WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:27.000 I don't know if I... I might have asked a variation of this, but is there something 00:27.000 --> 00:33.000 with the Atari where you saw something else and you might have said, I really 00:33.000 --> 00:38.680 wish my Atari could do that. I really wish my Atari had that ability. Yeah, there 00:38.680 --> 00:43.640 there was. I mean, I was jealous of Telegard because it had a lot more power, 00:43.640 --> 00:48.480 especially back when I was running the system called Mitchtron, which was 00:48.480 --> 00:56.280 absolutely un-customizable. You couldn't change it if you tried. So I was jealous 00:56.280 --> 01:01.320 of that, and later on there was a technology that emerged for the ST that 01:01.320 --> 01:07.240 was the most amazing thing on earth. It basically let you run cartoons on your 01:07.240 --> 01:12.900 computer, like, kind of really elaborate animations that looked good as your 01:12.900 --> 01:19.760 BBS system. But I didn't have enough hard drive space or memory to run that, so that 01:19.760 --> 01:28.320 didn't come to pass. You know, did you get, I mean, during your BBS days, did you get 01:28.320 --> 01:34.480 up past 1,200? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. All right. I mean, don't insult me. I got all the way 01:34.480 --> 01:43.360 to 24. But I was always 3 lowercase o, lowercase o, slash 12 lowercase o, lowercase o, 01:43.360 --> 01:48.400 slash 24 lowercase o, lowercase o, because I remembered the early days when I 01:48.400 --> 01:53.280 wasn't allowed on to some boards, because I didn't have high enough baud rate. 01:53.280 --> 01:58.480 Do you understand their position, or do you think they were just being dumb? 01:58.480 --> 02:04.120 No, they were jerks, because it was all about wares to them, whereas to me it was 02:04.120 --> 02:10.720 about character. And you always ran it on its own line, right? Or did you 02:10.720 --> 02:16.600 actually do it part-time? Yeah. No, I always had my own line for both my boards. 02:16.600 --> 02:23.080 Did you ever deal with a part-time BBS? Yes, but usually not for long. You know, it 02:23.080 --> 02:27.120 only takes a few calls to someone's mother in the middle of the night before you 02:27.120 --> 02:31.840 give up. You realize you can't keep track of their schedule. 02:37.160 --> 02:41.800 Coming back to that last question, I can remember that when I was calling other 02:41.800 --> 02:46.640 people's boards before I ever developed my own board, some of them had themes, and 02:46.640 --> 02:51.880 I was pretty impressed by that. Like, one of the BBS that I called was called the 02:51.880 --> 02:58.360 Stupid BBS, and it was run by a sysop named Weird Al, and everything on the 02:58.360 --> 03:03.600 board had something to do with Weird Al, or a Weird Al song, or UHF, and then 03:03.600 --> 03:09.120 there was another one called The Wall of Rock, and everything on there had 03:09.120 --> 03:14.200 something to do with Pink Floyd, and I was like, this is pretty awesome. So my friends 03:14.200 --> 03:21.440 and I all, on our BBSes, we always had themes, but we rotated ours every week, 03:21.440 --> 03:30.080 and we would usually, on all of our boards, like six or seven different boards, 03:30.080 --> 03:35.800 we'd run the same theme at the same time. So for example, we'd have Depressed Week 03:35.800 --> 03:44.600 on the BBSes, and then Apathy Week, and then, you know, Terror Week, and we would 03:44.600 --> 03:50.160 just basically recustomize everything on a BBS that's customizable to fit the 03:50.160 --> 03:54.680 theme. Did that work out for you? I mean, was that something... It amused us greatly, 03:54.680 --> 04:02.400 yes. But, I mean, do you think the users appreciated your work? Ah, the users. 04:02.400 --> 04:07.560 Can I ask you what your parents thought about you needing to get your online 04:07.560 --> 04:12.720 instead of a BBS, or being involved at all? Did they pay for that? I mean, it must have 04:12.720 --> 04:16.720 cost a bunch to get it installed. No, I paid for it. Yeah? Yeah, so they didn't have a K. 04:16.720 --> 04:20.640 But they had no compunctions about you being in that community like they do 04:20.640 --> 04:30.600 with girls? They were concerned once they found out that I was occasionally 04:30.600 --> 04:35.800 dabbled in freeking. But other than that, they didn't care. 04:35.800 --> 04:45.320 The... I mean, did you learn to drive at a regular time? I mean, 16 and everything? 04:45.320 --> 04:53.240 No, later. Later? Yeah, like 18 or 19. So I mean, did you... I mean, do you think you 04:53.240 --> 04:58.640 were living, as they might say, unbalanced because of it? I mean, did you not do 04:58.640 --> 05:01.560 other things because of BBSes, or did you get to do things that you wouldn't have 05:01.560 --> 05:06.520 done without BBSes? Oh, I definitely did things I wouldn't have done without BBSes. 05:06.520 --> 05:12.640 Like, most people in my suburb never went to the city, whereas I went all the 05:12.640 --> 05:19.200 time, because that's where I met the other losers. So I got to like city 05:19.200 --> 05:28.960 living. And that was also where I met my first friends that had cars, because unlike 05:28.960 --> 05:38.240 most people my age, I had friends who were over 20. And I mean, yeah, I would 05:38.240 --> 05:44.600 say it created more opportunities than it prevented. I don't think it retarded my 05:44.600 --> 05:51.080 growth socially. It just maybe pushed it in a weird direction. So you wouldn't 05:51.080 --> 05:58.040 change it, say? Oh no, no, definitely not. You know, if you had to explain to somebody who 05:58.040 --> 06:03.720 had never been on a BBS, what the draw of them was, what would you say was the draw? 06:03.720 --> 06:17.280 I guess the opportunity to talk with a bunch of people who you would probably 06:17.280 --> 06:24.280 never have any reason to talk to in a regular situation. Like people separated 06:24.280 --> 06:27.880 from you by several generations, people from neighborhoods you would never 06:27.880 --> 06:36.280 otherwise go into, cities you've never been to, people way richer or poorer than 06:36.280 --> 06:42.960 you. Basically, instead of all your friends being from your class in high 06:42.960 --> 06:48.480 school, you could be friends with anyone in your area code who had access to a 06:48.480 --> 06:57.840 computer or a side area code if you're ambitious. For me, the appeal was, I 06:57.840 --> 07:03.840 thought the most amazing thing was that you were yourself. The school that I went 07:03.840 --> 07:11.040 to from nursery school through senior year of high school was a private school 07:11.040 --> 07:15.840 that was about a hundred people in each class. And by the time I graduated, I had 07:15.840 --> 07:20.920 known about 50 of those people since I was 3. So their opinions of me when I was 07:20.920 --> 07:28.640 3 were the opinions they had of me when I was 18. And when I was 14, realizing 07:28.640 --> 07:33.000 that I could enter an environment where I wasn't prejudged and where I wasn't 07:33.000 --> 07:38.000 going to be judged on being a girl or what I was wearing or, you know, if I was 07:38.000 --> 07:42.720 fat or anything that we make snap judgments about every five seconds when 07:42.720 --> 07:46.720 we decide whether or not we're going to talk to someone or ignore them out in the 07:46.720 --> 07:51.480 real world if we're at work or whatever, those things were all gone. I mean, I 07:51.480 --> 07:55.400 think that I am so comfortable with myself now because I was given an 07:55.400 --> 08:01.840 environment where it was completely safe to be myself and not have to run that 08:01.840 --> 08:07.640 obstacle course that you run, especially as a teenager. And to me, meeting a bunch 08:07.640 --> 08:11.000 of people when I was 14 that thought I was awesome when I had been going to 08:11.000 --> 08:14.000 school with a bunch of people that thought I was lame, you know, it was 08:14.000 --> 08:17.400 probably the most important thing that happened to me in terms of who I became, 08:17.400 --> 08:21.720 in terms of, you know, validating the stuff in me that that was natural and 08:21.720 --> 08:26.720 that I thought was good. You know, finding people that thought I was funny or 08:26.720 --> 08:30.120 worth talking to you was a pretty big difference. 08:30.120 --> 08:36.160 So for you, BBS's were a positive experience? 08:36.160 --> 08:42.440 Well, yeah, of course. Are you interviewing any people that have a different take on that? 08:42.440 --> 08:47.640 Um, I've interviewed people and asked them what I consider to be softball questions 08:47.640 --> 08:52.440 that have elicited unusual answers. 08:54.440 --> 09:01.760 There were some people I met at BBS meets and stuff like that and once I'd met them, 09:01.760 --> 09:08.280 we weren't as close as we'd been before. For example, one of my closest ups, who 09:08.280 --> 09:14.600 naturally, I had made a closest up because she was a girl and as it turned 09:14.600 --> 09:20.840 out, he was a guy. I didn't like him as much after that. 09:20.840 --> 09:26.560 The romance just didn't fly like you had hoped it was. You tried to make it work, it just didn't work. 09:26.560 --> 09:33.320 I don't think I'd really been romantically attracted, but I had thought the idea of 09:33.320 --> 09:38.440 communicating with a girl was pretty radical. 09:38.440 --> 09:43.840 I seem to remember that the way it went was I would be signing up and I would enter that I was female 09:43.840 --> 09:47.560 and then suddenly I'd be in chat mode. 09:47.560 --> 09:49.400 I don't have that chat mode. 09:49.400 --> 09:52.560 The syshop is breaking into chat. 09:52.560 --> 09:57.000 Type F again. That turns me on. 09:57.000 --> 10:00.080 You didn't miss type, did you? 10:00.080 --> 10:07.480 My mom was of course, she's very protective, but she was quite suspicious of me being involved in these things. 10:07.480 --> 10:13.800 She didn't mind me being online or anything, but she was worried about when it came down to real life people meeting me. 10:13.800 --> 10:19.320 Of course, she was convinced that if somebody found out my name and address, they were probably an axe murderer. 10:19.320 --> 10:20.360 That's true, actually. 10:20.360 --> 10:28.280 Yeah, I know. So when it came time to first start meeting people, I was 14, I didn't have a car. 10:28.280 --> 10:31.320 They all lived at least 40 miles away. 10:31.320 --> 10:37.640 And I said, Mom, Dad, can I have a ride to the suburbs? I want to meet some friends. 10:37.640 --> 10:43.960 And in order to even go, she made me type up a list of everyone who was going to be in attendance, 10:43.960 --> 10:50.000 their name, their full name, their age, their phone number, their address, and what their occupation was. 10:50.000 --> 10:56.640 Presumably in case she needed to give all those bits of information to the authorities when I didn't turn up. 10:56.640 --> 11:02.240 One of my friends was a filmmaker at the time. He's working in Hollywood now. 11:02.240 --> 11:09.440 I said, Oh, you know, my friend Eric makes movies. What kind of movies? 11:09.440 --> 11:18.400 So it was a struggle. But once she met them and realized that they were sort of the opposite of... 11:18.400 --> 11:22.000 Not that they weren't interested in girls, but they were hardly creepy old men. 11:22.000 --> 11:31.120 They were more like developmentally retarded young boys. She wasn't scared anymore. 11:31.120 --> 11:34.800 Just sad you had to get this 40 miles away as opposed to... 11:34.800 --> 11:39.920 Well, yeah, but that was how it ended up being. But because of that, I mean, yeah, you had to come to the city. 11:39.920 --> 11:42.960 That's great. I had to go to the suburbs. 11:42.960 --> 11:46.000 I got, well, let's go to the mall. Not too good. 11:46.000 --> 11:51.040 But I also did meet up with a lot of people who drove and a lot of people who knew a lot of places. 11:51.040 --> 11:57.520 And I had a much more active social life, I think, than I would have if I hadn't met those people. 11:57.520 --> 12:03.520 I know that. Some of it was really lame, but it's fun. 12:03.520 --> 12:11.360 My friends and I always referred to ourselves as geeks, and we referred to the act of using BBSs as geeking. 12:11.360 --> 12:17.680 But in spite of that, I think we thought we were cooler than everyone, you know, in our own way. 12:17.680 --> 12:21.680 It never mutated into G-E-Q-I-N-G, did it? 12:21.680 --> 12:22.160 No. 12:22.160 --> 12:29.120 Excellent. Just being short. I won't have to erase the tape and shoot you. 12:29.120 --> 12:37.120 Well, because you know how things are. You can watch something slowly mutate along the different groups until eventually it's... 12:37.120 --> 12:44.480 Like, for instance, the whole recent Juarez thing, which a lot of people think is... 12:44.480 --> 12:56.240 I actually had a guy tell me that Juarez was a reference to an 18th century Spanish pirate, which was where they had gotten it from. 12:56.240 --> 13:00.800 I was like, okay. That's incredible. 13:00.800 --> 13:02.400 That's really good. 13:02.400 --> 13:09.760 And you're like, I don't even want to really burst that mythology. That's really good. That's a good one. 13:09.760 --> 13:12.960 And that'll be the one that's the best of course. 13:12.960 --> 13:17.760 No, it's true, actually. He was famous for his UL, the L ratio. 13:17.760 --> 13:23.760 Yeah, that's right. His ratio with four R's. R-R-R ratio. 13:23.760 --> 13:33.520 Did you... I mean, you ever heard of Leech Z-Modem? 13:33.520 --> 13:39.920 Z-Modem? No. Leech was just an online game for us. 13:39.920 --> 13:45.760 But in the old days, they had to do it the old-fashioned way and call you at your house and threaten you. 13:45.760 --> 13:52.480 Ask more questions. 13:52.480 --> 13:53.760 Okay, fine. 13:53.760 --> 13:59.120 Sorry. I'm getting excited again and we're probably only going to do this tape. 13:59.120 --> 14:03.280 I don't have a problem with a five minute third tape. Don't worry about that. 14:03.280 --> 14:10.880 Like I told him, these tapes cost me five bucks for an hour. So we can blow a Lincoln on it. 14:10.880 --> 14:16.400 Or five loonies. 14:16.400 --> 14:26.720 In terms of the user community that you were a part of, were there any highlights that you can think of? 14:26.720 --> 14:31.760 That were things where stuff was happening and you look back and you say, well, that was a really good... 14:31.760 --> 14:38.320 Like in other words, you might have a certain... There might be a peak, you might say, or some event where you're like, 14:38.320 --> 14:41.760 and we had this event, we normally never did this, and this was incredible. 14:41.760 --> 14:50.160 Is there anything like that that you can think of or any sort of a contest or an interbord war or just any kind of highlight? 14:50.160 --> 14:55.040 I can think of a thousand stories that answer that question. You want to go first? 14:55.040 --> 14:57.440 I can't think of any golden age, so you shoot. 14:57.440 --> 15:02.480 Well, we had golden ages. I mean, we had what we called the golden age of text files, 15:02.480 --> 15:10.960 which was back when text files were the best thing that you could possibly have on PBS. 15:10.960 --> 15:16.880 Like, they were better than wares, and they were better than messages, certainly, or games. 15:16.880 --> 15:25.040 But there was a time when people were just competing to see how many text files they could have, and of what quality. 15:25.040 --> 15:31.520 And we were all writing stories and other silliness like crazy, 15:31.520 --> 15:37.600 and everyone would try and upload at least a story a day to some boards, including mine. 15:37.600 --> 15:43.840 And that was a really great time. That was when I started thinking of myself as a writer, 15:43.840 --> 15:46.960 and I think a lot of the other people I knew the same thing. 15:46.960 --> 15:49.200 Did you keep any of them? 15:49.200 --> 15:52.320 Yeah, yeah. I have hundreds of them. 15:52.320 --> 16:04.480 And did you... obviously we have to phrase and answer carefully, but do you continue to use those skills? 16:04.480 --> 16:16.480 Yeah, yeah. I still make zines. One of the zines I publish is called Yip, and I'm a writer slash editor as my job. 16:16.480 --> 16:23.280 And you would say, I mean, was it a case that the BBS fomented this for you? I mean, it sounds like it did. 16:23.280 --> 16:30.160 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, communication for me is writing. 16:30.160 --> 16:34.880 And I'm basically translating things into words in order to speak, 16:34.880 --> 16:42.480 but I think I usually see the ASCII in the air and then pronounce it. 16:42.480 --> 16:49.600 Do you find that people... you know, nowadays, when you talk and deal with people who are online 16:49.600 --> 16:56.000 or come to your websites and so on, I mean, ostensibly you talk to some amount with people 16:56.000 --> 17:10.000 who are of a more recent vintage online. Do you find them worse off for having not gone through BBSes first or better off? 17:10.000 --> 17:20.000 They're worse off, yeah. They have my sympathy because they missed out on something that was really good 17:20.000 --> 17:23.520 and something I don't really understand why it ended. 17:23.520 --> 17:31.200 It was a different experience back when everyone was in the same area code and nobody was... 17:31.200 --> 17:37.440 I mean, broadly speaking, nobody was in it for the money. Everyone was in it because they loved it. 17:37.440 --> 17:45.200 And everyone was figuring it out at the same time, I think. 17:45.200 --> 17:49.360 Yeah, basically, I mean, if you called the BBS, it was hard to deny that you were doing it 17:49.360 --> 17:55.840 for the purpose of making friends, whereas I think a relatively small percentage of internet users 17:55.840 --> 18:00.720 would say that's the main reason they use the internet. 18:00.720 --> 18:05.680 I mean, they would say it's to communicate with friends or relatives or to do business or 18:05.680 --> 18:09.840 to find out about products they can buy and stuff like that. 18:09.840 --> 18:13.040 But not many people would say, yeah, I want to make friends. 18:13.040 --> 18:17.760 Also, to download more porn in one evening than the total size of all communication on BBS is an 84. 18:17.760 --> 18:25.200 Yeah, but this modern porn, it's crap. It doesn't match up to the old ASCII stuff. 18:25.200 --> 18:25.760 That was... 18:25.760 --> 18:27.200 Like the ASCII boobs? 18:27.200 --> 18:34.240 The ASCII boobs are awesome. 18:34.240 --> 18:38.880 Yeah. 18:38.880 --> 18:44.240 Yeah, actually, I have a number of... I was actually busted when I was 12 for selling ASCII 18:44.240 --> 18:47.920 pornography in my school. 18:47.920 --> 18:53.840 Wow, what a thing to go to prison for. 18:53.840 --> 18:55.360 That was a great time. 18:55.360 --> 18:56.720 Was it yours? 18:56.720 --> 18:58.800 No, I was actually a reseller. 18:58.800 --> 19:00.800 You had ASCII children, is it? 19:00.800 --> 19:06.240 No, no, no. It was digitized Playboy. 19:06.240 --> 19:10.240 Oh, times were good. Well, that's the thing. I mean, at the time, one of the things that you 19:10.240 --> 19:15.200 notice is there's stuff there that's... One thing which I'm trying to pull out of people, 19:15.200 --> 19:21.760 which is a bit of a pain, is the difference in what represented precious currency back then 19:21.760 --> 19:23.280 compared to now. 19:23.280 --> 19:28.160 I think I achieved co-sys op status on a lot of boards by just writing good messages and 19:28.160 --> 19:34.480 uploading good stories. That made me a desirable user in some quarters, which was strange. 19:34.480 --> 19:36.560 Probably would never happen now. 19:36.560 --> 19:42.080 A particularly good writer that earns you credit, that earns you space in a place. 19:42.080 --> 19:50.560 And a place that says, you are so good at writing, we want you to help run it. 19:50.560 --> 19:58.480 But even beyond that, I've wanted to get on tape people's opinions of things like hardware 19:58.480 --> 20:01.600 conflict, this versus that. 20:01.600 --> 20:07.280 I had a base devoted to it on my BDS, which I personally didn't read. 20:07.280 --> 20:13.360 And it's funny, because now everyone I talk to, every single person pretty much goes, 20:13.360 --> 20:18.880 eh, it was just a bunch of crap. And it's so sad. It's like interviewing a bunch of World War II 20:18.880 --> 20:23.760 veterans all going, eh, we shouldn't have had that battle. You want to tell me about it? Eh, no. 20:23.760 --> 20:25.840 Germans weren't so bad. 20:25.840 --> 20:29.840 Germans in the left, we've really come to terms since then. It's okay. You don't get any details. 20:29.840 --> 20:34.960 You don't get any of the... I actually had a guy who I interviewed who was... 20:34.960 --> 20:42.960 They were on a quest to destroy the local de-dial. They were against the de-dial. 20:42.960 --> 20:47.840 And on camera, one of them mentioned to the other, how he's like, yeah, I never really 20:47.840 --> 20:53.200 mentioned this, but I kind of went to one of the gatherings at one point to meet this girl. 20:53.200 --> 20:57.920 What? You traitor! And it's just a beautiful little moment. 20:57.920 --> 21:02.080 I asked him why he took his BBS down, and that was because his girlfriend wanted to call him 21:02.080 --> 21:07.440 at night, and he couldn't use the main one. And he just went, girlfriend, BBS. 21:07.440 --> 21:10.080 And that was the end of his BBS. 21:10.080 --> 21:12.160 Why didn't you just get her a modem? 21:12.160 --> 21:15.040 Well, I don't think that they... I don't think she related to the modem at all. 21:16.240 --> 21:17.600 Yeah, that's right. 21:17.600 --> 21:18.000 Weird. 21:18.000 --> 21:18.320 Weird. 21:19.520 --> 21:23.040 She didn't like it, sorry. Don't like your motorcycle? And you sell the motorcycle instead 21:23.040 --> 21:28.320 of buying her a helmet? I like this, because she can type really fast, and then later on, 21:28.320 --> 21:30.720 I noticed she was pretty. So, she's pretty good. 21:33.440 --> 21:36.080 Yeah, that's right. What are your measurements? 70, 80 words per minute? 21:43.760 --> 21:49.360 Do you see anything online on the web at this point that parkens you back to BBSes? 21:49.360 --> 21:51.360 Pyroto? 21:51.360 --> 22:00.480 Pyroto was the big hope. I mean, Pyroto was probably my best experience in all of BBSing. 22:00.480 --> 22:06.560 It was totally addictive and wonderful. And when I saw that that was coming back to the web, 22:06.560 --> 22:11.920 I was like, good, I'll quit my job, spend my days playing Pyroto. 22:12.880 --> 22:16.400 But it turned out to not be as good as it used to be. 22:16.400 --> 22:19.520 Yeah. It's not the same on the web. 22:22.480 --> 22:30.240 Tim contends that, of course, or contests that, I should say, about its quality now versus then. 22:30.880 --> 22:34.560 He has an impression, as he put it, he thought that a golden age 22:34.560 --> 22:38.400 for people represents the first six months they were online. 22:40.240 --> 22:40.480 No. 22:40.480 --> 22:42.960 Oh, no, probably not. 22:42.960 --> 22:43.360 I would. 22:43.360 --> 22:47.040 I would like to delete any record of that that may exist. 22:48.000 --> 22:50.000 Yeah, we'll just hurl that comment of Tim. 22:54.320 --> 23:02.480 No. The first BBS I called was called Cybersquid. That was the first one I logged into successfully. 23:05.600 --> 23:09.920 At that time, I was the stupidest person on Earth. 23:09.920 --> 23:16.480 And they happened to have a very complete archive on that BBS. 23:17.040 --> 23:21.520 So later on, when I was sort of the senior user on the BBS, 23:21.520 --> 23:25.280 everyone really liked to occasionally quote my first message back to me. 23:26.000 --> 23:28.240 Hello. How does this work? All caps. 23:30.000 --> 23:33.680 Oh, so you actually could, I mean, ostensibly, 23:33.680 --> 23:36.800 you could actually recall and deal with your first message. 23:37.840 --> 23:39.440 Oh, yeah. I remember my first message clearly. 23:39.440 --> 23:43.280 I was like, I don't know how this thing works, but my sisters and I are going to get some pizza. 23:43.920 --> 23:47.440 I mean, these words were tossed back at my face on many occasions. 23:50.640 --> 23:54.080 I read that at one of my speeches, I read a message. 23:55.200 --> 23:57.200 When you answer the trivia question correctly, 23:57.200 --> 23:59.520 you got to write a message that all the users could see. 24:00.320 --> 24:07.280 And I wrote a message and I still, I just, and I read it out loud, this thing, 24:07.280 --> 24:12.560 and I read it, and at the end, I just said, and that was me when I was 13. 24:12.560 --> 24:20.400 You can just imagine, you got me credit cards, that bold, idiotic approach of just, 24:20.400 --> 24:23.600 I just need a number and then I can order anything I want. 24:23.600 --> 24:25.760 And it was like a bunch of that, in that thing. 24:25.760 --> 24:28.880 I can do anything I want to. I'm smart. You all suck. 24:28.880 --> 24:37.360 You all suck. And that just comes from growing up while being online, PBS, 24:37.360 --> 24:43.440 and you see the maturity level increases. 24:46.800 --> 24:51.200 So for you, there's not really a thing that you look at now that reminds you of PBS. 24:52.720 --> 24:55.360 The closest thing would be a mailing list. 24:55.360 --> 25:04.160 But yeah, a mailing list is a lot different. They're usually a huge geographic variety, 25:04.160 --> 25:08.560 and like the chances of everyone on the mailing list getting together are usually pretty slim. 25:08.560 --> 25:12.000 Regional newsgroups maybe, but they're all divided by topic. 25:12.000 --> 25:15.840 So you don't get that different glimpses of people's personalities 25:15.840 --> 25:18.960 as they post to the music board or the general board or whatever. 25:19.600 --> 25:24.560 You just know that, you know, they eat out or they fix computers or whatever. 25:24.560 --> 25:27.760 And usually the medium doesn't have any personality of its own. 25:27.760 --> 25:29.680 It's only the people who are there. 25:29.680 --> 25:34.560 Whereas with PBS, you are at the BBS, effectively. 25:35.440 --> 25:42.800 It sounds to me like you have a belief that the environment that people interact in 25:43.600 --> 25:46.880 should play a part in the conversations. 25:48.560 --> 25:49.280 That sounds like a... 25:51.040 --> 25:52.400 Yeah, I would say that. 25:52.400 --> 25:56.240 I'm hearing it from you that it's not just a matter of that there should be a BBS where 25:56.240 --> 25:57.120 people post on. 25:57.120 --> 26:04.560 There should be a BBS, and the BBS software itself should take an active role in getting people... 26:04.560 --> 26:06.400 Well, I don't only miss the people. 26:06.400 --> 26:07.600 The people are still around. 26:07.600 --> 26:10.160 I'm still friends with the majority of them. 26:10.160 --> 26:17.840 But I miss BBSing, which you can't do anymore, really. 26:17.840 --> 26:20.720 I mean, you can tell that to PBSes, but that's pretty pathetic. 26:20.720 --> 26:24.320 So you don't buy into the telnet BBSes? 26:25.120 --> 26:26.560 No, I don't think so. 26:26.560 --> 26:28.320 I don't think they're anything like BBSes were. 26:29.200 --> 26:35.840 They're usually very sparsely populated by people who live in different countries. 26:37.040 --> 26:37.840 It's not the same thing. 26:38.800 --> 26:41.280 You don't appreciate something if you never get a busy signal. 26:42.000 --> 26:42.960 That's true. 26:42.960 --> 26:47.600 I think that was one of the biggest downsides of Pyroto when it went to the web. 26:47.600 --> 26:49.200 You could always get on. 26:49.200 --> 26:51.040 That sucked. 26:51.040 --> 26:56.160 Part of the thing with Pyroto, when me and my friends were making a big move on Pyroto, 26:56.880 --> 27:00.000 we'd be like, okay, I'm going to log off in one minute. 27:00.000 --> 27:10.000 You have to get ready to autodial in ten, nine, and then stay on for exactly three hours. 27:10.640 --> 27:11.920 That's when I can call again. 27:11.920 --> 27:21.520 Okay, so for you, the lack of convenience was part of the quality. 27:21.520 --> 27:22.000 Oh, yeah. 27:23.520 --> 27:28.720 When there's a limitless supply of Pyroto, then it doesn't seem quite as precious. 27:28.720 --> 27:34.800 But when you are only allowed one call every 12 hours and you're not even sure if you can 27:34.800 --> 27:42.240 get through, and if there's some line noise and you accidentally get hung up on your idle lock, 27:42.240 --> 27:43.920 it makes it pretty sweet while you're there. 27:44.720 --> 27:50.720 So for you, it sounds like Pyroto would have been between a rock and a hard place 27:51.680 --> 27:55.680 to maintain you as a user because they couldn't stay with BBSs. 27:56.320 --> 28:00.320 It sounds like there would have been inherent flaws in the web setup. 28:01.280 --> 28:04.000 Is there a way they could have done it in a way that you would have liked? 28:04.000 --> 28:06.240 Yes. 28:06.240 --> 28:08.960 I won't ask you to give out a full critique. 28:08.960 --> 28:10.480 Okay, so there is something. 28:10.480 --> 28:17.280 It's not just a, I mean, it's new and I don't like it and I can't tell you why. 28:17.280 --> 28:18.160 Oh, no, no, no. 28:18.160 --> 28:20.480 It's pretty easy to quantify. 28:20.480 --> 28:28.880 They could have just said, you know, you can only call once every 24 hours or something like that. 28:28.880 --> 28:29.520 But they didn't. 28:29.520 --> 28:33.840 They, you can pretty much stay online all day with WebPyroto. 28:33.840 --> 28:36.640 You have to just keep, just keep delivering, get your pill. 28:37.680 --> 28:44.240 Yeah, the, I mean, the crucial difference between Pyroto then and WebPyroto now and 28:44.240 --> 28:53.920 BBSs versus websites is it became about banner ads instead of a social experiment. 28:53.920 --> 29:02.320 Oh, so you, it sounds like for you, like the thing that doesn't get, I mean, I look back 29:02.320 --> 29:04.400 on BBSs and I remember pay BBSs. 29:04.400 --> 29:06.240 I remember BBSs with ads on them. 29:06.240 --> 29:06.800 I remember. 29:07.520 --> 29:08.080 Ads? 29:08.080 --> 29:08.960 Sure. 29:08.960 --> 29:10.720 That's how I think of diversidiles actually. 29:11.520 --> 29:14.480 Diversidiles always used to have ads as I, as I use them. 29:14.480 --> 29:16.160 Ads for what? 29:16.160 --> 29:24.080 Whatever, the, the, the thing, the, the diversidile itself, local vendors, 29:24.080 --> 29:25.280 software that was being sold. 29:25.920 --> 29:26.240 Whoa. 29:27.200 --> 29:27.440 Yeah. 29:27.440 --> 29:27.920 See the diversidile? 29:27.920 --> 29:32.080 We interrupt your chat to tell you this and you would go, buh. 29:32.640 --> 29:34.320 No, that would, that would make sense. 29:34.320 --> 29:38.640 I guess if it was a real name board, but the details I called were purely social and there 29:38.640 --> 29:41.120 was no, there was no advertising of any kind. 29:41.120 --> 29:43.200 There was, it wasn't about being on a computer. 29:43.200 --> 29:44.400 It was about talking to people. 29:44.400 --> 29:50.480 The slush ends were all song lyrics or what someone was wearing or some really incredibly 29:50.480 --> 29:52.960 pithy thought that some nine year old had that day. 29:54.720 --> 30:00.000 I don't remember ever seeing an ad except for a BBS or a hacking group. 30:01.120 --> 30:07.680 Now, did you, um, when, when, when, now there was a period of time from like late 89 onward 30:07.680 --> 30:16.000 when BBS software starts getting four color ads in newspapers and starts getting boxes 30:16.000 --> 30:19.120 and starts selling for 500 or a thousand dollars. 30:19.600 --> 30:24.480 Granted, there are hundreds of free ones, but I'm saying there's a sudden attempt to 30:24.480 --> 30:28.080 make it pay, to make it legitimate, to make it, uh, an industry. 30:28.560 --> 30:32.160 I mean, did you, were you cognizant of that or was that just something happening off in 30:32.160 --> 30:32.960 the distance? 30:32.960 --> 30:35.120 That was not on my radar personally. 30:35.120 --> 30:38.960 Uh, it was a huge deal when red rider became white night. 30:40.400 --> 30:43.840 That was when everyone sort of decided whether or not they were going with the, 30:44.480 --> 30:47.520 with the sellout or, or the Indy or whatever. 30:47.520 --> 30:50.640 Whether they're going to show up at Watson's house with a sock full of sand. 30:50.640 --> 30:50.960 Yeah. 30:50.960 --> 30:54.640 I mean, why, why are we going to pay all this money for something we've been enjoying 30:54.640 --> 30:55.920 that was fine for years? 30:55.920 --> 30:57.840 And why do you think it's so great? 30:57.840 --> 31:00.640 And I don't know, everyone switched to Z term, which was way better. 31:00.640 --> 31:04.080 So for you, you didn't buy in, you didn't think this was. 31:04.080 --> 31:07.520 I think I tried it, but it was no big deal. 31:07.520 --> 31:11.520 What was happening in the compression area was a little more interesting actually. 31:12.800 --> 31:16.880 And to some extent with, uh, what was it called? 31:16.880 --> 31:21.280 Point software and, uh, Fido net clients for the Mac that was getting commercialized as 31:21.280 --> 31:21.280 well. 31:21.280 --> 31:28.960 Uh, there were two kinds, I think, and that started out as free stuff. 31:28.960 --> 31:36.000 But then, then it became something that they actually tried to market as, uh, point software 31:36.000 --> 31:39.360 for Fido net, which, wow, there was no market there. 31:42.240 --> 31:47.440 Um, yeah, so I'm thinking of, I mean, were you, you were a part of Fido net? 31:47.440 --> 31:50.560 I was the moderator of echo Mac when I was 15. 31:52.160 --> 31:53.280 And you were not, I think. 31:55.280 --> 31:56.080 You used Fido net. 31:56.080 --> 31:57.200 I didn't help run it. 31:57.200 --> 32:05.120 I was there and that was a real experience because here I was 15 and here were these 32:05.120 --> 32:10.880 people, adults, supposedly calling me to complain about their personal relationships with one 32:10.880 --> 32:15.360 another on the, on the news group, which had nothing to do with posts about, you know, 32:16.080 --> 32:18.960 the new version of columns or whatever we were talking about. 32:19.760 --> 32:27.120 Uh, but I had, I had to manage this couple of sorts that one of them was in DC, one was 32:27.120 --> 32:28.160 in Palo Alto. 32:28.160 --> 32:29.280 They were grownups. 32:29.280 --> 32:34.480 They had apparently gone together at some point and had sex and now we're antagonizing 32:34.480 --> 32:36.320 one another across the news group. 32:36.320 --> 32:37.280 And here I am. 32:37.280 --> 32:40.240 I'm a freshman in high school and they're calling me on the phone. 32:40.240 --> 32:41.600 You've got to, you've got to make him stop. 32:41.600 --> 32:42.560 You got to ban him from the group. 32:42.560 --> 32:43.200 You got to do this. 32:43.200 --> 32:43.760 You got to do that. 32:45.840 --> 32:46.960 Real drama. 32:46.960 --> 32:50.640 Um, and I think that even the stuff that is supposed to be computer-based, you know, 32:50.640 --> 32:55.040 we're all people, so it all comes back down to the dynamics and the relationships. 32:55.040 --> 32:56.400 But that's why we went to. 32:56.400 --> 32:59.440 Now it had just been about, you know, bits and bytes. 32:59.440 --> 33:02.720 I don't think anybody, I don't think it would have captured anyone's heart. 33:03.600 --> 33:09.280 You didn't, uh, I mean, you didn't run a BBS, so you were a moderator on someone else's 33:09.280 --> 33:10.000 BBS, right? 33:10.000 --> 33:11.200 I was a point actually. 33:11.200 --> 33:12.000 No, you were a point. 33:12.000 --> 33:12.240 Okay. 33:12.240 --> 33:13.280 I was a point. 33:13.280 --> 33:13.600 Yep. 33:13.600 --> 33:15.920 I count that as being a BBS, just a very quiet one. 33:16.880 --> 33:17.440 All right. 33:17.440 --> 33:20.720 I mean, all I did was receive and send FidoNet messages, but. 33:21.360 --> 33:25.520 Well, that's something because getting out of the FidoNet for some people is a huge 33:25.520 --> 33:26.480 pain in the ass. 33:26.480 --> 33:27.120 Yeah. 33:27.120 --> 33:31.040 And you have to, you know, convince your, some, no, the way it is now or the way it 33:31.040 --> 33:37.200 was for a long time was you had to convince the hub to give you a number. 33:37.200 --> 33:37.440 Right. 33:38.480 --> 33:41.040 And some of them were not so nice about it. 33:41.040 --> 33:42.480 I guess it wasn't that popular. 33:42.480 --> 33:45.600 I think I was point two or point three, and I don't think there were many more than me. 33:46.880 --> 33:47.440 That net? 33:47.440 --> 33:47.760 Okay. 33:47.760 --> 33:48.000 Yep. 33:49.040 --> 33:51.920 Um, now what year is this that you're a? 33:51.920 --> 33:56.000 Uh, 1989, 1990. 33:56.000 --> 33:56.400 Okay. 33:57.040 --> 34:02.080 So you're, you're coming right off the tail end of the International FidoNet 34:02.080 --> 34:10.400 Association, the FNA, um, and, uh, things are still pretty jumping actually on FidoNet. 34:10.400 --> 34:10.880 Oh, yeah. 34:11.440 --> 34:12.240 Plenty going on. 34:12.880 --> 34:14.800 So for you, I mean, you liked FidoNet? 34:14.800 --> 34:19.760 I mean, did you, did you, I mean, ostensibly you stumbled upon it at some point. 34:19.760 --> 34:23.920 Sure. It was, uh, the way it tended to work on the couple of boards that I called that 34:23.920 --> 34:27.680 had it would be, you know, you got the regular news groups and then there are the FidoNet 34:27.680 --> 34:29.920 news groups or the message boards rather. 34:31.040 --> 34:31.280 Yeah. 34:31.280 --> 34:33.680 And in Toronto, there were also the IP net groups. 34:36.640 --> 34:38.480 I mean, you, you alternate. 34:39.520 --> 34:40.720 I don't know what's going on. 34:41.840 --> 34:46.960 You're, um, that's interesting to me because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking to Tom Jennings 34:46.960 --> 34:52.080 and, um, you know, Mr. Mr. Madrigal and I just ended up speaking to Fido news editor 34:52.080 --> 34:57.200 number 11 and I'm going to be speaking to Mr. Baker and Pozar and a bunch of people 34:57.200 --> 34:59.760 who are FidoNet architects. 34:59.760 --> 35:03.440 And I'm always interested what people's, what your reaction is when you first stumble 35:03.440 --> 35:04.400 upon FidoNet. 35:04.400 --> 35:06.240 That is to say, you're like, there's a what? 35:06.240 --> 35:07.600 Like when you see the door out. 35:07.600 --> 35:12.160 Well, just when you, just when you, just however, I mean, you, you go, there's a what? 35:12.160 --> 35:12.960 With what? 35:12.960 --> 35:13.520 Where? 35:13.520 --> 35:14.400 Doing what? 35:14.400 --> 35:17.040 Yeah, because most people are like, it's a BBS, it's a BBS. 35:17.040 --> 35:19.600 Oh, there's 30,000 BBSs. 35:19.600 --> 35:22.800 Not only it's a BBS, it's a BBS, but why is my BBS busy? 35:22.800 --> 35:25.280 Oh, because it pulls for news every four hours. 35:25.280 --> 35:25.600 What? 35:27.680 --> 35:29.520 The BBS is calling another BBS? 35:30.240 --> 35:30.480 Whoa. 35:33.520 --> 35:34.800 Yeah, I mean, I thought it was cool. 35:35.840 --> 35:42.640 Um, obviously it didn't have the appeal of the fact that you might have a lot more in 35:42.640 --> 35:48.000 common with the people because they're regional, but I just thought, oh, more topics. 35:48.960 --> 35:49.600 This is great. 35:50.720 --> 35:54.960 One of the, um, one of the, the FidoNet news editor who I interviewed told me that for 35:54.960 --> 35:58.320 him, one of the draws was, um, what's his name? 35:58.320 --> 35:59.520 Might've been actually the other guy. 35:59.520 --> 36:03.920 I interviewed 11 FidoNet people in one weekend in a category. 36:03.920 --> 36:07.120 But one of the ones, one of the ones they told me about, they loved about FidoNet was 36:07.120 --> 36:11.280 that you post something and the first people who responded would be near you. 36:11.280 --> 36:11.920 Right. 36:11.920 --> 36:14.640 The next people who responded to you would be sort of near you. 36:14.640 --> 36:18.000 And eventually people from around the world are going, yeah, I have this to say. 36:18.000 --> 36:23.680 So you had this very weird geographical wave feel to it because it would have, you know, 36:23.680 --> 36:28.800 locals would say something and then you'd get this wave of other folks. 36:28.800 --> 36:34.240 I'll tell you when I really felt cool was when it got back to me or I got an email, 36:34.240 --> 36:37.600 I guess, from a guy, uh, in Minneapolis who, 36:37.600 --> 36:42.400 now my father's, he had me at, at, at a later age, so he's, he had me when he was 44. 36:42.400 --> 36:45.120 So he had already done quite a bit with life. 36:45.120 --> 36:47.840 So here I am 15 and I'm moderating this group. 36:47.840 --> 36:49.760 I'm in charge of all these people basically. 36:49.760 --> 36:55.520 And, uh, this guy writes me, he says, I noticed, you know, that your name is, is such and such. 36:55.520 --> 36:57.680 Um, is this your dad? 36:57.680 --> 36:58.880 And I said, yeah. 36:58.880 --> 37:03.200 And he said, oh yeah, my, your dad was, uh, I was his first graduate student. 37:03.200 --> 37:11.040 I was his first graduate student. So my dad's very first graduate student, who's like 55, 37:12.160 --> 37:17.360 he's under me on this new scoop. I'm 15. 37:18.880 --> 37:20.080 That's pretty mind blowing. 37:21.280 --> 37:23.200 Forever subjugated to your family. 37:23.200 --> 37:23.700 Yeah. 37:25.040 --> 37:26.960 Be sure to fill them out, you know? 37:26.960 --> 37:27.460 Yeah. 37:28.080 --> 37:29.200 Just block all his posts. 37:29.200 --> 37:32.240 Yeah. Dad said you were a bit of a sucker. 37:32.240 --> 37:36.240 I'm out of here now. 37:36.240 --> 37:44.240 Um, and, uh, no, there, there are actually other nets that existed. 37:44.240 --> 37:46.240 I don't know if you dealt with any, did you deal with any? 37:46.240 --> 37:50.240 I'm, if you spit them out, I'll be able to ping you back. 37:50.240 --> 37:57.280 Ice net, there was, um, what were four net, there was rhyme, there was, um, um, 37:57.280 --> 38:02.400 um, there was a number of subnets, there was Nirvana net, there was, um, 38:04.240 --> 38:07.520 there's all these ones. I just wanted to see if there were any that you bumped into. 38:07.520 --> 38:08.160 Did you? 38:08.160 --> 38:12.640 Ice net sounds familiar. I didn't really care for the, the nets that much. 38:13.440 --> 38:17.280 Yes, they had more topics and some of those topics were interesting, but 38:18.160 --> 38:21.040 I wasn't all that interested in people I would never meet. 38:21.040 --> 38:26.080 So they have a real strong geographical sense from you, is what you're saying. 38:26.080 --> 38:32.080 I guess so. I don't know, it seems strange. I mean, I feel petty or something, but, um. 38:34.080 --> 38:36.080 There is no pettiness. 38:36.080 --> 38:44.080 But I was, I certainly liked the idea of talking to people across town more than, 38:44.080 --> 38:50.080 I mean, no, no, that's not even true because I thought it was really cool and really easy. 38:50.080 --> 38:56.080 When you could talk to somebody in the United States, especially if you could pull it off for free. 38:56.080 --> 39:08.080 Whew. But that had novelty value. Your friends or online friends were more interesting as a general rule. 39:08.080 --> 39:12.080 The news in the United States with the bad news is they're in Buffalo. 39:12.080 --> 39:22.080 Buffalo was exotic. Did you ever, did you ever do any cross country, like other, besides the United States, 39:22.080 --> 39:28.080 any European or that you remember with Fidos or was it just, you know. 39:28.080 --> 39:34.080 I don't remember anything like that. Like, you know, there were definitely cross country people, 39:34.080 --> 39:38.080 but not, I don't remember people in other countries. There may have been, but I don't really. 39:38.080 --> 39:42.080 I don't remember people in other countries. There may have been, but I don't really. 39:42.080 --> 39:44.080 I remember it making an impression on me. 39:44.080 --> 39:48.080 In terms of other outreaches, I think I called a long-distance BBS once. 39:48.080 --> 39:52.080 I think I probably called Penn and Teller's BBS. 39:52.080 --> 39:54.080 Yeah, it wasn't that good. 39:54.080 --> 39:56.080 No, it's not. 39:56.080 --> 39:58.080 And I laughed. 39:58.080 --> 40:02.080 It's great to call Penn and Teller's BBS, except A, Penn and Teller aren't there. 40:02.080 --> 40:06.080 And B, it's not exactly, it just was like, okay. 40:06.080 --> 40:10.080 Yeah, here's a funny board. Okay. Not that funny. Bye. 40:10.080 --> 40:15.080 Magic mofos, or I think what it would be. The mofo or the mofo BBS or something. 40:15.080 --> 40:18.080 I don't even remember. I just remember that it sort of sucked. 40:18.080 --> 40:22.080 I always think about interviewing them about it. And then A, they probably would say no. 40:22.080 --> 40:27.080 And B, I don't think they actually ran it. The impression I get is like, for instance, Penn's, 40:27.080 --> 40:31.080 like Teller's website is run by an assistant. You know what I mean? 40:31.080 --> 40:32.080 Probably. 40:32.080 --> 40:38.080 The impression they ever really, not like, you know, like Jerry Purnell, 40:38.080 --> 40:42.080 who you knew actually would do his own stuff, or those other guys were like that. 40:42.080 --> 40:46.080 Or Will Wheaton, who runs his website. He really runs his website, you can tell. 40:46.080 --> 40:50.080 It's not just like William Shatner's website, which is obviously run by a team. 40:50.080 --> 40:52.080 And that's a major deal. 40:52.080 --> 40:57.080 Or Gandalf. What's his name? 40:57.080 --> 40:59.080 Ian McKellen. 40:59.080 --> 41:02.080 Ian McKellen's webpage is so bad. You know, he's doing it. 41:02.080 --> 41:04.080 He didn't come up with that alias. 41:04.080 --> 41:06.080 It's terrible. Yeah. 41:06.080 --> 41:10.080 The guy, the only guy that's still using Gandalf, Serene McKellen. 41:10.080 --> 41:12.080 Oh, I think a lot of people are still using Gandalf. 41:12.080 --> 41:15.080 That's the best part. It's about how people are A, still using old handles, 41:15.080 --> 41:18.080 and B, think they're the first. 41:18.080 --> 41:20.080 Nobody would think they use Inspector Gadget. 41:20.080 --> 41:23.080 Oh, your name is Lieutenant Commander Data. 41:23.080 --> 41:27.080 Yeah, but these days they'll sign up to Hotmail or something. 41:27.080 --> 41:29.080 Exactly. 41:29.080 --> 41:34.080 Welcome. We suggest you use the handle Iceman8966. 41:34.080 --> 41:36.080 That's the best part. The best part is the number. 41:36.080 --> 41:40.080 Because the number is just that way of saying, you know, 41:40.080 --> 41:46.080 you are so not unique, we had to number you to make you fit in with the others. 41:46.080 --> 41:49.080 Yeah, I think that's what Microsoft is up to there. 41:49.080 --> 41:54.080 Please do not think you're special. 41:54.080 --> 41:57.080 I don't know. What else? Is there anything? 41:57.080 --> 42:00.080 I've been hitting you, like, you know, just random sucker punches 42:00.080 --> 42:03.080 all up and down your timeline. I haven't really... 42:03.080 --> 42:05.080 I took you away from your linearity. 42:05.080 --> 42:10.080 Is there something that's brewing or that comes to your mind? 42:10.080 --> 42:15.080 At some point along the way, I was thinking of telling you about 42:15.080 --> 42:23.080 some of the colonizing efforts where we tried to spread our particular take on BBSs. 42:23.080 --> 42:28.080 Sometimes through places that didn't really want it, like boards that were really PD 42:28.080 --> 42:36.080 or boards that were really pirate, and to adult BBSs, which in Toronto at least, 42:36.080 --> 42:39.080 or in my experience at least, were a later phenomenon. 42:39.080 --> 42:44.080 They weren't there when I started, and they came, unfortunately. 42:44.080 --> 42:51.080 But we not only tried to convert any board that showed any sign 42:51.080 --> 42:55.080 of having a touch of silliness or absurdity to it, 42:55.080 --> 43:00.080 we would also go to boards that we thought were too normal. 43:00.080 --> 43:03.080 Like, everyone there, including the Sysop, was too normal, 43:03.080 --> 43:09.080 and we engaged in an activity that we called Viking, which basically, 43:09.080 --> 43:14.080 we would try and overrun the board with our personality. 43:14.080 --> 43:18.080 Like, we would have a few dozen people, and we'd just go in, 43:18.080 --> 43:23.080 and we'd start talking to all the regulars, and, you know, 43:23.080 --> 43:27.080 they'd be, like, talking about, I don't know, whatever. 43:27.080 --> 43:35.080 Protocols or, I don't know, packets or something. 43:35.080 --> 43:40.080 Or wares, and we'd just reply something totally out of left field 43:40.080 --> 43:42.080 or something like that, and really engage them. 43:42.080 --> 43:45.080 And we were doing it sincerely, we weren't just doing it to make fun of them, 43:45.080 --> 43:50.080 but it was often pretty unwelcome. 43:50.080 --> 43:56.080 What, I mean, the corollary to that for details was called twitting. 43:56.080 --> 43:59.080 Somebody that was sort of a garbage user was called a twit. 43:59.080 --> 44:01.080 What garbage user? 44:01.080 --> 44:03.080 Well, I know you weren't trying to annoy, 44:03.080 --> 44:05.080 but you may have been perceived as that. 44:05.080 --> 44:07.080 But the people that were really sort of not really, 44:07.080 --> 44:10.080 you didn't really want them, and they called up to, 44:10.080 --> 44:13.080 I don't know why they even called, sometimes they called to antagonize, 44:13.080 --> 44:15.080 but other times they were just dumb. 44:15.080 --> 44:17.080 They were twits. 44:17.080 --> 44:21.080 I really like the sort of real social hierarchy on the D-dials, 44:21.080 --> 44:26.080 especially because there was commerce involved. 44:26.080 --> 44:31.080 As you were divided into subs, people who have a subscription, 44:31.080 --> 44:35.080 that is a hard bracket, and could stay on for an hour or whatever, 44:35.080 --> 44:37.080 and nones, and they were just called nones, 44:37.080 --> 44:40.080 which makes them sound, like, untouchable or something. 44:40.080 --> 44:44.080 They had nine minutes unless they had a friend online with a co, 44:44.080 --> 44:46.080 which is a pointy bracket. 44:46.080 --> 44:49.080 If you have your co on, you don't have to enter it, 44:49.080 --> 44:51.080 so you don't have to show that you're a co, 44:51.080 --> 44:55.080 but you sort of put on your cloak of co-ness, 44:55.080 --> 44:58.080 and then you can start fucking with shit. 44:58.080 --> 45:03.080 But the best twit that I remember was a guy who called both Chicago D-dials, 45:03.080 --> 45:06.080 and his name was Ressler, lowercase, 45:06.080 --> 45:09.080 and he never talked on the public channel to anyone, 45:09.080 --> 45:11.080 but he would log on, and within about a minute, 45:11.080 --> 45:14.080 every single person would have gotten a private message that said, 45:14.080 --> 45:17.080 do you like to wrestle? 45:17.080 --> 45:20.080 That's about all he had to say. 45:20.080 --> 45:25.080 And to this day, I don't know how many people were Ressler, 45:25.080 --> 45:28.080 but I think there was at least one genuine Ressler, 45:28.080 --> 45:31.080 and everyone hated him because they thought he was annoying. 45:31.080 --> 45:32.080 He took up a line. 45:32.080 --> 45:35.080 I mean, it's a big deal to be taking up a line if you're a waste of space. 45:35.080 --> 45:38.080 If you've got a six-line board, you've got people that want to come in, 45:38.080 --> 45:40.080 and you can't see for hours. 45:40.080 --> 45:44.080 So one time, I engaged Ressler in a pretty lengthy conversation 45:44.080 --> 45:46.080 beyond just whether I liked to wrestle, 45:46.080 --> 45:49.080 and I arranged to meet him, 45:49.080 --> 45:53.080 and because I had taken this interest in all these people in the suburbs, 45:53.080 --> 45:57.080 I had actually called Illinois Bell and ordered all the suburban phone books, 45:57.080 --> 45:59.080 and I asked him what suburb he lived in, 45:59.080 --> 46:02.080 and so I went and I found the phone book for that part of the city 46:02.080 --> 46:06.080 and looked up the address of a Dunkin' Donuts, 46:06.080 --> 46:08.080 and I told him that that was my house. 46:08.080 --> 46:10.080 Like, I just gave that address as my address, 46:10.080 --> 46:13.080 and I said, oh, go there on this day. We'll meet up, 46:13.080 --> 46:16.080 and I kind of wanted to go, 46:16.080 --> 46:19.080 but that wasn't really what I was up to. 46:19.080 --> 46:22.080 So the next time I saw him online, 46:22.080 --> 46:24.080 I found out he actually went because he says, 46:24.080 --> 46:28.080 where were you? I waited at the Dunkin' Donuts, 46:28.080 --> 46:31.080 and then it just hit me, oh, my God, maybe Ressler's really a real guy. 46:31.080 --> 46:34.080 He's not just, like, the best joke there ever was. 46:34.080 --> 46:37.080 I felt pretty bad, but I honestly thought he was 46:37.080 --> 46:40.080 one of the many villains that we already knew. 46:40.080 --> 46:44.080 Just, I mean, it's a pretty easy schtick. 46:44.080 --> 46:47.080 It's not too complicated, so I thought it was going to be, like, 46:47.080 --> 46:50.080 five big guys that would beat me up when I got there, 46:50.080 --> 46:53.080 so I didn't go, and then I thought maybe, wow, 46:53.080 --> 46:56.080 maybe it is just this really, really pathetic little guy 46:56.080 --> 46:59.080 who just likes to wrestle. 46:59.080 --> 47:01.080 Who likes to know if other people like to wrestle? 47:01.080 --> 47:03.080 Yeah, well, he was named Ressler. 47:03.080 --> 47:05.080 Well, maybe that's because he knew that's what, I mean, 47:05.080 --> 47:08.080 when you dress up as a cheese to attract mice, 47:08.080 --> 47:10.080 you don't really want to be a cheese. 47:10.080 --> 47:12.080 You just know that's what gets mice. 47:12.080 --> 47:14.080 So maybe he was just being Ressler 47:14.080 --> 47:16.080 because that's who wrestlers talk to. 47:16.080 --> 47:18.080 Wrestlers talk to wrestlers. 47:18.080 --> 47:20.080 No, that's totally true. 47:20.080 --> 47:24.080 Maybe he just wanted a guide. 47:24.080 --> 47:26.080 He wanted to enter the world of wrestling, 47:26.080 --> 47:28.080 and he didn't know where to start, 47:28.080 --> 47:31.080 but a wrestler would show him. 47:31.080 --> 47:36.080 No. 47:36.080 --> 47:39.080 I mean, I didn't frequent places where, 47:39.080 --> 47:41.080 I mean, I wasn't going out for wearers. 47:41.080 --> 47:43.080 Like, actually, one of the real name boards 47:43.080 --> 47:46.080 that I was on for years, 47:46.080 --> 47:49.080 I had no idea they had an elite section. 47:49.080 --> 47:51.080 I had no idea, and boy was I surprised 47:51.080 --> 47:54.080 because they talked a good talk on the main boards, 47:54.080 --> 47:56.080 a good talk about how bad piracy was, 47:56.080 --> 47:59.080 and then one day Chuck just says, 47:59.080 --> 48:01.080 you know what, I've given you more access. 48:01.080 --> 48:04.080 Boy was I surprised to find I could get any program 48:04.080 --> 48:07.080 I wanted on this board that I already had been 48:07.080 --> 48:09.080 in good standing on for years. 48:09.080 --> 48:11.080 It really blew me away, but I think maybe 48:11.080 --> 48:13.080 because I had acted like I wasn't interested 48:13.080 --> 48:16.080 and like I kind of was a goody-goody or something, 48:16.080 --> 48:18.080 I didn't have anything to do with that. 48:18.080 --> 48:21.080 But, you know, I knew people that, 48:21.080 --> 48:24.080 eventually later in high school did meet people 48:24.080 --> 48:26.080 like in classes that, you know, 48:26.080 --> 48:30.080 claimed to call Ripco and have card numbers 48:30.080 --> 48:32.080 and stuff like that, but I could tell by, 48:32.080 --> 48:34.080 you know, what jerks they were 48:34.080 --> 48:36.080 that it wasn't a place I wanted to be. 48:36.080 --> 48:38.080 And I didn't really believe in stealing 48:38.080 --> 48:40.080 from people's credit cards. 48:40.080 --> 48:43.080 Well, yeah, it's kind of a tough one to pull. 48:43.080 --> 48:44.080 Yeah. 48:44.080 --> 48:46.080 When that first number goes by and you're like, 48:46.080 --> 48:48.080 oh, what are you thinking? Oh, it's so bad. 48:48.080 --> 48:50.080 It's like the first time to her 48:50.080 --> 48:52.080 when she was up at the party. 48:52.080 --> 48:55.080 Oh, no, I'm going outside. I've got to go outside. 48:55.080 --> 48:57.080 You know, you're just like, okay, 48:57.080 --> 48:59.080 there's a threshold being crossed 48:59.080 --> 49:01.080 and I'm not going there and I'll be over here 49:01.080 --> 49:03.080 selling threshold T-shirts because I'm not going in. 49:05.080 --> 49:07.080 Back in the day before they came up with the, 49:07.080 --> 49:10.080 these are only for your backup rationalization, 49:10.080 --> 49:11.080 which I love. 49:11.080 --> 49:12.080 Oh, no. 49:12.080 --> 49:13.080 Oh, you have those? 49:13.080 --> 49:15.080 Me and my friends were using that from the very start. 49:15.080 --> 49:17.080 And every time we gave each other something, 49:17.080 --> 49:19.080 now, you know, buy this if you like it. 49:19.080 --> 49:20.080 Right. 49:20.080 --> 49:22.080 And absolutely say yes. 49:22.080 --> 49:23.080 Wow. 49:23.080 --> 49:25.080 But, you know, we did that. 49:25.080 --> 49:27.080 Now it's a game. I don't think we ever bought one. 49:27.080 --> 49:28.080 Right. 49:28.080 --> 49:30.080 Yeah, there's a, there's a, 49:30.080 --> 49:32.080 well, now there's a really interesting 49:32.080 --> 49:34.080 complicated series of, of, of, 49:34.080 --> 49:36.080 ah, ah, ah, ah. 49:36.080 --> 49:38.080 That level of legal, 49:38.080 --> 49:40.080 what do you call it, 49:40.080 --> 49:43.080 legal trickery that kids who don't, 49:43.080 --> 49:46.080 who barely understand the concept of, 49:46.080 --> 49:49.080 oh, say, the Bill of Rights or 49:49.080 --> 49:52.080 basic habeas corpus or anything like that 49:52.080 --> 49:56.080 will pull out this 18 paragraph thing 49:56.080 --> 49:58.080 that they think protects them. 49:58.080 --> 49:59.080 You know, that, that, that, 49:59.080 --> 50:01.080 I've seen that in the early 80s. 50:01.080 --> 50:03.080 They do that. 50:03.080 --> 50:05.080 You are aware you cannot be a member of law enforcement. 50:05.080 --> 50:06.080 And that being on here, 50:06.080 --> 50:08.080 if you're not a member of law enforcement, 50:08.080 --> 50:09.080 automatically... 50:09.080 --> 50:11.080 I believe the popular phrasing was, 50:11.080 --> 50:14.080 are you a cop? 50:14.080 --> 50:16.080 Why? 50:16.080 --> 50:19.080 Plus, plus, plus A-T-H. 50:19.080 --> 50:21.080 Are you a fed? 50:21.080 --> 50:22.080 Are you a fed? 50:22.080 --> 50:24.080 Are you a cop? 50:24.080 --> 50:26.080 Are you a fed? 50:26.080 --> 50:28.080 Yeah, that, that actually protected you completely. 50:28.080 --> 50:31.080 You could never be prosecuted if you had that on your safe. 50:31.080 --> 50:33.080 Is it before or after MRF? 50:33.080 --> 50:35.080 Like, hmm, 50:35.080 --> 50:37.080 I don't know about that one. 50:37.080 --> 50:39.080 Cause, cause, cause that's a, 50:39.080 --> 50:41.080 like, I could imagine the programming. 50:41.080 --> 50:43.080 It says, well, he's a cop, 50:43.080 --> 50:45.080 but it's a chick. 50:45.080 --> 50:46.080 Come on! 50:46.080 --> 50:47.080 Woohoo! 50:47.080 --> 50:48.080 Police woman! 50:48.080 --> 50:49.080 That's kind of hot, yeah. 50:49.080 --> 50:52.080 Dude, she's got a gun. 50:52.080 --> 50:55.080 I, I did call a board. 50:55.080 --> 50:57.080 There was one Yip BBS called Stellar Systems 50:57.080 --> 51:00.080 that was shut down by the RCMP. 51:00.080 --> 51:02.080 And the guy who ran it, 51:02.080 --> 51:03.080 Death Warden, you know, 51:03.080 --> 51:04.080 I considered him a good friend, 51:04.080 --> 51:06.080 but I never had his phone number. 51:06.080 --> 51:07.080 And that was in the days before email. 51:07.080 --> 51:10.080 So that was it. 51:10.080 --> 51:11.080 Never heard from him again. 51:11.080 --> 51:14.080 If you lost your modem, you lost all your friends. 51:14.080 --> 51:18.080 That was true with some girls I liked too. 51:18.080 --> 51:20.080 Like, their parents would get angry at them. 51:20.080 --> 51:22.080 They would confiscate their modem, 51:22.080 --> 51:24.080 and their relationship just sort of waited 51:24.080 --> 51:30.080 until they managed to sneak the modem back. 51:30.080 --> 51:33.080 The Montagues have taken away her own modem. 51:33.080 --> 51:37.080 Oh no, she's a Montague. 51:37.080 --> 51:42.080 She's a Montague when she's not elite. 51:42.080 --> 51:44.080 Yeah, my parents would never let me go out with anyone 51:44.080 --> 51:46.080 who didn't have one-day-old wares. 51:46.080 --> 51:48.080 That's right. 51:48.080 --> 51:50.080 Anyway, that's pretty much it for this tape. 51:50.080 --> 51:51.080 We're down under 30 seconds. 51:51.080 --> 51:52.080 Now, do we want to go to the third tape, 51:52.080 --> 51:54.080 or where do you feel? 51:54.080 --> 51:55.080 I think we've got a little more. 51:55.080 --> 51:56.080 Okay. 51:56.080 --> 51:57.080 We'll do that. 51:57.080 --> 51:58.080 Sure. 51:58.080 --> 51:59.080 I'm not bored. 51:59.080 --> 52:00.080 Yeah, I'm not bored either. 52:00.080 --> 52:01.080 I've got a little more for you. 52:01.080 --> 52:02.080 I'm not bored. 52:02.080 --> 52:03.080 I'm not tired. 52:03.080 --> 52:04.080 I'm not sitting there trying to drag stuff out again. 52:04.080 --> 52:05.080 Would you like a drink? 52:05.080 --> 52:06.080 Nah. 52:06.080 --> 52:07.080 Okay. 52:07.080 --> 52:17.080 We've got a couple more funny anecdotes.