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PROCEEDINGS

L/

oi>- rrii';

International Fisheries Conference

MKI.IJ VT

SH
219
168
1892

DETROIT, MICHIGAN.
I aesday and Wednesday. Dec. 20 and 21, 1892.

Mr. Whitaker, of Detroit: I will call
the meeting to order and state in a gen-
eral way the origin of the International
FisherieH Conference and itH t»l)jectH.
Sometliing like two years ago the par-
liament of the Province of Ontario,
passed an act appointing a Game and
Fish Comr.iission, and empowering that
commission to take testimony on the
condition of the fisheries of the great
lakes and the inland waters, and also
the game of tlie province. They were
also rei|nested to confer witli the states
bordering on the great lakes respecting
the fisheries and the enactment of nni-
foriplftKB.for the protection of commer-
bf the great hikes. Th«
Qll'orts of that board was
at New York. At the
ftftng ihe' Province of
think the .State of New
kaps some of the other
«SOT*Vii ll'aTes, although I am not sure
about tluit, were rei>resented. Very
little was done at that meeting,
was finally adjourned to
ester. There some disc
upon these matters, and
tees were appointed,
tions were jtresentecl
and tlieir further difffusBij

and

poned to a meeting called in Mamilton, i
sometime about October of last year. At '
that meeting the subject was taken up
and pretty fully discussed; and 1 think
as !■ result of that meeting some reixmi-
mendations were made to the parlia-
ment of the Provincial (.ioverninent.
Since that time, through the ettbrts of
tliat (fame and Fish Commission, some
|>rotective laws have been passed, and 1
believe they consider that there has been
some l)ene(it derived therefrcm.

It was thought at that meeting that it
would be beneficial to all of us who
have an interest in these things to have
an adjourned meeting, and keej* uji the
organization, and upon my invitation
that body adjourned to meet here some
tiniv; in Octol»erof this year. Hut owing,
as stated in the circular sent out, to the
pendency of the presidential campaign,
it was deemed best to po.stj)one it until
after the close of the campaign. We are
to-dav m^pti^irforUiat ail loll rued confer-
'■ncu^^W^sule^i^gTiI'wti^*^^r we thought

1^4^*'*^^'^ '"^'t'' ^Jvu,iicJitt'<^ bj^O^ler scope
thft '^proceedings of a -vortfwence of
^ kind than was originally |ontem-
Those wlu> are engagea in fish
e know that^lie decay of ^le fish-
has been constant an<t 'gradual,

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notwitliHtamliiiK the states are engaged
in iirtiticial propagation, and doing their
utmost to restock the great lakes as well
as the inland waters. lUit really the
j matter in whi(;h the states are most
_/ ^j< 1 interested, an<l the p ople, is the preser-
vation of the commercial fisheries ui
the great lakes. It seems to me beyond
all (piestion that the lines along which
we shall work must ])e tha same; that
our views should he uniform as to the
necessity of imposing a reasonable regu-
lation ui)on all fisheries, that will pre-
serve for tlu' future the benefits of the
great lakes and their immense food pro-
<Iucing jtroduct. It is to the interest of
the jteople most decidedly, because here
nature provides for us, without the cul-
ture of imin, a constant and increasing,
if i)roperly i)res( rved, food supply, and
a very important one — a cheap food and
a wholesome one. It is certainly in the
interest of all classes that this business
should be i)rotected, and the thing we
have to contend against as fish culturists
is the fact that while we are annually
putting into these waters, for the pur-
pose of renewing them or sustaining
them a large number of Hsh, and the
governments have been liberal in this
matter of propagation and distribution,
we are confronted by the fact that thou-
sands of tons offish are annually taken by
the fishermen that have never come to a
mature or sjiawning age. This process
of lishiug is destroying notonly our own
work, but is destroying the fish thatar,'
naturally in the lakes which are taken
before they.havi' ever spawned. What
we niuHt all face is this question of how
we shall peri)etuate ihe fishing on the
great lakes. Incidentally comes up the
question of whether we shall have a
close season that shall be uniform with
Canada. Canada has a close season of
the month of N'ovemljer, the month in
whicH the Hp!U^^j|||gi[^«Ml^^iIloi(ls is
principallyj|(|TOim5w E'ilferJ^J^so
the que3|jf^^^Q^lllll h"Wj;^da(jj(m ♦'

should

other r(

I wil

to invil

mi^npon fisherman in ot .

<pevt«
say tluv

here

tiJ*M>Tisi(|or tnese

anfs
ues- A

tions with us the commercial fishermen
of the great lakes. They, 1 believe,
understand that we as fish breec' rs
are not attenii)ting to interfere with
their business, Ijut that as people who
represent the states, as peofde who
are attem])ting to renew and build up
the fisheries, we ask them to heij) us to
impose some regulation that shall not
take from the great lakes or smaller
l)odies of water these immature fish,
and that have no commercial value. T
think now, gentlemen, I have stated our
objects broadly enougli.

The presiding officer of this body at its
last session was Senator McNaughton of
New York. The Senator is not here,
and T will take the liberty of inviting
nominations for a chairman of this meet-
ing. What is your jdeasure, gentle-
men ?

Mr. Huntington: I nomiinite Mr. Mc-
Donald, th(( manager of the Buffalo Fish
Oom])any, as our chairman.

Mr. McDonald: I had rather be ex-
cused. I would prefer to ha»e some of
the older memliers have that honor.

Mr. Post: I nominate Mr. Bowman of
New York.

Mr. Bowman: I prefer not to act as
chairman of the meeting ; I was not pres-
ent at any of the former meetings. As
Mr. Whitaker has stated the objects of
the meeting and is perfectly familiar
with the subjects that will be under dis-
cussion, I think he is the proper man to
act as chairman, and I will move to
amend the motion, and will nominate
Mr. Whitaker as chairms
ference.

Mr. Whitaker: Gentl
much prefer that yoi
else.

Mr. r>owman: I will^

Mr. Whitaker was unanl
§d as presiding officer of the conterence.

Mr. ^^'hitaker: Gentlemen, I thank
mating me as chairman of
[his J^etntfc^at tin; same time 1 shouM
ha^j^^ry miioL i)referred to have })een
(T'tUi^i^oor to\di8cuss these matters

^e want you to discuss

^ Mr. Hoi

'^.

OHAWA

i?»'-Bnnoii

w

tliehe nuittcr.s, ami you can call some
one else to the cliair, and take the floor,
any time.

Mr. l'os<t: I nominate Mr. Amstlen as
secretary ot this meeting?.

Chairman Whitaker: It i? in order h>
nominate a secretary, and Mr. Amsden
of Rodiester, has been so nominated.
Are there any further nominations?

A vote wa.s taken and Mr. Amsden
was unanimously chosen as secretary.

Chiiirmaii Whitaker: I have a letter
from Mr. Booth, of the A. Booth Pack-
ing Company, of Chicago, one of the
largest dealers in our lake fish there is
on the borders of the lakes. He savs:

CHiCAdo, Dec. 17th, 1892.
Herstiii'l Whitakfr. Esq., Del, oit, Mich.:

Dear Sir— I am very sorry to say that I am
called away to New Orleans and shall not return
in time for your meeting at Detroit, but I sin-
cerely trust you will have sufficient people to
attend the International Kish Conference and
that their deliberations may result in the gen-
eral ;rood of protection of fish and fish culture,
the enforcement of laws and the passage of
others that may be beneficial. There :;eems to
be generally throughout the states guod laws
for the protection of fish and game, but unfor-
tunately there seems to be more " honor in the
breach than in the enforcement." We have
called the attention of some fish commissioners
to the small meshes of pound nets and gill nets,
which I think do more to destroy the fishing in-
terests of the lakes than anything else, and I do
hope we may profit by the better ob.servance of
the laws in reference to the protection of fish
and game enacted in Canada, or rather the en-
forcement of it. 1 should very much like to see
a more cordial feeling existing between our
country and Canada in reference to uniformity
of the fish laws, and trust at your deliberatiotis
much good may result an'' am
Very sincerely yours,

A. BOOTH,
-.. ,«!! '^;'J*President \. Booth Packing Co.

'nIffilftt'&'rt'Whitaker : For the purpo.se
(if securing the names of those i)resent,
HO 'that thc^ may appear in the record,
the Secreta-y will now hand youapap«'r
on which you will pleas" write your
names.

The following gentlemen were found
to he present:

(!. V. Osborn, Dayton, C)., Fish Com-
mi.ssioner.

L. D. Huntington, New York, Fish
Commissioner.

Wni. H. Bowman, New York, Fish
( 'Ommissioner.

Samuel Wilmot, Ottawa, Canada, Su-
perintendent of Fish Culture of the De-
partment of Marine and Fisheries of
Canada.

Edward Harris, Toronto, Ont.

Thomas Marks, Tort Arthur, Ont.

F. W. Gould, Searsport, Me., Commis-
sioner of Sea and Shore Fisheries of
Maine.

\V. P. Andrus, Minneajiolis, Minn.

Dr. Robert Ornisby Sweeny, Sr., Du-
luth, Minn., president Minnesota (lame
and Fish Commission.

Herscliel Whitaker, Detroit, Michigan
Fish Commission.

J. C. Parker, Grand Rapids, Michigan
Kish Commissioner.

Hoyt Post, I)(!troit, .Micthigan Fish
Commissioner.

W. B. Wells, Chatham, Ontario Fish
and Game Commissioner.

Charles S. Ham[)t()n, Petoskey, Mich-
igan Fish and (iame Warden.

Frank X. (Mark, Northville, Mich,,
I'nited States Fish Commission.

Krank J. Amsden, Rochester, N. Y.,
Cheajx'i' PVxid Fish .Association.

C. I>I. Keyes, Sandusky, Ohio.

John J. Speed, Detroit.

Hon. ^V. AV. (rridin, Detroit.

Wm. Dujiont, Detroit.

A. G. McD(Muil<l, Detroit, manager
Hnffalo Fish Co.

John Zimmerman. Detroit.

Hon. Otto il. Ru,sch, Detroit.

C. H. Moore, Detroit.

Hon. George C. (ireen, Detroit.

Wni. Craig, Detroit.

A. Solomon, Detroit.

James Craig, Detroit.

Hon. L. C. Hough.

Hon. S. R. Kingsley.

Chairman Whitaker: I am in receipt
of a large number of letters, a few of
which I will take occasion to read to
yon .

Letters were then read from Mr.
Kmory D. Potter, of Toledo, O., and
others.

Mr. Green: 1 have a letter here in
answer to one 1 wrote, from an old fish-

/a

ci'iiiiiii of thirty y<'iirs' (.'xpcricnc*'. f
woiilil like tf) have the luttor read to the
confcrotK'c.

Mr. Wliitakcr: No doubt the confcr-
eiico would he j,dad to hear it. The 8e ■-
retary will j)U'ase n-ad it.

The Secretary read tlie letter of Mr.
licvi Browu, of Sand Beach, as follows:

San'I) Heach, .Mich, Dec. 19, iS'.t2.
Afi . (I'ri'cii ;

DiCAR Sir— In reply to your letter wiM say I
am (jflad to hear (roiii you. I wiU give you my
ideas of fishing and what ought 10 be done in
the future to protect the hatcheries and fisli. I
/ have fished ahout,Jhirty years now, and you

know thsrflliave always utade a"siiccesr of it.
The hatcheries are a great help toward increas-
ing the fish, hut unless something is done to
protect the small whitefish we have for a number
of years i)liiuted - ii nnmV.er of millions each year
I —we shall fail. We find that these fish are
I ca\ight when ixily from one to two i)OUuds in
J weight, as you know, and they are only half
grown. For one place th.?y are destroyed in .Sagi-
naw Hay by the tons and in other places the
same. We understand that the small mesh has
been a failure in the way of protecting the small
whitefish. I think the besl way is to put a fine
on the man who catches them, also on the con-
sumer, or who ever has them on hand — any-
thing under one and a half pounds.

Vr,a know these small fish \>'hen caught could
be thrown back into the water and would live.
Fish of that small size are of no use to anybody.
There should be a fine of Jioo to 5500 for any
man who is caught with them. Unless this is
done the fish are not protected much.

I think the fish ought to have a rest the same
as the game, to give them a chance to gather on
their feeding grounds. Now there are fishing
tugs that fish the year round unless it is a verj'
hard winter. I .im not talking allogetherabout
others, as I fish with'a tug and sail boats my-
self. I can make a success of it if I have five or
si.x mouths out of the year, aiul others should be
satisfied. I think in the spring, from April 1st
"^ to July 1st, and in the fall, from Sept. 14th to Dec.
ist, should be a close season. This gives us three
months in the spring and three months in the
fall to fish. That is six months to fish, and that
ought to satisfy the fisherman. Some may
think the Canada fishermen will have a better
chance, but I think not, for as they hunt them
up they would crowd on this side. The fish
work the same as the game, Some fishermeti
may think this would be a damage to them, but
the price of the fish would come up sol think it
wonhi be a benefit to all the fishermen. Mr.
dreen, I give you the best of my ideas, and per-
haps yon cau better them in some places, but I
hope this will give satisfaction to all. Don't for-
get to let me know how you prosper with this,
yours respectfully,

i:,EVI BROWN.

■<r i*" ■

,» *■■*. •»•!■

■ ■■W:-

(■hairniaii: (leiitleiiien. we have pre-
pared a program of the suhjects
whieh shouhl bo discussed by this coii-
fereuee, wiiich is as follows:

TiriO .NKCKSSITV KOR .\ .N Kn'ICIK.VT K.N-
roRCKMlCNT OK LAWS |!V A I'AII) KISU
AND (1 A.MK DEl'AHT.MKXT.

I.

1. Should the Department be under the

Fish Commission ?

2. Number of Deputy Wardens.

;>. CoinpiMisation of Chief Warden and

Deputies.
4. Terms of oHice.

II.

1. Should there be a close season for

wliitetish ?

2. If yes, what shall be the limit ?

15. Shall a restriction be pat u])on the
size of fish to l)e taken or ha 1 in
posssession or on the size of mesh '.'

4. Penalties.

III.

Close seasons for brook trout, grayling,
California trout, brown trout,

f Loch Leven trout. Land l^oeked
salmon and small moutlied bass.

I. What should be the unifoi'm close
season for brook trout, California
trout, brown trout. Loch Leven
trout anil l..and FiOcked salmons.

■2. Black bass.

IV.

(ta.mk — Close seasons, etc.

Chairman Whitaker: In some re-
spects, gentlemen, the first subject for
our discussion and considetjrimi' itt my
oi)inion is one of the mostipwf^j'talftt we
have for consideration bere. What \\v
need to do is to agree npoftt a, uniform
fish and game warden law. And it
should not be a fish and game warden
law tliat simply provides places for men
who do not perform the functions of
their i)uti»i»r rnfortnnately for the State
of Michigan, and I know that is largely so
in th4 State of 0 lio (I think their law
is ver^v much the same as ours), our
law CfiUs for the appointnient of a ( hief

'**■

'^^

and

t

warden wIioho I'oniptfnxation is::«l,20() a
year, and is paid l)y tin- state. It per-
mits the appointment of not more than
three depnty wardens in eaeli eonnty by
the chief warden, and tiieir coniijensa-
tion is fixed l)y the IJoard of iSupervisors.
Tile result has l)een tiiat we have al).so-
hitely no enforcement of the law, he-
cause the supervisors will fix no com-
pensation, and therefore the wardens
are simply H<j;ure heads. What the
state should do, in my opinion, is to
pass a law which should make these
wardens paid by the state — should pay
their expenses by a warrant drawn on
the State Treasurer, and countersi<i;ned
by the Game \Varden-in-(!hief. I may
have s(jmethin<5' further to say upon it,
but it seisms to n)e this evil may be
remedied in tliat way.

The subject is now o))en for your dis-
cu.ssion. In the first place I think this
subjectought to be anticii)ate<ll)y the dis-
cussion of the ([uestion, should we a^^ree
upon ii uniform warden law? I will take
the liberty of calliufr upon one or two
jrentlemen whom I know are familiar
with the enforcement of the laws in their
localities. I will ask Mr. Wilmot to
give us the workings of the warden law,
so far as he is informed in his jurisdic-
tion, and to talk upon the matter before
us as in his judgment he should.

Mr. Wilraot: .Mr. Chairman and (ien-
tlemen — 1 feel a good deal of deference
in appearing befoi% you. In the first
place, we do not'come here to represent
the Province of Ontario or any of the
l)rovinces of Canada. We come here on
behalf of the Dominion Government, to
listen to what may he said, with a view,
if })ossible, to learn something and to
give as much information as we can, but
over this (piestion of wardenship we
have no jurisdiction whatever. The
Dominion of Canada has had laws con-
trolling these matters since the federa-
tion, but at present there is a disi)ute
arising between the local governments
of the i>rovinces and the <lominion on
that ((uestion. In the meantime, the
Ft'deral (tovernment is making what are
termed the fisheries laws. Thev have

for several years aopointed what are
terim-dtlu' fisheries officers. The Domin-
ion (jovernment has nothing whatever
to do with the game laws. They are
wholly under the jurisdiction of \\w f^f
ii(*+m4*t^. The local governments of
Cana<la have control of the game laws.
Therefore, the proceedings we are enter-
ing ujjon are quite beyoml my jurisdic-
tion to give you any light U|)on. If the
ipiestion comes up with regard to the
ai)i)ointment of the fisheries oHicers I
will be glail to gi\e you what informa-
tion I can. P>ut it is beyond my power
to give you any knowdedge upcni this
subjt'ct of game wardens, bi-cause we
have nothing to do with it. If we hav(!
any representative here from Ontario,
perhajjs he can do so In the mean
time, 1 must decline to discuss that sub-
ject.

I might also state, while I am on my
feet, that I notice the meeting has been
called the International Fisheries Con-
ference. At first I was under the im-
pression that it wasn't my sphere to be
here at all, because ^t is not our j)rov-
incetodeal with international questions.
International (piestions can be dealt
with only by the federal officers of the
Cnited Slates on the one hand, and
(treat Britain on the other. This could
hardly be (tailed an international meet-
ing. With all due deference to the In-
ti'rnational Fisheries Conference, I
think it more appropriate to i-'all it an
Inter-state State Fisheries Commission,
in which the states proper would have
an opportunity of expressing them-
selves, but international action, I think,
is beyond the jurisdiction. of any of us.
We in Canada have to leave all tho.se
questions to a higher power— Great Brit-
ain. The Province of Ontario had given
information to you previously that they
were desirous of havinga meeting of this
description, The Province of Ontario
never communicated that wish tothe Do-
minion (Government. We never had any
knowledge of it. Conse(iuently the Do-
minion Government had no (communica-
tion, and reteivi'd no invitation from
the previous meetings you held, which

V.

%

y^

<l

I diiotncd of ji;rt'at iiii|Mntai>i'('. riiciiia-
Hon why we arc Ihtc Ih this: The Do-
iiiinidti (iovt'rnmcnl a|ii>oiiite(l a special
coiimiiHsioii, coiiHistint,' of myself and
my cfdlcaKiies, ^Fr. Karris, of Toronto,
and Mr. Marks, of I'ort Artluir, to invos-
ti^atc matters in tlic Province of On-
tario with a view of ast'ertaininj; what
(^ould l)e done to improve the fisheries
and if possible to do away witli the
cause of the comi)laints and clamors
that now exist amonj^ the fishermen in
their work. They were all complainiu",'
of the scarcity of fish. They were all
complaininjij of improper close seasons.
And that special c(>mmission has been
eufja^'ed during the last few vvei'ks in
taking evidence around Lakes Hrie,
Huron, the Geitrgian Jiay,and a portion
of hake Ontario. While away fnmi
home I receive*! your kind invitation to
attend the meeting, but could not ac-
cept it at the time, because our duties
did not extend sufficiently far to enable
us to attend meetings of this kind. I
tlicrefore telegrapfied to our Minister of
Marine and I'isheries asking whether
we would be permitted to come here
and listen to what miglit be said, with
a view of being benefited by any expres-
sions that come forth h''re. His con-
sent was given ; he telegraphed, " Hy all
means attend the meeting," and hence
we are liere. When you get down .k
the (juestion of fisheries f will be glad
to discuss that, but it would be out of
place to say any more

(Chairman VVhitaker: I will say to the
representatives from the Dominion Gov-
ernment that we are exceedingly glad to
have them here, and we hoix- they will
participate in every subject that may
come up for discussion. This child, the
International Fisheries Conference, was
baptised without my consent. I did not

and it has all been tending toward the
general good of all in that line. We ask
((Very person who is interesteil in tliese
(juestions to be present with us at our
meetings and express their sentiments
freely. It binds no one, but if by these
conferences good can l)e brought forth,
the states and the provinces are so much
benefited.

I am aware of the fact that the State
of New York has one of the most efli-
cient lish and game warden systems of
any of the states. We wonld be very
glad to hear from any of the uuMubersof
the New York commission iipon tluit
matter. The ((uestion befoie us is: The
necessity for an ethcient enforcement of
laws by a i)ai<l Fish and (Jame Depart-
ment. 1. Should tlu' department be
under the I'ish Commission? 2. The
number of d«'puty wardens. :>. Com-
pensation of Chief Warden and depu-
ties. 4. Terms of office.

I will call upon Mr. Huntington to
exi)lain the working of the New York
law.

Mr. Huntington : To this (piestion that
you propose to discuss: Should the
department be under the Fish Commis-
sion? I should unhesitatingly say, Yes.
Our Chairman here has the law of the
State of New York with him, and it has
been but slightly changed in relation to
the fish and game protectors from the
law that has existed for some few years,
but under the provisions of the Codifica-
tion l>ill we revisetl ourentire game laws
of the State of New York'at the last ses-
sion of the legislature, and enlarged the
powers of the commissioners. I'nder
that law, which has been in existence
since ISfay last, the old system was im-
])roved wherever it was found to be
defective, and the new system has been
ound to Ite verv effective.

baptised without my consent. I did not iound to Ite very enective.

know what its name was untillong after^^ F would briefiy state the workings of

the act was jierformed. It makes buTy our law thus: The foundation of it is

very little difierence, however, what its
name may l)e, the lu-oceedings that have
been liad at these meetings have been
in tlie nature of a conference of states
and provinces, or whatever you may he
pleased to call them, of different nations.

this: The api>oiiitment of the fish and
game jirotectors, as they are termed, is
left with the commissioners of fisheries.
Within our state there are twei ty war-
dens, and I would state that their terms
of office are subject to the control of the

n/

/

ooiniiiissionerH; that tliey appoint or
they remove for cause. We have uiuler
this system a chief game protector, and
the other game protectors an; directly
lUKler him. When any cases of serious
complaint arise we investijiate tliem and
refer them to the chief warden or j;anie
protector, and lu' nuikes a tliomugh in-
vestigation and re])orts, and then we
take the matter in haiul, and if \vc have
any reason to believe he has been dere-
lict in his duties, we dismiss him and en-
<leavor to get a better nian in his })lace.
The state is divided olf into districts as
compact and as easy of access as possi-
ble. There are nineteen of these dejtart-
menls or districts, and to each one of
them is assigne<l a protector, and liis
duties are to carry out the game laws in
that district. It makes larger districts
even after dividing the territory of the
State of New York oti" inU) nineteen
spaces than is convenient, l)ut it is
the best we can do. The Chii'f Protec-
tor visits them and takes general control
over them, and wherever he has any
reason to beli»ve that further vigilance
is recpiired, or if there is any violation of
the game laws: going on in any particu-
lar district, he takes the matter in hand
and he may call any one of the protec-
tors from one district to another to
prevent the violation of the laws. The
pay of the game warden or game pro-
tector is fl,0(H) a year, and he has his
traveling expenses paid. Flis traveling
expenses amount to but very little, for
there is no railroad in the Stato of New
York ])ut what cheerfully gives him
passes. I have no doubt he has passes
to-day in his pocket over every railroad
in the State of New York. The nineteen
general game protectors receive a com-
pensation of $500 a year, and traveling
expenses, and when convictions are
made and penalties are intiicted and col-
lected, the exi)enses of the court are de-
ducted from that, and a moiety that is
so collected goes eventually into the
hands of the fisheries commission, and
from there, upon properly endorsed pa-
pers by the Chief Protector, the protec-
tor who makes the arrest and causes the

conviction receives the moiety, the bal-
ance of the penalty .so collected is a
reserve fund for purposes of emjdoyinu, y^
where necessary, coun-sel for protection. ^>i^

That, gentlenuMi, is the system of pro- \
tection that exists in the State of .Ni'w
York. The comnussioners have every
reason to believe that it will be, and is in
fact to-(hiy, a very etiicient system. We
have reports from every direction in our
state, and when we hear an inspector is
not doing his duty we investigate the re-
ports, and sonu'times we lind there is
some reason in it, but too freipiently we
find there is some nialiee, or some other
motive than a proper one which has
actuatt'd the complaint. Perhaps it is
till' very elHciency of the protector him-
self that leads to the complaint against
him. We find the warden law etii-
cient; we timl the administration of it
t<i-day, with i)erhaps few exceptions,
very satisfactory, although I say, in my
capacity as a commissioner, that under
till' large powers, umler the increased
niunber of game protectors, and under
the new code, which is plain, clear and
concise, particularly as to the game
laws, it reciuiri's some little modifica-
tion, more particularly in phraseology.
The bill W'as two years in getting
through the legislature. Many of the
members or their immediate friends
wished to get their little special mat-
ters for their localit}'^ through, and the
bill has been amended so much that
its symmetry has been somewhat de-
stroyed and interfered with, but that
can be easily rectitiivl. We have every
reason to believe that the working of
the present system, with some slight
modifications where there is vagueness
in the construction of the law, will be
attended to this winter, and we will
have a system of protection within
the State of New York that* is good
and efticient. I am a great believer in /
the idea that the game wardens should /
be directly under the control of the fish \
commissioners. I do not see how it can j
be efficient in any other way.

Mr. Osborn : What becomes of the
other half of the moiety you spoke of?

^^r. lIuntiii(,'t(>M : It is left in (lie
IiuikIh of till! coiiimisHioiierH us a spc-
cial fund for tli(^ pinpOH*' of ('ini)loyiii;;
roiiiisci ill iiii|i(»rtiint caHCH.

Mr. (►sliorii: It is iihsoliitcly iiiidcr
lli(> control df tlic coinniissioncrs?

Mr. liiiniinjrton : Yes, sir. \\\' have
two or tiirct' important rases now,
iiml w<' iiavc \{) use thai inon(>v in
tiiat way.

Tlic Cliairinan: The mutter is now
ojieii for ihsciission, and we ho|)e all
will |iartici])ate in it, contininjj; theni-
HvlvOH to tln' (jui'stion : " The MeeeHsity
for an l'',Hicient Knfoi<'emeiit of Laws by
a paid Fish and (iaine l)e|iartment."
Mr. Bowman, how tloes the moiety
system operate in New York? Will
yon state whether prosecutions have
been made, and with what result, ami
whether, so fur as tlu^ seizure of nets
is con(!eriiod, the law has been (en-
forced ?

Mr. liowman : So far as that is con-
rerne<l I will say that our wardens were
tirst appointed by the (iovernor. He
had the appoi'itment of the diU'erent
wardens, and it was more or less i)oliti-
cal at that time. Subsequently the ap-.
pointment of the wanlens was <iiven to
the Fish (Commission, and they were
increased to twenty, a,<-' has lieen stated.
The state was subdivided by the Chief
Protector, each havinji; control of his
own district, and the chief having; the
rijrht, where one was too well acciuainted,
to import to another district one or two,
and make a raid here and there. Tn
almost every district thronsihout the
state we have reports every month, at
our meetings, from each game protector.
They report the number of nets Sv 'zed,
the number of actions commenced, and
the amount of work generally done by
them. And in almost every one of these
reports ^ou will find seizure of nets of
fykes, gill nets and set lines, by every
protector through()Ut the state. They
are taken before a magistrate and de-
stroyed. He destroys them. So there
is no (lue^tion about tliat. At first we
had some dithculty in procnrfng convic-
tions. Actions would be commenced

before a justice and he would call a jury
in that locality that would invariably
sympathize with the lishernien, and ver-
dicts were rendere<l by these juries with-
out any reurard to evidence whatever,
lint latterly I think we have bei n gain-
ing, and the opinion is growing through-
out the entire state that it is alisolutely
necessary to enforce tin; game laws and
jirotect not only the tish but the game
of our state to prcvt'iit it from being en-
tirely destroyed.

The .Atlirondack regions are l)eing
fornuMi into a jiark. < >ur state has taken
hold of it, and it is built U|) now with
cottages, almost everywhere wlu-rever
there is a valuable site. All throu<ih
the .Vilirondacks you will tind cottages
where some gentleman takes his family
to spend the summer. I can state from
observation that the deer of that local- -
ity have doubled within the last five
years under this protective system, and
I am very glad to say that the guides of
that region have become protectors with
us. They believe in it. The express
companies have been sued by us for
traiis))()rtinj: f-'imie, and we are, we
think, enforcing the game laws by look-
ing as well after the express companies
as the poachers. The poachers wont
kill the game unless they can sell it. If
we can prohibit the transportation and
prohibit the sale in the markets we take
away the inducement to the ])oacher to
kill the gtiine, and one poacher who is
ac(|uainted with the countrv will kill
more deer in one day than a hundred
sjiortsmen that come from New York.
The deer laugh at the sportsman. They
are not afraid of the New York sports-
man at all, but when a man has been
brought n[) in that country, and knows
the habits of the deer, he always comes
home with venison. He knows where
they are, and one such man destroys
more tieer, as I say, than a hundred
sportsmen. But if he knows lu? can't
sell them, he won't destro} them. They
occasionally shoot one for food. In that
way we have prevented a large number
'A deer from being taken out of the
orest. And it is the same with trout.

?

9

iipaiiicH

•K wont
it. If
II II lid

we take
lier to
who is

ill kill

11 1 id rod
York.
Tiiey
sports-
< been
knows
comes
where

estroys
ndred
can't
They

In that
ninber
of the
trout.

'Pile trout about the Kiiltoii ciiain of
lakes where we have been stocking: for
tile lust ten years, more than any other
placi' in the Adirondack rej^ioii, have
doubled within the hist five years. Tlic
close season is obscrvcil. They are jiro-
teeted. They arc watciicd closely. \\'c
dfi not allow them to lish until tlu' sea-
son opi'iis on the loth of April. The^
close season is respected, antl we are do-
iny; throiijrh the protectors an admirable
work in the State ol" New York. My
own jud^mi'nt is that you may turn
loose as many fish as you please in l^ake
Krie or Lake Ontario, and through the
did'ereiit lakes of the states, and if yon
allow poachers to «o alon<,' and tak*-
them out, without fear of prosecution or
arrest and penalty, it is entirely useless
to propa),'ate and distribute. They can
tak(( out in one week more fish than we
can put in in a year. They even have
j<oiie so far in our state as to use dyna-
mite and other explosives. They use
nets. 1 have seen a net with (irst a
large mesh, and about a foot from it a
mesh of one and a half inches, and then
a foot from that a mesh of an inch, and
they stretch that across the water and
they take out everything. The first
mesh took out the large fish, the iie.xt a
smaller, and the next a still smaller li.'^h.
Nets of that kind will take out uU thi-
fisli in a stream.

Our warden law has worked very sat-
isfactorily with us, and I say it has not
only protected the game and the fish,
but it has also educated the people.
We have a far better feeling among
the people, among the farmers, among
the guides of the Adirondacks, and
among all the fishermen of the state
in favor of protection than we had a
few years ago. I think that perhaps
is the best bulwark we can have. If
we can educate the people and get an
intelligent public feeling on this sub-
ject, we have a way in which our tish
and game will be protecrted in the fu-
ture. The only way to have anj- tranie
or fish in the future is to jireserve
and protect it now, and we will have
very little trouble in the future. I

think public opinion is growing very
rapidly in our favor, and in a few
years you will liud game clubs in
every county. There an; many game
clubs ill our state now, and they are
eiliicatiiig public opinion up to that
point where 1 think we will have far
better lishiiig and shooting than we
have had for years be 'ore.

Mr. Iliiutington : Allow me to sii[)-
pli'iiieiit my remarks by calling atten-
tion t(.i one point. \\'e have umler the
codilied bill which has been in force
since the fifth day of May last, (me sec-
tion that is the lic-t section we have in
llie liill, and that makes this provision,
which 1 look upon as an admirable
thing in tiie bill for the protection of
our game and iish. It is a sei'liou which
gives the coniinissioiier the power, on
the application of tlie Hoard of .Supervi-
sors, or of any incorporated association
for the proti'ction of game and lish, to
aiipoint as sub-deputies such persons
whose names are subiiiitted to them,
who are chithed with the full power of
the game protectors. These men receive
no |)ay or comi)ensatioii from the state,
with the exception of the iiioietx in case
of conviction. We have within our
state a large number and rajiidly in-
creasing number of societies or incor-
])or;'* d organizations, lisliiiig clubs and
hunting clubs, and .so on, and by incor-
porating them under the state law,
wliicli is very little trouble or exjiense,
these clubs employ some good and wor-
thy men, they have them in their em-
ploy, and they pay them, but thosi' nu'u
can ])rotect their property. Those nu'ii
are emjiloyed and paid by the club,
good, faithful men, and they think a
good deal of them, and they are ready
and willing to render any assistance, but
they were powerless, they had no power
of arrest. Now, by the making of an
application, and sending the namcor
names in to the commissioners, the com-
missioners have the power to appoint
them, and give them their certilicate,
and they become virtually a portion of
the regular force of the i)rotectors of the
state. Of coursi' those men are alroadv

^/'

10

(MUjiloyed by tlio tlul), uiul tlu'V uri'only
too gliul to havt' them (iiialilii'(l witli
autiiority to inaki' arrt'sts, ami they
niako ariH'sts ami may follow oH'cndt'rs
aiiywlicn" i!i the stato, ami in cast; of
coiivk'tioii flic law applit'H iii the matU'i"
of inoii'ty the same as to tlio rcjiiilar
force, 'riu'y 'Tct'ivi' one-half of tlu'
moiety that is ])ai<{ to the coininissioii;
ors, ami that is the onl_y eompeiisatiou
they .uet, eoiiset|uently they are not one
eent expense to the state. Now, siiiee
the (irst of May last, when this oeeame
a law, we have had apj)lieatioiis and
havi' a|>;>oinfed ovei" forty of siuh in-
spectors, and I believe in less than a
year we shall havt' lifty if not a hnndri'd
of such ;iood, ellieient men. I think
that is one of the best provisions of the
law in our state.

Mr. Osborn: There is no limit to the
nninber you can appoint?

.Mr. lluntintrton: No, sir. itrestsen-
tirely with the Commission. I will
state that the Webb Company ii. their
}>r"servi', have apjjointed six men, ami
they li'c ellieient men, and those men
are obliged to report, under the system,
asare the regularinspectors. And thosi'
men are not costing the state one cent,
'''he South Side Club iiave four.

.Mr. Osborn; Can they be sent out of
their districts the same as the regular
j)iotectors'.'

Mr. Huntington: They never do send
them out, but they have the right to
send them out.

Mr.OsboiMi: I'rovided they want togo?

Mr. Huntington: Yes, and they are
'(required to niaki^ nu)nthlN reports to
the Chief (Jaine Proiecto;'. We get tlie
reiiorts of all the game protectors, and
from the rejiorts we see the reciu'd of
tlie men, and wc know whether they
are perl'orndng their ilnty oi' not. It
helps us nuiterially.

Tlie ('hairman: The (I'.iestion is still
before the conference, and is op >n for
discussion ; the t'esirability of a uniform
system of game wardens.

.Mr. Tost: In order to bring the nuit-
ter before the uu-eting, I oiler this reso-
lution:

\

i

lii'nuln,!. Tliat it is the sense of this
conl'erenct' that the necessity exists for
an ellicieut and uniform enforcement
of protective laws by a paid lish and
ganu' department on the gen.eral basis
of the XewYork h'w.

Tlie resolution was duly seconded, ami
di^'lartMl open for discussion.

I>r. Sweeny, of Miuuiisutu; I would
like to recite our experience and wl:at
we have tiie<l to do in regard to this mat-
ter, rpto two years ago, in the State of
Minne,sota, we hail a fish commission
whose duties were simply to propagate
and distribute tish. We had no special
jurisdiction over the game or the tii-h.
The general law was that every sheriti'
and police oilicer was a game warden.
Theconsivpicnce was they industriou 'v
let it alone. Two years ago the Fish
Commission was reorganized into what
is designated as the 'bum' and Fish
Commission, and they had authority to
ap))oint a game \ arden and four depu-
ties, and when we i-amt- to look at the
matter the amount of money at our dis- ^
I)osal was so limitetl (we had bnt.'?10,0()0)
to propogate and di.-;tribute lish, and to
watch the gauu", that we found it utter-
ly impossible so to do. We ai)pointed a
ganu' warden who had jurisdiction over
the whole state. I'mler our law we
have authority to appoint spec'al war-
dens, in any ani! every county, a id s])e-
cial wardens for any county, so that he
can lollow a law breaker and poacher
from one county to a.iother, bnt liy
some oversight in the law he has no
auth.u'ity to arrt'st any more than any
other citizen. .^ nd we have lonnd many
defects in that way that are brought
out out in the ease of an attempted con-
viciion. We are working under that
law, and have been by appointing special
deputy wardens in the counties, and in
some counties we have lour or live or
six. And in otliiT localities there is one
d'.puty warden that has to look after
two or three counties. We found that
our money would not allow us to pay
salaries to llu'se speeia! wardens. Wi'
pay their actual exjienses that they
have borne on itemi/,o<l vouchers, and

^

4-

1 I

u

e of this
"xists for
troeiiu'iit
ii^-li and
■rul basis

i<I«(i, aixt

I \v<m)(l
nd what
til is inat-
' Statt' of
iiiiiissioii
ropajiate
I) special
the li^h.
y sheriti"

wanh'ii.
^triou 'v
lie Fisii
ito what
ml Fisii
lority to
ir (lopn-
k at the

our (lis- J

.•i?10,()()0)
, and to
it utter-
ointed a
ion over

law we
ial war-
i id spe-
that lie

loaciier

Hit by A:^

lias no

an any

\ many

•roufjrht

I'd con-

r that

special

and in

live or

' is one

k after

id that

to pay

-. We ;

t they \.

rs, and y

we allow then, two dollars u day for
^^the time actually enijiloyed in followinir
; or arrestiiijj;, and i!i any case of convic-
tion we give them a reward of .*-")• We
tind in this as in any other employment
that soiiu' are !j;ood for nothing;, utterly
inelh(!ient. while others are ellicient and
do good work. Tiiey have turned in
thousands of yards of nets tons, and set
lines, and every conceivable trap for
killing fish.

These wardens aiH> appointeil on the
recommendation of the citizens of the
state, some on the recommendation of
game dubs, and they are removable for
cause. If they are ellicient they hohl
their ollice for tw(^ years. In case of
conviction and fni(>. tlu' lines are tnriu'd
into the State Treasury to the credit of
the (iaiiie and Fish ('onimission. We
tind in our attemi)ts to regulate the
depredation;; that th(> greatest obstacle
to the enfoiHenient of the laws are the
V,. L j)etty odicers, county otlicers, justices of
\ tlie jieace. Some of them have instantly
decidi'd the law unconstitutional, and
dismissed the charge. Others dismiss
them with a tine of a dollar or lifty cents.
In one instance where I had at least ten
men taken before a justice of the peace
for shooting moose, then jn'ohibited for
a period of ten years, our warden was
admonished he ought to be in belter
nusitiess, and to let these fellows go,
there was plenty of ganu'. 1 am ,sorr\
to sav that in most instances the vio-
lato>'s of the law are frequently en-
couraged by the game peoiile. They
furnish them with nets and suggest to
them where there is good lishing. and
say to them, we do not know where you
are g<»ing to fish, but we buy all the tish
and game you can furnish. They aic
shijipiug niiitbiii (?l done uji in sacks
that has been killeil since the lirat of
this month. We have found out in try-
ing to prosecute these depredators that
our law is woefully inellicien't, so much
so that we have detv'rniined to modify
and rearrange, and stren-'tlien the law
in every possible way. V

I am very sorry that/ our treasurer,
Mr. Aiidrus, is not here. He was to be

here, lie was the chairman of the com-
mittee on the revision of the laws, and
he could give you some informatifUi.
We had recently a convention in Min-
neapolis with reiiresenlatives from Da-
kota, Wisconsin, Iowa and other states,
and wi' had hoped to have Michigan
there also. We have drawn very largely
ou the New York ga'.iie laws, aiitl tlu'
laws or resolutions that we presented to
the meeting seemed to be accejitable to
all, and the result was they appointed a
committee of strong men to see the
members of the begi.-ilalure and urge
the adoption of these laws. There will
be slight modilications to suit the difl'er-
t'lit states, but there is a I'eeling and tlis-
p"sition to have a unif(uniity in the
game law so that a man can't shoot in
Wisconsin ami run ovei in Minnesota
and escafie their wanlens. The hnvs
will be maile unform, and the depreda-
tors will not so easily escaiie. That
very same resolution is l)eing printe<l
and is being sent to the ditl'erent states,
and 1 tliiiik all you gi>ntlemen will be
alile to see what the propost'd action
will be. .Mr. .Vudriis may possibly be
here to-morrow. I hope he will, lie
iiad .some inisiness on hand that <le-
taiiied him; if h<' arrives here with some
of those copies, you will see what we
prop(;se.

Mr. Wiiitaker ; What is the compen-
sation of your wanleu'.'

Mr. Sweeny: He is paid Sl,,")fM» a year.

("hairniau Wiiitaker: How are the
deputies paid ?

Mr. Sweeny: They are paid their
actual expenses, twixlollars a <lay, while
they are in actual service, ami if they
make a c<inviction we give them $2") for
each, conviction, and two dollars a day
in ailditio" for tlieir servictis. That is
for their time, and their statement of
expenditures must be itemized and
swoiU to. We have found that to be a
very good plan.

Chairman Wiiitaker: The subject is
still open for- discussion. We would
like to Ileal' from !lie Sea and Shore
Fisheries Commissioner of Maine, Mr.
tiould.

i'2

^~

Dr. (iuiild: I did not (tomi' iuTc witli
the id'ja of siiyinj,' aiiythiiij,', l)nt rather
as a listt'iuT, but I will way tliis: The
warden sy^tc^in of Maine differs from
all the other states. We liave a ^rood
many wardens there, and the way they
are appointed is this: In the first phice
they are rccoMiniendcd by two-thirds or
rather a majority of the Board of I'^ish
C!ommissioners. i\\n\ their names are
l)res('i:te(I to the ( Jovernor and he makes
the appointment, and the nomination
has to be confirmed by the Council. We
pay them two dollars a day and their
expenses, they bein^ reipiired to render
an account at the close of each (piarter.
The account must be itemized and ap-
proveil l)y the Commissioni'r and sent
by iiim to the Secretary of State to be
a[)proveil ))y him. They are recjuired to
send a daily re])ort to the (,'ommissioner
of tin' work done each day, antl it is
placed on file. At the close of each
(juarter they are recjuired to send in an-
(tther rejtort of the number of cases that
have l)een tried in tin; current (piarter.
The moiety system was in vogue in
Maine several years as«>, und that was
ail the remuneration the warden had,
but we founil that had a bad t^flect. for
the reason that it jrave rise to a crv of
bloo<l money liy the jtoachers, and they
imposetl on the pnl)lie so, it fell into
disrepute, and at the last Leirislature
the moiety system was done away with,
and the salary was put at two dollars a
day and exjn'nses.

The C'hairman : Is that paid tlirouij;h
the State Treasury?

Dr. (lould: Tiiat is paid throu^ih the
State Treasurer, and the fines that ac-
crue from convictions are paid to the
County Treasurer, an<l by the County
Treasurer to the State Treasurer, and
there it is cre(lited to th(^ proper de-
partment under Mhich it occurs. We
hav ■ two commissioners, one of lish and
one of y;anu', and they are kept separate.
The doin;; away with the n\oiety system
on account of the cry of blood money
has, I think, raised the standard of our
work, so much so that durinjr the past
two years we have had a jireaf improve-

ment in the sentiment towards the i)ro-
tection of game and fish. Of course we
have a great many wardens that are en-
tirely useless.

We have about 200 wardens in the
State of Maine, and all of them are
under the control of the commissioners.
The term of office of the warden is three
years, unless removeil by the Governor.
There is also one section that constitutes
every sherifi'or police olHtier or constable
a warchui with full powers in their par-
ticular town or couniy, and they receive
the same fees as the regular wardens.
As a whole we have some very efiicient
wardens, but it is a slack system, T thin k,
in that direction, and we i)ropose to
remedy it at the next legislature.

Mr. Osborn; I would like to ask the
New York Commissioner if their district
wardens are re()uired to <levote their en-
tire time to the duties of their oHice?

Mr. Bowman: Yes, sir, we require
them to devote their entire time to
their duti«'s.

("hairman Whitaker: I am sure the
Conference would like to hear from the
Ohio repr(!sentativ,', Mr. Osborn, in ref-
erence to the desirability of a uniform
system of enforcement of laws.

Mr. r»sborn: Ohio has nothing to
boast of in the way of a warden system
at all. We have a [>ai<l state warden ;
we have county wardens appointed usu-
ally ujxui his recomnu'ndation. The
state warden receives ?1,L'()(/ per annum
and all traveling expenses. The rail-
roads are not as liberal with us as they
are in the State of New York; we have
to pay full fare.

We have two points in our laws that I
think are very desirable. We have the
choice of justices in the county in which
the action is brought. The ofticer mak-
ing the arrest can carry his arresteil
])ersr)n before any magistrate in the
county, and if he is careful, he knows
where he is apt to have justice done, the
best show for his side, and our law gives
to the just'"es final jurisdiction. You
cannot go beyond the justice court ex-
cejit on error. That saves us largely in
the t'xpense of litigation, and the ricii

I

i<;o :

have

violators are una])le to iiiako ns»^ of tlu'ir
money in carryinji tlie rat^es out of the
reach of the funds in the hands of tlie
commission.

I a<<ree with all the rest of yon as
to the answers to these (luestions. We
liave had two systems. We had one
warden appointed by the (iovernor, and
the warden was of no value whatever.
As New York has done so we should,
as to the number of deputy wardens.
1 think our plan is a very lame one
of jiuttinfi a deputy in each county
The commission in our state has trans-
jiressed the law some in consolidatinf;
different counties in one district. When
we found a good warden we put several
countie.'. adjoiniiifr hiim under his care.
We haven't had the matter called in
question, but it lis not in accordance
with the law. The compensation in
New York is very cheap. It is getting
it done much cheaper than we are get-
ting the same work done. I tiiink their
system, as far as it has V>een set forth
here this morning, the best we have in
the states. I would be very glad to
liave Mr. Wilmot enlighten us in regard
to the warden system in the Dominion.

Mr. Wilmot: In regard to the protec-
tion of fish in Canada it is as follows:
The Dominion Government ai)pointed
for each of the |)rovinces an inspector
of fisheries at a liberal salary, whose
duty it is to see that the laws in connec-
tion with the fisheries in that province
is carried out. Tln-y also ai)point nu-
merous overseers or wardens in ilitlcr-
ent localities, all under the supervision
of this inspector. Any violations of the
law are snppos.'d to l)e noticeil by these
overseers or wardens. They are al'owed
a small comjiensation per annum, some
larger, some smaller, in accordance with
the particular locality and in accord-
ance witii th(>ir duties. Over and above
that they are entitled to receive travel-
ing expenses to and from the places
where they are re<iuired to go to see
into thesi' violations 'I'hese fisheries
wardens are appointed during pleasure.
The tisherics inspector also is appointed
during pleasure. At the end of the

year the fisheries warden make a report
to the inspector of fisheries for the prov-
ince. That inspector in tarn sends in
these reports, together with his own, to
the Dominion (Jovornment. That re-
port is generally published. Of course
ibis is a system wiii<'h, to a certain
extent, is acting pretty well, but the
great difficulty lies in the small salaries
that are jtaid to these wardens for their
duties. The consequence has been in
many cases that they ])refer to accord
with the views of the ])oaclier than to
carry out the re<iuirements of the law.
The locations in which the fisheries are
carried on are lia])le to change political-
ly every ♦ww ye irs.

We fina fliat in the extensive areas
in which the overseers have their juris-
diction they cannot do their work
properly, and I think it is in contempla-
tion to divide them in districts or sec-
tions, and appoint one efficient man,
paying him handsomely, he remaining
there at pleasure, giving him jurisdic-
tion of that whole section, and having
ttie authority to call to his aid anybody
to assist iiim in carrying out the law.
Hut it is necessary to have one first-cla.ss
eflicient man at the head of such an ar-
rangement, thai he may ctmsider that
his living, his occuj)ati(tn, and he must
attend to it, and can call u])on others to
assist him at any time. That I th nk
wouhl be a good system, perhaps better
than any other that I have lieanl yet.
Hut that, however, is an idea of mine,
an<l it is framed upon an experience of
some forty or fifty years in connection
with the tisheries The only way to
make a man eflicient is to give him a
handsome salary, and say, there are
your duties and you are responsible for
the work. And if a man feels it is his
living, and th:it if he don't carry out his
duties etiiciently he wiM lose the ofHce.
I think lie would be more careful in
carrying then-, out. The plan followed
by the State of New York is very good,
but it is sultject to so many changes that
I sliould doubt its etli<'acy. Hut your
Iaw3 are so diflerent from ours that })er-
haps you could not carry out the system

/

14

tliat 1 havH bi'cii attemptinji to ilescrihe
to you.

Mr. Bowiiuvu : I would way tliat so far
as tlic State of New York i.s concerned
it has never l)een considered a poltical
office or appointment, and politics have
so far enteri'd very little into the work-
ings of the Commission. The commis-
sioners serve without salary, and it is
not a position that is particularly sought
after by politicians, and consecpiently,
there has been very little politics
thoujiht of by them. Whenever a man
is appointed by us, if we find him etfi-
cient we leave him there as hnifx as lie is
ethcient. I know a protector in my own
district that has been on< for fifteen years.
No on(> has thought of changing him.
As soon as we Hnd one that is inellicient
we remove him and a])point anotiier in
his place. Th«'y arc removed at t\\v.
l)leasure of the Commission. If we find
a man is not looking after his duties we
have no hesitation in removing iiim,
and j)utting another man in his place.
That has l)een our usual custom, an<l I
think will continue to be in the New-
York Commission as long as it renuiins
satisfactory.

fast winter there was an eli'ort made
during the session of the Legishiture to
give the commissioners a salary, but tiie
commissioners opposed it. As long as
we were there we didn't want any salary
for the simple reason that the moment
you attach a salary to it, it becomes a
[)olitical office, and it would change with
every change of administration and it/
would entirely destroy the efficiency oi
the Commission.

One word in relation to the moiety
system. We have the moiety system in
our state, and we think it works admir-
ably. There has been a prejudice
against it, it is true. The business of
the Chief (ianie Protector is not simply
to collect fines, simj)ly to sue a man and
put the money in his pocket, it is more
to enforce the law, and give men t(»
understand they must obey. When a
f man has innocently transgressed the
\ law he is frequently settleil with for the
^simple costs of prosecution that have

already been made. Jiat where we find
a persistent i)oacher, a man who is de-
termined to ))()ach at all hazards, that
man we follow, if we have to follow him
to the I'nited ."^tates Supreme Court.
We do not stop anywhere. We had a
few such cases at tlu' lower end of I^ake
Ontario. Nets were seized, and he re-
jdevined them, and brought action
against .Mr. .Sherman, wlien he was com-
missioner, and that was carried to the
Court of Appeals and was finally decid-
ed in our favor. Those are are the men
we look after more than any others.
Some men may do something that is
technicially a violation only, and those
violations we instriu!t the i)rotectors to
pay no attention t<j. We are looking
toward creating a jiublic opinion in
favor of the law rather than to get fines.
We an; not after fines. Tf we can cnsate
a public opinion that will respect this
law and keep the people from poaching,
that is all we want.

C'hairman Whitaker: We have with
us this morning a member of the Ontario
Game and Fish Commission. 1 believe
something has been done in the line of
enforcement in connection with their
work, though 1 may be mistaken. They
have bet'U somewhat active 1 know,
witiiin the last year, in the passage of
laws, and I think in their eiiforcement,
and 1 will ask Mr. Wells to give us a
little information as to the condition of
things in Ontario with refereiu'e to these

/matters.

Mr. Wells, of Chatham, Out.: (m-uIIc-
men, 1 was calle<l on very suddenly to
attend this meeting, and it is only from
the enforced absence of Mr. Stewart, our
Chief (iame WanU-ii, and Dr. .McCallum,
the Chairman of the lioard of ('ommis-
sioiiers, that I was asked at the last mo-
ment to attend. He said I was only ex-
pected to be a listener, and 1 am not
prepared to say much. Mr. Stewart
says in writing me: "You can tell the
Americans that onr work, although l)ut
a few mouths old, has been successful
beyond our most sanguine expectations,
and that we look forwanl to a better
condition of things in 'he future. Please

15

express our rejirets at not being able to
address the meeting, and ask that tin-
printed proceeilings be sent us."

By an Act of Parliament the Ontario
Government a])pointed a conimii'sion to
inquire into the workings of the game
law, and that commissii)!! went through
the different portions of the ])rovince.
The principal sportsmen and all those
intereste<l were asked to express their
views, and a full report was made ujt,
and on that report laws were^passed at
the last session. I think the laws as
presented were altered somewh t, but
still they were not materially altered.
The Hoard of Fish and (iame Commis-
sioners who were appointeil is compose<l
of five members who serve without pay,
and these five commissioners were to
recommend five wardens in the differ-
ent pans of the province, who were to
be paid, and also to recommend deputy
wardens who were to be without pay,
except lialf of the fines o])tained from
conviction. Although we have been
working liut a few months under the
new order of things, I uuiy say, the sys-
tem seems to b»' working pretty well.
The only trouble is we haven't enough
paid wardens. We have one in western
Ontario whose jurisdiction is between
here and Ifamilton. We have another
down towards Long Point, and anotluu-
in WaK««fl6,'^'aAd another down on the
nortJiern shore near Kingst<in. The
game laws are I think, as near perfect
as we can get them. Wv lind the great-
csst benefit from the non-sale clause.
It fuis a great effect in i)reventing — in

ct, it does away with the business.
Men in our county who killed from one
thousand tt) twelve hundred ipiail each
year, <lid not take their guns down at all
last year. Of course there have beer,
violations of the law, l)ut it has been mi
a snudl way.

I nuvy say that T am more inten'sted
in game than fish. Ontario has not
l)een ii\)U' to do much with the lish laws.
There is a conflict between the Domin-
ion Government and the Governin(>nt of
Ontario as to jurisdiition over the
waters, and I believe a suit Is to be

brought, it may be already instituted, to
establish who has the right, Ontario or
the Dominion Government, over the
waters. After that Ontario will do
something in the way of lish wardens,
but now our wardcius are sui)pose<l to
look after the game oidy.

I live in the west and I don't know
much about deer, or how the system is
working in the nortli, but T know that
in the west, as regards (puiil and ducks,
etc., it seems to ])e working very well.
And I suppose it is only getting in the
thin end of the wedge as to this paid
warden system, as it is very difficult to
get the people to consent to have any
money, appropriated for the protection
of-fi(4v. "TTu'y seem to think it is a lux-
ury, and those who receive' the benefit
of it shouhl j»ay for it, but ^ fancy the
government will aj)point some paiil war-
dens. The system of deputy wanlens
without pay seems to be a failure. I
have not been able to get any of these
ilej)uty wardens to act, although I have
taken a great deal of pains to do so; in
fact, I have had to act myself in several
cases. Tlu»y did not seem to think it
was 'vorth their while for the small
amount of pay they get, and didn't
care to act. As to ducks there is a
restriction that a man shall not kill
more than 800 ducks in a year. There
\ii a little opposition to that, and I might
say there is a good deal of opposition to
the doing away of spring duck shooting.
The principal argument seems to be that
you over on this side have not dene
away with it, and that we sliould not do
all the protecting. We liave hail it in
force a number of years, and they say it
is (juite time the Americans should join
us, as they have as much interest in the
birds as we have. They are shot from
the time they leave us until the time
they come back, and if they are to be
exterminated we ought to have a hand
in tlie extermination. Hut I don't think
that spring shooting will ever be al-
lowed with us again. There is a strong
feeling against opening the spring sea-
son. We are anxiously looking for you
on this side to join us.

ir

f,

in

Mr. Osborii: We arc froin^ to try it
thiH winter.

Mr. Well.n: And 1 hope you will f-nc-
feed. I fojwK) se,wral years u^j.> they
(hdn t allow Jvny, and I was very much
surprised. I di(hi't see how tliey would
permit such a thinj,', and i asked some
friends how they sue<'eeded in getting;
such an arbitrary law passed, antl he
told me, Uh, you don't know what you
can do until you try. So when I re-
turned 1 commenced at once working up
a non-sale law on ipiail. My friends,
although they would like to see such a
law passed, laughed at such an idea.
They said it would he a splendid thing,
but impossible to pass it. However, I
kept at theuj, and I was surprised to see
there wasn't much opi>osition, and they
finally got the law passed as to the non-
sale of (juail. And we have added since
grouse, woodcock, snipe, wilil turkey,
and I think the only thing you can sell
now is duck. We found greatly in-
creased benefit from the law in stopjjing
the slaughter. Ft does away with the
business.

Dr. Sweeny : 1 would like to say, in
tlie way of putting a grain or two of
(lomfort in your way, that in our recent
meeting in Minneapolis, in which the
States of Minnesota, Iowa and Wiscon-
sin joined, there was a provision consid-
ered to do away with spring shooting, and
also a restriction on the imiK)rtation of
game. The idea is to arrange it so that
if a gentleman or two comi-s from an-
other state for hunting they will get the
permission of the game wanlen to send
their game home out of the state, and
peo])le who are shooting for the market
will not have any privileges, so that this
wholesale killing will be stopped. I>ast
night coming down on the train I met
two young men who had just returned
from Marinette, Wisconsin. It is now
against the law to hunt deer with dogs.
lie told me that the warden was a very
nice fellow, that he hail three hounds of
his own, and they had two, and they
joined issues, and had a nice time.
They shi])ped twenty-two deer away
from there of their own killing. We

would like to hear from some of the
gentlemen from Michigan on this point ;
how I he department for the protection
of game works under the Tisli Oominis-
sion.

Mr. I'osI : I think helore pioceeding
further, the resolution that is before the
house, if the discussion is at an end,
shoidd ln' voted on. The Secretary has
it.

Cnainnan Whitakei': If there is no
liirther iliscussion, the Secretary will
reail the resolution.

Secretary .\msden: The resolution is
as follows :

A','.v»/;r(/, That it is tlie sense of this conference
that the necessity exists for an efficient and
uniform enforcement of protective laws by a
paid fish and ifa'iie department, on the general
basis of the New York laws."

Chairman Whitaker: 1 would like to
say a word on the main (luestion as to
the necessity for a uniform enforcement.
It must be ai)parent to every one tluit
if we liave uniform laws with reference
to the i)rot«'ction of tish in Michigan
and in all other states that eveiy i)er.son
would stand' in the diflerent states on
the same footing. If in our territory we
have a clo.se season for tish and they
have none in Ohio, and they have none
in Wisconsin, it is aj)parent where we
have a protection of tish, and the bor-
dering states do not, we are put at a dis-
advantage. 1 speak more |)articularly
of fish, because I am interested alone in
the lish.

At the last session of the Legislature
I had drawn up and presented a bill for
the reformation of the fish and game
warden law of this state. I am sorry
to say it never saw the light of day. I
am convinced, however, it was a good
bill. The bill i)rovided for certain re-
forms, and it was founded on our ex-
perience in the State of Michigan with
the present law. Let me say, in pass-
ing, that the t'ouble with all our states
is, with tht exception of New York,
they liave '•. good law there- that their
ward n laws are worthless and all they
are accomj)lishing is the enactment of
statutes that are unenforced. You are
commencing at the wrong end. Tlie

ti
W
in
in
tl

Sf

17

ne of tlu>
lii.s point ;
protection
I ('onnnis-

loccedinf::
liftor*' the
t an end,
(itary has

t'lc is no
'tary will

ointion is

iconferi-'iice

fficieiit and

laws by a

the general

111 like to

lion an to

Drc'oment.

one tJiat

reference'

Michigan

ly person

states on

ritory we

ind they

ave none

here we

the hor-

at a dis-

"ticularly

alone in

gislature
a bill for
nd game
in sorry

day. I
H a good
rtain re-

our ex-
an with

in pass-
ir states
V York,

it their
ail they
nient of
You are
The

•<

troul)le has l)een that our Chief Game
Warden has drawn his salary, and has
in some instances enforced the law in the
inland waters. I say nothing against
the desire of the warden to enforce,
so far as he could indivi<lually, the
laws, but it is absolutely impossible
for one man in Michigan to enforce the
law over the entire state. The result
has been that in a few spasmodic cases
the law has been enforced, but the great
body of the state at large has been un-
protected. FoT* example, the County of
Wayne has j)aid three wardens §1,200 a
year each Avhile the other counties in
the state have paid nothing. The result
has l)een that we have had little or no
enfor(;ement of the laws.

The bill I spoke of contemplated that
then^ should be a principal lish and
game warden appointed with a salary to
])e paid by the state. That he should
luive the power under certain restric-
tions, and with certain endorsements as
to their titness, from the proper branch
of the government, to appoint not more
than five nor less than three deputy
wardens. It provided that the deputy
wardens should be paid foOO a year and
their exjjcnses. Their salary should be
paid monthl}', and their expenses at
such stated times as thought l)est, their
Vouchers for expenses to be endorsed by
the (Jame Warden in Chief. The power
was given also to change a warden from
his own district into another district to
])erform the duties of his office, if neces-
sary, thereby removing him from the
local influences that surround the Avar-
den. A man doesn't like to comi)lain
of his neighbor. It removed him from
l)olitical and personal prejudice and in-
Hut'nce. Now, I believe that a system
worked out on those lines would be a
success, and would give a reasonable
enfoniement of the law all over the
country. It is practically in line with
the New York code of laws recjuiring
the protection of Hsh and game. 1 hope
this resolution will pass. I believe this
meeting ought to adopt the resolution,
and that we should decide that it is the
sense of this meeting that there should
3

be a uniform system of wardenships in
all the states.

Mr. Osl)orn : We have tried in our
state to bring our Legislature to see the
desirability of a uniform law, but we
find when we elect a man to the Legis-
lature from one of our back counties,
that he comes up to the Cai)itol know-
ing more than the combined wisdom of
New York and all the rest of the states,
and lie wont agree to anything any
other state has, because he knows bett(!r.
I remember of once going befoie our
fish and game committee, and getting
them to report favorably on a clause in
our law which afterwards became apart
of our law, and it was an exact copy as
it was then of the New York .Sunday
law. We had a meml)er from Wood
County who didn't know a wagon from
a pound net, but he knew more about fish
and game than all the New York Legis-
lature. 1 don't know whether it would
strengthen our resolution to put the
word " uniform " in it or not; whether
it would not be better to aim at the
best, and that it is the sense of this
meeting that we endeavor to reach the
best system of wardency, making the
New York law the model. It won't do
our legislators any good to go beforf
them with this resolution or this recom-
mendation. They know a little better
than any other Legislature, and they
think they can improve on anything
that anybody else has done. That is
the condition of our Legislature usually.

Chairman Whitaker: 1 would like to
ask if you have a permanent committee
on game and fish, a standing committee ?

Mr. Osborn : Yes, sir; it is permanent.
Each body appoints its own committees.
It is a standing committee.

Mr. Post: 1 would rather not remove
the word "uniform." I think that is
the best word in the resolution. We
will come as near the best system as we
can. We are not passing laws her' now,
we are only suggesting what our judg-
ment is. I don't suppose my friend,
Mr. Osborn, deprecates the idea of uni-
form laws, if we can reach them. It is
only expressing the sense of the confer-

(,

m-

II

18

ence, and I have no doubt myself, that
uniform laws would be much more bene-
ficial than lawH of diilVrent kinds in a<l-
joininj? states, even if they were not
quite as efficient. I think a uniform law
coverinj^ the whole border of the lakes
would be better, even if it were not as
strinj^ent, than diflerent laws for dili'er-
ent states. I will call or a vote on the
resolution.

Secretary Amsden : Before you vote
on that matter I simply want to make
one or two remarks. I represent an-
other element here— I wish there were
more representing it than myself — but
I believe that element is growing in this
country very fast. From all my read-
ing and correspondence 1 can find that
people outside of the fish and game com-
mi.ssions, outside of the officials in tiiis
country, are beginning to wake up to
the importance of the pnjfection of fish
and game. The principal ones who are
alive to it are the real, honest, true
sportsmen, the followers of dear old
Isaac Walton.

Now, the gentlemen in all the remarks
made this morning speak of the enact-
ment of gooil laws, they spe-ik of the
one object of getting them ])assed by
the different Legislatures, through po-
litical iuHiiences brought to bear upon
the men who know more than they do
about it. Now, gentlemen, one direc-
tion in which our efforts should be made
is in the direction of cultivating a better
sentiment, a more united sentiment
amongst the public generally, looking
toward these laws, and I think that can
be accomplished by increasing and or-
ganizing clubs throughout the ditl'en'ut
states, and that is being done. jNI'-issa-
chusetts has a very live state organiza-
tion, and a large one. They have meet-
ings three or four times during the
year, and they are very enthusiastic,
and they are having an effect. Illinois
has a state organization, and Southern
Michigan has an organization. New
York State has just effected an organi-
zation that is very enthusiastic. We
have our annual meeting next January.
It is working great results. 1 think if

meetings like this would attend more to
the cultivating of j)roper sentiment, you
woidd have less trouble in getting these
laws passed. 1 merely speak of it in
that way to draw out the idea that pre-
vails in my own mind, that to get good
laws and an enforcement of them you
must have the backing of i)ublic senti-
ment. AVithout it you can do nothing.
I believe that this thing is growing, and
is destined to be strong all througli this
country.

I would like to hear from our Cana-
dian friends. There are several here
that have said notliing. You must re-
member that although we have called
this an international conference, we do
not mean that in a diplomatic sense.
It is an American flexibility of a term
rather than an exact expression and we
can learn a great deal from what you
have to say. I hope we shall be able to
take home some new ideas with us, and
we would be very glad to hear some-
thing further on this subject before f
put the resolution.

Mr. Wilino't : I think when the fish-
eries (juestions come U}) we shall enter
into the discussion more fully. I have
a friend here who is president of a very
important fisliing and shooting club on
Lake Erie. I'erhai)s he might be able
to give us some ideas on the matter.
Mr. Harris, of Toronto.

Mr. Harris : I am president of a sport-
ing club, it is true, but in addressing
these gentlemen 1 hardly know where
to begin on a (juestion of this kind.
Tlie clufj is pretty well known through-
out the country as the Long Point
Shooting Cliil) of Lake l<h'ie. It is a club
very similar to tliose of the St. Clair
Flats, with the exception that we own
our property, which is a great resort for
the wild duck, a bird of passage. Now,
as regards that bird I have a word to
say. The duck will soon become extinct
unless spring shooting is stopped in the
United States. AVe no doubt have the
breeding ground for that bird. They
breed in the nf>rth ; tlu^y breed in our
territory. We prevent the Indians
from taking the eggs, and we have very

1

10

nd more to
iiiioiit, yoii
ttiii^' tlit'so
ik of it in
I (liat jirt!-
o got good
them yon
I»lic seiiti-
o iiotliinjr.
)\viiifr, and
rough this

our Ciina-
eral here

must re-
ive called
ce, we do
tic sensor
)f <i term
n and we
vhat you
)e al)le to
h us, and
;ar some-

hefore I

the tish-

al) enter

I have

>f a very

club on '

be able

matter. "

a sport-
Iressing
■ where
H kind,
irougli-
: Point
s a club
t. Clair
ve own
sort for

Now,

ord to

sxtinct

in the

ve the

They
in our
iidiana
e very

strict regulations with reference to their
destruction. Those regulatif)ns have
V)een still more strict lately, l)ut they go
south to you, and you shoot them in the
Hjjring, and we do nothing. I notices
the Redhead is pretty nearly gone, the
CanvaH-l)ack is gone, the Bald-pate is
ge ting scarce, the I51ue-winged Teal are
getting scarce, l)ut we have the Pin-tail
in great numbers. That is a duck that
the Bostonians and the New Yorkers
wont eat, and I believe it has been
found usehtss up to datv to influence
cf)ngressional legislation or anything of
thatsort iu regard to that bird. It is not
a gO' \ bird. So we are having left the
worsi bird. I think unless sometliing
is done in this country to protect these
birds of passage in the various border-
ing states, unless something is done to
prevent their destruction, we will see
the end of the wild duck in five or six
years. Now, that is enough for the
duck. Then we have (puiil, partridge,
snipe, and these other birds that ^Ir.
Wells SI oke about. 1 have no doubt
l)ut that all these biids may be pre-
served by proper regulations, but they
cannot be protected by any amount of
regulations that we nuike, unless the
owner of the soil, unless the far-
mer, unless th(! man who owns the
property in the various states and Can-
ada and his family who live upon that
]»roperty are educated to look upon that
game as their own while it is on their
property. The law should be made
strict enough to enable the owner of the
soil to keep trespassers off. Without
that, I have no faith in any regulation
to prevent the extinction of the game.

Jn Ontario, at the last session of
Parliament, the Provincial Secretary
brought in a bill, which, I think, was
the best all-round bill that has been
prepared since game-protection laws
commenced to be made. That bill en-
abled the owners of the soil to post
their jiroperty and to i)ost unenclose<l
lands. The clause enabling the unen-
closed lands to be i»osted was defeated
on the third reading of the bill, which
rendered the act in that respect practi-

cally useless, because the farmers fence
their liehls to wh'ch the game comes
occasionally, and if there is a consider-
able tract of land adjoining, where there
is no protection, that is the place where
the birds go, and they have been left in
Ontario absolutely at the mercy of any
|)erson, and there is no way of keei)ing
them ofl". The bill was si)oiled thus.

Now the only Other point which I
would like to touch upon in reference
to game-i)reservation is one which takes
some time for an American, or a Cana-
dian either, to understand. You have
jln immense rural area in America, and
in Canatla we have plenty of land. It
was only a few years ago that the whole
country abounded in game. Ii was
everywhere. The (puiil was not here.
We did not know anything a))out the
(puiil in Ontario when the country was
discovered, but as soon as the farmers
cleared up their lands and cultivated
their fields, down came that bird to
make his projjorty a little more cheerful
and eat up his insects, and after the
country had been settled for thirty or
forty years, it was overrun with quail in
all diretttions, as far down as Toronto
and beyond that. All our people did
was to net them and destroy them at
every season of the year. I myself have
shot them when they were whistling
on the nest, when I was a boy, and
didn't think I was doing any harm.
Then the railroads oi)ened, and the
t)uail were exterminated, and now we
are trying to get them )>ack.

The same remarks apply to partridges
and many other binls. But notwith-
standing sparse poi)ulation, compared
with older countries, and with the im-
mense extent of country we have, we
are now trying to get the game back.

If you go to the other side of the At-
lantic, to England, with their immense
population, you will find that the coun-
try is overcrowded with these birds.
You wonder that there is any room to
raise a bird, but they not only produce
birds for the whole of the people of
Great Britain, l)ut they export their
game to Australia and to America, The

//

20

best dinners you get in New York are
English pheasant and Kn^^iisli grouse,
and to-day, in Toronto, if you want a
game flinner, you will find that the
(juail, partridge and pheasants are im-
ported from Great Britain.

Now the only reason for this is that in
England the game laws are enforced,
and they are probably the most simi)le
and the beat that were ever framed by
any country. As a rule, the people
here regard the game laws (jf England
as some private privilege — some arrange-
ment for hunting people or transporting
them to .\ustralia. But all the obnojw-
ous gauK! laws in England were repealed
in \S'.\(i, and the protection of game in
England is rechiced simply to this: If a
man comes ui)on your propei'ty the law
compels him to give his name and ad-
dress. If he does not give it he can be
fined live pounds, or $25. It does not
remain with the magistrate to say how
much damage he lias done, whether it
be fifty cents, or even less; the fine is
five pounds for refusing to give his
name, if he is asked to give his name
and declines to do so. If a man goes
upon your property and yon order iiiin
ofl" and he won't go ofl', you can line
him, and there is an increased fine for
the second offense. You may say that
upon that law all the game in England
is raised. That is the whole thing.
There is a severer law for night poach-
ing, but that is no longer done The
poacher in England is not like our pot-
hunter. T he English poacher is a man
that goes with nets and snares by night,
and in order to avoid the law for carry-
ing arms by night, he carries a bag of
stones. That is the way he defends
himself. He does not go about with a
gun. The man who destroys our prop-
erty is usually an intelligent, smart fel-
low, and according to the custom of his
country, as long as he has a gun in his
hand, he thinks he has a right to go
anywhere, and is very seldom fined.
It is a very nice arrangement as long as
there is game, but if that plan is carried
on for a considerable time, we won't
have a bird in the country. Until you

give the owners of the soil an easy and
prompt remedy, you may as well look
upor. every bird in this country as
doomed.

Chairman Whitaker: The ipiestion
seems to have been pretty well dis-
(!Ussed, and the hour is getting some-
what late, but before the vote is taken,
I want to say to you that the Michigan
Fish Commission extend to you an in-
vitation to visit the hatchery on the
corner of Cham])lain and Joseph Cam-
pau avenue, leaving here at '_' o'clock,
and we would like to have you all go.

The question was then i)ut upon the
resolution and it was adoi>ted.

On motion, the conference took a re-
(!ess until 4 o'clock the same day.

At 2 o'clock the conference visited the
whitetish hatchery and investigated its
workings.

TtiESD.w, Dec. 20, 1892, 4 i-. m.

The Chairnum : The conference will
come to order. Since the conference
took a recess the Chief Fish and Game
Warden of this state has arrived. He
exjiected to be here this morning an<l I
want to hear from him on this question
that we have discussed. For the pur-
pose of bringing the matter up again so
that he may know what it is, I will ask
the Secretary to read the resolution that
was unanimously adopted this morning,
and then we will hear from the Game
Warden.

The Secretary::

Resolved, Tha^^is the sense of ttiis conference
that the necessity exists foran efficient and uni-
form enforcement of protective laws by the fish
and game department on the general basis of
the New York law.

The President: I will say that the
sub-heads discfissed were :

1. Should the Department be under
the Fish Commission.

2. Number of deputy wardens.

3. Compensation of Ciiief Warden and
deputies.

4. Terms of office.

Now, gentlemen, I know that our
Michigan Fish and Game Warden, Mr.
Hampton, has sought to the best ot his

as

it the
inder

1 and

our
Mr.
his

21

ability to enforce the laws of thin state.
Ill' has Ix'cn crippled in a way that I
HU^igcsted this niorninj,', by a depart-
ment that is wrongly organized. I
know yon would all like to hear from
.Mr. Hampton his opinion upon this
matter and upon what should be done
for a proper enforcement of the laws, I
will therefore ask him to address the
conference.

Mr. Hampton: Mr. Chairman and
gentlemen — In the first place I want to
exjiress a regret that I was not present
this morning, in view of the arrange-
ment of the program. The chairman,
however, was mistaken in saying that I
exi)ecte(l to be liere this morning; I
wrote him that it would be impossible
for UK! to be present until the afternoon.
I regret that I was not present — not b(!-
cause 1 think I could have given the
conference any ideas, but becaust; I
might have profited by some of the sug-
gestions made. Inasmuch as the nuit-
ter has not been passed upon, it wonld
be hardly in gooil taste for me to giv(^
any suggestions, so 1 will only say that
I api)rove the spirit of the resolution.
However, I do not think that the New
York system, if I am thoroughly in-
fornKMl upon that, is just wliat it should
be. I believe, and in fact all must who
know anything about the enforcement
of game and fish laws, that men must
l)e paid for their work or they will not
do it. When 1 tell you that I have
something like ' o hundred deputies in
this state, and that notwithstanding
that fact, more than twenty-five per
cent of the convictions that we have
had in this state (and we have had more
than there have been in New York State)
have been made upon my own com-
plaint , that I have prosecuted perhaps
twenty per cent of them you will undi-r-
stand how, as the chairman said, that
we are crippled by having deputies who
are not properly compensated.

1 believe, however, that the tn.e sys-
tem of comj)ensation is a compensation
fixed upon the labor actually performed,
luxviug an officer who is responsible for
tfie entire management, wlio has the

power of discontinuing the pay so
that, in other words, the deputies will
look to the man they have got to
please, the superior oflicer who is
responsible, in order to get their com-
pensation. I find thnt under our pres-
ent system, our deputies in MicluLran
work harder to " work" the supervisors
for comi)ensation, than they do to en-
force the laws. That is where the dilli-
culty lies. Pay them out of the State
Treasury for the work actually jxm"-
formed and the dilMculty will be solved.

As I understand, the wardens in New
York State are divided off into districts,
and each warden receives a certain sal-
ary. I belit!ve that is more expensive
and less etlicient than a system of one
head with deputies working under the
one direction. I do not know thai it
wonld be better for New York, but I do
know that it would be })etter for ISIichi-
gan, knowing Michigan thoroughly, that
that is the system we should have here,
and I vvoiild rather have a few dozen
men ])aid five dollars a day and expenses
and working under my direction, to go
here and there as I <lirect them, than to
have "ny other syst(Mn we ever had in
Micliigan. During the first year this
systen. was in vogue ihe <leput\' war-
dens of the State of Michigan receiv(;d
o\or S10,000. I believe in New York
State they ret^eived over SI."), ()()().

The President: I would like to ask
Mr. Hampton what lu' thinks of the
present system. I understand he has
partially expressed lumself, but I desire
to know what he thinks of the present
system of fish and game wardens in the
State of Michigan, under the control of
the Boards of Supervisors, so far as their
compensation is concerin^d.

Mr. Hampton: 1 think this, that if
you want the law enforced, it is an ab-
sunl system. I know I have prosecuted
myself some of the supervisors. The
supervisors, if they give any compensa-
tion at all, will give it for the men not. to
rvfiirn ihr linr. They do not want the
men to enforce the law. It is all non-
sense to allow the compensation to be
fixed by a board of supervisors ; it is pre-

in

0'>

m

poHtorous .M() fur h.'< the I'lifdrcement of
the hiw is eoncenied. Take the niiitter
i)f the (•(Hiipcnsiitioii here in tlic Comity
of Wiiyiie, ii comity wlii-re tliere ha-:
Iteeii lews noetl of work tliiiii any otber
comity ill tlic ntatc, and tiicy iiavc paid
until the hiwt vear a.s liigli an .•?;{,()()() a
year for the enforcement of a hiw. The
hardest work of the wardt^ns here was
in workiiiji tlic hoard of atiditorH. No, I
think the ('hairnian in riji;lit in the idea
he Hngt;i'Hts by his (luestion, and th»t \k,
the (;onipeii8ation niu.st be relieved en-
tirely of all these local (deinenia which
you iiiust necessarily have when you
trust it to the board of auditors or su-
pervisors, or in any other local hands.
Take it away from local hands and give
a general intluence. That is why a state
warden is better than a local warden.
Let me take a man from one county ami
send him to the other end of the state
and he will do better work than a man
who lives right there in the neighbor-
liood.

The President: I think we all en-
dorse what has been said by the (Janie
Warden, at least we do in Michigan, and
I wanted you should hear what his ex-
perience was in connection with the laws
and their enforcement.

We will now proceed to the second
order of business. No. 2, and I thii\k,
perhaps, in the discussi a of these mat-
ters, it will be well to take them up as
an entirety. I will read them :

1. Should there be a close season for
white lish ?

2. If yes, what shall be the limit?

;5. Shall a restriction be put upon the
size of fish to be taken, or had in posses-
sion, or on the size of mesh?

4. Penalties.

There are many other things which it
would be {)roj)er to discuss at this time,
but the program itself is but a starting
point for disciissson. x'he matter is now
open for consideration and we would be
glad to hear from any member of the
conference. 1 know of one gentleman
present, the better part of whose activity
for the i)ast twenty-five years has lain
in the direction of a better enforcement

of laws, and in the creation of new laws,
and in as rigid an enforcement as could
be given. 1 know that he is thoroughly
familiar with every point that is con-
cerned here, and I would ask the lion.
Samuel Wiimol to respond.

Mr. Wilmot: .Mr. Chairman and Gen-
tlemen— You impose on me a rather
onerous dnty just now, but notwith-
standing it gives me pleasure to rise and
speak. Should there be a close season
for whitelish? 1 think if it should be
put, "there shall be a close season for
whitetish," it would be much better,
and I think the probabilities are that
we woulil pass the resolution almost at
once in favor of it. But this throws the
matter oi)en for discussion now and I
beg to make some remarks upon it.

A close season for whitelish is i)er-
ha[)s more retpiired than for any other
species of lish on this American contin-
ent. I think the whitefish are jire-
emineiitly the best fish that inhabit the
fresh waters of Nortli America, and at
one time they were perhajis the niodt
numeiTUS, but of late years they are be-
coming very scarce; indeed, so much so
that we lind almost evcsry .«tate in the
union wdiose territories border on tlu;
great lakes, is endeavoring in some way
to ))rotect them, and each is trying to
out-do the other in producing the most
artificially iiroduced fry, thus givingevi-
dence that they are consiilered a su-
l)erior fish, and testimony that there is
something that calls for this protection.
Without any ilegree of egotism, 1 may
say that it has been a labor of love of
mine for the last twenty-five years to
aid nature in its production of tish for
the commercial benefit of the country,
and as a luxury for the table. 1 may
say that I originated the artificial proji-
agation of whitelish, and therefore have
taken a ve'y prominent part all the way
through in carrying out that industry,
and at the same time, while 1 have done
that, I have never been so foolish as to
say that artificial culture of fish is going
to supercede the natural. I regret very
much to find m many states of the
union, and among my own people in our

28

if new lawH,
'lit iiH could
tlioroiifihly
liat is coii-
k tlie Hon.

n and Gen-

0 11 ratlior
It notwitli-

to ritio and
lose season

should be

season for
ich hetter,
s are that

almost at
throws the
now and I
ion it.
ish is jier-

any other

:an eontin-

are ])re-

nhahit the

iea, and at

1 the niodt
ley are lie-

0 much so
ite in the
er on the
<onnf way

trying to
the most
,M\ingevi-
red a su-
t there is
rotection.
ni, 1 may
of love of

years to
f Hsh for

country,
'. 1 may
cial prop-
fore have

1 the way
industry,
lavedone
ish as to

is going
^ret very
i of the
lie in our

own country, that tiiey iiave tiie idea
that if they have hntciieries here and
there, tiiere is no necessity for close sea-
sons being carrie<l out. This feeling
l>redr)minates morewitii lishermen than
any others. It is a fallacy to think that
the construction of hati'lieries for the
artidcial breeding of fish is going to sup-
ply the want The lishermen, however,
as I said before, claim that if we build
hatcheries, no close seasons will be re-
(|nire<l. This, then, brings the subject
at once before me.

I am a strohg advocate of close sea-
sons for every (h'scription of fish, not
only for wdiitelish, but for all others,
because 1 think in the first arr aigement
of nature, the balance was iierfect, and
when you disturb that balance, we nec-
essarily will have to make it up by some
means by which man is capable to a cer-
tain exti'ut of bringing about, and that
is by protection and by artificial jnoduc-
tion. A close season for whitefish is
alxive all others, I think, more necessary
than with any other fish. They are an
innocent tish in tlieir nature, they are
not voracious. They are very prolific in
their nature, and it was intended, there-
fore, that they would to a certain ex-
tent, keep up a suilicient supply for the
more voracious tish to live u])on. When
that otlier destroyer of tish, mankind,
comes in, lie destroys tliat balance
altogether, and he has done it.

The consequence is, that whitefish, of
all others, should be protected, and a
close season should be established for
them beyond all ([uestion. 1 propose
tluit every state bordering on the waters
which are also within the jurisdiction
of Canada, sliall now meet the Canadian
authorities in establishing close seasons
for these tish.

In Canada we have established a close
season for the month of November and
we find every evidence, which cannot be
very well controverted, that it is the
proper month. With my view it per-
haps should be a little more than the
month of November, but the month of
November will fairly cover the spawn-
ng season of whitefish throughout every

water in this convinent to which they
are indigenous.

As I said this morning, 'n referring to
the matter, a commission has been ap-
pointed by the Canadian (rovernment
to get information concerning tlie
s|)awning periods of lishes and the de-
scription of the nets use<l to catch them,
with a view of reporting to the govern-
iii'iit that it might perhaps take some
better means to protect the lisli. This
(•(mimission has been at work Uir the
last »'\x weeks, and they have found a',
every i»lac(! wherever they have been
along tlie shores of Lake Krie, Lake
Huron, Georgian Bay, Lake Simcoe and
a portion of ]..ake Ontario, that the fish-
ermen all unanimously say it is judicious
to have a close season, but to a certain
extent disagree as to when it should be.
Some say a shorter period than the
month of November and some say a
shorter period, would be fallacious,
but at the same time they all maintain
there should be a close season for the
pH'servation of fish.

The greatest obstacle we have met
with is this : They say that while we ad-
vocate the propriety of a close season for
white and other lish, it would appe.ir to
be almost useless to carry it out on the
Canadian shores, when our cousins across
the water have no close season. That is
the greatest obstacle we have to encount-
er. All sorts of opposition has l)een
brought against our close season. They
state it has had this effect, that they, as
Canadian citizens, cannot catch fish, but
when they look across the water they
find the Americans are lisliiiig during
that period, still those in ofHcial posi-
tion simply say this that if the United
States authorities take no action to
preserve their fisheries it is no rea-
son why the Canadians should not
take action to preserve theirs, because
in the end it must l)e beneficial to us,
as those who do not preserve the fish
must afterward come to us to get their
supplies of lish.

So it is difficult with us to thoroughly
establish a close season for the fish when
you have no close season on your side of

24

the water. I am inclined to think it' tlie
people here go on, as they have been, for
a series of years to come upon your side
of the international boundary of the
lakes, the waters will become wholly
depleted of fish, but I think if the two
countries will join together the result
will bo very henelicial.

Now, I will state as briefly as possible,
the g'-'jat damage that has resulted from
the want of ])roi)er laws for a i)eriod of
years back, and I will give you a little
information that I have obtained in the
last three or four weeks from ])ractical
lishermen — men who have been engaged
in fishing for the list Hfty years. Tliis
information has been received under
oath from them, and therefore can be
more fully relied upon than if merely
given in the ordinary way. We find
that (in the Georgian Bay, which is very
extensively lished in connection with
Lake H'lron, there are a great number
of Hsher'uen there wl o formerly fished
on Lake Ontario tb'rty or forty years
ago. The white iish at that time were
very abundant there, and we have jnsi-
tive evidence from a number of persois
who say that they Hsbed in Lake Ontario
some tiurty years ago, and it was not
uniisual for them to catch as many as
twenty, thirty and foiS' tlumsand white
fish at one haul of the .^'ine in a night,
and we have this sworn t vident;e of two
others who, it appeared, had joined to-
gether in fishing on one or two occa-
sions; tlu.t one night they caught !H),000
white fish with a seine. Well, it went
on, there was nothing to prevent it at
that time, there was no close season,
and they diii as they pleased. Tiie
(piestion was then put to them, why
did you leave Lake Ontario and come up
here and fish in (ieorgian liay? " Well,
sir, we left because the Iish had gnue;
we juilled up our stakes and left Lake
Ontario and came ui> to the (ieorgian
Hay to fish." Nothing can be plainer
than that.

There was a lake at one time most
abundantly supplied oy nature with
tish. The lishermen had to leave that
lake and go up to the Georgian Bay to

fish, and are there now engaged in fish-
ing, but they say, "If you allow this
same procedure to go on, although you
have a law now, loosely carried out as it
is, the same results will be experienced
in Goorgian Bay as in Lake Ontario.
Nothing can be more clear to my mind
than that the want of judicious laws
some years ago has been the cause for
the loss of the aliundanr supply of Hsli
in Lake Ontario. The fisliing has been
destroyed tliere so that the lake is now
depleted, and the lishermen have to go
to the western lakes. I therefore think
that nothing can be more evident than
that there should be a close season for
white fish.

The second question is, " If yes, what
shall be the limit?" I have expressed
my views on that quction, that I think
it should be the month of Xovend)er,
l)ecause from the evidence we have ob-
tained on Lakes Erie, Huron, (reorgian
Bay and portions of Lake Ontario, it
seems that the mo.st favorable season
for the emission of eggs of the white
fisii is in the month of November, :"rom
about the oth to the 15th or 20th, vary-
ing a little, sometimes to the end of the
month, and in some cases it begins per-
haps as early as the middle of October,
but the month of November throughout
all these waters, I am now convinced,
will cover the spawning season of the
white fish. Do I understand the chair-
man that we are to take the whole of
these four (juestions?

Tlie Chairman : I think it would be
more convenient to do so; they natur-
ally come tog. ther, and I think it would
be better.

ISlr. Wilmot: Then the next is: "Shall
a restriction be put upon th.e si/e of
tish to be taken or had in poss(^ssion,
or on the size of the niesli ?" These
are three imj> > tant subjt'cts. It is ne-
cessary for the preservation of fish in all
waters that there .'-hould be, llrst, a
proper close season for their spawning
time; second, we should decide what
time of year this shall be; and third,
there should bea regulation with regard
to the mesh that mav be used for catcii-

LA

it

ing them, in order to prevent immature
fiyh from being caiig'it.

From tiie experience I have had of
more than a half centnry with regard to
tiiis matter, I t unk that tlie proper
order in wiiieh tlies^e (luesiions wliould
be phiced is<, first, the proper close sea-
son to allow the mother liah to spawn,
and second, a regulation to prevent tiie
immature and small fish being taken,
those not large enough for the market
or large enough to reproduce their spe-
cies, and the last is the artilicial propa-
gation. I have talked upon the proper
close season, which 1 trust will a])pear
necessary to you.

The regulation of the i.\"sh is now an
important (piestion because we lind
from our investigation, not only during
the past si.x weeks, but from what has
come under my observation for the last
twenty years, that i)erliai)s as much <le-
struction is caused ))y the killing of
the immature tish as of the mother fish.
The mother fish may produce something
but if you allow the destruction of the
young before they an; able to rei)roduce,
it is like cutting a string oft" at both ends,
you soon exterminate the species alto-
gether. I should therefore conti'iid that
tlu; regulation of the mesh is just as im-
portant a matter as a I'lose season
almost. The mesh should be regulated
with every descrii)ti(ni of net. But the
difficulty comes up with regard to the
ditterent kinds of net now in use. The
pound net is advocated by a great many
as being the best engine. Others again
contend that the gill n(>t is the best, but
I think ui»on the whole that the })ountl
net, if it is properly regulated, is superior
so far as the (juality of the fish produced
on the market is concerned and idso for
the preservation of young tish, if tlm
mesh is properly arranged. We find all
the way through that the pound net lias
been put in operation without any sort
of regulation as to the size of the mesh,
or as to the pot and leader or anything.
The fishermen have been allowed to do
just as they j>leased in every possibht
way. The consecpienee is that it has
run <lown to such an «'Xtent tliat the pot

or pound in which tlie fish are usually
caught has goiu' down to a mesh of two
inch, or an inch bar. The contKMiuence
is, that everything that gets in them
will be caught, and the destruction has
been going on by wholesale and it be-
comes the duty of all persons who ari>
the eonservers of the fishing interests of
the country to establish a proper mesh
for the [lot ol" the pound net, otherwise
you are doing as much hai'iu nearly as i"
killing the mother fish with her eggs.

Yoi. can reailily umlerstand with an
inch bar or a two-inch mesh, a net must
be very destructive to almost every-
thing and y(ni will understand that
whitetish of six, seven, eight or nine
inches, are taken in abundance. The
strongest evidence of tlieir i)eing unsal-
able, is that they are buried in the sands.
(^ould anything be more wicked? Hut
we have evidence strongly to that eflect
that they get into these nets and the
lishernieii are not going to be bothered
with letting them go again, and in fact
th(i white lish is so delicate in its nature
that the sliy;htest injury causes its tleatli,
and they bring them ashore and they
are some times l)uried in the sands.
You can readily understand what a vast
amount of injury results from that. In
the first place, it is the killing during
the el(-se svasoii and the next is the
killing of the immatuiH- fish. This
should be remedied by all means, and if
the Tnited States authorities would join
with Canada in these matters and regu-
late the pound net with regard to its
mesh, something may result from it.
Mut to allow the matter to go on as it is
now, nothing else but ruin will be the
result. This not only applies to white-
fish, lint to every other kind of lish. A
mesh (jf an inch or two inches will take
almost anything in the way of fish and
when you legislate in favor of whitelish.
you legislate in favor of every other fish
which is valuable as a table fish or for
commercial purposes.

Now. as to artificial iirii|iagatioii. 1
may be said to Ix; one of the fathers ol
it on this continent, but 1 Iiave never
gone HO far or been so foolish at; tu

\

^6

■I I

make a remark that by this means we
are going to overcome nature. I have
always hold that artificial breeding of
fish was merely a supplemental aid to
nature. To say that it is going to outdo
nature, and that we can use artifice
and allow man to destroy as he wishes,
is a fallacy. I have never held that
view. But, let us have the size of the
meshs for your nets regulated on the
American side of our lakes aj.d the
Canadian side, and I think there is a
chance of, to a certain extent, recuper-
ating this wealth which is now nearly
gone. Therefore I think it behooves an
intelligent gathering like this to come
to a conclusion, and prei)aie for their
proper authorities reports showing the
necessity for having a description of net
that may be used which would not de-
stroy the immature fish, and it further
behooves them to use all the influence
they can to obtain a proper close season
and see that the laws in this regard are
properly enforced.

The Chairman : Gentlemen of the con-
ference— The matter is open for your
discussion and we will bo very glad to
hear from any of you.

Mr. Huntington: I would like to have
Mr. Wilmot explain their system and
to what extent they are protecting the
whitefish, and also their laws as to the
size of the mesh.

Mr. Wilmot: The close season of Can-
ada at the presei.t time, which has been
in force for a number of years, is the
month of November. There was a
change a few years ago to the first ten
days of November, and they were set
aside as the close season, but that was a
mistake. It did not cover a sufHcient
period of time, and they have extended
the time now to the month of Novem-
ber, because in doing tiiat it takes in
the whole of the breeding sea.'^on of
while lisli. But the difliculty has been
that in many instances political inllu-
ence has been such that a few individu-
als in a locality will club togetiier and
say, " That close season does not satisfy
us, and we will apply to the gentleman
who represents our constituency to have

it set aside for a time," or something in
that way. We have found the greatest
difliculty runs in that line. Take the
Detroit River, for instance. It is the
international boundary and it is a nar-
row stream, but the white lish have be-
come almost exterminated simply be-
cause it was a resort for the white fish
of Lake Erie to come and cast their eggs
and reproduce their young. We in Can-
ada always had a close season for white
lish, but on the American side they have
not had a close season, and conse<iuent-
ly the (lovcrnment of Canada has been
importuned from time to time to do
away with the close season as far as the
Detroit River is concerned, and those
who have advocated that question
gained tl eir point in a measure, so that
in many cases the close season of the
Detroit River has been set aside for a
year to gratify the 'greed of the fisher-
men on the Canadian side. The conse-
quence has been that by excessive fish-
ing on the part of the people on the
American side, with the aid of the Ca-
nadians on their side, the Detroit River,
once famous for white fish, has become
almost depleted. It is very difficult
now to get enough fish to supply the
hatcheries with eggs from the Detroit
River, while some eighteen years ago,
ann in one afternoon, I have gotten all
the eggs we wanfj^d for our hatcheries.

Mr. Huntington: I will state that
what I desired was that you should give
us the matter as it stands to-day, whai.
protection you are aflbrding the white
fish on the lakes. In other words, what
are the laws aflfecting the white fish to-
day?

Mr. Wilmot: The laws of the present
day in ('unada are that the month of
November is designated as a elosc sea-
son, but unfortuiuitely in Canada, as in
every other country, these laws are
overrun, and they still continue to catch
fish in certain localities, but we are un-
der the iini)ression that if the antliori-
tiei^ on the I'nited States side will join
ns, we can carry L out to much greater
perfection.

Mr. Huntington: Have you anv legu-

27

lation in regard to the mesh of the
net?

Mr. Wihnot: It is the wish of the Do-
minion of Canada to establish laws for
the regulation of the pound net. The
regulation was passed last year, and im-
mediately afterward opposition was
brought to bear by the fisln'rmen, and
it was left in abeyance and i)ut over for
a short time until an investigation
should be made by a committee or by a
deputation which consisted of myself
and my friends here, and we have gone
around the lakes and obtained all the
information we can, and have come to
the conclusion that the pound net of
the present description and mesh, viz.,
an inch mesh, is one of the most de-
structive engines in existence. The
pound net, witli a proper regulation of
mesh, might be perhaps the best engine
for catching lish.

Mr. Huntington: What kind of net
would yon recommend?

Mr. Wilmot: I would recommend the
pound net as being superior to any other
if regulated with a proper description of
mesh.

Mr. Huntington : The question I ask
is what mesh ?

Mr. Wilmot: Nothinu; less than four
or four and a half inches.

The Secretary : Four and a half exten-
sion?

Mr. Wilmot: Four and a half indi ex-
tension, or five inches. We ha.e found
that nearly all the whitefish caught in
Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake
Erie are cauglit in a net witli a mesh of
four and a half to live inches and the
fishermen seem to be satisfied with that,
but when you bring it down to an incii
stpiarc mesh, or two-inch extension mesii
in the pound net, you catch everything,
— imnuiture fish, young, old and every-
thing.

Mr. Huntington: With a four and a
half inch mesh how would you catch
herring?

Mr. Wilmot: You might as well say,
if you got an inch mesh or an inch and
a half Hijuare for catching whitefish or
anv other kind of fish, wluit would vou

do with regard to catching small herring.
It is simply this, if you wish to preserve
other kinds of fish than the whitefish,
then you must establish a net that
little fish vvill be caught in, otherwise
they will be lost as they have in Lake
Ont,ario and as they are going in Lake
Huron. The whitefish on the Canadian
side are protected by the month of No-
vember as a close season, and so far as
is possible the law is carried out, but we
all know perfectly well that much illegal
fishing is carried on in places on the
various lakes, but the close, season of
tlie month of November is kept for
whitefish in Canada, and as you know we
are meeting with the greatest difficulty
in the world to carry out our laws. Our
fishermen say that their neighbors on
the opposite side of the lakes have no
close season for whitefish, and you en-
force a close season with us. Yet, when
you go around and make an investigation
as my two friends and myself have been
doing, for the last six weeks, you will
understand the situation. We find they
all come uj) and say that a close season
is most advisable, but we would like you
to make the Americans have a close sea-
son. This, of course, we cannot do, but
I hope from the remarks that will fol-
low this evening, that the gentlemen
who represent the various states border-
ing on the lakes, with Canada, will see
the propriety of having a close season
for whitefish, and that it is thoroughly
canied out.

The Chairman: As I understand, you
prohil)it all netting that month?

Mr. Wilmot: We prohibit fishing of
all kinds for salmon, trout or whitefish,
and herring. They are all of the same
family and they all spawn about the
same time.

Mr. Keyes : I would like to ask if there
is a law in Canada ])rotrcting the stur-
geon and that kind of hsii ?

Mr. Wilmot: Yes, we have a law
which protects our spring spawning fish,
taking in particularly ba.ss and pike,
and muskalonge and others considered
of commercial value. We have a law in
Canada which takes in the close season

'J-^

Ct'i-t*'*^^

/

28

mi

II

of the montli of November to cover the
salmon trout, the wliitefisli and the her-
rinfr.

The Chairman: ^\ e have with uh a
number of fishermen, and we would be
very glad to hear from tliem on this
subject. .

]\Ir. Keyes, of Oliio: Kegarding this
matter of a close season I have certainly
some convictions. The difficulty along
our part of the line of Lake Erie, which
we nave to encounter, is that the time
that you can take these fish best for the
market is in the month of November,
and in no other month to speak of can
you take any white fish in the head of
J^ake Erie. It is true that the head of
Lake Erie is the natural sp .ning
ground probably for the wlu'e fisii, but
if you do not take them in the fall with
pound nets and other ap;)liances in the
head of Lake Erie, they must then take
them with the gill nets. But in the
head of Lake Erie is wliere they do
catch them, and even now, in the de-
l)leted condition of Lake Erie, they
catch them in certain (juantities in the
spring. Of course white fish have large-
ly d(!creased, but there were more white
fish taken this fall in Lake Erie than
have be.-d taken for a number of j'ears.
Probably this may be due to white fish
propairation, but 1 think it more largely
due to the fact that it has ceased to be
profitable to fish with gill nets, and
consetiuently the only white fish that
are taken to speak of are those on the
spawning grounds that com(> to the
head of Lake Erie in tiie fall and are ta-
ken in the i>ounds, except a few taken
with gill nets at the head of Lake Erie.
The law of the State of Oliio is that no
gill or pound net can be set upon a reef
in the spawning season, and it names
th(^ tinu', but these gill nets that „atch
the white fish on the !"ad of Lake Erie
are always on the nu'fs.

The Chairman : What is that time?

^Ir. Keyes: It is at any time; no gill
net or pound net can be placed upon a
reef in the waters of Ohio at any season
of the year. And there is where all the
gill net white fish are taken, upon the

reefs. With the poun<l net of course it
is the fish that comes to it, it cannot go
after a flsh. It is a stationary net and
the leaders and the heart are all from
six to seven inch mesh in size.

The .Secretary : How is the pot ?

Mr. Keyes : That is usually two inches.

The Secretary : Two inch extension ?

Mr. Keyes: One inch bar; we call it
two inch mesh.

Th(! Chairman: What part of the net
do you say is six or seven inches?

Mr. Keyes : The leader and the heart.
The leader of the net is the part the fish
travel along, say SO or 90 rods in length.
In former times tliey used to fish the
pots, so-called, with meshes as high as
hree and a quarter or three and a half
inches, but jit kJUed so many fish that
way that it was almost impossible to
raise the nets, and it would destroy
them in a couple of seasons. It is diffi-
cult to say as to the size of the mesh.
Of course you might get it big enough so
that even a sturgeon would go through,
but you will alwaj's strike a size which
will gill a certain proportion, and of
course they die and are utterly useless
as a commercial coi imodity. They are,
in my opinion, not (it to eat. When a
fish is drowned by reason of being gilled
in a net there is no question that almost
'Mstartly that fish becomes in a measure
decomposed. I am referring no v\' to the
dead fish ^nly that are in a net, whether
it is a gill net or a pound net, and no
one ever saw a fish that came out of the
water dead that was not bloated to a
certain extent, and of course no one
will say that a bhjated flsh is a good flsh
to eat.

The Secretary: That is a very strong
argument against gill nets.

Mr. Keyes: I am very much opposed
to the gill net system, but I am not say-
ing anything about it. I think that it
is wrong to fish with it under any cir-
cumstances at any time. I do not think
a net should be so set that a fish can
struggle and struggle and struggle until
it dies from exhaustion and exertion.
I do not think that is a proper way to
Kill an animal for food — any more than

!

29

onrse it

11 not go

let anil

all from

inches,
ision?
call it

that the laws of any state or of Canada
should i)ermit the stranj^ling of cattle and
then have them put on the market. If
you had an animal that was strangled in
the crib and hung there until it died,
you might, if you did not have a good
honest conscience say, well, I will sell
this to ray neighbor, I Will not eat it. It
might iiot kill your neighbor, of course,
but it would not be food you would put
on your own table.

Now, the .close season question is a
(juestion of vital interest and importaiice.
There is a close season already in the
State of Ohio, which is from the 1.5th
day of June until the 15th day of Sep-
tember. That of course is not in the
spawning season of the white iish, and
that law was strictly enforced last year
and pretty well enforced the year before.
This fall a good many of the pound net
men who drove their pound stakes,
hung on their leaders, and they never
lifted their nets, mind you. Mr. Osborn
and his brother had those men arrested
and fined and they had to pay their
fine ; they never took the fish out of the
net. But I never heard of a gill net
man being arrested for his work, and
they are always fishing on the reefs.

Now, us to the b'g mesh of which Mr.
Wilmot has spoken. If it was practical it
would be a good idea, but to i)ut a mesh
of say four or four and a half inc^hes, a
large majority of the herring would go
through that, and you could not catcli
them at all, and the greater majority of
the big ones would certainly stick fast
in the net. I agree with him most de-
cidedly, and a committee has already
been appointed in our section embrac-
ing the whole of the head of Lake Erie,
Toledo, Sandusky and Cleveland, and we
will get a law passed in the Legislature
this winter, making it a penalty with a
reasonably heavy fine attached for any
fishermen who shall bring ashore from
their nets any fish under size and unsuit-
able for the market, and also a penalty
upon any man who will sell them. Some
of the fishermen say, we cannot sort
them, but we i)ut the (piestion to them
and (understand we all fish nets as well as

handle fish on shore), " Suppose there
was a penalty of !?25 for the first offense
and S50 for the second offense for l)ring-
ing ashore a lisli less than a certain size
established by law, don't you suppose
you could pick them out?" "Oh, yea
if we had to, but it would take longer
time." Of course, but let them take
longer, that is all.

There is no doubt that the destruction
of the small fish is a grevious offense
against the industry and ought to be
stopped, and it can be stopped. There
is no question but what in the i)Ound
net system the small fish can be thrown
overboard and allowed to go. Of course
some may come in with some catch,
there is no certainty to it. Now, take a
pound net. I speak of the pound net
for I have never fished with a gill net
and I hope I never will. The pound net
is set stationary, with poles, it cannot
be moved. If the fish go to it and follow
its leaders it takes them. A majority of
the fish could go right through the leader.
There is not a herring that will ever gill
in a leader or heart. In the fall we
have found a few that have gilled. Fish
spawn all over the head of Lake Erie.
I do not believe there is any place they
do not spawn when they get in the shal-
low water.

The headwaters of Lake Erie, com-
mencing on a line about Vermillion,
directly opposite the dummy light on
Pelee Island Point, is what gill net men
call the reef. On this ridge, of late
years, they have set dieir gill nets.
Now then tiie (juestion arises, and it is
a fair question for gill net men and
pound net men and every other man
connected with fisheries, whether the
reduction in the catch of fish is so much
owing to the amount of fish caught by
the nets of all tlescriptions as it is owing
to the amount of fish that are turned
back from the natural spawning grounds
and not allowed to deposit their eggs
where nature requires it, and thus tlieir
spawn becomes less. Nature comj)els
them to go to a certain place to lay tlieir
eggs, and if they cannot reach their
spawning grounds, and if they are pre-

30

vented by nets Htrniif; along there
tlir<)U},'h Iviiko Erie and finally deposit
tlieir Hi)awn wherever they happen to
be, that si>a\vn fails to reproduce —
whether that accounts for the reduction
in the fish or whether the (luantity of
your catch accounts for itiHaijuestion. I
think and I believe it is the general opin-
ion of nearly every practical fisherman
who sees it, that it is much the greater
reason that the fish are not productive
by reason of the long string of gill nets
which prevents them from getting to
the natural spawning beds of Lake Erie.
You take it just a little above Cleve-
land and you will find strings of pound
nets reaching out into the lake, eight,
nine and ten miles from the shore,
string after string until you get well up
, towards iSanduskv Bav, and then bevond
those iH)und nets are strings of gill nets
reaching clear over into the Canada
waters and whether there is a close sea-
son in Canada or not, they run their gill
nets <'lear over across to Pelee Island,
and they do not make any bones about
it. There is a wall of net stretching across
Lake Erie, and I will ask how those fish
can reach their spawning ground? I be-
lieve that if a law could be passed com-
pelling fishermen to put overboard the
small fish which are unsuitable for food
and unfit for the market, that it would
be a far greater benefit to the fishing in-
dustry of the gieat lakes than to have
all the close seasons you could adopt.
Now, there is no use of making a doi^e
season to shut out this article qf food.
You take the fishing of Ohio, and
you take the month of November out of
the fishing month, and you might just
as well hang uj) your nets entirely on
the American side, that is, on the head
waters The month of November is
the only time that it is possil>le to catch
the fish, that is to fish for commerce,
and I believe this meeting is more in
the interest of commerce than it is of
sj)ort, bec^a'ise if it was a mere matter
of catching fish with hook and line, it
would not matter much to us one way
or the other. It is a ijuestion of furnish-
ing good food to the poorer class of

people of this country as well as the
rich.

You take the '.lerring, whi<'li years ago
was not considered of any value simply
because the other fish were so cheap.
When the whitefish became so high
priced, the herring then went on the
market, and it is greatly demanded in
the big cities of the east. New York,
Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washing-
ton consume at least two-thirds of all
the herring that are taken in Lake Erie
—that is of the fresh lierring taken.
They go onto the market against the
salt water fish, strange as it may seem,
andibecause it is so cheap and supplies a
cliea]) food and a good food, they are de-
manded very much. There are a great
many hundreds of thousands of dollars
invested in fishing boats in Lake Erie
and especially in the head waters, and
when I refer to the head waters I mean
from Cleveland up. These men inter-
ested have their plants, they have got
their outfits, their boats and their docks
and their nets and their vessels, and
they see before them, unless something
is done, a very near future when fishing
will utterly cease in Lake Erie as it has
ceased in nearly all of the great lakes, and
the dealers and fishermen are ready to
go hand in hand with unybody or with
any set of men who will propose a
scheme that will be practicable and give
some hopes of reasonable success. But
I very much doubt whether a law estab-
lishing a close season of November could
be passed in the State of Ohio, and if it
would be passed it would simply take
that product entirely out of the market,
because that is the month in which th<»y
are caught. They would simply go back
to the lower end of the lake and be
taken with other appliances in the
spring.

Mr. Osborn : With a two-inch mesh
could fishermen get clear of the small
fish, throw them back?

Mr. Keyes: The (juestion of time does
not enter into the consideration of this
question at all. It will take a little
longer of course to sort them out. All
they have got to do is to handle these

fish

•11 as the

years ago
le simply
io clieap.
so high
t on the
anded in
w York,
iV'ashing-
Is of all
^ake Erie
ig taken,
ainst the
ay seem,
iipplies a
y are de-
e a great
•f dollars
ake Erie
ters, and

i I mean
n inter-

liave got
■ir dockfs

^els, and

mething

II fishing

as it has

ikes, and

ready to
or with

opose a

iind give

ss. But

iv estab-

er could

md if it

ily take

market,

ch they

go oack

and be

ill the

mesh
} small

le does
of this
i little
t. All
these

81

fish with their hands and th row the small
ones overboard.

The Chairman : I would like to know
what is the object of taking the young
fish in the net at all if you are going to
put them overboard?

Mr. Keyes: You cannot lielp your-
self, the fish are all caught together and
you have to pick them out just as they
come, you cannot sift them out through
a sieve.

The Chairman: Why could you not
regulate it as suggested here by the
mesh of the pot?

Mr. Keyes: The trouble is, you would
gill so many fisli. You would gill more
fish that are of a suitable size for the
market than you would save of the
small fish that would run tlirough. You
will often catch minnows in a pound
net, but what is to hinder minnows
running through ? Many a minnow is
caught, the fish get scared and the first
thing they know they are in there with
a pile of fish and the minnows them-
selves won't get through. No matter
what the size of the mesh is, any prac-
tical fisherman will tell you at once that
you would still get many of the small
ones, because the fish do not go through.
If they did, those fish need not follow
these leaders. If it was the nature of
the fish to run through every hole they
could find, they would get through these
leaders at all times.

The Chairman: I was going to call
your attention to that because we know,
as a matter of fact, the size of the mesh
of the leader and heart cuts no figure
whatever.

Mr. Keyes: It is just the same, that
is, the fish is a very timid animal, and
it does not take much to frighten him.
At the same time he is a little curious,
and so he follows this shadow, while he
coiild just as well pass through if he
wanted to, if he had any ilesire to go
that way. He need not come around,
but he prefers to go on. It is the same
way in the pound, they swim round and
round.

The Secretary: Do you think if the

pot has a small mesh the fish would be
hurt less?

Mr. Keyes: They do not hurt them at
all. Take it when there is a heavy
storm which lasts for two or three days,
and you will find very few of the fish
hurt.

Mr. Post: I would like to inquire
what the season of herring fishing on
Lake Erie is?

Mr. Keyes: They generally commence
to catch them early and catch them all
the time. You catch all summer. You
may commence to fish in the latter part
of September, ,but they do not usually
get a good run of lierring to amount to
anything until the 20th of October.

Mr. Post: It is pretty nearly over in
the month of November?

Mr. Keyes : We get the heaviest fish-
ing Tisually in the r jnth of November,
and usually the best week's fishing
along about Thanksgiving Day.

The Secretary: At the same time you
get these herring do you get wliito fish
in the pound?

Mr. Keyes : We get white fish all the
time, but in limited (juantities. Of
course the great bulk of the white fish
taken in the head of Lake Erie are taken
in the gill nets upon the reefs.

Mr. Post: I thought the herring
spawning preceded that of the white
fish?

l\Ir. Keyes : It does, l)ut the white fish
come on about the same time, and the
spawning season is the same. About
the 1st of Noveml)er we generally look
for spawn in the boats when the boats
come ashore.

The Secretary : Some years ago there
were not so many herring in Lake Krie
as now.

Mr. Keyes: The herring fishery has
never been even. There pr<)])ably never
was a shorter season than this season
for tlie last fifteen years. There prob-
ably wen- more herring taken from the
waters of Lake Erie four years ago than
had ever been taken before. That sea-
son the Sandusky freezers had 2S tons
of herring frozen, and there was some-
thing like 30,000 or 40,000 barrels of salt

I !'

d!2

J

herring. It was so all along the lakes.
Before tliat there had heeii .short sea-
sons, hut not auytliing like this season.

The Secretary: Take an ecjiial numher
of pounds of herring and white fish, and
what is the difference in the profit to
tlie dealers.

Mr. Keyes: Of course our husiness is
ail wholesale. The white fish are ahout
eight cents a pound. The average price
for fresh herring is ahout two cents. I
am speaking of this Avinter. Of course
the herring are sold in the markets of
Philadelphia, when they are plenty, at
ahout $3.00 a harrel.

The Secretary: If you were going to
have one or the other, which would you
prefer for your husiness?

Mr. Keyes: The herring. In the first
place, if you had as many white fish as
iierring the markets oi" the country
would not pay any more than three or
four cents a pound, and I douht even if
they would take them then.

The Secretary: If white fish were plen-
ty they would be that price, wouldn't
they ?

]\Ir. Keyes: Certainly. The herring is
sold largely as a smoked commodity. It
is a regular business, and it is about the
only fisli treated in that way which is a
success, except the sturgeon. That is
one reason why it is becoming so popu-
lar in the last few years. It is only a
few years ago that we had no freezers.

I want to get back to the question of a
close season. As between Canada and
the United States, it is a question of con-
siderable depth. The white fish does not
frequent Canadian waters ; it is not our
experience as fishermen at all that it fre-
quents the waters of Canada, especially
this end of Lake Erie, as they do the
other side. The spawning beds seem to
be around there. If you shut off the
month of November, and that is the
spawning month, no doubt ; you would
destroy the whole commercial industry
that has been built up on this side of
the lake, and of course you understand
that would be (juite a task to perform.
But if something can be arrive<l at that
wfU not destroy this fishing industry.

but will tend to build it up and preserve
the fishing, I do not think there is a
fisherman that is not willing to do all in
his power to help it along.

The Chairman: During how many
months of the year is fishing prosecuted
in Lake Erie ?

Mr. Keyes: The whole year round.
In Pennsylvania there is no law, and in
Oliio waters, so far as it is possible for
the commissioners to enforce the law, I
think they are enforcing it. There is no
fishing between the 15th of June and the
15th of September.

The Secretary : Why were those dates
fixed; what is accomplished by it?

Mr. Keyes: Largely fixed from the
fact that the fish taken at that time is
not really a good article of food. It was
not for the protection of the fish partic-
ulary, except that it does give them
three or four months' rest.

The Chairman : Do you think it would
be an unjust thing to give tlie fish a rest,
not only for Lake Erie but for all the
lakes, for one month in the year?

Mr. Keyes: It would depend on what
month you select.

The Chairman: The spawning month.

Mr. Keyes: Th<^n you select the only
month in the year in which that fish can
be taken to any advantage, and there
would no good grow out of the law be-
ca^ise you would not get the fish in that
neighborhood.

The Chairman: What are they doing
the other 11 months in the year in Lake
Erie?

Mr. Keyes : When they can get out in
the winter with their gill nets they fish
all winter. They do not catch to any
great extent, but they are fishing now
in Lake Erie just as well as they were
last fall. They fish there all the time
in deep water until they cannot get
their tugs out because of the ice, and
whether a certain close season would be
a good thing I do not know. I do not
know l)ut a close season in the winter
would certainly be a benefit to the fish
as well as in the summer, but if you
would make a close season at a time
when they can be best caught for the

38

1 preserve

lere is a

> <lo all in

market, which is in the month (if No-
vember—

The Chairman: Isn't that because
they are running on to the Hpawning
beds and you know those are well de-
lined grounds and yoa can catcli tlieni
easier at that time?

Mr. Keyes: Tlie whole head of tiie
lake, from Pelee Island and the Dummy
Light to Vermillion, is one continual
spawning ground. I claim that there is
not one fish in five hundred that comes
up through those waters that ever gets
into the pound net; I doubt it very
much. If even half of them are caught
and they g.ve time for the other half to
spawn, you will have all the spawn you
want. It is a question in my mind
whether you are going to establish a rule
that will allow those fish to get on the
spawning ground, because I think it is
going to be difficult to get a law through
the Legislature of Ohio or Michigan
which will say you cannot fish in these
waters at a time and the only timi^ when
they can be taken, as a commodity, in
November.

The Secretary : Isn't it generally un-
derstood that when fish are at their sea-
son of reproduction they are not fit for
food ?

Mr. Keyes : They are taken and con-
sidered the very best. You take the
case of shad. A roe shad brings just
twice the price of a buck shad.

The Chairman: Is that on account of
the roe?

Mr. Keyes : They want to get the eggs,
I suppose.

The Chairman: That is what 1 sup-
posed.

Mr. Keyes: The herring spawns alto-
gether in the fall. In the spring they
are a much poorer fish than in the fall.
The herring taken along in June and July
are a much better fish, on the Canada
side ; that is the only time you can
catch them, at that time of year they
run there

Mr. VVilmot: For i)rotection they
come there. (Laughter.)

Mr. Keyes : They catch them in large
quantities at that time.

The Secretary: They do not even get
the protection. You follow them over
and catch them.

Mr. Keyes: As far as Canadian waters
are concerned, these fish are taken in
large (pumtities in .Inly and August.

Dr. Parker: Returning to the size of
tiie mesh. You said 1 think that the
llsli seldom gill in the leaders, or heart.
You find but very little trouble in that.

Mr. Keyes : Yes.

Dr. Parker: When do they gill in the
pound?

Mr. Keyes: They do not gill in the
pound because tlie mesh is so snuiU they
cannot gill. The herring is the worst of
all fish to gill, and in the season they
will just line a jiound right around, it
will be jierfectly white ail around, in
nearly every mesh there will be a her-
ring.

Dr. Parker : They stay there until you
come to haul them?

Mr. Keyes: Oh, yes, you find them
there before, but it is worse when they
crowd them. As you crowd them they
'vMi to jret out.

J)r. Parker: The greatest amount of
gilling is done at the time of the haul?

Mr. Keyes : Well, before you get the
nets pulled out.

Dr. Parker: The greatest trouble is .o
get them out of there and save them for
the market.

Mr. Keyes : The greatest trouble is
they gill all the time, from the time the
fishing is commenced.

Mr. ( )sborn : We find there were many
tons of small fish taken out of Sandusky
Bay and sold to the phosphate factories
at 65 cents for 400 pounds.

Mr. Keyes : There is nobody recog-
nizes that fact any more than the deal-
ers in Sandusky. They are all fisher-
men and they are only too ready to com-
ply with a law that would prevent that,
if it can be jiassed.

Mr. Osborn : What would be the pen-
alty?

Mr. Keyes: I would put it so big that
the second offense would be seldom
heard of. I would not make the fine
one cent less than $25 a fish. All of our

84

'•ii

dealers are unanimoUHly in favor of j;et-
ting a law of that kind tiirough the
l.e),MHlatnre. That (certainly would be a
very Htronfi Htep in the rij^ht direction,
but that we can succeed in getting a
(tlose season for tlie month of November 1
very much doubt, or that you would even
get a respectful hearing before the Fish
and Game Commission of the states, be-
cause of the men interested.

K. W. Gould, Commissioner Sea and
Shore Fisheries of Maine: Mr. Chair-
man and Gentlemen of the Conference:
In the experience of the Maine Com-
mission of Hea and Shore Fisheries
there can only be one correct answer
given to tliis question, if the end in
view is preservation and restoration
of our fish. A broader view may with
propriety be taken of the subject, and
include all edible fish. In Maine waters
tile white fish is not a prominent one;
but the salmon most abound. Nature
has insisted upon a uniformity of laws
governing all fish life, and has instituted
a most wonderful harmony in appor-
tioning to each kind of fish its peculiar
characteristics, habits, localities, time
for rei)roducing its kind, etc., so that
when nature establishes a season dur-
ing which one species ought to be fully
protected, another of. somewhat differ-
ent habits is in its prime condition, thus
wisely ordaining such a condition of
affairs as will keep up throughout the
entire year the fish food supply of the
people. To assist nature in keeping up
the supply the intelligence of man
comes in as 1 auxiliary, utilizing the
forces and existing conditions of nature
to artificially jiropagate certain fish to
replenish the waters, and this, to a cer-
tain extent, has succeeded very nicely,
but man has never been able to approxi-
mate nature in this work, and of neces-
sity, while acting as assistant, must de-
vise some different plan to further in-
crease the young fish.

The fish and game of the American
continent at present under the control
of each individual state, have been held
by the scate governments as a sacred
trust for tile people from time imme-

morial; and now the thinking portion
of the people are slowly awakening to
the fact that the danger line of extinc;-
tion has l)een passed in some instances,
and being rapidly approached in nearly
all others. Thciy view with great appre-
hension the slaughter of the finny tribes
going on, and the consequent alarming
diminution in their numbers, while with
the convening of our different legisla-
tures, petitions come pouring in from
all sections asking special laws to be en-
acted for the protection from the poacher
or pot fisherman certain local or private
lands ; also praying for a more rigid en-
forcement of the existing laws rei^ulat-
ing the taking of fish and game.

The question might with propriety be
asked to " ivliut cuunr is a»siy)ied thin yrcdt
depeh'tioii of our Jixheriiiif"

To those who have made a study of
fish life and its underlying conditions
the answer is a very simple and exceed-
ingly i)lain one. Simply exhaustive fish-
ing and at improper seasons, liut here
iu answering the <iuestion enters a dis-
turbing element, the intensely interested
wealthy parties who, through their en-
gines of destruction, have enriched them-
seives at the expense of the people, and
who now are aware that the laity
are becoming educated up to what is
theirs by right, and that at no far dis-
tant day their revenue from this source
will be curtailed. These men appear in
conjunction with the legislatures, and
sending their most suasive members,
answer this question, without excep-
tion i)refacing their remarks by first
giving a glowing account of the immense
industry they represent, the large num-
ber of men they employ, and the large
amount of general good that is the result
of* their operations. Then is paraded
their intimate knowledge of fish life and
the natural conditions which tend to the
perpetuation of the species, and in the
majority of cases, if the time of the com-
mittee or meeting where this question
comes up is limited, they enter exhaust"
ively into the general subject, and while
arranging themselves to all appearance
on the side of intelligent restriction.

L.' I

pa

j)orti(jii

'iiinp to

cxtinc-

stanct's,

Hourly

t ai)pre-

»y tribes
arming

lile witli
Ic'gi.slu-

in from

o lie en-
loacJier
private
;rid »^n-

re' nlat-

36

njjpoHe Htrtuiuoufily any n-strictive ineas-
iin-s tliat would be ('fTcctivc, contiiiinK
tliemselves to Kome minor restriction,
sncii an tli(> liberation of tisli below a
;;;iven wcif^'bt or size, or mesb of net, by
tills means liopiiig to throw the l)nr(len
of ex])ense on the fishermen and the
state to see thes(! measures enforced and
to eventually create a prejudice against
restriction by reason of these wardships.
Should this fail them, then they, as a
last resort, earnestly advocate investiga-
tion at the expense of the state and ex-
periments as to the better means of i)ro-
tection.

These, gentlemen, without attempting
to weary you, are a few of the subter-
fuges employed by these interests.

The more intelligent fishermen prompt-
ly range themselves on the side of pro-
tection and preservation, foreseeing that
without some means being em])loyed to
prevent this wanton destruction the
liusiness will not survive itself.

From these facts among many others,
and from a practical and substantial
benefit arising from it, the Conmiission
of Sea and Shore Fisheries of Maine em-
phatically advocates protection for all
edible fish during their season for spawn-
ing, and in the absence of an intimate
knowledg(^ of the requirements, to pro-
tect any tish in a given instance, would
recommend such restrictive legislation
on that subject as will leave no doubt as
to its efficacy until such investigation
can be made as will enable intelligent
suggestions to be made to the legisla-
tures by the commissioners.

The Chairman: Gentlemen, it is get-
tii.g somewhat late, and I fancy there is
v(>ry much more to be said upon this
matter. It does seem to me that con-
cessions must be made by the fishermen
as well as by the people. Because of
the physical characteristics of a given
water the spawning beds may lie in one
end of the water or in the other, and it
does seem to me as though some sort of
an opportunity ought to be given the
tish to spawn when they run on these
spawning beds. I deem it unfortunate

because of the location of the lishermeu,
as they would be injured more in l-ake
Krie on the western reefs than in the
cast end of the lake, because there are
no spawning beds there. [f we are
going to do anything except extermin-
ate the fish entirely, we must come to
some .sort of an understandihg, not i)re-
judicing the rights of one party nor of
the other, and I would suggest the pif)-
priety of not attempting by the sugges-
tion to in any way shut off" debate, be-
cause we want to ccmsider this subject
fairly and cannidly. I would suggest
the appointment of a committee to con-
fer up(m this matter and to report at to-
morrow's meeting.

Mr. Wilmot: I hardly think the end
will be obtained so thoroughly in that
way as by an open discussion. The rea-
son wliy I say tliat is this, that some of
us may not be able to remain during
the continuance of your session, and as
this is of vital importanee to Canada
and the T'nited States, 1 think an open
discussion of the matter will be much
l)etter than to leave it to a committee
to bring in a certain report. The ol»ject
of ibis meeting, I understand, is to
take up the matter as a whole. If the
views are entertained which our friend,
Mr. Keyes, has expressed, it will be use-
less for us to remain here, of course, but
as J understand the matter, the meeting
is for the purpose of preserving and hus-
banding the fisheries of the country.
I think an open discussion of the mat-
ter will be well, and much better than
leaving it to a committee to make a re-
port upon. This meeting has been
called for the purpose of discussing the
merits of the preservation of the fisher-
ies of the lakes in this country and in
Canjida. We have a close season on our
siile of the water. The gentleman who
has just sat <lown (Mr. Keyes) says that
if you have a close season for the month
of November you might just as well
close up his business. In Lake Winni-
peg, where they liave the best wiiite
fishing in the world, they never fish be-
yond the ir)th of October; they never
desire to flsh. They say their best fish-

*r

1

iiig is before tliat, whereiiH in Luke Erie,
this geiitleinaii tellw hh, tliey could not
MhIi at all if they did not HhIi in the
month of Novemhcr. I take that as an
incorrect Htatenient. I think it would
he niuoh better to have an o|)cn diH<'Us-
nion.

Mr. llani|)to>'.. I think the gentleman
is entirely right. But while we all con-
cede the necewHity of an open discussion,
ve must recognize this fact, that if we
have nf)thing but discus.sion, we will
not accomplish anything. As I under-
stand, the object of the meeting is to
take some steps that will result in some-
thing beneficial. The idea of the re])re-
sentative from tne Dominion (Mr. Wil-
niot) is to preserve the lish not only for
the people, but for the fishermen of the
country. I believe we are all united in
regard to this, and tlie only difiiculty is
a disagreement as to the manner of
doing it.

Mr. Keyes: J^et me say this one word,
that Mr. Wihnot entirely misunder-
stands me if he thinks for a moment that
1 would stand on this floor and advocate
the destruction of the lish of Lake Erie
•>r any otiier, except in the catching of
the tisli, which has always been consid-
ered a legitinate i)usiness, and the
catching of them of course destroys
them.

The Chairman: lam inclined to think
that we ought to have plenty of time
for the discussion of this subject, and I
think the best way is to have an even-
ing session.

Mr. Post: I anr myself very much in
favor of a committee, and I think we are
entitled to the appointment of a com-
mittee after further discussion. 1 would
like to inquire if it is the serse of the
Conference that we have an evening
session? I will make that motion, that
we do have an evening session, com-
mencing at eight o'clock.

The motion was carried and the con-
ference took a recess until 8 p. m.

Evening Session,

Dec. 20, 1892, 8 p. m.
The Chairman : The conference will

jdea-se come to order. When the con-
ference took its recess it ha<l under con-
sideration toj)ic No. 2, and that topic is
still open for iliscussion.

Dr. Sweeny: Before the discussion
o|)('ns, while 1 have not the slightest
i(K'a of restricting anyl)ody, I woulil lik<'
every gentleman to have the courage of
his convictions and say just what lie
thinks on this subject. I would ask
that the conference concur in this mo-
tion and that the speeches shall n<tt ex-
ceed ten minutes in length, so that
every one will have a chance to say
something, and I will make the motion
that sjjeeches be limited to ten minutes.

This motion was supported and car-
ried.

Mr. Osborn: What would be the ob-
jection to putting both of these topics
on for discussion, two and three are
largely alike as to a good many parts,
and when the committee of which we
talked is ai»pointe<l, it could cover the
two topics without any more work than
covering one.

The Chairman: We have the whole
of to-morrow before us for the consider-
ation of these other topics, and we do
not want to be idle all the <lay. If there
is any gentleman here wlu) desires tt)
express himself on this third topic by
reason of being called away. I think that
the conference will be very glad to listen
to him. 1 think the consideration of
topic No. 15 had better be postponed
until to-morrow unless some sucdi emer-
gency as that arises. I understand, Mr.
Osborn, that you expected to go away
to-morrow, but you will be here in the
morning anyway. The chair is now
rea<ly to listen to further discussion.
Dr. Sweeny, the conference has not had
the pleasure of hearing from j'ouon this
subject and I presume they would be
delighted to hear from you.

Dr. Sweeny: Mr. Chairman — I have
listened to our friend Mr. Keyes on this
subject, to his very interesting and in-
genious argument, but I must say that
he has not conviniMKl me, and T am
afraid that the more I think on it the

less I am likely to be convinced. /■

I*

'a?

87

In tin- coii-

|iii(Um' con-

»t topic i.«

^lisciiHKion

HliKlltl'Ht

•oiilil like
•ourii^o of
wliat Im'
ould iiKk
tJ)iH nio-
iiot cx-
|i, .so tliat
Ifc to say
K' motion
niiiiiito.s.
iind car-

(' tlu! ob-
^se to|)icM
1 1 live a IV
iiy partH,
wliicii v\u
I'ovcr tlic
kork than

lie wlioli'
i'OiifiidiM-
itl wc do
If thuiv
IcsiiVH to

topic l)y
liink that
I to listen
ration of
OHtponed
i'h enier-
an(l, Mr.
go away
■e in tlie

is now
icussion.
not had
ion this
onld he

-I have
on tJiis
and ill-
ay that
\ I Hni
I it the
iced. Ik.

know from the experience of the protec-
tinii given by ttie ('anaiiian autlutrities
to white tisii on l-ake .Sni)erior tliat it is
most lienelicvnt. Tiie difl'erence l)e-
tween our tisliiiig on th(i nortii siiore of
bake Superior, in our waters and theirs,
is most nuirke(b When you ji;et witiiin
:'>■'> or :'■() miles of the ('anadian Hne tlie
lishiii^,' is fairly >.'ood, and when you
cross it it is excellent (M)inpared to what
it isonourside. The greater bulk of the
white tisli are obtained from I'ort Arthur
now, and the fisiierinen of bake Super-
ior, on the north shore, are so well satis-
lied that it is the riglit thing to do that
they have expressetl to me tlieir willing-
ness, without any solicitation on our
part, that we should join with the Can-
adians in having the same close season.
They say if there is such a law so tliat
this man cannot lish and that man can-
not lis'ii, we are willing to abiile by it,
and we know it is the best thing that
can be done. The difference in th(! fish-
ing now from what it was a few years
ago, say -0 or '25 years ago, is very
marked. AVe.used to get white fish all
the way uj* to Ouluth; all along the
-Minnesota shore and the Wisconsin
shore, it was all good white fishing, but
now there are scarcely any white fish
taken until you get towards Bayfield.
Very few are taken on the Wisconsin
shore, none along Minnesota point; and
this season, for the lirst time in fifteen
years, or a little less than that, the fish-
ermen are beginning to make pretty
good catches along the north shore of
small white fish, which they attribute to
the planting of fish at the head of the
lakt!. It is their opinion that a close
season for white fish, the same as the
Canadians have, from November 1st to
December Isi, will be the salvation of
the fishing. If they are allowe<l to go on
as they have been the fishing will be
exterminated. They are catching some
lish of our plant a little larger than her-
ring and about the size of herring, anil
from that to tish lo and H) inches long,
and they are so well satisfied that the
jirotection of a close season is the salva-
tifin of the fishing that thev assured me

that •'■ such a law is passed they would
be willing and glad to abide by it. I
feel myself that that is th(> right thing to
do, and I feel that our i>osition that we
should protect the lish in the spawning
season is right. Notwithstanding the
arguments that I have heard, not only
to-day but for years past, I am sure that
the right ])osition is to maintain a close
season.

In regard to our lisheries in bake
Superior, 1 think our legislature will
pass such a law, out whether that is tlu-
wiser thing to do further south, should
be well considered, I thin'., thoroughly
conside ed l>>fore a concession is made
to abandoii any attempt at having a
close season. •», sei'ms to me that is the
surest and safest way to conserve all lish-
eries.

Mr. Keyes: 1 would like to ask the
doctor a question or two liefore he sits
down. Do you, in yonr ojiinion, think
that a close season in November will
prevent the depletion of the tish, and
if you do, why would it not be ))etter
to not catch them at all?

Dr. Sweeny: Well, I think if the fish
ermen are satisfied they can get along
without catching them, that tliat would
be a surer way yet to increase the sup-
ply of white fish.

Mr. Keyes: That is exactly the argu-
ment I make.

Dr. Sweeny: I know, but I hardly
tlnnk that is a fair argument. You
know just as »vell as I do that if pro-
tected they will increase, but it is this
destructive and persistent fishing in sea-
son and out of season that has ilestroyed
the abundance of fish.

Mr. Keyes: That is true.

Dr. Sweeny: Naturally there is a bal-
ance established in all animal life, either
in the water or in the air, and if a dis-
turbing element— and in this case the
fisherman is the disturbing element —
comes in you will destroy that balance,
but if that element is taken away the
natural Vialance will be restored and
there will be abundance.

Mr. Keyes: I would like to ask the
doctor another question. Keferring to

38

tlu' rt'pHMliu'ti III nf tlu- Hsli, wliatdittbr-
inu-a does it inako wlietlier you catch the
rtHli two <hiys before the law pays not to,
and juHt as the lisli are jjetting ready to
si)awn, or catch him the day lie lias
bef^nn to spawn ? You have destroyed
the ejfgs in tlie fish just tiie same.

Dr. Swetuiy: The difi'erence in tiiis: il'

you stop catcliing fish there will be all

those yon do not catch left to rejiroduce.

Mr. Keycs: That is true.

])r. Sweeny: That is just the <litter-

ence— there is no more or less.

Mr. Keyes: There is not any differ-
ence if yon (;atch a she fisli ; whether
you catch it in season or out youd stroy
just so much rejirodnction.

Dr. Sweeny: It is a (juestion of num-
bers, whether you want part of the
breeders left or not.

Mr. Keyes: Is it not a settle<l fact
that catchinjj; the fish in the spawninjr
season is tlie occasion of their decTcsuse?
Dr. Sweeny : 1 think, undoubtedly, it
is. If you kill a setting hen before she
hatches her eg^rs you destroy the brood.
Mr. Keyes: Don't you kill it just as
much if you kill her before she is ready
to hatch. If you catch a she fish with
the eggs in her just a week before she is
ready to spawn, or before the close sea-
son commences, yon havi' destroyed
that many fish just the same as if you
had caught her when she is ready to
sjtawn.

Dr. Sweeny: The diH'eience is that in
one case you stop killing ami in the
otlier you keep on.

Mr. Keyes: 1 will admit tliat argu-
ment , certainly if you stop killing there
wfll be more left.

Dr. Sweeny: A farmer does not eat
all his seed wheat, he retains enough
for the next crop, and that is simply
what we are asking the fishermen to do,
to save enough seed to insure another
crop. If you kill the gravid fish, the
race isextinc't.

Mr. Keyes: The point I was trying lo
make is this: in Lake Superior you iish
tlie entire season from the opening of
navigation to the close, do you not ?
Dr. Sweeny: When they can.

jNIr. Keyes: Not when they can, but
they do. They catch just as many Iish
in October or Sejiteinber as they do in
November.
Dr. Sweeny : Yes.

Mr. Keyes: They catch them in -Inly
or August as weli as in November.
Dr. Sweeny: They catch all they can.
^[r. Keyes: In no other lake is that
so.

Dr. Sweeny: I understood you to say
they lished all the year around in Laki'
Erie.

Mr. Kej'es: They do not catch white
fish, except in a feA' gill nets, in Luke
Erie.

The Chairman : I think the ten min-
utes \r up.

Mr. IVst: Mr. Chairman and (ieiitle-
men — It has occurreil to me that ♦^.ere
is room here for a compromise. Now
of course, I agree with a good deal that
.Mr. Keyes has said with reference to
the interest of the fishermen. .\ fish,
of course, is good for nothing until h"' '.:•
caught, and the purpose of raising fish
is to raise them for food. The matter
of limitation should be such a iea.son-
able limitation that it will insure the
natural increase of the fish as well as
l)rotect the work of artificial propaga-
tion. Mr. Keves has .said, and I believe
ii i.': a fact, that the run of herring pre-
cedes a little the run of whiie fish or the
heaviest run of white fish, and it occurs
to me tlu'.t if a comprourse were made
upon a close season and the fishing dur-
ing the sjiiwning season was not entire-
ly stopped it might be best. Suppose
the close season commenced on the ir,th
of November instead of the 1st. The
heavy run of the herring is by that time
|iiactically over, so that it would not in-
terfere with the herring fishing, and
would result in gr<uit benefit to the white
fish.

I have no doubt it is true that the
conditions nixm the upper en I of Lake
Krie are somewhat diflerent from what
they arc on Lake Si ptrior. Nature af-
fords a large protection to spawning Iish
in Lakt' Superior. The storms tir i
prevail there hoist the pound nets out

39

V can, but
many ii.sli
'»i?y do in

111 in .July
il)(^r.

<li('y can.
iv is tliat

f»ii to say
in Lake

fli wliiti'
in Lake

ten niin-

(u'ntlc-
at f\,t'rv
'• Xow
leal that
rence to

A flsli,

itil ),<• i;;

in},' M.sli
\ inattt'i-
reason -
iurc tin>
well as
Topat^a-
liclievr
ng pri'-
i ortlu'

Ol•('Ur^S

e made
iigdur-
entire-
ippose
le ir,tli
. Thu
it time
lot in-
r, and
whitt'

it the

Lake
wliat
rv Hl-
k' MnIi

til' .
" out

before the spawning season is over, and
I know it is a fact and haw bet'u so for
many years there, that it is very ditli-
cult for the people engaged in white fish
hatching to get eggs enough there on
account of the storms. Jtoctuirsto me
that if a close season in such waters as
l.ake Michigan, and possibly others of
thesani;' character, were divided to make
a compromise^ between the lishermen
and tlie people on this subject, we would
get something that both parties could
act under, and that would be a com-
promise that would perliajts get the sup-
port of the lishermen.

J appreciate what probably wi; all do,
th'.'.t ordinarily it is best to get some-
thing which can be enforced than to get
an ideal law which is never enforced.
It will be very tlitlicult, as Mr. Keyes
has said, to j)a6s any law in any ofthe.se
legislatures of the states that border on
these great lakes wliere the lishing in-
dustry is as large as it is, that would not
be extremely detrimental to their in-
terest. If you uinlertake to do more
than you can accomplish, you are wast-
ing your efforts. Now, it is very desir-
able, particularly lor us in Michigan,
and I jiresume it is so with the other
states where large fishing industries ob-
tain, to get an enforcement of a protec-
tive law that will have the support of
the better class of lishermen. Now, it
seems to inc it is better to attain to
something which shall answer the pur-
pose to a limited extent than to aim to
get an ideal law which will not have
the support of public opinion and of
such jiublic opinion as the Hsher-
men tiiemselvcs will be able to aid in
forming, and it has occurred to me that
possibly a close seasop which will ex-
tend from the l.-jth of N(»venibor on,
would be a reasonable protection, oven
in Lake Erie, to the white tish,and would
not interfere seriously with the lu'rriug
lishing.

The other suggestions that were made
by Mr. Keyes with retVrence to a law
which will prohibit the taking or having
in possession or transporting, or of
dealers liolvling for sale tish beneath a

given size, which shall be agreed upon—
and I think we shall have some difficulty
even in agreeing ujion that — will be a
gn>at aid in obtaining a law which will
meet the sujiport of the lishermen.
There is no doubt in my mind from the
experienie I have had with the better
(;lass of lishermen and those whose sup-
port would be more valuable, that they
are going to .see this matter somewhat
in the light we look at it, and they ap-
preciate the necessity for something be-
ing done in the way of iirevention of
ilestructive lishing. jMany of the other
suggestions which Mr. Keyvs made
might meel approbation — the limit to
the extent from the shore that lishing
should be carried on, leaving an open
passageway so that the fish could f,et to
their spawning grounds, but it seems to
me that something in the nature of a
compromise on this basis might, per-
haps, be reached by a conference ccmi-
mittee.

rUr, Bowman : Mr. Chairman and Gen-
tlemen—The represent '.tives of the>State
of New York are, perhaps, not largely in-
terested in this (juestion. Our lake is
separated from your lakes by a border
which makes it very dill'erent. We are
propagating white lisli now in our state
and will hatch fully l.j,()00,(XM) this year,
but as a general proposition in lisli iind
game!— and you see it illustrated i)erhaps
lietter in game than you do in fish —
unless there is a close season, and unless
they are protecteil in that close and
breeding season, they aie soon entirely
destroyed, I do not care what it is.
There is no artificial projiagation of
game, and the only thing that is left for
the game in this jiart of the country to-
day is simply to protect them in the
breeding seascn. It si-ems to me as
though that general proposition must
be true in everything, must be so with
lish as much as it is with game or any-
thing of the animal kin<l, I care not
what. ! '.

Now, it seems to me, as has been sug-
gested, that we should have some protec-
tion. I don't know whether the gentle-
men from the State of Ohio or the lish-

40

W

\
«'

ennen would be willing to see the entire
business destroyed. If they cannot take
them in November they cannot take
them at all they say, but 1 believe that
the fish should be protected and that
they would increase and the Hshermen
wouM take more if they were. 1 think
it is for their interest certainly as much
as it is for anybody's to do that which
will produce the most fish and give them
the greatest gain. That is the object
we all want to accomplish. Now, if it is
necessary, we should make some com-
promise, for it seems to me very essen-
tial that there should l)e something done
to allow these fish to reach their spawn-
ing grounds.

Our Canadian friend says, I believe,
they reproduce themselves and that ar-
tificial propagation is rather an aid than
the first cause, and it seems to me as
though we ought to reach some com-
promise which will enable thes'^ Psh ■
reach the spawning grounds and cast
their spawn before being taken.

We have the same ditiiculty in the
Hudson River. The shad run up the
Hudson River to spawn, they are there
at no other .-eason, we ge* them in the
spring. We have this same ditiiculty
with the lishermer,, and we had a fight
of one or two years until we could get
one or two days of open season whtreby
the shad could reach the fresh water at
the upper i)art of the Hudson whi're we
could get enough ripe shad to take th.e
spawn from. We contended for a com-
promise between the fishermen and the
people, and if they had not seen the
necessity of allowing the ripe fish to get
from the sea to the fresh water when
they were ready to spawn, we would not
have had any We used to catch them
at Troy hut now you see very few as high
as Albany. Our stations are all locat-
ed below Albany and we have had great
ditiiculty until we had a day or twoojten.
We thought it was not the proi)er thing
for lisheru'cn to fish on Sunday, so we
went to tlie Legislature on that ground,
putting it on a moral ground that the Hsh •
should have Sumlay, as the fishermen
needed it, and so they stop fishing every

Saturday night at 12 o'clock until Sun-
day night at 12 o'clock, and that gives
the fish an opportunity to go up and get
on the spawning ground where they are
ready 'o spawn.

Take the Connecticut Rivei ; you hard-
ly see a Connecticut shad in the market.
They have been entirely fished out an<l
they have never been reproduced. That
river runs through two or three differ-
ent states and one state is selfish about
it and says, " I will not pay the expenses
of a hatchery for the benefit of some
other state," and you hardly hear of a
Co.'inecticut shad in the market. It
may be from some other cause and soi 3
other reason, bnt these facts are true,
and it seems to me that it is to the in-
terest of fishermen as well as for every-
body, that we siiould have some kind of
a close season, and give these fish an oj)-
l)ortunity to cast their spawn when they
are ready to do it. Tliey will not cast
it at any other season ; they will spawn
in the fall when they are ripe, and at
that time it seems to me they should
certainly have a part of the si>awning
season, and the more the better, to get
onto the spawning ground and cast their
spawn and reproduce their kind.

I am very glad to see the fishermen
take an interest in this matter. I am
very glad for the suggestions made of
throwing the young fish back, I think it
will be of great benefit and I think it
will increase the supply very much. It
is r . ly judicious thing also to leave
tliv ■ I '1 ',el open so that they can get
I p . ' 3 pawning ground as suggest-
ed, an.'i f e can reach some compromise
— and thejL; seems to r)e but very little
difiiculty excei)t with the gentlemen
from Ohio— that will be satisfactory to
them and give th«:ae fish some oppor-
tunity to cast tneir spawn upon their
spawning grounds, I believe in the end
it will be a great deal better for the fish-
ermen. Of course the i>eople cannot get
these fish unless they are caught, but
whut is for the interest of the people is
for the interest of the fishermen. We
are all agreed upon one thing, that we
should hatch and protect and increase the

■\

\

suj
gre
wil
sel
we
an
tal

^

41

supply of fish as much as possible, the
greater the quantity the better everybody
will be pleased and we must not all be too
selfish, we must not want it all ourselves,
we should be willing to give and take,
and if we cannot get a whole loaf let us
take a half loaf, and let us make a com-
promise between the fishermen and the
people as has been suggested, say tlie
ir)th of November, and to sto]) fishing
after that. It seems to me that after
discussing this matter properly we can
reach a compromise that would be satis-
factory and just to all concerned, and
we I'ould pass laws in these diflerent
states that would be uniform, and tiiat
thereafter you will certainly have a
much better supply of fish than hereto-
fore.

Dr. Sweeny: If I am permitteil to
read a letter I would like to; it is in re-
sponse to some imiuiries from our vice-
president.

The President: I think you bave the
consent of the conference.

Dr. Sweeny: There are some points in
this that may be of interest. It is from
Mr. Turner, a man largely interested in
the lisli trade. He says:

"You ask a few points on the white
fish industry. We find that the sujjply
is not equal to the demand, nor are there
as many fish by half as tbere u.-seil to be
a few years ago. I am not conversant
with all the points on Lake Superior, but
at Ashlmd, HayfieM and Dulutli and
vicinity it is immediately under my
management. Would say Ashland Hay
may be called the wliite fish breeding
ground, also at the end of Lake Super-
ior, near Duluth, on the soutii shore
and along Minnesota Point net fishing
should be prohibited, as they use too
small meshes an<l catch a great many
small white fish before they are of mar-
ketable size, and by this destruction pn--
vent them from maturing. AVould also
suggest that Minnesota I'oint and the
Wisconsin side of Lake Superior, near
Duluth, and the whole of .\shland Ray
l)e protected liy a three-mile limit, and
no nets should be set within three miles
from the above shores, on the breed-

ing grounds of the white fish in that
vicinity.

We find that fishing has not been pro-
fitable for the last three or four years
"(he might have said ten)" within 30
miles of Duluth. The growth of the
cities of Superior and Duluth may possi-
bly impregnate the water, and with the
small mesh nets that have been hereto-
fore used be tlu; cause of this great scar-
city. I regret very much not being able
to be present, but Mr. Timberlake will
explain that it is a physical impossibil-
ity for me to be then'. We sincerely
trust that in your deliberations some-
thing may be accomplished for the pro-
tection of this great industry."

I will state that Mr. Turner is very
sick and has been for some time, or he
would have been at this meeting.

The President: I will ask the Secre-
tary to read a jtortion of tlie letter of Mr.
Mr. Booth, who is largely interested in
the fishing business, upon this point
now under consideration.

The Secretary: Mr. Booth says:

" In relerence to the small meshes of pound
nets and k'H nets, which I think do more to des-
troy the fishing interest of the lakes than any-
thing else, I do hope we may profit by the better
observance of the laws in '•eference to the pro<-
tection of fish and game enacted in Canada, or
rather the enforcement of it. I should very
much like to see a more cordial feeling existing
between our country and Canada in reference to
a uniformity of fish laws, and trusi that from
your deliberations much good may result.
I am sincerely yours,

A. BOOTH,
President of the A. Booth Packing Co."

The President: Gentlemen, we havf;
with us to-night a man who was con-
nected for a number of years with the
^Michigan Fish Commission and who was
instrumental in drafting the original law
tiiaf set some restraint upon fishing.
He gave the subject a very great <leal of
attention, and I know that lie has the
matter now just as closely at heart as he
had at the time he was on the commis-
sion. I wouM ask Mr. John H. Bissell
to give us an expression of his views
upon this matter.

Mr. Bissell: Mr. Chairman and Gen-
tlemen -Although for two years out of

42

the harness, I have not lost any of my
interest in the subject of the propaga-
tion and protection of Qsii and the exten-
sion of the fisheries. I listened the short
time I was in this afternoon with a great
deal of interest to what >va8 beiny said
about Lake Erie. My own studies on
this subject led me a good while ago to
the conclusion that the first thing we
needed was a way of enforcing such laws
as we could get, and in connection with
the enforcement of the laws to give a
careful study to the condition of the fish-
eries in the different waters of the great
lakes.

Something has been said this evening
al)out a uniformity of laws. It is possi-
ble you may get uniform laws for Ohio,
Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota, but
I doubt if the uniformity could go very
far. The conditions of fishing in the
different seasons in the different waters
are different. Now, what the gentle-
man from Ohio said about the fisheries
at the upper end ©f Lake Eri- lemon-
strated to me that it would be unfair for
the fishermen to make the same regula-
tions for the fishing east of Cleveland
that are established for the fishing in the
west end of the lake — the upper end of
the lake— if all fisherman are to have
anything like a fair chance at the fish-
ing.

While some of us know a good deal
perhaps about fishing in certain locali-
ties, I am quite satisfied that none of us
know enough about tl :e varying condi-
tions in all the waters of the great lakes
to be able to sit d jwn at a table and pre-
pare what we would be satisfied was a
satisfactory and just law, say, with ref-
erence to the sizes of the meshes of the
nets, a law with reference to the time
when fishing should be permitted, and
possibly with reference to the size of the
fish. With reference to the size of the
fish probably we could get uniformity
bettor than in any other one particular.
The state should pa.ss such laws as they
can get, not trying to get, as Mr. Post has
said, ideal laws. Of course you cannot
get perfect laws all in a hurry. If you
i^ould get a law that would regulate the

size of the fish and at the same time a
law that would regulate the meshes of
the nets, with discretionary powers
lodged in some intelligent officer, who
would be under proper supervision, I
think vou would get the best results.

But before you could get a law that
any one of us would be satisfied with,
there must be a study of the conditions
of the fisheries in the different waters.
Takt- such a state as Michigan. A law
that would be answerable for our Mon-
roe coast of Lake Erie, I am satisfied
would be entirely unsuited to the condi-
tions about the Straits of Mackinaw and
the south shore of Lake Superior. In
order to get that information, officers
who are enforcing laws for the states
ought to be furnished with some means
of acquiring and preserving useful and
necessary knowledge on that subject.
It is a pretty broad suV)ject, and I am
conscious that T am only touching on
fragments of it here and there. It is a
matter that I spent a good many winter
evenings on when it was my duty to be
studying such matters, and T can only,
in a very fragmentary way, make sug-
gestions here this evening. One of the
most important that I can mak;^ is that
each of the states should try to get war-
dens or other officers, it makes no dif-
ference what you call them, who would
have some sort of discretion in permit-
ting the use of nets of a small mesh at a
time when it would not result in the
killing of white fish. Take, for instance,
the upper end of Lake Erie. If fishing
is permitted in November in those wat-
ers, it would destroy no small white
fish, it would hurt no small white fish ;
there would be no small white fish there
to hurt. The thing that could possibly
be accomplished is first to get the offi-
cers to enforce such laws as we have ;
second, to have those officers furnished
by the state with means to acquire the
knowledge that is necessary for the es-
tablishment of just, fair and reasonable
regulations.

I should like to go over the subject of
the regulations of the fisheries by way
of licensing. I became satisfied from

48

my examination of the subject that that
is one of tlie things that ought to be
kept in view all the tine. The time
has got to come when the industry of
fishing will ^" "-.sensed, and the time
ought to come when the amount of fees
and revenue that would come from the
licensing of the fishing in its proper
regulation would defray not only the
cost of enforcing the laws, l)ut also the
cost of such necessary propagation as
the states found necessary to conduct.

Mr. Hampton: Mr. Bissell has touched
upon a question that lies more particu-
larly within my field than that which
has been under discussion. I would not
of course assume to discuss the (juestion
of propagation of fish. That is out of
my line, and all that I might say upon
the matter which is really under dis-
cussion would be in the nature of a ques-
tion.

It has been suggested to me by Michi-
gan fishermen, and on account of my lo-
cation at the headquarters of one of the
principal fishing firms upon the lakes, I
have liad some ojiportunities of learning
something about the matters you have
talked about — it has been suggested
that one of the best ways of accomplish-
ing this object you are all aiming at,
would be to prevent the setting of nets
in a certain depth of water, following
out as I understand it, somewliat the
plan that is in vogue in Ohio, as stated
by Mr. Keyes of that state. I believe
that in the waters adjacent to our state
(Michigan) that would be practical, be-
cause our lakes are such that you can-
not wade across them without wetting
your pants, but I do not know how that
would be in Lake Erie, whether the
same laws that would be applical)le to
Michigan would be applicable there or
not. I would simply throw out that
suggestion, that the gentlomen, in con-
sidering the resolution, would say whe-
ther or not the taking of fish upon their
spawning beds could not be prevented
by some provision in [regard to the
depth of water at which nets should be
set, as well as having a close season.

Now, in regard to the matter sug-

gested by Mr. Bissell, as to what should
be the first thing done, I must differ
slightly with him, and I speak from ex-
perience when I say that the first thing
is not to get the officers to enforce the
law, but to get the laws, or you cannot
enforce them. With the laws as they
are in Michigan, and I speak from ex-
perience, under the very best system ef
wardens, under the very best paid offi-
cers, it would be utterly impossible to
enforce them. We had ostensibly laws
regulating the size of the mesh, and yet
by some oversight, by some blunder,
every time that these laws have been
amended, they have included that same
clause that the nets now in use may be
permitted. I just refer to that as one
thing.

Mr. Bissell : It was not an oversight.

Mr. Hampton: I suppose the idea
was, there was a constitutional (piestion
involved there, that tiiey could not take
property now in use. I sui)pose that was
the idea. If that was the idea it nullifies
absolutely any enforcement of that law.
That is an illustration of the fish laws,
and many of our game laws are so frail
that it is utterly impossible in Michigan,
until these defects are corrected, to
have an enforcement of most of them.
So I believe the first thing to do is to
nave the laws that can be enforced and
then I will say, have a system of ward-
ens that you all agree upon to have
those laws enforced.

Mr. Wilmot: I beg to intrude again
for a tew minutes, parti(!ularly in regard
to the remarks that came from Mr. Bis-
sell. His view would .seem to be to es-
tablish a sort of sliding scale for the
close season for fishing.

I may say to you that I have con-
structed fourteen hatcheries in the Do-
mini >n of ('anada, from the Atlantic
Ocean to the Pacific, ami my experience
of twenty-five years proves to me be-
yond any doubt that there is a very
little variation with regard to the spawn-
ing time of the salmonidii' in that great
extent of territory. We have taken
white fish in Manitoba, white fish in the
Georgian Bay, white fish in Lake On-

44

tario and at other points, and we do not
find beyond tliree or four days' difler-
ence of the time in vvliich the great
spawning time takes phice. We have
salmon liatcheries extending from the
Atlantic Coast to the Pacific and we find
but very little deviation, not beyond a
week or ten days, of all the eggs we
gather for our hatcheries. We have sal-
mon trout that we gather in Georgian
Bay, along Lake Ontario and elsewhere,
and, in fact, it only deviates a few days
in regard to time when the eggs are per-
fectly ripe for impregnation.

80 under those circumstances the Do-
minion Government has thought proper
to select a period wliich will cover all
the locations between tiie Pacific and
the Atlantic as far as a I'lose season is
concerned. They find that the salmon
trout and the white fish will be covered
by a close season taking in the month of
November. That also includes herring.
If you are going to give a part of a sea-
son, eight or ten days, it will amount to
nothing, because they do not spawn in
thac time. Some fish are a little further
advanced when they approach theshores
for reproduction than others, and you
must get a certain limit in which you
cover the greater proportion of the
spawn, and our exi)erience of some
twenty-five or thirty years shows that
the month of November will cover the
period of spawning of the white fish in
the northwest territories, in Manitoba,
in Georgian Bay, in Lake Huron and in
Lake Ontario and elsewhere where we
have been manipul«ting fish. The cou-
8e(iuence is that 1 think if you wisli to
have a variable period, you will not be
carrying out what is correct with regard
to the protection and propagation of
your fishes. Take only one limited
period of time and that will cover two or
three of the more important species and
let that be kept tlioroughly and effi-
cientiy and you reach the point which
you are aiming at; but, to have a slitl-
ing scale with regard to a close season,
having one time in one state and an-
other in another, to my mind would be

a fallacy and amount to nothing what-
ever.

Mr. Osborn : ]\Ir. Chairman and Gen-
tlemen of the Convention — We cannot
get, sometimes, home rule when we
want it, and it is not policy for this con-
vention, I think, to ask of the legisla-
latures of the states to enact laws which
will stop the fishermen from fishing in
November. I do not believe one of
them will grant it. You will get noth-
ing. In our state we have shortened
the time to thirty-five days for shooting
(piails and we have doiie it gradually.
We commenced with sixty-five days and
there is scarcely a sportsman in Ohio
to-day who would be willing to grant an
extension of the time, for they find that
in the thirty-five days of open season we
have an abundance of game, and it is
not possible for them to reduce the
(juantity of game by shooting.

If we could have five days, say at the
dose of the season before the fish (piit
spawning, with no nets at all, we would
have a great (pxantity of fish spawned,
naturally. As Mr. Bowman has sliown,
one .Sal)l)ath day or two Sabbath days of
the shad season in New York gives
jilenty of shad from which to take the
spawn. The shell fishermen of New
York and Connecticut have hit upon a
I)lan for the preservation of their shell
fish(>ries that is a perfect success, and the
shell fisheries of the Chesapeake Bay will
havi' to come t<» the same — the leasing
of grounds upon which the shell fish
grow and are produced. We will have
to come to this upon our lakes, the leas-
ing of the fishing grounds, for only upon
leased grounds do we reach that enforce-
ment of observance of law which will
make the fishing perpetual. We have the
de("ision in Ohio of some ot our best law-
yers, showing tliat this is constitutional
and that it is in the power of the state
to lease the fishing grounds. Now, you
can .see that leases could be executed in
such shape as to put the conduct of the
fishing, the ways for the fishing, the
days for the fishing, altogether in the
hands of the officers having it in charge,

45

and tliiH settles entirely and altoK'ether
the whole question. Canada, under the
common rulinf; as given hy our own
lawyers, can do the same thing; they can
lease their fishing grounds, and this will
prevent the troul)le.

Mr. Wilmot: They are doing it now,
sir, and always have.

Mr. 0.sborn : That only goes to show
we can do it too, but upon the opinions
founded upon general law and good rea-
son, it can be done upon both sides of
the water, and I tliink if this convention
will consider tlie feasibility of leasing
and its desirability, and recommend
that, we will do a great deal, but I be-
lieve if we ask the state legislatures to
prohibit fishing <luring the month of
November, we will accomplish nothing.
We may accomplish a good deal upon
the other hand. This matter has been
considered by our fishermen and there
are a great many difficulties in the way,
but they are principally selfish difficul-
ties, that is, difficulties between the fish-
ermen and the location of their nets, but
if they do not do somefhing they will
have no fish to catch after a short tiine.

The Secretary: Mr. Ohairman and
Gentlemen— T have been listening to the
remarks made his evening upon this
subject, and I must say that it is a very
deep and very knotty subject to setth'.
I think we have lost sight of one thing
that was recalled to me by the ol)serva-
tion of Mr. Kooth in his letter in regard
to meeting our neighbors across the
water, the Canadians, and we should
bear in mind that their territory covers
the entire north shore of our inland
great lakes and that they have not only
passed these laws of close season?, ))ut
they have gone still farther and ap-
pointed a committee this last fall for the
puri)Ose of conferring with the ])eoi)leof
the United States in reference to these
great lakes and the fisheries. Now, the
thought has occuri^l to me that after
all our tliscussion, it <loes not seem pos-
sible for us to agree, and as Mr. Hissell
has remarked, this is a matter that re-
tiuires a great deal of study. I think
that six of the states bordering on the

great lakes are to-night represented.
Three of them are not represented,
Pennsylvania, Illinois and Wisconsin.
Considering the importance of the mat-
ter, and the many cjuestions arising to
be settled and interests to be considered
and subserved, it occurred to me whether
it would not be better for this meeting
to appoint a committee empowered to
draw up a petition or a retpiest to be
sent to the governors of the states bor-
dering on the great lakes, stating the
importance of the subject, and the fact
that Ontario has appointed a commis-
sion, for the purpose and ask those gov-
ernors and their legislatures to appoint
a commission to meet with the Ontario
commission and take evidence and ex-
amine into this subject. Then they
could report back to their difierent leg-
islatures the legislation that they deem
best and wi.sest to enact. Do you not
think that by that wo would arrive at a
wise solution of the whole matter ?
Would it not ])e better than to go to the
(liflferent legislatures and get enactments
that would not agree ? It seems to me
tiiat to accomplish anything we have not
onlj' got to get at the thing correctly be-
fore we go to the legislatinvs, but we liave
got to get some unformity, and tlien be-
sides all that we have to go there with a
sentiTient behind us that will carry us
through. Such a proposition commg
from such a commission, representing
Ontario and all the states bordering on
till' great lakes, after plenty of study
and consideration and testimony from
parties interested, would be a step to-
ward the settlement of the whole ([iies-
tion. I merely make that suggestion as
it occurred to me after hearing the re-
marks of you gentlemen. I think we
ought to meet our Canadian brothers
hall way and show them we are inter-
ested in these fisheries of the great lakes.
Mr. -Vndius: It has been the iilea of
the Minnesota commission that the time
is not far distant when we will have to
do as our Canadian friends do and lea.se
the grounds. I fully agree with the re-
marks of the gentleman who has pre-
ceded me, Mr. Amsden, that it would be

4r.

wise first to have a committee appointed
to draft a petition witii snch a recjueatas
lie snggests. S])eaking for the Minne-
sota commission, I believe we would fall
in with that very quickly.

Mr. Wilniot: I wish to say something
with regard to the leasing of the fisher-
ies. The Canadian Government both
leases the fisheries and grants licenses,
and each of those leases and licenses al-
ways have in them the statement that
the close season shall be observed so
that the leasing of the fisheries or any-
thing of that kind will not interfere with
the system we adopt in having a close
season.

Dr. Sweeny: It seems to me, gentle-
men, that the closer we are to the law-
making power tlio better. I do not
know what influence your governor may
have on the legislature herein this state,
or in any other of the states, but in our
state a respectable committee can do
more with the permanent standing com-
mittee toward maintainini the laws than
the governor.

I think the surest way for us to do is
to talk to these gentlemen like brother
Keyesand show them that we are honest-
ly and earnestly working in their interest.
It does not make a cent's worth of differ-
ence to me who catches the fish. I
would like to see you catch twice as
many fish as you did before, but I hon-
estly and earnestly believe that the way
to do that is to preserve the fish by a
close season and give ttiem a chance to
reproduce themselves, and we will sup-
plement the natural process by fish
culture. And if wo can convince you
that we are working in your interest,
which I honestly think we are, and you
would join your efforts to ours, there
need be no contest; we can have these
laws passed and the fish will be pre-
served, and you will get the benefit, not
the fish commissions. We will get no
benefit ; it is our fellow citizens who are
making their money by catching fish.
We only ask you to join us in the effort
to increase the fish business, your own
business ; it will not make a cent's worth
of difference to any fish commiss'on that

I know of, but we are sincerely working
in the interest of those who are making
money out of catching fish, and I think
if we can get together and show that
there is no antagonism between the fish
culturists and the fish catchers, the mat-
ter may be settled without any difhculty.
It is my earnest desire that such a
meeting o: these committees to be ap-
pointed will be brought about, and that
we will formulate something that may
lead to proper legislation, which will
conserve and preserve and extend the
benefits that the fishmen are getting,
and not only they, but through them
the whole people will receive the bene-
fit of it. That is as I take it, the whole
of the matter, that we wish to preserve
the fish we have instead of letting them
be extinguished. To increase the sup-
ply, ari that increase inures to the ben-
efit of those wh(j have their money in-
vested in the selling and catching of
fish. It seems to me that if we can come
to an understanding with each other
that there is no antagonism, it will be
seen that we do not wish to oppress
any man's business. I am sure all the
fish culturists that I know would like to
see them catch tenfold what they are
to-day. That is the whole object of our
efforts, and has been for years, and as I
say, if we can come to an understanding
with each other and show you these
things, I think your business and your
interests will be .subserved beyond any
other. We have been receiving this op-
position from the fishermen for years,
and at first it was ten times as pro-
nounced as it is at the present time,
and I feel encouraged. At first they
were not willing to allow us to take the
eggs, and now they gladly assist and do
everything they cai., give us room in
their boats to take the eggs, and are
glad we are doing it, and this last year
the only jealousy I have seen on Lake
Superior was because we did not have a
man with each boat that went out.

Mr. Huntington: Mr. Chairman, as I
understand, this is a conference for the
purpose of consid'»ring certain questions,
and the first (juestion before it for con-

47

sideration is In relation to protection.
Tlie one now under consideration is, an
I underHtand it, should there be a dose
season for white fish?

It ai)pearH to jne there is a very t,'reat
diHerence of opinion upon the subject
liere, and it seems to me tliat it is an
abstract question wliich we have before
us to be considered. I luive listened
with a great deal of attention to the ar-
guments of these gentlemen from their
various standpoints, and while we are
not a legislative body, and not responsi-
ble to our legislatures, yet it might lead
to a good deal of benefit if we could
agree upon making a uniform recom-
mendation, and I will make the follow-
ing motion, that it is tlie judgment of
this conference that there should be a
close season.

The motion was sup])orted.

The Chairman : The motion is now
open for discussion. We have not beard
from Mr. McDonald, and as he represc^nts
the Buffalo Fish Company, we would be
very glad to hear from him.

Mr. McDonald: I think that first
question should read. Should there be a
close season for herring, instead of wliite
fish? I think the white fish are all out
of Lake Erie, and it is the herring we
are after now. We have made up our
minds that there should be a close sea-
son for the fish. We believe that every-
thing should be taken out of the water
on the loth day of November, every net
of every description. We do not believe
at all in having a close season in the
spring of the year. We think the pick-
erel is a fish that should be cleaned out
of Lake Erie. We claim that they con-
sume more herring than their own real
value amounts to. There is really no
money in the fish.

Dr. Sweeny : May I ask what fish you
mean by pickerel ?

Mr. McDonald: I mean the wall-eyed
pike. We think a good deal of the
Canada laws, in theway they stand now,
and I suppose the dealers on this side
will have some prejudice against us on
that account, for the reason that we
get a great many of the Canada fisli.

We think that tlie Canada laws, modi-
fied a little bit, taking that spring close
season out of them and having a close
season for everything in the fall of the
year, would do a great deal toward re-
))lenishing the lakes. There was a let-
ter read from a gentleman a few min-
utes ago which stated that the white fish
were apparently cleaned out. We are
having more white fish to day than we
ever had.

The Secretary: Where do they come
from ?

Mr. McDonald: From Canada, from
Lake Erie, Georgian Bay, Superior and
Manitoba.

The Secretary: You do not get any
from Lake Erie?

Mr. ^FcDonald : We get our share of
them.

The Secretary: Are there any caught
in your nets?
Mr. McDonald : Yes.
TheSecretary: What part of the year?
Mr. McDonald: We catch them in
November and October.

Mr. Keyes: Were there more wiiite
fish this fall than last?
Mr. McDonald: Yes.
The Secretary: You say you catch
white fish, at which end of the lake?

Mr. McDonald: Both ends. We have
fisheries at both ends of the lake.

The Secretary: On the American or
Canadian side?
Mr. McDonald : Both sides.
The Secretary : You get white fish on
V)oth sides and at both ends of the lake ?
Mr. McDonald: Yes.
Mr. Wilmot: During the close season?
Mr. McDonald: No, sir; we never vio-
late the close season of Canada. You
know better than to do that, and that
is one reason why we admire the Cana-
dian laws. When they say you have to
do a thing in Canada, you have got to
do it. We tested that this fall on the
herring, and they gave us orders to stop
fishing, and we stopped.

Mr. Post : I may say so far as the De-
troit River is concerned on the Araeri-
side, that all the fish caught were caught
by the Detroit Fish Commission, and

48

they answered a UHcfiil purpose in fur-
niHhing spawn for reproducing fisli. We
caught all the tisli that were caught on
this side of the river this season and
practically all that have been caught for
several years.

Mr. Wilmot: I might state for the in-
formation of the conference that it is the
same case with (Canada, all the iisli
(taught on the Canadian side of the De-
troit River were caught hy the gcnern-
ment nets this year.

Mr. Keyes: In regard to this tpiestion
of a close season, 1 will say we cannot
make a law in Ohio which will close one
part of tlie lake and leave the other jiart
open. If we make a law it has got to be
for the whole state.

The Secretary : What are you going to
do with Pennsylvania ?

Mr. Keyes: Pennsylvania, of course,
is left out. Many of you are laboring
under a decided mistake so far as the
the fishermen are concerned. There are
no people on the face of the earth who
are more anxious to keep up the fish
supply of these lakes than the fishermen
engaged in catching them for commerce.

The question of a close season is not a
new question. You take the matter of
the shad that Mr. Bowman talked about
in the Hudson River. I would like to
know when he would take them if he
did not take them in the spawning sea-
son, that is the only time.

Dr. Sweeny : That is because they do
not live in fresh water.

Mr. Keyes : The trouble with the close
season in Lake Erie is that you want to
take the very month when we can catch
the fish.

Mr. Post . We propose to divide it.

Mr. Keyes: I am not talking about
the time at all ; l)ut you take the only
time that the fishermen can take the
fish in paying (juantities. If you could
prove that by the close season of the
month of Novem])er,»you would replen-
ish the waters of Lake Erie, you might
have an argument, but I doubt very
much if you could substantiate that.

Dr. Sweeny : There is Canada, that is a
sample.

Mr. Keyes: It is not at all parallel to
the State of Ohio on the fish (juestion.
If you catch a she fish before it has
spawned, you destroy the spawn just as
njuch as if you wait until the spawning
season and get it.

Mr. Wilmot: You say there is nojtos-
.sibility of destroying the fish for spawn-
ing purj)oses?

Mr. Keyes : No, I do not sa)' that.
What I mean is this: If we can leave
enough ground, if the fishermen will not
lay their nets so that the fish cannot get
to their spawning grounds, your supply
of fish will be kept u]).

Mr. Harris: I do not think sutlicient
stress has l)een laid on the question as to
whether white fish are fit for food at the
time we projjose for a close season, that
is, during the spawning season.

A circumstance occurred in 1885 in
England, during the i)eriod of the great
Fisberies Exhibition, while the Chinese
deputation were over there. They were
surjirised at the scarcity and price of
fish in Kngland. In their own country,
which is the most densely populated
country in the world, there are cheap
fish and fish for everybody, but is is their
religion which keeps it up. While the
Chinese will eat rats at any time, it is
their religion not to touch a fish in the
spawning season. They look upon it as
poison, and the fact remains that in
China, probably more than in any other
country, there is a superfluity of fish,
and fish for the whole population. It is
not at all improbable if we go on in this
country catching our fish out of season
that we will have to learn what it has
taken them a thousand years to learn,
that we will destroy everything. In
Canada we destroyed everything; we
destroyed game and fish and a good deal
of the land. Everything is wasted. It
seemed to come natural to destroy.

When we come to Lake Erie, the lake
I know most about, I know just how
much destruction has taken place there.
When I was a young man it was one of
the finest white fish lakes in Canada,
and you can imagine what the rush of
white fish 48 years ago was that came up

\1

4d

tlif hctniil liivci' to spiiwii iUid lor iiotli-
\nii cl.sc. Voii (Ic'stroyi'il tlu'in iind tlicy
arc piiic. Ill Canada, in tin- position
in wliifii I liavo recently been placed,
tlioii^di only temporarily, it occurs to me
that we hold our fisheries in trust for
the people.

Tho Chairman: That is right.

^Ir. Harris; To see that they have for
all time a supply of fish; that the coun-
try is not de|jrivt>d of this fish.

Mr. Keyes: I would like to ask you if
yon think it is right to catch a lish in a
gill net?

Mr. Harris: 1 look upon the seine as
the worst of all nets; I look upon iiie
gill net as the next worse, and 1 look
upon the pound net with a i)roperniesh
as the proper way to catch, iish in our
lakes.

Mr. Keyes: That is right.

Mr. Harris: I believe there are more
fish destroyed in the (Jeorgian Bay, car-
ried away in November by gill nets, than
are ever brought ashore.

Th(^ Secretary: Supi)0se, Mr. Keyes,
nothing is done in the way of regulating
the fisheries of Lake Erie in the next
five or ten years, what would become of
your iuve^ments in your boat.-;, twine
and everytbing else ; would it be a dead
loss to you ?

Mr. Keyes: I do not think that makes
any diflerence, though J will answer that
ipiestion. 1 am perfectly satisfied that
if some regulation is not entered into,
the iishing outfits in Lake Erie in five
years will not l)e worth o cents on the
dollar.

I\Ir. Harris: I have been asked what I
consider the proi)er pound net. I sup-
pose that is meant for Lake Erie. I can
only si)eak for our own side, Ijut I think
the proper pound net for our side of the
lake is an .SO rod lead, six or seven inch
extension mesh, four-inch mesh in the
hearts and three-inch in the pots. 1
think our herring in Lake Erie are much
larger than the Lake Huron herring and
considerably larger than the Lake On-
tarifj herring. 1 think our three-inch
mesh will just catch the proper herring,
and will allow a verv fair-sized small

white fish to escape. That is the net t
think is proper for bake Erie, and I
think it would be satisfactory to most of
our fishermen.

Mr. Wilniot : Will you describe to the
conference the idea that pnnails with
the pound net fishermen on liuke Erie
as to the close season ?

Mr. Harris: Our jxiund net num are
ipiite willing to have a twenty-day close
season, and I think you may say they
are prei)ared for a nnjnth. There was a
suggestion to make the clo.se season
from the lolls of October, but that was
too nnndi for them. They are (piite
prepared and I thi)d< they look forward
to having a proper close season. There
are very lew gill net men with us and
many of them have but a very small
amount of cai)ital invested, but our
pound net men usually huve five or six
nets and their steam tugs .'.ind ice houses.
S(,me of them hav(^ freezcsrs, l)utit is not
a very pleasant outlook for a man with
several^housand dollars in the fishery
business to look forward to that business
getting worsi' and worse every year, and
to look forward to nothing less than to
have to sell out and start some other
business. They areall beginningto have
those views on this question, and they
are all willing to listen to any plan that
is suggested to improve thi'ir fisheries,
so they may look forward to the im-
provement of their business from year
to year.

The Chairman: Gentlemen, is there
anything more to be said on this ipies-
tion? I feel, myself, that I would like
to talk on it, l>ut I shall not delay you.
There has been a ureat deal said and 1
should like to have alluded to what lias
brought this matter to the attention of
lish culturists, and to their disinterested
way of looking at the matter. We have
no antagonism to the fishermen, but we
do feel the truth of the expression used
i)y our Canadian friend (Mr. Harris),
that we hold the fisheries in trust for
the people for the future. I will not go
oil because the hour is too lati', and if
there is nothing more to be said, I will
put the (piestion. ; ; ,

r)()

Mr. Wilniot: I move that the chiiir-
Tnan !)(' uHowimI to prooetMl with his rc-
iniirks.

Th(> motion was put by tlie Secretary
and carri»>(l.

Mr. Wliitaiccr: In my boyliood days I
liv<Ml about sixty or Hoveiity niih'H sontii
of Lalxc Ontario, in the State of New
York, and in the winter season of tlie
year it was a customary tiling for tbe
farmers in tiiat eommunity to g<» to
Channiont Bay, and bring back in tlieir
fileiglis large (juantities of Lake Ontario
fish. Tliey would bring back trout,
wiiite llsh and ciscoes, and tliese were
sold to the farmers all about tbat coun-
try and served the purpose of breaking
up the monotony of the pork barrel,
giving to the farmer a variety of cheap
and wholesome food for his table. About
twenty years ago I left the State of New
York, and from information I have I
know that within five or ten years from
the time I spoke of the commercial fish-
ing of Lake Ontario became extinct,
l)ractically . It was not pursued for profit
any longer by fishermen. This iP
trates what fishing without rest
will <lo. The same thing is occnrrinft ^.i
Lake Erie to-day, and tlie same is true
of the fishing in the lower end of Lake
Huron.

Look at Lake Huron in 1834, accord-
ing to Blois' statement of its fisheries,
and look at Lake Huron to-day. Blois
in his Gazetteer, published in 1834, said
of the locality at the Straits of Macki-
nac, the fish are so plentiful here that
for ages they must furnish the principal
article of food to the large number of
people wlio shall settle upon the shores
of these lakes. It wa§ true, and the size of
the fish was magnificent. But Blois never
could have dreamed that in fifty or sixty
years from the date at which he wrote
there would be settled, in the six states
bordering upon the shores of these lakes,
one sixth of the entire population of
the United States of America. He never
could have dreamed that in every im-
portant fishing port upon those lakes
there wonld be freezers of immense
cai)a<ity. whieli W(»ul(l make it not only

possible but profitalde for fishermen to
fish the entire year, except when the
elements drove them from tlieir pur-
suit.

The fishermen say to our commission
when we go to them for the purpose of
gatheiing statistics, that year by year
the meshes of the nets are contracted,
they grow smaller and smaller. I liave
had^tfthat information from tishermen
since we liave been in session Ii< re, and
the attempt at all times aJid at all places
is to take fish with a gradually decreas-
ing mesh. The result of it is that tin-re
are to-day hundreds of tons, 1 believe,
of small white fish that are taken under
the guise of lierring ami are sold in the
markets for herring.

Another thing that apjieals to us as
commissioners, and we have no other
interest in the fisheries except to sub-
serve the interest of the public at large,
is the fact that the work we are doing
to-day, which the states engage in so
willingly, is for the purpose of perpetu-
ating this foo<l for the ])eople, and inci-
dentally the fishermen reap the benefit.
The trouble is that they take our fish
before they ever get to a spawning age,
and there comes in the iniquity of the
thing. There are fishermen all through
thefte lakes who desire some sort of close
season imposed or some sort of restric-
tion laid to prevent the waste.

These things appeal to us as commis-
sioners. We have no interest in it ex-
cept as a public undertaking. We say
to the fishermen, look at this matter in
the way we look at it. If you can leave
in the waters these fish that in a year or
two will be merchantable and of value
to you, why not permit them to ]>e left
there? Why take them out when they
are immature and have never come to a
spawning age ? In that way we lose the
great benefit of our work of artificial
propagation, and I say to you now what
I firmly believe, that in the courst* of a
very years if this thing goes on as it has
been going on, it will all stop. I say to
you fishermen that it is to your interest
as well as to the interest of the public,
whom we represent in this matter, that

61

Hiiiuc rciiHoiiiililc rc^jnlation Hliouhl be
iiii|Hts(Ml 1 wniild not liciir l<» a rcfriila-
tioM tliat would drive a man out of liis
biisiiu'Hfi, lint li't us liavc some rcaKou-
ahlc roKuIatioii that will not permit you
to tai<(' out thcHi' tisli when tlicy arc im-
mature, l)nt will leave them in the lakes
until they are marketable and of value.

As far as the white fish is «'oncerned,
it is a tender tisli, and I am aHsured by
men who know, that they are so tender
that very many tinu's in handlinjr they
are injured so they die. 1 cannot quite
understand the idea— I may be wronjj —
I may not be informed, but what is the
use of takinjj; these fish in nets if you are
iin'iun to put them baek again'.' Why
not leave them in the Jakes? Why not
HO eonstruct your n(!ts that you will not
take them at '(/', but so they will take
oidy the tish that are of merchantable
size? It seems to me that that ought to
be a reasonable regulation to lay u])on
the fishing industries.

Lot me say one thing with reference to
a close season. Tn Canada they have the
month of November closed. Their fish-
ing is |)rofitable. There is no complaint {
there fron> the Canadian fishermen, as I '
understand, that the fisliing is not profit-
able ; but the only thing they do saj' is
that our neighbors are fishing without
restriction across the border, so why not
allow us to go on and do it? I am thank-
ful to see that there is one place on
(iod's footstool where they do enforce a
law that seems to be a reasonable and
just law. I wish we might do it here.

Tiiere were some remarks made here
with regard to a licensing of grounds.
I a.ssure you, gentlemen, that if we go
along for just about five or ten years
more in this way you can license your
grounds for growing celery or fresh
water oysters, l)ut you cannot lic^ense
them for wliite fish. The fish will be
gone ! There will be nothing to lease.
The state will have no fishing grounds
that there will be any money in. There
will be no temi>tation for a man to rent
fishing grounds here at all. The destruc-
tion of the small fish is the thing, if it is
possible, that we should overcome. 1

hopj' we shall get together on this ami
tluit we shall adopt the resolution of the
conference committee that nuiy rej/ort
here to-morrow if the report commends
its«f]f to UH. Let them report here to-
morrow nu)rning at 10 o'clock ; let us
iuive that conference committee; let us
see wluit we can do, and I shall be very
glad indeed if we can come lo some con-
clusion. Our legislative bodies ought
not to ])e a{)art from each other in the
matter of regulation. We ought to be
united, but it is hard to be met by the
statement that no regulation will l)e
submitted to in the matter of restriction.
If we are wrong in this thing, this con-
ference committee can come to some con-
clusion and suljmit it to na, and we can
come to a determination as to what ouiilit
to be done.

Mr. McDonald: Before we close [ want
to say that you are wrong in thinking
that we are not in favor of a clf»se season.

The Chairman : I did not so under-
stand your position, Mr. McDonald.

If there is nothing more to be said on
this (]uestion I wdl put the motion.
The motion is that the conferenct^ con-
cur in the sentintent that it is their be-
lief that there should be a close season.

The motion was carried.

The Chairman : Now, what will you do
witli the other resolution that was pro-
posed, for the appointment of a commit-
tee?

^Ir. Bowman: 1 move a committee be
appointed.

The Chairman: It is moved that a
Committee of Conference be appointed,
one representative from each state and
also representatives from the fishermen.

Motion carried.

The Chairman: How shall that com-
mittee be appointed?

Mr. Post: By the Chair.

The Chairman : Anticipating that per-
haps you might want me to appoint a
committee, I have prepared a list.

Dr. iSweeny : You are no politician.

The Chairman : I can see some embar-
rassment to Mr. Wilmot in connection
with an appointment on this committee,

0^

and yet ho ought to servo on this coniniit-
tee.

Mr. Wilmot: I tliink nonic otlii'r k«ii-
tleiuan liad better act in my place. I
should he happy to render any Hervice I
could. This is outside of the jurisdic-
tion in which I iiave authority.

The Chairman: I think I will ai)poii)t
Mr. Wilmot as a consulting nuMuber of
the committee. ■

Mr. Wihi' (t: Is that in a medical way,
in regard to seeing that the lish a>"e not
interfered with?

The ('hairman: Yes, your ajjpoint-
nient is in a i)urely Pickwickian sense.
1 will niipoiiit Mr. Bowman from New
York, Dr. Sweeny from ^Minnesota, Mr.
Keyes on behalf of the fishermen, Mr.
AFcDonald on Ixdialf of the fishermen,
Dr. Parker, of Michigan, Mr. ()sl)orn, of
Ohio — lie has left unforttniately, I lind.

Dr. Sweeny: .Mr. Chairman, if my col-
league, Mr. Andrus, will take my place
on that connnittce I will be very glad to
hav( him do so, because he is perfectly
familiar with all the laws, having re-
cently studied them, and he knows what
the other states liave done.

The Chairman: The Chair wiudd bt
very happy to e.veuse Dr. Sweeny if the
circumstances were not such that he
cannot do so, hi' therefore will appoint
Mr. .\:'drus as the other memlier of
that committee from (Mmo. i will sug.
gest tliat this comniittc e nniy lall an in-
formal meeting at the close of this ses-
sion, so that they may have the advan-
tage of consultation with Mi. Keyes,
who I understand is going away to-
morrow. I will also appoint Mr. (ioulil
from Maine.

Mr. Bowman: .Mr. Secretarv. 1

move

Adjourned to December 21, at 10 a. m.,
ISlti'.

AVkuxksdav, Dec. 21, 1S02, 10 \. m.

Chairman Wliitaker: The conference
will please come to order. Tlu^ special
committee that war- api)ointed last night
is not (luite ready to rejiort, an<l wi' will
leave that matter as deferred business
unti' a later i)eriod in our proceedings.

There are two or three other matters
that we can take up for consideration,
and among them 1 would call your at-
tention to the fact that the Minnesota
commissioners issueil a call for a meet-
ing of the coimui«sioners of AVisconsin,
Minnesota, North and Soutli Dakota and
.Michigan the 14th of this month, to
which, I jn-esume, many of you gentle-
men were invited. I had to decline at-
tending the meeting myself on account of
business engagements, but I wrote to Mr,
Andrus, wliocalled that meeting, that we
would be very glad to learn tlie results of
tlieirmeetingand invited him to be luire.
If it is the pleasure of the conference, I
will ask hiin to give us a resume of what
was done there.

.Mr. Andrus: Mr. ("hairman and (leii-
tleiiien — As your chairman has stated,
we had our ((inf(>rence and we l.ad as
rejiresentatives there, gentlemen from
Wisconsin and toe two Dakolas ami
Iowa. After considerable consultation,
I hail the pleasure of drafting a bill. It
was taken up and read section by sec-
tion, and adopted with some minor
aniendments, and the character of the
l)ill in reference to the protection of lish
and game in the difl'erent states inter-
ested was soineihing like this:

We lia<l a clause delining the open .-^I'a-
sons and the methods of ;:rosecntion.

that Mr. AVhitaker be a' -o ap])oiute<i a That bill is to be introduced simnitaiie

member of that comnutlee,
Motion carried.

oiisly in the ('idereut legisatures, and
they are to be asked to pass it as tl:e
game ami lish laws governing the difl'er-

The Tresident : Before 1 put the mo-
tion to adjourn, gentlemen, I want to ent states in (piosticjii.

av that t

o-morrow evening a number

We found thcii' was great unformitv

of the citizens of I'etroit have prepared oi' sentiment in regard to s|)ring shoot-
for your ciitertainmen* a baii(|Uet, and iiig. That is a matter that interests us
Iheye.Niiect each one of you gentlemen . more in those states than the matter of
to be present. We shall be rejoiced to lishing. At the same time, the tisli in-
terests wi're not lost sight of. The

Bee yi

)ii all.

53

spriiijr shooting I'l a UHo wan unaniiuoiixly
a(!(>i>t('(i as the souse of the iiu'eting.
Sj)riiii; filiootin.Lr should he aholished. A
jrood many of our sportsinen friends
feel tliat after having been shut up all
winter, they want to get out for a little
airing an<l a little shooting in the spring,
hut we were all of the oi)inion that that
sort of hutchery slionld he abolished.

The matter tiiat interested Wisconsin
partienlurly was that oi trout fishing,
and they thert' eoneluded to have an
o])en season frhm the 1st of May until
tiu' 1st of Oetoher. We didn't take any
art ion iijion the matter of the com-
nu'rcial fisheries, because it seenied to
us it should be left to this confer-
ence to recommend, and we would be
very glad to incorporate in the bill
such recoinmen<lations as are agreed
upon here. We all, however, agree that
Wisconsin and Minnesota should have a
close season on white fish and all the
lish in Lake Supcsrior. We alsoadoi)ted
the clause that theconinnttee had under
consideration last night — the returning
to the water of small fish taken in the
open season. It has been a matter of
serious difliculty in the enforcement of
the laws heretoforethat thegamedealers
of the markets who have game or fish for
sale who have been arrested declare that
it has been taken in sf)me adjoining
state, and they have thus been enabled
to evade prosecution or conviction. So
in order to get over that dirticulty, we
adoi)te<l a non-export clause in our bill,
and we believe we have it pretty tightly
seweil up.

The bill we ailoi)ted was the result of
a good deal of study, a good deal of con-
sultation overall the ditliculties we have
experienced in the jiast in the way of
prosecutions ween<leavore(l to overcome
them.

Mr. Whitaker: 1 am sure the confer-
ence apjireciate the kindiu'ss of tiu;
gentlemen rcpn'sentiug this association
in reporting to us the results of its action,
and on hciudf of the conference, 1 thaid<
Mr. ,\ndrus for his report.

Mr. HampNiu: I wouM like to iminire
* if the hill was uuule to cov«'r the entire

(piestion, or did you calculate on sepa-
rate bills?

Mr. Andrus: No, sir; the entire (|ues-
tion concerning both game and lish.
I have a <'opy of the bill with uu', so
that I can tell you anything you want
to know about the particuiars.

Mr. Hampton: You say you have a
non-export law; have you any <'lause
with reference to the sale of the game?

Mr. Andrus: Yes, sir; let me read
that clause. "No person at anytime
shall catch, take or kil', or have in his
possession or under his control any bird,
animal or tish in this stat«'— " We use
those words, "birds, animals and fish "'
in every section, knowingly, and with
the intent to cover it without specifying
each individual or kind of birds, ani-
mals or tisli. Heretofore a good numy
of the acts have simply said, " the birds
included herein," or " tlu- tish included
herein," or "herein named," ami the
penalties and nu'thods of carrying out
the law have dashed somewhat. So
we used thojse words. I will read the
whole section.

Mr. Andrus then read the section re-
ferred to.

Mr. Hampton: I would iu<|uire if you
havt^ any clause regulating the sale of
the game legally killed in the state?
What jiosition do you take in regard to
that?

Mr. Andrus: We pennit the sale in
seasons that are ojien.

Mr. Hampton: That would prevent
the sale out of season, of c<un>e, but
during the season?

Mr. Andrus: Yes, sir; that is covered.

Mr. Hampton: Is there any provision
nuide for searching a man by the game
and fish warden where there is reason to
believe or to suspe-t a man has been
poaching? Can you go through anum's
game bag?

Or. Andrus: Yes, sir; that is covered
by this section "(!rate, basket, locker or
package to be broken oi)en and tlie con-
tents examined."

Mr. Hampton: Do you sup|i(ise that
would cover a man's game bag?

Mr. Andrus: Yes, sir; we are so ail-

(

54

vised. The wonl " |»iU'ka}j;e " cdvers a
<,'()(t(I iiuiuy things.

Mr. Wilmot: >Sonit' i)t'oi)le have very
large jiockets; doeH it inchide them?

Mr. AndruH: It may be tliat it wonUl
not cover that, hut we are advised it
woidd cover even that.

^Fr. Hampton: As a matter of fact, I
have found in my own experience that
when a bhilf will hang all light you can
go through a man's lish basket orjiis
game bag, but if lie happens to be j)osted
on the hiw you are not going to do tliat.
1 believe there should be some arrange-
ment of this kind: if you have a law
covering the taking of trout under six
incites in length, I do not think you can
be sure of tho enforcement of the law
until you have an authority similiar to
the military authority exercised in the
Yellowstone Park. There a person real-
izes he is liable to be searched at any
time. AVhen an American citizen de-
l)ends upon his rights of citizenship and
will not permit a search, the ofhcer takes
his own chance of searching him until
he has taken out his search warrant and
he is pretty .secure, but if he has trout in
his pocket, and you are al)Solutely cer-
tain of it, by the time you get your war-
rant he is gone. It seems to me until
you get .something covering that your
law will bo ineff'ective.

Dr. (iould: 1 would like to ask the
gentleman from ^Minnesota if he has any
clause in his law in regard to Hsh in tran-
sit, and if so, if you have taken into con-
sideration the eflfect of the Inter-State
Commerce Act?

-Mr. Andrus: We [)ermit the shipment
of I'sh through the state, or the ship-
ment of game through the state, from
one Board of Fish or (ianie C'oinmission-
I'rs, consigned to another lioani of Com-
missioners.

Dr. (iould: 1 had reference to contra-
band goods.

Mr. Andrus: We Hci/c them in our
state, and make the owner prove they
•ire lawful.

Dr. Gould: We have had a good deal
of trouble in Maine, poachers relying on
the Inter-State Commerce Act.

Mr. Andrus: We have had a decision
on that point by the Supreme Court.
Any game that is unlawfully taken is
contraband, and is not subject to the In-
ter-State Commerce Act. That is l\w
Su[)reme Court decision of Arkansas,
Illinois, Massachusetts an<l Kansas. The
point was raised that a man had juris-
diction over his own i)roperty ))y reason
of th(i Inter-State Commerce Act, but
the Supreme (Courts have said the prop-
erty was not his own and was not sub-
ject to the law in that way.

The Conference instructed me to have
a few copies of that act priute(,l and dis-
tributed. We adopted a fish shutedause,
and we took the Illinois law bodily.

That is a matter that interests us more
particularly.

Mr. Whitaker: The difficulty with fish
shutes in this state is the loose way it is
left to be enforced. It is practically a
dead letter. It now requires a jH'tition
of twelve freeholders to the board of su-
pervisors, and they order it in their dis-
cretion.

Mr. Andrus : The control of the navi-
gable streams where fish are, and where
dams are erected, is wholly under tlu?
control of the Board of Game and Fish
Commissioners in our state, and in this
bill it will be jtut under the same con-
trol. This bill authorizes the fish com-
missioners to compel the building of a
Hsh way, and the penalty of non-i)er-
formance is ten dollars a day for not to
exceed 25 days for each day's omLssion,
after the proper legal notification has
been given.

Mr. Gould: We have a similar law to
that in Maine, ami we have foun<l it
worked very nicely. During the past
two years the mill owners have volun-
teered to i»ut in the lish ways.

Mr. Andrus: In Minnesota waters we
have put in something likeHhirty-.seven
lish ways during the past year that had
not existed before.

Mr. Whitaker: What tisli pass do you
list- ?

Mr. Andrus: We useanythingadaptecl
to the stream. We do not use any par-
ticular form. The Fish Commissionei*

56

of Iowa, Mr. (^raigs, lias a plan of his
own wliicfi ('f)mniends itself to my jndfr-
mcnt as beiuf^ the most feasihle and
least expensive of any.

Mr. Whitakcr: Is it i)atented?

-Mr. Andnis: No, sir; it is not ))atent-
t'd. The la> piovi(l(!s that we shall not
he ((tnipelled to use any patenti'il de-
vice.

Mr. Wilmot: Wc have one that was
introductfd of late that 8uper.«edes any-
Ihini; we have before seen. And if any
f?entlcman of this eonferencte is desirous
of jiettinfj; the latest ini]»rovements in
this line, 1 should Ite most hapi)y to send
him a plan of the same, and, if jjossihle,
to send a model.

Mr. W'litaker: Is it the Hoekin way?

3Ir. Wilmot: Yes; it is the Hoekin.

Mr. Whitaker: And a very jjood (me,
too.

Mr. Wilmot: Yes; it is a very good
one. We consider it the very best we
have ever seen.

Mr. Whitaker : I will say the Michigan
Fish Commission will make an applica-
tion now for a plan. We are now con-
sidering the (piestion of the adoption of
a new fish-way.

Mr. Wilmot: Then I will re(|Uest yo\i
to drop me a line at Ottawa, as it may slip
my memory, but if you will semi me a
letter, I will see that you are sent a
mudel.

Mr. Hampton: One other trouble in
Michi^ran has been, as tlu' chairman has
related, that the law provides that the
Fish Commissioners shall furnis i county
clerks and those \\\u) apply, drafts and
plans of the tlsh ways, and we have as
yet no plan of fish way that would be
suitable to our streama. I believe that
Dr. Parker, on different occasions, has
made that answer to me, that they are
I'dt adapted to ditlerent stages of water.
I am interested in this subject, although
it is not in my department. It is left to
the board of supervisiu-s of the diflerent
counties instead of the (iameand Fish
Warden. In nninv cases a (isli way
would have been ;i opted if there had
been a way the Fish Commissioners
could recoinntend.

Mr. Sweeny: In Minnesota they have
a variety of ways of making these shutes,
one of which is to put in the bottom of
the stream a lot of brush, and upon it
erect a dam to control the waters. The
tish have an opportunity to get up over
that 1)rush.

Dr. Parker: In Michigaa thediflicnlty
has been in regard to the varying stages of
water. It is easy enough to make a lisli
way that would run nicely enough at
one stage of water. It has been success-
ful where there has been a particular
stage of water, but you come to pile on
top of that, at a time when tish are run-
ning most, four or five feet of water, and
you have the conditions entirely
changed. On that account we haven't a
tish shnte that we can recommend for
every case in which itmight be desirable
to put in a shute.

Mr. Wilmot : The tish way now con-
structed by the Donnnion (iovernment
is a most efficient one, and is quite the
reverse of what the old ones were. The
entrance of the tish way is at the foot of
the structure, and it empties itself up in
the middle of the mill i»ond. The didi-
culty hitherto has been that the end of
the pass has been wiy down somewhere,
where the fish will not enter it, they
come u]) under the dam, where they are
destroyed. The entrance should be right
by the dam itself, and they are generally
placed below.

Mr. Whitaker: There is no question
about that. The exi)erience, I think, of
every one who has had occasion to in-
vestigate fish ways is that the discharge
end is at the wrong place. The fish will
run up to the apron of the dam, and as
a rule, this is quite a ways from where
the fish ways usually are, and they <lo
not get up the fish way at all. The stat-
utes of this state i)rovide<l, because they
w(>re passed something like 1") or 20 years
ago -how long ago is it. Dr. Parker?

Dr. Parker: I think it is seventeen
years ago.

Mr. Whitaker (continuing): That the
lioanl of Fish ('ommissioners should
adopt some suitable fish way, and pub-
lish a certain numher of lithographed

50

copies, HiilHcient to lile with every town-
HJiip clerk. Tiiat was done. But, as all
township records are subject to so inanv
chancres by chan^Jie of clerks, 1 prosunic
they were lost or destroyed.

I'mloiibtedly at the time tliis fish way
was adopted it was tiie best then con-
structed. It is the old Shaw iisli way,
but I do not think it is of any acicount
at all. The Michifjan Hoard of Fish
(V)nunissioners liave had application
from certain mend)ersof the Legislature,
I tliink for the last tliree or four ses-
sions, to suffgest laws that will compel
lish ways to be put in. We iiave taken
a very small interest in the matter as a
commission, because the only thing we
<'ould do was tosav there is the Shaw lish
way, the only one we can put in. It is
of little account, and we have no means
of securing another. Mr. Rogers has a
fisii way, J believe, that is well sj)oken
of. 1 bilieve there is one in the Hud-
son Hiver at Troy. The trouble with
Mr. Rogers' shute is that it is too expen-
sive for even the State of Michigan un-
der any circumstances. The only places
where tish ways can be ])ut in will be
where dams have been swept out and
must be replaced, or where new ones are
being c(mstructed.

Mr. Wilmot: In regard to this subject
of lish ways I would like to say a word,
for it is a matter of vital importance
w ith reganl to the j)reservation and pro-
l)agation of lish. The mill dams have
l)een found throughout our country and
I tldnk, tliroughout the United States,
one of tlie principal barriers to tlie fish
going up to their breeding grounds.

I may state in regard to this pass 1
iuxve reference to that it consumes less
water than any other we have had ex-
perience v.itli. The outlet at the lower
end of the dam need not be a hole of
more tlian three or four inches, and the
pressure of water from that three or
four inciies is no greater than where it
enters at the iiead of tlie dam, (ifty or a
liundred or, perliaps, one hundred and
lifty feet furtiier up. The tish can swim
through without any obstruction what-
ever.

])r. I'arkt^-: Have you tried it prac-
tically so tiiat you know it is successful.
Have you seen iish ])ass through ?

^Ir. Wilmot: The government re-
ferred tiie matter to me, and 1 said 1
would give no opinif)n on a fish shute,
as I had seen so many of tliem tiiat
were worthless, unless 1 luul o(!idiir
demonstration of tlieir success. 1 sent
an efhcient and trusty man to go there
and watch this i)ass, and lie reports h<'
saw them go up.

Dr. Parker: Thej miglit do tluit under
favorable circumstances. Tlie Shaw jiass
worked perfectly with the model we
lia<l, but wiien we put it in a dam where
the water was greater in volume the
whole thing was changed.

Mr. Wilmot: This was put in the dam
itself, and was found to work perfectly.
And I wish to say in this connection
that Mr. Hawkins sent me sworn state-
ments of tish wardens who liad iiad
charge of this lisli way on difl'erent
streams, with the number of fish pass-
ing up, so that it seems to be a perfect
success.

Mr. Bowman : The special committee

that was appointed last night is reatly

to report, and begs leave to submit tiie

following:

Detroit, Dec. 21st, iSy2.
To the Fishi'ries CaiifcrcHCC :

Gentlemen— Your committee, to whom was
referred the <|ue.stiou, " whether or not there
should be a close season for white fish, lake or
salmon trout and herring-," also what means
should be taken for their protection, would re-
port :

ist. All small fish and those unfit for food of
all kinds when taken in nets, should be replaced
in the water where taken alive, and that fisher-
men should not be allowed to take such fish un
shore, nor expose them for sale.

2nd. That no string pound of nets used in the
lakes shall extend more tlriii four miles from
shore.

3rd. That one-half part of all channels be-
tween islands or elsewhere where fisli iiiigrnte
to .spawn, shall be kept free from nets of all kinds
at all seasons.

■Ith. That all white fish taken of less than
sixteen inches in length, and all salmon trout
less than two pounds in weight shall be imme-
diately returned to the waters where taken and
shall not be exposed for sale. That all herring
less than eight inches in length, and all wall-
eyed pike less than twelve inches in leiigtli,

m

shall l)c returned to the waters where taken and
shall not be exposed for sale.

5th. That the month of Novemberin each year
be made a clo.se season in all the great lakes for
white fish, herring and salmon or lake trout.

Your committee would further recommend
that all penalties fixed for violations of any laws
that shall be enacted shall be made not only to
ajjply to those i«-ho take fish, but also to all per-
sons who buy, sell, transport or have the same
in possession.

The ist, 2nd, 3rd and 4th recommendations
were unanimously adopted by your committee.

Tlu' fifth recoiuiiuMidation, makinj? the

month of Novemberin each yearaoloHe

season for wliite fish, salmon trout and

herring was adopted, all the members

voting " aye " except Mr. Keyes, from

Oliio, who voted in the negative.

Ri'solved. That the law should authorize the
seizure and destruction of nets used in violation
of law.

Mr. Ani«den: Was any consideration
taken of tlie size of mesh in gill nets?

Mr. Bowman : No, that was not con-
§iden;d. No recommendation was made
by the ccjmmittee in that regard at all.

Mr Sweeny: 1 move its adoption.

Dr. Gould: I will second it.

Mr. Speed: I would suggest, in speak-
ing of the length of net, four miles from
shore, that tliat should be amended;
that when one net is set another shall
not be set at a certain distance, or they
will evade the law.

Mr. Keyes : 1 will say that my idea of
the distance from shore was not to pre-
vent iish from running, but to leave a
channel open for a large proportion of
the fish to pass by. I do not think it
makes any diflerence whether you have
nets set close to one another or not.

Mr. Whitaker: 1 do not tpiite under-
stand it, and 1 would like to have that
portion of the report read again.

The Secretary read the portion of the
report as reijuested.

Mr. Keyes: That does not cover my
idea at all. My idea was that it should
not be permitted beyond a distance of
four miles. I think the phraseology <ioes
not express the idea. I think the com-
mittee meaiLS that the gang siiould not
be more than four miles long.

Mr. Huntington: I move then that it

be amended to read "that no pound net
shall extend more than four miles from
the shore."

Till' motion was duly seconded.

Mr. Keyes: I understand then that
the motion is to change " that all pound
nets used on the lakes shall not be more
than four miles in length including lead-
ers," to read this way, " that all pound
nets used in the lakes shall not extend
more than four miles from shore." That
would virtually prohibit all fishing with
leaders outside of the four-mile limit.

The Chairman: Gentlemen, are there
any remarks on the amendment?

Mr. Green : 1 think it would be. well to
designate the length of a leader. That
the wiiole length of the net shall be four
miles, and that the leader shall not be
more than four miles f >m shore. The
way it is now, a man miglit construct
a net 20 miles long and not have a leader
four miles froiu shore.

Mr. Keyes: It is absolutely impossi-
ble to fish parallel with the shore. They
can only tish at right angles with the
shore.

Mr. Amsden: Why not include gill
nets in this clause?

Mr. Keyes : I am in favor of absolutely
prohibiting gill netting. 1 will tell you
that right here.

Mr. Wilmot: I think it is a very good
thing that this (piestion has been brought
up. Some say you cannot fish parallel
with the shore, but at the mouth of
rivers and in bays nets ari^ set at right
angles to the shore, and it forms a very
destructive engine for taking fish.

Mr. IJowman: 1 tiiiiik most of the fish-
ing at the jnoutii of rivers is done by gill
nets.

The Chairman: Tlic Chair is prepared
to entertain any amemlment, if any is
desired to this report. The report now
is in the hands of the conference.

Mr. I'ost: It is easy enough to add the
clause with reference to the length of
leaders.

Mr. Keyes: That is all right, but I
will ask wiiich one of you gentlemen
know how long a leader ought to be?

.Mr. Post : I say add the clause that the

58

loader should not be more than four
miles long.

Mr. Andrns. I will ofl'er an amend-
ment that all pound nets shall not ex-
(!eed four miles in length including lead-
ens.

Mr. Amsden: Then the amendments
AVouM read, "That all pounds nets used
in tiie lakes shall not extend more than
four miles from the shore, and all pound
nets used on the lakes shall not be more
than four miles long, including leaders.

Mr. Keyes: I Wduld leave that last ofi",
because nobody ever fished with a lead-
er four miles long, or one mile long, or
a quarter mile long, hardly.

Dr. Gould: What would be the ob-
jection to it then? It would be harm-
less.

Mr. Keyes: It is simply irrelevant,
that is all. They would think we didn't
understand our business.

Mr' Whitaker : It seems to me you are
embaria.ssing the whole thing by ampli-
fying it. I would, however, suggest that
the word "string" be put in instead of
the words " pound nets."

The amendment was then put to the
conference an<l unanimously carried.

The resolution as amended was then
unanimously adopted.

The Chairman : The next matter to be
discussed is close seasons fo» brook trout,
grayling, California trout, brown trout,
J.och Lcven trout, land-locked salmon
and small-mouthed ba.ss. I think there
is no objection to the close season now
in force for all those fish, unless it be
black bass. Mr. Bowman, have you any
close season for black bass in New York ?

Mr. Bowman: I am not certain about
that. I will look it up. Yes. For black
bass, or Oswego bass, the close season is
between thelirstday of January and the
first day of May.

Mr. Andrus: In Minnesota it is from
the first day of December until the fif-
teenth of May.

Mr. Whitaker: I think we have a close
season in Michigan.

Mr. Hampton : There is a ♦•lose sea-
son, although they can be taken at any
time with a iiook and line. The only

close jeason lain regard to spearing, an<l
that is practically nugatory.

Mr. Wilmot: In Canada that would
be perfectly useless. The fifteenth of
June is our ending, but we find even
that is too early. We shouhl extend it
to the first day of July. The black bass
recpiires a longer season; it is so solicit-
ous of its egg and of its young. The
parent fish remains with its young for
some time after they are hatched, hence
it is my experience as a close observer
of these things generally, that the close
season should extend to the first day of
July.

Mr. Whitaker: I want to say that, so
far as the American waters are concerned,
at the St. Clair Flats there is litth^ fish,
ing done before the 15th of June, and
those that are taken are usually taken ofi"
the spawning beds, and their flesh is in-
sipid and of no account. I had as soon
have a piece of bob veal as to have a
black bass that is caught, for instance, at
the Put-in-Bay Islands in May or June.

They are tasteless, and if the limit is
fixed it seems to me it ought to be not
later than the loth of June. .Fudge
Speed is much interested in the ])ro})ii-
gation of fish and their protection, and
no doubt the conference would be glad
to hear from him.

Judge Speed : I don't know as I have
anything to say in addition to wiiat
other gentlemen have said. But I think
spearing ought to be stopped more than
fishing by any other means. There is a
gentleman here from Chatham w'^' wu-
speaking of fishing over in Mitchell's
Bay. Similar conditions, I think, pre-
vail on our side. Mitchell's Bay is a
part of what is called St. Clair Flats, not
fj ■ from Chatham. The fish run in
there in weter that is not more than
three or four feet deep, where you can
see the bdttom readily at any time, and
where they lay their eggs, stay there for
a time, and watch them, and they go
there, on our side at any rate, and spear
in large numbers, because they can see
them readily and get at them. They go
there as early in the spring as they can
go and continui' s|)earing right along.

69

It oiijrlit to he stoi»pc'd because the large
iimul>ert)f thone fish caught there are
ahiioHt useless for any purpose. In ad-
flition to that they troll on those
grounds, and large numberH of fish are
canght in tiiat way. They troll with
fpoon hooks and also witii minnows, and
they catch Hsh as late as July on those
spawning grounds. Then they are just
coniniencing to run off in deep water —
between the l")th of June and the 1st of
July. Very many of the (ish are large,
and I would like to see that sort of
thing stopped, if it is possible, or the
taking of any kind of fish on spawning
grounds. I would H>: the period as late
as the loth of June, rather than the 1st
of June or the loth of May, because tlien
you would insure the stopping of fishing
on those spawning grounds. Of course,
in some waters you can fix the period
much earlier, but in our water they
spawn late in the season.

I was not present yesterday, but I am
very sorry to learn that the conference
adopted a resolution limiting the taking
of fish by the weight rather than the
size. Because I think you will find in
this state, and I think too, in Canada,
that all (juestions of fact must go to a
jury, and when you come to submit that
(luestion to a jury, you will find that
the weigiit of fish is so hard to determine
that tliey will find in favor (»f the party
complained of. If j'ou fix on the size of
fish you have something at which they
can get at. Almost anybody can tell the
length of a fish within one or two inches
by sight, but not so by weight. You
never have scales present, and you leave
a loop hole where many peoi)le escape.
If you fix the size of fish, and say tliat
fish of a certain length, no matter what
it weighed, it shall go back in th? water,
you fix something that will be definite,
and almost any one can determine it
with the eye. If you fix it by weight,
the (juestion will be asked before the
jury, "Did you have any scales? Do
you know anything about the v.'eight of
tluit fisii?" And you will find any
(pumtity of fish will ^o to the market
on weight, where you can very readily

determine by the eye on size. It may
be arbitrary, because one fish of a cer-
tain length will weigh more than an-
other fish of a certain length, but you
arrive at it close enough for all practical
purposes, for the purpose of conviction,
and that is what you want to get at.

Mr. Hampton: I believe that sugges-
tion is a wise one, for I have; found it so
in practical experience, and I think it
would be well to reconsider that (|ue.s-
tion "ud submit an amendment that
will cover the weight as'well as the size
desired.

Judge Speed: No white fish of less
than twelve or fifteen or twenty inches
in length, whatever you may determine
upon, and then you will iiave .something
definite upon which to go.

Mr. Wilmot: Allow nie to suggest as
the conference is going down to Sand-
Wa-Ii hatchery they might have ocular
demonstration of the length of fish, be-
cause there are a number of white fish
there, and we might better come to a
conclusion as to the right length of fish.
I perfectly agree with the gentleman.

Judge Speed: You can get at it by
taking a number of fish and weighing
tiiem, and then determine their length,
and you will fin<l they won't vary an
inch. There is then something al)so-
lutely certain to go upon, and fish less
than fifteen inches in length shall not
be taken under any circumstances.

.Mr. Hampton: In order to bring the
matter up I move you that we recon-
sifler the report of the committee on the
size of white fish taken.

Mr. Hampton's UKjtion was seconiled
and unanimously adopted.

Dr. Parker: 1 move you this (juestion
be postponed until af*^"r we return fnjiii
our trip down the river, so that we can
there determine as to the proper length
of fish, unless we can determine right
here. Perhaps Mr. Keyes could tell us.
What we want to get is the length of the
pound-and-a-half fish.

Mr. Whitaker: I will ask Mr. (^raig,
who is a practical fisherman, to give us
some information on this point.

Mr. Craig: I should think fourteen

iiu'hos SI f^ood lonjjtli of white fish; I
flhoiiM not tliink it would ^o fifteen
inciieH — that is, tlie length of a white
fiwh that would weigh a pound and a half

Mr. Keyes: I think, ahout fourteen or
fifteen inches.

Mr. Hampton: 1 move you tiien to
strike out the words " pound and a half,"
where they occur in the resolution, and
substitute " fifteen inches."

Mr. Whitaker: It seems to me it would
he a very easy matter to determine the
length of a pouhd and a half fish. Mr.
Craig can do it. T don't think the live
fish down there are of that weight.

Mr. Keyes: J guess there are very lew
Detroit river fish that will weigh two
j)ounds.

]Mr. Whitaker: Yes, we have .sold our
catch on the; average of two and a-half
pour. is. TVe Iiave sold our entire catch
to dealers of fish, caught on the Detroit
river, at two and a half pounds weight,
the weight being the averaged.

Mr. Keyes: That is bigger than they
catch them now.

Dr. Parker: I desire the resolution
laid on the table. It would be a good
ol)ject lesson ; we might learn something
about the weight of fisii by taking some
practical oljservations down there.

Mr. Whitaker : AVhat would be the ob-
jection to the appointment of a com-
mittee of three to determine that ques-
tion and report to us immediately upon
our return. The chair will entertain
such a motion.

It was moved and sui)ported that such
a committee be .appointed. Duly car-
ried.

Judge Si)eed : I think, gentlemen, you
will probably find from experience that
wall-eyed pike, of which large numbers
are sent here from Saginaw Bay, and
perhaps other localities, a great many of
them are smaller in sizv , and you will
have to adopt a difl'erent rule in regard
to them than to white fish. You should
make a diflerence in weight in regard to
those fish as well as a diflerence n size.

Mr. Whitaker: It would certainly be
a good idea, and another thing that es-
caped me at the time: it might be a

question, under a prosecution, whetiier
it was the weight of a dressed fish f)r the
weight of a green fish. The Cliair will
appoint on that committee, to rejiort at
once on our return, Dr. Parker, Judge
S}>eed and Dr. Sweeny.

Judge Speed : I don't think I can visit
the hatchery.

Mr. Whitaker: I will then appoint
Mr. Wilraot. The committee will con-
sider that matter and report immediate-
ly upon our return.

Is there anything further to be done
with these resolutions?

Mr. Keyes: I would like to offer an
amenement to the report of the special
committee. I move you that all gill net
fishing be prohibited in a less depth of
water than 80 feet in all waters.

Mr. Hampton: For the sake of having
that so we can consider it, I support the
amendment, and move that it lie on the
table until the other matters come U]>.

Mr. Keyes: The reason I made that
motion is that I did not think it would
come up before this conference at all,
but I am very firmly of the opinion that
gill net fishing, as practiced now on all
the lakes, is a great destructive force in
fitihing. As Mr. Wilmot here has said,
he has seen gill net fishing in the pro-""
tected waters of Canada, whicli is a fair
sample of protection, and in the ileor-
gian Bay, and when they take up those
nets the fish are absolutely putrid in
the nets, dropping from the nets almost
as they lift them up, and on tlie feeding
grounds where they fish, and wherever
fish live during the summer, when they
are not on their spawning grounds, the
fish taken are unfit for market, and but
a small portion of Ihem is consumed.
Their talk about one night out for nets is
all right, but the gill nets are usually out
three or four nights, and the fish that
run in first are the fish that are almost
decayed. In 80 feet of water I am in fa-
vor of absolute prohibition, and the gill
nets should be kept off the reefs which
are the spawning grounds of the wiiite
fish, herring, black bass and other fish of
that kind. .\t present they go on these
reefs and they set their gill nets across

01

tlu! luoiiMiH of rivers ami l)ays, aiuli'vcry
place whore fish run at any season of the
year. Tlie fish are praetioally {;iven no
rest whatever from the beginning of the
season to the end. My opinion is that
tlie ^'ill nets are the greatest engine of
destruction tliat we have on the great
chain of lakes. Lake Erie is the last lake
in the chain where gill netting is being
carried on. Nearly all the other lakes
had been depleted of fish before gill net-
ting })ecanie popular, and until within
tlie lasl. two or three years it was con-
lined to the eastern end of the lake.
There was very little gill netting west of
Cleveland. It was all done in Pennsyl-
vania waters. The reason for this was
because tliey could not set trap nets and
catch fish in apropei way. The water is
so deep and f;o exposed to storms and
currents that only a limited amount of
lisli couhl be taken in trap nets, and con-
Ke(iuentlv, they excused themselves by
saying, if you prohibit our gill netting
we cannot lisii at all. They do not claim
that the fish are fit for market, but they
do go on the market, and they answer
the purpose. If gill netting can be pro-
liibited on the reefs and shoal water.", and
permitting tlie fish to get on the reefs at
the proper time, you will do more, in my
judgment, towards protecting the fisli in
tile waters of tlie lakes than by any other
j resolution you maybe able to pass. I
V^hink it will be far ahead of the close sea-
sons, except you made an absohito close
season from the first day of January un-
til the 31st day of December. Of course
that would help tlit; fisii. Fish might be
taken f(^r the benefit of the farmers.
They are no benefit to the people; the
(juestion is to take them when they are
most beneficial to tiie people, and when
tliey can be given to them in the most
healthy condition. The Hoards of Health
of the various states have investigated
this matter, and with one accord they
JKive said that fisii thus taken are abso-
lutely unwholesome as food. I venture
to say there is not a single dealer, either
catcher or handler of fish, who will say
to this association that if he could get

piMind net fish, he would not take gill
net fish under any circumstances.

The large i)roduct of gill net fishing,
especially in the Canadian waters, out-
side of Lake Erie, and also in the iipi)er
lakes, on the American side, until recent
years, was a salted product. The mar-
kets were not open to them in the fresh
condition. Consequently they took them
in great numbers and salted them. They
salted all kinds of fish, and the consumer
was thereby deceived, as he, of course,
could nf»t know what the condition of
the fish was when it was salted. He sup-
posed he was getting a fresh article,
when in fact he was getting a fish that
the fisherman would not eat, when taken
from the nets, on his table. There is
not a man who is practically engageil in
the business but what will say there isn't
one fish out of ten taken in gill nets that
he would eat, especially in the summer.
There is a prejudice against gill net fish,
and they are put on the market at the
worst season of the year. They are
caught in the summer months, and they
are placed upon the market very seldom
in good condition. The fish are con-
stantly harassed upon their breeding
grounds all summer, and I am suri' that
it tends to destroy fisli much more than
when taken toward the end of the
spawning season. Of course any sort of
curtailing of fishing will assist in the re-
production. I don't care what y<»u do
to aid that.

In speaking about angling for black
bass. The black bass has been exter-
minated by angling more than by any-
thing else, in my judgment, and I think
that is the opinion of all the fishermen
in our locality at least. I do not exi)ect
it will ever be possible t<j get law: i)assed
whicli will i)revent gill netting, i)ut if
you could get laws passed limiting that,
it woidd go a long ways toward the pro-
action of fish. As long as that system is
.. limited, and they can .string their nets
from shore to shore on any lake, it is ut-
terly useless in my mind, as a i)ractical
fisherman, to undertake to i)rotect lisli
by making a close season of the time of

,\\

62

Hpiiwiiiiij:. Don't niKlcr.stiUnl nic to ^<uy
that will not licli) to protec^t fish. Oi
course anytliinj; tlint stops their eatcii-
iiiji;, will help to protect them, Imt if yon
CI mid stop jjrill netting on the reefs, and
that is where they go to set the gill nets,
es|)ecially in the spawning time, yon
would go a long ways towards protecting
the fish. Take Georgian Bay, that is a
great body of water, t)ut I make this
proposition now, that with idl the pro-
tection that tlie (/'anadian laws afford if
gill netting is permitted in Georgian
Bay, in less than five years they will be
scarcer there than they are in T^ake
Erie.

Mr. Craig: I did not come here to say
a word, but there is one thing that has
been mentioned that I am, perhai)s, a
crank on, an<l that is tiie fouling of our
waters. F tliink if we in Michigan had
kei)t our waters as clear as they have
been kept in (Jeorgian Bay, we would
have white fisii on the spawning grounds
just as we had thirty years ago. Speak-
ing about gill netting on Georgian Fiay,
there are men there to-day who I dealt
with forty years ago -I met them here
five or six years ago, and they have used
the gill nets right ahmg. I do not be-
lieve the gill nets are s»ich poisonous
affairs. I have .sold more gill net fish
tiian any other kind. If a tish gets foul
he goes on the oftal heap. I do not
know whether we have laws to prevent
saw dust from being thrown in the lake,
but if we have they are not enforced.
It is destroying and driving off many of
our fish.

Mr. Keyes: I would like to ask you
one (juestion : What in your opinion has
flestroyed the white fish in Lake Supe-
rior? There is no saw dust thrown in
the water there ?

Mr. Craig: There has never been big
fishing in Lake Superior, except at
White Fish Point, where Booth ct Com-
pany are establishing their fishing nets.
I have tried fishing there. It is a very
deep lake, and the only place you can
set gill nets is where it comes up shoal.

Mr. Keyes: I would like to ask Mr.
Craig if he would eat a gill net fish that

h(^ has haided In, if it comes up stiff in
the net?

-Mr. Craig: Well, I don't kn<»w. Yes,
I guess, i)erhaps, I would.

Mr. Wilmot: Pardon me if you please
one moment. I am intruding upon you
too much, but the subject that has been
touche<l upon by the gentleman, I think
it is <h(sirable to make further mention
of, and that is saw dust. There can he
nothing more destructfve of fish than
the depositing of saw dust in the rivers
and lakes Wherever vegetation of any
kind is sto))ped at the bottom of the
water, there fish life is also arrested. In
fact the origin and the production of
almost everything extant is vegetable
life. I'pon land where there is no vege-
tation then^ is no animal life. In waters
where there is no vegetation tlu're is no
fish life. If you '>ut on the bottom of
the waters a foreign sultstance like saw
dust, vegetable life is stopped, and coii-
secjuently insect growth is stopjted and
consecpiently fish life is stopped. Min-
ute Crustacea of various kinds are fed
U|»on the juices of these plants, which
feed the smaller fish, and in turn the
larger fish feeil upon the smaller.

Mr. Keyes: I want to ))eg your indul-
gence, as I have to go away, but if the
gentlemen of this conference will take
up the ((uestion of gill netting, I would
like to have them ask the Buffalo Fish
Co., of this city — which has a branch
house here, and they are as larg(> a fish
concern as there is in the Cnlted States,
and fish in all waters— I would like to
ask their opinion as to the merchantable
and eatable (pialitiesof the ordinary fish
that are caught in gill nets or trap nets.
Don't understand me to say that all (ish
caught in gill nets are bad. Not by any
means. The fish that is alive is proba-
bly good enough to eat, though I never
saw one in my life l)ut what was in a cer-
tain degree l)loatetl. I would like to have
you gentlemen ask the Bnff'alo Fish Co.,
or anybody that has been with them any
length of time, how the fish comi)are
with pound net fish in their business?
Which fish can they sell on the market
the best? Which fish carries the best,

68

and vvhicli linli gots to the conranier iii
till! Ix'Ht Hliiiin", ill their ojiininn as deal-
ers ill lisii? They aiv nut cutchorH, 1
bulifvo, to any lar^,'!' extent. I lielicve
they are simply buyers of lisli, aithoutth
they (1(» li.sii,of course. If there are any
other K»"itlt^ineti liere, I ilun't know as
th(>re are, who art* enpijred in tiie liusi-
ness, 1 would like them In answer. Of
(tourse, if u man is eii;jaK»-'d in jjill nett-
ing lio won't a<lniit these things. He has
liis money in it, hut if he is en;;ai»ed in
Itolh systems he will atlinit it in il9 eases
out of a 100, and he will also tell you
to what extent the gill netting from
sprinj,' to fall is praeticed in the northern
lakes. It is not so mueh j)ra('ti('ed in the
wattira of \Aikv lOrie, because the waters
are warm, conse([uently theygouj) north ;
but you catch tish in warm weather and
they very soon decay wImmi they are ex-
posed to the sun, and that is the reason
why gill netting i.s not practiced in the
upper end of Lake Krie in the summer
months.

.Mr. Wilmot: I am afraid I am intrud-
ing, but wlien I hear arguments of this
kind I feel it my duty to put liefore this
confeivnce the knowledge I have on this
point. We have been taking the evi-
<lence of the agents of the Buffalo Fish
(/'ompany on Georgian Bay and on J^ake
Huron, an<l those agents tell us they
get better fish and hirger tish in the gill
nets than tliey do in the pound nets, for
this reason, and it is a very rational one:
The gill nets liave meshes of five inches
and they get only tlie large fish, and
they find that the large fish are the more
marketable fish in marketthan thesmall-
er lish. There is no doubt the tish are
not as sound from the gill nets as they
arc from the pound nets, but the i)ound
net as now used is far more destructive
than the gill net.

On motion of Mr. Hampton the reso-
lutions before the house were laid on the
table until the reassemliling this after-
noon.

The Chairman then read an itivitation
from Mr. Frank Clark, of Northville,
Mich., to visit the hatcheries there, ))ut

because of lack of time it could not be
accj'pted.

Mr. (ioiildjof Maine: l have drawn u|>
a resolution here that 1 would like to
place before the conference for their con-
sideration on tlu' subject of uniformity
of laws.

H'tirrrax, The difTereiit state fish aii<l jfaiiie
commissions are more in touch with the Inws
(ii>d their defects throughout the entire state
where they may hold ofTice ; and,

ll'hi'i ni.\, Their knowledjfe of the general ri-
ciuirements in a given instance is greater than
that of the laity at large ; and,

IVhereas, By reason of their office and intimate
knowledge of the needs, they are called upon to
make suggestions during legislative session ;

h'rsolvi'd, That in the opinion of the Interna-
tional Fisheries Confi-rcnce it is plainly the duty
of the state commissioners to make sucli recom-
mendations to their respective state legislatures
as their experience in the practical workings of
their laws regulating tlie taking of fish may dic-
tate.

A'cjo/z/^'rf, That tlie states are fully competent
to make wholesome laws for the ])iotectioii of
their fish and game,

Kesolved, Further, that where in any case from
lack of intimate knowledge of the habits or the
place in the economy of natureof any given spe-
cies of fish, occupies the commissioners shall
advocate such restrictive legislation as will
leave no doubt as to its efficacy until such inves-
tigation has been made as will enable them to
give intelligent recommeddations on the sub-
ject.

Mr. Post: I will support the resolu-
tion.

The motion was put and unanimously
adopted.

Or. Sweeny: I wish to present the fol-
lowing resolution :

Resolved, That it is the judgment of this con-
ference there should be a close season for bass
and that such season should be between the ist
of April and the 15th of June, and all kinds of
fishing.includiugspeariug, should be prohibited
in the close season.

Mr. Wilmot: The proper season should
l)e from the 1st of May to the Ist of July.

Mr. Hampton : There is one thing that
seems to be overlooked, and that is the
getting of something that the legisla-
tures will ndopt. The recommendations
you })ass upon will have no force with
them. The Fish Commissioners know
something about the efforts necessary to

64

J

iiifluciu'i! the li'KiHlatoi-H, lUid I HUggcst
tliiit you make tlie clcmc hi'IIHou hh rt'ii-
Hoiuil)!*' as poHHiblo.

Mr. Wliitttkcr: Let tnc Hay one word
inn'ply. Il'tlifn' is unytliiiiK tliat oiijrlit
to liavc iiitliu'iici' witli a IcjtiHlatiin" it \h
tlic opinion of this (Hniferciu'c. It waw
(•uIUmI into cxistcnco ))y tlic authority of
till! Province of Ontario, and tiiis in a
continuation of those ineetin>,'8. It seems
to me the re<'oniniendation of the repre-
sentatives of the (UH'erent states, calh'd
upon to meet and dis(!UHS these tiuestions,
certainly ou;iiit to liave some force he-
f(tre a k'^ishiture.

Mr. Ainsden: I am rather inclined to
think this conference had hetter leave
tliat question alone. I think if we take
uji the Hsh of the great lakes here and
give our attention to them we shall ac-
complish all we can expect. The dis-
trihution of hlack hass covers so much
territory, and there are such diffi-rences
in temperature, and they vary so in
time of their spawning season, I rather
think we hadn't better try to pass any
such resolution. Better leave out the
hlack bass. It is the dearest lish to me
there is, and I think their domestic
habits are so much to be admired that
we cannot do too much to protect them,
but at the same time I think we had bet-
ter leave that alone.

Mr. Wilmot: Our Dominion Govern-
ment covers se\*eral states, and we have
taken the trouble to ascertain from
these different states, which include
Ontario, (^nebec, Manitoba, Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick, about their spawn-
ing habit, and we find there is very lit-
tle deviation at all in regard to tlieir
spawning periods in the different waters.
We find that the black bass, as a rule,
almost invariably spawns in all tliese
waters during the months of May and
June, more i)articularly the latter end of
May and the beginning of June. But as
previously remarked this fish is so soli-
citous of its eggs, and its young, that it
remains longer in the act of spawning
and taking care of its young than any
other fish, and tlierefore, the months of
May and June should hea<lopted as the

proj)er close season. I do ntit think you
could get a better period than May and
June. If yon commence earlier than
that you infringe; on the angler too
much, and if yon allow Ihem to be taken
from the loth of June to the 1st of .inly
you interfere with the parent fish in the
care of its young. I speak from an ex-
perience of thirty or forty years.

Mr. Whitaker: We will now vote on
the resolution.

Kesoli'fd, Th.Tt ill the jiulgineiit of this confcr-
encf there should be n clo.se season for black
bass and that such .season should be between
the ist of April and the i.sth of June, and all
kinds of fishing, includiux spearin^r, slioiild be/
prohibited in the clo.se season. f

\ vote was taken and the rescdution
was adoi)ted.

TIh' conference then took a recess until
4 p. m.

Wednksdav, Dee. :ilst, 4 v. m.

(Chairman Whitaker: The conference
will please come to order. I will ask Mr.
Bowman to perform the functions of pre-
siiling officer, as it becomes necessary
for me to be absent the rest of this ses-
sion.

Chairman Bowman: We will now li.«-
ten to the report of the committee of
three appointed to report back to this
conference the size of white fish.

Dr. Parker: I will report that we found
in weighing the fish that one fifteen in-
ches long weighs one and one-half
pounds, and one seventeen inches long
weighs two pounds. So that we would
recommend that no fish less than fifteen
inches should be put upon the market.

Mr. Wilmot: Don't you think that a
rather small size, after all ?

Dr. Parker: Yes, it is pretty small.

Mr. Amsden: Two jtounds is small
enough, and it seems to me as low as we
ought to go, but we will have to get it
Ml re ugh by degrees.

Mr. Wilmot: No fish under sixteen in-
ches then, say.

Dr. Parker: Mr. Craig stated before the
committee that that fish (referring to fish
on the table brought from the Sandwich
hatchery) was as small as ought to be

65

(I

put on the market; sltonld be the limit,
in liiH idea. I thinly weon^ht rather to
exeeed tlie limit than to go nnder it, as
HngK««ted by Mr. VVilmot.

Ciiairman : Then do you report tliat
tiie limit should be sixteen inches in
length?

\)\\ Parker: Yes, sir.

Chairman Bowman: Do any of you
gentlemen wish to be heard on this ques-
tion ? The eonimittee have reporteil that
all white tish taken of less than sixteen
inches in length shall be returned to the
waters where taken, and shall not be ex-
posed for sale. If there are no remarks
I will put the question.

The motion prevailed.

Will the Secretary reati the report as
amended in fuU.

(The Secretary reads the report.)

Mr. Andrus: I move the adoption of
this report as amended.

(The motion was supported by ^Ir.
H'lntington.)

Unanimously carried.

Chairman Bowman : There is (me
other (luestion left to be acted upon,
and that is the resolution of Mr. Keyes :
" That all fishing with gill nets shall be
j)rohibited in the great lakes in less than
eighty feet of water."

Mr. Post: I have a word to say in re-
gard to that. There was one thing that
occurred to me while we were discussing
it. The principal objection which Mr.
Keyes made to gill net fishing (of course,
he admits it is impossible to abolish gill
net fishing) was, that if they fished on
the waters less than eighty feet in de])th
they were going on the spawning
grounds. We have already adopted a
measure which takes that out of the
possibilities, if our recommendations are
adopted. Thespawningseasonin which
no fishing is allowed is the month of
November. So that objection is taken
from under him. The argument is gone.
Now, you might as well try to pull your-
self up to the second story with your
boot straps as try to abolish gill net fish-
ing. I think it is just about as impossi-
ble and about as unreasonable.
9

Mr. Amsden: Would it not be well to
put some restrictions upon it.

Mr. Post: If you have your dose sea-
son during the spawning season, that
puis a restriction upon it. Let them
fish with their gill nets wherever they
(an. They cannot tish in very shallow
water. Their tishiiig on the reefs is not
hindering reproduction. Of course, our
brother's provision with reference to
pound nets probably ought to be ex-
tended to gill nets. He st.ys there is a
wall of gill nets clear a(!ross Lnke I'^rie,
and I would not be surprised if he is
pretty nearly correct, i know it is a
pretty smart fish that gets up Luke Erie.
I was a little amused at his statement as
to the storms taking all his pr und nets
out. I have been turning the matter
over in my own mind asto whether that
did not account for our better catch of
fish on the Detroit River this season.
We have had a better catch this year
than for many years before, and we flat-
tered ourselves a little becau.se we fished
our nets ourselves and thought we did it
a little better. I think that storm that
knocked out their pound nets let a few
of the fish through. I think it goes u
gcKKl ways towards explaining the b(!tter
catch in the Detroit River.

Mr. Wilmot: If you take the gist of
the argument of the gentleman, you
will find it to be this: that the pound
netsc(iul(l be set within four miles of the
shore but the depth of water is not gen-
erally so great ''.lere, and conse(iuently,
if you limit the gill nets to the distance
which the water would indicate, beyond
that the pound nets fisheries W)uld
have the exclusive monopoly of thefish-
ing, and I think that is what the gentle-
man was aiming at.

Dr. Parker: I move the consideration
of this subject be indefinitely postponed.

Mr. Andrus : I second the motion.

Carried.

Mr. Hampton: There is one thing,
gentlemen, that I think you have not
expressed any opinion upon, and I be-
lieve it might be well to express an opin-
ion, simply for the effect it would have

■p

(50

upon our legislatureH. I see from a cur-
sory examination of the New York law
tliat they seize nets there tiiat are iHe-
gally used. It seems to me t()])e well to
adopt a resolution to the etiect thai the
laws should permit and authorize the
seizure ot nets illegally used. We have
no siich law in Miehigan, and 1 can say
from experience we were very much
hampered iu the enforcement of the
law. Carrying out this idea I will offer
the following resolution:

Ki'solved, That the law should authorize thc
Heizure ai:d de.structiou of nets u.sed in violation
of law.

Dr. Parker: I will second that resolu-
tion.

Air. Ilamjjton : I have found this in
this state: We have sometimes seized
the nets; the man is convicted, and pays
the penalty, or the Justice sometimes
suspends the penalty. lie takes his net
and goes on the same as he'ore, only he
will be a little more careful. I have con-
strued the law — not being a lawyer I
could do so — to mean that they were con-
traband goods, and I have seized them,
but they came with a writ of replevin
and I was oliHged to give them up.

Mr. Wilmot- The system pursued in
Canada is substantially tiii;-: For a long
period of time the nets were seized and
sold. We found that such an absurdity
that we came to the concIu.^ion that the
better plan was to destroy the net at
once. And now, as soon as tlie officer
seizes the nets, he burns them. There
should be a limit to the length of any
net used in a boat. Some persons are in
the liabit of using thnu* or four kinds of
nets, and they are left out in a storm,
and consequently thousands of lish are
destroyed.

Mr. Hampton's resolution was unani-
mously adopted.

Mr. Wilmot : I have been looking at
these little fish audadmiring them. You
have designated in your motion that the
tisb slu'll be si.\teen inches long. Now
(piery: How will you measure that fish
to get rid of a dispute in case of a con-
viction?

Chairman: From nose to tail.

Mr. Wilmot: But what part of the tail?
I should say from the tip of the nose to
the center of the tail. There is some-
times an inch difference between the tip
of the tail and the center of the tail, tak-
ing the extreme limits. I would suggest
that the measurement should be from
the tip of the nose to the center of the
tail, or th" > -il tin. A dispute might
arise as U .ength of the tail.

Xo action v/as taken on the point sug-
gested by Mr. Wilmot.

Mr. Wilmot: Before we adjourn 1
would beg to tender to this conference
the thanks of the commission of Canada
who have attended for the courtesies ex-
tended to them. We feel deeply grati-
fied that we should be penhitted to come
here by the kind invitation you hi»nt,
and we now wish to tender our thanks
for the courtesy that has been extended
to us.

Chairman Bowman ; The Secretary and
stenographer will make note of what has
been said. It has been very kind of you;
indeed, gentlemen, to come here, and we
desire to make you one of us as much as
we can

Mr. Harris: I can only add my thanks.
1 have been very happy in attending
this meeting. I shall not forget my visit
to Detroit for some time and I am very
glad that you gentlemen have been
pleased.

Secretary: I want to make a motion
that it be the sense of this meeting that
further meetings of this conference are
desirable, leaving it open to be calle<l
whenever the spirit moves. That it
shall be subject to the call of the Chair-
man at any time, whenever the necessity
arises.

Dr. Sweeny : I will second that resolu-
tion.

Dr. Parker: How would it be to make
it an annual affair, anyway?

Dr. Sweeny : It would be very pleasant
to me personally.

Dr. Parker: The {\\ stion is wlxether
there are enough subjects to come up
for discussion.

I

67

t

Tlie Secretary : 1 think you will fiml
that enough subjects will come up, and
1 think it would be well to embody it in
the resolution.

(The resolution was unanimously
adopted. )

Chairman Bowman : I would like to
say l)efore we separate on behalf of the
American members of the conference
that we are all delighted and very much
pleased with you gentlemen from Can-

ada, and there is a general feeling that
we would like to get nearer together.
Our interest \ii fisii matters are in uni-
son and it would not only be pleasant
always to have you with us but I think
it would do us both good. Certainly,
we feel that we are receiving good from
you hands.

The conference then adjourned sine
ilie.