WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:25.500 In the olden days, a pirate looked like this, and he stole treasure, jewelry, gold and silver. 00:25.500 --> 00:30.000 Nowadays, a pirate doesn't need a black eye patch, a sword or even a wooden leg. 00:30.000 --> 00:34.000 All you need is a floppy disk and maybe a little ingenuity. 00:34.000 --> 01:00.000 We'll take a look at software piracy coming up on The Computer Chronicles. 01:00.000 --> 01:04.000 The Computer Chronicles is brought to you in part by McGraw-Hill, 01:04.000 --> 01:08.500 publishers of Popular Computing, the magazine that gives readers an understanding 01:08.500 --> 01:22.000 of the technology and applications of microcomputers and software in office, home and classroom. 01:22.000 --> 01:25.500 Welcome to The Computer Chronicles. I'm Stuart Shiffey and this is Gary Kildall. 01:25.500 --> 01:28.000 And Gary, the subject today is software piracy. 01:28.000 --> 01:32.000 Gary, I know a guy who at home has this tremendous collection of software disks piled high, 01:32.000 --> 01:35.500 and he proudly boasts to me, I didn't buy one of them. 01:35.500 --> 01:40.000 Now, from your perspective as somebody in the software business, how serious is the piracy problem? 01:40.000 --> 01:42.000 Well, Stuart, it's a very serious issue. 01:42.000 --> 01:46.000 The problem is that as a software producer, you can't tell how much you're going to sell 01:46.000 --> 01:47.500 versus how much is going to be stolen. 01:47.500 --> 01:51.000 And as a result, the prices just go up to take care of that difference. 01:51.000 --> 01:56.000 Now, if we can control piracy, then we can control the customer base we're working with, 01:56.000 --> 01:59.000 we know how many we're going to sell, and as a result, the industry will stabilize 01:59.000 --> 02:02.000 at probably a lower price level, much like the record industry. 02:02.000 --> 02:05.000 So I think the issue right now in terms of mass marketing of software 02:05.000 --> 02:08.000 is just how much can you control in terms of the piracy issue. 02:08.000 --> 02:11.000 Okay, on today's program, we're going to meet a software pirate, 02:11.000 --> 02:14.500 we'll meet somebody who sells a utility that helps you defeat copy protection, 02:14.500 --> 02:18.000 we'll meet a lawyer who raided one of the largest pirate groups here in the Bay Area, 02:18.000 --> 02:20.000 and we'll talk to a software company executive. 02:20.000 --> 02:25.000 Now, some people say one of the problems with piracy is that software is so expensive in the first place. 02:25.000 --> 02:28.000 Why is it so expensive? We have a report. 02:30.000 --> 02:35.000 Behind much of the discussion about the rights and wrongs of piracy is a recurring question. 02:35.000 --> 02:38.000 Why do software programs cost so much? 02:38.000 --> 02:44.000 What can possibly justify the $500 price tag on a floppy disk that took a few minutes to duplicate? 02:44.000 --> 02:49.000 In fact, except for the box it comes in, it looks like any other floppy disk. 02:49.000 --> 02:53.000 But for the publisher, the production costs of that disk are easily measured. 02:53.000 --> 02:56.000 The biggest expense, of course, is in programming development. 02:56.000 --> 03:01.000 A top category word processor can take a year and a half of development time, 03:01.000 --> 03:04.000 relying on a team of over 60 people. 03:04.000 --> 03:06.000 The development team shares activities. 03:06.000 --> 03:11.000 Source code development, screens and help systems, and instruction manuals 03:11.000 --> 03:14.000 are all interdependent at various stages. 03:14.000 --> 03:19.000 Prestigious software houses also stress their documentation and on-screen tutorials, 03:19.000 --> 03:23.000 all part of extensive customer product training. 03:23.000 --> 03:28.000 The impetus for the product's design comes from a large marketing department. 03:28.000 --> 03:34.000 Advertising, package design, and merchandising devices add another expensive layer of cost. 03:34.000 --> 03:40.000 And when you add the extra costs of disk reproduction, typesetting, printing, and distribution, 03:40.000 --> 03:46.000 the overall cost of getting the program to the customer rises to several million dollars. 03:46.000 --> 03:51.000 To an advanced user who buys software by word of mouth or by trying out a friend's copy, 03:51.000 --> 03:56.000 the elaborate ad campaigns and customer coddling may seem like overkill. 03:56.000 --> 04:00.000 On the other hand, the first-time computer user may demand it. 04:00.000 --> 04:04.000 In any case, the expenses are considerable and genuine. 04:04.000 --> 04:21.000 But for the user, that doesn't make the prices of software any easier to pay. 04:21.000 --> 04:22.000 With us now is Mark Pump. 04:22.000 --> 04:26.000 Mark is the president of AlphaLogic Business Systems, makers of a utility called LockSmith 04:26.000 --> 04:28.000 that helps you copy software. 04:28.000 --> 04:32.000 And next to Mark is Smith McKeithin, vice president of Activision, 04:32.000 --> 04:35.000 a company which makes software and probably would rather not have it copied. 04:35.000 --> 04:36.000 Gary? 04:36.000 --> 04:43.000 You know, Stuart, there is a difference between the audio and video dubbing, or copying, business, I suppose, 04:43.000 --> 04:52.000 and software, in the software industry, because the 20th copy of a program or data is just as good as the very first copy. 04:52.000 --> 04:57.000 Now, I think of something like Activision as really being in the ROM cartridge business, 04:57.000 --> 04:58.000 but I guess you've moved away from that. 04:58.000 --> 05:02.000 How do you view the whole piracy issue from Activision's standpoint? 05:02.000 --> 05:08.000 Well, Gary, the issue of piracy is one of our intellectual property being essentially ripped off by people 05:08.000 --> 05:14.000 who haven't put the intellectual or financial investment into creating that. 05:14.000 --> 05:20.000 It takes from 1,500 to 2,000 hours to create a piece of quality software, 05:20.000 --> 05:25.000 and that's an investment just like the investment an author makes in writing a book 05:25.000 --> 05:28.000 or a producer or director makes in putting on a movie. 05:28.000 --> 05:34.000 And when someone takes that product and copies it and tries to market for cents on the dollar, 05:34.000 --> 05:40.000 it means that the creator of the software, such as a David Crane in our business, is working for nothing. 05:40.000 --> 05:43.000 Well, do you differentiate that between someone who's going to copy and then resell 05:43.000 --> 05:46.000 versus someone who's going to copy and give to their friend? 05:46.000 --> 05:48.000 No, I don't make any difference between the two, 05:48.000 --> 05:53.000 because I believe that both people suffer from essentially ethical blinders. 05:53.000 --> 05:59.000 It's as if I took a Porsche that I never wanted to drive, but I slipped it past a security guard. 05:59.000 --> 06:03.000 Even if I didn't drive it or if I gave it to a friend, that would be stealing. 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 And that's the same thing that happens to a company like Activision 06:06.000 --> 06:10.000 when someone uses its software in an unauthorized manner. 06:10.000 --> 06:12.000 Okay, now, Mark, from your side, 06:12.000 --> 06:17.000 don't users sometimes have a legitimate need to make copies of a program? 06:17.000 --> 06:22.000 Yes, without a doubt, the user has a legitimate need to make a copy of a program. 06:22.000 --> 06:26.000 If he's using his original copy and for some reason the copy becomes unusable, 06:26.000 --> 06:32.000 he's left without a program that his business might very well depend on for its day-to-day operations. 06:32.000 --> 06:39.000 Being without the software is in many ways being without an important part of his company. 06:39.000 --> 06:44.000 Well, it seems like there's also just a very basic need that some people have in taking a diskette 06:44.000 --> 06:46.000 and copying it over to hard disk. 06:46.000 --> 06:49.000 It's a very simple operation that you need to do a lot of times, say, on an IBM PC. 06:49.000 --> 06:50.000 Yes. 06:50.000 --> 06:53.000 Now, tell us about Locksmith. What does it do? 06:53.000 --> 06:58.000 Well, Locksmith is a program that makes an identical copy of the original disk, 06:58.000 --> 07:02.000 unlike what you might have heard about breaking a piece of software, 07:02.000 --> 07:06.000 breaking the protection, which involves removing the protection 07:06.000 --> 07:11.000 and in most cases removing any serial numbers and copyright notices that the software contains. 07:11.000 --> 07:15.000 Locksmith makes an identical copy, retains the protection, 07:15.000 --> 07:18.000 it retains the copyright notices, retains the serial numbers. 07:18.000 --> 07:23.000 It makes an identical copy, an identical protected copy of the original piece of software. 07:23.000 --> 07:28.000 Okay. Now, Mark, I think you have here in the Apple a piece of software which we don't want to identify, 07:28.000 --> 07:30.000 but you're going to show us this piece. 07:30.000 --> 07:32.000 You're going to make a copy of it with Locksmith, 07:32.000 --> 07:35.000 even though we otherwise could not make a copy of this disk, right? 07:35.000 --> 07:40.000 Yes. Locksmith, because of the way it works, it is not a very fast utility. 07:40.000 --> 07:45.000 It takes between eight and ten minutes to make a backup copy of a piece of software. 07:45.000 --> 07:50.000 This does not easily lend itself to the pirate who needs to make copies much faster. 07:50.000 --> 07:54.000 Typically, the pirate, for this reason, will break the software. 07:54.000 --> 07:58.000 Still, an eight-minute backup is, for many people, a lot cheaper, I guess, 07:58.000 --> 08:01.000 than going out and paying the extra $40, right? 08:01.000 --> 08:04.000 Well, yes, yes, it is, of course, used for that. 08:04.000 --> 08:08.000 The idea of the backup disk is you make one backup, store the original away and use the backup. 08:08.000 --> 08:13.000 When your backup becomes unusable, you have the original to make another backup copy. 08:13.000 --> 08:18.000 Isn't that the real issue, that if you could control the use of, say, Locksmith, 08:18.000 --> 08:21.000 then things would be a lot better? 08:21.000 --> 08:23.000 You could say, well, this is only used for backup purposes, 08:23.000 --> 08:26.000 not used for distribution of additional software. 08:26.000 --> 08:31.000 So some people would say that Locksmith would be, say, a pirate's tool for copying software. 08:31.000 --> 08:33.000 What would be your view of that? 08:33.000 --> 08:36.000 Well, in our advertisements and, in fact, in the manual, 08:36.000 --> 08:38.000 we encourage users to use it only for legal purposes. 08:38.000 --> 08:41.000 Of course, there are people who use it for pirating, 08:41.000 --> 08:45.000 even though there are much better ways to pirate software than using Locksmith. 08:45.000 --> 08:51.000 Okay, show us how you'd make a copy of this uncopiable disk then. 08:51.000 --> 08:55.000 Basically, you identify the disk drive that your original is in, 08:55.000 --> 08:57.000 the disk drive that your copy diskette is in, 08:57.000 --> 09:02.000 the range of tracks that you want to copy, a few other questions answered, 09:02.000 --> 09:06.000 a prompt here to insert the disks, and it starts copying. 09:06.000 --> 09:11.000 Now, that seems awfully easy, Smith, from your point of view. 09:11.000 --> 09:13.000 How do you react to a product like that? 09:13.000 --> 09:16.000 Well, the problem with a product like this is that this kind of product 09:16.000 --> 09:21.000 just facilitates people getting into intellectual property and stealing it. 09:21.000 --> 09:23.000 It makes it much too simple for them to do it. 09:23.000 --> 09:29.000 And if, in fact, a user of, say, one of Activision's products has a problem with this product, 09:29.000 --> 09:34.000 he only need call us on an 800 toll-free line or send the damaged product in, and we'll replace it. 09:34.000 --> 09:38.000 We have a year-long warranty on our products. We stand behind them. 09:38.000 --> 09:42.000 We receive over 3,000 pieces of mail a week from people who use Activision products 09:42.000 --> 09:44.000 and want to know about upcoming products. 09:44.000 --> 09:50.000 And these people have formed a bond with us, which we will not ignore by not giving them good service. 09:50.000 --> 09:54.000 And all the responsible software manufacturers follow that same trend. 09:54.000 --> 10:01.000 So there's no need for a product like this in the event of someone having a damaged product that they want to use. 10:01.000 --> 10:05.000 Well, again, I think it goes back to the issue that maybe the software providers, 10:05.000 --> 10:11.000 people who write the software initially, aren't really allowing for the possibility of a backup for a legitimate user. 10:11.000 --> 10:16.000 At least I've run into that particular problem myself, that you go back to the diskette over the hard disk. 10:16.000 --> 10:21.000 There's programs I just simply can't use because I have no way of getting them onto a hard disk system, 10:21.000 --> 10:24.000 which is where all my programs are located. 10:24.000 --> 10:26.000 But have you talked to the manufacturer about that? 10:26.000 --> 10:30.000 Oh, sure. And then they say, well, they have no way of controlling the distribution of that kind of thing, 10:30.000 --> 10:35.000 a backup, again, opens up the possibility of illegitimate copying. 10:35.000 --> 10:43.000 Well, there may be a tension in the system, but the problem is that a product like this and the wide use, 10:43.000 --> 10:48.000 the wider than we like to have use of illegitimate copies, really can, in the long range, 10:48.000 --> 10:53.000 spoil the production of creative intellectual product for everybody. 10:53.000 --> 10:54.000 Absolutely. 10:54.000 --> 10:56.000 And that's a zero-sum game. 10:56.000 --> 11:01.000 Well, Mark, what about that? I mean, do you have any feedback on how your product is, in fact, being used? 11:01.000 --> 11:06.000 Well, without programs like Locksmith, pirating would, in fact, still exist. 11:06.000 --> 11:11.000 Sophisticated computer users, so-called hackers, don't need programs like Locksmith. 11:11.000 --> 11:17.000 They have the technical expertise to break or remove the protection from the software 11:17.000 --> 11:22.000 without actually making an identical copy of the original disk. 11:22.000 --> 11:26.000 I don't know whether that's true for real or dyed-in-the-wool pirators, but I think that they're, 11:26.000 --> 11:29.000 I've experienced this myself because I have a 15-year-old son who's involved. 11:29.000 --> 11:33.000 Now, I've tried very hard to keep him from copying software, and he's very good at that, 11:33.000 --> 11:40.000 but I see a community of, say, relatively unsophisticated users of that age group that do some copying. 11:40.000 --> 11:47.000 And I don't think, in many cases, they would be doing it if they didn't have programs available to unlock some of these things. 11:47.000 --> 11:52.000 Well, one of the largest users of Locksmith is schools. 11:52.000 --> 12:00.000 Educational software is not cheap, and teachers feel reluctant to take their only copy of an expensive piece of software, 12:00.000 --> 12:05.000 put it in their students' hands, and allow it to be either stolen or damaged by sharp objects, 12:05.000 --> 12:07.000 magnetic fields, what have you. 12:07.000 --> 12:11.000 Most schools that buy Locksmith use Locksmith to archive. 12:11.000 --> 12:16.000 They make a backup copy of the original, archive the original, and let the students use the backup copy. 12:16.000 --> 12:17.000 Thank you, gentlemen. 12:17.000 --> 12:20.000 Now, in just a minute, we're going to meet Captain Crunch, one of the original pirates. 12:20.000 --> 12:25.000 We'll meet a current-day pirate, and we'll meet a lawyer who busted the West Coast Computer Connection, 12:25.000 --> 12:27.000 an alleged band of pirates. 12:27.000 --> 12:29.000 That's coming up next. 12:29.000 --> 12:40.000 [♪upbeat music playing♪ 12:40.000 --> 12:44.000 With us now is Captain Crunch, whose real name is John Draper. 12:44.000 --> 12:49.000 John was called a pirate when that referred to stealing long-distance telephone calls rather than software. 12:49.000 --> 12:51.000 And sitting next to John is Neil Smith. 12:51.000 --> 12:57.000 Neil is a partner in the firm of Limbach, Limbach & Sutton, and Neil might be called a pirate buster these days. 12:57.000 --> 12:58.000 Gary? 12:58.000 --> 13:05.000 Yeah, John, I guess the phone-freaking of the 60s is sort of the computer hacking of today's date. 13:05.000 --> 13:10.000 And you were, I guess, what we'd call a phone cracker, and you got into the system and so forth. 13:10.000 --> 13:12.000 I guess you'd be considered a pirate in those days. 13:12.000 --> 13:15.000 Now you've moved into being a software vendor now. 13:15.000 --> 13:16.000 You're the author of EasyWriter. 13:16.000 --> 13:18.000 You're working on a lot of Mac software. 13:18.000 --> 13:20.000 How do you feel about software piracy? 13:20.000 --> 13:26.000 Well, it's definitely a problem, and the problem is probably because of the very high cost of the software. 13:26.000 --> 13:30.000 And the reason for that, of course, is that programmers can't work for nothing, 13:30.000 --> 13:33.000 and the cost of development is very, very high. 13:33.000 --> 13:41.000 And with that in consideration, this is the reason why a lot of programmers are reluctant to come up with good software. 13:41.000 --> 13:44.000 Freeware seems to be the best way to go all around. 13:44.000 --> 13:50.000 It eliminates a lot of the problems caused by the copy protection thing. 13:50.000 --> 13:52.000 Freeware has the problem of the support around it, though. 13:52.000 --> 13:57.000 Right, exactly, and you must really support the product in order to come out with Freeware. 13:57.000 --> 13:58.000 Takes a lot of dedication. 13:58.000 --> 14:05.000 And only for those people that mail in their $20 or $30 checks will get the support and the licensing to run the program. 14:05.000 --> 14:08.000 Neil, would you agree about this problem of expensive software? 14:08.000 --> 14:12.000 Well, I think we have somewhat of a chicken or egg problem because if you look at the marketing of software, 14:12.000 --> 14:19.000 you'd find that one of the reasons software has to be marketed so high is to recoup those high development costs, 14:19.000 --> 14:25.000 the amount of money it takes to develop that software in order to get good software that has the bugs worked out. 14:25.000 --> 14:27.000 Or you had a reasonable ad campaign. 14:27.000 --> 14:28.000 Well, that's right, to do that. 14:28.000 --> 14:35.000 And if the manufacturer could count on everybody who uses programs buying one, that cost could drop dramatically. 14:35.000 --> 14:41.000 And I think in many cases we're fooling ourselves in blaming the high price because in many cases, 14:41.000 --> 14:44.000 if that could be spread out, everybody would buy one. 14:44.000 --> 14:49.000 It would be very much like records, perhaps $10 a piece rather than quite a bit much more. 14:49.000 --> 14:52.000 Neil, we've been trying to get a handle on the volume of this problem, 14:52.000 --> 14:55.000 and you happen to have a catalog there from the West Coast Computer Connection. 14:55.000 --> 14:56.000 Show it to us. 14:56.000 --> 14:57.000 Right, let me show you this. 14:57.000 --> 14:59.000 This is one of the more brazen operations. 14:59.000 --> 15:08.000 This is a multi-page catalog listing just scads and scads of titles of pirated software documentation, 15:08.000 --> 15:11.000 including some of the cracking programs and locksmith. 15:11.000 --> 15:14.000 It's interesting, locksmith is on both sides of these. 15:14.000 --> 15:17.000 They have a problem with their proprietary software being pirated as well. 15:17.000 --> 15:20.000 Okay, what was the West Coast Computer Connection doing and what happened to them? 15:20.000 --> 15:23.000 Well, what they were doing was they were marketing mail order. 15:23.000 --> 15:26.000 They were making contacts, not through bulletin boards. 15:26.000 --> 15:30.000 This was a few months ago, not through bulletin boards that we knew about really, 15:30.000 --> 15:35.000 but through the advertising and through the marketing catalogs being distributed. 15:35.000 --> 15:38.000 And what we did there, it turns out this happened to be, 15:38.000 --> 15:41.000 and I'm not saying everybody is going to get by so easily, 15:41.000 --> 15:46.000 but it happened to be some juveniles, and because of the concern about that, 15:46.000 --> 15:50.000 we really went over and visited them and explained the seriousness of this, 15:50.000 --> 15:53.000 and they agreed to cut it out. 15:53.000 --> 15:56.000 We had written an agreement from them that they would discontinue it. 15:56.000 --> 16:01.000 The remedies under the law are much stronger, and we may want to talk about that. 16:01.000 --> 16:03.000 Thank you, gentlemen. We'll be back in just a minute. 16:03.000 --> 16:06.000 As we heard, some people suggested if software were cheaper, 16:06.000 --> 16:08.000 then there wouldn't be the motivation to have piracy. 16:08.000 --> 16:13.000 Wendy Woods took a look at that idea. 16:13.000 --> 16:17.000 Overlooking the San Francisco Bay and here in this little garage 16:17.000 --> 16:21.000 is one of the most revolutionary software businesses in the United States. 16:21.000 --> 16:25.000 Welcome to Hedlund Press. 16:25.000 --> 16:28.000 This is the home of Freeware, specifically PC Talk, 16:28.000 --> 16:31.000 a communications program that's not copy protected. 16:31.000 --> 16:34.000 In fact, each shipment encourages piracy. 16:34.000 --> 16:39.000 You can copy freely every single diskette in a unique approach to software sales. 16:39.000 --> 16:44.000 I think what we've done is just address the whole notion of copy protection and piracy 16:44.000 --> 16:49.000 in a different way, and rather than restricting access to the program 16:49.000 --> 16:52.000 and appealing to people's dishonesty, 16:52.000 --> 16:56.000 we're giving wide access to the program and appealing to their honesty. 16:56.000 --> 17:00.000 This mom-and-pop operation claims one out of ten people who copy PC Talk 17:00.000 --> 17:06.000 will pay the suggested $35 fee, and their letters tell the tale of appreciation. 17:06.000 --> 17:10.000 Well, all this is fine and good, but what does it mean for support? 17:10.000 --> 17:13.000 That's usually the biggest part of a software company's budget, 17:13.000 --> 17:16.000 and Hedlund Press stays on the phone quite a lot. 17:16.000 --> 17:19.000 What do they do if people haven't paid for the program? 17:19.000 --> 17:23.000 We really found that we did better business by giving out the information, 17:23.000 --> 17:26.000 and if someone was using it and hadn't paid, 17:26.000 --> 17:30.000 we could help them use the program, then they'd be more likely to pay us. 17:30.000 --> 17:33.000 Flugelman thinks the rest of the industry should take a lesson. 17:33.000 --> 17:38.000 He's getting important feedback, business, and appreciation because of his philosophy. 17:38.000 --> 17:42.000 He's not getting rich, but he is getting a surprising amount of gratitude. 17:42.000 --> 17:46.000 Reporting for the Computer Chronicles, I'm Wendy Woods. 17:46.000 --> 17:48.000 Thank you, Wendy. 17:48.000 --> 17:51.000 Joining us now is a young man who we're going to call Frankie Mouse. 17:51.000 --> 17:54.000 That's not his real name, but the guy we're calling Frankie Mouse is a pirate, 17:54.000 --> 17:57.000 and he's going to show us quite an incredible demonstration. Gary? 17:57.000 --> 18:00.000 You know, Stuart, I think it's one of the important things we should mention 18:00.000 --> 18:02.000 is that by showing these activities on the show here, 18:02.000 --> 18:04.000 we're not really condoning them in any way. 18:04.000 --> 18:06.000 In fact, we're not condoning them at all. 18:06.000 --> 18:08.000 But I think it's a rare opportunity for us to get a chance to see 18:08.000 --> 18:11.000 just exactly what pirating is all about. 18:11.000 --> 18:13.000 So, Frankie, what's going on here? 18:13.000 --> 18:16.000 Okay, we're logged onto a bulletin board right now, 18:16.000 --> 18:21.000 and what you see on the screen are titles of text files that you can look at. 18:21.000 --> 18:25.000 The ones of interest right here are like Basics of Cracking 101, et cetera. 18:25.000 --> 18:28.000 If you're not already a pirate, these will tell you how to. 18:28.000 --> 18:30.000 Who's the person, how does he have a cell phone? 18:30.000 --> 18:32.000 Basically, yeah, there's many, many parts to it. 18:32.000 --> 18:35.000 In fact, not all of it is displayed here. There's much more than what you see here. 18:35.000 --> 18:37.000 And these are Apple II-oriented. 18:37.000 --> 18:40.000 If you want to look at one, just type the number of it, 18:40.000 --> 18:43.000 and it will start scrolling across the screen right here. 18:43.000 --> 18:46.000 I would like to have brought a 1200-watt modem. It would have gone a lot faster. 18:46.000 --> 18:49.000 Okay, so this is one of your how-to text files on a kind of cracker. 18:49.000 --> 18:51.000 Basically right. Well, first of all, they're not mine. 18:51.000 --> 18:54.000 Somebody else has written these, and basically they go all over the country. 18:54.000 --> 18:59.000 This is a bulletin board, a local bulletin board that people dial into from, 18:59.000 --> 19:01.000 let's say, all over the country. 19:01.000 --> 19:04.000 So how many people, let's say, would be involved in this particular activity here? 19:04.000 --> 19:06.000 Well, it all depends on the board. 19:06.000 --> 19:08.000 Some boards have got as few as 100 members. 19:08.000 --> 19:10.000 Some have got as few as 2,000 and 3,000 members. 19:10.000 --> 19:15.000 Okay, now, so can we go on this bulletin board and actually get a piece of pirated software? 19:15.000 --> 19:17.000 There are items like that that exist. 19:17.000 --> 19:20.000 For the Apple II especially, they're called AE lines. 19:20.000 --> 19:22.000 And that's not really a bulletin board, 19:22.000 --> 19:25.000 but it is a way of allowing you to call that computer 19:25.000 --> 19:28.000 and download files that have already been cracked. 19:28.000 --> 19:32.000 This particular bulletin board does not have anything like that. 19:32.000 --> 19:35.000 How many bulletin boards are like this throughout the country, just as a guess? 19:35.000 --> 19:37.000 Do you have any idea at all? Hundreds or? 19:37.000 --> 19:39.000 I think thousands. I have really no idea. 19:39.000 --> 19:41.000 They're all over the place, though. 19:41.000 --> 19:45.000 How do you feel about that? Do you feel like it's a—why do you do this? 19:45.000 --> 19:46.000 What's the reason? 19:46.000 --> 19:53.000 Well, unlike West Coast Computer Connection here, we don't do anything like that for profit. 19:53.000 --> 19:56.000 Basically, it's just for fun and recognition. 19:56.000 --> 20:01.000 If you have a popular name, such as—you mentioned the name Mr. Crackman to any pirate, 20:01.000 --> 20:03.000 and they'll know who you're talking about. 20:03.000 --> 20:05.000 They won't know who he is personally, but they'll know who you're referring to. 20:05.000 --> 20:11.000 So your interest is, I guess, in the fun that you would have in actually cracking the program, 20:11.000 --> 20:13.000 and that's the activity that— 20:13.000 --> 20:17.000 It's kind of like a game. Right. You're outsmarting the software makers. 20:17.000 --> 20:23.000 Do you feel like that has any—are there any moral issues at all that you're worried about? 20:23.000 --> 20:26.000 Well, you can't deny it. I guess it is stealing. 20:26.000 --> 20:28.000 I mean, you didn't pay for it, and now you have it. 20:28.000 --> 20:33.000 I mean, you've got it somewhere. That's stealing. 20:33.000 --> 20:36.000 I really can't say, though, how much software companies lose in revenue, 20:36.000 --> 20:44.000 because, first of all, a copied program is like free advertising in a way because it goes out. 20:44.000 --> 20:49.000 And among me and my friends, we have sort of a code of honor that we follow. 20:49.000 --> 20:53.000 If we have a program and we use it a lot, we like it, we will go out and buy it, 20:53.000 --> 20:56.000 simply so we have the manuals and the support and all that stuff. 20:56.000 --> 21:01.000 Frankie, if you could log off here, and I want you to show me your Pirate of D.D. Master in a second. 21:01.000 --> 21:04.000 Neil, while Frankie's doing that, how do you react to what you just heard from Neil 21:04.000 --> 21:07.000 as a guy who represents software publishers? 21:07.000 --> 21:09.000 Well, I think there's both a moral issue here and a legal issue. 21:09.000 --> 21:14.000 We talked about before, and Frankie didn't hear that, but he may catch it later, 21:14.000 --> 21:18.000 really the fact that people are using this software and not paying for it 21:18.000 --> 21:21.000 really means the software is a lot more expensive. 21:21.000 --> 21:24.000 I think there's an economic issue here that they really— 21:24.000 --> 21:28.000 if everybody was using it, paid a small amount, we'd probably have the price drop dramatically. 21:28.000 --> 21:33.000 The second part is the legal, and I'm happy to hear Frankie admit that it is in fact stealing. 21:33.000 --> 21:35.000 It is in fact a criminal act. 21:35.000 --> 21:39.000 There's a copyright infringement, has been a crime and continues to be a crime. 21:39.000 --> 21:44.000 You can get a year in jail, perhaps more monetary fines, as well as use of trademarks. 21:44.000 --> 21:48.000 We do use the name of the trademark when you have a new criminal statute, 21:48.000 --> 21:52.000 criminal counterfeiting statute that provides up to five years in jail. 21:52.000 --> 21:56.000 Okay, let's go back to Frankie. What do you have here now, Frankie? 21:56.000 --> 22:02.000 Okay, this is a popular program for the Apple II known as DB Master, 22:02.000 --> 22:06.000 and it's protected like crazy. You can't copy it conventionally. 22:06.000 --> 22:07.000 What did you do? 22:07.000 --> 22:09.000 What we've done to it is we've totally opened it up. 22:09.000 --> 22:11.000 I mean, you can copy it from BASIC right now. 22:11.000 --> 22:13.000 There's no protection whatsoever. 22:13.000 --> 22:15.000 One thing that we found that was interesting when we did it 22:15.000 --> 22:20.000 is that DB Master is written for a large part in BASIC. 22:20.000 --> 22:24.000 I mean, most commercial programs are written in assembly language. 22:24.000 --> 22:27.000 It crosses the confidence we're now listing now. 22:27.000 --> 22:31.000 What would it take, Frankie, for you to buy a program? 22:31.000 --> 22:33.000 I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. 22:33.000 --> 22:34.000 Rather than steal it. 22:34.000 --> 22:40.000 Is there any incentive that a manufacturer could provide for you to buy that program? 22:40.000 --> 22:42.000 Well, like I say, if I have a program that I use a lot, 22:42.000 --> 22:44.000 I'll buy it for the manuals and for the support. 22:44.000 --> 22:47.000 So I guess what I could say is to put out good manuals and support the product. 22:47.000 --> 22:50.000 Okay, gentlemen, Frankie and Neil, thanks a lot. 22:50.000 --> 22:55.000 Now, as we see, this is a complex issue with problems of morality and ethics and price and so on. 22:55.000 --> 22:59.000 Commentator Paul Schindler has some thoughts on the whole problem of piracy. 22:59.000 --> 23:03.000 Avast! I'll bet you never thought of old Paul Schindler as a pirate. 23:03.000 --> 23:05.000 But you know, there are some people who do. 23:05.000 --> 23:08.000 And that takes us to the heart of the software piracy question. 23:08.000 --> 23:10.000 Is it moral or isn't? 23:10.000 --> 23:14.000 Now, that's a hard question to answer, but I can tell you that software piracy is illegal, 23:14.000 --> 23:16.000 and the definition is pretty simple. 23:16.000 --> 23:19.000 It's piracy if you give away a commercial software program. 23:19.000 --> 23:22.000 That's right. You're a pirate even if you give it away. 23:22.000 --> 23:26.000 Now, most people don't think it's immoral unless you sell the program. 23:26.000 --> 23:28.000 Those two views are irreconcilable, 23:28.000 --> 23:31.000 and they cause a great deal of controversy in the software industry. 23:31.000 --> 23:36.000 As a result, software developers are constantly looking for ways to prevent software piracy. 23:36.000 --> 23:39.000 One of the most common, and the dumbest, is copyproofing. 23:39.000 --> 23:43.000 Copyproofing causes a lot of problems that I'm not going to get into right now. 23:43.000 --> 23:46.000 But the fact of the matter is that what's worst about copyproofing is 23:46.000 --> 23:50.000 that it attacks the symptoms, not the cause, of software piracy. 23:50.000 --> 23:54.000 In my opinion, high prices cause software piracy. 23:54.000 --> 23:58.000 Now, I know that Lotus costs $700 because the developers want to make their money back. 23:58.000 --> 24:01.000 But the fact of the matter is that corporations can afford prices like that, 24:01.000 --> 24:03.000 and private individuals can't. 24:03.000 --> 24:09.000 Whether it's moral or not, expensive software is pirated a lot more frequently than cheap software. 24:09.000 --> 24:14.000 So my solution to software piracy is for developers to figure out a way to make cheaper software. 24:14.000 --> 24:16.000 That's my opinion. I'm Paul Schindler. 24:27.000 --> 24:31.000 In the random access file this week, imagine it's April 15th, almost midnight, 24:31.000 --> 24:34.000 and instead of rushing down to the post office to drop in your tax returns, 24:34.000 --> 24:38.000 you simply turn on your modem and download the old 1040 to Uncle Sam. 24:38.000 --> 24:43.000 The IRS says it is looking into electronic tax filing, including sending in a return on a floppy disk. 24:43.000 --> 24:47.000 One IRS analyst said, you thought there could be electronic filing within five years. 24:47.000 --> 24:53.000 Meanwhile, just like Christmas baubles in October, software store shelves are filling up with tax preparation programs. 24:53.000 --> 24:56.000 There are an estimated 50 tax programs in the market this year, 24:56.000 --> 24:59.000 ranging in price from about $50 to more than $300. 24:59.000 --> 25:03.000 Some just help you prepare your returns, others actually help you in tax planning. 25:03.000 --> 25:06.000 Here's a list of five of the most well-known tax programs and their prices. 25:06.000 --> 25:11.000 Most of the tax software is available for the IBM PC and the Apple line. 25:11.000 --> 25:15.000 The IRS, by the way, has cracked down on the rules regarding tax deductions for home computers. 25:15.000 --> 25:19.000 Under the revised law, you can only take the full tax deduction for your PC 25:19.000 --> 25:23.000 if you use it at least 50% of the time for legitimate business purposes. 25:23.000 --> 25:27.000 And using your computer to analyze personal investments will not count as part of that. 25:27.000 --> 25:29.000 Best to check with your accountant. 25:29.000 --> 25:33.000 Well, along with electronic tax filing, electronic job finding is growing. 25:33.000 --> 25:36.000 There are now five online job databases in the country. 25:36.000 --> 25:41.000 Business Week magazine says employers are warming to the efficiency of doing online searches for prospects 25:41.000 --> 25:46.000 since they can add or subtract qualifying criteria and so narrow or broaden the pool as needed. 25:46.000 --> 25:52.000 American computer manufacturers are poised for the impending invasion of the Japanese MSX computers, 25:52.000 --> 25:53.000 but no one seems too worried. 25:53.000 --> 25:57.000 Most analysts seem to think the Japanese PCs will offer too little, too late. 25:57.000 --> 26:02.000 MSX machines were introduced in Europe late last year and have so far received a cool reception. 26:02.000 --> 26:06.000 How about a warm reception for our software reviewer, Paul Schindler. 26:06.000 --> 26:14.000 If you don't recognize these moves, you probably never played pinball. 26:14.000 --> 26:17.000 Now, I'm not talking video games here. I'm talking the real thing. 26:17.000 --> 26:20.000 A little steel ball moving down through a gadget-filled field. 26:20.000 --> 26:25.000 You know, I can still remember the first time I found out that real pinball players deliberately bumped the game 26:25.000 --> 26:29.000 and felt the rhythm of the tilt detectors in order to try to avoid a tilt. 26:29.000 --> 26:31.000 Now, why am I telling you about all this? 26:31.000 --> 26:36.000 Because the true pinball experience has been captured by a game called Night Mission Pinball. 26:36.000 --> 26:40.000 Now, this is not one of those games where you get to design the pinball game. 26:40.000 --> 26:41.000 The basic design is locked in. 26:41.000 --> 26:47.000 But while you can install things just where you want them, you can control every other aspect of the game. 26:47.000 --> 26:51.000 Ball speed, friction, kicker power, bonus points, bumper resilience. 26:51.000 --> 26:56.000 I still remember at MIT whenever people would start winning too many games, they'd deaden the bumpers. 26:56.000 --> 26:57.000 Talk about realism! 26:57.000 --> 27:01.000 When you start Night Mission Pinball, you see quarters on the screen dropping into a slot. 27:01.000 --> 27:03.000 And you can bump this game. 27:03.000 --> 27:05.000 But if you bump it too hard, it tilts. 27:05.000 --> 27:08.000 This is the finest simulation of a physical game I've ever seen. 27:08.000 --> 27:11.000 Hats off to Suvlogic, Champaign, Illinois, 27:11.000 --> 27:14.000 the people who, for just $40, bring you Night Mission Pinball. 27:14.000 --> 27:17.000 For Random Access, I'm Paul Schindler. 27:17.000 --> 27:21.000 Commodore says it will lay off more than 500 workers from its plants in Pennsylvania and California. 27:21.000 --> 27:25.000 Commodore says inventories are high, due in part to slower-than-expected Christmas sales. 27:25.000 --> 27:29.000 Hewlett Packard reportedly will be coming out with an upgrade of its Model 110 portable. 27:29.000 --> 27:35.000 The new version will feature a 24-line display, 512K of RAM, and a price tag under $2,000. 27:35.000 --> 27:38.000 It reportedly will not come with bundled software in ROM. 27:38.000 --> 27:42.000 Software Access International just completed a survey of computer users 27:42.000 --> 27:44.000 to see what they do with their computers. 27:44.000 --> 27:48.000 Results? An average user spends 12.2 hours a week with his PC, 27:48.000 --> 27:52.000 and about half of the time is spent on work, the other half on games. 27:52.000 --> 27:57.000 There's a new game out called Comex the Game by the Commodity Exchange in New York. 27:57.000 --> 28:00.000 It's a sophisticated simulation of real commodities trading, 28:00.000 --> 28:02.000 where money can be made and lost real fast. 28:02.000 --> 28:05.000 The exchange says it is selling the software in the hopes that users 28:05.000 --> 28:08.000 will then move from the game to the real thing. 28:08.000 --> 28:10.000 Finally, you've seen those personals columns in the newspaper, 28:10.000 --> 28:12.000 you know, single white male, six, etc. 28:12.000 --> 28:14.000 Well, you guessed it, New York Magazine, 28:14.000 --> 28:17.000 the famed repository for the cryptic lust-wanted ads, 28:17.000 --> 28:20.000 has a new electronic mail network called XNet. 28:20.000 --> 28:25.000 It is essentially a personals bulletin board in which New Yorkers can post their desires for dates. 28:25.000 --> 28:29.000 XNet says about 300 hungry hopefuls have signed up for the service. 28:29.000 --> 28:32.000 That's it for this week's Computer Chronicles. We'll see you next time. 28:32.000 --> 28:36.000 The Computer Chronicles was brought to you in part by McGraw-Hill, 28:36.000 --> 28:38.000 publishers of Popular Computing, 28:38.000 --> 28:42.000 the magazine that gives readers an understanding of the technology 28:42.000 --> 28:50.000 and applications of microcomputers and software in office, home and classroom. 29:12.000 --> 29:26.000 The Computer Chronicles