WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:15.400 This is the hands-on computer exhibit at the Exploratorium, a science museum here in San 00:15.400 --> 00:19.480 Francisco. And one of the most interesting things about this exhibit is the kids who 00:19.480 --> 00:24.320 come here, because there are as many girls as there are boys. The stereotype is that 00:24.320 --> 00:28.760 computers are mainly for boys and men. But today we're going to take a look at women 00:28.760 --> 00:32.760 in computing on this edition of the Computer Chronicles. 00:32.760 --> 00:38.040 The Computer Chronicles is made possible in part by grants from AFIPS, the American Federation 00:38.040 --> 00:43.920 of Information Processing Societies, a non-profit federation of 11 national societies for computer 00:43.920 --> 00:50.080 professionals. AFIPS, leadership and service in computer and information technology. Additional 00:50.080 --> 00:55.640 funding is provided by McGraw-Hill, publishers of Byte. Byte's detailed technical articles 00:55.640 --> 01:01.960 on new hardware, software, and languages cover the latest in microcomputer technology worldwide. 01:01.960 --> 01:09.280 Byte, the international standard. 01:09.280 --> 01:13.600 Welcome to the Computer Chronicles. I'm Stuart Shafae and this is Gary Kildall. Gary, we 01:13.600 --> 01:17.920 have up on the computer here an adventure game called Cave Girl Claire that features 01:17.920 --> 01:21.560 a young girl as the main figure in the adventure game. And that reminds us right away that 01:21.560 --> 01:25.760 in fact most adventure games, most computer games are aimed at men. Now a lot of people 01:25.760 --> 01:29.960 thought computers and high tech would be an equalizer among the sexes, but yet most computer 01:29.960 --> 01:34.560 engineers, programmers, scientists are in fact men. What is your theory as to why there 01:34.560 --> 01:36.240 is this gender gap in computers? 01:36.240 --> 01:40.720 Well our industry is really based in general engineering which is a male dominated field. 01:40.720 --> 01:45.280 But our industry also thrives on talent and innovation and not on artificial biases and 01:45.280 --> 01:48.640 barriers. What's the reality of the situation? I don't know what it is exactly. I do know 01:48.640 --> 01:52.800 in my personal experience my son is a computer nut and my daughter loves horses. Now I love 01:52.800 --> 01:56.080 both of those directions but I can't tell you what I did to influence that. Maybe our 01:56.080 --> 01:57.320 experts can. 01:57.320 --> 02:00.520 I think so. We're going to meet the woman who created this particular piece of software 02:00.520 --> 02:04.680 for women. We'll meet several of the top women in the computing field to find out why there 02:04.680 --> 02:09.680 are so few women in computers. Now their numbers may be few but there are some precocious young 02:09.680 --> 02:13.320 women out there in computers and we're going to begin with a profile of a young female 02:13.320 --> 02:16.440 computer whiz. 02:16.440 --> 02:21.000 Computers in the classroom are no longer scarce, often introduced to both boys and girls as 02:21.000 --> 02:25.800 early as the first grade. But while the sexes are about evenly divided in this elementary 02:25.800 --> 02:31.720 school class, the ratio changes in later years. A recent study indicates that first grade 02:31.720 --> 02:37.600 girls are just as likely to use computers as boys. But by the sixth grade, boys outnumber 02:37.600 --> 02:42.960 girls by two to one. By the time they leave junior high school, boys make up 80 percent 02:42.960 --> 02:48.640 of the group learning to program computers. Educators cite different reasons for the discrepancy 02:48.640 --> 02:55.080 from intimidation and parental pressure to educational software's male-oriented games. 02:55.080 --> 02:59.400 But while it may be a simple job to count heads in a classroom, it is harder to keep 02:59.400 --> 03:06.000 track of the computer's influence outside of school. 03:06.000 --> 03:11.120 Corrie Grimm is 16 years old. She's also a graphic artist working at her mother's software 03:11.120 --> 03:16.760 company. Since the age of 10, she's used a joystick, a mouse, and an electronic palette 03:16.760 --> 03:22.520 to give form to her ideas. To Corrie, the computer is not intimidating or alien, but 03:22.520 --> 03:27.960 the most natural resource to produce her artwork. She talks about progressing from low to high 03:27.960 --> 03:34.160 resolution screens like a promotion to the next grade. Unlike many artists who only reluctantly 03:34.160 --> 03:39.280 traded the tactile sense of a paintbrush for a light pen, Corrie began her graphic arts 03:39.280 --> 03:45.920 career using the computer as her primary tool. She also has three computers at home, programs 03:45.920 --> 03:52.120 in BASIC, and does her homework on a Macintosh. With the help of teacher workshops, female 03:52.120 --> 03:57.880 enrollment in computer classes has expanded recently, and hoping to find a new market, 03:57.880 --> 04:03.240 some software vendors continue to develop programs specifically designed for women. 04:03.240 --> 04:08.720 But Corrie Grimm learned naturally to assimilate computers into her life without worrying about 04:08.720 --> 04:23.120 either one. 04:23.120 --> 04:26.880 Joining us now is a mother and daughter team of computer scientists. First of all, Thelma 04:26.880 --> 04:31.480 Estrin, a professor of computer science at UCLA, and next to her, her daughter, Judy 04:31.480 --> 04:35.920 Estrin, the executive vice president at a company she helped found, Bridge Communications, 04:35.920 --> 04:38.880 a company involved in local area network technology. Gary? 04:38.880 --> 04:44.120 Thelma, you're considered successful by any measure in computer science and engineering, 04:44.120 --> 04:48.080 and your daughter is certainly very successful with following in your footsteps with advanced 04:48.080 --> 04:52.280 degrees in electrical engineering, computer science, a new company that she's formed, 04:52.280 --> 04:58.400 a very successful company. How did you manage to get into a field such as engineering at 04:58.400 --> 05:00.240 the time that you did? 05:00.240 --> 05:05.000 Well, you may remember during the Second World War about Rosie the Riveter, the women who 05:05.000 --> 05:11.640 went into war industries. Well, I had the opportunity to work in an engineering lab 05:11.640 --> 05:18.840 and replacing the men who were going to fight. And after that, I decided to go back to school 05:18.840 --> 05:24.640 and major in engineering. And it was at a time when I just went right through and got 05:24.640 --> 05:27.280 a Ph.D. in electrical engineering. 05:27.280 --> 05:30.960 You're considered pretty rare at that time? 05:30.960 --> 05:35.920 Pretty rare. I was married at that time to my husband, who also has a Ph.D. in computer 05:35.920 --> 05:40.840 engineering, and most of the people thought I was in school either to do his homework 05:40.840 --> 05:45.440 or he was having me in school to keep me out of mischief. But nevertheless, we both went 05:45.440 --> 05:50.160 on to careers, and he had the opportunity to go and work at the Institute for Advanced 05:50.160 --> 05:59.480 Study with John von Neumann, and I worked there for the summer and then went into another 05:59.480 --> 06:03.400 career, biomedical engineering, but then subsequently came back to computer engineering. 06:03.400 --> 06:07.080 Have you seen attitudes shift at all during that time? 06:07.080 --> 06:14.680 Yes, tremendously. In the sense that then I was very rare. Somebody would say, what 06:14.680 --> 06:17.880 do you do? And I'd say, an electrical engineer. And they'd always say, well, you don't look 06:17.880 --> 06:22.440 like an electrical engineer. Well, I don't think you find a woman who says she's a computer 06:22.440 --> 06:26.800 scientist today, anybody saying, well, you don't look like a computer scientist. So from 06:26.800 --> 06:28.360 that point of view, I think. 06:28.360 --> 06:33.440 Judy, one thing that people talk about is the role model. What effect do you think your 06:33.440 --> 06:35.320 mother had in terms of your career? 06:35.320 --> 06:40.080 I believe very strongly in the impact of role models, and it's one of the reasons why more 06:40.080 --> 06:44.720 and more women are going into computers and engineering, because those role models exist. 06:44.720 --> 06:48.680 And I think one of the main differences and the things that have helped me be successful 06:48.680 --> 06:54.400 has had to do with how I approach my entry into the industry and my moving along in that 06:54.400 --> 06:59.800 industry. I never questioned whether or not I should move into a man's profession. I watched 06:59.800 --> 07:04.360 my mother do it, and it was a question of, why shouldn't I? And let's see anybody stop 07:04.360 --> 07:08.720 me, as opposed to going out there cautiously. I might add also, though, is when I said that 07:08.720 --> 07:12.960 I'm an executive VP of research and development, I still get people who tell me I don't look 07:12.960 --> 07:14.960 like an executive VP of research and development. 07:14.960 --> 07:16.680 So maybe not that much has changed. 07:16.680 --> 07:21.120 So it has changed. But if I said I was an electrical engineer, they wouldn't question 07:21.120 --> 07:25.440 it. But it is still at the higher levels of management, I think, that the attitudes have 07:25.440 --> 07:26.440 changed. 07:26.440 --> 07:29.480 Judy, we had your mother's perspective on the things that have changed in one generation's 07:29.480 --> 07:32.480 worth. I was wondering what your perspective is on what it's like now compared to what 07:32.480 --> 07:34.880 you saw your mother going through when she got into this field. 07:34.880 --> 07:40.720 I think you really have to separate out the individual contributor and the first-level 07:40.720 --> 07:47.360 managers from upper-level management. And at the engineer level, it has changed dramatically. 07:47.360 --> 07:53.080 When I entered the workforce in an industry with young men, and so those younger men were 07:53.080 --> 07:58.200 very accepting of me. And I'm very happy to say I have had very few obstacles going through 07:58.200 --> 08:02.200 my career. It's the reason I've been able to do what I have so quickly. 08:02.200 --> 08:07.680 And I think that there have been dramatic changes. At the higher levels, someone earlier 08:07.680 --> 08:11.920 was mentioning that the women at the top have tended to be at the top of companies they 08:11.920 --> 08:18.240 have founded. So I do believe that there are still obstacles there, and mainly attitudes 08:18.240 --> 08:20.160 of people in terms of upper-level management. 08:20.160 --> 08:24.840 Is that an attitude about business in general, or is it the computer industry and engineering? 08:24.840 --> 08:29.920 I think it's business in general. I still think that the computer industry is a lot 08:29.920 --> 08:33.600 more advanced in their attitudes than other industries. And it's because it is a young 08:33.600 --> 08:39.540 industry driven by younger people who have grown up in a world in which it's more acceptable. 08:39.540 --> 08:44.800 But it has not disappeared. And there still are, again, when I introduce myself, people 08:44.800 --> 08:49.680 look at me. And it takes a couple minutes for them to believe that it's really true. 08:49.680 --> 08:54.240 Thelma, you teach computer science at UCLA, and I'd be interested in what you see and 08:54.240 --> 08:59.200 the differences in your male and female students, if any. 08:59.200 --> 09:10.160 Well, I really teach at the graduate level. And well, talking about UCLA, there's one 09:10.160 --> 09:17.400 overwhelming difference that you see that transcends male-female, which is the large 09:17.400 --> 09:22.520 portion of Asian-Americans that are in the school. And interestingly enough, among that 09:22.520 --> 09:31.100 new community, you see almost as many women in engineering and in computer science as 09:31.100 --> 09:39.880 you do, this is both graduate and undergraduate, as you do, well, as many women as you see 09:39.880 --> 09:40.880 men. 09:40.880 --> 09:42.380 More so than among the American students. 09:42.380 --> 09:47.100 Yes, more so than among the American students. And among the American graduate students, 09:47.100 --> 09:54.640 you still see a smaller percentage. You see about 15, 10 to 15 percent women, while at 09:54.640 --> 09:57.240 undergraduate level, it's about 20 percent women. 09:57.240 --> 10:00.860 Okay, Thelma and Judy, thank you. Now, in just a minute, we're going to meet a woman 10:00.860 --> 10:04.820 who creates software for women, and we'll meet a woman who heads up a woman's computer 10:04.820 --> 10:18.600 project at UC Berkeley. So stay with us. 10:18.600 --> 10:23.200 Joining us now is Elizabeth Stott, co-founder of Rhiannon Software, creators of software 10:23.200 --> 10:28.840 for girls. And next to Elizabeth is Kay Gilliland, director of the Equals in Computer Technology 10:28.840 --> 10:31.840 program at the Lawrence Hall of Science at UC Berkeley. 10:31.840 --> 10:35.640 Elizabeth, Judy was telling us when she grew up in her home, she felt like it was okay 10:35.640 --> 10:39.040 to work with computers. Now, do you feel like the software that's out there for the home 10:39.040 --> 10:42.760 right now makes a young girl feel like it's not okay to work with computers? 10:42.760 --> 10:48.120 Most of it does. The artwork, the content, the way that the games are played, they all 10:48.120 --> 10:52.520 say, hey, this is a boy thing. The advertising, the whole industry has said this is pretty 10:52.520 --> 10:57.320 much a male machine. I agreed with what Judy said, it's like cars were in the 1920s, you 10:57.320 --> 11:01.480 know, a woman wasn't caught dead driving a car then. So we have this tremendous psychological 11:01.480 --> 11:06.200 barrier to overcome with girls. And when you talk about role models, that's one of the 11:06.200 --> 11:12.200 big way that we've addressed it is by very appealing, realistic, spunky, fun, energetic 11:12.200 --> 11:16.320 kind of girl characters that are having these neat adventures. That will appeal to girls. 11:16.320 --> 11:20.040 They'll say, hey, I'd like to do that. It's not like being a robot or something like that. 11:20.040 --> 11:23.840 As long as that's acceptable among the peer group, then it's okay. What sort of things 11:23.840 --> 11:29.680 have you done with your software that really is, say, oriented toward, well, not necessarily, 11:29.680 --> 11:34.760 say, little boy oriented? Well, they're oriented toward girls in several ways. The characters 11:34.760 --> 11:39.880 is one way. The style of the graphics is another way. Our graphics draw at a rate that the 11:39.880 --> 11:44.680 eye can follow, which is very appealing. We tend to find that people lean into the computer 11:44.680 --> 11:48.400 when they first see our graphics rather than leaning away from the computer like they typically 11:48.400 --> 11:54.240 do with other software. Can you show us an example? Sure. Yeah. We had such a good response 11:54.240 --> 11:59.840 from our adventure stories for 7 to 12 year olds that we designed something for 4 to 8 11:59.840 --> 12:04.640 year olds which does not involve reading. So with this program, Kristen and Sarah are 12:04.640 --> 12:10.400 two new little friends that are for a pre-reader group. And they have a different sort of adventures 12:10.400 --> 12:14.000 where you use three keys on the computer, but you don't have to type or you don't have 12:14.000 --> 12:18.200 to read. Now, this is the menu that Sarah would have. It shows a bunch of different 12:18.200 --> 12:23.280 activities that she could choose. She can put pictures in top, middle, bottom order. 12:23.280 --> 12:27.080 She can choose. In this one, you have weather conditions and they can choose clothes to 12:27.080 --> 12:32.320 wear certain days. You can tell nature stories. You can figure out what goes on a calendar. 12:32.320 --> 12:36.680 And you can put little stories in first, middle, last order. Now, this all goes along with 12:36.680 --> 12:40.320 the elementary school curriculum and the things that are being taught there. Now, here's some 12:40.320 --> 12:44.320 of the appeal of the graphics. You know, kids love that and they identify with riding bikes 12:44.320 --> 12:49.120 at this age, of course. So Sarah and her friends are always zooming around on bikes. So the 12:49.120 --> 12:54.120 idea basically is that the child really gets into this quote game. The computer is just 12:54.120 --> 12:57.480 kind of an artifact that's there. And then, oh, by the way, it's okay to work with computers 12:57.480 --> 13:00.240 because there's a way that you can play the game. 13:00.240 --> 13:05.360 They identify with what's going on. They make it real. They take it into their own real 13:05.360 --> 13:10.480 life. We've built these games around children. We haven't said, let's match children to the 13:10.480 --> 13:13.640 computers. We're saying, let's make a computer game that's going to match the interests of 13:13.640 --> 13:18.920 the children. So the animations are cute and the clothes. For example, if a kid wants to 13:18.920 --> 13:23.360 choose a bathing suit to wear in the snow, they can and they do and they giggle a lot. 13:23.360 --> 13:26.680 Grownups might think that the right answer is the mittens and the boots, but kids like 13:26.680 --> 13:30.560 to try different things. So we encourage them to experiment and have a lot of fun and just 13:30.560 --> 13:31.960 find out what the computer can do. 13:31.960 --> 13:35.000 Do you ever have boys playing with the software? 13:35.000 --> 13:38.880 You know, the extraordinary thing is that you have this girl picture on the cover. You 13:38.880 --> 13:43.480 say it's for girls and boys will say, aha, a new computer game. Let me try it because 13:43.480 --> 13:48.580 it is such a male identified machine. Whereas girls will say, oh, I didn't know they had 13:48.580 --> 13:53.140 anything for girls. And then they'll try it. And then what happens is that after they've 13:53.140 --> 13:56.960 used our software, they'll go on to other kinds of software. And that's really the point, 13:56.960 --> 13:59.840 to crash the barrier so they can go on to other kinds of things. 13:59.840 --> 14:04.960 Kay, what is your feeling about this, introducing, let's say, computers into this? 14:04.960 --> 14:10.880 Well, I think it's very important that we use whatever entry point that we have in order 14:10.880 --> 14:18.880 to make sure that girls have this experience. And many of the things that Rhiannon has done 14:18.880 --> 14:26.160 are used in the home. And this helps tremendously. However, it's also true that in the schools, 14:26.160 --> 14:32.480 something must be done. Many parents really don't have the same feelings of awareness 14:32.480 --> 14:37.800 of this. So that one of the interesting things that happened at the Lawrence Hall of Science 14:37.800 --> 14:43.720 recently, we were watching a little group of youngsters, preschoolers, using computers. 14:43.720 --> 14:49.320 They were all boys, 12 of them. And a mother was standing there watching the kids. And 14:49.320 --> 14:54.280 I said, do you have a son in that class? Oh, yes, he's that one over there. And I said, 14:54.280 --> 14:59.440 does he like it? Oh, yes, he likes it. Of course, he might rather be out playing. But 14:59.440 --> 15:05.600 yes, he likes it. I said, do you have a daughter? Yes, she's older. And is she interested in 15:05.600 --> 15:13.640 computers too? Oh, we never thought about it for her. And this is an intelligent, ordinarily 15:13.640 --> 15:18.280 aware person. But our whole society says to us, computers are for boys. 15:18.280 --> 15:21.960 And so it's up to our educational system to make sure that we introduce the things in 15:21.960 --> 15:25.920 a way that does not have an orientation toward one child or the other. 15:25.920 --> 15:29.560 Okay, now your program is called Equals at the Lawrence Hall of Science. And I saw some 15:29.560 --> 15:33.360 startling numbers. I think you call them startling statistics, which shows why equals is probably 15:33.360 --> 15:39.600 a good word. I think 7% of home computer users are women. 5% of the subscribers to Byte are 15:39.600 --> 15:44.920 women. 2% of PC buyers are women. Why do you think that is? 15:44.920 --> 15:51.040 I'm not sure that I can explain all the various reasons why that is. I mean, our culture says 15:51.040 --> 15:57.320 it to girls when they're very young. You open the magazines and you find pictures of men. 15:57.320 --> 16:10.520 You open that manual for the Macintosh and every entry picture is of a male. And so there 16:10.520 --> 16:15.640 are many, many reasons why. But I think what we have to accept is we need to do something 16:15.640 --> 16:22.760 about it. If awareness is a very important thing, then parents need to be aware, teachers 16:22.760 --> 16:29.400 need to be aware. And in designing the program, actually, Equals, directed by Nancy Kreinberg, 16:29.400 --> 16:35.760 started in 1977 as a teacher education program in mathematics. And it has developed in a 16:35.760 --> 16:39.600 number of ways, family math, equals in computer technology. 16:39.600 --> 16:43.480 Okay, what kind of software do you use in your Equals program? 16:43.480 --> 16:48.240 I brought along Gertrude's Secrets, which is from the Learning Company and is used widely 16:48.240 --> 16:55.520 by teachers who are aware of the need for software that is bias-free, that is interesting 16:55.520 --> 17:00.640 to girls as well as to boys. And those are some of the things we look for. 17:00.640 --> 17:05.240 How does Gertrude's Secrets really accomplish that? 17:05.240 --> 17:12.760 Well, a lack of violence. I think that's something that girls have done for us in a way. Many 17:12.760 --> 17:18.240 girls do not want the violent games, the war games and so forth. And so we as teachers 17:18.240 --> 17:23.640 have the opportunity to say, hey, I'm not going to have that in my classroom. And so 17:23.640 --> 17:30.520 the ideas that are presented are things that both girls and boys enjoy. And the learning 17:30.520 --> 17:37.280 outcomes are important for both, particularly important for girls, because attribute games 17:37.280 --> 17:42.360 such as this, spatial relationships, have been an area where girls have had particularly 17:42.360 --> 17:47.640 difficulty. And apparently they have very different experiences as little kids. And 17:47.640 --> 17:53.000 so if girls are school-dependent for this learning, it's important for us to have it. 17:53.000 --> 17:57.480 Okay, there is another project aimed at training women in computers, and it's called the Women's 17:57.480 --> 18:03.360 Computer Literacy Project in San Francisco. And Wendy Woods has a report on that. 18:03.360 --> 18:07.800 All these women have one thing in common. They know nothing about computers. They're 18:07.800 --> 18:12.520 at the Women's Computer Literacy Project in San Francisco, an intensive two-day school 18:12.520 --> 18:18.880 for women only in which Deborah Brecker teaches the basics in a unique and controversial way. 18:18.880 --> 18:23.080 Deborah Brecker has written the Women's Computer Literacy Handbook in which she contends that 18:23.080 --> 18:28.360 women learn differently from men. Men, she says, can memorize a set of instructions and 18:28.360 --> 18:34.360 then follow them. But women, she says, require an understanding of the concepts and the machines 18:34.360 --> 18:36.440 before they can fool around with them. 18:36.440 --> 18:41.200 I've been looking in research actually to see, you know, is that true? Am I the only 18:41.200 --> 18:46.160 person that notices these things? And what I saw is in game theory, what they point out 18:46.160 --> 18:51.240 is that boys learn rule games really young, right? Girls are doing process games. They're 18:51.240 --> 18:57.000 playing dolls. They're not rules, right? And so I think that that patterning, that early 18:57.000 --> 19:04.680 childhood patterning, leads into gender differences about how styles of learning. 19:04.680 --> 19:10.720 So what the women get are analogies. Brecker compares a buffer to a filling bathtub, RAM 19:10.720 --> 19:13.160 memory to mailboxes. 19:13.160 --> 19:18.540 Because the class is all women, there's a certain common background that I can assume. 19:18.540 --> 19:23.360 Everybody knows how to cook, right? They may not, you know, enjoy cooking or be gourmet 19:23.360 --> 19:26.560 cooks, but they all understand what a recipe is. They understand what ingredients are. 19:26.560 --> 19:30.120 So if they understand what ingredients are, then they know what data is because the data 19:30.120 --> 19:32.400 is the ingredients for a computer recipe. 19:32.400 --> 19:36.880 3,500 women ranging in age from their teens to their seventies have gone through this 19:36.880 --> 19:40.160 course, which is the only one of its kind in the country. 19:40.160 --> 19:43.920 The proof that Brecker's teaching method works is in hundreds of letters that she gets from 19:43.920 --> 19:49.440 students. Many of them say, I learned all I needed to know, which is the highest compliment. 19:49.440 --> 19:51.240 For the Computer Chronicles, I'm Wendy Woods. 19:51.240 --> 19:56.600 Yeah, Stuart, maybe Bite magazine ought to run those classes to get that 5% on up their 19:56.600 --> 19:57.600 way. 19:57.600 --> 20:01.160 That's a good idea. Gary, we have two people joining us now, and I'd like to introduce 20:01.160 --> 20:05.880 Adele Goldberg, who is the manager of the System Concepts Lab at Xerox PARC. Adele is 20:05.880 --> 20:09.520 also president of ACM, the Technical and Scientific Computer Society. 20:09.520 --> 20:13.720 And next to Adele is Jan Lewis, formerly with Microsoft and Infocorp, among others, and 20:13.720 --> 20:15.880 now president of the Palo Alto Research Group. 20:15.880 --> 20:19.760 Adele, well, there's actually a question for both of you. I'll start with Adele. In your 20:19.760 --> 20:23.560 roles in the computer industry and in the research work you've done, you have to predict 20:23.560 --> 20:26.760 sort of what's happening, where the markets are going to be, things of that sort. 20:26.760 --> 20:32.200 Do you see a market, a software market, say, for women specifically, or is that just so 20:32.200 --> 20:35.400 general? A word process is a word process, a spreadsheet is a spreadsheet? 20:35.400 --> 20:39.560 Well, two answers to your question. First, I don't spend my time predicting the markets 20:39.560 --> 20:43.760 as much as predicting the future and trying to come up with innovative new ideas that 20:43.760 --> 20:45.160 will change the marketplace. 20:45.160 --> 20:49.480 Secondly, I don't distinguish between men and women. I think they're people, and I think 20:49.480 --> 20:54.920 the previous segment discussing the computer examples, you kept talking about the child 20:54.920 --> 20:59.160 and exciting the child. I'm out to excite children and adults in the software that we 20:59.160 --> 21:00.160 present. 21:00.160 --> 21:05.520 Now, Jan, what was your experience? I mean, you've come a long way as a woman in this 21:05.520 --> 21:09.080 business. I mean, did you have hurdles? Did you have problems? What was the experience 21:09.080 --> 21:10.080 you had? 21:10.080 --> 21:13.560 You know, the interesting thing is there probably were hurdles and problems. I don't think I 21:13.560 --> 21:18.040 realized it until probably about five years ago. When I got out of college, the first 21:18.040 --> 21:22.120 thing I wanted to do was be a programmer because that was a good field for women, and I never 21:22.120 --> 21:27.800 thought of it in terms of discrimination. In 1974, I went into sales for informatics. 21:27.800 --> 21:34.400 I was one, I was the first female of a hundred-person sales force, and I really was in a fishbowl. 21:34.400 --> 21:40.240 At this point, a typical high-tech sales force will be about 50-50. At that point, I still 21:40.240 --> 21:45.000 hadn't thought in terms of discrimination. As you start getting toward the top, you start 21:45.000 --> 21:49.080 realizing that you really have more opportunities if you go off and you start your own company 21:49.080 --> 21:51.400 and you start your own thing. At least this is what I realized, and you don't... 21:51.400 --> 21:56.280 It seems to be a sort of recurring theme that the upper levels of the management of the 21:56.280 --> 21:57.720 company are difficult to penetrate, then. 21:57.720 --> 22:01.360 I think there are exceptions, but if you look at the examples that are out there, by and 22:01.360 --> 22:07.080 large the really upper levels have, in fact, started their own companies. This is really 22:07.080 --> 22:12.040 the direction I've gone in, and at this point I feel no problems whatsoever with anybody 22:12.040 --> 22:16.520 I deal with in terms of suppliers, in terms of clients, in terms of employees or prospective 22:16.520 --> 22:20.640 employees. I think what I've really done, the tack I've taken, is I have just simply 22:20.640 --> 22:26.000 ignored what may or may not have been the obstacles and gone for being the best in anything 22:26.000 --> 22:28.800 I do and going in that direction. 22:28.800 --> 22:34.000 Adele, is there some concern that girls, young girls, who don't get familiar with computers 22:34.000 --> 22:37.840 and so on, will be at some disadvantage when they get to be adults and get into the professional 22:37.840 --> 22:40.280 world? I mean, it might not have mattered whether you played with model airplanes, but 22:40.280 --> 22:42.480 it may matter if you didn't play with computers. 22:42.480 --> 22:48.360 I think that is true of not just girls, but boys as well now. It's like never having a 22:48.360 --> 22:52.400 pencil and paper in your hand and expecting to get a job when you're an adult. It's becoming 22:52.400 --> 22:56.600 more and more imperative to at least have an understanding of what computers are about 22:56.600 --> 23:00.600 and how you can use them. One of the things that have been talked about here today has 23:00.600 --> 23:04.800 been the importance of role models. I want to emphasize the importance of also having 23:04.800 --> 23:09.160 some jobs related to what you're interested in and getting some experience. I don't think 23:09.160 --> 23:14.320 we would hire any longer anyone who hasn't had some computing experience and done some 23:14.320 --> 23:19.280 real work in the computing field, even though they just graduated from school. You expect 23:19.280 --> 23:24.920 them to know and have experience using the tool, if not doing the science about the tool. 23:24.920 --> 23:28.480 Suppose you are a young girl, like we talked about Gary's daughter before. You just say, 23:28.480 --> 23:32.400 I don't like computers. I'd rather have horses or paint or something. Is that a concern of 23:32.400 --> 23:34.520 a parent because of what you say? 23:34.520 --> 23:41.440 There are days when I don't like computers and I'd rather have horses than paint. I don't 23:41.440 --> 23:44.600 think it should be a concern. I think that different people are going to be interested 23:44.600 --> 23:47.960 in different things. I have two daughters. I do not have computers in the house for them 23:47.960 --> 23:53.280 to play with. Right now I have pianos and art supplies and other people. I just assume 23:53.280 --> 23:57.600 that as they grow up, they develop their particular interests. I do expect them in school to have 23:57.600 --> 24:01.120 some computer experience and I will give them some as well so they understand. 24:01.120 --> 24:07.920 Do you see a positive trend here? Are we working in the right direction now? That more and 24:07.920 --> 24:11.120 more women are being involved in computer technology or not? 24:11.120 --> 24:15.200 Both in the early levels. I think there is a natural inquisitiveness on the part of children 24:15.200 --> 24:18.680 and as long as nothing stands in their way. In other words, as long as a computer is there 24:18.680 --> 24:23.000 for them to play with and nobody thinks it's something verboten for them, I think it goes 24:23.000 --> 24:28.920 in that direction. I think also in terms of business nowadays. I disagree, by the way, 24:28.920 --> 24:33.840 with that 2% of purchasers. I see women, the surveys I've done in the Fortune 2000, the 24:33.840 --> 24:37.200 number of women who are doing the purchasing is increasing dramatically at this point. 24:37.200 --> 24:42.520 So I see a great move in the direction of women as well as men simply using computers. 24:42.520 --> 24:46.240 I'm sorry, we're out of time. Thank you so much. We just have enough time to go to our 24:46.240 --> 24:49.640 commentator Paul Schindler for his closing thoughts. 24:49.640 --> 24:54.040 As the father of two girls, ages 5 and 1, the subject of this show has special meaning 24:54.040 --> 24:58.640 to me. In my other job as Senior West Coast Editor of Information Week, I wrote a cover 24:58.640 --> 25:03.580 story on women in computing. And frankly, it makes me as mad as hell to see how badly 25:03.580 --> 25:07.840 women are underused in the computer business. I think it should make you mad too, whether 25:07.840 --> 25:12.080 you're a man or a woman. Let me tell you why. If you're a woman, you should be mad because 25:12.080 --> 25:16.480 the accident of your birth put you at a permanent disadvantage in the computer business. Sure, 25:16.480 --> 25:20.160 your disadvantage in this field is less than in other fields, but so what? It's still a 25:20.160 --> 25:23.880 disadvantage. If you're a man, you should be mad because you're watching a terrible 25:23.880 --> 25:28.040 waste of human resources. I hope no one still argues in this day and age that women aren't 25:28.040 --> 25:32.240 as smart as men. If they are as smart, they should be half the DP workforce, but they're 25:32.240 --> 25:37.960 not. That means on the face of it that millions of women who could be the best people in computing 25:37.960 --> 25:42.680 are doing something else. That's a shame. Now, I'm not saying hire women because they're 25:42.680 --> 25:47.920 women. I'm saying hire the best person for the job, regardless of sex. That's my opinion. 25:47.920 --> 25:49.920 I'm Paul Schindler. 25:49.920 --> 26:05.160 I'm Susan Chase, sitting in for Stuart Shafae. In the random access file this week, Franklin 26:05.160 --> 26:10.400 Computer Corporation unveiled the first personal computer not made by Apple to be compatible 26:10.400 --> 26:16.260 with Apple software. Franklin filed for reorganization under federal bankruptcy laws last year after 26:16.260 --> 26:21.680 a lengthy legal battle with Apple over previous alleged copyright infringement. The new Ace 26:21.680 --> 26:27.480 2000 will come in three models, all priced under $1,000, about $600 less than Apple's 26:27.480 --> 26:33.080 2C and 2E models. Franklin says shipments will begin this week. Apple Computer continues 26:33.080 --> 26:38.420 to improve its own products. Apple will offer a memory upgrade for its 2E that will expand 26:38.420 --> 26:43.240 its memory to almost twice that of the IBM PC. Other improvements to be announced this 26:43.240 --> 26:48.160 month include a higher capacity floppy disk drive, a color monitor, and software that 26:48.160 --> 26:53.560 makes the machine more like the Macintosh. AT&T and Atari are reportedly negotiating 26:53.560 --> 26:59.080 an arrangement for Atari to sell some of its ST computers through AT&T. Such an agreement 26:59.080 --> 27:03.920 would give Atari a major customer for its new computer, while giving AT&T a low-cost 27:03.920 --> 27:10.520 entry into the personal computer market. Officially, both companies declined to confirm the negotiations. 27:10.520 --> 27:15.680 Get ready to put away your Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet program. A new program called Javelin goes 27:15.680 --> 27:20.120 beyond the current spreadsheet columns and rows by giving users the ability to look at 27:20.120 --> 27:25.280 data in almost a dozen different forms. Javelin allows users to see where data came from, 27:25.280 --> 27:29.560 the logic that determined the formula used, and which pieces of data are affected when 27:29.560 --> 27:36.080 any variable is altered. The program is designed for IBM PCs with at least 512K of memory and 27:36.080 --> 27:40.960 will sell for about $700. And now for more software news, here's Paul Schindler with 27:40.960 --> 27:41.960 his review. 27:41.960 --> 27:49.880 You know, getting organized must be difficult for all of us, judging from the number of 27:49.880 --> 27:55.160 software packages that promise to help. MaxiThink, for example, or Think Tank. But every time 27:55.160 --> 27:59.480 a need becomes clear, someone comes along and builds a better mousetrap, or in this 27:59.480 --> 28:05.600 case, a better thought trap. They call DaVinci a renaissance in thinking. They may be right. 28:05.600 --> 28:10.760 DaVinci is faster, cheaper, and more flexible than any other outline program on the market. 28:10.760 --> 28:16.080 It uses color well and includes both a calculator and a calendar. Your outline can contain up 28:16.080 --> 28:20.880 to five levels, each of which can contain 99 topics, although there's an overall limit 28:20.880 --> 28:26.400 of 255 headings. Each heading can be as long as 60 characters. Each can have 50 lines of 28:26.400 --> 28:31.480 text associated with it. This text can then be exported into your word processor. If you 28:31.480 --> 28:36.080 change your mind about the order of subjects, reorder them. If you decide to make subtopics 28:36.080 --> 28:41.040 into topics and vice versa, you can do that too. This thin book tells you all you need 28:41.040 --> 28:46.080 to know about how to run the program. That's how simple it is. DaVinci from Applied Microsystems, 28:46.080 --> 28:51.660 Rosewell, Georgia, costs $60 and offers the best outlining help on the market. It's not 28:51.660 --> 28:55.600 copy protected. For the Computer Chronicles, I'm Paul Schindler. 28:55.600 --> 29:00.960 That's it for this week's Computer Chronicles. See you next time. 29:00.960 --> 29:06.320 The Computer Chronicles is made possible in part by grants from AFIPS, the American Federation 29:06.320 --> 29:12.200 of Information Processing Societies, a non-profit federation of 11 national societies for computer 29:12.200 --> 29:18.320 professionals. AFIPS, leadership and service in computer and information technology. Additional 29:18.320 --> 29:23.880 funding is provided by McGraw-Hill, publishers of Byte. Byte's detailed technical articles 29:23.880 --> 29:30.040 on new hardware, software, and languages cover the latest in microcomputer technology worldwide. 29:30.040 --> 29:32.160 Byte, the international standard.