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[Continued.] No. 32. Alien AEL Macai LAY, of (Houcestor, Mass., fishermau and master iiiaiiiier, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. IJy Mr. Foster : Question. You are skipper of a schooner out of Gloucester ? — Answer. Yes. Q. AVhat is the name ? — A. The Noonday. ij. Where were you born ? — A. In Prince Kdwaid Island. ij. How many years have you been fishing '. — A. About twelve years. Q. The first part of the time for mackerel and at present for cod ?— A. Yes. Q. How do yen happen in here? — A. I came in here with a sick man from the Grand Banks. Q. And you have been in command of this vessel two years? — A. Yes ; about that. Q. Before that you were tishing Jis a sharesman?— A. Y'es. Q. How many years were jou (!od fishing? — A. Seven years, I guess. il Where !— A. On the Grand Bank. Q. Now, when you began to go cod fishing to the Grand Bank, how did yen supply yourselves with bait ? — A. We took it from home. We used to get some on the Banks in the summertime. Q. What did you take with you ? — A. Salt bait, pogy slivers. Q. Slivers are pogies and menhaden cut oft' the bones ? — A. Fish cut ort the bone each side. Q. What else? — A. We used to put that on, and what we used to pick up on the Bank; small halibut and other small fish. Q. How long is it since you began to go to Newfoundland for bait* — A. Well, it is about four years since I have first been there for herring. I guess we were there as soon as any of them. Q. When you go to Newfoundland for herring, how do you get it ? — A. We take it out of the seines. Q. How do you pay for it ? — A. ^^'e pay so much. Q. How much, usually ? — A. Well, there are certain times they charge pretty liigh. At other times they don't charge so high. W^e paid as high as "jSJa this summer, and took as much as we wanted. Q. How many times have you been in this summer for bait? — A. I have been in for herring twice. 82108 2328 AWARD OF THE FI.SHERY COMMISSION. Q. What else have you been for ? — A. Squid, twice. Q. IJow did you get squid T— A. Well, they caught them ; Jigged and took them alongside the tirst time, and we bought them salted the second time. Q. Who jigged them the first time f — A. The natives. Q. How much did you pay for them ? — A. Two dollars a barrel. (2. The salt 8(|uid , I guess. (},. How many barrels of mackerel did you take that year?— A. Well, I took off and on about 150 barrels, I guess. Q. Where did you take them ? — A. Most of them around the Magda- lens. Q. What was the next schooner you were in ? — A. The Easterwood, Captain (ralasky. Q. How many barrels of mackerel di«l you take in her? — A. Well, between ISO and 100. 1 could not be certain; ofl and on, about that. Q. Where were they taken ?— A. We caught them between the North Cape and around the Magdaleus ; up between the Magdalens and North AWARD OF THE PISjERY COMMISSION. 2329 Cape. Wo used to fish iu different places, but tbe most part was taken around the Magdalens. M. WMiat was the third schooner you were iu ? — A. The Charles P. Thompson. No, 1 was mistaken. The secoud schooner 1 wjis iu was the James Bliss. Q. Who was the captiun ? — A. .liimes Walsh. Q. How many barrels did you take iu her ? — A. T>vo hundred and forty. Q. Where were they taken ? — A, Part of them to the northward of North Cape, what we call IJradlcy IJaiik, and abroad ot!' North Cape. Q. Were any of those taken within three miles? — A. No, we didn't catch any. I don't know but we tried and got a few there, but not any- thing over a dozen or so. Q. Where was that t — A. It was to the westward of North Cape — what they call Tignish. Q. You thijik you caught a dozen barrels inshore ? — A. No, not a dozen ; we might have caught a dozen or twenty ma<'kerel to a man. Q. What was the fourth vessel you were in mackereling ? — A. The Cliarles P. Thonipsoti was the fourtli. Q. What year was that, do you remember .' — A. Well, it was about 18(i0, I guess. i}. Who was her captain ? — A. Kdward Cash. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you take in her ? — A. About 05 barrels; between that and U)(). We caught them up northward. Q. Was she a new vessel '. — A. No. The James IJliss was a new ves- sel. Q. Now 1 would ask you, so far as your observation goes, what is the principal lishing-grouiul for mackerel schooners in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A. Wliere I have principally tished in my time was around the Magdalens. That was the princi[>al ground in my going to iish. Q. Did you ever fish much oil the Bight of Prince Edward Island? — A. No, 1 never dul. Q. Have you been there ? — A. Yes; I have been there working up and down shore, but 1 never lished any there. 1 might have tried abroad off East Point, or abroad off" the North Cape ; but I have never been in a vessel that tished in the bend of the island, because it is a ]ilace where they don't want to fish very often. (j. Why not? — A. Because they don't like the ground. They don't like to fish. They don't call it a very safe place to tish. Q. Is it a place that is avoi»led by A. Fishermen ? Y'es. ii. Why ? — A. Because it is a j)hu.'e where, if they are caught with the wind easterly or northeasterly, we can't get out. Q. Y'ou lived at I'rince Edward Island liO years 7 — A. Y'es ; I was born there and lived there until I came to Gloucester. Q. Do you ever fish there from the shore .' — A. Well, I have gone fish- ing there from the shore. What part of the islaml did you live at ? — A. At St. Peter's, right in the bend. Q. Did you ever see boats fishing on the island ? — A. Yes. Q. I would like to know how far from the shore these fishing boats around Prince Edward Island go out for mackerel, or used to when you were there? — A. I would judge iu my way that they would go from three to fiv3 miles. Q. One question more ; as you have been sailing out of Gloucester now tor some years, what is the principal fishing business of Glouces- ter ? — A. I should think codfish and halibut the principal. 2330 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. (I" -A. Twtilve years. By Mr. Da vies : Q. You lived at St. Peter's ?— A. Yes. Q. How ]oufi since voii lived on tbe i»«liiii(l 7- Q. That would be imrt !— A. Yes. II. That was when you tirst went in tlie Moonlight ? — A. Yes. (}. You have never been on the island since you left there f — A. No. Q. How old are you now ? — A. About 33. ii. You lett the islaiul when yoit were about 21 ? — A. Yes. (). Are your people enpigetl much in St. Peter's in the Hsheries ? — A. They do go Hshing a good deal. They catch lish enough for them- selves any way. Q. That is just what I want to know. I never understood that yon engaged in the fisheries largely ? — A. Well, they catch always enough for themselves. I don't know that they catch any more. That is all, I guess. Q. There are no fishing stnges there? — A. No, they can't keep fishing- stages there. Q. It is a very exposed place ? — A. To my recollection that is so. Q. Then you never were at any of the fishing-stages fishing on the island ?--A. No. Q. You never were to Rustico, New London, Cascumpec, or Tignish ? —A. No. Q. You never saw them fishing there ? — A. I have seen the boats fish- ing there. Q. Will you venture the assertion that those boats fishing of! those places fish farther thiin three miles? — A. I should think ott' Kustico they tlsh as much as ten miles. Q. As a general rule, yqu think that ? — Yes, because it is a place with shoal water, and they have to go quite a piece off. Q. Do you give that as your actual opinion or mere supposition ? — A. My opinion is that I have seen them ages outside of ten miles. Q. Where ? — A. Where 1 have been fishing up and down in those vessels. Q. But you have said you never fished around Prince Edward Island 1 — A. Well, I said I have made passages up and down the island. Q. What year was that you made passages ? — A, Well, probably I have been — I don't know-=but I have been every year I have been in the bay. Probably we might work up from the northward up as far as East Toint. Q. Now, every man who was brought here from Rustico, and every mau at Kustico who has made an affidavit, has stated that three- fourths to nine-tenths of the fish caught in that harbor are caught within three miles of land. Mr. Foster objects to this question, for which, after a short argu- ment, the following question was substituted. By Mr. Da vies: Q. Here is a deponent, Alexander McNeil, who says: I would think the number of iinhing-bouts at Rustico harbors would number about one hundred and fifty. My twenty years' experience has proved to me that the best mackerel-fishinf^ arouud our coast is about a mile from the shore, in from 7 to lU fathoms of water. All the fish cauf^ht by the boats are taken within a mile of the coast, many of them with- in half a mile, durin^i^ the months of July and August, but during the months of September and October the boats take their catch farther out, say two miles or two and a half. It is a very rare occasion that they go out three miles or beyond it. Of the total catch in the J)oat3, over nine-tenths is caught well within the three-mile limit. AWARD OF THE FISUEKY COMMISSION. 2331 Have you suttlcieiit experioiice ofl Rustico Tlarbor to give evidence in coutrailictioii of that 1 have road ? — A. Weil, 1 state wliat I have saiil. I I'ave seen boats over ten miles flsliiiip for iua(;iss from call it fishing, lalcurs ; always -A. Yes, on. ilight or I don't m ?— A. ^e tried rd of it. I know North Cape, Prince Edward Island.) That (pointing to waterii between North Cape and Miramichi Bay) is what I call Bay Chaleurs Ushing. Q. Do you know Miscon Point if — A. Yes. Q. Did yon go around I'oint Miscon ? — A. I hav :e been to anchor there, not'tlshing. Q, Then you have been inside of Point Miscon at anchor f— A. Yes. Q. Were there other vessels there tco f — A. There might be. (.}. Have you seen other vessels there ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you ever tried to fish in that bay ?— A. No. il. Have you heard of other vessels tlahing there If — A. I have heard of other vessels lishing there. I}. Yon never tried to flsh yourself? — A. No, I have never flsho."» barrels one year, 150 another, 180 a third, and 210 another year. Were these very small catches ? — A. Yes. (^ And you never caught any within three miles? — A. I don't know but we might catch a few ; never anything worth speaking of. if. And you didn't try ? — A. We did try once or twice. (^ Had you a license to flsh when you were there? — A. I could not I'xactly tell you. (^ But you ran in to try ? — A. We were in making lee. . That is '75, '70, and '77 — only three years ? — A. Ditln't I tell you I was in the first trip in the N(/onday. Q. Did you go into Newfou,idland for fresh bait in 1871 for the first titne, or was it in 1875 ? — A. 1 told you Q. Just answer simjily ? — A. 1S74. Q. Then you were incorrect Just now when you said yon ciiught it that year on the JJanks ? — A. Well, I caught part of it. The first trip we went into Newfoundland, and the second trip got it on the Hiinks. Q. You went into Newfoundland in the spring for your first bait ' — A. Yes. Q. Where did you go .' — A. To Fortune Bay. (^>. Did you take a seine and eatch rhe bait yourself ? — A. No. i). Did you employ jteople there to catch it for you ? — A. Yes, ii. How many barrels of b.iit did you get ? — A. iSjinowhere about 40 barrels. (>. And you gave them •■?-'■"> or thereabouts ? — A. Not that year; it was .*5(» that year. (J. Well, now, in 1875 you say yon got 110,0)0 pounils of fish. What vessel were you in in 1870? — A. The S'oonday. Q. How mauv trips ? — A. One trip. (}. How many fish did you take?— A. 80,000—78,000. i}. Had you made any trips for fresh fish in the spring ? — A. Yes. Q. How many ? — A. Three or four — four. <,J. Where did you get bait for the fresh fish ? — A. We got it down the shore here; some in Prospect. (^ You caught the fresh bait yourselves ? — A. No ; we bought it t lie re. i). Did you employ people to eat lia\e them barred as long as six weeks waiting for the Americans to come for them ; that is the natives I am speaking of. Q. Have not the American cod-flshers, some of them, taken large herring-seines with them and used them for taking herring and barring the coves? — A. No; I haven't heard of it. Q. You are now going out on your second trij) ? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2337 Q. Now, you have given us an account of your voyages, in 1874, 1875,. 187d, and 1877 ; those are the years you used fresh bait f — A. Yes. Q. You don't recollect your voyages for 1871, 1872, and 1873 ; those were the years you used salt bait ? — A. Those years we used salt bait. Q. You alleged just now that during the years you used salt bait your voyages were superior to those made when you used fresh bait 1 — A. Yes. Q. Well, you don't remember your catches when you used salt bait ? — A. I don't remember the quantity of fish we took home, because I was a hand. Probably I might have known if I had inquired into it. Q. How is it you pledge your oath that during the years you used salt bait you took more fish than when you used fresh bait, when you don't remember what quantity of fish you took with the salt bait? — A. Well, I might have known nearly, but I could not tell exactly "'hat fish we took to a pound or so. Q. You have told me distinctly that you did not remember the quan- tities you took in 1871, 1872, and 1873 ? — A. No, I could not say ex- actly. Q. You can't remember ? — A. No. I know 1 got a good deal more money. Q. If you can't remember the quantity of fish you took how can you say you took more than in the four succeeding years ? — A. Well, I can tell, because the last two years I have been skipper myself, and the other two I have been with a man that had been in this vessel before I took her. I knew the number of fish because he and I worked together, and I found out what number. These other years I never asked the skippers probably the number of fish we landed. Q. Well, you still affirm upon oath that you took larger quantities of fish with salt bait th^n with fresh ? — A. Well, not with salt bait, but that and what we caught on the Banks. Q. You stated now that you took a larger quantity with salt bait than with fresh ? — A. Well, I didn't state that, but we catch bait on the Banks as well as using salt bait. I told you we were catching part on the Banks. Q. Then you say you caught a larger quantity when you didn't go into the coast of Newtoundlaud ? — A. Yes. Q. You are sure as to that now ? — A. Yes. Q. You can't tell the Commission what quantity you took during those years ? You can't remember ? — A. Well, I could not tell you the certain number. Q. Then how can you tell that the number was larger or smaller ? — A. Because I made more money. Q. Do you remember the amount of money you made in 1871 ? — A. Well, I could tell you, I suppose. Q. Will you tell us I — A. I might figure it up. Q. Will you tell us what money you made in 1871 ? Can you recol- lect ! — A. I could not exactly tell you. Q. In 1872 ? If you can't, answer yes or no. — A. What do you mean f Salt fish ? Q. What money did you make in 1872 1 — A. I made about $500 I think. Q. That is fresh and salt? — A. Yes. Q. For the season ? — A. Yes. Q. All the other bauds made the same f — A. Yes. (}. Do you remember what you made in 1873 ? — A. No ; I could not t^xactly tell you. 147 F 2338 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Do j-ou remember what you made iu 1874 ? — A.. No. Q. In 1875 ? — A. I can't exactly tell you what I made. Q. Iu 1870? — A.. I didu't keep any run of it like that. Q. You can't tell about 1870? — A. No; 1 didu't keep any run of it. Q. I suppose you can't say as to this year because it is not ended yet? — A. Probably if I figured it up I could tell you what I made. Q. Now, you say you have been four years into Newfoundland for bait. During the last two years you have been master and during the first two years you were a hand on board ? — A. Yes. Q. That is all ?— A. Yes ; that is all into St. John's. Q. Were you into any other port — Long Ilarbor? — A. No; I was in Cape Breton. Q. You were in St. John's once, that is, on the Newfoundland coast, in 1876?— A. Yes. Q. This year you have been in four times. Where have you been ?— A. I have been to Long Harbor, and I have been to Fortune Bay twice, and I have been to Bay Bulls once, and St. John's once. Well, I have been iu several places up and down the shore looking for bait, but did not get any. Ey Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Where did you usually fish on the Grand Banks ? — A. Well, I could not tell you the certain spot, because we fished all over it pretty much. By Mr. Whiteway: Q. Can't you tell the latitude and longitude of the place you fished ? — A. We did not flsh in any one certain spot. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Is it not a long way to go from the Bank to Fortune Bay ? Are there not places along here (pointing to the coast from Cape Francis to \ Cape Eace) where you can get bait ? — A. We might not find any bait there. We go all over looking for it. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. You go to Fortune Bay in the spring before you go to the Bank i at all ?— A. No. Q. Do you mean to say you go into Fortune Bay from the Banks and | then go out again ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, when you go into Fortune Bay is it on the Grand Banks you | are fishing or to the southward ? — A. It is on the Grand Bank. Q. Are you on the Grand Banks or on St. Peter's and Green Banks | when you go to Fortune Bay for bait ? — A. We are on the Grand Bank. Q. Always? — A. Yes. Q. Now, you say you can't tell upon what part of the Grand Banks I you fished? — A. No; you probably set trawls in the evening, and iff you find no fish you are under sail next morning. You are under sailj nearly every day. We were under sail nearly every day last trip. We i fish in 44 latitude one day, and next time we set trawls it will be in 44i. next time in 45. Q. You fish at different places ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you keep a log-book ? — A. Yes. Q. On board ship ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you that here now ? — A. No. Q. Could you tell the date you left fibbing at the Grand Banks to go[ into Saint John's for bait this year ? — A. I could not exactly say. ■f AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2339 Q. Can't you remember f — A. I dou't know if 1 could exactly tell you now. Q. Do you remember the date you got back after being in there ? — A. We got back the 24th of last month. Q. Well, now, you left Saint John's the 24th September ? — A. We got back the 24th. Q. Well, now, do you remember what time you left Saint John's ? — A. I left on the 22d September, Q. How long were you in Saint John's ? — A. Well, I have been Q. On that occasion I mean. How long had you been there ? — A. I had been there two days. Q. Well, how long had you been coming from the Banks into Saint John's ? — A. About 36 hours. Q. That altogether makes five and a half days. Then it takes you five and a half days? — A. Yes; and then I have been three weeks looking for bait. Q. But I am speaking of this occasion ? — A. Yes. Q. You were about live and a half days f— ^A. Yes. Q. You are clear upon that point ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, how came you to swear just now that the shortest time you were in there was seven days? — A. Well, I didn't say. I said I have been over three weeks. Q. You said you were thirty six hours coming in from the Banks ? — A. I said I was thirty-six hours coming in from the Banks. I didn't go directly to Saint John's then. But then when I got my bait, when I left I got it at Saint John's; it was salt bait. I was looking tor fresh bait and could not get it. We gave up hopes of getting fresh bait, and than went to Saint John's and got salt bait. Q. Then you were not correct when you said you were thirty-six hours ? — A. Well, you didn't ask me. You asked me in a different way. You asked me how long I was coming in from the Banks, and I told you. But I was longer than that looking for bait, because I didn't go directly to Saint John's when I came looking for bait. When I gave up every other place, I came to Saint John's. Q. You were thirty-six hours going to St. John's, and you were two days in St. John's ? — A. I was not at that time. Q. I was only speaking of one voyage and kept you to one particular trip. You told me you were clear it took five and a half days for the trip. — A. I didn't say such a word, that it took me five and a half on this trip. Q. Do I understand you now that you were not correct in making the statement that it took thirty -six hours to go into St. John's and that you remained in St. John's two days and took two days to go out again 1 — A. I left the bank and run for St. John's and 1 have been in there and got through my business before I left St. John's, and went all round the coast looking for fresh bait. Q. What business had you in St. John's? — A. We wanted to find out where we could get bait. Q. Had you any other business ? — A. Not anything large. Q. How long did you remain in St. John's to find out where you could get bait ? — A'. We came in on Saturday evening about dark and lay there until Monday morning. Q. Then where did you go to ? — A. To a place called Portugal Cove. Q. When do you go there f — A. We '7. ere there a night or so. We got there some time about four o'clock and were there until next morning. mmm 2340 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. You didn't get bait there 1 — A. No. Q. Where then did you go f — A. Up the shore. Q. To what place '* — A. Broad Cove. Q. Did you get bait there ? — A. No. Q. How loug did yon remain ? — A. We went there in the morning and were away next evening. Q. Where then ? — A. To the northward, to Bonavista. Q. Did you get bait there ? — A. No. Q. How long did you remain there f — A. Two days. Q. Where did you go from there t— A. To Heart's Content. Q. Did you get bait there ? — A. No ; we staid there three days. Q. Where did you go then ? — A. We worked back to St. John's. We worked on shore down along, trying different places. We tried the coves inside and along shore. Q. When did you get back to St. John's ? — A. The day of the week ? I could not exactly tell you. Q. How long did you remain there then ? — A. Two days. Q. Did you get fresh bait there ? — A. No ; we took salt bait. Q. What detained you that long getting salt bait f — A. Well, the first evening Ave were in there they caught a few squid, a very few, and we remained there until next morning to see whether they would catch, thinking probably thej' might strike in and we could get some. Next morning they didn't get any, so we took salt squid, and the wind was kind of ahead, so we didn't go out until next day. Q. How long did it take you around all this coasting voyage ? — A. It was about three weeks from the time we left until we got back. Q. Can you tell me when you left the Banks ? — A. No. Q. Now, don't you know a grea number of harbors and places where you could get bait between St. John's and Portugal Cove? — A. There have been vessels in eVery harbor from St. Peter's to St. John's and didn't get any. Q. American vessels have been in every harbor from St. Peter's to St. John's and haven't got any bait? — A. Not any fresh bait. They were looking for fresh bait. I don't know but some of them might have got it. Q. What time during this year did those vessels go into all those harbors between St. Peter's and St. John's and get no bait ? — A. From the middle of Inst month. Q. From the middle of September to the first of this month — during fifteen days ? — A. Well, some there might be from the first of the month; there might be some there. Q. That is American vessels in all the ports between St. Peter's and St. John's and got no bait ? Were you in any of those ports yourself ?- A. No; I have been there and to the northward of St. John's. Q. How do you know they were there ? — A. I have seen vessels go ing along there. Q. How many have you seen ? — A. Five or six. Q. Can yon name one f — A. There was one captain said he had been up and down all along the shore, from St. Peter's up and down, andj didn't get any fresh bait. Q. Where did jou fall in with him? — A. In St. John's. Q. Was that the first time or the last ?— A. The last time. Q. Did he take fresh bait or salt? — A. I was not in his company all the time.' I could not correctly tell you whether he got salt or fresh bait. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2341 Q. Now, you have detailed your expedition in for bait tbis year ; you I were in also last year I — A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me the time you left the fishing ground last year to [go in for bait T — A. No ; I can tell you the time I was gone. Q. Can you tell rae the port to which you went ? — A. St. John's. Q. Direct from the Banks ?— A. Yes. Q. You can't tell the time you left the Banks ? — A. No. Q. How long did it take you to go in ? — A. About 38 hours, I sup- pose. Q. Did you get bait in St. John's ? — A. Yes. Q, Fresh?— A. Y^es. Q. Did you return immediately to the fishing ground ? — A. Yes. Q. How long were you in St. John's I — A. I was there five days. Q. You remained in St. John's five days on that occasion last year ? — \A. Yes. Q. Were you detained by no other cause than the procuring of bait ? — |A. That is all. Q. Was there no bait there to be had ? — A. There was, but they could Inot catch enough at once, and we had to wait for the morning and even- jing catch, and buy what they would bring aboard. Q. Did you go in the harbor or remain in Freshwater Bay ? — A. The [vessel remained in Freshwater Bay. Q. Why did she remain there J — A. That is where they catch the I bait. Q. You did not go into St. John's ; was it not to avoid paying the light- Idues ? — A. No ; it was not. Q. State whether it was that or not. — A. No ; I don't know if it was [that ; it was not that. Q. Did you pay light-dues f — A. No. Q. How long did it take you to get out to the fishing grounds at the Jauks ? — A. I could not say. Q. Cannot you remember how long — 38 hours ? — A. It took nine days from the day we left to when we got back. Q. Did you make any other trip to Newfoundland for bait last year ? — Not from the Banks. We took bait from Cape Breton when going there. Q. The only two voyages you made in for bait since you have been laster are the one just referred to, when you went round to Bonavista iDd got salt bait, and one in 1876, when you anchored in Fresh- rater Bay, outside of St. John's, and got bait and came out again ^ — A. Tes. Q. Those were the only two trips you went in for fresh bait, except- !ug in Fortune Bay ? — A. That is all. Q. Fresh bait, I believe. Is very superior to salt bait for taking fish? — If it was on the Bank, it is ; but when you have to spend half your time looking for it, it is not. Q. Then, if you had plenty of fresh bait you would consider it far su- perior to salt bait for catching fish ?— A. Yes. Q. Did you ever get any ice in St. John's ? — A. No. (i. Where did you get your ice ? — A. Which time ? Q. At any time. — A. We got ice in St. John's the last trip. Q. You got ice in St. John's last year ? — A. Yes. Q. Had you no other business in St. John's besides that of getting bait ? — A. No other business. Q. Did not your men jig bait themselves ? — A. No. 2342 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Have you ever jigged bait there either when captain or hand? — A I never Jigged any bait in St. John's. Q. Did any of yonr crew f — A. No ; nor any of my crew. Q. Have any of yonr crew jigged sqnid in any other port than St. John's f — A. No ; not that I know of. While they were with ine I never saw them jig for sqnid. Q. You always employed others to get bait ? — A. They come along, side, and we bny bait from them. Q. You employ them to catch bait for you ! — A. They come alongside and they catch it. Q. Do they come alongside with squid to sell, or do they come and ask what quantity of bait you want, and you tell them and they go and catch it I — A. They come alongside with bait. They never come near except with bait. Q. They never come to ask whether you want bait or not if — A. No. Q. How often has that occurred that they have come alongside with bait ? — A. That is with squid. Q. How often has it occurred that they have come alongside with squid ? — A. All the times I have ever been there for bait, they have come alongside, and have had the bait — squid — in their boats. Q. Yon got salt bait that year ? — A. Salt squid. Q. Last year you got fresh squid ? — A. Fresh bait. Q. And you were five days in St. John's before you got it ? — A. Yes ; waiting till they caught it. Q. Do yon mean to say that they did not come on board to know what quantity of bait you wanted ! — A. They came on board the first morn- ing I was there and had bait in their boats. Q. And then you told them what quantity of fish you wanted, and they went and caught it ? — A. They had bait to sell and 1 bought what they had. Q. Then you told them what quantity you wanted, and they went and caught it f — A. Yes. At last they had more than I wanted. Q. Bait was very abundant ? — A. I did not want all the bait they had caught, the last morning I was there. Q. That is the only time you got fresh squid from the people there?— A. Yes ; the last time last year. Q. You got it the year before f — A. No. Q. That was the only time yon got fresh sqnid f — A. I got no fresh sqnid that trip, bnt on the first trip. Q. I thought you were in for bait only once that year? — A. I told yoa I was in St. John's four times this year. Q. You told me you were in Fortune Bay. — A. Twice in Fortune Bay and twice on the coast. Q. Yon have been more than once in St. John's this year ? — A. O nee in what I call St. John's. Q. Have you been at any other time on the coast besides at Fortune Bay?— A. Yes. Q. Where did you go ? — A. In Bay of Bulls. Q. When were yon in Bay of Bulls? — A. I went in there the last day of July. Q. When did you leave the Banks to go there ? — A. I was right from J home. Q. Yon went from home to the Bay of Bulls ? — A. Yes. Q. And got bait there, in how long a time? — A. They caught it thej same day we went in there. Q. And you proceeded at once to the Banks ? — A. Yes. AWARD OP THE FI8HERY COMMISSION. 2343 first morn- Q. How long was it before you got on the fishing groauds ! — A. About two (lays. Q. You got the bait the first day you went lu f — A. Yes. Q. Then you were only three day.s altogether in gettiug bait and pro- ceeding to the Banks? — A. Yes; I had come from home then. Q. llow do you reconcile that with the statement you made that the shortest time in which you got bait was nine days ? — A. There is a dif- ference. I was asked the time it took from leaving the Banks to get back. I did not go there from the Banks. Q. You draw a distinction between leaving home and going to New- foundland to get bait and going from the Banks there for bait ? — A. I was asked what time was taken betweeu leaving the Banks to get bait and getting back again. I don't know but that I was three weeks from the time 1 left home till I got there. Q. In 1875 you were a hand. Do you recollect what time you left the Banks to go into the coast for bait ? — A. No; I do not. Q. Do you remember how often you went in T — A. Once, I think. Q, Do you recollect to what place you went ? — A. To Fortune Bay. Q. That was the only part of the coast to which you went for bait in 1875, and you went there but onco ? — A. That is all. Q. In 1874, how often were you on the coast of Newfoundland for bait f — A. Once, I think. Q. Those were the two years you were a hand T — A. Yes. Q. How was it you said you were 10 or 12 times into that coast for bait before you were master, and six times since you were master ? — A. I did not mean in Newfoundland gettiug bait. I was asked how often I took fresh bait. Q. It is, then, not correct as you have stated, that yon were into New- foundland for bait ten or twelve times before yon were master. Did yon state that or not ? — A. I don't think I did — that I went into Newfound- land that number of times for bait. Q. As a matter of fact, you were there once in 1874, once in 1875, once in 1876, and once this year. Is that correct T — A. I have been twice this year ; once in 1876. Q. Then yon were there once in 1874, once in 1875, once in 1876, and twice this year ? — A. Yes. Q. That makes five times you went on the coast of Newfoundland for bait? — A. Five times altogether.* I have been four times this year, twice for squid and twice for herring. Q. You were there once in 1874, once in 1875, once in 1876, and four times in 1877. Is that a fact ?— A. That is the fact. Q. Any other statement you may have made in regard to the times you have been in for bait is incorrect ? — A. I was asked how often I had been in for fresh b.iit. Q. You were asked how often you had been into Newfonndland for fresh bait ? — A. I did not understand that it was only Newfoundland. Q. You were there once in 1874, once in 1875, once in 1876, and four times in 1877. That is a correct statement ? — A. Yes ; that is a correct statement. Q. Any other statement you made as to the number of times you went into Newfoundland for bait is incorrect ? — A. Yes. 2344 AWARD OF THF FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 31. Stephen J. Martin recalled on bebalf of the Government of the United States. By Mr. Dana : Question. 1 have learned since you were on the stand, what I did not know before, that vou have been engaged in halibut fishing? — Answer. Yes. Q. During the time you were in the Bloomer, were you halibut fish- ing!— A. Yes. Q. Where did you fish ? — A. Part of the time at the George's, but the biggest part of the time, seven yenrs out of the ten or eleven years, we fished in dittereut parts ot the Bay of Fundy, from Yarmouth to Seal Island. Q. That includes all the region about, I suppose. You have heard something about Gape Sable Island f — A. Yes. Q. During time you were fishing in that region, were you fishing deep seaor inshore? — A. In deep water; never within fifteen miles of the shore. Sometimes we sighted Yarmouth light or Seal Island light. Q. Did you ever see any other persons fishing as close inshore as three miles f — A. We were not near enough to see. Q. Did you go in at all t — A* Twice ; once into Bryer Island after herring, and once into Yarmouth after alewives. Q. When you were at Bryer Island, did you find any other fishermen there? — A. Nobody but ourselves. Q. Did you speak with any, either going or coming ? — A. No. Q. Did you get your bait at home ? — A. We went to Bryer Island to try and get some bait, but did not get any. We got 400 or 500 herrings and came right away. Q. Did you take bait from home? — A. Always. Q. Is it the practice among the American fishermen to procure the bait from home ? — A. Yes ; when going only that short distance, the^v always take their bait from home. Q. As far as your information extends, you know nothing of any hali- but which is not taken outside in deep water? — A. No. By Mr. Weatherbe: Q. What was the last year you fished ? — A. 1861. Q. Where did you fish ? — A. We caught one trip about 15 miles west of Yarmouth light. We could see the light on a clear night. Q. From Yarmouth and to the west? — A. Yes; and towards Seal Island. Q. Yarmouth was farthest you went west on that coast? — A. Yes;| unless we went up to Bryer Island. Q. You fished altogether west of Yarmouth ? — A. Yes. Q. You only fished at Yarmouth and west of Yarmouth ? — A. Some- times we would go as far off as Seal Island and Brown's Bank. We have | been eastward on that coast. Q. You never tried inshore fishing ? — A. No. Q. Did you ever land at Sable Island ? — A. Never in my life. Q. You never fished there in sixteen years ? — A. No. Q. You never fished for halibut lately ? — A. Not since 1861. Q. You stated, when you were here before, that halibut was a deep-sea | fish ? — A. We sometimes fished in 75 or 80 fathoms. Q. You did not make anything out of halibut fishing? — A. No. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2345 iiave bearer, ami landed my seines nnd boats without one sejile. Q. Whivt yetir was thutf — A. I uiiiiuot tell that. It was when I was in the IJlondel. Q. Was it 10, 15, or 20 .years ago ?— A. It was l.'i years ago. Q, That season after Hrst September did you try eatching mackerel in the usual way, with hook and line ? — A. Yes ; all I got. i). How many did you got ?— A. 270 barrels. Q. Where If — A. At the Magdalen Islands and broad off New London and about 30 or 40 barrels suuthoast of I'iast Point. Q. What was the last year you Anhod in the Gulf of St. Lawrence! — A. I think it was 18(»5. Q. Vou came from home here on a retiuest by letter or telegram. Did you bring any books or memoranda with you 1 — A. No. Q. You have not any means of fixing dates i — A. No. I did not know for what I was wanted, or what you were going to do with me. Q. Do you recollect being in the Gulf of St. Lawrence once wheu there was a cutter there, ami the limits within which you were to fish were pointed out ? — A. I do, well. Q. Tell me what the cutter was ? — A. I cannot tell her name, because there was iu)ne on her, but I heard the name of her. The captain was Captain Daly. Q. Where did she come from ? — A. From Halifax. He sent for me to come on board. Q. I should like to fix the time as ucarly as possible. You hardly remember the year f — A. I cannot; I was in Highland Lass that year, I am pretty sure. Q. ]3o you remember whether it was before the Reciprocity Treaty f — A. It must have been. Q. The Reciprocity Treaty began in 1854 ; then it must have been twenty- odd years ago f — A. Yes. Q. Describe what sort of a cutter it was, where it came from, where yon saw it, and tell the whole story. — A. He gave a general iuvitatioa to all American skippers to come on board and see where their limits to fish were. There were 30 or 40 sail of vessels round there, but they all cleared oat, except one or two, as soon as be oame in. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Where did that occur f — A. In Port Hood. Witness (to Mr. Foster). I staid there. The captain sent his boat down aloDgctide a vessel, which was there (I forget the name) and luld the skipper he wanted him to come on board. He went to another one, and then came round to me and said, ^'The captain wants you to go on board." I went on board. The captain told me what his orders were from Halifax, and he showed me his marks on the chart. I well recol- lect three marks. One was from Margaree to Gape St. George, and then a straight line from East Point to Cape St. George, and then an- other straight line from East Point to North Cape. The captain said, " If you come within three miles of these lines, fishing or attempting to fish, I will consider you a prize." Q. That is to say, you were excluded from three miles drawn from iwiut to point across the Bend of Prince Edward Island ? — A. Yes. He made those lines from the shore marks. Q. I want to ask you generally whether yon regard the Magdalen Islands as a safe fishing-ground ? — A. Yes ; as safe as any place in the bay. ' >i i! I If if li 2348 AWARD or THE FISHERY COMMISSION. (^. It JH rathvr boisturoiiH tliuro wUeti tlicru is a wiiuH — A. Whcro is it iiut * Q. IIow could yoii protect yoiuHcU ? — A. Tht'iu is no wind, hut you can niaUo a lot; under tlie iHland.s, because yon can ^o all round thuni. Q. IIow about the north ^Ium'o ot Prince lidwanl Ishunl ? — A. We consider it a very \nu\ place. i). Why t — A. You are embayed, and the tid. sets in there so front the easterly that it is almost impossible to beat out. When the wind has blown two hours the sea is so sharp a vessel can do nothing;. Q. Do yon rejjard that i)ortion ot the mackerel llshery which lies within three miles of the shore in the (}ulf of tSt. Lawrence as important and valuable to American iishermen ' — A. There is a very snndl part of the mackerel (taught within three miles of the land there or anywhere or at the Ma^dahMi Islands, that 1 know of, and I have always lished with all the tleet and vessels there, althou^j^h at times 1 have seen good tisliin^ at Mar^aree. Sonu*tinu»H at Margaree the vessels lisii within three miles of tlie land. That is all the important inshore tishinj^ I know of in the whole bay. Q. In repird to the herrin;*' tishery at Grand Maiuin,have you been in that neighborhood after herring 1^ — A. Yes, I suppose I was the nuiu who introduced that business. Q. IIow numy years ago was that ? — A. That is 25 years ago, I guess. Q. Did you go there to catch herring or to buy them ! — A. That is the way all our vessels do; they go and buy them from the iidiiibitauts there who tish the herring and freeze them. Q. Do you know^ of any herring being caught by American tishing- vessels in Hritish waters about (■ rand Manan ? — A. No; I never knew any American vessel go there to tish lor them. I have known theinliab- itants there to charter American vessels and the skipper, and to give the vessel such a part and the skipper such a part — say they would give them two shaies. The vessel would lie in the harbor and they would fish the herring, freeze them, and sell them. If there were four parties they would reckon one share for the vessel, one share for the captain, which with the others would make six shares. They several times wanted to charter me to come down in the winter. Q. Have you ever seen American vessels there with herring nets? — A. I never from tlio wind hits kliich lies inportaiit iiiiull part, imywliere tys lisluHJ IIUMI goor quintal. I}. Within the last few years? — A. Yes. They make a good deal of oil; Ihe.v ani well livered. if. And that |)oIlo«',k fishery, as you understood, is common to the boats of the two phuresl — A. That is what they tohl me when F saw the boats there together. i}. They make a reciprocity treaty for tlu^mselves? — A. That is as I understood it. At lOastport the people told me that if herring w<^re at Oraml Manan they would go over, and if they were on their side the l>eoi)l(^ of (irand Manan would come over and fish in West Hay. They never had any trouble. C^. Is your information about the Stat«M>f Maine sulllciently exten- sive to enable you to state wlu'ther tlu; fisheries of Maine, (!od and maay ? — A. I am not so well posted in regard to IJooth Hay of late years. A new firm from C'ape ('od has gr.ne there, and they say IS starting business there, i know the lishing luisiness went down there greatly. McClenticik, one of the principal ish-dealers, told un^ that it was al)out played out with them. i}. What is the Cape (!od firm fishing for ? — A. They are fishing for everything, I believe. They fit out vessels, ami buy fish, heriing ano a fleet. There are four or five vessels belong to the island and scat- tt red all round. I believe George Hopkins is the only one in that town wlio has made codfish this year. . Do you know anything about Portland? — A. I have not been at i 2350 AWARD OP THE FISHEEY COMMISSION. 1 Portland for seveu or eight years. But I know about Bucksport and Castine ; they have broken up in regard to fishing. Q. Tliey have stopped tlie business ? — A. All except a few barrels. Q. What did Uastine used to do ? — A. Castine used to be the maiu- stay of all fishing. Everybody went there to fit out, and it used to own a good many Bankers itself, and it used to supply vessels with salt and everything else. Now the salt-stores are all gone and the ves- sels are all gone. I don't know of one vessel that has gone out of Cas- tine to the Banks this year, and there used to be 70, 80, or 90 sail of Bankers fit out there yearly. There are more Bankers going out of Bucksport than Castine, because there are none from Castine, but noth- ing to what they used to be. Q. You remember the old bounty system ? — -A. I think I do. Q. What was it, and what was the effect of its withdrawal ? — A. It used to cost about nine shillings to the dollar to get it. Q. How do you mean ? — A. They would get an old vessel, and hire a crew to go in her, and the wages and expenses would eat up all the bounty and considerably more. Q. What do you mean by getting an old vessel ? — A. When the bounty was on, anybody who had an old vessel would let a man take her for nothing. If you had an old vessel you would say to me, " I will give you her to use this season if you will give me the bounty." The earning of the bounty would be no expense to you, and if I could make the vessel earn anything I would get it. That is the way bounty catch- ing was carried on where I live. Q. Would not that increase the number of vessels by keeping old ves sels afloat! — A. Yes ; vessels which ought to have been dead. That is the way the bounty sj'stem was carried on in our locality ; but there were vessels which earned the bounty and the bounty helped them. Q. The bountv was given exclusively on cod-fishing vessels? — A. Yes. Q. Did those old vessels which went cod-fishing, partly induced to do so by the bounty, go after mackerel any part of the year ? — A. They used to go after everything. Q. But not during the four months they were earning their bounty ? —A. No. Q. The rest of the year they went fishing for everything ? — A. Yes ; they did not go a great distance ofi". Q. Was the effect of withdra -ring the bounty to diminish the number of vessels and to place old and poor vessels out of employment ? — A. Yes ; old vessels that were not good for anything. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. A question was asked you whether fishing on the coast of Maine had increased or diminished, and you said it had decreased ; and you spoke of the number of vessels. Where did those vessels usually fish at the time to which you referred ? — A. Our vessels used to go to Lab- rador, Brown's Banks, and Western Banks, and all round. Q. Along the whole coast ? — A. Yes. Q. And to the Grand Banks f — A. Some, but very few; I went to the Grand Banks in one vessel. By Mr. Foster : Q. Did your vessels come to the gulf for mackerel ? — A. No ; not the old bounty catchers. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2351 ksport aud barrels. the maiu- it used to essels with id the ves- out of Cas- r 90 sail of tiug out of J, but noth- lo. all— A. It and hire a up all the When the man take ne, "I will aty." The lould make inty catch - ng old ves i. That is but there [ them. issels 1 — A. iuced to do —A. They r bounty? — A. Yes; he number uent ?— A. of Maine and you mally flsh go to Lab- 'ent to the ) : not the I mean the firms which By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You have named all the places where the vessels fished ? — A. The bounty catchers ? Yes. Q. You say the effect of the bounty was, as far as your persoual acqiiaiiltance with it goes, that people had to pay about niue shillings on the dollar to get it ?— A. Yes. Q. The vessels you spoke of as fishing from the several towns on your ^joaat where did they fish ? Did you think Sir Alexander Gait's ques- tion referred to the bounty vessels ? — A. I thought the bounty catchers were meant. The other vessels fished all over the shores. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. Fishing for cod or mackerel ? — A. Both, have carried on the fishing. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. I had no reference whatever to the bounty system. I want to know where those vessels you spoke of as sailing out of all the ports on your coast usually fished — whether they fished in the gulf or on your own coast ? — A. All over the whole coast. Q. Everywhere ? — A. Yes ; everywhere in the gulf, about home, and everywhere else. The same as they fish now. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. How far south of your place do they fish ? — A. For spring mack- ereling they go as far as Cape May. Q. Those vessels you speak of went and fished in the same places as the Gloucester fishermen fished ? — A. Exactly. Q. And they failed of late years ?— A. Yes. Q. And your coast fishery has failed of late years ? — A. Yes. Q. Generally ?— A. Yes. Q. Do you know the reason the fishery on your coast has failed ; is it overfishing ? — A. 1 always thought it cost all the fish were worth to get them, anyhow. Q. Has your fishery diminished of late years ? — A. It was nothing but unlimited credit that ever kept the fishermen up, I contend. Q. Then their credit failed f — A. Yes. Q. Is that the only reason ?^A. I don't know what other reason there is. That is reason enough, is it not ? They are not able to carry it on. They cannot make it profitable. Q. Is that the only reason you have to give ? — A. Yes. Q. That want of credit has stopped them ? — A. The credit has stopped aud the business has stopped. There is no profit in the business, they say. That is what has made it stop. Q. There used to be a profit in the business for years and years ? — A. I don't know about that. Q. Was there never any capital in the business? — A. There was some. Q. For years aud years there was capital in the business ? For twenty years! — A. Yes. Q. There was capital in the business twenty years, was there ? — A. I don't think I understand you. Q. Was there capital invested to carry on the fishing business on the coast of Maine ? — A. I suppose there was, or else I don't know how it could be carried on. Q. For a large number of years ? — A. Yes. Q. For 20 years ?— A. Yes. 2352 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. For the last live or six years there has been no capital in it? — A. Yes ; for about the last 10 years. Q. The fishing has been given up ? — A. Because they did not find it profitable ; there is no profit in it. Q. How is it they have failed ? — A. I cannot tell you more than there is no profit in the business. Q. For twenty years they found a i>rofit in it ? — A. I don't know about that. Q. Don't you know it ? — A. They did not show it ; if they made money they would be likely to show it in some way or other. Q. When there was a large number of fishermen or firms carrying on the fishery business during those 20 years, and had capital invested in it, do you know whether they made money out of it ? — A. No ; I cannot swear as to v.hat other people made. Q. For the last 10 years it has not been profitable ? — A. 1 know the business has all gone down. Q. Are the fish to be caught there now, and were they of late years ?— A. They fish on the same ground now as they did then. Q. Do you know that the fisheries have failed ? — A. I don't know. I don't suppose they have. Q. Do you know anything about it ? — A. I know as much as anybody. Q. How do you know as much as anybody ? — A. I am in the way of knowing what vessels bring in at Gloucester, Booth Bay, and Mount Desert. Q. For twenty years there was capital invested in the fishing busi- ness?— A. Yes. Q. For the last 10 years the capital has been withdrawn ? — A. With- drawn or lost. Q. Do you know why ? — A. No. Q. Can you tell me, in regard to those 10 years, when the capital was invested, anything about the statistics of the catches and vessels? — A. No. Q. For the last ten years can you tell anything about the statistics of the catches or vessels ? — A. I don't keep books, and I cannot tell you how much a man lost or gained. Q. Have you been engaged in the fishing business yourself? — A. I have not been engaged in cod fishing, and not much mackereling. No. 33. Wednesday, October 3, 1877. The Conference met. The cross-examination of EzUA Turner, of Isle of Haut, Deer Isle, State of Maine, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, was resumed. By Mr. Weatherbe : Question. Y''ou are acquainted with a place called Lubec? — Answer. I am. Q. I will give you the names of some places and ask you if you are acquainted with tbem : Lubec, Perry, Pembroke, Eastport, Cutler, Machias, Campobello, West Isles, Point Lepreau. — A. I am acquainted with Point Lepreau, Cutler, Eastport, and Lubec. Macliias I was never in but once. Q How often have you been in the other places ? — A. I cannot tell you ; a great many. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2353 ? — Answer. Q Recently, how often ? — A. I have not been there these three years. Q. In any'of them ?— A. Yes ; I was in Cutler two years ago. Q. Since the Washington Treaty came into operation have you been H\if.re ? A. When did that come into operation i 1 was in Cutler two [years f.^'o ; I have not been in Eastport these three years. [' Q. Can you give the Commission any statistics in regard to the fish- [ eries at those places ?— A. I cannot. Q. Have you taken any pains to obtain and make up statistics ? — A. No; that is as to the quantity caught, you mean. Q. Anything at all with regard to the tisheries. Have you made up ; statistics ?— A. No. Q. None whatever ?— A. No. Q. You have spoken of Grand Manan '! — A. Yes. Q. AVhen were you there last ? — A. Two years ago, I think. Q. How long were you there ? — A. I was there a fortnight. il. How many years were you there previously ? — A. Grand Manan lis a place I often go to. Q. How often have you been there since the Washington Treaty came liiito force ?— A. I cannot say. Q. Give the number of times as near as you can ? — A. I was at JGraud Manan two years ago, and staid a fortnight. I have been there foti' and on these fifty years. Q. Take the last four years, how long have you been there altogether; [one month ? — A. No; I never staid a month there. Q. Altogether, during the last four years, have you been there three [weeks?— A. Y^'es. (}. During the last tea years how long have you spent there ? — A. I [cannot tell. Q, Can you give any idea ? — A. I cannot remember. (^). We have gone to a great deal of trouble in regard to getting (statistics of Grand Manan fishery and the fishery on that coast; I want jto know what you know about it? — A. I have been going oft' and on to IGrand Manan, sometimes staying one day and one night, and sometimes itliree or four days, and once two weeks. That was the longest time 1 [ever stopped on one occasion at Grand Manan. (i. Generally you only staid one dav, and went awav the next day ? — iA. Yes. (). Did you take any opportunity while there to gather any statistics [with regard to the fisheries? — A. I knew how they were doing in fish- }. Do you know how many boats they use ? — A. They use boats and Ivi'sscls clear round there. (}. Did you, during the period you were there, make inquiries; and, lif so, to what extent, and from whom 'i — A. As to how many boats were jtLere? Q. As to statistics about the fisheries? — A. No. (I. Anything at all ? — A. No; 1 could see for myself, (i. Di(l you make any inquiries whatever? — A. Yes; about the fish- [iiijr, from Mr. Caskill, the largest merchant there. Q. And with regard to the number of boats engaged ? — A. I did not |ask the inunber of bo.vts engaged. (). You did make inquiries, from whom ? — A. Mr. Caskill, of Grand Manan. Q. He resides there now ? — A. He is there now. Q. On what subject ng tlic islands lying almg' the coast are Cauipobello, Deer Island, aud some minor island'' .' — A Yes. Q. IJesidcs (Jraud Manan ? — A. Yes. ***** # » Q. On the mainland, take from Lepreau to Letite, how many vessels and boats are em- ployed by liiiti.-h subjects .' — A. From Lcpreau to Letite I should think there are between 50 aud Hit vessels. That is what he says with regard to J3ritish Hahingves.sels. Mr. Mc- Lean further says: Q. IJefme the treaty of \Vashington, in }>*7\, how did you deal with the fish ? Did the Americans come in as nuich after the alirogation of the lieciprocity Treaty and before they commeiu-ed under the Washington Treaty ,' — A. Not catching herrings. Q. Did they do so after 1871 ' — A. Yes. Q. Tell the Commission how you dealt with the lierring before 1871 ? — A. We dealt with them as we do now. The Americans came down and bought them ; if uot, we loaded a vessel ourselves aud shipped them frozen to New York. Q. Since the Washington Treaty, the Americans have come down aud fished a great deal ? — A. Yes. Q. Are the fishing-grounds in your locality entirely in British waters ? — A. Our herriiif; fishery is altogether iu British waters- can waters. -all that 1 know of; I don't know of any in Ameri- Q. Is that correct ? — A. Yes. Q. Mr. McLean said also : Q. How nmnj' fish in the winter time ? — A. In the herring-fishing on our coast iu wiutir there are from 100 to 1*2."> American vessels fishing, suuill and large. Is that true? — A. I should think it was, if they call it fishing wheu Gloucester vessels come down. Q. Are there that number of American vessels fishing in those wa- ters ? — A. I want you to tell me what you call " fishing," whether by money, hook aud line, or nets. That many vessels go there to buy her- ring. If you refer to 12.3 sail of American vessels, 1 will grant that number of Auiericau vessels go there. Q. How do you know that ? — A. 1 never counted them, but seeing so large a number, and knowing so many, aud that gentleman stating the number to be 125, 1 dont doubt it. Q. He does not refer to Gloucester vessels. Is it true or not ? — A. I cannot swear to it. He says it is so, and I think it is. (J. He does not refer to Gloucester vessels ? — A. He does not refer to any places. Q. He says : Q. That is from Lepreau to Lutite .'—A. Yes, off Beaver Harbor, Black's Harbor, Black Bay, and Lepreau. Q. What size are the vessels ?— A. Tbey range from 10 up to probably 40 or 50 tons. Is that correct ? — A. No. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2357 fished a great .■oast iu wiuttr Q. Are you able to contradict it ? — A. Yes; as regards the vessels I Lave seen. Q. Have you any means of knowinj,' *. — A. No; except what I saw durinjr the six years I was there. Q, You have been to those places ? — A. Yes. Q. How often ?— A. 8ix winters runninj:. (^). Within the last four years, how often .'—A. I have not been there the last four years. Q. Ifave you been there the last ten years ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been there the last six years 7 — A. Yes, 1 think so. Q. Not since ?— A. 1 don't think so. (}. Are you able to speak with regard to the fisheries there during the last six years / — A. No ; but 1 never heard there had been any great change. Q. Have you endeavored to get any statistics in regard to the fishing on your own coast or any of those coasts .' — A. No ; I never knew they were wanted. Q. You never made any inquiries ? — A. No. Q. Then you don't undertake to contradict any of this evidence ? — A. I say there "over were 12a sail of American vessels of that description buying herring there during the six years I was there or one-fourth of that number. Q. I am asking iu regard to recently ? — A. I cannot say what were there last winter. Q. Mr. McLean said further : Q. All the rest of the fleet of li'O vessels iish for lieriing ? — A. Yes, of the 100 or l'2r> vessels. Q. Will you state to tlieConimission the process of fishing', what the Americans do when they coine down there .' — A. They come down in their vessels. They fre(inent our harbors iu blustering weather, and in fine weather they go o«t iu the nioruiug and set their nets. Is that correct ? — A. They never used to do so when I was there. Q. You are not able to say anything about the fishing there since always the Washington Treaty ? — A. That is new fishing to me. They used to stav in the harbors while I was there, and set their nets. Q. They have anchors to their nets and large warps, and set a gang of nets, two or four nets to a hunt. The nets are allowed to remain out all night and are taken up in the morning, if it is not windy. If it is too windy the vessels remain in harbor, and the nets have to remain ia the water until there is a chance to get them taken iu. The vessels do not take up the nets ; the boats are sent after them, and in blustery weather it is not a very nice job. The herring is taken on board the vessels. Sometimes if there is a large catch tlie men take the herring tu the beach and freeze them ; if there is only a small catch they freeze tl.eai on deck, but they cannot freeze the fish so well on deck as on shore. Q. These vessels which receive the herring as soon as frozen are different vessels ? — A. Yes. They are outside of the 12") I mentioned. Q. These are the American vessels which are in the barbers with buyers on board ? — A. Chiefly American vessels. « » # # » • « Q. It is much more convenient to land ? — A. Yes; with large quantities it is much more convenient to land. Q. Is it not a very great convenience and privilege to tlie Americans to be allowed to do so ?— A. I should think so ; I look upon it as such. Q. The Americans themselves consider it a privilege to land ? — A. I suppose so. Q. Obviously it is a very great privilege ?— A. It looks that way. I know that all our fishermen have to land to freeze the fish, and the Americans follow the same methods. There is no difference between them at all : at least I do not see any difference. They fish in the harbor just in common with our own men. Has that changed any since you were there? — A. Yes; I never saw I an American heave a net while I was there and never heard of one. I I never saw a Gloucester vessel have a net. 2358 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. nil Q. You lire acqiiaiiiteil with tbe Bay of Passaui wjuo lUy ?- Q. Mr. McLean says: -A. Yes. Q. Was that not at one time a great herrinn^-groiinl ? — A. It was once a xplendid fishing- ground. Is that correct ? — A. Yes. Q. Since tlie negotiation of tlie W'asliiuglo i Treiity, and since tlio AmericHUs have KsIiliI there, what has become of it? Q. Are you able to answer tbat ? — A. The fishirig-grouud is there yet. Q,. 1 will read you Mr. McLean's answer : A. It has been destroyed within the last two years. It is now no good whatever. You are not able to say anything about that ? — A. I did not know there had been any eruption there that had made any alteration in the bay. Q. Q. Tliis has been done by American fisherman ? — A. Not altogether. The American fish- ermen helped to do it ; a great many Auiuriuaus were concerned in it, but our tlslieruieu wore in it too. Q. Were your fishernien driven to it, in order to compete with the Americans ? — A. Thej have to do it ; they must do it. Were you aware of the nature of tie fishing that wont on there? — A. Yea. Q. Was there any trawling there in your day ? — A. No. That is a herring-ground. Q. Mr. McLean says: Q. Another mode of fishing — trawling — is practiced with larger fish, such as pollack, hud- dock, &c. Explain the effect of it * — A. Trawling has been pursued, as 1 understand it, dur- ing the last six or seven years. A. There was no trawling in Passamaquoddy Bay while I was there; so the people told me. I talked with them about fishing. Q. When you gave direct evidence I understood you to be giving evi- dence down to the present time with regard to the value of the Britisii fisheries ; you were not doing so ? Y^ou cannot speak of the fisheries within the last six years 1 — A. No. Q. You did not intend to speak of the last six years? — A. No. Q. Q. Along the coast of Maine, say from Eastport westward, there lives a lorge population i who fish entirely in our waters ? — A. Yea. They come from Lubec, Perry, Pembroke, aud Eastport, and along by Cutler, and westward of Lubec, and still farther away than that. Q. And from Machias 7 — A. I think so. Q. They all come and fish in our waters ?— A. Yes. That is since the Washington Treaty? — A. I think a good deal of thati is correct. Those boats come over and try in British waters, over atj Grand Manan. Q. Q. Within three miles of their coast there i.s no fishing of whi^h you are aware? — A. Yes. Q. And this is a population that lives by fishing alone ?— A. From Eastport and along] there they follow fishing for a livelihood, beyond question. Is that correct ? — A. Y'^es. Q. Q. So that a large body of American fishermen gain their whole livelihood in our waters! — A. Yes ; those that fish there do. Q. What would you say is the quantity of herring alone that comes to Eastport in tbe | course of the season — how many millions go to that small town during this period? Are you able to answer that? — A. I could not. AWARU OP Tin: FISHERY COilMISSION. 2359 in our waters' (^>. The witness answercMl it in this way : A. I slumlJ think, at the ln.wt crtlciiliitioi), from seven tj trn inilUous. A. IIo means lierrings by the count I suppose. Q. Are tliere from seven to ten millions ?— A. I cannot say. Q Ami of (ill the hcrriiiff ciiiiglit by you. moro than th'-eo-i{uartors goea to Amoricam, either for fooil or Imit I— A. Of frozen heirinfj .' Yes. {}. And of the 5(.">(»,(i()tl or ijKiO.UOti worth tlmt you take, what proportiou goes to the Ameri- cans .'—A. About one-third. Q. Where do vou sell the rest?— A. In the Doiiiiui lU and New Brunswick; some are shipped to the West Indies. 1 suppose you were not acr|uainteil witli those matters at all. ITave you any knowledge of them ? — A. Yes ; t have. 1 think that statement is correct. t^. Are you .acquainted with ^Ir. James Lord, of Deer Island ? — A. I am not acquainted in 13eer Island. There are two Deer Islands. I be- long to wiiat is called Deer Lsle. i). How many vessels have Campobello fishermen now ? — A. I cannot tell. A good niany of their skippers go out of Gloucester. I don't know how many vessels are owned at Campobello ; I could not give you an idea. Q. Mr. James Lord is fishing overseer at Deer Island .' — A. Yes. Q. He said : Q. Now, i.s it part of your official duty to ascertain the number of boats and vessels en- giijjed in the fishery there f — A. It is. Q. Can you tell nie what is the number of schooners or vessels f — A. There are 2S vessels engaged in the fishery in my district. Q. Of what tonnage ? — A. The aggregate tonnage is about 700 tons. Q. How many men are employed there ? — A. I have a memorandum. (Reads.) There were 171 men engaged in the vessels fishing. Q. How many boats are there ? — A. 234. # # # # # # » Q. Do the Americans fish much on the coast 't — A. Yes ; they fish iu common with our fishermen, on the same fishing grounds. Is that correct ? — A. They do. Eastport fishermen and those people are all one. Q. Q. How many vessels have they? — A. I should think they had full as many as our folks. A. Should think it is likely that Eastport has. Q. Campobello employs about how many vessels and how many boats ? — A. I could not give you exactly the number. I should say it was about equal to West Isles. 1 should not think there would be nujch dift'erence. Are you aware of that? — A. Eastport, Lubec, and Campobello are all one, and the people live in sight of one another, and get on agreeably about fishing. I talked with them about it wl>eu I was Jit Eastport seeing them. Q. Q. Then off Campobello there is about $180,000 worth taken by our people ?— A. I should say so. Q. And $180,000 worth at West Isles? -A. Yes. Q. And the Americana take an equal catch in both places ? — A. Yes. Is that correct ? — A. I should think so. il , l> 2360 AWARD or the fishery commission. Q. All within three ihIIps ? — A. Ym : with tlio exeeplioii ot' one or two vemteU from Di'Of Ih uiid thitt ^o uuiNJile. The chiel' ciitclieN Hi'e iiinliore. Is that correct .' — A. Yes. Q. Q. Well, wlien I asked yoii for (ill eMtiiimte of the eiitch, hikI you gnvi' me jjHO.OOO, ymi did not include in thiit mnount the tixli llmt win eiiujjht outside .'—A, No. You do uo include tliat either, I piesuiuu .' — A. No. Q. Tlmt is about n million .' — A. Yes. Q. Have you liny douht you arc uuderestiumtin)^ riUher thuii overrHtiumting it ? — A. Nm doubt that is under, if anylliinpf. Q. That is taken by Hritisli subjocts? — A. Yes. (^, Tlien the American tishermen, do they take lui tliese coasts as niueli every year as tin British sul)ject.M, or more I — A. I tiiiiik they do t'lilly as much. 1 liave no doubt. If 1 win going to siiy either more or less, 1 would say more. A. I don't tbiuk that is correct. Q. Do you know an.vtiiing about it .' — A. Nothiii}; more than that I was there lishing. I have not been there lor six years, but I know about it. Q. What was the (juantity when you were there — !^I)0(>,(K)0? — A. I can give no kind of estimate. Q. Would it be $r)0(l,(lOO .' — A. T could not give any kind of an eatiinatc. Q. Would you undertake to say it was not "ii.jOOjOOO ? — A. No; I could not say any amount. Q. Q. Is there any fish on the American shore at all ? Are you aw.treof any fish within the three-mile limit ? — A. There are none worth talking about. None of our fiuliermeu ever vi^it that coast for the sake of fish. What do you say ? — A. I say that is not true. Before I left h. itic there was a Grand Manau vessel in at Deer Island, the skipper of which wanted me to pilot him down to Isle of Ilaut not to catch mackerel. I would have done it if I had not had a boat of my own. Q. You are able to quality the statement by that instance; are you able to give any other instance ? — A. I have known of British vessels being in our waters. Q. Tell me what vessels they were. — A. I don't know. Grand Mauau vessels have no names painted on their sterns. Q. Then never mind their names. How many were there ; di 1 you count them? — A. There have been three which I have been acquainted with. Q. How long ago was that ? — A. Thirty years ago the first one ; and she belonged to Brier Island ; the last ones were on Sunday last or Sunday previous. Q. Those are the only ones you can mention at present?— A. Yes. By Mr. Foster : Q. Was it this summer you saw the two vessels ? — A. Sunday before last. Q. The quantity of ten millions of herrings was spoken of. Can you give the Commission an idea of what herring are worth each ? — A. The.v vary in size. Q. If you take the value of 1,000 or 100 herring !— A. If they aver- aged one cent they would do very well, I think. Q. Do they average one cent i How many are there in a barrel, and what is the price of a barrel ? — A. I cannot say. I had very hard luck. , tiie L'lii jtitios, ikiiow () hi AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2361 U I'roin Dii'f 1 -0,000. yi.u ; I tl lost A'MM) tlie llrHt cruise. n\u\ on tlic other three or four cruises I iiar to 1.5 barrels a night in one net when I left there. 'Awy were small sized herring; the nets were oneine-h mesh. They sunk the nets and lost some of them. The people had no means of smoking the herring, so they salted them for lobster bait. There are 1(10 sail vessels which make it a practice to go in the fall to catch her- ring. They make Portland their headijuarters. They strike for Wood Island, ami go eastward to Cape Porpoise, and clear along into Boston ]>ay, and down by the CJ raves, and they catch more herring than is caught anywhere 1 know of in British North America. Q. Did you mean to assent to the statement that American vessels iisli for herring in British waters as a fa(!t you know of? — A. Not with nets. They buy herring there. 1 never knew an American to have a net there, and 1 never heard of one. Q. Did you meati to assent to the statement that there were several fishing towns in Maine which gained their whole livelihood by fishing in British waters ? — A. 1 do not know of any such business. (}. Will you state whether you understand that there are any fishing towns in Elaine the inhabitants of which get their living by tishing in British waters ? — A. 1 don't know of one. Q. Did you mean to say, in answer to Mr. "Weatherbe's question, that there were any towns on the coast of Maine the inhabitants of which get their living by fishing in British waters? — A. No; but I do think the peoi)le of Eastport and Grand Manan are like one, and fish back and forth. Q. That is what yon stated yesterday? — A. Yes. Q. You say that the frozen lierring business, as far as you know, is carried on in British waters entirely? — A. Y"es. Q. lu answer to questions put to you yesterday with regard to the failure of the fisheries of Maine, did you refer to the failure of the fish- ing business or to the failure of the catch of fish ? — A. 1 meant the fish- ing business. Q. How is it as to the catch of fish oft' the coast of Maine? — A. I cannot say that the catch has materiallj- altered there, although fish are iiot so plentiful as they used to be. But I don't think that the change iu the catch makes so much difterence as the price and expense of get- ting them, for Maine is about bankrupt from end to end iu the fishing business. Q. When the fishing- vessels of your own town and its vicinity, and A» till tu ANVAWI» 0|i' Till'; KlHlll in t'OMMiMMIiiN i -: ■« ' fi \ lltooditM pliit'OM \oii M|tol««> ol n>Rl««itlii\ , M'tiro iMtMiiui'il in llM!iiiiH, ^vlinrii «l'tl lluvN nttoli (Itoii IIhIi f \Vi«M it ttll llit> mIimiom ot lli«« I'lillnil Mlitli, i<\\\\\ llio « wlioro lliiyv imw imiiiv II on. 'I'lim III) I ri|itiill\ ii>4 Mitoil xom^oIm iiM (iiivlttttiv, iiihI \m>iiI nil ovor tlin Mliuir < (yl. AHor » lull Ikiiltl III Ihli f \. All Ikiiiih. Tliov Mlil mil un nn mimiI> I'lM' liiililMil oiii wiiv im lor ohiIUmIi niul uiitiil in (lio boMi iiiil)j04 ol ilio tl'4|i«>riipr«MOII , mill ill II ^OOll llllltl\ pIlll'OM I KlIIIW II llllH 100 |M>« |i«>lll. ^», WIliU IlilM ili>nro«'lHli'il f A. rin< ll'ililliy lilHllH'tiH. H\ Mr. WimMI'imIio ; llsliin^ Ih lioltiM np III lli«> ltii,\ ol l'iinil,\ if A. 'I'lii\\ I'linnol ll\i> Im IImIiIII^, yO W IllMO llii\\ will. K). T l)ioii(>lii ,\on lolil Mr. I''o4lor lliiil mmi iIIiI not Uiiow Itiil lliiil iln ilsli \\oi-o tlioio, loM \on illil not Irv to iImIi ||i«>ni llioio? A. I iliil nm Miv\ wo fiio.l to li>li lor tlioni, I snv I ilhl not Know tnit wlinl llio IImIi inn; '*♦ ^■«''.> H'Mii 1 V 'ho yuino hm iimiiuI. <^>. Voiir II.Mliorinon ilo not now In IoimiIoIi thli on tito oonnt ol Mid no ' A. riiov lr\ Homowlioro! i( in llioir InisinoMM. <^>. I nniloisiooil \ou to nmv llioy lio not H.v lo onloli IImIi on llio omni of Miiinof ,\. I liiii not m\s; no. i). l>o lliov Irv f A, N OS ; wi> linxo plonlyol vonhoIm lunl ImmiIh iil (lio I into tr\iii)j lo IImIi on llio oohnI ol Miiino, ^>, Hill t\io wliolo hiiNinoNM, yon Nii,v, Im liiinUnipt ? A. I'rolly niiirli no; pioltv ninoh iilmnilonoil. Tlioro iimoiI to Ito I'lrt hiiII ol' \ohmoIm wlmli iKloii onl IVoin I'usUno; I «lon'l know ol ono iIiIm \oiu. No. Ml. SvMiKl, T. IxiiWK, of (lloiii'OHlor, MiiMM,, tlslionnnn. oiilloil on holml ot tlio iioxoinnioitt ol'tlio Cnitril >Siiii«>.s, Mworn ami oMiininoit. Uv Ml. Kostoi : nostion. Vonr bnsinoss Inis hoon I lint ol n ll.slionniin iiml MKippor ntj Dsliinp vo.s.sols till your lil'o* .\n,s«oi'. Voh. r iiijiokoiol f — A. I wns llioro in IS|.*». (^>. Von liiiil boon in tlio gnira };ooil niiiiiy tinio.s liol'oio yon w-orii iMp .^ (am, liail yon not ?— A. No; only ono y«»ar; ono (rip. Q. NVlion woix» yon llrst oaptain ? — A. In ISIti. i^>. What was (ho vo.ssol f — .V. ("Iiainpion. t^>. Whon woiv you in (ho jjnil' noxt f — A. In IS.M, Q. In wlial solioonov ? - A. O'Connoll. i). Woiv you in tlio >julf aflorwanl ? — .\. Yos. t^K In wlia( yoarsf— A. ISol, IS.VJ. ISo.l, ami IS.Vi. t^ Vou wtMv no( (hoiv in IS.M f— A. No. l^K As skipiHU" ovory (lino? — A. Yos. Q. Woiv you (horo in any odior vossols f— .V. I was llioro in Iho Ot'o| nowiv. Q. Whrt( yoars woro you in (ho jfiilf in (ha( vossolf — A. 18r>({, lS."h,| Mud 1S,">S: liiivo yoars. Q. Th»M» w ha( vSohtH>nor «liil >jo in T — .V. I was in (ho AUoro((a in IS.Wl Q. Ilow many years tiiti you roinain in (hat vovSvSol ? — A. From ISJIJ uniil hkst yoar. <»». '.» <,» ^• «.» ijh.' 1 «.► <.». toll 1 hiiH;! nliiK• ^llllJ(l lH'iuNr '/ «.» Ur III «.» 1,1. AWAKIt Ml)* Till I'MHIU'IIV roMMIMHM»N. 2'Mi:\ II III Hit* Mitir lilt IImimi> >i>riin f A, Nu, I ol MiiIiik' I oil tllO I'ltllHl il ■V mill IiimiIm nil \| rrnll.V iiiinli vohni'Ih wliitli lit liiwiiMiri'l roil \v»lllr Hilinn iHl'l. I WIIM Hl«i|t|IIM ^1 llir \iM t'l. M I will liiliK yoiii «>\|M yol I Ml or I'M Imi ikIm ; I roiilij not miy to loiii or t\\i\ iMiliri'i 1,1. IHIi.T \. NVt> iMiiili" Iwti lli|i'4, Illltl i»ot .110 liiiiich ciirli tiip. {). 'I'lilu' llhil yt'iH wlirii yon liiiil A\U liiHM'Ni i*iii li ol two lii|m, iiiiil <|| ilir ( diiiiiiImmIoii \vlii ml liiit? A. 'I'liK liiii/fMl itiiil wim ((im/lil iil, Ho i: \lll){tllll*ll^llll<«*, nlioiit. Itiill vviiy ln'ioNM, I titlnli. (,• Wi'ifiitiy ol' Iliit Mrnoiiil lii|i In |H(i;i ciiiit'lil iimlioii' 7 A. N«i, if. In IHIII wliiil \MiM ytnii nitth !f A. I tliiiik .'t'lfHiniii'lM «'iM'li lilp. \Vt< llllltll' two lllpM. (,l. I'oi wliiil t|niinlily wiim yoiir V(ut III ^lll^ni you tlifii lirciiHcd? — A. Yi'H ; I tliiiiU ho. i}. How iiiaiiy Imrn-lM iliil yon Kiif, in IM(»7?— A. .500 h.irnlH. i). Wluiri' wiMM Ihi'.y ttiki'ti '! — A. At, MiiKilHlrn l.^liintlM. if. IMtl yon HnIi anywlM-ni «iI««i ? — A. No; I don't think wf, ilni on |tlial trip. if. In IHIW wi'r<\you in tlir Knll"»K'ii"' — ^- ^'"<- AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2369 ) Cbetieaiuii ood iisbiiig there, y rate ?— A, eater or less [most even North. I?— A. Yes;,! times for lu I never saw | Bu Margaiee id catch was 25 or 30 sail. A. GO or 7(1 issels caught ;| [lerstood yon | did not get 0, yes. ■rels, and we ;;J 1. We saw 1 s flsb alike, It catch lOyi ippon often. 1 kuow that! the fleet l-\ •ge share, hem all dui )taiiied very most of our •e, but I do ire the fleet lien Islanik ice Edward [sland?— A. ler, and it is| It the mack' l^el strike in on the Cape Breton shore when going down ?— A. They generally do so.' To. And the vessels follow them ?— A. But it is not often that they fop more than a day or two. Q. Did you take the 50 barrels close inshore 1 — A. No ; we were five • six miles outside of the range of Margaree Island, I should think, tom the look of it. We were to the southwest of Margaree Island. Q. You were between Margaree Island and Mabou ? — A. Yes. q! When was this ?— A. In 1864. Q. Would you undertake to swear at this length of time what dia- ince you were then from the shore ?— A. Well, I think it was what I iave told you. [ Q. You then had a right to fish inshore? — A. Yes; I think we were (bout five miles off shore. Q. Would you swear to this ? — A. I could not ; we never measured it. Q. Can you positively state the distance ? — A. No ; no farther than I jtve done to the best of my judgment. Generally, a man can tell two Jiles from five or six. Q. I have heard witnesses say that they could not- tell three miles om five. — A. I do not know about that : but I should think they could. Q. You think that there is no difficulty in telling the distance from lore ?— A. O, yes. One could not toll it exactly, but I think a man ight to tell whether he was three or five miles off. Q. You think there is no difficulty about it ? — A. I should not think Q. Is your memory very accurate ? — A. Well, sometimes it is, and metimes I cannot remember some things. Q. What did you say you caught in 1874 1 — A. 315 barrels. Q. And that only ? — A. Yes ; and we made one trip that year. Q. When did you go to the bay ? — A. In July. Q. Is your memory sufficiently clear on that point to state whether it as in June or July ? — A. Yes ; it was in July, after vhe 4th ; it might ve been on the 8th of that month. Q. You are reported in the return to which Mr. Foster called atten- >u, to have been in the Gut on June 25th ? — A. No; that is a mistake a misstatement. Q. Where were you September 1st, 1874 ? — A. I do not know exactly; |ut I think that about that time we went to Canso. Q. Can you tell me how many barrels you had on board then ? — A. es. Well, I think that we had somewhere about 270 — 260 or 270 rrels. Q. You cannot remember the number exactly ? — A. No ; not within or 15 barrels. Q. You landed a portion of them ? — A. Yes ; 50 barrels. Q. Do you know David Murray, collector of customs at the port lere ? — A. No. Q. How often have you been in Canso ? — A. I was there every year I ^as in the bay. (J. And you do not know Mr. Murray ? — A. I suppose I may have seen im, but I could not tell him now if I saw him. I suppose I have been bis oflice. Q. Do you know the man ? — A. I kuow there is such a man. Q. Have you ever spoken to him ? — A. I could not say that I have, It I have spoken either to him or to his clerk. I have been at his office. ^Q. Do you know him? — A. I do not say that I do, but I have seen fin or his clerk. I have been at his office. 149 F im 2370 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. What did you go tbere for ? — A. To get a permit to land mack erel. Q. Were you accustomed to tell him what your catch was? — A. Yes, sometimes ; when he asked me I used to tell him. Q. Was he accustomed to ask you about it ? — A. I do not know that he was. Q. You gave voluntary information on the subject ? — A. No ; I did not tell without being asked. Q. If he did not ask you and if you did not givehim voluntary inforraa tion, how is it you say you were accustomed to state what your catcl was? — A. I told him it when he asked me about it, but I could not swear that he asked me about it. Q. Do you mean at any special time ? Don't quibble about it A No ; I could not swear that Murray ever asked me what my catch was, and I do not swear whether I know the man. Q. Do you or do you not know the collector of Port Mulgrave. David Murray ? Have you ever seen him ? — A. I do not know, but I have been at his ofiQce. Q. Have you there seen a man you believed to be him? — A. I do uo; know as I took notice. I went there for a permit ; it was given, me and I went oflF. Q. Did you ever state at his office what your catch was? — A. I do not remember that I ever did so. Q. Did you state to me a few moments ago that you had done so?- A. 1 do not know as I did. Q. Do you recollect stating that you told him or his clerk what you; catch was ? — A. I told you I did so if he asked me about it. Q. Did they ask you about it ? — A. I could not say ; they may anc they may not. I cannot recollect. Q. Do I understand you to say that your recollection is an absolutt blank on that point ; you do not remember stating your catch or whetbe: thev asked you about it ? — A. No ; I do not. Q. Were you there on October 20, 1874 ?— A. No. Q. You were not there at Port Mulgrave? — A. No. Q. Were you there September 1st, 1874 ? — A. Well, I was only tben| that once. I do not know when it was, but I think it was somew in the first part of September. That 'is the only time we were there! save when we came from home. We stopped at Pirate's Cove, two (y| three miles below Port Mulgrave. Q. Is that where Murray's office is ? — A. No. Q. And you do not know whether you saw him or not?— -A. No. Q. But you may have seen him ? — A. I do not know the man. I coulc^ not tell him if I saw him. Q. In this report to which your attention has been called, it is met tioned that the Alferetta, a Gloucester vessel, landed fish there the lst( Se]itember, and was there October 20th, 1874, on the second trip witl 170 barrels. — A. That is not correct. Q. What was your total catch that year? — A. 315 barrels or then abouts. Q. Mr, Murray reports it 400 barrels? — A. That is the way report get carried round, repeated many times; and they thus make one bavi more fish than he caught. I think this is the case sometimes. Q. Were you more than once in the Gut of Canso that year? — A. ATI were there three times on our way up, and on our way home, and ones to land some fish. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2371 rrels or then Q. Did you stop there when you were going home !— A. Yes ; to take fche 50 barrels on board. Q. In whose charge were they left ? — A. In Mr. Hartley's. Q. Did you inform him what your catch was ? — A. I do not recollect; jnt most likely I did. He most always seemed to ask what it was. Q. And if you did so inform him, of course you told him the truth ? — \A. Ves. I would tell him what we had. Q. You never fished in the Bay of Chaleurs f — A. No ; save once, rhen we tried and failed. Q. Did you try near the shore there f — A. We tried all over the bay. Q. Did you try there near the shore within the three-mile limit ? — A. ? Yes ; 1 think we did. >; Q. When was this ? — A. It was a number of years ago. I Q. During the Reciprocity Treaty ? — A. Yes, I think so. Q. Was a portion of the fleet accustomed to resort to the Bay of Chal- eurs to fish ? — A. Only a very few vessels were in it when we were fchere. Q. Were the fleet accustomed to repair there for the purpose of flsh- Ingrf — A. I could not tell, I am sure. Q, Did you never hear that this was their custom ? — A. I have heard that some vessels went there. Q. That a portion of the fleet did so ? — A. Some vessels — yes. Q. Did you hear that a portion of the fleet was accustomed to fish fchere ? — A. 1 do not know that I ever heard of more than 10 or 12 sail )f our vessels being there at one time. Q. And if they were there, you do not know whether this was the ise or not ? — A. Of course ; I only know what I have heard. Q. Did you never fish around Bonaventure ? — A. Yes, off" and on. Q. But any where along the shore? — A. No. Q. Have you fished about Seven Islands! — A. Yes, once; but I did jot catch anything. Q. You never fished there again f — A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether any portion of the fleet was accustomed to ish there at times ? — A. There were not a great many vfessels there ^hen ; perhaps there were 8 or 10. Q. But during the year ? — A. J do not think so. Q. You know that some vessels go there ? — A. Well, some few do. Q. Did you ever fish around the shores of Prince Edward Island ? — Yea, but very little. I have tried there off" and on, at different times, Mul over across to East Point, Magdalen Islands, and then come right pck to Malpeque. Q. Have you fished around East Point? — A. 1 have tried there. Q. Close in shore ? — A. I do not think that I was ever within the ^hree-inile limit. Q. Are you positive about this 1 — A. No. Q. You may have fished there within the three-mile limit? — A. Yes; )ut I could not say. Q. You were on the Alforetta in 1863 ?— A. Yes. Q. And you caught about 330 barrels each trip f — A. Yes. Q. Did .yon catch any portion of the first trip in 1803 within three liles of Prince Edward Island ? — A. We never caught a fish in sight of Prince Edward Island. Q. That year? — A. No; we came out of Souris and went straight to lie Magdalen Islands ; and we never left there until we started for lome, in the latter part of August, I think. 2372 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. J* ii ill Q. trip. Q. Q. Q. Do you know John F. Campion f — A. Yes ; he was with us that Do you know that he has been examined here? — A. Tes. Have you had his statement read to you ? — A. Yes, I have seen it And you heard what he said about that first trip in the Al fer- etta! — A. Yes. Q. He was asked — Q. What was your catch in the Alferetto that year ? — A. During the one trip that I was in her we canght 300 barrels. Q. Were they caught outside the three-mile limit or close inshore ? — A. Some were caught between East Point, Margaree, and the balance around the island and the Magdalen Isl- ands. Q. What distance were you from the shore?— A. One-third of that trip was caught be- tween East Point and the Magdalen Islands, and the baknce close to the shore of both islands. A. That is not correct ; we never hove to in sight of the island. Q. Your memory differs from his on that point? — A. Well, I cannot help that. We went right straight to the Magdalen Islands, and we left there the latter part of August. Q. And you are equally sure that you did not catch any fish that year within the three-mile limit, as you are that you did not do so auy other year ? — A. I am certain as to that year, because we were full of mackerel when we went home. Q. Do you mean to speak from your recollection as to that year, re- specting the distance you fished from the shore, as distinct from and bet- ter than for other years? — A. No; but I can tell when we catch fish at the Magdalen Islands — when we get whole fares there. Q. You are just as sure respecting other years as this year ? — A. I do not know about other years when we get fish at different places; but when I catch a whole trip at a certain place, I recollect that pretty well. Q. You did not catch that whole trip at the Magdalen Islands ?— A. Yes, we did. Q. Where did you catch the second trip that year ? — A. Mostly at F the Magdalen Islands, and between them and Margaree. Q. Did you take any portion of it at Margaree ? — A. No ; but the | last day we fished after we left Magdalen Islands, we were just in sight | of Margaree. Q. You do not appear to have fished, except on one occasion, within I three miles of the shore ? — A. I never caught any fish inshore to amount \ to anything. Q. In 186G you took out a license ? — A. Yes. Q. You had fished in the bay for 14 years previously, and though youj had never caught any fish inshore, you deemed it necessary to take outaj license then ? — A. I thought the license was cheap, and I had heard a| good deal about vessels being driven round, and so I thought I would] take one. Q. But you did not catch any fish that year within the three-mile j limit? — A. I do not know that we did, save at the Magdalen Islands. Q. The pi'ice of the licenses doubled the next year, and still you took! out another. What explanation have you to make as to your motives for doing so? — A. If we found mackerel any where inshore, we could | have fished there. Q. And still during sixteen years you had never taken any flshl within three miles of the shore? — A. Yes; but I might not have got fish at the Magdalen Islands that year, and then I could have gouej somewhere else. AWARD OF THE F.T8HERY COMMISSION. 2373 ith us tbat es. lavo seen it 1 the Al I'er- trip that I was ne were cau(;ht Magdalen Isl- ras caught be- i shore of both sland. ell, I cannot ads, and we ny flsb that 3t do so auy were full of hat year, re- | ■om and bet- ve catcb tish year?— A. I srent places; t that pretty | Islands 1- )l. Mostly ati 2 Q Had you an impression tbat the fishery would tail tbat year at Ikho Mittjdalen Islands ?— A. No ; the license di«l not cost a groat deal. I Sulypaid bait" of it, and I thougbt it best to be sure, and bo on the safe JEide. m Q. Then the possible failure of the fishing at the Magdalen Islands Ihad nothing to do with your motives in doing so? You must have had •iBome other motives ?— A. We then had a right to go anywhere we bad ta mind to. t Q. When you bad the license ? — A. Of course. I Q. But why did you do so, when for 16 years you had never caught %iiy fish there ?— A. We did not know what we would do. ■I " " " e three-mile I u Islands, till you took I our motives e, we could Q. Had you beard from others tbat the tleet were accustomed to take Itbe iish inshore f— A. Well, no ; I do not know as I ever heard of any- Ibody catching a great many fish within the three mile limit ; but I know i,the fish were caught 5, 0, 7, and 8 miles off shore, and the like of tbat. I Q. Or 4 miles off? — A. Yes; I suppose so; but I cannot say what lotbers have done. 5 Q. You have beard of the flsb being taken within 4 miles of the jcoast? — A. 1 suppose that some few have been caught there. Q. Have you so heard ? — A. I could not say. When talking about hese matters, fishermen do not state any regular distance. A man does ot say he caught his fish 4 or 3 miles off shore, but that he fished off ast Point or Malpeque, or wherever he may have been. They generally o not state the distance. Q, You have heard that the fleet fished off' East Point, and Malpeque, nd Margaree, without reference to distance ? — A. Well, I suppose that ff Margaree mackerel have been taken inshore ; more are so caught here than elsewhere. Q. Did you bear from the captains in the fleet tbat they were accus- med to take tish off the places I have named ? — A. Yes. I knew that hey do take them there. Q. Did you bear tbat this was their custom ? — A. I do not know that uy si)euial man came and told me be did so, but if I asked a man where e caught his mackerel, he would say at such a place, wherever it might e. Q. Did you ever hear from the captains in the fleet that they took heir mackerel at East Point, Malpeque, or Margaree? — A. Well, I ave heard of mackerel being caught at all those 3 places, but never eard of them having been taken at auy regular distance off shore that know of. Q. But what you heard from these captains had nothing to do with our taking out licenses ? — A. Well, I do not know as it did. When a au comes to the bay for a trip of mackerel if he does not find them at ne place be generally goes to another; and if you have a license you an go all round. Q. You liave stated that you did not do tbat? — A. I did hot because I found mackerel somewhere else. Q. Therefore you did not want licenses? — A. We did not know what we were going to do when we took them out. Q. But you bad bad an experience of sixteen years there ? — A. Yes ; but I did not know what would happen sixteen years to come. There is a good deal of difference between the two. Q. Have you heard that of late years the mackerel have changed heir habits somewhat, and are found nearer the shore than used to be the case?-- A. Yes; I have heard of them being caught by boats off Prince Edward Island, but never so nigh the shore as is now represented. 2374 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Uii'i m Iff 4?— A. Well, 0 not — on the make much I have been up and down the island, and I have seen boats fishing four miles off sind tliree miles off and outside, I think. •Q. When was this If — A. I do not know tliat it was in any particular yenr, but it was when I was up the island around Malpeque and came down by East Point. Q. ])o yon know the distance from the shore nt which mackerel are now taken off Prince Edward Island ? — A. No. I have not been in the bay since 1874. Q. Did your experience, then, inform you, or had r ' lieard it from others, that the habits of the mackerel had somew hanged, and that they were now found and taken closer inshore tu.tu they used to be? — A. No; I do not know as this wjvs the case. Q. You never heard of it ? — A. I do not think that I did. Q. But you stated just now that you had heard something about it ! — A. I do not recollectt saying so. Q. You said that the boats were now taking flsh inshore 1 — A. I have heard of that since I came down here. Q. But never previously ? — A. No ; I do not know as I ever did. Q. You said you have lost a good deal of money on some of these trips ? — A. No, not a great deal ; but I have not made much. Q. But you have made money 1 — A. I have a house, and that is all. Q. Were you a member of a firm ? — A. No. Q. You were merely a fisherman I — A. Yes. Q. For what firm did you go out ?— A. I have fished for a number of firms ; the last one was that of Rowe & Jordan. Q. Are you aware whether these firms made money or I could not say ; I suppose that some do, and that so fish after they are landed. I do not think that the ^ money, but I do not know. We used to get an average stock. Q. What would be a fair charter a month for a vessel of 75 tons? — A. I could not tell you. Q. Did you never charter one ? — A. No ; I never heard of a vessel having been chartered at any place for ten or twelve years ; but this used to be done. Q. Do you not know what a fair ordinary charter for a vessel of that size is ? — A. It would be about $200 I suppose for a large vessel. Q. But for a vessel of 75 tons ? — A. A vessel of small size for the fish ing season of perhaps nine mouths, would cost, I suppose, about $100 a month ; but I do not know for certain what would be the charge. 1 1 have not known any vessels to be chartered for a good many years. Q. Did you go to McGuire's or Hartley's when you went to Cape Bre- ton in 1874 ? — A. I went to Hartley's. Q. You are quite sure about thsvt? — A. We always fitted out there;] we never fitted out at any other place. Q. Had you during the seasons yon were fishing, or say in 1874, any I British fishermen with you — Cape Breton men, Nova Scotians, or Prince Edward Islanders, besides Americans f — A. I do not know that we had { any in 1874. Q. Do you remember whether you had or not? — A. No ; I do not re| member all the names of the crew. Q. In 1863, when Campion was with you, had you any other colonial I fishermen with you? — A. We had one man who belonged to the island. Q. Who was he ? — A. He lived at Gloucester then, and his name was | Frank Chivari, think. Q. It was not Simon Chivari ? — A. He went by the name of Frank. Q. Do you remember any other colonial fishermen who were with you I AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2376 flshing four y particulur lie and came iiackerel are b been in the leard it from hanged, and ;bey used to ng about it! ! — A. I have sver did. ome of these ch. I that is all. a number of \.i—A. Well, :| 1 not — on the 1 make much M took. 75 tous?— A. of a vessel i irs ', but this pessel of that \ sreasel. for the fish- j about $100 le charge. I ! ly years. ;o Cape Bre- d out there ; in 1874, any as, or Prince g| that we had I do not re- ther colonial | o the island. lis name was I of Frank, ere with you I iring any of the years when you were fishing t— A. No ; I do not know I do. We had one or two one year, but I do not know as I could collect their names. 'q. I would like you to do it if you can. — A. We had one man named Im KoHC, I think. Q. Where was he from f — A. Prince Edward Island. I think that ^ns his name. Q. What year was this ?— A. I could not tell you exactly. It was Ightor nine years ago, I think. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. You said you had been to Fortune Bay, Newfoundland, for frozen lerring ?— A. Yes ; that was 12 or 13 years ago. Q. You have not been there since? — A. No. Q. Are you aware whether the herring are now shipped from there in ilk or in barrels ? — A. We took them in bulk. Q. And frozen herring are invariably shipped in bulk? — Yes. I never lew them to be shipped in any other way. By Mr. Foster : Q. You told Mr. Davies you once saw as many as 200 vessels in Port (ood ?— A. Yes; a good many English vessels were in the fleet at the ime. Q. What year was this ? — A. I do not know as I could tell the year eX' Btly. I suppose it was somewhere about iiine or ten years ago ; it was the time of a heavy breeze, 1 remember. Q. Can you tell how many of these vessels were British ? — A. O, well, ' suppose that nearly one-half of them were so ; I should think that lese vessels numbered 80 or 00 sail sure. Q. They were not all flshing ves.sels, were they ? — A. Yes; some were )(l-tlshers and a good many inackerel-flshers. Q. When you were at Port Hood in 1871, how many American vessels fere there there then ? — A. The fleet was not very l.irge that year. Q. How many did it numl)er ? — A. I could not exactly tell ; sometimes greater and sometimes a lesser number was there ; perhaps there were sail. Q. Were you at Port Mulgrave June 25, 1874 ? — A. No ; we were then home. Q. When did you leave homo ? — A. After the 4th of July. We always ^ft home after this date, one year excepted, and that was in 1856, to the pst of my knowledge. We then went after poor mackerel. Q. Could the Alferetta have been there on the 25th of June, 1854 ? — Mo ; I do not think so. (J. Do you only think not ? — A. No. I owned half of her, and we tere on George's Bank at that date. We always go there up to the 4th IfJuly. By Mr. Weatherbe: Q. Did you call at Hartley's on the way through ? — A. I think that |fe did. By Mr. Foster: Q. You did not leave Gloucester that year until after the 4th of July? -A. No. Q. How do you know that you were not there on the 20th of October? There were you then ? — A. In the bay. We might have been going out that date. We generally leave the bay about the 20th or the 25th of October. 2376 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I'' " m4 Q. How do you know that you did not stop at Port Mulgrave on yoar way out ? — A. Because we never stop there ; we never did so in my life, Q. Did you stop at Pirate's Cove ? — A. Yes; we always do stop tbere, Q. Were you in Pirate's Cove on the 20tli of October, 1874?— A. W( might have been. We generally go out the 20th or the 25th of that moiitb though some vessels stay a little later. Q. You were in tlie bay somewhere on that 20th of October ? — A. Yes, By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You are mistaken about Port Mulgrave ; all the part you raeutioc is Mulgrave? — A. 1 do not know but that it is. By Mr. Foster: Q. Where is the place at which Murray's office was? — A. Itw.isa; the place we call Mulgrave. Q. The first date, 25th of June, cannot be right? — A. No. Q. But on the 20th of October you may have been at Pirate's Cove?- A. I could not say that, but we might have then been going out of tlit bay. Q. What did you stop there for that year ? — A. We had some mack erel to take in ; some 50 barrels. Q. And what else had you to do there? — A. We put a few empties ashore to make room for the others, and took in a little wood, water, &c. Q." How many empty barrels did you remove ? — A. As many as wt had landed. Q. Can there be any mistake at all about the number of mackerel ?- A. No, I do not think it. There cannot be any mistake. We did no: make but one trip that year, and we did not have a full trip. I am suit of that. Q. As to John F. Campion, I notice on the 33d page of the evidence British side, that he was examined and answered as follows : Q. This was in the year 1865? — A. I was then in the Alferetta still ; her captain n named Cash. Who was then captain of the Alferetta ? — A. I was her skijjper even year since she was built. Q. Were you part owner of her in 1865? — A. Yes, and ever since slit was four months old up to last fall. Q. Was Campion with you in 1805 ? — A. No. He was never with ii^ save on one trip. Q. Is there a Gloucester captain named Cash ? — A. Y'es, but I coul not say whether he was fishing that year. I only know one captaiu o that name. Q. In 18G3 Campion was with you on one trip ? — A. Y'es, it was on tb first trip. Q. Was it the first trip of the yoar ? — A. It was the first mackeit voyage. Q. Was he with you cod-fishing ? — A. He went on the first trip. V shipped him at the Island after we went down there. Q. He says you shipped him at Gloucester ? — A. We did not do so| he shipped at the island. Q. His evidence is as follows on this point : Q. And tlie next year, 1863? — A. I was also then in the fisliing business. Q. In what vessel? — A. The schooner Alferetta, Captain Rowe. Q. Did yon begin earlv that year ?— A. Yes ; we started in July. Q. Where did you eo f— A. We came to the Bay of the St. Lawrence. Q. Was she a Gloucester schooner ? — A. Yes. t AWARD OF THE FISHERV COMMISSION. 2377 -A. It was a: d some mack .8 many asw Yes. Wc went Lome with We caught ahout 300 bar- O Did yoii go that season to the Southern fishing grounds along the American coast ?— No I was in Gloucester when the vessel went out there, but I did not go. 0 Why ?— A. Simply because I did not think there was any money in the transaction. I mainod idle, as did many others at the time that year. I had never any faith in the South- fisberics, because I saw that a great many people who went there did not make much. >j. A good many others were idle as well as yourself? — A. Yes. Q. You waited until fishing commenced in the Bay of St. Lawrence ? — A. Yes. His t'videuce coutiuues : Q. Oue-third were caught altogethA outside the limits ? — A. tie trip. I think it was in August we returned to Gloucester, els. Q. He means packed, I suppose ; that was about the number we )acked. He shipped with us on that trip at Souris. Q. Are you positive about that ? — A. We went to the bay one hand ^hort ; men were not very plenty at Gloucester. Vessels often have to to that way. The cook's wife wanted to go down, and we accommo- iated her; and then when we went in this man wanted to go and we |hipped him. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. Did I understand you to say you had licenses for 3 years ? — A. No ; ^ut for 2 , 18CG and 1867. Q. In 1866, 50 cents a ton was charged ? — A. I think so. Q. And the next year $1 ? — A. Yes ; and I think the price was raised ihe third year to 82, but we did not take out any that year, and that is Ihe reason why vessels did not then purchase them, I think. Q. I should like you to state more fully what considerations you had addition to those you have mentioned, if there were any, for taking kut licenses. — A. Well, I do not think there were any others. When re had a license we could go any where without being bothered, and lis might have been the case 4, 5, and 6 miles off shore. Q. The sense of being secure whenever you went in the bay was your lotive, or part of it ? — A. Yes ; I suppose so. I have heard of vessels paving been sometimes so bothered, but this was never the case with le save once. By Mr. Davies : Q. During the 23 years you fished in the bay were you ever iuter- unted by the cutters? — A. \^es; once. Q. Where were you then? — A. Going to Gaspe; this was in 1852 or |853 ; I would not be certain about the year. Q. You were then within the limits? — A. We were not fishing; we ^ere going to a harbor in company with some 25 vessels. Q. Did they board you? — A. Y'^es; every vessel was boarde Q, From 1852 to 1866 you were never interfered with by the cutters? -A. No. By Mr. Foster : Q. Explain what happened at the time you wore boarded off Gasp6. — It looked stormy and quite a fresh breeze was blowing when we rere working up there. Most of the fleet were there, and the men on steamer had boarded them and forbidden them to go in ; and when" |re got there they boarded us and did the same thing. This occurred jlu)ut 10 o'clock in the forenoon, and we staid round till late in the fternoon ; it may have been 4 o'clock when they told us that we could in, and we did so. By Mr. Weatherbe : (J. Give the name of the captain of that cutter.— A. I could not tell 2378 AWABD OF THE FISHEBY COMMISSION i: if''' m either his name or the steamer's name. I forget them now ; it is so ago, iiud I do not know that I knew them at the time. No. 35. Moses Tare, of Gloucester, Massachusetts, fish-merchant and flsher man, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. ^ By Mr. Trescot : Question. You are a native of Gloucester? — Answer. Yes. Q. State to the Commissioners what your business and occupation have been in Gloucester ; what positions you have held, and the char- acter of the experience you have had. — A. I commenced to go a fishing when a boy. I worked on a farm, and afterwards, early in life, [ fished some. I have made mercantile voyages, and have, subsequent to that time, been in a commercial and fishing business, owning and fitting a large number of vessels, and I have held under two or three admiiiis trations office under the General Government. I have been president of a Gloucester Mutua' Fire Insurance Company for several years, and was, during our rebel! i mi,. four or five years doing business at Charlotte town. Prince Edward Island. I have done most of the different classes of business for New England men. Q. So that in various capacities, partially in the custom- house, par tially as president of an insurance company, partly as fisherman, and partly as fish- merchant you have had a large and full experience of tbe Gloucester fisheries ?— A. Yes, I have. Q. Now, with regard to the mackerel-fishing of Gloucester, has it in crtjiised or declined in the course of your experience ? — A. It has, in the ^ | course of my experience, done both. In my first knowledge of it our, vessels were small and the catch quite small, and it grew to beau im ^ portant business subsequent to 1833, 1834, and 1835. About our earliest fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, I should say, for mackerel was from 1832 to 1834. I don't remember the date of the first catching of; mackerel in the bay. I was in 1832 there myself as a youngster, for | codfish. I don't remember knowing anything about any mackerel in the bay or mackerel-fishing at that time, or previous to that time. Q. Then it grew up from t'uit time ? — A. The mackerel fishery in tlie^ Gulf of St. Lawrence grew up from about that time. That was the first,^ "We commenced by a vessel or two at a time. Perhaps the two tirstil years they didn't catch but a few hundred barrels, or a few thousand perhaps, and it grew from that time up to eighteen hundred and some of the earliest years of forty, forty-one, and forty-two. It afterward decliut d and nearly failed out. I had a vessel that came in, after being there for the whole season, with as low as 30 or 60 barrels. I have- knowi; t?ic luackerel to be very plenty on our coast for a series of years: and then to run down, and almost no fish ; only 100 barrels would bo an || ordinary fair catch for the season. Q. Now, what, according to your recollection and knowledge of the! Gloucester business, was the fleet employed in the mackerel fishery IdI the gulf when it was at its highest ? — A. I should think it was cat its| highest during the rebellion. Q. What was the number of the fleet employed then ? — A. I should] think we had over two hundred vessels. Q. What is it now in the gulf from Gloucester ? — A. We had whenl came away vessels that were considered to have gone there 68. Q. When you say that the number of vessels employed in the guKJ AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2379 it is 80 long mt and fisher- States, sworn iTes. ad occupation and the char- to go a fishing in life, I fished equent to that and fitting a three adminis- )een president Bral years, and s at Charlotte ifferent classes om- house, par- fisherman, and perieuce of tbe ester, has it in- .. It has, in the < ledge of it our ■ Bw to be an im out our earliest mackerel was; rst catching of ^ youngster, for' nackerel in the<| time, fishery in thej^ xt was the first.^ >s the two first:; few thousand "I dred and some It afterward in, after being irrels. I have? series of years t lis would bo an owledge of tliel ierel fishery iiii ik it was at itsl ?— A. I should! We had when l| ere 68. jred in the gulff IRs larger during the rebellion, and that the fishing of mackerel was ^ts height, must there not have been some exceptional demand for ickerel ? Was there not an exceptional demand arising from the de- ind for the Army ?— A. Yes ; everything ran high. But I think we had a larger number of vessels there before, say in '49, '52, or '53, but It so much tonnage. . , . , , ^ fQ. Then, if I understand you, withm the last series of years the ckerel fishery of Gloucester has declined rather than increased ? — A. has declined ; yes. . , ,. , Q. Now, has the mackerel fishery of Gloucester declined as compared th its cod-fishery ; so far as the industry of Gloucester as a fishing- rt is concerned,Vliat is the relation of the mackerel to the cod fish- —A. Well, I should think the relative importance of the two classes business, if I understand you aright, would be seventy-five per cent. fish to twenty-five per cent, mackerel. ir Alexander Galt. Are you asking him generally ? pyir. Trescot. I am asking him as to the relations that the two in- tries bear to each other in Gloucester. He says 75 per cent, codfish 25 mackerel. ir Alexander Galt. That is both on the American coast and in gulf? Mr. Trescot. Yes. Q. Do you know what is the relation of the cod fishery to the mack- fishery this year ? — A. Well, I should think it was 90 per cent. Q. Do you know what the relative values of the cod fishery and the ckorel fishery were last year in Gloucester? — A. I don't know. Q. Now, from your experience in the various capacities in which you ve done business in Gloucester, as fisherman, as fish merchant, as esident of an insurance company, as being in the custom-house, what iild you suppose would be the profit of fishing in Gloucester; is it ge or small ? — A. Small. Q. What is it derived from, the fishing or the handling of the fish? — The handling of the fish. The earnings of the fishermen are very all for a family to live on in Gloucester, as everywhere else. They or ten months in the year in Gloucester, and I think that the aver- e earnings of fishermen would be considered good when they averaged 100 apiece. Q. Then, I understand that the profit of the fisheries in Gloucester, you understand the industry of the town, is a mercantile profit and it a liahing profit ? — A. It is a mercantile profit. The fish are brought When the vessel arrives at the wharf they are purchased with a r competition, there being 40 or 50 purchasers, and the crews are id oft' as soon as the fish are weighed out, and the fish then become a rcantile rather than a fishing interest. Now, with your experience of fishing and what you have seen and own, have you ever been able to form an opinion as to the gulf fish- es ; that is, as to what per cent, of those caught there are caught in !> water and what per cent, within three miles ? — A. I have had some uaintance with it by my business, and being in the bay fishing for iorel myself two years, and knowing those who have been. Well, very small, per cent, caught Q. What would you say was the percentage ? — A. I had to set it down, I should say there was 15 bin the three-mile limit. You referred to the fact, as I understood, that you had been living [Prince Edward Island four years ? — A. I did. \VelI, I went home, rhaps. twice a year. 2380 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ' ]^M W Q, When you lived at Charlottetown, what were you doing? — A. 5lj main business was the purchasing of produce. The purchasing of outi was the main business, and as incidental to the business I have shi))pec 10,000 to 20,000 bushels of potatoes, and what fish I dealt in, that u mackerel, not codfish. I competed with two or three others for them Q. Can you give me the extent of your purchase of fish in any year ?- A. My purchases of mackerel were small. There was a Mr. Hall and oiit or two other parties there who owned and were running boats themselves, and their fish came to them. What fish I bought were such as tk farmers and fishermen living on the north side of the island caught aui brought into market without regard to those places that had stations, I could not say that I bought more than 200, or 300, or 400 barrels while I was living at Charlottetown. Q. Are you familiar with the habits and ways of the boat-fishermei on the island? — A. Yes ; I have been invited out there to give an opin ion in relation to the manner of their curing their fish. They were pre mature in the business, and didn't understand the business as we did I used to go out to Eustico, to Malpeque, to Souris, and across the islauc to Bouche, I believe it is, and those places. I used to see there, aud I understand the manner of their fishing. Q. Now, with regard to that boat-fishing, with your knowledge of i; in your four years' residence there and purchasing of fish from thost people, can you form any idea from what they have told you, or wha: you saw, as to the distance at which they caught fish ? How did tliej carry on that fishery, when did they go out, how far did they go, aiic when did they come in ? — A. The boats there are manned, except tk fishermen's aud farmers' boats, by three, and perhaps some smaller ouei by two, and up to four men. They go about daylight in the morning: between that and sunrise. The distance from the shore depends eutirelj upon where they find mackerel or codfish such as they are fishing tor and they are not likely to catch them within two miles — seldom withii that. Two miles is a very short distance from the land. Sometime they are inside of that, undoubtedly, and from that they go to three four, five, six, and seven miles, and exceptionally beyond that. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. When did you say you were living in Prince Edward Island?— i From the fall of 1861 to the fall of 1866. By Mr. Trescot : Q. And about the character of this fish — ^you have dealt more or les in them all during that time; how did you find the n f — A. Well, th- mackerel-fishing commences its course about the 10th or 20th of Juuf That would be my judgment. The earliest fish are seldom caught betort the 20th of June. Then the mackerel are poor and are like all otlit poor mackerel, even if taken care of they are No. 3. They incrciis from that and become No. 2, and when you get along to the middle o the 10th of August the mackerel generally, in seasons of good fishiiij are then very handsome fair mackerel. But no one can testify what tli mackerel will be next year through the season by what it is this year. Q. What was the preparation of the fish by these people from whoiil you bought? How did it compare with the preparation by thorougij mackerel fishers ? — A. Well, we should not sell any of them that tiui for a fancy article. They were put ashore in the little barns and places where they kept them and many of them were careless with them, aui would be a week, perhaps, filling a barrel. While they were waitioi are AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2381 1 you, or wha; rd Island?— A J le of tbem would be injured. But some that were acquainted with business cured them comfortably well. > Can vou give me any idea of the amount of fish caught around shores of Prince Edward Island?— A. Well, I think the year I was are they would range from 4,000 to 7,000 barrels— not exceeding 7,000 rrela, maybe. IQ. The shore fisheries 1— A. Yes; the island fisheries. iO. These fish were bought up by the merchants who dealt in fish and ^re exported ? — A. Yes. IQ. Who bought most largely ? — A. Mr. Hall and Mr. Carvell — Mr. »11, 1 think, most largely. IQ. What proportion of them did Mr. Hall get?— A. I suppose he got larly half. The rest were distributed among such as came into com- Hition for them. By Mr. Weatherbe : When (lid you leave the island ; ten years ago ? — A. I left the ind well, I left my business there in the spring of 1866. You have resided in the States since that ? — A. I have always re- led in the States ; my residence in the island was only a temporary ime for the season. IQ. How many years were you doing business there ? — A. From 1861 — le fall of 1861— until 1865. |Q. Have you read over the evidence with regard to the boat fishery (at has been given before the Comraission ? — A. No, I haven't read any 3timony. |Q. I presume you know most of the men residing in Rustico ? — I am Imewhat familiar with them. IQ. Do you know Alexander McNeil ? — A. Yes. IQ. Churchill ?— A. Yes. IQ. Aud Marshall ?— A. Yes. |Q. These are all respectable men ? — A. Yes. [Q. Men of truth ? — A. Yes j I don't know anything to the contrary, a» as I know. By Sir Alexander Gait : [Q. You spoke of the commencement of the mackerel fishery in the bay 1 being about 1830 ?— A. I think I said 1832 or 1833. SQ. I understood you to say it declined about 1841 ? — A. Yes, it fell off, think, about 1841. |Q. Then it increased again until the time of the war ? — A. No, not en- rely until the time of the war. It fell off again after that, but we were fin}>" as well in 1852, '3, '4 again ; that would be ray remembrance. It I think we got as many mackerel in the gulf in the few years of the ir as any other time, f Q. Now again it has fallen off, 1 understand you to say ? — A. Entirely; has almost entirely fallen off as far as any "profitable business is con- ferned. Q. You said there were only 68 vessels this year ? — A. Yes. Q. Has it declined periodically on the American coast also ? — A. Yes. IQ. I wanted to ask you just this, whether the fishing is good at the kme time in your observation on the American coast and in the Gulf of Y Lawrence, or whether it fluctuates and is good on your coast and bad tlie gulf in the same year and vice versa ."—A. I don't think there |uUl be a distinct line drawn there, but I think it is sometimes the case It it resolves itself into that in a measure. |Q. It is occasionally good on the American coast aud occas.unally in 2382 AWARD OF THE FISHERT COMMISSION. liis'i the gnlf, but not usually good on both coasts at the same time ? — A. I have knowu it to be good on both coasts, but when we can tiud it good at home we should rather fish there. Q. It has not been very good this year ? — A. No, it is not. By Mr. Trescot : Q. How does the fishing on the coast compare with the fishing in the gulf? — A. With the same kind of fishing, do you mean ? Q. No; but with the kind of fishing that is practiced, which is seine fishing altogether. How does the seine- fishing on the coast compare witb hand-line fishing in the gnlf? Is it or is it not cheaper ? — A. With the same quantity of fish taken, we can do it a good deal cheaper at home. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. Generally speaking, it is cheaper fishing ? — A. Yes ; it is cheaper at home, because at home we can catch 100 barrels to-day and pack them to-morrow. Q. You are only speaking now of the years when it is prosperous on your coast ? — A. Yes. Q. You are not speaking of an average of, say, 10 or 15 years ? Take the most prosperous fishing on your coast and the most prosperous years in the gulf, there is more to be made in the gulf-fishing ? — A. No, sir ; not with the same class of fishing. Q. I suppose you didn't make up any estimate ? — A. No ; but I have it in my mind and in my books. Q. Had you been in the business of mackerel-fishing on your own coast before you came into the gulf ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you carry it on yet ? — A. No ; I gave it up altogether. By Mr. Davies : Q. When you speak of 15 per cent, of the mackerel being caught in shore, do you embrace in that the mackerel caught by the boats ?— A, ^* No ; that has nothing to do with the provincial fishermen. 1 speak oi our catch. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You commenced in 1861 down there in Oharlottetown ? — A. Yes; the first business 1 did there was in the fall of 1861. Q. You had an establishment at Oascumpec ? — A. No. No. 36. Benjamin Ashby, of Noauk, Connecticut, fisherman, called on be^ half ol the Government of the IJnited States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana : y Question. Noank is situated to the eastward of New London ? — Anj swer. Yes, about seven miles from New Loudon. Q. It is between New London and Stonington ! — A. Yes, about midj way. Q. Are you now attached to the United States schooner Speedwell ?-| A. No, I am not, Q. How many years had you been fishing?— A. Forty-four this lastj April. Q. How old were you when you began ? — A. Nine years old. Q. You are Benjamin Ashby, junior. Your father is living, and a fish ! orman 1 — A. He is living, but he is too big to be a fisherman ; he liasj been. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2383 nosperous ( on your own »ndon ? — All- bur this lastl Q. Now, when did you first go in charge of a vessel ? — A. I had charge fcf a vessel thirty-three years. Q. You took charge of a vessel 32 years ago ?— A. Yes. Q. That was in 1845, was it ?— A. Before that. I had a vessel built 1843, and I had had charge of a vessel then two or three years. Q. Did you sail out of Stonington ? — A. I sailed out of Noanlc, Con- lecticut, every time. I never failed to go out of the port, and always rom the same custom -house too. Q. Now, in what kind of fishing have you been engaged during this lorg period ?— A. Halibut-fishing. Q. Substantially that has been exclusively your occupation? — A. Phat has been all my business up till the last two or three years, until gave up the business, and gave it into somebody else's hands. Q. Where have you caught your halibut ? — A. The majority of them )n Nantucket shoals. Q. What other places? — A. Upon the Georges, in May and June and >art of July; and for seven years, two trips a year, I have been over )n to Brown's Bank. I have been in sight of Seal Island twice, and )ape Sable two or three times. Q. With those exceptions, it has been on the Georges and Nantucket Ihoals? — A. What we call the Southwest Georges. Q. Those are nearer ? — A. Yes. , Q. What is the course of the halibut business — when do you leave )ort, for instance ? — A. We leave about the middle of March, Q. Tlien you go first to the Southwest George's?— A. Southeast from lantucket shoals. I Q. How long do you usually fish there ? — A. Till the 1st of May. I Q. Then after the 1st of May you go to the George's? — A. Yes, sir; ■k/rn stay until July. The last of July we are on the northeast part of the Jeorge's. Q. Then where? — A. For the last seven years I have gone across to jaHave and to Brown's. Q. Before the last seven years where did you go in the autumn ? — A. \'^e used to quit. I didn't know anything about coming over to this fehore at all for iialibut. Q. How is the halibut business carried on now from the places in that Bgion ? — A. It is not carried on at all from Noank, because there is only bne vessel fishes at all, and she has only been one trip this season. This jame vessel was to Mobile all winter. Q. These halibut you carry fresh to market ? — A. Yes, all fresh to lew York. Q. I'our vessels are smacks, are they? — A. Yes, with wells in them. Q. About how often do you run into New York? — A. About once a lonth. One trip a month is about the biggest we can do. Q. What kind of bait do you use ? — A. I don't know how to answer Fou — whether to say menhaden, hardheads, pogies, or what. Q. You mean the same thing, do you?— A. Yes; it is pogies or men* laden. I suppose you all understand it. It is one kind of lish alto- jether, but has a good many names. Q. 1 want you to state to the Commission how long you keep that bait in ice. You have a special way of icing it, haven't you ? Now, how long are you able to keep it in the way you prepare it for use J — A. Well, p you want me to plan out an ice-house f Q. No ; how long can you use it iced in the way you ice it ? — A. Well, le way I have put it up to preserve it 1 have fished with it when it baa 2384 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■■ J'" U 'J stood in ice 33 days, and i>ave caught fish with it just ns well as wheD we first commenced to fish with it. Q. Then you are able, with iced bait, to go out on those shoals of Nan tucket and the George's catcbins until you go back to New York ordina rily. You required no fresh supply ? — A. We never pretend to make any fresh supply. Q. You never did all these 40 years ? — A. No. Q. Now, tell these gentlemen how you prepare that bait to keep it sc well. — A. I have an ico-bouse. The ice is cut 22 inches square in oiu State the way we take it in. We stow two cakes in breadth and thret in length in the house, whether it is 12 inches thick or 20 inches thick. We leave a whole tier in the bottom. Then we take these pogies ami put them four inches thick ; then about the same thickness of fine ice. as fine as we can pound it — snow would be better. We put the same thickness of ice that we have of fish. Then we put another tier of tish, and then some ice again, till we stow from 7,000 to 10,000 of these fish right in one house. Then we fill all round tbe sides and all over the top with the fine ice, and then cover it with canvass to keep it. I bavt fished with it when it has been 33 days, and it has been good bait tc fish with. Q. Now you have a floor of cakes of ice ? — A. Yes, we call them it our vessels bed rooms. Q. What is the depth of pogies you put on? — A. About four inches. Q. Then four inches of fine ice ? — A. Yes. Q. Ground up? — A. We pound it as fine as we can with the axe: we have no mills. Q. Then four inches of ice, then pogies, then ice again ? — A. Yes, we fill it full. Q. What is the advantage of that mode of preparing the ice? — A. I; is all frozen solid and good. The top of the ice, when it gets frozen. bears its own weight, and it is not on the fish. It forms a kind of i crust upon the fish, and there is no air gets through it, I suppose, anc it does not make any weight on the fish underneath. Q. In case there is any melting, what is the eiiect on the bait?— A W'hen it begins to melt and the crust breaks away the fish begin to decay Q. Y^ou avert that or prolong the period by your mode ? — A. Yes. Q. If the water forms there does it draw up ? — A, No, it goes down the sides. We have it stowed so that the water that forms goes eacL side of this house. Q. It runs off? — A. Yes. Q. Is your method of preserving this fish practiced in any other place than your region of New London and Noank ? — A. 1 am not acciuainted. I have seen Uape Ann fishermen stowing bait, but I never went in to: the science of their stowing it. There is too much wood around the vi cinity of the bait. I have seen them stowing herring. I never sa' them stowing pogies. Q. Now, you say you have been to Brown Bank one trip ? — A. I havt been about two trips a year for seven years. Q. Did you use the same bait, prepared in the same way? — A. Yer Q. You had no occasion to go in for bait ? — A. No. Q. You never had ? — A. No. Q. Where is Brown's bank? — A. It is south of Cape Sable, abon forty miles from land. Q. Y^ou have been about two trips a year for seven years ?— A. Ye? Q. Have you been to LaHave Bank? — A. I have been about thesamt number of trips. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2385 well aa when B call tliemk lit four iucbe?. h the axe : n suppose, ani io. How far is that from the land. Nova Scotia !— A. About GO or Go kles from Cape Sable, about south by east, k). With the same results?— A. Yes. Q. You used your origiual pogies and nieuhaden that you brought jiii home ?— A.. Yes. Q. Now you know Cape Sable, and Cape Sable Island ? — A. I don't low Sable Island. I have never been down there — Cape Sable I mean. Q. How near have you ever been to the shore there fishing ? — A. I ve fished two trips in my life within sight of Cape Sable light. Q. Did you always see itf — A. No; once in a while; it was a rod ht; they have chauged it now. Q. How often have you been there ? — A. About three times in my fe-time in 42 years ; that is the furthest eastward I have ever tislied. Q. Aud you never fished nearer the land of Cape Sable than about [„il(»s^ A. No; I think it was full 15 miles, if it was not more. I n't know ho.v far you could see; it was very hard to see. It was a light. How long can you keep this h.ilibut in the wells on board your acks?— A. Just as long as we might stay down here in cold water; keep them in the well alive; we have had tliem in the well four leks, just as bright as when they were taken from the water. When go into Connecticut in the warm water they won't live. Q. They will live off Nantucket Shoals and off the George's? — A. rough March, April, May, and the fore part of June. Now when it becomes warm, if there is any danger of their dying, at do you do ? — A. We take them out and kill them and stow them ice. Do you take more ice than enough to preserve your bait ? — A. Wo ive two or two and a half tons generally to preserve our bait. We erally take 25 or 30 tons of ice on the trip. For the purpose of stowing the halibut f — A. Yes. Do you give them any food in the wells ? — A. No ; I have had m there when we have tin-own in a lot of menhaden. We have oped them up and thrown them into the wells with the halibut, and I ive taken forty-four out of a halibut after they have been in. But we in't pretend to feed them, because we hardly ever put any food in the ills. Do you find the halibut after such a long fast just as good as 3r : — A. Do I think he is? Yes, sir; I think he is the best fish iu world with the exception of the salmon. After staying in the well he is just as good as when he is caught? Yes ; because he gets rid of ali the filth, and he is all fish, what is of him. He is a splendid fish and I like to catch him. I would it nty meals any time to catch a good halibut. Do the New London people catch fish the same way with smacks? Yes ; the same way. And they fish in deep waters ? — A. Yes. Do you know anything about catching halibut inshore ? — A. No; unless on the Nantucket Shoals, iu shoal water on the George's. Well, I don't call that inshore. I mean near the mainland ? — A. Did you ever make port up here ? — A. Y'es; I have three times — northward of Cape Sable. What port ?— A. Stoddart Island. That is somewhere about Cape Sable ? — A. Northward of Cape ble 150 F 2386 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. m Ktei sr' Q. What did you go for? — A. To ride out two burricanes, two or three of the hardest wiuds ever I saw bk)w. That was iu — I don't rec- ollect exactly the year. It was in September. Q. Perhaps the Commission may all know, but from what size to what size do you catch these halibut? I don't mean you to take an extraor- dinary case, but how . T\m First' tliroii;;!! tl liroii^'li a |iii(>s, iind (,>. liy a irs. Q. What klav tlioin M Q. J)o y jiolc til roil/: AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2387 low ^our sue- m O. Take tlie poundflshiiifj alonj; the ooast ; perliaps yon could doacribe j^y' till, poiuids nre constructed ? — A. Yes; of course we can. NVeliad ftv seven stakes driven to set tluMn on, some in tliirty-live feet of water, j)iiie US deep as tliirty-eiglit feet of water. We ran tlieni in from that III the k'uder until they came into four feet of water. Q. You drove the stakes in ? — A. Yes. Q. IIow long are tbey? IIow high? — A. They are from thirty-live to forty- ei«ht feet. Q. They ;ire laid out in a straight line at right angles with the shore? — .First you drive these stakes down. Then there is a line rove [[irongh the bottom of the stake five feet from the end of the stake, [lirongh a hole bored in the stake. Then the net is bent on to these lines, and this net is hauled right down to the bottom. (}. By a sort of cable or chain ? Which is it ? — A. We have out-haul- lirs. Q. What keeps them down ? — A. These ropes haul them down, and we ^elay them to the top of the stake. Q. Do you have a block? — A. There is no block; nothing but the |olo through the bottom of the stake, Q. Uow far does this line run out to sea? — A. It doesn't run out at II. Q. T>nt how long is the line of stakes ? — A. Nine fathoms. Q. Then at the end you have little openings for the hsh to go into? — There is the mouth of the pound. Q. Are there not two circular or semi-circular places ? — A. No; otdy [lie, on the inner part of the pound ; there is what \vc call the heart. Q. That has two openings ? — A. Yes ; one on each side of the line. Q. So that whichever way the fish are going they will have to turn ?— A. Yes. Q. It is owing to the peculiarity of the fish that they will not turn a |liarp corner? — A. I suppose so. Q. Then in the heart there is a square box where they finally come Ipf — A. It is fifty to sixty feet square. We slack all these liiu's up. riiey are all cast off. We have out-haulers to haul the net right up to le top of the water. The flsli are all pursed up into one corner. Q. Now, is that a large business along that coast of Nantucket, Rhode Island, MassacliUvsetts, and Elizabeth Island ? — A. Yes ; the biggest |.shiiig in the world. Q. Has it very much increased ? — A. Yes. Q. How many men does it require to attend one of these pounds ? — It took three to attend ours — generally three. We had only one |()Uiid. (I. How are the catches, great or small ? — \. They are great. They liitch anything that comes. Q, What fish do you principally catch ? — A. When we first put on lie string we catch halibut and herring or alewives, next mackerel ; the (ext after the mackerel is the dog fish ; then we catch shark, about 25 TouihIs average ; then shad and the cliiguit. Q. Do you catch menhaden ? — A. Then scup after that. Q. What do you say of the scup as a fresh fish for market ? — A. It I the biggest fish in the Fulton market. jQ. What do you mean by the biggest fish. It bears the biggest rice?— A. I Q. Is there any other name for the scup ? — A. The paugey. j Q. That brings a high price ? — A. Y"e8. I Q. Is there a great deal of it? — A. Yes ; very plenty. But this year 2388 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. We liare ore iKii Jilli «::"■'-• ;■::■: m- they liave been very small, and we have taken them out. W turned out as much as 2,r>()U barrels of Hinall pau^fieH. They w sahtble in the market, and we let them go to grow bi^. (j. Doe.s the halilMit bring a hi^h or low i)nce!l — A. It ha.s run tli{> season from five to ten eents a ])ound. Q. Hut generally the halibut is abundant iu the market and the price Is low f — A. Yes. liy Sir Alexander Gait: Q. Is the prit^e yon mentioned that which you would get for tlieiii| when you brought them in i — A. JSo. By Mr. Dana : Q. Now, can you tell me how many vessels are engaged in cod-fl8liiiij[ for the New York market from your town? — A. There are 32 or 33. Q. Solely in that business ? — A. Yes; altogether. Q. When do they go to the Banks ? — A. The fore part of April. Q. AVhere ? — A. To Nantucket Shoals altogether. Q. Now, 1 want you to describe to the Court whether there is an abiiii I dance or otherwise of cod on the Nantucket Shoals ; how it is as a coil fishing region. — A. Well, it is very big field for tishing cod. Last yoarl they found them plentier than for twenty-live or twenty-eight yearsj They have beeu very plenty all the season. Q. This season? — A. Yes; they have plentier than for a good maiivl years back. Kiglit through the summer they have caught them venj plenty anywhere from eighteen to twenty-five fathoms of water. Q. How often do they go iu to New York? — A. Once a fortniglit.l about ten trii)s, from the first of April to the last of September. Tliiiij they quit that ice fishing, and along October and November they ciurv| them alive in wells. They generally Ciirry ice. Q. Y'^ou say they run into New York how often ? — A. Once a forti uight. They have ten trips of ice-fishing and four trips in the wells. Q. Now, how many ves.sels from New London engage in siipplvi New York with fresh codfish ? — A. Well, I have looked over the list! Somewhere between twenty five and twenty-eight. There should bd more. Q. Is Greenport engaged in the same business? — A. Yes. There arel Lot near so many vessels. Q. Well, these vessels, you say, are all smacks ? — A. Yes. Q. What tonnage ? — A. Anywhere fiom 20 to 45 tons. Q. When they have a fare, about how mauj' fish on the average iirl they able to take in ? — A. About 2,500 to a vessel, f^i ;ii ' more audi some less. Some have beeu iu with 4,300 or > KK)< freslj ii>li Q. How much did they sell for by the por . From three ami! half to eight cents. They averaged about its a pound Q. What would be the average catch to la ? — A. Wei., there ani about five men to a smack. Q. Uow do you fit them out, on shares i — ^A. ^ fs. They averagei about three men to a vessel on shares, and a few ih. n by the raontliai| $20 and $25. Q. lias this fishing for New York market with fresh fish been fouii profitable ? — A. No; they make a living. They Just about make enoiif:li| to live through the winter an«l start evfu next spring. Q. 1 suppose generally those engaged as merchants in it. doing a inerj cantile busjiie.xs, make more money? — A. The men iu Fulton marlit;i| make moie money. There is where we leave our money. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 23'^9 n I tliink you stated tlie nnml>or ami quantity wore as large as tbny .feV liatl bt'cu f— A. Yes. I (). I)i. What seasons. How long are they there ? — A. Well, they are there 1 tlio fore part of June till the last of October. Q. They are caught in Vineyard Sound ? — A. Yes. Q. Tliey send them mostly to Now York ? — A. Y'^os ; they are all pre- pared for the New York market. By Mr. Da vies : Q. I have only a question or two to ask for information. Do you mean |() siiy that these halibut in the tanks live for four weeks without food It all"?— A. Yes. Q. And that they will keep up there ? — A. Just as bright as when put Q. In fatness and weight ? — A. Yes. Q. How do you account for it ? Do they get food in the water? — A. [don't know anything about it, but they are just as bright after they |ave been four, five, or six weeks, and just as lively as when they were liken. Q. Do you change the water ? — A. We have about six hundred holes tlie bottom of the vessel. It is right throught the bottom, and the sea jraslies in through it. Q. Do you say you didn't know anything about halibut on the Nova Jcotia and Dominion shores until the last few years! — A. For the last even years. (}. Have you gone up among them at all ? — A. No ; I never was there ntcliing halibut. Q. There is the Island of Cape Sable 1! — A. I never went round it. I lade Cape Sable light three times. Q. That pound-fishery ; what coast is it on? — A. The States of Con- lecticut and Massachusetts. Q. Do you embrace Massachusetts in your statement about the pound- sliery? — A. Yes; that is where we fished last season. Q. How far off from the shores do you have these pounds 1 — A. Maybe 'nindred feet on the shore. We run a leader from the shore right iito thirty-six or thirty-eight feet of water. Q. Do you catch mackerel in them ? — A. Yes. We got a lot of mack- |rel, some 280 odd barrels, and sent them to New York. Q. They come pretty close in there? — A. Yes; right along. Q What takes them in?— A. I can't tell. }. Is it bait? — A. There is no bait you can see that time of year. 1 Q. Are there many of those pounds? — A. Yes. 2390 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. AV Q. The whole ground is covered? — A. Yes; wherever they can drivel the stakes. Q. I want to ask yon whether these pounds injure the fishing aloiig| the sliores or not ? — A. No; the fish are just as plenty now. Q. I don't speak of tliis year, for this is an exceedingly good year, lui! for five or six rears along, have you noticed any diminution of the i\sh ing along there i — A. No. i). Are most of the mackerel caught by the pound along that coast?- A. Yes ; about al' There is only one of our vessels out of the State ol Connecticut for mackerel. Q. How deep are they ? — A. About 40 feet ; you have a stake of aboui 52 feet. By Mr. Dana: Q. When you speak of Blassachusetts you don't speak of Massacbnj setts Bay, inside of Cape Ann and Cape Codf — A. No. Q. You mean the south shore ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Davies: Q. 1 simply meant to ask you whether you embraced Massachnsef in the statement that the pound tishing has not diminished the lish;- A. I speak of Buzzard Bay. It is south of Gape Cod. No. 37. Thursday, October 4, 1877, The Conference met. Joseph F. Brown, of Gloucester, Massachusetts, master mariner niM flsiiermau, called on behalf of the Government of the United Static sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. You live in Gloucester ? — Answer. Yes. Q. You are 34 years old ? — A. About that. Q. Where have you been fishing this suujmer? — A. On the north sid of Prince Edward Island, at Tracadie. Q. What is the name of the schooner you have been fishing in ?— .\ The Riverdale. Q. What time did you go to the island ? — A. I arrived there the L*5i day of July. Q. What has become of the schooner now ? — A. She was cast awa on Tracadie Beach the 22d day of September. Q. How have you been fishing this summer ? — A. In boats. Q. Not from a vessel ? — A, No. Q. Did you go up to fish in boots? — A. Yes; we fitted for that vo.vai: expressly to fish in boats. Q. How many boats did you take? — A. Two seine-boats and tw dories. Q. How many nun ? — A. Twelve men to fish. Q. You fished from what time to what tiuie ? — A. From the 2Gth da of July until about the 20th September. Q. Until .your vessel was cast away I — A. Yes. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did your boats catch ? — A. On hundred barrels. Q. How far off' from the shore have you been fishing in the boats thi Slimmer? — A. About three mih'S, in that vicinity. We have been oil ;i far as five miles, and sometimes iuhore. Q. How many jucluding ours. Q. What size 1 men, I should thii Q. How did yoi wind came up on Q. You hope to Q. Now have y( Yes; occasionally Q. What is the have seen as high Q. Do you know tbe general averaj Q. Tell all you known or heard of Q. What vessel you of the George of one that got 35( Q. Do you know A. I was aboard t and had been in tl Q. Any others ?■ Q. If you have oeeding or failing that the mackerel : bear. Q. Were you in Q. At the same p fitted quite as well Q. What did yoi buy ; we caught 20 Q. With boats ?- Q. Has your exp been poor. Q. Would it havi No; we would havi Q. What have I Tracadie — I mean i prices you have km pounds of fish aftei Q. What is the h Q. What is the a (j. Now, you ha\ rence in former yea year you were in th the Saline. Q. What year?— Q. You must hav commenced. ().. When were y( Q. How many tri last year and this y Q. When you wer Q. But you have Ves ; I have been o ive 311g Imi i.sh 0 0 )0U clitil 1 -H AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2391 ant sid Oil )ii hi Q. How many boats are there fishing out of Traeadie? — A. Nineteen, iucindinfj ours. Q. What size boats ; how many men ? — A. They av^eraged about four men, I should thiuk. Q. How did you happen to get your vessel stranded ? — A. A gale of wind came up on the 2l8t. We parted both chains and went ashore. Q. You hope to get your vessel oft? — A. Yes ; I think we shall. Q. Now have you seeu the niaokerel vessels there this summer ? — A. Yea ; occasionally we have seen them pass up and down. Q. What is the gveatest number you have seen any one day 1 — A. 1 iinve seen as high as 30 sail. Q. Do you know at all what luck they have Ashing? — A. Well, I think tbt" general average has been pretty poor. Q. Tell all you know about that. — A. Well, the highest trip I have known or heard of is 350 barrels, and very few at that. Q. What vessel got that? — A. I can't tell you that; but I can tell you of the George B. Loring that got 250 barrels. I can't tell the name of one that got 350 barrels. Q. Do you know about the result of the fishing of any other vessels ? — A. I was aboard the Wildfire six weeks ago. She had got 100 barrels and had been in the bay about a month ; she had 21 men. Q. Any others ? — A. That is all I know. Q. If you have any information about any other vessels, either suc- ceeding or tailing, you may state what you know. — A. Well, I heard that the luackerelfishing in the bay had been a failure, as near as I can bear. Q. Were you in the bay last year ? — A. Yes. Q. At the same place ? — A. Just about the same voyage; we were not fitted quite as well as we were this year. Q. VVhat did you do last year, buy or catch ? — A. We came mostly to buy ; we caught 20 barrels. Q. With boats ? — A. We had one dory and the vessel's boats. Q. Has your experiment this year been successful? — A. No; it has been poor. Q. Would it have been successful if you hadn't lost your vessel ? — A. No; we would have lost money if wo hadn't lost our vessel. Q. What have been the average prices of mackerel this summer at Tracadie — I mean after it is cured. Give us the highest and the lowest prices you have known. — A. The highest sold for 810.50, that is for 200 pounds of fish after they were cured. Q. What is the lowest f— A. 8 3.50. Q. What is the average? — A. About 87.00, I should jur been master. Q. When you were here before yon have beenassharesman ? — A. Yes. C^. But you have been a skipper in mackerel vessels elsewhere ? — A. Yes ; I have been on our shore. 2392 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Wy'j'''. Can the vessels iii'^e .school ?— A. Nf Q. How do you ma 'Is * — A. I have beei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2393 Q. When the boats are fishing near shore? — A. No; never, when the bouts are fishing near shore. Q. When the boats are fishing nearsliore how do they take mackerel? Is it in large schools? — A. No; I think the mackerel all through the north shore, so far as I have seen, seem to be scattered and feed on bottom, and all the way we can get t'aem is to anchor. When the ves- sels come in among us they never get anything at all. They have tried if this year two or three times right in among the boats, but never could do anything. Q. Well, can the vessels catch mackerel enough to make a profitable voyage if they fish in the manner in which the boats do? — A. No, they ciirinot. Q. What is the largest number of mackerel vessels you ever saw fish- iiijr together, that you recollect? — A. In one place ? Q. Yes. — A. I think I have seen 500 sail of vessels in Boston Bay in one fleet. Q. What is the largest number yon ever saw together in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A. Well, I think 250 sail is the largest. Q. Where was that? — A. Around Port Hood and Margaree in the fall of the year, when they all collected there in October. Q. What year was it? — A. I could not tell exactly, but I think that was 18(50. Q. Have yon ever fished or been for fish to the Bay Chaleur, proper ? —A. Into the bay? I have been ther« but I never caught any fish in the Bay Chaleur at all. I have been there once or twice. Q. Have you fished in the bend of the island; that is. Prince Edward Island, in vessels ? — A. I have tried. I have been in vessels that tried lip the island, but never caught any mackerel to speak of in the bend. Q. Is it safe or dangerous? — A. It is the most dangerous place t know of in the gulf. Q. Why? — A. Such a deep bend and shoal water. It is impossible lor a vessel to get out. After a wind has been three hours blowing ic would be almost impossible for a vessel to get out. Q. How is it with respect to taking refuge in the harbors ? — A. The arbors are very dangerous to enter, except they get in before the breeze conies on or in the day time. They are not fit to enter in the night time ill bad weather. Q. W^hy? — A. They are barred harbors and shoal water. Q. W^hat do you mean by barred harbors? — A. A bar of land stretch- injj across the month. Q. Have yon ever fished in the vicinity of Margaree ? — A. I have. Q. What time of the year? — A. October, I think. Q. At what distance from the shore of the island have yon fished in tbat vicinity ? — A. I have fished all the way from three or four miles, but in sight of the land ten or fifteen miles off. Q. Have you ever fished close iiiside of there? — A. No. Q. Have yon ever fished inside of three miles of the island ? — A. I ifjht have been in within three miles. I don't think I have caught any Ifisli there. Q. Have the mackerel been found this summer in schools ?— A. No. I iven't seen a school of mackerel since I have been in the bay. No argo body of mackerel 1 haven't seen. Q. Can the vessels make a profitable catch of fish unless there is a Jii<;e school ? — A. No ; I don't think they can. Q. How do you manage in boats ? How have you got your 100 bar- Is? — A. I have been out every morning when there was a chance at Ml r W', 2394 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ^piii ' .iV: l^iitk E,i anchor, and remained until eight or nine o'clock. The highest number offish we have caught to a man has been 2G0. Q. Two hundred and sixty mackerel would make how much more or less than a barrel ? — A. The last we caught, 2G0 would make a barrel. The first we caught it would take nearly 300 to a barrel. Q. Eow does the quality of the mackerel you have been taking tbis summer in boats rauge ? — A. They range about one-third 3's, about one third 2's, and one-third V». Q. Pretty good mackerel ? — A. No. I call them pretty poor. Q. Is that a poor average ? How does it compare with the mack- erel you used to take at the Magdalen Islands formerly wheu vessel- fishing? — A. It was a good eque is the bend ? — A. I would not bo positive, but Tracadie is about 45 miles from East Point, and St. Peter's, I think, is 11 or 12 miles to the eastward of that. Q. That is, it is nearer the point ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, that cannot be anything like as dangerous as the center?— A. Well, that is nearly the center. Q. Well, what time were these vessels lost that you speak of? — A. The 5th day of July. Q. Well, the master must have been at fault? — A. Well, I may be at fault now. Q. i didn't wish to say so at all? — A. Well, you judge from that. Q. Were you there when those other vessels were lost ? — A. I was in Tracadie the 5th day of July, when they went ashore. Q. Was that in the harbor ? — A. No ; they were outside. I was in the harbor. Q. It was in the night ? — A. I could not tell whether it was in the night or duy. Q. You don't know how they came to be lost; you had no conversa- tion with them ? — A. No; I know they were cast away, that is all. Q. You don't know anything about what was the motive for casting them away? — A. Well, the wind was the occasion of it. Q. You considered it a dangerous gale, then, in July? A. It was a heavy breeze. Q. Had you made harbor to save yourselves? — A. Yes; we made harbor that morning early. » * Q. Well, that is what those others should have done. A little fore- thought would have saved them ? — A. Perhaps they could not get there in season. I have been caught myself in gales of wind right near har- bor, and had to go off. Q. I cannot understand. Perhaps you will explain how you came to select Tracadie as a place for fishing. One would consider it was not the best place? — A. Well, I was there last year, and I thought by appear- ances there was a prospect of a very good year's work, and that I might do well. My vessel is not calculated for the fishing business, that is, tor the mackerel business to go off shore, and that is the reason I went ini boats instead of going in a vessel. Q. Why didn't you go to the Magdalens or some better place? — A, Well, I don't know that that is better. Q. I thought, according to your view, that it was? — A. It is at somej seatiODs. Q. Why didn Port Hood until Q. The boats never fished in I Q. When you (lid you inquire never made any Q. You made a fancy to select reason. Q. Then in yoi cess ?— A. I thou Q. Don't you t future?— A. The afloat, would not Q. Even with i were here before I have made prett Q. How many i bers?— A. Six or Q. You mean m trip. Q. Well, how m sider ?— A. Two w Q. Were those t One, we came early went home decent exactly when, as it Q. But I asked v fished ; were they t tliirtl year. The ot Q. Now, if I und( wiles much ?— A. ]^ Q. Once or twice but we never caugh Q. You never trie once or twice, or tin Q. But very few i Q. Had you a lie tliat. Last year ant [not master. Q. Then you don'l |A. I have never bee Q. Dnringauv of pever that I knew o Q. You nnderstoo( now. Q. A good many A itliradley and Orpl il^vays gone there. laven't, and yet they liave known vessel iiv knowledge amoni Q. But yoji were n Q. No; before. Yi lein. But you neve AWAIID OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2397 Q. Why didn't you go to Port Hood ? — A. We dou't geoerally fish at Port Hood until late in the fall. Q. Tbe boats flsb there all summer, don't they? — A. I don't know. I never flshed in boats till last year and this year. Q. When you were about engaging in the enterprise of boat-fishing, did you inquire as to the boat-fishing in any other places if — A. No; 1 never made any inquiries at all. Q. You made no inquiries as to the best places, but just simply took a fancy to select Tracadie ? — A. Yes ; I was there last year, that is the reason. Q. Then in your view you were induced to believe it would be a suc- cess ? — A. 1 thought last year it looked favorable. Q. Don't you think you are taking rather too gloomy a view of the future? — A. The whole mackerel I have got, allowing my vessel was afloat, would not pay the bills. Q. Even with that, that is only one year j what did you do when you were here before ? — A. I had made one or two pro8i>erou8 voyages, and I have made pretty poor ones, very poor. Q. How many voyages have you made altogether, in round num- bers?— A. Six or seven full seasoUvS. Q. You mean more than one trip a season? — A. No; never but one I tril>. Q. Well, how many of these trips have been successful, do you con- I skier? — A. Two were very successful. Q. Were those two early in the period over which you flshed ? — A. [One, we came early and staid late. The other one, we came in July and went home decently early, probably in Se[)tember. I could not say [exactly when, as it was some time ago. Q. But I asked whether they were early in the period over which you Itished; were they at the beginning of your fishing? — A.. One was the Itbird year. , Tlie other was the fourth time. Q. Now, if I understand you correctly, you never flshed within three liuiles much ? — A. No. Q. Once or twice you mentioned when you tried inshore ? — A. Yes } |biit we never caught anything to s|)eak of. Q. Y^ou never tried more than once or twice? — A. I would not say jouce or twice, or tiiree or four times. Q. But very few times indeetl ? — A. Y^es. i}. Had you a licejise, do you recollect 3 — A. No ; I could not tell liiit. Last year and this year 1 was master. The other years i was liiot nmster. Q. Then you don't know; do you know whether there were cutters? — |A. I have never been boarded by cutters in tlie bay in my life. Q. During any of the years that you fished, was it forbidden ? — A. iXever that I knew of. Q. You understood that you had a right to go in for fish? — A. I didn't now. Q. A good many Americiin fishermen, we have understood, have flshed It Bradley and Orphan and the Magdalens. A certain number have hvays gone there. Some of them have done pretty well and others aven't, and yet they never tried inshore fishing? — A. Well, this year have known vessels try inshore, and they haven't done anything to v knowledge amongst the boats. Q. But you were making losing voyage • before ? — A. This year? Q. No; before. Y^ou made seven voyages and lost money on five of bem. But you never tried inshore? — A. Well, we tried and we spoke 2398 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. AT (< : i' to the boats and foiiud there was nothing doing. When they did try tliey didn't do anything. Q. Bnt you didn't give it a successful trial, I should say. I may be wrong. Your general fishing was outside? Your idea of Ashing was outside? — A. Yes; that is what we fitted for. Q. Well, you failed year after year for five years and didn't try iu- shore ? — A. O, we tried it. Q. I asked you how often, and you mentioned once or twice, or three or four times. Now 1 am speaking of a successful testing of It for a season. What I would like to hear would be some person who bas tested it for a season. For instance, we have had vessel after vessel, and witness after witness; we have had a hundred vessels that ran in as close as they could get to the shore, and then drifted off until they got beyond three miles, and then came in again, and repeated the operation, continuing that course of fishing for a whole season. We have bad hundreds of them. — A. I don't think I was ever near enough. Q. For instance, at St. Anns, we had the evidence of the collector of customs, of vessels at St. Anns running in there and drifting off in the way I have described. You never tried that? — A. No; I never tried to follow it up. Q. Perhaps you might try that next year. It might be a hint ? — A. No; I don't think I shalU I have had two successive trips. Q. You will make money out of these mackerel this year. What will you sell them for ! You bought some at $3.50? — A. No, I didn't. Q. You didn't buy any this year ? — A. No, we didn't buy any mackerel. Q. It was last year ? — A. We went there purposely to buy, but didn't buy anything. Q. You were giving the price they were selling for? — A. Yes. Q. They were selling for $10.50 and $3.50 1— A. Yes. Q. You would have made money if you had bought them ? — A. I don't think so. I would sell mine now for $10.50. Q. There. But what will you sell them for at home? — A. I think $7.50, $11, and $16, is the last quotation. Q. Did you have any colonial fishermen, province fishermen, on board your vessel any time ? — A. No. Do you mean, did we have any em- ployed ? No. Q. That is unusual for an American vessel not to have a majority of provincial men on board? — A. Yes; I should judge about two-thirds. Q. Well, does it not occur to you that that may be the reason you didn't succeed. You wanted a little of the provincial element on board ? — A. No; I don't think we needed that at all. Q. Well, we have had many instances where they have done well and made large catches. They understood where to catch fish. Have you ever heard of the practice of lee-bowing boats'? — A. No. I have heard of lee-bowing vesseLs. Q. You have tried to lee-bow vessels? — A. Yes; I have tried that. Q. You consider that all right enough? — A. Yes. I should consider it fair. Q. Well, it is just as fair to lee-bow a boat as a vessel ? — A. I don't know how to lee-bow a boat. Q. Would it not be just as fair? I don't ask you whether you did it or not ? — A. I don't know whether it is as fair or not, because I don't know how. Q. That would not have the slightest effect on its fairness, whether you know or not ? — A. I don't know anything about that. Q. Suppose I tell you how ? — A. Well, then it would be fair enough. t Q. Would you Q. You never t it ]»erf'ectly fair ?- Q. You have le (lone that. Q. That has be don't succeed ? — ^ Q. In five trips instances we have could get them, th I haven't done tha Q. Well, I only [out of it. You sa pever lee-bowed bo all the trouble thei Q. Tliere are no Q. When were buildings on them Q. When were Tear, and one was i Q. But not befor( Q. It is rather know. I could not Q. Are they men A. No; not very la Q. Well, there ha ad stages there li ieorgetown, is intei le bas three boats, (i. How many fish tell. I never was in Q. You never mad Mr. Uall's boats. II stage. I don't knf Q. Then, at Traca i. They think they Q. You think so", t Q. Well, the only i spenses ?— A. I am Q. What is the ex] Q. You didn't buy Q. Last year you I Q. You went there osave much, to mal< Q. But you went tl essel, and my emplo Q. What 2404 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. i j'.*-**'?^. l!ii;i:f^1 Mh i«t Q. Your cxpericuce was uot very extousive? — A. Not very extensive in the gulf. By Mr. Trcscot : Q. I tliink you misunderstood a question of Mr. Davies, He aslicd you about the time you had been at Priuee Edward Ishuid. You told iiini you could not recollect the date, but you can say whether it was within six, ei{^ht, or ten years? — A. 1 haven't been there for tiftoou years; I will venture that. Q. Now, with regard to another question. Y''ou stated, as I under- stand, and as the question 1 put would lead me to understand, that tlit mackerel lishery of Deer Island has very much diminished. Y'^ou under stood Mr. Da\ ies to a])ply to the mackerel tishery in the gulf. I would like to know whether, in reply to his question, you meant to say that the fisheries all along the coast of Maine have diminished very much .'— A. They have ; yes, sir. . By Mr. Davies: Q. Ah regards the gulf, you have not been there for 15 or 10 years .'— A. Xo ; but our vessels are coming and going there. (The witness, being recalled, said he desired to make an explanation with regard to a part of his evidence, and jjroceeded to say that in speak- ing of the diminution of the fishing on the coast of Maine he did not know anything about the depreciation of the fish ii> the water on the coast, but that he meant to state simply that the business had not been so profitable in catching them as formerly.) By Mr. Davies : Q. The vessels that have engaged in the business have diminished iu number ? — A. Yes. il. And the catches of the vessels that are engaged in the business, have they been as large as iu former years? — A. No, sir; they have not. No. 39. i). Do you ( Q. How do tLe matter?— Q. iiow mai Q. How niu< siiiimier, Q. How wer Q. How lon^ (i>. And the Q. Were yosj nr were you ileti »cre going aro Q. Besides tl land ports, di(i ill bills paid in' liites, 8i.90; pil By Mr. "^Vhere do HoAv long Previous t< I'es, Q. AVilt;iam H. ]McDonald, of Gloucester, ^Fass., called on behalf of tin Government of ihe United States, sworn and examineu. By Mr. Trescot : Question You were born iu St. John's, Newibundland ? — Answer. Yes. Q. You live in Gloucester? — A. Yes. Q. What business are you engaged iu ? — A. Cod-fishing a little, r.iui herring-fishing in the winter. Q. How long have you been cod-fishing as skipper? — A. Six years. (,). You have been fishing on the Grand ]Jank all that time? — A. Yes. 3U recollect what catch you made in the first four years wlieii yoa used salt bait ? — A, Yes. The first year wo got about 3,700 (]uiii- tals ; the second year about 3,.)00 ; the tliird year 3,000; last year about 1,800, and this year about 1,400. Six years y What were the bay. Q- Up the gulf Q- In what ves ^l You were fi, iiitl round by Sy( Q Who was th I (t». Did you do 1 '■'IH) barrels. Q. Tie first yea (J. Did you niah Q- The second ^i'teh, more or le" Q. You made on Q. Yoa caught i lie coast of Cape »"•! witliin three i 'i*. What limits? Q- Did you see u Q- AN'ere they on tifth side. <.>. Off what harb fttino.sfc there, an ^wandat Geor-',i •t*- Yon \\>mU\ rVii Q. You went up a 'it.'lou woidd run in to hind and t again ? — A. We never ran in to land tVu" mackerel. Q. You went up anil down the coast ? — A. Yes. We never caught any aeUerel inshore. iliyulQ. What harbors did you enter for shelter? — A> Charlottetown,Gcorge- uiu-lwii. and Souiis. boutlQ. Dill you remain long in harbor at any time ? — A. Sometimes four ive days. ana Irs. lYos. leai's loine. liavi (d>.j 'TM'^TrT'fflT"'Tinriiii''iag''''' ^ ifW^S •'N B!«": 240G AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. J'*' ''i! i. fe;- llio al. th. Q. They are pretty good harbors ? — A. Yes, good harbors. George- town aii'l Charlottetown are good harbors. Q, Is there any difflcnltv in entering them in case of a gale of wind ?— . A. No. Q. Then for four years you became master, of what vessel ? — A. Henry A. Johnson. Q. Was that the first year you went to the Banks ? — A. Yes. Q. Who was the owner of the vessel "I — A. W. Parsons. Q. You took your bait from where ? — A. From home. Q. From Gloucester? — A. Yes. Q. What bait was it? — A. Salt pogies. Q. How many voyages did you make that year? — A. Three. Q. All for salted iish ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you use no fresh bait at all ? — A. We caught squid ov Banks. There were plenty of squid on the Banks that ye;j» Q. ])id you use any other fresh bait besides that squid ! — A. We ways used small halibut for bait. Q. You made three voyages ; did you keep a meaiorandum of catch ? — A. 1 never did. Q. Are you quite sure of the sum total of your catch that year ? — A Yes. Q. That you took 3,700 quintals in three voyages .' — A. Yes. Q. What Avas the size of the vessel ? — A. 59 tons. Q. The second year wero you in the same vessel ? — A. Xo ; in ' 'i Carrie S. Dagle. Q. How many voyages did you make? — A. Two. Q. Did you use any salt bait ? — A. We used all salt bait. Q. Bid you catch no fresh bait on the Banks ? — A. We caught a trifling amount of squid. Q. And the third year you were in the same vessel ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you make any memorandum of the voyages those two years ;'— A. No ; 1 did not. Q. Are you clear that the second year you got 3,500 quintals, and tlie third year 3,000 quintals? — A. Yes. 1 ^ot somewhere near .">,000 ciuin tals the tL'rd trip. Q. How many trips? — A. Two. Q. And the fourth year what quantity did you catch ? — A. ^' ,. whore about 2,000 quintals. Q. How' many trips did you make that year ? — X, Two. Q. You used salt bait during those four years? — A. Yef'. Q. Yorr catch decreased during the four years you were using salt bait from 3,700 quintals to 2,000 ?— A. Yes. Q. And w hat was the hist year you went to the Banks using fresh bait?— A. 1876. Q. Did you take any salt bait with you ? — A. Yes; a year ago this spring I took ten b irrels of salt bait, I think. (}. i)id you make up your first trip with salt bait? — A. No. (i. How many trips did you make last year? — A. Two. Q. Did you get any squid on the first trip on the Banks ? — A. No. Q. Did yoa get any small halibut or other bait ? — A. We had small halibut; we always get them. Q. Having small halibut last yearon the first trip, how was it that you did not complete tho trip there? — A. There was so much fresh bait coiuj iug on the Banks that the llsh would not take salt bait. Q. There wi\s so large a quantity of fresh bait coming on the Banks you found salt bait no good ? — A. No good. A Q. There was Newfoundland \ tli :re. Q. All the ves! all. Q. How large Bauks ?— A. I c( possible to tell tl Q. Do you reii I cester ?— A. I do Q. You then w Q. And last ye Q. Where did ; Q. In what sea Q. Did you eve ports between Ca [you could not get ',>. T>idyou try ioa went to Q. There was a I spring, catching [know that there , Q. You had no Q. How longdi •ay and return to I (lays. Q. How long d |(lays. I never did Q. I am now spe Itime you went in, \ It'rom the Bauks to |A. About twelve d Q. Are you clear Ikeep a log. I nevei |lo it in that time t J Q. Do I understa jBauks to Fortune I lU's. (h Were you in h 1 vvas in other parts Q. What ^— A. 0 Q- For squid ?— ^ Q. How long did i feturn to the lianks Q. You were all tl H the time. I was '"•1 ?o back to Cc-vpe Q. You went in 0; Q. How long did y, pt in the evening. ' Q. Then you went i>id you enter t Last year '/—A. I>id you pay lig You went to To And round to C 'I m& AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2407 all lou liu- Q. There was a large nninber of vessels coining from the coast of }Iewfouudland with fresh )iiit ? — A. Last year they mostly got bait th?re. Q. All the vessels got fresh bait there last year ? — A. I would not say all. Q. How large was the fleet with which you were fishing on the Banks ? — A. I could not tell you the number of the vessels ; it is im- possible to tell that. Q. Do you remember the number of bankers that went from Glou- 1 cester '? — A. I do not. Q. You then weut in to Newfoundland for bait ? — A. Yes. Q, And last year was the first time ' — A. Yes. Q. Where did you go ? — A. Xo Fortune Bay. Q. In what season of the year? — A. In June, about first of June. Q. Did you ever try to get bait at ports nearer than Fortune Bay ; at [ports between Cape liace .•.nd Conception Bay ? — A. It was no use, for I you could not get it at any other place at that time of the year. (). Did you try at any other ? — A. No. ^' i'ou went to Fortune Bay and got herring? — A. Yes. Q. There was a great number of American vessels in Fortune Baj' last spring, catching herring, I believe? — A. Ther3 were not many; I don't know that there was an,\ body but ourselves when we were there. Q. You had no difficulty in getting herring? — A. No. Q. How long did it take you to go in for bait, get herring at Fortune ay and return to the Banks ? — A. You cannot do it in less than twelve (iays. Q. How long did it take you on that occasion ? — A. About twelve (lays. I never did it in less than one week. Q. I am now speaking of the time jou wot.r to Fortune Bay, the first time you went in, which was last year. How long did it take you to go from the Banks to Fortune Bay, get bait, and return to the Banks ? — i. About twelve days. Q. Are you clear about it ? — A. I am not exactly positive. I did not |keep a log. I never did it in less than one week, and I know 1 did not do it in that time then. Q. Do I understand that the shortest time occupied in going from the iBauks to Fortune Bay i A back to tha Banks would be one week ? — A. lYes. Q. Were you in last year any o'lier time except this once ? — A. Yes ; [Iwas in other parts of Newfoundland. Q. What'— A. Cape Royal. Q. For squid ?— A. Yes. Q. How long did it take you on that occasion to go in, get ' i*:, and tetiirn to the Banks ? — A. Two weeks that time. Q. You were all that time at Cape Uoyal ? — A. Xo ; I w as not there 1 the time. Iwas at a place called Torbay. We had to leave^hei'3 111(1 ^o back to Cape Itoyal. (}. Y'on went in Cape Eoyal first ? — A. Yes. Q. How long did you remain there ? — A. I went in the morning and left in the evening. Q. Then you went to Torbay .' — A. To St..Iohn's, to get money. Did you enter the port of St. John's .' — A. Y'es. (). Last year '. — A. Y'es. . Did you pay lightdces there? — A. Yes. (^>. You wei\t to Torbay '. — A. Yes. (i. And round to Capo Koyal ? — A. Y'^es. 'U^w:.'^ :''^^' :^i.-'^^^*'^ ■>. «.'■■;..« H^rr. 2408 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Ife'-:f #'■ •' ml- ■ 'ftii',. ■m': Q. After getting your bait at Cape Royal, when you returned tuere, Low loug did it take you to get out of the Bauks ? — A. One day and night. Q. One night going out ? — A. Yes. I may not have got just to where I fished, but I got on the Banks. Q. On the fishing-ground 1 — A. Not on the fishing-ground. Q. The Banks are all fishing-grounds ? — A. No. There are parts where you cannot get a fish. Q. Are those the only two occasions you were into Newfoundland for fresh bait last year ? — A. I was in thiee times. Q. Where did you go the third time? — A. To Portugal Cove, Con- ception Bay. Q. How long did it take you to get there ? — A. I went there direct from home — from the States. Q. That was your second trip?— A. Yes. Q. Did you go in for bait — squid f — A. Yes. Q. What time of the year? — A. About 12th September. Q. You employed the people there to get squid for you immediately on your arrival ? — A. Yes. Q. And how long was it before they succeeded in supplying your wants f — A. It took me about two weeks then. 1 got on the Banks on the 16th September. Q. With a full supply of bait ? — A. Yes. Q. Y.yU then got your trip completed — by what time ? — A. We did not get anything at all to speak of. We got about 200 quintals. Q. A nd you returned at what time ? — A. We returned home about 7tli November. Q. And you were on the Banks from IGth September to 7th Novem- ber ? — A. Not exactly all that time. I was in at Newfoundland when coming home. Q. At what time did you leave the Banks? — A. Eleventh October. Q. You staid in Newfoundland from 11th October till when ? — A, On 22d October, I think, I started for home. Q. You completed ycur fishing for that season ? — A. Yes. Q. This year did you go direct from Gloucester to the Banks, or did you go to Newfoundland first for bait ? — A. We went to Newfoundlaud, Fortune Bay, first for bait. April. Q. At what time of the year ? — A. We left home about 23d and got to Newibundland about 1st May. Q. What part of Fortune Bay did you go to for bait ? — A. Long Island Q. Were there many vessels there at that time getting bait ?— A, Three or four. Q. Bid you take a seine with you ? — A. No. Q. Were any other x\merican vessels there with seines ? — A. N American vessel ever had a seine there. Q. Is frozen Q. You neve Q. Then if j incorrect? — A. Q. Not in Fo Q. You nevei ring-barrels use Q. AVe had a rels used for pu duty on the ban Q. You never have seen them Q. Bid you go -A, No; there Q. You got it four or five days Q. Before you Yes ; there was \ (i. Then you pi tlaat quantity of Q. How much 1 Q- How much ( Q' You flsli alt( Q- A great nun irith trawls ?— A. Q' The large qu Isuppose, has a t( Uauk fish never g( is plenty of proof lie liked in the Sta Q. ^Vhat is the ( tiie shore fish the i Q- What is its c( Q. Are they oth( 111. What you get Q. Have you eve ortune Bay aiul tl (}. Then you hav (). Have you evei M. Are not the ii.« re not the same as It the American sch light by one of M 0. There Q. I am informed that a large number of American vessels went tlu'eBt. Clary's 7 ' V this spring and caught bait themselves. — A. They would not beallowedi " to put a seine in the water there ; they v.ould be chopped down. Q. Were yon f^'er chopped down ? — A, I never had a seine there, am never knew an American vessel with a seine there. Q. You have not seen them there .' — A. No; and I k«ve traded tlien all the time in the winter time. Q. You have been there for herring in winter? — A. Ye? Avinters. Q. That is, in the months of February antlier i »t urarly so lat, anc Anything else?. AWARD OP THE FISIIEKY COMMISSION. 2409 (}. Isfrozeu berring: shipped in bulk or in barrels? — A. In bulk. Q. You never heard of any being shipped in barrels ? — A. No. Q. Then if any one said that there were barrels used it would be incorrect? — A. Of course; it is not so in winter. Q. Not in Fortune Bay ?— A. No. Q. You never heard of such a thing as a dutj' being charged on her- liug-barrels used ^or putting frozen herring in ? — A. No ; 1 never did. Q. We had a witness here the other day who stated that on empty bar- rels used for putting herring in a duty was charged. — A. They do pay a iluty on the barrels into which they i)ut herring, but not frozen herring. (j. You never heard of frozen herrings being put in barrels ? — A. I have seen them put in barrels at Grand Manan, not at Newfoundland. Q. Did you get your bait at Newfoundland soon after you went down ? •-A. No ; there was quite a delay this spring before we got bait. Q. You got it at Long Harbor f — A. Yes ; it was very scarce. It was lour or live days before we got bait. Q. Before you could get the people to catch the bait for you ? — A. Yes ; there was very little there to catch ; it was very scarce. ii. Then you proceeded to the Banks; did you catch a good trip with that quantity of bait ? — A. No. Q. How much bait did you take with you ? — A. About 45 barrels. Q. How much did you pay for it ? — A. $02. i). You fish altogether with trawls, I suppose ? — A. Yes. Q. A great number of vessels were fishing round you in the same way Kith trawls ? — A. Yes. Q. The large quantity of fresh bait scattered on the fishing grounds, : suppose, has a tendeucy to keep the fish well on the ground '. — A. The |l!auk fish never go off the grounds and never leave the Banks. Thero is plenty of proof of that. The shore fish of Newfoundland would not |be liked in the States. Q. What is the difference between the shore and Bank fish ? — A. In |tlie shore fish the nape is black, and that would not do for our njarket. i). What is its color in the Bank fish "! — A. AVhite. Q. Are they otherwise exactly alike ? — A. No; they are not alike at |al1. What you get inshore are small fish. Q. Have you ever fished at the western part of Newfoundland, round Tortune Bay and that portion of the coast ? — A. No. Q. Then you have not seen the large fish they take there ? — A. Yes ; I (^ Have you ever fished off Cape St. Mary's ? — A. Yes. (,>. Are not the fish caught there large fish ? — A. They are large, but kre not the same as the Bank fish. A cargo was caught there by one It tbe American schooners six years ago, but it was never sold. It was aught by one of Mr. Lowe's schooners. i}. There has lately been some of the American vessels fishing at ft. Mary's ? — A. I have not seen an v. Q. The fish caught off Cape St. Mary's are not like the Bank fish .' — Xo, laniBQ. Are the fish ca'ight at i)arts of the coast further west like Bank Jsb .' — A. I never fished further westward than Capo St. .Mary's. |Kid(». You say tliere is a dilference in Bank and shore fish in otber re- ji'cts tlnui that one has a black nape and the other a white nape ?— A. liK WHM'' -s a difference- in every way. (^ In what other respect .' — A. The shore fish is not nearly so thick, jot nearly so i'at, and has a black nape. ID, Anythiiigelse ;' — A. No. ^v'^;?^ :v:-i J .?P>53«»r ;l.*i'"'*'*Jsr w i''''A§!'^^SM mm^ ^^si ■■ **>■«•».. f^« ^P^H ir'^lK'^^' ■■ - '-i, ' 4 'f '■■ '->*■' t 'it ».:'•■ 2410 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. AW iAi lit,,'; ;:i m '!-f Q. Tlioy have each the same number of flus ? — A. I suppose so. I never con u ted. Q. But you are a great authority on codfish ? — A. Yes ; I know about codfish. Q. You noticed the size and thickness of the flsh and the color of the nape, and yet you cannot say how many fins they have '. — A. No. Q. Will you undertake to say that the Bank flsh have not got a flu over and above the shore fish ? — A. No. Q. Upon getting out on the rtrst trip to the Banks you said you did not complete ^vour codfish voyage? — A. No. Q. You came into Newfoundland again ?— A. I came to Fortune Bay again. Q. About what time was that? — A. About the 1st June. Q. You got your herring, in how long? — A. It was just exactly two weeks till I got on the Banks again. Q. Did you then complete your voyage ? — A. No. Q. Did you go in again If — A. Yes. Q. Where did you go ? — A. To Cape Koyal. Q. To any other place ? — A. No. Q. How long were you at Cape lloyal? — A. Just one week going in and coming out again. Q. Did you go in again ? — A. Yes. Q. When ? — A. In July some time. Q. Where did you go then ? — A. To Cape Royal again. Q. Did you go to any other places, or did you get bait there and go out again? — A. We went to the Bay of Bulls next time. Q. Did you go to any other place besides the Bay of Bulls? — A. No. Q. How long were you in there ? — A. Something over one week. Q. Were you in after that ? — A. Yes. Q. When ? — A. In August. Q. Where did you go ? — A. To Saint John's first. Q. And out again from there? — A. To Portugal Cove. Q. How long were you there ? — A. Over two weeks. Q. Did you go in again ? — A. I was in about the last of August. Q. Where did you go then ? — A. I could not tell you all the place; I went to Saint John's and other places. Q. How long were you then ? — A. Something over five weeks. Q. Did you get bait? — A. We got some salt squid, no fresh squid. Q. You returned to the Banks ? — A. Yes. Q. And did you complete your voyage at the Banks? — A. I am right from the Banks going home. Q. What quantity have you got ? — A. 1,500 quintals. Q. Just now you said it was 1,400 quintals? — A. It is between 1,400 and 1,500 quintals. I cannot say exactly. Q. Then you made one trip this year ? — A, Yes. Q. That is between 23d April, when you left Gloucester, and the present time ?— A. Yes, one trip. Q. Were you not talking a little at random when you said you bad spei\t half your time in getting fresh bait ? — A. I think I did spend half my time. Q. I belie\ e all Anioricau vessels leaving Gloucester in the spring j?o down to Fortane Bay, iu the first place, to get bait? — A. Not allot' them. Q. The great majority? — A. A good many of them. Q, Ou the way to the Banks ^ — A. Yes, I suppose so. Q. And those which do not go into Newfoundland get their bait some L-here on the Nov; Lppose they get it some other place. Q. And you say [Tesseis, went into i By Mr. Tres Q. You say you Q. When did yoi Q. What brough Q. Have you be lug ? — A. I never By Mr. Whit Q. Do not a grea ay instead of goin aw a couple ancho yself, and was chi By 3Ir. Tresc Q. What were yo By Mr. Foste Q. What were yo Narrows. There "w£ By Mr. White Q. Were you not Qaster's boat which Q. You were liabU rere three vessels ly essels to go iu. Q. And you were ( By Hon. Mr. I Q. You spoke abot )i'.s?— A. Yes. Q. They are at the Q. Have you ever line been in no harb Q. Are those quiet By ]\rr. Whitev Q. Were you in F< leiriug?— A. I think ^'ILLIAM A. DiCKIi leGoverument of th By Mr. Dana : Question. When die 11858; I went as a h Q. At that time wei iliing business ?— A. Q. Fishing for cod r Q. What has becom AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2411 III »o where ou til e Nova Scotia coast? — A. I don't know exactly where. I suppose they get it somewhere round the shores on their own coast, or some other place. Q. And you say that the greater number, in fact nearly all American vessels, went into the Newfoundland coast this year for bait? — A. Yes. By Mr. Trescot : Q. You say you are on your way home from the Banks ? — A. Yes. Q. When did you get into Halifax ? — A. Last night. Q. What brought you here ; did you come for a harbor ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been in the habit of going to Grand Manan for her- ring ? — A. I never was there. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Do not a great number of American vessels anchor in Freshwater Bay instead of going into the Port of St. John's ? — A. I don't know. I saw a couple anchored there this summer. I anchored in the Narrows myself, and was charged for anchoring. By Mr. Trescot : Q. What were you charged ? — A. Six dollars. I was lined. By Mr. Foster : Q. What were you fined for? — A. I was fined for anchoring in the Narrows. There was no wind, and we could not get in. By Mr. W^hiteway : Q. Were you not obstructing navigation, and was it not the harbor- oaster's boat which went out to you ? — A. Yes. Q. You were liable to be fined for obstructing navigation ? — A. There rere three vessels lying there. There was plenty of room for any other essels to go in. Q. And you were ordered out ? — A. We went out. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. You spoke about going into Georgetown and Charlottetown Uar- lors? — A. Yes. Q. They are at the southern side of Prince Edward Island ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you ever been in the harbors on the north side? — A. No; I live been in no harbors except on the south side. Q. Are those quiet harbors ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Were you in Fortune Bay in January when you weat for frozen A. I thiidv on the 2d of January. lerriug f- No. 40. William A. Dickey, of Helfast, Maine, fishornuui, called on bolialt'of lie Government of the United States, examined. lit By Mr. Dana : Question. When did you begin to go fishing ? — Answer. I commenced 11858; I went as a hand, as sharesman. Q. At that time were there many vessels from Belfast engaged in t!\e iliing business ? — A. Ten or twelve sail. Q. Fishing for cod and mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What has become of the lyackerol trade and fishermen of Belfast? f'-i- '•■;•':'■, ■■■. ,, :„ H-i^'' ¥^-*''.'^ '^v-- fi'tS*' 2412 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. P,(!«-,l» — A. There are but two of ns who fish for mackerel with vessels of any si/o; that is, excepting amall vessels. Q. Are your mackerel-men now mainly enj;age(l in tishing on the American coast? — A. They have been for the last six years. Q. You went into the bfiyhshing in 1858. Do you know for how many barrels the vessel fitted? — A. The vessel litted for 400 or 500 barrels. Q. Anil you caught how many ? — A. About 270 barrels, I think. Q. Did you catch any lish inshore then ? — A. I was a boy, a yoinij; fellow, and I don't remember particularly. We canglit part of them inside the lines. We fished inshore and off, but the whole (luantity wo caught inshore I don't remember. Q. In 1850 did you go fishing again ? — A. Yes. Q. Were you in the bay ? — A. Yes, one trip, late. Q. Do you recollect how many you caught ? — A. From one hundred and forty to one hundred and fifty barrels. Q. Were any of those caught inshore? — A. Tliat year we fished alto- gether at Bank Orphan, or pretty much so. We may have caught a few inshore. I cannot say the quantity. Q. From ISGO to 1805 where were you fishing ? — A. For those live years I was skipper of the same vessel, fishing on our shores. I fished for cod one trip in the spring and afterwards on our shores. Q. You made one trip in the early spring for cod ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you go ? — A. To Western Banks and Ban«iuero. Q. What kind of bait did you have ? — A. Salt clams. Q. No fresh bait ?— A. No. Q. How long were you generally on the Banks ? — A. We generally left home 25th or 27th April and got back generally before 4th July. Q. And then you went mackerel fishing on your own coast ? — A. Ou our own shores. Q. What part of the American shore did you fish on t — A. We fished from Mount Desert Bock to Cape Cod. Q. With menhaden bait? — A. Yes; with salt bait. Q. Do you come into port often ? — A. We harbor occasionally when there is a wind. Q. I maau do jou land your fish? — A. Yes ; we land them whenever we get a voyage ; sometimes two or three times and tvometimes not more than twice. Q. You could go in often enough to get fresh pogies and menhaden if_ you wished? — A. We never use fresh bait for mackerel, but salt bait altogether. Q. After 18G5 did you go in the bay again? — A. I could not say whether the next time was iu 18G5 or 18GG. 1 know it was the last year the treaty was on. Q. You had a right then to go where j'ou liked ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you catch any mackerel iushora ? — A. We caught a few at Margaree and at Magdalen Islands that year. We fished some at 3Iargaree. Q. Did you make any attempt to fish inside the line ! — A. At the Magdalen Islands there were no fish inside. We were out some dislsaiice Q. Did you know that fact by trying yourself or by reports, or by both ? — A. We tried in and off shore. Q. That year there was no fish inshore ? — A. We did i.ot gee any in- shore at Magdalen Islands. At Margaree we probably fished inshore within two, three, or four miles. Q. When did you next go to the bay ?-yA. I skipped one or two years, I am not certain but that I staid at home and went cod fishing a trip AWARD OF THE FI.SIIERV COMMISSION. 2413 )n if Ibait say rear at at I the lice. by and mackereliiifj. The first year after the tieaty was up 1 was at home. lain cortaiu of tliat. (}. You uieau you went coil -ti shiny ? — A. Yes. Q. What else did you catch ? — A. I was catchinfj inenhadeu for oil, 1 tbiiilv, that year. Q. Are there plenty of menhaden to be found on your coast? — A. Yes. Steamers get each from lii5,(M>0 to 2G,(»0U barrels almost every year. 1 think tiiere are 'M steamers this year. Q. Where do they take the pogies. Is there a place to manufacture the oil near Portland ? — A. There are several of them there, and at Kound Point and Booth J lay. • {). When did you next go into the bay .'—A. 1SG7 or 1808, I don't know which ; 1807, I think, but 1 could not be certain. Q, What did you catch '! — A. Mackerel. Q. How many tri|)S did you make ? — A. Two trips; we landed one iiiiill trip and sent \c home. (,). AVhat did you cat( li the first trip i—A. I think 190 or 200 barrels. {}, What did you get tlie second trip ? — A. About 70 barrels 1 think we carried home. I). Out of those 2G0 barrels, how much did you catch inshore? — A. iVe, j)erhaps, might have caught 40 barrels. We fished some inshore nd some oft' shore. Wo had a license that year. Q. Uaving a license, you tried inshore, did you ?— A. Y'es, we tried iishore; but the fishing was not as good inshore, and there was better Ishing ott" shore ; and we gtt the greater i)art of them oft" shore. Q, Do you mean there were more fish oft" shore, or was it in regard to lieir fatness ? — A. There were more oft'^shore. t^ You did not catch enough inshore to pay the license? — A. I don't emeniber whether we did or not. Q. Were you master then ? — A. Yes. (). You tried the inshore fishing ? — A. Y'es ; we tried it when we were jsliore. (}. Take the next four years, where were you fishing? — A. I don't re- ember whether I was in the bay next year or not. In 1809 or 1870 I ink I was in the bay. (). Did you have a license? — A. No, we had no license then. (J. I'^ou had a license only one year ? — A. Yes. (i>. Were you cod-fishing during the next four years at all ? — A. No. Q. Only catching mackerel ? — A. Y'es. Q. Generally, where did you catch your fish when you were in the y? — A. We caught some at IMagdalen Islands, and from Point Miscou North (Jape and Bank Bradley. ^l During that period of time where did you find your largest and best li J — A. We fished on what we call the West shore, between Point Es- minac and northward of North Cape, ten or twelve miles out. We did le best there, I think. I During the whole of the four years, where did you find any fish shore ? Did you try inshore '/ — A. I was only two of those four years tbe bav, and the other two I was on our shores ; I think in 1809 and :0 or i808 and 1809 1 was in the bay. 0. During those two years, where did you find your best fishing — with- regard to particular localities — inshore or out? — A. We found the We did not find anj' vessels inshore at all. We pt fishing oft' shore. us. IriH pe in a new vessel, the cutters were there, and we did not try inshore jall. We fished at Magdalen Islands. K. Did you find satisfactory fishing ? — We got a fair trip, though we J ;;'',:.: ..f-'fe^ );«* l(|3L,.iH,.i**, i'-»rA 2414 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. did not (ill all our barrels. Wo got 21.') barrols, I tbink, one trip, ai 190 barrels the second trip. Q. That is pretty good tishing ? — A. Yes, good fishing. (^. Since 1871 where have you been tishing if^-A. I have been sciiiin on our shores. CJ. At what parts of the American coast?— A. From Mount Desp Bock to Cape May, Delaware. We commence there in the si)ring ai work eastward. Q. Were you tishing inshore or out or both along the America coast ? — A. Oft" shore and inshore. Q. How many hafo you taken there? — A. We took all the way fro 350 to 1,000 barrels. Last year we had about 1,000 barrels. Q. You had good luck on the American coast ? — A. Yes, we have Ik good fishing there for five or six years (J. How has it been this year ? — A. There was good fishing early th year, in May, south. Since then there has been very little done. Q. At what time did you come into the bay this year ? — A. 10th A gust. Q. Are you in Halifax with your vessel ? — A. Yes. Q. For a harbor ? — A. We came into harbor last night. Q. You did not come to Halifax as a witness ? — A. No. Q. Were you homeward bound when you made Halifax ? — A. Y'^es Q. How many barrels have you got? — A. From 113 to 120 barrels. AW/ Q. During all the time you have been cod-fishing, you say you ha fe were there we g gone to the Banks in spring and to jour own coast in summer ; lia you been in for fresh bait 1 — A. We did not used to go in for bait the I have not been cod-fishing the last nine years or longer. Q. While you were fishing you used salt bait altogether ? — A. Yes, Q. Do you know anything about weir and pound tishing on the coa of Maine ? — A. I never was engaged in weir or pound fishing. Q. You have seen it? — A. 1 have seen a number of pounds Q. And heard about it ? — A. I have heard there is a consideral quantity taken. Q. You cannot give any account of it? — A. No. By Mr. Doutre : Q. How many times have you been in the bay ? — A. About six seven times. Q. Six or seven different seasons or trips ? — A. Different seasons. Q. And sometimes you went two trips in one season ? — A. We ha landed and sent home a trip, but I have never been home and ba on a second trip. Q. Where did you land any trip ? — A. We landed a trip the first ye I was in the bay at Cascumpeque. That is about 19 years ago. Q, How did those fish reach home ? — A. They were shipjjed home a vessel. Q. Have you ever fished on the coast of Gaspe ? — A. I never fisli on the coast of Gaspe. I have been there twice. Q. You never tried to fish there ? — A. No. Q. Why did you go there if you did not intend to fish? — A. We we into Gaspe from Bonaventure for water. We fished broad off on Boi venture Bank, about southeast, 40 or 50 miles. Q. W^as the Gaspe coast nearest? — A. There was not much diff'ereii between that and North Cape, I think. Q. Do you ever fish in Bay Chaleurs? — A. I never fished there, b I have laid inside of the point about Shippegan. We caught a ti mackerel there one year. How far from Do you remcn W'v caught one day (}. Did you ever ittle. I heaved to isii. Q. Did you not li (J. How far from inside of two miles Q. Did you fish very little at JNlarga ii. How far from from one mile to fou Q. Is that a good inies in the fall. It Q. In what portio i. I fished there a Q. How many bai !0 or 25 barrels ther iliree days. Q. You have fishe (lugdalen Islands pa Q. How far from t lotly of the fish. Q. None nearer ?— ay from three to fif Diles off'. That was Q. Where did yoi inks and Banquero Q. Did you take yc (»>. Y'^ou did not bi rent. Q. How long ago is Q. Do you mean to fith salt bait ?— A. IS ise mackerel to put o ogether. Q. When you fish c . Yes ; for mackerel Q. Is not fresh bait sed it very often ; nc Q. At North Cape liles of the shore ?— . 'orth Cape. Q. Was that the ne ave fished nearer tha out, but the princip ept this year, when \ Q. Y'^ou have come i ais year. Q. Where did you c; ipal part of our fish t) om West Cape to Noi very few at Port Ho Q. How far from the AWARD OF TIIK FISIIKKY COMMISSION. 2415 tb Q. How far from tlie shore? — A. From two to live or six mik's. {}, Do you rcMiiombcr tlio iiumbor of lmrr«'Is you caught there ? — A, IVccauKlit OHO day off 81iippe},'aii, 1 think, L'a barrels. i). Dill you ever llsh in theiienil of I'riiice I'^dward Island ? — A.A'ery little. 1 lieaved to twice oil' Casciim[)e(|ue. J never liked the place to isli. Q. Did you not lind lish there ? — A. Not many. Q. How far from the coast were you when ycni tried? — A. We tried iDSide of two miles and from that to seven or eight miles oil". Q. Did you fish on the coast of Cape IJretou? — A. Very little; a very little at ISIargaree. Q. Uow far from Margaree were you when you fished ? — A. Probably from one mile to four or five miles olf. Q. Is that a good place for macjkerel ? — A. It is a good place some- inies in the fiiU. It used to be some years ago. Q. In what portion of the year did you iish there, fall or summer ? — A i. I fished there a little while in summer the year 1 was there. (J. How many barrels did you catch there ? — A. I might have caught 0 or 25 barrels there. I was probably there three or four or two or [liree days. Q. You have fished at the Magdalen Islands' — A. Yes; round the llagdalen Islands parts of two years. Q. How far from the coast did you find the mackerel? — A. The years lalire were there we got them ten or twelve from the islands — the main inpiody of the Iish. Q. None nearer? — A. Some we got within two or five miles, all the my from three to fifteen miles, but we fished i)rincipally ten or twelve niles off. That was in 1805. Q. Where did you go to fish for cod? — A. We went on Western 'links and Banquero. Q. Did you take your bait with you ? — A. Yes. Q. You did not buy any? — A. No; we carried salt cliims when I U'llt. Q. How long ago is that? — A. I have not been for nine or ten years. Q. Do you mean to say you never lished for mackerel otherwise than nth salt bait ? — A. No ; we never use fresh bait as heave bait. We ise mackerel to put on our jigs, but for trawl bait we use salt bait al- ogether. Q. When you fish on your own coasts, do you Iish with salt bait '. — . Yes ; for mackerel we do. Q. Is not fresh bait better? — A. No, 1 don't know that it is. I never sed it very often ; not for mackerel. Q. At North Cape what quantity did you take within two or three iles of the shore? — A. We fished about 12 miles to the northward of 'orth Cape. Q. Was that the nearest point to North Cape you fished ? — A. We ave fished nearer than that. We have tried all the w ay from inshore out, but the principal part of the fish we caught out to the north, ex- ept this year, when we fished pretty handy in. t^. You have come in from the bay ? — A. We have been in the bay Ills year. Q. Where did you catch your fish ? — A. This year we caught the prin- pal part of our fish from Escuminac to Port Hood. We fished some 'm\ West (3ape to North Cape ; we caught a few Iish at East Point, and Very few at Port Hood. (i. How far from the shore ? — A. We caught half, nearly half, I should a ! ,-.^-JW-^_-, '■'.ji' -i .*■ V'**'*-;^., .'. ■:^^-y ■■■' I :-^'r>r^^ r*,f^— IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ■"in m ; la ||22 ti£ 20 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 -m 6" — ► V} ^ /a sf^ /a //a 'W '/ Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY M580 (716) 872-4503 o ^o 2416 AWARD OF THE .FISHERY COMMISSION. Q- i. say, innide of two or three mites; some withiu oue mile, and from that out to eight milesi Q. You caught lialf of them witLin those distances from the shore?- A. I should say that this year we got one-half onr fish inside of two or three miles of the shore. Q. How long did it take you to catch those 120 barrels? — A. We went through Causo on 10th of August, and have been fi. 'ung ever since. Q. Did you ever try fishing round Canso? — A. We tried as we wont, We tried off Port Hood a couple of days. At East Point we tried, and went from there to North Cape and tried there, and got a few mackerel, and we went from there to Escuminac and back again. Q. Try to remember where you xsaught your fish this year, and tell tbe Commission exactly what proportion you took within three miles of the shore? — A. I think about one-half. Q. Not more than one-half? — A. I think not more than one-half. Our best fishing was off Escuminac. We struck the fish when we were within sight of tbe to|> of the light, eight or ten miles out. We got fifty or sixty barrels off there the first week ; wc caught nearly all of these out side of three miles. We worked in, and the last few days we were in the bay we wore inside of three miles. I think we took 30 or 40 barrels out of those ~iO or 00 outside. Q. How many men composed j'our crew ? — A. Twelve. Q. Was any 13ritish subject ou board? — A. Yes; we had one. Q. Did you leave him at home, or have you got him still with you :'- A. We took him from home, and we have him now. Q. What is his name? — A. Lawrence Landerkin. Q. Is he from Canso? — A. No; he belongs to Newfoundland. Q. Where did you take him ? — A. I shipped him in Portland. Q. Did you see "ther American fishing- vessels while you were there! — A. Yes ; there have been quite a number. Q. How many ''id you see there together? — A. W^e saw all the wav from three to fifty-odd sail ; American vessels and several English ves sels. Q. And they fished like you, inside, when they could find fish, and also outside ? — A. They all fished together, inside and out. Q. And they took about the same proportion, one-half of their catches inshore ? — A. Yes ; about the same. Q. Do you think you did not take three-quarters of your catch iu shore? — A. Not this year, or any other year. Q. Other years what was the proportion? — A. I think we caught about three-ciuarters outside, and this year we caught fully one-half in- side, or near about that. I kept no particular account of them, because it did not matter to me one way or the other. Q. You say you saw about 50 sail fishing there? — A. There were] about 50 sail one day, and the rest of the time 3, 5, or 8, along there Q. They have all taken tolerably good catches? — A. No; they baveBjjIjy^J^]^"^/' all done very slimly, or the greater part of them. Q. You admit that you have not been very lucky? — A. We bav done about an average of the fleet, £ should say. Q. And the other vessels have done about the same as you '—A, Some have got more and others have not got one-half or onefoiirtb. Some have got double what we did. Q. And some, I suppose, three times what you did ? — A. Some ves sels which went in early have got double what 1 have ; but some whici went in when I did have not got more than half. A\A Q. Did you hea have not heard of ing liOO barrels, i had been iu the bs Q. Do you kno tie belonging to C Q. Do you knov Q. Do you know not. Q. Did you see ber this year. Q. Have you no K. I have not hea Q. Have you set lis year?— A. Ye Q. How many hi Do you re'mer Do you know By Mr. Danj This year, 18] shing?— A. Yes; (^ You did your Q. You caugbtfr Yes. (^ And how mai irobably pack one I Q. How much di( els tbis fail trip. Q. As a com mere sa poor trip. Q. A losing one ?■ Q. Will it be a i !at(!biiig them, not i Q. It will uot pa J flicre this year, I g Q. Were there an isliing which you di liore, ancbored, but lone very well at M ave done as well a> iimpeque liave dont sli inshore to an am Q. Was there an; wtt'd to you to bav ee or hear of any. Q. Is tbere any pi I have far bas been caugb Q. Do you know I shore or off shore t at went early got j i,vin July; but thu lie since we went i Q. You said, in ai e bend of the islan 152 F AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2117 Q. Did you hear of any vessels liaving 300 or 400 barrels ? — A. No; I have not heard of vessels having 400 barrels. I heard of a vessel hav- ing '290 barrels. She is a large vessel and had a crew of 17 men, and bud been in the bay all summer. Q. Do you know the schooner Lettie? — A. I know the scbooner Let- tie belonging to Charlottetown. Q. Do you know Captain Macdonald ! — A. No. Q. Do you know how many barrels the Lettie caught ? — A. No. I do not. Q. Did you see her Ashing with you? — A. I don't remember seeing her this year. Q. Have you not heard from fishermen that she caught 500 barrels? — A. 1 have not heard anything about it. Q. Have you seen any British vessels on the American coast fishing |this year ? — A. Yes. Q. How many have you seen ? — A. I did not see but one. Q. Do you remember her name ? — A. No, I recollect seeing one. Q. Do you know^ the name of her captain ? — A. No. By Mr. Dana: Q. This year, 1877, you think you have given a fair trial to inshore shing ? — A. Yes; we had a good trial of it, I think. Q. You did your best with it? — A. Yes; we tried insliore. Q. You caught from 118 to 120 barrels fishing inshore and outside *. — A. Yes. (^ And how many packed barrels will they make ? — A. They will irobably pack one hundred and seven or one hundred and eight. Q. How much did the vessel fit for ? — A. We only fitted for 200 bar- els this fall trip. Q. As acommercial and money matter, is that bad or good? — A. It IS a poor trip. Q. A losing one ? — A. It is losing money. Q. Will it be a pretty considerable loss ? — A. For the time we were atehitig them, not much loss, but no money. Q. It will not pay? — A. It will not pay. Fishing will not pay any- rhere this year, I guess. (^ Were there any places where there was reported to be good inshore sliiiig which yon did not try ? — A. Tlie boats have done very well in- bore, anchored, but we could not fish among them. The boats have lone very well at Miminegash, Prince Edward Island, this year. They Hvo done as well as they have done for some time. The boats at Cas- !iimi)eque have done very slimly this year, I have been told. Tlie boats sh inshore to an anchor. Q. Was there any place where vessels went inshore which was re- rti'd to you to have good fishing that you did not try ? — A. I did not e or hear of any. Q. Is there any place where vessels went where they have done well shore ? — A. I have not heard of it. The pruicipal part of the fish tliis ear has been caught inshore, as nigh as I can judge. Q. Do you know by direct report or otherwise of any vessels fishing shore or off shore that have done well this year? — A. Some vessels [bat went early got good, fair trips ; 5 or 0 vessels did that went in the ly in July ; but those are the only ones I have heard of. Nothing was lie since we went in ; the vessels did not do anything in August. Q. You said, in answer to one of the counsel, that you did not like >e bend of the island. Why is this the case? — A. I have not made a 152 F I v\i'M '"'!l 2418 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. m N practice of fishin;; there, auy longer than with a good wind wo could go | from one end of it to the other, going or coming. Q. What is the reason? — A. It is because it is a bad place, and I did I not lilie to stop there. It is well enough, however, close to North CajiJ and East Point, where you can watch your chance to get round \vlieu| there comes a northeaster. By Mr. Doutre : Q. I understand that your catch this year was an average one?— A. I think we got an average with the American fleet, as far as I have hoard, Mr. Murray, of the custom-house at Canso, said that we had an average,] or more than an average, with the American fleet. Q. Do you not think that you came rather late Ashing to, and have I come rather early from the bay ? — A. 1 did not see any i)rospect of| catching anything when I left, and so 1 thought I would come home. Something may yet be done though. (i. Is it not to your knowledge that the mackerel generally come in i;i| abundance later than this date? — A. No; notof late years. IhaveiiotJ during the last 5 or 6 years, heard of much being done late in the sea I son in the bay. Q. What is the quality of the mackerel which you have taken tliisl year ? — A. Well, they run rather poor ; thay are mostly 2s, and tbinl mackerel. They have not had much food ; they are not fat. Q. What proportion is number ones ? — A. I do not think cne-quarterl if that. They, however, may be so this year, since mackerel are scarce,! Q. What (io you expect to get for number ones? — A. About $lk tit two hundred and eighty barrels of mackerel. We came into the gnlf lato that lea.sun. She was sixty-three tons, and that time carried thirteen hands. That fully three-quarters of the lish taken in these schooners were taken close to the kuiro, or within three miles along this island, Miscou, Hay Chalour, the Magdalens, and ItlitT places on the Britisli coitsts. Taking the season through, the inshore tishing is IbeWst. I believe that it would not be at all worth while to lit c'lt fur this gulf if ihe vessels were not allowed to lish inshore. Q. Had you a license when in the bay » — A. No. Q. You know nothing about the cutters? — A. Yes; when I was there, 1 187-*, there were cutters iu the bay. There were plenty of cutters, but ko fisli. {). When there were plenty of cutters in the bay there were no fish |)r Americans f — A. Yes; that is probable ; but Q. Do you want to exphiin that any further? — A. Just so; but tho liova Scotian vessels had the same trouble, too. 1 Q. Were they kept out ? — A. The Nova Scotian vessels did not do iny better than our own vessel. That is between you and me. Q. We want to know about it. — A. That is the idea, and the true ling. |Q. That is just what we want to come at and ascertain. — A. Yes; go |Q. If you have any information to give about it. Were they kept out the 3-mile limit ?— A. No. I Q. Were you ? — A. Yes ; we were. Q. Constantly ? — A. But there were no fish inshore or offshore. |Q. Were you kept constantly outside of the 3-mile limit ? — A. Well, I could not say that we were constantly, because the cutters would bt be in sight all the time, of course. [Q. What vessel were you iu theu ? — A. The George Clark ; year JQ. When the cutters were out of sight, would you steal inside of the Iniile limit ? — A. No ; we would not. JQ. You did not try to go in ? — A. No. IQ. You. never fished inside of the 3-mile limit? — A. No. IQ. You never hove to inside of the three-mile limit? — A. No; I do )t think that I ever did so in my life. Of course if there had been any 1 iushore or any inducement for us to go in we would have done so. IQ. And you never tried inshore in your life ? — A. I never did ; no. |Q. You never heard of three-quarters of the fish being taken within (three-mile limit, as mentioned in C. W. Duun's deposition ? — A. Yes; Jiave heard tell of vessels fishing inshore. IQ. And making large catches i — A. No; I never hejudice in this regard .'—A, "What is the use of our going to try for lish where we know there are iio| fish. Q. Precisely, but you did not know; how did you find out f — A. Woi not the boats fishing right along as we went along the shore, and wi could see whether they were getting fish or not. The boats were strmi all around the shore. Q. Now you are telling us something. — A. Yes; I am glad of it. Q. IIow many thousand boats fished inside the three mil j limit aroiin Prince Edwanl Island ! — A. I do not know, but I know that a gieal many boats fished around the coast. Q. How much did these boats catch, on the average ? — A. I do u know. Q. Did you ever try to ascertain ? — A. No. Q. Did you ever make inquiries respecting this matter? — A. No. Q. Have you any idea respecting it f — A. No. Q. Do you know from personal observation what they caught ?— .' No. Q. And yet you never tried inshore! — A. Not within the three mil limit. Q. The cutters never gave you any trouble? — A. No; their men onl| boarded us and told us that we were not allowed to fish within tlii miles of the shore. Q. And you obeyed the order? — A. Yes. Q. How far did you ever go inshore to fish ? — A. Well, probab| within five or six miles of laud. Q. Have you any preference as to fishing six miles off, over four iniii off? — A. Well, of course there is no way for us to tell the exact distiim Q. Have you any such preference? — A. Of course not. Q. Is five miles off any better than four and a half miles for lisliii purposes? — A. That does not amount to anything with me. We were we find fish. We catch them five miles offshore and ten miles when the fish are there. Q. If the fish i oliJtM;fion to cat< Q. Have you j (^ Von think lor lishing? — \, Q. V<»u think uiiik»' any odds v y. Do yoii thi ami a half miles, Q. < >!• better tl Q. Or 10 miles asfiir as I can se Q. Von don't k a half miles and oiif, ofsightofljin Q. And sonietii aifc 1 ever made ' Q. We have hai oiUof sight of Ian ami yet they novci ttiis good fishing i Q. Do you not t Q. What about Q. What about — tlie limit. Q. You said voii liiilf miles offshore don't see any ditle Q. Dut tins is w al>oiit it; I am qu iloiie better outsidt I was in the bay in all in the bay. Q. You dill bette [mackerel I ever sav 'rere got offshore. Q. You were in tl |1S71' and 1873. Q. In 1870 you W( |ivas there in 1870ai , Q. And 1873 als [rifflit. Q. Besides 1800. trips in the bay inst Q. And in 1870 y( Q. And only 70 bi (^ And only 90 bi Q. It was an utter 'II, after we got hoi Q. That was a fail Q. Can you give u Ifter 1870 ?-A. It w Q. I thought you I iisiinderstood me th Q. Then you do n( AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2425 Q. If the flsh wore thivo tiiid a liiilf miles oil' shore, you would have no olij(><;ti«>ii to catch thciu there If — A. Not in the least. Q. Have you any choice as to distance i — A. No. Q. Vou think that live miles i»ll' is hotter than threo and a half milci} for lisliinjf? — A. It «loes not make any od or not by running along it and looking at the boats. We can toil whether a man is catching fish or not by looking at him without askiri<; a question ; and by running along the coast and looking at the boats \vu can see for ourselves. Q. Did you ever make any inquiries as to the catch of the boats during the season f — A. No. Q. Did you make any inquiries whatever of the boatmen with re- spect to the boat-fisheries ? — A. Well, I have talk»>.i the matter over; while in the harbor I hiive seen men whom I have asked if any of the boats were doing anything, or had done anything round the shore, aud the like of that, you know. Q. In which harbor did you do this? — A. Well, in Port Hood. Q. Whom did you ask ? — A. Now, you have got me. I don't know one boat-fisherman from another. Q. How often did you so inquire in Port Hood, or anywhere else ?— A. Perhaps I might have inquired once or twice, or it might have been half a dozen times, I could not say which. Q. Did you inquire in Port Hood as to what the average catch of the boats was, or how they had done during the season ? — A. No ; I never asked, save as to whether they had done anything along the shore. Q. During the season f — A. No; but at that time — that day or that week. I would ask if they had been doing anything inshore. Q. That was after their fishing was over. You were not there till the fall?— A. Yes. Q. Then I suppose you found out that their fishery was over for the] season ? — A. Do they not get mackerel on shore in the fall as well as iii|^ the summer ! Q. What did you find out from them ?— A. W^ell, the answer I got from them was that the boats were doing nothing. Q. They were not then fishing at all ? — A. Well, they were trying, seems. Q. What is the fishing season for the boats ? — A. Well, I think that it belongs to me to answer that question. Q. How often did you find out that the boats were doing nothing, an t daring what months? — A. such inquiry. Well, it was, say, in October that I madi 0. Were you Q. Had you 1 iu Septeniber. Q. IIow long about the middl Q. At what ti ba?>s the first or Q. And you ft 8nid they were Q. Then you ^ ii. Whs that that might have Q- i>id you as Q You then o that day or that Q. How did y( lessf—A. From Q. What did amount to anythi wanted to know not, we would se( whether they had fish there we won which we could g Q. I understoot vessels, and that do. Then you di naturally so. Q. Aud did vou it. By Mr. Whi Q. Are you part A. No. Q. Were you pai Q. You fished on Q. You were a h; Q. You have bee A. Yes. Q. And this is thi Q. How many m( teen, all told. Q. In the spring, lliet a supply of arti think so. I think Q. The owners of 'amilies during theii ft. I know that as i Q. During their i luire?— A. Anythiu Q. Is the ordinary 1^ ..n. '""^ ' — ^' ^ ^ave ne do uol|et enough out of th Q. The firms do Well, thi ion?— A. think they make e^ Q. You know that AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2427 0. W«»ro you on yonr wny home in October T — A. No. Q. Had you then just coinu into tlio buy f — A. I oanio in some time iu September. Q. llow long did you wait tln»re f — A. We gonernlly loft tlio bay about the inidtlln of October. Wo UHed to do »o. Q. At what time in October did you make such inciuiricH .' — A. Per- blips tlie firNt or perbapH the last of September. (J. And you found out tliat tlie boats wore doing nothin;^ ?— A. They sniii tliey were not. Q. Tlienyou did not try there? — A. No, not in there. (^ Whs that the reason why you did not try in there? — A. Partly; that might have been partly tlie reason. Q. Did you ask what the boats had done, or usually did ? — A. No. Q. You then only made inquiry as to what the boat tlshurs were doing tbiit day or that week, as the case might be? — A. Yes. Q. How did yon learn that the shore fisheries were useless and worth- less f — A. From what we could hear. Q. What did you hear? — A. What you are talking about don't aiiiuunt to anything as I can see. If wo were in Port liood Harbor and wanted to know whether there was any fishing round about there or not, we would see other skippers, &c., and find out in a very short time wliether they had done anything off shore or on, and if there were no fish there we would go to what we considered the most likely place at which we could get them. Q. I understood you to say you did not make inquiries of any other I vessels, and that to mind your own business was as mucli as you could do. Then you did inquire what other vessels had caught? — A. Yes;^ I naturally so. Q. And did you find out what they caught? — A. No; I do not think lit. • By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Are you part owner of the vessel of which you are now captain ? — I A. No. Q. Were you part owner of the Knight Templar? — A. No. Q. You fished on thfc Grand Banks from 1801 to 1800 ?— A. Yes. Q. You were a hand then ? — A. Yes. Q. You have been on the Grand Banks during the last two years ? — lA. Yes. Q. And this is the extent of your experience in that fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. How many men are on board of your present vessel ? — A. I'our- |teen, all told. Q. In the spring, when the vessel is fitted out, do each of these men Iget a supply of articles to leave with their families — an advance ? — A. |l think so. I think that the firms supply them with outfits. Q. The owners of the vessel supply them with a sufficiency for their Ifaaiilies during their absence ? — A. 1 think so, but I am not sure about It. I know that as a general thing the families draw on the men. Q. During their absence, their wives or families get what they re- (luire ? — A. Anything in reason, of course. I understand so. Q. Is the ordinary cash price or a large profit charged for these arti- fcles ? — A. I have never been a member of such a firm ; but I think they |et enough out of the business to run ?t of cours!> — a fair profit. Q. The firms do not charge the ordinary cash piice lii this rela- lion ? — A. Well, they ought not to ; they ar.^ not going to get cash ; ]think they make enough to get a living out c£ the business. Q. You know that they do charge a long profit ? — A. No ; I do not ^1 n Fit f}^ :k k& n'H'fAHfUmmni 2428 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. think Mint thoy do; but I think that thoy char^jc profit enough to niiikc themselves whole, taking one >^uar with another. Q. Is tlieir percentage 'M or* 40 per cent, above the cash price t — A. It is 20 or 125 per cent., I tiiink, over anil above it. Q. I8 n<»t a greater price than the ordinary cash price charged for tlio articles reqnired for the llttiiif out of a vessel ? — A. No, 1 do not think 80. Q. Do you know whether this is so or not ! — A. I have been part owner of ,J vessels, and for outtits from spring to the fall we expected to pay probably 15 per cent, over and above the cash price in consideration for the ilelay. Q. Tiien the supplier charges 15 percent, over and above the cash price for articles supplied ? — A. Yes ; something like that ; he has jjot to have it for the use of his money ; such dillerence is 15 or 20 i)er cent., or somewhere along there ; I could not say exactly what it is. Q. What would it cost to pack and cure a barrel of mackerel for market 1 — A. I am not prejjared to answer that (piestion. Q. Would $1 pay all such expenses f — A. 1 think not; the barrel it self is worth somewhere about a dollar; I think they charge $2 for I)acking a barrel of mackerel — for barrel and all. Q. That leaves a handsi>;ai^ profit to the packer; something like 50 or 60 cents ? — A. Yes, about that. Q. What does it cost to cure a quintal of Bank codfish ? — A. I could not state such cost correctly ; we bring our fish iu cured in quintals, and weigh them from the hatch and sell them. Q. To the owners of the vessels! — A. Sometimes, and sometimes to .others. Q. But, as a general thing, the owner of the vessel takes the voyage as soon as the vessel arrives f — A. Y'es. Q. The fish is weighed out, and you are credited with a certain price for them ? — A. Yes. Q. What does it cost to cure for market dried codfish ? — A. I think that at Beverly thy charge 25 cents a (piiutal for making the fish after it comes from the hatch. By Mr. Foster : Q. Salt included f — A. They do not use any salt there ; but in Glou cester they do. By Mr. W^hiteway: Q. Is there any other expense? — A. Yes, if the flsh are boxed up for market. Q. is there not an arrangement made among the vessel-owners and suppliers for the Bank fishery as to the price which they will credit the fishermen for their fish ? — A. 1 think so. Q. So that immediately after a vessel comes iu with a cargo the price to be credited is known from such previous arrangement among the merchants? — A. Y'es. Q. What is the difference between the prices allowed by the urt chants and the market-price for dried codfish ? — A. I cannot say. Q. Does not the owner of the vessel make a profit of something like $1 ii quiiiUl upon the tish when cured and read}' for market? — A.I think they calculate to make seventy-five cents or a dollai ; but tliey do not always obtain it. Q. To what place did you go from Gloucester last year iu the Knight Templar !— A. To the Western Bank first. Q. Had you fresh bait ? — A. Yes. AA Q. Did yon tak Q. Where did; Q. Did you g« ast year? — A. Y Q. Where did . Q. When were Q. Was that af Island?— A. Yes went to Uernntag Q. And yon the Q. Dii! tijj- ii jjil: ; li^^ LiM El' :!) achs on the Bunks ? — A. Caplin and lantz, and what we call Rank clams and crabs. Q. Have yon fished for cod on Western Banks, Grand Bunks, aiid Georpe's Bank? — A. Yes. Q. Have yon observed any difference between the cod on these sevoral Banks? — A. Yes. Q. Can yon describe it ? — A. Yes. Tlio Western Bank cod are not nearly so large as the Grand Bank cod ; there is more of a black nii|te on the former than on the latter, and tlio former are not so well fed, and they are very watery and slim. The Grand Bank cod are the laifjest fish, and they resemble each other more as to quality. Tliey are large, white naped, and well fed — better fed than the Western i^ank cod. The latter are small and black, and they are thinner than tbe others. By Mr. Foster: Q. Wliat do you mean by black naped? — A. The nape is the belly part — it is a little thin skin over the belly of the fish. Q. Yonr family does not have to get advances in your business ?— A, No, and I am not posted much in that line. No. 4ii. Friday, October 5, 1877. The Conference met. Robert H. Hulbbrt, fisherman,of Gloucester, was called, on belialt| of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. How old are you ? — Answer. Thirty-ftve. Q. Where were you born ? — A. In Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. Q. You have been a fisherman and captain of fishing and trading ves sels for some years ? — A. Yes. Q. When did yon first fish for mackerel in the Gulf of Saint Law rence?— A. In 1861, I think. Q. In what vessel were you then ? — A. The Roger Williams. Q. What was the name of her captain ? — A. Lane. Q. How many fish did you take ? — A. Two hundred aiMi sixty barrel I believe, but I would not be certain. Q. Have you any means of refreshing your memory as to dates am catches? — A. No. Q. You are now pilot on the Speedwell ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you catch your fish the first year you were in the gulf! A. Principally at the Magdalen Islands. The last we caught wei taken near Fisherman's Bank, between Cape George and Prince Edwan Island. Q. Were any portion taken within 3 miles of the shore? — A. I ooiill not say ; but probably not more than one-eighth were so caught, as have found this to be the case on different trips made since. Q. What were you doing from 1802 to 18(!5 ? — A. I was engaged different kinds of fishing, bnt mostly in cod-fishing. I sometimes tisbi for mackerel on our own coast. Q. W^hen did you make your second mackerel trip to the gulf? — A cannot be certain as to the year, because it was some time afterward Q. What was the name of your vessel ? — A. The Pocnmtuc, I tliiii Q. Who was her captain ? — A. George H. Hurlbert, my brother Q. You cannot fix that year accurately ? — A. No. Q. What was your catch ? — A. About 180 barrels. Q. Where we Some were caug Q. How man; to the best of li hood of 30 or 31 Q. Were anv shore ? — A. A *c l8lve moderate southerly and westerly winds they will naturally work toiig a little faster than if it was a cold and backward spring. They >ry considerably in the time of their appearance. Q. Give us the average approximate dates when they make their ap- irauce off Gape Delaware. — A. It is something like fifteen days per- 2438 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. m baps at the average, bnt if it is not a moderate season it would probablv be from fifteen to eighteen days. Q. I want to learn the average date of their appearance off Cap« jnll spell, during \ AWA irellasi?— A. Prob l\'li«iu the mackerel Delaware ; which is the earliest and which the latest date T — A. It would be somewhere about the 10th of May, and perhaps sometimes a liitle earlier than that. Q. At what date do they reach Sandy Hook ? — A. Probably ahout the 16th of May they arrive there, and afterward they reach Muiitak Point, at the east end of Long Island. They stop longer oil' New York than ofl[' any other part of the coast. We cannot tell exactly when thev come to Montak, because after they leave the grounds off New York we think they go to the bottom and spawn ; the schools are then broken up a great deal at certain points ; after they go along the coast of Long Islaud, or get down that way, they do not appear to be in as great a body as they are off' New York ; they do not school so often in these quarters. Q. And you think that the schools begin to break up at that point 7— A. Yes ; as a general thing. By Sir Alexander Gait: Q. Is that at Sandy Hook ? — A. It occurs east of it on the coast oKere" wiilnoT be so Long Island. Jk^n the^e^ By Mr. Foster : Q. When do the mackerel reach the vicinity of Cape Cod and Nau- tucket ? — A. The schools vary considerably in this respect. The tisli that pass through by the Vineyard get through early, but the fish tliai go outside do not get along quite so early. Sometimes part of them will get down through by the Vineyard by the Ist of June, or perhaps the 10th of June ; but the fish that go outside will be a little later. Q. Where are the spawning places for mackerel off the United State! coast ? — A. We think that a great quantity of them spawn on tho south west part of George's Bank and about Nantucket Shoals, off Saukatj orth of the light-shi] Head, and on the fishing-ground off there ; a large fishing-ground i: Q. How many maci situated southeast or east of Nantucket. Iiere, by one vessel ?- Q. Coming north of Nantucket Shoals, where are the spawnini y vessels in one day, grounds found ? — A. Sankaty Head is where there is a lighthouse oi Q. When you were the eastern part of Nantucket Island, I believe. Q. When was this? Q. Southwest from George's Bank ? — A. Yes. Q. That was before Q. Where do you find their spawning grounds, to the northward o re so caught there v; this? — A. On the different Banks around Massachusetts Bay, I sup imes earlier. We soi pose, though I never caught any spawning there, but I have caugh 5 to 45 miles off the mackerel there at different times out of which spawn would run. Q. Where is Barneg By Sir Alexander Gait : | ^H^^a^e^a''** *' Q. At what date was this the case? — A. Probably from the Ist t( ythevessel?— A So the loth of June ; those fish do not all spawn at the same time. Tlii (rhaps more, depends on the time when they arrive on the coast. Those that pas through the Vineyard do not generally spawn until after they ge through. By Mr. Foster : Q. Give the earliest and the latest dates for the spawning season a Ihey have gone dowi if them, and before if a great many of tome up again in ifter the o|)euing of hem. Q. How soon do t; ug is over ?— A. Yc lesh in a fortnight's Q. Name the poin aken in large quai lorthward, and the liese ]>oiuts? — A, \^ lirough, out near th astward of Nantucl if mackerel after th By Sir Alexan Q. When does thi Otii of July, sometin By Mr. Foster Q. Mention the m Q abundance? — A. ^ here near half-way oast there we find th the different points on our coast ?— A. This would extend probably froi "o of May, and may the 15th of June to the Ist of July. Q. Then you think that their spawning is concluded on our coast b the Ist of July?— A. Yes. Q. Huw long do the different spawning times for the schools of luack I hav( one haul of the sein Q. When was that ' Q. What is the ne: andy Hook. Q. When are they c ew York ; their stay Q. How large a catcl ■ This last spring we Q. Which is the ne: edo not find anvtbin AWARD OF THE FISUERY COMMISSION. 2439 irel last ? — A. Probably not more than 10 days, and i)erhaps not so loner* When the mackerel are spawning, in oar opinion, there is generally a jail spell, during which they do not school or go into deep water, as Ibey have gone down, we think, to spawn. We do not then catch many it them, and before this dull spell commences, the soawn is running out if a great many of them quite freely. When we find that they have lit lome up again in bodies — which is probably ten days or a fortnight liter the opening of the dull spell — we find that the spawn is out of rkBhem. Q. How soon do they begin to be in good condition after their spawn - ng is over ? — A. You can perceive that they have increased some in esh in a fortnight's time afterwards. Q. Name the points on the American coast at which the mackerel are aken in large quantities, beginning to the southward, and running lorthward, and the particular seasons when these tlsh are abundant at liese i)ointsf — A. We find quite a body of fish after their spawning is lirough, out near the south shoal lightship at Nantucket, and off to the astward of Nantucket Island ; southeast of that we And quite a body if mackerel after their spawning is done, some years ; and some years here will not be so many there ; but generally a number of flsh are aken there. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. When does this take place ? — A. From the 25th of June to the Otii of July, sometimes ; the dates vary some. By Mr. Foster : Q. Mention the most southerly point where the mackerel are found Q abundance? — A. We never find any extra fishing until we get some- here near half-way between Capo Cod and Sandy Hook ; along the oast there we find the flsh considerably plentiful. We find them there m liere, by one vessel ? — A. I have known 100 barrels to be taken there y vessels in one day. Q. When you were with them ? — A. Yes ; I saw them at the time. Q. When was this ? — A. Somewhere along about the 1st of May. Q. That was before they had spawned ? — A. Yes ; the date when they re so caught there varies sometimes; it is sometimes later and soun^- 'm» earlier. We sometimes take large quantities off Barnegat, from ) to 45 miles off the land. Q. Where is Barnegat ? — A. It is situated probably five-eighths of the ay from Cape Cod to Sandy Hook. Q. How large a quantity have you known to be taken off Barnegat ly the vessel ? — A. Sometimes we get in one haul there 150 barrels and rhaps more. I have been there when 140 barrels were taken in a day one haul of the seine. Q. When was that?— A. Probably from the Ist to the 5th of May. Q. What is the next point farther north! — A. Off New York, and ndy Hook. Q. When are they canght there ? — A. Perhaps from the 6th to the h of May, and may be a little later. The fish remain some time off few York ; their stay depends on the weather. Q. How large a catch have you known to be taken in one day there? — This last spring we took as high as 180 barrels at one haul there. Q. Which is the next point? — A. After the mackerel get by there, '«do not find anything that is extra good fishing until we get down I 2440 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. towards the 8outh Bhual light-sliip, near Nantucket ; perhaps there tuay be Monie at Montauk, but there are nut ho many there as down about the light-ship. There is no extra good Ashing uear Montauk Uur ing the tirst part of the season. (j. Uuw large a catch have you known to be made there f — A. Tlie schools at this point are generally broken up a great deal. Q. You think that the schools break up f — A. Yes. Q. How many barrels have you ever known to be taken there in cue day ! — A. Perhaps from 20 to 40 barrels. il. What is the next place! — A. The next place, where we find largo schools, is down about the South Shoal lightship. Q. Vou have omitted to mention Jilock Island T — A. Well, we do iiot| find mackerel there to any amount early in the summer. Q. How early do you llnd them there! — A. We find them there iu| suiull schools about the same time as off Montauk. Q. What is the season for fishing at Block Island? — A. Along ml midsummer. Q. After they have spawned? — A. Yes; fish have been caught tlii^ I summer uear Montauk Point. Those are fish that do not come uortli I any farther, but stay at filock Island all summer. Q. Give an account of Block Island mackerel-fishing, and state thel quality caught, the times when taken, and the quantities of the catclitsl made there. — A. They have been taken this year there in very srnulll schools, and as low as 5 barrels in a school, though there have been a$| high as I'OO barrels taken in a school this summer after the 1st of July; there was nothing done before that there of any account. Q. How was the fishing last year at Block Island ? — A. We did notl have any vessels there last summer. Oue or two vessels went therel and staid a short time, and two out of that number got trips. Q. What is the quality of Block Island mackerel? — A. These fish are| commonly large enough and long enough for extra ones. Q. By that you mean mess mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What are they sold for 1 — A. I do not know what price they havel brought this summer. We did not mess our mackerel; but probably] they will bring from $26 to $27 a barrel. Q. Is their price a good deal higher than that of any other mackerelj which comes to the market ? — A. Yes. Q. Where is the next place at which the mackerel are found in abun-j dunce 'I — A. East of Block Island. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. When are the fine mackerel which you have just mentioned takiu!] — A. From the last of July and all through August. By Mr. Foster : Q. You say that this school of mackerel does not go farther north f- A. Yes. Q. Explain why you think so. — A. I say so because we do not catcl any schools of that sized mackerel any distance to the nor'ard of tbil point, or more than 20 miles to the north of Block Island. We get aa odd mackerel, overgrown, in a school, once in a while, but we do noj meet with schools of such mackerel any distance north of Block Island Q. You are satisfied that this school goes no father north ? — A. Ye:^ Q. Is that the commonly received opinion ? — A. We have never takel notice of this fact until of late years, although those fish were there pref viously. Those who have fished there during different seasons tell uif that these fish have been there every season ^r a uumbej: of years. AWARD OF TII£ FI8HEKY COMMISSION. 2441 Q. Where m the next place at which mackerel are taken T — A. We do uut take luaiiy after we leave thitt poiut until we reach Nantucket. Q. When are they found there ! — A. After they have Hpawned. Q. Give the dates an near as you can in this regard. — A. They are tuQiid here from the 2Uth or the 25th of June until the lOth of July [Hir- biipH; this would be about the period during which the largest body of ti8b is met with at this point. Q. Is there a school which stays about Nantucket all summer ? — A. Xo. Q. Why do they go there ? — A. I do not know. I suppose that part loftliuui go there to spawn. This is where we miss them after they drst kuiiit! theie; we lose the lish that tirst come ou the coast there for a I short time. Q. What is the greatest catch which you have known to be made iu I a day by one vessel off Nantucket? — A. I have known vessels take a ticliool, which they could not handle, there in a day ; they would have to let a large quantity of the flsh go out before they could handle the I seine. Q. What is the largest number of barrels which you have known to lite brought on deck 1 — A. We took 200 barrels there this summer, and, Utter taking this quantity out, we gave the seine over to another vessel which took out an additional 150 barrels, and then a shark went through the seine, tearing it to pieces, so they lost the rest, and consequently |\ve do not know how many barrels were in the seine. Q. Why did you give away 150 barrels t — A. Because we could not Idress any more than we had taken out. We had all we could take care |of iu good weather. Q. And you know that 350 barrels were taken out of the seine before |tbe shark destroyed it 1 — A. Yes. Q. When was this? — A. Icannotgive the exact date, but it happened |some time between the 5th of June and the 10th of July. Q. Had the tish then spawned ? — A. Yes. Q. It was after the mackerel were in good condition ? — A. We got a ■very small quantity of twos out of this catch, and twos were the best \w could gee out of them at that time of the year. Q. What is the case north of Nantucket Shoals ? — A. We will find |tbat same body of fish after they leave that place ou George's Bank. Q. Iluve you seined there ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the largest quantity which you have known one vessel to Iseiue there in one day ? — A. I can only speak iu this relation concern- tug vessels in which I have myself been. We have taken 100 and 110 Ibairels at a haul there. Q. At what time during the summer? — A. Probably about the 20th |of July. Q. Were those mackerel in good condition ? — A. There were some 01168 among them then. Q. They had fattened up some ? — A. Yes. Q. Where is the next point at which mackerel are found ? — A. The jiiext point of any consequence is situated on the coast of Maine, near luuhegan and Mount Desert Islands. Mouhegau Island lies otf the uoiith of the Penobscot. Q. How far is this from Mount Desert ? — A. I do uot know exactly, [jut it is Homewhere about 40 miles from it. Q. Is that iu the Bay of Penobscot ? — A. This island lies off shore — the western part of Penobscot Bay, outside. Q. How largo au island is it ? — A. I cannot tell exactly. 2442 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. mm ;t~W! Q. Has it any inhabitants? — A. Yes; quite a number of flahennen live on it. I suppose it has 100 inhabitants, and perhaps more. It belongs to the State of Maine. Q. How large a catch have you known to be made there in a day hy one vessel ? — A. We do not generally catch there more than from 100 to 125 barrels in a haul. Sometimes, however, vessels get more there; but I have known that to be done in a day. Q. When T — A. From the last of July along through August. Q. What is the quality of the fish caught in this locality? — A. All that are largo and long enough are fit for number ones. Q. What does this indicate with respect to fatness ? — A. There are no particularly long ones ; but at that time of the year, they are fat enough for ones, if they are long enough. Q. What is the next place ? — A. Well, we remain there the bigger part of the season until the mackerel begin to move westward again. Q. Do you not go nearer to Mount Desert than that ? — A. We find the best fishing between Monhegan Island and Mount Desert; this is the ground we fish on from the last of July all through August. Q. Over how large a space ? — A. Along a coast of 40 miles perhaps, and perhaps a little more ; we fish all the way from 10 to 50 miles oil' the | shore there out to Jeffrey's Bank, and eveu farther than that. At this point the examination of this witness was interrupted by con- sent of the Commission, to allow of the hearing of other testimony. No. 43. Castanus M. Smalley, fisherman, of Belfast, Me., was called on be- 1 half of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana: Question. Did you sail out of Rockland or Belfast? — Answer. ily| vessel sails from Hockland. Q. When did vou begin to go fishing ? — A. In 1858. Q. Did you fish during 1858, 1859, and 1860 ?— A. Yes. Q. In the bay ?— A. Yes. Q. How many trips did you make in 1858? — A. One. Q. How many fish did you then catch ? — A. 200 barrels. Q. Did you catch any of these within three miles of the shore ?— No ; they were all taken on Banks Orphan and Bradley. Q. How many barrels did you catch in 18ij9 ? — A. About 175. Q. And in 1860 ?— A. About 200 barrels. Q. Did you pack out thai number ? — A. These were what we call sea-| barrels. Q. Did you try to fish inshore ? — A. Yes. Q. In what way ? — A. With hooks and lines and bait. Q. Did you go in and drift out ? — A. Yes ; we hardly ever anchor] when we are fishing for mackerel. Q. What portion of your fish, at the outside, do you think you caiiKbd inshore within three miles of the coast in 1860 ? — A. Possibly one-tliirdj Q. That is the outside figure ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you find the most and the best mackerel during tbes^ three years — inshore or off shore ? — A. Oflf shore. Q. There is no question about that ? — A. No. Q. After 1860 you were not fishing for some years ? — A. Yes. Q. How many ?— A. I think that I started fishing again in 1^66, tbj year after the war. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2443 Sahermen luoro. It a day by oin 100 to bere; but It. ?— A. All There are ey are fat the bigger I apaiu. L. We find irt; this is LSt. ?8 perhaps, , liles off the | ted by con- imony. sailed on be- 1 [imiued. inswer. My I shore ?— A.| 175. , we call sea- iver ancboi In what vessel were you in 1858 1 — A. The Georgiaua, of Oobassot. And in 1859 ? — A. I was then in the same vessel. And in 18C0? — A. I was then in the Star of Hope, of Cohasset. Were you in the service of the United States iu the Army ? — A. When did you join the Army ? — A. In July, 1802. And until when did you stay iu it? — A. Ontil the 7th of June, you cangli' y one-third ariug tbesi BTes. feu l^OG, tbi Q. Q. Q. Q. Yes. Q. Q. 1805. Q. When did you next go fishing ? — A. I next went to the bay, I tbiiik, iu 1867. Q. Did you fish in 1860?— A. Yes. Q. Where ? — A. Partly on our shore. Q. In a fishing- vessel? — A. Yes. Q. For what? — A. Mackerel, Q. At what part of the American shore did you fish ? — A. We fished all the way from Mount Desert Kock to Cashes Ledge and Cape Cod. Q. In 1807 you came to the bay ? — A. Yes. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you then catch ? — A. About 20O.' Q. What was the name of your vessel that year? — A. The Florence Beed. Q. Where did you fish ? — A. At the Magdalen Islauds. Q. Did you catch all your fish there ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you have a license in 1807 ? — A. Yes. Q. And still you caught all your fish off the Magdalen Islands ? — A. lYes. Q. And made no use of your license? — A. No. Q. Where did you fish in 1868? — A. Ou our shore. Q. For mackerel ? — A. For codfish and mackerel. Q. Between Mount Desert and Cape Cod? — A. For mackerel; yes. Q. Where did you fish for cod ? — A. Ou the Western Bank for the ipring trip. Q. Were vou in the bay in 1809?— A. Yes. Q. And also in 1870 ?— A. Yes. Q. What did you catch in 1870? — A. We carried out of the bay that ear 200 barrels. Q. That was the last time that you were then in the bay? — A. Yes. Q. What did j'ou fit for? — A. That was all the vessel would carry; e were full. I am in the same veSvsel now. Q. What is her name ? — A. The Esperauza. Q. What portion of your floh was caught broad off shore and more an three miles from the coast ? — A. From ouc-third to one-half were iken offshore and the retj, eel-grass mackerel, were caught inshore. Q. Where ? — A. Principally around Prince Edward Island. Q. Of what quality were these mackerel ? — A. They were poor. Q. How came you to fish there for poor mackerel ; were there none be caught outside? — A. I presume that some were to be cauf^fit out- [de at the time, but if a man gets a catch of fish inshore, he i& liable to p there and see if he can get another one. Q. Where were you fishing iu 1871 and 1872 ? — A. On the American 8t. Q. Were you fishing for cod and mackerel? — A. We were cod-fishing the spring trips, and we fished for mackerel duriug the rest of the sou. In the spring we were on the Westeru Bank and not ou the nd Bauk. How did you do? — A. Very well, iudeed. 2144 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Were you in 1873 in the bay again ? — A. Yes. Q. In what vessel were you in 18G8 ? — A. The Esperanza. Q. Were you in the same vessel in 1869 ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been in her ever since ? — A. No. Q. In 1809 you were in her ? — A. Yes. Q. In 1870 !— A. Yes. Q. In 1871 ?— A. Yes. Q. In 1872 ?— A. I was in her. Q. In 1873 you were in the bay again ? — A. Yes. Q. How many trips ? — A. I made one in the vessel myself and came down, and the second trip I stopped ashore. Q. Was that the Esperanza ? — A. No, it was the Ernest F. Norwood. How many did you catch ? — A. 230. I am pretty positive it was Q. that. Q. 260. Q. Did you hear anything about the second trip ? — A. I heard it was You learned that from whom! — A. From the master, Captain] Adams. Q. Is it true that the vessel got 400 barrels the second trip ? — A. Xo, | I do not think it is. Q. Why not? — A. In the first place, I do not think the master would | lie about it, and in the second place the vessel could not carry them. Q. That was in 1873, you are sure ? — A. Yes. Q. Those 230 caught when you were on board her, where were they I taken? — A. They were principally taken from Bank Orphan to East| Port. Q. Offshore? — A. Well, I should say so. I mean the principal part| of them was taken off shore. Q. How many of the 230 do you think were taken near inshore!— A.j Well, it is a pretty hard matter for a man to stand on deck and tellj whether it is within three or six miles, but a man's judgment would lead! him. I should say that perhaps one- third of the whole trip was takeu| within between three and five miles. Q. Do you think you took any within less ? — A. Yes, there might be| some. Q. What proportion of the whole was taken within less than tbre miles? — A. There might be 30 or 40. Q. You tried inside and outside? — A. Yes, we always did that. Q. And you found a small catch inside, while they were largest aud most numerous outside ? — A. Yes. Q. In 1874, you were ashore ? — A. Yes. Q. In 1875, you were at home. lu 1870 where were you ? — A. I wa fishing. Q. Where?— A. In the bay. Q. Were you cod- fishing early in the spring ? — A. Yes. Q. How many months did you fish for cod ? — A. We generally calcoj lated to get ready about the 20th of March and return somewhere abouf June. Q. Then you would go off in July to the bay for mackerel ? — A. Yd I believe I went through Canseau last year, the 20th day of July. I aq pretty positive it was the 20th. Q. When did you return? — A. I came out of the bay somewhere' tween the 2d and 5th of Seiitember; at any^rate, I was home the (la| of our State election. Q. What day is the State election? — A. It Is, I think, the second Mo^ day in September. AWARD OF THE FISHERT COMMISSION. 2445 Q. You made two trips when in the bay. How was it that year ? — A. Vftry dull. Q. Did you try inshore and outshore both ? — A. Yes. Q. Now in 1877, this year, when did you go into the bay ?~A. I went to the bay in August. I went through Canseau. Q. Are you in here for harbor ? — A. Yes. Q. When did you corae in ? — A. Day before yesterday. Q. Are you homeward bound ?— A. Yes. Q. When did you leave the fishing- grounds, or corae through the Gut ? — A. We came through Canseau a week ago ; we came last Satur- day. Q. How much did you get all this time ? — A. 110 barrels. Q. And you tried inshore and outshore both I — A. Yes. Q. What parts of the bay have you been ! — A. We have been from what we call the West Shore to Port Hood. Q. You fished all around ? — A. Yes. Q. And that is the best you could do ? — A. Yes. Q. How much can your vessel carry ? — A. I fitted for 200. We had I a small vessel. Q. This won't pay?— A. No, I don't think it will. Q. Did you heave to in the Bend ? — A. Yes, I tried coming down. ^ I We hove to two or three times. Q. Did you find anything ? — A. Perhaps we might catch half a dozen [mackerel. Q. Not half a dozen barrels ? — A. No. Q. Those were not very large were they ? — A. Well, they were what [we term No. 2, small fry. Q. You have been codfishing how many seasons, do you think, in lall? — A. I have been codfishing five seasons in the same vessel. That |is what we term spring fishing, not the season right through. Q. Have you used salt bait or fresh f — A. Salt bait always, with the lexception of one trip that we caught mackerel and had them spoil on loar bands. Q. Did you find the salt bait successful ? — A. Yes. Q. Hand-lining?— A. Yes. Q. Have you a trawl also ? — A. No, sir. Q. You haven't found it necessary to go in for fresh bait ? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Weatherbe: Q. I don't know whether you mentioned the number of barrels you |caught in 1876 ? — A. I don't think I was asked it. Q. About how many ? — A. 120 barrels. Q. What vessel had you in 1876 ? — A. The Esperanza. Q. The same as now ? — A. Yes. Q. What is her tonnage ! — A. 43 tons, American tonnage. Q. She got pretty well for that tonnage ? — A. Well, we didn't call it with 12 meu. Q. Are 12 men a fair average number in a vessel that size ? — A. Yes, |ir. Q. You caught one-third inshore ? Is that the average ? — A. Yes, sir, «nerally. Q. It is, in your best judgment? — A. In my best judgment we gen- [trally caught one-third or somewhere about that. Q. That would be a fair average, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. , _ Q. Sometimes more and sometimes less, but from one-third to one-half ? mm Mr. Dana. He didn't say that. 2446 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. A .1(A) ,.;; |'«»H» , m>. "tPT- Mr. Dayies. He said from one-third to one-half were taken inshore, Q. You said you took two-thirds or one-half ofl'shore ? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you think that would be an average, one-third inshore ; that would be a fair average of the fishing of the mackerel-vessels inshore generally? — A. Generally speaking, of some vessels. There are some vessels that hang around inshore that are not fit to go out. Q. They would catch more insliore 1 — A. Yes, and poorer fish. Q. One third, you think, would be a fair average for largo vessels ?~ A. I am not going to speak of others besides my own. Q. One-third would be a fair average ? — A. What I took out of tlie bay, one tliird was caught by the three-mile limit; but we might have been a little further oil' or a little nearer in. It is a hard matter to judge. Q. Do yon think there is any considerable number of those poorer vessels that can't fish further out but hang inshore ? — A. There is quite a number of them that never come by East Point. They daren't go up in the bend. Q. They are American vessels ! — A. Some are, and some are not. Q. About what proportion would you consider to be a fair propor- tion of American vessels that hug the shore that way ? — A. I should say there was four-fifths of them American vessels, because there is not a great many English vessels that fish. Q. What proportion of the fleet, I mean, that come into the gulf, hug the shore that way and catch fish more inshore f — A. There might be one in twenty- five sail. Q. Do you think there would be that many ? — A. Yes ; there might be one in twenty-five. Q. Yon have seen them, I suppose, in the different years you have been in the gulf? — A. Yes; there are always two or three hanging round in harbors that dare not try it outside. There are plenty of those poor vessels. Q. You used a terra, eel-grass mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. Well, is that a term that is used on your shores at all ? — A. That is a term that all those fishermen use when they catch mackerel inshore, They are an interior quality, with black bellies. I have some of them on board now. Q. Is it a term in use on your own shores ? — A. Yes. Q. Then you consider that your mackerel caught inshore are inferior to those caught outside ? — A. Yes ; we think that is so anywhere. Q. Couldn't you catch the best mackerel on your shore in close?— A Well, there are times when the mackerel will run in there to chase the bait in. Q. Is it not the fact that the best mackerel are caught inside at Block Island ? — A. I never fished there. I don't think they catch any in Block Island, within five or six miles of it. Q. Are you acquainted with Eustico ? — A. I have been up and down there. Q. Are not they the very best quality of mackerel caught? — A. would not call them so. Q. That would be a matter of opinion ? — A. Well, I could not cal them so. I prefer fishing m a little deeper water. To make good, nice white fish I prefer them caught in deeper water. Q. What depth would you say ? — A. I want them over eight fathoms another ? Is it d A. I't's, it is my tbey do. But it Bay Clialeurs go Q. Do you mej and coMie down t Q. What time tbe month of Aug Q. You think tl island .'—A. No, Q. Do you tbin Q. That they ai Q. Might it not they are fatter ?- much. Q. Don't you th A. No, I don't thii aft«r the middle ol Q. At any rate deep water you thi Q. Then you mm best remain outside but what one fish ii Hsb. Q. Is it not a fac food, but not such 1 Q. That is your t Q. Then it is all better food inside ?- Q. And if it turnj :liauge your opinion Qackere! inshore th bod inshore, you W( lie matter f— A. W( now there was bett Q. Well, if the mi lay, are they not U Dackerel move abou Q. Then they mov lilt. I have caught ten any again for tl Q Was that the bout ?— A. I think ; Q. The first you en laces?— A. Yes. Q. Off the bend of mile of the island :i litTo that you will fir Q. Within half a n li»rt. I never calcu Q. What you meai 'oald get the best m; Q- Well, suppose y You can't get a very big depth in the Bay of St. Lawrence anywhen „,' ^aem eel-grass n - it they were p( until you sail to the northward. Q. Now, don't you think the same fish go out and in. Is it yon JJ^ mackerel, idea that certain schools keep in one place and certain schools ii ^'^^• ot. Itd( AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2447 Iwn ttnother ? Is it not your idea tliat the same mackerel go out and in ? — A. Ves, it is my opinion that the mackerel go out and in, and we know tliey do. But it is my positive idea that the best fish that go into the Ijay Chaleurs go through the strait and by Sydney. Q. Do you mean the Strait of Canso ? — A. No, the Strait of Belleisle and come down to Sydney. Q, What time? — A. Well, they are passing up and down there after tbe month of August until they ail go out. Q. You think these are not the same as you catch off the north of the island ?— A. No, I don't. Q. Do you think your opinion is general ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That they are a diflferent class of fish altogether! — A. Yea. Q. Might it not be just that you catch thewi later in the year when they are fatter ? — A. Well, after September comes in they don't fat up muub. Q. Don't you think it is because you get later and fatter mackerel ? — A. No, I don't think that is the reason. I don't think fish fatten any after the middle of September. Q. At any rate take the coast of the island itself. If you fish out in deep water you think you catch better fish ? — A. Y'es. Q. Then you must be under the impression that they divide and the best remain outside while the poor ones come insido I — A. I don't know but what one fish is as good as another, but it takes food to make the tisli. Q. Is it not a fact that they feed in close to the shore ? — A. There ia bod, but not such healthy food as outside. Q. That is your theory ? — A. Yes. Q. Then it is altogether a question of food. You think they get liettcT food inside ? — A. Yes. Q. And if it turned out that they got better food inshore yon would iliauge your opinion I You would say, then, that you would catch more ackeie! inshore than off? If you found that the mackerel got their food inshore, you would perhaps change your opinion with regard to he matter? — A. Well, if there was better fish inshore than off, I should tnow there was better food inshore. Q. Well, if the mackerel feed in eight fathoms, wherever that ia, to- lay, are they not to be found inshore tomorrow? Don't the same ackercl move about? — A. They move just which way the food moves. Q. Then they move about everywhere ? — A. Well, I could not say for iliat. 1 have caught mackerel for four or five days in one place and not eu any again for three weeks. Q Was that the same school, do you think, or were they moving ibout?— A. I think the fish was moving about. Q. Thb first you encountered would be away, and others would till their ilaces? — A. Yes. Q. Oft" the bend of the island will you not find eight fathoms within mile of the island in many places ? — A. Yes, there are many placea ero that you will find eight fathoms within a mile, I presume. Q. Within half a mile ? — A. Well, I never looked personally on the art. I never calculated to stop around there a great deal, anyhow. Q. What you mean is, that if you find them in eight fathoms you koald get the best mackerel there ? — A. No, I don't mean that. ]Q. Well, suppose you would catch them in eight fathoms, would you pll them eel-grass mackerel f — A. No, if they were nice fish I should lot. If they were poor fish, with black bellies, I wtmld call them ell- ass mackerel. It doesn't make any odds if thev/were caught in two kthoms. t / 2448 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 44. m Uf S^J Edward A. Googins, of Portland, Maine, called on behalf of tlie I Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana : Question. You are in what vessel now ? — Answer. The Esperanza. Q. You are in here accidentally f — A. Yes. Q. You came in here tor a harbor ? — A. Yes. Q. You are bound home ? — A. Yes. Q. You have got through your tishing ?— A. Yes. Q. Now, when did you begin to gO fishing? — A. When I was 14 years old. Q. You were born in the year ? — A. 1834. Q. That would make it 1848 when you went fishing ? — A. Yes. . Q. Where were you living then ? — A. At Trenton, Maine. Q. That is the customhouse district of Ellsworth ? — A. Yes. Q. At that time when you first went fishing where did you go !—L I went to Grand Manan. Q. How many years were you fishing off Grand Manan ? — A. Seveol years. Q. Until you were 21 ?— A. Yes. Q. Were you a skipper any of that time?— A. No; I was always a| hand. Q. Seven years you wpre a Trenton fisherman off Grand Manan?— A, Yes; Grand Manan and Nova Scotia. I Q. Now, where did y ju first go when the season began ? — A. In tbel spring f Q. Yes. — A. Around Nova Scotia. . Q. To what part? — A. Digby, Petit Passage, and Brier Island. Q. For what?— A. Codfish. Q. That was spring fishing? — A. Yes. Q. During these seven seasons in the spring, when you caught codofl that part of Nova Scotia, where did you catch them ? How far fron land? — A. The principal part 12 miles from land ; we judged 12, 14, oil 15. Q. Did you ever know of the distance being measured any time?— J Only once ; around the island. Q. What was the nearest to land that you ever fished ? — A. Foul miles. Now, how do yon know it was four miles? — A. Well, there was alitl tie dispute there. The natives of the island made a complaint to a niaiil of-war that the American fishermen fished within three miles of tlil land ; and the place they called within three miles was " Gravelly Bolf toro," on the southeast part of Grand Manan, right off from Gniuj 'lanan, at the southeast end. They measured, and found it was ton '^'iles from the nearest land to where the American fishermen flshej 1 v^ine of that is deep water. On that it is shoal. v^. 3r you were fishing on a shoal ? — A. Yes ; shoal water. • It turned out to be four miles ? — A. Yes. '■^. That is the nearest you ever went? — A. Yes; the nearest I ev^ fished in an American vessel. Q. And your codfish you caught twelve or fifteen miles off? — A. Tbg is the nearest we could judge. Q. While you were fishing for cod there what bait did you use?— ^ Herring. , - — ^.„ ^„ji n "N Jis to the Amei AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2449 Yes. they right I was married} U,oi Foul ev( iTh! Q. Did yon go in for it ? — A. We went in for it. Q. To wliat place ? — A. A nnniber of phices. q. Whatever place was nearest ? — A. Yes. Q. When did you generally go, on what day ? — A. Generally on Satur- day. ^Ve used to calculate to go in on Saturday, because we didn't fish ioii'Sundays. Q. >^one of your vessels fished on Sundays ? — A. None I know of. Q. J)o you know any American vessels that fished inside of three miles .' — A. No ; I never heard of any. Q. Well, you would meet them going in for bait ? — A. Y'^es. Q, Was it the custoiu to talk very freely with one another ? — A. Q, Do you think you got free and honest reports of where shed ? — A. Well, very near, for the very reason that we lived lose by one another. We could find out after a while. Q. Do you know of any, during those seven seasons, that fished nearer ban tiiree miles ? — A. No. Q. Was that cod fishery pretty successful ? — A. Sometimes it was, ml sometimes not. Q. Taken as a whole ? — A. Yes, it was, taken as a whole. Q. Did you move to Grand Manan to live .' — A. Yes. (I When did you move to Grand Manan ? The next year after you ere twenty-one ? — A. The next year after. Q. You had a house there and were married ? — A. No y wife belonged to the island. Q. You went to Grand Manan to live ? — A. Yes. Q. You engaged in fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. Boat-fishing?— A. Yes. Q. You changed from vessel-fishing to boat-fishing? — A. Yes. (}. Describe this boat-fishing. How big were the boats? — A. Twenty ft keel. Q. She had no forecastle ? — A. No ; only a small temporary cuddy we gged up ourselves. Q. I will go back to the time you were fishing in vessels. Why was yoiididn'i fish nearer than four miles 1 — A. One reason was that they iild not allow us, and another reason was that we could not do as lell. . 1q. If you had been allowed, if you had been left to your own prefer- ps, which would you do ? — A. We would prefer to fish outside, for the ason that the boats were in there and they could get more bait than got. Their own vessels that were there could not do so well inside I outside at the time I was there. [Q. What did you learn from the inhabitants, as well as from the ves- |8, as to the American vessels ? J^id they ever tell you that the aerican vessels were within three miles ? — A. No, I never heard only ioue complaint. That was before I went there to live, and while 1 was ere to live 1 never heard any complaints of the American vessels fish- inside. How long were you there ? — A. I was there nine years. During these nine years you had a boat or boats about 20 feet ia |gth?— A. Yes. Intended for a single day ? — A. Yes. I To come in nights ? — A. Yes. We took our dinners with us. Tell me, if you please, what fishing you did the different seasons of yeai in boats ? — A. Well, in the spring we used to commence iii |y generally, sometimes a little earlier. 154 F 2450 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. "'■■i B Q. What (lid you catch then ? — A. We would catch a very few cod- flsli, mostly hake. Q. Well, the hake is a rather inferior fish? — A. Yes. il. Were they plenty or few ? — A. They were scattering along in tLe spring. We didn't calculate to do a great deal anyway. Q. Now you have fished seven years outside for cod and nine yearj| in boats, I suppose mostly inside ? — A. Yes, mostly inside. Q. You can therefore compare them. Now whicli furnished the great est number and the best fish ? — A. Outside. Q. There is no question about it ? — A. No question about that. Q. The hake is an inferior fish for eating. What does it furnish ?-.| A. It furnishes most oil of anything. Q. What is next? After a few scattered cod and hake principally,, what is next? — A. The next is the hake in July and August to Sep. tember. We catch these by night. Q. Night fishing. What is next? — A. Generally herring fishing im the fall. Q. From October to when ? — A. To Christmas or New Year. Q. That finishes the boat fishing for the season ? — A. No. Tlieii| after the herring strikes in one place, it comes in another, and we gei enough for bait. In winter we get small codfish. They are small, bui they will do for pickling. Q. And you set nets in the winter ? — A. Y'es. (i. You set them from the Grand Manan ? — A. Yes. Q. Is it in the nets you catch small cod? — A. No; with line. (i. Now, when the codfish are very abundant and better o£l'shore, wb; did you take them inshore with boats? — A. Because I could be homl every night to see my family. I had a house on the island, and I Lai a little place. I could take cure of that and be at home. I could do m work and fish too. That is why I preferred boat fishing to vessel flsl ing. I would not have to be gone all the time. Q. Now, that year, 18(55, you spoke of nine seasons when you wei boat fishing — what did you then do? — A. I moved across into Maine Q. Near Eastport? — A. Yes. Q. What is the name of the town ? — A. Trescot, Washington Count; Q. How many years did you live at Trescot ? — A. I lived there froi 1805 to the 28th of this last July. Q. All that time working on shore? — A. Yes; I had nothing to with fishing. This year 1 started fishing again. Q. This vessel, the Esperauza, belongs to Kocklaud ? — A. Yes. Q. Ti'ou were to the gulf? — A. Yes. Q. How many were you fitted out for ? — A. I understood, when Ilel we fitted for 240 barrels. Q. How much have you got in all ? — A. 110 barrels. Q. That is in sea-barrels ? — A. Yes. Q. That is a very unfavorable result ? — A. "Well, I should think so. am not used to mackerel-fishing. Q. You said the 28th July you went; did you go through Cause? A. Yes. Q. Do you recollect the date ? — A. No. Q. How many days had you been out when you went through ? We were some time getting ready from the time I went aboard, were ten days, I think, going down. Q. You can't recollect the date of your going through? — A. No. Q. You got in here night before last for harbor? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been pretty well around the gulf? — A. Well, I ne was there before around, or half, Q. Did you flsl ask me any quest passniyjudgmen Q. About the d Q. This is your Q. It will prob lon't think 1 mad By Mr. Fos Q. Your last km By Mr. Dav Q. Off what sho now the shores ?- Q. You heard fi laid they were fish lalled North Cape, Q. East Point, T as there. We cai Q. Up and down liere. Q- You stopped i Q- The fleet was lorth Cape f— A. Y Q. Many of them Ifteeu or sixteen sai foint I should thiul, Q. I suppose you 0. y. Did you go dov Q. Did you catch i Q. What other pla y. Well, that is pa (1 catch were caugh llliowfarolf?_A. : Q. You could seeti Q. You saw thecov n I ever saw one w ittle. y- I>id you go ash lereouce; that is th. '/• U IS a pretty si IV one. IQ- Speaking serious to the distance you Q' The captain of t rels, not 240._A. \ iiuderstood. What was the siz She would not iik w have you got ?— '■ Just one question ' and fished for sev AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2451 wei lue. uut; t'roi llefl kas there before. I could not tell yon whether I have been pretty near laround, or half, or a quarter of the way. Q. Did you fish inshore as well as outside? — A. Well, it is useless to |ask me any questions about that. As the land is low there I would not pass my judgment anything about this trip at all. Q. About the distance ? — A. No. Q. This is your first experience of the bay mackerel-fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. It will probably be the last ? — A. I think very likely it will. I don't think I made enough to .ntice me to go again. By Mr. Foster: Q. Your last knowledge of Grand Manan was the year 18G5 ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Davies : Q. Off what shores did you fish this year in the Esperanza ? Did you iuow the shores ? — A. I didn't know the shores; I was a stranger there. Q. You heard from those on board, though, what place? — A. They ^aid thoy were fishing off the west shore, and there was one place they failed Xorth Cape, Prince Edward Island. Q. East Point, Prince Edward Island, did you hear that? — A. Yes; I ras there. We came down and up by it. Q. Up and down the shore of the island? — A. We did not stop any- lb ere. Q. You stopped at both ends? — A. Yes; wc fished there. (J. The fleet was fishing, I understand, chiefly about East Point and |iorthCapel — A. Y'es. Q. Many of them ? — A. I should judge around Xorth Cape there were [fteeu or sixteen sail, perhaps twenty. I did not count them. At East foiiit I should think something like fifty sail when we were there. Q. I suppose you didn't make any inquiries what they caught ? — A. 10. Q. Did you go down the Cape Breton shore ? — A. Only to Port Hood. Q. Did you catch any there ? — A. I think fifteen barrels, off' shore. |Q. What other place? — A. I have mentioned all, except Georgetown. iQ. Well, that is part of Prince Edward Island. Whatever fish you |d catch were caught in one or other of those places ? You could not how far off? — A. No ; you need not ask me any questions about that. |Q. You could see the land ? — A. Y'es. Q. You saw the cows walking on it ? — A. I don't think — I don't know Lt I ever saw one walking there; I don't know that they keep any Ittle. Q. Did you go ashore? — A. Once, in Georgetown. I saw a hoise A. I don't know, I only Ine lere once; that is the only kind of cattle I saw. Iq. It is a pretty good country for horses ?- |w oue. IQ, Speaking seriously, do you mean to say you can't give an opinion Ito the distance you were from the shore off" East Poiut ? — A. I could |Q. The captain of the Esperanza said they were fitted out for 200 jrels, not 240. — A. Well, I might have made a mistake; I might have fiiuderstood. What was the size of the vessel ? — A. 43 or 44 tons. She would not like to carry more than 200 barrels. How many of few have you got I — A. Ten men. I Just one question or two now about Grand Manan. You went in ^, and fished for seven years on board American vessels ? — A. Yes. 2452 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ik'd&m fWi Q. You (lidu't fish there in American vessels after the Reciprocity! Treaty came in ? It was before tbat that the complaint was made ?— i, 1 think it was. I was nothing but a boy at the time. Q. Yon paid very little attention to where you were fishing? — A. 1| know we were uot fishing inside of that line, because there was notliin^j there to catch. Q. There are plenty of flsh to be caught within ? — A. No. Q. The boattishing when you left there was chiefly inside 1 Am I not) correct in saying that the boats catch most of their fish inside f — A. YesJ Sometimes they go out, but very seldom. Q. I want to just understand correctly. Nearly all the fish caiig|jt| by the boats are caught inside ? — A. Yes. Q. Then the fish are there to bo caught ? — A. I'^es. Q. Very well ; and did you as a boy, fishing, pay particular atteiitioni to whether you were in or out? — A. We knew we were out, because] know all the grounds we were on. We fished on them j^ear after year.l Q. You were asked why you didn't go in and said you were prohibited;! you said because the people didn't allow you. — A. I said because a man I of-war didn't allow us. Mr. Dana. He gave two reasons. Mr. Davies. I should say one would be quite sufficient. Mr. Dana. He coqld dodge a mauof-war if it was worth while. By Mr. Davies : Q. Would you dodge a man-of-war to get inside? — A. I don't ktio»| what I might do. I never had the chance to try. Q. The temptation was not thrown in your way. Now, I want to asl you, do you know anything about the fishing carried on there in wintti by American vessels ? — A. I do not. Q. Then, for aught you know, they may flsh inside altogether in vU ter ?— A. They do not. Q. Did I understand you correctly that you understood nothing aboni it ? You said you knew nothing about the fishing in there in winter. A. No, nor summer either. Q. 1 asked if you had ever fished aboard an American vessel winter about Grand Manan. — A. No ; never. Q. At any time of your life ? — A. No. Q. Did you ever see any fishing there in winter ? — A. No. Q. So you absolutely know nothing of it at all? — A. No; I absolutelj know Q. Did I understand that you absolutely knew nothing of it at all! A. 1 don't understand your question. I wish you would put it plaiiiei Q. I understand that you never fished on board a vessel in the wiuti about Grand Manan ? — A. I have said. Q. And also that you never saw an American vessel fishing in winti anywhere about the island ? — A. Well, I could not go over the island at once. 1 never heard about it. Q. Then am I correct in saying you know nothing about it ?— A, know nothing about it further than that. Q. I mean within or outside of three miles? — A. I never saw ai American vessel around there in the winter that I can recollect. Q. Then I am correct in saying you know nothing about whether t do or not ? — A. I never saw them. How can I tell ? Q. Do you know Walter B. McLaughlin ? — A. I have seen him. Q. How many years is it since you left Grand Manan altogether* Twelve years, I think, or thirteen. I left in 1805. By Mr. Dan Q. While you wt ^0. Isaac Burgess, foverumeut of the By Mr. Foste Question. You ar uptain Dickie, and IQ. When did you f»ee ?--A. In 1868. y- You must hav Id. Q- Do you rememl .aptain Burgess. • Jf«^^ many ban y. Where was she p. How long was j ^igiborhood of sev* radley. Q- Any within thr( p Take the next ti unenryCoombes. U VVhere from ?— , !' 5^"^ many barrt KNOW where were North Cape, East , • Well, If any of t e at what place an •m three miles of tl :• VV hat was tlie ne AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2453 Q. Then, since you have left Grand Manan you know nothing, I sup- [pose, of the number of vessels ? — A. No ; 1 have never seen the island, I that I recollect, since, any more than at a distance. Q. As to the period during the last twelve years, you don't profess to [gay anything about it at all 1 — A. No. "q. When you were there, after the end of the seven years, you fished [in boats yourself f — A. Yes. Q. What kind of a man is McLaughlin; a respectable man ? — A. He is IcoiKsidered so. Q. Is it possible that the fishing may have changed since you were there f I will read Mr. McLaughlin's statement with reference to the Irand Manan flsherj'. Ue was asked : " Now, about how many Ameri- can vessels fish on the coast during the season?" He answers: "It rould be hard to tell that. It has never been my duty to count them." le was asked : " They come iu large numbers and they greatly out- luiuber ours ? " He answers : " Yes j our people at Grand Manan fish but little in vessels." He is asked again : " Do these vessels come in fish- ing within three miles?" And he answers: "At a certain time of the j^ear. Iu winter it is entirely within. The fall and winter fishing is eiitircly within." Now that may be the case for the last twelve years ; toil don't profess to know? — A. I don't profess to know anything about (bat. By Mr. Dana : kiiof| Q' While you were there you saw uo American vessels Ashing there?— . No. to asia No. 45. viuteiL Isaac Burgess, of Belfast, Me., fisherman, called on behalf of the n winB'^vernment of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : I Question. You are one of the sharesmeu on board the Eliza Poor, laptain Dickie, and are twenty-four years old ? — Answer. Yes. ]q. When did you begin fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Law- bel il bUitell rintj iiud -A. Iwai tl knee ?— A. In 1868. Iq. You must have been a little fellow then? — A. Yes; fifteen years 1(1. Q. Do you remember the name of the schooner ? — A. The Oak Grove, p|)tain Burgess. Q. How many barrels did you take ?— A. 210 barrels. Q. Where was she from ? — A. Belfast. Q. How long was she taking them? — A. She was somewhere in the jighborhood of seven or eight weeks. They were taken oft" shore on lailley. Q. Any within three miles ? — A. No. |Q. Take the next time. — A. 18(J1). I was in the James Jewett, Cap- k Henry Coombes. IQ. Where from ?— A. Belfast. How many barrels of mackerel did she take ? — A. 273. Now where were these taken ? — A. On the West Shore, Escumi- North Cape, East Point, and some at Magdaleus. . Well, if any of those were taken within three miles of the shore, [teat what place and how many? — A. I don't think we caught any fliin three miles of the shore. What was the next year ?— A. 1872. 1 2454 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. AV, S>tt-' i'j&it m* tliiiik. —A. Two trips. Q. Ill 1874 you (}. You are sure Q. You left her. Ie(t her at I'ortln Q. Who was tli( i}. Uiu\ you any that we (lid. I ciii French. Q. Any from tlu (}. None at all ?- i]. Jn some of th |tlio provinces f — A Q. But this year ij. Not much aci: (i. How many to ^111 pretty sure. Q. The previous at was 1868. (}. In 18C9 ?_A. {}. The next one Q. What vessel ? — A. The Mary Louise, Oscar Fitch, captain, I'loin Gloucester. Q. What was her size ? — A. 70 tons, I Q. Did you make more than one trip f- Q. When did you go into the gulf? — A. We came in the first trip, think, in June. Q. What did you do with that tlrst trip ? — A. Wo took them bacli i Gloucester. Q. How long were yon gonci the first trip ? — A. About a month. l^. How many barrels did you get ? — A. 273 barrels the first trij) Q. Where did you take them ?— A. We took them around the islnnil, North Cape, and Magdalen Islands. (I. How many at the Magdalens? — A. We got half our trip there. ii. How many off the island? — A. Probably 40 or 50 barrels. Q. When fishing off the island, how near shore did you fish ?— A don't think we fished less than four miles, four or five. Q. Where else did you catch any part of your trip ? — A. Some betwiei Port Hood and East Point. Q. Were those, any of them, within three miles? — A. No. Q. Did you get any within three miles that trip f — A. A few at a plaeB called Kustico one day within three miles. That is all during that trip J'ary Louise. Q. Well, how did you happen to be at Rustico? — A. We saw soiii Q. Had you Spa small boats in fishing, springing up, and we went in there and trie iiiiericans. them. It came on to blow that night and we had to go out. It wasi Q. VVhat was the Bend, and we had to get off" shore. Q. How many barrels did you get ? — A. 80 barrels that day, iiea Bustico. Q. Take the next year ?— A. That was 1874. I was in the Alic Salem, Captain El bridge Love, of Booth Bay. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you take ? — A. 173 barrels. Q. How long were you getting them ? — A. Somewhere in the nei;; borhood of nine weeks. Q. When did you begin ? — A. We came away from home about t Ist of August. We were a week, I believe, getting down. Q. Where were those taken ? — A. They were taken at the Magdaleni some around East Point, and some around Port Hood. The most of t trip at the Magdalen Islands. Q. Now the Alice, Salem, is put down that year as haviJig come in the 9th August one trip, and having gone Lome the loth of Octob Are those dates about right ? Did you begin about August and e about the loth October ? — A. I think we did. Q. But she is said to have taken 275 barrels ? — A. 173 barrels was we got aboard when I was aboard. Q. Who was the fish merchant to whom she packed out? — A. Cliarli A. Dyer. Q. May you be mistaken 100 barrels ? — A. No ; I am not. Q. Most of those you say were taken at Mag provinces I — A. No; mostly from the State of Maine — from Belfast. Q. But this year, 1M74, you had foreigners ? — A. Yes ; we had mostly. (J. Not much accustomed to fishing ? — A. Poor tlsiiermen generally. il How many tons was she ? — A. I think from 71 to 7G tons ; 71, I 111 pretty sure. Q. The previous vessel, what was her name .' — A. The Oak Clrovo; hat was 1868. (}. In 1809 f — A. I was iu the James Jewett. (}. The next one, what was the name? — A. That was in 1872 — the iliiry Louise. Q. Had you Spaniards and Tortnguese that trii) ? — A. No: mostly iiiericans. Q. What was her tonnage? — A. I could not say exactly what the oiiiiage was. I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 or 7.'» tons. Q. You caught your mackerel four miles ott' ? — A. Yes. Q. What proportion? — A. Half of them. 1 could not tell. Q. I suppose that would bo the distance you wouhl select as being ;ood fishing ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That would be the best fishing you have ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I suppose most of the fishermen fished that distance? — A. Yes; ley generally fished off there, near four or five miles. Q. it is considered about the best fishing, four or five miles ? — A. m as Imr es ; It is. (^ I sui)po80 in some places the fish would go in three and a half )t' tl^iles ? — A. Yes, some fish do. Q. You wouH not mind coming in three and a half miles if you were inoHour miles out. I suppose sometimes they would manage to get in obe liree miles ? — A. No vessels I have ever been in. [^lei Q- i iim not speaking of the vessels, but the fish — is there anything Dstop them at four miles ? — A. No. Q. There is no obstruction of any kind. Just as good water ? — A. es; only a little shallower. Q. Just as good feed ? — A. Y'es. Q. Perhaps better feed ? — A. Well, most generally the gales drive bem off, but they come back again. Q. I suppose when the wind is a little off shore the btst feed would inside, closer in ? — A. Yes. Q. Closer inside than four miles ? — A. I should say so. (|, They would then go iu pretty close ? — A. Yes. Q. You would then go in there and drift off? — A. Yes. Q. And the fleet would do that. We have evidence of that. The [eet would run in as close as they could get and then drift off ? — A. Yes ; at was the way they fished. Q. As close as they could get in ? — A. Not within four miles. Q. I was referring to a little closer. I wanted to comiC in a little frd m 2456 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■4m ii^ closer if I could. I was throwing a little bait? — A. Well, probably there might have been some fellows go in handier. Q. Some would go in nearer ? — A. Yes; some of the captains went in. Q. Let us make a compromise and say three miles and a half. You don't object to that do you ? (No answer.) No. 40. • Charles II. Brier, of Belfast, Me., called on behalf of the Govern- ment of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot : Question. You are a Belfast man ? — Answer. Y'es. Q. When did you get here ? — A. Night before last. Q. You came in the Eliza Poor ?— A. Yes. Q. What brought her in ?— A. The storm. Q. How old are you ? — A. Twenty-flve. Q. How long have you been fishing ? — A. Fifteen years. Q. When did you start ?— A. When I was ten years old. Q. What sort of fishing have you been doing i — A. Mackerel-fishiug. Q. Where ? — A. Four years in the bay and the rest on our coast. Q. What four years in the bay ?— A. '07, '08, '70, and '77. Q. Well, the first year you weut in what vessel '? — A. The Atlantic. '^ii. Where from ?— A. Belfast. Q. Where did you go to fish ? — A. To the bay. Q. Whereabouts in the bay ? — A. From East Point to North Cape. Q. I>id you make one or two trips ? — A. One. Q. How long was it i — A. Two or three months. Q. Well, don't you recollect more particularly ? Do you mean two or three ? — A. About three. Q. What did you catch ? — A. We caught mackerel. Q. What was the result of your fishing i — A. 200 barrels. Q. Now, what proportion of these did jou take within three miles ?— A. Of the 200 barrels we took 100 within three miles. Q. Then in 1868, what vessel were you in ? — A, The Eippling Wave. Q. Where were you that year i? — A. From North Cape to East Point and Escuminac. Q. How many trips ? — A. One. Q. What tonnage was she ? — A. Over 100 tons. Q. How long did your trip last ?— A. Three months. Q. What did you take ? — A. 250 barrels. Q. Now, with regard to those 250 barrels, what proportion of tiiem were taken within three miles ? — A. They were taken oft' shore mostly. Q. Where were you in 1870 ? — A. lu the Eliza Poor. Q. Where were you that year ?— A. We went around the island to Escuminac, the West Shore. Q. Was that one or two trips ? — A. One trip. Q. What did you take that year ?— A. About 200 barrels. We wore there .about three months. Q. Now what proportion of that catch wns taken within three miles? — A. About one half. Q. Then in 1877 what vessel were you in ?— A. The Eliza Poor. Q. What did you do that year?— A. We got 110 barrels. Q. That is the same voyage you are coming in now? — A. Yes. Q. When did you go ?— A. The 9th August. Q. When did you come out?— A. About a week ago; we came out last Sunday. Q. Yon goi three miles ?- ^>. Then ot Q. The res! on the coast c A. It is bettc] Q. I am tall Q- Is the fis think. Q. In the fis short trips ?— , Q- Do you r( 1,000. Q. In what t Q. Wei], yon the gulf and fis A. I should rati Q. Do you kr —A. I have see ^orth Cape and Q. flow far d: luree miles. ^y Mr. D( , Q- Since flshin l)ay, why do you fo go m the bay. . Q; When it is I lu the gulf you gi Q. That is qui( tlie coast. Pieasf atfishing? —A. I have seen a good deal of it this year ; we met the boats oB;" the North Cape and East Point. Q. How far did they come oft? — A. A mile and a half to two and tbree miles. By Mr. Doutre : Q. Since fishing on the American coast is so much better than in the bay, why do you go in the bay ? — A. Well, it failed this year; we had to go in the bay. Q. When it is better at home you remain there, and when it is better iu the gulf you go there?— A. Y'es. Q. That is quite sensible. You say it is not so expensive fishing on the coast. Please explain why. — A. Well, it does not cost so much. 1 tain ? — A. George Moore. When you were there this year how many barrels did you take ? — A. 120. (J. Where were you fishing ? — A. Around the west shore of Prince Edward Island, and Escuminac, some around East Point. Q. Every year there are more or less got there ? — A. Yes. Q. The first year, '67, you were not there at all? — A. Noj at the Mag- dalens. Q. And since that you have been generally fishing those grounds ? — A. Yes. The second year we fished mostly at the Magdalens. Q. The last year you have been fishing over this ground ? — A. Yes. I haven't been at the Magdalens this year at all. Q. When ; '76 ? — A. No ; I was not there last year. Q. Why didn't you go there last year and this year ? — A. I don't know why. Q. The fleet was fishing around East Point and Port Hood ? — A. We bad news from the Magdalens that they were not doing anything there,. I suppose. We generally know what is going on all round the bay. Q. Y^ou got a very small catch last year? — A. Yes. Q. That was not the average ? — A. Yes, I think it was. 2460 AWAPD OF THE FISHERY COMMieSION. ^^m Q. What time did you go in ? — A. We weut in, I think, some time about the 15th of August. Q. You missed the best catches of the year ? — A. We were cod-flshiiig \rhen the best mackereiing was going on. All the vessels did poorly anyway. Only a few vessels got a trip. Q. In '09 you were off the island too ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you catch many off the island shore ? — A. No. We got most of our trip off the Magdaleus. Q. How far off the island did the boats fish ? — A. Four or five miles, Q. The last witness said half a mile to a mile and a half or two miles! — A. They fished all distances. Q. Why did you say four miles, then ?* Have you seen them over a mile or two or three miles ? — A. Yes. Q. Is not that generally the distance they fish ? — A. I could not say. Q. Why ; haven't you been sufficiently long ? — A. I have seen them fishing inside and outside of three miles. Q. Haven't you been there sufficiently long this season and last season to see ? — A. I should say the boats we saw this year were fishing three miles oft". Q. But you got your fish inside ? — A. Some of them. Q. The boats were outside of you ? — A. Sometimes they were. Q. How far would you be off when the boats would be outside of you? — A. Perhaps a mile. Q. Then they might be outside of jou and still be well within three miles? — A. Yes. Q. You give it as your evidence that most of the time the boats were four miles from land ; and when you say that you caught none within three miles, you mean that you caught them at the same distance as the boats ? — A. Some of them fished four miles off and some further. Q. The bulk I mean ; do you mean that '? — A. Y^es ; they fished four or five miles off. Q. Do you know Charles H. Brien, who was examined here ? — A. Y'es. Q. He stated that the boats fished from half a mile to a mile or two. Did he tell the truth or not ? — A. I have seen them as near as that. Q. You don't agree with him ? — A. Yes, I do. No. 48. Lawrence Londrigan, of St. Mary's Bay, Newfoundland, fisher- man, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworu and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. Y'^ou were born in Newfoundland ? — Answer. Yes. (^. How long have you been away from there ? — A. Three years this coming fall. Q. How old are you ? — A. Twenty eight or twenty-nine years last fall. Q. What did you do the first year you left Newfonndland ? — A. The first year I was in America. I trawled on the coast of Maine. Q. What schooner ?— A. Liberator. Q. From what port did she sail ?— A. Westport, Me. Q. You went trawling for what ? — A. Codfish and hake principally. Q. Whereabouts did you trawl ? — A. Off the coast of Maine and along Seal Island Bay. Q. You made short trips? — A. Y'^es. Q- Were you getting fish to salt ? — A. To sell green. Q. Q. rner. Q. In what v Q. On the Ui Q. What wer frozen herring 1 Q. What is tl Q. Where die Q. Who was (i. When did Q. How long round Grand Mi Q. Wereothei Q. How many Ej)iscatawa. Q. How many Q. Where did some we bought of the vessel. Q. What did 2 hundred ; for abc Q. Did you cat inpr any. Q. You purcha Q. This sum me Q. Have you ai not the slightest. By Mr. Da Q. The fish you ueck and partly o Q- Those you Ix Q. And froze tl vessel f—A. Yes. Richard Hopk Government of th( By Mr. Tres Question. How < Q. Where do yo Q. Were you bo Q. How far is tl Q. How many y Q. What veffsel Q. When did sh Q. Who is capta . Q. She came fn About five weeks. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2 4 61 Q. To be salted f — A. We salted tbera ourselves. Q. What bait did .you use ? — A. The first summer we used clams and afterwards pogies and menhaden. Q. Salted i — A. The clams were salted, but the pogies were kept in ice. Not sliver? — A. We iced them ourselves. What were you doing last year ? — A. I was mackereling last sum- Q mer. Q In what vessel ? — A. Lizzie Poore. On the United States coast 1 — Yes. What were you doing last winter ? — A. I left to go in a vessel for frozen herring last December. Q. What is the name of the vessel ? — A. J. W. Roberts. Q. Where did she hail from ?-s-A. Rockport, Me. Q. Who was her captain ? — A. P. Conley. Q. When did she start from Rockport ? — A. 2Gth December. Q. How long were you gone ? — A. We were at Beaver Harbor and round Grand Manan about two weeks. Q. Were other vessels there ? — A. Yes. Q. How many ? — A. Electric Flash, Madawaska Maid, ]\[ary Turner, Episcatawa. Q. How many frozen herring did you get ? — A. 300,000. Q. Where did you obtain them ? — A. Some were bought frozeu and some Ave bought green and took ashore, and some we froze on the deck of the vessel. Q. What did you pay for them ? — A. For most of tbem flfty cents a hundred; for about 25,000, forty five cents a hundred. Q. Did you catch any yourselves ? — A. No, we had no means of catch- ins any- Q. You purchased them for money ? — A. Yes, for money. Q. This summer you have been iu the Lizzie Poore ? — A. Y'^es. Q. Have you any idea what your share is going to be ? — A. No, I have not the slightest. By Mr. Davies : Q. The fish you bought down at Grand Manan were frozen partly on deck and partly on shore ? — A. Yes, and some were bought frozen. Q. Those you bought in a green state you landed?— A. Some of them. Q. And froze them there yourselves, and then transferred them to the vessel ? — A. Yes. No. 49. Richard Hopkins, of Belfast, Me., fisherman, called on behalf of the Goverumeut of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot : (Question. How old are you ? — Answer. Sixty-three years. Q. Where do you live ? — A. At Belfast. Q. Were you born there ? — A. No, at Vinehaven. Q. How far is that from Belfast ? — A. Thirty-five miles. Q. How many years have yon been fishing? — A. Forty years. Q. What vessel are you now in ? — A. Esperanza. Q. When did she come here? — A. On Wednesday, I think. Q. Who is captain of the vessel ? — A. Captain Smalley. Q. She came from the gulf. How long have you been theie ?— A. About five weeks. 2462 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. mm i Q. What sort of a catca have you had ? — A. A small catch. Q. IJow raauy barrels ? — A. One hundred and ten barrels. Ten hands. (J. What is the tonnage of the vessel ? — A. Forty-four tons. Q. Where did you flsh during that trip ! — A. We Ashed mostly up to the north part of Prince Edward Island. Q. When you say you tished to the north part of the island, did you ot in all eases. It 1 Q- I have heard i| Generally disappear, [s a common thing. Q. You saw madv-e V'. Ihey were not i lAvvmackerelandcaii 1 (• i^'> here were t >;• ^'ereauyoft JJ. Were you in t ^- In what school If ^ow many bai , y. Where were th fJiargaree, and Cape y- If you took ai AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMIoSION. 2469 Q. They were better nbout 1800? — A. Yei: somewhcro about then. Q. Aiul from tb»t down to 1805 or 1870 f— A. Yes; anl siuce that tinw not as good. Q, Tbose are the years they were better ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Trescot : Q. Suppose a fleet of 200 or 250 vessels were fishing offshore, what space would be covered f — A. Sometimes when they are snugly together, tbey tlon't cover a very large body of water ; and you can scatter theiu over a larcre surface. It depends on how snugly they are together. B^ . Mr. Kellogg : Q. The nrst year you went into the bay cod-fishing, had you hoard of inaciierel-fishing there f — A. No. There was hardly a vessel from the States in the bay then. Q. Had you heard of mackerel fishing there ; had it begun then? — A. No ; there was not much caught at that time. By Mr. Foster : Q. What year were you first in the bay for mackerel ? — A. In 1835. lu 1827 there was nothing doing in mackerel-fishing. No. 50. George O. Clark, of Belfast, Me., fisherman, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question ou are one of the sharesmen of the Lizzie Foore ? — Answer. Yes. Q. How ... y years before that had you been in the gulf fishing ? — A. Seven or eight years. Q. What was the last year before this summer you were there? — A. 1870. Q. In what schooner ? — A. Banner, of Belfast, Captain McFarlane. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you catch?— A. About 100 or 105. Q. And where were they taken ? — A. Mostly round North Cape and the Bend of Prince Edwjird Island. Q. What portion, if any, was taken within three miles of the shore ? — A. 15 or 20 barrels. Q. Where were those taken ? — A. They were not taken a great way inside of three miles; about three miles ott'Kildare, this side of North Cape. Q. Were you in the bay in 18G9 ?— A. No. Q. In 1868 ?— A. Yes. Q. In what schooner? — A. Charles E. Moody, Fnmkford, Capt. Thos. I Clark. Q. How many barrels did she take? — A. About 200 barrels. Q. Where were they taken ? — A. Oft" Bouaventure, broad oli'. (). Were any of them taken within three miles of the shore ? — A. No. Q. Were you in the bay in 1867 ?— A. Yes. Q. In what schooner ? — A. Mary Lowe, of Gloucester, Captain Adams. Q. How many barrels did you take?— A. About 250, 1 think. Q. Where were those taken ? — A. At Magdalen Islands, East Point, [Margaree, and Cape North. Q. If you took any of them inshore, state where you took them and 2470 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. fa ru Q. Q. Q. Q. Q. liovr many ? — A. We got about 50 barrels at East Point, from 3 to S miles oat : about the same number at the Magdalen Islands. From East Point to Port Hood we got a few going across, and from there down to Cape North wo got the rest of the catch, about 150 barrels. il. Do you say you were at Margaree f — A. Yes. Q. How near theshore did you take mackerel there I — A. About three miles off. Q. Three miles from the mainh^nd or the island?— A. From the island. Q. Were you in the bay in 18G6? — A. Yes. Q. In what schooner? — Atlantic, of IJodford, Captain Coombs. How many barrels did you catch ? — A. About 00 barrels. Where did you get them ? — A. At the Magdalen Islands. How long were you in the bay ? — A. About six weeks. What was your earliest trip to the bay ? — A. In 1858. How many times between 1858 and 1800 were you in the buy ?— A. Three times. Q. When were you next there before 1800 ?— A. In 1800. Q. In what schooner ? — A. Abegail, ("iiptain Dunbar. Wo were fish- ing for both cod and mnckerel. Q. On the same trip ? — A. Yes. Q. How long were yo»; in the gulf that year ? — A. About three months. Q. Do you remember what you took ? — A. 20 quintals of cod and 4 or 5 barrels of mackerel. We were not really catching mackerel. We fitted out for codfish. Q. What bait had you? — A. We caught mackerel for bait. Q. Where did you fish for cod ? — A. Awaj' up Madeleine Kiver. Q. AVere you in the bay in 1859 ? — A. Yes ; In President, of Belfast, Capt. Conway. Q. Were you fishing for mackerel ? — A. For codfish and mackerel. Q. How much mackerel and how much codfish did you take? — A. I guess about 150 quintals of codfish and about 150 barrels of mackerel. Q. Where did you take the mackerel ? — A. Off Bonaventure. Q. Within what distance of the shore ? — A. Just in, right off the hills. Q. In 1858 what schooner were you in? — A. Columbia, of Belfast, Capt. McFarlane. Q. Fishing for mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What did you get? — A. I believe we got about 200 barrels. Q. How old were you then ? — A. 12 years. Q. Do you remember what was your fishing ground ? — A. Off North Cape and the Bend of Prince Edward Island. Q. How near the shore at the bend of the island ? — A. I should think about 3 or 4 miles out. ByMr. Davies: Q. Did you ever fish in Bay Chaleurs ? — A. We have been into Ship- pegan for a harbor. Q. You never fished up in the bay ? — A. Not up in there. Q. Then you know nothing about the fishing there ? — A. No. Q. Have you ever heard of the fleet going there to fish ? — A. I believe they have been there. Q. Have you ever fished at Seven Islands ? — A. No, I don't know j where they are. Q. Nor up St. Lawrence River ' — A. I have been away up there fish- ing. Q. Fishing q. How fai Wo caught tJi '> Mow far il When y( yoiioff flromtl (,>. You told anything abou ree Island. Q. Then yoii 3Iargaree ?— A Q. ('ould yoi not toll exactly i}.. You had Q. You n«ay boon two miles Q' I suppose aro off shore. (f. VVhen yo boon two or fou Q. You have Q. And iishei and on ?— A. Y< how the weatbei Q- If the fish pose wo would il Q. At what d I From one mile t( Q- I 8upi)ose } we hardly ever w Q. You never round at Rustico, Q. At what Pi Georgetown, up cuinpeque, Kllda Q- All round t Q. Where were Jlostly over at th Q- Had you a I Q. You did not ueorge. Q. That trip ap The Conference Examination of enimeiit of tho Dn J^y Mr Fost( Question. When of you as to the fls Jlouut Desert. 0\ the n:ackerel fisher bomewhere in the n J could not say for AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2471' Q, Fishing for mackerel? — A. For cod and mackerel. (^. Ilow far from the shore did jou catch the mackerel there? — A. Wo caught them inshore. We caught them for bait. <) How far out? — A. One mile. {}. When you wore down at Cape Breton and Margsiree, liow far were yon off from the island ? — A. From 4 to 10 miles. Q. You told Mr. Foster from three to ten ? — A. lie did not ask mo anything about Capo Breton. He asked me tlie distance from Marga- reo Ishvnd. Q. Tlien you were four miles from Capo Breton, and three miles from Margaree?— A. Yes. Q. Could you tell the distance exactly or accurately ? — A. No, I could uot toll exactly. (}, You had no reason for giving any special attention to it? — A. No. Q. You may have been twomilesor four miles out? — A. 1 might have boon two miles and I might have been five. Q. I suppose special attention is not given to the exact distance you aro offshore. You don't pretend to measure? — A. No. If. When you spoke of off" shore and inshore generally, it may have boon two or four miles, you cannot tell? — A. Y'es. Q. You have been round Prince Edward Island ? — A. Yea. Q, And fished in the same way there, from two to five miles out, off and on ? — A. Yea, from three to five miles and eight miles, according to how the weather was. Q. If the fish had been plentiful would you have gone in? — A. I sup- pose we would if fish had been plentiful. Q. At what distance out do the boats fish — two or three miles ? — A. From one mile to three or four miles. Q. I suppose you would bo often fishing in among the boats? — A. No, we hardly ever went in among the boats. Q. You never fished much about Kustico ? — A. No, we never fished round at Rustico. Q. At what parts of the island did you fish! — A. Off East Point, Georgetown, up at the Two Chapels, off New London, Malpeque, Cas- cumpeque, Kildare, North Cape, and from there to West Cape. Q. All round the shores of the island ? — A. Yes. Q. Where were you the year you got 60 barrels in the Atlantic ? — A. Mostly over at the Magdalen Islands. Q. H.ad you a license that year to fish ? — A. No. (J. Y^ou did not try anywhere else ? — A. We fished a little off Cape George. Q. That trip appears to have been a great failure? — A. Yes. No. 42. The Conference met. Monday, October 8, 1877. Examination of Kobert H. IIulbert, ci'lel on behalf of the Gov- ernment of the United States, resumed. By Mr Foster : Question. When your examination ended on Friday, I was inquiring of you as to the fishery on the coast of Maine in the neighborhood of Mount Desert. Over how large a territory on the coast of Maine does I the ir.ackerel fishery extend, and how long does it last there ? — Answer. I Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 miles, and perhaps more than that. I could not say for certain, for I never remember distances or courses. 2472 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Ninety miles f'rom what !— A. Ninety miles along tbe coast. Q. Along about where ? — A. Portland principally, and from there to Mount Desert. Q. How many months does it last? — A. The principal part of that fishing is from .Tuly 1 to August 25. Q. How far out to sea does it extend ? — A. Somewhere in the neigh- borhood of sixty miles. Q. Could you give a general idea of what portion of all the mackerel that go into the markets of Maine and Massachusetts, and are inspected, are caught between Mount Desert and Block Island, including the Banks, offshore ? — A. Probably, seven-eighths of all the mackerel in- spected. Q. Do you include in that the mackerel which come from Bay St. Lawrence ? — A. No ; ( ii'y those that are caught on the United States coast. Q. Then, on our coast, the fishing for mackerel does not go much farther north than Mount Desert? — A. Nothing of any consequence. Probably there are some mackerel go north of that, but very few of our vessels go alter it. Q. About what season of the year, along from Mount Desert to Mas- sachusetts coast, is the fishing at its height ? — A. In July and August. Q. When do the vessels that fish on the United Sta ,es coast begin to go south again ? — A. The last of September, the 25th September gen- erally ; it depends a great deal on the weather. Q. And how far south do they go? — A. We don't follow those mack erel that go on the coast of Maine farther than the mouth of Vineyard Sound ; that is near Chatham. Q. On the north side of Cape Cod? — A. Yes. Q. And how late do you fish for them off in the vicinity of Chatham ? — A. We fish there only a few days, because after the mackerel com- mence to go down from there they go very fast ; unless the weather is very fine we cannot fish at all for them. Q. What is the latest season of the year when mackerel are fished on the United States coast ? — A. Nothing of any account is done after the 15th November. Q. Where are the mackerel fished so late as that ? — A. Sometimes at Block Island, and sometimes in the vicinity of Massachusetts Bay. Q. Do not your fishermen go farther south than Block Island in autumn, to any extent ? — A. No. Q. What is the quality of the mackerel taken in autumn l — A. Tiiey are generally fat, but they begin to decrease after the last of October. Q. Within what period are the best mackerel taken off Maine, Mas sachusetts, and Block Island ? — A. In September, and till 15th October, perhaps they are the best. Q. What is the quality of the mackerel taken in the spring before they spawn, everywhere ? — A. All No. 3's. Q. "Wherever they are cauf^ht ? — ^ Yes. Q. You have spoken in your examination of having seen food for mackerel as far out as Gejrge's Banks. Will you describe the different kinds of mackerel food you have yourself observed ? — A. The largest quantity of food we find in mackerel is lantz. The largest we find are about four inches in length. Q. Lantz is a kind of sand-eel? — A. Something similar. Then we find what we call all-eyes, a very small fish about half an inch in length. It is a young fish of some kind, I don't know what. Q. Have you any opinion in regard to what it is? — A. We sometimes I AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2473 think tbey are young mackerel. We dou't kuow what they are because they are very young. Q. Where have you found those all-eyes ? — A. In great abundance at Block Island, and often twenty-five miles off the coast of that island. Q. In what quantities have you found them ? — A. They will some- times cover miles of water. They will be on the surface of the water so that you can pick them up in your hand, and can take five or six in the palm of your hand. Q. What extent of surface have you found covered with these little fish ? — A. We find them from alongside of the vessel till we reach three or four miles off in a boat ; we find them the whole distance. I don't know how far they may extend beyond, but quite a distance. Q. Is there any other food for mackerel ? — A. There is what we call cayenne; it is a seed of some kind or spawn. Q. Is there any other food? — A. Hay-seed or red-seed ; it has various names among different classes of people. Q. What is that ?— A. I don't know. Q. It is animal! — A. It is something that has life, I suppose. Q. How far out to sea do you find that? — A. On the George's Banks, auu even to the north, west, and east of the George's. Q. Is that found very extensively, or only in small quantities if — A. At some seasons very extensively, and at other seasons there will not be so much. We cannot tell exactly how extensive it may be. Q. Is there any other mackerel food ? — A. Sometimes the mackerel, when down near the bottom, feed on different kinds of fish near the bottom, such as shrimp. You find shrimp in mackerel at different times. Q. And jelly fish? — A. I don't know that I ever found any jelly iish in them. 1 have seen mackerel tear them to pieces, but whether tliey cat them or not I don't know. I have seen mackerel jump at them, but probably it was for some other fish that were round the jelly fish. Q. You carried fresh mackerel into the New York market ? — A. Yes. Q. That goes packed in ice, I suppose? — A. Yes. Q. How many vessels are engaged in the business of carrying- fresh mackerel into the New York market? — A. About fifty sail. Q. And how many are engaged in the same trade for the Boston mar- ket?— A. Nearly the same number, to the best of my knowledge. Q. Are those vessels of the same size as other vessels engaged in the fishing business elsewhere ? — A. Smaller vessels run with fresh mackerel to Boston than to New York. Q. What would you estimate as the average tonnage of vessels en- gaged in the fresh mackerel trade for New York, and also the average tonuage of vessels engaged in the same trade with Boston ? — A. Prob- ably somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 or 55 tons for Boston, and |ierliai>s 10 or 12 tons more for New York, on an average. Q. Not quite so large as the average of the Cape Ann Heet ? — A. No. Q. Can you give any idea of the quantity of fresh mackerel that goes into the New York market every season ? — A. I should say about a fair average would be 40,000 mackerel to a vessel. Q. Do you mean for the season or trip ? — A. For the season. Q. How many mackerel, such as go into the market, would there be on an average to a barrel ? — A. Of such mackerel as were taken there last spring it would take in the neighborhood of 150 on an average to a barrel. Q. How many fresh mackerel do you think go to the Boston market ? — 2474 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. A. I have not much idea what the qaantity is. I doo't know that I coald come near it. Q. Do those fresh mackerel vessels make a few long trips or many short trips ? — A. They cannot keep oat very long for the fish would not keep. They have to run in with the fish while they are good or they will lose them. Q. About how long are the vessels out ? — A. Sometimes a week, and perhaps ten days ; not longer than ten days after they get fish on board. Q. Now, take your experience in fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. What value would you attach to the right to fish witbia three miles of the shore in British dominions ?— A. What fish do we take inside of three miles ? Q. You can take it in that way or in regard to its value.— A. I could not tell exactly the value because the fish vary in price a great deal. Q. How important do you regard it? — A. At the outside, I have never in my experience taken more than one-eighth of a fare inside of three miles. Q. Do you think that seining mackerel perceptibly diminishes the quantity of mackerel found in the sea ? — A. I cannot tell exactly, because sometimes I think we kill some very young fish. But seining has been going on a number of years, and even three years ago mackerel were just as plentiful as I- ever saw them, and they were quite abundant last year, while this year they are scarce. We cannot account for it. Q. Have you ever known seining to be carried on successfully in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A. No. Q. Do you know any reason therefor ? — A. I hardly know what tbe reason may be ; perhaps it may be tbe tide, or it may be that the mack- erel do not school the same as they do with us. There are various rea- sons. We don't find many mackerel school on that fishing ground. Q. So far as it has been tried there, seining has not been successful ?— A. No. Q. Have you ever fished in the vicinity of Seal Island, near Cape Sabie? — A. I have fished on that fishing ground for codfish sometimes. Q. Have you ever fished for halibut there ? — A. No. Q. Within what distance of Seal Island have you ever fished for cod- fish, and how have you happened to be there? — A. Sometimes we find fish scarce on George's Bank or other Banks where we fish in summer, and we run over there and try; but we hardly ever get inside of from 15 to 25 miles of Seal Island. Q. What is the shallowest water you ever knew the halibut fishery to be prosecutud'in If — A. I could not tell that, because I am not much ac- quainted with the halibut fishing, though I have been some few voyages. Q. You don't expect to catch halibut in much shallower water than codfish?— A. No: generally deeper. Q. And your codfish have not been taken within how far from land ?— A. From 15 to 25 miles of Seal Island, and in that vicinity. Q. You have made cod-fishing voyages ; where to and how many, in general terms ? — A. I could not tell you exactly how many ; quite a number. Q. Where have you been ?— A. To the Grand Banks, Sable Island Banks, and others. Q. Have you tried both trawling and hand-line fishing t — A. Yes. Q. What has been your bait ? — A. For general use, herring. Q. And what else ? — A. Sometimes we used clams. Q. Salt clams? — A. Y'^es; and sometimes squid and menhaden. Q. Menhaden slivers ? — A. Yes. AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2475 Q, Have you ever been in to Newfoundland to buy bait for codfish ? — A. I have been there. Q. To what port?— A. St. Mary's Bay. Q. What did you buy? — A. We bought a lot of caplin; that was all we could get. Q, Was that good bait ? — A. No. Q. Why not? — A. It would not keep any time in ice, and it was too small. Q. What is the bait used on the George's Banks by codfishermcn ? — A. For the first three trips in the winter time they take frozen herring, and after that they usealewives and menhaden, which they get in Vineyard Sound. Q.. In regard to the mackerel fishing, what is the bait used for throw bait by mackerel vessels? — A. Menhaden slivers. Q. How far north is the extreme point where menhaden is caught ? — A. I don't hardly remember, but probably nothing north of Grand Ma- DBU Island, and I don't think they go that far. Q. Can you give us the price of fresh mackerel in New York and Bos- ton markets? — A. I don't know that I can correctly. The prices vary a great deal. By Mr. Davies : Q. You are now pilot on board the Speedwell and do not go mackerel fishing now ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you had much experience in the fisheries of the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? How many seasons have you been there ? — A. I think I Lave been there five seasons. Q. And those seasons cover the whole of your experience there ? — A. Yes. Q. In regard to fishing off the American coast your experience has been more extended ? — A. Yes. Q. How many seasons were you there? — A. Five whole seasons, and parts of perhaps five other seasons. Q. How far from shore were your mackerel taken on the American coast ? — A. All the way from 5 to 50 miles from the land and also off the off-shore Banks. George's Banks are 133 miles from Cape Ann, and we find mackerel there and off the northeast edge of the Banks. Q. Last year and the year before were very good fishing years ? — A. Very favorable ; we could not complain. Q. 1 understand they were exceptionally good ? — A. Yes. Q. What was the condition of the mackerel fishery along the United States coast for the previous eight or ten years ; had it been declin- ing ? — A. It does not appear to have been. Q. When jou say "it does not appear to have been," do you speak from actual experience ? — A. From what I have seen myself. Q. Did you examine the returns to see the quantity caught ? — A. I don't know that I have properly, but as I am amongst the vessels, I have a pretty good chance of knowing how the others have been doing. At the close of every season when the vessels stop seining, I can see the reports of all the vessels and the quantity of fish landed. I have not those in my memory, because I never thought they would be of any assistance to me. Q. Are you able to state whether there was a decline in the mackerel fishery oft' the coast of the United States during the seven or eight years previous to 1875 ? — A. Not to my knowledge ; I could not say there was. 2476 AWABD OF THE FISHERT COMMISSION. Q. Gould you say there was not ? — A. No. Q. In reply to Mr. Foster, where did you say seven-eighths of the inspected fish were caught? — A. I said seven-eighths of the inspected fish in Maine and Massachusetts were caught between Block Island and Mount Desert. Block Island is in the State of Bhode Island, and MouDt Desert is in Maine. Q. Do you mean that to include all fish caught by American vessels ?— A. I mean fish caught on the coast of the United States. I am not speaking of the fish caught in British waters. Q. It does not refer to the fish caught by American vessels in British waters? — A. No. Q. You speak from your practical knowledge, haviug been on the ground and seen the fish taken ? — A. Yes. Q. You say that seven-eighths of the mackerel caught by American vessels in American waters are caught between those two points ? — A. Yes. Q. And the other one-eighth is taken where ? — A. It is taken to the southward of that, between Hatteras and Block Island. Q. Have you examined the inspection returns ? — A. We see them generally every season when the fishing is done. Q. You have not got any returns with you ? — A. No. Q. When 'you make your return after a fishing voyage, does that return embrace a statement of the places where the fish were taken ?— A. No. Q. Does it embrace the fact that the fish were taken in American or British waters ? — A. It does not. Q. Then if an American vessel took a cargo of fish into one of their ports, it would not appear from the official returns whether the fish had been caught in British or American waters ? — A. We see that a vessel is reported with so many barrels of fish from such a place. Q. That is in the newspapers ? — A. Yes. Q. Is there any official record kept ? — A. There iy a record of each vessel kept by the owner. Q. I understood you to say, speaking with regard to the United States coast, that there is a special school of mackerel in the neighborhood of Block Island, which is known as Block Island mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. And that they remain there the whole season and do not come north ? — A. They do not come north ; we don't find them north. Q. I understood you to say that mackerel fishing on the Americau coast begins in May and does not end till November ? — A. It begins as early as 25th April. When it closes depends a great deal on the weather. If there is a blustery, cold autumn, the mackerel will not stay so long ; but if there is moderate weather, they will stay till 15th No- vember. Q. The fish remain on the coast, more or less, during that time ? — A, Yes. Q. And are taken in large and small quantities the whole of that time ? — A. Not in large quantities in the latter part of the season ; the bodj' of th^ fish have gone ort' the coast. Q. All the fish taken before the spawning season you class as No. 3? — A. Y'^es; all that are long enough. They are threes and small threes. Q. When you speak of American vessels fishing in the spring for mackerel oflf the United States coast, they are fishiug for the inferior class of mackerel I — A. Yes. Q. You described the difiereot places where mackerel spawn, and you AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2477 said tbe time of spawning varied at ditt'erent places along the American coast?— A. Yes. Q. flow do you know that mackerel spawn on George's Shoal f — A. Because there is a certain quantity of them taken there before spawning, and others taken there after spawning. Q. How do you know they spawn there? Have you seen young mackerel there? — A. I have seen all-eyes, which we suppose arc young mackerel, on the George's. Q. Describe them. — A. It is a very small fish, probably not more than half an inch in length, and its eyes are more conspicuous than any otber part of the body. You notice the eyes of the fish when swimming in the water before you observe the body. Q. You call them all eyes for that reason ? — A. Yes. Q. That is what makes you believe that mackerel spawn on George's Banks?— A. Yes. Q. Do I understand you to say that there are two schools of mackerel that come along the United States coast and that a distinct school comes along the Maine coast? — A. The fish do not all come in to the coast at one time. Q. At different times ? — A. Yes. Q. And a little later as you come further north? — A. Yes. The fish do not all strike the coast at one point. Sometimes the mackerel will sirike a little to the north of Hatteras, and you will fall in with another school of fish 50 miles north, that will come near the coast, within 50 miles, and perhaps less. Q. You said you found a body of fish frequenting JiTantucket shoals, anil you found that body afterwards on George's Banks? — A. We find Ihem sometimes at George's afterward; sometimes they don't get so far eastward as that. We usually find part of them on the George's, r.t the southwest part. Q. The mackerel that are found off the coast of Maine remain there until they begin to return to their haunts for the winter, wherever those haunts may be ? — A. Yes ; the mackerel on the coast of Maine and Mas- sacliusetts. Q. Do you know whether fishermen ever take mackerel in the winter season in muddy places ? — A. I have heard of mackerel being taken out ot the mud with a spear in the winter time. Q. Whereabouts ? — A. In Cape Cod Bay, Bridgeharapton Bay, and in tbe vicinity of Cape Cod. Q. Did you ever examine the eye of the mackerel in early spring? — A. Yes. Q. Can you tell the Commission whether the eye is then in the con- dition in which you find it afterwards, during the mackerel season, or what difference is there? — A. When we first find the mackerel in early spring, there is always a sort of scale over probably two-thirds of the eye. As the mackerel work north, the scale conies off", and the last mackerel we find, those in the middle of November, have the scale again, covering a quarter of the eye. Q. It would then seem that in the spring the eye has a film over it, and as the season advances, this works off? — A. Yes. Q. And as the colder season comes on, the film covers the eye again ! — A. It appears that something grows over the eye as the weather grows colder. Q. Have you heard of mackerel being taken in winfer under the ice '! — A. I liave heard of their being taken when the ice was on the flats, but not when the harbor was frozen. 2478 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. They were taken from the mud below the ice ? — A. Yes ; at the deepest part of the island. Q. When thus taken, would the film be over the eye ! — A. I don't know. I only saw one caught in that way, and I did not take notice of that point. Q. Do you know whether the mackerel winter in the mud ! — A. I could not say, but we have reason to think they do. That is the general opinion of fishermen — that the mackerel winter in the mud. Q. Do the mackerel remain on George's Shoal all the season, as the mackerel do at Block Island?— A. Some seasons they do, and other seasons they remain there only a short time. They have been takeu there some years during all the season. Q. You were five seasons fishing in the gulf, I believe? — A. Yes. Q. At what special places did you fish while there ?— A. The principal part of my fishing in Gulf St. Lawrence was at the Magdalen Islands. Q. You never fished much in other parts ? — A. Not greatly ; I have fished in other parts of the bay. Q. Have you ever fished in Bay Chaleurs? — A. Yes, one summer. We spent one week there one summer. Q. What year was it ? — A. I cannot remember the year. Q. Can you remember the vessel you were in ? — A. I think it was in the Pocumtuc. Q. That would be some time in 1865?— A About that time. Q. Had you any license at that time ? — A. I cannot recollect whether we had or not ; but I don't remember hearing anything about a license. Q. Was there much of a fleet in Bay Chaleurs when you were there ?— A. No ; there were three vessels there. Q. Where did you go? — A. We went up as faraa Port Daniel, on the north side of the bay. Q. Did you fish close to the shores at all ? — A. We tried round in the bay, but we did not find anything. Q. You did not go ou the south side 1 — A. No. Q. Did you fish off the Gasp6 coast, and up at Bonaventure ? — A. I never fished there. Q. Or at Seven Islands ? — A. No. Q. You don't know anything about those fishing-grounds? — A. No. Q. Have you tried along the west coast of New Brunswick, from Miscou Point to Miramichi? — A. I fished part of one summer along there. Q. Did you fish close inshore there? — A. We did not fish close in- shore, for the water is too shallow to raise a body of mackerel. We fished from North Cape, Prince Edward Island, to Miscou Island. Q. Did you fish within three miles of the shore on the west side of New Brunswick ? — A. To my certain knowledge, I did not. Q. Then you don't know anything of that fishing-ground ? — A. No. Q. Have you tisbed within three miles of the shore at Prince Edward Island ? — A. Undoubtedly I have at different times. Q. And you caught nothing to speak of? — A. Yes ; I anchored there many times under the lee of the land at different parts of the island. Q. You did not catch many mackerel ? — A. We never took but very few mackerel inside of what we supposed was three miles off shore, ac- cording to the soundings laid down on our chart, and the soundings we found with our lead. Q. What cfiart did you use ? — A. Eldridge's, mostly. Q. An American chart? — A. Yes. Q. You did not use Bayfield's chart ? — A. Not much. ▲WABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2479 Q. From the chart you jadged yon were within three miles of the fjliore?— A. That is the way we jadged, by onr soundings. Q. You tried the Oaiie Breton coast ? — A. Yes. Q. How did you find the fishing there f — A. I remember catching some maclcerel one season near Margaree Island. Q. Any quantity to speak of! — A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or 35 barrels. Q. Those were all T — A. They were got in one day's fishing at the lat- ter part of the season. Q. You have already stated that you caught one-eighth of your mack- erel inshore ; where did you get them ? — A. Inside of three miles at the Magdalen Islands. Q. You never caught any mackerel at all, except 35 bairels, within three miles of the shore, except at the Magdalen Islands? — A. Yes; I have caught a few mackerel at different times, within three miles of the land, probably at Prince Edward Island. I have taken mackerel there inshore, in very small quantities, perhaps one barrel or two. Q. Apart from the barrel or two caught at Prince Edward Island, you never caught any fish within three miles of the shore, but 35 bar- rels around Cape Breton T — A. That is the largest catch I took, know- ing I was within three miles of the land. Q. Did you catch many within four miles of the land ? — A. No. Q. Did you catch many within five miles T — A. No. You cannot raise a sufficient body of mackerel in less than 20 fathoms of water to lay to and heave bait. I am speaking as I found it. Q. Do I understand you to say that you cannot raise a large body of mackerel within three or four miles of the shore? — A. I venture to say that I cannot do it, for there is not deep enough water. Q. Then is it not curious that you can find them around the Magda- len Islands ? — A. It is deeper water there than around any part of the coast. Q. Does not this map (a chart of the coast of North America from the Strait of Belle Isle to Boston, includiug the banks and islands of Newfoundland) show that the soundings around Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton are deeper than those off Magdalen Islands ? — A. I don't know but this map shows that. Q. Would you say, looking at this map, that within three miles of Magdalen Islands you can find water 20 or 25 fathoms deep ? — A. In some parts we do. Q. Within three miles of the shore? — A. We do. I don't know that I can find it marked 20 fathoms deep. Q. You have shown why mackerel cannot be caught at Prince Ed- ward Island? — A. I don't say they cannot be caught there. I have caught them there myself in small quantities. Q. Apart from the two or three barrels, you said mackerel were not to be had there, and you gave as a reason that the water was not deep enough ? — A. Sometimes we took them inside of three miles at the Magdalen Islands ; sometimes not within fifteen miles of land. It is giviug a large proportion to say that one-eighth of my catches were taken within three miles of land. Q. You did not say that it was giving a large or small proportion ? — A. I did not want to put it down too small. I have seen many trips taken when no fish were taken anywhere except at Magdalen Islands, and there pretty well offshore. Q. You gave evidence that one-eighth of the catch was taken inshore ; none appear to have been taken inshore except 35 barrels off' Cape Bre- 2480 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ton, and two or three barrels off Prince Edward Island ?— A. Did I say that two or three barrels were taken off Prince Edward Island, or two or three barrels each time we tried If Q. Would it surprise you to hear that three-fourths or seven-eighths of the fish caught by boat-fishermen are taken within three miles, and almost within two miles, of the shore ? — A. I would be very much so. Q. Your theory would fall to the ground i — A. I should think so. Q. Your experience in jthe gulf is confined to five seasons if — A. That is all : and part of that I remember very little of. Q. You don't know what the other vessels have taken, or where their catches were taken ? — A. No. Q. You wish to confine your experience to that obtained in your ves- sel?— A. Yes. Q. You wish the reason why mackerel could not be taken inshore to be received that it is because the water is too shallow, and that there must bo 20 or 25 fathoms 1 — A. That is the way I caught mackerel my- self. Q. Do you mean that that is with hand-lines or seines ? — A. That is with hand-lines. I have never been seining. Q. Do you know why seines are not successful in the gulf? — A. I don't know. I have heard various reasons given. Q. Have you ever heard that it was because the mackerel were too close to the shore to enable the seiners to catch them ? — A. I have heard that reason. Q. Have you heard it from fishermen ? — A. I don't know but that I have. Q. Have you any doubt about it ? — A. I cannot say I have or that I have not. I may have heard so. Q. That they cannot seine mackerel because they are in too shallow water? — A. They have been seined there this summer. Q. To any large extent ! — A. I don't know to how large an extent. Q. Do you know whether any seiners have adapted their seines to the waters of the gulf ? — A. I cannot say as to that ; I have not been there. Q. So, practically', jou know very little about the fishing in the gulf ?— A. I admit I know very little about it, and I will do less than I do now, Q. You find your present position more profitable than that of a mack- erel fisherman ?— A. Probably my present position may not continue long. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Have you been many seasons to the Grand Banks fishing? — A. Xo. Q. How many times ? — A. Perhaps once or twice. Q. When were those occasions? — A. I cannot give you the dates. Q. Nor the years ? — A. No. Q. Did you fish with salt or fresh bait ? — A. I have been there and fished with salt bait altogether some seasons. When I sailed ont of Provincetown I fished with salt bait altogether. Q. Have you ever used fresh bait on the Grand Banks?— A. I have part of a voyage, part of the season. Q. Where did you get it? — A. We bought it at Prospect, above Halifax. Q. What year was it that you went into St. Mary's Bay for caplin ?— A. That was the year I was in the Pocumtuc; in the spring we went in there. We did not go in exactly for bait, but in coming out we bought some caplin. I cannot tell you the year. Q. How many barrels did you buy ? — A. About 15 barrels. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2481 Q. That is the only time you used caplin ? — A. That is the only time I Lave used any. Q. Are you sure the caplin you purchased at that time were perfectly fresh when you put them in ice f — A. I could not say. We got them from one or two boats which came up to us j but whether they had been caiifjht 24 hours before or that morning 1 could not say. Q. Suppose other parties who have had experience in the use of caplin for bait packed in ice pronounced it to be a tish which would keep longer tban any other, would you be disposed to contradict the statement? — A. No ; because I have only tried it once, and I speak as I found it. Q. You flsh with trawls and hand-lines ? — A. We were fishing with trawls then. Q. Fresh bait, I believe, is far superior to salt bait in fishing with trawls ? — A. I did not find it so that season. We had salt clams, a very costly bait, and we got our trip on it. Q. How much did you pay per barrel for that bait? — A. I think $10 that spring. Q. Do you remember what you gave for the caplin ? — A. From $1 to $1.50 per barrel. It was not over $2. Q. The season you were fishing, were many American vessels fishing near you ? — A. Yes. Q. Were they using fresh or salt bait ? — A. Some with fresh and some with salt bait. Those using fresh bait did not tish where we did. We could not catch fish where they were. We could not catch as many as we could by ourselves. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. You spoke of the mackerel coming at dlflferent parts of the year to the coast and spawning ? — A. Y'es. Q. They must be dift'erent schools of fish, I suppose ? — A. l''es. Q. The3" come from the deep waters and go inshore and spawn? — A. Yes. Q. The fish spawning off Mount Desert would not belong to the same school as those which spawn off Sandy Hook? — A. Certainly not. Q. Do you take the mackerel on St. George's Bank and the Banks in the gulf where the bottom is rocky and broken, or where it is sandy, or ilo you take them under both these circumstances ? — A. Under both. But I do not know that I ever took much notice of that, because our seines do not go to the bottom, and we have not much idea of what the bottom is. Q. What is the case with the places which you have described as those where you go ? — A. Some are rocky, and more parts are sandy. Q. Where is this so ? Give an instance of it. — A. It is very rooky off Block Island. Q. And you take them there, as I understand it, rather later in the season than at other places ? — A. Yes. There is a place twenty-one i miles southeast of Block Island where there is a small bank. A great many cod-fishermen lay there, and it is the best place for the Isirge mack- I erel to play and show themselves. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q, Do you consider that the mackerel go actually into the niiul ? — A. I I do not know as they do so. Q. Do you believe that this is the case ? — A. Yes. Q. But they are not of the nature of a mud fish at all ? — A. I do not [know that they are. 156 F 2482 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. What do you thiok as to the theory of mackerel migrating ? Do you believe tliat they go south altogether, or that they merely pass ofl shore iuto deep water?— A. I do not think that they go very far south, but rather that they go out to the northern edge of the Oulf Stream. Q. Do you think that they go altogether there ? — A. Probably all do not go ; perhaps there are other places where they go; but I think that they go away until they find warm water. Q. Is that the character of any o^her fish, to migrate into warm water 1 — A. We have schools of other kinds of fish that come from the southward; there is the cod, which comes on the Banks. Q. Is their migration as well established as that of the mackerel ;'— A. I do not know but that it is. Q. Have you observed where they strike ? — A. I do not know that I have. Q. What signs have you seen of codfish migrating? — A. Well, I have caught them in different parts, of course. Q. Are there signs of their migrating ? Do they migrate into warm water ? — A. I do not think that they do ; of course, we find some of them on the Banks, but we do not know where they go to or come from. I cannot tell. Q. No more than you can with respect to the mackerel ? — A. I do not know but this is the case. Q. You do not know whether the mackerel go into deep water or to the Gulf Stream ? — A. I do not know whether they go into the mud at all ; that is only what I think is the case. Q. Have you seen evidence enough in all your experience to satisfy yon clearly that the mackerel go into the Gulf Stream or spend their winter elsewhere ? — A. I do not know as X could say. No. 51. James Currie, master mariner and fisherman, of Pictou, was called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. How old are you ? — Answer. Fifty-four. Q. Have you ever fished for mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. Where? — A. In the bays of Pictou; in what is called the North- umberland Strait, from Cape George to Pictou Island, and from Cape George to Murray Harbor, and also from Pictou Island again to what is called the Gulf Wharf at Arisaig, and clear to the West Cape of Prince Edward Island. Q. In vessels or in boats? — A. In boats. Q. How large were they ? — A. Some of them were 20 feet keel, and others 22 feet and 25 feet. Q. How far out from the shore did the boats go when you fished in j them ? — A. From Pictou Harbor to the East Point of Pictou Island is a distance of 9 miles, and from the latter point to Arisaig Wharf is some- thing like 12 to 15 miles. Q. From land to land?— A. Yes. Q. How far out is most of the boat fishing with which you arel acquainted, done? — A. All I can tell you is that I have fished close] along the shore, and that there we could not get anything worth speak- ing of. Q. Estimate the distance out at which you fished. — A. What I call 1 shore fishing is done from half a mile to 1^ miles out, and no quantity AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2483 of llsb 18 to be got there, but you can go ofif shore 3 miles and outside ot tliat, and get lisli. Q. Were, j'ou ever a pilot for a government vessel ? — A. Yes ; this was before confederation — iu 185*. Q. Wliat were the names of the vessel and her captain ? — A. Uq- sponsible was the vessel's name, and Philip Dodd the name of the captain. if. What was this vessel doing while you were pilot ? — A. We were looldng after the American fishermen. (,>. For what purpose ? — A. To see that they did not intrude on the shore fisheries. Wo cruised on the north side of Prince Edward Island, around on the south side of Cape Breton, and occasionally on the north side of Cape Breton. il How long were you on that vessel ?— A. Five or six months,*! should say. ii. Did you find the American vessels fishing within 3 miles of the shore ?— A. We did not Hnd any fishing within throe miles of the shore ; tliey were all outside of that limit. Q. Were any seizures made J — A. None were made by the lie- sponsible. Q. Did you see any made by other vessels ?— A. No ; but I heard of this being done. Q. Who owned the Responsible ? — A. My father. C^. And how did the government happen to have her under charge 1 — A. They chartered her from my father. Q. Have you seen the boats go ofif-shore and flsh in company with United States vessels ? — A. Yes ; I saw this occur between Port Hood and Margaree Island, where we used to cruise considerably. I saw Scotch boats, as I call them, pull off and make fast to American schoon< ers, and get a good quantity of fish, loading their boats and going ashore; and that was outside of the three-mile limit. Q. You saw them made fast to the American schooners ? — A, Yes. Q. According to your observation, does fishing by the American ves- sels injure the boat fishery ? — A. No. Q. Why uot ? — A. Because, on the grjounds where they fish, as far as I have seen, the Americans feed the fish by heaving over quantities of bait. Q. Are any fishing-vessels fitted out from Halifax; and, if so, how many ? — A. I do uot exactly know, but there are not many fitted out from Halifax. Q. Are there any ? — A. I do not know of any. Q. Do tho ""hf^rmeii up here in the provinces, as far as you have ob- served, ,et rii^ U . -A. No ; they are generally poor. ' they lay up money ? — A. No. ..y whom is *he money made on fish? — A. By the merchants in lax. By Mr. Thomson : il Ai you a practical fisherman yourself ? — A. Y'es. Q. How long have you b^on engaged in fishing!? — A. I caught my first fish wheu I was 14 year v. Id. Q. And how old are you ? — A. Fifty-four. Q. And have you been engaged in fishing ever since you were 14 ? — A. No ; uot all the time. I have been a pilot as well as a fisherman. Q. Do you call yourself a practical fisherman ? — A. I do. Q. Have you gone on ti liug- voyages? — A. I am a practical boat* I fisherman. ■0^^-, 2484 AWARD OF Tin; FiSlIKrwV COMMISiSION. Q. You havo not HsIumI in any scliooiior ? — A. Vos: l);it not as a lish ornian. 1 have niado trading trips, liavinj^ yono to buy llsli, but not to flsb inysoH". Q. Vou have not hoou iii a vossol on};a;;oil in ll.sliing .' — A. I have ncviM' been on^iWd in vessels as a hsluMinan. ii. Thou you aro not a |)ra«'ti<'al (ishornian 4'xcopt as concorns boals? — A. 1 slu)uhi say tiiat a man \vh«) unilorstauds b(»at tisliing could also llsh on board of a schoonor. Q. Vou havo no\or fished on a schooner ? — A. Not as a llsherinan. Q,. Did you ever lish at all in tlu^ Uay ot St, l^awreuce ? — A. Yes. Q. In boats? — A. Yes. 1,>. WluM-e?— A. Oir St. Peter's i). Did you po to reside tiiere i — A. No. C^>,. You iiappened to tisli there ? — A. I ran over there in a l>oat, )»(> catise we eouhl not tiu'ii get any lisii at home Q. You went tiuM'e from IMctou ? — A. Yes. i). To which St. Peter's (Jid you go ?— .V. To St. Peter's on the nortli side of I'rinee I'ldwanl Island. Q. Did you go over tliere in an open boat ? — A, Yes. Q. AVhat is tiie distance across ? — A. I th) not know as 1 e u!d (ell you now exactly. Q. What is about the «listanco ? — A. It is something like !L''» rjiiics, I guess, ar«>'M»d down, f<» F,!!>it I'oint; 'wA tl'.en i! is Ix'twceti 10 and ."ill uiih s up the island to St. JVter's. Q. That woidd make the distaniic 170 miles? — A. I will not awear t« that. Q. You went there in an open boat ? — A. Y'es. <^>. How often did you try that experiment ? — A. Twice in my lir<'- tinu». 1 was there this summer in u boat which 1 buili myself, and 1 was there twelve years ago. Q, That would be in JS(J.j?— A. I «lo not know about that; but 1 know that it is all of twelve years ago. AVe loaded with codfish. Q. You were not then mai;kerel-fishing ? — A. No; that was in tlio si)ring. Q. Vou lu'ver fished for mackerel in the Uay of St. Lawrence at all '.— A. Yes; 1 have. i). When? — A. Fifteen years ago. i},. What were you in ? — A. A schooner. Q. I thought you told me you never fished in a schooner? — A. Wo were trading, and sometimes when we could not buy any fish weturiioii to and caught them ; but this was not nuiking a summer's work of it. You asked me if I was a hired fisherman, and I told vou that 1 was not. Q I have done .so; but not as a hired fisherman Q. What, then, was your business ?— A. 1 was hired under the i>oss trader of that schooner. Q. What wcic you doing ? — A. Trading. (}. AVhere ?— A. We were at North Cai)e, Cape IJreton, and previ(»ii.sly at Ingonish, Cape Breton, aiul then we went, into the JJay of St. Law fence and afterwai'd to the south side of North Cape, Capo Jireton. Q. ])id you trade at Prince Edward Island? — A. No; but we liap l)ened to sail that way, and we heaved out the lines one vening to see if wo could catch any mackerel. We were going to IMctou wlien we were caught by a head-wind and taken as far as Cascumi)e(pie ; the wind then headed off again and we came around East Point and went home. Q. You did not trade then ?— A. No. I asked you if you were in the habit of fishing in schoonws.— A. (}■ Vou did n i(i:ii(l, and we m (}. Ibit was trailing ; ,slie lin if. What . What do yc iiiilt's, iiiid p(>iliii| Q. Milt were yi . Did you try <>>■ I suppose y( »er(^ in a IbiUs'h we coidd get fish. 'i>- Did you alt« H'll you i)Iainly tl tlioie to any a'm Muurkend there Q. Ami that is 'li''n" .'—A. No. . Other days. > *i'- Do I Miider.sl li'^iicries al<)ng I'li ""' 'liink that, tin '^ J>Miing how A. I was fourteen ^i- ^Vas this on ■^iK'i't Harbor, do I'ir'tou, and the n ^liiTo fishing. M.\ ♦i!- I umlerstani i''>* on the norflj « miles of the coast "ifi; that i,s the w Q- Ami the wav Q. While you li \ I AWARD OK TMK FIMHKHY ro.MMIMNION. 248? (}. Voii did nol, ;,'<) out to fl.sli iit all? — A. \V(i liiul (iHliiiif^-j^jfar on luiiinl, iiiitl we went, lor the pinposo of (ratcliiti^ lisli fliat, day. {). I'.iit was your .srliooncr lit tod out lor lisliing / — A. No, hut for tr:nliii}i' ; nIio had, howcncr, li.sliiii;; f^iNir on hoard. (}. What l'(M>urse. NVIien \V(^ eonld not huy, \v(! eanuht them if we, e,onld. <}. Mow many lish did yon <;iit(;h dnriti<,' the whole trij) ? — A. Wo (Miijilit I."»() harrels. {}. Where? — i\. Ilelwecn [n}foniMh,('ape |{reton,atid St. IVitia's, Princo Ildward Island. We were notexa(^tly (!lose inshoi'e. (^>. What do you eall chtHe insh(>re ? — A. l-'rom onelialf h mile to 1 -J miles, and perhajts \'l or ■> miles oil slnne. (}. r.iit were yon very neaily elos<( inshon^ .' — A. We were not inside (tf three miles from it 'uiyway; none of them were taken within this limit. i). Xot one of them f — A, No. i). I suppose thai you would not have ean^^ht any within thnM', miles of the shore it" yon eould have doiu'. so.' — .V. Yes; we would, if we couid have j^ot any there. <}. Hid you try in there, ? — A. \vh. (}. I suppose you knew that you had no ri;;ht to lish tln-re ' — .\. We \\{']v in a IJritish schooner, and we had a rij;lit to lish anywheie where we could }jet lish. 'i>. Did you attempt to lish within three miles of the shore? — A. I It'll yon i)lainly that we tried in (here, liut we could not ^(it the lish lliore to any amount. (), What did you eatch there ? — A. I remember that one day wo took 'J.'> iiiaekend there. (i. And that is the oidy day you do remember of having caught fish. tjifre A. ^^ <^ What other days did yon do so .' — .V. There aro plenty more; day.s uiicn this was the case. <,*. I suppose you renu^mber that day bei-anse so few weri^ then r.ui^ilit '. — A. Yes; it did not pay us miicli for that day's work. <^ Other days you di. Do I understand yon to state to the (Jominission that the inshore lisiicries alonj^ I'rinco ICdward Island are ;;()od for iKtthin;^' ' — A. I do lint lliink that they are ^ood for aiiythin;^:, be'weiMi yon and me. <^ Dniiiif;' how many years have you been acipiainted with them .' — A. I was lourteen when I caught my first lish. t^ Was this on the? shore of I'rinco Mdwai'd Island .' — \. No; but, off ■"^liiTt Harbor, down here. In l.s."»7, my father moved to the town of l'i<1()ii, and ti(e next s|)rin. What w€ we could not gi side of the islai Q. And you Q. Will you you were ? — A. other three are sou is now livin Q. And you i months. Q. And duric it worth while. Q. What did nnd 20 quintals Q. And that \ Q. Js that a sj —A. It is — aboi Q. Did you al Murray Harbor ! Q. Where else down on this 8id( Q. Where did was with Tom Mi Q. Did you flsl Q. And you ca some, of course. Q. What indue liad ?— A. I was „ fish to be got the] not the means, au Q- But there \y[ wanted capital in Q. How was th| 'f J had, I would l Q. You say tha ^l Why, then, ^faud that I was I, I had to do as ml ii'>t catch the fish., Q. Did you noti 1 es. Q- And though I shore?— A. Yes; , Q. Do you not i tliat locality themj Q. Had they sut , Jut they did not , 'nghteued to go oJ I au open boat. ] Q- And you are Q. Where did U AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2487 Q. Murray Harbor is on the south side of Prince Edward Island ? — A. Yes. Q. What did you go there for? — A. I was seeljing for employment. Q. And you were employed in boats there ? — A. Yes. Q. You went in boats from there to fish for mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What were you fitted out for generally? — A. For codflshing; but we could not get them on that shore, and so we went round to the north side of the island to see what we could do mackerel fishing. Q. And you could not catch any mackerel ? — A. Not inshore. Q. Will you give us the names of the owners of these boats in which you were ? — A. One of them was named Jackson ; and I think that the other three are lost ; they are dead now. I forget their names. Jack- sou is now living. Q. And you remained fishing for three months ? — A. For two or three months. Q. And during this time you caught nothing? — A. Nothing to make it worth while. Q. What did you get? — A. Something like 15 barrels of mackerel and 20 quintals of codfish. Q. And that was all ?— A. ITes. Q. Is that a specimen of your catches all through these twenty times? —A, It is — about. Q. Did you always go fishing there during those twenty times from Murray Harbor?— A. No. Q. Where else did you go from? — A. We went once from Whitehead, down on this side of Canso. Q. Where did you go then ? — A. To the north side of the island. I was with Tom Munroe, who is living now. Q. Did you fish inshore ? — A. Yes. Q. And you caught nothing ? — A. Nothing to speak of; but we got some, of course. Q. What induced you to go fishing there after the experience you bad ? — A. I was hard up, and did not want to remain idle. There were fish to be got there if you went off the shore far enough ; but we had not the means, and we could not get them. Q. But there were fish there? — A. Y'es; off on the grounds ; but we wanted capital in order to catch them. Q. How was the fishing where you were ? — A. I did not see any fish; if I liiul, I would have got some of them. Q. You say that the inshore fisheries are worth nothing ? — A. Y'es. (^ Why, then, did you continue to fish there? — A. Y'ou must under- staud that I was not master of the boat. I was only a hired man, and 1 had to do as my master told me ; and that is the reason why we did not catch the fish. Q. Did you not tell them that they could get no fish inshore ? — A. Yes. Q. And though you told them that it was of no use, they did fish in- shore?— A. I'^es ; certainly. Q. Do you not think that they had had some experience in fishing in that locality themselves ? — A. Perhaps this was the case. Q. Had they such experience or not ? — A. I thought this was the case ; but they did not keep to their arrangement with me; they were too frightened to go oil" shore, but some men are not frightened to do so in an open boat. Q. And you are one of them ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you put up at night ? — A. In the cuddy, forward. 'immv. £ "*^ir;#-" 'r'"'':-tr^ t Hip. 2488 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. *. ' i.'illliiir;; %wM '^iZ Q. You (lid uot go insLore ? — A. No. Q. You did not then mm into .1 barbor ? — A. If it was dark and stormy looking we certainly would go in for tbe nigbt. Q. Tben on tbeso dittereut occasions you never made barbor at night ? — A. Yes ; but not as a general tbing. Q. And on tbese different occasions you kept inshore .' — A. Tbe man I was hired with did so. Q. This was the case on the twenty occasions you speak of? — A. Yos; save on two of tbese occasions, when I went fishing in boats belonging to myself. Q. And on eighteen occasions you kept inshore? — A. Yes. Q. And caught nothing there? — A. Yes; nothing worth speaking of Q. And tbese people would not go out beyond 3 miles to fish ? — A. No. Q. How far from the laud did you keep ? — A. From half a mile to 15 and U miles. Q. In other words, you actually fished eighteen times, for two or three months at a time, and you never caught more than 15 or 10 barrels of fish ?— A. No. Q. You so fished during eighteen dittereut seasons for three mouths at a time ? — A. Yes. Q. How did you get provisions ? — A. We took them w itb us. Q. Did you take i)rovisions for tliree months in an open boat ? — A. Yes ; the}' were stowed away in tbe cuddy. Q. Was tliis an open boat? — A. Yes ; with a cuddy forward. There were from four to five or six hands on board. A barrel of flour, witli other things, will do this number for six month's time. Q. What was tbe size of tbe boat ? — A. 20, 2li, or 25 feet keel. You can get boats down here with IS feet keel that will carry 500 quintals of codfish. Q. And provisions for six mouths ? — A. A barrel of flour, with other necessities, stores, will do it. Q. AVhere do you stow them ? — A. Forward. Q. Not in tbe cuddy ? — A. Yes. Q. And you had barrels of fish on board, and salt, and all that ?— A. Certainly. Q. How many barrels had you on board ? — A. A SOOtpiintal boat could take about 150 barrels. Q. How many had you on board ? — A. About 100, I suppose, incliul lug whole barrels and half barrels, to make stowage for the boat. Q. How juany barrels of salt had you ' — A. We buy this by the hogs- head, but to make ballast we put it into barrels, unheading them as wo use it. A hogshead holds 7 bushels. Q. How many hogsheads had you ? — A. About 15. Q. You had besides 100 barrels to i)Ut tish in aboard J — A. Yes; and we could stow tish away iii bulk. Q. And besides all these you had in an open b'Mt provisions for six men for three months? — A. Yes. Q. And all this in a boat of 25 feet kool .'--A. Yes; that is done in the country. Q. And you never went into a harbor at all .'—A. We used to do so it it looked dark and stormy and the like of that. Q. And you never went outside of tbe three-mile limit while on these voyages? — V. No; not in the boats in which I was a hired man. Q. You did not do so these eighteen times ? — A. No. Q. Never at all ? — A. No ; not in the boats in which I was. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2489 Q. And tbey would not go more than l.i miles out ? — A. No; but I saw boats outside of that. Q. But they would not go there ? — A. Yes. Q. And this was done for eighteen ditfereut seasons; the sanii thing ^vas done over and over again J — A. Yes. v»o^ Q. So that from this experience you swear positively that, in your opin- ion, the inshore fisheries on the north side of the Trince Edward Island are good for nothing I — A. They are good for nothing; and this is also the case with the shore fishery of Northumberland Strait. ,.":^ Q. And if people came here and swore that plenty of fish are to be caught, and are caught, on the north side of Prince Edward Island, you would not believe one word of it ? — A. No more than as to what I have stated ; you may get there from 10 to 15 quintals of codfish, and per- haps from 15 to 20 barrels of mackerel ; but this is not going to pay a crew. Q. You do not believe it if people say that the best fishing is in- shore ?— A. No ; not one word of it. v>r "^ Q. In fact, the inshore fisheries are worth nothing ? — A. Yes ;^bub outside the limits you will get fish. -hmt * (}. l>ut with that splendidly fitted out boat you never thought of going out there to try ? — A. No. Q. How far along the shores of Prince Edward Island did you fish on these occasions? — A. As far as Cascumpeque, I think. (^>. Bid you fish off Itustico ? — A. I cannot say that we hove a line ofi" there. Q. Did you sail up as far as that ? — A. Yes ; we went as far as Cas- cuuipecine. Q. NVhy did you not try there ? — A. A fair wind was blowing, and we did not think it worth while. (}. Is not Rustico considered the best fishing-ground around the island '? — A. No. (}. Where is the best fishing-ground around the island ? — A. Off New London. Q. That is the next harbor to Ilustico .' — A. Yes. Q. Did you try there ? — A. No. (}. Why not ' — A. Well, when I was there I was a hired man ; I was not master of the boat, and I could not tell my master to go to work and fish there. Q. Did he fish at Rustico ? — A. We fished inshore, but we got nothing; what I call getting nothing is when a man makes a voyage, and when he loines back cannot pay his debts ; that is nothing, and worse than nothing. i). You say you were in the schooner Responsible in 18.13 .' — A. Yes. (}. And you took no American vessels fishing in the bay within the three-mile limit ? — A. No ; one morning we found one inside at i\Iag- ilalen Island, but when we came to examine, she was getting wood and water. Q. You never saw any other American vessel inside of the limit ? — A. Q. Did you not see others, which got out of the way, ami beyond the [ tliree-mile limit before you could take them ? — A. No; we sailed along [one foggy morning, and tried to catch them, but we could not. (i>. You wished to see if any were inside :' — A. Yes. Q. Why, then, did you try to catch them ? — A. It was on account of Itbe noise made about their imposing on the provinces ; and the thing I was to get them if we could. Mm .#'^:#i^^ i i Ut^^yfc"' i;Sfe;: '^•^^^'^-- 2490 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. You knew that there were none within the three-mile limit ? — A, We sailed along the shore in a fog and tried to catch them. We sailed from cape to cape, in the vicinity of the three-mile line, but none of tlie American vessels attempted to come inside. Q. Did 5'ou not say you tried to catch them inside? — A. No; wc sailed from cape to cape, in the fog, but never found one of them inside. Q. You never saw one of them ? — A. Not inside ; but there were plenty outside in the fog ; and I saw the Scotch boats make fast to them and catch mackerel. Q. Was this on foggy days ? — A. Yes ; and other days, too. Q. There were other government vessels in there at that time ? — A, Y'es. Q. And they happened to seize vessels? — A. I think they had to give some of them up afterward. Some seizures were made ; but I do not know whether they were legal or not. We did not see a chance to make any legally. Q. How many vessels were seized that year ? — A. I do not remember just now. Q. Of how many seizures did you hear ? — A. I could not tell you just now, it is so long ago, and I have not bothered my memory about it since. I think that Ley bold took one or two, as near as I can recollect, and the brig Halifax was out at the same time. Sir Colin Campbell, ou a man-of-war brig, had something to do with some of them, and he made more mischief with Nova Scotia fishermen for telling yarns about these matters than with the Americans, and he did not let the former out of Port Hood for a month. Q. You seem to have a prejudice in this regard? — A. No; I have none. Q. I asked you what vessels were seized ? — A. I cannot give you either the names or the number of them. Q. What did you hear about them ? — A. I do not remember just now. Q. How are you now employed ? — A. I have no employment at pres ent. 1^. Where do you reside ? — A. At Pictou. Q. If I understand you aright, when the Americans came in to tish within .three miles of the shore the boat-fishermen made fast to tbe American fishermen ? — A. Yes ; but this was not within but outside of the three-mile limit, and many of the boats thus got good catches. Q. Do the American vessels come within the three-mile limit ?— A.i Yes ; to approach the harbors. Q. But do they do so to fish ? — A. I cannot answer that more thau to say that 1 have never seen them catch any fish inside of the tliree mile limit, though I have heard people say that they come to fish witliiuj three miles of the shore. Q. Did you ever see them do so i — xV. No. I mean by seeing tbeui fishing seeing them haul the fish up. Q. Did you ever so see them in the act of fishing ? — A. I never sa them more than sailing along the bays, and so on. Q. I understand you to say that you have been for forty years eu| gaged in fishing, and that during this time you never saw an America vessel fishing within three miles of the coast ? — A. No. Q. You never did ? — A. I never did. Q. Eituer ou the coast of Nova Scotia, of Prince Edward Island, of Cape Breton ? — A. No. Q. You have seeu them fishing very near the three-mile liiui hnt never insidi saw them lishiu Q. They wert Q. Then all tl icaii vessels wei, tlie Anjerican bi Q- And the j all :'-A. Not tbi Q. Doyouthii jour having see myself. Q- Do you not forty 3ears?--A liuiit to fisb, but J (lid. .^•.^o you bel within the three-ir island, or of Cape lieard men who te same time I have i Q. Do you beliei peop'e say so. Q- i>oyoubeliev Diit I do not say w ti- As far as yoi never have fished jeais ?-A. 1 do „c mm I might ha » say that they did [i- }] hat is your « '»o .think that the I'llKnig about. J bi mild give the A me Ifimeu would have a V. iou are stroiii luile limit to fish ?! kotf on a calm moi (t'- v\ hy ?-_A. Wl Q. What has thai fougside of the ves.* '^^Ii that the vessels /«!. lou mean that pore at Pictou ?_a Q. And you cannot »»'e there and thro '2; Do the America ;."'e?--A. I haves, insaig Wharf, or Gu V. And wherever t f«i them come quitt i;^iaise mackerel ha Q. And then you g, M- Then I uuderstai ft unless the Ameri( 'ore tishery is good ' AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2491 l)ut never inside of it? — A. 1 have seen them inside of it, but I never saw them flshiujj inside of it. Q. They were then merely sailing ? — A. Yes. Q. Then all these British boat-fishermen who made fast to the Amer- ican vessels went outside of the three-mile limit to take advantage of the American bait ? — A. Yes. Q. And the Americans never came within the three- limit at all '! — A. Not that I have seen. Q. Do you think it possible for them to have come inside of it without your having seen them? — A. Yes; I only stick to what I have seen myself. Q. Do you not think it odd that this should be the case during these forty J ears? — A. 1 have heard people say that they came inside the limit to tish, but 1 have never seen them do so ; I do not know as I ever dill. Q. Do you believe that the American fishermen have ever fished within the three-mile limit on the coast of Nova Scotia, of Prince Edward Island, or of Cape Breton? — A. Well, as to the believing part, I have lieard men who tell the truth say that they have done so; but at the same time I have never seen it. Q. Do you believe the persons who said so or not i — A. I have heard people say so. Q. Do you believe them ? — A. I believed one or two men occasionally ; I but I do not say whether this is the case or not. I did not see it. Q. As far as your experience goes, you believe that the Americans I never have fished within three miles of the land during the last forty veais ''i — A. I do not know about that; that is getting it rather tight on L man. I might have an opinion that they did do it, and would not like [to say that they did not do it; but I have not seen them do it. Q. What is your opinion in this regard ? — A. My opinion is, that I do hot think that the intruding of the Americans on our shore is worth Itilking about. I believe this much, that if the people of Nova Scotia |TOuld give the American fishermen a little more freedom, the boat flsh- lamen would have a better chance. Q. You are strongly in favor of the Americans coming inside of the ISaiile limit to fish ?— A. Yes; because then I would not have to row so liar off on a calm morning. Q. Why? — A. When there is no wind, we have to pull the boat off. Q. What has that to do with this question? — A. We want to get llougside of the vessels, where the bait is thrown, and get some of the lisli that the vessels raise. Q. You mean that you cannot get any fish within three miles of the lliore at Pictou ? — A. No. Q. And you cannot get anything there unless the American schooners loiiie there and throw bait out '? — A. Yes — nothing worth speaking of. Q. Do the American schooners come off Pictou and throw out bait, as biile ? — A. I have seen them between East Point, Pictou Island, and krisaig Wharf, or Gulf Wharf. Q. And wherever they throw out bait, you go to fish? — A. I have pii them come quite close to the Three-Mile light, at Pictou Island, pi raise mackerel half way between that point and the Gulf Wharf. Q. And then you got some fish ? — A. Yes. Iq. Then I understand that you wish the Commission to understand lat unless the Americans come there and throw out bait, even the in- lore fishery is good for nothing ? — A. Yes ; and you must not think J m^ 2492 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. If -.•. From wh tlie mackerel ffj I could uiidorsl ',>. You knov^ (}. Are there not say, but I ( bo .sonic for all 'i>. I >o you kii Q- But in the know of one so ] By 31r. D Q. AVho reque iiitrodueod mo tc coijcerniug the i exj)ericnce goes. Q. What were in and offshore. Q- ^'ou were aj Q. ^^ ere you aj e.x|)erience I had Q. How often have fished there knowledge, that !* Q- This includes A. les. Q. AVere you es purpose of catch in Q. Where have about Anticosti, a iii'ouiid this shore. Q. You were alM 'i'- How far did "'•een it and Labn Dor at Mingan, on ; H' What are yoi ^"wmer, and I am H- \V here were ^ ,^oiir coming here a and being well acqi wy coming here, h h?}^ say you 0 , V- >v here did yot mng at anchor on wtcli some mackere si'ore and we would ^».Howfaroflr8h( y. Uiatdoyouc .Jh What distance pe 3 or 4 or 5 miles f AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2495 Q. Wbat have you been doing since 1872 ?— A. Coasting and trading. 0. Yon have not been fishing since then ! — A. Xo, save last year wlu'U r fished with seines for herring. (^. Wliere ?— A. At the Magdalen and Anticosti Islands. (^). AVas your fishing a success or a failure ? — A. The fish were plenti- ful where we were. (,). From what you learned from other vessels, what was the result of the' mackerel fishing last year ? — A. These fish were then very scarce as I could understand. (). You know Halifax pretty well ? — A. \>s. (}, Are there any fishing vessels fitted out in Ualifax ? — A. T could not say, but 1 do not think that many are fitted out here. There may be some for all I know. {}. Do you know of one ? — A. No, not down our way. (}. I>ut in the port of Halifax ? — A. I could not say that for certain I know of one so fitted out. By Mr. Doutre : Q. Who requested you to come hero as a witness ? — A. Mr. ]Mackasey introduced me to these gentlemen, and they asked me a few questions concerning the matter and I gave them my opinion as far as my little cxi)erience goes. Q. What were you asked ? — A. I was asked concerning the fisheries in and off shore. Q. You were asked your opinion about them ? — A. Yes. Q. \\ ere you asked what you yourself had seen ? — A. Yes ; and what experience I had had in fishing. Q. How often have you fished in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A. I have fished there some three or four summers, three to the best of my knowledge, that is for part of the season. Q. This includes the years when you were fishing with your brothers ? — A. i'es. Q. Were you exclusively fishing for cod ? — A. Yes, we went for the purpose of catching cod. Q. Where have you been fishing ? — A. In the bay, to Labrador, over about Anticosti, and down around Sydney and Cape North, and all around this shore. Q. You were always looking for cod ? — A. Y"es. (^ How far did you fish from Anticosti? — A. About 9 miles — be- tween it and Labrador on the banks there. We generally made a har- bor at Mingan, on the Labrador coast, and got our bait there. (J. What are you doing now ? — A. Nothing. I sold my vessel this j summer, and I am building a vessel, which is not yet finished. Q. AVhere were you when the conversation took place which led to jyour coming here as a witness? — A. I came up to Halifax on business, inul being well acquainted with Mr. Mackasey my meeting him led to I my coming here. Q. You say you only fished for mackerel for bait ? — A. Y'"es. Q. Where did you look for that bait ? — A. We often tried for it when llaying at anchor on the ground where we fished for cod, and we would Icatch some mackerel there sometimes ; at other times we would go in- jsliore and we would find some there. Q. How far off shore? — A. From 2 to 3 or 4 or 5 miles. Q. What do you call inshore? — A. Coming close to the land. Q', What distance from it ? — A. I could not exactly say, but it would Ik 3 or 4 or 5 miles from it sometimes. n,'";3 Pk.'WMm sH^^s^^-. 4^ % 2496 AWARD OF THL* FISHERY COMMISSION. wim^t aiip '' ' "i' (^t You call r» miles inalioro ?— A. Yes— from where we would be fish- ing, and we would go in, ui;iy bn half tlio distance betwoou us and tiie Hhore, and try. Q. Have you ever fished on American vessels? — A. No. Q. You say you have seen American vessels fishing ?— A. Yes. Q, How near the shore ?— A. [ should say within the y-mile limit sometimes, and sometimes farther ofl— 8 or 1) miles off. (J. Where did you see the larger number of them fishing ? — A. I have seen a very largo fleet fishing on the ridges between Cape George, in tlie fall of the year when I would be going to the islands. Q. How far from the coast?— A. 8 or 1) miles as near as I can judge, and I have seen them fishing closer to and along the shore. (ij. Did you ever see a school of mackerel ? — A. Yes; and many a one. Q. Where ?— A. In all parts of the bay. Q. Xoar tiio shore or away from the shore ? — A. Yes. Q. What are your brothers doing now ? — A. One of them is fisliiug. (|J. On his own account ? — A. Yes, Q. Which one is this? — A. John. (^. Do you know whether he is fishing for cod or mackerel ?— A. lie is cod-fishing. Q. Is that his usual occupation ? — A. Yes ; he also goes herring fishing. ^ Q. With nets ?— A. Yes. Q. Where did you take the barrel or half a barrel of mackerel which you mention as having taken for bait? — A. Wherever we could find them. Sometimes it was where we were fishing, aud sometimes else where. Q. Where are herring generally taken ? — A. Great quantities of them are taken fit the Magdalen Islands aud at Anticosti, in the spring. Q. How far from the shore? — A. Along the shore, in the harbors. A few acres from the shore? — A. Yes. Have you been paid to come here? — A. No. By Mr. Dana : Q. Did you come from home for the i»urpose of appearing here aud giving evidence ? — A. No. Q. Had you any idea when you left home of coming here as a wit- ness ? — A. No, not in the least. Q. Did you then know, by the way, that the Commission was in ses sion ? — A. No, I did not know the first thing about it until Mr. Mackasey asked me my opinion on the matter ; and that was before he spoke ot the Commission. Q. He asked you your opinion ? — A. Y'es; and what I thought about it from my experience. Q. Mr. Mackasey lives here ? — A. Yes. Q. And what did you tell him ? — A. I told him what I thought of tlie matter, as far as my experience went. Q. And then you came here ? — A. Yes. Q. Has anything been said to you by any one requesting you to tes tify to certain things, whether you believe them to be true or not ?— A. No, not in the least. Q. Nothing of the sort has occurred? — A. No. Q. And if any such thing has been said, you would have left the uian| that said it at once ? — A. Yes ; it would have been useless to have sui anything of the sort to me. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2497 No. 53. Thomas Warren, of Dcor Isle, Me., called on belialt' of the Govern- ment of the United iSttites, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana : Question. Be so kind as to state yonr age. — Answer. Fifty-eight. Q. When did you first ; go fishing no matter as to the exact date T — A. About 1853. Q. '•' the gulf?— A. Yes. Q. i'or what did you go; for mackerel, or cod, or both ? — A. Mackerel. Q. The mackerel was rather a new thing then in the gulf ? — A. Com- paratively; yes. Q. IIow long were you engaged in fishing ? — A. That season ? (j. No ; I didn't mean that season, but how many seasons did you go ?— A. I went five years in succession. Q. Into the gulf ?— A. Yes. Q. Your last trip was in '37 or '38 as a fisherman 1 — A. '37. Q. Where did you catch fish then ? 1 don't mean the place, but whether inshore or ofif shore ? — A. Do you refer to the first year ? Q, To the first five years. You spoke of having been there from '33 to '37 ? — A. I was there five years. Q. Without going into details, did you catch the fish you caught inshore or off shore, and in what proportion ? — A. It is a long time ago. 1 only speak from memory. In 1833 I was in a schooner named the Eagle. Q. That is so long ago that we don't care much about the names, but only whether you can tell from memory whether those five years you caught off shore or inshore ? — A. In 1833 I was there for mackerel. Q. Can you tell how it was these five years, or, if you prefer, take each year ? — A. Well, three of the five years I was there for codfish. Q. Those were caught in deep water ?— A. Always. Q. Two years you were for mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. These two years, where did you catch ? — A. In 1833 we got them all off shore. In 1837, the last year I was there, we got 23 barrels out of our trip very near St. Peter's, within three miles of the shore. Q. You have no doubt they were within three miles of the shore ? — A. I am clearly of the opinion that they were within three miles. Q. What was your whole trip? — A. I don't recollect, perhaps 200 barrels. The vessel was small. Q. Of those about 23 barrels were taken within three miles. After 1837 what did you do ?— A. I never went a fishing voyage after '37. I retired from fishing and went into the fitting business. Q. That is, fitting fishermen ?— A. Yes. Q. How long were you engaged in that business ?— A. About twenty- I eight years, if I recollect aright. Q. You continued in that business until you were appointed inspector I or afterwards? — A. My being appointed inspector did not interrupt my 1 fishing business. Q. When did you give up your business as an outfitter ? — A. In 1874. Q. Then from the time you gave up fishing, 1837 to 1874, you were leiigaged as outfitter of vessels ? — A. Very slightly for the first four or |tive years. Q. After that moi'e largely. Am I right ? — A. Yes. Q. How many years were you inspector in the State of Maine ? — A. I jwas appointed in 18G2 and held office until '09. 157 F •t, 1'' <,• j>..:' . 1';^7 1. IS' ■ i '. iiHi rJOB'til '^A^^i^'^ ^m m^ *•"•■■ fc« 2498 AWARD OF THE FISiIP]RV COMMISSION. Q. Seven or eight years ? — A. Seven years. (}. Did your duties as inspector of lisli generally carry yon over tiii- hshinpf ports of the St."te, and to wliat extent '! — A. Yes ; I was in every fishing town once a y«ar, and wlien coini)laints came, 1 was as often as they came. Q, Wiiat is the largest nnndier of vessels yon lifted for yourself any one year ? — A. In istJL', if I recollec^t aright. 1 fitted out twenty-two sail of nia(!kerel for the Bay Chalenrs, or St. Lawrence rather. (We call it the Uay Chr.'ieur.) Q. llow i.Mijy mackerel-men were fitted out from vour place, Deer Isle, in lormer years — say irom '00 to '(iL' t — A. In l.SOi* we had the largest nnniher in tlie bar. Q. How many had yon then ? — A. 4r» to 4S. ii. How many are there now* — A. Well, I don't know that I (;an an- swer that question. From our town we have had about tivein the hay. Q. Is the number of vessels in other fisheries about the same? — A, No ; it has depreciated. There is not a quarter part of them. Q. When you had forty-five vessels, or from that to forty-eight, in 1802, wliat proi)ortion of them went into the bay? — A. Nearly all. Q. This year you have live in the bay ? — A. Yes. Q. The year before, or the year before that, how was it? — A. Las^ year, for instance. Q. How many were in the bay ? — A. As near as I can recollect, not one. (). Five tried this year ? With what success, as they have been hoard from .' — A. Well, they have all lost money. Q. Are you well ac(iuainted with Castine ? — A. I am. Q. Is that far from you ? — A. It is about lifteen miles to the nortli. Q. Has Castine engaged much in mackerel or cod ' — A. It is largviv engaged in cod, but of late years they have not done n.uich in any Uiml of fish. Q. How many fishermen do you suppose are litted from Castiiio now ? — A. Not a mackereler. Q. Take Camden ; how many did they use to have and how tnaiiy Lave they now ? — A. Camden has always been a small Hshing-placi', About eight vessels, if 1 recollect. Q. Are there any now ? — A. Y'es, there are, but I guess there are only three now, Q. Are tin y in the bay .' — A. No, none in the bay. (^>. Take Xorth Uaven.' — A. Well, [ guess they have liad about to;! there. (}. Any there now? — A. Notk-. Q. EastjiDit; how many did tlie> use to have.' — A. When I fust wen' there in ISOU lliey had eight mackerelers. Q, Are there any now in the bay ? — A. None — nowhere. Q. I\ow t!iOse \arious places in which the nunil)ei' of vessels tiiat] have gone in the bay have diininislied to nothing, what are their vi'v s* l.s doini now, wlierc tin Tlie\ an.' till own them .' — A. Fisliing on the Aimii divii.ed bet wee. i semiMg on the shore and ('mil c.i.n shore, lishing. *(}, That leads me to ask you as to the condition of tin* mackerel-catrii ing on the ,slu)res of iMaine. J low is it, and !io\v how has it been fo' tin last eight or ten ycius ? — A. I dow't know that I understand Q. The catch of niaclierel ou the shores of Maine; has it increased - diininislied .' — A. It has decreased iiis year. (^ I don't mean this year particularly, but take th.e general riui oi tci) years piijj witli wJiat it 1 •Tcl put lip (), "iiN. J only ; 'i». I low is i lisllillggfouiKi all (lie maclce coast of Majrit 'i*. Now iitci in rile hay ,\ Q- niciiidiiif pnipoition of a is taken on f|,Q '>'. Yi^s; whf ^h Have you tlicaiiioimfc'tak iiiiiclcerel paeke ^*• Von shoDi ;hi(I otherwise.- SJM'(!tOr 1 ^)- I mean to i olis.Tver of the i ■''i'-during- that percent, of all tl '■•^^'"'(^ I sli„„l,l 'v'- Since that i ;iliiiosr. J':verytl] Q- You mean i <.>• Then what f'*^"' -I do;;'t ni .voars, /ix-e \-(.a,\s, iNn.'^A. Wolj/f n'JKje, do you ? V l{- ;)'"' Pi-aetie; '.'■ ilieyliaveei •\' "H-y h'ive o-on ,,.'/• ^.^''"'" yoii „ \\liari.sM,,>|,„„t^^ "' file (reorges J '"■''"fy "liles from ""' way from Tort /i». Tiion yoii woi '''"•"f Mio limit; of '•*; \^ f'';it bu.iine ^'""1 'l^'al this v,.,.i. , '>*• '!"t within tin !?"'■«« ir has been. '^. ^owfrom ],S,j( •1. I IS, „!'*■ '^""■"^.' that t ""'"youhadfn-J,, P'7"'''f''^"'toftliei ;: "" ^''""t^'d States P| i'uvrence until ai ''• ^^^^", ^vasit an AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2499 ten Ncars past. Flow is the niackerol business of the coiist compared witli whiit. it used to bef — A. My iini)ression is tiiere was as many mack- ,.it'l put up oij the coast of Maine hist year, US70, perhaps as there ever wiis. I only s])ealv from n^colicetion. 1 kiu)w they w-"re very plenty. (^». How is it as to summer-ti.sliinH grouudKS ' Wiu^re are the summer- lishiiiii' grounds ^ — A. For mackerel .' 1 siiouhl tinnk tiire(^foiirtlts of all the mack«'rel there is taken in the United States is taken on the coast of Maine. (J. N(»w include in that the mackerel which are taken by your vessels ill the bay. — .\. Wliat do you say ? (,). [iiciiulinft- the mackerel taken l>y your vessels in the bay, what piuportion of all tlie mackerel taken, wiicther in the bay or on the coast, is taken on the American coast ? — A. What pait of tliem ? (}. Yes; what proi»ortion of the whole f — A. 1 don't kiu)w. (^), Have you any means of forming a jtidg'ment? — A. No; but I think tlic amount taken in the j^idf is very small indeed compared with the iiiiickcrel packed in the States. (). Von should know. You have had a long experience as insi)ector iui(l otlierwise. — A. Do you speak of tliat period for which I was in- spector ? i). I mean to iiu'lu tlie whole luniod while you were inspector or an ohsi'vver of the matter as a meri'liant. — A. I should think from '013 to "(iil — (luring that i)eriod of time I should think tisere was more than 50 pel cent, of all the mackerel taken was taken in the Gulf of Saint Law- R'lice. 1 shoidd thiidv so. (). Since that time how has it been ? — A. It is all run down to a point almost. Everything has Iu\mi taken this way. (), You mean in .\laine ! — A. ^Maine and Massachusetts. Q. Then what do you say of the bayhshing now, its present condi- tion ? 1 d(;;i't mean Just to-day, but histi>rically, taking the last ten u'lu's, hve years, three years, two years, and so on. What (!o:idition is it in .' — A. Well, 1 should tay it was worthless. You mean the St. L.iw- i('ii<'<>, do you ? Well, I should say it was worthless, (}. And practically the |)e.ople have so tr- .ited it .' — A. They have. (}. They have either gone out jf the fishing or gone to other places .' — A, 'fhey h'ivi^ gone seining (tu our shores. (^V. When you seine on the American shores, how far do you go? Wiiut is the limit of your seining '. — A. N^^'ll, our folks rarely go outside ol the (leorges. In fact, tlu\v don't go beyoml that r.t all. Perhaps twenty miles from the shore would be, the most common ground. All the w.'iy from Tortland down to .Mount Desert Rock. (,>. Then you would say Ix'tween (i-eorges and .Mount Desert Rock was aluiut the limit of your seining'^ — A. Yes. ',>. Is that l)u.'.iness an inctreasing business? — A. It has depreciated a :immI di.'al this year. (^). iUit within the last ten years it has been increasing? — A. Yes, I liiii'ss it lias been. I guess thes(^ last leu years it has be(!n. <^ Now ti'<)m 18,31 to 180!) you recollect was the Reciprocity Treaty .' — I A. Vfs. <,>. Daring tha.t time you had free scope ffshing the gulf. You jtishcd without respect to the three mile line. Now, during that time hlien you had free access to the coast, was there any ditference in the |;i"ifiMl result of t\w lisiieries ? Was it any more favorable to the people 'I tlie United States then ? — A, Well, the lishing wa.s very good in the 1^:. L uvrence until about the year 18(18. t>>. Well, was it any more favoral)le.' Was tliei-^ au> dilference that r^^Jlll .J' 2500 AWARD JF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 'jdy ■>■"' you observed between the fishing at the time you had liberty to fish without respect to the three-mile limit and the time when there was au obstruction? — A. Yes, sir. Since 1 was quite young and went there myself in 1S37 I have always thought it au advantage to us, the flshiug within three miles. Q. How did that compare in your opinion with the advantage of hav- ing duties laid u])on British tish coming into your markets? — A. I should say, taking the duties into consideration, reciprocity was ahvays against us. Q. ¥ow you know the opiuiori of the fishing peo^jle in Maine. It has been your duty to examine and go to every town once a year. What was the general opinion you found among the fishermen and fish-deal- ers as to the benefit they got from the Keciprocity Treaty as flshernieii, balancing the j)rivilege of fishing inshore against the removal of the duties ?— A. Well, sir, I have spent a good deal of time, especially when I was inspector for the State, in trying to get at public opinion in those fishing towns. I have consulted a great many captains and owners of vessels. From 18G0 to '63, '04, '65, and ^GG there was not a great deal said about it, because the mackerel were plenty in the Gulf ci St. Law- rence ; but so far as I know ior several years before the treaty was re- pealed they were very glad to see the time coming that we should be placed back where we were under the Treaty of 1818. The feeling was strongly against reciprocity. Q. That is with reference to the fishery clauses of the treaty ? — A. Yes; in reference to fish. I didn't refer to anything else. Q. Do you say that from your observations and the experience you have had that there was a strong opinion among the people of Maine engaged in the fisheries ? — A. Yes. Q. They preferred to go back to the arrangement by which they were excluded from the inshore grounds and had power to impose duties on British fish ?— A. Yes. Q. W^ell, from your whole experience down to within the last lew years, is there much value in your judgment in the inshore fisheries, that is, within three miles? — A. I think there is a value. Q. I asked if there was much ? — A. Xo ; I don't think it is great ; but I think there is a value in the inshore fisheries. Q. It is Jiore for the boats than for vessels, is it not! How is that?— A. 1 don't know anything about boats We only go there in vessels from 50 to 100 tons. There is a value and a fear. We were very glad our way when we had the privilege of buying licenses of the Eiiglisb folks. Q. You are probably looking to a different point from that to wbick I directed you, but you may go on with reference to the apprehensions you used to have when it was not permitted to you to go within. What were they? — A. Well, there were a great manj' captains that had no interest in the vessels, and they, would seem to take risks that they ought not of fishing inshore. Somehow they seemed to have an impression that it was no harm to catch fish inshore if they were not caught. Q. Now, what other rea.sons intiuenced you besides the fear that the captains would actually go inshore '. — A. Well, it was a great point to determine when a vessel was within three miles. There was nothing to indicate it, and it was a matter of judgment between the American ves- sels and the cruisers. The vessels seemed to be apprehensive that they would be taken oil three, four, five, or six utiles. Q. Now, fiom your experience, is it, or is it not, didlcult to determine from a vessel, especially when the shore is high, what distance you are off?-A. I thir (iistanoe from >< (l Xow fron and those fltte have trouble fn ory serves me r Q- I>o you ki ence in the trt dogroa of sevei and those of tin not in the bay. Of late years th( officers came the aboard and tell i witli them, and .' Q. Uow was i were very arhlfci Q. Wero th.rt sa,\. 1 8a w two vi :er ve>^el.s, I tliii eally at that tin >aw the vesMi'ls ti a\v the vessels taken. They wore within three miles. <}. So far as position is (loncerned, the cutters were not in fault, but (lid you know anything about the conduct of tlir officers when they Itnanled them ? — A. No: we were under sail, trying to get out of the way iit the cutters. (^». What was done, niid what the people complaiTied of, you were uot witiu'ss of? — A. No. (^). Now [ want to ask you, going back to the year 1837, was there any other difficidty with refer(!uce to the right to draw the lines from headland to headland ? I don't ask you whether you had this experi- ence yourself? — A. AVcll, I heard that matter freely discussed among the American fishermen, but 1 knew nothing of it. Q. You had no experience of it ? — A. No. Q. But you heard it discussed ? — A. Yes. Q. As a .juostion between them and the cutters ? — A. No, not to ray knowledge. 1 have only been aboard vessels when they were telling about this, that, and the other thing being wrong, about the drawing of these lines from the headlands, r/cl about the cutters exacting things that they ought uot. Q. Fc/r what reason was it, when the licenses were at a ow fee, that Tour people took them?— A. For fear they would be seized. They knew, of course, that the three-mile limit, as it was understood, was au iiulelinite thing; it created a fear on the part of the captains that they might be innocently taken. Then again, as I have said, there were I times when they were satisfied that the inside fisheries were valuable. Q. So it was partly the value of the privilege of being able to lish [where they liked, and partly the feai of being taken when they ought I not to be ? — A. Y''es. Q. Have you made any inquiries specifically as to the captures of I those vessels and the rules laid down ? — A. I have heard a great deal :il)OUt it. Q. You have no statistics ? — A. No. By ]Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You were speaking of the lines drawn from hepdland to headland; hliut years did you refer to ? — A. I referred particularly to the year ^w- ^.l%4.A "^J? £."' » t - ^ tfm^^-, !tf^;;^ ^ *"^*-»^^ m0% Si 1, . g^Wf 2502 AWAKD OF THK FISHERY COMMISSION. m 1837, ami so in the year 1833, the two years I was mackeielflsliiiij,' in tlie jjulf. Q. Well, you were not referring to any other years except those ? — A. Ko, I never was there. i}. And you were only speaking of those years '. — A. Yes, that is, in regard to tlie headland (juestion. i}. JJnt you spoke ol' the cutters being very exacting ? — A. Well, of course, 1 only s[)oke of what 1 heard aboard those vessels. 1 knew nothing about it. Q. Vou were just merely speaking of something you heard in 1837. A. Yes. Q. How often did yon hear it that year? — A. Well, I was down tiuri' quite late in the fall, and it was a subject of constant conversation on board our Ameri(;an vessels. Q. Don't you think you are mistaken ? — A. About what .' Q. How many cutters were there .' — A. Three I think. Q. Did you ever see any cutter there that year ? — A. I saw tliciii take those two Cape Ann vessels. I think it was 1837. I may be mis- taken as to the year. Q. Y'ou only saw one. Yes. Q. How many did you say yon saw f — A. T saw three of them, I think it was, cruising in the bay that fall 1 was there last time. Q. Were they exacting to you ? — A. No. (i. Thry didn't annoy you '. — A. No. (}. Y'( u didn't lish inshore at all?— A. Y'es, we did. I caught — that is, the vessel I was in — 23 barrels. (}. l>ut you caught those in one day ? — A. Y'es, one morning beloii' breakfast. Q. All the rest you caught outside ? — A. Y'es. i}. You never caught any excei)t the l.'3 barrels of mackerel in shore ? — A. Tliat is all ever when J was engaged in the bay. Q. You caught these in the mornmg before breakfast? — A. Y^'S. (^. You ne\er tried to fish inshore any otlier time. You fished ult shore every otner time except that .' — A. 1 think so. . "Was there a cutter in sight when you caught these ? — A. No, .sir, If theie had been we would not have been likelj- to catch them. Q. You said you had an id(»a it was right ' — A. 1 was only speakiiij; of the opinions of the cai)tain's. Q. That was the only time you ran any risk ? — A. Y'es. We went oil St. Peter's early in the morning and got becalmed. Q. That is the oidv time vou run anv risk '! — A. Y\'s. i}. Where was that ''—A. Right off ist. Peter's. Q. That was pretty good lishing, Y'"ou had a pretty good time .'—A, Y'es ; that is the best lishing I ever saw in my life aboard a vessel. Q. One would wonder why you didn't try it again f — A. ^Ve didn't tn I it then. We were coming out of harbor and got becalmed, and the lislil came up all around us solid, ajjparently, and just as soon as wim breezed u^) the lish all left us; but during this tiuie we had 23 baiivl^ Q. Well, .you never tried it again? — A. I don't recollect that we evei| tried it again. Q. The cutter never troubled or boarded you any time whatever .'— A.j No. Q. From what experience you have had, your own per.sonalexperioiicf.j the best lishing is inside ? — A. Within three miles.' Q. Certainly.— A. Well, no. Q. Y'on never saw anything better than that catch of 23 barrels tori tliiit morning. (^». Ami you Air, Tres(;o'j lUr. AYeatiiii .stand. /.>. Then, win of at. Lawrence No i)ra(!tical kii, trii)rocity Treal «lo\vii to that, agi Q- 1 suppo.se 1 iiinl nitli Air. Vyi Q- 1 am a.skii'ig "iti'i'ivst in this (, liave rcHlIy forgot Q. Yod your.seli any value, 1 tliiul, Viiliie. ^>. I.'ow much \ Know any distinct li.slierie.s. Q. Now, yon au ->him«, having coll "Statistics, I siipnos !">"• J hail a - ^Vhat I said \ yoii had collected si ""^''1 !n;quainted wit "as considered in ( y<'"i^ that the insh, •^o'ar.asl know, alt ^>f 'Jliune, I ,,robal,l 'I'Hl towns, from P,," "l»t'"'"«or onr mm l"'<'<-'it.v Treaty. Ji- What I want i -ate was oj)pose(l /^f*"""» tliat the in.H ["A little use to yon ' •'"" J-ecllect haVin ■;/'teiied at this thi V. ion certainly I* AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2503 tilt' timo, and that is the ouly time you tried ? — A. We were surrounded liy hundreds of vessels. '(,). JJut, lookinfif to your own personal experienee, the best fishing there that you knew was within three miles .' — A. Yes ; well, I never saw -3 barrels caught, that I recollect, so quickly as we caught theitt that,, morning. (,). And you never tried it any other time? (No answer.) iMr. TilES("OT. Did he understand your question ? Ml. AVeatiierbe. Bid you understand . -A. Yes; 1 believe I under- str.nd. (). Then, with regard to the value of the inshore fisheries in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, you have no personal knowledge later than 1837 '. — A. Xo i)ractical knowledge. (^>. IJut since that 1 understood you to say you had acqidred knowl- I'diiv by procuring inl'ormation t — A. I commenced when 1 was done li.siiing to lit out vessels. i). Have you ever acquired any knowledge from others with regard t(i the value of the inshore lisheries since 1837? — A. 1 have invariably consulted all my captains. (). You i'e(!ollect when the agitation was going on in regard to the liiciprocity Treaty in 1852 in your kState ? — A. Yes; in 1851. We were, down to that, against it. Q. 1 sup|)ose you are acquainted with Senator ITamlin ? — A. Yes; luul with Mr. Tyke, too. lie voted against it. I circulated a petition. Q. ] am asking you with reference to Senator Jlandin. He took au interest in this (juestion of the lisheries, did he not? — A. Yes; but I have really forgotten about it. (^). You yourself, in 1851', did not consider the lisheries of the giilf of any value, 1 think ? — A. Ju IHo'J ! 1 always considered them of some valnt. Q. l!ow much value? In 1852-51, for instance. — A. Well, I don't know any distinction, since 1 went tishing, in the value of the inshore lisheries. Q. In'ow, you are here as officer of the government in the State ot MaiuM, ha\ ing collected statistics, atid you have brought a book full of statistics, 1 suppose ? — A, Y''ou said I came on i)urpose for this examina- tion. 1 had a atch, and a very few moments after I got the dispatcli I I'anie uni>rei>ared. Q. \Vliat I said was that j'ou had collected statistics. It was knowa yon had collected statistics. It was known you were a man likely to bo wi'll acquainted with tiie subject. Now, 1 want to ask you wlietlier it was considered in the State oi' Elaine in 1852, 1853, 1854, or any of those years, that the inshore lisher'.es were of a great deal of value ? — A. Well, so tar as 1 know, altlioujih I had not at that time traveled over the State of Elaine, I probably got hold of the opinion of our tishing (iommunities ami towns, from Portsmouth to East i)ort, and they were opposed to the opening ol our markets to foreign lish, or, in other words to the Keci- l)roeity Treaty. Q. What I want to get at is this, whether the general feeling in that Slate was ojtposed to it, or whether the people were generally of the opinion that the inshore lisheries of the Gulf of St. Lawrence were of very little use to you. Tell us that? — A So far as I know ever since can recollect having anything to do in Jay Chaleurs they always were - iiened at this threennle restiii-tioii. (,». You certainly understaua uiy (piestion. Were your lisUermau of MA M ^ j^m- v«*«<*. If t y "-■ .,jfc >*»; ^■■^ifS? '0 .^.'^f T% C6 JPSt it m h>- IS"'^ i« " i'i' t'M 2504 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■f'i' ':i-S; the opinion that tho tliree-raile inshore fisheries of the gulf were of use to them or not ? — A. I think they considered them of considerable vahie. Q. You thinli they did ?— A. Yes. Q. Did that opinion continue, or, if not, when did the opinion change? — A. 1 don't know that that opinion has cA'er changed. Q. Let nie read you just a few lines from the remarks of Senator Ham- lin. I suppose you aie a supporter of his, that you have been, and are at this time '? — A. Yes. Q. He is a very able man ? — A. He is said to be. Q. After describing the magnitude and importance of the American fisheries " as the great fountains of commercial prosperity and naval power," he declared that " if American tisherman were kept out of tiiese inshore waters, the immense amount of i)roperty thus invested would become useless, and leave them in want and beggary, or in prison in foreign jails." — A. That was iu 1852. That was from headland to head- land. Q. Xow my impression was that they were discussing the question Irrespective of the headland tjuestion. They were discussing the ques- tion whether the tish were not caught within three miles of the shore. Mr. Dana. It may save you the trouble of examining if I state the known fact which cannot affect the witness' mind, that that speecli was made while Great Britain claimed the whole liay of Fuudy an(l all these bays. Mr. Weathebbe. He was arguing in favor of reciprocity. (To tiie witness.) Are you acquainted with Mr. Scudder, of Massachusetts .'— A. No. Q. Mr. Scudder, of Massachusetts, said, referring to the mackerel : These tish are taken in the waters nearer to the coast than the codfish are. A con- siderable portion — from one- third to one-half — are taken on the coasts and in the bays and gnlfs of the British jirovinces. The inhabitants of the provinces take many of them in boats and with seines. The boat and seine iishery is the more successful and pro- fitable, and would be pursued by our fishermen were it not tor the stipulations of the Convention of 1818, between the United States and Great Britain, by which it is con- tended that all the fisheries within +hree miles of the coast, with few unimportant cx- cejitions, are secured to the pro^ inces alone. Mr. Tuck, of New Hampshire, said: This inshore fishery, which we have renounced, is of great value, and extremely important to American fishermen. From the first of September to the close of the season, the mackerel run near the shore, and it is next to impossible for our vessels to obtain fiires ■without taking tish within the prohibited limits. The truth is, our fishermen need absolutely and must have the thousands of miles of shore fishery which they have re- nounced, or they must always do an uncert.iin business. If our mackerel men are pro- liibited from going within three miles of the shore, and are forcibly kept away (and nothing but force will do it), then they may as well gi fe up their business first as lust, It will be always uncertain. That was correct at that time ? — A. No ; Mr. Tuck never went fishing there. Q. I don't suppose Senator Hamlin did either? — A. No. Q. Were these opinions correct or not ? — A. I guess not. Q. They didn't represent the popular view ?— A. I guess they were discussing the agitated question of the line from headland to headland. Q. I will have to read it again. " The truth is, our iisb»rmen need absolutely and must have the thous. .ids of aiiles of inshore fishery which they have renounced, or they must always do an uncertain business."'— A. I understand perfectly. The idea of Mr. Vuck is that, because ves- sels are excluded from three miles, it must make the business uncertain. Q. Do you think it was a profitable business outside in the gulf at that time, if they were excluc^ed from wichln three milps ? — A. It was a profitable business, [i was so iu IH.'JS, and it continued so until 1808. Q. If the American fi.shermen had Ijeen exclutled by force, rigidly, AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2505 from \vitbin three miles of the shore, it wonhl have been a profitable biisiiu'ss from ISol to 1868 f — A. Yes; the mackerel have been drop- piny off since as early as 1866. Since the period I have mentioned it bas'^iiot been profitable anywhere. Q. AVas that true at that time — that which I have road ? — A. I guess it wants to be qualified some. {}. Nobody seems to have controverted it in Congress? — A. If that refers strictly to within three miles of the shore, they attach more con- se"iuence to that threeuiile restriction than the fishermen generally do. {}. You said Senator Hamlin was a i>opular man. Didn't he repre- sent the fishermen's views at that time ? — A. I suppose he thought he was. (,). Are you able to state that he did not ? — A. What do you say ? (^). What great authority can you give us now that took a ditferent view of the case at that time ? — A. 1 say he attaches a greater conse- quence to it than the fishermen generally. {}. (rive Tue the name of any man of eminence. — A. I should very luucli rather 'lave an opinion on that question from practical mackerel- iiien than from the honorable Hannibal Hamlin. Q. Can you give me the opinion of practical mackerel-men obtained attiiattime? — A. I have seen them since I came to Halifax. I have conversed with a gre'-^t many that know more about the fisheries than ever lie did. (}. Your own experience that morning exactly coincides with Senator Ilaniliu's views f — A. Yes. Q. Well, now I ask you if you can give me the name of any practical mackerel-man who understood the question in ISoU, and who would (litter from Senator Hamlin ? — A. I recollect that there was that con- troversy, since you have brought it up, but it has left my mind, and perbaps 1 never should have thought of it unless you had brought it up. Q. What was the feeling of your best fishermen ? — A. I am unable to say. Q. But what their feelings are now, that we claim money, you are able to say ? — A. Are you claiming money ; is that so ? Q. You know that, don't you ? — A. VVell, I have heard something 1 about money compensation, but I didn't know you were sincere in it, 1 really. Q. You think this is a farce 1 — A. I believe every word you say. Q. i ask you whether you were not aware that the proceedings under I which you were produced here were in consequence of a claim on the {part of Great Britain for money? — A. Well, I recollect it has been [talked of that you claimed money. Q. Did you know you were brought as a witness to give evidence to Iresist it ? — A. I know I came here to testify what I knew of the fishing |in the bay. Q. Did you know that the parties who brought you here were resist- [iug a claim for money ? — A. No; I did not. Q. Do you know the provisions of the Washington Treaty with regard io the fisheries? — A. Well, the main part of the Washington Treaty I pppose I do know. I know we have a right of Ashing inshore. Is not pat correct ? (}. Certainly. — A. And I thought that the Englishmen thought the Ireetishing on our coast was insufficient to compensate you for our privi- lege of fishing inshore, and you wanted so much money on top of that. 1 never knew there was any sum or anything of that kind. ■ ',j|P^' M^^'r ^fi ^'.r ,:t^- "MM. - 'm '■^ ' L ' ^fn^ 2506 AWAUD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I"' s .»t 'I Q. You (lid uiuU'rstaiul the (luestioii ? — A. I umlerstood at the tiini'it passed, but how niiiiiy years is it siuce it passed ? Q. Well, never uimd. What did you supi»ose this Commission was Ibrf — A. 1 haven't thought of it for years. (}. You didn't know we were trying that very question now ? — A, I did. (}. You fjave your evidence with that knowledj^e? — A. Yes. Q. You think now that the value of the insiiore tisliery has ehanged .'— A. No; 1 havi^ the sanu> opinion that I have always had. I have ^saiil all through that they were valuable to us. Q. Now with regard to the right of carrying our Hsh free into tlie United States, I suppose you think that is of no advantage to your fislui. men, that provision of the treaty '! — A. I have no idea it is any advantai^i! to our side of tjie house. Q. It is a disadvantage, isn't it ? — A. Y'es; it is against us. Q. JJe kind enough to explain how ? — A. Well, all these things scorn to me to be regulated by suiti»ly and demand. If there is 1{)0,0(>U Imi- rels of mackerel hove into our market on top of what we produce the tendency is to depreciate i)rices. Q. If this provision of the treaty increases the supply of mackerel in the United States market it will bring down the price offish ? — A. State that again. ((^'uestion repeated.) — A. I think it would have that tendency. Q. That is the reason you think it is no advantage to your fl.sliei men to have the privilege of fishing inside f — A. No; putting both iiio visious of the treaty together, it is no advantage, because the sui)ply \i increased and the prices are depreciated. Q. You will admit this, that it is an advantage to the consumers In bringing down the i)rice .' Y'^ou will admit that 1 — A. Y'es. Q. Then in point of fact it gives you cheap tish? — A. The tendency i> to cheapen them. Q. For the people of the United States 1 — A. Y'es. No. 54. WiLFORD J. FisiiER, of Eastport, Me., called on behalf of the (lov ernmeut of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot : Question. Of what place are you a native ? — Answer. Grand Maua Q. How old are you ? — A. Fifty -six. Q. Where do you live now ? — A. At Eastport, Me. Q. How old were you when you moved to Eastp';)rt *? — A. I could uui tell you Avithout thinking. Q. Y'ou are fifty six years old now. IIow long have you lived at| Eastport?— A. Since 1845. Q. What is your present occupation at Eastjwrl ? — A. T am agent ot an express company, and am doing a general comuissiou business. Q. JIow long have you been doing that? — A. r,)r the last six ycais^ Q. Do you recollect how old you were when yon left Grand ^laiiai and went to Eastport? — A. I left Grand Mauan when I w^as tweuty-tni years of age. Q. While you lived on Grand Manan what was your occupation ?—. My father kept an extensive lishing establishment and was litting oi fisliiug vessels. I worked with him until I was twentyoue or tweuti two years of age. (}. I)cs(;rih( ill wiiile assis titfiiiLioiit tish I gut (»l(l enoii '.'■ Vou well <,>. .\i)()Mt \v| A. I used fo g( and morning h of tlie hiisiiies ^>- As I undi <'sl;il>)isliineiit ( of t lie whole dc (iieiii fo maiket . ^'. A\'ell, aftt for two years. Q- ^^'ila^ do ^ a /isliermaii .' \ (}• Your fatiic Q. After that into I)ii.sines.s. Q. A\'liat .sort aud general biisi o>.,l ..II I.;. 1 ""'■ III! hiikIm ()1 Q. How long (i ^'- ^Vliat did V and weir tj.shed h make lieniiitr oil. ;'agc(l ill tl)(. aiari fi'. JIow long (li ''"'"'v; I made no ( "licre about that '.'• ^ Veil, after y von i-A. Yes. Q- "^ou have l)e '**• ^Vhat busine ;:"'""'««'ou busin( J-'O.StOII. 9- ^^s r understi Jo'iig a weir busii/ 'i'- ^^ hat have y '{• J;>o you work V>. iou have bee ""•«' the last six ve '^i- the privilege, an^ '>y''^i- In other c ,„„, ^' ''"tl give I I Q- ifownian.v wc ''"e «e didn't build h'f of the smokec \'ell, alter that what did you do? — A. After that I went to sea for two years. (}. What do you mean when you say yon went to sea ; did you go as a tisiierman .' — A, No; I went in a merchant vrssel. Q. Your father's vessel ? — A. Xo ; in an Atiieri«'iin vessel. (). After that ? — A. After that 1 brought u^i in Kasti)ort and went lUlu business. (). What sort of business at Kastport ? — A. J-'itting out (Isliermen and general business, curing lish, and trading in West India produce, and iill kinds of business done by oftr general stores. (). How long did that continue? — A. 1.") years. (^>. What did you do after that ? — A. 1 went to Grand Manan again and weirfished for 8 or 10 years. About that time 1 commen(!ed to make herring oil. I had weirs at (Jrand Manan, and went over and en- ;;a^vd in tlu! manufacture of herring oil and smoking herring. (^». How long did you remain at Grand ^lanan ? — A. 8 or 9 years, I tliiidc ; I made no calculation and should not like to state exactly. Some- where about that time. (}. Well, after you went to Grand IManan did you return to East- jiort .' — A. Yes. (}. Von have been ever since at l^astporl ? — A. .'—A Yes. Express and general hake-sounds for parties in (^>. What business iiave you been in since loiiiiiiissiou business. 1 have been buying liostoii. Q. As I understood, when you went back to Grand Manan you were tiding a weir business '. — \. Yes, sir. Q. What have you done with them ? — A. I have them still. if. Do you work them yourself? — A. Xo; I rent them. Q. You have been renting them ever since? — A. I have been renting tlii'iji the last six years. Sometimes I rent them for an annual payment lor the privilege, and some of the weirs 1 rent on a tifth, building the weirs myself. In other cases I make a trade with them to build the weirs for so much, aud give me so much net proceeds. 1 make the best trade I m\. (}. How many weirs are you interested in? — A. Three large weirs. Oue we didn't build this year. Only two were built this year, on ac- count of the smoked herring being very low. Q. Are you still emidoyed in smoking herring aud curing them ? — A, Yes ; in the way I have stated. Q. 1 want you to explain to the Commission the character of the biisi- jiie.ss done at the weirs. What force have you employed there ? — A. [Well, the weirs are built in the eddies, places where tli,e berriug fre- (luetit. They are caught iu the weirs. The weirs are built so that the !^:^^ ■^■: ■ilr tM.'^r; .. . ... -"^ ■ ,w^jt ■ rir. 5 fMm i m iw 'J': 2508 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ih Vt tide never le.avcs tlieni. We are obliged to do that so as not to destroy the herring, to have none die in the weirs. They have a largo giite which takes boats 12 feet wide find we take them in masts and all. We can open it twelve feet wide the whole height of the weir so that tbo boat comes in withont stepping the masts. We seine the herring that are in the weir and put them in the boats, then take them ashore and wash them out, scale them and string them on sticks and put them in the smoke-house, smoke them and box them. After being boxed we sell them wherever wo can get most money for them. Q. What force have you employed in those weirs '! — A. When I fished there myself I had five to twelve men according to the season. Some months we are obliged to employ more men than others. Q. On each weir? — A. No ; that would be what wo call a gang. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. How many men are required to manage one weir ? — A. Twelve men to manage one weir. Q. It would take twelve men? — A. Yesj that would bo for two or three uiouths; that is all. By Mr. Trescot : Q. What months ? — A. October has usually been the best month for the last two years. Six or eight years ago we used to catch them oven earlier in the season. Sometimes* we got a heavy haul of herring ia April. Last year we got a very heavy catch in April. Q. Then it comes in the fall again? — A. Yes; they come towards fall again. They vary with the seasons on account of the weather or some other cause we can't control. They are about sure to come within a month or six weeks. Q. Can you tell the Commissioners what is the proportion, as far as catching herring is concerned, in Grand Mauan of the weir fishery to the sea fishery ? Could you form any idea at all ? — A. I don't know that I understand the question. You mean the proportion of herring caught in weir to the proportion caught in nets ? Q. Yes ; at sea in nets and boats. Mr. Thomson. What do you mean by at sea ? Mr. Trescot. I mean the proportion caught in weirs as compared with those not so caught. I don't care whether inshore or out. — A. There is none of the class we catch in weirs but very few that are caught in boats. The herring we smoke are smaller than these caught in nets and boats. Q. Then the smoked herring are essentially from weirfi-shing?— A.j Yes; exclusively so, except as to a few large herring smoked late in tlie [ year, or partly smoked, that they call bloaters. Q. The herring fishery at Grand Manan consists of different classes j of fish. There is the smoked herring, that is one class? — A. Yes. Q. What others ? — A. The other business is to catch them in nets fori bait to catch line fish with, and another business is to catch them in nets! to freeze them and sell them fresh for food. There is a very few people! who follow the catching of herring to pack in barrels of salt because thel market has been so dull. It is not followed much and has not been fori a number of years to any extent. It is followed some, but not to thef extent it used to be. Q. Now what are pickled herring ? — A. They are herring caught in nets, put in barrels, and sold as pickled herring. Q. They are the same kind that are caught and frozen, but not tlifl same kind that are smoked? — A. Just so. U--^ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2509 Q. Then yon bnvo the smoked herrinpf, the fresh herrinpf Ciinght for bait; the herriu^' that is caught aud tru/en fur bait ano busi- ness ; so 1 understand you ? — A. You understand pretty nearly. But tlu! iVeezing of the herring for food can only be done in cold weather, so that if the weather is not cold enough some of that is pickled, but not much is pickled otherwise, as the salt aud barrels are an expense. The Cou) mission met. Tuesday, October 1, 1S77. Examination of WiLFOHD .1. Fisiiek continued. Uy Mr. Trescot : (^)iiestion. When you closed yesterday, j'ou bad described the way of fishing to the Commissioners, and stated that the smoked-herring fishery at Grand Manan was almost essentially a weir-flshcry ; can you give the Commission any idea of what the amount of smoke«l herring business is at Grand Manan ? — Answer. I estimate the amount of smoked her- ring cured at Grand Manan at 400,000 boxes. Q, Annually? — A. Yes; annually. Q. Where is the market for these smoked herring ? — A. In the United .States almost altogether. Q. These herring are shipped directly from the Island of Grand Manan '. — A. They are now, under the present arrangements, under the treaty. Q. In what are they shipped ? In American vessels or by parties iu tbe island? — A. There are four English vessels that have been running iu, one from New York and three to Boston. These vessels are owned by people at Grand Manan. Then there are occasionally other vessels chartered to load herring for Boston. Q. Do I understand by that that they are chartered by Grand Manan people? — A. Yes. Q. What vessels are these generally ? — A. Just such vessels as they can pick up. It does not make any ditterence as to the character of the vessels running from Grand Manan to New Y'^ork or Boston. Either i:;n{:;lish or American vessels can go. Q. You say there are four vessels owned by people in Grand Manan in I wliich they ship smoked herring to Boston and New Y^ork ? — A. Yes ; j a large part of them ; and a large part of them are sold at Eastport. Q. Mostly caught in weirs ? — A. Altogether iu weirs. ii. Then there would be no portion that would be caught by Ameri- Icaiis ? — A. No ; unless they went there aud leased part of the weir. Q. It is all a Grand Manan fishery essentially ; the cargo is shipped liu Grand Manan vessels and shipped by the people of Grand Manan ? — ]A, Yes; in addition to the smoked herring business at Grand Manan, Itlie island of Campobello smokes, I should think, 250,000 boxes ; Indian jlslaud, Deer Island, and the rest of the small islands around the imme- Idiate vicinity about 50,000 more. I should say there were 700,000 boxes lot smoked herring cured iu our immediate vicmity on these British lislauds. Q. These fisheries at Campobello, Deer Island, and the neighboring lislaiids are all fisheries of the natives of those islands ? — A. Yes. Q. Now with regard to the frozen and pickled herring, what vsort of a Iksiuess is done at Grand Manan and the islands adjacent, to the best |. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 7 ^ A I {■/ < €P. W.r V Ua i.O I.I JIIIM ilM lU |jjj[22 12,0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ■• 6" ► Photographic Sciences Corporation V « ,1>^ \\" ^9> V o .V % i;^ .<> 33 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 % 17 '^i'^'.c.? .V i^.. IP.r C/j 'iolO AWAItD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. uieii. Tli« tVozeti herrin;; busiiioss can only be carried on in tlie wiiitoi when tlie weather is colli. It' a man sets his net t'ur hail and jj^ets iiiitD- lierriiiK than he wants to use, he :. Its them in barrels; that is the only way he can ntdize them at this time. In the winter season they lit oiit exclusively tor this frozen herrinj; business, but there are times in tlic w inter season wlu-n thaws come on and soft weather; then, if a man sets his nets out and catches lish, he can't freeze them, and he then pickles them in Itarrels. But there is no way they can make so much moiicv out of hcrrintj '•** freezing thetn an. Well, by whom is the <-atchinfj of herrinj^ for the [uirpose of frecz \un »;onducled generally? — A. Mostly altogether in our vicinity by \ht minion tishi>rmen. There is a small number of tishernien at Eastpoit that, when there is no herring there, would go tlown to Letite and Hack Bay, and amongst the islands; but the number of Dominion tisheruuii IS very small. Q. What is the proportion of the foreign fishing (sompared with tiiat of the natives at comparatively small in proportion to the whole number engaged in tlir business. (J. What is di. ic with these frozen herring, are they ship|)ed .'—A, Yes, sir. There is a gooil many of these bought at Eastport by tin people there wh- engage in that l)usiness,and lu■(^shipl)edon the stciuin'i to Boston. But a large (piantity is sold to American vessels thitt ;; > there and buy them. (^. For the purpose of bait '. — A. No ; mostly for food. I should sup jiose those that come I'or bait only take small 4uantilies. Those llii" come from (Uoucester carry away full loads. (^>. Well, besides these two herring lisheries, what are the lislit'iii^ around (hand Maiian '. — A. The iishing around (hand Manaii is coiliisi:, l)oli()ck, iiaddock, and hake. ii. Are these lisheries -within three miles of the slii)re or oil' shoir .'- A, Soini^ are within three miles. Q. Wliieii .' Tell the Coinniissiouers where the lisheries are, as ,i rule. — A. There is a time early in the spring and late in the fall wIimi the lish (U>nie in li'iir mostly altogether — mostly within the three-mile limit. Tiie pollock aiil codlish are mostly caiigiit outside td the three mile liiisit. (Jiavt'liv ground is a jureat place for polloek, and that, in in.v Ji(d_;ineMt, is ^iiln'i' the limit. The hake Iishing, since trawling has eoinineiiced, they liiUi' gone oil shore. It was always supposed that .nou had to get a nintldv bottom to catch hake. This trawling busint-ss has brought iij) i new idea, and the lishermen have tound their best hake last yt'ar ainl this year on hard bottom between Canipobello ami Grand ^laiiaii in deep water — laiger lish and more of them — and the tieet of vessels tint have followed hake Iishing this year have most all exclusively coniiin'l tlieiiiselves to miles. (}. Of these flic lespective i and flieir value course, more lia Idisiiiess. Tile sounds, and it i self, lint how m rlii'v go into. 'J vcar since my r ■ (}. This year, liuge I'atch. I { including in thi .!.'{.()(»o pounds. ]tliiiik,goundei ot hake caught, altogether in tlu - What I w; that the hake fis the most valiiabl Q. 'Jake it altc (lock oHsliore or Q- How about than in. Q- Then the cci otlsliore, except, i is a school of sma there catch them ^i. Then, as I n -tlie valuable cc Q. The hakei s '.'■ The jtollock 'J- And the In >'iiiid me, I don't •i*. 1 mean geno -A. At hand 3 ''y liir. At Camp '.'. Xow, by w Maiiiiii .'—A. The. '^ Is there a lai 'i^hcries within y f'i''i" and hire In" 'i'- No, I am till ,'l'i'"i'ify of Aiiieii ^•'■ly siiiiill, very si '.'• Could y«»ii r, ■"<; lislieiy at (hai '";i»li'»orho()(| yeui "itli somepriiciicj, '■'''""; what would I'^'-^f 'i'om Letite h'lliU'of the lish ca riiij;lit go ><.j()(iO(Mi ' left. '^ That is for (h AWARD OP THE FISHKKY COMMISSION. 2511 tlu'iiisolves to that li.shiiig-jiround whicli T consider without tlie three mil*''*' {}, Of these four fisheriea. hake, hnddoek, iioHoek, and co«l, what is tluMcspeetive value ? I mean us fisheries. — A. Tlu< quautity of hake, mid tlit'ir vahie, I couhl fjive you very near, but tiu< others wouhl he, of coiirst', more lialiie not to l»e eorreet. I aui hirjjely eufjuged in tlie siuind tmsiiiess. Tiie <|uintal of iiake makes one and a quarter pounds of sounds, and it is not only my busiuess to kiu)\v what sounds I buy my- self, hut how uiueh are >rou}jfht in the lUMfjliborhood, and whose hands they iio into. This year the hake business has been larger than any year sineo my remembrance. {}. Tiiis year, I nnderstaiul, it has been offshore? — A. Yes, a very liU'^e i'ateh. J estimate the <|uantity of sounds this year in our distri(!t, iiicindiiig in that (irand iMaium and everything from L'oint Lepreau, ;!;{,(Mi(» pounds. J'eriiaps it may be more, l,(l(i() pounds over. It will not, I tliiiik, go under. Uy taking a (pnirter Irom that you have the quantity of hake caught. Now, last year we didn't get taiiil me, I don't say there is not a few hake, pollock, and cod iiisluue. (^>. I mean generally. Now of these four wlii. No, 1 am talking about the American boats and vessels f — A. The '(iiantity of Anieiican boats and vessel-; tliat go there to lisii inside is viMv small, very small indeed. (). Could you form any estimate what would lie the annual value of 'lie lislieiy at (liand Maiiaii, taking the opposite coast, and taking tlie mi;;|ihorlioo(l generally, from your experuMice as a man of Imsiiu'ss «ith some pnu^tical acquaintance with the operations yourself as a mer- 'limit ; what would be the annual value, including (Jrand .Manan and the mast trom fiCtite to St. Andrews and licpreau ! — A. I should set the lvalue of the lish caught at Grand Manan at not over >< I00,0(»(». They |iiii«lit go s.jl)0,()0(), but 1 think if 1 had >,()00 I would have some t'ft. ^>. That is for Grand 3Iaiian. Now for the coast on the other side. — 2512 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. '■.■ f't A. From Point Lepreau to St. Andrews and all the islands conneoted, including G^uipobello, I should put less than a million. It is a pretty Lard thing to estimate, but I should say considerably less than a mill. ion, with everything included — herring, oil, thu fish-tummies, smoked herring, hake sounds, and the fish themselves. Q. That excludes Grand Manan ? — A. Yes; I put down Grand Mai)an at $400,000, and all the other places around our vicinity at not over a million. Q. Now, I will read some questions put to and answers made by a gentleman supposed to be familiar with that portion of the fisheries, and without asking you to contradict him, I want to ask you how far your judgment agrees with his. 1 refer to the evidence of James Maclean, merchant, Letite, parish of St. George, Charlotte County, New IJruus wick; do you know himf — A. Very well ; I am very intimate with him. Q. These are the questions and. answers, if you will attend to them : Q. Judging from yonr practical knowledge of the fishery, beiDj; an owner of vessels, and dealing with the men who tish as you «To, what do you say, at a low figure, woulil be the value of the fiHheries and the actual worth of the iiah caught by British subject' between the points you mention from Lopreau to Letite; what would be a fair aver- age value from 1871 ? — A. I should estimate the quantity for Charlotte County and the acyoining islands. We all iisli, and it would be difBcult to separate the two. Q. You are acquainted with the value of the islands as well T — A. Yes ; I visit Grnnij Manan occasionally, and the adjoining islands often, Q. What is the catch of the whole ? — A. A low estimate for our fishing would be f 1,000,000 for each year. Q. For British subjects ! — A. Yes. Q. That is a low estimate T — A. I think I am under the mark ; in fact, I hiivc m doubt of it at all. Q. And it niny be a good deal more ? — A. Yes. Q. You have not a shadow of a doubt that it is at least a million? — A. No. Q. And our American friends take a considerable amount more f — A. They tiikc a> many. Q. They have more men and more vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. And they take at least as much ?— A. Yes, fully as much as we do, if not more. Q. Have you any doubt that they take more ? — A. I believe that they take more. Q. Y^ou have no doubt of it ? — A. No. Q. With your knowledge, would you say that was an accurate .state ment of the fishing between Letite and Lepreau ? — A. I shall uot alter my estimate by hearing that. Q. Do you knOw of any American vessels engaged in these waters, in those fisheries, taking anything like an approximate amount of a mill ion? — A. No; it is impos.sible. It is erroneous. The imports of the country would not show it, and cannot show it ; it is impossible. Q. Now, here is from another witness whom you may know also, | Walter B. McLaughlan, light-house keeper and fishery-overseer at Giaiul Manan, in the county of Charlotte, New Brunswick f— A. I have kiiowu j him from a boy. Q. (Heads:)' Q. You are well acquainted with the fisheries of Charlotte County ; take the iiisin- land fishing from Letite as far as Lepreau, is thata good fishing ground i—A.. It is ion-, sidored a good tishing ground; I am not personally acquaiutou with it, and can oiilrj say from what I have heard. My duties have never carried mo there. Q. But your practical knowledge extends there ? — A. \''es. Q. What would b" the value of the mainland fishery, the British fishery alone, tak- ing it from Letite to Lepreau ? — A. My own fishery is, say, 8>">00,000 ; Campobello ami I West Isles must equal mine, and the mainland will certainly be more than liall uf| that, if not equal to it. y. Well, then, you put Campobello and West Isles as about equal to Grand Manan ?- j A. Yes; speaking as I do. Not knowing exactly, I should say so. I Q. That would be a half a million for these two islands, and a half a niilliou fori Grand Manan, that makes a million, and you think the mainland is half as niiicli lul either of those; that would be a fair estimate for the mainland f — A. Yes; Cbarlottel Comity is a very think tlie result ci cries r(( (111' provii V- Von put half till- viMi, and, in isliy what I hear; on file .North Shor tronldr with them iiiiicii UH they wan Now floes yi licaid that cor C'a/ii|»ob»'llo nil tlie ii:ainland. Q. if he moai Isles, it would I sjjoiild not alter Q- Vou ptit hi a;fiee with him » Q. Now he is same as the Brit Tliey eome down the North shore any idea that thsi iiiii(»mit caught t itaii.s. I would I . At page 25( uiiunlaiid. Mr. T tlie witness says, 'I'lt'stioii is asked, L'iins and the san ilit'ii lie answers li'«' estimate A. Iialf million taken I'.v Aiiiericau fislie Q- You have be Q. And you ku ''''' — A. Yes, ver^ Q- Now, we hart 'I'y tlie occupation: call a titfing villa- P^'iilation. The n ""t t'H\v fit out {«r t i»\v (joine up to Ej J' North shore, at ^'K' amount of Ai ''"••*iiios8 is very sr 'I'^r Ihh'ii a pa.yi'tiif '0 the Magdalen Is ;."'"',•-' q'lito a busi. ''"* last year as foi tell ol money bv *'»"kHl Magdalen h "'""y people kept .A p"-. They didn't * F""ber of small boa I" m.N estimation, th frozen herring off s 158 F AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2513 Couiify is a very iiuportitiit tUliin^ comity. In 18(il I was a census enumerator, anil I think iIhi result of the tisliiuK in that county nearly e(|uallu(l that of all the other tUh- (.riesol lii<^ |>rovince, with the exception of 8t, Jolui County. (^. Voiipiit half n million as the catch of the Mritish Iis1ii>rinuu on the mninliiml for the ,vt':ii, and, in your jnilgincnt, the .Vnierican llo and the adjacent islands $500,000, and halt a million tor the ii:ainland. Q. If he means that the mainlaml is halt' of Campobeilo and VV^est Isle.s. it would be only $2.">0,000 ? — A. lie is under my estimate, but 1 should not alter my estimate. (^. You put half a million for the mainland for a year! You don't a<;ree with him? — A. No; 1 think he should have added $250,000 more. Q. Now he is asked if, in his jutlgment, the American catch is the same as the British, and answers, "All I can judge by is what I hear. Tlu'.v coiui^ down in their vessels. I think they have their own way on the North shore very much more than at Grand Manan.'' Have yea any idea that that is correct ? — A. No. As I have said before, of that amount caught there there is not one-tifth that is caught by Amer- icans. I would be safe in saying less. (^>. At page 250 he is asked by Mr. Foster what he includes in the mainland. Air. Thomson answeis, "From Point Lepreau to Letite ;'' and the witness says. "From Point Lepreau to St. Andrew's." Then the iliiostion is asked, " You make one million and a half taken by Ameri- can.s and the same by British fishermen,'' and the answer is yes ; and then he answers in the atlirmative to the question whether that is a low estimate. — A. That is where we (lifter. 1 say that of one and a halt' million taken, not more that onc-fifth of that r was : " They are about the same as our own j they live on coast ing, fishing, farming, lumbering, and so on, just exactly as ours do. 1 know no difterence between them." Then the question was asked; " Without our fisheries could they live by fishing f" And the answer was : "No ; because if they could they would not come to our fisheries They would not come so far away. They do not have fisheries of their own." Now, of course, without the fisheries they could not live by fish- ing; but do you know of any community from Eastport to Mount Desert th.1t depends upon fishing, and that would be compelled to go over to Grand Manan waters to fish? — A. No; not for the last twenty .\ears, As 1 tell you, Lemoine had this .year three vessels ; last year it ha»l two. They used to have eight or ten thirty years ago. And these men have gone into the Jiank fi.shing to Giand Bank. This year there are oiilv three that have favored the Bay of Fundy fishing, and they fish on the Grand Manan Bank, at a place which is outside the limits. Q. In your experience in the smoked herring business could the biisi ness sustain a duty of a dolliir a barrel ? — A. Well, it has always been | by the box. I think the old duty was five cents a bug. Q. If that duty were reimposed what would be the effect ? — A. Tht | people would have to stop smoking them now. Q. How is it about the accuracy of this statement, according to| your judgment: "Q. Now, taking Grand Manan, judging by the re- turns that the fishermen give you, can you tell us what each tamikl makes by fishing ! Do you know that from statements of their own, or from personal observation ? — A, 1 think $1,000 a year would be the! utmost each would make. I don't mean clear; thej' certainly would iiotl clear that"? — A. I should think that was large. Still, as I don't visit) Grand Manan, aufl I don't know how the people live there now, 1 sliouldj rather not answer as to that. Q. What would you estimate to be the money-value of the fish that| the average fisherman would catch there iu a year ? — A. They woulJJ have to be divide| lent. Q. That is your idea? — A. For the inshore fisheries. 1 think the o|)»'^| ing of the American markets is an etiuivalent for the Dominion fislieriei| inside of three miles. Q. Well, when you say that, from what stand-point are you speakiDil the tisherman's or the mercliant's ? Or do you take a broad, patiintij view of the matter f — A. 1 am speaking from my own judgment in tb business I have followed through life and am still following. Q. Well, when you say that the free market is an entire equivaleni for our fisheries, who do you say the free market is given by ; at wliosi expense ? Is it at the expense of the American fishermen or the ImkIj] of the United States people ? — A. The free market and taking off tli duty is in favor of the fishermen. Q. The American fishermen ? — A. No, the Dominion fishermen. Q. And against whom is it? — A. If the duty was put on it would 1 against the Dominion fishermen. Q. Well, against whom is the taking off of the duty? — A. It is agaiusj the United States, of course. Q. But what cla.ss in the United States ? — A. I don't know how j* intend to class them. I suppose the United States is a country, and i the country takes it off, I suppose the country must make up tb amount. Q. How did you class the British fishermen ? You thought it wiisi advantage to them to have the duty off? — A. Simply because it givuld they increase in price in consequence of a duty 1 — A. I can- not answer that question. (^. Are you serious about that? — A. I am. If you put on a duty and ill me after it has been in operation a few years, 1 will answer that question. I can't anticipate anything that might happen. Q. Yon are serious in saying that five cents a box on herring would a prohibition to British fisheries, but you can't say whether, if they j:ere prohibited, it would have the effect of raising the price of Ameri- |tan flsli ! — A. No, I could not say. Q. Then, according to you, the influx of British fish has no effect upon jllip price of American tish at all? — A. I didn't sfiy so. Q. Well, do you say so ? I think it follows from what you have aid ? — A. I don't say anything about it. Q. Do you decline to give any opinion in regard to it ? — A. I won't ^t the present time. (^. Uave you any doubt that the fish sent in from the British prov- inces has a sensible effect in making the price of fish smaller in the 'tiiteoyou n \ra.s 2- years o Q. I confine voa viiig had biisl eouiits and gettin aiithority. in mv ( Q I wish to ge •*ii.v, in it not ? J> ^vt'irs there. Q. VVho are the port peoi)le ?— A. iiaii people. My ^ Q- ^Ue has not 'li'iied of women. Q. i>o you inchi fan catch ?~A. N suppose they must Q. I>oyouincln( Jo.vonr .share as Im l""'« part of the . Q. Though it i.s "I ^ur waters, and in British waters, a each weir. Q. Therefore it is Knn.sh waters and ^i- i'hen if Amer P'"wi in their vesse ."fo'ild call that Ur ms m board their /i' '>oIuudersta H or any other fis P|youcaliitiiriti Hntish waters wi pit caught in IJritis y- lou have beei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2619 personal knowledge, but I'luiu iuluruiatiou roveived frutn other peisoiisf —A. I do not my ho. Q. Do you not statu that nosv f — A. I lived in Qmnd Manan until [ Wii.-i -- years ot ajjfe. Q. I uuntlno .you to the last six years. During the whole of that tinio you (lid not visit the island scarcely once a year, live times during six years. From personal observation you have admitted you cannot speak ot tilt' island during those years, — A. I told you I had not seen any llsh oanj;lir there. Q. All the information you have been pleased to give the Commission in n-<:ard to the fishing round Grand Manan, and the (piantity taken by American and Uriti.sh subjects, has been based on hearsay ? — A. It liiis iM't'ii based on my own actual knowletlge, and from conversation with (irand Manan people and others, and men etigaged in the business. Q. Is not that hearsay ? — A. You may call it what you have a miniis, depending on others entirely for the truth of those statements, you decline to call hearsay ? — A. I say you can call it hearsay. I come iiere and swear to the best of myju(lgment in reganl to this matter, lioni my personal knowledge of Grand Manan, having been a long time rosident there, having fished tliere, a;id having been through the whole tiling; from conversation with men there engaged in the business, and having had business transactions with them, and from receiving ac- I'ouiits and getting my pay from weirs I own there, which Is pretty good mitliority. in my opinion. Q. I wish to get from you exactly what the authority is ; that is hear- say, is it not? Do you say you own weirs there? — A. I own shares in wi'irs there. Q. Who are the other owners with you, Grand Manan people or East- port people? — A. With the exception ot my sister, they are Grand Ma- nan i)eople. My sister owns a share with me; she lives in Eastport. Q. She has not been naturalized? — A. No; I did not know it was re- ijiiired of women. Q. Do you include the herring you take in your weirs in the Ameri- can oatch ? — A. No ; I pay the government a tax for the weirs, and I suppose they must claim the fishing. (). Do you include that portion of the tish out of the weirs which cornea i to your share as being part of the American catch ? — A. I include it as I being part of the Dominion catch, it being caught at Grand Manan. Q. Though it is taken by an American citizen simply doing business I our waters, and you call that British catch ? — A. I do; it was caught liD British waters, and 1 pay $10 a year to the Dominion Gov^ernment on leach weir. Q. Therefore it is British catch ? — A. I presume so; it is caught in I British waters and cure«l on British soil. (}. Then if Americans come in and catch tish very nearly the same Iplace in their vessels, which would be taken out of British waters, you jwoukl call that British catch ? — A. British vessels catuiot smoke her- |mi}{ on board their vessels. (J. 1 )o I understand that if American vessels come in and catch her- Iring or any other fish within three miles of the shore, in British waters, Itbiityou call it British catch ? — A. No ; if an American vessel catches fish jiu British waters within three miles of the shore, I call it American catch, |but caught in British waters. Q. You have beeu pleased to put the value of all the catch round m'i p»fi 2520 AWARD OP THE FISHERY C0MMI8SI0N. GrniHl Manan at 840(>,00(> a yoar?— A. Yes; I »ai«l that I call it, in inv jlul{,Mnent, not over A400. seaHon a year for six years, and that for half a day ? — A. 1 gave ilmt opinion as heing to the best of my knowledge, and 1 cbtained it trom reliable sonrces. Q. Do you know Mr. W. B. McLaughlin ? — A. I have known him tor a long time. Q. Is he a respectable man ? — A. Yes. (^ Is he a crel{8:5,891, but that is far iimlir tbe real catch. y. You say that it is far under the actual value of the catch. How do you acroiiiit for its beinj; under the amount ? — A. Well, the lisheruien are reluctant to yivc an uc- count of what they make on account of tbe taxation. We have a free-school law now, and are taxed very heavily for it. Q. It ba]>pens that yon are an assessor of taxes 1 — A. I am at times, and 1 am :i county c. You have sm ^es; as we 8j)eaki J"' He has lived i"innet liock for a I Q- AVould hisli^ N»ot a particle, bul at (Tand Manan . V- That may be fo'ind and asking * [rail go round. Q- Do you belie AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2521 il Witli jour mcniiH of obtninini; information, do you still prtmunio to |)iit your opinion af^aitist his? — A. I do; I don*t depart from it one piirtiflt'. ly Altliou{;li it was Mr. McLauKlilin's buHinoHM to oittain a return of the (Dtcli 1 — A. I liave given a ^reat deal ot tliouglit and rare to it for Vt'illS. Q. Tiien I underntand yon to say that the eatch amountH to $ 100,000 in ioiiihI numbers, including tliu American catch and vvco' catch all rouiid the island? — A. Yes. {}. Tlien Mr. McLaughlin has tohl an untruth deliberately, or those ponplf lied to him when they .said they caught ^.'tS.'i.HOI in valtie, and in round inimbers $4(>0,(>00 ; alter tlifiii. Q. Is it probable, in your Judgment, that the people of the island de- ceived Mr. McLaughlin as to their catch ? — A. I don't know. (,). Is it probable? — A. I don't know what the people ami Mr. Mc- L;iiighlin may do together. (^. Do you think it is probable? — A. Mr. McLaughlin, until a few years ago, had lived on Gsuinet Kock, which is a long wiiy from the iniiiiiliind, and was not connected with the fisheries. (j. Mr. McLaughlin has stated that he went from house to house and uskod each man as to his catcrh ? — A. That may be. Q. You know Crrand Manan ; do you believe the people would delib- erately deceive Mr. McLaughlin, and make believe that they caught more iish than they actually did ? — A. I don't know ; I cannot answer tliat qiuvstion ; 1 don't know what the people of Grand Manan told ^[r. McLaughlin. Q. You cannot form any oiunion as to whether the people would de- ceive him or not? — A. 1 don't wish to form any opinion, because I do not tiiink it is necessary. I don't wish to form one without due consid- eration, arul unless I know with whom he talked. I don't propose to have anything to do with Mr. McLaughlin's talk with the inhabitants. Q. Do you admit that, if Mr. McLaughlin tells the truth, when he sa)8 that he went from house to house and made inquiries of each tish- eriiian, he has better means of information than you i — A. I won't admit that. I know Mr. McLaughlin well, and I won't admit it. Q. Do you intend the Commission to understand that Mr. McLaugh- lin is a man not to be relied on ? — A. 1 don't wish to state anything of that ivind. I have made my statement, Mr. McLaughlin has made his, aud tlie Commission may choose between the two. (l You have sworn that you believe him to be a credible man ? — A. I Yes; as we speak of men, I have nothing to say against Mr. McLaugh- iliii. lie has lived in Grand Manan; I know hini; and he has lived on JGaiinet Kock for a long time. Q. Would his living on Ganuet Kock alter his moral character? — A. I Not a particle, but it deprives him of seeing the extent of the tishing I at Grand Manan. Q. That may be. Does it deprive him of the opportunity of going Irounil and asking the diflfercnt people what they caught? — A. No; he |cau go round. Q. Do you believe the inhabitants would misinform him by telling 2522 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. mm: > '■ •-, ■r'Br . .-.r:.' : ::lM .■« mm 30 lilt! him tbat they caught more thau they did, for the purpose of iiicreasiiig their taxes!— A. I could not answer the question; the inhabitants can answer it; 1 refuse to answer it. Q. You say that, althoufrh Mr. McLaughlin Lad those means of intor- mation, you still put your judgment against his ? — A. I do. Q. Is there not as much fish taketi around the island of Campobello and Deer Island, with its surrounding islands, the parish of West Isle;!, as is taken round Grand Manan ? — A.. I should think tliat Grand Maiiaii exceeds them both in smoked herring, and exceeds them largely in hakf this year; but Deer Island exceeds Campobello in codfish aud frozen herring. It would be quite a calculation to figure it up. Q. Is there as much fish taken round the two islands Campobello iind Deer Island, and the parish of West Isles, as there is rounen are liable to mistakes and to errors in Judgment. Q. You admit you are liable to mistakes ? — A. It may be so. You may find men who won't agree with me. -I! 4M .^*Sff^ asl.'- 2524 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. »!'i Q. Vou won't admit you make jnistakos f — A. I bave given yon luy opinion to tbe best of my juilgment, and yon bave got it. Q. Altbongb yon swear tbat all men are liable to make mistakes, you swear yon are not ? — A. I don't understand it in tbat way. Q. You bave stated tbere were Dominion men wbo own sbares in American vessels running to Eastport and elsewbere. Will you tell me wbo tbey are ? — A. I did not say so. Q. Yon said American vessels owned by Dominion men ? — A. I did, and can give you tbeir names. Q. Give tbem ? — A. There is tbe Sea Spray, wbicb is chartered this year by a man named Powers, of Deer Isle, Maine, 1 think, and be is soin. ing mackerel on tbe coast of Maine. Then tbere is the schooner Loolv- out. Q. They are American vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. What do you mean by chartered if Tbere is a difference between owning and chartering ? — A. A great deal of ditference. Q. I asked you wbo tbe Dominion owners were ? — A. The Dominion owners are tbe Ilohneses. Q. Where do tbey live ? — A. In Deer Island some of them, and some at Beaver Ilarbor. Tbere is the Charlotte Augusta, the captain ol which is William Holmes. She is owned by the family of Holmes who live at Fairbaven ; and the Lookout is owned by the same family. Q. Are tbey British subjects 'I — A. Y'es. Q. Living at Deer Island ? — A. Yes. Q. And not naturalized in the United States ? — A. No, they are not naturalized. Q. Tbey are owned by tbem, and American registered ? — A. No, I did not say that. Q. The vessels are run in another name ; in whose name do these ves- sels run ? — A. i could not tell you. Q. How then do you know the vessels have Dominion owners .'— A. I know it by hearing the p.arties themselves say so, and by talking with some of the principal owners of the vessels. Q. Did you never inquire in whose name they were running? — A. I never went to the custom-house to see in whose name tbey were reyis- tered. Q. You never asked ? — A. No. Q. Are they American registered ? — A. They are American vessels running under American registry. Q. Of course, you are aware tbat uo British subject can own an Ameri can vessel, or any share in an American vessel ? — A. Y'es. Q. Kound Deer Island and Campobello 1 think the fish are caught by boat fishermen ? — A. Not altogether. Q. There is a great (piantity caught by them ? — A. Deer Island is get ting a great many small vessels. Q. Fishing round their own island ? — A. They don't fish there. There is very little fishing round Deer Island. Q. I am speaking of the fishing round Deer Island or West Isles '—A. The fishing at Deer Island and West Isles for frozen herring is followed in boats inshore, but the fishing is mostly done in vessels. There aie ii few boats tbere ; sonie 22 feet boats. Q. Uound Deer Island, West Isles, and Campobello tbe fishing is in British waters, and within three miles of the land? — A. Yes, and at Grand Manan. Hake is caught out toward the Wolves outside of three miles. Q. You know Quoddy River ? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2525 (). Where does it run ? It is a river rnnninp: into the bay ? — A. Some call it Qiioddy River; others call it Passainaquoddy Bay; there are dif- ferent names for it. Q. Passainaquoddy Bay is above. — A. Some people call it St. Andrew's Bay : it is always called St. Andrew's by the people with ns. In fact, there is no river by the name of Quoddy River. I know of no river by the name of Quoddy River. {}. You have lived at Eastport all the time you have stated, and you never heard of a salt-water current in the neighborhood ot Deer Island and Campobello bearing the name of Quoddy River ? — A. I did not say so. A saltwater current and a river are two ditferent things. A river is supposed to be fresh water, though salt water may tlow into it. Q. Is there not a .salt water current there commonly known as Quoddy Kiver ? — A. Not by our people. Q. Do you know the stream called Quoddy River ? — A. I know of no streiini called Quoddy River. I know where Quoddy is, and the entrance to (i>uoddy Harbor. Q. I untlerstand you that, though living so long at Eastport, in close i>roximity to West Isles and Campobello, you never heard ot the seacnrrent called Quoddy River ? — A. I don't know it by that name. (}. What name do you know it by? — A. On the way to Eastport, be- tween Cherry Island and Campobello, and, in fact, all around Eastport on both sides of it, the currents are very swift. There is a shallow place we call the Ledges, which lies below Cherry Island, rather toward East- port, where the tides of St. Andrew's Bay and Cobscook Bay, of which Eastport forms the end, meet. If you ask fishermen where they are going, they always say that they are going oil' to the Ledges. They will not tell you they are going to fish in (Quoddy River. It is all Quoddy, and it is all this bay ; but this particular jmint you are trying to come at, this shoal piece of ground that lies right on the point as the two swift currents come down bj' Moose Island, on which Eastport is built, we call the Ledges altogether. Q. Will you tell me how you know those particular portions you have described are what I mean by (Juoddy River ? — A. I don't know any- thing else you can mean. i). For you never heard of Quoddy River ? — A. I give you the bound- aries of what I call Quoddy. (}. Yon said you never heard of Quoddy River ? — A, I may have beard of it, but our tishermen do not call it so. (}. Did you not tell me you never heard of Quoddy River ? — A. You asked me if I knew of a swift salt-water current called Quoddy River, and I told you I did not. il I asked you if you had heard of Quoddy River, and you told me you never had. — A. I don't remember what answer I ma»le to that, Q. 1 ask you now, have you ever heard in your lifetime of what is called (Quoddy River ?— A. I may by some people, but as a we don't call it that. (^ Have you ever heard of it ? — A. I think it is likely I have. Q. Are you sure you have? — A. I think it is likely I have. Q. Are you sure you have ? — A. I could not name any man who said it. (^ Have you heard of it i — A. Let it go that I have. By Mr. Trescot : (). You have been asked whether you undertake to contradict certain testimony given by Mr. McLaughlin ; I want to cjill your attention to some questions and answers to show whether you mean to contradict general thing %■■ i-*:?*??. ■.'irmZ -N-^- /• ^ If i-ff';. ■' ^)tn 2526 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. mltR - ■ Hi P \>h4 *M him, or whether it is not the fact that you are in agreement with him. Mr. McLaughlin says : Q. Do you niako your return for the whole yearf — A. Yes ; from the Ist January to the 31st December. Q. You do not make it up for the fiscal j'ear f — A. No ; I am onleretl to make it up to the 31bt December ; the returu stateH itself that it is so made up. The amount in my estimate, as I made it up from inquiry lat t year, is $383,^91, but that is far under the real catch. Q. You say that is far under the actual value of the catch ; how do you account for its b«ung under the amount t — A. Well, the Hshenuen are reluctant to give an account of what they make, on accouut of the taxation. We have a free-school law now, anil are taxed very heavily for it. Q. It happeiiH that you are an assessor of taxes 7 — A. I am at times, and I am a county councilor, and have been a census enumerator. Q. And they do not like to give this iuformation to you ; you are the last person tn whom they want to give it f — A. Well, I tell them that the marine department never lots such information go our, of its possession. They tell me there is no need of doing BO ; that I have it all in my hands. Tiiey say it is too thin. Q. 'I'hen you believe the amount you have given is an underestimate f — A. I know it must be over half a million dollars ; that is, our old $500,000. Q. That is within the nuirk for your own island f — A. Yes. Q. Of the British catch ? — A. Yes; our own Grand Manan people ; because sometimes they come over from Campobello and other places, but I have nothing to do with tlmt. Q. Well, now, is the American catch larger or smaller ? — A. I think it is larger. Q. Have you any doubt ? — A. No ; because their appliances are so much better thaii oars, and I think their men outnumber ours. In rejjard to the last nortion of the answer, what is your judgment as to the proportion of tue American catch to the British catch ? — A. The American catch at Grand Manan is very small. I don't think I was called upon to make an estimate of the amount. The American catch is very small indeed. j Q. What is the relation of the British to the American catch at Grand Manan ? — A. I have denied emphatically that there was any American catch to amount to anything taken within three miles of the shore. The American catch at Grand Manan is taken almost entirely outside of tbe three miles. By Mr. Thomson : Q. I understood you to swear that within three miles round Grand Manan there was no American catch whatever ? — A. I did not say so. I said very trifling. Q. What do you call very trifling? — A. I think the catch inside of the three mile limit at Grand Manan by American boats is very trifling. Q. Or schooners? — A. There is not any American schooner flsbiuji within three miles. You cannot mention and you cannot prove one. I do not believe but that $2,000 would buy all that is caught by Amoricau boats inside of the three-mile limit. Q. Then Mr. McLaughlin's statement that the Americans caught $500,000 worth of fish there is and must be willfully false ? — A. Inside of three miles — yes, or he was mistaken. By Mr. Trescot: Q. Mr. jVIcLaughlin's conversations as to the British catch could give] him no information as to what was the American catch? — A. Not thei slightest. Mr. McLaugiilin must have reckoned the value of ail the cargoes of frozen herring taken off the island and caught by Dotuinioiil subjects, or he must have reckoned the fish caught by American vessels] at Grand Manan 15 miles out, or at the Kipplings 8 or 10 miles out toT sea. He has made a gross mistake some way, but how I don't kuowj He may be able to account for it; I cannot. Joseph Lai behalf of tlie < By Mr. Question. W Q. Where ar Q. Are you i Q. When dit Q. fla\'e vou Q. What ha.« there in the gre and vessel fishii Q- And are vessel tishing, b Q. ^VI^at fish Manan ?_A. II( Q. AVIiat are i Q. Smoked or not many. Q. Have 3'ou i on flic average ai herring fishery f- nuniber depends Q- Is the smol< weir lisliery ? ^ smoked. Q. Who proset fisljery, or is it pji I cannot now call i'l the business at in it to a very lint been natnralized- Q- As far as tl I fishery, carried on lus this is the cas( Q- ^Vhere are tlj I market. Q. In American mil's, since the ne allowed to enter t I coasting- ves.sels. y- The Grand Mi ji'iti have been bou been converted intt poston taking ther y. Do you know -. V. How is it con F'nng which are ti piand a„,i sold to t i Q. Do you know pliicli come there, c V. \\ hat other fis m aronnd Manan c AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2527 No. 55, jive [tbe lion selsl It to| lioff JosEPii Lakeman, ilsheriuaii, of Grand Maiiau Island, was called ou bebalf of tlie Governineut of tlie United States, sworu and examined. Hy Mr. Trescot : Question. Where were yon born ? — Answer. In Lnbec, State of Maine. Q. Where are you now living ? — A. On Grand Manau Island. Q. Are yon now a British subject ? — A. No. Q. When did you move from Maine to Grand !M{inan? — A. In 1845. Q. Have you lived at Grand Manan since ? — A. Yes. Q. What has been your occupation at Grand Manan ? — A. I began tliere in the green fish trade as a merchant, and I added to that weir and vessel fishing. Q. And are you now weir and vessel fishing ? — A. I am not now vessel lishing, but I am weir fishing. I make that a specialty. Q. What tish are caught at and in the neighborhood of Grand Manan ? — A. Herring principally, and also cod, pollock, and hake. Q. What are you especially engaged in ? — A. The herring fishery. Q. Smoked or frozen ? — A. Smoked mostly. We freeze some few, but not many. Q, Have you any idea as to the number of boxes of herring put np ou the average annually at Grand Manan in connection with the smoked herring fishery ?— A. From 300,000 to 500,000 boxes are put up. The nunibi'r depends upon the run of the fishing about the island. Q. Is the smoked herring fishery of Grand Manan almost entirely a weir Jishery ? — A. Yes ; about all of it is so. Very few net herring are smoked. Q. Who prosecutes the herring fishery, as a rnle ? Is it a native fishery, or is it participated in by people outside — by Americans ? — A. I cannot now call to mind any person, American born, who is engaged in the business at the present time, except Mr. Small, who is engaged in it to a very limited extent — he is a native-born American, and has been naturalized — and myself. Q. As far as the herring fishery goes, it is entirely a Grand Manan fishery, carried on by tbe native population ? — A. I'es, generallj"^ speak- ing this is the case. Q. Where are the smoked herring sent? — A. Mostly to the American market. Q. In American or Grand Manan vessels ? — A. Within the last few ypiirs, since the new treaty came into operation, and Canadian fish were allowed to enter the American market free of duty, they have bought coasting-vessels. (J. Who have done so ? — A. Our people. Q. The Grand Manan people? — A. Y'^es ; they are owned at our island, ami have been bought on the American siile. American vessels have been converted into English vessels, and they are run to New York and Boston, taking there the fish of the island and smoked herring principally. Q. Do you know anything about the frozen-herring business ? — A. Y'es. Q. How is it conducted, and what sort of a business is it ? — A. The heiring which are frozen are caught principally by our people on the islnnd, and sold to the American vessels, which come there for them. Q. Do you know any appreciable proportion of American vessels [Tliicli come there, catch herring, and freeze thiMu ? — A. I do not. Q. What other fisheries besides the herring fishery are carried on at ml around Manan Island ? — A. The cod, pollock, and hake fisheries. m M M^Ij 2528 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Are they insliore or off-shore fisheries ? — A. The hake, until within a few years back, has been considered altogether an inshore fishery, but since the introduction of trawling it has extended into deep water atiil offshore. They go out now earlier in the season than they used to do to tish for hake. Q. It has become an off-shore fishery ? — A. Tes ; it is carried on lie- yonVhat do you think is the value of the frozen-herring fishery,] including bait and food and everything else? — A. I should suppose thai the average quantity sent to the American market would be from 10 ti 12 cargoes a year. Q. What are they worth a cargo? — A. About $1,000,' on the averaj;( Q. That would make $12,000 for frozen-herring? — A. Yes; from, $10,000 to $12,000. Q. What are the cod, hake, and pollock fisheries at Grand Mauiti worth?— A. I annual catch f Q. AVhat is is about $1.25 Q. That woi A. Vos. Q. AVJiat is f dock and hake Q. WJuit is t age 12,000 and catch for this fi Q. AN'hat is a average, for Jar, Q. What wou Uy Sir Al ' Q- i)o you raa placed the rate i liy Mr. Ti Q. How mnch Q. Think a lit minutes ago that fisheries of Grani most to $60,000 ?. tliat was a slip of Q. This is the t yo; the value of Q. But as far ai the value of lOO worth $20,000, aiii mistake. This is ring', frozen herrit Q. You think tl agree with Mr. M tliiuk that it is $5( .""tJtdown at $50 Q- What portioi iiuiit is conducted tills 8500,000 is rei for fish taken by nj considered to be ci( [i- l>o any other "ot many. I (^ Uow many A limit, off Grand M{ catch ?-A. I cJo n F'tliin the 3.mile [some vessels that a F the purpose of ii Pm have done so^ pselswith bait. Hunt with them v V. 1 our experieu( *«' "eir-flshing all 1'^ And you know 159 p AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2529 the I tair worth ?— A. I should say that 10,000 quintals would be a fair average annual catch for the hake fishery. Q. What is a quintal worth!— A. I should say that the average price is about 8 1.-*5 a quintal. Q. That would make $12,500 as the annual value of this fishery ? — A. Vos. Q. >Viiat is the haddock fishery worth ?— A. As a general thing had- dock and hake go together. Q. What is the cod-fishery worth ?— A. I should say that on the aver- age 12,000 and probably 13,000 quintals would be a fair average annual catch tor this fishery at Grand Manan. Q. What is a quintal of cod worth ?— A. From $3.50 to $3.75 on the average, for large and small. Q. What would 13,000 quintals then be worth?— A. $48,750. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. 13o you make this up at the rate of $3.75 or $3.50 ?— A. I h we placed the rate at $3.75. Bv Mr. Trescot : Q, How ranch do these several totals make ? — A. $133,450. Q. Think a little and tell us what you meant by telling us a few miuutes ago that in your opinion the value of the annual catch of the fisheries of Grand Manan Island only amounted to $50,000, or at the most to $60,000?— A. $500,000 I meant. Di«l I say $50,000 ? If I did, that was a slip of the tongue— and if I said $00,000 I meant $000,000, Q. This is the annual proceeds of the Grand Manan fisheries ? — A. >'o; the value of the hake sounds is yet to be considered. Q. But as far as you have gone th{\it is the case ? — A. I want to add the value of 100,000 boxes of herring, which at 20 cents a box are worth $20,000, and the total figure is then $153,450, if I have made no mistake. This is the value of the average annual catch of smoked her- ring, frozen herring, hake, ami cod at Grand Manan. Q. You think that the catch of fish at Grand Manan, in which you agree with Mr. McLaughlin, is worth about $500,000 ? — A. I do not tbiuk that it is $500,000 a year actually ; but I think that I can safely put it down at $500,000. Q. What portion of the fishery there carried on within the 3-milo limit is conducted by Americans in American vessels. What part of I this 8500,000 is represented by American capital? — A. My estimate is for lish taken by people residing on Grand Manan Island, and who are Iconsidered to be citizens. Q. Do any other people come there and fish? — A. Yes; some, but |i)ot many. Q. How many American boats and vessels come within the 3-mile llimit, otl Grand Manan Island, to fish, atul what is the value of their Icatchf — A. I do not know of an American vessel that fishes there .^^■within the 3 mile limit, that is, with lines. It may be, however, that nsnme vessels that came there line fishing last season set nets in there for the purpose of getting bait. I think it is quite likely that some of kliem liave done so ; I know that our weir fishermen supply most of the [vessels with bait. We sell them bait out of our weirs; we open an pccount with them when they come there. Q. Your experience, in this reganl, dates l)ack to 1845, and you have leeii weir-fishing all this time? — A Yes, principally. I (^ And you know something about the Gran«l Manan fisheries? — A. MS. 159 F leryJ lotiJ torn im M ii,i ii"jr<;^ ^Sf^ 2530 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 0 ■ li^im € ■^l Q. TLen state what portion of tlio fishery within the 3-niilt' limit there is carried on l»y Americans; give the value of the whole fishery, and say what proportion of the Ji'500,()00 is taken by Americans. — A. S„ part of that estimate, *."iOO,00(>, is caught by Americans. This ri'lat(> to what has been taken by our people on Grand Manan ; it covers th, whole ground. Q. And you say that the Americans do not carry on any fishery tln^ within li miles of the shore? — A. Yes; but some American vessels ijsi; oil' on the lianks. The value of the fish of all kinds taken aniuiallv within the limits oil (Iraiul Manan is $300,000 ; but no fish are taken there, to my knowledge, by American fishermen, in boats or vessels. Q. VViiat is the population of Grand Mauan? — A. "Mr. Lorimer, in iij* history of Grand .Manan, issued last year, gives it at about LMOOdr 2,500. Q. Do you know nuicli of the opposite side of the coast — Letitoaiul Lepreau, St. Andrew's and Deer Island, ^:c. ? — A. No, not a great dial. to my personal knowledge. Q. Are you not obliged to know something about the fishery on tli;i; coast, in connection with the management of your own business?— a AVe learn what they are doing over there, ami we secure reports in tli;< regard. For instance, if herring are caught there we naturally mak, inquiries concerning their quality and quantity and such matters, ainl as to how many are being put up, because we are interested in that branch of the business; but if I hear about the line fishing carried na there, I am not so immediately interested in that department, and 1 d not care so much about it. (}. How does the herring f shery on that coast compare with the her- ring fishery of Grand Manan Islaiid ? — A. Their liuo-fishiug is more ei I tensive than our<. but their smoked-herring business is not so extensive as ours ; they do not smoke as many herring as we do — at least I under- stand not, but I do not know that this is the case from my own personal knowledge. They, however, make line and net fishing more of a specialty than do our island people, ami they probably in winter uei| more herring for what is called the frozen-herring business. Q. Is the fishery carried on there of greater or less value than tliej Grand 3Ianan fishery ? — A. I do not think that there is a great deal of difFerence between the two. At least, I should not think so. The| extent of our smoked-herring business would very nearly otlset what they do more than our vessels in other branches, and I would not su| pose there would be any very great material difference between tliex two fisheries. Q. From your experience what do you suppose is the value of whole fisheries carried on from Grand 3Ianan Island up to and ali the whole of Charlotte County .' — A. I would not like to estimate it :ij more than 82,000,000. Q. That is for the whole fishery as mentioned ? — A. Yes, I should Siij it was overestimated at 82,000,000. I should think that one and tbre quarter millions of dollars would be the full extent of its value. Q. On that shore or up around Grand Manau do you believe it pos ble from anything you have seen that there is an Americau fislieij carried on there, and an Americau catch taken there, indepeudci altogether of the people of Grand Manan, and of the inhabitants of t' opposite from Letite of equal value with the British catch ? — A. No. Q. Or that if the value of the British catch there is a million, the val of the American catch there is also a million, and perhaps more ?— A-BJ*" ^ot 20 cents mo TLnbec man also ( Fe been paying ti, am confident lionest opinio Q. You say a long time. gold per box, not, this year Q. AVhyf- ket, ]/» cents a Q. ^Vould m Q. Why not understand it. Q- lixplain v ^rorked in my e (Jrand 3Ianan t tljere was an av and I have sold also selling hen I»is, and the rej tLat of Qnoddy about it, becaus* riJig in the Bost( price which the 1 Jluty at the Bosb lH)xes there in tb custom-house, an i came home min on Canadian fish, Q-. it the capta "btammg the sam u's pocket ?— A. ( Q. You thnsloi »i'; in otiier won {narket to take thi J uad to sell my fi Rv me no more t "IS, and he could get what he wante at tlie same price. V- ion do not b "«» mentioned ?— . ™..sly driven out tet-tbis IS the tru % Mr. Thou Q. Wd you ever. J-our fish did no J f to that extent hecase. It could this way: they ^^t, Which wa^ Q- Suppose that i c a AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2531 am confldetit that nothing of the kind is the case. I give this as my honest opinion. Q. Vou say you have been dealing in the smoked-herring business for along time. Would that business stand an additional tax of 5 cents in gold per box, which is the amount of tlie old duty ? — A. No, it could not, this year in particular. Q. Why? — A. We are only getting this year, in the American mar- ket, ir> cents a box for our best (luality of herring, after they are shipped. (]. Would not the customer have to pay tlie duty ? — A. I think not. {}. Why not? — A. My experience is to the contrary. I cannot so understand it. Q. Explain why you think so f — A. I will tell you how the matter has worked in my experience. I have shipped direct in my own vessel from (Iraiul Manau to Boston smoked herring with other kinds of Jish when there was an average duty of 5 cents in gold a box on smoked herring, and 1 have sold those herring alongsitle of a man from Lubec who was also selling herring. Mine were equally as good, or if not bettor than his, and the reputation of Grand Manan herring stands higher than that of Quoddy herring, as is known by everybody who knows anything about it, because we have a better quality of flsh. I have sold my her- ring in the Boston market alongside of Lubec herring, and for the same price which the latter obtained, while I also paid 5 cents a box in gold duty at the Boston custom-bouse. I once took a cargo of about 7,000 boxes there in the schooner Belle, and I left $350 in gold at the Boston custom-house, and if the consumer paid the duty I paid it also; and so I came home minus $350 in gold, which, if no duty had been imposed on Canadian fish, I would have had in my pocket. Q. If the captain from Lubec had gone there with the same cargo, obtaining the same price, he would have come away with these $350 in his pocket ? — A. Certainly he would ; that is clear. Q. You thus lost $350 ? — A. 1 did really lose it. Q. In other words, without reference to duty you had in the American market to lake the price which the American lisherman got there "i — A. I had to sell my flsh at the same price which ho got ; the dealer could j pay me no more than he paid him, for ray herring were no better than bis, and he could not afford to pay mo any more for them, as he could get what he wanted from American fishermen j so 1 was obliged to sell [at the same price. Q. You do not believe that the herring fishery could stand the addi- Itiou mentioned? — A. It could not. It really could not. We were i)re- Iviously driven out of the business of shipping fish to the Boston mar- |ket— this is the truth of it — until the renewal of reciprocity. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Did you ever reflect as to whether the imposition of a 5 cents duty |oQ your fish did not raise by so much the price of the fish, so that you M to that extent a higher price for your fish ? — A. I think this is not nhecase. It could not do so. The $350 were taken out of my pocket p this way : they had a sufficient quantity of fish in the American narket, which was kept supplied with all that was required at a certain trice. Q. What price did you get in that particular instance ? — A. I do not temember. Q. Suppose that flsh had been in such demand in the market that Joa got 20 cents more for them than you actually did receive, and that lie Lubec man also obtained 20 cents more; do you think that you would iave been paying the duty ? — A. Certainly I would. 2532 ▲WARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■■•**'''t1l %: Q. The American (iMberincn wnnt the duty back on flHh, I supposo?— A. I do not know ubout tliut, I am sure; but they naturally would wish to have it back again, I suppose, in order to exclude our tlsh from tlitir market. Q. I suppose that the consumer got h's llsh cheaper, owing to the removal of the duty and the admission of your ll.sh into the American market ? — A. The consumer would then get his Hsh cheaper — the inoiv lish that are put on the market the cheaper the consumer gets them. Q. Do you think that the effect of the duty would be to keep you out altogether ? — A. It would exclude us. Q. In that particular case did you lose money ? — A. O, I certainly did; that is, 1 lost money in this way : if my tish were as good — and they were so, of course — as those of my neighbor at Lubec, and U he sold his fish at 30 cents a box, and paid no duty, while I sold mine at 30 cents a box and paid 5 cents gold duty per box, 1 look upon it in this light, that I lost 5 cents in gold per box, which I would not have lost if I had operated on the American side. Besides there was quite a premium on gold at the time, and it cost me more to get my lish to the AmericaD market than it did the American to whom 1 refer. Q. We will grant, for the sake of argument, that you did lose A. I understand that I did lose money, certainly. Q. Do you mean that you really lost money ? — A. I lost it iu the sense I have mentioned. Q. And otherwise, did you make money ? — A. I certainly have made money in the smoked herring business. Q. iiut did you lose money on that particular transaction ? — A. 0, 1 really did make money on that transaction; that is clear; that is to say I made over and above a living, and I call that making money ; but I would have made more money if it had not been for the duty. Q. Would you have made any more with the duty off, if thfe priceof herring then fell 5 cents per box all rouud iu the American market ?- A. Certainly I would not ; that is clear. Q. The duty had rather the effect of putting money into the pocket of the Lubec iishermen than of taking it out of yours? — A. I think not; 1 do not see it iu that light. Q. On that particular transaction, at any rate, you made money !- A. I got over and above a living. Q. Why, then, did you say that you would be driven out of the Amer ican market? — xV. 1 say this would be the case if a prohibitory diity| •were put on. Q. Of course ; but do you say that the imposition of a five cents diitj would do so? — A. At the present time, with present prices of lisb, tha would do it ; we could not then operate in the American market, an we could not make a living. Q. Do you not think that the imposition of a five cents duty woiil raise the price five cents more in the American market? — A. No. Q. Why not? — A. I do not see any reason why that should bet case, because our fish are not wanted iu the American market. 0 fish go into that market as a surplus. Q. Then the result of this treaty is that the Americans get their fii a great deal cheaper than was the case before ? — A. There are tiiui when smoked herring are very plentiful on the American side, and th herring run low iu price. Q. Is not the result of the treaty, which admits your fish into t American market on equal terms with the American fish, to make tl price of fish lower in that market ? — A. It has that tendency evident! Q. Tlierefo deritly lie ^hn Q. It fnrth lose Nomcth in market, the 'A low pri(;e t 0 That is clear. Q- Tlniu thf the larger the be. M- Vou 8tat( from ;i.500,0(M) i 3lr. Trescot siu ?oii explain h( hody (»f the fisli - What is tl figure tliat up. Q- H'ould it i Q' ^Voul(^ aiM fifnuofi do not ni •? to $(50(),00(>, Imt according to the figures which you gave Mr. Trescot such annual value amounted in all to only 81.53,000; will vou explain how you account for the difference ? — A. That is for the body of the fish, apart from the value of the oil and sounds. Q. What is the value of the sounds ? — A. It would take some time to fij:ine that up. q. Would it amount to $r)0,00(» ?— A. No. (}. Woidd anything else be worth $50,(K)0 ? You see that all these figiues do not make 8200,000; now wliere do you get your $500,000 or .«iO(H),000 ? — A. I said I did not believe that it would exceed that, and I do not think that it will come up to that amount. Q. Is not $500,000 and $000,000 a mere random guess on your part? — A. I have no figures by which I know that it is correct. Q. The figures you have mentioned only bring such value up to ,4153,000, leaving a ditt'erenco of about $4.50,000 between that and 1000,000 ; the fact is that you have not made any accurate calculatiou about this at all ? — A. I have not ; no. Q. Do you know Walter McLaughlin, of Grand INEanau Island ? — A. Yes. • Q. He is a respectable man, is he not ? — A. Yes ; he has the reputa- tion of it. Q. And he is a truthful man ? — A. Yes. Q. You know that his business a,s fishery warden is to find out actu- lally what the catch is, and I suppose that you will not put your judg- iiientj in this respect, against his? — A. Well, that would depend on cir- I cumstauces. Q. Would you put your judgment as to the catch of Grand Manaa hgainst his, when it is his business to find out what it really is? — A. \^o; I do not think that 1 would. Q. Do you know Mr. Lord, of Deer Island ? — A. I do not, save from |reputation. Q. He has the reputation of being a straightforward man, has he Inotf— A. I never heard anything to the contrary. Q. Do you know James McLean, of Black Bay ? — A. Yes ; I am well lacquaiuted with him. Q. He is a very respectable man ? — A. He is. Q. And a truthful man, as far as you ate aware ? — A. He is ; yes. Q. As to the main-shore fisheries, of course you would not put your jipinion against that of Mr. McLean I — A. No; not with respect to some hings. Q. Surely you would not put your opinion as to the mainland fisher- ies against that of a man engaged in them, and who lives there? — A. Then I speak from personal knowledge of anything, and if in this Mr. tteLean's opinion differed from mine, I would give Mr. McLean credit [)r being truthful, and for not desiring to misrepresent the matter ; but, ■A m m f't ^.- -..■<■•£:.**• itih 2534 AWAKD OF THE FI8IIEKY COMMISSION. ii-^r' ^"■M^ at tlio isatne time, 1 would not submit to his judgnuMit iu Huuh r(>;,Mr(l as hviuii better tlian and Hiipcrior to niy own. I). Mo . is this a copy of it .'—A. It is. (). And that is correct .' — A. It is. {}. What was your share as sharesinau on the.Iuiiirttta, in 18 IS? — A. If ^\,l^ •r'til ; it inij^ht have lieeii soin«i low cents over. Q. Where were your lish chielly taken that year ? — \. We then (Ished on ll.iiiks Orphan and ilradley, and what wu call the Pi;;eon Hill (;n»iiii(i, whi ?— A. Tliree months. IJy Mr. Foster: (^». Mow Ion;; were you on the trip which you made into the s'df in tiic Wave in 1H.")1 * — A. Two and a half mouths. (J. What was your catch ? — A. L'SO barrels. (). What was your share ?— A. .'JSS.OD. (j). Where did you lish that year f^A. On IJanks Orphan and Ilrad- It'V and some at the iMay:st of 0 years that I was on that vessel, and I fished some iu October ou the ipe IJreton shore. (^ How far from the land did you fish off the Pigeon Hills ?— A. Some JorL'O miles, I thiid;, and along there. (i>. You have fished off the Uape Breton shore while vou were in the ,C. Parsons?— A. Yes. Q. 1 want you particularly to describe where you fished off that shore, illiow near the land you did so, making your statement in as much |\;*etail as possible. — A. Well, the first year iu which the li. C. Parsons ^liPame down there, we left home along about the middle of September, il we fished for a portion of the year at the Magdalen Islands, and wards the last of the trip in October we fished some around Margaree ^laud and Mabou. m I- ■rfJFA III ,.!•' i'.-^ iir Ki 4 2536 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ill' J m Q. now near to the shore did yon ttsli oflF Cape Breton ? — A. Well, we fished sometimes within a mile or 1^ miles of the shore, and at other times we llshed 4 or 5 miles from the shore. There were little banks otf tltere, and wo sometimes fished on them, 7 or 8 miles from the shore. i),. Off where ? — A. Off from the shore of Margaree Island. Q. Have you names for these little banks? — A. No; but we know the souiulings there and we often resorted to that place to fish. Q. If you are able to estimate at all the qnantity of mackerel which you caught within 3 miles of the shore off Margaree Island, or any. where about the Cape Breton coast, I would like to have you tell us all you can about it. We are confining ourselves to the fip^ m.ido on the K. C. Parsons? — A. I think that the first season we got 100 barrels, and I think that one-half of that trifle was caught within the 3 -mile limit, around Margaree, in what we call Broad Cove. Q. Now take your second year. — A. In 18-^3 we only made one trip and we fished np around the Banks. I think we went homo earlier than usual that year. We caught some mackerel on that side, but I do not recollect what quantity. We did not, however, get many that year on that shore. Q. What portion of these 120 l)arrels, in your jiulgment, was taken within 3 miles of the shore that year? — A. We might have caught n dozen barrels, or about that quantity, but I could not state it precisely now. Q. The following year, in the U. C. Parsons, you made two trips and got 300 hundred barrels; where did you catch them? — A. Mostly on Orphan Bank and the Pigeon Hill ground, I believe. Q. How late were you in the bay that year? — A. I think that we went out of it in the latter part of October; but I have not the exact date. Q. Did you fish at all in 1854 within 3 miles of the shore anywhere that you remember ? — A. Well, we might have tried for some fish in the lower part of the bay on the last trip when we were going home. Q. What do you mean by the lower part of the bay ? — A. The part down towards Port Hood. We sometimes fished oft" East Point. About j halfway across was a bank on which we fished sometimes. We also fished from that over to the Cape Breton shore. Vessels resorted there to fish. Q. You have no record of the number of barrels you took the last j year you were in the K. C. Parsons, though you have the UTnount of that j year's stock ; can you tell where you fished that year ? — A. W^ell, ' fished mostly over the same ground as previously ; during a part of that j year I fished at the Magdalen Islands. Q. Give us the length of the trip and the number of barrels per trip I which you caught while you were on the E. C. Smith? — A. We were | 5^ months out in 1856, that first year I was in her; we went in early, and we made two trips, which are put down as one in the stateineut.j We caught 000 barrels on the two trips — about 300 barrels each trip. Q. I see that you have not carried out the stock for that year ?— A. [| could not find it. Q. Do you remember where you finished that year? — A. I fished oiii Bank Orphan and caught some mackerel, about 50 barrels, in the I3ayj of Chaleurs, on that trip, I think. Q. How far were you up the Bay of Chaleurs ? — A. This was abovd Port Daniel, off Paspebiac. We caught some fish up there during on^ or two days. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2537 Well, nd at little % from know which ir iviiy- tell us ido on larrels, 3-inile lue trip earlier )ut 1 do uvt year bs taken ansht a )rec'.is('ly ;rips and lostly on that wc the exact Lny where sl'i in the e. [The part , About We also ted there the last I tit of that I , Well,' ivtofthat] p per trip I I We were! 1 in early, I katemeut. \i\\ trip. I tr?-A.[| Ifishcd oiil the Bayl [as ahovfl iiriug oD^ Q. Within what distance from the shore? — A. We were oft' in the middl'^ of the bay. 1 could not give the exact distance. Q. Do you remember at all the width of the Bay of Chaleura at that point ? — A. No; but I should think that it was some 7 or S rniles. Q, Were you ever in the Bay of Chaleurs during any otlier year ? — A. I have been in there for a harbor frequently. Q. Wiiere f — A. At Shippegan and Port Daniel. t). Have you ever fished there, that year excepted? — A. No; that was tl»e only year when I caught any fish there. Q. Did you at any other time try to flali there? — A. No; L do not know but that we might have done so when in a harbor, but E do not recollect of having tried there; that is the only year when I ever caught any lish in the Bay of Chaleurs to amount to anything. I). What was the result of your fishing the second year you were in the K. C. Smith ?— A. Q. How long were We then caught 02."> barrels; that was in 1857. you out? — A. 51^ months. We went out in the very first of the season, and we staid the season througli. I went away about the 1st of June or the last of May, and came out of the bay ill the last part of the season. Q. In November t — A. Yes. Q. What was the result of your tishing in 1858 ? — A. We then caught j.lO barrels. Q. What length of time were you out ? — A. During those years when 1 was exclusively fishing for niackerel we went into the bay in the very first part of the season. Q. You have the stock for 1858; what was the average price per barrel that year ?— A. $9.44. The stock amounted to $5,200. Q. Did you send any fish home that year ? — A. I did not. Q. Did you do so in 1858 ? — A. Well, I did not ship any home ; I did not land any to ship. Q. You brought the whole of the 550 barrels back with you ? — A. One year I shipped some with two of my brothers — 100 barrels with one, and 180 barrels, 1 think, with both. I took them out in the bay, and I do not know but 1858 was that year. Q. You transshipped them from one schooner to another in the bay ? — A. They took them on board there and I took their supplies ; that was the first of my shipping mackerel hom«ar8 captain, 6,( Tlie Conference uj lue examination t Ry Mr. Foste: Question. Will vo f.vear while you wei FPs; the first was cj F uarrels, as near paleurs, and the set !y.\V hereabouts d Jpoft Paspebiac, I I'tlie bay. H How near the si fyofChaleurs; it v pe4or5miIesofl- AWARD OP THE FISHERY COxMMISSION. 2539 firm from 18GS to tbe present time; is this a copy of that statement ? — A. Yes ; it is as follows : Bay-trips from 1868 to 1876, Inclusivo. Tear. 1-69. 1^71. 1-73. 1-74. 1b75.. Xo. of Tossels. bnti Total , I 46 No. of barrels Average of mackerel. pricu. 625 1, 0!»7 1, 038 1,413 789 2,291 2, 800 623 31!) (16 00 16 00 13 00 8 00 14 00 !t 25 6 00 11 33 10 30 10, 995 Shoro-trips from 1868 to 1876, inclusive. Year. N'.). of Vfssola. 1868 liJ69 2 1870 1871 1872 5 o ;t 1873 1874 4 5 1875 1876 6 4 Total 36 No. of barrels , Average of mackerel, price. 19, 387 1,961 $11 87 1,140 8 75 1, 852 8 61 1, 174 9 70 1,491 9 22 1,889 13 93 3,704 8 20 2, .531 9 *?1 3, 642 5 80 Number of barrels of shore mackerel packed from 186S to ISTfi Number of barrels of biiy mackerel packed from 1868 to 187().. Value of shore mackerel Value of bay mackerel 19, ;W7 10, 995 §17(5, 998 00 111,699 GO The following table contains a statement of tbe trips I made in the bay from 1848 to 1864, inclusive : Year. 1 1 Name of vessel. i Length of trip. No. of barrels. 1^49 3 months.. 2 J months. 2 months.. 3i months. 2 months.. 300 880 100 120 180 120 'eoo' 625 550 250 220 520 604 1,003 1,126 Ml . .. . Wave Shareman^s share, (88.69. Hi 1.53 . K. C. Parsons (12 men) do 1^54 .j do |stooked, $2,937.56. Average price, #9,90. 1*51 .1 do I5,i5 J do 4} months. 5i months. Two trips ; stock, (2,967.56. Ir56 1bo7 .' E.C. Smith (17 men) do liM do ..do Stock, (5,200. Average price, (9.44. 1>59 do 5 months. . 4 months.. 4J mouths 6 mouths.. 5^ months. . . ! . do ;•« do Stock, (1,8.tO. Average price, (8.40. Stock, (82,303.02. Average price, (4.43. m M2 .1 Kit Carson (19 men) do lia do Stock, (9,101.87. Average price, (9.07. Stock, (12,104.82. l!«1 do Sharesiiian from 1848 to 1851 ; captain from 18ri2 to 1864. Tliirteen years captain, 6,018 barrels. Average per year, 469. Wednesday, October 10, 1877. The Conference met. The examination of Svlvanus Sjiith was resnmeil. By Mr. Foster : • Question. Will you state where you caught your mackerel from year 0 year while you were in the E. C. Smith ? — Answer. In 185G we made two [rips; the first was cjjught on Bank Orphan, with the exception of about p barrels, as near as I can judge, which were taken in the Bay of flialeurs, and the second trip was caught at the Magdalen Islands. [Q. Whereabouts did you catch the fish in the Bay of Chaleurs * — A. ) otf Paspebiac, I think, or t^oug there. We were up in that section |ftbe bay. 1 Q. How near the shore were you ? — A. We wen^ in the middle of the pay of Chaleurs; it would be hard to judge the distance, but we were ke 4 or 5 miles oft" shore. 2540 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. .". :f«: i«\. !»':Li ^F^ m Q. How wide ia the bay there I — A. I do not recollect exactly, but I think it is some 10 miles ; that is, if my recollection is correct. It is some time since I was there. Q. Where did you catch your mackerel in 1857 ? — A. On Banks Orphan and Bradley and at the Magdalen Islands; and along in the fall, about the time we went home, we fished towards the Gape Breton shore. Q. Did you fish off the Cape Breton shore ? — A. I do not recollect of catching many mackerel there in 1857, but we then took a few off Mabou, I think ; we might have caught 50 barrels or so off that shore that year, but as to this I have to depend on my memory. Q. When did you go towards the Cape Breton shore? — A. could not tell you now just the time, but we usually got there by the 10th or tlie 15th of October. Q. What harbor did you make there ? — A. Port Hood usually. Q. Where did you catch your mackerel in 1858 ? — A. We fished during the early part of the season on what we call the Pigeon Hill ground and on Bank Orphan; and after September we went to the Magdalen Islands. (}. Did you fish off the Cape Breton shore in 1858 on your way home ?— A. We are almost always in the last part of the season — because the weather then becomes blowy — down about that way for a spell ; I think we caught some there that year, though I cannot recollect exactly, but I would not set the quantity at over 50 barrels. Q. How long did you stay in the vicinity of Port Hood whither it was your habit in the autumn, while on your way home from the fishing grounds, to go ? — A. We gener.ally made Port Hood our harbor when there in bad weather ; we would sometimes go in there when it was stormy, and then afterwards go out to grounds some distance off to fish ; we generally made that our harbor for about two weeks in the last part of the season. Q. You have described generally your fishing grounds for the rest of the season ; and now explain at what different points in the vicinity of Port Hood you used to fish ? — A. We sometimes tried along the Mar- garee shore ; and if we did not find anything there, we would then go off to the Magdalen Islands, or fish half w.ay across between the Cape Breton shore and the Magdalen Islands, where there are good fishing grounds. We used to try there, as it used to be a very good fishing ground. Q. This was half way across between Margaree Island and the Mag- dalen Islands ? — A. Yes. Q. What fishing ground is situated there I — A. I do not know of any particular bank there, but we find that it is on the route by which the mackerel come down the bay from the north ; they are often met with there, and when they do not strike the shore, good fishing is to be had in that quarter. Q. Did you fish closer to the shore off Margaree Islands than else where? — A. We did ; sometimes we fished there within two miles of the shore and sometimes four or five miles off. ♦ Q. In 1859, you caught 250 barrels in five months ; where were they taken ? — A. We had a very hard year that year, and we picked our fish | up so slowly, that I can hardly call to mind where we got them. Dur ing five months we filled up the small nun^ber of barrels mentioned, and I we fished mostly at the Magdalen Islands, though we may have caught some few elsewhere; but still I cannot call to mind any particularly j definite amount in this regard. Q. Did 301 we were a lor Q. WJiat (] most always j but I am not i Q. AVhat is barrelvs, I thin Q. When w Q. Where j Islands. Q. In 18G0 .1 taken f—A. TV Q. Did you always tried ti off the Cape Bi Q. What is day near Marg that shore the Q. Was this was caught the miles of the she Q. Of the is) Mabou ; the bai 100 wash-barrel Q. Is there a ( they pack out ? about 75 sea-bai Q. And what pack out at hom more. Q. In 1861 yo barrels ; where t the Magdalen Isl Q. Did you fis I never fished th( fish there. Q. Did you tr passed along, but Q. Did you flsl Hood, off the Cai between Port Ho Q. Wbere is d ward Island, abot Q. You now me nsherman's Bank By Hon. Ml Q. Do you refer ilabou ?— A. I me !Uve, east of Port By Mr. Fost I Q- Did you fish one fish there. Q- The seconds 'vliere were they t ye a AWARD OF THE FISHEKY COMMISSION. 2511 Q. Dill 3'ou get any large catches at any place that season? — A. Noj we were a long time in the bay, and we only got a few mackerel. Q. What do you call a large day's catch if — A. 30, 40, or 50 barrels ; most always a catch of that kind will remain in my mind pretty well ; but I am not so likely to remember small catches. Q, What is the biggest catch which you ever made in a day ? — A. 120 barrels, I think. Q. When was this ?— A. In 1804. Q. Where abouts were they taken? — A. Broad off the Magdalen Islands. Q. In 1860 you caught 220 barrels in four months ; where were they taken ? — A. We fished at the Magdalen Islands the most of that year. Q. Did you try that autumn off the Cape Breton shore ? — A. We most always tried there ; but I do not recollect catching any fish that year off the Cape Breton shore. It was a very poor year down there. Q. What is the largest number of barrels you remember taking in a day near Margaree Island ? — A. I caught 100 barrels during one day on that shore the last time I fished there. Q. Was this within the three-mile limit? — A.^ I think a portion of them was caught there; during the fore part of the day we were within three miles of the shore. Q. Of the island or mainland ? — A. We were within three miles of Mabou ; the barrels in question were wash-barrels, not sea-barrels, and 100 wash-barrels would pack out about 75 sea barrels, probably. Q. Is there a difference of one-quarter between wash-barrels and what tbey pack out? — A. I should judge that 100 wash-barrels would be about 75 sea-barrels. Q. And what is the difference between sea-barrels and what they pack out at home ? — A. It Is usually one-tenth, and sometimes a little more. Q. In 18G1 you were in the Kit Carson, and in 4^ months took 520 barrels ; where did you catch them ? — A. We fished that year around the Magdalen Islands during the whole season. Q. Did you fish at all that year around Prince Edward Island ? — A. I never fished there to get any mackerel. I have tried, but I never got flsh there. Q. Did you try there that year ? — A. I might have tried some as I passed along, but I never fished there much any way. Q. Did you flsh the first year you were in the Kit Carson near Port Hood, off' the Cape Breton shore ? — A. We fished some oft" that shore, between Port Hood and Cape George during the last part of the season. Q. Where is Cape George ? — A. Between Port Hood and Prince Ed- ward Island, about half way across. Q. You now mention another fishing ground ; what is it called ? — A. Fisberman's Bank ; it lies half way between Souris and Cape George. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. Do you refer, when speaking of Mabou, to ]\Iabou Kiver or to Cape Mabou ? — A. I mean Cape Mabou, a high bluS" at the entrance of Broad love, east of Port Hood and of Mabou River. By Mr. Foster : Q. Did you fish at the mouth of Mabou River ? — A. I never saw any one flsh there. Q. The second year you were in the Kit Carson you caught 604 barrels ; where were they taken ? — A. All the years I was in her I fished invari- Iii9s m 2542 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. .f.i':5^!U4*|^i* it^isiii ;;j;:4i'ii.Mti 1 ably at the Magdalen Islands, except for a short time at the last part of the season, when we tlshed down about the Cape Breton shore. Q. Then, shall we understand that during all the years you were in the Kit Carson your exclusive fishing ground was in the vicinity of the Magdalen Islands except late in the autumn ?— A. While on that ves sel I never fished anywhere else, that is, to catch any fish of any account, except late in the autumn, when almbst every year I caught some mack- erel about the Cape Breton shore; not always inshore, but sometimes close inshore, and at other times, perhaps, some distance oflf ; and then we would make Port Hood our harbor in bad weather. Q. You speak of never having ciinght any fish off Prince Edward Island when in your last two vessels, part of which you owned, I think, the E. C. Smith and the Kit Carson ?— A. Yes. Q. Those were large vessels? — A. Yes. Q. Did you ever fish in those vessals within three miles of the shore and catch any fish off Prince Edward Island ? — A. I never did. I might have hove to and caught a few scattered fish there, but I never cauglit enough to detain us there. Q. Were you in the habit of resorting to harbors on the north side of Prince Edward Island ? — A. I was never in those harbors with those vessels, save two or three times at Malpeque while in the first one. Q. During the years of your fishing experience, what is the largest number of United States fishing-vessels that you have seen together at one time, so far as you can judge ? — A. Well, I do not know exactly, but I should think I have seeu 200 together at one time. Q. Where ? — A. At the Magdalen Islands. Q. What is the largest number of United States fishing-vessels, ac- cording to your best inforoiation, that was ever in the Gulf of St. Law- rence in any one year fishing — speaking from what you have persoually observed, and what you have learned from others 1 — A.. I never took the matter much into consideration, but there may have been at times, perhaps, 400 such vessels in the bay. I have, however, no definite knowledge on the subject. Q. What is the greatest number of vessels of all descriptions that you ! ever knew to be there ? — A. There was quite a large fleet of provincial vessels there at one time, besides ; I should think that their number | was 100 or 150. Q. When was this ? — A. I do not recollect the exact year, but I can | refer back to the vessel in which I was then to help my memory a little. I should think that this was somewhere in 1855 or 185G, or along there. Q. When you fished, did you usually fish with the greater part of the | Gloucester fishing fleet ? How many was the largest number of Glou- cester fishing-vessels that was ever there in one year, in your judg- ment ? — A. 1 can answer that merely by guess-work, having no statis-| tics to guide me ; and I could not tell the number. Q. Were you usually fishing with the Gloucester fleet ? — A. During! the last 5 or 0 years that I fished in the bay, I fished in company otj the greatfir^part of the Gloucester fleet. Q. What, then, was the chief fishing ground of the Gloucester fleetl u I'lug the last few years that you were fishing? — A. The Magdaleaj ': -: lUih. *. Have you any means of knowing how many of the Gloucester fleetl .T^'?!-. fishing at the Magdalen Islands at the time of the gale in August,| 1873, when a good many went ashore there ? — A. I do not know the number, but the largest part of the fleet was then there, I think ; my own VQpsels in particular were all there. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2543 Q. How many vessels did you then have there ? — A. Five or six, 1 think. % Q. It has been stated that 28 Gloucester vessels then went aground at tlie Magdalen Islands ; how many of your vessels then went aground ? — A. One. Q. One out of five or six ? — A. Yes ; and the captain got her afloat in a couple of days, Q. Can you tell how many Gloucester fishing-vessels are in the Gulf of St.' Lawrence this year? — A. I cannot. Q. Nor last year? — A. 1 could do so only as regards my own. Q. How many had you there last year ? — A. Three ; and I have two tliere this year. Q. And how many the year before last ? — A. Three. Q. During the last 10 years that you fished in the Gulf of St. Law- rence, you had the right, under the Reciprocity Treaty, to fish anywhere in the bay ; how, then, did it happen that you did not fish much during this period within three miles of the shore in British waters? — A. Well, we fished where we could find the most fish, and I suppose that the uiost fish were on the grounds on which we fished. Q. Have you the result of your trips made to the Gulf of St. Law- rence and on the American shore since your fishing firm was organized iu 1808 T — A. I have them made up. Q. How many vessels did you have in the gulf in 1868 1 — A. Five ; we landed 625 barrels ; average price, $16. • Q. The whole five vessels only caught 625 barrels! — A. Yes. Q. How many vessels did you have that year on our shore? — A. Five. Q. How many barrels did they land? — A. One thousand nine hun- dred and sixty -one ; average price, $11.87. Q. How many vessels did you have in the gulf in 1809 ? — A. Seven ; they lauded 1,097 barrels ; average price, $16. Q. How many did you have on the American shore ? — A. Two : they landed 1,140 barrels ; average price, $8.75. Q. How many vessels did you have in the gulf in 1870 ? — A. Seven ; they landed 1,038 barrels ; average price, $13. Q. And how many on our shore ? — A. Five ; they lauded 1,852 bar- rels ; average price, $8.61. Q. And in 1871 ? — A. We then had five vessels iu the bay ; they landed 1,413 barrels; average price, $8. Q. How many had you on our shore? — A. Two; they landed 1,174 barrels ; average price, $9.70. Q. And in 1872? — A. We then had three vessels in the bay and three on our shore ; the former landed 789 barrels, average price, $14 ; and the latter 1,494 barrels, average price, $9.22. Q. And in 1873? — A. We i^hen had six vessels in the bay and four i on our shore ; the former landed 2,291 barrels, average price, $9.25 ; I and the latter 1,889 barrels, average price, $13.93. Q. And in 1874? — A. We then had seven vessels in the bay and five loft our shore ; the former landed 2,800 barrels, average price, $6 ; and j the latter 704 barrels, average price, $8.20. Q. And in 1875? — A. We then had three vessels in the bay and six Ion our shore ; 4;he former landed 623 barrels, average price, $11.33; and |tbe latter 2,531 barrels, average price, $9.81. Q. And in 1876 ? — A. We then had three vessels in the bay and four Ion our shore ; the former landed 319 barrels, average price, $10.20; and |tbe latter 3,642 barrels, average price, $5.80. Q. How does the result of those years sum up ? — A. The average -"^ ■M'^ •fShei^^^'^' i&)> '^^^ $lm ^J¥' ''3 ¥1^. f^ •M^ ■>' :i^' 1 A' t II, - \»i 2544 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. catch in tbe bay per vessel during these ten years was 239 barrels, and such average on our shore was 538^ barrels ; the result of the stock of the vessels which fished on our shore exceeded that of those which fished in the bay by $(55,29{). Q. I notice that since your fishing firm was organized the mackerel which have been taken on the United States shore have not brougiit so much by the barrel as the bay mackerel ; will you explain the reason for this ? — A. In the early part of the year the catch of our vessels was quite large and ]>rices then run low, while the mackerel caught then are small and of poor quality, so that though the average number of barrels taken on our shore is larger, the price realized has beeu smaller on the average. il. Compare the prices of the shore and bay mackerel for the months extending from the time when fishing usually begins in the bay — trom June out to the end of the season. — A. Our bay fishing commeuces about the 1st of July, and I have only the figures for the whole catch. Q. I only want to know whether the shore or the bay mackerel would sell at the higher price during those months? — A. Our shore cues fetch the most money. Q. Suppose that you can catch mackerel on the United States shore at the same time that you do so in the bay, and then compare the prices of these mackerel caught from that date onward ; would the shore mackerel be more or less in price than the biiy mackerel f— A. «Well, I do not know that I could answer that question ; I have never figured it up, and I have no statistics to guide me to a conclusion re specting it. Q. How many vessels have you in the Gulf of St. Lawrence this year? — A. Two. Q. What are their names? — A. The EttaGott and the Margie Smith, Q. What has been the result of their voyages ? — A. The Etta Gott has landed and shipped home 220 barrels, caught at the Magdalen Islands and Bird Kocks. Q. How do you know where they were caught ? — A. From what the captain has written me, and what my brother, who was in the vessel and who came home, has told me. Q. Did the Etta Gott go seining? — A. No, she went with hooks and lines. Q. How was it with the other vessel? — A. She went out on the same day and carried a seine. I heard from her a day or two before I came away, and she then had GO barrels. Q. Do you know where she had been fishing? — A. Yes; around Prince Edward Island. Q. How do you know that ? — A. From letters which were frequentiv sent me. Q. During how many years have you been in the habit of using a| seine on the United States shore ? — A. Some 10 years. Q. And has a large part of the mackerel which has been caught oi that shore during the time that your present firm has existe ;' — A. Six nr seven, I think, but I could not give the nundier exactly. Q. If the iigures that are {;iven me are c«)rrect, yon must have liad more than that ; 1 will name them over. Was the Winded Arrow (tin- of the vessels you had in the gulf that year ? — A. Yes. Q. And the lOureka anotlier ? — A. She was owned by the master, hut was lifted out by us. Q. Was the Ada L. Harris another ;' — A. Yes. Q. And the Areijuipa another .' — A. Yes. (i. Had you the A. ,1. Franklin also there ? — A. Y<>s. Q. And the Uridget Ann .' — A. She was owned by the master, Imt fitted out by us. Q. And the Northerner .'—A. Yes. Q. And the Alleretta .' — A. Yes; the captain, howiver, owned part of her. Q. And the Colonel Ellsworth ?— A. Y'es. Q. Several of these were owned by you and the rest you fitted out ?— A. Yes. Q. These vessels are put down as having taken out licenses in l.'^(i(i: who paid for these licenses, and how were these paynjents charged .'— A. My impression is that they were charged to the stock of the vessels, Q. So that one-half of their cost was paid by the men ?— A. That is iny impression. Q. Explain why you took out licenses in 18(5G, when it was the habit of your vessels to tish at the places you have mentioned. — A. Well, we thought it was better for the vessels to take out licenses to avoid aii.v liability of seizure which they might incur and to save them from pos sible annoyance. Q. When you were in the bay befoie the Keciprocity Treaty, did yon observe any cutters there .' — A. O, yes ; fre(iueutly. I saw them ami was boarded by tham. Q. But your vessel was never seized ? — A. No ; but I tvas threatened with seizuie. Q. Why ? — A. I was once up in the Bay of Chaleurs ; we were iu a harbor during a storm, and on coming out the ollicer of a ciittir boarded our vessel ami other vessels, for (juite a fleet had run down there, and he used pretty violent language. He said that he would seize my vessel if he caught her in there again, and he indorsed a paper stating that the vessel had been boarded. Q. in what harbor had you been ? — A. Shippegan. Q. Had you been fishing in the Bay of Chaleurs ? — A. No. Q. What had the other vessels which were with you been doing ?— A. All of them, 40 or 50 in number, I should thiuk, went iu for a harbor. Q. Did you hear of vessels beiug seized for curing mackerel inshore that they had caught off shore ? — A. I heard such a report on the lisbiii;; | grounds ; but that is not to ray present knowledge. Q. Did you hear of commanders of cutters levying contributions onl some masters of fishing vessels, compelling theui to give from 5 to U' atui -0 barrels ( A. I heard thai till' (islicMiien ii m fills regard, . I have ri'j till' (Icfails, alth till' Mia.sfor of fii i). Those stati iriic, whcdu.,. Ml liiil I cannot say V. 'n I,S(i7, til )■ And also f| 't*. Voii do not No. i ivtiild nof t( 'i'- Wlio |„„l ,. iHiokkccpor, Air. ,] 'i*. I>id you tiik ^now that we did 'Ih' (inn, tlijit I ^]^ ''" "of '^iiy that ii ''""•y'l I instnicfi *i- Can yoii tell '•'III xli<»ie this yoai 'i'- n(»w niaiiv V yriiroti our shore : 'i*- Voii donor ki li'ivc done very we Jlit'.v have, howevi 'i*- How iiiaiiv bi 'il';*' ill a flip ii," tin l'i"'i'!il)Ie fo the OM '"K't'f lliem must f I't'i' 1111(1 .-,(»(), tonia Q. During what |tnt). '»•• This is a St Jilt !«!;''--A. Yes; it i Mvi'h the bills th JMiiif Lawrence. '''vIcaiiM'away frl ;• And on what- 'i'; 'explain the iti N.kcivl, worth iiiK '"'ii hariid, makinx. ''''^"ig >^mo. This "-'lal tones, onei >'• «<»n have givei ";'•<'>'; " hieh ruled tl {• i'iiar is withoui Y' \\ iiat woiUd be ' I'e <;f the gross sti /• ^''^>w what the "•'^i'^^iiinstthovov} ''"^ "orth $(> a bari AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2547 ami 2(» burrt'lsof mni'kerel, uiidor pain of csipture on rofnsftl to «lo so ? — A, I lii'iinl tliiit this was tlio caso ; that wm the connnon roport anion;:; tlic (islicrnuMj in the bay at tho tinio; bnt I have no personal knowledge III tills reprard, {). I have read from the 4S7tli page of Sabine's report, which gives till' details, althongh it docs no; inentioti any name. — A. I think that the iiiiister of the vessel titat did so was(Ja|)tain l)arl)y. (^>. Tliose statements were believed by the American lishcrmen to bo iiiic, whether this was th(M!ase or not? — A. We believed the stories, but I cannot say whether they wmv. trne or not. i}. hi lS(i7, the license-fee was raised to $1 a ton, and then three ves- sels connected with your lirni apparently took ont licenses. Was tho Altoiiii your vessel ? — A, Yes. (,». And also the Winged Arrow and Aiferetta ? — A. Yes, {). Yon do not remember whetlu'r tliey took ont licenses or not ? — A. Nil. I could not tell. {). Who had charge of the books of your first firm / — A. We had a liiiokkci'per, Mr. Jordan, who w.is also on»^ of the partners. I). Did yon take ont any licenses in IStJS .' — A. I think not ; I do not kiiiiw that we did so, but 1 would state, as chief owiuu" of the vessels of till' tirin, that I did iH)t wish them to take out licenses that year; still [ ill) not sijy that in sonui instam-es they might [not] have been taken, ihiiu^li 1 instructed the captains not to do so. (^». Can yon tell the result of the voyages of your vessels on the Ameri- iMii siiore this year ? — A. No, 1 have no statistics in this connection. {). How many vessels have you had engaged in mackerel fishing this yiiir oil our shore '. — A. Only two. i). You do not know whether they have done well or poorly ? — A. They liiivc (lone very well lately, bnt in midsummer they (I'd not do much. Tlicy liiive, however, made very good cat(;hes duriug the last four weeks. i). How many barrels of maijkerel do you think that a schooner must iiikc ill a flip in the Ciulf of Saint Lawremie in order to make the result ||iiotit!il)le to the owner .' — A. Our best vessels ure of about 7o tons ; and mil' ot liicm must take not less than 400 biirrels, or between that num- licr Mild ."tUli, to niiike anv kind of a i»a\ing vovage, (^ This is a statement of the expenses connected with such a voy- ]:i;;i'.' — A. Yes ; it is a statement of a suppositions fishing-voyage made |ii|i Willi the bills that would be necessary for such a tri)> to the Gulf of Mint Lawrence. It is based on the jirice which mackerel brought tho lav I ciime away from home and for which bay trips then sold. . And on wliat catch is it based? — A. A catch of 400 barrels. . Kxplain the items. — A. The vessel would land L'OO barrels Xo. 1 [iiiiukcivl, worth >fUi a barrel, making $3,200; 100 barrels No. 2, worth a barrel, making >*1,000; and 100 barrels No. 'A, worth !?() a barrel, liiiikiiij; *. Von have given the actual |iricesof such mackerel? — A. Y'es; the liiti's whii'li ruled the day I left home. •i'. Tiiat is without the charge of packing ont ? — A. Yes. . yiiow w hat the crew and captain would respectively get. — A. The lis a^'ainst the voyage, based on actual prices, are 40 barrels of porgy [iiir, worth $(> a barrel, making $240. I bought some bait a few days During what length of time? — A. The season; a four months' t4. Ill K 'Ti '11 .lil ■^51 s 2548 AWARD OF TIIK FIHIIKUY COMMI88ION. -f^'ilft bef a barrel, would amount to $700. That is the actual present charge this season for packing', as luado by all the llrnis. Q. It includes the price of the barrels ? — A. Yes. The stock char^jcs would hence amount to )j, and the net stock would consei|Uentl,v Ih $3,78U, the crew's half amounting to $I,S<.M); and this, divided amorit; lii hands, which number would be necessary on a vessel of that size, would leave )|I11H.12 for each nnin. Q. At what Jljjmc •• H'liat is em value of the liiiJI put on board of J Q- And how nii '»'• 'Mhatafaii I conNidiT t|,.,t jt Q- 's it a large covers the actual < tlio vessel returns Q. The charter < not .'-A. This is t . Q- Proceed to tli ^-'.^I^.JO; his half '«»I,-soo, and this, Q- So that if a u '""iiths, and got 40( f'|".e, J»ut lose mon( »'"til» I did not re.-u the net stock, .^3 7si Q. That is iu add ^i- Suppose that ':o,st?<7,ouo, w|jatw( ngbt along from ye« ''f;^^<«^,a8afairam y. ilow much woi penes of years, perh; I -'0 might be a fair) "'"^M have prepare NEW SC wools, of clam bait, at, c;> %a«o for barrels ami J, Stoclt charges.... E:2,n'.'-"el,&c.,forlc| ^ff^l-provisions bought ^ AWAUD OP THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. •2549 fif. CoiiM one bo bnilf for less now ? — A. 1 think not. I had n vossol ot tliiit si/.«« built liiNt spi'in^^, and Hhu uo8t nii; nioru money — shu cost some *7,."»(M>, or more. (| I'roeeed witli your stiifc^nent. — A. I put down as iuHurunneon the oliiuti'r and outlits, inehidin^ barrels, ii*l(M.L'(>, wlii<;h is based on ( per (I'lit. lor tlie voyage; the rate we charge in our olllco lor a voyage of that kind. {}. Vou charge I per cent. Cor I months ? — A. Yes. (}. For how mjicii do you insure with these $101.20? — A. A little short of )*:\,()m. {). Wouhl it not be about Al',.')0(> ?— A. I guess it would. {}. What is embraced in the policy ot ii00 * It does not cover the viiliu' of the hull of tlw^ vessel ;' — A. No; but it Includes the material |iiit oM board of her for her voyage. (f. And how much do these expenses sum up ? — A. 82,215.10. (^>. Is that a fair policy to take by the charterer of the vessel ? — A. Yes; I consider that it i.s. {}, Is it a largo or small ostintate ? — A. It \h not a largo ono ; it only tovt'is the actual out lit and charter for which he is liable to pay, whether tiie vessel returns or not. Q. The charter of the ve.ssel is to be paid for whothor she i.s lost or uol .'—A. This is the ca.se up to the time when .she is lost. Q. Proceed to the next item f — A. The charterer's expenses amount to A:*,-'! 5.40 ; his half of the stock with which he ha.s to pay these expenses is?!l,S!)0, and this shows a loss of i5!325.40. (^. 8o that if a man had a vessel and j)aid i!tl,000 for her for four iii()iith.s, and got 400 barrels of mackerel, he would gain nothing for his time, but lose money ? — A. Yes ; and there are some otiwr expenses wliich I did not read ; there is the master's commission of i percent. ou tiie net stock, !!<3,7SO, and that amounts to $151.20. Q. That is in addition to his share? — A. Yes. Q. Suppose that a man owned his own vessel, which was new, having cost $7,000, what would be a fair percentage to charge for depreciation rij,'ht along from year to year ? — A. I have made it up, and put it down at -iJdO, as a fair amount for depreciation for a voyage of four months. (iJ. How much would that be by the year ? — A. If Ave take it for a I mm of years, perhaps it would not be so much in proi)ortion ; perhaps I ?i()0 might be a fair depreciation for a number of years. This statement which 1 have prepared is as follows: NEW SCUOONKR, CUAltTKUKD. TONNAOK, 70 TONS. For four monthn' maclercl-fixhing in Gulf of St. TMwrence in 1877. STOCK CHAItOES. hObbk of porgy bait, at $6 §240 00 lllibbls. of elam bait, at §;« *^0 00 jEspeuse for barrels and packing 400, at |1 .75 700 00 Stock charges 1,020 00 OUTFITS AND KXPEN.SKS. iPinvisions, fnel, itc, for IG men, 4 months, at 40 cents per tlay each $700 00 pbblH. Liverpoolsalt 120 00 iBait-mill |1.', fishing gear $50 65 00 ICiistom-honse and port charges 15 00 iFresb provisions bought in bay 60 00 4« ^1 ■'-. ■i3M!- J :iii .•1! ^5H,-fr i\ , AP- III ■-1(1;' 1 illill •Jf)50 AWAKIt OK Tlir, I'MHIIKKY foMMlHHION. ( Mini tor (»l m'JuHHicr. I intmlliH. iil $".'Mt I,"i'ii. tiiNiir:iiiin iliiMliM' iiiiil imiIIIIm, IiioIiiiUiik will) Hliovii—ltiUioU #lii) SU)|hh>inIiIii or ihiiwIoi'm ('oniinlNNiiui dii iioI NtofU iJll.T"^!!, ul I |M\l>i #:i.'.'(Mi tiMl IiIiIn. til No. V iniii'Ki'ii al .>l(i.... 1, 01 HI iiii 10(1 lilt)N, of No. :iniiit-^(l (III .Vnioitiii ol' oliiirloroi'N IwiH' 1, Aniouiil ol' (MOW .s luill. I, ^W nil t^W no Total not nIoiU 'A, Crow's linir '. I. ■^(1 nil 'INI |iii Avorago hIihi-o ^ ir> liaiuls^ II s r.' ("liartortM'.s o\; onson , I'liailoroi'.s voooi|>l,s I, ssHi (III 1, OSS, wJiliiuM I inoutlis mlorosl on on illU.' l»i; \ l>.s| I, s Al < (U Nl. Cli. 'l\^ uisnviiiioo on >.7,('(lti, l"'.iir inoiillis, Ml 1 por «c'iil . Tmxos on ^li,^Hlll, li>nr Mv olimlor Sl.iHiii im months, i llionNiinil . It S'!^ por Inlorosi on ?!7.('iM>, I'onr months, at T por ooni. por aniuim I'opvoii.'H ion on \ «>ssol hnir inontM.s (ss»>l ' — A. I think si) ; i( would ho tiiidt'r ratlior tiiaii over juMual dt^pivriation diiriiiii' that tiiito. l^>. t>uppost' a luan owiiod a v«»s.<»>l and «Mijd jn hirsiiicss witli lici. or (.'harttMt'd hor, durinji' how many months in th(> yviw can lu^ oxpi'tl In oarii luonoy with hor : can ho so earn dnrino; tlic wliolo twclviMil llu'lselj nioiith>« .' — A. Slic will have to be laid up lor three or four inonliis iii tlii'|tli Near, soiuetimes loiijier or not so lony ; but, si)ealviii{'' j;onerall.v, this will bo the case lor tour months. i). riieu a ves.sel that is charU>red would not earn charter inoiic.v fori more than iiim' months in a year .' — A. This \\H)uld not bo the case liii| over nine months and perhaps it would fiu' less tiiaii that. Q. I'hartered at the rate of ^Jol), a ve.ssel would earn i?2,-*r>0 a yciii. Jsid What insurance would the owner have to pay to cover him on a vcsst'l worth s'T.iKH) lor nine mouths in the year, while under charter ?— A.| About 7 per cent., I think. '.». I'' /', Im' Ik'.sI wIh'ii Ih .vciir \\(> c(niNide . \Vhyf-_A. «<•( ii port ion; n I'llsiiifss, W'l,,., 'iioi'c siicccsn/'iiI '"■'"Ivi't docs iiol *»*• ^Miy not ;'- ""'" <'.t( the (ish, *f- \^■ho eat th I""""" or (hi,s,,, '^ Vre IJMiN,. ,. ""''•' v<'i'y Ik lie, 'i>. .Mess ;iii„.|, "' "i.'il eN tlu, •'"<'" iiiosr on oiii ^*- '"^'ow, ill IjlL'O "i'"'.v iMrrels woi '"'"<"• iMrrels wo, <'i;p>.,r upward. "i'\<^ yon ici "J'" iiKain, with ' ''•"•loiMil (hat a, '"'•"'' ill Ncllin^r V- Vou ,s,.|| „„„.) ontiM' N,.„. Vork ^^■'i"l /-oiiLs. '»*• Vou mention, '•'•''■'••le (plant ilv '"'"' to the Com.i '7\l>"nnffthe V- At What ])ricf It 1)11 llVl'V llu'V, 1 HI"! AWARD OK TIIK KIHUKUY COMMIHHION. 25r»i ^}. I'or nliio iMonlliNt A. Y»>m {f. |''«)i' liow iiiiHili woiihl Im^ liiMiiir Mi<> vvNS)*) ? — A. l''(>r MS(>nii>\vlirroiil>onl #.'()>, I Uiinlt. I>o,vihi tmiau lor llio wiioiu voir ■. if. V(>m; I vviuil (o H(>o liow llio owner wlio |hiIm ii<7,(KM> in nioimy into ;i v<'ssin'<'ntii;;n ol llii' polii^v ol' InMniiinrr miiHl. ho l()s«< in oriirr to riM'ovrr valuo iindrr IIk^ policy? — A. AImmiI I'J \n\t' mil. on a vrNscI of tliiit il«>H(^ri|»tion. Am ii vcnscI i^rowH older Hie riilo IS lii^^lier, iiimI llien i( ninK<'M i'roni t'J lo L'O per cctit. on nimIh )in«l rig- ^iiijr. (). 'I'hiil is I lie iinioMul on I In- vesNel wliicli ran not l>e iiiHJerwritlen ? — A. Tiieie lian («> hi> llnit< anionnt taken olV ln-lore tlie roinpan.y IioMh llsrit reMponsiitU'. i). ho .yonr poliries eo\er Hie value of eiiiiles aiitl i i;4;;ini^' '/-— A. No; Unit is a total loss. {}. II' the KKHiarrelsorniaekerel were eaii^lit. in less than I'oiir niontliM, tilt' lly:nies would iir altered and llie expenst^s wmild lie IrsH .' -A. V<'H. (}. Mow would lliis he on Hie whole ? —A. I* voiild iiol, Ite propoit ioii- ;ilt>lv less, il' oiittlls were lakeii lor a. vo.v^e ol" that kind; hut lor ii sliinl voyage the expenses nii;;ht he sonieihiiiK less. (,). How niiieli tni>st niiu'kerel sell lor a. harrel to make the hiisiiK^HK ii siirci'sslul our lor t!i«« inereliaiil A. Well, we <^onsider the. hiisiiiess to III' hi'st when Hie pris are low and the r(^ evenly dislriluih'd ; all ]H'\ a portion; and we lind that siieli years make Hie. Iiest years in Him Im.siiiess. Wln-n llla^.kel'(^l are. down t,o ijtil or )! a harrel, we, mak^ iiiitre sueeesstui voyages, hut when high pric^es rule, we llnd that/ \\n; iiiiiikel «|oes not lake a, large «pianlily ol llsli. i). \\ hy not ! — A. I do not know, save. it. Imi hecau.se the, people won't tlicii eat the lisli. (). Who eat Hi«^ eomnion niaekeiel ; where do these go? — A. /\ great poiliDU ol' this quality ol' maekerel goes to the Southwest, and West. if. .Vre these «'alen in Ww New laiglaml States?— A. 'I'lx'y are used tiicre very III lie, I think. (jV Mess maekerel, which is (piite e\|>ensive, how huge a <|iiantity of that does the market, take ? — A. 'I'lii^ demand is . Now, at i5, supposing Hk^ iiuutkcrel are of the hest, «piality, how many h.irri'Is wiuild he sold in y(Hir estimation ? — A. 1 should Judge lii.lMlU harrels would he all that couhl he sold on Hie market at the price 01 'r'JO or upward. i). Ilavt^ you had any experience in selling mackerel to iiMM'chants to sell again, willi relereiuM' to the elVt'ct ol' a high or the low price im to tlic ainoiiiit tliat a aler would lake ? — \. I have had consideiahle ex- [Pt'iii'iKU' in selling mack«'rel. Q. You sell mackerel to go how far West. — A. My cnsfomers are mostly lov^on the New York Central lioa. You mentioned to me an instani^e of a customer who took a coa- loiiL^sidcrahle ipiantity of yon at last y«iar's prices. I wish yon would relate Isst'lHtlHMii to the Coinuiission ? — A. It was in Indiana. Last year bo bad A.Bsoiiu'. During the season be bad some 1,(M)0 or 1,2(K) harrelK. k>. At what price?— A. $7 and $8. n \H lill If! ■11!"' % k •n fi 2552 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Poor mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What are they selling for this year and what does he do ? — A. They have been selling for $12 until recently, and then they come down to $10. He has been to my place recently, but he said he didn't know whether he wonld purchase a?)y. Q. Will mackerel be taken for consumption at a ])rice above that of other staple articles of equivalent food value ? — A. 1 don't think tliey ■will in very large quantities. Q. Now, what causes have been in existence interfering with the sale of salt mackerel during the past few years? — A. I think tliere have boeu several causes. One is the facility of carrying our fresh lish into dis tant parts of the country. That has materially interfered with it. Then there is the lake herring; during the months of November and December until May they are very plenty. They are now used in very large quantities all throughout the West. Q. What are lake herring ? — A. A species of white flsh, I thiid<, only smaller. Q. What do they sell for per barrel ? — A. This party I referred to, speaking of his trade, said that last year he used 30,001) packages. A package is a half barrel. Q. How are these put up ? — A. Pickled. And he told me they were sold at $2 a package. Q. You say these have interfered with the constancy of the demand ?— A. I think, during the months we used to depend very largely on the consumption of our mackerel, the lake herring has been one great cause for the decline during these months in the market-value of mackerel. Q. As to the increased supply of fresh fish, and the extensive area over which it can be distributed, what effect has that 1 — A. Well, we employ a very large fleet ou the Grand Banks and other offshore Banks for halibut, and there have been of late years very large quantities taken, and the prices have been very low. They are going to all parts of the country, and I think that has had its etfect. People will not eat salt flsh when they can get fresh. Q. How far West have you sent any halibut, or do you know of it being sent fresh in ice ? — A. I have known instances where one of our neighbors receives them up in Montana. I don't know in what quanti- ties. He ships them right direct. Q. But as far as Mississippi does the fresh flsh in ice go? — A. All along that section, I think. Q. Taking such cities as Cinciniijiti, Chicago, Saint Louis, to say nothing of hundreds of smaller ones ? — A. They are supplied with fresh fish in many instances. The cars take them right through. Q. Now, 1 want to ask you something about the herring fishery. How extensive is the herring fishery in the waters of the United States ?— A. Well, I haven't any statistics of the herring catch. There are very large quantities taken there all along in the months of September aud October, about six weeks in September aud October, all along our] fihores. Q. How are they taken ? — A. All in nets. Q. What becomes of them ? — A. Generally the largest part are used I in our Western trade. Last year there was quite a large amount tbatj was shipped to Sweden. I don't know what quantities. I should sayf some seven or eight barks or brigs loaded from Gloucester . Q. Were they United States fish ?— A. They were packed in Glonces-j ter fresh. Q. Where w vicinitv of Glo Q. Off the e( clinsett.s. Q. Seven or A. I (lo'i't knov precisely the nu cV»00 harreKs a{) Q. They went Q. Have yam have you yourst riiiff. I have ne Q. How did y( Q. From whon Q. VVhat did y and used them 't West Indies. Q' J>id you car Q. Are they su, Q. When (iid ^ herring business?. 1861, and 18fi2, 1 i Q. VVhat season Q- -^ow, have \ seven winters to b Q. Beginning wl Q. Were you cor witli.um. Wewer, ]i- Hid you ever y. How did vou lafui the most in sp^ {• l^}^^ .vou go pr , y. Hid you ever heard of them. Q. Xow, do you '"ted States vessj pew of any. I b^v Wmv^-Home vesse \Q- vVhatisthepr of lierring varies vei h*H .7 selling from •resell them. Q. At Gloucester ? koats now, including ^•^V hat is the ba 'J>i'ai' usually. Q.. What would be '.['".^ or five cents erring from forei fs?--A. ItwouS clieap herring, j «« figeofit. " Q- Your business re hr of the business „ Mmmucb. I|,a^ !''• If you have then AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2553 caught arouud in the Q. Where were they from?— A. They were vicinity of Gloucester and Boston. Q. Otf the coast of ^Massachusetts ? — A. Yes, off the coast of Massa- cbusetts. Q. Seven ov eight barks you say. How many barrels to a bark? — A. I don't know what thej' took. I saw the vessels there. I can't say precisely tlie number. 1 shouhl think they might probably have taken '(,000 barrels apiece. Q. They went to Sweden ? — A. Gottenburg, I believe. Q. Have your vessels ever fished tor herritig in British waters or have you yourself? — A. I have been to the Magdalen Islands for her- ring. 1 have never fished there. I have been there for herring. Q. How did you get them ? — A. I bought them. Q. From whom ? — A. Provincial people. Q. What did you do with the herring ? — A. I carried them to Boston and used them for smoking purposes, as well as shipped them to the West Indies. Q. Did you carry them fresh and frozen ? — A. No ; salted. Q. Are they smoked after being salted ? — A. Yes. Q. When did you have anything to do with that Magdalen Island lierring business ? — A. (Referring to memorandum.) I was there in 1800, 18C1, and 1862, 1 think. Those are the only years. Q. What season ? — A. During the month of May. Q. Now, have you been to Newfoundland ? — A. I have been there seven winters to buy herring. Q. Beginning when ? — A. I was there in 1857 the first year. Q. Were you connected with Andrew Layton ? — A. I was in company with him. We were the first ones to go there from our place for herring. Q. Did you ever fish for any herring there? — A. I never did. Q. How did you pay for them? — A. Partly with supplies, provisions, and the most in specie. Q. Did you go prepared to fish for herring ? — A. Never. Q. Did you ever know a United States vessel that did ? — A. I never lieard of them. Q. Now, do yon know of any catching of herring prosecnted by Fuited States vessels in any British waters anywhere? — A. I never knew of any. I have known them to go to Labrador in tlie summor for |iierri!!p: — some vessels. Q. What is the price of herring ? Give me some idea. — A. The price if herring varies very much. Magdalen herring are a very cheap fish, [dsually selling from the vessel at about $1.50 for 228 pounds, the way e sell them. Q. At Gloucester ? — A. Yes. Our shore herring is selling from the loats now, including the barrel, at about $3.00. Q. What is the barrel worth? — A. Well, we consider it worth about dollar usually. Q, What would be the eflfect of a duty of a dollar a barrel on pickled wring, or five cents a box on smoked herring, upon the importation It herring from foreign countries — from the Dominion into the United pdBtates? — A. It would be prohibitory on the barreled herring, which is latBclieap herring. I can't speak of the box herring, for I have no knowl- lo'Keof it. Q. Your business relations have brought you into contact with a good lauyof the business men and fishermen of the provinces, I suppose? — Very much. I have traded to all parts of the provinces. Q. If you have the means of telling either from personal observation m I'Jiiliil W'il 2554 AWARD OF THE FISUERY COMMISSION. or from information derived from others, I would like to know what was the efi'ect upon the provincial fishing interests of the termination of tbe Reciprocity Treaty, that is the inipostion of the duty in 1860 — A. I have no means of actual knowledge except that 1 have conversed with people acquainted with the matter, the merchants of Canso ; the people I have been intimately acquainted with in this way have said it was very disastrous to their business. That is all. I had no personal kuuwl- edge. Q. During the continuance of the Reciprocity Treaty were there a good many fisliing vessels from the provinces engaged in the tishiiij; business ? — A. The last year of my fishing in these waters there was quite a large fleet from the West Shore, Chester, Lunenburg, and from that down. They built up a very fine fleet of vessels. Q. Did they continue iu the fishing business after Reciprocity ?— A, I have no personal knowledge only of some that told me this. Tliev told me their business had very much run down. That is all the knowi edge I have of it. Q. What efl'ect, in your judgment, would the reimposition of similar duties have upon the provincial fisheries ? — A. I think the ettect wouM be the decline of these fisheries if there was a duty put upon them. Q. Then if they ceased to send their fish to the United States, or sent them in less quantities, how would the difference in the quantity of tish be made up? — A. Well, I think it would naturally stimulate our owu production. I suppose that would be the tendency. Q. The operation of the duty, in your Judgment, would be to etlect a transfer of the business from the Dominion to the United States ?— A, I think it would stimulate the business to a greater amount. Q. What branch of fishing is the chief industry of Gloucester .'—A, The cod fishery. Q. What is the proportion, in your judgment, without statistics, of the cod fishery to tbe mackerel fishery ? — A. Well, I can answer for myself. Within the last few years we, as curers of fish, cured about from 18,000 to 20,000 quintals of codfish in the season. We packed troin 3,000 to 0,000 barrels of mackerel. Q. Well, give the proportion of your own business. How nnicli of that is codfish, and how much is mackerel ? You have given it in (jiiiii tals, give it in fractions. Is the cod fishing twice or three times as great ? — A. About $100,000 for the codfisherv, and, well, about one third as much for tbe mackerel fishery. Then we have other branches; our fresh-halibut fishing. Q. You are engaged in that fresh-halibut fishing? — A. Yes. Q. What do you do with the fresh halibut? — A. We sell them to the] merchants, and they distribute them over the country. Q. Where are they caught ? — A. Most of them catch them on the edjiej of the Banks in about 200 fathoms, where it falls off towards the Gi Strea.il. Q. How near shore to any place have you known of the halibut bviuj^ fished ? — A. loO miles may be the nearest point. Q. These are Banks, but haven't you known it to be done, or attempt€(I| near shore?— A. I have. Q. Where have you known them ? — A. On the Labrador coast tlie]| have caught them large near tbe shore. I have known them catch tlicu iu 30 miles or 25 miles, around Cape Sable. I fished there (jnite a miu ber of years — around Seal Island and Brown's Bank. Q. How near land there did you ever fish ? — A. I have fished in sigli of land. I could see it. Q. Did you could fish in t Q. You doD Q. You told Lawrence lor yeiir. I could wbere about J, Q. Before tl Q. A long 01 it went into ac Q. \VeIl,wh? A. He was lool any. Ife was s Q._ Well, you A. Yes, we got <«|. I wanted ( of any halibut fi vessel was doini around to see w and was taken. Q. Did these catching any. Q. Do you kui Oiilfof Sr. Lawi eosti— we call it called. J i,ave he liclleLsIe. That wiiight parts of tr to IS the only one Q- Do you thin f-'iited States mai f'el in the mark( "•oiild, perhap.s, h; Q- ^^'hat is it rt ■iml demand wouk joii m beyonared to catch cod as well as mackerel — mixed trips of that sort.? — A. 1 never knewyf any. They might catch a barrel. Q. Your Gloucester halibut catchers go as far as Greenland or Iceland sometimes ? — A. Not for fresh, but salted halibut. By Mr. Davies : Q. You spoke of the cost of your wharf as $25,000 ? — A. Yes. Q. Is that an average ? — A. I don't think that is an average. There are some lower and some higher. Q. Y^our busiuss i>remises, I suppose, would in value involve the out- lay of a large sum of money besides that ? — A. There is nothing con- nected with the business but the wharf. Q. You do all your business on the wharf ? — A. That includes tlie buildings ou the wharf. Our store is just ou the upland. We iiichule that as part of o;ir ■ harf. Q. How i"..'j> oUs are you interested in now ? — A. We own M. Q. As ma.i'i'f i <. '•« world has smiled very favorably' on you, That is so, is it >i'>f - I have been considered one of the most suc- cessful ones at t'je place. Q. What are '\e vessels worth apiece? — A. Today ? It would be a very hard question, . nsv. • Q. I don't mean to ^ay it v ;i \ ^-re to force them upon the market. But what do you value them at — jji 7,000 ? — A. That is one of tiie new cues. Many of them have been running some 12 years and have run down very materially in value — some down to $1,500. Q. Y'^ou built a new one in April ? — A. Yes. Q. How many ? — A. Just one this year. Q. What ones have been running 12 years ? — A. Well, we have, sev- eral of them that have been 12 years and some that have been running 18 years. Q. Y'"ou have of course your premises besides these, where yon re side f — A. I have a place where I live. Q. Y'^our partner too, I suppose ? — A. He has not any house. Q. I think you said that, in your opinion, the influx of Canadian mackerel did not very much affect the markets in the United States. Do you say that? — A. Well, not to any great extent. Q. I just want to know if you have examined the statistics with the view to ascertain what proportion of the whole quantity of mackerel consumed in the United States comes from Canada ? — A. I have not. Q. Well, it would depend pretty much upon how you found the statis- tics what your answer would be ? — A. Well, not with regard tooiu own catch ; the largeness or smallness of our own catch has made the price higher or lower more than anything else ; I have watched that. Q. I quite understand that a large or small catch there would nioreorj less affect prices ; but 8upi)08ing you examined the statistics and found that one-third of the mackerel consumed came from Canadian waters,] would yon then say that the importation of that quantity did not niateri ally affect the market ? I will put it at one-fourth. — A. It would affecl it up to a certain point ; beyond that, I think, the market would nut tiiki them. Q. Well, would not the effect be to reduce the price ; the people wouh ttike them if they went down low enough, wouldn't they 1 — A. Whci mackerel gets at a low figure there is a great consumption. Q. Would n( aftiect the pric market rates. (}. \Vliy?_^ luaiket will tak Q. i)o you m at the present 1 Q. VVen,Ime vear before last take tiiem. Q. Well, I wi of the mackerel effect would it h be .somewhat hi^ tain j)oint. Q. iVow, see. fourth of the qua price of the thre Tliey would rise Q. In consequi it would affect i woulil to that am Q. The reason price of mackerel of, going .sometirr bv the large qua u nill allow me to il -*2:i some years agi erel coming in, thi Q. What year \ .years ago I sold s, *t). and none canu Q. Are you sun ^. How do you Q. I fancy the y the annual report i luackerel in Jauuai the same; in Marc ^oU8; in Jijue jij '"'^lay and June- Q; ^Vell, in Ju„e the latter end of M June. , Q^ )VeII, the fres n n'"'^ '^^'"k m, Q. Well, I will ti oiJnne. Q. VVrywell. T ,:^' f think those rei "tlie market, not 9- Well, 1 am hf I am readi Ft'cles in the Xew Je I, the year J refe ; VVashin^^ton mai pen charging. t AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2557 Q. Would not the influx of a very liirge quantity of flsli materially affect tlu'. price ? — A. It would not lUiiteiially att'ect it at tbe present market rates. (}. VVIiy ? — A. Because the prices have got down now to where the maiket will take mackerel ; at higher rates it would haxe etfect. Q. 1^0 .you mean to say that almost any quantity could be consumed at the present low prices ? — A. Well, a large quantity. Q. Well, I meanany reasonaUlequantity thatcouldcomein? — A. Well, year before last we had a very large catch, and the markets seemed to "take tliem. Q. Well, I will |)ut my question in another way. Suppose one quarter of the mackerel now supplied were withdrawn from the market, what effect would it have as to prices ? — A. Well, I suppose the price would be somewhat higher, but the market would not take them beyond a cer- tain point. Q. Now, see. Take them at the prices now ruling. Supposing one- toiirth of the quantity now in the market was withdrawn, would not the price of the three fourths remaining naturally and inevitably rise ? — A. They would rise some. Q. In consequence of the withdrawal of the one quarter ? — A. I think it would affect it some; not more than 50 cents a barrel ; I think it would to that amount. Q. The reason I ask is that, examining your statistics, I find that the price of mackerel rises and falls more than any other commodity I know of, going sometimes from $ J2 down to $7. Is not that caused chiefly by the large quantity brought into the market ? — A. It is not. If you will allow me to illustrate the case, I will take mackerel that sold for $22 some years ago, and after months of consumption, without any mack- erel coining in, they went down to $6. Q. What year was that? — A. I will not be exact. I think about five years ago I sold some for $22 in the fall, and afterwards they went for ^6, and none came in. Q. Are you sure about that ? — A. I am sure. Q. How do you know none came in ? — A. 1 say no new catch. Q. 1 fancy the year you and I refer to is the same. I will read from tlie annual report of the (Jhief of Statistics for 1871. I find that No. 1 mackerel in January were selling for |22 a barrel to $22.50 ; in February tliesame ; in March the same; in April the same ; in May they dropped lto8l8; in June they were $18. That is as the spring catch comes iu I in May and June. — A. There are not many come in May. Q. Well, in June. I am told they go in April, and I assume that at [the latter end of May some would come in. — A. Not many salt fish until I June. Q Well, the fresh would be coming in to take the place of the salt. — |A. I don't think many. Q. Well, I will take June. Some would come in then. — A. The last lot June. Q. V'ery well. Then in July they dropped to $12 ; in August to $7. — JA, I thiidc those reports are based on the retail prices that they were |iu the market, not the Gloucester prices. Q. Well, 1 am speaking of the market prices which the mackerel iWiug. I am reading from a statement showing the prices of staple jarticles in the New York market at the beginning of last month. — A. IWell, the year J refer to I took our wholesale prices. I don't know what llie Washington markets or any of those New York markets might have |l)eeu charging. i|Mi ft "' If Hlf II 2558 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. I selected tbat year because I thought it was the one you referred to. — A. I only knew the year we lost so much money in Gloucester ou mackerel was when mackerel was high in the fall and low in the spiinjf, Q. I ask you this: Can you recall the year 1871 to your mind ? That was the yesir of the Washington Treaty. Are you or are you not aware that American vessels were admitted to the waters of Prince Edward Islaud ? — A. I have no knowledge about anything of that kind. Q. Were not j-bur vessels there? — A. I thiuk I might have heard them say that they werel I don't recollect. Q*. I tind a rather curious coincidence that the price of mackerel fell just about that time, and it struck me that the fact of their being al lowed to catch there might have something to do with it f — A. That year ? Q. I speak of 1871. — A. My vessels don't show a very large catcb that year. Q. Your vessels, you say, have never fished near Prince Edward Island, so that is quite consistent with njy theory ; but you will ac- knowledge, I think, and that is as much as I want, that generally speaking the supply regulates the price. — A. To a certain extent. Q. To a material extent. Will you go as far as that ? — A. Well, ]]\, to a certain point. If there was a very snuUl quantity I don't think the market would take them. The trade will not take them beyond a cer- tain limit. When the mackerel goes to 814 a barrel, or along there tu $15, that is our own mackerel, they will not take them. Q. They pay $25 for some. — A. That is men that have the money to pay, not poor people. Q. But there is a class who will pay a large price for the best fish— 10,0t)0 people you put it at. — A. I don't know exactly. Q. Supposing the mackerel caught in colonial waters were excliitled. would it, or would it not, have any effect upon the price you get toi your fish ? Supposing one fourth of the quantity consumed in the States was excluded, would it have any effect on the price of the other three-fourths * — A. I think some, not much. I think it would stimulate our home production. Q. In what way would it stimulate it? By raising the price, is it not? — A. Well, to a small extent. Q. What do you mean by to a small extent ? — A. Well, I think up to a certain point the market does not seem to take mackerel when they go beyond a certain figure. At $15 and along there the mackerel (ira<:!> hard, even with a small quantity. It was surprising to me this year. having mackerel to sell, that I had to look round to tind buyers. But when we have large quantities at low prices it seemed to me everybody j wanted to buy. Q. You are si)eaking of the Gloucester markets? — A. I have no I knowledge of any other market. 1 tind my cust«)mers when they get to j a certain point will not take them. Q. Well, then the effect of the British mackerel coming in is tbat tlie| consumer is able to buy it cheaper than he otherwise would? — A. Will. up to a certain point. The effect would be very small. There is notn| large enough (piautity. It is our home catch that affects it. Q. I am i)utting wliat I conceive to be the fact, as I said, that one- fourth of the mackerel consumed comes from the provinces. Would notl the exclusion of that naturally give you an enhanced price for tbeotherl three-fourths? — A. Well, I think it would to a certain extent, to a .sniiill| amount, I don't know how much. Q. You made the same statement with regard to herring. I supiw^ei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2559 ko!=e vonr answer would be the same as to that, as it is with rejjard to the mackerel ? — A. I saj' that a tUity up beyond a certain point would make them almost worthless. Q. It would be prohibitory, you said ? — A. I think it would be ou cheap herring. Q. Would not tlie j)rire go up ? — A. No. I don't think the market woiiltl take them at high tigures, not that quality. 1 don't think they woiilil go beyond 82. Q. Two dollars a barrel is the outside limit they can be sold for. >'o\v, it a large (juantity c«»ues in from a foreign market, must not the ]irice naturally fall well below that outsi. Do you stand by the full meaning of your answer, that you don't think they had reasonable grounds for believing the fish to be there ? — A. Well, a man might have leasonable grounds for believing they were in |tbe water anywhere. Q. Well, we have had evidence that the shores around Auticosti are ell known as a halibut-ground, and that quantities are taken over at asin' too. Do you tell me you have never heard of those grounds be- u;; halibut grounds ? — A. Not by our vessels catching them there. . Your evidence is that those two vessels, in your belief, went there iibout any previous knowledge that it was a halibut-ground, ou pure, tre speculation ? — A. Certainly. We had vessels this year that went to three hundred fathoms of water, when they had no evidence of fish iug there. They went there and tried. They had never any knowl- ge, or any one else. 'Jt ?! 2560 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Idiiroaay; but liere are vessels jjoing in and loiuleriiig themselves liable to seizure, being, iu tact, actually seized tbere ; and yon say they went to those idaces on i)ure speculation, without any previous knowi. edge? — A. Well, there was not any tish there, because it proved there were not any there. Q. You heard of one halibut ? — A. Well, I might have. Q. Who was the lucky fellow ? — A. I did not sjiy there was one. I might have heard of somebody catching a halibut. I can't say about that. < Q. Now, when you were prosecuting that branch of the fisheries, where were you accustomed to go ? — A. To the George's Bank mostly ; soi " on Jirown's Bank — that is ott(Jape Sable and on the Seal Island grouml. Q. There is a difference between Cape Sable and Sable Island I—A. Yes. Q. —A. I want to ask you whether you fished off Cape Sable or the island! Cape Sable. 1 wish you would go to the map, because there is a little disciep aucy between your statement and that of a gentleman here before. (Witness goes with counsel to map.) Q. (Pointing to Sable Island.) Was it near Sable Island ? — A. No; I never fished there. I fished at Seal Island and Tusket Light. Q. Was it toward that direction ? — A. I fished all the way around. Q. Do you know a harbor there called Lobster Harbor ? — A. I don't, I never was iu there much. Q. Perhaps you never tried in close around Cape Sable Island at all ? — A. Never within eight or teu miles. Probably I have tried in eight or ten miles. Q. You never tried in within three miles there for halibut ?— A. No. Q. Of course, then, you don't know about it. We have some evi dence that there have been fish caught in tbere, and as you have never tried you won't, of course, contradict it? — A. No; I will not. Q. You don't know anything about it. Now, you submitted a state ment, and I understand it to be not the result of an actual voyage, but just a statement made up out of your own bead as to what yon think would be the probable result of a voyage? — A. I have had a gooil many years' experience, and I take that as a supposed voyage, it is \ not an actual voyage. Q. It is a mere fancy statement. I don't mean in any improper sense, It is not made as the result of any actual voyage. And you show a j loss on the catch of 400 barrels of some $325 to the charterer. Now, 1 1 remember when you were giving evidence and Mr. Foster asked you what number of barrels should be taken to make a fair and paying voyage, you happened to say the very same number which yousboffj by this account to have resulted in a loss. — A. I said 400 or 500 barrels, Q. You said 400 barrels, if I remember? — A. I didn't say 400 barrels, did I? Q. I understood you so ? — A. I think I said 400 or 500. , Q. I think you began by saying 400. Then you said generally from 400 to 500? — A. Well, between these two figures would be the number | of barrels that would make a paying voyage. Q. Now, if $325 were lost upon 400 barrels caught, how do jc reconcile the two statements ? — A. It is made up by the charter of tliej vessel. My answer was on the vessel that was not chartered, but rnfll by the owners; and the result tbere shows that the owner did luakel some $220. Q. You mean to say the owner would make, whereas the charterer! AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2561 would lose ? — A. As a practical man of business I consider all tlieso ('liiir}.'('s us charges that wouhl hi* fair and just in making ui> tlie account. I iiiakt' out that he would be a loser. . Q. That is if ho chartered f — A. The party who owned the vessel would miikc money out of the charter. Q. lie would make the charter, whatever it was; he would make the viiliii' of the cliarter, less tiie wear and tear of the vessel, less interest ami taxes. But do I understand you to say tliat the owner of a vessel Miidiiif; her to the bay would make a fair profit on 400 or 500 barrels, wliereas the charterer would lose ? Then there must be some particular braiicii in which the owner makes a profit, which the charterer has no advantage of? — A. In that case I have given, if the owner ran the ves- sel iiiiiiself on that voyage, and got 400 barrels, he would not be much nf a loser. If he got an advance on that, and was the charterer himself, he would have sometliing left out of the voyage. Q. Must not he have the same expenses as a charterer would have ? — A. Wtdl, if he had an increased number of barrels he wouhl make. Q. r>ut with the same number of barrels and these expenses he would not make anything? — A. He wouhl get the interest on his money; ho would earn that. Tlie interest and taxes have gone into that account. Q. Well, you |»rove conclusively by this account that a man who catclies 400 barrels loses $325. — A. If he is a charterer. Q, And if he is the owner he makes ; now, where does the difFerence lie!— A. If he is the owner he does not make. Q. I will see, now, if I can solve that difficulty, although I am only a tyro in tlie business. You give certain charges here that are made against the voyjige ; 40 barrels of pogie bait, $240, and 10 barrels of clams, $80. Tliat would have to be pai«l by the men wiio fitted her out. Expenses for barrels and packing 400, at $1.75, $700. Now, is there not a very fair profit made out of that branch of the business ? — A. That is not in connection with the vessel ; that is with the business. Q. There is a handsome profit ? — A. There is a profit. Q. Could that business exist if the vessel didn't go on the voyage to bring the business I — A. AVell, it is part of the business. Q. Is it not a necessary incident which could not occur without the I vessel going ? — A. Of course you have to have the vessel to get the I business. Q. Then I understand you to agree that there is a handsome profit [made upon that? And you have provisions, fuel, &c., for 10 men, four months, at 40 cents per day each, $700. It struck me you put that very bigli. What provisions do you supply them ? — A. I cannot give you all I the items. Q. How many barrels of flour, for instance ? — A. Well, that is not my |(le|mrtinent, but we put aboard about 14 barrels of flour, 12 or 14. Q. You were so many years in the gulf that you must have known jliow many barrels you were accustomed to take. You can give the ICommission very near the exact quantity ? — A. I can give you the jquantity of large articles like flour and beef, but I could not give' you |tbe little articles. Q. It struck me as being very high. — A. I would say in regard to [that, that that is based on actual figures taken on our vessels year after year. We have made up accounts to see what it costs per man. We judge 40 cents is about what it costs a day for board. Q. That forty cents a day is made up and based upon the prices which ^ou charge the vessel for these goods ? — A. Yes. Q. Is there not a handsome profit made out of these ? — A. We cou- 101 F 2562 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Rider if we liiive an outside vessel where the captain owns her himself that we make on this litting about $7o. Q. ])o you know what lu'rcentage that is? It is 10 per cent.— A. ■\V'«'II, we make up his aucount and settle with the crew. Q, 1 am not complaining tiiat it is exorbitant. I think it is very rcii- somible and fair paying business. Now there are ILM) barrels ot lAwr. pool salt, $120. Do you mean to say you pay $1 a barrel for Livei'iool salt in bond. (1 understood you to say that was taken out of l)()iiii,| We can buy Liverpool salt in Prince Kdward Island cheaper than tliat.— A. Well, your vessels fetch it out as ballast. Q. But (loes Liver|)Ool salt in bond cost $1 a barrel? — A. Well, wc take our salt. It is in the outside part of the town, in the storelioiisc, We have to send men to head it, and cooper it, and wo have to pay tor teaming it. Q. Vou are explaining why you charge a profit upon it? — A. It is nn profit. 1 im a dealer in salt, and import 50,000 hogsheads of salt. I think our Liverpool salt sells at $1.75 a hogshead. Q. To whom? A. Any dealers that wish to purchase. Q. llow many barrels to a hogshead ? — A. We usually get down iioro two barrels. Q. Is that all ? — A. That is what we get. When wo sell it, wc call it three and a half bushels to a barrel. Q. You charge the vessel about 15 cents more than the price ?— A, "We charge the vessel no profit on the salt. Tito vessel lias to pay the extra charges there will be for cooperage, teaming it, and taking it tu the vessel where she lies, and taking it in. Q. Then you charge in addition to these things for the charter of the vessel S 1,000, an. What I , the high tiie large No. small ones at ij hiffhest— in thi vessel, I have i erel as I know There is a ditfe, will have a gra( not guarantee Kilward ijsland. "lily ImmhucIi hi Q' iii\t this is Q- It riys Pj there at all a. there. Q- No; they a 'e.s inspected 'e State ?— a J>on'tyouk A. 1 suppose the }i' lou are brc "ith this matter, mean to say you', 'Je l^'iited States A. I i.cv«.r had ui V- JJo I under,* ''"id he not ii y. Are you not y- Uave you an I'oseitdoes: I do' regard to it. Tb, aiiiuitted free of d 'Iff about that. Q- Now, we hnxr :^Mlnit' the ma^ ;ch came from y '»io; but that I AWARD OP THE FISIIEP'. COMMISSION. 2563 Q. Tliu.i cannot bo extra innckorol ? — A. Kxtra luackerul, mess luack- eivl, il ii iiiiiii had any, wuiilil he lai'i^er. (^. Well, I lUulerNtiUiil that is a theurctical statement, and I want to tost it in one or two wa.ys. Now, if 1 take the prices as quote«l in the (XliiKtt I have read, 1 lind they would make a dill'erenee of $l,;{2r» in tiiNoi' ot the charterer; or, deductinj; the loss which yon state t)f $.'}L'."), there would be left a clear prollt of ij 1,000, taking; the IJoston priites as fliioteil. — A. Ill my account I take the Gloucester rates, the wholesale Gioiicester rates — actual sales which occurred at the time I lv it out to protect myself from the risk of my not Knowing: where the three-mile line was. Q. Why could you not know ? — A. Well, if a cutter overhauled me tiic coininander would decide instead of me. lie would not allow me to liiive any voice about it. Q, Was there any question as to how the lines weie to be run ? — A. It wiis a nuitter I did not understand. It was a matter of dispute. Some said the line ran from headland to hr'adland, and others said it did not. I (lid not know how the cutters might decide on that. (^. You had heard that different claims were made? — A. I had heard tliiit ditl'orent claims were made, and that there were disputes. Q. Except because of the disputes that might arise as to your being tlnve or live miles or more out, or as to the manner in which the line WHS to be run ; as to tht mere value of the fish to be caught, would you have given anything for the license? — A. But very little, if anything. Q. How much would you have given ? — A. A very suuill sum. (^>. Not as much as was charged? — A. No. Q. Which would be most profitable to you as a fisherman or dealer in fish, to have the duty of $2 a barrel on again aiul be excluded from the tliR'oinile limit, or to be admitted to within the three miles and have llie (liiry ott? — A. If I was going tishing agaiu I would prefer having a duty on and be excluded from the three miles. Q Suppose this three-mile line could have been m.arkcd to run, not from headland to headland, but to follow the indentations of the coast, liy some mark as intelligible as a fence on shore is between one man's liirm and another, so that no question would be involved, would you tbtn give anything for the right to flsh inside of that fence i — A. No. Q. Do you know anything about tho herring fishery off tho coast of tlie Ciiited States ? — A. I have often heard it spoken of, and I have seeu l;oiriiig brought into Gloucester many times. Q. Does Gloucester export herring? — A. It does. Q. To what places?— A. Gottenburg is one place, I have seen ves- sels employed catching herring off the coast of Massachusetts. Q. When did you last see them ? — A. The last time 1 saw them was ou Saturday last. Q. You left Boston on Saturday in the steamer ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you see the herring- vessels tishing? — A. Very near Boston light-house, in among some little islands called Brewsters. Q. Perhaps the Graves? — A. Yes. Q. Did you take the trouble to count the vessels? — A. I did. Q. flow many were there ? — A. I counted 51; there may have been ' I two or three more perhaps; 51 were within range. Q, You are sure there were 51 ? — A. I am. Q. Has it been the custom for some years past for Gloucester and lotbor places to send small vessels to fish for herring off Boston and I in tlie bay there ? — A. It has been for several years. Q. Do you know whether it is a profitable business ? — A. I have fre- IqiU'iitly seen them after they have been gone two or three days, come jack with their boats or vessels full. Q. Do they always return to Gloucester, or do they sometimes ran liuto Boston ? — A. They often go into Boston; they go into both places. Q. They land the herring fresh ? — A. Yes ; and sell them fresh somo- |tinie». ■■ :lNl?--r if . - t*'i 2576 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. By Mr. Thomson : Q. You cuininuiured flahiiifj in 1850? — A. Y«»s, na mastor of a vcmsiI, Q. Hud you ever been in the nuK before that '! — A. Yes. Q. How many years previous ? — A. One yeiir. Q. What year? — A. Kifjiiteen liiindred anil Hftyeijjht. Q. IIow did you tio there, as one of the crew ? — A. Yes. Q. Had you any interest in the voyajfe excjcptasono of the crew ?- A. No interest, other than in what 1 caufjht. Q. Where did you tish then ? — A. At iMagdalen Ishinds and Hank Orphan. Q. Did you fish any where else 7 — A. Those woio about all the pi, kum whero we caught the maclierel ; wo niay have tried some otiier i)liices possibly. Q. How many did you get that time f — A. I tliink lioS barrels. Q. Ha«l you a license tliat year ? — A. I think not. Q. Then you bad a right to all the inshore fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you try first, at the JMagdaleu Islands or IJiUik Or- l)han? — A. At Bank Orphan. Q. You went through the Gut of Canso, I 8U|)poRe ? — A. Yes. (j. Did you run straight to Orphan Bank ? — A. From where ? Q. Through from the Gulf of Canso ? — A. No. Q. Where did you go to fish first ? — A. It would be a diflicult thing to run straight with a vessel. Q. Did you go direct from Canso ? — A. We went directly thuri', as fast as we could from the Strait of Canso to Bank Orphan. Q. You went direct without fishing anywhere till you got to Orpliaii Bank?— A. Yes. Q. Where does it lie? — A. To the southward of Bouaventuro Island, Q. You i)a8sed Prince Edward IshuuU — A. Yes. Q. And went away to the northward and westward ? — A. To the north ward. Q. Somewhat to the westward ? — A. No. Q. Is it direct to the north f — A. I cannot say to a point; it is so, as near as 1 can recollect. Q. I suppose you never heard of good fishing at Prince Edward Island ? — A. I may have heard of it. Q. And yet your captain never staid to try any place at the island ?- A. We went to Bank Orphan. Q. You passed by East Cape and North Cape ? — A. I don't know that we saw North Cape. Q. You saw East Cape? — A. I am not certain about it. I don't recol , lect that we saw it. Q. Did you pass within sight of the island at all ? — A. Yes ; if it had been daylight we would have been in sight of it. Q. Were you near enough to see the island? — A. I don't recol li "i' I saw it. Q. You went direct to Orphan Bank ? — A. Yes. ii. How many mackerel did you catch on Orphan Bank?— l can- not tell yon positively, but I think one-half of the trip we took iim le. Q. You got 240 barrels altogether? — A. Y'es, about that, as nigii as I can recollect ; I would not be positive of the exact amount. Q. Why did you fix the amount at 240 barrels if you have no uiemo randum ? — A. It is as nigh as I can recollect. Q. That is about 20 years ago. Have you no memorandum of it!-j A. I think the vessel carried about 240 barrels, and she was full. Q. Tlien you had a full cargo before you came home ? — A. Yes. (f. At wlia (}. Ami nil Q. ImiiK'dii \(iii ;:(» (lin'(-t Q- Diil you of flic .sliorc o\ and piiKly ins Q- \Va,s the not answer tin ^>. ^\■|lilt wa; (islinl .'—A. 1»( (). How far o ImII ;i mile, j)(.j <.'• CiUIIIot V( hniivls \oii ||}1,| <.». U',.|i, rj„.„ try tlic iii,si(|«. „ •"' i" iiny Cliii Islands. ^i'- Von did ,|( ^I'l'— V. 1 think . Neither did "'■'i'<>"«' theCan Q. Did you tr\ li'ips w«. (lid . I I '.►• «inely yon '■'I'r lor ;iic to re tiicnty years nan 'MViIlyo„,s:,v ■^- ^\«M'aii<.ht bii 'il- Did you fish I .No. . Did you fish [''"■•^'"^'diilcn Isia 'i'- \Vliy did vor |iiiiis|)oaliiiioH/' i,s r-iii^lit a .small ou |vfi'\ lew. ^ ';*• ^'(J^v is that i "" ''i'.v wo ('ano-iif '"";[ "' -Magdalen h 'f ion say vou , ''"'""""■■;lit have in til I CO "wmiLsoCthos '.' Did y(. II tish w i,voiica. iitauvo rortwoiiiackorol '• i ''«k .vou, did • l^ii a voiy few m .'.Are you in don I f « ot Cape Breto If thventy years as„, ^^l-etlier he did m 162 F I AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2577 (). At what time did yon go into the bay .' — A. I tliinlv in July. {). And caiiH* ont wlicn i — A. At tiMi latter part of OctoluT, 1 think. (^>. Iinni«'diati'Iy aftrr yon got tlironyh lishinjj on Hank Orplian, did voii ^'o din'ct to tlie Ma^^'dahMi Island.s .' — A. Y<>s, (}. Diii yon take the Hsh inshoio or otl' shore th«'i«', witliin tlireo miles (il'ttic shore or oil"? — A. I think both; partly oil, more than three miles, iiiid piirtly inside. Q. Was the larger proportion taken inshcne or ot!' shore ? — A. T can- not answer that. (), What was the farthest distance from the Ma},'dalen Islands you tislieil .'—A. I'erhaps twelve or fourteen njiles sonn- of the time. (}. How far ott' was the lu'arest '! — A. We may have lished some within halt a mile, perhaps; I cannot reeolle(!t exactly, {}. Cannot you recollect that, when you can recollect the number of binrt'lsyon had? — A. No. {}, Well, then, you got your fnll fare without having- any occasion to tn the inside waters at I'rince ICdward Island or the coast of (laspe or in Bay (Jhaleurs? — A. We lished our fnll fare at the Magdalcu Islands. (^», Yon did not try within three miles along l*rin(!e ICdward Island at iili:— A. I think not. {). Neither «lid you try within three miles of the New llrnnswick shore 01 iiioM}'' the Canada shore off (ias|n'' .' — A. No. (,). Did you try within three miles of Cai)e Breton sliore ? — A. IVr- liiips we did; i think we did. {}. Surely you can recollect ,' — A. It is some time ago, aiul it is dilli- iiilt l(ir nie to remember every place at which wo might have hove to twenty years ago. (). Will yon say you did or did not fish on the slnu'e of Cape I>reton ? — A. We caught but very few inackend anywhere within three miles. (I Did yon flsh within three miles of the shore at Cape Breton .' — A, >0 Q. Did you fish anywhere within three miles of the shore, except at (■Magdalen Islaiuls .' — A. No. (^>. Why did you say you might have caught a very few inshore. I mil speaking of 1S.">S altogether. What did you mean by saying you niii^lit a small quantity inshore 1' — A. I said we might have caught a \m- lew. {). llow is that ])oasible if you did in)t lish within three miles? — A. I >!ill sii\ we caught nearly or (jnite all of our mackerel on Orphan IJank iiiiil at Magdalen Islands. il Yon say you might have caught a small quantity inshore ? — A. I m\ wo iMi''ht have caught a few near the shore of Cai)e IJreton. ;. in tliice miles? — A. We might have caught a few witliin ICO iiiilt s of the shore of Cape Breton. t,). Did yon tish witliin three miles of the shore at Cape Breton, wheth- i you ca it any ()r not? — A. I am not able to say l»ut what I canght [iii'ortwo nmckerel within three miles of Cape Breton shore. t>. I ask you, did yon in tact fish within three miles of Cape lireton in'?— A. I say we might have hove to near Cape Bretou Island and i:lit a very few ma' ' '"rel. 1^'. Are yon in doubt m your mind as to whether you fivshed within three es of Cape Bretou shore ? — A. It is not possible for a man to recol- ct twenty years ago, whether he might have caught a very few mackerel It whether he did not catch any 162 F ^1 K!^f'. ,.*.* '^^'' "' ■"?•/ ..*{• 5Viv?V' [% . ■' :3u< '1? 'M 2578 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Have you in your own mind any doubt as to whether you lisbej within three miles of Cape Breton shore? — A. I don't recollect. Q. Have you any doubt ? 1 don't ask you whether you recollect.— i I have forgotten whether we caught one mackerel within three miles ot Gape Breton shore that year or not. Q. You are serious, that you don't know whether you did or did not! — A. Yes. I don't know whether we might have caught a few or might not, within three miles of Cape Breton shore. .No. 57. Thursday, October 11, 18". The Conference met. Cross-examination of Oilman S. Williams, of Gloucester, Mass., called on behalf of the GoA'ernment of the tFoited States, resumed. By Mr. Thomso:j : Question. When we adjourned yesterday we were speaking of rk mackerel caught inside of three miles of th? shore at Cape Breton-! suppose that was off Margaree, was it ? — Answer. An I under.stood it, it referred to Margaree or thereabouts. Q. That was in 18o8. In 1859 you went into the bay and got L'lO bar rels — where did you tish then? — A. At Bank Orphan and Bank Biai' ley and Pigeon Hill grounds, the first trip. Q. Did you make two trips in 1859?— A. Y"ps. Q. Did you get L*4() baiTcls each trip? — A. No. Q. The aggregate of the two trips was 240 barrels? — A. In IS,")!)—}!': Q. Was it your own vessel ? — A. I was master of the vessel ami pii owner. Q. Where did you get tlifit memorandum ? — A. Out of the books oi the firm which owned the vessels. Q. You don't recollect yourself? — A. Not so well; not so acciiiatelj as to give the figures. Q. If you had not gone to the books, could you have recollected atal as far back as 1859, 18 years ago ? — A. Yes, but not so accurately. Q. You could not recollect the number of barrels taken? — A. Not nearly correct. Q. ('ould you have recollected where you fished ? — A. Yes. Q. You went through the Gut of Canso ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you then go straight to Orphan Bank? — A. We went tot Magdalen Islands fii.st. Q. Without fishing anywhere ? — A. Without fishing anywherfi Q. Did you take a large proportion at ]\lag That is about southward ! — A. No. Q. now -.any Q- Are those j Q- Tliose qua,! flit; iirat trip youi tiill fare f— a. £ i /i>- J^idyounoi A. Pmbably I ai ^ '»'■ May I ask ^ Bradley or Pigeoi ''"' fry »s Jong as swison. ^i- J am 8i)eakj ''tii.ved as long j,g f"g«> Jioiiieaud J IJi'i' before we retil ';'• yon got shol ^i- And without! y'ii proceeded hor V' ) ou did „ot "■•"■«it not sill • I "iid not been •n lillH'. ''*-/^ake the nexi U'S. 5 -n^yy- AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2579 Q. Did you take many at Pigeon Hill grounds ? — A. I think about ;5 barrels, to the best of my recollection. Q. ])id that fill the schooner? — A.. Very nearly. We then worked a little to the eastward on to Bank Bradley again, and there made up our voyage. Q. You had then got a full fare ?— A. Yes. Q. When fishing at what you call Pigeon Hill grounds, how near were voii to the shore? — A. We were just in sight of Pigeon Hill on a clear (lay ; if it was a thick day we could not see it. Q. How far from the shore ? — A. I should suppose twelve miles, to tbe best of my knowledge. Q. Then upon that voyage you never were within three miles of the shore at all ? — A. Not whilst fishing. Q. You then went direct back to the States? — A. Yes ; to Gloucester. Q. You did not fish any at that time on the shores of Cape Breton or M«rgaree ? — A. Not any that voyage. Q. How many barrels did your schooner carry with a full cargo ? — A. About 210 barrels is what we could carry conveniently. Q. The next trip was made at what time I — A. We got back to Mag- dalen Islands at the last of September. Q. How -any did you get on that trip ? — A. 85 barrels. Q. Are those all you got ? — A. Yes. (}. Those quantities make .'}'25 barrels for the season — not 240 ? On tlie fust trip your schooner, which could carry about 240 barrels, got a full tare? — A. 1 meant to toll you that iu both trips we got 240 barrels. Q. Did you not tell me that you got a full cargo on your first trip ? — A. Probably 1 did ; if I did, I made a mistake. Q. Tlien, on your first trip you did not get a full fare ? — A. No. Q. May 1 ask you why, not having got a full fare on either Bank Bradley or Pigeon Hill ground, you did not try Bank Orphan ? — A. We (lid try as long as we were able to try, on account of the lateness of the season. Q. 1 am speaking of the first trip ? — A. I mean the first trip. We I staved as long as we had any provisions, it being late in the season. (l What do you call late in the season ? — A. We bad only got time Itogo home and get back again. As I have said, xc was late iu Septem- jk'i' before we returned tor the second trip. <^ You got siiort of provisions '! — A. Yes. Q. And without waiting to get a full cargo, being short of provisions, |you i)ro(;eedod home ? — A. Yes. (}, You did not think proper to try round the shores of Prince Ed- l^rard Island ? — A. We had not time for one reason. (^ You had not time to try oft' Cape Breton ? — A. No, not on the fust |tri|). Q. How many barrels did you tako on the first trip ? — A. About I'M) Ibaiiels, to the best of n)y recollection. i}. That was not by 110 barrels suflicient to make a full cargo ? — A. Ii> II ■■1. jmn^'^:. S)^ m s'^"* ;i;r '^'•yiz 1 •--/>'-, ••fe*'*' Q. Still yon did not try within three miles anywhere, and that was at I time when you were not prohibited from coming within three miles of fiitie ? — A. No; we could go anywhere. 'v>. \Yasit not singular that you did not try within the three miles ? — |A. [ luid not been accustomed to fish within three miles of tiie land at tilt lime. *i> Take the next year, 18G0. Did you go into the bay that year ? — Yes. II 2580 AWARD OF THE HSIIERY COMMISSION. Q. Where did yon fish then ? — A. I fl.shed that year, the first trip, on Bank Orphan and Bank Bradley, and nearly the same ground as tlin year previous. Q. lilxcept that the previous year you did not fish on Bank Orphan at all ? You went straight from Canso to JNIagdalen Islands, aiul failing to find anytliing there, went to Bank Bradley, and from there to ri},'fuii Hill giouud, and came back to Uank Bradley, and went home ?— .\, Those Banks are so nearly connected that we some days hardly know which we are on. Q. Bank Orphan is a considerable distance to the north of Bauk Bradley? — A. They are nearly connected in soundings and lishiiig. Q. Don't you kuow perfectly well when you are fishing ou Bank iirad- ley and Bank Orphan ". — A. Yes, if the weather is clear, so that we tan see anything. We generally go here and there on various places betwwu those Banks, wherever we think we can get fish. Q. You don't know whether iu 1859 you fished on Bank Orphan or uot? — A. I think we did. i}. In ISGOyou fished on Banks Orphan and Jiradley ? — A. And Pigeon Hill ground. Q. ])id you go to the Magdaleu Isla.ids? — A. 'Sot the first trip. Q. How nuiny barrels did you get on the second trii) f — A. Tiiat swa in 1860. We got 225 barrels' the first trip. Q. What would have been a full fare? — A. About 250 barrels. Q. And you took 240? — A. Two hundred and twenty fivo. Q. Dui'ing that time you did not fish anywhere along the coast nf Prince Edward Jsland ? — A. No. 1^ Q. Did you go into the Bay Chaleurs? — A. Xo. ■ Q. Or to Gaspe ?— A. Xo. " Q. You did not go within three miles of the shore anywhere !— A. Xot at Prince Edward Islantl or Xew Brunswick. > Q. Did you at JMargaree ? — A. I think we diiandinn which shows you whoivyoi ^veut? — A. Xo; only the number of barrels. Q. You went to Magdalen Islands and did not get a full fare: Im many did you get? — A. I cannot tell you; about 100 barrels, 1 tbiuli 1 am not certain. (^>. Was it the same vessel as yon w^c' in the first season ? — A. Vol Q. Where did you next go ?— A. To Port Hood. Q, Tiiere you tisiied inshore ? — A. Yes. (J. Did you get many there ? — A. A few; we lished across on F's man's Bank, to the westward of Port Hood, between Cape George a Georgetown. Q- yVhy did Riinks /{mdl,.y Q. \\'as that Vcs. Q- '> ) yon tl .Slimmer season Q. What timi ro be very wind *i>- I>o you cj ;iilf.'-A. It is I >o hard in Octal 'I ^Vliyis if; , make a lee unde 'i». Then there Islands .'—A. 1 <; Q. Coinparativ "■:"•' of the islaii Q- Why did y, It lilows so hard Q- \\'()nld not l ft "Odid blow so iinni if is iinpossi j)- Vet you call '!»' ai)(l j)roi)ertv. Q- i)o I uiidersi ■'"y otlier |)laco ii, ''|"i'm in Septemb( Q. And in Octob iMiices. '.'. VVonId you n plHard Island in t %>"'l on what ,>a, '?• Talce tlie nort Q. Take East Po 'f ''".v place to mal, '.'• '^ouris Ilarboi )or. ')■ Is there no saf f t'le island ?— \ ;H;'''o and before J/w«- about Uas P't' liaruor." ,,j;,;^:';''>"'SPuKstico, l^^'loMcesterves ;'■ ^'ave you been '^wpended nionov ;;.v or seven yeaps ' • Jo'i don't know WH(»00or870 0( til ''"'' '""'t. K 0" this trip in r ^ •;'!• to Port lloo. .Mm have been 1 • How many dhl J ,]."'»• whole car, Would you prefer, as a matter of safety, to bo fishing off Prince lEdward Island in October than off Magdalen Islands ? — A. That would flepeiul on what part of Prince Edward Island I was at. Q, Take the north part ? — A. I should prefer Magdalen Islands. Q. Take East Point ? — A. East Point is a long way from any harbor lorauy place to make a lee. Q, Souris Harbor is close by ? — A. Souris Harbor is not a safe har- por. ^ }. Is there no safe harbor, as far as you are aware, on the north side the island ? — A. Malpeque is a safe harbor if you can go iu in the iiiytiine and before the wind has been long blowing on shore. (,>. How about Uascumpe^-4:'m ■','l,.;'i "rt fmjt^ ; i . ''^»^1; ♦ I .i>».f>. B*a*» Q. That year, then, you got over 450 barrels the two trips ? — A. You are speaking of the last trip, are you ? Q. If I understood you, the first trip you got 225 barrels? — A. That is what I referred to now, when I spoke of 225 b irrels; the last trip we got 1(50 barrels. Q. Ou the last trip, did you fish anywhere on the shore of Prince Ed ward Island ? — A. Yes ; I hove to several times. Q. Within three miles of tlie shore? — A. Yes. Q. Where? — A. Between Souris and East Point. ii. Y'ou did uot get anything? — A. I should think one barrrel or so, to the best of my recollection. Q. Nothing more than that? — A. Certainly not over five. Q. What was that owing to — to your not staying there? — A. Owing to there not being anj- mackerel there. Q. Then you went to Port Hood ? — A. We had been to Port Hood before fishing there. We go from bay to bay. Q. You did uot fish on the uorth side of Prince Edward Island ?— A. Not that fall. Q. In J801, were you in the baj^ ? — A. Yes. Q. How many trips did you make that j'Ciir ? — A. Two. Q. Where did you go ? — A. To nearly the same ground as the piovi ous year. Q. And neither in ISGl nor 1802 did you go inshore at all? — A. You are coming to 1802 now ? Q. Yes. — A. We went first to Banks Orphan and Bradley and on Pigeon Hill ground, and got a fare of mackerel there. Q. You did uot fish inshore at all ? — A. No. Q. Y'ou did not even try ? — A. No. Q. Y^ou did not go to Magdalen Islands ? — A. Not that trip. Q. In the fall ? — A. We went to the Magdaleu Islands in tlie fall. Q. Were you successful there ? — A. We got nearly our whole tiiii there. C^. How many barrels did you take ? — A. 200. Q. How many did you take on the first trip ? — A. 2.'30. Q. All those were paying trips? — A. I never made much money out of mackerel. Q. I meau paying to the owners of the vessels? — A. I should tliiiik uot. Q. Y'ou think that each season would be a loss ? — A. I owned part of the vessel myself and lost money. Q. In each of those seasons, did yon ? — A. In 1801 and 18p2. Q. Who furnished the supplies; were you one of the merchants toj furnish supplies? — A. No. Q. Did your co-owners furnish Me supplies? — A. Yes. Q. Did they lose money ? — A. i .im not able to say. Q. Y'ou did not ask thein whether they made money ? — A. I tiilicoilii over with them during the fall, when there came to be a settleineul. lost money myself. Q. In 1800, 1801, and 1SG2, the prices of mackerel were very low' A. I think they were. Q. AVhat did you get a barrel for your fish ? — A. I cannot tell yoi now. Q. Are you not able to recollect what you got for your fish as well the number of barrels taken ? — A. I cannot tell you, there are so luai years, and very different prices. Q. Have you no idea how you happened to lose money ? I siippasj 'i g' .'• Hiive you ho:i f"'l'iave taken n ;/■ ^';>ve yon he "'^'>;o( the^hore, f"'' of vessels '^'' '^'oii hare not <<'Oii.stof i>n„^,^3 mile line. Q. Then, practica ;X states to ma ^l^'': '.s really sent 2 «;.th the right t ■7;:-A. i don't tl , • J<>» think it w .^'•^^re you awara ''«"«"'^ter and Bost AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2583 yon would bave lost money if you had had full fares, instead of fall irties witliiu 50 barrels ? — A. There is other fishing connected with it. Some jears there is a loss with other fl.shing connected with it — cod- tisliing. {}. xV loss with cod-fishini? as well? — A. Some years, at some times. Q. As a practical fisherman, do you state th.at the inshore fishing at riince Edward Island, Cape Breton, along the shore of New Brunswick ami Quebec, are of no use to United States people ? — A. Do you speak ot' Prince Edward Island in particular? Q. I will take all the inshore waters of Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, and Gaspe, and along the south sliore of Lab- riulor. Do you say that those inshore fisheries are practically no use to United States fishermen ? — A. I would not say they are no use to Amer- ican fishermen. Q. Do they make money by having access to them, or do they lose money — for if they lose money by them the fisheries are practically or no use? — A. From my own experience, they have never been much l)enelit. to me. (}. Have they been any benefit to you? — A. I, have caught a few mackerel there occasionally. I might have caught as many somewhere else, perliai>s, if I had been at another fishing-ground. Q. I want your judgment as to whether those inshore fisheries are inattically of any use whatever ? — A. I should say they are very little beiii'lit to me, if I was going fishing again. Q. That is not the (piestiou. You are a practical man, and you seem II lair man, and I want your opinion as to whether you think that the ii\ ilege of fishing inshore, within 3 miles, is of any use to United States jtisiiornieii. — A. I think they were not any great use. That is as fair as jlt'aii answer your question. (). You admit they are of some use and benefit? — A. Yes. 1 have I caught some fish there — a few. il All the fish you admit having caught within the 3 miles amount jtunotliing. Half the time you did not try to fish inshore? — A. As a jgviieral thing I did not try to fish there. Some years 1 have tried to llisli there. (,). Toll me what practical use it is to the United States. Is it of any liisi; at all ? — A. Some other vessels may have fished theie more than I I I'C (^>, Have you heard of any vessels being more fortunate than you in MmjT within 3 miles of the shore ? — A. I think 1 have heard of vessels h\M\ have taken more fish inshore than I have. ^}. Have you heard of American vessels taking largo fares within 3 lili'sof the shore, not includirtg Magdalen Islands? — A. Itliink I have iiard of vessels getting considerable mackerel on the Cape Breton 'inre. <}. Yon hare not heard of them getting considerable mackerel along [liiMioast ot Trince Edward Island ? — A,, Not large fares inside of the mile line. }l Then, practically, in your Judgment, it is not worth while for the iiited States to make a tight about getting in there to fisii ? All the rouble is really sentimental. United States fishermen get on just as frfl with the right to fish in the gulf, keeping away from 3 miles of the ml ?— A. I don't think it is worth while to make a great fight about it. v'. You think it would not ? — A. It would not. " Are you aware whether these are the views of fishermen at let'ster and Boston, that really the i)rivilege of fishing inshore in 'iffflini 2584 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. British watei-s ddos not amount to mncli ? — A. To the best of my know!. edge the Gh)ucester folks don't consider the inshore fishing in tlic },'iilf very vahiable. (^>. Do they eonsid«n' it of any value at pll '. — A. I should tliiiik tliey would consider it of little value. "*; (^. Would the Gloucester jjcople who are engaged in cod(isliiiii; li(. able to employ their vessels all the year round except 'or the mackcixl. fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. And they would make more money by cod-fishing without iiiikk- ereling? — A. 1 did better myself cod-Hshing than niacUereiing. Q. About the general trade. Do you believe the Gloucest*^" iicople could give their continuous attention to cod-lishing without n.ackeul fishing ?— A. Without that of Bay St. Lawrence— 1 do. ::;^'' Q. And without fishing for mackerel in Bay St. Lawrence theyVvonM get along just as well if — A. 1 think so, Q. And make more money ? — A. I made more cod-fishing mysell'. ■ ' Q. What you have done, other people could do, I suppose. You can- not account, under the circumstajices, for the desire of Americnn li.-ili- ermen to get tlie privilege of fishing within three miles of the shore in the gulf, can youf — A. No; I don't know whether they do wish to lisli within the three miles or not. Q. Do you mean to tell me they do not; if you mean it, say so '—A. I am not prepared to tell yon they do not. Q. Suppose they do, you cannot account for it ? — A. I can only ac- count for it, to the best of my judgment, by their not doing much within three miles, as far as I know. Q. Can you account for their wishing to get the privilege of gf)iiig within the three miles ; you would not wish to go within the three niiks yourself? — A. I would not give mucli for it myself. Q. Can you account for anybody having that desire * — A. I am uot prepared to say iu regard to other peoi»le. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Are you now interested in any fishing vessels ? — A. No; 1 am uot. Q. You have a thorough knowledge of the number of the vessels fitted out iu Gloucester for the fisheries ! — A. I could not tell you the exact number. Q. Could you give me au approximate number? — A. To the best ot | my knowledge, about 500. Q. Can you tell me how many are engaged in the cod-fishing business] alone ? — A. Xo ; I cannot. Q. Can you give me the approximate number? — A. To the best of my knowledge, I should say UOO. I may not be correct. Q. How many may be engiiged in cod-fishing at one season and inaot ereling at another f — A. A great part of those which go mackerelinggi)| cod-fishing early in the year. Q. Then the greater number of the 500 vessels would go cod (islii and about 300 would go mackereling at one season of the year .'—A. I| think so. Q. You fitted out for cod-fishing, about what time ? — A. Many vessels fit out on 1st February, the greater pait of them then. Q. And they continue cod-lislnng till when ? — A. About Lst July. Q. Then they go mackerel-fishing in the gulf, till about what time A. We leave the gulf about 1st November. Q. Are those vessels employed in anj- manner between the time tin'j a^'cs. Q- You hire i iigcs!~A. No; Q. Are the ci jietlicr, }ind the ritMv hiied for t iierring voyage peiliaps months, Q- 's the san)( 'i?*'.^ :'— A. Not I . But genera JlJf.v ifiiiy not h{i Q- You have s kS7(> and 1875, in, I'le Island Bank ■If the (irand Ban Q. How many ' liave been i)Hrts o" , Q- That is betw I'ffore 1870. Q. Then yon wf w- As master ?- 'i>- 1 understood "ere engaged in n V- Bow many o '"•"ks:'--A. E{-er' I ';• 'I'lieu, in poiii 0" lio Banks fishi, V. ion at out for I'i. les. Q. Can you tell n your vessel for a vo A. .Nine barrels of fi Kclsofbeef, ten f Sar, one barrel be hll articles which iy\, .VOH supply ^eylcave/KU • ,V"'.y get it on 'i. tan you ijivA ^''"''l;j)ork,$i7or ^^•'•S oO cents a gal r'f"fs a bushel ; b, ;f'"J'^ per pound. * 'se charges far in excess of the ordinary cash prices of lull ;«i.j(.**S t ► 'iPX 1b',| 2586 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. those articles? — A. I dou't think they are. I am not positive. I may not have been correct in the prices of those articles, but they are as near as I can tell. Q. As au ordinary rnle, are not the prices charged far in excess of tlie ordinary cash prices ? — A. 1 cannot say that they are. Q. Can you say that they are not ? — A. They are not to my knowledge. (}. There was a witness here the other day who said that 20 or 2) per cent, was charged in addition to the ordinary cash price. Are you pre- l)ared to say that those prices you have mentioned were not mudi in excess of the ordinary cash prices charged for those articles ? — A. I dou't think they were; to the best of my knowledge they were not. (}. How many gallons of molasses are there in n, barrel ? — A. 1'8, 1 believe, the way we till a barrel. Q. You have given the results of your macLereling voyages, or at least some of them ; can you give me the results of your cod-lishing voy- ages, as regards the quantities taken, from 1870 to 1875? — A. It would be rather difficult for me to do it correctly. Q. You cannot do so ? — A. Not very accurately. Q. But, upon the whole, the cod-tishing voyages were paying voy- ages?— A. Y'es, with me; I made more thau I «liil mackereling. Q. And does that same reply apply to all previous cod-ttshing voy- ages from 1850 to 1809 ? — A. Yes, with me. I may have made some bud voyages ; I have made some poor voyages. Q. But, upon the whole, the cod-tishing has been successful ? — A. Yes, it has with me. Q. Has not the cod-iishing lieet increased materially within the last two, three, or four years? — A. Yes. Q. Very materially ! — A. 1 believe it has. Q. When did you begin to use fresh bait? — A. From my first going in 1859, we used fresh bait — going on Georges Bank from Gloucester- frozen herring. Q. Did you contiuue to use fresh bait? — A. Every year when I wont to Georges Bank. Q. And how long did you continue to go tc Georges Bank ? — A. I have been there parts of nine wintei'S, making one voyage each year. Q. ^Vhere were you the remaining part of the year? — A. I caiiiu down to the Western Bank, and tlie latter part of the season went to the Grand Bank. Q. Then you made three voyages? — A. The voyage to Georges wasn very short one, perhaps two weeks. Q. Then vou made three cod fishing voyages nearly every vear, from 1859 to 1809 ?— A. Yes Georges. Q. You stated, I think, that you had generally used fresh bait .' I always used it when going to Georges. Q. You said you had fished with both salt and fresh bait, but mostly with fresh bait. As a general rule, you used fresh bait ;' — A. Yes, as a general thing. Q. Did you always fish with trawls? — A. Not always, but perhaps for the last eight or nine years I did. Q. Prior to that you used hand-lines I — A. Yes. Q. Do you find fresh bait as good for hand-line fishing as for trawl and some';imes more thau one voyai;e to A, fishing, it is about the same, I suppose? — A. It is better for haudliue fishing thau for trawl-fishing, perhaps. Q. Have you ever been to parts of the Dominion or Newfoiuidlaudj for fresh bait whilst fishing on the Banks ? — A. Yes. Q. AVhereJ far from Hali of Caiiso ; to of Xewfoundl XewfoijiidlaiK Q. In what bait; wliafc ws affo. I tbink bait. Q. Have yo Dominion and .Vot every year Q. liutgeuei I Ijuve been ui not got it. Q. You Jiave eveiy year I ha Q- For the la tions, perhaps. Q. \Vhen was lor fresh bait ?— bait was eight v Q- To what ps 'i>. You went t i'HUks, 1 8U{)poSt U'estern Bank, j •'"itl liot bait, and Q- How Jong t ^'>V, and thence ""•"flc, and someti until we got bait, i). Uave you e\ i''"'e and Concept . J)id yon evei . '.'• lou havesa '" leference to the 'i'- When had y, liWeioiifcortenV , ^ And they |,a wmi of going inc "IlK'ctions hi reg-ar 2;"^ bait, and s, Q. During eight ''7,'-A.Ihaveh J. h very year ?- v. 'reneraJly ? Q. Can you "name 'J.^arne them - P'"'i'!" >ViIlia„,„ < >„;■ '" •^■**" "''uie p?some time. ';'• ■'^'"•'ug tiie las "le Bank fishiui AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2587 Q. Where have you been ? — A. I bave been to Prospect, wLicli is not fur from Halifax ; to Whitehead, near the Strait of Canso ; to the Strait ofOiiiiso; to Fortune Bay, Newfoundland; and St. Peter's on the coast of Ntivvfoundland ; and to quite a number of harbors on the coast of Xewfoandland, not far from Fortune Bay. Q, 111 what year did you commence to go into those places for fresh Ijiiit; wliat was the first year? — A. I was at Prospect 10 or 11 years afjo. I think that was the first time I came into the Dominion for fresh bait. Q. ITave you continued to get fresh bait in different parts of the Dominion and Xewfoundhmd from 10 or 12 years ago till 1875? — A. Xot every year. Q. liut generally? — A. More than one-half of the time. Some years I bave been unable to obtain it; after looking a nioiitli for it, 1 have uot got it. Q. Vou have come in for it every year? — A. I have come in nearly every year I have been to the Eastern Banks. Q. For the last nine or ten years ? — A. Yes ; with one or two excep- tioiii*, perhaps. Q. When was the first time you went into the coast of Newfoundland for fresh bait ? — A. I think the first time I went to Newfouudhiiid for bait was eight years ago. (,|. To what part did jou go ? — A. Into Fortune Bay. (}. You went from Gloucester to Fortune Bay, and from thence to the Banks, I suppose? — A. We took bait at Gloucester, and used it on the Western Bank, and St. Peter's Bank, and then went to Fortune Bay, aud got bait, and went from there to the Grand Bank. i Q. How long did it take you to go from St. Peter's Bank to Fortune Bay, and thence to the Grand Banks? — A. 1 have usually been one week, and sometimes two weeks, from the time of leaving St. Peter's, uutil we got bait, and reached the Grand Baidc. I Q. Have you ever been in any harbor of Newfoundland between Cape I Ilace and Conception Bay for bait ? — A. No. I Q. Did you ever use caplin for bait ? — A. I tried it, and gave it up. I (), You have said you had some conversation with captains of vessels I ill leference to the use of fresh bait ? — A. Yes. I Q. When had you those conversations? — A. At various times for the ■ last eight or ten years. I Q. And they have at all these times expressed their strong disai)pro- Ibatioii of going into ports for fresh bait ? — A. Tliey have very strong liibjectioiis in regard to trouble with their crews, the time spent in ob- Itiiining bait, aud sometimes the price of ice in which to preserve the ■ bait. I Q. During eight or ten years these views have been expresseA by lymi.'— A. 1 have heard it spoken of in that way. I (). liVery year ? — A. Perhaps not every year, but frefpiontlv. I Q. (renerally ?— A. Yes. I Q. Can you name any of the captains with whom you had the con Bwsations? — A. I think I can name one or two. I Q. Name them — A. Tiie lust one who talked with me about it was ■T\'illiciin Williams, of Gloucester. I Q. Can you name any others ? — A. I don't think I can without think- ■iii(!Sonie time. H 'v>. During the last three or four years, I believe, the great majority ■(itilie Bank fishing-vessels have come in for fresh bait, either into the 'i t 'i^f'4^ I Ik tt'' im M> -U" liii ::tfl pJil! ,v i •'■■ r-':.-. Ntf|f/f^;::i 2588 AWARD OF TilE FISHERY COMMISSION. harboi'H of one of tlio provinces or into tlu)se of XewfoiuuUiind ? — v. 1 tliiiili tliey liave done so. Q. In fact, it is tlie {••eneral i>ra('ti('e at this time for all cod lisliin^r vessels on the IJanks to f;'o in for fresh bait? I am not sayinj^ whctlifi it is advantafi'eoiis or disadvantajjeoiH. — A. ."Many of them do. f}. The {^reat majority of them do; nearly all, in fact'/ — A. 1 liiiiik that moie than one-half of them do. I lefer to Gloucester ves.>. An;;'";g to his skill ""•'''■^*<'« priee;,!" ^■'';"«cn'tthi • ^^ f'"it a mat '''• J><>you think ,f'" f'"uiit, «lo tliey not*! iVoin the owners? — A. Yos ; and they are on the wliart' to take ae- count tlicinselves of tlieir catirh. {^. Do yon know of anythiiiji like attempts to (U'f'raiul them ? Wouhl it he a praeti(!al)hA tliinj; i — A. I never heard of siuili a thinfjf beiiij;' done. i). Wouhl it be praetieabie ". — A. I don't know how it eouhl be done. {}, As a lule, crews are attentive to their settU'ineiits ? — A. The ma- jority of tiiem are. Q, And tlie number of persons emph)yed on vessels Is, of eourse, very iaifie. JH) the men who go in (Uoueester vessels (;han;;e from one em- plover to another ? — A. Ves ; very frequently. (j. Are there various habits amoiifj the dilleriMit employers and out- litttM's, as to liberality (U* illil)erality, as to closeness or ;;eneri»sity in iiiukiiifj up accounts and feeding the crows, and are these pretty wl'II known in (Uoueester ?— A. Perfectly well known among the crews. Q. When the (irew comes home the vessel's cargo is packed out. The mackerel are culled over when the crew are present. Is that an open (ir ii close transaction i — A. They are supposed to be all there, and gen- erally are. Q. Tlu'y are i)reseiit to see fair play ; they sec the process of i>ntting tiu'iii into barrels and weighing? — A. Ves; ami one of the crew siqier- inttiids tiie weighing. I}. 80 as to the (Hilling; is there any objection made to the culling .' — A. Tile Clew are always there and speak of it. i). Is it sometimes the case that the owner of vessels, instead of fur- iiisliing a fisherman with his outfit and clothing, gives him an order or indorses his bill on some shop where the fisherman buys .' — A. (Juite iKMinently gives the man an onler to get his outfit and clothes at some dtlicr store. (}. In that case the owner becomes responsible ! — A. Yes. (^>. If the fisherman is lost duiing the voyage and does not leave prop- iity behind him, the owner has to pay the debt ! — A. Tiie owner loses tlic amount. (}. AikI if the voyage turns out unprofitable, and the man has not the money to pay it, the owner must pay it ? — A. The owner has to [iiiy it. (i». From your experience, do you know that, when an owner has a stiire lie retails articles out to his crews at retail prices, and buys ac- cmding to his skill and sagacity at wholesale prices?— A. Yes. (i>. What do you think, on an average, is the ditl'eieiice between the wlioiesiile price at which the owner is able to buy, and the retail price diaified to the crew ? — A. Prol)ably eight or ten \wv cent. 1 (^ Vou don't think it exceeds that .' — A. I do not. Q. Is that a matter perfectly understood by the fishermen ,' — A. Y'es. Q. Do you think the fishermau who has to take credit can do better tliaii Hint, if he undertakes to supply himself ? — A. 1 don't think he can tli)i)etter than that. ti>. Is it not understood to be the business of the skipper to stand by laiHl take accounts of all the weighing and other matters ? — A. Always. i}. He has an intei'est like one of tiiie crew ? — A. Y'es : and more than itlll'V. '^ And an account is made out of what is charged to the crew and 'liat to the master, and the same rate of charge is made to the iskii)- |l«;r as to the crew ? — A. Yes. (}. There is a regular charge for the captain as well as for each mein- htx of the crew ? — A. Yes. '««i^ ^$^ii^.. ^■'u* '"Or y.\ 1' :,yI,.xf--"-i*.>",.>.- ill M 2590 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ri 1 ■ ! n M ■*■ I* #■',. 4. t m By lion. Mr. Kollogg: i}. How many vessels of the mackerel Heet are there that do nothing but fish for mackerel, that is to say, t^hat have nothing to do with c(m|. tlshing, the coasting trade, or West India trade, bat lie up duriiij,' the winter!? How many of the Heet are there thiit do nothing daring tin winter, if there are any ? — A. There are sonie, bnt I cannot tell you tin- exact nnmber. Q. Is there a great proportion of the vessels engaged in other busi- ness connected with cod liishing ? — A. Yes. No. 58. INIaj. David W. Low, postmaster of Gloucester, Mass., called on he half of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. Ily Mr. Dana : Question. I think you w ere born in Gloucester ? — Answer. I was. Q. What age are you ? — A. Forty-four years. Q. Did you at any time go into the tlshing business? — A. I did. m 18(50. Q. Did you go in as a ])artner? — A. I did. Q. What was the name of the firm ? — A. Sinclair and Low. Q. How manv vears were you in it 'I — A. Three. Q. In 18G0, 1801, and 1802 ?— A. Yes. Q. You were engaged in fitting out vessels, I suppose? — A. Yes. Q. Did you ever make a fishing voyage yourself? — A. Yes. (j. More than one ? — A. Only one. Q. Wliat year was it? — A. Eighteen hundred and fifty-five. il. Did you go into the Gulf of St. Lawrence? — A. Yes. Q. What was the vessel ? — A. Austerlitz. Q. Where did you fish ? — A. In Bay Chaleurs and round ^lagdalin Islands. Q. Do you recollect what you caught? — A. One hundred and eighty packed barrels; we got 205 sea-barrels, 1 think. (J. You made but one trip ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you do any of that fishing inshore, within what you siipposiM to be three miles of the shore? — A. Yes, some of it. Q. You tried inshore and off shore ? — A. Yes. Q. What success had you with the inshore fishing? — A. We ciuiglit| some fish. Q. What proportion of your catch ?— A. I should think we caught id or 25 barrels inshore out of the whole trip. Q. At that time the liecii)rocity Treaty was in force ; did jou give the inshore fishery a fair trial ? — A. Yes. Q. In 18G0, 18G1, and 1802 you were partner in a firm engaged in fitting out vessels ; how many vessels did you fit out in that time .'— Aj Eight. Q. Were you interested iu those eight vessels? — A. I was in ptuto] them. Q. What voyages did they make? — A. They were cod-tisliing oi] George's Bank ; trawling for halibut on the Western Bank ; and iiiaili ereling in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and off' the American coast. Q. During what months were these vessels employed iu cod-tishiug ■- A. From January to June; one went for the whole season. Q. And the others from January to June? — A. Yes. Q. When ruary to Jn/i ih \Vhere took tlie nio8 (^ How wj Q. Was hi I to pack the II Q. Your vc (floiiccster at (I Whafcbi A. Herring jn Q. Frozen 1 ^i- Did any minion ports f Q. During t the reports of scIn, m a gene 3Iag(lalen Islai tioned. Q. VVere the yonr ohsei-vatio be culled the tb Q- Mow man' they returned fl end .'~A. Some , 'i>. Did they Yes. ^h In 1SG3 y, i es. Q. ^^'ere you i Q. How Jong 1 Q. To what ra Q. In what em tiou of the war I and conveyaiieiu cleik's olHce I wt Q. Apart from devoted your tim 'i|» statistics with /i>. Have yon h i^ith refeience tt liiisiness and j)opi Q- And those s pamphlets ?— A. If fj"^'« you so H- How many 3 "V the secretary r mending from 18 "'« liloarian of tli . Q. Have they n "'«oiiie instances y-T'^-'-A. The la tlie town report o and those reports J *;"^"'^' as follows: ■ 1 m£ V*''" Tbo following is a tnu! account (if tin; ]K))>nlatioTi of OloiicoHter, in the cdinityii ^K " tOe ( Essex and State of Massachusetts. *"r) i(i,7M ■ in tlie mode of 1H77 (estimated at) 17,01*1 H edfife, A true copy. H fl iri.,,*^ • Attested bi— ■ /f; "."atKSy< 'JOHN J. SOMES, Cilii Ckii: ■ <^' "'« f-*lty of (}i Q. The census is taken once every five years in Massachusetts, alter- B ' ' "^"O" J i uately by the nation and by the State ? — A. Yes. B Table showiiKj the hi Q. The increase in the poimlation of (itoucester seems to be very nnu'li I popnlanon t smaller for the last seven years than it was during previous periods?- B ~ A. Y'es. B Q. You have no doubt as to the correctness of that statement .'—A. B Xo. 1 also beg to submit the following statement: B v.ar.j Or.ouOKSTKi!, AiKjHHt 'Jll, b?;. H The following; is a true and correct account of the valuation of Gloucester, in tlii' H county of Essex and State of Massachusetts, during tlie period nienlioiUHl, as takri: H from the assessor's books: H i^no si,ii:!:i.:-: B -'i*' ''"'fHstatP^ ir^wi ^.:!7:i:)-BI.;:?^\5,;;;;;''«t«'o8,..: i^'")"' ■■^> '■''•''. "■'" B I"? ''"''f'l stftVfw" ' Reciprocity lHr)4..., :i.-27-i.KB '"'•>, siato ™; 1::^h::;::::-;::::::::::::::;::::::::::::::::::; vifl-t-'-^f'^^ inborn;; is.w 4, iiM,-,v;,B^'''fi'i" as compared \rn\\\ .i,:i:w,:ji=B"i''ive, i-''i iiii.^B Q. State thesn , IS::::::::::::::::::::::::::--:::::::;::::::: :l:S;;;#;^-'{tfsa^^^ lHti4 ■^;W'''m,;''\''>Pnlatiou 1H(;:. 'i,^M>.:!»'^'""'^abitant. l?cci|irocitY tcrihiuatcd..l-^(>(i .'i, iCriirfW 1870, V'-iln.,*:' i.-r,s .;.7.i7...-m,,''';->t>pnlation isiii (i,!tii:i.-B7i''''' '''habirant Yi'l i'i:;!'m '^■.^'•*''"'''t'on T.. .ry of Washington .A^Vi '."'•'"•"■ iS-;> V./l. I '^^• 1.-74 s.4T--.:>W'',t»:.«2,U.S2,07.X 1^^"' ii,-j>,'.'«l*'.j. Valuation oi Atruocopy. B,,, V "\^' '"'« a'l Attested »)y— B '^''"'t'l'Iy lurffe JOHN J. SOMES, CiVl Ckrim |(;j ^ " W' AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2593 Q. Tin? valuation in lS7o was $9,200,000 odd ; in 1870,89,300,000 0(1(1, aiiil in ISll, 89,200,000 odd; tiiere scoms to he no ditfcroncio Imt ratiier u slijiiit decrease, comparing 1877 with 1875; doCvS that arise from any rliiinpte of system of valuation, or is it, in your opinion, a corre(!t valua- tion made on the same principle If — A. It is a correct valuation made on tbe same principle. Q. During tSte whole period from 1850 to 1877, do you kiu)w of any (;hiui^o in principle on which the valuations are made ? — A. Well, during tlu! war there was an increased valuation put on, on ac(50unt of the in- tiiUion of the currency. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q, Those are currency values, of course ? — A. Yes ; all are so. By Mr. Dana: Q. Since 1870, au(\ from 1870 to 1877, after the more immediate effects of the war had passed away, was any change of policy or principle made in the mode of the valuation of property? — A. No; not to my knowl- edge. Q, What is yonr next paper? — A. It is a table showing the increase oi the city of Glor.cester, Mass., from 1850, when a town, in population and valuation ; it is as follows : Mm Tid'lc in ()<7i,"ti a town), in poiiidation and eahiation. The census of l."^40 tjare the popniufion (i,3r>0. Yiar. /til" Census. \m trniteii States . i-5,) ! St.ntn iM^ : XJiiitt'd States . Kl i StHt;o ' United States . If'ii i Stale s s. .2-s S^5 2 t -3 ''Hi B 7, 786 I ft, ?.:i5, 787 ff,mr. I i, .^ot, :5i24 10, !U)4 I •»,:(:«, 740 11,!«H i 4, S.Mt, a4f5 If), :i'.t7 I 7, 187, in7 Ifi, 7J4 ' 9, ya?, 9(i5 a . o*; w a a a •a — "j a e — sta n ^ S « a %^ ^o $210 :no ;i!iti 40r 41)7 ... -'-3 -^ 5 s'b a 'id li 59 to Q. Have you made a carelul inquiry .so as to ascertain from the i)roper Uiithorities information relative to the increase and condition of Glou- |ce,ster as compared with some other towns of the county of Essex ? — A. ' liave. Q. State these details for towns not engaged in fishing. — A. The [statement is as follows : IST:.. Population of Lynn, 32,000; \aIuation, $28,077,793; 8801 to leach inhabitant. 1870. Valuation, 820,927,115; increase in 5 years, 87,150,078. 1S75. Population of Haverhill, 14,082; valuation, 810,197,132; 8701 |owi('li iiiiial>irant. 1SV."». Population of Lawre ice, 34,910 ; valuation, 824,117,373 ; 809L |»t;u;h inhabitant. iS'i). Valuation of Beverly, $8,545,125; in 1870, 85,503,050; in- ftwe, 82,982,075. 187.5. Valuation of Marblehoad, 81,058,010; ia 1870, 83,115,300; in- Pi'iisc, 8943,310. Tlic above are all njanufacturing nlaces. Beverly and Marblehead fiiHbrmeily large tishingports. 103 P ^wiSS^^^iP SkSv^^^^ 'V^P P"i3y^^^ ,:,■:'% ^^^ m ^ 1 V^ i^|w KHSSI^^Snt ^ ^i^ UranSy^ llli .^11 «'4 ^ ^•'^l.l k 2594 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. itn nw»j *> ti!3 Q. Ljnn is a place which has nothing to do with the fishing bnsi. ness ? — A. Yes ; it is a manufacturing town, and is engaged in tbe sbw business. Q. Beverly has ent'rely ceased to be interested in the Ashing busj. ness? — A. Yes; almost. It has now gone into the shoe business. Q. Marbleliead was the first fishing-place in the United States?— -A. I think so; but it is gone now into manufacturing. Beverly and ilm blehead were formerly large fishing-places, but the towns above men. tioned are now all manufacturing places. Q. Did you make up statistics in reference to the fishing business for the Centennial? — A. I did. Q. And you spent i good deal of time on them ? — A. Y'es. Q. And they were presented to the Centennial Commission ? — A. Yp», Q. Can you give us some statistics with relation to the fishing-towns of Massachusetts, showing what the eflect of this difiereut system ot fishing in the bay has been, as far as you can, on the fishing business of Massachusetts f — A. I have a table showing the valuation of L'le piin cipal fishing-ports of Massachusetts other than Gloucester. It is a> follows : Tahle shotring the valuation of the principal fishing ports or towns of Ma»mchusett>, o'r.ir than Glonce8ter, in IfsTo, as compared with 1870, Place. Year. 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1870 1875 1875 1b70 Valaatioo. Decrease. Iiicreaf. $2,0,57,100 2, 014, 700 1, 007, 442 770, 334 542, 400 246, 108 137, 070 195, 745 9, 769 6, 150 30,017 98, 957 Provincetown BrewBtor 1,981,161 1,844,191 747, 849 622, 104 1,41'!, 017 1,402,248 Tarniouth Sandwich . -- 1, 40,5, 100 1, 398, 9.50 1, 478, 20.. 1, 448, ,587 Donuis Orleans .5v:0,G21 432, 364 877,149 812, 849 ■Welltlcet Total decrease in valuation, eiglit ports 697,110 Ga^u in one port Q. You have taken every fishing town in that particular State?— A Y'es; every town which 1 knew had vessels engaged in fishing in tliej whole commonwealth, except Gloucester. Q. Were these statistics made up by you before you knew aiiytiiinj! about the meeting of this Tribunal, and without any reference to it whatever? — .\. These were made up here from the books whicli I li:»\e with me. Q. And you made up your statistics for the purpose of the Ceuteiil uial ? — A. Yes; and I have also other statistics. J (j. You were very thorough in your preparation of them for tlie Cent tenuial? — A. I tried to be so. Q. Tlie origi were prepared Q. Have 301 gulf fisheries, i erv and the Gu is as toiiows : yiimber of fishing v 13b'9.-l[)4 vessels i I.')! vessels c Mackerel cai cester . . . . Mi 1875,-.''.'J v.NsoIs in, li/ vusselsA The averago catch ami 28 vi^.s.sel.-. m l,a^ liriiis li:i' .. ,lon,. betN Q. You do not, ir has nothing to 1 Q. Will vou sta ti«?-^, xhv. lot ?iilf, and f!io,>a wl tlie information of report for IS 75 wa, but by some one w Q. Can you say, up 'or Centennial | ^i- ies; I believe I „/atthey8ay,or feahont, you have, rne of the firms? ^Jf„|/in„e„g.age,l . V. lliat 18 the fir F'Ttl, because I wi, 'mm AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2595 W^- Q. The original census from which these statistics were obtained, ivpiH prepared without any reference to this Tribunal t — A. Yes. Q. Have you ever made up any statistics relative to the shore and gulf fisiieries, showing the difference be' ween tiie American shore fish- ery iuul the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishery i — A. Yes, and the statement is 'as follows : Sumher of fshing vessels in Gulf of St. Lawrence mackerel fishery and the American shore mackerel fishery . Barrels. 13(;9_-li)4 vessels in gulf, average catch 209 barrels 40,r>4() If)! vessels off shore, average catch 2*22 barrels y:j, 552 Mackerel caught by boats aud some Eastern vessels packed in Glou- cester 19,028 Mackerel inspected in Gloucester 93, 1 2fi ]a75,_5>J vessels in gulf, average catch 191 barrels 11,078 ilJ vessels American shore, average catch 409 barrels 47, ^7^"^ 58, 9:51 The average catch is based on the average catch of 84 vessels from 17 firms in 1809 ; 1(0(128 vessels in ''av ud 62 vessels oft' American shore from 20 lirms in 1H75. These tiriiis li'' ■ doiii' bet than the rest. Q, You do not, i suppose, include in this statement any but vessels — It has nothing to do with boat-fishing \ — A. No. {\. Will vou state from what source you have made up these statis- tics?—i*, J in information concerning the vessels which fished in the j;iilf, aud Ml > »a which fished off our shore, I obtained and tabulated for tlie information of Gloucester when I was town clerk, in HOD, and the rejwrt for 1875 was procured for Centennial i)urposes — not by myself, but by some one who did his work well. Q. Can you say, as a matter of belief, that these statistics were made up tor Centennial purposes and not with reference to this Tribunal f— A. Yes; I believe that is the case. Q. From what sources were those for 1875, for instance, taken ? — A. Tlie catch was taken from the reports of the number of firms 1 men- tioned. Q. To how many firms do you refer?— A. These include the most sue- , cessfiil firms, George Steele, &c. Q. Those are the firms that had been the most sviccessful, whether on I our shore or in the Gulf of St. Lawrence; whirh are considered to be the most successful firms in Gloucester? — A. » eorge Steele, Leigh ton «& [Co., Dennis & Ayer, and Smith «& Gott. Q. These are generally considered to be the most successful firms ? — A, I Yes. Q. Were th&y all included in this return ? — A. Yes. Q. The tonnage of the vessels was somewhat larger in 1875 than i " Imsin 18691! — A. I think not. 1 think it was about the same. Q. Ill order that the Commission may understand whether these iGloiicester merchants, when making their statements here, are guessing [at what they say, or have absolute data to go upon and know what they pe about, you have, at our request, made an examination of tlie books one of the firms?— A. I have examined the books of the most sucr *ssful firm engaged in the bay mackerel fishery. Q. That is the firm of Mr. Steele?— A. Yes^ I did this of my own fccciird, because I wanted the Commission to see how these Iwoks are ppt. \T, ( df' ''^' Ml "n€0.'^. ' -"V ^fSi, ■*«w. 'f^iit.,; > i*'' :*■«• i')^ ^^^^S-^ »■•'«-..«: i¥n'l 2596 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. */ si! fells W Ik, to.- ■•'-<.. kt- !■ 11 «*.!"-f,.„. W '4 #s«iS-,.< F*"flr CijK •,:.. «[% Q. Will you produce these books ? — A. I have the trip-book, which I have numbered one, ibr the years siuce 1858 and 185!). Their i)revioiis books were burned in the fireat fire at Gh)ucester in 1864. I have tlie trip-books for the years extending from 1858 to 1870, inclusive, 1!) years. Q. What is the meaning of tlie terra "trip-book"? — A. This is a bonlc with which the voyage is made up and settled with the crew, showing tlie parts which belong respectively to the vessel and the crew. The vov- ages of all the schooners from 1858, as long as they were running, are drawn out. I have prepared an abstract from these books ; also a sum- mary of that abstract and an explanation of this summary. This is a summary of all the voyages made by the fishing- vessels of George Steele from 1858 to 1877 ; it shows the time employed in the cod ami halibut fishery, and those engaged in the mackerel fishery oflf the Aincr ican coast and the Gulf of St. Lawrence, giving the amount and value of their catches, &c. (For summary of the voyages see Appendix to Evidence.) Q. All this you were able to take from these books which the firm kept for their own convenience ? — A. Yes. Q. What is that? — A. As you all well know, in Gloucester, our fish- ing-tleet meets with a great many disasters, and a great deal of inonev has to be given in charity to widows and orphans of fishermen ; and so for a few years back it has been the |)ractice among vessel owners to deduct, with the consent of the crews, of course, from the gross earniiins of their vessels, one-'iuarter of one per cent, to be given to the widows' and orphans' fund. Q. The owners contribute half and the men half? — A. Yes; and this is put in as a stock charge. Q. Is it not th<5 case that the number of widows and orphans occa- sioned by disasters in the fishing business has been large? — A. O, jcs, The statement continues : The amount of the "stock expenses" is foi.nd on above snuimary by doubliog the vessel's share, which adds the crew's share, and taking that araonnt from the "grosi stock," this leaves the amount of the " stock expenses." By dividing the " value of the catih " by the " barrels caught" (packed), this gives the average value of the mackerel, exclusive of packing. The number of " vessels employed " in viach class of fishery, shows the number en- gaged in that particular tishery some part of the year, and the " number fitted' j,'ive8 i the total number of vessels owned and fitted each year. It will be found by the " summary of voyages," that from 1858 to 1805, inclusive, (hi" average catch of his vessels in the Gulf of St. Lawrence was 3:}8 packed biuTcIs of mackerel, which sold, exclusive of the packing and barrels, for fll.lO per baiivj of j 200 pounds. From 1865 to 1872, inclusive, the average catch was 280 packed barrel sold for $14.40, average price per barrel. From 1872 to 1876, inclusive, the avtriisel cntnh w!is 221} barrels, sold at an average price of $10.01 per barrel, exclusive of bamll and packing. f The average time of each vessel employed in the Gulf of St. Lawrence niiickerell fishery was 4 months 13 days by 6.3 vessels, yearly for 17 ye.ars. The avcraiic eatchl was ;?04 packed barrels, the average price sold for, $12 per barro'. The vessels' share fetj the 17 years, $372.66 per month each ; the average share to the crews, $24.84 per inontlif each. ibe average time employed in the cod and halibut fisheries was 6 mnnths l"ti;iyi| each year, for 19 years, by 8.21 vessels. Average vessel's share per mouth, *i!V.!.'21. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. I thought that in your previous statement of month by month, i| was $.'500 and something? — A. Yes ; it was ^M2MC) in the gulf. Q. And what was it in the cod-fi.shing ?— A. $3^)2.21. Mr. Sti-t'iLsve^ sels have been unusually successful in the Gulf of iSt. Lawrence. liy Ml Q- And th( stateuu'nt coi Avenjg3 sli,are Tile a\erage ti W (lays each yea barrels ofnnickei barrel, exclusive Crew's a\'erage si The average tin uvi'.l vessels yea j;V2^"'.08, or.$:J40.! im:3i, or §27.83 r Q. The cod fi profitable than sliare,s were nioi A, Tlie former i fewer men. Q- J" the mi fjiiire(l?_A. Th( 1.^ men, while in men, . Q- Will you se "1 detail how it i. ™.vage of a Gran ^"Itbait. The St Sailed for Grand Ba "''^eut, 3 months 8 da ^J,fie5 lbs. lari^e cod, a j;-. bs.s,„alleod,'a* '• •■' (J lbs. damaced o, a- '^^■'^«' (''a '.'■'fffilk „,i at^-^ •^"""'er galls, blubbe^ I'css stock charg ^^l Crew's 4IS U-n'.-'"''"''"'!... j|. r , ""' Austin •uaiiiuoo ."J Tiilal.... AlWARd of the fishery commission. 2597 l]y Mr. Dana : Q. Ami the most 80 of any ? — A. Yes; that is a well-known fact. The stateuu-nt continues: Average share to crews, averaj^e 9.5 men, §3S.l"i ))or month. The average time oini»loyed in the American shore mackerel fishery was 2 months 10 (lays eacli year for 9 years. The averajje catch per year for 2.3 vessels was 239 barrels of mackerel ; the average price whi(;h was in years of low prices was §7.10 per Larrel, exclusive of barrel and packing. Average share to vessels per month, ijiiUO.OO. Crew's average share, §20.70 each |, ir month. Till' average time the vessels wero employed in all the fisheries was 9 months 14 days bv SKI vessels yearly for 19 years, for which time the average share for each vessel was i3,2'.i''.08, or §340.92 per month. The crew's shares, average share for each man, .vas $iG4.3S, or §27.83 per month to 12.25 men, the average crow for each vessel. Q. The cod fishery seemed in one respect to be superior to and more prorttable than the mackerel fishery, and in another less so. The men's shares were more in the cod than they were in tlie mackerel fishery ? — A. The former is attended witii a good deal less e.Ki)euse and re Williu**! GoMbee 2)»a, 718 77 Gross stock. 12) 1,35:1 38 (J Gross stock.) IH Williiim AlbiTt Gnptill i til Maliolm A. McKiuuon J IW I'haili'H Austin ii" John Welfli <['^ lianu'v Canivflii 113 28 Gross sliare, DeJuct 19 74 ExpeuBU. *''^ Alex.McLo.wl J 4t!y Thomas W.'lsh J Crew's exponws 93 54 Net share. Ti)tal 1,91)8 67 ;*'•••■:, > l''*?il^; :-:'m'^m'--^-''. I., IB i: '\,f^^ IP- . ^•^ m i ! ■■.•*.*?'•«■■•■'> It .i,:il: 2598 mm i'-'^^^^''*''*r' AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Schooner Pharaalia, 5 tons ice, at !iii3, from Webster (bought in Gloucester for keeping bait) 1 ton ice at St. Peter's, at ^'.i.'^O, gold, at $1.15 (value of $1 in United States cnntMicy) 5 tons ice at Burene, at $15, gold, at f 1.15 ($;< gold l»er ton) 24{; tons ice at St. John's, at .$21.50, gold, at $1.15 ($10 gold per ton) 5^ tons i(:e at Arichat, at $1G.50, gold, at $1.15 ($3 gold per ton) ri5 barrels bait at Fortune Bay, at $30, gold, at $1.15. 55 barrels bait at Fortune Bay, at $55, gold, at $1.15. 13 barrels caplin, at Sr.. John's, $3..50, gold, at $1.15.. SiO barrels herring, at St. John's, $20, gold, at $1.15.. 12 pairs nippers, at (10 cents (worn on hands in fish- ing) Widows' aud orphans' fund (^ of 1 per cent, oft' gross stock) 5 butts for oil, at $3 5 iron-bound barrels for oil, $12.50 Gauging-fee on oil, 75 cents; 2 hogshead tubs, $7 .. . Wharfage, St. John's, $1.15; consul's fees, St. Johns, $3.18 Entering and clearing at St. John's, $4.fiO Conimissions on bait-money at St. John's, $11. G2 P' rt charges paid by Keene at Sr. Pierre, $5, gold.. . Light dues paid by Keene at Fortune Bay, $17.54, gold Telegram paid by Keene to Arichat, G3 cents gold.. . 1 stock charges Chronometer hire 4 dozen condensed milk Towing, May 26, 1875 Labor on ballast Gun, $2.50; caps, 60 cents; powder, Tarring rigging El well, medicine chest 1,500 barrels (gallons) water here ... 2 feet wood, sawing and splitting ... Water at St. John's Water paid by Keene (master) $15 00 4 03 Cr. Keene (master. 17 25 Cr. Keene (master.) 24 73 18 98 Cr. Keene. 34 50 Cr. Keene. 63 25 Cr. Keene. 4 03 Cr. Keene. 23 00 Cr. Keene. 7 20 7 00 15 00 12 50 7 75 4 33 4 60 11 62 5 75 20 17 73 301 42 Stock charges. 150 71 12 00 Cr. , Sept. 10, 1875. 14 00 5 00 paid Aug. 19, 1875. 23 50 7 10 6 00 5 00 7 50 1 00 4 3; 64 Cr. Keene. Share of expenses. 12)236 82 Crew's expenses. 19 74 (lor each of crew,) This copy was laade from the trip-book of George Steele, of Gloucester, Mass. George F. Winter, bookkee])er, to show the method of settling the voyage of a "Griiiid ] Banker " that used fresh bait wholly. Abbreviations and other matters are explaimJ j in parentheses, thus ( ). ■ Attested. * DAVID W. LOW. Q. Our men use nippers with their lines 1 — A. Yes ; aud some of the! hands are uiarlfed three-quarters, and some one-quarter; those are boysj who pay only that proportion of the crew's charges. By Sir Alexander Gait ? Q. Wliat is the meaning of j^ross expenses, $80.11, following tliej men's expenses in the hook 'I — A. That is tlie amount of those exptJiisesj on tiiat side; several itc- ,.-; which go to make up the sum total arej thus included. Q. Nothing is said about provisions 1 — A. No ; the cost of provision^ in entered on i tienient of the Q. You have ent ki/ids prodi tioii made from Q. For i)rovi ledger, and the (i- And out c kilger shows tb By Hon. Q. f see that boy.s nii(» paid c Q. Voti have iVc. Why are tl the crew did all Q. Tiiey came (h They hoiste iind all that, thei Q- They have ( piiyfor it?—A. "! Q. That has be Q. Well underi Q. Before you tliere, <' damaged <'eiit, 8135.10. Q- ^V'hy should ot it .'—A. Well, J Q. VVhat do yoi '^omgiu somuf'h t Q. How should I ^^altens salted it wi , ':''''"'t put so much I'lro the warm wat( , Q- So that if a v "ttlejlitrereutprop I V- luat IS comiu % Sir Alexa Q ^^efore you lef ot that trip was to I provision her, and 1 Jtothe vessel's shai |0f course, I had no Jj'I'-boolcs, and I mn Pm the time they c I y. What I wantei l^cyage.s, to know v Ital to reckon that. I V. Ot course, if yo fc."-f • ^ «'^'"' P'^liowtheparticu i'e schooner are all page on the credit % Mr. Dana y-I^oes not the ; eilger are made tatcliercost. V, I AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2599 iseiitoredon the owner's ledger ; this is a trip-book, showing the set- tlement of the voyages with the crew. Q. You have read from that statement that so many codttsh of differ- out kinds produced the gross amount of $2,718; but there is no deduc- tion niiulo from tliat which I notice. — A. There is $301.23. Q. For provisions? — A. That 81,208.67 is credited on the owner's lodger, and the schooner has her share of the voyage. (J. And out of that comes the provisions ? — A. The debtor side of the ledger siiows the cost of i)rovisions and outfit. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. I see that you divide that by 12 and 14 ? — A. There were on board l)oys wli(» paid only one <]uarter of a man's share of the expenses. Q. You have there charges for scraping and tarring, splitting wood, iVc. \Vliy are these charged to the crew t — A. Because in former times the crew did all that work themaelvea. {}. Tiiey came aboard the vessel and worked to fit her? — A. Yes. Q. Tliey hoiste«l in and hoisted out, tarred the rigging, split the wood, and all that, themselves? — A. Yes. Q. Tliey have djopped that on the understanding that they have to piiyfor it"?— A. Yes. Q. That has been the usage ? — A. Yes. Q. Well understood ?— A. Yes. Q. Before you leave that, I want to ask you in reference to an item there, "damaged codfish." — A. 13,150 pounds of damaged cod, at 1 (•eiit, 8135.10. Q. Why should there be this damaged codfish ? What is the cause of it ?— A. Well, I have my own opinion of the cause. Q. What do you believe to be the cause ? — A. 1 believe the cause is going in so much for fresh bait. Q. How should that damage the codfish ? — A. My opinion is that the inkers salted it with the idea that they would not go in so much, and li.lu't put so much salt on it. When she went into port so much, going into tiie warm water ic heated. Q. So that if a vessel i ntends to go into harbor there ought to be a j little different proportion ? — A. Certainly. Q. That is coming out of the cold water on the Banks? — A. Y'es. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q ^'efore you leave this schooner, I would like to see what the result lot' that trip was to the vessel . I mean how much it cost ^he owners to piovisiou her, and how much they paid out of that $1,208.07 that went Itn the vessel's share. — A. I have made up a profit and loss account. jOf course, I had no such thing as a ledger to work from, but I had the jtripbooks, and I made up an account ef Mr. Steele's trips in the bay, [from the time tiiey commenced in 1858 to 1876, for seventeen years. Q. What I wanted was, without going into the particulars of these Ivoyages, to know what the actual cash result was. — A. It is pretty Ihard to reckon that. Q. Of course, if you can say nothing more about it you need not thveil ipoii it. — A. I cannot, because the manner of keeping the books does Mt show the particular voyages of any one vessel. The charges against llie schooner are all entered on the debtor side and the result of the fovage on the creditor side. By Mr. Dana : Q. Does not the book of original entries show what the charges iu %e ledger are made up of ? — A. I have what the outfit of a mackerel atelier cost. if rl iSi.l***' pi"''' i!i''^''!S|^^^^|^ p'!i':.w!«|P' \ 9i^ ^Uti-iUif k53^- %i ML 2600 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. «■ I 'I !'*--|r Sir Alexander Galt. No; not a mackerel catcher. Witness. I have a Oiviud B.uilcur, but not any particular voya^je. By Mr. Dana : Q. Sir Alcxamler Galfc asked yon whether you hail not the data liy which you could ujake up an exact prollt and loss account of this par ticular voyage ? — A. I could if I had time. I could ni;ike that voyage the basis in makin<; up such an account from facts which I carry in my uiind in regard to tlie general course of the business. Sir Alexandkr Galt. That would not be exactly what I would like to iiave. By Mr. Dana : Q. That trip was in 1S75 ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, I suppose the object of Sir Alexander Gait's question was to ascertain what the cost of provisions was as oue item. — A. I can give that. Q. From some other book? — A. From a paper I have. Not that par- ticular vessel, however. Q. You haven't brought his ledger? — A. No, only his trip-book. Q. You made this ui) after you arrived here? — A. Yes. All tlicse statistics I made up since I arrived here. 1 had onlj' those materials. I didn't have time in Gloucester. Q. If you were there it could easily be done ? — A. Not for one par ticular voyage. Q. I sujipose the provisions, being bought wholesale, are not cbarjjeit to any particular vessel ? — A. Well, each vessel's outfit is charged to her. Q. But not when they are bought by the owners ; that is mercantile business ? — A. No. That does not aflfect any oue vessel. When they are put aboard any one vessel they are charged to that vessel. Q. That appears where? — A. In his day-book and ledger. Q. Now, you have given the result of a cod fishing voyage, usin^ fresh bait. Have you a similar statement of a voyage where salt bait was used? — A. Yes; I have. The following is the statement : Schooner Madam Roland. 5 barrels slivers (porgie), at §8, iucludiug barrel from William Gard- ner $40 00 5 barrels slack salted ulams, at $11, including barrol from M. Knowl- ton 55 00 6 pairs nippers, at 60 cents (worn on bands in fishing) 3 60 I bnttforoil (liogshead) 3 00 Fee paid for gauging oil 1 20 12 oil-barrels 24 00 Widow and orphans' fund 6 90 II water-barrels used up, at $1.50 ,.... 16 50 Crews expenses. Bait $3 96 Nii)per8 Oil-barrels , Ganging Widow and orphans BlHT Water Wood Towing 15 80 29 77 92 17 50 8 61 2)150 20 stock ell*. One-half stock charges *'''^ 1 12 g.allons molasses for l>eer 5 l)arrelH hops 1 '• Half-barrel 55 barrels water 1' ' 4 feet wood, S. & S. (sawing ami splitting) Towing, August 22,1373 ^ Towing, October 11, lrt73 :! Crew's expenses !"■> ■ Share of expenses (12 men).. S I 2 iifl •"l" sfallons oil, at oi Less stock charges.. l^>. Jlillard F. Harri 'WoiuAfcIntire.. M». ./olin lieed :^. M'illia.n Cnmmi", ■', • :^,"^7« Hadley JtliaresScott.r. l| Charles CogiJl.. J •J. AlexanrlerMuise; '■' • ^""'el W. Gerry. Charles Eriickson J;:- ■John Haffey.. ""• P«ter Green ■Suuilries, for b^;,' Hater . Wood...'.\V" TouJDg . .*'_" "" ^iilauee ...li."^ Total % Sir Alexa % Mr. Dana 8 27 gross stock. John Katlory, who is on wajjos 12) 1,:J71» \'.\ At sTiii ptT month, from 4upn8t 15, 1^715, to 114 'J2 gross share. October 15, l!i7;t,'i months, equal to $100 Hdl expenses out. 166 31 net share. The f»bi>vo was co]iic(l from trip book of George Stool, of Gloucester, Mass., George Y Winter, bookkeeper, to show r,he method of settling the voyage of a Gnind IJ.mkor that iisi'd salt halt, with what fresh bait they caught on the I3unks. Abbreviutious ami otliiT terms used arc explained in parenthesis, thus ( ). Attest : DAVID W. LOW. Schooner Maciam Roland. Sailed fur Grand Banks August 20, 1873. Arrived at Gloucester October 10, 1873. Time absent, one mouth fourteen days. -l.ino barrels large split fish (cod), at 2f 152,238 .'iO •vi^TO barrels small split fish (co. Daniel W. Gerry 106 31 Charles Eruckson (no account) 106 31 J P^^J ^IgeB^' ^^' ^^^' \ John Haffey 106 31 I ill). Peter Green 106 31 Sinulries, for beer 9 20 Water 11 00 Wood i 2 00 Towiog , 6 OO Balance 11 Total 1,304 03 By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Have you in that account 12 oil-barrels, $24 ? — A. (Inspecting ac- Itoiiiu.) No ; I am sorry to say I have omitted that. By Mr. Dana : Q. One voyage is for four months and the other only one month and 'lair?— A. Yes. Q. What appears to be the reason that the voyage an which fresh fcait was used was so much longer than the one on which the salt bait pas used ? Were they tttted for voyages of different lengths or was it tausc of the time taken going in and out ? — -A. That is the way 1 aci- Nut for it. They usually fit for the same length of time. \t^':J^-jf 'f"':i- *^^^,-■■ ^*'=>' ■i"';*^' i;.::M m ■t"*:';^«W- #!«*.„ fSi«ig'i^,%: ■*V-^ r- Al *2602 AWARD OF THE PISFIERY COMMISSION. ri.'^iifl "'•^•+ 10 h ■»■>' k ■ii lii.' Q. Now, we have had oiio voyajje for ood witli frosh bait and oih' with salt bait; have you any other? — A. I have a statement of a niackert!!. catcher. It is as follows: &-hooiu'r OHi'vr EliMtlge, r>r> barrels slivors (port^uw), tit ^(1.50, from Kolipso lot $1557 r)0 7 harnilM cliviiia, at^C), from UnI year 4'2 00 Ditl'oroitco ItetwiMui Hkippur'H account aud wburf account (boo explanation O) Ilarlior duos at Georfrotown, Pi-iuce Kdward Inland, $1 Widow anbanH, 31 contH 52 Milk !»b Towinfj ;W Fly-jib ,... 5(i Sails 21 Hcraping and tarring 57 Modicinecboiit 44 Ho'Hting :{2 Water, 23 cents ; wootl, 7 cents.. . 'M Cook 8 48 26 »3 \ stock cbargos . 4 do/.on milk lloistiu^ ballast Towiiifj, November 'A, 1875 .. KiKK'"K 'ly-.i''* Taking otl sails, «&.c Scraping and tarring Klwell medicino-cbest Hoisting mackerel 1(! barrels water 2 feet T. and T. wood Extra to cook Cook's average, Iti sbares . . . •J(i7 II 5 H :i 8 » ;t 1 10 nil 141 C'.' Cook bas average sbare and balf bis fisb and $10 — 14^ shares. %i2 Mess No. I. Mc89 No. 2. Mess No. 1. Moss No. 2. Crew'g Domeg. -a a □ i ■a a 1 ■a a 1 § •a > ■a .3 i B A 1 1 1 a i 4 a 1 s -a "3 It t 0 30 9 6 11 7 5 15 5 12 11 43 148 168 66 61 159 82 95 118 •m 1241 72 77 92 54 72 90 64 58 44 46 36 12:1 28 43 80 100 72 89 56 87 68 97 16 114 00 26 00 8 7 9.1 « 12 7ri an « TliDinaB Crawley, oue-lialf John Murphy, tureu-(iaarters. John Collin .. ..... ...... 2( 6fi 13 »r ai 126 ir. > a! 26 12 T:* 1: 95' 8 pri I w 8 in 3 137i 22 11 1 168' 11 U-l 3 19' 18 :>: 2; 142 16 2(1 1; 97! i '■" 1 II81 9 ''4 2, 97 14 f'l 1! 105' 9 I'i ... 90i 2-11 ij 90, 8 70 HI 'A TOM 10:1 « 6- a Mike Couf^lilan. ouo-hiilf 55 :ii Alhin Cameron 115 I 51-1 ThomaiJ Green Jofl. Goslin. jr ll!ii 11)5 3 lOi 193 12 29 141 50 3 ■'>0 !W J Cliarles Cantrcll IttJl Nicholas J. O'lJ lien \i*. ') Jnniee Doolev 9 9 5 imim on '"5 1 160 40 100 k\ 80 31 20 9 00 Hi'' a Michael Mnrray John Barrett 183 32 99 15 51 60 a i:«l Total 24 195 249 75 7 100 45 OU 156 10a 1, 252 08 37 100 225 1)0 1,771 i Schooner Oliver Eldridge. Sailed for tbe Bay of St. Lawrence August 5, 1S75. Arrived at Gloucester November 2, 1875. (Absent 2 mouths aud '^S days 24 barrels, lor> pi 7 hjinvls, I0(» jK I'd" hurivLs, 1((-^ j„ ;C liancls, I()0 p(j :••>(> in McsH-niacK-erel ar ''i;''ifJ(! pounds ot I,c(l;'er l««9. W;. |Villia.n Crawl,, I W. Ml,, Colli,, • " f. Maiiiiee Ifickev' .;. M..u,|Cougi;,i I :•• .,:.""" <-""ieron U IMM.Miy Kelloyj J '■'. JliodiasGreen l|;;. J(wq)l. Gosli,,, ir" I ; . -auriana ./. Dif^^ I;;. Charles Cantrell.'. J 1. .James DooJey I* Michael Murray ;• !""■ .'aim Harretj; Milk. #14; haiVaVt; ,,''■>■?■*; serp.and jH.icn,o-chest,.Si(5.; J er..js;}.20; woo, ^a/auce... fef ''f ^«"ce between » sixpper or master k. " the account of th psLort or overruns. f'is"i)av tri,^')'"""' 11\'.5"'*"':. >>ookk, Abbreviafi C( 'Ifafclier, I Attest : fc;'"T-".'««'^«'-eI are „ IjTiiereisanite.n W- Howuinoh V^ ''at does that ►ween the actu [ I'Per's account, "t comes; so it is I U AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2603 I'lukj;. ofFt •.M Icirn-ls, lOr) poundH nicHS No. I iimcki)ivl, at 'iO $l!Kt 50 ': liHiirl'*, 100 jHtimdH mcHH No. 2 iniuikcrcl, iif I'i !t(t (M) I'd IiiiiicIm, \i)'i poiiiHlM nifHN No. 1 mackfit'l.at Hi *2,r>(tl Iti ;{T liiini'ls, 1(10 poiiiuU im-M8 No. *2 muukurul,at I'J 450 00 •w(i y? ',\,'ti'.\ (Ml (kih. Htock.) Le88 Htock (charges 41.') r>t) (nut ntouk.) 2):i, lyrt 10 l,r>G4 05 ''''littliyl •■','• n Mi'ss-inackorol are mackorcl with InmdH ami tailn cut off and 8crapt>d, IohIm^ in n>'l){lit'Ji) poiuuls ou tlie barrul by tlie opuration, but iucreaHing tlio value of tiiu niack- '■'"'-" Crfw 8 names. „,^,!;' m William Crawloy §115 40 •.',11. John Hickov 115 40 j:K TiiniiiaH Crawley, J . 78 48 4.MI. .lolin Miirpliv 50 ;{8 R .Joliii Collin 7t> 5!) '.'.II. Miinrict! Mickey, i (>0 M 4r.'. .Michael Conglilan, A 41 91 |VJ. Allan Caint'ion 118 56 h:i|. Timothy Kolley.i 48 i:j r.i. TlioiiiaH Groen Dti 4(5 h;-. Joseph GoHlin, jr 78 Ui) h,il, Laiiriana J. Dias, cook 190 .50 hvj. Charles Cantrell 79 h7 I.,.'. NiiholHH J. O'Hrien lO'i 08 Itil. JiuiicH Dooley ll'J 12 |;:'H. Michael Murray 10(> ;iO John Hanett 4-i 47 Milk,!? 14; ballawt, 75 cents 14 75 To\viii^,;J5; lly-jib,§8.10 i:? 10 Sail.s, Al{; scrp. and tarr.,|;8 11 00 Mwliciiie-che8t,.1ii6.ii0; hoi8tinK,l$4.50 10 70 Water, $:i.20; wood,^l 4 SO Bulauce 8 1,5(54 05 I Tlio (lift'erence between skipper's account and wharf account is explained as follows : ilesliippor or master keeps account as the ->^ •'V'^^v^i :h^: m'TZ:..^ .,.,, ^, |,j,rj^J(||tp3i#f*^ ■'■.■' ■'•:«» v«> n >n %%ff. m"^- I, 1*1 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 1.25 " *U 22 S IS ||2£ l|[ia. U 11.6 Photographic Sciences Corporation m \^ ^ ^ N> -^ t-^' ^^^ ^\ n:'^",^%> 'i'^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y 14S80 (716) 872-4503 2604 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. all. If tlio balance is in the veAHol's favor it is credited, and if a^^ainst the ve8sel it is charged in tlie stoclc accuiint Q. What is the histurv uf the cooii'.s wages, coming out of the um\ ?- A. In former times the crew had to take turns in cooking, and tlu>ii, uf course, they had so many green cooks, and the fares were so poor tliat they made up their minds to have a cook. Mr. Daviks. Is there any special object in putting tliese in ! Mr. Dana. It is oidy to give a specimen of the manner of making np the accounts for each kind of a voyage. Mr. Foster. It shows also the result of each kind of voyage. Ity Sir Alexander Gait: Q. I suppose the same remark applies to the calculation of tlu> vcs- sel's share in this case as in the other that you have given ? — A. Vos; just the same. I have here a statement showing the method of inakiii;; up the voyage of a schooner to the Graud Banks. By Mr. Dana : Q. Is this codflsh f — A. Yes ; cod and halibut. Wo don't get iniiiiy halibut on the George's in proportion to the halibut caught by those that go specially for it, and go into the deep water, where they are iiiori' likely to be found— about 200 or 300 fathoms. The statemeut is as tol lows : Schooner Howard Steele. Loss stock clinrf^cs. 10 tons ice at. $3, from Wolmter , pO 00 A{) ]h>uiu1n biiit at $1, bought by skippur, with cash carriud ... 40 00 Widow ami OrpbauH* Fuud ^ 1 (>1 Crows' oxpcnsea. Ico Unit Widow and orpbaus'. . Milk Scraping; and tarring. . Water Wood CiK)k ®1 1 3fi 8a 07 40 5W 4 67 2)71 01 stock charges. I stock charges 35 81 1 do/,un condensed milk... 3 50 Scraping and tarring 5 00 12 barrels water 2 40 1-foot wood (sawing and splitting, v\cc.) 50 Cook's wages 39 34 11)70 55 crow's expenses. 6 96 Share of exx)enBeH 6 96 Crew's names. EilFlagg James Mmlden . . Tbos. Kelly Ea.ONeil Dan. Donahue ... John K);an Kich. Johnson ... AxFl Obson John Lewis D. Kennisnn . . . John Bi'ien, cook Total Fish. a 311 3i(7 375 343 305 39-) 315 :i90 416 305 359 3,731 White halibnt. a ■a > t35 (!1 3J 69 30 87 38 34 35 11 36 76 35 94 36 35 34 35 30 0.> 31 33 ill «•= If P4 66 30 64 82 18 88 39 31" 30 47 60 307 30 I 485 •if 57 36 55 71 15 34 33 18 36 40 .53 417 e a a o 5 %\ 71 78 1 65 S 13 45 7S 99 54 78 1 30 1 56 Orny halibut. 13 51 |- •an <2' 8 30 19 13 155 13 343 10 06 I 7 96 17 10 133 11 It 39 25 15 1 !)9 17 301: 25 93 1 86:4 3" Oil 308 ' ;i n ^^'M AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2605 AvernKO price of fiHli 1(> 40- UN) coiits «muli. Cuok Iikh nvorago Hliaro, and half his flsh ntyitoiiu Hliiiro (if all oxpoiiHUH. Siiiif-l(! Hr>. HI '.till lliH. ii(illiu!k,at Ti-H l.iU Wnal. livurH.ut If) 21». 10 CukIi for hwokI-11»1i 4.75 G14. 41 4''o(leHH 1ioa(l8)=:4i. Urn. wliito halilmt>, at G 'Zit.O'i Hi " ::^20H Iba. gray halibut, at 3 (i. 24 145. f.8 Gross Htock. Less stuck charges 71.01 2).'-)74. (M> Net stock. 287. OH Aint. vcssul or crow's share. WsorpiiRo. Crew's iiamtis. Mi-t Aliiiri>«. :{H(! Edwin Flngg 20.;«)cr 41.'> James Madden 2 Tliomas Kelly 25,. 'SO pd* 4.'')(i Edward O'Nell 22.52 pd- 415 Daniel Donahue IH. 1)1) pd- 415 .John Egan 20.77 pd- :U»2 Nicholns Johnson P.). 97 pd- :«»•-' AxolOlson 20. OH [id- 4;t5 John Lewis HO. OC) \iA- 441 David Kcnuison 24.29pd' Nuncut. John Uricn, cook 45.44 ))d> Milk H.-WiKl. Scraping and tarring 5.00 Water 2.40 Wood .50 Balance 2 2H7. OH This trip or voy.age was copied from " trip book " of George Stele, of Gloucester, Mass., rtfiir;,'!' F. Winter, bookkooper, to show the method of settling the voyage of a George's Banktishing-vessel. .\lilireviai ions and other terms used are explained in parentheses thus ( ). .\tte8t. DAVID W. LOW. In tlie Georges tisbing eacJi maii'.s halibut, when he catches them, are jmiirked either oil the head or the tail with hi.s private mark. The i'0(llisli are thrown together, but each one cuts out the tongue and throws itiuto a bucket. Tiien the skipper counts them up at the end ot the (liiyand sets down a memorandum ol' how many tish each man has caught. The halibut are hiiided and weighed, and each man is credited I with the number of tish lie has caught in detail. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. That identities the Imlibut, but how are the cod identified t They |Dwy vary from two to twenty pounds? — A. They make an average. ' By Mr. Foster : Q. Wliat was the number of the crew iu that trip ? — A. Nine bands, llthiuk. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. I want to ask yon one question. I see this vessel took 40 barrels of |))ait, and was out only thirteen days. Could she possibly use thatT 2606 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. What kind of bait is it ? — A. Herring, or probably alewi ves. Tliey take money to buy bait, and go to Cape God or down east — generally to Ca|)« Cod. Q. Tbey would not have it on board when they sailed ?— A. No ; they take money and buy it from a baiter outside if they come across a baiter on the way, or if they don't they go down to Cape Cod. By Mr, Foster : Q. That quantity, if notnsed, wonhl not be wasted ? — A. No. They use hand-lines on the Georges, and are more liberal in the use of bait tliau the trawlers. Q. You would not say, I suppose, that they would use up that bait in that time? — A. I should say not. But they always look out to get bait enough, if they have a chance. By Mr. Dana : Q. Have you made out a table to show the cost of a new schooner in the year 1875, fltted for each kind of business, or for the two kiuds of business — cod and mackerel ? If you have, take one of theiu.— A. I have. The first I take is as follows : Coat of a new schooner, in 1875, at Glouce»1er, Mass., fitted for the mackerel fishery read j for sea, tcilh 17 hands, vessel 67 tons, for a three months' voyage. Cost of hull, including spars, patent windlass, and patent steerer $5,riOi) RigRing, including sails, rigging, blocks, stove, tinware, 45 x'athoius chain, 100 fathoms 8i-inch manila cable, and 2 anchors (1,060 Ibs.^ 3,2 OCTKIT8. Bait, 55 bbls, of porgies and 7 bbls. of clams W Salt, 50 hhds.of salt It") Sundries— bait-mill, seines, hooks, adzes, and other articles used on deck .^n Provisions, including fuel and oil for light for 3 months Iw Sundries — lanterns, horns, compasses, charts, bunting, spy-glass, log, sounding line and lead I*' Barrels, 450 hsh-barrels, unheaded and numbered l'& Total cost of vessel, with outfits 9,"j FOR 8KINING— ADDITIONAL COST. Seine, length 200 fathoms (1,200 feet), depth 30 fathoms, 2Ht>ch mesh, fitted ready for use P Boat, seine-boat, fitted ready for use '-JVi Dories, fitted ready for uso '" Less 50 bbls. bait, $325, and provisions for 3 less men 3 months, $125 4'<) j Total cost of seiner, with outfits ^,-''^\ By Mr. Davies : Q. Is that an actual case ! — A. It is from the cost of an actual vessel. | It was procured from an actual vessel fitted ready for sea. It was pro cured as a specimen for the Centennial. By Mr. Foster : Q. You did that yourself? — A. Yes; I went and procured the state meut from the owner, who bought the vessel and gave me the items. By Mr. Dana : Q. You make a difference between the coat of a vessel for seining and one for hand-liniDgf — A. Yes; the vessel fitted for hand lining cosiii Coit of a woo schoo AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2607 $9,775, for seining $10,525. She has to be provided with a seine and geineboats and dories, wiiich come to $1,200, but she does not carry so many men or uge so much bait, which makes a difference in her favor of $325 against the $1,200 added, leaving a btilance of $750 to l)e added to the cost of a vessel fitted for hand-lining in order to fit her for seining. Q. Now, can .you give us a similar statement of the cost of a vessel for trawling halibut on the Banks, made out in the same manner for the Centennial 1 — A. Yes ; I have it. It is as follows : Co$t of a nnc schooner at GloHcesteVf Mass., in lf!i7b, fitted for trawlhg halihnt on the Jianka- VeMel of 71 tons, cost ^8,000. Vessel made 9 trips to Western and Grand Banks, be in^r at sea 302 days, with 12 luen fur crew, at the iollowiug expense, viz *. TravlRear $1,023 25 VesHei'H e.ipense account 1.H22 25 Provisions, &o 1,426 0',i General eliurges, ice, bait, salt, dec I,i:ta bO $5,408 64 Q, Is that carpenters' measurement T — A. No ; that is new measure- ment. Q. The carpenters build by their own old measurement, don't they ? — A. Yes; they build by their own old measurement. Q. But this is the registered tonnage ? — A. Yes. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. I understand that this vessel cost $8,800, while the other cost 85.500 ?— A. This is 71 tons. Q. Well, there is only a difference of four tons between this and the kst yon gave ? — A. I know that, but the $8,800 includes cost of rigging, while the other is only the cost ot hull. By Mr. Dana : Q. I suppose there is a difference in the style of building 7 — A. We can get vessels built cheaper down East than at Essex, and some at Es- } »ex cheaper than others. It is according to how they are built. The following statement shows the cost of a schooner fitted for cod and bal- [Ibut fisliing on the Grand Banks: I Cos(o/fl new schooner, in 1875, a< G!onct rv,ter,(H)l)bls 12 |lto,l'2,U00pogie8, or berrintr 100 1>1 34 IJipiwrs, 'ii dozen pairs woollen 12 |Proviiiious 800 Total costof vessel, with oatUts 10,734 2608 AWARD OF THE FISHERT COMMISSION. I liHve now a statement of a vessel Qtted for the George's Bauks, for cod-flsbiug, ready for sea. It is as follows : AT GLOUOESTEB, MASS. Veiicl fitted for O«org(?» Bank coA-fi»hing, ready for tea, aumnier trip. Tonnage *n /on«, tcith II hands, 5 wvekg. Cost of bnll ^,,'Hf) S(>arH ^iHi JiiRging ,Vh) Sails r,;,^ Dory '. 14 liO tons pebble ballast ',ii Platforms, ice-koitHes, and other fittings of hold ;:, Gurry-pens and other deck-fittings :iO ^30 fathoms 8i nianila cable, weighing 3,;)04 pounds 4:11 3 anchors, of rUH) pounds each 1.1) 6 dozen 16-pound lines, 3 doeen gauging lines |0 Lanterns, horns, compasses, charts, bunting, spy-glass, log, &o imi 10 tons ice, for preserving bait and halibut :ii) 40 barrels bait 40 Wood and coal ID 14 barrels water :; Provisions for 11 men, 5 weeks , i;;, Total cost of vessel and outfits 7,S'J Q. I believe that in the last but one of the acconnts you read from the returns the small cod was put in. Is that now usually brought in f- A. Yes, it is saved and brought in. Q. It used in former limes to be thrown over ? — A. Well, I don't know about that. Q. Now they are brought in and have a market value t— A. Yes. Q. The liver and other parts are brought in and saved ? — A. Yes. Q. Then the gurry-pen is the pen in which they throw the gurrj !- A. Yes. Q. That is kept and thrown overboard at the proper time and place ?- A. Yes. Q. Have you any memorandum there to show the amount of tlie ini portation into the United States from the Dominion fisheries in any one | year, so as to show what value the privilege is to the people of the Do minion f — A. I have a memorandum of the importation last year. Q. That is obtained from the customhouse ? — A. It is obtained from a book that I saw in the room. Mr. Davies. Let us have the book. Mr. Dana. You need not mind that until we get the book. Will .yniil take any rther memorandum or table you have madef — A. I baveil profit and loss account of George Steele's vessels in the Gulf of St. Law | rence mackerel fisheries for seventeen years. It is made up from bay trip book, Gloucester. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Be kind enough to explain how you made it up? — A. I gave liiinj credit for the number of barrels of mackerel he got, the gross catch ot'j his vessels, and deducted from it the stock charges, making tbe iietf stock, and divided that by two, which gave the vessel's share for tli(^ whole period of seventeen years. Then I charged the outfits aud e)£j peuses. I charged him for the charter what I supposed. Q. Did you take this from his books ? — A. No ; it is an estimate profit and loss account, made up by me. Q. He is the owner of the ship ?— A. Yes. By Mr, Q. Instead giiip you call Sir Alexaj iiiiide ii)> from By Hor (). Ik) you f By Mr. Q. You can , .ViimliiT of vessel t>( .Siiint Ln'/rei wctc sent, by Q luontlis l;{ (lays Sink I'lini'gc,)^ Kiir bait, «Vc , OiiltitH and exp I'riivisiotis lor 15 III ■•'tiliiys. in 107 V l.n .\ 1(»7 X 40 CI liT fiit'I. oil, and ".'UN) bills, salt I"T bait iiiiMs, at k] KlMlill^r.^r, ,,. foj "j iit*J.'. each t Nstoiji-Loii.so and n C'liiirtcr of 107 s,. UK'S. a:i (lays each, inoiith liiMiriinifi on cbarto liiirrels, s:{0,000; "•"''.' : iiiiil outfits, '"tal,.vj7f^,l(iO,af^ ■^kil'I'tTsliip," or P'Hiiiiiissjon, on " 1 ■?•!■'">.*-(», at 4 p«;i- c I'll. T" insiiniMce on lo' ■^^■:i.'),(iO(), at 4 per I'lt'-reht on §r);{r.,00( ^•••"t., 4i mo8 . taxes on |4()0,000, i , .var, for 4^ inoiu ''•"I'lHCiafion on vi ""•^ 107 vessels, ^*alanee to 107 \ •^ft earn lugs of eacl l.r?.^!'.®^^^*^ par are dealing with tL M^- Tbe latter pai 'ouW charter his v |<"^oed the vessel k( 104 F AWARD OF THE BI8HERY COMMISSION. 2G09 By Mr. Dana : (j. Instead of trying to estimate a charge to be made for the use of tbe sliip you call it "charter"? Sir ALEXANDER CtALT. I Understand that one side of the account is miule up fi'om the books, and the other side is an estimate. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: {). Do you find in the book the actual sales ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Dana : {}. You can go on with your statement. — A. It is as follows: XuiiilitT loyeil yearly, 4 iiiDiitlis 13 days; average number of hands employed yearly for 17 years, 15. Sl'.»k rliiiigcB, 17 yt'rtrH. Forbiiit, iVc ^4P,0r.2 HO (iiiltitx find expensen : I'nivisidiislor 15 men for4mo8. i;i iliiys, in 107 vesselH, 15 x i:i:!x 1(17 X 40 ets. per day, for fiu'l. oil, and provisions. "..'lOil bl)ls. Halt 1"T biiit nii''s, at 815 Kisliiii};-i;i ir for 107 vessels, at ^4'> t'aeh liistoiii-bonse and port charges Cliiivtcr of 107 sfhooners, 4 iiios. 2;! days each, at y-iOO per iiKintii IiiMiriiiice on charter, $'.M,MO'.J; barrels, s:{0,000; bait, $4H,- (i,VJ: .ind outlits, §100,406; total, s'i7r*,HiO, at 4 percent. ■Siiiiiiiersliip," or master's coinmission, on " net stock," .'•:l,'),'i,7*U, at 4 jier cent I Catch, 17 yiMirs. :i:i,(i45 bbls. nia5,780 00 85,380 00 8,500 00 1,005 00 4, 815 00 •2. 140 00 Charterer for vessel's share. .. 177, i^lW tM) Crows' share 177,81(0 00 :{.'-.5,780 00 Charterers' exi)enses 22"i, 005 00 Charterers' share, or earnings of vessel 177,890 00 94,802 00 11,120 -V 14, 2:11 00 222,005 00 Loss 44,715 00 Charterer's loss on each vessel. 418 00 Each vessel's earnings, as per vessel accoHut below 251 00 Actual loss yearly on each vessel .. 167 00 VESSKLS' ACCOINT. Cr. To insurance on 107 vessels, Srar),(IOO. at 4 per cent.... $21,400 00 interest on ^535,000, at 7 per itiit.,4A mos 14,056 00 taxes (in ^400,000, at ^ix per year, for 4^ months 3, 037 00 (le]ir«C'iatiim on vessels, 4^ iims.. 107 vessels, at $275 eiub 21»,425 00 Balance to 107 vessels. 07, 918 00 20,884 00 Charter ¥00,802 00 90, 802 00 94, 802 00 Net earnings of each schooner, .§251. Q. The first part of that statement, I understand, assumes that you [are dealing with the charterer ? — A. Yes. Q. The latter part shows what would be the result to the owner if he Iwould charter his vessels to some one else ? — A. No. If the owner who jowued the vessel kept his account as well as the charterer. IG4 F 2610 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. IJy Sir Alexaiuler Gait : Q. The iiiau who charters the vessel wonhl lose! — A. The (iiio who chartered the vessel and fitted her tor tlshing loses $418, and tiio one who lets him have the vessel makes $2ol. Q. Besides interest on his vessel ' — A. Yes. Besides interest on tln' valuation of his vessel. By ]\Ir. Davies : Q. Allowing for depreeiation f — A. Yes. Q. Ten per cent. ? 1 did't hear yon read the allowance (or d^'prcii i. tion. — A. "Depreciation on vessels iS months, 107 vessels, ai j.';:, each— 1!!21),4-'5." Q. What rate is that ? — A. I didn't reckon it any more than wliat, in my judgment, the depreciation would e re of? I don't mean incurring any extraordinan expenses, or suffering from extraordinary negligence, but witli ^fonij ordinary care taken of her? — A. The Hrst year she would dei)U'iiatt $1,200. That is, supposing her to cost i?>S,0O0. By Sir Alexandcsr Gait : Q. Why should she depreciate more the first year than the second .'- A. Because everything is new, and if at the end of a year you want to sell a new vessel, she will not bring so much. All these articles have to be renewed at the end of two years at the most — sails, riggiii;;, and | everything of that kind. Q. Then it would seem she should depreciate more the second year. By Mr. Dana : Q. A little of that depreciation must be fancy. It is just like thi, ordinary case w he I e secondhand gooj good as new ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think a merchant, having to make up a profit and Idssj account and wishing to know his exact position at the end of a ,vear(iu| that trip, would allow that amount? — A. 1 think he would strike oU| one thousand two hundred dollars. Q. That is, in making up an iicconnt with himself, in which casehebii no motive for misrepresenting the value. It is based on the tlieor\ tiiii; if he had to sell her under fair average circumstances he would losetliai| amount? — A. Yes. Q.Now, what do you think the depreciation would be at theendolj five years ? — A. I think a vessel built for $*\000 at the end of five year would not be worth more than $0,000, kept, of course, in good niuuing order. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. That would only be $800 depreciation for the last four years. liy Mr. if. Now, do sir. i). Is flip ,1, A. Not so mui (iltlip Miird yt Q. Sli!« gets (). Tlu-n aff( sails, jiMoyou thin iiiand. Q. Do your Stat -»eyon the nnmli /t>. 1 mean the i tliat. Q- ^Vhat was th( jear as a specimen f pickled fish, wh |1^''. wliieii cost $4i % Sir Alexa Ji- Wiiere is tha Nmmissary Genera toa letter I wrote h y. That might be p-'L^'nted States p! % Mr. Dana , ^' Tiiey delivered siiine so. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2611 Hy ^f r. Dana : {}, N»)\r, does tlie mto of depreciation diminish as you go on i — A. Yc8, sir. (^. Is the depreciation for the second year as ureat as for tlie first ? — A. Not f*" niucli, but it is more tlian tlie third year, because at the end 1,1 the third year she iias a new suit; of sails. Q. She pets a new h'ase of life, almost f — A. Yes. (^>. Then after that ye r I suppose she always has a i>roper suit of sails, iiimI the depreciation diminishes on that vessel f — A. Yes. Q. The period of gn^atest depreciation is from the t'uiw. she is brand new to the time when she is not brand new ? — A. Yes. Hy Mr. Foster : Q. Mow many months are these vessels employed per annum on an iivt'iiiyc? — A. It is stated in tliat summary exactly. (I, Mr. Steele's vessels would be ab«)ut the averajje of the whole Heet ? -A. Vcs. Q. You have called the average JJ^ST") (or the depreciation on a trip of tour and a half months f — A. Yes. Q. Tlien that would be ."jf.lob depreciation for the year? — A. Yes. (}. Tliat would be an average for the cour.-e of her life ? — A. Yes. {]. The cost is assumed to be how iiuu^h *. — A. That averajje depre- ciation is based on an average cost of $■>,()(>(>. By Mr. Dana: (^ Have you any other tables except the little oiu^ that we threw nut?— A. No other tablevS. 1 have a tiescriptioii of how a voyage for aiaclverel-tishing is conducted. Q. We won't have that at present ? — A. I have a statement of the (|uantity of tish furnished to the Army during the war. Q. You were active in getting tish put into the rations of the Army? —A. I was. Q. You may state, without going into figures, perhaps, what effect, that had upon the fishing interests of CJIoucester during the time the war lasted? — A. I think it improved it. It ntade a better umrket for tlie tish and gave them higher prices. Q. Do you think it had a sensible etfect ? — A. It increased the de- I uiaiul. Q. Do your statistics enable you to state to what extent? — A. I can jive you the number »)f barrels «)f fish used in the Army. Q, I mean the quantity sent from Gloucester ? — A. No, I can't do I tliat. Q. AVha! was the quantity used in the Army annually. Give us one [year as a specimen? — A. In the year IHIU they used 5,009,000 pounds lot pickled fish, which cost $S9o,547.2(5, and 6,lo(),858 pounds of dried |yi, which cost $451,025.. By Sir Alexander Gait : . ^Vhere is that taken from ? — A. It is taken from a letter of the jloniinissary General of Subsistence of the United States Army in reply |to a letter I wrote him. Q. That might be the cost as delivered to the Army ? — A. That is what |tlie United States paid for it when they bought it. By Mr. Dana : Q. They delivered it at their own expense to the troops ? — A. I pre- piiine so. 2612 AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MMI8SI0K. ». Q. Now I would like to ask you Homewhat the same qtieHtioii I did J another witnesH, but I want to put it beyond doul)t. Vou know tb«j make up the v(»yageH, and the details go into those books. Hup|)OM;i fisherman wants to know how much he is charged for his provisii)im,|it| has the means of knowing it from the books of the owners 1 — A. Tljet^l are no provisions charged to him in our books, unless he is on wbatL<| called winter-shore fishing. Q. That 1 don't care so much about. But whatever the items »> I that are charged to him, he has tlie means ot knowing by the acudiui. given him, and also by examination of the books, it' he wishes it !— i Yes. f^. And every owner of a vessel in (rloucester has to have a trip bofiLJ doesn't he, aiul to have his aciiounts regularly kept ! — A. Yes. .Soiufl keep it on a sheet of paper and some in books. But all the trips iiavj to be made up, so as to show to the master aiul crew. Q. A sharesman is not obliged to take his share in money, is he ? I has a right to take it in flsh ? — A. Yes, half his fish — that is, alter pays his share of the expenses. Q. Of course he has to pay the incumbrances, but he has a rj;'l instead of receiving their market value, to take them himself and i what he pleases with them f — A. Yes. Q. That is to say, he does not make a contract that he will tako |»,iy,| but by his contract he maj' either take his fish or money i — A. That! just it. Q. Well, do they do that ever ; that is, take their own fisli ?— A. have known instances where they took their own fish; where one ot tlil crew was going home and he thought he could get more for the mackirr| at home than it could be sold for there. {See explanatory note beloic.^ Q. Now, what class of men constitute the fishing crews generally tliaJ go from Gloucester ? Of course we know that there are some bad meJ but how are they as a general thing ? — A. I think they are a very iroodl class of men indeed. (J, It is common, is it, for men to change from the post of njastom skipper to a hand? — A. Yes, 1 have knovvu instances where several skippers have been aboard our vessel. Q. Ex skippers, I suppose, we would call them. There Lave bteij several, you say, on one vessel ? — A. Yes. Q. Are the modes of doing business, the rates and charges ami tM sort of thing, well understood in Gloucester ? — A. 1 think they are. Q. Well, is Gloucester a place where there is or can be any kimlo monopoly or combination among the people who sell to the fislieriiieuo furnish them or is it competition ? — A. Competition, decidedly so. Q. Now, I need not ask you the question, but is Gloucester a placej daily and hourly connection by railway, telegraph, and newspaper m the rest of the country. They have the morning and evening pai)«^ from Boston every day, don't they ? — A. Y'es. Q. Now, I want you to tell me when a vessel comes in from lier fi;*! ing — we have heard it in part, but tell me what is the course of businei when she arrives at the wharf? In the first place, the wharf belougsj the owner or to some onwer ? — A. Yes ; the w harf belongs to the offu or fitter. A vessel may be owned by outside parties aud come thel to fit. Q. There is no separate charge made for the use of the wharf ia tboj cases? — A. No. Q. That goes into what the owner has to furnish ? — A. Yes. L-_ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2613 Q. How is wharf property, high or low f — A. Wharf property is very valuable is Gloucester. Q. I suppose that, like all property, it has tlecroaseil in value, owing to the general ilepreMsioti. Is that so or not t — A.. Well, I don't know of any wharves that have been sohl in (rlouccster. Q. VVell, it may be that wharf property has held its own more than I property in houses and land. liow do you think that is !f — A. 1 think jit has not diminished so much as houses and lands up in town. Q. I Hiippose there is a limit of available wharf property. You have 1 your harbor, and the wharf property must be cnt out of that ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, when the vessel comes to the wharf, what is the first thing L|o„e?— A. The Orst thing done is that the maitkerel are hoisted out oT I the vessel to the wharf. (}. liy the crew ? — A. By the crew, with a hired horse. Q, TJiey have got beyond hoisting it themselves *. — A. Yes ; as soon iasit is landed each man knows his own tish by the private mark which has been put on the head of the barrel, and each stands by itself. The barrels are then unheaded by one of the crew and the tish pitched into the cullinjjcrib, which is 2^ feet wide and 4 feet long. At each end there is a culler — that is, a man who selects the mackerel as No. 1, 2, lanii 3. From this cuUingcrib th"y are thrown into the culling-tub, lat'cording as the culler regards then» as No. 1, 2, or 3. Q. Who are those cullers? — A. They are men experienced in that Ikitid of business — men of good judgment, because you have to rely on Ithe jinlgment of the culler, under our laws, in regard to the quality of Ithe mackerel. It is left to his, judgment. {}. Well, the owner is bound l)y the act of the culler as well as the Ifislierman ? — A. Certainly. Q. Have they ever been rejected ? — A. I have not known of it. Q. These cullers are sometimes on one wharf and sometimes on another f l-A. Yes. When these tubs are full enough, two of the crew take them land lift them on the scales, where they are weighed by the weigher. As Isoon as they are weighed he cries out " barrels one, two, three,'' as the |ca.se may be, and the captain marks it on his memoraiulum-book. Then Itwo of the crew empty the tub into the packiug crib, and there the |ctew's part of it ends. Then at the packing-crib it is packed in barrels laud marked according to the grade. Then a half bushel of salt is put pnwith it, and the cooper takes it, puts in the head, and gives it a roll ]ou the wharf. The barrel rolls down the wharf to where it is bored by jtlie pickler. Q. That is, he makes a bung-hole ? — A. Y'es ; and then he puts a fun- blin and pickles it. Then he »llows it to stand awhile, and tills it up Bgain until it is full of pickle. Then he brings it up, sets it on end, and It is branded with the deputy inspector's name ami the grade of the tish. |t is then turned out ready for market. Q. Are the crew usually present and taking an interest in this ? — A. fes; they are right on hand until it is weighed oil', and then they don't are any more about it. Q. Now, do the owners and outfitters of vessels keep shops for the ble of clothing and such things ? — A. No ; there is very little if any ppt by the outfitters. It used to be so. Q. So these men who have clothes to purchase generally go to other- places!— A. Y'es. Q. If they have cash or credit they make their own bargains ? If they Nit the aid of the owner what do they do ? — A. They get an order on Mtovekeeper. U * .',. 'r'f ' ' I ft' ^'■c*:-' •if<' ■^^^. 2614 AWARD OF THE PI8IIKRY COMMISSION. Q. And the owner then be«omeH reHpoiiHibleT — A. Yea. i}. Tlien Hiter the voyH^e in up whtit clulhiug he has hml '\» chiir^riil on his privute ticuutint f — A. Yes. Q. Now, what doeN the owner get for the risk f lie takes tlie risk ni the life of the man and also of the eateh not amountiiiK to eiioii^h, What profit does lie ^ot for that f — A. lie jjwtM a pnittt owinj; to tli>' competition amonf; the clothesdealerct. They allow a certain iH'icitnt age to the owner of the vessel for if.>\'inu these orders. Q. IJow much is that? is it bused on the wholesale prices or as tin- bargain nuiy be made? — A. Jl is based principally on the wlioUvsali- prices. They sell to the oufiitter at the wholesale prices and charge tlir goods to the men at the retail prict^s at the store. Q. The man knows v. hat he will be charged on the outhtter's bonks !- A. Yes. Q. Now, would it be possible for those who have neither credit iioi cash to do atiy better than that ? — A. 1 think not. Q. 1 si'.ppose if they went without any credit or cash, or any one to become responsible in this way, they would hardly make a purchase ai all i — A. I think not. The risk is too great. As a general thiii^' tlie storekeeper would rather have the order of the owner. Q. Now, in case any of the crew thinks anything is going wroti;;. iiml does not get satisfaction, are there not plenty of lawyers ready to [,\k>' up their cases i — A. It is to be assumed there are. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. I did not uuderstand him to answer the question as to the outlit ter's protlt on the stores furnished on his credit? The seaman gets his bill, with the rate put on the account to show him what he buys at .'—A. Yea. Q. That ia what you call the retail rate. lie can go from place tu place ? — A. Y'es. Q. Now, having got his bill at the retail rate, it is given to him on flic understanding that before he gets the clothes the bill must be indorsed .'— A. He goes to the owner and says : " Here, I am going in your vemA and have no clothes. Give me an order on such and such a linn tu f;et a suit of clothes or oiled clothes." lie takes that order and goes iii), He knows what the clothes are wortb, and will not pay extravagant prices. Q. Now the question is what the outfitter gets as compensation for tlie risk ? — A. He gets a profit out of the manufacturer, or rather the whole- sale dealer. If he gives an order ou Carter, a manufacturer of oiled clothes. Carter will sell them at the wholesale prices and charge thoiu j ou the account at the retail prices to the man. Q. AVliat is the percentage 1 — A. I could uot form any accurate esti mate. Q. As nearly as you can say ? — A. Some will pay more than others.] I don't think the average is more than 8 per cent., perhaps 10. liy Mr. Dana : Q. What would the articles be that the men would buy at the ditlerl ent stores? — A. Clothiug. Tobacco they would get at the outt)tter's| store. Q. The outfitter has tobacco? — A. Yes. Q. Do they buy anything but clothing in this way? — A. I think not^ They only buy what they actually need to fit them out to go on boarj the vessel. AWARD OF THE FIUUEHY COMMISHION. 2Gir> By Sir Alexander Gait: (j. Ill uuse their fninilie8 require aasi.statiue, Th there any custom of xip* lilviiiK the families of the tlt^hermeii by the outtittertif — A. Yes; l)y lei- \n\ii tiu'iii have HupplieH from the store and Kivint; them cA8h. q. Is tiiat done upon half-pay orders, or anything of that sort ? — A. No; I never had an order from a man that went fur me. If his wife (ame do^vii I always let her have provisions. \\y Mr. J)ana: Ij, Do you think it is the custom to make advances either in cash or ^,^mIs*— A. Ves, if they run up an account to more than the voyage wiimuits, we check it. Q. At, what rate are those goods charged ? — A. I think the averago woiilil be 10 per cent. (}, Yoii mean 10 per cent, on what f — A. I refer to the provision sup- |,lkil to the families. I don't think they will average as much as that. Hy Sir Alexamler Gait : {}, Take, for instance, the case of a barrel of tlonr, or something of tliiit sort, what would the percentage be on that ? — A. Well, a barrel of iluiir, when 1 was in the business, was $8 or $10. Q. is the percentage you name on which the goods are furnished a jicrci'iitage over the retail i)ri(!es ? — A. No, they 'J lbs. mustard 4 .'>0 4 b. lbs. pept. sauce -0 Yoast cakes 2 0 liread preparation ti i 0 Liiiiip chimneys 4 0 mi Urn. bntter 147 00 ;il;i lbs. fresh meat :M :!0 Vegetables :{(» dO *J bbls. water 4ii OO l,42(i Hi I Lave all tlie charges for that vessel that year. Q. They live pretty well on board these vessels ? — A. Yes ; it is a will- |kDowii tact that they fare well on board the American schooinrs. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. This is what the 40 cents per day is founded upon ? — A. Yes. I jmay observe that the peas seem pretty high, but they used split peas, [iiostof thera. By Mr. Dana : Q. Now, is that a fair average cost for fitting out a vessel for that Itime ?— A. I think it is; because I know others have figured it up to 45 Icents. Q. Xow, how do you make out the 40 cents a dav ? You haven't |given us that.— A. Well, it is got by dividing $1,426.03, the total cost, l.v the number of men and the number of days. It is a fraction less [tliau 40 cents. Q. But there are some of those things that are not consumed. I sup- ose tlu'y are destroyed. Of course there is more or less waste — sucli, WMvi ■#f t 'H^#:' 2618 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. for instance, as cbimneys for lamps. — A. Well, they are breaking all the time. There would not be much of that left when they fi^ot liume from their voyage. By Sir Alexander Gait : (}. That is a cod-fishing voyage! — A. Cod and halibut. It would apply to the Grand Banks or the Western Banks. All classes of vessels average about the same. Q. Now, the trawl gear is put down on this broadside as $l,(iOO and a small fraction. Have you the items of that ? — A. I have. They are as follows : Vesstl 71 tons, cost $8,800. Fitted for trawling halibut. THAWL-GEAR. Twine So im b haskets .'.. 11411 22 buoys HO: 20 buckets oiKi 4t> tiles f) ■,< 1.48H pounds ground-lines 444 Ku 84t) (lounds gauging-liues 4lii T,' 2ti knives , 15 t>i 1 2 stones 7,"i .32 staffs nil ;{iiO pounds bnoy-liue t)4 -n 4 dozen brooms IMH 52 grosfe hooks Un) •>u 2:? jiounds lobster-twine '^ ii.'i 5 dories i:!ii im Iron and copper tacks 1 .*: 4 shovels H1I11 Anchors 40 m Oius and scoops 47 l:i i,u-,';i'.':, Any explanation in regard to this that may be required I can givf, Sujue of the terms used are technical. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. There is a term gauginglines. — A. That is the small line to which tile hooks are fastened. By Mr. Dana: Q. Now, you have here in this broadside the vessel's expense account, | $1,823.85. Do they call that an expense account 1 Is that the way they entitle it on the books in making up the account ? — A. No ; it is all put I in one account ; all the things for the vessel are put in one account. | These were separated for this special purpose. Q. Now, you take this expense account ; what period of time does it | cover? — A. Three hundred and two days. Q. Now, what are the items of the vessel's expense account ?— A. I They are as follows : vkssel's expense. Spunvarn J* J" Parcelling '£i'*>\ Leather H «l| Jib hanks 1 30| Nails 1*1 Tinware, &c T1I5()I 1 anchor lost "IS!*! Topmast (broken) li'»| Paint and painting ^^'''I Railway fee Ki||.'){er , Blacksmith Ciirpi'iittT s.iilmaker'.s repnirt Liiiiiber for ice-hou IiiMirant'o Coiumi.Hsi(iiis to skij litoD.sballiist Snivel ;,'iin TarriiiK ringing, A, 'i>. -Tib banks i • X. I know; but (}. Von put in [cesreraiepaintet Q. How many Q. They are ha <^ The insurani Q. They are ins . I believe it 1 I lislieiuieu and owi liwiiliar to tbems* iJou't insure in the llni'li for tliem. % Sir Alex Q. I understood jiw; rlie name of [Proctor. % Hon. Mr. Q- Js the sum j)u % Mr. Danfi Q- I>o you know !far previous. Id % Sir Alexa 'i*. This statemen Filled for the Ce f space we had a ^iike the abstract v\ j>y Mr. Dana |Q. Vou gave us y '• I es. ,} \M that inclu( y- \ou put them l^' ^ow, that is CO "Sl^i laid out on h "ttle more deprecia m the depreciatit Fl'i be required to [v- For instance, t E«ou al! the wav i 7 certain nuinbe AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2619 '23 <« Tit 50^ 9iiOO Riilwaytee $15 no Hidger 47 00 Biacksuiitb 60 00 CurpciittT 65 00 SailmaktT's repnirs 16:{ 00 Liiiiilior tor ice-liouse 4:{ 00 Iiisiiranc! 5:{'.t 00 Cimiiuisnioiis to skipper 41)5 00 iHiousbiilliist HO 00 Mnvel (run :J8 00 I;irmiK '•i«B'"K. '^'^ !■* ^^ {}. Jib banks are put in ; they are part of the original furnitnre ? — A, I know ; bat they break some, probably, and have to be repaired. (^t. Vou put in *' Marine Railway"? — A. VVell, all the vessels in Gloii- cesrer are painted on the Marine Railway. Q. How many have you iii town ? — A. Six. Q. They are hauled up there for repairs? — A. Yes. (]. The insurance is for that period of 302 days ? — A. Yes. Q. They are insured in a mutual lishing-offlce ? — A. Yes. j (). 1 believe it was explained that that mutual office was got up by lisbeiuieu and owners for their own benefit, and conducted on pnncipli s Iitiiiliiir to themselves that were thought to be most beneficial. They ilou't iiKsure in the Boston offices ? — A. No, not now ; the rates were too hi!,'li tor them. I By Sir Alexander Gait : I Q. I understood this was an actual case for a particular vessel ? — A* lYes; the name of the vessel is the Victor, l)elonging to Joseph O. IProt'tor. I By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : I Q. Is the sum put in for insurance the actual sum paid ? — A. Yes. I By Mr. Dana : I Q, Do you know how old a vessel she was? — A. She was built in the ■w })reviou8. I don't know what tinie ol' the year. I By Sir Alexander Gait: I Q. This statement was prepared for the Centennial ? — A. Yes; it was Brepaied for the Centennial, but we did not have room for it to go in ■lie space we had at the time at our disposal, and therefore we had to ■like the abstract which is contained in the printed broadside. I By Mr. Dana : IQ. You gave us your statement for the depreciiation of the vessel ? — M' Ves. IQ. Did that include repairs ? — A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. You put them into the depreciation ? — A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. Xow, that is considering the depreciation of the vessel to be the ■Douiit laid out on her from year to year for repairs. But there will be Hiittle more depreciation than that, would not there ? In point of tact, Boot the depreciation of the vessel a little larger than the amount that Hontd be required to repair her f — A. O, yes. HQ< For instance, the substantial part of the ship, the hull from the B^lsou all the way up, even if that does not require repairs, still if it of a certain number of years of age it will not sell as well asif new ? — f H sir. 2620 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Something lies in the fancy that a new vessel is worth more thau ^ »»,„ ..vnonuo an old one?— A. There would be that. ■ "1 ♦_? v Q. The next item here (on the broadside) is general charges, ice, bait, H n yon ,,"^1 salt, &c. These you have gwen us, haven't you ?— A. No; tliey are H totbeiituounr called miscellaneous charges. They are as follows : h < ul ■ By Mr. Miscellaneous charges. ^m n j„ j^g jj SOOtonsice *(i(io m H ation for tJie ; Bait — Xi4(Hi H reimirs? — A. ^ Strawforbait in un ■ the whole year 5a pair of uippHrs '>1 :^i ^| ^ ,, J^'*^ Towage....... oou, ■ Q' i^O^V muc 75 ibH. powder 1- m. ■ make lip the a Medicine •,>.■; (ki ■ would be the ai Oil clothes, one man l.'i ihi ^m Id hhds. salt 'M{»\ ■ JJy Mv. 1 MX,.-. ■ Q-Tli^uitis ■ couDivtion with Q. Can you give us the average life of a fishing-vessel ? I don't mean H tlie plant, the wl how long she will remain a hulk, but take her from the time .she is built H sets Lis couipen until she ceases to be tit to go. — A. I could not, right ott, but 1 could H piovisioiis, tittir figure it out very shortly. H Q- Well, thesi Q. Perhaps ycj don't care to give us a guess? — A. No. H aster, are they By Sir Alexander Gait : I of it. '^a**^^ J,'!*'' Q. I see you are leaving this item respecting the cost. 1 untlcrs ood H Q. in what sei him to say he would j^ive us the result of the year's work of the vessel, H on the wharf an* By Mr. Dana : I '^'■' to everything Q. It is on that broadsheet, is it ?— A. There is a recapitulation there ■ , ^i**^y "'' on the broadside. (Keads.) ■ ^.^ ^!l' ''** "s'Jt'rji ^ V- >ow, would RKCArnxT-ATKix. H *''' ^ '"'HI to uiak Trawl-sear .^|,,|0:i i5 ■ '"'."^•Y"«»'chaiit, h Vessel's expense account 1,*,':! -'\ ^m S'^^ his personal Provisions, &c i,4'.'ii(i:! H cveiseeiug it f J General charges MXi " ^M 1 thiuk not Total cost of running :.,40-i;3B r ^^' -^''^^ there an T> nr T^ • ■ I presume? >o. ByMr.Davies: ■. <^ Take the ca^ Q. What was the owner's share?— A. $5,798.05, and the expenses on ■ I'lit merely invest that were $5,408.03. Then she made about $390. H Is there such a th By Mr. Dana : ■ ^J^^J\ "O'dd not Q. Now, you say that leaves a small profit to the owners f— A. Ves,Hj^,Q|,j. 'iJ^'" mone.v Q. Now, in making up the charges against the vessel, in the owuer'sH q ^yj] 1 • . *^ account, he credits himself with that $5,000, which is his share of tlieHjD^ j^^ that fl^'^r^'" catch after deducting certain expenses. You charge them enoiighM q \\'j,oj. j ^ ^^' against the ship to leave a small balance. You charge agJiinst it, ofHffyj.'|,jj, ' "**you course, the provision account, and the account for repairs ? — A. YesjitH q Do* v^'^^'^th"^ is all charged in one account without any division. H^eta fair h r* Q. Then, charging the repairs and charging the provision account^ 'q' WouI i h *'^'' you leave that result, do you ? — A. Yes, sir. H (» p,.rj,„ f'^ ^ Q. Then, how do you include a fair compensation to the owner f'^wletshispn >*'i^*'^ the use of his wharf and buildings and his own time?— A. '^^l^''^ ''Wbiitsupnoo JJ '** " profit he gets out of the fish after they are landed. ■'""for his Zh ^'ow, wonhl it be possible, do you think, from your long experience, for a man to make a living if he simply invested his cai)ital, as a S(U't of hiiicy merchant, looking in at times to see how things went, if he didn't give bis personal attention to the business, and do a fair day's work overseeing it ? — A. You mean whether he wotdd get a living out of it .' I think not. Q. Are there any such cases down there ? — A. Y'ou mean vessel-owners, I iiresume ? ^o. il Take tbe case of persons who don't themselves look after the work, kt merely invest capital in the flshiiig and have others looking after it. Is there such a thing as tbat known in Gloucester ? — A. No. Q. It would not be an investnient of any account if you undertook to I invest your money and leave others to take care of it? — A. I don't know I about tiiat. I don't know any instance where it is done. Q. What is your opinion ? Have jou a clear opinion ? — A. My opin- [iouis that they would not make a great deal on their investments. Q. What do you mean ? — A. Well, I mean that they would not get a [very large percentage. ^. Do you think they would get anything ? — A. I think they would |?et a fair interest on it. Q. Would they get more than that ? — A. No, I don't think they would. vMfi ■■miDr; 'f aulDC^^^ i ■ tfr* ■-■■ ■■•!■ P (1- *i int^ ^•'Stlm^ "^ '»'■'■■ 2624 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■s f and investments are elsewhere? — A. Yes, and who have suuiiuer resi dences in Gloucester. Q. That is because of the salubrity of the climate, and the oceaD scenery f There has been a great deal of that ? — A. Yes. Q. Parts of Gloucester have been built up entirely ! — A. Yes. Q. Manchester and Maijnolia ? — A. Yes. Q. Then down towards Eastern Point Light ? — A. Well, there are four or live summer boarding-houses there. Q. Then you have summer boarding-houses, and the hotels iu siiniuitt depend to a large extent on summer boarders if — A. Yes. Q. Now, has all that led to an increase iu the value of lands !— A. Yes. Q. The soil is not very fertile, I believe? — A. No. It is rocky. Q. And, as I recollect, there is not a great quantity of it ? — A. Xo. Q. Its value, independent of what is given to it as a place of suumier residence, would be small? — A. I think it would. (}. Now, do you recollect anything else besides what you have men tioned — granite, outside business, and summer residence ? Are thtri' oases of men in Boston, whose business is in Boston, and whose real bona-fide home is there, bnt who yet reside in Gloucester long ciiougli to psiy taxes there ? — A. Yes. Q. In some cases, men of very large fortune? — A. Yes. (}. A man died there the other day worth a couple of millions or so. He was a manufacturer and general merchant living in Boston !- A. Yes. Q. One question about insurance. Does that company wjiieli uii speak of insure to the full value of the vessel ? — A. They do not. Q. Do yon recollect to what proportion ? — A. Yes. ii,. Do you recollect whether it is three fourths or seven-eijjhths, .'- A. I won't say positively. (ij. But there is a portion that the owner has to pay himself? — A. Ye?. (^ Do they pay every loss, or only over a certain percentage of tht value ? — A. Only over a certain percentage. I think it is 12 per cent. Q. At all events, whatever the percentage, there may be a series of losses that the owner has to bear himself, tiiat do not amount to eiiou^b to make a partial loss? — A. No. If they are run into, for instance, and damaged by one another, they do not get anything, unless it is ovei aj certain percentage of the value. Q. Have you a copy of the lishing articles of Gloucester tishoniieu A. No. Q. Can you state from your own knowledge of their provisions, oi how they have ever been construed, as to the legal right of the menti take their own tish, subject to the incumbrances. Do you knowboi that is? — A. No. The cases of fishermen wanting to take his own lisl are very rare indeed. They are always satisfied with the settlemti they make with the owners. Q. We should like to have the book which contains the hy-laws the insurance company ; also, a copy of the cod-fishing articles ai mackerel fislfing articles. That would be interesting. — A. 1 will sei them. Q. There was a man named Joseph Campbell, of Souris, Prince B ward Island, examined as a witness. He was asked : " In 18G0 vhi vessel did you go in?" and answered, " the Daniel McPhee." Hew asked : " Where did you go ?" and answered, " We went to the bay. lauded and took dories and went up to Seven Islands again. There got 80 barrels at the same place as before. From that we went furti up to a place called Boubou, and got twenty or thirty barrels there cl( • .iiaf t,„„Mli,lv .'■^\Msf|,at,.arIv?. «lw «e (irsnih),,;,! ' . linn wonlii bo : •tlMi. iuoro(i.'l-J '.'. UllLTclid vo.i ffltewanlof tho i If'iedii.r, cJoNeiu. ,;■ " "t 'iKl you ,io ,;j^Did you make „„, '«= to MJ aad §14 ^^ -A. The 11. 1 ffnied October '>« tj/H-el^Campb, y Henas on boJ 'P sold for .'97. „„, (1 nil . ' > "HI •''■ I'J*-'" the same "".itdul youcatcl \^'o^\, What can ^ajnol 3rcPhee, it '? packed o "•carrels of mackei AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2625 to tho shore. We then crossed to the southern side to Griflin's Cove and iiicki'd up about twenty or thirty barrels there. We then crossed to (juspo, then to Bay Chaleurs, picking up more or less every day. Wo were linoHshing then. We gave up tiio boats after leaving Seven Is- lands. We went to North Cape, Prince Kdward Island, to tinish our trip. We made only one trip and went home." Then he was asked : " What was your catch T' and answere*l, " We got 2S(> barrels; that was in LSGO." Then lie was asked : " Did you take them outside the limits J" and an- swered,'• We did some." Then to the question, " What proportion?" lie answered, " Sixty or seventy barrels at the outside." Now you have been requested to examine into this matter. Have you any personal liiiowledgo of the Daniel McPhee ? — A. I owned a portion of her in 1800. Q. You may state from your own knowledge what was the truth of that matter ? — A. To the best of my knowledge Joseph Campbell was not in tlie schooner. She landed 17 barrels of mackerel, and was gone about three months, (^t. That you state of your own knowledge ? — A. Yes. {}, You mean that was the whole trip .' — A. That is what she packed init- io). Ilave you looked to see whether this man was in the vessel ? — A. I have. (). There was no such man .' — A. No, sir; I can give you the names t' the crew if you want them. Q. No matter. Now, the same witness is asked, and answers as fol- liiws : 'I. Ill t"ri|. wliiit (lid yoii do .' — A. I wiis in tbe li. H. Oatcos, Cii|>tiiiu Xascii. 1). Wiiut tiiuo did yon coiiiti down .' — A. Tiit) l.")t,li of .Inly. 1,1. Was that caily f — A. It is not early. It is a fair time. Wo did not lind tlicni liito 'Aiii-re \vt' lirst lihlifd, and wn went U)i to ]5ay Cbaleurs. Wo j;ot ahont l;ii) liarrels ttinre— nbont 'M liairels iiisido and the rest ont8i What were fish bringing then? — A. They were low. In 13f)l mackerel brought puiu ^Vi to si;J and §14 a barrel. That was the yei-r tbo war broke out. Q. Now, can j'ou tell us about the II. H. Oakes and this man Camp- lell!— A, The li. II. Oakes in 1861 fitted about the last of June and jftiirned October 20. The vessel packed out 225.^ barrels of mackerel, rom which Campbell's share was $39.01. ]Q. He was on board that time? — A. \'es; the number ones of this lip sold for 87; number twos, 85 j',. ; and the number threes at $3. K>. Then the same witness is asked, and answers as follows : I'i Didyou fish any more that year? — A. I wont home and fished on the home shore; ]»tis the American siiore, in the fall of ISiVi, in the Daniel Md'hoe. ' What did you catch there ? — A. We caught 40 barrels. |Q. Xow, what can you tell us about fishing on the American shore in i Daniel .^IcPhee, in the fall of 1802 *— A. In 1802 the schooner Dan- |Mcl'hee piicked out on the fall trip, from October i to November 8, ') barrels of mackerel. 1C5 F i'^t li^li; ^?^t^ f'fb-" . 1 ■ • i'-^ ■>i- >s ■. ■■■' mMi^:^.j'\''*'. vpM m ^^'^ - iJr\: tl 2626 ▲WARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. What do you make of his statetneut that it was 40 barrel.s f—A, I uan't make anything out of it. Q. Now, there is a man, Ronald McDonald. On page 30G of the te:*. timony he is asked and answers as follows : Q. Have you flshed in Ainericau vesaeU ? — A. Yuh. Q. Huw many yeara f — A. About seven HumnierH. Q. When did you tint go in an Auieriuau 8clio<»ner 1 — A. About 1859 or Isii). Q. What ia tbo uauio of tbe lirat vuHsel ?— A. Duuiel Mcl'bee, Gloucuiitur, Daui«l Mcl'bee, captain. Q. Where did you fish F — A. We began to lish along the ialand toward Xortb Cipc Prince Edward Ittland. Q. And you tiabed along at all tbe usual places ? — A. Yes. ' Q. What did you catch tliat year? — A. About 200 barrels for tbe seattun. Q. How far from shore did you usually fish f— A. We tisbed mostly all over the \m. Tbe priucipnl part of tlie tisb we got on tbe Canada shore and Capo Hretoii sliore an'ii along the island. Wo caught a few on Uitnl< Bradley, and some up uortbwurd, alimit Margaree. Tbe principal part wc got ou tbe Cape Breton shore. NoWj can you tell us anything about this man iu the Daniel McPlne, either m 1859 or 1800 ? — A. In 1850 she was on the stocks. Q. Did she afterwards go ott' under command of Daniel McPhee?-i A. Yes. Q. To the gulf?— A. Yes. Q. With what result? — A. The first trip was 17 barrels of muckeieU of which Ronald McDonald's share was 35 cents. Ou the seeoiul trip she got 122A, and Ronald McDonald was not one of the crew. Q. Now, there is a deponent named William H. Molloy, whose affi davit was put in on belialf of the British Government. He says : The result of my last year's operations is as follows : Total catch thirty-seven hundred quintals for tbe season, thrt;e Banking triiis; raliiel thort'of about seventeen thousand dollars; expenses of wages, crew's share of vuyani'.l outfit and provisions was about twelve thousand dollars, leaving a clear protit tuibrl owner of about live thousand dollars. Tbe owner derives a considerable protit also fml the diil'erence between the prices be allows the crews for their share of Hsh, aud wliiil it is worth to him in tbe market, by which he would gain ou the quantity alcove stai«l| about eigbteeu hundred dollars. What have you to say to that? — A. I think that Captain Mulloydotsj not seem to understand his business. In the first place he exaggeiateji the number of vessels that are on the Banks from Gloucester, aud tbenl he goes on and gives an account of the profits. Take his owustatej ment. I have made up a little memorandum. The expenses of tbe \m sel, he says, are $12,000; shrinkage and cost of curing 3,700 quiutay at $1 per quintal, is $3,700, which gives $15,700. It sella 30,132 (luinj tals, dry, for $4.80 per quintal, equal to $14,462.40, leaving a loss of $1,237.60 instead of $6,800 gain. Q. Then you say his own calculation does not produce tbe results .'- A. Not what he states. Q. In point of fact, has be made his statement correctly ?— A. should say that 3,700 quintals of codfish caught by a vessel one seasoij was a very large catch, and to make three trips, and make a full averj age each trip, is a remarkably successful year's voyage. Q. Then he speaks of the difference between the price allowed tlij crew for their share of the fish, and what it is worth in the market, m says the owner would gain on the quantity above stated about SIM If he takes the value of the fish in the same state iu which they arj landed they are worth no more to the owners than the crew ?— A. ^o.J Q. Their superior value is the result of labor aud skill afterward poj upon them ? — A. Yes. Fish are never bought in Gloucester, to wj knowledge, by the quintal from a vessel. The price of fish last yeaj^ was $2.75 per 100 pounds from the vessel, green. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2627 By Mr. Wbiteway: Q, Is not that a quintal 7 — A. 114 pounds are a ■ ^- V 2628 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. for tUo year preceiliii];; and following ? — A. In 1801 he testifiod ho wm on the U. U. OakeH, another of my vcsHelH. Q. I ask you to give mo the return of the vessel in 1801 ?— A. I don - understand what you mean hy return. Q. A statement of the number of barrels of mackerel landed .'—A, I can give you the number of barrels of mackerel landed. Q. And the names of the crew in her ? — A. Yes. Q. I observe you have your book with you f — A. Yes; my tiipbouk for 1801 and 1802, not for 18bell. Why did you l)riiig the book for the next yeai You were not asked to verity or dispute any statement for the iii.\:| year? — A. No. Q. Why did you omit to bring the book for the year respectiii;,' wiiidij you were asked to contradict Campbell's statement '. — A. 1 broiifjlittk trip-book which shows the catches of mackerel. t^. You say you lost tho previous trip-book ? — A. lie was in aiiotlun vessel of mine afterward. (i>. Jf you have lost that trip-book, how are you'ablo to tell oxact'jj what catch he made ? — A. It is entered in my .jouriml. Q. Is each man's account transferred to the Journal .'—A. Yes. Q. So that the journal would have done Just as well as the tiiitj book ? — A. It is a heavier and more bulky book. Q. But it would have all tho information ? — A. I presume it would. could have brought it, but I had Mr. Steele's books, >vhich are verjj heavy. Q. I notice that Capt. Joseph Campbell, of Souris, who w.as examine very nearly the beginning of this Commission, and Ronald McDoiialij who was called toward the close, there being, I think, four or live week between the times at which they were called, testiliod on oath tlie factl respecting that vessel, and with the exception of the number ofbairej spoken to by them, on which there is only a small difference, tlieyagre[ with regard to the trij), the places where the mackerel were takou,aii everything? — A. Yes. Q. I fancy there must be some explanation of tho matter, ami tliej must bo a mistake about the year ? — A. Here is the record for ISDj The vessel was not built in 1859. Q. Campbell said : We went to the bay. We landed and took doricH and went up to the Seven Islaoi again. There Ave got 80 barrels at the same plate as before. From that we ffi) you know "1 "■ I saw him. ^^y Hr. Davil ,,'•'• ^)oyou knowt w f'i|» in the fal }nH hay-tishingl '.'. Do your ves.sef ^' '"50iiiotimes shorl <^ If the vessel il |weut with yours ?| 'I'l'tlavscn theshi '^ ile says about fo trips ?-A. Id( • Jf Captain Mc V- »Vhat is your, 'fse two men, corrJ ^''t'lit times? A J ^ffgard to their cij AWARD OF THE FI8HEUY COMMI88ION. 2629 )|iore. \\*) (!>*'■■ I'i'OHNt'tl to tlin Hontlinrn Nitln, to (irilllirH Cove, niiit pit k<>il ii|) alioiit twenty "I tliii'ly Imni'lH tlitMc. \Vr then (^roHHcil (d (Jhhix^, ilimi to May (Mialt'iirs, i»ick- u|i mon' or 1»>hh every tliiy. We wore linelishiiig tlieii, W<< Kiive up tlie i)<>;iU every tliiv. Is. We Hindu uiily oiiu trip, uiiil weat luiiiiu. aii'r li'ikviii^ Seven Inlands. We wont to Nortli L'lipe, T'riuco IMwunl Island, to liniith rirtrip. (}. Wliat liffht will tlio book for ISOI throw on tltc matter ?— A. iiiin'ly n'woA tlio iiamt's of the crew ami what they caught. The ves-s A. It 8.sel WIS not built ill 18."»1). (J. One of the witnesses stated that lisherinen sometimes enter theiii- .,I\eM uinh'r . Ilow are you able to state at this distance of time which refers to 1m\ aiitl which to shore trips, with the tri[>s not divided ? — A. JJy the lime (»f year. {). The shore trii)s will be after the vessels return in October ? — A. Yt's. (^». It seems by this that the vessel took 80 barrels on the shore. That is just what Campbell said : (,i. Only 10 barrels. That was in IrtOl that yon j^ot ^0 barrels there in the fall trip, mil in Ifiii'J you yot 40 barrels f— A. Yes. That is right, within six barrels ? — x\. In the fall of ISGl was he in tlie Daniel 3Icl'hee '. Is his name among the crew for that shore-trip ? (}, His name does not appear hero (in the book). If ho was there he must bave been under another name ? — A. I don't think he was in her iutbe fall trip. Does he say he was with Captain Hunter ? Mr. Davies. The preceding questions were the following : (;. Dill you fish any more that year ?t-A. I went home and fished on the lioine-shore, |l!]ntis, the American shoro, in the fall of iMJ'i, in the IJuniol Mel'hee. i;. What did you catch there ? — A. We cauj^ht 40 barrels. By Sir Alexander (lalt : Q. J)o you know Campbell ? — A. I don't remember him ; I would know if I saw him. By Mr. Davies : <,'. Do you know whether the Daniel McPhee made more than one klioie trip in the fall of 1802 J— A. In 1802, from July 27 to October 4, p'was bay-fishing; from October 4 to November 8, shore- fishing. I). Do your vessels, lishing on your shore, nnike short or long trips ? — .Soniotimes short and sometimes long. I Q. If the vessel made two trips, his statement may be perfectly cou- listeut with yours ? — A. She was only employed in 18G2 one month and four (lays on the shore. Q. He says about three weeks. Is it not possible she may have made |wo trips ?— A. I don't know. Q. Is Captain McPhoe at Gloucester ? — A. He is dead. ^Q. Wliat is your impression with regard to the statements made by petw'o men, corroborating each other substantially, and made at dif- [rcut times ? — A. My impression is that they are mistaken altogether • regard to their catch and where they fished. ':r;^:j: mm: Mr'f:>:. p>'* : V" '•-... :-j -^ -*** ■SSS 1.':* ii.i,..tt« - ■ - ■• - ■Kit-,:-- 'fi ^ ' . .. ' W mm* 2630 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. W.m'M^^' $i^ Q. How would you know wliere they fished ; you were uot there '- A. No. Q. Therefore you canuot know personally ; why, then, do you make that statement? — A. Because, in the fall of the year, on the secoini trip, they never got it at Seven Islands with dories, and she landed her dories when she came home on her first trip. Q. Campbell says they commenced the trip at Seven Islands ; arc yon prepared to contradict that? — A. I am. Q. In what way ? — A. Because she returned home having canglitonlv 17 barrels. Q. I am speaking regarding the places where the fish were caught.- A. She left her dories at Gloucester after the first voyage. They could not get 280 barrels with her dories when" they were on my wharf. Q. I am asking you with reference to places where they fished. You say you can contradict Campbell's statement ; how do you contradict it ? — A. I cannot contradict it from personal knowledge. Q. How can you state you believe it to be incorrect ? — A. From evi dence I know is in existence in regard to it. Q. To what evidence do you refer ? — A. I refer to a deposition in tlie hands of counsel. Q. You are speaking in regard to some deposition in the hands of counsel, and you base your evidence on that ? — A. I do not. Q. That is the aflfldavit of another man ; put that aside at present, From your own knowledge, can you pretend to say that Campbell's state ment is not correct as to where he fished ? — A. I cannot believe it is true I when a man says he fished in a certain place, when he says they cauglit one barrel here and eighty barrels there, and I know the vessel oiilvl liacked out 17 barrels; I cannot believe the statement to be true. Q. It is unfortunate that the trip-book for 1860 is not here .'—A, regret it more than anything else. My little girl asked me last year fori a book, and I cut the leaves out, never supposing it would be wantedf Q. Can you tell me of any other vessel in 1800 which returned fioiuj a trip in Bay Chaleurs with 17 barrels i)r anything like that?— A. Tliej schooner Annah, another of my vessels, returned from the bay MithJlj barrels. Q. What size was she ? — A. She was about 50 tons. Q. What time of the year did she go into the bay ? — A. She went otlil July, and returned 12th September. (i. What was the highest catch made by any of your vessels tlialj year ?— A. 33^ barrels. Q. AVill you explain to the Commission what this statoniput purportj to be ? — A. A table showing the voyages of my vessels during W 1861, and 1802. Witness hanued in the followina' statement: •an •BIS,1 •tl|)U CM •r B Zi ZM i " r. = " r- ^ T Mjiitis s [ass-a f ? 'a! :■ ■' •aii[»! . s ■J — -if _ •eiaxiD T _. •spoBi o " M ^. ^ (aillBK S.M9.I,')) 'llaiB3 JO Oll[Bji •[■1SS,1A JO OIIIB^ •jBa^^ 3 il B AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2631 h? * U tZ s s nftftSi* 29 .00 _ *^ t. " c o . „ e 1- o ■^ c *; •" .i "^ ■^— a- arf i a © ^f * -H — o -» i-< CI 1-t 15 •- te 10 to m m _»• •^ _■ vN ^^ ;; cT *: o *a — > '?. ^2 = 1^51 *< c/5 "^ "^ O T-5 P 4) O Si > »-: 1' s i-T CO au 10 I f, o n 0 n i K 1 ircstl-'-^.a-?^ " ^ : ~ O _, el .- . 1-5 f^ >-5 1-5 ^ 1. '*i - « = si ,— . ■ — • Z- — S C.S d.-~ - cS-r ts-r - = .£-= = ?:-S- W- tlT. tl ~ := ~ £ "S ti T ■■=■:•■= is -^ = •= •r n-r «^ c-i C ir o •- s •- o r: tt- t - tiS ttx u I- c t. _ u 'jnss.iA JO oniB;^ Bpuiiu •snoi i '* I ^ IH ••J«aA I I I i — Tl C jf 'i I 00 au s $ h 'a o o a e 5 5 o s O H ■J. -Jl I <^ O A ^ !ir.^2TM»'i3' i-jf^ilii^i ^M-^'V .1 .^ »^- r iP^Sr ='^^:" 2632 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION, ^T 'a a o o to ■XI l-H '2 5 QO O 3D 1 OtJ i.^ 1 3 ? . X c • t£ — -> c — >; 0$ B "L* .a »- • a = .5 i: S - 1 fe 2 1 1 n 9 « :- 2 X 5 1 ^^f^ « 5- = £'« .0. ^^ X o S ^ §S X 1* is 'i^ ^ « > ""j Ch ' t- > t? _ J-^ 9? -?• -r ; S2 ; : ; 1 CI fit X 1 •K|l!q.Ci!ilo( anM[K j ■V ii ; ii : : ! CI >, H.IOSBJA ,(o ipifja J s l~. • ,— 1 "" 1 . . 1 1 1' cc ; • ^ . • 1 * 1 cf s "~i* ; ^ • r: ; :?;*!£■?. J ^ ^ ?? 00 i •BIIl'l l'' \t) C: o . . •»• -r rt X C t- CI I131B0 jo' ,p,n!HK 1 -^ : ^ : = : jgi?-''?? ; ? ?:'.t s H.IOSHJA JO h«9aX3 <& „•-- • I "" r: -■».- c 'S- * e- CC r: o CI c -^ * CI T 1— i- •JBa.C0lIJ.lO)Klliq s r JTi CI i*. ■— — X r^ »- ■w ?^ ■:> 7» c* 1* T o X ■J 1 "T S.10SS0AJIHIlllOCll\' c» a (7 (fi £ c> r: i^ rt c - 00 4- .€ r-' C rrf '- - :c CI CI Tf CI SI *- 'tf ,^ -r c Ci — ^r — ^— — '" c. (- — -r MBOA' o c r- — ■^r - rt -r o ^ O i*; O i-'l o CO ^ 1; w T — • r; o ^^ ,^ oqi ,ioj sj!|iD.i,) g ?: h« f-H ,":( ■^ t' '-' -r IC i-C 1 L.C H j s- l,)8S0AJ0^iIll01IIV n h" n i-T cfcrci ct'crcf «, ■ 2R' ^v> CI CO c . « OD ' '■■'*' •I1.1lHD 910l|Al ^ 1 8 l.)SSOAOIHl)Ali:(l)X «- f-T : : : : i i i ; '» .- ^ " \r. {-■ — _ • -T « . C. 1 — 'x ; o (- aj jr^K .*- \ ^ 1- "(f ■ipj\w c» c. o :Si :i : ■ H X cr 9aoiis ouiUA imoj. 5iii w "^. ._•_- . „■ , IT. r* • • -r ■ 'M -»• ir CI ti i-T ~"P III ■r. . . « . 1- rr o o I CI ^r •il.inij C. TJ 1 ' -f 1 c; -ti r C. X •^ 1- 1" »-< * ■ ^ 1 1*; Ti I- i' ri i- (- JIli;) .lll[BA IBJOX o> = X 3 ■^ -5'' : :■'" i"'""' " Cl>. '-* CI ■aJuiiH si B ^ •v>- o • 'J' l* ~ U ■ »!^ \ ci r* T- nuouaniy sim § "s 1- . „ ^ SI rt . ;i- lf3 S^,"? .. •jBq.i.iqiiiiiii iBlox ' ii' 2 ^ X ~ "r^'xtlTr "l?'^ - -; E J •.II" f >«[■'■! ^ ■X) rt *- e; . -^ I-- 1*; It c 1.1 H rt -^ yD ■^ r: . •^s !-■:>- X (^ ir< o -.iBq .i.iqu'ii" 1B)"X — CI ct r^ . 51 SI 71 rs CT L-^l- ■^ ".Ic r. ."^ ».■: ^ c ■ ■•III ■ * ' 1 1 ejuiis B,ian8.iji^ I ; J ; 'T& ;:;::: I : CI |5 ' ro : ; ■aii[«A. S ;!.^ : '. c ^ * ) 1 1 I I , 1 1 ^* . r-f-; ■ ! -r T- .v.! • > 00 -« -#■ f ■eisj.ma _l p :'•::■• ' CI : •BIHIBII ^ 7V • — t^ ^ > ^ ; 1 1 ; 1 1 ; a.-J c * I I 1 1 [ 1 ' C J \ Thinl tri mackerelii 1< 5< 5 7 6 . C ■*-' 'x • ■ < I t 1 ^ * "J t ' .fcj — r ^J (-•"*J 7f ■ ^ i** ! J i: c* •J ■"c ■Jl ; ; ; 1 . I . o ^ I " ■*" ■^ . "^ . . JT rs T " o i- rt — •- • r- CI X _^ " /, C" X CI S T. = ?: -^ ' 1- ■v*> £ t— 'r •O.HMIN K,[.1889A 1 * " ft X i- CI "T *. rc • ^ X i. X X X' X X If |"S •auajt ~l 1 1 s i i : ; ■ 1 • -li^ • • - :r. r .2 fi w .' 1-5 I ' —* -^ *a 1 n .1 'S (5 7! c 5 : ; « ; ; ; 8 1 u 0 d e 3 -?j C :' c U d c ^ C 0 pj M 1 h <». t^ ca u C3 u ^ ,B JZ ^ .= J! ^ d^. ^. eg * j^ if. •A 1 Q. Wiien w (I AVIiat V loiis, I til ink. Q. Von i)rej (,». I'rom yoi (,>. AVill .voii jieared .' — A. 5 ;!S.), 57. Tliev <.». Will J on •I'l The catch oihers ;'— A. Tl ^». Hilt tlie SI the ;i(i()-biirrel ( all of til em, Q. I a.sked yt ilid read tliein"; Vfs; those \ver< (,>. Don't yoii wljjcii would be to 17 barrels Iwu l)f'irH name does >(•! when 17 barr tlie vessel in the Q. Could he 1 ilic Siilf and tool iiitiie ILst ofthe :i]'pear in the list So that lira ear to have been taken on your shore ; the .'lOO-barrel catches you have read were taken in the bay.' — A. Not allofthem. (). I asked you to read those which were caught on your shores; you ilidiviul them; were not the 30()l)arrcl catches taken iu the bay .' — A. Yts; those were caught iu the gulf. (^». Don't you think it is more probable that, as your trip-book is lost, wh'wh would be conclusive evidence on that point, you are mistaken as ti) 17 barrels having been caught in the gidf on that trip, because (Janip- iicirs uiime does lujt ai>pear on the list of the men who were in the ves- sel wlicii 17 barrels wei'e taken ? — A. No; I am positive he was not in the vessel in the gulf that trip. (^). t'ould he have deliberately coined the statement that he was iu tlie gulf and took that number of barrels ! His name does not appear ill tlie list of the crew when the 17 barrels were taken .' — A. It does not appear in the list. Q. You explained toward the close of your examiiuition the right of fislierinen to take their fish and sell them elsewhere; when a vessel re- turns to Gloucester, does not the merchant, when the lish are landed, pack them ? — A. Yes. (}. That is a matter with which the lishermen, as fishermen, have iiutliiiig to do '/ — A. Nothing to do with packing out. (^ Therefore, if he were allowed to take his fish, he would have to pay tbe merchant the packing charges '. — A. Y'es. (}, They would amount to $2 a barrel ? — A. That was the cost iu cer- tain years; it is now 551.7"). (,>. So that practically it is never done ? — A. No. (I It is also well understood that the merchant will have a lien ou ilietish caught for any advanci^s made the fishermen .' — A. Yes. (i'. The pra(!tical working of the system is that the fisherman does not take his fish elsewhere ? — A. 1 don't kuow of anv case where thev aid. <^ One of the witnesses from Gloucester stated here that it was the lc:i>toiii for the ship-unu'chants to agree auiong tlu^mselves as to the price tjiiy will allow the fishermen for the fish wheu they pack out. Is |tiiat concft? — A. Not to my knowledge. ^}. How do the merchants arrange .' Does oiu; ])ay SlO, another ^fll, I Hid another ^13, and are different i)rices paid to fishermen for their lish jilt the same port ?— 'A. For mackerel .' Q, Yes. — A. No ; because trips are hardly ever sold at the same prices lliuvedays running. •v'. I am speaking with regard to the price the merchant allows the ^liernieii ; whether the merchants agree among themselves to allow so luiidi !_A. The crew get the price at which the whole trip is sold. liill 'W '■''•itm* m^' m :e: '-m mm ■%yif!i 2634 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. mt'>j» Q. But the whole trip of mackerel may be held over for a year, salt's depending on the market? — A. The crew would hold over with him. (}. Do you mean to say that, if a crew came in in October, they would not bo paid when the packinjr out took place ? — A. No. Q. They might hold over till next spring ? — A. If there is not a inar ket for the fish the fish cannot be sold, so the crew cannot be settled with, and the cargo remains on the wharf till it is sold. Q. Don't they agree on a price ? Does not the merchant buy tlie tisli from the men ? — A. Sometimes they will settle in that way, and the merchant will take them at a price. Q. Did you ever know a case where a cargo har remained on a wharf all winter waiting for a rise in price ? — A. I do ; I had several vessels in 1800, the trips of which I kept over. Q. And did not pay the men ? — A. Not all of them ; some of them kept their fish in store, and I did not settle with them. Q. How many of them did so ? — A. I could not tell. Q. Is it the general and invariable rule ? — A. Tliat was an exceptioiiiil year. The usual rule is to settle the trips as soon as possii)le afcer they arrive. Q. When they do settle, how do they arrive at the price ; do the merchants agree on a price ? — A. Nothing of the kind. Q. It is So with regard to codfish ; it has been so testified here— that the merchants agree on a certain price they will allow their iisliermeii for green flsh ? — A. Yes. Q. That is the rule with regard to codfish ? — A. I cannot say it is the rule. They may do it ; I don't know. I notice in Mr. Steele's book va- riations in price. Q. I know they pay different prices in different years. Suppose sn vessels arrived to day in Gloucester and packed out and paid tlio men. and the vessels were owned by eight or nine ditterent persons, would the men be paid different prices ? — A. They would be ; that, is if the S|) trips sold for dilferent prices. If all arrived on one day, they would he all settled with at the jirice of mackerel that day. Q. Suppose the mackerel were not sold that day '. — A. He settles at the market-price. Q. At a sum they agree ui)on ? — A. Yes, Tliere is always a iiiiirkei price for mackerel, well understood. Q. There is a market-price well understood at which the inerchaiil pays the crews? — A. You misunderstand it. Let me explain it. In Gloucester there is great competition for trips of mackerel, and four or live buyers come down as soon as a trip is in, after the trip of niuckerel. They will bid for the trip, and the one that bids highest takes it at that 1 ])rice. That is the usual way of selling mackerel at Gloucester. If the I litter and owner wants the mackerel himself to send to his customers, he says he will take them himself at the highest bid. Q. Is it ottered at auction ? — A. It is ottered among the buyers. Sometimes there is great competition among them. Q. Take such a firm as George Steele. When one of their vessels i comes in, would they sell thelftsh to the buyers ? — A. Yes. Q. Does he not pack himself? — A. Yes, he always packs. ii. He would not sell the fish until they were |)acked ? — A. No. Souk- times he sells them as soon as they arrive. He says, " I will sell thisi trip for so much after they are packed out." Q. What is his practice ; is it to sell to the buyers, or to pack it. piirj chase it, .and sell it himself? — A. To sell it to the buyers. Q. There is a class of men known specially as buyers? — A. Yes. Q. Is not 3rr fish-bnyer. Q. Dues he g does. Q. Upon the would not be lis whether yon kn to be 12 i)er cen Q. I want to 1 deuce as your st that I believe it Q. Does it dif I'ereut. Q. Do you km the percentage- be liable?— A. I Q. I understai that point ? — A. Idou't understai Q. Do you kno pay— is it 5 per c Q. In answer i statement— that t a very high rate ( Q. What intere ;i vessel would bri Q. TLat applies Q. Not specially vessels, Q- With regan ivould be the rate A. I don't know. Q. For you kno J»o yoii know or n Ishing-vessels ?— . Q- in point of f , 'i*. You don't kn lishius--vessols ?— ^ Q- Your inform; evidence under oat 'i*- You spoke ii '111(1 1 understood y I vessels generally. Q. The same'rei piling- vessels are ^t*. Why not?— i we than on any 0 ' *i*' I will limit t '^n-reuce during th I'ly, August, Sej)t» psliiiig.ves.sel in tin pidtearofatradin V. Crive nie vour 'ijery rough place. 'i'' lou will reme AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2635 Q. Is not Mr. Steele what you call a fish merchant ? — A. He is not a fislibnyer. Q, Dues he sell his own fish that his vessels have caught ? — A. lie does. Q. Upon the question of insurance, you explained that the insurers would not be liable below a certain percentage. I did not understand whether you knew what the percentage was. — A. I do not. 1 believe it to be 12 per cent. Q. I want to know positively. Do you wish that to go in your evi- ileucp as your statement that it is 13 per cent. ? — A. Not that it is, but tbat I believe it to be so from hearsay. Q. Does it difter from ordinary policies ? — A. Yes, our risks are dif- ferent. Q. Do you know that your policies diflFer from ordinary policies about tlie percentage — about the percentage below which the insirer will not bo liable ? — A. I do not know that they differ. Q, I understand that you don't wish to make a positive statement on that point? — A. I don't wish to make a positive statement on anything 1 ilou't understand. Q. Do you know the percentage below which ordinary companies don't pay— is it 5 per cent. ? — A. I don't know. Q. lu answer to Mr. Dana, you made ^hat struck me as a curious statement — that to raise money on mortgage on a vessel you had to pay a very high rate of interest ? — A. A higher rate than on real estate. Q. What interest would you have to pay ? — A. 1 know a mortgage on a vessel would bring 8 per cent. Q. Tbat applies to all vessels, does it not? — A. Yes. Q. Not specially to fishing- vessels ? — A. lam talking about fishing- vessels. (I With regard to other vessels, engaged in general trade, what would be the rate of interest at which you could raise money on them ? — A, I don't know. Q. For you know anything it may be the same as on fishing-vessels. Do you know or not that it is higher on general trading-vessels than on ishing-vessels ? — A. Xo. Q. In point of fact you don't know anything about it ? — A. Xo. i}. You don't know from practical knowledge that it is 8 per cent, on lishinjj-vessels ? — A. No. Q. Your information on that is not such as will enable you to give i evidence under oath?— A. It is not positive. (J. You spoke in regard to the depreciation of those fishing-vessels, I and I understood your evidence to relate to all shipping ? — A. To iishing- I vessels generally. f^. The same remarks you made with regard to the depreciation of I fishing- vessels are applicable to all shijjping? — A. I don't think so. Q. Why not? — A. Because the wear and tear on fishing- vessels is I more than on any other class of vessels. Q. I will limit the question to a vessel employed in the Gulf of St. Lawrence during the months when the fisliery is prosecuted there — ,Iune, I Inly, August, September, and October. Will th'^ wear .and tear of a Sshiug-vessel in the gulf during those months be more than the wear l^d tear of a trading- vessel ? — A. I should say it was. Q. Give me your reason. — A. The Gulf of St. Lawrence in the fall is I I very rough place. Q. You will remember that the fishing months I gave you were from JiUk Ml: i nhj P"* > '■■■;!; ' n r r ,.. „ 2636 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. * I -si m '.^■SW- ... .;. #^i#'i <*i;'f:'*. Jane to November, not including November? — A. The greatest loss of lisbiug vessels in the gulf was iu August. Q. The depreciation on a vessel engaged in fishing in the gulf iliiiiii;^ those months is as great or greater than that of a vej-sel engaged ji; ordinary trade? — A. I think so. Q. Can you give me your reason ? — A. The reason is that the vessel is engaged in the fishing business and is on a dangerous route. ii. You think the gulf is dangerousif — A. 1 do. Q. What has the danger of the gulf to do with the wear and tear of vessels ? — A. The wear and tear of a vessel comprises injuries she may receive in a gale or by being stranded. Q. The stranding would perhaps come iu another valu ition. The in- surers would most likely have to pay for that.' — A. J'erhaps so and perhaps not. Q. Don't you think they would ? — A. According to what the lo>> would be. The insurance is 4 per cent, for four months. "Why sliould the rate of insurance be so high if there was no danger of wear and tear to the vessel ? Q. 1 don't know. Do they insure the vessels for the season or fm trips ? — A. For the trips. That is what they charge — A per cent, in the gulf, one per cent, per month. Q. AVhat is the insurance of a vessel going to Oeorge's Bank .'—A, I don't know. Q. You were posted yourself in regard to it .' — A, I never posted my self on that point. Q. Take vessels fishing off' your own coast. With regard to wear ami tear, don't you think the wear and tear of vessels fishing oft' your own coast would be more than that of vessels fishing iu the gulf during tin- months they fish there ? — A. I do not. Q. Not in the winter season .' — A. We fish on our shores all the year round. Q. Is not the wear and tear greater on your coast than in the giili during the summer months when they fish there .' — A. I should say it was. Q. You spoke of the profits made out of fish, after they had boon I lauded, by the fish merchants. Will you explain what the profits are .'- J A. On mackerel all the profits are iu the packing. Q. And how much per barrel profit is there on that .' — A. From tbirtyj cents to fifty cents. Q. A little higher than that, is it not ? — A. No ; I don't think it is Q. Have you ever i)acked yourself .' — A. Yes. Q. Much ? — A. I packed during three years. Q. So you are able to tell about packing. — A. Packing was then do:ie| at 81.15 per barrel. Now it is $1.75. Q. Did it i)ay at 81.15 '. — A. Yes ; barrels theu were very much lo\vcr.| Q. JJut it left a profit theu '! — A. Yes. (}. Have barrels risen in proportion to the rise in the charge for pacli'j ing I — A. Y'es. Q. The same proportion ? — A. About the same proportion, I thiiili ()). Then, do I understand that the iucrejised cost of packing is sold; due to the increased cost of barrels i Is there not a larger profit mad^ on packing ? — A. I don't know but what they may make a larger protit Prices went up during the war, and they remained so till, 1 think, hui year, when they dropped. Q. In what other ways have the merchants got profits upon pro visions furnished to the families of fishermen ? — A. To the vessels. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2637 ip.r^ Q. Uave you tbongbt over ainco yesterday the question that was asked you, as to the prolits they charge on supplies furnished to the families of the fishermen / — A. 1 have not given it a thought since yes- terday. Q, Perhaps you did not give it much thought before yesterday ? — A. I only jiave it from my knowledge of the business. (^). What would you be prei)ared to say today is the profit they make on supplies furnished to the tVimilies of fishermen ? — A. About ten per cent. Q. Xot more than that ? — A. It would not be over that. Q. Vou know that sometimes they lose the supplies i — A. f know they do. Q. And don't they make sutticient profit to cover all that ? — A. I don't thiiilv they do. Q. You think they are not shrewd enough men to make the charge snlliciout to insure them against loss ? — A. Tiiey might. (}. Yon don't know exactly. Have you examined their books and prices so as to be enabled to testify accurately out hat point .' — A. Xoj I bave not. {}. You volunteer what you assume is correct ' — A. I give it from my iicolleetion of my business in 1801 and 1802. (I I understand they agree with wholesale dealers, to have the goods tiiiiiislied at wholesale prices, and the fishermen are charged the retail [nices .' — A. Y'es. Q, Tlie ditference between the wholesale price and retail price you don't know ;' — A. 1 don't know. {). Tlie ditference is the profit which the mercluuit makes .' — A. Yes, ami taia's the risk. Q. You were town clerk of Gloucester for some time, and are ac- i|u;uiited, of course, with the valuations, more or less, of the dilfereut iiifi'cliants ? — A. Y'es. Q, Vou spoke of two or three names as being leading men .' — A. Yes. (,>, What are those men assessed at' — A. 1 could not tell; 1 don't |rrtolle(;t. As town clerk I would not know. (^>. Yon seem to have filled numerous offices, and, no doubt, filled hhemefiiciently ? — A. The assessors assess for taxes and keep their own 1 books. Q. From the knowledge you have gained in looking over the assess- jR'book, cannot you state what a man like Mr. Leighton is taxed for ' — I A. I guess he is taxed at Q, Take 3Ir. Leighton's firm. — A. I suppose it is assessed at $30,000. ii, What is that on I — A. That is on the valuation of his real estate mil vessels. Q. How does that compare with its value ? — A. In Gloucester they Itiisat a little over three fourths of the value. Q, Of its cash value or ordinary market value ? — A. Of the ordinary harlcet value, as it is considered. If you force such a property as Mr. |Lti?bton's to a sale, it would not bring anything like its value. <|. What other leading men did you mention ? — A. Det^nis «S: Ayer. (|. About what would be their valuation ? — A. I don't know. (|. Take Mr. Steele ; what would his firm be taxed at?— A. Mr. Steele |spbably taxed at 820,000. I|. Would you put the four leading men in Gloucester down as worth 1^820,000 to 830,000 each ?— A. I don't think anybody in the fishing piuess in Gloucester is worth over 830,000. (|. What are they assessed at ? — A. I don't know. I have not seen iii...-:::!*^^ 'f-d 'ff-^f -* .•»}■ ,,, ltl(J ^-'im-- I.?' sl3S rnESS^ '-^sfl^T'^'l '^ /-^ ^'*' 1 J - .J" ft^ j 1 * *i! '^ lalS'-^^IUM i^"' ^H^^^^l /»«|fl^^Sli \ r^r'iypi^iK ' ' -"^i?T^^^ 1 1 It'll 2638 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. au average, average rfet the assessors' books for a good many years; I caunot tell. I hare formed my judgment from what I think they are worth. Q. How many vessels is Mr. Steele running ? — A. Ou nine vessels. Q. They would range from what price ? — A. They would $5,U0O each. Q. What is his real estate worth ?— A. About $10,000. Q. What are the premises where he lives worth, another ijf 10,000 ?_ A. I should think his house is worth $5,000; perhaps that is a little high. Q. Those amounts would reach $00,000 ; you told me he is put don n as being assessed at $20,000 ? — A. That may be. Q. Why have you stated that you believed him to be assessed at about $20,000? — A. I have stated his valuation, perhaps, high. Q. Do you think there could be that dift'erence between you autl the assessors ? — A. There might be. Q. Do you really think you could be, or the assessors could be, so for in error? — A. I should think George Steele is worth about $35,000. Q. You mean after paying all his debts ? — A. I don't know wbat bis debts are. Q. You mean after paying his debts ? — A. I mean the face value of his property is $35,000. I don't know what his debts may be. Q. How do you reconcile the statements ? — A. I probably set a high value on his vessel property and other property. Q. You have already put in the vessels at a valuation of $5,000 each under the statement you made under oath yesterday. — A. I know he had some very expensive vessels. Q. When you were making a statement of Mr. Steele's business, sbon ing how much he had lost or gained, you put down the vessels as woitli $5,000 each ? — A. I did so. That is what I took as an average, because some cost $8,000 and some less. Q. And in order to show what he gained or lost, you charged inter est at 5 per cent, on that amount ? — A. Yes. Q. I^ow, you may be all astray about the valuation ? — A. No ; I dou't say I am all astray. You asked me for the assessor's valuation, aud I could not give it, and I answered from my judgment. Q. How do you reconcile the statements ? — A. I can reconcile it in this way : If Mr. Steele's property was sold today it would not briug more than $35,000 ; that is the face value of it. (i. That is, if forced into the market to-day ? — A. Y'es ; it would uot bring more than $35,000. Q. Don't you know that if a large quantity of any kind of property, not fishing property alone, is forced into the market the price is sure to fall ? — A. You want anything of that kind set at a cash value, dout you.' Q. Suppose you force a lot of stock on the market, more chau the pub lie ' low. Q. 1 am not talking about forced sales, but of the assessed value, as sworn to by the assessors, and as you as a practical man would value u. How do you reconcile the discrepancy between your statement of yester day, when you placed each vessel at $5,000, and that statement that you do uot believe the face value of Mr. Steele's property, irrespective of what he own?, is worth more than $20,000 or $30,000?— A. I took the aver age of vessels for 19 years. 1 did uot take them at what they are^'ortlij today. Q. 1 think you did. I think you allowed a large sum for depreciation want, will it not necessarily run the price down? — A. It would niu| When you we rou took inst A. Yes. Q. You cha That is what 1 Q. You thei ou that capital Q. You then thousand dolla (,►. And thei Yes. Q. So if you I stock to where toalargeexteu painting and re Q. I recall y< depreciation of Q. I ask you years ?--A. Pro Q. You gave value of his ves I hold to it. Q. If you tak reduced ouo-hal vessels averaging it would bring $1 Q. Did you no A. I know I did iu the middle, at property. Q. You change should think tha set down the hou Q- I'ou are co ?5,«0O, but if it ^^ Q- Does he ow aud the house f Q. Does he owi Q- Has he no c that he owns ten tirectors, and he uirector. . Q- laskyoufra '"vested in other Jl'ardlythiukthji Q. Does he owi store, but our outt .<{.\yhatvaluati t"at8l,o00would |t». VVili yoa incl Jt'. \V hat would . /*!■ How do you P'uake it $00,000, I I'alue. ' , Q- I'Jien this ace m or real value AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2639 When you were innkin;; up the statement to show the flshinj; business, vou took insurance 107 vessels, $o35,()()0, that is 85,000 each vessel ? — A. Yes. Q. You charge insurance on those vessels at that rate, $21,000 ? — A. That is what he probaoly paid. Q. You then charged against the earnings of the vessels the interest ou that capital sum, $."i3r),000 at 7 per cent '. — A. Yes. Q. You then charged taxes on $160,000 ? — A. One hundred and sixty thousand dollars for seventeen years. q. And then yor charged depreciation on the vessels, $29,000 ? — A. Yes. Q. So if you charge depreciation aud interest you keep up the capital stock to where it originally was ? — A. The depreciation is wear and tear to a large extent, aud what are expenses of the vessel — Siiils and rigging, painting and repairing. Q. I recall your attention to the fact that I asked you what was the (lepreciatiou of a vessel in one year, aud you gave $1,200 ? — A. Yes. il 1 ask you what would bo the depreciation yearly for the next tive years ?— A. Probably not more than $800. Q. You gave your estimate yesterday of Mv. Steele's wor:h and the value of his vessels — are you inclined today to withdraw it :' — A. No, 1 hold to it. Q. If you take off ouehalf of the principal the interest would bo reduced ouehalf ? — A. The value of the vessels would be $ 15,000 — 9 vessels averaging $5,000 each; aud if the wharf was sold I think that it would bring $8,000, a fair valuation in my opinion. Q. Did you not just now state that this wharf was worth $10,000 ? — A. I know I did ; but his wharf is, together with another part, divided jQ the middle, aud this would not make it so valuable as other wharf property. Q. You change this valuation, then, from $10,000 to $8,000 ?— A. I should think that $8,000 would be a fair valuation, and theu I should set down the house at $4,000. Q. Y'ou are coming down on that valuation very much ' — A. I said .?5,000, but if it was put up at auction it would not bring that much. Q. Does he own any other property besides the 9 vessels, the wharf, aud the house? — A. That is all the property it shows on the face. Q. Does he own stock of any kind? — A. 1 do not know. Q. Has he no capital invested ? — A. I do not know, but I presume that he owns ten shares in the Gloucester Bank. He is one of the directors, aud he must have teu shares to qualify himself for being a director. Q. I ask you frankly what do you believe ; has he or has he not money i invested in other public works in Gloucester i — 1). I do not think so. 1 hardly think that he has. (h Does he own goods or auythiug else .' — A. He has goods in his [store, but our outtitters do not keep a large stock of goods in stock. Q. What valuation would you put on this stock ? — A. I should think I that 8 1,500 would cover the value of the stock which he keeps on hand. Q. Will you. include the shares in your estimate ? — A. I will do so. Q. What would you put it at on the whole?— A. $15,000. Q. How do you make that out ? — A. live times nine make $45,000. II make it $00,000, and three-quarters of it makes $15,000 as the cash I vahie. Q. Then this account which you have made up is not put down at the Iwsh or real value, but at a fancy value ? — A. It is put down at the :■■■ *->5^ i 'H 2640 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. average value of Lis vessels, tnkeu for the time that they have bei^u rnnuiiig. Q. What right had yon to charge interest and insurance on thisurop erty at an amount largely disproportionate to the real value ? Don t you see thjit you reduce the ])rotits ininicnsely by that mode of proceed ing? — A. That is the face value of the property ; if he pays interest o;; uioro than he ought to, that is his loss. Q. But you dou't pretend to say that he is paying the interest ynw made up in this sum ; this is your estimate ? — A. Well, it is an estininte based on the original cost of the vessels, and the average cost, (J. I will ask you fraidily if yon knew what his vessels were wortli, and what you ought to i)ut down there ? Is it fair to make up tlu'sum and charge interest on ."^.jSojOOU ? — A. I think so, because 1 have c'liarj,'e(l nothing for losses. Q. I beg your pardon; this does not allow the possibility of risk, You have insured the capital invested, charged interest at the rate of; per cent, on that capital, allowed 14A per cent, for depreciation ot ves sels, and charged insurance upon the charter and outfits, and it isi dead certainty '! — A. That is true ; insurance is charged on the cliiirtei, (}. There is a dead certainty and no possil^ility of risk .' — A. Tliut is true, as the statement goes; yes. Q. J)o you think that is fair, when he, is rnunliig no risk, to ask liiiu to pay insurance on the value of the property far beyond wliiit it i^ worth J In that way you reduce the proiits down to nothing .' — A. Vcs, Q. Suppose you rea«ljust that sum, and make up the sum on tlie u;il value of these things, and charge interest on the real value of the viv sels, and insurance ami taxes on real value '. — A. I should then liavc ut charge more for depreciation. (i>. Are you aware what percentage you charged for depreciation .'—A, I did not charge so much as it would be. (). Are you aware what percentage you charged in this account .'—A, 'So; 1 did not reckon any percentage. Q. It seems to me to look like IJA per cent., at least ? — A. For depiv elation ? Well. (iJ. Do you think that 14A per cent, is a large sum, or not, to allow Im depreciation ? — A. I do not think that it is a large sum. Q. Why '! — A. Because it is very expensive running a vessel. Q. But running a vessel has nothing to do with depreciation ?"A. Why not. Q. Explain how it is. I cannot conceive of the connection !—A. Tliel wear and tear of the vessel is an expense, and it costs something to kwp j her in repair and running order. Q. That is for repairs 1 — A. Well, that is part of the depreciation ac count. Can you find repairs there anywhere I i Q. Part of it is depreciation account. It embraces both the actiialj repairs and the actual depreciation which arises from the vessel gettiiiirj older '! — A. That is it. Q. You stated that the $800 is the amount of depreciation after tliej first year for the following five years ; do you still adhere to that .'— A.j Yes; that would be about right, I should think. If anything it woiildf be more, because Procter's vessel shows about $1,200 or $1,400 expciijej in this regard. Q. That is in the statement which you have put in to-day ?— A. Ye<., Q. I see in it that $79 is charged for tinware and $48 for anclior lostJ but is that an ordinary expense ? It is an extraordinary loss ? It doef not often happen ? — A. I have known vessels lose two anchors a jear| i). Every yeai 'i'. How miicl ""'|'!; with Mnwi *i'- How much 'i'- And liow „ V- Von charge |i;'iios.s that Stee 'i>. Then there Q. Vou considf liy Mr. Fo,' *l Explain win piiii's. % IMr. Da' '^ Vou put doM pf~^- Ves; , <>'. J)o you bni pile expenditure J Q. ^^'ilat do yoii loi'ilialf; I niii ta I 'i'. Wliatdo vol l-^": If is taken on ,'''; ^« this balla We of it. 'i- The sum of ^ WahoiiteiOay, 'i'' is a new swiv '.'■ hi fact, this i r'"«* for (hiprocia fi.it a cliarterer ot i>y yiv. Fost Q. Hilt he would i>y Mr. Davie \'l The cost of b; f "'^'iii' and tear ™'M III (ho vess( Kii; p AWARD (F THE riSHKUY COMMISSION. 2641 q, I dare sny, but ih it ordinary wear and tear ? — A. Why not ' It is |,;,it of tlio d(*pr<'ciatioii. Q. Is it an ordinary loss ? Is it fair to cliarfic llic loss ol" an anchor wiiidi occnrs dnrinj; (nie year, as a {;eiit'ral iduiijje ayainst a vessel for tlicyciu's depreciation .' — A. No. ij. Von have done it here. — A. Ilowf Q, In this very statement, in which you make an expenditure of ;i ,Si);; —A. 1 did not call it !?1,8(M>, but about 2!l,l-'fl,Un) for that vessel. Q. I find it marked down here as Al,S23 ? — A. Yes. (^». And you think it would be about !i<(>(). i}. And liow much from the lost-anchor item i — A. Not a cent. (J. You charji^e that every year as a part of the expenses ? — A. Yes ; jljjiiess that Steele's expenses average an anchor every year. (I Then there are railway fees ? — A. Yes ; but that I don't take off. {}. You consider that a yearly expense '. — A. Yes. Jiy Mr. Foster : (}. Explain what this is for. — A. It is for the marine mil way for re- pairs. By ]\Ir. Davies : (>. You put down 803 for lumber for ice-house ; is that required every lyciir!— A. Yes; more or less. (). Do you build new ice-houses every year? — A. No, not new; but Isoiiie expenditure is required in this relation yearly. Q. What do you think would be a fair allowance for that ? — A. About |(ii!i' half ; I will take 835 oil" from that item. ^>. What do you do with ballast; does it remain in the vessel '. — A. |}io; it is taken out. i». Is this ballast expense incurred every year? — A. BtliDJe of it. l>. The sum of $80 is i)ut down here for it? — A. Y'es. |lii;»t al)oiit 840 a year would be a fair estimate for ballast. ^l Is a new swivel gun recjuired every year ? — A. No. !•• In fact, this is not a depreciation account; it does not show the liHiis for depreciation and wear and tear? — A. Items are there for Viat a cliarterer of a vessel would have to furnish. I'.y Mr. Foster: ')■ l>ut he would not supply a swivel gun ? — A. Probably not. ]'>y Mr. Davies: Q. Tlie cost of ballast would never be charged for depreciation on pit wear and tear of a vessel ? — A. I do not think so. it would be :;e(l in the vessel's expense account. IfiO F No; not the I should say '"ii ^(?, major ? — A. As to the s'vivelgun, you eau tlirow tiiat out ; it is an e\. ceplion to the general rule, l)i'causc there an' not »nany vessels ,>iii,|| carry siU!h guns; but all those expenses, added to the depretMiUion ,ii the hull of the vessel, go to make up tliiit tlepreciation account. Q. In making ui* this account you have included these items as p.ii' of it i — A. Ves. Q. I"]ven taking thiit jnethod of making up and charging d<'pr(Miaii(iii, let me ask you to look at the return before you, showing as net ('aiiiiii;;>i for each stdiooner •■i for the other half of the season. they were then employed ? — A. Yes. Q. ^Multiply tint by 107, the number of vessels mentioned in tlni gum J — A. Yes. Q. What is the residt ? — A. Fifty-three thousand seven hundrt'd mmi fourteen dollars. Q. That is not a bad profit for a man to make ? — A. No. ii. What percentage would that give on the capital eniido.vi'tl .'— AJ Y'ou don't look above ami see how the charterer stands. Q. I will come to that directly. What percentaj^e would !s!5o,7! 1 hiiiii on the cai)ital invested; 853r>,()()() ? — A. it woidd be a little slioil ot \i per cent. (}. This is supposing that the owner of these 107 vessels would Iniv^ run them without a shallow of risk, paying insuiance u|)on tlicin an receiving interest at the rate of 17 per cent — 7 per cent, on liis ('apiiiij being already included — paying taxes out of his profits, and liavinj; aj allowance of 14.^ per cent, depreciation. If that is so, will you kiniil explain what you meant by telling ^Mr. Dana that a person who invt'stel his money in vessels and who did not bring skilled labor to bear uiioj his ojterations could not make money ? — A. 1 did so for the verv ifiisijf that George Steele's vessels are the most successful vessels in (lioiiti'ste (}. But this is only a suj)posed state of things. What did yon una by making that answer to ]Mr. Dana? — A. That is a well-known hur.l (^>. Unfortunately the facts and your evidence do not agree, I a| atraid. You have proved here pretty conclusively that a man wf invests .$r»or),UOO on these vessels, enii»loyed in business, should nniki' Ij per cent, on his money after [taying taxes, insurance, and keeping; liij self perfectly safe. How do you reconcile that result with the stuj uient you made to Mr. Dana, that a person who invests his niomyf this business would be sure to lose ? — A. You do not take into aci.'oi| the loss, but you take it as being all protit. Q. The owner would sutler no loss, though the charterer wonld. seems singular, does it not ? You say this is where a man cluuteii vessel? — A. Yes. Q. In the first place, is George Steele a charterer of vessels '—A. Q. Then this statement, which assumes to relate to George Stee business, as his name is mentioned as the charterer of the vessel, ' not rejiresent an existing state of facts, but is merely a theory wi ''•'"ptioii, when in AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2«43 voii put forth ?— A. I Hupposod I luul mcntioiiod on tho uuconnt that it wiis an «'Stiiimto. (»(»ks. 1 asked Mr. Steele tor permissi')n to show tliein to the ('(iiiimission. il Von then had the opportnnity of examining his books / — A. Yes, IIS to liis tri|>books, but not as to his ledger. (^>. Did yon ask for his ledger? — A. I did not. (^ I suppose if yon had done so yon wonid have obtain<'ably 'l shonld. (l Therefore yon do not know what his books show as to a(!tnal |)rotit iiiiil loss snstaiiH'd by him daring this period '! — A. I do not. il And the actnal state of fa(!ts may bo at variance with tho theory \im advance l — A. 1 hardly think so. il Supposing that (Wjorgo Steele stands in the |)Ositioii you assume 111 this statement, ho would bo bankrupt beyond all redemi>tion .' — A. 1 Vfs. (^». Vou have proved him from theory to be baidvrui)t l»eyond all re- Kiciiiption, when in fact he is a capitalist worth .*! Ij, <>(((), wliiiih exhiltits 111' (li 111 're nee between the practical statement and tho theory .' — A. Yes; lilt he had capital when he wont into the business. (^>. Do you state that ho brought it in with him l — A. One-half of it iMsinado in tho sajl-making l)usines8. (^>. Wliere was the other half made? — A. In the fishing business dur- |iii;f iiineieen years, but that is oidy !^ 1,000 a year, and ho ougiit to make Ithat. A. Tho actual loss on each vessel, for 107 vessels, you place at >*107 ? — lA, Ves. (•. Will you make that up and tell mo for how much ho ought to bo laili'tiiulter ? — A. His loss would bo 8l.7,8(!i). (•• And that is not consistent with tho facts; Iw. is not a defaidter to iliiit iiniount. — A. He has made it up in other parts of his business, but |islai as iiis vessels are concerned ho has probably lost that sum. \i, Vou did not got access to his profit and loss ledger .' — A. No. I). That would show exactly how it is, and this is an imaginary con- liisioii ;' — A. Y'es. [ could not make it up without the actual bills of K|ieiises for his vessels. 1 thought it was already understood that this |«.is imaginary. t|. Tinning to the credit side of that account, the catch is 33,G4.> bar- Jlsof mackerel? — A. Yes. ^. Will you tell me where you got the values? — A. From the trip- And that shows the values at which ho settled with his men '—A. |i'r^[t!i, '|. Does it show the actual cash price which he received for these pl5 barrels '? — A. Yes. n Will you explain ? — A. Remember that this is for the fish and the frng, which he receives when he sells the trip. L)oes that trip on its face show the actual moneys which he received imt ^ .''4 -',■ f- ''*^ ■:«r..;£WKi»:a|^Ra ,4* ,■ tl ■.a.**>*. ?3£jjae.jj£-'i ^ii^M&. mw^^.. 2644 AWAKD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. for the barrels of fish ami to whom they were sold ? — A. It (siiows it with the ])a(;kinjf out. Q, Will you turn up one of the trips and explain your meaning ]—\_ Here is a trip made betweeu August aud October in the scliooiier M.iathou. Q. It is a settlement between Mr. Steele and his crew ? — A. Yes; and the settlement between Mr. Steele and his vessel for that trip. Q. Does it show to whom the mackerel were sold ? — A. No. Q. Does it show the i)rice per barrel for which they were sold ?— A. Yes; the ])ac''ing out. The prices were $16, $12, and 8(J. Q. Are not these the prices at which he settled with his men ?— A, Certain'y, and the prices at which he sold the tish. Q. Are you prepared to state that he never sold any of those flsli tor any higher price than that which he allowed his men ? — A. I would not swear to that, because I do not know. Q. You do not know whether this was the case or not ? — A. I will swear in this respect with regard to my own vessels. Q. Are you prepared to state that i\[r. Steele did not realize n larger price for the mackerel thr.n that at which he settled with his crew .'—A. I do not actually know v hether this was the (^ase or not, but 1 do know that it is the custom in Gloucester for the merchants to settle witli tlioir crews at the exact prices for which they sell their fish. They do nut settle with the crews for less than they get. Q. Did not you tell me, major, that it was the invariable practice fur the merchants to settle with their crews when the vessels i)aclie(l oil, and that on a rise taking place in the market the former got the benetit of it i — A. O, that is a different thing. If the merchant buys the mack erel of the crew and keeps the flsh ou hand for a rise, and obtains it, that is his profit. Q. So that the profit which Steele may have made with these .S'iJliJ barrels of mackerel is a profit of which you absolutely know norhiug!- A. 1 know nothing about that. Q. So this statement does not pretend to be an exhibit of the actual profit which Steele may have made in this relation? — A. No; but I know the custom of the city, and that is to sell the trip aud to alloiv the men the price then received. Q. I merely want to show that the course of business is such tiiat an experienced man can take advantage of a rise in the market ami make a handsome profit of it i — A. That is true ; aud on the other baud lie may lose. Q. At what rate per barrel do yon credit these mackerel ? — A. Tlie average price, as I stated in my explanation of the summary, is ?!.' per barrel for the 17 years during which he had vessels in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence. That is the price which he actually received for liL< mackerel. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q, Does that cover all descriptions of mackerel ? — A. Yes, all dt'scri|i tions that are packed from his vessel. Q. And the average was as high as ><12 ? — A, Yes. Q. That was the actual result '! — A. Yes. Q. That is without packing, of course t — A. Yes. By Mr. Foster : Q. Do you mean to say that INIr. Steele's mackerel during 17 vearsl averaged >< 12 a barrel, without packing-charges? — A. Yes; Mr. t?i«le| was very successful in his tri]>s. Q. He tool extremely hi^ li.sliiii^, and v yir. Dji (i. I (ind til oxainint'd hen n'iilly ^oii are are ciirreucy v Q. You chii * 18,052.80 ?__. 'i». Dividing Q. I notice I actaal stock el Q. Hliowing tiie.se two stat€ Q- Why (lid the Pbarsalia, —A. Of coius( charges. Q. Then this nary run !~A. ^)- And this book.s 1 — A. Yci Q. Are the it( P-Miendi tares?— Q. They are s Q- You have i ot'Woentsadav liiilibut fishery ?- Q- You thiiik Q. At what t]<. '"'"'e by the raer I'* in the neigh bo Q. Would you ""oiuil average al Q- Then on $8, be made ?~A, Y Q- You charge Q- Are there oi ^even and a half ^l Surely then ''Is in two barrels Q- Do not two" "'we are three an : 'MVould yoH -HI could notsa ■ \\'liat would >•• ^\ liat does , . 'v ueii rue price was low ue scut iiis vessels cod- lisliiiiji, iiiHl wlieu tbey were high he seut them to tlie gulf. Mr. Davies : Q. I fiuil that the average actual receipt of Mr. Noble, who has been exainiiictl l»ero for the three qualities of mackerel, were $1.">.'54, so that really you are a little below what I tliouj^ht the price would be. These are ciirreucy values, I suppose ? — A. Yes. (J. You charge against these catches of 17 years for bait, &o., sW,052.8<)?— A. Yes. {). Dividing that sum by 107 leaves 8150 for each vessel? — A. Yes>. i^ 1 notice that in a statement concerning an actual trip you put the actual stock charges down at 8115? — A. Y'^es. q. Showing a dirterence of thirty live dollars between these items in these two statements ? — A. That may be so. Q. Wliy did you not charge this item as 8llo, as was the case with the Pbarsalia, concerning which the sample statement was put in here ? —A. Of course I took the actual sum which was expended for stock charges. Q. Then this expenditure for the Phpisaiia was a little below the ordi- nary ruu ? — A. Y'es ; it is below the average. (). And this item represents the actual expenditure taken from the books ?— A. Yes. Q. Are the items for outfits and expenses put down also from actual expenditures ? — A. No; they are estimates. Q. They are suppositious? — A. They are estimates; yes. Q. You have already gone over the provisions to show that tho item of 111 cents a day in this regard was correct; that had reference to the halibut fishery ? — A. All other fisheries average the same. Q. You think so ? — A. Yes. Q, At what figure do you estimate the percentage of profit which is iiiatle by the merchant who furnishes the supplies ? — A. I guess that it is in the neighborhood of 10 per cent. Q. Would you say that it is above ten per cent. ? — A. No ; I think it woiinl average about ten per cent. Q. Then on $85,380 spent for provisions a profit of about 88,530 would be iiuule ? — A. Yes. Q. You charge 81 a barrel for salt ? — A. Yes ; that is the usual charge. Q. Are there only two barrels in. a hogshead of salt ? — A. There are seven and a half bushels, or two barrels in it. (}. Surely there must be more '? — A. There are seven and a half bush- els in two barrels of salt. Q. Do not two and a half bushels make a barrel of salt ? — A. No ; j there are three and a half bushels to the barrel. Q. Would you not say that there are 5 barrels to the hogshead ? — A. I No, I could not say that. Q. What would you put it at ?— A. 2.27 fish-barrels. <,». What does it cost a hogshead 1—A. 82. 'i'. You charge $8,500 for salt, for as many barrels at 81 a barrel; lone half of it would be profit, and that would leave 81,250 as profit ?— I -A. Yes. Q. You set down 107 bait-mills, one for each vessel, for tho voyage ? — iVes. Q. Do you mean to tell us that a vessel requires a new bait-mill on |evdy voyage she makes ?— A. No. ■:sm 'V'M Si^ 2646 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Would you reduce this item oue-half ? — A. I would reduce it out' quarter. Q. Would not one bait-mill last two trips ? — A. Yes ; it would lin^t for 4 months and 13 days. Q. Would one last for 2 different trips ? — A. These mills wear out as tn the teeth in one season, and these have to be renewed for the noxt tii)i. The wood-work of the mill will last for 2 seasons. Q. Then you charge the value of a new bait-mill for each season's trip, and that is too much ? — A. Yes; it should be .^. As to salt, I m.iy here mention that 50 hof^siieads of salt will till 115 barrels ; these hogs heads contain about 3 barrels. By Mr. Dana : Q. ITow many bushels are reckoned to a hogshead of salt at tlie I'li.v torn-house ? — A. 8. By Mr. Davies : Q. iJo you mean to sav that salt costs, wholesale, 82 a ho^slicad .'— A. 1 know that is the price charged for it. Q. What does it cost, say, by the 100 or 1,000 hogsheads .' Does a merchant for such a quantity i)ay 82 a hogshead f — A. Is'o, probably not ; he would probably obtain it for 81.75 or 81.87A per hogshead. Q. Showing a ditterence of about 25 cents per hogshead as proQt .'—A, Yes. Q. Would not the profit be more than 25 cents per hogshead on 8,.")i)ii barrels of salt ? — A. ifo. Q. P>y the way, what portion did you take off the bait-mill item .'—A, I took off one-quarter. Q. Of what does the fishing-gear for these 107 vessels consist ,'— A. Of hooks, and lines, and keelers. Q. Are they not j;ood for a second season ? — A. IJooks and lines are not, but the keelers may be so used. Q. Do you mean to say that they throw away tlieii' hooks and Udcs atici having been used for one season ! — A. They are no good alter oin' season. Q. What else goes to make up this fishing gear in this iteiii o! $1,815 ? — A. The cost of the pewter is included, 1 guess. Q. What proportion would you take off that for one season .'—A. ^\! a cent. Q. AVhat i)roportion of the money thus invested could be utilized at the end of the season .' — A. I do uoV think that a (;ent's worth in value could l)e taken off tliis item, Tlie keelers got pretty wtdl used up at the end of the season. Q. Surely the [)ewter would be good at the end of the year .'—A, Idu not think so. Q. Do you say as a matter of fact that this fishing-gear, iiicludiii;: llif articles you have mentioned, is absolutely valueless at the end ot one fishing trij) ? — A. I «lo. Q. Absolutely valueless, and treated so ? — A. Jt is treated so, (,). Nothing can be realized from it at all '! — A. Nothing at all. (i. Where did you get the customhouse and port charges fioiii .'— -i' I obtained a good portion of them in the Domiuiou ; 8 cents per liii;;> head of salt is charged in Gloucester for weighing-fees; and then tlit vessel has to clear from Gloucester. Q. You think that this 8U0 is a fair charge ?— A. Yes. Mr. Steele paid a license on his vessel during those years. Q. The next charge sets the charter of these 107 vessels at •'l'-"0 m mouth; yoa 1 tempt to shov is it the pract Jilt to others ; Q. Then th lii'KOUs in Gk ii'. But this Q. Tlien of < it would be fai t(i run their ve Q. I stipposi (iloucester ? — . Q. Did you a vessel fishing biit it IS a cust( (,>. Is all the eliargcd agains Q. The crew Q. is it 4 per rent. Q. The mastc Q. Whutdo.v lurrels of imwli Q. Taking 50 cents is too higj Q. What won i'liVes which nil (.>. U'ill .vou i ■?-<.'S:'';; is that Q. There is $; (,». How :'_A. Q- Vou calcnl iiiiir own figure -'V. I did not s Q. Then, f'nui] iiinoniits to 810L Q. And till! pi| -V. That makes •> Q. 1 make it > I 'II? this from $2 I '"i-i'. inid tell nil 'i*. Taking thJ ■i»inl loss you p| , Q- And that ij '"'"11'' reason, li, Q- That is afi ■I'fi'i'adcpreciatf I'Wipaid; nnd I"^"''-"*f<'«l in thesJ ii"'^ l)ceii not oil '"'"•/>" the capif •^' Thero is 8751 '^ I wanted t| [.foiir own figure 'fiiinlv your li-. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2647 inoutli ; yoa have made up this statement, I presume, to show, or to at- tempt to show, the actual result in connection with tishing- vessels, but is it tbe practice among the merchants who own vessels to charter thetn jut to others i—\. No. Q. Then this theory has no basis of fact to rest on ? — A. There are i,er.soiis in Gloucester who sometimes charter vessels to go tishing. (^. Hilt this is not the custom ? — A. No. Q. Tiien of course it would be pretty <>0 .'—A. That was reduced to >f(»,L'()(). (,). How .' — A. Vou reduced it, and you told me to set it at .S(),-0(». Q. Vou calculated the rate at 10 per cent, of -"r^Si-jOO odd, and 1 took yniir ouii ligiu'es, leaving i^.S,.jOO; then there is •S-,300 for profit on salt? -A. I (lid not say that; in round numbers tlu' ligures would be >'l,7.">0. (,>. Then, from the bait-mill item you take olf one-quarter, which aiiimuits to >^UV2 ". — A. Yes. Q. And the profit on packing is 8 10,825; add these items together. — A. That makes si7,0Sl. Q, I make it 8-7, 00(). Your sum shows a loss of 8 4i,71o, and deduct- iiij: this from 827, 80(), what have you left; do the sum, as in the other ("ISC. mid tell me what profit is made on the whole transaction. — A. It ■ *i».2L'o. ^}. Taking the whole transaction, what profit is made instead of the [awliil loss yon ju'evionsly made out .' — A. It is 8i),233. Q. And that is after the insurance comi»auies have been paid; this is [lor one season, mind. — A. Y'"es; it is on 107 vessels. Q. That is after the owner has received 7 per cent, for his money; [atteia lU'ineciation of 82!),000 has been cOnsideivcl ; after the taxes have lii'on piiid ; and after insurance has been obtained upon the ca])ltal liiivi'sti'd in these vessels and upon the charter and outfits ; and there [lias heeii not one cent of the risk incurred while 7 per cent, has been I'liil on the capital employed besides, and still you have this profit *. — A. There is 87.') for each vessel. Q. I wanted to show this sum could be worked out differently with jyoiuowM ligures; this $0,000 profit is more consistent with the facts; |1 think your figures are a little astrav. — A. I am not satisfied about it. ]^iHt iv- I WM'^ 2b48 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. I suppose not. — A. From my ji^eneral knowleilgo of the biisiuess of Gloucester 1 am not satisfled with that result. Q. 1 iind from your statements that after the Washington Treaty was entered into, 'Mr. Steele withdrew his vessels from your shore lishciv and concentrated all his efforts on the bay ; am I correct in inakiii;' that statement ? — A. In 1870 and 1871 he did not send any vessel tu the bay. Q. But in 1872 he commenced sending them to the bay 1 — A. Yes, Q. And he has sent tliem there ever since? — A. Yes. Q. And he has since sent none to lish on your shore / — A. Xo. (i. Since 1872 he has sent none to tish on your shore, but has sent all his vessels to the bay f — A. Yes. Q. What was the average price of the mackerel caught in the Gulf of St. Lawrence realized by Mr. Steele between 1858 and 1805 .' In the first place, what was the average catch per vessel made by his vessels in the gulf between 1858 and 18(15 ? — A. It was 338 packed barrels for these years inclusive, and the mackerel sold for $11.10 per barrel. Q. What was it between 1805 and 1872 ! — A. Two hundred aiul eighty barrels, which sold for $14.40, exclusive of the packing. Q. And what was it between 1872 and 1870'.' — A. Two hundred and twenty-three barrels, which sold for $10.01. Q. That makes an average catch per vessel of 304 packed banel:^. which realized $12 a barrel ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the average catch of his shore vessels between IS.^s ami 1805 ?— A. It was 191 barrels. Q. As against 338 barrels for the vessels which he sent to tlie hay. W^hat is the average price which he realized for these mackerel .'—A, Five dollars and seventy cents per .barrel. His vessels fished on our shore for four years between those dates. Q. As against $11 received for his bay mackerel. Xow take the whole period during which his vessels ftshed on the American shore. — A. The average time they were there employed was two months and twenty days each ; their average catch was 239 barrels, and the average price of their mackerel $7.10 a barrel. Q. As against $12 per barrel which he received for his bay mackerel. What was the share per month ot the vessels which were engaj^ed iu Ashing in the bay? — A. Three hundred and seventy two dollars auJ sixty-six cents. Q. What was such share for the vessels which fished on the Aiucricau shore ? — A. Three huudred and ten dollars and sixty cents. Q. What was the share for each man of the crews which tished iu the bay! — A. Twenty-four dollars and eighty-four cents. Q. And what was such share of the crews which fished on the Ameri- can shore ? — A. Twenty dollars and seventy cents; but that is nut a fair average, because Steele's vessels were not engaged in fishing as a rule on the American shore. Q. Am I not taking the average for corresponding years iu the bay | and on your shore ? — A. Yes. Q. Does it not appear that Mr. Steele must have been losing laoii.yi on your shore, and that after 1872 he transferred his fishing operation^ wholly to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, where he has entirely kept his ves sels since ; is that a fact or not ? — A. It is, because Mr. Steele's skippers i are more acquainted with gulf fishing than with fishing on oiu' shore, This has always been the case with them; they were always inoreae customed to the bay branch of the fishery than to fishing on oui shore. Q. They knew where to flsii there? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMXIISSION. 2049 MOJJDAY, October 15, 1S77. The Coiifereuce met. The cross-exiuuinatiou of Major Low was resumed. IjV Mr. Diivies : (^)ue.stioii. I notice that in your examination on Friday, you said that the comparison witli reference to Steele's vessels mijjht not be a fair oiie with respect to the bay and shore tisheries, because they had been tiioaged in fishing a longer time in the Bay of St. Lawrence than on the American shore, and I want you to take the statement printed on iiiige 35!IA and make the comparisons for corresponding periods which I will indicate. In the lirst i)lace, if you take the total number of vessels which were lishing in the Bay of St. Lawrence, how many would there l,ef_A. 107. Q. Can you tell me, from that statement, what is the average time each vessel was occupied in lishing.' Divide the total number of vessels into the time so occupied, and give the result. — A. It is l months and lo (lays. {}. Have you it already made up ? — A. Yes ; it is contained in my exiilaimtion of the summary I tiled. (^>. How did you make it up ? — A. I divided the time by the number of vessels. (^>. Try it again, and state the result. — A. It is 4y^/'j mouths, or 1 luoiitlis and 13 days. (I. Bid you embrace the 75 days employed in the fitting out ? — A. Ye;*. (l Take it without this period and see what you make it, giving the actual time consumed from the time when they left Gloucester until tht'V returned ; I make it '3{^ months. — A. Yes ; that is ijt. (^>, Now, <^ake the number of vessels engaged in the American coast lisliery and treat them in the same way, omitting the time employed iu tittiiig out '? — A. It is 2j"j months; I call the total period 5!) months. (^ All of these vessels were mackereling '! — A. One vessel was one (lay there. i}. Having the average time which each vessel was so employed, I want you to take the ca ch which each vessel made, and the receipts I obtained for those mackerel as you have them here ; for instance, what I wax the total gulf catch ? — A. 33,045 barrels. (J. What did these 33,(545 barrels of mactkerel bring? — A. $12 a jairel. Q. And how much would that be iu bulk ?— A. 8103,832.80. <^ How much did each vessel make per month ? — A. $372,343. <}. No; I want to see how much was made per month. — A. It is all [tij;iiied up here in the explanation of the summary on page 300. . You make it $372.00 for each vessel ; then will you do the same hum for the period during the Eeciprocity Treaty i — A. That is done, |tui), from 1858 to 1805 on page 300. Q. But that does not show what each vessel made per month. You wve given what the vessels made per month for the whole period of liiiK', and I want to see what it was during the Reciprocity Treaty. Iliike the gross catch, value it, and divide by the length of time they ['herein the Gulf of St. Lawrence.— A. From 1858 to 18({5, 1 make up |lliMunnber as 00 vessels, and the value of the gross catch, $225,243. Q. Tiiat leaves $3,754 for each vessel?— A. It is $401 13. ^l Voii have misunderstood me. I want to tiud out for the period W!***!?.; u -^ m ' r(^ ^jr if W '-^91 xM r 2650 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. from 1858 to 186.'» what the earuings of each vessel per month were,— A. They were 810,094. Q. Per mouth for each vessel ? — A. For each vessel per raontli tbev were $401.13. Q. Add up the value of the catch for that period. — A. I did not add it up, but I added the vessel's share up. Q. I am not asking you about that. I am taking the table and com paring one statement with another. I am asking yon concerninj; tin- result for each vessel, and I want to see what the vessels' earnings [m month were. — A. But that won't give it. Q. Yes; you either have to pay one-half of what you catch or wages, I do not care whicli ; the value of the gross catch is $ii2."]i.li.J,S, ami tluni- were GO vessels, thus leaving $3,754 for each vessel for the season: and as the average trip was 3j''y months, that would leave 8l.i>0(i pw mouth by my sum. Would this be the case or not i — A. The value ot the gross catch is $225,243.29. Q. And there are (50 vessels ? — A. Yes ; that makes 83,754.55 for each ves.«'^!. Q Yc 'de that by the average number of months, 3,,, .'—A. 1 take iM vvliolr ''me that they were engaged fishintr. Q. ^V'.ai ..J die length of the average trij) in the bay from IS IS to 1805? — A. Eighty-three days was each vessel's average. Q. r '-'\at pe"i<)i1 of time ?— A. From 1B5S to 1805; and this leaves 85)8.80 pel i.,. tth. Q. Yon are wro'.i.i!' y>»r say that you have $3,754 for each trip; now what is the lengtii of I'ime that each season occupied ! — A. 3.8 luoiitlis, Q. Divide $3,754 by 3.8 and you will find that this will leave as dose as possible $1,000 a n'aonth ?— A. It leaves 8998. Q. Xow do exactly the same sum for the same time on the American shore. I only put you these questions because you answered prtnioiisl.v that owing to the difference in the length of time, a fair coiiiparismi , could not be made between the vessels ilsliing on the American shore | and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Will yon kindly read the catclies ami make them up ? — A. The explanation of the summary wiiicli 1 have inadu up shows that the American shore fisheries realized less per montii tliai the bay iisheries. Q. 1 know, but I want to learn the amount exactly. The gulf lisliervl realized 81,000, less 82, per month ; now what do you make tlio grossj catch for the shore fisheries ?— A. $12,713.20. Q. I make it 812,434?— A. You will find that I am right. i^. Tlien the number of the vessels is 12 ? — A. A'es. Q. What will this give for each vessel?— A. 81,059.43. Q. Take the average length of time — the average trip ! — A. Tlievj were engaged in fishing for 19 months. Q. Dividing tlie number of the vessels into the results, what will it| leave you ?-— A. 8023. Q. So that the average catch per month of the vessels em|)loyed iii| the American shore fishery from 1858 to 1805 amounted in value to ^'i-^, while the average catch per month of the vessels engaged in the Gulf o^ St. Lawrence fishery realized 8998 ? — A. Yes. Q. And the average value of the catch of the vessels engaged in tli^ gulf fishing for the same period of time was $998 l — A. Yes. Q. This refers entirely to the table you have put in with regard i Gtiorge Steele's vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. You put in another statement purporting to be a statement shoffj in;' the (litlereu Lanrericc fisher (,». Do you tl iiicnt ? {}. Yes.— A. (}. The coun.s( to tiie siiore ai Ainerioan shore answer was : " " lile this statenH hi'tneen these t ileriieatfi, when ] The iivora^^e catch I and •.'•'' VL'ssi'ls in tl I Those liriiis have doi Q, Was it yoii I two fisheries ? — A Q. Did you iut l.viiitation of the ( [ivcrc the actual c; ^t. I only wan Islioiild draw from lilie relative value l.vears. (}■ JJnt did yoi [know anything all (}. Did you nev( j-A. No; those Wi l(il' vessels which |tlie Anieiican .sho: ^1. How was it |It was because in 'iif iiiCorniation o tiii'^ information U '.'. You do not Imitation of the r tl"«e years. 1 s ll'fiiod in these tw( '.'. Is this result piiiation of the v/. liiit the catches of |S|iPCt. '.'■ Bnt what is i'liir shore fi.shery . ''t'i',v for the two i <.*■ Xow taking , f'M in the Gnlf mmtf to the res li.it it is. i '.'. Then you did 11"^ 'om mission a.' m lisjieries ?_A. 1 [I For those two V' li'it nothing ,_ '^' And this isd: t IS AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2651 %^ iiirf tlie (litt'orence between tbe Americaa shore and the Gulf of St. I,;hvreiic(' fisheries if — A. Yes. Q. ]^o you think that this was a fair statemeut ? — A. A fair state- iiit'iit ? , , Yes.— A. Why not ? Q, Tlio counsel asked you if you had ever niiide up stsitistics rekitive to the shore and gulf fislieries, showinjj the difterenoe between the Amorican shore fishery and the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishery, and your iuiswer was: "Yes; the statement is as follows." Did you intend to ijle tills statement as a fair statement, showing the relative difference between these two fisheries ? — A. 1 explained what J meant right uii- diTiieatli, when I said : The iiveraj;*! catch is basoil on the avenigo catch ()l'"*4 sa'ssuls, from 17 firms, in l-*r)9, 1 awl »"^ vessels in tlio bay, and 62 vessels olf Americau sliore, from 20 lirnis in 1-75. I These liniis bavo done better than the rest. Q. Was it your intention to show the relative catches made in these I two fislieries ? — A, During these two periods; yes. Q. Did you intend tliat these periods should be taken as a fair repre- isHitatioii of the catches usually made in these two fisheries ? — A. Those I were the actual catches made for those years by Gloucester vessels. (^». I only want to know whether you intended that the Commission Jiilionld (haw from this statement the inference that it represented fairly tbe relative values of these two lisheries '/ — A. 1 so intended it for those I years. (}. ]}iit did you so intend it for any other years? — A. No, I do not |tno\T anything about any other years than those in this relation. (). Dili you never make up the catches for any other years save those ? -A. No; those were the only years for which 1 ascertained the number lot vessels which had been fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and off |t!ie Aiiieiiean shore. 'l Il(»w was it that you came to ascertain this for those years .' — A. |lt was boeau.se in l.SOO J was town clerk, and I then ascertained it lor in' inrurniation of the people of Gloucester; and in 187") 1 obtained liis iiiibrmation for Centennial purjjoses. (). Yon do not i)retend to say that it shows anything like a fair rei)re- isiiitatioii of the relative values of the two lisheries .' — A. Xo, save for liDse years. 1 show the number of barrels that was caught in that hitiiod in these two fisheries. (1. Is this result not directly opposite to the result shown by an ex- lation of the catclies of Air. Stcek'.'s vessels .' — A. L do not consider liiit tbe catches of Air. Steele's vessels show a fair criterion in this re- llicct. II. But what is the actual result — you show in this statement tliat iirslioie fishery is very much better than the Crulf of St. L.iwreace liery for the two years 18(59 and 1875 ? — A. Yes. i}. Xow taking the whole number of years that ]Mr. Steele was en- ^iipd in the Gulf of St. Lawrence fisheries, is not the result directly ppijsite to the result you have shown in this statenaent .' — A. 1 know bt it is. ','. Then you did not intend that this statement should be taken by 'onimissiou as a fair representation of the general value of these |fo lisiieries ? — A. Yes, 1 did. nt in to sliow that tlie American sliore fiNliViy is more valuable than the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishery ? — A. Yes. ' (I But this latter statement only compares results for the two years, iSiiKand IS'/.")? — A. Yes. {}. An. Some of these statements were not made uj) for the purposes ot Itbis Tribunal at all, but for the Centennial ? — A. Yes. (». And the motive for their i)reparation had no connection with this iTribnnal .' — A. Y'es — nothing whatever. Q. What did you make them up for? — A. To show that Gloucester, [ill tlie fishing business, was the largest fishing port in the world. Q. And what was your object iu showing this ? — A. It was to adver- [tise tbe place to some extent. Q. What end were you seeking to gain by advert! vsiug this? — A. I haiited to make Gloucester more known, so that we might have a better Imaiket for our fish ; that was tbe idea. Q. And iu order to have a better market for your fish, I suppose you [vrauted to let capitalists kuow what a large business it carried on? — A. I Yes, Q, And you proved it to be the third largest fishing port in the |\foil(lf— A. I think that it so stands first. Q. I suppose you wanted to let people know that you carried on there [a large fishing business which was profitable in a certain sense; you 1 not wish them to understand that it was an unprofitable business? — lA, Of course not. We wanted to show that this was the business of IGldiicester. I did not say, and I would not say, that the business of |Gimu'e.stt'r is unprofitable. (}. You desired to show that the fishing business was the business of IGliiiice.ster i — A. Y'es. Q. And you re-atlirm that here? — A. Yes; that it is the main busi- |it's.soi' Ciloucester. Q. I suppose that this business has resulted iu the building up of Gkiiifcster ? — A. Y'es; to a gn^at extent, of course. [ -^" •■:,f- 2654 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. thus come there, and built and paid taxes, have helped out tbt* valiiH. tioii of Gloucester. Q. When did these rich nu^n come there ? — A. Some of them Imvc been there for 10 or 15 or LM) year.s. (}. Would you like it to jjo on record, as your opinion, that Gloucester owes her prosperity more to the mercantile business, and to otlicr iiKj. dental business, than to the lishinjj l)usiness ? — A. I should not. I con. aider the Ashing business of Gloucester as the main business ot tin- place. Q. And the one to which she chiefly owes her prosperity? — A. Yos, Q. i.oolving up the tiles of the Capo Ann Advertiser, with rctl'iciicf to the Centennial, 1 notice a statement relative to your flsheriv's, audio the ert'ect their prosecution has had on Gloucester, to which I would liki' to call your attention, to see whether you aju'ree with it or nor. It is contained in this paper of date November I'J, 1875, and is as follows; In 1841 the lishory biisincHH of Gloiioestor hiul roixched about its lowest cM). Onlvi uboDt 7,000 barrolii of mackerel werti pacUcd tliat year, and the wlioln iirodiict of r!i.' tisheries of tlie port was only about .•S!;J0U,0()0. in L-jJ.") tlio bnsine.iM bej^aii tii;ii'vivi',tli» Georj^e.s and liay Chal>inr lisliory bi>j;an to bo dovtdopod, and from that tiiiic t(i ilmi year, Ih?."), lias been wteadily increa.sintf, nnt'l at tli(! present time Oloiicestcr's tuiiii,!:;.- is 10,000 tons more tlian Salem, N'ewbnryport, Beverly, and Marbbdiead united. Si-mw- 400 fisliinif-Hcliooners are owned at and litted from the i»(>rt of (iloncester, \iy :!',> iinii.,1 and the annual sales of (isii are said to be between .iiiiSjOOOjOOO and SI,oOU,U(iU, ,i,i distributed from here by Gloueester houses. THK COMMKItCIAL WIIAIIVKS. The wharves once overed with molasses and sugar hogsheads, are now covcreil whjj fish llakes, and the odors of the "sweets of the tropios" have given place to "tbeau-f cient and fish-like smells" of oil and dried cod; the few sailors of the ciiniini'rciall marine have been succeeded by five thousand tishormen drawn from all the in:iiltiii:e| quarters of the globe; and the wharves that were the wonders of our boyliooil (hy are actually swallowed up in the splendid and capacious piers of the lU'esiMit diiy, -Ji much have they been lengthened and widened. THE SALT TRADE. For many years alter the decline of the Surinam tradt;, hardly a largo vessel wai ever seen at Gloucester, and uumy persons thought that nevermore would a iii;i.ii>i:( 8hii» be seen Chteriug this capacious and Hi)lendicl seajiort. But never in tlit^ iialiiiir^l days of Gloucester's foreign trade, were smh immense vessels seen as at tin- |iasiiii day. Shi[is of 1,500 tons (as big as six William and Henry's) sailed iutoGIoiu't'sterli.iri bor from Liverpool and Cadiz, and came in to the wharvo without breaking bulk, aiiif also laid alloat at low water. More than forty ships, barks, brigs, and scIiodiris. from -100 to 1,400 tons, laden with salt alone, have discharged at this port the iiri' Q. Do yon know whether this is the case or not ? — A. I know that the whole valnation ot'the city does include the suburban districts. Q. The article continues: t'ivB banks witli noiirly 8-.*'i*'^""rt <'i»l>it!il i" tliom (iiicliiiliiijj Miiviii^^s) ; lunl tliis in- iTfiisc liiiii ariHun, not troiii t'orui^u cuiiiiiifrcf, but tVoiii thu oiicu tluspisud iiiid iii^ii;iiil'- iciiiit tislifrit'H. It will lit! seen by a review of the history of Gloucester, that a foreign commerce did not bnilil tilt) town up in popnlation or weiiltli ; tliut from l&i't to H.M), its increase tiilk't'ii very small ; l)nt from H.')!* to l-^T'i, it has yrown from "',0(10 to 17,000 inliabit- aiits.iiiul its valuation from :^-i,000,000 to i:5'J,( '00,000! It is the lislierics that have iuainly ciiiisod this grtsat I'han^^o; it is the sinxeis of that branoli (»f industry that lias liiieiiiilimi'i'ster harbor wiih wharvts, warehouses, and packini;-ostal>lislnnents, from I ilici'oi't to "Oakes's Cove." It is the fisheries that Lave built iii» Hocky N'eek and I tiistti'ii Point, and caused ward '.i (Gravid Hill and rrospoet street) to show nearly all lbe"aiii in [io])ulation from 1H70 to I'^T"). Do ,voii think that this picture is overdrawn as to the prosperity of Gloucester or as to the cause to which this prosperity is attributed ' — I A, Well, I think tliat it is a little overdrawn niysolf. Q. You think that a little allowance ought to be made for the centen- [iiialyear ? — A. Yes, I think so, in this respect. Q. Do you think that we should make the same allowance with regard Itotlie papers which you have put in concerning the cost of fitting- out |iiiHl Hshiiig schooners, &C., prepared for the centennial year '? — A, Xo. I think that these are below rather than above the actual estimates ; in Ifactl know that this is the case. Q. Will you kindly tell me what your vessels cost when you were in Itlietisliiiig business? — A. The Cynisca cost $3,730; the C. C. Davies, *:],300: the Auiui, $2,000; the Daniel McPhee, $3,o00; the Ella F. Barflett, $;5,G00 ; the K. H. Oakes, $ i,200 ; and the I. C. Curtis, $(>,500 ; jtbiUis the whole valuation, but I only owned shares in them. Q. That makes an average of $3,830 for etich vessel I — A. Yes. (J. And that is the number of vessels in which you were interested ? — lA, Yes. You have given the valuations and what they cost ? — A. Yes ; what llbey cost. (). This, I suppose, represents about their value ? — A. Yes, at that Itiiiie. Q. Do you not think that there is a very great ditference between the iTiiliie of the vessels actually enya:4ed in the fishery iind the value of the Ifaucy vessels, the cost of which you sent to the Centennial .' — A. Fancy Ivessels ? That was the actual cost of these vessels in 187.5, 'i>. What is the name of a vessel that cost so much ? — x\.. The Victor ; [she cost 8S,S0O. Q. What was her size ? — A. 77 tons. SIOX. ' I i). That Wiis wluMi a dollar cnrrcMicy was worth a dollar in gold, ami the dollar ciunMjry is almost worth that now ; do yon mean to say tli,ii the cost of hnildiu}; vj'sscls now is dearer than it was then ? — A. I dii; and it is a great deal dearer. Q. Why ? — A. I do not know why; but it is due, I think, to tlipm crease*! value of labor anti of material. I know that these do cost ninn. now than they did then. They now cost double as much as tin y ilni then. Q. You stated that you were iiitorosted in S vessels and you liavconlv named 7 ? — A. I oidy litte'o; there does n ptsomeHJiere on ( Q. What school q. Now, you S€ iileon ha it. , Q. Well, hero i lliiirged with 55 bi 1 Q. Would you » Ictiially used ?— a U>. Why?-A. li jkipiters use ver^- 1 Mill skippers an |Q. In other word W?-A. Uecaust le mackerel are ca lewasin liny St. Ws clams, less 4 ba Name Roland. [Q. Madame Kolaii Vutof the account i-A. There is th( llessl barrel clam ptandgot it from U ^Vhat year ?—, Ilarrels from schooi U Well, in that o ^W like to know i IT, II So I presume th Y there was any N on the trip-b ht the end of the JJJ'asMr. Steele J flow are they cl F I saw them oi Hon are sure of ■iliat they are ch Ito'k charges ? A Vht would be ( [-A. What year »»() and 18G7. 'l"i.V half and t l-ves. ]C;iu you give me t I(J7 F AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2667 Liisf— A. I see that Mr. Steele, in makiiif; up \\\» voyr fortlic liiiit UHed, but ban not taken in all tlie bait the^ ra^eH, Iuih ehartfed I for the iDKi' ii^eti, uui HUH iioi uiKun iii iiii iiit^ imii uiey carried. Q. How do you know that ? — A. Don't you see 27 barrels. Q. Just tell me what there is to justify you in suppositi}; that ? — A. hVell, there was 27 barrels used in catching 21!) barrels of mackerel aiTordiiif,' to that. They will be likely to carry more bait than 27 barrels. Q. Hut you find, I uiulerstand, that there is no credit to the stock L|inrgpH ill the books ? — A. 1 don't see any. Q, Yoii can Hnd them? — A. No. y. Now you assume he has only charged the bait actually used. Hut |l want to know this. There is nothing on the face of the book H — A. K'o; there does not appear to be on that book, but I think I have seen [(somewhere on some books. Q. What schooner was that ! — A. The Creorge 8. Loring. Q. Now, you see if you go by that rule A. You cannot go by any ule on l)ait. Q. Well, here is the schooner. She took 220 barrels ; but she is Itbiirged with 55 barrels of bait? — A. I know it. Q. Would you assume from this that he had only charged what was ictiially used ? — A. I should presume so. Q, VVhy ? — A. Uecause, in reganl to using bait some vessels and some [kippers use very much more bait than others. Somi; of the most suc- skippers are most liberal with bait. |Q. hi other words, you just assume that what was thnt* was actually led?— A. Because I see no more, and from my judgimnt of the way fce mackerel are caught. Here is a credit — schooner Uliarles Carroll ; Jewas ill Bay St. Lawrence in 1803 ; debtor 40 barrels slivers, 12 l>ar- jls clams, less 4 barrels slivers and 1 barrel of clams sold to schooner iilaine Roland. Madame Roland is another of his vessels that is in the commence- ptot' the account. Well, we will take a vessel that is going to haul L-A. There is the schooner Austerlitz. She had 8 barrels of clams, ftes 1 barrel clams left." There is another where slie ran sho.t of land got it from another vessel. Here is the schooner Grenada. jQ. What year ? — A. 1803. Eighteen barrels slivers, 0 barrels clams, llMrrelsfrom schooner Altamaha in bay, less 7 barrels bait left. ](i. Well, in that other book we examined underneath your hand, I Hike to know if you could find any in that ? — A. No; 1 don't see i). So I presume there is none left ; either none left or none credited ? — [If there was any left it was taken out of the bait before the bait was lered on the trip-book, because I know the bait is always accounted ht tlie end of the voyage. |l). Was Mr. Steele accustomed to take out licenses ? — A. He was, . How are they charged ? In the trip-books ? — A. I think they are. Ijirak I saw them on the trip-books. YoH are sure of that? — A. I am pretty certain. lanl !■!. That they are charged on the trip-books against the voyage, part stvii^ltek charges ? — A. Yes. jlbat would be then that the owner would pay half and the crew alm^Bj'-A, What year were they ? Ivev^^lSCG and 1807, If they were charged iu that way, the owner I pay half and the crew half? — A, If they are charged iu that ^-yes, cr^^Caa you give me the name of some one vessel that took a license ? — |0T ^1 1G7 F M V fsiim m fi ... '"'M m "i •■■■ '•*tr!tl|*l| J^'- i 2658 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. A. [Refers to the book.] I find a fishing license was charged to the Albambra. Q. I suppose when you made up the statement of charges they were included in the customhouse and port charges you put in f — A. I think they are. They comprise u portion of that. Q. So of course now that they are not payable, they could not be charged for the years they are not payable ? — A. No. Q. Now, in reading this book, " Fisheries of Gloucester," published by Procter, but — before I refer to that, have you been looking iuto the question of salt ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the freight of a hogshead of salt from Liverpool ?— A, I don't know. Q. You can't tell ? — A. No ; because I don't know. Q. On page 75 of this book I find that there were imported in 1870 20,136J hogsheads of Liverpool salt, costing $8,673 ; of Cadiz salt 24,879i hogsheads, valued at $13,910. In 1875 tbo imports were 74,032 hogs- heads of Cadiz salt, and 20,480 of Liverpool, 10,966 of Trepaui, 3,008 Turk's Island, making a total of 108,486. The salt used was 106,245 hogsheads. The value of the salt, as appears there, would be from 45 to 47 cents per hogshead. — A. I don't know anything about that. I kno';v what it sold for. Q. You are speaking of the price of salt as sold out. I am speaking of the value of the salt there. — A. That I don't know anything about. Q. What do you find it sold for — the wholesale prices? — A. I don't know. Q. Now one question. I understood you that in former years the mackerel-fishermen and owners of mackerel -vessels used to insure their vessels in Boston insurance offices? — A. I think they did. Q. But of late years they have found it more profitable to form a mutual company ? — A. Yes. Q. That of course divides the losses among themselves, and they di- j vide the profits, and really these 39 men who own all the fishing vessels j of Gloucester are formed into a mutual insurance company ? If they make $1,000 or $20,000, they get back their money in the shape of divi- dends ; so it is really like paying a duty and getting it back. It is a drawback. Now, have you examined and can you tell me what profits are made by this company? — A. I cannot. Q. You don't know ? — A. I guess the assessments come oftener than the dividends. Q. Do you know so ? — A. Yes. Q. Now I would like to know whether you are speaking at haphazard, because I have a statement under my hand. — A. Well, I haven't beea of late years acquainted with the working of the insurance companies; but when I was in business I know I had to pay assessments. Q. Were you a shareholder ? — A. Yes ; all ownero of vessels are. Q. You have had to pay some calls. Now in this biok, the " Fisheries of Gloucester," on jiage 73, a tabie of losses is given running from 1830 to 1875. There was 333 losses, that is, an average annual loss of seveo vessels for these years. For the past five years the average loss has been greater, but that would be the total number. Now I have gone to the trouble of making up a little sum, and I think there must be a very handsome dividend divided somewhere, if they pay 4 per cent, as yoa j have said. You haven't made a statement yourself ? — A. No ; but yoa [ may rest assured, when I go home, I shall go into this insurance busi- ness and know about it. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2659 By Mr. Whiteway : Q. Have you ever been personally engaged in packing mackerel ? — A. 1 have. Q. Curing fish ? — A. Yes; I have. Q. Are you quite clear there is any salt used in the curing of fish after baving been put into the waterhouse and washed out ? — A. No, sir ; there is none. Q. I thought you were mistaken in your examination on that sub- ject?—A. I stated that there was salt put in before it was waterhawsed. Q. Is there any before it is waterhawsed? — A. There is. Q. Are you clear on that? — A. Yes ; there is about four barrels in a butt, that is, eight quintals. Q. You are quite clear on that? — A.. I am. Q. Now, you gave us a statement of the operations of the Pharsalia on a Grand Bank voyage in 1875. That vessel was out how long ? — A. Three months and eight days. Q. In 1875 ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. You took this from the trip-book? — A. I did. Q. Well, now, what induced you to make the selection of this trip as an illustration of the cost of a vessel using fresh bait and going to the Grand Bank? — A. Because it covered so many ports which she entered, and the different rates charged for ice and bait. Q. Is it not the most expensive trip that is in that book ? — A. I think not. Q. Tarn up the other that is more extensive. See if you can find a more expensive trip than that. What years does that event cover ? — A. 1874, 1875, and a portion of 1876. Q. Now is not this the most expensive trip made by any vessel using fresh bait during these years ? — A. After referring to the book — it may be. From what examination I have made, I think it may be. Q. As far as you have gone, you find it to be the most expensive trip?— A. Yes. Q. Now, in contrast to that, you take the trip of a schooner — Madam Roland— using salt bait, for the year, 1873, is it not ? — A. Yes. Q. She fitted with salt bait?— A. Yes. Q. Now, on the other hand, the result of that trip was particularly prosperous ? — A. No, sir. Q. For that year ? — A. For that year. Q. Have you the trip-book ? — A. Yes, I have. (Reads from memo> [ randum as follows :) Schooner George B. Loring. Trip-book No. 9, page 3'2. Trip to Grand Bank, with salt bait, from June 8th tc {August 30tb, 1874—2 monthB 22 days— $'2,8:{.j.97 net stock. Page 91. From Septein- jberlOth to November 27th, 2 months 17 days, with fresh bait, |1,538.03 net stock. Schooner Everett Steele, Trip-book No. 9, July 21 to September 22nd, 1873. Salt bait, $3,756.25 net stock. Schooner Madam Roland. Book 8, page 342, June 19 to Aug. 14, 1873, 2 months 5 davs, with salt bait stocked, I'Wl.SO net stock. Aug. 26 to Oct. 10, 1873, salt bait, l' month 14 days, stocked ^""107 net stock. fm^^ ■'■i.^'^l'^, m», Q. Now, how do you know that these vessels used fresh bait as well |asaalt?--A. I presume they did ; that bait was caught on the Banks. '•m- 2660 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Didn't these vessels go into any port after leaving Gloucester, and get fresh bait ?— A. No. Q. You are certain of that ? — A. Yes. Q. From what? — A. From the trip-book. Q. Can you rely always on the statements in the trip-book ?--A. I can, because the bait is always charged to stock. Q. You can always rely on the statements made in the trip-book ?— A. Yes. Q. Now, turn to the trip-book of the Knight Templar in IS'dG. Where does it appear that the vessel went in for fresh bait ? — A. She went into Bliss Island. Q. Anywhere else ? — A. No, sir. Q. Does it not say anywhere else ? — A. She went in for ice to St. Pierre. Q. Didn't she get bait ? — A. Yes. Q. Who was the captain of that vessel f — A. Captain Gray, I think. Q. Well, he swears that upon that trip he was into Hermitage Bay and Bliss Island ? — A. Where is Hermitage Bay I Mr. Foster remarks that Captain Gray didn't say that he went into Nova Scotia anywhere for bait, and that " Bliss Island " may be a mis print for Bois Island in Newfoundland. Mr. Whiteway. I only refer to it to show that the trip book cannot be implicitly depende pounds of damaged cod, at one cent, $ll{5.10. Q. Why should there be this damaged codfish ? What is the cause of it ?— A. Well, I have my own opinion of the cause. ((. What do you believe to be the cause ? — A. I believe the cause is going in so much for fresh bait. y. How should that damage the codfish ? — A. My opinion is that the salters salted it with the idea that they would not go in so much; and didn't put so much salt on it. When sho went into port so much, going into the warm water it heated. Now. you find there are damaged fish, as well with salt-bait fishing, as with fresh ?— A. I do find it. Q. And it is upon that one case of damaged fish with fresh bait that j you arrive at this conclusion ? — A. I could not account for it in any I other way. Q. But it is this one case that you drew this conclusion from? — A. Y'es. l^ And you would lead the Commission to believe, then, that fish was liable to be damaged, because of vessels going in for fresh bait, because I of this one vessel on this one cruise? — A. No, I don't now, I have seen I that other case. Q. You withdraw what you said before ? — A. [ withdraw as far as |tbiit is concerned. Q. Have you ever been on the Banks fishing? — A. I haven't. Q. Then, you would not presume to put your opinion in contradiction Itothe opinion of experienced men who had been there six or seven years, I if they testified contrary to you ? — A. No, sirj of course not. E .«r *».f i'f'^ i .iiilli * 'I 'Jilt ; ' Lr«f.# it 4. J iiiii 2662 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. By Mr. Dana : Q. Turning to page 367 of your testimony, you will find the following question and answer: Q. Now, can you give us a similar statement of tbe cost of a vessel for trawliDj; halibut on the Banks, made out in tbe same manner for tbe Centennial ?— A. Yea; [ have it, as follows: Coat of a new schooner at Gloucester, Mass., in 1875, fitted for trawling halibut on the Banh Vessel of 71 tons; cost $8,000. Vessel made nine trips to Western and Grand Banks, being at sea 302 days, with 12 men for crew, at tbe following expense, viz : Trawl-gear 81,023 2.) Vessel's expense account 1,82^ io Provisions, &c l,42fi 0:i General charges, ice, bait, salt, &c l,i:jo oO 5, m t]\ l^ow, whose schooner was that ? — A. Joseph O. Procter's. Q. Now, take the vessel's expense account, $1,825.25; is that taken from P roctor's own account ? — A. Yes, sir ; he gave it to me. Q. It was not anything you made up? — A. No, sir. Q. Now, on page 374 the following questions and answers are re- ported : By Mr. Dana : Q. Now, you have here in this broadside tbe vessel's expense account, $l,82r),2o. Do they call that an expense account ? Is that the way they entitle it on tlie books in making up tbe account ? — A. No; it is all put in one account. All the things fori the vessel are put in one account. These were separated for this special purpose. Q. Now, yon take this expense account, what period of time does it cover ?-A. Three hundred and two days. Q. Now, what are tbe items of the vessel's expense account ? — A. They are as fol- j lows: Vessel, 71 tons ; cost, $8,800. Fitted for trawling halibut. TRAWL-GEAR. Twine .«.")( 8 b.askets 6^ 22 buoys IHWI 20 buckets .... bm 46 files OS^I 1,483 lbs. ground-lines iUM 346 lbs. gauging-lines 410 ''2| 26 knives lJt»j 12 stones 'li 32 staffs 5'iil 360 lbs. buoy-line (i4 i)j 4 doz. brooms 1' •i'l 52 gross hooks lOOJiJl 23 lbs. lobster-twine •'!»§ 5 dories I'M Wl Iron and copper tanks 1 ' 4 shovels 3( Anchors W' Oars and scoops 4* ' vessel's expense. Spun yarn ¥^4] Parceling '-'■'J Leather 1'; Jib banks 1' Nails Jl Tinware, &c *•'' 1 anchor lost ^^ AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2663 V Topmast (broken) $12 00 Paint and painting 90 00 Railway fee 15 00 Rigger 47 00 Blarksmitli 60 00 Cariientcr (i5 00 Sailmakcr's repairs 163 00 Lumber for ice-house 4:5 00 Iiisuranco 539 00 Coinniissions to skipper 4(5.'- 00 40 tons ballast 80 00 Swivel gun 3rt 00 Tarring rigging, &c 14 00 1,823 85 Q. Now many of those are actually consumable during the season, so that at the end of the season what is left is of little account. But there are some items that may last over another year. Now, except in the case of some large permanent expenditures, in making up this account do they charge an article that may last one or two years to the year in which it is bought, or do they undertake to distribute it over the time for which it is likely to last ? — A. No ; it is charged to the vessel at the time it is procured. Q. They don't undertake to distribute such things over the time they would probably be useful ? — A. No. Q. Would it be practicable to do that except where it might be re- quired, as for instance in chancery proceedings ? — A. No. Q. Is that considered as giving a fair result in the end, charging the articles as they are bought, although some of them may outlast the year !— A. That is the way it is usually done. Q. Then you know this to be an actual account furnished by Mr. Proctor? — A. Yes. Q. It is made up according to the usage ? — A. Yes. Q. If you were asked to make an equitable assessment of all these ! charges, for instance, if it was an estate that required to be settled, or if it were required to assign to each year the portion of the expenses j that would strictly fall to the account of that particular year, you would have to make a diflferencei n the case of articles that lasted over this one 1 year?— A. Yes. Q. But that would not be the way the expense account is practically I made up? — A. No. Q. But this is the way they do the business ? — A. Yes. Q. And the statement you presented was the actual statement of the [expenses of that vessel for the year taken ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you ever put in an account of what would be the annual ex- Ipeiiditure, supposing the cost of such articles to be distributed over the jyears during which they would last? — A. No; I have not. Q. Have you since prepared such a statement ? — A. I have ; it is as I follows: jAverage yearly expense of a Gloucester fishing vessel, engaged for nine months in the fisheries, the average life of the vessels being about 14 years. [Paint and painting, twice yearly $150 00 jMariue railway, fees for hauling out 30 00 |lof new suit of sails (have to be renewed once in two years) 300 00 Winary expense for repairs and storage of sails 40 00 I of set standing rigging, $5 for juuk 20 00 It running rigging, yearly (has to be renewed every 2 years) 125 00 liriggers, average yearly cost (overhauling rigging once in 4 years, |75) .... 18 75 li of ('230 fathoms 8i inch cable every 3 years) $450 150 00 M liil IS *1.|: .1** iHTt'^i ill*- M i. 2664 AWAHD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. One anchor average loss yearly ...: $4500 H Q, But the sma I of calking (vessel has to be recalked once in 7 years for$140) $20, additional ^B jjfches you have cost yearly besides, $15 35 i/i H Q. Tasked you Tinware and stoveware.. an oo ■ Were uot the 300 i of cook's stove (renewed once m three years, for $30) 10 (;(^ ^m „^]f ^ of cabin stove (renewed once in three years, for $10) ;; r,,^ ^B ' Lanterns and lanip-cbimneys ti:^) ^m Xow, tbat 01 Stove-funnels, yearly r, 00 ■ of all the ve88( -J5« '^ ■ ^' ■^"*^' ^^^ One-half for gulf fishing, 44 months 47y i;] ■ shore and gulf Then I have the expenses of mackerel-fishing gear for a season of4i H Mje second tH months, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, put on board of a Gloucester I o tiu. . 4 scnooner. ^ only one trip in Expenses of makerel-flshing gear for a season of 4^ months in Gulf of St. Lawrence, put ^M Q* ^OW, on p on board of a Gloucester schooner. Average — ^m call a tisli niercl 5 gross mackerel hooks, at 90c 84 oO H that correct as 7^ doz. mackerel lines, at $1.50 9 3; H Gloucester kno^ 2 cod-fishing lines fitted, $5, less one returned 2 'lO ^M business 12 bbls. block-til , at 50c 0 f>i) ^| n Ti ' i 2 doz. bait-knives, at $1.25 2 50 ■ J ^'""J OUy 1 1 doz, splitting knives, at $1.25 lio H "• i^*> lliey pi 1 clam-chopper, $2 2 00 H packed ? — A. Y 3 nests keelers, at $3 9 iiO H Q, Well thev 1 dozen scrub-brooms, at $3 3 00 ^B fiol, „ ' ^ 1 J dozen buckets 4 .50 ■ !l' ^?* i dozen adzes, $3, less 3 returned, $1.50 1 50 H V- i^neyare hi J dozen flagging-irons, .$3, less 3 returned, $1..'')0 1 'lO ^1 Q. Tbeu Mr. £ 5 pounds flags f()r barr. Is, at 40. cents 2 i«j^| "Does Iip qoII I'li 3jig-mold8,|l.50,lessl returned, 50 cents lOoH u Ra rl.^.! v liiV 2 ladles, $1, worth one-half returned viH 06 coes.'' Wli i dozen bushel-baskets, at $6 '<"^H ^^ ^ ^''*'"' ^^ the 2 bait-boxes, $4, worth half returned 2 11) ^H Q. He "" «i«nals to a\ Q. When was it prepared ? — A. It was prepared before I left home. ^m {) Von Iiai^ Q. What was the tonnage of the Daniel McPhee?— A. About 60 tons, I think. ■h<,i„n ^ "^ Q. You prepared this statement yourself ?-A. Yes. ■, ' "'l"gerous tha Q. From your own books?— A. Yes. . Hri " ^^ ^^^ ff""^'' Q. Will you read the column of catches in which the 17 barrels appeared ?— A. JJ^Huloiicester after th 230, 263jt, 41, 17, 8Ci, 244, 207, 275, 325, 310, 326^, 385, 57. They are shore and gulH Q. ])„ . j"^ .''" mixed. Hne^v of*- it '" Q. Will you lake out the shore ?— A. 57, 86i. , iBusp | t i ^ ^^^ ^ Q. The catches on your shore appear to be small compared with the others f-A^B'""^^ to be the prac The 86i barrels were caught iu five days off our shores. ^^ •m AWAHD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2665 Q, But the Hmall catches appear to have been taken on your shore. The 300 barrel catches you have read were taken in the bay f — A. Not all of them. Q. I asked you to read those which wore caught on your shores. You did read them. Were not the 300 barrel catches taken in the bay ? — A. Yes ; those were caught in the gulf. yow, that one ooluoiQ that Mr. Davies called for is of the first trips of all the vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, does that give a fair indication of the relative value of the shore and gulf flsherie.s? — A. 1 don't think it does. Q. Why not ? — A. Because there was more fishing on the shore on the second trip than on the first. Q. The question was confined to the first trip ? — A. Yes; some made only one trip in the gulf. Q. Now, on page 383, there is a question, " Ls not Mr. Steele what .you call a flsh merchant ?" and the answer is, " He is not a fish buyer." Is that correct as it stands ? What does it mean ? — A. We have men in Gloucester known as buyers aside from the merchants who carry on the business. Q. They buy cargoes when they are brought in ? — A. Yes. Q. Do ihey prepare them for market after they have been salted and packed ? — A. Yes. Q, Well, they are the men that cut them up into strips? — A. Cod- fish, yes. Q. Tliey are buyers of codfish as well as buyers of mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. Then Mr. Steele is not one of those, but sells ? You are asked, "Does he sell his own fish that his vessels iiave caught?" and answer "He does." Wliat do you mean by that answer ? — A. I mean that he sells tliein to the buyers. Q. He does not seutl them to market? — A. No. . Q. So he does not sell his own fish in the sense that lie is a general seller, wholesale and retail, or jobber, but he sells to '* buyers " ? — A. Yes. Q. Ill other words, he is a producer ? — A. Yes. Q. Now on page 182 you are asked and answer as follows : Q. Take vessels fishing off your own coaHt. With res ird to wear atiil tear, don't yon think the wear and tear of vessels tishing off your own coast would Ud more than that of vessi'ls tishing in the gulf during the niouths they fisli tberef — A. I do not. Q. Not in the winter season! — A. We fish on our shores all the your round. Q. Is not the wear and ttsiir greater on your (-oast than in the gulf during tho sum- I nierimmths when they fisli tliere? — A. I should say it was. Q. How did you understand that? — A. I supposed it to allude to the I winter season. Q. Now, comparing your wear and tear on your own coast during Ithesel^ mouths with the wear and tear in the gulf during the same 1 period, which would be the greatest? — A. I should say in the gulf. Q. Wliat advantages are there on our coast apart from its being less I boisterous? — A. Harbors more handy. Q. Anything else? — A. Well, they have more facilities of seeing the [stoim si}>iials to avoid danger. Q, Yon have no doubt that for the same period of time our .shore is \\m dangerous than the gulf. Now in autumn vessels are not permitted |to go to the gulf. Is any vessel permitted to sail for the gulf from iGloucester after the Ist of November? — A. I think not. Q. Do not the insurance companies go round and close up their busi- Iness after the 1st November ? — A. Yes ; that is the general practice. It jiised to be the practice always to close up after the 1st November. *^' ■' ii \l'::,, *i**,:»-'* i;:*^^" im 2666 AWARD OF THE FISHEBT COMMISSION. Q. The vessels then out were allowed to come in ; they had their polj. cies renewed or extended ? — A. Yes. Q. At certain rates?— A. Yes; increased rates. Q. Now, turning to page 384, you are asicod and answer as follows: Q. What would you bo preparod to say to-day is the profit they make oti supplies furnished to the families of fishermen T — A. About ten per cent. Q. Not more than that ? — A. It would not be over that. Q. Yon know that sometimes they lose the supplies T— A. I know they do. Q. And don't they make suffloient profit to cover all that f— A. I don't think thev do. Q. Yon think they are not shrewd enough men to make the charge surtieiuiit to in- sure them against loss ? — A. They might. Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. Well, I mean this, that some might do it. Q. Now, do they in point of fact, do the Gloucester merchants charge interest on the cash they advance to the families of seamen ?— A. I don't think they do. Q. Did you ever know an instance in which it was done ? — A. No, Q. It might be and you not know it, but your opinion is that thev do not?— A. Yes. Q. Why is it that they do not ? Is the period long ? — A. No ; not as a general thing. Q. And do you think they charge any more than the retail prices !- A. They do not. Q. So as far as the families are concerned, the profits are the differ- 1 ence between retail and wholesale ? Now is there any public opinion that bears on that sort of thing ? — A. Yes ; I think if any vessel owner was to take advantage of the families of the crew, he would not get] crews to go for him. Q. The fishermen, of course, find out about it when they get home ?-j A. Yes ; they very soon know. Q. They are not obliged to go for the same owners again ? — A. No. Q. It is for the interest of the owners, where there is so much coin- petition, to treat the men well ? — A. Yes. Q. Now there is another inquiry : Q. Would you put the four leading men in Gloucester down at worth from $20,01)0] to|30,0U0 each? — A. I don't think anybody in the fishing business in Gloacester ij| worth over $30,000. Q. Do you mean to include the money made outside the fishing busij ness? — A. No. Q. Now as to Mr. Steele's property ; it only goes to the valiie of yourj opinion and does not affect your credit, but I want that put right. think you said Mr. Steele's property was taxed at $20,000. Now statd what the assessment is based on according to Massachusetts law. Is iij not on what property would sell at for cash ? — A. Yes. Q. Not sold on credit ? It does not of course mean a forced sale, bull with reasonable notice. Now, you speak of his having nine vessels riinj ning and put them at an average of $5,000 ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, do you think that is a proper sum to put in making iiptli^ account between Mr. Steele and his own vessels ? — A. I do. Q. What do you thiuk those nine vessels or any one of them woull have sold for this year in cash, the sale being made at Gloucester «itlj reasonable time and notice ? Would thev bring anything like $5,000 f- A. No. Q. It would be difftcult to determine ?— A. Yes. Q. The number put on the market affects the price ? — A. Yes. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2667 -iilii Q, Tbe vessels being designed solely for tbo fishing business, would not sell as would otber vessels? — A. No. Q. But suppose Mr. Steele was living and wanted to close up his business, but was in no hurry and could take his own time about it, and could sell them for cash or at credit, and could take them to any port ^here there seemed to be a demand — he might, by taking plenty of tine, exercise skill and judgment, and selling on credits, realize $5,000 each, for tbe vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. In other words, is there any necessary connection between what nine fishing vessels would bring sold for cash on reasonable notice, not forced, and the value which ought to be taken when settling between himself and his vessels as to the result of their voyages? — A. I think there is. Q. Do you wish to alter your estimate that in making up those ac- counts Mr. Steele's vessels should be entered at $5,000 each ?— A. No. Q. You were asked a number of questions in regard to Mr. Steele's taxiible property. His taxable property you first estimated at $20,000. You afterwards thought it would be $25,000, and yon saitl you thought he would be worth $35,000. When you made your first estimate you were asked what the firm was worth. Did you think at the time ot in- cluding any personal property Mr. Steele might have, and real estate, I disconnected with the business ? — A. I did not. Q. Do you wish to change your statement? Are you inclined to put j his property at more than $35,000 ? — A. I think that is really the cash I value. Q, At the same time, you would not alter the mode of making up the I accounts? — A. I think the vessels are worth $5,000 in his business. Q, Those vessels, no doubt, all stand in his name, but do you know I whether he owns the whole of all of them? — A. I don't know. I pre- 1 Slime be does not. Q. Why so ? He is a rich man. — A. Nearly every owner in Hlouces- |ter bas more or less shares of his vessels owned by his skippers. Q. Is it for the interest of the vessel owner that his skipper should [be interested in the ship ? — A. It is generally supposed so. Q. What portion does a skipper generally own in a vessel in cases j where be is not a capitalist? — A. The owner generally gives him one- I fourth. Q. And he pays for it as he can ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether that is a matter of personal trade, or is the Icaptaia's name entered at the custom-house ? — A. There is a bond some- Itinies. Q. A bond between them ? — A. Yes. Sometimes a bill of sale is given |and a mortgage taken back. Q. On page 387 of your evidence there is the following : Q. You have proved him from theory to be bankrupt beyood all redemption, when in to he is a capitalist worth |45,0()0, which exhibits the ditforoiice between the praoti- statement and the theory — A. Yes ; but he had capital when he went into the jDiisiQesB. Q. Did you mean to say that $45,000 was his capital ? — A. I think I |iardl,v answered it in that way ; I might have said it, if it is so recorded. Q. Tbe evidence also reads : _ Q. Do yon state that he brought it in with him? — A. One-half of it was made la pe sail-making business. Q. Then one-half of the capital he now has was made in the sail- iDal^iDg business f — A. I should think so. ;: ill li. ( 4U^-v ml ?fW ""(lit m^m -'i||S*^ '-rr^l 2668 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. And the rest in the fishing basiness during 19 years. You meant to say that he brought into the business the capital he had niudo us a Bailmaker, and added to it from the fishing business during 19 years'- A. Yes. Q. On page 387 of your evidence there is the following : Q. And that shows the values at which he sefctled with his men f — A. Yn , Q. Does it show the actual cn«h price which he received for those 3:J,615 barrels'- A. Yes. Q. Will you explain? — A. Reniemher that this is for the fish and the packiugwliid, he receives when he sells the trip. Explain what that means. — A. When he sells the fish the bant'l is sold with it, so that the packing is included in the sale. In the Itooks it is made up without charging the packing in the value of the lish; ami when he sells it, he sells it with the barrel. Q. And when he settles with his crew the packing is taken out of the j price? — A. Yes; that is customary. Q. On page 388 of your evidence there is the following : Q. Then his expenditure for the Piiarialia was a little below tliu ordinary run ?-A, Yes ; it is below the average. Q. And this item represents the actual expen liture taken from the books ?— A. Yes, Q. Are the items for outfit and expenses put down also from actual expenditure:! 7- j No ; they are estimates. Did you reckon there anything more than barrels packed out iti male- ing your statement for the settlement of the crew? There are more I sea barrels than packed barrels ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the difference — about 10 per cent. ? — A. Yes. Q. If barrel is exchanged for barrel do you make any allowance fori 10 per cent.? — A. I see by ray reply I said they are estimates. Doesj that apply to the Pharsalia ? Mr. Davtes. That question related to the reason why you cliarjjeii) $450, when in the sample statement it only showed $415 as being exj pended. By Mr. Dana : Q. Did you mean to apply that to the Pharsalia ? — A. 1 did not. Q. Have you any alteration to make that would add to the cost witb respect to the barrels? Might not the cost on them and interest on tlieii be very fairly taken off? — A. If I was going to make up the accoiiiii again, I. would make it up more clearly in my own mind by taking on the average cost of running and vessel's gear, and then I would makej a difference between sea and packed barrels. Those barrels had to go| on board, and were part of the outfit, and the increased cost should considered. Then, again, I did not calculate anything tor the barrels the bait was in. The bait was charged in net stock there with the birj rels taken oui — only the bait. As the bait was taken out, the barrel^ could be used for holding mackerel. Q. On page 388 of your evidence you were asked : Q. You charge $8,500 for salt, for as many barrels at $1 a barrel; one-half of it wonlj be profit, and that would leave $4,250 as profit ? — A. Yes. What does that mean ? — A. If I answered " yes," I answered it witU out thought, because there is no such profit as that on a barrel of salj Q. What is about the rate of profit? — A. I should not set down thi profit on a barrel of salt at more than 12^ cents or 25 cents. Q. There are eight bushels to a hogshead ? — A. Yes. Q. A bushel of salt is a struck measure, and does not hold so idiic| as a bushel of other articles ? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MM(S8I0N. 266» Q. The following qnestiotis were put to you by Mr. Davies, on pajje 389 : Q, I flnd from your stntementH that after the Washington Treaty was entered into, Mr. Sieolt) withdrew his vessels from your shore fishery and concentrated all hisetforts ontliebx.v; <>'" I correct in making that statement f— A. In 1870 and 1871 he did not ^11,1 any v».'nhc1s to the Itny. i;, Hut in 1872 he commenced sending them to the bay ! — A. Yes. g. And lie has sent them there i-vor since T — A. Yes. g. And he lias since sent none to Ush on your shore f — A. No. q. Since lS7'i he has sent none to lish on your shore, but has sent all his vessels to tbtbay?-A. Yes. Have you any statement to show how Mr. Steele distributed his ves- sels f 111 1858 how many vessels had he? — A. In 1858 he fttted 8 sfliooiiers. Q. How were they distributed? — A. All 8 schooners .went into the bay, and one went to the shore one day. Q. lu 1859 how many vessels had he? — A. He fitted 10; all went to the buy, and none to the shore. Q, In 18G0 1 — A. Fitted 11 ; 8 to the bay, and three to the shore. Q, 18(51 ?— A. Fitted 11; 7 to the bay, anil 4 to the shore. Q, 1802?— A. Fitted 11 ; 5 went to the bay, 2 to the shore after they returned from the bay. Q. 1803?— A. Fitted 9; 6 went to the bay, 2 to the shore for one iDouth and 24 days, after returning from the bay. Q, 1804 ? — A. Fitted 8; 8 went to the bay, none to the shore. Q. 1805? — A. Fitted 8; 8 went to the bay, none to the shore. Q, 1800 ? — A. Fitted 10 ; 10 went to the bay, none to the shore. Q 1807 ?— A. Fitted 10 ; 9 went to the bay, 1 to the shore for 18 days Iter returning from the bay. Q, 1808 ? — A. Fitted 10 ; 5 went to the bay, the rest went cod-flshing. Q. 1809?— A. Fitted 8; 6 went to the bay, none to the shore. Q. 1870 ? — A. Fitted 7 ; none went to the bay, 5 to the shore. Q. 1871 ? — A. Fitted 6 ; none went to the bay, 3 to the shore. Q. Now comes the first year of the Washington Treaty. How many esselsdid he fit in 1872? — A. 10 vessels; 2 went to the bay and 2 to Ihe shore, and the rest went cod-fishing. Q. 1873 ? — A. Fitted 8 ; 4 went to the bay, none to the shore, and 4 (llisliing. Q, 1874?— A. Fitted 9; 3 went to the bay, the rest went codflshing. Q. 1875 ?— A. Fitted 9 ; 3 went to the bay. [ Q, 1870 ?— A. Fitted 13 ; 5 went to the bay. [Q. Taking all those years together, do you see any striking difference iliaytisbing before and after 1872?— A. I do not. [Q. You find that many years long before the Washington Treaty he not send any vessels shore-fishing. Did he ever do much at shore* Ishiiig?— A. No. Bid he ever go into it fully? — A. No. I don't think he ever nn] a seiner. jQ. Tlierefore he never tried seining on the shore ? — A. No. Q. He did not much enter into the mackerel-fishing on our shores ? — VxNo. |Q. His shore-mackerel business is no test of the general shore-mack- 1 business? — A. No. (. You know that the word chartering sometimes means hiring and Imetimes letting. In speaking of chartering, did you mean to say that Vewere no cases of chartering vessels either in the form of letting 1!" ■5"'° •'•iif wm 11%. %-m '"^^^^ 'm':y^ i :ii! |.i,'i.i»l 4 "l«iil 'II ' M . i"iy';.!*l 2670 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. or hiring vessels for Ashing in Gloucester f — A. There are cases of Iiiring vessels for flshiiig. Q. Who does it? — A. It is generallj' done by outside vessels. Q. Who hires them ? — A. Sometimes a successful skipper will charter a vessel. Q. You mean hire a vessel! — A. Yes. Q. Do Gloucester merchants, who are flttors-ont and producers of tUh, let their vessels ? — A. No. Q. Do they hire vessels? — A. Some do, but it is very seldom done: there are merchants who do not own vessels. Q. The business of hiring vessels does not amount to anything im- portant. Do you mean to say there is no such thing 1 — A. No. Q. What do you think is the average life of a fair fishing- vessel, not an extraordinarily good or unusually bad vessel ? — A. The average life of the vessels owned in Gloucester, in 1876, was 13.34 years. Q. Do you make that out from documents f — A. From an annual pub- lication published by John S. E. Rogers, of Gloucester, Mass. Extract handed in as follows : The years are siven in which 467 of the vessels in the list were built, the balance being boats of which no record is kept of their age. A comparison of them will indj. cate pretty nearly the depressions and prosperity of the fishing businesH during tiie last twenty-flve years. Ihe oldest vessel in the district is the schooner Ma^jnet, of Annist^tiiin, which was built in 18D7; the next oldest is the schouuer Glide, of Maaclies- ter, builtin 1839. The oldest vessel in Gloucester Harbor is the schooner Motoor, built in J 844. Each year since 1844 has furnished one or more of the vessels which i up our list, as follows : Tear, 1876 1875 1874 187a 1872 1871 1870 1869 1868 1867 1866 1865 "^0. Tear. No. Tear. Xo 9'^ 1864 1863 1862.... 1861 1860 1859 1858 1857 1856 5 5 2 1 24 22 16 9 4 1852 13 22 12 13 99 1851 n mw 6 1849 6 1848 2 1847 " 28 30 1846 4 1845 1 1844 1 1H39 1 35 1855 5 35 14 1854 1853 5 13 1837 I Q. Do you 8upi)ose it to be correct on that point? — A. Yes; for tlie| compiler is very accurate in getting up statistics. Q. That is the average age of vessels existing at the time ?— A. Yes,] I may explain that this book gives the year each vessel was built aD(l| the number of vessels built iu each year down to 1876. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Do you mean that the average life of a vessel would )e abum years ? — A. 1 think so. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. Do you mean that it is as long as the vessels n go a trip?— .U Of the vessels in the fishing business, owned in Gloucester, ue average] age was a trifle under 14 years. By Mr. Dana : Q. When a vessel is brought into Gloucester, not new, do the table show where she was built ? — A. The table shows the year when aDd where built. I Q. Some vessels are pretty old ? — A. One vessel in the table was bail! in 1837. AWARD OF THR FISHERY COMMISSION. 2671 Q, You have said that Mr. Steele never did any seining on the Amer- ican shore ? — A. I don't think he ever did. Q. Seining has come into general vogue, has it not ? — \. Yes. Mr. Davies. The years I tooic were tlie years of the Keciprocity Treaty \rheii tbere was n«) seining. By Mr. Dana : Q. As to insurance. Those merchants of (lioucester wlio own vessels form a company ; that is really a sort of annual company ? — A. A com* paiiy formed every year. Q. It closes up every year 1 — A. Yes. Q. The day it exinres is 1st November ? — A. They have now organ- I 'm\ it to continue the year round. Q, But there is a new company once a year ? — A. Yes. {}, All matters are closed up each year ? — A. Yes. Q. It' the vessel do not return by a certain date a sum is placed in the I sasitense account f — A. Yes. Q. They don't actually pay premiums and receive dividends ? — A. No. Q. They give their notes, ami at the end of the year there is an as- jsessraeiit i — A. They are assessed from time to time. Q. And at the end of the year, if necessary, there is an assessment ? — I A. There is a tinal assessment. Q. There is no dividend paid ? — A. No. Q. The crew have nothing to do with insurances ? — A. No. Q. Do you know how the owner is able to as.sigu to each vessel the lamoaiit it ought to pay ? — A. Each vessel is charged with the amount or insurance paid out during the year to the company. Q. It is divided among different owners ? — A. Each vessel is put in at lacertaiu valuation, according to her age; the insurance amounts to so Imiicb, and each owner is charged with the insurance on that vessel. Q. They don't actually pay out that insurance, do they ? — A. Yes ; if Ktis not paid out in one season it is in another. They give their notes, )ail when there is an assessment on the insurance they pay the amount. Q. They are not charged on an ordinary note ? — A. They give a pre- liuiii note. By Mr. Davies : Q. If there is no assessment made, the premium note, I suppose, is re- lamed to bim ? — A. I presume so. Q. You have stated that the average age of fishing- vessels sailing out Y Gloucester is fourteen years ? — A. Yes. Q. Some of the vessels are, I suppose, twenty-five years old ? — A. ff : some more than that. I II. One nearly forty years old ? — A. Yes. j Q. 1 see by this book that 22 vessels were built in 1876 ! — A. Yes. [Q. 6^ in 1875 ; 22 in 1874 ; 12 in 1873 ; 13 in 1872 ; 24 in 1860 ; 24 in iiO; 18 in 1858 ; 90 vessels were built previous to 1858, and would be (from 19 years old to 40 years? — A. Yes. I Q. In regard to packing; in the statement you made up of Mr. B«ele's vessels you told me you took the prices of his mackerel from le books?— A. Yes. IQ. This St Mtnent you made up representing the voyages of 107 of |r. Steele's \es.sel8 does not include packing? — A. No. iQ. You were asked a question about Mr. Steele's capital, and you Vd about one-half had been made by him in the sail-making business, ^i the other half since. Do you really know as a matter of fact what Steele'.- apital is?— A. I do not. r*'-*"^' ;#**:'■ !ii! f'^'-'Wl ' *■ , "• j^ VA^'-V -.;. -»-- r,^ i.-«,-M-'-B... "i^^m^i.^-::^ ■%"#^^' ^'^1 I ml 2672 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. It may be, for any thing you know, $70,000, $80,000, or $00,000! — A. It nijiy be. Q. You have no means ot knowing what is his capital ? — A. I have no nieans of knowing. Q. You really don't know what Mr. Steele's capital is, and you have no nieniiH of knowing f — A. I do not. When you asked me that «|uestion previously 1 was entirely unprepared, and I gave you an estimated value. Q. You now say you really don't know what his capital isT — A. I do not; only frc ii my judg nent, and from the common estimation of his valuation in the city. 1 never went to the assessor's books to see wiiat his property was valued at. Q. There is one answer which struck me as a little curious. In repiv to a question by Mr. Dana you said the wear arul tear of a vj^ssel on your coast is less than the wear and tear of a vessel in Bay St. Law rence? — A. I think so, Q. The reason von gave was because their harbors were so handy ?-. A. Yes. Q. Is it not in evidence before this Commission that the general lish- ing is from 1,'5 to 100 miles olT your coast? — A. I have referred to tlie shore nuujkerel-fieet and the bay mackere'ileet in my estimate. Q. Does not the American tleet fishing for mackerel off your shores fish from 15 to 100 miles offshore? — A. Yes. Q. Is not Georges Hank one of tha places where they fish ? — A. Some times, but very seldom there. Q. It is a very dangerous place? — A. Yes; in the winter season. Q. Don't you know that the vessels Ashing for mackerel in l!ay8t, Lawrence fish within />(), 40, or 20 miles of the shore? — A. That may lie. Q. Therefore your reason cannut be ( arrect, wheii your vessels lishiiij,' oft" your coast, are lurther away from the harbors than vessels in tlic bay ? — A. Oft' the New England coast thore is more sea-room. You know that in Massachusetts Bay they have plenty of sea-room, while iu the gulf they have not. Q. Do you mean to contend that the wear and tear of a vessel fishing oft" the American coast in November is not greater than the wear and tear of a vessel fishing in the Bay St. Lawrence in August?— A. Of j course not ; it is not a parallel case. Q. You mean only during the months they fish in the bay ? — A. Audi the same months on our shore. Q. But the months they fish oft' your shores when they cannot tisbonj our shores, the wear and tear is greater than during the fishiiif^- nioiitlis iu the gulf? — A. For sails and rigging the wear and tear in the g^'f ''j just as much as fishing on our shores. Q. How cau that be? — A. Because in the gulf you are using sails all] the time. Q, Take a vessel fishing mackerel in November off your coast, is not the wear and tear of that vessel much greater than that of a luackerel-j fishing vessel in the bay in August ? — A. I believe there was a severe gale down your coast in August. Q. Take July ? — A. Oft' our coast in Novembef 1 should say it wa^ decidedly rougher. Q. Should you say that the wear and tear of a vessel was dctitledlj greater on your coast ? — A. I should say it was somewhat greater. Q. You are not a practical fisherman now and have not been so foi great many years? — A. No. Q. You have no practical interest in ascertaining the prices.'— A. No [foyages of Mr. 8u ' «o»'tl .you Vl- tuerefore, if „ Kjnake up the sta n Tlie \'aii,e of t ^"otpo-ssess pric, J' f'e second Stat p-^"d that estii ' 168 p AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2673 Q. Since you were here on Friday yoii have made up a statement dif- fering; somewhat in priii(;ii>le and also in Hornc of its details from that tJu submitted on Friday?— A. Yes. ' Q, From whom did you get tlie statement that the fisliing gear of a vessel cost about $45 ? — A. 1 made it up from my own idea of the things, and wlitu I sat down and enumerate years past. I Q. What does this statement purport to be; is it the average of a Rmmber of years? — A. It is an average of 17 years on which the i(T ■voyages of Mr. Steele's vessels were based. imH *^' ^ thought itexj)lained the mackerel fishe.y at the present time? — ■ Q, llave you got a price list for each of the seventeen years the ,jii[Bricesof which Mr. Wonson gave you ? — A. No. ■ (^ lie guessed the average price for seventeen years of each of those QjjBnicles. or was it arrived at by a comparison of actual figures ? — A. I jlijBuen- the prices of those articles, according to my recollection, in 18G(), If igBsfil, and 18G2. I compared the prices of those years with the prices Hon, to get at my estimate. sallH'^' ^ speak in regard to your conversation with Mr. Wonson. Did he Huieuiber the prices of each of the articles during the seventeen iiiolH'"'^'—^- Of course not. erel-H'^ ^^^' could you? — A. Of course not. jverH^'i' Therefore, if neither of you could recollect the prices, how could Hill make up the statement ? — A. 1 made it up according to the best of : waHliwlgnicnt. ■^i'. The value of that would consist in the means of knowing. Y'^oii iledlH''''o^ possess price-lists for each year to ascertain the amount? — A. ' for H^- ^''<^ second statement is $20 over the former statement ? — A. Yes. HQ' And that estimate was submitted to the Centennial Commis- \:sM 1C8F -riilil ,"■'''■• il \,^::j 2674 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. sion ? — A. $50 for a seiner, not for a gulf fisherman. Mackerel liuoi, were an expense, and 1 did not take any account of tbem in tbe seinw Q. If you put balf a dozen adze on board, will they not be any gooj at tbe end of tbe season i — A. Yes, but they would not be worth so much, and they would not all come back. Q. This statement is made up to the best of your judgment ? — A. Yes, I think you will find the facts warrant me in saying that it is fur below the cost of those articles dining seventeen years. Q. It is fourteen years since you have been engaged in the business !- A. I know that the prices since 1 left the business have been a great deal higher. Q. You cannot pretend to claim for your evidence on this point tWj same value as that of a practical man in business '/ — A. Of course not, Q. Y^>u would not have known how to malce up the statement except! for Mr. Wonson ? — A. I would, except the prices. (J. You could not get the prices without Mr. AVonson ? — A. I couM get tile prices today. 1 had the prices for ISOO, 18G1, aud 1«Ul* iumy] mind. Q. Those i>rices would not give you the average for seventeeDl years ? — A. It would give the commencement. Q. What was the price of buckets in 1872'? — A. 25 cents ai)io('o. Q. You put them down in the statement at $3 a dozen ? — A. Yes. ii. This other statement you have made up is also different fiomtliel one you had put in? — A. Yes. Q. Why did you make it different ? — A. Because that is the actiiai| amount. Q. Tiie expenditure on what vessel does it represent ? — A. It repiej seuts any vessel. Q. It is not an actual representation of any given vessel ?— A, Oj course not. Q. It is a supposititious statement? — A. Ton may call it .so. Q. I want to know whether you submit that to the Commission ;i> Statement of actual expenditure incurred on a given vessel, or as a siiiij posititious statement? — A. Kot for any given vessel, but I submit it; being, if anything, below the actual expenditure for any vessel nmiiifl^ out of Gloucester. Q. What you suppose to be below ? — A. I think it is. Q. Y'^ou don't pretend to submit it as having been copied out of i\\\ accounts of any vessel ? — A. No ; it cannot be doue. Q. It was not taken from any given vessel ? — A. Xo. Q. Nor from any practical man's accounts ? — A. No. Q. It was made up out of your own head ? — A. Yes, the same as iin| one estimating would make it up. Q. The vessel's expense account which you submitted, you expliiiia you know nothing about, but that it was handed iu by you from ^ Procter ? — A. That is all. I know nothing about it. Q. Mr. Procter was examined here i — A. Yes. By Mr. White way : Q. Turn to page 375 of your evidence, aud you will find the folloffiij under the head of liecapitulatioa : Trawl gear $l,"-3j Vessel's expense account !• '-J Provisions, &c ^'^'!-\ General charges ll'^'i Total cost of I'll lining -i By Mr. Da Q. I understood A. After I had pr Ispent almost as mt. They agrees % Hon. Ml (}. In regard to 1 of lisb taken is not iiise(I.'-A. No. S( N set 20 barrels c I Q. So it need exc mh a small catch AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2675 Do I understand that is the exact annual charge of a vessel during 302 (lavs she was running ? — A. I do. Q. Under the miscellaneous charges, amounting to $1,135.50, there is an item, 200 tons ice, $000. Do you mean to say that a vessel engaged lisliiug will use 200 tons ice in 302 days 1 — A. Yes. Q. Can you show me in your trip-book any such cases? Turn up the riiarsalia. — A. That was a Grand Bank trip after Grand Bank codfish. This is a trip after fresh halibut. The cases are not parallel. Q. Take a freshflsh trawler and show me a consumption of 200 tons of iceia 302 days. — A. Here are the items for the schooner Marathon : 25 tousof ice, April to May, 1874; 23 tons, May G to June 14; 28 tons, June 22 to July 31 ; 30 tons, August 4 to September 12 ; 15 tons, De- cember and January ; total, 131 tons. Probably there are other vessels that had more. Q. Tliat is the highest quantity you can find ? — A. ^o doubt I can find a parallel case to that in the statement, because it is common. It depends on how successful the vessel is in taking fish as to how much ice is used. It is not an extraordinary occurrence to use 200 tons of ice j a year. By Mr. Davies : Q. I understood you to say that the abstracts you put in are correct? — 1 A, After I had prepared the abstracts, to make sure they were correct [speut almost as much time in verifying them as I had iu making them lout. They agree within four cents. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. In regard to bait used in mackerel-fishing ; I suppose the quantity lof tisli taken is not generally an exact indication of the quantity of bait jused!— A. No. Sometimes they will throw 50 or 75 barrels of bait and Inot get 20 barrels of mackerel. Q, So it need excite no wonder that a good deal of bait had been used livitli a small catch ? — A. No. l!!i:!!l^''?: !»,>.* i^i.-^ wmm: 2676 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. a a n t" C-» I- OT ^ '* » 11^ S O 'X 30 «£ G3 O 00 O 1 * rr — * V" rT sT 1-^ f*' l.)()J8 8B0.IQ •!)H3nBo sio.uwq jo 'oji 'paioidtna 9niix V X 'O rt M TI l.-i X M »ft O M C* X '^ *>o X •*»■ 7* X X X r; - © 'C 71 - •5(0018 ^on ii^q ! -oao .10 'd.iuqw e^iaHSv^A I irt 1^ X r; -- 4ft t- Cr h- V 1— ^ © o Si -r ^ 23 2 I^ rt © '■A 7» *-- ■ 7» i' n *- « r; ^ 2'p in 71 rt irt f^o ©'J';;) If* *fci jLi © t- © i-©c^ t' •* r- s 'r^iiie ! tb « ^ S3 I X « r. I- -< ' tc 0* X X X • -.c -^ n -^ o •8ni[!BB JO oitijl tnoij 'iiJA'oiiIn9 9m!X 4g}2i"; ?«7ir^i7»^©tT' £«-vr^*li-t7»7IC ■ 31 tift M — ©I-- 1 =; X I- © X c '?|.->018 I BeoaSjo'iiJ^ifjjogniUA | C. i- t^ -^ i.*: 7» gj -r ^i9eui .nno '9,IBq8 8,]9883A .10 '3130J8 %3U JO JlBq-9nO "x o ac>- C ■WO! ts in — — "OJ-* ino X -^1 -*Cir».f •.© I* -.O 0» 'T — O* — « c; in I- Vfn"?r»-r r- • ■ r- f M X x • CI ^ M w »n s '©7ixc5'^5ir^7»©f^i'xxi-©xr5X • , 71 1- © © X 71 © I* i*: 7# © r; m ■* i7 7* o m '■ ©©r-'r'V^'v©'^«OM©'V©©©© •qo^ttojo eniuA JO *>ioo:jtf Bso.if) •po\'o[dui9 om|i 'SnilJHB JO OUHJ lUO.IJ ). © X '•: 7* ci r. © jj © I.- ^ I- — r5 ^ 3 w ©i--xci'*©--7i5i©^tt-©xr^^ior-i-- I-- 7t X X r- ^ — t "*■ i— © ^ r ~ — - — — ^©©©©•tpr -— - 1 1' td . xH > in 2g S! A,qBU 5jjoi)|)Bi[piii!i)(i3 •BI^MBflA JO Off i- X C-. ^J X CT. X 'U -. w O X O O 1- i>5 --ej xxxxX xx.xxxaoxxat'Xxxxx C i J •. i X = H *« Sit-: 5 £*="" »S. -i ? -f J '9JB[fl •qajBD JO a •JilSnoD B| •.iBq JO jgqn •Xjgqsg [( •JIOBuiajoqBn •3(30) I '■"« JO Jieq-aa 'i()JBD JO 9aBq 9.tt9J0JO8,[986 •qajBO JO 9n[t ■jno pajjoBd pai!}q8nB08[aa •J«q JO Jaqtuui •-fj9 W I9j93(aBni 93aaj.n87 "JS i» mo Uf otnij ■9niB8 9,A19J0 .' 310048 jea joj[Bq.9ao JO '9aBqs 8,19889.^ ■ijama JO onpjA ■w 3iao|8 Bsoay I StiiqBginqrnjq |)«B P09 UI 9tnjj. I::,t ! AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSIOK. 2677 •qojBO JO an IB A s ir. s •jqSnoo s[j.i -.iBq JO aaqmuii S! ■Xjgqsg [ajo ■iiovui ajoqe hbo 1 ^ 1 n n •310018 isn JO jiBq-aao •i|.>iBO JO ejBqs e,AlJJ0J08.[9883A «» g 2, 528 16 3, 597 59 3, 443 92 1, 653 05 970 55 s S •qD)«o JO aniMA 12, 690 50 2, 245 67 5, 339 69 8,3H4 78 7, 256 61 3, 831 26 2, 822 09 •jno pa;iOB(I paB)q8nBa8[aj •j«q JO Jaqmuf^ Si2 (Nil OO J; OS ^ *^ TO o « o ei e» O •Sm •qHB (9j9}i3Bai asosjAiBi "JS JO jino ui 9U1IX |a" o — goon 1" n CO CO ^ ^^ ?5 CO e 1H ■eniBS S.AVajO 1 3130J8 190 JO j(Bq-3ao 10 'ajBqs 8,ia8B3A 1994 55 243 92 637 47 738 20 2, 470 28 2, 105 38 1, 608 96 3,041 65 1,907 00 1, 384 98 880 96 . -qDjna jo eni«A JO 3100J8 880JO 12, 214 39 2. 746 33 1, 978 05 1, 797 80 5, 529 07 4,536 60 3, 412 62 6, 420 27 4,354 17 3, 118 51 1, 932 30 1-^ CD ■ginqsmnqjiBq puB poa UI auijx § I""-''""" S 1 W i 1 f iJll..!.!!.r?lr';-i '!'.if 2678 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. S s 00 S5 hi a a .a -a ^ a a r'. a n o qo tJD ■3 Lh o -310BHI iliOllB U«3 •uatuv ut aniix li i-r- 1^ 1* 1 : niN >n •9mU8t)tH8,AiO.I,l ! OaBI[8 B.IOBSOA CI t^ i ■qojBO JO on\v\ CI CO J?Bq JO BlOJJBa 1 f2 •3ni ■il9{f-is.i95ia«ni JO }\i\Q nt ouiji 3^ M t- 1 Ci « o o ^ 1^ •oniBBaqjs.Ava.iD i OaUllB B,I0BB9J^ ?737 75 1,313 27 1, 1.53 35 596 53 o CI o o X! CO* •qOJBD JO 91HBA s g LI X •Smqsri inqn"'! poB poj ni9ru;x § 1-1 1 3 G ;l z s 1 ■^ •O.IBq8 B.IOBBI .; I -imi JO .loqmiij = I -Stii ; I 'oaii.n.ttB'i 'JS ■qajBD JO otije^ h 2 ''''"iT'if JnqiiBq I ■ ; pnu poj III auiix AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2679 11 i o •O.lBtlS S.tOBSO^ IS % O — -- CI sfif i 1.-. XCl I •q,HB3 JO oiiiBA 1^ i Ci ^jO -T Si « L-^ 7» CO §?§ = o to" — XI- i 'i ■jBq JO .laquiiiil "•» ;t2 s o sS2 1 •8in •ijsrj-ia.TnJi.mm 'aOIM.I.MB'I 'ig jojinoniouwx ■?iao}s ion 'eaBiis B.ioBBOA 00 ^SSSS i'" 1^ ,§2- •o t s 5 5 5 :» '^J' M (N T 5! ^ M (Jl r-4 i - s J 1; O 5> = C 1- irt M r; TO ir: » r. •w C. 1- .S rH ?5 o r; o — ■^ t-^ '-C I- •HDIBO JO OtllBA s 6 ?^ X (- r c t^ ir: ».- -- f ,TD (T -^i (« >"»• I.-V o ■*I>if3 ro W^!O0[ ' 3 o QOAi<*a) tooiinn n to op to I- M -o 51 IQ lO -< » ^ no nminm ntas>ao >^ ^ ^ 1 o H IfttO f- CD «s2tc to 00 00 Hin 99n9JJH AWARD OP 'JHE FISHEBY COMMISSION. 2681 '1< •0M^» i.iaasa^ •qajBo JO aniBA '(ejsitatiai •3iOq8 J0')q8llBJ BI9JJ1){{ ■Saiqfiff'pjaiiovni eioqs iiuauaiuy a) auiix ■9J«q8 B,I3B8SA S •qojBO JO oniB^ !5 H ! 1^ « s sg.a "mlnVO 19.19 ■3138111 ,, iS«q „ JO 8[9Ue(I ■Slin9J9 ■]I»nca 90n9JM.Bi 'tg jo J [no ui p9iL0[dni9 aiuix •oralis 9qt I,iiej3 taiBqS 8J9889A •qojBO JO oni«^ '^laqet; tnqijBq ptra poD nj p9A'o|d(U9 srajx th i-isfi-Te^'ei' §« 00 5> ^ irj O O) Cl Oi (O a a " 58 S " "^ 2* 1-1 ci CI fi 1^ ^trt ^ r- *■•»« ng 5B 2 '^ '^* 3 66 en 00 tc eg a a i •ipiiiD JO onin^ ! 'i •liianwa 13,19 ■Tjovm ,, 9.iuiiii ,, 8iojjn({ -*• 9J0I18 iiuaijamy u] aiujx ?. ?: 1 B,Jli9J3 ! OaUHH «,[98B0^ 6971 42 1,153 S3 753 71 ef •qojuD JO oniBA 3; g 5 g g 2 C-. t- y. ■JiaBtn ,,Awi „ JO Biojj^ji H« H« .«« s ii S 1 •sduj p.MJiavrn odiisj -Aiu-I'lSjojinoniouiix One trip. 3 15 Two trips. 4 a .1" A'- irt o 1-4 ■om«B ain 8,A0J3 iOJBIlS B,[0BB9A 11,120 21 1,297 15 834 93 1, 043 77 2, 579 52 1,2!»9 38 oT •qojBO JO OHIBA S 9 PSSIS o r- f -- ■^•r ^ of ^sfuiof II poo u} yoAoidiuo Btuix i i; G 4{2gSS 1M ^ a w 1 at i n^^ 1 > ■OJBIJS 8,[a»8,( •Snii[»[j.if),i(i ■T\W.UI 9.1()l(^ una •!iom\r ii( 9(Ujx •9JBI|S 8.[,1SB0A. ■q3)M JoaniBA. I j ^ .l.lllil.lAUll •'JS,< ; i jojinonjoti'ifx 1 j •; j •o.mqg B.iossaA 13)B0 JO OIIIBA i '.f.ioiisrj inqjiBti [jnii i)(M HI auijx . r ffl AWARD OF THE FISHERY nOMMISSIOX. 2683 1 ! i 1 ■o.nti[s (i,ji>tii),i^^ i 'fi i ■iID)B3 JO onn»;^ ST. V. : sf ; ■XJ 1 ■ami JO aaj £« ^i S oi^niii 9,i()i|>) una •uomv "I 91U1X 1 ••^i! 1- 1 » 1 91 I"! 1 >x 1 •eaciis 8.iosjoj\^ •r 40 ^ ^ft -< '^ «" si n V, •qDjBD JO eniBA « O 11 I'- -^ Jl -i- 6 c -N 5 X r; TD o 3 -1 j; ; 3 •H -t" p- ?l -^ %0 M •^ J III ifi r: — i!% i*; i.t -^ 14 S *?.^2 1 'it ■; r 5 -^ ri *- t£ xj •T[«(i-i.i.WTiai!ni I (^ .£< CI 2" QO M ** lO *r "T M CI ^ u s - i I •B.lBqS 9,18KS0^\ — TU — ^ r> o S2 s; S=S.'5 0" 1. : ■I1D)B,T JO OllIVA 0 51 imu iu)j til auijx c. t- ro ev sit- to « I-( Fl -< •«• 11 n « M o s |S ? 1 i 1 i i i S X ■k 1-^ ^ ^ a s a o ■3 4 "9 a Pi Tit- 's 2> egg « .2 g 'H 1; !iH»-*I ;|i.hiil!l.!J!l#^-5«r ■;;? "''if 2684 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. <^ a I a a K a ■aiBii« a,|(Mia;^ ■q!n«ojo9n{«A s 2 S ■1VI\ JO JO(llUUK •qog [a.i.)]io«ia ajoqii II «3 •|jaiuv o) 9ai|x J ^ i^gi ■ajiiq* 8,|aM9^ 9 ?ii-K« nn SSloS et ta inSoto So MoSis at ■i(3}«ojo anpA '!)q8a«3 8(91 -jQq JO jaquinx o o 71 *; o5 r» « oi 7» » 5 ^ erT M*" V ©f ©f to' to" • !-• QD Xl .» OD 00 00 •qajBojo onp •ln8nHa8[0j ■,i«q JO Jaqiiui •i|ii(j [o,i3)io«m 1. g |90II,UA\«7 'IS - |.(« JI"'J uiouii 9 •0JUq8 8,10880 ■qDJiio }0 oiiit!^ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2C85 'Ojuq* i,(dM«a^\ •qaiitajoai'inj^ •.Cm .) .1 II I{ R II II .1 ■Ijoiiiy U] uiiiix ^ <§ 1 •luoqs ■,in««i»A f u 3 1 a a HDjBO jo oniBA .v3 g •lUflnMO 81.1 J • mil JO aocimii}! ? t a 2 •t(sn loaonowiu 90II.>.l.tt«1 -IS JO jiii'j ui oiuix 00 .SI 1> a 5 ■ujuqs o.iasBOA r •qajuo }0 onjBA luiB \ioa ui .mux 1 — o s i CD I a S •a i nil - at S 9 5; " S g ^ 5 00 in Cl c- :;- m 1 i 5 at a 55 G a «? ■B a a ,« '^ m a >« o § c«i s i 3 ! 2 9 i ft! , • ■ til •-'IT r ' I 'iim.^ ii ■CLl I i :fi: %^\ ■v* •« ;''«4 < 1^ :l'i i'l • •■'**; il.-. . "•' •».. I ' i> „ ■■•<» m^K 2686 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION ^.^:■^ mn "■^"tii*** ffil'^^' ' ^^ ^R Hwf'li :. R?!";, 1 ^ I 00 u U O '^ O v o J 3 tr .- cS C ^ _ >wl o !_' -*-^ «j i" ^" {:: rt P! o '— O *-i 'z c ^ It f— P c c u «0 a — o c fc. Ci o tf: r- « ^ •9.1«HS 8,^aj3 .lu [isaoA X I : : : :i:- T) •tl,)}Bajooii[i;A ■XJ ■ 2i : 1 ; I ii- : : : i^l : : : jci 71" '}I(7tUB3 8I0I •JBq JO aoqiuriK S i * t > 1 1-4 • ! * ! 71 Si •Sni ■iIBg jo,t93jauiu 0 .1 0 if s n u D i ^ g! i i : ; is? 10 1 i i I 1H (?! ■OaRllS K,.\V9,ia ,10 oaBiiB K.jjKiiiajV CI -^ 'J c; 1.7 -w re X r: i " cc 117 -^ — T 0 X r7 CI 0 i- ir. X -c-r cKc « T .-c •-4 ' •non!.) JO .in[UA CI X — -jr c; I - CI c. r7 « t i- 7I-.C L 71 17 >.7 — C X 71 =7 17 i- " V. i- 71 — ^ 1-1' rn' cc ic' i - uV c r rf r7* 1 •)ilSriii3 ep.i ' -jDii JO aoqmiiv^ 1 « r-l 0 X 7f -C C» CV 51 C^ 1.-J •Siii ■\\v\\ ja.}o>i.nMU <5 ; S 'ti.iiia.iiH!'! ^S jjo jiuo ai diuix 1 ^■■s ei-' n St V ■vf at n S 1 ; •JlOOIS 1 ion JO jiuii-juo J : damns' K,id880A 1 1 — 0 71 r. n CI 17 71 X ■^ '.r f- -f 0 0 117 1.7 -r r- i' r* r: 7., 71 ^ x ?: -^ r- ^ . 7 r. r: 1- — n- n- 0 re CI ic r: ri 01 ^7 7. x 17 c> X -T CI — CI — C-. -?• r7 t-: 0 0 — ' 7* CI X = .- c: X r7 0 t^ r-"- -- V- = 1- ^ ,n ''''r<"crci'rf ce'sf 71 rT'w c*7 ;:i V r7'cf cf 1 'jj.ioja SR0.1S ! U(Oiua JO Jii|«A X c» CI ic 0 C-. CI CI C; X :c i.7 *- cc cc t - C T i- re 'T l- CI 71 X tC 71 T -^ T X ^ -r — c>or7 xo»-^o;-:t'^-r-^*f cr^o — 1.7— (.0— '1.7 1- — c^— 'C: C^ -V-C i - C: 0 T C: 71 l7 f 4.7 O ■.= X 1- ^ 7* 'f* LT)' t- 1-' V w* C-' r-* r-' « cT x ^*" l-j i i ■iiujiisii iiiH!HM[ 1 c cv c; 71 c; X) 27 cr. tc ci ic cc 71 — 30 'i* 0 pUB poo UJ dlUIX 1 » *ft X «5 l-C T,- ^r 1.7 1-7 t- X C. C. CI 0 t - 0 1 c 2 T S *^ 'x im tH r^ iiik 1 X 5 -r X 3 AWA •8aBi(s s.i.issaA •i[a}»,-j (() eni[VA ■}i|3iii:a Biai .IB(1 JO aitqui!l_\-; I •A'.ia ■qsij [a.iasiaum .1 J o q 8 u « 0 ■[.lauiv n} oniix •ajTMls B.jsssaA •iloii.-ajoaniuA ^ s •li(.8tiBa 8[aa j JTiri JO ,10(10111^ s iisii ia,ia5(auiu a.m.uAii!'^ •)!.; J" Jl'iQ "! oiiiix i c oaBiis R.iassaA g i 'iWJi;.>.j0 9ni«j\. •A'iaiisfnuniiwi] liuv po,) (11 aiujx I AWAKD OP THE FISIir.KY COMMISSION. 2687 Mm,,. ■"•-; •O.R'IIS K,[3BH.>^'^ ;S : ■i[Di»a,}() ouivr^\. 5, -n «' I j -Am : -uauiv "! otufx '• ° ; '.utMis B.xassoA i n ■\\3\ua ,}o onivx 1 -iv.(\ JO .io(\cunx ; HSII I,),135{0«IH §-■'■' 5^ 1 . -J" *r £. -M ^ a' ^ • I'r. !:i i' (-i ^ -3 ^ ' ?i is ^ 7i "-^ '^ *5 i S 'x rr "T i-^ i-^ r5 1 ai f- -^■" X-* cT TT r:" » ftj r* n r; 3*. -" *>» . *r "M --c "^ ^: *» — ■ ' T » T "•?■ *r 71 7>J • « wr T M 1* •a- oiuiie K.iftsea^v -r *- x> tr i* -:» r: — r^ t- r. 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Vi .W' 2688 a ■€ H C9 A «c $ M) a ^ J3 •*.* ■a ii3 « s-^ a a .0 i:iu;ijoii8UBD ■uacuv u. oiuix i 1- lO 1-H 1 Cl^l ■»■ •ejBiie s,i98e9A |3, 133 06 3, 925 49 2, 710 90 1, 591 22 5 •i[D>BJ JO OIHB^\ ?7,964 13 8, 190 65 6,016 50 4, 070 51 _ - 1- ft •.1B(1 JO Jtxiiuiix •» — — o 5 ■.Uo ■HSI( pjO?10BI« JO jiiiQ "! oiuix x2 H .1" s? r H ■o.iBqs B.ioeea^ ^ c -v to to CI ''C i- ii^ r; -H r- t- ci c^ -« to iH c o c rt 1- to I- cj ^ i.'^-^ tortci — t--^xj^f'* CI r- *-o CI r- t~- •?» o to 71 *^ ».'i to if- tc-H ox-vx-^cj^ctci 1-1 to i- ■ri3}83 JO OIUBA in r- 1- ir: t-- X to r-i c. 7. Ci ^ x e^' Kr-' tc'-T -,o to'i-x'x'o'x'i- 1-5 I" o irf" 1-1 •XiD\t,iri inqtiBi puu iiub lu y'i'.iix 3^ Mox — r^e-jct — QDt- ci ^ ci « ci C» -N CI s «©o:irtinc: owoDOJ 1^ f-i 1^ 1 « 2 t£ X 3 X 7 X r- X X 'x ^ & c a 6- -) 1. = I -9.18118 8,I98f AWARD OF TII£ B^ISHERY COMMISSION. 2689 iljIt-'M^ 1 American s h o r .< mackerel tisbery. S5 ■ ■aaaqs 8,[9BS9A Si- ; S : : ^. : no 1-^ 1 1 •qovia JO eniBA Xp CO i TO i iil3nBOBio,i ^^ ■ mi JO jaqtnujj 2:' |s g lO •Snt ■qB!ll9J9Ti3Hni a .?52 § .S X & i .DU'liiB^i IS m jIii«)U!9ui!I i^"" tl CI Ci i t ■9.1B118 8.19889A. rt 1" — *o T r- C^ i* C: O LO t- r: *— ■— (r X 7- iri -r C X tr. X X 1.0 »- f ^ ^ — '(TfiOfffcOC* r. rt T* X -r TJ 1' I- O ..- - f-i X -r ir J - r- 1^ 51 ^ 5» CO .»»• C-. xt tc !i n lO i< ■«• S) c^ X C-. -Jt 'i- •.; ,,;4«D JO 9ni«A SSS^SsSgS 3? i"^ 7 ■SiiniBij ;iiqi[iiq liuBpoo ui ointj, ?f -a : = ■X M « o o in CO o> 10 o e-. l-. -. . S3 ^3 I 5 1 i 'i 1- T 7 X ■5 V. r - n T'x 1^ r 7. 7 ; 1 1 ,* 10!) F p'3 ^i-'-i^iftl? li^l l:;: M TlS*' II IM'^ ^A » ! f^^ '4 Wf-'*- «r-'!-i#<«**. Vi 4 .iaiiUUffiStaf' .■'*^* ii.,,..A5, Mi'' ;i*f,!*.4j - ? i^jg^u. 2690 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■^■' t-(!«^*'; ill s I <« ^ 'Ojnqe 8, •t|3?Bajo 'lq8iiBD siojjiKi JO .laq - uiMuoiuy nj e 'OJBqg 8.(98 •qo'jBo JO on| ; s|9jjt!q JO j.iqnii r •A'joqsjj [oja r ? I ')H JO Jino a, ami •OJBqe S,I08B9j I* • ; •qojTOjooniBj •Sniqsg ^nqj li'MpiiBpooaiaiutj AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2691 ■%"■ *?i,;-..;;' ■..»•'■-»■>-■ si^il 'liM„, ' 2692 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. '■''•m^ ;1»iMi ■■<»!( I 3 ■a 01 '^ 1-- g s t1 n I p to a § 'eavqs b,i9ss9j\^ S5 •qo^uo JO 9in«A 50 «et ^ •0JBI18 8,10980^ ■qojoo JO oniBA puB poo nt omix !^ Irt Q -H (' 1^ f (^ 1. X X) /. a 5 (N ci M eo 1^ 01 rH o 5 - ►? 2 1 M § S fSi , < MI- S'" of^ •.?J9t|8ij ■mqjlBti - ; puu poa 11} aiujx 6^^ rt -V !^. ef s b^ I CI 61 a s o O 1-1 s a .« H ^ "e p § 1 1 i s I 1 m^'f i:7^iii'^^^,5 1. I ,' /"5 i.::? «rt*» 3 '•^<*.,*«?r; '>fi . •'TF>.-i»^!>t(a^^ fi** :iu-i 2694 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. w \im S E -- .a 3 eg (J 09 S B o h9 '^ 2 ■a: 5 ^ 5 ^ 1 ^ So a B .a to ■ojBqs 8,n e«OA S •qo)BD JO oniBA i •a«q JO jeqiun^ 2 1-1 •Saj •1(811 IWOMO""' oJoi(H iieo r •OJOqR B.I98S3A •qo^BO JO 9ni«A •(jqSntio Bjca ■jBq JO Jd(iiuux Part share. 399 •Silt •qsi) I9.i05i»«ui 9Jlia,IMB1 'IS ,(•> Jl"0 ni oiujx r r' - •9.lBqS 8,19S89A •qajBD (ODniBA •;tj9TiS!; ^nqiiBq puu iioo Ul oiujx 1 1 1 U <) I 2 ^ ■ S : 1 i-( ". |'lSJoj[iiouiou ! •.C.i9i[S[j jnqijB puu [103 Ul omi AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2695 '. i •g S a £ o ■3 a a IS •aanqs e,i9B89A 3 ? u 'qa)83 JO onjBA r-4 1 1 s;?i u 1 nn t^ 7 i •OJBtlS B,(9SSajY S? o < •qojBO JO onjUA S38SS§ o ■»' ci a5 ft at 1- 5) -. t- £ Ituu poa ui eiujx i-s*?is 91 ci CO TP'^QCt- "0 s 5 1 K e S t- I o ►41 C 5 I ^ OQ 8 ^ 3 'I S 2 I <' ' ' W mm :;.«-■« :L.f"' p-hJ:. hf:. I- 1: jfe l;^:^*'-' 7i ::*':1.>- ';^ 2696 AWARD OF THE FIHHERY COMMISSION. I .r .< >'o. 59. Tuesday, October IV>, is;;. Tiie Conft'ieuco met. Eliimialkt W. French, of Knsrport, IMe., fish incicluuit, called on behalf of the Govenuueut of the United Stiito.s, sworu and oxainiued. By Mr. Trescot: (Jnestion. You are a native of lOastport, I believe '. — Answer. I ain, Q. What aye are yon '! — A. Forty-om^ years. ii. In what business are you engaged ? — A. In the wholesale ll^li bus. inesa and fitting out. ii. How long have you been engaged in it? — A. Twenty years. Q. As in business for yourself, or as clerk, or how 1 — A. I liavc hcin in business for myself nineteen years last February; previous to tliat I was in a store with my father. Q. What was your father's business ? — A. He followed the saiiic busi. ness. Q. How long did be follow it?— A. Nearly forty j-ears. Q. So the Arm of whicii you are a nieniber now, and which yon iv|i resent, and tlie business in which your father was previously, extiinl over how many years ? — A. Something like sixty years in the same busi- ness. Q. Will you explain to the Commission what the business is?— A, Buying and selling lish and titting fishermen. Q. Buying fish whereabouts, as a general rule? — A. Fiom fisliermeii, Q. From fishermen, where ? — A. Atdrand Manan, Deer Island, Cam pobello, Indian Island, and Beaver Harbor. Q. Is it a matter of necessity in your business that you should have a pretty good knowledge of the fishing at those places t — A. Yos. Q. You make or lose money according to the completeness aud pre- cision of your knowledge of that fishery ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the fishery at Grand Manan and the Bay of Fmidy ;,'ou erally ? — A. Codfish, pollock, hake, haddock, and herring. Q. Are any of those fisheries entirely off-shore fisheries ? — A. Codfish is an off-shore fishery. Hake are taken off' shore. Q. Entirely or partially ? — A. Hake are entirely taken oft' shore now, Q. Was it once an inshore fishery ? — A. Yes; it is only within three] or four years they have been taken off" shore. Q. Before that it was inshore ? — A. Inshore and out, both. Q. How about haddock °i — A. IIa«hlock is mostlj- an inshore tisherv, Q, Herring, of course, is an inshore fisiiery ? — A. Partly. Q. Into what divisions do you mark the herring fishery ? — A. There| are smoked, pickled, and frozen herring. Q. With regard to smoked herring, where is tlie market for sniokeilj herring that come from the Bay of Fundy, Grand Manan, aud the isl ands of the mainland 1 — A. Boston and New York, principally. Q. Are they sent to Boston aiul JSew York from Eastport, or do uiaiivj go direct f — A. They send most of them to Eastport. They are broiii'litj there in boats, and sent from there iu steamers and sailing vessels. Atl Grand Manan they have three or four largo vessels by which tlieysiiii)j them to Boston aud New York direct. Q. Are those American vessels or Graiul Manau vessels owned bvj Grand Manan people ? — A. 1 know one that is chartered is an Ameritaul vessel, because it is my own vessel. I don't know iu regard to others.! Q. Do they ship on account of Americans, or do they charter the ves-j sels 'I — A. They are chartered by Grand Manan people. , Q. Is the hake t'ii«lish fishery. '.*• Is it botii ?— jiliokedi'go over Q- What is you ||"iieh iu hake ?— A liave been 25,000 q '?■ The large nia ^iHl HI British watt rt^^els all fish outs I '^ Is the bulk of |»"tside fisb(?ry ?-_j Q- With regard '"'lout, both. , ',()(»(>. {}. !)(» you know by whom that flslu'ry is conducted ! — A. It is con- iliirtcd l>y the inhabitants of (Irand Manan. (^», Entirely? — A. Ahnost entirely. I understand there is a man at Eastport who owns part of a weir over there, or has an intcr(^st in sonm way ill weirs there. (). But, as a general thing, it is emi>hatically a native fishery ? — A. \Vs. {]. With regard to the frozen herring, is that the same ? — A. Vcs. {}. Have you any idea of the value of the frozen-lu-rring lishciy of Giaiid Manan ", — A. 1 think about $40,000. {}. Js that exclusively a native fishery, or do Americans go and par- ticipate ill it '. — A. Very few Americans do. Some small vessels at East- poi't go over there. (». How many ? — A. Perhaps half a do/en. (). Can you form any idea as to what pr()j)ortion the value of their (Mttli bears to the f 4(MM)0 you have mentioned i — A. It would bo a very Muall i)ai't, because Grand Manan owns perhaps twice as many vessels astiie Kastport people, and there are vessels at Canipobello, Wilson's llt'iicb, and Deer Island. (^». As to the pickled-herring fishery, is that a special business, and is it valuable ? — A. It is not so valual>'e as the others. (^>. Is that conducted in the same way ? — A. Yes. (). Are Americans engaged iu catching and smoking herring on our own coast i — A. Yes. (^1. To any large extent? — A. Yes. {). Do you know what is the value of the ]Maine coast smoked-herring lislu'iy by American fishermen ? — A. No ; but from the number of weirs, Islioiiltl think there are as many herring smoked on the coast of jNIaine as oil tlie English side. Q. Do the herring smoked on the American side equal the I)ritish her- liii;; in (luality and bring as much in the market ! — A. Yes ; there is one imiticular place at the town of Cutler and another at Manleybridge, liiither on the coast of Maine. Manleybridge herring bring a^^better hiiice than any otiier herring shi[)ped to Boston and Xew York. j^Mau- I le\ briilyo is near Mount Desert. Q. Now, with regard to the remaining fisheries — cod, hake, and had- lilock. The cod fishery, you say, is au otl'-shore flsherj^ ? — A. Yes. Q. Is the hake fishery au American or English fishery ' — A. It is an |Eiif:lish fishery. (^ Is it both ? — A. It is almost entirely English. Those few vessels spoke (if go over there hake fishing. Q. y\'\\at is your estimate of the hake fishery ? Do you deal very |iniii'L iu halce ? — A. Yes ; I deal in them. I should thiuk there might liave been L'5,000 quintals taken this season. Q. The largo majority of those would betaken by British fishermen and iu British waters ? — A. Yes. The boats fish near tlie shore, but the [vessels all fish outside. *^ Is the bulk of the fish taken outside, and is it considered to be an mtside fishery ? — A. I think it has been for the last two or three years. Q. With regard to haddock, hosv is that ? — A. It is taken inshore [Jiulout, both. '^ Then with regard to the fisheries of the county of Charlotte, you Itiiow pretty much what their extent is, do you not i — A. Yes. 'i'. What do you estiniate as the value of the whole fisheries of the ■"Sir"*'** , ' 5 Mfii _'*^"-" r^^r^-^^ M I }.'•■■■> ,!'•■ ■ ■ '*■' v' ...tilt -'"■;• :^A ^m^^^ ... aSm k^ <-■■... f.\ ,1 ji*».! ^>. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) A ^^ 1.0 i^iM 112.5 |36 2.2 I.I i^ mil 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1116 — 11=^ ^ 6" ► Hiotograpliic Sciences Corporation 33 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 872-4503 U.x :<> 2698 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. county? — A. I sbonid say the fishery at Campobello, Deer Island, aiirl Indi I don't know so much about ; it is not to that extent ; it may be half what it is at Grand Manan. I should think #1,000,000 would cover the whole of the fishery. Q. With your knowledge of that fishery and your dealings with the fishermen, and the necessity of knowing what th" catch is, would yoa say that any appreciable portion is caught by American fishermen ?-1a. No ; I should consider it an English fishery. Q. Would you consider there was any possibility for the catch made by American fishermen to be so large as to equal that amouutlDg to tl,0OO,000 caught by British fishermen ? — A. No ; by no means. Q. Is it possible that such a state of things should exist without yoii being acquainted with it? — A. No. Q. Do you know Mr. James McLean ? — A. I know him by sight. Q. Do you know where he carries on business ? — A. The firm does business at Letite and Lepreau. Q. I want to call your attention to some of his testimony with regard to his estimates of the fishery of Charlotte County, and a^k whether you think it correct, and, if not, how it should be reduced. The follow iug is from Mr. McLean's testimony : Q. Judging from your practical knowledge of the fishery, being an owner of fisli- ing-vessels and dealing with the men who fish as you do, what do you say, at a Imr figure, would be the value of the fisheries and the actual worth of the fish cangbt k British subjects between the points you mention, from Lepreau to Letite? Wliai \s ould be a fair average value from 1871 ?— A. I should estimate the (luaiitity fm Charlotte County and the adjoining islunds. We all fish; aud it would be difficult tu { sejiarate the two. Q. You are acquainted with the catch of the island as well ? — A. Yes. I visit Graml Manan Island occoHioually, aud the adjoiuiug islands often. Q. What is the catch of the whole 1 — A. A low estimate for our fishery would k I $l,000,OCC for each year. That is about the estimate you made just now ? — A. Yes. Q. Then there is the following : Q. For British subjects f — A. Yes. Q. That is a low estimate f— A. Yes ; I think I am under the mark ; in fact I have | no doubt of it all. Q. And it may be a good deal more ? — A. Yes. Q. You have not a shadow of a doubt that it is at least a million ? — A. No. Q. And our American friends take a considerable amount more? — A. They take a« I many. Q. They have more men and more vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. Aud they take at least as much? — A. Yes; fully as much as wo do, ifuoij more. I Q. Have you any doubt that they do take more? — A. I believe that tUey take| more. Q. You have no doubt of it f — A. No. Q. That would make a million dollars' worth takeu by them ?— A. They must takeaj million dollars' worth. I Q. That is the very least calculation f— A. Yes ; I put it down as low as possible, toj be safe and sure. I Q. They take at least as much as we do ? — A. I believe that they take more, and! they take as much any way. I Q. The American catch, as well as our own, on which yon place an estimate of a| million dollars in value, is taken within three miles of the shore ? — A. Ves ; I an coufluiug myself to within the ;{-mile limit. Are you in a position to say whether that is true or not ?— A. I dou'lj think it is true. I think he has made a mistake. Q. Do you think your business is such that you would know thefaclj if It was so ? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2699 Q. That there could not be two million dollars' worth caught instead of one million without you knowing it in your business f — A. Yes. Q. It' it is so, that would make a very good business for the mercliants in Eastport, if they deal entirely with Grand Manan ? — A. Yes ; Campo- bello, ne(^r Island, and Grand Manan. Q. What is the condition of things f Is it such as to indicate very larije protits to the fishermen f — A. No. Q. What is the reason ? — A. There is not much money in the fishery. Q. To the Epstport people, you mean f — A. Yes ; and I have suffered a loss by it; that is, in the fitting-out part, I mean. Q. What do you say to this : Q. Aloug the coast of Maine, say from Eastport westn.irdf there lives a large jiopnla- tiou who tmh entirely in our waters f — A. Yes. They come from Lnbec, Perry, Pem- broke, aud Eastpurt, and along by Cutler and westward of Lubec, and still farther away than that. Q, Aud from Mach.as f — A. I think so. Q, Tbey all come and flsh in our waters? — A. Yes. (j. And not in their own waters? — A. I do not know of any fishing within the three- mile limit in their waters. (j, Within three miles of their coast there is no fishing of which you are aware ? — A. f 68. Q. And this is a population that lives by tishing alone ? — A. From Eastport and along there they follow tishing for a livelihood, beyond question. Q. So that a large body of American tisbermeu gain their whole livelihood in our Raters ?— A. Yes ; those that fish there do. A. That is not so. i^ - Q. State to the Commission what you know of the habits of those people. — A. It speaks of the people being engaged in fishing only. Thev are engaged in farming mostly; that is reallj' their business, but tbey carry on both fishing and farming. There are only one or two or three or four vessels owtied at Lubec, one or two at Macliias, and one at iloiiesport, that come down tliere. Q. I find this, also, in Mr. McLean's testii lony, speaking about St. Andrew's : Q, It is sometimes called the Inner Bay of Passamaq noddy ? — A. I Hup]inse that it is. (). Was not that at one time a great Lerring-grouml ' — A. It was once a splendid lisLiiig-jtroiiud. Q. Since tbe negotiation of the Washington Treaty, and since the Americans have •■'lied tlicre, what has become of it? — A. It has been destroyed within the last two )• ars. It is now no good whatever. ^. How (lid the Americans destroy it ? — A. By bringing too many vessels there, and bysi'ttinj; too many nets. The water is quite rough there at times, the wind blowing heavily in from the northwest. Northwest winds prevail iu winter, aud throe years I igo wo had a very hard winter. Do you know anything of the destruction of flsh in St. Andrew's Bay ? — A. No. Q. You know something about tho fishing tliere ? — A. Yes ; I know tliere are as many herring taken there as there ever w ere. A year ago last spring the catch was unusually large. Q. He says there is no fishing within three miles of the American shore; do you know of any fishing done not only by Americans but by English tisliermen on the American shore ? — A. The best fishing in St. Andrew's IJay is on the American side, from Dog Island, on Eastport, to Lowerin's Cove, iu Perry. There are other places of course, on the American shore. There are herring taken at Cross Island, near Machias, aud Libby Island, at the mouth of ISIachias Kiver. Q. Do you know any fishing- vessels engaged fishing within the three miles of the American shore ? — A. All vessels from the other side flsh 1 St. Andrew's Bay ou the American side. i! M m u.;; !»«f V .mm m ■ ,,,;.* &MM ippfi' ill iS ^-^' 2700 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Do jou know Walter B. McLuugbliii ? — A. Ouly bj' reputation as keeper of a li^^lit-house. Q, I want to call your attention to bis testimony. Tbere is tlio hi lowing: (^. Now, in the Hpriiig am yoti not viHited by the Orand Mimnn fleet fidin (ildiicci,. t«'i ? — A. Yfs; they used formerly to come to Grand Manim direct. Gencially mn, tliey {JO to Kastjiort and get tlie p]a8ti>ort peophi to catch hait for them. (/. When yon say •'formerly," do you mean after the Treaty of Wusliinj;toiif_\ Yes; they did not come before that much. It is since 1871 that the; have come m'in. ci|»ally. They will come down every sprinK- *.}. How lonjj do they last f — A. Sometimes a longer and sometimes a shorfti time. t/. How many years after the treaty did it commence ? — A. It has lasted ilown toil;,. jtresent time, f(»r that matter. There has not been so many this last spriiij; as litinr,. (}. I tlionght yon said there ha t been a change in the practice f — A. Tiicic has imt been a change in the practice of getting bait at our places, bnt in the mode of irctthh' it. They generally come to Eastport anreau, is that a good fisliing-grouud ?— A. Ii > considered a good fishing-ground ; I am not personally ac(|uainted with it, and can only say from what I have heard ; my duties have never c.irried mo there. Q. Hut your practical knowledge extends there f — A. Y'es. Q. What would be the value of the mainland fishery, the Ikitiah fishery alone, takiii,' it from Letete to Lepreaux f— A. My own fishery is, say, ii>.S(Ki,(t(Hl; Campohello miil West Isles must equal mine, and the mainland will certainly be more than half ul that. if not equal to it. Q. Well, then, you put Campobello and West Isles as about equal to Grand Maiiau !- A. Yes; speaking as I do, not knowing exactly, I should say so. Q. That would be half a million for those two islands, and half a million forOraud Manan — that makes a million ; and you think the mainland is half as much as either of those; that would be a fair estimate for the mainland * — A. Yes; Charlotte Couiiiy is a very important fishing county. In lri()l 1 was a census enumerator, and I think the result of the fishery in that county nearly equaled that of all the other lislieries of the province, with the exception of St. John County. Q. You put half a million as the catch of the Hritish lisbermon on the niaiiilaudfor j the year, and, in your judgment, the Amer' an catch is the same 1 — A. Al! I can jmi^'i' is by what I hear. They come down iki their vessels. I think they have tlicir own way on the north shore, very much more than on Grand Manan; I have a groat deal ot trouble with them thiiie. IJnt on the north shore I think they have tliinijs pnityj much as they want. I would say that they probably surpass our own cixtcli. You don't agree witb tbat estimate ? — A. No. By Mr. Tbomson : Q. I \.ant to call your attention to tbe last paragrapb read to yon.iiij wbicb you contradicted tbe evidence of Mr. McLaugblin. Mr. Tresiotj read to you tbe following: i). Yon are well ao(|uainted with the fisheries of Charlotte County; take the mmiij laud from Letete as far as Lepreaii, is that a good fishing-ground ! — A. I am not [iir-j sonally ac<|uainted with it: I can only say from what I have heard. My duties havo| never carried me there. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2701 lis either Cnuiuv 1 tbiiik la'i'ii'S 01 llaiiA (or I twu way I deul oi Is pri'tty lyou.ui liiot iii'i-l lii'slKivel 1)0 yo" mulertake to say that the fishing ground from Lepreaii to Letete is a bad fishing-ground ? — A. Xo. Q. Thou what made you contradict the statement? — A. T contradicted that remark he made iu regard to American fishermen having their owu Q. Tlie whole passage was read tp you and you contradicted it 1 — A. 1 ret'errcMl to the hist part that was read. Q. l)i»»' i''^*^' . ■:n4p' 2702 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I thiuk all the fish would come into EA8t|)ort, because all the fishiogjs done iu smaller vessels, from 10 to 20 tons. Q. If vessels are sent down from Gjoucester or Newburyport, or Ma< hias, do you say they would necessarily call at Eastport after taking a c£,rgo in our waters ? — A. Machias vessels would, because they sell at EaJttport. Q. Do they always sell there? — A*. Yes. Q. They never sell at Machias f — A. 1 never knew them do so. Q. How does that happen i — A. Because Eastport is their market. Q. Is there no market at Machias ? — A. Not to any extent. Q. Did I understand you to say, in speaking of St. Andrew's Bay that tiie best fishing was on the American shore ? — A. Yes. Q. And you further stated that Machias Itiver ran into that bay ?~ A. No; I said there were herring taken at Gross Island. Q. Did you not say when speaking of the fishing iu St. Andrew's Bay, that the best fishing was on the American shore, and went on to H\wik of the Machias River running into the bay ? — A. No; I will explain the statement. 1 say the best fishing in St. Andrew's Bay is frum Dog Lsland at Eastport to Lowerin's Cove in Perry, and there are also bening taken at Cross Island, at Machias. Q. What have Cross Island and Machias to do with St. Andrew's Bay ? — A. I was asked in regard to where herring are taken on tbe American shore. Q. You say you have never been to the main land, and have not therefore examined the fisheries, and yet you swear you don't know of American vessels going there ? — A. I don't swear that. I know of bait a dozen vessels owned in Eastport. Q. Do they go and fish there ? — A. Yes. Q. Off the main land ?— A. Yes. Q. What part of the main land? — A. Off Lepreau; I know they tisli ill that vicinity. I don't know as much about the fishing there as I do at Deer Island, Grand Manan and Campobello. Q. Do you know where the fishing places on the main land are ?— A. I know they fish off Beaver Uarbor, Lepreau and Letite and iu tliat vicinity. Q. Dontthey fish at Back Bay ? — A. Yes, they fish there; principally] in the winter. Q. And at Mace's Bay ? — A. I have not heard of fish being taken at j Mace's Bay. Q. You don't pretend to know where the fishing places are on tliel main land? — A. I have some general idea of them. Q. Have you ever been to St. George? — ^^A. Yes. Q. How long is it since you were last there ? — A. Several years. Q. Have you been there during the last ten years ? — A. I tbink so. Q. Have you ever been in the adjoining parish, which borders on tliej bay, Pennfleld? — A. No. Q. Or the next parish, Lepreau ? — A. I have never been to LepreanJ Q. Have you been along the inner bay of Passamaquoddy, along tii8|' shore? — A. No. Q. You have been to St. Andrew's, I suppose ? — A. Yes. Q. How long is it since you were last there ? — A. A year or two. Q. St. Andrew's is connected by a steamer with Eastport ?— A. Ye8( Q. It is easy of access ? — A. Yes. Q. To St. George or St. l*atrick, Pennfield or Lepreau you have nevej been, and you have ago ? — A. Yes. been to St. George once,, and that was 10 yeatj AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2703 Q. Yet you put your opiQion against that of a man who has been on the groniul ? — A. 1 make my estimate from vessels from Eastport which I kuow lish there, from the English fish which comes into Eastport from that way, and from conversations with fishermen in regard to the iishing there. Q. That is all ?— A. Yes. Q. Did you have those conversations for the express purpose of Hnd- iiicoutliow many fish were taken along the British coast f — A. No; it was- never mentioned. Q. You never had any object in finding out what the catch was ? — A. yo; I uever inquired. Q. How often have you visited Grand Mauan ? — A. I have never been at Gnind Maran. (I Canipobello, which is quite near to Eastport — you have been there, I Kiippose ? — A. Yes. Q. Is there valuable fishing ground on Gampobello shore? — A. They put up a good many smoked herring. Q. There is good fishing between Eastport and Campobello, withio three miles of Campobello shore 1 — A. Yes. Q. The fisiiing within three miles of Campobello shore is better than thefisbing on the American coast, is it not ? — A. The distance between Eastport and Campobello is only one mile and three-quarters. Q. The fishing close up to the island is better than on the AmericaD i coast ?—^^ It is everywhere in the bay. Q. Is it not better close to the shores of Campobello than close to the I American shores ? — A. It is pretty difficult to tell where the line run* I there. Q. Is not the channel much nearer the American shore than to the islaud of Campobello ? — A. The place where they catch most of the fish lis between Eastport and Campobello, and is called the Ledge. I think jit is about halfway between the two. Q. Is not the channel nearerer the American shore than Campo- jbello?— A. There is not any channel there; it is all deep water. Q. When the tide is out is there not a well-known channel there close Ito the American shore? — A. No; a vessel can anchor anywhere oft"^ [Eastport. Q. Dou't you know thafc the British line runs close to the American Isbref— A. No ; I don't know where the line does run, or anybody else. Q. And you dou't know the channel close to the American shore ? — No, I don't know it ; I never heard any channel spoken of between Eastport and Campobello. Q. Are there a large number of weirs round Campobello ? — A. A good pany. Q. Are there any on the Eastport side ? — A. YTes. Q. Many ? — A. A good many. Q. At Eastport ?— A. Yes. iQ. Are there many between Eastport and Lubec and along the fcore !— A. There are weirs at Perry, Lubec, and Cutler. [Q. Which is nearest to Eastport, Perry or Lubec? — A. Perry adjoins- ^stport on the mainland. Lubec is about two miles opposite to East- jort by water. iQ. Along that shore, from Eastport to Lubec, are there on the pericaa shore many weirs ! — A. I should think, there were. IQ. Do you know of your own knowledge that there are ? — A. I know pre is a large number. |Q. What do they take?— A. Herring. ■U<,.-A 4^ f^'*"; fM 'iriJ >;r^r- ''iiir , illlll'' "'?hiliyiM( 2704 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. And other fish ? — A. No ; tliere is a place at Treat's Island where there is an iinnionse quantity of herrin{; taken. Q. Where is that ?— A. It is part of Eastport, but it is an island. i[ is owned by a inau named Treat, who is a resident of JCastport, ami a great many herring are taken at that island. Q. Do I understand you to say that along the American sliorc tlin can catch as many herring as they want? — A. If they foUowtnl itusn business they could. Q. Why do they not follow it ? — A. A good many are engaj^'ed in farming. Those living at Eastport, where the weirs are, have iarije farms there, and do a great deal of farming besides. Q. Are all the herring sold at Eastport ? Is that the market ?- \ Yes. Q. Did I not understand you that when American vessels caino down of late years men came over, with herring from Grand Manaii ?— A. It is a different kind to what is taken in weirs. The weir herring ait small herring. Q. They don't upe them for bait ? — A. No. Q. Don't you catch large herring on your coast? — A. Thoy do in winter. Q. They do not take large herring in the weirs 1 — A. Not to any ex tent. Q. Then there are no iarge herring taken ou your coast ?— A. Yis; there are. Q. Ilow many are taken ? — A. There are large herring taken in one of the coves at Eastport. Q. Are they taken to any extent ? — A. A good many. Q. Are they used for bait? — A. Tl)ey can use them for bait, bnttliev are mostly taken in winter and frozen and brought into Eastport auil shipped by steamer. Q. At what season do the vessels which the fishermen supply wit bait come down to Lubec ? — A. In the spring. Q. If there are so many herring on your coast, why do not American | fishermen supply the vessels coming down in the spring for bait? Ae-i cording to you the British fishermen go out and supply them with bait, J though they have plenty on their own shores. How do you account furl it? — A. There are several reasons. One thing is they would rather buy! it from fishermen on the other side. The reason is because there are! Englishmen from Gampobello on board those vessels and they, ot'coursej will patronize their own people. I will give you an illustration if yottj will allow me. Last Mai-ch a gentleman from Gloucester, Mr. IJabsonJ came to me to get up a quantity of herring to send to the Swedish luarf ket. I had them put in barrels and sent to my place in Eastport. M employed a man named Calder, of Campobello, to buy herring for biiiij After he got througli there were so many small herring found auiouf them that there was a loss on the enterprise, and the small herring bail to be sold for smoking. Tlie lishermen from the other side who caiud and wanted to sell, told him that . You have never been to Grand Manan ? — A. No. (^». Do you undertake to say that there is not a largo Heet of American [vessels fishing in there every year? — A. I should say there is not. I Islioiild be likely to know it if there was. (^1, Not for herring aloiu^, but for other fish? — A. Some vessels flsh Itlicie for codfish. (^>, IfsiuiU a thing happened you would 'have lievird it '! — A. Yes. i,>. You have heard of Mr. MisLaughlin ? — A. Yes. Q. He is a respectable man ? — A. Yes. (). lie nuist have committed deliberate perjury in having stated that llie saw American vessels there, you not liaving heard of any being jtliere .'—A. I don't say that. (i>. Do 1 understaml you to say that you don't mean any American Ivissels coiue there for the purpose of fishing? — A. I don't say so. 1 say ]T(sso1s do come there cod fishing. 1^ For herring every year l — A. Not to any extent. i}. You don't believe it ? — A. No. (]. Then if Air. McLaughlin swore that they did, he was committing deliberate |)erjury ? — A. 1 have nothing to say to that. ^l Mr. McLaughlin having sworn what he swore, and you having given |lie opinion that, in your judgment, those vessels were not there, I ask rail' you can escape the conclusion that ]Mr. McLaughlin was telling liat was false ? — A. I think Mv. McLaughlin was right when he told hiibody in Eastport that he would like to alter the testimony he had |veii here. I don't say anything as to whether Air. McLaughlin told we truth or not. llj. Yon, a man who has never been at the islaiul, and consequently lever saw what the fishing there was, put your opinion against that of Iniaii who has been there and seen it.'— a!^ I do ; for I know from ves- lis wiiieii come from there to Eastport. 1'^ Do you swear that a large fishing-fleet from Gloucester does not jiine down there and fish round the island, especially for herring ? — A. jtlon't know that there is, only, as I said, for codfish. 170 F i '0^ . .:- . t; if^t « ■ tmm m::'A ■"'''IISI i^'f- >. ,<, ■■■, ,:*^^U''^ 'Wwm * i . ! 1i)>);iiiiiiiiK may be tnii-ed llii' suciess of tlio licrrinn iHisiuiss. wli; ; liiiN ilm-flopeil into a li'adiii;; liiiniiit'NM iiiiliistry. ami eiiipluyH iiiaiiy <'t' tli** lim-st vcv.;. of tl(o lluet. For the lirst dozen years tlie hiiHiiieHs was contiiied to NcwfiHiii'iliinil v,. . ajjoh ; Imt of late years an extensive lierriuK business lias jjrown up witli Giaml Mau.i:. and a few car^roes are bronj^lit unnuaUy from Novu f^cotia. Q. What do you say to that ? — A. It refers to frozen herrin;;. (^>. It says : "Of late years an exten.sive business has grown iipwuli (Jrand ^lanan"? — A. i .say tiiat is true; I don't deny it. Tim vesM-l* that come from Glouce.ster in the winter season go to (hand Maii;tntii>i to buy cargoes of fnizen herring. Q. This article is headed "Tlie herring bu.siness of (rloucester."aiiil it says : This herrinK industry enables our vessels to prosecute the Hank fisheries in Kilirii,,., and March, when iinmensebehooNof fish resort thither, antl the lar;rest fares an- liimi^ir in; it furnishes a valuable article of nourishing food for the New York, HDstim, «.; other nuirkets ut a low ]irice, and within the last year it 1ms opened a proiitaltlem:!:- Uierce with .Sweden, fix>ui which the best of results are anticipated. Another paragraph from the same article reads: The export trade of the past season, and the improved iiii' consu!ii:>- 1 tion, gave an im|)etus to the various branches of the herring fishery tlie p;i>t m:i.,.';, and some thirty-nine vessels were employe«l in the Xewfounilland herring iKi'Ir. m;; and fresh, while some thirty-six vess<-ls made herring trips to (irand Munaii iiini .\..\, Scotia on Ghuicester account. Most of the lleet have completed their voyiijri'>.ac.;| besides keei»ing this markt^t well stocked, eight cargoes from Newfoiiiidlaiiil ami r.. from Grand Munan have been lorwarded to New York, three Manan fares iiavi'Urtl sent to Philadelphia, and three Newfoundland and three New Krnuswick cur<;(ieslia < been marketed in Uoston. Do you believe those statements ? — A. That refers entiivly to the frozen-herring business, from the fact that it says they send tluiu ;} New York and Philadelphia, and (Jloucester vessels come down to (iraml Manan and buy cargoes of herring, take them to Gloucester, ;UKi stuJ them to markets at New York or Phihulelphia. Q. What is the practice round Grand Manan as to buying herring '- A. They pay so much per hundred for them. Q. Do they tish for them them.selves ? — A. No; they buy them. Q. You never have been there ? — A. No. Q. You swear positively that they don't catch them ? — A. Yes. Q. Do they employ the tishermeu to catch herring for tlieiii .'-J The fishermen catch the herring, and they buy them and |);iy so luuc per hundred. Q. They never catch a herring ? — A. Not to any extent. Q. To what extent do they catch tliein ? — A. It is very sli,uht. fact, 1 think they have given it ui> altogether; a few vesst'ls toniier brought down nets. The skippers of tlio.se ves.sels have tultl iiicitilj not pay to catch the herring, and they would rather buy them, i kno one particular friend of mine who oyoudeu ;'^t. There ma Hand lishery. j ^ , '/• Tliere is no P>"T.'~A. No J 'i- ^011 think t h'i"llan(|, and sn Peirloiuidlaud th pfueHnt. ''P'^^'ays tba "^■» ail article. ' ^ *.' i'robably sue KatKastport N finer been th( '^;"'^'.l»>isi„es.sfo, y^ Jon never di, -•^- ii»t 1 ha v. I'^'^" the same Kyl.e.prese„tse| ,; «l'<'|•tafionof• '•^•'v«"filstishin. t ?« you agree wit 1*^ I'lJey are put li AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2707 ft to Q. As a matter you are sure of ? — A. Yes ; as far as I can be sure of •luyihiii},' by conversing with lishernien. Q. Without any knowledge of your own .' — A. That is all the knowl- f(lorto(l ut thin port the past wi-ek lia!^ Itoun foiir- ,^„_ti'n trom the Baiikb aiul Lii Have, uii«l t'oiir IVoiii Grand Manan. The New Itniii:!- »ick lurriiin-tinet bring jjood targoes, and the supply, being greater than will be iitdetl tu liitit the fmhiiig fleets, will be marketed in part in other markets. That shows they go down to get bait ? — A. Yes ; because it is frozeu iicrriiig tliey get for bait. They bait the vessels for going on the Grand Dunks. Q. Is this true ? I am reading now frojn " Tlie Fisheries of Glouces- ter froui 1023 to 1S7G," publishotl by Procter Bros., of Gloucester, in ISTO : The NVwfonniUand and New Hrnnswlrk herring fisheries, of comparatively recent 1 i.ni;iii, wliile not unattended with hardship and danger, bei'ame at once an important 1 jp\iliary of the (Jeorges and Banks fisheries, and have been jmrsued unremittingly I from ilif start. A. I don't know anything about the Newfoundland herring fl.shery. Q. Then about New Brunswick ? — A. I know they come there every I winter. Q. Do yon deny that ? — A. It connects Newfoundland and New Bruns- Uiik. There may be hardships and dangers attending the Newfound- Ikid fishery. I don't know about that. {I There is no hardship, in your estimation, about the Newfoundland li-bery '. — A. No. 1 lu'ver been there ? — A. No ; only he had not been engaged in the lo you agree with that ? — A. That is correct ; the herring are put up I Eastport. H They are put up at Eastport and sent to Gloucester ? — A. Yes 'irJll 2708 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. two or three dilVereiit flriiis from GlouceHter bought herring in Kastport laHt yenr. Gnu 1 packed out, aiul uuotUur party wu» there buying tliim packed up in barrels. Q. Do I uiiderHtand that you wish the CoiuiuiHsioiierH to believe tiiat the (ilouce.ster fleet comes down for the purpose of getting liciriii;; rouud (hand Manau, goes down to lOastport und slii[>s herring tlitn' — A. Yes. Tiu'se parties are from Gloucester. II. Does the New Urunswick hshing-iieet, the herring-Heet, tiiketlmi cargoes into Kastport before they go toCJIoucester? — A. They go dim n on the north side and buy herring and take them to (iloucester. Q. It comes to this. You come here for the purpose of contriKlictiii^ Mr. Mcliuughlin as to what took place on the island of (irand .M.iiiiin" where you say you never were in your life. Is that true .' — A. I d;! uot come here to contradict Mr. McLaughlin. il. Y'ou have in fact contradicted ^Ir. McLaughlin i — A. I have toM what 1 know. il. You put your opinion as to the facts respecting lishing rouml Grand Manan — though you have never been there in your life— ajraiiht the oi)iiiion of Mr. McLaughlin, who has resided there all his iiie, iiinl swears to certain facts. You do the same with regard to the main hml, where you have never been, except once to St. George, and tiiat tm years ago? — A. I consider J know as much about the lishing, buying' lish at Eastport which comes from there, as Mr. McLaughlin, wlio lal parj of his business is tliat of a merchant. Q. If he swears that he sends out flshing'-vessels and boats,
  • vol mean to say the statement is untrue ? — A. Ue may do that. Q. You undertake to put your opinion against liiis? — A. Y'es. Q. Though you never have been there at all :' — A. Y'es. Q. Mr. McLaughlin has said this: Q. Now about liow many Aincrican vessels fish on tho coast (1nvin<; the ^casnii Jt woiihl be har,sse (}. TllOll^rl liiir 1 Uiunv, <,'. V(»ii sw (^ Mr. Mci I/. I>0 fllt'SO V( \r,ir; III «iiif„r !)•> yon com 3(:iiiiiti lianks '/ That is „ 'llilt?~A. I Hi Kiisf/)(»rt inny niici) tlie her'ri tliclierring htn Q- 'So the sti, limiiiif is entir Q Is the hul 'i'' Vou say tl -VDreiKirely • j 'i*' Tlie largei •^fiiiiaii and the Ms end] year a I '"■'»■<> or two or ''"'.^ 'liive put th 'i'- 1VI1 ;ne a si '"'•' "inter /jjsl, |?'*i' .von the (name of a wiiiity for ei naf man twent II' i''.'s tiiey are cd 'i'- tan yoi, o-i, Jt |,""i fliat ?_A. J' Itoome.s'fc I ■'" fo k„ow all m lieen on the .. iia ve t I"" tlien'.s. I I'*'''! ii''ve it as '^""'^'« )U' that the (tianil Matiiin iteople Ush louml their own coast?- A. Yes. (^). Do yoii say tliat tlie Ainerioiti vessels do not uiitiiutiiber the (i rand Miiiiaii vessels.' — .\. I say they do not. {}. Though you had not been there at nil ? — A. 1 have not been there, l.nt I know. (). \o\\ swear positively that the statement is not true ! — A. Yes. (^. .Mr. McLaughlin also said: |j. Do tlii'sc v«HNt>!8 coino in tlMliiii^ within tlir'i)r entirely ; I say to a fjreat extent. {}. The larger portion is outside ? — A. The boat fishermen of Grand Miiiiaii and the islands of New Brunswick are complaining that the lifts each year are being set further offshore, and within the last year ni twoor two or three years they have been so greedy, they say, that ilic.v !iave put tla-ir nets tour or five miles out. <}, Till me a single man who has told you that the fishing in the fall iiiid winter lishery is not within three miles of the shore ;' — A. I ('annot hive yon the name of a Grand Manan man, but 1 can give you the iiiiiiic of a man who has been continually fishing there and in that iTiiiiiity for twenty years. It is not only at Grand ]Manan but at other plairs they are complaining. i). Can you give me the name of any Graiul Manan man who told l.viiii tiiat ? — A. It was not a Grand ^fanan man who told me. (>>, It comes tc this: those men who are on the spot aiul ought to be lalile to know all about the fishing, you contradict, though you have juot been on the spot ? — A. I say my means of information are as good |i^ theirs. I have been employed in business twenty years, and I have leon accustomed to converse with fishermen. 'i*. Do you seriously swear before the Commission that your opinion silli reference to the fisheries prosecuted on the main land and at Giaml Manan Island is as good as the oi)inion of those who have lived Iheall their lifetime ? — A. 1 consider that my opinion and my means p iiit'ormatiou are as good as theirs. r.yMr. Trescot: ^'. In giving your testimony l)efore the Commissioners, you do not ban to give it as a i)ractical flsherman ? — A. No ; not at all. [•,'. Yon give it as a man representing a house which has been in the -iiiess i'or (JO years. Y'ou give your testimony, as I understand it, as Icotton-buyer would give his experience of dealing in cotton, lie Plows the brands, the qualities, and the places from which the cotton pes; and his views would be based on that sort of information. Now, itli regard to this question about the fishery, you have expressed the liuiou that in winter it is not exclusively an inshore fishery, and Mr. <'i|:* '':!;!i^;^ '' Ii' 111! 'H iSSB^: 4iP^.''u l'''l& !(ii|ii''4|iiii|n'^ 2710 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Thomson has submitted the opinion oi Mr. ^McLaughlin as opposed to this view; and I want to read the opinion of an overseer, Mr. Ciuioin.r. ham, of the Inner Bay, and see whether it agrees with yours. It is as follows : The winter herring fishery, I am sorry to say, s'lows a decrease from tlio yii'lil of last year. This, I believe, is owing to the large »iiianMtie.s of nets — in fact miles ,,( them — being set by United Stvtes dshermeu all the way from Grand Mumin to y. Itreanx, and far ont in the ba i by the Wolves, sunk from 20 to 25 fathoms, which kipt the tish from coming into the bay. As they are fishing far off shore, a week at a time, this destructive practire can )i.' followed with impunity and without feur of detection. A. That is correct; that Is what the fishermen are complaiiiiiiK of. Q. With regard to what is called the Gloucester herring fleet, to which reference has been made here once or twice — are you aware or not whether this fleet takes out licenses to touch and trade when tlifv come to buy herring at Newfoundland, or at Grand Manaii, in Neiv Brunswick ? — A. I do not know anything about that matter. No. CO. William Davis, master mariner and fisherman, of Gloucester, Mass,, was called on behalf of the Government of the Uuited States, swora and examined. By Mr. Foster: Question. You are seventy-one years of age? — Answer. Yes. Q. When did you first go fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Liv rence?— A. In 1838. Q. And when were you last there? — A. In 1876. Q. How many years were you there fishiug in the interval?— .V, I could not tell exjictly ; but I was there for a good many years. Q. Y'ou have a list of them? — A. Yes. Q. In what schooner were you there last year ? — A. The 15. D. II,i< kins. i}. How long were you there in her? — A. About three months. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you then catch.'— A. Oiiol hundred. Q. What was your share in money ? — A. Twenty-six dollars. Q. For three months' work? — A. Yes. Q. You were also there in 1872 ? — A. Yes. Q. And vou were there during a good many vears between 1855 ai 1807?— A. Yes. Q. Will you state to the Commission where you used to tish (liuiiigl those years, and where you caught your fish i I want yon particiilailrj to mention the places within the three miles of the shore where you useA to fish or try to fish ? — A. I cannot name a great many places witliii^ three miles of the shore. Q. Where did you use to go to fish in the bay ? — A. The tlist year was there we cauglit what we did get, and that was not a great uiaiiyj on Banks Bradley and Orphan. Q. What were your principal fishing-ground.s ? — A. These were Uaiikj Bradley and Orphan, and the Magdalen Islands. Q. Where did you ever fish inshore in the bay within the tlireeniil limit? — A. I so fished some little at Margaree, although 1 iievenv* fortunate enough to catch any mackerel there save very few. Q. How near the main-land and how near the island did you lisli AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2711 Margaroof— A. We fished some pretty near tbe island when we did fish there. Q. Diil yon ever fish in the Bend of Prince Edward Island f — A. Yes, some. Q.'WIieii yon did so, how far from the shore were yon in the habit of lisbiiig ?— A. Well, I have fished there 5 and G and 10 miles oft" shore, but I ilo not think that 1 ever canght any mackerel there within the three-mile limit. We were generally pretty siiy of the bend of the island. Q. Why? — A. On aeconnt ot it being a rather bad place for getting i'HII ;lit ill with an on-shore wind. It is a rather dangerons place. By Mr. Da vies: {}. Did yon ever fish rnnch on the American coast? — A. Yes, in my \()iiii. And where did jou go in October ? — A. We then cruised on the I'-'ajie Breton shore, keeping broad off from it. (i». Did you fish during any part of the autumn oft" the Bend of Prince iWward Island ? — A. O, yes, we have fished oft" there, but nowhere pitliin the three-mile limit. <^ Did you usually fish there ? — A. No. iJ i] liH te^"^ 2712 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Yon say tliat in the autumn you usually went to the Cape Breton shore? — A. Yes. Q. "What was your harbor there ? — A. Port Hood. Q. When you made Tort Hood your harbor, how lonf>' did yt)u li^ih j|, the vicinity ? — A. Sometimes a fortnight and sometimes three weeks, Q. When did you usually leave the Magdalen Islands to go ovm- in the vicinity of Port Hood ? — A. We usually left there about tlie 1st m the middle of October. Q. IJow ne.'ir the mainland and how near IMargaree Island were von in tlie habit of fishing when you were in the vicinity of Port llooij .'_ A. 1 think that sometimes we lished near Margareo Island, but wlun the cutters used to be there we used to fish broad off. Q. AVhiit is the greatest number of mackerel that you ever ennglit within 3 miles of the shore, either of the island or mainland, at Mm garee ? -A. As near as I can recollect, this was in l.S'iG, when we ea light 15 wash barrels about half-way between Mabou and Margaree Islands. (}. Were you in the gulf when the cutters were there ' — A. Yes. Q. Uo you remember .any conversation taking place with the cnii tain of a cutter as to where you might fish ? — A. He told us that we conlil iish three miles from the land. C^. In what depth of water ? — A. Twelve fathoms. Q. What did he tell you about fishing in 12 fathoms of water ?— A, III told us to stand off in 12 fathoms of water, and that we would tlieii W clear of the land. Q. Where was this ? — A. Off New London Head. Q. What was the name of this captain ? — A. 1 do not renieinbcr. (^>. Do you remember the year when this took place ? — A. It wascJtIiH in 1851 or 1852 — I forget which. r>y Mr. Davies: Q. I suppose that when you would be in 12 fathoms of water oil tliciv.j you would be about three miles from land ? — A. I could not tell you tbut, 1 thought by the looks of it, this was i)retty near in. Q. And he told you to go otl" in 12 fathoms of water. I uiidiiistooi you to say that at (Jape Breton you used to nuike Port Hood voiu linr j bor ?— A.' Yes. Q. Did you stay there every night? — A. No. i). How often did you go in there l — A. When it was stormy ne soim-i tin es went in there, and sometimes we anchored off Margaree Island. Q. In the month of October, you did not fish near the Magdalen h ands at all ? — A. O, I have been there late in October. <). Was this the case as a rule '! — A. 1 do not know about a rule, Imtl have fished there in October. Q. You stated in answer to iMr. Poster that when October came vod cruised arouiul the Cape IJreton shore ? — A. Well, that was during partol October — not the 1st of October. During part of the month we (lid sol Q. When, as a rule, did you leave the Magdalen Islands to go to tlif Cape Breton shore 1 — A. 1 have staid around there until the Uitli ii the 15th of October. Q. That was the extreme limit of your stay there ?^-A. I could i say lor certain, but that is the case as near as I can remember. Q. When did jou generally leave the ^lagdaleu Islands and go towaij the Cape Breton shore ', — A. 1 think about the lUth or the l."»tli ot 0\ tober. Q. Do you state this to be the general time when you left there.'— j Yes; we always were around there about the 10th,\iud souietiincs tij 5th aud the 15th or the 20th of October. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMIfSSION. 2713 uu'lmr-! iU',bml "or j);\rt 01 M m |-() to m Kith luJ jtowai'i Ih of Oj Q. Yoli hift there from tlie 5tli to the 20th of October ?— A. Yes. Q. And the remainder of the season you spent oil" tlie Cape lireton j;l„„e.'— A. We did not spend the whole time there; we might start oil rtiui iio somewliere else. Q. Docs the weather beeome blowy about the ^fagdalen Islands about tLiit iieriod ? — A. Some years that is the ease, and some years it is not. Q, I suppose tliat iluring tiie years you were on our eoast during the lleciprocity Treaty you fisiied inshore and olt' shore and everywhere .' — A. Tiii'ie was nothing to stop us doing so, but we could not cateh any tish iiisliore. There was nothing to (uiteh inshore. (}. Did you then take particMilar notice whether yon <:auglit your fish ill or off shore ? — A. 1 tiiink we did. Q. Why '. — A. I do not know, but we talked the matter over among (lUiselvt's, as to how and where we caught our mackerel. {}. Did you catch many mackerel near Margaree :' — A. No: 1 do not tiiiiik that we did. Q. Do you mean to tell the Commission that the mackerel caught of!' Maifjaive are not (laught within three miles of the island or within three mill's of the shore? — A. I have caught mackerel inside of the three-mile jiinit otf Margaree Island. '.». When you had the right to fish in there, did you not go within the tliive mile limit? — A. Yes; 1 say we did so. (^t. Was it not your habit and custom to lish within three miles of the >lioie (lining the Iteeiprocity Treaty I — A. No. We nsed to lish oil" >li()it'. ij. What, then, did you mean by telling Mr. Foster that you lishetl uwir .Margaree, and that wlum the cutters were then^ you tislied broad loll!— A. And when the cutters were not there I lished inshore i (J. That would be the inference? — A. 1 said that when the cutters mie there, 1 lished broa«l offshore. (,). 1 presume from this that when the cutters were not there, you iiislinl inside the three-mile limit ? — A. I do not know about that. (^ k, tliat correct ? — A. We always used to fish offshore, and inshore I toil, Q. 1)1(1 you take out lic^enses? — A. We did not. i}. Were you in the bay during the license years ? — A. Yes. (^1. During what years were you there ? V()u said that you fished in Itlieliiiy from l.Sf!) to ISIil — then vou were not there during the license lyears .'— A. No. Q, What were your average catches in the bay? — A. l.'iO and iiuO wneis; and some years 'MM barrels; and one year our catch was (lOO krii'ls; all of which we caught on Banks liradiey and Orphan. (,>. When was this?— A. In 18(50. Q. You do not know anvthing about fishing in the l)av since ISOl ? — No. Q. Or whether the fish have of late years been taken in theii' old Piaiiiits or not ? — A. No. ','. What was the size of the vessel in which vou look that large N'-'-A. lis tons. Q. Did you ever lish about Seven Islands ? — A. No. Q. And you never fished much about I'rinee Edward Island .' — A. knot a great deal; and I never fished any to the nor'ard of Banks piiliaii and Bradley. 1 'i'. Did you fish there outside of four or five miles from the shore .' — |i We used to fish there so as Just to see New London Head; and we |>lio(l I'loui there to North Cape. m m KM 2714 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Aud that would be in 12 fathoms of water? — A. We would be pretty near in when in 12 fathoms of water. Q. You did fish there otf shore ? — A. Yes; we did. Q. But were you accustoined to flsh there i Was it one of tiic lislijn^f grounds or haunts which yju freijuented ? — A. No; we used to goto the Magdalen Islands to get big mackerel. (J. And after they were done, and if you were not successful tliciv, you went to these other places? — A. We used to go to Banks Unuliiv and Orphan, and to Bird Bocks. Q. When you were not successful there do you mean to say that vdu did not try oti* Prince Edward Island ? — A. We used to try broad oti shore there — in sight of land. Q. I am not speaking of the limits; but .did you not try olf Prinoi' Edward Island every year ? — A. We fished there broad oftslion^ Q. Never mind that ; but every year you tished there ? — A. I say we used to fish there so that we could see the land; we fished up ami tiowii broad oft" the land ; we would be about 25 or 20 miles oft'. Q. Did you do so every year? — A. No; we did not. In 18(i() w e fislnMl altogether oft" the Magdalen Islands and oft' Bird Rocks. Q. That was for one year? — A. Yes; and in 1850 also we fished there altogether. Q. With the ovception of these two years, you fished every year (tl Prince Edward Island ? — A. Well, we used to fish there broad ott'sliui, so as to see land ; we did uot like to go in. Q. W^hat then induced you to have a couvers.ition with the captaiii of a cutter respecting the distance oft' shore, where and in what iiumlierj of fathoms you should fish ? — A. We did so because we wanted to linJ that out so as to satisfy ourselves. Q. If you uever fished oft there save at a distance of 20 or 21 miles from laud what earthly necessity could there be for making such an iiiqiiinj at all ? — A. We had nothing to go by so as to tell what distaiuse we werej from land. Q. Do you mean to tell the Commission that although yon tished I'll miles offshore there was any necessity to intjuire of a captain of a iiitf ter in how many fathoms of water you should fish, so as not to tislij within three miles of the shore? — A. If we fished in toward tlie liiiiitsj we wanted to know when we would be safe. Q. Why did you want to know the exact depth of water in wliidi !i^ fish ? — A. We saw the captain of the cutter when we were k<""S and some wanted to heave to and fish, while otliers urged tlnit «^ should ask him about it. Q. And you never caught any fish inshore? — A. I did not say tli.ij we did. Q. Why did yon wish to know the exact limit? — A. I never caiislil any fish inside the limit there ; but I have done so on the (Jape ButoJ shore. Q. Why did you want to know the exact distance at which vc shoidd fish oft' New London Head ? — A. We wanted to satisfy oij minds and know where the limit was. No. 62. Edward Hill, fisherman, of Gloucester, Alass., was called on kli of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. How old are you ? — Answer. I am 50. 2* ill AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2715 \\\k\\ \i Iw; nil liliiit «j liiy tlii belli Q. When did you first fish in theGulf of St. Lawrence! — A. In 18."»(L Q. During how many years altogether have you fished lor maclierel iiitVjIi'l''-— ^^- !*• Q, When did you last fish there ?— A. In 1S09. Q. Wliat were your ]>rinci]ml fishing groun«ls when fishing for mack- erel iu tlio gulf ? — A. These were about the Magdalen Islands, and be- tweeu tiK'iu and Cape Breton, and on Banks Bradley and Orphan. Q. Did you ever fish off the bend of Prince Kdward Island f — A. No ; iiearNortii Cape and about 10 miles off was the closest in that I have lieeu off the island ; but we never tried there. Q. VVliere have you fished the nearest to the shore in the gulf? — A. Oft' Margaree. Q. When did you go there usually ? — A. In October. Q. Were you in the gulf in October, 18.">() ? — A. Yes. Q. In what schooner ? — A. The B. H. CoUis. Q, W lio was the captain ? — A. Llewellyn Reed. (}. Did you come in contact with a cutter commanded by Captain Darby ? — A. We did while we were in Port Hood. Q. I want you to relate that incident exactly .as it occurred. — A. When we first got in the bay, on the first trip we went, it was in Octo- ber; abont tlie 7th of October we went from Port Hood down to Mar- piree, and there was a man who came on board from another vessel, and says he. " There is a Kockport vessel which has been taken by Cap- tiiiii Darby. ' il Come right down to what was done by Captain D.irby. — A. We caught about 25 barrels there, and then we got scared and went oft' shore. \\'heu we got to Port Hood we had a good deck of mackerel. We bad them all salted on deck. Captain Darby came on board, and avs he, " You have a fine lot of fish ; I rant to see your pj^pers.'' He hook them on board the cutter, and said to the captain, " Come on board in about an hour's time; we will talk it over." The next thing, our cap- tain came on board, and says he, "I have compromised with him by giving him 20 barrels of mackerel, and,'' says he, " a little pinkey will loiue alongside for them." We thought that this was in charge of the Icaptaiirs brother, but I have heard since that this was not the case. We Itook the fish oft' our deck, and struck them down into his hold, and off he put; and he gave us permission to strike the mackerel down. 'i'. What do you mean by striking them down.' — A. Heading them Hipaiid stowing them in the hold. P.y Mr. Thomson : 1,1. That was in ISoO or 1831 ?— A. It was in 18")0. (ii. Yon liad been rtsliing in Margaree Harbor I — A. fa;: otl' Mabou. Q. You iiad been fishing within three miles of the laud i — A. aii^'lit 25 barrels there. Q. Within three miles of land? — A. I do not know about that; the auil is very high at ^Mabou, and it is hard to tell the distance exactly. So cutter was there, but only this little boat, which informed Captaiu Kby of it. Q. Will you now undertake to swear that yon did not catch those 25 »rrels within three miles of the shore ? — A. Well, 1 am not certain put it; the distance off" shore might have been three or four miles. iQ. \Vill you positively swear that you did not take them within three lies of huul ?— A. No. 10. How many barrels of mackerel had you then on hand ? — A 140. We had been fish- We then ilil Ill i'lil jflilHI ■ ii m 'Sli Jliij fS', ^« M-'.^ if 2710 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Where had you caught the rest? — A. Broad offshore, about 20 luiles ott"; between that point and Entry Ishind, of the Magdalen Islands, Q. Then you got frightened and ran olf to Port Hood ? — A. We got our decks lull and it breezed up and we had to run to Port Ilood fom harbor. Q. Where were these 25 barrels lying ? — A. On the deck along with the rest. Q. When you catch mackerel, do you not dress them and ]iut thorn at once into barrels ? — A. No, not until we get all we can into the biirrtls and until they are fairly struck. We leave them for 24 hours geiimaliy and then head them up and strike them down. Q. What do you call fairly struck ? — A. Salted so that they will not shrink. Q. As soon a3 you catch them you salt them i — A. As soon as we jjet them we let them soak in water for perhaps two or three hours, if wt have good weather. Q. You then open theni ? — A. We then dress them. Q. How was it with these 25 barrels I — A. They were on deck along | with the rest. Q. Were these fish lying in water on deck ? — A. They were all salted when we reached Port Hood. Q. And they were in barrels ? — A. Yes. Q. Were they headed up ? — A. No. Q. And you saw Captain Darby after you came to Port Hood :'— A, Yes. i^. Y'ou were then in the harbor? — A. Yes. Q. Was it foul weather when he came on board and took your papi'islj — A. Jle came on board and got the pai)ers from the skipper, and liH then went back to his cutter and told th( captain to come in abont aiij hour's time, and he did so. Q. Who was your captain ? — A. Llewellyn Keed. (^. Where is lie now ? — A. He is in Gloucester, working as a teanistcr.l (). Y'our captain went on board of the cutter? — A. Yes; and k\ stoi)ped there, I suppose, about half an hour, when he came haekl "Well," says he, "I have got the papers, and we have permission toj head them up, and stow them down" ; and says he, "I have got to give| him 20 barrels of mackerel to compromise for the papers." Q. Then I understood you to say that Cyaptain Darby came down toJ your vessel, took away the papers, told the captain to come on board m the cutter, and about half an hour after he went, your captain came bad;! and said ho had compromised with Captain Darby, of the cutter, bj] giving him 20 barrels of mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. What kind of mackerel were they ? — A. Number ones, and gooi| ones — very good ones. Q. Were these taken on board of the cutter ?— A. They were put oii board of the small pinkey; he had a little spy there, and he spied usoiit| Q. Was the pinkey the spy ? — A. Yes. Q. How much did this pinkey get? — A. I could not tell you aiiytiuDa about how they settled her hash. (J. What became of the fish ? — A. They were put on board of tli^ pinkey. Other vessels had to give him some. The Reindeer, of Xevrj buryport — I recollect it the same as if it had liap])ened but yesterday- took 2 barrels alongside the cutter, but Captain Darby was somewlien on shore, or on board of some other vessel, at the time ; they asked il Captain Darby was on board, and the answer was, "No"; tlieii said till mate, " What have you got V " We have 2 barrels of mackerel berotj AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2717 m jive us permission to stow our mackerel down." " Well," says the mate, (•tins is tall" ; and they took on board the mackerel. (}. As one of the crew, you were entitled to your share ? — A. I lost Di\ siiiue of that catch. We did not know whose mackerel were taken. We do not put our private mark on them until they are headed up. — " Q. How di»l you tell them ? — A. We had tiiem separated. I told the i jkipper not to mix them all up, but to take part of each man's catcii. (t. Elow could you tell whose catcli It was? — A. Wo have them all jcparated, and a space left between. Q. Then you know what barrels belonged to each of the crew ? — A. lyn; because he mixed them all up — ho was so agitated and scared. Q. That was before the cutter got hold of them at all '. — A. We had lilieiii all right before the cutter got hold of them. (}. Were they all headed up i — A. No ; but they were in barrels, the liislibeiiig i)iled up, and heaping over to a considerable extent, when (iiptaiii Darby came on board. {). Vou mean that the barrels were full ? — A. Yes; and heaped up. Q. That was all done when you were running from Margaree to Port IUwhU— A. No; we proceeded to salt them in Port Uood. We Iiad tlieinall in salt barrels; we were all night dressing them; and by the time we got to Port Hood we had them all split, gutted, and in water; we then commenced to salt them ; and when we had all but 2 barrels halted we saw the cutter coming. Q. To whom did these three barrels belong? — A. I could not tell. (). Had they been kei>t separate ? — A. We had them all salted but liose. il Do you know to whom these 2 barrels belonged ? — A. No ; t could hot tell exactly. Q. Did you know at the time? — A. No. [}, Tiien the tish were all mixed up at that time? — A. We do not look loiit for each other's mackerel, but for our own ; and I looked out for jiuiiie. Q. Had any salt been put in these barrels at the time ? — A. All lU}' |t<► cents a ton. (}. Wiujt was the tonnnge of your vessel ? — A. 11). (^», Why did you pay $24.50 for a Iicen.se, having no object for doing 1$,)!— A. I did it so that I couM fish where I had a mind to, and so that lltouiid them inshore I could cat(!h them there. Q. And always before that you had found plenty of mackerel in the [lioilv of the bay "! — A. Yes. Q. You never previou.sly fished within the limits at all ? — A. Yes ; I liiiilso ill 1851. {}. Did you fish inshore in 1851 ? — A. Yes. {}. Did you get good fares that year? — A. We caught, perhaps, 40 or |5(iiiiUTels iushore towards the last of our li.shing. Q. When were you last in the bay ' — A. In 18G9. Q. I suppose that you have heard that the mackerel have kept inshore Imiicli more of late years than was formerly the case .' — A. No; 1 do not ItDOW anything about it, because the vessels have not l)een doing aiiy- IthiDg. All the vessels .say that thev have not been doing anything at ill, Q. Have you heard that the mackerel have kept inshore of late years liiuiethiin they did previously ? — A. No; I have not. Q. Then in all those voyages you never went inshore to fish, except n 1851 and in 1806, when you took out a license? — A. No: not inside lllie limits. '). You kept off .shore all the time ? — A. I'es. Q. Did you get full fares all the time ?— A. I did not get full fares iu llSiiO and 1807. Q, And yet you did not try inshore at all ? — A. No; because the ves- ifk which went inshore did not get anything. Q. Ami you would not try inshore ? — A. I would not run the risk, l). Did you ever lish in the Bay of Chaleurs ? — \, No ; never. Q. llave you never heard that good fishing was to be had on the loitliem shore of Prince Edward Island ? — A. No. '^ You never have ? — A. No. Q. Not from any one ? — A. No. I went round the island once. (l You have never heard from anybody' that there is good Ashing )iig the northern shore of Prince Edward Island, within the three-mile pit.'— A. No. Q. Well, then, in your opinion the privilege of fishing within three feof the shore along tlie British coasts is of no value at all to Amer- p fishermen ? — A. It is not a great deal of value to them, I should link. Q. Is it of any value ? — A. I 8U])pose it is .some at times. I suppose llifreare times when the vessels themselves would benefit by it. 1 Q. Was it s(J in 1854 and before 1854 ? You recollect when the Ke- fiprocity Treaty was entered into ?— A. Y'es. jQ. Was it a privilege then ? — A. I was not in the bay then. Q. You were there iu 1850 and 1851 ?— A. Y'es. Q. Were you there in 1852 and 1853 ?— A. No. Q. When were you next iu the bay ? — A. In 1855, I believe. iiv ■U ■'« J •«'':■■■ II 'm» Mm 2720 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Did voii Ash In the bay at all during the Ueciprocity Tieatv, frotu 1854 I.O ISOU f— A. Yes, I ilid so in 185.S. ii. i)id yon Hsh inshore then f — A. We tried insliore and got live bar- rels of miickerel in August, otf Cape George, with a seine. Q. Where is Cape George f — A. It is before you get to Pictoii. i^. Did you not fish along the shore of Prince IMward Island !,i<-. year ? — A. No. Q. Or olf Margaree ? — A. No. Q. Did you get a full fare then ? — A. \o, nor half a fare. if. You then knew that you had a right to go inshore and tish .'—.v. No, I did not know nnything about it, nor did the captain. (f. I understand you to say that you went there in I8.jS and did no- know that you had a right to go and Hsh within three miles of tiio sbiuc ; — A. 1 did not. Q. Y'ou did not know that the Reciprocity Treaty was in lorcp aii4 that it gave you a vight to tish where you pleased ? — A. No ; I was ,i hand then. Q. Did you understand from the captain that the reason he ke|it 4 shore was because he was afraid of the cutters ? — A. No ; he was no: afraid of the cutters. Q. Why did you not go inshore ? — A. If he saw mackerel in or olYsliur. he would have seined them. Q. Y'ou did not get a lull fare ? — A. No. Q. When did you enter the bay ? — A. About the last of July. (i. And when did you go out ? — A. The last of October. Q. You only made one trip .' — A. Y'es. i). Where were you tishing all that time ' — A. Broad off shore andoa Bank Bradley. Q. Broad otf shore? — A. Between the Magdalen Islands and (,i]k^ Breton. Q. Were you tishing near East Point, Prince Edward Island .'—A. >>>. we did not go near East Point, but we were ott" North Cape once. Q. Y'^ou were not broad oflF East Point at all ? — A. No ; but tlie ve>N and that I would attend to my own. Q. Is it not the business of a sharesman to do so ? — A. No; they are] on what we call half lines. Q. Then, in 1858, although you had the right to tish inshore, yoiiaii solutely kept out in the middle of the bay, only got half a tare, ami! staid there from July to October ?— A. We tried inshore at Cai"^ I George, and we thought our luck would be the same at other places. By Mr. Foster : Q. Dhl you ever try seining in the gulf? — A. Y'es; in 1858, 185!'. ami] 18G0, in one vessel. AWARD OP THE PI8IIKRY COMMISSION. 2721 (I With what auccess ? — A. Very little iiuleod. {]. Those were the years when you got these poor fares ? — A. Yea ; we tacli made about ^To the whole summer. \j. What sort of seinea did you use ? — A. The purae-seiiio. {}. Did you do so as early as 1858? — A. Yea; we had them on our >li()ri'. {}. You were at Seven Islands ? — A. Yes, with purse-seines, but got iiothiiit;. We stopped a good while there and we thus threw a great ileal of our time away. {}. You thus seined in 1858, 1859, and 1800 1 — A. Yes ; we were at Seven Islands in 1858. Q, What was the name of your schooner and the name of the cap- jjin »_A. The former was named the Potomac, and the latter, Nehemiali Adiims. Q. That was quite early for purse-seines? — A. We bad purse seines I for pogies and mackerel years before that at home : that is the way in (rliit'h we catch pogies altogether on our shore. I have seen vessels belonguig to this place at Seven Islands, which stopped until fall and came away without a barrel. No. 03. Joiix CoNLEY, Jr., fisherman, of Rockport, Mass., was called on be- Lalfof the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana : Question. What is your age ? — Answer. It is 4'J. Q. You have lived in Gloucester nearly all your life ? — A. Y'es ; with ;lii' exception of 10 years, during which I have lived in llockport. Q. Is this place in a ditterent customs district f — A. No; we have a deputy collector at llockport, but wo have to go to Gloucester to get oar piipers. (,». When did you first fish in the Bay of St. Lawrence? — A. In 1851. (}. What was the name of the vessel in which you were that yea^'? — A. Tiie C. C. Davis. (}. Yon made one tri[) that year ? — A. Yes. (}. How many barrels of mackerel did you catch ? — A. 175. i,». Wi'ie they caught off or in shore ? — A. They were taken olishore. Q. All of them ? — A. AH with the exception of a few barrels, perhaps I live, wlii'ii were caught inshore. . In whiit vessel were you in 1855? — A. The lliicer. We made one Q. How manv barrels did you catch ? — A. 250. <,>. Wluie did yo'i first fish ?— A". On JJank liradley. •i'. And then ? — A. We next went down to the IMagdalen Islands. Q. How much of these 250 barrels did you catch at the IMagdalen |ls!anils?— A. We got almost the whole of them there. Q. Whore did you catch the rest? — A. Around East Point and scat- |iered along the shore. Q- III 1855 you had the right to fish where you liked ? — A. l''cs. Q. And you knew that?— A. Y'es. :1 :f-i ^^. 2722 AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MMI8SI0K. I Hi Q. IIow many barrels did you catch ? — A. 204). Q. What portion of those wore caught inside tlie throcmih» limit ?- A. 7 or 8 harrelH; we fished on Bank Jtradleyand along the Kscuminui shore, oil" the west coast. Q. Were you in the bay or on our shore In 1857 ? — A. I was tlieii on our shore. Q. What were you doing T — A. Seining. Q. How many i>arrels did you take ? — A. About ."lOO. Q. That was the best business you had ,tet done ? — A. Yes. Q. On what part of tlio American coast did you tlsh 1 — A. From Mount J)esert to Cape Cod. Q. Jn wliat vessel were you in IS.jS?— A. Tlio Sarah IJ. lliuiis; | then made my llrst experience as master. Q. JIow many trips did you make to tlie bay in IS^S ? — A. Two. Q. What did you catch? — A. l.')(> barrels on the lirst and 17(> bund, on the second. Q. Wiieredidyou catch the 130 barrels?— A. At theMagdalon Isluinl-;, Q. Where di(l you make your second trip ? — A. At the Majjdaliii Islands and at Margaree — broad oil" Margaree Island. Q. IIow many of these IWi) barrels do you think were cauglit witiiin 3 miles of the shore ? — A. Well, as well as I could judge, wo niiylit liiivi so caught 15 barrels. Q. Were you in the bay in 1851) ? — A. Yes; in the Trenton. Q. Were you mackerel or cod tishing ?~A. I was cod-fishing one tnii and mackereling one trip. Q. You were first cod-fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. Where? — A. On Banks Orphan and Tiradley. Q. Were you successful ? — A. Y'es. Where did you make your second trip ? — A. In the bay, for uiackerel. What did you then catch ? — A. About 1 45 barrels. Q. Q. Q. Where did you get them "I — A. We caught the most of tliciii otl Cape George, on Fisherman's Bank. Q. Did you catch any portion of them within throe miles of the j coast? — A. Yes. Q. About what portion? — A. 10 or 12 barrels, I should juJgo; tbfv| were caught arouiul Pomquet Island. Q. What did vou do in 18G0? — A. I was banking. Q. Cod fishing?— A. Yes. Q. Did you do well? — A. Yes; very well, indeed. Q. Did you go into the bay the same year ! — A. No; I did not as;aiu| go into the bay until 1862. Q. In 1801 you were on the American coast ? — A. Yes. Q. Mackereling?— A. Yes. Q. Seining? — A. Y'es. Q. How many barrels did you take? — A. 500, 1 think. Q. Whore were you in 18G2 ? — A. In the bay, iu the sehouner Koged Williams. Q. How many trips did you make ? — A. Two. Q. How much did you get ? — A. 300 barrels each trip. Q. Where did you catch them? — A. Most of them at Islands. Q. Any jiortion of them inshore ? — A. Y'es. Q. What portion, do you think? — A. Probably we got 20 barrels in shore. Q. In 1803 where were you ? — A. On our shores. From that time nj :\ragtialeq AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMIHSION. 2723 to 1S7-, toil yeuiiS, 1 was tl.sliiugonour .sliores — iimckcrelllshiiigiii smull llOiltS. (l Wt'io not the 10 years fnMii 18(5(J to l.S7(» ?— A. No. {), III 1S(»;{ what d'u\ you do *, — A. I was in tlio Kranklin V, (Schaiik. [). Wlu'io dill you jjo tlrstf — A. To tho Grand JJanks. {}. Did you jjo into th« bay at all ? — A. Yes, in the fall. i]. What did you catch *. — A. 100 barn'ls of nuurkerel. (J. Wiii'ie did you catch them? — A. At .Magdalen Islands and Kast I'liiiit. {}. How many of those do you think you took inshore? — A. l.'i bar. ifls. (^», WiuMV did you (iatcli tliem ?— A. IMjjjlit olf KimI Head, at Soiuis. {). Wlmc you close in ? — A. Yes. [}. How (iid you (iutch them f — A. It was blowing'- fresh at the time, mil we s|)iiiiig up and caught them. Q. Ill 18(U where were you ? — A. On our shores. ^). (\)(l-fisliing t — A. Yes. (^». lldw many trips di«l you make J — A. Our trips were short. (}. How many pounds or quintals «lid you get for the whole seUvSon ? — » A, I iiiaile two trips and got 1 l."),0(H> pounds each trip. (}. Was that being very successful ! — A. Yes. (), Take 1805 — on the first trip did you go to the Hanks or bay ?— A. To the ISanks. Q. Did you do well there? — A. Yes. Q. What else did you do that year ? — A. I did not do anything. l). Did you catch any haddock ? — A. I think wo did a little haddock- iiijl, l)ut nothing to speak of that year. (^>, From 1800 to 1870 you were on the American shore? — A. Yes. (^». Did you go into the bay at all ?— A. No. (^t. What were you engaged in ? — A. In market fishing, for IJostou [iiiiirkt't, for haddock or mackerel or any fish we could catch. (I You are out but a day or two ? — A. We make short trips, some- hiiiH's two trii>s a week, sometimes one trip. (,t. For frosli lish ?— A. Yes. Q. You have never done any fishing with ixmiids and nets on shore ? — lA, Xo. il During the ten years from 1S(!(» to 1870 you were fishing on the lAiiii'iicnii siiore — were you successful ? — A. Yes, successful. Q. How did you succeed during tlie 10 years you were flshiiig on the lAiui'iicaii coast compared with tlie long period you were iu the bay '. — |a, I tliiiik it was a little better than it was in the bay. Q. You were in the bay from 1855 to 1805, during the Reciprocity [Treaty, and there was nothing to prevent jou fishing where you pleased. |Doyoii think you gave a fair trial to the inshore fisheries? — A. Yes. Q. What is the result of your experience during those 10 years you lor UogeiB'^'^® '" the bay as to the inshore fishing compared with the fishing out- ^siJe !— A. As far as my own experience goes, I never reaped much benefit pom the inshore fishing. Q. And yet you tried it?— A. Yes, often. l^lagilnleiB^Q. Taking the bay fishing as a whole, do you think the right to fish ^itliiii three miles adds much to its value? — A. It did not to me, to my lands '"H Q. That is your experience? — A. Yes. Q. You have been codfishiug a good while ? — A. Y'^es. It time n^ Q- Have you used fresh bait ? — A. Y"es. •^ And fished with salt bait?— A. Yes. liot -A'^m .^^^a W\,:^ -M'"^ l||H€,.iKl, 2724 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Take the result of your experience. Do you think it would be more beneficial as regards tlic pecuniary results of the trips to <^o in for fresh bait or to take salt bait, and rely on what fresh bait you can catch at the Banks and stay out? — A. To stay out would be more protitablc to nie. Q. You admit that fresh bait is better side by side than salt bait ?— \ Yes. Q. Then what is the reason why you think it is better to stay out with salt bait? — A. On account of the time you lose in going in and tlie money it costs to get it. Q. To get it and keep it? — A. Yes. Q. Did you find it pretty expensive? — A. I found it very expensive, By Mr. Davies : Q. For the last sixteen years you have been fishing on your own shores, catching fresh fish for market? — A. Some parts of the season I have. Q. Have you been cod-fishing portions of the seasons ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been on the Banks? — A. Yes. Q. From 1866 to 1876 I believe you were off your own coast catching fresh fish for market? — A. Yes. Q. So that for those ten years you know nothing of the mode of fish ing on the Banks from persoTial experience ? — A. No. Q. Previous to ten years ago, the system of fishing with fresh bait had not come into vogue, had it ? — A. Yes, I think it had before ten years ago. Q. Do you think that before ten years ago Bank codfishernien were i accustomed to take fresh bait or to run in to the coast for it ? — A. Yes, j Q. Did you ever try it yourself? — A. Y'^es. Q. Where did you go for fresh bait? — A. Round Cape Sable, and j round to a place called Pubnico. Q. Did yon flsh on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland at all .'—A, Not at that time. Q. You never fished with fresh bait there? — A. No. Q. You don't know anything about running into Newfoundland for] fresh bait '! — A. No. Q. You were on ( Jeorges Banks ? — A. Y'es. Q. Did you run in from CIeorg(^s Bank for fresh bait ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you got any memorandum of the results of the voyages ,'- A. No. Q. Y'ou cannot remember them ? — A. No ; I did not think it wasntoi essary. Q. And you cannot tell, of course, what the results were ? — A. >o, Q. And there) ore you don't know whether one was bettor than otlier ? — A. I remember going into ('ape Sable for bait to go on ljan(iuer«j after halibut and codfish. I cannot remember the name of the liarboj where we went ; it is a great place to go and get fresh bait. Q. How many times did you run in for fresh bait from the George.sI- A. About a dozen times. Q. In one season ? — A. In difiierent seasons. Q. Have vou ever gone and fished on the Georges solely with sal| bait ?— A. No. Q. Or anywhere else — on the Grand Banks ? — A. Yes, I have ou i Grand Banks. Q. How many seasons were you on the Grand Banks ?— A. Tffo i three. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2725 m oukl be ;o in for \\\ catch rolitaWe ait!-A, out with ami tlie ;pousive. your own e season I , Yes. 3t catcliiiig ode of fisli- isU bait bad e teu years ermeu weie ! 1 9_A. Yes. Sable, and] at aU!-A, TuntUiunl lorj Yt'S. voyagos- lli it was lU'C] J ^\. ^0. lev tlia" M 1)11 BautivH the baibo^ I Georges! ^ly witli sill [have ou til .A. Two I Q. Wlipu was that ? — A. I dou't remeuiber tbe year ; some time duv jutrtlie ten years. We made one trip there. We would go in the win ter market fishing, and in the summer would make a trip to the Banks Q. During the last 14 years you have never been in Bay St. Law rence fishing ? — A. I think I was there in 1873 in the Franklin S. Schank Q. That is a memorandum you made up from your memory ? — A. Yes Q. liefer to it again. You stated in answer to Mr. Dana that 18G3 was the last year you were in tbe bay ? — A. Yes. Q. Then for the last fourteen years you have not been in the bay tish- iiin[?-A. No. Q. Then you know nothing about where the fish were caught during those fourteen years? — A. No. I cannot answer it exactly, because my tigurea don't agree. My dates don't agree with my conscience. I have got it that 1 was there in 1873 in the Franklin S. Schank, and you have put it at 1863. I was in the Franklin S. Schank in 1873. Q. Then you were not in that vessel in 1863 f — A. No. Q. Where were you in 1863? — A. I must have been on our shores. I tool! notes of the years when I was in the bay, but of the years when I was ou our shore and at the Banks I did not. Q. Could you from your memory state accurately what years you were in the bay? — A. My memory fails me. 1 have not a good mem- ory. Q. You cannot tell from memory the years you were in the bay ? — A. ^'o, unless I were to sit down and think it over. Q, Irrespective of that one trip in the Franklin S. Schank in the fall ot 1873, you have not been in the bay for fourteen years ? — A. No. Q. Daring all those years you do not pretend to say where the fish were caught? — A. I do not. Q. As to the Franklin S. Schank, what became of her ? — A. She was owned in Rock port. Q. Was she not seized ? — A. Yes. Q. In what year? — A. The year she was built. I don't remember what the year was. She was seized and went to Quebec. Q. Was she sold? — A. Yes, and the parties bought her back. Q. What was she condemned and sold for ? — A. For net Ashing within tbe limits. Q. She was sold and condemned ? — A. Yes; that was before I went in iier. Q. She was bought back and then you went in her ? — A. Y'es. Q. Wliat time of the year did you come to the bay in her on the fall |trip in 1873 ?— A. About the 15th of September we left home. Q. I suppose yon got down to the bay about the 25th ? — A. About |20th or along there. Q. Where did you go ? — A. We went to the Magdalen Islands. •i. Is it customary for vessels to go to Magdalen Islands after 25th September ?— A. It is. Q. I understood they generally left about 25th Se|)tember or 1st Oc- Jo!)er?— A. Some do not leave there till the weather blows them away. Q. When is that? — A. When the anchors won't hold on the bottom. (i. When is that ? — A. About the last of November. Q. Are you sure in stating that? — A. Yes. Q. That niackerel-flshing vessels remain there till the last of Novem- «rl— A. Yes; 1 staid myself. Q. In what year? — A. I don't remember the year. Q. You have not been there for 14 years? — A. I know I have not. p. •- ^ ■'■■ **.■# *'■ ' -. "•"' .»V>»C ^"^. 2726 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. C«an you remember the name of the vessel you were in when yon staid till the last of November ? — A.. Roger Williams. Q. That was iu 1802, was it 'I — A. Yes; we weut adrift. We had to leave. Q. Can you remember the time? — A. I cannot remember the time. Q. Was it the last of November ? — A. It was somewhere about the first. Q. How do you mean you went adrift? — A. We never stay in the hay till the last of November. Wo always reckon to be out of the bay by the 10th of November. Q. You mean the last of October ? — A. Yes. Q. Is it not the first of October they leave the Magdalen Isliiiuls!- A. About the last. Q. A witness (Mr. Cook) who preceded you said that from tlie oth to the 10th of October they left there. Where else did you fish tliut year iu the Franklin S. Schank? — A. At East Point, Prince Edward Islaml, Q. How did you fish there ; did you go inshore and drift out .'—A, What we caught we caught to an anchor inshore. Q. Did you try fishing and drifting off? — A. Y'es. Q. Were there any vessels with you? — A. There were not any the day we caught our mackerel. They were all in the harbor at Soiiris, Q. When you were lishing, drifting off the land, were there any other vessels there ? — A. Yes. Q. Lots of them ? — A. Yes. Q. How many wouhl you suy ? — A. 30 or 40 sail. Q. All engaged in the same mode of lishing? — A. Yes. Q. Is there not a larger fleet generally found off East Point than 30 or 40 sail ? — A. Sometimes there are more, and sometimes less. Q. Sometimes a good deal larger ? — A. That was about an average that year. Q. Can you remember, leaving out the Franklin S. Schank, what prn portion of the mackerel which you caught in the bay fourteen years ajro was taken within three miles of shore ? — A. I think about one-ninth part, as near as I could judge from the little experience I had. Q. Your experience was not much ?— A. No. Q. Did you ever fish about Seven Islands ? — A. No. Q. Nor in Bay Chaleurs ? — A. No. Q. Nor along the west shore of New Brunswick, from Miscou to Mir michi ? — A. Off shore I h.ave a littU. Q. You have never tried within three miles of the shore ?— A. >i; not off' that shore. Q. Did you fish round the bend of Prince Edward Island '—A. Yes; I have tried there. Q. Did you ever try within three miles of the shore, except at East Point?— A. Yes. Q. Whereabouts ?— A. Off St. Peter's, New London Head, auil all along what we call the Sand Hills. Q. Did you try many times there? — A. Different times, yes, Q. And you always tried by going in and drifting off'? — A. No: tlii' j wind would not always allow us to do that. Sometimes we would dri " north and south. Tiie wind would not always be right offshore, ami it all depends on the wind. Sometimes we drifted along the shore; soim'' times from north and south ; sometimes in and sometimes out. Q. The fleet all pursued the same mode of fishing ? — A. When I «;ij| trying along tliere [ was always alone. I never happened to be iu ;"'} fleet Miien lishing theie. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2727 1 Q, You never saw anybody else doing so ? — A. I siiy I never tried ffitli any fleet inside of three miles. Q. Did you ever see any other vessels Ashing in that way within three miles of the shore at the island ? — A. Yea. Q. How conld you see them ? — A. They were a distance off, trying along. Q. There were vessels there besides you ? — A. Yes. Q. What did you mean when you said you were always alone ? — A. Away from the fleet. Q. Were there, or were there not, other vessels with you when you were so fishing? — A. At a distance from me. Q. Wliat distance out? — A. Perhaps five or six miles along the shore. Q. Uow many would there be ? — A. Ten or twelve going and coming, someone way and some another. As far as my eye could see 1 would see vessels. (,). You saw vessels more or less all the time ? — A. Y^es. Q. You always saw them when off the shore ? — A. Most generally. Q. Is not the fleet accustomed to largely fish along there ? — A. When they strike mackerel they generally bunch up. When they cannot find any they go flying all around the shores. Q. When they catch the mackerel schooling they bunch togtither, a (.'ood many of them ? — A. Yes. Q. How many! — A. As high as 105 sail. (). Ivound one school ? — A. Yes. Q. Catching mackerel off' the island ? — A. I did not say off' the island. Q. Did you not understand that my questions had reference to the north side of Prince Edward Island ? — A. I did not understand you to say witbui the three-mile limit. Q. Did you understand me to refer to the north side of the island when you spoke about the vessels being scattered about at one time, and tlieu being together in a bunch ? — A. 1 did. (^ When you gave your answers to me you had reference to Prince Edward Island ? — A. I said I had seen 150 sail of vessels off the coast I of the island. i}. And every time you have been there, you have seen vessels more or less fishing oft" the coast? — A. Sailing up and down and trying to lish. Q. And have you known any fish caught there ? — A. Y'es. Q. As to distances from the shore ; is there nuich difliculty in telling the exact distance you are off shore ? — A. Y'es, I should judge there was. (^ A man might think he was three miles off when he was only two and a halt, or he might think he was outside the limits when he was really very near the line of the limits, might he ? — A. Y'es. Tiie way Ihave always found it is this : if we thought we wore a mile and a half oti sbore, ami we pulled to shore, we would find it three or four miles. Q. Where used you to harbor at the island ? — A. I have been into about all the harbors there. We used to anciior a good deal to a lee. Q. Where ?— A. Off East Point. *. '\.^. ■;-_ Jj.Y ■' w.^.-,«*-^ ^.: ,«'«' '"''isi.«^ .f ■^ii I : it 1 Ik 1^ -It ^^ju 2730 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I } \ T^ rv r^ t'' Li «•■»■ '■*■ By Mr. Foster : Q. Where were the mackerel taken which you caught ? — A. The first we caught were taken close inshore at the Miramichi Bar, or in otlier words, I might say, close to the mouth of Miramichi Harhor, wiiere Wf went to make a harbor. Q. That is outside of Miramichi Bay ? — A. Yes. Our rishermen oal! it a harbor, where we can get round under the lee of the wind, and wi can get round that bar and make a good harbor with the wind in a cei tain direction. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did j^ou get there? — A. Sometliiii;' like '{() or 40. I was then in tlie Grace L. Fears. We then came nmZ ott" North Cape, ami I think tiiat we got s6me CO or 70 barrels more bu tweeu there and Nortli Ca;>e, broad otl" sliore. Q. At what distance from the shore ? — A. Well, I think 10 or 12 inihs likely, or 15 miles. Q. Where did you go from there ? — A. We flslied down off Xurtii (Jape and around there ; we tried for one or two days, and then we went up around West Cape and came back again. We principally fished upauil down the island. Q. Did you fish up and down I'rince Edward Island on the nortli side ? — A. We did so on the east side. Q. What do you call the east side '. — A. The part betvveen Xortli Capo and East Point. Q. Uow far from the shore did you fish off the bend of the island .'- A. Well, with the exception of the time when we were coining out ot Cascumpeque, we fish outside of the three-mile limit. Q. How far from the shore 1 — A. From 12 to 20 miles, I should say, or something in that neighborhood. Q. Measured from where ? — A. The main land. Q. From the extreme bend of the island ? — A. Xo ; but from the near est land opposite where we were. Q. You have told us the places were you fished that year within three miles of the shore ? — A. Yes ; with the exception of the time when \ie were coming out of Cascumpeque Harbor. We then got about 50 wash barrels. I think we might have hove to somewhere about, I won't say within the three-mile limit, outside the bar, among the fishing boats, and drifted right off', so that, while doing so, we got about GO wash barrels. Q. Which was the next previous year when you were in the gulf !- A. 1872 ; I was then in the Waverley, Captain Tarr. Q. How many barrels did you catch ? — A. We brought home 2:30, Q. WMiere did you get them? — A. We caught part of them oli| Prince Edward Island, between East Point and North Cape, up ami down the island — well, from New London up off North Cai)e and broail j ott" the island. Q. Uow far from the shore of the island did you usually ftsli?— A. Ij never was fishing within the limits with the exception of onevoyage,j and I caught very few nuickerel there. Q. To what voyage do you refer ? — A. To the one I made in the Grace j L. Fears in 1874. Q. 'Where else besides oft" the island did you fish in 1872 in the War I erley ?— A. Between East Point and the Magdalen Islands, and up oaj liauks Bradley and Orphan; I also fished up and down tiie isliiiHM"| 15, or 20 miles up oft' North Cape. Q. What was the next previous year \^ hen you were in the biij •-•^' I will not be sure whether it was in 1868 or 1809. Q. Who was captain of the vesse! ? — A. Mitchell. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2731 Q, You have brought no niemorauda with you ? — A. No; I coukl not make np any, as far as that goes, for that voyage. Q. All yon have done is to imt down what your recolU'c.lion enables voii to state ?— A. Yea. ' Q. You have uo books or anything to guide you in this regard ? — A. >'o. Q. What did you do while you were with Captain Mitchell ?— A. We took 240 barrels of mackerel. Q. Where ? — A. On Banks Bradley and Orphan, and at the Magdalen Ishuids. Q. Did you get any of thera anywhere else ? — A. Xo. Q. In what schooner were you in your next previous year in the bay ? _A. Tlie Laura H. Dodd. Q. During how many years were you in her ? — A. Two ; 1801 and isiir.. Q. Bow many trips did you make during each of these years .' — A. Two. (}. Uow many barrels of mackerel did vou take in. your two trips in ISIIl:'— A. About 700, I think. {}. Where '. — A. At the iNfagdalen Islands. (I. Were any of them caught inshore, except at the Magdalen Islands ? -A. 2so. Q. Wiiereabouts at the Magdalen Islands were they caught ? — A. At Bird Eocks, principally. Q. Is that true of both trips ? — A. Well, during both, and more es- pecially during the first trip, we got a great many barrels at the Bird Eocks. Q. Did you fish inshore anywhere? — A. Xo. Q. Tbe next year, 1805, you were in the Laura L. Dodd ? — A. \'es. Q. And you made two trips i — A. Yes. Q. How many barrels did you catch '?— A. About GOO, I think, Q. AVhere? — A. On Banks Bradley and Orphan, and at the ISIagdalen Islands and ofi'East Point; and a few were taken up and down the island. Q. How far from land did you fish off East Point? — A. It might have been, I should say, 15 or 20 miles. Q. How far from the land was it ? — A. We were outside the limits, and from 10 to 20 miles ofi"; no mackerel were to be got inshore at all. We tried inshore. Ky Mr. Thomson : Q. You have not fished since 1874 ? — A. No; not in the bay ; but I liavp on our shore. . When was your last trip made before 1871 ? — A. In 1873. Q. And when was your next and previous trip made — in 1872 ?— A. I Xo. Q. Did you not state, in direct examination, that j ou fisiied in 1S72. [ ill the bay '.~A. I believe I did not — yes; I was in the Waverley in IS72. Q. I thought you said that you came here without memoranda ? — A. U'hd not come with any ; but I made a hasty sketch of my fishing ex- hunionce tlie other night when I was coming down here on the steamer. Ilmve nothing here that amounts to anything. Q. Do you recollect, in those memoranda, that vou were in the bay in |Kl*.'-A. \\>s. Q. Ill what vessel ?— A. Tiio Waverley. ^^ It 1 understood you rightly, in 1874, your last year in the bay, you pii{,'lit over one hundred barrels inshore? — A. \''es. I would not say .sm m ',fl P ■^^^. .mn>,^_ % Wf!. 4 f I* ■f^S ^:M1 I 2732 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. over one luuulrod, but it was aomowhere in tbe neighborliood of oin hundred. We caught fitly wash barrels off Cascum[)eque. Q. What do you mean by " wash barrels"? — A. A barrel of inai^kcrci dressed just as we catch them, four or five buckets of water being poiireil on the fish. Q. Would that be equal to a barrel packed ? — A. No ; it takes about four wash barrels to make three packed barrels. Q. When did you go into the gulf in 1874? — A. We left (lioiicester after the 4th of July— I think about the 8th. Q. And where did you go after you passed through the Gut ?— A. Wp went over to Souris, where we put ashore a couple of ladies, aiul tben we worked along the island. Q. Did these girls belong to the island ? — A. Yes ; we landed tlieni in Yankee Cove. Q. Did you fish at Souris ? — A. No. Q. Why did you not try there ? — A. Because the mackerel there were not good for anything ; they were small and poor. Q. Were the boats fishing there ? — A. Some were, I think. Q. Did you try there ? — A. O, yes ; while the boat was ashore with the girls we hauled the main boom out and threw over a little bait, but the mackerel we caught were not fat enough to grease the eyebrow of a mosquito. Q. But the boats were fishing there ? — A. Y''es. Q. And still these mackerel were not fat enough to grease tbe eye brow of a mosquito ? — A. Yes. We afterwards went north, and we got better fish there and near Miramichi. Q. How many mackerel did you catch at Souris? — A. About fifty or sixty. Q. What did you do with them ? — A. I do not know ; but I guess that we ground them up for bait. Q. You would not put them in barrels at all ? — A. No ; we did not take any account of them at all. Q. Were those^the kind which the boats were catching ? — A. I guess they were. Q. Are you sure of that ? — A. I am not quite sure ; but I guess tlie fish were all alike around there. Q. Did you look at the fish which the boats were catching ? — A. Xu; we did not stop there, but we saw the boats catching fish. Q. On that occasion you lee-bowed the boats ? — A. O, no ; save out boat which put the ladies ashore. Q. Did you not go in among the boats which were fishing off tlie shore ? — A. No ; we ran in there. Q. You ran in among the boats ? — A. No; but as we were going down from Yankee Cove, down by East Point, we saw the boats oti' fishing. Q. Did you see what sort of fish they were catching? — A. Yes; we could see them fishing, and I judge that they were catching just tlii same fish as we caught. Q. You threw bait over to catch poor fish ? — A. We threw a little bai over and tried the fishing. Q. And then you drifted oil' shore ? — A. No ; as soon as the l)oatcaiiii back we got under weigh ; we threw bait over out of curiosity toUn out what kind of fish they were and to see if they would bite. Q. And then you went'on to North Cape ? — A. We went to tbe nor' ard and worked up the island ; but we did not catch any fish. Q. Did you try while going up? — A. over a little bait. Yes : once in awhile we tbie« AWARD OF THE P^ISHERY COMMISSION. 2733 (). Was this within three milo.s of the shore ? — A. No. q! Tliiit was the only time that you canjjht any fish within three miles ot tlio shore, until you reached Miramichi ? — A. Yes ; then we fished oil Miraiiiiclii Bar. 0. Tliat was close inshore ? — A. Yes. 0. And there you got about 40 barrels ?— A. Somewhere about 30 — Ijetwoen 30 and 40 barrels. Q. It is as likely to have been 40 as 30 ? — A. Possibly the number uiijlht have been 4(>. Q. These were good fish ? — A. Well, they were better than the first ones wliich they caught. Q. You kept them ? — A. Yes ; we salted them. Q. They were fat enough to grease a mosquito ? — A. Well, yes ; but not ranch more. The mackerel were very poor that year iu the bay. Q. The whole time that you were there ? — A. Yes. Q, Alter that where did you fish ? — A. Across over to North Cape, oft French Village, and around off North Cape. Q. Close inshore ? — A. No; we never fished within the limits there. Q. Why; were you afraid to do so ? — A. No. Q. Why did you not fish nearer the shore ? — A. Well, we saw plenty of tish off shore. 1 do not know any other reason for not doing so. I ivasuot skipper of the vessel. Q. What was the size of your vessel? — A. One hundred and ten or 120 tons. (}. What was her full fare ? — A. About 550 barrels. Q. How many did you actuallj' take out of the bay ? — A. We landed 130 barrels at Canso. Q. To what number was the catch afterwards made up ? — A. To some- wliere about GOO barrels, I believe; I would not speak definitely on this point, but I believe they brought home about GOO barrels. Q. On her next trip ? — A. This was the whole catch including what we landed at Canso. Q, What was your object in lauding them there? — A. They wanted to {jet back to the bay again. (}. You did not have a full caigo with 430 barrels ? — A. I wanted to get iionie myself, and if 1 had been skipper, I should have taken the 1 vessel home. Q. You did not have a full cargo then ? — A. Well, we had a very good I fare for the time; if they bad taken caie, we would have had more — lin'obuhly too barrels more. Q. Why did the vessel not go straight home i — A. I do not know ; I I was not skipper. Q. \'ou do not know why these fish were landed at Causo ? — A. 1 sup- Iposethat the captain thought, as 1 said before, that he would go back jtotbo bay. (J. Were you one of the sharesmen ? — A. Yes. (}. You had then something to say about it ? — A. No, not at all; the |captain generally does what he pleases in this respect. Q. Does he never consult with the men ? — A. lie does not do so very loften. Q. On this occasion did he consult with the men? — A. No. <). Are you serious iu saying that you do not know why you lauded Itliose fish at Canso? — A. No, I do not know. I wanted to go home, as |ar as I was concerned, and I did so. Q. And he wanted to get back to the bay at once? — A. Y'es, I sup- dse so. ^i^M^i ^^., '♦r M*"-^^-'^^. .f l\P^ ■«f.' '-"^r A ' . . 11 ■ J,f • Q. Was not that the reason ! — A. Yea. Q. Why did you not say so before? — A. I aay I do not kiidw tin- reason ; there might have been other reasons. You might ask the rea son why 1 went home, and I would say, 1 suppose, it was because 1 wanted to. Q. But that is your own business ? — A. Yes. (.). Do you not know that the captain knew ho conUl make two tripsin trausshijiping his cargo at Canso i — A. Well, under some circiiiiistaiicts he could do so. Q. And he could under those circumstances ? — A. Yes. Q. When the vessel came back in the fall with her second fare, diil she take the barrels which had been landed at Canso on board .'—\ Yes. Q. She Just landed and left them there ? — A. Yes; until she returncil. Q. I suppose that this was of considerable service to you ? — A. Well. I do not know of any service that it was, unless it aided tiie captain's desire to get back to the bay. Q. Does this not enable you to make two or three trips when otlicr wise you could only make one trip? — A. Well, sometimes it does. Q. llow long would it take you as an ordinary rule to run from Cauw to Gloucester ? — A. AVell, I have gone home from there and come bm k again in eleven days. Q. Is that the ordinary time consumed in this passage .'—A. Xo; that is about two weeks. Q. Are not these two weeks very important duriug the fisbiug sea son '. — A. Well, that all depends on circumstances. Q. If the circumstances are such that there is good fishing in thebav, is it not important to be there as soon as possible ? — A. No ; during tile last ten years, if I had been in the bay and got a trip of mackerel, I wouhl have taken it home. Q. Suppose there is good fishing in the bay, is it not very important { to get back there and save these two weeks ? — A. No ; the wear and tear caused by leaving the fish round, and the leakage, causes a iaije percentage of them to be lost; and thus it is a disadvantage to laud and leave them there. I would never consent to the landing of a carjio | of mine at Canso. Q. Do I uudei'stand you to say that a large percentage of the pickle I runs oft there ? — A. No; but it is bad for the fish to be left there, in | some cases. Q. Was this the case with these particular fish in that particiilarj cargo ? — A. I think it was with some of them. Q. Will you swear that it was? — A. I will not swear that — uo. Q. Why do you mention suposititious cases, unless this has really taken! place? What did you get for your mackerel that year?— A. Aboutj $6.50 for number ones, I think. Q. Was that the ordinary price that year ? — A. Yes ; for bay mackj erel. Q. You got the highest price that ruled for the season ?— A. No. Q. Then the fish were not injured in any way ? — A. I do not kuow| that they were. Q. You stated that 600 barrels was not an extraordinary catch tliatj year, and that others did better? — A. Yes. Q. There was good fishing in the bay that season ?— A. Yes ; esp cially around the island. Q. You mean inshore ? — A. I mean around the island, inshore anij off shore. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2735 '%i (t. Did you fish at all nt I^rargaree that year f — A. No. 0, Did you lisU off Cascumpequo and llustico, on the northern shore „f tiiP island ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you tish there after you got back from Mirainicdii i — A. Yea; olU'ascninpeque we did. Q. Inshore? — A. When wo were comiuff out of the harbor — we ran 111 there to make a harbor — wo lislied comiufj down. Q. Did you gi^t good fish ? — A. We got better fish than wo found down ofl'Soniis. {), IJow many barrels did you cateh there? — A. Somewhere about 50 or (10 wash barrels; I could not give the exact ([uantity. (). liiit they were good lisli ? — A. They were as good as any in the Imv. (}, You have no respect as a rule for bay mackerel ? — A. Oh, yes. (^>. Are there good mackerel in the bay? — \. Yes; some years they ,ire tirst rate and some years they are poor. Q. 1 suppose this is the case everywhere ? — A. Yes. (,>. As a rule there is good lishing in the bay ? — A. It is not as good :i5it is on our shore, as a rule. Q. Do you catch mackerel within the three-mile limit on your shore? — A. Yes. Q. Will you swear to that? — A. Yes; I so caught some myself this season. Q. Is it a usual thing to catch them there within the three-mile limit, or lias this been the case during the last eight or ten years? — A. 1 do aot tliiuk that it is. (}. Then you do not wish the Commission to understand that your «liure tishery is carried on within the three-mile limit? — A. No, not on the wiiole. Q. Your shore fishery is prosecuted from 10 to 15 and 50 miles from I the coast? — A. Yes; and 150 miles from it, oft" on George's Baidc. {}. Tiiat is what you call your sliore fishery ? — A. Yes. (^». lu point of fact no mackerel are caught as a rule within 3 miles of your shore ? — A. Oh, yes. i}. Is there good mackerel-fishing there within the three mile limit ? — A. Yes. i}. And this always has been so ? — A. Yes ; there is some nice fishing I there. Q, And the American witnesses who have testified here that tliero is liiotisliing to speak of there within the three-mile limit are entirely mis- [taken ?— A. Yes ; I testify to my own experience. Q. When were you fishing within 3 miles of your shore in a vessel ? — |A. Last summer, and for two days this summer. Q. ^Vhere did you so flsb last summer ? — A. All up and down the |coastof Maine, and right in within 3 or 4 miles of Monhiggin. Q. I am speaking of the three-mile limit. — A. It might have been 3 |or I miles off shore. Q. Do you not know that this is a very vague statement ? Will you [swear that you fished last year along your coast and caught mackerel within 3 miles of your shore ? — A. Yes. Q. To any extent ? — A. No, I won't say that. Q. What proportion of your catch last year was takeu within 3 miles |*f your shore ?— A. Well, a very small proportion. I was only so lish- pgavery short time. Q. The great bulk of the catch off the American shore is taken from 10 to 50 miles out ? — A. I do not know about that. WT* 'i^^-4 . <>^' .:H*sr-«"^ ijjll-l|»!,:,.„.CirS|3l!i 273G AWARD OF TllK FISHEWY COMMISSION. I ; Q. You «1() not know wliothoi- this is the crtso or not!— A. 1 di, ,1,,^ know about that n)att(;r. Q. Wluit otluT linio (liVCl.Mlta'^«!l lory lon'l li'Oii ]\k tliiit IViutM'i*"'" |,\ like « Ye llR'i-e «i lliUveiv tiikeu< 2737 Q, Will you tell oie how you estiinato this — that about "2'* per cent, of voiir sti|)i)ly will come from the bay and T'l per cent, from your shore, jt you do not know the number caught? — A. I do not know dullnitely ; I ("lo not Huy that 25 per cent, would come from the bay but it would be iiliout tliiit— W or 30 per cent. il tlow is it possible to give a percentage if you do not know the iiumiIht of barrels caught ? — A. 1 have not made an estimate of tlie iiiiiiibtT; I makeup this estimat*^ from what I have seen of vessels cuiiiing ill from the bay and from the boat llshing. Q. Do y«>u mean to say that you have come hero to make this state- iiieiit Imsod on no certain knowledge of any kind, and that under these (irciiiiistaiici'syou swear to the percentage that will come from the bay, when you do not know the number of barrels of mackerel which have ln'cii t'iiii}jlit ill the bay ? — A. No; I do not conline mystMf to any per- {•\'i\U\\i*i ; but 1 give the best estimate 1 am able to form in this relation. (j. Is it to make a statement concerning matters about which you do iiDt know anything that you presume to come here and give tlie per- iriita^'e tliiit will come into the American market from the liay, and the iicrceiitiijie that will come from your own sliore, without knowing whiit till' catclH's have been in the bay, and on the American coast? Can any iiiiiii ill liis senses nuiko a percentage without any basis for it ? — A. I jiiit it l)y inquiring from i>arties who had been there. Q. Tell me how many l)arrels did you learn from inquiry hiul bot'U taken on the American coast ? — A. 1 cannot tell you. Q. Uow many, did you learn from your inqi.iries, were taken in the baj.'— A. Well, a large portion of the mackerel which has been caught this year in the bay has been taken by your boats, and they come into our market. When I speak about mackerel coming into our market troui the bay, I mean that your folks ship them. Q. I want to And out how many barrels these people told yon came jfrom the bay, so as to enable you to form an opinion as to the jH'rcent- ai;e!— A. Well, I would not confine myself to any rule about that mat- per. (I In point of fact, after swearing that 75 per cent, of the mackerel [will come from your shore, and 25 per cent, from the bay A. I beg foiir pardon. Q. 1 take it that in giving me an answer to any sort of a question, on are swearing to snch answer? — A. I did not speak so precisely. Q, You understand that you are answering questions under oath ? — Yt... Q, Will you tell me what earthly basis you have for saying that only [J per cent, of your supply of mackerel would come from the bay, and |o per cent, from your own coast? — A. I say so from information that I ive ijathered from parties who have been there. Q. What information is that? — A. It is that there has been a large ltd) of mackerel taken by the boats, up and down and around the laud; it has been a very large catch, an exceedingly large catch, and iiuusually large catch. I do not know whether this is so or not ; I ive not seen the catch, but it is on that report that I base my estimate. [Q. xVnd because there has been an unusually large catch in the bay, p say that 25 per cent, of your supply would come thence ? — A. I an the catch by the boats — the small boats — and not by our tisher- jn, |li. And this mackerel goes to the American market ? — A. Yes. Q. You have heard this, and do you give that as a reason why only 172 F •?;■*« 'to •»•• «•>;... ••*. *il>'«. 'M& I '. ■ ' ■^-^. M M 1 ■ , ■ ::P ynj % 'i'^ ':.'^ ... I ■ „s£ "^-^ ^■■m • : li ::rUvid^l 2738 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. -A. No; only partially. I saw 25 per cent, of your supply should coino from the bay, and 7") por cent from your own coast ? — A. Yes. Q. I could understand it if you reversed tliopercentap;es ? — A. li'v,,,, saw r»0() sail of seiners off Cape Ann, you would begin to think that though they all got only 100 barrels apiece, still a great inaiiy tjsii woidd be taken. i}. l)i«l all these vessels get 100 barrels apiece? — A. 1 do not think that they did ; I say, if they did. Q. Will you swear that 15,000 barrels of mackerel have b»'on eaiirr|it ou your .!oast this year ? — A. Yes, I swear so ; I have not swn the flguve^j to make up statistics on, but I make them up on my own jiulr. mcMit ; yes, sir. Q. Did you see the lish being taken ? some taken. tj. You are speaking at random altogether ? — A. I have no statistics, Q. Because you saw the seiners, you say that they must taUc so inncii without any incjuiry as to the facts? — A. I have seen them taking lisli more or less. Q. Do you swear that l.">,000 barrels luive been taken on your shorf this year? — A. No; 1 wojld not swear that liijOOO barrels have Um taken. ii. You will not swear wliat cpiantity has been taken ? — A. No; to the best of my opinion ir>,000 barrels have been taken. s. Q. Why did you take out a license ? — A. We did not know wlim mackerel were when we got through the Gut of Canso, and so \vetlii)ii| we would take out a license. Q. Do 1 understand you to say that ou coming into the biiyyoo IS J , 'i*- Voii did „ lintlii/ij.- j,r(>vin ''•• J'id you (M ;'■ 'f'o't', but ^L'.von sceji '^^ off the Ai 'Y 'l'"' ffonc i 'I' U here do ird.slijngtoget a Yi'i'y m AWARD OF THE FI8HKRY COMMISSION. 2739 not know wlietlior the lish would bo iiislioroor oil" shore? — A. No; never saw llie iiiiuikcrel inshore until I inade n»y hist voyajje tliere. tl think. ,roe lii>iiil« ainctl a lands aiiilj louttliei 0. Is it a t'aet, that you do not know when you enter tlie bay whether loNlsii are inshore or not ? — A. No. 0. You made your last voyajje in the bay in ISTl ? — A. Yes. 0. Ami that was the only time when you ever saw the iish inshore ? — A. Vos. Q. Il'tiiat was the case, what induced you in 1S08, six years previously, to take out a license, when you did not want to go inshore at all? — A. Tliorc bad been some trouble, and a license had beeu demanded once, I think. Q. \Vh(Mi you liadonly fished oil' shore? — A. We did uot know about •lie mackerel beinj? inshore. {}. Is it not necessarily a privilej^e to be able to follow the mackerel ffluMi tliey run inshore in the bay and wherever they may j?o ? — A. Yes. (}. If successful, is it tiot a privilege to be able to follow the schools fflil'iever they may go ?— A. Yes. Q. Ill that view of the matter, the right to (Ish inshore in the bay is vi'iy important to the American people ? — A. Yes. Q. Could they, in your opinion, sucees-- idly prosecute the fisheries in till! Itay without the right of going irsliore to fish ? — A. As far as my Mperionce goes, I think that this is not necessary. VVe always got the liiincipal part of our fish olf shore; and 1 think the oll'-shore fisheries almn' a,st month I [""'6 east side 01 [eban,ly. ^^j { ore ou the on [""' ' til ink. P'^otlieseboal AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2741 Inbcr will Iv, Abontj tliese 34 . house i^ ■ of tbel ;\vatet"j fvom yoii to al)oi^ will seiii to market? — A. No; this is just for these 4 stations, ami what I gather ill from surrounding boats. Q. How many barrels in all did you send from your own stations last ygiir»_ A, A little over 2,000. ' Q. Tlie catch is better this year than it was last? — A. Yes; very much better. Q. Have you any vessels fishing? — A. Not from that point, anything to speiiif of; we have, however, some very small vessels, which are little liiiji-er than boats. Q. Describe the size and character of those boats of yours. — A. They vary very much ; a small proportion of them are what I call large boats, wliicli will go off for three or four days, or for perhaps a week ; and on wliieli tlie men can cook and sleep. They are open boats, but still large eiioiijjli to accommodate three or four men, for cooking and sleeping on lioanl, and salting fish. A small portion of them are of that character, ami the size ot the others varies from that down to small boats of 15 and 111 feet Keel. Some of the boats go out and in perhaps two or three times a (lay; and others will go out and remain out a week. [\. Describe the way in wliich these boats of yours fish in the different parts of tliti season; how far fronj the shore do they usually go to catch mackerel .' Tell all you know about that, from what falls within your lurMinal observation. — A. It is customary for these boats to start early ill the luoruing, and perhaps they will go off" shore for a mile or lA miles, iimlconie to try for mackerel, and throw out bait; and if they do find mackerel there, why tliey stay there; but if they find few mackerel, or iioiio there, they go out fartiier. Some will scatter off', while one or two nay lish within one or 1^ miles of the shore, another boat will go half a uile farther out, and another half a mile fartiier still — they scatter in hat way. There is no uniform rule for taking up their places ; but this s generally the way they do. Sometimes, when they find a school, all I the boats will gather in together; but if they merely pick up mackerel, thpy may be half a mile, a mile, or two miles from the shore — stretched loiitaloii},' the shore. Q, How far is the farthest distance from the shore to which these lio;Us usually go ? — A. They will go out perhaps for 7 — 7 or eight miles ; li miles, I sho'ild say, would be about the greatest distance, speaking for jtlie point wliere I am located. This varies in different parts of the island. jAt some j)oiuts on it they find the fish plentiful quite near the shore, laiiilthen, perhaps, 15 or 20 miles along the shore from that point, you hill have to go farther out to find them. I suppose that this depends |foiiie\vliat on the character of the bottom and of the curves and tides ; lilt is the way they fish. In the warmest weather, in midsummer, the fell are nearer inshore in my experience, and towards the fall the fish- jiriaeii have to go farther out for them. When the weather gets pretty (iiijli iu the fall the small boats do not go out, but the larger boats go \i longer distances. ^^ How far out did the boats go during the past month? — A. During 111' past month I have not been aware of any fish having been caught |i tlie east side of North Cape, except 4 or 5 miles out ; but on the other |leof North Cape, the west side, they were taken nearer inshore; this ! almost always the case in the fall — on the one side the fish are then ►ken at a longer distance off' shore, while on the other side they are lite handy. This depends on the wind ; a west wind drives the fish iisliore on the one side and oft' shore on the other. They go with the N, I think. V\' Do these boats usually fish drifting or at anchor ?— A. They almost "-"^•,*»>-*». ■liiL-Llli-tiiiiaiiii ' ■ Us i(' ».*% '1 '"'Ml " w ;pi € '\ ;. ;-'^, A Wmt' .r< IP ;) '\-i}:,sMl W^ 2V±2 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. always fish at anchor, and very rarely drifting, unless it is at a very moderate rate. Q. Do these boats catch their mackerel from the bottom ortlietopnf the water? — A. They may sometimes have to take longer lines and tish from the bottom ; and then again the fisli may come for a little whlk up to the surface. I think that this season — during the liittor parrm' it particularly — the men have fished nearer the surface ; the lish have come up, but they -have been very delicate about biting; it was banl to make them bite any way; they came up around the hooks and ate up the bait that was thrown to them ; but they did not like the look ot'tlie hooks, and they avoided them. Q. What bait do you furnish your boats with ? — A. Herring mostly, and sometimes pogies and menhaden. Q. Which is the better bait ? — A. Pogies. Q. W^hy do you not use them altogether ? — A. They come more tx pensive; wo have to get them wholly from the States, and tliey arotno expensive for boat-fishing ; and then this is lighter bait, it fioats on tlio surface. It is tatter, and it keeps the fish from going down. Q. You have seen, I suppose, the United States fishing schooners ti>li iug oft' your part of the coast ? — A O, yes. Q. At what distance from the shore do they fish ? — A. Of course tliis varies at different seasons ; but as a general thing the mackerel tLatiue caught inshore are smaller thau those which are taken outside. >(nv, this season, I have known vessels come in, but not a great many, and fish near the shore, within two or three miles off", fish awhile, and pet ;i I few mackerel, and on finding what their quality was, go oft' somewhi'iej else; sometimes, however, they get better mackerel inside. Q. Do the United States schooners usually fish as near the shore ;h I the boats ? — A. No ; this is not the case at the point where 1 am loeatwl j — decidedly not. Q. How is it that the boats can fish successfully where the vessels! cannot do so? — A. Well, a boat will go out and anchor down ; throw j over bait and take it very leisurely, sticking perhaps in the same spot j all day, or for a good many hours, and pick up a few mackerel, while 'ot| often, but they will do so sometimes. W^hen they cannot find lish anyj where else, they may come among the boats, put their anchors dowiij and spring up, as they call it, and catch a few mackerel; but theyi not make a practice of it, as a general thing. They may do this soiue^ times. Q. Taking the past few years, say the past four or five years, towlifij extent have United States vessels fished under your observation witliiT 3 miles of the shore ? — A. Well, during the past four or tive years, and during the past three years particularly, the fleet of American vessel! around the islaiui has been quite small ; this has been more particuiailj the case since the great storm. They have rather avoided lisliiu|i' iiw that part of the island since then. Q. What do you mean by the great .storm ? — A. I refer to tliestori^ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2743 ire had in 1873 — the Aufjust gale, wbich wrecked so many American sfliooiicrs about the island. Q, As yon have been on the island every year for somethinj;' likt ev- eiiti'i'ii years, yon inu.st have heard discussions as to the tiireo-niil' limit, (iiidsooii ? — A. Yes; I have heard a good deal vsaid about it. Q. Has your attention been drawn to estimate the distance from the sbore at wliich the three mile limit lies ? — A. Yes; 1 think that my Judg- ment is pretty good on that subject. Q. During how many months are your vessels employed in fishing ? — A, Well, cod and mackerel are caught for about 4A months in tlie year, uii ail average. (^>, And how long are mackerel caught? — A. For about 3A months. (), Wliatis a good catch of mackerel for one of your boats during tlie jfiisoii .'—A. I consider 7i> bfirrels a fair average; indeed, tiiis is a very jomi catch for the average. (^>. For three men ? — A. Yes. (), And what would you regard as a good catch for a single day ! — A. Well, Isliall say two barrels, from 2 to 2i barrels; and this is better iliiiii the average. (J. Where do all your fish go ? — A. To Boston and !New York, but to Huston more particularly. (^1, What is the largest number of barrels of mai'-kerel which ever went from your port to Boston during one year ? — A. iSonjething under 7,000, perhaps G,N()0. (J, Was that from yon personally or from your firm ? — A. Thiit was from me personally ; that was the catch for one year ; but I do not think that it all went down the same season. i}. But it all went down earlier or later 7 — A. Yes. (}. Has the boat-fishing been increasing since you began to go to the I island?— A. Yes; it has increased very materially. Q. And how has this been for the last few years, say since July, 1873 ? j-A. It has been increasing a good deal since then. Q. What kind of a year was last year for mackerel ? — A. The catch I was very suudl and light. Q. For boats and vessels ? — A. Y'es ; for both. Q. Did any vessels that came to fish in the gulf last year make any Inioiiey at all ? — A. I made inquiries in the States, and the result of what I could gather was that there was not a vessel which visited the bay [last year that made any money. Q. Do you know how the vessel-fishing has been in the bay during Itlie present season ? — A. Well, I do somewhat ; as I stated before, a few Ivessels have been around the part of the island where 1 am located. I |liaveseen some vessels there, but the number has been small. Q. As far as you know, what has been the result of the vessel-fishing lithe bay this season? — A. Well, I should think it has been light — Iquite a small catch. Q. Flow has it been with the boats ? — A. They have made a very fair Icatch this season ; this has been above the average considerably, I pwild think. Q. During the Reciprocity Treaty, Hiat is, prior to 18(50, were many jprovincial vessels fishing for' mackerel ?— A. Well, about Prince ICdward |lslaiid, there was then quite a fieet of vessels. Q. After the Kecii)rocity Treaty was abrogated, what became of pin .'—A. Well, they gradually abandoned that business, so that at p present time they have very few vessels of any considerable size fitted '•^•J*' '.V, 'r«4 >WtV>Tfj, 'fil -■.^■^/ -K-'iliI 111..,,. T '-^ '1. ;' '■ I 2744 AWABD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. J!iil* 'S>i«i-Ms [m'f d ^LMi out for mackerel-fishing in the gulf; that is, from Prince Edward Island. I do not know how it is in this resi)ect with Nova Scotia. Q. And there are none now there? — A. The number of vessels of any considerable size there is now very few. Q. Do you know of any there ? — A. Yes. Q. Name them. — A. There is one, the Lettie, which my partner fits out at Charlottetown ; she has always been engaged in that business. She goes fishing for two or three months in the year. I do not know of any other, though I have understood that some others have beon fitted out after this purpose. Q. What view did you and your partner take with regard to sccuriiij; the fishery clauses in the Treaty of Washington ? — A. Well, we were very aw. .ions to have free fish. My partner took a more active part iu this relation ; he had more opportunity than I had for doing so. Q. He went to Washington i — A. Yes. Q. You did not ? — A. No. Q. What was the ett'ect on your business of the terininatiou of the Ite(ripiO<-it, Treaty, and the imposition of a duty on Canadian niackeivl ent' ii. American market? — A. Well, I cannot answer that qim- tion .".*' ■''! by saying that they had a very disastrous eftect on our bus' ,( Q. 1)1(1 you begin to feel the full effect of it at once, or did this tiikc someti '6? — A. No; during two or three years afterward we got aven good (it.i! '. -f ni ' ' rel, for which we obtained pretty good prices, so that we coaid afford : '^,■•■ the duty. Q. Were these curr^^uey prices ? — A. Yes. Prices then ruled pretty high ; that was a time when the price of everything was somewbat inflated. Q. 1 supi)ose that you may say either that prices ruled hijj;li or that cui rency then ruled low '! — A. Y"es ; you can look at it either way. Diit when we reached the year 1871, 1 think a good large catch was tliiii taken on the American shore, and a catch of poorer mactkerel on the island shore, and then matters turned the other way with us. Pria's were very low^, and we suffered accordingly. Q. What became of your business, in view of that large catcli on the United States coast '! — A. Prices went down very low, and we lost niouey very fast. Prices collapsed that year completely. Q. What would be the effect npon the business of your firm of puttinj; back the former duty of $2 a barrel upon mackerel sent from Prince Edward Island to the States ? I would like you to explain your views in this regard ])articnlarly. — A. Well, I suppose, since we have got our i business established there, and our buildings and facilities for carrying on the fishery, it would be difficult for us to abandon it altogetlier, but j we would then turn our attention more particularly to cod fishing, until i at any rate the mackerel season got well advanced and the mackerel became fat, and if any would bring a high price it would be those taken in the latter part of the season. We might catch some of them, Iiut we would not undertake to catch poor mackerel to compete with those j caught on the American shore. Q. Explain why not.— A. Well, No. 3 mackerel, which are poor mack- erel, generally bring a good deal less price than fat mackerel, and raenj do not catch any more poor mackerel than they do fat ones ; the cost of J catching them and of barreling and shipping them is the same, while j the fat mackerel bring a better price. We could carry on the codfishiujij business irrespective of the American market ; we could catch, cure, auilj ship codfish to other markets — to the West India markets, and we niiglitj AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2745 make a fair business at that; bnt as to catching mackerel exclusively uuder such circumstances, it would not do to depend on it at all. Q. How does Prince Edward Island mackerel compare in point of size and quality with those which are caught at the Magdalen Islands? — A. Well, ill tiie reports I have heard of vessels fishing at the Magdalen Islands and at the point where the mackerel are sold, they speak of the Magdalen Island mackerel as being much better and larger; that is, for the greater number of years. Q. Of late years, where have the best No. 1 mackerel been taken jljietiy ? — A. These are taken on the American shore ; they suit the better class of customers and bring the highest price. Q. Is there an inspector of mackerel on the island? — A. Yes. (l Are you a deputy inspector ? — A. Yes ; my name is on the barrels asitei)iit,v inspector and I pay my fees to the inspector general. Q. WlJo is he? — A. His name is Frank Arsenault; he lives in Prince Comity. (}. Wliat do you i)ay him ?— A. I think it is somewhere about 2 cents a barrel; it is not a very heavy fee. (). ]\h. Davies says that you are mistaken about that? — A. My books jliow tliat we have paid it every year, whether it is a mistake or not. I ohtiiineil permission some years ago to act as deputy insi)ector, and I bave paid my fees. (). Every year since ? — A. Yes, every year since, I think. I think my books will snow that 1 bave paid the fees every year, for live or six years. (^1. Yon have i)aid two cents a barrel ' — A. Yes, somewhere about tbat; hetween two and three cents. (). Js there any sort of doubt about your brand as inspector of mack- erel .'—A. No. (}. Describe exactly what you put on the barrels. — A. The brand is circular; the first words are, " Prince Edward Island,'- and the next, I tbiiik, are, »' Two Hundred Pounds — J. H. 3Iyrick, Deputy Inspector." 1 think this covers tiie whole brand. (^ Then you are deputy inspector de facto, whether there is law for it or not '.—\. I do not know what the law is about it ; but I know that I bavejjiiid my fees to the inspector-general. We have had a running acoiint with this man, and we have given him en been taken, because a dollar more a barrel was not then looked u|)on in the same light as at the present moment ; but now that is not the rasi', Q. Where do these high costing mackerel go ? — A. To the cities ebiitly, and hotels ; some private families possibly take a few, but I do not tliink that a very large proportion of them are used in New England. I tliinii that a good many go to Pennsylvania, to Philadelphia ; and to >'ew York City particularly. Q. At high prices will the ra.arket take a large quantify of the com mon grades of mackerel, which are used not in the way of luxury, imt for food '? — A. This would depend somewhat on the catch of lalie tisli and herring; a good many are nsed South ; and these come into com petition, I suppose, with the herring fisheries. I should sup|)ose that at the rate of $7 or $8 a barrel, the market would take a pretty good catch of mackerel, grades number twos and threes. Q. At what point will the purchase on a large scale of common mack erel cease for consumption t — A. I should think that if the coiniiiou grades of mackerel went in price above $10 a barrel, it would goprettv hard if any considerable quantity of them was taken. Q. When you go to Boston in winter are you in the habit of g:oinj as it was formerly? — A. The universal opinion among dealers in Xewj York and Boston and other places is that the demand for salt uiackerelj has fallen oft" a great deal. Of course, the number of inhabitants is iii[ creasing very rapidly, but the demand for mackerel has not iucreaswl in that same ratio, and there must be some cause for it. Probably tlicj catch of lake fish has interfered somewhat with this demand, andsbipj ments of fresh fish by rail has been extending farther into the country of late, besides. I Q. How far west are fresh fish sent ?— A. They are dispatched asfaj west as any one travels, I think, from what I have understood. Q. Ill « .1. Well, i and perlia Q. How it lias beei Q. Yfju ■ boats; hav iiot?-A. ^ tlie boats, 1 several yea coiisidenibl Q. How I during the J opiuioDs pn fflien they s tisliiiifr, w'liil Dver of a lar others again the lisli awa. is hard to fo' Q. Have y A. Xo, ||)t iij lish, but, as f Q. What h 'eiv England, but I think that very tew New England families lay in a bar- rel of mackerel for consumption. Q. Do you know what quantity of fish comes from the great lakes oi the West ? — A. I do not; 1 have heard the quantity stated (piite difier- ently, but I have uo data to sj)eak from in reference to this mattiM'. Q. Have you had anything to do with herring caught at the Magih- len Islands ? — A. Yes ; we lyive had a good deal to do with them. Q. What did you i)rocure them for ? — A. So far as I have obtaineil I them, it has been chiefly for bait, but I think that a good many of they herring have been exported from Charlottetowu to the West Indies I and the States. Q. Have you bought or caught them ? — A. I have done both. Q. Did you send your vessels to the Magdalen Islands i — A. Yes; with the means both for catching and buying herring. Q. At what rate can you usually have Magdalen Island herring del livered on Prince Edward Island ?— A. Well, for $1, or $1.25 a barrelj without the barrel. Q. Would the barrel be worth $ I!— A. The barrel and the salt for] packing would be worth about $1. Q. At what price, furnishing the barrels, can you obtain these fish!- A. We then pay about $1 for them. Q. Do you furnish your own salt ? — A. They are all salted. Q. And you can thus get them for that price f — A. Yes. Q. What would be the eflfect of a duty of $1 a barrel on pickled berj ring, as to the possibility of their being sent from the Dominion to tlij United States market? — A. Well, it American vessels had uo right tl . 0 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 274» tiglittil catch tlicin nt the Magdalen Islands, this might not affect their sale; butif tbey then came into competition with what the American vessels j,j,ijf|it, tliese flsh could not be sent there. q. Would this amount be a prohibition duty, in this respect f — A.. I should think so. Q. How was the removal of the duties on mackerel and other tish, ttiroiigli the Washington Treaty, regarded by the inhabitants of Prince Kdward Island ? — A. As far as ray observation went, they were very eager to have this treaty, in this regard, go into effect ; they thought tbiit tliiH would build up their business, and be of great benefit to them. Q. What effect, in your judgment, would a return of these duties l,ave»_A. It would have a very bad effect unquestionably. It would hurt the fisheries there, because a great many of the fishermen, and the tiest tishennen we have now, would then at once go on board of Ameri- can vessels, as they formerly did. A large number of the island fisher- men formerly fished in American vessels ; and a great many of them vouUl under such circumstances go back, while they are now carrying OD the boat fishery. Q. In your boat-fishing you use herring more than pogies, because the former are cheaper than the latter ? — A. Yes. Q. Can vessel mackerel-fishing be successfully prosecuted without [lOgie bait ? — A. I do not know but that it might ; but they never use anything save pogies. As far as 1 have learned it is very rare when they do otherwise. I have in one or two instances heard skippers say that if they used herring, .ind a great deal more of them, perhaps they could get just as good trips as with pogies ; but one might say that and abundred might say the opposite. Q. Iliive you the prices of mackerel with you ? — A. I have them for I a tew years — perhaps for the past five or six years. Q. Wliat are they ? — A. These are the net sales of mackerel in Boston 1 marlcet. Q. Are they the actual result of your business derived from your [books?— A. No; I cannot exactly say that. This is merely an esti- iDiate. Q. Mention the prices. — A. In 1876, last year, the average net value |of mackerel at the island was about $9, as the result of sales in Boston. Q. That is what you realized ? — A. This is about what we realized for |the catch. Q. Give the other prices. — A. In 1875 we make it about 811 ; in 1874, about 87.25; and in 1873, about $11.50. By lion. Mr. Kellogg: Q. Are these the average prices for all grades ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Foster : Q. Continue the list. — A. In 1872 such price was about $8, and in jS;i it was about $4.10. Q. What do you mean by net price 1 — A. This is the result after the «it, freight, duties, commissions, wharfage, and other exi)enses are lettled. i Q. The barrels and salt excepted ? — A. We do not take that. When leship a barrel of mackerel it is all barreled up and ready for market. iQ. The mackerel catch of Prince Edward Island for last year, 1876, is ftimated in the report of the Dominion commissioner of fisheries at >.383 barrels, and the export of mackerel for the same year is estimated |9,347J barrels. Then, of course, 16,000 barrels must have been con- ped at the island, if these figures are correct ; and I want to know ; '."•'■: ■;:'*■■ ,... ....■■J •It iif ifijB'' ^*fc ■ .Wi'< ,« ■m' &*•■"'?• •i'"''' iillnia^*. ;{•*■:<&%, 2750 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. liow far this corresponds witli your belief? — A. Well, I think that the figures for the exports are not acciurate, because I believe that hohk mackerel were exported for which the figures have not found tlicir wiiv into the custom-house returns. Q. What do you think that such exports from Prince Edward Islaml amounted to for 187(5? — A. 11,000 or 12,000 barrels ; 1 would not m that they exceeded 12,000. Q. Are you coutldent about that If — A. I feel very confldent about it, but I cannot speak positively in this respect. Q. Explain what your opportunities for obtaining knowledge oi: subject are? — A. Well, taking this matter one way, 1 Judge fion number of boats which I have engaged iu the mackerel tishery, aiidtiu' nunrber of boats which it is estimated is so engaged around tlio islaml. I take the average catch of the whole number of boats which it is I'sti mated to fish about the island, and from this calculation I estiiiiiitcthat the exports of mackerel would not exceed 11,000 or 12,000 barrels. Q. 1 notice that, in his report, the aggregate product of all tlie lisli erica of Prince Edward Island is valued at $494,907.08, and tiie total flsh exports are valued at $169,714, leaving for consumption on th' island, fish to the value of $225,253.08; what do you say to these li;'- ures for 1876 ? — A. The consumption of tish on the island, besides mack erel, is pretty large; the island people consume a large quantity of her ring and a considerable quantity of codfish; but I should think that these figures are rather astray. Q. How much are they astray, according to your best jiidfjmeiit! What do you say to the aggregate yield of the fisheries of Piince H ward Island for last year being valued at $194,907.08? — A. Fro' best figures which I have been able to make, I should not think exceeded one-half of that amount. Q. What do you say to the fish exports being valued at 81()!>,714;-| A. Well, I do not know that this is far astray. Q. Now as to prices; codfish in this report is valued at $4.2.") a bun dred-weight ? — A. Well, that is not very far out of the way. Cotl were I scarce and high last season, and that is about a fair figure. Q. The yield of the island herring fishery is estimated at lljSliO bar- rels for last year; you say that there is a large consumption of herring' on the island? — A. Yes; but they do not use much poor herring. Q. These herring are valued at $2.50 a barrel ? — A. I should tbiuk| that was a large estimate. Q. Mackerel are valued at $8 a barrel? — A. Well, that is notoutof| the way ; the price is small enough. Q. The yield of hake is estimated at 14,862 hundredweight, valued] at $2.50? — A. That is about wliat the market price was on the ishiiui. Q. The island yield of cod-tongues and sounds for last year is estij mated at 594 barrels ; what do you say to that 1 — A. That is evideutlf a mistake; I do not think that there were any i)roduced or sbipii* there last year — that is, any to speak of. Q. The yield of fish-oil is estimated at 10,487 gallons, valued at ' cents a gallon ? — A. The price is about 15 cents too high. Q. It is entered that 2,590 gallons of fish-oil were exported, and lti,4»| gallons produced ? — A. Tliat is too high a figure. Q. Do they use 14,000 gallons of fish-oil on the island?— A. Idonol think so; at any rate, so many gallons of oil as is there mentioned an not produced on the island, unless the figure is made up by importatio| from other places. Q. The return of the number of fishermen on the island h given i AWARD OP THE FISHEUY COMMISSION. 2751 |it, valuedj island. lav is«s"1 1 evideut'i laed at uid ItM^I . I do DC [tionedai iportatwj ,{.s.{I; wli»t «lo y^'» say to tlmt! — A. I do not know that this fljjnre if iiiitof tlu'i way. I (lid not Hupposo that there was quite so many, but this may l>e the case. (). Anordiiig to those figures, each flsliernian wouhl get )i<128 worth of tisli a year; what do you say to tliat f I notice that they are not so iiiDsperoiis as the tlshernien of New Hrunswi(;k, who are stated to have iiiiKJe a ("iteh of Hsli vaUied in all at $l,t>"»;i,(), it seems that they would earn $'tU) a head. — A. I should think tliat the Jigures for the Island were pretty Iiigh ; $'2^) a month would bo pretty good wages for fishermen there, for the season of four or four and a half months. (I What rA lliii >.>>^- mA ' 2762 AWAED OF THt FISHERY COMMISSION. will catch many more fish than others; but the best men will perhaps earn $125 or $130, while the lowest amount thus earned will ha perhaps $75 a season. Q. Is this when they are furnished with boats? — A. Yes, and with bait, being subject to no expense save that of feeding themselves, and they live very cheaply. Q. How long would be the fishing season during which tbey would earn $125 or $130 ? — A. Four or four and a half months. Q. Is there any winter employment on the island ? — A. O, yes ■ a great many of the younger men leave the island in winter, and go over to Mirimichi, N. B., and work in the woods, spending the winter there and returning in the spring. Quite a number do so. Q. If they stay on the island, can they earn wages in the winter?— A. A great many of these fishermen have farms, and in winter .some get out firewood while others get out ccoperage-stock, hoop poles, and staves. They find something to do in winter, but they do not earn a great deal. Most of them have farms — some small ones and some large ones. Q. What do you say about the value of mackerel swimmiiifj, where they are thickest f — A. I do not think that my head is clear enough to answer that question. Q. Have you ever known any place where the fishermen as a class get more than a bare ordinary living on the average? — A. Some of our fishermen are very well ott"; but then they have farms right adjoining the fishing grounds. Q. How good a chance have you where you are located of seeing the boats and vessels engaged in fishing 1 — A. I am there all the time, for four or five months, and I have an opportunity of seeing them daily from the time that I get up until dark ; I might constantly look oi}' oii the water during the day from where 1 am. Q. Could any one with a pair of eyes have more constant opportunity of seeing the whole thing than you have for 30 miles' distance ?— A. I do not think that any one has a better opportunity than myself for see- ing what is going on on the water for the four or five months that I am there. Q. I understand you to say that if the duty on mackerel was reim- posed in the United States, your firm would, except for a small portioDJ of the season, give up the mackerel business, and tarn your attentiouj to something else ? — A. That is my opinion decidedly. Q. If you could get rid of your property what would you do in that I event? — A. If I could get rid of it at anything like reasonably fair I value, I should then put it into the market, and go into something else.: Q. If you were going to carry on the mackerel fishery in vessels from Prince Edward Island, would you resort to the United States coasts at I all ; and, if so, why, and how? — A. Well, I think I should then be iai favor, for a portion of the year at anj' rate, of try;!«g the fishing on the! American coast, that is, if we could get captains and crews that wouldj like to follow that business ; and I suppose that a great many of themj would do so. Q. Do you mean with hooks and lines, or with seines, or with both?- A. I do not know so much about it as to say. I should want to studyl up this question before deciding on that point, because I think thaf seining is getting rather played out, so they say. Q. You think that it is ? — A. I think they have had pretty neai enough of it, and I do not know how profitable it would be to proseciit^ hook and line fishing there. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2753 io in tliat lablyfait! IbingelseJ gselsfroin' .coasts at' (beu be in! [ngouthe lat would! of theffl| botli'- J to stuJy| [bink thai l-etty D«! proseciitt Q. Here is au account of a Portland schooner M'hich got 1,265 barrels seining this year. — A. Yes ; but I think that is an exception. I do not tiiiiik that you would find a great many catches of that kind. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. You know all about the quality of the fish taken on the American coast ? You are well acquainted with this subject ? — A. Generally speaiiinff, yes. (I What proportion does the best quality of fish taken there bear to tlie poorer ones ? — A. Well, this season, of the best quality, as I under- stand it, scarcely any have been taken ; on that shore there has been a very small catch of very good mackerel this year; but this varies very materially different years. You will see by the reports of the inspectors, or by their returns, that a very large catch of number ones will have been taken one year, while perhaps the next year the catch may run very largely of number threes. The quality of the catch varies almost every year. Q. We are told that the first caught early in the season, both oft' the American coast and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, are poor ? — A. O, yes ; tliey are always poor in the spring, and then they gradually fatten up. Soiiie seasons they fatten up more rapidly than they do during other [ seasons. Some seasons good mackerel are caught in July and August^ I and in other seasons this is not the case. Q. Is the greater quantity of the fish that comes to market of the [inferior or of the best qualities? — A. As I told you, this varies very much. Some years the larger quantity will consist of the best qualities, land other years, perhaps the very next season, it will be the direct I reverse. By Mr. Foster : Q. Whereabouts on the American coast have the best mackerel been [found?— A. Well, I see by the reports of this season that this has been [at Block Island, and last year this was also the case, I think. Q. For a few years past, which have sold for the highest price — num- kr ones from the bay or number ones from the American shore? — A. ), their shore mackerel have been the best quality of fish. Q. Some one the other day produced a Boston paper of recent date, |ii which Prince Edward Island mackerel — some of yours, I suppose? — Very likely. Q. Were quoted higher than number ones shore mackerel ; what does lat mean ? — A. This is because they have caught very few mackerel of |oo{l quality on the American shore this season, but I am not speaking |l)out this season, but of other years; perhaps in that same paper, a fw weeks ago. Block Island mackerel were quoted a good deal higher 'ian bay mackerel ; but this season has been rather an exception to the liuary rule, and they have caught poor mackerel on the American ^ore, as I have understood. iQ. When is the time for the best catch over on the United States pre?— A. I think that it is over now, though they may get some good itches yet ; but this is hardly to be expected. |Q. And the season is over in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ?— A. Ves, sub- sntially so. Of course, the spring mackerel are (bin and poor wl'tivver they caught?— A. Yes. And very many more of them are caught off' the United States istthan in the gulf? — A. Yes; they catch mackerel earlier there. A 173 F 'WW^M n .>»i- ;:^ii i '"•iii'i 1 i ^;;i.- ■■■■ 0 ;- ■ f t ' 1:3?!L W-. IJ^ - ■^'T'i H>-it ^ijijn * *^fi ;,.fi«, •-^.... -^ SP"*- ii^pH^ ^M V flf'^IP iC^ ^-■■- ' n 2754 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. large catch of mackerel is taken south before we have them ia the bav at all. Q. I suppose that the season during which there is niackerelfishing both in the gulf and on the United States shore extends from the last of June until the middle of October ? — A. They commence fishing in the bay about the 20th of June, I should say. Q. When it extends from the 20th of June to the middle of October, how does the quality of the catch in the gulf compare with the qualitv of the catch off the United States coast for the same months from year to year ? — A. Well, during the last five or six years, I think the best i quality has been taken, I think, on the American shore, but I have known it to be right the reverse, and the very best mackerel to be taken in the bay. Q. Where do the best mackerel in the bay come from ?— A. Well, 1 1 do not think that the mackerel taken at the different places vary macii in quality; sometimes the best mackerel are taken at the Magdalen Islands, and sometimes they are got around the island ; and sotnetiines j away up about Gasp6 the very best mackerel are obtained; and some i times this is the case farther north. Q. When you speak of round the island, do you mean within three] miles of land, or farther rat? — A. O, well, I do not know that I had! either in view ; speaking as a general thing, the larger mackerel are| taken farther away from the shore. Q. The collector at Port Mulgrave, in one of his returns for ISijJ says that " the most of these mackerel" — that is, the mackerel he speaa of as having been caught by 164 American vessels — " were caught abonj Prince Edward Island, that is the smaller-sized mackerel ; but the besf and largest were caught at the Magdalen Islands"? — A. Well,I knowthaa one year, and perhaps more than one year, and during several years,] have heard it said by fish-dealers at Boston and other places that tbej got the better quality of mackerel from the Magdalen Islands. Q. I see that you are not going to run down Prince Edwcard Islanl mackerel? — A. No. By Mr. Dana : Q. I have understood that the mackerel as they grow fat in tl autumn leave the northeastern part of the gulf and go down tbroughtl Gut of Canso, and around the other side, and pass along to the soii!| ward, and are to be found oft" C£ i:8 Cod and other parts of the Americi coast for a short time in November and the latter part of October intf very best condition ; is that so ? — A. I have heard that stated, aiijj have known them to be taken around Cape Cod late in the season, even later than the middle of November; but after November, aiidal] the water begins to get cold there, they begin to get thin. Q. They then get thin again ? — A. Yes. i4. And those that come down from here and get there by theniiil of October have been reported as being remarkably good, and up to| 1st of November the fish are remarkably good ; and then, for that cfct it has been of fish, the market is not over in the United States? — A. Well, itis^' then over every year. Q. In the middle of October?— A. They get them there in netsJ so much with hooks. I don't think the mackerel take the hooJj. 311 are of the opinion thit they are not the same kind of mackerel different species. I have heard so. Q. Some think the mackerel have been fattened up in the bajj come down, and others think it is not so. But at all events yoiiri Taking the , n at Block IsJ '''■^'•el do not c! I'3^e favorabh ■ ^^^ore than t| '^ '«) that No 'fTrefewedto. '*»' apparently AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION.. 2755 fj^l so far as you have heard of the catch, have not increased ? — A. Xbey liave not. By Mr. Davies : Q. Practically the fishing off the American coast for the season is now over?— A. I think so. Q, There will be nothing more of any moment caught to affect the mackerel?— A. I should hardly think so. There has been such a thing, but as a general thing we don't look for mackerel after the middle of October. Q. This year has beeu better than the average of years at the island ? — A. I think it has. Q. Has it not been a very excellent year ? — A. I think that, consider- ing the prices they have got and the quantity taken, it has been a very excellent year. Q. As regards the quality of the flsh taken, what is the quality of the fish taken at the island this year? — A. The quality of the flsh has been poor. A very small proportion of the catch has been very good indeed; the rest has been poor, very poor. Q, Can you tell me what price you obtained for your mackerel this year!— A. The prices in Boston in greenbacks are for 3's from $9 to $9.50; 2's, from 112.50 to $13 ; for I's, so far as I have returns, from $16 to $18. Q. Are you selling at those prices or holding for higher ? — A. We are lling as fast as we can get them into the market. Q. I suppose you find no diflBculty in disposing of mackerel ? — A. No. 8 go very hard. Early ia the summer they were going pretty freely, better grades of mackerel have gone very fairly, in consequence of he poor quality of the mackerel caught on the American shore. Q. You say the mackerel market is a very sensitive market? — A. Yes. Q. It is regulated almost entirely by the supply, of course ? — A. Yes. Q. If there is a large catch prices fall ; and if a small quality of catch irices go up ? — A. That is the fact. What I mean by a sensitive mar- :et is this : There is a large fishing fleet, and of course the dealers are atching the fleet very closely to see what the vessels are doing, and if le reports are that they are catching mackerel the dealers will not |uy more than they can sell to-day, and if there is much stock in the arket it will have to be held. That is what I mean by a sensitive larket. Q. Then every year when the mackerel season is about half over the alers find out what the catch has been and is likely to be, and the ices are regulated by the conclusion they arrive at. For instance, if 16 fleet have taken nothing half the season, and are not likely to catch ray more, the prices will go up? — A. The dealers, I think, carry on le business differently from what they did ten or fifteen years ago. I n't thiuk as a general thing they stock up anything like what they merly did. I think they buy more from day to day. That is, 1 think lir experience for the last five or six or six or eight years has been it it has been a losing business to stock up and carry mackerel. . Taking the whole American catch, with the exception of those en at Block Island, do you mean to say that Prince Edward Island kerel do not compare favorably with them ? — A. This year they do pare favorably. More than favorably ? — A. More than favorably. What I mean ij is, that No. 1 mackerel caught on the American shore are very the bay W^ preferred to mackerel caught in the bay. They are of a different Its your "W^^'^l'P'^''®'*'''^'' ^^ ^^^ ^^y mackerel, and they are whiter, cleaner. fat in tl through tj to the sotti! Ihe Amerit October in stated, wi seasou, jer,audal jy the mil [audupto Ifor that CI IsVelljitis to iu nets.1 jhook. ^1 [ackerel ** >% 0 "1^ ti; .«if . Ik: ^0^^' 'V^ rL » w i '4 f if «\ I', 2756 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. and fatter ^sli. There are some localities where they won't buy bav mackerel at all if they know it. That is ia the State of Pennsylvania I heard a large dealer in New York say that his customers in Peunsvlva' uia would not buy bay mackerel if they could get any other; iufact would not buy them at all. Q. They prefer this different species? — A. It is a better flsli. It is a better, whiter, and fatter fish. Q. Your opinion is that it is not the same species as the bay mack erel ? — A. I have almost conie to that conclusion. I am rather iucliued to think it is a different species of fish. Q. You have examined them. What is the result of yonr examiiu tioni Would you say it is a different species? — A. 1 sbonld tliiiik.if jt," y-i:iW''<^;^ « • III * ^K^^SjM r-.»«s, "Salvia. „>' IP':" *L;' :■■'. #t H ■ '"^^^H pp|5i(«^*" "^■■•■•■ M"iM0^. ^■^IS fi-"- ■ .. « 4 ■ i-1 m^^s^k ' ' r 1'., -ll-Jt 2758 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. to the other side of the island and keep going round the island, or per" haps go to Magdalen Islands or Bay Chaleurs or Escuininac. Q. Would they comeback again that season? — A. Very likely. Thov keep cruising round all the time, as a general thing. If tliey go to Magdalen Islands and have good fishing they hang round there. Q. It is essential to the success of the vessels that they have the riglit to go wherever the mackerel are ? — A. To make it successful I should say so. Q. You were asked some questions with regard to the exports of the island and the provisions consumed and you said you thought thev were much exaggerated. What means have you of forming an estimate of the catch of mackerel, say in Kings County f — A. It was in 1S7C we were examining, I think. I know very nearly the number of barrels I caught and what I exported. Qc I am not questioning your own catch ; I am speaking with regard to the catch of the island. What means have you of knowing what mackerel, cod, or other flsh were caught by the people of King'sCounty, j for instance'? — A. I have not any means of giving an accurate state ment. Q. Were you there that year ? — A. Yes. Q. In King's County ? — A. I was there but not for the purpose of] making any special inquiries. The only knowledge I have is from whatf I heard and what I could gather as to the number of barrels the ditfer [ ent localities had taken. I cannot say I give it accurately, but I apj proximate it to the best of my judgment. Q. In that judgment you may be astray? — A. Yes, I may be astrad Q. You made a guess at it, judging it from your own business?— A, ij did very much so, and from what I could hear. Q. Do you know that there are fishery officers at Prince Edward Isl^ and, and have been since confederation ? — A. Yes. Q. Take Mr. Samuel Clark, fishery officer of Prince County; is liei respectable man? — A. Yes; very much so. Q. A man on whose judgment you could place some confidence ?-A In farming matters, yes ; not in fishing matters. Q. A man in whose veracity and integrity you would place coo| dence? — A. Yes. Q. He stands very high in the county ? — A. Yes ; and is very muc| respected. Q. Do you know that he made it his business to inquire at the diij ent establishments what their catches were? — A. I don't know tbatt did. I don't know that he ever inquired at my place. He might baij asked some of my men. Q. He might have asked some of your head men ? — A. Yes. Q. He would not willfully put down anything that he knew to 1 wrong ? — A. I should not suppose so. Q. He is not a man to do so ? — A. No. Q. In 1876 the exports are put down as of the value of 8lC9,00fl!J A. Yes. Q. That is probably below the mark, is it not ?— A. I should think| was not above the mark. Q. Quantities of fish leave the island, go to Shediac, and are shippj from there without being entered ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know that as a matter of fact ? — A. They always clearij the custom-house, but whether those quantities go into the retarnu Charlottetown I don't know. We generally take clearances atTignj and sometimes when the vessels are half or three quarters loaded, AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2759 8169,0001- lould think] are sliip! ?ayscleaii| the reW atTiH 11 wind springs up, they Lavo to go, and tbey are as liable to run into Sbediac as elsewhere and land their cargoes. Q. Those cargoes do not appear in the returns ? — A. 1 should be in- eliiied to think they do not. Q. You have stated that the jieople of the island consume large qimiitities of tish ? — A. I should judge they consume very little mack- erel. Q. You liave no means of knowing accurately 1 — A. No. Q. Tiiey live largely upon flsh f — A. Yes. Q. Have you examined the census to see how many families there are on the island ? — A. I should make a rough guess at 20,000. Q. When you say this is an exaggeration, it is a rough figure? — A. >'ot altogether. I know pretty nearly my own catch, and also what is caaght round that end of the Island. Q. I am not speaking of the catch ? — A. You have to get the catch to get the consumption. In knowing what my own place takes I have some better knowledge as to what the whole island takes than a person wbokuows nothing at all about it. Q. How many families do you say there are? — A. 20,000; I don'fc know that that statement is correct, for they are pretty large families generally. There ought to be that number with a population of one hundred thousand. Q. What quantity of fish of all kinds do they consume per family ? — [A. Tbey largely consume herring if they can get it. If they can get lerringthey don't care much about any other iish. All of our fisher- imen— and there are a good many of them — pick up a few codfish and [carry home, and it amounts in the aggregate to a considerable quantity. took that into account when I made my estimate. As a general thing lliey use herring. Q. But you are not prepared to say how much, or about how much, lach family uses of all kinds of flsh ? — A. No. Q. I want to know how you get at your estimate ? — A. I get at it cm estimating what my own boats catch, and estimating the catch of le island from that. Q. Those prices which you give for the years, from 1871 to 1875, are ley not cash receipts which you put into your pocket after paying all :peDses! — A. I make that as an estimate ; that is not the exact figure. only gave it considerable thought between yesterday and to-day. Q. You have a branch of your business at Boston ? — A. We have had. Q. You carried on business there and sold fish ? — A. Yes. Q, You bought fish on the island largely, and sold them there too ? — i'es. Q. Have you examined the statistics of the United States with a view ascertaining how many mackerel are taken on their shores ? — A. I ive every year obtained the returns of the inspector-general of Massa- lusetts. |Q. About how many are taken ? — A. I should say, on an average, Massachusetts inspection would average, perhaps, 234,000 or 240,000 Tels. |Q. Fish taken by American vessels ? — A. Yes. Altogether everywhere? — A. Inspected in the State of Massa- Mtts. That is the total catch of Massachusetts vessels, and perhaps De vessels from Maine which come there and pack out. Those are at are packed out by vessels in every district of Massachusetts. ' The mackerel fishing is in Massachusetts chiefly? — A. It is the fliog State for mackerel fishing. "'111 2760 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. What other statistics did you examine ? — A. Not those of any other State. Q. Does that return give you the quantity taken by those vessels on the American shore and the quantity taken on the British shore ?— a, There is no distinction made ; they are all put together. Q. When you said that one quarter of the aggregate catch was? taken in British waters, what did you mean ? — A. I mean by that, that if the whole catch of mackerel in the State of Maine and Massachusetts amounts to 280,000 barrels, and you add the Nova Scotia aiul Prince Edward Island catch, which might amount to 40,000 or 50,000 barrels that would be 330,000. I took one-fourth of that. It is merely an esti- mate. Q. You don't know what proportion of the fish are taken in P>ritisli and what in American waters ? — A. I can tell when a very small fleet comes into British waters and has poor success, that it will not add largely to the aggregate quantity. Q. You understand me to be speaking of the whole gulf and not of the three-mile limit? — A. I understand. Q. When you say that one-fourth only of the aggregate catch istalieu in British waters did you mean to include the catch taken by British people, or did you mean that the Americans themselves catch oue-fourth on our shores? — A. I mean to say that aside from what are caught by American vessels, what are caught at Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, which are the two principal places where mackerel are taken by their own people, amount as near as I can estimate without going into figures, to one-fourth of the gross aggregate catch. Q. There is a little point regarding which I wish to put myself right] before the Commission. I stated the other day here that there was inspector of fish on Prince Edward Island. Now, have you paidany in I spector for the last two or three years since confederation ? — A. I aiu| very certain that every year I paid the inspection fee to the general in- spector of Prince County. Q. Since confederation ? — A. Yes. I talked the matter ovei' this sea-j son with my bookkeeper as to whether it was best to pay that agaiD,| and he concluded it was. Q. It enabled you to send your fish into Massachusetts. You arei deputy inspector and you put your brand on your mackerel as sncb, audi it is a benefit in that way to you? — A. I consider it so. Q. If it was not a benefit you would not continue it? — A. Idoi think it is worth while to disturb the thing at all. I never saw thathij was very reluctant to receive his fees. Q. From your knowledge of the people of the United States and tbos< engaged in fishing, are they anxious to have the right to fish in oni waters — are the people greatly anxious to have it ? — A. I don't koffj what the feeling is at the present time, but in former years, from conve^ sations that I have had with them, I should say that they were anxioust have the right of fishing here, particularly those having expensive yel sels here. They want full range of the whole waters of the DominioiJ and, of course, those who own expensive vessels do not want them to I disturbed by cutters. Q. It was looked upon as a valuable privilege — the right to comein| the gulf and fish ?— A. Yes. Q. Near the shores ? — A. Yes. There was a great difference of opU ion among fishermen and among skippers of vessels about it ; some d| not seem to care much about it and some did. Q. That accounts for the fact that some of the witnesses have AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2761 i any jlson !-A, tiiken if the lusetts Priuce javrels, an esti- British all fleet wot add 1 not of , is talien y Britisli ue-fourtli saiigiit by , lud Jlova 1 taken by ;oing into yselfiigiitl >re was no] laidanyin- ■A. I ftittl general iu- lev this sea-j tbat agaio, Yon are| IS such, aud IV. I ilo "oi haw tbatli^ tlmt tbej' (jaugl t fish around Prince Edward Island and some did not ? — A. A good many men fishing in American vessels, |)erhaps, were natives ofthe island, or natives of Nova Scotia, and familiar with those shores. Of course, those would fish where perhaps others, such as Cape Cod vessels, would not. for they did not care so much to come into t'le vicinity of the land. Q. The island skippers would come close to the shores of the island, while others would keep out I — A. Yes ; those who were familiar with all the harhors and bays round the island, particularly those familiar with the harbors, for they would want to make for the harbors iu a gale of wind. Those familiar with the harbors would not hesitate to fish round the shores, but a great many would hardly care to fish round the bend of the island at all. Q. Those not acquainted with the place? — A. Yes. Q. You have never fished at Magdalen Island yourself? — A. No. (j. You confine your operations to Priuce Edward Island ? — A. Yes. (I Your fishing stages are round the island ? — A. Yes. Q. You prefer to remain there ? — A. That is where the outlay has been made, and I would not care to extend it. Q. You would not care to go to Magdalen Islands and start business there '—A. I would not. I don't, however, pretend to .know anything about Magdalen Islands. It may be a better place to fish, but any one who has made a large investment at a certain place would not care to ex- tend it or change it. It takes a large amount of capital to get an exten- I sive fishery started. You have to have a good many buildings, grounds, i and wharves, and other accessories to make it a success. Q. You were speaking about the ellectof the United States imposing laduty on herring. The United States market is not the sole market for Iterring? — A. No ; by no means, though it is a very large market. Q, So if they did impose a duty amounting to prohibition they would [themselves suffer as much as anybody else ? — A. It would not destroy ! fishing altogether, of course. It is very desirable, however, to have [all the market you can get for your fish. Q. And it is very desirable for the consumer to have all the fish com- lio^iu that he requires ? — A. Yes. Q. What is the price of pogies? — A. I think about an average price Iwiild be from $4 to $5 a barrel. Q. Where; at the island? — A. In Boston. P>y Mr. Foster : Q. What are pogies worth in the island ? — A. The cost to bring them fcy steamer would be about 50 cents a barrel. If they charged for them ||5iu Boston they would cost $5.50 landed at Charlottetowu. Q. Suppose the three-mile line marked out by a line of buoys so that Ivery one could see when he was in and when out, and there was no dan- lerof molestation outside, how important do you think United States flsh- pmeu would regard it? — A. Well, I cannot say. I should suppose they onld, of course, attach some importance to the privilege of coming jishore, but I don't think that it would stop their prosecuting the fish- nes m the gulf. IQ. What was the real thing that made our peoi)le anxious about |;o comein^is? for you know. What was the real trouble that made them anxious mt the removal of the restriction ? — A. Well, they want to come kre without the expense of a license, and want to be free from annoy- ice from cutters, and, of course, they want to go where they please. w don't want to be restricted. If they find mackerel at any place, ley want the privilege of catching them. ice of on ; somedi Is have sa '■««r.5««',? '*'?:#.-. ^^v.- P:'--^ 1 !■ !. I 1 I it^si ?•■•. •§ '1 I M 2762 AWABD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Do you think the United States mackerel fleet conUl afford to par a license fee of $2 a ton, which was asked in the year 18US .'— .\, i should not suppose they could. Q. As a matter of money, was it worth that 1 — A. I should not think it would be. Q. When the license-fee was fifty cents a ton, did they nearly all \m- it ?— A. I think they did. Q. And when it was $1 per ton 7 — A. I think some paid it. Q. And when it was $2 per ton ? — A. I think they generally took the risk, or else kept out to sea and did not frequent the limits. Q. Then, in your judgment, $2 per ton is a higher tariff' than the privilege is worth in money ? — A. Most distinctly it is, taking the tbrpe last years as a criterion. Q. Go back to the years when it was put on. — A. I should say, to give my own opinion, it would be prohibitory, even taking the whole range of the years ; but for the three last years there has been scarcely a vessel that has made any money, though having free access to all tlie shores and bays. Q. Now, if a man's vessel got seized, how much difference would it make whether it was seized rightly or wrongly ? — A. If seized ami ile tained for any time, it breaks up the voyage and the men would leave, and it would be a ^at disaster to the owner in every way. Q. If he had every advantage ? — A. If everything was favorable. Q. And supposing litigation in the admiralty courts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick was not costly ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know about the sale of fresh fish in Gbarlottetowii ; vour firm sells it ?— A. Yes. Q. Do you know how much mackerel they sell ? — A. Not persoually. I am told the amount is very small, except fresh mackerel — they sell a good many fresh. Q. You were asked whether you would come to the gulf on mackerel j fishing exclusively, if you were excluded from the three-mile limits! Suppose you were located in the United States, and had the benetit of fishing on the United States shore, would you send a mackerel scbooDer down here ! — A. 1 do not think so, from my personal knowledge of the] matter. Q. Your firm is established here, with a property that cannot be rej moved? — A. It cannot be removed. It is a large iuvestraeut— the] accumulation of many years. Q. Are not United States mackerel schooners generally abandouingl the gulf fishery ? — A. It would seem so from the experience of the last[ few years ; but they may take hold again. If mackerel should appeiu in large quantities in the gulf, and there was a scarcity at home, tber| would come here again. Q. Wherever there is a chance to make money, there enterprise wiii be of course. — A. There have been seasons and sections of seasons per-j haps years ago when mackerel were scarce and they ma fronil Newfoundland and the Bay of Fundy. Q. What I want to know is this; if, when mackerel are at ■ ertain price, the people resort to other kinds of food that are cheaper ?— A, Yes. Q. In regard to the market for fresh mackerel; when did that markel begin to expand, the fish going from the sea shore by the railways ove the country ? — A. It has been growing very rapidly for the last 12 or 1 years, say for the last 12 years. Q. Is it now growing or not? — A. I think it is growing. >v ms AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 9 7G5 (». How far do fresh mackerel go? — A. I doii'h know there is any limit. (J. 1)0 joii know of any fresh mackerel bein^j carried to California from our Vide .' — A. J shonld think not. I don't know but they ini;;ht carry it. (^). Tiiey send lobsters canned? — A. And they send fresh salmon in cans from California here. Q. Accordinj; to your experience, how far up and down the ISIississippi Vulley does the fresh lishgo? — A. It goes to Chicago and Milwaukee and other Western points. Q. You have been engaged in the mackerel and cod-flshing at rrince Kdward Island for a good many years, and you are located there. Have vou ever attempted to cure codfish in tho way tiiey are cured for foreign iiiaikets, for warm climates, such as the West Indies ? — A. I cure cod- (isli almost exclusively for foreign markets in warm climates. il Is that done very extensively by any excei)t what are (ialled Jersey- men?— A. It is. Q. Have you always done it ? — A. I have done it for 12 or !;> years. Q. And always exported to foreign markets? — A. Yes, almost always. Q. Did you ever find a market for that kind of cured lish in the United >^tatcs ? — A. For the large fish we do. (}, Cured in that way '. — A. Yes; for the large fish, but it is a small proportion of them. No. GG. CiiRESTEN Nelson, of Gloucester, Mass., fisherman and sailmaker, was called on behalf of the Government of tho United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Dana : Question. What is your age? — Answer. 52 years. Q. You are a native of what country ? — A. Denmark. Q. You now live at Gloucester ? — A. Yes. Q. And have done so tor how many years? — A. For about 30 years. i}. Do you recollect what was the first year you went into the gulf lishing?— A. 1851. Q. Did you go cod-flshing part of the season ? — A. Yes. Q. Then you went into the gulf? — A. Yes. 0. How many trips did you make that year ? — A. Two. Q. What did you catch the first trip ?— A. The first trip we caught 30O barrels and the second 325. Q. Did you catch those outside or inside ? — A. The first trip we caught iiciii entirely out of the limits; the second trip we caught as far as Margiiree; I think we got a very few inside the limits. Q. Uow many do you suppose, out of the 325 barrrls, did you catch t Margaree inside? — A. I should think from 25 to 30 barrels. Q. lu 1852 were you cod-fishing in the early part of the season and itterward in the bay ? — A. Yes. Q. How many trips did you make ? — A. One, and caught 350 barrels. Q. Of those how many were caught inside ? — A. I could not say very correctly, but T should say from 20 to 30 barrels. Q. In 185 \vhat were you doing? — A. I went into the bay in July ; 1 1 was not fishing in the spring; I was working at sail-making. Q. And how much did you get ? — A. 180 barrels. Q. Where?— A. Off on Banks Orphan and Bradley. There were Inoiie caught inshore that year. We did not so catch any; and there [were very ft mackerel in the bay that year. Q. Was this ^-our last trip ?— A. Yes. -4^. A: ■».0r ^ • V M Slk'-:'^ -^ K .ff Si4i 2766 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Now from your experience daring those years, what do you think of the inshore fishery in the bay for such vessels as are sent out from Gloucester ? What is the value, everything considered, of tlio inshore fishery in the bay for such vessels as are used in the States ?-.A. i should not consider it worth anything. Q. What are your objections to it ?— -A. It is very dangerous to fish inshore ; our vessels are largo and they want to be off shore in case a storm should come up. Q. In your experience you found thjit there were plenty of fish off shore f — A. xes, except ihe last year ; there were not any fisU in the bay that year save very few. Q. You are a sailmaker, and in 1853 you went back to your trade ?- A. I went into business in the fall of 1853. Q. And followed it up until when ? — A. 18G4. Q. After that did you go into the fishing business, not as a fisheriiiau but as a dealer?— A. Yes. Q. Had you a partner 1 — A. Yes ; Sargent S. Day. Q. What was the style of your firm ? — A. Nelson & Day. Q. How long were you in it? — A. F om 1864 to 1809. Q. Do you count 1864 and 1869 ? — A. Y«8; that is, I came out in the fiiU of 1869. Q. You are an outfitter and in the fishing business ? — A. Yes. Q. How many vessels did you usually manage? — A. We had six, Q. Were you interested in all of them? — A. Yes, I thiuk so; all except one. Q. Some you owned ? — A. Yes. Q. And you were interested in all of them except one ? — A. Yes. Q. In these cases had your skippers shares in the vessels? — A. Yes; they invariably held a small portion of chem — one quarter or something like that. Q. Is it customary in Gloucester for the skippers to take shares in vessel? — A. Yes. Q. Is it to the interest of the owners to interest them in their business in that way ? — A. Yes ; very much so. Q. When the owner makes such an arrangement with a skipper, giving him a share in the vessel, one-quarter, one-eighth, or one-half, liow do they carry it out? Is the skipper entered at the customhouse as part owner? Has he a bill of sale ? — A. In some cases this is done, but not in all cases. He sometimes receives obligations, to be given iu a bill of sale when it is paid for. Q. He sometimes has a bill of sale, and gives a mortgage back ?— A. Yes. Q. And sometimes a private agreement is made to give hiiu a billofj sale when he pays for it ? — A. Yes. Q. While you were engaged in the fishing business during these five or six years, were you cod-fishing as well?— A. I was some early in tbej spring, but I was principally engaged iu the bay fiisheries, that is, tliaj vessels were principally sent to the bay. Q. Were you fishing off the American coast at all ? — A. No, not niucli^^jy^ except at George's Bank. Q. How did your bay fishing t'rn out? — A. Very slim. Q. Did you gain or lose by it ?— A. We lost by it. In that time ^ lost about all we had put into the concern. Q. How much did you put in ? — A. Somewhere in the viciuity $15,000, 1 think. Q. In what business had you made that ? — A. I mi^de it principallj J it<)» AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2767 bv sailinaking, though this was not the case with the whole of it. I niado some by doing other business attached to my sailinaking business. Q. You put in a capital of about $14,000 or $15,000?— A. Yes. (). Did you lose it all? — A. No, not the whole of it, but very nearly all. y. To what was the loss due; the shore fishery, cod-flshing, or the bay fishery?— A. Well, it was due to the bay fishery. We sent our vessels to the bay expecting to get something out of it, and we did not succeed. Q Have you your books ? — A. No ; what books I had were burned np last year when I was burned out. Q. During the time you were so engaged, how was your Bank fishing — fiiir?— A. Yes ; it was fair. Q. How did your shore fishing turn out? — A. That was very good. Q. Have you done anything in the fishing business since 1809 ? — A. Q. You then went back to your other business again ? — A. Yes. Q. How often does a fishing schooner need a new suit of sails on the average, if she is well handled and well managed ? — A. By good care a good suit of sails will last two years. i\ And this requires good care ? — A. Yes ; I have known some cases vhere a new suit of sails was worn out in one year. Q. Does a suit of sails last a fishing vessel as long as a merchant- man?—A. No. Q. A merchantman ssiils from one port to another, and furls her sails when she lies in port? — A. Yes; and they are generally unbent when the vessel goes into port. Q. While fishing vessels are at it all the time ? — A. Yes. Q. What did a new suit of sails cost during the war; not a fancy suit, but a foresail, a mainsail, and a couple of jibs? — A. For a vessel of 90 or 100 tons a suit of sails of that kind then cost about $2,100 or $2,200. Q, How is it now ? — A. The same suit would now cost between $500 and $000. Q. While you were pursuing the business, how much have you paid ootfor suits of sails on the average :--A. I guess they cost us, while I was in the business, about $800 a suit on the average. Q. What will rigging — running and standing rigging both, with blocks— delivered at the wharf, cost?— A. From $1,000 to $1,200. Q. I suppose that some parts of the rigging wear out more rapidly than others ? — A. Yes. Q. Is the same material used in sails for fishiuf vessels as for vessels [iuthe merchant service? — A. They are made with the same materials, ; sometimes they are not made out of the same materials. They are I made out of hemp or Eussia canvas. Q. IJussia duck ?— A. Yes. Q. And not canvas ? — A. Not cotton canvas ; they are made out of [cotton and hemp canvas. Q, Is any better material to be had for sails for small vessels than [Kussiaduck? — A. Yes; cotton is preferable. Q. Does it cost more ? — A. It did not cost much more during the war. <]. Cotton did not? — A. No; but cotton cost the most during the Q. Your sails have been made since the war, and for many years past, |oat of liussia duck ?— A. No. Q. Out of what, then ? — A. Cotton. ¥ f' Hi P f ... ■ J^i 2768 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I' Q. And that you think is the best material ! — A. Yes ; for our flsliinj vessels. Q. It wears the longest ? — A. Yes. Q. And yet it won't wear over two years ? — A. No. Q. You have had a good deal to do in fitting out vessels, &c. ; what I would a well-built vessel now cost, as she is launched, and what has such a vessel cost, say of 100 tons, built at Essex or Gloucester, on the | average during the last live or six years ? — A. Without rigging sails ? Q. Eigged but without provisions — what would she cost roiimll tackled, with sails and rigging ? — A. Such a vessel would be wonli | $7,500. Q. We will call it $8,01)0; suppose she cost this sum, what would het] depreciation be for the first year, if nothing extraordinary happcMis, f if she is kept in good order, painted, and the rigging rove whereverthijj was required ; what would the depreciation on her market value be in one year under such circumstances? — A. If I set it at $1,000 for the | first year, that would be a vei'y low sum. Q. That would be one-eighth of her whole cost? — A. Yes; aiitlthatl would be a very low figure. Q. W^hat do you think her fair average depreciation would be ?-A, I should consider that a fair average would be $1,000 for one year's i running from the time she first leaves the harbor; but it would go over | that. Q. It would more likely be more than less? — A. Yes. Q. What would it be after the first year, supposing she is kept in good | order all the while and suffers no extraordinary injury ? — A. Perbapsii might be $500 or $000 a year. Q. What is considered among i)er8ons who deal in these vessels tobe| the average life of a fishing-vessel, supposinj: that she is well built i well taken care of ? You count her as a fishing-vessel down to the! time when it becomes difficult to insure her, and so long as a company will take her as fairly qualified to make fishing voyages ? — A. Yes. I(lo| not know about this, but I have understood from the people iu Glouces I ter, who have figured it up, that the average life of a fishing-vessel is j fourteen years, but then I have never made it a study to find it for myself. Q. You take the current opinion in Gloucester on this point?-A,| Yes. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Do I understand you to say that fourteen years is the longest! period a Gloucester fishing- vessel lives? — A. No. I think tbat there j are vessels which are a great deal older, but on the average this isi the case. Q. How old have you known them to be run in Gloucester ?— A. Fori twenty-five or thirty years, I think, and perhaps longer. Q. For vessels accustomed to fish in the Bay of St. Lawrence .'-A. | Yes. 1 think it is likely they have fished there. Q. According to you, a vessel worth $8,000 would depreciate 81,01'i'J a year ? — A. Yes, for the first ye;ir. Q. And the next year she would depreciate in value $000 ?— A. Ye'l and I should think that would be a very low figure. Q. And the next year how much would it be? — A. Less. Q. Atwhat time would the depreciation stop altogether ?— A. O.w"' after a vessel has depreciated for 4 or 5 years, she does not dipreiiHel auy more for a number of years. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2769 Q. Does she get better after that? — A. I do not think she thea gets lauv better, but she does not afterwards show depreciation so much. I Q. Ill what does the depreciation, which you are plensed to put down |at $1,000 for the first year, consist ? — A.. Well, in sails and rigging and |\rear of the vessel. 0. If she is properly fitted out, how does it happen that the loss is bl,000 the first year, and why the suiall amount of $000 afterwards? — A. [siie luiglit not depreciate that amount, but any man knows that if she Kfasput on the market the depreciation would amount to $2,000. I Q. In other words, she would not be considered a new vessel, and Jtherefore she would not bring the same price as if she was just launched ? I-A. No. Q. Would .vou undertake to swear that a vessel at the end of her first year would not be as good a vessel, for all practical purposes, if not etter, i)erhaps, than when she was launched? — A. No; I would not linear any such thing. Q. Would you swt'ar that she then might be just as good ? — A. No ; [tliere would be wear and tear of sails and rigging during that j^ear. Q. Would there be any wear and tear of the hull if she did not meet [firb auy extraordinary accident ? — A. I do not know that there would beany particular wear and tear of the hull if she was in good order. Q. At the end of the first year, does not the rigging get set and does hot the vessel then work generally better altogether than at first ? — A. pVell, I do not think so. (I Have you any experience yourself in this respect? — A. Well, I kavebail some— a little experience, but not a great deal. Q. Do you wish to have the Commission understand that the usual talue of the ordinary fishing-vessels which run out of Gloucester to lish Id the Bay of St. Lawrence is $8,000 ? — A. Some are worth more than hat. Q. I mean on au ordinary vessel; is $8,000 the ordinary price for hemf— A. I do not know that this would be the average value today Jf the vessels which come in to the Bay of St. Lawrence. Q. I speak of 100-ton vessels ; do you say that this would be the av- irage value or tlie average cost of such vessels ? — A. It would be the |verage cost of a new vessel. Q. Do you speak of their cost as it was during the war, when built. Jigged, and launched, or as it is at the present time ? — A. I am speaking If the present time. I Q. Do you swear that au ordinary vessel of 100 tons, such as are used Gloucester for fishing in the bay, now costs $8,000? — A. In the liciuity of that— yes ; the cost would be $7,500 or $8,000. Q. That is at the rate of $80 a ton ?— A. Yes. Q. Is not that an immense price? — A. I do not think so. Q. Is that an ordinary price? — A. I think so; but I could not say. Iliave not bought any vessels by the ton. IQ. You see tliat if a 100 ton vessel costs $3,000, this would bo $80 a Iin!-A. Yes. IQ. Are you swearing as to the cost of vessels from your own knowl- hv or at haphazard ?— A. Yes. [Q. Then you swear that a vessel of that description costs $80 a ton » kV. About that — yes. Q. Did you ever build one yourself? — A. Yes. iQ. Is there anything extra about the building of these vessels f — A. 174 F 1 n il "1 '5 .»J ' 'ii i >.„' T Hal.^.-™|r^ai!<'*^l r : '" K.--- !!'Nm I- 2770 AWARD OF THE FISHEKY COMMISSION. is it? — A. Sometimes there is extra cost about them I iis we can Q. What think. Q. But ordinarily I mean ? — A. They are all built as well have them built. Q. Is such a vessel copper-fastened ? — A. Yes. Q. And coppered on the bottom ? — A. No. A. What is there extra about her ? — A. This is the co|)per fastening. Q. Does that cost very much ' — A. I could not say. Q. Although you undertake to say that this is the common price- $80 a ton — you cannot tell whether copper fastening increases the price materially or not ? — A. When we contract for a vessel we contract tliat she shall be built with copper fHStenings. Q. And you cannot tell whether copper fastening increases the price much or not? — A. Well, our vessels are all copper-fastened. Q. You cannot tell whether copper fastening increases the price or not? — A. I could not say how much. Q. Are you aware that vessels are now built in the States, which are classed for 10 years, and sold for $00 a ton ? — A. I do not know that. Q. Are you aware that 1,000-ton vessels are now built and classed for ten years, at that rate ? — A. I am not. Q. Are you aware that this is not so ? — A. No, I could not say tliat. Q. You are not familiar with this class of vessels? — A. I am uot familiar with that class of vessels. Q. When you speak of the wear and tear of these vessels, at wliat time do they come into the bay? — A. In July generally. Q. And when do they go out ? — A. In the last part of October. Q. What do you do with them for the remainder of the sea.sou ?— A, They go winter Ashing and shore fishing. Q. On your own coast ? — A. Yes. Q. How long do they fish there ? — A. During the winter principally, Q. During the whole winter? — A. Principally, yes. Q. Is not the whole or the chief part of this wear and tear sustaiuetl upon your own coast? — A. I do not think that it is. Q. Then you wish the Commission to understand that altiiough your vessels are only in the Bay of St. Lawrence during the summer luoutlij and the early fall months, all the wear and tear, or a large i)ortion of it, takes place there; and that very little takes place in the winter moiitlis on your own coast 1 — A. I do uot mean to say any such thing. Q. What do you mean to say ? I ask you whether such wear and tear is not chiefly sustained on your own coast when fishing in winter!— A, I suppose that more wear and tear is suffered on our coast in winter tiiau ■would be the case in the Bay of St. Lawrence in summer ; this would the case. Q. More than that — a*"^ not heavy snow-storms, aud frost, and raiu and wind then encounterr*! on your coast, and after they have been wet, does not the frost crack the sails ? — A. During a storm in winter tl)i vessels generally .seek a harbor. Q. But before they get under cover do not the wind and snow aud ici affect the sails? — A. I do not think that it would injure the sails to bavi snow aud ice on them. Q. Then I understand you to say that sails which get wet aud ai frozen are not injured by it ? — A. I do not think they are as long as the] are not used. Q. Then the sails which are wet and frozen and thawed out ajjaiii the winter are not injured by it, but they are injured by summer gali in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A. They are injured a great deal moi :> AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2771 liunei: gal' (leal luoi in the Bay of St. Lawrence by fogs and mildew. They mildew in the bay in summer. Q. Do yon swear that it is foggy in the bay in summer ? — A. Yes. Q. When is this the case ? — A. I have been there during three sum- mers, and it was then foggy there for a great part of the time. Q, For how many days on the average would it be foggy ? — A. That I eoiiUl not say. Q, How long would this be the case, taking the whole summer jlij.„i,ofii » — A. I would not pretend to say. Q. You swear that the fog does more injury to the sails in the bay tliaii the winter work on your own coast ? — A. I do. Q. You swear that such fog does more injury to them than the raiu and tlie ice and the snow on your coast ? — A. Yes. Q, And the freezing and thawing out of your sails ? — A. Yes. Q. And this does them more injury than the heavy gales which we all kuo« prevail on your coast in winter? — A. But they are not out in the link's; if they are it would be different. Q. I presume that they then are out? — A. Occasionally they might tkn be caught out. Q. And you swear that more injury is done them by fog in the Bay of St. Lawrence than is done by all these other effects ? — A. This would not 1)6 tbe case but on our New England coast, and more injury is done them by fog in the bay than by use on our coast. Q. Wbat is the average duration of this fOg in the bay in summer ? — A. 1 could not tell you. Q. Suppose that it last for only three days during the whole season ; would you then swear that this would do the sails more harm than the winter tisliing ? — A. No. I think there is more fog than that. Q. You swear that there is more than that in the bay ? — A. Yes ; I tan swear that there are more than 3 dsiys' fog in the bay in summer. Q, You swear this from your own experience ? — A. Yes. Q. How long do you swear the fog continues ? — A. I would not want [to swear to any particular number of days. Q. How many days do you think that this is the case during the sea- Ison ?— A. 1 think I might have been for a week at a time in a fog there. Q. Where would you be fishing then ? — A. On Bank Orphan. Q. Did you ever move off" the Bank at all during this time ? — A. We jogged about there and fished on the Bank, We did not go oft" the Bank. Q, Were you fishing during the fog ? — A. Yes. Q. Were those the seasons when you did not come near the 3mile iniit!— A. Yes. Q. If you could not see for a fog, how did you happen to know that [luwere not three miles from the coast? — A. By soundings. Q. Would the soundings necessarily indicate how near the coast you Fere?— A. Yes; most generally. Q. Do 1 understand yon to say that the water off Prince Edward ilaiid shoals off' exactly in the same proportion from one end of the M to the other, and that all you have to do is to throw out the lead to low exactly how far from the land you are ? — A, I do not know as it !s, but you can tell this pretty nearly. Q. And when you have sworn that you did not fish within three miles land, do you mean that the lead thus informed you as to the distance, id that you did not judge it from what you saw? — A. This was not fecase at that time. We were then off shore on the Banks. |Q. You were never inshore at all ? — A. Oh, yes. ^ZT^ ;^e^v-** ,..«a3 if-^si 2772 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Ill I lih Z^': *!i;>." Q. I,„ Q. III II Q. In II Q. Ii i4' i. ■■ Q. Q. Ii Q. 1 1 1 ' 111 Q. But you were uever inshore in a fog ? — A. Yes ; if we wei e iushore in a fog we would go into a harbor. Q. And you still adhere to your statement that this week's toir wouM do more harm in the mild summer weather in the bay than all the storniH and snows and rains on your own coast in winter? Did you not swear that the fog in the bay did moie harm to the sails and rigging ot the vessels, and cause more wear and tef«r than all the wear and tear of your winter work on your own coast? Did you not state that more wear and tear was caused by fog in the bay than by all the storms ou your own coast? — A. No; I did not s.'y that. Q. Did you not tell me so? — A. I did not say in the wintertime; I said while Hshing on the New England coast. Q. I will put the question again : Do you say that there is more dam age done the sails by summer weather in the bay than through wear and tear in winter on your own coast ? — A. I think not. Q. Did you not tell me a little while ago that more wear and tear was sustained by your vessels in the bay in summer than ou your own coast in winter?— A. Well? Q. Did yon not say that ? — A. 1 did not understand you. Q. Did .> ou not say that ? Did you say so or not ? — A. I did not put it so strong as that. Q. Was that what you said or not? — A. If I did say so I meant that one week's fog in the bay would do more harm to a suit of sails than would be done while lishing on our New England coast. Q. By all yonr winter's fishing? — A. I did not mean winter fisbiiij;, but the same aniount of time on our coast. Q. That is to say tliat one week's fog in the bay would do more harm than a week of winter weather on your coast ? — A. Yes. Q. But suppose you then happened to have for a week storms of suo» and rain, with frost, following each other, would this do more harm thaiij the other alternative? — A. Perhaps it would, but I think not. Q, You think that more damage would be done on your coast in ml weather as that ? — A. I do not understand >ou. Q. 1 understood you first to say that more damage would be doueiiij the bay to a vessel, taking the season through, than would be done oq your coast through all the storms of winter; and I understood you t«j give as your reason for this that there might be a week's fog there; andj now you say you only meant that if a vessel was in a fog for a weekial the bay this would do as much damage as during a week of wiuteif weather on your own coast ; will you swear that a week's fog in the bay is as bad, or anything like it, as a week's storm of rain and snow, wii frost and thaw following, one after another, on your own coast iu mDJ ter? — A. Well, I do not know that it would. I do not think thatii would. Q. 1 am told that there is no such thing as a week's fog in the ba.^ Tell me in what year you saw that fog ? — A. 1 saw it in 1851 aud i 1853. You were there in 1851 and 1852 ?— A. Yes. And in 1853 ?— A. Yes. You only saw it in 1851 ? — A. And in 1853 — yes. You did not see it in 1852 at all? — A. Ye<; we then had a too;, You saw it in 1851 ? — A. Yes. Q. During how long a time ? — A. I could not say. For a week ? — A. I think so, and more. More than a week ? — A. I think so. Ndid not \M I did. Q- Wbateve Q- In 1851, ' "ich money ?- Q- Where d States. Q- When ?— p2, and 1853. Q. Then yoi the spring. Ii- In 185;], V /f capital di( l.*^- Into wha !f ^"«l at thi <^ m I not '^■'ipss in 1853 ,9' When did m. ''^' And then in T^- ^^es. ' • ^»tl you 1, 'jsailmaking. iV- flow many AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2773 1 shore wtmM (tonus swear ot tilt; tear of re weai m ytmr time ; I )re (lam- k-ear ami tear was wii coast il not iiut eaiit that iails tlian iv flsbiii!;, uore barm I US of suow I barm tliaii | ast in sueli be doue in be done ioodyouto| there ; a week ia| of wiutei iu tbe baj snow, will [oast iu wittj iuk tliat iiitlieba^ L851 and « kad a to? Q. Did you see it in 1852 ? — A. Yes ; but I would not say for how long- Q. Had you continuous fog for a week ? — A. No ; I do not mean that it lasted for a weok through at a time. {}. Yon mean separate foggy days during tlie season made up a ^opk ?— A. They made more than that. (J. You never saw such a thing as a week's contiauoas fog in the l,.tv?_A. I could not swear that, but still in my mind it is very clear that we liad over a week's fog. Q. Continuously? — A. I am not swearing positively to it. Q. Will you swear that yon saw any tiling like a week's continuous fog in 1852"?— A. No. Q, Or in 1853 ?— A. I should. y. You that year saw a week's continuous fog? — A. I think so. Q. Wiiere? — A. Between Bonaventure and the island down toward the Magdalen Islands — between the island and the Magdalen Islands. Q. ( »ut in the center of the gulf? — A. Yes ; on Banks Orphan and Bradley. Q, And that lasted a weok ? — A. I think so. Q. ^Vll It did you do ail that tiuu^? — A. We tri.'d for ininiinrel. Q. (Jould you tell where you were? — A. We could tell that pretty nearly. Q. How far were you Irom the Magdalen Islands when the fog came n !— A. I could not tell. I was then only a hand on the vessel. Q. Were you a sharesman ? — A. Yes. Q. How long is it since you left for Denmark ? — A. Well, it is over [thirty years ago. Q. That would be in 1847 ; and in 1851 you went fishing in the bay ; I what did you do in the mean time ? — A. I went to sea. Q. Whero? — A. On foreign voyages. Q. I snppuise that, like most einigfanis, when you c.iiae to America, lyou (lid not come with money of your own ? — A. No, I do not think I'that I did. Q. Whatever money you made, you made in this country ? — A. Yes. Q. In 1851, when you first went fishing in the gulf, you had not made Imneh money? — A.- No; not much, but I had a little. Q. Where did you learn your trade ofsailmaking? — A. In the United States. Q. When?— A. I learned it during the winter in 1849, 1850, 1851, ^852, and 1853. Q. Then you did not fish at all in winter'' — A. No, but I fished 1 the spring. Q. In 1853, when you left fishing altogether, and went into business, fhat capital did you bring into it? — A. I had but very little. Q. Into what kind of business did you go? — A. Sailmaking and jigging- Q. And at this business you made your money? — A. Yes. Q. Did I not understand yon to say that you went into the fishing usiness in 1853 ?— A. No. IQ, When did you first go into the fishing business? — A. In 1864, I tiiak. Iq. And then you put $14,000 or $15,500 of capital into the busi- p?-A. Yes. [Q. And you had made this altogether by rigging ? — A. Yes ; rigging |i(l sailmaking. IQ. How many vessels did you send into the bay in the course of time .^.4- ■f^'^n*! tM*^ r rm J in- ill m. 2774 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. you were engaged in business ? — A. We bad four tbat went into the bay principally. Q. Did you go witb tbem yourself? — A. No. Q. Did you send captains ? — A. Yes. Q. And were these captains i)art owners witb you ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know where those vessels fished? — A. I could not tell, Q. You do not know whether they fished inshore or not ? — A. No. Q. Did you never inquire ? Did they do a good business ? — A. Ko' they did not do much. Q. Did they get the same av^erage catcbes which you obtained from 1851 to 1853 ? — A. Some years they did and some years they did not. Q. Were the prices of mackerel then very low ? — A. No ; they were fair. Q. Did those vessels in which you went into the bay in 1851, ],s.j:\ and 1853 make money ? — A. No. Q. Did they lose ? — A. I dy not think that they made anything. Q. Will you tell me how it was tbat with the full knowledge which you bad of the fishing business in the bay — it being either a losing business or one in which you did not make money — you were tempted to go into the business of sending vessels to the bay: you had had personal experience that the fisheries in the bay were good ior iioth ing? — A. I bad heard that a good many vessels had made money in tbe fishing business, and 1 went into it with the intention of making iiiouey, but I found that I was mistaken. Q. You bad heard that a good many vessels went into the bay and made money ? — A. Yes, some. Q. Although your experience personally was entirely against it?- j A. Yes. Q. In 1851, when jou made two trips and caught 300 and 325 barrels, what was the size of the vessel ? — A. I think about 80 tons. Q. What would be a full fare ?— A. 300 or 325 barrels. Q. When you made those two trips, did you go both times back to| Gloucester? — A. Yes. Q. And yon got full fares on both occasions ? — A. Yes. In 1852, when you got 350 barrels, was it the same vessel ?— i| That was a full fare ? — A. Yes. You told me a full fare was 325 barrels ? — A. We carried someonl Q. Yes. Q. Q. deck. Q. Did you fish in 1853 ?— A. Yes. Q. What was your fare tiien ? — A. 180 barrels. Q. The same vessel ? — A. No. Q. What tonnage was the vessel ? — A. About the same touuage, think. Her name was Vienna. Q. You did not get a full fare ? — A. No. Q. On that occasion you swear you only fished on Bradley and Orphai Banks ? — A. On the first year I swear that. Q. I speak of the last year, when you caught 182 barrels ?— A. Q. That was not a full fare ? — A. No. Q. What time did you leave the bay ? — A. 1 think about the 1st >'j vember. Q. What time did you go into the bay? — A. In July Q. Though you only got 180 barrels, which was not a full fare byl barrels, you never, during the whole time, went inshore at all ?— A. V went inshore. Q. Did you go inshore ? — A. We tried inshore 0 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2775 Q. Q. Q. Q. Q. vear. ■ Q. back to I essel '-A. iA some m tonnage, ?— A. 1' the 1st H Jiirebylj Where? — A. Coming out of Cascnmpeque and Malpeque. Was that within the three miles ? — A. Yes. Did you try in Bay Chaleurs? — A. Yes. At Margaree 1 — A. Yes. Did you get any mackerel? — A. There were no mackerel there tliat ^Ve tried, also, off Port Hood, and did not get any tliere. Then there were no mackerel at all inshore that year? — A. We (lid not fjet any. Q. Were there any catches made in the bay that year ? — A. Yes. Q. And notwithstanding that cutters were in the bay you went in- shore to fish ? — A. We tried coming out of harbors. I don't suppose the cutters saw. Q. What did you go in for ?— A. We went in for a harbor. I said tliat in coming out of harbors we tried. Q. All the trying you did was when you made for harbors, and tried coining out ?— A. Yes. Q. You really did not try anywhere at all? — A. It is so long ago I cannot recollect. Q. Yot you recollect that in 1852 you caught 25 or 30 barrels at Mar- garee?— A. I recollect that because the cutter was coming down, and TC got under way and stood out. Q. That was the reason you did not catch any more? — A. Yes; I hare no doubt about it. Q. There was good iishing inshore there ? — A. Yes ; very good. Q. And you went out of the bay because you could not fish inshore? Did yon try at Margaree in 1853 ? — A. There were no mackerel at Mar- garee that year. Q. Did you try at the Magdalen Islands? — A. Yes; we caught a few I there ; very few. Q. In answer to Mr. Dana, you said you only tished on Bradley and lOrplian Banks, and did not fish inshore? — A. That was where I caught Ifflvfish. Q. If you fished that year at Magdalen Islands, why did you not say IsotoMr. Dana? — A. We did not catch any mackerel there. I under- Istood Mr. Dana wanted to know where we took our mackerel, and I said Banks BratUey and Orphan. We tried toward Magdalen Islands and |at llarjjaree and Prince Edward Island. Q. You mean you did try at Magdalen Islands, but did not catch lany!— A. Yes. Q, How long did you stay at Magdalen Islands ? — A. We might have |heeii tiiere one or two days. Q. What time of the jear was it ?— A. In September, I think. Q. Why did you go away from there ? — A. It is no use to stay there f no mackerel are there. Q. Is it stormy round Magdalen Islands at all ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you consider it an unsafe place to fish late in the season ? — A. Ms. Q. Is it usually so considered among fishermen ? — A. I believe so. Q. Is it one of the most dangerous places in the bay ? — A. I don't Wder it half so dangerous as at Prince Edward Island. IQ. What part of Prince Edward Island is twice as dangerous as Rdaleu Islands ? — A. In the bend of the island. [Q. Are there no harbors there ? — A. Yes ; there are harbors, but they J hard harbors to get into. iQ. Have you been there of late years to see if there are any harbors f refuge there ?— A. I have not. ' /i ' At" ^■*at*:'- '4i 'Y'iitif ,it 'MI^ V ■ ,.i# ■/fk h.m/^-% ^ 2776 ▲WARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Are there not many more vessels lost at Magdalen Islands tbauat Prince Edward Island ? — A. I think not. Q. That is your idea ?— A. Of late years there may have l)ei'ii. in former years more jxere lost at Prince Edward Island. Q. Do you mean to say that, exce|)ting the year of the great Aiiieri can gale ?— A. I take that in. Q. At what time of the year did that occur? — A. I do not know whether in September or October. In October, I think. Q. That is the season when few or no vessels are at Maffdalen Islands? — A. Yes. Q. They would leave Magdalen Islands and go fishing at Prince Ed ward Island ? — A. I don't know. Q. Don't they fish around Prince Edward much later in the mmn than around Magdalen Islands ? — A. Not at the bend of the island. Around East Point they do. Q. Were not a number of the vessels lost at East Point ? — A. Some were lost there, I think. Q. Then you swear that you believe Magdalen Islands to be a safer place than Prince Edward Island ? — A. I would rather tish there. Tliere are more chances for a vessel to get out. Q. Why ? — A. There is a chance to go around the islands. Q. Is there not a chance to go around Prince Edward Island at the northeast or north end ? — A. If you are near either end tbere is the same; if you are not near one of the ends you have not mncli chance in a storm. Q. Cannot you go into the harbors ? — A. Suppose a vessel draws V! or 14 feet, she cannot go over the bars. Q. If the bar has less depth of water, of course she cannot. Do you say the harbors have less than that ? — A. They had at that time ; I don't know what they are now. Q. In answer to Mr. Dana, you stated that you believe the inshore fishery is of no practical value to the Dnited States? — A. I should not consider it so. Q. And did you so consider it in 1851, 1852, and 1853? — A. Yes. Q. Was that the general opinion? — A. I think that is the general opinion of everybody. Q. Amongst fishermen in 1851, 1852, and 1853, and ever since?— A. Yes ; I think so. Q. Did you ever hear any one among fishermen say to the contrary ?-| A. I don't know I ever heard anybody. Q. How do you account for their making such endeavors to get th( right to fish inshore? — A. I did not know they made any endeavors, Q. In your judgment they are good for nothing? — A. I woiihi uo( give one cent for the whole of them. Q. And you think that is the opinion of all the fishermen ?— A. could not say what their opinion is. It is so, as far as I know. Q. And as far as you know is it the opinion of fish merchants!—^ I could not say. Q. You were in that business yourself ? — A. I am not in busines now. Q. You have stated that in your opinion the inshore fisheries are n( worth one cent, and that as far as you know that is the opinion of tl fishermen? — A. Yes. Q. Is that the opinion of the fish merchants as well ? — A. I think Q. I suppose that is the opinion in Gloucester, Boston, and all aloi the coast of Massachusetts? — A. I think so. % Mr. Tl Question, flo^ J i'on have 1 U°" "»'" Q- J^'ere you "•fofthetimel H- U bat were iS' 'sr ^^'^ "'«" !V; »v hereabout foffontforAi iV; iToiii 1834 t f '0 1838. [^- How many, AWARD OP THE PI8HKRY COMMISSION. 2777 Q. Aud if any jierson, either a United States tlshenuau or otherwise, luiikes any tr<)iil)le ahoiit getting the right to tlsh witiiin tlie three inilcs lortbeir vessels, yon think he is foolisli ? — A. I thiulc so. [ think they will be tools to pay anything for it. Q. Iftliey can get tlie Ashing without paying for it, tliey will not be ji)j,ls»_A. There are very few tish insliore anyway. > [j Q. Even now that is so ? — A. I don't know. I have not been there lately. I could not say. Q, Yon don't know anything about it practically since 1853? — A. Not practically. Q. You seriously swear you would not give one cent for the inshore nskries! — A. At that time I would not. Q. That is in 1854. Have yon heard that they have since been very much better ? — A. 1 have not. Q. Would you rather have one cent in your pocket than the grant of all these rtsheries 1 — A. I think I should. By Mr. Dana : Q. I suppose you think, in that case, you would have to carry them about?— A. Yes. Q. If you had a large number of vessels sind you intended to send tbem to the bay to fish, would you send them if you had to pay for the I right of inshore fishing ? — A. No ; I would not. Q. And the result of your experience is that it would not pay to send I thera iiitc the bay to tish ? — A. No ; as far as my experience goes. Q. About sails. Are there not great efforts made to procure some- I tiling to prevent the effect of fog and mildew on sails? — A. Yes. Q. It is considered a very serious evil ? — A. Yes. Q. More so than ordinary storm and rain ? — A. Yes. Q. I suppose seafaring-men, w hen they get into harbor, after a storm . |ofwiud and rain, dry the sails? — A. Yes. Q, A tew days of rain followed by sunshine would not hurt a vessel jsomuch as long-continued dampness? — A. No. No. 67. Jajies \V. Pattillo, of North Stoughton, Mass., retired fisherman, ailed on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and Itiamiued. By Mr. Trescot : Question. How old are you? — Answer. 71 years on 29th September ast. Q. Yon have been a fisherman in your day? — A. Yes. Q. And have fished a good deal ? — A. All the wav along from 1834 )1868. I Q. Were you fishing all that time ? — A. The best part of it ; some irtof the time I was not. IQ. What were you doing when you were not fishing? — A. I was agent Vo years for the insurance company. IQ. Whereabouts ? — A. Down at (Jape Breton Island, at Port Hood, Vking out for American vessels. |Q. From 1834 to 1868, how often were vou skipper? — A. I was skip- Jin 1838. ll thiuk «Q, How many years ?— A. 1839, 1840, and all the way along pretty ll all aloDBicli. 'm^ ;*. I ilk '"^^J ^P I ' ! l|f)f''t'' m.^.. 2778 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ;,*'! i Q. All the while from 1840 to 18081— A. Yes, all the time I was mas. ter except two yeiirs, when I did not go to the bay. Q. Durinjj timt periotl of time hiivo you been in the bay a i^ml iImI! — A. Some yearn I went to the bay two trips, some yj'ars bur oiietriii, and some years not at all. Q. llave you done any tisliing on the American coast as well us ju the bay ? — A. I have. Q. What sort of i>roportion does the ttshing on tliu AuuMu^iin cuist bear to the fishinfj in the bay? Did you fish most on your const o, most in the bay? — A. 1 lished more in the bay than on the coast, although f have done fully better on our own shores in seasons than i ever have in the bay. Q. You say you went fishing first in 1834. Where did you go !— i I did not go into North Bay in 1834. I fished on our own sliores. Q. Whon was the first year you went into the bay ? — A. In 183(i, in the Good Hope. Q. When was the last year you were in the gulf? — A. 1808. Q. Did you find any difference in the fishing in 1808 from what it was in 1830, and, if so, what was the diii'eren(5e l! — A. In 1830 we did but little. We had a large vessel. Good Hope, with 13 or 14 men, and got 05 barrels. We proceeded there some time in July, and arrived home at the latter part of September. Q. How often after that did you go into the gulf? What is the total number of consecutive years you have been in the bay ? — A. I have been there 21 trips. Q. You have then got a pretty good knowledge of wbat the gulf fish ing has been from 1830 to 1808. How does the gulf fishing compare now with what it was when you first went there ? — A. I have not been there since 1808, and of what has been done since 1 have little knowl edge except wbat I have read. Q. Prom 1836 to 1808, Ims there been a great change in the bay fish ing, or was it pretty much the same? — A. In the gulf it used to varv, Some years there would be pretty good fishing, and other years it woiilil| be pretty slim. Q. Where was your general fishing-place in the gulf? — A. On Banks! Orphan and Bradley, and at Magdalen Islands, At Magdalen Islands I fished mostly always, and I found better fishing 15 or 20 miles froinj the laud, on the north side of the Magdalens, and round Bird Koci;s,j than anywhere else. I have caught some mackerel along at Point Mis I cou, in the range of North Cape, Prince Edward Island; but one-half ofl the mackerel we got at Magdalen Islands and round Banks Bradley aniij Orphan. Q. During these 21 years, how much fishing did you do within three! miles of the land ? — A. To the best of my judgment, I will give you the! facts. I had the day and date for all the items, but in 1803 wehadaj fire, and it was burned up, and therefore I will give you them the best! I can from memory. I never thought anything about it till a weeJj agoJ when I overhauled my memory, and I can give it to you. The firstf year, in the Good Hope, we got 05 barrels of mackerel ; none wera caught within the limits. I think we caught about .35 barrels iu ou^ day, about 8 or 10 miles to the northward of Magdalen Islands. Mr. Thomson called attention to a memorandum from which wituesi was reading. Witness said the paper was a memorandum he had made out of th^ years he had been in North Bay and where he caught the mackerel. AWARD OF THE FI8HERY COMMISSION. 2779 Mr. Thomson. If your books were lost an«l your memory does not serve yoii, liow did you make up the paper? — A. From my memory. (V \Vli\ di«l you make up the paper ? — A. 1 made it up to he aceurate, and «o tliat if 1 was asked questions, I mifjlit not mix up voyages. Mr. Thomson. Then I under.stand you to state that you sat down and made up t'"»' paper from your recollection ? — A. Yes, Kxiiiaiiiiiticm resumed. WiTNKSS. The next maciverel we got was somewhere about 40 wash- liarrt'ls, about twenty miles broad off St. I'eter's. That was all the maciicrel we got to make up 05 barrels. Those were 05 sea-barrels, whicii wi! carried to Cape Ann. The second year, ISJJT, I was in the Mount Vernon, and we caught 300 barrels of mackerel. We caught 200 barrels broad off to an anchor within half a mile of the land; and 100 barrels we caught 10, 15, (u* 20 miles from the land. Mr. Trbsoot. Where did you catch them ? — A. At Margaree Island 01 Sea Cove Island. It was on 13th October, I remember it well, and we tilled up. In 1838 I was master of the same Good lIo|)e, and we got 210 barrels. 1 think, according to the best of my judgment, we got 50 tiarrels of them within three miles of the land, but I think, to the best of my judgment, the rest were taken in our own waters, 5, 10, 15 or 20 miles from the land. In 1830 1 was in the Tiger, and got 75 barrels. We caught them all off" shore, that is, wi.hout the three-mile limit. In 1840 1 was not in the bay; I fell from the masthead and broke my thigh. In 1841 I was in the bay twice in the Abigail. The first trip we got 250 barrels on Banks Bradley and Orphan. The second trip we got 75 I barrels up at the bend of the island, making 325 barrels for the season. I III 1842, 1843, and 1844, I was fishing on our shores in the Hosea Blue. In 1845 and 1840 I fished on our shores. lu 1848 I fished on our shores I in the Alexander. In 1841) I was at home. In 1850 1 was in the Alex- ander on our shores. In 18"»1 I was in the bay in the Alexander, and made two trips; that was the year of the gale. On the first trip, 1 caught, between Point Miscou and North Cape, 314 barrels. I landed tliem at Arichat, with a member of the house named Martel, and he [advanced me the money to fit out the second time. The next trip I got |2U barrels after the gale. To the best of ray judgment I got from 75 to I barrels within the limits. We got them in two or three days after Itbegale. Some of them made out we were within the limits, so I went jhoine; I thought it was no use to continue. Captain Derby was kind lofcbasiug us, so I went home. I had to come to Arichat and get my |3U barrels, lu 1852 I caught 335 barrels, and 1 caught them from the jnortli part of Anticosti up to Seven Islands, right in the gulf, 15 or 20 miles Ifrom laud. We were about in the range off" from the northwest part of lAuticosti to Seven Islands, and up the gulf. That was iu the Alexander. Iln 1853 1 bad the schooner Highland Lass, and got 400 barrels. I caught Itliem between Point Miscou, say 10 or 15 miles oft' Miscou, and up the JTOt shore, 8 or 10 miles along, at Escumiiuic. I caught half of them |toan anchor. It was the year when the vessel was new. Those are all «abarrel.s. The next year, 1854, I got 300 barrels. In 1855 I had Christie Campbell, a new vessel. The Highland Lass was in the bay. A nan named Samuel Chambers was in her; I know he did not do a great N, but I don't know what he got. On the first trip I got 250 barrels p Banks Bradley and Orphan ; on the second trip I caught 200 barrels ft Magdalen Islands. In 1856 I got 285 barrels. I caught the princi- l part of them on Fisherman's Bank, between Cape George and George- ""D. I got about 100 barrels there at the last of the month ; it wound r ?*' . ■ ..T-^ til ■ri" ■■4:^M '■III 'If ,.m^ <--»'^,^. ' tf ^ 4l <■ • ■( -»24j s^-r** r*^-,if<' ',.} ■r'»m*- . ,,„. v,.r-: o^' -\ jv ir^ f f t 2780 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. •i^.i yiy^ fcl..v:^; up my fa»e, on, I think, 19Mi October. Iti 1847 I was iu tlie uult iisiat and got 330 barrels. I caught them at Mufjrdalen Ishinds, oit' Iil;i(;|;l!iii| autl some down round tlie Bird Rocks. VVo caught them round Biti Rocks to an anchor, and the balance off Blackland, on the noitli .^idev the Mafjdalens, In 1858 I was agent for the insurance c<)in()uii\. [■ 1850 I was at home. I had a mau to go in her, so I staid iit hoiuV. jj 1800 I was again agent for the insurance company, looking after Ameri. can vessels. In 1801 I went to the gold diggings, down at Wiiii' Hit bor, and bonght an old claim for $00; but 1 did not get much yohi, jj 1802 I was in thiv Rose Skerrit, and got two trips of mackerel. The i\u\ trip of 350 barrels I got off Blackland, at INIagdalen Islands; the sccojii trip I got 400 barrels, making 750 barrels in short of three montb, anJ we went home and lauded them. We caught the first trip iii twthe days, and the second we took in twenty days. We got our tups tli round the Magdalens, and perhaps halfway from Entry Islaud to E;is; Point. Q. Did you get any within the three miles ? — A.* ^^t one of tliera, In 1803 1 went in Oliver Cromwell and got 940 barrels. I made but obp trip. I sent home 560 barrels, I think. I could not pretend to say to a barrel. I think I landed the first trip, 330 barrels, at Maguire's in the Gut, and the next trip we landed, making 500 barrels. That is to the best of n»y memory. Before we came home we made it up to 950 l)aritL\ Q. Where did you catch those? — A. I caught half of the first trip be tween Entry Islaud and Cheticamp, about halfway. We had Emry Isiand in sight, 25 miles off, and sometimes not quite so far. It is kiiowa to be a good fishing ground, and there we got one-half of our luackMi;! on the first trii). Of the rest of the uiackerel, we caught sonie within the limits; I don't know just how many. I could not pretend to savoa my oath, but we got some. We got them in Georges Bay, between Ciipe George and Cape Patrick, lu Autigonish Bay. Of these 940 barrels, tc probably got 100 barrels within the limits ; I think that is a large esti mate of w hat we got there. I think it would be honest and faiv, as bf tween man and man, to say 100 barrels, which would be as much as u got inshore, to the best of my ju'orti) Cape. "^m. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2781 Tni'GbUAY, October 18, 1877. The Coil feronce met. Xheoxiuniuatiou of James W. Pattillo was resumwl. By Mr. Trcs(rot : (iiiestioii. I se'ova Scotia, September L'!), 180<». 0. Witliout giving precise details of your catches during your I'l years lot experienee in the bay as m fisherman, will you tell mo what proportiou lot' the tisli you caught during this period was taken within the ;iiuile {lji„jt/_A. Possibly 1(>' per cent. — 10 barrels out of 100; and I think itbat woiiM be a large proi»ortioii, because during the 21 seasons I was [in the bay the most mackerel I ever so caught was in my second year. Q. Being a lisherman of that experience, what sort of advantage do jvdii think it is to have the right to tisii within the o-mile limit in British r\v;U('i's; do you attach mucli importance to it ? — A. Well, if 1 had to go • ill the bay I should not calculate that inshore fishing was worth auy- (thiiig at all. I would only go inshore to make harbors and dress fish. I would not give a snap of my finger for the inshore fisheries. When liwui^es cost 50 cents a ton 1 would not pay it. 1 would rather tish in jiuv own waters, because I (.-ould do better there. it. Yon never took a license out ? — A. 1 never did. 1 was for three lyciiis ill llie bay when they were issued, but I would not take one o?it. iilid not want them. Q. You were then master of your own vessel? — A. Yes; I owned the [vessel ar.d was master. Q. And you ran the risk ? — A. I fished in my own waters, 3, 4, ."), 10 laud 20 miles ott' laud, and I always did better there than inshore. I vroiihi not give a cent for the inshore fisheries. All I would go inshore \m would be to make a harbor. Q, Yon never had any trouble with the cutters ? — A. No ; save once [when they chased me. Q. But that WHS no tr'^uble ? — A. O, no; it was only for doing a kind I act, Q. Besides having fished for 21 years in tlie bay, did yon fish much louour own coast ? — A. 1 did. Q. How does the fishing on our coast compare with the fishing in the jbayf— A. I have myself always done better on our own shore, with the jexcejttiou of one year, than I ever did in North Bay. Q. During how many years did you fish on our shore ? — A. I think I \h\m\ Iheie 8 seasons, or somewhere about that ; it was perhaps a little jiiuiie, but I know I fished there 8 years. Q. If you found the fishing on our shore so much better than the fis^h- jiiiy in the bay, why did you go to the bay ? — A. Well, there was just |oi)Hiiriiieiple on which we used mostly to go to the bay ; the fact is that jrtiii we sliipped a crew at Cai)e Cod, after we had been ((ft' for a fort- JBijht or 3 weeks on our shore, men would leave the vessel ; but when l«e got a crew and Ccune to North Bay, they luid to stay on board ; jtlim' WHS then no biick doer to crawl out of. This was one of the chief iMisonsfor coming to the bay, as we then had notn»nble in the .«hij)ping jot bands, good, bad, or indirt'eivnt ; but when we were down on our shore, jiiieii would {-o ott and we would have to secure new hands. Men w ou'd jlliiiik they might do better, and they would go where the high line was; 1 we were then under the necessity of sui>plying their places. Another Ithiug was, that by going to the bay, we got clear of the fog. On our M m •4X *' ■■k li BEri !.vSi8« •>*»'*'^ i^:^-3# ^■mHM\:l m:f9^ AT 2782 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. U i ii-i; W.^-n./'^;! M ■ if n"X- t\ III li vP 'r*! coast there is a great deal of fog, but when we reacli North Bay. we get clear of it. Q. You say that in the gulf your fishing was clone on the Banks ainl toward the Magdalen Islands ? — A. Yes ; we caught the lictt of our mackerel in. ariably around the Magdalen Islands. Q. As a lishing ground, taking it all in all, are the Magdalen Islands much worse than Prince Edward Island ? — A. Tbey are better tliim Prince Edward Island. Q. You did not fish much about Prince Edward Island t — A. Iiuvii did a great deal, I tried around there, but I never caught iniwiy \U\] there. Q. You are sure that you never took a license out ? — A. Ves ; I am sure that I never took a license out. I never paid a red cent torn license. By Mr. Thomson : Q. You never took out a license ? — A. No. Q. Where were you in 18G0 ? — A. At home. Q. Do you k: ow of a vessel belonging to Gloucester called rfee x-ot- land? — A. Yes. Q. Do you own her? — A. Yes. Q. Was she in the bay in 1866? — A. I do not recollect whether she Avas or not. Q. How happens it, since you have given most extraordniar, evi- dence of having a good memory, recollecting not only what vtm liiiil years ago, but the very days of the mouth when events occurnni. that you do not remember where the Scotland was in 1866, and what she was then doing ? — A. I think that Captain Bartlett went in her that year to the Banks, fresh halibuting — down at St. Peter's Bank. Q. And she did not go to the bay at all that year ? — A. I think not Q. Can yon swear positively that she did not? — A. No; I cannot; but to the best of my recollection she did not go to the bay that year, Q. Did any of your vessels, when you were not in them, takeout licenses ? — A. Not that I know of. Q. Can you swear that the Scotland did not take out a license in 1866, and did not fish in the Bay in 1866 ?— A. Well, she might liave then been in the bay ; I was not in her. I never paid for a Hceusetoj my knowledge in my life. Q. I presume that the captain would not pay for p, license out of bis I own|)ocket?- A. Well, I cannot recollect paying for one. I know that I I did not do so when 1 was in her myself. Q. How happens it, if your memory is so good, that you cannot I remember this? You surprised me by stating as far back as 30 years j ago, not only what you did during a particular year, but also what you did on the 18th and lUth of October ?— A. The' 18th and lOtli of Otto ber? Q. I think so. — A. No ; biit I recollect catching mackerel in Mount Vernon, on the 11th, 13th and 13th of October, when we tookl'iHlj barrels. I recollect that as well as if it had only happened yesterdavj My memory serves me better concerning events which happened souif j 40 years ago, than for those that have occurred somewhat recently. Q. That was in 1837 ?— A. Yes. Q, Forty years ago ? — A. Yes. Q. You not only recollect what you then did, but also the very daysj of the month in this regard ? — A. That is true. I do so recollect it. Q. I do not mean to say that your memory is not ([uite accnrate;! but it surprises me to find that with such an exceedingly retentivel m AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2783 ^;^ memory von fail to remember where tbe Scotlaiul went in 1860 1 — A. Well 1 can recollect events tbat lifijipened 40 and 'A) years ajyo better tbiiii anything which happened .vesterday. 1 had everything tbat octuired as I went along, nntil I was burned out; until then I bad luniiUMcrii'ts referring to all my voyages and cruises, and everything else tliat 1 (lid ; and in this statement 1 liave given the facts just as they uaiint'tl, as well as my memory servos me. I give you the truth on botli siili's just as faithfully as I woidd if I were to die this very minute. 1 want to give you tbe exact truth. (^>, 1 don't dispute that. — A. Tbat is it. (), I am not charging you with making any willful mistake; but I wish to see whotlier you are in error. — A. I may be in error. Q. You say tliat all tbe memoranda which you kept concerning your vova?es have been lost ; why did you keep such written memoranda ? — A. I always kept them, in order to know what I did, whereabouts 1 was, and bow imicii money I made, as I most always owned the whole of all •lie vessels 1 had, though I did not own the whole of the Scotland. I ui'ver kept such account further than concerned what expenses were paid, i'. :<1 ^^ hat balance belonged tome; and in this way I knew how iniicli 1 made, after 1 iiad completed my voyage and paid all charges ; thfi it I mil le 81,000, 1 thus knew tbat I made it such a year ; and if I uiaui ••«-,' ''. I pnt that down for such or such a year, clear of living and expenses. Sometimes it was more, and sometimes it was less ; but such as it was, I made a menioiandum of it, to which I could refer and know just exactly where I stood. 1 never went into debt, and I always paid '' T ■.rent. Q, Al;er you made such memoranda, you would have no occasion to J-: ; them again? — A. No; but I always could do jo if any questions lai'ose reudering it desirable. Q, Had you occasion to refer back to them ; notbiMg occurred to make I ibis necessary until this occasion arose ? — A. No. Q, When did you last read them ? — A. I have not read any paper |.oiiceriiing my voyages since I knocked oft" fishing, and my last year's tibliing was in 18(58. I have not thought of doing so. Q, I presume tbat when you read the record of 1808, or of 1807, you [would not have gone back to the extent of 30 years previousiy — to 1837, orI8;iS.' Nothing had then happened to call your attention to such matters.' — A. No; nothing has occurre< p-.„- 2784 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. which contained them were burned ? — A. No ; 1 never referred to them but often when we got together we would talli over what wo had done such and such a year ; we would talk over at the fireside what we liad done in a vessel — say in 1830, 1837, or 1838 — telling how many iniickerrl we got and how much money we made, and all that, in couunou talk We would refer to these matters time and time again, telling who was high-line, and all what happened. Wo used to talk over these subjects in that way. Q. Although j'ou did talk over what you did in these different years, you never referred to this memorandum-book to verify your stati ments? — A. No. Q. Then it comes to this, that although you had a memoraiHliim book, you never referred to it at all to assist your memory ?— A. Xo: not a bit. Q. With this extraordinary memory, the accuracy of which 1 do nut dispute — recollecting not only what you did 4tt years ago hut the verv days of the month on which certain events happened, yet you cai)iiot tell me wliether in 186G, 11 years ago, your vessel, the Scotland, went into the bay to fish or not '! — A. Well, she went halibut ing that year. Q. Kut she did !iot go into the bay ? — A. No ; she went to St. Peters Bank and the Western Bank. Q. But that is not the Gulf of St. Lawrence ?— A. Well, .she might have gone up above Seven Islands, where a good many halibut used to be got. Q. That l'"S south of the coast of Labrador and north of the island of Anticosti l — A. Yes. Q. Did she go there to catch halibut? — A. She might have done so; 1 was not in uer. She was in charge of Captain Bartlett at the time. Q. Your captain would surely tell you where he had beeii and where he had caught his fish ? This would be your first question ?— A. As long as he had halibut that was the chief thing I looked after. Q. I do not think you would be content with merely knowing that! You would ask him where he had been and where he had cauglit his fish ? — A. Sometimes 1 might do so and sometimes I might not. Q. Did you, in point of fact, ask and discover from him where lieiia been and what he had caught that year? — A. I could not answer that! question; I could not say whether I did so or not; 1 might possibly j have done so, and I might not. Q. Then I am right in stating that, notwithstanding your good mem-j ory, you do not recollect whether your vessel, the Scotland, went IbI 1866 into the gulf or not ?— A. Well, I am pretty positive in saying that] she did not go there that year mackereling. Q. Did she go there at all, for halibut or an;- other Hsii '—A. >'ot| that I know of; that is not within my recollection. Q. You have no recollection of Captain Bartlett having taken out a] license in the bay that year? — A. No. Q. Do you recollect what the license-fee was that year? — A. Itmijrli have been $1 for all I know, and it might have been 50 cents. Q. What was the tonnage of the Scotland ? — A. 1-3, carpeiitof measurement, and I think one hundred and somt thing new tonnage, think that I paid for 125 or 130 tons, when I bouglit her, Q. Did they measure the tonnage by carpenter's niea.»,ireuient i^ levying fees? — A. That I cannot tell. Q. The fee would be at least $50, if they charged 50 cents per tou, $120 if $1 a ton was charged. — A. Yes. Q. That sum would not be paid by the captain ? — A. I supiiose ilmj Lm AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2785 hem, doiit; e toil ikercl, I talk. 10 was years, stak imliuii A. No; L tlo Uat \w very I CUllUOt ul, went , year. [. Peter's lie miglit t useil to he islaiul lone so; 1 time, viul where ?— A. As ring that! ul cauglit it not. [•re he had iswerthatl It possibly j good mem- jl, weut in Vyiug that] [|_A. Not ikeu out It mii:l [jarpeiiter' ftuuage. Irenieut i^ kiei tou, .jtose it ffoultl come out of the common stock — the whole stock ; oiielialf wimld be paid by the crew, and one-half by the owner. 1 sni»po.so so — 1 do not know ; but that is my impression. 0, In the report concerninfj the issue of fishing licenses, for fishiiio; inshore in Canadian waters, it is stated that in 18(JG a license was taken outltv the Scotland, J. \V. Pattiis, of Gloucester, Mass.? — A. There is 110 person of that name, .lames W. Pattillo is my name. 0, The niune entered here is J. W. Pattiis — probably a misprint — and the'to'inage of the Scot and is given as 7S; that, I sui)pose, would be (iidiiiary tonnafje, not carpenter'.s measurement ? — A. 1 supi)ose so. 0. Ilow many nien did she carrj' ? — A. Sometimes 14 and some- times 15. 0, Siie is represented here as having 10 men, and as having i)aid 50 ivii'tsper tou for the licen.se, amounting in all to 8.'}S.5(). There was no oilier Scotland, J. W. Pattiis, of (iloucester, Mass.; and yet you see that sIhmHiI taUe out a license that year ? — A. Ilo^v is that name spelled ? (), I'attils. — A. jNIy name is spelled Pattillo. {]. There is no per.son that spells his name Pattiis, that yen are aware of. ill (iloucester ? — A. No. (^>, And your initials are J. W.? — A. Yes. (^1, (J:ui you undertake to say (hat tins entry is wrong, and that such aliteiise was never taken out ? — A. W'l'll, I would not pretend to say tliai statement is wrong; but 1 have no recollection of this having been tiie case, Q. At all events, if the captain took it in your absence, a id without voiir knowledge, he had more respect for the inshore ttsheries than you Iwveiiow, apparently ? — A. Well, I never paid a cent for a license tu liny knowledge, though I might have jiaid f>)r that, but I do not recollect living (lone so. 1 never considered inshore tishing in the bay worth [.iiicents, nor yet would 1 pay 2o cents for the jirivilege. Q, III answer to Mr. Tre.scot, you stated you thought that the tishing lotiilii'xVinerican coast was better than the tishing around Prince Edward llsliiiKl and in the bay 'I — A. I think so. (}. Yon spoke of the American coast as "our shore," and in the same Ibuath you said you were born in Xova Scotia ? — A. I have been natu- ralized; and I now call that our shore. I have become a citizen of the ited States. (^>, When were you naturalized ? — A, In 1830, I think ; I have the fapers to show. ii>. Tiic oath you have thus taken is not merely, I believe, an oath of Ik^'iance as a citizen of the United States, but also an oath of abroga- ot allegiance to Queen Vict(n'ia and tlie vsovereigns of Great IJrit- !— A. ] think that when I was sworn, which was in open court, I wi'tohe true to the (Jnited States of Ameri(;a, and I also swore alle- iiiiw against Great lUitain and Ireland and all IJer .Majesty's domiii- ii\ |l). Itiioiiglitso. — A. And I have tried to be loyal to the I'nito I States m Miice. Yon came from Nova Scotia, and you say you swore allegiance list Nova Scotia when you took tiiis oath :' — A. Well, I wanted to ■theriglit: and privilege of any citizen, and 1 could not secure that .'•lit ^oing through this i>reliminary. And after that y »u tried to keep your oath, and you have been Bttaiul s(»ul AM Aiuerican citizen ever since ? — A. Yes; certainly. ' Ami \ .1 regard this question, which is now to be determined by 1T.")F iln^ <**!r*^ ••••■'"^ ■ — , M^^-' *^S^^^m^\ '^■''^^t-::m mm^m / :||J^ ^^M PP| ' ,-,v"**'^-** - T ■■ ~*t^ y^BM ■•*■'' .**lj.« P-M 1^1 Hi ^ "---til^'JiSi 2786 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. these Coiniiiis.s,ioiier.s, from an American stand-point ? — A. Yes ; of tout* I I ilo. ' Q, And I snppose yoii take quite an interest in seeing the ConimiJ sionera award nothing, or as little as possible, against tlie Uiiiif,if States? — A. Well, I took no thought of it — good, bad, or indiff'ereiiu until I was invited to come down here ; and that was a week ago yestet I day. I have tried to ovcrliaul my memory the best 1 could, and 1 ]i;m\ done the best L could. If anybody could could do it any better, I\v(j like to have him try it. I have done the best I could, and if I havedunsi wrong, I have not intended it. I would not lie for the (Joiim whether they give fifteen millions or not. Q. Do not misunderstand me. 1 am not charging you with lyiucotl anything of that kind. — A. No ; I would not do it. Q. Tell mo why, having this memory, and considering the fact tlia: your memoranda were destroyed, you wrote down memoranda oinb; pajier ? — A. I could tell all the tilings just as they came aloiifr, biitll wanted to be accurate, and I did not know but they might begin atoiij eml or the other, anrt I wanted it to refer to. (J. You have been examined before you came here ? — A. I havemerek| talked it over. Q. You had no idea of Mr. Trescot puzzling you ? — A. lie asked a word or two; but I did not theu refer to any particular year— ,'ooil,| bad, or indifferent. Q. Y'^on had no idea of his entrapping you ?— A. Well, I did iiotkiioi| but what you might catch me. Q. You have stated you do not think that the inshore fisheries iut gulf are worth anytliing at all ? — A. No ; I do not. Q. And you say that yon never took out a license, but I see tlnito of your vessels took out a license; hence, her captain entertained a tl ferent opinion from yourself in this regard ; are you really serious saying that they are worth nothing at all '? — A. No ; they are not T fish of the sea, on any shore, are not worth anything. Q. Then your idea is that these inshore fisheries ought not to be pa for by the United States, because the fish in the sea are nobody's iisi until they are caught? — A. That is it; I never thought that the ti* eries inshore were worth anything. Q. For this reason, because they are not caught ? — A. Well, tliatiij one reason for it. Q. You did catch fish inshore on several occasions; you took i than half one trip — 100 barrels or upwards inshore ? — A. I wastlitiii hand, and was along with William Forbes in the Mount Vernon; tlia was a very poor year when very few mackerel were taken in the wlmlj bay. Q. Even so, but you then caught one-half of your trip inslioi'('M| We tcok two thi'ds of it, 200 barrels. Q. Inshore f — A, Yes; within half a mile of the island. Tliat»i| my second year fishing. Q. The privilege of fishing inshore was worth soinetiiing thatywr' A. We made a little out of it that time. Q. If you could do that again, tiie inshore fishing would lie norij soiiiething f — A. I hiive tried it anuniber of times, but 1 could nevdJ anytliing of any accou:^^ insliore. Q. O, yes, y/ did afterward to some extent ?— A. Well, \vliiK'l«i in the Oliver'Ciomwell I caugh^ 910 barrols, and I think about liinl) rels of these were taken inshore. I did not go home with i!>" liistwl that year, but 1 sent fish home twice. I slupped from Causo 'IWtal , . ,,, .. - . ,.1.4 r>f..! AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2787 rels, I tliiiik, tlie first time, and 230 barrels, or thereabouts, the second tiiiii', and the rest I carried home. 0.' Did you i)acli them out ill Causo ? — A. No; I only landed them tbcre. 0 Why .' — A. I lauded them because this was during the war, and tliii'iiieii were afraid of heiiiji; drafted, and if 1 had gone home, I would linvc had to hire men for the purpose at Canso. Cruisers were burning everytliinH: "ip, and vso I got a letter of manpie and got all prepared. I obtiiiit'd a license from the Secretary of War over at Charlestown, and I titled out my vessel with, a six-pounder and shot and cutlasses, and evi'iythinj; necessary for us to fi^ht our way ; and I landed the fish and made only one trip that season, because the men were afraid to return lest tiicy should be drafted. Q. You fitted out not against British but Southern cruisers, and your inoii were afraid of being drafted into the northern army ? — A. 1 fitted 'out against any one who should trouble me anyhow ; and I was deter- iniiiu'il, if necessary, to fight my way. If that bark had come across lilt'. I would have done my best to take her. (^, Which bark ? — A. The one that burned the vessels about George'a I'laiiiv. Q. The Alabama? — A. No; but an old bark — theTacony. {}. She was a Southern cruiser ? — A. I do not know that, but I meant I to liiive taken her if I could. The fact is, I was all cut and dried for lifi'. The people of Halifax all came down to look at my vessel. I had a six pounder on board, and 24 rounds of round shot, and 24 rounds of graiie, and bags of powder, and everything else required ; while each [iiwii had a cutlass and a revolver. I paid $S00 for that outfit. {}. AVhen was this ?— A. It was in 18G3. i}. Your men were afraid of going back to your coast lest they should I be dratted into the Northern army'? — A. Yes. Q. And you were afraid of being captured by this Southern cruiser ? — |A, I was not afraid, not a bit. Q, Well, lest you should be so captured, you armed yourself to show Ifi^ht ?-A. Yes," I did. t^. You had no other object ; you did not intend to fight any vessels |exi:e[)t Soutlicrn cruisers ? — A. No, of course not. I intended to go .iioiig peaceably if I was left alone. (}. You told Air. Tresoot that, though the fisheries on your coast are Iktter than those in the gulf, you preferred to go to the gulf in order to |k(t'|) your crews together ? — A, That is so. (^ Was not that a great couveuieuce to you ? — A. Yes; and besides |wi' thus f^ot clear of tlie fogs which prevail a great deal on our coast lliiiiiig the suiniuer. After we get through Canso, into North Bay, we liiin't with little fog. (^ Have you any fog on your coast in winter ? — A. Yes, sometimes; liiit not very often". »e^ ' ^-J JBLoELJflKH '^<^«M[ O^iK ^i-^^TTi ^(M^afi ''^: :t^ '■^^i--. .-1^ 1 n-s- 2788 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. i!"' 11 i ii Inn Q. Is not the wesitber on yonr coast in winter very liiuil on the ric gill};' of vessels— on tlie sails, and so on ? — A. Yes. ° Q. It is a good deal harder on them tiian is snninier or fall wcallior in the bay, before the stormy season sets in ;'— A. Certainly; inore wcjir and tear is sntfered in this regard in winter than in summer on iuiy coast, Q. Von admit, then, that if it was not for the bay iishing in your time, you could not have kept the crews together, as you could nor do so mi your own coast '! — \. Well, that was one reason why I went to rlie bav, when we lost a man ou our shore we could get another, but tliisoni' sioned loss of time. Q, You could not keep your crews there ? — A. When wt' would lose one we coidd iind another to replace him, but this caused loss of tiiiu. Q. And time is money ? — A. Of course. Q. Therefore you made more money by taking your crews to tlio ;;iilt than you could have made if you had lished on your shore, losinj; ml replacing men the wliile ? — A. I suppose that sometimes we would tlni-; make more money and sometimes we would not; we had to run the risk of it. Q. You saved yourself inconvenience and came to the gulf:'— A, 1 used to go there some seasons, when 1 had a mind to do so. Q. l)i!■ ., f -1 ,^ .•-, -A, I liow- U of ilie is to In; Iho jiulgi'j Live p;one ! [y ijy t^'*^' lilt is tlie : Ittertliciel la coiiven- lislievy is |uimbi'i'0>l lit I l'!'"| 0, But liy;ure.s soinetiinea do not stand iMvcstitJiition I — A. Fifjuroa, tlicy say, iiiwiiys t<^ll tlio truth ; " flyures cannot lie." (». Hv (!i>inin«i to tho bay you also avoided the fogs in summer on vdiir coast .'—A. Yes. ' Q, 1 liclievo tliat either there is no fojj at all or very little (ofj in the r.iiyot^St. Lawrence during the summer? — A. There is then very little iitir. Q. You have been there from IS^T ?— A. Xo, from 1830. Q. Up to 1808, oif and on, almost every year? — A. Yes. (J, And during that time you saw very little fog in the bay? — A. No, iiiit a ;^n'at deal. (). What was the duration of the longest fog you over saw in the l,i,\ ;— A. I could not tell you. Sometimes the fog lasted for twelve lioiii's, but 1 do not know tliat it continued longer than that ; such is nut to my knowledge, as far as 1 can recollect, but it might have beou loiiser sometimes. Q. It WHS of very rare occurrence that the fog lasted longer ?--A. I think so. We very rarely saw a fog after wo were once in the bay ; up liv tlie island and past East Toint and up on Banks Orphan and Biad- li'). and siicii like, you would lifive very little fog. Q. Wore you in the bay in 18.j1 ? — A. Yes; I then made two trips. {j. You must have been in the bay most of that season ? — A. Well 1 (). Voii were in the bay in ISol and 1853 ; do you recollect of seeing any t'ofj at all there during either of these years ? In 18.j3 you were iu tiie Uiuliliind Lass? — A. In 18.")! I was in the Alexander. (^». ill isol you made two trips ? — A. I did not go home with my first trip; 1 landed it with Mr. Martel, at Arichat ; I had not tinie to go liDiiio, aiulso 1 landed 314 barrels there, and he advanced me the money to lit out. il III that season you were two trips in the bay, during the whole of tlu' summer and fall : when did you go out in the fall ? — A. I think I left home on the 7th of .Tidy ; 1 usually left homo on my fishing trips on tlie 7th of July, and I think that I arrived home about the 18th or the m\\ of October. (I You were in the bay during all the summer and a large portion of I till' fall ; do you recollect any one day during this period when you saw a foo; in the bay in 1S5L ? — A. Well, [ cannot say that it was then foggy, i luit there was a most almighty smoke. It was so smoky that you could ntsi'e anything for three, four, or five days; and owing to this fact [that year I got out of the mackerel, and getting behindhand, I had to I land those mackerel and could not go home. Where did this smoke come from ? — A. From all round ; from fires latMiiaiiiiclii and on the West Sliore, and up that way; the smoke was .•>o dense that you could not see half a mile for three, four, or live days, [all the way from Xorth Cape over to Escuminac. Q. I suppose that no person with eyes in his head could help knowing Itlii' ilili'ereuce between that and fog? — A. Certainly; there was smoke |but no fog. •i. Did that smoke hurt your rigging in any way? — A. Xo; the only l^vin which it hurt us was by preventing us getting any mackerel. Q. Do you recollect having seen any fog in the bay in 18.53? — A. O, I'iftll, these are questions that I could not answer correctly, and I do not l^viint to answer unless I can do so. We do not care anything at all «boiit fogs, and though it might be foggy sometimes, we would not I'liiKk anything about it, or remark it. There is nothing in a fog that Foiild be thought of importance. ..<-«! '^t m «w » ' A.A. :■:» t-''3 mm- w. i^^Hfi^:." --.n ■■^mi ' ' ■ ... sti {|f*H4.;^J 14^4- ^^■■Ej ftiTf" -"^^^ ^H^hI ^^^^^^H^g S ' ■ ■ *■" ^ ' ffiSHSP^P 1^ ||:j{ti'i^'P I ii i ■ar ■ H£S4;:^.^: 2790 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. You landed these mackerel at Arichat! — A. \ea. Q. Did you afterwards take them away? — A. Yes; but not until I bad taken to Gloucester the 214 barrels which I caught on my second trip. 1 then returned to Arichat, took these 314 barrels on boanl, |i,ii,i charges, and came home. Q. Did not the landing of these mackerel at Arichat oniihlo you to come back to the bay and take another fare? — A. Well, it eniii)l('(i me to go back ; but the heft of the vessels went home. I got out of the luack erel on account of the smoke. Q. The right of so landing cargoes, or the exerfise of this pvivilc;;!'. really does enable you to n«ake a second aiul thinl trip, as tliL'. case nmv be? — A. I think that if such landing was not practiced it wuiild \w money in our pockets ; if we did not so land mackerel it would be inoiif y in the owners' pockets. Q. Does it enable you to make extra trips, or more trips than would otherwise bo the case l — A. Well, 1 should suppose that it woiiltl ;;ivt' us a little more time in the bay. Q. And more opportunity for catching fish ! — A. It gives us |)orli!i]K 10 days more. 1 have made the passage from Canso imme and baik again, and packed my mackerel, in 10 days. Q. But you would not put that time forward as a si)ecimeu vuya;,'e !-- A. No. Q. Uow long woidd it take ordinarily to make this i)assai>(' .'—A. Well, two weeks or fifteen days would give ample time to go anil come back and pack the mackerel, and tit out. Q. Would not a fortnight in the height of the fishing season he a very important period, particularly if mackerel were then iik'ntifiil .'—A, Mackerel might be plentiful in bad weather. Q. I mean during good fishing, with all the circumstances favonihlf for it? — A. If all the circumstances were favorable, I could load omo; these vessels in live days. Q. And those live days would then be very important ? — A. Yes; in five days I could fill up, if the mackerel were just as 1 wanted tlieiii ; liiit ! it would be pretty hard to get them in that way. Q. Are not mackerel fish that move about the bay from place t^l place ? — A. Yes. Q. Sometimes they go inshore and sometimes they go out ? — A. Hii ing the first part of the year they go to the nor'ard, butafter Si'i)tciiiluf| thej' move right round and come to the southward, school after scluiol-j that is their track, and the man who keeps the best ruu of the iiiackeivl gets the most of them. Q. (Jan you swear that they come southward ? — A. No ; but I kiimvi the way in which they are caught. Say they are on Banks Orplian auiij Bradley, then the next thing they will be gone to North Capo, aiulnwtj they will perhaps be down square oil" East Point ; and they will go along in that way. Q. There are no marks about mackerel by means of which tlieyma^ bo distinguished ? — A. Not a bit of it; they may be caught off Xoi'tl (Jape day after day, ami then sink, and afterward rise and sink againJ leaving no sight of them an.y where ; when they come u}), we niay^'i'tr good day's work, 1~) barrels or such like for perhaps two or tliive daysj and he who keei)S the best run of their movements, will obtain tlie bes| share of the tish. (J. The mackerel which are caught on Banks Orphan and Bradlcy,anJ are afterward lost sight of, you cannot pretend to say you rocogiiize the same tish, in the fish which afterward rise up off North Cape aiH AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2791 Flnst Ciipe? — A. Well, I cannot identity them as the same ; hnt that is the way ia which wo catch thorn, whether they are the same niaclvorel ui' not. Q. Ciiii you undertake to say tliat there are not dillbront schools of ii,,„.'|j,,|.,.| J— A. Of course not. I c.innot toll you that. (». Ditl you over take thoin early in the s(>riu{; when they aro very ,,(,u\»_A.' Well, otui year I wont out in the Al)i},'ail for early niackorel iito North IJiiy ; hut that is the only year 1 did so. This was in isril. 1 ilicn tislicd on Banks Orphan and IJradloy. {}. Vdii did not net into the bay that year until the middloof .Tuly ? — A. 'in till' Abigail ? {). In IS")! you said you loft home on the 7lh of July? — A. In soino vessels 1 left home on that date ; but 1 loft in that vessel in June. {). 1 ihiiikyou told me thatyoumade two tri[>s to the bay that year .' — A.niiil. {}. And that you loft home on the 7th of July ? — A. I said the 7th of .Iiily liiM'o, but [ did not say the 7th of July yesterday. 1 did not say aiiytliing; al)()Ut the 7th of July, except to-«lay. 1 loft on the 7th of July iiitlie lioso Skorritt, and in the Oliver Cromwell, and for a numboi of v(;us 1 left Gloucester on that date. ' [). Wlieii was this * — A. 1 went out in the Abij;'ail in June, ISll. (^t, You told me previously that in 1S5L you made two trips and . I'.iit previouslv! — A. Yes. g, When ;'— A. In 1851. (). Where were you seized in 1851? — A. I was not seized, 1 never WHS .seized. {}, WiiH any attempt made to seize yon ? — A. Yes. (^ Wh< IV were you then tishing t — A. It was at the last of my trip wheii I got those 214 barrels. (i). Where were you tishing ? — A. Wide oflt" Margaree — between that iiiiilCheticanip. Q. AViiieh cutter attempted to seize you? — A. A man named Cutler, from (juvsborough, was there in a little pinkey ; he was a spy, and he used to make compromises when vessels got a good deck of mackerel iiiivwliere and were dressing them inshore. He would take 20 or 10 iKiiTei.s, making as good a bargain as he could. This Cutler was in this liiiikev, and I was at anciior under Margaree Island at the time. Q. AVero you lying close inshore ? — A. I was at anchor and not yiiiij!:. Q. Lying close inshore ? — A. Yes, right close in nnder Margaree for i siielter. lie did not attempt to take me; if he had 1 would have giveu jliimaclout, but he took another vessel, the Harp, Captain Andrews. I kept a watch all night, but they did not come alongside ; if they had, I we would have given them grape-shot, I bet. Q. Uad you grape-shot on board ? — A. We had a gun loaded with lugs, or something of that sort. y. Ill fact, then, you were never boarded by a customs or seizing I officer ?— A. I was boarded by an officer who came for light-money, at I Little Canso, that same j'ear. Q. Did you pay the light-money ?— A. No. Q. W'by ? — A. Because this man was not authori^^ed to receive it. Q. What did you do ? — A. I hove him into his boat, of course, and I got rid of him. Q. You knew that the light-money was due ? — A. Certainly ; and I jwas williug to pay it, had the right man come for it. 2794 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. so Hill' Q. Did he represent himself to be a custom-house otticer ?— A. Ve,, Q. Did you a»k liim for his authority? — A. Yes. Q. And did he show it? — A. No. Q. And then you threw him overboard ? — A. I told him lie liad jo leave, and seeing he would not go, I seized him by the naps of the nei k and the breeches and put him into his boat. He was bound to take nie because I had landed a poor girl. Q. Was this girl contraband ? — A. Yes, I suppose they called her > at any rate. I do not know that she is now in town, but slie her lawyer Blanchard's wife afterward. I merely took her on hoiini as a passenger, and lan vessel f Says I, " I am for lack of a better." Says he, " 1 seize tiiis vessel," and with red chalk he put the King's broad K on the iiiaiiiinasr, He wanted the jib hauled down in order to have the boat taken mi board — we had not come to an anchor — but I told him that he would have to wait a while. Finally he came down below and 1 took the ni pers out of a canister; and being a little excited, of course, in liauiiii;; off the cover a receipt for light-dues, which I had paid tiiat wii, dropped on the fore(!astle floor. He picked it up and said he would yivc me a receipt on the back of it. Says 1, " Who are you ?" lie aiisweml " I am Mr. Jiigelow, the I'ghtcollector." •' Well," says I, " wlieiean your documents ?" Says he, " 1 have left them ashore." "Then,' says 1, " goashore, you vagabond, you have no business here." Says lie, " Wdn't you pay me f' "Not a red cent," says I ; " out with you." He cried out. "Put the helm down." Says I, "Put the helm up "; but he (^aine inctty near shoving us ashore, as we were within 10 fathoms of tiio rocks, Says he, " Who are you ?" I said, " I am Mr. Pattillo." Says lie, •' Vdii vagabond, I know the Patlillos." " Well," says I, " then you must know me, for there are only two of us." Says he, " I will take yonaiiv| how; 1 will have a cutter from liig Can^o. There will be a maiiolwai there; and if there is not a man-of-war, there will bo a cutter; and ill there is not a cutter I will raise the militia, for I am bound to take yoii.'j 1 asked him if he meant to do all that, ami he said he was just tlie iiiiiif to do it. I seized hint to put him back into his boat, and lie striiijuMl and told me that it took a man to handle him ; with that 1 iiiadeahiii.;e| at hinj, and jumped 10 feet. If he had not avoided me, I would h.ivej taken the head off his body. 1 then seized liim and cluujked him iiiio| bis boat. Then three cutters came down and chased me. Q. But they did not catch you ? — A. No; that was the time when tluv cliased me at Port Hood and around there, and fired 11 balls— lL*|Mmi)d ers — at me, one boring her right through and through. The first sliod flew about G feet over my head, through the mainsail; the iiextwoiij right under the bends, through a plank, cut the timber, and went throu^'B a sail and into the main boom ; the next struck on the port side, takiiij a piece of about 5 or 0 inches out of the bulwarks, and strikiii;,' tlie imiii chains; the next knocked a piece off the forward part of the inaiiiuiasll AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2795 . Yes. iiad to iki' luf her SI) l)ec;»liii' I'll as ;i I sod liy nil liim .\. I yn\ t woulil r>ul(l iiut tiiki' my liimllMl ;l lis WDiiU (T of tlli^ st'i/e tills iiainmavt. taken oii he woulil )k tlu' ii;\- III hauliii;' liat year. kvoiilil ;;ivi' ' aiiswi'iiMl wlii'iv aiv 'n,"saysl. Ill', " Wmi't cried oat. |inu' itvi'tty tlio rocks. [ lie, •' Vuii I you iiitist Ice yon aiiv- inau-ot'-\v;ir 1 :(>r; anil ijl take you." I 1st tlie ui.ml ;trii)lH'd cilj |ule a \wm Ivoultl ll'>«| ll liini iiit"! when till Jj .rJ|)omiil le first sliotf next weiij Mit thvou;:l| side, takii maiiiuiaslj about 4 inolics above the saddle of the main-boom ; and the next struck in the windlHSt-bit; five shots struck us, and we were chased between 0 and "i milf s. g, When did you go to Newfoundland for bait? — A. I was there, in Fortune Bay, in the Tiger. I was on the first vessel that ever got her- rings there. Q. Did you get the fish right inshore? — A. Yes, we got them through the ice; I was frozen in. Q. When was this? — A. I left Cape Cod on this trip in 1838, antl I arrived home again in 1839. Q. Did you stay during the winter at Fortune Bay ? — A. Yes. Q. You got a cargo through the ice ? — A. Yes, up at the head of the 1)1 V« Q. Insliore! — A. Yes, right inshore. An army of 30 men, all armed to the teeth, came there to take us — five men and a black boy ; but I drove the whole calabash of them off. Q. You succeeded in securing a cargo, and in getting safe home ? — A. Yes. (}. Did you sell any of your cargo before you left ? — A. No. (). Did you lose your papers? — A. Yes; they were taken from me. I liandod them to the man who came to see about it, when I went on the ice. lie said his name was (lad in, and that he came from Hcrbor Briton, on my asking who he was; I then asked to see his documents, and he handed them to me. I then knew what I had to do, and 1 gave him my papers; but I was too honest; I ought to have kept po.ssession of his ikxiinieiit.s until he had handed me back my papers, but did not do so. I'iiially, 1 requested him to give me my papers, but he went off with his army. Q. Yoii staid all winter there? — A. We stopped there as long as we could, ami tooit herring out of the ice. We got out of the ice on the 17th ofAitril and reached home on the 14th of May. No. 68. Prof. ^PKNC'KuF. Baikd, assistant secretary of the Smith.^^onian fnsti- jiiitioii, Wasliingtoii, and United States Commissioner of Kish and Fish- eries, called on behalf of the (jovernment of the Uuited States, swon-, laiidexainiiied. lly Mr. Dana: (Question. It is not necessary, of course, to ask this witne.ss any qnes- Itioiisto show his position or general acquaintance with and knowledge [of tlie subject. I would like, however, to have you state, if you please, |a.< i am gtdiig to give, by and by, some of the results of your iiiquirie.s — llwonld like to have you state particularly how you have obtained, and jl'rom what sources you have obtained, information respecting the fisheries lot late, besides what you have studied in books. — Answer. I have becui liutbe habit for five years past of spending from two to three months loiithe sea coast, for the purpose of prosecuting inquiries into the con- dition of the fisheries, to determine whether, as alleged, the American «ast fisheries have been decreasing, and to ascertain what steps, if any, might be adopted to remedy the ditliculty, if found. I have, in pursu- jjnceof that work, established stations in successive years at Fastport, rortland, Salem, Woods HoU, on the south coast of New England, and ptNoank. And I have had with me a force of experts, naturalists, and leutleineii interested in the biology of fishes, and have endeavored to 1 *.»ir':;-*l' ^M(V<ersous engaged in the fisheries? — A. L have, by the lit'lpiti a ])honographi(; secretary, taken the testimony of many luimlivils oi Hsii ermen along the coast in reference principally to questions in tlit> natural history of tishes. The facts as to the statistics of the fislicrifs liii\> come out incidentally, and were not the original object of my iiiqiiir\, I was interested more in determining what kinds of tlsii wc iiail, wliat natural, physical, or moral causes intliien(;ed them, and what wniililpnili. ably be the lesult of these causes, and how any evil intiiienciss eoiikl li>' remedied. Q. Then have you eutployed lishcrmcn to examine and \\\,\\n> jn quiries! — A. I have had in my employ several men, some for tlicwliolc year, or several years in succession, and others for a part of Mie vtai, who have taken a series of printed questions that I pre|>ared in r('<;itiii to the natural history of Ushes and pursued these in(iuiries in ii'^rj m, •where I myself could not goconveniently, especially in the winter sfa.sua or in the early spring. ii,. Then you issued some printed circulars? — A. Yes; a t; rent many thousand blanks, inviting responses, and I have had a reasonahio pn centage t)f returns, of which 1 consider a fair percentage uioiv or h- reliable. IJnt, as a general rule, as everybody knows, lisherniiMi iiin) , less about (ish than they do about anything else. That is to say, tiny know how to catch fish and the practical details of their business, but of their natural history they know very little. About such (inostionsas the tiuie of their migration, the rate of their growth, ilieir sitawning seasojis, and other matters, only here and there will you lind a man wlw has observed and noted the facts closely enough to bo able to answer your questions. Q. You emploj'cd some sucih persons ? — A. I have one man osppcialiy, a skilled iishernuin, resident on the south coast of New lOnglaiid, ai whom I employ to visit the dill'erent llsliing statious and gather staj tistics. Q, Have you any of those circulars about you ? — A. I have one. (Cir cular produced.) Q. (Ivcading circular.) There are something like nearly ninety difj ferent questions. Under one head you require the man's name, i^c Then as to the distribution of tishes : what kind of flsh he has in liisi neighborhood, their abundance, migrations, movements, food, leliitJDiii ships, reproduction, tartificial culture, diseases, pursuits, captnre,tlu'irj economical value, application, i&c. — A. That circular was issued in ISiJ I have issued a great many editions of it. Then 1 haveanotinncirciila^ which refers more particularly to the coast and river fisheries. 1 liavfl only issued this within the present year. liy Hon. Mr. ]velIogg : Q. Was that about the time, Trofessor?— A. Yes; the first tiiiiiij I did was to distribute these questions in order to get as niiich in formation as I could. 1 have some eight or ten special circulars, Imjj these are the ones I have most used. I have issued special circulars fi)l the cod and mackerel and menhaden, but of these I have not coiiia with me. By Mr. Dana : Q. Uere (referring to circular spoken of as issued during the presenl AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2797 iitiim. u iiiul fisher- i)f lisli naluni! ■S llllVr iiiquin. il, whiii ilil imili- l'ouIiI 111' iKvkt' ill- lie win lie lie yiMr, II i'i';;i\ril IT Sl'il.SOU •cat maiiY iiiiblo i»'i- IV or 1*"^'' iniMi kini ' say, tlii'V siiit'ss, liut lU'stioiisiis s\»a\viiing a mail wliu to ivuswer es\)0('iaViy, i:4\;Ulil, lUul] ;,ithi'r st;i-] jioiii'. ^*'i^] I ninety iW- 1 name, iSie. (has in liisi 1(1, veliitiou-j tture, tlunri lu'«l in I'i'l'l liorcirciiliit llivst tliiii' niucli itt^ |-c,nUirs, ba( lircularsffl not copii the preseri yPiir)yoi> liHve the home flsherics, the river fisheries; they don't cotno (iircdiy iiiul»'i' <>'ir cogiii/aiice. — A. Tlieso are tliis coast and river lisli- (.iipsi»inti('nlarl,y. 0. Not tin' 'ieep sea 7 — A. Only incidentally. They are sea coast fish, lint not (Mitside. There is a schelf (iillv ac<|iiainted with the subject? — A. Yes; I have, ot course, use r('i«>i'ts of the Canadian fisheries. AVhat little I know of the lish- (.rics in Canada I have learned from these documents. (J. Wlu'iever there are doc'uments published by the Unili tl States voii iiave them? — A. Yes; 1 have them; and I have European docu- ments. Kii;ilish, and Norwegian, &C. I believe 1 have everything. (^». I will (piestion you lirst about codfish. 1 want you to state what is your oitinion about the cod as a fish for all sorts of comnu'rhical range equally exten.sivo. I W- lieve they are not in Spitsbergen. Q. What is the most important locality? — A. Probably the niostim ])ortaut single locality that furnishes the greatest amount of fish witli tlR> least possible labor in the shortest possible time is that in tlie vicinity of the Lofoden Islands, on the northwest coast of Norway. That is a region where usually twenty-five millions of Hsh are taUi'n in tliw months by some twenty-five thousand men. The Dogger Bank, in tlie North Sea, is another European locality. In America the most cxtwi sive stor^ K of cod are found, 1 suppose, on the Grand Banks and the Georges. Tliey are found, itcrhaps, also on the great banks ott' the cnast of Labrador, twenty or thirty miles off the coast, extentling for hundmls | of miles. Q. Now give the Commission some notion of the abundance of cod fish. — A. Well, I have covered that point iu my reply to the previuiis| question. It is found iu the greater part of those regions at sonic po' tion of the year. It is usually more abundant in the spring or sunnmr, I autumn or winter, iu each locality, in numbers only to be niea(?uredbv| the ability of man to capture. Q. What do you say of their migrations ? — A. The cod is a flsli the I migrations of which cannot be followed readily, because it is a deel)^seaj titsh and does not show on the surface as the mackerel and herring; biitl so far as we can ascertain, there is a partial migration, at least someofj the fish don^t seem to remain in the same localities the year roniidT They change their situation in search of food, or in consequence of thej variations in the temperature, the percentage of salt in the water, orj some other cause. In the south of New England, south of CapeCod,! the fishing is largely off shore. That is to say, the tish are oti the coasif iu the cooler water in the summer, and as the temperature fails ap^ preaching autumn, and the shores are cooled down to a certain degree, they come in and are taken within a few miles of the coast. In thi northern waters, as far as I can understand from the writings of I'roS Hind, the fish generally go off" shore in the winter-time, excepting on the south side of Newfoundland, where, I am infornted, they uiaintaio their stay, or else come in in large abundance ; but in the Bay of Fniid,\i on the coast of Maine, and still further north, they don't remain as tlosT to the shore in winter as in o^^her seasons. ' ii. Take them as a whole, then, they are a deep-sea fish. J (Imil mean the deep sea as distinguished from the Banks ? — A. An ontsidj tish ? Well, tliey are to a very considerable extent. The larjicst catiL^ are taken off shore, an,ral)iiiidance. (I Hut on the coast of America ? — A. We know there is one large .^pawiiiiiggrountl in Cape Cotlierea long reef about 4 miles wide and about !.'<) miles long, and the cod go in there and furnish a very important winter fishery. Q. Tlu'ii, 1 presume, there are similar spots along the whole Ameri- can coast? — A. Probably they spawn at the (reorges, and undoubtedly ill H great many localities in the JSiiy of 8t. Lawrence and on the Hanks, although I cannot speak of that, because I haven't had an opportunity ufkuowing. (^. What are the relations of cod to other fish 1 — A They are friends and enemies. They are warriors and victims. They are extremely voracious, and devour everything that is small enough, without any kind of <;unsideration, and in turn are consumed in all their stages by siicli tisli as can master them. The adult fish are principally interfered with by horse mackerel, the bluefish, the porpoise, and by sharks, and anything else big enough to swallow them, instead of being swallowed b\ tlieiu. It is merely a question of size whether the codfish is the active or passive agent. Q. Now, what fish do they devour mostly ? — A. They eat everything, but they live very largely on herring or mackerel, or any of the small lish found on the sea bottoms. They devour crabs and small lobsters. The stomach of the cod is one of the bi^st dredges you can have. You tini! there sometimes rare specimens that ire never found elsewhere. Q. Do they digest the shells ? — A. No, they digest the nutriment and then throw out the shells. Sometimes you find the shells packed solid June inside of another like saucers in a pile. The wonder is how they uuipty tliem out. Q. But they do ? — A. I suppose they must. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. They devour them whole and then when the meat is (Mi found to contain from tliroo to .sovcn milljun o{;r;!i),^ actual count. Turbot, I think, arc one of tlio very few llsli tli.it n", beat it. They run up to twelve millions. ii. Wo do not have the real tnrbol f — A. No. From three f.< Hvi- m-i lion mit;ht he considered a fair anniuil estimate of the e;;;;s ut tlic ( ,| (isli. From three to live millions of ripe e^gs have been roinul in iht. ovary of one sin^ific cod, and nnire. Q. What becomes of these egjjs when discharfjed ? — A. Tlic i|ii»'siio[| of the spawiiinfjf places forcodllsh has l>een one that was ori^iiiiailyvcrv uncertain. The researches of naturalists have shown That tln'sic !•.';;» are discharged in the open sea on the Lofoden Hanks. Soiii«> miles tinm the shore they can be found lloatin<; at the surfa(;e, and ciin In* t.ikfn U|) by the btishel in towing nets. The eggs are very sniall. iVihii mi- twentieth to one (ittieth of an in<;h in diameter, and tiiey liav** a Mini! globule of oil to nudvc them tloat. (^. Now, do these eggs all produce fish unless they are injnrcil InsuniH way ? — No; there are a great many contingencies. It is not likely t!iat;i very large percentage will be fertilized by the male. Tiiereis ahvavian uncertainty about that. Then, as they ar«' floating in the water. evt-iv lish that may be fond of that kind of sustenance tlcvours tliemvi-rv gieed ly, and by the time they aie hatched out, a large pcreeiitai;!- i> de!str«)yed in this way. Then, the y«mng fry, wlnle in a liel|iless stat.-, are devoured in large numbers. I should think it extremely piDltilii^ that not one huiiilred thousand out of the three millions — pi>s>il)|y iiu: ten thousand — attain to a condition in which they are able To takt'i.n.' of themselves. It is entirely i:ni)ossible to make any estimate. W- know, however, from the analogy of other lisli — from the f lets in re;;ir.l to salmon, shad, and that kind of tish we (;an make ati approximation. inill \ in soni"' fly tliat I il\v;iy>;in ter. I'ViT. (ii'in v.'iv loss stall-. ■ |)nil».iH'i> issiWlv lint » tillv*- 1 It'- iiiitf. ^^"•• * in rt'^Mt'l oxiin.iU'>». s»list.im'i'< lU'' a liulf I .III. Tlwt ' wliiMi tliel nMttT. I'lit llftlu'V iliol ic «'(ilor!— I [Voll WlUl'.ill I voll wi'tej ■ it !- V ll nittiU'""^ llioii;*. ^^"f till' tni^^l' *elv ill r''^J Relieve it 4 In over tlij [)f li>li <:eij the tww| \i:\n mirit'iit as any oIImt .' — A. I kiniw it i.s. Tlu' IiuUaii.s, tlu* AU'iitiau Miiiitlt'is. Iiavo ns«'(l tliriii. (), Tiiat Wii.s not (U'livt'd IVoiii ns f — A. No. Travt'U'is Iiav«' t'oiiiMl tlniii ill ii^<' vvlicn the iirst wliitu men inline ainon^ tiietii. We liavu siK-cMinciis ill y:reat niiinlier of the trawl of tliv native .savage. Ours lijivc only lieeii brounht in within tlie hist live or six . years. I don't iliiiik it !>* possihU^ to llx the thite of the llist u.se of tlie trawl. They liiivi' Ix'eii traced back to siuth a period that tlieru is no po.ssiliility of siviii}.' that it was introduced by this man or known to that one. (I. What are the advantai^es of the method of trawl-lishiii); for cod ? — \. The alleged advantages, as far as I have heard them si»oken of, are 'lielar;;('r yield of the tishery. The same number of men in the .same tiiiic. uimI ill the same locality, will catch a larger fare of llsh with the trawl than with hand linos, 'i hen they rei|nirc less exposure of the JKsh- tTiiKMi. They can bo set over night and left <1ow-n through the day at tiiiK'H when the weather would bo too inclement for handline tishing. Then it requires much less skillful flshornien to use the trawl than the baiiil lines. It is merely a matter of |iutting un the bait and throwing it (ivH hoard, and it does not re(|uire the delicate manipulation and skill that the liaiidline Hshing does, and therefore does not call into play to •Jipsaiiie extent the functions of the practiced flsherniaii. 1^1. Now,aretheroany disadvantagescoiuiected w itli the nseof tlietrawi alli'jjcd or actual f — A. There are a great many accusations brought, j;;aiii.>*t it. How far these are valid it is impossible for me to say. The |iriiici|)al objection 1 su]>pose is that it tempts all kinds of fish. One ob- i wtioii is that it takes fish that are too small size. They use a smaller tioiik tiian the ordinary hand lines, and they say it takes a great many iiiiiiiarketahle lish, which allects the supply. Then another complaint btiiat the ti.sh being longer in the water are liable to be destroyed by the (ii'inedations of sharks, dogtish, and tish of that clas.s. Another |(iliifCtion is that after the (ish are caught the marketable llsh, owing to Itlifir wi'i|>lit, slip off from the small hook anil lloat away and are lost. lAnothcr ulijeetiou is that they catch what they isill mother lisli, that is Itlie parent tish, which some iishermeii think should be left to reproduce lllifir kind. 1^ It they are taken after depositing their spawn you only lose one lijli!— .\. Yes; but it is probable, judging from (he testimony of lisher- Ihhi. that the tish can be taken during tlieir s})awning .season with a |ti.i«l when they will not bite a hook. As a general thing very few will lliiie on the ordinary line, but tlio trawl bait is said to be attractive liitlu'in, and the tish are believed to be more likely to take the bait at |tii.it tiiiie from a trawl than from a hook on an ordinary line. ^l Well, taking the reasons given both ways, w hat conclusion have t'iKoiiH' to about the use of the trawl for cod-lisliing f — A. Well, it is |ii>t 0111' of the wholesale modes of capture, which it is dillieult to avoid, eeaiise the tendency is to cenlrali/e, to accomplish the same work by iexiwnditure of money and of human force. i). Do you think it is a case for })roliibition or regulation ? — A. I don't how it can be either prohibited or regulated. 1 hardly see. Of «rse 1 have had no practical experience. 1 may say that the trawl is very much less ou the coast of America than on the coast of Eug- wlaiiil of Europe generally, and I have failed to Hud anywhere in the iglisli writers or in the testimony of the British Fishery Commissiou p.U'oiiiplaiut there such as occurs in America. There is a great coui- liiit there against what is called the beam-trawl. When they speak of etrawl they don't mean what we mean. What they refer to is a trawl 17(JF ,i li, 1 1 ■'' '•'>*.•> ; .■■*i % ■'■r %P» F<-;i : ill 2802 AWARD OF THE FISIIKKV COMMISSION. Miicli as WH iiso ill (tiir sti'iiiiicr to riiptiin' llomult'is ami mkIi i\^^^ W'Uvrvyvv yon mi-c tlu^ \M)I(1 liawl hsimI liy an Kiiylisli m lM\„y, writer ,v, and, tlicii'loi*', tlicic is a ;;r«-at «lral of va;:ii<-iicsHiii|,{ iTior involved in tlic coiisicU'iation ol tin* siilijiTt iiiil«'ss ym\ luiow wlia- tln^ particular spciikcr or witness inraiis Ity a trawl, lint s|ic;il* find in tlic rcpoits of tlu^ linlisii J''islifiy < oininis^ion any rtiiiijilaiiit i,, aiiyltody t'xccpl iIiiim' <'ascs of coiiiitlaiiit against flu' trawiiiiM. ,ii ),mi_. liiu*. OiK' was that it destroyed tlie .\oiiiij; lisli, and tlie others ufU'tliy they iiitetiered w ilh the nets. They eoiii|ilained that the liaiiiiiiil i„.r especially, which is a pailiciilar l^iiid nsetl in l-!n;;land, was lutiltil ii^ these lines and injured. (.). On the other hand, the net was in the way of the trawl .'—A. No;! tin' trawl was in the way of the nets. The trawleis didn't e.in- iilMnitj the net, hnt the net lisheriiien did coinplaiii of the trawl. Hiir I ||,i\<' looked eaiefiilly to lind wtietlier there was any eoinplaint against tli.it | line, and 1 haven't found it. 'I'liere may he, l)iit 1 am <|iiite ((iiilidin- it has not assumed anything liki^ the aiita;ronistic features aitd iiiiims. sioii of ma;;nitiide that it has in the United States and Aineriva "ciil erally. (>. \Ve mean by the trawl a Ion-' line wei;:hted or anelieii'd wli sinks to the bottom ami has A. It has itranehes thief ttct In That is called a Ion;; line or bnltow. if. TIm'Ii at intervals there are buoys .' — A. ^ es. i). T«) show the position. They are usually in a stiiii;:ht line .'—A. ICiirope tiiere are ineneially several shcuter lines united in one loiiuliinj so inneli so that on the coast ot (Ireat IJrilain they have a lii I traul six ol' iM;;ht miles in h'n;<;tli. In America the travvliii;;on the 11 inks jj generally by means of live slnnter lines radiating; frotn the vcssi-l, In in England the trawling is done .^eiieially on a large scale, w it limit rn\ii boats, diieetly from a vessel of Ibrty or sixty t'Uis, and the eiiliie miii uf lines is united in (Uie and sunk. (j. TIh'V are hauled in from aboard the vessel, and not iinm aim, at all .'—A. Vi's. (^. ]Xow, what do they call that which we call a tiawl, if it is imiI all *. — \. They <'all it a long line or bnltow. i}. What liait do you lind to be the best for (-odfish ?— A. Wiil, ean't say 1 lind any bait to be the best, because I never eaii;;lit iiiai|| tlsh, but I know* that everything of an animal nature, and to sniiu' J tent vegetable, has been used for the (tod. (Generally, in Anieiica.iY bait consists of herring, menhaden, mackerel, a portion of tlu'iitli! the flsh, sea-birds of various kinds, (;lams, .sipiid, and the various sintij of shells, and in fact anything that (ran begot ht»l(l of. Q. Well, now, what are the methods of preservation of this bail .' ^1 have heard of their using salt clams, ^.i;. lias much attciilit'ii Ini paid to the possibility of greater preservation of the bait than wi' li;ij ever yet had ? — A. Yes ; the science of preserving bait, as well asdl t| preservation of tish on shipboard, is very low indeed, far Itiiow wl can be api>lied, and I have no doubt w ill lie applied, both in keepiii;;!" lor food and in keeping it for bait. Q. Now, will you state what observation you have made respMtl the method of preserving fresh bait from the start all tlie vovf through? — A. Asa general rule it is now pre.served, either by siilij or freezing. Of course they keep it as long as it will reniaiii witlij AWARD OF TIIK FISHLUV COMMISSION. 2803 „iliii}r, jiinl wlicii .voii li.ivi' t» of wliom I was eliairman, was exiiiliiti'tl I'V an experimenter who placed a i^u-al Jar ot oysters in our riuiiii |)n>|i:iretl in that way. I think altout the 1st of An;,Mist those were ,|,i(Til ill oiir room and tliey wer«' U we nnistered iiii('(Hirii;;(' to pass jiid;;inent upon this preparation, ami we tasted these M •iters and coidd not lind them atVected. We would have preterii'd ah- Mpliitciy t'i('>li oysters, hut there was nolhin:^ re[m;4:iiant to tiie sensihili- tii'S, iiinl I lii'lii^ve w»' c,;tns!imi*d tiie entire jar. And we ;;a\«' iheex- hiliitor, without any tpn'stion, an aw.ird lor an adinira)>le new metlitxi. iTliatiiiiiii is now nsni'^j that process on a very lar>^e scale in New York lor lie invscrvation ot lish ol'all kinds, and he claims he <'an keep tliem any ,|iii;tli (»!' time and allow them to he used as fresh lish tpiite easily. I |(liiii"t sii|»;)i)se any lisheriinn ever tho i^iit of iisin;^ any [Mt'si'rvalivo |n<'i'pt suit. (^1. That is entirely expel imental ? — A. If is cxperiiuental, but it proin- |W"t vfiy well. Now, liorax is one of the siiltstamu's that will jni^serve Linial matter a j^ieat deal hetter than salt and w ithont chaii;;iii^ the te.x- Itiiiv. Aci'tic acid is another preparation, or citric acid will ke»'|t lish a j'iii;'tiiin' without any chiii;,'e of the ipiality. and hy soakiii;;' it in fresh iiiitr tor a iiltle while the sli;4htly ai-idul itetl taste will i)e removed. I jjoii't iu'lii've a (toil will know the Uillereiice between a clam preserved itliat way and a fresh <'lam. II. Now, alioiit ice. We know a frood sition or disorganization goes on until the lish becomes musty, ilty, and tasteless, unlit for the food of man or beast. IQ, Well, there is a newer method of preservation, is there not .' — A. Vre is u hetter method than using ic«'. Tlie method described by the ^liiiik witness, by using what is equivalent to snow, allows the water to pull' or to he sucked ni) as by a sponge. The mass being porous pre- ptstlie lish from becoming musty. JUit the coming methods of pro- (tniig bait are what are called the «lry air process and the hard freezing loess. Ill the drj' air process you have your ice iu large solid cakes jtlie iippi'r part of the refrigerator and your substance to be preserved [tlie bottom. By a particular mo(h' of adjusting the coimection be- IfHitlie upper chamber and the lower there is a constant uirculatioii jwliy means of which all the moisture of the air is continually being M . ■',«** ..■■ ■' m':, \. ...Mi -.--M^" 2804 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. condensed on the ice, leaving that which envelops the bait or fisln,^,. fectly dry. Fish or any other animal substance will keep almost m\^i nitelv in perfe<;tly dry air about 40^ or 45°, which can be attaiiifd viiy readily by means of this dry air apparatus. I had an instance of that in the case of a refrigerator filled Mith jieaches, grapes, salmon, a leg of mutton, and some beefsteaks, with a great variety of other siilistaiues, At the end of four mouths in midsummer, in the Agricultural liuililin , these were in a perfectly sound and prepossessing condition. l>oone would have hesitated one moment to eat the beefsteaks, and one iniwiit be very glad of the chance at times to have it cooked. This refrigera tor has been used between Sau Francisco and New York, and between Chicago and New York, where the trip has occupied a week or ten davs. and they are now used on a very large scale, tons upon tons of gia|Vs i and pears being sent from Sau Francisco by this means. 1 had a carjio I of fish eggs brought from California to Chicago in a perfect coiulitiuii. A nother method is the hard frozen process. You use a freezing mixture I of salt and ice powdered flue, this mixture producing a tem|)ei attire of twenty degrees above zero, which can be kept up just as long as tin: | occasion requires by keeping up the supi)ly of ice and salt. Q. How big is the refrigerator 1 — A. There is no limit to the size that! n)ay be used. They are made of erjormous size for the purpose of jirti serving salmon, and in New York they keep all kinds of lish. J havei been in and seen a cord of codfish, a cord of salmon, a cord of S|mu] ish mackerel, and other fish i)iled up just like cord-wood, dry, har(l,aiij| firm, and retaining its qualities for an indefinite time. Q. Well, can fish or animals be kept for an unlimited period if frozen! in that way? — A. Y'ou may |^eep fish or animals hard dried tiozeiifurj a thousaikd years or ten thousand years perfectly well, and be assurdf there will be no change. Q. Have geologists or paleontologists satisfied themselves of tbatl actual cases of the preservatiou of animal substances for a long period J- A. Yes; we have perfectly satisfactory evidence of that. About i years ago the carcass of a mammoth, frozen, was washed out fromtliij gravel of the river Lena, I think, one of the rivers of Siberia, ami wai in such perfect preservation that the flesh was served as food for tlid dogs of the natives for over six months. Mr. Adams, a St. Petersbur| merchant, came along on a trading expedition, and found it nearly cool sunied, and bought what was left of it for the St. Petersburg Academj of Science — the skeleton and some portion of flesh — which were pn served first in salt and afterward in alcohol. Well, we know the perio of time that must have elapsed since the mammoth lived in thearct| circle must be very long. We know we can talk with perfect safety ( ten thousand years. The geological estimate of it is anywhere fio< fifty to a hundred thousand years ; we cannot tell. There 's uo uuit( measure; we know it must have been some hundreds of thousands, an probably it would have remained in the same condition asuinchlou|,'e| Q. Now, to come to a practical question, is this a mere matter i theory or of possible use ? For instance, could this method be adi to the preservation of bait for three or four months if necessary !-J The only question, of course, is as to the expense. There is no questiij at all that bait of any kind can be kept indefinitely by that process. do not think there would be the slightest difficulty in building a refr3 erator on any ordinary fishing- vessel, cod or halibut, or other tisbij vessel, that should keep with perfect ease all the bait necessary foa long voyage. I have made some inquiries as to the amount of ice.aj 1 am informed by Mr. Blackford, of New York, who is one of thelargf AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2805 operators of this modo, thai to keep a room ten feet each w ay, or n tlmiisand ciibic feet, at a temperature of 20'^ above zero, wouhl require iboiit 2,000 pomuls of ice and two bushels of salt per week. With that be thinks it could be done without any dilHculty. VA'ell, an ordinary vessel would require about seventytive barrels of bait — an ordinary iraivlinfj-vessel. That would occupy a bulk something less than (500 fe|it so tliat probablj' four and a half tons of ice a month would keep thiitfisli. And it must be remembered that his estimate was for keei>- jnctisli ill nndsuraraer in New York. The fishing- vessels would require aiiimller expenditure of ice, as these vessels would be surrounded by a colder temperature. A stock of ten to twenty tons would in all i)roba- bility be aniply sufficient both to replace the waste by melting and to preserve the bait. Q. Have you any doubt that some method like that will be put into immediate and successful use, if there is sufficient call for it? — A. I liiive 110 doubt the experiment will be tried within a twelvemonth. An- otber luctliod of preserving is by drying. Squid, for instance, and cluiis. and a great many other kinds of bait can be dried without using aiiv ai)preciable chemical, and can be readily softened in water. I no- iiiced lately in a Newfoundland jiaper a paragraph recommending that, jinview of the fact that the squid are found there for a limited period of jtiuie, tbe iieople should go into the industry of drying squid for bait, Isrttliiitit would always be available for the purpose of cod fishing. I the suggestion is an excellent one, and I have no doubt it will be Icariied out. Q, Now, what is the supply of bait for codfish on the American coast ? I-A. Well, as the codfish eats everything, there is a pretty abundant Istwk to call upon. Of course, the bait fish are abundant, the menhaden land herring. The only bait fish that is not found is the capliu. The lliermi},' is very abundant on the American coast, and the alewives enor- luionsly abundant. Squid are very abundant of two or three species, laud, of course, clams of various kinds. Then we have one shell-flsh Itliatwe possess. It is never used here, although it is very abundant; Intitis almost exclusively the bait for trawling on tue coast of Great Britain. This shell-fish is known as the whelp, or winkle. Q. Is it a kind of mussel ? — A. No; it is a kind of univalve shell binits specimen), and is almost ex(!lusively used for the capture of I in England on deep-water trawl-liners.. It is not used here at all. Q, Why is it not used here? — A. I don't know except that they have jitiierbait that they get at more readily, and they have not learned how p use this. Q. But it is very abundant ? — A. Yes ; quite as abundant as it is any- where. This is a rather small specimen. The advantage of this kind is that it can be kept alive for a long time merely by moistening romiilj| more particularly. Well, in the lirst ])lace more of it can be used iiott.j In the i)rocess of hard freeziug applied to cod it is brought in more asaj fresh lish. But a large proportion of what is thrown overboard can be] utilizi'd. It can all be utilized, and it would be very projter, 1 think, to impose seme penalty upon the waste of the gurry by throwing it ovirJ board, in favor of securing its preservation and utilization. But of course the question is as to what inlluence the gurry can exercise iipoa the sea lishery supposing it to be abundant and to be thrown ovtr| board. I have no practical experience iu regard to that. I know great many persons testify that it is very objectionable. The reason why I should be incliued to attribute very little importance to the ol> jection is the readiness with which all such oll'al is consumed in thesed by the scavengers appointed by nature to destroy it. In the nortlnrJ seas, where codtish are most jibuudaut and this gurry is in the greattsj abundance, the waters abound with couutless numbers of minute cinjf taceans whose business it is to destroy animal matter. The socii sea tleas are so active that if you take a lish the size of a codtisiiiiin put it in a bag of net-work and put it overboard where it will bo expose! for a tide iu water, of anywhere from five to ten or twenty fathoms, yoj will find, as a general rule, that uext day you will have the bones \M clean and a perfect skeleton without a single particle of tiesh. I bad thousands of skeletons (I may say literally so) of fishes and bin and small quadrupeds jjrepared for museum purpo.ses b.v siniplv ex|i()| ing them to the action of the sea fleas. 1 have put them in baj;s [m'! rated with holes aud lett them at the edge of low tide fo!' a tide or twl aiul the skeleton would be perfectly complete without a bit ot meat Iff Q. Well, these sea scavengers, are they usually at the bottom '-j Everywhere, at the bottom and the top. Then there are the dofitisli.ts small sharks, catfish, goosefish, sculpins, and the codfish theinselv(s,j variety of lobsters, and other inhabitants of the sea, that are at «or| always leady and eager to seize anything of this kind and eonsiniiel Then when the bones are exposed there are the sea-urchins, tiiat lUiij AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2807 jiiijH't'iiili.v of (l('voiirin,;jf tlieui. Now, I cannot saj' bnf that this niato- riiil, iiii(l<>c in the crevices of the rocks iiiid leiiiain there and become an ottense to the surrouinliiig lis:;, lint I I'litlier suspect tliat the trouble about the gurry is that it attracts (lie |iioilatory lisli. Wliere it is thrown overboard it tolls tliem from a loi)f (lisriuice. The (h)gtish, tlie shark, and otiier fisli are .attracted and coint' to tlie i)lace where this oll'al lias been thrown overboard, and niU-v tlii\ have consumed all that they turn their attention to the cod and otlieitisli that maj be there and drive them otf. (J. So tliat even throwing overboard the gurry tliere is a (hmger of (Ick'iitiiiu your own i>uri)ose ? — A. Yes; certairdy. That is the hypoth- fsissivcii as to the supposed evil effect of throwing overboard the oll'al in till' KiiroiM'an waiers. It i)revents the fishing thejc as long as this state ot tliiiiil'^ lasts, but whether th(>re is an acitual injury otherwise I cannot siy. Tilt' general i)resumption is against the idea that these substances Oiiii have a lodguient for any le?igth of time to produce any offense. It iijlit do it in fresh water. In the lakes you may have sucii a condition wlifiv tliose scavengers are not provided. 15ut it hardly seems to uie itliiit it can he in the seas, in the northern seas especially. (^), What is the geographical distribution of mackerel? — A. The iiiacki'icl is a fish that has not so northerly a distribution as tlie [coil, and perhaps extends somewhat further south; otherwise it is 1111(1 over, to a very considerable extent, tlie same range. It is found jasfai'soiirii as the Azores in Euro[>ean waters, and as far as Spitzber- jieiiiiiKl Norway to the north. On our soutliern coast we find it verj' niit'Iy,aiHl very few individual specimeirs have been taken in the vicinity iifciiark'ston. It has never been taken in the West Indies; never in Btniiiiila, I believe; but it is found as far north as the Straits of IJelle jlslf, and how much further north I cannot say. The two species lAiuericaii and European) are believed to be identical, and although licy are constantly within a comparatively small number of leagues of leacii otiicr, yet they do occur all the way across. Q. Wliat is the season for mai;kerel ? — A. In America the mackerel l^iisoii is in spring, summer, and autumn. In winter they are not found I oar coast, and we don't get them, but we have them on our shores as |eaily as tlic middle of April and as late as November. i}. Now, as to the variation of seasons. What do you say about that ? I-A. It is very rarely they appear in the same abundance in two succes- Ime years, or, at least, it is rarely that the sum total of the experience lot' the lisliermen gives about the same aggregate. Sometimes they are ISO scarce that the actual catch of one year will be much below that of lotlitT years, but we (cannot say there are any fewer tish actually in the rater. It may be that they take a different line; tliey may keep in dif- Bcri'iit waters; they may show themselves less to lishermen ; and may \ue otlier modes of variation ; but we only know by the practical re- fciiltsof lisliing that the catch in some seasons is much greater than in lotlicrs. Q. What do you thiidc is known or what do you thiidf is the best iiijectnie as to their migrations :' — A. There have been a great many fiypotheses on the sul)ject of the migration of mackerel. At one time Biipkerel, as was supposed to be the case with cod and sea-herring, was iflu'ved to have an extreme range, that a large school traversed the coast If America or Europe, and swept over a range of thousands of miles, Jakiii"' a circuit that occupied one year in its completion. But the evi- |f lice at the present time tends to show that the macikerel comes in on 111*? Aiiuricau coast as a great army, broadside, and appears within a :'t i^m i >' I! F m .1 2808 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. reasonable length of time, or verj* nearly the same tune, on all that ex. tent of coast. Q. Do yon think it strikes the eoast a little later to the lunfh and , little earlier to (he south ? — A. The left winn of the army, as we ii,i„||[ call it, strikes the American coast first, ami the riyht winjj strikes tln' Bay of St. Lawrence last ; but it en to be, inshore or offsliore, and it floats just under till' same condition that the egg of the cod does. It has a small globule ol oil as a buoy, and it floats on the surface or anywhere from that to half w down, or, perhai)s, almost to the bottom, depending on the gravity i of tlie ♦'Sfl and the specific gravity of the water. Q. Is tiie mackerel supposed to be able to control the time when it j fill spawn ? — A. When the egg is ripe it has to be discharged, what- I ever happens. The egg cannot be retained after it is overi'ipe. (}. How do the eggs of each mackerel compare in numbers with hlioseof the cod? — A. The average of the mackerel spawn is about oiKi,(MiO. Tliey are very small, as you can imagine, for mackerel is not a very large tish. The eggs, when spawned, are only about one-tiftieth ofiiuinch in diameter, about half the size of that of the cod. They Ivarv ill size, some being smaller and others larger, but they only vary Ivitbiii moderate limits. il You say they spawned all along the American coast ? — A. I pre- Jsiiiiie tbey spawn in some numbers along the entire coast from the shore lof Virginia to the coast of Labrador ; formerly they spawned on the coast jrf Newfoundland, when mackerel were caught there, where thej' were rery abundant a great many years ago, and also otf the Bay of Fundy, Ifhen mackerel were abundant there. Q. What is the food of the young mackerel ? — A. The young mackerel, lie the young of most other fish, feed on diatoms and other marine plants lof low origin. They feed on the eggs of crabs and marine animals, [probably on the small eggs of tish themselves, and as they grow they pt anything small enough to be swallowed. They don't bite as blueflsh fo, but they take everything at one mouthful and" swallow it whole. (}. And what is the food of the adult flsh ?— A. The adult fish feed Nry largely upon young flsh, sand lantz and young herring, and prob- pblynpou the young of their own kind. They are cannibals, as all fish ire, They feed very largely upon what is called hay seed or cayenne; that M minute kind of shrimp, which is so diminutive you require a micro- ^pe to separate it into its component parts. They feed also ou large *nnips and on the young of large crabs. Its favorite food in summer »nbat tishermen have described as all eyes, that is, young tish which, 1 far as I can judge, must be young mackerel, because I do not know i? ^*i'-£C ^';^,Ji^ r. . "-•.itf^^" .jNi -'-•? i\ 1 " 1^ ''^ ^ r**- €:^^ :K(. 2810 AWARD OF THE FlSllEllY COMMISSION. *>■■< Auy otluT fisli tliat could be so iiluiiidaiit of that size at tliat season of the vviir. It is called all eyes, because its body is peilectly tiaiispiiicnt, aud when you see theui swiniiuin^ in the sunlight you can oiilv sfc two eyes, as two small, «lark specks. That occurs in almost iiicnMiiblcaliiiii- dance, covering miles s(juare, and I'urnishing Ibod tor an enoiinou.s vieM ul" fish. il- With rcfiard to its bearing upon the locations of mackerel. I win a-^k whetiicr tlicre is any particular place wiiere the Ibod of uiaelveiel is to be found, or whether it is all along the coast where the iinckfrci come ? — A. The shrimp belongs to a class of crustaceans wliicli inliiiliit the high seas every where. We took them this year in great lu'i'iiiaii\s theoiy, which 1 know nothing .llKtIlt. (), W itii irgard to the prepaiation of mackerel, what have you to siiv?— A. Nothing, except that they are u.se«l in increasing numbers lii'sli. Tlie priiu;ipal consumption in Enri)[)e is in fresh llsh. The peo- pit' tln'if do not salt lish, or scaniely at all. They are put up in Europe, .,11(1 1 hfiieve, to some extent, in Canada in cans; 1 do not think that is (loiie in the L-nited States, (). or course, you have obtained inforntation as to tin* manner in wliidi tilt' lish can be used by consumers; you have nothing to do witli tilt' mercantile side of the question ?— A. Ko. Q, Von have had it presented to you. Do you And that the demand forlit'sii lish of all kinds is iin-reasing ? — A. I know the tendency at the present day is to substitute fresh fisii tor salt, in view of the improved iiiptliiuls (»r lueparation and preservation, and the improved nu'ans of cuiuiiinnication, railroads and steamboats coming to the shores and car- iviiij; awiiy the lish and distributing it over an extent of thousands of niik'saiiil more in the interior, it bringing a much better price as fresh lisli, and yielding a much better profit to the seller. (^». Is tiiat trade rapidly iiicreasiug ? — A. It is iiuTcaslng with enor- mous iii|iHiity. Every year witnesses a great extension of the methods iiml iiicri'iised improvements in the mode of preparation and the size of till' retVi<;erators and their number. {}. In regard to herring, what have you to say ? — A. Herring is a fish ufwiilc niiige. Though 1 cannot say it goes further north than cod — lifiliaps ir does not — it goes scarcely as far south on the Ameri(!an eiiast. I have not found any evidence of it being taken south of IJIock [.slaiiil. It is very abundant ott" J31ock Island and Narragausett Bay in wiiitiT, biit whether it is found further south I am unable to say ; it is tdiiiid as iar north as Labrador, and much further. i). It is found from Block Island lo the shores of Labrador in great aliinidance '/ — A. Yes. Q. It is pretty fairlj' distributed all along! — A. Yes; in some locali- tie.stliey are found in greater abundance at some pt'riods of the year; but there is no part of the American coast, from Labrador to Block slaiid, where they are not found during a certain number of months. il Wliut are the movements of this lish .' — A. They presrei)ared in large (juantities, with the exception of the Southern mullet. Q. JIow far north is mullet found ? — A. It straggles as far as Capo Cod ; it is quite abundant at some seasons on the south sidi^ of New England, but not sufficiently so for marketable pur[)oses, l)nt oil the coast of Virginia, and off the Carolinas, and all the way down to the extremity of Florida, the mullet is in quantities scarcely credible, They are taken find sold in great numbers; many thousands of banvls are put up, and if there was any speedy call for them they could he furnished. I presume I am safe in saying that one million bairels of mullet could be furnished annually from the south shore of Chesapeake Bay to the south end of Florida, if they were called for. Q. How far has the mullet come into the market now ? — A. The miil let does not come into the Northern market at all, but in North Carolina. South Carolina, and Georgia it fills the markets at the present time, excluding other kinds of imported fish. In former years there was a great demand for herring and mackerel, but the mullet is supplying the markets because they are sold fresher and supplied at mucli lower prioe, and they are considered by the Southern people a much superior article of food. Q. Is it preferred to mackerel as a salted fish ? — A. The persons familiar with mackerel and with mullet from whom I have made in- quiries— I never tasted salt mullet — give the preference to mullet. It is a fatter, sweeter, and better fish, and of rather larger size. They grade up to 90 to a barrel of 200 pounds, and go down to three-quarters of a pound, and as a salt fish the preference is given by all from whom I have inquired to the mullet. Q. Do you think the failure of the mackerel market in the SoutberD j and Southwestern States is largely attributable to the introduction of mullet ? — A. I cannot say that, but I imagine it must have a very de- cided influence. Q. Can the mullet be caught as easily as mackerel ! — A. More easily, j It is entirely a shore fish, and is taken with seines hauled upou the banks by men who have no capital, but who are able to command a row- J boat with which to lay out their seines, and they sometimes catch 1' ' barrels a day per man, and sometimes as many as 500 barrels have beeaj AWARD OF THE Fl.SlIERY COMMl.SSION. 2813 taken al a singh^ liaii). The capital invonted is only the boat, the seine, iK'rliaps 100 or lidO yards lonu, the salt necessary for preserving the llsh, iiud si>littin}f boards and barrels. {}. Call ponnds be nsed ? — X. They have not been used, and I doubt wbellicr they could be used. Pounds are not available in the sandy re$;ioi)s of the South. Q. Tlu'y are taken by seining? — A. Yes, seines can be used. Thia ffoilv isi'Mtirely prosecuted by natives of the coast, and about two-thirds ui tlifi coast population are employed in tlie capture of these tish. {}, Then the business has grown very much ? — A. It has grown very ruimll.v. Q. When was it first known to you as a fish for the market ? — A. 1 never knew anything about it until 1872. (^. TIh'm it has been known during only five years ? — A. I cannot say; it lias been known to me that length of time. Q. During that time the business has very much increased ? — A. I am so informed; I cannot speak personally. All my informaticHi of it is from rei)orts made to me in replies to circulars issued in 1872 and 1873. 1 bave not issued a mullet circular since that time, when I issued a s|iccial circular asking information regarding the mullet. Q. Then it is your opinion that the mullet has become, to some extent, aiidffill become, an important source of food supply ? — A. It is destined, 1 suppose, to be a very formidable rival and competitor of the nmckerel. 1 know in 1872 a single county in North Carolina put up 70,000 barrels ut mullet, a single county of five States covering the mullet region. Q. Ki'peat that statement. — A. I say 70,000 barrels of mullet were packed in Carteret County, North Carolina, in 1872 — one county in the States of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, where mullet occurs in great abundance during two or three months of the year. It is during the spawning season of the mullet that it is taken in this quantity, and mullet roes form a special delicacy over which every Southerner exults. It is a separate business, the roes being smoked and salted and sold in large (juantities. Q. Perhaps a reason — to get into the region of political economy — why mullet fishing was not prosecuted formerly, was that the Southern people were not fishing-people under the slave system ? — A. They probably had not a proper methotl of taking them. They used more casting nets than seines. Q. State to the Commission what mode of fishing and what kinds of fisli are caught on the south of the New England coast, south of Cape led. Is it not a great region for fish ? — A. The variety of fish taken on the shores south of Cape Cod is very great, and constitutes a very im- portant element in the food resources of the country. Many of them arelisL of very great value as food, some selling as high as one dollar iw pound, every pound of that fish that can be brought into market liringing never less than GO cents, and up to one dollar per pound. Other tish range from 20 cents, 35 cents, and -10 cents per pound. Others I from 20 cents to 25 cents, very few bringing less than 8 cents and 10 j cents a pound as fresh fish. Q. What kinds of fish are they which bring the high pri(!e of a dollar I a pound ? — A. The pompano, which is the highest-priced fish. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. To what size does it grow ! — A. Three pounds is the maximum. It is more generally one pound. The pompano brings one dollar per Ipoimd when it is Ireshly caught. Sometimes when it is brought to j:-m 'rm 2814 AWARD OP TlIK FISHKRY COMMISSIOX. New York ami kept for ii loiij; time the pricjo mny coriio down, i i^i,,,^ one oiicasion when it was sold at lOiu'iits a pound ; but tlie lisli w.is not niarkutablo and should not have been sold. Tliu next b«->( ti.^|, ,^ Spanish niactkeri'l, a iisii of reniarkable excclie'ici'. IJy Mr. Dana : (). In >\*\v York market at the proper season what does it !iiiii. The scup is found in {,'reat abundance oft" the south e.);isi ut'MnsM- chusetts ami Khode Islaml / — A. Y»'s. There is also sea bass, whieli l^ one of the linest of the American lish, and is worth from LS cents [uSi cents per pound. (}. How many pounds do they average in weight .' — A. l-roni mvu four pounds; three |)ounds is a large tish. (}. They are fouml in abundance on the south coast of New |]ii:,'Inii(i.' — A. Yes; very abundant. There is also the kiugtish and tin' boiiiti, which is a very important lish. i). There is a (ish of that character extemling from lilock Island awav down to Cape llatteras ;' — A, It is one of the same family. Ir wci:;!^ up to live pounds. I have seeti live thousand of ti»ose lisii taken iit ,i single time in a lisliing-])ound at Menemsha Uight. There is the lilne tish, which is the piroe dc resishtuvc. There is the squeteaguf : ot tiiit iish I have seen L'.">,000 ponnils taken at a haul. <). The bluetish is a great lish in the market ? — A. It is the |triiiii. pal fresh lish during the summer season on the coast ot the Liiitol States from Cape Cod to North Caroliiui. (}. Caught all along the shores ' — A. All along the coast, ln'in^r most I abundant in the summer season toward Cape Cod, and in wuiteiiuj North «L'arolina. Q. There is a great drift through Vineyard Sound? — A. There is a I numerous catch. {}. Are not the people on the southern coast of 3[assachusetts, and on I the coast of Jihode Island, now very much engaged in catehinj; fVcslij tish ? — A. Very largely, taking them in pounds and gill nets, and othirj modes of capture. Q. Is this a part of the development of the fresh lish market .'—A.l Yes. Since bluetish has come back to the coast it has constituted uni enormous element in the supply of fresh fish ; it is not the controlliiiuj element, but it is the largest single element, although combining tbe striped bass, squeteagne, mullet, and scup, they considerably outnumbe^ the bluetish. (Photographs of the tish referred to were exhibited.) Q. What about tautog ? — A. It is an important tish, but is not insiicii immense abundau(!e. While you talk of tautog being caught intbmij sands of pounds, you talk of others by hundreds of thousands orbj^ millions. Q. Pounds are very common on the American coast? — A. It constitiitei the principal mode of summer fishing from round Cape Cod as far westal Long Island. Nearly all the tish taken on that coast are caught iu tlij pounds. The small tunny is a fish which of late years has come iutj notice, and it is believed to have disturbed the mackerel and uieuhadei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2815 (lijiiyenr. It was never reoordoil till I found it in 1.H71 in IMartlni'H Vino- viirii. wilt re it was in enormous uuiiiIkts. It is a (Isli wei;,'liin or 1,(M)0 of tlieuj are taken nasin^'li' ni;;ht in one of the pounds, hut the people make no use of them iiiilfdiisiilcr them valueless. They sell the tish weinhiiiy: *-*.') poumls for jjet'iits. It is ft coarse fish and very dark meat, hut still it is a food fiMiiU'iH' when other lish aro not taken. These fish are Ibuml in the Mfiliteniineiin, where they ai'«' very nineh looked alter and ininy; v«'ry ',H»il l>i let's, they heiuf; specially snltetl ami put up in oil. The AnuM'i- I'lii tiMMiy is undistin^^uishaltle frt)m the Eurt>pean, thou;;li eHorts have licMi math' to separate them. 0. The pounn which I think will retpiire a lt)n<(er perittd of years than wcliiive hiiil ftn- its detinito (ii[i iiiul siiueteasne has loiifj bi'en estaitlished — that when bluelish jK>;il)niitish dindn- ]i\\ (lie other lish become enornn>us|y ctunmon. The st|Melea<;ue in IxiL' was unknown as a lish east of the waters of New .jerst-y except HI small Miunbers, and was not found in Martha's \'ineyard or IJu/./ard's iB.iv. In 1S7L*, ten years subsetpu'utly, so plentiful were they that I jkiiiiw iiiyself ot .>,<>()() tish bein^ taken at a sinjjle haid, avera.uin}; live lids each lish. The bluelish then be;;aii to diminish, and from that liiiiiLMvtre much less abundant than in ISoOor 18(1(1. Those pounds and lilit' Mut'lish to^i'ther I conslderetl prtxiuced the decrease in the abuu- liiicp of scup, sea bass, and tautojf that hns been so much complained 10!, 1 mjjetl very strongly, and I still maintain my view, on the le;;isla- hiiRs ot .Massachusetts and lihode Island the proi)riety of exercisiiifj Umit' sort of restriction upon the indiscriminate use t,tl)!isliiMl as a close time tluring which thosi^ lish should not be taken livaiiy tif those devices, thus giving the lish a chance to get into the liiwiijiig grounds inshore, thereby securing their perpetuity. 1 was (piite satistied in my own mind that unless something of this Ikiiid was done, verj' serious results would happen. Very much to my Idisgust, I nuist alu wlir) vMk\^ them, eitlier for nuirket or for Hport. Q. Can you remember the time when there was no blucllsh (»ii the American coast? — A. I cannot. 1 know we have the roeonl oftlic fmt, and I know many persons who can remember it. Klueflsh wan alistnt from the American coast for sixty years, during which time there was not a single bluellsh to bo found on the coast. Q. You think the pounds should be dealt with as a matter for ro;;u liition and not for banishment? — A. I don't think the market would be amply supplied without them, and I don't think it would Ix* expedknt to prohibit them. I think a certain amount of regulation, siicli as 1 have recommended, would bo a great deal better for the tisli and the lishermeu. The disadvantage of the pounds is that they glut tbc mar ket at times, so that there is no sale for the fish and fish are wasttMl, and by the adoption of a close time not only will it secure proper spawn ing of the fish, but also equalize consumption. Xo. (»y. William J. Mass, of Chester, Nova Scotia, master mariner and fl>li «rman, called on behalf of the Government of the United Stal's. By Mr. Foster : (Question. You are 27 years of age, I believe? — Answer. Yes. Q. Anil you were born at Chester, Nova Scotia? — A. Yes. Q. Your wife is residing at Dartmouth? — A. Yes. Q. You commaud the schooner Orinoco, sailing out of Gloucester !-| A. Yes. Q. And you are a naturalized citizen of the United States?— A. Yesj Q. To whom does the schooner belong ? — A. John Pew. Q. Where have you been fishing this summer? — A. 1 have been fish-j ing in Bay St. Lawrence the latter part of the summer. Q. About what time did you go into the bay ? — A. About 20th Auj gust, I believe. Q. When did you leave there? — A. Last Monday. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you take in that time?— A.| About lUO barrels. Q. Sea barrels? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you catch them ? — A. At different places; some mM Magdalen Islands, Prince Edward Island, and Point Miscou — all rouml- scattered . Q. When you went fishing to the bend of the island, bow far from the shore did you get your fish ? — A. As near as I could tell we wti^ outside of the limits ; that is to the best of my knowledge, but we ili^ not measure. I should think we were outside of the three miles. Q. You have tried in and out ? — A. Y'es. Q. You say you have got about 100 sea barrels ; how have the schooa ers done that you have heard of? — A. The others have done very littld Some vessels which were in at the first part of the season got some miicii erel, but I don't believe they will average 100 barrels all through, earlj and late. Q. If you can remember any particular schooners, and the quantitii they caught, name them.— A. The William 8. Baker had about 10 baj AWARD OP THE FI81IEUY COMMISSION. 2817 f^ls, I bt'lieve hIiu liatl \wen to the bay live weeks, but I (!oiil«l not tell fXlK'tl.V- (1. W'lien' is slie from; — A. Slie lieloiiffs to (iloiicester ; lict- niptaiii isCiiptiiiii rit'ice. (.1. Any otlitTS? — A. (Jiipt. John Collins, in fleleli M. Crosby, Inul liiiiitm-ls. lie had liccn there i|nite a month; I heard six weeks. He fffiit iHimt' to (iloncestrr. Capt. .vou f — A. Well, so far as Iffiv kiio\vli*tl}i;e an I infornuiticm extend, it has been a failure this year — lit' last two years. By Mr. Davies: {}. Wliat is the name of your vessel ? — A. The Orinoco. (,i. WluMi -l 2818 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. :lf; il Q. Which was your main flshingground — Prince Edward Isljind*- A. Yes. Q. Is that the main fishing-ground of the iieet this suinnier .'—a, I could not tell you that. There are lots of vessels in during tlie whoii. year ; they had tried in other places, but most mackerel had been "ot at Magdalen Ishinds. Q. Kame one vessel that has got mackerel at Magdalen Islands ?~a. The Rambler, Captain K. Johnson, 200 barrels; he is higli-Iincr. Q. Where did you see him ? — A. At Georgetown, two wci'ks ago. Q. What was he doing there ? — A. He was there for a iiai bor. Q. Not there fishing? — A. He had come across from Magdalen Islands, having run short of outfit, and had to go to Canso to tit out. Q. How far is it from Georgetown to Magdalen IsIand.s~over KK) miles ?— A. About 140. Q. Could he not be running to Georgetown to fit, after tisiiingat Magdalen Islands ? — A. I can tell you how he came to be there. He came from the Magdalen Islands, and was going to Canso to retit, and on the way, there came on a breeze of wind, an«l ho went to George town ; he will go back to the Magdalens. Q. He got 200 barrels ?— A. Yes ; about 200 barrels. Q. You think he got them about the Magdalens U — A. Yes ; and Bird Eocks. Q. When you were fishing, how many vessels were about Prince Edward Island ? Tell me where you were fishing ? — A. We tried up and down. We did not get a great many at the island. We got some mackerel at Port Hood — a few mackerel. Q. Did you not tell me that Prin(!e Edward Island was your main fishing-ground ? — A. We were there most of the time, but we did not get the most mackerel there. Q. Where did you get most of your mackerel, if not at Prince Edward j Island, Magdalen Islands, or Port Hood ? — A. We did not get a great ; many anywhere. We got most of our mackerel oif Port Hood. Q. The first time you tried, you got none ? — A. We went back after wards. Q. When fishing off Prince Edward Island, did you fish inucboffj East Point 'i — A. We fished some there. Q. You do not profess to say that you did not catch fisli within the I limits there? — A. I profess to say we did not catch many. I don't say | we did not catch any, but that the number was very small. Q. Are you prepared to say how many ; or did you pay any attention i to it? — A. No; it is pretty hard to tell exactly. Q. You did not pay any attention to it? — A. No. I think we didnot] catch iny worth speaking of, Q. Did you pay any particular attention to the three-mile limit?— .V.j A nmn who has business on hand knows where he has done best, andj calculates on going there again. If he does well at one place he ahvaysj bears it in mind to go there again. Q. Did you pay any particular attention to how far you were froinj land when you caught your fish ? — A. I took notice always when wa tried for mackerel, we tried for mac^kerel inshore and then out. Q. You went wherever you thought you could find mackerel .'-ij Yes. Q. This year you went in and out irrespective of the limit?— A. Yesj Q. Did you see boats fishing much there ?— A. We saw some boatf out in the bend of the island ; a good many mackerel boats were tber^ We did not try much there. We went more round the Chapels. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2819 Q. That is where you fished chiefly ? — A. We were round there at (lift'erent times, but we did not get many of our maciierel there. Some vessels got maciierel there. Q. You not mackerel oft' Port Hood I — A. Yes ; a good part of thera. Q. You do not wish the Commission to understand that the low catcher of vessels you have named are average catclies ? — A. 1 gave you the iiigliest and the lowest catch. Q, Tliose lire the lowest catches made in the fleet ? — A. They could not well iiave any and have less. il You tio not wish the Commission to understantl that they were aiivtliitis lili**' thti average catch ? — A. I said that, so far as my knowl- edjje troes, tliey would not average over 100 barrels for the whole season. Q. Have you sjsked tiu'- captains of many vessels what their catches havelu'eu? — A. Yes; we always found that out. Q, )Vhat is your own catch ? — A. It is about 100 barrels. Q. Caunot you tell me exactly ? — A. I could not tell you exactly; it is allowed to l)e about 100 barrels. Q. Do you know what the catch of the Greyhound was? She is re- ported to nie as having caught 230 barrels. Is that correct ? — A. What Ilieiinl was that she had 170. Q. Did you hear that from the captaiu himself ? — A. I never spoke witliliiin. Q. \Vlu'n did you hear that ? — A. Two weeks ago. Q. She might have caught up to that number after that ? — A. No. Q. Did yon hear it from the captain himself? — A. I did not speak [with the captain himself, but with the other men. Q. Your information, then, is third hand ? — A. I did not get it from [Mm, but I got it pretty straight. Q. Do you know what the Moses Adams got ? — A. I could not tell ex- [actly. The captain was on board of my vessel, but I never inquired. Q. He is reported to have got 270 barrels ? — A. I guess you will have I to talie a good many ott" that. Q. What did they tell you the Moses Adams had got ? — A. One huu- [dredaiid seventy liarrels. Q. When was that? — A. Just before he went home. He went home jtwo or three days after 1 hat, so I was told. I know he did not catch laiiy. 1 know that from a vessel which spoke with him as he was going lOiiR', and he was bearing up for the Strait of Canso. Q. Do you know when he got to Canso? — A. I know pretty nearly. Q. How do you know, if you were not there ? Might he not have ;ot some at Margaree ? — A. The vessel saw him going by Fort Hood; |iliatis away this side of Margaree. Q. Do you know what the E. H. Horton got? — A. I don't know any noie thill what I heard. Q. ^Vllat did you hear? — A. One hundred and sixty barrels. Q. How was it you di«l not give the names of those vessels as being piuoiifr those in the bay ? — A. I could not think of all. Q. Do you know how many the John Gerard, of Newburyport, aiightf— A. I did not talk with her captain, but they said she had 150 parrels. Tiie Old Chad, of Newburyport, with nineteen hands — I know i positively— got 120 barrels. Q. Do you know what the J.J.Clarke got? — A. I don't know ex- Wly. You have got all the best there ; there is not a poor one among Ihein. ^- Do you know what the Cayenne got ? — A. Is she an American tm\ ? i' -'U ,*r- ^^.:ii '■*..; P»*< k 3 j(a psi^" Ji 2820 AWARD OK THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. I presume so. — A. I never saw her ; I don't know a vessel of that name. Q. Do you know wbat the Frederick Geringjr., got? She is reported with 330 barrels. — A. Then they have got a big spurt. Q. You never heard of her ? — A. Yes, I did ; I heard she bad 130 barrels. Q. When did you hear that? — A. I should judge about two weeks aRo. Q. Were all of those vessels in the bay two weeks ago ? — A. I diii not see the vessels, but 1 have talked with the men. Q. flow many vessels were there in the bay when you left ?— A. There were about 35 sail of vessels with us when we went out of Caiiso, Q. How many did you leave when you came away ? — A. I eould not tell. Q. Thirty-five or forty vessels? — A. I should estimate over that, bat that number is of those we saw there. Q. Do you know what the David F. Low got? — A. I could not tell positively ; I have heard reports. Q. How many seasons have you been in the bay ? — A. About seveu- teen seasons. Q. As master ? — A. No. Q. As hand ?— A. As hand, except this last year, when I was iu the bay as master. Q. You must have been fishing in the bay ever since you went into the bay at all? — A. All but two seasons. Q. Where did you fish then ? — A. On the American shore; ou George's, La Have, and Grand Banks, two years; I was master. Q. What years were they? — A. Last year and the year before. Q. During the years you fished in the bay, you fished both inside and outside the limits ? — A. We tried all over. Q. Inside and outside? — A. To the best of ray knowledge we caught most of the mackerel off shore. Q. You think you did ? — A. I am positive of it ; all the largest spurts, I have caught as higii as 130 barrels with hooks off shore. We caught them about nine mile.'i oft' Htitry Island, to the southeast; we got 130 barrels from nine o'clock the afternoon. Q. Have you fished much about Margaree? round Margaree. Q. I believe in the fall nearly all the vessels fish there ?— A. They used to do so years ago; these last years there does not seem to have been anything round there. Q. What years do you s[)eak of? — A. This year and last year. .Mv brother was down in the bay last year, and he told me about it then. Q. This year you did not fish about Margaree much ? — A. We tried there, but did not take more than half a barrel. Q. That is known as one of the best fishing grounds in the fall !— A, It used to be counted the best. Q. Up to the last two years ? — A. It was when I was in the bay ; that is, in the fall. Q. Most of the fleet went to fish there in the fall ?— A. There ffasii| large part which did not fisli there. I used to be in Nova Scotia ves sels, and during the largest part of that time we saw very few Aiuori can vessels. Q. At the time when you catch them inshore it always happens yoiij are in provincial vessels ? — A. It is not that at all. Most of tiie vessels! would not content themselves staying in ; they would go away before! in the morning till half past four o'clock iu| A. Yes ; a great deal I AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2821 tie spurts would come at Margaree and Cheticanip, and we used to stop in. I was with my father, who owned a vessel called the Frank, which sailed for Halifax. We filled up two or three falls around Margaree. Very few American vessels were there. Q. What time was that? — A. We caught 200 barrels, about 5th No- veiuber; I don't judge we were inside the three miles then. By Mr. Foster : Q, How old were you when you first went into the bay ? — A. Eight vears. ' Q. You were with your father ? — A. Yes ; my first trip was in the Frank. Q, When you fish round Margaree late in the autumn, how long do ffiu stay — one week or two? — A. Sometimes one week, sometimes two. Soiuetimos we have to lay there ten or twelve days and cannot get out. Iheii perhaps one or two fine days will come, and we will get some mackerel. Friday, October 19, ls77. The Conference met. The examination of Prof. Spencer F. Baird, called on behalf of the Govi'iameiit of the United States, resumed. By Mr. Dana : Question. There were some matters with regard to herring, in regard to which I did not ask you fully yesterday. Will you state to the Com- mission about the spawning-grounds of herring especially ? I do not I care for anything outside of the American coast. — Answer. The herring spawn along the whole coast of the United States, from the Bay of Fundy to^o Man's Land, which is a small island between Block Island and Martha's Vineyard. 1 have specimens of spawn from almost all the localities between those two points, and I am informed they also si)awn I around Block Island, but I have never seen any evidence myself. Q. But you know as to the fact ? — A. I know it is so from testimony I and reports. Q. Do the eggs of the herring lodge on the bottom '? — A. The herring is almost the one — is, 1 think, the only one — of our important sea ti.sh, the I eggs of which are adherent; that is to say, when discharged, it falls to tlie bottom and adheres to the sea-weed, gravel, and rock. Generally it is scattered, but not unfrequently a great part of the si)awn of the fish will be aggregated into a mass of the size of a walnut or hicicory ;Dut, but more generally they are scattered and attached singly or by I twos and threes to sea-weed. I have here specimens of the eggs in the adherent form, some which I dragged up at the southern end of Grand I Maiian. Q. Are the spawning- grounds extended along the coast all the way? [-A. Yes; all the way. Q. And are very numerous ? — A. There is no reason to suppose there is any part of the coast at which they are wanting. They are specially j abundant about Cutler, in Maine, and about some of the islands off Pe- nobscot Bay, about Cape Elizabeth, Portsmouth, off Newburyport, and 'particularly along the edge ot the coast from north and east of the en- trance of Massachusetts Bay. They also spawn inside of Cape Cod Bay, and all along the south coast of this region to No Man's Land, as I hare already mentioned. The spawning seasun is later and later as you go wsouth. On the coast of the United States the herring spawns ou the fall of the temperature, just as the salmon, cod, and trout do — i./S** iW^*'^ .!#^.r ^*i*«H(y*i^;, ,!-•, (I ---wt r^l 1^* 1" 'Trf- 'mi^:^M .th f ''t^' »,."*£«■ 2822 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. » i unlike the sbad and mackerel, which spawn at a rising temperature The moment the water along our coast gets to a certain degree of tein" pertature, then the lierring is incited to the act of spawning, i iiij„|,^ say in completion of this point that herring spawns in the spring in Bav St. Lawrence and Newfoundland. It spawns in early summer at Graml Manan in July, August, and September. It spawns at the end ot {^en tember in Eastern Maine, and it spawns in October ott' Boston, and does not spawn till November and sometimes December at No Man's Land. Q. Making a ditt'erence of many months ? — A. Yes, a dift'erence of from six to eight months. Q. Descril)e the modes by which herring are caught on the coast of the United States. — A. They are caught principally by weirs, poinids. and gill nets on our coast. They are caught with seines largely in liav St. Lawrence and Newfoundland, but the large, full-grown, spawning herring are usually taken in gill-nets on or near the spawning grouiKf, A very large number are taken on the whole coast ot Maine and in the Bay of Furuly in weirs, but the great body of these are smaller lierrinc, and are not used as fresh fish. Q. How is it with weir fishing? — A. The weir fishing is generally conducted in Maine, and to some extent inside of Cape Cod to the noitli. South of Cape Cod they are more generally taken in pounds, but also j in gill-nets. j Q. How are they taken along the Massachusetts coast ?— A. They are taken, generall.y, in gill-nets in the fall. The regular pounds are usually not down as late as the herring seasou, but in spring large nuai- bers are taken in the pounds. Q. How do you feel sure that this statement about spawning on the i coast is correct ? — A. By actual capture of the fish in the sitawnjng season, and by dredging up their eggs from the bottom with apparatus] we use for such purposes. Q. Is herring a very common fish on the United States coast ?— A, Itj is exceedingly abundant. It is not utilized at all to the extent of the capacity. The herring is not a very favorite fish, it is a cheap fish.aud as there are so many better fish on the coast it is not very marketahlej for food. It is sold in great quantities but at very low prices, ami is] used only by the poorer classes of the community. Of course it is usedf for bait, but as fresh fish it is very seldom seen on the tables of the ndl' to-do people. Q. Is it dried and pickled? — A. They are pickled to some extent,! Some are smoked, a great many are worked up in the form of bloaters,] and in this form it is very much sought after. Q. You have been at the places where the business is carried oiil-j A. I have seen 20 or 30 large boats, of a capacity of perhaps 500 harrelsj or more, filled with herring, lying at the wharf at Boston at one tiiiie.j They are boats probably from 4 to 10 tons. . Q. Market boats ? — A. They are open boats, known as herring boat^J and the coast now is lined with the boats with gill-nets catching liorriug for the fall trade. Q. Have you anything to say about the predaceous fish, such as tb«j shark and dogfish i Do you think they do a great deal of harm to thd food-fish ? — A. They constitute a very important factor in the question of the abundance of fish on our coast. They destroy enormous weight! and quantities of all the useful fish, and in proportion as they increa><« in nnmbers the food-fish diminish and vice versa. They perform m same function as bluefish ; they are constantly in the pursuit of othe^ fish and destroying them. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2823 Q. There is no probability of changing that relation which fish seem to bear to one another! — A. They all have the relation of attack, defense, parsiiit, and flight. Q. But, notwithstanding that, I suppose they belong to what you call the balanct^ of nature ? — A. The balances of nature are such that it is extremely difficult to say what will be the effect on the fisheries of de- straying or multiplying a particular stock of fish. The sharks, for in- staiict'. are destroying great (piautities of food-fish. A new enterprise has just been started, and will be opened in the course of a few weeks, to utilize the sharks, porpoises, ht. Q. To undertake to regulate the relsitions of fish beyond shoal water khere you can fish with nets, seines, and i)ounds, would be in)piacti- cable !— A. It would be very difficult, indeed, and the effect would prob- ably be very trifling. I Q. You spoke yesterday of the fish of the Southern States, the fish- jeries of which in the new order of things are being rather more de- veloped by greater diversity of industry, and so forth ; can you mention 1 <,Ti S'i #: tti ,' . ' '.■ ■; y any other fish that are comin;; into use ? — A. There are a great inanv species, probably not less tiian fltty, all having a definite value as an article of food, and all canght and consumed on the coast, or sent in limited quantities either to the Northern markets or to Cuba, tliat coniii be tsiken into consideration, but perhaps the capture of t!ie fisli tliat takes the rank of fisheries relates more particularly to the mullet, iiiciiliailen striped bass, and bluefish. There is a very extensive fisiiery ot liiu,.. fish ou the southern coast. The bluetish, alter leaviu<; the iioitlicrn waters, spends a certain time on the coast of Virginia and Xoitli ('aio lina, and by the time it gets back there it has attained enor;iit)iis(liin,.|i sions, the fishes being generally from 12 to 15 pounds, at wliicli size they are found only casually and occasionally on the northern coast. It is not at all an uncommon thing for one fisliery of a single i()(!alit\ t(i take 3,00(> bluefish, averaging 12 pounds eacih fish. Q. What do you mean by one fishery? — A. A single station at one particular point, the fishing being controlled l)y one man or tiriii. An enormous number of bluefish are sent late in fall and in early winter to the Northern markets. Q. So that when bluefish leave the New England coast, they do not I disappear altogether from the American coast \ — A. Not at all.' It disl appears some time in February, and where it goes, we cannot tell. Q. It disappears from the southern coast ? — A. Yes. A small .sdii/ol of bluefish' is found all the year south to Florida, but the larjfe .scliool of blue fish usually disappears in February, and, indeed, 1 may .say, \\t\ never see it again. The fish, as they make their a[)pearance in sjininf;, are sniHller fish. Q. Do they first appear on the south coast of New England ?— A. Ouj first appearing on the coast of Carolina and Virginia, tiicy comumii something like the mackerel, only they have a rather more coa.stwise travel, because they ,eneraily weighs from 10 to L'O pounds. There istliecliiiunel l)ass, which can be also taken in any desired (luantities. It is entirely a sea fishj and iscaught in the rapid channel-ways between thesiiorcs aiul islands on the coast. Q. Especially, perhaps, in Soutli Carolina? — A. Only stragj^iers come on the eastern coast, but it is found in enormous abundance trom North Ouoliiia down to the southern extremity of Florida, and in the Gulf of Mexico. Q. Can the fish be sailed for the nnirket '? — A. 1 don't think it has ever been tried; it is worth almost too much as fresh tish. Q, Is the tish called red snapper there? — A. Yes; it is very aluuidant on tlie coast of Florida. It is a large tish, of a Itlood-red color, as red as !;ul(lti.sli, and weighs from five to twenty pounds. It is caught in (Treat munbers in the winter season, and taken alive to Cuba. The Cou- iiectieiit fishermen, alter they have finished their halibut and cod sum- mer and autunm fishing, go down to Flori«la, and spend two or three Dioiitlis catching red snappers and other tish and taking them to Cuba, seliinj: them as fresh (ivsh, alive. It is taken in the wells of vessels, and jssold at very high prices in Havana. Sometimes, on tiie return trip, tiieytaite a load to Xew York, and sell tiiem in that market alive. Q, Id regard topounace of net- p. ■ m 'iitff'-'^ iJhy. n^m-f^ f It ^-^ "til 2826 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ting, held at t)ie corners by anchors. The flsh go along the leaderg and pass into the receptacle. The trap requires constant watchiiif,', or the flsh could go in and out. The moment a school of flsl> enter, the net- ting at the end is raised. They pursue the same mode of uiuptyinr and turn the flsh into the pocket, as with pounds. Q. The ditterence is that in the case of pound, it is not necossary tlut boats should be employed to visit them fmpiently ? — A. [ii stormv weather you sometimes cannot get to a pound for a week. In the case of trapsi they are visited three or four or half a dozen times a day. Q. When the boats offshore see a school of flsh enter the trap, thev follow and take it whether large or small. [Diagram of weir exlhbitedj This weir consists of a small circle of brush or boards, witli two win^rs and a spring. The flsh come into tlie weir at high tide, and as the water falls they are left in a cavity inside the weir, aud are takeu out in (li|,. nets. There are a dozen or twenty different forms of constructing weirs. Q. What is the estimated cost of a pound? — A. $l,()b() will pay for the construction of a very good pound, including the entire equipment, A pound is managed by from two to four men, while a trap itMiuires two boats and about seven men. Q. The trap is more expensive ? — A. About the same cost as tbe pound, because, although it has no stakes, yet it requires to be of verv considerable size and needs anchors. I should presume that the tirst cost of the two would not be very different. Q. And what is the cost of a weir? — A. It is a simple thing. The cost merely represents the lumber and labor. Q. That is a permanent erection ? — A. Yes; the others are all taJieul up; the traps are only kept down six weeks in the year; the poaudsl are down for from two mouths to flve, and at the end of the season they use an apparatus to pull the stakes out of the water, and then pack them | on shore for next season. Q. What are the kinds of flsh taken in the great lakes? — A. There is I a great variety of fish taken there, but the most important fish, as a matter of business, are the whiteflsh, lake herring, lake trout, walleyed | pike, maskalonge, sturgeon, and a variety of others. The most import- ant, however, are whiteflsh, herring, aud trout. Q. What are the methods of taking them? — A. They are takeu veryi largely by pounds, which are constructed on a very large scale, and much more elaborate and expensive than on the coast. They are taken] by gill nets very largely, and by seines under certain circumstances, At a certain time of the year, whiteflsh can be taken i*u great quantities] in seines, and kept in pounds until ready for market. Q. Are those built and constructed to a great extent along both tbe I Canadian and American shores ? — A. I presume they are used iu Canada, I though I cannot say. I know they are on our own coasts. There is quite a number of these pounds worked by Canadians on the American j coast. Q. Have you any statistics respecting the lake fishery for the years! 1876 and 1877 ?— A. I have only partiul statistic for 1877. I publisliedj the statistics in detail in my rejiort for 1872, and I am now havinfj statistics for 1877 collected, and will have them I suppose by the endofj the season. Q. 1872 represents but faintly the present state of things. Can youj tell us how it was in 1872 ? — A. In 1872 the American production of tish| in the great lakes was 32,250,000 pounds. That quantity of fish wasj taken, but how much more I cannot say. Those were marketed atj Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago, and many other stations. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2827 Q, Does that include the Canadian catch ? — A. I presume there is no Canadian catch in that amount. Those are the figures as they were ob- tained by my agents, from the fishermen and dealers. Q. You obtained them from the dealers in the large cities ? — A. Yes^ and the fishermen at the grounds. This year I have had every station 01) tlie American side of the lakes visited and canvassed. {}, You have steady communication with and reports from the deal- ers!—A. I have reports only when I send specially after them, as I did in 1872 and am doing this year. Q. llow far have you got in your inquiry this year ? — A. I have only a jmrtiiil return from Chicago. Q, What does that show 1 — A. The total marketing of salted fish in Cbiciijjo up to the middle of October amounted to 100,000 half-barrels, iritli about -'0,000 half-barrels expected for the rest of the season, or e(|iial to (50,000 barrels of those fish for Chicago alone for the present year. The corresponding sup()ly of barrels of fish in 1872 was 12,000 in Chicago, so that the Chicago trade has increase*! from 12,000 in f 872 to 60,000 in 1877, or almost fivefold — 4 8-10. The total catch of fish in the lakes in 1S72 was 32,250,000 i)ounds. If the total catch has increased in tlie same ratio as that market has done at Chicago, it will give 150,000,000 pounds of fish taken on the American side of the lakes for the present year. Q. That, of course, cannot be a matter of certainty ? — A. No. Q. What other large central markets for lake fish are there besides Chicago?— A. Chicago and Buffalo are the most important. Cleveland taiies a large (luantity, but Chicago and Buffalo control the market. I Detroit takes the fish to some extent, but it is not such a convenient I shipping point. Q. What proportion does that bear to the fish of Canada ? — A. I cau- 1 Dot say. I may say, in regard to this point, that on the same ratio the total product of the salt fish from the lakes in the American market I would be 48,546,000 pounds. Of course, those figures are comparisons, 1 the estimates may be fallacious. Chicago may have a larger share I of the lake trade in proportion, or may have a smaller share; other I places may have crowded on it, or it may have gained on them. Q. You expect to have full returns ? — A. I shall have them probably [ in the course of one month. I have not heard from my agent who is visiting all the Canadian stations and fishing points on the American I coasts, Q. You expect to ascertain the whole catch of the lakes for 1877? — [A. Yes, with great precision. I have here an item which may perhaps be interesting in regard to the price of those fish. The ruling prices of fish on the 15th October, in Chi(!ago, were $7.50 per barrel for white- fish, So.-lO for salmon trout, and $3.75 for lake herring. Those are the prices paid to the captors for the fish by the merchants; that is, before [thev are handled and any profit put upon them. Q. In regard to the increase in the consumption of fish, are any as [beneficial means being adopted in Canada to maintain the supply ? — A. Both Canada and the States bordering on the great lakes have striven verv efiiciently to prevent what would otherwise have been a great danger to the supply of an enormous amount of fish. They are hatch- ing white fish by artificial means to the extent of a great many millions amiuiilly. The two countries are not co-operating but concurring in this business, and probably this year they may introduce as many as 20, 30, I or more millions of young fish into the waters, and that must necessarily ve a very important influence on the maintenance of the fisheries. ■''^^:*'.:;; vr'^sij 2828 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. They have not done anything yet in regard to hike herring, but \v|,i,^ flish, which iH a much more valuabU^ fish, is being earefully guaideti. Q. What States of tlie American Union are engaged in the breiMlinffl ofwhitefish? — A. Oliio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. * Q. What has been the success generally of the tish-hroediiifr ^y^jj, by artificial means? — A. It is now being practiced to siicli an ivxti-nt ij Canada and the United States as to sliow it is a very ellicjoiit iiiiHleof preventing the diminution of fish, and even of increasing the siippiv, ], has passed the region of experiment, and it is a positive fact as slmwn by the large ajipropriations made on both sides of the harder lor this purpose. It commands the respect and (;onsideration of men of all m\. ies, and in our own country, at least, there is no dilliculty in jicttiiii'ait appropriations that can profitably be expended to secure the icsultr I Q. It extends not <>idy to the fish of the great lakes, but to liver fish ? — A. To saluion, shad, striped bass, and alewives. Q. You find as the result that a mucli larger proportion of the (•(;;;< i are turned into fish than when left to natural exposures and daiijjcrsT-l A. Anonlinary estimate in regard to shad is that under natural sjiinvn. ing 995 out of 1,000 eggs perish without producing a young fish aliletol feed for itself, and that you get five young fish which reach the stage of ability to feed for themselves; that is, after their fins are imiperk formed, and the fish is three-eighths of an inch in length. Tliey have then passed the ordinary perils of infancy, and are able to take care df themselves. With artificial spawning, a fish culturist who could m] bring out 950 of 1,000 eggs to that state would be considered as i;;iioiaut| of his business, except some unusual circumstance that coulil uot iiel controlled should come in to interfere. Q. Can you tell the Commission how many traps and pounds there are! in the southern part of New England, ConnecticMit, Rhode Island, aiidl Massachnsetta, at Martha's Vineyard, and all along to Cape Cod ?— A, There are 22 tra|)s on the south side of Cape Cod, in the bays and hasinsj about Chatham, 9 in Vineyanl Sound, 30 at Buzzard's Bay, 3 at Block! Island, 30 in Narraganset Bay. This year there have been ill trapjl and pounds on the stuithern coast of llhode Island and Massaehusetisl exclusive of Connecticut. I have not the figures for Connecticut lieiej This number represents the traps and pounds from Narraganset Bayj to the eastern end of Cape Cod. Q. Have they been increasing? — A. Yes; they are ve y measurablvl greater in uuml)er than they were when I made my first census. Q. Can you state the number of men who are employed on tliod traps? — A. The number of men required to man the traps is 43C.tha| traps requiring seven men each, taking 301. Q. Your agent would know each of those traps? — A. I have thenaiiie| of the owner, and the catch of the greater portion of them. Q. Can you tell the Commission the catch of those traps and pouiidsl — A. I have here a table of the yield of that number of pounds in 18'6| Q. Give the result. — A. For some of the species, the figures are ver accurate, and for others they are estimated to some extent, but tbi^ estimate is essentially a record of the year, so far as they have reporte it themselves, corrected by the personal observation of one at least ol my men, who lias taken a standard pound, and meted it every day hiinj self, and enumerated the catch and the kinds of fish. The total catolT for 1876 included flounders, tautog, mackerel, Spanish mackerel, poiul peno, butter fish, squlteagle, scup, sea-bass, striped bass, bluetisliJ nienblades, eels, cod, alewives, and herring. The total catch for tlij year was 34,274,350 pounds. That is from Narragausett Bay to m AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2829 rtsterii ond of Cape Cod, on tho south coast of Massanluisetts and Rhode \i\m\ "Illy. IX Not the wostorn part of Khoch* fshiiid ? — A. It iiichuU's tho whole I ^fymriifjiiiisot Hay. It does not inctlude Lonjj Island, where there are Lirrt'iit iiiiiK.V |)onnds, or the most westerly part of Uliode Island. (I. Arc ali these pounds of Hsh (capable of heiny; us(mI, and are used Lij'l,)o,lJ_A. There is a large catch of nieidiaden in tliat ir> millions. 0, llow many miles of coast-line does that catch re|»resent ? — A. hiKiiit -50 miles ot coastline. a Have you made up a calculation of the ratio of the catch per mile ? I-A. I liii^'* the ratio of 137,007 |)ounds of tlsh to the line or mile. Q. Ami to the men ? — A. The ratio of the catch is 7.S,(M0 to each man. Illietotal value of the weir catch at the lowest wholesale rate is -"(S I7,!KM> ; jt the lowest retail rate, $1,172,438; at a mean rate between the two, fliich peilia|)s more exactly represents the value, 8l,l(»0,l(J8. That, koivew, is the catch of that region oidy with traps and pounds; there |is;ilsoa very large catch with hand lines, gill nets and seines. This is it tor 94 weirs and traps. The aggregate catch of the entire fishery I on the south coast of Rhode Island and Massachusetts is 45.917,750 Lnmls, of the mean value of $1,875,840, which gives a ratio of 133,071 llwimlH per linear mile, and equivalent to $7,504 to the linear mile. The Ivielil in the trap and pound Hshery Is over 78,(!lO pounds to the man, of la money Viilue of $2,001, being the pro, Those statistics were prepared to show the amount of the fisb, iu- Icluiling the fresh fish as well as those salted ? — A. None of these are Llted except such of the salted menhaden as is for food. They do not leDteriuro the returns of pickled fish. These fresh fish go almost exclu- Isively to New York, very few to Boston. Q. It seems strange that you should be able to know the amount of Ifrtsli tish that passes into the great city aud what is caught every day. jWbiit method have you adopted t;o ascertain those facts ? — A. The entire Ifrtshtish trade of New York is confined to nineteen firms which form (the Wholesale Dealers' Association, to whose books aud figures I have lad access through and by the assistance of the large and retail dealer 111 Sew York, Mr. Blackford, who has taken great interest in my inves- ItigatioDs and is a very hearty coadjutor. He has succeeded in interest- ing those dealers, and 1 have just prepared a series of blanks in which 1 hope to have the dealers record all the catches of tish every day aud pre nif the returns. Q. You have no doubt from your relations with the dealers who con- 1 the market that you know substantially the catch? — A. I cannot ay: I know the maximum catch on the coast, but I know I have reason ^orely upon the figures of the fish that is actually marketed and comes wo the haiuls of the wholesale men. Q. A large amount escapes uotice ? — A. Yes ; all the local catch, the Itatch of tlshermeu which goes for their own benefit and is consumed ou a ■vH; ' fpWi «(■■ ■; ';M n' ■'■ jti':^»fM:.t$ .^y, ■'^* -'««W^ iifi', 'I ■"»>♦ ,^ ,v»»: :;•*' i. .r''-. h > "Nft"' rij**i "▼-i'/.^fe' ?"?*■? ,'*.■.'■'( "«*t 2830 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I Hsh tlif. III.' are the the spot; tlie catch coiiHiiined in Heapoit towns >iiies on from shore, and with hook and line for market hsh, all comes wiriim treaty limits i — A. Yes, of course, the mullet and winter Idudisli south of the treaty limits; but all the lish are practically within treaty limits. Q. And in those tisheries the Canadians have the same rights as Aiikt icans ? — A. The Canadians have the same tifjhts there as we liav,.. it does not include the fishery, not of Cape (Jod Bay and round to Kast. port. Q. Can you nuike any comparison of the corresponding ratio per mile or otherwise of the Canadian tisheries ? — A. I do not think 1 could, be cause 1 believe the returns of the Canadian fisheries are not so liufjc as they should be. I do not believe the Canadiau returns are in proportion to the actual catch. I therefore think a comparative statement wuiilil be fallacious, and 1 would rather not make it. Q. Some Canada tables have been published of the fisheries of iSIu, including, perhaps, cod and herring? — A. Those relate to all tlietisli eries. This estimate 1 submit is for weirfishiug ou a limited coiist. Q. The Canadian returns show a total amount of $I1,(M)<),()00 ?— A, I think the total estimate of the Canadian fisheries for 1870 is bi'tweeu $11,000,000 and $12,000,000. Q. If you put that of the United States at $50,000,000, would that l)e a low or high estimate ? — A. I think we could figure up over 84O,()(K),000 without any difliculty ; that is, for all the fisheries. Q. Including the lake fisheries ? — A. Including hake, ring, and slull fish. Our oyster fisheries are worth $30,000,000 a year. Q. That is nearly double the entire Canadiau return ? — A. Perhaps, There are $3,000,000 worth of oysters put in cans in Baltimore yearly. Q. They are all included in the Canadiau returns? — A. I think so, Those industries with them are not so important as ours. Our ort" sbure codfish, lake and river, shad, salmon, herring, lobster, crab, oyster, am! clam fisheries are included. Q. Now, with reasonable legislation to limit certain methods of tishiiig, is there in your judgUicnt nuy danger of the exi.stence of the insliuie,: coast, and lake fisheries ? — A. I think that the lake fisheries woulil have been exhausted and greatly destroyed in a comparatively limited imiu ber of years but for the timely warning takeu by Canada and the United! States and the measures initiated in both countries for iucreasiiijf the] supply. Q. You yourself have been very much engaged ou the subject otthi propagation of fish ? — A. Not so much in the lakes directly as in thi rivers. Q. You have shipped some of your fish by rail to California ?-A, Yes. Q. I remember reading an account of one of your large collectionsfo| California being lodged in one of the rivers by a bridge breakiiij,' ilownj for which collection the State has never paid ? — A. Yes, a car of livefisf ^hich was being sent to California. Q. In order to get some idea of the manipulation practiced in tbebri AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2831 iQ^extaliliHliinentH, porliaps you will Htate whether Htenin machinery 18 iioino«' usedf — A. That i-s a tlevioo \vv have adopted this .v«»ar for the Hf^ttiiiK' ill hat(;liiiiK shad, in wlii(;ii, instead of de])(>ndin(; on the nat- ^rjilt'iiirt'iit of tlu' rivrr usually employed, we make the trays lilled with >niin'ii iiii>^'*' tip "I'd down in tlie water in a <*ontinuons alternation, and iDthiitway hatehinjj; millions of eggs wln're formerly we vuuld only hatch llioiisiiiiils. (| Yoliciiii state a case showing the result of one year's experinuMit '. — j^, We had eleven milliuiis of shad in Siis(|uehanna Kiver in about three „U ill .May and June. Ij. Can yon state to the Coininission the result of some fish operations jtl'otoiiiac River ? — A. The instance to which you refer is that of black bass, Tlie black bass is not indigenous to the Potomac Uiver, and inxie wit' in it- About two years ago half a dozen adidt fish were pla«*ed in tlie river, and it might now be said that the I'otonuic, with the excep- tjiiiiof St. .loltn's Uiver, Florida, is the most prolillc in black bass of any streiim in the United States. Over an extent of one hundred miles, the Um\fl fi>i' black bass both for market and sport is unrivaled anywhere. (I Without claiming too much for our people, are not the ingenuity aiidiiiiliiHtry of the Ameri(;an people in taking tish for consumption ami other uses on the one hand, and in propagating tluMU on the other, very fwit and very remarkable if How is that ? — A. The niethoda of tl.sh ciiltiire as practiced in the United States, an ..1 !..< !..,. ..I' 1 1... II. .:i. mc'M iin> iiiiiri<«l MliiIrN lor IH7II OMtiiniilt' lurpiiriMl ol llio proniu^lioii 1 1 1. 1.. ;..... I ii.. I'....... ...:i..., |IIM-r< KM I'lM'll ItMMI <>l MN II ol' (MK'li llHlirr.v, iiimI liavr liroii ohiiiiiiiMl pa piUll.v Iroiii lli(> ItooUs ol" I I I I > II IMII 11 II iHTiniTI 11 ItW ill III' ili>iiliti'M ill 4 1 lniiiHti>r. <,SN»>H who liiiv»> Im'imi linr t (Ikimi' limn, , mohIoii, N(> • II>M| (Uiil rlMowlion', psnll.v tiiiil vi>r lluoiiull II lU'iiMMH III (>\viiiirv|i viMV Iinurh iVoiii tlii> i< il IIIIMIo lip ll.V III lll'l III IIMI «M nil I IM ....I. I. !..... I I . oiinuht : It IM Nitiipiv II t'oniiiiiiiMl liiiili ^ 'PttJiuat ilft1«lilU 1-iftll V%' i I I Iklll iltljl t lilt I Mil UIikIn ol II ililo IVoiii ii );n \ Ilk Kill iiii.liii' lilt- ill I'lijil il III niNi' ? A. Tlir liililcs \ mill |;il ir, iMii IIMI 'IMiry tiro pill ill liy ||i(> 1 .1.., ..... I , ...... ....,, .... |.... ... piliM' utulcr ail nnidavil. {). All cMUiiitintion will sliow llioy in'«> vriy iinn'li in ilrliiil 1-- 1 tr|. lit) s, liUo III! Ilioso oi all iialin .A. aw iiiiporr«'«M, and arc n a hwfio pori'iMila^o shoiiui bo an %.* . _ »»* _,.! 1 l»,.i 1 I. . 'iii-^l l.A^<-|»liii^, |Ff'ii|((|rr*f till f,"!^' 1 M I' flio (ruo ll^inrM. I \u\\v tin iloiil il lio aililnl lo tlio taltl(«N ol' hoi llio iliriM'lion oi ili I'liU* lis far a.s Hmu' iro )l liolh nalioii I III 'I III N III >\v Worhl. H'll tlu\v aro ar»>nrnl(« Hs lar n.s i> iliriMWiiin <>'. iloHoioilO.V, IIOl of OMM'NM, III l| MJllltM 1 V \°I>M ; il lli(\v ««ir, it is writ! I. It IS .s«» ^111 hoi!i suli's r — . Yoii aro allowod a pri'lt.v MS? — A, I liavoall lln> t'liM'ks and in I' i>r lliitui\ I nopaitmiMilN . .. ...It...' ... . .1. .1 I lin Tniiisiiii'V nil I iMIiMllais. I llil ruiu'tionarios. I Post, ll(M>, XrilMM O. Ill VI iM's of tlif rounlrv, m soa t\sl I of all kinds, ilio i llllll 01 11(1 llio siippi llu> llsli. do you I llil vo is r.nv oni> \ii\u\ ot I whuMi wouM provi* llllll l\ lll^'IV" llil 4«I1^ \f\\\ Isli, tlic riiiliir lliat tlii> (Mitiro failure of any Kind oi .1.: ...I.l .,< l,.t.. 11... iK.'l... 4 It 11-1^1 .-^\-| ll.ll.'^ Illjllll'l, r.in II, II tlu> (iiilf of Ht. ljawr«MH"o f « ol' aiiv kind of llsli would iiiittiM', sindi, for iiislaiin>, •o If — A. I do not III this would sliniulato tlio lisluM It l'IUII«U'l Id iil1(<«'.f th«^ ^ 'd clVorls ippi.v plii'd h\ tlio Sou ithor tlsh. If all tlio ma disaiMMMircd. Ilioir nh illot. which Mi'<> iii ahiii lOfianliii},' ^ i»'»>s would l)(« iM'«>l. and whit iiiHMii iiiiiiit'i, wiiuMi nil* iiior(< aim foiild Im> takiMi in twin< lli«< nun idaiif than I 'II ('OIIIU IM' lillvI'M II .1 I. ...I ..... ...I •!... ovory iiiai'korol wisdosli iianlily, if not i n'k«Mrl DshtM'iiuMi woiih lie II lion the SoutluMii t'oast, and takf tin* n <\ \' I < .....I.. ■• K.... > tlii> iiiiiIUm and pi(-kh> IIhmii I }iO (10 O. Vo May ?— A. Yes iir lasi siaiiMiKMn oiilv to llsli cau^fht iiorl inclndc any SimiiIkm'i III 01 ( h ot I IK sa , 11 lim-.> IHM III! llllll- illlf 1111 ii> llsli in Sitiit liiii'ii u'!iti, ."Mllll such as I lie liliii'lis 11 o {). Is Tano Alii treaty luio ; this line eiitsoti oi tlio I'oast th U«- Ml n'lr. \ ii|ii' iii.i^> llllll I II ii.-i J ii.-ii .11 III (.). So fh at 1 l>ay J — A. No : but only [or i'«>ast oi Now do I no iisiKM los on iiioooasi oi i> y — and tVoin that northwanl. ■ir.i_> .11111 iiviili I l>y Mr. Thoiuson : (>. All ti in allot his ova it not f- lioooiniiiji tlio hsli this tish. tho o; —A. It IS nothiiij;' niort 1 >.. . IIV llil IllV , I IV tll.ll'll lll.lll M'lli wiiat I Judyo from tho oxi-t' thoy are talioii, and tho oaso wil tJM'' «iiii »tuii:ii iiii\\ Hie liiiveii) aim AVVAHK Ol' I'lIK I'MHMKKY «J»»MMIHHI()N. 2H33 llii'viin* <'"<<'*'« ii'i'l "**^ ««xliMil, to wliirli \{, Ih pmrlictM] im ii, lociil llHlicry 1)\ ilH> |**''*^ ol' Norlli (liii'oliiiu iiiitl oIImm iSoiiUmmii Ktiil.cH. '(», lliiN not. tliiil lishory lMMii iiiiowii (IS II llHliory lor homio yriUH. 0, |Vr.MoiiH liav«H or.'K> y«Mtr(« ii^o (I(»wn Honlli ?— A.'VcH. I), Anil il IniH not pt'o^roNHiMl iil, nil an I'ooil for NorMKMti conHninp- Ijiiiil-'A. II IH not now iihimI hh ir IooiI-IIhIi in llii^ Norlli ; hnt, it, Ih ii DhIi ivhirli (KM'iipioH Mill pliM'.n of Nortlirrn IImIi IIh'oiikIi u liir^o portion of Mm SolltlUMIl SI II I OH. 0, Do yon know IVoin iloDiiitr ptMMoniil l(iiowliMl(;n of your own I nMliiT tli*\v wonlil not, niMit'r liiivi^ iJiiinHMio Hin^lit huH, nitirkiuol iJiiin Lwlntln Itiinvl of ninlliry lirHl |lliiii)!ivri who arn «aif,;a^i'd in llm .sca- jlisliiMii'Htliat HoiiMii'i'ii l).sli,or, in olln'r woiiIh, IIhIi t,akteiiil»(ir, and lasts until Novi'inlmr and Diummh- IIht, Q. Villi ,say it i.s a (Mildwatcr fiHliory ; lint the water is nothing; like |a,snilil llicre as it Ih in our waleiH dnrint; the saine, niontliH? — A. N«); iliulllut water t,here is ahoiit as (;old in wiiitiT — -if not then (piite as told— !iH it: i.s here in tlui Niimnier time. I}, doiilil cod, ("roin your knowled;. Are not the mullet also a fat lish ? — A. Yen; they are very fat. (). Is net this fact also against transportation? — A. f do not know. iiiot versed in the pliysiiis of transportation. IQ. How loiin ajjo is it siniie yon lirst turneil your attejitiori to the, felieriivs ul all ? — A. I have done so Hinco I.S7I. [Q. I'rovioiis to that time your Hpee(Mi interesti^d in tish as a branch of /oology ptaj,'roat many y.iars. I liavo been a specialist in icthyolo;(y, and I scrilHMl prior to tiiat date hundreds of new Hpecics. M). SpoaUiiijj; about the pounds establishoil aloufj the New En;^laiid lore, bow many of them er of the clause of >rty sccuiftl lin and tbc iiiig, euriiii;. rein detiiieil, tjects of Her ic XXXIII of J and slKires. tia, andNew Hlands there- ith inTiiiis- bo Ma;;dalf'J n'obibited I , as is tlie I that auy i ite natiou, I •,Q preiiavA- absolutely! of a gveatl started 'M ts j^ivcniwj lie iiuttiiigl ibis treaty,! lo the Bnt-f ^r country^ [that if you Kauslion the UuiteJ . require ii the insliore Ashing of herring and shad, or other incoming tish, regulates that to some extent, it does not cover the whole ground. Q. I want a direct answer: are you able to state that the destruction of bait, by reason of the bad treatment of these rivers, only affects the fishing along the coast to the extent of three miles from it? — A. I can not say that ; I cannot say how far such effect extends, and nobody can do so. Q. It is reasonable to suppose that it extends for a considerable dis- tance farther than three miles from the coast ? — A. That I cannot say. Q. Would this not more likely drive the flsh to other coasts where the rivers are not so treated ? — A. Fish certainly have to go where they can get food, and if they cannot procure it on one spot they have to go to some other spot for it. Q. Is it not probable that they will go where the rivers are not so badly treated ? — A. This depends on how far cod and haddock will migrate, under any circumstances. If they leave the shore, but can find an ample supply of food on Georges Bank or on Nantucket Shoals, they will probably stay there. Q. Do cod njigrate at all? Is this known for a certainty to be the case ? — A. It is not certain that they have such migrations as we ascrihe to the bluefish and mackerel; whether they traverse a mile of sea bot- tom in search of food, or whether they go 100 miles for it, under any circumstances, I cannot say. Q. I understood you to say yesterday that you could not trace their migrations at all? — A. No, I cannot. Q. And you do not pretend to say that they do migrate? I rather understood you to say also thjit mackerel do not migrate? — A. They migrate, but they do not sweep along the coast — at least I do not think they do so, as was formerly supposed, for very many miles ; but rather come direct from their winter grounds inshore. Q. I ujiderstood you to say, your theory at present was that there was a vast body of mackerel which, forming one wing of their army, passed along the American coast ; and that another wing directed their course into the gulf ?— A. Yes. Q. I see that in the Answer of the United States, page 10, the follow ing language is used : The migration of mackerel in the spring begins on the Atlantic coast from a point as far sonth as Capo Hatteras. The first-comers reach Proviucetown, Mass., about M,\v 10. Here they begin to scatter, and they are fonnd during the entire season along the New England coast. •' Whatever may be the theories of others on the snbjeot," says Professor Baird, 'the American mackerel lisher knows perfectly well that in spring, about May, ho will tiud the schools of mackerel off Cape Hatteras, and that he can follow them uorthward, ; day by day, as they move in countless myriads on to the coast of Maine, of Nova Scotia, and into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. They may be occasionally lost sight of by their i tsinking below the surface ; but they are sure to present themselves, shortly after, tu those who look for them farther north and east." Do you now adhere to that statement ?— A. I think that was not tlie I most philosophical expression on that subject. My views in regard to tbe proper theory concerning mackerel have been modified since then, to f the extent I have alleged. Q. In fiict, if I correctly und-^rstootl you yesterday, you rather inclined | AWARD OF THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 2837 to the theory which haa beou started here, that mackerel are not a migratory fish at all, but hyheruate iu the mud ?— A. 1 ^ mnot precisely say; but the evidence is quite strong in favor of hylorniitiou of some kiiul, though I do not consider the case proven in this respect ; at the same time I do not consider it philosophical to refuse to countenance its [lossibility. Q. Will you tell me how, if possible, it could be otherwise, if it is true that the mackerel have, in the spring, scales over their eyes, as has beeu described by witnesses here, and, as I understand, you admit. — A. Icauuot say that this is the case; 1 have never seen it. Q. If these scales are on their eyes they could not possibly do otlicr- ffisethan hibernate ?—;A. 1 cannot say that; I am not a mackerel, and I could not tell what they do or what they do not do. Q. Is it certain that any tish, that you are aware of, hibernate in the niiuH— A. That is not certain, but it is believed to be the case. Q. Do you know of any fish which certainly does hibernate? — A. The eel does. Q. Is its eyes protected against the mud by scales ? — A. This is not the case so far as I know. It has not been noted or reported. Q. How has it become a theory if it has never been noted ? Is it the waut of experience with reference to mackerel that you do not know whether scales are found over its eyes or not? — A. I have never caught mackerel in the critical period of the year when they are said to have scales over their eyes ; but a specimen which I have preserved in alco- hol did have scales over its eyes, though the action of the alcohol on the cornea of the eye always tends to make it opaque and destroys its transparency. Q. Is there Jiny period of the year when mackerel must be i)revented from seeing, as far as you can judge from the specimen which you pos- sess.'—A. No; I cannot say that. Q. What are these scales for? — A. I cannot say. The theory of the tisberaieu, however, is that it is to curb the roving habits of the mack- erel, and make it more ready to stay in the mud ; and that otherwise they would not want to stay there; that is the hypothesis of the fisher- men, and I give it for what it is worth. Q. You do not assent to it ? — A. No ; it is not proven to be true. Q. And it is not disproveu ? — A. AH that is proven in this respect is, tliat In winter we do not see the mackerel ; they do not then school on the surface, nor do they go to the West Indies, or to Bermuda, or to Florida; nor do they then ai)pear on the surface anywhere as far as the testiuioiiy has gone. Q. With reference to the inshore fisheries in the State of Maine, and in the States of New England, generally, are they depleted or not? — A. [ The boat-fisheries there are not what they were 50 or 100 years ago ; that, I think, I am perfectly safe in saying; but whether there has beeu j any decrease in them during the past few years I cannot say. Q. I now quote from your own report, part second, for the years 1872 I and 1873, page xi ; it is headed " Conclusions as to decrease of "aptured with the hook throughout the greater part of the year. A. Yes. Q. Do you dissent now from that opinion ? — A.. No ; I used that as an impressive lesson to the State legislature to induce them to pass the measures necessary to restore these river fisheries, which tbey are uow j doing very rapidily. | Q. Where is Capt. U. S. Treat, of Eastport, now ? — A. lu Japau, teaching the Japanese how to catch and cure fish. Q. On page xiv of this lleport you say : Whatever may be the importance of increasing the supply of salmon, it is trilliiij compared with the restoration of our exhausted cod-fisheries; and should these be brought back to their original condition, we shall find within a short time an in- crease of wealth on our shores, the amount of which it would bo ditfioult to calculate. Not only would the general prosperity of the adjacent States be enhanced, but in the increased number of vessels built, in the large number of men induced to devote them- selves to maritime pursuits, and in the general stimulus to everything connected with j the business of the sea-faring profession, we should be recovering, in a gro;it measure, from that loss which has been the source of so much lamentation to political econo- mists and well-wishers of the country. That you still adhere to? — A. Certainly. I made that report a.s im- pressive as I could in order to produce the etioct desired, which was to j cause the legislature to pass a law in this regard, and it has hail that effect. They have passed such laws, and 1 hope that this evil will bej remedied in a reasonable number of years. Q. It is not remedied yet? — A. No. Q. It takes a number of years to do that ? — A. I can give an iustaneej where it has had such effect, if you like to have it. In ]\Iiissaclinsettsj the most has been done for the restoration of alewives and shad iu thej Merrimack River; and the shore fisheries there have now increased in aj very marked degree. At the present time it is perfectly possible for a| man to go out in a boat from the city of Newburyport and catch 4,0" pounds of codfish and bring them back the same night. This is the oulj river in Massachusetts in which very great efforts have been made toj restore these river fisheries ; and it is now possible to capture these lisli army, an a AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2839 iiimiicli greater quantities than was tbe case 10 years ago; and this I ascribe to the action of the State goveruinent with regard to tbe res- toration of river fish. Q. How many pounds did you mention ? — A. 4,000. Q. Caught by a single man ? — A. Two men will do it; a man with a trawl and an assistant will go out in an open boat in the morning from the city of Newburyport and come back at night, or go out at night and return in the morning, and in the mean time take 4,000 pounds of cod. That is the only point along there at which, at that distance from the shore, I know that it is possible to catch cod in such numbers. (J. Mnst not a great lapse of time, or at least a very considerable lapse of time occur, before the fisheries destroyed, as you have here de- scribed, can be restored by the process j'ou speak of ? — A. I think that this depends on the amount of time necessary for the restoration of the lisli, which run out to sea from the rivers. I think that if this year there are no such fish as alewives, &c., to run into these rivers, and that if next year a great army was to so run in, concurrent with that aruiy, an army of cod and other fish would be there to prey upon them. Q. I see that in your Keport for 1872 and 1873, referring to the lake lisb, you say on page Ixxxi : The restoration of food-fishes to localities originally tonanted by them, or their tmnsfer to ii«w waters, is, however, a (juestioii of time; and in the immense extent of our river and lake systems, many years must necessarily elapse before the work can be iicconii)lished. A. That is a great number of years, certaiidy ; but that does not so nmch refer to any particular river as to the aggregate rivers and lakes scattered over the whole body of the United States. Q. You say here that " many years must necessarily elapse'' ? — A. Certainly. Q. When did you commence this work ? — A. The actual processs of artificial propagation began, under my direction, in 1873. Q. Do you refer to any term of years ? I suppose that you mean a period of 10, 12, or 14 years. — A. It might be more. The time of course depends on the expenditure involved, and the concurrence of suitable legislation to protect the fish, and many other points. Q. How many flshbreediugestablislniients have j^ou in the States ? — A, Nearly every State in the Union has now a series of fish commis- sioners, whose business it is to propagate lish within their borders. Q. There is only one in each State ? — A. There is one State establish- uii'ut; and a certain number of private establishments in each, founded for tbe purpose of gain. Q. Do you know how many there are in Canada ? — A. I know there are a great many. Canada is doing most admirably in this respect. Q. And very much more in proportion than the United States '! — A. Xo; I think not. I think by far less in proportion. (,•. In proportion ? — A. Yes. Q. To population'? — A. I do not say according to population. I shall qualify that statement by saying that what is done in Canada is done ou a much less scale of magnitude than is the case in the United States. j I mean that the aggregate of artificial propagation in the United States isuuicb greater than the aggregate in Canada; but I would not take a ratio. I think that both Canada and the United States are doing as niueb as they can in this regard, in the time that has been allowed for I the purpose. Q. I suppose that Canada is doing a very large work in this connec- Itiou?— A. She is doing most admirably — yes. 11 ''^'* ' 2840 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. She is expending large sums of money on it ? — A. Certainly. She is doing most admirably. I am very bappy to say tliat Canada and thv United States are working concurrently in a great many dircction.s jn tbe line of artificial fisb culture. Q. Do you know tbe Canadian establisbraent on Detroit River*— \ Yes. ■ ' Q. Is it doing a large business? — A. I don't know what it is dojuff this year ; but last year I understand that it did a very large business' Q. It then hatched 10,000,000 eggs ?— A. Yes, very likely. Q. You say that cod cannot live except in cold water? — A. Tlio cod is an inhabitant of the colder waters. Q. Are you aware whether or not the Gulf Stream during; tlie sum. nier months swings in at all more toward tbe American coast .'—A, It does. Q. For how many miles? — A. I cannot say. Q. Would that have any effect in driving the cod away from tlie American shores? — A. No; not the slightest. Q. You think not ? — A. Yes ; it has not the slightest effect on tliein, If you go down to a certain depth in the ocean, in the tropics or any- where else, you will find the water cold enough for cod ; and there is nothing* to prevent the cod being as abundant in tropical waters— say off Brazil or the West Indies — as anywhere else; as far as teriii)eraturt' is concerned, it is cold enough there for them at a certain depth. Q. Have they ever been caught there ? — A. Not that I know of; but the water there is cold enough for them. Q. Is it not very venturesome to state that there is nothing to prevent them staying there? — A. They may be there, but they have not been caught there. Nobody has fished at those great depths, for you have got to go down from 6,000 to 15,000 and 20,000 feet to find that'tenipera- ture in tropical seas. Q. Have you the slightest idea as to what sort of animals reside down there? — A. Yes. We have a very good knowledge of such species as can be taken up by the trawling line and dredge from those depths; and we know that an ample supply of food suitable for cod is to be found there. Q. Has any beam-trawl or dredge ever taken cod in those regions .'- A. No ; you do not catch cod with small trawls anj' more than yon can so catch whales. By Sir Alexander Gait: Q< Would not the temperature in those waters interfere with tlie I spawn of the cod, as this spawn floats? — A. I think that the water there might be too warm for the development of codfish eggs in the abstract;] but the effect would be to make them hatch out more rapidly than would be the case in cold water. Of course it is a very serious qiiestioutoj decide whether, with the present constitution of the cod, its eggs would! develop in warm water, though whether it might not evolute and develop j into a warm-water cod I do not know. By Mr. Thomson : Q. On page CO of your Keport for 1872 and 1 873, you use the followj ing language : It is in another still more important connection tbat ^ve should cousi ler tliealewiffJ It is well known that within the lastthirty or forty years the fisheries of cod, haddock, audi hake along our coasts have measurably diminished, and in some places ceased entirely.f Enough may be taken for local consumption, but localities which formerly furuislied tbe material for an extensive commerce in dried fish have been entirely abaudoDeiLI AWAUl) OK THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 2841 Various caiisi s havn been aHuigneil for tliiw condition of tbiiij^H, and, anionjj others, tho nili'iicl (liiniiiiit i<"> of tlio sca-lierring. After a carel'nl consideration of t lie .snlycct, liow- 'ver I am sti()nf;l.V inclined to iielieve that it is duo to the diniinntion, and, in many iiistancoH, to the extermination of tho alowives. As already remarked, liefore tho con- struction of tlaniH in tho tidal rivers tho alowifa was found in in<'rediblo nnmbers along our coast, i)n>l)ably remaining not far from shore, excepting when moving up into the fresh wattT, antl, at any rate, spending a considerable interval olf tho mouths of •lio rivers oitlit^r at the time of thoir journey upward or on their return. The young, too. after M'tiirning from the ocean, usually swarmed in tho same localities, and thus liirnisliwl for the larger species a bait such as is not supplied at present by any other tish the •wa-li^''r'"S ""* •'^''^'P*'*'*!' We know that tho alewifo is particularly attract- ive as a l>ait to other lishes, espociiilly for cod and mackerel. A. Do I say mackerel .' Q Yes.— A. That is an inadvertence. I ilo not tliinlc that tiie ale- wit'e is a bait for mackerel. Q. Yoii say : Wo kuow that the alewifo is particularly attractive as a bait to other fishes, espe- tially for cod and mackerel. A. Well, I should not have said that. Q. The alewivea are the same as the fish we call gaspereaux in New Brnuswick ? — xV. Yes. Q. You tixrther say : Alewives enter tho streams on the south coast of Now England before tho arrival of I tie bliiefisli ; hut the latter devote themselves with great assiduity to the capture of I the young as they come out from their breeding-ponds. The outlet of an alewifo pond is always a capital place for the bluo-fish, and as they come very near tho shore in such localities, they can bo caught there with the lino by what is called "heaving and hauliug," or throwing a squid from the shore, and hauling it in with the utmost I rapidity. Tbe coincidence, at least, in the erection of the dams, and the enormous diminution liDtbennuibcr of the alewives, and the decadence of the inshore cod-tishery, is cer- liainly very remarkable. It is probable, also, that the mackerel lisheries have snf- Iferedin the same way, as these (ish find in the young menhaden and alewives an attract- livebait. You see you say that twice. — A. Tliat is an inadvertence. Q. You say : It is probable also that the mackerel fisheries havosntfered in the same way, as these |ijlilindin the young menhaden and alewives an attractive bait. A. TLis is the case ou the northern coast probably. Q. It is hardly an inadvertence ? — A. It is an inadvertence. It is a [coiiclusion that is not justified by the fact. Q. Then you dissent from that opinion now? — A. \'es; 1 do not con- sider that it has a bearing on the mackerel question. Q. All that goes to show that all these speculative opinions are enti- led to little weight ; you see that you have changed your opinion in pis respect ? — A. Certainly ; as the data vary the conclusions also vary. Q. 1 suppose you will admit that there is not the slightest reason why Hthin the next three years you may not have come back to the same Minion which you now repudiate, or have then formed opinions totally Merentfrom those which you now express before the Commission ? — jl. Icanuot say ; that will depend entirely on the facts as they come. Q. After all, this is all the purest theory '! — A. It is an hypothesis ; it bot a theory. IQ. Well, it is an hypothesis ? — A. It is not a theory until it is abso- m certified by the facts. 1 Q. Then, of course, an hypothesis is more vague than a theory. You live in a mass of figures just now, which you state were made up by Nr assistant, based upon information which you have got from some 1 1*1 m ■r*" h" •J «i' ri | ery Department of Canada or the United States or any wiiere else. Q. If I rightly understood your answer to ]\Ir. Dana yesterday, vol rather think that the throwing over of oftal amounts to nothing l-j No; I do not think that it does amount to anything. Q. I thought you gave a rather interesting description of sea-lleas.j A. I merely say that it is a question whether it is or was injurioiis the food of fishes on the coast, as has been maintained. It is a (|uesti(J as to which we have no definite i>roof that it injures the fishes; aiulj am inclined to believe that it has more of a local and immediate etlef on the fish than it does injury to the fish. Q. Would it not necessarily injure the spawn in its iieighborhood!| A. No. Q. You think not?— A. No. Q. Not if thrown over on the top of spawn ? — A. No ; you mig throw it over all day long and try to injure a load of floating spawual you could not do it. Nobody has ever suggested that gurry affects t* spawn. By spawn I suppose you mean eggs. Q. Yes. — A. No ; nothing of the kind is to be thought of. AWARD OF THE FISHKKY COMMISSION. 2843 Q, You quoted yesterday Ml". WUiUiaves'a Report ; ho says on page 11 : l,)i»s<' Aini'iiciuiB ni'o nlluwtid to fish in Caniuliiin watorn, the custom (said to bo DnKtiM'il !>>■ tliciii) tif HplittiiiH; tlio lisli caught at Moa, uiul tiirowiiif; tlm oll'al ovorboanl, m ilie lisbiiil? K'''*'""'' **''""l'i '"'I l*** permitted. A. I do not thiuk that I quoted Mr. Whiteaves on that point, but ffiili regard to the spawninjj-timo of mackerel in the bay. Q, hi your Report of 1872 and 1873, Mr. Mihier is your assistant s — 1 A. Vcs. (J. Oil paye 19 I find this hmguage used : TiiiniwiNii OFiAi, ON TiiK iisiiiN(i-(ii!<)rM»s.— It is tlie uiiifbrni testimony of all I fiherinen tliiit tlirowinjrort'il oi dead fish in tlio vicinity of tlie lishinj{-j{ronnds isotl'eii- Lvitotlic «i!it;;iiah, and drives hitn away. The wiiitetish is jtocnliarly chiaiily in its !i«tiuit8i "'"1 has an aversion for ninddy or fonl water of any description. Most fislier- luitii rfg»n\ their own interest snflllciently to be carefnl in tliis particnlar, while many I tartleM and shiftless men injnre themselves and others by dumpin)rott'al and (hiad (ish Imrwheroiii the lake where they lind it convenient, reducing the catch in the vicinity 1 for several inoiiths. A. Ves. Q. It is also stated : lusalable fishes are generally tlirown overboard in the vicinity of the nets. You do not dissent from that opinion? — A. No; not at all. The leases, Uowever, are totally different. There are no scavengers in fresh jifater as there are in the sea ; there are no seafieas, or sculpin, or lob- Lteis, or anything of the kind, to clean up oftal in fresh Avater, as is the lease in the ocean. Q, In yonr opinion, are purse seiners proper or improper agents for lakingflsh? — A. I have not formed any opinion on the subject; but 1 Tim inclined to thiuk, however, that this is not a destructive mode of ping. Tiiey destroy a good many tish, but I do not think that they tdimiaish the absolute number of lish in the sea. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q, Will you repeat that ? — A. I say I do not thiuk that they affect llie total number of the fish in the sea materially, although they destroy )d(1 waste a great many lish. If you will permit me I would state my leasou tor tliis view ; it is this : Every school of mackerel has a large lodv of predatory fish attendant upon it, such as dogfish, sharks, and ^ther species, which are bound to have so many tish a day. They will (at their one, two, or three fish a day, and if they cannot get them dead tlieywiil eat them alive ; therefore, if a large body of young mackerel [stliiowu out of these purse-seines, besides mackerel which are rejected mil worthless, the predatory fish that are attendant upon the mackerel rill eat these dead fish, and if they do not find them dead they will laketbera alive ; so it does not affect the number of fish iu the sea. By Mr. Thomson : I Q. Are you positive about that; do you undertake to say that the inlaceous fishes will, in preference to capturing live fish, which they hn easily do, be content with dead ones? — A. I think that is very llflj-. Q. There, there — you say "very likely'*? — A. I cannot say. I am jot a predacious fish ; but 1 would prefer a live fish. 1 am pretty sure, pwever, that these fish are quite ready to be saved the trouble of taking pprey. It is on precisely the same principle that bait-fish, such as pliuaud herring, are placed on hooks and cast overboard to catch the Jiefish, which follow and eat them in the natur.al way. I think this a.v be inferred from that. M ..^ -it. ^^■- : ... . .y-' 4,., .,!■ i * ■ ^ i .V. r ,1,.-T;4".ii. ■; - •* ] =^' i 2844 AWAUD OP THE FI.SHEKY COMMISSION. "■f aiM '^.'i niillions were taken hy 1:',ikki Q. You have soimtliiiig to do witli the Anuiial Keconl ol'Sciei Industry, I believe ? — A. SoinetliiMj' — yes, Q. Do you agree with tlie liuiguiige used in an artit-Ie <'oiitiiin('(i„n| page 473 of this Journal lor JS7-' ^— A. I did not write that, but I imi, lishcd it. Q. Have you in any article stated that you (lisseut from It?— a. No It is not my business to do so. That article nuMely relltMUs tlu' o|iiiijiiiil of the writer. I would bo very sorry to believe one-halt of what I lisli in that periodical; but it expresses the progress of belief and scifiic,..! and 1 take it accordingly. i^. It is a matter of speculation whether deau . are eaten, as yom say, by predaceous fishes; this is mere theory 7 — A. I have no doubt tliatf they are so eaten. iJy jNIr. Whiteway : Q. You have stated that the largest (piantily of codfisli taken in shortest possible time was in the vicinity of the Lortoden Islands ;-\j Yes. Q. You said that something like l>eople? — A. Yes. Q. In a very short time — in the course of three months .'—A, V(S| and in a very small space. Q. Where did you get your statistics from ? — A. From a report oltlij Norwegian Government. Q. For what year ?— A. 1808, I think. Q. Whose report was it ? — A. It is an extremely hard jawbreakij title ; it is an abstract, prepared by Hermann Baa? of liergon, Xoiwajf It was au article prei)ared by him for presentati t the Paris Kxhibl tion. Q. You have not seen reports published since thuu time .' — A. 0, yeij I have them much later. Q. IJid these later statistics correspond with the former as rcgan the quantity t — A. I know that the capture of cod in Loffoden Islands. 1876, amounted to 21 or 22 millions ; I have the figures here. Q. Are you aware what quantity of codfish is caught on thecoastj Newfoundland? — A. No. I have been earnestly trying to get the: tistics of Newfoundland in this respect, but I have not been abk'too| tain them as yet. I hope you will send them to me. Q. You are not aware whether it is an inshore or deepsoa tishervi that island ? — A. No. I know nothing about it. Q. You say that fish are dried and used as food for cattle in thej islands and in Norway ? — A. Yes. Q. What sort of cattle use it? — A. Horses, oxen, and cows; tlieyi it with great avidity. Q. What portion do they make use of? — A. Any part, but more gi erally the heads, which are ott'al ; they make most admirable untiinjej Q. You say that a great many nations dress very largely in tbeskij of cod and salmon ? — A. Y'es. Q. Will you kindly tell me what nations these are ? — A. Tbey Tchuktchi, the Aleutian Islanders, the Noiton Sound Es(iuin]aux,otlj natives of Alaska, and a few others. Q. You say further that the most extensive resorts of cod are| Grand Banks and George's Bank ; can you tell me the quantity of f taken on these banks ? — A. No ; I have not made any investigation tabulation in this regard. Q. Then you really base that opinion upon no d3«^a?— A. I meil base it on my general impression on that subject. I merely speaB AWARD OK TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. 2845 I li^,.,. ,,j»beiiiK tlin most promhitMit piutioiilar banks aiul localities which |.|ij,^,,j,l li(M|iient. Ill s|K'akiti;; of the ishnids and other phiccs in this iiiitimH'tioiit I incntioiu'il banks oil the coast of Labraihir, bnt I did not Irt'lt r to tlui fjieat sweep of northern waters wliero tho cod is found dif- l,,i,il. I ri'tcrred more partictdarly to tho phices that are known and piililiclyiiK'iitioiied. What is not published in this re;,'ar(l 1 know notii- IjllL' llllOllt. (I, With rctcrence to Labrador, can you anawe" whether tho tlsh are lakeiiiiist""*' — that is, within the three-mile ranj^e, oroii tho lianks ofl"- Lire?— A. 1 am told, l>ut I cannot say with what c» rtainty, that at (tain seasons of the year the cod are tliere taken in great quantities Ssliore t'roiii boats, but that the great bodies of the lish are on tho Banks some (liHtaiice from the shore. Q. Are these Banks tished f — A. That I cannot tell. (I, Where are these Banks? — A. As far as I can learn, they extend It a distance of some l.j or 25 miles, perhaps, along almost the entire njili of the coast of Labrador. ij. Will you pledge yourself to that statement ? — A. Xo ; I know noth- V about it. {}. I'loin whom did you get this information ! — A. From the published ritings di Professor Hind. Q. I think he indicates iu these writings the exact position of these luksJ— A. 1 think that probably he r Ihothers, the Encjiopedia of Commerce, edited by J 1 presume that is an authority that can be relied upon (reads (letiiiition). 1 suppose that is a delinitiou that can be relied upon ? — A. }fo' 1 think it cannot be relied upon at all. That would make anything that floats in the water a tish. So that the seal would be a fish and the otter would be a tish. (}, This is the Encyclopedia of Commerce. I suppose it is reliable. liuean as an encj'clopedia of coujuierce? — A. Well, I don't know. I ilflii't think it is (pioted very much. It is probably a very good compi- lation. There are a great many books of that class that one has occasion to look at without feeling that they are perfectly accurate. (J, Do you consider the seal a tish ? — A. Not at all. Q. Why?— A. Because it is a warm-blooded mamnuil. It breathes by means' of lungs, &c. Q. Is not the whale the same? — A. The whale is no more a fish than itlie seal. Q, It is a mammal; it is a swimmer? — A. If you were to fall over- lard ill mid-ocean you would be a swimmer. Q, How is it with the walrus ? — A. It is a nuunmal, not a fish. 1^, So is the whale, is it not? — A. Yes. Q. How do you draw a distinction between the whale and the seal ; Iheoiieyou consider a fish and the other not ? — A. I don't consider the al a lish. Q, I thought you ■ 2850 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. How many stages have j'ou ? — A. I only run one ; I Lave others ! but I only run one. Q. Do you have a store also in connection with your business ' \ i Yes. ' ' Q. What do you pay these men as wages. You say they aro emploveJ by you ? — A. The average wages are, I think, about $22 or $23 eacli Q. Do you flud them ?— A. Yes. Q. For how many months in the year ? — A. Very near four— three an( a half. Q. Then you have the total produce of their catch ? — A. Yes. Q. What do they catch? — A. Fish — mackerel principally. Q. Now, you have a house at Rustico ? — A. Y'^es. Q. You live there with your family ?— A. Yes. Q. "What are your facilities for observing where the vessels audboatsl fish off Rustico ? — A. I can see. Of course we are not on a cape, ktj we can see a few miles around. Q. Your place of business and home are in sight of the harbor, audi the sea beyond it? — A. Yes. Q. Now I would like you to tell the Commission where the boats tislj for mackerel off Rustico; how far out they go and how close in ?— A, is all distances, of cours;?. In the spring and summer raoutbs tbeyal^ ways flsh in closer. Q. How near is " close in ? "—A. From a mile to three miles. Laterij the season they have to go out. Q. How far?-^A. As far as ten miles. The last month of tbisyeaj they were out ten miles. The average is eight or seven. Tbey go i so that you can't see the boats. Q. What is the size of the boat? — A. Well, the boats are 2" too feet keel. Q. How does the size of the boats that are built for the last twooi three years compare with those that were used previously ?— A. Tliej have built larger boats for the last two or three years. A few yeaij ago they used small boats altogether, about 15 or IG feet keel. Q. Are they being made bigger to enable them to go farther out !•{ A. Yes. It is fall flsh we depend upon mostly. The small boats doiil like to go off for them. Q. What do you mean by saying you depend mostly upon tlie fa| flsh ? — A. Well, the mackerel go oft" in the fall. They don't keei close in as they do in the spring and summer. Q. Which part of the mackerel season is the most important, tl< earlier or the latter part ? — A. The latter part, of course. Q. Why? — A. Because the mackerel are larger and fatter later in tli season. They are growing. The flrst mackerel are always poor. Tin last mackerel we expect to be fat. Q. Has the mackerel season ended yet ? — A." It is about ended ; tlifj are hauling in the boats now. Q. W^hen did it begin ?— A. The 10th of July. Q. For boat-fishing, has this been a good year? — A. Yes; ithasbe^ a fair, pretty good year. Q. What has been the quality ? — A. The average has been poor, Q. But the quantity ? — A. The quantity has not been great, but tli prices have been high. We haven't caught a great many. Q. How was the year's business in 18G7 ? — A. Poor, very poor. Q. What was the result of last year's business ? Did you make lose ?— A. We lost. ' Q. How much ?— A. Over $3,000. AWARD OF IHE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2851 harbor, aiiil^lliarbor, Q, Will you make it up this j'ear ? — A. I wish I could ; I will not do gu\ better; I would be satisfied with that. Q, You have had an opportunity' of observing, of course, where the jjuited States vessels fish ? — A. So far as there are any outside oil" Kostico. 0, You know where the mackerel fishers fish oft'Rustico? — A. Yes. 0, IIow far off do they go ? — A. They are sometimes inside and some- times outside. The last two or three years v^e haven't had any there to speak of. I think ten or a dozen is as high as I have seen within two or tbree years. Q. Usually, principally or chiefly, do they fish within or more than tliree uiiles from land off Rustico? — A. It is very hard to say ; I should jjv about three miles was whei'e they fish. Sometimes you see the fleet jntside, and the boats run out to see what they are doing. It is a part of tbe island they don't care about staying in close. Q. Why, is there not a harbor ? — A. There is no harbor ; there is a irbor. but it is not fit for a vessel. A vessel can't come into Rustico. {}. Why not ? — A. There is no water ; it is a barred harbor. Q, What is the depth of water over the bar? — A. Eight feet of water. Q. With what tide ?— A. With a good tide. Q, Do you know about how far it is from the land off Rustico to a jftniight line run from Cape North to East Point? Suppose you drew a ktraigbt line from Cape North to East Point, how long would the line I from Rustico to meet that straight line at right angles ? — A. 1 don't inoff auy more than I have heard. I have heard it slated as high as [miles. It is over 20. I never measured. I don't know anything ^bout it any more than I have heard. Q. You were on the island during the Reciprocity Treaty ? — A. Yes. Q. You were there at the time when there was a duty on mackerel? — Yes. Q. You were there when the Washington Treaty passed, and have leei) since? — A. Yes. Q. Xow, I want to know what you regard the effect of the fishery fclauses of the Washington Ti-eaty to be upon the fishing interest of puce Edward Island ? — A. Well, so far as that is concerned, we would ■ather put our fish in free than pay $2 a barrel ; that is all. Q, You know how you regard it ; I want your opinion. — A. Well, |bat is all ; of course I look at the money ; not anything else. We mild rather not pay $2 than pay it. Q. Did you have to pay it when there was a duty on it? — A. Yes. Q. Didu't it come out of the people you sold the fish to in the States? ■A. If I hire men, I lose that. Q. You are satisfied of that ? — A. I am sure of it. Q. Suppose the duty was to be reimposed on fish; what effect would It have ou your business? — A. Well, I don't know. Of course I could Mtbire men to begin with. If I did, I would have to hire them at less Vagcs. If I thought that really was to be the case I would not hire p\ at all. Q. You would not hire men to fish for you at all? — A. No; I would fittbeui take their own risk. ^Q. What was the opinion of the people of Prince Edward Island, as F'ls you know? — A. When it was passed, of course it was against Ibeni. Q. What was ? — A. That is to pay the duty. Of course when we joagbtfish we had to figure the $2 in. If fish were selling for $5 in Won, of course we had to take the $2 out of that. J. ;-?■ iiS^'-*^ H* / ** .;il ^ , 'i' ■ ■ 1 fc^*i^'"' '' nmK^ ^'^mSKM ,,, 4 (. li^***,*^-! V- -, 4 ;^*^H%4 *;:--'«s.?^^\ Sf'^' ■ " m^J' :),'■ %:''. "■' ' ^•'^i: ^ ./ , W~.. %i y. -■ ^ ■' '': %.r^^' <^- ■•: « t -■%- ■"■'•" \ », . , ' -.' J jt * V .*i ■ • ., ; *. pi.. - . • -L "^ H" m !,« %mr^.- \ m ^ft^^fcs '^€*:^IA '-ij M ■1 tr-^^Sj;- rl 2852 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Suppose the Washington Treaty hadn't passed, and you Lad cQn^ along with the duty, how much longer would it have taken to use nn the business of selling mackerel in the United States from the island!-. A. I don't know ; it is pretty hard to tell that. We are in business aiiii cannot wind it up in a day or a year, espfecially the way I was situateil, because I have to supply my men ahead all the time. If the duty were to be $2 or $5 next year, I could not help it. They are supplied for nest year. The men I have are, two-thirds of them, men with fiunilies, tliu ive right in Eustico. I have to supply them all winter. Q. They are always indebted to you ? — A. Yes. Q. You are satisfied you had to pay the duty when it was paid ?_a, Certainly. Q. Didn't you get it back ?— A. Not I. By Mr. Davies : Q. You have been at Rustico before the Washington Treaty and car ried on your business all the time the $2 duty was paid, and have ear. ried it on ever since? — A.. Yes. Q. Taking the last six jears, have the fisheries largely increased in Prince Edward Island ? — A. For the last six years f Wei!, 1 duu't really think they have. Q. What part of the island do you speak of when you say tlioy haven't? — A. Just where I am. Q. I don't mean your otu business. — A. 1 mean in Rustico. I cin't answer for anything else. Q. Are not larger boats being built? — A. Yes. Q. And more of them ? — A. Yes. Q. That is what I mean. — A. I thought you asked if the citcb had been bigger. Q. I mean that more people have gone into it ? — A. Yes. Q. And more money has been invested in it ? — A. Yea. Q. As to the catch, of course you can't tell what the catch wasl-A, No. Q. I want to show that the fisheries increased, and more money n> invested and more people engaged, although a duty of $2 a barrel wai imposed. — A. At the time the duty was put on it was pretty blue. Q. And for the two or three years the duty remained on, do you meai to say that more people didn't go into it ? — A. I don't think it. Q. Since then there have ? — A. I think so. Q. You don't know what the increase was then, or whether there wi any? — A. No. Q. Would you say there was none ? Could you state that ?— A. 5o I could not. Q. You have a strong interest in this $2 duty, haven't you ?— A have. Q. Have you a large claim, about five or six thousand dollars ?-. About half of that. Q. I have the statement here from the petition in relation to that, is $4,999 marked against you. — A. I am glad it is so much; I thous;! it was about $3,000. Q. When you applied to get the duty refunded, you felt that yi should get it back? — A. Yes. Q. Of course you naturally felt that that should be paid to you ?-■ Yes. Q. Now didn't you buy fish as well as catch them ? — A. Yes. Q. Didn't you buy them with the knowledge that the duty woiiM refunded ? — A. Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2853 (). And you paid $2 more than you otherwise would liave doue ? — A. Yes. I ditlii't buy many. Q. I refer to what you did buy. — A. Yes. Q. Have you thought over this question of the duty, whether the cou- suiuerpays'itf— A. I gave it up long ago. 0. Who do you thiuk paid the duty on the potatoes we shii>ped last vear from the island ? — A. It is no use to ask me that. ' Q. AVbo do you think ? — A. Potatoes are one thing and fish another. Q. I want to see if the same principle does not govern both. — A. It is merely guess-work, anything I should say. {}, We got a price large enough to pay the duty 1 — A. Potatoes are different. There are a large fleet of American fishermen catching mack- erel. Wliat fish we catch is like a drop in the bucket there. Q, Have you studied the statistics upon that point to see ? — A. Th at is my idea. Q. Do you know what proportion of the whole quantity consumed by the people of the United States comes from this country ? — A. I don't know anything about it. Q. Then when you say it is a mere drop iu the bucket you are speak- ing at rar;dom ? — A. I know it. I know there are GOO or 800 sail of ves- sefs. All I know is that when I send mackerel to the Boston market, it is ffbat the American fleet gets that governs our prices. Q. You are getting high prices this year? — A. Yes. {}. Has the failure of the American fleet anything to do with that ? — A, Yes. Q, When the price goes up beyond a certain point, who pays the duty tlieii !— A. Well, that is what I think. If the American fleet catches a great many mackerel, we get a small price. Q, I think you stated with reference to the vessel -fishing that it is about three miles oft" they fish, and chat they flsh inside and outside ? — A, Yes. Q. That is what I supposed. Now, on the boat-fishing we are, I , a little at variance, that is, you and the witnesses I have called. You know Ross ? — A. Yes. Q. He does business alongside of you? — A. Yes; he is a good square \m\\, Q. A man of thorough Integrity? — A. He is an honest man. Q, A man you would believe? — A. Yes; a first classman. Q. Xow, there is another point I want to refer to in this connection. oil don't go in boats yourself? — A. No; I have never been out all iiiuiraer. Q. So that men who actually do go would have a better knowledge the particular locality where the fishing was done than you could ? — .Yes; but I know where the boats are better than they do them- 'lve.s. Q. How do you know that ? — A. Because I am awake and they are sleep half the time. Each one of them may know where he is himself, «t I know where the whole of them are. Q. And you think they don't know ? — A. Each boat may know for liniself, but I can see better than they can. Q. You mean that, looking from the shore, you are apt to form a dif- reut opinion from those in the boats ? — A. Yes. Q. Don't you think that the man who goes out would have a better ipiaioa than the man on shore ? — A. Not as to where they lie. Q. Iioss gives his opinion that nine-tenths of the mackerel caught by leboat fishermen are taken within three miles? — A. I don't thiuk it. m Pm .»*f,'.'# .Mki ,»*■..'■'■«(;>■* ■^ ':V-;«jj .fm " • 1-1 lit ..'^Sl •'I •mm''' ; ' 1. lit 2854 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Alexander McNeil, who is he? — A. He is a good man. Q. He is a justice of the peace? — A. Yes. Q. Of good standing and integrity ? — A. First class. Q. Well, he has been fishing a good many years. He is a fanner aini fisherman? — A. Yes. , Q. He has been actively engaged since 1851, and he saj's the U]\\ caught by the boats are taken (see statement in evidence). — A. That is at Cavendish. Q. That would be correct there ? — A. He has a boat that is not loiistr i than this table. They have nothing but dories and skiffs. Tliey haul their boats on the beach on the rocks. We could not do that with our boats. We have different boats altogether. Those Cavendish men come I down to Kustico and fish in our boats. Q. Then he does catch fish in that close! — A. Yes ; I have no doubt I his statements are true as to Cavendish. It is bolder water, to be ■ with. Q. How far from Kustico is it? — A. Two or three miles. Q. William J. McNeill, the member — you know him ? — A. Yes. Q. He is a respectable man ? — A. Ho is a good man. Q. He is of tlie same opinion. Now, I will take the months of Julv] and August — do you think the fishing is done within three miles in those! months ? — A. I do. Q. Well within ?— A. Yes. Q. Then, in the fall, the boats go out more ? — A. Yes. Q. Is it not the fact that they catch both inside and outside (lurincj the fall ?— A. Certainly. Q. Part is taken inside and part outside ? — A. Yes. Q. You don't know the proportion? — A. No; but generally they out. They expect to go out in the tall. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. About the middle of September, for instance ; is that a time wlioiij they go out or in ? — A. They go off" then — off' shore.. Q. Do they fish inside much about that time ? — A. Not much. Tlii years are different ; but they are always prepared to go out.siile. No. 71. Ipaac C. Hall, of Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, and Wia throp, Mass., fish merchant, called on behalf of the Goverumeiit of tlij United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question. You are a citizen of the United States? — Answer. Yes. Q. YTou have a house in Charlottetown ? — A. A commercial hoiis^ yes. Q. And you live part of the year at Charlottetown and part of tli year at Winthrop, Mass., near Boston, Suffolk County ? — A. Yes. Q. How old are you ? — A. Fifty-seven. Q. How many years have you been engaged in the fishing business ( Prince Edward Island?— A. This is the twentieth year. It will be 2| years next spring. Q. Since the spring of 1858 what portion of each season have yd spent on Prince Edward Island ? — A. I should think about 9 months | the year. Q. Have you been tTiere through the winter so far ? — A. I have spe( six years there pretty nearly all the time — part of the winter. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2855 0, Where did you reside the first year on the island ? — A. Cascum- Dfiiiic. or rather Alberton, Cascmnpeque Harbor. 0, Since then you have resided at Charlottetown ? — A. Yes. ii Xo^? you have been in the fishing business, how have you prose- I i,ii('(,',l it ?_A. I have been engaged, owning and fitting out vessels, and i i)oat fishing, and I have been purchasing mackerel from tliu first. 0. Have you had any stages anywhere 1f — A. Yes. Q^ Where ? — A. You mean the firm ? 0. 1 don't want to ask you as to those that liave been in charge of ifoilrpartner, but how many have you had charge of yourself J — A. I iijvehad charge of three. One at Kustico. q. How long have you had that ? — A. Seven years. Q. What others? — A. One on Grand River, near Georgetown, about [teumiles east of it, on the south side of the island, and another at (jape George, Nova Scotia. Q. When you began to do business on Prince Edward Island, it was [about three years after the Reciprocity Treaty went into e fleet. Was jtlieremiich iishing done then by the inhabitants? — A. There was very [little. It was in its infancy. Q. Did they know how to take care of the fish they caught, to cure Ithem for market ? — A. Ko ; it was sufficient to coiulemn fish in the iBoston market, so far as bringing good prices was concerned, that they Icanie irom Prince Edward Island. That was the case previous to 185S. Q. Do you know how many barrels of mackerel were sent this year Ifrom yourself and your partner to Boston ? — A. I don't know that I can Ifive it exactly. I may approximate it. Only part of the catch has Iken shipped. Q. Do you know what the catch has been of yourself and your part- |Deru])tothe present time — whether it is still in hand or going for- Inrd?— A. Do you wish to ask what quantity I am sliipping or what is Itlie extent of the catch ? Q, What number of barrels of mackerel do your firm take, in the first ', and then what do they buy ? — A. The shipment will probably ^iiiount this year to something like 7,000 or 8,000 barrels. Q. How much last year? — A. Can I refer to memoranda? Q, Certainly. — A. Our whole receipts last year were -ijO.'U barrels in Boston ; about 300 were sent to Halifax ; in all, 4,834 barrels. Q. How much opportunity have you had to observe where the mack- lerelboata fish oft' Prince Edward Island, and where the mackerel-ves- iels fish ? — A. My observations this summer. I have been at liustico a p^eatpart of the time, and I have had a chance to observe the places rtere they fish, and have taken some notice, more than I have hereto- ire, I have been buying fish since I went on the island, more or less, pi have a general idea, but notiung very accurate. In regard to boat- Ishiiig iu Kustico, they fish in the early part of the season quite near 'sliore, from one and a half to two and a half miles, and later in the Mson, when the fish begin to move south, they have to go wide out for tbeni. Q. AViiatdo you mean by "wide out"? — A. From four to eight miles. Q. Take last month, run back to the middle of September or the first kek in September; within what distance from the shore were they flsh- k?— A. We have been fishing wide out. We have caught no fish pitliin four or five miles. Q. You sent Mr. Uavies some mackerel the other day ; how ftir out ^ere those caught? — A. I answered that question before. Q. What has the quality of mackerel been this year at the island ? — -t.;;r; i iTUH-WB* «jr jPri '« A4 iTirt' •n-^. , re- m } ^ i» . ^iwi*i rm^'^n y<,^: „4*l*'' - "*■ )■♦,■*«. 2856 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. A. We liave had some very fine flsb — a few, but the majority bave Itetu l)oor, very similar to 1874, when we got such a hirge catch. Q. The boat catch has been how good this year ? — A. It lia.s bt'iu good — more than an average. Q. But the average quality has been poor ? — A. Yes. Q. Is that usually the case when the boa't catch has been large '.-~\ Well, we never get a largo catch with boats unless they are j)oor ; that is a very large catch I am speaking of now. A very large catch involve, i small and poor flsh. The average quality of the catch has not been good this year, although the quantity has been large. I have at Has. tico ten boats, and we liave taken 1,250 barrels, that is, 12."> to a boat. That is an average. Some of them have got 150, and some down to KKi, -I think the first shipment amounted to 708 barrels. Over G50 of tlieui were poor — number 3. I call all flsh that will go to number 2 tat. Q. You have a table ? — A. I have a table of the percentage of fat anil poor mackerel from 18G8 down to 187G. Shall I read it ? Q. If you please. — A. This is a table of the whole quantity tbat our firm received : Slalement of mackerel received hy Hall, Myrkk .^- Co., Boston, IriGd to 1^(70, inahmt Year. No. 1. No. 8. No. 3. Total. 1 El I8(i8 6, (i39 2, 314.J 2, 885 7.'>(iJ 2, 029j; 2,286 3, 439.i 1, 5!I0 1, 827.^ 1, 380A 3, 6.-i7.i 3, 770 4, &15,i 2, 055 2, 058 7,841 4, 43(14 1, 50l<4 8,238 2, 047 77UA 8, 8!)8 j 1,861 1,474J 6,710 4,189 1,800 6,188 8,019 7, 434J 14,890.4 6,545i !>, 818* 17, 9!l7ii 10, 1.55S 4,534 • 97 75 f' ■in 71 7.-. C3 59 7;i 20, i) 62 ' igon 1870 1871 1878 a) :il i) 11 1« 10 1873 37 41 1874 1875 1876 Q. That table brings you to this year? Now, what proportion of tho,se| were taken in boats and what proportion in vessels? — A. It is pretty I hard to make an estimate without going to the books. I haven't pre' pared myself for it. (J. Y'ou can explain how many vessels you have. — A. Tlie greatestj number we fitted out was in 1871, when I had 8 ve.ssels. Q. How many have you had since that i — A. I don't think I liave badj over two since then. (J. Y'ou can tell in round numbers whether three-fourths or seven I eighths is about the vessels' catch ? — A. Taking the whole time togetber| there may have been one-eighth ve.sael catch. Q. But, of late years, since 1871, would more than seven eiglitbs bej boat catch ? — A. Y'^es, sir; nearly all. There have only been a few ves' sels out since then. Q. Have you been inspector of mackerel on the island? — A. Ycs,sir.| Q. You inspect your own mackerel? — A. Yes. Q. When your mackerel goes to Boston is it required to be inspected l-l A. No. Q. It is repacked and reiiispected? — A. To some extent the peoplft who buy it put it in smaller packages to suit their own convenience. Q. But it is not necessarily reinspected ? — A. No. Q. And unless it is reinspected in tbat way your mackerel would i go into the Massachusetts inspection figures ? — A. No, they don't pulj foreign mackerel into their report. :fc 2 ^ (••>.'. .:/. liilVL' llCl'll lias 1h'|.|i urge ;-A. •oor ; that li involvi'> I s not been re at Uih- » to a boat. )\vii to Km, jO of tlieui 2 tat. ) of fat anil I ty that our \\ inchinin. tioii of thosej It is itrt'ttYl haven't pre- he greatest] I liaveliiull IS or seven! |me togetberl jiieightbsbej |u a few ves-j I A. Yes, sir. |uspeete(l!-| the peopl* renieuce. II wonld nod Vy don't m AWARn OF THE FISIIEUY COMMISSION. 2857 i ' i ■ a , \ z . 1 u -- ^^^1 :• 9 1 r : ^^^1 t^' a ■ 7j i a. ' '- 1 s ; 7) !U , 21 ■ loj: j< ■ 62, i •-It , :ii ^H •J-) ' J,i ^H 37 li ■ 41 . li 27 » I {}. Now, I Lave a.sk('(l you where the boats have fished; I want to ask voii so far as your observation extends whether the vessels fish in the "siiine places as the boats or further out 1 — A. 1 think the vessels fish more ort .shore than the boats do. (}. Have you made any observations this year, or looked to see where tliAe.ssels were fishing? — A. I have been watching the vessels since 1 liave l)een at llustico this summer. Q. You told me of some instances in which you made a count '. — A. That was at Cape George. 1 was there, and from the house 1 counted witli the {ilass some 31 vessels fishing. Q. How far ott" were they 1! — A. Well, most of them were wide out. Itoiiiited three, I think, that were asl considered inside of the three- mile limit. l). Now, I see there is a Mr. Curry, a gentleman, on your islatul, I believe, is not he 1 — A. Yes. (^>. He reports you as having estimated the catch of mackerel in the bay as being one-third inside of three miles and two-thirds outside. Did roil give any such estimate and under what circumstances; and does that corre.spoud with your i)re.sent belief? — A. I recollect Mr. Curry com- ing iu and asking me about the fishing in tiie bay, and I gave him my best jiulgmeut. Q. When was that? — A. Several years ago, I think. My attention lias been called to it here. It was 1873, 1 think. I cannot recollect ex- actly. Q. What do you say about that ? — A. I gave him my opinion to the best of ray judgment as I thought at that time. My opinion in regard to distance is uot of course equal to that of men who have been on the .i||, ion would bo worth much. Q. You were in business on the island at the time the Itocipio^Mtv Treaty ended 1 — A. 1 was. Q. What was the ell'oct of the abrogation of the treaty ujion your business f — A. The treaty was abrogated, I tliink, in I8()(». We \i,l\ ,„ pay duties on mackerel from 18IJ0 down to 1870. From 18«J0 to isiis w,. had a very superior quality of (Isb, as you will see by tho eHtimato I liavo given you here. The prices were high, and we got good (Ish, and were enabled to do very well until the close of the year 1870 or the be^'iimini; of 1871, when the market conj[)lotely broke down and we lost evoiythin;;^ you may say. It was in 1870 that the raid was made on us tlicre tVoni the Dominion Government, and that, coupled with tho fall of tlic niiuk- Orel, was a very heavy loss to us. Then, in 1870 we had a very larjif catch of mackerel, but of poor quality, and, having to pay duties, olir mackerel netted us very little. 1 have an estimate of the exact auioiiiit of what they netted us that year. The net sales of No. 1 were AT.'il in 1871 ; No. 2, 84.81 ; and No. 3, which is the largest portion, *;i.44. TIr. average for the year was $4.01), at which we sold 14,289 barrels. Q. What caused that fall ? — A. There was a very large catch in ls;ii on the American coast, and the market completely broke down at tin- close of the season. Q, They had a pretty large catch the year preceding and a good dial was carried over ? — A. Yes. A large part of the catch of 1S70 was con sumed before our fish came in in 1871. Our prices fell from 8-3 or ffll a barrel down to $7. We had very heavy stocks and it completely cru8he. At wiiat time of the year did the brealc in the prices take phice ? — A. It coiniiionood about the Doceniber of 1870. Wo liad to meet that dis- aster, ami the consequence was tliat in 1871 we had to sell our mackerel at oni'lialt' of what it cost. In 1871 they had a great catch tliere, but tiiis was after wo had free trade, of course. Wo had to meet a very low price, aiul not having the duty to pay, we sustained ourselves and made adoceiit tiling of it. We caught a largo (juantity of llsli. Tlie largest i|iiaiitity ever caught was that year. IJy Mr. Davies : Q, I tliink you are wrong al)out that year. — A. Tlie catch on the American coast was in 1870, the great catch. But tliey also had a pretty large catch the following year, and we had a largo catch also. It fol- lows almost invariably that whenever they have a very large catch on tlie American shore wo get a large part of those same fish the next year. It followed in the same way. Now, in 1874 they had a pretty large catcli, and we had a very large catch. There was not as many mackerel ill the gulf, but they were all inshore, and we made the largest catch 1 ever made. In 1870, last year, our catch was very small. It was the jworest year wo ever had. We had not only a poor catch, but poor prices, as we had to contend with a great catch on the American sliore. We had a small catch and they had a large catch, and the re- sult was that prices were very low, and of course it was a very disas- trous year for Prince Edward Island — as much sons anv previous to 1 i8;i. ' By Mr. Foster : Q. Now, how large a quantity of high-priced mackerel, say, ^o. I's, UilltheUnitcfl States niarket take in a year ? — A. I can tell how many Ikl's. Q, Take it at 820 a barrel, how many barrels would the United States Imarket ordinarily take? — A. It is now very unlike what it was ten jyearsago; that is, the market for mackerel. Then we had a winter [trade, now wo have none. The fact is no business man has now any jfaitli ill a winter warket. Q. What becomes of the people who hold mackerel over usually ? — [A, It is a losing business. It has been losing for several years, For- iDierlir it was not so. Q. You say the market is very different; what has caused the differ- Ifnce!— A. I have no doubt in my own mind it is the very large intro- liliictiou of fresh fish into the country, caught through the winter, and p great production of the western lakes. That is the principal thing. Q. But of the fact there is, no doubt, that is, of the limitation of the mackerel market?— A. No doubt. It was easier to sell 200,000 ten [jears ago than 100,000 to-day. Q. Xow, you take No. 3 mackerel, what would be the effect of a duty |st *2 a barrel in the United States market? — A. We could not catch and ship them there ordinarily unless there was a great scarcity toe, as happens this season. Q. Practically what would become of your business of catching mack- 1 if the duty of $2 a barrel were reimposed ? — A. Well, when a man ins bis head against a post he must get around the best way he can. -"■ •!■..'» [mm Ml*' •■ - 1?»;| 2860 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Ycu are satisfied you could not add the duty to the i)rit'e of the mackerel iu the United States market ? — A. No, it can't be done. Q. How low must mackerel be to have a large quantity tak(!ii in the American market ? At what price does the willingness to purchaso begin to decidedly fall 1 — A. When No. 3 go up over $8 a binrel, ami No. 2 over $10, and No. 1 over $14, the marjiet begins to drop. i|,y consumption falls ofif very much indeed. Q. Now, you didn't answer how many barrels of mess mackerel, or very fine No. I's, could be disposed of at $20 a barrel 1 — A. Well, mess mackerel is a . 3ry small percentage, not more than 3 per cent, of the mackerel consumed. Looking at the papers today, I see we received from 1868 to 187C, of mess mackerel, inclnding No. 1 and No. 2 mess mackerel, we received iu nine years 3,097 barrels in a total receipt of mackerel of 145,980. Q. Can you sell this mackerel in Canada 1 Is there any Cauadicn market ? — A. No. I went through Canada and went through all the cities and large places, and spent a long time one winter. Q. How far west did you go ? — A. As far as Toronto. I sold a few half barrels and kits altogether, a dozen to some parties. 1 thought we could introduce them and I shipped them one or two different lots, T'ley sold a few, a very few, and I tiiually reshipped them to Detroit .,..,i closed them up. The people didn't know much about them, and didn't care much about them. Q. The boat fisheries of Prince Edward Island have increased and flourished very much for the last few years ? — A. Yes, very much. They have good reasons for it. Q. What reasons ? — A. A better class of fishermen. Wlien we first started business we had, of course, to work with green hands. Like every other business, it has tt be learned, and men have to be prepared for it. Then when tiie duties were put on, the best fishermen left us and went aboard American vessels. They could ship from tlie ishuid or go to Gloucester and get good vessels and have their fish go intotlie United States and sell for their whole value. We had no other inaiket, and had inferior men. Now, since we have a free market, these mea have been coining back. The character of the men and their ability to fish has increased very much. So much so that I honestly think yon can calculate the catch of the same number of men now at 25 to 33 per cent, more than it was formerly. Q. To what do you attribute this greater supply of boat fisliernieii and better quality ?- A. These men find they can fish hero. This is their home in many cases. A great many get boats and find tlipyeaii do very well here now fishing, and th'\v stock at home audfisli frointlif shore. Q. Now, if the island were cut oft' from the United States market, what would become of the fishermen ? — A. Well, these fislunnien would probably go back to their old business. I would not want to fish if 1 had to pay tlie duty on mackerel. Q. Your codfish don't go much to the Uuited States market, at pres eut?— A. No. Very little. Q, You cure them for the West Indies ? — A. The small fish are caret! for the West India marVet, and the large fish are either consumed at j home or sent to Halifax. Q. If you were going to pursue the vessel mackerel-fishinjj trow j Prince Edward Island would yon require pogies as a necessary bait!- A. We never think of sending a vessel without pogies. Q. How is it that your boats get along with herring and make fair | AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2861 catclipswhen the vessels can't ? — A. Well, it has been somewhat of a iBVSterv to us all, bnt we make it work. Q. What is the ditierence between boat and vessel flshing ? — A. Well, the boat goes off and comes to anchor and springs up, and thej' com- iiieuce to throw the bait over. By 3rr. Dana : Q. Springing np means coming broadside to the tide ? — A. Yes. They tlirow tlie bait and the tide takes it away, and th. y keei) feeding it out iind gathei'ing the fish aronnd them all day ; and although they may not have a large 1 back, but you would not get 60 per cent, of the value of her on the '''itge. '^ How much do you pay for mackerel to your fishermen ? — A. Do 1^ if,':}^S M ^ 1 !"- V; J ^lli > v^tr :W' >^:-'t'^'wm:' ^^^'" 1 ^ i\ ■:j ..^m^-„:^r''^' It? **!*♦" ■.■T^** '''^■* >A^. 2862 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. you mean my boats ? I pay $1.50 a hundred for their portion of the tish, delivered on the stage. We dress them and do all the work. Q. Let us have the biggest and lowest price you pay them A. 1 have paid within three or four years $2.00 to $1.25. $1.50 is the aver age. Q. You say that is for their part of the fish. What do you mean ?_ A. I find them the boat, lines, bait, provisions, and everything that be- longs to the fishing. They have no expense. They catch their fare and bring them into the harbor and we take account of them. We allow him $1.50 a hundred for half the fish. The other half is ours. You wanted to know how many we take for the barrel. Q. I didn't come to that. Have you a copy of the agreement ?— A, (Produces and reads agreement.) Q. That is before it is cured ?-i-A. That is for fresh fish landed on the stage. Q. Now, being paid at that rate, how much can a man earn in a month ? — A.* In a good season he will earn from $20 to $25; in a poor season from $12 to $15. Q. I don't think I as'.ed you about the size of the boats. If there art boats of different sizes that fish in different ways, I would like you to tell ? — A. We have large boats, with five men to a boat. Q. How long are those ? — A. From 22 to 25 feet keel. Q. How long do they stay out? Do they stay over night?— A. Kot my boats. The men all sleep ashore. Q. What is the size of the smaller boats ? — A. A great many little boats fish all round the island ; some quite small, perhaps 12 or 15 feet keel. Q. Are some owned by farmer fishermen ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you buy fish from them ? — A. Yes. A great many of them sliip their own fish. Q. Through you ? — A. Yes, sometimes. Q. And get the benefit of the market ? — A. Yes. Q. That is getting general. Is that a branch of industry that has been built up since the fishery clauses of the ti'eaty went into effect ?- A. It has been very much built up within the last few years. It has been done by dozens of men that formerly sold us their fish. Q. You have given us a description of what is called half-line fishiiij;; what is quarter-line fishing? — A. That is where the fisherman receives a specified sum per month, and gives the owner one-fourth of the tisli for that sum ; the owner thus receiving three-fourths of his catch. Q. You find them in food ? — A. Yes, everything. They have no ex pense, except for their own clothing. Q. Do you mean that you board them for the month ? — A. We find a building for them, and have a cook-house. They sleep, eat, and every thing. They have no expense. Q. Have you examined the Prince Edward Island statistics at my request ? — A. I have. Q. Have you read the testimony of your partner, Mr. Myrick, as toj them?— A. I did. Q. You know what L. testified ? — A. Yes. Q. How does your judgment correspond with his in reference to t correctness or incorrectness of those island statistics ? — A. I think he j is very nearly correct. Q. Are there any particulars in which you would correct his state ment ?— A. Well, I might if I had the details, but as a general thiug I| would not. AWARD OF THE FI8IIEKY COMMISSION. 2863 Q. Well, there is one particular in whicb, probably by an error either of the reporter or of the printer, there is a considerable difference be- tween his statement and the one you gave me ; what is that ? — A. That is iu regard to hake-fishing. It was placed on the list at 83.50 a quin- tal. Tbat was a mistake of a dollar. Q. Did you call his attention to that? — A. He said it was a mistake. He gave it, $2.50. Q. Are there any hake sounds exported from the island ?— A. Yes. (J, There are no hake sounds down in the book ? — A. They have got down cod sounds. There are 594 barrels of cod tongues and sounds down. He said he had no such thing. Q. You say that is not correct ? — A. Certainly not. I think it is iu- teiuled for hake sounds. Q. Are there that many hake sounds ? — A. I don't think there is such a large amount. Q. What become of the cod sounds ? — A. They are thrown away with the oft'al of the fish. Our cod are mostly small. I never saw a barrel of cod sounds saved on the island. Q. At what do you estimate the exportation of mackerel for 1876 from the island ? — A. Not exceeding 12,000 barrels. Q, Would there be consumed on the island as much more of mack- erel !— A. We do not eat mackerel on the island. Q. In regard to fresh fish : have you much of a market for fresh fish ' tliere?— A. We have a market in Charlottetowrn ; we sell Mty barrels a year there. Q. Has anybody else a market there ? — A. No ; farmers come in on market days and sell fish. Q. How many inhabitants has Charlottetown ? — A. About 9,000. Q. Aud the only place where fish is sold, except from wagons on market days, disposes of fifty barrels a year. Farmers catch it for their own use, I suppose '? — A. I think they do ; they are not a mack- ereleatiug people. I do not sell on an average, iu Charlottetown, five barrels of cured mackerel a year. Q. Any estimate placing the production of salted mackerel at 20,000 for last year, you think, is absurdly erroneous ? — A. It is erroneous ; there i^ no question about it. By Mr. Davies: Q. How do you arrive at the quantity exported from the island ; you have to make a guess at it ? — A. We cannot get the exact amount be- laiise we have no statistics we can depend, on ; we have our exports to go by ; so far as they go they are correct, but they do not cover the whole ([uautity ; there is only 9,000 reported as exported. Q. You think that is not a correct statement, and that it exceeds that aiuouut ?— A. I think there are about 2,000 barrels more exported. Q. That is to say, you are guessing at the amount ? — A. I cannot give the exact amount, but I can approximate very nearly to it; I know what we receive and what our neighbors receive ; I know every man who does any mackerel business on the island, and as I know about ! the number of barrels they ship, I can get at it very nearly. Q. You never set to work to make up such a statement ? — A. Not to I get it exactly to a barrel. Q. You never attempted to do so ? — A. I never attempted it. Q. As to the quantity of mackerel consumed onjthe island : you never I wade any inquiry, I suppose, in the fishing districts to ascertain what Hiiiiiitity of No. 3's the people consumed, or whether it is not the habit iM-^ III iiS^w' ""i^mmmn'fn I il'- ,1 %M '■i M S^L*5 '1 2864 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. of the people to keep some portion of the mackerel for their own con. sumption ? — A. I know something about that because I am familiar with the fishermen on all parts of the island, and also the farmers. Q. Fishermen and farmers ?^A. They use large quantities of herrin;; and a considerable quantity of codfish in all parts of the island. I iiave often heard them say they would rather have a barrel of herring than a barrel of mackerel. Q. No doubt because herring is cheaper ?— ^A. They are accnstomed to eat herring, and not accustomed to mackerel. Q. You would not put your statement against that of a person who had gone round and made an examination ainimg the fanners and lisli. ermen as to the quantity consumed ? — A. If he went round iiinongtlie people and farmers to inquire as to the quantity, I would not ; but my general information would give mo the idea that they do not consume many mackerel. Q. But not having made any inquiry for the purpose, you would not place your estinmte as against that of a man who had made an in(iuiry as to the ^ 2866 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. im Q. Did McDooald use the seine in the Lettie ? — A. No. Q. Wlio used them, and on what part of the coast were tliey used '^ I A. The purse-seine I had with Captain Rogers, of Massachusetts, ill fished along the coast, in the bend of the island, and back and forth round the island shores. Afterwards I had a seine with Cuptaiu Mar. shall. Q. Did he fish round the island ? — A. The year he caught fish he took I them over at Gasp6 Harbor. Q. You say that in 1874 all the fish were ^aken inshore; I moan of I course, a very large part of them? — A. I said the tish were very near the shore in 1874, more so than I ever knew them. Q. Some of the witnesses have stated that there has been a teiuUMicvl of the fish to frequent the shores of late years. Have you noticed tlmtl the fish have been taken closer to the shore of late years than in 1,^,5,3 1 or 1800? — A. I think the fish vary from year to year; I could not exl press a general opinion on that point. I believe the vessi'ls of the islamlj fish nearer the island than the American vesst-ls, and follow ourcoiistl more closely ; I believe that has led to the impression that thf flshinjjiji so much inshore. Q. Were not Banks Bradley and Orphan formerly known as greaa fishing places ? — A. They have not been able to take many tish anywberl during the last three years. The American fleet that has coiue dowul has been a small fleet, and they have taken very few. Q. Are not most ot the American vessels furnished with seines tliijj year? — A. Pretty much all on the American coast. Q. And here? — A. A good many, a large number. Q. You have stated that seining has not been a success with us?-i It has not been profitable either to American vessels or those flsliiuij from the island. Q. But most of the fleet have seines this year? — A. I could notgiv^ the proportion of the fleet which has come to the bay with seines. counted ten vessels with seines. Q. Would you say that one-half of the vessels in the gulf are fiiij uished with seines? — A. Perhaps one-third. Q. I believe you have a claim against the American Goverumeut foj a refund of duties ? — A. Yes. Q. Jt remains there yet? — A. Yes. Q. What is its amount?— A. $30,700. Q. You told Mr. Foster that if a duty was reimposed you would col Rider very seriously whether you would continue in the busiuess?-4 Yes. Q. You made that statement on the assumption that you paid tij duty?— A. Yes. Q. I think it has been explained very clearly that the price of fi| depends almost altogether on the catch ; this is the case to a InrjiiM tent ? — A. To a large extent ; yes. If there is a large catch of macteij prices rule low, and if there is a small catch they rule high. Q. If the evidence given here on the part of British witnesses] correct, two-thirds of the fish taken by American vessels in thegiilfj may say, are caught inshore ; and, assuming that two-thirds of M whole catch in the gulf is taken inside of the three-mile limit, could tj American fleet, if they were excluded from fishing withiu this limj prosecute the gulf fishery for the other third ; would this pay them !-| I think it would be a difficult business to do so, if that proportiou[ correct. Q. Have you any difficulty at all in answering this question ; cofl AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2867 ther come to the bay to flab for one-tbird of their usual catch 1 — A. I nbould not think that thej' could thus do a successful busiuess ; it would 1^ unsuccessful under such circumstauces. Q. You thiuk it would not pay thetn then to come ? — A. Not if they caught two-thirds of their fish iuside of aud were excluded from the three mile limit. Q. Supposing that they catch that quantity within the limits, what would be the effect if tliey were excluded from this limit, aud if, in cou- geqiieiice, two-thirds of the quantity which they caught were withdrawn from the market ? — A. That would depend upon the catch on the Amer- ican shore. Q. You gave one year, 1871, when a great catch was made on the American shore ? — A. Yes. Q, Suppose that the catch on the American shore was not large, and thattliey were excluded from fishing within the limits in the gulf, where, TO will assume, they get two-thirds of their fish, what would be the ffl,.ctl— A. If there was a large catch here they would feel it very niich. Q. Who?— A. They would. Q. Would the price then go up? — A. If there was a large catch here, aod DO catch there, this would be the case. Q. Would the price go up under the circumstances I have mentioned, if the catch on the American shore was not a large one. What would be the effect of this on the fish caught by the island fishermen and forwaitled to the States ? — A. That would most likely enhance the price. Q. So the question as to who pays the duty depends almost altogetlier on the catch, and whether the Americans are allowed to fish within the limits in the gulf? — A. Yes ; the fact is that they take three-quarters of tliecatch, that is the trouble. Some years they have a large catch, aud some years this is not the case. Q. Take the average : you mean to say that, taking what the Ameri- cans catch in their vessels here aud on their own coast, they take three- quarters of the catcli ? — A. I mean to say that the inspection in the States shows that three-quarters of the fish are taken by American vessels. Q. But you cannot state what proportion of this catch is taken in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ? — A . No ; no further than I bear, that this catch has been very small during the last three years. Q. But how is it on the whole — no duty has been levied during the last three years ? — A. That does not make their catch any less. Of course, if there was good fishing in the gulf, aud they had free access ito the inshore fisheries, they would be more willing to come to the gulf jtliau if licenses were required, or if they were excluded from these JDshore fisheries. Q. A number of American witnesses have told me that they desire utiesput on our fish, because this would give them an enhanced price jfor their fish ; do you agree with that view ? — A. No. Q. You thiuk that all who state that opinion are in error? — A. I think |ihey are mistaken. Q. You differ in opinion on this point from every one of them ? — A. I po, I think they are mistaken in supposing that the putting on of a |at.y would give them more a barrel for their fish. Taking it altogether, Mhink that this would not be the case. Q- If you are correct in thinking that a duty would exclude our fish. I /;«r,^*^ '?%'!;. 2868 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. The catch, k\ must it not necessarily encbance the price of their fish ? — A. Notneces sarily. Q. What — if the supply is limited one-quarter, would not this have that effect? — A. If one-quarter of the supply Was cut off, it wouhl have some effect ; but if there was a good catch on the American shore this would not enhance the price $2 a barrel. Q. If the one-quarter thus lacking was made up, and the demand supplied, that would not be the case; but if one quarter of the average supply was taken out of the market, do you not believe that this would necessarily enhance the price? — A. It might liave some effect upon it but it would not enhance the price $2 a barrel. ' Q. You think not?— A. No. Q. Between what prices do mackerel vary in the market ?— A. From $5 to $30 per barrel for the different qualities. Q. What are the causes of these variations? — A. Partly the quality and partly the catch. Q. The consumption remains on the average about the sauie?-A, No ; it does not. It is not now what it was 5 or 10 years ago. Q. Has it been about the same during the hist 5 years?— A. It varies accord it)g to the price. Q. What is the cause of the variation in prices? — A. great measure. Q. Suppose that one-quarter of the catch was withdrawn, would the prite then go up? — A. This would depend upon the catch and quality. j Q. If the catch fell off' one-quarter, would not the price inevitahlygoj up? — A. It would have that effect, of course. Q. Suppose that one-quarter of the catch on the American shore fell cffj compared with the average, would not the price then go up ?— A, It always goes up then. Q. If the price goes up, who pays the enhanced price ; is it not consumer? — A. Yes. Q. And if the catch is large the price goes down ; so it would depem in some measure on whether the catch on the American or on ouruwi shore was large, as to who would pay this duty ? — A. Yes ; and ou thi quality of the mackerel. Q. AH these elements would have to be considered ? — A. Some, yes there is no other market than the United States for mackerel, aud course we have no other market for these fish. Q. I think you left the impression on some minds, at least, that tbi imposition of the duty caused your disasters? — A. Yes. . Q. Was there not another cause for them, which accounted in lar| measure for the failure of your catch that year — the effect consequeii] on your vessels being seized ? — A. They were seized in 1870. Q. Had not that a great deal to do with your difficulties?— A, course. I lost money by these seizures, and, my business being hrokei up, I was not able to trade in Charlottetown. Q. Did not that materially contribute to your difficulties ?— A. Wj would not have failed on that account. We were worth a lari amount of proi)erty, and we could have stood a great many losses li that. Q. But this was one of the causes that contributed, and contributi largely to it? — A. A small percentage of it was due to that. Q. Do you know whether purse-seining has been looked on by fislii men generally as a failure or not? — A. I think that it is not looki AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2869 apoD as a failure altogether. Different opiDions are entertained in this itjjjard. Q. Some tbinlc it is a failure and some think it is not! — A. I think th»t going into this seining is generally looked upon as a mistake. Q. Why ?— A. It is looked upon as an instrnment that may be dis- astrous to the fishing in the future. A great many fish are lost in this mode of seining. A great many fish are tbus caught which cannot be taken out, and they are hence altogether lost. I do not think that this bas occurred here, but it has occurred ou the American coast. Q. What do you say your shipments of mackerel will be this year — (,0(H) or 8,000 barrels ? — A. Yes. Q, What do you think the island shipments will amount to this jyeai'—A. They will approximate between 20,000 and 25,000 barrels. By Mr. Foster : Q, You do not mean that this quantity has gone forward ? — A. I Imeiin the whole shipments. This is, however, a mere estimate. • Q. Mr. Davies has made the hypothesis that the United States vessels ake two-thirds of their catcii in the gulf within the limits, and he asked lyoinvhatetJect, under these circumstances, would their exclusion from tliesebe. if they had a small catch on their own coast, and you say that [this would tend to enhance the price, and of course it would. I would juoff Hke to know whether, on that hypothesis, prices would go up iiulefl- iDitely, or whether there is a point where people would stop buying Imackerel ? — A. Mackerel will not be consumed in large quantities at I high prices. Q. What is the price at which they will stop buying, the quantity Itaken of mess mackerel, purchased as a luxury, excepted ? — A. Large Iquaiitities of mackerel cannot be sold at prices over $S for number Itbrecs, at about $10 and $11 for number twos, and about $12 or $11 for Inumber ones. Q, Do vessels which come to the gulf with seines, also bring hooks and ines ?— A. Yes ; they do. Q. Do you mean to say that no merchant can depend on mackerel flutinuing in demand at high prices ? — A. No, he cannot. The business Itheu falls off. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. W^e have heard of a vessel called the Lettie, which fished on the iniericau coast, of which, I believe, you are proprietor? — A. Yes. Q. Can j'ou tell mo where she fished ou the American coast, and ihether she was successful ? — A. She fished there one year for pogies, ndwas very successful. She got all she could bring. Q. Did she fish close to the shore or offshore ? — A. I think that she pslied pretty near the shore sometimes. Q. That is the only Canadian vessel which you know of as having fished Iteie?— A. I am not acquainted with any other that has done so. By Mr. Davies : I^Q. How much do you pay the fishermen per barrel on shore for their fiackerel ?— A. I have paid them $1.50 per 100 fish. I Q. What is that per barrel ?— A. $3.75. I Q. How much salt do you use for a barrel of mackerel ? — A. It will te about 5 pecks to use a barrel and pack it. Q. What does the salt cost you ? — A. 25 cents a bushel. IQ. When you speak of paying them $3.75 a barrel, you mean all pd— for ones, twos, and threes ? — A. That would be for the average . m^ i;iiy mt. ■-'^^ 2870 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. What does the salt cost yon ?— A. About 31 cents per barrel. Q. And what do the barrels costf — A. On the average, perhaiis 90 cents. Q. What is the expense of pickling and packing, leaving out the cost of the barrel and salt! — A. It would be very hard to tell that. Q. They put the price of packing altogether in GloucestiT at 82, and they say that from 25 to 50 cents profit is made on that? — A. In order I to cnre our fish, we have to put a large gang of men, perhaps tVom i to 15, on shore, to handle the fish, and we have to pay them wages. Q. Would 30 cents per barrel suffice, besides the cost of the Imrrclj and salt, to cure a barrel of nuickerel ? — A. Ko; that would not begia to do it. That would probably take not less than $2 a barrel. Q. In Gloucester they say they charge $2 for packing?— \. Tliatij merely for packing — a different thing entirely. Q. That includes the barrel and salt? — A. I understand tliat;bnt| that is a difi'erent thing entirely. These flsh, which are packed in Glo cester, are already cured; they are merely packed, while our fish cnmei in fresh, and we have to split, gut, and rim them, soak and saU theiniuj hogsheads, and afterward, after they have lain long enough in the salt,! we have to jiack them up. Q. What would you think that you pack them for? — A. I cannot givel you an exact idea on that head ; but 1 would say that the whole expense j would not be less than $3 a barrel. Q. Including barrel and salt? — A. That includes everything. i^. And what is the cost of freight to Boston? — A. About 85 cents,! or about 80 cents, actual freight. The cost of curing depends so iniich| on the catch, that you cannot form an idea with regard to the actaiil cost. It costs as much to cure 700 barrels as 1,700, or there is very littlel difterence in this respect. The cost is about the same in either case,! aside from the barrel and salt. If .yon have a gang of men tocuretisli,| they are there, and you have to pay them wages; you must feed tliem,] and when there is a small catch you have the same expense ou .voiirl hands as when there is a large catch. One year you may be sucecsstnl,] and the cost will be small ; and another year you may not be saceessfiil,| and the cost will then be' very high ; and so no estimate can be luadeia this regard that would be correct. By Mr. Foster: Q. Your vessels were not seized for fishing inshore, but for somei trouble about registration? — A. They were seized ou the ground that I was a foreigner, who had a beneficial interest in vessels tiding the V.o«i lish Hag. J Q. At what figure did you put the price for a bushel of salt f-AJ About 25 cents. I Q. And how many bushels are there to a barrel ? — A. 3i, I slioiil(| think, and 1^ bushels would cure a barrel, pickle and all. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. With regard to this conflict of testimony, which is very great. to the proportion of mackerel that is taken by American vessels iiisi of the three-mile limit — running, as you know, with witnesses troml E. Island, to the extent of two-thirds or three-quarters of their eatcb- do you know whether that has always been the opinion of geutleinel familiar with the fishing there on the island and the localities wlierr this fishing is prosecuted ? — A. I never supposed that it was. I (louo( think that this has been the case, but I cannot tell you what has the opinion in this relation farther than stating my own impression i AWABD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2871 Ijnfcfinir it. T Ra^'6 ™y impression from what I could hear from these iBjciiami learn from ray own observation, ah you see, three or four years jgn; iiiid I pave it in good faith ; but whether right or wrong, of course IthVwas merely the impression which I received. The testimony given *l,pi^ liyftentlemen of integrity and character from the States is very 'dirtcreiit from that ; and the testimony of men from the island, and the masters of my vessels, is right the reverse. I do not think tliat my opiniou oa this subject is worth anything under the circumstances. No. 72. Monday, October 22, 1877. The Conference met. Walter M. Falt, of Gloucester, Mass., flsh merchant, called on «balt'ot'the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot : Question. Where do you live ? — Answer. At Gloucester. Q. How old are you ? — A. Fifty four. I am in my 55th year. Q. Wliac is your business ? — A. I carry on a fisiiing business. Q, What do you mean by that ? Are you a fish merchant, or are you togaged actively in the fishing f — A. V"o have a firm, and send out Q. You have a firm, and are engaged in sending out fishing vessels bf your own ?— A. Yes. Q. Have you been a practical fisherman at any time ? — A. I was eleven 0(1 a half years a master, and other years as a band. Q, What fishing did you prosecute ? — A. Principally cod fishing and it. George's fishing in the spring, and halibut fishing for the femainder of the year. Q, You haven't been doing anything very much in mackerel ? — A. I bver tried that since I was a master, but a month at a time was the longest at any time, and hardly that. Q, How many vessels have you ? — A. 18 now that we handle. Q. They are engaged in what sort of fishing ? — A. Mackerel, fresh Jalibut, George's, salt fishing. Q. What proportion of your vessels are engaged in the mackerel fish- bg!— A. We send ten in the business. Q. Where do they go generally? — A. In the spring, generally south, lownoff New York, and to the southward, then they follow this way ; m is, on our western shore. Q, Do these ten vessels go into the gulf? — A. We had five there this |ear. Q. Have you been sending very long to the bay ? — A. Well, this ia iefirst year we have had so many for the last three years. We dwindled Jowu until we had only one ; that was last year. Q. Have you any knowledge, or are you able to form any opinion khere your bay fishers go ?^-A. Well, they generally go northward to V Banks Bradley and Oiphan, up that way and across to the Mag- Bileus. jQ. Have you been able to form any knowledge, from what you pow, what pro]>ortion of the catches are made within the three-mile nit in the bay ? — A. In all my practice, and what 1 understand from ji) vessels, they practice outside of three miles on Bradley and Orphan, plat the Magdalen 8. 1 Q. Well, in the course of your experience, with your vessels going 'the coast and to the bay, have you been able to form any comparison ^ "^ 'III !S if} M'*f^\ mm 2872 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. in your own mind as to the relative value of the two flHhcrics ?— a. We found, since I have been in the business, that our business iiati buiQ more profitable on our own coast. Q. 1)0 you know what has been done, on the average, in the l)a\ f i mean per vessel ? — A. Well, 1 guess you have the account here lor luv Ann. '' Q. You are a partner of Leighton f — A. Yes. Q. Well, now, with regard to the halibut fishery, how rnaiiy vcskcI, have been employed, and what has been your knowledge oJit .voiirscif! How long have you been at itf — A. 1 followed that, I say, cIcvimi uikI a half years, from the first of April te the last of November; tliat is what I practiced myself when 1 followed the water, to the niiildleof November or so. Q. And where have you caught your halibut ? — A. On what wo tall the Seal Islantl ground, Brown's and Laliave,and in the liay ut' Fuiuiy.its far as Grand Manan, Marblohead Bank, and so on. Q. In your experience, what sort of fishing is it, off shore or within!- A. Well, you can't get any halibut within three miles, nur on the three miles. Q. Will you point out what course you ran when you were halihut fishing, and how near it brought you to C.'ipe Sable Island ?— A. (Keters to map and points out fishing-grounds.) Q. You know the waters from Seal Island toward Cape Sable and Cape Sable Island 1? — A. Yes. Q. Have you ever known in your experience in that fishing, of any fishing for halibut within three miles? — A. No. It can't be got. Q. Let me call your attention to the testimony of a gentleinaii by the j name of William B. Smith, residing at Cape Sable Island. It is as fol lows (Reads evidence of William B. Smith, page i'M of the Britislij evidence, from the question : " With regard to halibut-fishing. Is there I any halibut-fishing carried on near Cape Sable Island ?" Tu the qnes tion: "Do they take the halibut they catch to market salted or freslii" and the answer, inclusive): Now, with your knowledge — yoii say you have yourself fished for eleven and a half years — do you thitik there is | any possibility of that being true? Mr. Thomson. Is that a general answer to the whole question ! Mr. TrescoT. Well, I will ask them severally. Q. *' With regard to halibut-fishing, is there any halibut-fishing car I ried on near Cape Sable Island? — A. Not by British people; theAiner-j icans fish there." — A. That is not the case. Q. "Every year? — A. Every year, regularly" — A. They are to be found there in any such depth of water ; not so near. Q. " What is the number of the fleet which comes there to fish fori halibut? — A. I have seen as hioli as nitie sail at one time. I sliuuldl suppose there was from 40 to (JO sail." — A. There never was that luaDyj in the business in the world. Q. You have some knowledge of the matter ? — A. I have. I kiioffj every root and branch of it ; and when it was at the most it was inl those years that I was going. That was the most that ever was (lone| on those grounds. Q. How many halibut vessels from Gloucester are there do you supj pose ? — A. We ran at the most of any time 31 sail. These don't resortl to these grounds whatever. They resort to Grand Bank, Western BanlfJ Quero, and all such as that. 1 Q. What proportion of that fleet would be fishing about Seal IslaudJ AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2873 Siible and ■ o" vitbin tlH' neighborhood of Cape Suble ! — A. None at all. No one priicticetl that biiHineHs since I lutt it. Q, "Are tlio vesMclH uod tlnherH at other times of the year f — A. I tbiiiktliey are. During the latter part of May and June they llsh for biilibut; tlien they tlHh for eod until October, and then for lialibut." Wbiit do you Hay to that f Do you know of any of the Auierican iiect Ijjliiiijr tor halibut in May and Juno f — A. No. {}. And tlieti for cod until October, and then for halibut ? — A. No. Q. Now you can answer the question whether a man can »ee a fleet catching tiiein from his door. — A. That man never saw tliom. Q. I iiutice, in another portion of this same gentleman's testin)ony, he viiHiisked this question: *' You used to catch halibut in weirs?" and answered, " Yes, in our traps." Yt)U don't know of halibut being cauglit ill neii'H as a practice? — A. Well, he might be just as likely; just as a vbale would go into a harbor, or a black tish, once in a hundred years. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Did you go into the Bay St. Lawrence when you went aboard your- sell?— A. When I was master? No. {}. You never were there at all f — A. I was there as a hand. {}. What years?— A. 1851, 1853, 1854, and 1855. Q. Ill 1851, where did you tish? — A. We went up to the northward, to the Banks, and across to the Magdalens. Q, Yon never fished within three miles? — A. We didn't practice that, bfcaiise the cutters were around. Q. Was that the reason you d dn't flsh within? — A. And also, our master that 1 was with, it was the first he was there, and ho was more cautious probably. Q. Was that the reason you did not fish inshore ? — A. Yes. Q. What was your catch ? — A. We brought home 240 barrels. Q. What was your tonnage?— A. Fifty-ttve tons; it was what they call a pi II key. Q. What was her full cargo ? — A. That was all she brought. Q. What time did you go into the gulf? — A. The latter end of July. {}. And what time did you come out ? — A. We came out somewhere along the last of October. Q. During all that time you never fished within three miles? — A. We fished when we came down from the northward, after the big gale. We went across to Margaree, and fished to make up somewhere about 20 barrels. Q. What time did you go to Margaree? — A. After the big gale, ten I (lays. Q. What time was the gale ? — A. In October. Q. You were ten days in at Margaree? — A. I say we were at Souris la week, and then came across between the island and what we call [Margaree, fishing across that way. Q. Where were you during the big gale ? — A. Up to the island. Q. What i)art of the island ? — A. We came out of Ga8p(5 that morn- jio? the gale come on. Q. It was a northeast gale ? — A. Yes. Q. You were north of the island, on that coast, when you came down |from Gaspe ? — A. I say we came out of Malpeque. Q. You said Gasp6 ? — A. I did not mean Gasp«5 ; I mean Malpeque. |We caiue out of that on a Friday morning, and Friday night the gale Icanie on. It was moderate, and the wind hauled to the eastward, so we Icoiicluded we would go back, but it shut down so thick that we had to m\ off. ,„, - ., „,,vH, ' ., m '$ r . ^■■'»»-»c• • n 1 :'m ^: -"SI 28Y4 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. i r-tf Q. Were yo« out iu the bay all tlio time? — A. Yea. Q. With Priiioe Edward Island forming a lee coast 1 — A. Yes. Q. You rode out the gale? — A. We were under sail — tho same as if* it were to-night ; in the morning we wore and laid her hciul to the southward and eastward until half past twelve o'clock, and tluMi parted at half past five that night, and continued to make our way down the island. Q. What time was the storm over? — A. Not until Saturday night. Q. And notwithstanding this great storm, you came down along the windward of Prince Edward Island without being wrecked '—A. Yes sir. ' Q. Then you went over to Margaree? — A. Then we went to Soiiris and repairecl our damages, and carae out and went across towards Mar- garee and finished up the balance. Q. There you went within three miles? — A. We cauglit some iish. Q. You did go in ? — A. We had the heft of our fish before we went in. Q. You did go in and fish, didn't you ? — A. Well, I suppose if we anchored under the island we were in. Q. What objection have you to mention the fact ? — A. I acknowledge ■we went inside. Q. You took fish in there ? — A. Yes. Q. How many ? — A. I can't tell exactly. It might tote up l,"i or it might be 20. Q. It might be 25 or 30?—A. I didn't say that. Q. But can you say it and tell the truth? If you did say 30 would it be true? — A. No. I guess we didn't get that many there. Q. How many do you say you did get ? — A, From 15 to 20. Q. Do you swear you didn't get more than 20? — A. I would not swear, because I could not bring tliat to my recollection i)erfectly. Q. Those you took close inshore? — A. Well, yes, the same as the rest of our vessels did. Q. Were there many besides your own in ? — A. I could not call tbqt to nay recollection. There night be one or two or there miglit be half a dozen. Q. Were there or not ? — A. I could not say. Q. Did you see any ? — A. I say I could not bring it to my recollec- tion. I know there was some there. Q. Did you see any ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you see them also fishing within the limits? — A. I could not call that to my recollection, who they were. There was English and American vessels there. Q. Will you undertake to swear, or will you undertake to deny, that there was a number of American vessels fishing around yon at the same time, and fishing within three miles? — A. I could not ^ay that. Q, You will not swear there was any ? Have 3'ou any doubt what- ever that a number of American vessels were flvshing around you wirhiii three miles; that they wen^. there, and that you saw them ?~ A. T!in are just as likely to be iu the same position as myself, three, or four, or five miles. Q. Do you say your vessel was three, or four, or five miles !— A. Slie was to and fro, yes. Q. liou admit you took those 20 barrels? — A. I sav from 15 to 20. Q. You took those within three miles ? — A. I won't say we did, nil of them. Q. You said you took 15 or 20 barrels within three miles. Now, yoa j AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2875 $ii!t' 1 -A. We might not have iiifflii to say you did not? — A. You .asked me if I was there at Mar- 'o. laskod you how many yon took within the three iniie limit, and Tiiii said ft'oiii 15 to 20. ]Sow you say you didn't do aiiythnig of the j.j,nl?_A. I don't say I didn't. 0. Didn't you tell me just now you took those within three miles? — ^/iiniuht have answered that. 0. ])iil yoii t*^" tlie truth when you did say so ? Mr, TiJKSCOT. I wish to enter my respectful protest against the style ,1 cross exauiiuation. Mr. Thomson. I enter niy counter-protest against the witness evad- ing plain questions. Q. Didn't you tell me just now, within the last ten minutes, that you ciiu«de the limits? — A. I could imtsay whether we were all the time inside the three miles. Q, 1 don't, care whether you were all the time or half tlie time; but Iioff many barrels will you swear you took within the limits? — A. I I can't say. i). Will you swear to five? — A. Yes. Q. Will you swear to ten ? — A. No. Q. Then you swear poi^itively it was between five and ten, and noth- [iiijjovfr?— A. I would not swear positively over that. Q, How many did you get ? — A. I will swear to five barrels. Q. Five is as high as you will go, after telling me you caught 20 bar- Irelswitbin three ujiles ? — A. No; I said around that place. Q. Will you swear you caught one single barrel outside the limits I around Marga'ee? — A. I could not say that we were at the time three I' miles off all the time or thi-eo miles in. Q. Tlieii your evidence is this, if I understand you: You swear posi- Itively that you took five barrels within the limits; ami you won't swear [tljiityoii took one single barrel outside the limits. That is the extr.aor- (liiiiiry testimony you give now. I ask you, will you swear that j'ou niok a single barrel outside, and you say you will not? — A. I jay I cau isnear. Q. Didn't you tell me — T asked you if you would swear that you |f.iii;:ht a single barrel outside, and you said you could uot? — A. 1 didu't |ijii(lers;anil you. Q. What was your answer? — A. I said yes, sir. Q, Didn't you answer that you could not uiulertake to say ? — X. I [(iiilii't meai! it if I did ; uot by any means. Q, Xow, your next trip was when ? — A. 1853. Q. Wher'ti did you fish then ? — A. On the same gro';nds. Q. Wer.' you msister then? — A. No; I was a hand. All my time in jtbehay 1 was a hand. Q. Did you fish then within the three-miir limit!— A. We fished iu [tl:efall on the same grounds, at Mnrgaree and (Jheticamp. Q. Do you mean to say those were the only places you fished withi i jttie limits— that is, Cheticamp and Margaree? — A. We iisiied up fcue jisiand, on Bradley and Ovphuu and at the Magdaleus. ■A':?f* ■W.-' ■<..,,-«f,ijV^., 2876 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. |!''-C r-A, vpsselj Q. Do you call that fishiog within the limits ? — A. Ko. Q. Then I come back to your Ashing on Margaree and Clipticaiiin Do I understand you only fished withiu the limits at Margaree aud Cheticamp? — A. Yes. Q. How many did you take? — A. Probably about 40 barrels. Q. Now you understand my question, how many barrels did you t^k, at Margaree aud Cheticamp within the limitT? Your answer is 40 bar! rels. Is that right? Did you take oif Margaree and Clieticami), out. side the limits, any fish 1 — A. When we worked across from the Ma"- daleus we fished across outside the limits. '" Q. You just took 40 barrels withiu the limits? — A. To the best of luy kno\k ledgt). Q. Those you certainly did take within the limits ? On thnt occasion were there a number of American vessels fishiug around you could not tell you the number, whether there were more or less. Q. I want to know whether there was a number of American around you. There were vessels ? — A. Yes. Q. Can you give me any idea how many ? — A. I caiinui. Q. Over ten? — A. I could not say. Q. Could you say there were not twenty ? — A. Yes. Q. Will you swear there were five ? — A. 1 should think there was the time we were fishing. Q. They were also fishing, were they? — A. Yes. Q. Now what was the tonnage of your schooner on that occasion !- A. About 90 tons, carpenters' measurement. Q. 8he carried a cargo of 400 barrels ? — A. No, 275. Q. Was that a full cargo? — A. No, she carried about 300 ba. • ; Q. Now during all that time you did not Hsh anywhere arouud uk coast of New Brunswick, Bay Chaleurs, or Prince Edward IsUuiU?-A, No. Q. Why didn't you fish withiu three miles ? — A. All our fishing was on the Cape Breton side. Q. Why didn't you fish along the Prince Edward Island shore ?— A, Because we were not on that coast. Q. You were on the coast if you were on the Orphan Bank. Tliat is I a very little distance from the coast ; why didn't you fish inshore there i- j A. We didn't resort there. Q. Why ? Were you afraid of cutters ? — A. Yes: the large one was | there, and the small one, too, and the saiiing-schooners. Q. What time did you leave the bay that year ? — A. In the latter part j of October. Q. Aud you didn't get a full cargo? — A. No. Q. Do you know anything about the inshore fisheries, of yonrowal knowle* ^ » , '''"''1)1, mm ^'«i til -^.^ i- 1 r^ fz ■''i*;^^-- .^^ ,. .-■Sip** f?J',;t-''>2 Z**''^* .J /.S- i ,Jt^.. -Ci^- 2878 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. that thej' didn't catch any ? — A. Yes. If they had, we would have tried too. Q. I ask you, did you ever inquire of other vessels that had fislud in there and got nothing? — A. We never practiced inside three inilw or two miles of the shore. Q. Now, don't you know that is an evasion of my question. I asked you if you ever inquired of any captains whether they had fished in. side and whether they had got any inside, and you say you luver pnic. ticed inside. I will put my question again. Did you, on that occasion. in 1855, meet any single American vessel that had fished inside ot'tliiie miles along the coast of Prince Edwaid Island, and learn from hei ibat there was no inside fishing? — A. I didn't particularly Q. Then, although Mr. Trescot. Let him answer. Q. Do you want to say anything else ? — A. When we are around among our vessels, we speak and say this: "Did you find anytisl such and so f And they say " No." Of course we don't go there. Q. Well, I presume you don't say '♦ such and so." You give the name I of the place ?— A. Yes. Q. Now, 1 ask whether you put the question whether they had I fished at any place around the coast of Prince Edward Island ?— A. No. j Q. Then, without finding from a single captain that he had tislied in- side on that coast and caught no mackerel, you came away with jiart of a cargo, and didn't try inside, although you had full liberty ?— A, When we came away, we were on the Cape Breton Island side. ^. From where ? — A. We were at Chetticamp and Margaree. It was] in the end of the season, and the mackerel gave out, and we came home, Q. Now you have given the lie to William B. Smith. Do you kuowl him?— A. No. Q. According to you there is no fishing along Seal Island at all *-A,| Not so close in. Q. Have you been there? — A. I have passed to and fro. Q. Have you ever fished titere ? — A. No. Q. Then, as to a ground on which you never fished, you are pleased) to swear that a man has committed perjury Mr. Trescot objects. Q. You are pleased to swear that he has said what was not true when! he said he caught fish there. You swear that his statement is utterlyj untrue, although you never tried it yourself. You don't speak luerdvj of opinions, but you have sworn to it as a fact Mr. Trescot. The witness referred to (William B. Smith) does noij say that he caught fish there, but that he saw them caught. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Now, why, if you have never tried that ground, do you undert;i to say that halibut could not be caught there? — A. Becaiuse it isnotj in that depth of water. Q. What is the depth of water within three miles or two miles oft coast there? — A. I guess you can't find anything more than y\ en it< nine fathoms there. Q. You will swear to that? Do you know that from experience' A. Yes. Q. Have you sounded ? — A. Yes. Q. You have sounded there and found it to be only seven lalboins! A. I say nin^. Q. Now I hold in my hand Admiral Bayfield's map with soundings- Mr. Trescot. What chart is that ? AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2879 Mr. Thomson. This is a survey by Andrew P. F. Shortland, assisted l,y jjjeiiteiiaiit Scott and others. It is one of the admiralty charts. 'jlr. Trkscot. What is the date ? Mr. Thomson. It is 1855. Mr. ro.sTKR. We have one corrected from the latest surveys, in 1876. Mr. Thomson. The soundings will not have changed since then. Mr. Foster. They may have been more correctly taken, though. By Mr. Thomson : Q, Here is ireen Island, where that raan said he lived ; here are, \rit'liiii two miles of the land, soundings running up to 14, 17, and 18 fDtlioins; and here, within halt a mile, is a depth of 10 fathoms. All these are in the very place where the witness said he saw the vessels fiiliiiig. He gives the bearings about southwest by west. Now, you hue sworn that it was impossible for this man to see thesa vessels, whi'li lie swore were one and a halt' miles and two miles away from him. you don't undertake to say, now that I have shown you the distance from Green Island — you don't undertake to say that from that distance bewoiiltl fail to see them if they were fishing there f — A. I say this, there was never that many to be seen. Q. Although you were not there, you undertake to say "that man never saw them " 1 — A. I have been around the ground. I have been about the place enough to know whether there was that many there. Q. Now, have you followed the business ? — A. I followed it from the 1st April to the middle of November. Q And .you have taken soundings. I thought you told me just now yon (litin't iish there ? — A. I know there was not that many fishermen evei ill the business. I am perfectly satisfied of it. Q. How long since you were there last? — A. Seven years ago this season. Q. Of course, you are aware that Smith was speaking of the last year or two, while you hadn't been there lor eleven years ? — A. Why I sjmke Q. 1 don't want to know your reasons; I ask simply whether you know tliat Smith was speaking of what happened a year or two ago, while you admit you never were there for the last eleven years ? — A. 1 know I was not there. Q. Aud you knew Smith was speaking of what took place a year or two ago I — A. I know there is not that many in the business. 1 sup- po.sed lie was speaking of what was transacted in the fishing business. Q. Did you suppose he was .speaking of what was within a year or two ago ? — A. No ; I understood that he had been speaking of what happened to and fro for years, liy Mr. Trescot : Q. Just explain that. You are asked whether you understood that Smith was speaking ot what he had seen in 187'4 and 1875, and whether Toil denied that he saw those vessels there then, or whether you sup- I posed he was referring to the fishing generally? — A. That is what I I referred to. I supposed he referred to what had been transacted in j business for years to and fro. No. 73. Charles H. Pew, of Gloucester, Mass., called on behalf of the Gov- |eniment of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster : Question, You were born iu Gloucester ?— Answer. Yea. .j^'.«#.:-f v^ m ■itl «t ><■>*■'■»» ' ' ■ •' ^''^^ -•' ■ ■ Pirn fi.«:l»' i^Ap^ "it, . M''m 2880 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. How old are you ! — A. 42 years old. Q. You a member of the firm of John Pew & Sons, founded bv! your father — when ? — A. In 1849. Q. I believe it is the largest Arm in Gloucester? — A. I guess it is the largest in the States. Q. What is your business? — A. Owners and fitters of vessels ami dealers in fish and salt. Q. How many vessels have you owned or controlled within tlielastj fifteen or twenty years ? — A. About 20 ; we have averaged about 20. Q. By the way, your father started the firm in 1819; when did ,om go into it ? — A. I went into it when I was 16 years old as a clerk. Theal as a partner when I was 20. He shortened my time. Q. Did you have a brother also in it ? — A. Yes. Q. He retired from it in 1861, 1 am informed ? — A. Yes. Then myi younger brother came in two or three years after that. He is in it iioir.j Q. I thought you had a brother that retired about the end of the warll — A. Tiiat is my elder brother. / Q. Who compose the firm now? — A. My father, myself, and mvi younger brother. William A. Pew retired at the beginning of the war"! My father, previous to the establishment of the busi.jess, went ttshiugl himself as a little boy. Q. Now, what is the principal business of the firm ? What branch !-j A. Well, all are about equally important. We are largely engaged Inj dealing in codfish. Probably codfish is the larger part of the busiuessj We deal largely in mackerel and herring, and also in salt. Q. Can you give us a statement of your mackerel business in the bay] and on the coast of the United States for the past few years?— A. can. It is as follows : i •• s 3 s Q ■M z e m ■ g 1 e 1 t. M w e 1 ^ *■ 1 OJ 'a t > f I .a [ I *^ w •J s i 3 1 1 ' i a a I '9.I0II9 '8(0 joaaqoiiiu JOjjqiHiui 181 p AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2881 •oni«A •BimiiniJ) 'T Si -ri 2?l ? W X ^ — — f <5 X »j ri 7f -r o t^ o ^ IT' sp ■Bsnianoq JO Bimnoj S 51 O gas SI *r o in r^ rs i(^ — -* in ,-s • IT ».-: ift — -^ o 'T ov cc 71 r. rj 51 :s a. •e -ox in « » jj f S iff o •C-oji o r- CI "T ^ -^ X * •I 'OX a 0 •e ox C^ 3> n lO ffJ -^ O n CI ■^ r- rt u? ift , . . » « th r-i tH ei O tC f?i -^ 5i CI « r-~ oT i "•" cT xT \o <-♦" ■V X « irS es 'G ox •I -ox X If! ^ -^ CI a> ffi CI c» -^ rt -^ i- (N »0 ■V in CI l^ ' '9.101X9 '8|rt.i.irq I 5 JO jaqtuuu [u:jox i «o CI <-• X CI Q eo Ci C* ^ i^ •»• X CI « ic rt X irt w X cfcrroM'ocfro I ■ jojofimuu i«;ox ^ (C p "1« to M t- X ri 5i «p p X 'X) 0> CI to IQ O CC rH 181 P O ^ CI W* *rt to r- r- t" (" t- r- r- XX ;j X X X X Ct i -r i o a £ S « B ©ig •— . "-2 gPQtCU I ■ .'1 -«?ll #^' ?«*•-:«»:■*-!*' J. 1<. .Jl 1 P m P* •^ *j i\ Eir i -»• ^ ii« i«n J ;ii «J» »• •"'': ■■7:: -« M-tJgB^ffiM ^:^:f:^ fJSffiJ^STlf'!? ^ -.pH fciEJ(w^;i'^;.;^^ III [liiii 1 "^ '■' ■ ■ /'M 1 K^ Hp K^l .««r^^' 2882 AAVAKD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. Those figures give what our vessels caught. Tiiey dou't givi; wimt we l)urchiised outside of what the vessels caught. Q. ^Vheu you speak of tiie cat(;h of your vessels, have they l)L'eiiiii the habit of buying mackerel here ? — A. No. Q. Hut your lirni has bou;,ht uiackerel in Gloucester ? — A. Yes, (^>. Whicii has been the most profitable to your firm, the. hay ti.shin r or the fishing of the United States shores? — A. Oa the I'aited fStates shores. (^>. IJave you any statement of the result there carried out— the pro ceeds '. — A. No. ii,. Will you give me some illustration of the amount cleared by your vessels on our shores? You gave me one remarkable instance ?1-a, There was one schooner in 1874, 1 think it was. She cleared ■jSiiiiii, which was divided among the owners. Q. After the crew was paid ? — A. After all expenses. Q. AYhat did the sharesmen get that year f — A. The sharesinen made I think, over $900 each. ' Q. It was done within what time ? — A. The latter part of June, Jiih, August, and the early part of September. Q. Where was that mackerel caught ? — A. The large part of it was caught off Jeffrey's Bank, just in sight of Gloucester, something likoi:' or 14 miles off. Q. How many barrels of mackerel realized that amount ?— A. I tliiiik somewhere about 1,400 or 1,500. Q. What was the quality ? — A. Y^ery fine. Q. You gave me the amount of the last haul that vessel made in tliati year ? — A. It was about 400 barrels in one haul of 10 days, I think. A few barrels short of 400. Q. This was seining "{ — A. This one vessel was. Q. Most of these catches on our shores have been made by seining! A. For the last four or five years, from 1872, the largest part has been! seining. Q. IIow many vessels had you in the bay this jear — 1S77 :'— A. Wej had 5 go seining, and 4 of them were at one time in the bay. Q. l)id those which went into the bay go ek'H ; T)?! f^all. inolasseH ; II! gall, kerosene; (J8 lbs. cotl'co; '2't lbs, tea : '>4 lbs. lard ; I'.H lbs. bnttor ; 1 bbl. pork ; ^ doz. mackerel lilies; l"* bbls. flour ; (5 bbls. beef; 2 feet wood, and other siml'r stores, etc ■Slit"-:'' id na yds. ji-i 0. C. duck.at :Uc .''.(i 2-2 Coal 1-i 75 Towiii),', 8-J ; railway bill,$27.!K) :?1 '.to lllocks, etc., !!!;■)..')."> ; stores, etc., in bay, Sl'J.:?!* 47 8."> Kxpenso on trip, $2i>.07 ; skljipersliip, .SGG.dC) 87 2:1 liiiiivav bill, §122.7.''); ancbor, etc., i?2.;J(» 25 05 jlla(ksi'iiit hing, $1>.14 ; rigging, .$2(1.8.-. 21) l»'.» Oiliiinsi 8".2r> ; sailniaking, $i'J4..''>8 201 8:5 Tiiiwans 81~''*'^ painting, i5!.->().(i'./ 75 12 SpaiiuiiluT's bill, .fs ; teaming, ,iJl 1.83 ID 8;{ 1,245 GH Cu. Br tloiir sold on trip JSliO 0(1 Shmoftrii) 832 Oi» Sundries (split wood, tar'g and scraping, etc) 13 G3 Lo^snlltl•il» 3()i) 9(i 1.245 G8 (^1. Ill making' this up, did you include anything for the captain of the [vessel !— A. Yes. We make up the loss as is done in corporations ; that is, the captain, whether interested or not in the vessel, has his share and [wages, which are always c^arged in. This is a separate account from I that of the voyage, altogether. Q. When you say that a vessel has lost so much, do you include in Jtliis loss, iuterest on the cost of the vessel? — A. No. That simply iu- Iclades the cost of running the vessel for the trip, with regard to outfits |and outstanding bills. Q. Is insurance included ? — A. Xo. We never insure save very little. |We cannot attbrd to do so. Q, What number of vessels had you in the bay in 1875! — A, Two. Q. What number of barrels of mackerel must a vessel take in order komake a voyage to the Gulf of St. Lawrence paying ? — A. Do you mean [for a vessel not employed in other fishing ? Q. Yes. If you decide to send a vessel to the gulf, how many barrels Bust she bring home in order to make the trip profitable ? — A. That ^ould vary some. I have known vessels that got 600 barrels which did fot pay their bills ; and then I hav6 known vessels which got 300 barrels hat did pay them ; I should think that it would take about 400 barrels I pay the bills of a vessel. Q. Without any compensation to the vessel owners ! — A. That would ! before the vessel paid any profit as a vessel. Q. What is that reckoning the mackerel to sell for? — A. Well, ones [ouldhaveto sell at $15, twos at $10, and threes at $8— $7 or $8, or hereabouts. Q. Generally speaking, how much value do you attach to all the fish- ^ies iu the Bay of St. Lawrence as a business to be pursued — I mean Msheries anywhere oif the British coast ?— A. I do not think that any Mhemare of any value at all. Q. Which costs the most — the mackerelers that go into the gulf or pliii M-^^i m ■■■■■ -"T.ss^<^^s^!'^ I 'itf ki, -■ '^^ 15,; ■■"-■ .;£;'ii«|5^tK5 ■'*>;■ ■■■»). ■m.'-^*', 2884 AWAKD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■i^ftil those that fish on our shore ? — A. The hitter generally an- tlie liMxt expense. ii,. I suppose that a PH'iner is more expensive than a hodk aiidlinf. vessel ? — A. Tiie gear of it is; the gear is what costs must— imr th,. vessel. ii,. What costs the most, the manning of a seiner or of a liook aiM lino vessel 1 — A. The seiner costs the most, owing to the vahit! ot the seine. Q. Does the extra cost of the seine used on the shore make ii|) loi th,. extra cost of the bait used in the gulf ! — A. The seine costs the most— imt the bait; but taking the trips on the average, going to tin' i,'iilf costs the most. Q. Can an average vessel be run so that a person buying' a slmu ::. her will get interest on his capital — considering this matter lor a iiiii.i. ber of years ? — A. Do you mean taking such a share haphazard, or am way ? Q. Not haphazard ; but take an outside owner who buys an interest in a vessel ; can he make money by buying such propcrfy .'—A. Von cannot get outside owners to buy such shares now. Q. Why? — A. Because they have most always lost what they have I put in. Q. How has the business of companies which have gone into the tish ing business prospered ? I do not refer to Gloucester fishing lirms; but I how have corporations, which have gone into the fishing business, m- ceeded ? — A. They have been unsuccessful. Q. You gave me an illustration of one? — A. That was in KSaleiii; think they called it the Chincoteague Fishing Comi)any. This was aiil institution got up to assist people to go into the fishing business in b;t | lem by Gloucester people who moved up there. Q. in hopes of restoring the fishing business of Salem ?— A. Tlieyl wished to build the place up, and they represented that by earrviiigouil their scheme, money would become plentiful in their streets, tiieietnil) stores would tiourish, &c. ; but they failed completely in their uiuler-| taking. Q. Gloucester people up there started a corporation in conuectioa| with the fishing business ? — A. Yes. Q. What became of it? — A. I think they subscribed, and put ijj $30,000 and bought parts in several fishing-vessels — that is, the Sri that went into the affair bought the vessels, and the outside owners pul in $30,000, and took parts in some five or six or eight ditl'erent vessel^ I think that when they divided up they got back about L'5 per cent. ( what they had put in, without deducting interest or taxes or anything else. Q. On the winding up of the business? — A. Yes. Q. n>id they have intelligent and decent people to carry on the busi uess? — A. They Avere successful in Gloucester, and were men whocaj ried with them when they went up there $15,000 or $20,000 or $:'i5,t cash capital, or capital so represented in vessels and material. Q. How are your Gloucester vessels, which are run by tishiii<: tirnij owned ? — A. Firms as such cannot own them, save as individual pai^ ners. Q. The registration has to be made in the names of the iudivid members of the firm ? — A. Yes. Q. Do the skippers usually have an interest in the vessels?— A. >l as a rule, but a great many of our skippers own shares in our vessels.! Q. Do you keep a separate profit and loss account for the vessel f AWARD OF TirE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2885 .how tli»3 n'siilt of running her us distinct from tUo rest of the busi- ji,.s,sf-A. Ves. (), Then von know whether your vessels, iia sueli, make money or noti-A- Ves. (). How is this? — A. Our own vessels up to this last year have gen- eiiilly paid. Q, Do vi»u mean n|) to 1877 ? — A. Up to 1877; yes. In 187(» they iiiiid. tliougli not very much, but up to that time they have paid as ves- {). What has been about the ])ercentage on the average? — A. Some- limes tlii'.v have i)ai(l very largely. I hardly know how to answer that niiestioi), but some years 1 know they have paid 2.") per cent. Q. Wliat was that doing ?— A. That was during the years of the war. (> I;; what business ? — A. They were employed in diU'eront branches of the business — cod-nshing and mackereling. il Vou have imported salt very hugely ? — A. We were for many years tbioiily salt dealers there, and we have imported salt for 20 years. (^1, That has been a very large part of your business!? — A. Well, no, Dot 11 large part, but we have done the larger part of the salt business there. NVe have sold on the average perhaps 000,000 or 800,000 bushels a year. (I Have you obtained the prices of salt for a series of years? — A. 1 have, since 18(10. {), Will you give them ? — A. In 1800, the average price was $2 a hoL'slioad. (^>, What prices are these? — A. Those at which we sell. (]. To anybody that comes for a barrel ? — A. No; but wholesale. In 1800, the average price was $2 a hogshead, measuring 8 bushels ; we never weigh it, but we measure it. In 1801 and 1802, the price vvas also about $2 a hogshead ; in 1803, it was $2.25; 1804, $;};j; 1805, -SO.oO; 1800, a25; 1SG7, S4; 1808, $;ii ; 1809, $2J ; 1870, ,«!2| ; 1871, $2;^; 1872, >2L'j; 1873, 82i; 1874, 82.25; 1875, .5(2 ; 1870,81.75; and 1877, Slij; making an average price of $2.70, for these 18 years, for a hogshead of .^meiisured bushels; that is, in American currency. By Mr. Davies : Q. Including the duty? — A. There is no duty on it; it is in bond. During the years from 1800 to 1800 the prices include the duty, which I think was taken off in 1800 but this did not go into operation until 1867, though we had the privilege of procuring our salt on board of the vessels in bond, while salt obtained on shore was charged the duty. By ]\Ir. Foster : Q. During the last two years, the price of salt has been very low ? — A, Ves; it is low now. Q. Your firm have been large buyers of lish ? — A. Yes. Q. It has been the larger part of your business — buying fish from vessels?— A. We have bought more than we caught. Q. Do you buy mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. Describe how you buy them on the American coast when a vessel oiuesin with a trip? — A. We go to the wharf and buy the lish as the tip runs, paying different prices for the different numbers. Q. Is there competition in this respect between the different firms ? — There is between the different buj'ers; the competition generally mes from outside firms. The firms which have vessels generally pack lieir mackerel. Q. This is after packing ? — A. No ; not always. It depends on the '%f.-^: m^^^ir< " -Ik ^if^^i ,:,■ .vij m -^r***'' 1." fi ; -u^-!"-- '■:^'^ *>. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) A 1.0 I.I M 2.2 2.0 1.8 1 1.25 1.4 III '•^- -< 6" — : ► Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 ;: States at $4 ; but we do not consider them at all. Q. Their price current in Halifax is higher than the price at wiiidi they can be bought in Gloucester I — A. It is higher than we can sell tliem at to the retail trade. Q. Have your vessels been in the herring business ? — A. Yes, more or less. Q. Where have they gone for them ? — A. To Newfoundland, the Mai: dalen Islands, and Grand Mauan. Q. Have they ever caught them in Newfoundland ? — A. No. Q. Have they gone there prepared to catch them ! — A. No. Q.. They have bought them ? — A. They have always carried mom there to buy them. Q. How many vessels have you had go to Grand Manan for herrint;! j — A. We have always had 2 or 3 go there in winter for them since ImIH or 1870. I am not sure which, but I think since 1870. . Q. Have they bought or caught them there ? — A. They have always taken from $1,500 to $2,000 in American currency, to get a cargo, with j 3 or 4 hands. They have carried no fishing gear and they were always supposed to have bought the herring. They always rendered accouutj of them as being bought. Q. They went there without preparation to fish ? — A. They boiiglitl them undoubtedly. Q. And they left money behind them ? — A. They carried money, and | that they used it on their voyage I have no doubt whatever. Q. You have no more direct knowledge in this respect?— A. I have! their bills, which come from the men down there, who made out tliej receipts. I Q. What has been the cost of the herring which you have bought in j Newfoundland and Grand Manan 1 — A. When they first went to New-i fonndlaud, which was, I think, in 1800, to Fortune i3ay, they used topav 6 shillings or $1.20, in gold, a barrel. We used to have them carry parti gold and part trade — that is, we used to fit out vessels to po there andf we used to estimate the price at $1.50 a barrel, and take trade euoiifrlij to amount to $1.50 a barrel, and always gold enough to reach the saniel figure. We used to use trade if we could, and otherwise we used gold.! Q. They cost $1.20 a barrel ?— A. Thft is $1.20 in the first place.audi over $2 during the last few years. Last year 1 think that the price Piuj $2 or $2.50 per barrel— 10 or 12 shillings. j Q. Have you bought herring which were caught on the United State* coast? — A. Yes. L Q. How has the quantity which you have purchased there couiparedl with the amount which you bought in Newfoundland and at Grandl Manan ?— A. It has been smaller than the quantity which we have bougutj in Newfoundland and at Graml Manan and Magdalen Islands. Q. Have you purchased both frozen and salt herring f— A. Ves, AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2889 (). Toa have also been in the cotl fishing hiisiness f — A. That has been ;be principal part of onr flshinff. Q. If you compared your cotl and mackerel fishery, what proportion fftulil you say is cod and what proportion mackerel i — A. I have the fimires. Well, the mackerel would be a very small part of it. y. Are the figures on the table which you have put in f — A. ifes. il About what proportion would be cod, and what mackerel ? — A. Itie cod is over two-thirds of it. Q. Wbicb has been the more profitfible? — A. The cod always. (^, What do you say about the comparative expediency of fishing for 0x1 nitb fresh or with salt bait on the Grand Banks ? — A. That is a ]iretty bard and ditticult question. I can only answer it from our expc- nence with our own vessels. Q. I only want your general idea respecting it ? — A. Well, I think tbai if tbe vessels do oot use fresh bait, and do not make a practice of it, they will do just as well with salt bait; but if part of them used fre.-h bait, tbe whole of them have to do so ; that would be my judg- tUCDt. (). I meant to have asked you, before we passed from the herring business, whether anything is done in the exportation of herring from tlie United States ? — A. We made one shipment, I think. Q. Where J— A. To Gottenburg this last spring. ^ (). Others began the business in 187G ? — A. Yes ; the year before. Q. Are tbe herring which are exported caught on the United States $liore f— A. They are caught both there and in British waters. I should uv that one-balf of those which are exported are c t(t l.'iu fathoms of cable every year for a vessel that is following the lishin;.' right along. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : ' Q. Where are theymside? — A. lu Boston. They are spuu ami arp made of manila. We do not use chains at all. By Mr. Foster : (i. Your business expenses cover the period when there was as well as when there was not a duty on flnh f You did business previous m. during, and subsequent to reciprocity, and since the Treaty of Wasli iDgton, and 1 want to know whether, in your judgment, if the duty oi I $2 a barrel were reimposed on mackerel coming from the provinces iiitn the Anierican market, it would come out of the provincial flshermeii or out of the people of the United States ? — A. It would come ont of tlic provincial fishermen, I should say. Q. How near prohibitory would a duty of $2 a barrel, put on alii grades of mackerel, be found ? — A. I should think it would destroy all the profit and make their business unprofitable. It would tend that way. Q. What would be the effect of a duty of $1 a barrel on provineiil herring ? — A. That would be total prohibition. Herring do not some times sell in the market at over $2.50 a barrel. Q. What has been theellect of admitting herring from the proviiioesj under the treaty as to the herring business 1 To what extent has tliej business of sending herring from the provinces to our market giowiij up since the duty was removed ? — A. 1 think it has increased. Q. Was it A ery large or was there any of it when the dnty was oii!-j A. I think it was then very small — there was hardly any of it at tliati time. Q. Have you vessels engaged in the halibut tishery ?— A. Ves; 'jutj only incidentally. The vessels that tisli for cod on George's IJanii ahvavsj bring in more or less of halibut. Q. Fresh or salt f — A. Fresh ; the sidt halibut comes from the Haiikj Q. This has never with you been an exclusive fishery ?— A. No. Q. How many vessels go from (Gloucester to catch halilnit ?— A. Tlie deet this year, I think, numbered 31 vessels. Q. From your own knowledge you do not know where tiiose vessels go; but, speaking from report, where have they gone .'— A. Otlatc years they have gone off into deep water off the western edge ot th( Grand Bank and to the southern part of Saint Peters's and Qmrft' Bank as it falls oft" toward the gulf. The fishing firms always folio' seiierallv AWAKD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. •2891 where tlie vessels fish, in order to know where tliey go antl to keep uatch of the voyages. 0, Have you known of any considerable number of them going in the Tieiiiity of Cape Sable or 8eal Island f — A. I never heard of any going there. Q, What does it cost to build a lishing schooner at Gloucester by the on '—A. I think that a schooner of 100 tons, old tonnage, would cost luint •JiT.OiW or $7,200. {}. Old tonnage is carpenter's measurement? — A. 100 tons old tonnage ffliild average from 66 to 70 tons register. {}. Vou thiitk it would cost over $70 a ton f — A. Yes ; we built three vessels this last season, and I think that they cost us about that. (}. What do you include in the cost of the vessel ? — A. EJverything, tsckisive of the lishing-gear — cables, anchors, and all those things. (J. Can anybody get this done any cheaper than yourself! — A. i do DOt know about that. (}. >'o oue has more facilities for getting it done cheaper, of course. lloff does the character of the vessels built in Gloucester for the Glou- cester fleet compare with the fishing- vessels built in the provinces ? — A. Ilie former are better than the latter in every way. Q, Explain in what particular? — A. They are better built aiul better modeled, and their material is better. Q. And what mf^terial is so used up here ? — A. I do not know, but it L«8ome soft wood or other. I never inquired much about it. Q. Could you estimate the ditterence a ton between what you should appose it would cost to build a mackerel- flshiug schooner here and sDch cost in Gloucester f I do not mean built here ; but suppose a ves- sel was built in Gloucester as they are built here, what would this cost here!— A. I do not know. That would be a pretty hard thing to tell. 1 do not think that you could get a man fhere to build a vessel in that »ay, i). What has been the conditions of fisliing towns in Massachusetts, aside Iroin Gloucester ? — A. I think their business has decreased. Q. Name these towns as they occur to you ? — A. 1 think that Man- clifster, the town nearest Gloucester, a great many years ago, had from lUo v.) vessels which went to the Banks, but now none are owned there. Beverly used to have, I think, about 50 vessels, which number is reduced 10 about 20 or 128. Marblehead used to be a very large fishing place ; I iti'uktbat at one time from 00 to 70 vessels were owned there ; 1 think ikat originally this was the largest fishing place in Massachusetts ; but Mw its lishing business has almost entirely gone. Q. What is Marblehead doing now ? — A. It has gone irtto the shore linsiiiess. Plymouth used to be a very large fishing place, owning from * to 70 vessels; but this number now has fallen off down to 20 or 30, Itliink. The business of these towns has decreased all round, with the ttceptinn of Provincetown, which has held her own ; they have there Ne tisbinj' their principal business altogether. I think that Province- ji«»nl)as held her own, but all along the other smaller towns have lost put all their lishing busiuess, which has become centralized mostly in loacester. Q. Has the fishing business of Wellfleet increased ? — A. No ; she has it her cod fishing busiuess, and now only follows the mackerel busi- ss. 'Hon mean by fishing business, anything I— A. Yes; anything iu * shape of fishing. Q. Both cod and mackerel ?— A. Y'es. ' « ■;(!< ■'I't'-'fl' 2892 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMIHSION. Q. Tlift {general result is that as Gloucester has increasod the other fisliinp; places have «leciea8ed ? — A. Yes. Q. If you caunot make money in the fishing business in (iloucoHtpr, is there any place on the continent whore it can be so made f— A. Xu; if it cannot bo made there, then it can be so made nowhere, Q. Yo)i have all the a|)pliance8 necessary in this connection .'—A. Yes. Q. And you know your business .' — A. Yes. C^. You have said that your vessels have doAe well up to this year, and that sometimes they have made as muoli'as 25 per cent.; iimlij would like you to state more fully the business which your vessels have done and the way in which they have made money. — A. We never, with my father, went anywhere except on our own shores ; and be always, 1 think, from the time he commenced business, nnule a great deal of money in the fishing business; but we only went on our own shore exclusively, and have only taken the bay fishery and the mack erel fishery as incidental. We have done very well, for the reason that' wo have been on our own shore when other vessels were in tlie bay, when the bay fishery was followed more largely than is the case at | present. Q. Your firm is undoubtedly the most prosperous and the larjjest in| Gloucester ? — A. 1 would not say that. Q. Js there any doubt about it ; there is no doubt about it ?— A. We| are called so. Q. Did you have a brother who went out of business a few yearsi ago ? — A. Yes ; he went out in 18(»5, 1 think. He was the one who! went out of our firm in 1861, when our firm dissolved ; he then weutl into business by himself, and was in business in 1802, 1803, and I8i)4,| and 1 think he went out in 18G5. Q. Was he by himself? — A. Yes; he was for four years l»y hiindi,| and then he retired altogether. Q. I want to know whether you, yourself, would not have l)een betterj off at the present time if you had followed your brother's example, aud retired in 18G.J f — A. Yes ; I would then have been better otl' today. By Mr. Davies : Q. What did your brother retire on, or withdraw from business on !- A. When he retired from our own firm ? Q. Yes.— A. I think on something like $25,000 or $30,000, or therej abouts. Q. What share had he?— A. One-third of the profits of the bu.siiiessJ Q. Exclusive of vessels ! — A. Yes ; he owned part of the vessel.", al^ of which were mackerelers, and he took his stock. Q. During how many years had he been in the business ?— A. 1 tliiiibl he went into it in 1853. Q. Q. Q. And he retired in 1861 ? — A. From our firm ; yes. W^orth $30,000 or $25,000 1— A. Yes. Your firm owned about twenty vessels ? — A. Yes. What would be the average price of these vessels ? — A. This yeaij Q. Well, yes. — A. Values have gone down so much that it is almoj impossible to select an average value right along ; but tliis year thesf vessels would be worth, perhaps, a little Ir js than $5,000— perhap' $4,500 or $4,800. Q. All round?— A. Yes ; that would be their average vahie. Q. This would be about $100,000?— A. They cost us more. Q. Did they cost you $150,000 ?— A. I think so. Q. I suppose that you have large establishments there besides f-J Yes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2893 Q. Wharves, &c. f — A. We have four wliarvcs. 0. 1 8iipi><»'*^' yo" have a quarter of a iiiiliiun iiivestoil in them ? — A. That would be a huge estimate. y, Would $liOO,()U(» be a hirge estimate ?— A. I think they cost us nearly tliat. y. Vou s|)()ke of a number of vesselH engaged in the macker«'l bnsi- aess; I understood you to mean that they were exehisively halibuting ? — i, Vps; what we call fresh halibutnig. (t. 1 understand from the evidence we have had that there are other reiisels wliieli are engaged partially halibut and partially eodtishing ? — A, Those are vessels which go cod-tlshing and catch halibut on their voyages, in IJank vessels. \}. The number 31 you mentioned does not include these other vessels uliich tish lor halibut and cod promiscuously? — A. No. Q. Vou could not give any idea as to how many are engaged, more or lessjii halibiiting? — A. Catching them on their trips? Q. Yes.— A. Well, about 100 sail do so. {}. Yon, of course, never went halibuting yourself, and you do not know where they catch their lish '! — A. I suppose we have accurate iDfnrmation on the subject. Q, You personally never went on a hcalibutfishing voyage :' — A. No; save once, when 1 was a little boy and did not know much about it. (J. Mr. Foster asked j'ou a few (ptestions about the losing of anchors, I and as to whether this ought to be charged to their voyages; Cleorge's iBiiiik, 1 understand, is the place where most of the anchors are lost ? — A. Most of the anchors are lost there at certain seasons of the year; yes. More are lost there in February and IVIanih tiiau is the case any- 1 where else. Q. And a great many vessels would be there in February and March ? — I A. Ves; from 100 to l-'-5 sail would then be there. Q. And when they lose anchors they lose cables too ? — A. You can- lotlose an anchor unless you lose some cable, of course, with it. Q. Are not more lost on George's Bank than iu all the rest of the fish- I eries put together ? — A. No. Q. AViiere else are they lost so largely ? — A. On the Grand Banks ; I we also lose them very largely in the bay. Q. Whereabouts is this theca.se in the bay ? — A. We lo.se them around I the Magdalen Islands, where our ves.sels usually tish. Q. You were speaking of a vessel from which j'ou bought some mack- |erel tills year?— A. Yes. Q. What is her name? — A. I am about sure that it is the Harriet. (^ You do not know, of course, where they caught these tish ? — A. |Tes; it was south off tlie coast of Long Lsland, and off that way. •i'. How do you know that i — A. The master told n>e so. 1 bought I tliem myself. Q. Where is she registered ? — A. In the provinces. Q. Dill she take these fish off shore ?— A. She took them off Long Island, ISlieweiit south fishing; she came to my wharf to be fitted out. I Q. You do mean to say that she caught them near the shore ? — A. No; jlthink she got them from 8 to 10 miles from the shore, where our ves- Jsels usually tish. Q. You have expressed an opinion about the duty ; are you a pro- |tetioiii8t or a free trader ?— A. I am protectionist. Q' Is the free admis.sion of fish into the United States an injury to Ijonr fishermen ?— A. Yes ; I think that it is. . J- I' ■»'! i1' ffi !tU^ 2894 AWARD OF THE FI8I1EKY COMMISSION. ill lish. Q. Wby is it so f — A. 1 tbink that it iluvelops thu Nuva Scotiii ery, and makes for its a rival here. Q. That is a beueflt to us; but why is it an injury to you .'—A-.B.' cause if your ilshery is kept down, the men engaged in it will coiucuii from the provinces and go in our vessels. I think that tho hxTgct un of your best skippers learned their trade in American vessels. Q. Is that the only injury it is to youT— A. Well, the only iniurv-| yes ; only to have a rival in business is always an injury. Ii a luuu iiasi a clear field, he always does better than if he has a rival. Q. vVhy ? Does this alfect the price at all 1 — A. What do you mean I by price ? Q. The price you obtain for your (Ish when you sell them ?— A. \ViH,| not much. 1 do not know that it affects the price a great duul. Q. Then it does you no injury? — A. Yes; if it builds up an o|i[)j.j sition trade, it has such an effect. Q. How can it, if you get the same prices the while ?— A. Yes; but| then we have to catch more fish. Q. The free admission of fish does not effect the catch ?— A. Cer tainly it does. If you increase the product of fish in any particular dil rection, of course it has that effect. Q. I cannot see how the free admission of fish can affect your catch .' A. For instance, we go to the Grand Banks, and you now fit out vesselsl to go there ; and to all the places where our fishermen go, yours aim go. Q. As to vessels mackerel-fishing, we are withdrawing from it ?-A You have built up a mackerel-fishing fleet ? Q. The evidence is the other way ? — A. During reciprocity, for IdJ stance, quite a large fleet of vessels was built up along Lunenburg nudf about there ; and when the Reciprocity Treaty was abrogated, I thiii^ that quite a number of vessels were left on the stocks, if I am not m taken, and were not built and finished for one or two years afterwards though when they were commenced they were intended to be fishiug| vessels. Q. You are giving your impressions, I suppose ; you do not \mkn to mtimate that you know this to have been the case 1 — A. Well, I kiion it as well as I know Nova Scotia to be down here. Q. Were you then there present? — A. Parties that were there toll] me of it. Q. Y^ou have it from hearsay ! — A. Parties owning them, or who wen having them built, told me so. Q. I am speaking of mackerel-fishing vessels ; and the evidence ist the effect that> our mackerel-fishing fleet instead of increasing has be^ decreasing in number? — A. That is the case everywhere; it is genen' Q. Is the number diminishing very largely ? — A. Yes ; it is so ou on own coast. Q. So the free admission of fish does not develop our fisheries ia thai respect ; 10 or 12 years ago we had 30 or 40 vessels from Priuce m ward Island engaged more or less in the fisheries, and now we ban hardly any vessels so engaged; that seems to point the couclusioDif the opposite direction 1 — A. That is because the business is not proslj able. Q. But, so far from that being the case, the business has doubled aoj quadrupled 10 or 20 times over ? — A. The mackerel business f Q. Yes.— A. Where? Q. We have 20 times the capital engaged in it now than wa8tbe( AWARD OF THK FI8HKRY COMMISSION. 2S95 t do vou meiiu liivearMiico on Priiico Kilwanl IsliiiuU— -A. Well, it requiius 10 ur '20 ,j„,',..4 the nipitiil to gat tliu Hiiine aiiioiiiit. g, Do I uiiderstaiul you to Htiitu tliat the true )i4lti)iM8k)ii of IIhIi ciiii{;;ht ill Hritisli Wiitors into your nimkets docs not affect tli« prico i — A. I ,{,iii,ittliiiilv that it atl'ectH the pricu to anyextont; indeed I do not tiiiiik tbat it does ho at all. I do not tUink that thin att'eetti the price a 1^. You (liller a jjood deal from most of the witnesses we have heard. — A. 1 will It'll yon why 1 think so. It is because the price (Mtrii»|| Q. That may be, but that is not the iiqestion at all ; 1 am asking \|.i whether the catch was lar^fe that year or the price small .'—a. Tim mostly all sny that the catch in 1870 was the largest catch Imt oiietlutj we ever had, and the ]»rice that year was the largest we liav(> hiKJ; voi cannot form a calculation that will work uniformly from vcai to yeitr. j Q. I understand your evidence to be that no matter what the catVlni, the price will remain about the same f — A. No ; I did not sav that. i). What did you say T — A. In 1870 we hati the largest cattji i)ut miei which we ever had, 1 think, in MassachusettH; it numbcml, 1 think, 318,0«| things. Q. Is the rise or fall in the price more owing to the mani|)ulation ufl operations thau to other causes ? — A. I do not say that ; but all tlifs«| things operate. Q. To what extent do you think that the catch affects the price: ii not the price of mackerel, like that of every other artich*, goviTiiOil Id the laws of supply and demand ; if the supply fails, does not the |mk(| go up 1 — A. That would be the case if the selling price was always governed ; that would bo the case if the price to the consumer was ; Avays governed by the stlling price ; but this is not so in the cusi' mackerel. Q. You say then that the price to the consumer always remains tbd same ? — A, The price to the man who eats them does not vary, sav^ very little. Q. That is not nifected by the catch at all, in your opinion ; the pria to the consumer remains the same? — A. It has been the same fur tli^ last ten years. Q. You think so ?— A. I know so. Q. You do not know it; j'our evidence does not Jigree with other cvj deuce. — A. 1 know that is so, because I have had experience iu tli trade. Q. You say that the price is uniform, and, th?t, iu j'our opinion, th catch is not aflected by it ? — A. The catch does not attect the |nid which the consumer pays ; that has not affected it one fraction iliiiiiij the last ten years. 1 mean this is the case as regards the man «li eats and buys them. Q. The catch, in your opinion, would not affect that price ?— A. It li^ not done so during the last ten years. Q. Would it do so, in the course of trade, in a long period of time'j A. If competition was sharp, it might reach that point, but it has iij done so as yet. Q. If the catch was reduced to one eighth, would the consumer, your opinion, then pay exactly the same for his mackerel which he woiJ pay were it otherwise ? — A. They would not pay any more for them, f Q. lie would pay the same f— A. I think so ; the price is generaij fixed at the highest price that will be paid. AWARD OF THE FISHERY fOMMISSION. 2897 0, Tint (i('i»<'^»*l f">' 'rnsli nmckerol Iiu.h inurensod u goud dual uf late Tfursf— A. It (loubloH iiiid <|Uiidrupl(>H ovcry year. ' 0, A coiiHidurable portion of tliu catch on tlio AiiiiM-icaii shore in Hold in the f'i't'sl' «tatti f — A. Well, yes»; 1 Hhoutd say that a lar^o portion of „ 1, s() sold, and it Ih increasing'. 1^. Ami tliat n«?cessarily opens the door for the sale of salt niackorol f— A, i think it shuts the door. ' \l 1)0 you think that the uonsuinption of fresh fish takes place in the ijiatcHin tli« West! — A. No; it does not jjo West. (^1. 1 thought you said fresh lish were carried as far as California ? — A. Yes, Iri'sli seatlsh. • Q, That is what I am talking; of, frosh mackerel ; it is a sea-flsh? — A. iTr<. (,i, Is its consumption spreading' all nlouK the railways? — A. Yes. i), And throu^di all the towns f — A. Ves; at certain seasons of the trar, il The necessary result is that this takes up a portion of the catch on kbe American coast. You said a lar^e portion of it was consumed in Ibf fresh state.' — A. Well, it is. You mean to say that the catch of vs\] iiiackcrel, which is a large portion of the whole catch, afl'ects the aitli of tisli otV the American coast. ([ 1 understood you to say that a large portion of the catch is con- ed in tlu' IVesh state .' — A. \'es ; it is, however, not the greater, but ^l,ii;'e part of the catch which is so consumed. II, Was tliis statement which you have put in made up by you per- loiiilly f— A. It was nmde up by my brother. [}. is lie ill your firm now ? — A. Yes. 1 (I. What is his name i — A. John .1. (I. is this his handwriting? — A. No. I it, Is that the handwriting of Mr. Low, who was here the other by !-A. Yes. [i>, Then it was not nuule up by your brother, but by Mr. Low ? — A. o; that is a copy of what was made uj) by my brother. 1 do not know I have the original in my pocket, but I have it all on one sheet. |i). Is this the form in which your brother made it up ? — A. Yes. I m to keep the other one. |'>. Voii do not know how he got at the values, do you ? — A. Tliey laki'ii from the stocks of lishing-vessels ; that is, when the stock of ftrip is netted: that is, deacking and other expenses. lis is the net stock which is divided among the crew and owners. VI. This is the valuation at which you settle with the crew ? — A. \''e8; Vis what is divided among the owners and crew. |V. This does not purport to be the value at which the lish were after- Isold ill the market ? — A. That is part of the price we would obtain Jtlii' market as dealers. |.'. This does not purport to be the price at which you sold the fish '! — • Not as dealers; no. As Pew vS: Sons f — A. It is the price at whicdi the fish would bo solil jiftliey were sold at the time to a person outside. It does not include the packing-out at all ? — A. No. Vou afterwards pack the fish and sell them in the market ? — A. KTiire packed and all that is taken out. 1 understand that when a vessel comes in the vessel packs oflf and 'settles with the men, aud these are the values at which such settle- Jts were made ?— A. Yes. P' The fish are afterwards placed on the market ; aud this settlement '4'. ;t'' ' ■' 'i'i 2898 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. i> does not show what yon got for them ? — A. I do not know that it does! as dealers. Q. If you feel any satisfaction in drawing the distiiiotioii betweeij yourselves in that cai,e and as dealers, do so. — A. There is a markij distinction between these two positions. Q. Is the packing out included in this statement ? — A. No. Q. How could it come out if this is the valuation which von sfttlodl with the men ; 1 understand that this does not represent in tlK'sIijrlite>j degree what you got for the fish, but that it represents rlie lixt-d iryintj at which you settled with the crews, aiul does not embrace the pad: out at all, or what you gt)t for the tish ; am I right in niaiiing tiiat sumption ? — A. No; it is an assumption, just as you say. Q. Then 1 am riglit in it? — A. It is an assumption, because \oii mi( it is the price of settlement. Q. Am I right in saying that you settled with the crew at that price I A. Yes ; of course. Q. AVhere, then, am I wrong in that assumption .' — A. You say tlialj is the price which we would tix, and at which we would settle with m crew, without regard to anything we got; and I say, in tiiat respect.! would not have any regard to what we got in our separate business, al dealers and retailers; it relates to the packing of the trip, the .st'i|iu|| of it wholesale, and the paying of the crew, tlie highest wlioiesak'niiJ which the tish would bring at time, if sold to anybody, per trii). wJ then take the trip and sell it at the pi'ice which would be brou^lit hi the disposal of it in small packages to ditt'erent parties in tin* ntif trade ; this is a separate business. Q. This repi'csents, of course, the price at which you .settled witlitlij crew for the mackerel ? — A. Yes. Q. And it is not the price at which you sold the mackerel in tlituiU ket .' — A. Not as a retailer or dealer. Q. As Pew «S: Sons, carrying on the tishing business in Gloncostor. i does not represent the money received for mackerel when sold .'—A. dealers, no; there is a distinction between the two positions. Ya jiulge it as if we settled with the crew at one price and obtained anoth^ price, thereby acting dishonestlj'. Q. Not at all. — A. It would be so understood. Q. Where would the dislionesty lie ?— A. Y'ou say that this is price you fixed and at which you settled with the crew, without le^Mij to the i»rice you got ; and unless that was explained the men woiil we did not obtain the price we ought to have secured ; and I v.aiit IH matter .set riglit. Q. Some of these are mere estimates ? — A. They are actual fijiiiros Q. Some of them are mere estimates .' — A. Only one of tlu'in i> estimate on the ditt'erent numbers ; the aggregate number is conwt, Q. Can you tell me the length of time each of these vessels wii^ the bay, and their length of time in the shore-ttshing ?— A. Well. H average Q. Hold; I do not want the average ; yon have given a list ot v^ sels, 5 in number, which in 1870 were in the bay, and of S, wliieli we the same year fishing on your shore, and I desire to ascertain tliecM time which was spent by these 8 vessels on your shore .'—A. It "oit be about the same — about 4 months. Q. You say generally, about ; was the time occupied in thebaya'j the same as was the case on your shore ? — A. Certainly. Q. What was the tonmige of these 8, compared with those '^J sels ? — A. It was about the same ; they were, perhaps, the same vj AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2899 ise \ou \4 •Ijwhicli went one year on onr shore and the next year into the bay, inmg tiieir voyage. They were the same vessels precisely ; some kbetion our shore one year and the next year in the bay. {[Sometimes vessels going into the bay make very short trips, and at Kkertiinea tiiis is not the case ; there is no particular average for their ill tlie bay ? — A. Of late years the mackerel fishery has been cutiHl loii;,'or on our shore than was previously the case ; this has fuso since we commenced seining. The ves;:els during this period jvecniie soiitli to tisli. [ (], Would tliat be about an average of the trips in the bay and on j,rsin)re?— A. Yes; I think that is the exact time which they are , ;;one. j Q. Otliers make 3 trips ? — A. I should include all the trips in the one. (|, Yim are not able to name the actual vessels which went, and the nal periinl of time for which they were gone ? — A. Xo; not now. [q. I'milil you do so ? — A. Yes. h. Witliiu a reasonable time ? — A. I could do so in a week's time. jQ. It was daring the war you made the highest interest on your in- stmeiit .'—A. Yes. |Q. Tbiit was during the lleciprocity Treaty ? — A. During the latter tofit. IQ, Is it cnstoiiiary to charter vessels in Gloucester ? — A. It is not a ml custom ; it is done occasionally'. IQ, iliive you ever done it i — A. Yes, I have chartered vessels. IQ, Fuim Gloucester '! — A. From Gloucester peoi)le. Fishing-vessels ? — A. Y'es. Ilj. What (lid you pay per month ? — A. When we chartered a vessel, Vli was some time ago, I think we paid 8250 a month. j(i, Did yon get the vessel already fitted out for that sum ? — A. Yes. |Q Is that chartering a usual or an unusual thing? — A. It is an un- 1 thiiij,'. |Q. Vfiy minsual ;' — A. It is not customary ; it is not the general ktiw. |Q. That was a tishing- vessel you chartered? — A. I think for a fishing jw 1 have chartered herring vessels to go to Newfoundland. \l Vmi chartered vessels to go down and buy frozen herring in Xew- laiid.'— A. To go in winter. liiin ,s[)eaking of mackerel tishing. Do you know of any vessel iiliiharti'red for that tishing .' — A. Yes, a vessel has been chartered 8>illllMk:'. p. i'it excepting that vessel, have vessels been so chartered during Jiast ten years .' — A. They are chartered more or less every year. ' i'm'inacki'rel-tishing ? — A. Y'es. lIThiit system has been kept up? — A. It is not a common practice, lotitot'tlie .'.OO or 400 vessels, some years perhaps three or four would paitt'icd and other years one or two ; it is a small number. \Mi('ii you were tishing for herring at Newfoundland and (i rand iiiii. how did you enter them in your market ? — A. As merchandise. As Ameiiean herring ? — A. Xo ; we went under a register, and pfil thorn as IJiitish products. I- I'iil you pay any duty on them ? — A. No ; fresh fish for immediate iiiil'tion are admitted duty free always. ■^^Ih'u you spoke of paying 82."»0 per month for the charter of a f'tliilyou mean it to apply to the winter or suuiiuer season ? — A. « summer season for mackerel. 2900 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. By Mr. Wbiteway : Q. Have you ever carried on herring-fisbing yourself on tlie southern coast of Newfoundland 1 — A. No ; vessels we own have gone there, Q. When did you commence the business of sending tlieui there fur herring?— A. In 1860 or 1861 ; 1860, 1 think. Q. In what month did you send them 1 — A. Tbey start about the last of November and come back as quickly as possible, usually arrivint' home in the early part of February. ' Q. Between 1860 and the present time, how many vessels, oh an aver age, have you been in the habit of sending there every winter?— a, Usually two or three every year, right along from year to year. Q. Have any of your vessels taken nets to catch herring?— A. Never, Q. You employed the people to catch herring for them ?■— a. We i bought them from the people. Q. Those are frozen herring you refer to ? — A. Tbey were bought, I as I understand, and the vessels froze them. Q. What do you do with the herring? — A. They take them toXeffl York and sell them retail in the markets as fish-food, and some are soldi for bait. Some are also sent to Philadelphia and sold for food. Q. What proportion do you say goes to New York— nearly tliel whole ? — A. I should say New Y'ork and Philadelphia, on an average,] take two-thirds of them — the larger part of them. Q. W^hat did you pay the people of Newfoundland for herring m winter? — A. J think up to 6, 8, 10, aud 12 shillings; the ]»rices went iipj for herring was scarce. Not more than two-thirds of the vessel!! guj loads, consequently they forced the prices up to $2.50 per barrel. Q. Ilaveyou not bought them as lowasaOcentsand 75 cents a ban el I- A. They have never been bought so low. The first year the Amerioai^ vessels went there they were bought for 3 shillings or -1 shiilinjfs, Q. What is the lowest price paid by you? — A. One dollar— (isiiillinjsl Q. As far back as 18(50; are you sure about that?— A. Yes; iiretij clear on it. ii. The lowest price you paid was 8 1 ? — A. Yes ; I am clear alwii that. Q. You have heard of others having paid 80 cents ? — A. Tlie lir year the business was started I think they were bought as low as; cents; fs soon as American vessels commenced to go there thepri^ went up to $1 and ><1.2<>. Q. Has it been a profitable trade with you? — A. Profitable attl< early part: unprofitable at the last. Q. But still you keep sending the same number of vessels!— A., uuin does what lie has usually been doing. Q. Have any of your vessels fishing on the Grand Hanks j^oiie itt| Newfoundland for bait ? — A. Y'es ; they have made a practice of years to go in. Q. W^hen did they commence that practice? — A. ]My impression j in either 1874 or 1875. 1 am not certain which year, but three or i years ago. Q. The difi'erence between the twenty vessels and those tli.it I gone to the bay, have been employed on the Banks cod-llsliing.'- Mostly off our own shores, on the Georges, cod-fishing. Q. How many have been on the Grand Bank? — A. I think lliei vessel I had on the (^rand Bank was in 1870 or 1871. We haveg^ from one vessel up to 6, which number we have there this year. Q. I believe you said that cod-fishing with you had been, on the wh very prosperous ? — A. It has been the best part of our business. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2901 Q. Have you any bills or accounts with you as to what you paid for bait on the coast of Newfoundland ? — A. No. {}. How many times on an average each year would a vessel go in for l,j,jt f_A. I should say that some of our vessels would go in once and others tbree times in one trip. I should think they would go in almost three times on an average. (^). What bait have they got ? — A. Herring, squid, and I am not sure whetlier they got caplin or not. 0. Can you say as to what was the amount paid by each vessel for bail for the year ?— A. It would be an estimate. 1 have the drafts with uie that I paid this year. Q. Have you made up an average ? — A. No. (). Judging from your knowledge, can you approximate the amount '! _A. I think 1 can. 1 should say wo paid from 8l*,(^^"* to 8L*,.")U() this , present year. ' Q. Was that for baiting vessels ? — A. Yes. Q, Was that all paid for bait or did it include other articles ?— A. JThe large part of it was for bait. Q. What proi)9rtion ? — A. There is only an amount paid for light-dues latXefffoniulland. Q. Were there any other supplies purchased by you 1 — A. No ; wo [always lit out the vessels ourselves with the necessary supplies. (J. Do you buy everything for cash ?— A. Always for cash. Q. Vou will barter anything ? — A. Never. They draw sight drafts on. By Mr. Davies : Q. 1 think you said you did not think the British fisheries were of any jralue !— A. I think thCy are of very little value. Q. Then if you were excluded from the bay, it would be of little mo- Imeut to you ? — A. Yes, if your people were kept from our shores and Imariiets. Q. Without considering the question of market ; if American tisher- Bienwereexclnded from the bay, it would be very little injury to them t — It would be very little. Q, Do you wish that to go on record as your opinion ? — A. Yes. Q. (Jan you then explain the previous anxiety displayed by them to [ft the inshore fishery in the bay? — A. No; that is something I should iesomebody else to explain. 1 never could understand why our people banted it. In 1SG3, 18(54, and 1863, which were the most prosperous fears iu the bay and when our vessels did the best they ever did there, mrvessels on our own shores could make three dollars where they made wdoliars in the bay; and yet the men wanted to go iu the bay. They flws used to go ashore at Prince Edward Island, have a dance and a «(1 time. j Q. You think it was due to the attractions of the island ? — A. I think so. [Q. The loss on the voyage in 1870 you place in the statement at $309 ? — That is a statement of the trip copied from the book. By Mr. Foster : IQ. Was the license fee of 81 per ton, in your judgment, as much as [macicerelman going into the Bay of St. Lawrence could afford to pay 'the privilege of the inshore fishery in the best years ? — A. I think it jii' ninre. IQ. You have been asked as to the longest of the trips. You have fen the results in the bay and the results on the shore from 1870 to ■'S inclusive. I want to "know whether this represents the case of Is which fish through the whole mackerel season in the respective umi" r -^ 4; 4 ^ tjksM^. ft ; J ^^^^„.-j.- »t ^j, .„^ .afWiK^ -^ i|v^TI ■':';;. ' ! R| tel :^i^: ;'i ■ ■'a •I' .■ '.'■'' :-j ti tiii^is!.-'-' i, .»'•-*» ■ >■■(% 4"' '■ f m^* 2902 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 1^*' places? — A. Yes; it does. There are vessels that were ftsliinj; alto, {^etlier on the shore, and vessels that were in the bay all the tinu' the>! were niackereling, with the exception of last year. Q. Does it rei)resent from June to October in the bay, and wiiativeii the length of the season was on onr own shore? — A. Yes; the timj they were in the bay, and the length of the season on our slioic. \\\ haps the vessels did not go in the bay till Jnly. It has only bwn ti or three years since the time has varied on onr shore and in the Imv, Q. You did not pnt vessels which had fished four or live iiiontiisoi our shore against vessels which had been in the bay for 00 days .-J No; it represents the whole bay fishery of the vessels. Q. In those seven years you have had from IJny St. Lawmia $77,lMto.22 worth of mackerel, and fiom our shore $271,;5;j.'3..j1 wonli', A. Yes. Q. You have been asked about the settlement with the sliausimiii the end of the mackerel voyage. How is the price at wliicli tlifiiuni erel is taken by your firm determined .' — A It is detcrniiuL'd by tli highest market price paid at the day of settlement. Q. If there is any dispute about it, how do you get at tlie inaikd price ? — A. We always take the highest i)rice paid ; it is (leteiiiiiiiedl the sales at the place. Q. Do you not bine a chance to cheat the captain and sharesiiKii.'.| A. No. Q. Why not? — A. Because it is publicly known what the sales are. Q. The right of packing is reserved by your firm ? — A. The piicis;!^ made after they are packed. Q. lieserving the right of packing to your firm, if your linn caiiii^ give as much for the mackerel when packed as others will, have any right to give only part of the price ? — A. No ; we arc coniinlleil I give the market price. When one master wishes to keep a trip iiivi«j of an advancing market, then in that case the judges decide what trip should be valued at on the day the fish were ready tor sale, and crew will be settled with at that rate. If the market is dull and crew insist on a settlement, the owner has the privilege of takiiir; t| crew's half, putting them on the market and selling them, and at tl^ l)rice the crew will be settled with. Q. In regard to bay and shore mackerel, how have tliey conipan for two years past? — A. Ever since I can remember, with tlieexcei'tij of two or three j'ears, the shore mackerel have always been thelii and brought the highest price. Those two or three yeais wireexc^ tional, and baj' mackerel then brought a higher price. Q. You are a mackerel buyer ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you bought mackerel in the provinces? — A. I baveboiigj provincial mackerel, but not in the juoviuces. Q. When there was a duty on provincial mackerel, and a man \m\i mackerel at Halifax, would he have to pay the i)rice of that same mil erel in the United States, or would you pay $2 less ?— A. You woj always buy at $2 per barrel less. Q. Have you bought any mackerel since you have been hero!-J have tried to buy some. Q. As to this matter of the corner-grocery prices of mackerel.] say that the retail price to the man who eats mackerel has not niij for the year, however the price in the market has fluctuated .'- Las not varied for mackerel or codfish, materially. Q. A man who wants to buy mackerel for his family does not bi^ barrel ? — A. Perhaps one or two pounds, or one or two fish. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2903 (). Aud tlie retail price for that quantity is still the same ? — A. Yes. i), 1 suppose if I buy a salt codfish to make flsh-balls for my family itvill stay at the same price to me for a good many years, notwith- standing extreme fluctuations in the market ? — A. It will hardly vary. (I, The retailer may make or lose money ? — A. The jobber generally gets the (lill'erence. 0. The man selling me cannot raise the price on mo much, unless itereisa long-continued advance ? — A. It would not make much diller- fueeon two pounds of lish whether there was an advance of oue or two ilollar.s per barrel. 0, Then if the price goes down what is the etfcct to the retailer? — A. IlAloes not make as much money. Q. Mr. Davies, I think I understood you say that you had vessels iliidi went fishing for halibut aud cod indiscriminately — catching them rironiiscuonsly. Explain. — A. I u.nant that we have 2U vessels which coiishiujr for halibut exclusively ; those are what we call fresh-halibut TO:«els. NVe have vessels which go to tlie Georges for salt codfish, and tkbiilk of those in pursuing their salt-Hsh voyages will get 10, 8, 5, 0, 3,01 KWorliOU pounds of halibut, and they bring them home fresh. i}. No great part of the vessels going to the Georges lish for halibut jMTcll as cod l — A. A very small part. I have vessels which have not fo! ii singk' halibut. When vou spoke of paying $25D a month for chartering a vessel, j™ spoke of her being all titted out. Did you mean litted out with IWiksand lines and seines ? — A. Xo ; I had I'eference to the vessel only. Q, You did not include outlit ? — A. No. By Mr. Davies : (|. Did I understand you to say that this statement of a voyage is »liied from the record in your books of an actual voyage ? — A. Yes. ij. Have you a similar account opened for each schooner in your kiks?— A. Yes. Q. That represents the charges against the trip; not only the marine ^lip-biit painting, calking, and supplying it with anchors ? — A. Yes, igaiiisttliat voyage ; we want those things. l>. Vou don't presume to say that those are properly chargeable against jtequautity of mackerel taken on that trip ? — A. Yes; they are charges tatcouie out of the trip, that are incidental to that trip. They ought ii k larger. It). Why? — A. Because the vessel had been in the winter to New- pniUaiid, in the spring to the West Indies, and was ready to go on a liiiis; voyage. I II. Among the items, 8102 is charged for duck ? — A. That would pro- ply be for a stay-sail. 1^1. And fairly ciiargeable against one trip ? — A. Certainly, the vessel oakl have to have it. IQ. There is sail-making, $194 ?— A. Yes. I Q. A spar-making bill, 88. Do you think these charges fairly rei)resent fiecbarges against a vessel for the trip? — A. They vary somewhat. m are actual charges made against the vessel on that trip. 'i'. Would not the account be made up at the end of the year ? — A. Farcoiint is made up for the voyage. There might be in the sail- tes bill some charges which ought to go in the spring trip, aud "It; expenses paid in another year should be charged against this trip. f" vary a little always. Q Then it does not represent truly the charges that ought to be : 2904 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. against this trip to see whether the trip was bona fide a profit or los.s!^| A. No, because they might be greater or less. " Q. In your capacity as dealer you make a i)rofit on the nackinjl out?— A. Yes. *■ * (I. So, though there is nominally loss, yet practically \m\ (li,iii„t| sustain a loss? — A. Yes, we did. We packed out on that trip \q barrels. If you find the packing charge, it is, I think, -^IT"), aud wel could not possibly make more than 830 or $10 out of the i>aokiiijj. (J. From the other trips made during the year the tliargt's ii;,'aiiist thj vessel would be reduced, and consequently at the end of the year th result might show a profit? — A. Against the trip to Nt'wfomullii.mj there was charged a quantity of duck, and I know we liad two smlJ that were used in the bay trips. Part of the sailinakcr's acioniij should go against the bay trip. By Mr. Foster : Q. There seem to be 81.245.08 charged on the debit side of ihj account, and 8001.91 as an offset for certain items, thougli tli^'v are hdI carried out. That was the actual cost of the articles I — A. The ti<,'iiit-| were taken from my books, under my direction. Q. That account for each vessel is kept in order that you may kim how your business is going on ? — A. Yes. Q. The suggestion has been made that it does not accurately roprel sent the precise results of the particular voyages, because soiuj expenses are charged here which would not always be cliarged, ami course that is true. But how much is the variation l Kun yimreve over the items, and let us know to what extent the amount won likely to vary, taking a number of years? — A, This account oiigbt t| be larger. Q. Explain what you mean. — A. I mean ♦^o say that the vessel wij partly fitted for the trip when she went i . For instance, she n painted on deck, and her rigging was in perfect order, antl she had iiaii of her stores on board, which had been paid for on preceding voya;'i This account is a smaller account than it would actually be it ;ii vessel had not gone previously anywhere else. Q. If Mr. Davies will send anybody to Gloucester, he cau liarj access to examine your books,? — A. Yes; and I shall be very glad it I will come and take some shares in our vessels. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. You have mentioned the year 1870 as one of very high prices toj mackerel and at the same time a very large catch 'I — A. Yes. Q. In 1871 prices were exceedingly low ? — A.. Yes, Q. Do you know that 1871 was the year when the Washington Treatj was made ? Bo you think that would have any effect in reduciuj,' tlj prices ? — A. Not a great deal. Q. Your opinion is that notwithstanding the large supply of tisb tlij came in in 1870, and the readmissiou of Canadian fish provided for f the treaty, it did not really affect the change in the price ?— A. >'o J lay it altogether to speculation in the article. I know that, because r got very badly bitten. By Mr. Foster : Q. What was the date of the break in the prices ?— A. They werecjj ried along till about April or May, 1871. By Sir Alexander Gait : Q. Mr. Hall told us that the prices broke in December, 1870 ?— A. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2905 jjfried that year 50,000 barrels of mackerel and held thera right along It the bigb prices — at the prices they were nomiually on the market; tiat DO sales were made after January or February. (^. Did you not expect the prices to fall when British fish were ad- ^j,tt.dt— A. I did not consider the British tisli at all. By Mr. Dana : Q, In keeping an account for a vessel either by the trip or month, you I fliiirjie to tliat month or that trip the expense that has been incurred 1 fitbin that period ; of course, the benetit muy extend over the next trip.'-A. Yes. Q. For instance, in this account the spar-maker's bill is very small, Thile the sail-maker's bill is rather large ; in the next trip the accounts might be reversed ? — A. The accounts of our other vessels all through tkffboleyoar, and the profit or loss on the vessel, will not be deter- mined tillthe end of the year. This, however, was a vessel of which Itlie waster ortned half, and he had his voyage always made up when it |iascoiupietetl, whether from the Banks or Newfoundland. Q, In keeping an account of a vessel, it would be ditlicult and ttx) hnch a matter of speculation to distribute the cost of a jib or jib-boom lover two or three trips, and calculate the percentage 7 — A. Yes. Q. To keep such an account would be an impossibility ? — A. It would Ikeveryilifticnlt. Q, So you charge to each trip the expenses incurred on that trij) .' — li We usually go over the debit and credit accounts as they stand in Ithe ledger about three times a year. There is no settlement made, but teascertain the condition of the vessels, for instance, in May, August, jjDil October, and we take that into account in our future calculations. I). You make those inquiries for your own benelit ? — A. Yes ; in the Imageuient of our business. By Mr. Foster : Q. Did you look over Major Low's account of Pharsalia ? — A. Xo. By lion. Mr. Kellogg : Q. In regard to the register of vessels and ownership, I did not quite Jmlerstaud you. For instance, a corporation and partnership, as j;ou *,you are obliged to have your vessels owned by individuals, in order liive tliem registered? — A. The partnership business is a business kliere we are on equal terms. The vessels we own are registered by us Is owners. ]Q. Do you own them individually? — A. AVe each own i)arts of ditter- pt vessels. All three own parts in the same vessel ; but my father ws more vessels than I do, and I own more vessels than my brother. IQ. I thought they were owned separately. The company owns them, ftthey are registered by the individual partners/ — A. The company ssnot own them as a company, but they are owned by us as indi- fcals. IQ. The register is in individual names? — A. Just as they are owned. y register shows the owners. By Mr. Davies : IQ Do licensed fishing- vessels require to enter at the customhouse, |are they exempt ? — A. They do not require to enter and clear after Fare licensed! unless they are doing foreign trade. IQ' When they confine themselves to legitimate fishing they are not >ired to enter or dear ?— A. No. « *■}., .'i i •■ ■: A ■" i 'j'l!iJ P|)8 I ■;; '¥■■:'■ 0 ■'■fbi-y' 2906 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. IJy Hon. Mr. Kellofjg: Q. Is there any ditterence in the cost of huiUlinfj the same vessel in your port and in the ports of the provinces? — A. No. 1 hIkuiIiI think it will cost fully as much, and perhaps more, to build in tlu' province^ as pfood a ship as we build. It will cost fully as much, at any rate. Q. In regard to halibut-fishinj; by cod vessels. Are tlidse lialilmtj caujjht on their way to fish for cod, or do they lish specially for them' A. No. Q. You spoke in regard to salting halibut; do you often salt tliem!-) A. We do always on the Grand Banks. Our vessels for salt coil ahv,iv< catch more or less halibut, which they put into salt. One vessel on on J of its trips brough) back one fourth of its fare as Hitched JKilibut fmiul the Grand Banks. By Mr. Foster: (}. Uo you say you could not build a vessel of the same kind in tiiej provinces cheaper than at Gloucester? — A. You mean tliat t;ikiii;;,i| white-oak vessel you ask me whether they can build it cheaper iutV-f provinces than we can. ^ By Hon. Mr. Kellogg : • Q. Is there any difference in price in building vessels in our ports ainii there ? — A. There are dilFerent kinds of vessels. Q. Is there any difference in the cost of building vessels ; take tlid same vessel ? — A. No ; very little. It is only a question of the laburl and that is a very small amouut. There is a shipbuilder in Miiine wlioj claims he can build them cheaper than they can be built iu the pror{ inces. By iMr. Foster: Q. That is quite contrary to what we had supposed to be the case, would like you to justify the opinion. — A. They have not the inattiiaa in the provinces to build what we call a first-rate ship. They haveuoi any white oak. Q. Where do you get your white oak? — A. Our white oak we jei from New Hampshire and Massachusetts. Our bard pine comes Iroi^ the Southern States. Q. Take such vessels as are built in the provinces, are they built less expense than those at Gloucester ? — A. They are cheaper-hiiilt lislij ing-vessels. They use a cheaper-built fishing-vessel in the provinca than we do; but for the same vessel, I have my doubts whether it ta^ be built cheaper in the provinces than in the States. By Mr. Davies : Q. Do you make that statement with regard to the present time ? Vej sels built, say last year, and those now building, are they inferior vtj sels to United States flshing-vessels ? — A. Y'es. Q. Do you know what vessels have been built at Shelburue and Ya| mouth during the last two years ? — A. I have seen them. Q. And you still say they are inferior vessels? — A. Yes. Q. You wish to be understood as referring to the vessels themselye^ — A. I understand you take what I call a vessel — the quality of tli wood, and the workmanship put on the vessel. Those vessels I do u^ consider so good as ours. AWAKD OP TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. Witness baiuled iu the following tables : Schooner General (Irant. 2907 I'.i [SalledJuno g; arrived October 37, le'U; 4;i nioiitlis I ffi.'2(«t barrels nieBS mackerel, at Sn.t'O ^:i'ir< Gl H.oO l,7i:i()l 7.("i i-'o :>() fi.OK ir) (III 4 Hi l(i (10 !,".» 0(1 ll- :;iW"i liiirrt'lM No. 1 inac,k»MTl, at .5, Im.'iiiii liiirrels No. '■I inackiTel, at '1 'iiHi.'.XMj l)!int'lH No. !i niackorel, at i .'iT-'.HiO Imnt'ls riiHty mackerel, at :i.7ri. liarrels Hlivers, ut ituit MoUl un trip ... a.oo. W-'.'Oil ti,'2t>'4 .V$ EXI'KXSKS. h king I'i* l"''.l-200 barrels, at :?1 .7,"> :?'J'.t:! ;.l liwi'i'lH slivers, at i?:J..">i • K W li' iiarivU slivers, at .^).00 , M)arrfls cliinis, at 4.'J5 S' Iwrri'ls slivers, at Il.OO ■Sbirt'ls water, s;i.3(i ; '2 feet wood, 81 ■ Tarring and scraping WattT, James llowio i Hi)i«tiiig 17') barrels , , Willows and orpbans 50 42 t»il 4 1(1 I 2 4 (m r)(i 00 .-)0 00 :!() (10 IT men's sbares . Sihooner's half. ICiOO. Ir-dl lri(i-i. iHfia, 1H(;4 , ISO.-), ll3(W, l-^O'J, 1-^70 1^71, 1-72 l'?7:? L!>74, 187.') l-7f) 1^77, John Pkw &. Sons. lictail price of salt at (lloucestvr, from 18(iO /o 1^77. .^2 per bbd. of 8 measured bushels. (i(i7 ir. 85:! 2U 8^2 C'.t 2,21)2 5:? 18. 2 2 4 :h 2i 2i 2" 5-4 2i 2 u li 4'JJ L U. E. 2.76 average price for 18 years. JOHN PEW & SONS, Gloucester, Mass. No. 74. I ... -,. . . ^ «*■* iGEoitGE W. Plumer, of Gloucester, Mass., commission niercbant Mtisli ileiiler, called on behalf of tbe Government of the United States, fwuaud examined. By Mr. Dana : j Question. You were born iu Gloucester? — Answer. Yes. 2908 AWARD OF THE FI8I1EKY COMMISSION. (•r a I Q. Yon never were a practical tlsiiermnn, I believe ? — A. No; I nov went tiHhinj<;. Q. When did yon actnally go into the fishing hnsiness on ,vourow;i ac(!onnt? — A. On my own account in l.sr>5. Q. J'revions to that yon ha«l been a clerk, or otherwise, in a lislnn- house ?— A. 1 had. ii,. How many years ? — A. Six years. (^. In what fishing house ? — A. J. Mansfield «S: Sons. Q. Was that one of the largest firms in (rloucester? — V. Vcs; at that time it was one of the largest houses. It had been euga^^cil in the M\. eries 70 or 80 years. (}. In all kinds of fishing? — A. Oeneral fishing. ij,. You began with one vessel, I suppose ! — A. Yes; ;i sm ill intiivit in only one vessel in the bay fisliery. ii. i)o you recollect what she made 1 — A. About 200 barrels of lisii. (2. In \H~)(i how many vessels had you ? — A. One vessiH. Q. In 1S.")7 ? — A. I had one vessel, W^est Gleam, fitted out for sciiiiii.', and I sent her into the North I>ay. Q. Purse-seining? — A. It was a seine adapted to either [)ur.siii;' ur drawing on shore, as we make them sometimes. Q. What luck hail you with purse seining in IS.IT i~\. I miil. very successful voyage. The vessel packed 520 l)irrels, 1 think. (j. Have j'ou done anything like it since ? — A. No. Q. W'hat did yon do in 18.18 ?— A. In IS."»S, from the fact of Imvin,' made a successful voyage in the previous year, I litted out tliiee lar;.' vessels with seines for the same business. Q. What did the ditt'erent vessels take that year? — A. One piickiilj 273 barrels, another 270, and the third 47 barrels. Q. Were those, in fact, taken by seines ? — A. They were not. ii,. How was the seining ? — A. It was not successful; very few wtri taken. They were mostly taken with hooks. Q. Then, so tar as seining was concerned, the trips were a total t,i ure ? — A. I consider so. Q. How were those vessels commanded ? — A. One was command.; by the same man who was successful the previous year, another ui commaiulod by his son, and the third bj' a competent m in who has lieei a witness here, Ezra Turner, of Isle of Haut. Q. The fish that were obtained were taken by hooks ?— A. Most o| them, as I have reason to believe ; a small portion may have been takei with seine. Q. Ware those taken with hook taken inshore or offshore ?— A. Ipei sonally have no information on the subject. Q. Do you hapiien to know from the reports of the masters ?— A. Yei Q. How was it ? — A. The report from two of them was that they wenj round the Newfoundland coast, and to the Magdalen Islands, and canjlij most of the mackerel there. As regards the third man, I have uo reci lection as to where he caught his mackerel. Q. In 1859, did you send out a seiner ? — A. I sent two of those sai vessels into the bay. One of them caught 182 barrels, and the voyai of the other was nearly a failure ; it caught very few mackerel ; 20o( barrels. Q. W^ere those 180 odd barrels taken by hook or seine ?— A. I tbi with hooks ; I am not positive. Q. In 1860, how many vessels did you send to the bay ?— A. Onl one. Q. How was she fitted out 1— A. With a seine and small boats fort! AWARD OP THE FISHKRY COMMISSION. 2909 (mriw.'woftl.'sliitig inshore ronml Priiico Edvvanl Islaiid. I hiul been liirre 1111(1 liixl btMsuine iici|uaiiitA'(l with Mm boatllshint; there, and I Heut ll,^ vessel there for the express imrpose of tisliiiij? inshore. (I. What sort of a seine ay. Q, That is the whole reason ". — A. I am not enabled to determine that. Ikiioff what 1 have said has been the case. t^ Did you yourself go to Prince Edward Island and establish a busi- ness!—A. I (lid, in 1858; in connection with those vessels I went to island, and since that time I have been engaged in shipping pro- jtec, aud connected a little with the fisheries. ^'. From 18.")S you have been connected with the island as a mer- iCliiiiit!— A. More or less to the present time. ^l What is the principal business you have been engaged in at the ■laiul!— A. My principal business at the island has been the shipment t'liotaioes, and in some cases cargoes of oats. 1 have also shipped argots to the West Indies of the general products of the island, includ- ' ve stock. Q. Then your business on the island has been dealing in the i)roducts t'ie island, and sending them to the West Indies and elsewhere ? — A. w; princiiially to the markets of the United States, and occasionally tlif West Iiniies. Q. And at the same time you have kept up some connection with the sliiiifr?-A. A little, occasionally. Q. Have you had an interest in a vessel or two every year ? — A. I '»^e, passing over some two or three years. Along about 1803, 1804, and ( ■ill. ^ ' ^^^#,j?r,. 'I ■' { Hi "f <»>»: >>f'7. Q. Do you think that voyage produced an effect on you .'—A. I « stimulated me to further action. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2011 faith has given out *. — A. A littlo, ami I am j,'<*tting a 1.S73 f — A. 1873 was my last visit to (). IJiit join- llttli' old* (t, Did you I«'iivo tho island iii ibf islatxl. (I, IMiriii^' till' tirno ilown to 1H7."5 were yoii callcMl to all other parts of tii,.'i8luml on Itiisiiiess ?— A. I was. (I, 111 yoiii' hasiiH'ss connected with prodiiei' and lishinjj; ? — A. Ves; ,„fiirrlii»siiij,'fisli iind prodnctts. (;, Tims \(»u lit'itt yourself informed f — A. I was necessarily eonipelli'tl iliiilosooii aci'oiint of my jjeneral business. (I. DiiriiiR idl that time have you seen many Anu>riean vessels fishiiif; \mt\\w lit'iid (tf the island i — A. 1 have not. 1 have occasionally seen AiiiiTiciiii vessels, but of course, from the land, I had not a very good lililiortmiity of seeing nmny vessels Hshing. 1^, in 80 far as your observation went, you had not seen many Araori- icaiivi'sst'ls lisiiing/ — A. I think not nnmy. Q, Why had you not an opportunity of seeing them — because they Imi'iiot there ? — A. Bei)ear- Bi?aliovt> the shore line at that distance. (j, You have made observations with glasses and with your eyes .' — Mfiely incidentally, not with any particular reason or object; but kaviii^' vessels out from what we call three miles in Gloucester Harbor, Icdiilil st'c how they apitear on the horizon. Q, So you have a substantial judgment as to the distance a vessel is ff, wlii'ii you know the size of the vessel .' — A. I have had some ex- piicc, because 1 have had the experience of 50 years in vessels, hav- b bad vessels myself, and from general observation. W. Have you had occasion to observe how far out the boats went; I Wt iiieiiii merely your own boats, but other boats .' — A. I have; it pliartot' iiiy duty. 1 was interested in boats, and when there were fcitious oi a storm or night was coming on, I would take a glass and limv the boats fared, for they might want assistance from the shore. |(|. And what distance out did you often liiid the large l)oats that jeu' owned there and engaged in day lishing.' — A. I have said before ptllie tish were sometimes very near the shore, and other tinies if the atliiT was line and the mackerel were playing oil' the coast, they iWat a distaiice of G, 7, or 8 mdes from laiul. IQ. Ho you know ]\rali)eque very well ! — A. Yes. [Q. What do you think of it as a place to run to ? — A. I think Mal- Vieisa very good harbor after you have entered, but the dilllcnlty |to filter it. It is a place into which, with lino weather ami a smooth • Mm can enter with perfect safety. Il' liiit suppose the sea has begun to rise; what then ?— A. I con- f« it the same as all other harbors that are barred. K' What is the depth of water on the bar at high tide ? — A. 1 have 'I'M I ^^'€fti:* r ?;l ^t f^ ^!j^; ma ■111 jjwjj ■■■■:■ iS] .fei*-' 'iM ^:^-'^> '^\^i 2912 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. J si n't- 1 ii never measured it; but I liave loaded vessels which have drawn 11 feet. Q. Do they go out except with a high tide and favorable wind!— a That is left discretionary with the master, of course ; he goes when L is prepared to go, but the presumption is he does not go out in a stoini. Q. What kind of place is it in case of an impending storm ? If, for instance, the tide is low, or the sea has begun to feei the etVoct of the gale, is it a safe place ? — A. I should think it would be unsafe, and a prudent man vrould go round North Cape, and try and make a harbor on the other side of the coast. Q. Is the bar a constant one, or shifting one 1 — A. I do not know from personal observation ; but from general information it is like all sand-bars — changeable. I have had occasion, from year to year, to in- quire into the depth of water at the bars oji the north side of the islaml. iu anticipation of sending vessels there. It depends on the action di the storms. In some cases the water is deeper one year than another, owing to the action of gales on the sand, as it is with all barred har bors. Q. Does the bar shift? — A. It usually shifts somewhat by the action of the sea. Q. Do you know about Cascumpeque ! What sort of a bar is there ! — A. I have loaded vessels at Cascumpeque frequently. It is a good harbor, and safe when you get inside. It is another barred harbor. It is not considered quite as safe as Malpeque; it has not quite so witleau entrance, and has not quite such deep water. Q. It has not so good an entrance as Malpeque ? — A. I don't consider it so. Q. In 1808, what had you in the bay ? — A. The schooner llebecca A, Mathews. Tuesday, October 23, 18". The Conference met. The examination of GEORGE AV. Plumee was resumed. By Mr, Dana: Question. Yesterday you spoke about having fitted out a large veS' sel in 18GS; was her crew American? — Answer. Yes. Q. Did they sail under the American Hag ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you purchase a license ? — A. I think so. My attention wii> yesterday called to a memorandum which I had in my possession, ami that is the only evidence I have of that fact. Q. Your impression is that you purchased a license ? — A. I thiulc so.j Q. IFow long was your vessel gone on the voyage ? — A. Some three j months, according to my impression. Q. What did she ts' .ce? — A. About 70 barrels of mackerel. Q. IIow much did you lose on that voyage ? — A. ]My estimated lossj on the return of the vessel to Charlottetown iu October was souiej $2,200 or $2,300. Q. After 1808 did you do any more fishing in the gulf?— A. Ithinkj not, until 1873 ; but I had some vessels employed on our shore diuiu^j the interval. In 1873 I had a vessel in the bay. Q. Had you any vessels on the American coast in 1809, 1870, ISHij and 1872 ?— A. Yes. Q. How many ? — A. For a portion of the time, two only. Q. Where were they fishing ?— A. On the coasts of MassachusettJ and Maine ; they went as far south as Cape Henry during that time. 1 have drawn 11 »rable wind'!— A. be goes when hf go out in a storm. g storm? If, {or i the etVcct of the be unsafe, anil n Qd make a liarbor ^. I do not know »atiou it is like all year to year, to in- I side of tl»e island. Is on the action of year than anotlier. ■itb all barred bar- iwliat by the action rtof abaristbere! ently. ltisagoo.1 r barred liarbor. It not quite so wide au — iV. 1 don't consider schooner llebecca A. [y, October 23, 18". resumed. [itted out a large ves- Les. L Yes. L :Mv attention wm> lu uiy "possession, aud AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION.. 2913 ly give it in general terms ; it figures with me. (). Wbat was the result ?— A. I can onl; was ratber nnsatisfactory. I have not the Q. How did it compare with the result you obtained in the gulf? — A. Untiivorably, except as to the first large catch I had. Q. Unfavorably, with respect to which fishery ? — A. The provincial. 0. Wbich was the best fishery ! — A. We were rather more successful on our own shore than we were in the bay. Q. Did you again try fishing in the gulf in 1873?— A. Yes. Q. How many vessels had you then there? — A. I have only a mem- orandum of one. Q. How many trips did she make ? — A. One ; she shipped home mack- erel- ou the otii of August I received 128 barrels, and in December 53 barrels. This vessel was lost in the gale of that year, in October, I think, off the Magdalen Islands. Her entire catch was 181 barrels. Q. Did this pay ? — A. It probably would pay the expenses. Q. How many vessels had you fishing in the gulf in 1874? — A. One onlv. Q. Wbat did she take? — A. I have 186^ barrels down for her — the exact quantity we packed. Q. Wbat number of vessels had you in the bay in 1875? — A. One,., whicb got during the season about 240 barrels. Q. Wbat was her first catch ? — A. The first sent home was 179 bar- rels. Q. Were those fish caught with hooks, or the purse-seine? — A. A small portion of them was caught, I am informed, with the seine, and a very large proportion with the hook. Q, Have you any information as to what proportion ?-^A. I think that iu the vessel which I sent out in 1873 they obtained, probably, more tban 100 barrels with the seine, but in 1874 and 1875, when the- I Yessda bad seines, I am not aware of them so securing any. {}. Wbat did you do in 187G ? — A. I then dispatched one vessel to I the bay, and she sent home 47^ barrels ; she was lost in a gale at Port [Uood iu October, when she went ashore. Q, Did you then give up fishing? — A. I have done nothing at it this I year. Q. Wbat can you tell us about the menhaden fisheries in the United |State.s?— A. I have had some general "xperience in that business; I [tave employed vessels in the menhaden fishery for bait. Q. Wbere did they bring their cargoes of menhaden ? — A. To Glouces- Iter. Q. Were any part ot them shipped to Prince Edward Island ? — A. I lave frequently sold bait to be shipped to Prince Edward Island and llifStraitof Uanso, and I have myself shipped them there. Q. Do you know whether orders are received at Gloucester from the slaiid and other places iu tue provinces for menhaden ? — A. Y'es, from Ibefact tbat I have very frequently received them myself, and have .so "Wmenbaden almost every year more or less. This present year I vesold some to go there. Q. Have yon been engaged in the business of buying frozen herring ? •A. Yes. I -A r-i^Bi'''' ^"*^''l'ow many years? — A. I should say it is now about 20 years St iu ISOO, 18.0, I5''i«nce I commenced doing so. I ^H Q. Wbere did you first buy frozen herring ?— A. I think that my first ^yages were made to Newfoundland, on its south shore, in Fortune Bay, Mtootber ports in that direction. 183 F Pnse?-A. IthiuksoJ £ge ]1-A. Some thr« |)f mackerel. Ia. Mv estimated lo^» ^u" October Nvas m^ Itbeaulf^— ^'^H Iry during that timt. I.?*!-^ 2914 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. At what other places have you bought them ! — A. I have done so in tUe Bay of Fnndy. Q. During this whole period of 20 years, have you ever heard whether your vessels fished for or bought herring ? — A. In one instance I litted out the schooner llebecca M. Atwood, which went seining in the bav in 1868, in October, to go on a voyage to Newfoundland; and she pro- cured a cargo of herring. On her return I was told by the master that a portion of these herring were seined by them. I sent a seine and a boat for seining with her. I also gave instructions to purchase, but tliev succeeded, as I was told, in getting a portion of this cargo by seinin" Q. When was this ?— A. In 1868. il. This vessel excepted, have you during these 20 years ever caught herring ? — A. No; that was the only instance when I ever canghtthem! Q. With the exception of this one vessel, have you ever known or heard of American vessels which did catch herring there ?— A. I have, I, with Ezra Turner, who was before the Commission, 1 understand— as I was interested with him in some of his enterprises there— sent nets for the purpose of catching fish ourselves ; but not being successful, we abandoned it. Q. How often did you try this ? — A. Only once, I think. Q. Is that a different case from the one you have mentioned ?— A. Yes ; It was a different voyage, made to the Bay of Fuudy instead ol Newfoundland. Q. Then, in the course of these 20 years you have known of only one vessel that caught a portion of her cargo in Newfoundland, and another which went to catch herring in the Bay of Fundy ? — A. Yes. Q. llow long ago was this? — A. The first trip was made in 1803, and the other about 20 years ago. Q. You have never been engaged in the herring business iu any other wise than purchase, and you have never known any American vessels obtain them, save by purchase, with those exceptions? — A. Yes; I have known of one vessel which was reported to have been fitted out , from Gloucester exi)ressly to catch herring in the Bay of Fundy; slif j was an American vessel, with an American crew, and with nets. Q. How long ago was this? — A. Th^ee or four years ago. Q. What became of her ? — A. The result was that they obtained some j herring, but, on the whole, it was not a paying business, and so tlierj abandoned it; so I was informed by the captain. Q. In the course of 20 years you have only known of two siiclil instances and heard of a third ? — A. Yes ; that is all. Q. You are now living at Gloucester? — A. Yes. Q. What is the condition of the trade in salt mackerel now, coniparetlj with what it was in times past? — A. I think that there has lieeiiiij decline in the consumption of mackerel, and also a falling oil' in tlie| catches and in the trade generally within the last 15 years. Q. W^hat are the causes of the falling off' in the demand?— A. i J course that is a matter of conjecture. I have no facts to establish W opinion, but my idea is that this is caused by the greater abuudaneeoi fresh fish, or rather the greater facilities for the transportation ol fresj fish into the interior of the United States by railroads diverging fronf different points, and affording better facilities for transportation. Itij also due in a very large measure to the increase in the catch of ou western-lake fisheries. Another reason I would give for tliis is asfol lows: I think there has been a great deal of fraud practiced by or own packers, and the quality of the fish packed has hence dcteriointef' AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2915 io consequeuce of this fact, people have been deceived, and have not fot a good article. This has been a great weight on the trade. " Q. The quality of the fish has been marked too high ? — A. Yes ; the packers have not kept up the standard character of their fish. Q. Do you know how it is with reference to the South and the South- ern Middle States f Is there now a demand for mackerel from there as used to be the case ? — A. 1 am informed, and my own experience is, that this demand is not so large as it was formerly. Q. What do you think has caused the demand to slacken up there particularly? Is anything there used as a substitute for mackerel? — A. I can ouly account for it by presuming that the Southern fisheries inav have been developed ; and I have been informed that they have heeii somewhat ; however, I have no personal knowledge in this matter farther south than Chesapeake Bay. Q. Wh.it is the principal fishery which they have developed for use South ?— A. It is what they call a herring fishery, though I should con- sider that these fish were more similar to our Northern alewives; and the mullet fishery. Whiteflsh from the lakes are also sent there. Q. Do you know the extent to which the lake fish have been intro- duced into common use in the market ? — A. I know nothing on this head from personal experience, and all I know about it is derived from gen- eral infoniiation which I have obtained on that subject from parties who are in the business. Q. Do you know how much they put up for the market in Chicago ? — A. I only know what 1 have been informed in this regard. Q. Have any fish merchants left Gloucester to go to the Western States to engage in the lake-fish business? — A. Yes; I recollect one wlio did go. Q. What is his name ? — A. John J. Clarke. Q. Was he a man who could not do anything in Gloucester, or was j he a man of capital, enterprise, and high standing? — A. He was a man i of pood standing, with capital enough to carry on his business. Q. He has gone to Chicago? — A. Yea', he abandoned business in Glou- cester and now resides in Chicago. Q. Is he largely engaged in the lake-fish business ? — A. I am told so, audi have had some trade with him myself. Q. Do you happen to know how much business he did last year ? — A. Idonot; but was informed by his brother while speaking of the matter jiucideutally that he packed some 26,000 or 28,000 packages himself. Q. Of large fish ?— A. Yes; whitefish. (v>. You have been to Priuce Edward Island, and you have observed loperations there carefully ; what is the great business of this island, ftsh- jiug or agriculture ? — A. Agricultural pursuits form their principal occu- Ipatiou; on the sea-coast the farmers fish for a portion of the time ; but jl consider agriculture their principal pursuit. Q. Fishing with them is incidental ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you remember a time when they used vessels fishing? — A. I 1^0; at one time, some 12 years ago, I know they fitted out quite a num- «r of vessels at the island. Q. What was the ett'ect of the Reciprocity Treaty on the fishing inter- ^t of the island ?— A. 1 think that its tendency was to develop their Ming Ijusin ess somewhat. They fitted out, as I say, more vessels for Ife business, and there was quite an increase in the number of their plii'igbor.ts, which were then made of a better style, and provided with wer facilities than was previously the case. Q. IIow was it with the island fishermen who had been engaged fish- -'^ith ,:; ig !i?\^*4i;- m '^M i;- ;•■■ y^l >f-i^*ti.^«t j--i. «««t I 2916 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ing from Gloucester ; did they return to the island to any extent and engage in fishing ? — A. Well, that is a diiUcult question to answer Many of our men come during the summer and return homo in the an tumn from Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and all parts of Uiitish North America ; and they may return and they may not. Many of tlipin do return, and some of them take up their permanent residence with us. A large portion of our fishing people are from the provinces. Q. What was the effect of the termination, of the expiration of the Beciprocity Treaty which took place in 186G, on the fisiiiiig interest ot Prince Edward Island, this being followed by the restoration of the ?:' a barrel duty? — A. I have not had very much personal kho\vledj(e()t the fishing about the island since. Q. Since you withdrew from it ? — A. Yes. My last experience there was previous to that, in the boat-fishing. My experience in boat-fishiii" was in 1862 and 1863, and principally, 1 think, in 1862. Q. But you have remained, engaging in other business ?— A. I have for a portion of the time, up to the last three or four years, and I am still engaged in it somewhat. I have not been very largely so engaged, personally, but I send vessels there occasionally. I am consequently hardly competent to give an opinion on that subject. By Mr. Waatherbe : Q. In 1860 I think you said you were engaged in the boat fishing on the island ? — A. I think it was in 1862. Q. In 1862 you went down and took charge of a stage where a person had been drowned ? — A. Yes ; that was my first experience in the boat fishery. Q. I think you sent a vessel there with seines and boats in ISGO?— A, Yes. Q. You stated that the captain did not then give that fishing a fair trial? — A. I think so. I consider that he did not. I requested him to remain thereuntil I met him myself, and I started honje to malie ar- rangements, but he meanwhile went away. His excuse was tliat he could not find any fish there, and hence he abandoned the voyage ; but | I think myself that he did so too soon ; I was not quite satislied wiili | his conduct. Q. Previous to that you had not engaged in the boat-fishery at all ! j — A. No; I had, however, been there, and my attention having been I called to it, I thought it might be profitable; hence I fitted out that j vessel. Q. You thought you would have been successful? — A. Ithouglitlj was warranted in the undertaking. Q. But previous to that, during the 3 preceding years, you had oves-j sels engaged in the Vessel mackerel fishery ? — A. Yes. Q. And they were not very successful ? — A. They were not. 1 sMi the result of their trips. Q. Generally speaking, they were not successful ? — A. Two of tiiera made very fair voyages ; but one, to which I refer particularly, in l!w'*J did not do so. 1 Q. The one which was not successful made her voyage in IS'iS.'-iJ Yes; she got some 47 barrels ; and the one which, in 1860, went totli^ island with the boots, only got a few flsh. j Q. I think you said that the vessel which was not very successful il 1858, from information that you got, fished outside of the threcmii limit? — A. I am not aware of having made any such statement iu coij^ nection Avith those voyages. , Q. Are you able to say now from information you received wLetbd AWABD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2917 i eut and iiuswcr. I tlie iiu- f llritisli / i)V tlieni 'uce vvitli jes. lOU of tbe ntorest of of Uie ^-1 )\vleilt;e of euce there loat-fishing _x\. I have , iiud \ iuu so eugageil, >usequeutly atftsbing ou lere a persoQ li in the boat- in 18G0?-A. ftsliing a fail uesteil him to le to inak« ar- was that lie vovage ; but ! satisl'iea with | Itisbery aull' liaving been [fittwl out that ,. IthousbtU lyoubaiUw*! Ic not. 1 ?4 Two of tlirt |einlS.")S!-M loo, wenttotlifl l-v successful 4 t tlie threeinij lUemcutiucoof Iceived ^^^ (luring that season the fishery was carried on inside or outside of the threemile limit ! — A. They fished I understood, as far as I could have anv information on the subject, principally at the Magdalen Islands, and in the fall, ofl' shore ; and they did not succeed in getting fish early in the year. Q. During that year, as far as you could learn, this vessel was engaged fishing at the Magdalen Islands and otf shore at other places ? — A. I state that these vessels went with seines in the gulf where they were successful the year before ; but they theu failed to procure their fare there and they abandoned their seines ; but during the autumn they succeeded in getting the quantity which I gave. Q. I am speaking of 1858 altogether ; how many barrels did your ves- sel catch that year! — A. I have stated that one vessel took 273 barrels, another 270, and the third about 47 ; these are the approximate quanti- ties as near as I could get them. Q. Did you seek information regarding the vessel which caught the 41 barrels, from the captain, as to where they had fished? — A. Yes; all these vessels were to go and fish on the north shore of the gulf — this was the intention — where one of the captains had succeeded in securing a cargo the year before. (J. Where did the captain of the vessel which caught the 47 barrels tell you he fished ? — A. In the !St. Lawrence, near the uiouth, on the north shore. Q. Was that north of Anticosti ? — A. Yes; and west of Anticosti, in the vicinity of Seven Islands, and to the west of it, up to the places called St. Nicholas and Godbout. Q. That is where they fished and failed? — A. That is where all three vessels went early in the season for the purpose of seining mackerel. Q. And they all fished there ? — A. Tliey all went there early in the season. . For mackerel ? — A. Yes. i>. That is were they fished ? — A. Yes; Jis I am informed. JH, I had three vessels so engaged. Q. la 1858, you were yourself engaged in slii|)ping potatoes and oats from P. E. Island ? — A. In 1858, [ went there and made some ariaiige- Mts for loading these three vessels in tlie fall with produce. I *i'. Then, in 18t]2, you went to take charge of a fishing stage at Ilus- |ico!-A. Yes. Q. So that was your first personal experience in the mackerel fish- [fy'— A. That was my first experience in the boat fisher,\. , Q. Were you personally engaged in the fisheries previously to that? — ' never personally went fishing. i Q. You have had no personal experience in fishing yourself? — A. No, ptatall; I have never been a practical fisherman. IQ. You never eveu had so much personal experience in connectiou • •f:. • j ^ -■ •' ti . • ^1 ■ .. , «... ■. •■ A ■* ■ f ' ('■ L i m I'^m m m^ t» 1 f ^m .41 WW- r M 1 i;|^-"- ^! 4^.;„^*f'^; -««!* ^ 2918 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ■5f with the fisheries as you obtained at the fishing stage iiutil you weJ and took charge of it ? — A. No. Q. Did you oversee the stage and take charge of it persouallv?— J Yes ; I had general supervision of it that sammer. Q. You had six or eight boats employed? — A. Yes. Q. And you caught 020 barrels ? — A. I think so. Q. Were these boats manned by persons who resided on tlie island; A. We had four men from Gloucester, and the remainder of the crewl were island men. Q. Was this the first experience of these four Gloucester men in boai fishing? — A. I think that is probable, but tbey were experienced fislil ermen. Q. And the others you picked up on the shore I — A. Tbey were island men. Q. Were they fishing on shares ? — A. Yes. Q. Eecently, you say, you have observed that the boats have creased in size on the island 1 — A. I think I said I have been so in formed. I have had no personal knowledge, or very little, in this regarl since. Q. Have they largely increased in number as well ? — A. I only speal on this head from information which I have received froin others. Q. How many boats have you heard they have ? — A. I am unable I say anything about the number. Q. You say that the vessels fish nearer the headlands than the inded tations in the shore t — A. 1 had particular reference to the boats i| making that statement. Q. Do you know where the vessels fished ? — A. I have very littH personal knowledge with regard to the vessels. Q. You have very little personal knowledge as to where they tisli f-j Yes; very little indeed. Q. Do you know where your vessel fished the year when the licend was obtained ? — A. I do not ; but I asked the sea-master about it a fe| days before 1 left home, and he told me that they fished that year priud pally on Banks Orphan and Bradley. Q. And he failed there ? — A. Y^es ; they only got a few maclierel thaj year — about 70 barrels, I think. Q. Did you direct him to go there and fish ? — A. I had no control ovej that matter. Q. Did you give him any advice as to where he should fish ?— A, Xol the captain had control of the voyage. Q. In fact, you have never had a vessel fish within 3 miles of tM shore of Prince Edward Island ? — A. Not that I am aware of, with ob exception. I think I had only one vessel there for the purpose of boaj fishing. Q. With that exception you have had no experience in this regard !^ A. No ; not within the three-mile limit. Q. Do you mean to say that less mackerel are now used tbau ff| formerly the case?— A. That is ray impression ; certainly. Q. Can you give me any statistics regarding the quantity of mackej consumed in the United States? — A. I presume that the whole quautij taken is either exported or consumed. Q. Where ?— A. In the United States. Q. Is the whole quantity caught off the United States coast cousua there ? — A. No ; I think that the poorer grade of mackerel, nuiull three, is exported to the West Indies. Q. Are the mackerel caught in the Bay of St. Lawrence chiefly AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2919 ^ 1 iu the United States ? — A. I should say that this is the ease with i^lar?e portion of them. (j, Do you know how many barrels of mackerel are caught and con- siinetlin the United States! — A. I do not know how many are there (Mjumeil. Q. Cau you give us any sort of an idea as to how many barrels of Bjckerel are consumed annually iu the United States ?— A. 1 should tiiak that fully three-quarters of the entire catch are there consumed. Q, Uow many is that ? — A. I cannot give the catch for last year. y, The largest number of barrels ever consumed in the United States lisver.vsmall compared with the population? — A. Yes, somewhat so. Q. Very little of this kind of fish is consumed there iu comparison Ifiihtlie impulation ? — A. I think so ; the catch some 15 years ago was Lni 300,000 to 350,000 barrels; and last year it was only 180,000 bar- lels, I am now giving the figures for the State of Massachusetts alone. I Some years the catch has been as high as 300,000 barrels. Q. Those were caught iu that State ? — They were i)acked in that I Slate, Q, Does this number include what was caught in the bay ami packed [intliat State ? — A I presume so. Q, During what years was the catch 300,000 barrels ? — A. I cannot I tell you. I nm now only speaking iu general terms. q! You spoke of a decline in the catch ? — A. In 18G3 and 1801 we IWavery large catch of mackerel. Q. Can you give any sort of an idea as to the extent of such decline ? I-A. It has gone down from the quantity mentioned to 180,009 barrels |k last year ; and this year the catch will be less. Q. What was it previously I — A. I have no figures which would enable Imetogive such a statement. Q, You cannot tell us what it was previously ? — A. I cannot give you |ttie tipires. Q. We were told yesterday by Mr. Pew that the custom now was to ibip fresh mackerel into the interior? — A. It is so shipped very largely. Q. Fresh mackerel ? — A. Yes ; packed in ice. Q. I understood you to say that the decline in the mackerel trade |Tas owing to existing facilities for sending fish into the interior? — A. Itliink that to a certain extent is a cause for it. Q. But, if they send this very fish in the interior in the fresh state. Plow cau that cause a decline in the mackerel trade? Would this not lather cause an increase? — A.. I was speaking up to the present time of |Klt mackerel entirely. Q, Then you admit that fresh mackerel are being sent into the inte- jiioriu the fresh state ?— A. Yes. Q, And that trade is increasing ? — A. I think so ; the trade in all puds of fresh fish is increasing. Q, Those lish arc caught on your own coast? — A. The fresh mack- |tel; yes Q, Do you not think that this would increase the demand for mack- erel very greatly ? — A. It would increase the demand for fresh mackerel. not think that the oue branch has any influence at all over the per; that is my impression. There is only a limited demand for paekerel. I Q' And only a limited quantity of mackerel is caught? — A. Certainly. JQ; Do you not think that the demand for fresh fish, which is increas- piii the interior, opens an increased demand for salt mackerel ? — A. Vtatall. ¥M ^l'**^^.^^ ^ ill > 'i« mff'^^ BM ¥$^ - .(< -i^- ■^'1 f-'r *f i :,W^. ^t^m-' in- i! 2920 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. p :i'!; Q. Since there is a limited supply altogether ?— A. I think that per. sons who wish to eat fresh mackerel would never eat salt mackerel. Q. You think they give up the use of salt mackerel altogether!-! v Not altogether, but to aceiftain extent. Q. How is it with regard to codfish!— A. Cod are also shipped fresli Q. Is the demand for salt codfish declining ? — I think not. 1 think that the demand for salt codfish is increasing. I think that these are taken in preference to mackerel as an article of food, as they are I be lieve, obtained in better condition, as an article of food, than is the case with salt mackerel. Q. You gave us to understand that one man who carried on the fish ing business in Gloucester went West ; did he do a very large business in Gloucester? — A. He had quite a number of vessels— six or eight i think, employed in the business. Q. 1 suppose that the fish sent West are sent to him in large (luanti- ties ? — A. I think that he is not a buyer of fresh sea-fish — at least 1 am not aware of it ; I think that he deals in salt sea-fish. No. 75. James A. Pettes, fisherman and hotel-keeper, of Grand Manaii, was called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot : (Question. You live at Grand Manan 1 — Answer. Yes. Q. How long have you lived there? — A. Since I was 7 years of age. Q. Where were you born ? — A. In Boston. Q. What is your present occupation? — A. I am a hotel-keeper audlj fish in winter. Q. Do you fish yourself, or buy fi.sh, or fit out fishing-boats?— A, I j fish and I buy fish. Q. How long have you been keeping an hotel there? — A. I could uotl say exactly, but I have done so for 10 or 15 years. 1 live at North f Head, Grand Manan. Q. What is the population of Grand Manan ? — A. Itis somewberel about 2,000; it is now some time since the census was taken. Q. What proportion of its people would you say are engaged in fcli ing ? — A. I should think less than one-fifth of the population do so, orj 350 people. Q. What fisheries are prosecuted there ? — A. The cod, hake, pollaekJ and herring fisheries, besides haddock; but very few of them are takiu| and smoked herring are put up, and frozen herring in winter, and soiu^ few pickled herring. Q. With regard to smoked and frozen and pickled herring, who in the fishermen employed to catch them ? Where do they couie from .'- A. These are mostly natives of the island. Q. Is there any large proportion of Americans employed in fisliinl there ? — A. No ; not a large, but a very small proportion is so engaj;el Q. In your long experience in the island, how many American vessel go there for the purpose of fishing ? — A. Of vessels, scarcely any cor there ; but small open boats, of something like from 3 to 5 tons, com there occasionally from Eastport and Lubec. Q. Then the herring fishery is exclusively a fishery in which tlj natives are engaged ? — A. Yes ; nearly altogether. j Q. Do you know whether the bulk of the smoked herring is sent M AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2921 there!— A. It mostly goes to Boston and New York. This year I think that it nearly all has gone there. Q. How do they get to Boston and New York ? — A. Vessels owned at the island are employed in this trade. I think that four vessels owned there are constantly running to those points, and occasionally a vessel is chartered in this trade. Q. What sort of a trade, in the way of smoked herring, is done between Eastport and Grand Manan ? — A. Small vessels and little ves- sels run over there from that place occasionally; and some of the smaller fishermen, perhaps, take their fish over in small boats. Q. You know something about Eastport and its neighborhood ? — A, Yes; I ran a packet there for four years. Q. Do you know of any body of people — Americans — living along that coast, which depend for their livelihood on fishing in British waters ? -A. No; not to depend on Ashing in British waters ; I do not. Q. Have you been able to form anything like an estimate which you think is a just one concerning the value of the whole Grand Manan herring fishery, including the hake and pollack fisheries ? — A. I should know this pretty well, as I am among the fishermen constantly. By Mr. Thomson : Q. What is that paper which you have now in your hand ? — A. It contains some notes which I have taken down. Q. From where? — A. For Grand Manan. Q. From what? — A. They concern the quantity offish taken there. Q. What did you take them from 1 — A. My own observation, and from the amount of fish shipped, and the quantity of hake sounds taken. Q. When did you make them up? — A. Since I came here. By Mr. Trescot : Q. Can you make your statement without using this paper ? — A. Yes. [There are about 10,000 quintals of hake taken, and about 8,000 quintals of codfish ; about 400,000 boxes of herring are smoked on the average ; about $17,000 worth of frozen herring are shipped in winter ; about 4,000 barrels of pickled herring — this is a large estimate — are shipped; and tbe catch of herring wliicli are sold for bait, and other kinds of fish, such as lobsters, haddock, and pollack, &c., would aggregate in value Iprobably to 810,000. (}. To the best of your Judgment, what do you think that the Grand |Manan fisheries are worth annually ? — A. Well, to the natives alone ? Q. Yes.— A. I should say that 8150,000 a year would be a large esti- Imate for the native fisheries. Q. Do you know anything about the fisheries prosecuted on Campo- iWloaiul Deer Islands and from thence to the mainland, and from Le- |tite to Laprcau ? — A. Of course I am not so intimately actiuainted with lisfislicry as with the Grand Manan fishery; but 1 should say that leCaiiipobello and Deer Island fishery would probably equal ours in lvalue, and the fishery on the north shore, say Irom Letite to St. Au- |dre\\'s, would ])robably come to something near the same sum. Q. Suppose I were to tell you that in this fishery, from Letite and Le- Ipreauontbe mainland, and over at Grand Manan, there were caught laiinnally fish valued at $1,500,000 by British fishermen, and fish valued at Wl30,0OO by American fishermen, all in British waters, would you Itbink that it would be a correct statement ? — A. No ; I would not. Q. Have you any idea that such a thing could be true ? — A. I think pbattlie man who made that statement must have been mistaken. Q- Do you know anything about Gloucester vessels coming down fi*" -iir ■■:. ^.^ . .'■■th ]W ¥.:i :m m'^^>mk ^-4 "^i I^^T"^^'^-^ P ^^^i V ^1 V,;:i. * P: 1--. :*i -I, oqoo AWARD OF TUB FIHIIKKY COMMISHION. ^1 Htfi Htoppti)^ lit lOiiHtport, anti jfoinjj ovor to (Iniiul Miiimn with i;iist|,(,r( llHliuniKMi iviid Hciiiivs prcpmotl to llah ? — A. I nover kiunv ofiieas,. ,,1 that kind in my lit'o. (). Havo you had soino opportunity of knowing wliethrr siuili could 1h' thocaHO? — A. Yos ; bouauHo 1 am myH*;? — A. Wc cull tlitin so, They compare favorably, I supi)ose, with the lishin;; in»i)uliUit)ii {jcner ally in New Urunswick. Q.. You say that all the smoked herring which are cau{j;lit cliicihjol to New Y'ork ? — A. Yes, and to IJoston. IJoston, probably, tnkos ilie| larger share. Q. llow are they shipped ? — A. In our own vessels mostly ; t vessels,] owned on the island, run constantly to those ports. Q. Is there any particular trade between (irand Manan and EastponJ in these fish?— A. Yes; there is a small trade carried on by tlieiioorerj class of fishermen, with their small boats; they get more money tor tlieir| lish by taking them to Kastport. Q. And the better class of tlshermen are engaged in the smoked andl frozen herring business, and shipped directly to the States ?— A. Maim are not shipped by tlni natives ; Gloucester vessels generally come tlierej and buy them. Q. Why do you persist in calling the inhabitants of the ishiiul imJ fives? — A. 1 will call them either way to suit you. 1 call them iialivej because they are born there. Q. \Yhat other tish are shipped by the iidiabitants ? — A. Uako arai shipped. Q. What about pickled tish ? — A. There are not very many pickled ti>!j shipped anywhere ; there are not very many put up. Q, I untlerstood vou to sav that a (piantitv was t)ut up?— A. W^j 4,0t)0 barrels. Q. AVhat are they worth a barrel — 83, Isu|>pose? — A. Wlieii yoii atll the cost of barrel and salt, the cost may come pretty well ui> to tliitj these lish are generally sold fresh, and what is considered will iiiakef barrel then brings $1.25. Q. I am speaking of these herring when put up : 4,0i)() barrolj pickled herring are put up at Grand Manan ? — A. Yes. Q. These must be worth at least $3 a barrel ?— A. Yes, wlicnyouadi barrel and salt. Q. I am speaking of them barreled as you sell them ? — A. Well. ?- is a large average price for unpickled lish. AVVAKl) OF THE FIHIIKHY COMMIHHION. 2923 u'riciiiis !— A, Q, Am tlioso ln'iriiiK Hoiit to Noav York or HoHtuii, or wheio T — A. Xlit>v Jii'0 8tMit all nuiiMl tlio roiiiitry iiioro or Imn. 0. WluTo aro they hoiiI? — A. Homo few no to Ilosttm ; I kti(»w of jKiiiio liiiviiiK '"'♦'" ^'^"^' tluMT tlii.H .m'UHoii ; iiiiil hoiiui «<» to Mt. iloliii, >inv KriiiiHwiok,* aiitl up to tliis year noiiim liavo j^oiie to Yarriioutli, >(ivn Hi'otia. Q. Aiv iniuiy s«'nt to lOastport If — A. V«^ry few jjo there. (), I uiulerslaiitl yoii to say that from (iratid Maiiati ItHelt' very few lisli'ol aii.v kind are sent to lOastport, save a (Vnv caiij;ht by the poorer ^,|^,s,s('s ?— A- It makes in {hit afjjjn't^ate, however, t\mUi n eoiisiderahlo $11111 ol money in value, because there are acket there, and |ltlieii used to carry a good many fish as freight. (^ If there is so little trade between Eastport and (Jrand Manan, Ikv could a llsli merchant in Kastport know, by reason of the business jsodone, what the extent of the trade of the island was? — A. Well, if [liewas intimately ac(|uainted with (irand Manan fishermen ho would iroiiably ask them from time to time about it, as he saw them. y. For information only ? — A. Trobably so. (i'. It' Kastport fishermen stated that the great bulk of the fish from |riraml Manan passed through Eastport hands, would that be true ? — xV. Tliis Is not the case. (I Or anything like it? — A. No ; of course not. Q. You put the value of the whole catch ilround Grand Manan at iJOjUOO. 1 do not see how you get that, according to your figures. on put down 10,000 quintals hake; what are they worth? — A. About -jli a quintal, as they are taken from the water; that price includes lis and livers. Q. That makes $25,000 ?— A. Yes. Q. Then you take 8,000 quintals of cod ?— A. Yes. Q. How much are they worth ? — A. $4 a quintal would bo a large fstiuiate. Q. That is $32,000 ?— A. Yes. ^i:;^ -r:*'-*?. C^ ■lii m '^^Mk-±''^^ m W^,.i&yCs,mZ m 2924 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. (iisoil for bait) and mis. Yes. Q. Then there are $10,000 worth of hcrrinj celhiiieous tlsh ? — A. Yes. (^ Then there Jire $17,000 worth of frozen herring ?— A. i}. What else is there ? — A. The pickled herring. Q. These 4,000 barrels would be worth, at the outsido, $lL',(MM)f_^ They are only estimated to bo worth $1.25 when sold frcHli. Q. AVhat are the 400,000 boxes of smoked herring vvortli ?— a. Ij cents a box would be a largo estimate this year; that \n ratliur aliov the regular price. Q. That makes $ir)0,000 ; and you put down $1. '50,000 as Ujp value of the whole catch of the island f — A. Yes; and I think it is a large csti mate. Q. A very large estimate! — A. I did not say very largo, l)ut large. Q. You are making allowances, are you not? — A. I think that is a large estimate for the season. Q. And you undertake to say that the Campobello and Dooilshmtj i fishery is worth about the same, though you know nothing about it I- 1 A. I did not say so. Q. You said you were not very well acquainted with it. Did yn ever ascertain what their catch was? — X. I have been aioiuid those) islands considerably, and been among their flshermcn, and I know tli;i:| they are not more successful than our IJahermon. Q. They may have a better catch? — A. I do not think it. I kiioirj that the heft of their (Ishermen come a great deal over to Grand MaiiaaJ for fish. Q. You say that no American vessels come to Grand Manaii tolishI-| A. Very few indeed do so. Q. When do they come ; in the spring? — A. Well, tlioy do notcnmej at any i)articular season. When they hear of a school of ti.sh about! Grand IManan, a few vessels from Lubec and Eastport will run over. Q. There is no such thing as a Gloucester fleet that comes down tlnrei in the spring or fall? — A. I never saw one. I never knew one vessel to| come there from Gloucester and lish inshore. Q. Where do they lish there ? — A. Otf on the Banks, and at dittVrentj places. Q. \'ou have seen them llshing on the Banks ? — A. They cometlien and get bait, and that is the last we see of them. Q. They come to the Uanks and get bait? — A. They come thori'iiii(| get bait. Q. Where ? — A. From there they go we do not know where. Q. Where do they come for bait?— A. To Grand Manan. Tlie.vJij not catch the bait, but buy it. Q. They never fish around the island, within three miles oftli| shore ? — A. I have never seen any so fish. Q. Y"ou have never known this to be done in your life?— A. Iliii never known a Gloucester vessel fish around Grand IManan. Q. Y'ou never saw American vessels fishing around tlie island in uvJj life? — A. Within three miles of the shore; no. Q. Although you have lived there since you were 7 years old l~^ Yes. Q. How old are you ? — A. Forty-one. Q. During all this time, 34 years, you have never seen au Amiricil vessel fishing within the three-mile limit?— A. I never saw one dor myself. Q. I suppose that you never heard of one doing so ?— A. I do know as I ever did — that is, a Gloucester vessel. AWARD OF Tin: FISHERY COMMISSION. 2925 0 The boats do somotimes, 1 Hiipposo, «;()mo ovjm' tV(nn tlio Americftn mil to ll."*li tliorcf— A. Vos, but very lew; tln'su Imvo ulway-s been Miiiill. opi'ii l»)i»t«, with fU«Mi»'s. (). Tlien tilt' American pcojjlo who llvt' iiloiig the siiort's about ICast- mill iiiul IiUl><'<'i ""*l Hway on towards the wt'stward, you say, do not s(ii(l boats over there at all .' — A. 1 «li»l not say that they did not sond tllflll itt idl> (I. lint joii say very few do so?— A. Small boats come over there lf,„',i ilifVereiit places ; there is not a very larjjo tlshin^ population on that const. Q, Why tlo they send boats over there, if they have {jood fishing on tliiirowii coast f — A. 1 do not know that they have; 1 ditl not say so. Q. Do you think that they have good fishing on their own coast ? — A. Atcortain seasons thoy may have u considerable herring fishery up that const in the tall. Q, In your judgment, is the lierring fishery bettor on the American Icoast than it is around Grand Manan ? — A. It is not so long. There is a jbody of herring which comes on the sea coast along from Mount Desert to Cape Cotl, to spawn, late in the fall; this is a very heavy body of fish, [buttboy do not last a great while. Q. They come on the American coast altogether! — A. They come on he American coast. (^1. In the neighborhood of Eastport ? — A. No. (). la tliere any good fishing at Eastport, and westward of Lubec ? — |A, flieir tishing, 1 should think, is very poor there. Q. With revspect to all kinds of fish 1! — A. Yes ; from Mount Desert |to llastport. Q. Ill this quarter fishing of all kinds is poor ? — A. Yes. Q. You only put down 400 peoi)le as engaged in the Grand Manan liliery?— A. 1 think that is a large estimate — 400 men engaged in fish- ID?. ' Q. Has i been your special business to find out how many quintals, arrels, and boxes of fish are taken at Grand Manan ?— A. 1 judge irj iis regard by former years. I used to trade considerably. 1 bought pearly all the hake every season. I Q, Are the results of former years a good guide when the fisheries laiige every year ? — A. We can tell that this year — 5,000 pounds of loumls have been prepared. •^ Do you buy the sounds? — A. No; but I am acquainted with the keutlmt buy tliem, and I know how many pounds they buy. [Q. Wucrodid you get the figures which you have on your paper, »I— A. I took them down from my memory. |(). Why did you so put them down, if you took tliom from your nicai- r I-A. I did so to refresh my memory. [Q. What object could you have in refreshing your memory, if it can tie you to put such figures down without looking at any papers ' — If you examine the papers, you will find that 1 have made no mis- Ike!!. jQ. What did you take them down for ? — A. To refresh my memory. IQ. From what paper? — A. I did not get them from any paper. 1'^ Did you read any of the evidence which has been taken before the |iiimissiou, before you came here ? — A. I read several of these depo- lious. IQ. Whose ?— A. I read that of Walter McLaughlin. !<• 1^0 you know Walter McLaughlin ? — A. Yes : I am acquainted Ptlihiiii. i -'^ ,-.. \ V..., ^-^Sr. ■ h:\ '^-rm. !i ..:*^^ ■t^m-' .' m ''?;*i smmamrX'- Wf^ .;»■.■ J*' *1 -*t**^,i il-K- ,^«»- 29JG AWARD OK TIIK FI8IIKRY COMMISSION. i).. Is ho a rcHpoctablo niiiH 7 — A. Ych; very. i}. Hois UnIi wardoii tlioro? — A. Yos. (J|. Ho ^<)(>s iiroiind uiul col loots inroriiiiitioii rroiii tln^ iiili:i1)itaiitsas lo tlio (iiuuitily of llsli takoii f — A. I havo hoard of liiin (l(>iii;,' so iiiypms past. i).. Is ho a trnthl'ul tiiaii and woll spoUoii of wlniro you nni?— a. i[,, iiov(>r told iiio a lii^ that i know of. i).. Havo yon ovor hoon on Wui niainlainl at all ? — \. I havt^ (^>. Havo yon ovor l>iM«n in tlu^ n«M^hl>oi'l»ood of wiioro Mr. ,lain(>s |;, IMoliOan oarrios oii hnsinoss f — .V. I havo Ikmmi np thoro oi-casioiiuHv. (^>. How Ion;;' sinoo y(Mi last won^ thoro ? — A. I oanm by llicn! iii the stoamor tho other «hiy. Q. I tloi'*i. moan ooininffby in tho stoain(M',bnt whon wonwoii thcic!- A. I don't know that I havo boon tlion^ lor two yoars on sImiic. I).. Woro yon ovor at his plaoo of Imsinoss? — A. Nov(U', I lliink. I). VVhoro is liis plaoo of l)nsinoss? — A. liC^titt^ an. How lonjj sinot^ yini woro last at Hack Hay? — A. I iiovt'i' wiis ashoro in Hack Hay in my lito. Q. Woro yon ovor ashoro 'tnywhon^ from St. (ioor;;;o to Ijcpivaii'- A. Yos. i}.. Wh'M'o? — A. I havo boon ashoro at IWMivor Harbor. {).. Is JW'avor Harbor a larf^o tlshin}? plaoo? — A. Tlioy liave sorae | vossols. l^>. How lonj; wo»dd yon slay tli«M'o ? — A. I wont into harbor tliore, Q. Yon wont into harbor If Is that tho oxtoiit of yonr kno\vkMi;,'eof| tho mainland T — \. No. I am aotpiaintod with Molioan and witha iiiiin- bor of tishornion that bolonj; ovor on that slioro. (}. From yonr pors«)nal knowlod|j[of Havo yon any por.soiial kiiowll odfjo apart trom what yon may havo ao(]nirod talking; to these people !- A. I havo qnito a knowlodjjo of how many aro onjja}j«id in the lisliingj and I know thoy aro m)t moro siumh'ssIuI than onr own llslieriucii. i). How lonj; sinco you last woro thoro on tho mainland?— A. Well,| it has boon, I snpposo, two y(Mirs. i). Yon know JNIoLoan ? — A. 1 know IMoLoan, not intirnatoly. ntMpuuntod with him. 1 havo mot him at Kastport, and at utn- own place] this summer. Q. Did you ovor talk to him ? — A. Yos. Q. I suppose it is possible he is as well informed as to the value of thej lishories on the mainland as you are? — .V. Ho may be. Q. Probably better? — A. Ho probably has his idea and 1 have iniiie.j Q. That is not tho question. I ask you whether ho is any better ablej to j:rivo an opinion as to tho value of tiie fisheries on the ninliilivml tlianj you ? — A. He may bo better able. Q. Have yon any doubt that he has better nu'ans of iiiforaiatioii tliaii| yon 1 — A. I don't know that ho has bettor means. Q. Although he resides there ami oarries on business there ?-Aj Well, there is a largo extent of coast. LTo is louated at one place,! he i8 ai» far from tho extl'omes as I am . Q. What part of the coast of tho maitdand have you any acquaintancaj with there ? — A. Peer Island and Campobello. Q. Do you call Deer Island a part of the mainland ? — A. Well,!'" Andrew's ; I have run a packet there three or four years. Q. Aud running a packet would give >()U a knowledge of the fisliii business, you think. When did \,on stoj) running the packet ?-A. I have not run it for two years. (^ Uow long \^-ore you running it before that ?t-A. Four years. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2927 (), For the liiNt two yoJirH you havo Htoppcd ? — A. YoH. Q, And till' only iih^hiih of inforiiialioii you liavc^ uh to tlio fiHli(;rio.s ut St. Amirow's is that you liavo ruti a |>ackrt botwti (Vraiid Manaii ami St,Ainlr«w'.s?— A. Y»»h; and bou^iit IIhIi wliilo I waH iiiiiuinf^. Q. WliiitotlHT piaciiH liavciyoii knowhulK*' "I? — A. What other placscH (loyoiMvniita knowliMln*' ol? (», 1 want you to toll nio what knovvlcd^jo you havo. I Hhouhl want I voii to liiivc a Unowlrdjjfo of th<^ whohi inaiidand boCoro you rnum licro rtn'conlriitli('totluii' wilurHscs. — A. Do tluiso witnoHS(!s have a knowl('d/<(j [of tlicwiioln inaitiland If Q, Tliitso who liavo K'voM (n'idoii(!o have. What other |)hiees do you hiiow Itctwceii St. Aiulrow'H and tlio heailwaters? — A. With the- whole of St. ('>'(>< ^ Kiver I am more or less aequainted. >St. iSt,<>plieii. Q.St. Stephen i.s not a ll.sliiii^ jthuH) at all. — A. II' you will name laiivpiuticnliu- place. i^). If y<)» have a know!e«l{je of tiie mainland, you aro better able to iiiiiiu'tiit'in tlian I. — A. I have told you I wa.s not very well aequairited mitlil!a(;k Hiiy. Q. AroyoM acnpiainted at all with the li.sluMie.s at Haiik I'.ay ? — .\. I lainacqiiaiiitHl with the liHheriueu. Q. TlioiiyoM i)ut your opinion as refjardn the maiii!-»:i-. • V - m'' ■ ijiiii Hi;': 2928 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. have altered your views if you had ?— A. No ; mv fully stating what is false, or else has not the means of information !-. A. I have nothing to say of anybody else's statements. Q. Did you see that some of the American fishermen had themsehtj put it at five hundred thousand dollars a year ? — A. Xo. Q. Wouldn't it views are fixed. Q. They were fixed before you came? — A. I didn't come to luakeanv mistatements. Q. Where did you read the evidence ? — A. Some of it in the other room. Q. Whoso evidence did you read? — A. McLaughlin's and McLean's and part of Fisher's. Q. Did you read Lord's ? — A. No. Q. Have you read Fisher's ? — A. I read part of it. Q. Now, Fisher says, in answer to Mr. Trescot — I suppose he has a knowledge of the island, has he ? — A. Ele should ; he has fished there a considerable many years. Q. He is asked, "What would be the annual value of the fishery at Grand Manan, taking the onposite coast, and taking the ueigbborbood generally, from your experience as a man of business with some practi cal acquaintance with the operations yourself as a merchant I What would be the annual value, including Grand Manan and the coast from Letite to 8t. Andrew's and Lepreau?" And he answers: "I should set the value of the fish ought at Grand Manan at not over §400,000. They might go $500,000, but I think if I had $500,000 I would have some left." — A. I should taink he would. Q. You see he puts it at $500,000 ?— A. He says " not over $400,00*)," Q. He says it might go $500,000. Do you mean to say that be woalJ state it was not over $400,000, and it might go $500,000, when it was only $150,000? Would he cover that meaning with those words?-! I have nothing to do with any other man's statement here. If what I say conflicts with any other man's statement it is not my fault. Q. You won't give any judgment upon that point? — A. I haveuotli ing to say. Q. Well, why did you answer Mr. Trescot when he put questions to you as to other persons coming here and making particular statcmeutst Mr. Trescot. I did not do it. Mr. Thomson. You said you would not give him any particular names, but if persons came here and swore that such and such was the case, you asked him if that would be correct. Mr. Trescot. Quite so. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Then Mr. Fisher is entirely astray according to you ?— A. B statement is lafge. Q. What is the extent of your business? You say you kept a hoK during the summer and fished in the winter. Where did yon tish wliei ever you went? — A. For herring ? Q. Yes. What is the extent of your catch ?— A. Well, I coiilil iw say exactly — I never kept any minutes — but I might have got worth for my share. Q. Is that the extent of your fishing ? — A. Yes. Q. Now, there is Mr. Lakeman. Do you know him ? — A. Yes; lai well acquainted with him. Q. This question is put to him : Q. How much do these Bevenil totals make? — A. $133,4^0. (.f. Think a little, aud think what you meaut by telliug U3 a few m uutcsajiiiii AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2929 mation ]~ themselves \. No ; my 0 make any n tbe oilier (1 McLeau's, 9se be has a isbed there a he fishery at ueigbborhood 1 some practi' haut! What! the coast from '■ cs: "I should j )ver §400,0 I would bave | over 8400,OOfi: j^ that be would I )0, when it was j se words ?-A. re. If ^ba^n fault. . ihaveuotli- >Ht questions to I liar statcnieuts!" irticular naraej,! \\i was the vm YOU ?-A. Ion kept a m byoutishffW [ell, 1 couUl H have got ?- Bi-mitc8ai'"H nvnnr opinion, the value of the cntoh of the fisheries of Grand Manan Island only inminted to A.'iO.OOC or at the most to ^60,000 f— A. $,')00,000 1 meant ; did I say $50,000 ? If I did, that "was a slip of the tosgue, and if I said $60,000 I meant $600,000, 0 Tliat i» tlie annual proceeds of the Grand Manan fisheries? — A. No; the value oi the hiko-sounds is yet to be considered. He ,»ut8 it down at $.500,000 without the hake sounds. You think that is quite wild? — A. 1 think you must bave confused him. Q. So. This was Mr. Tresoot examining him ? — A. I think his head was not clear. Q lie was entirely wrong about that ? — A. I think the statement was wild' when he says 8500,000 or $600,000. Mr. Trescot. Didn't he try afterward to give tbe items and find that heeoiild not bring them over $160,000 ? Mr. TH03IS0N. Did you bring this gentleman to show that Lakemau was entirely wrong? Q. Then you say you catuh $200 worth in the course of a year ? Do you buy any ? — A. 1 am not engaged in buying at present. I bave boiigbt. Q. How long since you were last engaged in buying 1 — A. When I was running a packet 1 bought more or less. Q. For the purpose of cooking in your vessel ? — A. No ; to sell again. Q. How many would you buy ? — A. I never kept any minutes of what 1 bought or sold. I don't know what bearing it has on this subject. Q, Just this. That you were pleased to state in answer to Mr. Trescot that you engaged in buying and selling. I want to see to what extent I you bought and sold. You got two or three barrels of fish and sold tliemat St. Andrew's? — A. No; we sold them at Eastport. It would I glut tbe market at St. Andrew's. Q. Do you make the statement that two or three barrels would glut Itlie market at St. Andrew's 1 That is a town of 3,000 or 4,000 iuhab- litants, and yet you say it would glut the market ? — A. I say we sold jtliem at Eastport. Q, How many did you sell ? — A. I never kept any record of what I Isold. Q. Can you swear to 50 barrels ? — A. I can't swear to any particular Iqiiiiiitity. Q. Will you swear you sold as many as 50 ? — A. I will swear I have as many as that, (>. And what did you catch those herring for, those you fished your- If!— A. I caught them to sell. ',>. When you say you tished in winter, did you make a business of Jtl-A. We went fishing in winter. (^ You say "we." Are you speaking of yourself personally? — A. ^%'enerally lisb in company there; two or three boats .fishing. (i>. And your share amounted to $200, probably, a year, and with this xpcrieiice yon come and say that the fishery is only worth $150,000, mltliat you iiave lived there 34 years, and yet during all that time loi) never saw an American vessel fishing around Grand Manan. — A. I pill a Gloucester vessel. [ Q I put the question to you whether you had seen an American ves- [Mr, Dana. And every time he answered he confined his answer to Jloucester vessels. By .Mr. Thomson : [Q. Yoii told me in so many words that during that whole time no ■iiericau vessel fished within the limits, and that you never heard of 184 F i4ft#'^-^-'- .i^ ^^ I 'Wi' •■*i r1 t-f*-^*^ ■ a : 1 *-. nk •it- tt* 2930 ■HM AWARD OF THE Fl.SIIERY COMMISSION. it. — A. I said Gloucester vessels. You asked me if there was not a larjje tleet of CJloucester vessels. Q. I asked you as to American vessels. — A. As I uiidt rstood, vun referred to the Gloucester fleet ; if there was uot u large Gloiiet'stcr littt that came down. (j. Then I understand you now to admit that American vossols. nut from Gloucester, do come f — A. 1 said a few small vessels and Itoats, Q. What do you call a few small vessels ? Just exchuh' tlic boats from your mind altogether. — A. Well, perhaps there might l>e a dozin. There mi^ht be a dozen vessels from Lubec. Q. At one time? — A. Yes. Q. Fishing ? — A. Fishing off and on. Sometimes they would set ueis for bait and go away off. Q. Would they fish within three miles ? — A. They would not cod tisk within three miles. Q. That is an e%'asion. "Who asked about cod-lisliiiig .'—A. 1 said they set their nets inshore and took bait. Q. Would they lish within three miles? — A. No; they would only set their nets for bait to catch line-rtsh. Q. That is what the Gloucester vessels did, didn't they .'—A. No. never knew Gloucester vessels set nets to catch bait for thcnisi'lves. Q. How many Gloucester vessels come down to catch bait .'—A. It is | hard to average. Some years more and some years less. Q. What season is it that they come down ? — A. Along early in the | spring they begin to come, after the frozen season is o\ er, and alouj; through the winter occasionally a vessel. Q. ITow many would come down at one time? — A. I nniy have seenj ten vessels lying at one time — never more than that that 1 rt'coiioct, Q. Will you swear you have not seen as many as 25 or 3(i?— A. ij would be quite safe in swearing so, I think. Q. Is ten the largest number you are certain of? — A. Ten is the largest! number I think. Q. How long would they remain? — A. It depended upon tlie bait. Q. Did they come in and give their orders for bait ? — A. They caiuej in and tried to engage a boat. Q. Did they tell each fisherman or a number of fishermen bow iiiiin.^ barrels they wanted ? — A. Yes. Q. And then these fishermen tried to catch bait for them ?— A. Ye*. Q. They would come down in fleets of ten at a time ?— A. I saidit^ was as many as I had seen. Q. And their place would be supplied with ten more when they iveoj away ', — A. Well, it might hap|)en once in the year that there were teij I said they came down (juite early in the spring. Q. Didn't you tell me a while ago that you never heard of tlieOIo^ cester fleet coming down there at all ? — A. No ; I said not to tlsli. Q. You didn't swear to me that you never heard of the Gloiuejte fleet coming down to Grand Manan ? — A. 1 said fishing. Q. Is there not a cert.ain fleet that comes down there aiidi.sH known to come down there? — A. 1 have known as high probably a.t| [ioii tl»e bait. A. TbeyMinel i-meu bovy i«My| Lm ?-A- }'', {—A. 1 ''^'"n Iwlieu tbey «»] there weve ttf lan\ of tbel.lo^ liot to tisb. If the eiU)Ucesi< [iiere atulisH probably asM jiue ili>^^'" '^''^ Ltheinbabiw"! ■ tleetasfai^'* ^e the inbabitM l\. Ve.s Q, Uow iiiiich do tbey pay a barrel ? — A. So iiiiich a liiiudred gen- No. 70. JosEiMi KowE, of Gloucester, !Ma.ss., called on behalf of the Govern- ment of the United State.s, sworn and examined. ]]y Mr. Foster: Que.stioM. Your name ia Joseph. There is a Samuel Rowe in Glou- ,,,.^ter ?— Answer. Yes ; he is a brother of mine. (J. You belong to the firm of Howe «S: Jordan? — A. Yes. t). Von were born in Glouciester ? — A. Yes. {}, How old are you ? — A. Fifty two, come December. (>, In early life you were a fisherman for a good many years ? — A. It was always my business, fishing, from a boy. {}. What was the first year you were in the Gulf of St. Lawrence! — A. 183(i. il How many years have you been there, in all, for mackerel ? — A. Twenty-one. Q. When were you first a skipper in the gulf? — A. In 1S48. Q. From 1818 how numy continuous years did you go as skipper in the gulf —A. Sixteen. Q. Ending in what year? — A. 18G4. (}. In 18(54 you ceased to go to sea ? — A. Yes. Q. What firm did you go into? — A. Rowe & Smith. Q, How long were j'ou in that? — A. Three years. Q. Tiien in 1807 what did you establish ? Y'our present firm ? — A. That would be 1808. Q. How many vessels has your firm usually had ? — A. We have had from eijrlit to thirteen. Q, I believe when you were in the gulf you were one of the successful ones I— A. Well, yes; I always got a good voyage. Q. Take the last year you were there ; how many mackerel did you get!— A. One thousand one hundred barrels. Q. Ill two trips? — A. Well, we went two trips ; we sent home one of Itliem, and took the other home ourselves. Q. Where were tho.se 1,100 caught? — A. They were all caught at the Magdalens, except 100 barrels, or a little over 100 — 103, 1 think. (J. Where were those caught ? — A. At M irgaree, and from Margaree lo Mabou. Q. How long were you taking these 103 barrels ? — A. One day. Q. How near shore? — A. Well, we commenced about three miles, IS near as I can recollect ; but we went nearer than that, not over a iile, '^ That (lay's fishing was inshore ? — A. All inshore. 'i'. What month was it in ? — A. In October. Q. Now, without dwelling in detail uiK)n jour seventeen j'ears' ex- !rieiH'e as skipper, I want to know where your chief fishing-grounds [ereiluriiig those seventeen years? — A. My chief fishing ground was in leMafjdaU'ns, although 1 have got trips in the bend of the island, and nave gone on the Banks Bradley and Orphan. Early trips always oa Nicy and Orphan, and poor maekerel. Q' l>o you mean early in the summer ? — A. Early in the spring. [Q. \^he^e did you get the best maekerel ? — A. The best mackerel iu Matter years was at the Magdalens, although I have caught as good 'uf bend of the island as I have ever caught anywhere, and I have |iglit as good at Cape Breton as ever anywhere. llfJirV^^^fSf^ti' iriKifif^-f^ rS'.'*^ ■•■**■ j ■s-Ji . ^•*-.. -jf--"**!.' fMrnn.^ 4'»"* i^m' .'• ilf-KI? 1i|, ■f-t,.-;!.' !:m 2932 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. At what particular place at the Magdalens did you get the best mackerel ? — A. Bird Kock, I believe, was the best I would say anywhere. I suppose Bird Rock mackerel were a little ahead, but not a {>ioat diai of these mackerel are caught there. Q. What mackerel are there anywhere that compare with tiio Bin] Kock mackerel ? — A. Block Island miickerel are the only mackerel 1 ever siw. Q. But, except that, Bird Rock is as good as you have ever seen .'- A. There is but very few of that kind anywhere, but there were luureaf Block Island than at Bird Rock. Q. Now, explain as to your fishing in the bend of the island. Hot much fishing have you done there, and at what distance from tlio shore have you ^anerally fished ? — A. I don't remember ever cutchin;,' any mackerel of any account nearer than from six to seven miles, aithoiiftii I might have caught a few. We always went in and came out of har bors, but I never thought of heaving to and trying for them until we were six or eight miles off. Q. What is the difficulty fishing within three miles of the bend of the islr:. I ■ . vessel? — A. Well, I never found any difficulty in fish ing in, u *I) . "T-el were there, but the mackerel is scattered, what there is tht^i c 'ri.. re is no body of them. There are more outside. Q. How far out do you go to get a body of mackerel large enough to make it p<' a vessel to fish ? — A. From six to fifteen miles, Fitteeii miles just d. i e of '' land, so that you can just see New London Head. That is a better f ac.i g ground than anywhere else around tlie island. We always matte 2s cw London Head our mark. Q. How high is the land at New London Head ? — A. Not very hi{;li. but it shows more prominently than the other laud around. You cau see that further than the land on each side of it. Q. Well, how many years do you suppose of the sixteen or seventeen you were skipper did you fish in the bend of the island ? — A. Well, I never fished the whole year through. I suppose I fished more or les> there for six or seven years. I could not say just the number of years, Q. Have you ever fished up Bay Chaleurs ? — A. No ; I never caught ten barrels there in my life. Q. Have you been up there ? — A. Twice only. Q. J)id you try for fish If — A. I tried both times I went. Q. But unsuccessfully ? — A. 1 never thought much of it. Q. Have you ever fished up the Gulf of St. Lawrence, oil' Sevea Islands, so called ? — A. I have been there one year. Q. When was that ? Do you remember what year it was ?— A. Will I think it was in 1802. Q. What did you succeed in doing up by the Seven Islands in ISO-'-j A. I caught 180 barrels. We were off Fox Itiver, on the oiiposite siilf,] on the south side of the gulf. Q. How near inshore .'—A. We caught SO barrels within a quarter oi a mile of land. Q. The rest, how far out ?— A. The others fifteen miles oft", ri^rht oi into the gulf; that is, I think about that. The laud is very high. might have been further, but we were wide out. Q. What is the width across there ? — A. I think it is about, I s judge, sixty or seventy miles. Q. From Seven Islands apross to what point?— A. To Fox I!iv (Witness consults map, and points out the places where the lish ffti caught.) \H wm oil "Pliadfot '"tliehav '.'. Were AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2933 Q. How many have you caught iu the vicinity of Seven Islands? — A. I iit'ver caufjht any there. Q. In wliat places in the fjulf, ao far as you know, are the most mack- orol caujrlit within three miles of the shore? — A. About Capo Breton, as far as '".v experience goes. Q. Near what point? — A. From Mabou to INIargaree is the best i>lace. Q. At what part of the season do they catch these there t — A. I uever went tliere to tish until October. Q. How long did you ever stop there? — A. Never long at one time. Tlie mackerel strike there; they may be plenty today and gone to- morrow. Q. That is where you got your 103 barrels iu 1861 ? — A. Yes ; that tilled me up. Q. How many mackerel, on an average, must a Gloucester vessel take before there is a profit to the vessel ? 1 understand that this is a ques- tion that does not admit of a definite answer, but 1 want to draw out your opinion. — A. it is hard to determine. There is some difference in the prices. Q. Yes, there is a difference in the price and quality. — A. There is also aditterence in the bills; but if we don't get 400 barrels we don't calcu- late we are going to do much. Q. You wer^ iu the Gulf of St. Lawrence most of the time during the Reciprocity Treaty, and you were th'Hc a number of years before. I suppose you knew about the cutters and the driving off" of the tisher- uieu that came within 3 miles ? — A. Yes. Q. You were not there during the license seasons, because you left in 1SG4. Now, what is your view as to the importance of the restriction agiiinst fishing within 3 uiiles to the United States lishermeu ? — A. What was that ? Q. How much consequence, in your judgment, is the prohibition to fish within the 3mile limit to the United States fishermen ? — A. Well, if 1 was going myself, I should not consider it anything worth paying for; bnt as I am situated now, I think I should be willing to pay, per- haps, .10 cents a ton. Q. What is the difference between going yourself and sending your captains? — A. We have skippers that sometimes go in and try when tbereis no occasion for it. If they try and are taken, it is Just as bad as if they caught lish. If I went myself, I would not be running that risk. Q. You think you could fish successfully without going within 3 miles?— A. 1 do. . How many had you ou our shore ? — A. Five. Q. What did they do ?— A. They got 3,044. Q. Go ou to 1875. — A. We had one in the bay and got 153 barrels. j}*e had four on our shores, and got 3,784 barrels. In 1870 we had none |iu the buy. On our shore we had five, and got 5,578. Q. Were those seiners ? — A. All seiners. ■l-4'l.^/ J, ■■*■ ■ •*> „ *f' »*;^ ' *^::;^ ^_':^ ;, ^ mi , *-*:'*f 'j , y^i '^' .:-■■ ', '".r'".- ' ,'i ■i^ ^ ■■'„ ■' '■ .'<■ . :i '^.,, ■ ,■ - -i--'-- « ■»■'■••■' .'\ ',#t--*^ -^ :, ..■^*^..'^^..^-^\ -•J |P;p^?i;.iift4«^^%-5^^ '" " < <.A j,,a«J.-^-,, ■ .,-^j;^. ,^.««jr**%i ' .. A' . : pi ^ilk-Af^'-j:^^-^ ■ i- IH omrMmmwrxiigvmimam^ -j'TT^-^'lrnii^'diTlW— if&^^^^^M MeM^M^ '^"K-'^m'^fi :.■ '„«H, ^^- 2934 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 111: Q. In 1877 how many have you had in the bay ? — A. Wo Lave liad four. Q. Now, tell me how yon happen to have sent them to tlio jrnlt tbis year after your better experience on our shores and poor ('xptiiiiicc in the bay for the two previous years ? — A. Well, our vessels wont south early in the season to run fresh mackerel to New York. The mackerel were plenty, and they expected a big catch ; but in June, whfu \veoiij.'lif to have caught them, we caught none, and reports came down tliat the mackerel were plenty this way. We therefore supposed they had passcil into the gulf. Q. What do you mean by reports coming ? — A. Well, we got word from the strait. We had no letters, but we always hear, and as a mat ter of fact there was mackerel here in Juno, and those that came down early got trips of mackerel, poor mackerel. But when our vessel j;ot down thej' were gone, and they have been scarce ever since. Q. L«^t me see what your vessels have done this year. — A. The Helm ]\r. Crosby took eight barrels. She was in something over a l'ortnij;lit, She had gone in and tried all around the bay and found there was iiutli ing ; came out and fished on our shores. Q. Did she have any better luck there? — A. Yes ; she packed out 7oii barrels before I came away, besides what she got in the bay. Q. What other schooner ? — A. The Golden Hind. She came iu jii>it before I came away, with 75 barrels. Q. How long was she getting these! — A. About eight weeks. Q. What other vessels ? — A. The Herbert M. Kogers ami the Barni couta. They are not at home. I heard the Barracouta had IdO, ami the other 215. Q. How long has the Herbert M. Rogers been in the gnlt .'—A. lie wrote the day before the breeze. They had a gale down there. 1 thiuk it was the 22d of September. Q. How long has she been in the gulf ? — A. I thiidv about Ave weeks, Q. Has she got back ? — A. No ; slie hadn't got home when 1 left, but j at last accounts she had a little over 200 barrels. Q. Now, are the seines succeasfnl in the gulf? — A. They never bavej been. 1 don't think they can seine there to make it pay. Q. Did these vessels of yours go prepared to seine? — A. The IJeleiij M. Crosby and the Herbert M. Rogers carried seines. Tlie Herbert 31. | Rogers never set hers at all. That is, tlie skipper by letter said seine was no good, and he went down to Souris and landed it. Q. And caught his tisli with hook and line ? — A. Yes, Q. Why are not seines successful in the gulf? — A. Well, the wateri,*! shoal and the bottom rough. There are several causes. If you guoffl in deep water on Bradley or Orphan there are a great many hemiii;tliiiij get mixed up with the mackerel. They mesh in the seine, and it tnkrij so long to pick them out. They die and sink the seine. Q. Something has been said about making shoal seines, to adapt tin to the gulf fishing. — A. Well, they can catch a few tliat way, bur iti5| pretty hard to catch mackerel in a shoal seine, that is, the purse-seine. Q. How much importance do you attach, as a man engaged in tifl fishing business, to the mackerel fisheries in the Gulf of St. Lawivi now ? — A. Well, I don't thiidi much of it. It has gone down. It iKell to be worth somethirig once, but of late yesirs we don't think anyrliiDij of it at all. We could do about as well without seining there. Q. Wliat proportion of your business is mackerel and wiiat pro|M)rt;oi| is codfish ? — A. Well, I should say one-third of the proceeds is niaiktrfl and two-thirds codfish. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2935 Q. Ill money value ? — A. Yes. {}. Have you ever sent to Grand ^lanan vessels for herring ? — A. Wo liave sent once or twice. Q. Did they go to catch lish, or how did they get them ? — A. They always bouji'lit them. We always seat the money. Q.Did they go with any preparation for fishing ? — A. Not any at all. We never tlumght of such a thing. Q, Have you ever been yourself or sent a vessel to Newfoundland tor beniiig ? — A. I have been once myself and sent some two or three winters. Q, Uow were the herring procured there ? — A. They were always hoiigbt. We never made preparations to flsh. (,t. Well, were you ever personally engaged in halibut lishing ? — A. Yes. I u.sed to go to the George's Banks a good many years. Q. Dow far are the George's Banks from Seal Island ? — A. 70 miles, as near as I can recollect. Q. How near Seal Island can you go? — A. I have been two or three trips when I could just see the light, on a clear night. Right on the eilije of the ground, right on the faTlingoff, there is where the halibut used to be taken when I was there. But I don't think there is any there now. It was broken up. It didn't last but three or four years when I was there. Q. Then you don't consider it a fishing ground, even 15 miles from Seal Island Light ? Did you ever tish within three miles for halibut .' — A. Never. Q, How many halibut fishers are there from Gloucester? — A. 28, I believe. The number shifts a little. 1 think two or three more have been added. Q. How recently have you built a Ashing schooner in Gloucester or had one built .' — A. We had one built last winter. (}. When was she completed ? — A. In April, I think. (^ Now what was the size, and what was the cost? — A. She was 7-1 tons, new measurement. (}. lieglster, 1 suppose? — A. 110 carpenters'. (>. What did she cost ?— A. A little over .-=(7,200. 'i>. In bargaining for building a schooner, you bargain to pay by car- Ipenters' ineasureiiient ? — A. Yes. ',». How much a ton, carpenters' measurement ? — A. Well, it differs ; |*lJto847 a ton. . But you must have paid more for this ? — A. You have to rig it laiterwards. That is simply for the hull. We paid 8 1,9.")0 for her. We luever reckon by the ton. We give the dimension.s, what we want, and jthevgiveus the figures what they will build her for. k*' What does that include ? — A. The hull and spars. Q. Was that as low as a vessel that size, first class, could be built Itliisyeariu Gloucester ? — A. Ye.s, sir; it was. They might since that, iperhaps, build for a dollar less on the ton. Perhaps a difference of 8200 jifiiKlit be made in the whole cost. They might build a vessel that size |ii'!w for *7,000. Q. Do you know the quality of the schooners built here in the prov- PDie!_A. Yes; I think I do. 'i'. How many uow schooners built here have you seen ? Have you ^eu the best built here within a year or two ?— A\ No. Q. i'on would know whether they have altered materially or not ? — Tbey are generally built of what we call hard wood, that is. Ashing- :zZ^^^ :i??t?v^,.: * c;j-:--ftfi-.,^ :,rt*i' t4: ^¥t 2936 AWAUD OF THE FIHIIKUY COMMISSION. vosnHh; of coiu'HO tlioy have .soft-wood vessels, too. Tlicy ImiIM „[ beeeli or bireli. Q. Wliiit are the (Jlouecster vessels built off — A. Wliilc oak inostlv, niHl livny oak. Q. How much dillerencfe iu the tonnage wouhl .you eNliniiitc ji, Hh. cost of a (iloutTster and u provincial vessel, such as .von liavc ict'cinii to? — A. 1 suppose a provincial vessel, in the b(\st wa.v it could lie l)iiilt-_ we always calculate one of our vessels twi'lve y«!ais old is us {rood, ,, one of tlu'irs new <»f the same Idnnagc, and I j^uess iivcry one else, vcs sel owners tluit know, will say the same. I don't- know. i). What do you say about the 'i''»f deal. Q. \\'hy ? — A. Well, there are dilVerent opinions, dincieni misoiis Souie lay it to the lake-lishini;, the whitetlsh. i). What do you know abcmt the (puintities of these?— A. Well, 1 don't knowanythinji; by experience only what I hear said by tlitMlcultrs out there. They tell mo, those that have gone out there from our idncc und are iu the business, that a great many are caught and tiiat tli(\van' Hold cheap, and take the place of mackerel unless maiOierel arc lovv. Q. At what price per barrel can a large <|uantity of salt nia(;k(>ivl \w disposed of freely in the market ? — A. \N'ell, they don't go v«My icudily. Q. Until they are down to ^1 ? — A. Well, that is a large aiiioiuit. Q. Sohl from where ? — A. From our place. That is about what tlicv ranged last year, and they went oil", very well. This year tliey went ii|i to $12, and were very scarce, and the market dragged. Kiiially, tlim went down to S5>..^0. Q. Why will not the jieople buy them at the high prices ? — A. 1 don't know any reason uidess they get these lake tish cheaper. Q, What quantity of high-priced mackerel, extra No. I's, mess mack' erel of the very best «' '"<""'> '•^•S <>•' *^'x .yours, i), Wliat <'lVt>(;t ill your Jii(i(;iiH>iit woiihl tlio liiipositioii of n tliity of «'a liariTl oil all ^'nidcs of iiia<'.)v(>n>l imported IVoiii tlut proviiicres iiiivo tlu> market in liie lliiitinl Htiiles If — A. Well, I siippo.s(> it would tli(M>tl*'ct of lowering.; tlietii some.. It is pretty li;ird to d to pay the duty ? Would it come (Mil of tlie wiiplt' tliat eat it or out of the provincial sellers f — A. I should say out ,,t ilio provincial sellers. (^ Why— what makes you think so? — A. Wo tak(! the most mack- (ivl, and our mackerel «let(Miuiin's the pricie. (}, Don't you think they <;ould raise tlit^ price of theirs and yoiu-s all .,„iiii„l »_A. No; I don't think it (;ould be done, because \v«! have the uio>t tish. [}. Well, if a duty of a d(dlar a barrel wore imposed on herrinj;, do you tliiiik it could be imitorted? — A. No; 1 don't think it could. It is a Idwprii'ed tish, {}. Iliivo you ever known mixed trips of cod and mackerel where a vessel went out to catch whichever it could and brought back part of a caijioof wieh kiml ? — A. Well, I don't know that I ever knew. 1 have iicanlot' KOMie tell about {^oiiijj; some years half and half, but I guess it never iunoiiii ted to much. (). lias any such tiling happened from Oloucoster? — A. I haven't heiiid of one ibr a groat many years. Q. Wliiit has been the course of their (ishing down in Massachusetts jWiiiparcd with Gloucester; have they increaseil ordecrease*! '. — A. They liave decreased. Q. The liusiuess has concentrated in (iloucester? — A. Yes. by Mr, Davies: Q. Are you a protectionist or free-trader in principle? — A. A free- trailer. Q. Do you believe in free trade? — A. I do. I think there ought to Jflree trade all over the world. Q. You think so ? — A. Yes ; I would like to .see it no. Q. In your own country are you a free-trader or a protectionist ? — A, I'll, as far as lish goes I Q' ^'o; {ji'iierally. — A. Well, I am a protectionist, if that is the case, luk'ss it would be all over the whole world. Q. 1 notice iu your statement that the prices of the mackerel seem to. liictiiate ii {-reat deal. Last year it was lt!7. This year it was SV2 lor »■'!. Ill explaining that you said it wa.s on account ot the catch being ery small this year ?— A. Yes. I *[ I suppose the price is governed by the catch, whatever the catch ;-A.^ That is it. j'^ Well, for this year, I saw a statement iu the Monetary Times yes- Niiy morning that the whole catch this year did not amount to ."iOjOiJO Vrels on your coast. Is that correct ? — A. I have no way of knowing, Wl should not think it was that much, if I was going to gue.ss on it; lit tlie vessels have been coming in since. VI Well, that is a very small catch, indeed? — A. Yes; that is .small f late years. IQ. Xow, I suppose if a large catch was made in the bay, and if your Fitlswere excluded altogether from the best tishiug-grouuds in the Y •: .l^''''4. IS ,i- 'i>M ;,^:ifl€. ■ t^s >':ifS» ^'^■k-^>' !' 2938 AWARD OF THE FISIIKUY COMMISSION. m ill bay, and the catch on your coast was very small, as it is tiiis year, in an t»x .'—A. Well, if you had nil tiio iiiiiekerci of conrse. Q. Well, if the statement was true that three fourths of tlni m.Kikml that are taken out of the gulf are taken within the limits, linir \\■,^^^\,[ have an appree.iablo ellect upon the (piestion who paid the duly .'—.v, I think it would. Q. It is just a (piestion of fact 1 — A. Yes. Q. Now, you say a (Jloneester vesstd twelve years old is ;is ^rood us i proviiKiial vessel new. JIow long do those vessels last ? Tin y iiim«- last a very good length of time. — A. Well, we lose a great many. In have vess«ds thirty and forty years old. Q. I suppose thirty years old would not bo beyond the ivvei;v>,'(' I('ii;;tli she ought to last i — A. If she was not lost. Yes, sir ; tliey will lust t?iat time and longer. Q. You said, of late years there were no vessels lishiiig eod aiKJ hiili but juomiscuously, but it used to bo so i — A. I siiid lisliing coil ani mackerel promiscuously. Q. A gentleman said yesterday there was about 100 vessels of tli'l cod-lishing fleet that were accusttuned to take m »re or less iiaiilmt. I think it was Mr. Pew. lie said Hi vessels devoted themselves exclu- sively to halibut-iishing, and a hundred of the cod-tishers look omj sioind catches of halibut ? — A. This is right. They go with ice and baitj and get both. Q. On the Seal Island ground you have never been in lisliiiigdoseti)| the shore ? — A. No. Q. You can't tell what is taken there ? — A. I could not tell anytliinj| about it; butM'e never know anything about its being a lisliiiig^'ni' Never thought of such a thing. I could not say there was none, there was I couhl not tell where any came from. Q. I presume they came fron> the sea? — A. I mean the vessels. Q. Mow many years since you have been there? — A. I haven't Iwii there since 1852 or 18i53, 1854 and 1855. I was only there one or twi^ trips, but before 1 left the halibut all broke up there. Q. I think you would not care about saying what the fact is now!- A. No; any more than that I know where our own vessels go. Q. You don't profess to know where the 31 halibut lisliers go owjj year, do you ? — A. Yes ; 1 know where the other vessels go as well my own. Q. Well, do you know where the 100 that catch both cod and lialibiij go ? — A. Yes ; they go to the Georges. Q. I am not speaking of what your general belief is, but now yi are giving evidence as to your knowledge. — A. Well, we send them j the Georges, and they come back and say they have been to tlie Gcoi^'e^ and tell me what part of the Bank they have tished on, in how dt? water, and all that. I am as familiar with the Bank as they are. Q. Do you know anything of the New London vessels? Do voj know where they go ? — A. No, I don't know anything about tlietii, Q. I just want to know if you would contradict a witness who M on the spot where we say the halibut is caught and who said he : iinuiy, 1)1 oraKc It'iiiitli will lust that Mxl ivml liiili' liii;;' cotl mill I 'CSSOls of till' I IS halilmt. 1| 1 selves I'Xi'l I's look occvl ,h ice auil b.iit| ishin<; doseM , tell iin.vtlii"2| isliiii}j-^'i'<»' as none, vessels. I havcirt bot'ii) lei'o one or two| fact is now !- ils so. ihers go pvet]^ |s go as wfll [od ami lialibii| L but now yo lesendtlieiiit Ito tlie GeorH V, in liow H Ithey are. Isels? no^i Ibout tbein. T;ucss who liv«| no said lie ^'j liorringbn^i iavcbailiiii great maiiyi (heMt Htatt'iiK'MtH liavo been made up roferrinfj to lato years, ihxw you I'lvt'iiiea stateiiuMit of what your v«>hhuIh liave done in the ^'ult' during [lie continuance of the Kecsiprocity Treaty, wiiat the eateh was, anerio(l .'—A. No, I haven't got it. (), Wonltl you say, as an experienced man, that the eatch on your shuns was as j-reat 'ii, sir; bccanse there was not so niany ves.sels went into it. TIuth *aii;;iit bo some years. ((.Take them tiiroU{,'h, from TjI to '()<}, tluMiateh in the hay (luring tliose vears yon aclviiowledge to l>e larger if — A. 1 think it was. 1 t liink ItliiTo were more ves.sels went there. 0, C'onld not you give nu) a statement of the returns of your vessels ; leonldyou make it up and send it tome? — A. Ves; I could take it from I till- iiooks at home. (^1, What was your average cateh during Jleeiprocity ! — A. Well, I lliave not been ti.shing since 1801. 1^, Vou wnit before that. What years have you statements for '! — A. I have from ISIS down to 1S(J1. In 18"»1 I made two trips and got oOl) baiu'ls; in 18.M, about oOO barrels — I (lan't recollect what we took the llirst trip; in IS.KJ, 4r»(> barrels; in 1857, 1 KM) l)arrels in three trips; in Ib'hS.tiL'.j barrels; in 18.jD, 470 barrels; iu i8Gi), ;i:io barrels; in 18(JI, Oil barrels. {}. Yon have omitted some years ? — A. No. Q. Give me (puintity for 18(52.— A. 1 gave you 1801 last. In 1802 |»cj!ot4."»(i barrels; in 1803, 1,U0 barrels; in 1804, 1,100 bai els. That pas my last trip. That was in the bay. i^>. On the whole you were a successful fi.sherman during those years, junii. judging from the evidence we have had, you must have made uiiiiiy. Your catches were large. — A. Yes, I always had a good 1^. Ill 184!), by this (referring to memorandum), you were in your |d0, I think it U\ There was mackerel on our shore the first of the year and didn't }ftm to be any in the fall. I went down late into the bay. I '). Then, alter 1804, you retired and went into business 1 — A. Yes. U, Now you say you never fished much in the Bay Chalturs ? — A. per but twice. I^ You know it of course as a tishing-grouud to which the fleet re- l»rU'ilat times? — A. Yes, I have heard of lish being caught there. Ul Frequently heard t — A. Yes. I knew it was a Jishing-ground, but jwas never a lishing-ground for me. IQ. It wa.s not for you personally. Now, you never resorted to the pn Islands ?— A. I went as far as there, but there didn't seem to b.e pytliing. VI Do you know how far otf they fish there ?— A. No, I dou't know fythiiig about it. vl You have also heard about that ?— A. l^es, as a place of resort. |Q- louknow that what mackerel are taken there are taken close in? — >o, I don't know anything of the kind. Vl \ou haven't heard it ?— A. No. r^ >;!'*. mt.: ,t : r,:K ! .'t'*"' "tf'*^ ,'#««K, ^mm ^ " ^^ ■; .-*♦ .,i*-fj »S''- .i^wrr ■• ^i^'m^^':'^' u \m ft i». ^IMO AW \\\\\ tt» »M|i' VIMMIIM IMiMMtMHIilN Man iimi i\\\\\\ \\\\^\\\ \\\ llottvMf A. I lllltt'l \X\\\\\\ lUt>tllll)M III' II ly) N i»«t 0>iIiimI t'tit itMtii lin< MMiilli >iliitit< nl tlii< (l\ im Ml riuvhMii'K' V N I'M «y< \'\\<\[ \\>H VM i'liiH \M>'. ilitMMih (lmt< \»*ii ll'ilti'il ilii'M>f A. Sii- I I ^l\«ii» Ui V ^^0 ll>n»> IImIumI «|I*0I|| rilUl'l" I'M^Hnl ImIhIkI mIs nt uiMi'ii (,„„j \ \ «•■ , oO '\\\\\ iMI. tH \hni'»l (III' \\'\\\ till! \i«Uai» llii'it' IImIiIk,! mih i\ Iii'i II VN oU, (U\ov ,lnl\ W t> cinnt' III tiltoni lni< tiiliMli' nl .liil !Ui\ iln\«» lUI 0«-i«»Im'i iH'iln* l>iM»ilnii!nli«i'i ' \ I II. 1, 1 I iiiiill\ I \ l!ll. ^ i^n \\Ul04>4 \\«> WOMM \\I»>I| WHlt'l. I'lllMI \MM\flll liiriun ii'iili' mil iii|ii>i|iiii iirj III I. ill \ iMi iliiln'i !»»< lo Wnn»U «uni'li f \. \V '• iitM t'l II ilii'ii iipii „|,i| Noil \voiiU\ ll^M Villi \\i«iii mil timl ii lii.ii imiIiij; in) A \\ oH, U wo lliow^lK lt>iMr\\i»M \\\\\ Ihliw (< \miiiIi| IImIi iiii\ ttliHo 1>\M i1 \\o«'!nno«MM ol liiuhov v\»< Wiiiilil ni'M«i lliliiK til IhmhIi \\o i\\\\ ; illilr^ «MH, \V \ i\nv Hpv'uK'iiiM ol Ihi' lini»\\on loiil inlulil In IImIi tlirif ? A. \Vi iU\> l\>M»v \y< U;n»» \i>n ^«>^>n \lii> ilin'l H'^hliin ' A, Vi'h UoM nii'i lin^M 'MIO mill, m'i>lti>lt'i| iiliniil iinill illirclhiiig !»On\tMU«v^«, \\\\\\ «\M\ll* ploiuv. \\ lii«il lli»«\ Hi'liiinl Hum mo wiiln iiii| \\\:\\\ \\m\\ l). \N 0 ll!>\0 H i^ \V^ \^^\l Know W lu>lll>M llH> tmllllM Ol lIlO inHl'lnMl'l ll!| \ P I'I|||I||J(m| ilj irtu^ >iVU'>i, UM>\ \\ln>tlu>i [\\\y\ iniMiow ri Uwi^ _^\^u li»v\i>l ihiU ? V \\ I'll, in iiiv o>|M«ili'm't>, I IlilnUli: whoiMllOM^ih'Kovx^l ;U^^ <»<'IM-«M> it i>» IIIOIO illMlldlO lllllll Vl llCII |i|i>lil\ T^wnK tluM \\h>i\\l\<>\ iMx' ««'iM\'0. liKiMhis M>in, (li«M(> « ill lie mniciMnnltj V1\vh\^IV \h;\M \X hO\\ \\w\ iMV pl«Mlt> \y> \^\\\ h;>\o \>Mi luvu-<< (^A>in iinv ol \oi\r oNjioiii'iu'iMl lI'iliiMiiini iM O'.o in.U'Kowl :\\\M;>Kono1 liUo \ ivii'^ iiiovo iimlioi(> llimi tlii\\ ihimI luln'l V ) ^i^XiMV't HsKon , \ \\:\W'\\'\ \\\U\ \\\\\\\\ Moitiy ill. «y^. W l\on \\M\ lishoil :U M;»i fiiu-t'o. i( \vi»a iiiHl»ov«> ? V, \\ lull I oiiii; M .■^S \\lsh^^^V \lhMV, WW IMU (MIOC *yV Vh*M\ \o\v t*>\>K thoin oui' in Mill >\.>^',«n \> ;^s snll. V>. Sx> vvMv wont out-*u\o ? - A. \ rs. i^V, ',^,^t oViVpt \\vM >on tooK tluMii insjdo. Now, in llii>f;illi \\MC lh»Mi«SM ji\MUM;»U\ m;»Ko ;« «l»sll ;»t tllO<'!t|H> Hicloil slioiv, iJOlj thoy, to rtu-sh upt -A, I thniK tliox «lo 'rin\\ looK to lliiil plm i^hotuv^mp t\> M;u-j;.\\\v, u p>o«l n\ni\> ol'tluMii. A ix^v.w niiiivci tliej >»'vU not )5\> t'aiMV. V^, As ;\ ruU\ thov }ivnov;\n> n»nnnii-»» t»> >;iM a jjonil iiimmv li Wtviu I *Uxn't know about that. I li;uo Uiuumi a gnoil miiii\ thalilii i^. \\ hAt is \onv )HM-sot\al ovporioui'o ol' that ? Yon i';iii;:li *lTX\i iMvwls thorx> ono ttino f — A, 1 novor fan|»ilil a a^vM »J^on^ I v\\;ijiht svMuo in IS.'>1 ; 1 oaujilit. 1 think, oighty harivi I l»ltO many i AWAlHt Mil' IMt: MM(M'!(»» CMMMIMMIMM, 'JMil It lit f\im mill li'HUl'lll'li' , tli'lll IIImIihik I III'M'I ll'iliid I «1l'\l'M \i' "11 i,l ((iMi\ ilia 111 iiiiiilj I In !ill iliiri'lum^ '|'lii'\ 'irliiiiil 4 ii>\ iMi> wiili'l iiiitj \. Woll.lliillil \\>\W rl\illU!i"'l'| Ititn lli'\\ "'"''I '( IICK I llliMlJlli l\ w lien |il«'ii ill 1(0 \>iiiriM';iin;i( UMionni'ii' I liilii'l llu>\ II ii'i V Whiil liM'lS \o;U 111 >>>ii\«' ill 111' im IllUll tf in |lu>l';llliil li'iH lllll iillh hm V''lll'n I l'*(Mtll)ihl Mllt-llllt|:i| MIIV Ml MMy lMl|i(irll|>M-(> III ,1,11, 'I (iiiillffi itdv III)? Ifild II (tl I'lMII'i^'. •'••" IiIIImIiciI ImMIcIm III II lIlH Im HM MIoriflMllM IjiIm' ' Villi iiM \"" 'tllluhl niiii liilllilM'tl Imi(|i-Im hi M(M> (liiv 1 VV('«<« \Uhll' llitif |m llitii- '(l HimMIiih' f A Mlilltit IIk-k- nf'H' 'lU M> <-lj^ll(,. ' iiii 11'"'' ,1 Itltllli'* I!''' •■•|Hilll) KMiitl ciilflii'M ' \ Mn iy lliiM "iH il lltUl V'ttI M"l '• •"" InKif \. We ^mI fill «<• iiiii\ii I III! Itiimil'MMnI liiid Mill) 110 Iiiimi'Im Ih jinl (Iimii Iff VVi- >/»•( itl> HI' mill I'i'inI III I jill UfUCII- lllttlH' III III!' (•< ('(lllll.^ w I- »(IIIM< '»','(<> l(/i(fl l',l('i|, ||ii< mIi'JiI, ItMH Iiim. Ill'' Hi'i'l III I'iiimI I'nliil, iiimI Im IIk^ iiiiiiii}ni( I.hIIkIiI «f WI'IC 111 lllf •■'•tl» III iMllUMIK-Jv II I Hii|i|i'"i'' )"•• III"! •••'♦'•I (I'llildn III I'iimI I'oImI ' A ^V<- Imd Ii/j-ii Iniiii; llll'll' I \iiiMW'ii> li\lti|' III I'liiMl I'dliil ivlllt lli(> /li-(>l iMid mI(I|»((''I ri.v/i,y „l,,ill||htH| III AlllllMIIKf lllll. Mill lIlK IIm^I lltlllC.V will HMiIM-<(I lillt/ 1 ■■ \ I iiii III 'lis iifii" lliMi' ill!" tM"^^N rtf, liiil lliii'li. I lliliili IJillM IiiiiK'Im wi'U- IiiIm'M ill Itl'i'lt ImIiuhI Im-iI v'-iii. 1,1 \V lllll Im iiliiiill IIm- ii\ I'liii'i' 'llll'll III lll'f'li I'lliHt'l ? A \hu iin/i t\,i; ilnllWII III lllll'l' Al'ltlX IHIlll' llllVM IlI'MI MMII'lll 1,1, Wliiil liiiM lii'i'ii |Im> I'dlcli III IH'tilf I'Uiiitd lliJM yiMif 1 A. / iinilil^ ml lull ; lilKI Ml llllO lllll H'Im Inn (» I'Miim ImIm Oloicc'ilm, <».h'l m'<(»ii(' litln'ii mIIIi IIm' mi'Imc. 'I lii'y wmi' nil \niu,i- (i^lf, ninunn', !.!''> Iiiiiii III lllll 1,1, Villi Hiiv \iiii mi'iiI yiiiii \i'^m('Im I«* I Imn Imy Iim )iii-!«( ihi-v w>m fih iii'lii'ii'l nil \iiiii invii mIimU'm. W I'M* onlv Iwofil llMfx u('iiiiK ' A II' llrlcii IM. < Utmliy. 'I'lii* llnlili'ii Iliml vim » m'i((''f ttl (ciffii , Icif h' i iiir Wilt It'll ii'jIimm' u JM'ii '^lin niiiM' l(» lllll liny. (,i, Tlli> llrli'ii M, riMMlty HUH ii Mi'iiici ? A, YfM. 1,1. Sill' I ill il Im I \M» wci'liM ill llic liiiv ? A. Y«><, <,l. Sill' vMi'i mil Mil' I'CH'^liil Willi llic MfilM' ? A. No; iiof ■//i\h liook-i Blii';;ii| niily .S lull II'Im. 'i'. Slio only Mliiiil Inr hv«i w«'I'I«h? A. 'I'lidl wa^ till, •). 'Si'iiiiiij; 1=1 lllll, MiifiM'MMrnl ill Mil' liiiy if A. I rlori't lliifik il is, 'J TliiMViili'i ill wliii'li llic iii»i"''''"^Boos|iiil|,nv mill luiiuli ImiIImiii. ,. (linl I'liii I'.U in.uiv I'l 1(1 wimiv •'■* Il UtiUIV Unit ' In oim Isi jii'«' j-hl ono at many I ','. Wlii'iii lllll iiio ('.iijiliiin III' IliM llt'U'n M. (fmliv try to u-t^- lh(- piiii'' .\. Ilt'iliil mil. liy II III nil, licr'niiHii Im ilid not ««■<• nuy ImIi. 1 1). l>ii ymi Kiiiiw wlit'iH Im wiml ? A. I lliinl; Im- tol'l inf \i«- W'fif f/> i^laiiil, mill riiiiii .llioic III llir .Mdtcdiiliiin, !iri»l cro^iw/l to fUyttk-K li'y mill (It jiliiiii, (lllll wi'iil, inio I'.ny ^,^|;||»•llr^, Hfiil down t/> l''»»rit, III NiMtli ( ln|M>, iiikI ildWK Mm iHliiiid, fiiid Jl'•.ro^i^ t/; .Vlnij/dalftrM inii llst'iill, i\[\ lianvi ; iu tl h^. iio iiiiil ri'iiiii Uhi the other liav who uses salt bait, and he said ho gets his fare of from 1,200 to l,ioo quintals. JJut though we have used fresh bait, we have not had a'siiccesstiil trip to the Grand Hanks. Q. You don't know if the captains would consent ? — A. If the captains would go, 1 would like to send them in that way and let them use salt bait. Q, Do you know anything about halibutUshing on the eastern shore of Aiiticosti ? — A. 1 know that several years ago some vess(^ls caught two or three trijjs there ; but it was afterwards given u|>. I don't know i one vessel that has been there for two or three vessels. By IMr. Whiteway : Q. Have you ever been on the Grand Banks fishing yourself ? — A. iXo. Q. You ha.l only a vessel there one year ? — A. We had one this year, I one last year. Q. The three past years include all your experience of fishing on the [Grand Banks ? — A. For the last Ave years we have had from one to two 1 vessels. Q, You have had no experience personally of the advantages of either Ifresb or salt bait i~A. Not on the Grand ISank ; all I get is from talk- |iuo[with men who fish with salt bait. Q, Do you indorse the opinion that where fresh bait is used it is use- lless to adopt salt bait? — A. I think it is; but the vessel with salt bait [can go to a diflerent part of the ground. Q. As ftir as regards the actual time necessary to go i ito the coast of iSewfomidland or (Jape Breton and get fresh l>ait, you cannot judge ? — |A, I think I can. 1 have been told — I always asked in regard to it — Itliatif they could get bait readily after they go in, it would take from jlo to 12 days ; about 10 days, I should Judge, from what they told me. jButtbey do not always get bait readily ; sometimes they have to go to jSt, Peter's for ice and down to Conception Bay for bait. Q. May they not waste their time occasionally ? — A. I have no doubt Ittey do sometimes. No. 77. lioGEU W. WoNSON, of Gloucester, Mass., flsli merchant, called on jWialfot'the Government of the Uuited States, sworn aud e.vamined: By Mr. Dana: 'i'liestion. Your age, I believe is forty-three, and you were born and ^ut Gloucester ? — Answer. Yes. 1 Q. Did you in early life have any experience as a practical tisher- paii !_A. Three or four years. Q> Then you went into the fishing business ? — A. Yes. f/\''"^ .year did you go into the business of buying and selling fish Ifittiugout ?— A. Eighteen hundred and fifty one. '^^M''*' m 0^' i " ^'m- -^v t .■''■*i"#;'^f»> trii .•■?!• I" "i, "'*■'*' 2944 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. And have been in it ever since ? — A. Yes. Q. IIow many vessels do you think you have run on an average, in. chuiing these you owned and those you managed for other i»eoplo^?— .y About twelve annually. I have ten at the present time. Q. Starting from 18(10, how many vessels had you in tlic bay tlicnl- A. I think 1 had one. 1 had from one vessel to live vessels most of tlif time. Q. How long hfive you been engaged in sending vessels to the bay ,'- A. Twenty years. Q. Do you think you have given the bay a fair trial ?— A. I think so. Q. What is your experience in the bay during those twenty years. as far as regards pecuniary results ? — A. It has not been so iirolitablewitii us to send vessels there as on cod Hshing. Q. Taking the bay mackerel Hshery alone, has it been a prolltalile biisi ness ? — A. I think not. Q. Have you given up bay tishing?— A. Not wholly. We have one there this season. Q. What is the nan«e of the vessel ? — A. Tlie Kussler. Q. Have you heard from her? — A. We heard about two weeks ajo that she had got eighty barrels. A gentleman who has come from tbi' bay has since told me she had sixty barrels. Q. The vessels you have sent down have been less in number tliaii those sent elsewhere ? — A. Yes. Q. You have had one or two in the bay each season '/—A. Welia five there one season. We never had more than three, except that | season. Q. How many vessels have you usuallj' sent to the 15aiiks?— A, l] should think they wouhl average about six each season ; that is, iiiclml ing those to George's Bank. Q. What has been the result of you rbanking business '—A. It li;i<| been prolitable. That is to say, not a large prolit, but it has been iiiou' | protitable than mackereling in the bay. Q. Have you employed vessels in tishing at the South fi,| except during the tirst part of the season, what has been your sm:iv^ port to Beaver Harbor — Deer Island mostly. AWARD OP THE FISHKRY Ci»MMI8SI0N. 2945 Q, Not iniiny at Grand Manan ? — A. Wo liavo had three cargoes from tliire, as near as I can recollect. Q. Throe on an average, or altogether ? — A. Three altogether. ()! It) ro^'ard to inackerelUshing on the American coast, how was tho lisliiiii; this year? — A. The vessels did very well South, bnt wlien the iiiackeiel caiiie np from tho South they (iould not bo found. (,», y(»t in Massachusetts Bay ? — A. No. (). What intelligence diiii(.ss J— A. Yes ; I have been tlun-e on an average about two months leach winter for four winters. {}. At what part of the coast were you ? — A. From Eastport to Beaver I Harbor iiio.stly ; 1 have been to Grand Manan two or three times. Q, Atid to Deer Island ? — A. About Deer Island mostly. Q. That is your personal experience ? — A. Yes. (j, Where there did you ever see any Gloucester vessels catching Ikrring ?— A. I don't recollect seeing any. Q, Do you know how it is about boats ti.shingat Eastjmrt and Grand iMaiian, atnl so forth f — A. I have seen a few Eastport boats lishing there laniiMi;; New Brunswick boats. ^. Have you ever seen Xew Brunswick boats on the other side of the Ik' .'-A. No; I don't think so. We do not catch many herring on the lotlier side ; some are caught round Eastport; not very many. ([They do not mind the boundary line much there' — A. 1 don't ;tiiiik tliev do. Q. Would the herring business of Gloucester be herring; considered as one we don't pre- pf catching or buying herring ? — A. Of btiyiii; 1 to catch atiy, Q. Ill the eotiiinon speech among Gloucester mei chants, dealers, ami j^sliirim'u, it anybody spoke of the herring tieet off Gloucester, what "iilillie iiiiderstooti by it? — A. Tho.so that go down to purcha.se her- 111)!:. Isthcie anything else to which they conhl allude .' — A. No. I '[ lluw iiiiiiiy American ves.sels do you supiiose yon have seen at one pontine north shore of (rrand 3Ianan engaged in the purchase of p!-A. Ill the winter of 1875-70, I saw (»() vessels at one time. 'I Suppose the sui)ply of salt mackerel obtained in the bay, which i.s " i':ti) our market, should cease, what do you think wonltl be tho pwt eople, and especially on the people of Glou- pi!-A. 1 don't know that 1 can give vou mueh of an idea about 18a F .^1-*? '-r. m^-^ •>" '' ■»(.«;'»,.,. If m 294G AWARD OF THK FISHERY COMMISSION. -A. Yes. A. On Wostoni Ba tliat. I siii)p<)8e it would all't'ct tlio maikot for awhile, but not a Teat •while, I 8ii(ml(l suppose. Q. Would it alVect it very .severely even for a while ? — A. No; I sboni,! aiot Ray it would. Q. Suppose the American market should lose the fish tiikcii by Amci. icau vessels within three miles of the Canadian coasts, would it Iiuaim sensible ellVct on the Ameiican market ? — A.. 1 don't tidnk it woukl. IJy j\Ir. Thomson : Q. In regard to the lierrinfj fishing; there is a fleet wKwh {roes dnwn in the nvighhoi'hood of Grand ^fanan and Kastport, from (ijoucostti. liance.s to fish ? — A. Not exceiit iii tlif one ease I have mentioned. Q. One of your vessels went down and caught a cargo :'— A. Yes. ii. Where did she fish ? — A. In St. Andrew's 13ay she cau^^lit uearlv the whole of them. i). In what year was it ? — A. In the winter of 187.'5-'71. i). Did she get a full cargo ? — A. Yes; it was a sniall vessel. n is to go down and give notice to tli^ fishernuMi that tliey want bait, and the fishermen will get it for tiieiii.'- A. As soon as vessels go iu fishermen come on board and see if tlie^ want bait. Q. They tlun iiiake a bargain"? — A. Yes. i). Ami the fishermen go and get bait for them? — A. Yes. i). Are the itersons who go on board American citizens or liiiiisj subjects ? — A. 1 have seen them go on board from Eastport, aud ivj 8U])pose they are American citizens there. Q. They are Atnerican citizens who go over and get bait in Biitil waters ? — A. I think that most of the herring are caught in Mn^ waters. Q. 1 think we have had some evidence that of late years Gioucest vessels have gone down and employed Americans to get bait for tlieinJ that so ? — A. I don't think they have employed Americans. I coultlnl .say. Q. Is it not well known that the Gloucester fleet has gone downj .spring and fall, iu the fall for frozen herring, and iu the spring fort jmrpose of getting bait? — A. Y^es. Q. Y'ou have mentioned that you saw GO vessel;"! at one time, «N 501 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2917 I wumu. 1 Ciloucestci, ■ biiit; yo\ ■ xce-itl ill 'lit 1 -\. Yos, 1 lujiht lUMvly I ivprp they l.viiiff' — •'^- I siiw them from Eiistport, eer Island ? — A. Y^es. (^1. lU'cansc that lies nearer Letite ? — A. Y'es. Q. And from that all along the main shore you call the North Shore ? -A. Vcs. (,>. That is where your vessels chielly got their bait and frozen herring ? -A, That is as to frozen herring. I don't know where the Ushermen 'eople from Eastport to Mmiiit Desert. {). Or from I']astport to Lubeck ? — A. Y^\s. Q, A great many persons are engagt'd in fishing around Eastport I — A. Not in herring fishery — in Bank fishery. Q, 1 mean in bait fishing? — A. There are very few at Eastport com- ]i;in'(i with what there are across the line. Q. Do Eastport boats or lishermen go over into Uritish waters and fish .'—A. Yes, 1 think they do, what there an; of them. {}. All Americati flshermen go over and fish on the shores of the i>laiul ?— A. Yes, I think they do. (J. Either at Deer Island, Campobello, "West Isles, or Grand ^Nlauan. Yon yourself have no i)ersonal knowledge of the north siiore or main Imd, I suppose i — A. From Beaver Harbor to Letite. 1 have been in the hiirbors all along there. Q. There is a great deal of fishing round that coast ? — A. Yes. Q. A great many American vessels come in there every year ?— A. I could not say a great many ; 1 ha\'e seen a few. t). Don't they come in and get bait '! — A. A lot of American vessels come after bait. Q. A large luunber come in and fish themselves ? — A. I have only seen a few from Eastport. Q. A large mimber come in aiul get bait ? — A. Y'es, buy it. Q. They give notice to the fishermen that they want bait, and the fishermen go and get it for them ?— A. Y'es. Q. You said the fisheries of the gulf are very bad. State the number of jeais your vessels have been in the gulf fishing ? — A. I could not tell veil before 1870. We have had one iu every year, since 1870, till last [year, wheu we bad not any. Q. Before 187u had you any in the gulf ?— A. Yes, but I could not [state the years. Q. Did none of those vessels previous to 1870 make money and get [good cargoes ?— A. I think once in a while they did fairly. Q- Do you know whether thev flshetl inshore or olf shore ? — A. I could IBot sav. V' -Mf'-**" ,«p!»K.: H -x i V i ^^m •■n e ■ i y ■^.1 |=^v'.-f^.^i.:*^„ :'*^^^;,^ii»-':i |i.i*< 2948 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 1 No ; I I don't I (loii"t not Siiy. r have not the lost? — A. 1 caitiiot ti'll Q. Tliey may have taken the whole catch, for anything you know, within the Stnile limit? — A. I never heard them say that tlun liml takiii them inshore. They may have done so. Q. Did you ever hear from them that tliey did not take them in. shore ? — A. No. Q. Then, for anything you know, they might all have been taken within the 3 mile limit or all outside ? — A. Yes. Q. Some of the years were profitable ? — A. I think two or three yeiir^ we might have done very fairly, as far as 1 can recollect. Q. Wince 1870 how many vessels have you had in the bay :'— A. From one to three, except last .\ear, when we liad not any. Q. Had yon made money in the gult fishing up to 1870 ?— A. do not thiidi we had. Q. Had you lost money ? — A. I could not say for certain. think we nmde any ; but Icoidd not say for certain we lost any. think it was profitable. Q. You had not lost any money up to that time ? — A. I cotihl not say we had. Q. At all events, notwithstanding the character of that lisliinj;- good or bad — you sent to the gulf after 1870 every j'ear until last yeai .'- A. Yes. Q. Have you lost uioney since 1870 ? — A. Yes ; we have. Q. A large sum ? — A. No; not very large. Q. How nuich have you lost ? — A. 1 could figures, antlieirj time * — A. We send them there to catch some fish if they can. Q. Why do you keep them there every year? — A. We don't ktopj many there ; we used to have five ; we have oidy one there now. Q. Why do you keep one in the bay ?— A. In the hope it wilMoj better. Q. Aie you serious in saying you don't think the gulf inshore IL^heryj is worth anything ? — A. Yes. I Q. Siipjose the inshore fishery was taken away from yon. and tliej rest of the gulf fishing was left to you, and the ttsliing at the Magdaleoj Islands, would it do you any injury? — A. I think not. Q. Practica ly it is of no value to you? — A. I thiidc not. AWAKD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2949 Q. Istliilt tlitt opinion of Gloucester fishermen generally? — A. 1 could not say. Q. Siiivly you nmst know the general opinion of (xloucester peoplti, when you iiic; a Glontje-ster man ?— A. It is a matter 1 do not hear dis- ciisscii luucli, and I could not say what the general opinion is. (jt. Do yo I think the opinion yon hold is one in which no one else .rroes witli yon ? — A. I have heard my partner mention it. Q. Do you say you know so little about the public opinion of Glouces- ter tliat you (tannot tell whether that is the opinion of the people there ? — A. Woli, I think it is; I have not heard much about it. Q. Some witnesses so have stated that Boston is the great center of thetisb tiiule in the United States; is that your opinion ? — A. I thiuk it is, in certain kinds. {}. Do you know what is the general opinion in Jioston in regard to tlie rijrlit (>t lishing inshore in the gulf? — A. 1 do not. Q. Docs iiot the board of trade there represent the opinion of Boston ill matters of trade ? — A. 1 su[)[>ose it does; I don't know what its opinion is. Q, I want to call your attention to a report of the governmsMit of the biiston boiird of trade jiresented to the board on 17th January, 1855. Atpajre 1 it says: Tliegnvt'ininciit of the Boston Board of Trade liave the pleasure of placiii}; before ihrini'inlpei'siiii account of proctujilings ui)oii tlie principal subjects which baveenjjaged ibt'irattuniion since the organization of the board. At tlie icfjiiliir meeting in November, a report was made einl'racing many of the^6 ^llllj^'cts, aiid the short time which has elapsed since has furnished them with but Utile iiiw tocominiiiiicate at the present time. They deem it proper, however, on the occasion of the annual meeting, to review what has been done, and to give yon some idea of the jdan which it is proposed to p irsiitj, iiiunler to accomplish the end for which our board was incorporated. At page 10, there is the following passage: The ponple of Nova Sciitia are differently employed, according to the districts in «lii(:li they reside. In the agricultural portions of the i)riivinco they are all farmers; (II the seaboard they are ship-builders, ti>hermen, and sailors, the latter engaged in atiiiigaiiil tiie carrying trade of the world, in vessels of their own build, wherever 1 llieycaii tiiil cMiiiloynient. In New Hiiinswick the population is about equally divided between farming, lum- i Wriiijt, and sliip-bnilding, with a small portion engaged in the fisheries. Itwilltlnis lie seen that the pursuits of the people are various, and that while in jw.ne particulars their interests .are idtMitieul, in others they are antagonistic. ; llie Inward and (utward trade of the live British North American colonies amounts toalmut eijjlity millions of dollars annually. The ships inward and ontwaid, to and from foreijjn jiorts, exclusive of local trade, amounted in L"<.>? to near four millioua of loDs. and ilie aggregate of tonnage owned and registered in these colonies now amounts I'tiiive linndrcd thousand tons. They Ituilt and sold in England in If^uH, one hundred Mil titty tli(uisiiiid tons of new shijiping. These ships are employed on every ocean ■'ciltlieclaiacfcr of colonial ships is rajiidly rising; they nearly ei|ual the first-class Aiiieiican and Biitisli ships, and the imiuovement in intellectual and moral character ["fwlnnial sliip. masters and seauieu is lully keeping pace with their improvements in loavalarcliiU'cinre. TlicHritisli North American colonies, though separated from us by several thousand jtiilesnt Inintii'r, are geographically united to ns, and the free exeh.-inge of m«-ruhan- jfii*iu count lies so situated is almost inevitable. Their present population is rapidly jiiimasinj; and they are increasing in wnUrial wealth. I -ijuieot tilt' nintnal advantages wli cli the jiresent treaty presents in our own par- llifiilarrela'ious with these ))rovinces may be at once seen. 1 It iipens another source from whi h to draw our breadstuffs, cattle, lumber, and j'W.iind our thickly-settled uiauufacturing districts ofter to the provinces the best parket in our country for the consumptiou of their products ; while, on the other l»l, aliour manufactures being admitted to the provinces on as favorable terms aa |™se(it (ileal Britain, or of any other country, we have a wide field open wherein to STi"' ",',"' ^"I'pl us products, and offer them the important advantage of supplying |llltlii8clVi;i ■ es lioiu tiist hands. The value of our exports to the provinces is already one 13 '**•"** ■^^\,h < *t "■■■■■ i-rt -c-tv- ..- . %^^ :m. '^^s^> 2950 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. and a liiilf inillinuM a year, inaile u]) ot'ntovoH, iron, and wooden-wares, jinil iil] sun^,,! Yankt'e inventions; and Hiis anionnt, umler free intercouiHi!, will gently iiiirciisc, The forei/^n iniimrtH into tliin district liave increaNt'd in the laxt lilifcn viarsimM fourteen to lort.v-six niillioiiH of dollars, and onr uiarliet now otl'cis, or .slidiild (iii,.| . we are true to onrselves, every indiicunient tor the iiilial>itaMts of tlic |iiiiviiiccst(i unu. ply themselves here witli foreign dry-jjoods, teas, groceries, or wiiatevt^r clx' ilicy m,,, ueed. In connection with tliis, yonr diret^tors cannot refrain from mentioniiij;. iiu idi iit;ill, the great increase which is seen in the anionnt of goods sent in transit Uy Wiiy nf H,,.. ton to the Canadas within the past lew years— from twenty-fivo tli(iiis:iii(l dollais n 184'.), to overlive millions in 18ri4 ; nor from referring to the great fHciliiiis;iil,ii(l,.,ii,, onr harbor, by the imi»rovements at East Hoston, and the lini; of railwiiy liy uiiich ;,;i our roads fi'om Hoston nuiy bo united — as eminently calculated to au;;iiieiii iMuidin. lutrcial relations, for exjiort as well as import, with the Hritish Xortli Aiiiciiciin pn,,. iuces, and with our whole Westtrn countries, and as of almost incalculiililf uilvaiii;i:;u to our railroads, if they only show themselves ca[)able of doing tlie buHiiicis, ]Jnt, in connection with the Keciprocity Treaty, it is to the importance of the ti>li- erics that your directors wish at this time ])articnlarly to call yonr attention; kl'ViiiIv per ecmt. of the tonnage emi>loyed in the whale, cod, and mackerel lislieiieM in n,,- United States belongs to Massachusetts, and Hostou is the business center. Bj' colonial construction of the Oiuveiitiou between the United .Stiites and Great Britain, of 1818, we were excluded from not less than four thousand milts of li>hiii/. gronutl. The valuable mackerel fishery is situated bttween the shore ami n liiieiliiiu . from the St. Croix River, southeast to Seal Island, and extending along the Ailaiitj coast of Nova Scotia, abo\it tlin^e miles from the coast, arouixl Capi! Ibetoii, ontMil- Prince Edward Island, across the entrance to the Hay of Chaleur; thence oiitsidi' il,. Island of Anticosti to Mt. Joly, on the I^abrador coast, where the riglit of shoie-lisliii^ commences. The coasts within thefco limits, following their several indeiitiitioiis, a^ uot less than four thousand miles in extent, all excellent fishing-gioniids. Ucliire il..- mackerel fishery began to be closely watched and protected, our vessels aitiwllj Bwarmcd on the lishing-ground within the spaces inclosed by the line mentioned. Each of these vessels made two or three full fares in the season, and sotiie tlioiisain!' of valuable cargoes were lauded every year iu the United States, adding lurgilv'.j our wealth and prosperity. A sad contrast has since exi.stcd. From Gloucester only one hundred and fifty-six vef?8els were sent to the Bay of Saint Lawrence iu IHr)!!. Of these, not more than <» iu ten made the xccond trij), and even they did not get full fares the tirst tri]!, lint wn.r a second time iu the hope of doing better. The princiital persons engaged in the lii:>i- uess in Gloucester, estimated that the loj^s iu 185IJ amounted to an averiigeoronctliNi:- sand dollars on each ve8^el, without counting that incurred from deteniion, lifhiyv and damages from being driven out of the harbor and from waste of time liy cri"«>. It was agreed by all parties that if their vessels could have had free access to tln' ii>'i- ing-grounds, as formerly, the ditference to that district alone would have been at Im!! i four hundred thousand dollars. In 18');?. there were forty-six vesf^els belonging to Beverly ; thirteen of them wont lo j the bay iu 18,")2, but owing to the rttstiictious tlieir voyages were wholly uusuctTSsliil. and none of them went in 18;'):?. At Salem, only two mackerel licenses were granted in 1853, and at Marblehead only j six. At Newburyport there are ninety fishing-vessels; seventy of these went to tlio tay] for mackerel in 185:?, but almost all of them, it is said, made ruinous voya<;t'H A! j Boston, only a dozen licenses were granted for this fishery in 1K')3, and very Itnvul tl ' j one bundled vessels belonging to the towns of Dennis and Harwich, on (.'ape roi, two-thirds of which are engaged iu the mackerel fishery, went to the bay lor nnKkri last year, because of the ill success attending the operations of the year previous. U:;';| of tUeir vessels of one hundred tons burthen, manned by sixteen men, was six woksi iu the bay in 1853, and returned with only one barrel of mackerel. Unless some change had taken place beneficial to the interests of our hardy lMi«l men, the Northern fisheries would have beeu whcdly ruined, and in all iirobability liii'*| entirely ceased, excejtt on a very limited scale on our own shores. The one hnmlMf and fifty thousand tons of shiiiping emid(/yed iu those fisheries would have been obli;'"lJ to seek employment elsewhere, and the prodiu't of the fisheries themselves, aMioini'iii^ to three or four million dollars annmilly, would have been lost to us. The iireartfl treaty opens to us again all the.se valuable fisheries, and our thanks are due to ibedisj tinguished statesmen who have labored in bringing it to a successful termination: !l^ your directors are most hapjiy to uuike mention of the services of Israel 1). ^^'"'"?|l e8(|., a gentlenuin whom we hope to have the ]deasure of meeting to-«hiy, who lial worked most assiduously for the last four years iu collecting and furnishing i" "1 valuable reports almost all the information l)osse^sed on the subject, and without wiJ"-"^ exertions, it is hardly too much to say, the treaty would uever have beeu made. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2951 il nil inlHi.l illi'rcilsv. II \r;irs I'llll'l iimlil olViT, it iucrs t" sii|i- 1m' lIll'V liiu. iiuiili'iitiillv ,■ wiiy (if llii«- nil iliilhili ::i cs llll'cinlnlliy • liy wliirli all lent iiiir I'liiii- lll'lirilll Illi'V- lilc advanlii'^e less. (■(■ (if tli(? M\- iti()ii ; Huvi'iity islit'iies ill ti,i' i!r. itcs and 'iica! iks (if I'blnii:- (1 a liiiiMlra«:i i>r the Atliiiit;': {rctdii, (iiit>iii'- lice ontsiilc ill'' (irsli(irc-li>liiu identalions, ;i;f ids. Ik'tblV lb: rcssels actually im'ntUMR'd. siiliie tlmiisaiul' Iding largt^lv'.ii ed iind fifty-^ix t iiuirc than "D'' >t trip, liiit wi 1.' t;ii!d in the Ih'.m- r(> (if one tli"ii- •uiidii, dfliy-. imi! liy cri>««. cess to the W- ivi) been at Ica-i )f tlicm Wf'iit to j UUSUCCI'mI" Marbk'heail I'u'y went to the bay I ,us voyat;i'^,-\'i 1 very few oil h, (111' (.'ape f'U'M lay for iiiiit'l>''f'l jirevioni*. *■''■< j I, was six viM our hardy fi^liefj j.i-obalMlity li;''«l I'iie one huinlwl ,avebeen()hli;."^J vos, ainoiiii'i"^ , The iire>''''1 duetotbediH .,-ininatioii'''''"1 ael 1). Anihv^*^ to-day, wbo "»l ■nishingi""'] ... without wl'*'^ loeu iiiiult'' d us re er :nrt id- (t. Tliiit is the opinion of the IJoHtoii lioanl of Triulc. Do you ♦li.- siiii from tliiit opinion .' — A. I don't tliinic thoy linow so inucli al>onf the Ij^lijiijr bnsiiu'ss a.-; ('loin oster people do. Q. In isr»;5, wore (Uouci'ister people doin},' a tloiuishing l>n.sinos.s in llie «iilf. or were tliey losing money '! — A. I could not say. '^i^. Tlie Itoston board of directors state that "it was agreed b> all liiiities tlmt if their vessels ((iloucester vessels) coidd have had free iiicessto the lishing-grounds as formerly, the dilference to that district iiloiRMVoiild have been at least 860(),(K)a." Do you dissent Iroui that ^pillion .'—A. Yes. {). I now call your attention to a speech delivered by 3Ir. Erastiis Drooiis, delivered at New York on May 2.S, 1874. lie says : iiiir public ddcunients show, first, in l-^'i'J, W(! liiid over Vi():5,00n tons of Mhii)piii>j iu till' li^lll'lies, (ill what are now tlio Ciiuudiiiu coasts, with "J-^jOUU seamen; tlio retiuiis (ciiisidcrubly exceeded .sl4,00(),0(tO. Do you agree or dissent from that opinion ? — A. 1 don't know any- tliiiig iihoiit it. {). He says : ■ill. Within tiii'ce years from the al»roj^iUioii of tlio treaty doprivinii our lislicrnicn of tLf jliore privile^ies luultr tlic treaty, our loiiiiiii^e in llie trade tell to ()\J,UUO tons — u li)>jof 7Uper cent. Do you dissent from that statement? — A. Yes. I don't tliiidc it felR uff tlmt nuich ; it fell off considerably; I could not say how much. Q. He further says : i'lii. The reconee.ssioii of these sliore |irivile<;es, under the Wasliin^jfon Treaty, hfif* alreiiily doubled the tonnage of our lishinj^-lleot from what it was iu l."^(ii). Do you dissent from that ? — A. 1 should not think it was a true state- ment, though I conld not say. i}. I suppose you know as a fact that the tonnage did fall olf after thef alirogatioii of tiie lleciprocity Treaty ? — A. Y'es. (^ And you know that, after the Treaty of Washington, in 1871, yonr toiiiia},'e began to increase, and has increased ever since? — A. I don't 'Jiiiik it liiis. Q. TiiiMi you think this statement is not correct? — A. It has fallen oil'. Q. Since 1871 ? — A. I think so. ^l Then Mr. Brooks is wrong ? — A. It has been falling off' all the liiiif. Q. Since 18G1 it has not increased ? — A. I don't thiidc it has. <^ This statement, then, is a misstatemeut? — A. 1 tliink it has been falling oti" all the time. Ml'. Thuuison put in the following paper: [\ew Voik Evtniug Expr(;ss, May 2Pth, 1^74.] I'loduce Exchange. AMiTIIEl! CAM, ll'OX THE (K)VEI{X>tEXT — .SI'KECir f)F EHASTUS JIKOOKS — HKCIl'ROCAL. COAIMEliCIAI, rUEATV, A meeting of the members of the oxclianj^e was held this afternoon, to consider t'i» 'iiliji'otot lestorinj; reciprocal comineicial relations between the United States, L'.iii- I W'l. ami Newfoundland. Mr. 15. \V. Floyd, vice-jiresident, presided. The secretai'y read the follow injij : llie board of managers of the New York Produce Exchauf{e havinjjt learned tbat 'Jtsmiatidiin are now jiendinj? between the United States and the Dominion of Canada. [ *'"' ^'^"fuundland for the renewal of reciprocal couimercial relations between the |tM(.ountries, it is therefore Mred, Tlmt this exchange earnestly desires to impress upon the Government of I '"'Lnitedfjtates, and upon the Senators and Keiiresentative.sof this State in (Jongrchs, 'H"'5''-i'*' •■■'*-' , 'nu ^■. , i Hi: SI.?! ;■..■*'! *^^W*^r tt; :*,.;«*«)., 2952 AWARD OP THE F18FIERY COMMISSION. 114 ill tho tfrcat importunco of tlio coimumma'ioii of Miieli ii tivuty at tbe earlii'st duy prui ticllllliN IliHobeil, That a cotiiinittit« of 7 intnnhurN of tim prodiiiM' I'xcliaiiK'' '••' ii|i|i(iiiiti.(l iiv t1i«* |ireHi(leiit, who hIiuII laku niicIi action ai in tlioir ,iiiil;{iiieiit may l>c' ili'iMiiud n«cei- enry to carry out tiio oltjfcts of tlii« in«mtiiiir. The ]>ru8i(iunt thun intiotlucml the lion. KraHtuM Itrouks, who gpuke in Hu)i>itnii( •; a^ foUowH: Mr. UrookH Hairt: Tlio more frecdoni tlu'io is in trath- tlic IwtttT for (lie i (iiiiitrv, im itH protlnciMH, for itH coiiHnnierH, for tho nit'rchant, an ami ((niiiiiiice l,\ Fcdoral or State hiws, tlie bettor for the jieoph^ at iar^e. However iiiiiili litlnrni tht'HO propositioim may he disputed, the trnth of history will Kustain tliis |)ii>itiiiii. >ii I'uro aro the exceptiunu or ijnalifyini; circnmstunceH that the main fads wjn ;thv;iv^ eland good. Tho snltjiet before nn is tho proposed restoration of tho Keciproeity 'Ireiity witluo much froeilom of trade as is practical for two Koverninents toaj^ice iipDU. Jtiiwtcn tho States tho fundamental law of the land wisely compels this freedipin, Fice umi eipial States, with ecinal rights for all citizens and all kinds of trailc wlmti'vii ilii' Itractice, is tho natural and lejjal rij;lit of all ; and but for nnjiihf e(iiiil)iiiati(in> nf Hellish luen for selfish purposes there would never l»e any departure from tliis nuuikI maxim. It is now |)roi)OHed that, as betweeti the I'nited Statics and Canada, tin re sliail W- 1. The waiver of m .ney compensation by tho I'uitud States for lislierit's iiiider tbv AVashington Tieaty. 2. That tho Canadian canals, from Lako ICrio to Montreal, be pnl:ir;;(ul wiiliin ;i years at tho cost of Canada, so as to admit tlio j)assaj{o of vessids 'jr)!) fret in li'ii;;t!i and 4.') in breatlth, and with a depth er|ual to the capacity of the lake li irliDis. :). That during the treaty all the Canadian canals, and the Mile, Wliitcliall, mil 8ault St. Marie, and Lake St. Clair canals shall be open to vessels and lioats oi boih countries and on the same teriiiH. . 4. That tho free navigation of Lake Michigan bo put on the same terms as i!if fne navigation of the St. liawreiice Ilivor. 5. That the navigation of tho St. Clair llata be maintained at the exipcnsc of ImiL countries in jirojiortion to their cominorce thereon. (). That the jiroductions of tho farm, forest, mines, aud water, and also aiiiimiK, meats, and products of the dairy, be admitted into both countries duty fici', as was provided in the Treaty of 1H54. 7. This list may possibly include agricultural imidenieuts, manufactures of iron ami steel and of wood, minerals, oils, salt, and a few other articlou. This is opposed because, as alleged, it will interfere with protection and admit tlie Canadians to none of the beneiits of American citizonshi]). The answer to this assertion is that all tho facts are against the objection, I'lmii 1821 to 183H tho average annual tratMc between the United States luid tianada was $3,500,000, and from IcfSS (sic) to 1845, Sfv'iOO.OOO, and from 184(3 to l-."):!, sU.',>:iiM«»i. This traftic rose in twelve years of reciprocity to a jmrchaso by the colonics ot'luittd States commodities to the gold value of .'5i:J5y,(;()7,0O0, and the purdiaso by ns fiora llie tolonies of products to the value of !Sill)7,000,000. There was a balance in ;,ndd in lavor of the United States during ton years of nearly 9i9(),o00,000, and in these twelve years the United States exports to Canada equaled in value all on r exports to China, Hra- zil, Italy, Hayti, Russia, Venezuela, Austria, the Arge.itine Republic, Dcnniaik, Tur- key, Portugal, the Sandwich Islands, Central America, and Japan; while nnr traile j with these governments showed tliat we imported from these countrici over si!'.',"'""""' 1 in excess of our exports other than gold. While thus tho balance of tr.ule with Can ada was nearly .$90,000,000 in our favor, of our exports to Canada ■s151,ihmi/J0U wcni manufactures. TiiK vi.sin;iJY niGirr.s, lumukij, inc. Our public documents show — 1. In 1802 we bad over20;j,000 tons of shipping in tlie tisherie Canadian coasts, with 28,000 seamen, and the returns considtrabl 2. Within three years from the abrogation of the treaty, doin the shore privileges under the treaty, our tonnage in the trade I'el of 70 |ier cent. 3. The reconcession of these shore-privileges, under the Washinfjlon already doubled (he tonnage of our fishinq- fleet from what it was in 1809. 4. As to tlie benefits of reciprocity, our ofHcial returns show that from l«iii tn 1"h. in which latter year the treatv went into operation, the jjrovinces bought from ns iirt- chandise to the value of $107 ',210,709, while wo bought from them but sii;:,:yt,J'2o; > cash balance in our favor of nearlv .$100,000,000. 5. In the years from 1854 to 18G3, in which the treaty was iu operaUon, the provmcos .iir now tlie I ,,dsll,(i(iit.i»'".[ lUir lisheiint'iiul I ll'.'.dllO le '.aluMl iiv, Liu] AWAIIU OF TIIK KINIIKRY COMMIHHION. •J!)53 >rms as the frte nres of iron and I and atlmit tlie L„iii liivKi Ml "I'r.'.iMMl.tMH). From .Inly I. I*ii:l, to .liiiii; :>; ii (liM(!rt>|)un<'y of $.Vl,i)i)l),Ulli), wlilcli tiio (Jitniiilians ulU'^it nniNt liuve ori'iiiiiii'il ■'**'*''* »'>*! iiitliiti!il cnrrtMiry. lilli li 111.' riiitcil Stiiti'H ictiniiH aif cornM-t, tln^ |iiovlin'«» in tli'-nc llirt't' yt'iiiM hiid ;i |;iri.'t' Witliiiii'i' ol trude in tlit'ir fitvor ; ii tlio province rotnrim are rorruut, tlio lialiinee iv;ii iiioiir liiviir. ... ;ili, Ciiiiiilii asserts, as to ii Ini'jft! )>->rlion of the Rrtirlcs received from lier free ot iliitv iiiiili'i' tin* tiealy, lliai onr iiii|M(rtatioiis liavo l>eeii annimlly incrttaMin^ .since tL« i,|«il lit ci'ii'lv eiiliaiieed priees. ■ill. Willie ilie treaty was in operation we piireliasnd over .«! ill, 001), 000 of Ininlier, or ,111 iiviTajfi""'^'' """•'""* I"''' iif'xiin. liiit in the sevtMi years that have elapsed siiwe tlio iHiial, we have piiielm.sud nearly 5ir»ll,(iOO,(MMi of Imiiber, or un annual aveiaj{t) of over ;..iiiHi.(Hii). inh. Fill" ciisli p iie of elear lnni1»er in Toronto is .«(*('> per 1 OOI) feet, or doiilile what i'lMLttuti yeai's ii}{i>, and its price now in I'ortlaiid, Me., is double the present pric'i^ in Turoiitn, (iiir ({lent iiiternational interests relat« ehielly to the soveral snUJecits involved in the .ntiove-iiiiiiied propositions. It is a ^ood rule to .jud^e ol the future by the past, ainljiidniiiH li'iiiii the past, here are the ailvaiitaj^es dtM'iveit from the treaty whi'ii it nhii'il. The Ciiiiadians (jiiote iiKiiitisl uh our own utllcial records to prove that in the uliltreiity we ii id all the advantage. Tlie l!iiti>li North American Provinces ))iireliased from ns merclniidise to thfl value of silli,'i'*(i,7(i,t, and the United States ])iireliased Irom tin* provinces . iiiiiT ,7 1'.i.-lviii. leaving; alialiiiiif in tiivor of the United States of 8'*ll,4-"^,-iv. In the iirst ten years of the twity we hail a balance in favor of the United States of ."^t'l'J.OIIS.riJ.'). >iiH'e the iiluouatioii of the old treaty, ei;;lit years since, articles that were free now liy an avcraiie duty of *j.") per cent., while the more important articles formerly free, iKre iininiaN, breadstntVs, grain niid Hour, lumiier, timber, co!^, butter and cheese, m\], tinh, mill lish ]irodiicts. All these are necessities, iind contribute to the food antl ciiithiii); iiiiil shelter of the peojile, Itii! I'aiiaila and the Uniteh%* ^' V- ■ ■■«•: .; Tlip ri'iii'iil of the treaty has iiijur»^d the coinnierce of this port to a great extent. IfiiiiMif ilic funis engaged in the tobacco trade says that his hoiis) sold Jjj.OOil.ODO hi; iilly to Canadian buyers during the treaty, but that he has done coiiii>aratively |ii'iiliiii;j since !■"'()(). Ihiliiittcr anil cheese trade of the country, representing §.')00, 000,000 of its prodiic- I'u'ii.hashad ttie same exiierience. This is also the expi.-riuiice of nearly all our biisi- jto>Miieii, and it is this class who urge the restoration of the treaty. Of course, such Jjireatviiiimt lie recijirocal in fact as in name. It is said that under the treaty which JK'iireil ''Caiiailians were ready to interchange frei" commodities, but on goods sub- lj«ito(liity tlii'y plii'Mul such exorbitant tarilf, as to pri)hil»it purcli is -s in tli,' Uiiitol FiaiM. The resiilr, was loud and constant omplaiiits and de:ii imls for tlio ter uiiiatioii |oltln'tri'aty. The biin;fits were mainly witli the Caiiad'ans, the burdens with us." ' !■• here given do not bear out this record, but if they were true the American iiiiiiii f WDiild, ofcour.se, modify the treaty. The fact i.s, that, while the old treaty Ijii'tiil, int 1 .Vi per cent, of the entire trade of the provinces was with this country, Bil since its ahiogation our jiortion of the trade amounts to less than ;?■") per cent. Tliccoiiiliisiiiiis Iroui all these facts, whatever the contrary opinion, is that the re- *||f the lii'cii rncal Treaty has lost the country many niillious of didlars, and that J'lfMipiaiioii ill >i)irit, not nece-ssarily in form, is most desiiable to all general ititer- 1"" .111(1 (iL'tiiiiieiiial to none of them. In the Dominion of Canada there are now over rjy'iio (if people with a debt considerably less than the debt of the city of New liotk. Th(!eoiiiiiierce of the Dominion last year was (iO steamships, 44() sailing vos- bV""! '•'''''"•'' * ""^ of shipping; and ll,bri9 sea-going ships, with a tonnage of ?'"'••'"•' tuns, an at Oanadiau ocean ports, and 18,IK50 lake and river ves.sels, with ','''"'!?i;''"f'-V.'9l,l"-4 tons, at Canadian inland ports, and this makes the Doiniiii(m, «l!i,i "*'"'"' "'"^ ^^'^ United States, next to France as the shipping country of the iniliDils into Canada last year were valued at §138,961,2S1, of which $CO,(JOO,000 Jioili Ille i-H|f-.*^i^^ 2954 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. If wt'io w ilium I 1 1 Illy. Sim II «<• rrpcl a jn'oplr iiml ii tnido hi> iiivitiii;; m ilii.s ? In vmr owi; 1111(1 tlic j;ciicr;il iiitfiCMls ol the ;fii('riil tliiil't of tlio new w<«rl liiivc l)iil to do our whole duly, fairly aidc.rl liy tliii >;ciMMal j^'iMiniiiiint i,,,, only to Hccmo iiropi'ity for oiii'.sclvcs, lint ti> coiitriliiil.o lar;;i'ly lo ilic |>ii).sipirii\ ,,| otllCIH. , Mr. Arcliiliiild Maxlcr sjioko of (Im importance of llie trenty, lunl <>( tin. iKlviiiita.-,., of the ()ld OIK', ilie al>ro<;ation of wliieli did not^ remove any dis;id\ ;itiiii"is iiii,l,r wliicli tlio I'nited Siaten (lien laWored. He insiMled tliat> nature inli'uilr.F iIh' lu,, eonntries to reeiproeale comine ■(•(' ; \v(< had only to look t,o their <^oiiiiMiiii y m,,! |||,, facilities provided lo promote it. The N|ieaknr nr;^ed un emphatic deiiiiiiisiriilidii Kv the nicetinj; in favor of maintaining; llm treaty. The resohitionH wimd then iinanimonHly adoptid. Q, I will now road you tlio followiiicf from tlii», Capt', .\iiii .Vdvcrtiscr of (K'tobcr IS, IS77 : Tm; KiNNAdK oi' (ii.ort'Ksri-.ii,— 'I'ho Htalenient of the tonnn^^e of the ilistnii (,| (Jlouccsler for the t|iiarl(M- endinfjj Se)>remli(ir :it», f~'77. shows a lotid of ,'i'j:i vc^mN M^;;;rcj;at iny; lil.Tlli.J Ions, an iiu'rease durinu; the (piarter of I! vessels iiiid l,:iT,'i.ri| tiiii,| I are under permanent re!!*,."<7ll.UH tons; (i li^npoiary enrollments, \l,W^:,.:i-< t(iii,;i,,; (less thiin 'JO tons) unde,' lici-nse-J, (i'.»S.,'^;{ tons; o M'ssids, l.Ci.Ml.ni ions, are eiiipliivdliu foreijin Iratle; lU vessels, ',),() lH.-Jv* tons, in the eoastinj; trade; Ii in yMciilin:;, 1-;M: Ions; and 117 vessels, 'J'.', '.'111. S(i tons, in the lisherics. Duiinj; the (|ii;iricr, \i v('>Mi., l.">S,r^;i tons, have heen Imilt in the distrii;t; anrl 'i, .I'.t.'.t? tuns, have lurn Inst atsiM- Cdiw Aim .itlvasc. if. Vou do iu)t thou dissent from the statement that after tlic tivaiy was passed the tonnajje increased to tiiat e\tent, no master wiu'ic tluvj went lishiiifj ? — A. The tonnage has l)oeu increasing in (Uuiucstoicvir j since 1 can remember, (}. The tonnage of the lishing fleet fell from 18(i()— the tiiiii' oi dkj Keeijirocity Treaty— to ISC!) to (;2,(>()(» tons ?— A. I tlionglit .you iisknll me about the tonnage in Canadian waters. Q. Did it not tall after the abrogation of the Keciprocity Tieafv !-A,j There was not so much tonnage in Canadian wateis. Q. Did the tonnage fall ? — A. I don't think it ything to'do?— A. Not that 1 know Q, lias not the whole business of od ami nuickerel lisliiiiu' t'li.iii;'ij since that time i At that time, 22 years ago, was seiniiii; oi tr;i«i:'j practiced by the vessels ? — A. Seining was not, and I do not think tni«| iug was to any extent. AWARD OP THE FISIIICKY COMMISSION. 2955 nil Advciiisi'i' '.'_A. 1 sImiuM tlic tinii' 01 I t'Tnulc! •-"-'} >'iii () You IiikI i>" «^xtriH!t read to .von from tint n'i)oit of tlio Boston iii'inl ot Trailc. Had it. latluM' a swelling' auc.tioiicci in;; sfylt- witli it? w (lid it sliil^t' ,\o"*' — ^^- '' Hi ,\ l)i> (MM', bill it, doi.s not apiicai' to Tliat lie <(>. (). Ii siH'iiIvS ol' tli* ht'cii pn^tty 8ti>ady,t() thn iiialtility to lisli witiiiii thr(M> luilo.s i,l ihc short', is that i. correct stalcniciit ? — A. I could not say al)out that. I), lliis the l'alliii<;' inion that our fishermen would |ir((s|i('i' vastly it they c(»uld lisli within the three miles and woidd };o to mill it' tliey could not, has it or has it not turned out to lie an entirely inoiicous opiiiKiii ?— A. I thiidv so. (I, Is it true of the lishin;;' tonnage, that duriii}; the three years after ilit'uhnu' '-on of the Itecriprocity Tieaty, the tonnage fell from LMK),()(>() loiLVKiO.'— A. I think not. (,t. Is that anything within reason ? — A. I thiidv not. {). Tlie tisliiiig Clauses of the Washington Treaty had not l)een in |iiji!iutioii 111 i'riiice Kdward Island more than two years, and in other jiiirtsiiot more than one year, wiien the speech was nui nIioii' priviJci^fH under tiic \Vasliin;;t(tii 'ricaty lias already iwiiDhd tlie toniiii;;o of our lisliiii;; llcut (roiu wiiat it was in l"^()i>. Have you any idea of such a thing having liappened ? — A. No. i^>. lias the aiiiouiit of toiiiiag(! employed in the bay (isherv increased lonliiiiiiiisliiMl witliin the last six years ? — A. It lias diminished. (1, Aiidtlieie has been no marked change in its favor since the Wash- iiijtoii Treaty went into oi)eratit)n. The tisliing in the gulf has not iMU'ased, hut has diminished, without ref "rence to the \Vashingtou |Tii'iity ,'— A. The fishing in the gulf — yes. (•. Voii have not seen this si»eech, made by Mr. ha-astiis IJrooks, be- [fori'!-A. No. (^ The cvtraet from the Cape Ann Advertiser, whi(di has Ireen read, hiiiiusaii iiieivase of six vessels (hiring the (|uarter. Four of these are luiukr iHTinaiient registers. Those, I su|)po.se, are not bay fishing ves- |mIv'— A. X(»; I siijijiose not. I,', Tlicy would be trailing vessels ? — A. Ves. l^ lias the tonnage of (iloucester engaged in trading with the West |liiilies and iOurope and other parts increased ? — A. Yes, and the coast- li? trade. ^l L\\i\\\<<; all the fishing — the homo fishing for cod, haddocik, and llialiluit, on ill! the l)anks, and fishing in the gulf — has it, on the whole, priiisedor (liininished ?— A. I think it has inorea.sed somewhat. Q- [Jilt tile iiKjiease has been in what branch of the business? — A. ""■"'tly ill the c(»astiiig trade. Perhaps our fishing has increased some- ^l lias the cod-fishing increased or decreased ? — A. It has increased. '^ And the bay fishing has decreased .'—A. Yes. 1 V »' .i:in'--'^ ,: ''^m -i-;#,*>. ^^ff^^^ 2956 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. By Mr. Thomson : (^. You stiittMl, in answiM- to !Mr. Daiiii, that you did imi know ;iii\ |M^is«)ii hclonjiinfj tt) tho J{oston Hoani of Trade in the lisiiin;; IiiisIim'ss J)o you know th« nienibors of tho IJoiud of Trade who ri;iiii(.,| ii,;,, report in Lsr*."*'/ — A. No. Q. Th«'n you did not nuian tlie (Jonnnissioners to unihTsland jt ^h coinposetl by fjn'iitleinen who liad notlnnf*' to «lo with the irade. |)i) ^,,11 know a sin^ih- man wlio composed tlie report '! — A. No. (). Tlien you eannof nmh'rtake to say that tluMe was no man wliowas not enj^ayed in the lishin{{ l>usiness? — A. I know there is no (llonccsti.i nnm. By Sir Alexander CJalt : Q.. Is tho l'.dlin{^ otV in the fishing, in the (lull' of St. liawrciic, attributed by you to its bein;;: less prolltable . You say tliat tliis year tlui nniekerel were repoited to he mw abundant in the bay und that induce«l you to send nioHMtl vouim'sscN to tlui bay '. — A. That inducetl us to send wliat we did. \V(! did imt intend to send any — we sent one. i).. Would it be your opinion that, if the niac-kei'el should be as pltn tiful in the bay as they wern in for-m^r years, t'le lloet would a;,Miii ),m as they di«l betoro ? — A. If they were s(!arce on our coast, they iiiij;lit, Q. Under similar circianstances, they would «'(> ba(;k. Do you nu'iii they did not no to the bay because they found lishinuestion. Are you collector of the port of Gloucester ?— Answer. 1 iiui Q. How long have you been so ? — A. Eight years. i}. la it your duty as collector to issue papers to all vessels soiiigoiii of Gloucester ? — A. It is. (^>. What is the character of the |)rti)ers you issue ? — A. Three kimls- domestic and foreign — a register fishing licen.se and coasiiu},' liet'iise, Q. Does the register or fishing license include the i)rivil('}i(' totDiicliI and trade, or is it a special i.ssue ? — A. The privilege to touch ami inil is siniply what is connected with the fishing license by ap[>ii(;atioii innii upon the part of the captain or owner. (}. Explain what it is. — A. A vessel taking a fishing license and bciii desirous to touch and trade as part of the trip or the whole of it, iipiilit at the office for a permit to touch and trade, which is a paper that is i connection with the fishing license, and gives the same power toi tl)iii one voyage as a register. Q. Then, as I understand it, a fishing- vessel sailing from Gloiicesit with the intention to buy bait at Newfoumllaiul, or to buy frozen lioiiini^ would take out, besides a fishing license, a permit to touch and trade' A. It would. AWARD OF TIIK FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 2957 0 What is tlio (lillorencis eUluM- in cost or in inlviiiifjijjfd l)ofc\v«MMi tikVii""'" 'H"'''"'^' t«» f<»'<'*l» iind trades iiiid takiii;; a r(';,MsU'r ? — A. A iH>niii't l*> toiifli ii'id tradt^ would simply cost 2."» cmitH. In (sasi; a vtissid iiiMJcra lUliiii.u' litH'iiso wisiios to tako a r<«;;ist(ii' it has to j^ivo up tlio liiviise ami tiiU»i out a n'^istiT, wliicli would <',ost ■"!(-'. 2.1. Tlio other rtluiulitiiK's to whiuli th« V(^ss(d would Im liabhi uiKh^r a rc^^'istor wouhl li,. ;i tonna;;ti lax of thirty mints per ton, and also a hospital tax of forty ,Yi,ls |u>r inoiith on ('a(;h individual nnMiilx'r of tho crtnv for tin; tinicslio li.,iltli('iTf,n.stt'r. (t. I'lnliT a register the v«'sscl would havo to ciitJ'r and (ilcar at every Moi't, ami thai is a certain a liitensc with a |>erinit to tou(!h aiiiltraiU' she could <;o and con»e witliout any further entries .' — .V. ('ei'- liiinly. {^>, Tlicii tlios(> vessels pay none of tlui «luties yon refer t<» '! — A. With alisliiiij; lict'iise, with permit to toiuih and trade, no duties are exacted. (I. With re};anl to the hospital tax. That is paid on every entry? — A. )ii every entry of a vessel uuiler a rcf-istt'r. No hospital tax is exaeiitioa ami seizure for trading under a fishing license. !n herring it is in the way of trade? — A. fisiiL'onimerciid voyage. KUs tliere a drawback allowed on salt used in the lishing business ftlR'L'nited States?— A. There is tor all tisli taken by American ves- i:ulia\vl)aek allowed to the amount of the duty, eight (lents per one Niwl pomids. In LSTU the duty was eigliteen cents i>er one hundred "'Is mill it has been reduced in the tariff to eight cents i)er one hun- Wl I'Dllllds. 1^ T'^^k^ ^%^f a- 'if ;• : AfSPi • ^. ■>*»-(■ tii6*-vr:".,.. «*:.■-«*: 2958 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Q. Is it allowed to mackerel llsberiiieii ? — A. It is allowed lo all lish. ertnen. Q. Can you form an estimate of the amount of drawback allowed r Gloucester ?— A. About $50,()(M». Q. Are you able to say what portion of tliat ij'">0,On() wjis alloweil lor the niackerel lisheries as ajjainst those of cod ami other lisli .'_.v. At cording to the best of my.judjjfment about one-fd"th. 1 1 would be ULTord. in*; to tiio catch ; sometimes it would exeoeon that oath the bond is canceled. Q.. llave you any idea what |u-oportiou that !i| about June. .'{(), the end of the fiscal year, which, of couisc, is aiusiil mate, because there is no return at that season from wliicli to iiiiil;^ the table. Q. You have examined this return ;' — A. I have looked it overcasiij ally. (,>. Witliout reference to any other information, have yon coiiu! vdiusell to any con«dusiou from that return ? — A. JMy conclusion would be, asj comparative statement relating to the value of the bay lislieryaiuls fishery, that in 18(10 and ISfiT there is but little doul)t our Ciitclii'siii the bay ])er vessel exceeded those on oar own shores, but iu sutTi'cdi years, including 187<» an mbodies a portion of tlie losses aiil causes. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Witness liiuuled in the loUowinff t.able: 2959 onl(\ lu'iir I" !— A. 1 h,ive oil it ovev nm Siiecii'S of vessel. 1 Scliiioni'i' , .1.1 ■l ..Ai).... 4 ...do.... :. ...dci... li ...do.... ...do.... ...do.... 't ...do.... ') ...do.... 11 ...do.... li ...do.... 11 ....d.i ... il ...do... I'l ..do.... li: ...do.... i; ...do.... 1- ..do.... 1-1 ...do.... ;ii ...do.... ■il ...do.... ■!.' ...do... ■;i ...do.... il ...do.... ■2J ...do.... » ...do.... i; ..do.... •t. ..do.... i> ...do.... w ...do.... ;ii ...do.... a ...do. .. ;i) ...do.... 31 ...do.... 3.-. ...do.... :ii; ...do.... T. ...do.... }< ...do.... :ii ...do.... 111 ...do.... 41 ...do... 1. .. do.... IJ ...do.... 11 ..do.... 1. ...do.... (1 r ...do.... ...do.... Amn/.on KiiciidHliip .. .Vili'i.iii lii'iitile Valiio. ?o, (IflO •J, .MH) ;i, mm Mary ami Kli/,al>otli | 2,000 Ileiiiiclta ■ 1,(100 Itnuii'li I , .'lOO OnlvUaii:;lit(ir 1, .'lOO KnduiiilicH.s I 1,000 Kliit 1,000 I'liiioi'ton ;t, 0011 Jiiljiloo , '.too Diiniil r. Kinjr I 3, .lOO lii'il WiuK ; 1,400 (iiirl:iii(l 1,000 I'owlialtao I.-^llO Kloaiior ■!, 000 F.vit^aii T. CdUiv... .'i, Olio .Icihii (ieianl I, 01)0 '. Atlanta 3, loo (Icoan Star Iliiiiiiilial Aiiiiimta I'aiker .. Kill ili'l Niiite. ... I/ailrr.; (Miaiii|iii)ii Mnrv .Iiiiipn Aliilia I.idiii'S.s lla.ska •SaiiUH'l .loiii'.s Ailnitus Iliisi'a liallaii Man Hart Mcpiilczmiia Villa-t> liiOlo I Tlireo Si.sli'r.s I'rriniiiiii lii raiiiiiin i)(diii Franklin .Mcxamlria ( tiii'cii (if Clippors. Ktheliiiilb Henrietta I'iliit .Molicnit! (;iii|iii'tto 10. Iv. Iviini' Kupiiblic XarrnjianuMs M ...do. 41 ...do. Minerva Colonel AUeu. tl ..do . *■; ....do . * ...do . I « -...do . , ..do . I" ...do. |i» ....do. .1 Georgo F. JIar.sh.. .1 M. C Itdwo . (ieiieral Slipridaii. I Mnrtlia and Kli/,a. I Areida i Kaaliion .' Water Sjiirit Men limt, .|, (10(1 y, lioo y, t<00 '.', HOO 1,000 I, ."110 •J, .".00 700 1,-JOO :i, HOO :t, foo :i, Mio 1,'JOO :i, 001) •J, ;ioo a, ■ioo .'iOO HOO fOO 4, noo .|, 000 .1,(100 4,500 4, 000 1, tiOO :», i.'io ;i, yoo :i, 4(10 y, ."lOU •J, ono .il ..do K. H.Oakos (i, 000 Ji ..do Klla O.slidrne :i, -jiio M . ..do (li'i'an Travelli-r 4,00) 'A . ..do .Mpalpa •J, ."lOO 5J . ..do MarvH. Hill?, 7, ,")00 .« . ..do KoH.inth ia,ooo J" ..do Fearless ,'), .100 ;j» ..do ... Fli.otwiiif,' (i, ."lOO il .do Onzinibii H, Olio W . ..do Northern (.Jliicf !), Olio si ...do St. Lawrenoo 3, 300 ;t, rm la, 000 •31,000 10, .500 19, 000 4, -joo y, uoo 4, 500 !), 075 l(i ....• * With fares. 2960 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. Hproli'il iif VI'SMcIh. Niinio of vcHHi'l. Aldtv II. Krasor Vnln«. *(!, POO Mon loHt. Homo port. Oloiicextcr. . I)nt<'. IHfi!) 71 Schooner. . 78 ... do I'oiMinitiii li :i. oiHi ....do in;o 7.1 ...do .... Oooi'tii' K. Itntdliird 7, ."iOO n ...do ih:o 74 ...nio ....ilo t<. 000 i,:ioo I'j ....do ...do IH70 IH7I 7» Kxclmiini' 7« ....do.... I,i/,/,l(< A. Tiirr 7, :ioo ..do l.''7l 77 do .... ....do .... i,7mi 7, !I00 •■••1!" do IH71 1^-71 78 KlviT Quern 70 ,...do.... ....do .... .' lH7.t J-II ....do.... Clmrli'M K. Uiiiiio 7, 000 IH ....do in:;! P4 ....do.... Aiiiil.'T. Kiiciid ... •1, 700 Vi ....do lH7:i K, ..do .... liiiMil .\rcli tl, ."lOO II .. do If 711 Hi ...do .... Smniic'l (^rowi'U (i, ,MIO 1.-. ...do If 711 t-7 ...ilo •JlllllrH 'I'viiluioii I). 11. M.iiisll.ld 00 ... do If 7-1 !)7 ...do ... (Jiirrv Fnimi.s 7, :m ...do Irt7,'i !IH ...do .... lllooiiiimrdiilc i!, ;ioo ...do 187.1 !MI ...do Monmlii'ick 7. 01)0 ...... ....do If 7.'. IIHI ...do .... Hat 111" M. I.yoiin ... '1, !I00 ...do If7.'i 101 ...do .... .IoIjii M. Dod-jo ;i, 000 ....do If7.-i lO'J do Eail Kllswortli r>. :m ...do IS7fi io:i ...do .... Kclianci" :t. (ioo ...do 1H70 101 ...do .... .'...do Kishcr i,7r>.-> a, 100 ...do ...do If 7)1 If7)i lO,') (icdiKH Poaboily ... Wlicii. ll.Hl. I'apK N'i).'iii. Ship lliiil"'!. XnviiSciiii Nt'wInlllKll.iilil. Hay .SI, l,a\vri.rici. m ,|,| Cow lla\,C:i|h. Ui,,(,„| ' Manitiiii. I.iiIumiIi'i. Aruvic, Ndv.i Sciiiiii. Nii\a Sciitia. iMa^dali'ii lsl;iihl..i. Nt'wriiiiiMllaiiil. Do. Siililn Islaii.l. N'dva Si'niu Itay SI. l.iiwiviiiT N.iirr, <'api', I'linou ]-Ani\ iHJaiid. At Mi'a. Whilr 1I,;mI, At wa. Do. ■WJiitc Ifcail, \nva Si'iiii.i, (.'apt' (!aiisii. Niivii Sinii,!. I'orl MnlL;i.ivi',.\(ivaSniiij. Sliip llaili.T, Ndva Snpti,, Harbor lir \l\i- Mit;lda'c'ii IslaiuU. Nl'Wt'nilllilliulil. Do. PasHa^i' IV.uii N'cwii.ini. Iaii(l. Malpr(|iM> li;ii'. Woodv Island, ('a|i|.r,r.liiii. Ma;;clali'ii NI.iikIh. ("api' ll";;aii. Capr IliTtiin Old Man sl,ccl(;i>, Vi.,.\"ri .Si'dlia. Ma^rdalcn KlaaiN. (' unci. l/OoiHl)iii'i;. Hay St. Lawrence. Gl.OUC'F.STKI!, .1/(11/ 11, \'". Thu above list couiprolu'nd.s tlio iiaiiios of tho vo.smcIh lost, tlicir viiliiMtion, iiinl tlio niinilttT of iiioi) lost, troll) the district of (iloiicesf or, from IfJIKI to .liiiiiiaiy 1, 1?TT; ^iM r. How far hack does the retnrn' go ? — A. To 1S3(>. By Mr. Tiescot: Q. The returns show where each ve.'^sel was lost ' — A. Where it n^ lost was reported at the oflice. By Mr. Thomson : Q. It is not a comparative .statement of the los.ses in the gulf aiulcij your shores in the same period' — A. No. 1. Nova S4'ii i;i. mil. vrriH'*' n1 ^t :l ;l|ir lill'ljill idniiili'i. v.i Snilia. :i. IshiixlH. l>tii<\. l.i, NdVll N «\',.\. [.iiwri'iicc Ni.r!;i 'iinc« !■ In. 11 nil. •!lll, N'llVil SoilLV 1 mi, Niivii Sroli.i. ^v.ivi\N'. V ',\T'..;. ..N..V1 (■11 MiHiil". 1. Iwrpiifi'. LjvulfaiHl^ -; AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMLSSION. 2901 Ry Mr. Trc'scot: Q Prom your oflicial records can you tell ino whether the toniiaKO of (ildiicfster Iiiis Increased or diminished from 1800, and in what branches of iMisiiiess ?— A. I have hero ii copy from the books of the tonna^'c of (HoiuM'stcT tVoMi IS(Jl) and number of vessels emi>loyed in the different li|.,„i,.,lios of business. Witiit'ss read the followinfj statement: Slakmciii of the tounn(/e of (he (liHlricf of Glouecsfn; June '?(), of each year. \'i.'). .'il<> vessels lict^iiWMl for fisliericH 21, ."'(1.04 ,"il vcssi'ls lici'iiNcd for f.oaNtin^ 'J, 777. HO i;i vcsst'ls lictiiisml tVii' forcij;!! triulo l.lltl.o'.t 'm Total 2'J,0&l.{y.i l-;ii. Tilll vi'.sscls Iic((n.H(i(l for fisli<'riH(».HO l-;i. H) vMHols licenced for (iHlioricH 21, 274. 81 (« vessels lictiiiHcil for coiiMting 4, :{1H. ;i(> 7 vessels foreign trmlo 1, I'.WJ. 24 ■M Totiil. 2<»,7H1»,:{1 1-*J. 44"^ vessels licensed for fisliorieH 22, 174. 57 ,'i7 vessels licensed for eoaHfing 4, 47.'>. !I0 i;i vessels foreign trade 1,0'.);}. 42 ,')W Total 27,74:{.K) Ivi, W ves.sels liecnsed for lislieries 21, llCrl. .'.'J '.14 vessels lieeimed foreoiiMting 7,110. (il 7 vessels foreign trade i)07. 7 1 Wl Total 21^, 'Jrt2. :!4 l-'l. 'M vessels lieensed for tlHlieries 20, 421.!i2 'M vessels licensed for coiLsting 7,1M7. 00 Ii vessels foreign trade 407. 01 4yt; Total 28,77r).:i6 1-". 'M vessels licensed for (isheries 20, (i4*). 44 '.'7 vos.si'ls licensed for coasting f, .'>'.( 1. .^)1 4 vess, Is foreign trade ;").");"). 31 4iir) Total 2'J, 7:i;{. 2(5 K'l 414 vessels licensed for fisheries 22, 40-'. 31 1"0 vessels licen.setl forecasting ll,12l..")0 5 vessels foreign trade .' 1,051. 40 ■fi'i Total 34,5-1.27 '"■' 4119 vessels licensed for fisLing 22,424.55 1'^ vessels licensed forecasting..... It, 14"^. 00 10 vessels foreign trade 1,71>5. 41 ^17 Total 33,r67.!)6 180 P Upr- ... ij^rl -'.,^- , ,''»r '«« 0 i-v^^^^ 2962 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. By Mr. Diivies : Q. Have you i)roduce(l a statement from the custom hoiiso hooks of Gloucester showing tlio number of vessels engaged in the lishcriisl during the Keciproclty Treaty ? — A. I cannot say that I liave dimth I don't know whether 1 have furnished it or not to ]Mr. Foster umlirl llie certificate of the odice. Q. You have not put it in your evidence ? — A. Not at the prosint tim.., Q. Can you produce it for n>e now? — A. I cannot wiihijut refiMm,- to tlie books of the ottice. Q. Are the books of the <»flice in Halifax ? — A. No. Q. Did you bring down with you any such statement? — A. No; I ilj not. Q. When you say the statement might have been given to Mr. Foster! you mean you might have given it to him in Boston ? — A. 1 j;aveliiinjii| Boston a number of statements relating to the business ot (JloiiccsttrJ and there might have becji a sfeatement of that kind among them, cannot give a statement of that kind todj^y, because I caimot reimn! ber what classification I made for him with regard to vessels. Q. This statement you have submitted only commences with 18(111 .'-I A. Yes. Q. ^Vhy did you take that year to begin with ? — A. I had no s[)('cijl| reason. Q. Is it not curious you should have commenced with tliat yeai !-AJ It is nothing very curious. Q, What special benefit was there in a paper showing the toiiii,);' from ISGO to 1S77 ? Does it cover a period of years which would oiiablJ any one to form a fair idea of the trade of Gloucester ?— A. It woiilj simply show the business of Gloucester in the years from 180!) to IS", It covers a period embraced by the Washington Treaty, and a pciioi when there was no Ilecii)rocity Treaty in operation. Q. It is of value only as showing the actual tonnage during tliosj specified years? — A. That is all. I thiidc there have been reports ij Gloucester papers by which it appeard that the tonnage was 'Mi tons, and the impression was conveyed that it was all engii^i'tl i" lisheries. I culled that statement to show where the gain has been foj the past few years. Q. Those vessels that are classed in the statement as coasting vessfli what are we to understand they are engaged in ? — A. Perhaps von wi allow me to explain how we come to have a larger tonnage. A few yeaif ago three-masted schooners were a specialty with our people, more es| cially for the carrying of coal from the State of Pennsylvania, and tivJ three, or four vessels of larger tonnage were built for that purpose ; wt of course, we have a large number of vessels carrying stone from liooj port. That embraces about all our coasting trade. The large yai principally in the three-masted schooners. Q. i)o you wish the Commission to imply from this statement the fisheries of Gloucester have decreased ? — A. I have no wisiiintl matter, except to put the plain facts before the Commissioners, ami may draw their own inferences. Q. Is that your own mind, your own impression 1 — A. I have an i( pressiou that the number of vessels is decreasing; the tonnage is v« nearly the same. The vessels that are being built are of large toiiui^ and more able to prosecute the different branches of the fisheries, Q. Does not the statement show an increase in the number ot vj sels? — A. Not to a very great extent ; it does for the last two years. Q. Compare 1809 with 1877. In 180!) the tonnage was 2!),081, auJj AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2963 mo siuce personal —A. Jfo. preparation ? — A. IS" 3 v'lfi^ <^'^"'''» which is an increase, thonfjh not a very large in- i,f,,^^e »__A. You will observe that in ISOO 2-4,()00 tons were engaged in fishing as against 22,000 tons in 1877. The gain is on the coasting. Q. 1 suppose 1 would be correct in sajMng that in an equal number of ^g.^rg^ iinmetliately preceding 18()0, the tonnage had largely increased. for iustauce, from 185!) to 180'J 1 — A. I could not say about that with- out referring to the books. Q. Does it not strike you as curious that you have come here to give statistics to the Ooramissiou, and yet do not produce from your books statistics showing what the tonnage was at the time of the commence- ment of the Reciprocity Treaty?— A. I am perfectly willing to produce tliein. My only object is to place the facts as nearly as 1 can before the Coininicsioii. {}. Tliere were some statements put in by you. You know nothing about tlieiii ?— A. Not personally. Q. Who handed them to you i — A. They have been sent to I Imve been here. Q, Have you read thenj ? — A. I have looked them over. (I You Ivuow nothing about them ? — A. Not of my own knowledge. Q. You (lid not prepare them ? — A. No. Q. You liaci nothing to do with their preparation ?- (}. You cannot speak of the correctness of the Other than I can vouch for the fidelity of my own ollicer. (^>. Tliose papers were put in your hands, and you handed them to the Commission ?— A. They were sent to me. Q, It appears from the allidavit that those papers were furnished to Mr. Biatchl'ord by certain firms in Gloucester, and were not made up by bim?— A. Not made up by him, but he went to the firms direct. (}. And a.sked them for the statements, and they gave them to him? — A. Yes. Q. Tliose statements are not under oath? — A. No; they are not sworn, e.Kcept so far as Mr. lilatchford's allidavit covers them. Mr.DAViES asked if it was intended to put in the statements in regard tothehusiiiess done by the Gloucester firms. Mr. Foster said that Sir. Davies, in cross examining one of the I (iloucester witnesses had expressed a desire to have a statement of the i business of all the firms in Gloucester, and accordingly he (Mr. Foster) sent down to Gloucester and had that statement obtained, lie put it in for whatever value may be attached to it. It bore a somewhat striking lesemblaiice to the return of the catches made by the collector at Port Jlaigrave, printed as an appendix to the liritish Case, except that these contain the catches from 1809 to 1870 or 1877, while the collector at Tort pinlgrave gave them for 1873, 1871, and 1877, omitting 1875 and 1870. j Mr. Daviks said he asked for a statement covering the period of years hluriug which the Reciprocity Treaty was in force, and these statements I dill not cover that period, but, on the contrary, covered a period of time pbieh he did not ask for and did not want. Mr, Foster said he did not hear anything about the period of the jfociprocity Treaty until a few days ago, and he had told Mr. Davies jtliiU if a counsel was sent to examine the books of merchants ofGlou- |«or,tbey could have access to them. I Mr. Davies submitted that there was an important dift'erence between pe submission of the Port Mulgrave returns and these returns. The Ituruier were embodied in the British Reply, while the latter they could jiiot cross-examine uijon, because the witness said he knew nothing !:!' m 1 frH ■:i^^w 9^i«ii L'OGl AWAKI) OK rilK I'lHIIKKY COMMIHHION. iiliotit tlio roiilfiits, iitid tlii'v iiiiihI Im< ii(M'i>|iI)\iiiiiiniitit)ii. Mr. I''()S'I'K,|{ siiid lii< put in tlii^ .sltil«>iii<iiili\ 10,'' DoniniontM fll«>il with the srcii'i;ii tiir lliiiititx Cotuiiii.ssioii, iin«l r<I,iii|| .liilv, IS77, in snppiM't oi' tli«>« of ll<(«in;4' n^rolnrnof lliiitcd Sliilcs niiicIu'iTlllsliin;,' xcsscis llH'ir ratfli in IS7.'5, as icclunnMl at port Mnlj;rav<>, N. S,, liy t| 'it tbt \ 111 I tliiy (it '"i\i'iii . -H' Cdl. Ii'ctoi' of cnsloniN al lliat port," and a .similar return for Hh' iit'\( vrm At llioendit \vas,si;;m'd David Mnrray, colU'i'tor of I'ori Miilji^mvc ivi,! rnar.v *.», is;.*!. Mr. DaviisS said lli<> slalcnu'iif from MitM-olliM'lor at Wni Miil;;i;iv,. had lu'tMi Uoforo tho Anu>ri*'an connsol almost siniMt tln^ <'iHiiiin>iin'iiii'iit of tho sittin^^s, and tli«\v had liad ainpio opportnnitifs ol asiritiiiiiin;' i^ trntli and cross cxamininf; witiuvssrs on it. 'I'ho pa|MI oniittc vessel I'll, II sliiiiv s Weil' II'V (>inplo,ved in their respective trips. It wonid he reineiiilu'riMJllini i| ahva.Ns cross (<\amim>tt on that |)oint, holdin;; that the value of iImmhih. parison depemled on tiu) length of tini«> the vessels w«'re ciii|ilii\((|. Mr. l''(>srKK' said he lhon^ht> sach a position shonid noi he tnkci gentlemen who had introdnceii hearsay evidentM^ from the Im'^miiiiiii;'|ii] th(« end of tiie case, and who (mi .'totii .Inly pnt in those I'oit Mul^rmvei statements l\»r st'lectcd years, omitting the years ISV.'i and ISId, wlun it was well known the llsheries failed in Ihi^ fiulf, and relused toinoilii the retnrns for the years upon hi.s retpiest, which he pnl on iIm'iikiIiiiiiJ book, that there mij4;ht< W no mistake about it. If an appciil uiisniailt Itt liim with regard to the evidiMU'c, he thon<;'ht th(^ evi(len(!t> lii>iiii\n prolVcred wascpjite as jjood as the statement pnt in from tliectilicctoroj Tort Mnl};rave. ISnt if what lh«> Hritish connsi>l really wanh'd wasiii formation on the sabject, let them .ntu-eplr tlu^ oiler that. Ii.nl hi'cii iiiidi and send sonH> «)m^ to (Ih)ucester and have the whole reliniis takiiiJ The statement he submitted stood lik<> all statistical evideiict', iiiiiieol iiillliiU .s!,illl which was based npon the oath «)f the original s(Mirce. yiv. Thomson cited the rnh>s regardinij noti<'«i to produce, and s; by the notit'O };;iven by Mr. l-'oster he re(|uired thiMn to proilm^e siili live evidence, ami if he had been rifj;ht lie niifjhl have rciiiiiivil liit'intJ {jive any evidence lie tliouj;ht proper. As to tim stateaient oi' tlnuoj lector ot Port Mnlijrave, it was pnt in with tho British Kci»ly. The" ish eonnsel had not time to test the accuracy of the statciiiciit tliiitlii^ been tendered. In the former instaiuic it was not jmt in as imitnl evidence, but was tiled as |>art of the case in reply; hat in tiic lalt^ the statement was pnt in as evitlence. Mr. KosfKU said the liritish counsel had, hnndreds of times, piiti ovidonw what somebody told somebody else. Mr. Thomson said they had {;iven iicarsay evidence hcciiiisc it ^l admitted orijiinally, and tlie American counsel commenced it tlieinsc by cross examininji' on hearsay statements. In this iminiry it was; possible they conld carry it t)n without giving to a very jiieat rtt«^ hearsay evidence; but the moment a tabular statement was preseiitj vevilied by no one, and not coming in as part of the answer ou the Am^ can side, they had the right to refer to the rules to see whetlierit with the evidence to be admitted. He held it did not. .Moreover.it' put in on the very last day. Mr. FosTEU. VVhose last day ? AWAIfh OK IIIK KIHIIl'.UV CiiMMIHSION. L'lMif) IISS1(1\1 Willi. fxllillil tll.l! si'cn'tiiiy III > ;i(Hli (liiyi.l tty's (i(i\('iii V»'HSt«lH mill ,, 1»\ I III' idl. lie next yi'iir, iil;;niV(', I'Vli. (irt Miil^^iMW iiiiiiii'iH'i'ini'iit ^I'l'itiiiiilu;; IN lOW HItlllilll III] lii'\ iiii|ir;m'il, iiiiMit'iiii slimv i\ vessels wcvr leretl I lull tlii'vl liie 111' llien eiii|tli>,\eil. 11)1 lie tiiki'li livl it> lie|,'iuiiiii|:tol Port Miil;;iiive| uihI ISTll, wlii'iil 'used ti)l>niilm'C t, 111! ll'e lIliniiilH ppeiil wiisiniiilJ n'itleiiee hi' n«i I) tlKM-itllcftoril !• wauleil wii^i' 1,1(1 been mull n'tuius takciii ideiiee, noiii'Ol .»., ;\ihI siii'i m roiiiiee sulisUiil •iliiireil tluMiill ,ineiit, ot'tiiewU iM)lv. Thellri) U'lneiit tliiit liil in as i»iivt et' ;t> l)iit ill Uie l;"t< times, put' . lu'causo it ^^^ •oil it tliemjt'l* Hjiiiry it ffi'*' •orv ^n-eat fSt^ ,t was iiieseiiij Jvcr (»u the A'liJ fee wUetlu'i"' Moreover.it' Mr. TiloMMiiN. Yoms? \li' I'lisri'.n. rciliiiiil.v. Mr. Kki.i.<)<'** iihK('(I to wliiit iiilr tlir ISrili.Hli cMiiiiMt'l r(>r«'ri'i>' ^'ii*l tlx^ IliiliNli rniiiisi^l piil in Ihrir Htiitist j(t,s, ii iniiN.s of Ihi'in. oil the Ins! tlii.v oC llicir iividnin-. Mr, TlinM.'~:i)N iv\u\ IIm^ rhnciitli iiil<>. linn. Ml'. Ki'.i.l.oclil niiIiI tloil li inoililiciilioii ol lint iiilr in rci^'iinl |(» iilliihivils iiail Im'cii tiNNcnh'tl in. A.sidt* rroiii licit, no iiiii'.stion coiiM ;irisivtiiic,\. H tliti ii^imiIh or ('(HMiNel on ciflii'i' .si;lit al'Oiit rriiin! I'ldward Island, Hinall si/n ma<',keii . : tlie. hest, and l.iri;i.s| were eaii;.;lit, al Ma;^^daleii Islands. This may not lie u true niini Wiot lianeis ; only gathered this Ironi tlii^ vnssel men ; they call tlie.in lli;iti|iiiiiilit,v ; it. is not, iiiii<;li out, (il" thn way either way." When he IliHiml tliose slatemeiils he called for HJinilar Ht.ateiiieiits lor the. I.wo f'ol- Jliiwiii;; years, IS7."» iiiid IH7(», mid Im had Uepl, re.niindin;; the e.oiin.sel liiliniii tlii'iii. One of llio IOii{{lish (loiiti.se.l in (;rosH exiiminin^ one, of the ll'iiitt'ii .Stales wiliiessos, did HO Croiii a paper which they said was .Mr. Jjliinay's slaleiiieiit of what, Aim^rican v«^s,sels had caught, this year, nlieri'iipoii lie(,Mr. l''oster) (talledlor it,, and ^^ol it, in as part, of the, Icriisscxaiiiination. Mr. Wkatiikuiik asked if tint paper was not, an ollicial report, m idc |kyMi'. .Murray to the depai'tiueiit. Mr. F()sri;i;. No. Ml. WkaiiikijiiI'', said if the paper was of tlie, charaiiter of one pre- fcaivil siiiee the treaty wiMit. into operation, and to he, pnvsented Ixv ptlic (Jiiininission, the rnl(!S should he, cont'ornKMl to, and it should ho |irc-* '^ . »^! ^ fit , --.,*, W% V ■"*'■,.•**.«! 21 G6 AWARD OF THE FI8IIKRY COMMIHHION. sr •'111 tho (}«)V«'nmnMit of Mmi Unitotl Htaft's, Im^ (Mr. Foster) prcsciiicd as fvitloiUM' iiuantutn valiiit. Mr. TilonisoN saitl (liat lu'arsay ovidriHU', tlionnh it w.-is nof usiialiv adiiiiltcd by jiuliiiial tribunals, was adiiiitttMl of tliis licscriiition : i-vj (ItMicoof iiiiorinatioii parties had ohtaitinl in the ('oiirsi^ <*l CoiivtTsii tioii ill r(>};iu'd to tlic particular inattcr in hand, at a tiling in niiMMtistan. (Ts ont of ttMi, wliiMi tlu'y had no reason to know of this iiaiticniai tribunal or inquiry, and tho ]H>rsons, thoreforo, liad no ohjtct toovi'i roach. That was not the charaeter of the evitlenei^ now <)llcr(M| ; tiij, consisted of liearsiiy evideiuie obtainetl from dilVerent linns in (IIoikcs. ter, for the espeinal purpose of all'ectiii^j this tiibniiiil, and inado |(\ i,, person under oath. If the olli(!ial had visited the ililVcrciif stonxami asked the ditVeient persons to show him their books, and it lie \,;u\ sworn on exaiiiiiiin<; those books the statements siilniiittcd wen; irm.' copies, then it would be evi«leniH\ Hut hero were people under no oath but knowing; well that an in(]iiiry was jroiiij; on in which llicir couiitrv was interested, who ^ave to tho onUiialjust what they thonf,'lit propcf, True, ho might state that ho believed tho statements true copies iiDm the books, but unfortiinntely tho Commission had no knowli>d)r<> of tin' tact. That was the difl'erencc between the testimony wliicli iiadlitcn admitted and that now otVercd. Mr. FosTioit sailn, from tliat ilowii f 1 will ipiul from llio letiirnH: (Keailiiijj tlii" iimmum nt' vtssih | ami catclioH.) TIk-ho aro i»iiH>«'rt'«l from tho rctiirim rcportod liy iIhmii. Mr. rosTKit. Do you Hiibmit tliat to onr iiiMpi-ction. Mr. Davik.s. Cortaiiily. I woiiltl not, liavti roatl it otherwise. (I',x|iliiiii in iiii<«ir i to Mr. FoKtor that tliL'Ho aro retiirnN of veHscls that liavo Ituen in (hit buy and ;;'i:ii' j home, aH they reported theiimelveH at ('aoNo.) Q. Now, luivo yon heanl of any of thcHo veMHoln that nuido any of thoHo ri'tiirns .'- I have hcar«l of some of these vessels writinjf home. if. Have the returns you have heard aeeoided with those I havt; read ?— A, I ,i1iod1J| tbiuk uot. *.}. Vou don't know whether these rctiuns aro correct or not .' — A. 1 ddii'l kinnvtiiiil they are. i). If they were would yon bo inclined to modify your Htatoment as to tho catdiesiaj the j;ulf .'— A. No; 1 would not. Q. Yon still persist in the statement you made? — A. I don't nnythinKalioiitit, (^>. l?ut 8ni)posinp it eorre<'t, if it turns out to he correct, from eoniparison wllhinil-l lished returns in (Jloncester jiapers ? — A. Well, that might perhapH Iiavo tlu' sm'l infornuition upon which that is based. Q. You would consider the reports in Gloucester papers to be incorrect ?— A. MiJalj say any such thinjj. t^. Would you place reliance upon them ?— A. As a general thing I woiilil. Q. What did yon mean by sayiiii; that, tho (Jloueester papers nii<;lit, liivvi' tlii'>a;:w| information as that I have read if — A. Tho crews sometimes report iiuuc tliaiiili'; actually cateh. (jt. Then we cannot believe tho reports we see in those papers? — A. Well, tl.iriii;i;l ered by persons engaged by tho inspector to ascertain the catch from the captaiui. If this had not gone in with the evidence, he proposed to put itiua a paper on which tho witness was cross-examined. Mr. Davies said that when cross examining a witness, with rej| to the number of American vessels in the bay, and the number of I rels they caught, he held up a paper in his hand and asked whetbertli| AWAKI> OK TIIK FIHIIKUY COMMISSION. •jnriT ardi ^.^scl (':iiiul>t '^'i*''* '^ (|tiiiiitity. Mr. I<\>.st4>r usUimI liiin it' it wjih ii icttini, „iilli,i (Mr. l>avi«'M), said it wiis a nitiini, iiti*l expliiiiicil that it was in ,i„ sense 111! ttlVu'ial om\ .Mr. l'N»stor iiNkod liiiii, at tlici closji ol' Mi»i ex- jiiiiiialioii, it' li<^ would let liiiii see it, and ho ^'avo him thn doniinciit. |i»,is,li(i»t>v(r, oiil.v part (»r what h(^ had held in his liaiid ; it wis in no I si'iisc nil otlit'ial r(H;ord ; ittlid not purport to lie hucIi, and was not read In liiiii lis siu'li ; but was only us«'d l»y him lor tlio purpoMii ol' cro.s.s• |,.\,ll^ill:lti•"'• Mr. I'osri'.ii said, if tho otIuM' part was produ(t(Ml, lii^ woidd put it in. Sii Ai.i'AANDKH (}Ai/r Huid lici did not think Mr. Foster could [uit in III ot' tlio otiu'r siil(*. Mr. I'osTKi; reread tint (uossexaniimitioii ntferred to, and said it Ict.vt'U'd the paper. Sir Ai.KXANDKU (lALT askt'd wlietlier l\Ir. Fost(^r or Mr. l-'ord put in iherctuni, tor .some one must |Mit it in and be responsible tor it. Mr. KosTF.ii said a ])aper ibrmini; a Hubjeet matter of ero.s.st^xamina- lion was nt the disposal of thu counsel on l)oth sides of the ca.se, and if tlieciiiiiisol o|)pi>.sed to the one who cross-examined, calls for thu ]iaper, lit must Ih> protlueetl. When produced and inspected, hci had the ri^lit |tii|tiitit ill as he pleased, not as independcuit evidence of his own, but |ib|i;irt of the subject matter of the cro.ss-examination. That cpn'stion Iciiiii' lip in courts frequently in this way. A coun.sel cross-examines a tiii'ss iis to the contents of a letter tlio witness is said to have written, iltlii'lotter is introduced by thecro8S-examinln}jcoun.sel by wayofcon- nilii'tiiig the witness, but it is incompetent to be introduce«l as substan- il I'vidence on either side. Then, as there has been cro.ss examination jjf tlio witness upon it, the party hau the riyht to have the letter read he case. Sir AlkxaNdkr (lAi/r. Wlio i)uts the return in ? Mr, FosTi'-R. 1 put it in, not as substantive evidence on my side, but Jsupapor drawn out from the other side, which the mode of their cross- nation entitles me to have in the case. I Mr, Thomson said there was no such rule of evidence known to IJrit- kli coiirLs as that laid down by Mr. Foster. Counsel may for the pur- lose orcro.s.sexainination produce a paper and ask a witness whether ' had written a certain statement at variance with tho.so he was then Jakiiji;, hut before counsel could do that he must have the written lateiiu'iitin liis hand and submit it to the Jud^ai, and satisfy him that iwa.siiot attemi)ting to frighten the witness by an ima},'inary paper. Jiewitiies.s was then recpiosted to state whether such a statement was [aileby liini in writing; but that gave the op[)osing counsel no right Make the jiiiper. It remained entirely with the counsel as to what use Mlioiild make of it afterward to contradict the statements of the wit- Kiliiriiiij; the examination ; if the witness admitted that he had made la written statement, then he might be asked as to how he recon- ledllie testimony he had given with the written testimony ho had given (tbttime. Such a rule as that mentioned was unknown to any British prt-tiiat the fact of a counsel cross-examining a witness on a pai)er, ptlie control of the paper to the opposing coun.sel. llii had never plot' such rule in any American court, though, of cour.se, he would lattempt to place his opinion regarding the rules of United States m against those of Mr. Foster. If Mr. Foster, as agent of the [ited States, intended to take the paper and put it in evidence by Still of it having been in the hands of one of the British counsel lor Ijiurposeof cross-examination, he must take it and put it in as part pis evidence, vouching for its authenticity, and being responsible for prrectiics.s. ■g^^^-i^ „„:,',.,;, 4^'*t2 U.KiS AWAUD OV I'lIK I'lHIIKUY (!(>MMlHh!l(»N. iiv?!:(,. Hull, Mr, Kl',l,l,(iij() iihKimI wliiil whm llic niolioti in mimkI III ii 11111 MT, Mr. TMiniMON siiitl lie iiiulor.slooil IMr. iMtnlci \\,ih nlVcrJi r i;; II HI "Vi ^Ir. I>A>;A sMid IkmIIiI iioI no iiiMlrrMtiiiHl il. A t|iM'sliaii ;ii IIMl' 11;, wIii'IIhm' IIi«> i>in>t>r whm or miis iidI in ovi»l«'ii("(>, I'lio .S(ii<-;i| it wi.s iiol put ill, iiiiil tlio Ajit'iil of tll(^ Hiiilnl Stutivi tlimij^lii n |^,,, ill. If it wiiM ill. ii(» motion «'oiil»l 1)0 iiiadr I'lir \\ illiihiiwiiifj it ; il' ii uns not ill, tlio »|ii(\stion WHS not wliotlior llioy Nlunild now ptil i| ni, Inn wliotlior il Wits not iiii «Mror tlint it whs not in. 'Tlioir iiosilioii \v;is tliat (lio |)i»|M'r wont into tho OiiNO r«> was II tiiistiiUo intulo in not liainlin^ llio piipoi' to ilir Siv n'lMvv, »'!• ill tlio Scciotm.v not iindorslaiKliii}; it was put in, ili('\ conlii roctit',v it now, not as IrMtiniony otVortMl l»\ «)no sido or I ho otlirr side imw. lint as soinolliiiiK; (liat lion>tol'oi'o slioiild liavo bociiin flioc;iHi<. Tlim' ill till' loiiiidcd nil h' was no voi'v jxrcal dilVoiiMico in llMM'oniinon law as adininiMlt'icil I'nitod Stat<'s, (;n>at Itiilain. and lli«> colonios, Il was all roason. Suppose a cross (>\aininin|i; oonnsrl asUs a wiliioss wiictluM I wroto a ocriain papci', tlion on lliat piipor lioin^j; piddiiccd Ity liiiti, imi Icr mill as o\ idoiicc on liis own sid(>, Itiit to oontradit't or iiii|)i>acli iIm< <-|i;ir;i,' *>t tlu> witiH»*s, or to diininisli tln» W('i;ilil of liis IrsliiiKtiiv, and t| piM' is niado llio siilijci't inalt(>rol' oross ovainiiialion, that cioiisixi at ion j:d a pap(>r and crosscxaniiiicd a wiiiuss upon il, and liad tlic cross examination cntor«'d on tln^ rccmd, ami iIhi tlioii-ilil It would suit him hclliM' to liav(< tln> paper on wliicli ihc ciihs «'\ainiiialion was l)as(>d in his poeket an«l put il. there, in what posiim:! would the w It iie.-'s stand on the record f Any indu»>. readiiii,' (la' cuks. e\ainiiia(ioii. would sav thai lie conld not understand llie wiinr >n| lorin an opinion as to the value ot" his testimony unless lio s;ih tlh' paper. In sneli cases it is coiisidiMcd an essential jiail of llie cinssiv: amiiiatioii, and eoiins(>l cannot withdraw it and put it in liis jidiiui. The jury has the rij^lit. in ordtM- to nmlersiand (he testimony of tlii'«i[ iMvss.to see the i»aper on which tln> tpuvst ions w«>r(> founded. In tli('|iivs ent case. Mr. l-'osler had read the cross examiiialion of the witness uml 'I'c paper pr(>dnc»>d (\tr tliepiirpos(> of hiscrossexaininiilion. Tlici; jms lion simply was that the pap»>r was an essiMitial piirf ot' tli(> cniss-cxi!! iiiati»M», or was a sniVh'ient part of the cross i>xaininati<»n (o aiiilmri/ej «'iUier party w ho .1 esired il lo put it into tlit> «'asellial llie cross oxmi ation miiiiit be understood. The parly wln> produced it iiii;ilil |ml Hi not as ori'-.inal testimon;, to |)rove his case, hut assoinelhiiii;' wliii'l!, iiEJ der the oral stahMiients of tho witness. atVects the witness. If the siiitej uuMits of the witness went into the record without the paper eii wlmiij he was eross-exauiineil, he was atl'eelecl unfairly. Tiu^ court wc DO (loiiht. declare that as cininstd had seen lil to erossexaiiiinc tliowi;^ ness on t'le paper, in order that everything' may he ninlcrstodil justice dt no to the witness, the paper must };o in with the cross i'xainin| arion. dr. Fo.-^ter Iiad supp(vsi>d tin* paper was already in t lie ciiv ; li (]\1:-. r.ia.i^ i\^uKl not say he ditl so, for he had forgotten llie traii^si tioe. He liiou^ht Mr. Thomson had referred to some other iiuiiit, torilj Could not be held that ci)unsel could crossexvmiiio a. vitnoss Iroaij paper, and say to ili.> court and opposiuj; counsel, " I insist on tin' aaj swers of the witness <^oiug down, but I also iiu^.ist upon imttiiij;' tr paper into the ! e." Mr. TueoisoN said that no witness could be crossexaiuiiiC!l ouaj 1^^., AWAIM) OF IIIK nMKKIfV COMMIHHION. 2U(][) ,ii j)ii, H(>iiM(> lofcrnMl ((> It.v Mr. Diiiiii, «^x(',opi, in rc^^iird U> it, |i(i|(fir of vliiili iit' IdkI pci'Hdiiall.v K'Vf'ii rvitl(Mi«'.(i, or ««Iho in to^fufi In ii |»)I|m'I' ^I'Mi'd !i,v hiiiiHi'll. II' wim iinpnK.Hiltln Ini' a wilnoHsi l,o hr ••ros!!i cxiiniiiicfl ^i,J",, |,ji|i('i', f\c<"))l iin I"' ii;nl vnlMntrciiMl (n t;iv(M«viapt'r 'va,M put, in. Tlic It .Htnnony Htottd iiiilv i'IkiiikIi. IMr. DaAirs had irad what hn pl<'aH witiM'MH if fifu-U was ••.orn'nt, or inc,on('(d, ; that w^m »ill. Wiiiili'vcr w.is said It.v Mi'. !>iivi»'M, and IIm* anHW«'r.4 oC llM^ wilih'H.s l,r» ilmi|iivslinii, wi'ir rakcii down. lliMlid not. wihIi to lluowjany diCiir.nlty iiitim way, ami waw ijiiifcN picparcd lo diHciiHn Mm qncsition as it if, had liiiscii at tin* tiiin^ of fhi' j'.roHK l^xaminatlon. IT tin' AiiMTicati coiirmcl Ii;iiltlii> mkIiI on thai, day lo lai(;ive it, to hiiii, ami no court, wiiiild have oUlijied iiiii' lo do so. That |»a,per ha.viii|^ heen Ii.inded (»ver iiiMr, hi.sU'r a.s a niiiMer of ••(MirlcHy, il Ini rhose, to oiler it, in eviden(^e, (III V ili'l not ohjecl, hnl, he <'(aild not, ptil it, in as a mailer u\' il^^lit, and iiiiLc !l part oC the iJiilisli evidence. If Mr. l'"oHlcr olleicd it in e,\ i ikiu'i, tla'V would treat, il, as American evidence wholly, Mr. !>AN,\ .said that, in Massachimelts, and he. thon;(lil, tlie. 1,'nited '^tih's i:t'i>i'i;dly, coniiHcl were not, permitted to c,i7»ss cvaiiiiiie a witm-.s-S ilrom a piiper. Ilmi, Mr. Ki'.l.l.oiJd said he recollecled the (arcnni.slance \'ery well, laiiil 111' liail iim!('r,sto(td Ircnn what, had then p.issi'il Itetween ,Mi'. l),ivie-( laiidMi', lM).s|er, a! I<> whet he, the papeislnndd he ad;iiitt«'(l or not, t,hat, jitWiiH 1,'iveii to Ml'. I"\).sl,(a-, a,s he Hnpi»o^ieil, in the view oriiaviii;^ it, pnt ii; In (iiil not, however, knov/ v>hat, ' del!i)erat(dy orossexainincd on this jiaper l^itli the view of forcing' the witrics.s to say tliat it wa.s correet, and that Mouhl not (li.s.sejit from the statement, the impiiries ''Are you fjoin^ [oberasheiioiiffli to disagree with the.se written statements ''"and '-W'!] venture to say Miat this Mr. Murray, of Tort Miilgrave, lias not prtUTopportuiiitiesthau you liaveof knowini^how the.se matter.s stand .*"' ?;sa ^Jl* S-'^VT^ 2970 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. wor<> to Ito voiu\ bolwocn Hu»liiM>s in IVfr. Diivics's (luoHtions, Tlii ptirpoiUMl to h(> a return ; tlu'y ini{j;lit('.iill it olllc-ial, iion-olliciiil, o ollicial, lui (lid not, care what, but it was |)r('soiit«'(l to indiuiotlm to afjrcc to IImi statounMits read to Iiiin ; and tliis hi-iw^ tlie cusc, did not. brin^ \l into tlu^ case, ;is pait of tiio (tro.s.s-oxaniinatio ho was (louiph'tcly miHtnken. Tho ruKSiDKNT. Tlio dociHion of llie ('onunission is that tli(> shall bo put in. Tho roturn in a|MT I' qiiiisi. WilllCSS if tills II, Wliy, I'llpIT Date. 1877. July 9 !l 10 Ul 10 II II Vi It 14 14 ir 17 17 17 17 18 18 I!) 'Jl SI ai •Jl Ul Ul ttl «:i at> 'J7 as an :io A US. a 7 7 7 7 7 e 8 n >i 14 Iti 17 17 21 31 N:iiiii<. Miu'lcod KlyiiiH Oliiiul Al'ico Ilvlll'l'iilll ('.'(V DllvlM .i..i.(.;i'Mko ('l'VHtltU> AU('(> M. I,i>\vi« Mil lion (irinioM KiiMlorif (;('ri'iii(t,.it'. . <)i'(ii);(< 11. l,miii)C . . ■ - l''U>i'tW()(-l Kalrciii (Mupjm.sod) . . . KiiHtoni IjiuTii ItarrrlH.I l)nt(>. i I Aiium Ciitlor liaiulili'i' Ilmvivst Homo Mnrtha C K. .\. Ilortoii til'ltll' l.i>« i« .loll II W('sliali< Kllon l)al.> Si'lli Stiicklilidso IM,. Mayo 11. R Soiiio Mafisio Tower naiu I,. Pyri- Ocean Kiiisr Kiiiiioo I*. Nowt'ombo Oasis ('l,,'i»MiK»> Ili'i. n M. ("nmliy I,i7,7.ii> K. Hopkins . .. Ktia (iott KatlliT M.,I. Kllioit Kdnw.id Uiirko A.C. Nowliull Kosroi- Wiiliiims Lillian M. Wariior ... Vidotto Win. A. Pciin l.izzie Tool' Lady Woodbnry JlnrtliH .v. Uri'wor ... (ico. 11. MeinoUaii.... Watorl'all (iii'V Kaiilo Mailawueka Alaid.... Cvri'iia .Vnii Alii. M.Oould Kiod. !*. Fryo KU'auor 11. Con .vol! . Total 8,36.">J 170 I ao.'> I a:i.'i aio !I0 I aio 1 :iiio aim I I.M) I :i:io I a.'!!) !MI (10 lau IHO a7o a:i."i no a:ir> la', 1110 l.'iO ini 101 aao 70 i:io Nono i:>o ItiO !I0 '.10 110 nri liO 170 :to l.M) aati 170 00 a:io 140 HO lao lari 100 150 aao 150 1.50 cs 10 None. 50 None. 5 85 1H77. Sept. lii Si:. a I Aiij:. a:i Auk. 10 4 a.-. 17 7 Hi 11" ai :io Anu. Si'pl. Sept. Auk. Srpt. Ann. Si'pl. Si.pl. S«pt. Si'pl. Ann. SKpt. Auj!. Auk. AiiK. Auk. S.'pt. Sept. Auk. Sopt. Au|{. Si>pt. Aug. 2:t Sopt, at Auk. •■il Seiit. a4 Sept. 14 S(>pt. ao I Auk. a4 I I Si>pt. 21 '; St'pi. ai , AiiK. M AiiK. ai I Sept. 10 ' S.']it. 2,-. ; Sept. ao s..pt. a4 ! Sopt. ao i Sept. ai Sopt. ao Sept. 4 Aiik. 24 Se|.f. 10 I Aug. 21 I Auk- 25 I Sept. 31 IloMic or rolltlod. KoMKed Homo. .. ...do ... ...do ..., iiollllod . Homo .. ....lo . .. ...do ... ...do ... ..do .. Uollltod. Ilomo . . ...do ... ...do ... Iti'liiiii'li! .. do liolitled ...lo Homo K.MIII.'d Iliimo ...do Hotltti'd H.nno Itoflttod Homo KoHtlodlwloo H.nno li.'nilod Homo ....lo Holllt.'d ...do Homi'. liotlttlMl do H.iiiie ...d.t Kolitled Homo ...do JJolltted ....lo aiO. Ita.'kr'ii siiMinIti |i An 28. ilonio ...do ...do ...do Uotitted .. ll.n.;e Uollttcd .. Homo Kofltteil .•. KotUl.Ml .. Ilom.i ...do do ...do ...do do Kolittod .. To rrpaii' Ibr.'sail. xn\ «>[■ back. ;:t>' This list is Ir.iin vessels boiiiK in for supplii>s and KoiiiK lioino, not includlDK wliat i.i iu Vm Itayno" ObIv one .xiiinnise.l trip in tlio lot. Captain would not tell how many bo baii. D. MUKRAV.JR. AWARD OF THK FIHIIKKY COMMFSHION, 2f)71 l',„vsftU,:i:«l«'f' CiulfiHlt-lriitH, Palo. 1^7. Jiiuo '.'1 i\ M.1V 'i'l lli'ii. T. Cnn'Ki'H . Siiiuiii . Olmr. I Oliver Cnuiiwi'll . I Kokiinii , Hiivlllii .... j Oriiilii I A. rii.vMi" ... 1 Krc'iiitKiiil .. ! ItldiiniiT — . Illdllilrl I ( It'll. Sc()lt .. I Juliiiii I A r('i)li» I (iccp. Watrr . Tntal. :i7." Kill 1(1(1 11(10 , 1(1(1 IHIO IKM) , mm , 1(1(1 , (1(10 1)00 , yoo mo IHIO HOO W)0 Kon DUO ICi, ooo 'J, 000 IH,(i00 Dull IHT7. A II )i. ViH Aiii;. :i(l HrpI,. 4 Sept. 7 Si'|)l. 7 Sn|il. 17 Srpl. 10 Sopt. Sopl. Si'pt. Sopl. Sept. Kipl,. 'r> Sopt. uri S.>p|.. -i-i .Si'pt. U.'i .Soi)t. I.I lliiiiiK (ir irdKcil. Id Mini liH, Hiinin Tiiiin, 4 iMoiilliH frniii liaiiliH. .. •1.1 IIMUMIlH rilllll Nlillll r,;|y. ...ilo 4.1 iiHiiiHiH IVmii Nui (li I'.ay. ...ilii I 4.(1 iiiiinUiH f'niiii Niii'lli iliiy. ... 4.(1 IiiciiilliH from Null li lliiy. l"*"7. I5y Mr. Davit'.s : \]. When you \v(>re oxiiiiiiiiiii}^ the book.s for tho purpose? of iiiiikiiifj ;i|)llio r<'tii»'ii of vos.sols lost, did it occur to you to compare t!ic pro- poitioi .ii (;.' - ils lost iu the bay witli that lost on (leor;,M','s J>i',idi ? — A. .\o, I did no-t. cxainiuo t'u'iii for that pur|»os('. I did not havj a re'uru iilluit ii')int:. (I, How was this return prepared ; you say, I see, in soiiu cases, tliat I tlie vessels were lost " at sea"? — A. Vou will observe, with refjard to the j[iie|);u'atioii of reports of that kind, that wo y^i-t from the owmu's tho [best iiifoimation they can {jive in this respect; they report every vessel Itbt is lost. 1 (!ould not swear to the exact accuracy of every report; jtlitsc reports are prepared in the same nuiuner as all ciistum-hous ' busi- [ntw is usually done. Q. Is this information obtained from the owiu'.rs at tho tinu? of the te of vessels? — A. Yes, as nearly as possible, as a yeiuiral thin;,'. 1 lean only tell in this rejjard for my own term of ollice. We iiave always Ita'iircd tliis iiiformn^^iou as soon as vessels are losi. Q. It 1 went to tho books of your ollice, would I find the statement laiiieil in this returii on their face, about tii«', time tiiese vessels were |liW, asyoii have it copied out here ?— A. Yon would find some of them pt the end of the year when wo collect tho informatio.i — when we arc; )!iK>-'il to make up the list of vessels; and we droi) fro u the list thos; liicli we cannot carry over into the next year. Q. Some I would find there? — A. Yes. (^ And some 1 would not find ? — A. For previous yeut'S you would |6ih1 tliera at the end of the year. Q. Would I Iind them all there ? — A. Yes, all we carry over ; wo have list of vessels for 1870; and at the end of the year, in January, we ate up a new list and transmit it to the department — in which we put 1 the vessels owned in the district and how they are disposed of, stat- k whether they have beeu sold out of tho district or wh.itever way pymay have been disposed of, or lost, or wherever they m.iy have "■ A'\ h'\ r^ ■ 3E? i-'y "•••*>( ^*A . 1,1 ^'W A4*«V.-.« 2972 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. m pi ■ pit been transferreil — we make up a report showing exactly where tliov li;iv,. gone. By Mr. Dana : Q. Annually? — A. Yes; annually. We make up special H'poit.s in this relation. r>y Mr. Davies : Q. Is this compilation taken solely from your books ?— A. Thut is un clerk's report, prepared in the usual manner in which such things are done. i}. Did your clerk compile this statement solely from the hooks of your ofHce ? — A. Yes. Q. Did he make any inquiries outside, in order to make it up ?_.v, I think he took it from the books of the ofliee. Q. Did you examine the books to see whether this was the case or not ? — A. No, I did not. Q. Is this in your handwriting? — A. Yes; he gave me the names of the vessels as they came along, and I put them in. Q. Is there a report made by the owner to your olTice at tlie tiiiio a vessel is lost ? — A. This has always been the case since I have held tln' otiice. Q. Since when has that been? — A. Since 18G0, 8 years ago. Q. And do you not know whether this was done previous to that !- A. For the time previous to that, wo took what was in the books. Q. Y"ou cannot tell what was the practice previously in this rcspt'i't .'- A. No. Q. You cannot lell how the clerk made up the statement for the tiiiii l)reviou8 to your term of otlico ? — A. I cannot tell ; of course my iikik derived his luforFaatioji from the books. Q. You cantiot tell whether this was taken solely from the books; you have not examined the books? — A. No; as I said before, thecloil; did this. My business is simply executive, and I do not pert'orm ckni- cal work myself. Q. Suppose that a vessel starts from the St. Lawrence and is not heard from ; how is it entered '. — A. The owner gives the best intbnnatioii that he can on the subject. Q. It is entered, lost at sea ? — A.. W's. Q. This statement embraces the year of the great gale ?— A. Ft iii eludes all the years back, until 1831. Q. How did you arrive at these valuatio is ?— A. "We got tUeiu from the ofliee. Q. At the time the vessels were lost ? — A. As near the time as possi- ble. Q. During the years in which these occurred, at any rate ?— A. Yes; a direct report is now reciuired of us regarding every vc *sel that is lost; j as soon as we know that a vessel is lost, we are obliged to make a report j embracing the facts. Q. Did that rule extend to 1831, when this list commences .'—A. No;] those values were taken simply from the yearly returns. Q. These are approximate values ' — A. They must be so, I thiuk, ii>j a general thing, except within tlie last 8 years. Q. How did you obtain the valuation of the Amazon, the tirstvisj sel ? — A. That was probably the owner's report at the time when liej made the report to the customhouse. Q. You have never examined the books to see? — A. No, not luyscit] personally. I made it up from my clerk's return. AWAKD OF THK FISHEUY COMMISSION. 2973 0. I see that some vessels in the lirst part of tlie list are charged as if made to the Bay of Clialeurs; are you aware that formerly the Bay of ^t. Lawrence was called the Bay of Clialeurs ? — A. Yes. (). When it speaks of the Bay of Chaleurs, I suppose that somewhere in Hip guU' is meant ?— A. Yes. 0. This list embraces Newfoundland too? — A. Yes. (). And the Banks ? — A. If on the Banks, I suppose, olfshore here. I tliinlc that all the i)laces are «lesignated as nearly correct as possible. Q. Are they all Hsliinj?, or are some trading vessels? — A. J think tbiit tiicy are about all fishing-vessels. Q, The lost vessels, Alexa-idria and (^iieen of Cliiipers, are charged foi''l8jS to Newfonudland ; are you aware whether any lishing-vessels then went to Newfoundland ? — A. In 1858? Q^ Yes.— A. O, yes; I think they did. I think that the Newfound- land frozen-herring business has been pursued for some time in Ameri- can vessels. Q. You do not accurately remember the first year when they went ;ln.ie?_A. No. The statement simply covers, as far as my memory is concerned, my own term of oflice. I was away previous to that time. Q. Is there an entry in your books giving, lor instance, the value of tills vessel, the Alexandria, lost in 18.~)8 at Newfoundland ? — A. I pre- sume so, from the report made by the clerk to me ; that paper was pre- pared in the same manner as was the case with these other i)apers. Q, Do you know what the total number is when added up — is it 10.") ? — A. I think it is about 105. Q. l)o\Vn to the end of 1875, 101 vessels were lost in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and Newfoundland fisheries, according to your return ? — A. And on the coast of Nova Scotia, I sup])ose. (^ This return embraces all the British provinces? — A. Yes. (J, Of course they may have been lost on their way up from (Jlouces- ter.'— A. Yes; I cannot say as to that. Q. 1 find in I'rocter's book concerning the fisheries of Gloucester,. >vhieh has been quoted here so frecpiently, a table giving the losses of lisbing-vessels from 1830 to 1875 inclusive, the total number being 333 ves- sels; nnd the difference between your return and this return would rqiivsent vessels lost in fisheries other than those mentioned in your Ktnrn .'—A. Of course. Q. One hundred and one during this period were lost in our fisheries, ami L'o2 in yours? — A. 1 wouUl say that most of those statistics are luade up from our office. il Have you made up a statement to show the percentage of loss ? My attention is called to a statement written at the foot of this compi- jlation.iu which you say, ''Said vessels were mostly engaged in the Bay i of St, Lawrence fisheries, "Then evidently some of these vessels were |iifireii;j;aoe(l in those hsheries?— A. Most certainly. i^'. They were traders probabiy ? — A. They were engaged in other jMii'iies prohiibly ; they might have been engaged in tlie Bank fishery [anlstill have been lost on the coast of Nova Scotia. Q. There is also added, "And in the immediate neighborhood of the Br/ish i"'oviiK'es";' — A. You are to understand that our vessels fish jofl The British provinces, and their losses are '-eported to us by their lowiiiis tor the ditterent points wherever the vessel may have been lost, p nearly as can be ascertained. I suppose that is the idea which they I'fi*!! to convey. Q- ^^hen you wrote " were mostly engaged," you had in your mind |tiK itlea that some of them were engaged in other pursuits than those TiSB^miS^HSM^^ '/'ii 2974 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. OSS which are specially mentioned ? — A. I meant that they were onjraftMl in lishinp; at other points besides the Jiay of 8t. Lawrence about tlic'^Biit. ish provinces; that is intended to cover the whole of the Nova Hcotii and IJewfonndland shores. They go in in case of storms. (J. llave you never had occasion to ascertiviu the percentage of of your Ashing- vessels ? — A. Myself ? Q. Yes. — A. No, 1 have never made that a subject for speuiQc statis. tics at cany time. Q. Do you know whetlier this loss exceeds 2A per cent. .'—A. For tho entire lleet ? Q. Yes. — A. I could not ascertain that without going into the figures, i^. And you never have ascertained it ? — A. No. (J. Have you ascertained, iu conversation with loading ineii, whetlier it has been more than 2A per cent. ? — A. Not in that form. Q. In what form have you done so ? — A. We always uiidprstaiid tliai we lose from 10 to 15 vessels and from 100 to 1.10 men every year in oiir general fisheries. (i. That does not show what the percentage is ?— A. Xot by any means. Q. What percentage is this loss; for instance, would L'A i)er coiit, in- surance cover all such losses ? — A. You mean whether LM per cent, o the whole fleet is lost ? I suppose that the loss would fully equal tlw;, Q. And you think it would not be more ? — A. I know that it would not be a great deal more than that. Q. And the ditlerence between that aiul what was charged for iiisiir ance would represent the profits made ? — A. I do not know what you mean. Q. I want to ascertain the value of the vessels that leave Gloucester to pursue the fishing-business, and whether 2J per cent, of that valnatinn would cover the loss that is incurred here ? — A. Allow mo one moment; I did not understand that question as applying to insurance. I thoiij;litj you asked whether the loss amounted to 2.i per cent, of the whole uiini ber of the vessels. Q. That is just the way iu which I put it. — A. But as far as iiism iin' is concerned, that is a nuitter of which I have no knowledge whatever, Q. I want to ascertain what percentage of the fishing-vessels nii leave Gloucester is lost ? — A. Well, we generally lose from 10 tu l^ every year, out of nearly 400 vessels. Q. In the annual report of the Bureau of Statistics of the CuitcJ States for 1870, on page 15, under the head of Trade with Canada, (iarj ing the year ending the 30th of June, 1870, 1 find a table ot valiifij which had been omitted iu the returns of the United States ciistoiii^ officers on the Canadian border, as appears from an official statiiiieal furnished by the Commissioner of Customs, amounting to 8l0,oiil,itli as against $15,590,224 for the preceding year: now, the fish expoita from the United States into Canada by railway do not appear in anl return, do they ? — A. That is a thing with which I have never hadanj thing to do. Q. I thought you might know something of this trade, and be ablej explain the discrepancy between the United States and Canadimir turns? — A. That is a matter entirely beyond ray jurisdiction; thatcom^ by the Grand Trunk Railway, 1 think. Q. You do not know .vhether they make any return of tish oxjorl or of trade that is thus caii'ied on ? — A. W^e have no experience ot r kind at our ofllce. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2975 15y I\rr. Trescot : 0, Whenever you give an order to a clerk to iiiiske sucli a report as the one n>;;'anliiig the loss of vessels, you expect this to be . Do Canadian I'lMbermou jjrocure bait or supplies in tli,. waters nt l'«'.V "io to a small m your Htato; and if so, to what extent and value I extent. 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian nslu'iincii in ijcj,,,, able to piocure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to rcjiack ami ,.|||" their lisli on the coasts of your State, without any other rt'stricitjon iii;,,, that contained in the Treaty of Washinjjfton ? I (iannot tell. 11. Will the admission of Canadian lisherinen to our in siioiv lishcii,., cause any detriment or hinderanco to the prolitable pursuit ol liicst' ii>i|. cries by our own tishermen ; and if so, in what manner, aiKJ to what extent annually? 1 thiidt not. lli. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are en},'a},aHl in tln' fisheries of your State, and what are their tonini(l upon the shares. 21, Wlicii you have fully answered <|uestion LM), please answer the same question as to vessels fitted out, eipiipped, furnished, and manned frmii tlu' Dominion of Canada, inehuliii},' I'rince Kdward Island, so far as voii luv iihlt' to do so. If yon state that there is any dill'erence be- twiVii tbo cost of the Canadian aiul tho cost of the American vessel in tlicse respects, explain what the ditlereiK^e is, and the reason for it. Tlicv iiavc tlie advantagt' <>f us in the cost of vessels, and in cost of salt, ^VIlilt the dilference amounts to I cannot tell; but it is eonsider- ahly in tlioir favor. i'l. Are ,V()U ac(|nainted, and for how lon}^, and in what capacity, with tlictislii'iics on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Diiinswick, (^)uebee, or Prince Kilward Island, or with either, and if either, witli whicli of these lislii'iies? I was master of a lisherman some twelve years, and fished oil the coasts of Nova Scotia, New IJranswick, and l*rinc(^ Mdwards Islaiul. I'.l. Wiiat kind of fish frecpient the waters of those coasts which are to lie tliniwii open to American fishermen under tiic provisions of the iiiat\ lit Wiisliiiijiton ? (!od, Mackerel Heri'inj;' and llallibut. I'l'inci- imlly Cod and Mackerel. L't. Please stale in detail the amount and the annual value (say from llCil to 1S7- inclusive) of the fisheries whicih are so to he thrown open to |.\iiiiiie;ni fislH'raien ; also the amount and the annual value of the Ifatcli in tile adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant Itnuii tlie shore ; please state these facts in detail. I cuinot answer liiMlcliiiitely. .'"i, Do Anu'iican fishermen procure bait in the waters within three oiks (if the coast of the Dominion of Canada ' If so, to what extent, .aiul wliiit is the value ? Hut very little if any. I y^ Do not the American fishermen purchase sui)plies in tho. ports of llic Diiiiiinion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, ™l various articles for the use of the men en*"ajied In the fisheries :' II so, ill what jiorts, and to what extent? And, if that is tlu^ cjase, is Itiiut an advantage to the ports of the Donunion to have the fishing- psscls of the Tinted States in their neighborhood during the fishing Kiijiiii! Ivxplaiii why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the moiiey- Ijiliii' of that advantage. They do, at the ports of Charlottetown, lalilax, tile straits of Canso. The trade is quite extensive, but I can- lot state its extent. :.''. Have yi>ii any knowledge of how many United States fishing Ms yciuiy engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic- coasts of the "'sli ^'ortli American J'rovinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both "lit and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels ■ J, Icri, what is the annual value of all the fish so cauglit, and what is Jt'l"<'l""lion,or probable proportion, in your Judgment, of the amount sit'' • ■' ' ' ' •..-.. u •.. . . , .. ., "'• o.iimi III,, u.iivv iiii.v> iiiiiii. . Ai i--,^, i-fuin .. ij.^ w till. 11^, . V »io, I sooiijjaovd, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the numbe iiHieiiiployed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are takei ' hat is the annual value of all the fish so cauglit, and what i "M lion, or probable proportion, in your Judgment, of the ainouui, eiitcli taken within three niiles of the liritish coast, and of the taken outside of the three-mile limit ? I cannot tell. hat percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to tsof a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles ■n ,.1 i^.*. ■ %.M^:':J- ..,.j»''. ' ■•i^ f"' '!**«,.: ^'**'^ '':mik 'f'V. ^^a IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) 1.0 I.I 1.25 2.2 1.8 U 11 1.6 V] <^ ^ /} °% A. >> y /A Hiotographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 873-4503 'y^ f/j t 2980 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. of the coast ; whence is stfub protit derived ; and in what does itconsJHt' It is impossible for me to tell. Sometimes the advantage inifjlit be con' siderable: iu other cases it would be nothing. liU. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Waslijnuton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure tisli, or to repaei; them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; it .so. what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annualh in the aggregate ! 1 do not know how valuable the privileges grantd by the Treaty of Washington may prove. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the lisliui}: clauses are concerned, more, or (piite as, beneficial to the people of tlie Hritisli Nintli American Provinces as to the people of the United States ? I think it i is more beneficial to the people of the Provinces. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of tisli uf alll descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States f Idol not know. 32. For all No. laud No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat I herring, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States udbrdtliei only market? I think it is the principal market. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to tlic Unitedi States on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to be iiiadJ free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please statel them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive f I doDotT FliEEMAN lIOIJGDOy. Sworn to and subscribed before me tliis tenth day of June, 187'.. Obrin McFadden, Collector of CusUmn. No. 2. JCONFIDENTIAL.] QUESTIONS J'OUNDED STATES. RESPECTING THE TO ON FISHERIES TO 15E I' BEHALF OF TUE LMTEll 1. What is your name and age, and in what town aaul State dovii reside ? Thomas Berry, age sixty-three, I live at Bootlibay Me. 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming aequaintcd m the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and tlie value i the catch of the different kinds of fish ? I have been a tisbiii^' ontH Banks and on ^he coasts of the British Provinces for filty one yiais. 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neigbborlioo(l»l have also had the o|)portunity of obtaining similar infonuationf Iij please give some such nam e. Charles Reed. ■1. A copy of the Treal,y between Great Britain and the United Staij known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will pu ' amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so! have examined the treaty. 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, esiHtiai those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen iiiuliM provisions of the Treaty of Washington 1! Principally Poi;;ie.s and m erel, would be sought for by the fishermen of the Provineos. ^\t also cod haddock liake, Uallibut, and many other kinds. 6. Can you give a tatement of the kinds and (piantitits of lisli ^ annually off the coast of your State from the years \f>oi to IS.:'. m. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2981 ifs it consist 1 iiif^lit be VM- Wasiiiii'^toii or to vi'itac'k L'; it' so, wliati itli aniuialh, ik'gfs granted \\\\t clauses ate '. liritisli ^iii'tli I iis J 1 tliuik it ! 8 of lisli of all I States! Ho| part of the fat I it ates afford tlwl ia to tlie Uiiitedj are to be niadel Dii, please staie| isive I do Dou [ llOl)Gl)0>'. June, IS';''. tor of CnsUim. TO 151-: I'liO iuul State doyoj Dtlibay Me ai'iiuaiuted wH iu«l the value A tishiiiji «"" liftvone yi'rti* tcigbborbooiP oriuatioii t It! \icUiiitHlSt«'j iH\. Will y«i" tbave. ilo»e **•' State, csi'f « Iberuie" wff ,-ine.cs. ^^f Ki**' . 1 1,1 titirsotli>l'';' 8ive? If you can do this, please do so ; and if not, please state where tbat information can be procured. I cannot tell. TKo amount is very mat The quantity taken on our coast by American Fishermen greatly exceeds the quantity taken on the coasts of the Provinces. ;, If you aro able to do so, will yon state the amount and value of the Americau tistiiMies which are to be thrown open to Canadian iishermeu iiiuier the provisions of the Treaty of \Vashin}j[ton '! Please state thera in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each tiiu'. 1 am not able. 8. What (inantity and value of each kind of fish are aniiuilUy taken b\ Canadian tishernien, am! what by American fishermen, in the waters oil the coasts which are to Ls thrown open to competition by the Treaty ot Washington ? The people of the Provinces take as many codfish I tliiiik as the jjoople of the States. Of Mackerel we take far the larger quantity, |>rohably three times as many. They take the greater part oftliolierrin};. 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of your State? and, if so, to v iuit extent and value? Tliey get a great [part of their bait from this State. They catch some and buy some. W' hat is the probable annual value to Canadian lishermen in being labk'to prociue bait, to land and dry their nets, and to rei>a«;k and cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than that coniained in the Treaty of Washington ? It is a great privilege. Thel'orgie bait which they procure from this State is far better tan lanyotiier for taking Mackerel. il, Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-shore fisheries Icaiise any (ietrinient or hindrance to the profitable |)ursuit of these tish- ktrii'S by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to what Imeiit annnally ? I think it would injure our fishermen very little. IWtlu-r would our fishing on Canadian coasts injure theirs. 1. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the jyitnies of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the liniiilierof men employed upon them ? I cannot tell, [t is not large. I). Of the tisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic Iwasts of the iiritlsh North American Provinces, what proi)ortion con- ptsoftliedoep sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in-shore fisheries .' ^eitaiidy three fourths are deep sea fisheries. U. For what description of fish do American lisheriiien pursue the In :«hore tisheries ? Mackerel and Herring. 1"». If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or khidly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken |iihiii the in-shore limits, and what projwrtion is taken outside of the Jslmre limits ? The offshore fishery has been the most valuable for lie lasf thirty years. Is not much the larger cpiantity of mackerel caught by American |5lieniieii otf the (!oasts of P>ritisli Amcricn taken outside the in shore il^: 1111(1 in the summer season especially, aie not mackerel generally "don the blinks, in the Culfof Saint liawrcnce,aiid not within shore .' Ml till' larmier cpiantity is taken outside the in shore limits. Mackerel k'eiKM'ally found on the banks. When wo can catch Mackcuvl off (lore they are of superior quality to those caught inshore. Ui. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen • lii'h ill Colonial in shore waters? No, sir, they are not: it is an ad- ^iitiigt'totlieni, by tolling the fish in. M"'. .\renot more fish caught by Colonial tishernien, when fishing in- N, alon-jside a fleet of American Fishing- vessels, from which largo M 2982 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMIS.SION. quantities of Imit are thrown out,* than when flHhing n\onv> .' They an' The small llshermen of the Provinces are in the habit of lollowinj; tlie American Heet. 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and \vliore is ir priiuiiMHv taken ? How much of it is taken within three miles of tlic shore, anil what is the annual value to the United Sta^^'S, or to the iSiitish I'rov. inces, as the caso m.ay be, to take such bait within tlirco miles ot tiie shore? Porgle llait. Taken on the coasts of this State. The ^Teiitcr part is taken within three miles of shore. The iriiited Statts lisht'iiihii take none on the coasts of the Province. The tishermen of the I'loviiKes will derive great benefit from the privilege of taking IJait on our coasts, as they hfive none on their own. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on ironi ymir State or district, the cost of fitting out, etiuipping, funiishin;;, inul man. ning a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the avera;,'t' h'ligtii oi the cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements wliich ;{iito i make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo andof returniii'l to the homo port. It will cost to tit a vessel ui one hundred ioiin tmilil $2,000 to 83,000 for a codtishing cruise. For a mackerel cruise fioiiil $1,200 to $1,500. 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the] same questions as to vessels fitted out, e<|uipped, furuisheil, ami iniiim from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Hdward Island, so lariij I you are able to do so. If you state that there is any dillereiicf latwciaj the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the Anjerican vessel in tlus^j respects, explain what the difference is and the reason lor it. It woiiljj cost less. Salt, cordage, lines, and nearly all their iisliing tackle msisj less. And they can build vessels for much less than we can, 22. Areyouactjuainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, witlij the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Ijrunswick, (^Miehecurl Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which ot'tliesef fisheries? I am ac(iuainted with the cod and Mackerel lishery. 1 liavel been skipper of a fisherman for tlie last thirty years. 23. What kind of fish IVequent the waters of those coasts wliieliarej to be thrown open to American fishermen under tiie provisions of tlie| Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel cliielly. 2-4. Please state in detail the iiniount and the aiuiiial value (say from 18o4 to 1872, inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown oi^a to American fishermen ; also the amount and tlie annual value (it m catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles disiauq from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. 1 do not know. 2r». Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within ilirei miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what exttnij and what is the value ? They do not. • 26. Do not the Anu'rican fishermen purchase sui)plies in thepoit.st the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisioul and various articles for the use of the men engaged in tiie lisheries! 80, in what ports, and to what extent ? Anil, if that is the caise. i« not an advantage to the i)orts ol the Dominion to have the ti>liiiia vessels of the Tnited States in their neighborhood durin;; the tisliiii| season ? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the uioneyialii of that advantage. They do in the ports of Canso, Charlottetowii. I'oj Hoo"». The object of these in(|uiries is to ascertain whether the rights iu >iwt ol'tlsiiiiig, aiKJ fishermen, and lish, which were grassted to Croat ntaiii i)y the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a Just ecpiivalent he ri^lits in tho.se respects which were granted by .said treaty to helnited States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject tell you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, plea.se ftaieitas fully as if you had been specially incjuired of in respect of it. Wieve that the priveleges of bringing their lish to our markets free of iDtyeoiisidt'iing that they can catch them cheaper than we can will stim- We their lishiiig industries much more than the preveloge of fishing 'Wwill stimulate our.s. I also think that the increased trade which aecriie to the Provincial towns on the coast will of itself compensate i ■■rr m .■HI* 2984 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. for all the detriment that can result to their fishermen from our iiisbor. fishing. TDOMAH inmi\. Sworn to and subscribed before me this tenth day of .luno 1,s;;j OKKIX McFADDKN, ' Collector of CnskouH. No. 3. [CONFIDENTIAL.] QUESTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO I5K PKOPOLM. ED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES, 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do von reside? (Wiliiaoi Eaton) (58) Castine, Maine 2. What opportunities have 3'ou had for becoming acquiiintod witljj the American and Canadian Atlantic seatisheries, and tlit- value ot the] catch of the different kinds of fish i Have been employed in the Auitr lean and Canadian, Cod and ^lackerel fisheries, sixteen years 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your mijililwrlinodj ■who have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar inloniiiitioii!J If so, please give some such nanie. Capt. Joseph Stearns, Castinel Maine, also Capt James Torrey Deer Isle Maine. 4. A copy of the treaty between Great Britain and the Unitod .Stutcsj knov/n as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex [ amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so,' I| have examined the above named articles o. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, espaiallri those which are to bo thrown open to the Canadian tishermeii uiitlt'r tbel provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod, Halibut, Hake, IlaiMixkl Menhaden Pollock and Herring 0. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken annually off the coast of your State from the years lS.'»i to 1S7J, incla-j sive i If you can do this please do so ; and if not, please state niierej that infornmtion can be procured. 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value ot'tlid American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian lislienW under the provisions of the treaty of Washington i Please state tluiiiiii detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken by Canadian rtishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the ua'' off" the coasts w'.iich are to be thrown open to competition by the Treatjj of Washington .' 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters your State? and if so, to what extent and value ? They procure claij bait ami Menhaden, mostly by [)urchase. 10. What is the probable annual value t(» Canadian fislierineii in ing able to procure bait,'to land and dry their nets, aJid to repack .m cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restiiitiiJl than that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? 11. Will the adnnssion of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fisliona cause any detriment or hinderanee to the profitable pursuit ot tlie^ fisheries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to vl extent annually 1 12. What number of Canadian ves.sels and boats are engaged in i AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2985 State do vou ' fisheries of your State, and what are their tonuage and value, and the niiiiiber of men employed upon them ? 13. Of tlie tisiieries pursued by American flHhermen off the Atlantic coasts of tlie British North American Provinces, what proportion con- sists of tlie (leepsea fisheries, and what proportion of the in-shore fish- eries! Tlie ill slioreand deep-sea fisheries, in my opinion are of about equal value 14. I'or wliat description of fish do American fishermen pursue the in- iliori' llslieries ? Mostly Mackerel & Herring, but considerable quan- tities of Cotl Halibut Hake & Haddock are caught in shore 15. If yon state that the inshore fisheries are pursued wholly or chielly for miicivercl, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within tlio iiisliore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the in-shore limits .' One third in, and two thirds off shore. 1(1. Is not inuoh the hirger quantity of mackerel caught by American fishermen off tlie coasts of British America taken outside the in .shore limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally found on the banks, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and not within shore ? By far the larger quantities are takeaoutsidc the inshore limits li. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen totisb in Colonial inshore waters ? They are benefitted by the inshore fishing' by reason of the fish being " tolled" inshore by the large quan- tity of bait thrown by the fishermen is, Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- >hore, alongside a fleet of American fishing vessels, from which large (]iwiitities of bait ak 3 thrown out, than when fishing alone ? There is certainly more fish caught HI. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principally [taken? How much of it Is taken within tliree miles of the shore, and [rtat is the annual value to the United State::;, or to the British i'rov- inoes, as tiie ca.se may be, to take such bait within three miles ot the shore? Clam bait and Menhaden is the pri->cipal bait, taken mostly on I the coast of Maine and Massachusetts 211. Please state as to each class of fisheries <'arrie . . vte"'.^-'*-; i 2986 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. flBberiesT I am, or bavo been for a period of 15 years in capacity m Master of vcsHels en^^aged in tlic cod and maci^orel (Uliirii's 23. Wbat kind of tlsli frequent tiie waters of tbose coast s wliioh aro to be tlirown open to American llsliermen under tlio provisions ot tlio Treaty of Wasbington ! principly cod, and mackerel. 24. IMeaae state in detail tlie amount and tlie annual valiio (say Irom 185-4 to 1872 inclusive) of tbe fisberies wbicb are so to be thrown m-n to American tlsbermen; also tbe amount and tbe annual value nt tliu catcb in tbe adjacent waters wbicb are more tban three miles liistaiit from tbe sbore; please state tbese facts in detail. 25. Do American tisbermen procure bait in tbe waters within tiiive uiiles of tbe coast of tbe Dominion of Canada f If so, to wliat cxtciir, and wbat is tbe value ? Not to a great extent. Some cain-Jin, hiirin - and alewives are taken. 20. Do not tbe American lisbermen purcbase supplies in tlif jtcrtsof tbe Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, baiivls, provisions. and various articles for tbe use of tbe nu'ii engagiMl in tlu; lislu'riis ! If so, in wbat ports, and to wbat extent? And, if that is tlii! case, is it not an advantage to tbe ports of tbe Dominion to have tlio tlsliin^r. vessels of tbe United States in tbeir neigbborbood diiriii;,' the lisjiiii;, season? Explain wby it is so, and estimate, if you can, the iiiom v" | value of tbat advantage. Tbey do obtain tbe articles nuiutiniied uImim', iu Port Hood Cape Canso, Cbarlotto Town, Tort Mulgravf Molpeak.^i, 27. Have you any knowledge of bow many United States lisliin;; vessels yearly engage in tl*^ fisberies oil' tbe Atlantic coasts ot the I Britisb Nortb American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundlaml,) huth witbout and witbin tbe tbree-mile limit ? If so, state bow many vessel:) are so engaged, wbat is tbe value of tbeir tonnage, what is the nuinUr of men employed annually on sucb vessels, wbat sorts of tish are taken I there, wbat is tbe annual value of all tbe tisb so caught, and what is tliel proportion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of] sucb catcb taken witbin tbree miles of tbe Britisb coast, and ol tbef amount taken outside of tbe tbree-mile limit ? 28. Wbat percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgnuMit, adikdtol tbe profits of a voyage by tbe privilege to fish witbin three marine niilesj of tbe coast; wbence is sucb profit derived ; and in wbat does it consist!] In my experience tbe advantage bas been very little. 29. J)o tbe American fisbermen gain under tbe Treaty of Wasliiii^toa any valuable rigbts of landing to dry nets and cure fisli, or to repack tbem, or to transship cargoes, wbicb were not theirs before ; if so. whatj are tbose rigbts, and wbat do you estimate tbem to be worth anniiallyJ iu tbe aggregate ? Drying and curing don't amount to imicli. iM priviledge of transshipping cargoes is of some advantage. 30. Is not tbe Treaty of Washington, so far as tbe (ishinf,'diinsesan concerned, more, or fh, 1873 IVrsonaily appeared the above named William I<]aton, and on oath siivsthat the foregoing statement by him signed is true to the best of liis knowlt'd},^' ami belief. Betoro me WM. II. SAKCJKNT, Jus. Pea. No. 4. [CONFIDENTIAL.! QCKSTIONS I'OL'NDUD STATES. RESPECTING TO TIIH FISIIEllIES - ON BEHALF OF TO IJE IMIO- TUE UNITED What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you \m\el L. (i. Crane ; Gouhlsborough Maine. :', What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with Itbc American and Canjidinn Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the pill of the (litfereut kinds of lish ? Have owned fishermen, and have jtieeii lisbing'. I (.'an you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood |»lio have also had the opportunity' of obtaining similar information? |ll so, please give some such name. Hadlock & Stanley. i A copy of the treaty between Great Britain and the United States, |liuo\vii as tlie Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- niiie articles IS to 22, inclusive, and state that you have done so J I pave examined them closely. What kinds of tish frecpient the waters of your State, especially [t!i'>(' which arc to be thrown open to the Canadian tishermen uiuler the Itovisions of the Treaty of Washington? Codlish, Mackerel, Herring psjies, Halibut 'i. Can yoii {jfivci a statefuent of the kinds and quantities of tish taken lly oil' tiie coast of your State from the years IH'yi to 1872, inclu- [i^'f If you Clin do this please do so ; and, if not, please state where kinformatioii can be procured i Could not answer correctly. If yon are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of tho pMicaii tlslu'iies which are to bo thrown open to Canadian lishermen wrthe provisions of the Treaty of Washington l! Flease state them in N. showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. cannot answer this correctly. 1 ''^ What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken ROanadian tishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters :M m 2988 AWARD OP THK FISHERY COMMIHSION. off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition l»y tin- Treaty of VVaHhiii^ton ? I think that both nations are on e(|iial t()otiii;;s. 9. Do Canadian tishernien procnre bait or supplies In tin- waters ni your Stat(^ ? and if so, to what extent and valu«' f They do iironn,. their inaclieroi bait. Hait for a vessrl of I'J liands will cost tlirw hm, drcd dollars 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian llshtTiiuMi in Ih.jii; able to procure bait, to land ami dry their nets, and to rcpiick ami cm* their Hsh on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction tliati that contained in the Treaty of Washington ;' 11. Will the admission of ('anadian fishermen toour in siiorclislicrio cause any detriment or hinderaiice to the prolitabic |inrsiiit of tlicst'ti Eitwiud Island, m tav gsvoiiiiro libit* to «lo so. If you statr tliat tlion- is any dilVi-nMice Ihj- tnt-eii tlu'co.st ot tlic (ri(;an N'ossol in ttits<' rcsptM-ts, explain what tlic ditleivnce is, and tlio reason lor it. Thu i^^^t ol'tliu Vessel is not more than one halt' as nMu;h,and the outtltsare nut iiiiit'li more than halt' as much as our Vessels. i!'.'. Aiv you a<;i|uainted, and I'or how lon^, and in what capacity, with tilt' tisli('ii«'s on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Uiunswick, (Quebec, <»r I'niin' Edward Island, or with eithfr, and if either, with wliieh of thesu Dslicrit'sf I own llshermen and fitted out llshernien, and have been Duliiii;' iii.v»<('lt '<»'-** .vt^iii'M <"<>ru or less. The principal tishiiiK in the |iruviiice.s is Cod tlsh «& Mackerel, and the greatest portion taken on the Banks. :•;}. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are III Ik> thrown open to American tlshcrmen under the provisions of the Titat.v ot Washington ? Cod iS: Mackerel. :'4. I'IciiHe state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from IS-Uto 1872 inclusive) of the flsheries which are to be thrown oi>on to American tlshermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the catch III the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant from the sliore; please state these facts in detail. ..'). Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three miles ol the coast of the Dominion of Canada! If so, to what extent, m\ what is the value ? Tiiey do not. JO. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of ilie Douiiniou of Ci^uada, including l)ait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, aiitl various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries? If 80, in what ports, and to what extent If And, if that is the ca.se, is it iiotan advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- ves- dsoftlie United States in their neighborhood during the fishing sea- ^11 ! Explain why it is .so, and estimate, if you can, the money- value of that advantage. We sometimes procure barrels ami l)ait and fresh i |irovisions in Canso and many ports on Prince Edwards Island and at liie Chaliuu\s. . Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing- [vessels yearly engage in the fislieries ofl" the Atlantic coasts of the lirit- isliN'ortii American Provinces, (excluding Newf'oundlan«l,) both without and within the three-mile limit? Jf so, state how many ve.ssels are .so eiijiaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the numl»er of men Hiiploycd annually on such ve.ssels, what sorts of fisli are taken there, Ubatis theaninnd value of all thu tisli .so caught, and what is the pro- [Hirtioii, or prol)able proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of Uucli catch taken within tliree miles of the British coast, and of the iiiiouiit taken outside of the three-mile limit? Five hundred Vessels, [avtrage Value $7,000 each : seven eighths without the three-mile limit. .'». What |)ercentage of value, if any, is, in your Judgment, added to I'liqnctitsof a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles I"! the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it con- m'. None -1'. Do tlie American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington I'liyvahiable ri{,'hts of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack I'wiii. or to trans.ship cargoe.s, which were not theirs before ; if .so, what jitfi' those ii}«iit8, and what do you estimate them to be wor»,h annually, |iii lhni}(Kie-iite ? None at al'l *• Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fisliing clauses are Iffiicenied. more, or cpiite as, beneficial to the people of the British i... \ ' ^.. u ♦ .»; ^ .If, 2990 AWARD OF TIIF FISHERY COMMISSION. North Amoricnii Provinces as to the people of the Unitod .States! [ think it \h more .31. What iH the amount and value of colonial M of Di^li ot a|| dcNcriptioiiH which are annually Hhi|tped to the Tnited 8tiit*>Nf .'{li. Fur all No. I and No. 2 macrkerel, for the larger |i;iit of tliiMii horrinjt, and for all No. 1 Halmon, douH not the I'nitcd States ailuid t|„. only nuirkot. Yen 33. If you know what amount of duties \h annually paitj to iIm United States on IIhIi and llshoil imported from Canada, whicli aiv ni be made free under the provisiouH of the Treaty of Wa8hiii;,'toii. \tW.\^,. state them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1.''72, in(;liisiv(>. .14. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in VMi\\i\ on fish and llshoil imported from the United States, whicli aio to li« made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state tiitin annually, and by classes, from IHTA to 1872, inclusive. 3.'>. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rii;lits in respect of lis'hinK,.and (ishermen, and tish, wliich were granted tutirt-at Itritain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a Just e(|iii\aleiii for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty lo | the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this siilijiTt which you have not already stated in reply to previous (iiiestions, |i1('ii<.i>{ state it as fully as if you had been spe<;ially inquired of in respect ot it, I think it is of a great deal more value to the Province tlian it is to tliej American tishernien, and eventually will be a great injury to the iiitii. est of the American lishermen. L G. C1{ANE, Keeper Sryniii l.ifiht Maiiu Sworn to before nic this 2d day of July, 187."5 E. S J NEALLKV, Colkctor. No. 5. [(!ONFIDENTlAL.] THE FISIIEKIES TO I'.i: IM:(»I - ON BEHALF OF TlIK UNITKli QUESTIONS RESPECTING POUNDED TO STATES. 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do vm reside ? IJenry E. Willard — 3."» years old — Reside in Cape lllizalti tli. 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming ac(|iiaiiite(i "itli the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value otilu catch of the difterent kinds of fish f 1 have been a fisherman for t\vi'iity| four years — master of a fishing vessel 9 years. 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neigh boriiooilj who have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information.' If so, please give some such name. Geo W. Willard, Caleb Willard, Jolii^ F. Lovitt Morris Cobb, Isaac Cobb, & others 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will .voiusl amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so .' I| have examined articles 18 & 22 of the " treaty of Washington" 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, espwin those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen uiidt'i provisions of the Treaty of Washington! Cod & Haddock, Macknli Pollock Herring, Pohagen, Halibut «S:c. AWARD OP TUB FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 2!I91 (i, Cm) you ({ivo u Htatomeiit of tho kintlH aiul qiiantiticH of flsh takun aiiiiiially off tlio coast of your State from tlio yoars 1854 to 1872 iiiclu- jivel If you niii do this, ploaso do so; atMl if not, |>1»'Hso state wlioro that iDtnriiiation ciiii bo ]>i'ociii'ed. Cannot state. ;. If you arc ablu to do so, will yon state tho amount and vahie of tho Aimriraii tislieries wliich are to he thrown open to Caiuulian fishermen aiidir tilt' provisions of tho Treaty of Washington f IMeasf state them in ilftail, showing the dilVerent kinds of tlsh, and the value of each kiiiil, All the kinds named in answer to (picstion 5, which may be niaiK'ot grcitt value to tho Canadian fishermen, as tliey are now to Aint'ri(!au flsliermen. i Wbiit (piantity and value of each kind of tlsh are annually tak«m bvCunadian tishermen, and what by American lishermen in the waters offilip coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by tho Treaty of ^Vasliiiifiton f 1 cannot say. !), Do Canadian lishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of ruurStnto * and, if so, to what extent and value? TUey do obtain con- sidfrable bait in the waters of this State. Ill, What is the ])robabIe annual value to Canadian lishermen in IWinuabU' to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack NDil cure their lish on the coasts of your State, without any other re- mit tioii than that contained in tho Treaty of NVashin^jfton ? Will do- UikI oil what extent tho Canadian lishermen nniy pursue the tishing iiisiiicss in our waters. !1. W ill the admission of Canadian tishormon to our inshore lisheries icaiisc any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these iii|i|ilyiiig American markets. 1:'. What mitiiberof Canadian vessels and boats are enjfaged in the |yit'iii>sol your State, ami what are their tonna^'e and value, and tho iniiihir of iiu'ii employed upon them ? Cannot tell. li. Ot the lislieries pursued by American tishermen otV the Atlantic Icoastsdl'tlu' British North American I'rovinces, what proportion con- liistsdt' tlic deep sea fisheries, and what proportion of tho in-shore lish- Ittics,' Not one fourth are caught inshore. CliieHy caught outside U. For what description of tish do American tishormon pursue the ii>liiiri' lisiiories? Mackrel — sometimes Herrings IJ. If you state that the inshore Hshories are pursued wholly or ^M\ lor mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken «itbiii the ill-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the Miore limits? Not one-fourth of the mackerel caught are taken iu- liort. Chielly taken out side. Iti. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American jblifniien off the coasts of British America taken outside the inshore [■Bits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally million the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within shore ? Iifv are taken chiefly outside the in-shore limits — on the banks and in l^f tiiiif of Saint Lawrence. Are Colonial flshormen injured by permitting American ttshorraou »Mi in colonial inshore waters ? I should think no material injury. '^ Are not more fish caught by Colonial flshermen, when Ashing in- Ne, aloiij;side a fleet of American tishing-vessels, from which large Fitities of bait are thrown out, thau when fishing alone ? Yes for py rel,\ chiefly on the bait thrown over by American fishermen. ''• What Is the best bait for the mackerel, and whore is it principally 2992 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. takeu ? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British Provinces, as the case maj' be, to take such bait within three miles ot the shore ? Porgies are used chiefly for Mackrel Bait «Jt Porgies are taken on the Coast of Maine almost exclusi^ely within three luiles of the Shore. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and manninf a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average leii<,'th of the cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements wliich go to make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and uf retiirniuff to the home port. P'or a season — of aay three trips — Mackrel Pishing.! (two months to a trip.) Will cost $2,500, for Bait, Salt & Provisions; & Eleven men at $40 per month — G mos — $2,040 in addition— Seins lines, Hooks &c., $1,500. — Making $0,640 for 45 ton vessel costing $9,(k1o — or $2,210 per trip, without reconing cost of Vessel. 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the same questions as' to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and uauued from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any dift'ereuce be- tween the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel io these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. Canadian Vessels are built of Soft woods & cheaply fitted & cannot I cost I think, much more than half as much as American fishermen— do j not provision as expensively as American fishing Vessels. 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, with j the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, (Quebec, or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of the^se fisheries? Am acquainted with Nova Scotia & Prince Edwards Island j fisheries — have fished there for four seasons. 23. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which arej to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of the j Treaty of Washington ? Mackrel Herring, Pollock, Cod & Hake. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from | 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries wliich are so to be thrown opeul to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the] catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant! from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. Cannot say. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within thieel miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what cxteiiij and what is the value? Occasionally Herring for Codfishing— itcihapsj valued at 10$ a season for each vessel. 26. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of] the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisioDsJ and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries '. Iff 80, in what ports and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it iioB an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing vessels of the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing seasonl Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value of thai advantage. American fishermen do procure the above supplies, at Giii Canso, Charlottetown P. E. I. Picton N, S. Port-Hood— cSo some othej l)orts, & this trade must be of considerable value to those Dominion ports. 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishiii{jvi|S sels yearly Tnigaged in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the Biifl ish NorthAmerican Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) bothwithoii] AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2993 f t\ie shore, the British iree tnilesot Porgies are iree miles of in your State inii maiming Lenj^tth of the which go to [ of returniug Lrol Fishiug- t Provisions: tlition— Seiiiii, costing $9,00() le answer tlie .1, and mauued IsUud, so far r diftereuce be- srican vessel in reason tor it. atted & cannot I fishermeu-do I t capacity, wiili nek, Quebec, or li which of tbese 1 Ed wards Island joasts which are I (Vovisionsof tliej |d & Hake, value (say from be thrown opi'ii •a value of the! >e miles distant! [not s'.iy. 1 urs within tlireel Ito what extent,! ishiug-l>ei'bap*| ■sill the ports ofl Irrels, provisionsJ lie fisheries- ij |be case, is it m le fishing vesseJ V fishing seiwfl lev-value of m 1 supplies, at b«J '_^Nc some othel those DoniiuwiJ l-vsts of tlie Bui ld,)bothvvitlio>i| and within the tbree-raile lioiit ? If so, state how many vessels are so engaced, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the nnmber of men employed annually on .such vessels, what sorts of tish are taken there, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- portion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of such [ittcli taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken ont.side of the three-mile limit' Should think that 175 to 200 Vessels ranging at45 to 50 tons, averaging eleven men each,goannualley lotbe British Provinces for Mackrel & will average, I should think, 180 libls Mackrel each for the seasons catch — of which, more than i| are taken out side of the " three-mile-limit." 2S. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it consist ? Isbonld think it more profitable for a vessel not to go within three miles I i tlie shore — more tish would be taken, but the restriction is an annoy- ance. I'd. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washing- ou any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, what [are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, I in tlie aggregate ? I do not think the gain of any great advantage to 1 American Fishermen. Ml Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are leoncenieil, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North I American Provinces as to the people of the United States ? I know [(luring the Reciprocity treaty, that several persons — citizens in the [Gilt 0 Can-so (Cliarlottetown Port Hood) & other places got wealthy tof American fishing trade. & since its repeal those persons have Ibst all that trade — which I have no doubt this treaty will restore in a Inieasnre. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all [teiptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? Cannot For all Xo. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat Ikring. and for all No. 1 sulmon, does not the United States afford the loiilv market, the only foreign market for Canadians If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United Ktiteson tish and flshoil imported from Canada, which are to be made Iftee under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state pmannnally, and by classes, from 1851 to 1872, inclusive. H E WILLARD solemnly and truly swear that the foregoing statements by me sub- Itribedare true according to my best knowledge and belief. So help mo N. H E WILLARD Sfforu before me this sixteenth day of June A. D. 1873. 3L N. RICH (SEAL.) Dq). Collector of Ctistoms. 188 F «*■■»»•'<,■, fl"-!. -^:£^-- 2994 AWARD OF THE FISHEBT COMMISSION. No. 6. [CONFIDENTIAL.] QUESTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO BE PliOPOryD ED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you re- side 1 Name Albert T Trufant Age, 39 years State of Maiue Towa of Harpswell Q. What opportunities have you had for becoming ac(|uainte(l with the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the catch of the different kinds of fish? I have been in the Business of By- ing & Cureing Fish for the last 13 years and have been iu Gulf of Si Lawrence a Fishing 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neigliborliood whoi have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar informatiou ? If so, please give some such name. 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United Statei known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. >Vill you e» amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so ? 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especial! those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under tlii provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? 6. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish talc annually off the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872 iml sive? If you can do this please do so ; and if not, please state whei that information can be procured. 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value the American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian fisln men under the provisions of the Treaty of W^ashington ? Please st them in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of Oii kind. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of flsb are annually tab by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the wati off the coasts which are to bo thrown open to competition by the Tiei of Washington? 9. DoCanadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of v State? And if so, to what extent and value If they do butlcaii state to What extent 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian flsliermeii in ki able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to rei>ack and c their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction ti that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-sbore tislie cause any detriment or hiuderance to the profitable pursuit of thise eries by our own fishermen; and if so, in what manner, ami to' extent annually ? I think it will as they can Bring their Fish in Fia Duty and they can Fit & have their Vessels at Less Cost thiin weei 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged iuj fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, aiid| number of men employed upon them? 13. Of the fisheries i)ursued by American fishermen ort the All; coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iu-sliore eries I „ . f'S ex-].| ■''"g and y\ '"«'tliale.s| ;|''eStat(| ; Mvcan "■"'"'" th(; ""f'eii.sherr I'^f^fi^lieri, tUat kii AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2995 STATES. X do you re- iaiue Town I ainteil vrithi value of thel siness of By-f Q Gulf of St] borliootl who! atiou ' IfsoJ Cuiteil States Will you ex| (lone so ? iate, esiieoiallj ■men under tliij es of t\sb take i4 to iST'i iuclj asc state wk^ ut and va\ne( lanadiaM ftsM k » Please sta ;be value of oii< p annually takl on, in the wattf )uby tlieW hie waters ot yd Ido butlcaua IsbormcuiubiJ 1 reitack ami ci [v vL'sirictio" tl| ^ in-sbore tisliel Ivsuit of tliose Iner, auil t'V T.u-FisUmVi' tost tbau v^e el |veengag<''l''l |ud value, ai'i] In oft' tbe Atli lat pvovtortioii It' tUe in-*^**^' 14. For what description of fish do American fishermea purine tlie jDgbore flsberies ? for mackerel 15. If yon state tliat the in-sbore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly formackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within tbe JDsbore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the iu-shore ytjf Id My Opinion their is not one Eight taken within the Shore Limmits of Three Miles. 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American ishermen off the coasts of British America taken outside the in-shore limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally fband on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within fliore f they are 11 Are colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen to fish in colonial inshore waters ? they are not 18, Are not more fish caught by colonial fishermen, when fishing in- fiore, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, tVom which large (jnantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone? they are 19, What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principally taiien? How much of it is taken within three miles of the sliore, and [fliatisthe annual value to the United States, or to the British Prov- inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the silorpf Manhadeu and I should Say that Seven Eights are taken within three Miles of the Shore as to the Value I cannot State but it is of considerable value as it is the Prinsable Bait used for Mackerel 20, Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and man- ning a vessel tor carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of [the cruise. State as far as possible, in detail the elements which go to hnalie up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning |totbe home port, the Prinsaple Class of Fishing presude from Maine is Cod Mackerel Fishery the relative cost of Fitting for Cod Fishing lis from 1 to 3,000 as to sise of Vessel and the length of the time |cecupide is from 4 to 12 Weeks and the Principle Cost is Provisions ilt& Bait As for MackereJ Fishing it Cost less than for Cod Fishing Fit the Vessells and their everage length of time to complete a foyge is from 8 to 12 Weeks the Cost for Fitting for a Mackerel voyge ' tioiii 800 to L'OOO as to beam & sise of Vessel. .'1. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the inie questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned )ra the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference betweett »e cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in these |*|>ects, explain what the difterence is and the reason for it. As for ittiug and Manning Ves.sells from the Provinces they can be Fitted & inwith a less cost than from the States in the first "place there is no or time as it takes from 1 to 2 Weeks each way to get to the kliiiig Grounds and they can build their Vessells at a less cost than i"i the States as timber and all Material is Cheaper and also labor ifl they can i)resue the Fishing Business at a less cost than the Ves- |-|ir()iu the fStates in every respect. l-j.'. Are you ac(|Hainted, and tor how long, and in what capacity, p tlie tisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, <^)ue- or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which itliese fisheries ? ''• What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are ■:.S:r V-' 2996 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. to be thrown open to American flsbermen under the pro\ isions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod & Mackerel 24. Please state in detail the atnoant and the annual value ;sav from 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be tliiown oiitn to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value ot the catch in the adjacent waters which ire more than three miles distant from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extcDt and what is the value ? They do Procure Bait sometimes within i jNIiles of the Shore but the Value is but of little importance as it is Mostley Herring Fish and of but little Value except for Bait 20. Do not the Ameiican fishermen purchase supplies in the ports m the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions. and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the tisheries! If so, in what ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing' vessels of the United States in their neighborhood during the t'lshhi^ season ? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the imim- value of that advantage. They do Procure suplies and also Ice, Salt Barrells &c and it is of great advantage to the Provinces to Sell to the American Fishing Vessels they Buy in evry Harbor of any note in the Dominion of Novascotia Prince Edwards Island Cape Briton vV. tliej North Shore of the G:'lf of Lower Canada I canot State the Vallii" but it must be a Large Amount 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States lishing- vessels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of tbej British North American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) liotlij without and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels] are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the niiiiiberl of men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are takeaj there, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what i» the proportion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amouutj of such catch taken within three miles ot the British coast, and of tlie amount taken outside of the three-mile limit ? I cannot State Wlia^ Number of Vessels Jir yearley engaged in the Fisheiey of the Britis Provinces but should from 2 to 300 and thej* areMostly Fishing for Gm & Mackerel the everage Crews Consist from 7 to 12 or 15 Men as to sisd of Vessels and I should say that but one eight of the Fish are cauglij within the 3 Miles limets of the Shore 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added t^ the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine uiila of the coast ; whence is such i)rofit derived ; and in what does it cousistj I should say that I do not consider 10 per cent is added to the privalig of Fishing within the 3 Miles limets and that consist of Mackerel ' Bait taken within the limets 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washiu^ ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, ortoi pack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; it; what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth; uually, in the aggregate ? 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses i concerned, more, or quito as, beneficial to the people of the Britij North American Provinces as to the people of the United States' should consider it of More advantage to the Provinces as regards f Fishing interest than to the United States AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2997 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? :\'l. For all Xo. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat her- rin?. and for all No. I salmon, does not the United States att'ord the only market, it does 33. If yon know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United Srateson tish and fiah-oil imported from Canada, wliich are to be made free under tlic provi.sions of the Treaty of Washington, please state ihem iinnnally, and by classes, from 18.34 to 1872, inclusive. U. If yon know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada oiitishaiid tish-oil imported from the United States, which are to be uiatle free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them an- cually, and by classes, from 18.34 to 1872, inclusive. 3"). The ol)ject ofthe.se inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in rcjipet'tof tisiiing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by tlie Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent t r tlie rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject which yoiibave not already stated in reply to i)revious questions, please state itastullv as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. ALBEKT T. TKUFANT. Attest: STEPHEN rUKINTON. Personally ai)peared the within named Albert T. Trufant & mad Mtli that the within instrument bv him signed is true. Before me, STEPHEN PURINTON, Justice of the Peace. No. 7. [CONFIDEMIAL.J K>rESTIOyS KESPECTIN(r the FISHEIUES TO BE PROPOUND- ED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. 1, Enoch (i. Willard make answer to the several questions propound- Idtomeon behalf of the United States, as follows. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you Iresiile ? Knoch G. Willard, — reside in Portland, Maine — am ,30 years old. 2, What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with the lAinerican and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the jcatcb of the dift'orent kinds of fish ? I have been in the business of buy- liDiiand selling fi.sii tor over 20 years, and furnishing supplies and outfits tisbernien, and have been an importer and dealer in Salt, Pur- Ichseil over >i4nO,000 worth of fish last year. 3, Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood rliohavo also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If Klilease give some such name. S. B. Chase of the house of Dana, & |Co, George Trefetheren, Henry Trefetheren, John Conley, Emery piling, A. G. Sterling, Geo. F. Lovett and others. 1. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United Ptatts, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will 1 examine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so. fMve examined articles 18 to 22 inclusive of the Treaty. /<■ \\ bat kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially '"ose which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the "^visions of the Treaty of Washington. God, hake, haddock, macke- 'aerriug, porgies, are the principal. f^'W§ '..■.■fr-f,v ' '< 1 ;:■'* ::;'^ '^S t^SM jijppgjjJU :i»m^|^K| ^^'^H *ill sic ,■'*•» fc- 2998 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 6. Can .yoa give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken annually ott' the coast of your State from the years 1851 to 1,s7l', iiidu. sivef If you can do this, please do so; and if not, please stiite'wlieie that informatiou can be procured. The kinds are stated in my last aa- swer. The value of the tish purchased at this port, incliuliiiji,^ codljur oil is about $2,200,000. Of the tish purchased here probably not one twentieth part are caught on that part of the Canadian coast thrown open by the treaty, — but what portion of the.nineteenth-tweiiticths not >o caught are taken upon the coast of this State, I am not aide to state with anything like accuracy, nor do 1 know who can— i»iol)al)lv one half. 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the American tishi ries which are to be thrown open to Canadian tishermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? riea>se state them in detail, showing the diflerent kinds of fish, and the value of each kind, It is not within my power to give any definite answer or answers that] should feel certain about ; to the first question I will state the kinds of fish caught on the coast of Maine which by the treaty will be oiien to the Canadian fishermen. 1. Mackerel — this fishery is large and valu- able, and may be made so to the Dominion fishermen if they (hoosetoj avail themselves of the opportunities ofi'ered. These fish are taken ou I the coast of Maine before they reach the coast to the eastward and are sent to the Southern markets. It is now a valuable fishery to the Maine fishermen, and will be opened to Dominion use. 2. The herring fishery is large and important — especially on the Eastern coast. 3. The \)o«m fishery is very large. The most important district ou the entire eoast id Maine. The pogie taken here is tatter than any other and attbrd niorei oil. When the fishery is thrown open under the Treaty the Doaiiniouj fishermen will be at liberty to take pogies upon the coast of this State! and enter into a large and profitt^ble trade. Also to catch (especially ial the winter) cod and other fish for sale fresh in the American niarketJ in competition with American fishermen, and to ^atch mackerel earlyj before they reach the Dominion waters, thus aflfc ding eniploynieut to the vessels and fishermen of the Provinces at times when there is noue| upon their own coast. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waterd off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treat^ of Washington ? Cannot say. 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters ol your State; and, if so, to what extent and value! A eonsiderablf amount of bait is supplied from this State to Canadian fishermeu: caii| say how much. 10. What is the probable aunual value to Canadian fishermen in bein^ able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repaek and eiiif their tish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction tba that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? Cannot say. It wi] depend upon the enterprise of the fishermen. , 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fislieiifl cause any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these lislj cries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to wlij extent annually ? Undoubtedly to some extent. There will be sbar competition in winter for our markets for fresh fish, and for uiaekerj early in the season. 1 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged iati AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 2999 fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the Booiber of wen employed upon them ? Don't know. 13. Of tlie lisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion con- jiutsof the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in-shore fish- eries? More than uinetentlis — perhaps uiueteentwentieths are out- side. U. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the iDsbore tisheries ? Mackerel chierty — Some herring. lo. If you state that the in shore tisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly for niiickeiel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within tlieiu shore limits, and what proi)ortion is taken outside of the in-shore limits ! Not over one fourth are taken within the inshore limits — three fourths or more outside. 1(1, Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American fisheriueu off the coasts of British America taken outside the inshore limits ; ami in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally found ou the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within shore J Yes. More than three-fourths. Mackerel in the Gulph of St. Liffrence are usually found on the Banks. \'i. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen totishin Colouial in-siiore waters ? I think not. IS. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- shore alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which large j quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ? Practical 1 i^hermeu can answer better than I. 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principally liakeu? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British Prov- inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the shore? Pogie. Nearly all the mackerel bait is taken on the coast of hlaiue within three miles of the shore. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your [Jtate or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and mau- iing a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of Ithe cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements which go to Imake np the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning liotlie borne port. A vessel of 00 tons costs $2,500 to 3,000$ per an- jiram, for tittiug, furnishing &c., and makes usually three cruises a I year. 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the liauie questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned |froiDtbe Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far as I are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference between Ithecostof the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in these jiesiKicts, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. The cost f fitting out, &c., in the Dominion is not so large as in the United |8tates. Cannot state the precise difference. Our fishermen generally »Dsi(ler the difference I think to be not less than 25 per cent, in favor ' the Dominion. Reasons our vessels cost more— cost more to supply All wages are less. 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, with lie tisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Bruuswick, Quebec, pPrince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of Fse fisheries ? I am as a fish dealer as before stated with most or all Ptliose fisheries. ,./ . . ■■■-♦ t ' ^ 1 ,.,t;«; ' M. _„^;^fr'*:."^¥ 0m " 3000 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 23. What kind of flsb frequent the waters of those coasts whi,!, .^^^ to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions ot tiie Treaty of Washington f Mackerel, herring and pollock. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual viihic say dom 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be tiiiowa oimh to American fishermen; also the amount and the annual viiliic of tlie catch in the adjacent waters which are more than tliif-o iiiiits distant from the shore; please state these facts in detail. I have not the in formation at hand that would enable me to state with acciiiacy. Tlic catch in outside waters is of many times the value of the catch iusid,. as before stated. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within tinw miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent and what is the value ? They do sometimes, but not to a lar^'o extent! 20. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the [mis „'( the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the lisiieries .' [f so, in what ports, and to what extent ? And if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the (ishiiij^vessiisof the United States in their neighborhood during the season .' Kxplain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value of tiiiit advan tage. They do, and will more largely when the Treaty takes etiet t Will also buy fish by the cargo and in smaller quantity. It is a valna ble trade to the Provinces 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fisliingves sel yearly engaged in the fisheries oil" the Atlantic coasts of the British Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without and within tlu' three-mile limit ? If so, stato how many vessels are so eiigagetl, wiiat is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men employed an uually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, wliat is tlu- annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the proportion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of such catch takiii | within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken out side of the three-mile limit ? I have already stated the sorts of tishtalieii,. those taken within the three mile limit would not be ouetoiiih ut all! taken in those waters. 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added toj the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it consist IJ Only for two months in a year is there any advantage, and this i.smainlyf confined to catching the per cent of Mackerel before stated. 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of \Vashinj;tou| any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure iisli, or to repinij them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; itso, wiiiitj are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be wortli annually/ in the aggregate ? American fishermen do not repack tish until tlief arrive home — the other rights except transhipping cargos are of value. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clausejiard concerned, more or quite as beneficial to the people of the British Nortf American Provinces as to the people of the United States i Yes. f have no doubt of it a large portion of fishermen and fish dealers believ( that without the repeal of the duty the former would gain a.s mukIi aj the latter, but with the repeal, the opinion is nearly if not quite uimvj sal among intelligent and practical men that the balance of gaiu, hn^ is with the people of the Provinces. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3001 31. Wliat is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of flsh of all ilescriptions which are auuually shipped to the United States ? Cannot sav. ";L'. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat liei ring, and for all No. I salmon, does not the United States attord the odIv market. Yes, the only market foreign to the Provinces. ;};;. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the Diiteil States on fish and fish oil imported from Canada, which are to hiiiuule tree under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please jtiitp them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Dont know. U. It yon know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on fish ami fishoil imported from the United States, which are to made fne under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them annually, and 1»\ classes, from I8r>4 to 1.S72, inclusive. 3'). The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in respect of ti shin g, and tlshermen, and tish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivaleiit for the lights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject ffbith you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. I do solemnly, sincerely & truly swear that the foregjiug Statements are true & correct to the best of my knowledge & belief. So help me God. E G. WILLAIJD Sworn to before me M N KICH iJcp. Collector of Cxstoms (SEAL.) June 11, 72 No. 8. [confidential.] i QIESTIONS RESPECTING POUXDED TO STATES. THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO- - ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED WStt ;iiifnES im 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you Inside.' Geo Trefethen, age forty-three. Portland Maine What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with ItteAmevicau and Canadian Atlantic sea-flsheries, and the value of the itatchof the ditiereut kinds of tish ''t I am a wholesale dealer in Dry & jPiikled have been in the business twentyone years in Portland previ- I Ms to which worked at curing fish from my youth up. Am an owner jin Six fishing Schoones and have owned more or less for twenty years, Imy father has been in tlie business sixty years 3, Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood hliobave also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If jso, please give some such name. 'W. S. Dana, A. G.Sterling, C& H lltefethen E. G. AYillard and many others n. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, I'lioffu as the Treaty pf Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- Nne articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so f I, lliave • %-'%'^x wm^ 3002 AWARD OF THE FISHEBY COMMISHION. 6. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, pspcoially those which are to be thrown open to thuCanaditin tishermon ninlfi tlii> provisions of the Treaty of Washington i Mackerel Codiisji I'oHock Hake Haddock & Porgies G. Can yoa give a statement of the kinds and <|uantitit>s of HhIi takoii annually of!" the coast of your State from the years I.S.')n<) isTj, in- cinsive ;' If you can do this please do so; and, if not, pIcaHc state where that information can be procured. I cannot state delinattiy, aii>l do not know where the information can be obtained 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value ot tho American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Caiiadimi lislicniifii under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington .' IMeuse state tluni in detail, showing the diil'erent kinds of dsh, and the value oteacli kiml, I think the most valuable fisheries to be thrown open by the Treaty is the I'orgie, which I should estimate to bo worth a Million Dollars to tlio State of Maine And which we have now entirely as the fish fdllowtbo coast and are taken almost wholly within the three mile limit the next in importance is the Mackerel, which perhaps is realy of more value but is not confined to the shore so closely, a large portion being taiceii outside the limit Codfish are mostly taken outside the tinee miles on oiu coast. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by tlieXieaty of Washington ? I cannot State 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure biiit or supplies in the waters ot your State ; and if so, to what extent and value ! They do, but eaniiot state to what amount. Porgies for Mackerel Bait has been quite largely shipped to N. S. from this State 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in bciii;,' able to procure bait, to laud and dry their nets, and to repack and cino their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction tliaii that contained in the Treaty of Washington .' I cannot tell. It will be owing entirely to how far they avail themselves of the priviledges opened to them 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to onr inshore flsheries cause any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these fish- eries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what nuinuer, and to what ex- tent annually ? If they should take advantage of onr winter tishin;:, I think that they injure our fishermen by over stocking our markets with j fresh fish, and thus reduce the price 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the! fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the number of men employed upon them ? I do not know, but think it is very limited at present, confined to a few Mackerel fishermen in fall ofj the year 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen ofi' the Atlauticj coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion cou- sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in shore tishi eries ? All of the Cod are taken ott shore and a large proportion of the! Mackerel, say three quarters to seven eights. Herring are mostly takeiij in shore, also Pollock 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue thM in-shore 'fisheries ? Mackerel principly, and will for Herring after thf treaty takes effect j 15. If you state that the in shore flsheries are pursued wholly od AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3003 chiefly for mackerel, please state what pro|K)rtion of mackerel is taken vitbiii the inshore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the lo-sbore limits ! I should say three quarters to Seven eights outside and one eigbts to a qarter in shore 111. Is not nuK'h the larger f|uantity of mackerel caught by American fiubermt'U oti' the coasts of British America taken outside the inshore liojits; luid in tlie .summer season especially, are not mackerel generally tonnd ou the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within sliore ? Yes in the summer, say from June 1st to Sept 1st our tishermcn usiialy do better otf shore, but in the fall after the Ist of Sept the Mack- erel usii.iiy play in shore, and the weather being rough it is safer to bo ueur a harbor 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen to Ml ill Colonial inshore waters J I should say not, except in rare iuitauces 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- shore, nlonjj.side a fieet of American flsliing-vessels, from which large (jiiautities of bait are thrown out, tluiu when fishing alone 1 I do not kuow. 111. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principally taken? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British Prov- luces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the slioie.' Porgies is the best bait for Mackerel, and is taken only on the coast of Maine and Massachusetts, and is all taken within three miles of the shore. lU Please state as to each class of fisheries carried ou from your State ordistrict, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and manning ;ive.'«8el tor carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of the (tuise. State, as far as possible, in detail, the elements which go to make up the co.st of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to tbe home port. For Bank cod fisheries we use vessels of about 00 ions co.stiiig from seven to ten thousand dollars, we usually fit and pro- visiou them for a voyage of two to four months with a crew of ten men. 1st we take IL'O to liO hhds Salt cost 3008 Bait 40 Brls. Clams, 320$ Xets lines & Hooks 180$ Provisions 5008 total $1300,— to which we add iftheyti.sh iu dories which the most of the fishermen do late years 0* tor (lories total 1000$. this for the first or spring cruise, if $1600 , successfull iisualy last two months the second cruise will cost less, sav about 10(»0$ for two months if codfishing. if for mackerel iu $1000 I Bay St. Lawrence 800$. third cruise for Mackerel usualy cost $600 fiW)*. Therefore if the vessel makes two Cod fish cruises and one Mackerel it will cost about 3200$ if One Codfish and two Mack- $3200 etel 30008 in rare instances we get a fourth trip, but as often only two. 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far K you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference be- tween the co.st of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in tiese respects, explain what the difference is, and the reason for it. I Kiiinot State what it costs to fit out a vessel from the Provences, but we always understood that it cost them much less, in the first place % bare cheeper vessels. And not so well provided and Provisioned. % are nearer home, and do not require so extensive an outfit, and ^^tl)«meu own and run their vessels, and are satisfied with poorer pro- ued wholly o^B^iaous than our people are, and many articles cost less in Nova Scotia fspcpially iimlci tlu' li Pollock lisli tiikcti IST'J. in- iMiHc state iiteiy, ami ill lie of the I tislit'imeu stiUc tlicm f each kiiitl. »e Treaty is )lhirs to lhi> h follow [\ic. nit the next more value Deing taken miles ou ouv uially taken n the waters (V the Treaty the waters ot [), but catiiitit .quite largely rmen in bfins,' iiieli anil I'ura strictiou tliaii .11. It will be edj^es opened lUore ftslieries It of these tish- id to what ex- liter ftshiui:, I imarkets witb ] k gaged in tlie [alne, and tlie Lit think it \\ [men iu tall ol the Atlautic iroportion cou- inshore tisli- Inortiou of till ' mostly takettj ni pursue tbe! Irving after tb( • -tf,r^'1f^:^-'' :^^^^'; • Pf it'1^1. •>»■; -.4i-i?if^;--."^; ti,;s 3004 AWARD OF THE FI8IIERY C0MMI8HI0N. tlmn in the 8tnte.s, vcshuIh can bo built for less, because wood and jrou i» (;ho(^|>or. Salt in cliiHipcr tlian any othor atticluH 22. Art! you ac(iuainteo the American flshermen gain under the Treaty of Washington ,iiiy viilualile rights of landing to dry nets and cure tish, or to repack tlitm.or to transship cat goes, which were not theirs before; if so, what aretliusi' rights, and wlu-t do you estimate them to be worth annually, iutlit a •;« legate / None for the right to land and dry their nets and tiirt'flsh; they may gain something in rights to land and transshij) Ciirffoes but I think the Heniflts to the people, where they are landed ortrunssbipped would be Jully equal to the beniflt we derive. 10. Is not the Treaty or Washington, so far as the lishing clauses lie {'oncerned, more or quite as beneficial to the people of the British Ninth American Provinces as to the people of the United States . I, tliiak it is decidedly in favn of of the People of Provinces, the right toliiiii};' their tish to our market free of Duty is worth more to them ilwii all tbey give is worth to us. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all ilesciiptioiis which are annually shii)ped to the United States .' 1 do not know. 31'. Tor all No. 1 and No. 2 nmckerel, for the larger part of the fat liming, and for all No. 1 salmon, does uot the United States afford the iiuly market .' It does, and also a large part of the Large Codfish. i3. If .von know what a'nount of duties is tannually paid to the United States on tish and flshoil imported from Canada, which are to be made iiree under the provision;^ of tiie Treaty of Washington, please state iliem annually, and by cUiSses, Ironi 1854 to 1872, inclusive I do not know. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on Ifiiihand ti.sboil imported from the United States, which are to be made (rte under tbe provisions of the said Treaty, please state them annually, [and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusivi?. I do not know. 35, Tbe object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in |re,ep. Collector. ^^/"■■[ -iff.^ , ^mt ,41' ^■m: ' ,,rf'l >' ^..«'i:i 1^«, Vf -* ,Jl-i» 3006 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 9. [CONFIDENTIAL. THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO — ON BEHALF OF THE UNITEL QUESTIONS RESPECTING POUNDED TO STATES. 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do yoi reside ? John Conley. Portland, Me. age, 69 years. 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted witl the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of tbi catch of the different kinds of fish? I have been in the Fish and Oil bus! ness for the last thirty years. 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood wht have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If so please give some such name. E. G. Willard; Geo. Trefethen &Co. Henry Trefethen & Sons ; Emery dishing ; A. G. Sterling & Co, 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so ? 1 have. 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especialh those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under th; provision of the Treaty of Washington ! Cod ; Hake ; Cusk ; Haddock ; Mackerel ; Pollock ; Herring ; Menhaden, or porgies are the principal kinds. C. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of flsh taken annually ofl^" the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, inclu sive f If you can do this please do so ; and if not, please state where that information can be procured. The kinds of Fish are as above stated, The value of fish and fish-oil is about two million dollars (§2000.000.) for Portland sales. 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the American fisheries which are to be thrown o[)en to Canadian lisbeiiueu under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state tLeni in detail, showing the ditt'erent kinds of fish, and the value of each liiiid I cannot state the amount Mackerel in large quantities and value, also Codfish ; Hake, Haddock, Pollock, Herring & Pogie.s will be of great importance and profit to the Canadian fishermen. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually takra by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the wauij off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by tbeTnaii of Washington ? 1 cannot say. 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or sui>plies in the water>o| your State? and if so, fi what extent and value'? They procure largi, quantities of bait and supplies; value not known. 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in beiii| able to procure bait, to laud and dry their nets, and to repack aiidcufl their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction tli»' that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? I cannot .say, but tliiul it very valuable. 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fisberij cause any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these tisi eries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to m extent annually ? I do not think it will, to any great extent but m ISSION. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3007 lES TO BE PEO F OF THE UNITED own aud State do you lars. oming acquainted witli »s, and tbe value of the in tbe FisU and Oil busi- your neigUborliood who liar information ^ If so, Geo. Trefetbeu &Co,; G. Sterling & Co. n and tbe United States, annexed. Will you ex. tt you bave done so ! I )f your State, especially diantisberraen under th; 1 Hake jCusk; Haddock; porgies are tbeprmcipal td (juantities of ftsb taken years 1854 to 1HT2, inc aj f not, please state where ifFisb are as above statiHll ion dollars (§2000.000.) for] le amount and value of the! eu to Canadian tisbeimeul Uont Please state tbetn P tbe value of each kj.4 Irge quantities and all .1 lg&Pogiesvcillbeofgreat| of "flsb are annually taken nfisbermen,inthe.-|U4 competition by tbe Tieaifl Ir supplies in the water> j feanflsbernieninJ Its, andtoreiv.ickan "J Till have a chance to compete with our winter fishing, which is very valuable. 12. What number of Canadian vessels aud boats are engaged in the fslieries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, aud the number of men employed upon them ? I do not know. 13. Of tbe fisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion con- sists of the deep-sea fisheries, aud what proportion of the inshore fish- eries? About three quarters of the fishing is deep-sea fishing. 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the in shore fisheries ? >Iackerel aud herring, principally. 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within the in-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the in- shore limits ? Should think that less than one fourth part are taken within the in shore limits. 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American fishermen off the coasts of British America taken outside the iu-shore limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within shore? Cannot say. 1". Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fisher- men to fish in Colonial inshore waters ? Do not think they are. 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- shore alongside a fleet of American fishing- vessels, from which large quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ? Cannot say. but should think there would be. 19. What is the best bait for tbe mackerel, and where is it principally taken? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is tbe annual value to tbe United States, or to the British Proviuces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the shore ? The best bait is pogies ; nearly all the m.ackerel bait is taken on tbe coast of Maine and within three miles of the shore. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and manning I a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of the cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements which go to j make up tho cost of taking and delivering n full cargo and of returning to tbe borne port. Salt, Lines, Provisions, etc. varying from One thou- sind (1000) dollars to three thousand (301)0) dollars. Tbey usually make jlroni two to three trips per year. 21. Wben you have fully answered question 20, plea.se answer tbe I same questions as to vessels fitted out, »M|iiipped, funiisbod, and manned iromthe Dominion of Canada, inchxling Priiiro iMlward l.sliiiid, so tar asyuuiire able to do so. If you state that there is any dift'ereiice be- tween the cost of the Caiunli.tii and the (!ost of tbe American ves.sel in iiithese respects, explain what the dill'creiice is and the reason for it. jSlionld tbiiilc the cost of the Canadian would be much less than the I American. .'. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, with |tbetisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia," New Brunswick, (^)nebec, or "riuceKaward Island, or with either, and if either, with which ofthe.se psheries? I have been acquainted with the Nova Scotia and New jBniiiswiek fisheries for about twenty years. 23. Wbat kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are ml 'm^^ .s-.*-}!!. J.t !^i."' ■- ■■->«i!.-■*■H^Ji'■■rJwp^ '■''^^*^m^ :'i^W. 3008 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. to bo thrown open to American flsbermeu under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod and Pollock principally. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say trom 1854 to 1873 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be tluown oiieii to American tisbermen ; also the amount and the annual value ot tlip catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. Do not know. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters witliin three miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent and what is the value? Should think not to pny great extent or value! 20. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports ot the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the lishories ! If so, in what ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the tishiuir vessels of the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing' season ? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the uionef- value of that advantage. They do purchase supplies in most all tla- ports on the fishing coast, and is consequently of advantage to the in- habitants of thv; difl'erent ports. 27. Hjive you any knowledge of how many United States lishinj;- vessels yearly engage in the fisheries otf the Atlantic coasts ot the liiK ish North American Provinces, (excluding Xewtoundlaud,) both without and within the three-mile limit t If so, state how many vessels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men j employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- portion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of I such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of tliel amount taken outside of the three-mile limit ? Cannot state how luanvf vessels are employed or the amount of fish taken. 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added tol the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine niileJ of the coast ; whence is such profit derived, and in what does it consist?! Only a small part of the fish are taken within three miles of the coibtj and the profit not large compared with the outside fishery. 29. Do the A merican fishermen gain under the Treaty of WashingJ ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure tish, or toiej pack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before: ifsoj what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth auj nually, in the aggregate ? Do not think thev do, to any great extent, 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so fsir as the fishing clauses aia concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British Noit' American Provinces as to the people of the United States ? 1 consiilej the advantage fully equal and beneficial. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of a| descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States .' Caniia say. 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fa herring, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States afford tli only market. I think it does to a large extent. j 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the [iiita States on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to 1)6 maJ free under the provision"* of the Treaty of Washington, please stal them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Cau"( state. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3009 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid iu Canada on iisli and rtsb-oil imported from the United States, which are to be made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them aiiDiially, and by chisses, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 15. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in respectof Ashing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent for the rights in those respects whicli were granted by said Treaty to tlie United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject fhicli you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of iu re- jjivct of it ;' Isolranly sincerely & truly swear that the foregoing Statements are iriie & correct to the bests of my knowledge & belief — so help mo God. JOHN COXLEY Sworn to before me this Mth day June 1873 M N KICEI Bej) Collector. No. 10. [CONFIDENTIAL.] (SEAL.) IQIESTIONS liBSPECTlNG POL'XDED TO STATES. THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO- - OX BEUALF OF THE UNITED llr Ic; -i ^-^mi ' Ml .-•1f;^,-,«f 1, What is your name and age, and in what towu and State do you iKJde? 0. B. \yhitten; 31 Portland Maine 2, What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with Ilk Aaiericau and Canadian Atlantic sea-flsheries, and the value of the jatcliof the different kinds of fish ? Have been in the fish business ten Ijears Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood |tlio liave also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If w, please give some such name. T. C. Lewis Abel Chase C. M. Trefe- I K. T. Sterling I A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, k'jowuas the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- piiiie articles 18 to U2, inclusive, and state that you have done so ? pave examined the articles referred to above 1 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially psewbich are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the fovisious of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod— Haddock Pollock Hake lackerd Uerring and'Pohageu 'U'aiiyou give a statement of the kinds and quantites of fish taken hially off the coast of your State from the years IS.")! to 1S7L*, inclu- p* If you can do this please do so; and if not, please state where [iMiiifoniuition can be procured. Unable to state It you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the Imerieau tisbories which are to be thrown open to Canadian fishermen per the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state them jiletaii, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. |JBnot say ■'#-^HS*--:i ; ifeJS 3010 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I I 8. What quantity and valne of each kind of flsli are annually takeD] by Canadian ftshermen, and what by American fishermen, in the wattrs oil the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Tieatv of Washington? Do not know ' I 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters utl your State? and if so, to wliat extent and value? A very large im,.] portion of the bait used by the Canadian mackerel fishermen is takr nl from the warters of this State 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in beiu"! able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and ciirel their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction tliaal that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? Cannot say 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in shore fisbeiiei cause any detriment or hiuderance to the profitable pursuit of these lisli eries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, ami to wlia^ extent annually ? As the Canadian fishermen can build fitt and maii their vessells at an exceedingly less cost than American it would be i detriment to American fisheries because they could not compete witlj them 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in tliJ fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and tti] number of men employed upon them ? Do not know 13. Of the fisheT-ies pursued by American fishermen otf the Atlanti(( coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion cousisn of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the inshore tisheriesl Most of the large fishing vessels of this State pursue the deep sea fisliinj off the Coast of British North American Provinces for nearly flveraontli and then a large proportion of the same vessels pursue the macken fishing 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue tlj inshore fisheries? Mackerel 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly ( chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is takd within the in-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of tbj in-shore limits? Should judge that seven eighths of all the luackei^ caught are taken out side of the inshore limits 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by Americij fishermen oft the coasts of British America taken outside the in shoi limits ; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel gea rally found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not with shore ? Yes 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermj to fish in Colonial in-shore waters ? No I 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when flshiiig 1 shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which Inrf quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ? It roqiiif a continual throwing of bait to catch mackerel with a hook conj quently vessels in the tieet do better than they would by fishing ala lU. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it pria pally taken ? IIow much of it is taken within three miles ot'tbesM and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the Biitj Provinces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three milesj the shore? Pohagen — and all taken in American waters and mostf it within three miles of the shore 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from yi State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, ami ml r, and to wliall AWARD Oi^ THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3011 ins; Ding a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of tjje cruise. State, as far as possible, iu detail the elements which go ,j pake up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of return- to tbe home port. It will cost to build and fit out a vessel of 100 dorcodtishing to be absent the average time— say three mouths I ilo|Hjo_For mackerel fishing $11550 CoJfisbiiig Cost of Vessel " " Provisions " " Salt " " Dories " " Bait 9500 J::iOO 4'M 3o0 500 81-2000 Mackerel fishing, cost of Vessel 9500 " " " " Provisions 1000 " " Salt 150 " " Bait 300 " " Barrels COO $11550 . When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the ! questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned IfroiutheDomiuiou of Cauada, includiug Prince Edward Island, so far ivouare able to do so. If you state that there is any difiference be- jtieea the cost of the (Janadian and the cost of the American vessel iu (tliese respects, explain what the difference is, and the reason for it. K lid say that Canadian vessells can be built and fitted lor nearly one jialt' less than American — material for building is less — They use a orer class of vessels and provision them at a very small expense 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, with Ik fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, or }rince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of Ikese fisheries ? Acquainted with the cod and mackerel fisheries — arly ten years both curing cod-fish and inspecting mackerel 1 23. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are Dbe thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of the [eaty of Washington ? Mackerel mostly \i\. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from ito 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown open to ueriean fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the catch ithe adjacent waters, which are more than three miles distant from lie shore. Please state these facts in detail. 2j. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three jiles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent, M what is tbe value? Sometimes the American fishermen take bait Ithiu three miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada but to a very pall extent Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of Je Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, i^rovisious, 1 various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries ? If uuwhat ports, and to what extent I And, if that is the case, is it ft ail advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing-ves- '^ofthe United States in their neigliborhood during the fishing sea- Kxplaiii why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value Itliatiulvaiitago. They do purchase .siip[)lies in the ports of ti>e Do- "litiiiol'Canada — Anieri(!au fishermen Irefpiently laud their cargo of ptidaiul ship them to American i)orts — then they are obliged to iiiU'uUni outlit, aiul it is a great advantage to have the trade of the iijr-vossi'l.s ■ Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing-ves- s yearly engage iu the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British I'tli American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without ^'^itbiu the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels are so Pgwl, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of raeu ,*-'^%' ,„r w^.^ ii'll s mh 8*-^i*;;;.,- Hvu, itn '4M 3012 AWABD OP THE FISHERY OOMMISSION. employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- portion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount ot such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, aud ot the amount taken outside of the three-mile limit ? 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within tliree marine miles of the coast; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it consist 1 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washinirtii!! any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, wliat are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be wortli annuallv, in the aggregate 1 They do not 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North American Provinces as to the people of the United States i A i far greater benefit to the people of British Xorth American Trovinces I than to the people of the United States 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all | descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat I herring, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States a fiord the I only market. Yes 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to theUnitedJ States on fish and fishoil imported from Canada, which are to be madej free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state| them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canad^ on fish and fishoil imported from the United States, which are to made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them an-j nually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Greai Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalenj for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to tlij United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject wbicrf you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please stat^ it as fully as if you had beeu specially inquired of in respect of it. I solmnly sincerely & truly swear that the foregoing statementi are true & correct to the best of my knowledge & belief. So help mj God. O. B. WHITEN Sworn to 1 efore M N RICH Dcp Collector No. 11. [CONFIDENTIAL,] QUESTIONS RESrECTING THE FISHERIES TO BK n\ eOU^DBD TO S B CHASE ON BEHALF OF TUE O'lTE 3TATES. 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do y| reside? Stephen B Chase reside in Portland Main au' 07 years old AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3013 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with the Afflprican and Canadian Atlantic seafisheries, and the value of the catcb of the different kinds of fish? I have been in the buisuess of re- ceiving and Delveriug fish for the last twentyfive years 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood who liave also bad the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If so, please give some such name. E G Willard George Trefetherin Henry Ireft'tberiii John Conley Emery Gushing A G Sterling George F Lovett. 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- aiiiiue articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so ? 1 liiive 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially tliose which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod Hake, Cusk Haddock Miickeri'l Herring Fogies are the principle fi. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of flah taken annually ott' the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, inclu- sive? if you can do this please do so; and if not, please state where ; information can be procured. The kinds are statied in my last an- j swer. The value of Fish purchase including Cod Liver Oil and the Oil I manufactured from Porgies is from $1800,000 to .«i2,000000. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the I American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian fishermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state them iu detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. Cannot give any answer to the first part of questions, the kinds of Fish Icanght on the coast of Maine which by the Treaty will be opened to the llannailin Fisherman, 1st, Mackererll, which is large & valuable and may Ite maid so to the fishermen of the Provinces if they choose to make them lio,a8 they are taken earley in the season on our southern Cost and then jitork east until Fall when they reach the English waters, this branch of i fishing interest is large and vauable to Maine Fisherjnan, and will be lopen to Dominion fishermen 2d The Herring fishery is large and im- Iportant especially on the Eastern Coast 3d the pogie fishery is large |aDdimi)ortant,especscaly to Maine, and by the treaty this branch is trown I to the Dominion Fishermen and will open to them a large and pro- itable buisness to them if they choose to themselves of it also the Fresh Irish buisness will be thrown open to them in the Winter season affording Implounieut to men & vessels during the time they cannot be so em- |!oye on their coast 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken lyCauailiau fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters fcffthe coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty pnVashiugton ? Cannot say Do Canadian fishermen i)rocure bait or supplies in the waters of Nr State? and if so, to what extent and value? A large amount of pits is supplied to Canadien Fisherman cant say how much . ' What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being pie to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure ffirtishon the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than pt contained in the Treaty of Washington ? Cannot say 111. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fisheries Nany detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these fish- pby our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to what ex- p annually .' This will depend very much on the enterpris of the .K^MMc'f 'I 3014 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 'SI Canadin Fisherman, as they will have a chance to competute lor the win. ter iishing & earley mackerel Fishing 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are eiinajjed in the fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, ami tlic number of men employed upon them ? Bo not know j 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen ofif tlie Atlaiitii^ coasts of the British Xorth American Provinces, what proportion con^ sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the inshore lish cries ? More than three qaurters perhaps Nino tenths are out side 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the in shore fisheries f Mackerel & Herring 15. If you state that the inshore fisheries arepursued wholly orchietiv for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within 1 the in-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the iii-sLore I limits 1 Should think one fourth part are taken within in shore limits 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by AmericMi fishermen ofi' the coasts of British America taken outside the in-sborel limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel geiierallH found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within shorel) Cannot say 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American tisbern^euj to fish inColonial in-shore waters 1 1 think not I 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing iiij shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which large! quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing aloue ? Cauuotl say 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it prineipallyl taken ? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British ProvJ inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of tha shore ? Pogies, nearly all the Mackerel Bait is taken on the coast o^ Maine and within three miles of shore 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from youa State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and nianj ning a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of the cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements which gota make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returuiiii to the home port. As near as I can ascertain from enquirey think tlij ezpence will will b^ from $2000 to $3000, and usualy make three cruse| a year 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer thj same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, andmaune from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, sol as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any diflference betweei the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in thesi respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. Cannot te| 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacitjj with the fisheries on the coast of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebei or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which these fisheries ? I am with the Nova Scotia and New Brunswic 23. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which i to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of tij Treaty of Washington 1 Cod and Pollock and salmon. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (saj fn from 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be throj^ open to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual vail aloue ? Cauuotl AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3015 of the catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant from the shore ; please state these facts in detail, do not know •;:), Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three Diiles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ; if so, to what extent, auilwhut is the value ? they do sometimes but to small extent. ■% Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of tbe Uomiiiiou of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, ami various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries j if JO. in wliat porta, and to what extent? And, if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- vessels of the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing season ? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value of that advantage. — They do and will more largelj' when the treaty takes ef- fect, aufl will prove a valuable trade to the Province 21. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing- ves- sels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British Wh American Provinces (excluding Newfoundland) both without and within tlie tliree-niile limit i If so, state how many vessels are so en- gajied, wliat is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men eraployed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, what is tlio annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the propor- , or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of such j catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken outside of the three-mile limit? 1 have no knowledge of the [Nnmber of Vessels employed or how many fish taken 2$. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to I tbe profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of the coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what does it consist? onley for a short time in the fall, and is mainly confined the per cent, of I mackerel before stated 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington [any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack them, [or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; if so, what are rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, in I the aggregate? Americans do not repack fish until they arrive home Jtlie other rights excepting transshipping cargo is of no value 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are IcoDcerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North JAnierican Provinces as to the people of the United States ? I have no jiloubt of it and in conversatlon»with both class of Fisherman the Do- Imnion Fishermen are better satisfied than our own with the Treaty jaccording to there own statements 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all Iteiptlons which are annually shipped to the United States T? Cannot mj 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat leiring, and for all No. I'salmon, does not the United States afford the |Mly mariiet. Yes. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United jStates on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to be made Ifree under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state them |»Mnally, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Do not know ^1' If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on ^and fish-oil imported from the United States, which are to be made we under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them annually, N by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. .^■H ^m •Vt!*! '■?f?S-' m !tfe«^^ 8016 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether tlio rights in respect of flshinj;, and fishermen, and flsh, which were granted to (Ireat Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just oiiuivaltut for t lie rights in those respects which were granted by .said iivatv to the United States. If you laiow anything bearing upon this Milijict whiclj yon liave not already stated in reply to previous (juostions, ])lt'ii>t. state it as fully as if you liad been specially inquired of in respect ot it, I solninly sincerely and truly swear that the foregoiufj statiiiicnts are true & correct to the best of my knowledge & belief. So help nu- Giid STICPJJKN B CJlASi: Sworn before me this 13th day of eTune 1873 No. 12. M N incn, JJejh Collector. [confidential.] KESPECTING TO THE FISHERIES TO 15E Plto -, OX BEHALF OF THE UNlTKDl QUESTIONS FOUNDED STATES. I, Marshall N. Rich, make the following answers to the several qucs j tions propounded to me, respecting the fisheries on behalf of tho (J. S: 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do joii reside? Marshall N Rich— reside in Portland Maine— am 42 years of] age. 2. What opportunities have j'ou had for becoming acquainted witli I the American and Canadian Atlantic sea flsheriee, and the value of the catch of the different kinds of fish? I have been Secretary oftliel Board of Trade of this city for the past ten years — published a commerf cial paper for seven years — in which capacities it has engaged miicli| of my time in preparing & collating statistics and trade reports. I liavel also been Deputy Collector of Customs for this port for nearly tivej years, and am at this time, 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neigliborlioodj who have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar inl'oriiiatioD.'j If so, please give some such name. W. S. Dana, E. G. Willard, Georga| Trefethen, Emery Cashing, Geo. F. Lovett, John Conley tS: others. 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States,! known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will yon exj amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so! Lave examined Articles 18 and 22 inclusive of the " Treaty of Wash^ ington." 5. What kinds of flsh frequent the waters of your State, especially those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen iiiidorthi l)rovisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cody Pollock, Hake, UaddockJ Mackerel, Herring, «& *' Porgies" (chiefly.) G. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish faked annually off the coast of your State from the years 1851 to 1872, iudiii sive? If you can do this, please do so; and if not, please state wlien that information can be procured. Of the kinds of fish previously oniJ inerated, including Cod-liver Oil. The value of that purchased in tliij market, is not much short of two and a half million dollars annually, « which, probably not one twentieth part are caught on that part of thj Coast to be thrown open by the " Treaty." I cannot state where tbe i formation asked can be procured. AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3017 '. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount atul value of the American tislieries which are to be thrown open to Canadian fishermen luulpi'the provisions of the Treaty of Wasliington ? IMease state them ill (lotail,siio\viii{j the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. Icaiiiiot state with any practical degree of accuracy the uniount and value of the American Jisheries to be open to the Cana thoiisaoj dollars are the prevailing class of craft employed by the Miiiiie M ermen and to " fit out " for a mackerel cruise — complete ; costs froj $2,500 to $3,000 per annum and they make three — sometimes four cm a year, 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer tij same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, ami mls are true & correct to the best of my knowledge <\: ite lif— So help me God MAHSIJALL N. KICU. Sworn before mo this 12th day of June 1873 (Seal.) D MOKTLOK I)cUj Collr, Jmike of the Pence No. 13. fCONFIDENTIAL.] (iUESTlONS RESPECTING POUNDED TO STATES. THE FISHERIES - ON BEHALF OF TO BK P1!0. THE I'NiTKDi 1. What is your name and age, and in what. town and State do you j reside? Noah Svvett — 47 — Welltieet Massachusetts. 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with j the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of tliej catch of the different kinds of lish? Have been engaged in the mack- erel fishery 35 years. 15 years as catcher, 20 years as Inspector. Never] Lave visited the Canadian waters. 3. Can you give the names of other j^ersons in your neighborhood wlioj have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar inforuiatiou ? If so,[ please give some such name. 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex-| amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have douesof Have examined the articles mentioned 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especiiill.J those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishernieu under tlif provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Cod, Mackerel, & Meuliiii den or Pogisare the Principal varieties of great value — 0. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fislitaiiei annually off the coasts of your State from the years 1854 to 187i', mi elusive ? If you can do this please do so ; and if not, i)lease state wlioit that information can be procured. The Reports of the Insj)ector Geul era! will give the total catch of Mackerel for those years but will iiicliidr the foreign with the home catch, and it will be difficult I think to tiinlj separate statement of each. Am not aware that any public record the catch of Cod on our shores has been kept. 7. If yon are able to do so, will you state the amount and value oftii American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian lisberiueij AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3021 nnder the provisions of the Treaty of W.ashington ? Please state them ill detail, showing the ditterent kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. giipposiiij; that an annual .average catcjh of Mackl — to bo 250.000 bar- rels in all tht^ New England States at 8 10 per barrel — the value would be _,j2,:»00.0i'O lor sueh fish alone, the value of the Cod &^ Torgy catch. lii'iiiiiot well acquainted with 8. What (luautity and value of each kind of lish are annually taken by Ciiuailiau llshernien, and what by American fishermen, in the waters oif tile coasts wliich are to bo thrown open to competition by the Treaty of Washiiifjtoii :' II. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of voiir State ? and if so, to what extent and value ? J think the ('anadian iislierinoii have not only in exceptional cases procurd Bait ou our coast. but liave procured it from second hands. HI. Wiiat is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure ibeii lish on the coasts of your State, without an.y other restriction than iliat contained in the Treat,y of Washington ? The privilege to procure biit is valuable, vso is the liberty to repack and inspect their mackerel. Thepi'iviU'go relating to nets is not worth much to either side, they salt tbeir nets and do not dry 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to i \r inshore fisheries cause any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these tish- m by our own fishermen ; and, if so, in what manner and to what ex- tent annually! Our home tleet is already too numerous for the pros- [wity of the business. If this Treaty causes the Canadian fishery largely to increase, the detriment to the Home vessel will be serious ou acitof theditterence in fitting, cost of vessel, &c enabling them to sell BDiler 11 What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the felierlesof your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the I mbur of men employed upon them ? Am not aware that at present I tkre are any to make acct of 13, Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic I toasts of the liritish North American Provinces, what proportion cou- (istsof the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of tlie inshore fish- Ides! Very Lirgely deep sea fishery 11. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the I iDslioi'o fisheries ? Mostl,v mackerel — 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or ItMy for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken hitbiii the inshore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the jinsboie liuiits J My opinion is from what I can learn from what ex- |l*rieiice(l persons say that more than '} of the catch has been outside the le limit in the Bay of St Lawrence. The American in shore fishery lively valuable, especially early & late, for mackerel and fresh fishing 'all. Winter vS: spring W. Is not much the larger quantit.v of mackerel caught by American iSsberiuen off the coasts of British America takeu outside the inshore pits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generall.y pd oil the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within liliore? Such are undoubtedly the facts li. Are Colonial fishermen injured bj' permitting American fishermen I" lisiiiu Colonial inshore waters? I look upon it as a very great ad- ptiige to the Colonist 1^ Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- i ;wi*- ^ 1? fr- 1 fin J-IP^^vt' 3022 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from wliich lar^e quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ; It is otteu the case that while fishing in shore the Colomal flshermen ties on to the American, so as to take advantage of her bait, to toll mackerel aloiK' side 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it priiicinallv taken 1 How much of it is taken within three miles of tlie slioio, auil what is the annual value to the United States, or to the Britisli I'l'ov. inces, as the case, may be, to take such bait within three miles of the shore ? The Porgy is the almost universal bait used, and is found from Long Island to the Penobscot Eiver. and is all taken within the limits the annual value to one of our fishermen, is from $300 to $500 dollars 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, aiuf maniiiu;; a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of the cruise. State, as far as possible in detail the elements which go to make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to the home ports For the mackerel Fishery — an average vessel would cost, , 88000.00 Fitted with Barrels — 450 00 " " Salt 150.00 (( u Provisions 400.00 " " Bait 300.00 " " 16 men— 320o.0(j; 12.400.00 I if she carries seine 1200.0(j 13.600.00 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, aud uiauneil from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far] as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference be- tween the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel iaj these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason tor it. The! American mackerel fleet is a fleet of Yachts calculated forfleetuessj and composed and constructed of the best materials, The Cauadiauj fleet is far below the other in material aud construction. Many of tliej duties that the American pays are unknown to the Colonist Barrels, j salt and Provisions are likewise lower and of an inferior quality andj the habits of living on board are very much in favor of the Colonist. judge that the inhabitant of the Dominion can furnish aud sail liisj Schooner at. i at least less cost than the American 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, aud in what capacity, witlj the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, (Jiiebec. off Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, which of tliesf fl.sheries ? Have no personal accjuaiiitance, but have olteii sent vessel^ to those waters. 23. What kind of fi.sli frequent the waters of those coasts wliioli arj to be thrown open to Ameriiran tisliermeu under the provisions of M Treaty of Washington? Mackerel & Cod 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual valiio (say froU 1S54 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown opej to American fishermen; also the amount and the annual value ot tlr catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distaa AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3023 from the slioio; please state these facts in detail. For the ten pre- ceding years our tishenneu from Cape Cod especially have not fre- quented to any great extent the Bay of St. Lawrence for jears not avessel went there from this town ( Wellfleet) Our shore lishery proving so much surer and productive than that of the Bay Since seining has liecome so jiopular Our hook flshernien are turning their attention that m. to avdid cruising on the same ground with the seiners 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so. to what extent, and what is the value ? Am not aware that they procur bait at all in the Canadian Waters 20, Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries ? If so, in what ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- vessels of the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing season ? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money- value of that advantage. The Ports in Gut of Canso. Georgetown. Charlottetowu Malpec & Cascumpec are largely indebted to the Ameri- can fishermen for their custom. During the Reciprocity treaty these places flourished from the gains derived from that source. Since that treaty has been cancelled those same places have suffered severely from j being unable to furnish supplies to American vessels 2(. Have you any knowledge of how many United States flshing-ves- 1 sels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British Xorth American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without andwithiu the three-mile limit? If so, state how many vessels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men employed annually on such vesfjels, what sorts of fish are taken there, that is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- pouion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of Jsach catch taken withiti three miles of the British coast, and of the Imant taken outside of the three-mile limit ? 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to Itlie profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles jof the coast; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it con- last! Of course it will be a convenience to fish in shore. AVhen we were \imi that privilege fishermen kept more at sea, did not frequent the jhrbors so often and employed more time in business, deducting what jtliey would catch off shore during the time used in shore, and amt of inie saved I think the privilege quite valueless. -I Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington |Jiiyvaluable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack I or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, what ||tetbose ri<;hts, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, the aggregate ? Am not aware that the American will gain any liiable right in this way that thej' do not now possess. 311. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the lishing clauses are ferned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North ^mmn Provinces as to the people of the United States ? The fisher- Mot the United States are a unit in deciding that the treaty is against leia 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all scriptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? '■' For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat -'-"'*i»* .^1 m\ '««i%^.^f»<; ^'*-it5! sfeV- i 1. '#*!l ■^v^^M 3024 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. herriug, .im' for all No. 1 salmon, does not tbe United States afford the only oiarket. They do. Fat tisli will not keep in warm couutries. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United States on fish and tish-oil imported from Canada, which are to be made free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please stute them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 34. Jf you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on fish and tish-oil imported from the United States, which are to bo made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them animullv and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. ' ' 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the ri<;lit.s in respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a jiistequiv. alent for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject which you have not already stated in reply to j^revious questions, please state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect ot it. I can only say that the universal opinion of those engaged in tbe American fisheries both at sea and on shore is that the terms of tbe treaty are decidedly against them, some have gone so far as to predict the total ruin of our own fisheries when brought into competition with the Dominion fisheries. For the last 25 or 30 years the Yau- kee has been training the Colonist his business, actually learuiuj; him his trade a large proportion of the fishermen of Nova Scotia are better acquainted on our shore than on their own. they have amou^' them many capable men who have only to tit out their cheap vessels cheaply and enter the lists against their trainers and if this is carried to the extent that Yankee enterprise would carry it were the position re- versed we may expect our business to decline and go into other hands, so depressing an effect has this view upon the fisheries of this town tbat already this year we have sold 15 out of a fleet of 75 vessels and added none. NOAH SWETI, Then personally appeared the above named Noah Swett and acknoni edge the foregoing answers to be the best of his belief correct EBENEZER T. ATWOOD Justice of the Pern Wellfleet June 17, 1873 No. 14. [CO-\FIDENTIAL.J QUESTIONS EESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO BH VHOk POUNDED TO STATES. ON BEHALF OF THE USITEI 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do.voii rft side i Chas. C Pettingill, Salem, Massachusetts J 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted mtB the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value ot tlij catch of the ditterent kinds of fish ? Have been in the Fishing for' years past, most of the time in Gloucester 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborboo who have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information . so, please give some such name. Chas A Koper of Salem, Mass AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3025 i, A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, linown as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will voa examine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have doue so ? i bare examined said articles 5, What kinds of fish freqnent the waters of your State, especially tiiose wliicli are to be tiirown open to the Canadian lishermen under the movisioiis of the Treaty of Washington i IMenhaden, a fish which is used principally for Mackerel Bait, and the Provinces depend mainly npoii us tor a supply, in my judgment it is quite a valuable considera- tion for them C. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken auuiially oti" the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, inclu- sive! If you can do this please do so; and if not, please state where that information can be procured, this information will come to you correctly, no doubt. if you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the Aiuericau fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian fishermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington f Please state them in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. Itbiiik mainly, our advantage from the Treaty must come from the Mackerel Fishery. I have always regarded free fishing for mackerel in j the Bay of St. Lawrence quite important to our fishing interest, other j isheries of no particular value to us, which comes from the Treaty, witb {reetisbiug in the Bay, which calls a large number of our vessels there give them a large amount of trade from our fleet, which they have al- ways regarded of much value to them. Add to that their fish free in I oar markets, with the advantage of our Mackerel Bait which comes to freely, I am inclined to think nearly if not quite balances their [claims against ns, S. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken [byCanadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters ift'tlie coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty jof Washington ? These facts are contained in Reports which I presume l»il! be available 9, Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of hour State? and if so, to what extent and value * largely their Mack- |wl Bait comes for our coast. Value could not say 10, What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being hble to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure Itlidrtish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than Ittat contained in the Treaty of Washington ? Could not say 11, Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-shore fisheries taiise any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these flsh- tties by our own fishermen; and if so, in what manner, and to what iKteut annually ? Not very serious hinderance. 1-. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the Sskies of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, nud the ^imberof men employed upon them ? 1). Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen oft" the Atlantic wws of the Ijiitish North American Provinces, what proportion con- N of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iu-shore fish- res! ^ 11. For what description offish do American fishermen pursue the «ore fishei ies ? Mackerel chiefly. Ij' If you state that tlie in-shore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly pt mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within 11)0 F 'M tf i km i^w k 3026 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. the in-sbore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of tlio in 8boif> limits ? I think a very small portion of the catch, the past fittoeu vens has been take within the limits. If our fishermen had felt secure ami free to fish always when three miles from land, tbeir catch from vein to year would not have been much impaired. Tbe trouble niainly Ija's l)etiii a fear to fish witbin sight of land, whenever any Cutters were in sicjit' knowing there was no redress when taken, hero lies the great siKrHie' which our fishermen have had to bear in the past. ^ IG. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by Ameiicaii fishermen off the coasts of British America taken outside the in-sljoie limits ; and in tbe summer season especially, are not macicerel jieiierally found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not witlihi shore ' Yes. 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American lishi-niuMi to fish in Colonial iu-sbore waters i I think it has worke■' it is taken within three miles of the shore, auil what is the auUi i. v . > to tbe United States, or to the British I'rov- inces, as the cu^e uiii.> be, to take such bait within three niilcsof tin,' shore? What ve call Fogies, principally take on our coast, cannot state quantity . - 'ne 20. Please statt ti> "< enil ji.iss of fisheries carried on from your Statej or district, tbe costof fittii)<', -'lu quipping, furnishing, and mamiinjia vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of tlif cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail tbe elements whicli go t( make up tbe cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of retuniiiij to the home port. It cost about -•^52000. dollars to fit for a three uioiitl cod fish Trip, and 81500. dollars ior a three months mackerel trip, tlii^ includes no wages or shares for tbe crew. 21. "When you have fully answered question 20, ])lcase answer tii< same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and niamit from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, sola as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference tween tbe cost of tbe Canadian and tbe cost of tbe Anu'rican vessel ij these resjieets, explain what tbe ditference is and the reason for ii Shoulld think they could save in fitting for the business at least :;3iie ct from our cost. Provisions, salt, cost of vessels, and all labor wlif hired is much less than ours 22. Are you acquainted, and for bow long, and in what capacity. wit the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Qneliec. Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which ottliel fisheries ? 25 years 23. What kind of fish frequent tbe waters of those coasts wliiei to be thrown open to American fishermen under tbe provisions oftl Treaty of AVasbington ? ^lackerel principally, other fish are litf sought for in tbe limits 24. Please state in detail the amount and tbe annual value (sav lii 1854; to 1872 inclusive) of tbe fisheries which are so to be thrown or to American fishermen; also the amount and the annual value oi catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles (list from the shore; please state these facts in detail. li.'filC i t For i'. and ll )" iiiarkj ,% IfyoJ ^'iti's on (il ini(|(>r ""•"lanniiij '^i if yoiT Wi and * fi'ee III .,. ■^■•ail "■'• I'iie of AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3027 25. Do American flsbermeii procure bait in the waters within three miles of tlic coast of the Dominion of Canada? If so, to what extent, and ffhiit is the vahie? Our Halibut Catcher often go in after fresh IJait but always buy it, which is a good thing for them 20! Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of tbe Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, anil vnrious articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries ? If so. in wliiit ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- ves- si-lsof the United States iu their neighborhood during the lishing sea- ion i Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value ot that advantage. The anionnt of supplies bought by our Fishermen ihiriii" tlie year must be quite large, while we had free fishing there, tliink'^it would be safe to say that the American fleet i>aid at : P. Ed Islaiul, Cansoe, Port Hood & Halifax 250,000 doUas per year for sup- jilicsof all kinds 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing- vessels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British North American Provinces, {ex(!luding Newfoundland), both without and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many ves- sels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the I.Diiinberof men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and wliat is the jjioportion, or probable proportion, iu your judgment, of the iiuoiuit of sucli catch taken within three miles of the British coast, 1 ami of tiie amount taken outside of the three-mile limit? L'S. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your Judgment, added to [tlieiirotitsot a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles !l the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it con- sist! A very siuall per centage of the fish will bo caught withiti the limits, still I think free fishing will add much to the value of the catch :".i. Do till' American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washing- ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to re- HK'kthoin, or to transshij) cargoes, which were not theirs before; if so, hliiUaie those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth an- Iwlly, iu the aggregate ? I think none of any value. We have had |initrouble in this respect of conseciuence oil. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are diimned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the IJiit' li North lAwieau Provinces as to the people of the IJnited States 1 i have no Iddiiljt of ir What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all Ifaiiptions which are annually shii>ped to the LTnitcil States ? Reports [ive these facts 3-, For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger pirt of the fat Iier- fin;, ami for all No. 1 salmon, does not; the United States afi'ord the inaiket. this is maiidy true [33, If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United ptcsou tisii and fish oil imported from Canada, which are to be made uiiiliH' tile provisions of tlie Treaty of Washington, please state N annually, and l)y classes, from I8ji to 1872, inclusive. |5|. Uyou know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada 'Ml and fish-oil imported from the United States, wliich are to bo [iJf free under the provisions of the said Treatjv, please state them " iilly, and by classes, from 18.")1 to 1872, inclusive. riie object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights iu ml ;"■ -iH :"i in- 4; ^^>#- H*f*..*» !»^'**.i4.<*W^»^ '•S' iiiilll 3028 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. respect of lisbing, and flsliermen, and fish, which were },Miuit((l to (iicir Britain by tlie Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just iiiuivalcnt for tlie rights in those re8i)ect8 which were granted by said Tical.v to thi- United States. If you know anytiiing bearing upon this siilijcct whid, you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please stati it as fully as if j-ou had been specially inquired of in respect ot it. J have no doubt that all the Provinces so far as the Fisliin;; interest Ims to do with it, will thrive and prosper, much better under the bee llshiur' dureing the ten years of llesciprosituty or free fishing, tliev pKispeiHi much better than they have since, this is their own testimony, as 1 have heard it from very many of them, njerchants as well as Fishcriiitu themselves. CIIAS C. PKTTLXdlLi, Custom liorsE, Salem. Subscribed & sworn before me this twentieth day of Juno 187.'}, CHAS. li. OdKLI. Collrctof No. l.j. f CONFIDENTIAL. I QUESTIONS POUNDEJ) STATES. KESPECTING TO TDE FISUEUIES TO !}}•: l'i;().| - ON BEUALE OF THE UNITl'l) 1. ^Vhat is your name and age, and in wlnit town and .State tloyou reside ? William H Nelson age 43. Plymouth Massachusetts 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acciuiiinted \vitli| the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-ttsheries, and the value of tlia catch of the different kinds of fish ? Have been engaged in tlie Cod'] fishery since 1851 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighboriiood wliij have also had the ojiportunity of obtaining similar inforniiUiun! It' so please give some such name. 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United Statesj known as the Treaty of W' ashington is hereto annexed. Will voii ei amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so fj have examined it. 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especial those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under til provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel Herrings & .Meij haden principally 0. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of tisli takd annually off the coast of your State from the years 1851 to 187:*,ii elusive ? If you can do this please do so ; and if not, please state whej that information can be procured. Mackerel fishery is carried on i Gloucester l*rovincetown Wellfieet Chatham Boston, Portland i\: utljj ports in Maine from which such information could be obtained 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value oftj American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian tisliciinj under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state tli(f in detail, showing the diftereut kinds of fish, and the value of each kiij I canuot. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually tak by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in tbe waW AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3029 ^H'llip coasts wliicli are to be thrown open to competition bytlie Treaty jt WiisiiiiiKt*'" • Cannot state but Gloucester should be able to give lliijiiiforiiiiition. 0, Do Ciiiiiulian fishermen procure bait or sujjplies in the waters of voiir State? and it' so, to what extent and value? liait is purchased ;^ soiit to their ports. 1(1, What's the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being able to procure bait, to land and «lry their nets, and to repack and euro tlidrlisli oil the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than ihateontaiiictl in the Treaty of Washington :' — The Menhaden Bait which are used piiiicipally for mackerel fisherman are taken wholly in Mass. iV Maine and are valuable, to what extent I cannot say. 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-shore fish- eries cause any detriment or Linderance to the profitable pursuit of these jslieiies hy our own fishermen; and if so, in what manner, and to what txteiit annually ? They will necessjirily diminish the catch of our fish- iiiiiHii as a large fleet is more destructive to schools of mackerel than jinalliT ones and any increase has that efl'ect. 12, What iiiiiiiber of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the lislierii's ot .votir State, and what are their tonnage and value, an«l the Biiiiilier of men employed upon them? I cannot say. :;. Of the lisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic iviastsof the IWitish North American Provinces, what proportion con- istsof the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in-shore tish- j ries! Mackerel fisherman are the only in shore fisherman and the num- i k Gloucester could determine as I am not engaged in it. U. For wiiat description of fish do American fishermen pursue the 1 ii OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3031 acciirrtcy the miinber of vessels so engapeJ as the Gov't can easily Ileteriuiiie tliat from C. Iloii.se returns. Gloncostcn" chietly is engaged ill what fisheries are prosecuted in those Waters and could furnish jiicli information. 2S, Wliat percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to tk profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles Hi tlie coast ; whence is such profit derived; and in what does it con- sist; It is of no value to any but mackerel fisherman 20. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washing- ion any vaUiable rights of laiuling to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack iliem,or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; if so, what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, ill the aggiegate ? The American flsheman consider themselves as sur- rendering more than they receive and gain no rights in drying and cur- ing tisli which they did not possess before 30. Is not tlie Treaty of VV^ishington, so far as the fishing clauses are concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British Xorth American Provinces as to the people of the United States ? More so 31. Wliat is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all iloseriptioMS which are annually shipped to the United States? I can- not stiite 3:'. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat her- liiij.', ami for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States afford the only miirket. It does the only market .j3. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United Slate on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to be made free muler the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state tliem annually, and by classes, from 1851 to 187-*, inclusive. I cannot. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada mlishand fish-oil imported from the United States, which are to be Mile free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them au- iiialiy, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. I do not. 35. The object of the.se inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in I lespect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Wasliington, are or are not a Just equivalent (or tlie rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject which yon have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state litasfiilly as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. As lliave before stated the value of in shore fisheries accrues to the benefit loi'tlie mackerel fisherman only, as the Codfishery is a deep sea fishery 1 isdieirty pursued on the Banks of Newfoundland, and the treaty jrtieb allows fish & oil from the Provinces to come in free of duty hmst seriously interfere with the value of our own catch in our own mar- Ufts as we cannot with increased cost of outfits «& vessels, compete wessfuUy with these fisherman. The mackerel fisheman feel that in I oping our coast to their fisherman in procuring Bait and in supplying rniarlcets with fresh fish and mackerel, which on our coast are supe- r ill quality, is surrenderinga greater value than any advantage which I 'lie treaty opens up to our fisherman in the Bay of s't Laurence. The Huantityof mackerel caught on our coast is much greater than that jeanghtou their coast and the price of mackerel of our coast catch will fomiuand usually 25 % per cent, more than that caught in Bay of st unrenee. The Fresh fish trade which has increased rapidly the past |w years and is now increasing by the opening up of Kail Communica- , "*»»'< t,. PH.. s • i^-.-ti'*: .! !« 1' : .: .•■-: It.- R« .',■*!; 51 •'■ % ■k>- i^:i m 1 '^ii*- ^m ti-if t"f?*4>'... *■'■' ' 3032 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. tiou is open to their Hshomaii by this trenty, and its vnhu' :iliiiit> j^ j,, iny opinion worth more to them tiian all the advantafj^ wc can receive back. The CoiUisheiy interest here and in the vicinity •vouM not w,!,. it in their jmwer snrrendor onr markets or oju-i them inti to tlicir tisii(.! man for all the rijjhts they confer conpled with the payiiu'iit ol j?,"!!!!),!)!)!) to them aa a compensation nnder the reciprocity treaty tlm lislurii s in the ports of Barrington «S: vicinity numbered some .'»(» vessels wiii,.), found a market for their tish in our ports since that time tlii'ir lishciits have declined in Barrington alone, to some 5 to (5 vessels only, and tlieir fisherman are pursuing the 'l)usiness in vessels from here and vicinitv. Some 12 entire crews coming from that section are employed in vessels hero this present season, the present treaty Will encourage' their lislieiies and deprive us of men necessary to man our vessels, which we obtain from I'rovinces. Yours respectfully W. II. NELSON COMMONWEALTU OF .^lASSACHUSETTS. County of rLYMouni Town of Tlv mouth Plymouth July 3, 1873 Then William H. Nelson personally appeared and made oath that the i statements by him made and signed, in the foregoing (hMuuiu'nt, Leieio annexed, are true according to his best knowledge «S: belief. Before mo (Seal.) ^ JNO. J. IIUSSKLL Xotnry Fuhlic within li-for said vountu— Xo. 16. I have been in the fishing business tor| [confidential, j QUESTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO HE PIIO. POUNDED TO ON BEHALF OF TUE UMTEDl STATES. 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do yon reside 1 Asa W. Small ; 33, Nantucket, Mass. 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with the American and Canadian Atlantic seaflsheries, and the value of the catch of the different kinds of tish ? twenty years. 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neigliboiliooJ who have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar inl'onnatioiilj If so, please give some such name. A. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and tlie United States, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will yon ev amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done tio! have examined the articles from 18 to 22. 5. What kinds of tish frequent the waters of your State, espeeiall those which are to be thrown op.en to the Canadian fishermen under thi provisions of the Treaty of Washington? Cod, Mackerel, lladdod. Pollock, Hake, Porgee, Blueflsh, Herring, Shad, Striped-Bass, Sea Bar & Halibut. 6. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish takei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3033 auiiually olV the coast of your Stnto from tlic yonrs l,sr>l to IST'J, iiiclii- sivt'I It' yoii (!an ilo this pUniso do so; iiiul if nut, ploiisu stiito wliorc tliiitinloiimitioii can bo prouurtHl. ;, Ii\voii are able to do so, will you stato tlio amount and value ot ,lif Aiiierit'iin lisherit'.s which are to lui thrown oprii to t'anadiaii tlsiu'r- uifii iiiidi'i' the provisions of the Treaty of WashiiiKtoii f Please state ilieiii ill detail, showing the ditl'uient kinds of lish, and the value of each kind. 8, What quantity and value of each kind of tlsh are annually taken In Caiiiuliun llshermen, ami what by American tishernuMi, in the waters iif ilie toasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty of Wasliington '! Janadiau llshermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of T, .>,o ? and if so, to what extent and value i They do not. 10, WLnt is the probable annual value to Canadian tlshermen in be- ;ii;'iible to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cine their fish on the coasts of your State, w ithout any other restriction liiiii that contained in the Treaty of Washington f 11. Will the admission of Canadian llshermen to our inshore fisheries I cause any detriment or hinderance to the protitable pursuit of these rLYMOurii ^1 ''*'*^f'*^** ^y "'"" "^^ " ttshermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to what ^^tjteiit annually. \V bat mimber of Canadian vessels and boats are ensapfed in the |i«lieri(,sof your State, and what are their tonnaye and value, and the iniiilier of men employed upon them ? Not any at present. l'>, Of the fisheries pursued by American tlshermen oft' the Atlantic [toasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion ciii- ii>toftbe deep-sea lisheries, and what proportion of the inshore lish- pries I U what description of tisli do American fishermen pursue the iu \i 'ies ! Cod, and Mackerel. ii state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly Ik iiiiickerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within litie iii-sbore limits, and what proportion is takou outside of the inshore riiiuits .' li), Is not much the lar^jer quantity of mackerel caufjht by American Itemen off the coasts of British America taken outside the in-shore pits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel gen- jtrally loiiiul on the Imnks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within Ike! The larger quantity are taken off shore. 1". Are colonial fishermen injured by permitting American tisherinen lofisli in Colonial in-shore waters ? I should say not. l'*. Are not more lish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- Ike, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which large f amities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone? Yes, — pat lias been my experience. 1''. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it princi- W taken ? Uow much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, Wwliat is the annual value to the United States, or to the British wviiicos, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of Niore? Torgee & Menhaden, principally taken from Long Island, ,'Uothecoast of :\[aine. U Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your Fe or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and puDiug a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length T'liecruise. State, as far as possible, iu detail the elements which go la ijij-ii-. **■''. ;'^j'' 3034 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. to make up the cost of taking aud delivering a full cargo and of retiiru. ing to the home port. 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, no m as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any dift'erence be tween the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, aud in what capacity with the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswiclj, Quebec, or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which oh these fisheries ? I am acquainted with the fisheries of Nova Scotia aud Prince Edwards' Island. 23. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts whicii are l to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of the j Treaty of W^ashington 1 Cod aud Mackerel. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from I 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown open to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of tlie catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant [ from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three! miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent, ( and what is the value ? They do not. 26. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports ofl the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions,] and various articles for the use of the men engaged iu the fisheries!! If so, in what ports, and to what extent? And, if that is the case, isiffl not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing vesi sels of the United States in their neighborhood during the tislimgl season ? Explain why it is so, aud estimate, if you can, the moneyvalnej of that advantage. 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States lis!iing| vessels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of tliq British North American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessel! are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the niiiiibej of men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are takeij there, what is the annr.il value of all the fish so caught, and wliati the proportion, or probable proportion, iu your judgment, of the amotiul of such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, aud of tli^ amount taken outside of the three-mile limit ? 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your jtulgmeut, added I the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine iiiilej of the coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what does itcoij sist ? Very little — or none 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washing ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to pack them, or to transship cargoes, which were net theirs before; itsJ what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth ad nually, in the aggregate ? They do not gain anything, as they do iij in these days cure fish or repack, but return home as soon as they their fares 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the flshiuff clauses aj concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the Bntif North American Provinces as to the people of the United States AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3035 stioiild say that the people of the British North American Provinces had tiie liest of us, by far- Si. Wliat is the amount and value of colonial carjjoes of lisli of all descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States? 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger i»art of the fat lierriiigr, aud for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States aft'ord the ouly market ? It does. ;i3. If yon know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United States on fish and fishoil imported from Canada, which are to be made free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state tlieiu annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 34. Jf you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada ODiishand tish-oil imported from the United States, which are to be made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them aDiiii«lly, and by classes from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in rosiiect of fishing, and rtshermen,and tish, which were granted to Great Biitaiu by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a ,just equivalent I for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to tlie United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject i \rliiili you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. ASA W SMALL Nantucket, as. June 10//*, 1873. Then personally appeared the above named Asa W. Small and made I oath to the truth of the foregoing statements by him signed, before me. T. C. DEFRIEZ Collector of Cnstom,s. No. 17. [CONFIDENTIAL.J IQUKSTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO- POUNDED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. 1. Wliat is your name and age, and in what town and State do you I reside? Cliarles E. Stnalley, aged 40, \ xTintnt-kP^ M iss lieiiben C. Kenney aged 5(j, ) -^-"^tuUvtt, M.iss. - What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with the jAuieriean and Canadian Atlantic sea-flsheries, and the value of the catch jofthe different kinds of fish ? Have followed the fishing business at Sea jiorjit'teeuyears. 3, Can .you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood who |liavealso had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ". If so, flease give some such name."^ ■1. A copy of the Treaty between Great Tiritain and the United States, jwowi, as the Treaty of SVashington, is hereto Jintiexed. Will you ex- jiniine articles IS to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so 1 We |Mye examined and read articles 18 to 22. inclusive. >>• What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially Iwse which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the Ifovisionsof the Treaty of Washington ? Cod, Mackerel, Halibut, Had- W. Herring, and Porgies. ^' tan you give a statement of the kinds and q^^nantities of fish taken m 1 r ■ ill 3030 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. annually off the coast of your State from tbe years 18.-»4 to 187" please state inclusive 1 If you can do this please do so ; and if not, where that information can be procured. 7. If you are able to do so, will yon state the amount and value of the American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Caiiiulimi Hsiier- men under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ". Please state them in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and the valuo of eiicli kind. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annuiUly taken by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters off" the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty of Washington ? 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of your State, and if so, to what extent and value ? Canadian tisherineii do not purchase bait or Supplies in our State, to any extent. 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to reiiack and cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other re- striction than that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? Tlie Vahie is nothing in our estimation. 11. Will the admission of CanadUin fishermen to our in sliore fisher- ies cause any detriment or hiuderance to the profitable pursuit of these fisheries by our own fishermen ; and if lo, in what manner, and to what extent annually I They will in thisw.^y; They can man tiieir Vessels with less expense, consequently they can undersell us, and by bringiiis; their fish to our market they will do so, as there are no duties on them, and the result will be, our markets will soon be glutted, and fisii mi/j low. 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in tliej fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and valuo, and tliej number of men employed upon them ? We do not know of any I Canadian Boats or Vessels engaged in the fisheries, in thiti IState. 13. Of the fisheries i)ursued bj'^ American fishermen off the Atlantioj coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion cdii-i sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the inshore tisli-j eries ? In our estimation, Two Thirds consists of Deep sea fisheries, amlj one third of Inshore fisheries. 14. For what descrintion of fish do American fishermen piirsne tlie| inshore fisheries? Mackerel, Cod, and Porgies, chiefiy Machrel 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly oij chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taktiq within the inshore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of tli in-shore limits ? ]More than two thirds of the Mackerel are taken (ih(w' of the inshore limits, — in our opinion. — 10. Is not much the larger (piantity of mackerel caught by AmericiiB fishermen off' the coasts of British America taken outside tlie in slim^ limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel geiierall found on the banks, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and not witidn slum W^e should say. The greater portion of Mackerel taken olt' the coasts o^ British America, would be outside the in shore limits, and in the Sun mer Season, Mackerel are generally found wide out on the Hanks 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by perntitting Aniericaii tisheriiiii to fish in Colonial inshore waters 'I We should say they are not injiuei^ but benefitted in a measure. 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when tishiug ij shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which larj AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3037 nl The Value fliiantities of bait are tbrown out, than when flsbitig alone? Should thiuk the Colonial fisbermen would be the Jjaiueis iu tbe end by having the mackerel baited up for them. 111. What is tbe best bait for tbe mackerel, and where is it principally takeii? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and ;lliatistbe annual value to tbe United States, or to tbe British Trov- inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of tbe shore f Tbe Porgie is considered tbe best bait for the Mackerel, is taken all along tbe Shores & liivers, Long Island Sound, Connecticut lliver, Pleasant Bay, Boston Bay, off Portsmouth, Portland, and all along tbe Eastern Shore. 20. Please state as to eacb class of fisheries carried on from your State or district, tbe cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and nian- iiiug a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by tbe average length of tlieCTiiise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements wbicli go to make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to tbe home port. For a Vessel of Seventy tons, manned by 10 men for atrip of 3 months to the Banks for Cod Fish V,<5p1 8700,00 pwhioiis 8'i™'- Salt 8:350 K"0. 00 B*itSm Dories 8^00 400.00 Fi4 lines -Leails .850. Sundries $100 J.")0, 00 Sleus Wigcs 1,700.00 Total '. 8:5,*:90.0O 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer tbe satiie (juestious as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far as YOU are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference be- 1 tneeu the cost of tbe Canadian and tbe cost of tbe American vessel in i tliese respects, explain what tbe difference is and the reason for it. 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, witb [ ilie fisheries on tbe coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, or I Prince Edward Island, or witb either, and if either, witb which of these islieries ! 23. What kind of lisb frequent tbe waters of those coasts which are I to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of tbe I Treaty of Washington ? 24. Plea,se state in detail tbe amount and tbe annual value (say from iWlto 1372 inclusive) of tbe fisheries which are so to be thrown open to Autericau fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the catch jiDthe adjacent waters wbicb are more than three miles distant from tbe ike; please state these facts in detail. 23. Do American fishermen procure bait in tbe waters within three liiiilesof tbe coast of tbe Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent, Iwhat is tbe value? They do procure bait within 3 miles of tbe I above coast. 'li Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of llio Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, jjail various articles for the use of tbe men engaged in the fisheries i If jSMuwhat ports, and to what extent .' And, if that is the case, is it an advantage to the ports of tbe Dominion to have tbe fishing- jvesselsof tbe United States in their neighborhood during tbe fishing pasou! Explain why it is so, and estimate if you can, the money- pine of that advantage. American fishermen do purchase supplies I'och as Salt, Bait, Ice, Barrels, and provisions &c in tbe Ports of the Itominiou of Canada. 4 sf-"'' ■■»■ ' . »■ ~ M ■i|*,: i. ..<■ , r,r ^ *:. 3038 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States flsbiiig. vessels yearly engage in the •fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the Brit ish >^orth American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) botU without and within the three-mile limit? If so, state how many vessels nreso engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of meu employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of tish are taken there what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro' portion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken outside of the three mile limit ? 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles - of the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it cou sist? 29. Do the American fishermeu gain under the Treaty of Washiuytou any valuable rights of lauding to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, wliat are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, in the aggregate ? Do not consider it is any advantage to Americaii fishermen, to dry nets or cure fish in any way, as by so doing, they in- jure themselves by the detention of getting their cargoes to niaiket. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are 1 concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North | American Provinces as to the people of the United States .' More ben- eficial to the people of the Provinces than to the people of thu Uiiiteii States. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of tish of all I descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States :' 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger ]>arr of the fat I herring, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States afford tiief only market. It does. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to tlie Liii' ted States on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to liei made free nnder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please] state them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually piid in Canadiij on tish and fish-oil imported from the United States, wiiich are to bej made free under the provisions of the said treaty, please state them au-j nually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the ri},'hts in respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted toUroalj Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent for the rights in those respects which were granted by said treaty to tlia United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject-wliiclu you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please stat^ it as fully as if you had been specially mcjuired of in respect of it. CHAlfLES. E. SMALLKV REUBEN C KEX>"i:V Nantucket, ss. June 9th, 1873. Then personally appeared the above naruLul Charles E. Sin illey. ani Reuben C. Kenney and made oath to the truth of the statements al)iiv| signed by them — before me T. C. DEFRIKZ. Collector of CitstoiuK. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3039 No. 18. [CONFIDENTIAL.] QUESTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO- POCXDED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. 1. Wbat is yonr name and age, ami in what town and State do','} ou reside f Elisha Crowell ; Brooklyn. New-York. 59 Years 2. What opportnnities have yon had for becoming acqnaiuted with tlieAinericau and Canadian Atlantic seaflsheries, and the value of the catch of tlie dittereiit kinds of flsh ? Twenty five j'ears experience in catcbiiig, buying and selling flsh rr;;ti'^«»?!il|N< 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood iflio have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? Ifso, please give some such name. Caleb Nickerson, Esq. Brooklyn. New York. I A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, bowl) as tiie Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- ainiue articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so? 1 ave. J. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially liose which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the I provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel. Herring. Codfish. Haddock. Hake. Bass. Shad. Porgies. Menhadden. Spanish Macker Eels ILofeters. Bluetish. Sword & Week flsh 6. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities oi fish taken iiiiiimlly otf the coast of your State from the years 1851 to 1872, iuclu- isivef If you can do this please do so; and if not, please state where tliat iiilormation can be procured. Mackerel Cndrish Bliiefish Lobsters. Porjries. 75.00(1 Harrels. 70.000 Quintals. 7:).0(»0 libls. JO.OOO Hbls. TjO.OOO BbLs. Menhaden. Haddock. All other kind nOO.OOO IJbls. |.'>.000 BbLs. 300.000 Annually. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the lAuiiiicau lislieries which are to be thrown open to Canadian fishermen limder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state them |iii detail, allowing tbe ditterent kinds of flsh, and the value of each kind. 1 estimate from waters in and adjacent to this state (N Y.) about Nine 5i Million dollars in Mackerel alone. All other Kinds of Fish about jleii (10) Million dollars. ^^. What (jnantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken jH'aiiadiiiu fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters N the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty |i'i Washington ? Have no estimate. bo Canadian fishermen procure bait or su)>plies in the waters of |!W State.' and if so, to what extent and value ! Do not take bait jitoinour waters, but purchase from the United States. 1 1". What is the probable annual value to Canadian fi,>hernien in be- i"? able to procure bait, to laud and dry their nets, and to repack and |Ue their tisli ou the coasts of your State, without any other restriction pu that contained in the Treaty of Washington ". About an equal laliio, 11' Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fisher- e.xcept the priviledge of procuring bait from the United States. '■'^^?.,r' Si ■ 5ai 'id **- ..■si'.,., '':^;?*i fj.' t>^f ii'il .sr'S^n!.^ ' T.,fi>-^ f 3040 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ies cause atiy detriment r liiutlerfince to the profitable pnrsuif of tbese iislieries by onr own fisheroien ; ami if so, in what manner, ami to what extent annually ? It will probably be a detriment to our Markets to the amount of Twohundred Millions. 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are on^'afjeil in the fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, iiiul the number of men employed upon them ? Xone. 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen oil' the Atlantic coasts of the British North American Provinces, what i)roporti(m con. sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iiislioie tish cries ? fully Nine tenths {-^^j) consist of deep sea fisheries ; about one tenth (-,'y) in shore fisheries 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen piusue the in shore fisheries? Mackerel & Herring 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is tajjeu i within the inshore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the] in-shore limits ? Nine tenths otf shore. (^",7) One tenth in shore. (|ij 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American ) fishermen off the coasts of British America taken outside tlie iu shore limits ; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel senerallyj found on tiie banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not withiiij shore ? Yes. a very iargc' proportion caught outside, say ,",; 17. Are Colonic! fishermen injured by i)ermitting American lisheruieuf to fish in Colonial in-shore waters ? No. 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when tisliing iuj shore, alongside a fteet of American fishing- vessels, from which iargej quantities of bait nre thrown but, than when fishing alone / Yes. 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it piincipallyl taken ? How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British Prov-j inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of tliej shore? Menhaden taken from American waters all in shore. FiftyJ Thousand dollars benefit to the British Provinces, annually — 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your Stat^ or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and manuiugi vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average lengthof thecruise State, as far as possible, iu detail the elements which goto make nptbd cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to the hom^ port. Menhaden, Mackerel, Codfish, Herring, Blueflsh, Lobsters, Tori gies, Haddock Hake, Halibut, Swordfish & Weekflsh Cost of Shooner| $12,000 Fitting, equipping & furnishing for a cruise of thirty days lj$3,000 , 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer tlij same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manue from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so faj as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference betwt the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel iii tlieaj respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. Estimata expense of Canadian Vessels one half of the same class of vessel biiiltij the United States, on account of the inferior Materials »S: Workiuausliii also cheapness of Labor , f 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacitl with the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brnnswicii, QiJ bee, or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with wlnf AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3041 of these fisheries ? I am — for Twenty five years — liaving fished on their coasts for codfish & maclierel. 23. What liind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are to'be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel, Herring, & Lobsters. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from l8a4tolJ'72 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown open toAnieiicau fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the tateb in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant irom the shore ; please state these facts in detail. No answer. See (|fle9tioii, 27. 25. Do American fisliermen [)rocure bait in the waters within three miles of tlie coast of the Dominion of Canada i If so, to what extent, and what is the value ? Do not procure any bait, not plenty in Oana- im waters. 2G, Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of i the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries ? 1 If so, in what ports, and to what extent? And, if that is the case, is t not an advantage to tlie ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- Ivesselsof the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing heasou! Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money- due of tliat advantage. They do at Halifax and in the ports of the straits of Canso & Prince Edward Islands. And it is a great advantage 10 the Dominion ports to have American vessels on account of trade & Itrafic, 2i. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing-ves- Isfls yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British Ml American Provinces, (excludingNewfoundland,) both without and liithiu the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels are so en- |{af[ed, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men Iwiployed animally on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, jihat is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- Ijiortiou, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amount of ImIi catch taken within three miles of the JBritish coast, and of the pouut taken outside of the three mile limit '? About one hundred and pysail of Schooners. Valued at one Million five hundred thousand dol- llats; Employing Fifteen hundred men — catching Mackerel pnd codfish iTaWat seven hundred thousand dollars, one tenth (Jg) within three lies and nine tenths {f^) outside the three mile limit I 'li What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the prolitsof a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of tie coast; wlience is such profit derived; and in what does it consist? ilwiitone tenth (j\j) when the fish lay in shore and cannot be taken off itore. ■I Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washing- N any valuable rights of lauding to dry nets and cure fish, or to re- Wkthem, or to transship cargoes, which v.^ere not theirs before ; if so, ptare those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth an- Mally, iu the aggregate I I do not consider it of any value to American periueii 1 3". Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are Hfenied, more, or quite as, beneficial to the i)eople of the British North meriian provinces as to the people of the United States '? It is more Mtto the Provinces, than the United states. 131. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all 191 F I ... .,.-mym \ 'mm^ 1^'' &>i rr^ ■:i%^ '■■ r ''Els' «|i'i •n't] 3042 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. IT descriptions wbich are annually shipped to the United States? U^f,, to statistics. 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larpjer i)art of tliefat herring, and for all No. 1 sfilmon, does not the United States att'onl tiie only market. Yes, it is the only market 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to tlip United States on fish and fishoil imported from Canada, wliicli are to be made free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washi.iffton, please state them annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872 inclusive. Reier to Statistics in possession of the government. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on fish and fishoil imported from the United States, which are to In; made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state tlum annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. I do not know of any tish or tish oil being shipped to Canada. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rii^hts in respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to| the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this sulljeei ■which you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please] state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it, I consider the Treaty of more value to the British Provinces than toi the United States for the following reasons ; First — for the priviledge oi flsbiugou the coast of the United States. Second. — the marketing auif shii)ping their fish free. Third — the furnishing our fishing vessels witl( supplies. ELISHA CEOWELL State of New York ) City and County of New York ) Elisha Crowell, merchant of the City of New York, being duly svroraj deposes and says, that the answers made by him to the several iiitei rogatories as above, have been duly considered by him, and that tli| same are based on his knowledge and experience of the flsberies, aa that the subject matter therein contained is true to his best kuowledgj and belief so far as the same can be ascertained. ELISHA CROWELL I Sworn before me This 18 day of June 1873 A. M. SARES Notary Public. No. 19. (Seal.) [CONFIDENTIAL.] QUESTIONS POUNDED STATES. RESPECTING THE TO ON FISHERIES BEHALF OF TO BE PE THE UMTa 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do] reside? Caleb Nickerson, 48 years, Brooklyn, New York, 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of J catch of the different kinds of fish 1 Twenty years experience iu catj ing, buying and selling fish. . 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborii^ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3043 who hare also had the opportunity of obtaiuin;; siinihir information? If so, please give some such name. Elisha Crowell Esq. Brooklyn, New York, I A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United Slates, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- aiiijiie articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so ? I liiive j, What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially llinsewhicli are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the pruvisioiiH of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel, Herring, C()dlish, Oaildoek, Hake, Bass, Shad, Porgies, Menhaden, Spanish Mackerel, Etls, Lobsters, Blue fish, Sword and Week fish. il, Can you give a statement of the kinds and (piantities of fish takeu aniiiially off the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, iu- cliisive f If you can do this please do so ; and if not, please state where that iuformation can be procured. Menhaden all other kinds nOO.OOO Bbls :500,0()0 " Annually. (The above estimate inchides both/rc»/t & suit iish) hijfkerel, 75,000 Barrels [HMh 70,000 Quintals etish, 75,000 Bbls lUbslers, 10,000 " Pome,, 50,000 " iHAck, 15,000 " If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the I American fisheries which are to be thrown oi)en to Canadian fishermen DDder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state them in detail, showing the dittereut kinds of fish, and the value of each kind. About Seven Million dollars in Mackerel alone. All other kinds of fish, I one hundred and Twenty five Million dollars. 8. What quantity and value of each kind of flsh are annually takeu IkCanadiau fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters loff the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty I of Washington ? 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of jjonr State ? and if so, to what extent and value i Do not take bait from ! waters, but purchase from the United States ; but can avail them- JKkesof this privilege under the treaty. y. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in be- lingable to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and ItDre their flsh on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction libithat contained in the Treaty of Washington ? About an equal JTaliie, except the privilege of procuring bait from the United States. 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in shore fisheries jtaiise any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these Ifelimes by our own fishermen ; and it so, in what manner, and to what pent annually ? It will. Probably a detriment to our markets to the nouiit of Two Hundred Millions. 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the Islieries of your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the |iiiiiiber of men employed upon them ? None 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic ^lastsof the British North American Provinces, what proportion con- istsof the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iu-shore rtsh- lifs! fully nine tenths (^^) consist of deep sea fisheries, about one l«ith(Jj) inshore fisheries i U. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the in- K fisheries ? Mackerel & Herring 101^^ ^■'j*^? •;.;.:. ,,«.,^ '•'■■"'(R*-' ■•,.,.; i-r i'm'm: sff^«^f;j .«fSf^i.'»r?r 3044 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or cliipflr for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is takuii within the in-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the iii-shoro » limits? Nine tenths (^^) offshore. One tenth (^^5) on shore. 10. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel cau{,'lit l)y Ainericanl fishermen on the coasts of British America taken outside tlie iii sliorel limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel ^retierallvj found on the banks, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and nut witliin .shore f] Yes. A very large proportion caught outside I 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermeal to fish in Colonial in-sliore waters if No. 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in.1 shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing- vessels, from wliich laixa quantities of bait are tlirowu out, than when fishing alone ? Yes. 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where it is principally taken ? How much of it is taken within three miles of the .shore, aii4 what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British ProvJ inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of thj shore? Menhaden — taken from American waters — all in shore. Fitti thousand dollars benefit to the British provinces. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your Stat or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, furnishing, and maniiin;'! vessel for carrying it on, estinjating it by the average length of cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the elements which „oi make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to the home port. Menhaden, Mackerel, Codfish, Herring, Blue fish Lobsters, Porgies, Haddock, Hake, Halibut, Sword & Week lish. CosI of Schooner $12,000 Fitting, equipping, & furnishing for a crui.se Thirty days, or more $0,000 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer thj same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and uiaiine from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, .so faj as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any difference 1)( tween the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel i| these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. timated expense of Canadian Vessel, one half of the .same kind ordiu of VeSwsel built in the United States. On account of the inferior matj rials and workmanship, also cheapness of labor. 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, wilj the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec,! Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of tliei fisheries? I am, for Twenty years having fished ou their Coasts fij Codfish & Mackerel. 23. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts whicliaj to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provi.sions of t|[ Treaty of Washington ? Codfish, Mackerel, Herring, Lobster. 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (sayfroj 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown op to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of tl catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distr from the shore; please state these facts in detail. Uncertain as to(' rect figures. Question 27 seems to embrace some of the informatij sought. J 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters witliiu tlin miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what exte| AWARD OP THE PISHEUY COMMISSION. 3045 can fisbermenl jDd what i8 the value ? Do not procure any bait. The kind used are DOtfouutl in sufBcient nunabers in Canadian Waters. ■jtl, Do not the American tisliornien purchase sujjplies in the porta of tbe Dominion of Canada, inchuliiij; bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, jDil various articles for the use of the nieu engaged in the Jisheries 1 llso, ill what ports, and to wliat extent ? And, if tliat is the case, is it Botaiiiulvantage to tlie ports of the Dominion to have tlie flshin{;;-ves- sflM)!' tiie United States in their neighborhood during the tlshing sea- son! Explain whj' it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value of llial advantage. They do at Halifax, and in the ports of tlie Straits Lil'ansoand Prince Edwards Island, and it is a great advantage to tlio Doniiuiou ports to have American Vessels, on account of trade and 1 mitic. 21, Have you any knowledge of how many United States lishing-ves- Uls yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the British Wh American I'rovinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without jadffitliiu the three mile limit? If so, state how many vessels are so lengaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is tiie number of meu jmiployed annually on such vessels, what sorts of lish are taken there, liliatisthe annual value of all the fish so caughc, and what is the pro- Ipordon, or probable proportion, in your Judgment, of the amount of Inch catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the Iwonnt taken outside of the three-mile limit ? About One hundred p fifty sail of Schooners. Valued at one million five hundred thous- luddollars; Employing Fiteeu hundred men. Catching Mackerel and ICodfisb, valued at seven hundred thousand dollars, one tenth ( j'„ ) within [tliree miles limit, and nine-tenths (y^g) out side the three mile limits. 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in j'our judgment, added to llieprotits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles Idttlie coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it consist ? lAtioatoiie tenth (J^) when the fish lay in shore and cannot be taken off liliore. 20. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington Bjviiluable rights of lauding to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack m, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; if so, what ethose rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, 1 the aggregate! I do not consider it of any value to American fish- nan. iSd. Isuot the Treaty of Washington, so far the fishing clauses are pcenied, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North liericau Provinces as to the people of the United States 1 It is more Hfii to the Provinces than to the United States. [31, What is tiie amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all wiptious which are annually shipped to the United States ' I lttii|iate. V Wii Iki-reLs Mackerel valued at $1, 000000 'VW " Herring " "... 500,000 C'"** Quintals CodHsh " " :J00, 000 I"™ " Hake «fc Haddock " " 100,000 l"* Bbls. fishoil " " KiO.OOO itoluo.ooo " Alewives at $44- per Bbl. say 300,000 ptierkindsoffish ". oO.OdO Total ,§2,410,000 '"• For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat her- I and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States afford the only iiket. " • - - Yes, it is the only market. ?ji I 1^ III It^: mi ■'■ -"^l^ 3046 AWARD OP THE FI8I1P:RY COMMISSION. 3'.\, If you know wliiit iuiiomit of dnticH is iinniiiilly ])ai(l to tli<> UnitiM] States oil tisli and ilsli-oil iinitoited tVoiii Canada, wlii(;li aif to lii>iit:ii|i> free under tlie provisions of the Treaty of Washington, plcusc srmi; tbem annually, and by classes, from 1H.'>1 to 18711, ineliisive. The Statist tieal department of the (iovernment ean, periiaps, answer tins. I (.ai, only intimate based on answer to question 31, to wit: Say on Mackerel lii'iid, (mi) I Cod Ill), mil) Herriu}-- .-.d. mA Haddock lio. iiih)| Fish oil ;iL',iH)()| Aggregate ;}(1l',(h«)| 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Ciiiiiidiioiii fish and tlsh-oil imported from the United States, which arc to lictiiiiiiJ free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state tliciii iiiiiiiiiillyj and by classes, from 18;'54 to 1872 inclusive. I do not know ot any lis J or flsh oil being shipped to Canada. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether tlio ri},'lits i respect of fishing, and lishermen, and tish which were granted (odivad Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just 0(|iiiviil(ii^ for the rights in those respects whicli were granted by said Troat.v to the United States. If you kiu)w anything bearing upon tills siiliitcl which you have not already stated in reply to previous questi()ii.s,i)k'iisq state it as fully as if you had been specially inquire also had tlui op|)oi'tnnity of obtaining' siniilai' information? [I , (I, please ^ivo some siieh name. .Folin I'ew »S: iiundreds of ollieis if rfi|iiii't'(i. I A copy of tlie treaty between (ireat Britain and tiio L'nited States, known lus tlio Treaty of VVashinj,'ton, is hereto annexed. Will yon ex- jiiiiiie articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state tliat yon have (h)ne so .' [ liavi'. j. What kinds of tlsii frefiuent the waters of yonr State, es|)ncially iliiisf which are to be thrown open to tiie Canadian tlsheinien under tho priKisioiis of tho Treaty of Washiiifjton? Mackoiel, Halibut Ctidllsh, Pollock, Make, Menhaden, and many otiier kinds. 0. Can you fjive a statenuMit of the kinds and (juantities of lish taken niiuiillytitV the coast of your State from theyeass l.sr»l to 1.S72, iiuilusivo? 11 you can do this please do so; aiul if not, please state where that in- formation can be procured. Would refer to the (}«nl Insi)ector's report 01 the annual catch of mackerel. One hundred (I2(),(t0l)) and twenty iliinisand bbls annually I should judj>'e to bo about an average catch lata oil' oiu- own coast most of which are caught insi«le of three miles I Iroiu tlic coast. 1, It' you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the I American fisheries which are to bo thrown oi)en to Canadian fishermen uliT the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? IMoaso state theiu I 111 detail, showing the ditt'erent kin'!iUitbin the three-mile limit? If so, state how many vessels are so m?,Hl what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men Itiiipioyed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, jMisthe annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- jNon, or probable i)roportion, in your judgment, of the aujouut of '"''!'.atch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the Itouut taken outside of the th.-ee-mile limit J I should judge about |*Jtii liui.dred and fifty sail, valued as near as I can judge at |5'-i(Hi,00(».) seven millioii five hurulred thousand. Each vessel will jwerago twelve men. Principal fish caught are Mackeral, Cod, Halibut, 3050 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. and Herring. Annual value of flsli caught, one and tliree-qu.iitonnii. lion dollars. Value of flsh taken inside of three miles about .sixty thou sand dollars. 2S. What percentage of value, if any, is, in .vour judgineiif, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within tiiroe iiiarinc mW^.^ of the coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what docs it niu. sist ? I do not regard it of any value as far as profit is (concerned. Tht only benefit to be derived is freedom of Ports anil frec^ from aniiovaini' 29. Do the American fishermen gain nnder the Treaty of Wasliinoton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to n'oack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs Ijefore; it so, wliat are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth aniinallv in the aggregate ? The value of the above privileg's I regard as of voiv little iuj porta nee. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so fir as the fishing clauses are concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of tbe Uiitish North A»uerican Provinces as to the people of the United States ? Far ; more beneficial to British subjects. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of alii descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States' I do] not know the amount. 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the greater part of the \\\i\ herring, and lor all No. 1 salmon does not the United States all'ord tliel only market. It does nearly all. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United I States on fish and tish-oil imported from Canada, which are t(» be iniulej free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please statej them annually, and l)y classes, from 1S54 to 1872, inclusive. 1 do nnt| know the amount, but would refer to statistics 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada oul fish and tishoil imported from the United States. wlii(di are tobeniiKlel free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please stat.i them aiiur.allv, and by classes, fi'om 1854 to 1872, inclusive. I do not know. 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whetber tbe riglusiaj respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which were jii'ivuted to (rreafi Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a jnst equivalent t'otj the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to 'li United States. If you know anything bearing upon this sulijec.t which you have not already stated in reply to previous (juestioiis, please stnta it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in rt'si)ect of it. M« opinion is that England will derive more benefit from tbe treaty of Washington than tlie United States, and it is the opinion of nearl,\ all who are engaged in the fishing business, that we have already ;:Tantef more privileges to the subjects of Great Britain under the treaty than wj shall receive. The admission of British fish into our markets free i duty is a serious blow to the fishing interests of tlie United States. Old fishermen can supply our markets from the catch on our own coast aii(l the deep sea fisheries. Since the abrogation of the reciprocity treaty have ke] >t about one half of my vessels employed off our coast, and in ever] Instance they have lauded more fish and stocked more money than tlio^ that have been employed in the Bay pf St Lavrrence. When the Domiiiio Government authorized a system of licj; sing American tisheriner which they charged fifty cents per ton for the privilege of lishinjf wirliq the three-mile limit, freedom of their ports &c. — Our Captains daria the first year took licenses (part of them) and the benefit they derive from it they did not consider equal to the amount paid, and the nel AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3051 Tear when tbey went to the Bay the Doniiniou Government charged jjp dollar per ton for license. Our Captains declined taking licenses foiisWwiig; the price too much for the benefit to be derived HORATIO BABSO^ Glouckster June 2Ist 1873 Personally appeared H. Babson and acknowledged the above to be liistree act and deed and that these statements are true to the best of fo knowledge and belief. Before ine AAEON PAKSONS JP, I Charles P. Mitchell, Captain of the American fishing schooner Mo- (leiia B. Jeraulds have been engaged in fishing in the Bay of St Law- rence (luring the last fifteen years, Have read the questions and answers liereiii annexed and I fully concur in them all. CHARLES P. MITCHELL Gloucester June 21st 1873 I George W. Lane, Captain of the American fishing schooner Adelia E. HiirtwoU have been engaged in fishing in the Bay of St Lawrence iliiiini,' tlic last fifteen years, Have read the questions and answers teiu annexed and I fully concur iu them all. GEORGE W. LANE. Gloucester June 21st 1873 No. 21. [confidential.] QUESTIONS RESPECTING THE FISHERIES TO BE PRO- POUNDED TO ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. ■ 1, What is your name and age, and in what town aud State do you reside? Frank. W. Friend Gloucester, Mass '.', What opportunities have you lia1 to 1872, inclu- jsivel If you can do this please do so; and if not, please state where ' "t iuloruiatiou can be procured. I ,< '-f-ifc'f f^TWi Kg r-«« ii. 3052 AWAED OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 7. If yon are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of the American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian tisliermen under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state them in detail, showing the different kiuds of fish, and the value of each kiud^. 8. What quantity and value of each liind of fish are annually taken by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty of Washington ? Must be obtained from Statistics 9. Bo Canadian fisliermen procnre bait or supplies in the waters of your State ? and if so, to what extent and value? All their Pogie Bait is obtained from the IF. S. 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in beini' able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction thau that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-shore fisheries cause any detriment or hinderance to the profitable pursuit of these fisheries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to what extent annually ? Nothing except cheaper vessels and more competi- tion 12. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engajifed in the fisheries of your State, and what are th^ir tonnage and value, and the number of men employed upon them ? Uncertain 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlantic] coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion coiij sists of the deep sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iu-shore tisli- eries? Nearly all the Fishing untill September is ott" shore dtep sea j fishing 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the j in-shore fisheries ? Mackerel principally 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or j chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is takeul within the in-shore limits, and what proportion is taken outside of the in-shore limits ? Think J of the Mackerel caught before the loth of rfept j are caught outside the three-mile limit 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by Ainericaaj fishermen off the coasts of British America taken outside the iu-shorej limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally j found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not witbial shore? They are, Bank Bradly & Orphan being the best flsbiiigj grounds — in the summer season of Magdalen Island some Mackerel arej caught 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permittting American fisherj men to fish in Colonial inshore waters ? No In good seasons they arej much benefitted by American vessels fishing lu their Waters 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, wbeu fishing inj shore, alongsi. Do American fishermen procure bait in tlie waters within three wlcsof the coast of the Dominion of Canada ? If so, to what extent ; Wwhat is the value ? As a general thing, the American fishermen p- their hiiit of the Canadians. -'J. Do not tlie American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of lie Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, i)rovisions, id various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries if If |*.iu what ports, and to whatextent ; and, if that is the case, is it not I, I m -HI" I- . V . I ipp^iii 'I iy'\^'^*=M .■4'' K -■* li m^ 3054 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. an advantage to the ports of the dominion to have the sels of the United States in their neighborhood during fishiiigves- tl>«' lisliiii^l lie season ; explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, tlie nioneyval of that advantage. Yes; daring the Reciprocity Treaty in'aiiv the whole American Fleet refitted in Canso & Charlottetowii. In souui cases their Outfitts amounting to $1,500. 1 should think the Mackerel Fluet would average $000. 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States tisbinff. vessels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts oftlie British North American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both with. out and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of lish are takeu there, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the proportion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the aiiiountof such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken outside of the three-mile limit. About GGO Vessels are annually engaged they average about 60 tons worth 8G0 pr ton ^2,:)i)i)^. 000 employing 8,000 men. 28. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of the coast; whence is such profits derived; and in what does it con- sist ? In case we are deprived of Fishing at the mouths of the rivers, the Fishey would be entirely valueless — 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Wasiiingtoa any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure lisli, or to re|)ack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; it' so, what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth anmiallv, in the aggregate ? No, the Canadians are more benefitted than we are! 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fisiiing clauses are concerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British North American Provinces as to the people of the United States? It more benefit to the Canadians than to the American Fisherman 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of n descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States? See] report of U. S. Statistics 32. For all No. I and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fal herring, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States aft'ord tlii only market. No Fat Mackerel & Hering are shipped anywhere ex cept the U. S. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the Uni' ted States on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to l made free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, pleii> state them, annually and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Sei Report from Beaureou of Statistics 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Oaiiai on fish and fish-oil imported from the United States, which are to' made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them a nually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. The auiouut remission of Duties on Canadian Fish and the free market of the U for their Mackerel, & other Fish, Saving of Kxpenses of Cutters, Am the benefits of a large trade from the American Vessels, the admissioi to our coasts for jMenhaden & Mackerel, wdl aggregate an advaiitap of nearly $2,000,000 a year in gross amount— For this we obtain th| privilege of persuing a fishery, which after deducting expenses will ui nett to the American Fisherman $10,000 pr year — AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3055 35. The object of these inquiries is to ascertain vvlietlier the rights in i^^pfctof Hsiiinpf, and fishermen, and fish wliicli were gianted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a jnst equivalent for the rijilits in those respects wliich were granted by said Treaty to tliel'iiitcd States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject ,liicb yon liave not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it its fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. iviiat we desire most by the treaty of Washington is to have accorded tiiAiiiei'i'iii" Fishing Vessids, the same rights & privileges that have ever been accorded to Englisli Vessels in American Waters. If this courtesy is to be reckoned at the money value the Dominion may have jouie claim, but if the in shore fishery is the only concession, barring us tk liglit to fish at the mouths of the rivers, the U. States gets abso- lutely nothing for the privilege of l)uilding up a Foreign fishery at the expense of its own citizens. FRANK. W. FRIEXD SIDNEY FRIEND Of the firm of Sidney Eriend & Bro ' '";S "oTsSs"' \ ^^- G-o^-o^BTEU June 2Ut 1873 Subscribed and sworn to, Before me (Seal) No. 22. DAVID W. LOW Notary Public. QUESTIONS POUNDED STATES. [CONFIDENTIAL. ] RESPECTING THE TO ON FISHERIES TO BE PRO- BEHALF OF THE UNITED 1, What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you I reside ? George W. Plumer ; Aged 55 yrs : Gloucester Massachusetts 2, What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with I llie American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the catch of the different kinds of fish ? Have been familiar with the busi- ness for more than thirty years, and engaged in Mackerel — Herring and other fisheries fifteen years in American waters, also at Newfoundland, 1 Gulf of St Lawrence. P. E. Island &c &c 3, Can you give the names of otber persons in your neighborhood I rto have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? so, please give some such name. Andrew Leigh ton and hundreds of [others if required i A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States, Unowu as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- aniiue articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so. I 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially ose which are to be thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the ovisious of the Treaty of Washington ? Codfish. Halibut. Mackerel. fohagaii. Herring and Pollock are most valuable, but many other kinds jfotild be mentioned 6. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken l«Miually oil' the coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, inclu- jsivej If you (jan do this please do soj and if not, please state wheie ll 1 w'J If ' '('•I r!a«S5 >*;i«ss 3056 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. that iuformatiou can be procured. The kinds are those above named but the quautity aud value is so enormous tiiat a loujj tinn^ would be required to ascertain from Statistics the actual fact, or a correct esti- mate 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amonnt aiul viilueof I the American fisheries which are to be thrown open to (Jainuliaii tislur- men under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? I'lcase state them in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, and tho valueofi each kind. British vessels have had no occasion formerly to take lish in American Waters ex(!eptiiig to a limited extent, biit niider tiiei Treaty of Washington they will have every facility that American fish. erraen have nowor formerly enjoyed, and our markets being free will i afford them a decided advantage over us from the fact of ve.s8(^ls being | cheaper built and sailed than ours. I doubt if they ever improve these opportunities to any great extent, but if they choose to do so could I employ one thousand Sail of Vessels in American fisheries, as well as I Citizens of the United States 8. What quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken J bj' Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters! off the coasts which are to bo thrown open to competition by the Treaty] of Washington ? the quantity taken by Canadian and other Britishl fishermen is very large and of great value to them, but to Anuiricansofj little value comparatively from the fact that the British takes niostlyl Codfish and Herring — while Americans seldom fish for Cod within thivej miles of land and only have occasion to take Mackerel and Ueniiigsl within the limits of three miles 9. Do Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters o^ your State ? and if so, to what extent and value ? I have never knowc but one British vessel to take bait in the Waters of Massachusetts, biit| they do purchase Pohagan bait salted in considerable quantities 10. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being able to procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? This depends entirely on their improving these advantages as before stated, the privilege isiU valuable to them as to us, if they make the best of it 11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our in-shore fisheiie^ cause any detriment or hinderauce to the profitable pursuit of tlicsa fisheries by our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, aud to whai extent annually ? American fishermen can supply the Markets of tha United States with all fish caught in our waters, so that all landed b^ foreigners are so much taken from our own fishermen V.i. What number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged iu tlid fisheries of your States, and what are their tonnage and value, and tk^ number of men employed upon them ? None at this time Jane l^i) 13. Of the fisheries pursued by American fishermen off the Atlauti^ coasts of the British North American Provinces, what proportion ooa sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in shore tish eries? I am of the opinion that more than nine tenths (/„) ofalltisi caught by Americans in British waters are deep sea lish. or taken inoi'J than three miles from land. 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue tl» inshore fisheries? If at all only for Mackerel aud Herring 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursu ed wholly ( chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taka within the inshore limits, aud what proportion is taken outside ot tn AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3057 inshore limits? In answering this question I would state tliat having Mile enquiry of several competent Masters of vevssels engaged many reirs in MiUikerel fishing iu British waters, they all inform me that oulva very few times in many years have they ever seen an opportunity toiisli within three miles of the shore, the ditliculty has been they were Botallowed to fish outside the three miles limit. l)eing captured or an- Doved by IJritish Cruisers when live or six miles from land. ilie question constantly arising of limitation, and in my judgment tliesiiiiie troulde may come under the new Treaty of determining the Moiitbs of Jiivers, as Mackerel frequent the entrance of creeks and Sivers to obtain feed 16, Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by American jsliirmen oil the coasts of British America taken outside the in shore j limits; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel generally Ion the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not within shore ? I A large proportion are offshore, but late in Summer and Autumn they [re(|iient the mouths of IMvers and in sliore for feed n, Are Colonial fishermen injured l)y permitting American fishermen Itotisliin Colonial inshore waters? Only to a very limited extent IS, Are not moie lish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishing in- liliore, alongside a fleet of American fishing- vessels, from which large (jiiaiitities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ? The more M thrown, and tlie better the quality the more Mackerel are taken, and ll'anaiiians would have the advantage, our vessels using more bait l!i. What is the best bait fur the mackerel, and where is it principally Itaken? How much of it is taken within thr^e nnles of the shore, and liliiitLsthe annual value to the United States, or to the British Provin- lte-<,ns the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the shore ? lPiil)ai,'an called " Fogies " make the best bait for Mackerel — and are night on the New England Coast only — and usually within three Miles |if slime, my estimate of the value is (87.")0,000) three-fourths of a mil- lioinldllars. % I'lease state as to each class of fisheries carried on from your State luJistiiut, the cost of tilting out, equipping, furnishing and inaiiiiing a I'is.'iel lorcanying it on, estimating it by the average length of the crui.se. ISiate,as t'ai' as i)ossible, in detail the elements which go to make ui) tiie Iwiittakiii;^- and delivering a full cargo and of returning to the iiome The vessels are usually sailed on Shares, the men receiving one- Itik itroeeeils of Sales of lish, but 1 should estimate the expenses and minus of (.'vews wouUl average for the ^lackerel Season of about five Niths, three tliousand dollars (•*;!,000) to each vessel When you have fully answered question 20, please answer the mil' questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished and luaiiiied tlie Doniliiiou of Canada, including i'rince Edward Island, so far i.vuii are al)le to do so. If you state that there is any difiereiice be- teiithe cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel in If* respects, explain what the dill'erence is and the reason for it. laviiiM- lie,,,, engaged in the fishing business at P. E. Island I should lite the e.\[teii,se there at two thirds (p]) for each vessel of that of ifyi.'ssels, fur the reason that the vessels are built clieaper. the men ii'tl poorer and of course at a lower rate there rate of duties on iin- Wwl Articles are less, ■■■Are you actiuainted, and for how long, and in what capa(!ity, with n4icries on the coast of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, (juel>ec, or 'ice Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with whicii of these ^'"^^ • In the Capacity of Owner for about fifteen years in Mackerel 1!I2 F ..ir/fe3»*',; fe •. i;U +1 I ,4 "S-"] ,'«^i i ^'--^1 3058 AWAUD OF THE FISIIEUY COMMISSION. and FuihI Ilcriiiiy' mostly, at (iulf of St Lawrence NewfoiindliiiKl. Jlnv of ly iuul particnlarly P. K. Island '2',\. What kind of lish frequent tlie waters of those eoiists wliidi an' to be thrown o|)en to Aineri(!an lishcriuen uii,bU(l(KM) time luillidHs Sevi thousand men. lish taken are Cod, Mackerel, Halibut, Hake— lieniii IIaddo(;k — Pollock. tSrc &c Value of fish one and one half Million dollars and the amount taki within three miles of laud at fifty thousand dollars 28. What ]iercentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, addeili to the i)rotits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within tiuee mm miles of the coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what doesj consist"? Not over five per cent., and that from occasionally catcl Mackerel, and a small amount derived from taking Herrings 20. Do tlie American fishermen gain under th.e Treaty of Wasli ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure lish, or to] pack thoui, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; i^ what are those rights, and what do you estinuite them to be worrli^ iiually, in the aggregate? the value of drying Nets and niakiiij; lif are very small, and the right to land lish in transit we have always b^ or it has usually been douo -Vass AWAUD OF THE FI8IIEUY COMMISSION. ai59 I II [II, Is iKit the Tront.v of VVashinjjfoii, ho far ns tlio fisliiny clauses aro f,iiiiriiu'"l» '>'»»'<'» <'i' Miiitii as Itriiclicial to llic lu-opU! of the HiitisU .Niirlli AiiH'i'it'ii'' I'loviiurcs as to tht' pooph' of tho L'liitcil States .' more iiHii'ticiiil <" Hiitisli Subjects as all fat Mackerel and Ilerriii;;s, ami miisidtlicr Uiiids of fat lish, are ami nuist i)e marketed in the United Still. s iis tliey will not bear heat to West Indies :;i, What is the ainonnt and value of Oolonial earj-oes of lish of all ,l(S(ii|)tioiis\vhi(!h are annually shipped to the ITuited States '! Amount iiiikiiijrtii, hilt will be very lar;;ely increased with a free Market Z For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the lar^-cr part of the fat lifiriii;,', mid for all No. I salmon, does not the I'nited States allord tim iiiilv market. Fat lisli cannot be sent into hot climate as they nielt and lifioiiR' worthless, consecjuently the L". States consumes nearly all of il)iit(l('s(,'ription ;):i, If yoa know what amount of duties is annually i)aid to the riiiti'iKSlates on lish and fish-oil i:ii[K»rted Irom Canada, whieli are to I* made free under the provisions of the Treaty ol \Vashiiij>ton, please I jiaic tliciii annually, and by classes, from IS,") I to ]S7l!, imiliisive. Am ill possession of the Statistics to show a correct answer to this (| ues- jlmii, but do know that they will be lar;>ely increased provided the (Jan- jaiiiaiisaiid other British Subje(!ts improve their oppiirtunities, and in iioiiiii'ction I would say that the Canadian lisiieries are controlh'd |kiiijrr''at extent by jNlerchants of \Vealth from the Island o< .lersey, ilii'j liaviii;f very extensive establishments, and with ail facilities at (niiiiiiaiiil hire their Men and feed them as common wSailors. —thereby 'ifiilly rt'ihicing the Cost of Catchinji' lish, while American lishermen fiuii iiioi'o than double, and are fiMl and idothed better than the for- fii'iii'is, showing that if so disposed Uritish Subjects can supi)iy the ll'iiiU'il States with lish (iheaper than we can do it ourselves II. ll'yoii know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada leu lish and lish oil imi)orted from the United States, which are to be Imailf lice under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them |iiiiHiiilly, and by classes, from 1S,"»1 to 1S72, imtliisive. Unknown. 0). Tlie object of these iiKjuiries is to ascertain whether the ri;;hts liniisiiirt ol lishing, and lishermen, and lish, which were firaiited to IGiiiit lii'itain by the Treaty of NVashiiij^ton, are or are not a Just eijuiv- lali'iitfur the rights in those resi)ects which were <4'ranted by said Treaty jlo the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this siib- IjM which you have not already stated in reply to previous (piestions, ||ibso state it as fully as if yon had been specially inquiiod of in re- h\wt (il it. For reasons already given, and Many otherM that could jl'tiidvanced.iny oi)inion is that Great Britain has the be^st of the Treaty liitcaily. without any other Condition being granted, •^iitl leciiiig at liberty to express myself lully under this head, must |>ii}tliiit in my Judgement and in that of others engaged in the lish- Itehi'ie, a mistake of great importance has been made in ex(?liiding I'siioiutlio Mouths of IMvers as Mackerel which are our most valuable plilioijiuMit those waters where their natural feed is found and this piieqiu'iitly the case at points where the fresh and sea waters meet at IfeKivois Mouth, and this question or line should be clearly defined. putlier«ise the same trouble may arise iu drawing the line, as grew out «tlie three mile question G. W. PLUMER i t^LOfCESTER Mass .June 1873 ,.::l...!l**y ■..-• 3060 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Mass ) July 21, 1873 eshkx ss. i' PcrMoiiJilly a|)|H';in'il tlio said Geo W. Pliiiiicr iiiid iiiinlc oath tbiit these stiittMiU'iits are true to tlie liest of his iiiiowletlj^e and belief Before me. AAHON PAK'SONs. 'I. l\ No. L'3. [COM'IDENTIAL.J QUESTIONS KES!M:CTIN(r rOUNDEI) TO STATES. THE - ON rrsiiEUiEs TO wv. i-ijo. BEIIALE OF TlliC UMTLD 1. What is your name ami age, and in what town and St'itt* do yon reside ? Harvey Knowlton & Edward A. Horton (Jloncestcr Mass/ 2. What opportunities have you liad for beeominj,' a(,i|iiaiiite)l with the American and Canadian Atlantic sea fisheries, and tlie vahie ot ilic catch of the different kinds of fish ? Have been personally enjfaj^ed ;is j practical Fishermen twenty two years. Fitted and owned vessels sevei years We now fit out eifjfht vessels 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neiglilxirliond who! have also Imd the oi)portunity of obtaining similar iMi'oiinatioii .' ll sn, j please give some such name. 4. A copy of the treaty between Great I»ritain and the United States,, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will vmij examine articles IS to 'J2 inclusive, and state that you have done so .' \Vo| have. 5. What kinds of fish frciiuent the waters of your State, cspeciallyj those which are to be thrown o|)en to the Canadian lisliermeii uihIitJ the provisions of the Treaty of Washington? Mackerel Codlisli I'ul. lock !Menhaden G. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of tisli takciij annually off the (!oast of your State from the years ISf)! to ISTH, iiicliij sive I If you can do this jtlease do so; and if not, jtlease state wlicra that inforniafion can be procured. The rei)orts of the Inspector (ie!io| Fish t'oi' the State of .Massaciinsetts comi)iises the most acciuate state nients. Think about LM)0,(IUO Ubls of 3Iackerel per year is a lair averaj;^ for Mass vessels 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value the American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Ciiiiadiaii liolicn men under the jirovisions of the Treaty of "Washington I Tleaso statj them in detail, showing the different kinds of fish, aiul the value ot'eaci kind. We consider the Mackerel fishery on our own coast as valualilctf that on the British coast, the Codtishery in either case is not veiyvnlij able The real difference is in the tact that the provincial Fislieiinfl never have had the enteri)rise to avail themselves to any great oxti'l of the benefits of this fishery 8. What (luantity and value of each kind of fish are annually tali by Canadian fishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the \yatel off the coasts which aie to be thrown open to competition l»y tiioTieay of "Washington .' If during reciprocity is meant, (within tliivo niili> the shore) our vessels took about 1*0000 libls :\rackerel in the lH»it sons Our Ma(;kerel and IMeuhadeu fishery is valuable to the Caiiadiaj if they use them AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3061 UK UNliKll II, Do CiiiiiHliaii llsln'i'mon pnxjuro bait or Hunplies in tlio watora of vour Statu .' ami if ho, to wliat oxteiit and value ', Tlicy Imy Meiiliadnii oriio^'ic Imit t'oi- Mackoivl from tlio Americans Tln»> Moiiliadeii lisliery is piiri'ly American. None liavo evor beou known to fieqiieiit British 'vaters III, Wliat i>i the probable annual valne to Canadian (i.sheiMnen in be- iii;';ilile to pi'otmre bait, to land and dry tlieir nets, and to repack and diivtlicii' lisli on the coasts of your State, without any otiier restriction tliaii tliiit cniitained in the Treaty of \\'ashin;;'to!r? Tiiat en(ls en- tiithoii tlieir own enterprise They have never yet done niueli more ihaii lisii (it their own coasts. II. Will the admission of Canadian lishermen to our inshort; lisheries ciiiscaiiy detriment or hinderance to the prolitable pursuit of these lish- eiusli,v (»in'(>wn lishermen; and if so, in what manner, and to what ex- uiit iimmally .' No Yl. Wliiit nuiid)er of Canadian vesnels and boats are eiif;ii,<;ed in the tsherics ol your State, and what are their tonnaj,'e and value, and the wimlioi' of men employed u|)on them J We have s(hmi some few of their vtssflsoii (Mir coasts for Mackerel .lay LM» vessels 2."»() men 13. Of the lisheries pursued by American lislu^rmen oil" the Atlantic coasts of tiie liritish North American TroviiKres, what proportion coii- ^^ >i>tsut' tiie deep-sea lisheries, and what proportion of tlie in-shoro lish- ohborlieotl wlio ^| wies I ; of the Fisheries are deep .sea lisheries At present all the Cod lUlaliliiit are eaujjht on the Grand, Brown iS: (leor<,jes Hanks 14. For what description of fish do American lishermen pursue the 1 iiisliore fisheries if Almost entirely tor Mackerel If you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly orchielly I kn iimckerel, [)lease state what proportion of maokenU is taken within ilie iiislion! liniit.s, and what proportion is taken outside of tlie in-slioro' limits! Durin;: the latter part of the season Mackerel tend in shore and Uaboiitf) weeks the Hshing- is better in shore On a basis of ;5(»i)0l)0 llJlils, iis the whole sea.sons catch for the Massachusetts fleet and allow- iij! lOOiKii) ]ll)ls to be taken in the Gulf of St Lawrence which is a liaijli' estimate !, or 20 OlU) Bbls miyht under favorable eircumstances |i)(: tiilccii witliin three miles but even duriii<{ reciprocity less than O.iiDi) Jlbls were taken one year both fiom British and ^Vmerican Wa- |ta by the entire Mass fleet III. Is not much the lar^jer (piantity of mackerel cauj-iit by Ainiiri- aii lislii'i'iiion off the coasts of Jiritish America taken out.side the in- IsiiiHv limits; and in the summer .season especially, are not nnuikerel jfiiitM'iilh found on the banks, in the (ruif of Saint Lawrence, and not hilliiii slioic .' Yes, Untill the L'Oth of Sept about all the Mackeriel are lakeii outside of three miles The !Maydalen Islands alford good fishing I'lOtlieliist of the season n. Are Colonial lishermen injured by ])ermitting American fishermen totisliiii Colonial in-shore waters ? No. No. Ever.v man that ever |M!rlita mackerel knows that the larger the fleet the better for all K Are not more lish caught, by Colonial fishermen, wlien fishing in- ll'W. aloii<>side a fleet of American fishing-vessels, from which large Quantities of bait are thrown out, than when lisliing alone ? Certaiidy, flwjje proportion of the Canadian Fishery is carried on in small boats wr tlie .shore, say within 20 miles, Our fleet, with their immense pttitities of bait is of immen.se advantage to the Canadians !''■ What i.s the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principally pwn ! How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and "It is the annual value to the United States, or to the British Trov- -:■>■>&' f -!« 30G2 AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. inr«'.';, fis \ho cmmo, niny 1m% to fnlco such biiif, witliiii tliicc miles of tjjj, slioit' ' M('iiliiipinf,% luriiisliino/;,,,,! inauuiu;^' a vessel tor cairyiiijj it on, estiuialiu;^' it iiy the nvcni.'c leiii;ih of the cruis;>. State, as far as possilile, in detail tlie clciiicnu wlii(d) {;■() to MiaUe up the cost of takiut;' and deliveriu;;' a full cju^d uihI of returniu;;- to the home port. The av(!ra^(^ cost foi- a season's wurk 'i cifiht MM)utlis is ahout .'iO(il) Dollars oi" .'),."»()(), as iiieltidiu;^' sail, l!;ii( p,,,. vi'iions, Tra.vls, lines, (iear iS. IJoats insurance wear and tear. Tjjne of lli Mien S niontlis s.^SIii'm The. avera^t^ value of t,lN^ entire faros from ."> to.S(loi) dollais 7:;|ii This is whiMi no losses are nnide. Out of a lh;et of less than, oOO Schooiu'rs at (lloueesler tlic a\cra)4'e loss has been for the la.sl ten years over l(» ves- sels yearly and KK) lives yearly 'i'ho vessels and fares arc an entire loss as they are insured in the ^ratual lish- iiig olUc(! and all owners of vessels share in the loss 21. When you have fidly answerec aiisuci ;li.' same questions as to vesstds lii.ted out, eqni|>p('d, fiirnislie(',an(l inaiiiinl from the Dominion of(!aiiada, includinf; I'rince Mdwaid islaiMl. >n in as j^on arc ahh^ to do so. If you state that there is any dillcreiicc U- tween the cost oC the (Jaiiadian and the cost of tli(>, Aajericaii vessel uj these respects, exi)lai;i what the ditference is and the, reason lor il. T!i( Ameri(!an vesstds cost SO Dollars jjcr ton pi'csi'nt (io\'t .Measnreiiiciit. iiirtj Cainidian vessels cost from ,'iO to ^o Dollars jier t(»n Tiie dillcrciicc iiil littin;^' is in the |»rice td'dear l>oa,ts&c and tJu't (Canadian fislicriiiciiamj led on l«'ish and potatoes priri(d|>ally while the Americans Imvc In meat, salt meat I'orU Ve-ictables in fact as ^ood as the, MKukelsartitril 22, Are you acquaiidcd, and for how lony, and in what capacity, wit the (ishtuies on the coasts of Nova Scotia, >. What kind of lish freipieid the waters of those; coasts wiiii'li to bo thrown open to American lishcrmen under the provision.*; el tiia Treaty of Washin}4ton .' iMacikerel principally, some Codlisli ami ll;'.li| but 21. Ploaso state in detail the amount and tlie animal value (.siiy t 18.") I to 1S72 inclusive) of tht^ lisheries which are so to be tlirowii to American lisliermen ; also the am mat and th" annual \.dii(H catch in tim adiafUMit waters whi(di are more than three miles di^aiil mia ■ tiia from the shore ; ]»lease stale these facds in detail. 'I'Ik; .Mackerel li: within three 'idles of the Ibitish coast would probablv avoriiiii IIIIMI tlK". most favorable, circnmstances 15 to 2l>,0i)0 IJUls of Mackerel ;uiiiiiil| !.y, worth l'()Oi»0 J>ollars net I'"rom this amount should he dediicteil cost of •'.ttchin^'; (say 2.")0 vessels, (5 we(d;s, lo;,'tdher with tiiiieel' enii)Ie;vcd iiait salt v^e, in fact the lish are worthless in the \viit;'r. G(.'M of St Lawrence MackcH'td lislu^ry |)robaldy pro bices l(llMl';'i I of iViacker(d les.ahaiioiu! liltli are caught within three niilr.s ol tlu'slmiTJ The Statisti(!Sof Ala i lisheries shows that when totally exihidid nnj AWARD OF THE FISIIPIRY COMMISSION. 30G3 Icasuvt'iin'iil iMslifriui'iM'.tij fliciusliore (iHlioiics our vessels have cauf^ht more IMaokeiel Hian wiiea j'lwlyiuliiiitttMl to tlicin, consctiiit'ntly tlxioiily ,i(lvaii(a;,n,' ohiniiuM! is [I;,, jiilvih'.^t' (»1 Tree purls ami lU'rdoiii i'vDUi aiiin»,\;iiu',e :jj. Do Aiiierieaii lislicniKii i»r()(.'iire l)ait in tlie v.-atcis within three milfsof the eoa.st of the Diniiiuioii of Canada? II' so, to what extent, ,111(1 what is the value I.' Ves, Anieii(.'an Cod i''i.>h('rMieii 1)h,v hir;;e <|Uan- iiiieset l>uil IVoin tiie C/aniidi;ui short', l-'islicrnicii, Our xcsscls iirxcr ai?i'li tlu'ir I -ait always bay it some vi'ssels pay as hiyh us >iai)inioii to have (he lishiii;^'- vessels (ifllio Uiiite()llar.> is yearly paid for IJait; Duiinj^- Ke- lipiiidty, nearly all the Anu'ritran lh'»>t icfittcd in the Sti'ait-s of (Jaiiso ,i!iil i'dvts ()( Prince ICdward islana and Jlalifax At a cost of not less ili;iii s:,i)(Mi(jSl,(K> This trade had fjrown to such dimensions that upon liieiiiipesilion of the harsh measures adopted by tin! Canadian (iovt aysiii.st AiMcriean I'ishenni u there was a uinviMsal outery on the part ot'tln' iiivreliaiits and iidial)itants of tiiese ports. :'", IIa\c you any knowlcdj^e of how many Ciiited States lishiiiu-vcs- •(■Isyciuiy ('ii,ua^'(> in the tishcrie.s off the Allautie coasts of tim IJiitish \'inlli American I'rovinees, (exeludin}; Xewlbniidland,) both without 1111(1 witliiii the thi'ce-mile limit t II' so, state liow many vessels art; st) iii;;;i;,'('(l, what is the value, t)f their tonnage, what is the number of men iiii|iloye(l annually on such vessels, what sorts of lish are taUen there, <»li;it i.s the annual value of all the iish so eaui^ht, and what is the jtro- I'lrtioii, or jntibable proponion, in yt)ur jud^iiieiit, of tlie amount of Mi'ii tutch taUeu witliin threti miles of the IJritish coast, ami of tlni raiiiiiit taken outside of Ihe three-mile limit ? The C'txliishery on the liiiiks I'lnploy (.bout 'JbO Vtvssels .S: li Kit) Men The Mackerel' iMshery i Irmi.] to IImV Vessels (iOliO .Men ^'alut! «)f Vessels about .-()0(M>t»lM)oi- !ars, Value of Maelerel about 7f Ct.dlish oc HiiliiMit about 1 11(10 (MM) Dollai's Nt) Codjisli or JldlUml of any account arctitkt'ii within three miles. About. !."» or lit) (»(m» iJltls .M.ickerel were, [wiiiily taken in tlte best seasoi diirinjj rcciinociti/ within tliree, mihis, |iiiliO(ir seasons much less, -S. Wliat i)erceiitajj;e of value, if any, is, in your ]udi;iMent, added to lie piolits of a voyajie by the privile.ii'e, to fish within tliree marine wlH.soi'.tlic coast ; whiMKie is such prtdit deriveil ; ami in what (U)e.s it Icijiisjst.' Tii.'itdepeiids entirely on tiu' amount of imiekeK'l tnkeii If Mcki'icl are plenty, the price is eonsetjueutly reduced and the mackerel [tisiicry is af all limes pnuiarious ThtMvhole matter is conditional ami [iriililt'iiiatica! Tin; ctHiveiiieuee of the ports, I'reeilom from anii.'iyaiioe |ii«liii|iline IS tilt; c.hiid'ctnisitieration. The .MatMicrel fishery may be Ixist I'Jii'iiu' own (Hjast for years, it may be better on the Canatlian coast, the \m '*|'y to juii'sue the tish wliercvr they may be is the, main advantage in „' tlie coast iisheiT, St itistics sliows that onr \t'ssels have doiiti iMiciiMi our own coasts wlien totally excluded from the Ijriti.'»h lisherieis I'liaiiMiifii freely aiimittetl to them I'otlie American lisliermen ^ain under the Treaty of Wasliin^'tou hjiy v;iliijil)!e rijfhts t)f lamlinjx to (Iry nets and cure lish, or It) rcjiack r*!ii, or to transship earOuiinu)n faiUd to obtain Custonu'rs Then fullowc* the rep',!al of the license system and tlie inuuguration of a policy «' i''^ in its details we consider little better than Pirttci/ The value ol' i'< Dominion Fisheries depend entirely on the action of the V States (iovl If admitted to free Markets in the United States their (isheries benun^ ]>rosperous, and as they gain, our tislermen must lose, Withoirtli Markets of the United States their tisheries are valueless except Id ^J»^•*iJ■■■^ AWARD OF THE FISIIER\ COMMISSION. 3065 :' iisli of all de- [jome cousiimption, and the fisbernien of tbe U States can su])plj- the entire tleinaiid of our own markets from our own shores anil tlie deej) se;i tislieries without being indebted to them for a single flsli, 500 000 boilai'S yearly will not pay for tbe advantages they gain by the Treaty oiWiishiiigton. HARVEY KXOWLTOX 1:J)\VAUD, a, llOKTON S; VIE OF Massachusetts \ ' County of Essex / ' Gloucksteb June 2l8t 1.S73. Tlien personally api)eared the above uaiiuHl Harvey Knowlton and Edward A. Iforton, and made oath that iliestareiueiits herein made including answer to (iiiestioa 'i^H, are true totlie best of their knowledge and belief Before me (Seiil.) DAVID W. LOW Notary I'ltbUc Ifo. 24. [confidential.] OUKSTIONS RKSrECTlNCr TOE FISHERIES TO Bi: TRO- '['OrNDKl) TO OX BEHALF OF THE LNITEI) STATLo. I. What is your name ami age, and in what town and State do you |M(k'.' Albion K. Feirce What o;>^ ortiinities have you had for becoming acipiainted with hiif AnuM'ici ;i ..nd v\inadian Atlantic sca-tisherics, and tbe value of the leiitdi of the i;Ii.'L'ient kinds of tisli '! 1 have '»cen lo the Ray d' St Law- Thirty years and also oif our own coasts ciice iinrry years ami aiso ou our own coasts 3. Can you give the names of other jiersons in your neighborhood vlioluive also had the opi>ortunity of obtaining similar inlormation .' ■', please give some sucli name. Acopy iif the Treaty between Great Britain and the L'nited States, vii as the Treaty of Washinfjton, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- le articles IS to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done hvt ? |lfM>, please I \\m I iiiiiue 1 lb •I. What kinds of tish frequent the waters of your State, esiiccially tliosL' which are to be thrown o[)en to the Canadian tishcrmen umU'r the |liiovi! utters breaks up our IWiing we may not find a school ready to bite well again for a month. riaikcrel are not like any other Hsli, one weeks steady cat'diing would I wkc I seasons work for us and if the mackerel should happen to tend left >iHiro and l)ite well the inshore fishing would be useless to us, but if Itiii'lla'L should get up a biting schooll say just .> miles from the shore I'liif iuinoyanee and breaking up of the fleets lishing would be the trou- lik'.uiore time is spent by the licet in hunting up the mackerel antl tinlit only on our eoasts, tlie Canadians liave to iiav (! to S (h)llai's per barrel, j of the Afaekerel eanght are eaii^^iit witliiu tliree miles of our own shores Witli the sanu; enterjtrise ok tlieii nait onr inshore lisheries are of as much biMiefit to tlu; raiiadiaiis as tln'iis is to us, the Menliadeu are used at the rate ot 0 Bhls to every loo \',\^\^ Mackerel 8. What quantity and value of each kind of tish are aii;iiiai]y tiik.-u by Canadian hshermen, and what by Ameri(;an fishermen, in the watiis olf the eoasts which are to bo thrown open to com[)etition l>y the Trcatv of Washington ? See Statistics 0. Do Canadian lishermeu procure bait or sui){)li('s in the wati'is ni your State '! and if so, to what extent and value :' They buy Meiihailcii bait that are caught by American fishermen and they will luobably take their own bait under the treaty 10. ^\'hat is tlie probable annual valuer to Canadian fisheniieii in hiiii; able to luocure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure their fish on the coasts of your State, without any other it'stiietion tliaiii that contained in the Treaty of Washington ? The. Menhaden lisheiy is (juite valuable and also the ^budcerel lisliery and the Canadians witiij the same enterprise would make our fisheries as valuable to tlii'iiia-i] theirs could be to us 11. Will the admission ot Canadian fishermen to our in shore tislii'ii(-j| cause any detriment or hiuderance to the profitable i)ursuit of tlu'sej tisheries by our own '.Ishermeii ; and if so, in what manner, and towliatj extent annually ? 'Che competition of their cheap vessels and ciiuj will lower the price of fish 12. What nuiubir of Canadian vessels and boats are eiigajjcd in tliej fisheries of your State, and what are their tonnagc! ami value, ainl liiel number of men employed upon them ? Tlie most of their tisheries arel carried on in boats and usually within L'O miles ot the shore somiuf their vessels have been with our fleet on our coasts. 13. Of the tisheries pursued by American fishermen olf tlic AtJ lantic coasts of the British ^s'orth American provinces, what proiMirtioii consists of the deep-sea fisheries, ind what proportion of the i;isli(ii| lisheries ? The cod iishery is a deep sea hshery entirely. The Maikiiej tishery is in the bay of St. Lawrence about I in 120,000 bbls are caii;:lij by American flshermen inshore. 14. For what description of fish do American hsheriiK'n [)ursiie tli^ iu-shore lisheries ! ^Mackerel. lo. 1 f you state that the in shore fisheries are pursued wholly or tliie! for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken withij the in-shore limits, and wliat proportion is taken outside .>^' the iiisln' limits? Four-tit'ths are taken outside the three mile limits wlu-u tlij Fishery was free. 1(J. Is not much the larger (luantity of mackerel caught by AiiKiic* fishermen olf the coasts of British xVmerica taken outside the i'a-sii' limits ; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel ^i'\m.\ found on the banks, in the Culf of Saint Lawrence, anil not w/hj shore? yes late in the season mackerel tend in shore, l»ac our vcsst do better otl shore as the crews are ke[)i. mi the vessels when it wo we inshore they would be off half the time. 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American tislu'ii to hsh in Colonial iu-shore waters ? no. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 30G7 I v;iliu', iuiil tiifll LMiion inivsii 18, Are not more fish ciuiaht by Colonial flshormcn, wlieii lisliiiis; iii- jliQif, iiloiif;si(le a llec't of AmiM-icaii lishiiift-vessels, iVoin wliicli luryo (iiwiilities (iT l)ait are thrown out, than wlicn fishing alone? most ccr- (iiiiilv wlioivver the maeUerel are ted they remain. 1!!,' What is the best bait for tlie mackerel, and where is it i)rinri]);illy t.iiuMi .' Ili»^v innch of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and what is the annual value to tlu^ United States, or to thelJritisli Prov- ii,(.'e.s,.i.stiie case may be. to take su(!h bait within three miles of the shore! Cliinis & Menhaden ndxed. L'li, I'leiise state as to eaeh (;l;>ss of lisheri(>s earricMl on from your State or (listri(!t, the cost of fitting out, eqin|)i>in<4-, furnishing, and iiuin- BJiig a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the average length of thi'Ci'iiiso. State, as far as ])ossil)h', in detail the elements wliicii go to make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returning to the home ])ort. For a season's trip to tiio liny, tor Barrels, salt, i»ro- visions. Insurance, tS: wear and tear, .'i, (»()'>. :;i. Wlien you have fully answered (pu'stion L'b, ])lease answer the •■aiiie ([iiestions as to vessels litted out, eciuippcd, furnished, and niannedh'oni the J)onnnion of Canada, including Pi'lnce Julward Islnnd, H) tar as you are able to do so. If yon state that there is any dilfer- once between tiie cost of the ('anadian and the cost of the American vessel in these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason kit. not more than one-half the cost of the American vessel The Aiiierii'an vessel stands about 100 JJoIlars i)er ton rigged and reaily for *a, Tiie {-'iuiadian about s.lo. j)er ton Their men are fed jtrincipally oil lish anil potatoes. Our vessels have the best; supplies the market ailords 'I'l. Arc you ae(|nainte(l, and for how long, and in what capacity, wivh the tislieries on the coasts of Nova Scoti;i, New r.ruiiswick, (Quebec, or Prince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of these llisheries? all the lisiieries L'J. Wliat kind of tisli frequent the waters of those coasts wiiich are II lie tlii'own open to xVmerican lishermeu undin- the provisions of the |Ireaty of Washington .' The ^lackerell is all we take a a general iius % Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from |lS.Jltol8TU inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown open to JAiiipriean lishermeu ; also the amount and the annual value of the catch jintheadjiicent waters which are more than three miles disti'ut from the liliore; please state these facts in detail. l'"i. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three Bill's of tlie C()asr of the Dominion of Canada 1' If so, to what extimt iiiilwliiU is the value 1' We buy all our bait for all Usheries on the [Banks Viilne «L'00,0(M),(K) which we pay to Ilritisli fishermen. I>o not the ^\ lUeriean lisheruuMi purchase supplies in the ports of |tti! boiiiinion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions. iiilviiiious iirticles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries; ISO, in what ports, and to what extent!? And, if that is the case, is it iJotaii iidviiMtage to the ]»orts of the Dominion to have the lishing-ves- l^lsiii tile United States in their neighborhood during the fishing sea- Exjdain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money- value F'liat advaiit.age. Yes, every vessel going to the Grand lianks and Meni hanks stop tor supplies and IJait at a cost of not less SOO Dol- " seaeli, The Mackerel lishermeu under the Treaty will i)robably spend sniuch iiiDiv, The Trade will amount t(j nearly if not quite a Million i'iolhirs. 'MM'' JfiifeiJtiM.; >*'^: ::*-"■ Iwl ■ ■ ^ *\*k ■* ' oBm^.t \, 1i',^P|f T 'l|.i i ^1; V.^'^p mh 1* :.:! 3068 AWARD OF THE FiSHEKV COMMISSION. 27. Have yon any knowledge of how many United Statos tisliinrr.y,,;,. sels yearly engage in the fisheries ott' the Atlantic coasts ol tlic iJiitjsii Iforth American Provinces, (excluding Newtoundlaiid,) lioth witliout and within the three mile limit? If so, state how niiiiiy vessels arc so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the, nuinher ofnu-u employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of iisli are taken there what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and wlnii is tlie im.i- portion, or ])robable i)roi)ortion, in your Judgment, of the amount of sikIi catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of tlie iniioiint taken outside of the three mile limit ? About 7 or SOO N'essf'Is, liooii im.„ value 2.] bullions. During lleciprocity about ,'. of the Mackerel were taken inshore, say 15 to 2U000 bbls. We have done nmcli better oWmn own coasts, For Codfish «S: Halibut our vessels go to the (band v\ IJrowns liaidvs. AH the Herring are bought from British Fislieinieii. 2S. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added ti) the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine units of the coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what does it eoiisist.' The cost of taking any kind of fish fully equals their value to the [iro- ducer all jirofits are made by the wholesale dealers, In aseertiiinini; the value if 20 000 bbls of IMaclierel are taken wortli $ir)0 0(m,()() we mii>t take from that amount the expense of 400 W'ssels and (iooo men at least for one months time in taking them. The whole valuation of the shure fishery so far as i)rofits are concerned is absolutely nothing 20. J)o the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack ! them, or to transshi]* cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, what! are those rights, and what do you estimate them, to be wortli aniuiaiiy, [ in the aggregate? ^'o we think we had commercial rigliLs in llri ports but iuvve been denied them. 30, Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are! concerned, more, or (pute as, beneficial to the peoi)U' of the Ibitsii Xurtlij American Provinces as to the people of the United States .' more to| them. 31, What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of lish of allj descri])tions which are annually shipped to the United ^States .' 32, For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger \)i\vt of thefatj herring, and ibr all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States atVord the! only market, it does. 3.'>. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the Uiiitoill States on fish aiul fish-oil imported from Canada, wliicii are to lie iiiailej free under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, [ilease staie them annually, and by classes, from IS")! to 1872, inclusive, refer to| the Treasury reports. 31. If you know wliat amount of duties is .annually paid in Canada on fish and fish-oil imported from the Unitei' o ates, wlii(di are tob(j made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please stato then annually, and by classes, from ISoi to 1S72, inclusive. Don't kiiowo| any American vessel ever carrying fish to Canadian ports. 3."j. The object of thei-e inquiries is to ascertain whether the rijjiitsid respect of fisliing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Groii Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalou for the rights in thos(^ respects which were granted by said Treaty the United States. If you k.iOw anything bearing upon tiiis subjec which you have not already stated in reply to previous (piostious,iilei»3| state it as fully as if you had been specially incpiired of in respect of i| The principal reason for 6.. .Isfaction on the part of the fishenne'^ . AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3069 In L'uitcil States is the reliof from annoyance which the Treaty aftbrd.s the proscciitioM of the lishinj? biisiue.ss the liberty to take tish at all Mints where they may tend will scarcely attbrd them a living. The iiiaokeic'l fishery is so variable and uncertain that we need all facilities for taking: tliem wherever they are as a few days good lishing often iiiiikcs the seasons work, Our own coast furnishes the best Mackerel, and we have done better there rhan in the bay, but we like to have the privilege of fcllowing the Mackerel, and the Canadians will bo benelited asimicii as we are iu coming on our coasts. ]\ A. K. PIERCE, Master of Sch etiillv agreed A. K. riEliCl-:, Masi aiiil endorse J CEO. BEAIJSE. " Cai.t.l'eireei JAMES K. HAMILTON, [jouN Mcdonald, " Wm. S. Baker. Col. Cook. Thorwaldsten. Electric Flash. .q.t statements Snoni to and subscribed this oth June IST.'J before me, ADDISON CENTi:iJ, Jkit. CoUeciin (Seal. No. 25. [CONriDENTIAL.J THE FISIIEIUES TO HE PRO- - ON BEHALF OF TUE UNITED QIESTIONS RESPECTING POrNDKD T(3 STATES. 1. What is your name and age, raid in what town and State do you |rf*iile' Sixty years, Geo. Norwood of the Firm Geo. Norwood iS; Son I Gloucester Mass , What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with American and Canadian Atlantic sea-tisheries, and the value of the Icatchof the different kinds of tish ? Have been engaged iu the Fish- Ijriesfor 1'.") years. 3. Caajou give the names of other i)er.sons in your neighborhood [rto hiive also hail the opportunity of obtaining similar iuformatiou J Itso, i)iease give some such name. 1, A copy of the treaty between Great Britain ami the United States , Itnowii as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- lauiiiie articles IS to 2- inclusive, and state that vou have done so ' ll'es. Wiiat kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especially those hliiili are to be thrown oi)eu to the Canadian fislicrmeu uuder the pro- |ti>i(iiisof the Treaty of Washington .' Codfish, Mackerel. Menhaden. i Can can give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken liiiimally off the coast of your State, from the years IS.jlto 1872, in- ItbivL- .' If you can do this please do so; and if not, i)lease state wliere bt iiitormation can be procured. Sec Iiis[»ector Generals Keport. on |llit' Fisheries of Mass. State House, Boston, ". If you are able to do so, will you state the anujunt and value of the jiiiieiicaii fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian lishermen jaik'i' tlio [)iovisions of the Treaty of Washington .' Please stali; tliem la detail, siiowing the dilferent kinds of fisli, and tiie \.i!ue ot eaeii iii'l. Mackerel and Menhaden i)rincipally, ^Mackerel has a value Ni tiuctiiates from .-?<>.()(» to >'20.()l) per bbk With the same degree of Ptoiniseoii the part of the Canadians our Coast Fisheries, would be as mMi- to them as what they possess would be to our Fishermen. 'i' What (ju.'utity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken ' ( i..-'yhm, The Mackerel Fisiiery is both a ishore and deej) Sea Fishery, Ahi)iit| oiii! filth of the J'^ntire IMackel Fishery can be considered as a iShoiel Fishery, If. For what description of fish do American tisliermen pursne tiiej inshore fisheries .' Machcrel. 15. If you state that the in shore fisheris are pursued wholly orcliiet for mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken withi the in shoie limits, and what i)roportion is taken outside of tlic in shm limits? Under the Itesprocity Treaty, the Entire British Slioio tnfl more than Hhs were caught outside the o mile limits. l(t. I.s not much the larger (juantity of mackerel caught by Amcncail fishermen ofi' the coasts of Uritish America taken outside the inshoiJl limits; and in the summer season especially, are not nnu-kmcl geiieni!! found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not wiihiij shore! Yes. 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American lislti luiei to fish in Colonial inshore waters '. No. IS. Are not more lish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fishinj' iij shore, alongside a fleet of American fishing- vessels, IVoni which laiM quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone .' Yos: iti a well established fact founded on experience of over 10 years thati the Mackerel Fishery the larger amount of vessels in the Fleet the be ter for all. 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it ininci] taken I How much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, am what is the annual value to the United States, or to the British IVo^ inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of tli shore? Clams & Menhaden mixed are the best, Clams are foiimlr both American & English Shores. Meubadeu are found ouly ou tU lit AWARD OF TllK FISHi^RY COMMISSION. 3071 AiiicriMii ^l"»''*'- Tlio value of the MeiiUiidi'ii Fishery is fro ii oO » to 5,1(1 tlioiisaiiil (hillars at (Uoiurester ;.'ii, ricase state as to eaeli ehiss of fisheries earrieil on from your State or district J'"' <'<'st of iittiiifjf out, e(|uipi)inj^', fnrnishiM to >« K)()i).t)(). Crew's time IL' Men each one year ."!'.' J(jOl>.()i>. C'an;idian Vessels are i)i'o- visioiit'diniK'ii cheaper than the Americans, their men living' principally oil lisli and Potatoes ours on the best the .Market affords :;:'. Arc vou ac(pniinted, and for how Ion;;', and in what capacity, with till- lislicrii's on the coasts of Nova kScotia, New JJrmiswick, (Quebec, or I'liiK't' Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of these |i>iiei'ies ? All of them. :':i, What kind offish frequent the waters of those coasts which are to I iifthiowii open to Ameri(;an fishermen under the ])rovisions of the Treaty [Wiisliiiijiton 1' The mackerel is the only available Fish to be cauylit I by American Vessels. Please state in detail the amount and the annual vidue (s;iy from 1 b.VI t(i ISTli inclusive) of the fisheries which avc so to be thrown oj)en to Aiiiericau lishermen ; also theaMH)unt and the iMinual value of the catch fill the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant from the plinie; please state these facts in detail. .Ti, Do Aineri(!an hsliermeii ]>rocure bait in the waters within three imilesot the coast of the J>ominion of Canada? If so, to what extent, ami what is the value ? The Fisherman do not catch any Bait; them- Isfhes. They buy all from the Shore Fisherman. :;ij. Do not the American fishermen purchase sui)plies in the i>orts of |tlif Dominion of Canada, in(;ludinfj bait, ice, salt, banels, provisions, id various articles for the use of the men enga,i;ed in the fisheries ? If ISO, in what ports, ami to what extent ! And, if that is the case, is it liiotaii advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing- ves- |>flsiit the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing season? Usiilaiii why it is so, ami estimate, if you can, the n)oney-value of that [wviiiitagc. American Vessels engaged both in the Deep Sea tS; Shore iFisheries off the Dominion Coast expend .-jlOOO.OO to ^K'OtKdb each for I%lit's ami lletitling amounting to about $40(>,()0(» 0(» in trade. .Many the Inhabitants of the Shores of the Provinces literall}' dei)end upon IllieAiueiiean Fisherniau for their Living. I'i. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing-ves- js(ls yearly engage in the fisheries off fehe Atlantic coasts of the British prtli American Provinces, (excludiug Newfoundland,) both without and jwhiii the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels are so eu- |P?mI, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of meu Pl'liiyed anmially on such vessels, what sorts of lish are taken there, T-^t is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- ..j'„ A J --<5 3072 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. portion, or probable i)r()portion, in your Jiidfrmont, of tlic amount ot sucli catch taken within tliit'o miles of tlie British coast, and of the amount taken outside of the tliree-milo limit? About I0(» Ni's.scls wi-ic cnjyafje*! in these Fisheries at the timo of the Itesprocity. At present nncler the restricted Tolicy many more American N'essVls itnisnc tin Deep Sea Fisheries for Cod-llsh ^; Halibut since tlui introdiiciiDii ot i,.„ for the preservation of Fish this business has been nioie pmiiiuld,. ;,^ the Fish are sold fresh. N'essels are worth from Alio. no to •'<7(».(i(i i,,,,. ton. The (ish taken average about -.] million dollars. In tin. i,|„st favorable season about Ji^KM* 000 00 bbis are taken in the I'.iivotSt Lawrence less than !th of these are taken within 3 mile of tlie Shon, This is the entire and only lishery used by Americans. 28. What perceutajie of value, if any, is, in your jud^iiit'iit. addni to the profits of a voyage by the privilej^^e to fish within ilircc nuiiiiif miles of the coast; whence is auch profit derived ; and in wlmt docs it consist ? Any actual prolit on the Fishinpf JJusiness never liad any t-x istance our Vessels have caught more Mackerel when eiitiitdy evcliidiil from the Inshore Limit, 29. Do the American lishermen gain under the Treaty of \Vaslniij;tnii any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fisli, or to ivpark them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, wlmt are those rights, an years State of MAssAnmsKTTS '! ss. County of Essex Gloucester June 2 1st Subscribed and sworn to. Before me iSeal.) No. 2G. [confidential.] DAVID W. LOW Notary Public I'KSTIONS RESPECTING POUNDKI) TO STATES. THE - ON FISHERIES TO BE PRO- BEHALF OF THE UNITED 1 1. What is your name and age, and in what town and State do you re- k] xVndrew Leighton Aged 52 Gloucester Massachusetts. |2. What opportunities have you had for becoming ac(|nainted with ^American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the lof the difterent kinds of fish t Have fished in Gulf of St. Law- teduiinj^f a period of twenty-eight years for Mackerel, also have been tell ill other kinds of fishing in the meantime. Since, for the last Rvears, liave carried on business as owner and fitter. lU'aii you oive the names of other persons in your neighborhood who fve also liad the opportunity of obtaining similar infonnation '! If so, iseto jiivi- some such name. IMostof the members of firms (in theFish- ?Biisiiiess) in Gloucester have been personally engaged in fishing in the pofSt. Lawrence. I would mention the names of Capt Beiijaniiu S'spA'apt Robert Reeves. •\copy of the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States W3 F ■^. fll •r " ■**3^ -^^ '>\i. .\\, .£.t i-*-!; -^r m '^4& ■^1 ..-,:i..J... '-m ■'■'■\i. , .„ #. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) III 1.0 I.I 1.25 III 1.8 1.4 III 1.6 m ^ ^ /2 / ^''> / % y ^^'"J^'- ^4%."^ '/ M Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 A ,^ ^ 3074 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. known as the Treaty of Wunliington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that yuu liavc dune ho! ] Lave examined' the same. 5. "NViiat kinds of tish fre<|uent the waters of your State, cspHJaHv those which art; to be thrown open to the Canadian tishertiit'ii untler tli< provisions of the Treaty of Wa hington ? Codfish Jlulibut. lIii(l(|o(i Polluck Hake — Menhaden. Maciierel, Swordflsh &c. G. Can you jiive a statement of the kinds and quantities of fi.sii takpn annually off the coast of your State from the years 18r)4 to isTi'. iudi,. sive? If you can do this please do so; and if not, pleiifse stati- where that information can be procured. Have never swii anv es timates, the quantity is enormous, jnobably 300 000 UblsMacki'iel Mass & Maine Meidiaden probably 200,0(>0 Dollars Cod haddock polimk l,r>00,000 Dollars 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount ami value Dftlic American fisheries which are to be thrown open toCaualiaii tisln'inKii under tho i)rovision9 of the Treaty of \Vaj*hiniiti>li North American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both witiiont and within the three-mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the nnniber of iinii employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken then-, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pm portion, or probable proportion, in your judgwent, of the amount of such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount taken outside of the three-mile limit f About 400 vessels. averaging 60 Tons & 14 men Costing from $100.00 to $125.00 per Tou New Measure MavkereUiny 200 Bank Fishing 28. What percentage- of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to the profits of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles of the coast ; whence is such profit derived ; and in what does it coii sist f Wheu mackerel are found inshore it is generally at the mouths of rivers or creeks, and unless we can go there to catch them, the priv ilege is not worth much to us 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington any valuable rights of lauding to dry uets and cure lish, or to rciiack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before; if so, what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, in the aggregate ? They will have no more rights than they were really entitled to before. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishing clauses are concerned, more, or ipiiteas, beneficial to the people of the iJntish North American Provinces as to the people of the United States? Itscenisi to be the unanimous opinion of American Fishermen that tlie etfect oi the Treaty will be better for them than for us. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of tish of nl descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fa herring, and tor all No. 1 salmon, does not the United Stales alfoidtli only market. It does. 33. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the L'nitei States on fish and fish-oil imported from Cauada, which are to be in"' free uuder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please stati them annually, and by classes, from 18.'4 to 1S72, inclusive. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3077 34, If }'ou know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada OD flsb and tisboil im^)orted from the United States, which are to be made free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them an- nually, au«l hy classes, from ISHl to 1872, inclusive. 35. Tbe object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights In res|)ect of fishini;, and llshermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent fortberiglits in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you know anything bearing upon this subject vbicb you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, pltase state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in re- >|twt of it. Statk ok MASSACiirsinTs County of Ks.sex s.s Siibscribi'il and sworn to, Before nu' i!feal.) No. 27. ANDREW LEIGIITON WALTER M FALT GLorcESTEK, June L'lst 187.3 DAVID W. LOW y %A^ i,.>i i - •*.•.; $ ^♦-:^ F 'di !r. 3078 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Our Shore fisheries are worth some years more than tho (^iuiadimis' Mackerel are an erratic fish, our sliore Maciierel are worth 5 Dollars iitjr Bbls. more than the Bay Mackerel, The IVfunhaden tiHiuTv ontirelv a shore fishery and are talou}rl» lial»lo tu varv 8. What quantity and vahie of each kind of flsh sire aimiially taken by Canadian tisliermen, and what l)y American tishcnncn, in the waters off the coasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Tieatv of VVasliington ? See Canadian Statistics See U States Statistics 9. Do Canadian lisliermen procure bait or supplies in tlie wattis of your State; and, if so, to what extent and value? I'oyiu Uaitisdl,. tained by them l»y purchase 10. What is the probable annuid value to Canadian fisluTineii in lie ing able to procure bait, to land and , but they do not do business as we iln 11. Will the admission of Canaominion of Canada ? If so, to wiiat extent, aiul what is tho value ? Tlsey sometimes buy their IJait of tho Cana- liansat a value of not less tlian $200,000.00. %. Do not the Americap. lishermen i)urchase supplies in tho ports of tlie Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, I and various articles for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries? If so, ill wliiit ports, aud to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is litnotan advantage to tlie ports of the Dominion to liave the lishing- vesselsof the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing Uasou? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you cati, tho money- ulne of that advantage. Yes. Our vessels often refit in the ports of I 'lie Dominion at an expense of from 8100 to ^(iW). '. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing- Iwsels yearly engage in the (isheries olf tho Atlantic coasts of tho llritish North American Provinces, (exf^Iuding Xewfoundland,) both I'ltlioiit and within the three-mile limit? If so, state how many ves- sels are so engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the aiunlier of men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken tliere, what is tlie annual value of all the fish so caught, and n^liat is the proportion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the imomitof such catch taken within three miles of the Jiritish coast, antl |o! the amount taken outside of the three-mile limit 1 About 000 or 700 Pesseis are annually engaged tliev average al)out 05 tons employing |>bout 8(K»0 men, I'S. What percentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, adiled to |!li« prolits of a voyage by the privilege to tish within three marine miles ir^.'' m\i "m 3080 AWABO OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. of the coast; whence is such profil derived; and in what docH it con sistf In case we are deprived of ilshing at the mouth ot tlie Uiwr.^ the Mackerel Fisliery woukl be rendered almost valueloHH, 29. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Waskiiii! ton any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and curetisli, or to rt I>ack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs Ixttorc ; it .,„ what are those rights, and what do you estimate them to !>«' worth an Dually, in the aggregate ? No the Canadians are more beiioiitvil tlian we are. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the tlshinyciaiiscsur. concerned, more, or quite as, beneticial to the people ot die Uritish North American Provinces as to the people of the United States? i; is more benefit to the Canadians than to the American ri.slieniitii. 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes ol lisji ot ul| descriptions which are annually shipped to the United States .' 3L'. For all No. laud No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part ot tlie t;tt lienin;', and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States atlonl the onh market. Yes. No fat mcackerel are carried south of llatteras, they ait all consumed in the Northern Middle and Western States 33. If you know v/hatamountofduti.'s is annually paid to the I'liiti'il States on fish and hsh-oil imported from Canada, whicii an- to lie iiitih' frefe under the provisions of the Treaty of Washin;;ton, pleas*- state thtm annually, and by classes, from l.sr>-f to 1.S72, in(;lusive. Tlie stati>tii« will show think about from 200 to $300,OOO.OU T!ie imiiortatiitn.s aouM be doubled by free markets. 31. If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in ('.iiiailinii fish and fish-oil imported from the United States, wliidi aiv t(t l)e iiluIu free under the provisions of the said Treaty, please stale tlieiu auiiualhj and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. 3'). The object of these iniiuiries is to ascertain whether tlie ii;;htsiii| respect of fishing, and fishermen, and fish, which weret;niiite(l toGnatj Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a Just e(|uivak'iit| fortbe rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to tlnjl United States. If you know anything bearing upon this witieli subject yoiij have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it aJ fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. Tbel United States should have claimed at least a half million yearly as ilj« fisheries that are to be affected depend solely on the U States luaiket* for their value and we get no advantages except the release from aiiiiov-j auce. Our Mackerel fleet can take all the Mackerel tliat is wanted t'oq home consumption off our own coasts, and we are simply building up foreign fishery which is valueless without our markets for the pnvilegd of using British harbors, and giving them our trade which is wurtli ll[ times mure to them than any fisheries are to us. WM. C. WONSOy I'E OF Massachusetts ( County of Essex i *'■'* State County of Essex ) Gloucesteu June L'lst ISM Then personally appRarol the above named William C. Woiison aiij made oath that the foregoing statements by him subscribed are true Before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW y of (try Pfthhc ill)«!8 it cou I' the Uivei:, of Washing isli, or to K'- l»!t\)n' ; it' Ml, Im' \vortl\ an iMR'tited than iiji (;la»st>8 iirf j|' tln' I'.ritish (I Stiiti's! li ishi'iiut'ii. I, of tish of iil! ,iltOS I tin' tilt heniii;;. rtonl tilt' only ti'ias, tl\t'y are 'S I to tlu' Tiiiti'il arc to lu' m.uli' ease sliiti- thi'iu Tin' StlUbtli- oriatioiis wo;iM i,\ ill C.inmli nil i I arc to lie uli'Ii; J Uit'in auiiu.illy. hiT tilt' ri;;htsiii| .raiitetl to Gii-at a inst t'»|uiviili'ia aiaTmitytotli«| diicli subject yoal )leiiso state it ajl pect ot it. Tbdl on .veavly us ihe J States market^ oiise fi't»iu aniioyj lat 18 wanted foij ,\Y buihliug up for the imvilegjj IbicU is worlli " C. WON'SOX |june 'Jlst !*'•! (,'. Wouson aiH| H'ilied are true \V. LOW AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 28. 3081 [CONFIDENTIAL.] OlESTIONS KKSPKCTING TEJE FISITKHIES TO UK I'UUNDHl) TO ON BEHALF OF THE UN STATES. PRO ITED 1. What is .your name and age, and in what town and State do you reside! («fo Friend & Co. Gloucester Mass. :'. What opportunities have .you had for beuoiuing acHpiainted with the Amevii'iui ainl Cana«Uan Athmtie sea tisiieries, and tlie value of the catch ui itic ilitlcreiit kinds of (isii t Have caught them, cured them, & soUl tbeiii. now prosecuting the fishing Husiness. 0. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighlxirhood who iiave aim) had the opportunity of obtaining similar infornuition ? If so, iilfiW give some such name. Could give the nanu's of 4() Fishing Firms, hut you have probably sent them these questions, 4. A copy of the Treaty between Great Britain anti the United States, Inown as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto aiuiexcd. Will \ ni v\ amine articles 18 to liL* inclusive, and state that you have done so .' W c Lavf. j. What kinds of fish ficipient the waters of your State, especially thctse ,i|iieliari' t(t lie thrown open to the Canadian fishermen under the jtro vwnns of the Treaty of Washington If All Kinds that we have the jiijilit to take upon their shores, Mackerl vS: Meidiaden in particular (!, Can yon give a statement of the kinds and (piantities of tish taken I aiiuually ott the coast of your State fronj the years 1 Sol to IS72, inclusive .' livimeau do this please do so; and if not i)lease state where that in- Jkmalion can be procured. Can get all the re(iuired information from llhiTeports of the(ieneral Inspector, of our own and other fishing States, '. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of American fisheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian ttshefT Im under the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Please state jllieui in detail, showing the ditt'erent kinds of fish, and the value of each IkiDil, Mackerel and I'orgies are taken on our shores, the Porgie being laiiiely our own shore fishery, our shore Mackerel are worth, and will Ibniig inoie right along, than the Bay Mackerl. they seem to be a ptttr tish everyway, and it there is any advantage it is in favor of the |Cauadiau tishermen almost in the proportion of 2 to 1. $. What (piantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken |liyl'anadian tishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters Ithe coasts which are to be tliro'"n open to competition by the Treaty ton ? You had better consult the statistics of both conntries, Bilyon will learn the full quantity & value of the whole thing, '.'. l»o Canadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of I'Hir State f and if so, to what extent and value ? Only by purchasing pweterm them Slivers or Porgie Bait, slivered ready for use. What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being ^leto procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure wr lish oil the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than ntwutaiiied in the Treaty of Washington? same as their fisheries Mo us. |11. Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to ourin-shore fisheries auy detriment or hiuderance to the profitable pursuit of these 't.*. I IB 3082 AWARD OP THE FINHKRY COMMISSION. fisheriL'M by our own flHhormuii ; and if ho, in wliat manner, aiul to what extent annually J W« think it will injuro our l)u.sint>HMa aivm dcul, |,v tbeir running; olioaper voHHels, iVc ttttintj cheaper can uudci.sL'll usfvcrv time Twill rcHult in great Iohs to the American tlsherincii 12. What number of Canadian vo.sHels and boats arc cii;;ai;c(| m the li.shories of your State, and what are their toniiatjc, and value, and the number of nuMi employed upon them J We dont tliitdi tlit'ic arc aiiv l.'{. Of the liHlieries pursued by American hslMMincii nil the Atlantic coasts of the British North American I'rovinces, what propurtion (;()nsi>ts of the deep-sea tisheries, and what proportion of the in slion- lishcties! y'q are caught off shore, and some vessels dont take a tisli inslMH.. i,t any kind. 14. For what atnlilol not return to the Bay. Take off the annoyance of being eliascd l)y cut- ter^', and having to keep watch of an imaginary .'> mile line, anil W'al dont think our fishermen would care one cent wether they caiii^dit a| mackerel inside 3 miles. We dont consider they are wortii one dollar, 10. Is not much the larger !^t of the Canadian and tlio cost of the Anicritraii vessel in till!* rt'spH'ts, explain what the tUfference in and the rcasun for it. Wo all Know tiiat Canadians can fit bnild and run their vessels cheaper ,1,1511 we call, but how ninch cheaper we are unable to say. We think »e .'lioiil'i place tlie matter about ri^ht to say ff (iheaper than we can l,iiilil. man niui run our vessels. And we are conlident we have placed [lie figure low. :':'. Are you ac(piainted, ami for how lonjj, and in what capacity, with the fislicrics on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Mninswick, (^)uebec, or I'riiice Kdward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of these csiieru's! ^^'t'll ac(|uaintetl with all of them, ,.!. Wiiat kiml of Hsh frequent the waters of those coasts which arc fnlietlirowM opi'U to American fishermen under the provisions of the Iieat.vof W'iishiiigton ? Ma«'kerel — Cod & Halibut. :'l. ric'iisc state in detail the amount and the annual value (say from ImUo 1"^7-* inclusive) of the llsheries which are so to be thrown open iiiAmoiicaii tishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the oatcli ill the adjacent waters which are umre than three miles distant fruin the shore ; please state these facts in detail. You must consult statistics again, for we cant };ive you the desired informati«)n. :',"). Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within thrfo mile,' lit tlic coast of the Dominion of Canada *. If so, to what extent, ami wiiiU is the value ? Buy lots of IJait from them, and pay from L* to oliiimlit'd tiionsand dollars. :'(i. Do not the American llshermen purchase supi)lies in the ports nt" '.lie Doiiiinioii of Canada, including bait, ice, salt; barrels, provisions, I »od variouH articles for the use of the men engajjed in the' fisheries ? If I s(i, ill what ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it not |jiia(lvanta},'e to the ports of the Domini»>n to have the fishing-vessels i)f tiie United States in their neighborhood during the fishing season .' |Ex|iliuii wliy it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money-value of that ailvanta;;c. Our vessels often go in to their different Ports, refit, and liny everything for the voyage, and pay the Dominion merchants all the I m from JjoU to $8(10, Have i>aid this Amt ourselves, for one vessel. Ilavo you any knowledge of how many United States fishing- hes)*ls .Yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of tlie Britisii North American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both I'itbout and within the three mile limit ? If so, state how many vessels ire 80 engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number lof men employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken jtliw, what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the |iw|iortioii, or probable proportion, in your Judginent, of the amount of Irt catch takan within three miles of the Hritisli coast, anopl(> of tli(> ltriti>ii North American Provinces uh to the peopleof the United Stiitcs ! AiLsw^r same as (juestion 29 31. What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of tlMh of all dcHcriptious which are annually nhipiied to the United 8tat«i4? (.'ant say. 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 nuickerel, lor the larger part of tlic fa; herring, and for all No. 1 Nnluion do(>M not the United iStatfs iitfonl tin only market. Tat mackerel ilnd a ready and about the univ iiiiitket in the U. 8. ' 33. If you know what amount of duties Ih annually paid totlii> I'nitni Htates on fish and tiish-oil imported from Canada, which arc to Ih- mad,. free under the provisiouH of the Treaty of WaNhingUm, picasf state tlitMn annually, and by clasNes, from 1851 to 1872, inclusive. .Statistics will show you the whole thing, we should think $2riU,0(>0 was alioui right I And importations would more thandowble up by free markets. 34. If you know what amount of duties is annually paiei state it as fully as if you had been specially iiupiired of in n-sin'ct ot itj Our impression in relation to fishing inside the three mile limit issiiii|il) this. It will be a detriment instead of a benitit. One reason wliyil will be so is that our vessels would be likely to lie in the liarlioh I'ort Hood, and along their coast, when they ought to be out on tlici iiig ground. To take lish inside the three mile limit is of no value li the American fishermen. It is only when our fishermen are taking ti:* say from 4 to 5 miles from the land, of being bored to death by ciittor* sent out of their harbors when they seek them for shelter from tli^ storms which frequent that coast, of not being permitted tobiivAiiy thing except wood and water, and hardly that that this whole truublj lies. Our fishermen only waut protection in this matter, and tlieuiackj erel they would take inside the three mile mile line, we would stake ou reputation, would not much more than pay for the Bait they iisotl. Attest to the foregoing. GEO FltlENl) \ III, State of Massachusetts County of Essex s. s. ' Gloucester June iMst 187:) i Then personally appeared John J. Somes and for himself and tlieotli^ members of the firm of Geo. Friend & Co. made oath that the foiegoiu statements subscribed in the firm's name are true Before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW yoliny PMii'l AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMI88ION. 30b^ No. 29. [confidential.] o(ESTIONS KESPKCTING ^ I'OrNDKI) TO statks. TIIR FISnKRIKS TO 11 K PRO- — ON BEUALF OF THE UNITED 1. What iM your name nnd age, and in what town and Stat«^ do you rf«iil(»f rn'(h*iic (li'irinj; Oloncestor MaHH .', Wliiit opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted witli ;k American and Canadian Atlantic Hea-flMlierieM, and the value of the atcbot tiie (liferent kimls of tlsh T 1 have been practically eiiijajjed :g ibe tixlu'iieH ito years & now conducting the general iLshing business lith 7 vessels I, I'liu you give the namen of other persons in your nelghlnu'hood tho have also had the opportunity of obtaining similar inform itiou' If so, please give some such luirae. Alfred Low iS: (Jo, F. O. NVonson iSMi. Woiison 2d. 1, A eojiy of the Treaty between Great Ilritain and the United States, known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will you ex- imine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done so! I Uve. What kinds of flsh frequent the waters of your State, especially iose which are to be thrown open to the Canadian Qshermeu under the tovisioim of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel, Cod, ll.uriii;;, 'ogies, ti, Can yon give a statement of the kinds and quantities of fish taken ODally ofVthe coast of your State from the years 1854 to 1872, inelu- Tel It you can do this please do so; ami if not, please state where it information can be procured. I would refer you to the reports of Inspector General of the State, II you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of American tlsheries which are to be thrown open to Canadian ttsher- iiuder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington ! Please state luiu detail, showing the difl'ereut kinds of fish, and the value of each not able to state 8. W'jat quantity and value of each kind of fish are annually taken Canadian lishermen, and what by American fishermen, in the waters tbei'oasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty \Viiihin{,'t()ii f liureau of Statistics Washington D. U, •• I'oCauadian fishermen procure bait or supplies in the waters of ti^tate? and if so, to what extent and value? for all their Bait : tilt' mackerel fisheries. 1" What is the probable annual value to Canadian fishermen in being *tii procure bait, to land and dry their nets, and to repack and cure itiish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than [Ufliitaiiit'd in the Treaty of Washington ? unable to State Will the admission of Canadian fishermen to our inshore fisheries *iiiiy (lelriinent or hiiulerance to the profitable pursuit of these piii^liy our own fishermen ; and if so, in what manner, and to what ^utaiiimallY J No, except n»ore competition h' ^Miat number of Canadian vessels and boats are engaged in the Tfricsof your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the pi of men employed upon I lem ? Should say about 1"> vessels I''' ^t lilt' lisheries pursued by American fishermeu otf the Atlantic 'If ^M vai # ■'F^ ^sji*.,: •II ■ V. '-' ' 3086 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. coasts of the British North American Provinces, what pro])oi tion cou- sists of the deep-sea fisheries, and what proportion of the iu short fisheries ! Should think about 80 per cent are deep sea fisheries. 14. For what description of flsh do American fisbernieu pursue the in-shorc fisheries I Mackerel late in the year 15. If you state that the in shore fisheries are ])ursuo(l wliolly or chiefly for mackerel, please state what proportion of niackertl is taken within the in-shore limits, and what i)roportion is taken outside of tlm in-shore limits! not one tenth part of the mackerel taken at the Buvm St. Lawrence are taken within the inshore limits 16. Is not much the larger quantity of mackerel caught by Amorican fishermen off tbe coasts of British America taken outside the in shorf limits ; and in the summer season especially, are not mackerel geucrallv found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not witbiii shore ? Yes 17. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American lisheruuii to fish in Colonial in-shore waters? No. IS. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when tishinir in- shore, alongside a fleet of American fisbing-vessels, from which laroi quantities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone ? JV* 19. What is the best bait for the mackerel, and where is it principal! tauen ? How much of it is taken within tbree miles of the shore, aiijj what is the annual value to the United States, or to the I'.ritish Vm inces, as the case may be, to take such bait within tliree miles of tin shore ? Pogie or Menhaden, an American fish, taken off Coast of U, S, Value of this fishery about $1,000,000 yearly L'O. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on fioin yoi State or district, the cost of fitting out, equipping, turnishing, and ma ning a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by tbe average length ihe cruise. State as far as possible, in detail the elements which go make up the cost of taking and delivering a full cargo and of returuiui to the home port. Pogie fishing, Crew 10 men cost of Salt Bbls. pn visions d'cc $400, time 3 weeks maclxrl fishing about the same Cost a voyage to Grand Banks of a Schooner of 80 tons about $i'700, fur term of 2 mos or 10 weeks 21. When you have fully answered question 20, please answer tl same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and mauui from tbe Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so ti as you are able to do so. If you state tbat there is any diflfereiice tween the cost of the Canadian and tbe cost of the American vessel these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for About one half what it costs to fit an American vessel * 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capaci with the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Qi bee, or Prince Edward Island, or \^ith either, and if eitiier, with wli of these fisheries ? 20 years all of them 23. What kind of flsh frequent the waters of those coasts nbicli to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of Treaty of Washington I Codfish — Halibut & Mackerel 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (say ft from 1854 to 1872 inclusive) of the fisheries which are so to be tli open to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual valm the catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles tant from the shore ; please state these facts in detail. Cannot give data required Should think tbat the Deep Sea fisheries three from Shore were worth $2000,000 00 less cost of taking them 31, \V teri|)ti( itkiid 3:',Foi| iwnng, . 'ool.v uiiirl feotlie 33. Ify States on [*w iiudei 1 ann ii and fii Udder ^y da '^'- Tile , AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3087 >ri(!an lisliermen 2o. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within three miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada *. If so, to what extent, and what is the value ? Yes $200,000 worth a year 26. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies in the ports of tlie Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisions, and various article for the use of the men engaged in the fisheries ? If so. in what ports, and to what extent ? And, if that is the case, is it riotau advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fts!iing-ves- sflsof the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing sea- miif Explain why it is .so, and estimate, if you can, the money- value of tlmt advantage. Yes, 10 years ago about all of the American fleet reiittwl ill the Straits of Canso, N. S, and their trade was a great as- sistauce to the natives there, say 8500,000 •1', Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishing-vos- sels yearly engage in the fisheries ol!" tbe Atlantic coasts of the Hiitish >orth American Provinces, (excluding Newfoundland,) both without and within the three-mile limit? If so, state how many vessels are .so eiipijjeil, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of men employwl annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken there, fliatisthe annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is the pro- |iortioii,or probable j>roportion, in your Judgment, of theamountof such liitch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of the amount take;i outside of the three-mile limit ? 700 Vessels, total tonnage, |.w,iH)0 tons, costing about $00 per ton about 10,000 men employed and the value of the products of the fisheries of this district for the year eudiiicf Dec. 31, 1872 was valued at $3,4:37,000,— Gross. Wiiat i)ercentage of value, if any, is, in your judgment, added to j rte pi'oflts of a voyage by the privilege to fish within three marine miles oftlie coast; whence is such profit derived; and in what does it cou- 1 (>t ! not much, not over 5 per cent :",!. Do the American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington jany valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack II, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, what Ure those rights, and what do you estimate them to be worth annually, I io the aggregate? no, I consider we had those right always 3(1. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the fishi!ig clauses are Iwiicerned, more, or quite as, beneficial to the people of the British Ikth American Provinces as to the people of the United States ? Yes i§IR, 31, What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all Iteriptions which are annually shipped to the United States ? No date Ukand 32. For all No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel, for the larger part of the fat lierriug, and for all No. 1 salmon, does not the United States attbrd the jMly market. No, mey of their fish are exported direct to foreign coun- jtrics other than the U. S, I *5, If you know what amount of duties is annually paid to the United jStates on fish and fish-oil imported from Canada, which are to be made jfw iiuder the provisions of the Treaty of Washington, please state Itlieai annually, and by classes, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Cannot By 3i If you know what amount of duties is annually paid in Canada on eliaud tish-oil imported from the United States, which are to be made f under the provisions of the said Treaty, please state them annually, "tl by elas.ses, from 1854 to 1872, inclusive. Cannot Say H The object of these inquiries is to ascertain whether the rights in i<0 '-.^:r'^-'>^"*^^ 3088 AWARD OF THE FISHEBY COMMISSION. respect of flsbing, and fishermen, and fish, which were granted to Great Britain by the Treaty of Washington, are or are not a just equivalent for the rights in those respects which were granted by said Treaty to the United States. If you Ijnow anything bearing upon tins subject which you have not already stated in reply to previous questions, please state it as fully as if you had been specially inquired of in respect of it. Gloucester, Mass. June 11, 1873, FRED. GERRING part owner of Six fishing Vessels, 20 years engage I in the tishiiig business, State of Massachusetts ) County of Essex i Gloucester June 2l8t 1873 Then personally appean-d the above named Frederic Gerring and made oath that the foregoing statements by him subscribed, are true to the best of bis knowledge and belief. Before me (Seal.) DAVIT) ^Y. LOW, Xotary Public. No. 30. ss. [confidential.] QUESTIONS POUNDED STATES. RESPECTING THE TO , ON FISHERIES BEHALF OF TO BE PRO. TUB UNITED] 1. What is you name and age, and in what town and State do vouj reside ? Frederick G. Wonson of Gloucester, Essex Co, Mass 2. What opportunities have you had for becoming acquainted with 1 the American and Canadian Atlantic sea-fisheries, and the value of the) catch of the ditt'erent kinds of fish? Have been practically engaged, [ both as Fisherman, and owner for the past twenty two years, am now J fitting fourteen vessels 3. Can you give the names of other persons in your neighborhood! who have also bad the opportunity of obtaining similar information ? If| so, please give some such name. F Gerring Walen & Co and others 4. A copy of the Treaty beitween Great Britain and the United States known as the Treaty of Washington, is hereto annexed. Will youex^ amine articles 18 to 22 inclusive, and state that you have done sof have examined articles 18 to 22 5. What kinds of fish frequent the waters of your State, especial those which are to be thrown open to the Canadian lisliernien under tb« provisions of the Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel, Herring PogieS|j Codfish &c, 6. Can you give a statement of the kinds and quantities of tish takeij annually oft the coast of your State from the years 18.14 to 187-, iiich^ sive ? If you can do this, please do so ; and if not, please state when that information can be procured, see Report Inspector General Fish State of Mass 7. If you are able to do so, will you state the amount and value of thj American fisheries which ^iro to be thrown open to Canadian lisliprme under the provisions of the Treaty of W^ashington ? Please state thej in detail, showing the difterent kinds of fish, and the value of each kiuj Shore, Menhadn fishery $2,000,000.00 I Shore, Mackerel fishery 81,500,000 r AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3089 TbeMnckerel caught oft' the New England Coast have been worth from 3 too dollars more per Barrel than the Bay of St Lawrence of the same 8, What quantity and value of each kind of ftsli are annually taken by f^Qgdian flsliermen, and what by American tislierincMi, in the waters oif tiiecoasts which are to be thrown open to competition by the Treaty of Wiisbingtoii f The Canadians. have not engaged in the American fish- fries to any extent they have hardly had enterprise sufficient to take the (isli ill tlier own waters. 9, Do Canadian fishermen procure bait 'or supplies in the waters of Tour State? and if so, to what extent and value? Pogie Bait is ob- Uiiied by them 111. What is the probable annual value to Canadian flshermen in being able to procure bait, to land aiul «lry their nets, and to repack and cure tlifir tish on the coasts of your State, without any other restriction than tliat contained in the Treaty of Washington f Their own enterprise will (iHcrmine that 11. Will tlie admission of Canadian flshermen to our in shore fisheries i cause any detriment or hinderjince to the profitable pursuit of these lyieriesby our own fishermen; and if so, in what manner, and to what nteiit annually ? Do not think that it would attect us materially other I tbiiii they will have cheap vessels & there will be more competition L'. What number of Canadian vessels aiul boats are engaged in the I {slieries ot your State, and what are their tonnage and value, and the I iiuinber of men employed upon them I Do not know 13. Of the fisheries jmrsued by American fishermen off the Atlantic Icoastsof the British North American Provinces, what proportion con- sists of the deep sea fisheries, and what proportion of the in-shore fish- erifst Principally deep sea fishing until late in the fall say ^g is out- 1 side of 5 miles. 14. For what description of fish do American fishermen pursue the IJD sliore flshories f Mackerel 15. If yon state that the in-shore fisheries are pursued wholly or chiefly Ik mackerel, please state what proportion of mackerel is taken within |tlie ill shore limits and what proportion is taken outside of the in-shore nits. Shonld not think that more than one fifth part are taken within jtliree mile limit, or about from 12 to 20,000 Bbis C. Is not mu(!h the larger quantity of mackerel caught by Ameri- Itan fishermen oft' the coasts of British America taken outside the in- Itlore limits ; and in the summer season especially are not mackerel Ipcrally found on the banks, in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and not I'itliiu shore ? Yes ; on banks Bradly and Orphan, and around the Hagiialen Islands li. Are Colonial fishermen injured by permitting American fishermen ofish in Colonial inshore waters ? 1 do not think they are on the con- rary, I believe they are benefitted 18. Are not more fish caught by Colonial fishermen, when fi-shing in- W, alongside a fleet of 'American fishing-vessels, from which large iMiitities of bait are thrown out, than when fishing alone? There is I W. What is the best bait for mackerel, and where is it i>rincipally Rii! Uow much of it is taken within three miles of the shore, and ^atisthe annual value to the United States, or to the British Prov- es, as the case may be, to take such bait within three miles of the Pogies — which are taken on the New England shores only — ^'ukthe value of the Pogie fishery cannot be less than two millions of Tlars. 194 p ;i,;tS.^ ■i--'-'^^ . * ' . 1; \ >H *" 1- , »''■ [ :■» i .1 ^' 4! ' m ■ 1. 'J f- '^¥^;- '.L^A- .>-.<»*?:•' mi Ijfl m li# m'^^t 3090 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 20. Please state as to each class of fisheries carried on from voar State or district, the cost of titting out, equipping, fiirnishiiij,', and man- ning a vessel for carrying it on, estimating it by the avfiaye length of the cruise. State, as far as possible, in detail the eh'n^eiit.s which m to make up the cr .4t of taking and delivering a full car^^o, and of re. turning to the home port. Generally the crews of the Poyie (iatchers consist of about 10 men each — time about 3 weeks per trip— cost ^4(ki— Bank fishing $400 per month — this includes barrels, salt, oo.st o» fillinr Insurance, &c. Mackerel fishing "' 21. When you have fully* answered question 20, please answer tlie same questions as to vessels fitted out, equipped, furnished, and manned from the Dominion of Canada, including Prince Edward Island, so far as you are able to do so. If you state that there is any differeiice !>»>. tween the cost of the Canadian and the cost of the American vessel iu these respects, explain what the difference is and the reason for it. Should think that the Canadians Could prosecute th e tisiieries at one- half the expense we could — owing to their much cheaper vessels cheaper men and chea|)er grub, 22. Are you acquainted, and for how long, and in what capacity, witti I the fisheries on the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswiitk, (^Jnebei, or Psince Edward Island, or with either, and if either, with which of these] fisheries? Am acquainted with all kinds. 23. What kind of fish frequent the waters of those coasts which are! to be thrown open to American fishermen under the provisions of tbe| Treaty of Washington ? Mackerel principally 24. Please state in detail the amount and the annual value (sav fmial 1854 to 1872, inclusive,) of the fisheries which are so to be thrown opal to American fishermen ; also the amount and the annual value of the catch in the adjacent waters which are more than three miles distant from the shore; please state these facts in detail. 25. Do American fishermen procure bait in the waters within tlire miles of the coast of the Dominion of Canada ; if so, to what extent and what is the value ? American fishermen buy bait of Canadians tq a large extent, the value of which must be considerable, say ^'M)0 20. Do not the American fishermen purchase supplies iu the |)ort8( the Dominion of Canada, including bait, ice, salt, barrels, provisioiiaj and various articles for the use of the men engaged iu the fisheries; ' so, in what ports, and to what extent? And, if that is the case, isi not an advantage to the ports of the Dominion to have the fishing veij sels of the United States in their neighborhood during the fishing seij sou? Explain why it is so, and estimate, if you can, the money vala of that advantage. They do purchase supplies to a great extent^ should think the fleet would average each $500, at Charlottetown,P.r I., Canso Strait, and others, and is of immense value to these place] During reciprocity nearly all the American fleets refitted at those pon iu some cases amounting to $1000 or $1500, each vessel 27. Have you any knowledge of how many United States fishin vessels yearly engage in the fisheries off the Atlantic coasts of the Bii ish North Americau Provinces, (excluding Newfouudlaud,) both witiio and within the three-mile limit? If so, state how many vessels are j engaged, what is the value of their tonnage, what is the number of i employed annually on such vessels, what sorts of fish are taken tbed what is the annual value of all the fish so caught, and what is tliepf portion, or probable proportion, in your judgment, of the amouiitf such catch taken within three miles of the British coast, and of amount taken outside ot the three-mile limit ? Should think about I AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3091 TfgMls are ongnged with a total tonna(;e 420,000 tons — about 60 tons each worth about $00, per ton— $2,5l»0,000. % What perceiitajje of value, if any, is, in .vonr ju<1{!rment, added to the |troHt« of a voyage by the privilege to fish within tlnee marine tniles ot'tlie coast; whence is Huch protit derived; and in wliat does it eon- Djst! Do not think the privilege to tish within 3 miles is of any value. Official annoyance is what we complain of :1). Do tiie American fishermen gain under the Treaty of Washington any valuable rights of landing to dry nets and cure fish, or to repack them, or to transship cargoes, which were not theirs before ; if so, what tiv those ri$>lits, ami what do you estimate them to be worth annually, ill the aggregate f I think we do not gain any rights of any value and the Canadians will be greatly benefitted by the treaty. 30. Is not the Treaty of Washington, so far as the tishing clauses are cfliH'crned, more, or quite as, beneticial to the peo|)le of the liritish Sorth Am«'ri(!an I'rovinces as to the peoi>le of the United States ? The Canadians will have the most benittt 31, What is the amount and value of colonial cargoes of fish of all de- leriittions which are annually shipped to the United States If Do not know 3:', For all No. 1 an( k lit ■iM, .,»*.:*■' ..^j-:^.^: 3094 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. other branches of marine business full employment for their iiioncv and have been unwilling to engage in a business paying so poor retuiim at the fisheries — The Nova Scotians who have at their own doors what iiii«lit Itenn im- mense source of wealth have been lacking an available out let tor tlie surplus product of their fisheries beyond that which their own tnnrketH supply, but under the existing state of affairs between the riiited fStates and Great Britain this want is fully met — Siuce the autiiiiin of 1.S7:{ the Grand Banks Codfishery has been as a whole unproductive iind hiuIi stocks of fish as the American vessels have produced havt* l)cen iIId- ])Osed of without difHculty, but in the event of a large catch wlilch would fill all the markets ot our own to overfiowing the presence ot a liiri;e auiount of English fish thrown into the market on equal tooting with our owu and at greatly reduced cost of production from our own, tlicichv enabling them to be sold at a profit to their owners when American tisii would have to be sacrificed, would be a blow of great severity to the en- tire N«»w England Codfishery — At the present time there are in our market a greater number tlinn usual of English parties in pursuit of achea|)classof fishing schooners, and I have known within the past year of several instances in which ves- sels have been sold to parties from the Provinces to be eniploved intlie codfisliiug business — I consider that by means of the new treaty between the United States and Great Britain the fishing interests of tjie Biitisli Provinces have received a most favorable and im])ortant inipuUe. ALFliED MANSFIELD COMMONWEALTH OP MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss Gloucester Dec 29th is?') Then personally appeared the above named Alfred Mansfield to me known and made oath that all the foregoing statements by him sub scribed are true so far as they depend upon his own knowled^reandiij lar as they depend upon information and belief he believes tluu tu I true — — before me — DAVID W. LOW (Seal.) Notary PiiMk No. 33. I George Steele of Gloucester in the county of Essex and Coinninn| wealth of Massachusetts being duly sworn doth depose and say 1 aa and tor the last 27 years have been engaged in the fisliinfj busiiies^ owning and fitting out vessels for the cod and mackerel fisheries on tb North American coast. My vessels have been both on the coasts of tb British provinces and of the United States. I had last year in alleleve vesseles. The codfishery is wholly a deep sea fishery no cod are caught witbj three miles of the shore. The free fishery clauses of the treaty art tiierf fore of no value to the United States fishermen engaged in this tutc Nor do the cod fishermen catch their owu bait, they carry as bait tro home salt and fresh herring; they also to some extent buy fresh haitj the provinces herring or squid. The effect on the codfish business of allowing free importations ini the United States has been and must continue to be very beueticiidj the provinces, for they find in the United States their chief luarket f AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 8095 wocotlfi.sli — tbeir small codfish go to tlie West Indies and is con- sumed at boine. Tlitffflect un the codflsheries of the Uniteil States is to brins: them into severe competition with the Canadians who by reason of tlie greater ebfapiiess of building and equipping vesselis in whieii tliey have an tdraiitiige over us of from 25 to 50 percent could if they had equal capital aiui enterprise monopolise the business to the exclusion of our offiifisbermen. Tlie mackerel are the only fish caught at all in shore, the relative im- portiiMce of mackerel in the trand upon information and belief he believes th*im to be true. -l)efore me— DAVID W. LOW (Seal.) Notary Public No. 34. ISylvanus Smith of Gloucester in the county of Essex and Common- health of Massachusetts being duly sworn depose and say that I am Ikty seven years old and am a member of the firm of Smith and Gott, jMrtirmowues seventeen (17) vessels I have been engaged in the fish- liii? busiuess twenty eight years, seventeen years as master of a vessel jiml eleven years on shore fitting out vessels for the cod and mackerel lislieries— Last yearonly two outof our whole fleet were engaged in fishing l«ff the Canadian coast — No portion of all the catch last year was taken Ibhore— In 1874 we had five vessels in Canadian Waters and I should jtok about one eighth part of the fish caught were taken within three |»ibof the shore — In 1873 we had six vessels in Canadian Waters and wy few iish were taken inshore — For the last eight years the mackerel Wiigoffthe coast of Canada has steadily decreased and become less ^Stable and fewer and fewer vessels are sent there each year — Most 'the mackerel caught are taken on the United States coast by means ill ad^ !ir fa '^^.■■U^'% 8096 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. of HPine8 — flsbiiif? for mackerel with Hcinos cannot be protltahly ciirrieil on in Canudlan Waters on auconnt of the rout^hnesH of the liottorn ami 8houhieN8 of the water, for this reason American ti.sli ('niiatliiius bought from the American tishermen to a great extent — Now Ity thf Treaty they have equal facilities with us for procuring it— Wt- Itny iiuin the Canadians herring and small n)ack«M'cl to use on the li.iiikstui cod bait; Our tirm has paid as much as $2U0(M)0 the past .season fur this alone — We often repair and relit our vessels in the Proyjnees iimclms. ing supplies &c and have paid as much as ^oOOy^^ for one ship tiuif— I consider the right to land and dry nets cure tlr>h &c on the Canadian shores as of no value — I have never had any of my vessels land tor this purpose nor have lever known of any other vessels doinj^so— During the past season very few vessels from this town not niorc ihiin foity out of three hundred and fifty tished in the Gulf of St Lawit'iite and these only for two or three months — No fish are ever exported fronj the United States to the |>ro\ incis while all their large cod and the best quality of their niackeicl are sent bei^: the only lisb for which there is a market iu the provinces are ilie suiall cod and poorer grades of mackerel — I think that the tishermen of the United States will he injuretl by the Treaty of Washington — The Canadians can build ships chea|)er thmi the An>ericans and by the free clause of the Treaty they can carry ami in some cases have carried their llsh directly to the Aujerican ports and sold them there — Under the old Keciprocity Treaty the Canadian tishiiig j fleet increased largely but us soon as the repeal of the treaty preyeiited their taking their fish into the United States free of duty, it became so | unprotitable that it was to a great extent given up and vessels which j they had begun building for the fishing business were left untinislied on the stocks — Since the present Treaty has taken effect, the business hasj increased very largely in the Provinces — 1 consider the inshore fisheries of little value, wo send few vessels I and they take few fish — All the value of the treaty to our flslienneii is the right to traid, buy bait &c unmolested and if we could be protected! in this, we should much prefer and desire the old tariff— this ri;j;ht to} trade we have always claimed but it has been denied to us and we havoj been harassed in every way — SYLVAN US SMITH COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss Gloucester Dec 2Sth 1875 Then personally appeared the above named Sylvanus Smith to ma known and made oath that all the foregoing statements by bim suIj scribed are true so far as they depend upon bis own knowledge ami ad far as they depend upon information and belief he believes them to bej true — before me — (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW li^otary Public No. 35. I, Morris Whelen of Gloucester in the County of Essex and Coh nionwealth of Massachusetts, being duly sworn do depose and say, tha I have been twenty-two years engaged in fishing for mackerel. I lii*^ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3097 btfnmnstor of a vesHcl fortlie Inst flfleeii .venrs. Most of the time 1 Imvo Ushetliii tli«^ (i^iilf of 8t Liiwrfiiue, I hiiv«> iti all tliit* tiiiio (!aiit;ht vory few ti!
  • r(;ies from Gloucester to use fur this ))ni'|>use — I bive never lK)U);ht any supplies from the Canadians. The only thing lliatl liiive ever procured from the shore has been water. For the last few years numy more Hsh have been taken otV the Anieri- can shores than in Canadian waters. 1 should think the proportion was Ku to uue 1 have generally tished off the Magdalen Island MAURIS WUELEX COMMONVVEALTU OF MASSACHUSETTS g;;;"*!*^ ■• , »M- EiisEX ss Gloucester Dec liDtli 1875 Tht'ii personally appeared the above namert'the coast ot'Canadti — fn 18U0 w« wnt Hoven veMsels out of utlcHt of KiKlit Hail to HritiHli waterH; In lS(i7 the same nutnlMT wen* Kent there; In 1808 fonr vesselH — In 18l{9 tliive vohmwIs In 1S70 tour vch. 8el«, 1871 three vesselH, 1872 only two vesHelH with an incri'iis*' oi i|,.,,t to ten mill — 1873 four veHselH, 1874 with an inureaHe of lici't to twtlvt' 8ail we Hcnt only four vesHelH- Since the Treaty we have uned the inHhoro flHiierie.s von littli- dihI our prinoipal catch has been at the Magdalen Islands and on tlu* \U\\U — For tlie last two years nearly all our vessels uoinj; to the Hanks of Newfounhermen. I think the right of fishermen of either nation under the treaty to] land dry nets &c on the shores of the other, amounts to nothing on either side, All fishing vessels are now in the habit of curing all tliei^ fish at the home ports — During the period of the former Reciprocity Treaty and since tli^ Treaty of Washington, the importations of fish into the United Statei from the Provinces have been very large and have materially iritHfeie( with the profits of our fishermen, this is especially the case withtb mackerel almost all of which, that are caught by the Canudiaus ar| sent into the United States for sale — Also all their large codtisli wi sold in the United States as they have a market for the small cod" at home — All their fat herring and No. I salmon are sold in the I'uitH States— , I consider the Treaty of Washington of much more value to theProj inces than to the United States — I should prefer the old duty on tiJ and would be willing to give up all our rights of inshore fisheries iiinij the Treaty, if the tariff could be renewed — This conclusion is the resu of four years— experience under the Treaty of Wasbingtou and also i ▲WARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3099 der the wliolo of the former Ueclproolty Treaty Ah nil veHsels can bo liiijlr, «>qiii|)|>«>ii and inHiiiiHl in the colonieH for a third lesM thiin in the liiittHi Stittt's — coiiMeqnt'ntly if there weruiiH many colonial tisherMien as Anierieaii and they had eqnal Nkill and indnstry they cunid entirely drive tlit^ American tlshermen out of the l»usineH8 — JAMK8 G. TAUU COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS KSSKX 88 (iLOUCESTER Dec 2L»d 1.S75 Tbfii personally appeared the al)ovenameose and say, that I am twenty six years old and have been engaged in the iish- m business for the last thirteen years during tlie last live years [have iH'cn master of a vess«'l — [ have been engaged in lisliing for BiKkerel in the liay of St Lawrence every year but two, and since the Treaty has come into effect have been iu the Bay ea'ih year — In 11^74 during the month of July 1 fished in shore to some extent may have taken from 150 to 2U0 barrels out of 700 n)y whole catch liirtiiat trip. In 1875 Ushed near the Magdalen Islands and caught very tow inshore — Out of my last three trii)8 in which my whole catch lasllKN) barrells I caught not uutre than !iOO barrels inshore — Most of ibetish taken inshore are caught by the Canadians from small boats Uiuguiit from the shore and returning each tlay with their tish. They \m nse with profit this fishery where in nmny cases our large fishing hessels could not go. This inshore fishery is f comparatively little valiH'to us, We would be much better off" without this right and with tlieuld duty of $2 per barrel on fish imported from Cana "-^ ■U^US' i^ki 4MK - -f-iy*; I* ■■■•^■^ •%m<*"^: 3100 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. fonH>, it wtiH tlio cuHtotn tlien to trniiHliip the fisli mid hoikI them bnci; by I'n'iKlitJTs, but this is not doiio now each vM'ssel carries hmk its own catch to (lioiiucHtcr — American vcsscIh piirchaHC Hupplies trom tliH Canadians to a {<;rcat extent, t'urnisliin;; snpplieHand sliippin^r „„ \^^y^^^.^^ onr vessels as iiands tor a iisiiin^ trip are tlie principal o(!cii]Kitii)nsot' the people at Canso. Last year I spent $50,00 for supplies iImmc, ainl bave probably averaged that antonnt each year — (-anadiaiis can prose. cnte the lisherieH in their \vat«^rs witli nuich less ex|)ense tliaii \vt> can, they can build their vessels one-third cheaper, their crews },'(» lor less ill all (/anadian vessels the skippers per c»«l tl>Pi« ^W'k I carries Imck its own w Hupi»li«'s Irom U\m iiicipul ocriritiitionsof or supplit's tlnMc, ;iml -(1i»iiiuliai\sfiiii |ii()-.t'- I'XiM'iise tliiin we cm. lieir cn'WH },'o tor less, is iisst'Hst'tl anion;: tlin »\v that tlH^ Anifricuu m«U our tislinint'n and the Treaty, tlu'ir share OllN. K. ClOKMAN' I John ( I DM" 111 to me stateint'iits by him sub- lelief — ,Avn) w. \m unty of Essex Jin.l Com. (lot"lei»>«»' '*""' *^'*>' •'"" lieries for tl»e last seven , ,.„rs-l have lisl.ed v-tiy , further mj was before the seme nsh-l ivo known of seine lishmgl „ uusuceessful the wate 1 ', ,„.ts— I have never soltll its bein^j «lom' to a lire^ij lenu-nhmlen which IS noB U herring whieh isH lave never rei)iu-laMl an« ot eonsiiUM- the Hans, in Va,;oitnsedtohe.H 'tothe<'-at.aaiunsns«j ,, 1 have paid as nuuli.»| Lt to the Can.ul^>"H Iroftts-Oana.hiu. ^^H leen hero as they h ilnj Ich higher prices ht 1 Teheaperthanvvecrt'l'l AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3101 for from ir)0 to $ir> n trip, Mhilo wo pay from $100 to $200 per man, llinstliey ean uiidor sell and make a jirollt where we (U)nl(l not liv«^ — NICHOLAS WAltKKN COMMONWEALTH OF MASSA(3HIJSKTTH FssKX ss (iLotiOKSTKU .lany -'(Mh 1H70 Then jiersonally appeared the abovenanied Nij'Jiohis Warien to mo l^iirtwii atiAV1I) W. LOW Xotary I'uhlio. No. 40. I lleniy Hardy of (}lou<;ester In the (bounty of Essex an(Jlouc«ister and sold their fish there jfreen— Canadians uso I as hail herring which they catch in their own waters but this is a poor -and when they can they procure menhaden bait froiii us — Anu-ri- [taii Vessels spend a jjreat deal ear from July to NovemlKT. Since 1872 I have used the inshore flslieries very little, in all have not taken more than five barrels inshore — I can always do much better oil' shore — Last year there were very few Gloucester vessels in the liiiy not more than forty, most of the others were engaged in seine fishing otf our own coast which is very valuable and productive — The Bay catdi lias not j been near so heavy for ihe last five years as before and tor tins reason we send fewer vessels each year to the Bay. The seine fishery lias been | tried in the Bay but has been unsuccessful the water is shallow and the mackerel do not school as they do off our coast — Canadians import men- baden bait from the United States to some extent, the menhaden isuotj found north of Cape Sable, fresh herring is used by Cajiiuliuns some- what but it is an inferior sort of bait and they much prefer menhadenj when they can get it. I never have used the right under the treaty to| land and repack fish &c I do not consider it of any value— I have pur- chased 8up|)lie8and refitted in Canadian ports, several times spent $:'J0| — in one season and once paid $700 — for refitting my vessel Anierieaiis are charged very high prices for every thing purchased — They can tiuildl their vessels much cheaper and by paying their crews much less theyl can carry on the business at much less cost and as by tlie treaty they can send their fish here free, they are enabled to make a profit wher^ our fishermen could not live — I consider the treaty of much benefit to the Canadians and of littl^ value to us; The only use to us, is that we are allowed to buy pro visions &c without hinderance, this right was always ours, but wewer prevented and driven away on the ground that it was preparing fish— JOHN E. SAUNDERS COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss Gloucester Jan 26th 1876 , Then personally appeared theabovenamed John Saunders to me know and made oath that all the foregoing statements subscribed by him »p true as far as they depend upon his own knowledge and as fur as tbt)| depend upon information and belief he believes them to be true- before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary Fu AWARD CF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 42. 3103 1 Richard Hamiari of Glouccvstcr in the County of Essex and Com- jionwealtb of Massp.cliusetts being duly sworn do depose and say that lam forty three years ohl, have been on Ashing trips evor since I was ii1h)V, for the last eigliteen years master of a vesaell. Moat every year from July to November have been mackerel fishing sometimes all the lear— For the last ten years have fished principally around the Mapda- itn Islands I have fished in the Bay both within and without three mile limit but iiiive caught most fish offshore — Since 1872 I have used the inshore flsheries to some extent. The catch inshore seemed much poorer tiiiiii ffbeii I fished before inshore during the Reciprocity Treaty — The Bay fishery has been very poor for last five years, the fish are few and poor, the price of Bay mackerel has been about $5 less than the Ameri- faii mackerel — only few Gloucester vessels from forty to filty were iu the Bay last year, ten years ago all the vessels fished there but by rea- son of the fewness of the fish they have left it and now fish on the American sbores with a seine — I have seen vessels in the Bay fisl-'iig with seines but they had no luck and tore or lost their seines — 1 have jold menhaden bait to the Canadians a few barrels each year, they im- port a great deal of this bait from the United States — now by the Treaty they can come here and catch this bait themselves, to my own knowl- I etliri' there have been two or three vessels here from Yarmouth or Argyle [wliieh came to catch pogiea for use in the Bay — I have bought cod bait. salt Hues &c from the Canadians have paid $125 — gold for codl>ait and jisiimch as $500 for refitting my vessel in one summer — I have under j tlie clause of the treaty, landed mackerel transhipped it and sent them iiiie by steamer, but there is not any gain or benefit procured by doing .the expense is much greater than if I had taken the fish home in my Iowa vessel I consider the right of the Canadians to sen«l their fish in Ifreeot' duty and sell them in the United States worth a great deal more jlothem, than anything we shall gain by the treaty 1 have known Cana- Ifai vessels to land their small fish at home where there is a market for Ithn, and then taking the larger ones to the United States and selling Itlicni there to more advantage — Canadians can use the inshore fishery Itoimicli more advantage than we can, they go out in small boats ffom Itlie shore and can fish near shore where our vessel cannot go — Prices of |iackt'rel have been much lower during the past year than before and lourflsbermen have lost money — The only benefit of the treaty to us iBtlie use of the harbors without molestation and being permitted to |kT provisions &c the itishore fisheries we cannot use to any profit — The right to send in fish free of duty is of much more value to the Canadians than any rights we have received or will receive under the Itey; this is my experience of four years under this and six under the Islil Treaty— KICHAKD HANNAN COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. pSEx ss— Gloucester, Jan 28th 1876 I Iheii personally appeared before ?ne the abovenamed Richard Hanna We known and made oath that all the foregoing statements by him ^feciibed are true as far as they depend upon his own knowledge and ifar as tbey depend upon information aud belief he believes them to be '"e-before me — (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary Pullio m 1 '^^^ 'J^^*Im- 3104 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 43. This is to certify, That the undersigned Stephen B. Morey have been engaged in the fishing business, for the past thirty years, at De^f Isle, and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in effect our vessels have been employed as follows: Namely since 1871 ' No. of Vessels employed five (5) 11 men to each Vessel No. of Trips made six trips yearly each year No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence ^JJ^ ^^^^ ^^jjj ^ ^^^ "^"^ No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. 1872 1873 1871 1S75 187() Lawrence .. 00 420 00 (ill on No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iuclud- \ ing Magdalene Islands None caught on Bradly Orphan & Magdalenes I Average value of Vessels each .$,j5(io Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c .^jjiki } Average value of Insurance 8 j)er cent on vessel & outfits yearly Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wage- per iin).....ji:i4| Average value of Commissions, &c 220$ to each Captain yearly .Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing,! including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore I'joujj Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt.J Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, lkt\ per bbl $:'.; Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. notliiii^ Total value of Mackerel do notliiiij No 1 No L' Noi Average market value of American Shore Mackerel . . ' $17 m r> Average market value of Bay Mackerel $11.50 ijS fjw Average earnings of the operative fisherman per year !*:',iJ^ Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supiilie Amount paid to British fishermen for herriug J40 Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Western Lahave Bauij Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape Uenry to xVuiicosI Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Actual value of Mackerel in the water before taken Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Americ^ fisheries Early iu going fishing I used the waters of the Bay of St Lawrence; Later in life iuthe same waters I used to go mackereliiigand mailesoa fair Trips with the Jig. Since 1807 I have abandoned the fislieriesj the Bay of St Lawrence only Sending there in 1873 and my ves-^els ha l>een engaged in Fishing with trawls — and Seining mackerel on oiu Slioi So far as American fishermen are concerned our vessels havegivinf the Bay of St Lawrence — and regard it as an entire failure . s. B. mm AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3105 Morey bave •cars, at [)m bt'cn ill effect, i 1871 1S74 1875 ISTG 00 m m 1874 187') 18TG 00 00 Oil ore, not iuclud- 1 & Magdiilenes 1 $;}500 ^24111) . & oiitlits yeuiiy 1 r per iii')....?lU| 11 Cai)tiuu yearly I 1 shore.... '^^Oi^M ting, &c. per cwtJ 85 ctl ting, salting, Sid iVb sliores.uolhiud UDtliin^ No i No - ^'«1 $11.50 88 i5.-if *2 id various suiipli^ 0 sh ,, „ ern Laliave liaui^ [eury to Aimco^ |ducting Amerii u of St Lawrenci fcncanle. Maine, and that since tlie Wasliington Treaty, vso called, has been liiieffeet, our vessels have been employed as follows : viz. since 1S71 k of Vessels employed 3, 15 men to each vessel [k of Trips luade live trips each vear 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1870 Ik iittrii)s to Bav St. Lawrence 3 2 0 0 0 0 IkofUanolsof Mackerel from Bay St. > 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1870 Liwrenec ....J 754 854 0000 |k of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Maj,'(laleii Islands all caught a Magdalens |iv«;in;e value of vessels each $4000. jAverajie value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c §3000. livenijie Value of Insurance 10% on vessel «& outlits yearly jivera^'e value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. .$37.50 perage value of Commissions, «fcc .$175. Awage value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing iiiehuling expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore $2000 faber of vessels lose none Nine of Vessels lost, including outfits falue of Fish lost fmiiber of Lives lost none lvalue of Fsh taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt. intal value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., [Krbbl $1.50 Ptal value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores, .nothing pi value of Mackerel do nothing 1 2 3 piageiuarket value of American Shore Mackerel . .$10.00 $12.00 $8.00 pge market value of Bay Mackerel $11.00 $7.00 $5.00 195 F i-^n^..*|.^_ m >,;**■ 3106 Average Avertige Amount Amount Amount Location AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. earnings of the operative fi.sherinen per year ^'^(^^ amount paiil in British ports for bait, ice, and various ,sni>i"lii. ' paid to British fishermen for lierring paid to Uritisli lisliernien as wages paid in British ports for repairs s frequented by American vessels for Fish • iiotliini' Grand, Western La IJave tS; o. of Trips to Bay Sf. Lawrence 1870 1871 1873 187.'5 1874 lS7,i 1870 iioue none none '2 none none none Xo, of IJanels of IMackerel from Bay St. Lawrence -hmVI No. ot P.iUTols of INIackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not inc.ltul- iiig Ma^Mliilene Islands all cunyht olf 8hore Average value of Vessels each , .JOOO.il Average value of outtits, Salt, Bait, &c L!()0(»ii Average value of Insurance 10 per cent on vessel & uutiits yearly Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. .'. .f^'Xli Average value of Commissions, &c 210 to each Capliiin .Neatly Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iiicludiiiff expenses of Clerks, Troprietors and labor on shore. . .I'lOUfj! Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost yiiniber of Lives lost Total value of Fish Taken, before curiug, splitting, salting, «S:c., per-cwt. 80 cents, Total value of Macke: el taken, before curing, splitting, salting.&c.,per bbl. 82.00 Total value of Fish takeu withiu three miles of British shores none Total value of Mackerel do none N 1 Xo '♦ Xn '} Average market value of American Shore ]\[ackerolo -.^ " V," "^ o Average Market value of Bay Mackerel 11 7 5 i Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 240 I Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sui»plies Amount paid to British fishermen for herring nothing Amount paid to British flshermeu as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs ILocatious frequented by American vessels for Fish Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel lActual value of Fish in the water, before taking lActual value of Mackerel in the water before taken [Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fisheries Wlien 1 Started in the fishing business Some thirty years Since — all Ifebwere caught on hand line »& Mackerel on the jig — Early in my Send- liii? to the bay of St Lawrence my vessels made some fares that left a jlivHlend to to the owners — I kept sending to the Bay & sustaining tees Hast Sent one vessel in 1873 and lost. The quantity fell olf and te quality was poor «& unsaleable of Bay fish — Seines now are used for luackerel vK: Trawls for fish — and I consider the right to (ish inshore con - ^iMiobeuelit at all on American fishermen »!v: no one here thinks of iig to the Bay J0n2^ STAPLES I Sworn and subscribed to before me, this sixth day of June 1S77 TUOMAS WAJUIEN Justice of the I'mce STATE OF MAINE. mmi, an. • Uutson B. Saunders, Clerk of the Supreme Judical Courts, in said *i"ty, certify that Thomas Warren Esquire is and was at the date of i-.x^;* 1-1 • it •ii 'Mi 'Zjti-L'*:^''-' 'my 3108 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. to his Certificate an actinjj Justice of the Peace, in and for said County duly coniiuissioucd and qualified to act as such, and that tlic sirrinuur^! to the jiaper annexed, imrporting to be his, is genuine, and tiiirt he is duly authorized and empowered, by the laws of said State, to take ar knowle 2 3 1 1 ,j No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 30!)3 Bbls. in six years average 172 Bbls pci- tiip No. of Barrels of IMackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiiclml ing Magdalene Islands mostly at MajidaliMuj Average value of Vessels each •« jii Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, tS:c 83000, a year to oadi vessel] Average value of insurance !• ' Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages i)er nio..>iir»j Average value of Commissions, &c 8-'()0. each vessel Average value of Wharves, Pish-houses, «S:c., for curing and ))a('kiii:J includiiig expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. .•'?:'ijii Number of Vessels lost i)i)| Value of Vessels lost, including outfits *l»iij Value of Fish lost *l"iiji Number of Lives lost iioul Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting tS:c. \wrm ijcq Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, dve bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores nonl Total value of Mackerel do i'^ Average market value oi American Shore Mackerel No 1 $10.00 No 2 $12.00 No o $S« Average market value of Bay Mackerel No 1 $12.00 No 2 $8.00 Xo3?0.] Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year S2:'iiJ| Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and varions siipplii $800. a }V Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs $500. in five yeij Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks Goorgi AWAUD OP THE FISIIEUY COMMISSION. 3109 r saitl County, t the siKUiUurc lud thill he is lite, ti) take ;«;■ tloriii'V, ami to mil afli\et\ ilif lis sixth (lay of n\ and seventy- :i)KU3 CUA. Lmatioiis frequented by American vessels for Mackerel l''roin Cape May to (Jiilf'ot St Lawreneo Actual value of Fish in the water, before takinjj notliiiifj Utiial value of ^Mackerel in Mio water, before taken nothing,' iiicts ns to changes in location and mode of conducting American tisiieries The Hay of St. liawrence fisheries have no^ pri)ved reniuneiative, or luviii?. hiVsiness our vessels have not paid tlieir expenses conseiiueiicely ffsliiill conliiie onr vessels to our own shores for mackerel and to the Dteaii Hanks for Cod Kisli, \Ve shall send no vessels to I'.ay of St. I„i«ri'iice this year. We use the IJiitish waters only to i)rocnrc bait iiiiiotlier snpplyes W II PEllIvIXS CHOKCE I'EllKINS ,u ^■ ^ Wm. II. i'EKIvlNS, Jr. CEOKCE 11 rKKKlNS 13 linn ot \\'\\m ^m ' the past Twt'iitv ^H Sffoiii and subscribed to beibre me, this thirty first ^Bjears— mostly caught at the Magdalenes 172 r.hlsiH'itup.Ml^'- shore, no! inrbulM Higl'Hyer: tl vit Ma'nlali'iKsB 1.19 bbls No. 1 .$12.50 fiXQVd.'iO ^ ' ' ^ sOoiiiM 47 " No. L' 9.50 .•i5(i.7o •■..'iVio"^''i<''i^'^*'™ '-' " No. ;{ 7.00 10.05 .S201G 10 '.i'HbIo es"per'nio..^WiM 73 bbls No. 1 $15 8000.1S -a-'OO each ve-s(>^B (18 " No. 2 11 012.5-4 rin'ji and ivackiiuM 01 " No. 3 0 4:52.10 62004 83 on shore . .>«.:••.'"«>■ ( '. Campbell "iliilS 1110 bbls No. 1 812. 81001.35 ^1)1^1 ;i wr.«.s 17 (labor) 57.23 • "iioiiH ^ ^^'•'^ ^^0. 2 8 20.22 81087 85 lilting .S:c. per ow»''^,^^^^^^^^^^^j ^ s.dlin^ ^^M>H •'•' '^'''« ^^*^- ^ ^^'^ ■*'^"'*'-^'^ g, saiun„, ^^™ j.^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^^ shoi^s'.V."...iioi« 4;', '^ No. 3 7.25 230.40 ^" OlM 20 " No. 4. 0. 82.30 81509 SO ,^,|^_ F. Temple , 12.00 ^^oov^'^ 5U«l)LsNo. 1 89.75 8-118.50 V o;,:(^ Oil " No. 2 8. 41.5.20 88:53 70 88.00 >oJ^''« ,, ., , ,, J^ S2-'''.'^B *-■ Campbell ud VaVious snppljM 112 mess 812 (labor) 81123.40 $800. a ye^ i;,S bbu No. 1 8. 109.50 ;iO " No. 2 0.50 137.07 81429 07 Veteran 222 bbls No. 1 88 250 " No. 2 G 5 " No. 3 5 |.$500.iufivey^^«^ ul Banks Georgfl $1332.90 1026.10 10 00 ii'. >*■ m lis ''^^«^. 82375 00 3110 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 1875 0. Campbell ;J5 mess 821 \ . ,^„ ^„ ... $078.95 108 scraped 17 \ '^^^°^ «» "«'' 1028.00 40 bbis No. 1 15 005.50 11 " No. 2 12 110.40 5 » No. 4 7 20.30 .v;i()(;i i.-, WiM. II. I'EKKINS GEOHGE PKKKINS r.y W. II. l». .Ir. IJy W. II. i>.,i,, GEOKGK II. TEKKINS Wm. II. TEUKINS. Ji; By W. II. r. Jr. No. 47. This is to ct'itily, Tliiit tlio untlersijjucd, (;oiiii)Osiiiff the Hiiii of Jolm Pew vS: Sou Iiave been tMi{,'ag('(l in tlic lishiii^j buaiaoss lor the i»a>t (1849-1S77) 28 yeais at Gloacester Mass and that since, the Wasliiii<;t(iii Treaty, so called, lias been in ellect, our vessels bavo been eiiiploycd us follows : No. of Vessels emiiloyed — au average of ]y No. of Trips made ,s;ii No. of Tiips (o I5ay St. Lawrence No of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Gdln I No. of Barrels of Mackerel caiigbt within 3 miles of shore, not iiiclml ing Magdalene Islands From general talk with our Skippers during the time, we have always! understood all caught were outside of 3 miles — We have no (Ictinitej knowledge that any were canght inside. Average value of Vessels each SJiiHJo j Average value of 'Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c •'j.JjdO J Average value of Insurance !*m\ Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per nio . . ..''.Sj.OOJ Average value of Commissions, &c J^i'd Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for caring and packiiij;,L including exi)enses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Valiiej of wharves, fish houses &c $75,000. Yearly expense acct. adding' torj partners time !*'MM Number of Vessels lost A''alue of Vessels lost, including outfits $10M Value of Fish lost )?1.20 Number of Lives lost 1^ Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, i^cc., pertwtj $1.2; Total value of Mnckerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting', &c.,m l)bl. •■: Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores — ^""*^™i. Total val ue of INIackerel do Xoii^ •^'■ years have sent ahujic iininber to the (lran value of Wharves, Fish-houses, »S:c., for curing and i»ucking, I iiidudiiig expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore $12,000, $5500=817,500 Nber of Vessels lost 1 [aliie of Vessels lost, including outfits . . .8000 Naeof Fish lost nothing pber of Lives lost 17 4 •M iipfckii it" AuW Brf5is..jj .t*'?"-.; m^'-U'-r 3112 AWARD OF THE FISUKKY COMMISSION. Total valno of Fish taken, before curing, s|>!ittiii;{, saltiii;;, vScc. per cwt .(.Kill Total value of Maciken'l taken, before enrin{», spljtfin'' saltiiii' S^i- )bl ;i|,)„ Total value of Fish taken within three miles of Jbitisli sliorcs ..(iiio Total value of Mackerel do Averaj,'e nuirket value of American Shore Mackerel No. 1. !i< !(;.()(» No. 'J .*<1L',0(», \„. :; .is.uo Averafje nmrket value of Bay Mackerel No. Is !>'.".is.js Average amount i)ai(l in IJritish ports for bait, ice, ami vmioiis sup |>lies liflOO.dO each \essell prr v.ar Amount paid to Ibitisii (ishermen for herring !!<17(H).(M) [wi yeiir fni i' vcais Anu)nnt paid to J»ritish lishernu'u as wages ' jkki Amount paid in IJritish ports for repairs !?lir).(K> per year \hv vessel Ijoeations fre(pieuted by Auu'riean vessels for Fisii (Jcorges to Grand Jhink, Labrador l>ay St L;i\vnine Location frequented by American vessels for Mackerel I'rom Cape May to Gd. INIenan ^S: Jlay St. bawrciMi. Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking inhi Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken (ino Facts as to changes in location and mode of comlucting Anierieaii tisli- eries The Gloucester vessels fishing on Georges most of them used to ;,'ive , up that branch of the business, conimcucing the last of May (rieaily all liaving given up by the last of June) and go to the IJay of St Lawniici' lor Mackerel but since the failure of the mackerel ilshing in the bay of I St Lawrence a larger number follow Georges fishing through the year,] and others remain ou this coafet to catch mackerel, using seines insteul of hook (& lino Larger vessels are now used than formerly and iituiej are engaged in the Grand Jiank fisheries, PETER D SMITH SMITH .K: OAKKS Sworn Jind subscribed to before nie, this eighth day of .fiuie 1S77 (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xotary Vublk No. 4J). This is to certify, that the undersigned, composing the tinii of Wale & Allen have been engaged in the (ishing business for the jtiist li'litj years, at Gloucester, JNIass and that since the Washington Treaty. s(]| called, has been in effect ouv vessels have been employed as fallows: !No. of Vessels employeay of St. Lawrence I'i\'1 No. of Barrels of ^Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Ten liuMtlrt.'(K\: I'nrt^ Two bbls. No. of Barrels of IMackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not incliuiin^ Magdalene Islands Two hundred ^: Fifty liMi Average value of Vessels each Six thousand dollai] Average value of outfits, Salt, Bait, &c One thousand dolhiJ Average value of Insurance Fifty-Two huiuhed dollai^ Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. Thirty dollaj Average value of Commissions, &c Three hundred & fitif AWAKD OK TIIK FISHKIIY COMMISSION. ail 3 WtTiijrt' vi'l"'^' "f Wharves, Fislilumsoa, &(!., f»)r ciirir,^ aiid pacUini;, iiiclmliiiK' •'>;i>»'"'<«'>< of Clerks, Proprietors and lah «r oti .sl.oro Twenty I'ive tlioi'.siiiid dollars yniiilter of Vessels lost I'i\ o Viliii' 1)1' Vessels lost, iiieliidinji oiitllts ICifjfliteeii tiioiisand dollars viiliif of Fish lost Niiiiilii'rol' Lives l(»st .* NoilO ^oi.il viiliu' of Fish taken, before eiirin;,', s[»liliinjr, s.iltin;;, ^i;. per (!\vt «)ne dolliir [otal value of .Alaekeiel taken, before curln]L,', splittin;-', saltin;;, »\;c. |n'r [ilil Fonr iinndred dollars (I yrs Avt'ra;'e uiarket value of Anieriean Shore >raekerel Fleven & |'„"„ per bid I ivcia).'!' uiarket valne of Jlay [Mackerel fjt.s iiverajje iverav't' eaniinKf^ t>t th(^ operative lisherinen per year f<'2Mi liviTatitMiuiount paid in British jiorts for bait, ice, and various supplies Twenty Five hundred dolls Aiiioinit paid to British flsheruien for herrinj; Twelve thousainl in 5 years lAnioiuit paid to British fishermen as wages iiiiMintimid in IJritish ports for repairs jkatious freiiuented by American vessels for Fish Grand, Western, & Georges Bank, Seal Island «S:c |loc.itiou8 frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Mostly Magdalene Islands jictiial value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing Iktiial value of Mackerel in the water, before taking " iFacts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries Most of our vessels are codfish ing on the Ocean Banks and some of jtaarooliour own shores mackerelling We send no vessels into the |Ek of St Lawrence this year. Our experience is that the Mackerel hy thoro is a failure. Last year wo sent one vessel loO Tons with llMt'ii and she brought liome as her seasons work 70 Bbls of mackerel. Ktliat fisluM'y has been the last 5 years to pursue it", would be ruinous. pVessi'ls enter British waters only for supplies tS: Bait for which we wv casli MICHAEL WALi:X ^'Torn ami subscribed to before me, this fourth day of June 1S71 (Seal.) No. 50. DAVID W. LOW yotari/ VnhJh' [liiis is to certify, that the undersigned, composing tiie firm of Pettin- liVCiinningliam have been engaged in the fishing business for the NFourUH'ii years, at Gloucester iAIass and that sin(!e tlici NVasIiington pty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as Pows : lof Vessels employed Six (•of Trips made from five to six each vessel yearly "•of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence Six in five years Uf Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 1200 Bbls (•of liarrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ k Magdalene Islands 300 Bbls r'*- w-^te ; M J.»*T't' •"■■-"Tl Ml u^^ ' \-^ ■•1* aii4 AWARD OK TirK I'lHirKUY rOMMIHHION. Avt'iii^o vnliK^ of VonmjiIh mvh Kvo Mioiisaml Dollars Av('ni;;c viiliio of Oulllts, Halt, Hnit, Xo. ' ' $1(MK) |)«r Hii.v Irip *;{0(>0 yc.iul.v <'acli vmcj Av«>rjiK«' viiiiio <)( liiNuniiuu^ '^MW per vfsir tacii vessel Av»>ruK«"i viiliir of dnptaiiiH' anil dnnvs' Mmr, vi/,., \vh<,m'.s ikt ino ...ji;;- Av(>ra^j<^ valtio of (JoiniiiisHioiis, iSic, fff'Jim ««ar|i vcnscI veaih- AvtM'ajfo vaino of Wharvrs, l"'islili(>n.srH, i'n'.,, forcMirint,' ;iml |»;iH;ii|.r iiicliiiliii); cxpciiMCH ofdnUH, I'loprirtoiH aixl labor on slioic.'jfii) m] NninlxT of Ni^ssi'ls lost ' "( in,. VaUu' of N't'sscls los(., iiH'.Indin;^ oulllls SfT.iKKi \'i\'. wi of I'MnIi lost .^i" -|||| Nnnibcr of l/iv<>H lost ..Klevrn Total valni^ of l"'isli taUcn, Ih'Ioit r,arin^, Nplittin;,', Hallin;,% ,Vc. per (•«!. )ifi,:)ii Total vahit^ of Alaiikorcl laiuMj, bolorc! ciirin};, splillin};, siiltin;,', \(',., per l>l>l AL'.riO Tolnl valnc oC I'NhIi taken within lliiro miles of Uritisli sIidits iium T«)lal valne of IMackiMol niaike' valne «>r AnuMican tSlioio Mackerel '^ ' '^['^ '^'^ Averaj-e market, value of Hay JNIaekerel ^'!.' ^'.' - •'^'?' Averajje <>arnin^s of (lie operaliv«» l)slierm<'n per .year !i,;ii() Ayera^e amount paid in Itrilish portH lor bail, i<'e and various sii]i|)li(i noOeaeli vessel or !i<.!0(l(» \(.iniy Amount paitl to llrilisli llsliermen lor Iierrinj^ i?IO(> jcarlyj Amounti paiorts for supplies «!vc The iiia''k('rq lishery in the Itay of Ht Lawrence falling (dl' so much in <|iiaiitit,vand (luality as to nuike it impossible lor American Vessels willi their ('o|[ and equipment to pay their expenses. ciiAiiLKS 1) im:ttin(;i:i.i., Sworn ;ind subscribed to belore nu\ this lll'th day olMiine 1S77 (Seal.) DAVIJ) W. LOW yotary rtihUc\ No. r»i. This is to certily, That (he undersi}4;ued, composinji the linn ol' !'>. Mi^ docks «!s: Vo have been enjiaf^ed in (he (ishinfjf business lorllie pa>t years, at (.lloucester Mass aiul that since tlie ^Vashin{;t()n TreaU, I called, has been in ell'ect, our vessels have been employed as tollows:| No. of Vessels employed I'il'tiHMi >V.. of Trips nnule Three liundred & Sixty four (ii No. of Trips to Jlay St. Lawreuce Twenty oiio ( AWAUI) OF THK KIHIIKUY (JOMMtHHION. :nij So of HiirK'nof Mju'-kon'l from liny ^l- I>iv\vroii('«< Koil.v Nix iiiiiiilKMl (U'M)) ^'^ „f lliirrrlHor Mackon'l c.iiiij^lit witJiiii •( iiiilt^s nl' nIioit, not iiir,lii(>, for oacli \('.s.s( I |»r y^sir Avi' vidnti of ( 'oninii.s.sions, iVc. r;ij,T Viiliif of WliarvcH, h'isli llons(^^, iVc, lor (tin in;; and piicUiu;,', iiiiiif; expenses of (MciUh, I'ropriehnH anil iaitor on .slioie Sixteen tliiaiNand (.iefoi(< enria^X) split tin;;, salt in;;, vVc. per <'.wt, llolal viiliie ol Mae.kend taken, liel'oro cnrin;;, spliltin;;, saltin;;, iVe,., per hl)l. linf no llsli and very (ew niaeket(dl lloliil vi'iiic of fisli lak<>n wit.liin ihnw miles of Kritisli shores Impossilde to mak*/ corretrt estiniato t( llotal viiliie, of Mackerel do livmuiMiiarkot viiliie of Annirican Whore Mai'.kend lOle.veii dollars pr I'arnd livcniije market, value of I'.ay Mackerel l')i{;ht, ,'„;, dollars pr Harnd ^Wii|;c(!arinn;;s of the ojierativc lishermeu per year Two hnndred & seventy five dollars |lvt'r;i;;i> anion nt |>aid in llrilish ports for bait, i<;e, and various siip|dies ^riireo TiKMi.sand dollars pr. Year iaioiiiil paid to Mritisli (Islutrmen for herring Two llionsand dollars ]n\ ^'ear imoiint paid to Hritish fisli(>rmen as wa;;es Two thousand dollars |n;;lt»ii Ti''!'^)' ^yodasiollotts'J Viftoenif Isi^ Sixty four (ij .Twenty one ( piiiit paid in liritish ports for repairs: ..Twenty six hnndred dollars wtioiis IVeipKMited by American vessels for Kish Mrt.'t's,,Sabl(^ Island, and (irand Manks, iV ay Si. Lawrence wtiims rr('(|iienteAVlb W. LOW Xotary Public ;:iti' V: 'yms I '4. .f1^ -i' ;i .i St ■1^^ 311G AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION No. 52. This is to certify, That the mulersigned, conposinj,' the firm of (;^,,, Deunis & Co have been eiif^ayed in tlie fisliing business lor tlupiust tin years, at Gloucester and that since the Washinfjton Treaty, so (y, \\^,,\ lias been in etfect, our vessels have been employed as follows: No. of Vessels employed vj,,],. No. of Trips ." 4 trips yearly Kiioli ^ vr^,! No. of Trips to Bav St. Lawrence , 'lS72— 1 trip 1S73— 1 trip 1874—2 tiip.s l,S7.j_i tij,, No. of Barrels of Mackerel from IJav St. L;i\vren(!e 1)3 Bis - 94.} _ :,(i.-,. soiiisl No. of Barrels of I\[ackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not 'uu:hii\. ing Magdalene Islands Xnnol Average value of Vessels each kkki Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c (iOO each tripj Average value of Insurance 200 9 per cts on Vessell & Outtittsl Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. forty Dollars! Average value of Commissions, &:c Three hundred DollarsJ Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing,] including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ° | fifteen Tliousaiid P„ Number of Vessels lost >'oii9 Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fsh taken, before curing, splitting, salting, t&c, per cwtj (50) fifty ceiiti Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., pen bbl Three DoliaiJ Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores 'Smi Total value of Mackerel do '• Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Ten Dollan $1(J_SIL>-$I Average market value of Bay Mackerel .Seven Dollaij Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Two hmuircd Dollad Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various siipiilia Each year Eight hundred Di»lla^ Amount paid to British (ishermen for herring " Five " " Amount paid to British tishermen as wages 8 men forty Dollars per iikhiI Amount paid in British ports for repairs.. Twenty one hundred IhM Locations frequented by Aiiierii'an vessels for Fish I Western liank. (iraiuli!aii| Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Gulf of St Lawrence to cape ill Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking. notliil Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Aineric n li^ eries Lines & Trawls & Hand lines are used for taking fish AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3117 Our vessells are mostly confined to Ocean Banks for Fish, we tlo not take any tisli iu British waters, the Bay St. Lawrence fisheries have proved a falier in onr experiance. Vessells sent their for the past five years liavo not paiil their expenses and to continue the Business in tliat Direction would prove Ruinous. GEO DENNIS GEORGE TUCKER Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 3l3t day of May 1877 (Seal.) • DAVID W. LOW ^^otary Public 2^0. 53. This is to certify, that the uiulersigned, Joseph O. Procter has been fngajjcd in the fishing business for the past Thirty years, at Gloucester, , Jllss^and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in ef- fect, my vessels have been employed as follows : k of Vessels employed Thirteen \'o, of Trips made Six yearly to each vessel — 78 18'7L> 73 74 75 76 I >'o, of Trips to Bay of St. Lawrence 5 13 11 5 1 Ixo, of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrenco 7.480 Bbls in 5 years or 211 Bbls per trip on the average. |yo, of Bariols of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiicliuling )Iiigtlaleiic Islaiuls 750 I Averatte value of Vessels each 5.000 ivcrajjio value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c . .$3,500.00 yearly to each vessel iverase value of Insurance .*300.00 yearly to each vessel liverage value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $35. pr month |ivera?;o value of Commissions, &t; $200.00 pr Vessel per year [iviTage value of AVharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and i)acking, iiidiuliiigexpeusesof Clerks, Proprietors and laboron shore. $30,000,00 lyQinber of' vessels lost Three IValiiL' of Vessels lost, including outfits Fifteen thousand dollars Falne of Fish lost Four thousaml dollars lyiiuibcr of Lives lost Fifteen |l«tal value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt. from 50 to $1.00. |kil value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &e., per Two dollars Potal value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores ... None pjtal value of Mackerel do $6,850, delivered at Gloucester plage market value of American Shore Mackerel No. 1, $16. No. 2=$ 12. No. 3— $8.00 [Ivt'iage market value of Bay Mackerel No. 1— $12. Xo. 2^8. No. 3— $0.— jlurage earnings of the operative fishermen per year Three hundred dollars pmge amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, aud various supplies $1,800.— yearly \m\]t paid to British fishermen for herring $900 each Season iiount paid to British fishermen as wages fnftiiiit paid iu British ports for repairs Nothing Jcatioiis frequented by American vessels for Fish Georges, Grand, Querau, St Peters aud other Banks olf Shore ^,f 1 ' '.' " ''•<^W tis*^^ :■"': 'W^'fcjriL. .il*«- 3118 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Locations freciuentcd by American vessels for ]Mackerel From Cape ITenry to Cape Xortho. Capo urotoii Actual viiliie oC Fish in the water, be- ) xt i ,, fore taking i, >" :''^^"'^' ,^<'^f^ "" tliovj Actual vahieof Mackerel in the water, f ,,'"'"" /" ^"^\''''' '^'"1 P'qmro before take.. ] '''«'" *"'' '"•^''^•'f- Facts ns to changes in location and mode of conductiii;,' Aincricaul tislieries Since the year 1870 the number of v.essels using the IJay of JSt i,;uv. rence for jNIackerel catching has been gradually reduced from about .iiiOl to less than (iO vessels from the United States; the ^lackerd l)ciii;,n)(ioi; Jind in small (juantity; while on our Shores Mack'l have hceirinore plenty, of better qnality, and a large fleet engaged from April L'.lthto Nov. loth. All the Vessels on our Shore now nse the Seine, and mnel the hook and line as formerly. Seining has not been succissCuih' carl ried on in the Bay of St Lawrence, the shoalness of the water and tha unevenncss of the bottom, where the few Mack'l there tend ; has mad^ every voyage unsuccessful, and caused an abandonment of the biisinesa There will probably be less Vessels in the Bay this Season than aiij season during the last Forty. Our Cod iisheries are deep *S'ea tislieriesi and outside of all local jurisdiction. JOSEPH (). rUOCTEK. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this fifth day of June 1877 (Seal.) DAVID VV. LOW Xotarn IWk No. 54. I This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the linn of Samii^ Haskell have been engaged in the fishing business for the pastfiftce years, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, i called, has been in elTect, our vessels have been employed as follows: No. of Vessels employed Sij No. of Trips made. .Seven & 8 trips yearly to each Vessel, total oyrs .3 1872 1873 1874 1875 1870 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence.. 4 2 3 0 0 total] No. Barrels of Mackerel Irom Bay St. Lawrence 1872 1873 1874 1100 bis 420 bis 383 bis total 3 yrs 1!)] No. of Barrels of JMackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiRliidiij Magdalene Islands 12J Average value of Vessels each ftve thousand Dolliil Average value of Outtits, Salt, Bait, iS:c $2700 to each vessel yeai Average value of Insurance S20() each vessel yea^ Average value of Cai)tains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per luo. Captain $70 Crews !i'3(i ea Average value of Commission, &c ^-Ot* each ^t^^^^j .ei, Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and l''"''^''^Bfj,,.p''"j including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ^■onf p"^ Number of Vessels lost !^Bver,Sf ,' Value of Vessels lost, including outtits '^''^Breraffn ^'" Value of fish lost ^■rerllf! ^'* Number of lives lost ,^Brera*e ^ ^ Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. I'^'^^Breriffo V^ One Do^W o^ ^'•i AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3119 lotal value of Mackerel faken, before curing, splitting, salting, &.c,, per bbl 8-,o0 cts Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores None Total value of Mackerel do §1100 delivered at 'Honcester \vera"o market value of Aniericun Shore Mackerel ' " No 1. 810 Xo L'. .•J12, Xo ;} 88 Wewe market value of JJay Mackerel ■ " No. 1812 No 2, 88 No 3, 80 I sold for 810,85 Arcrago earnings of the oj)erative iishernien per year. . .8270 at my place Wtnifje amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $200 each vessel yearly, total 81200 yearly Anionnt paid to British fishermen for herring 8000 each year Aiuoiuit paid to British fishermen as wages None Aiiiouut paid in British ports for repairs None Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand, Western, La, have, Georges Banks Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Cape May to Eastport vK.' Bay St Lawrence I Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- 1 tries : Hive sent no vessels into the Bay of St Lawrence the last two Ivms, the Bay Ashing does not pay the expenses. Th« last years I had vessels there in 73 & 74 they did not pay for their outfits The Mack- lerel are poor worth ^d less than shore mackerel it is a bad place to use jiseine a long time is required for a trip and to pursue the Bay fishery, Iffidtliat alone, would fail anj'^ firm in Gloucester. It is entirely & prac- Itically useless to us as a fishery. The Halibut and cod fishery are en- lorelvBank fisheries owing no allegienco to any Government SAML HASKELL :,im*^': ■ •¥f?l»»i*.. .>. ^ Sfforn and subscribed to before me, this thirty first day of May 1877 (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xotary Fuhlic. No. 55. This is to certify. That the undersigned, composing the firm of Joseph [Frieml have been engaged in the fishing business for the past 40 years, iGloucester Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, fisbeeii iu etVect, our vessels have been employed as follows : . of Vessels employed 8 12 men each vessell fo. of Trips made 0 to each Vessell 1872 h of trips to Bay St. Lawrence 4 1872 fioflJarrels of Mackerel from Bay of St. Uawrence 1500 1200 220 0 0 lof Barrels of Mackerel caught withiu 3 miles of shore, not including I Magilolenc Islands about one-tenth page value of Vessels each 0000, each f frage value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 2000, do yearly rerage value of Insurance 9 & on vessels & outfitts page value of Captains' and crew^s' time, viz., wages per mo . .35 each page value of Commissions, &c 200 each vessell 1873 1874 1875 1870 3 1 0 0 1873 1874 1875 1870 tl^-i $ :•■ :>-rHM f ^*i';:: 3120 AWAKD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Average value of Wbarves, Fish-houses, &c., for curiiif; and puckinr' including expenses of clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. . .$"oo(M) Number of vessels lost one in IJay. St. Lawroiu-o Value of vessels lost, including outfits -„„(j Value of Fish lost • . .Hone Number of Lives lost j,, Total value of Fish taiien, beforecuring, splitting, salting, i\:c., jicr cwV. ..".o Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, saltiii" ivC per bbl "', 1 •;,•) I Total value of Fish taken witiiin three miles of British shores nonej Total value of Mackerel do , on,, Nos 1 J ;j' Average market value of American Shore Mackerel ](i, ij s j ^'oH 1 L' :j' Average market value of Bay Mackerel 1 1. 7. -, | Average earnings of the oi)erative fishermen per year $:'L'.).l Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sniJ plies !> .90(1.00 A ?i!onut paid to Britisli lishermen for herring 700().(l(» yt-arlvl \ lount paid to British fishermen as wages L'Od.oi) do ' ..'Mit i)aid in British ports for repairs > ' . ^.ns frequented by American vessels for Fisli Grand Banks iS; Ciour^'e^ Locations frequ<*nted by American vessels for nuickerei from Cape I\Iay to Gulf of Ht. Liij Ai:i ■ ;d v.i,i -.c of Fish in the water, betbre taking notliins Actual valiio of ..iJickerel in the w.ater, before taken do Facts as to clmnges in location and mode of conducting Auiericau lish cries Years ago we sent meny, vessels to the Bay, of, St Lawrence I'o JMackerel but for, the last five years the business has i)rovcd so uiiprolij able we cannot pursue it my, vessels are now confined to tlic Umu banks and our own shores intirely our shore Mackerel boiii},' imicj superior in quality and being taken with Seins realize a larger pio^ then anj', other Mackerel fishery my, vessels enter British waters oiil' for. Bait suplies and llerring for, which I, pay, cash to the InliMbitiiiil JOSEPH riilENDJ Sworn and subscribed to before me, this first dav of June 1S77 (Seal.) • DAVID W. LOW NoU.ry VuMic\ No. 50. This is to certify. That the undersigned, composing the tirm of S,il uel Lane & Bro have been engaged in the fishing business for tbopj thirteen years, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Washington TreuJ so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follofl No. of Vessels employed No. of Trips made No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught witliin 3 miles of sliore, not imlj including Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c Average value of Insurance aiitl piickiu;;, .ore...$'iO(H)l» St. Lawrence 7000 UOIIl' VJ CClH'VCWt. .."'Oj ;, HiiUiii;,', vS:*'. 1,50 1 liores .... none [ (;00,j >^os \ '1 3 .... l»i, 12, S,| .... U. T. :.{ 8'^'^'>.j nd various f\\\)-\ 'JOO.OO V. 7000.01) yearly] 'JUO.IH) do .'I , , 0 Gulf of bt. In nothing '.■■ do iiii; Anioriciui lis St Lawrence fd )rove«l so uni 'uod to the Ocea lUorel beins ^m \i/.o a larjior pioll iritisU waters oull [to the 1"^>-J^';^i*,i ^f June IS' ' you.ni I'vm 1 2 tlietirmof M lisiuessfortbopi tVas\iiuSton/}y') If shore, not uum AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3121 Averajjp value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per nio $45 Averaj,'e value of Commissions, &c #175 Average value of Wharves, Fish houses, »S:c., for curing; and i)ackin{;, iiielu(lin;j expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. $-7000 .Viimber of Vessels lost . 1 Value of Vessels lost, including outfits |8700 Value of Fi?«t none. ymiiber of Lives lost 12 lotal valoe of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &.c. per c w t - - . . - ... 1 2 Iota! value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per bbl $3 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores none Total value of Mackerel do ^.'iOO Average market value of American Shore Mackerel $12 Average market value of Baj' Mackerel $7 per Bbl. Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year $400 per man. Average ainouut paid iu British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies $050 per Trip. Amount paid to British fishermen for herring $4300 I Amount paid to British lishermeii as wages $8750 for mackl. caugh Bay St. Lwrence. I Amount paid in British ports for repairs $2500 [Locations frequented by American vessels for fish none in Bay of St. Lawrence. [Locatious freciueuted by American vessels for Mackerel P. E. Island— Magdalene Is— C. B. Is. [Actual value of Fish iu the water, before taking no value. Actual value of Mackerel iu the water, before taken no value. |Fact« as to changes iu locatiou and mode of conducting American fish- eries Before the year 1871 the Bay of St. Lawrence was some benefit to Ifiloiicester Mackerel Fishermen, but since then the mackl have been liiore plenty ou the American Coast, therefore the Glou mackerel ves- litlshave beeu growing less in no every year that formerly engaged in lifBayof St. Lawrence mackerel fishing and have tended the Amer- litin coast with seines for mackerel. We consider Fishing in the Bay of |t Littreuce of no value. SA-ML LANE » SAML LANE & BRO GEO. E. LANE f Sworn and subscribed to before me, this first day of June 1S77 iJeal) DAVID W. LOW Notary Public No. 57. ' [Tills is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of George pie have been engaged in the fishing business for the past 25 years, GUecster Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has «i in etlt'Ct, our vessels have been employed as follows: I of Vessels employed average nine i(jf Triits made 350 in G year 'Of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 19 " " <' of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence about 5000 ► ot Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- I'l? JIagdalene Islai'ds . • none 190 F 1 «*'1?.'%'st** \mM0 ^V 3122 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I ! Average value of Vessels each agjiki Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c . ..S0(». ciiclithi) I Average value of Insurauce 0% ou value vessel tSi omtit Average value of Captaiu»' aud Crews' time, viz., wages per mo... Am, Average value of Commissions, &c 8350. each ves*) j Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &o., for curing and piukin.', including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. >ijsiiiiii' Number of Vessels lost 5| Value of Vessels lost, including outfits about >}['m\ Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost iJ Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, suiting, \c, iietj cwt .10 cents! Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, siditting, salting, ^c.\ per bbl .ilnd Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores.. iiutli Total value of Mackerel do Average market value of American Shore Mackerel 810 >il2 il Average market value of Bay Mackerel 811. i"!!. ji Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year s-^i Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and variciissnp plies $200. per ve.ssel yeiirli Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages .... $50. per ve.ssel yearlj Amount paid in British parts for repairs. $7.50. per year for past C ve4 Locations frecpieuted by American vessels for Fish Georges, Browns, Le Have & Grand li;ii Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel from Cape May to Gulf Sr. Lawirnd Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking notliini Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken iiothin Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Aniericau tisj eries Hand lining has about given way to Trawls and Seines. TlieBavj St. Lawrence fishing for Mackerel has not proved profitable: it been gradually falling ott" for several years and vessels there do not i pay expenses. One vessel there last year for 3 mos with Ki uienoii| packed out 09 Barrels. Our vessels pursue the deep water li.'ili the Banks bordering the Gulf Stream and outside the juri.silictiouj any nation. GEOEGE STEELE^ Sworn and subscribed to before me, this seciond dav of Juno 18" (Seal.) JJAVil) W. LOW Xotayij rMi\ No. 58. This is to certify'. That the undersigned, composing the tirni of Cl ningham «& Thompson have been engaged in the fishing busine.sstoif past six years at Gloucester Mass and that since tbe Wasbiii?| Treaty, so called, has been iu ettect, our vessels have been employed follows : No. of Vessels employed T^"; No. of Trips made Seven yearly to each VeJ No. of Trii)8 to Bay St. Lawrence Ten from ISTO to II AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3125 lig tlie tinn ot tj iug business tori the WasbuisiJ been employw arly to ej .Ten. I !iel» Vel ki fioui ISTO to 11 >"o of Banols of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Three thousand, -fS.OOO >'o. of Barrels of Mackerel canght within 3 miles of shore, not incltulinf; MiigdalfK' Islands 200 Bbls Average value of Vessels each $0,500 Wage value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c. $1,000 for Bay trip. Average, $3,000 yearly i Average value of Insurance 9 per ct on Vessel tS: OutHta 1 Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $-iO Average value of Commissions, &c. 4 pr ct on gross stock about $200 each vessel. [Average v.alue of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing anf^:?v^.r;ii***.. ,»■■■ •'f"f!'*.»'W >nh- m 1 r -. ~f . !i r •-^.i**-;/^5*./ ! ifj '1 --'W ^ ii''|f 3124 AWARD OP THE FI8IIEKY COMMISSION. No. 59. This is to certify, T liiit the nndersigued, composing tlie tinn ni' Dennis & Ayer have been engaged in the (isliing bnsines.s for tlic past twelve years, at Gloucester Mass and that since tlie Washington Tn-iity ho called, has been in eft'ect, our vessels have been eni[)!oyetl as follows ; Ko. of Vessels employed Fituitocn No. of Trips made l^ighty per year for all ol tlio Vesseli No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence Six since 1871 No. of Barrels of Maclierel from Bay St. Lawrence Eighteen hundred Hbls No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not incliiding Magdalene Islands Xoiie Average value of Vessels each Six thousand dollars Average value of Outflts, Salt, Bait, &c One thousand dollars Average value of Insurance Five thousand dollars Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. Thirty dollars Average value of Commissions, &c four per cent, to Capt. of Vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &«., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Forty thousand dollars Number of Vessels lost . One Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Eight thousand dollars Value of Fish lost one thousand do Number of Lives lost Twelve Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ike, per cwt One dollarsi Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &t per bbl Two dollan Total value of Fish takeu within three miles of British shores Nom Total value of Mackerel do Noni Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Ten dollai Average market value of Bay Mackerel Eight dollars per Bbl Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Two hundred & Seventy tivedolla Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup plies Two hundred dollars per year for each vessi" Amount paid to British fishermen for herring One thousand dollars per Year NewfouudI Amount paid to British fishermen as wages >oi Amount paid in British ports for repairs. . . .one thousand dollars 18' Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Georges La Haven Western & Graud Baukj Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Coast of the United States & Gulf St. Lawieoi Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Notiiii Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken >'otliii Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Ameritau lii eries Within last three years we have not had any Vessels engngeil Fishing in British Waters either for Cod or Mackeral. The Mackl fishing being done on the Coast of the United States ti New Jersey to and along the Eastern Coast of Maine and those euga; in Cod Fishing on Georgies Western Le Have «& Grand Banks not re) ing to British Waters except to purchase Bait and occasionally lor Wati 1011 Aetnal Actual AWARD. OF THE F18HERY COMMISSION. 3125 XhoOnlfof St Lawrence Fishery is so improftuble that we coiisitler itaiii'iitiri' failiiio. JAMES S AYKR. DENNIS ."s: AVER JOHN V, DENNIS 8ff()rn and subscribed to before me, tljis Jlst day of May 1S77 (Seal.) DAVID \V: LOW yotary Public No. 'o. of Vessels employed Seven >'o. of Trips made Thirty five Yearly >'o. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence Two in 1873 none since yo. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 400 No, of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands None Average value of Vessels each $5800, Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $800, Average value of Insurance $4400, or about 9 per cent Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $35, $200.00 each vessel Average value of Commissions, «&c. . 4 per cent on Gross Stock to Skipper Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ..$ 18000. Nnmber of Vessels lost One Value of Vessels lost, including outfits $6400 Value of Pish lost None Number of Lives lost Twelve Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c , per cwt 75 cts Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl $ I.OO I Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores . . . .Xone [ Total value of Mackerel do None Average market value of American Shore IVIackerel $14. for ones $12, for twos §8, for threes Average market value of Bay Mackerel $11, for ones $8, for twos $0, for threes Average earnings of the operative fishermen i)er year $250, [Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup. plies $400, Yearly i Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $220, Yearly Araonnt paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Gr. Bank La Have Banks Iweations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Bay St Lawrence I Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing jActual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing 1^ r^ • ■ Ua.,''- • ? .'■' I 1 -T'J .-....'HiMiMilkM. 'jar*? >-":fi •■.w^W-^^i. -v-.!! bfej '■■■"Tn l?Jii::*lt-'- 1 t 1 3126 AWAliU OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Facts as tu cimnges iu location and uiouu of coiulucting Aiiicrican iliii. t'lies The Bay of St Lawrence fishery has proved a failure in my t'x\n't\- ence my vohhcIs not having paid their bills or exix'uses ii.siM|iifiitl\ [ now confine my vessels to our own Shores for Maekerel uiul tliH ()(;»i,iii Banks for lish My vessels do not enter British Waters exccpi Ibi ii.ijt or supplies WM. C. WONSON Sworn and subscribed to before me, this thirtv first t< hiic No. 01. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the liiiu of have been engaged in the fishing business for the p.ist .NcarH, at and that since the Washington Treaty, so culled, iia.s bet'ii in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed (5) Five No. of Trips made 231 Codfish trips. 17 mackerel Trips No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence. (U) p:iev('ii No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence l'.'ji;! No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiicliidini^' Magdalene Islands jNlost caught oti* Maydaletif s. Average value of Vessels each >fV),m\ Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 8-.U()(i Average value of Insurance 9",^ on Vessel & Outlit'i. Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages i •• mo.fw Average value of Cora missions, &c 82' lii ScliV. Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing lekiiig, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on sho.c.'i'lS.OOU Number of Vessels lost (I ) one Value of Vessels lost, including outfits , ijT.IKXi , Value of Fish lost Ajiw Number of Lives lost none I Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &e percwt.j 75 c Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., peri bbl 82.00 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores no lisbf Total value of Mackerel do ■j'JOO.I Average market value of American Shore Mackerel $lGNol's $12no2's 88iio3j Average market value of Bay Mackerel $11 75 no 1 $7.50 no 2 $5.50 no 3^ Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 8i.'U0— j Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various siipplie«p §100— vearlj Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid iu British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Bank— G eorges Bank- Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May & Gulf St Lawreuo Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking .' uotbiuj AWARD OF THE FI8I1KKY COMMISSION. 3127 Actual viiliH' of Mnckon-l in tlu' wntcr, lu'foro takoii notliirig FartHAs to cliaiigcs in lucatioii iiiul luude ot (■(tiuliu-tiiig Aiiu'iioaii tiMli- cries Have witlidrawM vessols IVoin Day on ace of btiii;; uiii>rolitable — l)ii»iiioss to |)ni\snu. Our ('(xltlsliiug is pursued on Ocean Hanks \vitliin no national Juris- diction Our vi'ssi'ls do not no in IJritisli water oxceitt to iimt-hase Ilait »Sc siipjilies EPKS SAYWAL'I) Jr. GEO SAYWAliU Snnrii iind subscribed to before me, this tliirtv first day of May 1877 (Seal.) DAVIJ) W. LOW' yotaty Puhlic No. 02. This is to certify, Tliat the undersigned, composing the firm of ])aniel Siiwvanl liave been enurchase of b-.iit and supplies. DANIEL SAVWAUIJ Sworn and subs W. Low yolurtj ruhlic .No. (5.J. This is to certify, That the undersigned, cotnposing the firm of William Parsons lid «Ss Co have been engaged in thelishing business tor tlu; past Thirty years, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Washington Tivaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as followi; No. of Vessels employed lM)iirteca j No. of Trips made . . Five trips yearly esMih vessel, T»)tal, !)0 trips per year Vl871 J872 l.S7;5 1S74 187.". 187G1 No. of Trips to Bay St. liiiwrence.. 3 3 1 li 0 o Total G. years 13 j No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Two tliousaiijj No. of Barrels of ALiekerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiiclml-l ing Magdalene Islands l'.'»() BIiIsJ Average value of vessels each Five thoiisaml Dollarsj Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $2800 yearly toeadli vessell Average value of Insurance $300 yearly to each vessey Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages \nn- mo.... $3; Average value of Commissions, &c ."j'JOd t'acli ve.ssel Average vsilne of Wharves, Fish-houses, ike, for curing and packingj iucludi.ig expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on slioic, Twenty thousand Dollars, ycarU Number of vessels lost OiiiJ Value of vessels lost, including outfits Seven thousand Dollan Value of Fish lost Two thousaml Number of Lives lost I'oiuteel Total value of Fish taken, before curiifg, splitting, salting, ikv. percwt , 10 ( Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting. &c., per bbl ?i',( Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores .... Nofl Total value of 3Iackerel do lioOO in Clloucester Markj Average market value of American Shore Mackerel We sold for !i«i:. 8101 Average market value of Bay Mackerel We sold for No 1 $10 No :.' j^S Xo3( Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year $L'Ofl at one nil AWARD OF THE FISHKRY COMMISSION. 3129 . A im'rican iymgd niiionnt paid in RritiHh ports for bait, ico, and variouH Hiipplios •>W) eacli \ t'HM«l illiKiM) yearly imoiint |)i»i»>1 .". . . i\] o„ Total value of Fish taken witliin three miles of liritisli slion's. Nour Total value of Mackerel «lo >^,j„j. Average market value of Aimirican Shore Mackerel it; lo ,< Average market value of Bay Mackerel 1 1 ^ (j Average earnings of the operative tishermen |»er year ,«^250 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies 'JOO each vessel vearly Amount paid to British fishermen for herring $()00 to $.S(IO for i vessels eaeh yearly Amoutit paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for rei)airs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish (irand Bank «.\: (leorges Locations frequented by American vessels Cape May to BaySt Lawrence Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Notliiii),' Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Auiericaii lifili eries Our vessels have been (3od fishing on the Banks vS: Mackerelji).; mostly i oflf our own shores. The Bay of 8t Lawrence fishery has constantly ^Mowii poorer Our vessels did not pay their expenses shall send no vessels there this year Our own Shore Mackerel are worth a third moretlmu Bay Mackerel, We are using Seines where we formerly used Hooks id lines, The Cod fishery is pursued on the Banks bordering on the Gulf) Stream many mdes from any shores and within no National iiuisdictioiif WONSON BUOTliEKS Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 31st dav of Mav 1S77. W. S. WONSON (Seal.) S G WONSON Jr DAVID W. LOW Xotary Public No. G5. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Ged Norwood & Son have been engaged in the fishing business for the pasi Fifteen years, at Gloucester ]\Iass. and that since the Washington TreatyJ 80 called, has been in etfect,_our vessels have been enqdoyed as lo| lows: No. of Vesvsels employed ... Seva No. of Trips made I't^rfl No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence Sixteen since 18^ No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Thirty-Six Humlred Barrel No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iucliulij Magdalen Islands -^"i Average value of Vessels each Six Thousand do a Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c One Thousand dola Average value of Insurance Five Thousand dol " ;\nk vS:('ioorges AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 313 J Average value of Ci4>tains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo Thirty (lollais Average value of Commissions, Sec . . four per oent. to Captain of Vessel Averiigo value of VViiarvos, l''isli-l»onst's, i\:e., for curing anrietors, and labor on shore Twenty thousand dollars >'iiiiilior of Vessels lost None inliie of Vessels lost, ineluding outllts. Value of l''ish lost. >'iiiiiber of lives lost Four lotiil value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, «!v:c., per nvt One dollar Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &(!., per bill Two Barrels lof Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including |Mg(laleiie Islands None ftrage value of Vessels each $7,500 prane value of OutHts, Salt, Bait, &c $JH)U for Bay trip. ($3000 each vessel ye m m III '■■;1?'« 'lit \tu^-^ 'i-[s;v' ■I 3132 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION, Average value of Insurance — . 300 eacli vpssd yearly Averege value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo . ..A,}:) Average value of Commissions, &c 200 each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish houses, &c., for curing ami paekin<' including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on slioro.sii.ooij Number of vessels lost Xbree Value of Vessels lost, including outfits !ii>i^ (Km Value of Fish lost ki\ oim Number of Lives lost Twenty six Total value cf fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, tjsic per cwt •••1,(10 i Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splittinj;, salting. &c., per bbl . . A^^iii) Total value of Fish taken witbiu three miles of Britisjh shores Nonei Total value of Mackerel do Xoue j Average market value of American shore mackerel No 1 $10 >?o 2, 812, No. 3, fts] Average market value Bay Mackerel 1 sold for No 1 $12, No 2, $8 Xo 3 Hi Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year . . •'jsJOO per year! Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various suppliejj 82,3; 0 Yearly Amount paid to British fishermen for herring y^i Amount paid to British fishermen as wages >'on3 Amount paid in British ports for repairs ^'j^ Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks, Western, Georges, La Ilav^j Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Long Island Sound to Bay St Lawrence along sbon Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Xothinj Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken XotbinJ Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American ti*!^ eries The Fisheries and the mode of taking has changed much in tenyeard formerly the shore fisheries were used when hand lines and books m used now fish are taken on the Banks with trawls and Mackerel will seines, Our vessels are the best that can be built and go everywlien on the Ocean Banks for fish the fish are met and taken on the Banlj nearest the Gulfstream as they come on the Banks to spawn, the Bi of St Lawrence is entirely unprofitable to American tishermeu owia to the great expense of running the vessels and the poor quality aij quantity of fish «^ Mackerel there. LEONAKD WALE>I 3worn and subscribed to before me, this thirty first day of MaylSl (Seal.) DAVID W LOW Xofanj /'wWilitting, salting, &c., per cwt. aOc 7800000 lbs $39,000 Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, t&c, per bbl. 81^" 21000 bbls $31,500 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . . none Total value of Mackerel do none Average market value of American Shore Mackerel . . . thirteen dollars Average market value of Bay Mackerel . . . ^ ten dollars j Average earnings of the operative flshermeii per year $275 I Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $500 a year for each vessel I Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amoiint paid in British ports for repairs $1500 I Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Georges Western & Lahave Banks [Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel (Joast of Maine & Mass Long Island & Bay St Lawrence I Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing lictual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken •' [Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Amer- ican tisUeries During the last four years the facilities for catching mackerl have in- |eteased so that it does not pay to go for them from our own shores as ley can be taken in great abundance here & beside the chances of Ifftting tbem in Bay of St Lawrence & adjacent waters seem to grow less,or at all events the chances for getting either Mackerel or Cod Fish l«sovery uncertain that it is abandoned almost altogether, the vessels [liat pursued it did so at a heavy pecuniary loss last year & the year lefoie— JOSEPH ROWE. WILLIAM H. JORDAN. Swnrn and subscribed to before me, this 31st day of May 1877 !?eal,) DAVID W. L'JW Notary Public No. C8. lis is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Harvey Nvlton .Ir have been engaged in the fishing business for the past five !#♦**■ *?.#-^. , } •'■•I»**l: '^\, 3134 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. years, at Gloucestor Mass and that since the Washington Treaty so called, has been iu effect, our vessels have been employed as follon's' No. of Vessels employed ^^^^ No. of Trips made six each vessel vearlv No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence tive iu flve\ears No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 7-5 liWs No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdelene Islands ^one Average value of Vessels each sj do^ Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $3,000 each vessel jearlv Average value of Insurance $300 *' " u ' Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $40 Average value of Commissions, &c 250 each vessel yearly Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &(j., for curing and packing including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore . . .8lL'0i)d Number of Vessels lost , (jue Value of Vessels lost, including outfits ><."»,5(h> Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost. Eleyen Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ^:c. per cwt - si,0()i Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl .^2.00| Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores nnn Total value of Mackerel do uon Average market value of American Shore Mackerel $10 iHJ ji 1 2 No 1 NoL' No3| Average market value of Bay Mackerel $12 i?S Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sii] plies. $250 each vessel yearl, Amount paid to British fishermen for herring ^\M Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $l,()0() yearl Amount paid iu British ports for repairs nou Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Western Banks Grand Georges St Peten Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel American Shore Bay St Lawreiia Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking iiotliiiij Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken iiutliiiii Facts as to changes iu location and mode of conducting American tishj eries The Fisheries have changed from shore fishing to deep sea & Ban fishing. The mackerel fishery has changed from the hand line and liool to use of seines The Bay of St Lawrence fishery has decreased tro 300 vessels yearly to 40 last year Not one of the vessels tluiL went the Bay of St Lawrence last year paid their expenses HAltVEY KNOWLTO.XJR Sworn and subscribed to before me, this tliirtv first day of MaylSi (Seal.) JDAVID VV. LOW 1 Notary Puhhci 11 Treaty, so 18 follows : two vessel yearly in tive vear8 ....T'Jo'BbU not none r^l,m vessel yearly U It ler mo — 8^'^ \ vessel yearly ami packing, ,bove...8lli0()0 One s.viw Eleven _';' 81,00 altiiiji, ..... ...•'?--"0 sliores wM\t ^ uouel .lul various snii ^acU vessel yeaj' sloUl "'.'sl',000yearl; _. noui eovges St Pete l>,av St LHNvrenci .... \»OtllUl '.". .....iHitliiii] jgAuiericanti^liI deep sea ^^ R'^"' ,aua line ami boo ^s deevease.l tror isels lluiL weui ,t.VayofMi>yl^' W. LOW Kotaru P"*'''^' AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 69. 3135 This is to certify, That the undersigned, composinp the firm of Sid- lev Friend & Co have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Wvears, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in eflfect, our vessels have been employed as follows : % of Vessels employed 13 >o. of Trips made sixty per year — for all the vessels >o, of Trips to Bay St Lawrence (4) four (or whatever) So. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 1065 ii'o.^f Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- (liiig Magdalene Islands none Average value of Vessels each 86000, each Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c about $700, per trip, or $2800, per year Average value of Insurance $4500, each vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $35, per month Average value of Commissions, &c 3 per ct on gross stjck — to Skipper Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore tlilKKi, for Establishment & $4400, for labor making |1I),4(I0, inclusive yuuiber of Vessels lost one Value of Vessels lost, including outfits $0000. Value of Fish lost none i'umber of Lives lost 13 Total valne of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per cwt. in cts [Total valne of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, 4:c,, per bbl , $1. Ilotal value of Fish taken within three miles of British shore., none llotal valne of ]\Iackerel do Xone Jiverage value of American Shore Mackerel 15, for ones, $12, for twos $8, for threes |Average market value of Bay Mackerel '$12. for ones; $8. for twos ; $6. for threes lAvHRge earnings of the operative fishermen per year $250, |ivti;ige auionut paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $200, each vessel. |iinoiint paid to British fishermen for herring $300, |imoiint paid to British fishermen as wages $150, Dount paid in British ports for repairs $1,000, wations frequented by American vessels for Fish Gd Bank,Le Have, Bradlee, Orphan wations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel from Long Island to New Foundland. Ntial valne of Fish in the water, before taking nothing Ittual valne of Mackerel in the water, before taken nothing |Ws as to changes in location and mode of conducting American Ifelierles [||ie Halibut «& Cod fisheries are entirely deep-sea fisheries within no jnrisdiction. The mackerel fishery has largely changed from *li & line fishing to seine fishing — the American shore mackerel m rfiS|?;i m ■fx- ■W' ■ 4f ■'Vm ]■■ iswff- V:. 3136 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. bringing one third more in price than the Bay mackerel on account of quality. The Bay of St Lawrence fishery for mackerel has gradually deterio- rated intiil we cannot send vessels there at any profit wliatcvei. Those vessels we have sent the past seven years have not paid their exiwuses We consider the Bay Fishery a failure and worthless to Aniericaii lishei men. SIDNi-:Y FIMKNJ) Sworn and subscribed to before me, this first dav of June 1877 (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xolanj Pttblic No. 70. -^ This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of David Low and Co have been engaged in the fishing business for the past twenty five years, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Wa.sliinjjton i Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed fourteeni No. of Trips made Six trips vearl v each vessel] ' 1872 1873 1874 1875 18761 No. of Trips to Bay of St. Lawrence 5 5 2 10 1872 1873 1874 1875 18761 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Law- rence 1250 750 440 200bls( No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iuclud^ ing Magdalene Islands not one tent Average value of Vessels each Six thousand dollars each Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c Seventeen Hundred dollars value each vessel Average value of Insurance nine per cent vessel «& outfit Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo Thirty dollars eacj Average value of Commissions, &c Two hundred dollan Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packiug including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Thirty five thousand dollatj Number of vessels lost on Value of Vessels lost, including outfits five thousand dollar Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iS:c. per cw fifty Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, saltino;, &(| per bbl two dolla Total value of Fish taken within threemilesof British shores iio| Total value of Mackerel do Six hundred dolla Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Sixteen, twelve, &ei|| Average market value of Bay Mackerel Eleven, Seven i Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Two hundred fil Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supj)^ four thousand dollars yea AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3137 Affionnt paid to British flMhermeu for herring Two thousand dollars yearly Amount paid to British fishermen as wafjes Vmouut paid in British ports for repairs.. five hundred dollars yearly ix)catious frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Bank iS. (leorgies Locations fioquented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Bay of St Lawrence Actnal value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken nothing Facts as to changes iu location aud mode of conducting American tisberies After first of July we used to send most of our vessels ten years ago— to Bay of St Lawrence — but of late years that fishing proveng of JO value, our vessels looseing money, we have confined them entirely to oar own shores and the ocean banks, we send no vessels in the Brittish waters for fish or mackerel and only enter them for bait and Supplies for which we pay cash, we consider the Brittish inshore fisheries a wniplete failure ' BENJAMIN LOW Sworn aud subscribed to before me, this first dav of June 1877 (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xotary Public No. 71. Tbisis to certify. That the undersigned, composing the firm of Leigh- toD&Cobave been engaged iu the fishing business for the past nine hears, at Gloucester Mass and that since the Washington. Treaty, so Italled, has been in eflfect, our vessels have been employed as follows : ho, of Vessels employed Eighteen Ikof Trips made.. Averaging about Eight Trips yearly to each vessel V fT • . T> a*. T 1873 1873 1874 1875 1876 io.of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence . -^ ^^.^^^ ^^ ^rips 4 Trips 1 Trip l^Trip IkofBarrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence . ggg^ 40^3 ^y^^i ^309^134 |k of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdaleue Islands Not more than 450 Bbls. (Four Hundred & fifty) livfrajie value of Vessels each $7500.00 liverage value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $1500.00 for Bay Trips or Bank J Trips each liwage value of Insurance 9% per annum on Ves.sel & outfits liwajje value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo I $35.00 per month prage value of Commissions, &c $;}0(>,00 Iwage value of Whaves, Fish-houses, &c., for (Hiring and packing, j including expenses of Clerks, Proi>rietors and labor on shore $30,000. yearly ■ of Vessels lost Nine [ilue of Ves.sels lost, including outfits Averaging $8000.00 pDenf Fish lost $1000.00 each fmber of Lives lost Seventy five |tiil value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per cwt. Seventy five cts .ill kinds 1 value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per 1 .Two Dollars 191 F v«» ... • ■ t».,".'""\-iii, s 3138 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Total vnlae of Fish taken within three miles of British shores . . . Not any Total value of Mackerel do $900.00 (nine Hundred i)()llara) Average market value of American Shore Mackerel ..^Hi.iH)$l2m & h.(H> Average market value of Bay Mackerel 12.00 SM) & fi.oo Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year . . from iu'do to i,m. Average amount paid iu British ports for bair, ice, and vurious sup- plies 8i00. per Vessel, yearly Amount paid to British fishermen for herring qfGOdiMH) yearly Amount paid to British fishermen as wages about $200. yearly Amount paid in British ports for repairs about §5(K» yearly Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Georges, Grand Banks also Western Bauk Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Capes of Virginia to Bay of Clialeur Autual value of Fish in the water, before taking Worth nothing in the water, value in the labor and capital Actual value of Mackerel iu the water, before taken the same as flsli Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American Usli- eries We were once largely engaged in Mackerel fishery iu Bay of .St Lawrence but this is now unprofitable owing to poor quality tSt decrease in quantity of the Mack'l of late years All vessels sent there of late years returning largely in debt. Our vessels now being employed ou j the banks for fish and on our shores for mack'l using seines entirely in- stead of Hooks for Mackl — and trawls mostlv for fish ANDREW LEIGHTON > WALTER M FALT } LEKiHTON & CU. GEORGE A. UPION ) Sworn and subscribed to before me, this first day of June 1S77 (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xutary Ptthlk No. 72. This is to certify that the undersigned, composing the firm of late Dodd & Tarr now James G Tarr & Bro have been engaged iu the fish^ ing business for the past twenty five years, at Gloucester Mass and thalj since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessel^ have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed Tweivd No. of Trips made Six trips yearly, to each Vessel, if 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1S76 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 4 2 4 3 0 3 total 1( No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1870 1287 "!,'■ 888 ".';' 672 "'' 1124 ''" 0 liiO ;" Total 4.161 No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiiclu(liu| Magdalene Islands about one-tenth, (Most caught ott' sbon Average value of Vessels each five Thousand Dollaj Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c. . . $2,500 per year for each Vessf Average value of Insurance S^i^ Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. Capt $75 Crew $35 per Mod] Average value of Commissions, &c 200 yearly each Vesf Average value of Wharves, Fish- houses, &c., for curing and packinj including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ($31,000) Thirty one thousand Dollars .yeaH AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3139 yniuber of Vesaels lost Four V«li:e of Vessels lost, iucluding outUts $28,500 VahieofFish lost $3,000 Number of Lives lost thirty one Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, »S:c. per cwt. One Dollar Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c.,per bbl two Dollars Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores None taken Total value of Mackerel do $1300 Nol 2 3 \verage market value of American Shore Mackerel — $16, 12, 8 Nol 2 3 Average market value of Bay Mackerel 12 8 fi Average earningsof the operative fishermen i)eryear.$2]5forpast0 years Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ioe, and various supplies $.j,000 yearly total in six years $30,000 Amount paid to British tlshemen tor herring $4,100 yearly " '< " » $24,600 Amount paid to British fishermen as wages hired none Aiaount paid in British ports for repairs $1780 Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Gd Bank Georges Jirowns Lehave Bradelle &c Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel from Sandy Uook to Hay St Lawrence Actual value of Fish in the water, be fore taking Nothing, as raw material valueless I Actual value of Mackerel in the water before taken.. ,.. " " " " " [Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- Inies During the last four years Mackerel in the Bay of St Lawrence liavebeen comparatively scarce. Seineshave gradually been introduced |iiitil at present time hook fishing is nearly obsolete. Seine fishing in i Bay of St Lawrence <& Chaleur is not practical and has proved a jrough failure and the business has been abandoned The Mackerel lishery is confined to the American coast The Bay Codfishery has been llivcii up for years not a dozen trips has been madefrom this port within hi years We depend upon the deep sea Banks entirely for Halibut & If "Ifisb and employ the British shore boats and fishermen in taking Her- [niigaiiil pay them their price DAVID TARE JAMES G. TARR Swn and subscribed to before me, this 3lst day of May 1877 Seal,) DAVID \V. LOW Notary Public No. 73. [^tiisis is to certify, that the undersigned, composing the firm of Smith '^ 'bave been engaged in the fishing business for the past 10 years, '(iloucesier Mass. and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, 'been iu effect, our vessels have been employed as follows: '■of Vessels employed Fifteen ^■df Trips made Six to each vessel yearly 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 ^Tl^ K.t::;. J? '^ hi p>^ W>-^>i t ■. i'\i ^s':' '£wm mwr. ¥ "f ' i m ¥3K j||S m 1 mm i^ffl 3140 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3 1870 No. of Ti iiw to Bay St. Lawrence 4 5 "> 1872 1873 1.S71 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Buy St. Lawrence 1000 1000 75(» 0(i() 300 No. ot Barrels of Mackerel caught within .'J miles of shore, not iiMhidiiiL' Magdalene Islands most caught around the Ma<;(liiltMie IsIuikU Average value of Vessels each sJKnm) Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, iL'0(i vcai Amount paid in British ports for repairs nou Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks, La Have, Gidigi Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Bay St. La wren Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking notliinj Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken uotliiiii Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American tisii| eriea The fisheries have changed from hook and line fishing to trawl fisbiu^ and from line fishing to seining for Mackerel We have tliroiiy;lily ft ^te the St. Lawrence fishery, and find it is a failure, our ^ essi |»a\ia their expenses, We shall send no vessels the i Uii ear. Uu codtin ing is pursued outside of the jurisdiction o' ,1 ion, 011 tln' oce ' ADDISON GOLT SYLVANUS ilTfll 8M1TH & GOLl Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 31st da\ ' May 1877 DA\11) W. LOW (Seal.) Xotury FM^ No. 74. This is to certify. That the undersigned, composing the firm of Cli & Somes have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Tsvei AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3141 vesrH, at Gloucester Mass., iiiul that since tlie WnsliliiKtoii Tronty, so wlleil, li»8 ^'t'cn iu eft'ect, our vessels have been employed us follows: >o. of Vessels employed . Eleven So, of Trips made (5") yearly) Five each vessel yearly 1872 1873 J 874 1875 1870 Si), of Trips to Bay of St. Lawrence 4 4 2 0 1 1872 187;{ 1874 J 875 yo.ofBarrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 812 080 300 0 GO >'ii. of Hiurels of ALickerel cau^bt within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdiileiie Islands.... . ..None of any consequence; not one tenth Avenifje value of Vessels each Six thousand Dollars Average value of Outtits, Salt, Bait, &c $2,500 Average value of Insurance 9 pr ct on Vessel & outtits Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $40 Average value of Commissions, &c $250 each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iiiclmling expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. $30,000 dumber of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Snmber of Lives lost I Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &g. per 50 ewt. cts I Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per 1 $1,50 value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . . .None I Total value of Mackerel do $360 No 1 No 2 No 3 I .\verage market value of American Shore Mackerel . . $10 $ 12 $8 No 1 No 2 No 3 [Average market value of Bay Mackerel $11 $7 $5 liverage earnings of the operative fishermen per year $250 leverage aiuouut paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies $3000 yearly limonnt paid to British fishermen for herring $2500 " liiuomit paid to British fishermen as wages liinoiiDt paid in British ports for repairs |Locatiou8 frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks Georges Western Bks |k)catioiis frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Gulf St Lawrence lictiwl value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing jictual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing iFtttsasto changes iu location and mode of conducting American fish- iBies We have formerly sent vessels to the Bay of St Lawrence from ftetliird to ^ of our fleet, but the constant reduction in quantity and Quality of the mackerel has rendered that fishery not only unprofitable t absolutely ruinous to continue in it. Our shore mackerel are worth fire inoiiej- are more readily taken are iu better condition. Our sys- ofspiuiug cannot be applied in the Bay of St Lawrence as in shoal Pit^ rocky bottom breaks the seine, and in deep water the Herring lie seine and sink carrying the Mackerel with them.. Our vessels ftfr British Waters only to purchase supplies Ice Bait &c for which T pay cash JOHN E SOMES GEORGE CLARK Jr 3ii^Z:»«*. ii^M-^m ... >y.^_ m ^M ^^ 3142 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 1 l.STJ 120 187(1 Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 2Ctli day of.Tulv 1877 (Seal.) DAVID W.LOW Notary PuhUc No. 7o. This is to certify, That the undersigned, coinposinj;- tlie linn df j p Munson & Company have been engaged in the Hsliing biKsiiicss tor the past twenty-live years, at Gloucester Mass and tliat siiuie tlif Wasliiipr. ton Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have boon cniitloyed as follows : No. of Vessels employed (T,.||) ,'io) No. of Trips made Six trips yearly oadi vessel 1.S72 i87;j 1S74" is;.-) i,s:g No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawreuce o 2 2 1872 1873 187 1 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 500 i~>i) 510 No. of Barrelsof Mackerel caught withiu 3 miles of shore, not iiu'liidinir Magdalene Islands all caught at Mautlnlen's Average value of Vessels each •'i'o,0(iO ; Average value of Outflts, Salt, Bait. &c. $1,000 for Bay trip 8000 for (leorj-vs Bii-.^j Average value of Insurance 9 p<^r ct on Vessel ^nc Outfits Average value of Captains' raid Crews' time, viz., w.ages per mo s:',r}\ Average value of Commissions, &c 400 oaoii vpssd j Average value of Wharves, F;sh-houses, &c., I'ov curing and paciiin;'.] including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and hibor on siion;. .L'(i,(iiii)| Number of Vessels lost 2" Value of Vessels lost, including outfits ■i'l'i.iiiio Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost 12 Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting. i\:c. per cwt.rj Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ^k^•., \wt bbl 'M Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores.. iiotbiiu Total value of Mackerel do " Average market value of American Shore Mackerel 10, 12,1 Average nuirket value of Bay Mackerel II 7 Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year $25 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup plies .'i'^OiH) yeaii| Amount paid to British fishermen for herring . . GOOO yearly last live jwii| Amount paid to British fishermen as vages Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Actual value of fish in the water, before taking . . niitliia Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken iictliia^ Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Anieiiciiii li$| eries Trawls have taken the place of hand-lines for fisli ami Seiii<"< mostly used for Mackert*'. Shore oft' the coast of the U Stales iiiiKien ling is more profitable than any other shorter trips & better Macko^ The Vessels we have sent to the Bay of St Lawrenee havo not iir their expenses We should have difiiculty in shipphig a eiew lor ' Bay We consider that fishery an entire failure The «iiiality <'( CK AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3143 onshore.. •ii',t>">' Mackeroll and the great expense of the Bay trips makes it impossible to do any fishing there. None of our vessels use the inshore lisherits of the Dominion ( JOHN F, WONSON & CO JOHN F. WONSON ^ FKFDEKIC G. WONSON ROGElt, W, WONSON [ FRANKLIN A. WONSON. Sworn and subsciibed to before me, this 31st day of May 1877 (Seiil.) DAVII) W.LOW Xotary Vublic No. 7G. STATEMENT OF A. G. PROCJTEK, OF PROCTER. TRASK .*n: CO. WHOLESALE FlSIl DEALERS, (iLOUCESTER MASS.VCUU- SKTTS. Intlie way of information touching the value of Fish talien ia Eng- lish waters, I would state that our firm is extensively engaged in the mirchase of Herrings and Mackerel along the shores of the Gulf of St. Lwrenco, Magilalen Islands and New Foundland. That we have pur- clwil of the British fishermen along these shores, during the past Eighteen months, about Twenty thousand (20.000) barrels of Herrings : That we i)ay for the Herrings — delivered to our vessels at the Magdaleu Islands bv the British fishermen — Six (6) cents per barrel. These Her- rings are caught in their own seines, and delivered from their owu kats; and six (6) cents per barrel is the regular price charged for for the fish so delivered during the season. That for the Herrings caught on the upper shores and along Anticosti Island we pay on an average Ttu! 10) cents per barrel. One cargo received by us during the past moi'iii, consisting of Eighteen hundred (1800) barrels, cost in gold One iHdred eiglity two ($182) Dollars. This was the actual cost of the Herrings delivered, /Ves/i, on the deck of onr vessel, and includes the ase of the seines, nets and boats of tlie English fishermen and their iibor in securing and delivering. That the average cost of the New Foundhuul Herring taken at I'ortune Bay, Hooiie Bay and Bay of Islands delivered to our vessels, fresh — is Fifty (r)0) cents per barrel. IMs class of Herrings are all caught in n<'^s, which method increases itiejost. Tiie nets used cost about Twelve (12) Dollars each, and they ^iltaverafjo to wear only about two seasons ; the price mentioned iu- tliides all wear and tear of nets and gear, use of boats and labor in de- iverinn;. Some of these Herrings are brought from thirty to forty niilfs ill boats to be delivered to our vessels. In all the Herring fish- ws, as tar as our actual experience goes, in the British waters, my "tlKineiit is, that the cost to us of the product as delivered to our vessels iSimtmore than equal lo the value of the labor actually expended in ^turin;; and delivering them, including the cost and wear and tear of ^material used. t'lr J[«iA<';r/ caught in British waters, along the .shores mentioned, 'fRV trotn Three (3) to Four (4) Dollars per barrel. This is for mack- (rclilelivcred ready for packing from their boats, and includes the use •iPMiPUsive gear, cost of splitting and labor, ami cost of delivering. Ilifc abundance of Mackerel on our own shore for the past four or five !^rs; their superior quality and low price has made it more profitable wusto purchase mackerel caught on our owu shore, than those caught .■' y fi 3144 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. in English waters ; even at the low price at which the Englisli lish were off'ered. We buy and dispose of $350,000. worth of fish yeai iy. A G PKOCTElt COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. Essex ss. Gloucester July I'Stli IS77 Then personally appeared the above named Addison G. Procter and made oath that all the foregoing statements by him subscribed are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. (Seal.) No. 77. Before me DAVID AV. LOW XoUuij Public I Aaron Smith Master of the schooner Cora E Smith I was boru iu North Haven. Maine do depose & say That 1 started from (lloucester on the 25th of April 1877 for a Mackerel voyage off Block Lslaiid was absent one Month and took 200 Barrels Mackerel with seiue. all No 3 and worth Six Dollars per Bbl On the 8th of June 1877 .started on a trip for shore Mackerel and took 100 Bbls at round Pond State of Maine These Mackerel were tLken within 10 rods of the shore Most of tbese Mackerel were No 2 and brought 12 dollars per Bbl on an average. I have been 20 years engaged in fishing for Mackerel have been eleven] seasons in the Bay of St Lawrence never done so well there as ou our own shores. I have assisted in taking over 3500 Barrels of Mackerel ia the Gulf of St Lawrence and of that amount not 200 Barrels were taken within 3 miles of the shore and so far as I know the same proportiouj will hold in the catch of other American Vessels. Ten years ago wheu 1 •we depended on the Hook fishing the Gulf of St Lawrence Mackerell fishery could be pursued to advantage but since the iutroduction ofj seines it cannot be pursued profitably AARON SMITH State of Massachusetts ) County of Essex j Gloucester Aug. 13tb 1877. Then personally appeared the above named Aaron Smith and maiid oath that the above statement bv him subscribed is true. Before me (Seal.) " DAVID W. LOW Xotunj Pithlk Also appeared Jerome B. Thomas one of the Crew of Schooner Corii E. Smith who ou oath, deposes and says that the above statement b^ Aaron Smith Master is true, he also deposes and says that lie wa Master of Sch. David Brown Jr. in 1860 & 1870 and prosecuted tli^ Mackerel Fishery in the Bay of St. Lawrence that I did so poorly tha I left fishing as an occupation for several years and consider that Mack erel Fishing with Seines ou American Shores more profitable than tli^ Bay fishing. My residence is North Haven in State of Maine. JEKOME B THOMAS; State of Massachusetts \ County of Essex t Gloucester Aug 13. ISn Then personally appeared the above named Jerome 1>. Tliomns a made oath that the above statement by him subscribed is true, inioq me (Seal.) • DAVID W. LOW AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3145 yo. 78. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the tirui of E. Bnrrill & Co have been engaged in the fishing business for the past 14 vears, at Newbuiyport Mass and that since the Washington Treat}', so called, bas been in ett'ect, our vessels have been employed as follows : >o. of Vessels employed Six, jo, of Trips made Averaging from four to Six Trips yearly to Bay and home Fishing 1872. 1873. 1874. 1875. 1870 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 4. 4. 4. 3. none. 1872. 1873. 1874. 1875. 1876 >o, of liarrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Liiwrence 1000 9C0 758. 555, none So, of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, including Magdalene Islands 5G0 Bbls. or about that, including Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each 7000 Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c For Bay trip say 1000$ Average value of Insurance 9 pr ct on schooners and outfi.ts. Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo say Per Mo 35S. Average value of Commissions, &c 250$ i Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iucludiug expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore say 12000$ 1 kinbers of Vessels lost .... one. (say 12000$) Value of Vessels lost, including outfits say 7500$ Value of Fish lost say 3000$ 1 \Qniber of Lives lost none |lotal value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt jlotal value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per ibl Two dollars llotal value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores.. not any \ln\ value of Mackerel do 5<1120. including Magdalene Isls liverage market value of American Shore Mackerel 10$ 12$ 8$ liverage market value of Bay Mackerel , 12$ 8$ 6$. liverage earnings of the operative fishermen per year from 140$ to 250$ [iverage amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- fa , say 408$ yearly. liffiOHiit paid to British fishermen for herring limomit paid to liritish fishermen as wages limoiuit paid in British ports for repairs I according to damages by gales. |Watinii!< frequented by American ves.sels for Fish cations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel from Capes of Virginia to Bay Chaleur H value of Fish in the water, before j ^^^^^^ ,^^j,^j„^ .^ ^j,^ ^^^^^ LlvalueofMackerelinthe water, be. f HZ^^T^ *" ^^^ ^^''^"' '« taken \ & <-ai>itaL pkas to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- Oiir\e8sels. have always been in the Mackerel fishery, and were l.*i ..>?^ V r ilie •'-;'" J Til !''t*1 ;ji 3146 AWAKD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. formerly employed in the Bay of St Lawrence, but for the last few years, owing to the small catch, and poor quality of the Fish, have been obliged to flsh upon the American shore, using seines. W(> did >,(»,„i for two years seines in the Bay of St Lawrence, but they were never used there, and were put on shore and kept until the vessels returned home in the Fall, making to us, an expense, for which we IukI no enuiv- aleut. E. BL^RUILL. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this eighteenth day of May IS" (Seal.) E. F. BAKTLi-rrT' yotani I'uhlir No. 79. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of I. H Boardman and T. H Boardman & Co. have been engaged in the fishing business for the past forty years, lit Newbnryport, Mass — and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed average ."» j early j No. of Trips made averaging 5 to each vessel vearld 1872 1873 1874 1875 m\ No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 12 9 5 — 2 1872 1873 1874 1875 is;6l No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 3100 17.J6 1240 470 2.i3| No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not incUKliiig| Magdalene Islands not exceeding 400 Bbl« Average value of Vessels each SSJiK Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c y^VM^ Average value of Insurance 9 pr ct for vessel, yearlj Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, vi/.., wages per mo $WJ Average value of Commissions, &c *:iO Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packiugj including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors, and labor on shore say $14,000 yoaiii Number of Vessels lost NoaJ Value of Vessels lost, including outfits — X()tliin| Value of Fish lost Non Number of Lives lost twi Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iSrc, \m cwt Sevent ytive cen^ Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &o per bbl one dollar & fifty tenj Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores .... Xoif Total value of JM'ckerel do ^ ^^ Average market v due of American Shore Mackerel $10 It- Average market value of Bay Mackerel $11. ^'^- Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year from $150 to ^'\ Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplij about $350 pr vessel yeaif Amount paid to British fishermen for herring $;{000 yean Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $900. yiafl Amount paid in British ports for repairs $400 yearly averaj Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Georges, Grand Barf Western Banks Labrador & Newtbuudlauil Coia AWARD OF THE FISHERY COALMISSION. 3147 Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel from Cape Henry to Bay Chaleiir. Actual value of Fish in the water before taking nothing whatever Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken same value Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries Many years ago, we were largely interested in the Mackerel Fisheries offiiiiig quite a fleet of vessels and which were largely employed in the Bay of St Lawrence fisheries : of late years owing to the scarcity of Fish jo those w liters, & the poorer quality of them, we have gradually aban- doned the Fishing grounds there, and have employed our vessels on our m Shores in Hook Fishing, but mostly with Seines, at the present season we shall not send a single vessel to the Bay of St Lawrence for thecatcbing of Mackerel, for our vessels in those waters have not, of late, paid their expenses, the two vessels employed by us the past sea- son in the Bay of St. Lawrence, with large crews and employed during tliewliole season, landing only 105 & 70 Bbls. respectively. ISAAC H BOARDMAN for T. H BOAUDMAN & CO. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this twenty ninth day of May hi: [Seal.] E. F. BARTLETT, yotary Public As to the liberty conceded by the " Treaty of Washington " to the American Fishermen, to take Fish within three miles of the shores of the Provinces, it is, practically, of little value, inasmuch as most of their Maciierel are taken by our Fishermen outside of that line, and in our opin- , the liberty so granted, is much more than overbalanced by allowing 1 the Provinces to import Fish of all descriptions into the markets of the United States, free of duties, thus competing successfully with our own Fisliermeu, together with the right to fish on our shores for Mackerel, 111! which occupation they now are employed in seining on our Southern toast,) together with all other kinds of Fish including Bait, on which itie Province Fishermen in a great measure depend for their supply from the United States. — In my opinion, (and I speak now from an ex- btrience of more than forty years,) and that of many American Fisher- wiiand owners of Fishing vessels with whom I have conversed, the Provinces have by far, in a pecuniary point of view, an overwhelming idvantage already by the terms of the Treaty. In fact, the concession M(ie to our Fishermen is of little pecuniary value, the only real benefit iMlie avoiding of conflicts between the American Fishermen and the irmed Cruisers of the Provinces, by the former fishing on or near an jiMgiuary line, and by the seizure and condemmition of American ves- iii some instances, solely by the preponderance in numbers of evi- iJeDce by the larger crews of the crui.ser8, which have heretofore been jitted out and maintained at a large expence to the Provincial or British Ifiovermnents, and thus creating trouble and hostile feeling between Itiie contending parties, and the people of both nations.— I. U. BOARDMAN ^'ewburyport Mass. May. 1877. No. 80. Jilts is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Ire- '^; Tret'ethen have been engaged in the fishing business for the past 3148 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. of Trips to Bay St. Liiwreuce. Twenty three years, at Newburyport and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in ett'ect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed Xhree No. of Trips made Six yearly to eadi vessitl 187G 1875 1874 187.'} Is;^ "1 1 1 11 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. ^ o-^ , ^.~ ,^^, , _,, Lawrence ^^^^ ^^''^ ^^'^ ^'^''^ 18'- ijawrence .^^^^^ ^,^^ ^^.^^^ ^,.^ ^^^,. No. of Barrels of Mackerell caught within 3 miles of shore, not inciiul. ing Magdalene Islands Caught all off Miigdclcns Average value of Vessels each ;5ooo Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 1000 Dollars for (i nm Average value of Insurance 9 per ct on Vessel »S: Outlits Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages i)er mo 30 Dollars Average value of Commissions, &o $l'00 each vesstl Average value of Wharves, Fish-house, &c., for caring and pack- ing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ijoOOO j Number of Vessels lost one i Value of Vessels lost, including outfits ni3UU0 Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, t&c per cwt. Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, saltinj;', ^:e. per j bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores ...Xonel Total value of Mackerel do Noiiel Average market value of American Shore Mackerel 81G 812 .J8I Average market value of Bay Mackerel * 12 $8 ySl Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 8125, (i MosJ Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sappliesj Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for reptairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish.. Georges &Liiliav^ Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape ^lay to Bay St Lawreuc Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Notliiug Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken XotliinJ Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Aiuericiui Mj eries We have had vessels in the Bay of St Lawrence for past 12 year^ We have now changed our business to Bank fisheries for Cod & Had dock as the Bay of St Lawrence has proved a failure our vessels noj paying us any profit. One of our firm has personally been in this Bar fishery and in one of our vessels. The inshore fisheries of the Doujiuiai is entirely useless to us. GEORGE \V TlfEFKTQEyj for the Jifm Sworn and subscribed to before me, this eighteenth day of .Mayl>JJ [Seal.J E. F. BAKTLETT Notunj PMcl AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3149 No. 81. Tliis is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of R. Ijjyley & Son have been engaged in tiie fishing business for the past }'„iry years, at Newburyport and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, lias been in eftect, our vessels have been employed as follows : >o, nf Vessels employed Two (2) Mackerel One Labrador \oof' Trips made Four " Two " jio, of Trij)s to Bay St. Lawrence Four .\o, of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence S'ven hundred >n, of Hiirrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- ing Magdalene Islands Quantity unknown, very few if any Average value of vessels each Thirty five hundred dolls Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c Thirty-two hundred dolls. Average value of Insurance, Four and one quarter pr. cent a year for six months. Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo., Capt $75. Crew $28 Each Average value of Commissions. &g. Two hund & fifty dolls ea. vessel ea. year Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iucliuiiiig expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Ten thousand dolls. Viinibpr of Vessels lost One I Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Ten thousand dolls 1 Value of Fish lost Eight thousand dolls. 1 Saniber of Lives lost . None Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt. Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, .splitting, salting, &c., per bbl, I Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores No fish, cannot estimate Mack. Ilotal value of Mackerel do. " " " Uvtiage market value of American Shore Mackerel fCleven & a quarer dolls pr. bbl. [Average market value of Bay Mackerel. Seven & one half dolls, pr. bbl. [ivtrage earnings of the operative fishermen per year Two hundred & fifty dolls. [Average auiount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies Two hundred dolls liiiiouiit paid to British fishermen for Herring Two thousand dolls jAiiioniit paid to British fishermen as wages. . .Fourteen Hundred dolls. limotuit paid in British ports for repairs Two hundred & fifty dolls jkatioiis frequented by Anierican vessels for Fish Gulf & Bay of St Lawrence and Labrador Coast [Ijicatious frequented by American vessels for mackerel Cape Henry to East|iort Me. jiftiial value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing ji'tiial value of JNIackerel in the water, before taken Nothing ptsasto changes in location and mode of conducting American Ush- (■nes ^\e have employed our vessels in the Shore, Bay of St Lawrence and l^ibrador flslieries during the past ten years and the business has ""^ftlso miremunerative and hazardous that we have abandoned it. (• ' * 3150 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. The Labrador fishery we consider very uncertain business and the risk very great more especially when the vessels are compeled to stay late in the fall, as is the case most of the time in latter years, in onler to fill up if possible with herring, which have to be procured of tin* resi- dent fishermen R. BAYLEY & SON Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Twenty third day of M iv 1877 ' ■>•-') (Seal.) No. 82. J. T. BP.owy yotari/ Pulilii; This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Charles O. Currier have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Nine years, at Newburyport, Mass. and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed sfix No. of Trips made No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence sodo i No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalen Islands Not Known ^ Average value of Vessels each ,*4(}(to I Average value of outfits, Salt, Bait, &c >'l.j(io j Average value of Insurance . . !J4000 j Average value of Cai>tain8' and Crews' time, viz., wages per ino. 835 i)r month j Average value of Commissions, &c $250 pr year each Vesstll j Average value of Wharves, P^ish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ^80 Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iS:(!., jiercfft.] Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iS:c.. jieri bbl 91,0(1 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores — Total value of Mackerel do Average market value of American Shore Mackerel N'.'.l $17.00 N'.:2$1L50 N.i'.HOi Average market value of Bay Mackerel N'.'.L $11.00 N" 2 $7.00 N:.38.'..)| Average earnings of the ojierative fishermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and yarious sun plies $75 pr vesse| Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs $30.00 pr year pr vesndl Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish 'jocations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Cape May to Gd Menan & Bay St. Lawreuij Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3151 Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries Ou account of the nncertainty of the Bay fishing, most of tlie New- bnn|X)rt Vessels gave up that fishing about twelve years ago, and eu- ujged ill the coast fishing, using Seines instead of hook and lines, doing ii^ir business, while those who continued the Bay Mackerelling, have made a losing business, and will mostly give up, and enter the Shore Ushiug CHAS. O. CURRIER Sworn and subscribed to before me, this twenty-first day of May jseal.) E. F. BARTLBTT yotary PuhUc No. 83. This is to certify, That the undersigned, coni])08ing the iirm of Union Whait Co have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Thirty , Tears, at I'rovincetown Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, so I called, has been in eliect, our vessels have been employed as follows: 1 k of Vessels employed Seventeen k of Trips made Sixty-Eight k of Trips to Bfiy St. Lawrence Six since 1871 I k of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Twelve hundred bbls I k of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- iiii; Magdalene Islands None [Average value of Vessels each Five Thousand dollars liverage vaUie of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c One thousand dollars I Average value of Insurance Four thousand dollars [Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo Thirty dollars [Average value of Commissions, &c Fonr % to Caps of Vessel JAverage value ot Wharves, Fish-houses, «&c., for curing and packing, |*liuliug expenses of Clerks, I*roprietors and labor on shore Twenty five thousand dolls. Ilfofflber of Vessels lost One r'alue of vessels lost, including outfits Five thousand dollars Faliieof Fish lost None jKiiDiber of lives Lost None jloial value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &C. per cwt. I One dollar Ptal value of Mackerel taken, before caring, splitting, salting, &c., per I bbl Two dollars ptal value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . . None pal value of Mackerel do None linage market value of American Shore Mackerel Ten dollars page market value of Bay Mackerel Eight dollars pr bbl ji^wao'e earnings of the operative fishermen per year Two hundred twenty five dollars ptrage amount paid in British ports fur bait, ice, and various supplies Fifty dollars wiiut paid to British fishermen for herring None "Mint paid to British fishermen as wages None ""lint paid in British ports for repairs One hundred dollars 1. ■^^J'XAl 3152 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Locatious frequented by American vessels for Fish Georfjies. Block Island. EuHttMii Shore Locatious frequented by Aniericau vessels for Mackerel Coast of United States i^ tiull St LawriMice Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nutliitii» Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Notiiin^ Facts as to changes in location and mode of couductinj; Aint'iican tist" eries Within the last three years we have had but two vossils en. gaged in Fishing in British VA' aters and they for MacUeroI aloiu'. The Slackerel fishing being done on tlie Coast of the Uninnl States to and along the Eastern Coast of Maine and on (leorges IJnnk— not nsortiiM' to British Waters at all. The Gulf of St Lawrence Fishery is so mi'. profitable that we consider it a failure E ai DYB1{ ) B O GliOSS ! TTX'tikX' niiK ,, A. T. WILLIAMS. ^UMON Will (,) LUTUEK MCKEKSON 3 ^^ Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Eleventh day of May ISTT (Seal.) THUS. IIILIJAIM) 2\'otary Viihlk 'So. 84. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the lirtn oJCeiitnilj Wharf Co formerly R. E. & A. Nickerson & Co. iS: E. S. Smith vS; Coi have been engaged in the fishing business for the past twenty years, at] Frovincetown, Mass. and that since the Washington Treaty, so calld has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of vessels employed Six to twelve (viz some years 6, other years up to twelve! No. of Trips made five to seven yearly to each Vessell No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence none since 1873J No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. L9,wrence none since isisl No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not incliuliugj Magdalene Islands any since 1873, but few inside of 3 miles ever 187;} ]."•() Rbls Average value of Vessels each Forty five hundred dolliu's Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 2500$ to each Vossel| Average value of Insurance . . ••'I'JO Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages ])er mo Captain (J")..* dew 2S,i Average value of Commissions, &c L'OO* each Vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &»;., for euriiig and packiii^J including exi^enses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on sh()ie..^-(iO(J| Number of Vessels loSt ^ one in 1>S73 Value of Vessels lost, including outfits S'ii'fl Value of Fish lost ""^nO Number of Lives lost no"! Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, saltinfr, »S;i:. Iht''^ one dollar on CodlisI Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting. ,!* per-year AiiiDiiiit [taitl in Hritisli ports for repairs thus far suiall repairs, but liable to largo in case of accident Lw.itioiis frequented by American vessels for Fish (Irand, Western & (roorges liunks Lixatious frequented by American vessels for Maiikerel from Cape May to Eastport, and Georges Ranks .Utiial value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Aitiiiil value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing Fads as to changes in location and mode of coiulucting American tish- erics We have sent no Vessels into the P.ay of St. Laurence for Mackerel *iiicel.S73 and only two for Codfish, The tacts are we do find the fish- la;; business, (more especially for Mackerel in the Hay of 8t Lawrence) i»not iMji, that is our experience and is the oidy reason that we have iiiostwlioly discontinued sending our V^essels their, and than again iMcrel takeing their are not as Valuable as those taken on our Coast, jtishing grounds are far distant, bad weather sets in much earlier Itieirthan on our Coast, makeing it more hazardous, also as most of the llackerel now are taken with Seines and we consider the Bay a very liiciilt place for Seining. We consider the fishing grounds in Bay of ISLLuirenco inside of three miles from Shore (especially for Mackerel) Ipractieally useless to us, and would not fit a Vessel under any consider- lioii, looking to that locality for the success of their Voyage CENTRAL WHARF CO by A. NickerS0x\ ATlvlNS NICKEKSON ) JAMES A. SMALL 1^ , , „'; ,• n ABNER B. RICH f ^'"''"' " ^'"''^ ^"^ NATHAN YOUNG \ Siihseiibed and sworn to before me this ninth day of Juno A. I). 1S77 (Seal.) B. F. HUTCHINSON Xotary PubUc No. 85. %r :¥'J I Iliisis to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of U &. i(Vik\Ci) have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Pfiity live years, at Provincetown INIass and that since the Washing- piiTicaty, so called, has been in ett'ect, our vessels have been employed f follows : f'of Vessels employed Eight 'otTrips made one trip yearly total Eight Trips i«. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence One Trip in 187G Cod Fishing (Failure) '•ot Barrels of Mackerel from, Bay St. Lawrence None I'Ofllarrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- |'»? Magdalene Islands None 198 p 3154 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Average value of Vessels each Five Tlioiisand dollars Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &g $3,0()() to jiich vwt'l Average value of [nsurance ijlL' 18.00 (.juih vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages por mo. *»«») Forty Dollar Average value of Commissions, &c ijt.'io I'lHy Average value of Wharvt'S, Fish-houses, &c., for curiiif; and packiti!; including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor oti shore 11.2.000 Twelve Thoiisnnd Dollars 1 Number of vessels lost i\y^ Value of Vessels lost, including outfits $14,000 Fourteen TliouMind Dollars! Value of Fish lost 1112,000 Twelve Thousi.nd Dollars No. of Lives lost .Tliirteouj Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, k\:('. pur cwt 75 cts Seventy live contg Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, saUiiig. vVe. I per bbl. 'I Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British sliort^a >'one| Total value of Mackerel do >' qu^ Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Average market value of Bay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 8200. ( Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various stipiili Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Notliiiid Amount paid to British fishermen as wages ifGUOjOO Yeailj Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish From Long Island to Newfouudlan Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Notbin Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fls| eries For the last fifteen years we have sent two vessels only to the Bny( St Lawerenc Cod Fishing and both voyages proved a failure, for th past eight or ten years the fishing in the Bay St Lawerenco has been] no profit to us for neither Cod or Mackeral Fishing, and the yearot ISj was nearly a Total failure, the Mackerel Fishing is carried ou now f Seining and our vessels at Frovincetown do better at fishing near home, our cod Fishermen do not fish in British limits, and it does i pay for our Mackerel Fishermen, H & S COOK & CC Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Ninth day of May 1877 (Seal.) THOS. HILLIAIID Notary I'liblk No. 8G. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Fj Freeman have been engaged in the fishing business for tbe pastPj years, at Provincetown Mass and that since the Washington Trentyj called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows No. of Vessels employed ; ^j No. of Trips made ° No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence ten in five years cod lis^ AWAKD OF THE FISIIEUY COMMISSION. 3155 jio. of Biirrols of Mackerel from Hay St. Lawroiice noiio >'o.of Hiu'i't^lH of Mackerel caught witliiu 3 niik'H of shore, not including Magdalene Ishmds none Arprago value of Vessels each $ 1,UU0. iveragti value of Oiitllts, Salt, Bait, &c iJ'JOOO Each vessoll yearly Average vuUie of Insurance i^ 150 Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. $35,00 Average value of Commissions, &o 100 Each vessoll yearly Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor OB shore $ 1 5,000 ^iiinbiT of Vessels lost none Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Ouo Value of Fish lost ^'lIIuber of Lives lost iotal value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. percwt $1,00 kilviilue of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ,^c,, per bbl $2,00 1 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. none Total value of Mackerel do none No 1 No 2 No 3 I Average market value of American Shore Mackerel ^.g a.^, a^ I Average market value of Bay Mackerel "^o ^ ^^^ ^g ^ [Average earninps of the operative fishermen per year 8200, [Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies nothing lAnioaut paid to British fishermen for herring nothing poimt paid to British fishermen as wages nothing liiuouut paid in British ports for repairs nothing Ikatious frequented by American vessels for Fish Western and Grand Bank Georges & Block Island ].s frequented by American vessels for Mackerel American Shores Bay St Laurence lictual value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing littiial value of Mackerel in the water, before taken nothing |ki,s as to changes in location and mode of conducting Amer- m tLslieries Ilie Fisheries have changed from shore fishing to deep sea and Bank l-'iiiiiganumberof Vessels sent to Bay St Laurence from this port last I: '1 foiling on Bank Bradley on Orphen and did not pay expenses IV do not use the British wortes in side of thre miles for any fisherys I'batever F M FREEMAN Sworn and subscribed to before me, this ninth day of May 1877 Be- liite the subscriber a Notary Public for the Countv of Barnstable M) B F HUTCHINSON Notary Vuhlic No. 87. lis is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Free- 'and Billiard have been engaged in the fishing business for the past > -^^'Z ill 3156 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. Twenty years, at Provincetown and that since the \Vaf*{iiiif;ton Treaty so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been eiiipToyed as foU lows : No. of Vessels employed No. of Trips made No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence No. of liarrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within li miles of slioro, not includ- ing Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, ^a. Average value of Insurance Average value of Captains" and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. Average value of Commissions, «S:c. Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., lor curing and [lackiiii; | including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on .shore Number of Vessels lost Value cf Vessels lost, including outQts Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c,., \m cwt^ Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, .salting, Accpe^ bbl. ^ Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Total value of Mackerel do. Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Average market value of Bay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various siit plies Aujount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British portc for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Locations frequented by American ves.sels for Mackerel Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Facts as to changes in location and mode of condu'^ting Ameiicau tis eries For eight years last past we have sent our fishing vessels, averapij seven in number to the Grand Banks. During this time have not « a ves.sel to the Gulf of St. Lawrence for fishing purposo.s, from tliefa| that we have been unable to calculate upon any profit wiiicli iiiijr'.iti suit from such voyages. N.D. FREKMAN t-iji^t^afv^ v TiiirruT J. D. HILLIAKD IKLtMAN .V IIILLIAKI Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Eleventh day of l\I:i,v 1>" (Seal.) THUS. llil.I.lAlUi y,)tanj PulilH^ ^0 i5». This is to certify. That the undersigned, composing tlie liniii Crocker & Atwoodhave been engaged in the ti.shing bn.sine.ss tmj past fourteen \ ears, at Provincptown and that since tlie Wasliiiig l.^iis is t(j hH liii AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3157 and viU'lous snf^ Ireaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have beeu employed as !o!!o?vs : No, of Vessels emploj^ed Five *Vo. of Trips made about five trips eacb vessel j'early >„, of Trii)s to Bay St. Lawrence None % of Barrels of IMackerel from Bay St. Lawrence Noue *\o, of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magiialene Islands None Average \ idiie of Vessels each Five Thousand Dollars Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c. . .$2500. on each vessel yearly Average value of Insurance i$300. on " " " Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. . .830. each man per month Aicrage value of Commissions, «S:c. , . .$2.'>0. each vessel yearly Average value of Whar\ es, Fish-houses, ay Mackerel liveragc earnings of the operative fishermen per year 0 livtrage amount paid in British ports tor bait, ice, and various supplies liuiouut paid to British fishermen Ibr herring jimoiiiit paid to British fishermen as wages jlBioimt paid in Br'tish ports for rei)airs |ka ious lie(iuenced by American vessels for Fish JMassachusetts Bay and Nantucket Shoals |locatioiis froquentod by American vessels for Mackerel American Shores north of Cape May. jittBal value of Fish in the water, before taking Valuless jittiia! value of Mackerel in the water, before taken do Y^ctsas to changes in location and mode of conducting American lish- I tries I Oar vessels being engaged in the Mackerel Seining business almost piiisively aitd as they «:ould not Seine fish in Jiritish Waters we were pigiHltoiisli ou the Americnu coast. CKOCKFK & ATWOOD M'oni and subscribed to before me, this ninth dav of Afav 1877 B F HUTCHINSON '^nl) ^^o(^ f^ " . HI?' ^f r;?!^ SM 3158 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. of Vessels employed g^ No. of Trips made , No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence l(^-g No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawreuce \^Ln No. of Barrels of Mackerel canght within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands ^^^^ Average value of Vessels each *,"). OOO Average value of Outits, Salt, Bait, &c .^soy trip_J | Average value of Insurance , $100 each vessel jeaily i Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per ' mo. 935 Avera .',e value of Commissions, &c ^./OO Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and hibor shore 8C00fu IIU1J0 on Number of Vessels lost ThroeJ Value of Vessels lost, including outfits ^(|().ini( Value of Fish lost jisiio Number of Lives lost. uon Total value of Fish taken, before curing, si>littiug. salting, ^g. per cwt Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. Total value of INIackerel do Average market value of American Shore Miifkerel No. $10. no 2. $1 2 no 3. >^S m hi (fm Average market value of Bay Mackerel, sold for no 1. 8ll.no 2. cv #1; Average earnings of the operative flshermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies Amount paid to British fishermen for herring iioi Amount paid to British tishennen as wages iioi Amount paid in British ports for repairs iioi Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish.. Banks XeutDii land Western & Georgies. Locations frequented by American ves^iels for Mackerel... Long Isla Sound to Bay St Lawrence Actual value of Fish in the water, before leaking iintlii Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken notlii Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Amer- ican fisheries The Mackerel Fisheries have changed very much during tbe la>t years formerly the fish \vere caught v/ith Line & Hook l)at now I universal way to take them is with Seius The Cod fisheries have very materially changed the Cod fish were formerly taken witli li*l line & Hook but Trawls are now mostly used. L ur Vessels all ot tlif take their fish from the Banks of New Foundland we have tried Bay fishing but with us it did not pay. Our Mackerl tlsliermeii all them fish in American Waters for the reason that the Buy Hsliiiiir ilj not pay them, as the Mackerel are not lunir as plenty nor are tlicj good a quality as they can find nearer home ^ E. P. cool Sworn and subscribed to before me, this tenth day of IMay I'^'i (Seal.) THOS. HILLIAKI) XoUtni I'mi irera .lrer;i Avera; Amour iaioiir ilDOIlll Fi ferio Aaiial Actual Facts ,1 Pries for t Lwrei) Mr res.« torafres i.'eti.kc '"Jivorn \k tlie a; AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3159 No. 90. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of J & L );Paiiie liftve been engaged in the fishing business for the past Sixteen rears, at I'rovincetown Mass. and that since the Wasliington Treaty, so failed, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : % of Vessels employed Seven ,0 of Trips made One Trip yearly total Seven trips ;» of Trip, to Bay St. Lawrence ,.oue l»'l 'T' ''»" ''?* "J' ^l'* ^ «J aJ W w ^ total 6 yrs 12 vessels. \'o, of Barrels of IMackerel from Bay St. Lawrence .* none jo, of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiu'liuling Magdalene Islands none Average value of Vessels each Four thousand dollars Average of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 82000. to each vessel Average value of Insurance 82 10. each vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. . $35. Average value of Commissions, &c , $50. Average \ ahio of Wharves, Fish-houses, &,c., for curing and ivK'king, iucluding expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor -here 810,000 itT of Vessels lost none jVanaof Vessels lost, including outfits I Tiihie of Fish lost yiimber of Lives lost = I Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, rjalting, &c. per cwt I kill value of ^fackerel taken, before curing, -^plit'.ing, salting, ic, per bbl [Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Total value of Mackerel do [Average market value of American Shore Mackerel [Average market value of Bay ^Mackerel [Average earnings of the operative tishermen i)er year (^200. [Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, ai d various supplies $200 each vessel $400. yearly [Amount paid to British fishermen for herring , nothing Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $400. yearly lAmount paid in British ports for repairs 8100. |Uc;uiuus frequented by xVuierican vessels for Fish From Long Island to Newfonidland including Bay of St Lawrence k^ations frequented by Ainericii i vessels for Mackerel laiial value of Fish in the water before taking nothing lictiial value of Macker^il in the water, before taken |Facts as to changes in location and mode of coiulucting if^.tneri'-un fish- eries For the past Sixteen years wc have sent two vessels toG;ilfof St ILwrence. their voyages have not been as renuinerative as those of |w vessels that have fished in other localities The last year 1870. the pyages iu the Bay of St Lav.'i-ence were almost a total lailure. No fish pt;,keu by our vessels inside of British limits. J & L N PAINE Sworn and subscribed to before me, this ninth day of jNIay 1877 Be- Ifctetbe Subscriber a Notary Public for the County of Barnstable 1^1.) B F HUTCHINSON Xotary Public none one 75 cts. none none (V S S'-f ' * ,4^^'- /I" ■ "'i^0] * > >■ ')) '"^^^ ' '.5? 1 "i • :M' ^ 31G0 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 91. This is to certify, That the uudersigned, composing tlu liim of Pliilii) A Wborf have been engaged in the fishing business for the jiast 8eveu years, at Provincetowu Mass and that since the Washington Tioutv, m called, has been iu effect, our vessels have been employed us tollows: No. of Vessels employed pive No. of Trips made One average time live uioiuhs No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence yo,)p No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of sliore, not includini, Magdalene Islands >oiie Average value of Vessels each $4.5(j() Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c . . $2,000 yearly pr each vessel Average Insurance On each vessel $1500, Outfits insured for full amount Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per uic .)«<3,j,(i(i Average value of Commissions, &c $i00, Each vessel aiiuuaily Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packini;, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore ..'i<7,U00, Number of Vessels lost None Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost One Tcta' value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per CVS t 81,00 Totp.l value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, v'Cc.jj per bbl .*L', Total value ot" Fish taken within three miles of British shores. .0(» yonel Total value of Mackerel do (to None Average market value of American Shore Mftckerel. . .No 1 $10, No '2d $12, No 3s $8. Average market value of Bay Mackerel .... No 1 $12, No 2 SS, No 3 *6i Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 81iO.| Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various siiiv plies 83(i0| Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frjquented by American vessels for Fish Western, and Grand lianli Locations frequented by American vessels for IVIackerel American shores Bay iSt Lawrciic Actual value of Fish iu the water, before taking Notliinj Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Notliiu Facts as to changes iu location and mode of conducting America fisheries In my experience Bay fishing in British waters has been very uiiMro itable and in many cases tended with loss both to owners ami iiewj Our fishing consists larj,'ely of Western and CI rand Dank lisliiiig soin of the snial'er vessels fi>hing around our own shores Do not use the British Maters inside of three miles P A WliUlil" Sworn and subscribed to before me, this ninth day of IMay l>Sn (Seal.) B F llUTCiUNSON yotanj ruhlioi AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 92. 3161 This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of B. A. Lewis & Co have been engaged in the tishing business for tlie past Tffelve years, at Provincetown and that since the Wasliington Treaty, joealleil, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows: >o. of Vessels employed .1 >'o. of Trips made 5 per year >o. of Trips to 1 ■ ay St. Lawrence none for 7 years yo.of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- ing Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each $3000.00 Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $2500,00 per year Average value of Insurance $400,00 " '* Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. .$35.00 Average value of Commissions, &c- $250.00 per year Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, »!tc., for curing and packing, incliidiiig expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. $8000.00 Number of Vessels lost None Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost .Nuiuber of Lives lost One i Iota! value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt. value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per I Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Total value of Mackerel do. Aveiage market value of American Shore Mackerel Average market value of Bay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies liniouutpaid to British fishermen for herring iiuouut paid to British fishermen as wages lAuiotiut paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks jLocations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel JAetiial value of Fish in the water, before taking [ictual value of IMackerel in the water, before taken Faotsas to changes in location and mode of conducting American fisheries Tiitill within 7 or 8 .years we sent Vessels in St Lawrence bay for jkkerel, Oiir experience was that vessels that went there done noth- ing, coukl not pay their expences. So we sent our vessels seineiug off town sliores and found they done much better. This is the expe- Iteiiee of all who sent vessels for Mackciel iu the bay from Provincetown B. A. LEWIS ^fm\ aud subscribed to before me, this tenth day of ]\Iav 1877 I'Seal.) TilOS. UILLLVKD yoturij riiblio No. 93. llliisis to certify. That the undersigned, composing the firm of David pwell liavc I'een engajied in the fishing busine.-is for the past Twenty f v«ii>, ill Provincetown Mass aud that since the Washington Treaty, ■«'led, has been iu efiect, our vessels have been employed as follows : im ^\m'''-^ ('-•la 3162 AWABD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. none 1 (I No. of Vessels employed ^^ No. of Trips made one Trip a vear No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence {,,,,1^, No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence miw No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iuchui ing Magdalene Islands i,^^^^ Average value of Vessels each Forty five IIiirKhcMldoiijirs Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c.Two Thousand dolhirs caoli «('h"r Average value of Insurance Two hundred dollars cacli vessels Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo .. 1535 Average value of Commissions, &c One Hundred Twenty dollars oaoli Scbr Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &g., for curing and paukiti" including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors aiul labor on slioni Fifteen thousand dollars yearly Number of Vessels lost ' none A'alue of Vessels lost, including outfits i. Value of Fish lost , u Number of Lives lost , " Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, sa'iing, &o., per CWt !|<1,0(I 1 Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ^c, per bbl sivii) Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . Total value of Mackerel do Average market value of American Sliore Mackerel I sold for8ll,'>0, •^O&.ii} Average market value of Bay Mackerel had none Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year.8l.jO,()()at my place Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fisljermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks La Have & Western Bank! Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Sidney C. B, Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking notlmi Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken notliin, Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American tisiij eries In regard to Fishing in British waters for the past Seven years it lia not (in general) been profitable, Codfish have been plentier nearer lionii and the prices for new fish being better than for fish salted a loniji time. I have keep my Vessels on the home grounds and Grand liaii I have sent no vessels to tiie Bay of St Lawerance this seven yen neather have my Vessels taken Codfish or mackeral inside the precrih British limets DAVID CONWELL Sworn and subscribed to before me, this tenth day of ^lay 1877 (Seal.) THOS. HILLIAKD; No. 94. Notary P//W'V.j This IS to certify. That the underbigned, composing the firm of Cfl tral Wharf Comi)any have been engaged in the fishing business for tl %i AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3163 past Thirteen years, at Wellfleet and that since the "Washington Treaty, ^ called, has been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : >'o, of Vessels employed Thirteen 13 '% of Trips made 4 to Each vessel yearlv 1872 1873 1874 1875 187G yo of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 0 4 0 I 3 >'o of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 450 75 45 1873 1875 187G yo, of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands all caught at Magdeline Average value of Vessels each 85500. Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c . . $2400. Average value of Insurance 711 Ea vessel \verage value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo 835. Vr Month Average value of Commissious, &c $200. to Each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing ami packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. .$15,000 Climber of Vessels lost one vessel at Bay St. Lawrence Vulne of Vessels lost, including outfits $7,000. Viihie of Fish lost $2000. Number of Lives lost One. Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt 75 cts $2.00 Iota! value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl $2.00 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores . . None Total value of Mackerel do None Average market value of American Shore Mackerel IG.OO 12.00 8.00 Average uuirket value of Bay Mackerel 12.00. 8.00. G.OO Average eartiings of the operative fishermen per year $125.00 at our place Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- lilies , Nothing Auionnt paid to British fishermen for herring Nothing Aiuount paid to British fishermen as wages None Amount paid in British ports for repairs None Locatious frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Banks & Georges Locatious frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Cape INIay to ^It. Desert Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing I Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries For tlie past ten years fishing in British waters has been unprofitable. p^e confine our business to American waters entirely now. We could [m procure an american crew lo fish in Bay of Kt Law i once. The ves- ;c'stbat have been sent there have made an entire failure and great '"•s to their owners & fitters. Our business is strictly confined to Mack- hrel fishing. Our Shore Mackerel are of much better quality & bring hrncb larger prices than the bay Mackerel. STEPHEN YOUNG agt Cent Whf Co ^^vorn and subscribed to before me, this 10 dav of May 1877 Seal.) TlioMAS KEMP JSi'otary Public m ml 3164 AWARD OP THE FISUERY COMMISSION. No. 95. This is to certify, Thatthe uuilersigiied, composing the firm of Cminiior- cial Wharf Co. have been engaged in the Ashing business tor the i»ast Twenty Ave years, at Welltieet and that since tlie Washington Trcatv 80 called, has been in etl'ect, our vessels have been employed us follows: No. of Vessels employed Fiftocii No. of Trips made Four Ka. vessel No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence None since 1872. No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St Lawrence Moi'g No. of Jlarrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of siiore not in- cluding Magdalene Islands >yoiie Average value of Vessels each SOrjOO. Ea Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $2(K){). ach vessel Average value of Insurance $70."i ach vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. .>i35. ]:a Average value of Commissions, &c 32(i(j. Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, in. eluding expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore.. fisi.'J,!)!)!) Number of Vp,ssels lost None Value of Vessels lost, including outfits None Value of Fish lost None Number of lives lost None Total value of Fish taken, before curing, si)litting, salting, &c. per cwt 75 cU Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting salting »S:c., per bbl 82.00 i Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores None Total value of Mackerel do None j Average market value of American Shore Mackerel 1(5.00 12.00 8.00 1 Average market value of Bay Mackerel 12. 8. (J ] Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year j'li'j, | Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies None] Amount paid to British fishermen for herring None j Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Nouej Amount paid in British ports for repairs >'oue| Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Bank i^ Georges! Location frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape Hery & Mt. Dessertf Actual value of Fi.sh in the water, before taking Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American tisli| eries^ By reasons of entire change in mode of Catching l\Iackeiel, Viz fron Hook and line to Seine, Tlie Mackl fishing in the Bay of St Lawrence ii uot prosecuted by our fi.shermen the waters of the Gulf are not Calcnlatetf for Seining owing to shallowness and tendency of the lisli to iiciiiieuj the shores, which entirely precludes the possibillity of taking them iij quantities NOAH SWl'TT Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 14th dav of May 1S77 (Seal.) THOS KEMP Notari/ Puhhc AWARD OP THE FISHEUY COMMISSION. No. 9G. 3165 Xhis is to certify, That the uiulersigned, composiiifj the Hrm of Mer- cantile Wliarf Co have been engaged in the (isliing husinoss for the past Seven years, at Welltleet and tliat since tlie Wasliington Treaty, so calbl, iiiis heen in ettect, onr vessels liave been employed as follows : >n, of Vessels employed Twenty (20) >'o. of Trii>s made 4 to Each ve.'scl vearly 1872 1873 1S71 187")* 1870 yo. of Trips to IJay St. Lawrence (► trips 4 0 0 0 No. of Kiirrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence , 800 Bb Xo. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not in«!liuling Magdalene Lslands None caught near Magdalin Islands Average value of Vessels each ^OoOO, Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 82500, Each Average value of Insurance $800, I-^ach vessel Average value of Ca|)tains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo. . 835, Average value of Commissions, &c 8200 Each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and pa(!king, including expenses of CUuks, Proprietors and labor on shore. 8 48,000 Niimber of Vessels lost One Value of Vessels lost, including outfits 80,000 Value of Fish lost None Nomber of Lives lost None Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per cfft 75cts Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ike, per 82.00 Total value of Pisii taken within three miles of British shores. . .Nothing Total value of Mackerel do Nothing , 1 ^ 1 f A . a, ,, , , IG.OO 12.00 8.00 jAveragemarket value of American Shore Mackerel 1 '> 3 1 '^ 3 Average market value of Bay Mackerel ' i'> 00 s'oo o'oo Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 8150. I Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies 8200 since the Treaty I Anioiiiit paid to British fishermen for herring iSothing |Aiiioniit paid to British flshermen as wages Nothing j Aiiiouiit paid in British jjorts for repairs None I Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish AVe send none fishing I Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Cape May to i>It. Desert lActual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing lActiial value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothin •,' jFacts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries We have sent no vessels to Bay of St. Lawrence since 1873, that year j^esent four, they did not pay expenses. We lost money on every vessel. pince that time knowing that the business in Bay of St. Lawrence could Iwprove profltable we have confined our fishing business entirely to the jAnierican waters. The shore Mackerel being of better quality, bring IMter prices v\j we take them with Seines, seldom using hook & Lines. Ji'^:!; '^^Wi ^>*5ifc5a;! At ' 3166 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. We do not in future propose to U8e English waters for our tisliinrr buj^j. ness. We could not ship an Amcriuan crew for such a purpose " JESSE H. FKEKMAN Agut Mercautilo Wliuif Co Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 9th day of May 1877 (Seal.) THOMAS KEMP Aotary ruhUc No. 97. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the Arm of rienrv Nickerson have been engaged in the tishing business for the past Eij,'ht years, at Dennisport and that since the Washington Treaty, ,s(» called has been in effect, our vessels having been employed as follows : ' No. of Vessels employed Six g. No. of Trips made Fiy,, No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence none No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence mw No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not includ- ing Magdalene Islands none none Average value of Vessels each ,«!()o()u Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c §2."»(j Average value of Insurance $G25. to Each vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo.. $4ii. Average value of Commissions, &c $250. to Each vessel 1 Average value of Wharves, Fish-house, &c., for curing and packing:, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore . $12. Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. percwt.l Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, 8j)litting, sailing, &c.,l per bbl $i', Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. .. uoue Total value of Mackerel do iioufl Average market value of American Shore Mackerel. $16.00 $12.00 $8.0 Average market value of Bay Mackerel nonei Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year . . $150. at our placei Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supj plies notbinii Amount paid to British fishermen for herring notbinfl Amount paid to British fishermen as wages uotbinj Amount paid in British ports for repairs nothiuj Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Grand Bank & Georgq Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Mount Dese^ Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking notliii Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken uotliin Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American lis| eries For the past Eight years I confine my business to American wata entirely. i HENRY NICKEKSOXI Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Eleventh day of May 18" (Seal.) SAMUEL S BAKER Notary rublic\ AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3167 No. 98. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the tlrra of Nol SOU& Uarlow have been engaged in the lishing business for the past 25 Tears, at I'lyraouth and tliat since the Washington Treaty, so called, iias beeu in eft'ect, our vessels have been employed as follows : yo, of Vessels employed 4. >o. of Trips made >o, of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence None yo, of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence None .No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each $..3000 Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c 1550 for each Vessel Average value of Insurance -'000 Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $35 to 10 per month Average value of Commis8ion.s, &c. Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iucluding expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore.. .$5500 Xumber of Vessels lost None Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost None Number of Lives lost None Iota! value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &g. per cwt. Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, spliting, salting, &c., per bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores None Total value of Mackerel do None Average market value of American Shore Mackerel $3500 I Average market value of Bay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year I Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies $050 per year I Amount paid to British fishermen for herring 350 Amouut paid to British fishermen as wages in 6 years 20.000 Amouut paid in British ports for repairs 5.50 I Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Banks of Newfoundland [Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Chiefly on our own Coast & Banks lAetnal value of Fish in the water, before taking j Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken [Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American linheries The Vessels from this place are with one or two exceptions wholly en- gaged in Codfishing and their fishing grounds are the Banks of New- jtoMdiand they resort to the Port in the Br Provinces for Bait and some httieles for supplies, a large portion of the crews are Br subjects and in |iiaiiy cases the entire crews are from Nova Scotia. ^oFisb from this port are caught in Br Waters and We do not con- Isjiler there is any so valuable fishing grounds in their waters for Cod as l« Banks of Newfoundland .or any fishing ground for Mackerel as on prown Coast and we never send vessels in the waters there or should I'isli to. WILLIAM H. NELSON. <^ <->»=*H^ 1^. j.-^ . i-V i r^m '-.M %..^H'''''^' ■iii J IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 1.25 1.4 IIIM M 1.6 V] <^ /a VI c^: el rf>l % /. // y >^ Photographic Sciences Corporation L17 :\ \ ^9> .V Pb^ ^Cv4.<'' 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 v;ss.x 5" .-^'^ % Ux 3168 AWARD OF THE FI8HKRY C0MM18HI0N. Sworn anil siibscribtMl to before me, thiH eleventh dnv of Miiy H77 (Seal.) AIlTUiJU I,<»\V Xotaru I'lihlic Iso. 01). This w to certify, That the uiulersiKned, composhit; the firm of ^Iiiiit,.| iS: BhicknuT haw been enfjiif^ed in tlie tlHliiti); biiNiiii>H8 fo*' []u'. past lir teen yearH, at I'lynionth Mass anil that sinee the Washinuton Tivatv, H<» called, luiH been in effect, on rvcHsels have been employed as tullows: No. of VesselH employed I'our ( | ) No of Trips nnide 1 Yearly to ea(!li vessel No. of Trips to Hay St Ijawrenee No. of Harrels of Mackerel from Hay St. liawrenco No. of Harrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iMcliHliiij; Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each ^'2yM Average valueof Onttlts, Salt, r>ait,iS:a $1,200 yearly toeiuli vessel Average value of Insurance . ... ^UM to each vessel Average value of Captanis^ and Crew»' time, viz., wages |)er mo $3~> pr inotitli Average value of Commissions, «S:o 880 pr vessel each year Average value of Wharves, Fish houses, &c for curing and packing, in cludingexpensesof Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore 8 7.(M»o yearly Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ism., i)er(;nt, JJfl.lMI Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, \c.,i)er bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Total value of Mackerel do. Average market value of American Shore Mackerel Average market value of Hay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year iii'*!'!. Average amount paid in Hritish ports for bait, ice, and various supplies 8">(M>, yearly Amount paid to Hritish fishermen for herring Amount paid to Hritish fishermen as wages Amount paid in Hritish i)orts for repairs Locations frecjuented by American vessels for Fish. ..(irand ISank. (ieorgies, Quero, St Peters and all banks bordering on Gulf Stioain Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel From Cape Henry to Newfomidlanil Actual value of Fish in the water, bel'ore taking No value Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Facts as to change in location and mode of conducting American Fish- eries In former years we used to send our vessels to the Hay of St. Lau- rence: but not finding it successful we send now to deep water banks: such as Grand, Georgies & Quero banks. MANTER & BLACKMER ' Hy Peince Man ter Sworn & subscribed, to before me, this sixteenth day of May 1877 (Seal.) ARTHUR LOW Xotary rulUc ■e, not incUuliiig L American Fisli- AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMFSSION. No. 100. .'5109 This is to certify, Tlii\t tlip mHlorsi;;iioltl two dollars Ttital value of Fish taken within three miles of 15ritish shores Nothing, none taken Total value of Maekeiel do '• <' Avi'iajje market value of American Shore Mackerel Eight dollars per Barrel Avcrajic market value of Ray Mackerel Avi'iajic eariiiiigs of the operative lishermen per year One hundred & fifty dollars. Aveia/e amount paid in British port.s for bait, ice, and various sup- jilie.s Nothing Amount paid to British tishernjen for herring '' Ainoiiiit paid to British tishermen as wages " Aitiouiit paid in British ports for repairs " Locations frequented by American ves.sels for Fi.sh Locatioii.s frequented by American vessel for IMackerel Capes Delaware to Mount Desert. Actual value offish in the water, before taking Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- cries For tlie last seven or Eight years our Mackerel fishermen have been limited to the catch ott" the American Coast, owing to the Bay of St I-awreuce fishery being so very uncertain, as to offer no encouragement !«go there — My vessels have not been there during that period — ABKAUAM U TOWER i^worii and subscribed to before me, this Eighth day of May 1877 J Q A LOTH KOI' Justice of the Peace 199 p 'U'^'rfr-*-*^..; l':"f1 "^^i- ^i^-M' •if «"%, .-««■?' 3170 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 101. This is to certify, That tlie tiiult rsi^iicd, coiii))OHiiiK the linn ui .Inlm Bates has lieen eiipiK*'(l in tishiiig biisiiiO'iH tor the past 'l'iiiii\iiM. years, at Cohasset Mass and that since the Washington Treaty, su culled, has been in ell'e Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, «&c Three thousand tltdhus Average value of Insuranee Three hundred dollars yearly for each vessel Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per nio. Thirty dolIar> Average value of Commissions, &c $li(M> pr vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packiii;', including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. . nTimiii. Number of Vessels lost niii> A'alue of Vessels lost, including outfits ^."((kid Value of Fsh lost Number of Lives lost iioiir Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, »S:('. per cwt, Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, \('., pci bbl two dollars pi Ijaritl Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores.. n(»tliiii;' Total value of Mackerel do no receiiits Average market value of Americjan Shore jMackerel eight dollars i>r limvl Average market value of Bay Mackerel Average earnings of the operative lishermen per j-ear one hundred & fifty dollar Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies notbiiiy Amount paid to ]»ritish lishermen for herring notliiii;' Amount paid to liritish lishermen as wages nutliiii; Amount paid in British ports for repairs '• Locations freijuented by American vessels for Fish Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape llenloi)eu to Mount Desert Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking very unceitaiii Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken " Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Anicrioaii lisli- eries For the last sev^en years mtickerel have been so scarce and uncer- tain in the Bay of Saint Lawrence I have been obliged to abauiluii the lishery in those waters JOHN J]ATES Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Seventh day of ]\ray ISll J. Q. A. LOTHUOl' Justice of the Peace AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION 3171 10 t'lini of .liiliii past 'Ihirt.Mivc jtoii Tn-aty, so id UH IoHdws; 8«'veii yi'iirly in all IJ , IKtllC noiif f shoi'o, not iu- tliousmid (lolliii- thoUHaiiti tlollais y for cadi vessel es per iih». Thirty (lolliii> . ,.$liiii' >tr)(i(iii noiif tiiiK, ^^'- 1"''' '^"^• r, Hultinn, >!^<'m P'T ) dollars pi 15arul h shores.. nut liiii;i , no rt'ccipls t dollars pr biiiitl V red & lii'ty tloHi"'^ and various M\[y notbiii;: uiitliiii;: notliiii;; rel u to Mount Di'>*wl , . vory unaTtaiii tt •' ug American flsli- scarce ami iincer- l>liged to abauduu JOHN 15ATES day of jM5\v ^^'>' LOTHUOr \tstioe of the Peace No. 102. This is to certify, That the nndorsi^iicd, composing the llrm of Bilker i!v: ICIlis have been engaged in the llsliing business f«>r tlie paHt Twenty l''ive years, at Dennisport, Mass — and that since the Washing- ton Treaty, so calltil, lias been in ett'ect, our vessels have been employed iig I'ollows : No. of Vessels employed Ten >o. of Trips nnido 8i.\ trij>s each yearly total 00 trips No. of trips to JJay St. Lawrence none No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Hay St. Lawrence none No of ISarrels of ALickerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Mii(; ear two Hundred ^: Fifty Averaj^e amount i)aid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies Aiiioimt paid to British llshermen for herring Aiuiiinit paid to British lishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports tor repairs Locations Irequented by American vessels for Fish Locations Irequented by American vessels for Mackerel Nothing East of Mt Desert — Actual value of Fish in the water before taking nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water before taken Fucts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries About li). years ago we sent our. last vessels to the Gulf of St Law- rence for tish the business being unprofitable, and vessels not Paying Mlienses. since which time we have found it much to our advantage to foil on our own shores — it is impossible to get a native crew to go to the Gulf of St Lawrence fishing — one of our last trips there absent about U weeks only took twenty Bbls of fish valued less than two hundred Dollars seventeen men being employed — Seining has taken place of ^ •* >i4 , 'T^.\ » ••f: 1\ i t;, 3172 AWARD OP THE FIMIIERY COMMISSION. Tlnnd lino flHliiii^ on our own constH nnd wo And timt it in grentlv to our advantuKt^ to IIhIi nt>ai'«'r liii in ISiltiHii watiM.s ami hhki, qniukor HtlfH and much more protitalilu buHlnt-Ns. ISAKKIt i^c \WAAs Sworn and Mubscrihcd to bflor*' nic, tills Hist dav ol" May 1S77 («ua!) SAMLKLS. l5Alvi:i; Sutury I'lihllv No. iu;{. Tins is to crrtil'v, Tliat tin* nndersijrnrtl, conipoHiiifj tin' linn (»t Levi Kldrid(;r liavi> been cn^afted in tin* ll.sliin^' l)nsin<'ss for tlie past Twcntv yearH, at Hontli (Jlnitliani and tluit since tiiu WaNhin^ton Tn-atv, mi called, has been in ellect, our vessttls have bueu employed as follows: No. of N'essels employed I'lijjlit .*S No. of Ti i|>s made .'{ to Kacli vcsmI lH7li 1S7;{ 1871 lS7ri isj; No. of Trips to Hay St. Lawrence 0 0 0 (t ii No. of IJarrels oi' Mackerel from Hay St. liawrenee mw No. of liarrels of Mackerel cauj^dit within 3 miles of shore, not ineludiii;' Magdalene Islands iioiic A veratic valne of Vessels each !4.")(i(iii, Average valne of Outlits, Salt, Bait, &c HJiiHi, Average value of Insurance )iG.S each vt'.ssd Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages pc^r mo $;{5 I'r Month Average valne of Comndssions, iSro $ 1 75 to each vessel Average value of Wharves, I'ishhouMes, iS:c., for curing and piickin:', including c.\i)enHes of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. .*7."ii"i, Number of Vessels lost one vessel Value of Vessels lost, including outfits ff{\:m. Value of Fish lost 'jsiiii Number of Lives lost. ... Tlmr Total valne of Fish taken, before curing, 8i»litting, salting, ^c, \m- cwt, (.»(• Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, vvc, per bbl ....... $1(111 Total value of Kish taken within three miles of British shores — iima' Total value of Mackerel «lo imhk! Average market value of Ameriiitin'ly onr liiisiiifHH iHCiiiilliied strictly to Hliori* llsliiii}; uNit \Myn hh \vu Uiiuk iiitich iH'ttor tliuii Uay ILsliiii); \vuiil of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo forty «b)llars per Month Avcnvge value of Commissions, »Jtc Two liuiulred and Twenty five Average value of Wharves, Fish-hnuses, kc, lor curing and packing, iiidiuling expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Six Thousand dollars Nimiltcr of Vessels h)st Two Viiliit) of Vessels lost, including outliis ten thousand dollars Valiie of Fish lost tilteen hiuidred " Niiiiibor of lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ^c, ]wv cwt ...one dollar Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, si>littiug, salting, Os:c.. p»!r lilil two ilollars Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores none Toti'l value of Mackerel do none Average nuirket value of American Shore Mackerel •'!ntiri>ly uIiiiikIoihmI by tliom* iMi;;i)(;i>i| in tlio ll.shin^r busini'ss lino ami ull coiiIIik^ tlicinsfhcH to tlii' mIkhc fish in^ iS: (ioorfftm itiinU lor mackerel uh tlio ^rciiti'i' outlay uihI Ion;; tiim IIH4>(I on tlio tripH to tlio hay in mo inii(;h that it 1*4 iinpoMsihlf nirrv on tlitit llsliin^und IVoiii tlio pn>N(Mit appcariMMtiMit' tliiiiixs our Nlmif t'i,sliiti„' will li«' ill IIm; liantl of Itiitisli liaiMlHas tlicirclKsipcr vchmcIn, ami rliiM|Mr liiro of ci'inv's, aii«i oiitlltH (Mial)ki tlieia to pia".e titu lUli in our iii,iik<-is at a ral(^ to us disaHti'i-oiis 1). V. WKKKKS »S\voni and Hub«crilM'd to before iiii', thin twclvtii day of ^lav 1S77 (Slid.) HAMIJKL S IIAKKII Sutarif I'HhIir No. 1(13. Tliig 1(4 cntify, That tliu iinderNif^ncd, cotiipoHiiif; t\w nnn of ('altli Sinull liavo Ikhmi cti^ragrd in tliu tisliin;; biiHincss for tliu pant rvvtnty Movcn y(>arH, at Hoiitli llarwic^li MaHH and that since the \Vasliiii|rtiiii Treaty, bo culled, has been in clfect, our vessels have been eiiipldyuil as follows : No. of Vessels employed Fivi jNO.ot inpsmauo ^,,^, BanksHor 10 trips Shore mackciHliiu' No. of Trips to liay St. Tiawrence hoik No. of Barrels of Maiikerel from Bay St. Lawrence iioiif No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iiicliidiii;; Magdalene Islands iioiii; Average value of Vessels each Five Thousand dolliirs Average value of Outllts, Salt, Bait, &c 25(H) to each vessel ycailv Average value of Insurance jjiijiiii Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per ino. Capt 70 Crews $ 10 pnch Average value of Commissions, &c $200 each vessel Averajre value of Wharves, Fish-houses, «S:c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore $12000 Twelve Tliousaiids Number of Vessels lost none Value of Vessels lost, including outfits .noiip Value of Fish lost $ KM") Number of Lives lost one Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, titc. percwt. one dollar Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iS:c., pir bbl $:;.<•<) Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British sliores none Total value of Mackerel do uoue Average market value of American Shore Mackerel no 1 $1G n- 2 $12 no 3 $7,50 cts Average market value of Bay Mackerel none caught Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year '?-|"" Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies years 1873 & 1874 $500 each year nothing since Amount paid to British fishermen for herring year 187.'? ^W^ Amount paid to British fishermen as wages.... Average $500 yearly- N. AWARD OF TIIK FIHHEUY COMMlssfON. 3175 \i Aiiift'icati iU\\ y tlioHc )'lii.';i2<'(l to tilt' sliotf 'i->li y ami ion;; tiiin' possible nirrv on our Hliurc HhIiiii;; ,h«'Ih, ami tluMiHT h ill oui iii.iiki-lH K. WKMKKS r of Mav 1*^77 S llAKKIl Notarii I'Hhlir lie nnn of CiiH. tlie |>ast Twi'iity ' tlui WaHliiii(;tiiii •0 iK'eU «'iiiiiltnu(l Fivr to vnvh v»'HS('l ti> Hiorii iiiackcrclliiu' lUUlf IIOIH' lOre, not inciiKliii;; noiii' Thousand dolliiiH each vessel ycaily .'jijdii jfes per ino. 70 Crews $10 each $200 each vessel ing and packing, on shore Twelve Thousands none .nimp "/_.'. $40(11) one ting, iS:c. per cwt. one dollar g, salting, i^c.,Fr °\ .....$i'JKi 1 shores "<•"« uoue 112 no3.*7,50('ts none caught p .iJOO id various supplies year nothiug since ..year 1873 .*U«K) rage §500 yearly- Anioiiiit paid in llriiiHh portH for repairn no lAK'ittioiiM tVequcntcd by AiiHTicaii xeHselM for T'lsh Wcstctn liatik ltaii)|ii(>i-(>ii Muiik (inind Hank L'M'ationM t'rnpiently by Atiieriean vessels lot- Markeiel I'roiii ("iipe Henry to Ml Deseif Mank Actual value of l-'ish in the watt'r, before taking nottiiiig Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken nothing I'.icts as to changes in hxMtion and mode of condinUiiig Aim>rie.in lish- crieH Have sent no vessels to the Huy of Ht FiauretH'e for the last t'iglit vcars e\(>eptiiig one vessid to Mooik; Kay Utr a load of Herrings in IH7.'l It will not pay to soinl vessels to the May cd' St Laurence for mackerel the catch is HO uncertain and expence so huge It is a Had placo to ^•iiic llsii on account of shallow water and foul Kottoin The < 'od tishery is an entirely Itaiik llshery owing no alh'gin(!e to any govenment Tiie UestiTii Hank Quereaw anddrand Hank being from lOtMuiles to ino miles from any land CALKIl SMALL Sworn ami subscribed to before me, tliis Twelvth day of May 18V7 (Seal.) SAMUKL. S. JlAKIMt Notary Viiblio No. 100. This is to certify, Tlnit the undersigned, composing the (Irm of V^al- cntiiio Doane have been engaged in the lishing business for the past Thirty Kight years, at Uarwicli I'ort an tlollar Each Average value. of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c.. $3000 To Each Vessal Yearly Average value of Insurance $225 Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo Captu $08 Crews 30 Each Average value of Commissions, &c $ 120 Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iucluding expenses of Clerks, Troprietors and labor on shore $11000 Eleven Thousand Nuniher of Vessels lost - Four Value of Vessels lost, including outfits $1800 Each— Total $10,200 Value of Fish lost $.'5,000 Number of Lives lost • . . Eleven — Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ifc^. per cwt $1,50 Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &o. per bbl 1,80 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores none Total value of Mackerel do none Average market value of American Shore Mackerel No 1. 17— No 10 No 3. 0.25 3176 AWAKD OF THE FIHllbUY COMMIHHlON. AvtTUKi' miirkot viiliu^ of Buy Muckorol Notii« ranglit Avorunf niniinyM of tlin opvrutivo llsliurincii por y«»ur aimi AvcriiKi' uiiioiiiit puiil ill HritiHli porU for biiit, ice, iiinl vaiioiii nii|i ilicH. plici . Iiniii Aiiioiiiit puiil to Itiitiitli llHlHtriii(*ii for licrriiii; iiotliin Anioiiiit paiti to Itrii inIi llxliornu'ii uh wa);eM iioix Aiiioiiiit paid ill ItritiNJi portn for repairs iiotiiin^ Local ioiiH friMpii'iitrd l>y AiiK'ricuii vi'hhoIm for Kisli From l!apu Cliarlos to Mt IIimt' Locations fi«M|ii«>iitnl by American vos- HC'ls for Ma»;lit'it'l...* »« <» " " »» Actual vain*' of FiHli in tlio water, lieforo talvint; iiotliin^' Aetna! value of Maeiterel in tlio water, before tal\en *• I'^actN aH to cliani^e in location and mode uf conducting Ainericiin lisb cries have Sent no vcsselH To Fish In British Waters for tlio liiist liftt'on Years our Fisliing since IHiL' has wholly b(>eii done In Ainerit.'aii ^Vat(•r^ as no American crews Would ({o To Fish In llayst Lauraiice or any ItritiHli Waters those that have occasionally Tried made a failiiranil BorioiiM losses to owner «S: outiltters «,S; crews — ooiiHequently our Fisliin;' is wholly carried on In American WatetH. VALENTINK. DOANK Sworn and subHcribed to before me this Ninth day of May 1S77 (Heal.) SAMIJKL. S. HAKFK' yotury I'lihik No. 107. This is to certify, That the undersi;;ned, coiiiposliiK the lirni of T. 11 B.iker liav«i been en;,'a;,'eil in tlie llsliiii Aveiii;^e value of Outllts, Salt, Bait, «S:c Twenty live Hundred Average value of Insurance. Two do (illy " Average value of Captains' and dews' time, viz., wages per im> Thirty dollars per iii" Average value of Commissions, ^:c. . . .Two Hundred Twenty live dollais Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, Hv.., for curing and pacUiii;'. including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors ami labor on shore Ten thousiuid doiliii"' Number of Vessels lost Nonf Value of Vessels lost, including outfits iioiic Value of Fish lost 'In Number of Lives lost Two Total vjilno of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &.i'. per cwt. Total value of Mackerel takeu, before curing, splitting, salting, «S:c., iht bbl Three dollars Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Total value of Mackerel do noe AWARU OF TIIK FI8IIKRY COMMIMMION. 3177 1m L'm .') Avt>ra;;o iiiutkot vulii(> «>t' Aiikm'Jimii Sliont MacktM-i^l II x !* x 7 AvciiiK'i' iiiiii'kt't vitliic of iliiy Ma«-k(M'(«l Avt-raK*' ciU'iiiiiKH of tlio uptiiativc ilMluMiiioii per yi>at' Two lliirKlicd Twenty (ivt^ tlolliirN AviiiiKc uiiiutiiit paid in llrltisli portH for liait, iuo, uiiil varioiiM Nup< l>li»'« iiotliiii^; AiiKMiiit paid to ItritiMli tlsluMincii for horiiii}; " Aiiioiiiit paid to liritisli tlHliiu'iiuMi as \vai;cH '^ Aiiioiiiit paid ill HritiNii pNi>rt Actual vabie of Ki«li iti tlio water, biiforo takiiij,' luMliing Actual valiu» of Mai'kfn^l in tim \vatc«r, beforo taken *» r.utM as to ulianjj^es in location and mode of eotidnutin); American tlsh> I'lie.s Ndf considering tlsliing in liritisli waters renjunerative Have sent no u'sst'lls to Hay n( At Liiwrenco since have been in business T. 15. JJAKKl; Sworn and subscribed to belbre ine, this LMsf dav of Mav 1H77 (Seal.) BA.Mrkl.. H. I? A K Kit Xotdri/ I'lihlir No 108. II .p: This is to certify, That, the nndersigiieil, roniposiuj; the llrm »»f V. !)()itii<>.lr arrels of Mackerel from liay St. FiawrencM' None N(i. of llarrels of Mackerel caught within ."{ miles of shore, not including Ma^ldalemi Islands None Average! value of Vessels each Six thousand dollars Average value of Outlits, Salt, Bait, iS:c each season, in OK TIIK I'lHllRRY COMMIMSION Avcrngt' market vuIih' of Aiin'iU'an Slion' Miirki'n'I Eiullt (InlliirH |MT l!M Av<>rii({(> riiiirkft value of ita.v Mackori'l Notii* iiTrivi.! AviM'UK*^ «uii'iiiii^M of the (ipttrativt* lls|ifriii«*ii [ht your ()ii«^ IiiiihIi'«-d by Atiicricaii vi'mscIn lor KiNli (Iraiid »V Wi'Ntcrii li.ink. LoontlotiN rr(>(|ii«'iit(>d by Atiicricati vohm(^Im for Mackerel . . Not aei|iiiiititnl Actual value of I'MhIi in the water, before taking Nntlmi;' Aetiiul vidiie of Maekt^rel in the water, before taken Notliin,' Fnets aH tu chaiifjeH in lucutiun and inudi; uf uondiictint; Amumu.ih nHluM'ieH. Itut very little eliango In location on Ainorlean Shores. A ;,'riiiiil rlianf^e made in mode of taking Ma(;kerel, bein^': from hook iS: line, to. pufHc Heinin^, largely iiKTcaNin^ expense The scarcity and poor i|Uiility of Macker«'l in liritisli waters, has induced parties llshinK' IIktp, t» transfer tlioir lieut to our own shore lishin^. And it is not unrDiinn i!i to Hec KiikUsIi vessels on this coast en};a^iMl in tlshin^ witli nioilcni appliances, bein^ found more protltable than their own Coast tlslnii; and we have sohl several cargo's of cured llsh the i>ast two yeurs to ;; > to Halifax N. h. V. DOANK .lu \ CO. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this M day of May IS77. (Seal ) A. F. IIOVVAKI* yuUiry I'tihlh-. No. 109. This is to (certify, That the undersigned, composinjj the linn ot <' Morris Tredick liave been enga{;ed in the llshing business for the |)a>t five years, at Portsmouth N II and that since the WaHhint,'ton Tifuty, so called, has been in ellect, our vessels have been employed ay t'iillii\\'<: No. of Vessels employed rittcin No. of Trips made Sixty 187'» W> No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence I 1 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. liawrenccnone, but (Kd tl>li No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not inclml ing Magdaleiio Islands mme Average value of Vessels each Three thousand dollars Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c Twelve hundred dollHri Average value of Insurance !'' u Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per ino. Thirty hve dollars Average value of Commissions, &c one hundred and fifty dollars Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packini:. incladiug expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Twenty thousand dollars Namber of Vessels lost - Value of Vessels lost, including outfits.... ....Seven thousand dollars Value of Fish lost AWAKI) OF TIIK KIHIMIIY COMMIMHIOV. a 179 . . NolM' It'lflVti! ilttllM per MM*., Hint VlUioMH v\\. lliiMilr*-)! liiilliii" Ntitliiii; ilolliirx iintiualK O tllllll.Hllllil ittllN »c \V('st«'iii l'.,iiik- ..Not iu'«|iiuiiitt>l Nittliiii.' Nntlilii; luctinu AiiH'iit.iii rtlioroB. A urn'i'l III liDiiU , i». y iiiitl i»t«»n|ii;ili'' ' flHllillK tlllTf. \" : JH not mifoiiiiipi iliitit; with iiiMilcn »)\vn Ctmst li!>liiii: ist two yiMii'H to -i'* ANE .III i*^ <<> Mm- I«". IIONVAKI* iiR tlM^ llriii <•' ' iHinesH tor tlit'P^' ruMliiiiKton Tii'iitv, nplt»yeil as li»ll""- iMl'twn Sixty 18") IH.'. 1 1 .noms but Cotl fhb f shore, not iiicliul' liiiin; *co thousnntl lli»rs live hiindriMl ilolluM ■ o| ^afjes i>«r ni". Thirty five tloUarJ red and tlfty «loll«r«| iuring and packnii;'' bor on shore uty tbousand doliarsi eiV thousand dolla"! N'linihi'i of liivi'H hiMt TDtal viiUiu ol' KImIi tiikon, U^loruciirini;, Mplittiti){, italtiiit;, Sici. por owr, 7.V Ti>tiil vnl'io of Miitkori'I tukni, bisloio oiiriiiK, HpliJUiij;, HiiltiiiK, \»'., prr lilil two tlollai'H. r.ttiil valiio of KiNh tiikiMi within tliruo iiiiloH of Kiitisli Mllort^'4 iioiio i'litiil valine of Marki'i'fl ilo iioiii> Avcra^i' iiiark<*t vahu< *»f Ainrridaii Shoru Mackurol i!*l((. ij>l'_*. iji.S, AvcraKi* iiiarki't viiliir of Itny Ma«-kct'«>l $li;, ims. iti<|. AviM'U);o uiiriiiiiifM of tlio ttporativo liHliiMiiM'ii p«>r yiMir Two liiiihtri'd ^: tlfty tloliaiM Av(>la^l> uiiioiiiit paid in Kriti.sh ports for bait, Wt\ and vanoiiH NiipplwH Mix liniidrcd dollarN ;h early Amount paid to ililtisli llNlioniicii for] iM'iritiK 'riii'iM> thoiiNand dolluts yraily Aiiioiiiit paid to Itiiti.sli llMlM>rnii'n an Amount paid in I{riti.sli port.s for n> I paiiN \ [.iN-atioiiNfrcipuMittMl Ity AiiM'rican vo.s.h«>In for I''iMli La llavo, (iraiid «S: WcKtorn Hunk i^icatioiiH friMpuMitt'd l»y Ain«ri(!an vhsmcIh for Mat-knt'l Capo May to IJay St. I,awn'iicn Actual valiKi of I''iNh in tho water, b«>for» taking nothing; Actual value of Maekerel in tlie water, l)etore taken notliiiiK Faints aH to chatiKen in location and mode of conduutinK Anierieau tislu'i'icH Within last tliree years have not haN loHt Totiil Milium of KInIi lulioii, before (ttiiiiiKt i^pHttiii);, Niilliii)r, i\:r,, |„, cwt T'l (ts Total viiliio of Miu;kiir(>l takni, lutfon^ ciiriii^, Hplittiii);, Niiltiii;;, ^c, pHp bbl •JtKiti Total valiKMtf Kisli takoii within tlirtH; iiiih^H of Miitisli slioics — ihhii' Total valdc of IMatrkrrcl ra^'o anioiiiit paid in Ibitinli ports lor bait, ic.o, and various , sup. pli<'M llOllr Ainount paid to Mritisli llslirrnuMi for lii>ri'in^ none Ainotiiit paid to Ibitisli IIsIhm'iiioii as wa^os Ainoutit paid in lliitisli ports for repairs Locations frcipiciittMl by Aiiu'riiiau vesst^ls for Tisli (iratid (S:; (Scorj^cs liaiik liocations frt'quontod by Amoricaii vesst'ls for ISIackorol ('apo May to Ml. Desert Actual valiio of Fish in tlio water, before taking notliiii;' Actual value t»f Mackerel in the water before taken notliiii;' location and mode of condnctini; American li.'sli. langei ones We have sent no lisherinen to the Dominion Waters for the |)ast fivp years for the followinj,' reasons namely: the lish have been of poor k ss — Sworn and subscribed to before me, this second day of June 1S7' (Seal.) Xo. Ill, J. l\ STMTSON 2\<>l (()'!/ I'nhlk This is to Cert il^v, That the undersljjned (>eo. Tolman have been en jjaged in the tishinf«' business, for tlie past twelve years, at Deer Islo, .Maine, and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in etVect, our vessels have been employed as follows: viz — since ISOO No. of Vessels emploved <•<• <»' ^'^ '''^ ^♦^ '^^J'^J'^ '' '^''' Iw' 16 VI 10 8 4 4 4 ."» J : ti(5 07 (18 ()i) 70 71 72 7.'} 71 T.l it* L'O 18 20 18 IG 8 8 4 12 Ki 1^ Xo. of Trips made, Xo. of Trips to Ray St. Lawrence., ()(> (57 (i8 60 70 71 72 7;{ 71 7.1 j'i "iG 17 lb l\S y 8~G 3 1 0 U Xo. of Barrels of IMackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 288(H) Xo. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including • the Magdalene Islands Noue Average value of Vessels each $5000. i AWARD OF THK FIHIIKKY COMMIHHION. 3181 Avt'iHK'"' viiIiHM»f' Oul fits, Hull, I^iit, i's:*! L'700 cik!)! yrurly AvcniK"' valiHi ui' liiHiiraiH'o |(>"„ vrssrl .''c ()Htlltn Avi'iiiK'' vuliMi of rapliiiiiM' iind ('nnvn' tiiin', viz., waj{«'8 imt mo.. .i!«.'{H. Av('riij;<' valim ol' <'oiiiinissioiiN, Kv iJI.'iO, Av»MiiK»' valiM) of Wai'v««M, I''i.sli Ih»iis«'h, ^r., for riiriiif,' aiul piu-kiii^;, iiicliKliii^r r\|>«>tiH(>N of (Klerks, rropiictois and lalior on slitin; 7r Nrssels lost, incliidinj,' »)UtllfH i!aid in Hritish ports for hait, ice, and various HUpplies AiiHiiiiit paid to Hritish fishermen for herriufj i?(UH)(>. one year AiiiDunt paid to Hritish fishermen as wa^'cs . . !!t'>00().0(» from IcSfJtJ to is7'J Aiiutuiit |iainted by American vessels for Fish ( I rand. Western. Im Have, (reorj^es H»aiiks I-ocations freh- sils to I'.ay of St. Lawrence. J said in IHT.'J J would never s(!nd another vi'ssel to the Jiay for fish, if I wished too I could not g«^t a cn-w to go tliiic we trietl the Hay fishing to long for our own interest, but every spiiii}; wi) went in again, on the promises made the fall before — Mai;k- crel are so phuity on this shore, and so easily taken, that the Hay .Mack- erel f( r the last few years have not been worth going there for — CKO. TOI.MAN Sworn and subscribed to before me, this first day of June 1877 State op Maine County oi.- Uancock C. A. SrOFFOKI) (Seal.) rnhlic yofnrif 2so. 112. Tills is to certify, that the undersigned, composing the tirm of E G l^illaril I'ortlaiul, Maine have been engaged in the fishing business for .*fi 8182 AWARD OF TUE F1.SHEUY C'UMMI88ION. tlio past Twenty 0110(21) ycftrs, at Portland. Mo. and that Hiiuc the WuHliinifton Treaty, ho called, has buun in ull'ect, our vusscl.s luivc Uwm employed an follows : No. of Vessels etnployed six No. of Trips made Average thn't! trips No. of Trijis to Jtay Ht. Lawrence om. No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Ijawrentie l.tO Hi)|;^ No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not incliiiljng Magilalene Islands None Average value of Vessels each Forty five hundred 1 )()llars Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c One thousand Dollars Average value of Jnsiiranco Nino per Cent Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages i)er mo. Thirty Dollars per Month per Man Average value of Commissions, »S:c Three hundred llfty Dollars Average va'ue of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for (Miring and packiu};, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Number of Vessels lost Twd Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Ten thousand Doilnis Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost None Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, — for tlireos Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, aiul various supplies Five hundred Dollars Amount paid to British flshermeu for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid in British ports for rei)airs Locations frequented by xlmoricau vessels for Fish Western & Grand Banks Locations frequented by Anunicau vessels for Mackerel Bay St Lawrence & Madeline Island Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Nothing Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fisli- eries. Have abandoned the idea of sending My Vessels any longer to the Bay of St. Lawrence, and shall never send another Vessel to the Bay, as the whole business has been a failure as far as My Vessels are oon cerned. The Mackeral being very scarce there, and very hard to dis pose of them when got, being so poor in quality. E G WILLARD State of Maine ) Cumberland Co. ss. i Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 2l8t day of May 1877. (Seal.) LEWIS B. SMITH Notary Public. AWARD OP THE FI8HEBY COMMISSION. 31 S3 that siiict' the ssels hiivi! bi'cii Six .»ri»go thn'»! lrii»s 0111' l.'.u ]\\)U (re, not iiu;lii(liii|,' None huiulrod Dollars Lhousaud Uolliirs . . Nino IM'V Cent iis per mo. r Month per Miin dreil (Ifty Holliiis ing ami packini,', on shore T\v(. thousand Dollais >'oiie ItinK, &c., per cwt ty cts per luiiulivtl 1^, suiting, iS:*'., l^ itisli shores.. None Noni' 3 .voes $.")— for threes ,1(1 various supiilics vo hundrod Dollars krn & Grand Banks ^erel , , , , & MadoUno Island Nothing Nothing Itiug Am«ricau flsli- 8 any longer to tk 4 Vessel to the haj, lly Vessels are cou- ld very hard to m E G WILLARD I of May 1877. '- B. SMITH Notary PM^- ig, c^i;. •J?, No. 113. This is to <'«'rtify, Tliat the undersigiuMl, coiii|)(».siiig the hrni of .Jordan \ Itlalvc liavc bciiii ongagiMl in the lisliing luisiuess for the past •>0 years, lit Portland Maine and that sinee the Washington Treaty, so caUed, liii.s been in elVect, our vessels have been einph)yed as folh)Ws: >■(). of Vi'ssels employed 40 No, of Trijts made 8 1H72 1S7;5 1S71 1S7."» 1870 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 0 0 1 0 0 \o. of 1 barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. liawrenco J.'$."i >o. of Barrels of Mackerel caught witliiu 3 miles of shore, not inchuling .Maj,'dalene Islands . . , of Magtlelenes \verage value of N'esscls viwh .* KtOO Average value of Out fits. Salt, Bait, & $ l.'»UU Avcnige value of Insurance I) I'er ct Avt'iiige value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per iiu) ^'M> Average value of Commissions, ^:c )!<100 each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, ike, for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, Troprietors and labor on shore >!<-'.'), 000 Number of Vessels lost Value of Vessels lost, including outlits Viiliie of Fish lost Number of Iii\es lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, saltiu} percwt. Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, si)1itting, saltin< vNc, per bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. Total value of ^lackerel «lo Average market value of American Shore Mackerel 810 ii Average earnings of the oi)erative lishermen i)er year !?1*L'.^I Averaj'c amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sui>- plies 8 100 yearly Anioiint i)aiaid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish . Jellrys Locations freipjcnted by American vessels for 3lackerel on American Shores Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Xotliing Actual value of INIackerel in the water before taken Nothing Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American lisli- erie.s We have formerly had vessels engaged in the Bay of St Laurence Ssberies for Mackerel but finding it improfltable the vessels not paying tlieir bills we have entirely withdrawn our Vessels from the Bay tish- triesaiid conline them to our own shores for Mackerel and the Oceau Banks for tish. The British shore fisheries are worthless to us. LFVI C. BLAKE State of Maine, > Cumberland Co. ss f Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 29 day of May 1877 (Seal.) LEWIS B. SMITH JSotary Public. None ff^m ,;,,**■-*! '>■ jmM i^'''- ■-'* im ''■>'"'"' ^4 *iS :'>^ Wft' -< y^\-\ ■ '^.<.. t- -t--^ wi i :^..*f '^" ...•■■,-■( '^W, 'iiSm4 ' ?i»B*!?; 3184 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 114. This is to oortify, Tlint the un(1ersifi;iie(1, compoHiiif; the flnn of Lowis Whittvii iS^ Co liave Umm enpi^cd in tliu tisliin^ biisiiieNS for tlic piisi years, at I'ortlaiul Maine and that since the Washinuton Tnaty. so calhnl, has been in etl'eet, our vessels have been employed as loilows : No. of Vessels employed 1H7I \ |H7-i ^ IHTU 1871 IH7r> l«7r. ) s||„ii „.,„| J7 in Utty (HU\ Uny ( H in Uny 7 in Uivy )! In Hny :t in May f lluv tlii< 5oU8liuro J M un HJiure J 4 uu Hlioro lloiiMliore ir>unNii(>r<> Monsliun^j ynir ]>;; No. of Trips made Cannot say No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence No. of liarrels of IVIackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 ISTfi, 3189BI)l8. 1015 Bbls. 1474 Bbls. 1552 Bbls. 474 Bbl. ;{(»ll!l.|., No. of Barrels of Mackerel canyht within 3 miles of shore, not iiicliid ing Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each Five thonsaiid (lollais Average value of OutHts, Salt, Bait, «S:c..Six hundred dollars each tiiii Average value of Insurance, About two hundred dollars for the fishing soasun Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages j)er mo., Thirty-live dolliiis Average value of Commissions, &c Two hundred lifty dollars Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packiiiji, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors an(11A $17:}— $12 $23.^— 'i'13 1874 1875 lS7 TIkmisiuiI Value of KiHli lost None Niunltcrof Iiiv«'s lost On,. Total valuu ot Fish taken, before curing, Hplitting, salting, i^n-., |i,.r cwt One (lolhii Total value of Mackerel taken before curing, splitting, salting, «\:c., pir bbl T\\(Mlollah Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores — ikhm Total value of Mackerel do imin Average nuuket value of American Shore Mackerel l(!i«< li'— ^ Average market value of Jiay Mackerel I'J— s_i; Average earnings of the ojierative fishermen per year iTin Average amount paid in liritish ports for bait, ice, and various siiji plies Noiit Amount paid to liritish fishermen for herring Ono Thousand dollars Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Unknown Amount paid to liritish jwrts for repairs .Notiiiii;; Locations frecjueuted by American vessels for Fish Western Bank Grand (leor|,'os Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel American Shore Bay St Lawrence I Actual value of Fish in the water before taking Notliiii;' | Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken . ., " Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American tisli eries My Vessels are Mostly Employed in MacV jrel Fisheries 1 send ik Vessel in English Waters for the reason that the fish are so iiifeiiortnl American Mackerel that Vessels cannot pay their outfit Bills tocatcli them I\[y Vessels .are Mostly engaged in seineing and netting Mack erel in American Waters I cannot find any one who is willing tolital Mackerel Catcher for Bay of St Lawrence Vessels that have been tbeirl have fell in debt largely I paid an assessment of 232$ on .,"2 0* '^ '^'^'''f tbis Year on two Years fishing in English Waters 1874 and 1875 CHAS A DYEi; State of Maine > Cumberland Co. s. s. J Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 25tb day of May 1877 (Seal.) LEWIS B. SMITH Notary Public. No. lie. This is to certify, That the undersigned W. S. Jordan & Co. hav(j been engaged in the fishing business, for the past thirty three years/ at Portland Me, and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, liaj been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed Twelve, averaging eight men eaca No. of Trips made Four trips each yearli No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 1 Average two each year, one only in l^j * This Sch was iu the employ of C & H Trefetheu of Portland )Uarii oin'li yfitrU iif; Riul i)iu-kiii;', (III hIioi*', Thirty thousiunl On,. ..Five 'rimiisiiiiil Nolle "... Oil.' wilting, iS:<'., im Out' (Idlliii I, BaltinK, ,h shori's — iioiii' . nolle ICni" l'J-> r_'— s-ii 'r'.'.'.' '■" , iiiul Viuious sii]! _ Nolle e Thousiind dollars Uiiknnwii Xothiii;.' rtnkCiraii(l<'ieor;;e> erel , re Buy St Liuvreiice Notliiii;:] , , jtiuii American hsli i'isberies 1 soinl n ,sb arc so inl'eriortrt outtit Bills tocateb ami uettiiiK Mack- hoia willi"S to til a that have boen tkir 232$ on .,^5 of a Scli' 874 and" iST-"' ^,, (JHAS Am Ell Y of May 1877 'sB. SMITH Xotary PuhUc. Jordan & Co.bavi it thirty three years, ^reaty, so called, b, 'ollows : King eigbt meu eaci our trips each vearl: ear, one ouly in ^^'i of Portland AWARD OP THE FI8IIHRY COMMISSION. 3187 No. ol llurrels of Mackerel from May St. Lawrence Tllirteen hundred and fifty in Ave years No. of ItarrelH of .Maekerel caught within 3 niilcM uf shore, not including MiiKdaleiie lHlaiid.s Averaue value of Vessels each $LMMH).()0 ,\ venire value of Oiitlltw, Salt, llait, iS:c ijiHOO.OO .Xvoni^ie value of InHurance j) o^^ AnTUfje value of CaptaiiiN' and (Jivwh' time, viz., wages per mo. .iJilJO.Oi) Avcnigc value of ConimissionH, Hm iitlL*().(M> to each vessel Average value of Wharves, Fish houses, \('., for curing and jiatdving, iiu hiding expenses of (Jlerks, I'roprietors and labor on shore Niiniltcr of Vessels lost None. Valiu' of Vessels lost, including oiitlits Vnliicof I"'i8b lost NiiinluT of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, Si(\ per cwt. lotal value of Mackerel taken, before curing, siditting, suiting, iS^c, per 1)1)1. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British s|iore.s. . None. Total value of Mackerel do Avenge market value of American Shore Mackerel lOij! for Is I'JA forL»s 8^ for 3s Average market value of Bay Mackerel Hj? for Is 7ij! for lis 5$ for 38 Average earnings of the operative flshermen per year $200.00 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and vari- ous supplies $200.00 Amount paid to British (Ishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Nothing. Amount paid in British ports for repairs Nothing. Looatioiis frequented by American vessels for Fish Western Banks. Locations fre m^i:3i •I: m >ti 1 8188 AWARD OP TIIK FISHERY C0MMIH8I0N. Vo. of VchhoIm employed yi^ No. of Trips mftdo Three, to, four No. of TripM to Hiiv 8t. Lnwrenno One nnd oceuHiotily twn No. of UurrelH otiMiickerel from Huy Ut. liiiwreiicu One, to tlireu hundred per Vcsmis No. of ItarrelM of Mackerel caught wUbiu 3 mileH of Hliore, not ineliKiin^' Magdalene IrtlandH Not more than one in un Average value of VeNHelH each four thoumuid (l()||l|^ Average value of OutfltH, Salt, liait, &c .Seven hundred il()llar> Average value of luHuranee Average value of CaptuinN' and Crews' time, viz , wagen per nio t'aitt ()(»* Crew .'Kia Average value of CommlHsionH, &c. Average value of WharveH, FishhouseH, «!tc., for curing and packiti;', including expenHes of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Nothing au we do not cure our l\n\\, but pay one twelvetli for curing; dry i\nh and about 1)^ per Url for Mackerel Number of VesHels lost Uu, Value of Vessels lost, including outfits Nine thousand dollah Value of Fish lost two thousand dollars Number of Lives lost Eleven Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cnt. do not consider tlsh of any, or at least of very little value when taken from the water Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iS:e., [ht bbl the same as above Total value of Fish taken within three miles of Itritish shores none Total value of Mackerel do do not consider flsh swimming of any value Average mai Uct value of American Shore Mackerel 12 to 15$ No 1—7 to 8 for No 2— and 5 to C$ Xo 3 Average market value of Bay Mackerel No 1—10$ No 2— 7$ No3-:)J Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year two hundred dolinrs Average ampunt paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies fifty dollars per vessel per aiinam Amount paid to British fishermen for herring nothing, | Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Twenty five hundred dollars per year | Amount paid iu British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Western Bank and (Juero Bank] Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Gulf of St Lawrence I Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking noiiej Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken nonel Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting Aniericnnj fisheries Within the last few years the mode of taken Mackerel has change en I tirely. from taken them by the Hook to seining, or netting, and foroarj shore fishing it has become useless to send a vessel without a seiD,r while in the Gulf of St Lawrence, our fisherman have been unable tousej them to any profit, owing to the rocky Nature of the bottom, and tbej large quantities of small Herring, that fill the meshes of the seiue, tbd Mackerel are inferior to those taken on our own Shore, for these causesj we have been gradully withdrawing from the Gulf of St Lawrenc^ AWARD OF TIIK FIHIIKKY COMMIHHION. 3189 (iHiierieH, laHt year Hoiidiiiit only one vcnnoI, anil thi8 your mIiiiII not uend ''"'^* (JKOIKSK TKKFKTIIKN THOMAS H. JACK Htatk of Maink, \ CUMIIKKLAND Oo. HH \ Sworn and subMcrlbed to before nie, thiH .11 mI day «»f May 1S77 (Heal.) lA'AWa II. SMITH .\olaryI'ubUo. No. II a. This is to eertil'y, That the undorsiKned, (toniposin); the llrni of •!. W. Siiwyer iV: Co, have been eiipi^^ed in tlie llsiiinK business for the past Tiiirty years, at I'ortlaud Me and tliat since the Washln^jton Treaty, so calle7."». Um). 2(K)— l.'iO No. of Marrels of Mackerel caiifjht within .'{ miles of shore, not including MiiKdaleno Lslandi} Mostly Caught at Magdalene Isis Average value of Ves.sels each |r)OOU. .Vvcrage value of OutHts, Salt, Bait, (S:c 3000 yearly each Vessel .Vverage value of Insurance 9 per cent on Vessel iSi Outllts Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo.. $40. Average value of Commissions, &c 175. Average value of Wharves, Fishhouses, &c., for curing and packing, incliuling expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore 1000. Yearly Number of Vessels lost Two at Bay St Lawrence Value of Vessels lost, including outfits. . Seventeen (§17000.) Thousand Value of Fish lost ^'2000 in mackerel Number of Lives lost none Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt ct. 75 Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . None Total value of Mackerel do '' Average market value of American Shore Mackerel $1(5. 10. & 8 Average market value of Bay Mackerel ij)ll. 8 »& 0 Average earnings of the operative Hshermen i)er year $250 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- plies !!!200. each X'essl Yearly Amount paid to British tishermen for herring From f5<3 to .")00. three Vessles Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount i)aid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Western & Grand Banks Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Bay St Lawrence Actual value of Fish in the water before taken Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken " ^i^, .»«». ir;. m ti'aii^** H, "' Kf ■,' 8190 AWARD OK TIIK FIHMKUY COMMIHHION. FactH iiH to rliaiiK<''4 i» lonitioii aiitl iiiotli* of cotiiliiittliiu AiiiciiiMii lUij vrioH Our V'l'MMfU liiivo Ih>(*ii (MxlllHliiii); on tint lt«i.i Hliall Mond none tlieru tliin StMiNon. Tli«i Hliori) inark('r«>l are heth-i aipl hrin^; u higher |»ri(;e. We UHe SeineM where we I'orinaU'y used hiii)k>4,\ lineH The CodllHh ate taken nnuiy niiU'H Ironi any Hhore. and uiilim Ho National JuriMdiction .1 NV. HAW V Kit I) L FKUNAM) KOHT. II. SAWYi:i{ Htatk of Maink. Cumiii;klani) Co. sm. Hworn and tuiliNcribed to before ine, thJM '2lnt dav of May 1877. (Seal.) LKWIS I J. HMITI! SoUtry I'ldilic, No. 111). TliiH Ih to certiry,That the underHJ^ned, ct Twenty ICiglit yearu, at Portland Me and that Mince the Wasliin^toii Treaty, ho called, Iuih been in etlcct, our vomnuIh have bueen emiiluyiil us follows : No. of Vessels employed Twfiitv No. of Trips made. No.ofTripstoHay8t.Lawrenco..^«J^ !«;- '^f '^^ ^^ >«;'' No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 1871 1872 1873 1874 lS7r. is;t) 1200 «oo GOO ;«() 200 m No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught wlthiu three miles of shore, not in- cluding Magdalen Islands most caught in round Magdalene Islands Average value of Vessels each Fifty-live 1 1 inidred Average value of OutUts, Salt, Bait, &c Fifteen to Twenty hundred yearly Average value of Insurance !i"„ Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo — iii't Average value of Commissions, &c $200 Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and puckiug, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors, and labor on shore Twenty Thousand Dollars Number of Vessels lost none Value of Vessels lost, including outfits notliiiiK Value of Fish lost none Namber of Lives lost none Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt 75e Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting,. salting, &c., per bbl $2.00 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores noue Total value of Mackerel do do Average market value of American Shore Mackerel. . .$10$12$8 per Bbl Average market value of Bay Mackerel < .$11 $8 & $C per Bl] Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year .I^'^ AWAUU OF TIIK tlHIIKUY CoMMIHHlON. 3 1 Ml Avcriip* tiiiioiiiit paiil in MritiHli portH Ibr Imii, in>, iiimI viiii«iiiN miiu- |uU*M ■ •• • ••*•• ••••.••••••. •.!••• •••.^■•MF \('iirly Viiioiiiit pitid to ItritiMli (IhIiui'iiumi for tit^rriii); Aiatiiiiit piti«l to MtitUli lUlicriiuMi as wiiitcN Amount paid in Hriti.sli portM for ropaiiM locutions tVt>qm>ntO(l liy Aniciican v«>mm'Im tor KImIi liay of rutiily La llav«> iV: (irantl Hank LiicalioiiM rriMincntod l»y Anu'iican V(>hh«>In Ibr MackiMfl Capo May to Hay St. LawnMicw Ai'iiiiil valuiMiF I-'IhIi in tini water, iH-tbro taking nothing Actiiiil valuta of Mackcri'l in tli» water, lu'tbre taken nothing; laitM aH to eliaiip'M in locution and mode of condnclinK Anieriean tinb- prieH. The Hay Ht L.iwreneo Klsliin^ lias Ixhmi fallen oil' with nie for the Inst M'vcii or ei^ht yearn, HO tiiat it luiM t;ot to he an iinpoHMihilily for my vi'.ssi'ls to pay their cxpenNeH llHliin}; in tlieir waters for MaoUerel. I >li:ill fend no more veHHeh to the Hay of Ht liawreiute, {' I) TIIOMKS U. II. CI I ASK siATK (IP Maine, ) CiMnKi{i,ANi> County 8H, ♦ Sworn and HubHcrihud before me thiH L'.'ird day of May 1877, (Seal.) LKWIH H. HMITII Motary J'uhlio No. IL'O. This is to certify, That the nndersif^ned, comi>osin}; the llrm of K. II CliiiHc haye been en;i;at;ed in the lishin;; biisineM.s for the past L'O yearx, ;)t Portland & Hootldmy and that since tiie Washin^^ton Treaty, ho died, has been in ett'ect, onr yessuls havu been om[)loyed as follows: No. of VesselH employed Thirty live No. of Trips made Fonr to six to each vessel yearly No. of Trips to Hay St. Lawrence 1873 1874 i87r. 1870 1877 7 5 4 2 none No. of HarrcU of Mackerel from Hay St. Lawrence 1873 187t 1875 1870 1877 1255 lUOU 870 3(i() none No. of Harrels of Mackerel canght within 3 miles of shore, not includ- ing Magdalene Islands Most Caught in around the Mag Total valuta of Mackcn'l H At; Averat;i* earniuKH of the ot>eratlve llHliurineu per year i^'.>7)i Averaut* amount paid in llrltiMh portn for bait, lee, and varioiiH Niip plieM Que Hundred each \cNM4i Amount paid to llrltlHh flHhermeti for herrini; fOtXNl ciuli Mur Amount pai*l to ItritiMh llshernu>ii aH wa^eH.. '.'.'o^tat Amount paid in llrili.Hli portx for repairn iiniit; liOeatioiiM fre(piented hy Ameriean veM.selM for I'MnIi May Fundy \ t'ape Mju lioeiitioiis frtM|iiented hy American ve^'HelH for Maekerel to Ihiy Ht fiuwifiici Actual valu<> of Pish in the water, before taking noilijn;' Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken tiutjiiu^' I'^actH aH to clian^M'H in location and mudu of conducting; Anu>ricaii IImIi erieH I Nhall not Hcnd any more veMNclM in Dritish waters (Uhin^'; It Ims been a failure with me. lor the last (our years the vessels have not piiiil their expenscM. The llsh or mackiuel caught t'ler last year by my vt'.s hoIh are still on my hamis; I have been unable to sell them at any piici' they bein;; such poor (Quality the dealers will not take them when ttin can >;et our shore matikerul. E. 11. ci!.\si: HTATK dl' M.VINK ( Cl'MMKKI-AM) ('•». SS ) Hworn and subscribed to boforo mo, this 23r(l dav of May 1877. (Heal.) LEWIS Jl. 8M1TII Motaru J'lthlk, No. 121. This is to certify. That the undersigned, composing the llrm of CiS: 11 Trefethen have been engaged in the tlshing business for the past Six years, nt Portland Maine and that since the Washington Treaty, ho called, has been in elVect, our vessels have been employed as follows: No. of Vessels employed Tweiifv No. of Trips made One hundred pr year for all of the vcshcIs No. of Trips to Hay St. Lawrence Nine since 1S71 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from IJay St. Lawreiu'e Fourteen hundred seventy ci^'lit No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within .'{ miles of shore, not incliKliiij; Magdalene Jslaiuls ' Noiu' Average value of Vessels each Three thousand dollius Average value of outtlts. Salt, Bait, &c Eight hundred " Average value of Insurance Twenty two hundred dolIiu.s Average value of Captains' and Crew s' time, viz., wages per mo. Thirty dollars Average value of Commissions, &c. Three per cent on net stock to Capts of vessels Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing) including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Twenty five thousand dollars Number of Vessels lost One Value of Vessels lost, iDcIuding oatflts Four thousand dollars Valueof Fish lost AWAKIl or TlIK riNIIKRY COMMIHMION, 8103 NiimtMT of Iii\ i»n loNt Fifteen I'liliil \alii» of I'MhIi tiikcti, Itct'tire (MirliiiJ, uplitllnt;, Nr 1)1)1 Twoilollur* Totnl viilno of KInIi taken within thuni niileM of llriliMli nliorefl lotal vithn^ of MiirkerrI «lo. Avt'rai;*' niiiikct viilue of AiniMinm Slinic Miiikrrel T«>ii ilolliirH Avfriiu<* nuirki't vulno of Itu.v Mii(;kt'ri>l l-!iu;lit tlolliuN AviTiiKi* c'urniiiKN of tliu openilivu tlHlionnrn per vein- Two linntlied t^ Meventy ilolliirN AvoniKe iiinonnt piiiil in IliitiMli portt for Imit, i<>i>, iitul vaiioii>4 MiipplirM One hnnilreil and lifty ilnllarH pi- ynir lor imicIi \t'.>ll Amoiiiit paid to ItritiNJi llMln*nnen for lierriiiK Two liiuidred dollars pr year AmDinit paid t<» llritiNh llHiiernien as waKeM..TIiirty tlioiiMund hmum' ISTI Amount paid in llriti.sh port.s for repairM Tlirce linndri'd dollars Ninco ISTt LocatiuiiH freipuMited l»y American ve.sMi'U for l''isli NVeHtern ^S: (^lU'reau Mank «Js, (Inlf of St l-awrein-e Locations frcqnontud by American vessels lor Mackerel ('oast of the I'nited .States iS: Onlf of St Lawrence Actual valne of Fish in the water, before takiii); Nothiiif; Actual valne of Mackerel in the water, before taken Not hint; JactN as to ehangen in lotuition and mode of condnctin^ American tisli- cries Wo have not had any vosmoIh en{;aKed in mackerell llshin); in Itritish waters the past year, we consider tliat liranch of Ushiii); a failnru as Mra.s the (iulf of St Lawrence is con(;erned onr maitkerell fishing is all iliMieoii the coast of the United States those en^a^ed in codllshin); no iiiu.stly to Western iS: (^iierean Kanks ami occasionally to (inlf of St I.iiwrcnce, bnt the last named nshin);(;ronnd has prooved almost u fail- C iS: II. TKKKKTIIKN lire the puHt year Statk of Ma ink j CUMIJEUI.ANI) Co. 88 j Sworn and subscribed to before me, this li(5th dav of Mav 1H77 No. 122. LEWIS 1). SMITH Nutiuif I'uhliv. Tlii.s is to certify, Tliat the undersi;ined, composinjj the tirm of Chase >vCu.sliin^ this Company have been en^a^ed in the tishin<; business for tlie past thirty tive years, at Portland .Mo and that since the VVasliin;,'ton Treaty, so cnllcd, has been in ellcct, our vessels have been entployed as t'lillows : No. of N'easels employed Twelve No. of trips made lOverajf three 187L' IHIH 1874 1S7.J IS70 No. of trips to Hay St. Lawrence ... 4 2 2 ;{ 2 1S72 1S73 1871 187^ 1870 No, of r.arrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 000 425 .300 2.30 180 No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands None ti "^-tfiii^ I 3191 AWARD OF TIU: FI8IIEKY COMMISSION. Averago viiluo of vohmi'Ih vnvh i:i,(H( Avt'iUK*^ viilucofOutfltH, Hair, niiir,it(;. . . . lOOO lla.v dips Hm Slioiv Tups Avt'raKti valiio of Insiiraiicci Avi'rajjci value ot (!aptaiiiH' and Orow.s' liiin', vi/., wajjos pi'r mo ff'M) Avoraj{t» vaMio of ('oimiiissions, «S:(i iji.'mo Avorafit' value of \Vliaiv«'s, l-'ish lumst's, &,{>,, for curiiij? atul piickiiijr, inehuliiig (>xpi>n.s(>H of (Mi>rks, ProiM'iotors and laboi' on slioic L'D.OO Number of VesH«'l.s lo8t Value of VesHels lost, includint; oiitllts Value of Kish loHt Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before <'urlnj;, splitting,', saltinj;, \c. per vwt (id (ts Total value of JMackerel taken, before eurin;?, splittiii}?, saltinj,', ^c . pci bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of Hritisli sliores Total value of Mackerel do. Averatje nuirket value of American Shore Mackerel 1(5. I'J. s Avera}{0 market value of liay Mackerel 10. 7, J Average earnings of the operative llshermen per year L'Oii Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies Amount paid to British llshermen for herring Amount paid to British llshermen as wajj;es Amount paid in British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vestJels for Fish Locations fre«iueute«l by American vessels for Mackerel Actual value of Fish in the water, before takinjj Notliiii}; Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken Notliiiij,' Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries Senes are Moslley yousd for Shore lishiug for Mackerling on the Cost of New England We Have No Seains in youso in inglish Watters the Ashing for Mackerling in Bay Stlorece & Shelore Bay We Have Abandend as a Lusing Buesnes M M (;hasf EMERY CUSHINC. State of Maine, ) Cumberland, ss ) Sworu and subscribed to before me, this 2l8t day of May 1877. LEWIS B. SMITH Notary rubliv. No. 123. This is to certify. That the undersigned, William Maddocks liiive been engaged in the fishing business for the past Sixty-Two years, at Southport. Me, and that since the "Washington Treaty, so called, lias been in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows : No. of Vessels employed Ten (10) No. of Trips made Three 1874 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 1 only in five years. No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence uone. No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not iuclud- ing Magdalene Islands None ION. l."i,(l() •ips <»0() Shon'Triiis iijjert pi'i' mo — ff'M\ s!":;:.!) muii aiul piicUiii),', ihoi' «>ii shoiT IIL', NilltillkS ?ar '-'•"' and vjirious siipitlics I ikerel Nothing en... Notliiiig noting American lisli- ackerling on the Cost inglish Wattera the lore Bay We Have il M (3HASE IMEllY CUSlllMl ly of May 1877. as B. SMITH Notary I'm/'/ic liam Maddocks have it Sixty-Two years, iit Treaty, so called, has J follows : ....Ten (10) ■/■■/_ Three 11874 1 only in five years. gg none. K of sliore, not iuclud- AWARD OF THE I'lSIIERY COMMISSION. .'5195 Avora^je value of Vessrls oaeh )!<.'»..■»(»(> AvcTii^M) valine of OutlKs, Salt, Halt, i^v. l-'.r»(M> Av«'r.iu«' value of InsunuKui !».() prr cent AviT'int* value of C'aptaius' an*L'r».(H)i) Nunilier of N'essels lost Viiliio of Vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Nninlter of liives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, s[»litting, salting, &c., per cwt TiO (ients per 100 lbs Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, vScc., per bbl l.r»0 per bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores. . nothing Total value of Mackerel do " Average market value of American Shore Alackerel IS. 12. 8. Average nnirket value of Bay Mackerel 12. 8. .'5. i)er bbl — Average (iarnings of the operative fishermen per year -ItliOO.OO Average amount i)aid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies Amount paid to liritish fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages siTiOO. — per annum. Vmount paid in liritish ports for repairs $50 " " Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Western Banks Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to East port. Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken '' Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries 1 sent one vessel to Bay St. Lawrence in 1874 — and she lost 6.>00 on the trip — Previous to 1870 we fitted a largo fleet for Jio Bay — but coidd not make it pay, and consider that fishing entirely worthless. The fish whicli our vessels bring are caught on Banks many miles from the ju- risdiction of any government WM T MADDOCKS. State of Maine Lincoln s.s. Sworn ans^w^' 3196 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. of liarrols of Mdckorul caught witliiu 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands nono Average value of Vessels each fjTj.OOo Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $3.00(i Average value of Insurance i)"^^ Average valueof Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo >" kC Average value of Commissions, «Scc >f'200— Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &o., for curing and packirior, including expensesof Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore. !?ir).ooo_ Number of Vessels lost one Value of Vessels lost, including outfits §7.O00_ Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iVi;. [itr rtt cwl r»o.c- Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iJcc, iter bbl Sl.'iO Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores Nothing Total value of Mackerel do " Average market value of American Shore Mackerel IS. 12. "i Average market value of Bay Mackerel 11. 7. 4 Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year fiJL'OO— Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various sup- ])lies. ,!?.")00.- Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $100.— Amount paid in British ports for repairs $400.00 per aiinuin. Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Western Banks & Orphan. Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to Eastport. Me. Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Notliini; Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken " Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries We send no vessels to Bay fishing — It is abandoned so far as our selves — are interested. Shore Mackerel bring one third more than bay and the catch, with seine is surer — Our vessels catch flsh on banks with trawls, many miles from any iw tional jurisdiction — Our experience in Bay fishing has been ruinous— FREEMAN OKNE State of Maine Lincoln s.s. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Twenty. Third day of May 1877— (Seal.) G. B. KENNISTOX Notary Public No. 125. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of Moses E. Peirce & Co — have been engaged in the fishing business for the past Forty years, at Boothbay, Me. and that since the Washington Treatv. 80 called, has been in eflfect, our vessels have been employed as follows: re, not incliuling UOIIO .*5.()()0 $3.00(1 per mo — ^fM)— >}'2m~ ng and packing, I shore.!? I "..000- one 87.000- , salting, tS:i!. i)or .lO.c- [, salting, &('., \m 81..10 ,h shores Notliing u .'.'.".".".'.".IS. 12. :. 11. 7. 1 iJL'OO- and various sup- .*.".00.- $100.- 400.00 per annum, Banks & Orphan, -el y to Eastport. Me, Nothing ing American tisli- ned 80 far as our- md the catch, with miles from any uiv 8 been ruinous— EEMAN OKNE Third day of May KENNISTON Notary Public g the tirra of Moses usiness for the past ^Vashington Treaty. ployed as follows; AWARD OV THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3197 So, of Vessels employed , Fifty Ko. of Trips made average of Threo 187li lH7;i ISTt 187'> 1870 >fo. of Trips to Hay St. Lawrence 0 h (> c, i> 1872 1873 1874 187') 1870 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Law- rence 1200 800 1200 000 200 No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene Islands Did not flsh in St. Le. but Modaline Lslands Average value of Vessels each $r)()0(>.-.eacU Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c $20(KK — each Average vsilue of Insurance 0 [ler cent Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo $ij0.00 per mo. Average value of Commissions, &c .*2")(>.00 Average value of Wharves, Fishhou.ses, &c., for curing and packing, in- cluding expenses of Clerks, Troprietors and labor on shore $30,000 Number of Vessels lost Three. Value of Vessels lost, including outfits $25,000 Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, tS:c. percwt 7r» cents Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per hbl .$200 Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores . . . Nothing Total value of Mackerel do " Average market value of American Shore Mackerel . . 1(». 12 — 8 — per bbl. Average market value of Bay Mackerel 11. 6. 4 Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year $250 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $3,000 per annum Amount paid to British fishermen for herring $2,000 per annum Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $500 " '< Amount paid in British ports for repairs $500 " " Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish. Grand & Western Braddelle & Orphan Banks Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape May to St. Lawrence. Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken " Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries Fishing business in my case has been changed from hand lining to trawling seining — Can send no vessels to Bay of St. Laurence profit- oily— business had so depreciated — Our vessels now fished on banks, without national jurisdiction. My Mackerel have been caught chiefly on our own shores — for the bay fishing has been an entire failure — I cannot ship a crew of good fishermen in this place to go to the bay M E PEIKCE State of Maine Lincoln. Sworn and subscribed to before me, this Twenty-second day of May 1877 (Seal.) G. B. KENNISTON Notary Fuhlic. is L.. ' 1" *'-■ ■ -/if; 3108 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 120. Tlii.s is to certify, That tlie undersigmnl, ^teplicn (r. Hodgdoii jiavf l)een eiig.igod in the ll8liin'o. of Trips made . Time trips each — KcofTrips to liny St. Lawrence ^'^J" '"J/'' ^^^^ >'^"' ^'^;" No. of Barrels of ^hickerel from Bay St. Lawrence 187L' IST.'J 1.S74 is;.". 1,S7(» WW KMMI 7(10 I.nod :S(K) No. of Harrels of Mackerel canght within 3 miles of shore, not itu'liid- iiig Magdalene l.slands ^1 >id no fish in shore — Average value of Vessels each j? 1, (lOO — Avi'rage value of Outtlts, Salt, IJait, &e *.'{, 000 — Average value of Insurance !► per cent — Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages )»er nio..!^l(). — Average value of C(»mmi88ions, »S:c !i per bll Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year $200. — Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $2,500 per annum. Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages $750 i)er annum — Amouut paid in British ports for repairs $400. per annum Locations frequented by American ves.sels for F^ish Grand Bank «S: Western. Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Cape JMay to Bay of St Laurence. Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Nothing Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taking " Facts as to changes in location and mode of conducting American fish- eries My method of doing fishing business has been totally changed within ten year — We fish by trawls and seines— where we used formerly hand lines entirely — Our shore Mackerel bring much larger prices — and men (lecline to be shipped for the bay if they can get other work — Our Bank tisbermen take their fi.sh many miles from any national jurisdiction. ALLEN LEWIS ilr*,"f. ">«^ 3200 AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. \ I I hi ! I » ;i- 8TATE OK iMAINR. lilNCOLN. 88. Sworn an _ No. of Trips made Tlnn ' 1872 187;i 1874 187.". IHIH No. of Trii)8 to Hay St. Lawrence — •) •> •> ') ,) -rf t> *j w J No. of llarrels of Mackerel from Hay St. Lawrence averaj^e trips I.'jO bbls oiuli No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within ;{ miles of shore, not incliid ing Magdalene Islands not anv Average value of Vessels each ^^.Mh Average value of Outtits, Salt, Bait, &c •'jL'.olJii Average value of Insurance \) per ceot Average value of Captains' and Crows' time, viz., wages pernio... '§35.011 Average value of Commissions, ..^c ^L'oO.W Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, including expenses of Clerks, rroi)rietors and labor on shore..!i!L'0.00> 'I I trips 1")0 bbls oiuh of shore, not iiu'lud not am ' . .' ffMi \' M'.'.dUll \) per cent affos per mo.. $35.00 .:. 8-'5o,()() juring ami packing, oron8hore..!i*20.WJ one $7,0(KI ■■■■' $2,000 saltiug, &c. per cwt 50 cents per 100 lbs. ilittiog, salting, iVc.. $1.50 per bbl sii shores... nothiui; ....••■•• 18. VI. 8 ^ 7 — 5 per bbl- sar... $200.00 per an. and various supiilies $500.00 per an. . . $250. per anmm ] ....$250. " " , i....\VesternBank^| lerel , y to Bay St. Laurece (1 xcting American tisu- 1 ihiinged. from band- AWARD OF TIIK FIHUKUY COMMISHION. .'{201 (iooil iniMi (Miiinot bit liad for \l.iy llHliin^ mid alt our lisli ure taken on till' It.iiiUs fiir iVom the jurisdiction ot any Oi»\-«'rnin(Mit. .VII vessels sent iiit(»llM' l>ay olHt,. Ijiinreuco lor three years have not paid their bills and 1 shall st'nd no more — A 1* lIODdDON ."^TATK OK MAINK — hlNCOI.N S..S. Sworn an«l sub.seribed to beb)re me, this twenty-second day of May is:;. (Seal.) (J. J{. KKNMSTON — Notary I'uhlic. No. 12!>. This is to <'(»rtify, That the nndersi^jned, Luther Maddociks liave been ('ii),'au'ed ill the llsliiiii;' business for tli(^ past l-'iltfen yciirs, at IJiothbay .Me ami that since the \Vas|iiii;;toii Treaty, so (jailed, has been in el'lect, (iiir ve.sst'ls have been employed as follows : No. of vessels employed ...Thirteen Ni), of 'flips made Ni). olTiips to Hay St. LawreiKie Nothing siii(!e 1S72 — No. ot liarrels of Mackerel from Hay St. LawnMuie none No. ot Uarrels of .Macken^l (langlit within .'> miles of shore, not in cliidiiiy; .Magdalen*^ Islands »' .\v('ra};e value of Vessels each $5,000 .Vvi'ra;,'e value of Outfits, Sait, IJait, &i! $'J.5()() eaiih .U(*ra}i(t valne of Insurance 0",^ per cent Avera^ji^ value of Captains' and Crew.s' time, vi/., wages per mo $tO Averaj;e value of Commissions, v*tc $'J50 Averaf,'e value of Wharves, Kisli houses, iS:(!., tor (Miring and parking, iiicliiding expens(?s of Clerks, Pro[)rietors and labor on shore. $.'{(). 000 Niiiiil)er of Vessels lost Two (2) Viiiiie ot Ves.sels lost, including outfits $7,000 each — Viilue of Fish lost Niiiiiher of Li ves lost Fourteen Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c. per cwt. -70 cents Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, iritish shores i Total value of Mackerel do none Av('i'a},'e market value of American Shore ALickerel. 1(5. ILJ. S. per Itbl — Avciiijic market value of liay Mackerel 11. 7 — 5 per bbl — I Average earnings of the operative tishermeii per year $l,'-5 — 00 per annum. Average amount i)aid in JJritish ports for bait, ice, and various supplies $U.(t(M) per annum — Amount paid to Hritish fishermen for herring .si.tHiO— " |Aiiioiiiit paid to IJritish fishermen as wages $ry — liiit \V(> wi'i'(M-oiii|K!ll(>d to iiUiindoii tli<^ ItiLsiiicss ^c for llvi*yfai>, liiivtt Ihiimi wholly oiijra^rd in tint Mitnliiidi^ti iS: Ma(;k(>i-iil tlshfi'y on oiir own «!oiist — Tim liiiyof St. Ij;iiii'«'Im;o (Isln'iy, |»rovinj;, in my tvK|MMii'ii(c, a total lailiirt^ and for that reason wo have Neiit no vcssi'ls IImm*' for livi' yciiris — iS: liavti taken no tisliof any kind within thrco miles of the .siioic-. Htatk ok Maink LlNOULN Hti B liUTHKIl MADDOCKS. Sworn and .siibscrlbod to before mo, this Twenty second day of .Mav 1877— (Seal.) (i. 15. KKNNIHTON \olary J'lihlw. No. VM). This is to (jortify, That; the nndersif^ned, Levi Ileed, have been eiij,'a<;((| in the lishint; busiiieHs for the past Forty years, at llootlibay, Alt'— and that sinee the Washintjtoii Treaty, so called, has been iu etlect, oiii Ms Bels have been employed as follows : Mo. of Vessels employed riirn No. of Trips maile Tlirn' No. of Tri|)s to Hay St. Lawreiico None within live yeiiis- No. of IJarrels of Slaekerel from May St. liawrence Nmic No. of IJarrels of Mackerel caujjht within 3 miles of shore, not iiicliKliii;' Miifjdalene Islands none Average value of Vessels each , .fooOO cai h Averas^e val'ie of Out tits, Salt, Bait, ri(;an IIhIi- ciit'S HnsincHs liaH boconio ho nnreinunativi^ that I liavtt Ihmmi coinpt'llnl to Kbaiidtiii it, HO an May 8t. Lawrnn(!(^ (*atli now with senrrs in aincrl- ran waters. Never ^'ot llsh within lOn^dish Jiirindicttion Ixit on hanks lar littia shore. LIOVI IMOKh Statk of Maink LlN«'OLNS.8. Sworn and Hul)s{){) Avcra;,'!) value of Insuramic. 10 per cent Avt'iajio value of Captains' and drtiw.s' time, viz., wages per mo. $l()_j,er month AviMiijie value of Commissions, «S:c. A200 — Avi'ra^ic value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, iiiiliiding expenses of Clerks, I'roinietors and labor on shore ISix thou.sand dollars. Niiniher of Vessels lost none Viiluc of Vessels lost, including outlits " Value of Fish lost " Niinil)er of Lives lost " Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, ^a. per cwt .")0 cents per IDO lbs. Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, .salting, iki-., per libl .'^2.00 i)er bbl. Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores caught none Total value of Mackerel do " " Average market value of American Shore Mackerel IG. 12. 8. Average market value of Bay Mackerel 10 — 0 — 4. per bbl. -Vvi'iage earnings of the operative lishernicn per year Less than $200. per mau. # ;«■' *••* )l X 111 8204 AWAIU) OK TIIK KIHUKRY COMMIHMION. AvcniKt) iiiiioiiiit paid in HritiMli portH tor bait, ice, uihI viirioiis nwy. plifH . fiO pi*i iiiiiiiiin. Aiiioiiiit p)ii«l to IlritlHli IIhIii'Iiiioii (or lioriiii); Ainoiiiit paiii to lliitisli IIhImtiik'h as wa^cs Ainoiiiit pai.shcIn for Fish VVcMtrrn Itanli | <^in'i(> lliiiik, liOcatJoiiH l'n>ipi<>nt(Ml l>y Aincricaii vi>hh«'1.s lor Mairltcrcl. coast of .M.ijn,. AtttiDil value ol T'InIi in tlic water, liel'ore taking; Nulliin^ Ae.lnal valne of Mackerel in the water, Itelore taken " I<'acts as to fishing' business lor tlie|i;ist Twenty-Two years, at Hoothbay. Maine and tlnit since tin* \Vasliiii|>tiiii Treaty, so called, has been in ett'cct, our vessels iiavo been employed as follows: No. of V^essels employed tcii No. of Trips nuide Three trips eadi— No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 1«72 1H73 1874 1875 islD 20 15 10 10 4 No. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrencie 1872 1873 187-4 1875 1870 5.000 2.000 1.500 No. of Barrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not imsluding Magdalene Islands not one tt-ntli Average value of Vessels each fflWi) Aveiage value of Outfits, Salt Bait, &c 8:-' •">(Hi Average value of Insurance 0 per cciit Average value of Captain.s' and Crews' tinjo viz., wages per mo..'1'io- Average value of Commissions, &c .*L'.")li— Average value of WImrves, Fish-houses, &(!., for curing and packiiii;', including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Fifteen Tliousand dolliii's. Number of Vessels lost Tliit'c— Value of Ve.s.sels lost, including outfits Thirteen Tlioiisaini Value of Fish lost •'J-';'""' N und)er of Lives lost i'"" Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, »!v:t'., I't*' cwt 70 cents pe KM) \h>— Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, Ai'i l)erbld -^I.";"- Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British sliores. .Norliin;' Total value of Mackerel do $300 i)er ainiimi N. AWAKI) OF TIIK FIHIIKUY ('OMMIHHION. 3205 uhI viirioiH Niip. .r)0 \H'i aiiiiuiii— ik I (^M'ln llillik. i>l. coast of .M,iiiii> Nottiiii^r 1^ AiDfrican \U\\- ii'isdic.tioii of aiis «1 liotli iiiailc Iml iiy. i)V IJLAKK riiini (lay ol Mny ;nnist()n Nolafji I'lihik: fr tlu' Arm ol' Me siiu'SH lor tlic iiii>i 0 tilt) Wasiiiiintoii lieiMi omploji'iliis ten ihrce trips eaili- 1874 1.S75 ISlli 10 10 i 1874 1875 1876 1.500 f Hliore, ...not one tenth ijil.OIH) ........ 8:^."'t«' 9 piT Ct'llt {CH per mo..*!"— '^ ,*'jr)(i- iriiis ami pai'kin^'. »r on hIioh' Tliousand (lollin's, ThitM- riiirteon Tlionsaml ... . • • • • V-* Ten , Baiting? H'— ting, saltiiitr, -N^''^ .r •"*l.''i'i- h siiores-.Notl'iiiS ..$300 per aiiniiui Avirape iniu ket valne of Anierlean Shore Mac^kerel IS — t'j. 0. AvciaK*' iinuket valiii* of May Maekcrfl ... 11.8. 0 — prr hlil — Avi'iajje rarnin^H of the operative llsherincn per year . . (ffJlT), — A\t'raKe auioiiiit paid in IlritiNli ports for halt, iec, an«l varions snp- plies ije.MMi — prrannnin — Aiiioiiiit paiti to itrilisli lishcrineM for herring; ijcido '» *• AniDiiiit paid to Mrltish llslierincn as wa^es iiil,0(N>. — ^* " Amount paid in Itritish ports for repairs [.Illations frei|iiented l»y American vessels for Kish (irand — iS: Western lianka liucatioiis fre(|iiented hy American vessels tor Mackerel Cape May to Hay St. Law. At'lual valne of iish in the water, before taking Less than nothing Actual vidne of Ma«'kerel in tile water, Uefore taken . . " " '• Fiicts as to <-hanKes in ioitation and mode of coiidnetin^ AmericMin llsh- cries We hav(^ now dissolved partner ship — and the hnsiness cannot l)«t {iiotital)ly eondiicte(l. Fishing was prolltalile only during; tlu^ (>\eite- iiit'iit of lh(^ war — N(>ver caii^ht any Iish within the jiirisdiclioii of any ijoviTiimeiit ex(!ept Ameritran — iMsliinjj; is conducted now by trowliiifi; &, with Seines. SIMON M( DOrdAIJi .JAMl-:S L UACIO statk of Maine- Lincoln H.H. Sworn and subsiiribed to before mo, this twontysecond day of May IS'" (Seal.) (I. 15. KI:NNIST()X, Notary Public, In the Hay of St. Lawreiuic in the years 1875 & 1870 the bnsiness of tisliiii^j was so niipi'olitable that we send none this year. It is impossible to get good lishcrmcn to ship for such voyages — .lAMKS L UA(JK Statk of Maine- Lincoln s. s. IVrsonally appeared James I;. Uaco on this Twenty second day of Miiy A. I). 1877. and made oath to the truth of the above statement by biiii subscribed — (Seal.) G. B. KKNNISTON Xotary I'lihlic. No. 133. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the linn of S. Niiki'ison & Sons have been engaged in tlie li.sliiiig business lor tli'j piist Eleven years, at Boothbay. Me. and that since the Washiiigttui Treaty, so called, has been in ellect, our vessels have been employed as follows : Xe. of Vessels employed l-'our. ^0. ot Trips made averag(^ six trips each — 1S72 1873 1871 1S75 1870 *^i* J 0 0 0 1872 1873 No. of Trips to Bay St. Lawrence 2 2 ifo. of Barrels of Mackerel from Bay St. Lawrence 300 300 "[Wm-iTm. 8206 AWAUU or THE FIHIIKKY COMMIMHIUN. 11 i No. »»!' Hiun-lM <»r Muckcrol (Miiij^lit witliiii M iiiIIi'h of Hlmri', not Iticliiil illK MiiK'lilli'lli' IhIiiiiiIm. iioii,, Avi'iiiui* valiii* of VcmncIh viwh i!>>V(NNL. Avri'ii(;i> viiliK' of ( iiitlltH, Sail, Malt, iSco ■I'Ihiio-. Avi'ia^i' valiit' ol liiHiiniiirtf <> |m>i cnit Avci'UK*' valiif ot (!a|itaiiiH' ami rrowH' tiiiii*, vi/.., wa^i'M |M>r iiio. iiiMMNl|.n iii.i. Avri'at{o value of (loiniiiisHioiiN, ikt", iji'.'iMi-. AvtMii^t' value of \Vliai'V(>H, l''isli Iioiih(>m, *!vi'., lor ciiriii^ ami pacUiii);, iii(!lii«liiiK ( ot N'cMsels loMi, liicliiiiiiiK uutlUit ijih.ihhi.iiii ValiH' ol 1''imIi lo.Ht i?M»iu._ NiiiiiImm ol Lives lonf noiii' Total valiiu of l''i.ih takuii, bitforu uuriiit;, HplitlliiK« Halting, i\:r. pir «\vt 7A ('•'iilM — prr 1(10 wrinin Tolal value of Miu^kercl taken, boforo niriiiu, HplittitiK. Naltinu, ^c, |mi bbl i5«l*0(» pn liliU Total value of I'^jsli taken within three iiiileH of Mriti.Hh NlioreH. .iiDtliiiii; Total value of Mackerel do " Aveia;;e luaiket value of Ann ricran H!iorii Mackerel 111. I'J ^: H per l.l.U Average market value of Hay Mackerel II. «1— ,") Averajfe eaiuiiins «>l' the operative llMliermeii per year ijj.'iii Average amount paid in llriti»>h ports for bait, iee, and various sup plieM ijil,()(t(i_ Amount paid to Hritish llNliermen for lierriii); not Inn:' Amount paid to Itiitish llMh(>rmeii uh wa^'es iji.'ino.OO per miiiiiiih- Amoiint paid in Uritish ports for n-paiis ijt.'KlO.OU pei' aiiiiiiin. Lo(;alions frei|U(iiited by Aiiu'rican vesNels for I'Msli (irand i{ank.> — Western H;iiiks Locations frc(]iUMitod by Amorican vessels for Ma<'kerel now oil" our own (mum, Aaiik> many miles from any National .lurisdicti, lint Ihi'liiil Ilitlir (jl.l.OtMl-.. , ijiLHUd- !► |M'| (flit H plM° till). iJiUMK) pn tiiii. |J|J(MI_ iiriiit; mill 1(1 labui' oil Ijtl.VlMHl On. ijfH.imtMKi ^mi— IIOIIC Hiiltiiik't ^<'- jxr ( — per KM! wcihIii ;, Hultiiiu, \)'., |ii'i . I!»LM»0 per l»l.|_ I HititrcH. .Iiotlllli;; . 12 iSi H per Itltl- ii.<;-:. ■ ^'.'.'((i aiid various Miip )5< 1,(1(1(1- , iiotliiiiu' 10.00 per iiiiiiiiiii- per aiiiimii. , — WchIciii l»;iiik^ •el oil' our own »'o;iM. NotliiiiK It iliuttin;,' AiiuTican ,s— ill a IVw .veurs, iiftvr Maclvcnil lit-. of our vessels t.iki' ijjht on the Hanks . NICKKKSON NlCKi:i:S()N AWAKI) OK TIIK FINIIKUY OOMMINHION. 3207 liNNIHTON Notary I'uWk. g the firm of Jolm u: business for the IHiNt Fort,vThre<> .yimrH, at llo«»thbii,v and that Ninct* tho Waohinutoii liciil.v, so calleil, hilM Immmi in etVeel, our xeNNelM havo been einplo,\r(l ii4 lollowN : No. (if VenMelHeiiiph).ve«l I'.laht— (H) Sit.iil 'I'lijiH math* /lTripH«Mieh veMN(>| ,veaii> a^eruge. Ni». of TripH to Hay St. Iiawrene(>. . . . uww »• •» ' •» ' HV. eaeh IH-'J IH7.1 1H7I IST-T IH7H So, of liarrelsof Mackerel from May St. I,;i\\ ii'iiee. M)0 :.0 IL'.'. 100 0 eaeh— No. of Kairels of .Mackerel eaiiuhl wit Inn .'( miles of short* no. Iiiclniliii^ Mii^ Islands iioii(> except near Moileline Is. .Vvcliine value of N'esscls each .\v(>ra;.'e valin* of Ontllts, Suit, Halt, tS:( , averaue ij.rOOO Av('i;it{c value of liisiiianc*- about H per eeiit ,Vvi-i'ii;;e valine of Captains' and rrews' time, vi/., wages per iiio 4110.00 per nii»— Average vtdiu' of Commissiotis, (.S:(^ iil-Ll"». — ,\vrni;;e value of Wharves, Kisli houses, «!<:(<,, f(U' cnriu}; and packing, itu'liiding expenses of (Jhu'ks, l'ropriet(U'rt and libor on sliori* (i(l!0.000.— Niiiiilier of Vessels lost Two — Viiiiic of Vessels lost iiu'ludin^' ontllts F(Mtrteen Tluuisand dollars. Villi f Fish lost ijjJ.tMMI— Niiiiiher of Lives lost innio Total value of l<'ish taken, betore curing, splitting, salting, \'c. per (;wt 70.C Sc\ ciitv «'eiitH Total value of iMa(;kerel tak(>n, before luiring, splitting, salting, iS:(;., per lihl. ift'J.OO Total valiK! of l<'isli taken within three miles of ISiitish slior(>s. n<»tliiiig Total value of ,Ma«!kercl do '' Avcragt* inaiket viiliie of .\merican Slion* Mackerel. 10. 10. M — per bbl .\v('iag(^ market value of ISa.v Macikerel II. 8, (J—pci hbl- Av('ia;,'e earnings of the opeialiv(* llsheriucn per year !5«L,'(io.O() Average amount paid in British ports tor bait, ice, and various sup' plies ijl.OOO vearly— Aiiioiiiit paid to British tishermeii for herring. AiiKiiiiit paid to Mritinh llsh(>rmen as wages Aiiioiiiit paid in Hritish ports for repairs ... Ijocati (IS freipn.'iited by American vessels for Fish .)00 ,>«l..'»oi» " ..ijt.lOO.— " (Irand & Western Hanks. Locations freipientcd by American vessels for Mackerel ('ajte May to Imy St Lawrenco Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking nothing Aitiial vaIiUM)f Mackerel in the water, belbre taken " I'act.sas to changes in locution and mode of conducting American lish- eiics We have had vcssells engaged in «M)d lishing generally and macker- econd day of Mii.v B iiHiiig olV our shore — The bay lishing has dem-eased in value each year lor live years till it is now worthless — VVe sent nom^ in 1S7(J t.S: .shall kcikI none 1877. On this (soast our vesscllslish lor mackeial using seines pciicrally since Mackeral (iaught here are worth to per cent more than Bay .Ma(!keral — Our llsli are taken on the liaiiks far from shore outside ofiUiy National jurisdiction W G McCLlNTOCK ) JOUN U McULINTOUKf •^' ■^i^^^if^it. S''2i)H AWAin» OK TIM', I'lHIIKUV MMIHHI(>N. St AT 10 OK Maink— lilNrol.N S. H. Swttni iiihI Nul)^'(■l'illlMl to Ix'Toro tiir, this 'r<.v«>iitv scfniiil tiny of M u 1877 (Hnil.) (). It. KKNNISTON i\o(ain I'lihlir No. ii»r.. This i.s lo ('(M'lir.v, 'riiiil tlio uii'.l(\vl Stinson li'iNO \u'('U cti^ii^nl in tlio llMliiii)^ iHiMiiicNs lor tlii> pust hvt'iil.v ,\('tns, iM Swans lsliin«l iiinl Unit sin(M> IImn Witsliin^ton 'l'ii';ii\, NO I'ulit'd, inis tu't'n in vtV«'rl,our vrssil«»,VtMi 0 No. of 'rri|»s nnnli< tl |iri \('iir No. ofrrijis to l'o. ol' ttnrrcls ol' Ma«'U(>ri>l I'rorn Itav St. Ijiiwrrnco No. of Itiirrcls ol' Maciv(>i'«>l ('an,alil within .'( niih>s of shore, in)t incliidiii); iMaf!:«hil«>n«> Islantis Avoia^«< vahu« of V»'ss«>ls oao;i . ijCt.OdO Avrnim^alnoof Onttlts, Salt, Hail, iS:r ij*'J(l(>0 per .year Avorajj*" vahio of lnsnranc«« .'{(»(( " " Av» of Captains' an valn(> of NVharvt's, I'ish hinisi's, iS;c., for cnrinjj ami pacliiii;;, inclinlin^ t^xpcnsos of ('U>rks, Proprietors and lalioron slion^ llidiiii Kninlu'r of N'es.sds lost (tun Valuo of Vt'sst'ls h»st, inchnUn;; ontlits LTilll) Vahio of Fish l«»st \sm Nninbor of I,iv»>s h>st Total vaino of l''ish taluMi, bcforo cnrin;;, splitfin{j, salting, «&(!., per cwt l.iii) Total vaIno of Mafkcrcl takt^n, boforo »Mirin{f, splittinjjf, saUiuf;, iVc,., jicr bbl L'.IO l\>tal vaIno of Kish takon within throo iniUvs of Urifish shores Total valiio of Mackorcl lio. I "s .") Avoraijo nuukot valiio of AnuM'U'an Shoro Mackerel w u> ^ Averatie nuukot valne of Hay Mackerel I'J SO Averajie earnin«is of the op«'rative llshernien per year. .'i.")0 Averajre amount i)ai(l in Itritish p«)rts for bait, ice, and various supplii's Amount paid to ISritish tishermen for herring Amount paid to Hritish tishermen as wjij^es Amount paid in Hritish jjorts for repairs Locations trc(piente«l by American vessels for Fish Western \V.\n\\ Locations fre taking . . .notliiiif: Actual value of Mackerel in the water, before taken notliiii!; Facts as to chanjjes iu location ami mode of conductiufj American (isli- eries Have formerly been larfroly enpajjcd in Mackerelinjj in Bay St Law- rence say S years ajjo since have been seiniufj off our own slion's You lelt the Bay tishinj; liecanse we could not psvy our expenses do uut consider the Bay of 8t Laurence tishery of any value whatever can- not pay for our out tits this is the experience of all fishertneu at Swatis AWAUh Ol' TIIK HHItl'.KY ('((MMfHHION. :\w.) roiiil tliiv of M,i\ NNISTON ImIiiiiiI I'liiinnt Hliipii (U'inv (.(» ^o t<» Mir |{;iy on SliunvH ovmy vcmhoI tliiil w«Mit IIh'Iu H yiMilH U({(i IohI. iiioiicy MICIIAIOI. HTINSON Sworn iiimI HulmnilMMi Itt lirloro iho, IIiih ir> dtiy ol' Msiv IH77 (Sfiil.) V T KAhSON hiHt of ( tloui'fHtttr No. I.'«{. inj? in Bay St Liiw- )rt' our own slioivs y our expi'iKsj's ilo line whiitevtT^ can- tislieruiou at Swaus TIiIh In to rn-tiiy, Tliiir tlio nniii|iloycr Kiu'itIh of MiM^Urn^l r.an;;lit within .' iiilt'H of hIioio, not. iiKtliiti- iii^' Mii^diiU'iir IhIjiiiiIh Not, one liai id in 'I (Mi ,\v('iiit;o vaiiu* of VrNs.-JM oim'Ii i!l.'{,r»0() Avcmtii^ viiliir ( rUiillllH, Still, Miiit, «!t(5 .$L5,000 ciicli Vr.sHdl Avi'i'ii),'^ viilur of in.siininci^ 0 per Avt'iii^r viiliic of ( 'oiiMiiisHionH, iki iji'JOO rac.li Vi'fstd Avcniiici viiliio of Wliiirvi'M, l''iHlili( ihok, iVc,., for <'.iiriii^,' iiiid piickiin;, iiiriiiilin^ cxpi'ti.scH of ('IcrkH, Pi'o|»i'i(^toi's and labor on slion?. if 10,000 NiiiiiIh'I' of Vt'HHt'lM lost, Valiio ol VcsMcl.s lo.sl, including oiitlitH Viiliic of l<'i.sli IohI, Nmnltci' of Lives lost Total valuta of l*'ish tak(^ii, bcfoiii ciirin^r, Hplillin^', Halting;, ^v. \\vv (;wt .")() (;tH Totol Viilno of iMackcrol takon, before, curing, splittiii;.,') Malting, ^v. Vim per bid ijL,. Total valiu^ of I'MnIi taken wit bin tlireo miles of HritiHli sliores Total value of IVIaekeiel do Avt'infii^ niarkel valine of Anieri(!an Sliorc! jMaekerel HJ. VI. S Avcia^«' market, value of IJay Mackerel .... 11. 7. 5 Av('ra},'e eaiiiin}j.s of tlie operative liHlHU'incin jier year ijJ'JoO Avcni^'e amount paid in liriliHli portH for bait, ice, and varioii.s Hup- plit's .<( 1 .500 Yearly Aiiioiiiit paid to lirilisli fiNlieriiieii for herring AiiKtuiit paid to liritiHli H.slM'rmen an wajjeH fi'tW) Yi^arly Ainonid paid in Hritisli ports for repairs Locations fress at tliat point and coiilliic iii,v V%\s.sols to Mm; Ot'caii Itaiiks for llsli and oil" our own shores lor iMackerol iiaiii}; Sciiids <& Traiils LI<:VV1H M(;I)()NAI.I> Sworn and suhscribiMl to before me, tliis 25 day of May 1877 {Seal.) K T JJAlisON Colketor of ('iinfi>ins Dirttof (jl»)n(',('.st('i No. 137. This is to (UM'tify, That the undersigned (J Wasfj[att & (Company liav(< been enjjayed in the iisiiin^ biisinisss for tiie past Sixteen y«>}irs, at Swans Ishind Maine, and tiiat sinee tlie VVasliin^ton Treaty, ho ealled, lias lii-cii in effect, our vessels have been employed as follows: Namely Hince mm No. of Vessels employed Ten (10) M men to eaeh Vessel No. of Trips made live trips yearly each ynr No. of Trips to Hay St Lawrjuce ISOO 18(»7 1S(!8 180!) 1870 1871 1872 1873 1871 187.". 18IG 0 00 00 00 1 00 00 00 00 00 (III No. of IJarrels of Mackerel frouj Bay St Lawrence ,L.. .,, „<)() No. of Barrels of Maokerol cauf^lit within .'{ miles of shore, not iiiclinl in^j Ma^jdalene Islands None caught within three miles of Sliorc Average value of vessels each i? KHNI Averajjo value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, «!tc Jif'SM Averaj^e value of Insurance 9 per cent on Vessel iV Oiitlits Averajje value of Captains' aiul Crows' time, viz., wa^jes per mo Sii' Averaf'e value of Commissions, vS:c $22.5 to eaeJi Captain ycaiiy Averajie value of Wharves, Fish houses, &c., for curing and packiii;;, including expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore $2500 yeiiiiy Number of vessels lost Value of vessels lost, including outfits Value of Fish lost Number of Lives lost Total value of Fish taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per cwt 80 ots Total value of Mackerel taken, before curing, splitting, salting, &c., per bbl 8-'.2J Total value of Fish taken within three miles of British shores, .udtliiiig Total value of Mackerel do uotliiiig Average market value of American Shore Mackerel No Is 16 No 2 11 No 3 7.50 Average market value of Bay Mackerel " " 11 " " 7 "' " 5.-5 Average earnings of the operative fishermen per year 8--5 Average amount paid in British ports for bait, ice, and various stip- ..12011$ plies .lOOUS Amount paid to British fishermen for herring Amount paid to British fishermen as wages Amount paid to British ports for repairs Locations frequented by American vessels for Fish Cape May to Gulf of St Lawrence Locations frequented by American vessels for Mackerel Actual value of Fish in the water, before taking Notbiug Actual value of Mackerel iu the water before taken '■ AWARD OF THE KIHIIERY COMMISSION. 3211 Flirts iiH to di!iii};oH in location >itiri(;!iii thii- crit'.s Wlicii I, in tlui year ISOl boranic «'M};iij;;«'(1 in the lisliiny hiiHitu'SS, tiio l!ii\ ol St. La\vr«'n«!«MvaH (-onHidrnMl tim ix'st, lisliiiiy jinmiid I'nr iniirlt- iMcl, ii.id I Hiiut my vchscLs tluur, but tlm Imsiiu-HS was not rcninnfiativo. Ill till' spiinf,' ol" IS(»7 I (roncludtid I hail lost i'nonf;fli money tlicrc. Since lliiit t ino nont; that 1 have (iontrolliMl have (rone there (One ol whieh I owiit'il i> part \v«>nl, I think, in l take ac- kiiowledfjfinent of Deeds, A.s.signnjeiits, and Towers of Attorney, and to adiiiiiiister oath.s. Ill Testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my Fland and allixed the Hciil of the Supreme .Iiulicial Court, for said State, this Sixth day of Jiiiio, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy- Sl'VCll (Seal.) nUTSON B SAUNDl^KS Ckrk. No. 138. This is to certify, That the undersigned, composing the firm of -James Fitcli of N Lortdon Conn have been engaged in the lishing business fur the ])ast twenty years, at New London Conn and that since the Washington Treaty, so called, has been in effect, our vessels have been piiiployed as follows : No. of Vessels employed Ten. No. of Trips made Eight No. of Trips to Hay St. Lawrence none No. of liarrels of Mackerel from liay St. Lawrence none No. of Harrels of Mackerel caught within 3 miles of shore, not including Magdalene I slands none Average value of Vessels each Three Thousand Dolls Average value of Outfits, Salt, Bait, &c Two Thousand iJolls Average value of Insurance Nine per cent Average value of Captains' and Crews' time, viz., wages per mo Thirty five Dolls Average value of Commissions, &c Two Hundred Dolls Average value of Wharves, Fish-houses, &c., for curing and packing, in- cluding expenses of Clerks, Proprietors and labor on shore Twenty Thousand Dolls 821? AWARD OF THK FIHIIKRY COMMFSHION. 1 NiimluT of V«'H.sols lout one ValiUM)!' Vessj'I.s hmt, iiuiiinliiifj ()iitflt« Three Tlioiisiiutl DoIIium VllIlM^ of V\s\l lost IIO||(> NuiiiImt of Liv«'s loHt Six Total value of Kisli taken, before eiiriii};, H|>littiii<;, .salting, iSce., percwt. Total value of ISIaeUerel taken, before curing, Hplittinj;, saltiiij^, )S:(;.,|i(I>1. Xdial value of Fish taken within three miles of Itritish shores... .none Iota! value of Maitkerel t> the Bay of Fundy in some cases hut it has been unprofitable »Si wt» liii.e discontinued it &, confine our Fisliiii;; to the Banks outside of any National Jurisdiction and to our own siiorij II A BROWN .^' CO Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 17th day of May 1877 (Seal.) C. G. SISTAlfK Notary Public No. 14L Solemn Declaration of William Harvey concerning the Fisheries in Auun can Canadian }y''aters I William Harvey reside at Aulds Cove Strait of Canso My name is William Harvey am fifty four years of age have been engaged fishing since I was twelve Years old, have been employed from Eighteen to twenty Seasons in American Vessels tisliing for Cotl iiml JMackerel in the Gulf of St Lawrence and on the Atlantic Coast of British America and two Seasons on the United States Coast. 1 have j often tished alongside of an American Mackerel fishing fleet wlieii em ployed in Provincial fishing Vessels, the Catch of Mackerel i)y Colo nial Mackerel fishing vessels is not at all lessened on account of mi | American fleet being alongside of them the main reason fortliatisi think is that more bait is thrown out Fully one half of the Crews of American fishing Schooners visiting the flsiiing grounds of Dominion of Canada are residents and subjects of the Dominion of Canada In case they are employed on Shares tlifirl Monthly Wages will average from thirty to thirty five Dollars per Moiitli many get for the trip lasting for about three Months from one imii(b'eii[ and twenty to One hundred and fifty Dollars. They the American tishermen very seldom make use of our shore tor | Curing their fish or drying Nets. ON. Thousand Dollain Twenty Five ting, &(!., l>t'r cwt j;, salting, i'vi'., \m 11 shores None I & Fifty Dollars , iiiitl various siiii o Ilundretl Dollurs Sj Western liaiiks :erel Notliiii;; I Nothiii;; jting American lUli nt & Cod Fishms in some cases but it contlne our Fishing; ml to our own shorts A BKOWN & CO IV of May 1.STT h G. SISTAIIE Xotary PuMk AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. 3215 he Fisheries in Anwi Canso s of ago have been been enii)loyee Atlantic Cosist of tates Coast. I liave shing lleet when em- >f Mackerel by Colo n\ on accoujit ot lui u reason for that is I ig Schooners visitins I e'sidents and suhjects ]o\ei\ on Shares thi-ir ve Dollars per Moutli ] hs frouj o!ie huiuhed use of our shore for I Tlie Mackerel flsiiiug during tlie hist four or (he Years lias very much fallen oil", during that tinic tlie ^vveiage Catch has at most only Iteen iilioiit one half of what it was ten or twelvt^ Years ago There is iio lioat tisiiiiigdoiie by the Ameri(!aiis worth meiitioniiij; on these Shores I have seen (XM-asioiially a few American vess«'Is the bejiinning of ,Inne arrive ;,tthe tisliing grounds but the great bculy or heft of them don't arrive until .luly And I William Harvey albresaid do solemnly declare that I consci- entiously declare that the Statements made in the foregoing' declaration ari' tnu' and 1 make this Solemn declaration by virtue of the Ac^t |tassed in the .'{7th Year of Her Majestys Heign entitled an Act for the Suppres- sion of Vtduntary and Extrajudicial Oaths Aulds Cove, Nova Scotia June 11. 1877 WILLIAM HAKVKY lu prefceuce of JAMES G. McKFEN Justice of the Peace. No. 142. Donald McFachren being duly sworn, says. My name is Donald McFachren 1 am fifty two years old I am a r.ritish Subject reside at New Town Strait of Canso. have since Figh- teiMi hundred and fifty been employed as a fisherman every Season with the Exception of two on board of American fishing Schooners, about ton or twelve summers I was shipped in the United States, the Vessels or Schooners in which I was employed fished for Mackerel and Cod on the Coast of Prin«',e Edward Island. Cape Breton New Brunswick Frov- vince of (Quebec and the Magdalen Islands We often (it-lied alongside of Colonial Vessels the American fleet being alongside of them did not interfere with the Catch of Mackerel or Cod by Colonial Vessels, on the Contrary, on account of the great quantity of bait thrown out by the American fishermen the Mackerel stay longer on the surface of the Water and bite better than they do when Colonial Vessels are alone because the latter throw out much smaller quantity of bait, therefore the Colonial Vessels catch more Mackerel when alongside of an Amer- ican tieet, the Colonial Vessels are in the habit of following the Amer- ican Vessels on the tisliing grounds for the reasons stated during the lust two Seasons the Americans have visited the <' lonial Waters in much smaller numbers than formerly becanse there own fishing jjronnds have become very productive that is they have always been very good but of late years they Americans have got into the habit of Seine fish- ing which they may use in deep water and is the most proUtable way of catching Mackerel. Mackerel is found in great abundance in deep Water on the American Coast. Independent of the number of American Hshing Vessels there will per- liaps be a series of year when Mackerel will appear in great quantities on some Shores, then almost disappear from tliese Coasts for another Series of Years or Seasons and thereupon reapjiear in as jjreat (piantities iisever, the causes for that nniy be many but are not known. Mackerel ;ire very unceitain in their movements During the last three years the average number of American fishing [Vessels in the entire Atlantic Provincial Waters excepting those of New- foundland have been about One hundred and fifty Sails this is, that Num- ber was engaged in Mackerel fishing during the last year there ware only aliout Seventy five Sail of American Mackerel tishermen in the fishing grouuds just mentioned during the five Years previous to the last :^^^r,-. '•■ti^^;,^t*. M.\ P Id hi*? ^• i^*f#i*pi 32 IG AWARD OF THE FISHKRY COMMIHHION. ■Ill III I tlin»o YourH the avcnim^ iiiiiiiImm' of Aiiu'iiniii .Markru'l llsliiim NCsncIm \^-iiH within, tlio NiiiiK^ \Viitn-M thiit I ImvivJiiNt iiiimmmI l>i'hv«>i*ii lour atid (Ivo liiiiiilrcil. Tli4> )iv(M'ii;;«' 10111111^0 of iiii Aiiicrii^aii llsliiii); W-rsnA Ih about S('V(>nt,v flvi^ Toiin (vt>nt,v llvi^ Tons would Im> Ioi- another onlllt rcrcivt'd in tln^ I'loviiicfH on pi'occtMlin^ a^ain to tin* ll.shiti); )ri'onnils al'icr havin}; lanilcii lirr Lm^ in the I'rovint^ial Ports tor t'('slii|>in(Mii butJlici avi'ia^'oaniount. •'X|)<'iiiln| by lilt'. Aincric^an tlsliin;; tl«>t>l in Mih I'roviiuM's would he about tlnvf Iiuiuire*! Dollars lor ICa<;h Vessel piu' season independent of that poriiitii ol'tli(> lleet wlii(;h land their (1ar({oes in the Provinces atul incur l:ir},'i> outlays in rellttiiif; I'or ainUher trip HalnuMi eaii^rjit by I'olouial llsheruuui the (Uiited States are the only Market, the saiiii! may be said of fat ilerrin^Mlurin;^' the last tew years. Ibrmurly a Ninall proporti«Hi of them went to (juebet; and Montreal The AmerieauH do not us(> the Ooast of the Hiitish Provinces except Newtbiiiidland liu* drying Net, or Curing; lish Aliout two tluMisand Provincial tisliernuin have Ixten employed |ir Season during the last ten Years on board American lishiui; Vessels Among these are about live hundred from Prince Kdwards Islatal iln others to the great^T extent from Nova Scotia The presence of Anu'rican lishernu'.n on our (Coasts has in my Opinion been a great advantage to the people of the Provinces And 1 Donald McKacliren aforesaid do solemnly declare on Oath tliat I conscientiously believe that the Htatements made in the fore<;()iiig declaratiuii are true, so huli> me God J)ONALD McEACllKUN CONSULATK OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA At Piotoa, Nova Scotia, Port Hastings Ageiuiy June 9th. 1877 I hereby certify that the foregoing and above Allldavit was the] first part of the Year Codlishiug and the latter part Mackerelint;. Ij went generally to the Gi and Banks Western Banks and GultOt'St Lawrence for Codfish and to the Gulf of St Lawrence and alonj; the American Shore for Mackerel. 1 went in American fishing Vessels to the Georges Banks for Codfish Seven Winters 11 !< N. AWAKU OF THK FISHKUY COMMIM.SION. 3217 «l lishiiin N't'sscls ictwt'i'li tiMii aiiil II llsliinn Vfsscl ij{ VeHSt'ls williiii i>(l Hi/.od Vt'SHcl of 1 ill tliti IMov lines m lanl'>.Vt'inion es eclaroon Oatli that lo in the ion'fjtiiiig [) MoKACUKKN OF AMKRU'A i;y Jimo 9th. 1877 .avit was ilnlv made ove nanR'»l Donald ore me by him ilie MALMllOS Consul at i'tolou. mj the Fisheries i .rt Mulffravo on the by oecnpatiou Am ten years ohl Iw^e \ ir Vessels after Cod- Seasons in Coh)iiiii!| Vessels four Season I 'Is. I used to j:o the lart Mackereliit},'. I jiiks and GuU ot jst ATence and aloiigthe ,n fishing Vessels to Mackerel first appear in tlie Spring ahont tlie llrst of April off the AiiH'iieaii Coast near < 'ape Henrv wliere they are ;;eiierally ri(!an lisheriii(>ri generally (MxiinieiK^e taking Ma(;kerel in the (}iilf of St Lawreiu'e or other parts «>f the Atlantic ('oast of Mritish Nurtli Ameri<'a aliont the tt^ith of .Inne andeontinne tlshiii^; nntil ahont the first of No vein her More than half the Mackerel cani;ht alont^the Coasts of Itritish North Aiiieri(!a diiriiit; the last ten VeaiH hy both <'olonial and American tlsh- lufi N't'sselH were taken outside of three Miles from the Shore Ahont ten Years nao there were upwards of three hiindrud American fishing Vessels passed through the Strait of (^anso into the (inlf of St. Lawrence every season for the purpo.se of CatithiiiK Mackerel & Cod- fish five years ago there probably two linndred vessels Since tliat time the number has been decreasing; until last year wiien there only about Seventy Sail of .American fishing Vessels in the (Jnlf of St Law- reiu!»i The average si/e of American fishing Vessels is about Seventy Tons. such a Ve.ssel when new would cost to build and rig about Si.K to seven thousand Dollars and a vessel of the same would cost to build and rig ia tiiu Provinces about three thousand to four thousand Dollars The only fish the American catch inshore on the Atlantic Colonial Coasts are Mackerel The most of the Americ in .Mackerel fishermen now Catch Mackerel on their own coast only 1 believe that the right to ti.sh on the Ameri(;aii Coast would be as val- uable to the people of the British Provinces as the Colonial fisheries to Americans provided our people had as good vessels and fitted them out as well and had as much enteri>rise as the AmeritMiis The presence of American fishermen in the Provinces is of great pecuniary gain and ad- vantage to our ]ieople in consequence of said fishermen purchasing ia our Ports large supplies of Provisions Bait Salt and fre.sh Barrels Salt Wood Ice anil all kinds of fishermen's su|)plies and occasionally making repairs to their Vessels reipiiring Cables Anchors Canvas Cordage S|»ars ike. &c From my experience I believe that the average expendi- ture of American fishing Vessels in the British Provinces duwng the whole season would be upwards of Seven hundred Dollars Tlie American fishermen make little or no u.se of the privilege of cur- ing their fish and drying their nets on the Coast of the i*rovince Tlie bait used for Catching Mackerel comes from the United States consists of Pogies and Clams and is taken almost entirely on the Amer- ican (Joast Colonial fishing Vessels use the .same kind of bait and ob- tain it from the United States, J'ogies are taken nearly altogether in Seines and within three miles of the land I was born in the Strait of Can.so and am a British Subject Ami I Kichard Jackman aforesaid do Solemnly declare that I con- .scieiitionsly believe that the Statements made by me in the fort'going declaration are true and I make this Solemn dectlaration by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th Year of Her Maje.stys Keign entitled an Ace for the Suppression of A'oluntary and Extra judicial Oaths KICllABD JACKMAN 202 F -^ - Xf. ■'^r^ **%^i U...!*?! . <^m l*tk 1 . ti-m >^\m-*!>t^'TM»' 3218 A\VAUI» OF TIIK FIHHKKY COMMIHNIoN. I IIm^ iiii(U'rHi|;n(Ml Notiiry Public Do licn^by Oertify that on tlif Iith iliiy otMiiiu) 1H77 iicrMiiiallv iippfUHMl Ik'Ioiimiio tlio iil>ov«^ iiuiiumI \Uv\t. anl iluckiiiuti iiihI then anil tlit>r« iiin \h TIioiiuis CIuih Smith, am about 55 yoarn ol«l, have alwiirn rcNiueil Oh I'ort Hood iHlaiid, 1 have bi'iMi tMif;aK<'d in thhing Nince 1 wan a boy, have never Nailed on American tiHhin(;HchoonerH — my llMliin^r luiH almoHt excluNively boat tMimn between and alont; the ('oastN of < 'ape Breton vSc I'r. Kdwr iHland the American tluhermen have come Ichs imh\ leHH during the laHt •') yearH to thcHe tlMJiint; groundH — I am convinccil that the preMence of Am. tlNhing HchoonerM haH pecuniarily Ki<'>itly benettted the people of this I'rovince and that the American iMnu^ fleet haH never iuterfereation, am now fifty years of Age, am a British Subject, my home has always been iu Nova Scotia where I was born, I have been thirty seven Summer.s tish ing, thirty two Summers of which, 1 was fishing in American Vessels and five Summers iu Colonial Vessels The first few Years I went fishing in American Vessels, was for Cod- fish, in the Gulf of St Lawrence, always outside of three miles from AWARD OF rilK KINIIKUY (.'OMMlMHIOiV. 1)2 Id liiit oil t)i«> 1 1th vvi iiuiiitMl Uii'li- tlU' «bu\f aiitk f OHU'-r lit I'ml I.KKKN Xotary I'lililir ticeniimj Jinhnin nUI, have alwiiT'* I tinhiiii; nIiic« 1 iierH— my \M>'\H lelvOUHtMon'aiH' fcve come Iohs and -I am conviiicfd liuuiarily umitly VmericHii M\'n\^ catch of Colonial [ believe that the Ijeir throwing,' out mackerel to thiw iiterferetl with l>y eby aud by other le mackerel bi'gaii I, food aK when the 10 years apo and lit there arc now rels caught. The lackerel ttshing i» their tlsh our our :ound8. lluiKli'ttl ,roduce were Holtl le coiuinK herein leiice but I am not ,111 average diiriui; "xJMAS SMITH MALMROS U. S. Comxl Fisherii'H in Vtm- Cove oil the West ccupation, am now as always been m iveu Summers tish- American Vessels pssels, was for Cod- 3f three miles from nhdrf. tlit'ti I went llNhiii^ for Muckcifl in Ariicrican \'«>smi>]m, Into tho (liilt of Ht Lawreiire, the luHt thri'c ycaiH 1 have Im-cii (•nt;a((ed Ht'iniri^ Mitrkcie) on the American ('oant in Cnittd Statfs N'cnhcIs, iititl ftuind Miirkfiel pleiitiliil, 1 was llNhiii){ on SlniicM as h hand on lM)ard, the (.'(•nerai length of the (IshiiiK Season in al>ont live tnontlis. the ilrst tttniiiMcr 1 was Seiiiiii^; Mackerel, I chsired two hundred and tifteen Dol- jiirH, the second season three hundred and Sixty two Dollars, and the iiittt season two hundred and sixty DollaiH, avcrauiiiK Jlarh scasmi two liiiiidted and Seventy nine Dollars or llfty live Dollars pr Month clear ^t' hoarding The bait used for oatchiiiK Mackerel comes from tin- United States, coiisists of Potties or Menhaden and Clams, and is taken almost entirely iiloiii; the Ameri(;an (.'oast, Colonial tlshiii;; vess«'ls use the same kind of bait as American tishinp vessels, and obtain it from the United States, Tories are taken lu-aily altogether in Seines and within three Miles of the laiiil. Ten to twelve Years ago about three hundred American llshing ves- dels frequented the Gulf of St hawreiKte after Ma(!kerel, and generally ohtained good fares, taking from one to three fares each season, and frequently landing their tirst and second trips or tares in the Strait of I'aiiHo, or ill Prince Kdwards Island for reshipment to the United States, by Steamer or Sailing Vessel, Mackerel have been getting scarcer in the (iiilf of St. Lawrence every Year during the last four or (Ive Years, The American Mackerel llshermeii purchase large(|uantities of Supplier in the Provinces, such as Salt, Barrels, Ihiit, ('lothing, provisions, Wood, Siimll Stores, and all kinds of tishing supiilies, and occasiotially require large outlays in repairs to their vessels, the average expenditure by the Ameri(;an Mackerel tisheruu'ti in the British Provinces during the Itnxbictive seasons would I have no doubt be uiiward of Seven hundred Dollars each pr Season which would in the aggregate amount to two hundred and ten thousand Dollars (i^L'lO.O(K)) from the iMackerel fleet |ir Heason The Codflshing fleet of American vessels also purchase supplies largely in the I'lovincessuch as Ice, fresh Herring and Mac^kerel for baiting their vessels. Clothing, Wood, provisions, small Stores iVc with occasional repairs, the average expenditure of the Codllshing fleet would be al)OUt three hundred and fifty Dollars to fonr huiulred for each vessel pr sea- son, there are about One hundred Aineri(!an Codllshing Vessels calling and obtaining Supplies in the Strait of Canso. I cannot give an opin- ion of the aiuouiM; of Supplies they purchase in other ports of the British I'roviiices, The entire fleet of American fishing Vessels give employment on Inmnl their vessels to a great many of the people of tltiH Province, I should say that during the last ten Years on an average that six to Seven huiulred of our men found employment on board of American tishing Vessels yearly The presence of American fishermeu in our I'orts is of great pecuniary gain to our people, in consequence of the large Auiountts of Supplies thej' purchase in our Ports, and the great liumber of our Men employed in American fishing Vessels The American fishermen make very little use of the privilege of cur- iii}r fish and drying nets &c on our shores, When Mackerel were plentiful in the Culf of St. Lawrence, they were taken nearly all over the Gulf, Wherever bait was thrown ^Mackerel woulil generally appear on the surface, and more Mackerel were taken outside than inside three Miles from the Shore 1 believe that the right to fish on the American Coast would be as 0 ^t ihiSk.'i. •^m^-i 3220 AWARD OK TIIK KIHIIKKY COMMISSION. I I Viiliiablt^ to Iho Colonial l)Mlifriiii>iMiM tlif ('nloiilnl ilMli«'ri<ti uiiiiN, |)rovlili>«l our p4>o|>l<> IumI nn t(oot| v«>ms«>'<< ah wril flttctl ami li;til m liiiicli Citpital ami «'iitfi|iriNi> aH tlif AimTiniiiN AimI I ANlit'trv Stialiiiii ator«*4:iit| tlo Molfiiinlv «l«>rlan> that I roti HrifiitioiiNl.v iM'lit'Vi* that lh(> •SlatiMiiriitN maih* in lh«< l'oi'i>i;oinu[ ilt'rjiirii lion air lini^ ami I nniki^ thiH ilt'claiation l),v vii'lm> of ihf Ad |).isf4<>i| in till' .'17th. Vfar ol Iter MaJi'NtvH Hi'i^n I'ltititird an Art loi tin* »ii|i luvNHioii ul voliiiiiarv ami cxtia jtirtil'v that on thf \H\\ day of .liini* 1S77 iiIh»vi< naiii<>i| KiM'i'y Htrahan |H>i'Moiiall.\ apixMirrd liotoif nic ami iiiaih> ami MiilisriilMMl tint toi'c^oin^ 8(»U'iiin l>('(:luralit)ii Am wiinoHS in> liaiitl «S: Hi>al ol Ui tUw (Hnil.) .lAMKS Kan to ^low up — iliitiii); tho hi^t In yeai'H tlu^ iiiiKtkiM'idH liavo niiuili lt*ss ri'i'ipHMitcil tlu^Oiilf of iSt liawit'iici' thi'ir nuniluM- Iiiin iiiiich dccri'aNcd and dutiii); thu hiHt .'{y«>arH th<« cali;!! of uiac.kort'l Iuin been aInioHt a failure — We hardly ever nee thu Aiiicri' uuHH IIhIi in lioatH. I don't think the uateli of mackerel in these waters liUH deereased on accrount of the tisliiiiK uf the Aiiierit^in llHlieriiiiMi, The AmericaiiH aH far as 1 know never laiitl of the adjaeent Hhores to cure IIhIi and but Heldoin to dry netH — eodihhiiiK Ih not carried on by the AmeriiuiiiH within '^ niileH trom Nhore or at leitHt extremely seldom; I have never been employed as a tiHherman on Ameriitaii veNNeh— Tlie AmerieaiiH while the eatches were f^ood put cotiHideraldu money iiiio circulation in thlH neijfhbourhood but I have nu idea of the mkk> <'f>/tti! amount or of the average expenditure of a Hingh) vesHel. I Hoieiniily declare that the above statement of facts is correct and make this dm- hiratioii conscientiously believing that said facts aietrue and under the act of ^{7 Victoria entitled an Act for the suppression of voluntary iiiul extra judicial oaths. ^ K SMITH Tort Hood Island June 7 1877 Declaration made and subscribed before No. 147. OSCAR MALMKOS U, *V Consul iSoh'mn Ih'cUxrniUm by Hugh Cameron conccrnUui the FislDfies in ('iim- (lian tl Amerit'itn Wafers made at Port llaHtimjn Strait of Canso X >S. this iith (lay of June 1S77 Hugh Cameron says that he resides at New Town on the East sidcoi the Strait of Canso, am a British siil»ject tiftytwo Years old, aiu ac quainted with the American and Canadian Atlantic Sea Fisheries. For the last three years there has been more or less of a failure in tlit> Catch of Codfish Mackerel and Herring in the Waters of the (lull ol AWAKK OK TIIK. KIHIIKKY fOMMIHHlO.V. 3221 IM'K'H to AiiK'li UmI illltl hiul .{■>, tro tliKt I <'iMi t'UoInu «l«'rliirii |||»» Aft p.liHt'll ict till' the »ii|> Y STIfAHAN ||llOV«< IIIIIIIImI > IIIkI HIlltHt'llllfll MrKKKN Suhity I'lihliv Iiin«^ Till, 1H77. IhIhiiiI. InIiiikI loUowiin luting tiM' last HI ill" t»l' 8t LllWKMUf ; ilyciiiH tln< «'llttll or HM'. tliw Anit'ii ill ill tlu*MU Wlltl'IS MMitniil IIkIu'IIIU'II. luljiu'ciit Hliorcs to not canic»l on by xtreiiu'ly «iiliii; U'iiii veHHolH— The ^riitilo rnoiuw ii>t" of the ttKRi^'K"'" rtst'l. I soUMiiiily ml iiiiikc tliirttlf: true aii«l umU'r llie o\' volmitiiiy iiml >' iSMITU MALMUOS U. »S Consul Fishii-ifH ill <''""'■ trait of Canao S. -S. onthoEast siileoi Years ohl, am ac Sea Fisheries. ss of a failure ill tlif Iters of the ilult ot S!. Liiureiiee rioCoilllsh iiieCauKht iiiNit|i< the WalerNofthe Athitilli! Sill < "oai^t ol the htiiiiliiloii of ( 'iiiiihIu e\n'|»| in t he ( lull ol St. I.iinrelieo the tiiMlliK nit' III Ihf Cateli ol Coillisli Iiuh hreii iilioiit iti the rollowiiii; |iro|)oilloii, lliiit \\hlle It How lakes a \ eMsrl ol Sl\ly Tons to ealeli a tlioiiMaini (^niiith> oi ( 'oiIIIhIi aiioiit ten UCekH it woiiltl take the .saine VfHNet ahont I'liuht Weeks toOitlain the same <|naiilil> ol lish ten searn i)){o, aliont twenty VeaiMa^oil woiihl take six WerkN, anil alntiit thirty M'UtH »U'> itliont ll\e WeekH to Oldaiu tlie Maine )|uanlity ot lish in tho <«iiine Ml/.e«o tliiiils at any lale fioin what it was lu-loie thai time Itiur M'liiH atfo tl\i>yeiuH a^o a vcNNel ilniin^ the Heuson woiilil take in a htro inula half or rarKoanil half, ten .Neair* auo a ve>sel uoiilil take in iiImm.I two CaruoeN or lares alioiit twenty Years a^'o alioiit three Car- Koe.s or tares 1 have lieeii emjtloyed as a llsherinaii on lioai«l of Anierieaii lisliinif Vessels ever siiiee I was ICiyhleeii Years old withthe llxeeptioimf Ihreo Sciisoiis when I did not (;o liHliin^. and another Season that I was on lioiiid a ('tdonial tlshin^ Vessel I hav«Mie\er known .\merieaii lisiiinj^ \i>NMels. eiiriii); lish or dryiii); their Nets on slnne. lOxeept those ves- sfJH taking; lierrinus at the Ma^dalens Islands wh«>re they dry Iheir Seines on Shore The Anierieunsdo not use the inshore tlsheries at all ti»r the CiilehiiiK ol Oodllsli Tln^ie i.s more iniickerel eaii;;ht oiitsido the three Mih* limit than insidt', as near as 1 eaii jiid;;e about two thirdn ot ail .Miiekerel eaiiKlit liy Amerieaiis are caught from three to six Miles Iroiii Shore Mai^kerel llshiin.' now Itejj;iiiH olV the Const of Xew .Iirsey. flsliinff Vessels follttw the lish in their run lOastward to the Stateof SlaiiH\and theiiei^ to the (Coasts of the llritisli I'rovinees alioiil from two thirds to Jiree *|iiaiters (d' the inaekerel remain during' their run North lOastwaril I'loin New .lersey to the (Inlf of St. I.awrenee over thri-e Milen from Shiii'e, opposite the Southern Coast oi Nova Seotia only a \ery small poitioii of the .Maidiertd duriiiu their course iOastward eome nearer to the shore than six Mil(>s for the piirpo.se of playing' diirinj; tine Weather Diirlii;; the Seasons when .Maekerel and Codllsh were plenty there were in the (Jour.se of the Season in thedulf of St Lawreiiee alxiut four Imiiilred Ameriean Maekerel tlshin^ \'e.ssels uikI about two hundred ami tilly to three hiin«lred Ameriean (Jodlishin^; V'es.sels a(u-,ordin^ to lireseiit measureiMent the tonnaye of Aineriean lishiiiy Nessel.s relereil to were from thirty to ninety Tons the averat;e would bo about (llty livo to lifty Kiyht Tons — for an averaued .si/eil N'essel for Codlishinjf the number of the Crew would be about ten. and the number of Crew I'oi a Maekerel Catcher would be sixteen and the Crew of a \'es.sel of ;iveni;je size after llerrinj^'s would be about six hands For about ten Years I shipped on board Ameriean llshiii^^ N'e.s.sels in the United States jjenorally during the inontli of April and eontinuetl ill tliem until the clo.se of the sea.son abinit the 1st of November ami the other Sea.son8 1 shipped in the American V essels at the Strait of Caiiso. duriiifj the.se Seasons the.se Vessels were supplied in the Sev- eral Ports of the Hritish I'rovinees from Yarmouth all the way to i'ort Daniel in the Hay Chelour with all kinds of ontlits such as Provisions Salt Uarrels IJait ieo Clothin{j small Stores and oc'casionally with Kig- giuK Canvas Anchors and repairs to ves.sels spar booms «.S:c. t.*tc From what I have seen and heard during my Experience 1 should think that the average expenditure of Ameriean fishing ve.ssels in the British Proviuces during the whole Season would be upwards of Seven .;■ *-r^ ^m^^^ utt* r ' 111 ^ ^^M JSfe ■az p 3222 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. liniulred Dollars out of every hundred Vessels frequenting tbe Gtilf of at Laurence Hshing about Seven or Eight would require more or less repairs the proper proportion of which is included in u}' Estitnato lu my opinion the coining of Ainericiin fishing Vessels to our ^Iioros has no influence whatever in lessening the Catch of Mackerel of the Colonial fishing Vessels , The difference in fitting out and furnishing for a fishing Voyago an American Vessel as compared with a Colonial fishing Vessel would he about twenty five pr Cent, the American Vessel costing that much more thaD the other I believe that the right to fish on the American Coast would l)p as valuable to the people of the British Provinces as the Colonial fislu'iies are to the Americans provided our people had as good Vessels and fitted them out as well and had as much enterprise as the Americans. And I Hugh Cameron aforesaid do solemnly declare that I consciin- tiously believe that the statements made in the foregoing declaration are true and I make this declaration by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th Year of Her INlajestys Keign entitled an act for the suppression of Voluntary and Extra .Judicial Oaths HUGO CAMERON In presenre of : ) OSCAR MALMROS [ U. S. Consul ) TOET IlASTINGS NoVA SCOTIA June 7th 1877 Personally come and appeared before me the subscribing .Justice of the Peace for the County|of Inverness, Hugh Cameron of New Town who. McKEEN nsticeofthe Peace oncerning Cumdkn Bogs Cape Breton,! ■ith the exception ot m Board American irtb America i e the ter Massachusetts- 1^ engaged in Mack- fee Edwards Island, llackerel in the Gulf ist of British North ■ until about the 1st vVeeks iu length, iigsvde of an Amen int of the American fvesselsof the same 1 per Cent more than Vter more than m m Le on the Atlantic [American Mackerel last only, there were AWARD OP THE FLSHERY COMMISSION. 3223 only about thirty sail of American Mackerel fishermen in the Gulf of St. Laurence last season and the Gulf of St. Laurence comprises about all tlie Mackerel tishing grounds 1 Itelieve that the right to flsh on the American Coast would bo as vftiiiiible to the people of the British Provinces as the Colonial fisheries to Americans provided our people had us good Vessels and fitted them out as well and had as much enterprise as the Americans Th« Mackerel fishery in the Gulf of St. Laurence has been much less productive during the last six or Seven Years than formerly, formerly and until about ten years ago from two hundred to two hundred and tifty American V^essels for Mackerel used to frequent the Gulf of St Laurence and obtain fair average Cargoes of Mackerel wliile in the sea- son of 187(5 only about thirty Mackerel fishing Vessels came into the (luit and the greater i)art of these made broken voyages The presence of American fishermen in the Provinces is of great pe- cuniary benefit to our people For niany years past little or no use has been made of the privilege of curing fish and drying Nets on our Shores by the American fisher- men During the seasons when the Mackerel fisheries were productive as they were ten years ago the American fishermen would get full Cargo within about six Weeks they would then deposit or store at this or neighbor- ing points on the Strait of Causo to be reshipped to the United States while they would return once or twice more to the fishing grounds to obtain further Cargo during such a season the average Expenditure of a Midling sized Schooner (say 70 Tons) in the Provinces would be about In consequence of the lesser productiveness of the Mackerel fisheries during the last six or seven Years the American fishing Vessels have seldom taken over one Cargo of Mackerel in the season and frequently Lave not been half filled and consequently the Expenditures iu the Provinces have been proportiouably reduced, very few Mackerel having been landed for reshipment to the United States I am and always have been a British subject residing in the Province of Nova Scotia And I James Johnson aforesaid do solemnly declare that I conscien- tiously believe that the facts contained in the foregoing declaration are tine and I make this declaration by virtue of the Act passed in the .'?7th Year of Her Majesty's Keign Entitled an Act for the suppression of voluntary and Extra Judicial Oaths. JAMES JOHNSON. Port Hastings Nova Scotia > June 5th 1877 ) I hereby Certify that on the 5th day of June 1877 the above named James Johnson personally appeared before me and made and Subscribed the foregoing Solemn Declaration. As Witness my hand and Seal of Office. (Seal.) JAMES G. McKEEN Notary Public No. 149. Sokmn Dcchiration by Edward Fox concerning the Fisheriea in Canadian d: American Waters Edward Fox says that he resides at Fox Pond on the East side of the Strait of Causo, am a British subject twenty Eight Yeais old, have fol- ■J-*ip .'ijjgil;" 3224 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ifi lowed the fishing business for twelve Years, always in American fisliitijr vessels with the Kxal as the manager of the l)usine.ss of Hrst Mv. Williatii K, Gardener of this place and afterwards of the '* Lonisburjf Snpply Com. pany " to which Mr. Gardener transferred or sold his said business— that said business from 18((.'{ up to the present time has been in the lial)it ot supplying; American fishing vessels calling at this Port, one half ot tliem about being supplied by the above business in which I was and iiin cm. ployed and one half by Mr Wm. II. McAlpine of this place— tiiat the number of American tishing vessels (;alling here has averaged (liiriiijr the last 5 or 0 years at least one hundred, one half of them codlishin^r the other half herring fishing vessels — that the average expenditure per vessel per season during said period has been about f 25, perhaps a little more, at this port — that the American fishing vessels are in the habit of calling at dillerent ports of the Maritime rrovinces before they call aud after they have called at this port and of buying supplies at all or most of the Ports where they call — that the supplies purchased by them at our Port consist in ice, bait, small stores, beef, mutton and occaKioiially iu other items to a small extent — that 1 think that the presence of Ameri- can fishermen on our coasts a great pecuniary advantage to the peojilo thereof i. e. of the Provinces while I am not aware that it, that is the presence of American fishermen on our coasts is in any repect iiijuriuiiit to the interests of the Provinces, and I make tliis solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th year of Her Majesty's reign entitled an Act fur the suppression of voluntary and extrajudicial oaths. Louisburg C. B. July 17th 1877. JOSEPH TOWNSKNl) United States Consulate at Pictou, Nova Scotia Louisburg C. B. July 17th 1877 I hereby certify that at said Louisburg on this 20th day of July 187" the above named Joseph Towusend made and subscribed before me the tbregoing Solemn Declaration Attested: OSCAR MALMROS U. S. Consul No. 152. I, James Peoples of Pirate Cove, Guysboro County do solemnly de clare : that I have been a fisherman for the last 33 years I have been employed during that time as well on American as on Nova Scotia fish ing vessels, mostly on American vessels prosecuting the Mackerel fish- ery in the Gulf of St Lawrence, for the last 5 or 6 years I should have said I have not been employed in fishing — according to my experieuce American fishing vessels make no use or but very little use of the privi lege of drying their nets on the Coasts of the Dominion of Canada and do not at all cure their fish on these coasts — I do not think that Provincial fishermen catch less fish on account of having a fleet of American vessels fishing along side of them I rather think the Provincial fishermen catcli more fish by fishing alongside of an American fleet because the quantity of bait thrown keeps the fish on the surface of the water — I have been in American fishing vessels prosecuting the fishery in the Gulf of St Law rence that have spent from 1300 to 1500 dollars per season in the Provinces in case they had to refit after landing their first catch for re shipmeut AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3227 to the States — I wont thi.s spring employed u8 cooper in an Auierioan tinliinK schoouer •' Stftfjawa" from (llonceNtor catcliintf herring at the Muiitdiili'ii l^landH and I know that her bill of expenses at Pirate Cove iiiiiounted to about ^M)i) ,"„"„ —during the last 0 or 7 years the mackerel tisliery lias much fallen olt— I think that about one half only of the iimckcri'l that were caught from 10 to 12 years ago have been caught diiriii},' tlid last 5 years — the last -* years the, mackerel fishery was a pretty l>iid failure — I know that very few if any vessel caught enough ti^b l<> make more than one trip — I know that the AmeriiMii tishiug vi'MSols call at a great many I'orts all along the coasts of the Domiuiou and expend much money in these Ports, formerly Yankee money was about all the money we saw — the presence of American fishermen on the Coasts of these provinces has been a great help to the people of the Provinces — they were in the habit of buying socks, mittens, all kinds of vegetables, mutton beef, store goods and supplies of all kind, their pres- ence was certainly no injury to our people in any respect ; I do not think tliat much tlshing will diu)iiiish the llsh that annually visit the tishing grounds — I rather tlunk that feeding them by throwing out much bait attracts them — seine tishing nuvy injure the fisheries, but the real reason why in some years mackerel are plentiful and in other years scarce Is not known, I think that more than one half of the crew of American fishing vessels are natives and residents of the Canadian Provinces ; and I make this solemn declaration conscieutiously believing the same tobe true and by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th year of Her Majesty's reign entitled "An Act for the suppression of voluntary and extrajudicial oaths. JAMES PEEPLES Dated Pirate Cove July 20th, 1877. United States Consulate at Pictou N. S. Pirate Cove July 20th, 1877. I hereby certify th*t on this 20th day of July 1877 the above named James Peeples before me, at said Pirate Cove voluntarily made and subscribed the foregoing Solemn Declaration. Attested : OSCAR MALMROS, U. 8. Coimtl. No. 153. I, Samuel Peeples of Pirate Cove, Guysboro County do solemnly de- clare : that I have been for over 30 years a fisherman I have been nearly every summer been engaged on American fishing vessels fitihing I in the Gulf of St Lawrv^nce, during the spring and fall I have been en- gaged in boat fishing on my own account — during the last 8 or 9 years the mackerel fishery has much fallen off — during the last 6 years the catch has not averaged more than ^ of what it was 10 or 15 years ago I and (luring the last two years it has been almost a total failure — I do I not think that Provincial fishermen catch any the less fish ou account j of fishing alongside of an American mackerel fishing fleet on the con- jtrary Ithink their catch is then greater ; I have often seen Provincial fishermen in their boats come out to fish alongside of the American fleet Uecause they would catch a greater quantity by following the fleet than they would by remaining in-shore — American fishermen make but little Me of the coasts of these Provinces for drying nets and none for curing fish— I know that American fishermen call at a great many ports of tbd Canadian Provinces and that they buy more or less at every port where they call} they buy beef, mutton, all kinds of vegetables, store goods ^f 'i*^i\^*^- mx^ 3228 AWARD OK THE FIHilKRY COMMIHHION. hi' of nil (l(>HN|Hiii nIoMi. inittiMistS: hovUh tS^i; nut\ I iitii of.,,, 0|>itiinii that on acnMiiit «it' tlit* tii<»iM\v Mi«\v h|m'ihI tlM\v liuvw vim.v \mu- rially lu'iicllttoil tlio people of tlicHo ri'(»viticoM wliiUi 1 am not, iiwiin that thiiir pn>M4>nco on tin' (MiaNtN of thii Dominion lias in any rcsiH-n lu'iMi in,iiit'i the last 21 summers 1 have always been ennajje«l as one of the crew of American tishintj vcssHs; the American lishintr vessels hardly over llip(>Nt>(l of IliltiVHl it, niackrn'l as far as | iJM Holoiiiii (liu^laraliogl il l>_v virtiui of ail Aij ^,'11 Viitilk'«l an Ad toij iitlis. L V PKKI'LKS UM-ATK AT II, Nova Hcotia i«)VK -Inly -Otii IS", » 'JOtii »lay of .Inly is;;f y preHciu'c (he loicjiJ \]l MAliMKOH il. ^'. ( 'oiisiil I am a Britisli sulijort Jove Ouy-slxno' Vm\\\} \\AoyM\ in Ushiii^ t'vml jst ii7 siimmors I Imv lericaii lisliinn vessels eir iH'ta or ciiri' lisli oi M M Ainei'icaii hcriiii? [of the rrovinecs of tli |men eaeh vessel— tlieii ifj the hist <» years pad inae,kerel iiahiiifi tltf lioGnlf of St Lawrt'ii » to 11 men as a tie 2 the mackerels liav iling to my opinion awl ait found by tlie nwckl lait was searee bocaiis) by the Dominion Hey or I think it »va.s 187 II oil— the same fallii) Ireat Britain iutertere 1853 or 1855 and tlii numbers to the Gulf to the best estimate iiackerel in the Gulf [ring the season that at period— the Arae e Gulf of St Lawreu imall numbers, butthj [ek in July or even " lilt*' »H the lieKiiiniiiK of AuKiist— the iierrinu hhliing ve.sMels arrive BttlH^ .Magdalen IslandH alioiit the Ist of May, they remain there an Lriilt* aiioiit \i to :( wet'ks iinleNN the llsli happen to lie searee there when Itht'V otK'ii K<* to theeoast of Newfoiindhiiid — (ienerally the herring tleet mkcH l)iit one trip a season and after their return iiome ll.sh oil the iiuM'ican eoast fral>ly iMMiellted lit) People on tiiis Strait, besides buying supplies of all kiiids, they ii>iirly all hire from two to three boats to go with them to the Magihilen hIuiiiIh paying about M dollars a trip tor a man and his boat and ten lollai'H a boat without a man, thi^ average number of the crew of \iiit'ri('an herring' (isliing vessels when they arrive at the Strait men and the hire the rest here paying about)J>w'Oa man III the run to the IVIagdahMi Islands and bae.k— the maeUerel ilshing ri'Nsels expend likewise a great deal of money in the Maritime roviiices as th(\v call at a great many ports and spend money in e.very Dort— as long as 1 can reme.mber has the trade of the merchants on the Strait of Oanso priiKMpally nsist(Ml in selling goods of all kinds to (Viiit'riean liHheriueii and the people of the Strait of (Janso would iiavu (Ml but very little money if it had not been for the money spent by iViiHTJean fishing vesst^ls — On the whole I ut 400 to 500 barrels per vessel, in former years that is 8 or 10 years ago they averaged about one thousand barrels the codfish caught by the Americans is all caught outside of a line three (3) miles from shore — the halibut or other fish caught by Americans oti the coasts of the Dominion of Canada is totally insignificant and not worth mentioning — the American fishermen expend a great deal ot money in the Provinces for beef, mutton, potatoes & other vegetables and supplies of every description as they are in the habit of visitin}; many ports of the Dominion in succession from the time they leave the American coast until they arrive on the fishing grounds and during the whole season while they are in the Gulf of St Lawrence and tiioy are buying more or less at every port they call at — I think the average ex peuditure of a seventy ton American fishing vessel in the several ports | of the maritime Province may be safely estimated at $200 per season, unless they land their fare for re-shipment to the States in which easel the expenses for a reouttit would be of course much larger — a fishing vessel of a size which costs here about $500 would cost about $1 .liii) to $1600 in the States and the outfit in the States is at least } higlier than the cost of outfitting a fishing vessel of the same tonnage in >'ovii Scotia — I think that the presence of American fishermen on the coasts of the maritime Provinces is a great pecuniary benefit to them i. e. tbe| Provinces and not in any respect injurious to the interests of the Peo pie of the Provinces; and I make this solemn declaration couseieu tiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of an Act passed during the 37th year of her Majestys reign entituled "An Acttortbej suppression of voluutarv and extrajudicial oaths. iXited Pirate Cove Jiily 19th 187*7. h\a E. AUG. + CRITTENDEN aiark In presence of: OSCAK MALMROS )N. AWAKU OP THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 3231 lanso do HoltMiinly r 44 seuHoiis, I ,ini itiii — tlint «liiriiit; Hitin einploycd \u piiirH the iiiiirkercl III oft"; it lias dm. Imlt'(A) of wliHt it tirely unknown— ivy deHcriptioM in ) averaged I tliiiik lumbered tVoiii im tiMliiuK vessel is l)y a crew of \\ to Ishiiig vesselH nre ja; — the AnicricHii and curing tlsli m my experience tliiit shing alongHide ot that more ttsli are of vessels are tlsb t American herring >miniou have mim- nbered about 4(1 ur g Am. vesselH have isel, in former years lousand barrels the tside of a line tluee lit by Americans otl isignificant and not nd a great deal ot & other vegetables le habit of visiting; time they leave the mdsand during the , rence and thoy are link the averivye ex ill the several ports at $200 per season, ^itates in which case ich larger— a fishing cost about $1")W to least ^ higher than e tonnage in >o\'a irmen on the coasts fit to them i. e. the iterests of the Peo -claration couseieu' of an Act passed Id " An Act for the CRlTTEIfDEN' United Statk.s Consulate at I'HiTou, Nova Scotia I'lUATK Cove .hjjy lOth 1.S77 I hereby certify that on this 10th day of .luly 1S77 the above named K. August us Crittenden at Pirate Cove before lue made and subsiribecl the foregoing ''* Solemn Declaration." Attested : OSCA!{ MALMIIO.S U. S. CoilHUt No. l.")<». I Khonezer C IVeples of the Ct)mity of (luy.sborough in the I'lov- luce of Nova Scotia Do Solemly declare that 1 am a Ihitish subject, that I am by occupation a fisherman. Have been (Ishing in American fishing vessels for the last thirty six Summers during the Spring and full I have often been engaged tlshing in Boats inshore on my own ac- eoiuit the VesNols in which I was employed prosecuted the Mackerel tisheiy in the Hay of St. Lawrence during the last (Ive or six years only about one fourth of the Mackerel were caught during the season that were caught in former Years, say Htteen Years ago and prior to that According to my estimate three (|uartcrs of the Mackerel caught by American fishing vessels are caught outside of the three Mile limit from shore, not more than one quarter being (taught inshore Ido not think that theCatch of Provincial fishermen are any the less becaum^ an American fleet are fishing in the same vicinity The cause why mackerel are very plentiful in some seasons and very Scarce in other seasons is not known At least one half of the Crews of American lishing Vessel are com- posed of Natives and residents of the Maritime Provinces of Canada The American fishing Heet derive little or no advantage from the privelege of drying nets and Curing lish on our Coasts as they are uol iuthe habit of making use of the privelege, occasionally the may cure au iusigniticant quantity of Ilerrings at the Magdalene Islands During the last five Years the average number of American Mackerel shiug vessel averaged about two hundred sail in the Gulf of St. Law- i rence The average tonnage of these Vessels is I think about fifty Tons The presence of American fi.shiiig vessels on the Atlantic Coasts of the Dominion has greatly benefited its peoi)le owing to the purchase by the I American fishermen of supplies of every description and the Employ- aieut given on board these vessels to a large number of peoi)le belong- I iug to the Provinces The number of the Crew of an averaged sized American fishing Ves- I !tl8 is about fourteen The Codfish caught by American fishing Vessels are taken entirely I outside the three mile limit The average number of Crew on board Herring fishing Vessels are [about Eight, the Herring caught by these American Vessels is nearly 1 caught on the Coast of the Magdalene Islands About fifty vessels Ifroui the United States go to the Magdalen Island for Herrings every rpring. sometimes some of them go the Island of Anticosti and the p'twtouudland shore when Herrings are scarce at the Magdaleus. The laverage catch of these vessels have been for the last five Years about [seveu hundred barrels Herring each Vessel Mackerel Herring and Codfish are the only fish that as far as I know I'liB Americans are in the habit of catching in the Gulf of St Laurence i' 'I III-', tP-Ji^ ■ XI' ■V..1* 8232 AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MMI8HI0N. And I iiiiiko tliiH hoUmiiii (Icclaratioii <;oiiH<*ii>iitioiiHl,v lM>lit>vin;; the Hiiiiie to \ni trii(> and hy virtiu> of tlio Act itaHHvd in tliu .'tTtli Ycni of Iltr MaJcHtyH Kfifiii entitled an act tor tito NUppifNhion ot volnntaiy ami extra jndicial Oatlm I'iratt' CovuHtrait (.'anso July lio. 1877 liJJENKZKU V im:i;i'i,i;.s Unitkd States Conhulatk at Vw'iov, Nova Scotu TiKATK Cove .Inly L'Oili is;;, I lierfhy r«Mli(y that at I'irato ('ov«» on tliiw L'Orli »lay of .Fiilv is;; bt^tort^ nie and in my prwMonro tli» abovo naniud HbiMifKcr ('. rfiplti vobmtarily niadu ami NUbNcribcd tlie torugoinf; ^'Hulenin Declaration. Attested : OSCAR MALMKOS U. S. COHHUI No. 157. 1, Sanutel Peeples of Port Muljjrave on the Strait of Canso do sol emnly declare that I am 34 yearH old that for 10 yearn up to within .'i years I have been one of the crew of some American Mackerel or coil Ashing vessel — that I am of the opinion that nearly if not fully two thirds (ij) of the crew of American ttshinj; vessels are HultjectH and in- habitants of the British North American Provinces — that the Provincial fishermen catch quite as many nuickerel when fishing alongside of uii American Mackerel fishing fleet as they would catch in (tasc there were no American tlshiug vessels on the Mackerel grounds of the Hritish North American coasts — until within about the last 0 years the Ameri can Mackerel tishitig vessels began to arrive on the tishing grounds ot the Gulf of St Lawrence at the beginning of June but during the last 5 or 6 years but very few arrived until after the Ith of Jidy and (luring the present season they have but just now arrived in any numbens— tbe reason why they have during the last G years arrived so late in tiio Gulf of St Lawrence is that the Americans have had a very good catch diir ing the early part of the summer season ott" their own coiists— up to about the middle of July the mackerel in the Gulf are rather poor they don't begin to fatten until about the middle of July — about 'ijd of tbc i entire catch of the American Mackerel catching fleet in the Gulf of St] Lawrence is caught oft' shore that is out side of the 3 mile line from shore j and only about ^ is caught inside that limit — the codtisli caught bvthe American cod fishing vessels is all caught outside the 3 mile limit od the grand banks of Newfoundland and other places on the high sciis- the Americans do not dry their nets on the coasts of the British Noitli American Provinces or at least but very rarely and do not at all cnre their flsh on these coasts — I consider the presence of American (isliinj; vessels on our coasts and in our ports as of the greatest benefit to tlie[ iidiabitants of the Provinces as they spend much money in all the ports where they call and they are in the habit of calling at a great maiiyj Provincial Ports in the course of the season in faitud as it breaks up the schools of mackerel and injures the lishing only a few American vessels however fish with seiuj's — indeed I do not tiiitili that fishing with seines is ]>rotltable as those at least that the Americans use can not bo employed in shore to advantage — the Ameri- cans often land their seines because they tind the tl.shing by hook more profitable — I think that at least one half of the crew of Am. lishing vessels are natives of and reside in the several l»rovincesof the Dominion of Canada — the mackerel fishery has very much fallen otV during the last .') years or so — the reason why the mackerel catch has been poor li sea- sons ago is that during that season the mackerel were very much chased by the horse mackerel a tlsh from ii to 8 feet long preying upon the mack- erel; the mackerels shift and take new routes during some seasons; tboy do not regularly return to the breeding groumls like the salmon — tiiey, the mackerel were very plentiful, they say last season on the coasts of Newfoundland while they were scarce in the Gulf of St Fjawreiice — the only llsb caught by Americans olf the Atlantic coasts of the Domin- ion either in-shore or oil" shore are mackerel, codfish and herring, to a siuall extent however the Americans prosecute also the halibut fishing — they do not employ more than from 0 to 8 vessels in halibut lishing and these generally lish oft" the Coasts of Anticosti And I do make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the Act passed during the lillU year of Her Majestys reign en- titled "An Act for the suppression of voluntary and extrajudicial oaths. Dated Port Mulgrave .July 21.st 1877. JAiMES McNAIIi United States Consulate at Piotou N. S. Port Mulguave .July 21st 1877. I hereby certify that the above named James McXair on this 21st day of July 1877, at Port Mulgrave, personally made before mo and sub- scribed in my presence voluntarily the above " Solemu Declaratiou. Attested : OSCAR MALMROS U. S. Consul 203 F #rf. mi -.T'! ,t*' «^« m d2S4 AWARD OK TIIK KIHIIKKY COMMIFHION. No. mK I, .loliii Miirmy, do Nohwiiiily diutlaro tliiit j wum iioiii kimI iiIwiivn liavi> Im>««ii li\iii(; lit l'(»rt iMiiluriivo on llMuStniit orOiiiiMo ; tliut I uiii ill yinrM of mn' — tliut h\um>i I WiiH ID ytHXVH of nm't I liuvu licuii (Mitdmcii in ||i||. iiiK diiriiit; tlio HiiniiiM'i' houhoiih — Mint with tlio »xc<>|ttioti ot' two NoaMotiN I liav«Milwii,VM Mliippcd ill AiiHM'iuaii tlHllill^ vi^nncIh during iliimi' 2 HcaNoii I waN in I'roviiirial vt'NN«>lrt — tlio AiiicriraiiN do not dry iln-ir iictH on lIuuroaHtH of tlio Doiniiiioii oxcopt orcaMionally r«)r lialf a tla,v nor do tliry (!iir(>tlioirllHliontlit>H(H;oaNtH — tiiourowiMalioiit j coiiiposcd ot nativcH of tlici HritiHli North Aiiiorioan l*rovinc»M wlio uru Htill icHidin;; in Wwi ProvincPHand antof (mxiiho liriMnli MulijiuttH — tli» Ainflri<'.aiiH(;at<'li all tlitdr (uxUImIi on tlio lianliH or ofl'Hlioru. i do not think that I'rovin cial llHlu^rnuMi c.atuli any Nnialior nninlior of IIhIi on at^coiint of IIhIijh^ aloii);Hido of AiiMMituin Ihu'tM of inarl^Mcl IIhIhth — thv inackon^l IIsImtv liax iiiiudi fallen otV during till* laHt r> yoarn and oRprdally during tlic hiNt *J yoai'H it litiH aiinoNt boon an (Mitint failuru — tho cauHo of the liilliii(r otVof tho nia<;k«M'i>l tlsliory Ih not known — dnriiiK tint proNcnt himsoii niatikorcl proiniMr to \n};iii to coMio in iliine but of late yearM they doii*t arrive on tlut liHliiiiK Ki'<*>i<>dH in any nutnbt^r until after the Ith of .Inly — the niiuk ( rel are poor until after they have wpawned that Ih about the inldillc oi .Inly — they are Just K<'Hi"K f<'t >'<>w — the AnierieaiiH (uitch by fur t lie larger (piantlty of inacUeiel oiitNide of the three mile line from NJitiri', I Nhould not think that the Ameri<;ans(rateh more than one fourth of tlitii entire uateh of mackerel in-Hhoro that is inside the .'i mile limit— thr eoHt of outfit of American vesselM on^atjed in the ilsheries is considcia- biy liiKlier that that of Provincial tlshiii^ vessels, thi^r ontllt is niinli better too tiian that of the L'rovincials — fat nuutkerel ami f.it iicniiii,' (!aii{;lit by Provincial tiHliiiif; vessels are nearly all sold in the IJnitcd StateH, and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing; the same to be true and by virtue of an Antiiii( tiilH |N)rt liiiM l>««(>ii not li^NM Miuti lirty uiiniiully. Tlii^ inilitiinf III' tlu^ Muid AiiiiM'icuii ltslilii(( ilo<>t with iitu ns n mor* (liikiit (liiriiiK (liu liiNt llv«) youFH liuM \hhiu uh t'ollowM : IiilHTJ, for Suit I'Jl. »• HiipplioN All. In tS7;J for Bait 1.1 " Suit .. no. " SupplioH • 2l7fl III IS? I, lor Suit 8.1. »' Halt 12 " SuinlrloH 2r»!)0 III 187') for Halt 17. ^' HiiiidriuH ]!),S0 )J1!M>7. Ill 1870 lor salt 44 " bait 27. " SUIHhit'H lil(H) l!!lil7l TliiTt' iu'ci MO llslilnj; vi'msjOm cmployiMl at pr«».sout oat of this port, the tislicry \u'\\\ii jMitirely uuiuluctud by shore boats, and llshornR'n earn only I :i|in>(!a lions liviii); A(!(!()nlinjf to my Exporienco nearly one half of the crews of Amori- I (Mil tisliiu}; vessels fruquunting this port are natives of Nuva Scotia anofore mo B. ARCHIBALD J. P No. 101. I. ^\liliam ir. Moore, of North Sydney Ci^p Breton, Merchant and |Tra(ler, do solemnly depose and say: Tli.at I have been doing business as a trader and General Merchant |at Xorth Sydney pe Breton for the last twenty years. Diuiiig tliat pel lod the port of Sidney has been visited annually by a Iniiinber of vessels engaged in prosecuting the God and Mackerel fishery, Woiiging to the United States of America. Within the last five years jtlie average number of Atuerican fishing vessels frequenting this port llMsnotbeen less han fifty annually. .«*• *'i\ ni5 323G AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ' Tlio vxptMiilituru of thi^ Hiiid Amoricnu flHliiii); flucit with iiiu um a Mcr- cliiuit during the laHt tivc yeai'H huH betMi an fulluwH: In 1872, for HupplicH loo " 1873 for Supplit'H .J31 1. " Halt & Halt 180 ;{4e extent at this port, but altogether by Shore ImatN, and iishernien make only a precarious Jivitig. According to my experience nearly one half of the erews of Aniericaii iishing Vessels frequenting this port are natives of Nova Sootia aiul Cape Breton. 1 consider that tie jMescnce of American (ishing vessels on our grounds is of great pecuniary benefit to this country. Dated at North Sydnt v C. 15. this 18th day of .Julv 1877. 'W. 11. MOOKK Sworn to before mo. li. AIMJIIIBALD J. P. No. 102. 1 Allan McDonald do solemidy d«Jare that I was ''orn atid am liviii;; about 1 mile from Cape .lack Antigonish County, Nova S :\m. H(l. 8(1'.'. SI. irt. Tlio llslu'ry is or by Shore boats, crews of Ami'rioaii f NovJi Hcotitt and iig vcsHols oil our V IH77. w. II. MooKi: AWARD OF THE FISHKUY COMMISSION. 3237 ''orn situl am bviii;,' Nova S [\ vessels— I do not ih or but selilom mi lauKht by Ainerieiin le high seas, at any ..y lish (ianslit by iah, inaekerel hali- 111 mackerel lloet in e hundred sails but ch of uiackeiel luiv ere more than sixty 1 dou't think tliat irs— the American •rovinees has avt-r- ason— I have never .8)).ing vessel off the lishiug fleet on the n there as many iis iug, herring tishinj.' g codJishing or lifi' (iulf— I know from vessels that I liave | at ports m the Proy- isiderablc money w orrect idea of what iiate the averii!,n> ex- ports of the Ihitisli ree huudred or four f of the crew of the Ainorican fishing (leet llshing oil" the (Joasts of the Ilritish Proviii8enee of OHOAK IMALMKOS rK()viN(!n OK Nova Sc^otia County ok Antkjonish. I hereby Certify that the above nanuMl Donald McDonald (Diiikiiuis 8on) voluntarily made and subs(;ribed by aflixing liiH mark before iii(> at C'ape.Iack Settlement in said County of Antigonish the forcf^oin;' Solemn declaration. Civen under my hand and Notarial Seal this 21th ii of voluntary and extra-judicial oaths Dated July 25th 1877. MICHAEL CKISrO In prsence of: OSCAKMALMKOS 6" ^ Consul Province ot: Novascotia County of ANTKioxisii I hereby Certify that the foregoing named Miuhael Crispo volnntarily made and Subscribed before meat llai'^our IJouche in said County ot Antigonish the foregoing Solemn d<»ciaration Given under my hand and Notfirial Seal this 25th day of Julv 1877 JAMES G iMcKEEN (Seal.) Notary rMk » (Diiiic-iiii'.s son) JIIAEL CUlflPO AWARD OF TIIK FIHIIKUY COMMIHHKlN. No. u\n. 3239 I l'att'i(!k VVctilMtf IliirlKU' II(mi<;Ii('^ «Io Nol(Miiiily ilr(;liii-(t tliat I live at siiid Ilarlior noiiclir, Aiitijjdnisli (Jomity, Nina Hcolia, lliat. I liavo Iif(>ii llsliiiiffCor Mackerel lor .some years — i airi now eii^^atfed in the llsli biisiricHS, 1 own one lisliiiifj vessel niyselT (vxelnsively ami own an inter- est in three other llsliinf^ vessels, I also supply a niiml>er ot (isiieririeii 1111(1 Ihey pii.V me alter their trips l>y ;xivin;j me tluMr e,at lislieri(>s I do think tiiat ('olonial lish(>rnien (;at(di al>ont as many lisii when lishin;;' to^'et her with ameri<;an v(^ssels in th(^ (iiilf as when ll.sliiii;.'' alone I know that th(! American tishernien in the course of the season <;all at many of tint (Colonial harbours and Hpeiid mmdt money and I think that on tlio whole the preHenco of the Americ^an llshei- iiii'ii on our ('oasts lias been u {,'reat pe(!uniary benelit to the People (if tiie i'roviiict's And \ make this sohunn declaration conscientiously l)('li«nin7 years I have been mackerel lishiii};, two seasons I have been codlishiiiff — 1 ilon't think that that Provincial lishinj,' vessels catch a smaller <|iiaiitity (if iiuicki^rel on account of lishinfj alonjjside of an American .Mackerel lisliiiiff lieet — durinj« some seasons the American tishin^ vessels can do liettcr inshore at other seasons they can do better olf shore that outside till' three mile limit from shore — taken one season with another 1 think the Americans catch the j;reater poition of their mackerel outsi by tlioiii of all kiiulH of HupplloH and country produce and bi'(!aii.s<' they K'vo eniployniont to jjreat many of our llshermcii aiid other people — that No. 1 and No. 2 mackerel and most of the fat licriin;; •aufjht by Cjolonlal fishermen finds its only market in the United Stiitcs a part of the fat herring however is 8ent to Canada, and I make tiiis solemn doolaration conscientiously beliovinp; the same to be true aiidliy virtue of an Act i)asse»l diirinpf the .'{Tth year of Her Majestys rei^rn cii. tituled.an Act for the suppression of voluntary and extra judicial oiillis, Dated Cape Jack .July 21th 1877. JAMES + GlLldi:.S murk In presence of JAMES G. McKEEN I'uoviNCE OP Nova Sootia County of Antkionisii I hereby Certify that the above named James (lillies voluntarily iiiadi- and Subscribed by aflixiuf; his mark before me at Capo Jack settleiiuiii in Said County of AntiKonish the forejroing Solemn declaration (Jiven under my hand and Notarial Seal this 24th day of Jnly ISTT (Seal.) JAMES G .McKEEN Kofary I'lihlic No. 107 I, William Embree do s(demnly declare: tliat 1 live at a place callcil Bear Island, on the Strait of Canso about 2 miles below Port llawkcs- bury in the County of llichmond, Nova Scotia — that I am by occupiUioii a fisherman — that I am ~>~> years old and have been out lisliiDg evy mi son since 1 was 18 years old — that 1 have never been empl(»yed in an American fishing vessel — that 1 have been fishing in the Gulf of St Law- rence around Sydney the ]\Iagdalen Islands and other places in tlio Gulf — that 1 have fished alongside of American vessels many a tiiiii' A never thought that I caught a smaller number of Bsh on account of fishing alongside of the Anierican fleet — American INIackerel lisliiii;; vessels begin to arrive in the month of June in each year but in sniall numbers only — they do not come as a rule before the first week in July— this year they are but Just now beginning to arrive and 1 don't tliliik that the bulk will arrive before August — the mackerel begin to fatten up from about the middle of July — as far as I know the Americans do not dry their nets or Imt very rarely and do not cure their fish on tbi' coasts of the British North American Provinces — the Americans catch their codfish all on the banks & other places on the high seas — as near as I can come to it I thiidi that about two thirds (n) of the entire catch of mackerels by the American fleet in the Gulf of St Lawrence is caught outside of the 3 mile line from shore and about ^ in-shore — I think tiiat between j\ and J of the crew of t., i American fishing fleet is composed of natives and residents of the Lyitish American Provinces — the aver age number of the crew of an American Mackerel fishing vessel is about 13 to 14 the crew of an Americau herring fishing vessel averages about 8 men — the mackerel fishing in the Gulf of St Lawrence has much fallen off — formerly that is ten or fifteen years ago there were as many as 700 to 800 Am. vessels counting each return of the vessels to the Bay as a new vessel — fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St Lawrence while dur- ing the last 6 years taking an average their number during the season has not I think been more than 200 — I am convinced that the presence of Americau fishermen in the ports and on the coasts of the Dominion iN. AWARD OP THE FISHKRY COMMISSION. ;j24i country idodiicc ur llshcnncii ami [)f the Tilt lu'iiiiij; the Unitod Siiittis luul I iiiaki* tills to be true innl l>y ilitje.st.Ys r('i;:ii en- tnijiulicial oiiths. ll'lH nmrk »VA SCOTIA W ANTKiONlsn s voluntarily iiiiidi' [)C Jack setth'iiu'lii Icclanition (lay of .Tuly ISTT J McKHHN Sofary I'lihik e at a place caili'd Jilow Port llawkcs I am by occuiiiitioii out lisliiiij-' c'vy sim- n employed in an the Gulf of St Law- »ther places in tlie essels many a tiiiii' fish on account of ]\[ackerel lisliinj; . year but in sn\all (irst week in July- (i and I don't think erel begin to fatten the Americans do .e their fish on tk' le Americans catch high seas — as near of the entire catcli jawreiico is cauglit diore— I think that fleet is composed roviuces— the aver- ling vessel is about ssel averages about nee liaa much fallen ere as many as 700 sels to the Bay as a lawreuce while dur- r during the season il that the presence ts of the Dominion is (if great pecuniary advantage to the peoido thereof and iti no respect ail injury to the interests of tlie people of the Provinces— I do not think that the Ameriiii:k ,sel8 catch (|iiite as 8 as they would if ley have as },'oo(l )\vover have uot- slde a line 3 miles er part outside that r with another the _ire patch of u\ack- t line— I think that Heet fishing in the 8 are natives of the ;e8— the Americans ,i8ta of t'»e r.ritisli _;s of the Colouies- )f the British Tiov- ug the spring they :e weeks .S: thtMi go jer to the coasts ot I American herriuf; ling trip suchaves- of herring— such a and IJewfoundlaud AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3243 wouhl average during the winter trip a catch of about eight hundred biirrelH — all the codfish Caught by the Atnericans is caught outside tho ,'i mile lindts — the Americans to a Hmall extent catcli halibut oft' tho coasts of the Colonies— about 3 to 5 American halibut fishing vessels llah on the coasts of Anticosti they make generally two trips during tho season and each vesstl averages per trip about fifty thousand pounds — basidos going to Anticosti tlie Americans don't fish for mickorel on any other places otY the coasts the Jirltish Provinces except about 15 Americnin vessels who go halibut fishing on the grand banks of New- fomuUand — the Americans don't llsh for any other class of fish oil' tho coasts of the Hritish Colonies except those I have mentioneression of voluntary ami extrajti- (licial oaths. Dated Harbor llouehe .luly LTith 1S77. KDWAIM) LKVANCJKll III presence of OSCAU MALMKOS i'. *S'. Consul PiioviNCK OF Nova Scotia County of Antiuonish July 2'), 1877 I hereby Certify that the above named Kdward Lovanger this L*"»th (lay of July 1877 duly made and Subscribed before me tho foregoing solemn declaration freely and voluntarily at Harbour IJouche in said county of Antigonish Given under my hand and Notarial Seal the day and year above mentioned JAMES G. McKEHN (Seal.) Notary Vuhlic No. 170. I George Langley do solemnly declare that I am fifty four (.51) years oUl— that I live at Uear Island Strait of Canso and am a british sub- ject— that I went first fishing when I was between 12 and l.'J years old and have been at it ever since, during the summer season I go in fish- ing vessels but during the spring season an years ago — my own experience in the American vessels on which I have been engaged is that we caught during every one of the three seasons all our ma(!kerel many more tlian 3 miles from iiiiy shore — during clear days tho North Cape of Prince Edward Island could just be seen — I can form no estimate of the jtroportion of mack- erel caught by the entire American fieet inshore— from my experience I don't think that Provincial fishermen ever catch a smaller number of mackerel on account of having an American fieet fishing alongside of them— I have never seen an American fishing vessel fish for bait in- shore on the Coasts of the Dominion of Canada— the earliest I have been in the Gulf of St Lawrence on an American fishing schooner was m ■J *• 'iw 3244 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION ii '■ the 20t1i of June — the h'lg ticet of the Amoriciin tlshiiif; llent don'i (oinc until after the fourth of July — dnrinj? tlie period of from 10 to !."» viiirs ufjo tht're were probably from 400 to 500 American saiLs intiieduif llshinj; for niaekt^rel — during the hiwt 5 years they did notuveraKc niDrc tlian 7(> or SO KailH annually — I think that fully \ of the crew of tlic American llshinj; Meet iu the (Julf of Ht Ijawrence is composed ol miIi. jectsoftlie North American British Provinces who continiu', Uf, rcsi- dents of the Provinces. 1 think that the presence of Americun lisli- ermen on these coasts and in our harbours is (»rj,'reat pecuniary ad- vantaj^e to the people of the Provinces while I am not aware that it injuriously atfects any of their interests and I make this solemn decla- ration conscientiously believing the same to be true and l)y virtue of an Act passed during the .'37th year of Her Majesty's reifj;u entituied an Act for the sui)pressi()n of voluntary and extra-judicial (»aths. J)ated JJear Island .Inly 23d 1877. In presence of: OSCAK MALISIKDH U. IS. Vomul OEOUt;!-: LANdLKV PiioviNOE OF Nova Scotia County or Kiciimonu I liereby Certify that the above named CJeorge Langley voluntarily made and subscribed before mo at liear Island 8ettlement in said County of Richmond the forefjoin;; Solemn declaration Given under my hand and Notarial Seal this 2.'{rd .'{7tli viMir of lier AlajeHty'M reign ontituluil an Act for the HuppruHMiun of voluntary and extra Jiulicial oathn. Jtear Itiland ISettlenient .luly 2;id 1877. ClIANDLKll KMIlKi:!': In proHence of : OSCAR MALMItOS U. .V. COHHUI % ritoviNCE OF Nova Hootia County ov Kiciimond I hereby Certify tliat the above named Cliandler Kml)ree voluntiiiil\ made and MubHtu-ibcd liefore mo at Hear iHiand Heltlement in Haiti County of Uiclimond tlie fore^oint; Hoiemn declaration (iivcn under my liand &, Notarial Seal tiiiH *J.'(nl day of .Tulv 1H77 (Seal.) JAMES G. JSUjKKKN Sotnrij Ptihliv No. 173. I, Solomon Calioon do «olemnly declare that I have been en},'iiued as a merchant at Capo Canso C. U. for over 10 yearn — that I have been in the habit of trading with American codllshing vesHclH — that last year, which in that respect wan an average year, I trailed with about sii Ameri<;an (Ishing vessels to the aggregate amount of, as near as 1 laii come to it, about $10,000 — this amount represents the sum expended Ity them at this port atul neighboring ports within about li hours sail for supplies of all kiiuls including about )!(.'>0(h).00 advanced to them tor purchasing bait at said jKirts — the Am. vessels, as a rule, buy all tlii' bait they ol»tain at these ports and adjacent waters, exceptioiuilly how ever they themselves catch some scpiid for bait, this however is insignili cant and hardly worth being taken into account — the vessels i. o. Ameri( an vessels, who call at this port for supplies, are in the habit of calling also at other ports in the Dominion to receive supplies of dilVerent descrip- tions during the same tlshing cruise 1 can not estimate the sums ox pended by them in such other ports — the Americans do not carry on boatfishing in these waters and make no use of curing tish atul but very little, if any, of drying nets or seines on the coasts of these Provlncos- for No 1 Salmon and No 1 and No 2 Mackerel, caught by Colonial vcs sels, the-United States are the only market and most of the fat herring, although I do not know the exact proportion, goes to the United States, a portion of the fat herring, I know, tinds a market in the Provinces of Quebec and Ontario — codflshing is carried on by the Am. vessels on the high seas, they do not catch cod within 3 miles from shore — the presence of American fishermen in the waters of these I'rovinces is as far as 1 know in no respect injurious to the interests of the Provinces but of great pecuniary advantage to them, aiul 1 make this solemn dec- laration conscientiously believing it to be true and by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th year of Her Majesty's reign entitled an Act for the suppression of voluntary and extra-judicial oaths Cape Canso June IGth 1877. SOLOMON. COHOON Witness: I OSCAR MALMROS / )N. Jill I (In Holomnly mscioiitlotiHly lie- iiihh(mI (liirii)t( tilt* r tho HupproNsioii ,1:11 FMIHIKK )VA S(!OTFA ^ HV lllCIIMOM) inhreo voluiitiiiih i>ltloincnt ill Hikid 11 y of.TiilylS77 . McKKKN \otnry Public hat I hiivo lH'«'n in Ih— tliat lust yciir, U'tl witli about ^(1 )t', UH iioar as I ran D huimoxikmuUmI In It ;J hours sail for rauced to them lor a rule, buy all tlie exceptioually how owever is liisi},niili Hselsi.e. Auu'iitiiii ibit of calling also (lilVerent tleseiiii- niate tho sums ex US ilo tiot eairy on r llsh and but very these I'rovincos- t by Colonial ves of the fat herring, tho Uuitotl States, 1 the Provinces ol he Am. vessels on „ from shore—tlip eso rrovinces is as of the Provinces .e this solemn dec- y virtue of the Act led au Act for tlie klON. COHOON AWARD OF TIIK FU'IIKKY COMMIHHION. 3217 CONSULATK «)P TIIK U. 8. OF AmKIIMA M I'i(!T()U, N. S., Cai»k C'anho A«»kn{;v tluno Hitli 1H77. Tills is to certify that b«>roro nio, Iho undorsiffiicd, Oscar MalinroH, IT. S. CiMiHul for Pi(;tou N. S. and tlii^ dopendoncies thcn'of, porMotudly ap- iifitt'cil tho ubovo niuiMMl Ht>l«>ninii (!ohoon and on said Kith of Juno at Cape ('anso voluntarily made and subscribod tho forottoin^ jSolonin liccliiration. OSCAk MA I. MHOS i'. tS. CitHHUl No. 174. I Thomas (). Cook of ('apo Canso in tho Piovincoof Nova Hrotia do sdlomnly doclaro lliat i intw am and for tlit^ ia.^t Twoiity yoatM, have litiMi a Monthant transacting business at this port, aniitinK this port, and to my kin)\vleil);o Anieiican lisliiii); vessels do iiiit tisli Codtish at all within throe miles from the shores, and very rare I'iises if any maokarel by seines within that ilistanito, and finm tho clmnKos in tho methods of tishiiig of late years, tho insli mo llshori(>s are ii^s iiiipiu'tant than formerly — I iiin not aware that Amori(rliiri»tioii wiu iiimlu mid Hiil»Mci'ilM*<>ii a tnorrliiinr in Captt OaiiNo during; tlir laHt Hi ytstrn that I liavit \nu>u in tliu Imliifor NiipplyiiiK American CodllMliin^ veHMtJH at tliis port — lant year I fur niHiiiMl MnpplicM to about UH) Ani. IIhI^^ vt'NHcJH tb«^ nupplii^M toKi'tl)*''' ^vitli inoncyH fiirniNhed tliein to buy Itait aKurcKatint; i^l(),0 oi Am. tlshinff tleetn alt)n(;.sitle of I'rovincial Ushermen docH not leH.scti tin- <;utch of the latter — I have never lioanl of vVmerican tlshernieu liiiviii;' made une of any of the HhorcH of Nova Scotia or the Gult'of Ht liiiwicmv for cnrini; fish or drying; iietH or Heines — I .|ud(;e that fully ontt hall' ni the crew of Am. Ilshinj; veMsels viHitinjj tUe British Colonial Atlaiitn waters are British sTibjects residing; in the Dominion of Canada ami I nuike this solemn declaration conscientiously believing; it to be true ami by virtue of the Act passed durin;; the 37th year of her Majestys m^n entitliu'd an Act for the suppression uf voluntary tSo extrajudicial o.itli Cui>e Canso C. M. June 1<». 1H77. ALFllHI) W 11 AIM' In presenc^o of: ) OSCAk MALMROS [• r. >S'. Consul) riioviNf^K OF Nova Scotia CuYsnoKo' County, Town oi-' Cai'K Canso Be it remembered that on this 10th day of .luno in the Year ot Our Lord One thousand Kifjht hundre(>ii in tliu liiihit ot — luHt yciir I fur l»li«Mt«»Kt'tlH'r witli i,«M»U or ()V«'r— llic lit my ti">i«l«' with I'l'iiH" UH lu'iir iis I I wcr« KU|>plit'l«»ii<' i>H but am of opiii lnivo lnHMi of nit'iit irkct ft>r No I iin'l OH — i\ui Anu'iii'itii I over ;i inili'H Uwn Dbtahi luuo a liltli' vcH the preKt'iu'c nt (loOH MOt U'rtMt'II tin- l» (IslltMIIIOIl IlllvilU iulfof Ht I ill wit' 111!.' It fully one hull ol Coloniiil Atliinth- III of Canada iiiitl 1 ujjit tobotmc iiml ivv Miijestys rciK'n uxtra.jmiii;iiil <>i''' ;\iVA) W llAUT OF CAI'K Oanso in the Year ot Om iveii, personally ap . in the l»roviii('i' tti ado and subsciibiMl iunto subscribed "ly the Province afore- |>S. C.COOK Not. /'«''• AWAKI) OK TMK FIN]IF.KY COMMIMHION. No. 17«. 8249 My name Im .lanieM (i. MeKeen, I am a Itrilixli Mtit>jeef, have reKjiled ut I'ort lliiMtliiKM Strait of CaiiMo lor the luHt tliiity live yearn, iho ;;ri'ikler part of tliat time I have b«d llsliin^ Hiipplj«ie. The trade from the Ameriean thhiii); VenselH in the .Strait of (lanso liiiH lieeii of very ^M'eat pet'iiniary advantage to the people of this part ot' Nova Si'otia, I havi; know Ameriean Mackerel tlshin^' V%>ssel.H fre- ijiii'iitly |)iin^liaHi« Niipplien here amounting to from one thousand to liltH'ii hundred Dollars pr .S«>iisiin Kaidi, I lielieve that AmeritMin llnlH'r- iiifti have been in the habit of biiyinu siippjii^s in tlio Mineral llarlioiirs ildii).' the (loastN of the Mritish l'iovin«-e^ and that they bought llsliin^ supplies largely in I'rinee Kdwards Island, but I cannot k>V(' any a|>pro.\i- mate idea of the Amount The ('Odilshernien for Sm'eral Years past purchase also the ordinary supplies above named, to a lar^e extent, and iiesides they piirehase Ice and liir^'e ipiantities of fresh llerriii;>;s and Mackerel for bait all aloiif; llie(Joasts of the l'tovim;es, this supplying of Ice and fresh tish for bait to American Oodtishiii^ vessels is becoming; ipiite an (extensive liiisiiiess, New Icehouses are lieiiiK eiecited every Year around the Coasts of the rrovinees. and larj{er stocks of ice are storeil, to be sold priiu-ipally to the I'liited States tisherineii, these llshermen after taking 111 a supply of ice p> for fresh Ilerrinj,' or Macki^rel, purchasiii;,' from liirty to sixty barrels, whenner they arti to be had aloii^ the Coast, and this "baiting up" as it is called is repeated two or three times each season, and oflener when Codlish are scarce, these Herring' and Mack- Hi'lare sold to the tlshermen at from i)ne Dollar and llfty ('eiits to three Dollars and sometiines hi};her The Aineri(;an lishiii;; Vessels both the Codlisliinj^aiid macikerel lleet frecpiently makecoiisideraldt^ expeiiditiiies 111 Ports ol the l'roviin;es for repairs to their Vessels and in the piindiaso of Aiiidiors, Cables, Sails, Spars. &.i% &,ii, Alioiit ten to twelve Years a^'o from two hundred and llfty to three liiiiidred American tlshin{{ vessels passed through the Strait of Cansu Yearly bound into the (hilf of St Lawrence for the piiri»ose of (Mtcliinjf Mackerel, but ?• > ; 3^50 AW/RD OF THE FIHFIKRY COMMISSION. Is I Nciiily nil tlui XiiiiiImts one, and two, iiixi a hn^o part o Ih'V tliuM' Alackcij'I, iminhcr »»ii»i Silmoii, and larp' (luaiititio poc:' IlcniiijiH, caii^jlit l»y IMoviiicial lislu'inu'ii around our slii.ipcd (o tlu' I'uitt'd States lor a Market, that beiny t!ie I most tlie only Market tor our tat and best lisli 1 am not aware, that th(^ Aineri(;an lishernten use to any i extent the shores ol the I'rovinees tor (Mirinjf their llsh or d The Ainericiin (ishhij^ \'«'ssels (>niploy lar^t^ innnhers of ni \\]ti to the Provinces on board their vessels every year, pr( two thousiind men yearly, these men {j;o in Mackerel lishi {generally on Shares and in Cod.dshing Vess«>ls they an^ el retieiviu},' laiily remunerative AVjit^es, the employment o men on board An)eriean lishinj,' N'issels is considered a jjreat to our peoph< in a peeuniary point of vi*'w And 1 tJanies i the i;5th day of June A 1) 1877 A 15 SKIN] Ji'stioc of the Pmcc/or the County of Im No. 177. mym- \n '^^ff* n I (ieor};e Buid^er do solenudy dec-lare that I am 31 years < am living at Margaret Hay L*i nules from Halifax — I liavj ployed as a Jisherman ever since 1 was a boy — for 10 seasons ] master of a tishing vessel tishing in the waters oil' the Ame & those of Nova Scotia, the (lulf of St Lawrence & ISIagd for cod and ma(!kerel v^' herring — cod tish is not at all can Am. tishermen within 3 miles from shore — about h of the mack by the Americans is caught within 3 nules from shore — tl 'aackerel in Trovincials waters has much fallen oil' during t (5 years, of late years they are iloing hardly anythiiig in mt ing in Provincial waters — the crew of ^Vmeiican tishing vess viiK'ial waters consist of from \ to K of British subjects, resi ]'roviiie<3s — the monthly \. ages of the crew of these tishing v average about 830,"j,'{- per man. The Americans buy all Ih obtain in the Provinces, they do not tish for bait here then Aineriean tishing schooner of say from 70 tons to 8") tons \ in theprovin(;estroin8li()0to 8300|"„"„ for bait, ice,fa(!l •S. provi if such schooner called only once during the season at a i)ort jnces <'''*''' •'' '"' '*'"* lii'inuMi arouinl our (!(>i»st>s aiv u't, Ihiit iK'iii}' the iK'sr :iii.l ,il St llsh ^lu'ViuiMi use to any iipitn'ciaMr uiiu}; tlit'ir ll«li "•' »''■>'";-' ^''t'* lar;?o nuinlu'is of infu bclnii;-. sHi'ls t>verv .vi'iir, pi'obiihl.v ow. I'o ill Mac.kt'n'l lisliinn \ issiiv ■ VoHsols tlicy arc cliitMl.v Imvil ' tlu' omplo.MiuMit oi' so iiiai)) isconsidfroila },'roata»lvantagi lo soUmiuiIv doclaro Uiat I con- aiiii'd ill tho lotr^'oiii},' (Iccliin ion, by virtue of tlio Act passou I t'lititUMl an act for the supi'ves ^'"* .lAMES a. MoKKKN tat'Mnpiit was si{,Mioa in my i-ns .a at Tort llastin{?s Nova h.:otui A 15 BKINNEK lecfor the County of Innrnm- 7. •c that T am 31. years oUl-t!iat I from llalifax-lhave be.Mu-m .^ bov— for 10 seasons I havi- liHMi lewi'itersolVtiie American ooasij St Lawrence & Mag.lalen Isianl tish is not at all eansht b.v t . .-about h of the mackerel ci,u-li miles fr..)m shore— the cacch ol Hell fallen olf (lurinj? the last. .or liavdly anythi.i}? in mackerel lisk American tishing vessels lu 1 o- f Uritish subjects, resuhns m t . ■rew of these tishin}.' vessel wmiM Americans buy all the bait t lie) nslifor bait here themselves- M luTO tons to 85 tons Nvouhl oau ,,.bait,K.e,fuel&proy.s.(mst. > ,.r the season at a port ottH i - ,„eiit-l do not t.unk hat '• injurvon account ot the .i>lni. catch of iTOvincial h«i>ermon "'J side of an American lishiuj; tit - ,ut man & turn.sh an Auu-ru le Americans make no use ol and but very .eidom tor the H ■nght by Americans withni.. Ill Inackerel in the I'roviucial ^vauu but very little before (he month of .Inly bec^aiise np (<» that time the iiiiickeiel are poor aiidleaii—i beM»>ve thai if the riovincials liad as inneli (iitcipiise and ill vesU'd as iiKieli eapital in li^hiii;^' vV lishiii;c vesst-ls as ilii'.Viiierieansihal the privilc;;eof lisiiin;,nn Am. waters north of tlie;5'.)tb i|i-i< f latitude W(»iild he as valnaltl:- to tin'iii as tlic ri^ihl to tis!i la ridviiirial waters is to the Ameiiciiiis Tlieic ean Ix- no dould tiial the Itii'sciiee of AiiM'rican lislicnneii in the waleis of tlie I'rovinees is of vi'iy jiieat beiulit to the People thereof as llicy expend a ^'leat dea! of iiKMiey for clothiiij;, jtrovisions «.S: supplies of all kinds, and i make this xilcnin declaration cons(!ientioiis!y lielicviny: the same to be tine and liy vii'tiieof an Act passed intiie;{7th year of ller Majesty's reij^ii eiititiiled ••All Act for the suppression of voluntary and extrajudicial Oaths Cape Canso June IGth 1877. CAIT GEUKGE UUMvKIi In ijresenee of OSCAll MALMUOS r. aV. Comul 1 Vliomas C (Jook of Cape Canst) in t' c I'rovince of Nova Scotia No- tiirv I'liblic do hereby certify unto all whom it may "oncern that the iihove and foregoin^i' declaration and Statement was made and sub- Miibi'd in my presence by the above named lieorj^e Ihinki^r on the ilay i)t the date thereof 111 testimony whereof I the said Notary hav<' hereunto snbs('ribe:-«v. U i 5:.-r,-p,,<^^ 3252 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. American flsliiiifj vessola cnlliiipf at tliis Port is ])art of tlio orow of tlio AiiH'ri(!an vc's.scls Miuiii;,' tlie .soasoii is fully 'MO from Islo IMi'.daini! alone — these yonnK men return to tlieir homes after the lishjuj,' sea- son— the presence of the Ameiic^an flshiii},' licet on our coasts is ot ;,'i('af l)ecnniary a or (I vessels per .season— J have never seen or heanl of Aujerican llshermen dryinj; their nets on the coasts of these Provinces and of but one American lishin;; vc.s.siil have dried lish on our (!oasts. FrsMARMEaU Subscribed & sworn to before uio this 28th day of July 1877 OhCAK MAIiMKOS U. to *i.'0,';,';, wortli , me per vessel altliough as to this latter arti<'le I am not sun — 1 know tliat about 'AM of our young fishermen go each year in April «S: May to (lloucester to seciure good berths on fishing, mostly codlishing, vessels — return 'o t lie Islantl after the end of the fishing season — they fish , arcs an«i 'lo well at it 1 think that tlie coming of Anu'ricaii lish- vt ssel.s to On! coasts advances the prosperity of our people aiul does my of its intcu'ests. So help me God. Iliey 111- not iiit»'rfere witli Dated Arichat July L'!)th 1877. ISIDLKE LE BLANC Sill '^c.ibed ^ sworn to before me > JuiVliOth 1877 I OSCaii MALMKOS U. /S'. Consul PllOVINCFi OF XOVA SrOTIA Arichat, County of Kiciimond At Arichat ia 8aieii three and four dollars i)er barrel for the herring and about ($7,"^",,) fi>r the mackerel per barrel — they take mostly herring it being most common in the spring but they prefer mackerel — each vessel takes about from live to i light tons of ice, those who go halibut fishing take from 30 to -10 tons j ot ice— the price of ice here is from two to three dollars per ton — I think m^ 5: ■= U n i n ■.,iiK 'Vi i: ^? )■ -I »■■ I . ; ■HI 3254 AWAllD OF TIIK FISHEUY COMMISfilON. tliiit fully one Ininilrcd lislicrmcn jjo ovory spiiiifj to (lloucostiT TT. R. .\_ to tjo <'(»iHislrii;i' mostly in Amciuriiii lisliiiifjf vessel, lit'sidcs a (roiisidci'. iihic iitiiiihcr arc sliipped diiriii;; the soason tioiii this Islainl in Aim. lisliiii);,' vessels — I am of tlio opinion that the pieseinu! ol' Aineri('an lisii. iiijjf vessels on the eoast.s of tlu^ I'loviiice is of ;ii'eat pecMiniary advaii- ta;;e to our |)eopl(i hecivuse they spend iniieli money on onr coasts ami ^ivei employniiMit to many of our fishermen and I make thi.s soIimiu: . West Arichat July 29th 1877. SIMON THlfKlO In presence of: OSCAR MALMROS U. IS. Consul Province of Nova Scotia West Arichat, County of Richmgnu At West Arichat in tsaid County of Richmond on this 29th day of Jiiiy I... .'lli (lnvof-Inly 1S77 .lAMEtJ G. MclvKHN (Seal.) Notary Vuhlio No. I8;j. rRoviN<'K OF Nova Scotia i COUNTV OF KldllMONI) S 1, William LeVeseonte ol D'Rseonse in Islo Madam Capo IJreton MtMcliant do declare as follows — Tliiit for tlie past twenty live years I have betui enfjatjed in the lisliin;; business in this Island — siipplyin;^ vessels and llshermon for tlie deep sou and other fisheries — and from my knowhnljje and ex[»erieneo tliercf- iii, 1 do estimate that the nuinlxM- of llshermeii who have left this Island to serve in American llshin;; v«'ssols — retuniinf^ to tlnur homes at the close of tlio season for the past live years — to averages two hundred — That there has been a larj^e, amount of bait procuired on this ("oast liy American lishiiiij vessels but I cannot form any correct estimate as to(|iiantity Tliat the IJritish 'Ishiiig vessels have, in this locality, yielded a pro.'it of at least twenty live per cent durinj^ the period above mentioned — That certain advantaf^es have been deriv»'d by the resident tishernuMi from the calling of American vessels for bait and other necessaries to the extent of the amount expended herefor — That I do not consider the interests of IJritish fishermen on this coast liave been interfered with by those in American vessels to any extent — Ami lastly I o tnio CIlAltlilOS DOVI.K Signed and dt'chired to boforo njo this 30 day of July 1H77. at Kocky Bay AV. It. CUTIilOIl yutury rublic Nova Scoliii No. 185. PiioviNCK OF Nova Sootia ( County oi< JkiciiMoNu } — I David Grnchy of Dosconso in Islo Madam Capo Hroton Merchant do hereby dechire that 1 have been thirty three years eii(,'a};e(l in tiiu fishing business of this Ishiinl that from my knowU'dfjt' and experi- ence tlierein 1 estimuto the number of tishermen who luive left tiiis Ishmd to join American vessels — and wlu) retnrn at the (!lose of season — Avera^Mnjjf the hist live years One hnndred and tifty— the past two yeais there has been far k'ss than formerly — That a Iar{i;e (|uantity of bait has been i)rocnroont I'JO Ann'ri(rari sails on an average dnrin;;' ea<;h season in the Onlf llshin^t'or mackerel and about li5 to L'O I'rovimual vessels but the vessels di years a;;o wecanyht tlm mackt'rel in the Ameri(!an ves- si'js 1 was in otF the lOast Point Prince Kdward Island ami oil' N to .S niiles off the coast — they havecan^fht l)nt ii small propoi'tion of their entin> catch inside li miles from shore certaiidy not more than om^ fonrth of their entire cat(;h inside '.i miles from shore and they ean^htthat port;on in the fall of the year — the Ann-riiian lishinff vt'Hsels nnikemostof the business that there isin the Straitof ('anso, when there are but tew American tishiny; vessels in our waters trade in the Strait is slack and nu)ney is scanu; ; during nniny years the only nH)ney we saw was Yankee moiu^y they buy a great deal of country produ(!e as hoeC, mutton potato«!S, all kinds of other vegetables, homespun cloth, socks «Si mittens made by the country people and «»tlier things besides Inning largely store goods of various kinds and they give employnu'nt to a very great nniny of our (Lshernu>n besi«Ies to coopers and other me- chanics— particularly tlnring the last 10 or 1.") years a great proportion of tiiecrew of the American fishing fleet is composed of Colonial people, I mean such as have not renioved their place of living to the States. I think it is of great advantage to the people of these I'rovinees that the American tishermen should visit our coasts and fish there as much as they please they do no injury to our fishing and nearly half of our fish- timeii v.'onld bo out of employment if the Americans did not employ them in their vessels. JOHN GRANT Subscribed & sworn to before me this 27th day of July 1.S77. OSCAR MALMKOS U. S. Consul Province op Nova Scotia Port Hastings, County of Invkunkss At Port Hastings in said County of Inverness on this 27th l niacki'rcl don't l)e;jin to ;;<'t fat un- til the iniddl(> of An;:'nst — the bait nscd liy hotit Provincial ami Aiiifii can v«-.s,scls is l'o;;i('s an (romc all from tlic I'nitfil States, cxcj'ptionally a Provincial vcssi^l may nse lieriinii Unt this is not jv ^ood bait — the average nnmbcr of vessels lishin/; for niaeUercj ju the Onlf during llu) rebellion in the States was itbont .'><)() or Kin ami iibont .'!() to M) (thirty to forty) Provincial s'essels — diuint,' most ol' ihc years 1 was ont mackerel fishing tli«^ i'rovincial vessitis wim'o alxmt niii> tenth of the nnmber of American vessels llshin<( for nnicker*>I in tlm (riilf-— llshin;? alontjfside of an Anu'riIh wcit' in tln> (inlf of St Lawrence — the nnnilier of Anu'riean vessels aliove referrciil to jH internled as the nnailier in th(« (inlf of St Lawrence— dnrin;; tlic v«'a''s previons t(» the hist !(• years the avera;,'e catch of iiiiickcK'I was two trips for each vessel — during tin> hist (5 or 7 years tlicy hav(^ scarcely avcia;,'ed one full car^,'o dnriiiyf the season — I tl;iiik that inacUerel yo where they Had the hesf, and lar;,M'st iinantity of Iced and that when the wind if olV sliore it drives the saiall lish on which mackerel feed into deeper water and the iiiiu^kerel follow them Mini whenever there is a lii;; Meet oil' shore and lu^ave over iniich bait till' iiiackerel will follow the licet — dnrin;jf the years I was out llshiny; \v(^ did better outside a line .'i miles from shore than inside that line— on an avera;;e, I am of the opinion, about from .\ to r^^\ of nil iiia( kerel <*aii}^ht by vessels in the (Jnlf is caught "outside of ;i line .5 miles from slior«' — I think that seine-lisliin;; is very iiijiiiions to the nuK'kerel tishery and onu'Iit to be prohibited entirely — I hope tlu^ Halifax Fishery ('ommissioii will lecommcnda treaty abolish- ill;; scine-fishiiifj: — it has never proved profitable in the ('iiiHot' St Law- iciicc — the .seines are about -'."> fat liotii.'* deep and tlu^re are but lew phu'cs ill the (Inlf deepenon;;h for seine tisliin;; — until the present season chere were only two or three seine llsin rs in the (lull' — the only bait used by iii.ickerel lishcrs is clam and I'or^'ies and that conies all troin the United States — I liav»5 beenout eodlishiiif; in the IJay i. e. (lulfof St Lawrence — tliecodlish caught by vessels in that Hay is all (!auj;ht in d»'ep water that is more than three miles from shore — the bait used for (rodlishin;; is lii'iriiif; and mackerel — this is mostely bought by Ameri(!an vessel IVoiii I'lovincial store-Ushers — the s|>ringherrin<,' bait is bought per l>arrel at the iiife of $I.r»(> to 82.00 eacdi, fat herring is mostly bought by the liiin- (livd at the rate of alxuit a dollar a hundred and >*'2.~>i) per hundred fresh mackerel (.'{00 .s7>*v'h7 nia(!kerel per barrel) generally it pays the boat- tisliers better to sell the fish fresh to tiiecodllsher.s than to salt and iiack thi'iii — I don't think that Provincial vessels catch any less mackerel on account of lishing alongside of an American lleet — I don't think that the AiiuM'ican Ushermen dry nets or cure lish on the Uritish (toasts, at least Ihave never seen them ilo it — I think that aliout one third of the crew of American fishing vessels visiting the (Inlf are men having their homes in the liritish Provinces. 1 think that the presence of American Miiiig vessels on our Coasts is of considerable i)ecuniary advantage to our people and does not in any way interfere w.th their interests. Dated Middle Millford, Guysbor'o Co. Aug 7rli 1S77 GEOIJGIO CKITCIIETT In presence of: ) OSCAlt AIALMllOS | Province of Nova Scotia County of (iUv.shorouoh. I hereby Certify that the above named George (Jritchett before me made oath to and subsciibed the foregoing statement Given under my hand and Notarial Seal at Middle .Milford in the Cniiiitv of Guvsborough Province of Nova Scotia this 7th day of August 1877 ' («eal.) JAMES G. McKEKX yotary FuhUc t', '•») ; «|i* j.rtH M % 8260 AWARD OF TliK FISItKUY COMMISSION. No. 180. I f'lirlstoplicr ('iirrit,'au «Io .solomnl.v «l(M'Iiirc tluit I lun t\v«'rify Mini old — Hill li.v occiipiitioii a llslicriniui uiid Mini I am living' at lidwcr Mil- tnlil ill till) Coillit.v ol' (iiiyNlMiroii^di in Hh^ I't'dviiirool' Nova Sroti;^ 1 liavi^ Ikm'Ii out iinckcrcl tlHliiii^' in the North Ita.v diiriiiK tiiii h\\ >i>imh next |irc<-cilini; the Siiiiiiiu'i' of lH7I.s, the \'(>n.s(>Ih in wliii'li | wiiN llHliiii^ dining that titiio avcrauod jicr Season I think a Ciitcii ni' aiioiit IMH) liancU pot* Hcason. I think tiiat during tho 0 .yniis 1 wiis m the North H.iy tint Mackrrol tleut truni thu I'roviiicx'N llsliiiii; in the North IJa.v was altoiit 'JO vossrls I'rovincial Mackerel lishin^ Wssels would — v.ixU'h as many (Isli wlirii Hide by side with Anu'rican ilshiii); vessels as it' tlshint; liy themselves— I do not know how many of the hundred Aineriean Vessels idiiihiI above were Maekerel HsImuh and how many were(7odtlsliers the Vessels in which I was Mackerel tishiii); used l'or|;ies iS^ (JIaiiis only as halt 1 have been two trip in the North May in I'roviiKiial Mac^kcrel lisliin^' Vessels and they also used only I'or^iesit Olanis tor bait. As tar as 1 know the Americans do nut cure thuir lish or dry their nets on the (Coasts of the British I'rovincuH I was out this spring iV:. last spriii^; in AnuM'ican Herring; flshiii;; Vcs- Hcls to the Ma){dalens 1 think there were from .'(I) to 10 American lli'i' rinj; llshinj; Vessels there. Ka(!h Sprinj? these Vessels Employ on an uverage two Men and two lloats from the Mritish Provinces ami pay on an avera}{e for lOach Man iS: Itoat about 'M) dollars for the trip lastiti;,' about •'{ weeks this Spring the American Herring Vessels at the Mat^'iia- leii Islands did not average a Catch of over .'{(M) barrels Kacli last Spring they all had full fares averaging about one thousand barrels The presence of the American lishing Vessels during the season arouml the Coasts of the British Provinces is a great pecuniary advantage to the people of these Provinces from the largo amount of money they ex- ])eiid among UH and the large number of our men they employ in their Vessels And (I do solemnly declare that) I make this solemn declaration con Bcientiously believing the same to bo true and by virtue of the Act passed in the 37th Year of Iler Majestys Keigii entitled au Act for Niiit- pressioii of Voluntary and Extra-judicial Oaths Dated at Lower Milford County Guysborough this 8th day of August 1877 CUUI8T0PUEU. CAKRIGAX In presence of: OSCAlt MALMROS mi. rEOViNCE OF Nova Scotia County op GuYSDOBorcjn I hereby Certify that the above iiaiued Christopher Carrigau voluii tarily declared to and subscribed before uie the foregoing soleiiiii de- claraiion Gi\en under my hand and Notarial Seal at Lower Milford in tlio Coui.ty of Guysborough Province of Nova Scotia this 8tb day of Auj^Mist 1877 (Seal.) JAMES G McKEEN Notary VMk AWARD OF THE KlflHIRY COMMISHION. 3201 No. IIM). Ullliimi T. I'.nu'laiul Itrin^j diilv .swcirii Hiiyn: I am lll'ty hIx yi'ars oI«I, live at iiiifltllii MilHoid (iiiysliom' ('oiimy N. M. nImco I was 11 y«'ars old lip to iilioiit 7 yt'Hi'.s iiKo I liiivc lict'ii nut llsliiii^ in llsliin^' vcssrls, inoHtly AintTicnii vj'SMi'ls, that is I liiiV(^ Imm'Ii llsliitiK in vessels for in m'iiis, iliniii;; the last 7 ytMiiH I bave Ikmmi hoat tlsliinj,; and titrniin^ — us Viir iis I liiitivv the Anieii(;iitis don't, dry their nets on the Itritish Coasts nor do tiii>y ciii'i'' their lisli on them — the bait used lor maeUerel is l*tir;;ies and cliiiiis and these all e()iiu> trom tho United Htat«>s — herring is now lint very rarely used lor liait and never except l>y I'nniiieial Vt'Hsel.s — the Imit lor e.odtjsh used l»y Ameri«Mins in the (inli'ot' St Lawrunei^ is mostly niiiulil hy tli(*mselves on tlu^ tlshiii); grounds by the Ainerieans anil I'liii^'lit eoiisei|iieiitly in the deep seas — I have often sold bait to the Aiiii'ricans {ionm to the (;rand banks <»!' Newronndland eodllshin^ — the t'odllshers K'*i»K ^(* the ;;i'aiirel will keep iiincli more inshore — those nuu^kerel that are comparatively yoiiii}; iiiwiiys prefer to keep more inshore — I have n(n'er known as small an Aiii(>ricaii cod and mackerel fleet in tlie(ilulfof St Lawrence as during the last two years ami especially last year because the cat<;h of mack- tTi'l was very poor. The Ameri(!aii lleet, leaves (n'ory season, especially when mackerel are plenty (considerable money amoii}? us and are there- tore and because they employ many of our men of (umsiderable benelit to Diir (;oasts and as far as [ know they don't do any harm to any of our interest — all along the Strait of Caiiso the American fishin;,' vessels that iio to the Magdalen Islands herring tishiiig, about on an average 10 (t'oiirty) sails u season, hire boats and men — they each hire on an averiige 3 or 4 boats with as many men for an average trip of from .'J to 4 weeks — thoy pay as high as )i the Mag- dalen Islands — I was three weeks away and got '^'J^i",,'', for the trij; — Dated Middle Millfoul Guysboro Co. Nova Scotiii August 7tli 1877 WILLIAM T. + ENGLAND uiark. In prosonce of: OSCAR MALM li03 Province of Nova Scotia County or GuvsiKtijoiMiii I hereby Certify that the above named William T. England volunta- rily made oath to and subscribed before mo the foregoinir statement (liven under my hand and Notarial Seal at Middle Milford in the ('o of Giivsborough Province of Nova Scotia this 7tli day of August 1877 (Seal.) JAMES G. McKEEN Notary Fitblic i>'''-:' ..<*'.. i4 <►, IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) /. "% S' ^ •X> >\ O^ "V^ .^ vu HsIiIum; m inackt'itd veHHtds over thirty yours — about 7 years ap» I left oU Kay. fishing in vi'ssels hIuco that time I have been boattlshing an privilege of Ashing inshore as well as at other times when they liiid to tish in limits, caught nearly all their mackerel outside the ',i mile line from shore it was only an odd vessel that went iu-shore and caught tlicir mackerel there — the mackerel duryig most of the years I was in tlic Gulf nnickerel (Ishing kept mostly in the deep water and not more tliaii one fourth of the entire catch of the American vessels in whidi 1 was was caught inside a line 3 miles from shore I have always tlshcd iu American vessels with the exception of live seasons when 1 was lisliin;; in Provincial vessels — the bait used by the mackerel vessels in which I fished was Porgies and clams, we used no other bait — Porgies and chims all comes froni the United States — between one third to ^ of the crrw of the American fleet of mackerel fishing vessels are men having their homos in the British Provinces — the Americans have much benefited the ihojiIi' here in the Strait of Canso — the American herring fishers that iioiiu; here in the spring give the first relief to our poor people and it it was not for the American fishing vessels on our coasts a very great nnnibcr of our laboring men would be without employment, the great number of the American mackerel fleet come to the Gulf of St Lawrente from about the 10th of July — the mackerel fishery has much fallen ofliiml d"ving the last three years the catch of mackerel has not been a piiyiiij; one at all ; during the last two years mackerel fishing has been almost a fadure ; and I do solemnly declare that I make this solemn declara- tion conscientiously believing it to be true and by virtue of an Act passed during the 37th year of her Majestys reign entitled an Act for the sup- pression of voluntary and extra-judicial oaths. Dated Middle Millford August 7th 1877. MARTIN IIYAJ In presence of: OSCAR MALMROS Province op Nova Scotia County of Guvsiiokoigii I hereby Certify that the above named Martin Ryan voluntaiil\ de- clared to and subscribed before me the foregoing solemn decla.atioii Given under my hand and Notarial Seal at Middle Milford in the County of Guysborough Province of Nova Scotia this 7th day of Aiij,nist 1877 (Seal.) JAMES G McKEEN yotary riiblic No. 193. I, Philipp Ryan do solemnly declfire that : I am living at Middle Mil- ford, I am 42 years of age — I think I was about 10 years when 1 tirst went out fishing in the Gulf of St Lawrence in fishing vessels— I have mostly been mackerel flshiug although some seasons I have been Cml- AWARD OP THE FI8IIKRY COMMISSION. 3263 tlMiiiifjin the Ha.v— I left off jjoiiifj in flshiiifj vesscln in 1872— tho Amer- ican tislionnen «l(»n't dry tlii'ir in-ts nor cure tlieir tisli on onr »;<»ists us tar as I know— during the hist H or 10 years mackerel tlsliin^' has miieh tiillcn off »ml durinj; tlie hist two years as far as I can hear nnu-kerel lisliiiiif lins almost heen a fa i hue— 1 'orgies nnil ehims as far as I know tis iniiversally nse«l in the Hay as bait altiiouf^h i fow Provincial vessels iiiiiy oeeasioinilly use herring— Poryies & clams get all from the States as far as I am aware— I shouhl think that about one half of all the mack- erel caught by vessels is caught outside a line 3 miles from shore aiui ^ iiiHid" ''.Hit line — I should say that of late years about one third of the tr»nv oi American tlshijig vessels was <;omitosed of men having their homes in tho British Proviiices — I should say the >i 8264 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. iiig— I think that the presence of American AHhinffvcsHelHononr coasts in n pecnniHryiidviintHftu to our people as tlicy Hpen«I much moiu^y and ;;ivu eniph)yment to nuxuy of our |ieoplu Ami I unxki^ IIiIh Holomn declara- tion conNcientiouHly believing tl e Hamo to be true and by virtue ot an Act ibr the RuppreHHion of voluntary and <>xtrajudicial oatliH. Uated at Lowt-r Millbrd August 8tl» 1877. ANDKEVV LAUIMi: In presence of : OiSCAlt MALMliOS PnoviNrE OF Nova Scotia County of (Juyshohoimmi I hereby Certify that the above named Andrew Lowrie voliinfi'iil; declared to and Subscribed the foregoing Solemn declaration before \m Given under my hand and Notarial Seal at Lower Milford in tiu' County Guysborough. Province ol Nova Scoti a this 8th day of August 1877 (Seal.) JAMES G McKEEX yotaru VubUc No. 194. I Thomas England do Solemnly declare that T am living at Middle Milford, Guysborough County Nova Scotia, I am about 29 Years old— during the last 10 Years I have been out Mackerel tishing and during; one ot those 10 Seasons I have been also Codtlshing in the Gulf uf Ht Lawrence — I have mostly been nettishing in the Spring and hooktisliiii}; during the summer — I .suppose that Provincial vessels tishing alongsido of American Mackerel Catchers would not on that account catcli a smaller quantity of Mackerel that they would do otherwise — Porgies and Clams are the bait used by Mackerel vessels — occasionally a Pro vinciid vessel may use a little herring as bait. — My own experience is that more Mackerel are caught outside a line 3 miles from shore than inside that line — the Americans don't dry their nets on the Hritish Coasts or cure their fish there as far as I am aware — the American fish- ing tieet especially when Mackerel are plenty leave considerable Money on Our Coasts and I think that their presence on these Coasts are of great pecuniary advantage to our people And I make this Solemn declaration Conscientiously beleiving the same to be true and by Virtue of an Aco passed during the 37tli Year of Her Ainjestys Keign entitled An Act for the Suppression of ^'ol^ll• tary and Extrajudicial Oaths. Dated at Middle Milford in the County of Guysborough N S. August 7, 1877 In presence of : OSCAR MALMROS his THOMAS X ENGLAND mark Province of N'ova Scotia County of GuYSBORouGn X hereby Certify that the above named Thomas England declared to and subscribed the foregoing solemn declaration before me Given under my hand and Notarial Seal at Middle Milford in the County of Guysborough N. S. this 7th day of August 1877 (Seal.) JAMES G McKEEN Notary Public [ON. ielH on our const siH ,ch inoiMiy lunl niv« IM Hulemn D mark Inova Scotia JF GUYSBOROUOn [Englaud declared to Wore me fiddle Milford m the ist 1877 G McKBEN Notary PuhUc AWARD OF THE FI8IIERY COMMISSION. No. lUo. 3265 I iitn forty six years of age and a tlshernum by occupation, I am liv- iiijr at Lower Milford Giiysboro County Nova Scotia I have l»een tlsh- jii^r in the North Hay al)out U years up to and inclusive of the season lit IH7.'} whenever I was not out (ishing in vessjds I have bocn boat- lishing 1 have never seen Ameriiran tisliertnen dry their nets «>r cure lisli on the shores of the Ibitisli Provinces— I dti luit think that a Pro- vincial vessel if well Htted out will ('atidi a lessqininlity of mackerid on airouut of lishing alongside as more than ;iniiles from land their bait consists in fresh herring or mackerel — in the spring they buy it from Provincial boat lisherson the coasts of the Urit- isli Provinces and (luring the rest of the season they mostly catch their bait in nets on the deep seas where they happen to l)c for 3 to 1805 since that time 1 have l>een netlishing except one season 5 years ago when 1 was out tishing in a Nova Scotia vessel in till' North Hay — the mackerel tisliers from the United States begin to iirrive in the North Bay about the 15th of June but the gieater nmnoer of American Mackerelcatchers don't arrive until after the 4th of July — 205 P >nu.^ .-|M»». ■■"W^^i .St,-, , #*• ■ US... 326« AWARD OF TIIR FI8IIERY COMMIHRION. (luriii); Intp yoarH tlir iiiHckprcl i-iiiih cloHpr into tlio land hnt foriiM Hy wIhmi iniH'kt'rel were wtill plenty miy It) to 1"> y«'«iH ii>,'o aliont as iii;in\ nMH^kcicI w(>ni(!aii|;lit Ixitli Wy I'rovincialHanil AnicriitanHontMiili'ii Imf:; iniU's I'i'dni Nliore as liiciv wito in-Hlioic — tlio American Codti.slin.s in tliait in tliu NpiiiiK from the tiHliennen on tin- coaMtH ot Nova S(U)tia ami the Magdalen Islands; dnrinK the snniiufi the American Codllshers in the Hay vnWM their own hait on tli<>di>t'|i Heas wherever they may ha)>peii to IImIi — I think on an aveni^t- im American Co«ltisher in the North Hay IniyH altont 'M) barrels ol hi'i'iiii;r on the coasts of the i'rovinces for bait — 1 think that the prcsiMicc of American tishermen on onr coasts of considerable pec(niiary advantage to onr pe(»ple as they spend mnch money and employ nniny ol (»ur incii. And I make this Holemn declaration c(»nscientionsly believing; the miiik' to be true and by virtne of an Act parsed during the :(7th >ear ol Her Majesty's rei|;n entitle themselves provided tiiey are as well lifted out iu every respect and have as good bait as the American vessels ; this is however often nut the ON. AWAKD OP TITK PlftlTKRY COllMIflSIOW. 32fi7 land Itnt tmiiM riv ^r^^ n\u\\\\ as iir,in\ aiimmtnitW'a lmc:'> icaii CotUlsluMs ill tlHlU'l'IlUMI nil llic luiiiin till' .suiniiifi II Imit on tlic «>»» '"•'"• iH'litivinR tlu' same lie ;t7tli >t'm- nl lli'i II of volnntarv and slioro County N. 8. NVAU13 WELSH lovA Scotia 1.' (UYsnouoi on I Walsh voluntarily :»n»n declaration »\ver Milt'onl in tlip this 8tb day of An (1 McKEKN yotary I'uhUc am liviufT at Middle ;cotia— I ani a fislu'i- ears ago 1 went lirst nice that time 1 have id mackerel 1(» or U ,ot tlio«r»'ttt Aiinwst ive been boat Usliiug ackerel vchmcIs come June but the pmiter ay until after the 4tli /American Mackt'iel f a mackerel vessel ot years previous to tlu' liav averaged 1 tliiiik lanso for shipment to isels went home witb ■a second trip— Oii an fjkerel were plenty as from shore as inside els— rorgies cS: clams ssels occasionally use 'od a bait^l do think fiackerel when tishmi: y do when lishins 1 > in every respect ami [however often not tlie case— the American codflsherieH in the North Itay use herring ami iii(i('k>'rel as hait, tlie fra\vh«rs buy most of thi'ir bait from shore lishcr- nifii Init the hook (todtlsherieM eatch their o\vii bait <»n the deep sea wherever they may l»e llshing — the eodtlsli is all caught by the Ameri- ciui vessels outside a line ',\ miles fntni shore — the codllshi'i's ■r<»iiig to the grand banks of Newfoundland buy nt«arly all the bait they use of |>ioviii(;ial tislienneii they inn in usually 2 or .'{ tinu'sto bait uji — siuue of their bait, especially s(piid, they catch themselves on the grand Imiiks — it pays the b(»attlshers better to sell their licrring and mackerel to the Ameri(!an CodflshiMs in the North Hay and on the (Srand ItiMikn thai) to salt and pack their herring and mat^kerel because the price they |rft is usually the same ami they save pairking, salting and tln^ barrels —I don't think that the nnn^kerel vessels in the North May during the last .'( or 0 years have averaged per season one full fare the macrkerel tisliery in the Bay having falleii otV so mindi — The tleet of Americtaii ht'rriiig vessels going to the Magilah'iie Islamls averages I should say 1j to Iti vessels each spring, these hire on an average three men and three boats each in this I'roviuce for their trip to ihe Magdalenes' last- ing' about 3 weeks paying for a man ami his boat from AMt to $•'{'> I'Vu — oii('s|M'ing while I was there, theie were hardly any herring, last season when I was there they averaged about li(M> barrels a vessels a id during jjood seas«ni8 they will average fully lOOO barrels of herring eacdi — the otiier seasons while I was there that is about o besides the 3 mentioned the catch of herring was good — I think that about one half of the ('rew of American tishing vessels Ashing off the coasts of the British North American Provinces consist of men who have their homes in these I'lovinces. I think the presence of American lishing vessels on our coasts and in our harbors a great i»ecuidary advantage to our people ; and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to Ite true and by virtue of an Act pissed during the .'J7th year of Her Majesty's reign entituled an Act for the suppression of voluntary and oxtiiijudicini oaths. Dated Middle Milfor.l August 9th 1877. CUAKLES LOWlllE In presence of: OSCAU MALMROS Province of Nova Scotia couinty of guysbokough n. s. I hereby Certify that the above named Charles Lowrie declared to and subscribed the foregoing Solemn declaration before me Given under my hand antl Notarial Seal at Middle Milford in the Couiitv of Guysborough, Nova Scotia this J>th ilav <»f August 1S77 (Seal.) JAMES (i. MclvEKN Xotary Public No. 198. Nicholas Nicholson says and deposes on oath as follows : I am living at Port Uastings, Strait of Canso, am by trade a fislierman. have during thclitst six years been out lisliing in American Hsiiing vessels — my age is3(l years, I was codHshing I meant to say six years besides having liHcii lishing for mackerel during two seasons, that is, last siiminer and till' summer of four years ago — :lic CDdlUh tiiat is c iiiglit by Ihe Amer- icans is all caught outside a line 3 miles from shore and of the mattUiMel, as tar as my experience goes, fully two thirds is caught by tin? Ameri- cans outside a line 3 miles from shore and about one third inside that .•«>'^^. ■-r^>-*:} il**^U«*-:. -^ 82G8 AWARD OF THE FIHIIKHY COMMIHHION. line — towurilH thn latt«'r part of tlu* m(>uh«)ii it in tliut niackorl Ih (Nkii({)it iiioru iiiMliorc — tli« Aiiu'ricaiiH do not ilr.v fliiMi- ii(>tH on our coaNts hm pr('H(M'V«> tlH'ni liy Halting tlicni in lio^slicailH — I liave ot't«>n mimmi Aiiit-ri CHii niacUcn*! tlNliinu vcmmcIn anil IMoviticial llsliint; xiilt; l>.v hIiIi^ himI my ex|HM it'tici^ iH tiiat tiM' v«>hh«>Is of tlii' I'roviiMU'M catrli qnitii us inany iMackt'rcl when tlNliin^ Hiili> l>y sidi^ with an Atnuriuati tliH*t aw tlicv iId wIkmi not aloiiffNiiliM)! thcni — rodtlNlit'rH- (Anicriuan) in tlii> (iult ot St Lawrence cateli nioNt <»t their bait, iierrin^ |»rin(!ipaliy, and uiaekeid jn the hay, in netn, nuieh more tlian '{ niih'H trotn Hliore — the eodli^lifrs ffoinK to tile banks of Newt'onndhUKi partly bay their bait at IM-ovincial I'orts, abont enoiiuh to last them three weeks, partly they cateli it mi the banks, it' they eaii nH squids, they prefer it — I think that fully half of the lisherinen of the Ameriean vessels lishin^ oil' the Coasts oi the Hiitish Provinces are natives of the British I'rovinees who coiitiinif to live ill the Provinces — I think that the Am(>ri(!an tlsliin^ vessels mi our coasts is a threat benellt to our people beitause they spend iiiilcli money among us and t;ive einpluyment to nianv of our men. NICHOLAS NICHOLSON Port IIastincjs Aujj Ist 1H77. Sworn to & subscribed betoro me this l8t Ciy of Aug 1877 OSCAK MALMROS U. S. COHMUI PuoviNCE OP Nova Sootia Pout 1Ia.stin(jh County of Invkrnkss I hereby Certify that the above named Nicholas Nicholson voluiitaiilv innde and in my preseiu^e subscribed the foregoing alUdavit Given under my hand and Notarial Seal at Port IListings afo^e^4aill this 1st day of August 1877 (Seal.) JAMKS G. MrKKKN Xotary I'ltblic No. 199. Duncnn McEachren being duly sworn says : 1 am living at Craij,Mii,sli County of Inverness C. B. — I am about 45 years old — this is the 3(1 slim- mer that I am at home not iishing, 3 years ago I was tishing for mackerel and ever since 1853 up to 3 years ago! have been mackerel tishing oven summer mostly in American vessels, the Americans du not as far as I know dry their nets on our coasts nor do they cure their lish on the coasts of the Provinces — take one year with another and 1 should say that on an average the American mackerel llsliing vessels take more maclierel outside a line 3 miles from shore than inside — all the vessels I ever was in got their bait from the States — when I was out fishing 1 always saw the Americans raise the mackerel lirst, they, the mackerel often ^ioeiiied to follow the American tleet because they throw out much bait — I liiiiik that the Provincial tishing vessels catch as much mackerel when lisliiii;; side by side with an American Heet than they would or than they il) when not tishing along side of the Ai: v*ricans — I supposethat all ot two thousand men from the British Provinces that is men who have tlieir homes in the Provinces are annually employed as fishermen iu Amorieaii fishing vessels — it is a benefit to the |u'ople of the Provinces that tlie American vessels visit our coasts because they expend much money in the coasts aud give employment to many people. DUNCAN McExVCHEllN ON. Miuekcrl ih caiiKlit oil our IMIUHtS Itllt ofU'ii H«i»'ii Anifii n\i'. by hIiIo 1111*1 my (•ll (|UitO IIM III.IIIN til tl»'»'t UK tll«*V (Id ill tlii^ i'tiilt oi St y, mill iiiarkfift in ire — tln^ ('(hUIsIhts • Imit lit TroN inciiil ly tlu\v eutttli it on liiiik tliiit t'ully one \ii OIV till' CoiiHtsof iiiccs who coiitiiiiii- I llsliinu vcsHcIs oil ) tlu'.v wpeiul milt'h III' IDIMI. 8 MCIIOIiSON MALMROS U. S. Consul V\ OF INVKRNKSS icliolson voluiitiirilv uttldrtvit IJastiiigs afort'Siiitl 3 CJ. M(-KKKN ^'otary ruhlic n living at Craitiiiish —this is tlie 3(1 sum- Ishing tor iiiHclaMfl virkert'l Hshingi'vi'iy do not as far as I fir liisb on the coasts sliouia say that on take more inackt'ifl le vessels I ever wiis shing 1 always saw ackerel often ^eeiiuil much bait— 1 think ackerel when lishinj: \]i\ or than they ^l'> ppose that all ottwo uen who have tlair jlu'rinen in Anu'riian Provinces that tlie end much money m >' McEACHEK>' AWASn OP TIIK PIRHERY COMMISSION. Sworn to and Bubscribed before me tliitt Jnd dav of AiiuiiMt 1S77 OSCAR MAl,MI{OS L' »S CoHMIll pRoviNrF. OK N'tiVA Snn lA rulM V Oh InvKKM'.SM I hereby Certify that the above named Diinean Mcl-laehren vobintiirily tiia*l«> and HiiliMcribed in my presfnce the foregoinu at1lda\ it at Creignisli ill tlie said Ooniity tliis L'nd day ol AiigiiHl |S77 (liven under my liatui and Notarial Seal at Cregnish aforesaid tliin •.':!('. .lav of August 1877 (Seal.) JAMKS G. McKKKK \nttni/ t'lihlio No. L»00. (leorge Laidlaw, being duly sworn says: I am IV.) years «»ld ; am by occii|iiition a tlslierman ; I was out llshiii); jn vesMt-ls, inoHtly Aiiieriean, t'roiii 1851 to 1871! inclusive — if llshing were good I wniihl still ^^o niit ti>liiiig and may do so next season in ease maekeiel aie plenty — t W4) sea. sons or part of them 1 llslnAI on the Ameiieaii shtire — during the liiiiel v.as out llshing tlie American tleet i'l the (iiilf of St fjawrence tishiii); tor iiiaekerel would average per year I think nearly .'{(10 vessels — dining the first ,\ear I was out the tleet of Provincial mackerel vessels in tliethilt was larger than during any of the ten following years — I don't think that diir- iiiU that entire time the Provincial vessels w«)nld average per year more than tifty sails in the Gulf — the mackerel tlsheries fell off iniieli during the lu»t (»or8years — I don't thinkthatiluring the last (ior Syeais more than one (piarter of the mackerel have been caught of the (|uaiiiity caught per season say 10 years ago — during the last .'J years there v,ere not any mackerel in the (iiilf of 8t Lawrence worth going for— A long time ago, about 18 years, the Americran mackerel vessels began to come to the (iiilf as early as tlie otii of .)une and would come thick about the middle of .lime — during the last lU years the big American mackerel tleet did not leave home until after the 4tli of July — during some seasons mack- crl will keep more in-shore during other seasons more on'shoie — Anier- lean and Provin(;ial vessels, when the former have the privilege, tlsh ei|iially much in-shore and oil shore — I think that when the Americans tire kept (Uitside a line .'{ miles fnmi shore that most mackerel perhaps J are caught outside by Provincial vessels because the Americans have a heavy tleet and heave over much bait and the mackerel follow tliein — I don't think it hurts the Americans much to be kept outside the .'i mile limits, — they catch during the time they are kept in limits about as many mackerel as when they are allowed to lish in shore — I think about jj of the mackerel I ever caught were caught outside of the .'5 mile line — I think that an American mackerel vessel averages about 70 tons or 75 tons old measurement — the bait for mackerel is Porgies and clam — it is used alike by Provincials and Americans although ocrcsisionally the for- mer Use also herring but this is an exception — fishing alongside an American tleet does not lessen the catch of mackerel by riovincial ves- sels, on the contrary the more vessels the more bait ami mackerel — I have been codtishing during two seasons or rather part of two seasons tisliing for mackerel afterwards — American codtish vessels average a crew of from 10 to 12 hands — the codtishers going tothegraml banks of Newfoundland buy from Provincial people about 40 barrels of fresh her- ring on going to the banks and afterwards catch a small portion of their supply of bait on the grand banks going again to the British coasts to ■fei' J . ,,1 M I 8270 AWARD OF THK FIHIIKKY COMMIHHION. buy liuit AH lli»\v iiiM'd it — (mmKIhIi iHouiitflit oiifNiHo tli««.'l iiiIIh liiit>c\ci>|it oiK'tMii ii Nvliilt' wImmi end Im i!any[lit iiiNliorc — tlu^ AtiHTiniiiH iim t,ir hh liiiiclii'ii'l ciitrliiiiK nofx liuvo accoi'tliiii; to iii\ (•stiinulf ill all Mt-UAoim wlii'ii alhiwfd to IIkIi iiiM|ioi-(>, catittht alioiit jjij ot'tlicir <>iitiri« ratclioiit- Hide nt IJM* .'{ iiiil<« litii> — tlio codtlNlii'iN don't i-al«'li ati> ot ilicir Itiiir m. Mid(^ .'t iiiilcH t'loiii Hliot'(M>xn>|it oiM'tHii a wliilr and not worili s|tf.ikiii^r of— tiMi Aniniran IInImtmii'M doh*t dry tliclr ni*tN on tlio ItiiiiNli CuaoH, tlify |)irkl(* tlifir ni'tn on tlicir vt>HN(*lM in ord(>i- t)i |in>M(>i-v«> tlicni, nui i|o they iMii«« tlM'ir llsli on onr roastN— the Uvnt two s^^\\nttllH I liaM'cxfi I n iiuH'kcicI tUliin^ \v('ri> on tlii^ American hlioie and it is my o|tinioii iii;it it'tlie I'i'ovineial veNHels were as well fitted out an the Ameriean iiml il tliey employed aM many ot'onr nH>.st expeiieneed tlMliermen as the Aiiut iuaii.s do ami had aH ^ood halt that tlie llNJiery on the Ameriean (onsu iioi'th of the riieNapeake Itay would he aH valinihle to i'roviiu'ials aMiln* british Atlantie shoreHto tlie AintM'it^unN — I think the presenee of Aiimt- ican tishin^' vesnels on our eoasts a<'onsideralde advanta^'e to our p|t> beeause they leave a noiui deal of money haled Near Low I'oint InviirneNH County Aiiu 4tli 1>S77 (IKOIUJK KAIDKAW 8\vurn to and ttulmciibed helore nu> thin 4th ay — the nnu^kereltishin^ has much rallenot)'re yearly catch lias not been over ^ of what it was H or ten years a^ro — durinj; st)me seasons they will be miu;h nu»re ott' shore at otiier seasons nn)re inshore — dnrini; hot weather they will work inoie offshore — the best place for nmrkcicl 1 have ever scjmi is on JJradley Mank about twenty miles from Noitli Cape P. 10. I. — sometimcH the Americ^ins when mackerel is plenty will catch aliout ijd of their entire catch outside a line three miles from shore but striking' an avera^ui 1 think that during; season when mackerfl is plenty Americans will catch about one half outside and the other half inside a line three miles from shore — the oidy bait Ameriean iMacki-rcl vessels use is I'orgies and clam and that is the bait nearly always used by Provincial vessels but sometimes the latter use herrin.uf which is not a good bait aixl would not (lo at all to use as bait in tishing aloii;;si(le of vessels throwinj; out Porfjies & clam — All the Por>;ies and claui used as bait in the Gulf of !St Lawrence comes from the United iStates— I think the Provincial tishermeii catch as many mackerel Hshing alont; side of au Ameriuau tleet a» they would du if no Americans were iu tbe ANVAKh OF TIIK KISHKKY (M)MMISMIOV. a27i (liilllK'niiHini liii»ri' lltM'l Ihmiv»'k ovn rli Uiiir iiimI iiiiMcM iiiittk«l llfltti tllllll li Hlllllll IIIIIIiIm'I Itl Vl'HNch CUIlltl *l<»— I tlllllk lliul llltnilt llillt ,it oill IInIii>|III«'II tllllll ('ii|M' Kicttiii iiiitl on the \m\ii Snitin suit' nl t liu Siiail iii'CitiiHo HikI ••iii|iloMiifiit iii Aiiifi iraii lUliinu v«>hh«>U himI iI Hicy wfH' not ?40 t'liiplo.M'il ilii'\ woiilil liiivr \«'i.> lianl wuwh. I ilimk tlio niiiiiliU nl AllH'I'Iciill llHlifiiiifli tn our coiihIh Im ii (.'icttt linicllt lo oiir |irii|)li> »'M|M'riiill.v wlu'ii tlio Aiiu'iU'iiii llt'«'t ill tlu'NO wuhth im Itiim'. So Iifl|> iiiv iiuii. III-. KODKUK'K + Mr|M)NAI.I> iiiiuk SvNorti to N('rilM>«t in pn>M4MM'<> of .lA.MKM (i. MiKICKN rijoviN'K <>v Nova HrojiA I,<»w Point In\ kunkmm Cocnty I Iicii'liy ('•'itif.v llial on tin- .{(I iliiv of AiijfiiNt IH77 iMTsonally up- |ii'Uitil lii't'ori' iiif thf iiliovc iiaiiu'il Ko
  • ri( k Mil)(»nitlil litnl whn I).\ iiiu iIiiIn hvmmii to tilt' aliovc ami loic^roin^' hcclaratiiiii wiiicli lit^ siiliHctibiid li\ allixiiit; lii.s mark at tli«' toot of naid dcrlaiation AttcsttMl: OSCAK MAI-MUOS r. iV. CohhuL rR0VIN<'K OK Nova ScoTIA COI'NTV OI' InVKIINKHS I ln'H'hy Ci'itiCy Tliat tln' aliov*- iiaimil liodciirk MrDonald voluntii- rily iiiad«^ and HiiliNrrilii'd in my prt'iico tlit* toic^joiti^ atlldiivit at Low I'oiiit ill Maid County, (iivcd under mv liiuul and Notarial Heal tliiH.'tid NovuScotia,am a lisliermaii liy oeeiipation, I have been lisliiii}; mostly in Aniei-i(;an hut partly also in Nova Scotia llshiii^^ ves> sfis I knocked oil li.shiii;; alioiit I years a;;o liecaiis(> the lisherics that is iiiackerel llsliin^ had so iiiiicli I'alleii otVthat it did not pay to ;;o tlsli- iiij;; «'ver siiK'e the last (5 or 7 yt'nrs the mackerel lisheiics have been Ifcttiii;; worse — 10 or VI years or lonj^er there wcr*' about 100 or .'•00 American nuuikerel vessels in the bay ol St Lawrence, (iiiiiii;,' tlio .suiit> time theri; were about a hundred Provincial lishiii;; vessels. in the Bay — the only bait used lor mackerel, or almost the only, <'«)nsists in l'ot';,nes anil clams and these all come tVom the (United .States whether used by Provincials or AmeriiMiis; a few lOii^lish ves^iels use also a lit- tli> I'at herring but this is used in ipiantities hardly worth nieiitioiiint; tlic Aniericaiis neither dry tlieii' nets nor cure their lish on the iSiitisli ('oasts — I don't think there were over fifty mackerel tlshiii;; vessels I'itlier Provincials or Americans in the I5ay of St Lawrence — 1 have also been coillishiii^ and know that the codtish cau^dit by Americans is ail caii){ht more than 3 miles three miles trom shore — during' most of til seasons I went tlsliintj by far the ;;re.i:er portion of imutkerel i'aii;,dit by the American lisliiiij>' vessels were cau;,'liL outside a line .'J miles from slioro, in some years the mackerel keep more outside in tlio dei'P sea at other seasons they are found in greater numbers in sii.tru — of hito years tlie mackerel Uavo kept close to the shore — ton years ago S !l h 8272 AWARD OK TMK KIHIIKKV COMMIflHfON. mill for iniiiiy yi'iirN licfori' tliiit iiiii)'k<>r<*l w<>r«« tiiMt'li riinrn plenty off ■liori', Miiy ri'otti I to in inilcM IVimii nIiom' and it liir^i' |>ro|H)rtioii wrrt* CHiiulit Htill larllMM- oil' trotii IuimI — I think lliiit llit^ rioviiiciul xcm^cIh 111 niM«< they iii'i' iih koihI iinil wi>ll lltlol out iim |Ih« AiiitM'iciiii mnilil riitrli IIM iiiiicli niiirkfr<>l iiihI I «loii'i iliiiik tliiil tiHliin); iiluii|:Mi<|«> of AliHTican tlHJiiii^ v«'nn«>Im iiilcit'fics with th«> ciilrli ol rruviiirtiil vi>nni-U, 1 think lh«'.\ nitrli quite iim many inarkcri>l llMhiniiC hIiIc liy ''i*!*' ^H||| ilif AiiMMicatiN iiM tht>y wonhl -I think that altoiit oni> ImH ut till' rrt'W of th«< AllMTIcan vinhcIm viNititiK tlir (SiiH' of St l.a\\i'i>iin> iH. 'riii> Aini'iioaii llNliin^ vi'hni>Ih liny liii't{«> i|iiantiti«'H ot w^. etiihh'N, nioal, anil many otIiiM' arMrIrN, tlii>y Hpi'iiil miirh inoni'y iinioni; M'opli> anil whiMi tlii« Aini'riciin llMhiii)^ tirot on our roiiHtM in hiiiiiII iiiniif\ iM Ni'iirri' whi'ii tlii*rit iirr plenty of Ainrrican llMhinK vi>mni<|h on mir ooaHtN there Im plenty of iiioiny anions the people ; anil I ilo Noleninly Hwear that the foref^oint; MtatemeiitH now iniiile liy me are true areoni ili|; to the lieNt ol my lielief iiml knowleil^e; ho heli> me God. I Dated Low I'oiiit InverneHM (!o. AiiKii^t .'(il IH77. hlK DAMKIi + MrlH)NAI,l) timrk HubHuriheil of prtiviiM'itil v»'Mm'U, (<• Ity >*iil«> Willi till' : iiliiMit mil' liiiM III of St I.UXMi'liri- M i*||' IkiIIII'M III llir-M' (|Huiititi«'H ul vi'u- iiii'li inont'.v iiiiiiMi); IIHtN Ih Htnilll lll(Mlf\ u\* vi'MM'ls on our lUitl I Holniiiiiy in«* an* tiiH* urcitnl lilt' God. Iil« 4- M(i)ONAI,l> tmrk MALMKOS C. S. COUHIII ioVA 8<;(»TIA Y Ol-' INVKIINKSS i;|)oiiiil(l voluiiliirily iij: allidiivit at I-ow ,v of Anyimt 1H77 (}. McKKKN Notary I'Hhlk Nninty, Nova Scotin, IK Point, Iiivi'iiit'ss Diit tlio lant twenty Hsclw, numtly in tlif » or H st'HsoiiH I liavo oiMulIand and altir IlKhiiiK vesNt'l aviT- ini; vphwIh avt'tajjos ndtlshing vrsscls are lUTordiiiR to tln'<'\- t HUM) jjoon Nhart's— of American llsliini; ubjects and livint; mi inackerwl Hshiii}; lias Lawrence tlie catch t year it was iilmost were plenty tliat is taken by Ainericaus but since they Imve e that line— I ii't mtlty of mackerel on iK'fiiiint of llHliiim lilting Hide of an AniiTiciiti ||«>i>t— n Iiir|;t< lli>f>t of von- M'U liii'< a tnnrli bi'tlcr cliiinci' of llndinu tlic niiirki'trl titiin it l«>w- \«'mm«>|ii liy ilictiiMrlvi'H would liiivi' — I woiilij nitlii'i liiki' my rliain-i' In tlo' llav nimki'n'l llHhiiiK wlifii lline w«'n< IMMJ v«'..h«'U in ihe May ilnin when llii'ic nil' only twenty xthmi-Im — mTordinu to inv t'»tiiMiii«' tlic iivfruKi* ,>\|iinditiin' of an Amerit'iin Ihliin^ v('mn«>| in tin* Hi-vfiid portM ol tli» IIiiImIi I'iox iim'i'm diiritiK tlit* MniNoii woiilil iinioiiiii to iiluiiit 4*- sfUNon — in iumm iivi'MHt'l landH her nir^o on thesi* «'oiinIm lor reNliipmi'iit to i|m> .Stutt'M I •«liniild think that all her cxpi'iiMi's ini'liidinu: a eonipli'ti' iv out ill would avrra^e a thoiiHund dolliuM or ovi'r — I think tloM-oininu of Anu'iicitn llftliiiiU veMNi'lN to our coiiNtM It ^ii'iiter itdvantiiKi' to our peopli*, cHpci'l- ally when the Aineiican tlMhiiiK vi'mncIm nune in Kreitt niiiiilu'rH. tho AiiH'iieiin llNhenneii «|o not dry their iietN or nii'<> their lUh on ihiToitMtN ottlie Itrilinh I'lovinceH — All the eodllNli caught by AinerieaiiN In tstiiKht oiitsidt* a litie't inileH from Nhore — there are about on an avi'ia^f, tiikint{ till' litMt 10 ycaiN, from three to tour iVincrinin hiililiiit thIii'i.H olV the I'liastM of the IliitiNli waterM, they, tht^ halibut ar«« as a rule caiiKht out- Mill' a line Ihrei^ milcH fiom Hliore ; it iHitii exci'plion wlicti they areniii^ht iiisiili' that line — The bait tiu' miK-kertd inoMtly eoincs from tin' .StiilcN— tl'iMi' is no bait in the Doiniiiion for ma<-lx«'ri'l tlshcrs — The Aineiiean I'liilllsherM brill); their liait partly Ikmii hoinc, partly they buy it in the riiiviiiceH or eateh oiitHido the .'{ miles from Nhore. And I do .solciiiiily (It'cliire on oath that according to the best of my kiiowl('d;;e and bi'licf till' above and fore^oiiiK HtatementM made by me are trite. So help mo (J.iil. Dated liOnj? Point, InverneHH Co. Aii^jiihI 'Jnd 1H77. IH)IJ(IALI) McKINNON Hwont to and Mubscribud before me thin I'ml dav of Auuiist 1H77 OSCAK .MALMUOrt V. S. COHHUl Province of Nova 8c;otia COINTV OK INVKUNKSH 1 lierelty Certify that the above named I)oii);ald M(;Klnnon volunta- rily iiiadi* and siibstu'ibed in my presciure the foi'ep)iii^' allldavit (liven under my hand hlioifs III' I'l'iiict^ Ktlwai'tl IsIimkI anil <'apo llrctdii to iiiotMnc a |i,ir tion ol' llifir Unit lor so ilHliiii^r IVoiii IJiiilctI States Ki.sli4'nii('n tlii> mihI bait (loiisistiii;: oi' ponies or iiianhaiUtii bciii^' Itroii^lit IVoiii the Iniiiil Htatcs h,v the lislit'itiifii of that ('oiiiitl.v. •'ti'«l TIm^ boat lislu'i'ics of Ooioiiial li.shcniicn aii^ prost'iMittMl jnr ihc taking of Cod, ha«^ miles of the shore in boats by tlio lislu^rmeii of this Province not mon^ ilian one twentieth part of the iiu>{ref;ate eateh is taken on that part ol tlio Nova Seotia or Cape iJrettni Coast wliieli is I'reqiienteil by inackeial lishermen from tint United States and wlii(di is that part of the v.trM lyiii^ on the Northern sitle of the Island of Ca|>e Hreton and streuhiii;; between the Strait of Caiiso and Sydney in said Island. oth Cod ami hallibut are ean(;ht by United States lishennen only in the deep sea or on the several oll'-slioru lishiiit{ banks outside of tlu- thrcv: .Mile limit. (Uh The Maekeral taken by United States Fishermen inshore arc ean^dit only aronnd the shores of the Ma;;ilalen Islands around the shores of Prinee lOdward Island on the east coast of New lirunswick lyiiifjf in the (Jnlf of Saint Lawrence and the North <'o,ist of Cape IJrc ton extendiiif; from the Strait of Caiisi) to Sydney. All other maitkcral caufjlit by United States lishennen oil" theCoastsof British North .Viiicr- ica are taken outside of the three mile limit in the (inlf of Saint Law- rence. 7th The inshore fisheries are prosecuted by United States lisherincu on the Coasts of the Hritish North American Provinces solely for niack- eral and not in boats, but in vessels which only approach the shore to lisli during the montlis of .Fuly Aujjust, September and October. At other seasons they prosecute the niackeral lishery in the deep sea tisli- eries of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence outside of the three mile limit. Hth The whole maekeral catch by Uiiired States lishermeii in Hrilisii North American waters in the year 1S7(> I believe will not exceed in value thirty thousand dcdlars, tiie reason for the catch beiiiff so small was that for some years past the Maekeral lishery could bo proseciili'il more advantageously along the Coasts of the United States tlian on I lie coasts of IJritish North America. Last year was one of the most proiit- able and productive years on record for the maekeral iisheries on the United States Coast. Dtli. The inshore fisheries, that is to say : the Iisheries within the three mile limit on the British North American Coast are only prose- cuted by United States tishermeu for maekeral and in vessels, nol in boats — 10th. The catch of Mackerel both inshore ami ottshoreby rroviiicial fishenueu uoustitutes only about oue sixth of the aggregate catcii of AWARD OF THK I'lSMEUY C0MMI8HI0N. 3275 llsh. or tlu' MiU'kcnil r.aiiKht l».v lliiitrd States (IhIh'iiihmi limit. The lest are (tan;;ht (»nt.siile tin; tlireo iiijle hmit. All other oat lisheries have been sttsidily increasiii}; since such free at^cess was ii'iwu and so far from its bein^; fonnd disad- vaiitii;;('ous to fishermen to have a number of v«>ssels tishiii}; in i-om- imiiy. It is e nMniiicrs of such V(;s- sclsto be en};a|>ed fishinhermen in bouts is greatly facilitated tin'reby. llth Anotlu^r advanta^fe which Colonial fishernuui diM-ive from United States fishermen havin;; access to the ilritish North American lislieries, is Ity the former proiniring bait from tlie latter as deposed to in the second para};raph of this atlidavit. A further advantage t«» the (Colonial lisluTMU'n is that Uidted States fishermen buy from the Colonial lisher- men. herrings for bait to |)rosecute tiie Hank codlishery. The United States fishermen do not catch herring in British North American waters but buy suchquantities as they reipure for bait for the Cod fishery from tin; Colonial fishermen. xVnd anotlier advantage accruing to the Prov- inces frouj the United States fishermen having accc;is to the IJritish North American fisheries arises from the fa<^t that the United States fislicrmen purchase from traders in the Colonies supplies, not only of Itiiir, hut of i(!e, provisions, ^'lothing, barrels salt, nets, twines and numy (iliicr artie lisher- nicii ami the herring so supplied to them as i)ait is not used for niack- eral nor for any fishery inshore, but for the Haidc fisheiy. During the last ten or fifteen years very few of the United States fishermen use salt bait they formerly brought salt bait with them and caught fresh fish, as they could for fresh bait, but now most of them procure their fresli |i|#,Utg^ mm^., 3276 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. bait from the Const niul koe|» it in tlio ice Iiousos, with which most of their v«'Hs»>Is nrc fnrnJHhcd. 12th. Durintj tlic liiHt few years tlio timckcriil llshcry in the (Jiilfoi Saint Lawrence lias l)eeii almost abandoned by Colonial and llnitiMl Htates tishin^' vessels and is l>eiii;{ almost entirely prosecuted in boats by ('(d(»nial Jishermen. The lishery on the American (.'oast has been so mucli more productive of late years as to attract many of thosi', wlio formerly came to the Gulf; And the decline of that lishery in tiic (iuli belli}; such as to cause many of the Colonial llsliiii;>; vessels that fonnoiiy res(n'te, > f. — T 1 '^^% AW »!!| ,*i. ,.« mf 3278 AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. flHhoriuPii. Til iitMitioii to bait t'lc Uiiifoil States llslicrmtMi piirclmso from tlie people of the liiitisli Provinces lar^e (|iiiUilities o<' jft>. suit, hiirreJH, provisions, (•lotliiii};, nets, twines, and otlier artieles nseil in tli<> prosej'iition of the lisheries. Tlie timie with tlie United Htates (islicr. men for sni^li nrti(;les is of ^reat l>enetit to the peophM>f the liriiisji Provinces and is tlie priiM!i;th Of late years the dryiiijj and eurint; of llsli by the United Stiitcs fishermen is principally done on the decks of their vessels and tht-y sfl doin land to dry nets or to cure tish or to repai^k them or to traiisslnp cargoes. loth The Treaty of VVashin^'ton po far as the privilefies of the llshcrics are concerned is I verily believe as benetlcial to the people of the Hntisti I'rovinces as to the people of the United States, both will be equally benelltte«l by its provisions beinj; carried out. llth For all nuiiiber one ami miinber two nnu^kerel, for all fat lier- rin^; not consumed at home and for all number one salmon from tlio British Provinces the United States all'onl the only market and tlie duties pai(> on the exportation of such tish from the British Province!* before the Treaty of Washington amounted to a very large sum of money annually ami the opening; of the United States markets by said Treaty to sucli exiiortations has been a very great benetit to the people of the British I'rovinces. 12ih For several years past the inshore tisheries of the British Prov- inces have not been so much resorted to by United States flshenneii as they were formerly and they are being less and less resorted to every year by such tishernien, cue reason for this fact is the change in tlie modes of tl.shing pursued by such fishermen and another is the fact that the mackerel fishery ou the coasts of the British Provinces has for sev- eral years past been declining while it has been improving during the same period on the coasts of the United States. 13th The fisheries on the coasts of the United States would be very uearly as valuable to Colonial fishermen as to the United States tisliei wen if the former chose to avail themselves of the concession of the Washington Treaty in that particular, and latterly they are begimiiiig to avail themselves of that fishery which is annually becoming tuore valuable. 14th In this affidavit the statements which I have made in the pres- ent tense apply to the state of things which has existed for the past 8ix years except where I have expressed a ditterent meaning. KICHAltD BEAZLEY Sworn to before me at Halifax iu the County of Halifax this Thirteenth day of June A 1) 1877 (Seal.) WM McKERRON Notary rublic No. 206. 1 John Glazebrook of Halifax in the County of Halifax in the I'lov ince of Nova Scotia Fisherman being solemnly sworn do make oatbaml say as follows : 1st I say that for forty five years last past I have been engaged in the fisheries of British North America and have been for that time inti- mately acquainted with the condition of the said tisheries and themaii- AWARD OF THE F18IIKRY COMMISSION. 3279 Uifax this Thirteenth ,„.r ill whidi flHliinj; Iuih Ihmmi oarriiMl on by tlio Coloniiil and I'lilttMl Stiitt'M lIslicriiKMi. JikI Tliei siiiiH" kinds and di'srriptions of lisli tliat an* lound in tlio lislicrii's nicntioni'd in tlw last |iiiiaurapli an* to !»' lonnd on tlii> coasts iiiiii slioi'cs of tli(> l.'iiit«>(l States \vlii<-ii an* now thrown opi>ii toColtuiial liHliciiiH'ii 1>> thi^ Tivat.v oj Washinnton and also st'vi'ia! othiT Itinds siicli as Itass and point's whiidi are not to li<> t'oiind on the roasts and slimrs of Iti'itisli North America. ;{rd Tlui yrcatcr |>art of the liait used l>y ('ohniial lislierinen in Iho iiiiiclveial lisliery is priH'.iired Iroin tlie l'nit»'d St.ites ami is I'liinished to siiid tishei'ineii hy United Htates lishernieii who come to tlie coasts of the I'ntviiKU's under the provisions of the Treaty of Washin^Uon. The hest and most eoininoidy used bait for mackerel are |)o;;ies which are taken tidiii the coasts of the United States and nenerally inshore and the pro- I'lirinu of sindi bait is a ;rreat beiiellt to ('olonial tisherinen. Illi 'Mncii the lart^er proportion (d' the lisheries luirsiied by I7iiit(>d Stides tisheriiH'ii off the Allantii! Coast (d iJritish North A-neri(Ni con- sists of the deep sea fisheries outside of the three mile limit. I believe tiiiit at least three fourths if not Hve sixths of the lish taken by United Stiites tishernien off the sliores of the liritish I'roviiHies are taken out- side the three mile limit. ^tli The Uiiitoruiiswick ill the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and on the north coast of Cape lireton. Otli Colonial fishermen are benelitted and not injured in tlie [irosecu- tioii of the fisheries by the United States fishermen being allowed to tish within the inshore limit — they are benefitted by being enabled to pmxihase bait as before mentioned and are enabled to take larger quan- tities of fish than they could do if fishing alone by reason of the fish being attracted by the quantities of bait tlirowu from the United States tisliiiig vessels. 7tli The cost of fishing vessels and of outfits therefor in the British I'rovinces is at least twenty five per cent lower than the cost thereof in thiA United States and as a consequence of this difference in prices a lar}>e number of United States fishing vessels prociure their outfits in the British Provinces yearly. .Sth The United States fishermen procure the herring which is almost the only bait which they use for the tieep sea codfishery l)y |)urcliase from Colonial fishermen — they make such purchases in large (pianlities buying all or nearly all the bait they need for that fishery Irom Colonial tisheriiieu and they buy in addition from the inhabitants along the coasts of the British Provinces large (juantities of ice salt barrels pro- visions nets twines cables clothing and all other articles used in the inosecution of the fisheries. This is the iirincipal trade of some of the ports of Nova Scotia and is a great benefit to the iiihabirants. Large quantities of fresh fish are also purchased by Americians in some parts ot tile British i'rovinces for shipment to the United States and such shipments are chiefly made iu Colonial vessels. ♦<" W^ 8280 AWARD OF THK KIHHKRY COMMIH8ION. 0th Of lutM yoiii'H tluulr.viii); and onriiit; of iinli by lliiitud dtiit«^s li.sn oriiuMi JH prinuipiilly done on the deekn of tlieir veNHclN and they n<>|i|i)|ii hind to dry uvt» or tocnre (Ish or to repack them or to IranMHhip ciiiunfM. 10th Tliu Treaty of \VaHhini;ton no far aH the privih*K«'H of tin- li<>||. ernieii areeoneerned is I verily believe as beneficial to the people ot tlio UritiNh I'rovineeH as to the people of the United StateH. 11th The United StateH afford the oidy market for all number one and number two nniekerel for all fat herring; not eonsumed at home and tor all number one Hahnon from the HritiHh I'rovineeH and the duties pajil on the exportation of such fish from the Hritish I'rovinces befon- the Treaty uf VVaHlduKton anu)unted to a very lar^(> Hum of money aiiniiiilly, The i)rovi8ions of the Treaty of Washington by which said nuirkct \n made free are a very ^reat benefit to the people of the liritish I'roviiiccs, IL'th For several years past the inshore fisheries of the British Tniv inees have not been so much resorted to by Uiuted States fishermen < of the Provinces under the provisions of the Treaty of Wasliintitoii, The best and most commonly used bait for mackeral ai'e porgies wbicli ION. AWARD OF THE PIHIIERY COMMISHION. 3281 \h iiml they sj'ltlitiu IraiiHHhin rarutMs. ivil»<«t'« of tln' li^li U» till* IHMUlU' t»l tllf ,t»'H. , lill iiui»l»e»' ♦>"♦' '",''' u'tl at hoim' hihI \\n juitl tl»« ii"ti«'« l"i>«' Movinces lu'loic the I of monoy lUumuUv, »icJi mii»l iimikct is n> liiitiwh rioviiui's, of llio lJrili«l» IMov I atates lislu'niH'U as BHS ri'Hoited to I'Vfiy Dft\sliin«in»i«>»''''^>> i una auotluT iH'iiHou li Ntnlh Ameiif.ii hus eeiiinM)VOvin««luiiii^' U's. The ilsluM'it's on ,bU'' to Ct)loiiial lislu'i r choao to avail Uumu ton in thatvarHc.iiliU. ,e nuule in ll»«M>»»^^'*»'"^ liist six or seven ytai* + GLAZlilir^OOK imvk ■0 of Nova Seotia tlii.^ lexDhuiuMl to (Um">"i'"^' 1 McKEUilON yotary I'mMic. llifax flsheiman hoinj: L engascHl in the tislj la NesvfounaUiiul, m\ llh tlse eonailiou ot t he HIS been cairiea on bv that are founa on tjc Iwai-a IsUmaavetolK' ks which are now inmli ff Washington, an;i •'" [ml aescjriptions ot tisii \s an«l shores ol :so\a fs, porgies, ana olliei l,nial flsheinien in ^^\ Vhe Unitea StaU'-saiid yhocotnetotliecoas }:reaty of WivshmtiU;; ^ral are porgies sNliaii nrc ail t«lv(Mi from the r.onsta of the irnit(Ml StatoH and generally inshoro, anil the procuring of Mueh bait in tliis ;vay is a great boni'tlt to the Colo- nial llsiiertntMi. 41 h Of tho llsheripH pnrsuea by Uiutea States flsln'rinen otV the Athm- tic oast of Itritish North America tniich the larg«>r pr(»portion (!onsists of the deepsra tishories ontsido the throe mile limit. I bt'lime that at IfrtMt three fourths if not live sixths of the lish taken by United States tlsliermen otl' tho said coast last mentioned are tukon outsido the three mile limit, r)th Tlui United States (Ishcrmen pursue tlie inshore fisheries chiefly for iiiackeral ami of the nuickeral taken by siu;h fishermen on the Coasts of Itritish North Ameri(;a about one fourth is taken insido ami about throe fourths outside the threo mile limit, taking the average of seasons. The United States lishurmen do not fish in boats when in British North American waters but in vess«^ls, the ('olonial fishermen fish priiu'ipally ill boats, The United States fishermen procure the mackeral which they catch inshoro principally aronml the short's of the .Magdalen lal- iiiiiis, around tho shores of Prince Edward Island, the Kast coast of Neve llriiiiswick aner cent lower than tho cost thereof in the United Slates and as a consequemie of this difference in inices a large number of United States tishing vessels procure their out- lits ill the British North American I'rovincoa stli The United States fishermen procure the bait which they use for tiie deep sea codfishery which bait consists of herring by purchasing tho the same from Colonial fishermen, they purchase herring for such pur- liose in large (inantities and iti fact obtain all or nearly all they need in that way from Colonial fishermen and in addition to their purchases of halt the United States fishermen purchase from traders along the coasts of till! British Provinces large quantities of ice, salt, barrels, provisions, nets, twines, clothing and all other articles used in the prosecution of the tislieries. Tho trade with the United States fishermen for such ai'ticies is of great benelit to the people of the Jiritish Provinces and is the principal trade of some of the ])orts of Nova Scotia, Large (jiian- ^ titles of fresh fish are also purchased by Americans in some parts of tho liiitisli Provinces for shipment to the United States and such shipments I are mostly made in Colonial vessels. 'Jtli Of late years the drying and curing of fish by United States fisheriueu is principally done on the decks of their vessels and they sel- Idom land to dry nets or to cure fish or to repack them or to transship 1 cargoes, — 10th The Treaty of Washington so far as the priviliges of the fisheries |aie concerned is, I verily believe as beneficial to the people of the Brit- jish Provinces as to tho people of the United States, both will be equally |l)eiiefltted by such privileges being given. 11th For all number cue and number two mackeral for all fat herring not consumed at home and for all number one Salmon from the British !!V: A^" . mi • i' ^ l^ 'Uf' KBt Im 3282 AWARD OF TIIK FIHHEKY C0MMI8MION. PrnvincoH tlii' llnitcil SfdtoHiinonl tlioonly tnnrkot nnd the «1iitioM ptiiil on tlitf «>x|>oi1utioii of Hiirli IInIi t'roin tlio liritJHli l'i'(iviiir«'M lH>(nr(^ tlio Tnstly of WiiHliiiiKtoii tiiiiuiititt'il to ti very Iiuk*^ mumi oC tiioni'y iitiiiuiilly, hihI tlut upuiiiiii; ot tliu (InittMl SttitcH IVIurki't by ttici Trt'iiry oC VViiM|iiii;;tiin to Rucli rxpoi'tutioii liiiH Ikmmi u vtM'y );r('iit Uciiclit to th» poopli! oi ihe liritiHli I'roviiMU'H, llitli For Hnvcral yctirH past tlio itiNliort^ llslHTicN of tlio ItritiHli I'ror. iiH'OH havt; not l)<««'ii ho iiiik^Ii n'Nort«Ml to liy Unitnl Stat(>M liNluTiiM-n n tlicy wen« foriiu'riy ami tli»\v an» la'iiiK I»in.s aiitl l«'w,s n'.sort«Ml to every yoar l>y hih!|i lUluMtiu'ii — one rcaMon for thJH fatrt \n tlio (;haii);e in tlie inoiU'H of llsiiinK pursued by stii-h tisbcrnicn, Atiotbi'i- is tbt^ fact that the mackerel llsliery on tJie roasts of the itiirish I'rovinees has lor several years past been detilinini; while it has been improving i m years except where I have expressed a different meaning;. WILLIAM IIAVKS Sworn to befoic me at Halifax in the County of Halifax in the I'rov ince of Nova Scotia this 13th day of June A I) 1H77 WM McKEKKON (Seal.) yotarif J'lihlir No. 208. The KvnmiiKitioH of dapfain William A. MoUoif of Great St. iMirrm yeir/oHiidlaml taken before George Henry Einernon Attorneij at Imk. Examiner The said witness bein^ sworn saith — I am a native of Newfoundlanl and am U7 years of ajje. J have been enjrn«vd in the Fislierybii.siiii<, all my life. Tln-re is very little inshore-fishing done l>y American FiMi erman within three miles of the Coast of Newfoundland except bail- takiuj^. There is no mackerel Hsh in/,' done on the Coast of Newl'oiiinl land by either American or ISritish fisherman. There is no boat-li.sliiii;,' done on the inshore by American lishernmn 1 was eijjht years lisliiiii out of Gloucester six years of which 1 was Master — I am therefore pti fectly acquainted with the American fishing in the Maratime I'roviiues, 1 have never known the American Fisherman avail themselves ot tlifi privilege of landing to dry nets, cure fish or use the shore for any otlitrl l)nrpose in this Colony except for obtaining Water The tisherMiainil Newfoundland benefit very materially by intercourse with Anieri(:iii( fisherman both by tralUc in bait, ice and lishing-stores and the selli by American fisherman within the Colony, of their small lish and nil 1 think that the importance of the intercourse of American fi.slieiniii with Jjiitish tisherman cannot at present be estimated. Every Aiiuril can Fishing vessel that comes to Newfoundland cannot get out iimirf| an outlay of from sixty to seventy dollars for bait and ice. The i)riti>lil fisheries for the past few years have been less productive and remumr*! live to those engaged in them, than formerly. The shore fisheriesoj ON. ltlie«lntloHpi\nloii rtlM't'oro thoTn;ity ,li(>y iilltlilun.V, )«iiil ityof VViiHliiiit."<.n tli« i>c»»p**' "' ^'"' f the Hrltiwli I'rov Stat«'rt IImIh'Iiiiiii i H r»'H«»itt' tho dmnm' in tlif Jut in the tm'l tliat l»n>viiM'.«'M liuH idi I imi>n>vinn «»»iiiiin Stat«'K woiiM l>t' iio n. c<)iie»^w'<>«>'"* •'* "" tlH\v iii-M iM'Kiiiimi- ii,lly'bocoii»ii»« iiioir « mmle in Mui im^Hit ito.l tor tl.i' l»»^' i*'^ ,'ILI.IAM 11A\1'> ■ lliiUfiix ill the Tiov /'mcKKKIION „/• (hrat St. Lair WW. i-Hon Attonu'jf (li '-'i"' itivc of Newt'oaiKlliiii'l ,1 the Fishe^.v•l>^sim•|^ (Hie by Ameiican 1m>Ii founaiiiml except bait- ,0 Coast of Newtouna L'here is no boat-lislnnrf rtas ei^lit years fisliini Pi_-1 atn therefore ini L iMaratiine I'rovimes. jvail themselves ot m tlie sliore for any "^''*', liter The tisheraiuu ui k'ourso witli AiaenoMl [r-stores atul the sc ImS Iheir small tlsh and ml ,f Aineriean tisherinan imatea. Every Anieti \ cannot get out >.mk lit and ice. The lU.t^ oiUictive aiul renuimr* The shore tishenesoi AWARD OF rUK FIRIIKKY COMMIMHION. 3285 tlii< inshoro hnvt* Ween of very little valiip to tlioMfl promocntint; them Hither from the States or Ne\vfoiiiiilluiis the StatuH III' tlu' Provincial llshernian, who are much inf«>rior to the American ilihfrman, and are at least a century behintl the ukc in ihn manner of iiktciiiiiK tish. It the liritish llshermen employed as iiiu(;li capital and hitil as much etu'r^y and enterpristt as the Ameri(;an I'islicrmau I Itiiiove lliiit the Ameri(;an l<'ishermen (taunot compete on the Newfoundland loiiMt in catt^hin^ llsli. The only advantage derived l>y American Fish- erman from the Treaty of Wasliint>;ton 1S7I, is the advaiifaye of caich. 111^' liait ami ohiainiiiK ice winch is also of iiu-nl advanta;{e to N«>w idiiiKllanders in the way of Trallic. WILLIAM M )LL()V Taken before me at Saint Johns NewfoundlamI this 1st dav of Juno A I) 1X77 (ilCO ILV KMKKSON Ji: r.Kiiiiimr — No. '_'0!>. The e.mmhntUnn of hri (hlftin of llnstnn I'nilnl Statrs nf America Intt at jiriHnit of Saint JoIiu'h S'lirfitiinillanil takni btfore m»' (iiori/r lliury HmcrsoH ./»• I'Lvainintr — Tliis Witness bein;,' sworn, saith : — 1 am a native of th»' State of Maine but at present am lisliin;: in New- liiiiKlland 1 am thirty rt)ur years of aj^'c, and have been euKa^ed in the I ii>li('ry business about twenty years. The Anu'rican lisln'rman ilo not liHoamI have never used the inshore fisheries for cod lisliinjf. There is nil niacUerd flshinj,' on the Coast of Newfoundland. There is no boat- [tisliiii<; done by AauM'icans on the Coast of Newfoundland ICvimi the |H;iiik lisliiiifT has beme less lucrative and important within tln^ past years than it formerly was. To my Unowlcd;,'e there has been no liisi- made by the Americians of the privilege of landing on the Coast of .NVwI'oundland for curing the tlsh, dryinjif the m^ts, obtainin;^' their mm\. There is no «)bjt'(!t whatever to be olitaiiwd l»y such landing,'. American (Isherman {generally piinrhasii whatever tlnty require from the |]i('(i|)le of th(^ Island. The value to all provincial tisherman es|)e(Mally lid Newfoundlanders cannot be too hi<;h!y estimated (and will no doubt [bpof greater value in the future) of their intercjuirse with Anuuicans. Ivery Fishing vessel that enters the ports of Newfoumlland, bcl«>n<,'ing in Americans leaves at least Eighty dolljirs. Nearly all the AnuMicau islicrman punihaso ice, bait and stores and supplies in large tpiantities [u Newfoun«lland ami this trade is im-reasing very largely every year. iive repeatedly heard the lishernuiu of NewfoundlamI assort that it fas a great benelit to them to have constant inttacourse with AmeiicMUs loiisands of Barrels of bait would i)ass the shores of Ncwtoundiand icry year if the Americans did not come down to lairchasc them. This rude with the tisherman of Newfouiullaml for l>ait and \w is of great t'lH'lit to the Island and geiu'rally recognized to be so except l)y the jii'Kt' Miuchants of the Island. A great impetus has lu'cn given to the Isliiiiji-business in Newfoundland since the passing of thii W'asiiingtou piity 1.S71. The tra«lo of Americans with Newfoundlandeis has in- fi'iiscd at least One hundred per. cent, per annum, since the passing of pe Treaty and is steadily increasing with great advantage to all con- '■'■r'i, ■ t 3284 AWABD or TllK FIHIIKHY COMMieHION. coriMMl. ft Ik tlio r«'nl opinion of tlio TnliuliitutitM of Hi« Murntini<< I'rov. in('(*N cMiHTiiilly NowioutitlliUHl tliiit tlin inrlilciititl iidviintiiKi'iH lu !)« ilii'«'N<'nurnian in IliitiHli \Vui«>im IkIh of KHMit vuliio to llriiiHli KIslHM'nian in vciy K>'«*itt, iumI tiiat tlio llHliiiiiH on tilt* CouNt of Nuwfoundliind tiiiit I«'NNun in any way tin' ratrii uf ItiitiNii ilsiicrnian. If tiio MritiHii IUIht. man cnipioyi'd an rnucli capital and had uh nincli «'n«>iij:y and cntcriniM' UN Anin-ican liHlii*rnnin tli» Ann^rican WattM-n wonid l>«^ of inortt iiii|iiii'. tanci' to NewfouiHiiandnrH tlnia l\m llritiHii WaUMM arn to Aiiit'iirunH «>Hp«><;iaiiy an tluMo aru no niaclcorul tu bu cuu({iit on tint Ni^wfouiidUnil roiiHt % Tii(> ll.sliint;iMiNincNM ns a rnin docH not nial'o. LM(». The viaminat'um of llvurij .\, CithU n untire I'rorini't' 'loivn Mitsmt : Imt of prvHvnt of Saint Joint's SvnfomuHand tulan hq/'orc ntc ikotijc lliniij J'JimrNon, Examiner. Tliis witnosH Ikmii^ sworn saith : My name is Henry A. ('ol)l». I anr.'ii years of a);e and iiave been enKaK<'d in tlie eod and ntlier lislicries all my life. 1 luive been lisliin^; on tlie (iiand Hank tor a period of ten ,\t'aK It is not true that American Kisliermen use the insliore tlshery wiiliiii three mih>s for eodlishin;;'. Tliere are no mackerel on tlie ('uast ui !Newtonndland. Tliere is not any boatllshin^ done by American lishir men on the inshore llsheries ex(;ept baittakiii;;', whicli is seldom ilonc, as Anieri(^an FisheriiuMi are rarely eipiipped for bait-(!atchin^M>f anykiml, and are coiisecpiently driven tt) purchase from the Ninvfoiiiidliind. Tlic iiiNliore lisliing is of no value to Am*-iicaii lisluTiiiaii and has to iii;> kiiowledfio been of ^■ery little value to Jlritish-lishi'iiiien for the |iiht ten years I have never known, in all my experience, exteiidiii;; over ten years of American lislierman uvailinjr themselves of the piivilt'^i of hindiiifjon the Coast of Newfoumlland to dry nets, cure llsh itijui any other purpose. Since the Treaty of Washiii^'toii the niunht'r oi American tishin;^^- vessels has iy)t in(!reased on the coast of Newrouml land and the only advantajje derived by American lislierman is tla i jirivilejie of obtainini^ fresh bait from Newfoundland tlshermen. Tiid advantajjfe derived from intercourse with American tlsherinan, is vny great to Newfoundlanders, American fishinj; vessels call at the diilii ent ports on the South East and West of Newfoundland and buy bair, I Ice/ and tlshing stores to large amounts and sell their smalltlsh and oil Every fishing vessel entering a Newfoundland port exi»ends at leii!*!] Seventy live dollars every trip before she leaves. This is of gre;it ; vantage to the Newfoundland people especially in the outports wliirtj the tisherman is generally very poor and very destitute. It is true tlmtj the British fisheries are much less productive and less valuable tliaul they formerly were and the inshore fishery's ou the coast of NewfoiiniH laud has beeu reduced about fifty per cent, iu quantity and value witliiQI ON. iM Muriitliiu^ I'rov. iMlviintiiKt's 111 111' IntlKli NViUi'io M \^ \ tlmt tliM lUlnrii"* I ttii^ Uil»l«l« ""''"'' 'IK> »"•' «'iil«'Hiii<.i l»r of iiioir imimi lUO tt» AllUMililllH tho NowloiiinU.nul uiitof Ciipitiil iiihI iirioiiK iiH'iiiis til liv. LKVl (IIUIM IN JuJv A 1) IHT7 Jiiamino — fvrc me (U*>rijc H^nr^J iiy A. t5o'>»»- '"'"-'' lotlM'rllslu'rit'salltiiy L ihtUmI oI" tt'ii .MiUH. Mshori! llshfiy nmHhh ,.,vl oil till' Const (il i^ Wy AiMt'iiciUi li'*!!''! iU;ii if* Mt'ltloiii tli'iit. ,mt<'lii>»H'>'"''">'\","'' .N('\vlouiitUiiu«l. 'lli>' Inuau ami liii« to my ,liiTmen for tlu' rast jeiMH', extfiHlinu "\''' Lives of ilio i)iivilt';it' y nets, i'Miv llshoitor imtoii the imnilMT <|i 1 .coast of NeNvlt)iiii|l loan nshHinaii is t b laml nslu'nneii. ll'^| •ail lishermaii, is v'l} ,si'l8 call at tluMJuH julland aiul buy bail Ueir .smallllsh am oil i)ort expends at least This is of sff'^V ,1 the outi.oit.s NV hert ^titute. It is true li ind less valuable tliM le coast of NyNvlouju entity and value witliiB AWARD or TIfK FIMIIKRY COMMISSION. 32H5 the pnKt ton y«Mir«. It In the opinion of moNt rnarilitne provliirial tiMh- (TMit'ii that the inridetital udvaiituKeM d«d by Mifiii tVt)iii iiitenoiirHi^ mill Atneriniti tlshernieti are v«>r> ur«>at ; ami tlmt tliti presence of AiiH'ricati ilHliertiiaii in Itritish WuIith is not detrimental to tli«< intorestH I.I liiitiNli llHhermen, «'itln'r by depniiatiiiK llir value «tf the tlsli by I'oiiipetition, or decreuNint; till* ('ateli of IImIi in tim provinetvs. If the lint ihIi llshermen wrre more emMtfelie and put inoio nipital inl«» tln«ir IlilitTies and had the nanm rlnsM of vensrh pioKcnitiiiK the ll.>*ln'ry that llui Anierieans hav«>, the Maekrrel Ihhin^ of the IJnitt-d States would IxMif ineNtiinable value to them as they have no niaeUerel Ihliin^' in Ni'wloiindland. I do not thinU there has be«>n any advantage obtained by Ameriean iWiicrinen by the Treaty of Washington exeept takint; bait, i'he only MiicUerel IIhIiIii); that the Americans prosecuted in Mritish Wiiters iM'loie the passinu of the Treaty was at lliy <'haleiir, anil that has Itili'd from natiiriil eauNes, iMiNKv A conn. Taken before mu at Saint .)ohn.s Newfoundland this L'nd day of .liiti.f A M IH77. OKO. II.Y KMKKSON .In l!damiiut' No. L'll. Tlueraminalhno/CyrenhiH liroirn of TtrpnuMcj/ in the hlnndof SvirJ'oitnd kiiil (Jormcrly of thn State of Maine U. S.j taken before me at Snint 'IoIih'h Seicfoundlandf Tliis WitneHH beinjj sworn saitli : — I am il native of Hiicksport in the State of Maine United States of AiiuM'iea but at present residini; in Trepas.sey in the Island of Xewfoiind land. I am sixty nine years of ai;e. I have been enj^at^iMl in the I'ishery biisiiieHB about forty years. It is not true that American fisherman use tl'<> inshore flshories within three miles of the Coast of Newfoundland forced or other fishing. American fisherman fish either on the (iraml Hank, St. Peters Bank or lianquero. There is no mackerel on the Coast of Newfoundland. The inshore fishery is of little or no value to Amer- ican llshorman. It is never proseith««r ('aiiiuliiiii or Novu Ht'otiiiii liMlMMUiiiii. CYUKNirs IlltOWN TakiMi biloi'u luu tit 8uiiil JuIiiim NuwroiiiMlltiiiil iIiIm '.'ml «luy of .luK W77. ^ (}K(). II.V KMKUSON .lit No. '212. The Kjaminalinn of W'illinm Fiht/mtld of StJolin'M S'lir/ountllaml tuknt bt'/ore me lientnv llvnfif Hiiii-rtinn Hrninimr, Tliii4 MitiicNH Ix'iiiK Nworii Niiitli : — I uiii tliiily iiitu^ yfai-M ofu;;!'. I liuvu Im><>ii «>nKiiKOv(*r did not do tiics now iiHo th» inNhoruliHiu'ry within tinro uiIIcm for tlio piirpoHCM of cod or m\ other tlMhiii);«X(;opt tho tnkinuof hint Tlicn^ iH not any niarkiMi'l llxli in^ on thouoaHtof Newfoundland by either American of ItritiNli i'lMlitr men. There in no boat llMhiiiK by tlie AnierieauH on the <'oaNt of New fonndlandutall. American liHhermeii do not come prepared for insliorc flNhiuK. IiiHhoru tiHhint; would not be prolltabie to Americans an tln' iuMhore IIhIi would iu)t llnd a markt^t in ilie United Htales owiti^ to tin •miillneHs of the IIhIi. AniericMinN do not make unc in any way ot tin prlvile(;e grunted under the Treaty ot W'aNhinKton of landing; on tin coHMt of Newfoundland to cure IImIi, dry lU'ts or procure wood and wiitn, AnicricauH buy their wood and water iVom the Newfoundlanders. Tin; only lulvuntaKe derived by Amerieans under the Above Treaty is tin' privile({e of procuring' frcNh liait and ice which they always, with tVw exceptiouH, purchase in the dilVereiit portH of Newfoundland. 1 tliint. that the presence of American tIshernuMi in tint portH of NewfonntlliiiHl purcha.«4inK storcN bait ice «!Cc \h of ^rcat advantage to the people ut tli> (.'olony and \h of great valiu> to the ilHliennen of the provinces in tin way of itu;reased trallic and will be of more importance to tin; peoplriii the future. I ]iaid last year llfty cents \)vr hundreil to NewfounilliiiKlch for iSr of taking and curing ilsh and also la ^u ing labour to Newfoundland fishermen ; which tlu'y are not at all tinn< able to obtain. Half the population of Newfoundland are thrown oiii| of employment when the inshore llshery fails. WILLIAM + FITZGEUAM* murk Taken before me at Saint Johns this 5th day of June A D 1877 . (lEO II. Y EMEUSON Jk AWAKi) or run kiniikry coMMiMioir. No. 'J 1.1. 3287 I, Clmrlim II Niilo MiiNtor of Hvh K<|wtuil K. W«liMtiM- of (iloiircittiT 4ImI foniHTly Mi»Mh>i tt\' Sfli'H |l<M|i«r, wiim bom iti (tloiircNtcr, tiiii tJ yi>ar* of iit(i« ik liitvo In><>ii ctiKiiKt*!! Ill till* llHlM>rl(>M lor 'JO yisirn iV coiitiniioiiHiy (•ii|,'ikt{<>«| In llio (iriiii«l lliiiik llHlo'iy torlli« piiit lw«*lvf ( I'J) yMuiM lukiiit{ C'hI iSi llitlllMil lor llit« llrHt iiiiio yiMirM oltluliitxl my liiiii ii|hiii tin* ll.inkH — iisiiully luirrylitK Iroiii Iioiim^ i\ I'lnv liiirrrlM ol' l'ot{i(« SIIvimh to prociire lilt' llrHt iUh tV ultt'rwiirilM HmIii>m im'iin A: other r(«liiNi« piiriM of lUh, uImu iisi'iii^ Itirit iiM'iit, — It liir^tt *|tiiuitity Im'Iii^ olitniiietl l>y nitcliin^ tlio lla^iloti Willi A liook — tor tli<^ liiNt tlirmt yisirH I liiivi^ lioii;;lit iii> liuit of tli«< iiiliiiliitaiitM of Newrounillund piiylii({ niNlt lor the hiiiim*. the hohlliit; ol'liiiil l»y triipN uiiil pomiiiM liy the [leople of N. V. eiiuliles IH to ohtuill mil liitit readily iV Im u Moiirtie of ineotiie to them iiimI coiiveiiieiiee to uh —the people will often cliitHe iih for iiiileM for an oppoitiiiiily to bait an Aiiiei'iean lUherinan, — we meet their lioatM oil Ht. Peters seekiiit; for Aiiieriean veNNelM to Hell them liait, — there heiii);: a very aetive eomputi- iioii ill Meiliii^ Imit and NiipplieM the Newfoiiiidlaiid(>rs (tarry thin bait to .St I'eterH to Hell to the I'^reiieli vennelH iV we eoiild eiiHily pro<;iir(* thin Imit there, iih there are thoiiHatidN of barrels annually thrown overboaril till' want of II market iV the only object in K<>>>iK t'> Newloundland jh to iilitiiin thu bait in ItH frenheHt Htate — I never have eaiit;lit any bait at N. K. iMit have pnrchaHed it when I have ^ot any at N, I''. — I have never known any Ameriean vensel to eati^h bait at Newfoundland haviiiK uiii- litnnly niirchased the Hiiine. 1 paid on thiH liiHt voya^^e, ending Aii^' 1(>. IH77, '!*L'7I t(» tin; inhabit- ants of N. K. for bait I know that tlilH trade is of (;reat advanta^'e to tlii> inhabitants of Newloundland, ikH our V(>nh(>Ih leave from one to two thonsaiiil dollars ^oiiie days, in Homo of the little ('oveM of the (!oast — the Sijiiid are ciitirfly iiselesH extnipt for the purposes of bait, and the Ameriean and I'lciich Meet provide th«^ only market — there is about -'lO Ameri(;an ves- h'Ih eii^a^fed in the Mank llshery — a portion — say one half— piircdiase liiiit at Ninvfoiuidland I have never 4!aii;;ht any Halibut or (!otl within line liiindred *S: tifty miles of the Itritish shores the ameriean < 'od v\: il.ilihiit tishery Ix^iii); entirely a deep sea or ocean llshery and I knew «>f no Aiiiei'i(;an vessels taking: ('od or Halibut within three miles of tho Mmri' — there is no American vcmscI engaged in \\u' Codlishcry that car- mn seines or nets to procure bait ciiaj:li:8 n m;t1': coMM()N\viOAi;ni OF MAssA("in;si:TTs KssKX ss. August l^li; IS77 Tlu'ii personally appeared the above named (Charles II. Niite and made oatli that all the above Ntateineiits by him subscribed are true to the lu'st of his knowledge iS: belief before me (Heal.) DAVID W. LOW yutari/ VuU'iO No. 214. 1, .loseph Oakley, Master of the Schooner Sarah 1'. Ayer of (Jlouces- ter do depose and say that I was born hi Nova Scotia, am 29 years of age, have been continuously engaged in the ttsheries— the last eight yeartj of which being out of Gloucester & always to the Grand Banks. •^^.■•». \n. '•'.. «t! ■m X^^^\ 8288 AWAUD OP THE FISHERY COMMI8J3ION. I have read the statement of Captain Charles IT. Nute of Sch Edwai K. Webster, and in all its features and statements it accords witli n own experience & is perfectly true — on my last trip to Grand Jlaiik took my bait at Newfoundland and paid ii!20!>,7(> cash for the Naiiic- have never canght llsh or halibut while in an American vessel witliiii miles of the shore — the American Cod & halibut fishery is entin-ly deep-sea or ocean fishery. I consider the bait business of NewfoiiiK land of vastly more profit to the inhabitants than convenience or pioi to the Americans and I believe that were it not for this trade of bait supplies to the American fleet; the inhabitants would sutler great di tress & poverty, as their stock in trade would be entirely useless, wei it not for our fleet to purchase them, JOSEPH OAKLKY COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss. Gloucester Aug. 13th 1877. Then personally appeared the above named Joseph Oakley and mad oath that all the above statements by him subscribed are true to tL best of his knowledge and belief before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary PiibUc No. 215. I, Mathew McDonald Master of the Sch Clara B. Chapman, and siil sequently of the Sch Webster Sanborn was born in Prince Edwai Island am twenty six years of age, have been engaged in the fisberic from Gloucester for the past eight years — principally on the Grau Banks, taking Codfish & halibut. I have used for bait principally he ring & squid in all cases purchasing the same of the inhabitants of Nov foundland & paying Cash for the same at the rate of $3. per Bbl. t( Herring and 50 Cts per 100 for Squid — the people there being auxioi to sell the same to the American fishermen — I have never attempte to catch any bait on the Coast of N. F. — am well acquainted with tl manner in which bait is obtained by the American fishermen & I kno that all with which I am acquainted buy their bait — paying casli ft the same, — have never known of but one casein which the bait was caug — one vessel taking a few Bbls of Squid at Conception Bay, N. F. have never fished for, Cod or Halibut on the British shores, nor do know of any American vessel ever taking these fish within the limit three miles from the shore, the Cod & Halibut fisheries, as prosecut( by the American fishermen, is entirely a deep-sea fishery. MATHEW MCDONALD ss. State op Massachusets » County of Essex \ Gloucester Aug 13th 1877. Then personally appeared the within named Mathew McDonald, Ma ter of Sch. Clara B. Chapman, and made oath that the within stateme by him subscribed is true Before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary Puhlk JOSEPH OAKLEY JESTER Aug 13th 1877. Mathew McDonald, Mas hat the within statemeut AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 210. 3289 m Examination of Vatrich Wahh of St. JnlnVs yctrfoundland taken before me George Henry EmevHonjr Examiner — This witnosH being sworn saith — I am forty three years of ago and liavo been engaged in the Fishery since I was fourteen j'ears ohl. I am Master of a Newfouiidhind Stfaiii IJait Ski ft", a vessel belonging to the Honorable Ambrose Shea of St John's Newfoundland, and used by him for procuring bait for the Fish- ermen of Nowfoundland. I never knew the American fishermen use the inshore shore fishery for Cod or other fishing. Wo have no mackerel on the Coast of this Ishmd. The American fisherman frequent our Harbors for the purpose of procuring bait to prosecute the fishery on the Banks of Newfoundland. They purchaso always and do not catch it themselves. The fishermen of Newfoundland benefit by this traffic with the American fishermen in bait and ice. The Newfoundland fishermen can procure plenty of bait when it is impossible to catch fish, which bait the Americans purchase from him at the rate of 40 to 50 cents per hundred. This is of inestima- ble value to Newfoundlanders as the inshore fishery on this Coast for the past ten years has been very unproductive while there has been a great quantity of bait, which if it were not for the purchase by the American fishermen would be perfectly useless to any one. his TATRICK X WALSH. mark. Taken before me at Saint Johns Nowfoundland this 4th day of June A D 1877 GEO. H. Y EMERSON Jb No. 217. Examination of Captain James Broicn of Boston, Mass : at present of Saint John's taken before me George Henry Emerson, Examiner. This witness being sworn saith : — I am thirty two years of age and have been engaged in the Bank fishery on the Coast of Newfoundland for the past fifteen years. The American fisherman do not use the inshore fisheries within three miles of the Coast of Newfoundland for either Cod or other fishing, except for taking bait. American fishermep always buy their bait on the coast of Newfoundland from the Newfoundland fishermen. The is no mack- erel fishing on the Coast of Newfoundland. There is no boat-fishing by the Americans on the Coast of Newfoundland. I have never known American fishermen land on the Coast of Newfoundland to dry nets, cure fish or for any other purpose. There is no necessity of American Fishermen landing in Newfoundland except for the purpose of purchasing bait. Ice, and fishing stores. American fishermen always purchase bait. They never catch their own bait. The Americans never come prepared, and find it cheaper to purchase bait, than to bring nets and gear from the States, to catch it with, An American fishing vessel would want about fifty barrels of Herring for bait, or about twenty thousand squids. Herring average about forty dollars for fifty barrels of Herring, and about forty cents per Hundred for squids — I think that the traffic between the American fisherman and the Newfoundland fisherman is of m W ' ..;.< -■•• '.K ll 3i u. 'i ',1' * ^ I p.; ■m 3290 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. great importance to the Nowfouiidlander, in putting into circulution among the people of the Western Coast a great deal of money and tlio facility of obtaining by the Newfoundlander from the Americans pro- visions at a cheaper rate than can be obtained from the Newfoiiudlaud Merchant, whose ])ricos are exceedingly high. The intercourse ot American and Newfoundland flsherman is also of great importance ia improving the manners and habits of the Newfoundlander especially in the manner of catching fish and in improving generally the status of the Newfoundland tlsherman who is at least half a centuar^' behind the age even in obtaining and curing fish which is his only means of .sup- port. I think the American flshermen leave about sixty thousand dol- lars a years in Newfoundland and all this money is spent among the fishermen and not among the merchants. This must be of inestiniable value to the people of Newfoundland who are a very people and have very little money among them — JAMES lUtOWN Taken before me at Siiint Johns aforesaid this 4th day of June A D GEO. H. Y EMEKSON Je Examiner No. 218. I. John H. McKinnon a native of Cape Breton N. S. aged 28 years Master of Schooner llutherford B. Hayes of Gloucester, Mass. on oath deposes and says that in 1875 he was Master of Schooner Mary Low of Gloucester Mass. and was engaged in the Grand Bank Fishing for Cod and Halibut, catching them with Trawls baited mostly with Herring purchased in Hermitage Bay Newfoundland, that I have never caught any bait myself but they the Newfoundlanders have asked my Crew to help them catch the bait, but I did not get it any cheaper on that account. My experience has been that no American Vessel has caught their own bait but occasionally as a favor or to get their bait quicker have aided the Newfoundland fishermen in catching it. paying in full for it. American fishermen do not carry Nets or anything to take bait with, except a few Squid Jigs — I never took any Cotlfish or Halibut within three miles of the coast of Newfoundland or British Provinces while I have been in an American Vessel, and do not believe an Ameri- can Vessel does it, except to get a fresh fish to eat. All their Cod iS: Halibut Fisheries fire deep Sea fishei.:es. 1 have i)nrchased Ice in New- foundland lor which nearly double was paid for it more than Ice sold for in Gloucester. All the supplies wanted for Vessel use is a great deal higher in Newfoundland and the Inhabitants are making money from their trade with American Vessels — In selling to American Vessels I consider it is worth much more to them than the privilege of buying is. to us, as the markets of the French Islands are open to us. and the bait would seek that Market were the Ports of Newfoundland closed to American Fishermen, a'nd 1 think it is made a market for their bait now, to considerable extent. I have been engaged in the Cod & Halibut fisheries for the past five years having been lour years Skipper or Master. JOHN McKINNON State of Massachusetts > County of Essex ) Gloucester Aug. 13th, 1877 Then personally appeared the above named John McKinnon and sub- scribed and made oath that the foregoing statement is true. Before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary Public ss ON. g into circulation of money ami the 16 Americans pro- file Newfouudlaud 'he intercourse ol reat importance iu aniler especially in rally the status of entuary behina the )nly means of sup- iixty thousand dol- 8 spent among the t bo of inestimable rv people and have AMES liUOWN ih day of June A D klEKSON JR Examiner ^. S. aged 28 years loucoster, Mass. ou T of Schooner Mary 3 rand Bank Fishing baited mostly with id, that I have never iders have asked my et it any cheaper on imerican Vessel has • or to get their bait 1 catching it. paying s or any tiling to take y Codtisb or Halibut >r British Provinces lot believe an Auieii- It. All their Cod & urchased Ice in New- lore than Ice sold tor I use is a great deal making money from J American Vessels I rivilege of buying is. }u to us. and the bait rfoundland closed to market for their bait eries for the past five 9HN McKINNON ER Aug. 13th, 1877 Q McKinnou and sub- It is true. Before me ,OW Notary Public AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 219. 3291 1. John Cur/on a native of Pictou Nova Scotia. Master of Schooner Mist of Gloucettter Massachusetts Aged 35 years on oath depose and say that 1 have been engaged in the fishing business, nine years, Cod & lialibut Fishing wholly, with exception of one trip after Mackerel, have fished on Grand Bank, and Georges Banks. In fishing on the Grand lianks I have bought my bait, paying cash have procured them in For< tuue. Tar and Conception Bays iu Newfoundland, paying from 20c to 75c per hundred for Squid and from $2'* to $30 for baiting our Schooner for the voyage. I have purchased Ship Stores and Ice in Newfoundland always paying more than I could have bought for at home, they asking the highest prices for everything — I have never carried Nets or anything to catch bait and know of no vessel (American) that has. the trade with American vessels has been for three or four years past and they make money out of it I do not know what they would do without us for their Squid would be worthless without our trade, and their Herring wo Id be almost wortless to them except what few they could sell at the French Islands. If prevented from purchasing bait and supplies in Newfound- land, American fishermen could go to the French Islands and get plenty, and their other supplies much cheaper. That 1 consider that their chance to sell to American Fishermen is worth a great deal more to them than our privilege to go there and pur- chase, for doz/ens are running after you to sell bait and if they think you want supplies and ice the Merchants or Traders solicit vour trade. JOHN CUKZON COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss. Gloucester Aug 13th 1877 Then personally appeared John Curzon, above named, and made oath that all the above statements by hinv subscribed are true, before me J)AV1D W. LOW (Seal.) Xotary Fuhlic No. 220. I, John G. Dennis of Gloucester in the countj' of Essex and Com- monwealth of Massachusetts, being duly sworn do depose and say that I am forty years old, and have been engaged in the fishing business both as fishermen and in sending out vessels, for the last lifleen years I am now a member of the firm of Dennis and Aj'er. I send on an ave- rage two vessels each winter to Fortune Bay Newfoundland for herring — Herring are purchased from the inhabitants of Newfoundland and are never caught by the Americans — The vessels that go to Newfoundland for herring are not prepared for fishing they purchase herring paying from one to two dollars per barrel partly in money and jiartly in goods, provisions, &c these vessels all make entry at the Custom-Uouse and jiay duties upon the goods with which they purchase the herring — American vessels leave from ($25000,00) twenty-five thousand dollars to (8iO,000 00) forty thousand dollars Each year in the region of For- tune Bay — This is the only business the inhabitants of Fortune Bay have during the winter, and'the ouly market for their herring and with- out it they would not be able to live — American vessels have never been ordered off or forbidden to purchase herring on the coast of New foundland — 1 am also engaged in the cod fishery on the Grand Banks and my ves- '■"*.«';."? SS4 1 "** ■■ 3292 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. nels purchase bait on the Coast of New found land herring is t\w Itait principally used, ray vessels bring sonie bait from the United States but when they are out of it th'»y call at the various bays of Newfoiiini. land and purchase it there, No objection has ever been made to pur- chasing bait and supples on the Newfoundland const, the inhabitants are glad enough to sell it tons as it is a very profitable trade for thi>iii— The Newfoundland traders in bait and ice advertise in the Olouccsttr newspapers and send circulars to the various llshing firms asking tlioir custom — Bait is also purchased at the French Islands from the New- foundland jacks which come there to sell the heriing bait to the Fronch and American fishing vessels — I consider the herring fishery of New- foundland of no value to Americans, they never catch but only purchase the fish and pay the full value for them — American vessels never fish for cod or any other fish within three miles of the Coast of Newfound land. JOHN G. DENNIS COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS Essex ss Gloucester July 28th 1877 Then personally appeared the above named John G. Dennis nnd made oath that all the foregoing statements by him subscribed were true to the best of his knowledge and belief before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Notary Public No. 221. I Andrew Leighton of Gloucester in the county of Esaex and Com- monwealth of Massachusetts being duly sworn do depose and say that I am fifty-four years old, and have been engaged in the fishing business both as fishermen and dealer for over thirty years, I have been en- gaged in the Newfoundland herring trade for eighteen years, during the winter principally at Fortune Bay, The Method of doing business is to send vessels from here to purchase cargoes of frozen herring from the fishermen on that coast, which are then carried to the United States and there sold. I have never caught any herring on the coast of New- foundland and I have never known of any American vessel doing so. as it is much cheaper to buy them from the inhabitants who catch them in small boats, than to catch them ourselves — No objection has ever been made by the Government of Newtouudland to our purchasing her- ring there to my knowledge, the inhabitants are glad eneough to sell to us as they depeqd for their living entirely during the winter upon the trade with the American vessels — ANDREW LEIGHTON COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. Essex ss. Gloucester July 1877 Then personally appeared the abovenamed Andrew Leighton and made oath that all the foregoing statements by him subscribed are true to the best of his knowledge and belief, before me (Seal.) • DAVID W. LOW Notary Public erring is tii«"i l»ait JO IJnitiMl States ys of Newtbund- cen nmilo to vur- D, tbe inhal)itinit8 I trade for tlitMn— in the Olouct'stcr Jlrina asking thi-ir uls from tbe New- bait to tbe French g flsbery of ^>w- but only purcliase vessels never Hsh oast of Newfound IN G. DENNIS SETTS iU July 28tb 1877 hn Cr. Dennis and lu subscribed were [D W. LOW Notary PnhUc of Esaex and Com- depose and say that the Ashing business rs, I have been en- en years, during the doing business is to en herring from the a the United States an the coast of New- ican vessel doing so. ants who catch thera 9 objection has ever . our purchasing her- glad eneough to sell ring the winter upon iEW LEIGHTON USETTS. QCESTEB July 1877 ndrew Leighton and m subscribed are true ^VID W. LOW Notary Pubhe AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3293 No. 222. I Uobort J. Itceves of Ciloucester in the ('ounty of Essex and Com- iiioiiwcaltii of MasNa(;hnsetts, being duly .sworn do depoNo and say that I iitn thirty-nine years of ago and am the Cajttain of the threoiiiasted Kcliooner William I Hhepard of 47.") tons burden, that I have been engaged in the Newfoundland herring trade for about eight years and during that time 1 nuule a voyage each w inter to tho coast of Newfound- land usually to Fortune Bay for the purpose of purchasing cargoes of frozen herrings of the inhabitants, that I have never fi.slie»l for herring on that coast and have never known of any American vessels catching herring there, the usual course is for the American vessels to purchase their cargo from the tlsbermen paying them in gold from one to two dollars per barrel for the hering fresh, sometimes they pay for them in provisions but at the same rate as in money — Our ves.sels are not fur- ni.shed for lishing and do imt carry nets, they enter regularly at the Custom-house and when they cary goods with which to purchase the herring, they pay the duties — It is much cheaper for us to purchase the herring from ihe Newfoundland iishermeu than to catch them ourselves, the inhabitants of the country around Fortune Bay depend during the winter for tbeir living entirely upon tho trade with American vessels and without it they would soon starve ; the American vessels pay on an average each from six hundred to one thousand dollars for the herring — No objection has ever been made to the Americans purchasing herring, to my knowledge, the inhabitants are glad to have Americans come as it is tbe only market they have for their herring during the winter — ItOBKllT J. KEEVES COMMONWEALTU OF MASSACHUSETTS ES.SEX ss Gloucester July 1877 Then personally appeared tho abovenatned Itobert J. Reeves and made oath that — all tlio foregoing facts were true to the best of his knowledge and belief before me — (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Suiari/ riiblic No. 223. Gloucester, Aug 18, 1877 I Wm n Kirby was born in Keddington, Berkshire, England, and am 37 years of age and on oath do depose and say that I have been engaged in the American Fisheries 11) years I have been Master of the Schooners Eliza K Parker, B D Haskins Amos, Cutter, Ocean Lodge Kight Bowel", Chas A Ropes Cornelius Stokem, of Gloucester & Salem State of Mass. I have been engaged in the Bank Fisheries for Cod & Halibut & Gulf of St Lawrence for Mackerel «Si Newfoundland and JMagdelen Island Herring fishery. The American Cod & Halibut fishery is entirely a.deep sea fishery I always carried Clams and P<^rgie slivers and obtained the rest of my bait ou the Banks viz (fishes peas & squid) I never took any Codfish or Halibut within three miles of the shore and none within 30 miles of land I went fifteen seasons in the Gulf of St Lawrence, occupy- ing about 5 months each season My highest stock from the Gulf of St Lawrence was $ 6,400,00 and my lowest $2300,00 An American vessel mauned and equipped for a season of five months 3294 AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MMI8HI0N. in tho Gulf of St liawrtMice miiHt stock rtt loftNt |0,00(),00 to pay her bills. Very few vcHHels liave ptiiil their bills for the la«t I years in the Hay I carried no Seine but depended upon the hook & line I did not ciitdi one flfth of my Mackerel within three milcH. A purse seine as now iHcd cannot well be used inshore I ilressed most of my Mackerel outsidt^ whenever we dress inshore the Ushinj; boats from shore Mackerel Gills and ott'al to bait their trawls with. Most of the hIioio boats use trawls for fish. The Nova Scotia North Cape fishermen, that is Schooners, ^et all the Mackerel oti'al they can to bait their truwls. This bait is the best (or Cod fishing Mackerel fit for the Market iiiu ivorth too much to use for bait for Cod fish to any extent 1 have been Ten Winters to Newfoundland for llerring. I carried nets only one voyage and that was last winter. I set my nets two nights the second night they were stolen. I had ever before bought my Her- ring from the Newfoundland fishermen, paying at the rate of one Dollar per Bbl in gold When I first went to Newfouixlland the Inhabitants were very poor hardly owning a boat or net. They had no nnirket tor their Herring years ago except the Nova Scotia fishermen but upon tlu! advent of the Americans Heel the ])rices rose from 3 shillings up to 'IVii Shilling per Barrel. The Merchants on the west side of Newfoundland send vessels to Fortune Hay for Herring and once had them at their own price. Now the American fishermen having raised the price paid to tlie poor operative the British traders cannot have them at their own price and pay for them in trade consequently they the traders are jealous of the Americans and would do anything to keep them away. The Amer- icans have absolutely raised up tins population of poor operative fisher- men from poverty and made them independent iu their business and of the grinding and debasing influence of the trading capitalist, if the lish- ermen were in the hands of the trailers they would keep them at the Codfishery entirely and make them dependent on the traders, but now the fishermen can supply the American fieet with Herring and be inde- pendent and prosperous, there has long been this state of feeling tiiere and it has culminated in various acts of violence Many of the operative fishermen now have good houses and own boats and nets where formerly they had neither, except a log hut, and all this is derived from the trade with Americans. The Magdalen Island fishery for Herring is carried on in the following manner. The American vessels do not go prepared to catch Herriii},'. They go from Gloucester with 3 or 4 men and at Canso hire a Seine tS; Boats and men enough to handle it They pay for use of Seine 1((0 Dol- lars for a boat & man 40 Dollars for the trip generally hire 3 boats to each vessel and about six men The English fishermen haul the seine on shore with the Herring and the Americans, hire the herring broujiht of iu boats by the people of the Island and in case of packing hire women to dress and pack. The whole operative portion of the voyage being done by the inhabitants and they being paid for it. It is the general and univer^^al custom to pack them on the vessel as there are uo wliarves and it would be very unhandy to do the work on the beach I never knew of Americans being denied the right to seine Herring at the Mag- dalen Islands I Lave never paid any Port Charges at these Islands or Customs duties At Fortune Bay Newfoundland they make us pay duties on Barrels and salt whether they are lauded or not. < W. H. KIKBY AWAUD OP THE F18HKUY COMMISSION. COMMONWEALTH OK MASSACHUSETTS 3296 Coi'NTY OK Ehhkx ss. Gloik.'khteh Auj,'. IStli 1877 Then personally iipi)OiinMl tho ubovo ui\um\ Williiiin 11. Kirliy anil mmle oath that all tlin abov«i staMMncnts l»y him Hub.scribiHl are true, to the boHt of his knowletl^jti anil belief iH^fuie n»o (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW Xotatij I'iiblio No. 224. Olouckster Aiifj 17, 1877 I, Byron Hines do ilepose anil say that 1 was born in I'ubnieo, N, S, mill am 40 years of age am now niasteu of the Sch (irand Mastoe of I'abnieo N, S, am now engaKeil in llshing on the Grand Hanks and ilellveritifj my fish at Gloucester Mass, have been onjja{,'ed continously in tho Bank fishery mostly, for the past 25 years am thorouf^hly ac- qiiaintod with the manner of obtaining bait at Newfoundland & Nova Scotia my experience has been that all vessels American lOnglish and French have bought their bait and paid for it in Cash — a large part of the fishing business of New Foundland is engaged in supplying this bait and is very profitable to those engaged in it, more so than any other fishery ])ursued by them — the American fleet have not taken bait only within the last three years .at Newfoundland — I have never caught any bait there neither have I ever known any American vessel to catch bait at Newfoundland — there are 50 vessels of from 25 to 40 tons each constantly carrying bait from Newfoundland to the French Lslands (St Perre & Mequelon) and the American fleet buy their bait largely at these places We pay more for the bait, as such, than in other form in which it can be used, and other supplies in the same ratio. I have paid $3, per Bbl for sound Herring this spring at N, F, if we could not obtain this bait we could supply its place with porgies iS:, clam, <& I think to our advantage — the Newfoundland vessels board American vessels miles froai the Coast for the purpose of obtaining their trade and whole com- miinties have been built up and are in a prosperous condition wholly by this trade, — in going in to these |)lacos for bait the vessel will often lose 11 fortnights time — with my experience as a Bank fisherman I should say that it would be better to go without this bait, if idl would do so — the American Cod and hcidibut fishery is wholly a Bank or deep sea fishery and not a shore fishery in any sense BYllON UINES COMMON WEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS EssKx ss. Gloucester Aug 17th 1S77 Then ])er8onally appeared the above named Byron Hines and made oath that all the above statements by him subscribed are true, to the best of his knowledge »S: belief— before me (Seal.) DAVID W. LOW yotary rubtic No. 225. I William Greenleaf, Master of the Sch Chester K. Lawrence of Glou- cester, & formerly master of Schr's John S Presson, F. W. Homans, Polar Wave, & Phcenix of said Gloucestee, born at Westport, Me. am 20 years of age do depose & say that I have been engaged in the fisheries for the liil 329fi AWAKl) OF THK FIHHEKY C0MMI8HI0N. pnst 18yoar8 & inastor for tlio piist 10 yearn. Imvoboon continoiiHly In the (riaiid hatik ll.slit^ry tor tlio last ui^ht yinirH. I liavuruad tlioHtaUiuciit of Capt C. H. Nuto* of ScJi Kdwanl It. WubNtor ami a(;conliii^ to my expi'iiunco is trn« in ovory rcMpcct — tho lant voya^M 1 luado to Nowfoiiini land 1 paid ij)2H(i, for bait the ])ra(;ticu of biiyini; bait at Ntnvfoiindlaud \\m onlv vxiHted about tlireo yoarH — tliu inlialiutantH afordin^; every facility and anxiouH for the trade, — & have never known any American vetiHel tu catch Cod or JIalibut within three luileu of tiie sliore. WILLIAM GKKKNLKAF (*SoepaKe'2121.) COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS ES.SKX m. Olouckhter Anj? l.'Jth 1877. Then personally appeared tho above name,00 each for tho Herring bought Wlien I first visited Fortune Bay the people were ver^" poor this was the first commencement of the Herring trade by tho Americans most of them livirig in log huts and subsisting on Herring and some potatoes. Tho prices of Herring has been increased largely by tho American trade and at tho rates now asked there can be no money made by buying them for tho American market. The American demand for Herring can bo supplied from the Eastern shores of Maine and tho Bay of Fundy tho voyage is not so dangerous and can bo made more profitable. At the present time our winter & spring tU'ct is largely supplied with Herring from Maine it being brought fresh by rail direct and at about the same cost. The American fleet is not dependent on Newfoundland for bait but use it us a convenience which they vastly overpay in the i)rice paid for Herring at tho present time Last Winter tho Herring from Maine and Grand Menan completely glutted our Market and large quantities wore thrown overboard in the Harbor of Gloucester, being spoilt for want of cus tomers, HARVEY KNOWLTON Jn Mass > Essex s. s. ) Personally appeared said Knowlton, and made oath to the truth of the above Statement. Before me AARON PARSONS Justice of the Peace, IN. AWARD OF THE FIHIIKKY COMMISSION. 3297 oontlnouHly In tlio 1)1(1 Miu Htatniit'iit acconliiiK t<> my ii«l« to Newfomnl [(nvfoitiuUaiul liiiit iiijj tn'ory facility .morican vohhoI to GllKKNI.KAl- IKTTS , Auk 13th 1H77. un GroHiiU^af ami cribotl avo true U> 1) W. LOW Notary rublic I'KU Aug 18 1877 yeoiH of age iukI oilgiigt^l iu buyiiiK liters of 1S05, IStiO, nil fish trade of New ollar to One Dolliir the horring of the 1 hav« seen over .")(} tune liay avera^'int; i-Ht visitoa Fortiuio nnueneenient of the ■iiig in log huts aiul ices of Herring has I at the rates now in for tl«o Americiiii )e supplied from the le voyage is not so ho present time our •ring from Maine it be same cost. The or bait but use it as paid for Herring at Maine and Graiul an titles were throwu ilt for want of cus KNOWLTON JR oath to the truth of N PARSONS 'mtice of the Peace. No. 2L'7. Glouckstkii Aug 17, 1H77. I Dennis C Murphy wn« born nt St Johns Newfoundland am .ll* years of iige and on oath do depose and say that I liave been engiiut-din tliellHli- crics H) years from (iloneeNter on tlie (irand ItankH and HI peirre Hank lam tlioroighlv ueipnintud witli the llslierlcs of Nt^Nvfoundland. Tlie universal praeliee of the American Fishermen is to buy bait of the Inhabitants and pay caNh for it 1 have paid as low as on«' Dollar and as iiigh an three Dollars in gold per Barrel for Herring bait at Newfound- littal and from eighty (!ents to two Dollars per Hundred for Hqnid. It in only about .'{ yearH Ninee we have bought bait at Newfoundland I coiiltl buy bait at St peirres. 1 was the tirst Captain that bought bait ati'onception Hay when 1 was in thoGartie T Dagle The Inhabitants of Newfoundland asked Ten Dollars a Ton for lee and I would not pay it iind went up to 41° mirth and took some from an Iceberg. The (3un- totns authorities make us pay Water ta.\es, heavy pilotage, all the sup- pJicH are charged at the highest rate^. This trade with the Americans lins made whole communities prosperous there is no other market for tills bait except the tishing vessels, ami Herring and Squid are so plenty lliiit they are washed a shore on the beaches, there is a jealousy of tint American fishermen because they are more successfull than their people I liiive never caught any tlsh within throe miles of the Hritish shores. The American Cod and Halibut fisheries are exclusively a deep sea llsh- (ry within no national jurisdiction. 1 never knew of any American vessel selling fish at Newfoundland the small Co 1:1 3298 AWAKI) OF TIIR FISHERY 0OMMIH8ION. lunl Macki'n'l llMlicrlcs — of tlio wiiNm'h nt'tlio (iiilf of Ht [iuwrciicr ainl tlir CoiiHt of Liibrii(l(ir, in cliiirKt' of ii IImIiiiii; ncIiooiicI', — Wliuliu^ m i||h HtriiitMoi |{vll«> lsl(> and to tlio NoKIivvuhIm — (.'(MlllMliiii); In tint k»Ii iiml on tlit^ coiiHt of hiibratlor — And taking Markcnd in tin* Kay dc riialnn — In thr .yraiH IMfiO to isr>(( — I IInImmI in company with i\nifri(!an lloliti nion — ami ot'tiMi had thii nNtMif lh«'ir Ht'incH t(» draw my liait — witlioiii chaiK*' — vvillin(;ly ({rantod — and nhiroovor aiwayn kindly aHHiMtrd wIkmi r(M|nii'i>d — ami I know |ii>rm>n\^ liy them to 11 nnmlHT ot'onr <}aH|M'> flNhi'iiniMi — I do not lu'Mliato to Nay tlmt I lu'licvt' candidly — Hpoakin^ — and nnptt-JudinMl li('V(> that the urcatiu' thfir iiit(>r(;onrN«> — and d«>alln^'H with AniiMiiMi'i llNhcrnH'n In Oanadlan watrrH — tlit^ gri^atur tlit^y pioilt l»y tlM> inin conrHO : whicli In tho ('xpfi'i(>m;(> of lotnuM' yrarH, lor, ( 'ompaialivrly, Imii lew AnMM'icali HshtMincn havi; l)«H>n Hocn in tht'Hw watciH tor thi^ laNt tt-n ycaiH — I hav(« not Hi*m Anu'ricaiiK (uirin;; IIhIi or drying; m>tN on rlic mIiom's of tho (inir watiTH. — Mackond llishinK — wan tlu'ir child' IImIhmv— but tor tlii^ hiHt ton ycarH — this lUh han Itocn diNappi'ariiiK ; — and to HU(!h an 4>xtunc — that noir I wonid t',iniHid«M' — it, undonlitttdly — a vitv risky enterprise to lit out a schooner, uvun lioi i heru, — toungat^e in tlnu branch of the Dsherles. If ('anadian llshermen had the means — or were independent — tliiv could take their lish and oil to markets in the United Slates and niakt* (greater profits than Ameri(;an tl.shermen in their own ptirts, — Thai is obvions. Oiir fishing and coasting; stdiooners are abont — from forty to Heventy the tonsbnrthen; — the larp>r sl/ti costing abont four thonsainl dollars: — wages to men tire $10. ^u) lil'JO per month — and provisions mv mnch lower in price than in the Uniteil Htates. — it seems as if eiitft- prise — was wanting;, that more tlsli is not taken to the United States liy Canadians — while it is exempt from (hity. JOHN S ASCAII Declared and Subscribed to before me, this tlrst day of August 1S77, nt Uaspe Basin (Seal.) GEO: H. HOF.T U. a. COHHUI No. 229. Port of Oasim'j County and DisTnioT of GASfi^; Pkovince of Quehkc T — Benjamin Asselin, Master of the British schooner "Speedy," of Gaspe, do hereby solemnly declare, that I have been connected with tlif lishery business of the Gulf of St liuurence for ubout twenty four yenrs and tliat for the greater period of that time — the transportation of lish has been my chief employment; — between the lishery stations and the shipping ports; — that my vocation has att'orded mean experience ot the fisheries in the gulf, which is not excelled — if equalled — by others;— that from my own personal knowledge, I am aware that the mackoiel fishery has been declining for several years past and I consider that it has now become so reduced and precarious as to offer uo encourngeiuent for the pursuit of that enterprise in these waters. My occupation brings me annually, — during the fishing season,— in the close vicinity of many of the principal fishery stations in the GiiH- and 1 am enabled to say that American fishermen have not been ucciis tomed to laud on the shores to dry nets, cure fish &tc — as a practi(;('— so far as I have been able to observe ; — in accordance with the privilege granted to them by the Treaty of Washington of 1871. — N. AWARU OF THK FIHIIKKY f'OMMIHSIOV. 3299 M Iiii\vi»'iu'i« and —Wliiiliiiu III (III* ^^ ill tiii^ Kiiii )i'■'> '" lllOUt I'OIII' tllOIISilllll -ami provisions im^ t Hfeiiis as if t'litt'i lio UiiiU'tl Htati'shy fOIlN S A8CA1I lay of Aufc'ust !«• t, t): 11. HOLT U. IS. t'onHul CT OF CfASrl^i riNOK OF QUKHiu; oBuer ''Speedy," of 1 " ran8i)ortation ot llsli lery stations ami the ail experience ot the ualled— by others ;- ue thiit the inaeki'iol Hid I consider that it for no encouragement e fishing seasoiK-i" Btatious in the Ciiill- have not been accus &tc— as a practi(!e- uce with the privilege ,871.— T am positive that the inliabiltiiits of the roastM have derived tniirli Itfiiilll iVoiii tlit^ visits and iiit«'reoiirs4> of Aiiieilnin llsherinen I'ormerly-- by (he iiiipioveiiMMit III their tiiide— hy selliim supplies and bait. I liirtlier deidare that I liavi^ ^iven this suhjeet iiiiich lelleetion and ilft'iii it ri^ht to tVeely express my belief as herein noted. The wnrdH •>tv\entyloiir years *^ added on the inarijiii belong signing (laspo .lime IHtli 1H77 IIKN.IAMIN ASSKIdN lifclared and Mubsuribud tu, this eighteuiith day of .liim^ Ih77. before III)* at (iaspe (Heal.) (}K(): il. IIOI/F i'. »V. CoHHUl No. !•;»>. I'liovrNCK or QtrKnr.c DiHTItKVr OK (lAHlM'i DouoLAMToWN August tith IH77. I, the undersigned, — Luke M'Auley of Donglastown — in the Hay of (iii.H|ie do hereby solemnly declare as follows, vi/ — That 1 have been tlshiiig in and about the May of (iaspe tor about iDity years — without intermission — during the lishing seasons — taking iniiicipally codiish and mackerel— That from the year iHOli— until the {iii'Ni'iit time, the Mackerel llshery has been very poor — 1 have had inter- I'oiirse with a great many Aineri<;aii tishermen during my life time, — in tlie Hay of (Jaspe — previous to the year IStKi. — and very freipieiitly liavc Miltl them siipplitm — and often have received valuabh^ assistance from till-Ill on the lishing grounds, and I know of many of my neighbors who liave also received beneiits — without charge, at their hands — And my linn opinion is that they are of far more benelit to our llsherinen — in ilii'se waters — than detrimental to our succtessfid pursuit of the tisher- i)-s— In fact they were always ready and willing to render assistance to IIS lisliermeii when we needed — aiul 1 have heard many of my neighbors cxiucss themselves to thiselVect — I liave never seen American lishermen cure llsh or dry their nets on slioio My experience with American tishermen has been suith that I would lii'ltleased to see them at all times in our waters — Many years and many tiiiii's they have been to my house and spent hours with my family — and Ilmve never seen them misbehave themselves. I Our vessels cost so much less than American vessels — and sailing them at ho much less expense — there is no reason why Canadian lislier- iiit'ii conld not sell tisli and oil at a greater |>roHt in the markets of the L'liitt'd ytates than American llsherinen in their own ports — There is no llsherinen, now here, who has llshed in the liuy of llas|)e — iiigcr than 1 have — or as long. LUKE McAULEY Subscribed and declared before me this sixth day of August 1877 at jDouglastowu GEO: H DOLT (Heal.) U. S. Consul No. 23L Trovinoe of Quebec District and County of GasptS Gaspe Basin July 9th 1877 I, the undersigned,— John Howell— of Sandy Beach — Ga8p6, — Mas- |ter-.(aud part owner) of the Schooner " Undaunted"- of the Port of ■* '' i*\, ffj^ij ('fe V'J t^ 8300 AWAUD or TIIK riNllKRY I'OMMltiMiON. Obm|h''5 (111 — lM«rel>y «l«'rliirc noh'tiifily thiit— I iim now iilmiit forty i»i(;|it yriirM oC iiKc — tliiil nIiici^ (Iih iiki> of «'lt*v«*ii y<>iii'N, I hiiv«^ Immmi t'oiiMiiintly <'IIKIiK«'ril>M, — llotll ill llNltillit IIImI trilllH|M)lt- Iti^ lUh.— ill th(« x('«'|itiii|; llaiilHit wlii>ii ciiiiKht on tlm ||iii>h... (hut wo |y. — ) \Vt> ii yt'iirN nuit — .mi iin iiv«>riiK«>— TIm> llHlit>rli'N |iiiv«Mntly iliTliniMl lorn iiiiiiiImt oI',>ciiim piiHt — lloni wliiit niiiHi' — it \h iiii|)oMHil)l(> to Niiy — Miickcirl IInIi iiri* illHii|i|)«>iirlntf lioiii their lorni«*r iiniiiiI liniintH — Ahoiit I'h'vcii yciii'N iit{o — on tlio North MJile of AnticoHti — w«' MriniMl In our hoiitN — iilioiit two hundrcil hiirrclM in oii«« llHliiiiK mimihoii — hut nmu'm thnt liiiii' the Mackerel have appeareil there liiit onee in iiiiiiilierH — jiiid we have hail no other opportunity to make a haul of theiii — iim they elfar right away iiKxin — iniineijiately alter Hhowing theinNelveH — and we ciin not tell w here they ^o to. — AnieriiMUi flNhiii); veHMelM iimciI to be Heeii liy iih ill \nrnii iiuinberN about lirteeti yearM a(;o — but Hii.eo that time tlnv an- only rarely Keen — in our llHhint; wateiM — extreptnig near the iMaK American portM — and uiKlersell American tlshurmen in their own inarketH — if we poHNcsHed the enert^y to make the attempt — J declare Noleinnly to my l)tilief in the trutli of the forei;oing Htate- lueiit which 1 have luude with delibenitiuii. JOUN HOVVKI.L Declared and 8nb8cribcd to before me, this ninth day of July 1H77, at OaHpe HuHin: (Seal.) GEO: U MOLT— U. a. Comul No. 232. rROVINCE OP QUEDEO Gasp^: lUsiN June 23rd. 1H77 I. — William Howell — of Sandy Beach — GaHp(3 Bay, — do hereby sol- emnly declare— that my occupation Ih that of a tisherman — that. I have flHlied iu the bay of Ga8p<^ ; — otf Island of AnticoHti, and Straits of Lai)ra dor — for Mackerel — Godtish and Whales — Herring &c — for the past twenty six years — on the best Ashing grounds of the Gulf of St Law- reuce and adjacent waters. — In former years — say from 1854 — to l.S(55— I Lave beeu accustomed to take during the tisblng season — from liftceo r. AWAKI) or TIIK KiNllliKY COMMIMHION. 3301 iMHit forty plu'it iM'rti r«iiiHliiiitlv K mill truiiH|iiiit il'dl nliorf tliiiii iIm «»f Antitu>«ii, it on th«^ liiM'w — io not nitcli itiH' 1 yt'lirK nun— .nil iiuiiiIht ol'>«MrH iiNiiul huirntH — ,ti — W«' M«'llll'HH «•'"■•' III iiiiiiilM'rH— iiiitl ^iii—aM tlH'.Vflfiir vcH — himI \v»» niii a U) Im^ h»m'Ii Ity UK hut tlino tln\v i»i»^ ,.iir tliM Mi»K«li«lt'ii »^ of iihout thirty iIm'i- tt) lmv«« Mfi'ii Hhons— wltli th« H,iy,--inuiiy yt'iirs iMijihi of tlH^ hlion'K c fnun tlu'in— lor lih th»»y woiihl not lit; wiiH jjooti— III" of inoiu'y on the Imh'II nulling >«'K'i M'UHonx, with my with tlie llslu'iifH i«vwr upi'*''"' """'" ne now — iiippiiiK, »»"«• '"""• that wo couhi tiik«' I tlshernuMi in thi'ir le iitttMupt — le fori'K'oiuK "tiitc- OllN IIOWHMi jiy of July IHT ', ivt ): U HOLT — U. a. Conxul f UEllEO June23ra. IHh ay —do hereby sol- jrnian— that. I lii»v« ml Straits of Labra &(.— for the pnHt ^ho (iulf of St L.vw- •om 1854— to lHt55- jeasou— from atteeQ to tliirty liiirrcU of Mi(ck<*rt*l |H«r boat with two mon ; — that provioiiH to that tiiiio tilt* ratrli wiiN iiIhmiI oiik tliirtl liu't;«>r — liiit Mint^t tli«t,\i«ar IHU.'l till' Miirkt'i'fl lUhiM-y has Ih<«ii ihMriinliii; no that I hav«< not Immmi ahlti t«» catch iiion* tliaii from mit' to tlvi* liairi^N |M«t' boat — in tin* tlshiii;; mimnoiin —III thi* Iniy of (iiiNpo^whlrh in foniiiM' yrarn waM i'(iiiHiai'H wan one half barri'l of iiiarktMt*! i^a<'li year — 1 livti on Ihr hIioio oI tin* IlihiiitC ^niiinil anil pay particular atd'iii ion to tho niovvnuMilHof niacKi'ivl <><«poii- tiilly, — I lMy won't biii< ami u** *»it a^aiii— \, I am will awurt^ that th<*y «lo Npawn in our bay, — WlitMi wo ran I'atch any — it i.H only in Ntonny wnitliiM'— lip to the yoar iHTt^i. I havo ni>i>ii an many UN Sixty live Hail of American llHhinu vi'nmvIm— in the bay of (iaspi't— . HlliiiK raplill" with Markerol— at tin* Maine time. — Sinci* then— the niiiti' )mt of Aiiifri'taii vi'hmcIh tlMJiin^ in tlii> bay liaN bi>oti annually ili>cieiiHiii|{ — Kor the hut low yiMirs — tlii-y liavr rari'ly appeareil — Last yi'.ir two Aineriean llMlilit(( vcmncIm eaini* in but iliil not niioi-i>im1 in IIiiiIIiik llsh —I lia\i> eonvei'Mi'il with my neighbors— who aro aUo ilHliitriiiii'iit to oiir (iHhiMieH — but on the con- trary have b(>(Mi bi'iietlcial to iih by tlioir inteir.oiirMo in pnreliaHint; bait iiimI Hiipplii^H — liMHiilrM it JM li kiiowii fiiot tliiit WO have rau^lit iiioio .Mackerel wlion they have Iicimi in our proximity — irnfortunatdy for iih — Nince they have aeipiireil tlio ri^ht by the Treaty to the itiMhure HmU- vricN — wo have Hoeii Ionh of them than b(>fore — The hoiioNt anil luindiil boliof anil expresHion of the tlMhennon of the coast Ih that the Amorieau II.HlioriiuMi have ilone no ilamaKo to Mio (!a- iiailian tlHlierioH — Tlie KiMhery of the Maekeroi in the Provinee of (jiiobee is only pur- siii'il by i-atohiti); by boats — anil nets — No vossols litteiloiit for tins lish- eiy— Canailian tlshormeii — in the (iiilf lio not lish for ilaliltiit — l)iit occasionally they are taken on tho (;oil lines — My experieneo in the (Isherios has boon — as I havo obiorvoil — of many years — anil there are but few men on the Coast who do not know inu aH a tlshorman — 1 Hnbseribe to this with a full knowledt;e uf its Contents — VVILLIA.M IIOWKLIj Declared and siibaeribod to before ine this twonty third day of .June 1H77, at (iasiio liasin (Soul.) GEO: II IlOI/r U. IS. Consul No. 2.'};<. Peovinok of (ii'Kiii<:c DiSTKlCT AND ('OUNTY OP (lAMIM^;— Gasi'6 HA8IN .Inly L'Sth 1877 1— the Undersipfned, Charles Stewart— of Now Carlislo — (iaspo — Now— Master of the Schooner "11*. I'almer" of (iraspe— do hereby Holi'imily declare — as follow.s — I am about fifty-seven years of aye, — I'oraliout thirty years I have been in command of u vessel employod in the business of the ttsheries of the Gult of St Lawrence — and have had aiiiplo o|)portuuities to observe the yield of the various (Isherles along the Coasts and shoals of the Gulf for many years past. — It is many years cilice I have seen American Hshermen — (ishiii}; for Cod tlsh near the shuru and in all my experience ou the waters of the Gulf I have never ,'-/■'•' ':♦.,!;»'' 8.302 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. observed tlicin (Amcrienii flsliermoii) Cuiinj; (IkIi, or drying tlicir nets on shore — I have seen them buying bait and Supplies t'roru the resiiltius of the (!oastH — in former years; — and know of no Case — wiieic, in these dealings they have given ' to. -.r-i ^ fm '3m m • ' ^ ' ' ^'KL j| S^K' f"4»!lMlll9ll ■■r\ 3304 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. That I chartered my vcHHel for $225 per month, of Charles E. Faliciis of Salem, flmling my own SeincH and Gear. Charter of Vessel, 2 months $450 Seines, (2), Boat's Value, $2,(MM>, 2 months use .{(hi OutHts of Provisions, Lines, &c 4(K) 16 hands ® $30 per Month, 2 Months JHio Captain's Wages, 2 Months ir»() Insurance of Seines and Seine Boats .io Salt 140 $'-', 430 RECEIPTS. 10 bbls. No. I's ® $ 16, 170 " No. 2's'a; lOA, 120 " No. a-s'S) 7i, STOCK EXPENSE. $160 1,78.-) 000 $2,845 25 bbls. Togie bait, $102.50 Packing 300 bbls., and Barrels, &c., 525,00 087,50 $2,157.50 2,157.50 Actual loss by the voyage, 272.50 That this trip is the best one brought home from the Gulf of St Law- rence this season. That my men were hired on shares, but in the abuve estimate of the voyage, I have charged as wages what is paid to the crew of the schooner John Oerard, of Newburyport, whose whole crew aio 011 wages, instead of shares. I have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ten seasons, five of which as master. Have tished in all parts of the Gulf, and consider myselt well posted in its fisheries. I was master of schr Amos Cutter the last year previous to this. That I was in the Gulf four years ago. We took 4u barrels, not one fish of which, do I believe, we caught within the tbree mile limit from shore. Was //owe two and a half months, and tried every- where that mackerel are likely to be found in the Fall of the year with- out success. Six years ago, I was in the Gulf, in the schr Wm. J. Dale, and took 200 barrels in a two months voyage, all of which, with excep tiou of 20 barrels, were caught at the Magdalene Islands — the 20 barrels were caught 20 miles from shore of Cape Miscou. This trip sold for six dollars and fifty cents per barrel, and was a losing voyage. During the five seasons in the Gulf as master, I have brought home 1300 barrels of mackerel, not over 250 barrels were caught within three miles from the shore. In all my experience, during the ten years I have fished in the Galf of St. Lawrence, the vessel I was in myself, nor any vessel I ever saw or heard of, ever interfered with the boat fishermen in any manner, the best of feeling always existing between the American and English ^»ft- ermen. When anchored inshore, they always come aboard, and got a little bait; and I never knew, or heard of a fleet of American fishermen running in among boat fishermen for mackerel, but have seen British boats a great many times run out among the tieet while fishing. 5N. liarles E. FuIjpiis, »4r,o 4IK) <)(i(i ino • • • mm. • • • IK) $'-', 430 $100 900 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3305 $2,845 $102.50 ,, 525,00 087,50 $2,157.50 2,157.50 $ 272.50 tbe Gulf of St Law res, but in the above at is paid to tbe crew 86 whole crew are ou oiia, live of wbich as consider uiyselt well I Cutter tbe last year rs ago. We took 4u gbt witbin tbe tbree Uhs, and tried every- Pall of tbe year with- je sebr Wm. J. M(^ f wbicb, witb excev ands— the 20 barrels This trip sold for six voyage. During the home 1300 barrels of three miles from the e fished in the Gulf ny vessel 1 ever saw u in any manner, tbe can and English ^isft- le aboard, and got a American flsherineu _ut have seen British wrhile fishing. 1 have trans-shipped mackerel twice, the first time from Canso. The vessel was so long coming (four weelts) that we gained by it, mackerel rising in vuhie. I was tlien in the lUirbara Fritclue, and sent home 200 barrels. The secoml time, from CliarU)ttetown, by steamer, sending home 150 barrels from same schooner, costing $1.00 per barrel to get them home. In the six weeks following, 1 only took 40 barrels of mackerel, which was all I did take for that trip, besides what had been sent home, and would have made money not to have trans-shipped any mackerel home, but have taken them home in the schooiu'r. All tbe years I have been to tbe (iulf, $100, iu gold, each year, on an average, was paid to British traders for goods, for which we i>aid more than we could have procured them for at home. The last three years 1 have been tlshing ott" onr American shores in sclirs Glad TUUiuih and Rebecca M. Atwood. In tbe schr. Glad Tidinyn we landed 1750 barrels of mackerel, stocking $13,000 — net ntock. In the Atwood^ two years ago, we landed 900 barrels of mackerel, stocking $10,300, net. Last year, in same sebooner, (Rebecca M. Atwood), we landed 2700 barrels of mackerel, net stock, being $11,000. That the mackerel being small here, the first of season, and hearing of large quantities of mackerel being in the Bay, I was induced to go there, much to ray sorrow and regret now, for I found that I bad been deceived by tbe stories told, and despatches published iu the papers, to (haw American flsherineu to the Gulf of St. Lawrence this year. I feel satisfied, that bad I remained ou our own shores, I should have done uiuch better. Our shore mackerel are better in qualitv than Bav. WILLIAM HElilllCK. COMMONWEALTH OP MASSACHUSETTS, County of Essex, ss. Gloucester, Sept. 4th, 1877. Then personally appeared the above named William Herrick, and made oath that all his statements above subscribed are true, to the best of bis knowledge and belief, before me, (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW, Notary Public. No. 237. Gloucester, Aug. 28, 1877. I, Thomas H. W^bite, master of the schooner Hyperion, of Gloucester, Mass., do on oath depose and say : — 1 was born in Margaree, Cape Breton ; am 29 years of age ; have been engaged iu the fisheries for tbe past 17 years. 1 have been master of the S(!hooners John T. Tyler, Finance, and my present vessel, the Hyperion. I have just returned from a trip to the Gulf of St. Lawrence for mack- erel. I brought home 225 sea-barrels of mackerel, mostly twos. I com- menced to fit ray vessel on tbe Ist of July, and sailed from Gloucester oil the 5th ; arrived in the Bay on the 12th of July. My first uiackerel 1 took off East Point ou the hook, (I had no seine) about 15 wash barrels 2 miles from the shore, and of the remainder of the trip of mackerel we took certainly one-half inside of the three mile limit and the rest out- side. The charter of ray vessel is worth for two raonths $500. 00 My men's time is worth $30 per month ; 14 men at $30, 2 months each 900. 00 Outfits 000.00 i^ft~^,-«; b3 3C'»6 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. m ItiHuratico 1(10. (10 41 MblH. Biiit, $4 i)er bbl KH. iiii Packiiifj l')l.(H) Lines, &c LV). (10 Receipts : 205 paclied bbls. iit $1U $2;{00. 00 Net profit $3");. 00 Wl)en I first arrived in tlie Bay I tliought tlie prospect was good for a lar^'e catcli, when 1 came away it loolied altogetiier ditt'ereut. There was about 1(K) sail of American vessels there and those that we sjjoke would average from 25 to 50 birrels each. I have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence niackereling four seasons. My liighest stock for a whole Heason was $4,500. My lowest stock was $.'i,000. Any American ves- sel as they are now fitted must stock $4,500 for a seasons mackeroling in the Gulf to pay tlieir bills. I have fisheil part of two seasons otl' the American coast for mackerel, I made on one trip 52 dollars in 3 weeks. I also made three trips taking two months time and made over 100 dollars. 1 have been boat fishing from Margaree and it is the general practice to throw ottal overboard, I never heard of such a thing as injury to the fish from this source. If this had been an injury there wouhl not be any fish in the Gulf now, The American cod and halibut fishery is a deep sea fishery entirely. From my experience in the mackerel fisheries of the Gulf of St. Lawrence the American vessels do not take more than one third of their mackerel within three miles of the shore, that is not including the Magdulen Islands. There has been a good deal of trading by American vessels which is an advantiige tc the people. I am of the opinion that from my knowledge of the people there is a strong prejudice against the Ameri- can fishermen. I should .say this sentiment has been fostered for a pur- pose. As a general thing heretofore the people on the coast have been very friendly and never before have I heard any complaints by the boat fishermen or traders of the American fisheru)en. The jjcople were always glad to have them come to trade with them and it has been a great help in many ways to the people living near the shore to have the American fleet down there giving ein])loymeut to the men and buying of the farm- ers and traders. Any other idea-i I think must be born of prejudice as any one disposed to be fair will say. I know that the average catch of American vessels for the last 15 years in the Gulf of St. Lawrence is not over 350 barrels each. I have beeu one trip tc Newfoundland for herring. I bought my herring of the peo- ple and paid for it mostly in cash. It is of great advantage to the people of Newfoundland to have the Americans buy their herring. They would almost be in a starving condition if it were not for this trade. THOMAS H. WHITE. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, County op Essex, ss., Gloucester, August 28th, 1877. Then personally appeared the above named Thomas H. White ami made oath that all the above statesmeut by him subscribed are true, before me, DAVID W. LOW. (L. S.) Notary PnbHo, 38ION. 100.1111 10 1. (Ill ir»i.(M) L'.'t. tilt )ill«M:i.(Hi $2;iOO. DO AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 238. 3307 ?''i:. it r ijfaoT.oo )rosi>ect was good for tber (lift'ereut. There I thoao that wo spoke ;e been in the Gnlf ot best stock tor a whole . Any American ves- I seasons raackeroliiig [!an coast for mackerel, iiade three trips takiiii; lave been boat tlshiiig throw offal overboiinl, h from this source. II tish in the Gulf now, en sea fishery entirflv. heGulf of St. Lawrence third of their mackerel icluding the Ma{,Mliilen ig by American vessels le oi)inion that from my dice against the Amen been fostered for a pur- on the coast have been complaints by the bout ] The people were al\vil,v^ it has been a great heli> j •e to have the American and buying of the farm be born of prejudice as iKels for the last 15 years relseach. I have been] t my herring of the peO' advantage to the people ir herring. They would | for this trade. lOMAS H. WHITE. gust 28th, 1877. Thomas H. White andl im subscribed are trae,[ DAVID W. LOW. ^^otary Pvbhc. Oloucehter, Aug. 2S, 1877. I, (Miarles Lee, Master of tlie scihooner /. /. Clark, of Gloucester, on oath do depose and say, that I was born in New York, am iU years of ii<;(', and have been engiiged in the fisheries 20 years. 1 have Just returned from a trip to tlie Gulf of Ht. Lawrence. I commenced to lit my vessel for this trip on the 1st of July, sailed from GI()U(!ester on the fith of .Inly, arrived in the Hay on the l2tli of July. I caught my first mackerel off the east point V K. Lsland, taking one hundred barrels in the seine. This was outside of the three-mile limit; ciiught the rest of my tri|)— I.'IO barrels— on the hook, about 12 to ir» miles from the shore of Prince Edward Island. We set our seine about 20 times to take what mackerel we got in it. The eutire time cou- suined in this trip is Just two months. My vessel is nearly new; cost i»!»,(MlO. She is 70 tons new measurement, carries 14 men. My two Heines and boat cost me ti(l,r>00. The charter of my vessel is worth $2.50 per month $">00 00 The wear and tear of seines, boats, &c. . . 200 00 Wii^jTcs of 14 men two months, at $30 \wr miuitli 000 00 Ontfits, including i)rovisions, brls. salt etc 000 00 Insurance 100 00 Packing 17.'} 00 Lines, liooks, etc 2.5 00 Total cost of trip $2, 498 00 RECEIPTS. 2m barrels of mackerel, at $1U 2, 045 00 Net profit $147 00 With one exception, this is the best trip taken that I know of in the Bay this year. I spoke a number of American vessels when I came out of the Bay, and they would not average 25 brls. each. I have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence 13 seasons mackereling; about ten years as master of the vessel. During that time it was necessarj' to stock 5,000 dollars in a season, in the Baj', to pay the bills. I have, as a general thing, done much better than the average of American vessels in the Bay. Most of the time I have owned my vessel. I have also fished for mackerel on the American shore, and I have always done better there than in the Bay; take ten consecutive years, and I have landed double the amount of mackerel from shore mackereling than from Bay mackereling, and the American shore mackerel are of better quality and sell for more money. In all the niatkereling I have done in the Bay I have not taken one barrel in ten within three miles of the shore. The boat fishing from the shore is seldom, or ever, interfered with by the schooners, and I never knew of any boat being injured by our vessels. I have always found the people anxious for us to trade with them, and in the trans-shipment of mack- j erel a large portion used to be in British bottoms, before the steamer run. I have been to the Magdalens this Spring for herring, in the schooner Orient, 94 tons. Took 652 brls. of herring for Boston. We calculated i to take 1,400. We bought all our herring from the English seiners. I We hired boats at Causo to take the herring from the seine to our vea- r • ill 3308 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMIHSIOK. P\ gel; tliiH is the univeiHnl custom of Atiiericiiii voH«ielH. All the lulmr tind profits of the tukiii)? \h with the Uritish Hubjeuts. There was over r>() Niiil of Amerioiiii veHttelH there, and Muiiie got no herritii; ut all ; iiuil no veHsel while I was there got fully loaded. Both the lierriiig ami mackerel tUheries are very uncertain. In the Newfoundland herring iUhery I have alwnya bought and paid for the herring in cash. The Newfoundland CuMtoniH Onicertt olili^e American veHHclu to pay duties on barrels in which the herring atu packed, although the barrels are never landed or leave the vessels, hut are carried down there and brought away without touching tliH sliort'. They also charge light dues, averaging 25 dollars to each American ves- sel ; in fact, there are no fees neglected. The American cod and liali but fishery is purely a deep-sea fishery. The few American vessels tlmt go into the Gulf of St. Lawrence for codfish, take them 12 to 15 miles from the shore, or on Banks Bradley or Orphan. The throwing over- board of mackerel cleanings never iigured the mackerel or fish. I never hear'd of su«'li a thing. CHAKLES LEE. I, '}*) 'oples, having been on this trip, this last two montlis, to the Gul< • uawrence, hereby on oath declare that the statement is true in every partit;ular. JOUN F. PEEPLES. V.V MM.. .VFALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. County of Essex, ss'. Gloucester, Aug. 28, 1877. Then personally appeared the above named Charles Lee and John F. Peeples, and made oath that all the statements subscribed to by said Lee are true to the best of their knowledge and belief. Before me, (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW. Notary Puhlic. No. 239. I, .Joseph McPhee, of Gloucester, in the State of Massachusetts, sliip carpenter, on oath, depose and say, that I was born in Prince Edward Islatid ; that in the year 18G0 I was with my brother Capt. Daniel McPhee (now deceased) in sch. Daniel McPhee, of Gloucester, that said schooner fitted at the firm of Sinclair and Low, that on our first trip to the Gulf of St. Lawrence in the summer of 18G0, we took dories, that we tried for mackerel at Seven Island's, found none, got a few oti Bartiett's Cove, tried off Mount Louis and Madeline Kiver and went home in September with sixteen or seventeen barrels of mackerel. That Joseph Campbell was not in said schooner the trip above mentioned, nor wuit he one of the crew the fall trip of said schooner in which we caujjbt most of our trip of 125 bbls. of mackerel off Magdalen Islands, between 10 and 15 miles south east from Eutr^' Island. Some were caught oH' Malpeque and some off Margaree. That of said catch less than one tenth of them were caught within three miles from the shore; that we took no dories on our second trip and did not go to the Seven Islands. JOSEPH MoPHEE. United States of America, commonweath op massachusetts, County of Essex, s. s.. City of Gloucester. Personally appeared before me, this twenty-first day of September, A. D. 1877, the above-named Joseph McPhee, to me well known, audi J HON. lels. All thy liilior ,s. Tlieru was ovit herriuK At uU ; iuid th the horrlutc mul y» bought and \yM toiiiH OlHceiM ohline icb the Ueiriii« are jttve the vessels, but touchiuK the shore. t esich Americiui vi's- sricjui coil and hull ,inerica»i vessels tliiu them lli to lo inilt's The thiowiiiK over- erel or lish. 1 uever CHAKLES LEE. s last two months, to that the statement is UN F. PEEPLES. USETTS. TER, Aug. 28, 1877. iirles Lee and John F. jsoribeil to by said Lee vriD W. LOW. Notary PuhUc. »f Massachusetts, sliip orn in Prince Edward brother Capt. Daniel ' Gloucester, that said hat on our first trip to re took dories, that we got a few ott Bartlett's er and went home in ackerel. That Josepli ve mentioned, nor was jr in which we cannht lalen IslaUds, between Some were caught ofl _1 catch less than one )m the shore ; that we to the Seven Islands. rOSEPH McPHEB. AWARD OF THE FISIIEKY COMMISSION. 3309 ] -irst day of September, a me well known, auil nindo solemn oath to the truth of the foregoing statement by him sub- scribed. CYKUS STOHY, Xotary Puhlic in nnii for nnid County. No. 240. I, William Parsons, 2nd, of rrloucestor, in the State of Miissachusotta, on oath depose and say, that I am stMiior membi^r of the linn of William I'arHons, 2iid, & Co., owners and Utters of schooner (hnl liurnnidt;, that said siihooner went to the Gulf of St. Lawren<*e from said firm only two seasons 18(J4 and IStirt; that in 1H|U I tlnd in the crow list of said schooner the name of J. McDonald whose share of the trip in said schooner was $121.00; the vessels share was $2,1*42.84 ; that siiid v»^ssel was engaged in making her one voyage in 1804, from August 1st to November 10th, and packed out 402 barrets ol mackerel. WM. PARSONS, 2ud. COMMONWEALTII OF MASSACnUSETTS, Essex, ss., Gloucesteu, Sept. 21st, 1877. Then i»ersonally appeared the above named William Parsons, 2nd, and made oath that the above statement by him subscribed is true, before me, DAVID VV. LOW, Notary ruhlic. No. 241. I, Solomon Pool, a resident of Gloucester, in the State of Massachu- [setts, on oath, depose and say, that I was formerly of the Hrm of Pool and Cunningham and part owner and fitter of the sdiooner Daniel Woh- tfcr, that I have examined the books of said firm and find that .said schooner in the year 185!) made two trips to the Gulf of St. Lawrence after mackerel, that she was engaged from the last of June till Novem- ber 2;}rd; that from her first trip was packed two hundred and liftyone and one-half barrels (251^) only. Iler net stock amounting to $1,930.72, lone half of which was shared among her crew. That from her second Itrip to the Bay, was packed twenty (20) barrels of mackerel only. Her iDet stock amounting to $104.10, one half of whiuu was shared among |ber crew. That I have looked for the name of James or Joseph Catnpbell on my Ibooks. and cannot find it neither name appearing on them. SOLOMON POOL, Subscribed and sworn to by above named Solomon Pool, this day of September, A. D., 1877, before me. DAVID W. LOW, Notary Pxihlic. No. 242. Gloucester, October 10th, 1877. I, Benjamin Swim of Gloucester, Mass., on oath depose and say, that 1 was born at Barrington, Nova Scotia, am 27 years of age, and am fow Master of schooner Sarah C. Pyle, of Gloucester, and have been lince April of this year — have been engaged in codflshing during that |iue, have landed 150,000 lbs. of codfish and about 3,000 lbs. of hali- [ut; and caught them all, both codfish and halibut, on Western Banks. yl> !.■■ . 3310 AWARD OF TlIK FI8IIKRY COMMISSION. Tlio noiircst to tlu; Hliuru that 1 huvu cauttlit ilsli of uiiy kind tliiH yv,\t JN at IcaNt forty iiiilvM. IIKNIAMIN SWIM, MtiHtvr of Hchr. Sarah (J. J'l/h', ESSKX HS. Olouokhtkh, ()t',t. 10, 1877. Pt^rsoiitilly appoareil the above naiiiod Kciiij. Swiiii, MiiHt«M' of schr. Sarah C. Pyhi, who HiiliscribiHl and iiiadu oath tliat thu above litattMiictit by hitn Mubsciibed Id trim. llDfoiu niu, ADDIS )N CAKTKK, (L. 8.) Jmtice of the Peace and DqtnUj Collector of CmtomH, No. 243. GLOUCESTFiR, AllJJ. 29, 1877. I, Charles F.Carter, Master of tlio sehr. Falcon, <»f Cloiuiester, Mass., do on oath depose and say, tiiat I was born at 8teep ('reek, in the 8tniit of (Janso, Nova Scotia, am 3!) years of a^e, have been en{;a};ed in tlie fisheries 28 years. I have Just returned from a trip from tiie Gulf of St. Lawrenee. [ commenced to tit my vessel on the 1st of (Inly, 1877, sailed from Gloucester on the 9th, arrived in the Hay on the I4th. (iot .'{() barrels on the tlrst day; cau^rht them with a hook in Anti^onish l>ve rttiitcmt'iil 1 CAUTKU, ;tt, Aug. 29, 1ST7. f (lUmcester, Mass., eeii tMiKiijjt'il ill the tVointli«Ou»lot St. of July, 1H«7, sail.;. tlio Utii. (iot .50 in Anti}?onisl» Hay. Went down to tlio : took a sinall hcIi.miI p tlie Oiilf into til." 1, and never saw oius ) brls. on the liook, o -ip, or fare, 1 took lu tlve barrels insliorts mostly No. 2'f. uioutbs. 1 earned a AWARD OF Tin; I'lHIIKRY COMMISSION. 3311 $500 00 70(» (10 ()()() Oil 200 00 1(10 OO 25 00 $2, r25 00 80 1!J $1,322 .^0 $888 To 11 ,awrenco mackerebii!?. awas $4,200.00. My der tbe prospect tbere ir years from Cause, w m American vessels to dressed our ftsb goiug ill, tlirowlnfj the olVal overboard. I never heanl of mikOi a thin;,' as in- jiiiy to the tish, in throwing' over li<»sh oll'al. in all in.v experifiMie iu A riean ve.s.sels, I never knew of any eolli.sions with tlie lii>at Usher- iiii'ii ; on the eontrury, the best of feeling ha.s ever been iiianirestetl, the l)oat li.sliernien <;otiiiiiK <»' board the iVineriean veHHeLs lor bait, and also to^rind their bait in onr niillH. TliiH la^t trip I ^ave away more than three barreln of liait to tlie boat llsherineii. I know that there is less tliaii one foiirtli of the nuutkerel taken by the Aineri(Mn tieet, taken witiiin tliree miles. Distamie on llw. water is very eially when the water is smooth. 1 iiave often to settle a <|ue.Htion anions the hiliiitiltuiitM, piiyiiiK t\w ritMli. TlHircfdrc, tliiH (tiiHtotii Im of ^rcat ailvaiitiiKo to till) iiihabitiiiitH, who aro v«>i'y lU'HiroiiH of Hcniiiii); thin trade. WINTlIltOl* TIIIIUSTON. ClTBTOM IIOUMK, (iLOIICIKMTKU, » Oct. .J, 1877. ( IVrmuiallv ap|HMiru«l tlio al»ov«) natniMl Wiiitlirop TliiUHtoii, wlio iti;til<> outb, that the above Htateiiieiit HuhHtuiluMl by him Im trii<>, licfon* inr, ADDIHON CAUTKH, Ihputy Collector of (UiHtomn and Junticc of the I'emr, No. 215. 1, .laiiioM A. ColHon, of (llniireNter, MaHH., oti oath, iI<>poHfl aixl Hiiy, that; i have been eiiKa^ed in tlMliin^ I'or the pattt Hix yeaiM, and for tiio paHt .'{ yeaiH in the lUiuk tinhery. Have been one of the (Tew of the fol- i(»winK veNseJH, all of (MouceHter, which veHHelH have been into (iraml Manan or vicinity for bait: — Schr. IK I), (hyer, Schr. Sohuffler (Utlj'uj.\ Sehr. (ieonje S. Jioutirell, Sv/w. Hyperion. Five or Hix tinieH 1 have ln'oti there, and have UHually taken about TiO bbU. of herring at each baitiiit,', paying, therefor, from |l to $i! per barrel. Have never caught any her ring, but have uidformly bought them. Have never known any Anicii- can veNHel to catch their herring. JAMES A. COLSON. Custom House, » Glouckstkb, Oct. li, 1S77. ] Personally appeared the above luimed James A. Colson, who sub- scribeil, and made oath, that the above statement i.s true. (Seal). ADDISON CARTKR, Deputy Collector and Jmtice of the Veaec, No. 240. Henry G. Coas, of Gloucester, Masa, on oath, depose and say that, was born in Gloucester, am thirty-six years of age, am now master ol schr. John S. McQuin, of Gloucester, have been master for nine years of the schr. Charles H. Hildreth, of said Gloucester, have been in Gulf of St. Lawrence seven years of that time mackereling; 1807 I was in the Bay the whole season, took 200 bbls in all, caught them otf Bradley and Bonaventure, caught none of them within 3 miles of the shore; in l>S(i8, was in the Bay, and caught 220 bbls on the first trip, (the second trip we caught only 0 bbls) — 1 caught the 220 bbls about 8 miles from shore oil' Muscow, none withiu 3 miles; in 1800, was in the Bay of St. Law- rence, was there the whole season, and caught 130 bbls mackerel, caught them all over the Gulf, not 10 bbls, however, were caught within three miles of the shore; in 1870, was not in the Bay, went on Georges Bank until August, then went otl' our own shore mackereling, and caught 375 bbls on coast of Maine, Middle Bank, and oti' Cape Cod, we caught them in 4 trips — the quality of these mackerel was very good, and we got twice as much for them as for Bay mackerel, and we made a good year's work ; in 1871, 1 was engaged in tishing ou Georges Bank tbu whole year; in 1872, was in the Gulf of St. Law- rence for mackerel, 2 trips, and caught 270 bbls the first trip, and L'40 A\VAHI> OF THK KIHIIKKY COMMISSION. 8313 N. iiHtoin Ih of urt'at of HCCUI'illK tliiM TIIIIHHTON. .-.HTKH, \ >ct. ;», 1«77. ( iii'Mtoii, wlio m;itl»> iu(>, iM'fon* III'*, W)N CAUTKK, lice of the I'vtur. , dopoHO ami Hiiy, ytMiiM, iiiul for llui Mo t'rew of tliii fol bi'wii into (liiiiitl r. Soltiiylef VolJ'iw, tiiiu'H i liitvc Im'»mi iijj lit ouch l»uitiiiK, '«r caught any ht-r known any Ainni- ^:8 A. COLSON. lIOtTSK, \ B, Oct. 2, 1H77. f L. Colson, who Hub. true. v{ CARTER, iHtice of the Feacc. »o«e and aay that, , am now master ot ter for nine years of live been in Gulf of ' ' 18()7 1 was in tlic KMi) oil Bradley and the shore ; in lH»)>i, .p, (the second trip t 8 miles from shore the Bay of St. Law- 130 bbls mackerel, , were caught within iy, went on Georges ) mackereling, and and oft' Cape Cod, uese mackerel was •r Bay mackerel, and raged in fishing ou le Gulf of St. Law- le first trip, and :iW lilih the Mccoiid trip, caught tliem all but 30 bbls at Madeline Islandii, (iH)tli tnpH), the ;to bills we nuight aniuiid the Island of I*. J!., about hiilt' of thesi' .'(() bblH. I caught witliin .1 iiiiirs of tli«> shore— \v«> got tor tlit'st^ maeUerel ifii.'t per bbl., and W(, and olV our own siiore, witli 107 barrt^ls of nnickerel, .1 barrels of which wi^ caught in the Miiy, aft«>r being there a week, trying for mackerel, oil' Cap(> (bMirgc, l>. K. I., ett;., caught \Ul of the 107 oiV the (roast of Maine, for wliu^li we ;'(it Mit.oO, the .'{ barrels (;auglit in the Bay sold for i^lO |ier bbl. In the wiiiler time, 1 have been airiMisttuued to go to Grand Marnin for herring, liiive been thert^ for last seven winters, with e\(M>ption of IST.'t, when I WHS at NewfoundlamI for herring, generally making two trips to (Srand .Miiiian. I have always bought my herring, paying the cash at from r»0 to 7.") cents per 10(> — last year, Wn- my two trii>s, 1 paid iJl,H7r), for 1 averaged about igtlOOO for eairh cargo. All of the herring brought from (irand Mauan by the Auu^'iirans have licen bought of the inhabitants, have never known anything to the con- trary in my experieiu^e. In my tri|» to Newfouu<> ; ami not llii«liti(; inackt'U'l ,r PIIIIC41 I'Mwitnl IhIuiiiI, I went t«> tli«i Mii(;«lalcri iMlitiMlM, and tiiiMl liuni for oiw week, w itii pIcaNaiit wi'atli«*i', riilcliiiiu only 10 IiuiitIh alto({ctli)>r. Hpolii) many vrNNciN, Itolli Atnrrican and ItiiliHii, all tt'lliiiK tin* niuid' Htory, 'Mliat iiiackt'irl waH very Hcatui'." Ilrin^ (liHMatlxllcil with tin' |)i'OH|icct, 1 Nailcil tor liomr, uitli a niiuila*!' til' (itlirrN ('<|ually «liN|;ii>ti'i| I (itnittiMl to Ntato that pnn-ionM t(( u*>>i>U to thn (inlt'oC St. liawrnn*', I oaiiulit thirty llvii hairi'lH of Nhoiit nnu^kcicl otV l(lo(;k Ishintl, wh*'-li | Hohl tor ij*.'! |M>r l>arrt'l ; tlir 10 liarrclN of Kay tnackcri'l I Hohl It pur liattrl, which is one iloUar nion* tlian llin rcKuhir prirr, aH tht\> , ino om> llai' moio tor tlicni, in order to Nrrnrt; tlio Hhort* nntrktMcl. I lniv«> la-en in the yearn of exeluMion. I never knew or heard of any injnry to any HJKin boats liy the American lleet, and this very trip I have ^^'\\i'\\ awa.v in thest* boats bait, whicli they soli(;it. I m^ver heanl that mat^kerel rlfim in^s were injuiions in any way to the fishery ; on the (contrary, we ot'tin ^rind it witii thu other bait. 1 have known of timus when I have Imth Hulicited by farmers in Ht. Mary's Kay to save my olVal for them, ami tliuy wonUi send a boat for it, — they wanting it for their farms as a li>i tili/er, and not on account of any injury to the llshery by bein;; thrown overboard. The reason I diil not taku out a liciMisu during the years fallows: — Charter of my Vessel, per montli, 82.">0 ... l.'{ Men at tji.'io per month Captain's Wajjes Heinu and Koat, use of 1 Oiitllts, Provisions, Kbis. Salt Kait ,1 lnsuraii(;e, Packing and Inspoctiun I $l,L'i;:» UE(;Eii"r.s. 3.") IJbls. Klock Island Mackerel, 'a) ^'21 ASln I 10 " taken In (lulf of St. Lawreiico '«/ ii»i;J M'M BECAriTULATION. Cost of Voyage ?<1, JUil Keceipts from Voyage I)'" I Amount lost by Voyage iK:".'i| During the winters for tbe past seven years, I have been to Now Brunswick for herring, tiveraging !i trips during the winter. I liavel uniformly bought my herring, paying the cash, and have paid on an average, $2500 a year, with the exception of last winter, when I inade three trips, and paid them $3(100. 1 usually pay from thirty-live tJ ninety cents per hundred, taking .'iOO to the barrel. The herring li.sliei men there have often told me that they could not realize 12 cents [m AWAKL) OF TUE FlfHUKItY CUUMIHMIUN. M316 1(M>, illl wiTo not for lln» Anioricrih v«»p«h»«Im coiniiiK for Hh'Iii, and thoy liii\f no oiIm'i iiiiuktit tor tli«*ni to any rxtcnt. WIiIIm I wiiN <«nuiiu«*«l in tlM< Itay tlnliintt, my lii^lu'Ht Mtonk whm i{i1,000 tiir liny ono Nfiison, \vliil(« my lowivst w.im )!*J,noo. On iIih .Vmtuiran slioro, till* lii^lii'Mr Htoi-k I «>v(>r nnnl«« wiiM i!i|n,ono lor any oim NniMon, iimI my lowcNt, itntlmlinK litis yitui, no lur, Inclntlin^ tltu IL! ImrruU ..iiiulit in llin OnirolHt. Iiii\vicnf«>, In ij).I.VMl. I wfiit ono tup to N«>\vionn, \v(> Ixtii^lit SMi liinn'lN, iuid tint M«'«'on«l voyuuc, \\{\ pitid lor 'J,0(HI liarrfU. I iitni-r Un<*\v III iiiiy Amrricim vthmi'Ih cutrliint; liL'irini; in nrts or Mt'ino.t ut Now- loiiiidlunil ur NfW UruuN\\ick. JOSKIMI .1. TIJIM'KU, Manter of tichf. MuilairnHKn Ma'nl. COMMONWKAl/ni Ol' MASSACIH HKTTS, (dUXTY OF KmmK.X, HS. (iI.orOKMTKU, Sopt. 'I'l, 1.H77 TliiMi pcrsoniilly tipp<>arnl tlio abovo namt>(| .loNcpli .1. Tiipprr, ami iiiiiilooatli, that all tiic altovc staloini'iitH l>y hint suhst^rilioil, aru triii', lifloru nte, DAVID W. LOW. yottiry I'lihlif, Xo. 248. I, Hanson It. .loyiu', ol' S\van*M rHiamI, Maim', on oath, ilitpost> and say, tiiiit I am .Masti^r of HclnxMnn' Al'nr^ ol I'orlland, liavo lit'cit ('nKaK*'d in tlit^ I'MslitM'ics ci^littHMt years, ani(4,00U. I went into the Itay of !St. liawrimee, arrivinu; at ('anso, .Inly 10th, iiiiil lished ntidway between (Jape (ieor^e tind I'ort Hood, aitd eani;ht in two days 1 to bitls. with stune not less than tlve miles from the shore, and otto day tished oil' the north end of I*. 10. Island, andcaii^dtt .')0 bbls. with seine, catehin^ them not less than seven ntih's from the shore. Wo then lished between Cape (jieor;>;e and 1*. 10. Island, an«l about the cast I'liil of the Island, and (;auj;ht 37 bbls. altogether, one-half of these .'(7 with seine, and not any within four miles Inntt the shore. After the pros- lu'cl not beiiijjT favorable enoufjh, we started for home iind arrived Anjj. Ikti, having; Iteen in the Hay about a itionth, and {^(atiit}; what packed imt, ISH bbls., which sold for ii., for herriity, and loaded liiT with 15(>,000 frozen herring', for which 1 paid $'{7."». At this time, tlKTc were at least .'{0 sail of American vessels at this phuie, and in the vicinity, engayed in the same business, and tiiey all invariably bought f .a^ m^^fH^^ 8316 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. tlieir herrin;?. I have never known cf but four inHtances in which tliey attempted to catch tlieni. Jn the HeaHon of lHi]H and 1809, I waH en^Apfed in a small v<>HHel of 20 tonH for aimnt a month of each HeaHori, in catching herring, on the (;()iist of Maine, and caught 250 barrels each seaHon. This business would bo very extensive, were it profitable enough to induce (he inhabitants to engnge in it, as the herring are very numerous ou the shore of Maiiio and Massachusetts, so much so, that they interfere with our mackiMci llshing considerabiv. HANSON li. .lOYCE, MuHter of iSvhr. Alice. (iLOUCKSTEU, Oct, 10, 1877. Personally appeared the above named Jliiison IJ. Joy(!e, master of tlic Rchr. Alice, who made oath, that the above statement is true, before iiie, (L. S). ADDISON CAKTKli, Justice of the Peace, and Special Deputy Collector of Customs. No. 249. Gloucester, Mass., Oct. l.'jl, 1877. I certify that I have this day personally visited the several firms enumerated below and have ascertained from them and their books tlie vessels belonging to (Iloucester engaged in the mackerel fishery that have arrived from the Bay of St. Lawrence or IJritish waters, ; where caught not known. Leighton & VjO.—Schr. Falcon, pack(3d 107^ barrels— $1,250.03; caught at Madeline Islands — 40 barrels at East Point. .loseph Friend — Schr. William S. Baker, packed 10 barrels, at $11 — 1110. McKenzie, Hardy & Co.— Schr. Vidette, packed 133 barrels— $1,020.25; caught principally at Madeline Islands. I). (J. «Sb EI. Itabson — Schr. Marion Orimea, packed 137 barrels — $1,635; caught at Madeline Islands. Clark & Somes — S() barrels of the whole were caught within three miles of the shore. The foregoing is a statement of Capt. Daniels. Cunningham & Thompson — Schr. Gwendolen, Capt. William T. Gray, arrived from Bay of St. Lawrence on the IGth inst. Packed 225 bar- rels macivefel,oue-third of wliitjh were number ones, the reaaaiiider num- her twos. About one-half were caught at Madeline Islands, the re- mainder off' and around P. E. Island ; not more than one-eighth wer--. caught within the three-mile limit. This is the statement of Mr. Thomp- son, of the above firm. Ilenry Friend, owner — Schr. David ,1. Adanifi, Capt. Danl. Rackliff', from Bay of St. Ijawrence, arrived on the 18th inst. (liaving been in the Bay over two months), with 50 barrels of mackerel, — Due-tliird ones, aud the rest twos ; 40 barrels were caught around P. E. Island, and 10 bar- rels caught near Port Hood; nearly all caught within three miles of the shore. Custom House, Gloucester, Oct. 19, 1877. I certify that the foregoing statement concerning schooners David Crockett, David M. Hilton, Gwendolen, and David J. Adams, have beea reported to me as true, by the master or owner of the said vessel ; and that these, together with a former certified list, sent to Capt. F. J. Babsou ^ It* I 3318 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. at Halifax, are all the vessels belonging to Gloucester that have arrived from the Bay of St. Lawrence with nmckerei this season, up to the cvou- ing of Oct. 19, 1877. (L. S.) ADDISON CAKTER. Dy. Collector. No. 2C0. I, Joseph McLean, a naturalized citizen of the United States, now residing at Cape Negro, in the Province of Nova Scotia, being duly sworn, do depose and saj', that I am the Captain of the schooner Chum- pion, of Glou(!e8tef, in the State of Massachusetts, and that I have bci'ii engaged in lishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence since the 17th of August, 1877 ; and I came out of the Gulf the 20th of October. That during that time, my vessel took seventy sea-barrels of mackerel ; that I came into the Harbour of Halifax last evening for shelter, and expect to leave this morning. As nearly as I can learn, the other vessels in the Bay did not average more than half a trip, and the mackerel fish- ery in the Gulf for the present year, as regards the United States, has been a complete failure. I have heard of two vessels only, which took three hundred barrels — the Geotje S. Low, and the JEtta Oott. I also hesird that the Herbert M. Rogers took two hundred, and the FAlen M. Crosby six barrels — the William *S'. Baker, three barrels. All these which I have named have left the Bay, except the Etta Oott. JOSEPH McLEAN. Sworn at Halifax, this 23d day of October, A. D., 1877, before me, L. W. DesBAKUES. Xotary Public. No. 251. Statement of the number of barrels of mackerel inspected by A. E. Goodwin, Deputy Inspector of Fish, Port of Newburyport, Mass., dur- ing the years 1SG5, 1806, 1807, 1808, 1809, aud 1870,— Date. Ainericau waters. British watt'i's. - 11 1865 1, .')00 2,045 3, !tl8 2, ,5tU 3, 872 4, ana 5 501) 18(J6 . . 5 405 1807 'S, (KM 1688 1 %') 18(i9 1 'W 1»70 LiiOe 17,558 20, m A. E. GOODWIN. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS. County of Essex, SS. Before me, E. F. Bartlett, a Notary Public, within and for said County of Essex, duly commismissioned and qualified, personally came the above named A. E. Goodwin, well known to me as an Inspector of Fish, and whom I believe to be a man of truth and veracity, and subscribed tbe| )N. AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3319 tbat bave arrived »u, up to the eveu- OAKTEU. JJy. Collector. nited States, now 3cotia, being tluly lie schooner VIkhh- ll that I have boi'ii lawrence since the le 20th of October, irrels of mackerel ; lUg for shelter, and ■n, the other vessels 1 the mackerel 11 sh- United States, has Is only, which took j:tta Gott. I also 1, and the FAlen M. barrels. All these ^tta OoU. iEVn McLEA>. 1877, before me, )ESBAKKES. Kotarij Puhhc. inspected by A. E. uryport, Mass., dur- Aiiienciiu waterB. British T^-Btt'ra. V. 17,55ii n.aoo 5, 105 3, 1'l'.M 1,969 l.ffiiO \.m 1 iO, 004 A. E. GOODWIN. MASSACHUSETTS. lu and for said Comity onallv came the above uspector of Fish, ami ; and subscribed the foregoing statement, and made oath that the same was true and correct to his best knowledge and belief. Witness my hand and Notarial Seal at Newburyport, in said County of Essex, this Twenty-Fourth day of September, A. I)., 1877. [L. S.] E. F. 13 A IITLETT, Notary Pithlio. statement ot the Number of Barrels of Mackerel Inapected by George D. Thurlow, Inspector of Fish, for the i'ort of Newburyport, Mass., dur- ing the years 1873, 1874, 1875, 1870 : • Date. iVmorican wators. nrltiDh waters. 1^ ll 1^ Ir;;^ . i>4H a, nr-7 i,:t47 •J, oon S, ITO I[i7.| s,;i7i 843 l.;(; 6, U67 5,344 GEOEGE D. THUKLOW. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS, County of Essex, SS. Before me, E. F. Bartlett, Notary Public, duly commissioned and qualified, personally appeared the above named George D. Thurlow, per- sonally known to be an inspector of fish, and whom I believe to be a mail of truth and veracity, and made oath that the foregoing statement by him subscribed was true and correct, to his best knowledge and belief. Witness my hand and Notarial Seal, this Twenty-Fourth day of Sep- tember, A. D,, 1877. (L. S.) • E. F. BARTLETT. yotary Public, No. 253. The following is a bought by the several borring having been United Stat !S : — Number of Barrels. 15,733 7,500 450 2,000 2,500 1,500 6,000 1, 492 700 statement of the number of barrels of herring firms in Gloucester during the year 1870 ; said caught by the inhabitants on the shores of the Name of Firm. D. C. & n. Babson. Gloucester Fish Co. James 11. Stetson. Geo. P. Trigg & Co. Geo. Perkins. Simon Merchant. Proctor, Trask & Co., John Pew & Son. Clark & Somes. 37, 975 8320 AWARD OF THE FI811ERY COMMISSION. Oloucehter, Oct. l.*), 1877. I nortify that tlie above figures are a true statoniont of the ArinHal)i)ve eiiiiuiorutud, us stated tu luc by theiu. BKNJ. F. COOK, Innpeotor of Cm tomn. No. 254. AuousT 7, 1877. Arrived at Gloucester British schooner Harriet, Capt. E. K. Perry, from 8helburue, N. S. ]iritisli schoouer Gertie, from Lockeport, N. S., arrived May 5th aiid July nth, 1877. British schooner Avon, from fishing, arrived May 2Uh, Juno lltb, and July 23rd, 1877. I certify that the British schooner ffarriet and Gertie arrived at tills Port as above stated, and fitted for seining. Also, that the schounor (Jiritish) Avon, has been engaged in fishing on this coast, and selliiii,' the fish at this place since May 5th, 1877. BENJ. F. BLATCIIIOIU), Boarding Ojficer, Gloucester, Mans. No. 255. Gloucester, Sept. 10, 1877. I, Thomas E. Roberts, Master of the British schooner M. E. McLean, on oath do depose and say that I was born in Cruysborougli, Nova Scotia, am 31 years of ago, have been engaged in freighting from Nova Scotia to lioston 4 years. I have brought up this trip (520 W»ls of mackerel, 503 of these are English mackerel. I get 50 cents per barrel freight from Causo to Boston. Last trip before this, I bought herring at 50 cents ])er barrel. I know that the expense on a barrel of mackerel or herring brought by steamer is at least one dollar per barrel to Gloucester. 1 have brought in the last four years 700 barrels of American mackerel. The freight has been about the same. It is the universal fact, that one dollar is no more than a fair freight. I was part owner, and master of the schr. Push/ Lake, of Canso, I was in the Gulf of St. Lawrence mackerelingin iSOO — got 180 bbls, in four weeks ; and not doing so well as I ought to, I abandoned this lisli ery, and went onto the ocean Banks for tish. I have never been mack ercling since, but I now go freighting. TUOMAS ROBl-ntTS. COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS, County of Essex, SS. Gloucester, Sept. 10th, 1877. Then i)ersonally appeared the above named Thomas Roberts, and made oath that the above statements by him subscribed are true. before me, DAVID W. LOW, Kotari/ rublk: No. 256. ■ I, J. Warren Wonson, of Gloucester, in the County of Essex, State of Massachusetts, ou oath, depose and say, that I was part owner and agent of schr. Tragabi, 1877. of tlie flnns above . F. COOK, 8. {)() 2.'{n. 08 12. 40 Vessels, Crew, $2 ,001. (»8 200. ;5i 2)1 , 704. 77 807. 38.^ 807. SHf, ^Ma Stock Expenses as follows: — JJait, ice, Water, Port Charges, Towing, 6 Barrels, $1,704.77 8230.20 11,00 .3.20 38.81 8.00 4.50 20(J.31 12)807.38 Crew's Share, 74.78 each for 4 month and 28 days. I further depose, and say, that on her second trip, she went to the Western Bank and Cajie Sable. Sailed on or abont the 28th day of August, and returned Nov. 24th — absent about 2 mouths and 20 days. She weighed oft" as follows : — 21,743 lbs Large Cod, © 3 c 6!G.>2.20 3,025 " Small " ® lA 54..37 Fish sold bv Master in Prospect, 280.50 220 Gals. Slivers, ® 15c., 33.00 §1,020.10 Stock Expenses, 25().43 2)703.73 381.8G.V 38 1.80 A $703.73 Stock Expenses as follows : — Bait, $184.22 Ice, 47. 55 Water, 7.22 Custom Uouse, 4.40 Pilot, 8. 88 Telegram, 1.10 Towing, • 3.00 $256. 43 Crew's Share, (12 men), for 2 mouths and 26 days, $31.82. :'«>l'.; ^■■'' i -.11 m I, It mi m 3322 AWABD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I further depose ami say, tbnt said schr. Traf/abigzanda did not pay Iut running' expoiiscH during' the year 1870 by Two TliouMaiid dollars. That said Molloy was discharged from our employ as being entirely untrustworthy, and to the best of my belief, is now a resident of New- foundland, where be came from. In presence of CYUUS STORY.) J. WARREN WONSON. I, Joseph Adams, a resident of Gloucester, County of Essex, State of Massachusetts, on oath depose and say, that I was one of the crew of sIy lowest stock for one season in the Bay was $G00. An American vessel, as they are now fitted, must stock '^.jjOOO in the Bay, to pay her bills. 1 have been the two last winters to Newfoumlland for herring. Bought all my herring of the people on shore. Paid on an average eight shillings per barrel, or §1.00; paid for some S3. There is no way that the people there can realize so much for their herring as this sale to American vessels. The American trade there for herring is the chief supiwrt of the people, and is a source of great profit to them. 1 have been master of the schooners Quklcsicp, Behnderc, Seamati's Vritle, Enterprise, D. A. Ihmham, Fred. Gerring, Charlotte Amjusta, Manj E. Daniels, Joseph Chandler, Martha C. CHARLES MARTIN. fiV- I5i'ij4i-'-*i 3324 AWARD OF THE FIHUKRY C0MMIM8I0N. COMMONWEALTU OF MASSACHUSETTS, County op Khskx, 88. OLOurFiMTKii, Sept. 3d, 1877. Tlion porsotially ftppcurod the abovo iininptKMiarU'H Martin, and tiia(l<> oatii, that all the NtntumcntH by hlin above made, are true to the be»t ot bia knowledge and belief, before me, DAVID W. LOW. (L. 8.) Notary Public. No. 258. I, William ParsonH, 2nd, senior member of the firm of William Par- sons 2nd *S: Co., on oath depose and say, that T am part owner and litter, with others of said tlrni, of the schooner Pescadore {PeMcador)-, that I have examined the books of said firm and find that James Howlett mado two trips in said schooner, in the year 18G7; that said schooner ]Micki>(l ont 463.^ barrels of mackerel ; that the shares of said vessel was $2,701 ; that said Ilowlett's shares was $224.37. I further depose and say that 1 have also examined the books of said firm in regard to Daniel Mcl'hee, in schooner Memna, and tind his name as one of the crew, in 1805 only, he not having been in her in 180.1 Said 80 bbls. are number ones, as they are good-sized mackerel, having caught the most of them well up north in the Gulf — have uot yet sold, but expect to get $16 for Ts, $10.50, and $7.00 for them. I have been two months on the trip. The cost of the trip is as follows : — Charter, ® $500 per Mouth $ 1, 000 Provisions, &c., 300 Barrels, Inspection, &c., 'S) $1.75 330 Captain's Commissions, © 4.00 per cwt. 106 ' $1, 736. 00 Owner's Profit 1,278.25 $457. 75 lost by the voyage. 0 PARSONS 2ND. AWARD OF TIIK F18I1ERY rOMMISSION. 332.'V im bblH No. 1h '2) $\tt.m iii2, 40(>. 00 '23 " " 'Jh'w lO.ijO libL'..JO 8'J, OO'J. .".0 Ciiptuiu^H CulIIUliHMiullH 100.00 IJIL', .mO. ."iO Crew's Half 1,278. L'.") ( » wiier's Share ij) 1 , 278. 2.j This is my lirst trip to tho May for mtuiUcmliiij;, iiml \ think it will hci the hiNt, hikI would have done a ^rreat dual butter on our own sIkuu^ 1 liav»% for the five years previous, fished on our own shore, aud always (lone u great ileal bettei' than I have this year. In the year 1872, I was master of the sch'r Sahine, and flshed off this shore, starting; late in the Hciison, and eauf^ht or>0 bbls., which sold for ii*18and $20 per barrel; uiul in 187.1, I was master of the schooner »S'. li. Lane, of Clloucestur, and caughl 1,000 barrels otl' this shore (the American); iu 1871, I was master of same vessel, and caught 1,200 barrels, uverauiug $10 a barrel ; in 187.5, 1 was master of same vessel, and (;aught 1,800 barrels of uiuck- erel ott' the American shore, and stocked $11,000. I would state that previous to going into the Itay this year, I was mackereling on this shore, aud caught 800 bbls., for which we stocketl 85,200. SOLOMON JACOBS, Master of Schr. Mvhch AiUduh. Custom IIousf., Gloik-kster, > Oct. 4th, 1877. i Personally appeared the above named Solomon Jacobs, master of sclir. MoHCH Adamsj who subscribed, aud made oath, that the above !itatemeut is true, before me, ADDISON CARTKK*, Special Ifejmty Collector and Justice of the Peace. No. 200. S^-' lost by the voyage. I, Albian K. Pierce of (Jloucester, Mass., on oath depose and say that I am nuister of schooner Win. S. Jiaker of Gloucester, and have been en^'iiged in mackereling during this season, and fished off the American slioro the first two months of the season, and caught .3.50 barrels, by which we stocked $1,950. From dispatches and favorable reports L was induced to go to the Bay of St. Lawrence, and sailed for Bay Chaleur the 18th July, and was in the Bay 14 days, and tried for mack- erel all the way from P. E. Island to Gaspe and other places, inshore and out, and caught three barrels only. I then came homo and fished ou the coost of Maine, and caught 100 barf-els at that place, from which the ne, stock amounted to $1,455. I consider in my trip to the Bay this year I lost $2,000. Last year, 1870 I was master of the same ves- sel, and flshed on the American coast, and caught 1,420 barrels, and stocked $11,000 net. In 1875 I was master of the same vessel. I fished on this shore and landed 1,000 barrels of mackerel up to middle of July ; and on the 10th July we started for the Bay and tried hard at P. E. Island and Madeline Islands for ten days, but finding no mackerel of any consequence, we started for home, having caught nine barrels of No. 2'* m. d32G AWARD OP TIIK PIHIIKKY CQMMIHHION. during all tlio timo In the Hay. \Vn thou tlHhod on tho AmoricAti Hlioit- nnd r(iut(ht (MX) btirrulH, iiiiikin^ 1,(((N) hmrflH of ihhM niackt^n^l raii^'ln on tliif) nhoru during tlu^ yuar, from which we Ntockud $i:t,3,0(M). I'rovioiiH to 1H74, 1 had been in tlio habit of KobiK to the Hay niuckerulint;, and 8onie yearH we did well iiinj otherH poorly. Over one-half of all the mackerel caught there tinsc yearH were can^ht oft' Madeline iMlandN, and, excepting at Madeliiit' iHlundH, not one tenth part were caught within the threeinilu limit. 1 have been employed (hiring the winter for the paHt Heven years in goiuft to Newfonndland after herring;, and for the pant three winters I loaded ten veMHcU at that place. 1 hired the iiihabitantH to Ihh for iim, and left with the iiihabitantH $L'4,00U, for L'0,.'{00 barreln of henin^r, loaded into tho ten voHNelH which I Hiiperintended. Diiriii); the last two winters the owners of this enterpriHe have lo.st $.S,0" k'er 1,100 ImntU, L liiul 1hi<>ii ill tl>" rn wo tliil Willi ami miKht tlHTu tht'H*' l>tliiK at Matlolmc iiMuiiiilo limit. uKt Hcvcn ytniiH ill iiHt three winters I aiitH to llsh tor us. barrels of lieniii^', Diiriiig tholaMttwo )00 by the proHicn inters 1 was aciMis- ml was there lour ijr III per barrt'l tm t importance to liie y sail of Aiueriiau their herring; and heir herring at this bitants. At Uooiif traile with our ves ;o. In the winterot (,j_almo8t a failure, long the inhabitants ve away Ave barn'ls jat place, bought ot jtributed among tlu N K. PIEKCE. ETi, Oct. 5, 1877. . Pierce, who niiule \n true, before me. UTEU, trict of Gloucester. EE, Sept. 17, 1877. born in Gloucester, ave been in the Gulf stock in the Bay was years ago because 1 have ttshed for mack years using a seine, ast was $7,500 for j )st of my mackerel at lie most there. 1 «l!" fi miles. Mackerel in flways off shore from AVVAUI) OF TIIK FIHIIERY C0MMIH8ION. 8827 rt to 20 miloH, ami when we find thorn thoro wo get large r of the American scliooner C. Ti. MnnniiKj, was born in the Orkney Ulands, am r)8 years of age, and have been engaged in the tlsh«'ries nearly 50 years. 1 am now reining olf the American shore for matiken^l. 1 have been seven .sea.soiis mackereling in the Gulf of St. Liiwrence. I liave not been there since 187.'{. The highest stock I ever made in the (lulf of St. Lawrence mackereling was $7,000.00 (IS.V.).) My poorest year I stockcMl $1.50.00 (one hundred and llfty dollars), gone six weeks; tliis was in 180(). Any American vcs.sel, over 50 tons, with 12 or 11 men, nni.st stock at least $5,000 for a full season's work in the Gulf of St. Law- fence mackereling, to pay her bills. Of all the mackerel 1 have taken in tlie (iiilf of St. LawreiKte, not more than one-third were taken wiUiin tliree miles of the shore, incluiling the Magdalen Islands ; and the larger the lleot of vessels in the liay, throwing bait, the longer the mackerel will stop in one place. The action of the mackerel is largely intluenced hy the movements of the tleet. Four years ago, when 1 was in the Ihiy, the mackerel tlshery there was a partial failure, and since then the xVniericaa shore mackereling has been much more successful and protlt- able. For the last six years the American shore nuuikerol have been of much finer uiiit{ divlilitil uiiioti^ tli«« cnnvH i*r tli<^ (MittttrM. Tlit^ IiihIioio lUlii'iicH ol' \\ni (iiili* of Si. IjitwriMicit iur niil uimI liikliiMit Im u iiiiklttn' (MiloiiKiiitf to tlitt |>itMt. No AiiiorUniii nHlioniiin now lUlioit itislioi'd tor MitluM'. I liikvti IIhImmI out ot' (iloiuuHtor lor rii<| itiiil liuliUiit L'T Nt'iiHoiiK, itii«| I iiovor took «*ltlltM' lUli itiHiiltMiC tliro|> Ktni llslicry for <'ori(MUi lUlMMiiifii wuN iilioiit L'w yourM u^o, iumI llroll^llt to (»loiic«>Mi,nr to liiiit tUo (i«MH';;i>x in«*ii. It JH alMiiit >< or !> yruriH nIim'i' tlioliriiiiil Miitik«u-.s uml WtmhMu Hiitikrrs lii>^iui to liiiy liiiit ut Ni>vvfoiiiiiitiirifii.H«>w tliry ^o up I'or tiitio Hay for it; tlicy pay dimIi for tliiM liait. It coMtM ijtl.'iO to a vt'sscl for u (iraini I Sank fai'i>. Tlif p<'opli> tliiMc liavi* ^ot wrli olV liy tlio Nalnnt tliiH liait ; tlicy arn riitli, and in'tuy dollar left tlirrc by Ani)>ri(Min vcssrls in ('l«iar ^aiti to tlu>ni, as tli(>ru is no (dliitr uh«^ or market wlicrc tlu'y woiihl iiN<^ tlicNo licrrin^ tliey mcII to AiiMiriran VfNMrh. I liavo owned and run nioro than thirty V(>hh<>In, and in the ditVcriMit briincliCH of the llsheries piirsuud l»y AineritMit llHlierinen, I have had an iniieh experi(Mi(;e an any person now living; and I know the valine ol tlie ditVerent llsheries by a(;tinil experience in praetieal tishini;, in each department, and tlie scait^ of values by uetual sales, in the herring' trade for tho llrst eleven years, it was profitable to those (MiifaK^'d in it, but for the past eluvun years tliere has been more lost than gained, mi a fair avera^^e. I have lost myself ^1,500 on ono voya^o, and $1,100 on another. I nevermadeoveriuie thousand dollarsoii anyoiu^ herring; voya^'(\ 1 liavi> known vessel after vessel to throw overlioard her (tartfo of iKU'rini; in the harbor uf CHouceatur, and tu hav(f ^iven them away in Xow York for luunuro. VETEU SINCLAIR. COMMONWICALTfl OF MASSACHUSETTS, County of Khmkx na. Olouckmtkii, Sept. 3, 1877. Then personally appeared the above named I'eter Sinelair, and niailc oath that all the abovt; statements by hiiii subscribed aru true, bvAow ine, (L. H.) No. L»(5L'. DAVID W. LOW, Aotiiry Public. Ol.orcKSTKU, SepfemU. r ' 1877. 1, VVm. T. Itowe, Master of the schr. li. />. lldxIcinH, o .ester, (!••. on oath, depose and say, that I was born in (Jlouceste; i ;1U years ni age, have been engaged in the llsheries 'jr> years. I liaveJuHt returned from a trip i«) IMocU Island, and tin' la^ woek, otl' ^Monhegan, Maine. The mackerel taken otV IJIock Island are very large and fat, taking' !•" mackerel to a barrel. We set our seine once otrMonhegan, and tooii -" barrels No. Is ami 2s. We came home to refit and are going immucli ately to the Eastern shore. There is now a great body of mackerel there, from close into the rocks to 25 miles ott". The Maud Midler took '2lW bbls in her seine at one haul. The Fairy Queen, of Portland, took •!( )N. AWAUW OF tllfe; KIHIIKKY CUMMIMMiON. ziirfl\>«liii(Mtiiiiii- tiiK tli«' cri'WH »»t" LiiwnMini lor >M lorUniii tlHliMriii.iii ltmooHt«M' I'or t;.Ml Idoof throo mili'H IH.llciUI nKlllMUltMl » Unit tin* ilOOlU""* kors iiiul \V«(Hi»Mii itmi«^M iM'foir tlit'v llsli liikiMi im till' ,w flioy «•> »M' '■"•r tH i5(|.-»(> to 11 vessel «lh»lV l».V till' Hiilottf V AiiK'iliMn vt'Hst'U t wliiMc thi-y would ntl ill Mi«' tUnVroiit iiKMi, I liiivo liiul It know llio vnluo ot iciil llsliiiik', >>» '"'^'l' !H. Ill tJio linniii;' hOHO »Mit?iin»'«l '" '^ )!4t Uiaii giiiiiestei .i ;5'.> y*"'"*^ "' iiiHl ilo lii "■'"''''' kviiiKl fat, takiii!,'''" Iiiliegan, and tooU l^" ll aifi going iimueai Idy of mackerel there, llaud Mnller took li.i )f Portland, tooli ii« ItliJH. At Olio tiniit, TIm« VohtnUtr imV KM) hnrMM in 3 haiilM, All Mia vi'nmcIm IIio day wi> lel't, look all tli«< wii\ Inini I'M to 1(0 IiIiIn. TIm* ('or- jtoral 7Vl, tiikfii on Mm* hook. Sh«< look I'roin 10 to |,*» Imrrt'lH o.irli day. TIiIm Ih tilt' h«rt wo liiivo hud tliii .v«'ar, mid it indinitrM u uood lull nitcli on onr Nliori's. 'i'li«> owimts oI' hoiuo oI' lli«> vchhcIh now in lli«> lUy ot'St. Litwii'iicr ti.ivc MiMit by tt>l«*u:i'itpli for tlu'iii to i>(iiiii< lionin itnd go tor llu'Mo Mlioro niiickrri'l. I li ivn li«>t>ii in tliritiiH' of .St. liiiwionro 7 M'liHonH, iiiii('k«>i'«*ling. '1'Ih> «>iirl> tripM in the Idiv the niiiekeiel weru taken oIVnIioic, liiter ill the l\ill the tnaekerel wrre liiNliore. Ill IH.')], we took all onr iimekeiel inNlioi<', that Im, IVoiii one mile to ton; in IH.*it, we never took a niaekerel witliin ten inileM t>r the shore: Imve not lieen tliert^ sinee IH.~it. 1 liave Iteeii shore seinill;;: tor liiarkerei oiiice, every Meanon. I have slmred iJ'JII to ii shai«' in hIv weeks' niaek* crelitig III the Ituy of St. Iei>n master of the sehr. J/**/// lUi:nh*th, I years; liloomjithl, '2 years: Ihiriil (hii-f,'2 years: l'\ntiii'W. nankins, L M'lir. WIM-IAM T. KOWi;. (ll.olM'KHTRn, Sept. 1, 1S77. Sworn ami snliseiHied hel'ore ine, (I,. S.) ADDISON CAIMKU, JiisHcc of the I'riirr, dinl Ih'puhj Cnllrctitr af /'«»»•/ o/ tlhmnNtrr. No. LMi;j. (ir.orfF.sTKH, Aii;-. 'JO, IS77. I, Oliver l'\ llowai'd, master of the late seliooinM- full IHIsirnflh, of illdiicester, do on oath «lepose and say that I was horn in Deer Isle, Maine, am .*».'5 years of a^n>, have been »'ii;,Mt,'ed in the llslieries .'tJ yj-ars. 1 liave been in the Clnlf ofSt. liawreiiee L'S seasons mat'keieljii;;, and am thoroughly iK'Miiainled with all the lisheries. Tin* highest sloi;k I ivrr iiiad(> in the Kii,\- maekereliii<;' was )i<."(,OilO, and my lowest stock was «1HI0, and an Ameiiciin vessel must stoek ceitaiiils ^l.-'tdO in the I5ay_ iiiifkerel llshery to pay her bills. I have mostly lished foi' mackerel oil' the MandaliMi rslands,'aiid of all the mackerel I havti taken in the (Jiilf (list. LawrenciMiot one fourth weielakeii within ;i miles. I have iieviT Hf'eii iiliy interfereiMU' with the shore boats, never heard any cotnplaiiits t tliK'wiiiH over ollal or mackerel ;;ibs. .My i'xperience in this respect tlial the mackerel cleaniii;;S is lirst-rate food lor codlish, as they swarm H oiiiid the v«'ssel and cat it voraciously. As master and owner of my ill vessel 1 have iioi made any money in the l>ay imnrkcrelin;;. 1 have uiule a living and that is all. 1 should say that a fair average during the last L'O _\eais would be .'iOO sail of American vessels in the (liilf, and "illi a lull "kiiowled};e of the hu^ls, I slioiild suy that MM barrels is ii lull iivera^^e eateh for each vessel. I have been in the herring bu>iness l'> seasons. iivaiiably the herring an^ bouf^ht fiom the llritisli tisher- iiii'ii and paid for in cash. 'I'lie only demand for these herrini: is from Americans or for the Amei lean niaikct, or for Ijait. Without this niai- kft tli(> herrii)!^' would be entirely useless to the P.ritish peojile. I know th; ' this herring trader has been of great advantage to the iiilialiitant >\' the Kngiish coasts. The Winter trade supplies them with L'09 !• 3330 AWARD OF TllliJ FISIIHRY COMMISSION. tlio only lulling thoy Inivo at that season, and they woiihl hav(> no other employment if it were not for the herrinf? trade. The Anicrican cod and halibnt flHhory \» entirely a deep Hea fhhery, and there is no fiHh of this kind taken leNH tlian V2 mileH from the Hhore, and most all of them are taken on the ocean bankH. I haveJuHt returned from (iujf of St. liawremje in the yacht America. The prospect there is not (jood for a large cat. 1 obseived a great many Albecores, sonuitimes called Jtarainrntas and Jlenitos, which are deadly foes to the mackerel, »^<«, /v. /'. Howard, C.V. Davi.i, Ti/phoon, (Jalolim, Coll I'JIIsicorth. OMVICI! V. IIOWAltn, Miustc- /Schooner Coll iUUworlh. COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. Clou(.:.c4TETI, Aug. 29, 187 1. ('OINTV Ol-' ESSKX, SS. Then i)ersonally appeared the above-named Oliver F. Howard, an 1 made oath that the above statenuMit:^ by him subscribed are true, to tlit best of his knowledge and belief, before me, DAV^H) W. LOW, Sotary rnhlk: No. 204. (Jloitoester, Aug. 25, 1877. I, Jo.seph W. Collins, master of the American .schr. Howard, of (jIuii cester, on oath do depose and say : — That 1 was born in Islesboro, IMainc ;J8 years of age, have been eugagi^d in the fisheries 2S yeai's. I liaw just returned from a fishing voyage to the Western lianks. Have lisla-i nearly every year partially on the Grand and Western IJauka, siiu!e ISiJl, Have purchased bait at Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. There are twn modes of keeping fish taken on tliese Banks: One method is the iisoui ice for a fresh halibut trip ; the other we use salt lor a fresh lish tri)), n cai'ry some bait from home. We also take a few barrels of fresh iierrii!: from Nova Scotia an't'« foundland. From 20 to 40 barrels 1- .iting each on the long summer tri|i> to the Grand Banks. We bait from 3 to 4 times usually at Newlbuml laud, averaging about 200 dollars for the whole trip. I have taken several whole fares without leaving the I^»ank, using tU ISION. ilioy would liivvc III) lulo. The Aiiu^riciiii lory, and Uicru is no B slioro, an«l most »ll it rotunied IVoin (lult Dct there is not k<>0(1 I the Bay of Ht. hiiw ad ever known tlierc lUed liara»'t)UtiiH and ving thenj aw;iy Ironi linjj aUnitJ th«^ British •jcre, wo saw iiniruMisc ■esenee of these lisli i> any hieallty. imI like a whaik witli a y voraeions and vciv id their presence its U> L-aree in the dull' and ,i>ls 1 haveeonitniiinlcil ;dis, Ti/phoon, t'atiiliiii. V. iiowAun, ooner Coll hJllxicorlh. IIUSICTTS. .4TBR, Aug. 29, 1.S7;. Oliver F. Howard, un 1 •scribed are true, io tlit iOW, yotarij riihlk: isTEK, Au}?. 25, 1877. schr. Ilowanl, of VAow- nn in Islesboro, IMainc LM-ies 2S years. I liavti I) r.anks. Have lislii'ii t(>ni IJauks, since 18iJl. Scotia. Tiierearotwo 10 method is the use^i for a fresh fish trii),v.ej barrels of fresh henin:: awls we use the ri^t'u^t] is all sntlicient for tin j never know an Amen ISC* a Scotia is about 4 bai I or halibut. For a sail ova Scotia and at New ] u the long sumraertni" s usually at Newfouuil trip. . ,, , iug the Bank, usnig tor AWAKU OF THE FISHERY COMMLS.SION. 3J31 liiiit H(juid, taken on the Banks and refuse (isli. The buying of bait on the shores of Newfoundland is a convenience rather than a necessity, the whole profit of the transaction resting with the Newfonndlanderi*. We also buy ice of the people, paying ijC-'i to $.'} per ton in gold for it. We also use ice from the iursued successfully without this conveu- ii'ii(!e of iced bait. When our vessels go into Newfoundland for bait they are delayed often a fortnight, whi(!li of course is a loss to them. My tri|» in .luly, 187<), I was delayed a fortnight. The inhaliitants are very eager for our trade, coming out to njeet us in boats to solicit our patronage. The men who furnish i»ait are operative fishernnm. Sin(!e the advent of the AiiieriayMig money lor thorn, has changed the relations largely. There is no fishery on tlie shoies of the Dominion, or Newfoundland, used as a shore fishery for lialilnit and codllsh by American fishermen. Til* i»' fisheries are wholly and purely deep soa fisju'ries. I have been in the (iulf of St. Lawroiuio for mackerel part of 22 sea- sons. My highest stock was .*S()()0 whole season. "" lowest " " ijSl.SOO " " All American vessel manned and e(pii|>ped as the Bay-men are, must at the least stock iji.'iOOO for a season to pay her bills. In my exj)erience not more than one-fourth of the mackerel taken were taken within 3 niiit's of the shore. I never heard such a thing as mackerel cleanings or utl'al aflbctiiig the (ish unfavorably, when thrown overboard. Often times afterdressingand (hrowing the fresh oll'al overboard, wo havefound the mackerel attracted by it and caught good decks of mackerel that had ai)parontly come in to this as in to our throw bait. Wo use it often to extend our bait. The Jiritish boat fishery is pursued near the shore and the schooners will not venture in where they are, especially if Uio wind is on shore owiug to tlui sluillo-vness of the water. The boat tish- eiy is one thing, the schooner fisliory another and dillerent thing. I never know of but one boat injured by the Meet and that was done by aceiilent. The boat fishermen often come on board our vessels for favors which are cheerfully granted, and iu the case of injury, above niontione Gloucester, Aug. 2Sth, 1877. ) Tlien })ersoually appeared the above named Joseph W. Collins and made oath that all the above statements by him subscribed are true to the best of his knowledge and belief, before me. !L, S.J DAVID W. LOW, Xotanj Public. Kt' : :V,f.i f " (1*' iH 3332 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. No. 265. Gloucester, Aug. 2.% 1877. I, John Gl(Mui, wiis born in York, Mivine; am 39 years of age, and on oath do depone and .say, that I have been eiigaged in the (Isliing l)HHi. nei!8 twenty years. I have been mackereliiiff in (iiilf St. Lawrence tor 10 seasons, mostly from GUiueester. The best stock I ever made was $5,000 in any season ; was in the Ahha U. SirttMi/, of (}h)ucester, buyin;; a license for fishing insliore. We fished mostly around the MagdiiltMi TsUinds, and about all our mackerel were taken there. $5,(M)0 was tiie highest stock 1 ever made in theGnlf of St. Lawrence, mackerel ti.sliiiijj' ill the Ahbn H. ISirnsey. Wo did not have occasion to use our liconse. We were also on Bank Bradley. My lowest stock was $2,000, in 1871, An American schooner for a full season's fishing from June to last of October in the (Julf of St. Lawrence, must stock $5,000 to pay her bills, I never knew of any American vessel damaging the British boats, hut. on the contrary, have often had them come to us to grind bait, and utlier favors. This present season we went from York, Maine, to Gulf of St. Law- rence, codfishing, in schooner Anna F. Manon, 30 tons, carries 9 men. Commenced to tit the Ist of July ; look no bait from home ; bought ici in the Gut of Canso ; paid $3 per ton for it ; went up oft" Point Miscoii; caught our bait on the grounds, — L e., that is, 15 miles oft" the shore,— in nets ; the bait was herring, and commenced fishing with trawls; \va> there a fortnight; took 25,000 lbs. split fish; threw most of the ofta overboard. There were 10 other American vessels fishing at the same place; saw 20 Nova Scotia ves.sel8 up and down P. E. Lsland, fi.sliinji for codfish nsing hand lines. They throw over the ott"al as we do, Never knew of over 30 sail of American vessels in the Gulf codfisliiiii;, I should say there were 100 sail of American vessels mackereling. know that while I have been in the Gulf of St. Li.wrenee that not one- tenth i)art of the whole American catch of mackerel is taken witliiii three miles of the shore. We have always thrown overboard the lish gurry, and 1 never have noticed any diminution offish on that account, I'he American fleet fish in 20 fathoms of water, and they throw over their gurry in this deep water. We bought some supplies on our way home. I know of no inshore fishery for cotUish now pursued by Amcri can vessels in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The vessels in INLiine can oli- tain any (juantity of ]»orgie slivers and clam.s f"or bait at home, but it is cheaper to catch the bait on the Banks. Bait was scarce on this iii|i on the fishing grounds. We conld have obtained bait from the British shore fishermen at about the same i)rice as it would cost to take it tioiii home; but we prefer to take the chance of getting it on the fi.>iliiii;' ground. There used to be (piite a nuinbi>r of vessels from Ma ue pur sue the cod fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, but of late years this lias fallen off greatly. The fishermen have put their vessels into the American shore mail; erel fishery, whicli has been very much more profitablii of late Ycai> This present trip my crew shared ><")0 each : time employed, six weeks 1 have been master of the schooners Juv Jlookir, Mt taeoiti, Iris, A. I! Mufion. JOHN (iLKNN, Madcr of Schooner A. 11. Masou, York, .V', Glooester, Aug. 25, 1877. Personally api)eaied the above named John Glenn, and swore tlmi the above stateuieut by him sub.s(!ribed, is true, before me. AIJDISON UAIITEK, Justice of the Peace. ION. AWARD OF THE FISIIEKV COMMISSION. No. 200. 3:533 R, Aug. 25, 1877. ears of nge, ami on in the llHliiiif; hm\- It' St. Lawrence tor vM 1 ever made was (lloucester, bnyin^ bund the MaKdalen >re. $5,(M)() was the ice, mackerel lisliing 11 to use our licoiisc, was $2,000, in 1871. from June to last of ,000 to pay her bills. le British boats, but. grind bait, and other , to Gulf of St. Law- tons, carries 9 men. )m home ; bonght m up off Point Miscou: miles off the shore,- lingwitli trawls; was rew most of the otlal Is tishing at the same I r. E. Island, tisliinj; ■ the offal as we do. II the Gulf cod{isliin<:, vssels mackerelins. I ; wrenee that not ono kerel is taken within \vn overboard the lisli t fish on that account, and they throw over ] , supplies on our way :)\v pursued by Anu'vi- ssels in Maine caiioli] bait at home, but it i> as scarce on this mi' bait from the lUitisn 1(1 cost to take it tioui tiiig it on the ti,>-hui,'j ^sels from Ma: no i)ui |t of late years this ha* .merican sbore maik I [dlitablo of late yi-ai^ CM. ployed, six w.'okO ,, Mrtdcoin, Iris, A. '•' loilN GLEN^', II. Mason, yo>% Mr. ;ter, Aug. 25, 1877. ilciin, and swore th;i!| Icfore nie. Justice of the Peace, Gloucestei!, Au;;ust .'51, 1877. I. -fohn P. iriit(!hins()ii, master of the .schr. h'ohert T. Chirk, of llridge- port, (Connecticut, do, on oath, depo.se and say, that I was born in New VoiU, am 51 years of age, and have Just returned from a voyage to (Jot- ti'iilmrg, Sweden, I started from Gloiu^ester, the 21st of April, 1877, and went to the Magdalen Islands for herring. 1 carried no nets from Gldiicester, but in llie Straits of (Jniiso, I hired one seine and two boats, and I men, all IJritish subjects. At the Island, the seine, manned by the owners, and some «» others that I hired there, took about 100 barrels lit' herring. All the labor of taking, |)acUiiig, etc., was done by llriiish ,>ut)ie(;ts, and their service paid for in cash. I al.so boiifjht 200 barrels of iicrring from other llritisli lislierimMi, paying about 2.') cents per bar- rel, landed on board my vessel. >.'ot being able to get as many herring as I wante«l at the ALigdalens, I started on the 20th of May lor fortune Hay. There were ;iO A inericaii vessels at the iMagdalen Lslands after liei'iing, buying and hiring the herring cauyht, the same as I was. Ar- rived at Fortune l>ay on the 2r)th of .May, and bought 1,."»00 barrels of herring from the people on shore, paid 80 cents per barrel in gold. Left l"'ortune Hay the ISth of June, and arrived at (lotteiibiirg on the ,'ith of July, herring in gooil order, and sold .slow, and at prices that will not iiKue than ))ay the expenses of the voyage. 1 found the people at Fortune Bay very desirous to sell. My voyage was as much a commercial voyage, as if 1 were buying iio- tatoes or any other i>roduct of the Oominio"; ami all of the herring taken by other vessel.s, so far as 1 could oh.serve, were bought and paid for ill the same manner as I liought. I carried 2, 0(K> bbls from lCastp>ort which were never landed at Fortune Bay, but I was obliged to pay du- ties on them. I also paid light dues, 8-l">. 1 have never been in the tishing business, and as far as my observa- tion goes, the trade with the American vessels at Newfoundland and the Majidalens is a source of profit, and large gains to the people there. Tha Josepk Wilder, an American vessel, was at Gottenbiirg when I was, and her cargo of herring was half rotten. Taking the whole of the European trade in herring, sent from this side, I should say, on the wh(»le, that there has been no money made in it by Americans. This trade is experimental, and the full results are, so far, not very satisfac- tory. JOHN P. riUTCHINSON. COMMON WEALTU OF MASSACHUSETTS, oiNTY OF Essex, SS. Gloucester, Sept. 1st, 1877. Then personally appeared -lolin P. Miitchinson, above named, who iiuule oath, that all the above statements by him subscribed are true, to the best of his knowledge and belief, before me, (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW, Notary ruhlic. Xo. 207. Gloucester, Aug. .".1, 1877. I I, James Mclsaac, ^Master of the schooner Taus, of Port llawkesbnry, h'ova Scotia, on oath do depose and say, that I was born in Port Hast- iigs, Strait of Canso, am 42 years of age, that I have been engaged iu 1 ^ "h i*' fit -b'^nnfl 3334 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISblON. the flsherieH for 18 years, just arrived from Grand Ranks and flnlf of St. Lawronco from a codllsh trip. I broii^lit iti 80,000 lbs. codtisli ; we took 00,000 IbM. on Grand Banks; tlie vessel sprun); a leak, and we itad to run ill home. I, after my vessel was repaired, went on to bank Bradelle, in the Gulf of St. liawrenee, where I took 20,000 more of vml lish, 25 miles from shore. I caught my bait for this tri|> off I'lince Edward Island, about three miles oil' from shores; the bait I used was n)ackerel. It is the usuid custom of the vessels from Nova S(M»tia, bound to the Jlanks eixlHshin^, to buy bait from the shore people of Newfouiulland and Nova Scotia; the averajje price of herrinj,' is aljoiit $2 per barrel. I have i>aid as liiKli as f.'S.oO per barrel. The market of the (ishinle hardly had a net or a boat, and tlu-y were living very j)oorIy ; but now, owinj; to the herrinj'' trade witii the Aii.erican and other vessels, they are prosperous and are liviuf; in j^ood style. They own boats and nets, and all of this prosperity is directly owing to this trade. There is no other market for these herring, and they would be useless if it were not for the market this trade atVonls On the Banks, for a fresh trip, we first use herring to start us, and tlR'ii, after the lirst lish are caught, we use the refuse ttsh for bait. I have caught four trips on the Banks without having any herring, and took squid on the Jianks, and these squid, with the refuse, was all I used. I should say that if all the vessels would carry salt bait they would do full as well as they do now with herring. I think using fresh bait makes the tish dainty. The Provincetown vessels this year have done as well as any ves- sels with fresh bait ; they using clams. I have never heard of any boats in the Bay being injured before the talk this year; but I have known the boats to Hock around the American vessels to get the benefit of their bait, so that the vessels could not get a line into the water. I have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence 10 seasons mackereling. in American vessels ; never with seines ; always with the hook. The best season's work I ever made in the bay was "jsioo to a share. Tlie poorest reason was $200. I have not been in the bay for four years. Some years we get more inshore; some years get more offshore. 1 should say that one-half of the mackerel are, in my experience of hooking, taken in- shore, viz: within three miles. [ never heard or knew of such a thing as fish cleanings hurting the tish ; that is a new idea. The American seiners have made a great deal of money in seiniuj; mackerel oil' their own coast ; this 1 know, being where I could ascertain this fact. The American cod and halibut fishery is a deep sea fishery entirely. Years ago a few trips were made up around Anticosti, but it is noth- ing to the great sea-fishing. ?7s>w they take all their fish on the Jlaulis, offshore; none less than 12 lu^'^s off, and some .'50() miles oft". JA3IES McISAAC. COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. County of Essex, ss. Gloucester, Aug. 21, 1877. Then personally appeared the above named James Mclsaac, and made I oath that the above statement, by him subscribed, is true. Before | me, (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW, Xotary Ptihlic. ON. anks an«l (lult of I) lbs. codtlsh ; we t leak, and we liml went on to bank (),()(M) more of cod- lis trip off rriiice lie bait I used was roiii Novii S('(»tiii. lie shore people of )f herring is aliniit rel. . le shore peoitlo is ;i more tor their lui- til dispose of them. seveti seasons, ami or }i boat, and they •rinji trade with tlie d are livinjj in pxxl I'osperity is direetly r these herring, ami >,t this trade atVords 0 start us, and then, sh for bait. I have •rring, and took s(iui(l all 1 used. I should would do full as well 1 bait makes the tisli me as well as any ves- beard of any boats 111 lit I have known the i the benettt of their ,e water. sons mackereliug. ui I the hook. The best share. The poorest r years. Some years te. 1 should say tluil )f hooking, taken ui- cnew of sucb a thing Uni. . . of money in seining; here 1 could ascertain sea fishery entirely, tieosti, but it is noth- uir tish on the lianks. 10 miles off. A^IES McISAA( . USETTS. TER, Aug. 21, 1877. esMcIsaac, andmade| bed, is true. Before AWARD OF THE FISHERY COM.MI88ION. No. L'08. 3336 AVID W. LOW, Notary Puhlu: Gl-OUCKSTETl, Aug. 2S, 1877. I, .John S. Jameson, master of the schr. Jlenrt/ Wilson, of (Jloiieester, on oath, do «lepo.se ami say : That 1 was born in (iiiysboro, Nova Seotia, am 40 years of iige, have been engaged in the lisiierii's for M) years. I have jnst arrived from a trip to (ireenland for halibut. 1 brought home 120,000 lb.s. of halibut and 30,000 Ib.s. of codlish. We caught onr tisii 25 miles from land. 1 have been 10 years in the Western and ("iiand Hank fisheries. We nsually take l.*» bbls. of porgie slivers for a trip from (Uoncester, and either go to Nova Scotia or Newfoundland for fresh bait. We always buy this fresh bait and pay cash for it. We pay on an average about l.i dollars per barrel for this bait, taking 4."» bbls to a trip, usually two trips a yeai'. Sometimes we go in for bait t times to a trip, taking 45 bbls. each time. The bait costs us about 200 dollars for the full trip. If there was no demand for these herring the people would not catch them at all. The American fisheries on the Banks has absolutely created a new business for these jieople. 1 have caught a number of trips of fish without getting any fresh bait from the shore, using my slivers and refuse fish. The Graml liank fisheries has been pursued for centuries, the first beginning of this shore fresh bait business is within 10 years. Jt is entirely to the advantage of the shore people of Newfoundland and other places to sell this bait, as they realize huge sums from w hat would otherwise be of no value whatever to them. There is nearly a half million dollars paid to the English people for herring by Americans, including the winter fresh herring trade. This would be entirely worthless to them except for the American trade. The American cod and halibut fishery is entirely a deep sea fishery. With centuries of fishing on the sea Banks and for centuries throwing liver offal there is no real diminution of tish there. The use of fresli Ijait has made the fish dainty and on the \vliole it has been an injury to (iiir fishing there using this bait. If all the Bank fishermen would use salt bait it would l)e better for the whole. 1 have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for mackerel 10 years or sea- sons. Not more than one-fourth of the mackerel are taken within three miles of the shore by the Americans. American vessels in the Bay will not average more than three huiubed barrels of mackerel each for a seasons mackereling there, this is a fair average lor 10 years. JOHN S. JAMESON. CO:\[MON WEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. County of Essex, s. s. Gloucester, Aug, 2S, 1877. Then per.sonally appeared the above named .James S. Jameson and made oath that ail the statements by him subscribed are true before me. (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW, Xolary I'liblic. No. 209. Gloucester, September .'J, 1877. I, James L. Anderson, ^Master of the American schr. Seth /Stoclltfidge, I of Gloucester, Mass., do, on oath, depose and say, that I was born in Middle Millford, Straits of Canso, am 37 years of age. I have been eu- |};aged in the Gulf of St. Lawrence mackerel fishery for 24 seasons. I have just returned from a trip to the Gulf of St. Lawrence for mack- lerel. ' . #^ f ♦..:.] !■? W:'h\ 3336 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I boRan to lit my vchhpI for tliis trip on tlio 1 1th of .Fniy, 1H77, Hailed from (ilouri'Ntcr on the 14tli; w(>nt down to tli(M;o)i.st of Miiinc, iiiut HcintMl |M)r(>ipM for bait; tool; M) 1)I)Ih of .slivcrH; I arrivtMi in tlit^ (iiill'ut Ht. LawriMiro on tliu L'Stii of tlnly ; (ian^lit our llrst mackerel oil IviNt Toint, 1 miles from slion^; took I.j barrels; then went np the east Nido of I'rirure Edward Island, as far as New London, tried all the way n|>, and ;;'ot no nniekerel. We then ran down the Island lo Seeitiid <'|iiipf|, and took 10 barrels of mackerel there, inside of three miles. Then inn down to the Magdalen Islands, and took l'> barrels in fonr days on tin- hook, oil' Urine Island, over three ndles from shoie. 1 then went hack to 1*. E. Island, fished there htr a week, and did not ;;>er 10 barielsoi maekeiel. We then went to the whohi nortluirn sidtM)!' Cape IJieton, tried all the way for mackerel, and j;-ot nothing. Aj;ain went to tlic IMa^dalen Islands, tried there I days, and j;<»t .") barrels of mackerel; went ba<;k to 1'. IC. Island a};ain, tri(>d all round the north, east, and Konth 8ides, and tbnnd nothing'. I then lishee, took JO l)ariels of nuudvcrel, ami being completely discoiirant'd. 1 left the Jiay on the 24th of Anj^nst. W^e conld lind no mackeril. neither had any vessels we saw, seen a!iy mackerel to speak of lor a fortnifjht. I know that the mackerel fishery in the (lulf of St. liawrenco is a thorongh and complete failnre this year, and cannot lielj) bein^ra great loss to American owners and fishermen, in 'laving their vessels go there at all. 1 think the mairkercl went ont of the l>ay, for the rea- son that there was nothing in the water for them to eat. 1 consider that the large amonnt of bait formerly thrown by the Ann'ri(!an lltH't, when fishing with hocdvs, had a great effect in keei)ing the mackerel in the liay. (Since the vessels have ceased to go there in large numbers, this bait has not been there to keep them in. Each American vessel used to throw, on an average, !)0 barrels of bait in a season, costing from 4 to G dollars per bairel. JMy. present trip from the (Jnlf of St. Lawrence packed out 90 barrels of mackerel, mostly Ko. 2s, a few No. Is and No. JJs. The time consumed from the date of fitting, to fimil settlement, will be Just two months. My vessel is a new, first-class vessel, rating 00 tons, new measure nieut. I had a seine boat and seine, partly used, worth 750 dollars. My vessel's charter is worth 8;}00 i)er ^lonth, for 2 months $00() (ID The use of seine and boat for 2 months, loO (in Sixteen IMen's W^ages, at ! ns wages, at 9-w per iMontn, tor i' Monti Captain's Wages at !:i<7r) i)er i\Ionth, " Outfits, including Provisions, Bait, Salt Bairels, iS:c. Packing and- Inspection, Insurance, Total Cost, RECEirT.S. Ninety Barrels of Mackerel, at 612, l.")0 t)(i 500 0(1 70 (HI 100 (Id J$2, 530 0(1 $1, OSO 0(1 Actual Loss, $1, 450 W In 1875, I was in the Gulf of St. J^awrence, and cruised all over it, and found no mackerel at all. I have been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for the last 20 years, even year, except 1873, 1874, 1S76. I did not go there last year, as all the reports showed that there was no niackei'el there. AWAHl) OF TIIK IISHKRY COMMISSION. 'M\31 lavinu their vessels licked out 90 biinel I'nal settleincut, wil III all my ♦'xporieiiee in fnkiiij,' iniU'Uen'I in the (Jiilf, not nmre than oiietoiirtli art) taken within three miles of the .shore. I have taken wliolo entire trips with not a sinj,'lo niack«'ri'l ot them taken within tlve iiiiles of tile shore. I hav« seined otV tho Americran shore parts of five years. I havo ,sto(!ketl in a single season, !-eiiiiii;f mackeicl thfrc alone, reckoning; no (itlicr lish, seven thousand six hundred dollars in a season. The best stock I ever made in the (iiilf of St. Lawreiuui nnufkerel (islier.v in oiu^ whole season, was six thousand seven liiiiils. The Ameri(;an schooneis aro very particular not to trouble tho boats; and it is a universal fact that the schooners never can j^et any mackcu'el on the ^'roumls inshore, in shoal water, where the boats usually lisli. I never took 10 barrels of mack- ciel on tho boat's lishing' {^rounds in all my fishing in the Bay. . 1 have " hove to '' this year near where the boats were lishlnf>' and getting some mackerel, and we could not catch a mackerel. In most of the places where the boats tish, my vessel coiihl not go in, as they tisli in from two to four fatli«)nis of water, and my vessel draws 12 feet of water; and this fact a])plies to most of the American schooners. 1 have been to Grand Manan for herring, to carry to Gloucester, to biiit (leorges men, and paid from (»"> cents to one dollar i»er hundred for fresh herring, and the same herring for any other purpose or market was not worth to the people who took tliem 23 cents a hundred to salt. Tho skore peoi)le always catch the herring. I have had but one trii> of mackerel sent home from the Bay by trans- sliipment, and that trip cost Just one dollar jier barrel to get them to Gloucester by a sailing vessel. This was in 1801. 1 have been master of the following schooners: — The Mornhuf Lif/ht, I'lwador, Ida Thurlotc, Bcnj. Jlanhdl, (Ivorqe S. Low, Srili Stochhridgc. GAPT. JAMKS \u ANDERSON. COMMONWEALTU OF MASSACHUSETTS. Gloucester, Aug. 4, 1877, C'oiNTY OF Essex, SS. Then personally appeared the above named James L. Anderson, Cap- tain, and made oath, that all the statements by him subscribed, are true, to the best of his knowledge and belief, before me, (L. S.) DAVID W. LOW, Xotary Public. f.'iiJ ■■•■ "■■ .', i'\ i 3338 AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. No. L'70. (iLOUCKSTKH, AUJJ. -7, 1S77. I, .IcHHc liCW'iH, MuHtcr of tlu^ Aiiioriomi M'.hv. Alice M. Lcirin, ofdlon. CPHtcr, oil oiitli (io ih'poHu himI say, tliut I wiin born in Kiftcry, MaitM>, am 18 yt^arH a^'(>, and liavc Ikmmi (Mikiik(<(1 in tho (iHlioricH '.\'» years. I have JuHt arrived Iroiii tlu'lJiiifof St. liawreiuH! from a mackeu'liiij; triji. I commenced to fit my vessel for this trip tli« 1st of July, 1M77. I sailnl from (iloiicester the oth of fliily, arrived in the (iiilf of Ht. liawrenco about tiiu I (til of .Inly. Was tlttetl with a purse seine and ixtat, aii*l one suuill seinu. Tlie lirst inacl{){) 00 100 00 131 li.") 2(»0 00 25 00 !if'j,;5rjO 2.") $2, 100 00 I $250 2") and 4codflshinj;. io liay is 8i,"''"' '^ taken there weiv tiirow overboiiitl use as throw-bait. ny being i)ois()nt'el lernien eoniplaiii. win}? all their olV:il nen, American auil i) trips since. I never caught a herring there, l>ut in- variably bought them, and paid the inhabitiints for them. Wiieii I lirst went then! I paid one dollar per bbl.; they are now worth from i««l.r»0 to .*2. Tlii^ AJuerican trade in herring has kept the peoph- from starvation, and ritised whole (;ommunities from poverty to comparativtt aflliiiMioe. I liiive km)wn i5<(l(>,000 to be paid for herring in I'ortiine Pay alone, by the American Meet, in on<' single winter, and there' would have Iteen iione sold otherwise, as there is not any demaml for these herriny, except by Americans, for the American maiket. I think there are about KKKsail (»f Americans in the Pay this year. The average number of American vessels in theCiidf of >St. liawrence the past 20 years is not over 'J.'»t» vessels, taking oim y(nir with another. Out of the lleet this yj-ai tlieio IS not over a dozen that have taken iis many mai^kc^el as I have, ami a hu'ge proporthm of the lleet are leaving the Pay entirely discourageil. The Wm. S. linker has arrived in (Jloucester, within two hours, from the Hay of St. Lawrenee with only live barrels of nniekerel. I have be««n master ot tlu' schooners Suhkh /■!. llnni'x, llattiv Lrtds, 1(1(1 May, Two Forty, I'lirron b\ Ihdt', AVtv*; M, Jj«U'is. .TKSSK LKWIS CO.M.MONWKAI/rU OF .M ASSAC'HL'SKT TS. COI'NTV OF ES.^KX, S'S. (ll.OUCKSTEK, Aug. 27, 1S77. Then personally appean'cl the above mimed .lesse licwis, and made oiitli, that all the above statements by him subsciibed, are true to ihe best of his knowledge ami belief, before me. DAVID \V. LOW. (L. S.) Motary I'ldilic. No. 271. riL(»r('K.s'l'KK, Sept. ;5, 1S77. I, Samuel 'M. Farmer, master of the schooiu'r Mnud Miillcr, of (Jloii- irster, on (tath do (h'|)ose and say, that I was born in P(»otli Pay, Mo. 1 have. just returned from a trip to the coast of Maine. I have been ab- sent five weeks. I brought home 2.jO barrels of mackerel, making 4(i barrels No. I's and 100 barrels No. 2's. The No. I's are worth ><2I per barrel, the No. 2's are worth !i5l5 per barrel. My whole trip is worth !)2 00 Keceipts 230 barrels mackerel 3, 810 00 Profit $2, 818 00 My vessel is only 45 tons. She took these mackerel 8 miles from Mount Desert Rock. The mackerel are schooling in every directiou .!l..-H«| 3340 AWAKU OK Till. FIHIIKUY ('OMMINHION. tliero. I mil u<>iii|f liiu^k iiiiiiioiliafiily, I tliiiik tlui luuHpt'irt In kuimI foe u lai'Ko l'')ill nittrli on our Nlionm. I liiivi^ Im'cii in tlir Mk} ul' .^t. |j)iwroii<;r tlii'iM<> HtMiHoiiH lor iiiii('kiu'(>l, in IHliS, |H(itl, lcS7<> yrarn. |s70 I iniiilo i! wvui cxtiii. ^ood vt^HiN in tiio Hiiy. or all tlio iiiackrrcl we took diiiin;; tli«^ tliti't^ yrars ainoiinljti^' to nearly l,8tl(l hancls, only *.MI wash liancliH were lukni on Huiliek nIioiiU within tlir«'«' niilt's of the Hhor«\ I have on the American shoi'i> iiia ij)*)))!! to a share in a seaHon, tlit> leant 1 ov(>i' made on this shore nr.Ktkerelini; was i;) lOll, a sinison of live liiontlis. 'I'he Hay nuutkeitO llsliery tor this and the two last years lias been an entire riiihire. 1 have heeii todrainl .Maiian one Winter loi lierrin;;. I lii>ii;;lil my herring; ol' the people on shore, payini^ cash Ini them. I paid Irom tiilto '.Ml (Mmts per hundred. Tiiere is no market, and no use to which these herring ean he pat that will lie;;;in to pay the ytv.u- pie the amount ot prolit that this sale to .Vmeriean vessels prore thrown overboard alter we were baited, as there was no vessels there to take tlu'iii, they were worthless I'or any purpose for which the people eoiild use them. HAMCJKL M. KAKMKi;. COMMONWIiAI/ril Ol' MAHSACIlUSinXS. (jLoi (;i;sTKK, Sept. .'Id, 1877. County ok IIsshx, SS, Then piusonally appeared the aboviMiamed Samuel !\l. I''ariiier, and made oath that all the above statements l>y him subscribcMl, are true to the best of his kiu)wled>;e and belic^f, before me, DAVID W. LOW, yoUiry No. 272. I, Alexander MeDonald, of I'rovineetown, in the ('ommonwealth of Massacdiusetts, beiii;; duly sworn, do depose and say that 1 am thirty years of aj^eand am the (captain of the scdiooner Willie ,l../r»*/v'//, onj-a^cd in tishiii^' for cod upon the (irand ISanks and L have returnetl witli one thousand <|uiiitals of tisli — all taken on trawls. I have Ihhui truwiiii}; for cod for nine years and until this year have always us«hI salt clams for bait which I carried from home. This year I went to N(!wfoundlaiid to purchase iresh bait for the first time. I arrived at the liay of Bulls about the ei{;liteentli ill il Nt'llSOIl, lln' , 11 st'iistdi t»r live ,VO lust Vl'llIK Ills II (Hin Wiiitt'i tot , piiyiiif,' wish I'll is no iu;nk»'t, aiitl II lo pii.v tlin |>f.i»- iSclH pnxImu'K. I ,1. Wo t(M»li OIU1 , pii.viiiK •'»'> <•''"'* ,t ('aim lUotoii ill land woni tlirowii rJH tlit'n^ t(» taUi' tlio pi'oplu COlllil , M. rAitMKi;. uvrrs. I, Si«pt. ;'.«l, IHTT. q] M. KaniH't", ami crilH^tl, iii'o ti'iu' t(» (loniiiioiiwi'altli oi y tlial I am tliiity ,l../o(/v'//,oii;;a^t'(l icturiM'tl Willi <»"•' iav« luHMi trawliiij; vs used salt clams "t to Nt5\vtouii«llaii(l t the Bay of Bulls ith Hevcn limitlml and stpiid can;;lit oft for Oupo lloyal . Cove, (Conception urcliase .any V)Hit at sof H(iuidforwhi(li )aent from the li«h- d (luintals with tbo -liiider of the trip I not wasted so much ihould havecaugbt AWAKU OV TIIK IIMIIKKY COMMIH8ION. 3341 iiion* fish on tlie llankN liiid luivo ciiino homo oiirlior. I hiivi^ tiovor II HJiod lor bait at Nowroiindhind Imt hiivo hIwu.nm ptirohitsod it and if oxoliidod Inim piirohaNiii); I cortainly Hhoidd not |{o to Nowloiiiidland to ciilch it iiiyHclf. ! ooiiHidor tho trado in liait to lio of ^roiit advaiila^'o to tho in- liiiliitanlH of Nowfoiindland. Wliilo at rortii^al Covo 1 paid U'illiarii Talk, tho <'ollortor, Nixtoon HO 1IK» dollars (jjtKi.HO) f<»r li;;hl duos, lioiiij; ill the rate of twenty toni (-onts per ton, and this dno in collected from all American llMhing vessels visiting Newfoundland. ALKX. M. 1»()NAM». Sworn heforo me at Halifax, tliis L".)th day of Hoptomlier, A. H 1.H77. N. II. MKAdllKIt, Xittafif I'nhlic/or the I'ror'nuv of S'oi'ti Sootiu, No. Ii7;{. I, Aloii/o ('ovey, of SwampsiMitt, in tho Comimuiwealth of .Massaehii M'ttH, heiiiK duly sworn, do doposo and say that I am tlfly-thioo yoarH (lid, and am the i-aplaiii of tho .1. <'. Nrirlmll, a llshiii;,' vessel (»f twenty- nine (L'1>) tons, lit present in Halifax, Nova Scoti;). 1 have been oti- ^'ii^'od ill tho llshin^ business, both as captain ami iiid, for twenty live years. I have just returned from a trip to tho hay of Si. hawreiiue, mackerel fishing. 1 h^ft Swampi^cott tho L'Sth day ol last tliily, and ar lived ill the Bay the 7th of August. I llrst fishoil near I'ort Hood, and took four barrels of imutkend six miles from the shore. I thou took twenty-live barroLs twelve miles broatl olV Mimiiij,'ash. Then IIsIumI oil Skinneack from .I to 1.5 miles from the land, and took the balance of my ti'j|) there, with the oxci^ption of 11 Iktirrels, wliicth were taken between llast Cape and I'ort Hood. I took one hiindi' than three miles from land, I'xcept live barrels at North Cape taken inshore. This trip has ii<)t been successful. Tho share of the vessel will not more than pay the cost of the oiitnt. Before this season I have brcn en^ra^fed in lishiny; on tho I'liited States coast, and my trips there have been niiieli iiioio remiiner- iitivo than my present trip to the Bay. I do not considi'r the privile;,'c ot lishiny within three miles of the Canadian teniber, A.' D., UsTT. KOl'.T. SEDC.EWICK. I^' atari/ I'ublk. Xo. 271. 1. Kdward N. Wilkins, of Swampscott, in tho Commonweallh of IMas" sai'iusetts, beiii^f duly sworn, do depese ami say that I am loity-two Ncaisold. J have beeiialisliermaii for t weiityliv ('\eais,;ind am now one (»f the crew of the schooner vl. V. iW/f/u///, Captain Covey, and have Just Ktimied from the Bay of St. I>awreiice. Wo caujrht l-'» barrels of niiicUerel, all of wliieli "were taken more than three miles from the shore with the ex(!eption of live barrels taken inshore between North (Jape and Miiiiiii^ash, I'rince lldwaid Island. Previous to this year I have hi.(!ii ill the Bay mackerel lisliing twelve seasons, the last trip was iu t. >./ 8342 AWAHD OF THE riHHEKY CUMMIHHIUN. 1873 In tho Mohoorinr Kntffht T^mptar, of tWowof^ntrtr, wn took I'tO burnOM of tniu!k«rul, ull of wliirJi wero lukiMi iiioro thuii •'! iiiil««N IVoiii thii nIhmo oxunpt uboitt T'O hiirrrlH tiikori iiiHlioro iioiir UiiMtiro. In itll my trlpH to ttii^ Ituy I do not think Mint oiiivllt'tli oi' uil tliu iiiiiuki^rul lukrti W(>ro Ciiiiulit within tliiuu iniluM ol' tliu nIioiu. KDNVAIM) N. Wn,KINS. Sworn lii'fon* inn, at tki* (Mty of TTi»lifiix, in tlio (bounty of Ilniii.ix, tliiM LJtnii «luy of Si'ptinnbcr, A.'l). IS77. ROUT. Si:iKlK\VI("K, Sotan/ I'uhl,.. No. '27n. I, .loiin S. Htii|>i('M, of HwikiiH InIuihI, Muiiit*, on outb iI<'|>omi> anil sny thill I Hill niiiNtcr of tho Nchr. John Nomin^ of I'oithiiMl, M«>., anil imvi; bi'i'ii «>ii|;iiKi'«l in ntti'hin^ nia<;U«'i'«0 (lining this HciiMon, roniiiii'nrnl In tishint; oil thi> Aninican siioie, ami caiiKht -t''iO barrclH wliirh avcni^'i'tl li>l(i |M't' bant'l. Tho favorublit i'(>|>oi'ts from ('anno inibnuMl nic to mt (hiwn (tut Kay of 8t. liawrcinu^ anil I an'ordiii^ly .saiUMJ about tiic L'.'itli of .Inly. I was on tlir trip ii liltli> over a montli, tricil for niai^kcn-l all the way from I'ort Hood to N(>w liondon lli-ad,and from tlicro to Ma^ dahMMi Islanils and fiom xlwiv to Mar^aroo Ishmd, and sii<-(M'i>di'il in jfottinjj only oh'vi'ii barrels whi(!ii aro worth r*f> per barrel. I lost uii this trip to tlio Hay ijd.'iOO, at tlu^ U'ly^t caleiilatiMn. At ('anso I \va> visited by the otileer who <>xae.ted one dollar from me for the support oi bnoys — tliis is colleeted of all Ameriean vessels, I arrived home lioin the Hay about the .'trd Hept. and sincit that time I liavo ean^dit t.')i) burruls of mackerel on this shore, which are worth i!*14()0. In year IST.' 1 was njHster of sclir. •loHcph Stnrif, of (Ihincester, was in the Itav inackerelinj; and <'anj{ht -.'»(► barrels, not over 10 barrels of wliiith were «'un;;lit within three miles of the shore. In the year 1H7<'( I was captain of the same sehoonur and (Ished for ma(;ken^l ot) tht; Anierimin shun and took HOO barrels, from which wu stockeil i3(S,0()0. In 187-t I was in the said sidiooner up to.luly LMth, when I left her on account of sicl^- iiess, up to that time we took (JoO barrels, from which we stocked !j*;{,5(t(i all this year the said schooner lished on the American shore. After I left her the said schooner took (JOO barrels. In 1S7.') I was in schooiici linshlUjht and fished for ina(;kerel on the Amerii;an coast, and took diiriii;' the season '.MK) barrels ami stoiiked about ij«7,000. In l.S7(i (last year) 1 was in the schooner John Soines, and lished for maiikerel the wlioli season on the Aiiu^ri(;an shore and took 1,(10(1 bariels and stockeil !i*'.),r>(iii. J would state that previous to the years enumerated above, 1 was in tin Ihiy luackerelin^ for 1.') years and am (U)nli H whu'h iivi'iiiui'tl ilnllHU'tl MM' tn Kii M iilM»nt tin' -•"•III I lor iim»'U«'nl all oiii tlu'ic to Mil;; mill Min'fiM'diMl III Imirt'l. I lo.Hl on At CllllMO I WilH lor tlu^ HU|>|>oit lit ariivtMl lioiiu^ liniii liiive ciiUKht l.">ii 400. liiynir IHTJ •, WHS ill tli«' Hay ioIk of wliii'li w«'i«' IH7.'{ I was ciiplaiii iit^ AiiHMicaii slion III IHT'l 1 was ill II account of sick- Wi' stoi',ki'(l i?:5,5«»" III shore. Aflt'r 1 1 was ill scliooiifi ,st, ami took diuiii;' 1S70 (last year) I iickcivl tlio wlKtlr ,11(1 stocked i?0,r»(m. above, 1 wasiiitlM not oiietweiitictli three mile limit. I >rican shore as tai lery. nif II FriviuK aii'l „,l l)MUt?ht .100,1 lui time -'0 sail <'i herrinn' ami l)<»iiulit iiy Irom 150,00(1 U> ,vith the American i> umloubtedly siiltti of money from tlii> e no other market I, STAPLES, ooner John Sovws. CfjrrOM IIolHK.Ill.dl rKMTKU, Oct. I, IH77. i'erNOiially appeareil dipt, .lohn H. Sinpli-N, who ««iil»Miribei| to thn fore^oinK Mtatemeiit, uiid iiiaiie uulh that tlie fore^oin^ stuteiiieiit wm tints before tiie. ADDISON CAIfTKU, Spa'inl Ihpiilif Collntor unil JuMtirr of the I'ltwe, No. 276. C.I.Ot'CKSTKR, A IIKIIHt '-•."., IH77. 1, Daniel McNeil, on oath depose and say, that I wns lioni on Cape llteton; iiin .'it years of atre; have b«>«>n en^a^t'd in the lIslu'iii'H lor I'l years, principally in the liaiiU IIhImii^ on (iiiiml llaiiU, Westfi n and (,)iiero ; have been master for live years; iim now master of (he Hchooner Ulirn I'lifHons, of (ilonce.ster. .\rrived from the SO for my l>ait on the last trip, and I did not ijet a full liaitint;. 1 have never ilslicd for buit at Newfoundland, neither have I (>\er known any of the .Vinerican ll.shermeti to do so at .Newfoundland,— always invariably biiyiii;; what they needed, — and, in tai'l, if they wished t(» catch their bait lliey could not, for they are fitted with no appliances tor tli<> piirpos(>. Tlu; inliabilants of Newtoiindlaiid are very anxious for this trade, always iromiii}{ on board, even belore I (tan come to anchor, solieitinu th(> sale of this bait ; and thiniKh the American llsh ermen pay the highest pricit for their bait, ivv. and .supplies, still 1 ro- (jard it as cheaper to do .so. This bait supply to the llsheriiieii furnishes occupation to a lar;;;e part of the inhabitants, and is (piit(^ luerativ(^ to tlio.se eii^a^fed in it. This trade has be(>n patroiii/(M| by tli(« .Vimtricaiis (enj;aj{ed in the Hank llshery) very K«'"«'i'ally for the last mu-eii years. Previous to that time, it was the custom t;o(!at(tli our bait on the Kaiiks. I'lshpeas, llsh cut up, birds and stpiid (;oiistitut(^(l our bait. Thi^ in- habitants of Newfoundland lliid the only market for their bait in the rreiich and .\mericau Hank rt(M»t. I r(>;,'ard this tralllc of \astly more itiiportance to the inhabitants of Newfoundland than to the .AiiKuicaii llslienneti, as we could procure our bait, as heretofore, on the Hanks. I liav(( s(ten L'O sail of .\iueri(!au vessels in a small cove at .Newfoundland lor bait, which they uniformly purchased. If prevented from purchas- in;;' bait at Newfoundland, the .Vniericans could procure this bait at th(> I'lcnch Islands, where the I'rencli Ih^et of Bankers ;,'et their bait and sui»plies. ."^Nvorn to and sub.seribed before me, No. -77, 15 DANIEIi MrNKIL. (iI.OlCKSTKR, Aug. '-*."), 1877. ADDI.SON CAHTKK, JustiiT (»/■ titf l\(teo. i. Charles K. Paiklmrst, of ('ilouc(>ster, in the State of MassMchusetf.s, l)ookkee|)er, on oath depose and say. that schooner F.ncrufi was built and owned by my father, ('liarles Parkhurst, and run by him in the (i.sli- in;: business until she was sold to go to Calitornia. That in ISOS she vas engaged in the (lulf of St. Lawrence mackerel lishery ; that she sailed .Inly 18th, and returned Nov. 1 Uh, 1S08; was ab.sent three months and twenty-six day.s, making but one voyage. She brought home and packed oilt one hundred and thirty-three (133) bands of mackerel, i* IVM'\ A\VAiM» or I'llK. KIHIIKKY COMMIHHION. wliij'h wiiH nil lior culi'li lor tliiil hohnoh. 'I'Iio xthhuI'm Hliiirr wan ijH.OH." 'rinit .lllllM'.-* llowl«r iillt'i iiuirKi'irl. 'rit:il Imm nIi:i>.^ ot Hiiiii iI«)IIiii'm iiihI VI 100, wliirli \;im iiiiNt«>(<(t aiiit puitl lo liii\v>(>i I'nriii. CHAIll-KS i;. I'Ah'KllllfSI. ( '( )>ni( >N w i; A I ;n I ok m ass a< m ii sioi rs, Khnka, h. s. ■W>|>l. 'J I si, I.S77. s TImm) |mm'soi)iiII,v iippiMiriMl lli<> niiovo iihiihmI rimrU'H 10. I'lM'MinrNt .mil iniido ttiitli lliiil llu> iiliovr slniriiuMit, li.y liiiii Niil)N('rili(-«l, is true, Inlnh DAVID W. I,(>\V, iT(t/(U7/ I'lihlii . COMMON W MAI. Til OK i\l .VSSACIH ISK/ITS. K^^sKX. SS. I, /('luilon i'iirr, of Olom'CNtrr, in siii«l Coiiiity oi' lOsscw, iiinM um in«)n\v< lirniiiji biiNiin-Ns .sonicwluit cxn'iiHivfly in lli(> l*roviiH(> oi Now |inui.s\vi«'K, in llu> liiubors ol D«'«'i' Isio, SI. Andrew's, Itlics InIjiikI, lUMJ ollior liiubois 111 wliu'li licnin^ nro io l)(> boii^lil or r>'otiiiiu'tl, \\ illiin llu< las! Ion yours 1 liavo lion^lil llllooii trips of liorriii|>, iivorji)^ xwf:, Iwi) liiintlroti and t\vonl\ l1ionsan\ only -mvvoii. ZKini.ON TAK'i: «S5KX, SI: ('()MMONWKAi;ni OK MASSAOIiUSKTTS, K'ocKroirr, Ootohor ITtli, IS< Tlion |UMstinally apitoarod llio aliovo named /oluilon Tarr, and niiitlr soUnin oath to tlio tnitli ol tlM> loro.uoiii^ statonioni l>y liiin snb.soiibcil, i.otoio mo. >\ATI1ANIKL K. S. VOK'k, thititicc of the I'coi No. "JT!). "\Vo liavo boon askt>il to niako a statiMnon; » i ilio nninbor of oarroNot honing o;ur:ht in Aiuorioan waters iiii tiio coast «)t tlio I'liilod States, and the invabor of barrels of liorrinjj' ean,iilit in Koreif>!» waters diiiiii;,' the last year ha.ulUtl by ns, and to state the vi'lativo value ol oiU'ii barrel i*. its lirein state as ii is when taken ironi the water. AVo liiul u].on examination ol onr books that \ve have taken in tnii nv-.ine.i*lirtl iuhI lortylivit hiiirrls wvni (iiiij^lil on lli<« roiiHt ol NinvroiiiMlliind, i'n\u\ r.irlon,' Nova Hcolin, Mnn- iliiNn IsIiiikIn, sinil liiiUriHloi, iin follows: — till) ii'Im. CiHij^lil ill I'oilniK" r.ii.v, Nlltl H, :iH7 " " I'ult llooil.'c. I! L'<«l " " Novii. .Si'oiiii (conMt) .:UM J r.;,iii;i " " Mi(:4 tlio hiurrlH, Halt, labor, etc., dr. All lli»« III! I in;n w lin'h \v(> put up in lln> I'lovinccH as ,stat(i!j;lit iioni the li,sln"inn'n ami paid tlnni at pi i>"('.s as slated ; and III no casi* wliatcvcr did wv ovrr ••alrli any in nets or scincn, hnt, always I>iiri-Iias('d tlit^ lisli Iroin tlic natives. ilie almve niiiiilier of hands docs not. ineliidei any lierrin;,' wliie.ji one M'sst'lrt lMon<,;lit in lll<^ I'loviiu'es dnrin;;' the year, tor liail. \V(^ have taken IVoiii onr l»o(»kH the nninlter /«>7/ I'ublia. No. L'HO. William ('of^swtdl, of Salem, (Jouidy of l-lssc.x, ami Cominoiiwealtn of MiissaclmsettH, on oath, deiioses and says, that since Au^iist L'Uh, A. J>., KStKJ, lie has held, and «loes now, hold the oliliw, of Inspec-tor-Cjeiieral iif Fish, within and for the .said ( Common wealth ; the dniies of which Midollice, amoiij; other thinj,'s, are to HUiMr\ise, either personally or by 'It'imty, flie paekiiifr and insi)eetinff of all pickled (i.sh put up within Slid (Jommoiiwealth, to keep aii accuiate aeccmnt of the same, and to icport (hereon in detail, as lo the number of barrels, the (pjality and kind of Kueh fish, to the Secretary of the Commonwealth, 'liat he is under bonds to the Treasurer of the said Commonwealthj a the sum of ten thousand dollars; that in the discharge of hijs du- iit's. he is assisted by some one hundred dei)Uties, more or less, in ln' dill'er«Mit seaport towns of said Commonwealth, each of whom 1210 F .334G AWAIM) OF 'IIIK I'ISIFKUY COMMIHSION. m^ arc iitidcr IkiihIs to liiiii in tlu^ sum of six tlioiisaiMl dollars; timt ho liaH ^MV(>ii (>sp(>(;ial attention to inronniii;; liiinHcIf iVoiii all possili],. soiiKM'H of infbrniatiori, in what waters, and what eoasts the tish, which has i)assed under h's supervision since Ik! came into his said ollice, wcn' caujjht ; that he has als() rei|uii'cd and leceived sworn returns or alliiln. \ its Crom ii larjje number of his deputies, nniny of whom Jire owner> of the tishiiifx vessels ; nniiiy of whom have been enj,M},'ed in the hshiiiL; it- self, and all of whom haveasaccurate Unowled<,fe<)n the sul)j(!('t as is [lus- sible to be obtained, showing the number of barrels of llsh (laii^fht within the three mile line of the coast of Iler JSritannic Majesty's Do. minions in North Ameii(;a, durinj,^ the (ishiiif,' seasons of IStiT and ls7(), inclusive, ui)on whi(;h said returns or aiVidavits, and upon his own l)i>8t knowlcdf^e and belief, and upon his own reports as aforesaid, he savs as follows: — That in the .year ending l)ecend)er L'Oth, 1S(J7, there were in- spected in said Commonwealth, two hundred and eleven thousand tivi; hundred and ten barrels of mackerel, and no more ; that he hasiilljda. vits as aforesaid, covering some ninety-seven thousand bands of said mackerel, of which only some two thonsaiid were cangiit within three mile line, or in other words, about two and one sixteenth p»'r cciii,.. which applied to the whole catch of that year, would give sorue forty- three hundred ami sixty barrels (tf mackerel oidy thai were "'aiigli within said Hue, in said year of 1rs ; tlr.it ■ iVom all possilile sts the lish, wliicli is siiul oHict', wcic 1 n^turiis or nlVuhi- loin are o\viU'i> oi a ill tliP flsliiii- it- ic, siil),i«H!t as is iMis. els oi" lish ciiiiulit iiiiic Miijost.v's Do s of 1S()7 and l^Tll. upon Ills own Iti'st •oiosaid, lie siissas |S<)7, there were in- oven thonsaiKl live •that he hasiilVulii- [iid barielH of said can^ht within vi, i sixteen! li j-'reiMit.. lid 8. i.re were inspected 111 r thousand two luui- this vaunber he liiis and thirty-two thou jh only eighteen Imn- ue, or in otber words to the wh.ole catch oi •rels of mackerel only d year of 1809. lere were inspected \\\ lonaand Ave hundrid ] and that of this nnm j e hu'.idred and nniety , ckerel, of which on y ithin said three imH .r cent, which appluni ,e thirty-tive hnndred said three mile line lu ,ere were inspected in iousand,foarhundreil d that of this nuinber hundred and eijilitvl el, of which only ^'oiml il three mile line, or "l otiier words some one per cent., which ajiplied to the wIiol(> Ciitcli of that year, would hun- ilrcd and twenty-three barrels of mackerel only that were caught within siiid three mile line in said year of 1872. Tiiat in t!ie year ending December L'Olh, 187.'5, there were inspected in said ('ommonwealth, one hnmlred eighty-live thousand seven hundred ■,\v.f\ forty eight barrels of mackerel, and no moie ; and tliat(tf this num- ri lie has allidavits as aforesaid, covering someone hundred and forty- .nc thousand barrels, and no more, of said mackeicl. of whiitli only some twenty lour hnmlred liarrels were caught within said three-mile line, — iir, in other words, some one and three eighths per cent.,— which, ap|)lied '■1 the V hui ■ ' .itch of that .Near, would give some twenty eight hundred iMircls of m.i'-kerel only that were caught within sai more, of said n.u-kere', of which iiiily some eight hundred barrels were caught within said three-mile line, — or, in other wonls, some three-sixteenths of one per cent., — which, ;i|i|ilied to the whole catch of that y«'ar, would give some eleven hun- ihi'd barrels of mackerel only that were caught within said three mile line III said year of 1874. That in the year ending December L'Otli, 1875, there weie insi»ected in said Comraonwealtli, one hundred and thirty thousand an I fourteen bands of mackerel, and no more; and that he has athdavits covering sdiiie ninety thousand barrels, and no more, of said mackerel, of which iiiily some three hundred barrels were cauf;ht within said threemile line, or ill other words, some one third of one i)er cent., which applied to the whole catch of that year, would give some foi.r hundred and thirty-three lianels of mackerel only that were eauj^'il within the said three-mih^ lino in said year of 187.J. That in the year ending Dtcember 2btl'. 187(!, there were inspected in >aid Commonwealth, two hnmlred and twenty five thousand nine hnn- ihcd and forty-one barrels of mackerel, and no more; and that he has iitlidavits as aforesaid, covering some one hiindicd and ninety thotisai . barrels, and no more of said mackerel, of which only some three liui ilred barrels were caught within said three mile line, or in other words, some one-sixth ot one jier cent., which, iii'piicd to the whole catch of tiiat year, would give some three hundred and seventy-six barrels of mackerel only that were caught within said three mile line in said year |nt 1870. And said deponent doth turther depose and say, upon his best liiulgiiient, information and belief, that of the wl.ole niitnlier of barrels of mackerel inspected in said Commonwealth, from 1S\')1 to 187(!, inclu- sive, amounting to nearly two million two h.indred tlionsand barrels, [iKit more than some twenry-three thousjuid barrels were caught within \m it *'M -R f'7/.+ M '^. 3318 AWAKl) OF TIIK FIHIIKUY COMMISSION. tlic said tliico inil«^ line. That of tlu^ wlioUi nunilxr of baiifls of iiiacluMi'I inspected in said ConmioMweallh IVoni IST.'J to 1>S7(5. inclusive, anioiintiii;^' to some ei^litiinndred tiionsand bairels, not liiore than sdiiic rortyseven huiHlred and nine barrels were ('an^ht within said three mih. line. And that tor tlie last lour or live .years preceding the date hcrcdt, the catch of mackerel witliiii said three mile line, and oil the coasts, or in theltays along the <-onsts of Jler liritannic Majesty's J)oniini(iii in North America lias been rajjidly decreasing, the catch within the time inih' line as aforesaid, to eleven hnndred barrels in 1S71, to fonr hundred and thirty IIikt bands in lS7r>, to three Inindred and seventy-six bairels in I.S7(I. Tlint from his own jtersonal knowledge, the lishing (irms of said (/OIiiiiidh. wealth, during tln^ last four or live yeais as aforesaid, have subslantinilv given upas of but little or no prollt wliat is known as the "JJay lisliinn," and iiave confiiu'd their lishing vessels substantially to tiie sliores, ha.\s. and coasts within tlie Jurisdicition of the United States of America. Witness i:iy hand, at JJoston, (bounty of ISutt'olk, and Commonwcallli of Massachusetts, this (lay of August, A. 1)., 1877. WM. C()(JS\VELL, Inspector- (jmcrnl of Fink for Masmwh itsrti.s. CU.AIMONWKALTII OF MASSACIIUSKTTS, OlFlCK OF THE SliCl{KTAU\ OF THE Co:\lM()N\VKALTH, SUFFOl.K, S. S, This may ceriiiy that William Cogswell, of Salem, County of Mssox and Comnionwej.lth aforesaid, has held the ollico of lusi)ector (lencial of lish within ard for this Commonwealth since Aug. L'4, A. ]). ISIiti, and does now hold the said otli('ason, the provisional use of the privileges granted to them by the I Treaty. I have, &c., (Signed) KlMBEllLEV. Governor Hill, C. IJ., &c. Ill compliance with the request made by the Eight Hon. Karl Kim- |beriey, in his desi)atch of 17th .lune ultimo, to His Excellency the iuvernor, it is agreed to accede thereto. Correct copy. (Signed) G. D. SHEA, Clerk Ex. CouncU. Mm. ■\f^i^ \ f m a.im^i:n dix o. STATISTICS rii'JlUJCH!) OX r.Kll.VM' OK TIIIC CMTi:!) STATIIS. I. Statist iciil DotMMiH'iifs rclatiiij,' to \Ur I'Msliciicw and Tratlc itt Fi.sli Ik- twi'cn tlio Uiiiti'd Statt'fs and British Xortli America. ■mM: I. i'tililt sliDiiinif lh( iinjiorlulioiiH iiilo tin Uinlvd SUiIhh of Jixh of nil k'nifh/rom nil loiiiitiks I'7(l. 1"7I. i-ri. ib:4. I"7,"i. MG. Kri'Hli lor I iliiily iiMti. 242, 420 27m, 021 l'"l'CO. Diitlubiu. I Total 1, 0-3, no 3, 310, 4,13 2, SU3, '.» l-i:- '.W»,;!u I'^iiii 1 , iio;^, !i;i!t 1^70 1 , :i!H, .-,().-, 1>T1 l,:is;!, '.Mm LS7-i 1, 100,17:! l'7:f l,(il)0, t;i7 1-71 y, loi.iiu 1875 2,;t»s,(in h7(i *l,8!(W,7it7 18*7, y niontliM, to March:!! 1, •JlC'.CKi •The iiu))Oit.s into th((l'iiit('il Stiitis IVniii liritlsli Xoitli .Viiiciicii in l.-'TO an|iciii to liiivi' Ix'cn ciiuiil to iiiicthiiil of tho total expuits I'loni liiitisli Nortli Aiueiica lor lliat .year, wlrnili aro ulUaially niiDituil .M*5,.5lll,221. HI. Imports of fmh into the United Sluleafroin liiiliah yortk Jmeiica. Doniiniou of Canada. Otlicr J5riti.>*li PoshcssIoiih in li. N. A. Dutiable. Free. Total. nutiablo.j Freo. Total, ii;(, 81)3 13,5. fiH 207, o:iM 301, 702 252, 777 80. 401 201.001 107. 771 Total U. N. A. Mi:i 1,003,004 1, 003. .5(11 004, 137 (179, 825 1,108, ;«)(! 32,714 8, 805 5,478 1,003,004 1,003, .501 004, 137 000, 808 1, 300, 044 1, ^44, 002 1, OOfi, 58C 1, 010, 722 1 113,8.53 ' 135, M4II 207, 038 :t40, 2.'(i 232, 348 70,011 (i, h78 4(i 1.117,7.57 i-;ii 1, 130, 407 wi 220, 083 258, 278 1,812,188 1, 807, 601 1,60.5,244 1,201,175 H7"* 21, 440 20, 120 18, 700 254, 123 107, 725 1 202 510 bT:l . 1 tilO 421 1-71 l,it:t4, 303 l'-75 2, 167, 587 l>7i; 1, 778, 4'j:t '"•- ^ '■< iiujs. to Mar. 31 S 1,313,049 1 3352 AVVAKI) OF Tin: FIHHKKY COMMISSION. IV. I ISII Ol" AI,L KIMW. ImpiniatiiJiw inht ihv lailid Shitvu/rom llrUiah Xorlli .tmirUa, Diitlnlili' viiliip. iHl.'i to IH.'i'l. Kill' llir It'll IIhi'iiI ni'iiI'H Iii'Ioii' i'«ol|ll'il('lty. Aiiniiiil kvoiHuo iH.Vi In IMIII. |lii!'ili(( t'rrl|il'iirlt.v, AlllilliiJ iivil'iiK)' Iflill til IkT'.>. Knr llit< Hi\ llm'iil yi'iirr* iiltir I'l'i'lprority. A nil nil I avi'iiitsii Ih7:) (fri'Hli, a7«(,707) Ih7'I ( " '-".M.MS) im:. ( " ;i.M,HH!i) 1H70 ( '■ ti71,&U7j (,'i7o, ,'»io on 1, 40'j, M7:> :u> Iliity. «m:i, U'm ;n Dnfymn'i'il I, 1711,1150 no 'J77, oi;i M7 i,;iiii, 711 00 ;);ii,«i;i oo i,ti:to,iHrt on ' |n;i,v hi mi l,H|,\tlOH on I ll.'it, ■Jim III 1, 500, HiMi on a;t!j, 't'41 iKj V. MACKKUEL AND IlKUUlNd.- I iiiianillij (ititl rahw vnUvimj into anniiiil cotimmitliou in the I'nilid Slulin, Maokorol. (Jiiiuitity. I Value. HerrlOK. Qimiitlty. Vain,. :in, OHd blilH. ♦38'), 175 01,451 bills. i-i"'*. 94:1 27, •tOH " :iOtl, 1105 91,, 507 " 4-ri, '.M'j SH, 41-0 " 201, ,527 87, 2811 " MO", .''ii:. 98, 4H7 " MOO, 07 i O'J, 0J2 " ;)5ii, :,vi ;«•, .572 " 847, 701 •12,474 " 3.')'.', :fiii 70,(151 " .52:), .577 •M, 407 " 3."i'j, ai'i 00,872 " 807, 089 82, 82ti " * 805, 810lioxi'K S 4tiH, i\m 78, i:i2 " .587, :i40 08, loo IiIiIh. > ;tOO, 540biixeH) SfO, i:ii, 70, .5110 " «0."., 017 107, 3IOlibl8. > 307, 100 buxus ) 5:.o.78-J VI. MACKKREL AND IIEUlUN(i.-II. Atniuul iiiqwrtatioH into the I'liited StatvH. Mackerel. Ileri'iiife'. Quantity. Vttliio. Quftutlty. Valiu', 1879 79, 887 bills. 00,889 " 89, 093 " 77, .538 " 70, .538 " (440. A94 610, 4.57 80'.', 470 584, ^30 09.5, 460 78,ai7bbl8. 68, 092 " 82,551 " 92, 344 " 104,812 " 384 ill'i 1873 35!l 'Ji'i'; 1874 434 .'il'J 1875 51."i ()■( 1870 49:1 m mrk'rt. liiity. I»iit.v«iivi'ii ii:i, iflH '.n U77,im:i m |a:w, 1-1 111 ii,'i»,*i" III i(i/i(< a^i'fs. HorrioK. guiiiitlty. Vttlnr fit, '.tl, B7, tW, li'-', ii:t, H'J, an:., ;«i<.t, 107, ao7, 4ri1 l)bla. fita " •JKI " (IW " »7I " 4!I7 " nyti " ), HlltboxoH S I'.IO 1>Ii1h. ( .'■|4i>l>l)X0H ) lll'.Mibls. i I'.Mi ImxoB > ♦•If H. iw;i ;iiiH, vx< S.Ml, 7.VI 3:i'J, 7i»i 46i^,flB9 rirO, I'.ili .I'll. 7« lIoniiiB. Quantity. 78,'jnbbl8. ti8,(i9a " .0M 49;l. OSH) AWARD OK THK IIMIIHKY (.'()M.MI^l.SlON. VII. MACKKItKI. AND IIKUKINO - III. .l;i, :iO(i " Ir-tl.KOS VllIlK I)lll\ Duty snvc'il IH48 to IH54. I I lur tliv Huvcu tlacAl y«arH bpforo rei'lprncity, nniniiil iivcrnKo. . |Un, HIM 9H $H.'i, 070 fl.t , IK'..') to IWfiO. I During' ifclproclty. Aiiiiiiiilavi'rai;o ! . .VltiT ior,l|noclly. I , I I"n7 1 (17.'.,'.IH(1 00 I 15.1,00(1 00 t. i-i;" ' ;i(i4, 4'J!t 00 h:i,:iio oo . :'7il , 4:iM, 110 00 ; i.''.,\40;j oo '. Ka , I C0.'i,778 00 ' 17U,:i!)0 00 I. .\iiiiiinl averngo { 581, ISl Ot 143, a04 00 l'7t. Ulili. Hi»,fi!t3. 1^75. " 77,4f"H. IrTti. " 70,538. HOa, 470 on i (1179. 3f(l 00 .')f4, :1,'p3 00 I 154,!l7li llii (i'.l5, 4tJ0 00 i 1,')3, 070 00 Annual avoraKu C!ti,o'.)4oo ei(;a,47uoo Vi ■', ..M ■.IT'l !fv] .•i3r)4 AWAKl) OF IliK rihllKUY C'OMMiMHIUN. 5?. •^, V 'A 1 6 I ^1 I! 1-. I •a 1 •"3 a II, n si 15 of f i t I 8S8SS 9i I*. *f H JO ^ f^ ^ ^ ni S2 !i1 ^■^" sssssss C f *"• '7J irt T o "~ ■*■' 2" Sf 2" i? '' iis « »' 01 ijj g M n I* trt to e*^ i* m « t"* |i« IMI'iiMUIt INK. IIIK I M I Kl) mTATKN KI(«lM lllllllNll .MUM II \MI,li|i \. i-ri l'7il Itiilliilila Viilii.., ... 117, 1-:. ... TV, III"' Uiiljr Him III *:in, -tiv -v<> |M r I'i'iii., >jiiw, m;\ |o AmIIIIIiI IIM'tllUI' fi'^d, *',H III rouT OK iio.sni.N. Imimiliitiiin 11/ Jinh •>/ iill kinilH fritm Ihiliith .S'lulh .Imiiiin ilinimi Ihi inlnnUiv ijiiim Hl.'i to \r-1t',. Vitlii Duty. 1^ I'l.Mo If.tn. I'lir ii'ij >i'iiiH iHliii' lo till' u'<'i|iiii( liy ti('iii.>, Inn iioii III ,\car ili'iliiiii'il. A II II III! I iivi)rii;{i< '. ,' Mii.ilii'Kt .M'lir, I fill l.illHrKl .Miir, I^.M I»,'.,"i III I'.ilO lliniiic irrl|iiiiril V. A 11 11 nil iiviTimo iMiii to iflA. I''iii' tiliif yi'iiiN iilii'i' till' h iiiiiiiatliiii ol' li'nity, liiii'llnii ut yMr llillllclrll, A II II mil IIVIil'Htfl' I'm till' jiiif iHiii , |:i:iH !i:i'j 1 1 «iiT, .'ui:! ;ii I'A •ir.jig :i;i, i;m iiT mm, -ro 00 ig:i, ii^ii iii k:i;i,!iii in 7III1, rij ,'i,-. 101,011; vj tl.'i I, UliO ou xir. I'our (ir iiii.srn\, liiiiiiiilalioH ii/jUh-iiil/nim Jlriiinh .\(trlli Aiiuriiii tliiiiinj lln- mliiiiliir i/iutx I- l.'i In l-Tii. Viilur. Duty. i fiiii i-l'ilii l-.'i''. I'm till .\riii'H iniof to Iho riHti|ii'iM il,\ (li'iliH'tcit. A II 111 ml iivcl'U^r tl'i'iily, fiai'tlon ol' yrar 1 fill, C'O m AM 00 U<9, DHI IIII |H,fiO!l Kl 1:1^, U7:i :iii 1 110,011 no 10, I'll 00 «H, i.-ig Vi Hti li5 SiiinllcHl \far, lHl.% I.MiuisI Vi'iii'. •■'■"'■J if, '>'M Vi} .\iiiiiiiil iivi'iiijii', otnltdlitf 1H,VJ l-.'i.'i III Ifliii. Km in;; iiTipiiKil.v. Aiiiiiiiil umiiiui' l-i;i; to l-'i."i. I'lir iiinii viiirM iilicr tlii' ti'iiniiiatliin 0 (Iciliicicd. A till mil avoiuKo ' tiialy, fiartion ol ycni' :i, li.vi 01 17, |i « vjl Iiii till' Noar Ir-Tli XIII. Expot'l of fink from Ihc ('nitid NldtiH lo Jtiiliiih North .tmirlra. IH67. Ii-lii* . l.-iW , I -71) . if:i . 11-7;! . i»'7:j . l-7t . 1-7,1 . l''7ii . 1-77. 11108. til Mcli. Ill Aild lor iild'. ri'iii'O in rcluiii.'i in l,'^70. Di'iliict lor illircronio in ntiirns in 1^7.") UomoHtlc. Fori'l){ii. Total. *'M, 90, u;i, ■«7, ;iH, ;ii, IM, 4\, 1.10, IKU, 7HU ;H7 :i.'i:i IVfi 077 oi:t Ii7',' 0-!l 710 S''il a:).". ♦17, 370 11,011 i7,'J|H :t!i, 70 1 HIi, Ollll :i7, O,".!) liii, o.'i:i .•.i,7;ifi 'A i;ii 24, •>4H 1, ii-^o *00, IfiS :w, :t.'ii •10, .■i7 1 ^^7, aiiii i-ji, oh:< tiH, o;i:i 70, 7 a.-, h;i, h-j.-. Iill. h7I 17-1, Hill) l-JI,Slil «l'4i-, 101) 09 i'MH, anH 3 i■ r provincttii. It. N. A. KoroiKii. IhinioHtk- Tutiil 30. 310 79,711 IIH, .1n5 .'■4, 900 69, 979 79, 1.33 .W, 48r< 100, 975 907 1,470 I,1M5 8, .'>3I 8. 580 8, 889 0,831 .174 3, 354 fi,87l 4. 513 10. .170 7,890 1,803 9. 149 7, 3.10 T.t.,1. 4,a(ii 7,747 5, fiOn 13, 187 9, 740 4, 0<)8 ll,3H0 7, 984 ♦•in. 411. ■7. I 'J I. I'-. "'.I. 'I c.i; 171. I'JI. till .'.71 4.'." 7'J'. ■ii;i #••!-, 'J-.'. XV. rilODUCT OK TIIK A.MKUICAN FiSIIKUIKS KXCKI'T TIIK WllAI.K. 1H70 r>,.ii:»,iM;7 1H71 n,4H-.>,41ii 1872 l», .V2(!, «M: l^[\. f,.14H, iK'i 1H74 i», ri2'2, :>.•>:! lH7r, 10.747.r>7!> 1H7G 10,r)4^l,^-l Annual Average '>, :Slii XVI. ViELD AND VaI.UK O!" TIIK CaSAIIIVN FiSIIKIllK.S. The following figures are taken from the annual reports of the Canadian Ministir ui Murine and Fisheries. 1870 Estimate ?;7,00n,00(» 1871. 1872. 1873. 1874. 1875 . 187C. do.* 8,000.0(»0 .Return y,r.70, llC . do 10, 754, •Wr' . do ll,G81,8«ti . do 10,347, 8(-(; , do ll,01'J,45l * See report for 1871, page CO. XVII. Exports of fish from liriliah Xorlh America. • Total ex- ports. TotheriiiteJ Slates. 1870 •3,608,549 3, 994, 875 4, 348, 508 4,779.877 5, 993, 368 5, 380, 587 5, SOI, 881 475,880 1871 1878 1873 1874 (l.Alti.m 1875 l,ti4l,i«^ 1876 - 1,475,W 1875, six inoiiths, ended Dec. 31. MACKKRIL. 40'i, Kl" 1 ~- _„. . - , ... . _ .. .^^__^^^^___^_____ AWARD OF TIIK KIHIIKRY COMMISSION. 3367 ) Ihe other iiiK'iiiitx n, H. N. A. Rtlc T..1.1I. Totnl. iiiit. '.li' :i'J. til 3M 4,S)ii>, 'Jr.". WllAI.K. .. r,,:n:»,w7 .. ll,4H.>,4lii ... l»,.Vi(i.C.4T ... H,n4H,lr<;. ... y.r/i'i,').-):? ... 10,747, r.7i> ... 10, 54.'), '•71 . i),-jr>r),:5i(; IKS. Canadian Minist.r ui . $7,000,0011 . 8,000,000 , y, 570, 1 10 . 10,754,IW.- . ll,G81,rt«f. ,. 10,347,8hC) . ll,01U.45l Total ex- ToUielnite'l ports. I Stiites. 13,608.549 3, 9«4, 275 4, 348, 508 4,779.877 5,292,368 5,380,587 5,501,881 475,880 »I,ltlt!,W3 l,tHI,**' 1,475,W 40ri,63* XVIII. Tabh Hhoiving Ihv aliitittUii of /*»■ mttiiufiutHre of miiihiidtH oil and giiitno in Ihe I'nittd Slult* in Ihe yf urn lrt7:J, 1H74, 1«75, H7(>. IKTS. 1871 No. iif rartorluK in oppintion 08 No. cil' Nnn-vitHHcU I'liipliiyud 383 Nil. »l Rl<'niii'V<lit " 90 Nil. <>r iiiiin 7 Total iiiiiiilitir uf liii'ii t», 87.'i Il,.'i«i8,0i3 1876. 64 390 46 9, 7:i.s *3, 7.'iO, 000 .'■18 4riO, OIK) l,.Vt5, H -, 8, !)98, 000 51, 94.'> 864, 000 7. 87.% $1,107,040 •.'lO:!, 6!),'i • I, 670, 735 'I'lital nuiiilior iif inniiliailoii aiiiiiially lakm on the coant of tho t'nitril Ntalcs, fHliiiinte 7.'i0.ooo,000. In lf74 one conipany, on the roast of Now .lormiy, |>iit up :<0.0()0 ilozi'n Iioxph of nivnliiuli'ii in oil, iiiiilt'i' III), iiaiiio of "Aiiii.riraii Hanllnim," tlii> valiio oi' whirb was, at li.aHt, i\H) i)Ot). III! thi' i-oaHt nf Now Knglanil thiiivllvo ilorkoil vohhkIh, anil nuiiioniiiH Hiiiall oiicx, onunuo in llio liiiit HkIu'iv. tlio catch oi; which appruxliniitoa 100,000 Imrrula annuully, worth fruiu 1100,000 t^i 1130,000. I, Ilniuilton Andrews 11 ill, of Boston, in the County ot' Sutt'olk and Couunonweiilth of Massachusetts, being duly sworn, do hereby depose and declare that I was Secretary of the Boston lioard of Trade from 18(JV to 1873, and of the National Board of Trade of the United States frou) its organization in 1SC8 to 1873, during which time I was con- stantly engaged in studying the trade of the United States and other countries, and have had much experience iu compiling stMtistics, and tliat 1 have compiled the series of tables hereto annexed relating to the tisiieries and tho trade in flsh between the United States and British North America, .and that they are correct to the best of ray belief. These tables are numbered from one (1) to seventeen (17) respectively. Num- bers (1) one to (8) eight and (10) ten and (13) thirteen to (15) Qfteen, were compiled from the annual volumes on Commerce and Navigation issued by the Bureau of Statistics at Washington, and from special tables relating to the Fisheries and the Fish trade, prepared under the direction of Dr. Young, Chief of that Bureau. Number nine (9), eleven (11) and twelve (12) were compiled from state- ments made up at the Custom IIou.se in Boston. Number si.\teen (16) was made up from the Annual Keports of the Canadian Minister of Ma- rine and Fisheries. Number seventeen (17) is imperfect, and the figures which it contains have been taken from such Canadian authorities as I have had access to, and from Official Reports furnished to the State Department at Wa.shingtou by the Consul General of the United States at Montreal, and the American Consul at Halifax. Number two (2) shows the annual importation of Fish and flsh pro- iliicts into the United States from British North America, from 1807 to IS77. Number seventeen (17) gives partial returns of the Exports of the same commodities from British North America to the United States. It will be noticed that in the corresponding years, the values returned iu the Canadian tables of fish exported to the United States are not the e(|iiivalent to those given in the American tables of fish imported from. * -»fl vA fM 1 "'T, 1 \r\ ■ »''^ "V-\ ' a.'jns AWARD OF TIIK FIHIIKUY COMMIHKION. Canada, an it iiiiKlit nucjii that tlioy slioiild !>(>. TIiIm, linwi'vcr, is m coiiounlatMH^ with wiiat iH usually obHurvablo in cuiiipariii^' the timlc n- ports of any two countries with each other. Tlu^ export returns ot ti,,. ontf always vary from tlin import returns of the other, and usually tin' value of the former appears as less than that of the latter. The I'cas.m for this is that the returns of exports are usually nnide up from .s|ii|w manifests and similar doeuments, often hastily and imperfectly inaiii up; but on the arrival of a ear^o at itsdestiruition, when it bei'oiiicsan import, and perhaps liable to duty, itisearefullyand speeitlcally reptutcil upon Custom Mouse entries with (Complete invoi n turns of the authorities iii the imp(»rtiiiK country are generally a(*)'|it(i| therefore, as showinj; the true course of trade. Number four ( t) shows the amount saved in duties on tisli iin|)uitt'it into the United States from Catmda, under the provisions o\' the Tr(;ity of \Vashin},'ton, to a vei i;,'e annually for the three years 1874 to ISTti. about three hundred and forty thousand dollars ($;{4(>,(»00.(K(.) 'riusc Hfjures are the residt of careful estinuites. Numbers thirteen (I.'J) and fourteen (14) show the American exports of Fish, of both domeHti<; and foreign ])rodn(;tion to the Dominion of (Jan- ada, and to the other I'rovinces of Hiitish North America, from l.H(i7 to 1877. These returns will lie found to vary from the corresitoiidinj; returns of Canadian import, (which do not appear at all in these tiiiilt>si very inuch more than the American returns of imports vary from tin- Canadian returns of exports, to which reference has alreatly been miuU', and for the additional reason that a very large part of the tish sent from the United States into Canada, goes by rail, and is not reported at all at any American Custom J louse, while it is of course entered at a Ciiii adian Custom House, us soon as it has crossed the frontier. Numbers thirteen (Ki) and fourteen (14) show the value of fish taken out of bond in the United States to be exported to Cana. Foster, Notary Public, before whom my oath to this atlidavit ia nnide. (Signed) HAMILTON ANJHtEWS HILL. Commonwealth of Massaciiusests, Boston, June 8th, 1S77. SUFFOLK, S. S. Then personally ai)peared the above named, Hamilton Andrews Hill. and man on r.i\ rti:. Htm !K>8 f , n4:i. riii 51,140, 10 :>oj, ) !I7, .Vlfi. ."id !t, !l7tl, 7:i '.'. 4.'i:i 1(19, .Mf, ;ii !i. Mill, .■m y. ii'.iii 71^, 3'.Mi. Ill ll,,^!,,'.^ a, iHf HI, 300, li-l 10, 4e«, ai 3,311 87, 803, 13 m 3.'J60 AWAHU OF THK PIBHERY COMMISSION. III. HtatiHticM prcpuri'd by Mr. Goode. III. I, (ieori;*) nrowa (ioodi*, of tho City of WashiiiKtoii, in the DiNti let of Columbia and United HtatoM of America, being duly Hworn, do dt>|Misi> and say that I am tho AssiNtaut Curator of tlio United States National Museum, and for the laot ei^ht years 1 have been engaged in NttidNin;; the natural history and habits of tho fishes of tho North Atlantic < oiist^ nnd during the last six years I have been an assistant to the I'liit'il States Fish Commission, and during that time it has been part of my employment to collect and arrange statistics as to the amount ot tlw fish taken on the coast of the United States, — that the tables lieieto an nexed uere compiled from statistics and returns nuide from the ililVti ent fishing towns of tho Northern Atlantic States to the United Statis Fish Commission, and that the same are true to the best of Uiy know I edge and belief; that the prices stated of tho various kinds of lisli, aiv actual prices as paid for said fish in Fulton Market, New York City,— that tho table marked XVIII, (see Part I, Appendix O), entitUMl: "Table Showing Statistics of tho Manufacture of Monhadden Oil ami Guano in tho United States, in the years 1873, 1874, 1875, 18"' ,'" was also compiled by me from tho returns of tho United States Fish (.'oni mission, and that tho same is true to the best of my knowledge ami belief. GEORGE BUOWN GOODK. PROVINCE OF NOVA SCOTIA, ) COUNTY OF HALIFAX, SS. f Halifax, October UUli, 1877, Then personally appeared the above-named George lirown Goode, ami | made oath that the foregoing attUlavit, by him subscribed, is true to tlu' best of his knowledge and belief, before me, L. G. POWER, Notary Fuhlu: EsTiMATKU Total ov Amkiucan Fimiikkiks kou 1870. Consolidated table of Hea-flshorics cast of Capo May i:!.o:1 LkiiiH, of fur, mill other hoaIh, niiil of thoir oil. For those tliirty millions lofdollnrs (130,000,000) i8 cotiHiilured to bii ti riiiHoiiiililo OHtiiiiiite. WkIUH ANn TllAl'M. Mod. ^lutli Hi(l« of Ci»i»o CimI a:» 88 I Xirtliii'H ViiiKyanl Soiintl St :Ui Bii/znnl'i* llHy 30 IKI BUk IhIiuiiI :i Vi yarriiKiuinett I»ay W 'i\0 |ljkcH 100 — 14 100 9 UA'M 211 P rf ■ >»' ,i i( ■ -M ■ t-H 3362 AWARD OP TIIK FISHERY C0MMIN8I0N. VliOliVi'TSo/M,iHntt,.h.r„» or K I.<«»)liillK FiNllKRIKa. iiliarU'* Couiliirtvd Iruui tlm Hliort Miait Vatii.'. lici.r.'ju- I'liund*. ^ WholanaUt Vulii*. £ a Kotail Valuv. i r mm 6 rioilliilnra Mill KlMIUh HalllMiKfritiili) 1, inn. 1100' 4 73.0«0' 148, IflO* Ni'W York " (ourwIlUlouufiiUr, &o,. flltvliM. •• flu* .... .... ... " na|M« Cod (frmh) Ni(■ 4(NJ,J|.-i Olouoxntcr. liuiloii. &c " otin-il •• riH>H 1 3 3 H M MM 3. IMM) 7, :m 41). a4 1 978, 400 «i H 5 15 15 l.HOO H.CMM) 19. .-MM) uu, :i:ia 39«, 150 ToinoiNl ...•••.,. , ,,, Cuiinur ... I'nutof Mackerel (frpuli) " Clll'l'tl Hpan Uli &I ac kitrel 103, IMM) U, IMM), MM) 5, 0(M) 1, .MM), IMM) .'lO.OOO IN), 000 1, rrt, «oo 10,000 7.'>, mM) 7.'i, «(M) 7, 7«K), 000 50H, .'MM) l-i:i,ti(M) 7, OfiH, 0(M) 41)0, 000 1194, KM, OINI 1150, INM) 7.5.000 3, 770, aoo 40, lOU 7, •M:^, 000 1. 004, bOO 5 CO 7 4 a II 15 3 15 05 10 15 4 10 9«l, 9.50 1II),IMI0 :i, IMN) ID.'i, IMM) a, IMM) 1, KM) 103, n.'>o 1. 5 3i, 5tN) 1711, IMNI .5, IMM) 995, IMM) 4, IIINI 9,700 179, 7tM) 9, .'MM) 7.500 15.000 fiaO.rtlO W», 77.-. 94, 640 505. 440 l>0,000 "^1 H)' II 11 » 90 7» "4 !?l m •i". -75 1 4:1,11011 4. IKHI 1 lll.'.,IKIII ,1 IDlll • 9, -JUl I3h, 'Jii. 9. mill i, fi'i'i 1:1, li-. 5114. 41J11 71, "I'Jt 91, %t*l 494, m M, (ltd) liontto I'oiiipaDo .•.•...••...•....••. Hwo'-lflnh HtittvrNiili, WhlUiiK, Wliilo l>eroh 8mi Itobina 8(1 uDtoauuo KliiKtUh Hnot anil ('nmkor HlMM'iiiilicntl 8cu|> Be* llatia atriiM'd HnM Itlurllih Smelt Kt'la la 5 5 :H). IMM) 3,7,50 1)M, 510 Ih 10 45, IMM) 7,500 9«9,705 37, .■rtl 9:1.'., tkT) Sturtfeoii ••. H«a8ba(l.. Haliiioii ............ Aluwil'u 9* 30, »& 39.01)0 1 4 73. WO 04. l'.)9 ..t 1 3 .'>.'!. :ii":( UorrluK " (cured) JIU, 57!). 0.'O 887.393 la, 710, 041 14, Wf , S04 t4. (IC>4, i-i 13, IM (1,118) N. H — The riirt-il cod have bueii reatoreil to their tfreen weljtht (three tlmea aa much). mackerel UaTu be«u rvatored totUelr i;i'eua weight (uue-Hixtli adilitloual). Tlit> mIM t'i'krriu M.«ii Vulur. IMi.nau i 6 m HMI. (NN) ;n'.i, '.a l.JUIll ,'i. :m I 1(1, INNI 7(1, "!"■ 400. 3ir> I ""•i'-'. u.\. iNHi : 4.IIIHI I Hi.'.. IKHI ' .1 mill •J. •£« I J3c, •-I" •> (Kh i, I.Ti ' 1). 1-i 5lH, 41*1 1 7l."Wt •Jl, .V4i 4'J4, l"*l .'i(l. IKM ' " ' 37, .'lilO 4f<, 144 14, Ufil, 4-« 13, iM AWARD OF TIIR FIBIIKKY COMMIMHION. ,f Siirlkern Allnntic Stalin, • .{.163 ())»'<>llciHK KlnlirMIKM. Or Kliilii>rl<*N (y'uniliii'tKil In l»rK« vi'mwU, |irluri|i»lly ov<• 1 Vuliiii. 'I'n "i.'iniVV ia{| ia.\ (NNI ... a:Mi,oio «| la 7.^1 iitililtViNNI l.miii INNI '■4 10 a *"'4IO,'.vi(V U'll, INNI llil), .'lao 10, .'WO UAO i, h.vi.'n.w l.-NI INN) i.mn.ooo irm.nao 1, na, JO.". la."), INNI wnH, nui la, 7.VI a7,'. :M.'., (NNI HNI, INNI :i, rtWf, !ii."i' l,iia.'. .'., .VNI III, (INI 70, 7MK 701.040 i,«74.aaa* an, h7,'> I4:i, (NNI 4, (NN) II..V IKNI :i. INN) a. a.".o i:ir<. a(H a. (NNI .'., lias i:i, la.'. Mi. 100 74, Kia ai,.'M->o 4a4, OmO .VI, INN) l,B.'i7,7!NII 37,300 \ tias 81'., 6.17 H. iiao .W, 3M7 4H, 144 4:iii, Hxi* f 4'ill. INNI MU TNNI 7t l.'s INNI 3 Mm • l,.->4ll,tl40 '^)ll, 0(NI 10, uoo n «73 «i.oas,ooo \tn 1141, TOO 3,311), itia 3113 «I4,.NI,7(NI MNI. (NNI UN), INNI a.'>(l, (NNI (ll.V .VN) (1, IHNI, INN) 3.%, Itia, INN) lll,V INN) a, aoo, INN) .\ (NN) 1, .VNI, (NNI .VI. (NNI INI, INNI 1, 7S7, fiOO III, IMNI 7,\ IN)0 7.%, (NN) 7, 7(U), (NHI .'.!IH, .'NNI ia3,aoo 7, milt, (NN) 400, OIN) 703, 740, .VN) a30, (NN) 7.-1, (UN) 3, 770, U(N) 4(1, UNI 7, 3c:., (NN) .'i, 1104, HOO ( aa, 3MI, 7(NI > '411, (M10 1 aoo at 430 11 «,«!.'>, non 3S,li;N,IHNI H «00,800 13 3'M ll'ii ni ||i.>i<.\ M ,,. i'Kiltrhit t llfhrr, IKI„I.., •HI. |. filiilimiHl 11/ tkr ImiiotlaliiiHx III ntniktrti inln Ihi imrt ol IIdkIiih, Jiiiiuiirii l«f, |»77, i„ \,., timbtf Mtlh. I-;*. Kllllll No^iiMtMdliiiintl Niiw itriiiiii wiek. I'rtiira Mwart ULumI IMa. TalM. 1 m.u. ' v,i,., 11^7. Iiiiiuarjr I'l'iiiimry ••• 3, HO MX r.»7 4.7:W \ VVi n. IM U, l ini 'II. H'l mi IM/I.VJ IN) Mmrli April M*V •lulls July Auifunt •• ••••■•••••••«•••# •• 1 'i;tii» iHi All ;i. IMiim 7 .M7 fi!l 'J'j'j III ^•tiiamlior «, :u)lt M'Oiii ni •M, ;>i« |tf7N,.'MI 00 U,.'i4i)t rlw. lit: IHI — Mo liii|HirUtloM of luackurel froiu New ruuiidlnnil. Ilimriiv I'l *l'ii'i- „tA ii/Hi-f ih-ini„r r, i-r. 1 liiTobv ciTtlfy IIki riiiniiuliiu Ntatt'tiiviiti lu bu tiuc, lis ■iilMurllitt uiHiii till' riTiinli nf ihUnllli < |U. ■.) ' - ir I J ^1 HSKK. Ami. U'i't. t'oll..l..r nr. Statement taken from the Jiuokn of Gloucester Virmn^ — protlKirtl In/ M, . linhnon, — Jileit by Mr, Foster on October 24, LS77, and objecteil to in/ ihr liritUh Vohnsel as not beiiuj property rerijietl, and therefore inmliiiinsilili as evidence, but admitted by Vonimissioners for what it may be worth, T, HENJ. F. I5LAT(TIKOKI), an Iiispoctor of (.'iistoms, foi tlio Dis trict of (tluiiceNtor, on oiitli, do dopiKso and say, that nt tlit^ rciiucst of Hon. ]>\vi};lit Foster, 1 visited tiiu (Ishiii^ ilrnis of this city, and ic quested from tbein a statement, taken from their Inntks, of the iiiimher ot vessels employed in the Itay of St. Lawrence mackerel lisln-ries, ami the number of Bay mackerel packed by them each year, from isdii to 1877. Also the same statistics in re^rard to the United Stales slioie mackerel llshery, ar.d annexed I send a true copy of their several re ports made to me marked A, U, «&c. BFNJ. F. BLATCUFOKl). Massacuitsetts, Ksskx, SS. Personally appeared, said HIatchford, who made oath to the truth ol the above atlidavit. liefon; me, AAHON PAHSONS, Justice of the re'ur. Muhtt ttk. Kl l»t, t-77, (" ^'i' AWAItn OF TIIF. FINIIKRY (OMMINMION. Ihiiiil Low if t'o.'» tialrminl. asns Yr«rii, 'mi , •»»<••» till X l«ti 11" :,n f:i 'tti 11" '.Ml I tw! Mil nil 7>4»i JltJ. «"■ '»' iiiUiirtiiiNiiiii" ^1 KISKK, ' "•' ■ *••••••■ ••(•••t«»***a*i t*< • • . * •••••••••••••••••• I *ti^ •••t*«*«tt»» ••••■••••••• ■••••• •#•** •• • !••••# •••• i««i» 1-10 i-n i>:j i>:i loi 1-:.^ I'M !•« 1. !. I i ■i" l.«4n l.mt- 1»I7 l.»«a i.wn I, If Ml 4iiO l,!(44 I, .\f N'oni> :nu i.mt it>ji» t. 4)i:i :i. till) •i, VJtt I, •!•» I.ICI" «, 1177 «, J> 4, 77,% l,Oti;i I, rat 4 xn 4. "i:l :i, "'W l.!rt< • »«4 4. .-11)9 W. 44i;i 4. 77.\ til ()<-l. M r*ii>l>li ^luttf he worth. ^ 1^, ',«;'i ms, for tho Dis | :!;' It tlio ri'tjiH'st t)t liiH city, luul iv ■ :;,' t Uio iiumlu'ittt ■j;-3 •1 lishorU's, ami ■ \.■^ ill', from lf^'''» t" i'tl Stall's sliou' lii'ir several if B. — Ptitengetl <>• I'uimingham'H glatenunl. 'Vhfy lit li vnnttol*. 1i .3 5 7 8 10 0 II a I I » 9 I l> 0 li 4 5 t s 10 I i.iiao a, 1)7.1 i.niH :i, ii),'i U. 4ll.'i 4, Ii.'i7 i.;t4.'> IHlii i:i4 11)7 .Vi 17, I4g I. s »S3 l,U4S «, 174 9, 177 l.'.ilT I,ti:i4 4, lr<0 l,4.'M) .%,.1m9 1.004 84.69U .9 to i 1^ 1 Viaid. •1 « ?£' A :i ' \a " J = V .j e 9 *\ * 3 4 'A 4 4 .') 0 5 4 3 4 r. 4 1,900 UOO I.ro Bill) illMI est) 4WI :uiii i.'.(i a I*; 4 0 3 3 3 1 3 ! ?: 1 i l.ROO I,: . h50 I*! l.flUO Its 1 3H0 KO I,U)0 •:i l,O.V) W3 1, .100 iCI . 1, 150 Kl 1,500 !•" . 1.380 I'"'' . 1 5 130 1,900 •;: . a 3 800 300 . '\» .I* ' . J' J-' i l\MG AWARD OK TIIK KlflllKKY COMMINMIOlir. C.— fl'm. I'uriimi, 'i»l, ^ '».'• t^ntrmml. Tliay 111 II >r»M l.ii.'ifi INI7 Mil IKW «» i ir^i U< i"l •>ii <. It'j i.'.rt I, I'll U'V I iw I Ml 11,1*11 \).—A\,frfi Mantfifhf»»Uitrmr«i. TliKv III !• TxawU. YMrt. J !. 1 3 II » a 0 6 :i 1 fl li 1 '1 llMI« Imi7 IWIN D lU 11 III i;i ln.^ 1 »i, ^7)l V OKI IU7 1 n«> IMIII Moiui •! I'M |p<70 ; Niinx . . :i I'll |h7I IMI 1 XII in7a Niiiw MM if.7:i 1, 197 l<*! IH74 t.'XVI 'l»i |H7.'i Ml 1 'ijt lM7n Nuiie....! I.IM IH77 E.— /f. MailiiovVi atntemeut. I'l'llBy lit 10 V.'IMMllll ■ III N' oiiu . Non«. Xoiio to (lato. 1-77.... rtl IMI [« W« M «.M » 1 nil v> i II; "1 , 1 .-.Tl «l1li 1. Wl KW «« ao l.'fiT 1 Ml . t* U.a4l AWAKIt OK TIIK nHIIKUV ( DMMIMHION, !'.—/>. ( . .1 //. HaU*,tn't iliilmmt iThi-jr III 13 •Matte. I ;i;u;7 1 1 1 i' i. Yaar*. Ijr ! '1 1* 1^ IM 1 1 -iW 3.-M (•41 3 1, ii«l m;I4 !•«• ft 4V. ttlA I-W ;l mil W I*M >• N)tl .1. IIS I'll l\ 'X-l I.4W (•TV i ;iHi I.IWA I<;;l 3 1. no l.:n).% I'll ,% r,» U, 04.1 l•1.^ A fl4a I.IIMt 1*111 « 3,I»1T ['•n 4 i;b. Hill 1 ^ i 1" l V ■ ton 1 1'l, Mil 'i l-Kl 11)7 1 M«( If .. ■J IJII ).' . 1, iA Vlxl 1 III II' 1. 1.* , I'i7 1-1 .•iU ■J, IM 1*1 1 "H 11' . ■ l,l'"l Si 1, ••HMt 1,(MH) I.PIHI ' ,'jm IMK) TilMI ll,.'>IH) III) 10...- in 110 to ,t«. •I \m 1 '^ ^,—Sialemiiil of I'erkiha llrolhim, |Th»y fltn vi'imeU.) YMrM. J !^ 4 'A iM'id K iN«i>lK, I Year*. a I' ^ J ■s"^ t It •! a d 6 ^ ':j 1 n.% \'t« 1,497 k: • y 'A ■^\ t ! " I I \,l I :'<* '■'' .%^ .4' I 1^ IB !;ti 3368 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. I. — Stalrminl <>J tt'iUiatn <'. fyontoa. |1I« llliei vi'U«tla.| Vcarii, IMMI l(l«7 IHIH IMH) 1H70 IK71 lH7.i IHTI Ilf74 lH7n lH7)t 1H77 .9 i". i (.J n ,1 ^^ it; '/i » 1) 4 n 0 3 (1 1 0 a u ■J 4 301 1 0 5 0 0 5 (I :i 4 felH »j a 4l)ii u 0 u 0 0 il 1) a (1 0 a 0 'jii: ','1,' If... Mi; ;ii I ■,',>.: II II i iiM J. — Stattmcnt of (liorge Suyward. (IIo lltR S vchhi'Ih. I a ■« w i a ^^ : . SJ f c 2! i i Years. h i-3 of acke ':■? o o ia X = 6 6 ^ 'A a •i 3 3 1 3 1 a 8 1 0 1 i^ »81 fi4l ti.'r> i!T!) i!3:i SI3 4»i 41!) 743 !2()(l 0 U - um 1 1 a 0 1 3 t 0 0 0 0 0 •I lH(i7 111 IWiri vi:m IHOO 0 J870 1871 ."■J 1878 •:i 1873 11 1874 II 1875 0 1870 II 1877 (i K. — Statement of Dniiiel Sayward, |He tiU4 voNMelH.I a !a >^ ., o S3 JS m .a . = ■ Tears. f'i 1 '^ U.2 ^S. "^ ^•x, 2 i« <« *' a o o ^a •r. s 6 o ^ "A ;« » ~ 1866 2 4 3 5 3 6 4 2 a 1 0 2 3 o 4 3 « 3 3 a a 1 0 0 1, 275 l.OfH SOI 1, 032 422 1, 134 373 54!) 367 91 0 0 »1 1«J67 •JM 1868 s i.i«i: 1869 a" 1870 1,I.W 1871 •JO 1873 HJ 1873 « 1874 ffl 1875 :j 1876 0 1877 0 i t 0 7W 1 (1 •in: a 0 '»,i 4 301 '.K'i n II \Mr. .% II nr. 4 Hh :i\i 'J 41lit ■M 0 U I) 0 0 II ! » a ,.M| R !l 7IM) 7fr. 1 IM 1^7 i,:i!ii I 1 ,ij ;i iiM :i, :i:i-j 7, i;7i) 104 i«"'i '\ i'*'i |.-i; . , 11', -.jilt I'H M. — Stakmeitt 0/ Samtict Ifankrll. I lie flta 5 vchhiiIh. | Yfarg. .S i o 'A .2 3 pa JS 3 .a II 0 5SU nri :m5 5411 0 C79 780 0 u 0 0 4US no4 r,75 1,2114. I, I4:t. 710 1,-J-Jli :i(W I N. — statement 0/ Smith (j- Oakcs. (Tlioy tit 7 vCHnols.) , a ia 0 1, ^ X « ^. I- ii •s^ i r Years. ^« ■is -^ •■s.a 0^ 1 ''.a •• ja u y u 3} rt 1 ia i 5 . 0 6 0 6 4a 4a § ^ >^ 'A a n ;4 • w 3 5 4 1 I 6 3 l.ltIO i;r>3 i.w ,VJ0 125 3 1.275 1 1,08>< SOI .'iltO w !!!!!!! "!"!"!!!!!""1!!!!'"!!!!""!II!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 Kll . . 1, I7fl 4 Kl .530 6 i,o;« 432 1,134 373 540 3C7 91 0 0 1,W Ki K3 0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 587 0 0 0 U 0 3 if:i 0 3 K 0 'i K6 0 0 *:i : 0 1 0 0 } ^ ^^l!'" \A\ III !tK 5370 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 0. — Statement of Samuel Lane if Ilro. fThey ; ^M IHiH ^■hd Hmo ^ii<;i ^■|>7:i Hr.ll Hk4 Hi»;5 Hum ■ l!~ /} Q. — Statement of Walcn .j- AUen. [They fit 13 vessels.] Years. 1870 1871 1873 1873 1874 187S 1878 1877 00 >, o 6 .!^ 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 34 n SOD 0 iy 645 h 0 i 602 M 333 2.1 108 M 70 l.( 0 i 1,958 11.8 LCESTER, Oci AWARD OF THE FISHERY C0MMI8SI0N. 3371 ('.59 0 94fi ;wj 471 0 3t>9 f^n 0 l,i-:i 111 i,;w 31 H r.r , Itd-J 4ns .OJJ l,7f.: (1 1,'M 0 ;),.-ii 0 l.XJ U. — tStatemeiit of DeHnin .f .fyw. [Thoy nt 19 tonmU. | Yonr». I -til). I H'- 1-70. Irtl. 1-Ti. 1-13. Kl. H75. IrTB. a IB e J •1 h u t! 0 o e! e k; 'A 13 8 13 « 12 14 11 13 13 14 8 13 8 5 8 8 7 n 1 4 1 5 0 4 I n, 370 3, 303 1,873 a, 372 3, 550 3, 585 9,9fl7 3,504 3, 455 111) 136 0 i. '- u « S 733 •Ml 1,758 1,014 8,460 3,491 1, 150 I, 1 00 i,nio 3,210 3, 251 433 S. — Joseph 0. Procter'a statement. 9 3 . 9 ' > -^ "^ u S % « = ^ ! K 3,130 Si: .W. 1 !,(;:■ 1,115 ■V 5ri4 2, a 1,108 1 •J,!"i 1,101 ' 'J, * l,70fi 1 i.:5 1,H8 , 3,:.: 814 1 •,',45 161 ••i.i'i i)t ar- 4 ivcd. — —- « 10, on 4!,M Tears. s at ,r 7 7 8 3 2 3 5 0 7 5 1 1 1 a Bbls. of bay mackereL £ e r. 188 403 102 1, .nun 3, 302 8,138 807 1, IH8 3.-.0 831 445 107 "5 1 l-iifi 1 3 3 5 7 6 3 3 3 1 1 1 3, 187 1, 077 1, 000 637 458 713 1, 324 2,71.1 3, 456 8in 100 3, 255 m 3, 380 U : ::;:....:...::::;::::::;::::. 1,201 Hilt 3, 172 ]r'{) 3, 8.')() Kl 2, 850 I""'' 2 131 I-::) 3,880 m 3,815 b;-, 1, 046 I'M 635 K7 T. — Statement of James G. Tarr > « 9 eS n .a . 2 , Years. 50 1*. is "s n s o ^3 tS e d 3 .a 3 2, 013 1,312 680 619 518 1,054 n Ml 7.">8 1« 3 3 3 4 3 4 6 5 956 H- 197 K!) 1,780 KO 4, £40 K\ 1,138 fA 8 3 787 1, 100 ra 2 O 0 3 9 3 3 I 5 660 774 1,000 K4 3,510 ,>;,-. 2,537 K6 197 650 4,000 ?77 ; 1,800 Gl,0LCE8Tr,R, Oct. 17, 1877. JAHES G. TABR &. BRO. ir 3^72 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. ll.—StaUmint of Clark J- Somen. Venn. JS "A « ft 7 4 0 1 1 •8 lj IS* 'A i t s 1 \m\ 1W17 K^Ort iHlil) mo 1871 'i ti \ 3 4 d 9,001 9. h!i 9, :i:):i 1, 407 1878 \fT.i ... . 1874 1 it SdMKS, V. liy 1'. Yrnrs. 5^5 e A 1H(!7. IfM. IHC!). 1870 1871. 1H7U. iH7y 1874 1S73. 1H7C. 1877. 3 o 8 I 4 I 4 1 I }| 1 I 39 3 4 4 8 10 19 4 5 8 » 10 5 89 S. i ■a 5 3, 4r)« 3,070 l,4H(i 1,0 8 1, 09ri ii;t ii;:i 145 901 i/'il 1, .'S. II i< I, 'M'i 1,1 ti. 'ill :i. ri I. 'I 11,047 1 certify tbat the abovu is a true statement from tlio bouks of Joseph Kriciul nml ti'stiflid In bmiJ A.CAKTEK. i)<>;.. O.K. ' W. — Statement of Giorge Xorirood ^ Son, Years. i No. of vessels in bay. \ No. of vessels off shore. 2 -: I860 , 1867 1668 1869 . . . ... ]r(70 1871 4 2 5 ii ,■> 9 4 3 3 800 i .it 695 :5 1, 866 f^ ii3 1879 1873 1874 1875 •-'.o: 1876 if 1877 GKO. N ORWOOD A: SOX ICloliester, Oi't. AWARD OF THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. 337.T X.—SlaUmcnt of (norge hknd .)' Co. 1. 2 104 107 'r.i SiiMES, Uv 1'. I !!••.. llOi,. Iki.. lie . Is:).. Iks.. It". ittMt ; YoiiM. i S i i 4 1 * a .1 s J as 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1, W17 tl-.>J 9, 17,1 'Mi 1171 OE(tl!(iK IklKM) \ CO. It.V .IdllN J .SIKS. , 4.1(1 1 ■;i , 070 ' 1, ''1; ,4»« j l.iiii ,0> 1 !1, 0 * , 0!»ri 4, I'll n:t \:» ii;:i l.Mi HS l.W 1201 r,, .M' :i.<: ,047 ;i'.i, i.-H I'Htiflrd 1 V b;ni EK. Ttti'. o.ii. Y. — Statement of C'linniinjham .f' ThoiiqiHoii. They nt II vesHflg. Years. % 4m j «M I o e 6 I d ^ >5 1 § "^ •fi-^ ^% :i eji o-S Si i3 gi g .3 3 n M 1 N'lni'tur II S .No rein ni 1, 100 SOD POO 695 t'OOD a; ^0^ IGlolcesteu, Oct. 10, 1876. CUNNIXGIIAM ii. THOMPSOX. Z. — Statement of George Dennh .J' Co. □ !13 0 S" £ 90 (S ^ . 4^ Ytars. u II -o| =■3 u. « :9 c a ■^S .^a o o pO '^, S^ S 1/ ]-f • , ifi 1, .a 1 2 1 1 1 a 1 2 93 368 270 85 111 ;i S ... 203 3 ( lOK j ■,,... . .•■•. ...... ( 1, 959 ■ 1 3 91 536 . 3874 AWARD OF TIIK FISHERY COMMISSION. Veiiri. 1W17 IMIH iHtllt iK-iO 1H71 lf<79 1H7:» 1H74 ie7.'i lb70 1S77 Tlio nliovo (Inen nut in<'ln)ln frpNii mnckoriil Hold, wIiIl-Ii would prolmlily amount to nt leant SriOO bhl*. taken on IIiIh H\\im\ liiit incluiloit «alt huUI iint uf pickle, which iiccountH fur tbo tliirorvncu lii'twirn tli,i| and oar InHpectiou retunm. KOWE .V JOUbAN. BB. — Statentent of Leonard iralen. Fits fl vcimi'Ih. Tears. Oct. 17, 1877. 1866 1867 1868 186!) 1870 1871 1878 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877- ■SH 1* II 41 1 9, 8ilfi 315 1H9 310 None .... 1, 100 940 1,300 None 480 None.... None 800 None — 170 ISO 880' ""i.'ooo" 860' 900 LEONARD WALEN. [Statemeut 01 MACKERE] [rear ending a a n (( « PTATE OF Nl Secreta 1 1 hereby cei \i Inspection Btors for tl In testimon ire and affixl AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. CCStatemtnt of William S. IVonton. 3376 )\ ii ^a e^ /, " ni 1 Mk xVi «« 114 'm Hll.'i >i i:.:! lUi I)',ll) •Ml !»!« MW r*) en 3, OH I5:i :i,>4 0 •VH* 5 1,031 ■ . AHfJ '.nn t)W«. lirtv vwli Ihit JOl {DAN. & 9, Sitfi ID WALKS. Tears. IM. IMU. U70. Kl. w. l'T4. iKi. iKii. Inn. I. h *. I ^5 !1 D7U 1441 l.Vi S47 IMKI ISfi 7«7 4m) I. Ml I, imi Ml 997 mt 4.'ilt a,87t* l,flOO- WM. S. WONSDX. V. |3tatetneut of Mackerel inspected at Portsmouth and Newcastle for the years 1809 to 1877, inclusive. V. MACKEREL INSPECTED AT PORTSMOUTH AND NEWCASTLE, N. H. lYear ending May 1, 1869 157 Uarrels. " " 3870 3,700 " '♦ " 1871 2,071 " " " 1872 '. 1,878 " " " 1873 2,398 " " " 1874 5,519 " " " 1875 3,415 " " « 1870 „ 5,351 '' « " 1877 043 " 9) 25,132 Average 2, 792 |Btate of New Hampshire, Secretary's Office, Concord, Sept. 4, 1877. I hereby certify that the above statement is taken from the Keports Inspection made to His Excellency the Governor by the several In- ctors for the years therein named. In testimony whereof, I have hereunto subscribed my official signa- ure and affixed the Seal of the State. A. B. THOMPSON, Secretary of State. 337G AWARD OF THE FI8HERY COMMIHSION. VI. 8TATK OF MAINH, i OfFICK of HKrUETARY OF HTATK. J I Iioroby certify, tlint tlio Collowiiijc in a correct Hiiinmnry of the Aiiimni UetiirnH of tliu Inspector Uuiierul of Kisli for the State of Maine, tor Dm. Hevenil yearH hereafter written, no far uh ruhituH to inaukerel inNpcctcil by him, vi/. : lum 4ri,407 burn-In. Wo r.l.r.M hirr.U 1W!7 :»:i,()i(i !/ of Stale. VII. Summary of Returns of Mackerel inspected in the State of MuHsacliu- setts for several years past. AWARD OF THE riSHERY COMMISfllOIf. :i377 •a I 9 ! I i wn tooiiii J9inn 'l||lllllllt.lW)| I Y |»I(.III)IIN<{ I mmumumi^ t mum 'IIM(I>|4.>II|AIM,| ■oatu.t, ■J''''IMI«M s a c V ■ I « *• ill 1"^ I 'tiiiii|i«ii|,) •qoiMJ«|| ■■|ua»a 'I(|I1UIUJ«A gs '^ e> I •' t^ I* if I 1/ " *^ ■omniHiMUji s •2. ■^ ■s> o I- V e s I «■ -'i-i-'x"»-' ■a!iSii H It 113 irf t^ ffil «f tf rt i_^* I •' ^ 1^* aj : ! -N V erf '«' '«' r-' V W :< tI •r* ■:( I -■ •• -J o" H rt — 1 - 1" f- ?i ««'•"■ 31 ""'^ urf •r ri 1.1' "f «■ ifl' t' i^" t-' •«■ n' cr •«* ■«■ 1- 1-' •«■ I-" *■ f" I •' ■')" ■r '2 5-. n M I. s! i-i i! 3-. 1,1 SI QtSx XaoxaDaDOOXQUJLOiuX'Xa&aD ri »)' ■«■ ri ri V •"' V ** ^ " ®* 2f S^ 2* Sj f^ M (■> '£ 1^ « us O f"' •' irf irf ^ v «■ jf a cT ri 1 1 "^i '6 V 'rf o* ov tfi n ri V r* i.-* to (-" -^' r* n rt tf ri" r* irj O) 'c 3". rt c ■- -• t."; o ft -r n s •r « ?." I"" I ■•' re 1 ' •-* o' a CI O W IJ ^ ti^ 51 ^ i- O t "^ *o r^ f -r r: X $ tD X X' X 5S CSS 212 F 3378 ▲WAUD OF TlIK FISHERY COMMlSlilON. H.~.Valrmtnl ihoH'lHg Iki MHmher of harrtU of rti'h ifmiUlp of mnrk^rtit, (hiimi Ih, ,„m^ ,,, I'Hilud SUtIrD rmtrh, ) 'uhmilltditiinuiilljf /or tH»j»«f7i\. Ymm. N».l iMrri'U. t Ki>.a iMriala. 44,1)00 109, l)>7 1.7, 07.-. 94, .ftKI 40, 94J 01, 199 1)1, M|0 4.\9I" 91. OH) i9,or.o 199, ".17 IIMI, 9HII 7", axM no, It; . -I 137, 747 11:1, .ftllU itti, ,110 40, -JH 1 49, 9)19 119,010 two, 49a Hft, H07 ft4, 371 OJ, HHO 71, 449 10, 970 00,773 Nil. 3 UriwU. 1 ?r»,4 ' liarriU, 1 iH.in iHftI IM.VI iMOa MM, 401 DO, l)ia ft. o-Jii 40, 010 :m, .V)' Ut), 9I iiKi, aKi I.VI, wu 1.V), auo 19-1,010 iia, OKI 79,1111 00, 04)1 10.ft, |h7 7I,m07 Ha, oh7 119,079 aa, iiNi 30, Him M1.IW4 l.». .ftOH 44,H|ft :iii, Min .vft, laa IN), imi 4:,i"-i ax, 9.".7 39, a;i:i 9-4, 91 17 .Vl, ,nO 99, 41O IIMI. on 109, tio-J aj, 9ia 30, 90)1 41, ix) 41, IHO 44,077 904 491 iHIlN •140 IHIIII , ,..,, 3 .V.I IH70 Xl IM7I 1H7U 1N73 1H74 1875 1870 40 110 377 ""i'.'m 4,HlH 1 1. II ' J , T..UI ' il"l»»«|lr 'll«)l lu ■•I"'! In| l>*rr«U 111 -J '^ 411 I l« I j. I I.I II<| I I,-, I A 'Jli'i nil i:j tiii II IM ■J1.CI :iiii, i| •J7) I V.-i^i -I 911 Ii >JII ,| Hi ii'i 'ill ■>' ■*■■:!. II 111 '<.V I-.-, ;ii a.-.- (. m. 'Ml V. — Slalement ithowing thi- niuubrr of hnnrh 0/ raih iiiialily of ntiu ktrit, (hiitiii of other Ihnti I'niled Statin ir/»/ir7«,) mibmittcduHiiiially for reiiinpviiion within the wealth of Mamtachuiietlti, from 1850 to 1H7U. Ihi' iiii.l < ummn* T(«i'«. narrpU Nu. 1. niiri'BU No, 9. 8, 356 6, 1119 7,0|H 3, !m giveu, II II 7,949 givxii. 0,490 5,950 7,3aa 11,790 10, 304 4, OS)! 11,063 3, 097 1), 0.59 17, .596 13, 047 17, IHO 14, Hia 1.5,911 10,-415 13, 934 llarrrlN No. 3. lUtrroU Nu.4. 40 ll«ml< tiiUl .i( f'irplKii r»li h ^ lll<*|N>ll<4 1H.V) 11, 143 5,799 9,490 ft, 173 Not II 11 II II 14,081 Not 6.U69 7,414 9, .508 13, 046 94, 979 14, fi.54 40, 007 14,397 9, 1197 0,900 ii,o.-.i 15, 7.57 19, «Xt 10, 887 14,444 11,957 9,061) 1,,553 a, 304 9, 097 lU, 083 3, 113 3, 393 5, .580 7, .537 7,797 4, 401 0, 719 3,199 0,713 7, 140 0, 009 15, 734 9, 509 10, .574 13, 119 11,835 31 K 1H51 1HS9 1H53 II M 18,54 9,700 S06 38 11 4 IS 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 M "1 1860 1861 1,'. < 1869 1< > 1863 S-it 1864 3'J3 1865 M.J 1866 3<,l 1867 IH 4 91 a.' 1868 300 1809 8.1 : 1M70 :i,l ■ 1871 ;iii; 1879 •M 1873 3:1 1874 I'll! 1875 74 3U4 il> 1870 j;,j Note.— Tho lu-inspectlon of foreign njackorol is cou&ucd mainly to Kustou. mil- :imilllllt of III »wbiili worn luuy fi'thx uii HhuruH ol ■''ilpatnouiitiifmi »»liith ikiiiouiit v/t AWARD OP TlfK FI8HKRY COMMmNtON 3.179 Ti>ui •l< limrpU KM I4«.->71 III Ifi ill ji; 1 '• ij. xtl 1 I.I ll'l IMI 1 k'l 1 -1 t'.H '.'ij 1 \v> 'ill i:t 'Ai Iti. : .. •Ifj Ill ' 1 ll'l 'I'l IIJ Ml :, •ll.% 1 '1 ;•! Mi:i •JMI < lii'l :iiii. .(. 14 •JliW 'J4« «:«'« 'JI.4 nil ■■' 4'il 'jii 1 li'JD Hi i\-4 , Wl tH 'I'l X' ;ii«,vji 41 •jMi, tr 11) Ixl 'I.V 3T i".'i :♦ 'i.> I- 1, '»' 1 VM\ i»- LHt 4 . W,!H TTI'U u. 4. lUrriU liiUl fiilrllin I 1 1'iktt'h ry\ illUptMt* 4» ' •2,706 31 ■! 80« r. • :iK !«• II '.•■; 1 4 yi ' ID M 1 Ul 1). IS.-)!. I i'lif t'iillowiiii{ Ntiitisticiil liirdirnntioii Im olitiiiiicil tliniuuli tlu^ rt«tiirnii laiatli' i'ur thnt |iur|Mm(^ hy tlio «l('|iiit,v itiN|>(>('toi' of ll.>
  • ctoi'- Lfiii'iul oI'IInIi lor tli<> (7oiiiiiioiiwnmcIn owikhI in iMuHMacluiMottM ami in otlxir HiatoM (>nt{a)(i-aiicli of indiiHtiy, •liicli liav(« |ia«!k(*(l tiii'ir tiNli in IIiIh Htatc; tlio ainoiitit of tonniiK«>, ami lihf iiiiinbi'i' of ni«>n and lioyH I'mpluyt'd on hoard thoNu vc^hvIh, vi/. : IH 4 91 74 3U4 I*' •Jill IV : ;i:i- »i; ^^ 3: Wli«r« owiiimI. X». at VMM'U. 7 K W 4 U lu 44 47 3 1 1141 4M 37 4 1 i 3 07 5 e «1 4)1 1 13 4 &U 7H 14 'I'onnaKK. 8M 7(11 I.VIH It.'Ut 74 l,:iiA 117 :i, INNI no 71 13, )i.l'J 3.!l.ll 9, 41W U7 45 30 491 l)W 4,343 \m Mil 4,:hl9 1,.VJ7 HO 71.% :hi.'> 3,•..>>■•••■•• ...>> M •T 3;w 47 14 I'lalbmii , •..■•••. s:io tbKMi t , Mrliiiiiiith • )mn\» Uttlwm Iiipf ••••••••.•..« •••... • ••• 6«ll 16 5H.% a:i 10 HilllCl-lltrr 9, :i9u .'.77 liivlch linKlmiii ItUII iini hKKlttr 41)1 3:1 llirlililii'inl B Mirtliii » Vlueyaril es !iuitllrknt. Nraliiiryport :io 707 54 Kviuuiith •••••.... •« ••• (1.% huvlnctttown • • • •■•••••«•••••• (Mil l>«k|iort MrlU yitiiikU' ...*• ••••••••.••• •••••••.•••••■•■••••••••••••••«•••• SKI It lll> bii»biiry .••••.••.■•..••••• ••••■•• •••• • 4H TrtiM W^llrtK.! Tifiiiou ih .•••■•■.•••••••••••■••••••••••••••••••••••■••••■•■••••■••'•••• SHI tun 109 833 M, 719 9,117 Uiine 47 tl 7 93 « 3, oig Sl.t 4TU l,!»l 141 440 84 fchiHit> IhIukI .••••■•• •••■•■••.■ •■•••••■■••■■••••■• 71 BSS lUrvUiitl , ...•.•■•••• 95 1)40 59,417 9, MM 1851. >!'' iimoiiiit nf innrkert'I iiiiinpcloil In MiiKHiirliiiRettn In If'SI lu ImitpIh 399, '}49 Kwliiih w«rB laiiulil at IJuy ChttlnurM or In lliillHli wnlerH 140, INIfl Infill uii HhoriM III till) Uuitud Statt's or in Aiiiciicttik wut*M'it IHri, JtIO .199,243 iSi^Mied) C'lI.XS. MAYO, IntiiteUir-Utncral of t'ith. 1852. 'lie aninunt III' iniifkt>i'itl lii«|Hirtei1 in >fa'«HHi'lMiHottft in Xi'fi 198 137 barrolf. Nliith ikimmnt wore cuiiKlit lu tUu Bay of St. Luwreuci' In .Vuierlcnn vos- WU 38,000 lii^'hl in Aiuericau waUrs 100, 197 198,197 (Si^TieU) CHARLKS .MAVO, Innpector-Oenetal tif Fuhm m% 8380 AWARD OP TIIK riNIIKKY (rOMMlMfllON. » finirmrni t»f \\t vt»»fl» »tti*»4 In .Viiiimi kHn(l$, rm/tlnifrit In Ik* WUtcktrrl lt»hrrg )n h,, ^,„. Whar* iiwii«i»rlmi>iilli DaiiDlD , R«ath»ni Kmmii Ulimcwutfr JImwIiIi llliigliaiii Ivrnii ..., MBni'hi>i«(«>r Marl>li<)i<>»rt fMnni Helliiain HitlUlMiry . .....a..., Triini. ■WHlflnat Yariiiunth v»«Mla. Tn«naK« • 4IhI )«.) < ■ YHI 1 W U. IIH n J ■iVl 1^ g n \i w U,IMV t, 1 'JM4 t! in 1^ «; 3, Ml '.!< 170 4 71 II tt.-MI 15. 1 10 Ml f I'll H M 1. mil «M «KI 1 4A Ml 4itn 14 3 1(1- 4 VT 3, Ml n 33a Ml « f HIS 13 BO U, DMI w Ml 4:ni ; :mi.-. 4 3, '.m U Mill 4 1, IM l> (RlKoeil) PATNK O. ATwnon, Jnipfcliir Ufynl • L f-t-M. ,1;:"., _ — ~. t m vk It W 1 '1 » «, III iM 4 ttftu 11 t 74 IK ■n ' «, iw , f. IN l.«4 » 1 in K 4« 3, (MM) M>< n no 4 1 71 1 w IX \*> 1 J m 4,:i:il M M I, IMM «l • »KI 1 4^ 1 31) • «ll>! * 3 m ' tn a. Ml 1 «' a :i:w 1 « Ml 1 M fHl.^l 1 BO U, |)K) 1 MO 7 4:w 4 Wk'i 4<« s, .m J M r>,uii 16 I.IM NK O. A'rwrM)U. Inipi'clur ilfyrnl No. I. Ill Ibv Cuurt ut Viev Adiiilrulty. |,iiiili;mfiitot IIIh Honor JikIko IIu/.oii in tlio caMi^ortlio *' White Fiiwn." Thr/nllniriiiff in a vofiif of (hf ileciHioH rrrentl if inonoii Ileal hy llin Honor Ijiiiliji' llazin in thin rum'. At tlio luHt Hittiiiu ot tills Court, Mr. Tiiclt, It. r., Proctor for tli«) llrowii, a|>|>lii'il, on licliuli of Sir .loliii A. Mchoiiiilil, the Attorney Ocii- |rr;tl of tlio Doininioii, for ii inoiiltioti, ciilliiii; upon tliu owium'm of tliu LliDont'r iind lirr (tur^o, to nIiow ckiiso why tlit* Whitr Fairn uiitl Iho lirlK'IcM iil>ovniiiiM'nit(*ii wiili her tarklu, <*t(!., hIioiiM not btMuiiiNld' Irretl IIS forfcitiMl t«> thi' (liowti lor ii violation of tli«' Iiii|M>ri>il Htiitiilu .V.), llMll^^<< III., (!ii|i. ;IH, iiinl tlu; honiinion .Statutes .W Vic , Cap. 01, and |>l Vic, Cup. I.'t. Tlu' \\ liifv Fairn, nn it nppt'ais from In-r papers, was a new vessel of ||>I tons, and reKistt'ied at (ilttiiceNtei. MasMaeliiisetts, in IH70, andowniMl liit'ipial shares hy Messrs. Somes, Kiiend, and Smith, of that place; Unit she was duly licensed for oiii; year, to he employed in the Coast- |!ii;; Trade and l-'isheries, nnd<«r the laws of the I'liittMl States; I'iiat hy her " Fishery Shippint; Paper," si;;iied liy the inasl(>r and ten loit'ii, tho usual aKi'(*«'inent was entered into for piirsuiiiK the Cod and luilii-r Fisheries, with inlniite provisions for the division of the protlto LiiiDii;; the owners, skipper, and crew. These papers and other docu> |iii)'iits found on hoard, am all in perfect order, and not the sli^ditest huh- lu'ioii can he thrown upon them. The Seatneirs Articles are dated P.Hh Niveiiiher, 1870: — On the L'lth Nov., IsTd, she arrived at Head Harbor, iiMiiull Hay in the eastern end of (Janipubello, in the county of Char- liiltt*, ill this Province. ('aptain Metts, a Fishery (H11c«'r, in commaml of tlio W'lttrr IJIi/, a vo«- M'i ill tliu service of the Domiiiioii, states that on thu lioth November ho Ivislyint; with his vessel f(f Head Harbor. Several other vessels, and liiiioii^ them the WItitr Fmrn, winv lyiiit; in the harbor; thai he went |()ii board the White Fairn: lie states a number of partiad Harbor by II lor the purpose of beiiii; used as bait for lishin^. Tliere are then 1*11111' remarks as to the master beiujj; de(!eived as to the fact of the cut- |i('i \h''\u>^ in the neighborhood, which are not material ; and, that do- miciit further understootl that |>er.soiis had been employed at Head [ilaibour to catch the herring for him ; that he sei/.ed the st^hooner on the til, [sic], and arrived with her the same evening at St. John, and de- it rod lier on the next day to the Collector of the Customs. Ni> reason is given for the delay v.hich ha.s taken place of more than 1 'Ml') 3382 AWARD OF TIIK FiaHKUY COMMISSION; two montliM in procoodinjj afjainst tlio vessel, wliicli was sci/cd. .xA alk'fft'cl b.v ('aptaiii H«'tts, for a violation ot the tt'iiiis of tin* Coim iukmiI and the liaws of Canachi; her voyaye was broiieti up, and lin ciew dispersed at the time of the seizure. By tile Imperial Statute, .V.) (leor^je III., eap. 3S, it is declared that ifl any foreijjn vessel, or person oti board thereof, "shall be found to l)t>| llshiufif, ()r to hav(>, been hsliiu};, or prepaiinir to llsh witliin siicli ^\\■^. tance (three marine miles) of tlie coast, such vessel and cai';,'o shall biJ forfeiteil." The Dominion Statute, M Vie., Cap. (11 , as amended l»y ."»;? Vic, (';in,| 15, enacts: " If such foreifjii vessel is found lishiny, or prcpiirinjj; lutisli.l or to hav(^ be(>n lishinu' in Hiitisli waters, within threi^ marine iiiiicsdfl the coast, smdi v('ssel, her tackle, etc;., and crarj^o, shall be forfeitt'd." The W'liitt; Fdirn was a forei^ni vessel in Hritish waters; in fart,! within one of the Counties of this Provin Q •> (1 l»y .{;'• Vic. « ;i| ; pri'iiariiif; in li^ii.l CO iiiariiu' iiiilcv nt'l til l)o t'ortcitfil." Ii waters; in tact,! ' j^vas seized. It isl in'i' eiiteieil \\\a'\\ rr wood and watt'r.l but a penalty r,\n\ ihe coinniitted aiiyj lot statiMl tliat slid 1 tbuiid lishiuK, IniB .)ait (an articlo w. I lishinK) t"i'»'>» tlie ;t of such pureliasa^ es (which I do iidt^ I, it must be sliowiJ in British waters j e Master may have e-mih? limit, in conj irt to impute iVaiiif utes to any pcisuiiJ h fraud. He hail f I his vessel througli Is outside, which li^ here is no evideue^ lids. Lutes by the Crowd el, being in British article which ui;i]j ig shown that snci ters, is liable to fori irsh and unreasniiJ It would sabjecl in the present case| sing (while she wa y might do, witbii tide, however small being shown tbaj al fishing in Britisf oh she might legall| vessel is found— Isj ive been taken ; 3rl her nets, lines, m plied to fishing,! British waters, in either of those chhcs specUled in the statutes the for- Ifitiire attaches. I think the words '* pn'paring to fish " were iiitnxlucetl lor the |Mir- pose of preventing tlu^ escape of a foreign ve.s.sel \vlil(;h, thougii with intent of illegal fishing in British waters, had not taken (ish or engaged ill lisliing by s«>ttiiig nets and lines, but was seized in the very act of putting out her lines, nets, et(^, into thc^ water, and so preparing to tisli. Without these a vessel so situated would escape; seizure, inasmuch ,is the crew iiad neither caught lish nor been found lishing. TaUing tliis view of the Statutes, 1 am of the opinion that the facts ilisclosed by tiie allidavits do not furnish legal grounds for the seizure lithe American schooner ]Vhite Fairn, by Captain Betts, the com- iiiaiider of the Dominion vessel Wafir Lily, and do not make out ni>riin(i /)((•/> case for condemnation in this (^ourt, of liio schooner, her tackle, \(',, and cargo. I may add that as the construction T have put upon the Statute dilTers fioin that adopted by the Crown Otllcers of the Dominion, it is satis- taofory to know that the judgment of the Supreme (Jourt may bo obtainert/Mc7»;." — Case No, 2.54. — Sir William Young, Jinlge. — Glh Dec, 1870. This is an American fishing ve.s.sel of 40 tons burthen, owned at Ply- I mouth, in the State of INI'-'s.sachu.setts, and sailing under a fishing license, I issued by the Collector there on the 2r)th of April last. On the 27th of June she was seized by Capt. Tory, of the Dominion cutter Ida U., I lor a violatior of the Dominion Fishery Acts of 18*18 ami 1870, and her |uationality and character appear from her enrolment and other papers delivered up by her master, and on file in this Court. A monition hav- ling issued in the usual form on the 27th of July, a libel was filed on the lOtli of August, and a claim having been put in by the owners with a [bond for costs, as required by the Act, they filed their responsive alle- jation on the 18th of August. The fish and salt on board at the time lot' seizure being perishable, were sold under an order of the Court, and the proceeds, with the vessel herself, remain subject to its decree. The evidence was completed early in September, but the case, being tii? first of the several fishing cases, that has been tried, was not brought before the Court for a hearing till the 2Gth uU., when it was fully argued, and stands now for judgment. Although it presents few or none of the nicer and more perplexing questions that will arise in theother cases, now also ripe for a hearing, it will be regarded with the deepest interest bj' the community and the profession, and on that account demands a more jcautious and thorough examination than it might require simply on its I own merits. "An attempt was made at the argument to import into it wider and I more comprehensive inquiries than properly belong to it. I am here to fllM .ttij) 3384 AWiUtD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. administer the law as I And it, not to determine its expediency or iu justice, still less to inquire into the wisdom of a Treaty deliborutuly made by the two Governments of Great Britain and the United Stutes, and acknowledged by both. If the people of the United States, inad vertently, as it is alleged, or unwisely (which I by no means iulmii) renounced their inherent rights, and ought to fall back on the Treaty ol 1783, rather than abide by the existing Treaty of 1818, that is a matter for negotiation between the two contracting powers — it belongs to the higher region of international and political action, and not to the liuin bier, but still the highly responsible and honorable duty now imposed on me, of interpreting and enforcing the law as it is. "By the first Article of the Treaty of 1818, after certain privileges or rights within certain limits conceded to American fishermen, it is declared, that " the United States hereby renounce forever any liberty heretofore enjoyed or claimed by the inhabitants thereof, to take, dry, or cure fish, on or w ithin three marine miles of any of the coasts, bays, creeks, or harbors of Uis Britannic Majesty's dominions in America, not included within the above mentioned limits. Provided, however, that the American flshernien shall be admitted to enter such bays or harbors for the purpose of shelter, and of repairing damage therein, of purclias ing wood, and of obtaining water, and for no other purpose whatever. But they shall be under such restrictions as may be necessary to prevent their taking, drying, or curing fish therein, or in any other manner wLat ever abusing the privileges hereby reserved to them. "Every word of this Article should be studied and understood by the people of these Provinces. They perfectly aj)preciate the value of their exclusive right to the inshore fishery, thus formally and clearly recognized, and they must take care temperately but firmly to preserve and guard it. It was argued in this case, that the restriction applied only to fishing vessels; tliat is, vessels fitted out for the purposes ot fishing — that it did not extend to other vessels which might find it con- venient or profitable to fish within the limits. But that is not the Ian guage of the Treaty nor of the Acts founded on it. The United States renounce the liberty enjoyed or claimed by the iuh.abitants, not merely by the flshermea thereof, and any vessel, fishing or otherwise, witliiii the limits prescribed by the Treaty, is liable to forfeiture. " Extreme cases were put to me at the hearing, and I have seen them frequently stated elsewhere, of a trading vessel or an American citizen catching a few fish for food or for pleasure, and the Court was asked whether in such and the like cases it would impose forfeituras or pen- alties. When such cases arise there will be no difficulty, I think, in dealing with them. Neither the Government nor the Courts of the Dominion would favor a narrow and illiberal construction, or sanction a forfeiture or penalty inconsistent with national comity and usage, and with the plain object and intent of the Treaty. The rights of a people, as of an individual, are never so much respected as when they are exer- cised in a spirit of fairness and moderation. Besides, by a clause of tbe Dominion Act of 18G8, which is not to be found in the Imperial Act of 1819, nor in our Mova Scotia Act of 1836, which formed the code of rules and regulations under the Treaty of 1818, with the sanction of llis Majesty, the Governor-General in Council, in cases of seizure under the Act, may, by order, direct a stay of proceedings ; and, in cases of condemnation, may relieve from tlie penalty, in whole or in part, and on such terms as may be deemed right. Any undue straining of tbe laW; or harshness in its api)lication may thus be softened or redressed, and although I was told that little confidence was to be placed in tbe AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. xpodieiicy or its L'iity (leliboratttly 0 United States, ted States, iiiad- 10 means admiij on the Treaty ot , that is a matter it belont;s to tho 1 not to the hum nty now imi>08ed certain privilcKos I fishermen, it is rever any liberty reof, to talie, dry, ■ the coasts, bays, )8 in America, not ed, however, tliat ;h bays or harbors lerein, of purdias- )nrpose whatever, cessary to prevent tlier manner what nd nnderstood by iciate the value of rmally and clearly lirmly to preserve restriction applied ir the purposes ot might lind it con- liat is not the Ian The United States >itants, not merely otherwise, within ture. I have seen them American citizen , Court was asked forfeituras or pen culty, I think, in [the Courts of the ;tion, or sanction a ty and usage, and [rights of a people, hen they are ever by a clause of tlie ,e Imperial Act ot rmed the code ot ,h the sanction of IS of seizure under ; and, in cases of le or in part, anil e straining of the lened or redressed be placed in tbe 3385 moderation of Governments, it is obvious that ronfldencc is placed io it by the authorities and by the people of the United States ; and it is a fact honorable to both parties, that the naval forces employed on the tisliing grounds in the past seasons, have acted in perfect harmony, aud carried out the i)rovision8 of the Treaty in good faith. The organs of public opinion, indeed, in the United States, of the highest stamp, have denounced o{>en and deliberate violation of the Treaty in terms as de- cided as we ourselves could use. '• These considerations have prepared us for a review of the pleadings and of the evidence taken in this case. The libel contains six articles. The first sets out in the briefest iK)ssible terms, the first article already cited of the Treaty of 20th Oct., 181S. The second gives the title of the Imperial Act .■)0 (leo. 3, chaj). 38. The third that of the British North American Act 1807, the 30th anil 31st Vic. chap. The fourth, those of the Dominion Acts of 1808 and 1870, the 3l8t Vic, chap. (»l and the 33 \\v. chap. 15. The fifth alleges that on the 27th of June last, the Wiimpatucl-, her master and crew, within the limits reserved in the Treaty, were discovered fishing at Aspy IJay in British waters, within three marine miles of the coast, without license for that purpose, and that the vessel and cargo were thereupon seized by Capt. Tory, being a fishery officer in command of the Liu K., a vessel in the service of the liovernment of Canada, for a breach of the provisions of the Conven- tioM, or of the Statutes in that behalf, and delivered into the custody of the principal ofTicer of Custoujs at Sydney, Cape Breton. The conclud- injj article prays for u condemnation of the vessel and cargo, as forfeited to the Crown. " The resjjonsive allegation admits the Convention, and the several Statutes as pleaded, raising no question thereon. It admits that the Wampatiiclc, being an American vessel, left the port of Plymouth on a Ishing voyfige to the Grand Bank, beyond the limits of any rights re- served by the Convention of 1818, and alleges that she was not intended to lish on the coasts or in the bays of British North America; that on the 27th day of June, while pursuing her said voyage, becoming short of water, she ran into Aspy Bay for the puri)ose of procuring a supply thereof, aud for no other purpose whatsoever; that the master, with two of the crew, rowed ashore to get a supply of water as aforesaid, and directed the crew on board to work the vessel inshore to a con- venient distance for watering, and that the master and crew were not discovered fishing within three marine miles of the coast as alleged. The sixth article, repeating the same allegations, proceeds to state fur- ther— that ' as the owners are informed, while the said master was on shore as aforesaid, the steward of the said vessel, and being one of the crew of the same, while the said vessel was lying becalmed in the said bay, did with a fishing-line, being part of the tackle of the said vessel, latch seven codfish for the purpose of cooking them, then and there, for tlie food of the crew of the said vessel, and not for the purpose of curing or preserving them, as part of the cargo of the said vessel ; that the said fish were so caught without the knowledge^ against the will, and in the absence of the master of the said vessel and part of lier crew,' and for this oftense only the vessel and cargo had been seized. " I observe that this last allegation was repeated in an aflidavit of one of the owners on file, and, as we must infer, was consistent with his belief at the time, and probably led to the claim being put in under the Hth and 12th sections of the Act of 1808. Had the evidence sustained , the case would have assumed a very ditt'erent complexion ; but, as ii'" ;;: "'It if ■> -"ill!': if ' >' .'I "v ■]M: IF -ll'tt III 3386 AWARD OF THE FIHMKRY COMMISSION. WO shall presently see, it \h uttt-rly iit viuianco with the nets and tin- ailniiHHiotiN of the piirticH on Itoiinl. '♦ It is a n'iiiark!il)le ciicumHtiiiuie that iH'ithor the miiHtor nor ( kw oi' the vessel have Imhmi exiitniueil, nor any evideime iithliiced on tlic ilf tense, althoii}^li a ( 'otniniNsion was ^ninted on the Ttii Se])tenihri tor that purpose. At tiie hearin*i J!. Itollin, one ot tiie crew, taken on tlie -'7th «Septeinl»er, in tiie State of Maine; the other, a deposition ol' Daniel (itxxlwin, tiie master, made on the 2nd of July — neither of wiiiidi I ('(udd retudve Ity the rules tlnit jjovern this Court, and lu'ither ol' wliicli 1 have read. The latter, in. iieed, had nevt'r been liled, nor ha. ecntion, consistinj^ of the dei)()sitions of Captain Tory. Martin Snilivan, his second mate, and live others of the vivw of the Ida E. From these it appears that the latter entered Aspy Uay about 10 o'clock on tlic inorninK of June 27th, and was enjjjaged all da.y in boarding the vessels lying there ; and what seems very strange, but is plaiidy shown, tliar her presence and character were known to the master and crew of tin- Wnmjmtnck, and as one would have thought, would have nnule tliem cautious iu their procee«lings. She h.id entered the Bay on the same morning, and remained hovering about the shore all that day, about t or 5 miles from the Ida E. Gibson, one of the crew, states that Captain Tory and four of his crew, including the witness, left the Ida £., be tweeu 6 and 7 o'clock in the evening to go to the ^Vaml^atu<■k, whicli latter vessel was then about l.\ miles or a little more from the shore, i Wheu they reached her they saw several cod-lish about lo or 20, on deck, very lately caught — some of which were alive. Jumping on tliel deck. They also saw some codfish lines on deck, not wouud up, api)ar- ently just taken out of the water. Captain Torj' states that several oil the crew were engaged in fishing codfish — that they saw several codfish [ unsplit, very recently caught, on her deck, some of which were alive, In his cross-examination he says that he saw thrfe or four men with] lines overboard, apparently in the act of fishing, and that there were more than 8 or 10 newly caught fish on the deck, — he judged from lo to| 20. Graham states that they saw several codfisli very recently canglit, on the deck, some of which were alive, — saw also several codfi.sh lines oiil deck, and one of the crew of the Wampatuck haul a line in — there werel 5 or i> men on board of her at the time. These statements are generalhj confirmed by the other four witnesses, and being uncontradicted, leave no doubt of the fact of a fishing within the reserved limits, for the pui| pose of curing srnd not of procuring food only, as was averred. " The admissions of Captain Goodwin are equally emphatic. He caniol on board immediately after the seizure, and Sullivan heard him say tliatj be could not blame Captain Tory, — his crew was so crazy to catcli tisl that they would not stop. Graham heard Captain Goodwin say thatliel knew he had broken the rules and was inside of the limits, and that the! vessel was a lawful prize, that Captain Tory had done no more than liiJ duty, that he could not blame him. This witness, in his crossexamiiiaf tion, says that about an hour after Captain Goodwin came on board bel heard him say that he told the crew not to catch flsh inside while he wasT away, but it was no use to talk, that fishermen would catch flsh wberJ ever they would get them to bite. The same witness says that he askej the crew, as they knew it was the cutter's boat coming, why theydif not throw the fish overboard, and one of them said they might biW AWAUI) OF THE FISHHRY COMMISSION. :'.3.s7 tlic acts and tin- ■ isti'r Mor tn'w ot' ■ liiccil on tlir df' ■ li S(>)ttt>iiil)t'i lor H iM'Ct tcntli'itMl by ■ )ii of l''(»i rest K. H I', in tlw Htatt' ot' I lie iiiiisttT, niaili' ■ hy tlic. rules lliiit I 1." Tin* latter, in- I jt'cn sub.ji'ctcil to I [(Mice for i'^- I . Martin Sullivan, I to ■y recently cauglit, nal codlish lines on ine in— there were uents are generally icontradicted, leave limits, for the pin- s averred, niphatic. He came heard him say tliat| crazy to catch M\ oodwin say that lie limits, and that the le no more than liis his cross-examina- came on board he inside while he was lid catch fish wber J says that he askei »ming, why they d" id they might biiv (louo so, but it «li(l not come in their mind.s. ('aptain Tory testifies that Captain (toodwin repeatedly ad(nitt(>d to him that he was aware that their fishing in shore was a violatifMi of the law, and pleaded that lu* would not be .sevens on iiiin. In his cross-exainiuatioii, ('a|)taiii Tory «iiiys tliat at tlu^ tinu> of siu'li admissions he does iu)t ret'ollect ('aj>tain (ioodwin saying that the fishing was dotie without his Knowledge or ;iy;ainst his oiders. Captain 'I'ory does not think that he siiid so, as wit- ness believes tln^ Captain Mas aware the WdiiiiHifiicI,- went out from the harbor to lisli, and that he saw her within the limits, (libson also tes- tifies that on tlieii' way across the IJay hei heard Cajitaiu (ioodwin tell ('ai»tain Tory that he couUl not blanu^ him — it was not his fault — that he idanu'd himself, and that he kiu'w he had violated the law. "This mass of testimony having been open to the inspection of tht> 'lefendants and their counsel sin(M' th(> beginning of September, it is very significant that they prodiu-ed no witness in reply, and that it stood at the hearing, wholly niu;ontradi(!ted. As neither want of ability, nor of zeal, can be imjjuted to the counsel, the necessary inference is, that the tacts testified to are substantially triK\ '*Two or three arguments were urged at the hearing, which it is in- oiunbent on me to notice. " Jt was said that tliere could be no forfeiture, unless an intent to^io• late the law were clearly shown on the part of the pro.secution. The answer is, that the intent was shown by tlie admissions in proof, and that, indepeiulently of the admissions, where acts are illegal, the intent is to be gathered from the acts themselves. " It was next said that the captain of the Ida h\ ought to have noti- fied the master of the Mampatuvk, but it was admitted in the .same breath that notice was not required in the Statute, the Act of 1S70 being somewhat more stringent in that respect than the Act of 1808, while the private instructions to the captain of the cutter were not in proof. "The main objection, however, was, that the fishing having been done in the absence and without the authority of Capt. (Ioodwin, the vessel was not liable to forfeiture. Now, it is to be noted that there is no evidence, nothing under oath, of the master having prohibited, or been ignorant of. the fishing. I have stated his disclaimer as accompanying, or qualifying, his admissions; but if the prohibition or want of authority would consti- tute a defence, it should have been proved. It is to beobserved, too, that inuler the shipping paper, showing a crew of nine persons in all, seven be- sides the skipper and Salter, the men were not shipped by wages, nor by the thousand offish caught, but were sharesmen having an interest in the voyage, and whose acts as fi.shernu^u, necessarily compromised the ves- sel. They were inhabitants of the United States, fishing in violation of the Treaty, and the Act of 1870 declares that if any foreign ship or ves- sel have been found fishing, or i)reparing to fish, or to have been fishing (ill British waters) within the prescribed limits, such ship, vessel or boat, aiul the tackle, rigging, apparel, furniture, stores and cargo there- of, shall be forfeited. But supposing the doctrine as between master and servant, or as between princii)al and agent, to apidy, for which no authority was cited, it would not avail the defendants. The last point, as to agency, was examined thoroughly in the Supreme Court of this Province, in the case of Pope vs. the Pictou Steamboat Company, in 18G5, and was decided against the principal. And as to the analogy of master and servant — the responsibility of the master for the act of the servant, where, as iu this case, the servant was acting within the scope of his employment, I would content myself with citing the decision of the Exchequer (3hamber in the case of Lirapus vs. the General Omnibus 3388 AWARD OF TIIH FI8IIEHY COMMISSION.* i ' *■ «■ \iX .i^^-f Coinpnny, 7 Law Term, ItcporU, N. S.,041, whore the rule ih hiid down by Bluckburn, J., in theHe words : — ' It l» aj^reod by ull thut a iniiNtci j^ reHpoiiHiblo for the improper act of hi8 Horvant, even if it be wilful, ru(;k- les8 or improper, provided the act iH the act of the Horvaut in the h(;()[h* of bis em|)h)ymeiit, aud in oxecutiug the matter for which he wuh oiifrajifed at the time.' "These objections, therefore, liaviiif; fniUMl, and the flshin(;by th«' crew \«'itliin the reserved limits having been iibni|dantly proved, this (!ourt condemns the Wampatuck, her tackle, apparel, furniture, stores uiul car^o as forfeited under the Dominion Acts, the vessel to be sold at ]Uiblic auction, and the proceeds to be distributed, aloii^; with the pro ceeds of the cargo, as directed by the Act of 1808." No. .{. [Kxtriiet from tliu llulitiix Duily Ueporlci ami TiiiioH, IVb. 11, I'Tl. J In the Vice Admiralty Court, lOih Feb'y, 1871. The *'yl. JI. U'«ws««," Finhing Vessel. — Sir William Yoiiuy, 'huUje Vii, AdinifuUj/. "This is a schooner of 03 tons burthen, belonging to Gloucester, in the State of Massachusetts, sailing under an enrolment of 4th Jutic, 18(J8, and a fishing license of 27th .June last. On the 3rd Sept., she was seized by Capt. Carmichael, of the iSiceepstaJxes, one of the Domiiiion cutters, for lishing within three marine miles of the coast of Cape Breton, at IJroad Cove, and was libelled therefor in the usual form on the 17tL. On the 19th her owners put in their responsive allegation, and at tin same time her master and four of her crew were examined thereou, For the prosecution there were examined by the 30th Sept., the Captain. the first officer, three of the other otlicers, and ten of the crew of the Sweepstakes ; and on the 21st and 22nd Cctober there were examineii under commission at Canso, the master and two of the seamen of the Dusky Lake, a fishing schooner belonging to Margaree. All the wit nesses on both sides in these 23 dei)ositions were subjected to cross examination, and the evidence, as was perhaps to be expected, is con^ flicting. The case, as it will be perceived, was ready for trial by the end of October; but the intervening terms of the Supreme Court, and the incessant engagements both ot Judge and Counsel rendered it im- possible to bring it on for a hearing until the 4th inst. The legal priiici pies applicable to the case having been fully discussed in that of the Wampafiick, the argument was confined to the ett'ect of the evidence; aud the decision will turn solely on (piestions of fact. " On the 2d of September, the cutter, a sailing vessel, and scarcely distinguishable from the usual class of fishing craft, arrived at IJroad Cove about ten o'clock at night, and next morning a little before J o'clock, according to Captain Carmichael, who is confirmed in all essen- tial particulars by his oflicers and crew, he discovered a number ot vessels, some say as many as 70, fishing close to them, and hove to under their mainsails. Some of these were American, and Evans, the boatswain, says he saw the captain of the American vessel nearest to them stand on the house and wave his hat to the other vessels near at hand, and they immediately hoisted their jibs and made off from shore. AWARD OF TlIK FIHHEKY COMMISSION. 3:589 ilON.- li(^ rule iH laiti Uowu ull tliut a nuiHtcr i>, if it be wiirui,ii)«',k. orvuut in tho s(!()im« for which he \vu« 0 flshiug by th«' cunv ■ proved, this ('ouit iMiiture, stores ami vt'HHel to be sold at aU)ii{? with the pro H, ivii. 11, i-ri-l b'y, 1S71. m Yotnuj, 'UuUjc I iV. King to Cih»ucostcr, in rolnient of 4tli Jan.', the ihd Sept., she was one of the Doniiiiioii 1 coast of Cape Breton, iual form on the ITtli. allegation, and at tlu o examined thereou, th Sept., the Captain. Lin of the crew of the there were examined if the seamen of the ^„.«ee. All the wit ■e subjected to cross be expected, is con- ■eady for trial by the Supreme Court, and unsel rendered it ini ist. The legal priiici ^ussed in that of the [ftect of the evidence ; jict. vessel, and scarcoly .ft, arrived at 15 road ing a little before - ^ontirmed in all essen- [covered a number of ;o them, and hove to :ican, and Evans, the lan vessel nearest to ,ther vessels near at made off from shore. None of these wore caught; but (-aptain Carmichael iliscovered the ,1. H. Wnmnn about a third of a mile distant. Hlie wa.s liove to under her maiuHail, with her rail manned, and (Ishiiig on the starboanl Hide, iircording to the established usage. The morning wa.s clear, and ho could 8ee the men on her deck distinctly, casting their lines and throw- ing bait; he also looked at her through his spyglass, and described certain marks on her to his men, that they might easily distinguish and board her. Jle then steer<'n was then inside of two miles from Capo Breton shore, and drifting in, in a Northwest- erly course. "From the direction in which the Cutter came, veiling her approach, and with the Nova Scotia vessels intervening, none of the i)erson8 on board saw the fish actually taken and hauled up, and the further evi- dence of the three men on board the J>mhj Lake becomes very material. Thos. E Nickerson says there were about 100 yards from the A. H. IVrtHsoM, lying between her and the shore. lie did not see any fish taken or caught by her, he could not see the men hauling any lines or throwing bait from the way the sails hid them, but in answer to the 11th question, he says that he .saw the Cutter approaching — she approached the A. U. Wamon from the south-west, and the witness observed her men standing at the rail, and saw them take their strike-barrels to leeward, and throw round mackerel overboard, and when the Siccep- stakes was rounding to, they hauled in their main sheet, and .after the ^iceepstakes tired a gun, they hoisted their colors to the main peak. The next witness, Joseph H. Grant, says the A. 11. Wanson was lying to nnder mainsail and foresail ; they appeared to be fishing ; he did not see them catch any ; as the /Sweepstakes approached, he observed them i^U'l'v"! J390 AWAKI> OF THE FIHHEHV COMMISSION. take their Htriko barrelH to loownnl, niiut miw thu tolo of bait in i|,J wutor, iiH iM iiHtiul when bait iH throwing;, in ordor to raiHO inackciol. '*lly thu ninth ci'ohk inlvrro^atory hu wuh askud ' would not any voh sol driftiu); alonfj; u^e tiiu Hutnu Haih and appear in tho Hamu posiiion as tlu4 yl. //. Wamionf Ih there anything particular in thu unc! ol tiuii Nails by vcnnoIh oniployud in inackenil tlsliin^ more than in any othfi vchmoIm f To which his auHwer in : ' I cannot nay — nover huw any vt>H. Kcl in that position uuIcnh mIic was tl.shin^. Tticru ih (piito a ilincrt'iicc; lie had previou.sly naid tluit he had been two years en t;aged in the liook and lino nia(!kerel lishinK in the (iulf of Kt. Lawrence, aiiil was familiar with the way in whi(;h thu tish are caught. ♦'The remaining witness, Thomas Itoberts, who was described at tlif hearinjf as the master, says the A. II, WnnHon was lying iiortli west, and about l'(H) yards from the Dnnkij lMkt\ they (that is thu men of ilu> .1. H. W'miHon) catching mackerel, lying head to the southward, iiinlci her mainsail. They wert^ llshing, and the witness saw them catch lisli— mackerel. Shu was inside of three miles. lie further says: — ' I oli. serveo liretoii.' When the ISiceepHtakcH ran down upon them from the southwest tlicy gave up fishing, and carried their strike-barrels to leeward, and threw the tish overboard." lu answer to the eleventh and thirteenth croNH interrogatories, he says : ' 1 saw them heaving bait, casting lines, catch- ing mackerel, and dumping them overboard, and coiling up their liiias. They were slatting tish ott' of their lines after hauling them in.' '♦ Let us consider the ett'ect of this mass of evidence, which I have gone into with a particularity very unusual with me, and only to be justi tied by the nature of the charge, and the necessity of vindicating every judgment that is pronounced. Ilure is a fleet of vessels. Nova Scotian and American, on a tine clear morning, busily engaged in fishing, the mackerel rising all around, and uo hostile cutter supposed to be near, i The Americans think little of the prohibitiou which the new and more vigorous policy of the Dominion has imposed. They are impatient of the exclusive right claimed by the Canadian people on the principles of international law, and the faith of treaties; and violate it without scruples whenever the opportunity occurs. Ueuce the eagerness, aud the openness too, with which these American fishermen are plying tbeii task on this particular morning. What should we say, if we were toldj that one vessel only was virtuous or strong enough to resist the tempta tions, aud to hold their hands from touching their neighbour's goods!! Jhe captain of the Wampatuck, when caught in the act, excused him [ self, on the ground, that his crew were so crazy to catch fish, that tlieyj would not stop. But, here on the decks of the A. II. Wanson was al model crew, who would not catch mackerel within the three miles,! though swarming around them. That is the sole defence in this easel They admit that they were within three miles of the shore — that tbevj were lying guyed off under mainsail, and with their anchor up, headiujl south-south east towards the shore in the very position for fishing-l they were not aware of the arrival of the cutter — aud yet they wouhlj have this Court believe that they were not fishing. It would be a greatj stretch of credulity to believe this in the absence of evidence to the qoDJ A\VARI> OF THE FlHliEUY C0MMIM810N. 3391 trury. Hut with th« iimsM of* toHtimoHy Just lotiitod — thn 8 «»r 10 men ii|)oii tho rail — tho (tiistiiiK <^»*1 liiuiliii){ in of tliu uiuukorcl liiiVN— tliu throwiiii; of bait — tho (MiiptyiiiK of tliu ntrilco burr(>1.s on tlio ii|i|>roitch oi' tliu cutter, utid tlin cJcunind positive evidence of tiiree disintereHted witticHHeH from tlie l>nnk}i Lnkv. — wliiit is to siiid of such a dofenire f In iho face of it ail, the master and four of the (Tew of the .1. 11. Wamon — live out of tlie 1(1 or 17 men, said to be on board, have sworn that miid scliooner,or the captain or crew thereof, did not tlsh,or pn^pare to llsh, witliin three marinemiles of thecoaHts, bays, harbors, or rreel\sof(yanada, 1)1 of that part of the (toasts and bays thereof known as ltroail(;ove and as SiMiwolf Island on the northwest coast of Cape Itreton, on the .'Ird day (ii September last, «>r at any otiier time during said season. This mi);ht 1)0 supposed to be a mere tVu'mal denial, repeated, however wrongfully iiiid iuiuiutionsly, by all live, in the very words of the responsive al- Ic^ration, but in the body of their evidentie they assert that noius of the men were tlshiii);, or had been tlshiu); that morning;, or at any time after ;'()iM^ into liroadcove, or wer«> preparing to llsh. liy what stranj^e cas- uistry these men reconcile such an assertion to their coii:H(ticn(!es, and M'lise of ri^iit, it is dilllcult to tell. The human mind practi(;es singular (iitliisions upon itself, and the spectatde of conflicting evidence is only too common in courts of justice. It is enough, in the present case, to say that the evidence for the prosecution is overwhelming; and irre- sistible. The alleviation that the men were only clearin<; out their tan- ;,'l('d lines, besides being inconsistent with the usage and habits of ex- pert tishermen, is wholly insutllciotit to account for the actions of these men while on the rail, us seen and testified to by so many of the wit- nesses. " I pronounce therefore, for the condemnation of the A. II. Wanson, her tackle, apparel, furniture, stores, and cargo, as forfeited under the .Dominion Acts, and the same having been bailed at the appraised value of i!i3,500, 1 direct that the amount shall be paid into court, to be dis- tributed as directed by the Act of 18li8. I pronounce also for the costs secured by the first bund, on the defence being put in." No. 4. [Kxtract from the IliiliCux Daily Reporter and TiuioH, February llUli, 1871.] IN THE VICE ADMIRALTY COURT, lOTH FEB'Y, 1871. The " A. J. Franklin.'" — Sir }YHUam Young, Judge Vice AihniraUy. "This is a schooner of r»3 tons burthen, owned at Gloucester, in the [State of Massachusetts, under an enrolment of 4th February, 18G8, and sailing under a fishing license of 28th January, 1870. Attached to her papers are also printed copies of the Treasury Circulars issued at Wash- iugton on 16th May and Uth dune last, apprising the owners and mas- ters of fishing vessels of the first article of the Treaty of 1818, of the Dominion acts of 1868 and 1870, and of the equipment of Canadian sail- iug vessels for the enforcement thereof. This vessel — the A. J. Frank- jli»t— having been warned by Captain Tory, of the cutter Ida E., against Itishing within the prescribed limits, and having been found on the 11th [October in the midst of a mackerel fleet at Broad Cove, was overhauled laud visited by the cutter, and was then let go ; but, on further iuforma- ^y i i<'i iii( •t^ 4 ! 8392 AWAKI> OP TIIK KIHIIKRY COMMINHION. tion tlitit n)io had lH>on ilHhiiif; on tliiit day, hIia wun Noi/.tHi on tli<> l.'.Hi October, in tlu^ Strait of CiinMo, ami lil>«>ll(Ml in tlionHnal form on tln'.'iitl November, antl a ri'HponNivn all(>(;ation put in. Tli<< v(>mm«>I ami taruo W(>ro at'torward liberated on bail at tlit^ apiiraiNcd valnit of i!ili,.'HM), and dopoHitionH wore tak«n both HidcM, and croHM intcrro^atorit'H lll«>d. Smum- irrogularilii'H appear on the faco of them, which wcro waived by consfnt aH (Midori'od, and the (MiHo canio beforo mo on the (Itli inHtant, on tlw pleadin^H, and eighteen depositionN, thone of the inaHter, Neeoiid tnalt>, and Hix of the crew of the Ida AA, and of hIx of the (;re\v of two riiiiit>ii barf; veHHelM, pro llrHt mate of the love, en^aKcd in llsliiut;, and huvinj; rtin outHide nntil he got about midway, he (Ired a iihink Hhot, for the pnr]toHO of aHcertaining, by their returning the Nignal, uintt veHHeiN were llritish and what not. The yt. •/. Franklin then came out A'om tho centre of the fleet, and immediately aet all Hail and ran diiect fVum tho land, an if trying to avoid detection. To prevent her cscniin tho captain ordered a shot to bo tired acroHH her bow, when she hauled down lier jib, and hove t . The two veNHeh were then about 2^ "■■'*'^ f^om MarHh Point in Broad (Jove, and Ichm than 2 miles from Sea Wolt Island. Tho captain at onco boarded tho ^1. •/. Fmnlilin^ and found Homo mackerel lines coiled upon tho rail that were wet, the hooks at tached thereto being newly or fresh baited, and fresh llsh-blood and mackerel gills on deck ; he saw also other lines coiled up umler the rail, which were dry. Ca|>tain Tory charged Captain Nass with tishing that morning inside the limits, and he admitted that he was lying to with his jib down and sheets off when tho first gun was fired, but denied tliat ho had caught any nuuskerel. llo said, however, that he had (;aii<;ht two or three codfish, lie a<;countetl for his lines l)eing so recently wet by tho washing of the deck. His attention was then called to the gills, blood, and bait on deck, but no fresh mackerel being fouiul, and Nass Holemnly denying having caught any, and appealing to two vessels, which he named, for confirmation of his statenuMit, Capt. Tory releaseil him, warning him, however, that if he ascertained that he had been fishing, or trying to fish, within the limits that morning, that he would seize liim wherever he caught him, Mithin three miles of the coast. "This statenuMit is confirmed l)y the other men who boarded tlie ves- sel with Capt. Tory. JNIatson thinks the A. J. Frnnklin was not iiioii' than oim and ahalf miles from the shore when they first saw her. Nass at fir^st denied that he had his jib down, but afterwards admitted it, and said ho was waiting to see if the other vessels caught any mackerel. Although this circumstance, and his being so near tho shore wtMc sus- picious, it is obviojis that on tiie facts as they then appeared, the scizuic of the vessel couhl not have been justified, especially if it be true, as stated in the defendants' evidence, that she was then outside of the three miles. ♦'The evidence of the Lunenburg men is, therefore, very material, ami we must see what it amounts to. There were two vessels, the Chrfuhl and the Nimble, hih\ tha A. J. Franklin lay within GO to 100 yanlsot them. The crews spoke together while trying to fish. Arnburg saw- three of the crew of the A. J. Franklin fishing, — saw them catch cod- flsh — three ho is sure of j she was in the position to catch mackerel, ami | was then about a mile from the shore. The witness saw no mackertl oanght, and no fish thrown overboard. Bodeuizer states that the A. J- i^.;':i AWAKK OF TIIK lIsHKUY COMMIMMION 3393 imI oil till* l.'ltll orill on tlii-'.'ti(| HHi'l iinti rarui> of *'J,r.H tllt'tl. Siiliii' iv«mI l»y «'oiiH«'iit illHtlUlt, nil tlli> )!', hccmukI llllllc, ' of two Tiiiiit'ii ,11(1 lIlOMO of tlin tli« crow ol tlu' OctolMT, lie saw ;)it;t^(l ill tlsliiii);, \ni tln>(l li liluiik the Ni({iiiil, sNiiat rt thru (MUtit> out 1 iiiiil rail tliii'ct v«nt lit'i' t'H(!ii|)e viitMi shti hiiiilcil I ubout 2i miles s from H«'u Wolf nidin, iiiul found ct, tli»< liooks at- li HHliblood :iiul ip uiukir the rail. witli llsliiiiK tliat ,as lyliiK to with , but lU'iiitMl that it h« hiv«l t;iiu},'lit k» so rcct'iitly wpt ulU'd to tlio «ills. fouiul, and Nn'^^ to twt) V«'.SS»'ls. pt. Tory ri'li'iist'il lat lie liatl hww f;, that he wouM )f the coast. boai«U' to, jib iliiwii, loresail and mainsail np, and sliects olV on port side. I'eter iliM Uman statt's that he saw some id' the «'iew of the ,1. ./. Fiuuldin tninu to eat<;h iiiiUtUerel — they threw their lines ov<>r the starboard side -lliey threw bait over to raise ma<-kerel — they were tlirowiii;j bail with lines over, tryiny; for maekerel, as the lila /v. approaeheil — tlu'crew after ^lic tli-ed, hauled in the lines, hoisted jib, and stood nil' tin* shore. Tliu iicw elie(>red and shouted as they ^ot out of the tieet, and set their >taysail. (ieorj,'e W. NasssiiNs that he saw some ol tin' crew «dtlm .1. J, Frnnklhi heaving; bait, ami they had maekerel lines out (Ui the star* board Hide. She was hove to. Jib down, mainsail and foresail to port, IS is usual in tishin;; for maekerel — she was then within two miles of lii'oad Cove shore, and about tliret^ miles to the west ward of Seawolt* Island. When the lila h\ (tame frt)in tln^ westward, the witness heard skipper Nass call out .something to one of the other vessels — tlu^ reply |iii him was that it was one of the f the others ever saw aiv^v' maekerel iaii;;lit, nor any tlsh thrown over from th(( .1. ./. Fidiihlin. "The ca.s(^ for the prosecution is strenjftliened by certain declarations if the crew, which were notobjeiited to at the heaiiii;;, and bein;; against Itbt'ir interest as shiiresmen, aic receivable, I think, in evideiKM*. "Captain Tory testilies tliat he heard several of tlu^ (ucw of tiie .1. ./. iFiitnklin .say on the day of the seizure at the Strait of (Janso, that after I lit' ii't't their vessel at Ilroad Cove, they advise«H'aptaiii Nass to clear mit of t\n'. Hay, and ;;o iiiiinediately home — that Capt. Tory woiiM tiiid |"iit they had l)e(!ii llshin;,', and seize them, ami that th«'y would lose tlM'ir lisli, to which Capt. Nass replied, that he would like to try a few days lim;;er — that ('apt. Tory liml lieeu alutanl, and was not likely tt) trouble llit'iii a;iain, oa,i'ded the .1. ./. Frdnldiii, assif,Mi(!d as his Iriiisoii for not seizin}; her, tliat he hail fnund no fish taken that moiiiinir, I'liMl did uot think they had been tishing. The .seizure, obviously, re- ilti'd from itifonuation sui)se(piently received. "The (h'positioiis of Capt. Nass and two of his crew, ^-o much further, IjBaiul deny a tishinj;- or preparing to lisli alto;;etiier. Tliey allege that the Tjibwas letdown to prevent their runniii}^ into another vessel that was [aliead. On no day, say they, between the l.st ami loth October, had 213 F- ,H S ■ < J III Milt 1(1 'l| ' .4:)^ m .1:194 AWARD OP THE FI«IIKRV COMMISRfON. tliP 4- 'f' Friitikliii, or any ol licr itimv Imtii tl^liiiit; or prt*|itiiiiiu to lUh, or hull II.hImmI, within thrct* intiniM' iiiiN'n uI lh«' Noi th \V«>>«t roiiMt ol « ,i|„'. Itiftoii. (Ml th«' iiinniiii^ ot iIh' llth Ihi'.v Hitih'tl Iidiii I'mt MimhI towiirilN l(r<)ii)|(*. AttiM' hoiHiin^ their jili to ^o to luiNt i'lMiit, itml hiivill(( ilnt oiitNitIc ol lilt' tircl, II ^1111 uiim tiri'tl t'litlii tli«> lihi II. Th).^ cotllilillt'il nil tlicM' roiiisf, iiliil :ttlrr nilililli^ iiIniiiI IiiiH a liillo, :t nrniiiij gllM \MIM tlll'll, u llfll tilt* .1. •/. h'tiiiiklin lioM* to, iiimI uaM iMtnlilcil, iiimI, iiltfr fiM|iiir.s , uiiM Ift iiit. 'I'IiIh isthi' MiiiiHtaiii'i^ ol ('a|itaiii Niinm'k iilll tiavit, w III! Hiiitfs also lliiit ('iiptaiii Toiy wh.h ilniilttliil or ifliiftiiiil lo Mcrvf liiih, ami In lii<4 stalfini'iit of what tH-iMirrcil on tliu llth lit* ih ntn (Irinc'l li\ .Mot anil niitl .Mit< lifll. **Tli«'Mf iliiff \ iili-ncf Itoni Liint'iihiiru'. All tin* ininiili* riiciiiiiNi.in. ci'M lln'\ liaM* tictaili'il — tin* IIimI. that llit* ,1../. Fnniklin mum in tlii> cciitrt' of till* lli'ft, — that, within KMI \ar«U ol [\w Nova Scotia vi'mni-U hIic was ill tilt* poNltioii lor IIhIiiii^, tlitowiii^ halt to attract the iiinck t'ri'l, anil with her iiiics down, — her hiiMty retreat on the a|)|Moar|i oi tht^ ciittei — all are to la* rejected as I'aliricalioiiN, and the nIx witiicMMtH from LnneiilMiri;, who have no intercNt in the niatter, to la* diMlirlievt'ij. I ne(>d not Hay that no Court could coiiio to hiicIi a <;oncluHioti, and tm all the piirposeH of this suit, the eviilence of these liiinenlMirji; men iiiiist bi' taken as siilistaritially true. "To what rcNiilt, then, tUies it tentl. (Mi the cliarfje of pri'|»iiriiiy lo fish — a phrase to lie round in all the lliitisli and < 'olonial Acts, liiit nut in thu treaty — I hIiiiII say little in this jiid^Miieiit, hiiMiise it will he IIk' main eiii|uiry in the Jud;;ment I am to pronounce in a tew thiys in tin- far mole impoitant case of the >/. //. MckrrMon. Had I consideicd tlic facts in this case to amount to nothing' more than a preparing to IImIi, ! would have postponed my decision until tlii^ other wiis prepared iiihI delivered. iSiit 1 look upon tlii^ throwing of liail — the heaving; to wiili sheets oil, anil the jilidown, and the vessel thus lyin^; in he position to catch mackerel, with the mackerel lines out, and hauled in on tlieiiji ])roai>li of the <;uttei — these circumstances, ('oiipled with the declaration and actions of Captain Nass, lirin^' the case (;learlv, as I think, witliin tluf meaning of the Dominion A(;ts of ISliS and ISlO, as a llshin^;, ami Bubject the vessel and her car^o to forfeiture, altlioiii^h no mackerel an' proved, except l»y the declarations of the crew, (o have lieeii taken. It lam wioii^'iii this coiKtliisioii, an appeal to the Ili;;h (^ourt of Adiiii rally, under the Imperial Act of IStJ.'t, will jitford tlu^ D-feiidaiits iimIic.'js, and I shall not be sorry to sei^ such appeal prosecuted. Or the Doiiiin ion (lovernmeni: may see lit to relieve from the penalty in whole or in part, as they have a ri;;lit to do, under the Act of ISIJ.S, Sec. 1!>. Per Bonally, I may say — if a .liid«,M* has a rij;lit to express any personal led \uii — as the vessel was appraised at ."i'SOO, and the carj^o, in wliiiOi tlh' crew were largely interested, at a much lai't^er sum, I \\o ild lie will pleased to see the penalty in this case larj^ely inili;;ated. " It is not the jiolicy. as I take it, of the Dominion (lovernmeiit, iiorl is it the disposition ol this Court, to press with undue st^vcrity upontlm American lishermeii, even when they trench upon our undouhted ri;; The Court has been accused, I am told, of condemning the Waitiiuttmi be4'ause the steward, in the absence of the master, had caught sevc codtlsh within the limits, for the purposes of cooking. iSuidi, it is tm< was the defence that was set up, and, had it been CHtablished, tlici would certainly have been no condemnation. But the evidence sliowt^ that there was a tishing by three or four men, having lines overhoani as was admitted by the waster, and several codfish caught for the purl itloii 'Vliri iiiii hv (I •Miri fi'i't 'III' (■!■ cuts "Tl 110 Ci •nic ( "'() I I'CS AWAKM OK TMK FIMIII KY roMMlMSIOK. snoj villi Ihi'itix nini iiitt* t'liniiiiHl.tii l;lin wiiH ill till' I Scnliii vt'HSflj* tnu-t iIk' iiiiifli tllC ll|l|Mttlull lit lie hix \vi»iu'HH«t II l»t< tliHlM'lifVfil, iu'lii(*i«'i>, ii'"l '"' iiltiitji; iiH'ii >iii»*t |NMc of ciitiiii;, iitiil not (if prnnirlnu footl only, iim wiin nvcrri'tl. So, in , tlniT or tour coiIiIhIi iiir mliiiitlnl to liiuo I u tukcii uitiiiii tlit> liinitM; liiit I liikv«> not tiikni tliiit ('iiriiiiittiiiico at itll into u<;(H)iitit, iiiiMiiii'iiiit; It too tt'itliiitf to III* li uroiiml of niiithwiiiiiition. "Ill the CUM' of tlio li't'iranl^—'J hoiUoii Ailiii. iN-pts., 'J«H», UTO— Sir I Williiiiii Sfott, olisri'viMJ : "'I'lit' Court IK not lioiintl to u .HlrirtiK'sHitt oiirt> IiiumIi iiihI |)«>ilitntii! in Hit> ii|i|iliciitioii'of Mtatiiti'M. 'I'lio ( 'niirt pfniiilM tlit* i|iialill«' minimuH mm nimt h r.' Wlii'ii tlit'ii' aio iiii'uiilai itics III' vi>ry Hli^lit (M>iis«>niii>iin>, it tlors not iiittwnl that tlio :!ilhrtioii of p«>naltit>N Nhoiihl ho iiillcxilily N«n't>n-. If tlif i|t>\ iatioii \vt*ro l.i tiii'ii> tiilli*. (anil till' rati'liin^ o| a ft>\v coil ilsli fur a iii«>al is hih-Ii), I u'i;:liint; litllr or notliint; in llir piililii- int(*r«>Mt, It iniKht properly iiu lilVI'llooktMl." " I 'poll tilt* otIiiM' ('I'oiiniiM, lM>>v«>vi>r, on which I have (>nlar^«M|, I <-imi- K'ivi'it inv (liity to (h'flaii* the .1../. fV<»>i/i//«, ln'r appuri'l ami rarj;o, lor- I'lii'il, with ('lists, and her value, wiit'ti coltcuti'il Iroiii the Mail, ilistril)- ihil iiiMlcr tho Act of |.Sl{8." V of prvpiuiiin to I Acts, \n\\ not ill s«^ it will l>i^ •'"' a lew •'k.V'* '" ''"' I coiisideic'l il" re|)iiriiin to ll>*li, I niH prei>iue»l iin«l [e heaviiiK to with ill he position tn uled in on the aii , the (It'chiralioii iis I thinlv, witliiii , as a llHhiiij,', •>w\ \ DO iiiiielu'iel nil' e Iteeii taken. It I (lonrt of Ailiiii fi'iitlaiits iciliw. Or the Doiiiiii tv in whole or ii JS, See. VX IVi any personal li'tl riil), in whieli tli; 1 wo.lld be wi' ed. tloveninuMit, m severity uiionth undoid>ttMl rifilit o. o. [I'.\tiiiit t'lnin till' ll.ilirux Daily Ki'imitir iiinl Tiini-i, Novr. l.'t, l"7l. J In tliu Vk'u Admiralty Court, IS7I. The «'./. //. Mrlcernonr "Sir William Voiinj;, .Indtjci Vico Admiralty, pronounced the follow- i; jiidKinent in tlii^ above cause: — "This is an Ameri(!an Fishin;; vessel of seventy tonn burthen, owned lit Salem, Massa(;hnsettH, and sailing; under a KishiiiK liicense issued by till' Collector of that I'ort, and dated March L'.'tth, A. 1) , lS(i!). In the pioiitli of .liiiic ISTO, she was seized by Captain Tory of the hominion Scliiiiiner lila /v., wliih^ in the North iliiy of ln;;oiiisli, (Japit Itieton, aliDiit three or four cable lengths from the shore ; and it appeared the 'llt'iise (rhari^ed against her was that she had run into that lt:iy for thi; iiiirpose of prcKMiiiii;; bait, had persisted in remainin;; tlieic; tor that iirpose alter warning to depart therefrom, and not to retiirii, and had Hinircd or purchased bait while there, 'i'liis case, therehiie, ditVers ssciitially from the cases I have already decided. It ciunes within the liiu';.;e of preparin;; to tlsh — a phrase to be found in all the i'liitisli and olitiiial A(!ts, but not in the Treaty of ISIS. In jiiviii;; iuil^'mi-iit HMii (■i>riiar.\ last, in the case of the .1../. Ffnuhliu, I referred to the case 1 liiiiid, and stated that I would pronounce juil<;nieut in this also in a iHv days, which I was prepared to do. But it was intimated to thu oiirl that some (;oni|)roniis(> ov settlement mi^lit possibly take plai;e iu li'iviKie to tli;viiistrii(!tions that had been issiu-d from time to time to lie ciiiisers, and to the iiej(ociatioiis peiidin;; between the two (lovern- K'lUs, and I have a(!(!or(liiit,!y susptuided judgment until now, when it as lu'cn formally moved for. "The same asffumeuts were urjjed at the hearing of this cause as iu 0 (;ase of t!ie Wamimtuck on the wisdom of the Treaty of ISIH, and |imt' severe strictures wi^e pas.sed on tlie .spirit and tendency of the «o Dominion Acts of lS(i8 and 1S7(>. To all su(jh arguments and strij- les the same answer must be given in this as in my forinor judgments. 1l ^,.'itlr. ;'ui •" "*»'■!' 8396 AWARD OP THE FISIIKRY COMMISSION. TliP lilx'l acts out in scpurate arfich'.s tliesotwo acts with the ticiit.v, and tlio liii|M'iial A(*t.s<)t'181i) and l.S()7,all of wliicli aroadinittuil without any questi<»n.s raisj'd tiieivon in tiu* ivsponsiNc alli'^mtion. I nuiHt take tlicni, thoiefoi'c, liotli on ^eneial piinciplcs and on thu pleading, as binding ,,|, thiH coni't ; and it is of no conHC'n(;u wliother tlio Jnd^e appiovt-s oi dinapprovcs ofthiin. A Jnd{;e may jsonictinics intimate a desire tliat tjic enactments lie is eaih>d upon to enforce shoidd be niodilied or clian;;<-tl; but until they are repealed in whole or in part, they constitute the law, which it is his business ami his duty to administer. ♦'Oui' present emjuiry is, what was the law as it stood on the Statnto Book on the 30th of June, 1870, when the seizure was made.' Tin; couit, as I take it, has nothing; to do with the instructions of the ;;t)v- ernment to its officers, and which, if in their possession on that day, mijilit have induced them to abstai'.i from the seizure of this vessel, iir may induce the government now to exercise the power conferied on them b.\ the IDth section of the Acts of 18(i8. " I)Ut iiefore piirsuin}*'this inijuiry, let us first of all ascertain the facts as they appear in evidence. For tlie prosecution, there were exhibited the e: aminations duly taken undev the rules of 18,">9, of Capt. Tory and thirieon of his crew, all of whom were examined on cross-interroj;- atori(s. "t'apt. Tory testifies that he boarded the vessel at Ingonish, on the L'r)th of .June, and the master being on shore, that he asked the crew then on board, what they were doing there, and they said they won; after bait, and had procured some while they were there after coiniii},' in, and wanted more. About an hour after he saw the master, and told him he had violated the law, that he had no i)ower to allow the vessel to remain, and that he had better leave. On the 2()th the vessel was I still there in the harbor, and Capt. Tory boarded her and saw fresh bei- ring bait in the ice house ; and Capt. Mcl)onald, the master, admitted that j he had procuied said bait since his arrival ; and he afterwards admitted that he had violated the law, and hoped that Captain Tory would not I be too severe with him ; and as he promised to leave with his vessd, Capt. Tory did not th.en seize her. She went to sea the same night, butou the 30th was found again at anchor in the same place whce Capt. Tory [ boarded her; and judging from the appearance of her deck, that slu' had very recently procured more bait, which he saw the next morning, lui seized her. In his cross-examination, he says that the herrings he sawj on the first occasion in the icehouse on board were fresh, but liad bm a night or two in the nets, which caused them to be a little damaged;! and were large, fat herring, and similar to those caught in the viciiiityf of Jngonish at that season of the year. The herrings he saw on the seel oud occasion were also fresh, newly caught, with blood on them, of tbej same description, exce|)t that they were sound. "This <»vidence, in its main features, is confirmed by several of tliel crew. Grant went into the icehouse by order of his captain, and tlieiej saw about five or six barrels of fresh herring bait and a few fresh inat'kT erel. There were scales of fresh lish on the rails, from which witiiessl judged that they had taken fish that morning. Capt. Tory then seizel the " Xi(!kerson'' and i)laced witness on board as one of the crew, t« take her to North Sydney, the captain of the " Nickersou" remaininjroii board. Witness, on the passage, heard said captain say (and this sevJ eral of the other men confirm in words to the like eflect) that he liaf purchased 700 or 800 herrings that morning. Uo also said that wanted more bait, — that it was of no use going out with that uiuclil McMaster says that on the passage to Sydney, he heard some of tlif AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. :UJ97 the, treaty, anil ;etl w illiont any iiUHt take tluiii, [, lis binding ttii ge ai»pn)Vfs or nlosire tliat tin' ii'U or flianufl; ifslituto the law, 1 on the Statute its iiunU' .' Tilt! tioiiH ol' the m)v. on on that day, jf this vessel, »u' ver contenetl on scertain the facts e were exhihitiil ^k i'ere after coming e master, and told o allow the vessel iJth the vessel was and saw fresh bev- later, admitted that terwards admitted ,iu Tory wonld not e witii his vessd, same nifiht, but ou i who-e Capt. Tory ler deck, that sk e next morniuii, lie fheherrinfishesaw resh, but had been f a little dama;;ed; fght in the vii'iiiityj ; be saw on the sec- jod on them, of tlie I by several of the , captain, and tUeie II a few fresh niact Irom which witness k. Tory then seizet Lne of the crew, ti livsou" remainin.ii, nor lia\ inj; been lishing in IJritish waters, within three marine inikis of the (!(»a,st. ' Had this been proved, it wouUl have been a eomi»lete defense, nor woiiM tlie Court have been disposed to narrow it as respects either wafer, pro visions or wood. But tlie evidence concUisively shows tiiut the allevia- tion put in is untrue. The defenchuits have not uhiinied in their pha what tiieir counsel claimed at tl'.e hearing, and their evidence has ut- terly failed them. The vessel wt nt in, not to obtain water or men, as the allegation says, nor to obtain water and i)rovisions, as their witness says ; but to purchase or i)roeure bait (which, as I take it, is a prepar- ing to tisli), and it was contended that they had a right to do so, and that no forfeiture accrued on such entering. Tiie answer is, that if a privil 'ge to enter our harbors for bait was to be conceded to Anierican flshermen, it ought to have been in the Treaty, and it is too important a matter to have been accidentally overlooked. We know, indeed, from the St;ite J'apersthat it was not overlooked, — that it was suggested | and declined. l>ut the court, as I have already intimated, does not in sist upon that as a reason for its judgment. What may be Justly and| fairl; insisted on is that beyond the four purposes specihod in the Treaty — shelter, repairs, water and wood, — here is another purpose oil claim jiot specitied; while the treaty itself declares that no such other purpose or claim shall be received to justify an entry. It appears to uie an inevitable conclusion that the " J. H. Nickerson," in entering the Bay of Ingouish for the purpose of procuring bait, and evincing tliatj purpose by purchasing or procuring bait while there, became liable td forfeiture, and upon the true construction of the Treaty and Acts of] Parliament, was legall}' seized. " I direct, therefore, the usual decree to be filed for condemnation nil vessel and cargo, and for distribution of the proceeds according to tbej Dominion Act of 1871." m A.pt»E^^ Dix Q. TKSTIMONY IN UEr.UTTAl. OX BEHALF OF IIEK P.HITAN- NIC MAJESTY'S (JOVEKN.MENT. No. 1. TllUUfD.vv, (h'Utlnr LM. The CoiifViTiico met. I'lof. IlENiiv Youi.K Ilixn was (iallcd on InOialf of the Gi veriunei t of lU'i" liritiimiic Miijtst.v, swoiii and oxaiiiiieil. By ^Fr. Thoinsou : (^>u('.stion. Have you made a specialty ot' examiiiinfj into marine mat- ters, tlie etlVct of tides and winds, the liabits of tish, and such things l — Answer. Yes. (l- For a nnml)er of years back? — A. Yes; for a number of years, more particularly from the year 18(51. (^>. Y'ou devoted your attention specially to that subject.' — A. Yes; especially to the subject of marine i)liysics or ocean physics. il. Do you belong to any learned .society ? — A. No; not any specially learned society. (iJ. Now, iMr. Hind, yon have made a special study of the a,v iiiiiy liavo a Io(!iil iiiii ni Hi or aO ii)il(>s. tlioir ^ciuMal niii bciii}; in tlu^ fonii of n ciiclu or (>i-|j|isf, like iiio.st otiicr lisli. Q. TImmi talvo till' (iiiif of iSt. liawroiin' ; all tlif mai^ki'icl Itmn tlxiv rcinaiii ;' — A. I Ik'IIcvc ail thu iiiackcrol wliicli ai«^ loiiiitl in tlit'};uli im. excluHivi-ly a lioiiie tlsli. Q. And the same is triu' on tlu' AnuM'icaii coast ! — A. Yes; ami uH other coasts, Franco, liaiirador, NcwtoundlaiHl, ami wln'rcvcr llicv an. foiiml hil)(>riiatin}>'. 1 may iiii'iitioii that on th«^ i'rature '.— A. With regard to the spawniiifjj of cod, it always seeks the coldest water wherever ice is not present. In all the si)awiiin}f-f,'rounds from the Strait of Belle Isle down to Massachusetts Bay, and they are very numerous indeed, they spawn duriiifj almost all seasons of the year, and always in those localities where the water is coldest, ver — A. From uli h\ that it ahvavs 10 same temiiora- •never it spawns, yives a tempera- eziny point ?— A. v tenipi'rature .'— eekH tl»o eoltU'st iigfirounds from ud tliey are very ■ay of St. Law- that require cold 8 upon the colli hich exists in all nely, the tempei- [1 a'warin stratum criod of about 30 Baj lield, and tlie heir reports were ion they merited, investigations of ^larticularly since les in the Baltic subject of /ones lord' a key to tlie ounced with tii- n the Haltic Sea, Luowu to exist itt Ictic current.— A. le cold stratum ot fathoms, near to lulley Banks tlie water is inviuiably cohl is, that the tt'inperature is thus affected by tlio iiiirents wliicili brinj; the <'old water to the smf'iiee. That is tlie leason why the waier is always 11' or \ii' ('oldei' on the (riand Hanks than in the surroundinj^ deep sea, simply becaus*! th(« .old Arctic ciiireiit is tbitcd up and is brought to tlie surface. On the (leor;,M's shoals the marine life is that of •!(('. So also in the spiiwtiin;r jii'ouinls of the mack- cri'l in MassiKthnsetts l>ay, a ton^iue of tile Arctic; t-nneiit produces a mill tem|)erature there of about 40 '. With reference to the tidal wave I will n'fer to a diajirani. 'I'lie fjrcat tiilal wave at the full and cliaimo of the moon strikes the entrance of t!i(' iiwW about iialf past eij^dit in the morniii},'. As this tidal wave en- ters the jjulf it is split into two parts by the Mafjdalen Islands. One part imrsnes its (H)urse between Cape Jheton and the May'daleii ;;rou|>, ami reaches the southern part of I'rince lOdward Island at ten o'l'lcuik. The other portion passes around to the north of the Majfdalen Islands, 1111(1 over the (>() fathom line of sotindin^s, be(!omini; slower and slower ill motion until it reaches this jioint (referring; to I'^seiimeiiac on map), at four o'clo(;k, and tli<^ next point (Ivichibn(;to), at six ()'(;lock, and the next jioint at eiyht, and finally it meets Wnt wave which came in be- tween the Maf{dalen Islands and (Jape ilreton twelve hours before. It meets it at a point in the Straits of .N()rtliumb(>rland. In precisely the same way the two tidal waves, one twelve hours later than the other, meet at a point marked on this chart on the north side of Piiiuje Va\- ward Island. You will find the words " tidt^s meet." That is to say, the tidal wave twelve hours old meets tlu^ incoming tidal wave at tliis point and produces constant high water. There is only one other place where the phenomenon is Well known to any great extent, that is, in the (ler- man Ocean, where the tidal wave rushing up the I'^nglish Channel meets the wave twelve, eighteen, or twenty-lour hours old in the (lerman t)('(fan and produces a pernianent high tide. According to Admiral Bayfield, the tides here (pointing to Northumberland on map) are two or three times higher than they would be if there was not this meeting of the tidal wave. Jiayfield says it is twi(H; the normal height and in some instances three times. Tlie effect of it is that any vessel entering th(i Strait of Northumberland with the flood tide goes with the tide to the point where the tides meet, and goes on in the same course on the ebl) tide all the way through. It way down tliu coast to (ia.s|M''. Ho tliat a vcsHel can Mail nt the full or (;liaii;;i> of tli«> moon up tiic i'ciitcr ol tliis ilccp water p issa"f and rt'acli I'oint Dcs .Monts at prciMSfly 12 o'clock, and she niiiv turn ai'oiind then and no with the eihly Hood and down to(ias|M' by the snuu- Ihxxl tide, which reiiclics (iaspc at l..'IO p. ni. i}. Now, the vilwX ol that tide is to throw every Hoatinff olijtci ^•]^,^^, inshore ? — A. Yes. if. And iji some way it lias th«' ellect of washinj; the food of IIsIksI inshore .' — A. Ves. Q. Is the pccrnliar shape of PriiMie Kdwai'd Island due to that .'_.\, • Yes; that is the K*'<>h)^Mcal <'anseof the peculiar heiid in the island. It is tlie result of the a^es of action of lite ti(h^ upon the soft sainl stuin- rock, whicli it has cut and carried out to sea. ii. Now, the otlier portion of the tiihil wave whicli Hows over iiiti) tliis part of the };< i^ldit into two parts by the island of Anicostj ;_ A. (ine portion runs inshore witii avvHt velocity, but is only felt tlmi; ieafjues outside. There is no siH:n of a tide three leajjues outside, acemd. iiig to AdinirnI liayiiuld, owin<; to the (;ir(;umstances of the nwai tiilal wave connnpr up here. The result is that this tidal wave being rctanlcil by friction aloniif the coast, it arrives at Point Des Monts at a pcrioti entere >(f '^al recently. C^ lj;ive you been along that shore yourself? — A. I have walkedj along a considerable portion of that shore, from the Moisie lliver ti)| Seven Islands, along a magiiiticent beach, and have watched the mack erel wait, as it were, until the tlood tide came in for the lance to com out of the sand, Just as the cod are known to watch on the coast o Sweden until the flood tide drives the crabs out of the rocks and holes, when they feed upon them. Q. Then, if I understand yoa, tUo eft'ect of this tide ii to drive the food inshore and all other floating objects ? — A. Y'es. Q. Theti, filong the northern coast of the St. fjiiwreu'je, including tlie| coast of Labrador? — A. I don't say anything about this portion of tli coast of Labrador. Q. Then, from the Seven Islands at all events ? — A. From Miiigaii which lies considerably to the east of Point Des ^Nlonts, it is all driven inshore. Q. What is the food of the mackerel ? — A. It consists chiefly, first ul all, of launce and small crustaceans. Q. Well, there is a little tish spoken of by witnesses, called britt^ A. That is a popular name given to what is called the "eyebait,"ai appears to be the young of the common herring. Although, ooine fe years ago, it was considered to be of a different s|)ecies from that. Q. They say it is red in color i — A. I don't know of any britt beiii red colored. Perhaps you speak of the so-called cayenne ; that is a siua crustacean. It occurs sometimes, in fact frecpiently, in such vast niii titudes as to give a distinct color to the sea. Q. They say the mackerel eat it ? — A. Yes; certainly; their stoniacli are sometimes distended with it. Q. At all events they eat the launce fish and bait. What other fooi of the mackerel is brought inshore ? — A. A great many of the raititit marine animals called pteropods, similar to the crustaceans. AVVAUI) OF TIIK FISIIKRV COMMI.S.SION. 34o;5 i to drive tliel their stomacli (,». Alt' till' s(|uitl hnni'^lit iiislioH' also? — A. Not iicccssiiiiiy. The si|iiiil is a tri'«> swiiiiiiiin^; iiiiiiiiiil, lint tlio iiiackt'icl t'ooil, wliicli (ton* sists vt'iy liUKcly ot tlusc ht. Then there is another |)oiiit wliieli has or degrees. I am indebted to rrofes.sor liaird for the I !St Swedisli observations wliicli give temperature in the lialtie Sea. The etlect of all this is to show where the (isli go. They go into the warm or cold zones. It shows also where the food goes during the summer .season. The mackerel may for particular years .seem to liave disappeared, but there is no doubt they are there, but they are in a dif- ferent zone of water. They are in the /ones suited to their different liabitsor to the food they follow. You have a j)ositive proof of that in the toll-bait used by the Am ican tishermen. They throw toll out. Now, the mackerel are not lying on the bottom, but are in the zone that is suited to their habits. They come to the surface when the bait is thrown, luid stay there as long as they can bear the surface temperature, and then go down again. Q. When the Americans throw their pogie bait they toll them up; then if they cannot stand the temperature tliey afterwards oisappear ? — A. Yes. Q. Now along the .shore is the water miiforin, or as a rule does it vary between the degrees of 4."> and 37 t — A. 1 could not state precisely the temperature, but the effect of the tidal wave on all the coasts of the gulf is to mix the warm surface water with the cold substratum and l)roducea temperature suitable to the mackerel, whereas on the coast of Massachu.setts, where the water is so warm, tliey are driven off into the cold zone off' shore. Whenever the water becomes warm on the coast you will tind the mackerel out to sea in the summer, and whenever it is made cold by the mixing of the tides you will tind the mackerel iushore. (i. Now take the American coast; show the Commission where the '■»•"";» K. 5i:ii; •11 • I 1 If' "■■■n ''•flM-tljIt' I lUOi AWARD OF THE FISIIMKY COMMI8HI0N. coM wiittM' strikcM. — A. Acutordiiij,' to I'rnl'cssor Ilainl's reports rln'ir an. tlir«'(' iiotaWh^ points \vli*>r(> the Arittic; ciirrciit iiiipiiiK<'s upon tlic r>iii|f's tilioals. Q. For the same reason yon have spoken of, that the cold Arctic e Cod, is allecteseiv.itioii applies to certain portions of the New En^jland orature between the Arctic current on the George's Shoals, for example, and 10 or 20 miles south- west, is from 20 to 2~P. The difference between the temperature on the (rraud Banks and the Gulf Stream, even that distance from the coast of America, is 2;P, according to Humboldt. The temperature of the Gulf Stream, as given on the large map, is marked in several places iit 784° in June; the temperature just south of Long Island is marked 72|o in July. Q. Does the Gulf Stream swing in at Block Lsland ? — A. The snmmer flow of the Gulf Stream swings in with every southern wind, as far as llalifax Uarbor, and brings with it southern fishes. Q. Uave yon noticed any and what ditterence between the marine life on the coast of the United States and that on the cost of the Do- minion ? — A. Yes; the marine life on the coast of the United States, in some parts, is very similar to certain portions on the coast of the Domin- ion. For instance, north of Cape Cod, in all those parts of the sea where the depth is over 50, 60, or 70 fathoms, the character of the marine 1 is identical with the marine life on the sixty-fathom line of soundiii iu the Gulf of St. Lawrence; but it is only where the cold Arctic ci AWAKD OF THE FISHIIUY COMMISSION. 3405 •OportH tiK'ii' all" upon tli(> 1; inks tci's ami ulit'iv you will Ihmi III kvcro four s|i(it> M tor uiai'kt'ivl. I I'rot't'ssMi \ I'l t is Wroui^lit lip. is tin* (if(ii;;c's cold Arclic ciii :•, lit'(^ t'oUnil lillMI' tlirt>(4 liiciiliiii's ItitnU, and ikmi i!iin coast, r.liick ^suj'husctts iJiiy, ;tion of tlu> (iiilt S'ati's, south of suMitiici' season. no that <'>>d ami tV l»y this warm *au)e ohst'i'v.Uioii rel art' not touml ihii'lly the reason ti'S ('lost* insliorc ho fall as soon iis inn tt> the |»reva- ay 1hi snlliuieiitly .s,' occasionally to f down from tlie .eoidaiid, turnin;; ■s Ne\vft)undlami. bates, and passe it in the form ot le ditlerent cold ;\veeu the Arctic »r 20 miles south- iiiiperature on tli« :e from the coast uperature of tlie several places lit sland is marked -A. The summer wintl, as far iis ween the marine e cost of the Do United States, in ast of the Domin of the sea where f the marine life' line of soundings] cold Arctic cur rent llnils its way. On ^leor^e's Hiioals the niarine life is almost of an .Vrcti<; chara<'ter, a(MM)rdin); to Verrill,and it re.semltles an oasis of cold- liloiidcd animals surrounded hy the le of, or likely to, de- plete that co.ist of its codllsh and mackerel ,' State your views. — A. With re;;ard to that suhjeet. if you will allow me, I will cxhiliit a map or chart, showing the distiiWntion of the cod in l<:urope and America, riiart exhihitcd.) N on will find hy an examinalion of this map that it IS only wher«^ extreme cold water exists that cod is found throu;;liout the year; and upon the ,\mcrican coast it is only where- the Arctic i iir- iviit strik(>s, that coil is found through th(>year. (}. I wish to know fioinyoii whether tlunuode of flshin;,' in theTnited Sta es will deplete those waters of the cod and unu-keiel, or not ! — A. Considering tlie mode in which the cod and nnu;kert>l spawn, I think there (;an hemi iit, the mackerel fisher- ies, simply because the area of cold water, which is absolutely necessary tor the sustenance of those fish, is so c(nnparatively small, and is beinjjf constantly rediu;ed dnriu}; the summer season. The pioportioii of the area of voUl water opposite the coast of the rnited States, compaied with the an'a of cold water opposite the coast of the Dominion, is as I") toL'OO; in other words, if the United Slates has ir),(H»0 sipiare miles swept by the Arctic current the Dcuninioii has L!()(».(KM» s(pmre miles; and every jioi'tion of the food supply which (;oines to the United States has to pass tiiroufjh Dominion waters, or by the waters of Newfoundland, simply be- iiiiise the Arctic current is constantly brin},'in{j the original supply of lood from the north. AUhonj,di our seas appear to be very abundant in lite, yet, nevertheless, they are almost deserts (compared with the won- derful abundance of life in the northern seas, particularly on the Lab- rador and (ireenland coasts during the summer months. The sea, at tiiiit's, appears to be perfectly thick with life, ami to siu-li an e\traor■ 1 iSpl '.if 3400 AWAIM) OF TIfK KINirKRY COMMIHHION. th(M|iiiiiiliti('M of IImIi taki'ii on any |Mii-tiiin ol tliiMMiast iil' tli«' I intol h)tat('N, ImiI 1 liiivc iIitivimI tlii> int(innatioti I liavi> ol>taiii(>ti tVoin ilifff poi'tN ol Coinniissiont'r It.iinl atitl liis aMHiHfant.s, ami uIsd iVom ciinvfi Nations with llMlifinicn. Now wo know, lor itiHtanrts that Ocor^i-'s I'lihI^^ arc not nioi'«> than ■'(•'• ,v«*ai'H oltl as a llshinu uronntl. At lli'st it w;is in.. (|ncnt«'in .snpn'nic. Tlicy w««ni llnally (lanyiit out, as llshi'iincn H.iy. (), llalilnit is a powiMl'nl llsh!!— A. It is a nincli rnon* powi-it'iil fisli than cod, and dtivfN the cod t'loin all I'avoiitc places ol' ifS(nt. I Immi alter the halilnit had Ixmmi driven iiway cod bc^an to incicasc. I woiiM here say that ciul and halilint were taken together in the tirst instance, hilt nincli more halilnit than <;od. The cod tak«>n were ol' lart;c si/i', as is always the case when alisliin^r.^rfonnd islirst <^stal)lished on any Itaiiks; then they ^Madiially diminish in si/.it am! in niiinUcr ex(rept in c«Tiaiii localities. Now, altliont;h I know nothin;;' ol' my own knowlcd^'c, neviM- theless I'roin (!onv(M'sations i liavu had willi llsliermen, tlieit> is no doiilit it is iiHH'e diltiiMilt now to ^et a (Mr^o of hir^^e cality on the coast of the United Htates, than it was wIumi the lislii-rv was lirst coinmemuMl ; and in the same way on onr own coast. Q. You mean the trawH — A. Ves. The reason why I make use (if the term " biiltow " is becanso the term "trawlinj;" is appli«'d to a totally diHereiit mode of llshin^ iti lOiirope. (}. Von mean the loni; lino and minor lines from it? — A. Ves. (}. Take (Hir own fisheries; as lar as yon are aware ait> they practi- cally ine.xhanstilile ? — A. As far as all experieinio noi^t*, Jiidi;iiij; from history and what we see at the present time, there are <;ertaiii locali' ties practically inexhaustilile. There is no portion of the world where there is such a constant and unvarying supply of codllsli as in tlie Htraits of lielle Isle. It has been so for the piist yoo years, and you may even ;•() farther back, to the time of the old French forts and towns, iiiclndin;; the town of lirest, tlit^ ruins of which still exist on the coast of the Htraits of lielle Ish*. From the year lolXJ down to the [)resent time, the whole of the Straits of IWdle Isle, a distan<',e of (JO miles, have been famed for the uniform (piantityof cod. The same h(»lds (rood with regard ti> the (rrand lianks and Newfoundland. Tlie sann' also applies to that ama/in;; lishin<;'gronnd at tin; south coast of Ncwfonndlainl. where the codfish winter at a depth of from loO to UOO fathoms, ami where they can be taken constantly duriiiji; the wintt'r. (Compared witii Furopean tlsheries, the Newfoundland lishei'ies and Labrador lislieries are far superior in every particular. Tln^ (jharacter of tlie Norwe^jimi tlsheries, for instaiute, is very remarkable. The siimiiier Norwej;iaii lislieries are prosecuted on the northern coast, and are identical in regard to (iharacter of lisli with the Librador tislieri»'s. The only larjje fish caught are taken at Lolt'oden, Itomsdal, and another locality. lint the (piantity of tish there taken, comi»aie(l with what is taken on the Newfoundland (ioast, is on an average as the proportion to 3 to ."» ; where 5 lisli or o quintals are taken on the coast of Newfoundland, .'3 tish or ! (juintals only are taken on the whole coast of Norway. By Mr. V/hiteway : Q. Tliat is including LolFoden Islands? — A. Yes; the exports of Nor way very rarely exceed 5'J0,»)<>0 or 1501), 000 quintals. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Among the lish for which we are indebted to the Arctic current. I tlo not recollect that you named herring; that is one 1? — A. Certainly. 1 did not name herring, but it was an iaadverteQce.- AWARD OF TIIK FIHIIKKY COMMIMSION. :M()7 t of tllf I llltlMl I kmI I'l'iiiii till' re' I 41) IVoill I'llllVl'l I ( ii'oi'jjf's li.iiiks I tll'St It WIIH t'|(>. I to ri'i^ii tliiTf I >>'• I !(• pinvfitiil liOi I r ifsiMt. Tlifii I •ii'iiHc. I would I i(> lli'st iiist.iiin', I 1)1' hiru*' si/.f, us I >(1 DM tiny liiiiikH; I \(>i<|)t ill (MTlitiii I ii)\vli'(l;;«>, iicvjM- I It'lO JM tut (li)iibt I r oNiimpIt', not- I siikI In t'vi'iy lo j aIhmi till' lishiTv coast. y I iiiiikt' list' of plied to ii totally -A. Yes. UK* tlu'y in'iicti- I ts, Jiiili^iii^ troiii •e iHTtiiiu locali- the world wlicrc odtlsli iis in the l> y«',ir.H, and you forts and towns, miles, liavi' liolds <;o()il with aiiit' also applies Newloimdluml. on iatlioins, anil Compared witli brador lislieries tlio XorweKiJiii Mier Norwey;iaii are itlentical in The only larj,'e M- locality. Hat is taken on the to 3 to .") ; where Hand, .i lish or 1 e exports of ^'oi Arctic current. ?— A. Certainly. (/. Vttii have spoken of the etVeet of the tide at i'liiiee I'.ilwaid Island, :ni(i aN to there lieiiit; not only water at the temperature the maekerel iiM|iiireM, lint also the title. Suppose a hody of witness svvoie that t\u) thirds of the eatrh of miiekeiel, for instance, in Hay St. I.awreiire, ,iiH taken within three niariiie miles of the roast, and anoilier hody of i\itliess«'s .swore tiiat the lar<;er liody of the llsli is taken outside, and !li(> smaller hody inside, w liii'h would l)e the party w hose e\ ideiiee would ,i|;ire wilii ,\oiir seieiitille kliMwled;;e ot wiiaf on^dit to hr the result .' — A. I would say, as far as the (iiilf of St. Lawrence is concerned, that .('ifMtiilc evidence all tends toward throwing,' the lood near the shore, Hill it is the food wliicdi atttacts the tish. (^. Von would, therefore, lie inclined to think that the lar;;e y means of theova (d'llilVereiit varieties «)f llsh, salmon, white llsh, liass and others. (}. Tho.se nii'asures have an important etVettt on the sea llsher> f — A. Avery important etlecit on the sea tlshery, simply because they briiifj the sea-fish inshore. The cause of the sea llsh gradually (H'asiny to come inshore in various localities is the destriM;tion of the iormer lure which broa^ht them in, namely, the bait, the fry, youti;; llsh. if. Has the fact of the coasts of Nova Scotia and Prince Kdwnrd Isl- and beitiK studded with small islands any etVect on the valu«M>f the lislieries, and, if so, w hat .' — A. The oro^iiaphic features of e\ cry const iiiif exert an ama/in<;' inthieiice on the llsheries. A sandy shore, sup- |i()sin{j the marine climate is lit ted for it, is (;haracteii/.ed by an extni- unliiiary development of slu'll-li>h ; w liereas a slioie which contains iiiiiiiy bays and promontories is distinguished by the ordinary sea llsh anil by other class«'s of animal life — crustaceaiiH for instaiuM'. Tliiis, for I'Xiimple, w hen yon j(et on the coast of the United States as far soutli as Long Island, New .lersey, and Delaware, the iicli as the whelk and various kinds of clams, still the ipiantity which is found on our shores is comparatively small, except in certain localities where there are banks of particniar description. Wide exi)anses of sandy beach are especially adapted to l)e the home of the sliellllsh ; whereas, on the contrary, Juttiiijr shores, liea|inii .'. A. No. it. Voii Imv4^ Mpoki'ii of IhIiiimIm tiloiiK tlio coitMl. Homo of oiii \\ir IH>MMi>M M|MiU(> oC nilrliiti^ lUli ill imIiIIi'm. In not tin* rllt't-l ol tlii< is|,ti|,|, to niacUt'lcl cililifH .'--A, 'I'lic I'ooil In caiiit'ii liii(;U\utrilH ami loiwanUiii tlio (mMIcm. (j. Do tli(> imIiIIcn |ir<>N(>i'v«> tli«> lootl lor |Im> iInIi .' — A. Yi>it; in a vi>r\ rcmaiUiiliIti way. I liml N|Mlicnoii"'*>a cttniicctcil with tliiH 1 001 1. i). Wliaf \H tlu' rllW't of IIm' imIiIIoh !f — A. '*. .tilMMMu'rato ItHMJ. (}. AntI tlicy will coiiNtMiui-ntiy Im> rri>i|ii(>iittMl by tlin llsh .' — A. Vim; it iH with that vit'W I havii (IcNrrilKMl on lIu'Nit charU tin; movcnitMil^ ni |Im> marliiM'cl. if. How ilo tlnM'(l(li«'M int'Mfrvo tlif food .' — A. Tin-y movi^ in circles ami rllipHCN ami prcvriit tlu^ loo«l lioin Itciii^ catrictl away. TIm' Nwin;' of tlit^ litlt's mlH t'.llout'tht'r on tho lo(;ality wlicro t.li(\v may liappt'ii to Im>. 'I'Iu* HuiiiK *)i' tli(^ tiil«> in the May of Kiindy — I nit'iition tlir Itav ol' i''(imly lu'caiiM* the tiiloH art^ dcvflopt'd to ii greater extent tlirrr than on any other locality on tliiN continent — Ih aliont •(•I niileM. I'IhIi I'ood is ciiii'ied np the hay ahoiit thirty-live milcH anil hronuht hack to the Hanie plaee with the turn of the tide, thus eoiitinnally Mwiii;^iii;' liacUwaid and forward for .'(.'1 iiiileN for niontliH touether. It lre(piciitl\ happens that diirin;; the winter neason vessels (;an;;lit in the it;e will lin three or lour wccKh swin;; backward and forward in the middht of tin' bay. The swiii^ depends on the liei;;hlh of t' > tide, because that ;;o\ erns its velocity, ami if varies from \'» to .'15 s in linear extent. i). When prai;ti(;al llshermeii' slate they shin the eddies, that wonid a^i'i'i^ with your scientille iid'orination ;- a. <^iiite so. (},. In the same way, yon say that the statement that more lisli i can;;ht inshore than out in tlic^ ^nilf would sqiiaru with your scii'iitilii knowled;;e;' — A. More mackerel. (j. On the American coast, is there a ^reat nnmber of lar^o maim- factories on the rivers entering the sea If Are yon aware ol that ; iiiiii state whiit inlliience the Ameri<;an inanufa(!tories haveon the lisheries,'— A. I could not say that the American manufactories have any elVcct 1 think llie quantity of material bnnitjht down in the rivers has im ellect oil I lie sea llsh, only on the river llsh. Damage would be pio bstrn(;tinK the passa^^e up, but the sea is a ivwt voir .so vast, and constantly moving, that a small <|inintity of turci;;ii matetial inti'odu(;cd into a rivei' has no ei1'e(!t on the sea. ii. What is the elVcct of throwiii;; ovei'board j;uny on lisliin;'. ^louiids .' — A. That depends entirely 011 the locality. Where there isa strong current there is little or 110 etl'ect at all. When llshermen throw overboard, as they fic(pu'nily do, the back bone of tlu^ codllsh when lisli are cU'aued on de»;k, it hns a very prejudicial elVect (^i those llsh wliicli feed on the otl'al. That is explaiiieil in this way : The cod, as lisli do;i> a ;;eneral rule, take the food head foremost. The reason is that the lliis wouUl present an obstruction to their pasHa.i;o which the cod constantly makes to throw ui), it sti(.-ks in the stoniacli and remains there, and the cod are very frequently taken in what tisli ermen call a logy condition, with a portion of the vertebra penetratiii;,' the entrails. That frequently happens when gurry is thrown overboard. <.». AWARD or THE riHIIRHY COMMIHSIOX. 3409 t(K III il K'pnlt I. ■inliio of our wif el nl tilt' l-^l.(iii|« 4 iuhI lot \varit-i- of larK<^ iii'inii are ot that ; iim III tiie llslieries,'— < liuve any elVcct le rivers lias im j(^ would be pi( the sea is a resci luntity of Ibri'i ;ui'ry on llsliiii;.'' Wlieio there isn 1 llslienneii tliiow coillish wlioii lisli those lisli which > eod, as lisli (loii> ■toll is tiiat the tins tins }{ullet of til" are easily jiassnl in the endeavors Us in the stoinacli ikeii in what lisli tebrii peiietnitiiii; hrowu overboaril. With reuaid to tli«> itetioii of t{iirry mid lUh olV.tl In the liiirborMof New. i.iitndhind, that will de,)«-iid eiitiiely on the MfiiNoii o| the year, and uIno ii|Htii the loeidlty where it happeiiH to be thrown. I eittiKider it has ii \t>ry prejiidielal ellret iiMlnue, and 1 ha\e dex-iibi-d this in u puper which I published soiiie time Mliiee. Ily Mr. Whiteway : (). Will voii now state what you Uuow al)out the dlHtrlbiitioii of food ,iiiil the habits of the eod, and your reasons for the ureal abiindanee of tlii> tish on the Newfouiidliiiid shores.' — A. In the first plaee, w itii re< ,':iid to the spawning habits of the eod. 'I'lie eod is known to spawn liiirint; every month of the year on the eoiist of America. In Trinity 11, ly — I select Trinity IJ.iy iis one hum^ plaet*, where the water is not liHs than :t(in fathoms — cod spawn diiriiii; six luonihs of the year. Wu know this, t'roiii the tact that the spawn ijealers ^et the spawn from tlm li'.lifrmeii during that period; moreover, the llshermeii catch the cod aitli the spawn riinniii;; from it. In the second place, the .Straits of jli'lle Isle is the yreat spawning place. Cod <'hielly spawn there in \ii{;'iist, at that period of the year when the water has been cooled ilown to a ^reat extent by salt water ice. You w ill observe an immeiiso ilillcreiiee between ordinary fresh water ice and saltwater ice prodiieed I V the sea water itsell. (}. Point out the spawning localltiesof the cod on the Newf^tiindlaiid n»iiMt.--A. First, tlier»' is the vStraits of llelle Isle, particularly round .ilioiit lb>lle lsh« Island. In the sc<-iind phute, aloii^ tli(> Newfoundland I'oiist there are Notre |)am*> Kay. "lUiavista Hay, Trinity May. I havu iiospecial kiiow'|ed};e about Conciptioii Hay. TJie cod spawn from May III August all alon^ the south coast of the island, and tin the north part III tlit^ (iraiitl Hanks. (^ That may be eonsitltued as the {xreat spawniiifj ({rtuintl for the ctnl iiiiil the >{reat <'t>dllshery in the wtuhl .' — A. Certaiiily it is, all artuiiid that (Miast ; I also ineliitle part of tli ' (ireat Hanks. I kimw in i'i>);anl Hilly to a small portion tif the (iraiid Hanks asa place where tht>y spawn. I have lit) iloiibt they spawn all ttvcr the Hanks, but I liavtt tinly retreivtu] iil'oriiiatitui aliout a ci'rtain portion. There is a reiiiarkabh^ t'aitt with ri'spect to the spawiiiii;^ of (!otl, that wliilt^ they spawn in .May tni ono >iile t)f the entrance to the K'df, tht\v spawn in September on the otlmr Mile, anil that arises from tlii> simple fact that the water is not et)lil (iioii^fh till Septemiier. With re;jartl to the niotle of spawniiij; of eod iiiid all these tish, it is important to bear in iiiiiitl that tlit>y spawn in mid- Hater, with the male untlerneath the leiiiali'. That is also tlit; way with iiiickerel. Almost all seaflsh, except those eniimeratetl by ('oniniis- ioiier Hairil the other tlay, anil two or three I will atlil immediately, spawn in mill water. Vt»u can always distinijiiish between tlie e;;;,' of tlic, lisli whose spawn llouts at the siirfat'o ami the ejiti <>f thellsh wliost» spawn atlheres tt) the btittom. The e;;;,'s tif all those llsli wlit)se sjtawii oats has tliti orilit^e thrt)u;,di wliicli tin; fructifyjn;,' jirinciple of the male inters always tlownwaril. The e^-^i'S of all those lisli whose spawn is at the botttmi has the oriruie always npwartls. The milt tif the male is ilways pt)iiretl over the e<;;;s of those adheriii},' to the bottom and uu- "liT tliose tloatiii}; be the best, bath in lMiroi>c and America, you can ahvavs Hitch fish with herring. • 2U F *, »!♦ :li :i'jii :!> 3410 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. great I A. t'er- Q. When upon herring, I will ask you with regard to the aoutli coiiHt of Newfoundland as a herring spawning ground. What are your views with regard to it? — A. I only know o^' three or four localities wiuie herring has been observed to spawn, although I have not a shadow ot doubt it does spawn to an enormous extent upon the southern coast. Q. Professor Baird stated that the southern coast of Newfoundlaml is the great spawning ground for herring. Do you concur with liiin in that statement? — A. Certainly. It is one of the great spawning groiimls. There is not a shadow of doubt that the herring spawns from Capo (Jod to the Straits of liello Isle. Q. Professor Baird designates the southern coast of Newfoundliiiid as the great spawning ground for herring of America. ]>o you agree with him ? — A. Yes, altogether. There are very errotieous views entertained by Hshermen with respect to the spawning grounds of herring, and also with regard to the spaw iiing groumls of all fish whose spawn adheres to the bottom. The herring spawns in water from 5 to 130 fathoms in depth. Caplin, instead of spawning only in great number on beaches. as is generally supposed, spawn also in 30 fathoms. The launce also spawn on the Grand Banks, where they have been caught full of riiie spawn, and they spawn also to some extent on the Newfoundland coast, Q. Professor Baird pointed out Grand Manan as one of the spawning grounds for herring. Do you concur with him t tainly. Q. Having stated your views with regard to herring, would yon be kind enough to continue to answer the question I put to you with regard to bait? — A. The season of the j'ear, excluding herring, determines to a very considerable extent the bait which is used, especially on the coast of Newfoundland. The first kind of bait you have there is caplin, and caplin is found only as far as the southern portion of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. It is essentially a cold-water tish. It is found in immense quantities off' Greenland, to an enormous extent upon the northern por tion of Norway, where the codiishing in the summer season is not called snmmer cod-fishing, but the caplin fishery, simply from the cod following the caplin inshore. The next bait, as a general rule — but it varies ven] much each year — is squid. Sometimes launce comes in before S(|nid I have heard of one or two cases of squid coming in as early as June. Q. Have you any reason to give why the bait-fish approach oiir| shores — the herring, squid, caplin, and launce ? — A. I think there is reason, but I think the reason that is generally stated, viz, that tlie.l approach the shore for the purpose of spawning, is begging the ques' tion. I think it is doubtful whether they approach the shore only loi| that purpose. They approach the shore because they are driven In predaceous fishes which feed on them. The cod follows the capli and drives it inshore, owing to the circumstance that o Coil NewfouiuUiiiulas )o yon agri'i' witli views entertaiiuMl herring, and iilsoi spawn adheres ti» to 130 fatlionis in [ iinber on beadies. The hiunce iilsoi anght full of iiiii| wfonndhuul coast, one of the great | tU him ?— A. Cer- ing, wonUl yon be to you with regard •ing, determines to jcially on the coast :here is caplin, an.l of the Oulf of St. [found in immense 1 the northern por- season is not called n the cod following —but it varies very BS in before sniiid/ as early as June, tish approach onr I think there is;j ted, viz, that tliej b»'gging the q\m the shore only M they are driven M ollows the caplii during the spawn .rs developed. Tiij evoloped during til tell you they cM yards and not seej tig of fresh ca^lir U appears to bod cod inshore, 'm fferent from that why it is develope by the remarkabH winter. AH aloii| ;oast of the Uuitt Staten, herring are lying under the land during winter at depths of from 15 to 30 fathoms. There are lying a little farther out seawanl, especially on tlie coast of Newfoundland, from one to two miles out, but in a different zone, millions of cod. Vou have the herring and its prey lying close together, but they never come in conflict with each otiier tlnring that season of the year. Q. Why do they not? — A. The cod is found in from l."»0, ISO, and 200 fathoms. The largo herring is, comparatively speaking, near the siirfacse — at a depth of 30 fathoms or so, acjcording to the zone of temperature. The cod is feeding on the young herring, which are found deeper tlown. When you catch winter cod you will ahnost invariably fintl herring or caplin in their stomachs. If it were not so, the species would very soon be destioyed; it seems to bo a providential arrange- ment by which the species is preserved. It is the same with regard to many other fish. Their y(2 3412 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. carried on, except to the extent of three, fonr, or five vessels? — A. Yes. About 40 years ago the Bank fishery, so far as regards Newfonndlaiui, entirely ceased, and the fishery has since been carried on altogctlior within shore, and is extending year by year farther and farther up the Labrador. As far as my observation goes, and as far as statistics go, 1 am able to sliow that the increase during the last <»0 or TO years — since for instance, 1804 — has been almost perfectly uniform, when you take into consideration the increase in the population of the country. Of course, it is to a certain extent dependent upon that, and subject also to those fluctuations which continually take place in our fisheries — in tbe mackerel and cod fisheries — and in the marine climate on the Anu>ricaii coast, also in the herring fisherj'. Q. I think you have i)repared a diagrau) showing the progress in tlio fisheries ? — A. Y^es. (Diagram produced.) This shows the annual flue. tuations in the exports of codfish from Newfoundland from 1804 to iS'fi. and a continuous increase since 1850, since when there has silways l»eeii a mean of one million quintals. It reached one million in 184'J, and at'tcr that it either approached to or rose above it continuously. Q. Those diagrams you prepared from authentic records, I believe J— A. They are f-.j prepared. Q. Then froui 1804 to 1870 there has been a uniform increase in the pro ductions of the Newfoundland fisheries? — A. I would scarcely use the word " uniform," otherwise one would suppose the increase was contin- uous froTn year to year ; but take a group of years, say five years, and the increase is continuous. Q. You are aware of the different modes of prosecuting the fishery on the island of Newfoundland both by British and French, 1 believe ?- A. Yes. Q. Is the cod seine used there to any extent ? — A. It is largely used in the deep bays of Newfoundland, and also by the French on wliat is called the French shore ; that is to say, on the northern coast of New foundlaud and in the northern portion of the gulf. Q. Between Cape Itay and Quirpon? — A. I mean more particularly between Cape St. John and Quirpon. The seine is largely used along this coast. I saw it myself largely used there last year; and I saw tbe seine used by Newfoundlanders in Trinity Bay. Q. You know as a fact that it is used ? — A. Yes ; and largely. Q. At what season of the year is the cod seine used ? — A. This is tlie case during what is called the caplin season. Q. That is when the caplin are on the coast in great abundance ?- "tes; when they first come in. Q. And when the cod are also there in great abundance? — A. Yes. Q. Have you any knowledge regarding the quantity of cod taken in these large seines ? — A. Personally, I have no such knowledge, have never counted them, but I have seen a very large number taken. Admiral Oloue states, in his report, that frequently 30,000 an taken in a cod seine. Q. In one haul ?— A. Y'es. The statement that from 10,000 to 15,(i and 30,000 cod are so taken at a haul also frequently occurs in the re ports of Newfoundland fishery oflicials. Q. From 50 to 250 quintals are thus taken in one haul of the seine!- A. Yes, fully ; and, in many instances, more, because sometimes a scbM is composed of large fish. Q. That is 250 quintals of what are called green fish'?— A. Y'es; l)f fore they are dried and prepared for market. p;: ,.i , JSION. ve vessels t— A. Yes. 'iinls Newfonvullaud, nrried on altog«'tlii'r i'r and farther up tlie I far as statistics go. 7 the ; ill 1802, on J line J5, on May .50; in jcord for 180H and 1 have no record uneS, and in 1870, the ai>i>earance of . There are gener noes. I have liere ited States, and 1 ach year. For in- , in 1875 the mack- n the 10th of May, the Magdalen Isl in 1872 on the 2(tth ugh this must be a their arrival at tlie find that here for Ml better do it pre riptions of ice, and iere are three forms 1 our waters ; these iiirs in the form ot n of salt-water iee: uid ice, or ice whicli rtant form of all is e or no effect at all lid which they pro mall specific gravity ; but the floe ice is ature of about three That is due to tbe ne being entangled that wherever salt rea down to its own the ice floe than 29 gain, when the salt ,arily melt first, ami the result is that the l)rino of the ice being of a specific gravity much ijreater than the surrounding sea water, this very cold, lieavy water .sinks down to tiie bottom of the sea, or to a /one which is of the same spei^ific gravity. Hence the result is those different /ones in the Gulf ot 8t. Lawrence which are described in these papers. By Mr. Doutre: Q. Are you correct in stating that the coldest |)arts of the ice melt tirst ? — A. Yes. This does look strange at the first blush ; but when you think of it, you will see that the coldest parts must melt first. Now the effect of that is that wherever you have salt-water ice, which is raining down a stream of cold, the moment it gets to the fish, they will not cross this line of cohl. The effect of this is most marvelous in the distribution of various kinds of fish in the spring of the year ; and, be- sides, the effect is more marvelous still in the distribution of these /ones of cold throughout the gulf, or zones of cold as recently found throughout the Baltic Sea, producing those zones of temperature iu which the ffsh roam during the summer mouths and find their food. By the President : Q. What is the third kind of ice ? — A. The third kind of Ice is ice that only forms in the coldest waters. It is formed at the bottom of the sea. In a letter which I recently received from Dr. Carpenter, he de- scribes the formation of this ice in the Baltic Sea. It is known in Ameri(^a, especially in relation to fresh-water ice, as anchor-ice : in our livers it very frequently is found, especially in rapid rivers. There is one condition required f^r its formation in the sea. You must have a rapid current, or otherwise it cannot form. This arises from the circum- stance that the water is reduced down to the temjierature of freezing salt water, which is 27 degrees; the sea freezes at 27 degrees only, or at 25 degrees in perfectly still water ; and when it is brouglit down to that temperature, the moment that the cold water impinges on any surfiice iee crystals start out from it, and these ice crystals accumulate one on tbe top of the other until they become so light that they break loose and rise to the surface; hence it is that it is always necessary with re- jrard to seal nets — which, during the winter season, are sunk from 18 to 20 and 22 fathoms, by the Newfoundland sealers, on their coast, or on the coast of Labrador — to watch these nets, for fear that the corks, daring a perfectly clear night, iu a rapid current, should become in- crusted with icy particles; and if this happens the whole net will sud- denly become incrusted with the icy particles, rise to the surface, and be carried away, causing the loss of the net. They always find that lisli, or anything that may be caught in the nets — seals, for example, if tbey remain for an hour or so in the nets when the anchor-ice is form- ing— are frozen. One important point of practical importance with re- {laril to the action of ice, to which I would direct attention, is that which tbe Swedes and Norwegians have now, under the supervision of the Nor- wegian Government, introduced, namely, the finding out before fishing operations commence the zone or depth at which the iish are to be found. This is the first thing that is done. On the great fishing-grounds on tbe coast of Norway, for instance, their first step is to find the depth at which the fish are to be found, and whether it be 10, 50, or 00 fathoms, tbey will sink their nets to that zone. The way in which they find the zone in which the herring are floating is by means of a very narrow net, w hich they will set, for example, at night. Such a net will be, for instance, 100 fathoms deep — a common seining net inverted. This they sink, and when they take it up they find fish entrapped iu it at the zone ('. V iMi » tm 3416 AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. or depth in which tlie flsh are to bo foiuul. They then sot tlieir seines according to tlie depth at whicli the llsli are found. Q. Do you mean to say that the zone where the Hsh are to bo found is ascertained by tlie government ? — A. Ves; this i« done umler tln' su pervision of the government. Q. For the information of tlio flsliermeii ? — A. Yes; and tlie fisher- men are also provided with theiinometerH to ascertain the /.one or dcptli at which the tlsh are to be found. I ought to say that they did not ]>rovide the Hshermen with therniometers for that particular purpose, but for the testing of the temperature of the sea-water, with the view of nseer taining the days and hours when the herring llsliery is most likely t') ho productive; and in Scotland the Jishermen now are provided with ther inonietera ; that is to say, those who are capable of using thermometers, So it also is with respect to the Dutch Government, which has provided most of their fishermen with thermometers to ascertain the temperatiiic of the sea, with a view to instriuiting them as to the period and day oi Lour when they should sink their nets, how «leep they shall sink them ; and I have no doubt that these thermometers will, in the course of twd or three years, become an agent of very great value with regard to our lisheries, enabling us to ascertain the depth at which they are likely to tiud herring iu the fall, or, if we can, in the spring, in the ditVerent zones of water. By IMr. Whiteway: Q. Uave you any other infornuition to impart regarding the effect ot these descriptions of ice upon the fisheries ? — X. I have prepared sonic diagrams, but I did not think them worthy of remark, and consequently 1 did not bring them with me. These are merely to show fishing places in the bays, but they lead to results which, if viewed in a proper manner, can be properly interpreted. Very frequently you find, for example, cod coming in without capliu and caplin coming iu without cod ; sometimes, too, you find tons of dead capliu lying upon the surface of the beach. Now, I think that the explanation of this fact is exceedinglj- simple. It arises from this circumstance : I observed myself last year, while wan- dering for weeks, at least for a fortnight, among a field of ice composed of fro/eu detached pieces, extending over a surface of fifty square miles, that no cod and no caplin came underneath that ice ; they would not pass through the cold current which was perpetually falling and form- lug beneath it. The tishermen prophesied where these fish were to be found, and I ascertained that they were found, as they intimated would be the case. The explanation of this is exceedingly simple. The caplin and cod come in, and meeting the ice, will not strike through the cold current which is falling the while from the melting ice, and is being carried along the coast ; but instead of striking across to their customary haunts, they in such event proceed along the ed to them, which form the food of codfish if — A. Yes ; in this way : We always find the lowest forms of vegetable life in the Arctic regions associated with the ice in vast pro- lusion. They are described by those naturalists who have been in these northern waters as completely covering the sea for Innnlreds of thou- sands of square miles in the northern waters of (Ireenland seas and ballin's Bay ; tens of thousands of square miles of these peculiar vege- table forms were described by the otticers of the Valorous, who went to take provisions to the late Polar Kxpedition, under Captain Xares. I iiave with me various descriptions of these anlmalcuhe, and of the enormous extent to which they are developed ; I have also appeiuled t«) this paper here a note, by Dr. Robert Brown, describing the chain of connection which exists between these minute diatoms, found in the Arctic seas, ami the food of all fish there up to the whale, an«l showing the most minute connection between them, and also how it is that in the northern seas many varieties offish, particularly' such as the gigan- tic basking shark, feed exclusively upon shrimps — a variety of shrimps which form the food of our mackerel — and are specially provided with suitable apparatus for it ; so it also is with the seal. Now, I have succeeded in getting a portion of the mouth fringe of u shark Jibout 35 feet long with a special apparatus whicii, in a single moment as you can see, is womlerfully formed for the purpose of sift- ing out these shrimps. The shark p;isses through the shrimps with his mouth open, and his mouth is furnished with this peculiar kind of ap- imratus. These teeth are designed to prevent its food from escaping. The shrimp feed on the animalculic which feed on the diatoms. It is also a circumstance worthy of mention, in order to show the enormous range of the common squid, that in the northern waters the stomach of the narwal is found filled with the beaks of the common squid. By Mr. Trescot : Q. How many of these appliances for the taking of food are found in the mouth of the shark ? — A. A succession of them are laid along in it. Q. Are they placed transversely or parallel in the jaws ;' — A. They move like gills. By Mr. Whiteway : Q. As regards the codttshery of Newfoundland, I believe you have stated it is entirely inshore fishery ? — A. As far as my experience goea it is exclusively an inshore fishery as now pursued by the Newfound- landers. Perhaps on the south coast here and there during the winter ey may go beyond what is technically termed the three-mile limit. lis is quite probable, but taking it altogether this fishery is pursued -■^1^,^-T ■I| III ntly ap|)ear in cdh. ttiderable abiimlanue, and wliere many yearH a^o tliey made theii a]i pvaraiico in huoIi nnmberM tliat it iMHtill aconiinon Haying aniont; tlslKii- men there that they wore then "enrHedotl the coaHt" becauHe they tillfd the herring iietH and were a ^reat nuiHance to them, nn tliey euuld liiid no market (or theme llHh, and ho they UHed them for manure. By Sir Alexander Gait: ii. At what distanee from tlie sliore do the French prosecute tlie cod Jlnhery ? — A. They ilsli Insliore, HomelimeH to five miles out, but gener- ally close inshore. The water is deep there (]uite close inshore. Tliey are tlshing all along the shore. Q. Are the seines which you have described dragged from the shore '. — A. Not necessarily ; very frequently they inclose the ttsh and bale them out. Q. They do not draw them to the shore? — A. No ; in many instanees they cannot draw these seines to lainl ; the water is so deep and tia- coast so sheer. Q. I want to understand how these seines are managed ? — A. I only saw one handled once, and 1 would not like, under the circumstances, to give a general description of the way in wU'w.h they are used ; but they are managed in the ordinary way in which seines are managed at sea. They drag the seine together where the bottom of the seine will reach the bottom of the sea, for otherwise, of course, the fish in- closed would escape. Q. How do they get the flsh to the surface ? — A. In a large seine, there is always what is called the bag, and they get the Hsh into this bag. These seines are not drawn together with strings like purse nets, but knowing little or nothing about them, I will not venture to offer a description of them. Friday, October 20, 1877. The Conference met. The examination of Prof. Henry Youle Hind was resumed. By Mr. Whiteway: Question. Have you a general knowledge as regards the French fisli- cry as carried on, on the coast of Newfoundland and on the Grnml Bank i' — Answer. I have no personal knowledge in this respect except as to what I have seen between Cape St. John and Quirpon. I was only in one of the harbors there twice, but in the course of conversation with different iishennen, I accumulated as much information as I could ; and I have informed myself as far as possible concerning the history of the French fisheries, particularly as derived from French works on the sub ject and also from otlicial statements relating to the last 40 years, con- tained in the records of the various Parliamentary works to be had in Newfoundland. Q. From your information and general knowledge as regards tlie French Bank flshery and the French coast fishery, what in your opiniou would be the effect, if the French were prevented from getting bait in any w.ay from the coast of Newfoundland ? — A. With reference to tbo French Bank fishery of course any information which I can give on tbe subject is necessarily that which I have derived from official documents, because I have no personal knowledge in relation to the French Bank fishery; but from the information which I have gathered, embraced in records that go back over perhaps a period of 40 years, the uniform tes 1 WilH ill H Kood >H|u*cially in tin- \y up))ear in con ,• imulo their mt- iig aiiioiiK (Islicr cauHO tliey tllW'il H tliuy cuuhl tiiid iiure. )ro8ecute tiio vM 58 out, but gCMlcr- 10 inshore. Tlin 11 from the shore '. lie fish autl ball- n many instancos 80 deep and tlit- aged?— A. I only he circnunstanci's, ley are used ; i)ut 8 are managed at toMi of tlie seine jourse, the fish in- In a hirge seine, the tish into this g» lilie purse nets, venture to offer a October liO, 1877. IS resumed. 8 the French fisb' nd on the Grand his respect except irpon. I was only conversation with )n as I could ; and the history of the works on the snl) ast 40 years, con- rorlcs to be had iii ye as regards tlie at in your opinion ■om getting bait iu ;h reference to tbf . 1 can give on tbe official documents, the French Bank lered, embraced in ■8, the uniform tes AWAKD OP THE FISHERY COMMIHHION. 3419 tiiiiony seeniH to be that if tlicy were cut otVfroin tlie means of obtaining Iresh lierring anti caplin for us(M)n the (irand Hanlti|)ply themstdveN, Nome 40 or fiO years ago, wit < this bait, and as far as 1 can gather from conversation and also from the Ntatistics I have obtained, the annual (piantity of herring which they re(|iiii-(> varies from :t),ni)Oto 100,()(H> barreln; while the annual (immtity of caplin that they need varies from 40,000 to 00,000 liogsheads, and so on. Q. Have you any knowledge as regards the value which the French put upon their tlshery rights on the coast of Newfoundland II — A. I liiivo only the knowledge which history affords in this relation, which is that they have always been most tenacious of those rights, from the titne when the Islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon were conceded to tbem, together with certain HU|>posed rights on the western coast and on tbe northeast coast of Newfoundland. They have not only been, but are now at the present time most tenacious of those rights ; and it has been a source of constant ditllculty between the British tishermen and tbe French fishermen, with reference to the supposed encroachments of liiitish fishermen on the fishing grounds they claim. Q, Arc you aware as regards the number of men and nets employed by the French in these fisheries 1 — A. I have gathered here the statistics wbich are published by Admiral Clone, who for many years was on that coast, and who is the author of the French work entitled Filote do TerroNeuve, which is the oidy great authority not only for the French, liiit when translated also for the British, for a very great deal of our information respecting the coast of Newfoundland. Now, these tables are taken from his otllcial work, and if necessary I can produce the work itself, which I obtained for that purpose from the Library of Par- liament at Ottawa. It comprises two volumes in French, and is entitled I'iloto do Terre Neuve par Le Contre Aoint of the Island of Newfound- and, where they join the French fishermen at the port of Quirpon. Q. The desjileiira fish sometimes within three miles of the shore and sometimes outside of this limit ? — A. They fish more frequently, I be- ieve, outside; and then we have a class of men who tisHi in dories alto- KiJ I Mil '"'1! m |*i m ■u-tX i 8420 AWARD OF TIIR FIHHERY C0MMIH8I0V. |{('tlii!r, und who AmIi ultoKt'tlicr iiiNlioro. Now, I liavo hero u Htatciiicut MliowiiiK ttx) iiiiiiiIh'I' of iiicti who llMh in dories chtso iiiNhoiv on thf wt'stt't'ii rotiHt and the iiunilu'r <»t' HocitlU'd ilcHjilvurHy tiioHC that ;iii' alh'Ki'd to follow the vm\. I ni'cd Ncantoly nay that tliiM tinni atiHCH liiiin a Miisinttupivtation of tlio liabitH of tlu^ flMJi, Tli«*y nii'icly intncopt Die dillficnt hcIiooIh of (!od and caplin a.s thry ronu' in from tin; Knif to the coaNt to Hpawii, according t«> tln^ f^iailnal t'lHt> of thu tonipttratnro with tlio HcaHons, as they prof^rcHs farther to the north. (j. And tiio lar^'o vesHels that tlsli between Cape St. .Fohn and i}\\n |)on an(;hor in the liarborH and llsh in dorieN clost^ inshore *, — A. 'I'Ih' dories ilsh close inshori>, Init the seiners may voast alon^' for some cini Hideralile distune.'. Von are aware of thi^ fact that the vessels are )li do with the (;()d tlsliin^ during the season, «m the northeastern Atliiniii coast. This is altoj^ether a boat-fishery ; they require, of eours*', lar;;fi boats than dories to man)i;;e lar^e seines. i}. The vessels anchor in tiie harbors thuro dnriny; thu \yliolo of tlic fishing season ? — A. Yes. i}. And the (Ishery is oarri«'.d on in boats f — A. Yes; that Is to sn.v, on the northeastern Atlantic <;oast. (j. And the tish which are tran^ht in boats aro taken within the tliifr mill) lindt, close inshore, ami alonj; thu shoru .' — A. .\s far as I saw, tiii^ was the case ahmj; thu coast between (Jape St. .John ami l'artridy;i point ; but, of course, there wuru curtain portions of thu coast which 1 did not SCO. Hy Mr, Dana : Q. I'rofe.ssor Hind, I ilnlaiu what that means in this connuction ? — A. My instructions were to have the wonl "conllduutial" |)rintu(l upon it; and it was not purnuttutl to j^o out ol the hands of thu printer until spucial instructions wuru rucuivud for that purpose. Q. Then this was not your own privatu undurtiikiu}; under your own responsibility J — A. No. Cl, You could not control it ? — A. Certainly not. (i. You furnished it ' — A. Y\»s. il To others ?— A. Yes. Q. Who could control it ? — A. Yes. il. For whom it was written ? — A. I received instructions to place it, when it was written, in the hands of thu printer, from the commissiomr of fisheries of the Dominion of Canada. (i. The commissioner of fisheries f — A. Yes. il Who holds that ollice ?— A. Mr. Whitcher. Q. You received such instructions from him f — A. l''es — in relation to the printing of it. Q. Aud you placed it in his hands '/ — A. Y''es. Q. By whom were you requested to prepare it ? — A. Originally bv Mr. Whitcher. Q. Y'^ou make* a distinction; you say "originally"; was there anv tli( tJK tio |H'I re; oil sfr ( a|i ton ( do iiii^ <, Cci (, dVc Ihi tliii If;,' wit wit ( it's Q tioii <.> the Lam •I piuo . (. AWAIU) OF TIIK riHIIKKY COMMI8MIOK. :u2l i(>r« u HtntiMiu'iit IiihIioiv oil tilt' tiittHO tliiit ari> Umiii aiim'H IViiin Oly lllt«MT,«'pt till' I till) K»l' ''» ''"' iinpunitiiro witli .liiliii uimI <,>mii shore f — A. Till' u\r lor somr cini ) VCSSt'ls Ur»' lll^ have nothing t^ uMsteni Athiiitu of course, h\\n*'\ the \yhole of tlic ft; that iH to siiy, 1 witliin the tlin-i' far as I saw, tlii> 111 and Partiitlt!' the coast whUli 1 if to be issiUMl liy The elVect of tlu' 'isheries aiul Kisli- iiid, M. A.; Hall .'Xplaiii what that ;o have the word tted to no out ot reeeivod for thiU i under your owiil ictious to place it tlie conunissioncr k'es— in relation to -A. Originally by "; was there any ciiiiiiK*' Mul»Hef)iienHy ! — A. No ; I May orij^inally, hroauHe (he liintory of this matter <;oiniiH'need Home time hack. Do yon wish me to ileserilie it ! t) If yon pleaM<> ? — A. It Im HJmply this: Wlieii I eame from Newfound' land, in May last, I wan leipieNted to put together the various facts with which I wuH familiar in relation to llslicries, and especiiilly in connection witli ocean pliysittN, and such hke; no I coinmencey Mr. Whiteher. (.}. He asUed yon to put thcNc tacts together ?—.\. Yes. (}. Yon did not conlliie yourself to Newfonndliind .' — A. O, no. (}. TIiIn is a yieat liooU, compiisiny I,'»(» very lar^e pa;j;es, lelatiiitj to llic mackerel, licrriiiK< and oilier llshericN. with chapters (Ui the etVrrt of the Wiishin);ton Treaty upon th«' Initcd States, and the general condi- tion of the IJnited States (Islieries, and the total extinction and disap- lii'iirance of cod in ('('•tain places, i\:<\ ; it purports to lie an arffiimiMit !('j;ardiiij; the elVcct of the lishery clauses of the Treaty of NVasliiii^ton oil the llsheries and llNliernieti of llritish North America ; were your in- stnictioiiN to prepare such a hook ? — A. The matter was left to myself. (). To prepare what you like i — A. Not what I liked ; lint to prepare a jiaper on tin* general Niihject of fisheries connected with the Washing- t(in Treaty. No delinite iiiNtrnctions were yiveii me at all. t^. Does this tith^ describe fairly tlic work which you undertook to (Id.' — A. I think it does, at least as tar as a title can do so; but yon iiii^ht (les(!rii)e it in a dill'erent way. if. At all ovcntN your name was juit to it and you approved it ? — A. Certainly. Q. Then of «!ourao yon understood that you were to write upon the t'lVect of the fishery clauses of the treaty upon the llritish Ihheries and Ihitish llshermon ? — A. No; I did not understand anything of the kind ; that was left entirely to me; lU) iiiNtrnctions were ;;iven me at all with K'tjard to what 1 should write; 1 was merely to describe what I knew with resiwct to the llsheries of Ibitish North America, and parti(;ularly with their relation to the Treaty of Washiufiton. ij. You were to de.scribe the etlect of those clauses upon these Hrther* ics ? — A. Y'es. Q. And the fishermen ? — A. Yes. ii. And that is what you undtatook to do ? — A. Yes. A. And that you put into the hands and left to the discretion of an ollicer of the Dominion (iovernment ? — A. I beg your jiardon. ii. When yon had finished the manuscript you put it under the con- trol and discretion of an olHcial of the Dominion (loverninent ? — A. Cer- tainly not. il, what w.im ilntin with it .'—A. The cilin n, r»iiiaiiH'«l lit tlii^ priiit(*t'rt olIltM* ; hoiim* t'i>vv (;o|ti(>H \vt>n>, liovvcvcr, t ikin out ot hiHhiiihlH; I, lor i*xuiii|ih>, took Nix dopicH out, iitiiltT iiisiiiK tlotis to hcikI thciii up to tho Witvi'iiy Hotel; uiitl thut iM ull I lomw iihout it. Q. Voii HCiit tluMii tt> th«^ NViivj'ily ilotitl ! — A. Yoh. i). You tooU out Mix copies .' — A, \vh, i}. Aim! th<> rcNt, you Nay,at'i* ill tlie pi'ititei'H haiulH ? — A. No; I tlnnk that iieaiiy the whole of them iiie there, l»ut Noiiieare in my poM.ses<.iiiii. (}. VVaM '*coiillth>iitiiil '' NiiKUeNteil hy you, or directly liy the otllrii ni the ^'overnmeiit who had (diar^e ot it .' — A. It wan directed to lie pl,in<| there hy thi^ olhcer of the ^overiitueiit. (j. Ho that you then had no ri^lit to let any oiu^ Mee it without lii> conNent / — A. I had no li^ht to do no. Q. You were anked l»y Slv. Thomson, I think, how lonj,' you had iii;ii|> a Npe<'ialty of Hea IIhIi / — A. i'arduii me, not ol' Meu IImIi, hut of ociaii phyMi<'M. (i. Then you have never iniule of Mca llsh a Mpeeialty If — A. Certain!;, not. Q. Hut you have of oiiean phynii's ! — A. Yen. i). That relates to the animal lif< of the ocean f — A. No; hut it n Intes to the ocean and its temperature, and, for instance, to winds ami Icp. (J(. And the formation of the bottom of the sea .' — A. O, that wonll come in, certainly. Kvery material thing that alfects the sea is iiicliidol under that head. Q. You have not maile a special Hulijcct of the tlsheries / — A. >fo. Q. Then as you aro not particularly aci|uait»ted with the ilsherio, perhaps your attention has lieeii given for many years past to cheiiiisti.v and geology and mining if — A. Yes; hy profession, I am a geologist. (j. We are lamiliar with your name in (toniuction with the gold min('> of Nova Scotia.— A. Yes. Q. I believe that when goldmine stock was put on the market n! Boston you presented a (iertilicate toucihing it ? — A. No; never. Q. Did you never give snv.h a ceititicato .' — A. No. (J. You are conlldeiit of that .' — A. (^iiite. il. You issued two or three books about this matter? — A. No; I dii not. Q. They appeared in your name? — A. 1 have nothing to do with that they are (locuments belonging to the govertiineut Q. We have records of the dillerent ^' la as 1.^(5!), ISTO, and ISTli, by Hem kindly turn over a page you v addressed to the government o i},. This is a record of the 81 paper on the gneisses of Nova Si ,, ■ts published as lal Yo' e Hind, Al. A.— A. If y<»u wi ii.it these aie otilcial dociiiiieiii .1, 8cotia. looko uold di.-uict together willk a ?— V. Yes. i}. And a paper on the gold-mining di. i ict of Nova Scotia, read befmi the (leological Society of London and the Society of Arts in London ? — .\| Yes. Q. Were they lirstread there, and then incorporated int** reports .'- A. They only tbrm part of a report. They were lirst nnid before tli Geological Society of London, and discussed, and also bcioro the Socit't of Arts, and discussed there; and then they were iiitroduohn(>mmioii. ly l)> llu' olUifi III SCO It without lih «>ii>; .you h«»l iiiiiili , ilslii hut «>t ocean Ity J— A. Certainly -A. No; l»»t Itf' aiict', to wimls lunl — V. O, that won!. 1 the Hou \h iiu'hiilci liori«'H ?— A. No. witli tho llsht'iio, iHitast toclitMiiisti.v 1 itiii a j,'Coh)Ki.st. with tliogohl iniiu" on tlio marUet a! No; iH'ViT. tj.,.; — V. No; I 'li int:: todo with that; piihhslu'U a« lat A -A. If you wi (»nicial aocumeiii AWAKI> or Tim KISIIKKY C'OMMIHHION. UIBB — A. I Hhouhi ratlu'i- Huy ii«»f ; tho r«<|>ort it kIvtHh'titl> of (IiIm ; llii'y aro ii«l|utM'tM to li i-<<|iorf. 4,>. Ami not imitof tlio I'l'poii lit ull .'—A. <'«>itiiitily not. (). Tlitf ri'poit iH ^iviMi with iliiit |)a|M>i' f— A. V«'m, i}. 'I'lio |iii|H t*<|)oi-t f— A. Yt>M ; tlii< |ia|M>r WIIH iciul. i}. T\w lust Olio in ilati'd IST'J; I iiMM't'ly put Mio <|Ui>Htioii, in otilci to iimi'i'tain th«' vx-M't llfitl of in<|uiry to which yon liiivc u'wi'U >oiir ait«>n- linn ; thou, ill inhlition In iiiJnin^, Xc., your piiiiripiil ocriipiitioii iliiiiii^ siiiiic years pa^t Iiiih Imm'Ii the fxaininatioti tif the pliyMirs til tlM> sni .' — A. Tliat iiiiN hceii hu'Kt'Iy tlu« niNit ; liiit 1 would not call it iiiy principal oc- ciipatiiMi. My profcssKUi is that of a ({colo^iHt. (}. And a niininu cii((iiic(*r .' — A. Nti. i). You arc a ucoloyist .' — A. Yes ; a jj[colo;;iHt morcly. (7. And even the j,'coj,'riiphy ot the sea — If we may use that cxprcHHion, tlioii^h It is a rather ciuitradicttu'y term — is not your primary and priii- ripal occupation i — A. No; it is not my principal occupation. if. I will not trouble you with many qucHtioiiH alioiit the hahils of li.sh, UN y(ui do not profess to lie an expert on that suhjcct ; your helict' iiliout (todtish is, that it is not mi^r.tttMy If — \. Certainly. (). Ami where do ymi think it uocs ; docH it disappear during; the Hoa- son, or do you alwayN timl it in ahoiit the same wuteiM ! — A. It is alwayH ill alMHit the Name waters; hut I imaK>>ie that it has a certain very lim- ited mi^M'atory moviMiuuit, following its food a distance perhaps ot rr(), or 1(M> miles. (j. Do you think that it disappoarH out of the (liilf of St. Ijiiwroiico t —A. ('Crtainly not; the cod is there all tim winter lhrou(;li. i}. It does not ^o (uit at any particular time through tho Straits of ISellu ittle or between NowfoiindlaiKl and (hipo Itroton / — A. No; tho cod can be <;auglit in tho Straits of Hollo Ish* ip to Christmas. <^ Ami how soon afterwards i — A. As early in tbu siiring as tho ice niovoH, and oven under tho ico. {}. Tho ditllculty in (uttching it in winter is not caused by tho abseiico ol tho Hsh hut by tho presence of tho ico .' — A. Yes ; tho practical dilll- ciilty then is to get at tho tlsli. (,». Tho tlsh are then tlioro .'—A. Ych. i). Then tlu' ctid do not move from place to jilaco in Iho gulf in i>ni'- siiit of any particular food'/ — A. (Certainly not; outside schools may iM'casionaily go in, but this is not generally tho case. I belii^vo that all tlie schools of (;nd are, comparatively speaking, local in their habits. ()., And the cod spawn in cold water.' — A. Y'cs, and in the coldest water. ii. III tho cohlest water short of ice ? — A. Yes; short of fresh-water ice — that is to say, a temperature of .'{'_'. (}. Up to what liguro ? You say that is the lowest. — A. That depends oiitirely upon the marine climate in which the cod are born, so to speak; it together with « you are aware that the haliits of the lish on the coast of North Amerii: a Scotia, read betoi] .rtsin London'?— .\| Ated into reports .'- irst read before till so beioro the Socii'tj roduced in a repot! )art of nur report a ililVer materially, in connection with tlu^ is tliuH art'ected tjy the enrrenls which hrinj; the cold water to tlie surface. 'I'liai is the reasot) wliy the water is always 14-' or Iti colder on the (hand Banks than in the snrronndinj; deep sea, simply bocanso the cold Arctic (Mirrent is forced np and is hronyht to the surface. Over the (it>orffe',s nhoals the nniriiie life is tliat of the tent- J)oratnre of about 'lo dcgreca. So also is the spawniiiy-grounds of the mackerel oi tlassachusetts Hay. Q. Then what do you mean by saying that the temperature of life is always about 40 degrees ? — A. Tlmt is the temperature indicated the marine life tliat is found on the rocks on the George's s'loals ; for in stance, the species of shell-fish, the different varieties of .jiirinips and the ditt'erent species of star- fish. Q. Or any other fish ? — A. Well, those are not true fish, but ditfereiit marine animals. Q. You UiiiLied some fish ?— A. The cod is fouiul there. Q. Then there is a temperature sufiicient for the sj)awning of cod on George's Bank f — A. IMost certainly, in the month of February ; but the temperature rises nuiterially in May. Tlio temperature on George's Bank is sometiiues th \t of the Gulf Stream, which in summer flows over it and drives at such times the cod away. Q. IJow far must you go down in JNIay to get a current of water or zone of water of the temperature of 40 degrees ? — A. Where ? Q. On George's Bank? — A. The water on the George's shoals is only eight fathoms deep in some j)arts. Q. .Just take the lower part of the shoals, or the region Just around it? — A. I should say that in February you would fliul a portion of the water on the George's shoals considerably lower than 40 degrees. I should imagine that the temperature on these shoals would then be degrees, or lower than that. The mean temperature on the Grand Banks in February \!■^ 31 degrees. Q. As to the spawning-grounds of mackerel in Massachusetts Bay you say that is the same ; you say as to these sparwning-grounds of mackerel, that the Arctic current there i)roduces a cold temperature ot about 40 degrees ; is that correctly reported ? — A. Yes; but then it has to be understood that for this you take the proper months of the year, The temperature of the water varies with every mouth of the year. Q. To and fro ?— A. Yes. Q. Steadily ? — A. It varies to and fro with great regularity. Q. Daring what months of the year is the temperature the lowest in Massachusetts Bay? — A. February. In some parts of this bay salt water ice forms. Q. Then we m.tj assume that it is cold enough there for the spawning of lish that so spawn ? — A. Certaiidy.' . , Q. Will yon state what you mean by speaking, as I understood, o( ^^^^^ the mackerel coming into the Bay of St. Lawrence, and striking first at fia.v the sen sea yea ( per u it a fou: IK) t'oui ll)0( eul the thermomoter orge's Bank, ^:(^. ;ion of the Antic It the surface. ; and I osi)ecially urge's liank, stat' it. ether 1 uuderstood ratnm of water wliicli rfact', aiul one rtmsdn I is, ttiiit tlio toinjicia- to tlio Hnrt'ui*^ i'liiii (iiaiid Hanks tliau in it is forced up and is life is t'liat of tlie tciii- ds of tlie mackerel oi niierat'.ire of life is rure iiidicatetl the je's shoals; for iU' es of .,iirimps ami ,e fish, but (litlereiit lere. il)ii\vning of cod on of February ; but Brature on (xeorge's summer tlows over nrrent of water or Where? irge's shoals is only jrion just around (la portion of the ban 40 degrees. I wouhl then be 3:^ )u the Grand Banks assachu setts Bay, arwning-grounds of old temperature of es; but then it has onths of the year th of the year. regularity. ature the lowest i" s of this bay salt re for the spawDingl as I understood, oi uid striking first atl AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. 3425 tlio Magdalen Islands ; do you find that to be the case If — A. I think you must be mistaken. Q. Which come in the first, mackerel or herring? — A. The herring. (j. You say that the (irand Banks, the southern coast of Newfound- land, and that neighborhood, is the great home of the cod. I'erliaps you will also add in this enumeration the Labrador coast, all the way uj), as far as you are accpiainted with it ? — A. No; I would not. Q. What is the great home of the cod ? — A. On the American coast it is the Grand Banks, and the southern shore and the northeastern shore of Newfoundland. Q. That is their great home to day ? — A. I apprehend that that is their great home. Q. Their great home, of course, is where there arc banks ? — A. Yes ; generally where there are banks, but it is not necefisarily so. Q. I do not want theory but facts ? — A. As to 'he southern coast of Newfoundland, this is not a matter of theory at vll, for they are to be found there in 200 fathoms of water ; they are co.istautly taken there ; 150,000 quintals are caught in that part in from 100 to 1*00 fathoms of water. Q. They are taken there ? — A. Y'es. Q. Do you mean to say that their home is not necessarily on the banks ? — A. Yes. Q. I do not believe that the absolute necessities of the cod are known to science. — A. It is, perhaps, a misapplication of the word " neces- sarily," for which I must apologize. What I meant was this, that the reason why the cod is found on the Grand Banks, and the reason why it is found at the depth of 200 fathoms, near to the Grand Banks, is because the Arctic current is exceedingly broad there, and on the southern coast of Newfoundland there is a deep passage for it ; hence, it passes also between the Grand Bank and thecoast of Newfoundland, iiiul the waters are consequently cold enough for and consonant to the habits of the codtish. Q. Do you think that the cod is not found where there is no Arctic current ? — A. 1 think it is always to be found where there is an Arctic current. Q. The depth at which the cod must swim in each locality at each pe- riod of the year would depend mainly on the dei»th of the Arctic cur- rent?— A. I should not put it in (hat way. (}. I dare say that jou can state it much more clearly ? — A. I would ay that the depth at which they swim is entirely depembMit on where their food is to bo fouiul. They are not bottom feeders, in the ordinary sense of the term according to the oid p(ii)nlar meaiiiny', but at certain seasons of the year they are bottom feeders, and at other seasons of the year they follow their food elsewiiere. Q. Will they follow their food irrespective of the coldness of the tem- perature?— A. 1 think not. Q. Taking their desire lor food anil their desire for cold baths — taking- it altogether — how do you think it is generally true that tliey are to be bund wherever there is an Arctic current Howiiig .' — A. I tliink Uiere is liio doubt that, within certain geograi)hi'ot Georse's Uiiiik ?— A. Tliat is not faitiicr south than ('apt. Cod. Q. When ,vou speak of cod bciiifj found oil" tiie coast of Newfound- land, to how many lat horns do you refer .' — A. It is cauglit (here in L'dii fatlioms. (f. What distance would that ordinarily be from the shore ? — A. Tiiiit varies very much; son)e deep inlets tiiere vary in deptii from l.")0 toL'Oi) fathoms. Of course, I can produce a nmi» or chart, if you like, and sliow you those loctalities. Q. Takinjj the .vestern shore of Newfoundland — you know the limits, of course ; you iuive written this book on the subject of the effect of tiie W.ashinjjton Treaty on the liritish fisheries and fishermen, and you know, of course — what is the American linut under tlie Treaty of 1818?— A, Yes; I do. Q. Within those linuts, what would ordinarily be the distance of loO fathoms from th shore ? — A. Well, 1 could not say ; but it is very close to the shore — 2, i>, or 4 miles from it. Q. It is not necessarily at a distance of 3 miles from the shore, of ' course if — A. Not necessarily ; certainly not ; that distance has notliiii;; at all to do with it. Q. When you come inside of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the great jdaces for cod wherever they arc to be found are usually in consulerulile depth of water? — A. Not necessarily, but usually. For example, tli? first place, so far as is known, where the cod ajtpears in the Gulf of St, Lawrence is Natashquau, a peninsula on the Labrador coast, not very far from the eastern extremity of Anticosti. Q. Are they found on Banks there? — A. Yes; outside Natashquau; and there is a reason why they are found there. Q. J)o you regard the mackerel fishery as a precarious and uucertiii kiiul of fishing f — A. Yes. Q. The habits of fish cannot be understood ; we will never kiiowo be able to make this fishery anything like a certaintj-; it is a lottery tA a great extent ? — A. I tliink not. I tlunk that the Gulf of St. Lawreiio l^^^ mackerel fishery cau be made much more certain tlian it now is; audi you wish, 1 will describe how this cau be done. Q. If you can do so, and reconcile it with your statement that it is precarious and uncertain fishery, yes. — A. It is a precarious and uncertaii fishery in this way: unfortunately, throughout the gulf, the mackeie] fishery is chiefly carried on by means of open boats. Q. You mean to say that this fishery is thus carried on by the i habitantsof thiscountry ? — A. Yes; and hence, in the first place, tiieylo; to a very great extent, the great benefits of the 8[)ring mackerel (ishe in certain localities. For example, they lose the spring mackerel fishe on the Jiradelle (or Bradley) Bank. They have not decked boats, wliicj would emiblo them to take advantage of the spring mackerel fishe there. Secondly, tliey labor under the great disadvantage of not beii able to follow lli^ mackerel when they move under the influence of t wind from one side to the other side of the Baj" of Chaleurs ; and in t third place, they cannot follow the mackerel when, under the indueiii of the wind, these fish pass from the north shore of the Gulf of Lawrence, via Point l)es Alonts and Cape Chatte, to the south shor* fishing, as they do, in oi»en boats, they cannot take advantage of tliei opi the set aim wlii the; thai of ( add enn the able Q A. 1 Q. Q. this take cans Ihad tishei ('()ns( sprin Q. tainb Q. foiuul a II tun think their temp( Q. Wlic part of they lii '» ill Q. Q. ige Q. '. liis is Q. 0, G, ioner Q. I aragi qnot (}. A fates Q. hiiig Q. I note Q. Jl on. \ AWARD OF THE FISMKRY COMMISHION. 3427 but the Esqni. s, I shoulil opportuiiitit's. TIkm'o aro three points in tliis i»';iiir(l. Then, npiin, on tin) cojiHt of I'rince Edwsml Iishind, owinj^ to the) nncertain winds which set in there, the nnickcrol move from one point in tlie fjrciit bifjht to another iioint; and if they possessed sailinjj boats or (U'cked boats, which wonhl enable them to remain out one nijilit or two or three nights, they would then be able to follow these Hsh to a much greater extent tlian they now do. These are four points in respect of which the use of decked boats or vessels of from 15 to -50 tons would enable them to add nmterially to their present profits. At the present time these fish- ermen make a mere liviii}?, but if they were to carry on this fishery in tiie way 1 have mentioned, it would become to them excedingly profit- al)le. Q. You mean that this would bo the case if they had large vessels ? — A. Yes ; vessels of larger size, of from IS to 20 tons, for example. Q. The Americans have very large fishing-vessels ? — A. Ves. Q. Is it a precarious and uncertain business to them ? — A. It is, in this way: The great ditticulty with them is to reach the gulf in tim»i to take advantage of the si)ring fishery. You very rarely find the Anieri- cans enter the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and reach Orphan or Hiadell (or bradley) Hank or the Bay of Chaleurs save for what is called the summer tishery. This fishery takes place after the fish have spawned ; ami in t'onsequence of this fact they lose in the gulf the advantages of the* spring fishery which they gain on their own shores. Q. Then there is a spring fishery on the American shore ? — A. Cer- tainly. Q. Which they gain ? — A. Yes. Q. Is it still true, as you remark somewhere, that the mackerel are , found in great numbers on the New England coast in the summer and )r coast, not V'^'!'|jmtninn j — a. I do not think that is the case there in summer; but I Itliink that in autumn the mackerel come in there; I am not aware of side Nata8hquan;|jjjgjj, j.Q,jji„g i,j there in large numbers in summer ; I think that the temperature of the water there is too warm for them. (iJ. You say : rpose »uth than ("aiK- (t of Newfound- 1 ,'ht there iu'J()i>| liore ?— A. That from 1.".0 to 'JOii lu like, and show know the limits, the effect of tlie n, and you know, ity of 1S18'J-A, B distance of loH It it is very close om the shore, of Aiu:e has notliinj; k-rence, the groat y in consuleialile For example, tlifi n the Gulf of St )us and uncertaiiJ ,11 never know o , it is a lottery td llf of St. LawrenoJ it now is ; and i| ement that it isi lions and uncertaii lulf, the mackerel [ied on by the iJ Irst place, tlieylojj mackerel fisliei E mackerel fisht'i jinked boats, whicj mackerel fislu'i Intage of not beiu he inttuence of ti laleurs ; and in tl Inder the intiueiif if the Gulf of lo the south shorj Idvantage of the When tbe mackerel lins ajipoaied on tlie coast of the United States and the southern [part of New EDjrhind, they are ao jinor that they cannot be sold tor food; but after ItliL'y have spawned, in May, tlioy rapidly increase in fat, and are talien in yreat uum- Iburs in the suimner and fall .' Q. A. Yes. Q. That is what I read from your book ? — A. Will you refer to the (i. This is on page 70, sixty-sixth article ? — A. You will observe that tliis is a quotation. Q. I do not see that — no quotation-marks are here ? — A. It refers to ■0. 0, and is a quotation from the Jleport of the United States (Jommis- gioner of Fish and Fisheries. Q. Indeed, the quotation ends on page 70, with the 1st, 2d, and 3d Kuagraph. — A. True, it is not strictly a quotation, but a reference to quotation. (^ A reference ? — A. Yes ; to a ((notation from the Report of the LTnited States Commissioner of Fisheries. (J. You stated that it was a quotation ? — A. It amounts to the same lliiiig; it is a reference. Q. I cannot agree with you in this ; to refer to a book is not to |U(»te ? — A. You are quite right ; I refer to the book as an authority. (). For your own language? — A. Strictly speaking, it is not a quota- ion. '^f'^f^^y' 1 ■ , "7$ 3428 AWARD OF THE FISHKRY COMMISSION. Q. I was misled by your usiiijy tlio word " quotation" ; I tboiiglit jon meant a verbal quotation. — A. I did not mean that. Q. You refer to tUe United Htiites Commission of Fisheries Report when you say : After tliey Mpawii in May tlioy rapidly incrotiHO in fat, and aro taken in jfreat iiiiin- burH in tiiuHUinniur uitl tall. Did you mean to put that in, thinking that it was incorrect or untrue ?— A. Certainly not. If you refer to the paraf,'raph you will see that i sn\ : ^'Vi(k United .States Fishery Keport, i)age (14." Q. That is the place from which you cite as an authority? — A. Yo.s, Q. And did you not suppose it to be true '. — A. (), I supposed it to bo true to a certain extent; in fact, I believed it to be true. I consider that the statements made in Professor Baird's report are true, as far as his knr)wledge goes. Q. Have you changed your mind at all as to the fact that they do ''rapidly increa.se in fat and are taken in great numbers in the suminor and fall ? — A. I never formed an opinion touching the fishery' on tlif; New England coast. I state here "on the southern part," and I think you will tind that this limits the area ama/.ingly. Q. You allude to the southern part of New England ? — A. Yes; and that limits the area amazingly. 1 believe that is a spot where the Arctic current comes up. Q. What do you think of the autumn fishery oi\ the New Engliuid coast? You have spoken of it in several j)laces in this book. — A.I think that the mackerel come in there again in the fall. Q. You think that they disappear during the summer? — A. They disappear and go into colder zones of water. Q. They sink or go out. — A. They sink simply because the cold zone sink; that is to say, the cold zones retire farther and farther from the warm coastal waters, and the mackerel follow them, and as the fall approaches the tish come nearer and nearer the coast. Q. They make another incursion on the New England coast in tbel autumn ? — A. Yes. Q. Then perhaps you would say that on the southern coast of Nl'w| England they increase rapidly in fat and are there caught in great quaii titiesin thesummeraud autumn, and that on the restof the New Englainl| coast they are caught in the spring, and again as the weather becouiu colder in the autumn ? — A. I should think that very probable. Q. And you do not think that the mackerel appear off Cape Coil, as elsewhere described, very fat and in excellent condition in 0(;i ber and November, coming down there from the Gulf of St. Law reuce ? — A. Certainly not. Q. You do not adopt what we call the fishermen's theory in thi.s i gpect, in which they still believe ? — A. No; in the paper which at yoiii request ^ 'daced in your hands yesterday, I especially enter into- a di: cussion ;'.-i that subject and point out how it is improbable that tbi mackerel pass through so many isothermal lines in ascending and di Hcending order ; this is physically improbable, and in that paper i point it out. Q. 1 suppose that you omie held the opinion to which I have referrei and that you did until you examined into the subject, as did most men science? — A. I did so until I read a paper written by Mr. Whitclier when I had read tli it very excellent paper, I was perfectly satisfied tha it was not the case. Q. And you think that this is the present scientific opinion ?— Yes. Jiist of St (I and llialil) wliic Q. 00 n eal n tlio ay ; 'egar( eiitiii lonsu mst, stro Q. lot to tank, ti ad sher^ Q. ' live AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION. .5429 Q. Some tablos appear on pajje 81 of your book, and you say : CuptHiii Atwood oiimiKiriitt's in his •' K'fiiiiirkH on tli»i F'iHlmrins of tli«^ CoiVHt of MaHHacliMNottH," iiiiltiinlin(l in tlii) Ucport of flu* I'nitml Stiittis I'lulicry t'diiiniiMsirdiciH for l-tl-'/'J, '••■' till) loliowinK yt'iirM uh nott'il for rxtrnino Viii'iiition in catch. ]<\\ — (iroat catrh, It.".'),,'').')".* biirritJN inHpt'ctcil. IWtl-lKUl— (iriKlmil fiiiiiii),' oil'. IKtlt-l-' 14— Ffll to 7r>,iMi(i l)iuivls in n year. 1-1 1— Only r)(i,lilf> harivls. Irtll-lHlil — Oiiulnal iiicrcaHO. 1H)1-1H71— y(l(».(»()(i barrolM, 1-71 C*)— 2:14,0(10 ban'clM. Now, to your iniinl, does that table sliow a stcaily falliii^ofr and decrease of the mackerel tislle^il^s of the United States '. — A. A steady falling oil' '. (}. Yes; and decrease throughout all the period from 1831 to 1871 A. No. It shows a series of lluctuations. (}. Then you do not consider that the fisheries of New England are in a state of ruin '! — A. To what (isheries do you allude in particular? (}. I allude in the first place to the mackerel fishery ; do you consider tliatthe mackerel fishery of New England is ruined ? — A. Certaiidy not. (}. In somc^ respects it is rather increasing, is it not? — A. I think that; it is liable to increase and decrease ; it is subject to great fluctuations. i}. Take halibut, haddock, and that kind of lish ; is this fishery in a state of ruin, or anywhere near it? — A. 1 think that the halibut fishery there is in a state of rai)id deterioration. - (^>. You think that there are none caught on Crcorgc's Uank ' — A. T tliiidv that there are a great numy caught at George's iJunk, but not so many, or nearly so many, as was fornuuly the case. (}, Do you not know that there has been a very great (ratch of them of late years,. and that there have been found, not on CJeorge's, but lunir George's, at a depth of LMH) fathoms of water, a very large (juautityof halibut ? — A. 1 have no doubt that they will find tiuMu all round the Criilf of Maine at that depth — in what is described as St. Oeorge's (lulf, Justin the same way as I think they will lind them throughout the Gulf uf St. Ijawrence, in deep water. Q. I suppose that the necessities of the great market of New York ght in great vernnient, throuyh its diploniatie ajjfent at Washington, oi' in l"'ranee, or has the Ameri(!an (lovt'rnment, throu;;li the Secretary of State or any one else, ever taki'n up that subjeet f — A, The subjeet was brought up thnuigh the instrumentality of tlie Frentji CJovernnu'nt ; it was also done through the instrumentality of their agent in the IJnited States. Q. Do you mean the consul at Boston J — A. No; but thiough tiic agent of the French Government, who was sent to the United States for the jiurpose of intjuiring into tlnur lisheries ; and his re|)resentatioii was made to the French minister; but the applications had been made to the French consul in IJoston. (ii. Then the French minister was told that certain persons in Boston had so applied to the French consul there .' — A. Yes. Q. And nothing more came of it' — A. 1 am not aware of that having been the case. Q. On page !)1 of your book, under the head of certain conclusions which you reach on this subject in connection with the Washington Treaty,' you say : Tlie niaclierel tatcb is a speiial iiulustry, and requires sea-going vesHelw. That you are prepared to say? — A. Yes. Q. You continue: Tbo boat equipnieiit so conniioii tbrongbont our Britisb Aiueiiean waters is wbolly unsnited to tlie pursuit of mackerel, wbieb bas been so largely carried ou by United States lisberuieu. A. Y''es. Q. That you still consider to be true ? — A. Y'es. Q. That is, that the pursuit of mackerel should be carried on in large vessels such as the United States Jisheruien use ? — A. Pardon me. did not state it at all in that way. I explained a short time ago how was that larger vessels should be used by the inhabitants of the Bay ot Clialeurs, of Prince Edward Island, and elsewhere, in order to enable them to talce advantage of the spring mackerel fishery ; and if this was done, these fishermen would become wealth^' instead of remaining poor, Q. I did not like to call attention to the poverty or want of know edge or of education of the i)eople of the country. — A. \\ ill you kindlj point out where I have described these conditions '! Q. There are things which you have niore right to say than 1. — A, But I did not say them, 1 think. Q. Y^ou say that — Tbe boat equipment so common tbrougliout our Britisb waters is wbolly unsuited to tbe ])ursuit of mackerel, wliicb lias been so largely carried on by United States fisluT men ; and immense scbools of mackerel are frequently left, unmolested in tbe gulf an{l on tbe coast of Newfoundland, in consequence of tbe lisbermen being unprepared wi suitable vessels and gear. i). niphical Maine ha' ilepth at ^ begins to I tij an up and about 1,U( servable \ AWARD OF Tin: FISHEItY COMMISSION. ;u3i IS \vii.s many ISO. — X. V»'s, ill iiilud StiiUis i>.s.si'(l on llio ; hut a.s lai ;li — tlu'.jt'iil. t ii lioiieli'ss lie jifTiMit at I'lit, tliroii;;li iubjccf ? — A I tin'. Krciit'li lity of their tliiongli tin iiitt'tl States 'prt'si'iitatioii il hei'ii made (MM ill Boston f tbat having II conclusions Wasliingtoii iielH. •iitors is \\h«\V (1 ou by UiiiUi Hi on ill large irdoti me. le ajfo how it of the liay ol er to enable (I if this was lainiiis: poor, lit of kiiowl- 11 yoii kiiull.v \- than I.— A, oily nnsuitcd to id States lislun' ill the gulf anil luprtpared with Is tliat so ? — A. Yc« ; this relates to the spriii^j ll^iliery, on lliiulley iiaiik, for iiistaii<'(>. (}. Is fills statement true .' — A. It is; as I inter|»r('l it. (}, As you now interpiet it .' — A. Vi-s ; and as I always have inter- prcted it. It was written with that express vi«'W. (^ It does not (tontain any limitation. It is said that — Iinilionsi' srlHiDJH of llllli'kt'l'i'l mIi' Irlt linillDli'stcil in tiir jjllll' uml on tlir inunt of Nl'wI'ouihIIiukI. A. Yes. (}. Are then^ imineiise sehoids there .' — A. Yes. (}. Which an^ beyond the reach of the boats.' — A. Yes; especially (liiriiif; the spriii},'. (}. And, therefore, they are left unmolested in thenuif in eon.sccpienco of the (isiiermen bein;; nnproviih'd with suitable vessels and ^'(^ar. You coiitinne : It is, lm\V('V(M', il rcsorvt) for tlio future, wliicii, at no distant day, will ho utilized. (j. It is yniir iiopc and expectation that the|>eo])1eof the Dominion may take the tish in larfi'cr boats or vessels, wlii<'li will enable tiiem to put an end to this kind of disability and disadvanta;;'e under which they now labor / You also think that the tish telegraph system might bo adopted and used as it is manay:ed in Norway; that is, by telegraphing along tiie (roast the presence ot mackerel, I saiipose ? — A. Yes ; and of lisli generally. (,). Y^ni think that eddies tli of a little less than 100 fathoms, jiiid KK) fath* oins is (100 feet; so yon may put suiih deptli at about 500 feet ; liut that tffect would be niiappreciable to ordinary observation. (^. Atwhatdepth isit ai»precial)le toordinaryobservatioii .' — A. I could not say; I know, for instance, that in the Bay of Fiindy, at a depth of ."lO fathoms, it is very appreciable, but that is an exceptional case. The geo- graphical features of the province of Xova Hcotia and of the coast of Maine have a wonderful effect ujion the tides and in diitermining the tlepth at which they mix up the wateis. But in the ojkmi sea the effect begins to be felt at a depth of about 500 feet. Outside of that it is merely an up and down movement of the particles of water, moving at the rate of about 1,000 miles an hour, following a wave like motion. It is only ob- servable when it is multiplied by the tide breaking upon the coast, but Yes; but that is a different il'lhl '. ! 34a2 AWARD OF THK FISIIKUY COMMISSION. hi Ji L 1 1 it boKitiH, nH I Maid, at a di'iith of .'lOO tcct. Hut In tlu^ iiiiddio or the ocean it \h iinappn'cialilo. (j. Vou My it is an up and aM. Q. That is, tilt' advaii(*<> niovcnit'nt isa vcrv small proportion ? — A. T\w motion is csprcially an nndnlatoiy niovt'MHMit at tlu* rate of alioat l,ii(i(i miles an iiour. it is very similar to the nndulation of sound, it is u vertical movement of the i>arlicles, and tliis movement is propagated to other particles. Q. What do yon mean when yon speak of the partii)earance of uuu'kcrel close in is rather accidental, is it not ' — A. No. Q. What is it owinj; to? — A. The winds. Q. They are Hay <'lia- tlio llOI'tll, north ami asbrouKht !—A. No; aiul wliich [ul is in tlie jfs It ?— A. It is born ghborhood, ant to see You say ; , nevortbe- abundance Greenland pears to be nt does life iterially in- In a few id the ther- lues colder. eing driven to and tVo by ineuiiM of the .\retio. eurrpiif, and it follows the oonrse of tlio t;roat stroain of m> which produces the cold in Labrador and tlio cold Konorally tlironuliout tln^ \vost(^rn world." That we arc to iindor- Htaml to bo so f — A. No; instead of the word •'deserted," read "desertH.'* There, is no sense in the word ''deserted'' in that place. ^ on are eoiii- parint; an iinat;inary tiling with the actual. i}. They are always deserts? — A. Comparatively. (}. (Compared with the northern abiindaiKU', of fuod. (}. Von speak of footl then, and not of tlsh ? — A. Of food. (). "Appears to bo porloi'tly thii-U.'' Now, do yon mean the ther- nioiiieter in the water or in the air t — A. In the water. (^>. ho you think that th<^ temperature beeomint; t^old atteiMs the tish,or that the llsli disappearing; att'eiits the temperattit(> of the .sea ? Do you ically think the life issoj,'reat as tt» alVoitt tlie>,'eneral temperature of the Hoa ? — A. Yes; no doubt of it. That, you ob.-iorvo, is on the authority of Dr. Ilrown. I nu'iitioiu'd at thii time I was ^jivinjj that evidence that I had the extra(;t hero. i). It is not (pioted by you .' — A. No. I mentioned it at the time. i). Are they warml)loodod or m 34.'U AVVAItl) OF TIIK KIHIIKUV COMMIMSION. (J|. Now, t\w it'siilt <»!' tliiiH is that tlicy iti'"' waiiii Montli'd ? — A. No. Tlit'.v itn> not. ^ oil uii^ ii nvuiiii lilootlt-tl nriiiiiul. (,». TIk'H .\oii niiiiiot iiiiHwrr willioiil, rclciiiiiu |M«rsoiiiillv to iiu' .'— A. Wi'll, I Hill a waiiii lilooilnl ariiiiiiil. (^. Tliat .H not liflp int', lM-citusi> yon ilo not iippcar in tinit cttpiirll y, Itnt as ii witni-Ns ot rt'itain i'actM. A nnm is a waitn Itloodcil anincil, and NO IS a s«'ai A. V cs. Q. Now, air tlit'Nc animals, or crciilnirs, that caiisr tiiis cjiaiiftt^ in lin- thcriiioinrlcr — an- tliry ol lh<> wiiifn ItlootltMl .sort .' — A. < 't'ltiiinly not. i). Tlu'y arc nut cukl bioodt'il .' — A. Tlii'ic is no sucli lliin;,' as a «oii|- Itloodcil aniinal. i). Tiii'ii wiiar can yon picdlcatc of them if they nif not warm idoodid. ami llici'c is no Hiirh tliin;; as a cohl Itloodcd iinimal .' — A. I'lsii ar«> niM tiii'cs wlioNc tcinpciatnro is tiom 'J ' to P ubuvu that oi' tin* mrdiiim in which tlicy li\c. Diatoms arc vcp'taltlcs. (). Tlicy have blood .' — A, Kisli ami aiiimalcnlic have. ii. Voii did not attribute the tact to the Itlood ,' — A. Tlie blood is the aucKt Ity \vlii<-li the heat is produced in animals. (I. Tlicn it is tiie e\isten(;e of the blood in tlicm that (;anses the heat to be produced and h'wvm out? — A. It is the c\istem;e oi' the blooil which is the means ot prodiicin|{ the heat. Q. And that they communicate to the surroiindin^r water? — A. Yes. t^. And that causes the temperaturo to do whi<"h, to lise or fall ? — A. To rise. Q. Kow, tluMi, can you tell me Iiadn't yxn that in mind when you answered my question '. I doiiH mean in the least to call your statement in question, but Iiadn't you all that in your mind when you answereil my ipiestion that they were cobl bloodeil '! Von answta-ed that they were coUl-blooded. — A. I nuule use of it as a i>opular phrase. Q. Would tliat> as a [lopular |)lirasu apply to a warm blooded animal ! — A. No, certainly not. Q. You really think that these animals raise the temperature to that decree? — A. Yes, the mass of minute life raises the temperaturo by l.'^ or 3^, umiuestionably so. J{y Mr. Foster : (i,. Are they visible to the eye i — A. Yes. They wer»^ also disitovered to a considerable extent by Sir Wyville Thomson in the subarctic re gions. You will lind a full descri[)iioii of them published. liy Mr. Dana: (). The pla(!0 where I found the reference in your testimony does not refer to Dr. Brown. — A. Yes, 1 referred, if you recollect, to the state- luentfl made in this manuscript. ii. 1 mean in your testimony yesterday .' — \. I referred to this inanii- 8cri|)t. (Witness states at this stajre that the remark occiirriiifj in his testi- mony of yesterday, in reference to mackerel coining into tin; bay on the liOth of June, is correct. It api)ears that he had lueviously stated it was a mistake.) (J. The mackerel spawn in deep sea, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir. Wo have, however, no evidence here in America; but in Europe they have been caught far out in the sea. ii. Have you any doubt that is true of the American coast I — A. No; I think they will .spawn anywhere where the water is cold enough. Q. You think they will spawn in the deep sea ? — A. Yes. Q. You were asked by Mr. Thomson to compare the two species ol AWAUh OK rilK KIsllKUY C'(».MMIM,h|ON. .WX) m linl?— A. N<». y to wv f— A. tliiit riipiH'ily. mmI«'iI aitiiinl, «'liiitiK«^ ill III*' 'itiiiiilv not. \\UH a.«* 11 ntltl- rtiinii Itlooilftl. I'jhIi an' >• lie ItliKHl i.H i\u' !)|IIM<>H th«> lly -^ ilso tliseovered e subarctic re il. iiuMuy «locs not ;t, to" the state- 'd to this niami- u\i in his tosti- ) tlui bay on tlic iously stated it .. Yes, sir. "^^'o irope they have coast ?— A. No ; hi enough. ^es. e two species ol ti'Mtinioll> thiit lie Haiti h;id been liet'nie litis tiiluitl.ll — one <'lii<«H ttl' te:4ti' liioM.N lielii^ lli.it llie la|^e piopoitioli, say t wo tliilds, ttl the MliieUeiel ueie eiiuuht within lliiee nilIeK of the Mhtires all thiouuh the;:uir; tho oilier clasH ol witiieHSfs statiiiu I'lat twothitdHor tliiee loui tlis wero t'liilKht outside and the reiiiiiinder iiiside. Voll wennksUed w liieli yoii would eolihldei' the tine lestiniony, (U, perhaps, the ipieslion wonld be pill, wliiili would be the most in aeeoidance with yoiir theory which \ou have slated here. Vmi aiisweied, as I understood, that tlie testi- iiiotiy ol' those who said two tliiids wrie ean;;lil iii>ihore.s of the estuary ot the .Si. I,aw> M'liee. (}, Not iiielndiiiy tin- jlaiiks A. N. (}. 'riieii ytMi didn't mean your answer to apply to the whole m\\l\ Uaiiks, {'My, ami evt i \ t liiiif; .' — A. No. <^). I ihinkit would have been niisiindeistood othei'W ise, 'l'hei|iiestion where t!ie greater part are eau;;ht depends soiiu'what, does it not, upon whether the people use boats or vessels, which tlepeinls up(Ui eoiidilioiis of eoii\eiii(>nee and eeotioinir il eonsideralioiis. Theri* are vaiious eon* siderations whieh may indm. people to llsh, inside lU' outside. l'(>oplu that come in from a distance iiiust come in lai'ue vessels, and would nat- urally lish outside, whereas people that li\e alonj^ the shores would catch Willi boats; ho that, takiiif; the ipH'stioit whether tiie llshiiiK is done in the bay as a whole, if «h'pemls, does it not, upon a \ariety of cireiimstanees '— A. I understood the (piestion to bi^ more partitui- larly with re^fard to the manner in which the mackerel are caught in- shore in the (iulf of St. haw iciice, in c(Hitradistinction to the manner in w'iiieh they are eau;;lit upon the American shore, and I think 1 stated that in the (iulf of St. liawreiice the tendemty of s(;ieiitilie observation wouhl be to show that the yreat«'st portion of the mackerel are caii^'ht inshore, whereas on tim American slioie, owiny' to the temperature of the water, tlie greater portion would be eaiiKht outside. (^. Would be found, ratiier .' — A. Vt's; would be fonii'l. (i. The question as to where they would be ean<,'lit would depend up(»ii 11 variety of (!ircumstaiices such as I have n'ferietl to. Thos«' you don't iiKilude. Vou spoke of w hat was dis(!liarp'd from the mouths of rivers and the dams and factories, wlii(;li prevented the passa<>'e nil the rivers alon^' the Ameri<'an coast of the lish from the sea, whitth yon thought must have tiie elVect of diminishing; the number of tin* eoiumer(;ial lish \vhi(;|i tollowed them, in this (;(>niie(;ti'm you spoke (d' what had been (lone here to remedy su<'h evils; are you aw ire that in New Jlniiland very j;n'at pains have been taken to set nre the passa^ie of the tish up be- yond the dam .' — A. Yes. (}. And did you know that .>>tatutes had been passed, and decisions of Ilie courts j;iveii, coni|ielliiiy even the oldest dams to allow a place Ibr the passage of the lish .' — A. Yes. lly Mr Foster: i). In speaking of codlish I wanted to know if yon were aware that within the last two or tliree years, otf lUoek Island, at the inontii of Lonjj Island Sound, large quantities of cod have been tak<'n in new places, where they were not known to be before, and where they have not been lished for before, through the spring and autumn months .' — A. Up to -hine they are caught, and then in the autuiun. fW'l •434 M* ^m: «T5"I j:!!:,i|1 m :i43« AWARD or TIIK FIMIIKKY COMMIHNION. Q. How (In yoii niTotint (or that f — A. I ilo nuf. I'rort'NMoi \«'iiil| ncc«MititM lor if l),v 11 NiMir nC tin* Am it; ciini'iit imiiiiIiij; hi Iroiii tli<> Nun tiirkft hIidiiIm uimI hiiMithii; iimiitiil Itlork InIiiihI. (). TliiTc U a cniil witvt' ol' watiT lit that particular pniiit .' — A. Vim. Ill tlio iiiuiitli ol'.liiiM' thi<.v ai'«« ilrivfii out l>,v tlM> (hill' Stream. i}. Iliit tli(> iiiarkcit'l arr takrii in Miil»Mlaiitiall,v tlio nuiih^ locality nil tliioii^li tlic Ni'iisoti rioiii early H|iritit; to late in the aiiliiiiiii, are they imt ! — A. I iiiKlerNtaiitl that nil aroiiinl tli«« iiei^hltorhood ol' Itlock Ulaiitl tliey are taken in early spring;, ami that is tlieir t;reat Mpawiiinif Kniiitul. Q. ('mloiilite that the mackerel olV the I'liited .States coast are caii(;ht nearer iiiiliore in tlio MpriiiK ii» made, that the actual tacts will bear out tlini view ? — A. C^iiit*^ irrcspcclivt' ol theory, I JuiIkc .xolely Ironi the various deNcriptioiiM that I have heard that the lisli in the Npriiit; and Tail ai*^ largely inshore, lii the Niimmer it is not ho. That is expressly said Itv IMot'essor N'criill, ii(»t in re^Mid to mackerel particularly, imt as to ail tish, in his claliorate report lor 1S7J as well as in the Anicriiviii .loiiriiiil ol Science lor 1.S7.J. i}. Well, I have seen I'rol'essor X'criiirs report, Imt didn't yoii iimlci- Htaiid that the American skippers have liccii ;>'ettin(; \ery lar^t> lianis ol mackerel in the stimmcr moiitlis as well as in the spring and autumn .'— A. Voii mean away out a muu\ many miles; certainly. i). And (lose in .' — A. 1 don't kno v ul>out ch)se in; but I know tliey Nail •'{0 or U) miicH out and avt them in abundance. Q. There is no (piestiou about that. Don't they also j^et them »pdt«' near inshore .' — A. I think they do in Massaciliusctts Hay and iie.ir Still- wander Hank. i^i. Would they not ;,'et them on the r»;iuks wherever they are, pretty near shine or lar out ? — A. Always on the l»anks in the hx-aliiy ol the Arctic j'lirrent. i}. NVell, now, one or two more i|uestions about thc^ (!od lishery I want to ask you. You spoke of the l-'iench lisliinjj at St. IN'ter's; is not that an uiKu^rtaln llshery, laslint; only a short time .' — A. Ther»» is a very remarkable circumstaii(!e connected with tiie l''reiicli lisliery. Q. What is it ? — A. It has been pointed out in a very elaborate man iier by Admiral ( 'loiu'*. It is this: tiiat for the period of three or four or live years the French lisliery on the (Jrand Hanks is good, and tlicMi decliiiCH, but as soon as it begins to decline the French lisliery on the northeast coast of Newfouinlland begins to bo good, and many of their vessels go there. That in turn will continue good for a perioil of three or four years, and then declines. Meanwhile the Hank llshery is recu- perated. Q. To what do you attribute that, or what do yon infer from it f — A. I Hhonid be sorry to «lraw any spe.v y, Imt iiH to nil ICI'ic'lll .lolM'llill (In't. .voii iiiidci- y l.ii'K'' liiitilH ol iind iiiitiiiiin .'— Hit I know tlicy y;ct tliciii «pi"'' ami lu'.vi" titil' Hu'y tiro, pretty e loealiiy ot tin' i\ nwlHMy I want er's; is lutt tiiat riiere is a very ery. eliibonito iimn- three or four or good, and tlieii li llsliery on the d many of tlieir period of three i llshory is reen- ter from it ? — A. , {feneral state- very much upon iperatnro of the it in this i)aper. Banks, some of not big enough in that way. i). Well, how iiiiiny riitikN do you know lietween the Kouth t'oiiNt of AnlieoMti, and from there down to I'riiiee lOdwartI Ulitnd f^A. In the lliMt plaett then* li the Mixty fiitlioiii line of NonndliitiN, and upon that there are neveral ItankN. (j. ItertUM a iniip attaehed to the lliitisli CaNe (hainliiii; map to wit- neHK); ean yon tell me by whom it waM made.'— A. No. if. Now, there iiiy, Orphan, and MJMeou ltank.s, and ytw know where l-'iMlieiiiiatrs Itaiik U. It is not down here. 'I'likiiig the Maudaleiis an a eeiiter, it appears by the map that tlM>ie In excellent llMhing all iiionnd that lecion. W«t have heard of the llHherles on Itindley, Orphan, and MiHeon Itaiiks, and yon liavi* .stated that lliadley (tank parti<-iilaily was a ^leat r4pa\\nin({- ground lor maekerel. Now, was I not pretty near ii|;lii in Na.Mii;; that after ytm get down a little way beyond Anticor^ti the body ol the gull is a Neries of llanks If — A. It ix nearly all llat. Ho it is shown on .\dtiilral Jlaylleld's chart. The Nonnding.H vary Iroiii (!() fathoms npwaitl. <^. 1 must have got it out of your books, that >tatemenr that there was a number of b.mks so small that tlii'y did not get down on the iiiapH f — A. I have no tlonbt that statement is perfectly true, that tlieru are a great many Hanks that are not on the maps; Imt there are vast iiinltitudeH (HI the coast of Nova Scotia. It was in icleietice to that, I think, that I spoke. i). Whenever you find these Hanks joii i-xpect to lltid mackerel ♦ — A. We sluHild think so. (j. Whether these Hanks are situated, as some of them are, 'J.'» or '.\0 miles fnHii the shore, or whether they ar«' pretty near in .' — A. 1 should think that made no din'er(>n(;e at all. i). You don't think there are particular spawning grounds ibr mack* erel f — A. It depends up(Hi the temperature. if. Wherever tln^ llsli happens to be when it is under the necessity of spawning, then it spawns just as an animal delivers its young .' — A. V«'s. if. Now, the mackerel do spawn asvay down south as far as ('aiie llatteras on the Ameriean (!oast ? — A. I am not aware of it. Q. Ilow far south do y(Hi think is tli<^ most southern point where they Kpawn on the iVni<>ri(;aii <'oiist .' — A. I don't know ; 1 never heard of any south of IMoek Island. I (;an easily eoiic(>ive that it is not impossible where the Areti(! current surges .ip under the (Jiilf Stream that they should spawn, but 1 have never heard of any loe.ility south ot IMoek Island. (}. I was under the impression that we had smne evidence of it a good way furtlu^r S(Mitli, but perhaps nut. Now, yon spoke of a spring fishery tor ma(;kerel in the gulf w liieli is not made use of. I would like to know liow early ycm think macki'iel <;ould be taki'ii in the gulf that would l»o more than number three comnu'rcially ? — A. I . Well, that would not be until some twenty l)ear iminediately aft<'r spawning on Hradley or on any of llie-ut there is an abnndanci^ of earlier and poor<'r niaekerel which anybody ini^ht j^et '. — A. A jrreat abundance. I). J)o you know whether, at that tinu', they take the hook readily .'— A. I don't know about that. (f. That may be oiu< reason why they have not heretofore been pur sued'/— A. They have cauj;lit them in seiiu's. Q. I know, but there are no Americans hero to catch them, ami the pi'ovincial (ishermen don't use seines? — A. I thiid\ theie is a record of an American vessel catching them with seines. Q. You reffard the imu;kerel tishitijj; of the provincial lishermen a-; undeveloped '! — A. V<'s. Q. The lish are there to be caught, ami what the jieople need is ves- sels ami enterprise, skill, and industry to i)ursue them ? — A. \\ ell, I woidd m)t {?() (piite as far as that. (}. What do they need? — A. In the first place, I thirds they need a little {iuidance and instriuition. They n^'ed also co-oi»erative combina- tion, and also capital. ii. Now, would m)t those pass under the terms "capital and skill" of my rpiestion? However, if they know how to do it, and could get money to build vessels, you thiidc they could catch larj^e quantities of mackerel early in the season? — A. If they could get money to build vessels. (}. Is there any i)resent prospect of that industry devolo[)'nj' ? — A. I think tlieie is. (i. Has there been anythiufj^ done in that diiection '! — A. I am not aware of it on the coast of Prince Edward Is'aud ; I am aware ot it on the coast of Newfoundland ; 1 am personall,\ aware of a good deal hav inp been done on the coast of Newfoundland. (i,. Not for mackerel i — .V. Not necessarily. ii. You refer to the bounties they have offered? — A. No; to the co- operative system being beneti(;iid. Q. ilut is there in the i)rovinces any tendency to engage at the pres- ent time in vessel-Hshing for nu\ckerel ? — A. 1 am not aware; 1 do not know. Q. There were vessels fishing a numb.'r (jf years ago her<», but it died out ? — A. The mackerel lisheiy of Nova Scotia is enormous. (i. Vessels ? — A. 1 (tan't say so much for vessids. Q. It is vessel-fishing I am asking about, because you have spoken of the necessity of luusuing it in sea-going boats. You are not awaic that there was a tk'et of vcnscIs iiere that lias disai/peared ? — A. No. (}. Do you know the history of a comi)aiiy formed in Halifax for that purjjose which has sim^e disappeared ? — A. No; 1 never heard ot it. i-i. I notice here in your meuKuandii'n a rejiort which is from the Dr- l^artment of Agriculture, by J. C Tache, in which he undertakes to give the proportion of the catch from each province ? — A. Yes, (>>. He giv<'s the catch (>f cod, haddock, herring, and mackerel. Do you know whei'ier the iigures are according to your views ? He puts s ws AWARD OF THK FISlfKWY COMMISSIOX. 34;]^ bly hitoic tliii! . le 8Uinmcr li»h- >[t('iir altout tlic lu'ir iippi'iiraiK't' r llic sfcoiul ap- miickcn-l wliicli linok voadily .'— tofore lu'tMi pur h them, uml tlic 'le is it ix'cord ot iiial fislu'ViiuMJ a< i'oph- in'cd is vcs- ,,,11?— A. Well, 1 liiiik tliev need a >erative »',ou»i)ii»a- »ital and skill" of t, and could gvt rge qnaiititieis of : money to buiUl ovelop'n^' ; — A. I 11 .'—A. I am not m aware of it on a ^'ood deal hav- ^. No; to the (!o- ffixae at the pros aware; 1 do not liere, but it died uious. sou have spoken ou are not awan* iird ?— A. No. llalilax for that ver heard of it. ch is fioni the 1)<- mdertakes to ^ivo Yes. nd mackerel. J)i' views? He puts down Quebec as takin;? seven per cent, ol' the mackerel. Nova Scotia su ptT cent., New Ibuiiswick ."> |»cr cent., and Prince Ivhviird l>*land ten per cent. Now, where olV tlu' const of Nova Sciotia would thcie Iwi that tpiantity taken; 80 per (Mint, is the estin»il«i on an averufje catch of ir.(MMH) barrels a year, in is;,"., it was rjfJ.niMl; and in 1S7|, HiJ,(i(K). 1 think a fair avcraf;*' would be l."i(>,(l(Mi itarrcls. Now, so p»T cent, or that is taken oil' Nova Sc(ttia. Whereabouts is it taken .' — .V. it is all around (he coast of Nova Scotia and ( 'ape I'reton. The nia(k"iel iVc- qucnlly strike the coast of Nova Scotia for 10(» miles in one ni;;ht. if. These blue nuirks on the chart are intended to show the ijeneral ccMitsc of the mackerel in pursuit of food. 'I'liey are not always partic- ular to stay out nH)re than three miles or to conic, in within thi'ce miles? They vary t — A. Ves. (}. Weil, 1 was very much siirprise<| to liiid SO |)er cent. . Can it be. Yon think it is ri^ht ? — A. There is a simple explana- tion. They strike the hea or ISOf, I tbiidv two or three years. I have seen a very larye number of vessels there. (.). 'J'here is no doul>t that at that time there were a ffood many that went t ) Bay Chaleuis, but of late years do you understand there has 'jcen many — for the last four or live years ? — A. 1 don't know. i}. Yon omitted on" thin;jt that would be necessary to develop the ti.sh- injf industry ot the province here, 1 think. What other things are there that occur to you as likely to promote the; lishiny- interests of the iisher- men in the provinces .' — A. Tiiere are several, 1 thin;-; that is rather too wide a field Q. They oufiuv to have- a maiket, certainly .' — A. F think they ought to have a market, certainly. Mr. i>ANA. I wish to explain my ij^norance of that oook (Professor Hind's bo(»k on the lishery clauses of the Washins.'ton Tres-ry.) You state that half a dozen copies were sent to the Waverly House. They ; wiuc not sent to the American counsel .' I Wir>;ES8. No. Mr. DouTitK That book is not filed here as part of your evidence. ; Therefore I do nut see that this is a matter for investipitiou, I Mv. Dana. Do you object to my putting the q-iestiou .'— 1. If you ob- \ it'ct 1 will not put it. 1 , . I :\'^i 3440 AWARD OP THE FISHERY COMMISSION. H Vi\ f t! : Mr. DorxRE proposes to ask witness at wbo^io rerei)an'(l tlie book. Mr. Dana. If tl>e suhjoct is to be dropped, that is one thing, but I do not think you sliouhl ask me to drop it and take it up yourseit. Mr. JJoUTiiE. C», go on. Mr. Dana. Do you wish the subjeet dropped? Mr. DouTRE. No, we have notliing to conceal. Mr. Dana. The unprinted one, the manuscript, I never saw until hist niglit. Witness. That is a continuation of the ])resent one. Mr. Weatueuhe observes tiuit if the counsel for the United States had the nianuscriiit book they were better olf than the counsel for Jk'i Britannic Majesty, lie had not seen it at all. Hon. Mr. JvELLOOa. What is to be the use of this book ? I don't un- derstand. Mr. J)ouTUE. It was for our own nse in examining the witness. Hon. Mr. KELLOcut. I only want to know whttiifi u is to be used by the board or not. Mr. DoUTRE. No, not as part of the e\ deuce. Mr. Dana. 1 hope w«' have not bt^en gu'lty of any mistake. The first part caiue here only yesterday, anil Mr. Foster got it f'om Mu H-.tisb Agent. Mr. DouTRE. Several coi)ies were given to I'nrfessor Baird. Mr. Dana. Not until after he had given his evidence. By I\Ir. Trescot : Q. AVith regard to the theory of this report, a great por! ion ui vhich we have read with a great deal of interest, as I understand, the ^m rport is that the advance in the study of ocean physics has been such thiit cetrain laws have been discovered, the application of which, like other scieutitic laws, will develop a large fishing industry if properly applied ? — A. Certainly, Q. You think that promise of increase in the extension of the fisheries ought to be taken into accouut in estimfiting their value ? — A. Yes. Q. Has the discovery of ti.ese la\>s advanced far enough to be prac- tically applied within tlie next two or three years ? — A. Certainly. They are already practically applied in Norway and by Q. Taking the habits of the ti^'h into c(>:isideration, the orographic out line of tlie coast, the oi)eration of the Arctic (uurent and the Gulf Stream, the variation of the zone teinperatr.ie, together with one or two otiiei things, the winds and tides; all those considerations govern the question where the mackerel will be found. Now, is your knowledge of that habi sufliciently (!ertain to enable j'ou to say, at any given moment, that the mackerel will be there at such and such a time, on such and such, a line of coast : — A. Certainly not. P.iit there is now being instituted, under the auspices of the 'Jiiited States Government, a series of marine obsei vations, especially under the direction of the Coast Survey, and all ni those will iiass through the hands of Professor Baird. Those are for the purpose of taking the temperature, not only at tlie surface but at certain depths below. IJut nothing has been done yet. Q. That being the case, and you having admitted the American fisher men under the treaty of 1871, so as to make this practically one continii oils line of fisheries dependent on each other, don't you think a systeicF' that would end by putting the whole thing under one joint commissi()i|j, would be a great deal better than auy award of any kind i — A. I a not capable of answering tlx; question so far as the award is concerned but so far as the development of the fisheries is concerned it would bt au immense advantage, there is no doubt. ID :od (!h iliC iol m N. lest he i>rei'ii"''l 10 thing, but I do yoursoU. ,'or saw until hist the United States e counsel for Jiei lOok ? I (I'^u't un- tli« witness. \\ is to be used by AWAK'K OK THE FISIIKHY COMMISSION. ;544l liv .Mr. J)()Utie (i>. 1 simply wish to ask you a (pu'stion to brin;-' out a full oxi>hiiiation ill ivjiai'tl ot'tiiis liook — A. 1 have ;;iv('n every cxphiiiat'oii. i). Tlie ra('ti(;al knowledge I'oi' its own gnidiince .nid reciiu'sted you to prepiire tills inlorin itioii .' — A. I presume so, l)ut tliis niiiiiusiuipl Itook wliicli I iiavt- prepared was pre- |iare«l espeeially for my own evidence. (i. AViien were you re(pu»sted by the jjovernment to devote yourself to this business ! — A. Well, I was r«'(|iiestiMl in the lirst week In May. i received a telegram at St. .lolin's, Newtonndland. (). You were re(pu'sted by tiie Mini.ster ol Marino and Fisheries to go to Ottawa ? — A. Yes, and provided that the Newfotiiidlaiid (iovernintMit woidd agree tliat I siiould put off the '.expedition to tiie Labrador until next ye-.u' 1 consented to go. 1 8id)mitted tlie itviiU'st to tiie Govern ment of Newfoundland, made through tlie Minister of .Marine and I'^ish- cries, and they agreetl in tiui most c(U' .tisli sor Baird. ice. )or!iuii o>' .vhich we , the ^*i! part is that Bbthi'^tcetraiulaws ther scioutitic laws, [ed ?— A. Certainly, siou of the fisheries alue ?— A. Yes. enough to be prac- L. Certainly. They the orographic out nd the Gulf Stream. 1 one or two otiiei ■overu the question kvledge of that habit n nioinent, that tho nch aiul such, a lint instituted, under ■les of uKirine obser Survey, and all of , Tho.se are for tlie rl'ace but at certain be American fisher 3tically one continii you think a systeui le joint couiniissio uy liii'd . A. ' mjuooiing snow useir, ^ _ --. - award is eo"^'^^''^! like mackerel before spawning; they also appear to school at the begin- icerued It would oifjji^ ^j. p,^p,^ ^j^^jj. ^g.^g^jj_ . . . ■ be seiued. 21G F liieparation of this report oil the subject generally; siiuje tli;»t time to till- present moment. By ITon. Mr. Kellogg : Q. Tliere is one point in yourevideiuie with regard to layers of waters iiiid the temperature of the water, and 1 understand you to s ly that the colder layer would come to the surface. Why would the colder layer come to tiie top. althongli it is of greater density ? — A. In rushing over the Banks the i;old water, which s at thj bottom, forces the warm water up and it Hows out on eitiier side. i). You don't approve very much of the theory of the mackerel mi- ffrating. Probably you don't believe in it? You think tliey go into the iiuid and hibernate ? — A. In the mud and sand. (J. Well, to what extent do you believe they do so ;' Is that the way tbe great part of the mackend dispose of themselves in the winter .' — A. I think that is so, not only with the .liackerel but with a number of other fish. (),. Well, does that account for the disappearanci^ of the m ickerel dur- ing the winter to any considerable extent ' — A. Yes. Q, They go to the bot'om or into the sand ? — A. i\\s. I (}. Wnil. to what <'\r.eut do you think they do it ?— A. 1 think they all liibernate jnst the ame as the sturgeon in fresh water ; and on the United States coast, the tautog, tlie scup, and other lish liil)ernate. Q. How far do yon think they go out? What number of fathoms to got into the mucl ? — A. It d'^pends entirely on the ice. They always ippear to select tho.se spots where the saltw iter ' •('■ «iiall not be drifted II, so that they will not be exposed to the (jold c • i- ioiii the salt ice as it melts in the spring. Q. Where does the American coast mackerel gi) ' lie Arctic waters there very miujh ? — A. O, yes ; the Aii-tU; current is elt in winter nearly as far as Cape llatteras. (}. You spoke of the cod schooling. I had not understood that the :od schooled in the way that the mackerel schooled. How does the icbooling show itself, in the .siinie 'vay as the mackerel i — A. Cod school ling; they also appear to school at the begin- It is the schooling habit whiidi enables them t droi)ping down Tlun- don't have •I *tJ-1 !!•! ; ! ! i. .... '■'r'H '^'i|i \l I. 442 AWARD OF THK FISIIKI.'V f'OMMls.SION. The followiii;; tiilih's iiio tlic liihlcH iclcni'd to in the cn idciK^c of I'l, IV.ssor lliiid No. 1. Slntinll(.s of the rWii(h Jinhif}/ iin ihv llroinl /iuiihx, itnd llir nniilicaiil niaxt of S'rirj'iiiiinl. laud dufDiij Kiiiv(nx'ni inyuiiln fvitiii l-'Jtl li> l-')!). IfJii ((I Hit M\ fsliips, lO.ll.'i liislicriiini wiilni. 1' I- I'J to l-'l" Il'^'.l uliips, I I,:)?.-* tisliclllirll Hili III. I''r(nii l'*1-' to 1 -.">() :(l(i HliipH, 1 l,(i| Mislurmi'ii Niii ridiii iPi'il to l^Tid It-"!' .ships, ll.lilrt lislK'iiiicii Siiild '» Le riht lie Terrc .Vtwav," Vol. /, p, lili. No. II. SlaliHliin (if thi I'lenakjhhirij itn the (Ircal litinht of Xtwfoiiiiilldiiil uinl mi the Xniili, L'otlHt, Yonrs. NumliiTdr ■N'liriilii HlllpH. IHIU). IHIil. IHHU. I8IM. IHIi.'i iMili 1867 a,i(i ■j:l!i lt(0 1H5 1!I7 II. ml 111,1. 7. hi: (■■/..■ I'iMc (Ir Tine \viii;'" Vol, I, |iii;;r -jr,.) No. III. SlatiKtica of llic ricncli JinhcrivH on the northtusl count of .\iiifouiidl(iiid,fioiit Capt Am// to Cape A7. ■hhii. Yi'urs. 18B0 . iHlil . IHi-i. ICtill . 1 80 1 . IHti.") 18fi(i . IHG7. i ', a c_ ^ c; •^ < y, ns 6,180 (15 «, n.-.s l-i !), M.i Hi .'), 4!t:i :>n ;), 3(14 ."if) 3, 118 ,57 a, 7.-1S a.5 a, 0(18 i"' =t: -= a o « I'iBt 17 17 ( "Le rUote de Terre Xmwe," Vol. II, piige liltU.j No. IV. StafMirs of the French bank-finhevy on the (licat Jlaiiks of Xcnfoniidlnnd fniiv l-^dd In I Haiik lisliiiv, : Hank Hslinv, Total. Viiai'.s. «it (li.Miii... ^,11 ,„>rtli(iiMr wlihciit ihy- Mwiiulon. |,„„„,iai.a. Ships. ' Mtn. Kbipg. Men. gliips. I ^leu. Sliip.i. I-tiO IHtil. i8t!a I'fil. lH(i4. IHIifi. 18117. (W a, 7:i.'i 1 til a, .'i.'iM a 48 1,5li 7 « 1..-.15 6 47 1, «40 17 51 i 1, 7(il 17 122 ; !):{ I !P3 ! 00 874 151 I 360 I 384 I 51 .'Ml 41 4t 46 55 U4 l.OIfi 1,178 834 8t!(i !>8(i ,, 1,(148 1,3<«) ia;( laa ua 87 01 i(i:i ij" 137 llf III SI at w ■ to ( 'Lt lilote tie Tcrre Xeiire," Vol. 1, piififl a i.) » cvitUMico of I'lM ant roaxt of S<:irf'"in.l li. 1,11.") liNhcinifll Hllilnl. ,';!7,-i lislicniK'n .slnllll^ ,01 I lUlllTIIH'll HUilol- ;.Urt lisliciiut'ii siiil'ii- 11/ Kiid im tli<' Siiflliiw iNmnbiTiil' Niiiiili'i' AWAKI> OF Tin: FIMHKUV COMMI.SHION. No. V. sliitintivH 0/ tliv I'niirli JixhcriiH in Ihv liiil/oj' SI, Luimiue, YoaiH. 344;; IHIIO Hfil I -(ill , I hi; I IHl.-i l-i:(i 1-117 f a t 1. - 3 "^1 ■.£ a Is a c /< '"^ ..__ W 1,080 88 l.OHH 34 i,:ir.4 ;«i I.M'.I III i,:i!t!i «; i.yoii 88 i,(m:i 80 ^.j.j Tl)t> IhI.iimIs (.(• SI. I'iiiii. iiinl Mli|iii'liiii Hi'iiil tdtlir Wi'Hl ( iinNt. aliiiut l.'i sc'liooiii'i's iiiiiMiircl \>\ I'J llirii. 'I'lii'v ill.x|iill('li aUci into tlii> ^inll'iilioii't r,'(l to liiii II to lilMi I'niiii (KP to H(l (loiys lo ll.sli mImiiiI ('ml Kov 1111(1 llt'cl IsI.iikI. •jrii) 11,111 '.(."iri 111,'.!'" 8:iM 1(1, ||- 8;iii 11, II- 180 7, IV 18ft 7,1111 1117 7.0:1 108 (i, 'K Ihi 11(1, from Cupi Moni,. 3 3 S ■" = •55 t^ 1— ' 3 . 11-5 »| •=-3-^£§ 1 •/. 0,180 4 ■A fi, KiB !), 5l);i .'), 4!i;i ;i -.1, a(i4 7 •,i, 118 6 8, 7.-.H 17 8, 0(i« 17 ll.) wiiiii'iii ilfy- Tutal liips. M.-u. Shilis. I Mf| "il l,01('> -,- ! 1, 1-8 ; ; t-.H II .-(Ki ■l(i !)8() nri 1,(I4H (14 1 'Jtltl (iO i,4»*; 18;) 3. 188 ;t, 1)8 87 •J. 1)1 •I ion ,1 18- ii i;n ■J ("ii- rlldir 'll' Ti'.rrf \eiii-f.,'' Vol. 1, pa);n 84(i.l Affiilni'il.s rctiil in rebuttal hi/ Mr. Wliilciniij. No. 1. NKWFOrNDLANl). ISainf 'John's, to icit : Tlioiniis IJiiinsoy, iijicil tliirty yiMis, tislicnuiiii, losidiiio- at Saint .loliii'.s, iitbivsiiid, inaketli oath iiml saitli : DopoiKMit is well a(!(|iiaiiittMl with the fisluM'ios of NewfoiiiuUiUid, iiiid is intimately aciinaiiited witli tlie herriiiff tisiiery. Deponent, hist .siiriiif,', .saw tliiee United States iKM-rinj; seines n.seil by American (isliermen in *' barrinjif herrinjjfs " at Long Harbor in Fortune I5ay, and knows that hirge (inantities of hei- riiif^s were " barred" by tlicse seines and taken out afterwards by usinjj their small seines, which tliese United States lisliermeii c.iine down pre- pared witii. Deponent knows that United States fishermen are in tiie habit of using their own .seines to inclose herrings on our coasts, and of employ- ing British fishermen to assist in hauling these seines. Deponent knows of one instance in which United States fishermen brought down a large herring seine completely fitted out with seine boat and all necessary gear, which they sold to a person named Fiander, at English Harltor, in Fortune Hay. Deponent further has heard and believes tliat another such seine w;is sold by United States fishermen to one Burke, at St. .lacques, in Fortune Bay, and in both cases the value of such seines was to be paid for by supplying these United States fishermen witii herrings at nominal price.<, hauled by tliesi' .seines, the crews working the same lieing composed almost wholly of Ameiican fishermen. Deponent fur- ther says that he knows of one instaiuui that happened last spring, in wliich a cargo of fresh herrings was iiaiiled by a United Stales crew and vessel in Fortune Bay, aforesaid, and sold at St. IMerre as bait for Frencli fisliernien ; and that it has been stated — and as deponent believes tiuly stated — otiier [Tnired States fisliernien did the same thing. De- jpoiient has been iiifoiined that United States fishermen intend (irovid- jiiig themselves with larger seines than those now used by them, (which [are much larger tlian tliose by XiMvfoundlaiid fislii-r iicn) and with lthe.se .'3eines to engage largely in catching b.iit on Newfoundland s bores ito sup[>ly French fishermen at St. Pierre. THOMAS IIUMSEY. >.) 1 ) ■•ll •1 1 1: '' •■'•>, 1 ,:i3:| I 1! ^444 AWAUn OF THE FISHEWY COMMISSION. Sworn bi'lore me at 8t. .Fohn's, afoicsaii', tliis IMIi day of Octolicr. A. I). 1.S77. J>. W. PKOWSK, Stipnidiary Mni/intiatc, St, Jitltn's, ycn'/onnillainl. NEWFOUNDI.AM), Ccnlnd District, St.'/olin's, to irit : .lolin KmiiMi'y, of Kortuiie Harbour, in Fortune Hay, NewfoundlarMl. niaketli oatli and .saitli : 1 have lieard tlie rore;;oiti^' de|)ositJon of iii.v brotlier, Thomas Iliimsey, lead over. It is correct and true in every particuhir. The name of one of tlu^ American captaiiiH is .Jacobs. He formerl\ lived in (ireen Itay, N<-wfoundhiiul. I cannot remember the name ol tlio United States schooner that he comujanded. I have biHMi engajicd f<)ur!oin years in tlio iierrinjj tlshcry in Kortuiif Bay. I have been lishiuij for thirty years in Newfoundland. JOHN + IHJMSKY. iiiiii'k. Sworn before me at St. .lohn's, NewfouiuUaiid, tins !>th dav of Ootd ber, A. 1). 1877. D. W. IMJOWSK, Stipendiary May i,st rate, St. f7o/i/i'«, Nc(rJ'onti(Han2 years, resi<':::g at Burin, Newfoundlam iuaketh oath and saith : 1 was present when Robert Inkpen made the above statement, whic T know to be true in all particulars JOHN MITCHELL. N. (lay of OctolMT. 1»K()\VSK, Sen'lonuillumL ,•, NewroiiiMllaiiil, iU'position of luv 1(1 triu^ in evoiy l)s. lie foniicilv her tlie nanio oi .sliory ill Fortune (Hand. his i 4- i{umsi<:y. Ill ark. lerinen Ironi these Ats, and is also well lited States vessels ants are found in i that United States it spring in haidin )ring in contraven ing herrings before bout eight hundredj and there sold to n\G of these United ney paid by Auieri »1 tisheries and tisli pronouncing theii iEllT INKi'EN. s 26th day of Octo r. PEOWSE, AWAKD OF THE FISIIKRY COMMI.SSION. M\r^ Sworn befon^ nic, at St. .lohn's, Newfoundland, this LMIth day of Octo- b(T, A. D. 1S77. D. W. Ph'OWSE, tStipcndim'!/ Maf/istntle, St, ./o/uj'.v, \t irJinimlUtntl, I, Krcdcric 15. T. (!arter, a notary jyublic, duly admitted and sworn, jtracticing at St. .lohn's, Ncwioundland, do lieichy testify that 1). VV. I'l'owse, who has siibscrilxsl iiis name to the Jnrat of tin^ atlidavit of Robert Inkpen and of .lohn Mitcla^ll, on the third page of this sluM't of paper, is one of Her Majesty's Justices of the peac(^ for tlu^ island of New- foundland ; tliat the signatun* "• D. W. I'rowse, stipendiary niagistrato, St. .John's, Newfoundland," is the true handwriting of the said Justice, and that full faith and credit ought to be giv(>n thereto in (U)urt and thereout. In testimony whereof I have allixed my notarial seal and subscrilio I iiiV name this Jfth dav of October, A. D. 1877. (L. .s.) " EliEDEKIC 11. T. CAIITEK, Xotary I'ubliv. No. ;5. Stephen I'ower, aged .'{S years, trader ami tisherman, residing at riacentia, Newfoundland, uiaketh oath and saith : I am practically ac(|uainte(l with the lisheiies of this country, having t'ollowe(l the saute sin(;e I was 14 years of age. 1 have been engaged by American fishermen in procuring bait in IMacentia Hay. I found the seine and the Americans supplied the crew, and for my .services as pilot, hire of seine, and my own aid in working the .seine with the American (new I was paid twenty-seven dollars in May last by (Japtain Hickman, of the American schooner I. S. (i lover. 1 am well aware tliat American fishermen do haul bait for themselves, and 1 am well informed that they brought down tour large seines this year to Fortune Bay, which were worked exclusively for their purposes and advantages. Such seines were very much larger than those used by our own people, and are destructive to the herring fishery. These seines succeded in pro- curing large (piantities of herrings earlier than the local seines, owing to their great length and depth ; one of them 1 heard barreled upwards of (4,000) four thousand barrels of herring at one time. The operations of such large seines are highly injurious to IW fisheries. STEPHEN POWER. Sworn before me, at St. .Tohn's, Newfoundland, the 12th daj' of Octo- ber, A. I). 1877, W. .1. S. DONNELLY, JiiNtlce of the Vvine for the Island of Xenfoundlaml. I, Frederic B. T. Carter, a notary public, duly admitted and sworn, practicing at John's, Newfoundland, do hereby certify that VV. ,1. S. Donnelly, who has subscribed his name to the Jurat of the aflidavit of Stephen Power, (»ii the second page ot this sluM^t of paper, is one of Iter Majesty's justices of the peace for tlie island of Newibundland; that the signature, " W. J. S. Donnelly, justi(;eof the pea(H' for the island of New- r |faith and credit ought to be given thereto in court and thereout. In testimony whereof I have atlixed my notarial seal and subscribed ,]S'eafonndland. |toundland," is the true handwriting of the said Justice, and tiiatfull iu, Newfoundlamf ve statement, whiclj UN MITCHELL. Iniy name, this 24th dav of Octolter, A. 1). 1877, (L. S.) F. P.. T. CAUTF-U, Notary I'uhlU ](i!ii % i'i«( 1 111 'Hit!-;'] V f>i> ' '■ 1 ' . .it % :■■«.(. 1446 AWAKI) OK Tin; FIHIIKHV COMMIHSION', 1. Dy Sti'|)li('ii I'liiiiilcr, of CooiiiliM Cove. I icsidc ut (Nioiiilis <'u\c, iMiitmin Hiiy. I wiiM «'iiKii;,'<'< oii'^ of tlic crew who lianlcd licirin^' with it. None of tlid Clews of I'nitcd States vessels were coneeiiied or eiii|>loy(Ml in the iiHO of said seine; we Imd it from ('aptain l)ea;;le on condition of oin selling to liiin all tlu^ lierrin;; which should Ite hiinled with it. Wf liaiile(l ahonl SIIO barrels, which \\v sold to him. We hauled them al 1.1 tlu^ 'I' ii(;ii. iJliiMiel riuiKU' .^.,.x. ..,,.,.... .......... .>ou;,dit it from him alterwards. I saw \h^ (irew of I'liited States vessel NVildllre ('iij,M;;cd haiilinjj herrinj; al .'abU^ IWsudi about liist of .laniiary last. The captain (d said vessel was with them; tlu^ seine vessel, ami was maiia;;(>(l entirely by crews ot lJnile(| States vessels with the excep tioii of oiK^ man, ISond, whom I saw with them. He, lioiid, was to re vxHVif one share only (/. t'., oik! man's share). They inclosed that day about .'{(to barrels herriiif;; they were not, however, all saved, as a ;;alc of wind (;am(^ on and tlu^ sein(; l)urst ; I believe over half ut' tlx^ herrin<; W'er(^ thus lost, ('aptain ('uiinin;(ham, master of said v(>ssel, brought tim pursolines of the seine with him. The crews of Tiiited States vessels use those purse-lines when th(\v haul herrinj,'; we Hiitish tlshciineii never use, them. 1 heard Captain Deaj^le, of C^nited States schooner Edwin or Eben I'arsons; (-aptain ('harles l^ee, of Cnited States schooner , of Cllou(!ester; and (Japtaiu (5uuninj;ham, of United States schooner Wildlire, say, that they would have whatever herrinj^s they wanted witli their own crews and seines if tiieir crews were (piite willing to do so. STKIMIEX + FIANDKi;. mink. Taken and sworn Ijcfore me at Coombs Cove, the Kith dav of October, 1877. rillLIP liOlJKIlT, J. /'. • No. 5. W !l l»y riiilip Thornhill, of Anderson Cove. I reside at Ander.son Cove, Long Harbor. 1 was at Anderson Cove when Cai)taiu Allen, of the J»onan/.a, United States vessel, arrived from head of Fortune May, in June, 1870, where, I understood from crew of said vessel and others, she had hauled a large (piantity of herring. 1 believe the hauling of the herring was done entirely by the crew of said vessel ; there was one or two Briti.sh fishermen ou board, but 1 understood they liad no share in the seine. The seine and skill they used belonged to the vessel. I saw the crew of said vessel engaged hauling or trying to haul herring at Auderson Cove in -luiu', 187(5. The men employed at it were thos(^ of the vessel. 1 think they hauled some at Anderson (3ove and salted them ou board. I believe the seine and skiff was taken back by said vessel. rillLIP + TIIOIINUILL. inaik. Taken aud sworn biTore me at Harbor Breton the 10th October, 1877. rniLIl' 1J015ERT, J. i'. UnomliH (\>Vf, ell ln'iriiiu rn of oin 1 with it. W'- liiuiU'd tlicni 111 rwiiids. I .Hiiw iliiij; licnintr :ii of siiid vi'sscl I tlu' vessel, iiinl Willi tlie exeep '.Olid, was lo re 'losed lliat day 4aved, as a ;iale f of the heiriii;; vessel, hiou^jht d States ve.ssels ■itlsli llslinineii Statt's sehooner States schooner I" United States r lieiiinns tln'v ere quite willing f FIANDKlt. rk. day of October, oi'.KiiT, -y. /'. Aiidei'.son Cove, ill Allen, of the I"\)rtuno r.ay, in and others, she hanlin;;' of the thero was one or luul no share in o the vessel. I '• to haul herring at it were those Cove and salted Leu back by said illOUNUILL. ith October, 1877. lOlJEllT, J. P. AW AIM) 0^' I UK I'l.SIIKKY COMMISHIOV. No. (I. ;;U7 r>\ (leorue !it»se, of .leisey Harbor. I now reside at .leisey ll.irlior, lortnne Hay. In .lime, l.s7)l, Captain .Mien, of I'nited Stales s«'hiion<>r llonan/a, airi\e he wanted t(» haul about l,l(lay ; that he had a lierriii;; seine and skill on board of his \essel, and I'Nci'ythiii;; else necessary for hanlin;;, and asUed me to ^o with him as master of his seine, ami that he would ;;ive im^ twenty cents per barrel lor every barrel of herrin;>' that was hauled. I a;;reed, and my son .lohii ,iiiil I went on b(»ard at once. We left and sailetl tor iinun Harbor, Init (lid not haul any herriny: there; fioin them-e we sailed for head ol I"'or lane Hay, where we hauled about KM> barrt'ls, which were salted on l.oard the vj'.ssel. 'I'he seine, sUilV, ami crew bclon^cfl to kh<> vessel, and, as I have said, I was simply en;ja;;ed as master of the seine. Tiit^ men employed haiiliii;; the herriii;; all belonged to tlie said vessel. After the Kill barrels heriint; w*>re salted (Ui itoard we returned to I.oik; llarboi' in her. We (/. r., the «'i'ew of vessel and myself helpintj them) liied to haul herriii}; tlieic, but did not succieed. I left the vessel there and returned home. Captain Alien, the master «)f said vessel, paid im^ lor my setviees the sum of ei};hly dollai's ; my son received noliiiiij;. I heard aflenvurds that he t;ot at Lon;,' Harbor after I left about 1,(I(I0 barrels, but cannot tell if he liauled them all or if he hanleil any. He lold me he intended pntliii;; up the herrin<; at (iloncester and icsliip- iiiiiir tliiiiii i*Mi' Siw'iiili.ii |iinr, 11 iiodiry t>iil>ll<- ddly iitlinitliMl uiitt mwoiii. |U'.ii'lioiiiu )tt St. .loliti's, NinvliMiiitlliinil, «l<) lit>icl*\ (■•'itilv tliiit 'Mlfiii\ Jli'iiiiiil," w III) has MiilMciiltcit liJN iiittiM' '* II. Ufiioiil', il. I'., tor NfW IoiiihI liiiMJ," to ttio |iiiiil of tliiMillliliivil of Miiiii'isi |>aur ot til is slicrt of pa per, is tlui proprr iiaiiilwntiiit; of saitl llt-iny Kr lioiit, oiii> ot Ih'i MajcNtv's jiistii'CN of till' p*'ar«> tor NtnvfoiiiiillaiHl, iifott' Naiil, mill that tiill taitli ami cicilit hIioiiIiI ln> (;i\-fii to Ins tuMs In .sani i^apai'itv as \\<>|| in court as thi'icoii. In tcstinioiiv whi'i'nif I have altlxnl my liainl ami seal of olllcc ami 8Ul)ti»;rilu'il mv ii.iiiu', this '_'Olli tlav of Octolicr, .\. I>. I.S77. [L. M.| KiMJ). n. T. <:akti:i{, .Vl;^»»7/ I'lihlir, No. M. III |! I: I SOI TIII'.HN iMsllJIi T, Nr.WrifUNIH.ANK, I'larcntid, lo irif : lliiiiiphry Sullivan, of IMaitontiii afoicsaid, llshormaii, pcisonally ap I»c:u«mI Ik'Ioi*' iih', Thoina.s U'l{t'illy,('s(|., onn ol lli'i' MaJt'Mty's jnsth'.i's ol the pcaco lor tlM> soiitlicrn ilistricl of the island of Ntnvfoiimllaml, ami iiiukcMi oath and saiMi that diirin;; tln^ last half of tho iiioiitli of Ma,v hiHt, il(>|H)n4'iit piloted from riacctitia to Piper's Hole the American Hcliooners Wi'lister liaubnrn, Hodgson, master; the (ioveriior (iooil win, .Mi'Oratli, master; and the I^aiira Nelson, I'roiit, master; thatde puiient hauled a sulIicitMuty of herring' for bait fortius Welister l.atdiiirn and (Ioveriior (ioodwin, and that the mastia' of the Laura Nelson, with r iwioiiiKllaiitl, aiitl 10 iiioiitli of Miiv In tho AiiM'iicaii (loviMiior (ioo I X u. No. 1. ti'niUTntff Milt mil Finhinij liiHiifiuive ('nmiiiiini. This I'olicy of liisiiuiiice Witiii>ss«'lli, That tho st<>r, liy tht'NC I'ri'si'iitM, caiiwc tor wiioni it may ironceni, To \n> IiiHurod, lost or iiol hist, — IIiiikIkmI DoHiu-h, on seven- einhtliH of llic Hi'liooiH-r and Hundred Dollars oil I he On tilts or Catch, Commeiieiii^' this day ami terminating; the thittieth day of November next, at IJ o'clock, noon : ^^ And to lie insiin'd in the niaiiiier prcscrihed hy the lly haws, and to he siilijcct to all the restraints ami liabilities therein set forth. And especially does this Coiiipaiiy a^^ree to insure only He\eneijjhths of any one vessel, nor over eiyht thousand dol- lars on any one risk. Tho owner or owiuts, in all (rases who are insured by this ('ompany, hIiiiII always have orieei^hth of said vessel, as \ allied liy the Directors, on Ids or their own risk, ami shall not be allowed to iUHiue said one-eij^hth, or any portion thereof elsewhere. This Company does not insure a^'ainst Ihirratry of the Mas ti'r or mariners. No claim for Io>s on, or damajje to, l"'resli or l-'rozen Fish, Salt Her- riuii ill l)iilk. Dories, Trawl (Jear, Nets, Seine, or Seine IJoat, shall be allowed i»y this Company, unless in case of total loss of vessel. 'J'lie insnrers shall not be liable for any partial loss on Salt, Coal,( Iraiii, Cured Fisli, or l-'riiit, either preserved orotherwise. or other goods that are esteeim-d perishable in tlieir own nature, when carried on freight, or on the freiglit thereon, unless it amounts to 10 per cent, on the whole aggregate value of such articles. and happen by stranding. No claims siiall be had for Oiitlitsor Cat(!h, insured, unless ""' " ' the loss amounts to or exceeds 10 per cent, on the value of outfits or cat'ih on board at the time of loss, and that loss shall be (\ir«.. Ii. ce caiLsed by fire or the dangers of the sea. It is also agreed that this Company shall not be liable in any case for loss on or damage to Outtlts or Cargo carried on deck, nor and subscri\)e(l| for loss or damage to the cargo of any v»'ssel employed in freighting, unless the loss amounts to -0 per (lent. of the value of said cargo, and CAllTEW, Xotivil I'nblic. then for the ex(!ess abov«! l."» per cent. only. Amniint of Vrv- No vessel shall be; insured by this Company except those liailing from (lloucest or, No vessel shall \w insured l»y the (Jonipany while engaged in the business of carrying Sand or Stone. If there be any Lime on board, one hundred per cent, to be added to [the premium for the passage. lulu. V, ♦inc. No claim I'or loss on the hull of a vessel shall be allowed by this Company, unless said loss or damage shall amount to the Ifollowing percentage on the whole value of said vessel as valued in the ■JUu i!!;:ni .0 - * ^ W^ \'' ^ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ''/ // {./ *ii :/ ^ WM 1.0 '^.^ I.I 1.25 m »40 ||2 5 22 !.4 III 1.6 c?> / -c^l % > /A 'm 7 Photographic Sciences Coiporation s q\ ^ :0^ jv \\ %' 6"^ ■C' 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 872-4503 .^ 5^ V '/

    third for new, viz :— A vcsnoI val *"* ntMl tit $7,r>(M> iiiid iipwiitdH, 'if, |M'r ci'iit. ; !!«7,000 to $7,. ■»()(>, i; por rent. ; ^tl.riOO to i^7,<" t», (IJ imt rent. ] )!«(i,(MM> to *«»,."»(M), 7 prr criit. ; i?:»,r>(M» t<» ♦<}, (M>0, 7;^ |MT cent, ; i««:»,(KM» to )?.■»,:»(►<>, S IMT vvut. ; At.'iUO to ijfOjtMKJ, 1» IMT r«'iit. ;"$I,(HIU to ijt t,r)(M>, t>A per n-nt. ; )i<.{,r)(»o to >i«l,()(H», lO.' p»T wilt. ; *;{,(!()(► to i5«.;,r»(M», 1 1 p«T r«'iit" ; i!<'J.r.(>0 to i?;{,(M)0, 1L' |mt cent.": i!«ii,r»tM> to i?L',.%(l(», I J p«T (U'lit. ; 4ll,r.0(> to *1.',(KM>, I, pel cfiit ; Ml,Um U, 91, 5(10, LTt p, 'Mt p(>i- c«>iit. ('ablcs, AiiclioiM, and iSoatH to lie at the rJHk of the owikm's in all eases, (>\(;i'pt a total loss of vessel. !;>ails, Ui;;;;iii;,% .Masts, and all other appiir- teiiaiiees l)eloii;j[iii;r to the ves.sel, to be at the risk of the owners, in all cases, exeept the loss on them at one time amonnts to the following per- epntay;e on the whole value of the ve«m^l as value and upwards, 10 per eent.; $7,(»(M» t(> «S,()(K>. 11' per eent.; J>f)»,(HK) to 7,000, II pi-r eent.; !i>.~),000 to >*(\,imt, Hi per eent.; $4,0(»0 to '>.),000, IH per eent.; *;{,(»0i> to *l,0(M>, L'O per eent.: )!0 to J^li.tJOO, .{0 p«T eent.; all under !^l,r>00, .'l.'i per <;ent. ; and under siu'h adjustment onuthiril shall We de dueted for new. Notice of any claim on the (/om|>;in,v for dama;{;es .shall l>e;;iven to the ('ompany within ten days of the arrival of tlie vessel, or no loss will be allowed. No ves.sel rej-eiviiij; ibuna^e, whereby the (.'ompany bee(»ines liable, shall in any <>vunt be .sold until directions to 'Jint ettei^t shall have l)eeii commiinieated to the Master or A^ent from the Company. Cables and Anchors lost or sacritieed on (he tishiu}; grounds shall nut be paid for by the Company, in any ease, except total loss of vessel. Gilt work or carving; shall not, when lost or damaged, b(^ paid for ex- cept ill erases of total loss of vessel. In a«IJustinjJC partial losses the' bowsprit (if a vessel shall be considered a .spar. In cases of disaster to any Vessel insured, it shall be lawful for the insures to take po.s.se.ssiou of and repair the dama;,^^, and to demand of the owners their proportion of the expense thereof, and the act.s of the insured or iii.surer.s in takinjj pos.session thereof to save, jjieserve or repair the .same, shall not be «leemehall work I nient Aim liereb) kt'snt'l val m>r fM'iit. ; jjil,r»nO tt. ; M\, {)(){) to n iill cast'8. In'i- appi'i- iMTs, ill all li)\viii«; 1>i«S,tMK». (>0(>, Hi IHM per (HMit. : ; all uihUm wliall l»^ til" rjVtMl to tlu' loss will 1)1' iiy Imh:oiiuis t 'shall b.ivc lll.V. (U shall not )f vessel, paul tor ex- e coiisiih'ivil I w fill for the 1) diMiiainl of , a»its of the , preserve or •cept.iuee or \»e repaired (late of the is Company, )inpan.y), at ty p T cent, rs are not in •aint, seizure for any dam- Vessel while Nor will this other niPtftl- cept in cases isurers; ami or, be eonsid- aiid Owners e on the date to November ovember 30th r mt\\ of the •JOth of the AWAIMi OK rilK KIKIIKKY COMMISSION. .1451 same year, (>.3 percent.; from Kcbniary 1st to Noveinlicr .'KMli of the same year, 0 percent.; from March 1st to November .'(0th of the .same year, >'>ft per cent.; from April 1st to November .'JOtli of tim same year, .'» per cent.; from May l.'Mh to November .'WMh of tln" same year, \.\ per cent.; from July 1st to November .'lOth of the suine year, I per (rent. Two and one half per cent, extra on the amount insured to be adde«i to llie premium of any vessel em|ilo,\ed in the (ireenland lisheries, «ir any Idisiness » ast of l-'lemish Cap or the forty-tlfth tle<;ree of lon;;itnile; one per «!ent. for 'tiiy vessel sailing; on ii voyajje to N'ewfonndlainl, between tlio Kith «'.: November, 1S70, and the 1st ol' .March, 1877; one half of one |)er cent, to be added if employed in tint itay of Island lisheries on or after October 1st next, at 1- o'clock, noon; »>nelialf of oiu^ per cj'iit. to Ite atlded for any vessel enj^att'Ml in thn »)r belbre Octth, at 1- o'liall be made as such survey shall direct, and be done in a faithful and \v(»kman-like manner, one-'iiiird to be deducted for new in the ailjiist- iiient of the loss. And so Uie President and Directors atbresaid are contented, and do hereby bind the i)roperty of the s,iid lnsuran(!e(!ompany, to be insured, executors, administrators, and assij;ns, for the true per- tormance of the premises, confessinji' themselves jtaid the consideration due unto them for this insuraii(;e by the insured, at and after the rate t»f per cent, for the term, with any extra jnemium above provided tor, and in case a further amount siiall be leipiired to pay losses, in excess of said premiuii: and extras, all such sums as may be levied on the preminms earned to ]>ay such excess «»f losses. In Witness Wiikukof, tlie rresident hath signed, and the Seiiretaiy liath countersigned, at Gloucester, this day of one thou- saud eight hundred and seventy-- iSecretary. dllOUdl': STI::KLE, rreshlmt. ilh ill i\ VM,f! I II I*. '!■!!!■ |i .•1452 AWARD OF Tin; FIHIIKKV COMMISSION. Ko. 'J. I'lYLA WSof the fitinu'CHttr Mutual Fishimj liiHUiatwv ('oinpanif for tin i/ears lH7(J-77. — Atlofttctl Xoremher, l.S7«{. — ilcoryv Steele, PreHhlnit ; N. IK CuHnhif/liam, VU'cl'irHulent ; (Uivuh Stitry^ Scvrvtary ami Trcas urer. Article I. This (!om|)iiiiy sliall ')i^ tfovt'nnMl by ii board of t«Mi Direct or.s, wlio shall he chosiMi from tliu Stock hohlcrs at tho uiiiiiiiil iiieotiii;; of thu Coinpiiny by a stock vote; otiu of whom Hhall bu (^lioscn by th*- Directors to act as I'rcsidoiit, atnl atiotlier to act as Vice President. The duties of tlie I'resideiit (and in his absence the Vice I'resith'iit, shall be to preside at all meetings of the Hoard, or of the Stockholders, and to perform sitcli otlier duties as may be retpiirtMl of them. The Directors shall have power in case there is a vacaujsy on the Hoard can.sed either by non-acci>ptau(-«*, resignation or death, to choost* from amoii); the Stockholders some person or persons to till the vacancy : they shall niso have the power to appoint a Secretary and Treasurer, and to ilx upon salaries to be paid to the otlicers of the Company. Article 'J. Tho President and Dire<;tors shall superintend the concterns of the Company, and have the manatrement and direction of all things not otherwise herein provided for. They shall jirovide a suitable otilce for the transaction of busines.s, and furnish it in such a manner as tliev shall think proper; they shall cause to be kept by the Secretary a fair record of all their transactions, and shall report at the annual meeting in each year, a detailed ac(;ount of the (;oncerus of the (/ompany, which report, when iic<;epted, shall be eiiteied u|>ou the records of tlio Cotn- pany. Article '.). The Secretary shall keep the books and accounts, shall col lect and receive all monies, and pay the same over to the Treasurer a.s soon as received ; shall till up and record all policies an, " " (»,."jOO to (;,()(M) to r),.">(i() to r».o(»o to 4, .■)(>() to 4,000 to 3,r)00 to ;j,(ioo to 2,500 to 2,000 to 1,.'>00 to 1,(KM) to All under 1,000 Cables, anchors and boat to be at the risk of the owners in all cases, except a total loss of vessel. Sails, rigging, masts, and all other appurtenances belonging to the vessel to be at the risk of the owners in all cases, except the loss ou i( It u • 4 U 4( H 7,.jOO, (i per cent. 7, (MM), «jA per cent. (),.")(M), 7 per cent. 0,IMM), 7i per cent. ,"i,.'»(M>, 8 per cent. ."),tMM», !» per cent. 4,.-»(M>, '.).\ per cent. 4,(MM), \{)l per cent. ;{,.-.(M», u" per cent. :{,(MM», 12 per cent. L',.500, 14 per cent. 2,000, IS per cent. l,.".0O, 25 per cent. .{0 per cent. w m H r K) I., t'- •■'tr 'I!; Ill 34r> I AWARD OP TIIK FIHIIKRV CDMMIHHION. »l •4 M It t« tit)in tt tt tt tt (t tt Ml uihIci IL' per cj'iif. 1 I |M>r (-('lit. tli<>m at oiiit tiiiiH iiiiioiiiitN to tli» tollowiii); pcnu'iilu^^o on the wliulf valii«» of tliu vvMNcI UM vuIiumI in tliu policy, vi/. : — A vt'SHol \ aliu'tl at *S,(MM>, Mtid upwards, 1(» prr vvut. 7,0(M» to liH.dOO, <»,(HM) to 7,0II(», .■»,(K»0 to «1,(KM>. Hi per ct'ilt. l,(io(» to .■.,nol», IS pj-r cent. ;{,(MM> to J,0(M», IJO ptMt'cnt. L',(I(M> to ;{,(MIO, '.'I iinrciit. l^'tOi) to L»,l)()(», :«> p('r(!«>nt. l,riUO ;{."» piT cent. Ami ntxIiM- such ailjiistincnt on('tliii'ircctors are aiithori/cd and cnipowctcid, in (;aso of partial los^, under this article, to compromise with tint assured wIumi in their jitd;: nient It would he for the interest of the ('onipan.v so to do. Articli! IS. Whenever the Directors shall require it, a survi-y shall he ceivin^ dan)a;;cs Huppos(>d suillcu'ut to entitle thiun to re|>airs by the Company, and such repairs when ordered Ity saiij survey, shall be nnide as they shall direct and be done in a faithful ami workmanlike manner, and with nmnl materials, one third to bu detlucted tor new in the adjustuuMit of the loss; said repairs to bo made under the direction of the Directius when pra(;ti(;abhs notice of siiidi any shall be stranded, and the master or owner shall think it for the interest of tin- Company to net sucli vessel oil" and save the property, the Company dn hereby pledjre themselves to pay their proportion of all reasonable charges which may arise in consequence of such condition, whether successful or not. Article '20. No claim for a total loss shall be allowed by this Com- pany, unless the cost of repairs (according; to the laws of the(.'om|>iiuy,) ut one time, after detiiictin^ one third for new, amounts to titty per cent, of the value of the vessel as in the Policy. Article 21. This (Company will insure the outHts or cargo of any Gloucester vessel. The amount to bo insured on such outlits or cargo shall be designated in the Policy separately from the vessel, but no claim shall be allowed for the sum so insured, utdess the loss amounts to or exceeds 10 per cent, of the value of said outfits or cargo on board at tint time of loss, and that loss shall be caused by tire or by the danger of the ^eas. No claim ioi loss on, or damage to outlits or cargo carried on deck shall be allowed by the Company. In adjusting losses on out- tit.s, the whole catch shall be considered as out tits. Article 'J2. Each and every stockholder shall furnish \es.sels, outlits or cargo to be insured, the amount of insurance of which shall be at least seven-eighths of the amount of stock subscribed by him ; should he fail to comply with the al)ove recpiirement, he shall be held to pay the lowest rate of premium on sucdi sum as shall tnake the required amount. Article 2."5. This Company will not be hehl for any loss or damage b.v restraint or seizure by any h'gal or illegal power whatsoever, or for ac cident or damage which nniy happen to any vessel while she may be un der such restraint or seizure. Article 24. Sixty th» wholt lU'W ; Itut iiitiiil lo>s, llH'irJiHl;; •y sliiill l>i' t to iMititlc n'd Ity siiiil litlil'iil iiiid « jliidiu'tt'il llilllc UlllitM \V\\ (liltllii;;)' III) losH will ly shall l»t' 'li'St of tlif oiiipaiiy «l<> leasoiiiiblr Ml, whetlH'i this Com ('ompim.Vi) to titty per r^o of any its or carf^o ssel, but no ss amounts {JO on board tho (lanfjer iro m.ike a similar statement, and if the loss eaiinot be ailjustiMl iiv ilie piiiies, a refereiiee shall he eliosen in Ihe manner pniiiled oat by llie laws of the ( 'ommniiwfaltli, and their deeision shall be tiii.il. .\iid Ihssim sliall l>e made up by soiiie peismiii')! iiitei(>sted in tlie (V)iMpiii\ whi-ii thiun- siired so leipiest. Arl fir L'tl. This Cimipany will n»»t insiii'<' osi-r ei;;ht tlio.isaiid d(»llars on any one vessel and her oiitlits or eai^ti. Arlirlr '21. No ves.sel insured by this ('oinpany reeeivin;; d.ima;;e whereby t lie ( 'uiiipany beeomes lialde, shall in any event be .sold until diieetions to that elfeet shall have bi'eii eoinmiinie ited to the master or ap'iit from the Company. Artivir L'S. No v»'.s.sel shall b(( insiir(>ven eighthsof her valm* as deeiiU>d upon by the DirecMtU's, the owners of the vessel in all ea.ses risking; one-eiuhtli of s;iid value. Arlirh- L'U. (iilt work ov earviti); shall not, when lost or dama;;ed, In- paid for by the Company except in (rase of total loss ot vessel. Aitiilr :>{). Ciibles or anchcMslost or saeriliceil on the lishinir f^ionnds, shall not lie paid for Ity the (Jompany in any ease, except total loss of ves.sel. Articiv 'A\. In adJiistiiiK partial losses, the bow s|iril of a vessel shall be (M)nsidered a spar. Avtirlr ',\2. No ves.sel shall sail from the haibor of (iloiieester upon any voya^^e whatever afier the lltteenlh day of November next, at noon, at the risk of this ('ompany. Any ve.ssel not havin;,' arrivt-d from the voyajje, she then is on November l.")tli, at I- o't;lo<;k, noon, shall pay a premium at the rate of uui) and on(^half per (tent. p«>r month until lier arrival. Tlie I'oliey on sindi ves.sel to be (;ontinin'd until her arrival as afore.said. Attirh'Mi. This Company will not, under any J.-. tk C.A Feb. 1 t( (i Mar. 1 '» r,.\ Apr. 1 11 5 May l.-i 11 4-V .lul'y 1 ti i" But when eithcrof said dates shall fall on Sunday, then the premium upon application.s made on the next day |)recedinj{ shall be computed under the rate of the date so occurring? on said Sunday. One per cent, on amount insured to be added to the premium of any ve.s.sel employed m iMiy '*«*'■. iil 34.'j; AWAIM) OK THK IISIIKKV COMMIHMON. in till' N«>\vfniititw«'tMi tlir l>'tili ut' NnviMiihcr atitl tin- iMtoC .Miirrli ii<>xt ciiNiiiiiK. Artirlr 'A't, A n-tiiiti piciiiiiiiii iiiiiy Im* iiIIdwimI w ht'iifvi'i' any polii'v iHNiKMl li,v IIiIn coiiipiiiiy nIiiiII he caiircNMl. Ai'tirh' 'Mi. At flic floNiMtl' tin* iMiMJiiimM iif tlii' year, il' it nIm)iiI<| a|>p«*ar tliut a prolit liail Immmi tna in the iMiMincss of tint company, tlM> sanio shall Ih< (livitl)Ml anions; llic pitMninnis caiiitMl hy inNuraiM'o on tlir Mtork liclil liy (Mi'li storkliolilcr ; ami .slionlil rlM>r«> Im> a Iosm in tlM> linsini'SM ni tlir company, tin* N)im(> .shall hi* asscMHiMl accorilin;; to tin* almvciiami'il comlittoiiM as rc^at'iis prolit. No. li, i'lSIIINi} SIlllMMN(i I'AI'Kl:. TNITI-.l) .srATKS OF AMKItH'A.— DIHTKH' I OF (i l.ol (K.STKIJ. It 18 A(iUKFJ> hctwccn -, ajjt'iit orowni-r of tin* .Schooner , «pialilliMl hy law for j-arryiiij; on tlio Hank anil other FiHiiF.uiK.s of the IniUMl States, ami Master or Skipper of thu Haiil Schoon'M', and the FisluM'tMeii whose names are to this a^ree- inontHiibserihei), that thesaiil will at own expense, equip the saiil Schooner with all the necessary ta.'Mit llsh- in^; seasot), and will use their best endeavors to procure all the Fish, Oil, «S:c., they can, and for the success of tho voyajje or voyages they may Ko ; and will be ready at all times, and will never leave the said Schooner without permission from the Owner or Master thereof. And it is a;{reed that the owner or A^ent may dispose of and sell nil the Fish, Oil, iS:c., that n)ay be landed from the said Schooner whenever he may think proper, and after deductinj,' from the Oross Stock all charjjes for Ice, Jlait, Straw for llait, and Nipp«^rs, the net proceeds to be divided, one-half to tlie Owner or Owners, the remaining' half arnon^ the Fishermen, in proportion to the ipiantity or number of lish which they shall have respe(;tively cautflit, ea(;h man paying; his proportion of the expense of Packin;? Mackerel, Freight and expense in shipping; Fish, iS:c., home, in accordance with the uunibt>r or (piantity can<;lit, and each one of the Crew with the Skipper to pay an cipial part of the followiiiff charges, viz: Cookin;;, Sawin;^, Wood, Water, lloistinj;, ^ledicine, scraping masts, and tarring; ri;;j;in;;. And the said owner doth hereby sti|>ulate and a^rrce with said iisliermcn, that he will render a just and true aciuiunt (»f the delivery and sales of said Fish, Oil, »S:c. AikI it is further Ar/rrfd between the parties, that the Master or Skip- per, together with the tishermen, arc entitled to all the benefits and privi- leIIH(>, tiUtkiu illMl iiiid <;nit't till" Cod or ri'.-'.Mit (IhIi- th« TiHli, niivn lli»\v (> tli<^ Hiiid or MuMter ose of and Hc.liooner tlio (hosH rs, tli« net riMniiinin^ nunibft' of |i)i\iiiK his id rxpenso ir <|Uiiiitity (M|iiiil part , lloistiu};, iiid owner will render li, Oil, .S:c. vv or Skip- • a law of 'I ies of the Fisliernieii r wliicli thiy )r Agent. AMIIAhMTICAL INDKX. AlK'nlccii, l.onl; ('orrfM|iiitiil<'iicii witli Mr. Kvcri'tl In n'latitiii to i\\e llini'- mill' iiiii< 1 iri-l li> A.laiiiH. .r.>Hi>|i|i : Alliiliivit •,•:.•;. I'liif.'.! Siiitt-s ii, iiml Vmini;.^ Allliliiv it i>f K, M. ('iitl«>r on fniriiiii-litiD'ntt Hi-ntcd to till' iiMHtMiililv of Niivu Sciitiii Miirrli '.';t, H:!* I lit I AllliluvitH of IliiniMiii Hay uinl (Mi.irloH C'oiikIiIuii <'(iiici>riiiii(( Ain<, A|i|MMiilix (>: 1. McNeill, Alitxikiiili>r M.: ('iivi. I.ntkiii, Al««x. I'. : Niiil I'oihI, I'ri Kilwiinl ImIiohI lOiM i>. Coiiroy, .Iiiiiion; Kililiinn Triiico Kilwiiru InIiiiiiI \0W 7. WliiU), JiiiiittH F. : Alburton, I'ilniH K(iilii>: Wig Miiiinit(i>Hli. I'ritic. Cliitiiipion, .lolin : ('uH('iiin|M><>, I'rintt< Kdwnnl IhIuik! llOfi 11. DaviiUoii, SitliuHtiun : TittiiiHli, I'riiiit* Kdwunl NlitiKl 1107 i'J. (liHiiipioti, Willliiin : CaHcmn|MM', rriniit Kilwiml litliuid 1104 lit. Mi'DointId, .laiiK'H: KuHt Toint, l'ri:ico Kdwitrd iMJiind 1110 1 1. DnvidHon, .liiiiK'H |{. : 'ri({iiiNli, I'rinco Kdwtird iNliiiid. llll I'l. ritiii))li<'ll, .lowpli : SoiiriN, I'riiiot I'.dwfird Islnnd lllll lii. ('Iiivt, Alcv. : .SoiiriM, Primo Kdwtird Inland 1114 17. MoniNuy, .laiiK's .1. : ri^niHli, rriiiri> Kdwaid Nliind 1115 1". Ihii'ki'tt, Kdward: TiitniBli, Priiico I'.ilward Ixlaiid 1117 1'.*. O'Connor. Mauriri- : Kildaio ('n|><>, I'linrn IvUvard Island lUH •Jii. Larkiii, AlfxandtT : Allicrton. riiini' l!d\vard Island.. Ul'J •Jl. I't-riy, (iilliort : I'rojj I'ond, I'rinrf Kdward Inland Il'iO •J-.', (iandi't. Aitno.!.: Nail I'ond, l'rinct< Kdward Inland ll'.il ',':<. Karkin, William .'^. : Nail I'ond, I'rinot Kdward iHland IVH ','1. Foley, MicliiH'l : AllMTton, l'rine»< Kdward Island ir.i;l '.'.'>. I'ai|iiet, Marshal : .*^oiiriH, I'rinee Kdward Inland 1124 •,'t'.. Dearie, I'eter; Kollo Hay, Trinee Kilward Nland ll'^r* ','7. I'rowMe, Samuel : Murray llarhor, l'rine<< Kdward Inland ll'iti -,'-'. Mol'liee. Daniel: Hi« I'(Mu1, I'riiic.) Kdward Island ll'.>7 •,".». McFadyen, Maliolin : Murray llarhor, I'rinc« Kdward Inland 1 ViH :!o. l)iiiin,CliarleH \V. : Murray llarhor, I'rince Kdward Inland \l'M> M. llowlett, .lame.s: (ieor^t'towii, I'rince Kdward Inland llli'i :t-J. (iraham, ,lolin : Cavendisli, I'rince Kdward Island llllt 'X\. McUonaUl, .lolin |{. : St. MarKuret's. I'rince Kdward Inland li:(5 ;U. McKun/.ie, Colin: French I{iv«»r, Princo Kdward Inland 11117 Xu (iilma!!, .Mphunno: Malpei|ne. Prince Kdward Inlatxl UK!) :W.. MarHhail,K.; Anticosti, (/nehec County 1140 :i7. Nickerncui, Jiimen A. : Slarjjaret'n Hay, Nova Scotia 1142 ;W. Intiraham, .luhn L. : North Sydney, Capo Hreton 1145 ;>'.>. McPhee, John ,).: Ki^ Pond, Prince Kdward Inland 1147 4<'. McUonalil, Jaiuen: Chepntow, Prince Kdward Inland 1149 11. Nowlan, ,lamu8 : Soiirin, Prince Kdward Inland 1151 IvJ. McNeill, John G. : North Runtlco, Prince Kdward Inland 115K 4il. McKen/iu, (iuor^e: French River, I'rince Kdward Inland 1154 44. Paint, Peter, nr. : Port llawkesbury, Nova Scotia 11.57 15. Lawrence, (loorne I". : Port Iluntinpn, Nova Scotia lir»8 M>. Hadley, Jaincn H. : Port MulKiavo, Nova Scotia 1151) 47. Crinpo, Michael : Harbor an Bonche, Nova Scotia 1101 ■48. Munu, Robert Stewart: Harbor (irace, Newfoundland lltJ'i 217 F ; -I, I : ■'1 nfl) 1 1 . 1 ' M 3ir)8 AM'MAItKiK .\l. INI>KX. .\n\i\n w. :.:». • h), ri7. .'iH. fill. t'lO, 111. it:i. •hi. iMi. «i7. «K lii). "0. 71. 7V. 7:t. 71. 7.V 7''» wiikI, .Iiiiiii'ii H, : Ht. .IuIiii'n, Nt'W IimumHimmI KiiKi'iniiii, .liiiiM'H ,1. ; Hi. .tiiliir<«. Nt'M hiiihilluiiil |)« , ^'l■^^ r•••• I'.MiiiH, .lull II : KiikIinIi IIiiiImiI', Ni'm IuiiiiiIIiumI ...i. |{imi>, .Inltli : llrllnriun, N'l-wtiiiiiiiiJitlMl lliiliiTt, riilli|i: Mill lull Mii'liiii. Ni<\vl\vfiiiiiiilliiiiil liiovniniliinj, llnii y : Ktiiiniiiiri', Niwriiiinilluiiil HiiiMik. .liiiiii'N r, : I'orl 11111% Nkm fuiiiiiiliiiiil Ilciiiii'll, Willliuii (ii<(ii'){i< : I'lirliiii)', .Ncm riiiiiiilliiiiwriiiiiiillitiini;i>, Ninvl'ouiiillanil Winltir, 'riKiiiiiiN : Kill ill, Ni<»'riiiiii>lliiiiil I'iiit*, I'liilip: Hiiriii Miiy, NiiwTtiiiniliuiMl I'lilliiiM, Wijliiiin, lliii'in, Ninvrniiiiilluiiil I'iiii', OwiMi : I til I ill Hay, .Ncwfiniiiilliuiil rmil, Kii'liiittl : Hiiiiii liny, Nnwriiiinilluinl HiTlt'iiii, Kruni'iM : Hiiriii, N«wriiiiiiilliinil Mrliiiitli, Kit'liiinl: Oiii'iin, N«wriiiiiiillaiiil i't'iini'll. lliMiry : 'ri'i-|iiiiiy. Nfwi'iiiiiiilliinil I.i'iiiy, I'lktrirk: Kt^ninvN, .Vi'wroiinilJuiul .lurk Mill II, .Mli'liiti-I : Ki'iii'WN, Ncwroiiiiiliiiml While, .loll II : I't'irylitiiil, .Ncwl'iniiiillaiiil Mdiiy, KiilirrI : ra|iiiii liity, Ni-wfoiiiniliiiiil WiiiH<>i-, I't'trr : A<|iiii[ortt<. .Ntiwroiiinlliinil CiiHliin, KirliunI : rit|Ht Hr, Ninvroiiiiilliiinl KiiImtIm, 'riininiiH ('. : I 'ik|ii> ('iiiiho, Kinvt'iiiiniiliktiil ...... Kicliai'il, .laiiicH .S. ; (■cImiiii'n ('iivi<, Nova Hcotiii OroHiT. .?Hriili : l.iiMcr l,ii l!av<>, \ovit Sciitiii .IonI, Niklliiiiiii 1171 1171 IIT.-i I IT.-. Ii:r, ii:; lu- ll 711 11-0 li-i II-.' ii-.i ii-i ii-i ii»i; I1-: II-: I I -.1 ll'.Ml ll'.H. II'.M I I '.I.' Il'i:t I lit., ii'.i*; iiit-« I'JIHI IVJII.' Iv'ii.t Vim van IVoi; I'.'oti vm: ViO-* I'JO'.I \ili< I'.' I.' Li lit IV'l I I'jn; I'.'i: I'JIH K'l'.i Li-Jil 1 •.'•,' 1 i->ji JO.JO l'.WI liW.-. I'i'.'C) Vi',n LJ.'tt I 12 tl 1211 1 I2:i'-' 12:t:i Vi'XA ALl'IIAMKTirAI, INKKX 34:)9 I' Nit I- nc, I I I'm IIU, lll'l' I I'- ll •,. Il.'t ii:i IITI I If. ii:.. n:r. n:: 117- II7!" ll-n \i-i ji-.- ii-.i ii-i ii-» ii-t; 11-7 ii-',i ir.Mi ll'.'n tl'.ll I III,' ll".t:i M'.t., ii'.h; 1V>(I0 I'Jdi I'JIll UV. I'^dt Ivor, I'.'* It; l'J(i7 ivid-* l',MI',l I'^IH I'.'li I'JI.t liill I'jit; l'.M7 I'Jl'.l liiviii l-^'.M IVW'J 1'2-r.i liw:. l'2'i7 I'iU lri;W I'i'.i;! Ani)lit\llH III miiiiMiM iif ItrilUli ritw, A|)|H'inlu (i -L'uiitluiM'ii, 117. I'riii li, .liiliii : CiiNv jliiv, Nii^it HiKiliii I'ilhl 1 1". I'liiwr, .Iiiiim'n: Si III III llur, Nov it HcoIIa ••.... I'i:i* ll'.i. rnuiKoii, .liiliii : Cow lliiv, NitviiNfiilla l'l.\» 1711, Miiriiliy, .loliii: l.inttnii, Novit Hcitiiii |-i:l*i 171. Miiliii'KOM, Aiiun* : Noiilli KmIim'v, Nnvii Hoitiii , \'i\ii Vn. Swi'll, Williitiii II. lull l. lliiiiiilloM, Jiiliii |{. : Nkm Curllitlr, i/ii«Ihm' 1711 I7<>. Contiir)', llii|iti«l)>: liruiiil Klvrr. 4)iih|i(^ •...>.. I7|ii 17T. Hull, lilwuiil (». : Niw ('iirll-l., giirliLO 1717 17*^, tiiiDliii'i, Williuiii liilnnnl; l.oiiixliiirit, Nova M«;uti* 171^ 17t». 1.1'iiioiitHlN. I'liill|i; Anrliut. Nnvu Siotla 17l'.> i:ill. Hiiiylli, ('lirUtt)|ilii-i': roll liooil, Novii Hritliit 17ril ni, Hriin7 i:t7. Illrlli*, Kilwanl: l,iiii(>iiliMrt( I'liwii, Novit Huot.A I7ril i:i:i. KiHiT, KiiruN; l{im<> lluy. Niivu Mciitiit I7.VI i:U. MoriiMi, .loliii : roil Miilwiiv, Novik ,Sriillii \'i:A\ \Xt, Hini'lt^fr, .lolin : l,llllll||^ Town, Novn Sootlu Vi^y* y.U'i. KliliitrilH, KIIuh: lictHon'N Cove, Novit NcolU IQi'iO i:i7. (ii-tNon, JiiiMi'N : (iftMon'N ('iivi>, Novu Hi'iiIIa ..*•• 17i>7 ]:H. I'lililicoviM, .Iuiiii'm : New DiiMiii, Novit Scoliu 1711:1 i:i'.(. MclluiiKull. lioMulil: MuiiiuMi Nova Scotiii 17lM 111). lliiKiiiill, Joliii : llnlinniH, Nov* Mvolhi 17 14'l, OioiK'liv, Puvlil: |lcN<'tiiiMNi>, Novu Mrntiik 17)>7 1 14. L<> MliiiK', iMiilorc : Aixliut, Novii .Sitotiu ITll- 1 l.'i. Murphy, llryiiii : I'diI lloo i;>:i. Mcjioinilil, Robert J. : Tort .lollit«, Nova Scotia 177.'> l.-.l. Kri'liil, Willium: Aricliut. Novu Scotia I77i; ir..''.. DijtKilim, l'hili|>: I'ort Mcdwav, Nova Scotia ITTi! I.'M;. McI>omil«l, MicliiH'l: Wliitcliuvcn, Novu .Scotia I!f77 ir>7. Miiri>liy, (icorfjo: I'ort Hood, Nova Scotiu 177- ir)H. I'lutluii, .Iuimcn: Aricliut, Nova Scotiu ['irtf IWJ. KolivrtMon, Hiluiru: (irillln'H Covo, (iumiic, (jiiobuc I'ino hU). WcHt, Uonulil ; (Jraiiil (ircvo, (iaH)i(^, t/iichec 17^*1 ir.l. MvInniH, Micluicl : Port DuiiicI, (jiiclicc I'i^'.t 11)7. KoK«rHoii, lion. .laiMCM .1, : St. .lolinV, Ncwfonnillanil 17*^4 KCI. Mercpr, Niiac : May KolicrlH, Ncwfoiinillunil 17*; 1114. Fiiinilcr, Sumiu'l : CcmhiiIim t'ovc, Niiwt'oniullanil Vi^i'i li;."i, HiHliri)!, (Jcorjjc: Hnrin, Nowfoiinilland 17'f7 KM!, llicknian, (icorj»t' AniliroHiv. (irnml Hunk, Nc\vfoiiii(ll:iiiil 18"^'^ Ui7. Lnk«<, .lolin, sr. : Fort n no, Nc\vt'otinillun;c ; (Jraiul Hank, NcwIoiiikIIuihI 171Ki nil). Holiiiun, Henry T. : llarltor Micton, Ncwfomiilland 17l»7 17. Munnint, .loHhna: I'aspcbiac, < Quebec )7".)"< 17(J. I.eMlanc. Frank; Tort Daniel, (./ncbcc 171»;» 177. Hellion, ThoiiiuH ('. : Little l'ubo», (Quebec IttOI 17H. O'Connor, William: Littlo I'ubon, (Quebec i:U)7 171>. Lncp, John M.: (iiundc (!r«ve, t/nebec 13t>:t IriO, Price, Homy : (irandu (>revt», (/nebec l^O'i IHI. llyman, William : Capo do HoHier, Qncbec 130i; |H7. Oavey, Abraham: (Jrnndo Grove, Qnoliec I'M' IKl. Ferguson, Peter : L'Ance an Ueauliitt, <^^itcbec 13tH 1^4. liaker, ChriHto^dier: Capu Cove, Quebec l:JOi) V. 1 ■:>hI % m 34r>o AI.PIIAIIKTirAI. INItKX. AllliliMiia III iiii|i|i|M mill (i -CwiiltnilMl. IKt. riillli|Mi, llttslil : iViiliimilii. ltii«|i<^, (Jim'Imi ••••t ••• I'tll l-«l, Millir, Kliliitril: IViiliiitiilH.(>Mii|)4>. Qiitbi'u 1:117 I"?. KiMiiipy, .liiiiM'* : |Vr«'<^, (jiii«< I'M.' I-N. |.i<|lriiti, l-'riiiii'U: IVr<'<«, (^ii |;ill !-*.•. .l)i|iti«t4Mii<, \\ llllMiii : MMailiiti'ii NUiiiU, <;ii«bM ••.. I'tl'i ItHi. roiiriiliT, Cliiiili* : MitKiliilxti Klvnr, (Jiiubtii].... Illli'i r.M. Null, Ali«xiM : K'ox Hivrr, i< |;II7 r.*'^. ritrk\MMNl,,liilin : ('ii|iii K>aiiiiifl, .liiiiiiM : I'nx Kl\ir, UikIho , i:iVI !'.•.'>, I III! Iiy. ImImiikI: IVm <^, (^iikI IIIVJ llNi. Iliinii, riiUunl : I'iix Itivttr, (^D-liiN' IIWi l'.)7. I'ii>»iiii, .liiMi'|ili li. : \Vi>Nl|iiirl, Ni'w llriiiiawltik IM\ IIH. CiM.k, 'riiiiliiiiH ('. : r'iiiii%ii'k i:iVi *JiHi. I iMin, .litiiM'Pi: I'liii', (Jiii'Im'c |:W- '.'III. Mmiii, KiIiiiiiiiiI : I'liiV, (/ihIh-o i:vr> Vli-^. Viiiili Iiiliii: Mill lliiy, gui'licr IIIK* *Jli:i. iiiiMiiiirNc|, lii'iiiKi- : h'lii KiMT, i/iii|i, KolirK : l'i>\ Kivir, (/iikIkm' IXIT '.^li'. Mcruiili-v, l.iiki' : liiiii^liiN I'liMii, (jiikIidi) VXA"* Viii*. M< Kiiv. tliiiiiiiiN: i;iiH|ii', gimlii'ii l:i|n 'ill). Null, i-'niiii'iN: l'n\ Ui\i>r, (^iiiOifii Illll '.'II. .Ii-<) 'il.'i. I'liM'l. iii'iir)(i<: SI. Ui'ori;n. of M«l Hiiy, (^iiiiltuu l:Ui> '2U'>. Iirviil, ll.iiiji'l : Miit{ilitliiii InIiiihIm, (jiikIhiii I:t4- 'i\7. .<«ini'tti',.tiiNr|ih : (iiiltln'M Ciivk, giiulifi! l'M\> 'iX" riirlilli, .IkIiii : I'lirt lliiiilii, (jiinlini- \X>\ '.'I'.*. l.iiriiiiii-i<,Sixli> : Miit(ilaliMi iNlitiiiU, <}iit«c l;Ci( '.''.^1 <' '.'-.'■.'. siiiiiM, I'liiiiiiH: i;iHift,(viiii'> '.;-.':i. i;i'iiniir..liiliii : CarliNlo, (jiioliKC IXi' '.".'I. Ili.wir, Willlaiii I'lanciN: I'niiit St. r«t«'r, (iimbuo IIIT.- 'J'i't. Iliiiiili'i-aii, lly|i|)iiiyli': KNi|iiiiiiAii\ riiiiit,(jiiub«ic i;i.V< '.".'*!. Coiiiiiir, I'rntinN: KHiiuiiiiuiix I'm tit, (jiii'Iuh! i:ir>'i 'i'i7. l>i>>li-, ria('iili<: r.H<|iiliiiaii\ I'oitit, Ijiii'lii'c lll.V.i 'i'i'^- Ciiiiiiii'i, Oalii'ii'l : l',»|iiiiiiiiiix I'liiiit, (jiiiiIn'c llllIii 'J'J'.i. IliiiiilriMiii, Natliuiiii'l : KHi|iiiiiiuiix I'nliit, (jiiobou i:i)>ii 'J'MK lliiiiilroaii, .Itilion : KNi|Uiiiiaiix I'oiiit, (jiiabuo i:l !.':tl. I'lMi/t'l, l'liili|.: Slii.|.lraki\ yimlnii- IMi.i 'j:i'.'. 11 ini'liaiil, Saiiiiii'l : Mat{ilalrii iNlaiidH, Cjiiitbeo i:<)il '.^:(:i. Sfitbiiyitr, (iaiirii-l : Lowvr LaHavo, Novu Hootla i:iri.'> 'JM- .MiilliiiM, Patrick: Hoiitli Itur, Syiliii>y, Nuvii Hciiliu lliti: '.>:t.'i. l{y, Micliai^l : I)iiii){1iih 'I'liwii, (jiiubuo llUi'.i '.Jitii. Kiiiiril, IVtcr : Doii^^Iiim Tow 11, Ijiiitlmo i:iri'.i 'J:I7. Ki'iiiii'ily, Aiiilrow : iJiniKbiH Town, (jiiubiic lllTii i2;i!'. Ifriiciiii, I'ii'rre : Suvi'ii ImIuikIh, (juubuo i:)7l 'j:i'J. ('Iiiiiiiiiarii, Ihhiu". C'upu Ciiut, (jiiubei- i:i7;i '.^40. Liicko, AiiHten : I. oukeport, Nuv» Scotia 1371 '.ill- McAiUiiiH, Duiiiol : liOckupnrt.Nova Hcotia KI7.'> U4'i> Fiiiiriiior, MoHHie : Uruiiilo Vul^e, Qiiobeo i:<77 24:t- IliiiUlon, William: GroHno Nle, Quebec i;<7>- 'Mi- Carter, John : i'urt Moiitoii, Nova Scutia i:i7'.* •.>4r). McLeod, William : Tort Daniiil, Quebec i:mi !24(i. MnttliowH, Allan: Host KaKK«Ml iHlunds, Nova 8i:utiu 13Hii 247. Murray, David,, jr. : Port Miil^rave, Nova Hcotiu IMHli 21H. Condon, Thomaa: (iuyHlioro', Nova Scotia l'.\&i 2t!>. McKonzie, Alexander: Crow Harbor, Nova Scotia IIKI 'i.'iO. KobnrtHoii, .Michiiol : Port Jollie, Nova Scotia 1:IH4 aril. Piiblirover, t«eotlr«y W. : (ietson'it Cove, Nova S?iotia 1!1H.'> 'JD'J. Sciiboycr, Jauicb S. : K080 Uay, Nuva Scotia lildil Pan* Atlldii ■:\i. i;ui V.M. IMi 7r^^, \\u ■iM. i:in •i:>T Ml. •ift«. i;ui. -m 1:117 •^Ht, i:«i'' *^ll, l;ii" •m. •^m. v.m wi >:W' '»U\ i:w» ••••Ui, 'm. :*.:... >:w •viiH. ■.••I'.t, III."' ••'711, •i7l VXVi V7'i. •;7;i. i:i:i'' 771. 'U:,. •m. 777. l:il" 77". •77'.t. i:i»: 7H(i. 7«l. r.Mi '.'■7. 7-:«. i:M"' 7-^1. 7Hr,. i:u.' 7-«l, 7-7. r.iw 7rtH, 7".». vx.:< 71l»t •.".M. i:i:.7 7'.»7. 7ii:! i:ir.'.' •.nil. 'TIC. r.«.v.> 7'.N1. •^.»7. rM\o '■PJf*. 7;>'.>. i:ui;i ;t(H). :t(ii. i:«'.r. :u)7. ;iti:». VMV.^ ;»•». :i(t.-.. r.»7o ;|(h;. .107. ;i(iH. :!"'.». i:«7.". :!!!•. :ill. VV!" :tl7. :ii;i. i;»7i» :!ll. Mr,. i:iHu :il(;. ;ii7. ;tiH. ;iiit. , i;»H,-. AI.I'IIAtlKrU AL INUKX. IVItatll ■iMIilMMt i>l MlHlall rilu<, A|>|>«'li, *r : l.imci I i IIavk, Nnv* *«< i»tt» »»»» Hiiiiili, Willinm l». I'lttr HrMHl, Novn Kroii.i Hklhtifr, ,\ri'liiliiilil II \'»tt IIii*IImi|«, Nnvtt Mi*oll« MiiitiiH-. WilhiiMi WlilifhiiviMi, N'lVM Hciillit Mittirof, Miiltlii'«« \\ liltrliKvi'ti, Novit Hi'iitiw ,. Kt'iiiii'lK, NiiiH- \V l'4iri IIoihI. Novii Hfiiilit , ••t •• .MrAiliiiiix, .Ixliii ; I'lirt .lull if, Nova Hnilhi ('iitii|ilH'll, hiMiiilir I'ort Mmilot), Niivit Hi'iillii ..,,,, ,,., ,,,,, Kli-liiinl, .ioliii tiiiiilcl : l.iilliivi< Uliiittl, Novii H«>ii||ii Me I. mm), ( 'ill I II llriNiklvii, Nov it HroHii , ., |lii-ilii«' Ixlitiiil, No\it SiiotiH ('"Utilii'*. I.iviiikhIoii : \\i'«t|Mirt, Novit Mrolitt , ,,,, WiMil/rl, Mitrllii : 1. II WIT L.tllnvr, Novii Hmtiit ClllUllitll, WlllliiMi It.; I'liiNiMM'l, Novit Ncotiit •..•••• Mrhiiiiiilil, Alfiitiiili'r : I'lirl IIoinI Ulitml, Novit Mt'ollu I iillli«M, AtiuiiM : I'm I 11 1, Novit Si-ollit rniniT, .lilllli'N O. ; HI. .lolin'it, Ni'Mrfmillillitllll ■•• Iti'tlirii, .loll II : Wi'Ht lliin-i'ow . Novit Hnillit • rri'iniklii, I'.ilwitril l>. : I'oii IIihmI, Novit Hiiitiii Ciirnr, Uolirrl : I.oiiih llitrlmr, Novit Kroilit Mitlllii'MH I'ltikiT: Mliti'k I'oiiil. Novit Mdotlit I>i'it((li', Uoliorl : .'^oiirU, rrliioK Ivlwitnl iHlitml < iiri'v, .hiiiii'M : I'm! Miil^ntvi*, Novii Si'iiiiii I'iiikliitiii. Tlimiiiiw : Itoolli Mitv, Mniiot Iliirlow, Ki'iiImmi : .H|ii'ltiiirii«, Sovit Siolht Hill i til, .liiilitli ( .: MiirriiiKloti, Novit H.iotitt OiillioiiNi , Amion II. : Tivi-rtoii, Novit Hcotjit MiTfliiinl, , loll II : lliirilwlcki', Novit H.iotlit 'I'ruok, Witl litre: l.itlli' Utvi>r, Novit Scot in Mimlfv, (it'orUK I'.. : Tivi'lloii, Novit Scot in I'lt.VNoii, Cliitrii'M II. : Wcitl|iort, Novit .'^cotiu Crowfll, Klfu/.i'i ; (Mitrkr'n llitilior, Nov* Hcotlit Ki'iiti.v, Mitiiii'l V. : <'iiiii> Hitlili' iNlitiid, Novit Htotiu Morrill, (iillMTt ; Sitii ly ('ovi-, Novi» Hcoiiit Dciitoii, ChitrlfN \V. : Liltli< Kiver, Novit Hiotht Dt'iilon, .limii|ili I'..: IJllln KivtT, Novit Hcotiit MrKity, .loliii : 'I'iviTtoii, Novn Sfotiit OiitlKiiiiii', \Vliit«>ll«Iil : TiviTton. Novit Hcotiti Snow, .lohii \V. ; Hlnliy. Novit HcoMit FoHtiT, .lutni'M I'littrrMoii : Port WilliitiiiM, Novii Sootiit Litilil, Myron I'. : Yitrinoiith, Nuvit Scoliit 'riiiirNton, Aliritiii : Hiinronl, Novit Hcoliit KyiMHon. 8itiiiii)>l M. : Vitriiiotitli, Nova Scot in KiikiiiN, lioltiTt S., Jr. : Vitrinoiiili, Novit Siotiit , HoNH, Diiiiii'l : NortJi Kimtlco, I'rlnci* Kdwiinl Ixlitnil McI.i'ihI, .lohii Arli'iiiitH; Ki'iiNiii^toii, I'riiiri' I'.ihvitnl Nluiiil .M('l>oiialil, .liiiiicH : Clii'imtow, Priiicr I'.ilwHnl Ulitiol .Mc('oriiiit('k, D.iiiiil : Itlitck KiinIi, I'ritici- KilwanI iHlaiul Mcltoiialil, .Xn^iiN : SmiriN, I'linco Milwani Iniitiul MrDoiiiklil, I'fti'r : Sonris, I'lincr Kilwanl InIiiimI Mcliityri-, John : I'lilrlii'lil, l'riiic(> Kilwikiil JNlitiiil .Mi'Doiiahl, Mii'liatI: I'lciuli Kivrr, I'linri- IMwatil Inland \\ aluli, 'I'lioinas: Sniiris, I'liin r l.'.dwarii Ulaml , Doviaiil, hoininick : North KiinIIi.o, riincc KtlvMinl iHlanil , CarNoii, K'olM'rt : North KiixliiMi, I'riin c I'.ilwaiil ImIiiiiiI MrKac'liaii, CharlcN: 'rowiisliip No, Hi, rriiici' IMwaril Uluiiil Mi'Iifiiii, l>aiii<-l C: Hiack Kiish, I'rinut* Kilwani Isiainl Mrliityrc, Daniel: Itlitck llimli, I'rincc Kdwanl IhIuiuI , Miliicr, TlioiiiaM : I'arkur'it Cove, Nova Scotia , CoiiMiiis, .James \V. : l»ij{liy 'i'own. Nova .Scotia , .Swain, i)avid : I'ort Clyile, Nova .'^cotia I Holiiiiin, Koberl Henry: Sand I'oiut, Nova Scotia I'm* !><» |:n»l ini"? iihii i:n»i I UK-. l.f.NI i:nc line i:«»r i:ti»- lltM 1 11)11 lll)l : io:i 1 10.-. I H».'. I |in; I II 17 inc.* Mill nil nil 1117 1117 Mi;t till I (III iini I I III 1117 IIH 1 171 » 1 1711 1171 1 171 1177 It7:t M'i:: tl7l 1 17.-. 147.-1 lUi'i I »77 1177 1 17" 1 17'.» ii:il U:t7 h:i:i I43r> I4:i7 n:ts 1410 1 1 17 Itit 14r> 1147 m-' 1 14<.> ll.'iO I4.">t I4r>7 i4.-.;t m:>4 '.4.-W f»*«.l 1% "\ , ll^ 3462 ALI'IIAUETICAL INDEX. i AnitlavilH ill ritliuttal, in Nii|t|)ort of l{iiM( t. FiaiidtT, HtcMilH'ti : Cooiiilm L'ove, Nt^wfoundiauil :i44i> Ti. Tliornliill, ruiliii: AiidttrHoii Cove, NuwfoiiiuilaDtl :(44ii )>. ]{oNt', Gfor);o : .IcrHoy Harbor, Nvwfoiindiand :i44T 7. Kniiia, Maurice: I'lact-ulia, Newfoundland ;t4IT ^. Sullivan, Iliiinpliry : PlariMitia, Newfoundland :I44'- AtlidavitH prodiii-fd on lielialf of tlio I'nited Htattm : 1. >lo. 'i'riifant, Albert T. : llarimwtsll. Mo liUKI 7. Willard, Knncli (i. : I'ortlaiid, Mo 'JfJ'X r'. Trcfetlicii, GoorKe : roitland. Mo :!Oiil it. Conley, John : Tortlainl, Mi' :vnu\ 10. AVbitten, (). H. : Portland, M« :»0()'.' 11. Chaso, Stopliiui H. : Portland, Mo ;Utr.' IV. Kicb, MarMliall N. : Tortlaiid.Mc aOli, lo. Swett, Noab: Wflllloot, MasH :iO'Jii 14. I'ettiiiKill. Cbarh'N C: Suli-in, Ma.sn ItOtil I.'.. NVlHon, William II.: I'lyiiumtb, Ma«s :W'2- Ui. Small, ANa W. : Nantiukct, MaHH :UK1J 17. Smallisv, Charlies K. : Keiinv, Keiibcn C, Nantiickt-t, .Mass 'MX> 1"*. Crowofi, r.li.sba : ISiooklvn.'X. Y :Ut:v.i r.>. XickorMon.C'altM): Hiooklyn, N. V ;W4v ','". Habson, Horatio: (ilonc'csttT, Ma-ss ',WM\ '21. Friend, .Sydney, »V Mrother : (iloneester, Mans HO.M '22. IMiinier, tieorjre W. : (ibmeester, Ma.s8 HO.'m •Jl!. Kno'" Hon, Harvey : Horton, Kdward A., Gloucester, Mass '.]W>'< '2\, I'ierce, Albion K. ; lieaise, (ieorge ; Hamilton, .James K. ; .McDonald. .Jolin : Gloucester, Mass JIOO.". '2't. Norwood, Georj^e; Aver, .lames S. : Gloucester, Mass .'iOti',' '.'li. Leijjliton, Aiidnnv ; Fait, Walter M.: (Jloueester, Mass 'M>'''' '27. Wouson, William C, : (Jloueester, .Mass IW7T '2t*. Friend, Geor}»e, iV Co. : Gloucester, Mass 30-1 '2[K ( ierring, Frederick : Ciloncester, Mass ".{O^-'i ;Ui. Wonsoii, Frederick (J. : (Jloueester, Mass iM)" :U. I'ow, Charles H.: (Jloueester, Mass tUUtJ :t-,>. Manslield, Alfred: (Jhuicester, Mass :«)'.•;'• ;>!!. Steele, Georj;e : Gloucester, Mass HOIM ;t4. Smith, Sylvanus : (Jloueester, Mass ;{(>'.••"> ",!.">. Whelen, Morris: Gloucester, Mass HO'.'ii W. (Jrady, Thomas: (Jloueester, Mass IW.C 117. Tarr, James G. : (Jloueester, Mass UOl'T ;ti^. Gorman, .lobn E. : (Jloueester, Mass 'MW ;!'.>. Warren, Nicholas : Gloucester, Ma.ss 'Mi)" 4". Hardy, Henry: Gloucester, Mass 310 41. Saunders, John E. : Gloucester, Mass 31U'J 4",'. Hanuan, Kiehard: Gloucester, Mass 310:' 4:!. Morey, Stephen 13. : Deer Island, Me 31(1 •4. WVbb, Soth; Webb,C. H. S. : Deer Island, Me 3l(': 4r>. Staiiles, .lohn : Swan's Island, Me 310i 4(i. I'erkins Hrothers : Gloucester, Mass 31t'" 47. l'ew,,Iohn J., iV: Son: Gloucester, Mass 311' 4p'. Smith &. Oakes : (Jloueester, Mass 3111 49. Walen, Michael : Gloucester, Mass 311" .V.i. I'ettingell, Charles D. : (Jloueester, Mass 311: r>l. Maddox, B., &. Co. : (Jloueester, Mass 3111 oii. Dennis, George, iV, Co. : (Jloueester, Mass 3111 53. Proctor, Joseph O. : Gloucester, Mass 311' ri4. Haskell, Samuel : (Jlouct. ;«44i ;uj:i :»44t; ti4. -.Utii " Mi: ' :ui: tiH. t;'.). :i44- •,».»7" TO. «»H 1 71. 7!i. ;?1HH 1 7:». 74. 'JfJ'X T.'i. '. :t(HM, 7ti. 77. 7H. •.m-: 7!t. HO. ■.mi< HI. H'J. :<0'-i- HH. H4. •M\:> Hr>. ;u»:t'.i h;. ;V14'J H7. HH. :«)r.i >!». '.HI. , .. :uHiH ;>i. ' :u)tM ;»4. ■M':'< !>.-). !tt;. ao-^i ;»7. 1>H. ;«)— J>lt. lOo. •.{Ott;i 101. 102. •.»(«>•'' io:{. 104. :w;»: 105. 10(i. IW.ii' 107. 108. 3101 101). 110. 310:i 111. 11 -J. :uii.'' ii:{. 114. :{io- 1 15. IKi. :uii 117. UH. :?ii;: Hit. li»0. :uii 1-21. Vi'^. •M\- 1-W. 124. ■■; :U'-" ■; :U'i': 125. 12G. luvitH pHHlni-oil (III hfliitH'of tli)« lliiitcil .Stiiti-H — ('untinucd. DtMiiiiHiV A,v*>r: (iliMic«!H(cr, Mhmh WdiiHoii, Williitiii C : 01om:i«Nt«r, Miwm Siiywanl, Kpeit, jr. : Sitywurd, (ioi)r){t>, (iloiiet-Ntor, Miinn.. Snywanl, Dftiiinl: (iluiict>Nter, Mkmh I'ltrminit, WilliHin, 'Jd, St, i'n. : (ilniiccNter, Muhh WoiiHoii A Co. (WoiiHoii HrotherH): (iliiiUM-star, MaitH.... NiirwontI, <)eorgi>, iV Son: (ilouowtor, Miwm \Vliulen, Li'oiiard : avid Low A Co.): (Jloucctter, Muss . .. I^i);liton A Co. : (JlonrcHtcr, MattM Tarr, .Ihiiich ('•., A lirotliur: (iloiicoHtcr, Mums Smith A (iolt : (Jlom-estor, MaMH (-'larko A Somes: (iloiici'MttT, Miimm WoiiHon, John V., A Co.: dllonct'Hter, Muhh I'roctor, A. (1.: (iloiicoHt<>r, Miinh Smith, Aaron; ThomaH, .Joroniu B, : (ilonccHtur, Miimm Hnrrilj, K., A. Co.: Nowhiiryjiort, Mans , Hoardiiian, T. II., A Co. : Newlniryport, Miihm Irt'hind A Tn'futlion : Newlinryiiort, Mums Haylt'y, K., A Son : Nrwbiiryport, Mass Currier, CharicM (). : Nnwlnuyiiort, Mass I'liion Wharf Company : rrovincntown, MasM Central Wiiarf (.'ompaiiy : I'rovincrtowii, Mass Cook, H. A S., A Co.: I'rovincftowii, Mass Freeniaii, F. M. ; I'rovint'etown, Ma.s.s Frt'i'iniin A lliiliard: I'rovini'etowii, Mumm Crofker A Atwood : I'rovinct'town, Muh.s Cook, K. A !•".. K. : I'rovineetown, MasM Tayne, .1. A L. N. : I'rovinictown, Miimm \Vhorf, J'hilip A.: I'roviiifetown, Miwa Lewis, H. A., A Co.: I'rovincetown, Mass Conwell. David : I'rovincptown, MnHS Central Wharf Company : Welllleet, Mass Commercial Wharf Company : Welllleet, Mass Mercantile Wharf Company ': WeUlleet, .Mass Nickerson, Henry: Dennlsport. Mass Nelson A Harlow : I'lynioiilli, Mass Manter A Blackmer : I'ly month, Mass Tower, Abraham H. : Cohasset, Mass Hates, John : Cohasset, Mass Baker A Ellis: Dennisport, Mass Eldridge, Levi : South Chatham, Mass Weekes, D. F. : South Harwich, Mass Small, Caleb : South Harwich, Mass Doane, Valentine: Harwich Port, Mi.ss Baker, T. B. : Harwich Port, Mass Doane, V'., jr., A Co. : Portsmouth, N. H Treilick, C. MorriH : Portsmouth, N. H Frye, .lames: North Haven and Camden, .Mu Tolnian, George: Deer Isle, Mo Willard, E.G.: Portland, Me Jordan A Blake : Portland, Mo Lewis, Whitten A Co.: Portland, Me Dyer, Charles A. : Portland, Me Jordan, W.S., A Co.: Portland, Me Trefethen, George, A. Co.: Portland, .Me Sawyer, J. W., A Co. : Portland, Me Thomos, Chase A Co. : Portlaiiil, Me. Chase, E. H. : Portland and Boothbay, Me Trefethen, C. A H. : Portland, Mu Chase A Cushing: Portland, Me Maddocks, William T. : Sonthport, Me Orne, Freeman : Sonthport, Mo Peine, Moses E., A Co. . Boothbay, Me Hodgdon, Stephen G. : Boothbay, Me P»go. 3124 •M'J7 3l!W 'MW •MM) MM :u:» :ti:i:i :u:ci :n:<*; :n:«7 :u:{s ;ti:K» :ii4o :U42 MV.i MU :U45 :ti4(> :«147 :«I4:» :»i.5o :ti5i :n.-.2 •M'>:\ :ii54 M->:> :U5<; :3 31U4 31U5 31W 311W I si 3464 ALPHA HKTICAL INDEX. AtlltlnvitN priiiliiccd (III lii-liairof the riiili'd .StiitfH— ('i>iitiiiiiiMl. 1'27. LewiM, Allen : Itootlibay, Mo :t|'.*'.) liiH. Hodudoii, Albion P.: Pitotlilmv, Mo Mv'ni) VH). MaddockH, liiUher: Hootlibuy, Mo '.»u\ y.W. Keed,L«vl: Hoothbiiv.Mc :W(i,' 1:11. Itlake, ChnrloH C. : Itootbbav, Mi> W'Hk; i:i'2. McDonnall A Uucc : Uootlibiiy. Mo ;«'->('l i:»;\. Nickormni, 8., A Sons. : Hoothlmv, Mo W'iv:, i:«4. MoCliiitock.Jolin A Co.: IJootlibuy, Me '.Vim; i'Sit. HtinHon, Michael: 8waii'H iHlaiid, Mo It'.'H- VM. McDonald, Lewis: North Haven, Mb :\MW 137. WaHi{att,C.,&Co. : Swan'8 Island, Mo IWlii i;JH. Fitch, JanicH: New London, (Jonn H'JIl 13J). Weaver, C. A., A Co. : New London Conn Ittil i 14(t. Urown,H.A.,A Co. : New London, C'fti :wi;! 14L Harvey, William: Anid's Cove, St.of CanHo. :t'.il I 142. McKachren, Donald : New Town, Kt. of Cantto '.\'i\:> 143. Jacknian, liii'hard : i'ort Mnl<;i'avo Wih't 144. Smith, Thomas Charles: Port Hood Island, C. 13 IWlrt 145. Struhan, Asberry : Auld's Cove, Canso :<'JIH 146. Smith, Nathaniel: Port Hood Island, C. H : 166. Gillis.James: CapeJack.N.S :«2:U» 167. Embree, William : Bear l8land,Can80, N. S 3240 168. Stuart, Charles : Bear Island, Canso,N. S 3241 169. Levanger, Edward : Harbor Bouch. Ci?rnKi»ii. I{ :Wiiii 1%. WuIhIi, Kilwani: hi.w.-r Millonl, N. S ;W((:. :i-.'(il ll»r. Lowiic, L'lmrU-» : Miililln Millonl, N. S :tli(5t! :W(i-.> IIW. Nioliolmiii, NirluiliiH; Tort IIiiMtimjs, St. ofCimso .W)7 HvJdil Jltl>. McKnrlireii, Diiiicaii : CniiniiiMli ('(iiinty, ('. U ;W ;Wo.', •.'(II. MrDoiiald. KodtTi.k: I-i»w I'oint, N. 8 ;W7(t :Wim; 'Hn. McDoiiuliI, Danii'l: Low Point, N. H :W1 W'H)^ 'HrX McKiiiiion, Uoiigulil ; Loiin I'oiiit, N. S :W2 W'iW ■,'04. Moruan, Mosoh C: I lalifux, N. S ;W7:{ :Wlii ■.'M.'i. lJ(Mizl<'V,Kifliaia: Halifax, N..S 3Wfi :wn -JOO. (Jlazobrook, .John : Halifax. N. S ;WH :iyiJ 'i07. JIuvH. William: Halifax, N. 8 :WW) :Wi:! '.'OH. Moiloy William [A.]: NewfoiindlaiHl '.J'iH'i :W1I 'i(t!>. (Jrimn, Levi: St. .loliii'M. Xowfoiinaiauil ;«'iK{ :W1.-. ','1(1. L'ol.b, Hemy A. : St. .lolinV, N.nvfoiiiullaml WiSA ;iaiti 'ill. lirowii.Cvi'eiiiiiH: TniiaHKv.Newfomiilliiml IWA'i ;Wlrt '-'12. Fitzgerald, William : St. .FoIhi'm, NtnvfoiiiuJhind :WHti ;W1H -nx Niito, Cliarlfs H. : (iloiicoKter, MaH8 :Wf^7 :i*iyit '^14. OakU'y,.loH«ph : (Jloiicustcr, .Miimh [Vifl :JiWi» 'il.'V. MiUonald.Mutiu'w: CloncoHtiT, MtwH :J2H.-i H'2'W yiG. WalNli, Patrick: St. .IoIiu'h, Newfoundland U2o!t :(".WIl 217. llro\vn,.IanifH : St..lolin'H, Nowfutiiidlantl ;WHi» :«22.^ '.'IS. McKiniion, .John II. : (;ioueL>8ter, Mass 3'JlMl :i-i2t; '.ilU. Cnrzoii, .John : Pictoii, N. S :wyi H22ti 'J20. DeniiiH, .loliii G. : tilouct stor, Ma«H H'2111 ;Wi7 'i'il. Li-igliton, Andrew : (lloucester, MasH IV.'D'J :{22H ','22. Reeves, Robert J.: (Jloiicester, Mass :t2y:i :i2:Ul •22:J. Kirby, William H. : GionceHter, Mans '.mA '.Vi'M ','24. HiiitB, Uvron : Gloucester, Mass ;12!*") :i232 2ii5. Greenleaf, William : Gloucester, Mass '.m't ;\2'X\ 'i'ifi. Kiiowlton, Harvey, jr. : Gloucester, Mass ;<29() :?2:M ',"27. Murphy. Dennis C. : ( Jloucester, Mass •.12i>7 :»2H4 22f^. Ascah, John S. : GaH|u- Hay :i2y7 :{2:^.^ 229. Asselin, Benjamin: GasixS :»21»8 ■,\'i:W, 2:10. McCaulev, Luke : Douijlastown, Bay of Gasp.- 321K* :{237 2:U. Howell, John : Sandy Beach, Cu8i»6 :wy :tt:«8 232. Howell, William : Sandy Beach, Gasjidi :5:U)(I :i2:i!t 2:W. Stewart, Charles: New Carlisle MOl ;{2:«t 2:U. Poole, Christopher C: Rockport, Mass 3302 3240 235. Terry, Russell D.: Gloucester (of Nova Scotia) 3303 3241 '236. Herrick, William : Swan's Island, Me 3303 3242 '2.37. White, Thomas H.: Gloucester, Mass 330.'. •.1243 '238. Lee. Charles: Gloucester, Mass 3307 3244 239. McPhee, .Josejih : Gloucester, Mass 3308 324.'i 240. Parsons, William, 2d : Gloucester, Mass 3.309 3240 24L Pool, Solomon : Gloncester, Mass 3309 3247 '242. Swim, Benjamin : Gloncester, Miiss 3309 3248 '243. Carter, Charles 1'.: Gloucester, Mass 3310 3249 '244. Thurston, Wintbrop : Rockport, Mass 3311 3250 '245. Colson. James A.: ( iloucester, Muss 3312 3'251 '24n. Coas, Henry G.: Gloucester, Mass 3:M2 32.''.2 '247. Tupper, Joseph J.: (Mouccster, Mast, 3313 32.''i3 248. Joyce, Hanson B.: Swan's Island, Mc 33].". 3253 '249. Carter, Addison : (ilonce.stcr. Mass 331tJ 3254 '250. McLean, Joseph : now of (ape Neyru, X. S 331"^ 32.55 •251. Goodwin, A. E. : Xowliurvport, Mass :!318 325.5 '2.52. Tburlow, George D.: Xewburyport, Mass 3319 ■.{2.5(i '253. Cook, Benjamin F.: (Jloucester, Mass 3319 325'i "254. Blatcbford, Benjamin F. : Gloucester, Mass 33"2() 3'2,57 '255. Roberts, Thomas E.: Gloucester, Mass 33^20 32.'»8 25(5. W'onson, J. Warren, Adams, Joseph : Gloucester, Mass 3320 3'2(>0 '2.57. Martin, Charles : (Jloucester, Mass 33'22 32C1 '258. Parsons, William, 2d: Gloucester, Ma.ss 33'24 3'2C2 '2.59. Jacobs, Solomon : G loucester, Mass 3324 320.2 '2f.0. Pierce, Albion K. : Gloucester, Mass 3.325 32«>3 •2»)0a. Elwell, William : (Jloucester, Mass 33'2tJ :!-264 '2i;i. Sinclair, Peter: (Jloucester, Mass ;'>3'2T ifi,i iU„l t' i 1 It Ml m 'Ml 3466 ALPIUDRTICAL INDEX. AfHilnvitH prodnceil on l)«linlf of tho rnitod 8tat«H— Coiitiniiuil. 'HVi, HowK, William I).: (ilou('«Nt«r, ManH '.W- '2iY,\. Hownnl, Oliver K.: Olnuct'Hter, Mumh X\\!:> 2t>l. Collinn. .JoHi-ph W. : GluaccHter, MaNH '.VX\<> ytk'i. Oleiiii, John: York, Mo :«:»:;•.' 'JVA't. IIiitcliiiiHoii, John I'.: Krid^uport, Conn :i:i;t:'. W7. Mulmiar, James : I'ort llnwkeNbury, N.S '.VXW •Jti". JamcHon, Jolin S.: (iioiicHstcr, >inHii 'X\X, Wi). AnilrrMon, Jamnn L.: GloiicoHter, MasH :t3:!.'> i^O, LtnviH, .IfHHo : (iloncoHter, Mass |{:t:t' !271. KarmtT, Samiiol M.: (iluurontor, MaHH XV,\'.> 'J7'i. MiDonuhl, Aloxanilor : rruvinnotowii, Miimh X\\i< 'JT.\, Covfiy, Alonzo : SwampHcott, Maw) :i:MI iJ7l. WiJkinH, Edward N.: .Swampscott, Mass :njl tiT'i. StapieH, .loliii 8.: Hwan'a Inland, Maine XXI' '27»). McNeil, I>aniel : Cape Breton, Nova Scot la :i:u;'. •J77. rarklnuHt, Clinrlns K.: (Jloncoster, Ma.s9 XU.\ V78. Tarr, Zebulon : (JlonccNter, MawM XX\ I 271). Halmon, D, C. iVU. : flloneoHtpr, MasH XXW V>80. CoKMwell, William : Salem, MaHH :«:«.> A. H. WauHon, tlie: Jndemunt in tlio ciwe of X.\i" A. .). Franklin, the : JuilKment in tho cane of XV.)\ Alexander, Jaine« W. : Affidavit '214. Mrititth case 1:M"i Anderaon, .lames L. : AtHdavit '2«>lt, United States case XXXi Answer on behalf of tho United States of America to the case of Her Britan- nic Miijesty's jjovernment : Articles of tht 'I'reaty of Washington relating to the lishenes cited II.' Uights possessea oy American lishermeii independently of the treaty 1-" Limitation uf tho width of the inontlis of hays anil gulfs, the United States insist on certain rules I'Jn IiiNtrnction to colonial antlioritics in Htit! with reference to inshore-tishing limitations IvJi' rrivileges accorded to British subjects by the Treaty of Washington l-'l liight to admit fish and tish-oil duty free into Canada of inappreciable im- portance I'i'-i Advantages which tho United States derive from the provision of Article XVIII I-,'.' Her Majesty's (iovernment are required to show tho valne to American lishermen of the inshore iisheries, as separated and distinguishe l>eterioration of the mackerel fisheries l'2t; Herring fishery in British waters 12l) V.W Mr. Stewart Campbell, quoted 1:51 Sir John A. Macdonald, quoted 1:11 Mr. Power, of Halifax, (luoted i:'-'^ r«i!'' :»n-.>- :»:i-.'.i :r.<;tM ;»:»:i'j :»:»;i:! :»3:t;! :»;j:i.-. :»3;t.-. :<:i:i- :i:»:t'.t -.CIlH :i;mi •.i:ui :«:tij ;»:«»:'. :»:u:: •.m 1 XM » :»:m.% :»>- :f.wi i:u:. :»:»:!:. 11'.' eatv l-^n l-ii. l-.'n K'l iablti iiii- Vi-: )1" Artii'le IMJ Viiu'rican i-j:; VZ' vs.'. extent ill \i' i-Ji i-j.' Vii, 12-2U F: HritiMh evidence. Testimony of f*:} witnesses 2I3-1(KX» (J: 3I'.» alliilavits produced in support of the caseoftJreat Uritaiii. lO'.M-lliV) H: Olllcial correspondence, H27 to 1"'72. showing (■ncroachmeuts of Unitetl States tishernieu in liritish waterH. ( For list, see Kn- crouchments) 1 1.'>7-1508 I : Heturn showing riuantities ami valueH of tish exports and im- ports of Newfoundland, \(V.>-irir.» ,1 : .SpeechoH of counsel, iucludiuK the tinal ar^unuMits 1.'j21-18'4.') K: liriefon hehulf of (ireiit Britain, in reitiv to the United .States brief ; inH7-l!10() L: Kvidenceon behalf of the United States rj(»7-21»7.') M: Allidavits produced on behalf of the United States yi>77-33l!J N: r.xtracts from minutes of (executive council, Newfoundluml, .July 7, 1H71 33411 O: Statistics produced on behalf of the Uiiite'X> Ascah, John S. : Allldavit 22"*, United States case 32'J7 Ashby, IJenjamiii ; Kvidence on behalf of the United States 23'<2-23110 Asselin, noiijandn: Aflidavit 22!(, United States case 32!H Atwood, Nathaniel E. : Evidence on behalf of the United States.. llHl-2(»2«, 2i»47-2041l Award: $12,000,0(10 claimed by (Jreat Britain on account of Canadian tishery. 100 $1,440,000 claimed on account of Newfoundland fishery lOS Opinion of Mr. Dwight Foster on the amount of the 10 DiHoent of Commissioner Kellogg 7*i Ayer, James S. : Atlidavit 2r>, United .States ca.so 30011 Ayer, James .S. (Dennis & Ayer) : Al)idavit< 50, United States case. 3124 B. Habsou, D. C. & H. : Allidavit 2711, United States case 3344 Habson, Fitz J.: Evidence on behalf of the United States 2'.t.'>t)-207ri BabsoD, Horatio: AtHdavit 20, United States ca.se 3040 B.aguall, John : Affidavit 140, British case 120,') Baird, Prof. S. F. : Extracts from his Maine report, qiioted in the Britisli case '.H Extracts from his report on the sca-iisheries of New Eng- land in l.-'7l and 1872 220-231 Extract from his report on the Maine tisheries for 1874.. 231 Evidence on behalf of the United States 27a'>-281f),2-'21-2840 Bait : I'rivllege of jmrchasing in ports of the Dominion ; motion to exclude award on this behalf 7, 40 The Commission excludes any award on that account 7, 43,44 Scarcity of, in United States waters a.sserted in British case OU Value, in Newfoundland, of privilege of procuring, asserted, 105 Denial that the privilege to x)urchase is contenii)lated in the treaty.. 123 Right of purchasing : motion to exclude award therefor, and debate thereon. Sei>tember 5 and 0, 1877 1.">3'J-1588 i I :■ t m ', :,-*- a 3468 ALPHAHKTICAL INUEX. Itaker, CliriHtoplit'r; Alllilitvit HI. ItritUli i-nw^ l:ii>.i Maker, .litiiicN : Kviil<-nc:i |{ak«>r, T. I). : AOliIivit lii7, 1'nitt'ti Htutt'N cunx :)l7i: HiikiT \ KlIiMi Aniduvit lOV, I'iuUmI Stiittm niHo UKI Mitiiiit'i'iiinii. Sii' AlfMiiitliT : K\trui't fniin (liM|iitti'li to KurHiri^v, NovhiiiIhsi i:.,I^M ' lit.- DiHpiitcli til Kuil tl, .loliii : Allldavit lO.'i. Uritinli ciimh Iv.".''. Hurry, .Iuiiiun: HtutciiiuiitH ot't>\|iortN of coal, huII, ami liiiiiln-r troiii L'utiailu totli« Uiiifed StatfM, lH(i7-lH7(» (HritiHh eviileiuM-) lod.VKC:. nat(>H, .Toliii : Atlltlavit lo], I'liilfd Mtaicn cuMe :tl7ii Hay of Fiimly : Ijinlii-liouscH in Id— HayH : l.iiio drawn iVoni lii'adlaud tu headland wlifii Ichn than His niilcH a])art l'.^l Bayloy, K. (1{. Hiiyli-y i» Soni: Atlldavit rtl, I'niti'd SlateH < ano :U4',' Hearne, (J<'orni>: Atlldavit *J4, 1'nitfd Staten cawi IKMm Hoaton, .lom>|>h : Kvidi'iiitt on India If of (ireat llrltain 10'iO-lOWI Hea/.ley, Hiidianl: AHIdavit 'iO't, I'liited Statt'8 can*) IWti Hennott, TlioniiiH U. : Kvidtuicu on Ixdialf of (ireat Hi'ltain 7>0'i-7>W2 Hennett, Wni. (jeor^n: Atlldavit lil, HritiMli cuhu 117)'> HnuninK, Hoiiry : Atlldavit (i:i. HritiHh cuhu IP'* Iksrry, Tlioman : Atlldavit a, I'nitwl .StatuM cuhu '.'IHi Hortean, KranriH: Atlldavit 71, HritiMJi cime ll.-il H«theli. John : Atlldavit '•.'75, HritiHh oaH« Mil HiKeluw, .luiiioH W. ; Kvidcnoo in hehalf of (Jreat Hritain tNlMi.-l itishop, Oeor^o : Atlldavit Itw, HritiHh cam» V.if*7 HIake, Charh-M C: Atlldavit 1*^1, 1'liitcd StatttM caHt) :Wo:i Ulake, Levi (.Jordan «.V lilake) : AtTldavIt li:<, United KtuteH caNO 'Mf*.\ HIatchford, Hfiijaniin 1'. : Aflldavit '2.'>4, United States cbho Xi'io StateuiontH taken from tbo books of (iloiicenter ilrius :!;!i;i-:u7r. Bliintschli : On the limits of nniratiinu jurisdiction l*):t Boardman, Isaac 11. (T. II. Hoardman «.V Co.): \tTlduvit 7'.), United .States case 'MM') Holman, Robert Henry : Atlldavit lUD, British ca' 14Gfi Honaventure, Qaspe : Address of citizens of, to Commander Campbell, Octo- ber 18, 1«52 1474 Bonia, Maurire : Aflldavit 7, in rebattal, British i-aso :<447 BoBdet, Peter : Affidavit 141, British case I'iW) Boston : Statement of exports and imports of lish and tisli-oil, l!::<4r) to 187t> . :i:So4,:ur>ri liouchard, Hamiiel: Aflldavit 2.12, British case i:t*i4 Boudrean, Ilyppolyte : Aflldavit '2'.^, British case 1:15'.) Boudreaa, .lulien : Atlldavit *2'M>, British case i:U')l Boudrean, Nathaniel : Atlldavit 'i29, British case i;iCii Bower, William Framis: Aflldavit'2'i4, British case i:i.')f* Bradley, James : Evidence on behalf of the United .States Ilt07-U)'i5 lirand, John I. : Atlldavit i:U, British case l'.25-J Brett, Judge: His opinion on the limits of maritime jiirisitiction i|iioted 15H Brief on behalf of Her Majesty's Governnnsnt in reply to the brief on behalf of the United States: I. Extent of jiirisdiition seaward: Lord St«')well cited 1H87 Kent's Commentaries cited IHijC II. Jurisdiction over b.iys: Convention of IHIH 18.'^7 Renunciation on part of the United States lf''"i Construction contended for on part of (treat Britain 1H8!S Construction contended for on part of United States If^fV Views of American statesmen: Mr. Stoveiison, lrt41; Mr. Everett, 1H44; Mr. Webster, 1K52 ; Mr. Hush, IH.^:! ; Senator Sonic, I8.V2 ; Senator Soward, 18.5'2 ; Senator Tuck, 1852 1-^S8-18J>J Instructions from Mr. Mitchell 18911 Joint High Commission, views of on Convention of 1818 IHlt.'i Mr. Fish to Mr. Thornton, 1871 189:! III. .Solution of the question : Pothier, Obligations, cited 1*'.M,1897 AMMtAIUrnCAL INDKX. 3460 3l7t, 3171 14t.- U71I 147:i IV.'. 1 1(m;.'.-1(>7:i :U7" Vi\ :U4'.' :uni:. lO-id-ll^'l :i27ti 1 17)1 117'' ll-f, Mil (•.7:M!.-I l'iH7 :uh:! r . :i:i(i.|-3:i7r. lr. i:{t;4 i:W)i i;iGH iit07-ii)'2r> l-25v> 15S 1^87 18.<7 lf^8?! 18H(* tt, 189:! i8i»:! 18iV,i l-'.M,18i>7 lliii't'iiii lit'liiill'ot III r Mii,jcKt>'H (iiivi'riiiiivnt in n |il.v to tli<' liiii-r|ioitH, cited 1HU4 Vuttei.citwl im* T. I). \Vii..lH.'v,ntl'lU'tN, ritod liii>5 Lord Kilt'iilHiroiiKli.citiMl IHUTt Lord Chii'f .IiiHliw* Tindul.citfd IHlKi lltTtNlflt'H TrcaticH, citi'd l»ftK» I'hilliinorr'H liiti-riintioiiai Liuv, cited ISOTt IIcc'h Admiral tv Ki'iiortH, caH«t id the Africatie, uiled ItKNi Hcv.'iim. act of' I71l!t ( IJiiitcd MtateH), cited IMW .Iiidiciar.v act of 17'.l| (I'liited StftteH),clteil 18'.HI lto\)iiiHiiii'H lki<|iiirtN, case III' llie Anna, cited IrtifJ IN'. 'I'lie wiii'iIm " liavM." "I'reek.M," iinil "liarliois": Mr. .jHMliceSli.iv, cited IftC. l-'.f*, Him CMiielJuHtice Marshall, cited lrt<»7 ri)thier,Oldij{atioiiH, cited iniW Lord Hale, cited l«Ol» Chill Jnstici) Minsliall, cited 1««> Attornej-Oeneral of tliu I'nited .States, cited iJJOU .Indjjment ol the Hiijirenie Court, of the l,'nited States, lited l^W ]ve|iort of coinniittee of Coiijjress, Noveinher, l'()7, cited 11)00 I list ructions from Mr. Madison, cited IINN) Sir Leoline .lenUins, Ititir*, cited I'JtHl Aznni, cited I'.MKt, ISM)l IMifTendorf , cited llUtI Vattel, cited ISHU Kent , cited 11M>1 Case of the Queen r«. Kevn, cited v 1908 Lord Chief .Instice of Knjjland, cited 1908 Sir Uohert Phillimoro, cited lOOU Cu8« of the Fruiiconia, cited 1903 Uaso of the l>irect United States Calile Compiiny 'c Tiie An>?lo- Americati Telej^rapli Company and otiior respondents, cited .' 1903 JndKnieiit of Lord Blackburn, cited 1904 V. MimninKof the word "bay" IDOti Concliision lUtM! Brief on behalf of the United StateH upon the i|iiestion of the extent and liuiitH of the inshore lishericH and territorial waters on tlie Atlantic coast of British North America : Articles relating to the tishericH in the treaty cited 139 Treaty of I'aris (I'ebrnary 10, 17():5) cited 141 Treaty of Ghent, Decendier ^4, If* 14, rofcrreil to 142 Convention of October iJO, IHH, cited 14'i Construction i»nt on article 1 by the ^{overninent of the Dominion, and view of the American (Sovernment 142 Correspondence in September, 1"^24, Mr. Brent to Mr. Addinnton 143 Corresi)ondence between Mr. Aildin^ton and Mr. Adams cited 143 Correspondence between Mr. Bankhead and Mr. Torsyth, in 183t), re- ferred to 143 Circular issued by the Secretary of the Treasury to American lisliernn-n inl83(i 113 Letter from Lieutenant-Comuiander Paine to Mr. Forsyth, Deccmbci •Jl>, 1839, cited 144 Correspondence between Mr. Forsyth and Mr. Stevenson, in February, 1841, cited '. 144 Mr. Stevenson to Lord I'almerston 144 Seizure of the American schooner Wasbiuj^ton, May Id, 1843, special nicssaRe of President Tyler 1 4r> Correspondence between Mr. Everett and Lord Aberdeen 1 l.')-l.''(0 Seizure of American schooner Argus, Angust, ^844 1 48 Mr. Everett to Mr. Calhonn, March 25, 1845 l.")0 Mr. Everett to Mr. Buchanan, April 23, 1845 151 Mr. Crarapton's notice to Mr. Webster, July 5, 18,52 151 Notice issued by the Provincial Secretary of Canada, August 23, 18,">2.. 1.52 ConventiQii of February 8, 18,53 153 mA I' •" li .•J470 ALI'IIAIIKTICAL IN1>KX. Itrirfoti Iti'liiilf of llii> rmlnl HtiitfH MiMiii till' i|m>HiiiMi of tlir I'xlt'iit iiimI liiiiilN lit' till' iiiwliori* ll> liiNiriii'liiiim t'lir llitt Kiiiiluino of iiuvul oltlci'rH on tlio (HiiMt, of th« North AiiK-rii'iiii I'loviniTM I Ml l.iiciiniiiK MVMtt'iii iiiHlltiiti'il liY lli<« Ciiiuttlinn Oovi'M|Miiiilcn<'o lii'twiTii Mr. KIhIi uihI Mr. 'i'lioriitoti. ri>Hiilliii)( from IIh* tli'ciNiiiii of tint ('iitiiiiliitii (iovurniiunit to tHNiut no licittiM'N to (orin to tlitt ()ovitriMir-(>otii>rai ITm McinoriiiKliun from tin* Fiiri-i((ii Olllcti ritcil I.'iti " Wliiit iiro liuyH of llrr MiiJi'Hty'n ilominioim," aiiMioritii'a citud I'l*! CiiNo of tint Friinconiii, Novmilior, lH7(t ; Kit; Sir Kolii-rt I'liililmon^ i|notcil l.'iii Mnillt'y, ,1., i|iioli', .1., i|iioti' Kill Mrtolun, l>i|iloniuti*Mlit la Mir I(i:i Manti'fiMiilli', Droit «-t DuvoirH iIi-n r.utlont, NiMitri'N Hit AnioH, liiH rilition of Mnnniiv^'H Law of NatiouM Kit Murtun'H I'ri^ciH dn Droit duN fioim MuderiieH du rKiiroiio Iti'i Dit CuHsy, I'liUMi's i;t ('aiiMDH Ci^ii'lintN hW> ConcliiNion tw to Hut ri^litHof tint DHlii-rnii'ii of the L'nitod Stutes ; mani- f'Ht dnty of the ('ommiitHloniirH l('i<> lirier, ( IiiuIun II.: Kvidcncit on lii'luilf of the Unititd .Statvn 34ri(i-24riH Itriord, I'etiir: Atllduvil '2'Mt, HritiNh ciiho KMi!) HritiHli SiiltJoutH: Their advantagcH in the IJnitud UtatuH wateru conBidered in thn ]iritii«li caHit 1)7 Hrochii, I'it-rro: Artldavit y:»H, Britiwh cuhh i:»7l Hrown, Cyrenius: Aflldavit 'Jll, I'uitud HtateH cuse '.\'M> Urown.II. A. A. Co.: Allldavlfc 140, United StateH cane 32i:i Hrown, JameM: Allldavit yi7. United Htates eaHe 3281* Brown,. JoHejdi F. : K\ demo on behalf of the United States \*S90-240I Brown, William : Kvidenceon behalf of Oroat Britain Vinh- ir.r. 1 '.' \M IMi \:a\ ir.ti K.7 ir.7 ir.- ir.vj-nw 1»V.> i«i;! Id: I ic.:i it'.i Kit Um KMi maui- km; 2iri(t-24r.i* i;Mii) cretl ill l>7 i:«7i :«-^f. •jar.i 32HI-U Ciiiiiiila: Htrittly ilfi'liiMt ii( Aiiifrieuti iiiiliiiru llH|ii hotniniiin of II liiNliiini llNliiTit'H— Iii'ikIIiiiiiIn uikI liity* KI'.) 171 I'xttnit iiiiil \ ikiiitt dt' N»ii-lUlii'ili>N ''7 AilviinliiKi'N iIciIm'iI Iiv Aiiifrlfiiii riti/.i'im Irinn lint Ni'ii-IUIn'tii'M uf: 1. l.ilM'ilv of lUliliiK III lliKUli witliTH Hf* 2. hilioiiy to litiitl lor |iiir|ioNi 11, l'nrlii'l|iitiloii in liii|»i'ovt>ni«iil rtNiiltiiiKfroni llnlMTy |irot*>i'tiuii M« 'I'ulilcH of ti .Intry priHlni'tH ol' tint Uoniiiiloii from IMU* to IH7r> IlKI-l 12 TitblitH of llHln>rv |iro AtlvnntiiKt'H to, of ti fri'o innrkot for IIhIi in tlin I'liitxil HIhIon lid Dominion of, HtittciiKMit of li.sliiiiK licunm-H iNMiiiul to AnioriL-iiii IImIi- iiiK vfMwlH in IrtCd! r.t7-20ri Stiiti-meiit of lici'iim'H, Ac, IH17 2(1(1-212 IWW 21:1-217 Cunnin>(, W. I'.: ConiiiinnilinK IIIh MitJHHty'M Ship AlliKnlor. Letter tu AiU iiiiral Oule, Novumlmr si, 1H27 14.' 7 Cnrey, .TnmcM: AHitlavit 2r'0, Itritmli cum* Mil Carew, Tlioman: Adl.lavit IM, HritlHli raHw 1212 Carrigaii, Oliristopiicr: Alliilavit 1H<), I'niteil HtatimcaHe :i2(i(i Cnrrigan, Kufim : Alllilavit lll.''i, I'liited StatuH iiihi) :<2)i'i C'arHon, litdtert : Allidavit :n2, liritiitb ciiHe 1 14-< Carter, AddiHon : ADidavit 2411, United Staten cunu :i:ilti Carter, Charles F, : Allidavit 24:i, United Statett easo :i:n(» Carter, John : Ailldavit 244, HritiHh eiiste i:i7'.» Caso of Her MaJesty'H (iovornment: Introduction : Negotiations in 17K1, Tieaty of I'nris 7h Negotiations ot (iheni, 1H14 7i» Convention of 1818, Article I cited 7!» Negotiations for reciprocity, 1847 ; signature of treaty, 18.')4 >*l Revival of convention of 181H 81 Licensing system adopted in 18611 and abandonctl in 1870 82 Joint High Commission in 1871 82 Fishery articles of the Treaty of Washington 83 Acts jiassed to enable the fishery articles of the Treaty of Washington to be carrietl into effect ''i't Privileges conferred on the United States citizens by the Treaty of Washington, in addition to those conferred by the eonvention ot 1818. 80 Part I — Canada ; L Extent and value of Canailian lishories 87 II. Advantages derived by United Ktates citizens: liberty of lishing in liritish waters "<8 Number of United States lishing ves-sels frequenting IJritish waters. 88 American niackcrol-lishing in liritish waters JX) Estimates of the annnal catch of Americans in liritish waters Ul American capital embarked !>2 Deteriorated condition of United States fisheries !I2 Liberty to land for the purpose of drying nets, curing fish, Ac '.•2 Transshipping of cargoes, and obtaining supplies, Ac IM Formation of lishing establishments '.'4 Convenience of reciprocal free market '.'.'• Participation in improvements resulting from the lisheriea protec- tion service in Canada Or) III. Advantages derived by British subjects : liberty of fishing in United States waters and other privileges connected therewith W Professor Baird'a report 98 Extent of concession embodied in the Keciprocity Treaty IH 3472 AI.PII/UiK.TK'AL INI»KX. (,'iiiM< iif Hit Mt^li'aty'n (iiiM L'liMtomN riMiilHnlon liy I'liitctt Htutt-M In favor of ('iiniMlii |i"i Comi'IiimIoii : Aiiioiint of i'oiii|M-iiitalioii cUIiiuhI In r)'M|M<<'t of tint Do- lllillloll of CliniKlH |lNi I'.irt ll.-N«twfoiiiiil!anil : I. liiiriNliiollori 1111*1 ili>M'ri|ilioii of Ni-wroiindlaiHl HnlM'rli'a. lOo Viiinc of tlitf Nt<\«foiiiMlliiiiit ililiriit'it Ml llll|IOttltllClt of llllll III.' II. AilviiiitiiucM ilfilvi'il by I'lilti'il HtHtfN itlli/.iuiN : llin iMitlri* friMxIoiii of lli« liiHliorn lUlii-iicN Ill : ViiliiK of llitt I'liiii'i'HHioii to |iiiiimI to tlifiii lor till' hhIk oInmiiiII InNatioii clitiniiMl in rript'ct of tb>t colony of Ni«wfoiiiHlUnil Ii>- Sniiiiiiury. — Total itinoniit of lonipcimution rlitinnil by Ih'r MaJi-Hty'N UovorniiMMit on bcbiilf of CimukIii itinl N)iwfoiinInm', uml i'rinco Kdwunl Maml I(tl>-ll-.' AiiiK'X It.— (jiiantitiitH ami valix^N of articlxM i*x|iorti'n KaiiM'an iNlanilN toCajiit Kitcv, uiid thfiicu iiurtb tuTwilliUKute, iiu'liiHive, iHtW to l'-74 lV^ Annex C— C'rimim rt'tiiriiH, not r«>|Mit:tA, WM 1 Hiit vico-adiniralty court of: K«ftiirn of American vesHeli proH- ecnted for viohition of Convention of IHH; daleil Octo- ber (i, H.Vi 147;! ChuKe, K. II.: Allidiivit I'.'d, United HtatcH cam) :UIU Cbase, M. M. (CliaHu A CiiHliinn): Atlldavit Vi'i, United Status cauo lUHit CbaHe, Steplien H. ; Allldavit 11, United Stati-H caso ;JOl'.' CliUHe, W. H. (TboniaH, Cbamt A- Co.) : Atlldavit ll!l, United StuteH caso.... :iliMi Cheney, 8. F. : Evidence on behalf of the I'nited Htatca lOl.'i-lDr.'J Chivnrie, Capt. 8imon : Kvidence in behalf of (Jreat Hritain 24:1-2^1 Chiverie, Alex.: Atlldavit l(i, HritiHb ca«o 1114 Cbouinard, iHnnc: Allldiivit 'i'.VJ, KritJHh ciiHe Ili7:t ChriHtian, William H. : Atlldavit 271, UritiHh ciimo 1401; ChurcbiH, Howard M. : Kvidence on behalf of the United States 2H49-28r>4 Clark, Oeor({c O.: Evidence on behalf of the United States 24()'J-2471 Clark, Georfie, Jr. (Clark &. Somes): Atlldavit 74, United States case 3l4ii Coas, Henry O. : Atlldavit 24(>, United States cose 3:112 Cobb, Henry A.: AIHdavit210, United States case 32«4 Cochrane, Couiniander, of Her Majesty's ship Sappho : Kxtract from dispatch of, to Vice-Admirul Seymour, October :i, 1851 140(1 Extract from report to Vico-Admiral Funshawe, June If*, 1870 14114 Cockbnrn, Chief Justice, opinion of, on question of headlands, bays, and marine limitH l'>'' Cod fishery : Exclusively carried on in the open sea I2:i Of Newfoundland 183-18.'. C'oggios,Livin(;8ton: AOJdavit 2l'U, BritiHh case 1405 Ciirrie, Carrie, , Carrie, • lurier, <'ur/,on, CiiHliinp Cutler, 18.'H , Uutts, K tracts »H^ llHI 101 111- Itt:. III. It '.17 It"'' , W y in- 'h |||- kll r.l lii'.l-ll'.' •»•- t«. Ill Ill • • • • rth in-in IUk; teit :ur.-.' lU. :utw ... \im-wi- 1 nor. 110- - • • 1 ti>;! ■OH- ilo- in:'. :ti'.n :u'.f.! ;j(il-J :ti'.to iin.vior.it •i4;»-2Hi nil ... \:\r,\ 14(m; ar^49-'i8r.4 '2Ui'J-'217l 3140 •.V.U'-' •J2H4 itr.li i4f)t; iiiiti uai and 1 r>' I • - • Vi". . i83-if>\, I'lllti'il Mluli'D fifui ,,,». CiillliiN, Willluiii : AlllMiivll II-. Ill null iikx«> CoUiiti, .liMiii'H A. : Allliliivll 'i\'t, I'lilti'tl HiuicH I'linM. ., ...... .... ('iilllllll'll'llll IIiImIIiIiII^i-m (O IIi<< I'iiIIi'iI Slidint linI willlill tlin Nrit| ( |||«> (■'•'Illy : Motliiii III' IliK I'lilli-il Htiit«>i I'liiiiitr! iiml Aki'IiI iitkiiitt tlii<(.'oiiiiiiliiMli>!i to rtili' llii'li I'ki'hi' Xillll 'I'lii' inolKiii III till' riiili'il Htiiloa Kritiili'tl liy lli« ('i)IiiiiiIn»Ii)|| iniikiiiiiiiiiiKlv rimiini'n-liil NVIinri'C iiiipikii.v ol' Wtllil.M'i, Muni. : AilMavIt tCi, I'liltoa Htitli'M rtiM)> ('itiiiliiti, Tliiitiiiii : AtlliliiN il ■.'I-. Itritiitli iiimk ('•iiiU'.v, .1 1 ill II : Allliliivll '.), I 11 1 1 I'll Slitli'>« riiNt). , <'iiiili'> , .loliii, Jr. : I'lviili'iHi' nil lii'li.ili III llii< riiih'il Htiktim ( 'oil rail. lii'iiiKi' : .Mllilitvil ■■•'>. iliitUli ciini' ritiiiiiv,,liiini'N: Allliliiv it )i, Milli-li caii' Ciinwiiv, KiUmiiiI A. : Allliliivil '.''.'I, lliititli ciiiNt <'iiii\M ll, HiiM'! : Allliliivll '.):l, rmti'il .>tiiti"< nii«i< ('iMiK, iliiijuiiiiii r. ; Allliliivll '.'.'>:i, I iiilt'il .•«tiiii'« I'liNM liviliclH l> nil lll'illlll III' I III' I Ml It'll St III I'M Cook, v.. V. (K. v. A K. K. Clink : AtlliliiMt "'.•, I iiilid .S|iitt'« rune Cnnk, Oi'iiili'i'v : Allliliivil '7, III ititli riiMc Cnnk, lli'iii V : IMili'iur on III ll. I II' nl I III' I'll il I'd Ml at en Cook, II. A S, A Co. : Allliliivll ":>. liiiliil .SnUuii tiiiM) Cook, '1 lioiiiaH ('.: Alllilavit I'.H, Hiitj^li niHi' Alllilavit 174, riilttiii .StatfH i .ixo Kn idi'iiri' on lii'liall' of tlii' I'nitiul 8tulim Allltliiv it 'i'H'i. lli'itiMli cast' Alllilavit '.••.'ll, Ki'illHli I ;iNii Alliiliivit ','•,'", IliitiNli ram« Coiiulilan, (,'liiirli'H; AniilavitHoi, I'liiu'crnlnKi'iii'i'ourliiiHMilN of riiitetl HtiitoH liHlit'i'inrii, . la nun I' V 'J I, I ■*:!'< Conn.M'l I'm- liii'iit lliilalii lirt'ori' tin' CoiiiinUsJon ; N>iiiiitintii)ii ol' MfnurN. I ton 1 1 1', 'I'lioniNon, Win If way, liiivii-w. iinil \Vt«atln'rlin I'ortlK' I'nilnl StatcM lii'loic thi'CoininlnNniti : Nominal ion of Mctirt. 'I'ri'M'iit anil l)aiia H|HTcln'M of ( si'f l)aiui, Pouti't', FimtiT, 'riioiiiKon, 'i'reni'ot, NVeutli- I'llie, anil White way ) CniiNiim, .laini'H W. : Alllilii\ it :tl7, llritiili casi' ('out nil', ilii|itiKtr : Allliliivil TJl'i, Itritinli niho Coiitntc, .loHi'|ili : Kvnli'int' on lirlialf ol (iicat Hritain ('ovi'y, Aloii/o : Alliilavit '.^7:1, I nili'il .siatcH casn Cniiii', li. (i. : Alllilavit 4, I'nitt'il Slati't* r.'isi' CiiM'il, CliailcH: Kviili'ino on lu'lialf of (iii-at lit i tain Cricliton, William ; .Mliilavit 147, ItritiNli rano CriHiio, .MieliiiDl : Alllilavit 47, HiitiHli iuki' ADIiluvit I*i4, I'niti'il >S|iiIi>h laNH Cook, William O. CminitM', I'lancis : (.'oniiU'i', lialtiiul : 3173 fug*. :i:m.'i :w4i> :i.i;lo 11-1 :i;il'j 7 10 T. 41, II :u«ii : 101 If, •,'7'i'.» I'.'O'.I lo;i'.> I.I.V. :iti;i lUI'.l :ii.-.7 I'.'OI •••07 1 :ii.'.;i r.cy. ■A-U7 V71I i:t.v,t i:r.4 i:ii:o 'i'-il '•J.V WiiG .•711 Critchct, Gt'orun : Atlldavit Iff*, I'nitt'il .>«lali'M ra.Ht) CrittL'tiiltii, K. A\ij{. : Alllilavit l.'>.'). rnili'il .StatuH ciiMe. Critti'ntli'n, iHaiali : Alllilavit l.'il, I'liilt'd .Stati-H cane... CrofkiT A Afvvootl: Alllilavit ■^-, I'nili'il .SIiiIi'm tast) ... Crowt'll, Klt-aztT : ADiilavit ','-',•, Itrilisli ra»t' Ciowi'll, Klislia : Alllilavit H, Initftl .*«tati's taut' Cniinin^liam, ,lolin C. : Evidi'iirt' on lii'luill' of (iicat Kiitain Cniiiiiii^liain, 'Sylvt'Htt'i' (CnnniiiKliam A riiom|i.^on) : AOUIavit TiH, L'uited .Statf Ctiriio, D. : Ki'|ioit on tlio iMland-cauj^lit lisli of I'rince IMvvanl Islainl, H.'iO- 1"7:? Cariii', .lanu's : Kviilcni-i) on liflialf of t lit' Unltt'd Stato.s Cairit', K'olii'rt : Alliilavit '^77, Hritisli caMi' CnrriiT, Cliaili's () ; Allidiivit ^'i, rnili'd .statt?.s cmu Cur/.oii, .lolin : Alliilavit '2V.K I'liitt'il .Stati'M fant^ CiiHliinp, Kmor.v (('IniNt' A (Jiisliin;;) : Alliilavit I'.'i. riiitfd .'^tatt'H cine .... (.-"ntlur, K. M. : Aftidavit of, pii'.ieutL'd to asseiiiWly of Nova JStotia MarcL 'i',i, 18:h . Ciitts, R. D. : Heport to Mr. .Sinvurd ou tlie lisheriHs, .Iiinnary 7, IrtG'J (ox- triutsfroni) 218 F I Hi-.*, I4i;:t II 1.-. l4,-.:t l'.J4 :i:i4l \J'.tH7 Ihi7-'.t:t7 ITi lltil :w:io :!I.MJ 14>JI :'.ii:u> lO'i.VlOlKI 31« •j:i:i-2P.r 141'i Itl.'iO 3-.iUl UlD:i 14IU ■2VJ 81 > I '1 •i 3474 AUMlAilRTlf-AL INDKX. |iitlli')ii«l«\ r.iirl iif Kitnii't friHii lilaili«|»ii(> It l-il.<>rMi In iM'titll of tlu' ('iiiImiI Mt>itM« ri**|)i«< tIttK Him riKlil iif III! il I'i'i'l.v, himI iIi«* -l»4t-|.'< ArKuttM'iilM iiuitliiat MMiinl* for rluhl o( iMir«hi»aliiK Iwll mill iiiiniwliiiiiiii'iir, K>>|iiiMiilMtr .> itiul >>, l'77 l.'t'O, |.>i> (i)inliiK itrKiiiiiKiit >>ii Itolnill' of tin* I'iiIIkiI HIiiIi'n, No- vi'iiiImt 'Mmil lit. 1-77 HVVi-K"". niitiiiU, TiiiioMiy A.: KvuIkik n ix-liuir nt ilin riiiMl Mtiitim ,. Ui:i|-tfl:w MiivliliDti, .liiiiii>ii II. : Al1l>ti, KitliimMiin : Alllijitvli 1 1, III llitli < iiw< 111*7 hitvi'i, W'lllliiiii; Kvhli'iK'i' on Itt'liiiir . llrlliHlii'a«< IIV'i lVii({|.<, KoImtI : Alllilitvll V7',>, llritlHli < iima Mil |tf CiiMxy on tlix 1 1 III I In ol tnill itltiix Imixiln tloii .... IMI |>i'iriiHi«>, Mr., I'liiHH'ii to |iri>Hi4l«t ovi-r llo' liiliorn of IIim CoiiiiiiImmIoii !'/ l>i Itfiiiilt i,: AMIiliis . -r.'*), riilli')'.>, (:iiii< Kiittim <'i4m IH'.'I Di'iilon, ('liiitli'N \V. : ,\illilnvit 'I'M. HiltUli i-iiNtt,.... I W I I Ion, .fo«'|.li K. : *»ll'li'vl» •.".•:!, 1. Ml. at. !•<■< H'.'l l>i>rl>.v, r.. II. ; |{t<|N)rl to Mr, Hitwitril on tlio lUlurlitM, .lanuiiry, \'t'>7 (iix- tmi'lK I loin) l>-!> I>«vol, Dikiilitl : Allliliivil ■.'ir>, l(iili..li niHM i:i|« l>lcki-v. WiilJitniA.: IIvIiIimk Itrliiilf ol llit* I'nitcil Htttti'N Ilill.Vtl- IMuK'lo". I'liillp: Allliliivil !.'>.'>, Itiitlnli I'lKo IVTi; Dillon, .loliii; Kviili'iicr on Iti'liulf of (ii. it llritain. i»;i7,lM-.' l>oiiiH>, Viili'iilini' : Allliliivil Kn;. |'nlti-i| SIiiIch i>uho..., :il7''i Doiiiit', v., Jr.,i\ Co: Alliiliivit lOr', rnititl Stuti-N iunm :it77 |)oli.ion, .loMciili : .Vtlliluvli I 111, Hiiii.th fiixr VIW l>oi nint-nt* hIimI in NU|>|torl of llrilJHli ruin, h-it ol 1 17, li"'.' Doutri', ,l iMiiin.Cliarlfi W.: AHIilavIt :»ii, Itritixli iiiv« lllln iMiliixiiii llhliaiiil llili-oii in llo* riiit)-ii StaicH; Ailvatitat(i'N to tint Doinin- ion liy riMiNoii ot tlit'ir n^- niiHNion '.), 1'.'.' ()|iiiiionM of iiroininfiit Can- ailliin Ntati'MiiD'ti as to tint valiiiMif Hiich ritiniMhioii.. . i:!l-i:i.'. Dyer, Clinrlt'H A.: Alllilavit 1 1">, rnitfil Mlat«'HriiH' :t|f,'i Dynr, K. M. (Union \VI arf Comiiaiiy i ; Alliilnvit " I, I'niti-tl MtuteH cii-^c .... :il.'.l HakiuN. liolicrt S,,Jr, : Alliilavit llol, KrltiHli cnxr M:il Katon, WiiliHiM : Atliilavii :i, rniti-il .StaN-N caHo 'Jilr>| KiHciihaii*>r, .lanuH: I'.viili-nic on iitlialf of (ircat llritain l^27-^:<■' Klilridp*. liOvi: Alliilavit |ii:t. rnitttl StatcHcAMo IIITJ KIwell, William : Aflltlavit '.'I in A, I 'iiitcd .'States caHc 'X\'it, Einbree, riiandU'r: Alliilavit 17'i, riiitfd SiiiIom caw :t'JI'i Enibree, William : Alliilavit liu, Initfil .*^tiittH cam' Il'JIii Encroaclinienfa (allcjji'd) of rnitcil .Stati'H llMlicrnicn in llritiHli North American wateru wiiicc tlio coiicIuhIoii of tho convention of l"^lr<, Docu- nientH and correHjiondimcc tiled in lieliall of (iivat Hritain : 1, Earl DalhoiiMiu lo Karl llatlinrHt, (Quebec, .liine ;•, Irt'J* (extract) 14.'>7 '2. Captain Canning;, of Iter MhjcsIv'h Hliip AlliKiUor, tu Uear-Admirul Ogle. Halifax, November',*, li-'il 1457 1 '<«(• , l-i7. lit it( (tin litaii»l ...... »M»- ■ i:. . I6*»- I.V'i IK iMlt laTO, !>• i<», N«>- nvvi ■IT"-. Mlill .'ill; nil iio: •.•71" • •••••• llv> nil |M. Vl lli;*; :iUi'. :wt| :»l.'t 1 »'.' I HVI •«i7 (ux- >-.> i;!!- :ini,vii- i'/7i; in?:. :u:7 i-.'ii H7.>/;.: Int( biiit l.'ir«T •mlior 1<1 M i7:i'. in; :i^'..'. 1 :»:..• VXM n:i.i lioiiiiii* tlu'ir n'- loiit Citii- HH to tlio liNhillll. . . It, I-'.' i:ii-i:i:. lU--'. :ti.M M:ll '2ltf \ y27-Kt- •MVi :i:i'ji; :»-.'i.-. :w»'> sh North r*. Koi'U- lOt) 14.-.7 r-A.liiiiial 1457 AI.PHAIiKTirAI. INMKX. 847A Kn< rom liiMnIa tiitl>>Ki>il i of rnlln.l Hiuti'* il«li«>ritiiii iii tliiti*li Nitrrli AMi<*rii'iiii 1% .ii( llli iif NttMi Hiolhi, Ki'linmry 71, l-.Ul H:,h I Aililri<«<« tit I hi* ii rriHit (Im fiMinvll himI itMciiihly of Nov* Hi'iMtit, Mimli W, I-.I-' M'tii '>. I'nir litiKD iif tliK MiMiiiiiilily of Nov* Hcodn ; nlttiiiiN It ol' K. M. ('iilli>r, Miinli'XI. I-;H Uiti * I III? (I). AIDilioil III lliuinin lln.v iiiiil I 'liiii !•'« ( 'lMl^hlltll I Itl'i {'i). HiM^oiiil iiilliliivii III III.' ■uiiiK I |(l:l 7. Kxlrmt Iniiii tlii< Knyiil lin/illi', riiiirliil(iii\t*iiiiir llitrM'N III l.iiiit lilfiti'lK, I'li'ili'iii'liiii, Mitri'h I'.i, M:!'.), I nil III I II I II t( .1 ti'|i III Ni'vv llriiMiiw li'k, Miiri'li I-. i-;i'.i '. iii'.i '.I. I'i'lltliiii III tliii (^iii't'ii, ri'iiiii ilii' I'oiiiii il iiml uxwitilth III' I'lliii'ii Kil- wan! Uhuiil, Miirili 71, I"!:! ' lllW'i III. ('iitiiiiniiiili'i riM'liiittii', of till' Sii|i|i|io, to Viitii-Ailiiilritl Htiyiiioiir, Hull- lux, Ihili.lMT ;i, I -.'.I (.'Xlnii't) mi«I n Sir A, llaiiiii'rinitii In Km I lirity, I'riiH'K I'.ilwnnl l«liiiiil, NuM'iiilii'r l.'i, I -.'.I (I'viirtii ) .... I Hl-« I'.'. Aililli'HH In till' UlH'i'll, I'i'iiin lltii riMllirll Itllil llDM'lllllly III' I'i'llirii l^l< wiiril Miiiiil, I'i'liriiiiry '.>. KVJ I |il;i III. Hii A. Ilitiiiii'riiiiiii til hlitil liri'y, Fi'liiiiary I'i, |'>,Vi I I7i* II. WilliiiMi It. MiKiiy In tint lloii, .1. \\ itrliiirlnn, rriiifi'litwii, .Inly 'i, \f:>i 1171 In, CiMirt III' \ iri'iiiliiiiialtv ill lliilit'iix: ri'liirii n! .Viih'IIcmm vi'hhcU M>i/t!t l<>. I''.'i7 Il7:i 17. Ciiiirt III' vii'M ailiiiliully, ('liiulnlti'lnwii ; ri'tiirn nf Aiin'iiritii vi'khi'U litiHii'i liti'il tor Mnliillnll lit niilM'lltlnll nf l', iH.v.' Il7:i !■'. N'lri'Ailiiiiial Mi'Miiniir to iIik M'rri'titry of (hn uiliiilrallv, lliilil°ii\, (litnlii'i Ml, l-.V.' 1171 I'.). Ailltri'NN nf I'ili/i'imnf llnliavt'lltlll'l', (iUNpi-, to ('nllllllllhlll'r ('ltlll|llM'll, O. tnl.iT I-, l-,'.7 I 171 7<', N'Irt'-Ailiiiliiil .Si'Miiniir In lhi> Ni'iii'liiry nf tliti niliiiiriilty, lli'iniiiilii, Niivi'iiilM-r I", I *.■>'.'. w iili I wit iiirliiiiiii'H I47."i (1). K'i'|>nrt nf ('iiiiiiiiaiiili'r t'liiiijiliDil, of lli>r Ma,|i'Htv'>t Hliip Pt-MiHtii- tinii, llalifux, NnVi'lllliiT I'", l-,V.» ' 147«; Ci). AlisiriK't of tlii> Hiati' nf |iH|M'rM nf lliitiHh vi'nhi'Im at I'nrt lliiml.. Il«| '.'I. Vii'i'-iiiliiiiralty miirt nf .Vi'vv liniiiNwirk ; ilMt of vi'H'.i'Ii proHi'i iitcil fill- iiifraolin'n of I'niivi'lilinll nf 1-I-, Si. .Iiilili, (litnliiT II, M.VJ . . .". 1 HI '■i'i. ,\i|ilri'NH In till' (^iii'i'ii Irniii llir rniiiii'il iiiiil asHi'iiililv nf Now llniiiNwIck, .Novciiil.ir I, l-.'.V ■. 14HI •j:i. Ailiili'^iH to till' (^lli'i'li finiii thi' llHMi'iiilijy nf .N'nvil ."^tntia, I'lliiliaiy 17, lH.-.;i 1|«3 71. Aililri'Nt to iln< (/iii'i'ii Irniii the ri'iiri'Ht'iitiitivi'H nf N'nvu .Smtiu, Maii'li :i(i. H.-.:! 14P3 7.''. Aililri'SH to till' t/iii't'ii fioiii till' «.niiiiril nf Nn\ a St-nli,!, A|iril I, li^.'i;!.. 1 H4 7l'>. Aililri'NN tn till' (/lli'i'll frnlii I'iti/l'IlN of ,St, •Inhll, Ni'W llnillNWirk, ,lamiary, H.Vt UHS 77. Mciiiniiiil to tilt' ijiiiii'ii fiiiiii citi/i'MM ofNortliiiiiilM'rluiHl 'Jonnly, N«\v Mrmiswiik, .Ian nary ■"•, I".'"!! 1 IH". 7^. II. II. .Norton, I iiiti<7 1 H7 71'. .St. .InlniH' Chainlii'r of ('oniimrri' to linn. .Iauit'!» C'rnwily on tlu' hiiIi- Ji't't of rociproi'lty, .Immi' 7.'i. \'''i'\ \4>*S 'MK Ailili'i'MH to tlio (/ni'cn finin tin' coniinniH of Nowfonnilliinil, .\|irll 711, i-r.:i lies •U. Mi-iiiorandnni. \ ici'-ailiiiiralty court, I'rinci' Hihvaid 1.41111111, rulativo tu Hci/nri' of fi rtain I'liiti'il Stati's ti-^hiii;; vcnsbIn 1489 :I7. Kxtract from hjm'i'cIi of Hon. .losriili Il.»\vi«, from tlio S|n'ctat<)r. .Inly Ui, 1^(1.'. M'.tO 'X\, Vice-Ailinlral Willfhli'y tn the Ht'cri'tarv of the admiralty, Ikriiindii, Novt'inbt-r M, l-Ott .' 14117 Ml t i I' .4. 4| 347n ALFIIAIIETICAL INDKX. KiicronrliiHoito (iillcjicd) of riiitcd StntcM llslicriiicn in Hiitinh Noitli Aiiioiiran wiihnH siino tho < (iiii.luNion of tin- convi'iilioii of 1H1"<. Doou- iiiuntH itnil r<)i'i'i'N|)(iiiil(Mit't> tilfil ill hcliiilf of (ft't'ut Itritaiii — Coiitiiiucil. :il. Hitjiort from Coiniiiauitoit'orhraiu) to\'ict<-A(liiiiral Fiiimhiiwo, Jiiiio 1^, 1H7(> (extinct) ir.M ',i'>. JihIko .IjicUhoii, UiiitiMl StateH Coiixiil nt Halifax, to Vicu-Adiniral \V«llf.sli'y, Aiiu'ii'^t 'M, 1"<7 II'.M ;I8. Vice- Admiral Wt'llnsluy to I'liited States Consul .Jackson, Halifax, Sep- teinl)ci';!, lr^70. DiiticHciijoinixl on tliueoinuianduiHof Hur Majuslv's Nliips 141):. '.V.>. Kt>port from Cajitain Hardiii;{e, of the Valorous, to Vice-Adniiial Wellesley, Halifax, ScptcmUer 17, l-^7() IJOli 40. Captain IMiillainoru tu \'icc-Adiniral I'anshawe, Halifax, Novembci' l.''i, 1H7(» (cxtiact) 1 t'.>T 41. Cointnunder Knowlos, of tho Lap\viuj{, to Vice-Admirul I'diishawe, November 7, 1-70 I4'.t; 42. llovised Nchedulo of vessels seized diiriii); 11^70 for violations of lisliery and rcveniK! laws. Ottawa, Decemlier 14, 1^70 l.'Di) 43. List of fisliiny vessels hoarded bv Her Majesty's Nliii> I'lover btitweeii .Inly yf) and Aii^nst ^ I, 1--70. . .'. ' ' l.'.dl 44. List of foreiyn vessels boarded witliin tliree miles of land on the coast of I'rince IMward Island dnrin;; the tlshiiiK season of 1^7^ ir)()t 4.'). List of United States lisliin;; vessels in the watiM-s of I'rince Kdward Island distinj;nished,bnt not boarded, by Her Majesty's Bhii>» in 1b7vJ. l.'fH Kiigland, TIkhiuis: Albdavit IIU. United States'caso " Ifvitll England. William; AITldavit I'.tO, L'nited States case ;!-,Mil KvanB, .Folin : Aftlilavit ri.">, IJritish case IKi'.t Everett, Kdward : Correspondence with Lord Aberdeen in l'5j;i-'44 on the inshore tislieries 145-14!) Evidence. (See witni'sses, al'lidavits, Ac.) Evitt, John S, : Kvnlence on behalf of the United States l>i24l-2-J.'yi F. Fait, Walter M. : Atlidavit ','('., United States case ;i()7:i I'.videiuo on behalf of the United States US7I-2S79 (Leighton & Co.): Attidavit 71, United States case 3137 Farmer, Samuel M. : AtBdavit '271, United States case 3331) Fauvel. John II: Aflidavit 171, British cose li,".)4 Ferguson, John : Allidavit 110, Hritisli case 1"J3-^ Ferguson, Pe^er : Afllidavit 183, British case 1308 Fernald. I). L. (J. W. Sawyer A: Co.) : Aflidavit 118, United States case.... 318'J Ferris, Simon : Aflidavit 14<), British case 1270 Fiander, Samuel: AttUlavit 104, British case 128ti Fiander, Stepheu : Aflidavit 4. in rebuttal, British case 3441) Fish, Mr. : Correspondence with Sir E. Tlioruton in 1870 relative to Cana- dian fishing licenses 1,")1, l."i Fisher, Wilford J.: Evidence on behalf of the United States 2oOG-2527 Fisheries, inshore: Of Canaila; (iuestii»n of the extent of. The Everett- Aberdeen correspondence, 1843-'44 131) Fishery Commission, the : Organization of 12 Knles of i)rocedure adopted 13 Modification of procedure 3."), 30 Fitch, James: Aflidavit 138, United States case 3211 Fitzgerald, William : Aflidavit 212, United States case 32.'5t) Flynn, Edmund: Aflidavit 201, British case 1329 Flynn, James: Aflidavit 200, British case 1328 Flynn, ^Vm. : Evidence on behalf of Great Britain T87-7'Jl Foley, Michael : Afli»iavit 24, British case 1123 Ford, Mr. Francis Clare : Admitted as British agent before the Commission . 12 Fortiu, Pierre: Extract i"rom report of, for 180.') 218 Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 882-9ill Fortune, Lawrence: Aflidavit 1)3, British case 1210 Foster, Mr. Dwight : Agent of the United States. Letter to Mr. Evarts reporting award G ALPHAHETICAL INDEX. 3477 I'a^.. nU Noitli i. Docu- iniictl. 11: 11 j-AJiiiiriil ll'.M Halifax. ll'.tl ifdx, Sep- ir.M ifax, Sep- MiiJost,v"H li'.t:. •-Atlniiral ll'.tii "iinnliiiwt', 1 VM 1411- ir.od ,T bctwoi-n ir.oi ) . !,■)() 1 0 Kdwaitl pH ill IsT'J. l.->08 1 !('.'.» -'44 on tlie 145-141) 2-24l-'Jjr>i 3aso. ;es case 0 to Cana- bo Everett- 'oiumissiou. 2671-2370 3137 3;v.v.t 1204 123S 13IW :U3'J 1271) 128ti 3441! ini.l.") 250G-2527 r.u) 12 13 3r>, 3t) 3211 32.-1) 1320 1328 737-7ltl 1123 12 218 862-901 1210 Mr. Evai'ts tj I'ag.'. Fimtfi, Ml'. I>\vi;{lit : Adiiiiltcd an aj^eiit of the I'nitcd Stati-s bitV.re tht; C'oiii- iiiiHMioii 12 HIh aimwiT ill beiwilf of t)io rtiitcd Stutea ir.)-i:f7 IvfiiiaikH on tlic li^lit of tliml roply, Aiij;u8t 'ii*, lt^7.. 1522, 1532 Miitiou to oxi'liubt piircbaxu of bait and traiiNshipnient of c'lirgot'H aH liaNCMof awardH, and i lie debate theroon, S.pttiuibcr r. and •'., 1-77 l.'.3D-15d8 ClciHJi!^ arnnint'iit on behalf of the United .States, No- venilier .S and C, l'*77 l,'>-''-lt;21) router, JainenI'. : Anidavit21)7, Hritisli easo 1427 Koiunler, Charbs : Allitlavit 1".K), HritiHli caso 131(5 Fonrnier, Messie : Albdavit 242, HritiNli ease 1377 Fox, J (dill ,1. : i'.videnction lielialf of (ii'i>at Hritaiii I(!2-4'^H Fox, ThoniiiH Edward : Alllda\ it 14'.), I'liited States ca.se 3223 I'raser, .laiiien: Allidavit Ilr<, Ibitinh ciimo 1237 Fraher, .JaiiieH (>. : Allidavit 274, and Htatenieiit of coot of niaiiitaining New- fouiuUand li|;ht-liouseH, liritish caNu 1410 Evidonco on behalf of (ireiit Mritaiii r>7.">-5y(i Freeinaii, FraiicLs M. : Evidence on behalf of the Fnited States 204'J-20«'>t> Atbdavit >*t), United States case 3154 Freeman, .FcKse H., (aKent .Mercantile Wliart Company of Welllleet): AtH- davit !•<■), Unite5, Hritish case 1308 Gillies, Angus: Aflidavit 273, Hritish case 1400 Gillis, .lames. Aflidavit l(!(i, IJiited Slates case 32:10 (iiluian, Aljihonso: Affidavit :{5, Hritish ca.se 11:50 (iiovaiininiii, Henry : Aflidavit 50, Hritish case 1175 Girrois, James L : Aflidavit 170, United .States case ;{252 Glazebrook, Joliii : Allidavit 20(1, United States case :J278 (Jleiin, John: Aflidavit 2f>5, United States case ;:3{2 Gloucester, Mass. : Cod and mackirel tleet of 80 Slatistii'sof ])i)piilati(>n and valuation of 2502-2504 Stateinenls taken from the books of tishing tirnis :>:io4-:i:i75 Gloucester Mutual Fishing Insurance Company: Policy of :t440 H v-la vvs of, for l-7(>-1877 . . 3452 (Jolt, Addison, jr. (Smith &. Golt) : Aflidavit 73, United States case 3130 Goode, George Hrown: Statistics of the lisheries of the North Atlantic States 3300-3304 Goodwin, Daniel : Aflidavit 113, British case 1232 3478 ALPHAHKTICAL INDEX. Good will, A. K.: Amdiivlt -jrA, VnUal Statt-H cnM' :»:iH Ooojjirm, KDr»-yil 1 Graham, Joiin : Atlidavit ^i, KritiHli caNi; li:;i Grant, An^ns: Kvidi'i:(!i> in itfiiaiC of (Jreat Itritain 597 -til | (irant, .John : Aflldavit Hti, United States cane :t','.'it; Gray, Klvarado: Kvidfiice on bclialt'of the United States '2 11 --'J «::•,' (ireat Kritain : Case of 77-117 Greenleaf, William: Atlidavit vJ'^."), I'liited States case :WJ." (irenier, (ire;;oire: Evidence on behalf of Great ISritaiii 111-417 Grirtin, Levi: Atlidavit ','()ll, United States case IWrCi Groser, .Jaeol): Allidavit ''ii, Hritish case U'.'-^ Gross, H. O. (Union Wharf Company) : Atlidavit <\ United States case 111.".] Gronehy, David : Allidavit 1 i:i, Hritisli case 1*2117 (ironchy, riiilip: Allidavit l»li, Hritish case 1^14 Grove, Jn(lj;e : Mis opinion on tlie limits of maritime jurisdiction (inoted... l."7 (Jrnchy (Gioncliy), David: Allidavit IK', United States ease ll'J.Mi H. llackett, Kdwanl : Allidavit If', British case 1117 lladdoD, William : Allidavit 'Jill, IWitish case ^ i:i7x lladley, James IJ. : Allidavit If). Hritish case lliV." Halifax, vice admiralty court: Return of American vessels seized for viola- tion of convention of I'^IH, dated .luiy lilt, IH'i'i 1I7'2 Halifax : Correspondene*- in H70, between I'nited States ConsulJacksou and Vice-Admiral Welleslev WM-WX, Hall, Edward G. : Allidavit l-,'7 Itritish case 1','17 Hall, Isaac C. : Evidence on lielialf of the United Slates yHri4-'2s71 Hamilton, .lames U. : Allidavit "JJ, United States case 'MHm Hamilton, J(din H.: Atlidavit UJ'), Hritish case 1"244 Hammond, S. 15. : Atlidavit -Jl",', liritisli ea.se EMI Hannan, h'iehard : Allidiivit \:i, United States case IUu;t Harlionr, George : Evidence on behalf of (Jreat liritain ■.)m-404 Hardinye, Ca|ita';i Edward, Koval Navy : Evidence on behalf of Great Brit- ain .' ■ (i3.-'-ri4:? lieport to V'icc-Adniiral Wellcsley, September 17, 1870 14'Jti Hardy, Henry : Atlidavit 4(>, United States case '.Udl Harlow, Keuben: Atlidavit '.iM, Hritish case 1411) Harrinj;ton, William H. : Evidence en b";half of Great Biitain 104()-ll»4!) Statement of prices of mackerel in American mar- kets lH(i:Uolpi77 1(148 Hart, Alf-ed W. : Allidavit 17."., United States case 'A'aS Har\ey, Lienteniint-Ciovernor, Fredericton, N. H. : Dispatch to General Canipl)ell, .January 27, l":!- 14(>2 Disnatcl) to Loiu (ilenelj^, Fredericton, March 19. 1«J9 14ti4 Harvey, William : Atlidavit 141, United States case :W14 Haskell, Samuel : Allidavit .'■)4, United States case 3ll."< Hautefeuille, on the limits of maritime J nrisdict ion 1()4 Hay, Duncan : Atlidavifs of, conceriiiny encrctachnieuts of United States fish- ermen, January 24, l-'3-< 14t)2, 140:5 Hays, William: AHiidavit 207. United Slates case :52SO Hayward, James S: Atlidavits 49 and .'.O, Hritisli case IKio Hazen, Judge : Judgment in the case of the White Fawn IJ.'i^l Headlands: Hritish instrnction to draw line between, when six miles apart. 121 Headlands and bays : (Question of opinion of Chief-Justice Cockburn l.")9 Opinions of Hluntschli, Kliiber, Ortolan, Hautefeuille, &c Ki;} Henilow, Henry, sr. : Atlitlavit 2(if5, Hritish ca.se 1400 Herrick, William : Affidavit 2:!(), United States case 3:503 Herring hshing by Americans in Hritish waters amounts to nothing 126 of Newfoundland IHG Hickman, George A. : Affidavit IGG, British case 1288 Hickiuan, Samuel G. : AtHdavit 62, Hritish case 1177 Hickson, James : Evidence in behalf of Great Britain... 901-912 Hill, Edward: Evidence iu behalf of the United States 2714-2721 ALPHA HETICAL INDEX. 3479 •f' '.i:ili •U4-*-'-m:.;; '..'.'.'.'. ;»tw yoor.-yin u:u 5U7-tlll ',Ml^-'i»;:'J 77-117 '.Vi'X, '. 411-417 ll'."" io :ii'-i ; i-,'i4 )tf»i... 1''" 1117 1-H 11.".'.' r viola- 147-J son and ....... 14l)4-14!».-. .... 1--M7 yHr.4-"2s7i ;?()(■>:> 1-^44 1:M4 :.; :uo:! :",lt4-4U4 •at IJiit- . . . 03^-04:^ l4'Jr, ••uoi 141t) 104t)-l(>4'J an niar- \ :{«>48 Goneral 14(52 1, March l-HJ^ :W14 ;; lt)4 ites fiah- 14()2,14f.:{ 4U)5 ...... ■.<:s^i s apart. I'-Jl n A.)J tet'euillo, lt« 1400 1'2C 18G '. .... I'-Jf^ 1177 .... 901-912 2714-2721 Vage. Hill, llaiiiiltiiii A. : AtVidavit aH to MtatiHticH Niiliiuitttul on bulinlf of tlio Unit.'d .Staffs :U57 llillianl,.). 1), O'u'fniaii \ Hillianl*: Alliilavit H7, 1'nitod Statcn caso ;Uri5 iliiid, I'lot. Ht'nr.v Vonl<>: llviilencc in rcliuttal on hciiair of (intat Hiitain.. :t:!'.)9-:M4:< llinnH, Hyron: Atliilavit 2"J4, Unltt'il fStutt's caHr '.Vi'Xt lliitif(or Unrtlc), Kilwaitl : Atliilavit i:W, UritiMlmtw 12.')4 llod^don, All.ion 1'.: Alliilavit li^. Knitt'd Statt-s iiisi« :i'.'00 Hod^fdon, Fivfiiian : Allldavit 1, llriiti Hopkins, Ivicliiinl : Kvidenct^ in behalf of the United Stales 24)!l-2lti',) Hoitoii, Edward A. : Allldavit 2:i, I'nited S'ates rase IIOCO Howard, Oliver F. : Allldavit 2C.:i, rnlte Howe, Hon, .Ifiseidi : Kxtrmt from a speech of, July, 1M)."> 14'.>0 Howell,. Inhn: Allldavit 2;'.l, United States east :!2lt9 Howell, William : Allldavit 2:12, United States case ItltOO Howlan, Hon, (ieo. Wiu. : I'.vidence on behalf of Or.-at Ilritaiii l?74-'.f'.M Howlett, .Jauies : AOidavit ;tl, Ibilish case Ii:i2 Hubert, I'hilip : Allldavit .'>7, Uritish east^ K/l Hiilbert, K'.duit H.: Kvidenre on behalf of the United .States 24:52-2442, 247 l-24.-i2 Hiirlle, r.dwiird. (Sir Hirtle.) Hutchinson, .lohn 1". : Allblavif yiiC, United States ea?o :t'.<:i:5 Hyiuan, William : Allldavit l?l,lhitish ca.so lHOti I. Jni;ers()ll, David : I'.vidciiee on behalf of the United States 1'.>.V.>-1'.HI Iii);rahani,.bihii H, : Allldavit It.o, United States ease ;V2:M luKrahain, .lohn U, : .Mlidavit o*^, itritish eado 1145 Inkpeii, Kobert : Allldavit 2, in rebuttal, British case 15414 Inshore lishery: Jurisdictional limitation to, within the three-mile lino claimed by the United States 122 Three miles line, Kejdy of Great Hritain Itiit Insurance, lishinii: I'olicy and by-laws of the (ilomester Mutual Company. 154 ll>, !54r)2 Ireland and Ticfetheii : Attidavit M', I'nited States case ol47 J. .Jack, Thoma.s 8. ^George Trefetheii vV Co.): Aftidavit 117, United States case. :{187 Jackman, Michael : Allldavit 7.'>, Hiitish case IIDO Jackman, Kichard : Allldavit 1415, United States ease 'MHi Jackson, M. M., United .States con»>ul at Halifax : Correspondence with \'ice- Admiral Wellesley, Au;;nst and September. 1"^70 1494,1495 Jacobs, Solomon : Allldavit 259, United States ca.se :5.'524 Jameson, , John S. : Aflidavit 21!'*, United States case :5:5;55 Jessop, Jauies: Allldavit 211, Mritish case i:!42 Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 7S;i-7rf7 .1. H. Nickerson, the : Judymeut in the case of ;^;595 Johnson, James: Atlidavit lA'', United States case, 15222 Johnstone, William : Allldavit 1~9, British case 11515 .Jordan, William H. (Rowe A .Jordan) : Allldavit (')7, United States c.a.se :5l;52 .(ordau. Wiuthrop.S. (W. S. .Jordan iV Co.): Allldavit llti, United States case. :51''() Jordan A: Blake: Allldavit 11:5. United States case :51"<:5 .lost, Nathaniel : Atlidavit "';5, British case 1200 Joyce, Hanson B. : Atlidavit 24~, United States case ;5:!15 Jud}j;meut8 of British vice-admiralty courts in cases of United States lishinj;- vessels seized : 1. White Fawn : Hazcn, J :5:;Sl 2. Wampatuck : Sir William Vounji, . I :v.\-*:\ :5, A, H. Wanson : Sir William Vouufj, J ',V\-'-i 4. A..J. Uraukliu : Sir William Youni;,. J :5;i'Jl 5. J. H. Nickersou : Sir William Voun«(, J IllWS Kellogg, Mr. Commiseioner : His written dissent from the award of Messrs. Delfosse and Gait 70 Kelly, William : Allldavit 114, British case 1233 !! ■ii ■s 4 "I '1 ■1' ii iiiH III ' 3480 ALPIIAnETICAL INDKX. Kemp, linr/.ilini : Kvii>|ialf of flio iriiiti-d Htntvn •,»(i'iH-'jot7 Kemit'ily, Aiidnnv : AHIdiivit 'i'.\7, MiitiHh cuhw \M>i Kt'nm-y.Duiiiol V, : AC/ldiivit '.'ltd, MritinlicnHo ltv>„> Kciiiu'y, K»Miln"!i C. : AHldiivit 17, United HfafoH ihho MKir, Killinnnv, VVillimu : Kvidi-nco (in liclnilf of (Jniiit Kiitain. .'■>.V2-r>7."» Kiiulxirloy, Karl: Disiiateli to (Jovi>rnor Mill, of Ntnvfoiindland. London, •Inno 17, 1»-71 '.VM'.t Kiiby, William H. : Atlldavit ',**.>;t, rnitcd StutcH caHo :w,»:i Klillicr, on tbo limit h of maritimo jiirlHdiition l(i:l KnowleH, Cumnuinder, of the Lapwinj; ; Mispatoli to Vico-Admiral Fun- Hliawc, NovcmliiT 7, 1H7(» 11(W Kuowlton, Harvey: Adidavit ",»:i, Tniti'd States caso lUiCO Knowlton, Harvey, jr. : Atlldavit fi'J, I'nitcd States cnHo :U;i;! Atlldavit Vi'-'ti, United States .ase '.Vi'M', Knowlton, John C. : Kvidenoe on heiialf of tbe United States ',*7"iO-'J7lit Labrador coaHt: Anieriian nionoiioly of the lisheritm of, in 18'J7 11.'." Ladd, Hyron P.: AHidavit 'J'.tH, Hiitish ca.sn II '27 Lafrauce, Sixto : Adidavit ','1!», Itritish caso VXC, Luhey, Thonuis: Aftiilavit ll'-i, IJritish caso Vi'W Laidlaw, George: Allidavit 'i(M, United .states lase IVJCiit Lake, John, sr. : Allidavit 1()7, Hritish ease I'i-'lt Lakeman, .Iiw pli : i;videne»» on hehalf of the fnited States *,'." •,>7-'J.' :{ 1 Lamontainne, T. ,1. : Kvidenre on behalf of (ireat Mritain T'J'.i-7llT Lane, Samnel and (ieorgu K. (Samuel Lane; iV Hro. ) : Atlidavit .')•>, United States caso Ul'jn Lan^ley, Ueovne : Allidavit 170, United States case 'A'iV.'i Larkin, Alexander: Affidavit 'id, IJritish easo 11111 Lurkin, Alexander Kraneis: Allidavit .''i, IJritish case IdlK! Larkin, William S.: Allidavit 'j;J, Ibitish caso 11'.21 Laurie, Andrew : Allidavit llHl, United States case IWdil Lawrence, (Jeorge (J.: Allidavit 4.'), Ilritishcase lir)>< Leary, Patriik : Allidavit 71, British case llfli Le Wane, Frank : Allidavit I7(i, Hritish caso I'i'.KI Le lilanc, Isidore: Atlidavit 1 14, IJritish case I'Jll':^ Allidavit 1M>, United States lase ;i'J.'>:{ Le Blanc, Simon P.: Allidavit If^l, United States case :i'^ri;J Lebrnn, Abraham : Evidence on behalf of (Jreat Britain >^UI>-H1,") Le IJrun, Francis : Atlidavit IHS, British case 1314 Lee, Charles : Allidavit '2'.\>*, United States case It;U)7 Legresley, John : Allidavit 170. British case IVJSI:? Le^ros, >lohn : Alli. United States case :J(I7:J Atlidavit '^t'l , United States case :{-2!l2 (Leighton &. Co.): Allidavit 71, United States case :J1:J7 Leniontais, i'liili|>: Allidavit liill, British case l"24i) Levanger, Edward: Allidavit Kil', United States case 'M42 Levescoute, Isaac: Atlidavit 148, British case I'i72 Levesconto, William : Allidavit I »3, United States case IJ'2r)5 Lewis, Allen: Atlidavit V27, United States case UllW Lewis, Bangs A : Evidence on behalf of the United States ti0r'7-*JOlt.') Lewis, B. A. (B. A. Lewis & Co.) : Affidavit 1»"2, United States case :Jl(il Lewis, Jesse: Affidavit '270, United States case '.JIUJP Lewis, Philip: Allidavit 100, British case 1'219 Lewis, T. C. (Lewis, Whitten it Co.) : Affidavit 114, United States case ... 3184 Licenses, Canadian fishery: Correspondence between Mr. Fish and Sir E. Thornton relative to abolition of l.")4, 1.').') Light-Louses: in Canada, list of, used by United States fishermen lOtid on Newfoundland coast: cost of maintenance 1410 Liudley, Judge : His opinion on maritine limits of jurisdiction quoted I>'i7 Lloyd, John : Affidavit 102, British case I'i75 Lloyd, William : Affidavit 2UJ, British case 1344 Locke, Austen: Affidavit 340, British case 1374 Lohnes: Isaac: Affidavit 9*2, British case 1309- Londrigan, Lawrence: Evidence on behalf of the United Stales 2460 Lord, James: Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 717-73'-i ALiMiAnr/ncAL index. 3481 '.'IRiK-'JIMT j;<:ii !»•.••.' ;<((;i.- .'.VJ-')*."! udoti, :v.M'.» :w',« , w.\ Fun- , HO- :u;i:i -.WW ',»T-20-v>7 JO lir.7 H'J7 vx,:\ V2M :<•.>(•.'.» '."'.'.'. r•^,^i7-^»-;^^ 7ll-^-7'.t7 llnitfil . . . :u-jii :i'-i«-'' 111!' 10% ii-n :v2iy.\ iir)H iif'.t l'i'.K» . . ;«.'>:! :wri;5 so: 5-^1.') i:u4 :«o7 i'ii« I'".!.') .'"!.'. iJ17H-2'20» 3073 3'2<)2 ise.... : Luce, John M. : Atlidavit 17'.S MritiNli vano 13U3 ill. Macaiilt'y, Micliail : Kvideiicf on la'liall'of the Uiiittfd Stati's 23.'r--2345 MacDoiiald, Alt^xaiidor : Kvidfiict- on liclialf ofdrcat Itiitaiii 10*22 Macdonald, Sir Jolm A.: His views rfHpcctiiij; iireiprotity <|iii>t»id in tli» I'll i ted States cast" 127 Macdonald, Jolin 1>. : Kvidcnco on lii'liaifof (ireat Britain '.H*;.',);).') Macdonald, John If.: Kvldenco on hfhall'oi' (ircat IJritain It'tt-O"*'. Macdonald, Lan^iilin: Kvi(htiic« on liehalf of (in-at liritain 101i> Mrtcdonnt'il, Wni.: Kvidcnco on htdialfof (Jrcat Britain H43-855 Mackenzie, (tt'orj;o : Kvideficeon heiuilf of <;ieat liritain 4?s-50'2 Muckcri'l : A small amount caught within tiiu thieu-milo /one 'J Character of hai t for l'2y Kritisli claim that the greater part of the catch is witiiin tiie three- mile limit 174 American latch ; report otl'ierre Fortin 21'^ I'nited States catch at I'ort Mulurave, Nova Scotia, durin>{ 1873, 1-74 -2-2-2-'229 Statement ot prices of, in American markets, l!-'tl3-l-77 1048 Mr, Nobh-'s statemenis of prices, l-i;i-l-77 10.'.G-lOt;2 Imports into the I'nited States from British North America 33.'):l Imi>orts into tlie port of Boston trom Britisli Nortli America 3354 Inspected at Portsmouth and New Castle, N. II 3375 and herring: Annual importation into \\ui I'nited States 335-2,3353 lisliery: Britisli statement of its value and extent W Professor Baird's views respecting, Malouiu, Alexis : Allidavit '205, British case 13;!5 Manslield, Alfred : Atlidavit 32. United States case 3o<»3 Manter, Priuce (Manter A Bhickmer) : Atlidavit 99, United States ease '.iltJd Maritime jurisdiction in bays and between heatllunds : OpinioiiH of inter- national writers on 103-10*! Marmeau, Francis: Atlidavit 142, Britisli ca>>i' 1'20<; Atlidavit l/S, United States case 3'25l Marshall, E. : Atlidavit 30, Britisli case 1140 Martens on the limits of maritime Jurisdiction 105 Martin, Charles: Atlidavit -2.57, United States case 33-22 Martin. Stephen J. : Evidence on belialf of the I'nited States •23lO-'2:!-27,234l Mass, William J. : Evidence on behalf of the I'nited States -2S10--2821 Massachusetts: Extract from Sixth Annual Keport of commissioners of in- land tisheries of 23-:^ Analysis of reports of inspectors of mackerel, showing the number of barrels inspected 3377 Statements showing the nuiulier of barrels of mai'kerel sub- mitted annually for inspection and reinspection from l-^.'jO to 1870 3378 Statistical information ; returns by the deputy inspector of tiahforl.S5l 3379 Statement of the vessels owned in, employed in the mack- erel fishery in 1853 33P0 Matheson, Angus: Atlidavit 121, British case 1240 Matthews, Allan : Affidavit 240, British case 1380 /; 8482 ALPItAnETICAL FN'DEX. > MiittlifWM, ritikir: Artltluvit '■i'". fiiitiHli caw 1 U'.' M< Ailjkiim, iMiiii-l : Atlldiivit 'J 11, ItritiiHli tiiNt- litTri Ml AiliiiiiN,.lol!ii : Aimdiivit •J.V.t, llriliili iiimi> lll'.C MiAIpiiH', Willmiii II.; Allliluvil LM), I'niti.a stutt-N cumh :iti:< McAiilty, l.iiko: Alli(lu\ it, -JlKt, riiilfil St«tt>i« cuno :f.".1» McCaiili'v, liiik*•.', Initfil States taM.- ICljn MiDonalil, Allan: Atllilavit !('>•.', I'liitt-il .StatcH cum! :\->:\i'> M< Doiialil, AiiKim: Alliilav t llilil, DritiHb caMt) 1 CtH MiDonalil, Danii'l : Alliilavil '.'<••.', lliiitfil .states case :!','ri MiDoiiaUl, Duiiald : Allliiavit Kill, I iiited States case If.'iiT MiDuiia d, .laiiiL's: Allldavit i:t, r>i it isli ea.se Illii Allldlivit III, Jllitisli rase 1 1 J'.t Alliilavil :itt4, Itrilisli eaNe li:!t; McDonald, John : Kvidence on lielialt' of (ireat liiitaiii '.)li7-'.CI Alliilavit ','1, I'nited States ua.se :!(»(;.'. Ml Dointlil, .lohii I,'. : Alliilavil :!;t, Uiitisli ease li:i.'. MiDonalil, Lewis: Alliilavit i:i(i, I'liiteil States case :!-,MI'.l McDonald, Matthew : Alliilavit 'il.'), I'nited States case :tvJ~H Ml Donald, Michaul : Allidavil l.M'i, Itiitish case I'.'77 Alliilavil :t(i!t, llritish ease 1 IJ-i McDonald, I'etor: Alliilavit :t(l7, Hritish case ... 1 1 ID McDonald, Ji'oheii .1. : Allidavil l.'i;i, Itiitish case lv.'7."> McDonald, K'oderick : Alliilavit '.iOl, rnilcil Stales case li'JTO McDonald, iionald : Kvidcnco on hehalf of (jirent Hiitain KKW-KM I McDoiuild, William II.: Kvideiice on hehalfof tho riiited States 'JIOI-VIll McDouKall, Donald: Alliilavit i:!l», Uiitish case l-.'C.J McDonj;all, l{ol)fit : Kvidencc on hnliall' of (i teat Hiitain r'7(f-"'"'"J McDonjrall, Simon: (MeJ)onj;all iV li'ace): Attidavil l.Vi, I'nited States case :W04 McKachan, Charles: Alliilavil :i|:t, Hritish case lltl> Mcllachrcn, Donald: Allidavil U'J, I'nited States caso :{'.il.'> McKachren, Dnncan : Alliilavit ]'.•".•, United States ca.so '.V2(>'i MeTadyen, Malcolm : Allidavil 'J'.», Biitish case ll'Jrt McUiath, Kichard : Allidavil 7'2, Hritislica.se 11H7 Mclnnis, .lames: Hvidence on behalf of (ireal Hritain lO-Jl-IOiJi McInuis,.John : Kvidencc in hehalt of tho I'nited States y'.'f)"J->.>->7."> Mclmiis. Michael : Atlidavit Kil, Hritish case l!»r*:i Mclntvre, Daniel: Allidavil :il."), Hritish caso 1451 Mclntyre, John: Allidavil :)iW, Hritish case 144-J Mclsaac, Hariiaby : Kvidenco on behalf of (ireat Hritain . (•."O-'.t.'VT Mclsaac, Clement : Kvidenco on behalf of Great Hritain 1017, IdH Mclsaac, James : Allidavil "iti?, I'nited States caso li:!!!.} McKay, Alexander: Allidavil init, Hritish caso 1-J*.i7 McKay, James: Kvidenco in behalf of (Jroat Hritain 014-()'^"< McKay, John : AHidavit '^ilM, Hritish caso 14'J."i McKay, Win. H., harbor-master of Princotown: Dispatch to Colonial Secre- tary Warbnrton, July ',', le.VJ 1471 McKeen, James 0. : Allidiivit 17(1, I'nited St!ites caso ;V.i4'J McKenzie, Alexander: Alliilavit vM'.t, Hritish caso i:W:{ McKenzie, Colin : AHidavit ;i4, Hrilish caso li:!7 McKenzie, (Joorge : Allidavil 4;J, Hritish caso 1I.'4 McKiuuon, Dongald: Atlidavil'^O;?. I'nited Stales caso ',\'i72 McKiunon, John II.: Altidavir^lH, I'liited States caso 'S'i'M !McLaii<^hlin, Walter H. : Evidence on behalf of Ureal Hritain 7o2-7r>() McLean, Daniel C. : Allidavil ;U4, Hrilish caso 14.")0 McLean, James : Evidence on behalf of (iroat Hritain 61)8-717 McLean. Jo.seph : Attidavil 2.-)i), I'nited SMilos caso IWIH McLellan, John : Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 1022 -li''i;{ McLeod, Colin: Altidavit y(i2, Hrilish case 13'J7 McLeod, George : AHidavit l.'il, Hritish caso 1274 McLeod, James: AHidavit 110, Hritish case 122'J McLeod, John A.: Attidavil :w:i, Hritish caso 14:1:1 McLeod, W'illiam : Evideuceou behalf of Great Britain 417-44(1 Aftidavit 245, HrilLsh case i:?7!) McNair, James : Aftidavit L^f, United States case 3233 ALPHAriKTICAI, INKKX. 3483 rnuc i;u»:. :«-."^' :w'.»it 1:1:!- i:m, :w:t(; :c,'7i !.'... mil 1H'.» .. .. '.tc.r-'.ci rj77 l-iT.'. , .. :''-70 ... i()0"'-ion •,MO>--.MU 1-,>C.I t^Ttl-.-^-^'i 8 caso ',i'iO\ 1 1'Jf^ 11H7 1(K>1-102'2 yj(;y-'2-27r> !!.'!.. 1451 .... 144i '.)r.o-i>r.7 1017, lOlH . .. ;5:5:5'-5 Vi'S! t)l4-(W-l i4-,>r. Bfcrt'- 1471 '.".".'... n'57 ii:)4 ;w7-i 7;5-2-7r)(5 14.'.it oys-717 •XUrt , 1022 -II ••,>:{ 13'J7 l--i74 12'jy '"".'.. I4:w 417-44(5 i;?7l) 3'i33 MiN<'il, Dimii'l : A Hi luvji •>'>'<, I'liitfil Sttti-nciixi' 'XM',\ McNi'ill, Ali'xiiiMl.T M.: Atll.luvir I. Ilnti'^li ium< lo'.M M(NVill,.l'.» Mi'iiliiuli'ii lislii'iy ill I'lilttMl NtiitDs watiTH: Vuliitt In C'aiiailiaiis uh miiiii'ci) of niackt'i'i'l liiiit I'ill XKiiaiitilo Wharf {'miipany i»l' Willlli'il. Mush. : AHIilavit '.•('., I'liiti'il Mtatfs cax' IUCm Mi'ici'f, Isaac : Alliilavit Iti:!, Itiiiisli cusc l*.'"'(i Mi'i(liaiil,.liiliii : Allliliivit 'J'Ti, Miitish ciim' 1 tl-^ MiTiitt, (iillti'it : Alliilavit '.".M, Itiitisli nxsc 1 l'.»:t MilliT, l{i(liiiiil: Alliilavit l^ii, IJiiti'.li casn V.U'i MilJH, ri'ttT II. : Kviili'iii't, oil lii'lialfiir till' riiitDil Mtati>s *,MOl-'i|M| Miliirr, 'riiiuiutN : Alliilavit II Hi, llritiNli casi' I I.V^ Mi.lliiy, Williiitn (A.]: Alliilavit VIH. I'liitnl Stall s ram- '.^'■i-"i MiiiitHoini'rv, II II nil .loliii : Alliilavil •,', Mrilisli lasr 10. ly Miioir, Williimi II.: Alliilavit liil, I'liiti'il Slati'is i'iimi- ;t'.i:!r> Miiny, Sti'|i|ii 11 It.: Alliilavit i;!, Iiiili'il Sditi-s I'asr :U04 Morgan, Muhi-n ('. ; Alliilavit '..'ill, I'liiiril StatnH rasi« :W7M Miiiii'ii, .liilin : Alliilavit i:U, lliiliHli case llioll Mditisav, .laiiii'H .1. : Alliilavit 17, llnlish rasi- III."> Moiiy, ii'iiliiit: Alliilavit 77. Mriti'^li iiisr ll'.)! Morsi', ICilwaril : Alliilavit lo^*. Ilritisli fasc I'J'Jt; Mii.sli>y, (ii'iii'jro !•;. : Alliilavit '^'"7, lliiliHli imhi- M','0 Ml III I a II I, .loHliiia : .Alliilavit 17.'>, ItriliMli nist) V-i'.H Miilliii.s, ratiiiik: Alliilavit ',':!!, Hiitisli laso lliti? Miilliiy. William II.: Alliilavit '.:(, Itiitish casi- 1U;7 Mini 11, K'obi'it Hti'wart : Alliilavit H, Hritisli laso IKW StatiMiieiits attailiiil to alliilavit II'M. \U'>:> Mum 1)1', Maltlii'w : Alliilavit y.')7, Hiitisli iasi< 1 :!!•:[ Mil 11 roe, William : Alliilavit 'i'lti, Mritisli caHi; llC.l'i Miirpliy, Mryaii, Alliilavit 1 1.">, MiiliNli rasi' lv!ii'.» Miirpliy, l)i'iiiiiH C. : Atl'ilavit 'J'J7, rnitfil Stati'scasn H'i'.i7 Miiipliy, (u'orpi: Ariiilavit l."i7. Mritisli last' l'.i7-< Murphy, .loliii : Alliilavit Tilt, Hritisli iiim' WA'.) Mil nay, I>aviil, jr.; .Mliilavit "J 17, Itiitisli lasr i:>-it Murray. .loliii: Alliilavit l.V.t, liiiti-il .statis ias<> :v.':U Myiii k. .lames II. : Eviiltiiri' 011 liihalfof tlit) Uiiiltil Status '.^7 li>-'.i7li."i Nass, Charles K. : Eviilcnn' on lii'Valfof (ireat Ilrila'ii lOiil-lOir) Ni-arin^, William : Alliilavit 111. Hritisli lasf 1'2:U Xelsun, I'hri'sti'ii : Kviili'iiri' on Iwlialt' of tli« I 'iiitiil .Stati-s •.i7lJ.">-2777 Nelson, William H. : Alliilavit 1.'), I'liiti'd .Stall's la^f ;!0'.is (.Nelson iV llarjinv): .\rii(lavii '.1-. I'liiti'il .Slates case ., !Ut)7 Newcoml), Daniel C: Kviili'iiie on l>i-lialf of the I'nitcil .states -Jll l-,'l','l Nowhook, Thomas L. : Alliilavit KC, Mritisli rase Vi'i't Xew Hrun.swiek, assemlilv of: lii'iiort on I'lirroaclimcnts of I'liitcil States lisheniii'ii, Mari'li I-. I-H'.t IHM viii'-ail 111 iraitv court of: List of A iiiericaa vessels |irosei'iiteil, October ll."l-.V,' I HI couni.'il anil asseiiiblv of: Aililres.s to the Queen, Novemher 1, l-.V,' 1481 Address to the (/ueeii from citizens of fit. John, .Januarv, ls'.;i '.. 14'?5 Memorial to the Queen from citizens of XortliumWcrlaml County, January ."), l-^.^l! 14rjfi Newfoiindlatul: Descriiitiou of the lisheries of 100 Advauta;;es derived by United .States citizens from the tish- eries of 103 ;1 3484 ALPIIAMRTICAL INDKX. Ni-wfra\viir**'**''* '■'"' <<>'*' <>' nialnttMninco 14 In riiinniiiim nl'; AililriHs to ilic t^iii'iii, April '^:i, I'-.'i:) lIcK K'rlnniH lit' (Uli inijiitilH anil ••x|iiiitHi)t, iK'il tii IhTi". I.'i0y-|."i|;i liiNpateli oC Karl Kinilmrlfv to xiiviTiiur nl, Juno 17, 1-71.. Il.ll.l NIcIhiIhiiii, .liilin : Kviilrnrr on lii'lialf nf (Iii'at llrilHln.... Nti'liolHun, Liitlii'r (rnioii Wliart' C'iiin|iany ): Alllilavit Kt, rniliil Stati'H case :U.'l NN'IioIhoii, NirliolaM: Alliiliivit I'.i'-, rniti'il Stati'Mi'iiM" '.W>7 NickerHon, AlkinM (Ctnitral Whart ('iiinpany ) : Atllilavlt HI, IJnititil Stati'H CUH« lUW NickiTHon, Ciilili: Alllilavit ll*. I'liiti'd Statin tiisti :((I4J Nit'kiTHiin, Henry : Alllilavit it7, rniti-il StatiH < umo ;IUH( NirkerMon, .Faini'H A. : .Mlidavit :t7, Miititli lUiH \[\\i Nkkerson, SIi'IiIh'ii, Sti'|iln'n K.,anil Alini/.o ]{. (S. NiekiTKon »V Soim): Alll- ilavit llllt, I'liiti'il Slati'M ciiHK :t'.'(ir. Noble, HoLiTt (i. : Eviili'iirn on lirlialf ol'tJri'iit Britain |(»r».Vl(iti| Stati'iiifnls ofprlri't* of inarki-rel lU.'iti-l(Mi> Noil, Ah'XJH; Aftliliivit I'.M, Hrilinh cas 1;117 Noil, I'miifis: Alllilavit '.'10, MrillNli laso l;i41 Norton, H. II., rnltnl Htati-N consul at I'ictoii: Letter to 8.r A. Ilaniicriiiiin, October •J", l<>-> 14-7 Norwooil, (ieor}{i' : Alllilavit yf), IJniteil Statet* eaHi- WWO Norwooil, (Jeor>;i! anil I'retlerir ((Ji)or>;eNorwo(Hl & Son) : AtllilavittM, (Jiiiteil States iMiNH ;ii;io Nova Scotia: Ketnrn of lisliinK-vesM'lsof the IJniteil States at i'ort .Miilt;ravo anil their cutrli in l"'7:t and 1^74 •>->i-ii'J LI;;lit-lioii8e.s on tlie eoast of, nseil by rnileil Stales linliernieii . lO^f AildresH of tlie eonneil and assembly of, to the Kiny, coneeni- . 111^ enerDaehinents of I'liited States lisheriuea.... Wi'' Address to tlio (/neon on the same subject 14111 > asM-nibly of: AdtlreMM to tlio (/iieeii, February 17, M.V.t 1|h;1 representatives of: Address to the C^iieen, Mareh '.\*>, \6'>'.i 14H.J conncilof: Address to the t/iieen, April 4, H,");! 1484 (.Sir Encroaehnients.) Now Ian, .Tanies: Alllilavit 41, Itritish caM) ll.'d Nnte, ChaileM 11. : Allidavif vii:!, United Slates case IW-^T O. Oakley, .loseph : Atlidavit i>14. United States case :\'i'-i Outhouse, Amos H. : Atlidavit '■i'*\, British case 1417 Outhouse, Whitelield: Atlidavit V'SC), Biitish case 142.") P. Packwood, John : Aflidavit I'Ji, Britisli case, I'.il!) Paine, Joshua: Evidence on behalf of the United States *2074-JOh;{ Paine, J. and L. N. : Atlidavit l»0. United States case :UiD Paint, sr., Peter : Affidavit 44, British case lir)7 Paquet, Marshal : Affidavit '2'), British case ll'2A Evidence on behalf of Great Britain l)42-t)50 Parkhurst, Charles E. : Affidavit '.477, United States case 3J43 Parsons, Stephen : Affidavit 104, British case P^i*-i AhPilAltKTICAL INDKX. 3485 I till' .... ViiAy> I tint lf"M-7 .... I'-.VI-'i HI" ir.ou-i:.r.i •71.. ;iii» (Vi;»-(j:i.'. 'tlllt'H ;il.M itiitf'* :ur.j •.mi ;Utit; in.' ; AIU- -.wtir. itir.r»-iii«".t io,'ir»-i(Hi» i:il7 , l;i»l iiiiiiii. lt-7 :',(»,'.> Iiiiti'tl ;3i:{0 riiiiMi. lOrjf' iicerii- 1481 ur.i •.w" V2iO .... 'iiiw.-^r.vt .... 17:«-17<; ijy? '".. '.Mitr) '.'.'... U"':» 1417 142.'. 131S) '2074--JOrt;i iir)7 . 942-l»50 3 $43 I'lirnoiiK, 'riimiiM'* I,., DImh, '.M, iiihI Ut'ni^r tWilliiitit I'ltinnii.n, Vil, «1 Co.): Ani(lu>il l>;i. I'liilifl StiilrN (iiHc iU'J"' riirnoiiN, Williiiiii, V<1 ; AUhluvii •.M'l. Iiiiti-M SIiiIi-n I'lixtt ;i;Ullt Alllditvit '.'.■>-, I'll i ltd Siut.'H ciitu' :iW4 I'littillii, .ImiH'H W. : IM.lfiii.- on lMli!ill'..r \Uv fiiil.-il Htutop« ',»7 7 7 -'J *'.•."» I'litlllii, 'riioiniiN l(. : I'.vlili'iM'f 1 1 -I ravMtii, (Mmrlfs II. ; Allil7 l'iiVw)ii, .liini'iih l>. ; AtlldiiN it r.)7. KriliHli n)N« |:i'.M I'niitli, JmIiii: Al)liic/fr ('. ; Allitliivit l.'ill, I'mli'il KtatcM ciimp IW.tl l'(i I'liNe '.Wi lVt|ilfH, Siinini'l I'. : AHI, I.'iiit*-<1 KtittcH ciiitf.. . :tr.)( I'fiiiicll, llciiiy : AUIilavil 7;l, Itiitixli iii-f 11-*? IVrkiiiH, \V. II., W. II., jr., (Ji'Mini. ami -'i'il I'cny, (iillK rl ; Allidavit v.'!, lliitiNJi i-aw 1WI» I't'rry, SiaiiiNJaH I'., (nch I'oiiicr) r.-iry, William : IM.I.iir.- on li.lialf of tli.> rnifnl Stat.-s. '.M'.Kl-'.M',*: IVtii'H, .lami'M A.: Kvidrm Iidialf ol the I'liilcil .>| IVtlfnn«'ll. Cliaiii's I). : Allidavit .'.o, rnitrd Siati-s cani' :!li:» I'l-ttiiiKill, ('liaiitH(;. : Allidavit 1 I. riiitcd .st.itcH cuhh 'M'>\ IVItiuK II, Mo.sc^ ; Kvidfiicc on lifliall' of llii- I'nili'd States v!l\.M-'il'^-i I'cw, (.'hailt-.s II.: Allidavit ill, I'liitrd Stall's casi- 'MW Kvidmrc on l.idialf of tin' riiili'd Slatt's '.H7'.t-'i'.t07 row.,Iolin .1. (Joliii .1. IVw A Son): Aftidavil 47, I nilid Slates casn iillit riuOan, .lami's: Allidavit l.'i-'. llriliHli rase I'.'-'d riiilan, .lohn : Allidavit '-il-, Mrit ish case I ll.'il IMiillaimni', ('a|ilain: Kxtract from dispatch to Viii'-Admiral FauHlinvvo, Novi'miuT 1.'., 1-7(1 nor I'liiilimoro : IHh oiiinion as to tlic limits of maritiiiii^ jurisdiction isku lirief) l-'>li Thillips, David : Allidavit K>, Hritisli case Kill Picot, Jann'M : Allidavit '.W, Hritisli ras»» 1'J17 I'ieici", Albion K. : Allidavit 'U, rnited Stati's cnHO 'M)l'Ct Allidavit '.'(iit, rniti-d Statfs caso :{;!vJ.'> rine, Owen : Allidavit till, Hritisli casn 1 lfJ4 rini', I'liiliii: Allidavit Il7, Hritisli casn llrt-.^ I'iiikham, Thomas: Allidavit 'J-l, Hritisli rase 1410 Plover: List of Aiurricaii lishiiijj-VL'.ssfls hoarded liy, (hiring .July and Au- gust, 1H7(» l.Mll I'lumur, G. W. : Allidavit •■>•>, liiitcd Stati's lasi' :!0.'..') Kvidfiico on linhalf of tin; I'liited Htati's 'J'.»o7-'.".l-2tl Poirior, Staiiislna Kraiirois : i;vidt'n((; on hrlialf of (iroat Hritaiii ;t.">'.)-:t7il Pool, Solomon : Atlldavit '241. Initi'd States caso '.tlJOO Poole, Christopher C: Allidavit ',':!», I'liitiid Stati-s case :t;iOi I'ort llood : Abstract of the state of tin- paiicrs of Hritisli vessels at, in K>'i UHl Power, Mr., of the Canadian Parliament ; His vievv.s as to the advantajji! of reciprocity nnoted 127, lll"2 Power, Stoi)lieii: Allidavit :i, in reltuttal, British case I! 145 Price, Henry : Allidavit 18(1, Hritisli c:ise I'M') Prince Kdward Island: Dociiments lileil relative to American lisliiiij; in wa- ters of, Hrilish ca.se litO-llX; t/iiantity and valiieof lish exported from, l-r)()-187'J. •j:!.'>-j;j7 (.'(iiincil and nssemhlv of, petition to the (^iieoii, March ','4, l"t4;{.....' 14G5 Coiiiieil ;ind asseinhlv of, address to the (Jiieen, Feb- ruary ;>. K.'i ". 14G0 Meiiiorandnm of vice-admiralty court relative to seizures of lishiii;;-vess(ds 14"!!) List of foreij{n vessels boaided within !? miles of, in H7-.' iri()4 List of American vessel.s seen, but not boarded, in 1872 1508 Corresiiondeiue relatinjr to eiicroachtiient.s of United State:; tisUermeu tiiucu ldl8. (Sue KncrouchuieutH.) li i 3486 AMMIAUKTICAL INDEX. rrlviil,(i«'iiri. : AlliilitMl :*;. I'liitnl KIiiIi'n cum* aUll l'ro(!tor, JoMipli < ) : Atllihtvit .'>.(, I Hiiril Stiitix rii«i< . . :ii|7 lAiiliMMK on III hall III ilii' I nlli <1 Miutc^..,, ^/i',-iMi I'rnto(!fi)M iif cni'li iIiin 'n ciiiiIi'Dmm r : I, .liiiif l.'i, I"*'. < >i)(uiij^iitiiiii iiiiil rnltxi 11 II. .llllK' Hi, |"<77. ItlTMliU III' IiimI riilireri'llrf li-ilii J.'i III. .Inly •.'f', l^"*?. Aiixwi'iN, npliiH, mill lnii'fi llli'ij V, |\'. .Inly Mil, 1^*7. Itnii-li niN« mill Aiiifiiriiii iMiHNMT ri'itil It) V. .Inly :tl, l''7. .ViiiiTMMii miM\M'r mill lliilinli ii')i|y ivml...... .. |7 VI. AiikmnI 1, 1-77. MiilUh t\iili!i 17 Nil. Aii(iiiHt '.», l'"(7. Mtili^lirx iiiriHi' ciiiitiiiiiid... , lA \]]\. .\llHllst :l, l'"77. Iliili«ll i'\ lilrmr (•iililllllli'il.... |H l\. Aiinii'*' 'i, 1"77. liilliili i\ iili'iiii' riiiiiiimcil Ill .\. AiiniiHt 7, I "77. MriliHJi iilliilii\ IIm VO M. AiiniiHt ", 1-77. hiitinli iviiliiKi* (iiMliiiiiiil VI Ml. AiijfiiMt '.•, 1-77. ItiitiHJi i\ iilcin i> (uiiliiiiii'il '2-i .\ 111. AiiuMMt |H,l-77. IIiiUhIi IS iiliiinMiiiitlniiiil '/^ XIN'. AiiHIImI I:I, 1-77. llliti»ll r\ iilrlin riuitinili'll '/I XV, AiiniiMl 1 1, I"*?. Iliilihli fviilfinf riiiitiniii'il ^J W'l. Aiiniitt l.'i, l"77. ItiiliNJi I'viili'iiri' i'iiiitiiiiii><| vi .W II. AiikuhI 1)1,1-77. MritiNJi cviili'iiri' (•iiiilimii'il U>t XVIII. .\iij{iiMt 17, 1''77. MiitiMli i'\ iili'iii'M I'linliiiiii'il i^,', Xl.\. AnniiHt '.'••, 1-77. Hrjlihli «•% iili'iiri' I iiiiliiiunl 'jti \.\. AiiuMMt '.'1. 1-77. MrJIish cs iiliiiii- riiiiiiniii'il '/s X.\l. AilnilHt 'J'.', 1-77. Hlitihli fviileiin- coiiMl inl 'i\) X.MI. Aii){iiht '.'I!, I'"77. HiifiMli »'\ iiliiiin I'liiiiimuil ;io X.MII. AiiniiHt '.M. 1-77. niltisli iviili'iin- iiiiiiiiiiii-.l ;ii X.MV. AiiniiNt •J7, 1-77. HrifiNli mill Aiiii'iirmi I'v iiliiicd :i'J X.W. AiiKHHt, '.irt, l>77. Ittitisli t'vuU)iii;is |>riiiu)Hiil ol' Unih'tl SUtt'M ciiiiMiil :{;| X.XN'I. Aiinnst •.'".•, 1-77. lliitiHli i'vi ni« to iul X.\.\. Si'iili'iiiliiT :i, 1-77. Ifntinli I'viili'iiro ciiiiiiniii'il .\n XX.M. Sijiti'iiiliiT I, I''"". Ill iiiiil fviiiinriMontimifil .pj X.X.XII, .Si'iilcinliri' .'i, l"*/?. Arnimn'iitH lis to ciiiiiiiiiTciiil pris ili';;t's |;! X.XXIII. Sciiffinlicr (i, 1H77. < 'iiiiiiiniciiil awmils cxuiiuli'd .|l XXXI\'. .St'jiiiMiilni' 7, 1*77. Hiitihli cviilfiiii' iiiiitiiiiifd .(.-, XX.XV. .Si|iteiiiln'r 17, 1"77. Itiiiisli ividi'iicti cuiitiiiiiid |7 X.X.XN'I. .'^iptciiilicr l-^, 1-77. IliitiMh fvidriui! cDiiiimiid .|^' X.XX\II. SiiitiiiilitT l',i, l"'/". I'liiti'd .^miiH ia«'M ii|iiMii'il. Kviili'iit'«.., lid X.XXVIII, Si'|»ti'iiilmr '.Ml, 1-77. I'liitfd .'^lali'H r\ iilnirr runtiiiued .'lO XXXIX. .Si'idcnilicr 'Jl, 1-77, I'mtid .Statt's (n idem »• contiiiiifd .M XL, Si'])l('iiilit'i' V,', 1-77. I'liili'd Stall's eviili'iU'iM'iiiitiinu'd .M XI, I. .SfptillilMT '-'I, 1-77. I'liiti'd .StiiteH miilciicr ffilitiliili'd .VJ XLII. Si-ptciiilitT y.'i, 1-77. I'liitcd Sfatfs I'vidi'iici' ('(iiitiiiiifd ,'i;| XMII. Si']>tiiiili('r ytl, 1-77. I'liitid .**tatf.s fviik'iii'o ((intiiiiicd ,%( XI. I\', Si'iitriiilii'i' "..i", 1''77. I'liitt'd .Stati'M I'vidciic'H cdhtiiiiii'd .""i.! .XhV. . XLVI. (tctolicr 1, 1^77. Ihiittd .States ividt'iice contiiiiii'd .Mi XLVII. ()i;t<)liiT 'J, 1-77. I'liiti'd Stati'H I'vidfiii't; (■(iiitiiiiU'd ,<■)<> XLVIll, Oi'tiibcr ;i, 1p77. I'liitt'd Statin evidt'iict' coiitimipd ri"! .XLIX. Oi'tdlu r I, l'!77. riiiii'd States uvidcnct! cfintiimcd .'(8 ]j. (tctiilu'r ."), IH77. I'liiti'd Statts evidence coiitiinu'd .Ml LI, Octdlier >'', l'^77, riiifed StateN evidence coiitiiiiied (10 LI I. Octdlier !t, 1-77. I 'nit id States evidence con tinned 01 Llll. f)ct77. Luited States cvitlence continued (11 LVJII. October 17, lf77. I'liitcd States evidence continued (J.'j LIX. October lir!, li-77. I'nited States evidence coutmned ().'> L.X. October lit, lff^7. Inited States evidence continued (irt LXI. October ^'i, 1H77. United States evidence continueil (',(> LXIL October t •• • ir» • ••• ii* 17 17 H • •• • \H • •• • ID VO • • • • lil ■ ■ • • •JJ • •• • 'J:i « • •• v;» • • • ■ 'Ji Ui u.') »!■ • •« • v.> «tl a-^ U'.> -.10 :ii '!•» tlltl'H :t;t rt'KHt»H :in •M :m :u) •|!> Vi 4 .«.. t;t 41 ir. 17 Irt i!0... i'.O r.o r.i Til V r.:» r.i r.i .)>> r.tj M r>7 r,M r.'.> CO 111 Ci I'l-' (i;< (->;{ r.i <>;> «".') »;«] (*>(> 07 I'Mtt*. i'mtooil* of fin h iIii.v'n ni)ii(i-ri«ii('<>— rmiilniii'il, I, Mil. <>. ii.li.'i -.il. I-77. I'lili.'tl Siiit.'x.'viili'iiii. I'oiitiii I IW l,\|V, O.I..I..I v:., H77. Ililllxli ii-liiilliiit( i'\ kIi'iii- IIU I.W. Oi'tcilMi' '.'ti, I-77. Miiriili ti'liiiihi.K I'VHlfiin. I'ltniiiiiii'ii iltt I.WI. .Sc.M'iiilii'i 1,1-77. Itiitixli ii'liiitiiiiK ••viili'Mi'i' I'iMitiiiiii'il ...... 70 lAVII. Ni.\ ciiiIh-i' Ti, 1*77. I 'iiiIdI Hhiii'< i'lii>>ii:t( iirt(iuni'iili Iti'Kiin .... 71 I.W III. .\i.\ i'IIiImT I>, 1*77. I'llKi'tl .Slltli'N cloKllltf lllttUIID'llU I'olllllMli'il . V I hXIX. Novi'iiiIm'I' ■", {■'77. I'liKfil Siitli>« climltitt iii'kiiiiii'IiIh nonliiiii)')! 7'i I.W, Niivi'ImIm'i '.I. |-<*7. I'iiIIimI M(iUcm clonltiit iiruiiiin'iitt ■ mil liiiii'il 7'i I.X.M. Niivt-iiilHT lU, |h77, riilluil Hriiti'N rlimliiK urttiiiiii.ntM ion- ( ImiI.iI .... ^^i I.WII. Ni.vi'irilii'i r., 1-77. MrliiKli cll.H|||^ iit'uiiiiirnlH lit'^iiii 7;| l..\\!II. Novi'IiiIhm |ii, 1-77, llrilinli climliiK iir({iiiMi W. : .MH.Iiivit '.'.M. lliiliHJi ciui* i>ft rMl.llcovir, ,liiiiii-<: .Mlli|ii\it i:i-, llriliHli inti. \'il".\ rilMi'll, ,liiiiirx; l'',\ iilniri' oil lii'liiiH' i.l' liniit Miltlllll t'.'iK-lCH riiriM'.v, .lolin : Kx ul.tiro mm ImIihII' i.| lirnit lliit;iiii t" r.Mlt.Vi II. Kiif.', .IiiiiK-* r,. (Mil><.ii;;;itl A l.'i.Ki: .Mlliliivii |:l-2, I'liit. .1 .> I Dili Ifi'iiiiflN. Niiiii' \V. : Allliliivit •,'.'»-, MiitiKli I'liMt' l;i!t4 K't'iioiif. .lohn : Allliliivit 'i'l.i, llritiili iiimi' i:i,"i7 K'i'|i!,v I.l (iii'iit Mntiiiii to tin' iiiiswrr of tlii> I'liiti-il Htiiti>H Hill l.'iili", Aliiirr II. (I'l'iitiiil Wliiiil' Coiiiininv ): Allliliivit -I, I'liiti'il Stiili-rt ciisii. Ill.Vi l.'ii'li. .Marsliull .N. : Allliliivit I'.', fniii'd Stiifi's chhh :I(I||| Ikicliiiril, .laiiu'N .'4. : Allliliivit -I, ItiitiHli iiink II'.HI KMcliaril, .loliii Duiii.'l : Allliliivit 'JtU, Miiti'-h caso i:t;t7 K'iiliaid. Kiiii'*; Altlilavit i:!i;, lliitixli iiimi' TJCii KiclianlMoii, I'i'Iit .'^. : Kvidi'iii ii ln-lialf of Orrat llritniii '.•'.l.'i-KNll liiKjr*, Aaron : llviiliiici' on l.oliiilf of llm I'nitiMl .Stuti'r* '.i'J(i1-\J1Ji:l IklHtT, lkiifii.>4: Alliiliivit i:t:i. MriiiNli caso I'iW HiNMi'f, Kan; Allliliivit >".». MritiMli lasi. l',»(l«| Kitci'V, TlmiiuiN, '.r. : .Mliilavit ','.'.;!, Iliitisii ciihi' i;iH7 KolK'itH, riioiniiM C. : Allidavit -0, lliitiHli caMi- lilt.'', Koltt'its, 'riioniiis K. : Allliliivit ','.".."., I'liiti'd Mtati'N ciihi! 'X\'iO KobiTtHon, lliliiire: Alliiliivit l.V.i. Mriiisli cnsB I'Xt KoliiTtNoii, Michael: Alliilavit '.'.'.n, MritiHli caso I:t^4 Koni'ison, .lanii'H ,1. : Allidavit .".I, Itnti^li iiino IIHK J>oj{<'iH(ni, lion. .liiini'H .1. : .\lliiliivit U'i'2, iiud Htati'iiu'iit of lisli cxpoits from Ni'wfoiindlaiid, MritiHli riiNi. 1'2-1 UoiiH'iil, (ii'orne; Kvidi'iicn on lu'liiilf of (ireut IJritain -;!"'--i:i Kooncy, .laincN : .\llliliivit 1-7. Itriti>.|i laise i:>I'.i K'oonoy, .Mii.liat'l : .Mlidavit •J:i.">, Iliili^ii case Miilt Kosc, (ieorge : Atfldiivit .".1. Hritisli case IHW Allidavit fi, in iclMittal, Biitisli case ;!II7 Rose, .loliii : Atliilavit .Mi, Hiitisli case 1170 Koss, Ilaniel : AtHdavit :Wi, Mritish case li;i'.» KosH, WilliaiiK Evidence on bi'liiilf of (irent Itritain '.ill-Ii','!) Kowe, ,101111 .J. ; Kvidmco on l.eluilf of thu I'liited .States 'J'Jlli-'J'JIll Kowe, JoBeph (Rowo iV .lonljin ) : Allidavit (.7, 1'nited States CHse :ti:t'i Evidence on behalf of the I'uited .States '.WU-Siti:! Rowe, Sainnel T. : I'^videnie on behalf of the United States 'j:!(>'J-'2:t7H Rowe, William D, : Allidavit '^•'•i. I'liited States case 'X^'if* lioy, Loui»: Evideiue on behalf of Great Britain rl.'i-fcil? 11 II i :t4HH Al.l'IIAhKIK Al. IMM X. l(i)>iil(lii/<'ll«iliiri< iif llii> 1 1 III I til « ('iiiiiinUiiiiiii |:i Kiili'M III iiriii'i'ihiii' lii'l'iirn llii> I 'iMiiiiilmiiiii iitiit'iiilnl , Xi, !MI Klllllxi'V, III iih: Aniilll\ll No. I III irliiiinil, llllllllll IIM«* lllll |{ Villi, Mill till : AOIiliivit \'M. t iillixl Hiiiti'H iiiMi :iV)>i l<.viiii.riiill|): AltliliiOl \\fi, I'lntt'il Hiiilrvi'iiM \Wi KyriMiii, Huiiiiii'l M. ; Al)l Haiiiiicl,.liMiiKN: Atlliliivlt I'.)), llillUli i ii«n l:WI Hiiiltiili'lK, .liillll r., : AllliliiUt II, I'iiIIdI Nliili'n i'iihk :i|i)V HiiviiKi', 'riioiiiiin: r.viiliMHi' on ln'liiilfut Uiiitl llilliiln 7A4> 770 Hiiwvii, .1. \V. iiiiil KiiImU II, (.1. W. Hitw)fr A to.): Alltiliivit It", riillnd Kiiiti'ii I'ltNit :i|N',) HiiywiirtI, l»iiiiliii, |r , mill inniKi' : Allliliivll i.l, riillotl Htitli'M ruM :ilV*l Hi'iilioM I, 'I. Miiilxli «'uilir, >'li'i>>Aillliirill : |)l>«|iiitrli tn lln' He irtulv of Itin Aillllllillly I'Otl- ri'lliillir Allirrit'illl ) IK'KMirllllM-lllN, UcIiiIiki' MK 1-.V.» IITI |)ift|iiitrli til III)' Si'i'ii'tiuy of tlii< AUiulrulty, Nu- M'tiiiiiT I", \'*'i'i , l'i7ri Mii|i|iiiiU-)iii|M'iH 1)1 llojiiii^ vi'««'Ih : ('ii|iy ol', roriii til :tir>ii Mioil, .I'lliii : KmiIi'Iiit nil licliiill Ml'itii'iit III il III II 71*7 -*i>! HiiiiiiiN, < , I ■.".)<) Niiii'likir, I'lM) r ; AOIiIhn it '.'ill, Inllt'il KIiiIkk iiimi 'XW Nilictttt, .liisi'iih : Alllillivil '.'17, III it lull I urn- Ml'.) Hiiiiii'll, Willliiiii A.: I'Milnii'i' nil lii'liuit'iir lin'iit liiitiilii V^\ 111 HiloU, .limt'lO, : I'.viilriin' on lii-iiiill of Dii'ilt Itlitltl.i (jOj-Hi:! .SiroiM, I'iiiliitN: AllliLivil '.'•.".', llrllHli rii-Hi' IH.'.tl Skiniii'i', Arriiiliiilil It.: ADIiliivil ■.'.'>,'•. Iliiliuli cumu l:i'.*l .ski'iiy, .F.itiii'N : Mlliiiivit ',), lltitiNli iiihk llo| Siiiiill, Ahii \\ . : Alllilavit 1)), rnitcii StiitiN I'dNii :iii:t'.' Hinall.Ciili'li: Allliliivil |i):>, L'tillnl St»l*''< no«t :II7I .Siiiiill,.laiiii'H A. (Coiiti'ul Wliiiit I'll, i: ADIiliivIt H|, Inilt'il MtiitoH caiio :il.V.' Siiialliiy, CuHtiuiiiM W. : Dvidi'iico on lu'iiairor tln> I'liituil .StatiH Vfl fJ-VIH ■Siiialit'v, Cliaili'H 1°..: Alllilavit 17. I'liiti-il .'SlatifM ciinn :iO:i.'i .Snii'lt/.l'r, John: Alllilavit i:i.'i, llrltJNli cuhi' 1'.'.'>H •Siuilli, Aaron : Attlilavit 77, 1'mti il .Stiitcn i unu -U 1 1 Sinllli, Cliarli'H: Allldavit "I, llrilUli cunc ViOi Hniltli, Mil win : ]'.\ iiionio on bflnilfol tlit< I'nlti'tl Btiitttit '«''.jl!'.*-U.'tiIll-'J.''>7;i Smitli, TlioinaHCIiarU.'H: Alllilavit tit, I iiitfil ,Stati>soii.si! :I'.'1H Sniitli, William, controllot' of customs, tit. .lolin, Now JIninswii k, extract from roiioil of, l-^iiti , liv!') Siiiitli, William II.: ICviili'iicc on ln'liall'of (iitMtt Ilrituin lU7o-liHii Smith, William D. : Alllilavit -J.'.!, llriti^li cuso IIWH Kmyth, (Jhrislophi'r : Alllilavit llM. Ilritish rasn lv!.')l Sinill^rove. (Ji'ort;») T. K. : Atllilavlt M, ami statcnicnts of lierrin;; llshery in Fi>rtnnc Hay, llritish iuho. 11 711 Snook, .laini's 1*. : Alllilavit (10, ami ■•tataniunt, lliitisli caNo ll7o Snow, .lolin W. : Alllilavit 'i'M>, Hrilisli i av 14',' • ••••• . I',".t'l ■•'•''•' '.'..... I'M »ll " .. 1 ■•>•'" •• :::; iSi :u):w « ••n.vj ;»o;i:. '•'in "'. '.'•.'(Vj-yjc't mt;i Ulti HO..'.!. :uu ;u)'.>.' *.'.... i2.v.J»-y:'7:i :wiH uxtnict .'.' l07d-l(W(l licry ill ' 117:» 117i-. 14'Jti -.11 »o ■ VJ07 Wcath- :V.U2 Ai.piiAHKTifAi. iNnrx. IMfiO Htii|il«>li>h, .toliii : V.ftUht) ii iMliiiirnrOriHl llrlliilli.... IWI iKfJ HtttllMtli'w imimIiiikiI lilt lifliitll of till* I'liltnl HIiiIim i A|>|>«'tiilll 0)1 1. HIuIUHimI tliM'iiiiit'iitii ; IUImtIi'm uihI IfMla bulwanii tlin I'ltllml MUI<>« mill HrlllKli North Aincrlrit Xl>\ 'XKM I, liHiMirtiilloim of lUli Itilo till' riiih-tl 8luli>i« fiDMi hII t( lUli mill lUli iiriMliirlM from llrlliah Norlli AiiirricH, i-i;; i-;7 lUM ii. IiiiiioiIk iir lUli irotn ('miiiilii mill llritUli Norlli Aiiiirn ii, ilii(tal)l«< mill li.i', Hi'.t 1-77 :»;i:.i 4. iMi|M.ri». tiMi oi iiii kiiiix I- 1.'. i-7«i :t:i:.v i>. Minkircl mill lifrrtii; . |iiuiillly roimiiiiii-il In tliti I'lilltiil HIuIi'h, I-IW l'<7r. IKk'ttf tl, Minki'rt'l mill lirrrliiK: Aiiiiiiitl liii|»)rliilloii Into Ihi' Ciiilril HtHii'n, 1-77 Ktl :i:U!i 7, Mid ki'irl mill liming; Aiiiiiiiil iiii|Mirriitliiii into (lii< I'liili'il Mtiiti'N Iniiii IIiiiImIi Noitli Aiiiirii'.i, I-7V 1-77 .... XkVI H. Mm kiMi'l : liniHirlM liiln liilli'il HImIii Iioiii llritliili Norlli Aiiii*rii'tt, I-I" l-7r. XkVI tl. MiK ki r<>l iiii|miiIn lit IIiinIoii Iroin llrllixli Noilli AiiiitIi'ii, I- K)I :i;I.')4 III. Stalrlnt'tit III iliily « lit liiji ml I'loiii lliiniiiii III lltiiiili Niiiili Aiim'IIi ii, I'^l.'i |-7)i. W'XA 1,1. I;\|iiiiIk lit iikIi lioiii tliii tJiiti'il .Stikii'M to ItiitiHli Norlli Aiiurtutt, I -117 1-77 WXui I I. r,\|IOllH of liitll IVolll lllf rililKll Stilll'N to tllll llollllllloll of OlMimlU, iiikI lnollnr |>iii\iin I'H of Hiltinli North Aiiiirit'it, l-i>7 1^77 Il't-'ll l.'l, lillisn |l|'lllllll't III' till' .\tlM-|il'mi IIhIii'IICn l'M'l>|lt lliH Hllttlc, HiU-^t'Cd IkU'ill III. Vii'lil mill viiliii' ol till' (.'miuilimi llnhi'tii'N, |^7i> l-'7ii . IIIITilt 17. r,\|iiMtH ot'lUli 1 1 Ilrilinh Ntiith AiihmIiu, MTO Ih;:, nx'tH I-. I'lililii NlioNVIlitt 'HtllliMtirH of till' tliJlllllt'llrlliri' of liii'liliitili'll oil mill uiimio III till' I'liitril Siulm ill ilii< vi'iiiN l-7:i to l"7ii :i:).'>7 II. Nlltliri'lM mill toliliilKr of M'hMi'lN of till' I'liili'il Slilti'N I'llinlo^Miil ill tllll roil mill null ki'ii'l lislifiii'M fioiii |Hiili lo |-7li, invliiHlvti :i;i.'iil III, Hliiti<• '••■•■ • •••••■•••••• *liMll ■J. rioiliniH I'i Mil' llslii'iii'M I f till' Noitli Allmitli Siiiii'M ICIii'.', :t;li>:l :i, MlltrllH'litH III liiipDttH ol lilitrKi'li'l ;tt lliiitoli, ,l;ililliirv I In Si'|lti>llllii'r :i(», i'"77 '. ;t:ii;4 IN'. Sliili'iiii'iitM tiiki'ii troin iIik hookN of liloiiri'Nti'r llrinn, |iroiliiri'i| iiy .N|r, IliiliHoii, liii'il liy .Mr. I'lmliT on I ictoliiT'.'l. 1-77, mill oliji'cti'il to liy till' lltih'

  • iilili' iiM i'\ iilriii r, liiit inliiiiltril li,v ( 'oiiiinisiioniTH for nliut it limy lio worth: HiiMil Low A ( o.'n Niati'iiii'iil ',\'M\?t \, Li'i){iiioii iV Co.'p r.i,itriiiiaiiii'l Nu> waul UlttH \j. Slati'iiiiiil of I'niliiic k (i. \Voii,«ioii [VMVJ M. Stiiti' Ill of Samiii'l lla.'^ki'il IWtiH N. Slaii'mi'iit of Smitli A n.iki's IMIil) (). Mati'iiii'iit of Samiii'l Lain' A Mro 'S,i70 v. Stuti'ini'iil of Sliiiti' A Mi'ii'hant :i:i70 l}, 8fati'nu«iit of Wali'ii A Allrii :J:J70 K, Htati'iimiit of Di'iiniH A Ayi-r :J:I71 S. Stali'iiinnf of JoHi'jih o. I'roi-tiT 3:Cl T. Stati'ini'iit of Juiiii'H U. 'I'arr A Mro :i:i7l U. State It of Clark A Soiin's :i:i7'i 219 F S i3 I 3490 ALPIIAIIETICAL INDEX. StutiHticH iirdduct'd on licliiilf of flu- I'liitt'd Siatt'H (AppeiKlix ()). JV.— StuH'iiu'iitM takori from tlm WookM of (iloiit'c»ier tiriiiM, Au. — Coutiniiud. V. Stiiteiiit'iit of JoMi'ph Fri»)ti :t:!77-:{:iHi Steele, George : Allldavit :V.\, United Stuten ta«e :i(Hi| AHidavitrj?, United Stat»>M case :i|-Jl Stewart, Charles: Atlldavit '.i:»:t, United .States ease :i:t()l Stinson, Michad : Atliduvit l:{r>, United States case 'A'iOt^ St. John, N. H. Address to the l^neen from citizens of, January, Ih.VJ Ht St. John's, Novfotindlaiid : ('hainber of Commerce of, views on the reci- procity (jiiestion, June '25, l^.iH USfS St. Lawrence, Gnlf of: Lij{lit-honses in lOHf' Strahan, Asberry : AtTldavit 14.'), United States case IWli^ Stuart, Charles : Atlidavit 1G8, United States case :W41 Stuart, Daniel: Evidence on behalf of Great Britain (jy?, (i'.H Sullivan, Humphry . Attidavit >^ in rebuttal, liritish case :U48 Swain, David: Atfldavit 'M>*, Hritish case 14.')4 Sweet, William: Attidavit IVi, British case l'>41 Swett, Noah: Attidavit i:<, United States case ;{()-2t> (Agent of Commercial Wharf Company of WcUtleet) : Atti. United States case 3!f>4 Swim, Benjamin: Attidavit '24'.i, United States case 330LI T. Tapp, Mesiah: Altidavit IIM, British c.-iso Vm Tapp, Robert : Attidavit 'i(l7, British case i;j;i7 Tarr, David and James G. (James G. Tarr «fc Bro.): Attidavit 72, United States case ;{i:!H Tarr, James G. : Altidavit 37, United States case :{()1>7 Tarr, Moses: Kvidence on behalf of the United States 2378-2382 Tarr, Zebulon : Attidavit 278, United States case 3344 Taylor, John F. : Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 817-827 Terrio. Simon. (See Theriot.) Terry, Russell D. : Attidavit 23.-., United States case 3303 Testimony in rebuttal on behalf of Her Britannic Majesty's Government: Examination of Mr. Henry Yonle Hind 3:!D9-3443 Testimony. (See Evidence and Witnesses,) Theriot (Tsrrio) Simon : Attidavit li^2. United States case 3254 Thomas, Jerome B. : Attidavit 77, United States case 3144 Thomas, Richard : Attidavit 124, British case 1244 Thomes, C. D. (Thomes, Chase & Co. ) : Altidavit 111*, United States case.. . 3190 Thompson, William (Cunningiiam A Thomj>sou): Attidavit 58, United States case 3122 Thomson, S. R. : Opening speech in behalf of Great Britain, July 31, 1877.. 1521 Argument against the right of tiual replv, August 28. 1877 1523,1525,1531 Argument in favor of awards for right of ])urchasing bait and transshipment, September 5 and 6, 1877.. 1547, 1.577, 1579, 1581 Final argument on behalf of Great Britain, November 19 and 20 1777-1885 Thornhill, Philip : Attidavit 5 in rebuttal, British case 3446 Three-mile line : Opinion of international jurists relative to, quoted l.-)()-HJt) Thurlow, George D. : Affidavit 252, United States case 3319 Thurston, Abram : Attidavit 299, British case 1428 Thurston, Winthrop: Attidavit 244, United States case 3311 Tierney, Joseph : Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 957-903 ALPHAUETICAL INUKX. 3491 I'agK. TItcomli, W. P. (Treiwiiry Drtpartnmnt) : C.Ttiflciife antl stuteiiu'iit of niini- bor iiiitl toiiim>{») of lIiiittMl Htiitos linliiii>{ tittot ir^tJii to 1*71) XVtO Toluiaii, (tuorxe: Attldavit 111, Ciiiftxl Siutim cuhh UIHU Tory, JuiiioH A. : Kvidouce on liehalf of Oreat Britain 8G4-H7(J Touzel, IMiilip: AtHdti. it '2:»l, HritiNli caHH i;Ui:{ Tower, Aliralinm II.: Aflidavit 100, United StatoH case 31t5D Towntujnd, JoHeitli : Al)i1, I'nitiMl Stateit caHu 3'i*jt{ Trach.v, Kdward : Attidavit 1'.)'., BntiHli cane V^M Trantt.sliipniunt of uargiM-M: I'rivilt');*) of, nut alluwvd an an oleuient in the award 7,40, 4:<, 4< Hritixh claini to |»MMiniary conipeimation 172-i7;t Motion to cxiiudtsas a battlN of awardn ; debute tberxon Septonilter "> and ti, H77 15;W-15S8 Trask, WaHace : Attidavit iiHH, British case 14!iO Treaty of Washington : Articles relatinjj to the Hsheries 1, B3, 1'.VJ Extracts from instructions to Her Majesty's Hi)(h Couiuiissioners 'i'Vi Extracts from protocols of conferences 'i'.VJ Tredick, C. Morris: Artldavit 101). United States case ni78 Trefethen, (". & H. : AfHdavit 121, United States case 'Md'i Trefetiien.Ueorge (Portland, Me.): AfHdavit No. H, United States case 3001 (George Trefetheu & Co.): AHidavit 117, United States case 3187 Trefethen, George W. (Ireland &. Trefet j,,n): AHidavit eo, United States case 3147 Treniain, Edward D. : AHidavit 27(5, British case 1411 Troscot, William Henry: Motion in behalf of the United States respecting the right of Anal reply, and the debate thereon, Augustas, 1877 I.'.21-lu38 Arguments in favor of right of tiual reply, August 28,1877 ir)24, 1.-.35, 1537 Argument against awards for right of purchasing bait, aiul transshipment, September 5 and (), 1H77 1547, 15(>(> Closing argument on behalf of the United States. ir>29-1651 Trufant, Albert T. : Affidavit 6, United States case 291)4 Tucker, Daniel : AHidavit IH), Britis* case 1218 Tucker. George (George Dennis & Co.) : AHidavit 52, United States ca^e. . . 3116 Tulk, William : AHidavit 1)7, and statement of vessels calling for ice and l ait, British case 1216 Tupper, Joseph J. : Affidavit 247, United States case 3313 Turner,Ezru: Evidence on behalf of United States 234,5-2362 I I i i IT. Union Wharf Company, of Provincetown, Mass. : AHidavit 8.3, United States case 3151 United States: Answer to the case of Great Britain 119 Brief upon the tpiestion of the extent and limits of Canadian inshore fisheries 139 Upton, George A. (Leighton «Jt Co.) : AHidavit'l, United S atescase 3137 V. Vardon, John: Affidavit 202, British case 1310 Vattel, on the limits of mantitue jurisdiction 162 Vavasseur, Hui^h : Atiidavit 65, British case 1180 Vessels: Revised schedule of, seized in 1870 for violations of Canadian laws. l.'>OiJ Foreign: List of, boarded within three miles of Prince Edw^ard Island in 1872 1504 American fishing: List of, boarded by the Plover, July and August, 1870 15»l United States fishing : List of, seen but not boarded in waters of Prince Edward Island in 1872 150S United States, employed in cod and mackerel fisheries : Statement of, 1866 to 1876 3359 Belonging to Massachusetts: Employed in the mackerel fishery in 1853 3380 Vibert, Philip : Evidence on behalf of Great Britain 446-462 !! 3492 ALPHAHETIt'AL INDEX. W. W'ikU', Edwiinl : Atlldiivit lOvJ, Hiitinli cuhh I'J-Jl VVftltsii, he<)iiiinl : Adiilavit titi, lliiitt'd Stati-t* cuhc — ;u:!l Wuloii, Micliaul ((tf Wnlcn iV AIUmi): AnUliivit 4!», riiit«>ehalf of the United States '2llt7-yri(Mi Was«att. C. (C. WasKatt A.Vo.): Atlidavit i:)7, United States case IWld Watts, William: AlHtlavit •^(i7, Hritish case 14(il Weatherbe, Mr. : Argument in frtv«)r of awards for rijjl't of imrcliasing bait, and transshipment, September r> and (l, li^"7 I'loH Weaver, C. A. & Co. : Allidavit i:U>, United States case :Wl'J Webb, Patrick : Atlidavit 1(>'., United States case :W;i'.» Webb, 8etb and C. H. S. : AHidavit 44, United States case ItlO'i WeekeB, D. F. : Allidavit 104, United States ease ,.... :?17;{ Welleslcy, Vice-Adniiral: Dispatch to tlie secretary of the admiralty, No- vember IH, IHClt MilJ Corres(^()ndence with Mr. Jackson, United States consnl at llaiifiix, Angiist and September, 1H7U. 141(4, 141)5 Wentzler, IJenJiimin : Allidavit Hf), IJritisli case.... ViO.\ Wentzel, Martin: Atlidavit 270, British case 140.') Wentzel, William: Allidavit 141t, Hritish case 127:$ West, Donald: Allidavit liO, Hritish case 1281 Whelen. Manris (Morris): AtHdavit U.'i, United States case 'WWi White Fawn, tlie : Jndgme it in the case of :5;Wl White, .James F. : Allidavit 7, Hritish case lUKt White, John: Allidavit 7f>, Hritish case llHO White, John D.: Atlidavit H, Hritish case lOlKJ White, Thomas H. : AHidavit 2:!7, United States case :i:?Or> Whiten (Whitten), O. H. : Allidavit 1 Whitten, O. H. (Lewis, Whitten &. Co.) : Allidavit 114, United States c.ise. ;U84 Whiteway, W. V. : Arfjnment in favor of awards for ri>;ht of pnrchasinfj bait, and transshipment. .September 5 and (J, 1877 1505 Final arguments on belialf of Great Hritain, November l.">, 1877.. 170.->-172:{ Whorf, Philip A.: Allidavit 1)1, L'nited States case lUliO Wilkius, Edward N. : Allidavit 274, United States i;ase :j:$4l Willaid, Enoch G. : Allidavit 7, United States case.... 21)1)7 Allidavit 112, United States case ;U81 Willard, Henry E. : Allidavit 5, United Stiites case... 2l)l)0 Willard, William H. (Lewis, Whitten A: Co.): Affidavit 114, United States case 3184 Williams, A. T. (Union Wharf Compiny) : Affidavit 8:?, United States case. ;U51 Williams, Gilman S. : Evidence on bebalf of the Unitetl States 2.">7:5-2.')90 Winser, Peter : Affidavit 78, Hritish case 111)2 Winter, Thomas ; Affidavit Oti, British case 1181 Witnesses examined in beh.alf of the Hritish Government: Tlieir testimony: 1. Chivarie, Simon : Sonris, Prince Edward Island 24:J 2. Maclean, James: Souris, Prince Edward Island 281 :i. Campion, John F. : Sonris, Prince Edward Island 1104 4. Campbell, Joseph: Sonris, Prince Edward Island 3:U,37() 5. McNeill, William S. : Rustico, Prince Edward Island 343 C. Polder, Stanislas F. : Tignish, Prince Edward Island 3.M) 7. Howlan, George William : Cascnmpec(iae, P. ince Edward Island 374 H. Harbour, George : Sandy Beach, Gasjie 31)4 9. Sinuett, William A. : Grift'en's Cove, Gaspe 404 10. Grenier, Grf^goiro : Newi>ort, Gaspe 411 n. McLeod, William : Port Daniel, Gaspt^ 417 12. Vibert, I?hilip : Perce, Gasp^ 44(5 13. Fox, John James : Amherst Harbor, Magdalen Islands 462 14. Mackenzie, George : New London, Prince Edward Island 488 15. Bennett, Thomas R. : Harbor Grace, Newfoundland 502 16. Killigrew, William : St. John's, Newfoundland 5.52 17. Fraser, James O. : St. John's, Newfoundland 575 AU'IIAUKTICAL INDKX. 3403 I'aKo. ■ li=>. vi-n ■ U». :u:u 1 20. • • • • •M\i 1 21. **t r>s-'-M(;o 22. :w(;r. ^ 2:». .... :wr.7 24. :viwt 25. 1445 20. ;v.wn 27. ;no() o^J. .... 'J4i»7-'ir.(i() 1 2i». ;wiii :?o. 14(11 :n. bait, :?2. 1 -).■)« :t;t. :5'ji'2 :54. :?'j:t'.) 35. :nor> :<(•,. •.U7;{ 37. f, >o- 3H. 14'.ti ;?'.). states 40. 1H70. 14l»4,14<)r. 1 41. i'2o;{ 42. 1405 43. ViT.i 44. Vifil 45. :u)i>(5 4ti. :v.wi 47. uoo 48. lllM) 4i». l()ii:{ 50. :?:«)5 51. :<()()!) .52. 1 oas«). ;UH4 .53. .54. 15G5 .55. enibor .5(!. 170.V179:5 .57. •.U(>(» 58. •.mi 51>. 'il«)7 CO. ;U81 CI. yyjo C2. States C3. 3184 »)4. case. '.U51 C.5. •257:5-'i5t)0 CC. 119'i C7. llSl C8. niony : (>!t. 24:J 70. 'i81 71. ;?04 72. 3:u,:i7(> 73. :m 74. :?5'.> 75. :$74 70. ;5'J4 77. 404 78. 411 79. 417 80. 44{) 81. 462 1 82. 488 1 83. 502 1 552 1 1 575 1 (Irnnt, Aiij;ii«: Tort HawkcMlniry, Cape Hn-tDU MuKav, .laiiu's ; I'dit Miilnravt', N. S rurct'il, .laineH: Port Mulnravi', N. S Hanliiine, Kdwaril: UritiMli Navy NicLolmm, .loliii : Loiii>(l>uin, Cape Breton Mnguirc, .lohii : StiM'ji Croek, N. .S Itrown, William : Port Medway, \. S Hi){t'low, .laines \V. : Wolfville, N. S Stajiletoii, .loliii : Port IlawkeHhnry, Cape Itreton Wrayton, Mioliael : ItarriiiKton, N. H Stuart, Daniel ; Halifax City McLean, .lanu'H : Letite, (Iliarlottu Comity, N. H Lord, Jaini'N : Deer iHlaiul, N. 1< McLaujjlilin, Walter 15.: (hand Manan, N. B Savage, I'liornaH: Cape Cove, fta';e: Perce, (Jaspe Mac(loniiell, William : Argyle, N. .S Holliday, .loliii : Quebec City Tory, .Tames A. : (iuysboronj^li, N. S McDongal, Robert : Port Hood, Cape Breton Fortiii, Pierre: Quebec City Hickson, .lames: Bathurst, Gloucester, N. B (Jardner, Knos: Tiisket, Yarinoiilh County, N. .S Ross, William : Halifax City Creed, C:i::.les: Hali fas City Dillon, .lolin : Steej) Creek, Guysboroujjb County, N. S Pa27 <)37 !t42 9.50 9.57 903 907 971 970 980 995 lOOl iock; 1008 1014 1017 1019 lO'^O 1021 1022 1021 1023 1025 103(! 1043 104(5 104l> 1055 1005 1075 1086 3398 I 3494 ALI'HABKTICAL INDKX. Paje. WituoNHeH u\ninin«!<] on behiilf of thu Uiiitml Htattm; their teHtiinotiy: 1. Kratlloy, Jitmt'H: Nuwltiirypurt, Muhh 11K)7 'i. tStapltttoii, K<1 ward : OlouceHtur, Masa IDt^Tt :». Chcnoy.S. F. : Graml Munau.N. B 11)45 4. IiiKerHoll, David : (iloiiceHter, Muhh 1951) f). Atwood, Natlianitd E. : I'roviiicetown, Mums 1'.>H1,*^47 (i. Kenip, Har/illa : W«dlfleet, MasH iW2H 7. Freeman, FraiiciH M. : Provincutown, Maw 2041) H, Cook, Henry: Provincotown, Muhh *20t\ij !). Piiine, Joshua : Provincetown, Mam tii078 10. Freeman, Nathan D.: Provincetown, Masa S^OHlt 11. LewJH, ItungH A. : Provincetown, Muah 3')87 12. Graham.James W. ; Weimeet.Mass 20y.''> lit. Newcomb, Daniel C. : Welitieet, Maw 2114 14. Pettinuill, MoHes: Newburyport, Maas 2121 15. YonnK, Isaiah C. : Well «eet, Mass 2128 K). Daniels, Timothy A. : Wellfleet, Mass 2i:U 17. Oliver, D. VV. : Wellileet, Mass 2132 ]H. Friend, George: Gloucester, Mass 21l<:< ID. Orne, Charles M. : Gloucester, Mass 214H 20. Maddocks, Uenjaniin : Gloucester, Mass 2ir>'J 21. Leiffhton, Andrew : Gloucester, Mass 2178 22. Kig^H, Aaron: Gloucester, Mass 2204 2:<. Ilowc, .John J. : (iloucester, Maxs 22i:t 24. Gale,JohnH. : Gloucester, Mass 22:11 2.'). Kvitt,.Jobn K. : Gloucester, Mass 2241 21). Cook, Benjamin F. : Gloucester, Muss 22.V2 27. Smith, Edwin : Gloucester, Muss 2262 28. Mclnnis, John : Gloucester, Mass 22t)'J 29. Procter, Joseph O. : Gloucester, Muss 227') :{0. Gardner, Sidney : Gloucester, Mass 2:U2 lU. Martin, Stephen J.: Gloucester, Mass 2310,2344 32. Macaulay, Michael : Gloucester, Mass 2327 33. Turner, Ezra : Deer Island, Me 234.5 34. Kowe, Samuel T.: Gloucester, Mass 23()2 3.5. Tarr, Moses : Gloucester, Mass 2378 30. Ashby, Benjamin : Noank, Conn 2:t82 37. Brown, Joseph F.: Gloucester, Mass 2390 38. Mills, Peter H.; Deer Island, Me 2401 39. McDonald, William H. : Gloucester, Mass 2404 40. Dickey, William A. : Belfast, Me 2411 41. Gray, Elvarado : Brooksville, Me 2418 42. Hulbert, Robert H. : Gloucester, Mass 2432,2471 43. Smulley, Castanua W. : Belfast, Me 2442 44. Googins, Edward A. : Portland, Me .' 2448 45. Burgess, Isaac : Belfast, Me 24.53 40. Brier, Charles H. : Belfast,Mo 2450 47. Walsh, Dexter F. : Belfast, Me 2458 48. Londrigan, Lawrence : St. Mary's Bay, N. F 2400 49. Hopkins, Richard : Belfast, Me 2401 50. Clark, George O. : Belfast,Me 2469 51. Gurrie, James : Pictou.N. S 24H2 .52. Perry, William : Sheet Harbour, N. S 2493 53. Warren, Thomas: Deer Island, Me 2497 54. Fisher, Wilford J. : Eastport, Me 2,506 55. Lakeman, Joseph : Grand Manan, N. B 2527 56. Smith, Sylvanus : Gloucester, Mass 2534 57. Williams, Gilman S. : Gloucester, Mass 2573 .58. Low, David W.: Gloucester, Mass 2590 59. French, Eliphalet W. : Eastport, Me 2096 60. Davis, William : Gloucester, Mass 2710 01. Cook, William O. : Gloucester, Mass 2711 62. Hill, Edward: Gloucester, Mass 2714 03. Conley, John, jr. : Rock port, Mass 2721 04. Knowlton, John C. : Rockport, Maas 2729 65. Myrick, James H. : Boston, Mass 2740 60. Nelson, Chresten : Gloucester, Maas 2705 67. Patillo, James W. : North Sroughton, Mass 2777 68. Baird, Spencer F. : Washington D. C 2795,2821 ALPIIAHETICAL INDEX 3495 Pago. liM)7 192f> 11)15 IDf)'.) 1<>I1,W47 2028 2041) 204)1! 2078 20H:J 2')«7 20ur> 2114 2121 2128 2i:u 2132 2i:u 2148 2151) 2178 2204 22i:t 22:a 2241 2252 2262 22«)9 227r> 2:U2 2:nC,2344 2327 2345 23(>2 2378 2:W2 2390 2401 2404 2411 2418 , 2432,2471 2442 2448 2453 2456 2458 2460 2461 2461) 2482 241)3 2497 2506 2527 2534 2573 2590 2696 2710 2711 2714 2721 2729 2740 2765 2777 .. 2795,2821 I'litje. WifncHHCH exniniiii'd on ln'liiilf of tlio I'liiti-d Statfi.—Coiitiniii'*!. fi'.t. iMuH)*, Williiiin.I.: ClicNt.-r, N. H. 2^16 7(1. Cliiiriliill, ll 74. J'liiinor, (J«H)rg« W. ; CJloii(»-i0 76. Howe, JoHnpli ; (ilotici^Htor, M»mh 21*31 77. Woimoii, IJoj^or W. : (JloiicoHter, Mast* 21M3 7H. Hal)N()ii, Fit/, J. : (ilouw'Htcr, Mann 295t> WuiiMoii, FrtMltMifk (i. (John F. Waiwton \- Co.): Atlltluvit 3(», ITnitod Statt-M cane 3088 Wanson, Joliri F., Fredoric (.J., Koyor \V., and Franklin A. (.lolin F. Wanson A Co.): AlHdavit 75, United .States caHo 3242 Wanson,.!. Warron : Atlidavlt 2.jr>, Unitud .Stat«^H case 33v'() Wanson, Kogj'r W. : Fvidtnico on behalf of the United States 2m3-21t.'>t> Wanson, William C. : Affidavit 27. Unittxl States case 3077 AtHdavit60, United .States case. 3125 Wanson, W. S. and S. 0.,,jr. (Wanson Urothers): Atlidavit64, United Htates case 3129 Wrayton, Michael : Evidence in behalf of Great Britain 692-696 Wjse, William: Allidavit UKt, Drilish case 1326 Y. Young, Tsaiah C: Evidence on belmlfof the United States 2128-2131 Young, Nathan, (Central Wharf Co.): At!idavitH4, United .States case 3l.'>2 Young, lion. Robert : Evidence on behalf of (Jreat Britain 1006-1008 Young, Stephen (agent of Central Wharf Co., of Welltleet): Affidavit 94, United States case 3162 Young, Sir Wra, : Judgment of, in the case of the Wampatuck 3383 In the case of the A. H. Wanson 3388 In the case of the A. J. Franklin 3391 In the case of the J, H,Nickersou 3395 as. Zwickcr, William N. : Affidavit 91, British case 1208 O