BLM LIBRARY 88055748 "N, rr V SOKS j i pj \| ^ r' n C \1 r* r SF 84.84 .D61 DIVISION Of £XA~MN£ f.iVOUPE'N'J'-SXi DJ.K£CTOK S -;" \ SAU LAK£ CM./, U Ar .T ^MUAXY 13 2. ■I -4 9"', 6 ,1 Si fcjlj .iVl.' [jr^VTf ^Uo^l^lJJL £ ,-• -,- ■■•^%r> ,:- ' 1 INDEX FIRST DAY ~ Morniiiff Session: Address of Welcome by Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah. .. . ...... A- 1 Address by First Ass't Secretary of Interior T. A, Walters .' A- 2 (including messages from the President ef the United States and the Secretary of the Interior©) Announcement of Order of Business by Director F« R. Carpenter A- 7 Discussion - Grazing Fees . . „ A- 9 FIRST DAY - Afternoon Session Address by Assistant Secretary Oscar Chapman. . . ,- . a . . . , ...... . .... „ Greeting from Senator Elbert D, Thomas of Utah (Read by Mr. Carpenter). . Message from Congressman Edward T, Taylor (Read by Mr. Carpenter.) DISCUSSION: Local assessments „ .............. Motion - "Who shall be allowed to votoe . Policies: 1* Chango in order of preferential classes for licenses,, „ „ . . Motion. ,»••«•.*.«••••••. o. 2c. Division of dependent property into classos0 ........ .v. . . Motion* • -• • • 30 Should cuts r/ithin a class be made on numbers or by restriction of season of use 4« Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated in 1936 licenses 5. Should commensurate property bo divided into classes and definitely defined*, A-19 A~20 A- 20 A-2D A~22 A-23 •A~26- A-23 A-,52- 0 o c e « . ...... ...0 0 <■ SECOND DAY ~ Morning Session Talk by Mr. Julian Tcrritt, Assistant Director of Grazing. . «... . . Recommendations of State Committees, following caucus: ■lirlZOnuf o6«,»ea«..»'*».«.eo6eaaeoOQooooc>oooo«fc«.»sooeQ -» . « • a a . California . . . * . -' 0 -L ( J J. L L Q i ' o o o o <\ <> o o • . . o . • o 9 * e< p . o o * o o o o o o o 9 6 e- c o u o o a a a o o » -o u o . a o o o XaanO e«ooQoooQ0oou0 UrOgOHo .0.0««l....OOO..«.». .6OO0 Montana. .»..e. »..••• New Mexiooo o ....... o Nevada Utah, Wyoming Talk by Director F. R„ Carpenter J_iO D Dyillg »oo.o.o...s..oeao«..9iiosD Special rules of the rango recommended by district boards. .„ Licenses as grazing privileges u » , « , « 9 « « » 0 «« o . <> o ».» • o • g Placing responsibility -on local boards ,,.«. . „ q ........ ... .... p* Enf or cement , of rules' and regulations by Government agencies,, SECOND DAY - Afternoon Session 6....O0.O. ..B..t>.... .. ...... ..eboooo.eo.ooe -0a.....o..-.....9«.oQ.0fl00..«6Qoa 'CO».00'i...*OB«O.O«.000(100OO0XuO000 1ootaeoo.ooooi/o*c-uoo m ««.**« o « «<>><><>« « Motion -fDivision of dependent property into classes. .. •-.•••. .«•• . Motion and Discussion - Dcfini.ng commonsurate property.. ......... . Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Rango allotments in 1936 licens Motion (redraft) and. Discussion - Division of Dependent Property into classes... Motion and Discussion - License Fees •J J- g 3.1L 1 Z a \j J-0!li o « g .OOO.OOO.&..OV.90O.O Improvements. . . , . „ . . Resolution of thanks o . e o . OS, .eoopoOi>o0»* • aueo, ea.ua ...... a. ■>oo...e* U4,..»Q.0...Q • J . o ,/ « y <. -J It u < I o *<<..•. a.o.vu. • > ife*31LaUM^,iiLMX pg^^PH&gH&usswmwwmmsmBBBftt^ A- 2 administering the State lands for the purpose of raising funds for the support of the institutions for which the lands were granted to the State by the Federal Government, The third ownership, representing individual holdings which he-ve been acquired in various ways, is also seriously concerned with the problem of administration of what has formerly been its public pasture grounds. Speaking for Utah alone this thirc) interest is abnormally great because of the community .life which is typical of rural districts in this State. The interests of the residents of these small towns and hamlets are worthy of careful consideration. . As you know, State land holdings are scattered in many thousands of individual tracts. Since the enactment of the Taylor Grazing legislation, the land departments of all of the Western States have been endeavoring to work out in a cooperative way a solution of what is admittedly a perplexing problem. As I understand it, their unanimous opinion is that those State lands should be grouped into compact bodies. This is a question which must be decided between the States and the Federal Government. It should be possible to bring about a consistent and satisfactory settlement of the issue. May I say in conclusion that it interested me greatly to learn that my own State has 6,500 of the 15,000 licensees in the ten Western State districts? This State is, therefore, not only the geographical center of the public domain, but is also economically its core. Mr. Walters, I wish to welcome you in a personal way as representative in this large gathering of the President of the United States, who signed the Taylor Grazing Act, and of Secretary Harold L. Takes, of the Department of the Interior, who has initiated its administration. I also welcome other representatives of your Department. Permit me to wish this conference every success in its deliberations. MR. CABPENTER: Thank you Governor Blood. It was the original intention of Secretary of the Interior Ickes, who has taken a keen personal interest in every step of the administration of the Taylor Act, to appear in person before this conference. Press of business, however, made it impossible for him to attend. In his stead he has sent Mr. T. A. V/i.' Iters, First Assistant Secretary of the Interior, who has a message from his chief as well as the greetings of President Roosevelt to this conference. Secretary Walters is known personally to many of the delegates from Idaho Others know him because of his leadership in civic and public affairs and through his work as chairman of that State's Board of Education. I take pleasure in presenting First Assistant Secretary Walters. MR. WALTERS: Mr. Chairman, Governor Bloo'3 , Ladies and Gentlemen: It is not only a pleasure but a privilege for me to meet with you this morning, and I am delighted that so many of you are present. I have the distinct and distinguished honor of presenting to you this morning, through the Secretary of the Interior, a message from our great President Franklin D. Roosevelt. (applause) "The White House, January 3, 1936. The Honorable, The Secretary of the Interior. My dear Mr. Secretary: On the occasion of the forthcoming Salt Lake City grazing conference, I desire to offer my congratulations. "The grazing program on the public domain under the Taylor Grazing Act is a new conservation movement that"- promises to have historic significance. It i3 the first time since the settlement of the West that there is an opportunity to regulate over-grazing on the public domain. In less than fifteen months after the law was enacted the cattle and sheep men have buried their differences and combined in a joint effort to abolish unfair range practices and to conserve natural rt.sourcor. The most noteworthy feature of the program, however, is the unique coordination of local and Federal effort whereby fifteen thousand stockmen have participated success- fully in the policy of the Department of the interior to give local autonomy in the administration of the nc-7/ law. "Yery sincerely yours, / ?r a n k ."1 i t ; P . I < o o » e v e 1 1 " ), ,, i ,J^lj,,rnir»--~^t-^^ My great immediate chief, Secretary of the Interior, has also sent a special message dated January 6, Department of the Interior. "To the Members of the District Advisory Boards and others attending the Salt Lake Grazing Conference. •.: "It had been my hope and expectation to be with you on this important occasion, but demands upon my time have made it impossible. However., I have designated other officials of the Department to be present, and they will be prepared to discuss with you all phases of the grazing program. -.1 am taking this opportunity to extend to you my best wishes for a successful meeting. • . "Notable progress has been made in carrying out the grazing program since the preliminary organization stage has1 been completed. In any new undertaking of this kind many questions of policy and procedure inevitably arise which must be determined, with a proper consideration of the law and of the diversified interests involved.. This is especially true if such a stupendous cooperative plan of administration, as we have decided upon, is to be established and maintained. "Various rules and regulations iuwe been promulgated for the development and use of the range and others are being compiled.' All of these are in the interest of orderly and simplified procedure. The assistance given to the Department of the Interior. by the duly elected members of the Advisory Boards has expedited the transaction of business and has made possible a smoothness ox operation that otherwise would be impossible. '■■■has I said at the Denver Conference last year, the District Advisory Boards are expected to. work out and propose an equitable apportionment of available range privileges within each district . The Boards will not have administrative functions. Their functions while advisory will be of the . highest possible use to the Department of the Interior and of great beneiit to the grazing interests if they are wisely used. Already, as a result of the work of these Boards, approximately 15,000 temporary licenses have been issued during the past few months. I want these Boards to have and to ■ exercise all of the responsibilities which they can carry and which, within the law, it is possible for them to carry. "I am sure that everyone interested in the grazing law understands that the administrative functions are conferred in express terms upon the Secre- tary of the Interior. Those administrative functions, I have no power to delegate to others. For the- purpose, of enlisting the interest and the active cooperation of the stockmen of the West, I did authorize the setting up of the Advisory Boards to act in the capacity which their name implies. I want these Boards to exercise all the rights and assume all the responsibilities consistent with a sound administration of the Taylor Grazing Act that they can a exercise and assume under the law. It will be understood, of course, that no executive officer has any power' to go beyond the law that limits and defines his authority. "One of the principal purposes of the present conference is to discuss the question of grazing fees as provided by the law. I '."ill refer again to a statement I made at the Denver conference which I still believe to be applicable. I quote: \ • ■ • 'The Interior Department" will have no quarrel with stockmen on that subject. You are willing to pay reasonable foes, and that is all we will' expect. I believe that fees should be on a sliding scale varying with the earning capacity of the land as measured by the market value of the livestock grazed upon it. Fees should not be so low as to arouse the envy of those not ': entitled to public range rights or as to subject the permittees - to a charge of receiving a Government subsidy. / nj.\'t'.| 'The whole question of fees, at the beginning, will be ex- perimental. Me will approach the matter, r/ith an open mind and consider it from the standpoint alike ol] the .public interest and ■of the welfare of the stockmen.1 ■' ;' -•« .;-;>' A-4 Since the Denver meeting we have gone far toward placing the grazing pro- gram on a sound basis , and I am sure that the report of* progress which Director Carpenter' and others will make to you will meet with your unqualified •approvcjl. i "Sincerely yours , ' • J s • Sii §i '. ;} "Harold L. I ekes, |r "Secretary of the Interior" Friends of the West: It is altogether fitting and proper that President Roosevelt should hove signally honored this meeting with the congratulatory message which I have had the pleasure to deliver to you, for this is indeed an historic occasion. This convention is a mile-stone on the road of American conservation, no longer a narrow path beaten through the wilderness by the dogged determination of the Deportment of the Interior, but a broad ' well-planned highway, built through understanding and cooperation, and leading literally to greener pastures. • It is an' occasion because this meeting is the first of its kind in the history of the industry. It is a pioneer gathering of the representatives of western stockmen bent on establishing r. new frontier, - and I use; the term "frontier" in its fullest meaning, - "an" advanced region of settlement and civilization". We have advanced under the Taylor Grazing Act to the settlement of important economic problems as well as administrative questions. We are, therefore, establishing a new frontier for the stock industry of the West. V/e hope to perpetuate all the spirit and romance of the Old West and weave it into a. sustained and regulated industry of the future. The romance, of the West' has not vanished like the waters of a dry river. 'It has merely changed to less spectacular but certainly to no less thrilling courses. You have but to substitute "the saving of the West" for the empire builders "battle cry "the winning of the West" to realize the full import of the present undertaking. Stockmen rill no longer have to win and hold range . "lands in the West against human marauder, but they will have to battle the •forces of nature to' save the rolling range from erosion and from the ''unrestricted competition leading to devastating over-grazing. i This first annual meeting of the grazing district advisors, - and I am proud to stress the word "annual", - is unique in our annals as it initiates a yearly gathering of those dedicated to the policy of a Torudent use of -public grazing ■■ lands' for the benefit of the livestock industry. We are gathered together because the administration of the Taylor Grazing Law, under •the rules and regulations set up under the Department of the Interior, calls for. your advice and recommendations. It will be recalled that Secretary Ickes, speaking to the stockmen of the West at Denver, Colorado, eleven months ago, said, "a patriotic regard for the highest interest of the National will impel you, I am sure, to work hand in hand -/ith your Government in making this epochal Act the means of a National contribution to the prosperity and con- tentment of the whole people"; It was in that same speech that he predicted that the election and use of advisory beards of stockmen in every grazing district on the public lands would play an important and vital part in the administration of the Act. 'The presence horeto.ay of more than 130 delegates from the 34 grazing districts now operating in 10 States of the West is l>roof, positive, of the fulfillment of the Secretary's prediction. Few laws administered by the National Government so vitally affe economic welfare, the industrial activities, and even the standard of of the Notion as does the Taylor Grazing Act. Through it we seek to one of our great national resources, - the remaining public lands of By conservation we mean not only to hold for future use the remaining acres of the Western States, but also to overcome erosion and its evi oh the water supply in a land where water is life, not only for agric purposes but for the benefit of urban populations which more than eve depend on the streams and rivers which take their rise on the public ct the living conserve the West. broad 1 effects ultural r will domain. * The President pointed out in his message to you "as the moot noteworthy ^ feature of the program **** the unique coordination of local and Federal agencies whereby 15,000 stockmen have participated successfully in the policy ,„> in afegfgagafiBsaiBg A-5 of the Department of the Interior to give local autonomy in the administration of the nev/ law". Certainly no one is better qualified to advise and recommend in the administration of the Taylor Grazing Act then you delegates from the 34 grazing districts. This Act, like the majority of laws onactea by, Congress -as postulated and grew out of the actual experience of the industry which, it is designed to perpetuate. Its administration is being developed on that same principal and your presence here today shows -how successfully this is being accomplished. The Department of the interior, charged by law with the administration of the Act, has had, and has now, absolutely no intention of setting up a bureau- cratic, despotic organization to carry out the purposes of the Act. The Department earnestly prefers to take advantage of your wid'e knowledge /of local and general conditions and to use your services to develop a cooperative, move- ment for your benefit and for the benefit of the Nation. . i . :•' The attitude of the Department is sell illustrated by the history of its- effort to put the Act into operation. It rill he recalled that almost immedi- ately following the signing of the Act by the President, a party from the Department, headed by Assistant Secretary Oscar L. Chapman, came to the v/est for the purpose of contacting the stockmen and learning their rashes ancl profiting by the experience of the citizens of that portion of the country in which the Act is of paramount importance. This was followed by a series of State meetings where the. stockmen themselves suggested the bouncori.es and size of the grazing districts. Then, after a period of study of drafting regula- tions, and of coordination of information in Washington, the rules for the apportionment of the ranges and for the distribution of licenses "-re brought West and submitted to you for criticism and advices before being ^ally approved by the- Secretary., Elections of grazing district advisors ■ in each of III 54 districts followed.' With the formation of advisory boards, recommenda- tions on the applications for grazing licenses and for the establishment of rules for fair range practice follow* quickly. This proceduro is new and practically unheard o? in establishing an organization to execute a national law. It is., however, in accordance with the finest conception of democratic coopera- tionand government by the consent of the governed. May we summarize some of the accomplishments since the' establis hmont of the first grazing district. There arc now 34 fully -^^f ^ist^cts districts The elected representatives of. the industry in those 34 districts advise and assist in .the administration of practically 80 »0 00 acres o public grazing land in 10 Ylcstorn States. In round numbers, 15,000 grazing Ucenses have'boen issued for 8,000,000 head of cattle, sheep horse and ££.. This, in itself, is an achievement In so short a space of time ^"e licenses reveal significant and relevant facts. They are, that of all of the cuttle licenses issued 94* are for less than. 500 head, and of nil the sheep licenses issued 87* are for less than 3,000 sheep. In other words, it is apparent that the Taylor Grazing Act is already functioning to nn amazing and Gratifying , aegree in protecting and encouraging the little man. This is a consummation muth ?o be desired. Herdsmen with a small flock, the farmer with a small , .,' number of sheep or cattle is as much entitled to the use of the public domain as is the large operator. The operation of the Act has already in a large measure done two things long hoped for, that is, the burial of ^e differences between the cattle and sheep men, and the establishment of peace between the big operator and the little fellow. These results have been brought about under the. rules .and regulations set up by the .interior Department which, incidentally, employs only o7 full time people in the Division of Grazing. The Department, hoover has had the advice of 509 district board advisors who are familiar with local problems and conditions. In the election of the District Advisory Boarcls the P™le ox :"0ne rum - one vote" was put into practice and vt was a perfectly natural result that the 94 and 87 percent of the "little mar." received a fair and .proportionate representation on all of the. advisory boards. *The way in which the District Advisory Boards h-v/e assisted in this work has been molt gratifying. You have adopted „ wholly non-partisan attitude and earnestly sought to provide the vital basic inf Motion concerning range ,; V TTfrfm'fr^T.T^i^ A-fi » .'■■ : ■ '■ ! i operations in your respectiv.9 localities. You are to he complimented on your willingness to accept the many responsibilities in recommending and advising on the solution of the .difficult problems which have arisen and will arise. ' The Department has faith in you and in this cooperative system of administration. The success of our effort is primarily one of conservation and restoration. In many places on our public lands forage resources have practically -dis- appeared. Development of the industry depends upon the improvement of range conditions. Under the leadership of President Roosevelt, conservation of 'our national resources has become a reality, and now mediums of conservation have been created. One of these is the. Civilian Conservation Corps. V/e ht.ve available through the CCC a means whereby range improvements which would otherwise take years to accomplish may be made in a comparatively short time. Before the enactment of the Taylor Grazing Act it was not thought 'advisable to , make range improvements because there was no adequate protection for them when they were completed. The Crazing Act now provides this protection and the ■,:. Department intends to further the CCC program of improvements to the fullest possible extent. . , f i There are now 43 CCC camps in operation on various portions of the public domain, chiefly in the southern areas where they are now engaged in important work. During the coming season we hope, and expect, to begin similar work in higher and more northern regions. There has been more than a little apprehen- sion among you concerning possible curtailment of our CCC program. I can assure you now that there will be no cut at thin time. Moreover, we are making strenuous efforts to obtain additional camps through which this program can be° spread to all areas of the public domain. The law specifies that permits shall not he issued until the land has been classified. The Division of Grazing has already be$un this work which includes classification studies of ranges and of commensurate properties so that these leases can be related to the land and water owned, occupied, or leased by stock- men within or near grazing districts. In order to expedite the work of classi- fication, an additional force of qualified "range men will soon be employed. The President has.. re commended to the Congress an increase- in appropriations for this classification work. Under existing rules and regulations and Executive Orders, Sections 8, 14 and 15 of the Taylor Grazing Act are now operating. Regulations for the leasing of land). under Section 15 have been approved and are here for distribu- tion. This Section provides for the leasing of isolated tracts of lend to contiguous land owners for grazing purposes. Inasmuch as these lands are to be leased in blocks of 640 acres or more' to owners of adjacent land, may I point out that with the issuance of.tfiese finiil regulations the first move in the leasing of these lands must come from neighboring land owners. Since the preliminary regulations for leasing these lands were formulated en September 20, 1934, there have been received 3,200 applications for leases. Each lease will be handled separately and the terms of the lease will depend on the local conditions. Section 14 authorizes the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion, to order the sale of isolated tracts of the public domain which do not exceed 7^0 acres. It also grants to contiguous land owners a preference right to buy the offered lands at the highest bid price, not exceeding three times the appraised value. Section 8 of the law authorizes exchanges in the public interest of State and privately owned lands of equal value for public lands. Regulations for the operation of this Section were issued on February 8, 1935. They were amended on November 20th so that no fees are required on exchanges involving State-owned lands. It may interest you to know that so far there have been"" filed 236 applications for exchanges of State-owned lands and 10 applications involving land in private ownership. We aro working on arrangements which will make it unnecessary to refer to the Division of Grazing all applications involving lands so situated as not to justify their inclusion in grazing districts, and thus expedite action under these three sections of the Taylor Grazing Law. i M^^«ra^i^^Hh^ 1 . --:-: v»*-ip*>^^^;t'tliliflf^hfflfii,i- - fa 1*1 -■'!.■ ■-■ -VivJi iiMv^ - ■ ■ l - -■■•..■.■'.if,."i-itm .„V,.r- 1 ' i . jt*i f^^i'7 ^« ■■.*'»■» JmiJMJiffww** '"'•' < "\ lit--1./ A- 7 We are now faced with the larger and more difficult problem of establishing equitable and reasonable fees. It must be assumed that benefits which will accrue under the Grazing Act cannot be obtained wholly without cost to the livestock industry. The Act contemplates and imposes upon the Department of the Interior the duty of fixing a charge to be paid in the form of grazing fees. Of these fees, 50% of the money collected is returnable to the States for local purposes and 25$ is, upon appropriation by Congress, to be used for the . improvement of the range. , j. ■ • . I It might "be well to banish the ghosts of a few rumors which have been wandering- in melancholy fashion around the West. The, Department of the . Interior has not now, and never had, any intention of adopting a scale of high fees. One of the purposes of this meeting is to work out a fee which will be reasonable and satisfactory to^ the. industry. Representatives of the stock industry have suggested that a nominal .grazing fee be established during the license period 7/hicn would be less than that; charged when permits are issued, a permit is an asset, different in character from. a license and would justify a larger fee. It has been suggested that a ".. temporary fee of five cents per-head-per-month for cattle and one cent per-head-per-month for sheep be established. 1 was very glad to have these suggestions come from stockmen and they soem to me to be reasonable and , v practical. This will prevent any discrimination between those using the year-round range and part-year range. It will also prevent discrimination between those using ranges of varying quality, which would arise under on acreage basis. On a head-per-month basis, those using a scant range will pay no more per month per animal than those using a well covered range. The suggestion of the five cents per-head-per-month fee for cattle and a one cent per-head-per-month fee for sheep .will, in my opinion, have the favorable con- sideration of the Department. By setting up 3 nominal fee, we will gain, iSome.-;< time to settle certain problems before us and to attack problems which will arise in the adjustment of the permanent fee. Unaer the adopted practice and procedure any suggestion as to fees is subject to the approval of the Department. YThile our great President, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and my dynamic, and efficient superior, Secretary Ickes, are true conservationists, they are also practical men. Your problems are real to them and receive rational and sym- pathetic consideration. I feel that coordinated, democratic, and understanding administration of the Taylor Grazing Act will meet the problems of the present and measure up to the possibilities of tho future. i. b I thank you. MR. CARPENTER: Thank you Secretary Walters. Gentlemen we are ready for business, and in order that you may understand the method that we will use, I will say that we expect to conduct this conference in a rather different way ■than what many conventions you may have attended have been handled. V/e have worked together before but largely in separate States. We are now gathered, the 10 States by delegates, here together. It is necessary, therefore, for us to get the national objective of the act clearly in mind and do all that can be done in two clays to get closer to that objective. I will state briefly, in order that we. may never have absent from our minds, what I conceive to be that objective, and that is the proper use of the lands not only of the public lands but commensurate property so situated around and scattered through this. public domain, that in order to have any value to men they must be hooked up with range rights. The second objective, which will follow naturally when the first is attained, is to stabilize this business, which means a living to all of us. Now we have been, engaged in the last 17 months in steps approaching that objective. It seems. proper at this time that we should take a little account cf ■ stock and see what we have done, but more than that we want to take further steps in the same direction provided we have been headed right. In order to got there it would seem that the policy of discussion would be more fitting for this assembly than a matter of papers and speeches, and for that reason there will be no more formal, papers or speeches made at this convention until the last afternoon of the lafit day, when the last two topics will be taken up briefly by speakers with fivo minutes allotted to them. -r-fi'-r^rf^*^ '/ A-k0 The entire business of the convention will be divided under four heads. The subjects of finances and policies will consume today and half of tomorrow, and the last two subjects are organization and improvements. The first topic is the topic of finances arid in discussing- it, rafter the problem is stated, ye will call for discussion from the floor and various. points of view. Immediately after the noon hour you will be asked, 'in order that we can £,et our machinery into action, to meet by States and meet under the banner for your State in this room and elect a temporary State chairman who , when that State is called upon to give the point of view, will have -a spokesman. We will then be ready for business a&Yiri at 2:00 o'clock. Vte will then "take up the matter, if we have not finished it, of finances and start in with the matter of 'policies, which v/ill take the rest of the day and tomorrow morning. For those primarily interested in the sale, lease, and exchange of land, as Assistant Secretary Walters has told you, there will be a separate meeting ■/ at 2:30 this afternoon on the roof garden where the assistant Secretary and Mr. Havel 1 will be present with' their regulations and £0 into that interesting ,. " .subject, ond you are all invited to attend that meeting on the roof garden 1 ( arid' we will go ahead with the primary grazing work hero in this room at the < ,y same time . I have not boen trying to work on a split minute, but, I figured we would reach this point at eleven o'clock and it is now four minutes to, so I will tell you we are running right on schedule. The first order of business is to take up the subject" of finances before -we approach the matter of fees. It is well to know what the budget of the Division of Grazing includes, and for your convenience that is set forth in the program' paper on the third page', which you have in your hands. I will do no more than run over it , and 'then if 'there is a question or two, answer it*. Then we will take up the matter of fees. The Federal fiscal year runs from duly lat to July 1st, and the fiscal year that we are now in the second half of, which in official parlance is denominated the 36th finance year, provided $150,00(1 for ulta full time employees of the Division of Grazing and expenses and $100,000 for ths district advisors. There was transferred from the Geological Survey $68,000 more. V/e have not nearly used up that apportionment, neither has the full time Division of Grazing used 'their half, nor have the district advisors used their half, and yo\i may smile and think when you are through maybe you will owe the Federal Government some- thing for working. But I wish to assure you that this was a new method of paying district advisors, and the necessary tape bo unwind is being unwound. You. may all be assured that you will get your pay, and if you don't you may be assured your heirs and assigns will. Now, gentlemen, next year the budget, as approved by the Appropriations Committee of Congress with whom I met a few weeks ar;o, calls for a total of §412,000: For the full time employees $312,000; for district advisors #100,000. The increase in the full time Division is due to the necessity for the ran.-e examination which we are .^oina; to undertake this year in order to make the necessary range allocations and allotments, r.nd particularly to get the land ready for term permits which is the first ::rsut . and permanent step for the protection of land and the stabilization of livestock values, and, of course, • for the conservation and development of what rrows on it. Are there any questions on this budget? If not , I wish to say the relation of the budget to the fee may or may not be desired by the stockmen to be considered. You will recollect that the Taylor Act says that 50$ of all the fees shall go to tho States for the use of the counties. Now it is not denominated what the counties may~use it for. The counties help take care of the -oor — or they used to. They have quite a bit to do with the roads. They hove' their county revenue funds for the pay of county officers and incidental expenses*. Also under the county comes a general school tax. In ma:.toc! properties Whet becomes of tho other 25$ of the money, the act does not state, but it is commonly supposes that that was to take care of i,he actual administration of the act. I was questioned on that point by the /Ipprorriations Coiianitt'eQ. I told them that as to fees the* stccJav.en had been assured that no foe' would be set Until they had a full time to discuss it, but that it was generally supposed in the Yfost that the ■ stockmen preferred to pay as they went and that they would provide a method to take care of these expenses and ^et down to business basis- • as soon as possible. That may or may not be advisable at this tine. There may not be value enough received in these temporary licenses to take care of it. But if it is the wishes of the stockmen to go on to a business and paying basis, it will be necessary to adjust' fees on a 4- to 1 basis, fifty cents to go "to the' local governments, or as indicated two-bits to go for improvement and the other two-bits to take care of t/ne appropriation. : One advantage h'.s that it makes > every one of the 15,000 users of the public domain watch the expenses. You know the general tendency of all G^/arnraent expenses. The inevitable tendency when not watched, and even when watched, they have a tendency to creep upward. Go we immediately get the foelin;.; that the moro workable these units are hel'd , and the lower the expenses are kept, the better off ti.11 to the stockmen as rrvards fees. I will divide the topic of "grazing fees into two heads: First, should there be any grazing fees or do you 7/ish to £0 on .another free year as we went in the past?' Having had expressions on that matter, we will take up the Question, and it; will be referred to the committees to report back here, as to how much that fee should be. Now I am gbinj to ask speakers when they get up ■ if they will please give thuir name and State in order that the reporters may get into the record what was said here, and I will ask for expressions of opinion as to whether, with your knowledge, particularly your knowledge of your local- district, you believe it is coing to be advisable to have any fees, or whether you think it advisable to continue on a strictly gratuitous basis as wo are today. V/e should not be afraid to talk with each other, as we have talked before. MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO : May I surest that because there is a number of livestock raisers present in this mooting that are not on the advisory boards that they be asked especially to discuja this question at this time. I feel that the members of tho advisory boards should hesitate at this time until they are permitted to caucus and determine as a body just what their position should bo. MR. Ci^RPEMTER: Mr. Oliver Lee has taken the position that the advisory boards would like to hear from those not on the advisory boards before they go into their caucus. Is that correct? • . MR. LEE: Correct. MR. BPCCK OF WYOMING: Inasmuch as the credit of the stockrc.en is vital at this time — I saw Mr. Stewart of the Farm Credit Administration here — I wonder if wo could get an expression from him as to what o£fe«t temporary licenses would have as against permits in the credit facilities of bha Government ', I think that might be quite a -factor in answer inc; the question which you asked here before. MR. GAREEN1JJ3R • I would be very -lad to hear from Mr. Stewart, but at this time I would like him to take up the question os to whether nny fee is adviHnhln ■ -4 mmmm^^^^ ■■-'.- ; .' J-. "• .&y.t A- 10 ■MR. BROCK OF WTOftHW: My thought is just what effect he would consider i- temporary; licenses in making loans. That would have some effect on the oliher question.' I j \. ."' \ ' ' -;-f y- MR. CARPENTER: We are not discussing whether we will have temporary | licenses or not, but whether we will have a fee for them. Would you like 'to 'hear from1 Mr. Stewart on that, Mr. Brock? we are co ing to reach the matter of '•■temporary' licenses or permits a little later on iii' the program. h MR. Y7ING OF CALIFORNIA: Mo?. Chairman, the stockmen from Nevada and California who are temporary licensees under the Taylor Grazing Act have hot •caucused in reference to the following, hut have made these suggestions. They offer them for your consideration, and although when they do caucus they may .change their present stand on these matters. . '. The licensees under, the Taylor Grazing .Act of California Districts No; -1 and No. 2; Nevada No. 1 and 2, are net in a position to pay fees for grazing at- this time, unless: 1. In consultation with credit- agencies they will agree to allow the- ' 'increased amount necessary in the stockmen's budgets. In this connection it will necessitate consultation with individual stockmen and credit agencies affected. ••-:•.., 1 j j 4 t'j ^\'~ J • 2. The livestock men who are licensees of California No. 1 and 2-, Nevada No. 1 and 2, today are paying their full share and are largely supporting school, county and State taxes. ■-*' ;, Vt-V- :• .? ■ ..... • j *■ The valuation of the deeded" lands' of these stockmen rives full considera- tion to the public domain which said deeded land controls. With local, State and Federal taxes increasing and with these deeded -lands '^and personal property already paying an undue share of the tax burden for : the- 'support of schools, local State and Federal Governments additional costs of livestock prod.uction at this time is unwarranted and" will v/ork an undue hardship on the livestock industry. 3. Any business in employment of labor does not pay cash in advance for "labor to he done. In other words, if additional benefits to the livestock. industry are to accrue through the operation of the Taylor 'Grazing Act, such ' benefits should be paid for after it has been demonstrated that said benefits actually do exist. The land was classified during the year of 19.35; the protection of the individual stockmen's range from trespass thus assuring the stockman of range protection and the actual making possible of additional feed ' has not yet materialized. 4. At the present time range rights have not been established. Federal loan agencies today will not accept a license to graze on the public domain (Taylor Grazing Districts) as collateral. If said Federal loan agencies aro not willing to accept a grazing, license as collateral, it is clearly 'demonstrated that no additional benefit has been derived by the stockman and ;that the stockman's license' is not secure. Until the determination of range rights, :md the issuance of long term permits (licenses) to graze, the stockmen are not in a position to pay additional costs of handling livestock on the grazing districts. 5. The water which makes possible the grazing of livestock on the grazing districts is 99$ owned by the livestock men. The 'stockmen have developed said water and invested heavily to make this water available. The feod without the water is valueless. ■ The stockmen have paid out in the developing of the water -- all the feel is worth. It also should be considered in this connection that the wild life inhabiting these grazing areas depends upon this pra.va.tely owned wator. The stockmen do not charge the Government in its protection of wild life for the use of this water*. The number of deer, antelope and other forms of wild life would be much less if it were not for the water development carried on by the stockmen. :"l ■ ■■*■;]; -v^ A-ll iuj-tuaiL • m ■»!,.< .-fr .'■.- Therefore, we the delegates representing California Grazing Districts "Wo. ■ 1 and 2, and Nevada Grazing Districts No, 1 and 2, ask that no grazing fees be placed into effect ,for< a period of five years .commencing (with January 1, • 19£Q, and that at the expiration of . said period if it oan then be Jshown that additional benefits have accrued, ;that .there is stability, of range use; that Federal credit agencies recognize, grazing, licenses as collateral ; and if. the stock-raising; industry has the ability to.rpay. — that then grazing fees.be assessed on the basis of the total animal months and feed units which said livestock graze within said grazing districts in comparison with the animal and. .feed units which said livestock graze in the national forests or on privately-owned" land* , ::■, •■■■'"■_ '-' - ■ '■•■■■:■' ...-■-•-. j j Further, that said grazing, fees shall be only the cost |of administration of said grazing districts. .. ;■ :-.,- , Whereas, the Taylor grazing act is one of the constructive pieces .of ;. legislation ;passed by the New;,Deal for the purpose of the protection and , • stabilization .of the livestock industry and the conservation of the range, and ■' ■ Whereas, the livestock, men of the public land States have made a !t . tremendous effort to- maintain rt heir industry so that it will be an asset to, the counties, States,, and Nation, and have only been able to do s,o with the aid, pf the Federal Government. r.v--; > -• '■ j Therefore, we now earnestly request that during the period of setting up of grazing areas and in the determination of rights for use of the public lands in connection with private ownership, prior, use, that no foe be charged for grazing privileges and, . ^ •. ; .-..- \.. .... • I ,Be it further resolved, with the full understanding of. .the ( stockmen tha^ grazing fees will be rapproyedjby .them whqn they are in a financial position to bear this additional burden. I ' .'-■•■"■ • j , ■ . MR* CARPENTER: Gentlemen, we arc off to a good start. , I thought-' we y/pre ooming.to.it inevitably — that when we wore through the Federal Government, would owe you something for running on the range. ( • . ., :-.<\y:;U< -.: • u ■ • r ' ■ SENATOR CAUDLAND OF UTAH: Mr. Carponter • I should not object so much to the grazing fee. I don't object so much to the grazing foo ;if I got some grass, - but if I have .watering places on the .range and people .who go on the winter range before I do and sweep all the feed away from around my watering places I -don't think I should pay a grazing feo when I don't got any grass, and that to me is more important than the question of the amount of fee or when I begin to pay it. ;.• . _ MR. LUBKEN OF CALIFORNIA: Stockmen: Mr, Wing here gave you a statement as to the; attitude of California No. 1. I wall havo to have it understood that I am from California 1, from the Mojave section, and I believe I am the only one here from down there. The sheepmen did not come. My instructions wore that wo should pay for this range, that it was worth it to us, and tho amount was 10 cents per head for cattle and. 277 cents for sheep per month, or a dollar per year for cattle -the year round or . 25 cents for sheep. I could not vory well let that statoment of Mr. Wing go by without making that statement. I pledged myself to the committee back in Bakersfiold that that is where I would stand, as that was their sentiment and I would do all I could to put it through on a pay;basis. Wo feel that wo. should pay for what we got, and if wc got it we are. going to psy for it>^ It is a great deal like tho Forost Scrvico in tho oarly days; when thoro was not any foo tho Eastern roprcscntatiyos thought wo wore getting a big thing and made all the fuss thoy could. That is tho reason wo are whoro we are today with tho Forest Service, •I bolicvoit is worth 50 cents an aero on rented land liko wo havo to pay in our country, and wo can got bottor grazingland on the public domain. I bolievo 10 conts is all 0. K.-.- I am giving you the attitudo of my district. As . to what tho balance of you want to do is all 0, K. with mo. , MR. NEILSON OF UTAH: I think wc havo proscntcd by those two gentlemen the •'' two extremes . ? . ■V.I 1 ; «; - t. ■ 6 i 1 f?; -"■!' ;■'■■- v!!' A-12 MR. STAAS OF UTAH: In. my district when we started to 'put in an assessment, and I have to tell you that, when we .have: the money in our treasury — and we got two riders --.we have got -wonderful district -and do protect every man. In every dispute we send our riders and settle, and after we got orders from Interior Department broke down the money,; we, are entirely up against it, i ■ r ' My friend spoke about, the work*. That, is the question. If we have got. riders and can enforce, the law, and, can get. them to- respect the, lav;, that is' going to-be wonderful law... / 1 .wonder how. we can control our district without any way to enf or ce,>the law. i.n Without,, any means. {bo .enforce ijhe lav/ I am afraid every one here ;- all of us »■ are going to be disappointed. If we later increase thej assessment we are going to have wonderful system, protect every man, especially the men who are liable to be overpowered by some of the people. Therefore, I believe we are .going to have to .find some way to finance the act, otherwise we. are going to be .disappointed.^ . ,. < ■ . ,.t MR. WHINNERY OF COLORADO: Mr. Chairman-. Speaking not as a representative of the grazing force, but as a ^representative cf the man at home who is running this stock on the range,. I believe Jtfr. Chairman that the payment of the fee, whatever may bejagreed upon as ■ • , i-- ' . . MR. BACON OF IDAHO; I would like to indorse the statements made by Mr, Wing, I don't think our people in, Idaho, want to ;pay any fee until we have permits issued. We have not anything in .the wajr of rights that is of any value whatever. We cannot, .borrow, any. money -on .it. When that permit is issued I think Idaho ^would,- be willing, to, pay a foe. ,; >:v; '■w - ';vr, '; .-,.•<•;, : - , ;> MR. MCFARLANE OF UTAH: Gentlemen:- Utah has been in this thing a long time. They perhaps have been in the front because their necessity has compelled them tf be.. On account of .the shortage of range, we felt the pinch earlier perhaps than any other State „ Arid while I believe --" jn fact when I was (in Washington I told them that the cattlemen were willing to pay for what they, got. But they want to get what they pay for -- that is what v/e have got to do now. I just want to say this, that if we douj't take hold of this thing and are willing to pay for what .we get, (we are not. going to get these lands. .. . ,•■. Wo have the Wild! Life asking for ten or fifteen million acres. We have the « Park Service asking for fifteen cr twenty million; acres, and the Forest Service asking to put more in, and if we don't totoahp/Ld of this thing now- and try to do something, you are going to find that we_ will' not havo these lands to graze. And I think it would be a mistake to, < try and /put it off for five years, because we- would have nothing to supervise and regulate. I can't tell you what I think is right-on the part of a fee. I think it should be a sliding scale, but .let us be right about it — cooperate, cattle- men and sheepmen work together and try and protect these ranges and have some- thing worth while. There is no uso thinking you hove got something when you have npt got it. So let's get. ..started and, get this thing built up. MR WEBB OF ARIZONA: Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen-. Two extremes have been suggested. Extremes are rarely ever right or wise. I believe a happ$- medium is the best. Mr v .Carpenter, I believe in Arizona, we hove been lod " to believe by talks of yours that under the license period there would probably be no fee. I think .-that. _ = is only fair and proper. I still think it would, be wise, until the whole, program has been worked out and operating in all its details, that there should not be a high foe. I should 'think there should •be a reasonable amount. There have been reasonable ones suggested hero.. The State owns a large proportion of the lend, and every csittle and shoepman in the State -« - practioally everyone has State landN"'l-oe,sed more or less, and they are paying riot to exceed 40 cents a head a year on very much better grazing land - the. best of the State .-., because the. first homosteader or settlor took their choice of -all,, the best.- Then .the.. State came along and they havo selected all of the very best, and we ai*e paying now not to exceed 40 cents, and sometimes muoh less than 40 cents. The public domain loft is not , nearly so dosirable, and Mr. Carpenter, for your benefit, there are soctions, ■> . ■ '*•••,.,.; ... :..;,r|i c. i • . i ,L , MR.. CECIL iOF OREGON:. I am from District 2 in Oregon. While wo didn't have ... an opportunity to caucus moro than -'one of our precjivjts , it v/as tho opinion in precinct.!,, District ;2y \that fivo cents 'per .month per cow and j one oont per head per month for sheep nvould bo-la- fair- and' equitable foe as a startor. . .:■■ Some of the gontl omen have said the importance of this whole thing Is not so "much tho amount of the foe. It is what .v/o -get for our m°n°y when wo get further alcng. But we all realize, in ordor to get started, wo have got to pay a little as wo go, ..and whether, tho ; one cent.. and ; five oentSj is /exactly tho right amount at this timo -as a starting .-proposition/'.-, it ought, not i?o wrock any- of us, and. I think it fair and .reaSonabld.'s- ^Itimoots the^-approvalf-of ^tho people jiiir. \ District No. 2. "• i-< ;• i Kf-% nc-'fr^^i .«'• ."-';••: \ ■ i i! MR. HYATT OF WYOMING: Wyoming'No. 1 fe'ols v/hile wo are under temporary licenses wo should. not be chargod for somotliing we aro not getting. Wo arq under ■•• something like the gentleman from Ari-Jona. Sore cf our. area would coincide with • somo of that he has crossed over coming up, and I wish to. -state that is the way we -.feel - no charge at this, time..: .jr; ■ •. . W >;. •, :'\<\ ■■ '■ i. {•:« -;: •■.■.-•;,■, .. ; - AIR. JOHNSON 'OF UTAH: For the first ti?ne the. Govornmont has really turned to those governed, and it looks unfair to mo, and I believe that District 1 Advisory Board iwill bear me out in it, that we don't want,,;something for nothing; .that inasmuch as the President and,..the Secretary havo of f erod, .us this oppor- tunity to work with thorn in- a" solution of our own problems that we not ask them to pay all the bills. I would like to assure you that in my. opinion unless we • do this thing and do it right wo '-will be subjoot to bureaucratic rule -as wo h.ave rhad in tho Forest Sorvico, and I am 'sure everyone, of -you have fought that all ••the way. It -took them 25 years, to do what .wo have • done in L7 months „ They have not our good will now, and j want:. to assure.Mrv. Cavpofitor, riid. his superiors . tthat^thoy have the good will of -a lot of us in 17 month's. We aro willing to pay in our district I am sure. / .- . MR. CARPENTER: .Mr* > Johnson >haScComo -back to: something you^have. hoard •before. The man that pays the price calls the tune. MR. WILSON OF WYOMING: I may bo out of ordor, but I want to ask whether or not copies of this record jVdll.f.bp available, to. tho State Association. . MR. CARPENTER: Cop ies.v of w thO rpocrd'will. bo -available to any interested [party. It will bo a public document. . ■• •' ■-• ;• '. MR.; WILSON OF WT0MING:,.>s'Then'WOj.canvSeouroi. copies -of it aftor it has been I- mimeographed?; • ■ , .-• :.r V- «:,.■;.>■• --'•;■ -■.-.. r-y ii$-*p : ■;'. •.-•■• u? '< . , ■»' .• •- ';':: ~ti'r; ;'V-. '•■:. ;?.■ *£* $%\& kr$*4\ ' •' i MR. CARPENTER: .Yes. -.-: ,. .-...' >'M 1 v ;K- MR. WILSON OF WYOMING: "'I;, am not in n" position to speak for Wyoming bocause Wyoming has not yet caucused, vltf seems-, to (me; that wo have got the cart bofore !■'■;'; .I- '■ ■ ■■ r -, *-"- ?'v *'«. ' ;:v. ^:;:;i- i • >, .• y , ; ■ . v I ■ ••t ' H . .a 4« !■:■■■ i-V **..*< .,,, .: '. ■•-•-; !.:,31 yrh i- . i i \C.' A-14- the horse. Wo have in many districts, one" in Wyoming, and in many others, presented to the Department >fbr approval certain rules and "'regulations that- are not bound up vdth "any other 'fees -or any othor policies, and until we have some action, some approval of- -thos^o rules so the lecal advisory boards maV know • the mcasuro of their control, 1 am inclined to believe that we aro not in! a position to discuss foos. ^ Wyemirig wi'i.1 'have' to oaucus before they car • discuss them, but I do "think 'wo should know 'something about the- ai?p -oval of those rules for' range practice adopted by. the advisory boards, which wore1 to bo'- approvod by the Department of the Intorior, some of which havo boon in Washington for six months. ,.•••• ' w. •? « ,y • *„-■ ;. , \-** --.:/-,.■. *.-, \,~-\ , ..; MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: I want, to sta^o I never obtaindd the program until lato last evening-. Not knowing- tho contents thereof, our advisorv boards' and our constituents connocted in'-that district havo tfbvcr caucused and No. 3' ! *•> Grazing District of Utah is not prepared to act along this subject. I would liko to soo this, if possible, held over until a later date before we havo I to go into a matt or of voting upon this issue. m \}^\ .CARPENTER: BQf^o I' ro'co'gnizo the next speaker I wish to say this to Mr. Williams, that it is simply brought up horo iri ordor that you may see' the '• divergent national issues. ! Herotoforo you havo soon only your own district and^ your' own conditions. Now you •aro^vitnbs sing and looking on'- this grazing map from Canada tc old Mississippi and hoar each £ art give their points of view. * ■'■'■' ' .) ''":- < SteA U & r "• •. - '" f- •> ". ■ ?! ■"-. ■■{•. After this is discussed- in your u-v*;» ■■ . \. . -> " •-.- •• /"* :- • 1 ' : MR STONE OP UTAH: I do not fool wo should be assessed at this time. Those temporary permits are not wortlva -hoof' asl lo'olc at it* Tho stockmen foel that they -are as bad or worse off than 'hhby word '"before the thing was inaugurated'. They question bur rights and they havo made the country all oommon use territory. We are Assessed', on the cattle,- and wc don't foel like wo should bo assessed until it is' in working order. ! T- '' ■■'•'-'■ • • ■ '-■■■ ar,- Maybe I don't sob it just fair,' but I have a ranch and" horo recently tho • advisory board haVo soeii fit to hiro its own mombors as riaors. A sheepman is the rider in our district, -and1 he just recently :;rdorod a herd of 'sheop to put a camp -within a mile of my place, within a half mile of my fenco. I don't feel like paying a foe until I know I havo got somothing to pay on, then I am ' perfectly willing to do my share. Five cents for cattle and one cent for shoop would bo all right. I don't think it needs ts be five.' yoars from now. As soon as tho land is classified and ' wo -know what wo havo got, I am perfectly willing to" pay my share for -it. ""•:'•';•,■ i-'-- MR. CARPENTER: I wonder when ho says alicehso is not worth a "hoot" — I wondor about those appeals,- - huhdrods of them, - they wore' doniod licenses, what about their "hoots". "*•"?'' • '■■ "^•••- -••„: ' '• (Laughter) ■'■'■' • ••-•>• - 'MR'. WYATT OP COLORADO: I-am not speaking for tho advisory board on which I- sit or tho delegation vdth Which I come, but as on-individual. While I am a shoopman and holpod to hire a rango rider, wo hired a cattloman and ho is doine fine. * .. • i<. -.:■ w t> ;. . & - •" ft. :-.. \yy- ■ r ■:■ .# ■ ,■ Washington hasn't mny jurisdiction over a rider. Tho advisory board can hire him better than they can -in" Washington, or oven Salt Lake, or Colorado, as far as that is concerned. Tho last few hours of boing around this hotel and listening to various dolegatos from various- States;- tho ro' soems to' bo a feeling that tho stockman wants to pay as! ho' -good. •- The livestock man hasnoycr asked for a subsidy from tho Government. -lib has tried to pay his- dobts and obligations. As I hear the talk I havo the -impression that the average livestock man wants to start paying now. Perhaps not toomuoh> but ho wants' to inow whoro ho is coin/*;. Ho ■ "* ' » '■!;•: :ir-:..-/-: ■ i V -- .£.* m& . ■ ■■■■', C : *» ^^mm^mmm^^^ A-15 v I. wants a permanent permit just as soon" as ho can haVe it: Now tho Department may toll yoUj Mr. Chairman, and theso dologatos -- wo foel you aro.ono of ..us of course. — that they are not proparcd to issue a pormanont permit* How long should it take to got their affairs into shapo? Thon a. man will- know where he is . going. Ho can go to his .bank or his financial agency raid ho has an asset. >:I boliovo a happy medium, as tho Gontloman from Wyoming statod, is tho best solution* Vie might got together where we would start paying on a temporary basis; but hot for von/ long, and got on a pormonent basis within tho next fow months, \ but -I for one would rathor bo ^on a pormanont basis whero I know whore "I am going -'and can adjust .my finances and have something .to show for the work which I havo done .through tho years, and I think a groat 'many feel that way. . • ' V '{< • ■£' • : |J \ -V MR. MATHlS OF ARIZONA: I am not speaking for the board. Wo havo not cauousod on this matter. I am just speaking my owtr individual viovrs on this. Thoro is a temporary period now that wo havo licenses for; that I think wo should pay for the administering on, but I don't think, until wo got somothing :~ pormanont > 'that wo have a real asset that we can depend ■ on and of for as . . collateral that wo should havo to pay anything into tho county or tho State. Wo • aro already ;taxod until, tho Fodoral Govornmonb has had tp come in and help us out of this condition,, but whllo operating undor this temporary poriod, in which time wo hope to adjust" our claims and our rights, thoro is oxponso that is necossary. Wo can't got by. Down in our part of the country wo have already incurred bills that we do not know how to pay, We can't assoss, and to try to got it by contribution — thoro aro only a fow, as in all other things that arc financed by contribution, that would pay. So I think it would be. right and proper that we bo assessed for. tho administering of the affairs in each district and that only, until we havo a .permanent set-up. .Then after we got our permanent sot-up I think wo can work with our .county officials" and ^tate -officials, land adjust our tax so at will bo in proportion with every thinfe else. . But now to bo assessed, for that purpose, oirfwohoDl purposes, it would' bo a double assessment that tho livestock interest con not stand at this time a ■ MR. LEE OF IDAHO: In Idaho wo havo throe districts- One of thorn is o-ganized and two of thorn havo not been organizod. Wo asked tho boys from the districts that havo not boon organized to speak for themselves. Speaking for the district that I. represent, No. 1, wo disoussed this informally and formally in ' several meetings^ and tried to oomo to some agreement o.bout what wo woald do about this foe or assessment, whichever you would like to call it. Wo adopted certain rulos that we asked, the Department to pasn- for our district. Among those things we asked to do was to classify tho land and ajlso classify the people, tho • applicants that should be Issued licenses,, arid wo agreed- at such time as they could classify this land and soo about what. tho foe would bo worth on that, and also classify the permittees and see* who >. was going to use this, land and who would bo allowed to uso it. ; .-:••<- V;: . :< /■* . That meant, of course,- it would bo 'sogrogatod, some part would be in permits. Thoro might .be soma torritory in our district that would bo advisablo to run m common although wo aro not able to agrco on how that should bo done. But until such time as the land. was classified and,-;tho pormittocs. classified wo could not agreo as to whoro wo could assoss oursolvos for administration because wo don t have 'anything to administer. .It was probably at our organization that those tentative feos originated. Wo.agroed aftor this was sot up that we might pay one cent a head for snoop and, five cents' -.a. head for cattle as a starter that wo woula have somothing to. go on. . ,We realizo.that there would have to bo some kind .■ of policing in:tho district so .that: every follow, would get what ho paid for. Wo roalizo that in Idaho that wo aro differently situated from the southorn part of the United States* -I understand down thoro that those boys havo pormits,. and thoy pay for it where .they, can-graze the stock. tho .yoar round. Up in our territory, the immediate. .vicinity that I.reprcscnt, all of /the land that wo uso all of our Stato,- about 75% of .it. belongs to-tho Government as forost. -The rest of.it is in agricultural leased lands and privately- owned land.,.; Since the Government allowed: a 640-acro -homostoad, a, groat- deal of it has passed into tho hands of the oounty, and tho; public domain is vory small. Part of our grazing sot-up, except' in one part of .the district, that is what wo call tho south sido of Snake Rivor. Tho rost of tho, territory thoro is just a little hold-over ground, in the springs of -the year until, tho people can got back on J-r . - i .-; r - :■ < , mm A-16 their own land or got on tho forost roscrvo. When that has boon olassificd and tho follow looks for tho grass, ho will probably think we are orttitlod to a little bonus for staying thoro tho length of timo that wo do. I am not spoaking for our district now as to whothcr wo will mako the assessment, but I boliovo tho consonsus of opinion from our part of the Stafco v/ould bo.. that this assessment -should bo vory nominal until such time as wp, havo a, pormit and know we aro going to got somo consideration for what wo pay jfor. MR. MONTGOMERY OP MONTANA: I am not a member of a Taylor Grazing District Advisory Board, I. tako.it you aro, asking for discussion from those who aro not. In my work, botv/oon tho stock grazing associations, which havo. gone quite a long ways in Montana, and :. tho Taylor -Grazing Act districts, I have found oxprossod , desires, on tho part of. tho stockmen of Montana to pay their way for whotovor they got. , I have found this,' to my. host knowledge, that thero has boon no. , . # MR, CARPENTER; . Mr., Montgomery, I tjpnk you k/o in viow District 1, in Montana, whoro, in order to porfect tho stock organizations, no. licenses havo boon issued. But. it. is my understanding that in other districts in Montana licenses :have boon issued.. tho samo as othor districts in othor Statos — that is tho temporary grazing privileges'. .,:. ,-,. " MR. WOOD OF MONTANA: I was- listening to tho difforont onos in rogard to fees, and I boliovo a largo .majority in our district will favor a foe, and that seems vory reasonable - 1 and 6 - but not until wo havo somothing for it. In our country tho land is chockor-boarded by railroad land, deodod land and State land. Tho Government land, is in small tracts. I think practically ; all of the pooplo thoror.will favor ,an allotment,;, and I,thinjc they will be glad to pay the fee just as soon as the land can bo. classified. But I havo noticed in tho advisory board »»..ir/canl-t vorywoll speak for* the board but lcnow of our mombors of our advisory boards «— I just met , them at tho door as I came in — and I am just spoaking for. myself ■*- but, what I havo J oar nod on tho board',; and I am satisfied that the stockmen in our locality would bo perfectly satisfied to pay a foe, but thoy ..want something for their money; thoy want some protection. • — .. ■.■<....•.. v We havo not any large tracts of Government land as they havo in other localities, mostly 'deeded land and State land. I think tho only satisfaction would bo to allot this land. So far in our country our advisory board has agreed on everything that' has ccmo up, and thoro is no quostion botv/oon the two interests, and I bolievo and approvo and v/ould like to see it on- a paying basis as soon as wo can, get some protection, and' I. highly approvo of the plan that the Secretary and Mr. Carpontor havo workod out, and if it can bo rcforrod to the advisory board S' --. the ; men who havo been on the range for years — I have been on the rango for almost 50 yoars and I .know.tho;. rango men will maybe work that out bettor than, ,some smartor follow in Washington* We would like to soo the land classified. . • ■• --. ■ ■--. ■ ■fr, 1 1 \ iX, 'I I i •'!-■ MR, MITE OF UTAH: ■ I don't think that we aro so much c one o mod by tho feo wo are going to pay as we arc about tho management of tho range. I have boon running ,on tho desert, Utah and Nevada, dvor since 1934. I am also running on tho dosort at tho prosont time, and I find that tho; Taylor Grazing Act has not eliminated the hazards on tho. desort., Ono trouble wo aro having at the. present timo wo aro over-stocked. Thoro is morp sheep and cattle on tho % rango today than thoro over;1 has boon in tho history of tho country, I boliovo. That is the caso in our district. . • I think that as to foos it doponds on the locality in which wo are running. Utah probably is difforont from othor Statos. Utah and Idaho and Nevada probably aro very similar, butv/o.aro not,. so much concornod; if wo will get value received in tho amount that wo pay, but I want to toll you. tho shoopmon aro running; a big chanco when run on tho dosort. Thoy aro not assurod of food. They aro subjoct to. hoavy snow falls at any timo -i- they aro worried con- tinuously about that.— and.it is vory necessary that wo 'have supplementary food that wo havo to- buy. Wo aro alroady taxed; to ., death. Wo are taxed now to tho extent that we can not pay. them. Wo are,. taxed -mow,. more than wo v/ero during good times, ond wo can't stand to pay vory much for tho grazing that wo, aro rocoiving at tho present .time, and I think wo only should pay tho ni*\rtUV»T. ■hV>n+: A c nnrtnoonwr +ta V> <■> \*A 1 n 4-ViX xi. - ~_ I '. ?;■ g •■ i' ■ • !' i J. %\ MR. COX OF UTAH: I an not speaking for any advisory board, but I -viv, 'how*. ever, speaking for the Southern Utah Livestock Association which represents 80 to 100 livostock-mon and over 150,000 sheep. Our association has resolved against assessing any fee under tho liconso period, or until such tine as the livestock industry can carry tho load, Vte fool, and wo have been led to' believe and led to' understand by tho Department, that there would be no fees 'during tho license period. Wc understand that this law was not a revenue moasuro but a .moasuro to- rehabilitate tho rangos raid the livestock industry, and in the. lav; it has directed tho Secretary of tho Interior, at his discretion, to rofund in part or 'in whole any foes during certain emergencies, and certainly tho iive- stdck industry was 'never in- more cf an emergency or a bad position' financially than wo are today4 The only difforonoc is wo think some of us can see a littlo daylight, ■ . \ • ; ' Thore is plonty of precedent why tho Government, why tho Department should carry this load at this time. They have 'gono out -.. the Reclamation Department just as an Example — and spent millions 'for dans to- reclaim a few hundred thousand acres of land for irrigation purposes. Certainly they should spend some money to rehabilitate the public lands. Further, they aro spending money to rehabilitate and bolster up or subsidize, if you please, other business, and wo .think wo aro ontitlod at this time to be rehabilitated. Wo aro back of the law down that way a hundred percent', and we think it is good, and we are back of the Department — but thoso are our sentiments regarding "tho foes. MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, on account of tho time, I will havo to intorupt this interesting discussion; but it is not ended. Let me summarizo it by say- ing that it is very evident hero that we vail not 'be able [to take up tho 'subject of foes and roach any reasonable' conclusions until wo have all of tho facts that wo have 'to discuss, which moans policies, allotments and form permits/, and wo come back to the discussion mado by Mr* Williams that it would bo unfair to try to roach a solution on this until you have looked ovor the whole field, and for this reason and bocauso it is two minutes to /twelve I am. aftor a fow statements and "'one other important item of business, gep.g to adjourn this meeting, and then wg yd 11 take it up whore we 'have loft off, but before" continuing the subjoct we will -make a statement on policiesV range allotments and term permits, and then if it is tho wi'shos of the conference we vrf.ll go into the matter of .policies in order that by 7:30 tonight when wo meet by States you may have covered the field entirely and be bettor able to fit the feo subjoct into other matt or sv '' • ^■'"': ' ;* |>r>. ■:■;■■: J-.7JP.'. Ilpfff : ;" ;:": : •■:- T :-'■': ■!'■■' ■H . •< '■. ■ approximately, and tho numbor of months thoy run will bo somowhat tho sano - longor in tho southorn States! and shorter in tho nor thorn Statos. . MR". MARSHALL: When you divide that into tho Bill, tho'rovwill bo .a rujlo'i shock to the boys. ' I.boliovo you are going to makb some statement as to tho period? MR. CARPENTER: In order that wo nay talk about tho sane thing, I suggest that in tho figures you bring back this afternoon that you stato whether you havo calculated on a five months basis or whatever you havo figurod in order that - wo may not bo talking about different things. It is evident that boforo wo got down to actual figures thore is going to be some discussion. But a sound basis is tho full sotting forth of all the facts. Wo will givo you tho exact figures on horses, goats, cattle and sheep as soon as we come in this afternoon. -Vic -will then continuo foos for a short time for discussion and go into policies in order that wo may fit one into tho v other. !..,..• - ■ Nov/, gentlemen, boforo wo adjourn I am going to ask all of tho delegates, both of local boards and Stato boards, that aro hore, to remain in their seats until they havo filled out tho registration card, and that they hand the registration card in either to a mombor of the Grazing Sorvice at the door or at the tablo, in order that we may havo a list of tho delegates who are present. Lot me remind you, all delegates will be roquostcd to bo in their seats by 1:30, but that others will bo asked not to como into tho room until 2:00 in order that the Statos may take parts of this room for their State to elect their Stai^e1 Chairman and got their preliminary acquaintance which 'will1 bo perfected 'this evening at 7:30. At 2:00 o'clock, and that moans exactly 2:00, the conference will bo rooponed. Tho delegates will talco thoir respoctive seats, and the audience also, and this discussion will bo continuod, '■'■ At 2:30 any desiring to attend on tho Roof Garden,, tho discussion of salo, leaso, and exchange of lands, at which First Assistant Secretary Walters \ arid Mr* Have 11 will bo present, may loavo this oonforenco and go to that, or they can go direct to that at tho timo if thoy wish. MR. METZ OP WYOMING: I wanted to call. your attention to the matter of . Section 14 and 15. A groat many of tho men who wont to take part in tho meeting hore want to also talco part 'in tho other. Practically everybody wants to take part in both. Wo wanted to talco two minutos and ask if wo could not set that timo somotimo in the afternoon right here in tho same meeting, at tho scone place, with the samo officers, so we could bo at both mootings. I am very much interested, and I know a groat many othors are, in this Section 14 and 15, and also in the organization under your district. I respectfully ask for a revamp in this schodulo. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Motz has suggestod that a largo numb or of those who • aro interested in Sections 14 and 15, salo, leaso and exchange of lands, do not wish to loavo this assembly to attend tho other mooting. I will. ask in gonoral • whether that is -tho sontimont ,— ' that you do not wish those meetings to go on at tho samo timo. Is it tho gonoral fooling that wo should not havo tho sale, leaso and exchange moetings whilo this is going on? Let mo hoar by "aye". AUDIENCE: Ayo 1 MR. CARPENTER: I will ask Mr. Waltors if it will suit his and Mr. Havoll's convenience to open tho mooting on tho Roof Garden at 5:10. \ MR. CARPENTER: (After a short whispe rod discussion with Mr. Walters). Mr. Walters suggosts that- that part of tho timo bb takon in tho assombly. Is that your wishes? SEVERAL VOICES: Make it' horO. MR., CARPENTER: It is suggestod that instoad of having it in another room that we attempt to finish discussion of policies at 4:30 and thon go into tho \ ii '" i'"'iiii i ' iiii'm" i"i "i " i r "it ■■! i r i i ii i ii n'iii|>iin ' ii in 1 1' i oomplimcnts of the Season, I am, Sincoroly yours, Elbort D. Thomas." I also havo a message from Congressman Taylor for whom the Bill was namod and one of the sponsors, as follows: "Kindly extend my cordial greetings to tho Vfostcm Stockmen. I heartily join with all their frionds in wishing them a successful meeting. They have the opportunity of making tho public domain grazing lav-r a great success and I will gladly do everything poss?.ble to help thorn. Edward T. Taylor.'' MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I am going to make a brief summary, and then a statement about a matter that has not como into the talk on finances. Then I believe you will agreo wi£h me that for tho present we had hotter leavo finances alone and proceed to tho matter of policies with which it is interlaced, then como back to it in order that wo may havo somewhat of a whole picture for the State Committees to consider when you assemble tonight. Tho matter of local assessments has not been mentioned ho ro; that was in essence a service fee for \vhich you wero supposed to got back what you put in for your further use and paymont. As you know, collection and disbursement of those foes was stopped at my roquest, tho reason being the question of whether or not theso funds wore Federal moneys, and whether, as Federal funds, thoy should bo covered in tho Federal Treasury. If any of. you ever had any experience with any monoy that anybody ever claimed should go into tho Fodoral Treasury, you cortainly would not want to go any further rath it until an authoritative voico said it was all right, because even though they may bo ovor- crowdod at Ft. Leavenworth I am suro they would build extra rooms for distinguished visitors. (Laughtor), Tho opinion is in course of preparation, and Mr. Walters was assured ho could have it before ho came out here, and he has now wirod to get it, and wo aro hoping before this conference ends that a definite announcement can be made. No propor view of finances can be taken until tho grazing fee and tho service fee, if you wish to call tho assossmont that, can bo all taken up and considered together. That is the reason I montion it horo in order that you nay havo, in your deliberations and your study of this matter, theso facts. I would like to ask if thore aro any questions on tho assessments before wo take up the matter of policies? MR. Y.TLLIAMS OF UTAH: ' V'o have just completed a caucus of District 3 Grazing District of Utah, wherein .and under the aclvico of the administrators during the board sessions of our board meetings, wo levied an assessment of one cent a head on sheep raid five cents a head on cattle — that was for the year — for administrative purposes for tho benefits of tho local organization to bo expended ■■ ■■ ■ i mm^m^mmmm A-21 for tho purpose of the advisory board. In our meeting hero today the graziers of District 3 have pone on record as supporting this levy that has been mado, or this assessment. Vihilo wo have approximately two-thirds cr a little better of tho assessment collected, wo find it can not bo tied to tho license as v/as f'ivon us the improssion at the timo it was made, I think, notwithstanding, they boliovo it is essential and we have gone on record that they collect and continue to pay this assessment for administrative purposes in the local boards for those bonefits. Wo make this recommendation to you, Mr. Carpenter, and v/o hope it will meet "with your approval. MR. CARPENTER; Thank you, Mr. Williams. And I assure you that the wishes of the local board in this respect have my hearty approval. However, I fool at this time that the matter o'f finances .-raid foos, assessments and budgets - that wo must exhaust every angle, and thcro are a number of possibilities in which tho matter may bo finally sottled. Just to give you one thought, tho Taylor Act was passed by mon who had in view the Mi zpah- Pumpkin District in Montana. In tho Mi zp ah- Pumpkin District in Montana — Mr. Nick Monto, tho State Range Conmifsioncr., is here, one of the principal organizers of that district — thoy have rorao railroad, Stato, and Government land; thoy organized into an association and entored into a coopera- tive agreement with the Government and tool: over these lands, and their foe, which I think runs $1.25 per yoar for cattle whereas it has boon averaging about $1.50, includes the servico and tho grazing and everything in one fco. It may be possible that with the development of this Act, you will prefer to come under Section 9 of tho Act, which says that local State associations in grazing districts can enter into cooperative agreements w/.th the Government. In thoso districts where tho na.joi ?.£;>• of tho Irnds are nov. Federal lands, it ,v» may be moro agrocablo and ooiworj.os.t to have -'-ho stock associations ontor into a cooperative agreement. I mako this suggost\ on because thoro is before us in the next few hours a number of divergent developments of '"-ho way this is going to bo handled. Wo have started in a fairly s:m.v.;.o way, Y'fhero there is fifty, sixty or ninety porcent of tho lands public lend wo nave, so to speak, been following one pattorn only. It must bo patent to you that in cases where there is much public domain lands, tax default, county lands, etc., that the local associations arc going to have to, by, partnership agreements or corporations, take over most of tho lands. Furthormoro, that as allotments are made on the range, say between cattle and shoep, that tho cattlo section is going to be interested in the rent of the lands in tho cattlo section, and tho sheep section is going to be interested in tho ront of tho lands in tho sheen section. In some districts in Nevada where one or two individuals havo been carry- ing heavy leases of checker-board land, those individuals should bo relieved of that burden, and the association, if it is joint use, or ono section of the association, if it is. cattlo or sheep, should take that over and prorato the charge . I do not wish to confuse tho issue we arc discussing by suggesting many developments. It soems to mc very advisable that wc should' take just what wo have, and, so to speak, squeeze all the juice out of it. Let us see what wo can do with this pattern, bearing in mind that the Taylor Act lots us form local associations and use the pattern wo have started as a stepping stono. Nov; with that explanation of tho matter of fees, and in order that wo can fit in what we have to the pattorn of the whole thing, I am goin- to launch the question of policies, and the first matter on your sheet, which is od. Section 2, you will notice is tho mattor of swapping Classes II and III under temporary licenses. You will recollect, gentlemen, that at tho Denver mooting, when tho rules and regulations under Soction 2 wore submittod to tho stockmen as thoy woro at Salt Lake City, at Rono, and at Rifle, that your consont v/as given that Class I licensees should bo thoso with commonsurate proporty and priority, dependent commonsurato proporty and priority, that Class II, bocauso v/o were taking care of tho industry as it existed and not as wc expected to have it got before the Taylor Act under Soction 3 was put into effect, should bo those with priority ,. I A-22 vdth adoquato commonsurato property, whoreas the third class, which was to bo taken care of only whon Class II was taken care of in full, and Class I, of course, was takon caro of in full, woro those people vdth commensurate property and without priority. The so-called "boginnors", those peoplo who, fortunate or unfortunato, havo not boon in tho livostock business. You will recollect that at tho Denver mooting the foar was oxprossod that after those classes were nado that they would bo loft that way forever. Tho promise was made, according to my understanding, that after a year, after Class I had been detorninod , after wo had gone through this great appraisomont of users, that wo would be in a position to roverso Classes II and III, and after thoso vdth dependent commensurato property and prior uso were takon care of that the next class that would be admitted would bo those vdth dopondent commensurate property and with- out priority, and until and if they wore taken caro of, thoso vdth priority but vdth inadequate commensurato property would have to wait. That is the first question that wo have bofero this conforonco. Are you ready to go ahead and have tho now circular, ;vhioh v/r 11 supplant Circular No. 2, name the clashes for temporary licenses to be Class 7.,. thoso vdth dopondent commensurate property and prior use, Class II those vdth dependent commensurato property without prior uso, Class ill those vdth prior uso without adequate commensurate property? The question is now open. MR. HENDRICKS OP NEVADA: Before you get any further along in this discussion, I would liko to kind of find out how wo stand from the districts that woro organized? You went out and cauglrc tho horses on the range and loft us the horses vdth nothing to pull* Vflioro do wc stand in voting? MR. CARPENTER: I wish to givo the conferenco Mr, Hondrick' s position- Ho is boyond tho eighty million acre limitation in District 3 in Novada, and legally ho' will bo recognized whenovor Congress expands tho acre-age so he can bo taken in logally. There is a term in lav; tka'c appLiios in his case= Pie is a dc facto dolcgato. Ho is hero because he is horu; ond if the Nevada Delegation choose to let him voto, of course it is up bo ".;\:ic'l co ?ay. Every State vdll settle tho qualifications of thoir own delogato.;. Ft. 11 that bo satisfactory to tho conven- tion? Will that bo satisfactory to you, Mr« Hundxv gJlj ? MR. HENDRICKS: I think so, Mr« Carpenter. I juct wanted to get my standing. There are some very important quostions coming up hero. I am very much interested in all of thorn — fees and regulations and priority, and all of that. I didn't want to be talking out of turn. MR. CARPENTER: By the way, Mr. Hendricks is Chairman of the Arizona State Committoo. All the members of tho State Committee aro invited to tako part in tho discussion as v/oll as intorestod stockmen whothcr thoy are delegates or not,' so that tho meeting is free for all in that regard. In the matter of voting it vdll be up to the Novada Committee. MR. HENDRICKS: That is tho thing I want to get at. You might talk a long' while, but when it comes to voting that is what counts. ,/■ MR. CARPENTER: I expect wo had better havo this settlod definitely. Do you wish to havo each State dotorminc tho right to say who votes, or would you rather havo it determined from the Chair or from tho convention? I vdll hear a inotion in that regard. MR. TERRITT OF MONTANA: I novo that each State bo allowed to sottlc tho question as to who casts tho vote in each State. MR. LIGGETT OF COLORADO: I second the motion. MR. FRANCIS OF UTAH: I think that motion is a little unfair in this way, that ono State might set up crodcnti'als which mi, -hi bo cliff oront from another Stato and therefore givo adva?;itages or disadvantages, whatcvor tho caso may be. Therefore, I novo that tho Chairman sot up the ore "'.ciitials " for the delegatos hero. MR. CARPENTER: The motion is out of order, l.'.r, Francis, bocauso thcro is a motion before tho house. Howovor, wo vdll consider your romarks as an argu-.ont against tho motion if wo may. ■■ A- 23 MR. FRANCIS: I would like to novo this as an amendment to the notion, MR. THORNLEE OF UTAH: Second. MR. CARPENTER: The amendmont is seconded. Any discussion upon the oncndncnt? MR. CIIRISTENSEN OF CALIFORNIA: From the information and instructions sent out by the Department thoro were four representatives of each advisory board to represent their rospoctivo advisory boards here. Representatives have boon duly chosen by the advisory boards to represent the people in their district. I really believe that any voting should bo hold by the representatives who were delegated to appear at this convention in line with your previous instructions. MR. CARPENTER: Any further discussion? Are you ready for the question? The question is on the amendment to the motion, which was that the qualifica- tion to vote should be rulod on by the Chair and not sottlod by tho States separately. VOICE: Vvho may vote on this question? MR. CARPENTER: ' If it comes to a close vote, wo vail voto by voico, and than if they call for a poll vote,. I will rule on that question when it comes up. Those in favor of the motion signify by saying "ayo" Thoso opposed signify by the sane sign .... The no's havo it. Wo will now take up the original motion which you made, to the effect that the representatives from each State should settle tho qua] if i cations as to who should voto in tho State caucus. I wish t;o make this clear. V.hilc they can vote in the Stato caucus, if the representatives- of chat Stato desire /to let them, votes talcon in hero, in this meeting, -..t.'.].". be confined to the accroditod delegates. This refers only to the cave .-: cy Sl.afes and net what occurs in this room because we are already committed to acoro<1?utcd del)go.tos in this room. The motion is carried that within tho Stnto cciuov..-sos r;b.o State representatives can fix the qualifications to voto. Y-hon it comets here, only the State delegates can vote. MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: IVho aro going to bo considered as tho accredited delegates to voto? MR. CARPENTER: Tho actual delegates will be tho four representatives from each of tho 34 grazing districts that are legally organized and only them. Aro there any further quostions? . . , If not, wc come back to tho question of whether you arc ready to swap Classes II and HI 3M tho order in which they shall be taken caro of for temporary licenses in the year 1936. MR. ANDERSON OF UTAH: Before wo go into discussion of that question, I would like Mr. Carpenter to answer this: In determining this order of proferenco, is that a mattor for this group to dotermino by our action or is it one which must bo controlled by tho conditions already in the Taylor Grazing Act? MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Anderson asks whether any action of this committee could or would havo any effect on placing these fOa&sos. My answer is this, that tho license set-up is not a set-up under Section 3 of the Act at all, It is a temporary set-up under the Secretary's power tc do any and all things to carry out tho purpose and intent of the Act undor Section 2 of the Taylor Act, and having such wide latitudo by those words ho has chosen to sot up a temporary sot-up that doos not follow Section 3 of the Act, and in his discretion the desiros of the stockmen will have a very groat effoct, so that it is true, Mr. Anderson, that it is vital and very necessary that wo know your wishes, and if your wishes are followed they will hove a controlling effect on tho circular when it is put out. Do I inako that plain? So you arc deciding something hero now which will bo quite a controlling factor when tho thing is considered and put into the new circular, providing youf« stay on a license basis for this year. Later on we aro coming into term pomi'ts, so it is very necessary that wo know your wishes r A- 24 MR- CONWAY OF COLORADO: After li stoning to the gontlonon horo today and the people have oxprossed thoir opinion that they arc desirous of going on a permanent pemit basis, I foel like expressing nyself on this Class B and C, and the fact that ovorybody has cxprosscd their opinion that they would like to got on a solid foundation on the use of tho rango undor tho Taylor Act, I would like to say that I an in favor at tho present tine of putting Class B ahead of Class C on this classification. I feel like tho quicker wo nako this change tho quickor wo aro going to get on a solid foundation. So I say, let's got it going, change tho classification and get on a permit basis and stop this argunont wo aro having hero today. MR. MdlNTYRE OF COLORADO: Doesn't the gentleman ncan Class B instead of Class C? ' MR. CARPENTER: Put pcoplo with dependent commensurate property without prior use ahead of peoplo with prior use but no commons urate property, but leave in tho first class those that have both conr.ionsurato property and p uso. nor MR. WINDER OF COLORADO: Doos that nean that tho nan who has prior uso should bo given tho opportunity to qualify before the nan who has no comnon- suratc property with no prior use? MR. CARPENTER: That is oxactly the question. As long as you koop tho license systen going, you givo tho advantage to the nan with, tho prior uso and tho dependent commensurate property, the idea being to give hin such period as he needs to have in order for the prior users that wish to stay in tho business to have their dependent property in tho right anount, so it will not nako any difforenco about prior uso bocauso tho existing industry will have shaped thonsolvos up until they have tho dependent commensurate properties that control tho range, and then to go undor Section .3 of tho Taylor Act which will take care of then. In the neantine you havo cortain properties. My cstinato is — there is a rather low percentage of the whole, but soiio properties -- every now and then you hear of then — that havo not had any uso of tho rango, although totally dependent on the rango, and they want to know how long they are going to have to say out of this picture ?hoy wore told definitely that they could not get a smell of it for tho year 1935, and for those that had even a shadow of it would bo taken care of. Now we aro coning to 1936. Do you want 'to put peoplo without .comnonsurato property that is adequate ahead of the people with dependent commensurate property without prior uso, both of thon to start in back of those that had both? MR. TOBIN OF NEVADA: In passing on applications in District 2, in Nevada, wo were told by representatives of the Grazing Department that those who qualified as Class C applicants wore automatically rejected. If we nako this reversal proposed in this circular,, what will becone of those people that are in Class II now? Will they be automatically rejected? MR. CARPENTER: In case the classes ar ; rovorsod, then Class I will be takon care of in full, and if Class II is taken care of in full, Class III will then be taken care of, but Class III will nob be taken care of until tho other two classes aro takon care of first. There nay be range enough for all thrco classes and there nay not. Practically all of you took care of Class I, and quite a bit of II this yoar. Nearly all of you. went to Class II. You practically all took caro of Class I, and you took caro of a lot of people that were then on connensurato property. This is pushing then a little further down tho "scale. MR. YtfUNNERY OF COLORADO: I think you havo already partially answered the first question I wanted to ask you, and that was, isn't that according to our genoral rules adopted last spring that this position should be rovorsod when wo cone to action next period? A-25 MR. CARPENTER: It is my understanding that wo wore committed to rover so those classes at Denver. However, I offor the question to this assembly. MR. JOHNSON OF UTAH: I take it, gentlemen, that we are asked to decide whether wo will perpetuate what has been known as the "transient man, the travelling nan, or the dosort nan," in fact over and above the stoclomn who has boon in the stock business and owns the ranches. It becomes a question today whether through this license period we had not bettor go ahead and ta.ee care of the follow that has tho stock. As I understand you, that will bo taken caro of when wo go on a permit basis. MR. CARPENTER: The question was to talco care of the follow with property ahead of tho follow who had prior uso. MR. JOHNSON OF UTAH: It seons to no at this time wo should take care of the nan with the livestock, otherwise wo go on record as setting up a new group of livestock-nen in the West who are not even financed or can not finance _ themselves to stock tho range and who leave tho dosort nan the nan with prior use,without a hone. It soons to no it should go on as it is during tho license period and let that third nan still sit in with his priority on the range. I think I would bo disinclined to leave the stock without a homo as long as it is as indefinite as it is now* I believe wo should take care of the stock and we should serve longer notice then ono year on those non to liquidate, it soons to ne that the present arrangement is most satisfactory. MR. WEBB OF ARIZONA: I can't possibly, with tho wildest flight of fancy, disengage the priority of right fron connonsurability. It seens to no that thoy are so closely united that thoy nust bo considered. Now I have, if I nay be permitted to digress, referenced a personal natter. I know of a case in tho State Land Department in Arizona in the courts for seven years and ultimately decided by a Supreme Court 3udge who .mow no more about the real interests in the natter than 762,000 of these people hero. One week after this decision was rendered, the contestant who got the decision ov.r no cane around me and wanted §10,000 for the things he won in that court °"eof seven years. I didn't buy hin foolishly out. I didn't think he would sell then to anybody else, but he did, and he got less than {2,000 benefit of it and I lost at least $20,000 in the transaction. Now I know entirely through the caso that he was only contending for something with which lie could hold me up, 1 knew it, couldn't prove it. All right, he get away with it, and there you are. ' Now it is absolutely all wrong to consider for a moment that these .chi colors that try to get in on tho legitimate users of the public domain wore handicapped. Vie know darn well what they intend to do, but we can't prove it. Now it is all wrong . Now in a resolution in Graham County, the Gila.. Water Shed in Arizona - I had the distinct honor of drawing the resolution — providing this:' That we ask that a f razing district be created with this understanding ana with this condition, that the Federal Government, with a representative there present, understood that the State of Arizona was to have first consideration in the selection and the exchange of public lands, or unless that privilege of our resolution was recognized wo would not ask for inclusion in a district and with that inclusion we asked for a creation of the GilaTTator Shed District with the absolute understanding, with the representatives of the Government them present, that the State was to have first right on tho exchange of land m order ' to consolidate the different districts of land. We arc still for that. V:e are still against everything else, and wo want it distinctly understood that we are first for Arizona, first for the State land control of Arizona, and then we are for the Taylor Bill. MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Webb. MR. WEBB: Now we want Arizona State lands all over the State of Arizona in ono district, and when that is dene then we are for the Taylor Bill heart and soul MR. CARPENTER: Thank you again. Now before I recognize Mr. Greer and A-26 Mr. Lublcen of California -*- just a ninuto --,1 don't v/ant to get to talking about two things, Arizona and Nov/ Mexico havo a situation that these men will sincerely and honestly talk about that is just as different in the South and the North as black f ron white. When you have a 12-mcnth range how can you do anything but adjudicate as you go onto it? I havo heard of cases whore they have had then fenced up for a number of years. Now that is not what thuso gontlemon hero from Utah, Orogon, Utah, Wyoming and Colorado aro. talking about at all. They aro living in an ontircly different country, so I v/ant to keep this thing fron missing firo if I can. While wo aro not going to shut off any delegates, I take it that tho natter of nomadic sheep, which they do not have to take care of in certain localitios, is nevertheless an important one. In the northern country prior use and commensurate properties havo boon shown in many instances, and whothcr wo are going to rooognizo them or not is the question boforo the house. That is the reason I wished to make those remarks aftor what Mr. Webb said because I can see his point of view, and it completely misses firo when you are considering tho situation up in othor States in the north. MR. GREER OF WYOMING: Do these permits follow tho land or the livestock? MR CARPENTER: Onco and for all, the land and water. (Applause). MR* TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: In order to got this question boforo tho house, I move that tho ardor of preferential or preference classes for licenses be as follows : 1. Qualified applicants with dependent commensurate property with prior uso. ; 2. Qualified applicants with dependent commensurate property but without prior uso. 3. Qualified applicants who have prior use but not adoquate commensurate property, MR. CARPENTER: Tho motion is made that Classes II cmd III bo reversed, that for tho year 1936 tho owner of dependent commensurate property with prior use remain Class I, comnonsurate property without prior use Class II , and prior use but not adequato commons urate property Class III. MR. SHERMAN OF COLORADO: I second the motion. MR. STAAS OF UTAH: I boliovo we are going to do grave injustice to a lot of people in a lot of States. We get lot of sheep — lot of sheepmen who havo not got a lot of proporty. Now if we do this and eliminate, I believe it is going to be a great injustice to all taxpayers to strike out all those people without prior use. By this movement you are going to ruin a lot of fanilios and deprive a lot of old people and old womon. If you eliminate all those people' then they vail be on the mercy of everyone. I know a lot of people in my county who, if you climinato those people, God knows how they are going to livo. Wo have got livestock-men and sheepmen who have plenty commensurate proporty, how aro those people going to take care of themselves? I believe it would bo a groat injustice if wo eliminate those classes. The best way is to let thorn stay on until wo got out of tho depression. I beg you don't vote for this because you are going to ruin a lot of good families in the State of Utah. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Staas has raised the question as to what is going to become of the people with stock but without tho property, I imagine there aro some with tho property but without tho stock who wish to talk. MR. ALLRED OF UTAH: I happon to bo a representative of tho section of tho country that was formorly an Indian Reservation until 30 years ago. It has boen w „««+ 4-n th~t country v/crc being grazod settled since that tino, and the ranges ^^°0^0.^0°^0S^V,y , thousand at tho tine this country was thrown open. ^ ^ ^ * sJ.p nnd cattle and a people located on ranches oporatin^ in a ^ V^ ., ^ inpo?siblo to o very snail percentage using «» '^J^V under these conditions. \.o r ToL^Stin^or f iS tinrror0pasLr, of the Taylor Grasing Act, hoping thai 5H!»SfS5» tho ranch undertakes. ,ow ^ ,e ha.o this undo* JJB -j - -«££, on J* ^fiT s r0 as s£2 x-o 3/^ - v^^^rpSr . in 1936 those toe would bo .rovo«od ana th Ian ^ ^ roeoGnltlon ranch holding and -^^f^Jl^Lurato property, which is all we aftor tho nan with priority wiu expect you to do. Ihis nan spoke of a .^-^^h^euld^o thrown^euW ^ncss That is very true. That 'vail Tbo the case at ^ rf businoss ^ tho denied the' range adjacent to ^ £££"• ^ only askirlG f 0r what we a6rocd en ryr^hatCruld^S- second consideration. . ones coning on. All in i-v it< the resolution say "no . . . • iho ,• • s~„9 T ivish to state tho notion again. Tho Do you wish to call for a division? I wish to c1qss j ^^ notion vis this, as nado by Mr. ^^J^"^^, that Class II be those people with prior use and deP°»f£ °™S£ these 'vith priority without question. , MR. TAYLOR OF HEW MEXICO: With the consent of ny second, I^ouM ico^ anond ny notion by adding three wer ^^n the Class IX ^ ^^ & ^ like for ny notion to road as follows. ^1111 u __ a smll vdth dependent connonsurate property ^t without V£>* fo * _cnoral rulos technicality that I think yo «*«^0I^°h^0 plaood in Class I the free user and in the rules we have at tins tino wo na i should, in ny end wo have placed these other cla so A, B, a nd C^ ^ ^ ^ .f ^ opinion, bo that it rovorso tho position 01 Chair so holds. MR. CARPENTER: The free user was given a ^^^S^XSl^' *o are net considering bin in our ^scussion. J»« soon^ ^ Jf r;:^fi^uToua s: :£r.£ra£ i ^ «. **.!-. > -m «** tho question again. commensurate property - and by nan i h question up and vote connonsurate property and prior us . *™f vil • for thc class I applicant on then by classes. How nany are in favor of 1, L and v/ith prior- those with dependent connonsurate pro porty °^r position signify by saying use? Those in favor of paving h mxnth o Oq ^ ^ ^ ^^ ^ "aye" Thoso m favor of ^1;^> aL property but vdthout prior uso qualified applicants v/ith dopondont connonsurate propoi y signify by saying "ayo" . . • • VOICE'- I think you should have included the anendnont stated by the nalcer or the notion' Ho said "dependent property within the district . s hit,, tau! or T didn't catch that. I MR. CARPENTER: I bog your pardon, Mr. Taylor. I i .n ^^ can't at this tino accept that «££»* ^causo it is^o ^ ^ ^ another subject wo aro going to- take up. .vo wvv b another heading. ■gr A-28 TOICE! X would U,to a* you i^-td^a°t £*«££ BiU^la Bill itsolf or by tho audioncc horo? It aoona anstror this question. Section 3, but as yet, undox- th c lioons ° «*£^ * tho ordor of preferred Section. For that reason ttasaosonbly « ^ to this quostion under classes under licenses. I an goinG to £fc and nOGativo votes under each three heads, and I an q>U»6. *° £* ^ erred class taken care of before head - these whe believe that the fi rot pr « dopondent connensurato anybody else is consid ored should be those *g^ „ g^iff^sS :"."(- «**« ^os>- Tho "ayos have "• Those in favor pf tnkin. care of the follo^c classes gj-^^' * b,s been taken care of boforV ^ethor^sc Qualified but without priority -- dependent co^ensurate P^SV^°*£^'tt£^o «*« X in sr'ticficd C1nGnlfy these in favor of takinG caro of hm first at tor ^ ^ Do by saying "aye" .... Opposed the sane siGn you vdsh a division? AUDIENCE: No. next • suratc property goes? „. of P-m, « u rsr -.0 - xr SK-sr" connonsuratc property mil lot nin, Biggs. .. Bjof , „. *-«1--«rs23' into that at this tine. After all, wo are dealmG with two sides, as Mr. Staas said. Ho presented the views of the nan vrith livestock but no property. ,o havo got to cut ono or the othor. Vihat do you think about making a classification of dependent properties for the yoar 1936? MR. JONES OF OREGON: I believe the Class II nen, or Class B as you call hin should got very favorable consideration. This nan has not got Proper commensurate property, has had this trouble for the past five years just like , his neichbor in Class I. AssuninC that you havo a district and throw this Don out of business, and your neichbor isn't ablo to replace hin on the range, what is your Tax Collector going to do? Y.hat is the nan with the hay going to do? Our forefathers recognized priority. Our Oregon State laws recognized oriority use. I don't sec where there is any justice in deviating fron ^thax policy. In OroCon we have several good citizens that would be Class B. If those nen are forced into the market, it neans it is going to affect the sheep people cis a wholo. Every head of livestock forced into the narket establishes a now low in livestock values. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Jones is a livestock-nan in OroEon, and he was troubled with a cold year. Sono of you in the back didn't got it. I an just going to sunnarizc. He called attention to the fact that the nen who did not have .he connensurate property in many cases had had a hard tine for the last five years, accumulated debts, heavy taxpayers, in nany cases purchasers of hay, in o^ner words, he was helping the community, and Mr. Jones felt that a Greater consiacra- tion should be shown hin. MR. "WILSON OF WYOMING: I wantod to remark a while ago that you could not see ny "perfect thirty-six", but I didn't raise ny voice. Aftor all, it seems to ne that while you nako general regulations, if we are going to have this economy, it is a question going to bo decided by each local advisory board. We have an entirely different situation between the States on both questions and as between districts within the States. I don't think it can be decided m any other way. MR. CARPENTER- I want to sav in explanation, Mr. Wilson suggests that this hos to be decided district by district. I believe it should be, but I believe this assenbly should crystalize opinion in the natter- It is fair to hin and fair to the rest of you, and that is the reason wo ore discussing it. l«o vail spend a few no re minutes on it. MR. ORCUTT OF MONTANA: I an heartily in accord vdth hin. The question I want to ask is how can it be arranged so that this question can bo decided by the local advisory board? Havo you a suggestion how it can be arrcngcu so it can bo docided? A-30 MR. CARPENTER: I can soc that we can adopt an optional rule, .-- a rule that each ^totcan adopt this yoar if they vdsh to, or loavo it alone, but xf thoy care to do it, thoy can talco it. MR. ANDERSON OF UTAH: 1 represent a larCo nunbor of v/ool &™*** £™* Wond District 1 in Utah to winter. Hot enough winter range for the stock vo ^don ttJVw« range in Utah. Vto drifted into Nevada. They accepted us . hod on the sun...or ran o thirtv or forty voarn used that vdntor range node us wolcone, and wo havo tor tmrty or «v y ^ortainlv would in connection vdth our connon ran* properties in Utah. Jo cert "nl^-ouic i object to naking a different classification of our properties in re^rd our winter range. MR. HUGHES OF COLORADO: Vte have sonewhat the sane situation in Colorado. V-o have to toke into consideration what the passing of *f° ^ J^^rd both fron the standpoint of those who havo gone across the Colorado lino ana those X are staying at hone within its lino. There are approximately 1 0 000 1; cone iron Colorado, or grazing in Colorado in -™. f ^^ connonsurate property located in Colorado on the sane water shed as the Utah lard. They follow down that water shed and vanter graze m Utah. Mow iyou -re not going te pewit that property in Colorado for grazing in Utah, you ». aonit that those nen have a prior use of the range, «-t they have f equate eormonsurate -roporty in sono districts raid necessarily .hey nust bo ^ivcn tneir nrer°ta share of rralins rights in districts where their property is located even though that neons a very serious cut in the graziers who are using and have used in the past that land in Colorado. You can't put those sheep off the ranGe. because they have both the °™" surate property and prior use. what are you going to do in Colorado with the 136 000 head of sheep that, have been using vanter GrazmG in Utah Mo. 6 If we h-ve rot to nake roon for then, the privilege of grazing on public domin is Zt to be so smll that it will not be of value te anyone as I view it m the districts where those 136,000 head of sheep graze. It was adnitted to the stocknen that lines on the grazing :£■**«£ W°[° was no authority to carry the district across the State lino*. In so la *£■> lands of the United States of Anoriea are concerned, State lines are not rv.xonai. I think you vail all agree on that. There is only one fair way to view tho situation, and that is to take the past as the criterion of .what wo should do in properties that are dependent or not dependent, based on the past use that has been node of that prope rty and if we violate that principle wo will find certain areas that vail oe in a sad f x n so far as public grazing is concerned. I think we had better -lentil a pemanent set-up is node. While wc are having the tenporary license until ;,e nave found exactly what the carrying capacity of. these ranges, are who can be cut off and who is entitled to renain, we had better not rate new Great innovations as has been nado in connection with tho public domain grazing area. Tho nen fron Colorado went onto those grazing areas, grazing on the U.S.A. They have nado their investnents in land, thoy havo their connonsurate property. You have drawn arbitrary lines. On one side or the other side of this arbitrary line vour rights are to bo governed accordingly. Until we are ready lor a pemanent s t-up, ten yoar pernits as viewed by tho Act, we had hotter follow as closely as we can past custon or usage and net put a nan out now and find a few years fron now that ho was unjustly put out of the picture. MR. -ALTERS OF WYOMING: It scons to ne the procedure hero being follow d entirely disrupts what has gone before, because in our district wed rulec thrt we allowed 600 licenses and tho people there are now grazing the range ~7 A-31 similar to what they have in the past. IVc have no authority to onforco the rules that were promulgated by our board, and wo find that in nany casos there have been flagrant abuses./ Vie have prouui.gc.tod a rule which made it nocessary to make reductions in a herd over a period of years* Nov/ wo aro adopting a different rule. V.:o have chanced the priority by classes. My quostion now is whothor it won't bo necessary in the face of that to go back. My constituents will say that all is lost and must be gone over again. The liconsos were predicated upon the rules then in existence. Nov: our rules will be different, and the licenses will have a different basis entirely. MR. CARPENTER: Mr.. Walters has raised the question that wo are adopting a new set of rules to guide tho boards by In 1936 than in 1935. T.'e certainly aro. There is no question but what wo are making changes in then, and I don't want anybody hore to think we aro not, raid every resolution hore means thousands of dollars to hundreds of people Tho point we can't get away fron is this: V.'o started in to aim at a certain objective which the Taylor Act gavo us, that the rights were to go with grazing land and water. It said nothing about prior use.. That sinply could not have been put in without a tronendous liquidation and bankruptcy. In order to give the existing industry a tapering off period, a method to got right and come under tho Taylor Act and have this dependent' commensurate property, the license system was started and cut as nearly as possible to fit tho industry as it was and not as it would have to be to conform to tho Taylor Act. Now bit by bit wo are trying to change this picture so that when wo take the final transition and go into term permits there will not have to be a great wrench to do it. Nov/, Mr. Walters, tho Taylor Act says that preferences — this is Section 3 of tho Act — proforcnecs for the issuance of grazing permits shall be given to those within or near a district. For theyear 1935 we did not consider "near" in any sense. Now we are bringing up tho quostion of whether you wish your temporary liconsos granted in 1936 to continue disregarding tho word "near" or whether you wish to take a little further step toward Section 3 of the Taylor Act and term pormits and put -into a second class those who arc outside of the district, not nocesso.rily to bar them but to put them in a class behind those /. that were in a district or immediately contiguous thereto. I want you to plainly see what you are doing if you do it. ■ ' A matter was brought up by a gentleman here that it might be left to the district board. If that is the wishes of the conference, that recommendation will be made to tho Secretary, but do you wish at this time to give the local board an option of giving a first class to those within a district and taking those without a district as a second class? Unless you take some action here on that tho local board as regards this question will bo in tho same place in 1936 as in 1935. The question is whothor you wish to give tho local board a chanco to mako a Class I and Class II, according to location of property. MR •WALTERS" OF WYOMING: In explanation cf tho former statement, in our district a great many who are going out, pursuant to a rule promulgated by us, and arc acquiring expensive properties to run thoir holdings, they are of the belief that tho rules now in effect are to be tho ones that aro heroafter going to bo the basis of their permit. It is not fair to thorn to leave them assume that they can go out and acquire properties and then find out wo are wrong. They arc outside of the district in come cases. MR. CARPENTER: That is a fair question because wo have got to deal fairly with both sides on this. MR. REDD OF UTAH: My good friend, Dan Hughes, raised tho question, with which wc can agree ,.. who live in District 6, Utah. Ho raised the point that v/o should follow past practice or customary use of tho range in determining our — ' A-32 whatsoovor. , «* « i «. «r * .r^USKU SUr S535 ? western Colorado, you can see it ^ Lt-vcon four and fivo million acres of ssxsr eve » b4r £°Lf s«s^k -1"- that section depends entirely upon the l^ostock ^u^^ /rQU 100 'to 150 of it is off tho railroad, part of the towns off the railrc.a roi miles. V;o have boon discriminated affxtaet in tho mtter of aoquir^c *™h™nf°- Our only asset is tho sn^or ranGo we no, ^0 The gon : cnan vh asl ^that .,0 follow tho syston of followinG past l^otioo .ivxnfc l^°^onoo ^ ^ have boon ablo to qualify because ol Ui«r « sl°°»°°' C°° - £ qualifications their fams, for pernits .on notion* fc .rests £££«££ * bi£ ,,ay ,nd thoy have been ^° J^^^ . °^ we could not qualify. V/o are citizens ^tno Z27XT. IXlhe syste. of past practice thoy have Got both a sunncr ron^e and winter rango. first consideration to that rango. ■ I novo you, therefore, that Clr.ss A, under the mjor Class A those who have land or water within or contiCuous to the district, bo first satisfied. VOICE: Second. MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: Vrtiat do you mean by "near"? MR. CARPENTER: Innodiately adjacent to. MR- McINTYRE OF COLORADO: Sonetir.es a thousand niles in a circle during the year was tomed contiCuous, others 50, others a hundred. MR. CARPENTER: This definition will be the nearest definition of near- ncarcr-ncare st . MR. CLARK OF UTAH: Will you please define tho word "contiguous" before I conaonce? MR. CARPENTER: The word "contiguous" ni(:;ht not in all cases have to be teuchinc, but it would be so innediately near that you would call it bho fringe of tho district in the usual senso of the word fringe . VOICE: Define "fringe". \m C-PPFTITER- You aro roinr to have to use your cordon sense on that Gontl^n Vie aro-noHeinc to «to a hard and fast line, and yo, ,cnow what 1 noan when I say the distriot and tho innodiatc fringe. MR. COX OF UTAH: when tho boundary lines of ^eso various districts wore sot up, it was arbitrarily done. Mow, if wo aro GomS to arbitrarily define tn„t T A-33 word "near by using the word "contiguous", by so doing wo vri.ll arbitrarily bind the various boards to noko their arbitrary decisions fron an arbitrary ba-is not a basis of fact or condition, v/heroas if wo tako tho construction of the lav/ as is and use the word "within" or "near" tho district, it will lcavo tho boards opon to dotcrnino each individual case upon tho facts pertaining to that particular caso. Therefore, I on absolutoly against any such neasurc. MR. LEE OF IDAHO: Idaho has not been taking any very active, part in this discussion, but when you try to nakc rules that will govern ovor all of those States I confoss wo have to keep our fingers crossed. ■ In Idaho wo had to tako a great nany things into consideration, and we nadc our own rules up thoro before wo started in to classify, and those applicants fell into, you night say, two great classes. That was tho follow that had a year-round sot-up and was able to tako care of — cither ho had spring and sunnor range and ho had a place to go in the winter tine, he don't all tho tine raise hay but he had the rost of tho year that he was able to take of than. I think wo took a foir-nonth' s basis as the follow who was able to take care of that stock in that district boforc ho was cvon able to qualify as a Class A nan. I think you will nakc a nistako if you adopt rules hero without naking it very clastic and givo a groat deal of consideration to tho advisory boards of each immediate district. I know in our district there is nothing that you can do horo that will conpol those boys to notify a nan that ho has got to get out of business right away and put socio nan in businoss that docs not have tho stock. If he has the dopondont property and has the stock, of course, he gets sone consideration, but as I say wc found two great classes, and I think it will use all the range that will cono undor the Class A non. I think when the licenses arc classified wo will find out that practically every one of the users in that district will bo Class A non. The rest of the people that havo no Class A stock and that the Taylor Bill will autonatically put of businoss now. I wish, while I on on ny foot, to havo an opportunity to ask you not to nakc any arbitrary rules here that will go back and be incorp -rated in the regulations that wc nust conply with when wo do got ready to ask for this torn pornit that wo hope will cone at an early date. MR. ORCUTT OF MONTANA: I want to ask what this gontlcnan has just said fron Idaho. There is dynanitc in this point and it. should be passed very easy or quickly. I '-spook to Mr. Walters through you. I suggested that the advisory boards need powor. Right hero is the power you can give then under tho law. If you koop on recognizing aroas as they go further away fron your district, tho first thing you know you will bo cutting your uso of that area down because you havo got so nany cattle you will be just overcising. MR. CLYDE OF UTAH: ' I an vory nuch in favor of leaving this natter to the rospoctivo boards. I fool that it is inpossiblo for us to legislate as a group fo/ tho so various States to fit every condition. Mr. Redd just painted to you a picture of tho situation which is in his locality, which is probably right, I would lileo to paint for you a picture of our locality, or the district I roprcscnt, District 2 in Utah. Most of our pcmitt.es, that is speaking of shocp pemittoos, cone fron Utah County, Sanpete and ".Vasatch Countios. The so non have spent, hundreds of thousands of dollars in getting a sot-up for the livestock industry, lanbing grounds, sunnor rangos, forest pcrnits at a distance fron tho desert. It nakes a conplctc unit for this nan with invost- nont in another county to trail perhaps fifty to a hundred nilcs to a wintor range. They havo also on that wintor rango built water holes and have acquired property but not sufficient to qualify undor that now rule. The situation is this, that those non, individuals, ranchers who arc- located cnong the fringe of these districts, thoso farr.is perhaps located in Millard County or Jowott, these people who have had wheat — wo do not wish to discrininatc against then. They should cone in on an equal basis, but to give then now tho opportunity to cone in and demand a right when they have had nothing in tho livestock businoss only conr.ions urate property — they have had no livestock, and to cone in and givo then the preference right ovor thoso non back in anothor county who havo built up a sot-up, I fool would bo very unjust. ~r A-34 In District 2, we had a ruling — p'crhaps wo were not well info mod — that land within a district which was of the sane character, that is it was winter range, was not considered as commons urate property, thoreforo I feel that now to entirely turn ovor our rules and regulations it will throw District 2 into a chaotic condition, load I feel -that wo should by all moans not wreck. the outfits which have a complete sot-up and givo preforenco to the individual just becauso ho happens to livo on the fringe of tho doscrt. It will- ultimately ro to this extent, that it will be necessary for men who have lived in Wasatch and San Pete Counties to go and purchase the license of individuals who have ranches and no stock. It will throw those people into a speculative business. It will allow them to go out and sell to thoso men who arc already sot up in the business and have a full year-round sot-up * It will put them out of business and give this man a chanco'to sell at a speculative value his right to acquire this privilege Therefore, I think it would bo very advisable and wise to leavo it according to tho district* Perhaps the rule would work in Mr. Pcdd's district, but I believe it would work adversely to tho groator proportion of tho stock in tho State of Utah. MR. MILLER OF MONTANA: It seems to mo in thrashing out this question nobody wants to do anything to beat any other livestock-men. Our intorosts • arc varied, so varied that it is impossible to set up a rule which could be applied to every section of those 10 States. Thorcforc, I would like to make mention, if it is in order, that this natter of prior rights, prior use and commensurability bo roforrcd to the various districts within the States, to the boards of thoso districts » MR. COX OF UTAH: I would like to say a few words regarding that. These mon arc opposing Mr. Recto's motion, but I wonder if wo stop to consider the percentage of the people that aro affected both pro &nc\ con. I think from the statistics, in my opinion — of courso I haven't the facts — but in my opinion oighty por cent of the licensees and users of tho public domain live within the district and their properties arc within the district- and their livelihood • depends upon tho use of this rango, and I can't sec why v/o should permit 20^ of the nooplo to control tho range that 80^ of the people uso. I can soc no reason why big operators should be given a preference ovor small operators, and I wish to make an amendment to Mr. Rcdd's motion that it read "dependent. commensurate property within tho district". MR. CARPENTERs A motion has boon made to amend Mr. Rodd's notion in which dopondont commensurate proporty within the district would be given a prior classification — within or immediately near the district would be given a priority ovor properties outsido the district and in the fringe thereof. MR. JONES OF UTAH: Second tho motion. . • MR. CARPENTER: Tho motion has boon seconded raid now will be debated upon. MR. GREENFIELD OF VfYOMING: Tho law says preferences shall be given in tho issuance of grazing permits to those within or near a district* Land owners engaged in tho livostock businoss aro owners of water or water rights. Tho Act defines who are cntitlod to preferential rights. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Greenfield has raised the point that Section 3 scttlos this, and ho is correct. The point is whether you wish to adopt tho point and use it in temporary licenses in 1956, when wo aro not oporating under Soction 3. Do you want to take a stop that much closer to Section 3 at this tine? MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: I would like to ask Mr. Clyde as to which one of theso ordors that ho voted upon when v/o changed tho classification. V/o have now votod to put the man with commons urate property without prior use in Class B, or in tho socond class, eliminating or placing tho nan that has prior use but inadequate commensurate proporty in Class C. , I would like to have him answer tho question, which one of thoso ho voted upon. MR. CLYDE: I votod against as it was carried hero. igr T A-35 MR. WILLIAMS: I can soo in ny birdsoyc view of this some very treacherous conditions that arc Going to cntor into the livestock industry. I on proud to state hero for your interest, for your information, that I have voted against the ncasuro that has passed horo, for the simple reason we have got a lot of ncn, particularly in District 3, that in the past havo nado their livelihood out of the livestock businoss. There is not the land available within that district for sunmor ranges to bo owned. They havo their ranches down there, and they havo nado their livelihood out of this livestock business. -We havo the other class of non down thoro that hove nado their livelihood out of spiling hay to the so ncn. Now then, if you arc going to eliminate those non that have fostorcd the livestock industry through all tho depressing tines wo have gone through, give othor ncn a fair opportunity that has not accepted tho livestock industry in the past, tell hin to cone in and take the place of the nan who has fostered it, you are going to put this nan out of businoss, going to place this nan on a snail or lovcl. I think you have done something dangorous. I think those natters should be left up to tho advisory boards, that the advisory boards should settle this question as to who tho r we arc going to decide "in or near tho district". (Applause). I don't want to be a party that is going to help to injure the livostock business. ,, MR. JENSEN OF ARIZONA: I havo got a cold, but I will talk as loud as I , ,*' can. MR. CARPENTER: Kind of uso your hands, that will help. (Laughter) . MR. JENSEN: Southern Utah cattlemen, end also sheepmen, havo went to work and used tho Arizona Strip for year-round grazing. Southern Utah has used the Arizona Strip for grazing for 50 years, and they havo acquired, together with tho Arizona citizens, logal rights thoro and havo used it for the year-round grazing, and there are a few shocp herders that have done the very sario tiling. As I understand it, thoro arc herds of sheep that have been in the habit of drifting down there. They have gone in there over and above those citizens that used it together with thoso citizens that havo g no in and developed it. Thcro is one moro thing, in that Arizona Strip, I don't think there is one dollars worth of property that is going to be applied upon any other grazing district, and I say that that one district, that the comncnsurability within that district should bo tho commons urability that is "Class A. MR." CARPENTER: Gentlemen, at this tine I wish to nako a request — only about a third of thoso registration cards wore turned in. Will those of you that have your cards start passing them along until they come down to the gentlemen in front, and thoy will hand then to Mr. Ryan, who will put then on the desk. It is now a quarter to four* Wo havo talked sono on one of tho six questions. Wo havo four questions that 'wo have net touched. Vfc are desirous of torninating this noeting in tine for another meeting to consider .applica- tions under Sections 14 and 15 of the Taylor Act. For that reason I on going to ask you, with your consont, to propose this procedure that wo leave this second topic horo, and with tho consent of the makers of tho notion that wo not put it to a vote this afternoon, that all those natters should be slept on and discussed in caucus, that when you havo discussed it in your more informal groups, you State groups, this evening, and when they return here tomorrow morning wo will take up the question again after we hear the report by States, and then tho question will be debated at sono length again, and when the voto cones on this floor the accredited delegates ' only will voto on tha" question bocauso they represent tho, 34 districts. Thcro is no getting around the fact that you are slowly and surely putting tho nomadic men cut of business. Thoro is no use dodging that question.. All wo arc debating is, how fast you want to do it and what rules you want to do uso to do it. With your consent wo will co to the next topic, and this matter will bo referred to the States to be conferrod on in their rooms this evening and discussed tomorrow morning after you havo had a night's sloop on it, or as much of the night as remains after your Stato caucus. * A-36 ». JONES OF OREGON: I vendor if wo ecu!, have , copy of the ncasuro no, before the houso in caucus? rary liconscs. m. mm of y.toming: it has boon ,y -J^^Jg^iSf thoBiU MR. «>. Mr. Noblett raises tto J^^K&^S ^ January 1, 1934, should not bo .onsxdorod v Tho J . - ot ^ ^ should not bo considered until June 1, 19.5&. in.x -- t is no restriction on date of acquisition. MR. FEES OF MONTANA: Doesn't that also state "unless it has boon used in connection with the livestock industry" ? MR. CARPENTER: No. The law nokes no distinction as to whether the property has or has not been usod. Ml. ALTERS OF DOMING: You spook t^ir^ri/lst^lloe.'Vew'will district licenses wore extended by order up until ..pril 1st, this affect us in that district? MR. CARPENTER: It will only affect the action that you ^o^fter tho^ ». f BB OF ARIZONA: I have no brief for J^^^T^ a darn thine about sheep. I don t ^llC'c sufficiently fron the t-di^efthef/^^e ^^^^0^ a darn thin, that they don't pay for. got toccthor. I believe they can, MR. HEATON OF ARIZONA: In %^<*£%g ^^^^oT^* th-t ell tho livestock had boon taken oil Uic ranLc ,^ - i Certain percent? Suppose a person had ~™«^^t't^^^S off? his livestock four or five nonths a year, Louie ho i^vc MR. CARPENTER: Seasonal use does net ^^-^nter Season. EfSo a ^r-fw^^o^errand the sense wo are usin, it hero would not apply in your State. MR. HEATON: Practically all ef the people 'in our district are Utah people. They r.iicht donand seasonal grazing. KR. CARPENTER: You arc in tho Strip? V A-37 MR. HEATON: Yes. Thoy night v/ant to mako the cattlo go off if tncy v/ont off. use MR- CARPENTER: I got y°ur point. I take back what I said about seasonal y, . Thcro suro is seasonal uso on the Strip. Any further ronarks? MR. VilNDER. OF 1U IEX: It soons to no the advisory boards — in sone districts thoy night havo to cut by lumbers ; in other districts thcy night have to rcduco the crazing period. I don't think you could rake a hard and fast rule to govern all districts. MR. HEATON OF ARIZONA: Thrco-fcurths of the advisory board ncribors in Arizona are Utah non. Now if thcy are united, thcy can say for all of the cattle to leave the Strip in the stumor tine if tho sheep lcavo. MR. CARPENTER: At this tine wo will not go any further into tho case of Utah vs. Arizona. Wo arc going to stick to those topics. If no further discussion, I will road tho fourth topic and nako a statonont about it. The fourth topic is stated on page 3: "Should temporary allocations of rango bo incorporated in all 1936 licenses"? Now, gcntlcncn, v/o havo nado sufficient range examination to begin within the next thirty days in sone allocations of ranges in ten districts of the thirty-four. We bolievc, with due diligence; that by the first of October of this year we can nake range allocations in every district in the United States if thcy are desired. A rango oxanination consists of an estimate of the carrying capacity of tho rango in which wo expect to get advice cf tho longest residents and nost care- ful users of tho rango and nako that cstimato based en the moisture. The only other natter in tho rango examination necessary to havo is a correct statement of the connensurato properties. Vfo spent all last year listing then up with what we thought thoy ought to be. Wo have now checked a large number of those in one district in oach Stato, and we can finish, -re believe, checking this yoar and bo ready to make a range allotment on different principles in difforont districts if you aro ready to havo it done. The range allotment, I nay add, vail bo incorporated in your liconso in this way. Mr. A is granted a license to run '100 head of cattle. The rango allotment in his district consists of a sinple cattle and shcop lino. If that is all tho rango allotment' nado in that district, he will be restricted to the uso of the cattle side of tho line and denied tho right for any wilful trespass over on the other side of tho lino. The sheep vail bo licensed on tho shoep side of the line. If the allotnent has boon nade by comnunity or joint uso, then a certain nunber of users will bo given a certain tenporary allotment that will bo incorporated right on tho face of his liconsc. General rules of the rango, promulgated by the Secretary, mice it a trespass cad a violation, subjoct to criminal prosecution and a ()500 fine, to go beyond the torns of your license. It will not bo nocossary to make a special rule of the range to cover the allotnent. You can have a tenporary allotnent of range nade ani incorporated in tho districts. .If that is done naybes/.-.c of this "\;hat c.r~ V/o get- "tin." for '-5ur.::oney" will be. answered. If yeu v/ant moro for your money, 'net just a nero license — we had all we could Co just to list you up this last year — and know whore you aro going or wanted to go, and wo dodged the manner of range allotnent by using tho words "customary uso", which in tho case of nany oporators included a use fron Honduras to Alaska, Y/o rocognizo that v/o can't enforco that kind of uso; with a certainty you can if it is definitely decidod. Tako, for instanco, tho Mojavc District in California No. 1. V»"o drew a cattle and shoep line. I asked one of the users how. that worked. Ho said it was a wonderful lino and nobody paid any attention to it. That brings up tho natter that thcro is no use putting anything into these licenses. It is not going to be enforced. 1 V A-3I You gontlonon rocognizo that the Fodorai Government swings a littlo slower and you do not got action as quickly as you would by going to a Justice of the Pcaco. You also notico when it gets into action it gets a grip like a bulldog and hangs on a littlo bit longer. \7o aro now going through a process of rcforring the violations of license rules in the districts to the Division of Investigations, Dopartmonfc of the Interior, and they aro now preparing a large number of roports. In ono case they have recommended a prosecution, and I hopo before this mooting is over that I will bo able to announce the first criminal prosocution for violation of the rules of the Taylor Act. Do not got the idoa into your head that was raised by Mr. Stone in our Department , that we are just playing around and debating about soncthing. V.'o aro going into soncthing which is the enactment of so much law which Congress delegated to tho Socrotary of the Interior, and ho is willing to follow your rccommondations in tho matt or. So those temporary allotments, although they will be good only for tho length of your 1936 licenses, will givo tho Department a dofinite somothing to control, which will really give you some protection. One man said to mo, "How can you toll mo to move out of this area without tolling mo I con go to some other area"? Idon't know how to answer that, I don't know how to get this range into any kind of fair regulation if wo can't mako some allot- ments. I an very much against trying to go too far in this matter. I bolicvo that in many districts drawing a cattle and shoop line is as far as they will want to go in 1936. In How Mexico I am informed that 35 to 90% of tho licensees have already agreed among themselves on individual allotments. Where our studies are complotc enough, wo expect to begin the first of March in the matter of making at loast a temporary allotmont, and as soon as that has been tried, out this year to get down to tho matter of term permits. If wo aro going to got down to tho matter of term permits and allotments of range, which is tho realization of live stock-men, you, must begin moving in that direction. You will ncvor got thoro if you don't start to go towards it. Wo believe in a cautious method of approach. Thoso who know nothing about your businoss would just as soon say, "Take tho Taylor Act and take her just as she is right now," because they do not realize what would bo done to it. All of this liconso business we are in you can't find the word "license" in tho Act. It is all under Soction 2, giving tho Secretary of tho Interior, in his wisdom, and I believe he showed great wisdom when ho named the tapering off poriod from the existing situation, to do what tho Taylor Act provides in Section 3. Ho didn't know how long that poriod should bo. It may bo only a year in New Moxico. It may bo sovcral years in other placos. There aro diffcront practices and different facts to substantiate. If you want range allotmont s mado, our range examinations can bo complete enough to mako a temporary allotment and take you ono step forward towards a term permit and a pemanont allotment of range that is pormanont within tho poriod of your term permit. MR. BALLARD OF OREGON: Your statement of tho allotment of lands goes far to satisfy us. It also goes far to satisfy us in rogard to the feed proposition. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Ballard states that tho statement of range allotments is satisfactory to his district and also is a satisfactory answer to the food question. MR. LEE OF NEU MEXICO : As to the position in Now Moxico on allotments, wo of New Mexico ondorso tho allotment plan definitely, permanently, and forever. MR. MILLER OF MONTANA: I believe this question should bo left with the States. It goes along with tho finance question which the States are to take up at 7:30, and I believe tho mattor should bo loft to' tho States the sano as tho finance question. A-39 MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Miller, thorc is no question boforc the houso. Those will be taken up in your State oaucus whore you will only cot your Stato -point of view, but before you go into your State caucus wo would like to hear fron the various States so that you nay understand the problon of all the States concerned. SENATOR CAUDLAND OF UTAH: I think the nest constructive novo you havo made so far is one loolcinc toward immediate allotment of range. The sooner wo nakc those allotments, tho sooner you arc coins to- begin .consorving the range. In our State we nigrato across to winter range in tho fall and in the spring. Vfo don't know whore wo aro going, vrc don't know how long we can stay. Whenever you nako an allotnont and mice it pomancnt you have stabilized the sheep industry. You havo saved tho sheep industry. The sooner you nakc the allot- ments permanent, the better it will be MR. MURDOCK OF UTAH; Mr. Caudland said the sooner you nako the allotments the sooner you will stabilize the sheep industry, I would like to add, Mr. Carpontor, that tho sooner you nako the allotments, tho soonor you will stabilizo tho cattle industry too. " ,MR. YiEBB OF ARIZONA: May I be permitted to raise one or two points? I want "to say, Mr. Carpenter, that vrc in Arizona aro for innediatc operation of the Taylor Bill in tho issuance of permits and the full operation of the measure, but if you don't make good, God help you. (Laughter) . MR. CARPENTER: That sounds kind of like a throat to nc. (Laughter). Any other States wish to express themselves? MR. JORGENSON OF UTAH: Pertaining to this question of allotments, I see that we have segregated in four classes a suggested basis for range allotment: First, classes of livestock; second, season of use; third, community or joint use; and fourth, individual use. That is the basis upon vhich wo are expected to discuss this measure. The first question appeals to no as meaning, are you able now to dote mine as betweon sheep and cattle what particular range they aro entitled to. I on of the opinion that' you arc not quite ready to determine that in tho beginning. Keep in mind I said in the beginning- I favor allotments, but I don't think we are ready to determine that question today. A thorough study of y, tho rango has not yet boon made. You are not able to say just which range should bo exclusive cattlo rango and which should be sheep rango. As to season of use, I take it the Bill itself infers, tho Act passed by Congress, that the present intent of the measure was that wo should make proper use of the land in question, not only tho public land but tho ranch lands that are to be used in connection with the public lands. Let me call your attontion to the fact that here today you passed a resolu- tion to the effect that you aro going to consider second in order thoso with comensurato property for pernit right regardless of whether they got prior use or not. If thoy have got ranch lands suitable for livestock purposes, although they have never owned livestock in the past, they ore to be considered for a permit. If Class A applicants arc taken care of — they may have all this land leased — I take it to moan that practically all tho lands of Utah arc lands that aro properly in line to bo considered in securing an application on tho public domain to graze livestock, 1 think that I can -ay without fear of contradiction that 90% of th* privately- owned lands in Utah could bo considered as properly in lino for an application to graze livestock upon the public domain. If we can grant that as a fact, then you. have a big problem to take into consideration. Most of tho ranchers have been compelled to feed their livestock upon their own premises within their own corrals, but under tho Tuylvr Grazing Act as vrc aro proceeding, apparently he is in lino to expect a pernit upon the public domain. So I am questioning tho advisability of being ready o allotment permanent permits at the present tine. . A-40 Now you have the question also as to seasonal use. ;.s I said a moment ago, in ny estimation ono»of the prime purposes of the measure was proper land use. In ny nine!, proper land use also ncans proper seasonal use. Just what season of the year should it bo granted? Shall it bo granted in the spring or during the summer or winter? Has sufficient study been made at this tine to deter: lino in all cases what is the proper uso to be nade of certain areas? Until it hr.s , 1 thin): you are not roady to start out making allotments. Then I note by tho program here we cone to connunity or joint use. I an inclined to think, if we are going to make allotments, in the beginning it better be community or joint uso. On most of these public domain areas we find that we have to depend to a groat extent on moisture. It is mostly dosert area I am inclined to believe. It night bo advisable in tho beginning to make joint allotments, or community allotnonts. I think it would. Pertaining to individual use, I have an idea it should be quite a Ion.-; tine before we cone to that* Yet personally I believo I would, be satisfied if I had an individual allotment. I an very doubtful that the advisory boards in tho- ttifferont districts have nade sufficient study to tell then where to go, yet they nay be classed as Class A grazing entitled to go to the district, entitled to receive a permit for the district, but no one is able to tell them whore to go because of insufficient study of the problem and not being taken into con- sideration to the extent that it should be taken into consideration, as to just the number of livestock it is expected to graze in any given area and how long. Our Department of the Government is charged with the duty of bringing back into proper oondition these public domain areas. I think a good part of our livestock-men will concede that a lot of these areas have been overdone. V.rc have killed out a lot of valuable forage that previously grew on it. I take it that the biggest part of you will grant that this Department of Government is charged with the restoration of those barren areas. I an very doubtful as -co whether sufficient study has been made of the area. If you have sufficient information in this connection, I want to say go ahead and nake your allotments, but I would advise that they be community or group allotments in the beginning, deperi -.ing on what information you have before you in making those allotments. Mil. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I want to nake a little explanation, l.e are talking about tenporary allotments of range. In regard to our studies in this matter, in some districts wo have a very good type cover for commons urate property studies. 1-"e are not trying to make a complete finding that will a hundred per cent perfect „ !7e are trying to bring the benefits of the Taylor Act to the people who are entitled to it, I don't want to fool you members of the advisory boards.' If this conference decided that temporary allotments of some kind should be incorporated in any or all of the licenses' issued during the year 1936, you have cut out a big job for yourselves. It is indeed an arduous Job. It is not going to be easy, MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: V.nen we started out, we followed the customary way of grazing and use of the range. That is the thing that tho Taylor Bill is trying to get away from. Vie elected boards of sheep and cattlemen who know the country. Our board is ready to make these allotments. I think the Department is ready to accept the recommendations of these advisory boards who have made a study of it, have been raised in tho business, and know how the allotments should be made at this time. I think we should favor allotments for 193G. I think we are back of this Taylor Bill one hundred per cent. I.Il'J. GARDNER OF UTAH: As to range divisions, Mr. Jorgenson has intimated it can't in a measure be done. It would bo foolish for the advisory boards to go back and tell the fellows from their districts wo are going to divide this range. On the other hand, if they come end. say we want a division of the range, both sheep and cattle, if the division is outlined we know that there are people who hc.ve more than enough commensurate property but they are vailing u-ider the license period to be lenient. They will protect the cattlemen and the cattlemen will protect the sheepmen. Ve are not forcing, it on them. They are presenting it to us and are anxious to have this division made. They are preparing for that, they are anxious for us to take a step as an advisory board'' to assort ourselves. They say, "Whatever you say we will stand behind you." , ./» ■-"'A wWn%[ A-41 Vfe aro behind the the Taylor Bill in all that it means. T.'e are ready to cooperate with those men. We don't have to go and tell then we are goin/:; to make a division of the range. They aro making their own divisions. They , elect their committees and assemble, three sheepmen and three cattlemen, and they will respect those lines until such time as the grass can be studied., MR. MURDOCK:OF UTAH: I have not heard much from ITo. 3, but I can say this, if these gentlemen that. are on the advisory board in No. 3 are not able at the present tine to go and set this ground off and allot, at least in community allotments, they will never live long enough. I know men born and raised on the desert in No. 3. I know that these men know whore they want to go, and they know that transient herds have drove the common and little grazier out of business. They lenow that. Vie have got men 65 years of ago on the board. They know what has become of southern and western Beaver County and western Millard County. They know that interstate herds has drove those people to poverty. There is no question about it. I have lived in Beaver County the bigger part of ny life, "'(hen, I first went in there you could see herds of cattle on the domain. , Today we, have got a poverty stricken county from- one end to the other. Why? Simply because they were driven out with big travelling herds. I think we are ready for the question. KRi LUBKEN OP CALIFORNIA: I believe that that should be left up to the various distriots of the States for the simple reason that I believe the Mojavc District can arrange their whole set-up between the sheepmen and cattlemen. We have practically got that settled right now and did it last springe V.re had an agreement between ourselves that different sections were allotted to different individuals. I don't mean that each individual had a certain section, but possibly three or four would be permitted in one/ section of the range. It is true we overlapped, but I believe -the only way to get at this is to leave it up to the districts themselves in each State. That is the only way you can get to it. - - (Applause).. I am sure we have got our Mojavc District practically settled, and the only ones that will discord with us are those that don't own a foot of land. Y.re can start from thes.upper end of the district and go clean to the other end, and the sar.e east and west, and I believe we are all ready to make our various allot- ments, although I admit that there might be three or four permittees in each allotment, I am in favor of the various districts talcing it up in themselves. MR. YvHINITERY OF COLORADO: Speaking for District 3, I believe we are just as ready now as we will ever be to take up the question of giving term permits — those term permits for Class A should be for 10-year periods — and also to make thc^e allotments. The big end of the allotments in District A, in my opinion, will be community allotments, as the Chairman pretty well knows that section. He knows that we have to use it colloctively. The division of the range as between the two classes of the industry, the cattle and sheep, is practically already made and agreed to. We have on our board, if you please Mr. Carpenter, and you know that too, men who have had years of experience in operation in our district, men who know the different sections, in which they live, like a book. They have ridden over it for years. I believe our board can conolude this work by November 1st of this year in the permit and allotment section. We also can give temporary area permits to the other class that aro entitled to that. Mil. LUBKEN OF C/LIFOR'IA: I want to move that we put this matter up to the sections of each State and let them make the decision. MR. CARPENTER: We did not expect to vote on them. It is just a topic I wanted to run over. You can" consider it further in your caucus this evening. ^ Mr. n.:hinnery touched on a matter. Before this meeting is turned over to the Sections 14 and 15 meeting in 15 minutes, I want to jump sub-section 5 on pa^e ,,» 3, temporarily, and go doi/n to Section 6 and I will read it to you. A-42 "If the issuance of temporary tern permits is to be on the basis of dependent property without consideration of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable?" I can't let this assembly go into the State meeting without calling attention to the fact 'chat there ig nothing mentioned in the Taylor Act about prior use that I know of, that when term permits are issued under Section 3 of tho Act they will go for the dependent commensurate property, land and water, and all that we are doing is finding out how many steps we want to take to get up to that point. That must be correctly understood. This matter of a range allotment is' one step in that direction. This. matter of a classification of dependent properties is another step in that direction. The subject, just before this classifying commensurate properties, which I am going into right away, is another step in that direction. If you take all the steps a little at a time, when you come to the transitional period to go into term permits, there wiTJ. be no great big jump for anybody. Wo one realizes better than you do how fast the people are getting their places ready to go into the division of the range. We should tell' thorn whero to buy their properties, and we should tell them what properties are going to carry - these. rights, and then in another year you will give them a chance to get right and get it. I realize if you delayed this thing fifty years there would still be people who would not be ready. I have got a neighbor who is never ready to put in hay until after it rains. There is; plenty of that goes on. But this great body of men aro not going to wait until everybody is ready because the great majority want the benefits as soon as they can get them without any injustice to too many of us. So I want you in your State caucus — although Mr, "l/hinnery is the only man who mentioned term permits — I want you to consider that, when we are working toward term permits, we want to get people now in the business, and there are plenty of them to use all the range. If they can do that in two years, they have effected a wonderful adjustment to a wonderful statute. It is that press for time that we are working for, to give time to the existing industry to adjust to a law which cut counter to a use of the range which existed for fifty years. '» I am not going to ppen question 6 up to discussion, but you can see what there is leaded into that section. I want now to go back to Section 5, and in the next few minutes left to us, take up some of the matters contained in there. Section 5 on page 3. "Should commensurate property be divided into classes and definitely defined?" Nov/ why should we do that? To give the board something to put their fingers on. The boards have had to wallow those applications around in their mouth and did not know which way to go. Wouldn't 'you like to have something more definite? It is very well to say, "Don't classify/, don't define, don't be definite." That is the way to dodge, but the fair way is always the hardest, and we might just as well face these questions and get all we can in two days, to get all we can and definite rules to these boards because they are going to work this coming year as they never did before. If we can come out of the year 1956 with' anywhere near as fair a division of tho range as they did the division of the licenses, they have done a marvelous job. That is my excuse for asking your consideration of the division of commensurate properties. Please glance at your papers and notice that I have suggested that in different districts certain properties should be marked as essential. A man who has not at least one of them could never get in with the second class of commensurate properties. It would look as though some cultivated feed would be an essential commensurate property. There are some districts whero yoar- countl* water is just as essential as feed. lIn Arizona and New Mexico year-round water is just as essential as feed. Water means as much to them as feed means to us. That- is the second class of essential property. The third class is a new development suggested by the Taylor Act, end I wish to say that one of the highest officials in the Forest Sorvice, a man who has almost unlimited wisdom on ranges and 35 years experience, said if he could go back over .his life and do something he had left undone, he would make protected pasture commensurate property, because when iL&ittnki • i A-43 that is done you are putting a premium on a man who saves his feed and protects his range. If you care to make protected pasture an essential commensurate , property, you put a premium on it and you get men protecting their pasture and building back their range, and you are coming back to the time when the western livestock industry is prosperous instead of "hang on by the teeth industry". I also suggested special facilities for the protection of the livestock. I am not sure whether they should be essential. _ Possibly they should come down in the other class. Vftien a man has qualified in the district with either protected pasture, permanent water, or cultivated feed, if he has' cdme in with one of them, then he can add out his set-up with pasture lands with 4 purchased fees and with temporary water. I v/ant to know, and I hope you will consider in your State meetings tonight: Is it advisable at this tjjae to sub-divide commensurate proporties? Man after man has come to me and said, "iThy don't you tell me exactly what it is I can buy and where to buy it?' You won't tell me. There is one fellow gets the range because he has a haystack." We have done everything to take Varo of these people. We have had a year to think about it. If you want to classify this thing, it is going to bo necessary to get in stop and go along. Look those over — they are only suggestions — and whon you come back tomorrow we are going to call for a report from each State and v/e are going to ask the opinion of the States on the division of dependent properties by miles. We are going to ask for the division of commensurate properties^ ... We are going to ask their stand on allotments of range. Then v/e are going to ask them as to the matters of fees. Those four great topics will have to be covered tomorrow morning. I j * After tho State reports are received, after genoral debate is over,, then we are going to vote — if there rs" a call for division, and these accredited delegates will vote and they will vote per man right straight through, and the vote will be recordod. The morning session will be devoted to that. Tomorrow afternoon we will go to the two last topics, vhich are organization and improvement. Wo are asking a number of the district advisors on the matter of improvement. .No talk over five minutes. \.e will take up the matter of further organization, we will take up the matter of improvement, ojid there will be selected speakers, and v/e will try and finish our afternoon session. At this time I will ask all cf those who have not; passed their cards in,tpvdo so I am going to ask if Mr. Jewett of the Biological Survey is here, if he will please meet with the Oregon committee, wherever their headquarters may be, as they have a game refuge problem to take up with him. c Now I am going to ask where the State committees want to caucus. (At this point announcements were made by the chairmen of each, State committee as to place and time of caucus). , (The meeting adjourned at 4:30 P. I«I. , to resume the following morning.)- ■■■■j i ii ±*jti». ■ - " I ., . I!1 ' ir— —— in ■ i i i i i B-l DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION Salt Lako City, Utah January 13 and 14, 1936 SECOND DAY L y» ■ Morning Session (Meeting called to order by Director F. R. Carpenter, at 9:20 A.M. , , Jen uary 14, 1935, in the Lafayette Ballroom, Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah.) i MR. CARPENTER: It is twenty minutes beyond the time that was stated on the program to open, but on account of our delay in opening yesterday, there, has been some confusion. I realize that many of you were up late last night and this may be a fairly early hour. This conference if successful, is going to be repeated. It is going to be successful if we get something out of it that moves us along a little on the road. If it just leaves us,- when we leave, where we came in, it is not going to be successful. We have had this meeting open to rather freo debate. All comers/have been invited to express themselves. The advisors have had the benefit of very many and divergent points of view. We caucused last night by states, and I thought it would be fair to have in full before all the - delegates the resolutions of the ten states. For that reason, I will begin alphabetically and call on the state chairmen to give the resolutions of their states. When we are thru we will take up a discussion of the matter, I am going to ask each state chairman to get up on the platform end use the "mike".' (Short recess while the microphono is being connected.) Gentlemen, I notice the "mike" is working, and I am going to ask the speak- ers to como up in back of the "mike" in order that you can all hear them. Before calling for the report of the state chairmen, I will ask Mr. Territt to come for- ward. Mr. Territt is the man who has been selected as the new Assistant Director of Grazing. s. o MR. JULIAN TERRITT; Thank you, Mi*. Carpenter, Mr. Secretary, friends, and members of tho livestock fraternity: I am very happy to stand here this morning in this position. Any pleasure that I ir.ay feel by reason of that fact does not render me insensible to the' responsibilities which I am assuming. In performing' my duties, it shall be my aim to be guided by the grazing law and the purposes set forth in the grazing law, as outlined in the preamble of the Taylor Grazing Act< I have always been greatly interested in the administration of the public domain. When I was a child, my mother used to take me out to graze, and I have always been, over since, greatly interested in the preservation and protection of an adequate grass supply. I might say that, if it had not been for a slip on the part of an eminent United States senator, who is now gone, Mir. Byron Wilson of Wyoming and I might have been the fathers of a good share of the Taylor Grazing Act, In order to keep from placing Mir, Wilson in bad with his good friends from Wyoming, I hasten to say that I refer to that part of the Taylor Grazing Act which has to do with sale of isolated tracts and leasing. I am remindod of the story of the man from Johnstown. You all have heard 'of the Johnstown flood in Pennsylvania. One of the men drowned in that flood, whpn he got up to Heaven, he was so impressed with tho vastnoss of the flood that', whenover he oould get an audience together, he would climb up on one of 'the golden lamp-posts and begin to tell them about the flood. One day, he had a big crowd around him and proceeded to tell them about the Johnstown flood, when an old man with whiskers almost to the floor came up. and looked at him and said, "Get down from there and let me get up there." This man from Johnstown said, 1fWho arc you?" The old man said, "I'm Noah." I 9 ; I tl. — : MMuM % .... B-2 (Laughter. ) I don't want you to feel that I have the attitude of the roan from Johnstown, neithor that I feel that I am a Noah, but, by strict attention to work, study, and with your assistance, I hope to be able to accomplish something for the com- mon good, circumscribed only by the limits of tho law, fairness to the citizen- ship of tho country at large, and that utmost loyalty which common deeoncy de- mands that I rendor to the Secretary and my chief, Mr. Carpenter, I shall always lend a sympathetic ear to the problems of tho stockman. I can say this because I was born and raised a stockman, and I think that the people in tho west have more interest in the administration of this Act than all the rest of tho country put together. I like to feel that there, is a certain faith which is kept by all true stockmen. If, when I am called upoa to give an accounting of my stewardship, I can truly say I have kept the faith, then and only then shall I feel that I have succeeded in some reasonable degree. (Applause. ) MR. CARPENTER: At "this time, we will call for the report of the state com- mittees, beginning with Arizona. I will ask tho chairman to stop up to tho plat- form, if he will, take his position back of the "mike" and deliver it there. MR. MATHIS FROM ARIZONA: I think, after my introduction to this audienoo by Mr, Carpenter yesterday, you will decide that I am not an orator. Ho introduced me as a "wild rider." MR. CARPENTER: . Well, ho swings a pretty easy rope, I'll say that for him. MR. MATHIS: I didn't have my wits about me quick enough'to say that' he is the only man I know that I have not competod with in this yet. I expected this to be conducted a little differently than the way we have started, so I have not prepared anything very formal here in tho way of introduc- ing resolutions. We have just gone down the list of questions and have made a notation opposite each one, and I am trusting to my memory to explain the atti- tude of the Board on each of these questions. We discussed some yesterday as to the meaning of "contiguous". We decided in our meeting that we would define con- tiguous in our 'district -- I would like to say, however, before I go on further, that all of tho delegates from the state Of Arizona met with us and participated in our deliberations, gave us their ideas, which were very fine and good, but the No. 1 distriot, which constitutes the Arizona Strip on this side of the River, is the only district that has so far been created in Arizona, so in our votes we only represent the Strip. ' i • The question, "Should cuts within a class be made on the numbers of live- stock Or by restriction of the season of use"? We decided this question could only be handled right and proper by the Advisory Boards, and it should be elastic enough that wo could handle each individual case as tho conditions would call for. "Should temporary allocations bo incorporated in all 1936 licenses?" To this we ansv/erod yes. Wo expect thore will be some argument against this but we deoided this thing may as well be decided now. We may make some mistakes, may have to retrace, but the thing may as well be started. The Advisory Boards will change from time to time in personnel, and I think tho Boards that have studied this for the past year are about as well prepared now as they will be later on. "Should commensurate property be divided' into classes and definitely de- fined?" Definitely defined, this division being contingent upon the range manage- ment praoticb obtaining" in localities. This is also a study for tho advisory boards to recommend to the Department, I have seen times when I could not read my. own writing, and I didn't think I would have to do it so much today. "If the issuanco of preferential term permits under Section 3 of the Taylor is to be on tho basis of dopen dont commensurate property without considora- Act tion of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable?" We recommend that wo sy B-3 do not issuo thoso licenses and permits before 1937, giving us another year in .which to work this out, "The need of special rules for fair range practice, and tho enforcement of ' all rules and regulations." Wo favor special rules and regulations, and wo re- commend that they be enforced. These rules and recommendations should bb worked out by the advisory board. I will say for District 1 of Arizona; we have worked out some rulos and regulations, -., ' i "Should any fee be paid for temporary licenses?" We feel we want to pay for all we get. We want to help pay the expense- of getting this into working shape. We realize that, for a period, wo wonTt get much benefit out of this, but the ex- pense will have to be mot. We favor paying of licenses as sot out and recommended by tho Department, but we want to go on record as asking Congress to emend this law that wo will only be assessed for tho operating of this Taylor Bill in our district. We feel that wo are taxed now to all tho livestook industry can stand and, when this is set up, wo expect to be assessed only for the operating ex- penses, I MR. VICTOR CKRISTEKSEIT OF CALIFORNIA: Ladies and gentlemen: Our committee Worked quite late in the night to try to arrive at what was best for California. We did not agree unanimously on all of the things wo aro offering here today, for the reason that, in our two districts in California, there is as great a differ- ence in uses and customs as there is possibly in any state in the union. We have District 1 in California, where the use is on a desert set-up, a desert condition. Our District 2 in northeastern California, tho range use in most cases is attached to ranch property near or adjacent to public lands ■. So, though our recommendations were not always unanimous, we did attempt te make re- commendations for tho best interests of the people who represent both districts. First, as to the question of fcosj California representatives approve of a reasonable fee when the districts are ready for term permits. Tho Modoc-Lassen district. District No. 2 in California, still being in the process of determina- tion of rights, asked that there be no foes for that district for 1936. Distri^b No. 1 of California approvod a fee of one cent per month on sheep and five cents per month on catble, whenever term permits aro issued and protection furnished. Also, we wero unanimous in endeavoring to carry on an activity whereby tho Taylor Act could be amended so the charge for fees would be that which was neces- sary for the administration of the Taylor Act only and not have it as a tax- collecting agoncy. As to changing the order of preferential classes for licenses: California representatives approve the plan of order as outlined by the Department for 1936 and approved by the grazing assembly January 15, 1936. As to dividing depen- dent properties into two classes, as follows: (a) Those within or contiguous to a district. '. California representatives asked to leave the word contigu- ous out and include or replace by the word "near". (b) Other properties that have been or oan be used in connection with the publio lands of a district. No. 3, Should cuts be made on the numbers of livestock or by restriction, of the season of use? California recommended cut in time or season of use rather^ than cut in numbers. No. 4. Should temporary allocation of range be incorpo-* rated in all 1936 licenses? California recommended that allocation of range be made in as many licenses as possible to fairly allot ranges in 1936 by the Advi- sory Boards. No. 5. Should commensurate property be divided into classes and definitely defined? Yes, same should be done as definitely as possible and at as early a date as possible to do so correctly* No. 6 - If the issuance of prefer- ential tern permits under Sec. 3 of tho Taylor Act is to be on the basis of de- pendent commensurate property without consideration of prior uso, how soon is their issuance advisable? Term permits arc only advisable when tho propor in- formation has been obtained so term permits can bo justly given or approved. No. 7 - the need for special rulos for fair range practice, and tho enforcement of all rulos and regulations. California representatives sec tho nood of special rulos and regulations and ask for tho approval and enforcement of special rules t;o be suggested for 1936 use. ttt^jmaa^Jum/mi |ti|B *■£«- B -4 Even though we are on a license basis in 1936, we hope to have special regu- lations approved by Mr, Carpenter and the Secretary, and that they be in force in 1936. Our members of advisory boards in Calif ornia aro preparing to tako up all the problems that may be boforo us this March, possibly the latter part of Febru- ary, and. we hope to have special rules and regulations that will benefit our neighborhood. - _ 'I As to organization, ' corporations are recommended for district associations desiring same. That was quite a big question, and v/e did not go into it very deeply. It -is going to take a great deal of study, but we know, in our district in northern California, we arc very much in need cf some sort of corporation set- up in addition to our Division of Grazing and our advisory board work, for ;tho purpose of leasing Indian lands, school lands, and other stato lands which .are intermingled with the range areas, and which, in pact years, operators who are bothered by tramps on some part of these lands, much to the detriment of the peo- ple who should have the proper use of the range. We hope to have an agency that v/ill help us properly lease, distribute and charge for thoso lands, California approves the ECW work program attached to the Division of Grazing for the benefit of the livestock industry. Wo recommend the continuation and ex- tension of that service and promise our cooperation towards its success. At the present time, we have three ECW camps in our state , one in the south- ern part of the state and two in the northern part of the state, and it is re- markable how much benefit we are getting from these camps and the good work they are doing. The boys are all Eastern boys. If any of you geirc.lcmen ha^c the pos;- ■ sibility of getting an ECW camp in your neighborhood, you want to recommend it. For some reason, there seems to be a distinct change in the personnel of the CCC boys. A few years ago, wo had .one ECW camp come in which was not attached to the Division of Grazing, and there were quite a group of renegade boys Jn ib, which disturbed the little communities. But now the hoys we have in our commu- nity are just as fine boys as you could find anywhere — not only a credit to the CCC activities but also to the homes from which -chey came. "*" We have one further resolution: "The California delegation are in favor of tho Taylor Grazing Act as it has been explained to us by Diroctor Carpenter „ We will continue to support the Taylor Grazing Act as long as the democratic princi- ple of homo rule for each of the grazing districts is granted tho grazing district advisory boards by the Division of Grazing." (Applause.) MR. BRAY OF COLORADO* Mr, Pitchforth asked me to go to bat for him, which I was very happy to do. At the outset, wo want it distinctly understood that tho Colorado delegation desires to cooperate with the Department- of the Interior and the Division of Grazing in any matter of finance, and not only m the matter of finance but also in the administration of the district » Tho Colorado delegation met at the hotel last ovening at 7:30, Tho entire delegation was present, Tho first thing that came up was tho division of depend- ent property into two classes. You remember that came up on the floor yesterday and we had some discussion about it. It was moved, seconded and carriod that -che Colorado delegation oppose putting those permittees in Class B whose commensurate •property lios without a district. I night make just a small 'explanation of that stand. In Colorado, wo have, especially sheepmen, who have had their property there for as high as 25 and 30 years. It has always been their custom to trail into Utah to the desert to winter. Now, if thoso people are put in Class B, I would like to ask you what you are going to do with all those sheepmen. They are legitimate sheepmen; thoy are not tramps.' They havo commensurate property and lots of it. ; **Z7 MP ppppNP B-5 Questions Should cuts within a class be made on the numbers of livestock or by restriction of the season of use? ^mswer: Moved, seconded and carried. that the Colorado delegation go on record that cuts within a class bo loft with the local board. Everything that we could not decido to answer "yes" or "no", wo passed the buck to the local board. The local board needs some authority ' and, as I understand our delegation, wo aro in favor of giving them authority, ahd they are not going to dodge it. \ -m No. 4. Should temporary allocations of range bo incorporated in all 1936 licenses? Moved, seconded and -carried that Colorado delegation favor the advisory boards to make the necessary allocations and that they. recommend temporary allo- cations until such time as term permits can be issued. No. 5* Should commensurate property be divided into classes and definitely defined? The Colorado delegation recommend that property be divided into classes and definitely defined, but that Item D, namely: "Special facilities for protec- tion of livestock", be plaoed under Item C in the following paragraph. No, 6. If the issuance of preferential term permits under Section 3 of the Taylor Act is to bo on the basis of dependent commensurate property without con- sideration of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable? The Colorado del- egation favors the issuance of preferential term permits en a basis of commonsur- ability, dependability, and priority, as at present, and that it be left under the control of tho local board. You see, we keep throwing it off onto the local board. Question: Should any fee be paid for temporary license? I am just going to read the answer, and then the remarks I make afterward will be entirely on my own. "The Colorado delegation is in favor of paying not to exceed ten cents per head per month for cattle and two cents per head per month for sheep, providing' that term permits be issued if and when fees are paid." . In this connection, I might say that the Colorado delegation probably wore not unanimous on that, but the feeling among tho Colorado stockmen is this, that if you will leave the adminis- tration of tho Taylor Act in tho wost among the Colorado stockmen, and the Utah stockmen, and the other western states, we are willing to assume the full re- sponsibility of paying the entire cost of administration* (Applause.) MR. WORTH LEE OF IDAHO: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary, ladies and gentlemen: I might say that these recommendations were the recommendations from all of the users of the public domain from the state of Idaho that were here present at Salt Lake and they were made with the understanding that they would be in no way pre- judicial to any latitude which might be given to the local boards of each dis- trict. Yvro realized that all the latitude possible, and all the consideration possible, that the Taylor Bill would allow, should be given and considered, from the recommendations of the local board, as it studied the qualifications and the classification of each permittee on each application for a permit. I might say that we worked long and diligently, and discussed this in every manner possible, and we could have spent a longor time on each one of them, but these are the re- commendations that we finally arrived at, as far as we were able to get down tho line; Grazing fees: Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that no fees be required to be paid under the Taylor Grazing Act until the stockmen are issued permanent per- mits. No, 2. Policies: Resolved and recommended by the stockmen of Idaho that, where a man be determined as a Class A applicant under subdivision A of Section 1 of Policies that such right be recognized in contiguous or adjacont districts, it having boon specifically understood that district boundaries and state lines would not jeopardize tho customary use of the range. ' »-LUAJ!_U . B-6 No, 3 in regard to "Cuts", Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that if any cuts are to bo made that they be made by animal days instead of any cut incum- bers. If a man had an economical unit, where he could run a certain number of sheep, and docidod that his ranch was too small, that, in place of cutting his number for that year, that he be notified that ho could buy a little pasture or something, and still reserve the right to keep his full quota, an economical unit, u« - , ■ i No. 5. Divide commensurate property into classes. Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that no action be taken on the division of commensurate property into classes at this time. Now, I will say that wo talked this over at length, and finally recommended to the s too lemon that no action be taken on the division of commensurate property into classes at this time. I will say that District 1 had already set up rules that they had recommended to the Secretary of the Interior that wero just about as noar fair as we could decide on for the district in Idaho that had been set up. Of course, wo have users in the other two districts, in contemplation that had as much to say about this as the district thai}/ was set up. No, 7. Need 'Of special rules. Resolved that the question of need of special rules £or fair range practice, and the enforcement of all rules and regulations be unanimously passed at this time without action. We did not have much of a set-up in Idaho and wo did not really know just what kind of rules we wanted. It was getting latffv at that time and tho boys were getting ready to seek a little re- freshment at that time, or rest themselves, just whatever you want to *al 1 it, and .we passed it up, Organization. Resolved by tho stookmon of Idaho that we are not well enough posted at this timo to make any resolutions on organisation at this time. Improvements. Resolved by tho stockmen of Idaho that we are not well enough posted at this time to make any resolutions on improvements at this time* But we did, as will be shown later, we appreciated tho CCC camps and re- alised the wondorful assistance they could be in improvement of the range and, if wo had a term period of years that we knew we could depend on them to make the projects and start them out on the work. That concluded all the questions that we had passed on and, under this new business, I will read the resolutions and explain it if it is not clear to you. VOICE* I think you neglected to state our position on No. 6 on Page o. ME, LEE: I beg your pardon. No, 6. .Issuance of term permits. I over- looked that and, by the way, it was one that carried a great deal of discussion and I am very glad you called my attention to that. We discussed this long and faithfully and, after wo finished, idiis was our conclusions Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that it is our judgment that permits should never be issued without consideration of prior use, Nov/, the point that we wore trying to get at, I gather from the discussion there, was this, that we felt that our personal property and our real estate already was standing about all the taxes that it could pay; in fact, in Idaho, it takes a pretty good business man to borrow enough money to pay his taxes, and we wanted it brought down to this fact, that any extra assessment or fees of any kind that could be assessed against the stockmen on the public domain, should bo only as much as it would actually Use for their part of tho administration or policing of the public domain. Now, you gentlemen from Idaho, if I have overlooked anything, call my atten- tion to it, I believe that is the extent of our resolutions. MR. CARPENTER: It is evident, from the attention and checking being made on this, that no one, not even the chairman, is going to skip anything, MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: I have boon reminded, since I took my se»at, tha-b I overlooked giving tho room my definition of "contiguous", MR. CARPENTER: I am glad your conscience worked. You can give it now. ' -----■.— -rr-—:. -- . B-7 MR. MATHIS: Distriot No. 1 of Arizona and District 4 of Utah, their inte- rests overlap so that wo had some considerable discussion as to defining I what "contiguous" might bo called in terms of distance. We decided that Iron, Kano, and Washington counties will be counted as contiguous to the district, or adjoin- ing counties to the district will be counted as contiguous to the district. MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Ifethis, That is tho first definition of "fringe" that I have ever heard attempted. We are going to have to define it some day; I guess 'we might as well start now. I am glad to see the Arizona Strip had the norvo to tackle it. MR. J. M. JONES OF OREGON: I am not going to attempt to give you my ideas or the ideas of a lot of tho representatives from Oregon, but I am just going to briefly road what we did. I think there are two words that most all of us like to hear in praotically ovory speech that is made before very many public I gather- ings, and that is: "In closing." So I will use this as "in closing." I have not got the questions, but you are all familiar with them now, so I will just road the answers to the questions. Oregon delegates to tho Taylor Act Grazing Conference, following the oponing session of the conference today, made the following recommondations, which will be presented to all delegates tomorrow: That a grazing fee for 1936 be fixed at 2 cents per month per head for cat- tle and horses and one fifth of that amount for sheep. That tho definition of the terms "contiguous" or "near" be left to tho Advi- sory Board in each individual oaso and sot-up. That, local Boards bo permitted to determine whether cuts of stook or time should be made in each individual permit. That the question of allotments should be left to the local boards, -with per- mission to decide "when the allotment should be. made and whether' they should be in- dividual or group*.. That cultivated feed, permanent water and protected pasture be considered as commensurate property, together with other pasture whon used in connection with a permanent setrup. '•■ That long-term permits bo issued as soon as possible. MR. TERRITT OF MONTANA: Wo, the representatives of the advisory boards of the grazing districts of Montana, attending the conference in Salt Lake, make tho following recommendation. I want to say here that these recommendations were unanimous in every case. There was no dissenting vote on any of the propositions. We, the representatives of Advisory Boards of the Grazing Districts of Mon- tana attending the conference in Salt Lake City make the following recommenda- tions, 1. Grazing Fees, (a) We recommend that a reasonable fee to cover adminis- trative costs should be paid for tho 1936 temporary license where range alloca- tions are made. (b) We feel that not to exceed one oent per head per month for sheep, fivo cents for cattle, and sove'n and one-half cents for horses is a reasonable fee to be assessed in proportion to tho percentage of public domain included in tho area. I might say tho Montana delegation take the position that they aro porfectly willing to pay their way. They don't want to pay more than tho cost of adminis- tration, because they feel that their taxes are already so high that no additional burden should bo imposed, • No. 2. Division of dependent properties into classes. We feel that this ia a question to be left to the discretion of the individual advisory boards. i , B-8 No. 3. Should outs vdthin a olass bo made on tho numbers of livestock or by restriction of tho season of use? We submit that this question is purely a local one and therefore it should bo left to the discretion of tho various Advisory Boards, No, 4. Should temporary allooations of. range be incorporated in all 1936 licenses? (a) Wo are in favor of^ temporary allocation, (b) We recommend that the basis of allocations bo loft to the discretion of the Advisory Boards*.. , I No, 5, Should commensurate property be divided into classes' and definitely defined? We consider this question is purely a local problem and therefore re- commend its solution be loft to the discretion of the various Advisory Boards. i ' No, 6. Issuanoo of preferential term permits. We recommend that no term permits be issued until such tino as tho carrying capacity of the dependent com- mensurate property bo determined and a forage survey of the public lands is made in carder to determine their carrying oapaoity, I want to add just this, that tho members of the ^advisory boards of Montana are willing to aocept all tho responsibility placed upon them, and they f pel that, tho only way to successfully administer the Taylor Grazing Act is to place ade- quate authority in the local advisory board. MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: I fear that you v/ill feel that New Mexico is making a very brief report on this questionnaire* New" Mexico has, from the begin- ning, endorsed the Taylor Grazing Act. New Mexico ha3, from the beginning en- dorsed the program devised by the Department pf tho Interior and brought to us by Mr. Carpenter. New Mexico has been in such full. accord with that program and with Mr, Carpenter's ideals and ideas of proper administration for the public domain that we feel it is unnecessary almost for us to statd our position on any of those questions, because they are already well known. • Further, I think one reason for our briefness is that we oxpeotod that, pos- sibly, we would just answer "yes" or "no" to the various questions in the program* But, to be a little more spooifia, I will take up just a few of tho different ,. questions and state our position. ( One of the first questions I come to on the program: Should any fee be paid ro'r temporary license. The answer to that is "yes" provided that temporary or permanent allotments of range are tied, to tho fee. As to the amount of the fee, the attitude, I think, of not only the delegation from New Mexico, but the atti- tude of all the users will be, I think, so far as the users of the public domain in New Mexico are concerned, that, as the Secretary of the Interior has been kind enough to suggest to us a fee that might be acceptable to the Department, that we feel we should meet him on that question. If I remember oorreotly, the fee suggested by Mr, Walters, Assistant Secre- tary, was one oent per head per month for sheep and five cents per head per month for cattle and horses. I think that fee is acceptable to New Mexico. It certainly is to the New Mexico delegation representing the different grazing dis- tricts that are here, and, in passing, I might say that it has been the exooption at any meeting that we have held in N©w Moxioo that there was any difference of opinion — any serious difference of opinion. In New Mexico, the livestock raisers •— you will pardon me for saying New Mexico, because I really mean the livestook raisers in New Mexico — both snoop- men and cattle men have always been unanimous, or approximately unanimous in their reoommondations on all of these different questions, and the recommenda- tions that I am offering you here today are unanimous as far as the Now Moxioo delegation is oonoerned* We have this question, which I believe has rathsr confused some of the other ' boards, whioh gives considerable concern, and that is this question: "If the is- suance of preferential term permits under Seotion 3 of the Taylor Act is to be on tho basis of dependent commensurate property without consideration of prior uso, how soon is their issuonoe advisable?" We felt that any answer we mado would bo tho wrong answer, beoause the question is predicated on something that we feel / B-9 is not equitable. I don't think you can got, an equitable adjustment of the use of, the public domain without you consider priorities. . (Applause, ) j 1 1 . We admit possibly that it is not written into the law, but I feel that the intent of the law carried that. Our delegation decided that we. would not attempt to make a re commendation at this time, that on that question we would pass. Further, it was the opinion and recommendation of our delegation that some means should'be provided by which an assessment could be legally made for dis- tricts in our state, that the revonuo so derived from that assessment should go into the local treasury of the respective districts to be disbursed by the local boards in their discretion for the necessary policing, improvement and care of the, grazing distriot, relieving the department of that amount of expense., In conclusion, I would like to say that the New Mexico delegation is in full accord with the efforts of 'Mr, Carpenter to bring about the proper use of the public domain, I think you, MR. WILLIAM WRIGHT OF NEVADA: I wish to preface -my remarks with a statement that I am not a member of any advisory board. The state o,.f Nevada is rather gen- erally represented at this conferonco by men who are on advisory boards, by men who are in areas hoping later to come into .districts, and by men who have pre- ferred to remain wild. I have been honored and privileged (to act as temporary chairman with the thought, I believe, that all oomers would be represented, , First, I would like to state that Nevada/endorses the stand which has been taken hero, relative to amend- ing the Act having fees not go beyond the cost of administration. Second, I should like to clarify Nevada1 s position relative to fees. The discussion here yesterday was very interesting, and it was evident to-, the Nevada delegation that many folt Nevada was trying to get something for ^ nothing, which- of oourse pours water on the wheel of the eastern conservationists who have always 'maintained the wostern stockmen were getting something Tor nothing, We in Nevada wish not to bo in the gratuity class. Vie never have been. We have always paid' for our range and we intend to keep on paying for it. But wo have, involved there, a very serious problem. • When you stop to oorisider that, of the entire area of the State of Nevada, only ten percent, or a little over, is privately owned land, fifty percent of the ten percent, one half of the ten percent, is owned by the railroads. This ten percent, owned by the railroads and private interests, shoulders the entire tax burden of the State of Nevada, Thru the indirect process of carrying -those taxes and the interest upon owning strategic land holdings to control the range, strategic water holes, wo have paid dearly to control our grass. ,_ This is brought out on the cost studies of grass per cow unit, and I defy anyone, oven those who maintain wo are getting something for nothing, to break down this position, and fees, therefore, for us, must be compensated for in a re- adjustment of the tax structure, which is now carrying the entire state, almost 80 percent of which is to come under federal regulation. In Nevada, we are not quite as quick in the head as we might bo, and we were given a rather heavy order to digest, analyze and crystallize thoughts to go on record concerning the various policies that have boon presented to us. We were unable to do it — perhaps wo will be classed as thoso in the drag of the herd — but, rather than take the risk of jeopardizing the welfare of our livostock in- dustry, the bdsio industry of our state, wo have preferred to proceed oautiously, and, in -one brief resolution, we have covered our stand: _ — . . .___ — _ 1 ■ ■■ / / k-ir We tho Nevada delegation, resolve that ihore should he no feo during the temporary license period, until such time as permits are issued and that all mat- tors brought up hore, such as tho changing of Classes. 1, 2 and 3 in Circular 2, should bo left to tho local boards, as well as tho determination of tho amount of foos. I wish in conclusion, to' state that tho Nevada stockmen are very glad to cooperate with tho Division of Grazing in an effort to work out this very far- ,. reaching problem. Our only concern is our vory existonoo, our. very life in the range business. Thank you, • , (Applause,) MR, J. L. NIELSEN OF UTAH: I brought my secretory along for several - reasons. This is the first time I ever stood beforo a microphone, and, in caso I might fall dead, ho could go on with the report. And another tldng, I brought nim along for is, after looking at tho chairman, you might get a wrong impression of tho Utah delegation, so I brought ono good-looking man along. Delegates of Utah met last night and invited all the graziers in tho state to meet with us. Wo askod thorn to discuss the various problems that wo wore given to disouss, and that lasted about two hours. Then wo asked them to withdraw, and the delegation voted on tho different propositions. Wo might state wo consider it a very big job for us to handle in such a short timo, and we thought that som* action should be taken. • While those decisions aro premature, perhaps, and not thoroly digested, they are the very best we could do- under tho conditions and timo given. I will ask my secretary to road tho problem and question, and then I will give the position of the board. MR. FRANCIS: Under Finances* A, Should any fee be paid for temporary li- censes? MR. NIELSON: Decision: Until such time as districts commence to operate on a permit basis, finances shall bo termed as assessments and rates prescribed by the District Advisory Boards, the entire amount to bo expondod by District Advi- sory Boards in preparing Districts for issuance of permanent permits. That means that, whore a permitteo is grazing in two districts, that those local assessments would bo prorated according to tho time he grazed there. MR. FRANCIS: Quostion: If any fee should bo paid, what amount should it bo? MR. NIELSON: Dooision: When and at such time as the districts oommonco to operate on a permit basis, finances shall be termed as fees, rates to be 1/2 cent per head per month for sheep, and goats, and 2^ conts per head per month for cat- tle and horses, pro-rat od as follows? 25°/ to tho Fodoral Government; 25% re- turned to district advisory boards for range development within distriots; 50% to >>e roturnod to Counties, Wo endorsed the action taken by the gonoral assembly on Monday January 13, approving the ohange in preferential classes for licenses, ©n thit subject, wo had our liveliest fight. I intended to say, in tho beginning, that theso deci- sions wore not unanimous in many casos, and, in this particular case, we had our big fight, being almost equally divided, but the majority ruled according to this decision. 1/31, FRANCIS: Question as to dividing dopendont proportios into two classes as follows: A. Those within or contiguous to a district. B. Other properties that have or oan be usod in connection with the public lands of a district. MR. NIEISON: We approve dividing of dependent properties into two classes with tho provision that tho District Advisory Boards be privileged to classiiy < and interpret Sub-divisions (a) and (b), according to tho conditions within their particular districts. . — . — _ , . '':"':'^'v ; i B-ll - MR. "FRANCIS: Should outs within a class be mode on the numbers of livestock or by restriction of the season of use? MR. NIELSON: Cur decisions are that this be left to the discretirn of the District Advisory Boards. MR. -FRANCIS « Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated j in all 1936 licenses? • p • / • •■ I - '•. j ; MR. NIELSON: We amend No. 4 under "Policies" as follows: That temporary allocations of range be incorporated as far as pos s ible in 1936 licenses, basis for allotment under Sub-divisions (a), (b), "Co) and (dT~to be determined by Dis- trict Advisory Boards. MR. FRANCIS: Should commensurate property be divided into classes and defi- nitely defined? MR. NIELSON: We approve division of' commensurate property into classes, de- finitely defined. Division and classification shall be determined by District Advisory Boards. MR. FRANCIS: If the issuance of preferential term permits under Section 3 of the Taylor Act is to be on the 'basis of dependent commensurate property with- out consideration of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable? MR. NIELSON: Term permits shall be issued as soon as possible and practical, MR. FRANCIS: The need of speoial rules for fair range practice, and the en- forcement of all rules and regulations. / MR, NIELSON: We charge the State Advisory Committee with the responsibility of going into this matter, and with the District Advisory Boards and a represent- ative of the Department of Interior, to v/ork;out a uniform and sound program of range rules and practioes. The names of members of the state advisory committee are J. B. White, Jas, L. Nielson, Leo Stott, Lyman Sevey,' Wilford Clark, Charles Redd, Stylian Staes, ,B. H. Stringham, in ,the Sheep Division; and Lawrence Johnson, Bert Buraston, Ed Murdock, Edw. T. Lamb, R. A. Meeks, L. L. Taylor, Jess Conover and H. E. See ley in the Cattle Division. We might say that we endorsed very heartily the work of the CCC camps. In my own particular district, where I graze, w© have a camp there, doing wonder- ful work. The Fountain Green Wool Growers that own large springs there and put in some troughs, those have been turned over to the Interior department and they have done a wonderful job in piping the water down to lower levels where we could get, at it and placing tanks and troughs. They have completed two of these cases, and we Tory heartily endorse the work of the CCC camps. MR. METZ OF WYOMING: Like the gentleman from Nevada, I haven't the honor • to be a member of an advisory beard. I have tho honor, however, to represent 'at this conference the Governor of Wyoming, who, I may say, is vitally interested in the outcome of your deliberations, as tho Chief Executive of one of the greatest stockraising states. I take tho liberty to oarry to the Secretary, to you, Mr. Carpenter, and to you, friends engaged in the stock business , tho greetings of the Governor of Wyoming, and I add, personally > that I suppose- it is assumed, in calling upon us last, that due deference is being paid to tho fact that Wyoming is conceded to raise the best cattle and sheep in the Union. MR. CARPENTER: You might start something with that. VOICE: First joke we've had. MR. METZ: Not having additional help to oarry the papers — (laughter) — my apologies to Utah. My report will cover tho following throe phases: First"; fees. Second, the questions presented by Mr. Carpenter in tho program under if, various heads. Third, some rather snaky -and -wo oily resolutions on our own, which j B-12 we bolicvo will bo of general intcrost to this conference. As to tho first, Wyoming recommends that no foos ho chargod until such time as permits arc issued. Socond, as to the various questions prosontcd by the Secretary and Mr. Car- penter under Section 2 of "Polioios": Subsection 2, on dividing dependent commen- surate properties. The Wyoming dologatos have dotorminod to refer this question to thorAdvisory Board of oach district, Sub-soction 3: "Should cuts within a class bo made"? Wyoming has deter- mined to refer this quostion to tho advisory board of each. district. Sub-section 4, as to temporary allocations of rango in tho 1936 licenses: It has boon determined that this matter should bo_ referred to the Advisory Board in each distriot. As to Soction 5 and tho various items presented in Soction 5, which have been more definitely covered by other speakers, so that I boliove you are famil- iar with them, it has boon determined by the Wyoming delegation that those ques- tions should all bo refcrrod to tho advisory board in' oach district, which brings mo to say that I am now glad I am not a member of tho Advisory Board. Soction 6, doaling with the question of tho issuanco of preferential term permits without prior uso: Tho Wyoming delegation most definitely rocommends that issuanco of term permits under tho Act shall be mado on the basis of de- pendent commensurate property with prior uso and not othorwiso. Sub-soction 7, as to tho nood of special rules for fair rango practice: No action was taken. -v Soction 3 on Organization. Items 1, 2 and 3. Wyoming has determined that •it does not favor organization under Items 1 and 2. Ho attempt would bo mado to . either suggost or doprivo others from suggesting regulations which might better relations with existing livestock associations. Section 4. 'Improvements. Items 1, 2, 3 and 4, including the items which are familiar to you, among thorn CCC camps. No action was taken except that tho work of tho CCC camps, it is concedod, would bo very definitely beneficial. Departing now from tho quostipns prosonted by the program, I go t* tho reso- lutions of general interest: First resolution: Wyoming dologates request that tho rulos and regulations heretofore proposed by tho Advisory Board of District No# 1, Wyoming, be approved at onco. ■ Second resolution: Tho "Vfy-oming delegation requests amendment to .tho Act, or other congressional aotion, pormitting any state, at its oleotion, as'exprosscd by its stato legislature, to tako ovor tho public domain within its borders for administration, loaso and sale. That resolution will, of course, bo of no par- ticular consequence to those statos which do (not doom such action advisable. Third. Bo it further rosolvcd that rules and regulations governing tho election of tho District Advisory Boards, bo/ writ ton into the Taylor Act. Bo it further rosolvod that the authority and powers of • tho local advisory boards bo written into the Taylor Aut. Be it further resolved that tho District Advisory Boards bo grantod authority, under tho Taylor Act, to fix commonsurability standards and to grant grazing permits. Fourth. Bo it furthor resolvod that we are ©pposod to any rostrictivc amendments to Sections 8, 14 or 15 of tho Taylor Act, I am furthor advised, sinco the passage of the forogoing rosolution, that tho powers -that -bo, our local brass hats from Wyoming on tho Advisory Board, mot in a" star chambor sossion aftor tho rest of us common pooplo had gono homo last night, and doterminod that, if tho passage of tho forogoing resolutions, provid- |gj|dfgiWj|af| B-13 ing the rules of District 1 are approved' and become really effective, and the range adequately preserved so that real value may be received, then that they were willing to pay any proper administration fee. In closing, I will say that I am glad you have all conceded that Wyoming raises the best cattle and sheep. (Applause, ) ME. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO* In making my report for New Mexico, I failed to cover one reported question. That is the question of commensur ability. It - was the opinion of our delegation that, for the state of New Mexico, highest consideration should be given, in the appraisement of commensur ability, to the ownership of permanent water, and that no permits should be granted or commen- surate property considered without it was attached to permanent water. MR..MYE& OF YtfQEltfG: I would just like to state, for the benefit of this audience, that, contrary to what some, of you people have said, that these resolu- tions passed -by the Y.'yoming Board, were all passed unanimously. MR. CARPENTER: I wish to say, from my observation of V/yoming, that, not only do they raise some of the best cattle and sheep, and the -most of" them,, but they raise something else quite a bit once in a while, (Laughter and applause.) MR. 'YvHINNERY; Colorado: If the states are thru, perhaps, as one of the minority of the Colorado Delegation, we. should now explain our position. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Whinnery. raises the question as to whether, at this time we will." receive minority reports. The Chair will rule that the discussion will proceed, as we have to leave the room for othor uses, then the matter will be placed before the house at 1:45. MR. WRIGHT OR NEVADA: So that there will be no doubt relative to Nevada's position, I wish to say that our resolution also was unanimous and, further, the resolution in itself indioatos that we most certainly, endorse the recommendations relative to amending the Act concerning providing definitely for local autonomy. MR. McFARLANE OF UTAH: It seems that each stato has had to get up and ex- plain what they meant r I recommend to thorn to take their secretary along as the- Utah man did. (Laughter.) MR. CARPENTER: Before v/e proceed to a discussion of these recommendations, it is only fair to you that a few of. the — as Secretary V'alters terms them — "ghosts", that are wandering around, if they can not be allayed, at least they can be somewhat explained. There wore three matters taken up in these resolutions that I feel I. should comment on before v/e open this discussion. It was sugv ccted that wo ur;=;e Congress to do something. You will realize, you district advisors, that, as members of the Department " of the Interior, neither you nor I can participate in lobbying. As in- dividuals — which you are at all times v/hen you have not been- called in your- ad- visory capacity, and not under pay by the Department of the Interior — you are froe4 of course, to lobby, I v/ish at this time to mako it plain that petitions to Congress or individual congressmen, or resolutions having to do v/ith legislation, should not be signed as a district advisor, nor should it be signed "District Advisory Board". That v/ould be similar to my asking Congress as Director of Grazing. You will .kindly bear that distinction in view and it will save you and I and everyone else embarassment, Tho second matter I wish to comment on — and Which in no way curtails your right, thru associations and as individuals, to do as you please and exercise ! • i ! : j ■ B-14 your rights, but, as members of the Department, we will refrain from lobbying. As to spooial rules of the range. I had, from every district, a moss of spe- cial rules of the rongo handed to me with the recommendation that they beihandod to the Secretary for his approval, that they bo posted and become a part of' tho' federal statutes doaling with that district. Of thoso special rules, fully fifty percent of them we ro along this lino: "Wo ro commend that commonsurato property consist of pasture land" or "not of pasture land", and so on and- so on. In other words, they were suggested constructions of the Taylor Act. Thoy wore in no sense special rules' of fair range practice. They woro the best reaction which the board members had to the problem in front of them. You are awaro that, for mo to submit to the Socretary of the Interior a con- struction of tho Act that tho beard thought was favorablo would not bo such a rulo of fair range practice that could bo applied. For that reason, tho job I had was to tako *ut constructions of tho law and put in what would bo rulos of tho range. Thoy inevitably consisted of theso mattors: "Wo rocommond such and such a class of bulls". "So many pounds of salt per critter hoad". "Wo rocom- mond" various and other mattors. One board rocommendod that no herd of snoop bo allowed to bed twice in tho samo place, Ono board in Now Moxico reoommondod — and also one in another state — that thero bo no butchering on the publio domain unless thoro had boen a license horotoforo issuocU I took theso 34 sots of spocial rules to the Solicitor's office. Ho went over them very carefully and ho said, "What about this butchoring on tho range?" I said, "It is a vory dangerous practioo, and big losses aro being sufforod." Then ho said, "Do you think it is a 'good rule?" I said, "I: oortainly do. If a man wants, to butchor, lot him put his hido in the corral, "or olse got a license to butchor on tho range." Ho said,. "Why haven* t other boards passed on it?" I said, "I suppose bocauso it was not presontod to them, and thoy didn't think - about it." ..Ho said, "What about this matter of bedding? Is that a good thing?" I said "I. think it is.". Ho said, "Why didn't other boards put it in?" I said, "Largely bocauso thoy didn't think of it." Ho said, "Jsn't this tho truth, that in most oases, tho boards adopted tho spooial rulos that other boards had passod, and maybe didn't give thorn a lot of consideration?" I had to say, "I think that is so.". Ho said, "Take thoso spocial rulos back, and, when a board passes thorn, ^havo thorn oonsidor all of tho spocial rulos that might be applicable, bocauso, when you writo statutes in tho United States lows; you havo got to do it with consideration of all possibilities." That sounded like protty good common sonso to mo, and, at tho risk of having to oxplain why I did not submit a ono of those rulos to tho Secretary, I thought it would moot with your approval, that you would rather now havo forms of each ono of tho 34 sent for your consideration in ordor that, when you do pass this legislation, you do it in a complete manner, instoad of passing pari; for oiie dis- trict and part for another one, and then next yoar start to. change, and back and fill; passing laws and changing thorn, and filling them in in about six months, would give anybody tho jitters. i , I would rather wait and have thorn right. I believe now wo are in a position to submit thorn to tho local boards. That is tho roason'that the spocial rulos havo not reached the Socretary. Tho third mattor which undoubtedly is on everyone's mind hero, and an inter- esting mattor is v/hcthor, when we como to torm pormits, tho prior uso of tho range is going to bo considorod. Soarch Soot ion 3 of tho Taylor Aotj thcro is no mention of prior uso that I can find in Soot ion 3 of tho Taylor Act. You can find, howovor, some words that, until rooontly, mo ant almost nothing to me. I bolicvo, now, altho tho mattor has not boon officially submitted or approved, that it is worthy of your consideration to tako up what was moant by the last words of Section 3 of tho Act. t ■s- B-15 . , * Whon it said "so far as consistent with the purposos and provisions of this Act, grazing privilogos rocognizod and acknowledged shall bo adequately safe- guarded", what doos that moan? Nov/, you toll mo what a licenso is. I suggest that a licenso is a grazing privilogo, rocognizod and acknowlodgod by tho local board. Is that right? Is it anything clso? IsxiH it an oxact dofinition of what was put in the last part of Sootion 3 of tho Taylor Act? Isn't it precisely a grazing privilogo which, undor tho rulos governing issuance of licenses, has boon rocognizod and acknowlodgod? ., . I . If that, is corroct, tho holdors of liconscs that conic up for term pormits will have, in addition to tho commonsurato properties, which aro recognized in tho first part of Section 5, thoy will havo in addition to that a grazing privi- logo that has boon rocognizod and acknowledged by tho issuance of a license If that is correct and thoro is inadoquato range — public range — for all of tho dependent commonsurato properties of all of tho applicants, it will bo nocossary to ask for additional qualifications bosides tho possession and control of dopondent commonsurato proporty, will it not? Is thoro not a fair chanco that in looking around for tho additional collateral, so to speak, that an applicant for a term permit must havo when ho stands in an equal class with all of tho othor dependent commonsurato proporty owners, and comes to a board that only has adequato public rango for half of them, that he ask that tho latter part of Sec- tion 3 of tho Taylor Act bo considered and that his rights hcrotoforo issued bo considorod a grazing privilogo, rocognizod and acknowledged, and, as tho owner of such, that that privilogo bo adoquatoly safoguardod. I do not know, gentlemen, whothcr this will bo tho outcome of tho mattor, but I suggost for your consideration that thought, because, if I rightly road tho sonso of this mooting, and if I can rightly predict the rosult of this assembly, wo aro going to bo horo in another yoar, standing on what we havo done this year, and preparod to tako tho third stop, which is going to bo tho issuanco of term pormits. Now, I put thoso throo matters, with such explanation as I can, before you , to wit: tho mattor of lobbying, the matter of special rulos of the rango, and tho suggestion for tho futuro as to torn pormits, becauso, if you approach term permits believing that they aro going to upset all of the recognized grazing privilogos, if you will, all tho work of tho boards, all of tho liconscs hereto- fore issuod, tl^on indcod you must approach it with considerable tropidation, but^ on tho othor hand, if you beliovo that thoso words put in thoro almost oxactly dofino what wo aro already doing, thon you can soo that thoso with grazing privi- leges nocd havo loss tropidation than thoso without them, and that the intenso dosiro of tho west to protoct their prioritios will be adoquatoly considered whon ' we roach that point. • Nov/, gentlemen, I como to tho mattor of tho consideration of tho ten resolu- tions which wo havo horo, and I wish to summarizo and call your attention to this fact, that stato after state in. coming to controversial subjects said that thoy recommended it bo loft to tho local board. You might summarizo tho ontire states' sttitudo by .saying that, whonovor you Aiavo got. a "hot" question, "lcavo it up to tho local board." < Now, I want to give you a little history. Thoro are representatives of tho local boards in front of mo. Last summer, in five days, I met with fivo boards. I mot at Burns, Oro., on ono day. I went to Boise, Idaho, the next day; Elko, Nevada, tho noxt day, and Salt Lako tho fourth day, and Craig, Colorado, tho 5th day. Fivo states; fivo boards. And I think I got a fair cross soction. I think they wcro considoring appeals and, in somo casos, original liconscs. I wish to state, now, that I took tho roquost of thoso boards to heart, and I bolicvo thoy fairly roprosont what tho othor boards want. This is what I found: Thoy said: "Wo aro only ablo to do half a job, be- cause wo only havo half of tho information in front of us. Wo do not havo tho statistical information as to tho corroctnoss of thoso statements on commonsurato proporty. Horo is a man saying ho has 250 tons of hay ovory year. A board mem- bor who lives noxt door to him has boon passing his ranch every day for thirty m B-16 yoars and never saw but two "doodlos" of hay thoro. Wo aro not going to go into a spiral horo and say the local boards aro going to decide ovorything in a beauti- ful v/ay and nako us all happy. Thoy oan only work with such tools ao wo givo ■ thorn. Thoro is not a nombor of tho local board who thinks ho had good tools last year. Am I right? AUDIENCE: Yos. MR, CARPENTER: Wo aro going to considor some bottor tools or else wo aro going to stand still. I want to say for mysolf , personally, that, unless^ this procossion movos along a littlo all tho timo, I an going to lose as much Interest in it as you will loso in it. I took up a homestead in 1907 and bought a new grub-hook to cloar tho sagebrush, and most of tho paint is still on tho grub- hook, and most «of tho sagebrush is still thoro. I want to stay with this outfit as long as youAvant to move. You can talk about local autonomy and tho wisdom of local boards and it means just that (snap of fingors) if you aro going to stand still for thirty days. You havo to colloct and gathor. By coming horo, you aro asked to submit tho wisdom you havo loarnod from oxporionco — not as to how good you wore or how stand-pat you could bo, but whothor you could tako a stop forward in doing some- thing for the livestock industry of tho west. When you say you aro going to loavo everything with tho looal board, and furnish them with no noro tools than Circular 2 furnished them, it moans that you aro going to. loavo thorn, standing around liko a cow with a cud. You may tell tho world v;o did a "hot" job distributing rango. Do you think wo did such a "hot" job? (Chorus of nogativos.) I don?t. I think you aro going to havo to work this yoc.r hardor than you over workod, and, if this assombly disbands and novo* puts another tooth into tho thing, you aro not going to be able to do anything moro with tho applications than wo did last yoar. How long do you think ovorybody is going to bo s.atisfiod with a rehash, of what you did last yoar? Will you bo very proud if you just do that again? Will this much-vauntod idoa of local so If -government amount to anything oxcopt a weak rctroat from thoso who don»t want anything dono? An I right? (Chorus of affirma- tives and applause.) Now, gontlonon, wo aro going to tako up those nattors one by ono. Wo have asked for froo and full and frank discussion. Wo aro going into an oxocutivo sossion in which tho olootod dologatos of tho 34 boards aro going to talk and oxpross themselves, and they aro going to voto by 34 district boards without regard to stato linos, bocauso that is the only fair way for this eighty million acros to bo roprosontod. Is it not? (Chorus of affirmatives and ap- plause) And wo aro going to continue our policy if you aro willing to back ne up in this. Wo want ovorybody to bo horo and hear it, and if thoro aro any of tho dis- trict advisors that don»t want to got up and say what they say in tho prosenco of ovorybody, thoy had bottor stay away too. So, in tho twonty-fivo ninutos that aro left us, wo will not be ablo to covor thoso questions. But I an going to tako up ono of thorn, and I an going to ask for a briof tino that wo hoar only from tho district advisory boards bocauso I tako it to bo the sonsc of tho ontiro assembly that ovorything bo left to tho district boards. Very woll, it is; I Now, I an asking tho district boards what thoy are going to do with it. Thoy put it in your lap. Aro you going to tako it homo with no moro rulos than you had when you cane horo?, It is a tough job for neighbor to pass on noighbor oven in a roconnondatory way. You nay say, "Why got to making divisions and classifications?" and I will toll you why. Aft or all, this is a country ruled by law and not non. You distriot advisors do not wish to docido on tho Applications of all your noighbors with no rulos to back you, do you? You don't want to do it according to your porsonal dosiros. If you don't want to do it personally ac- cording to your porsonal dosiros, you havo got to have sono rulos. 1 B-17 Wo did not know much about rulos whon Circular 2 was nado. Wo know moro about it now bocauso wo havo worked — and you gent lemon havo workod more in do- tail with the applications than I havo, I could not spond all tho rost of tho winter going from state to state, and besides I rooognizo that if we had a fair number of delogatos horo thoy would rocognizo that this problem has certain national aspects. In Arizona thoy havo an entirely different sot-up than Montana and Idaho. It has boon of intorost to tho dolcgatos to hoar tho other sections of tho 'coun- try givo thoir points of viow and soo that such regulations as aro issuod must tako a national standpoint and at tho samo timo must lcavo sufficient leeway so that in thoir application thoy will not come too hard on a district whero thoso facts do not apply. In making our rulos or procooding further with thorn wo oxpoct to of for to ovory district board such an assortment of sharpened tools so that the board can look at thoso tools and look at thoir applications, and you will not havo to say to tho mombors of the Grazing Division whon thoy como around, "You did not furnish us with anything dofinito. I don't .mind passing on Bill JonosT applica- tion if, when I got out of this room and moot him on tho street, I can say, 'Now Bill, you got what everybody olso in your class got, and you got what tho regula- tions, which wo havo dooidod upon,- said you should get.'" .. ■ i ■ You aro not afraid to do that. That is your job in assisting in this ad- ministration. But if you don't havo more tools to work with than you did last year, you aro in tho position of saying to Bill Jonos, "I did tho bost I could for you but tho other boys woro against no-," Ko promptly goos around to tho other boys, and they say, "Not at all. Ho was tho first ono for kicking you off." Now, I don't fool that way about it, but I do fcol that Wo havo got to como down to a very serious consideration if wo aro going to got down to this assembly something to help tho local boards in 1936, and it is going to havo to be some way along tho linos that havo been outlined hero. For tho district boards to end this mooting with a resolution that ovorythinfe be loft to tho district boards would put you out of businoss and put local autonomy out of business, and put an end to what I think is a rdal oxporiment in self-government. There aro too many pooplo in the United Statos who believed that this would nevor work, who said, "Whon noighbor passes on noighbor, you will get injustico; when people with selfish interests pass on others, you got nowhere." At tho end of oighteon months, thoy will say, "Tako it and lot an impartial' man docido on it." Who is tho "impartial man?" Who is tho Moses who will go to Mb. Sinai and decide thoso things? I don't JtflOW any Sinai to go to, and I haven't got whiskers onough to protend to be Moses. Thcro is only ono placo I know of to go, and that is tho desort and you men who are out horo handling it. Lot's toko this baby homo, sot it on our knee and soo what wo Can do with it. I want to say this, as regards the foars in every- body's hoart, that I have livod to see some of those foars down, and probably I will livo to soo somo of thoso foars proporly substantiated. As yet, I havo not seen ono of tho initial foars como true. At tho start of this, I was just down in phoonix, whero they havo no Taylor grazing districts in tho state oxcept tho strip. I am not dociding whothcr tho strip is in Utah or Orogon or Arizona. Outsido of tho strip, thoy havo no graz- ing districts in Arizona, and man aftor man, legit inato oporators, livestock op- erators, camo to mo and said they don't want a district because, when you talk about a local board going to toll mo how to run my business, you arc not talking to mo. Do you hoar that whore tho mon know what theso local boards arc? You do not. At tho start of this, whon I wont from stato to state, thorc was not a careful, substantial, livo stock-nan — and particularly tho largor operators — that did not havo that f oar in his heart. I ask you mon roprosonting the largo and snail oporators if the action of tho local boards and tho stato committees in tho conforonco last night did not express sufficient trust in local boards to •■r 'r^T B-18 allay that f oar onco and for all. Do you believo that? . (Chorus of affirmatives and applause.) Vory well. Thon thoso substantial operators in Arizona havo a foar that is unfoundod, that wo have allayed, New, thero *jas cmothor foar that, -when wo started off, soemed to possess everybody,- and that wis that cattlo and shocp men could not got along, I havo attondod beard nootings, not knowing whothor the ncn v/oro cattle or sheep non, and, hearing then pass on applications, it was mpossi- bio to say whothor thoy wore cattle or snoop men. Isn't that right, gontlomcn of tho boards? (Chorus of affirmatives.) So you havo got a rocord of real accomplishment. You bury this old idea that, if you aro a shoopman, you want to wrcok tho range, and, if you are a cow- nan, you want to wrock the shoepman. That is behind us.^ Then wo aro not afraid of a democratic sot-up — ono man; ono vote --and wo aro not afraid of tho boards passing on those applications. Wo have got those follows in back of us. Now, wo have another foar that is in front of us, and that is the foar that was expressed, that it would not all be left to the local board. It is all going to bo left to tho local board in a rocommendatory wry, but tho local board will bo unablo to function in a way oommondable to itself or in a way in which it can advanco in tho administration unless it is furnished with more tools than Circu- lar 2 gave it. So that brings us down to tho question of whether wo aro really going to do something with thoso matters or not. I have divided it into four subjects: allotment of rango, division of dependent property, definition of dependent prop- erty, and foes. In coning now to tho first subjoct of allotment of ranges, I on going to mako a briof explanation, thon I am going to call on the different board members for an expression of opinion. Wo havo fifteen minutes to discuss that, then wo will toko up tho other subjects. If wo do not finish tho ether subjects until six o'clock tonight; wo will thon have an evening session to take up tho matter of organization and improvements, which is not a matter for debate, but a matter just to bo prosontod by solcctod speakers. But, if this assembly amounts to any- thing, wo aro going to do something, and I take it to bo your will to stay right hore until you do it. Is that right? (Applauso.) Tho allocation of the rango: Some agroo it should bo done; all say it should bo loft to tho local boards. Different onos wonder this way or that way how to do it. It is impossible, in my- opinion, to advance in any way in tho administra- tion of tho rango without untertaking, in somo way, an allotmont of it. (Applauso.) Now, I feel that thoso 34 roproscntativos of 34' boards, should toko a firm stand on' that. It is a littlo hard for a local board meeting alone, if left en- tirely discretionary with thorn, and an oporator comes in — maybe a friend of yours — and he says, "You don't havo to do anything with allotments this year. Wo are all human; wo all try not to troad on any more toes than wo havo to, and wo will all take tho easiest way out of it. I have found that so and no doubt vou have. If it is tho unanimous opinion of tho 34 districts hore that somo allotment should bo mado, then, if you mako somo allotment, you can say to the man who objects: "Tho board had no discretion; we had to go into some allot- ments. Would you rathor do that, or would you rather say to tho man: "It was loft to us, whether wo would do it or not, and wo dooidod to do it. Isn't it a lit- tlo fair, now that wo aro all horo, to mako ono rule, a general, rule, which will , B-19 apply to tho 34 districts as to wh.oth.or they do or not. As to how nuch is dono, that will depend on the local boards, "but I doubt whether any of then will ovor touch that subject unloss sonothing is dono about it* In Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, California, . Oregon and Novada,' tho natter has boon moro or loss a moot matter, and I darosay, until" -it was brought up and brought to j'our attention yostorday, nany of you dolcgatos did not rcalizo it was almost impossibio to,continuo opo rating this show if wo did not. take ono stop forward, and that ono stop forward was necessarily something better than what wo have dono. Wo havo pas sod on numbors and listod usors. Wo havo* a rango examination sufficient from a practical standpoint, whon appliod with tho brains of tho live- stock industry, to mako somo allotments on tho range • They may bo in some dis- tricts only allotments by classos — no sinplo cattlo and sheep lino — but what- .cvor you do is going to bo baokod up and incorporated, if that is your wish, in ovory liconso issued. Tho nattor of enforcement is going to bo done by tho Department. You havo boon told that tho administration of tho range can not bo dologatod, and it can not, but tho rogulation of tho rango has boon placed almost entiroly within your hands. In 97-^ of your recommendations for liconses, your decision was final, bocauso it was adopted by tho Secretary of the Interior. Don't let anybody toll ycu that, bocauso you havo no final say in administration, you amount to nothing. Thero is less than 2jg!> go any further. For tho great majority, your action is final, bocauso it is approvod by the So c rotary. But, on tho mattor of enforce- ment of rulos, wo do not oxpoct you to take any stop further than a posted noti- fication of advico, and wo fool that tho fodcral enforcement agencies should take caro of tho onforccmont alone and singlo handed — how do you liko it? (Applauso.) Pooplo rosont a distriot board monbor coming out and trying to police tho district, and I' don't think it is fair to ask you to do it, I admit there was somo quostion in my mind whon wo started. There is nono nor/". Tho Division of Investigations investigated homestoaders when wo had thorn, but thoy havon,t got thorn any more.* Thoy aro adequately proparod to mako those .investigations, and spoodily. Wo havo, organizod in the Unitod States, a complete fodcral judiciary that can handle it, and violations of tho Taylor Grazing Act rule's will simply be liko violations of postal rulos, violations of narcotic rulos, and othor fed- eral rulos, and should be takon care of in tho same manner* When tho local boards roalizo that thoy don't have enforcement natters .in thoir hands at all, that thoy aro merely recommendatory in the administrative meetings as divorced from enforcomont, I believe it will bo a welcome circum- scribing of their duties and that thoy will bo able to soo more cloarly what thoy will havo to do, and that thoy will more choorfully undortakc their duties, bo- causo thoy will not have tho onus of the onforccmont of tho criminal lav/ upon them* For that roason — it is now 25 minutos aftor eleven, and wo give up this room at 11; 30 — I an going to adjourn this mooting until 1:45, and ask tho dol- cgatos to bo promptly in thoir soats at that tino and wo will take the natter up for discussion. Tho mooting is adjournod, (Roooss for lunch at 11:30 AM.) — wr i B -20 SECOND DAY Afternoon Session (Meeting called to order by Chairman F. R, Carpenter at 1:45 PM.) We have taken lots of bad news. You have taken lots of bad news during the year and I have takon a little, but there are two very fortunate happenings .that' have started within the last year. One we had nothing to do with, and wo take it as it comes, and the other ypu have all had something to do with and now you are going to toko it as it is told to you. The first is the rain. I know that you are all glad to have this rain and' that it will do a Lot rf good. The second is a telegram received from the Secre- tary this morning, about a long-mooted and debated question. Secretary Walters is going to present that to you, MR. WALTERS: Friends of tho western states: There was received at 12:13 o'clock this afternoon, the following telegram, addressed to mo, in response .to a telegram which was sent 'out by me yesterday afternoon. I will read you tho tele- gram, wh'iph is all that will be necessary, I apprehend: "Department has held that proceeds of assessments levied on grazing licenses by division boards are private funds and not public money." (Applause.) "Funds already collected may bo oxpended by the boards for purposes for which collected if such purposes are not unlawful or in violation of departmental regulations. Tho procedure in levying assessments, in many instances, howover was improper and no further assessments should be made until departmental regula- tions are issued. Harold L. Ickes, Secretary of tho Intorior." MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Secretary, and, thru you, wo thank Secretary Ickes. Wo have, waited a long time f cr this. It means, gentlemen, that your funds are roleasod. It means you can' go on spending them for the legitimate pur- poses for which they vroro loviod. It means that there will be forthcoming very- soon regulations that will guido you hotter in the collection of those funds in tho future. Tho improprieties mentioned in the tologram refer to our using franked on- velcpes — as much of a reflection on mo as on anyone, because, in some cases, thru mistakes, district boards used frankod envelopes to collect privato money. That was improper. It was not dono intentionally and it is not a Class A offense under the felony acts of tho government. Thcso things you will have now, and also instructions regarding tho pressure — which the Government is willing to back you up in ' — in tho denial of licenses and so forth in tho collection of the balance. Wo will ask you not to try to collect any of the balanco until instructions are issued, but thoy are now re- leased, and you can go ahead and use thorn. Now wo will proceed to business. I am roferring now to tho logally accred- ited dolegates of 34 districts, who will take the sole part in tho discussion before us, the privilogo of tho floor having boen accorded to all comers up to this time. Thoro will bo a roll taken of all of the 140 dolcgatos horo present. MR. WHINNERY OF COLORADO: I wish at this tine to yiold ny p:.aoe until our Colorado committoo completes their general roport, then I wish to follsw thoir report. Tho report that they are gotting now, wo are all agreed on, and I be- lieve they aro roady to moko that roport. ■BOM ■ ni am ^r^^^PP'SPSIiPIIP B-21 . m CARPENTER: At this tino, the Chair v,ill rulo that any further reports fron rtitoTaHrlttooa are out of order, that the ttoe is short enough nov, that ^ rill tal-o w executive business, that all further state reports can bo filed It the dS and bo o^nplotod in the roeord or, after the completion of our loxoou- tivo business, v/ill bo taken up m full. ■ MR. TOIINNERY: Hoy/ about tho minority report. '? r. MR. CARPENTER: ^ That v;ill have to bo filod nov;. Asm. havo passed those re- ports, I take it that you v/ill not v/ish to go further into that at this tav If it cones up in tho topics, you, beinga regularly accredited dologato, you can speak on that topic and speak your mind. MR. WHINNERY: Thank you. MR. CARPENTER: Tho first topic is tho nattor of allotment of tho range. Tho question is v/hothor wo should undertake, in tho 1936 licenses to tackle the problem of allotment of rango. The Chair, in order to bring it to a head, v/ill entertain a motion in regard to v/hat should be done on allotment of the range. MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: I offor this resolution: Rosolved that somo rango allotment bo made in all 1936 liconsos providing nocossary information is available for such action. MR. CARPENTER: If you v/ill hand that to mo, I v/ill rend it thru tho "mike". ' (Mr. Taylor hands tho resolution to Mr. ,'Carpentcr.) MR. CARPENTER: "Resolved that . somo rango allotment bo made in all 1936 li- censes, provided necessary information is available for such action. Is that correct, Mr. Taylor? -MR. TAYLOR: Yos. ' MR. CARPENTER: Do I hoar a sooond to that motion? VOICE: I socond tho motion, «. . MR. CARPENTER: Motion is made and seconded. Wo v/ill nov/ call for discus- sion of this motion from tho oloctcd dolcgatos. MR. TOBIN OF NEVADA: I v/ish to add tho amendment:' that all allotments granted during 1936 be subject to the discretion of tho district board. MR. CARPENTER: Tho amendment offered v/as a proviso that all allotments would be subject to tho action of tho -district boards. I may say, in order to clarify this, that this docs not compol the boards to moke any particular allotment, but it doos say, and it leaves them tho judge, as to v/hothcr tho necessary informa- tion is available, but, if the nocossary information is available, i£ v/ould re- quire each board to talco up the matter of allotment and act on it . They might makn only one allotment or ton, but t hoy v/ould havo to art on that natter, pro- viding they first had sufficient info mat ion available to do so prudently. Doos that ansv/er your '.ar.iondi.iont? MR . TOBIN: Tho v/ords I use arc "tho discretion of tho advisory board." MR. CARPENTER: Ho adds that his amendment is that he v/ould mako tho grant- ing of allotments discretionary with tho district boards, instead of requiring tho district boards, if thoy find they havo the available information, to go, tato the matter. Are you ready to discuss tho amendment? The Chair recognises I,r. Cox of Utah. . MR. TOBIN: I ariso to a point of. order. As maker of the amendment, I be- lieve it is my right to first speak on tho amendment. . I m - , man '•-■•' I H B-22 MR. CARPENTER: That is correct. If you wish to do so, you nay have i that right, right now. Will you cono up in front of tho "uiko" ploase? It has boon called to tho Chair's attention that sono of tho dologates'; scats are occupiod by thoso who are not delegates. Will you ploaso do then tho courtosy of vacating tho seats so the dclogatos can get their soats? Wo will tako a short roooss until the delegates can occupy thoir proper seats, /, .Gontlonon, Sonator Tobin of Nevada will prosent an anondncnt to this notion, I an going to ask him to read the notion and the onendnent, and then spook on it. MR. TOBIN: I will read tho notion, as stated by Mr. Carpenter, that sono range allotnent bo nado in all 1936 licenses, provided necessary information is available for such action. Tho anendncnt I nado fron tho floor a few ninutcs ago is as follows: that allotnents bo granted subjoct to tho discretion of the: advi- sory board in which application is nado, . My reason shall bo brief. I feel that the advisory boards aro bost quali- fied to pass upon thoso allotnents. I do not boliovo it is proper for us at this tine to nalco a blanket rulo covoring all applications for allotnents in tho vari- ous statos which aro represented hero today. I think, as I have said already, that the nen you have elcoted to represent you as advisory boards havo successfully fulfilled tho job you gave then. Let's lot then carry it on and soo whether you aro entitlod to an allotnent. MR. CARPENTER: In order to save tino and got thoso issuos cloar, I on won- dering if thero is an issue botweon the original notion and tho anondncnt. I an going to ask tho senator a question and get his answer, and see if wo can got this thing oloarly boforo us: Do you understand tho original notion to be such that tho Board is deprived of thoir discrotionary powor in granting or withholding individual allotments? MR. TOBIN; In naking my anondnont, gontlonon, it was with tho intention of clarifying tho original notion. I for one would bo vailing to withdraw my anend- ment, and tho other nan who nado tho othor -notion withdraw his, and incorporaxo in ono, if it is agreeable to you all. ■i. MR. CARPENTER: Would you like to wait and redraft tho anondnont, putting it all into this fom, or do you wish to wait and subnit it as an anondnont to the original instead? MR. TOBIN: It would bo satisfactory to ne to withdraw both notion and anond- ncnt , ' MR. CARPENTER: Can you rodraft the notion right now? MR, TOBIN: Yes* MR. CARPENTER: At this tine, wo will procoed with the debato on tho anond- nent, and tho Senator will rodraft it. Will tho consent of tho nan fron Now Mex- ico bo granted to such a procedure? MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: I don«t know until I know what ho proposos to bring out. MR. CARPENTER: I will ask Sonator Tobin and Mr. Taylor to sit down together ani rodraft that anondnont. In ordor to save tino, whilo that is going on, wo will proceed to another .topic. Maybo wo will want sono resolutions drafted on another topic. The next topic is tho natter of the division of dependent proper- ties — division into classes, whereby thoso within or' on tho fringe of tho dis- trict arc in one class, and thoso not within tho fringe of a district arc in a junior class. - ijil Li |u^vr! if i.^ii^uuli i^i.^p^^^wp B -23 MR. CHRISTENSEN OF CALIFORNIA: Last night, in our discussions with rcfcr- onco to dopondcnt propcrtios within or near, or contiguous to a district, wo thought, for tho host intorosts of thoso who uso the public domain, that tho word "contiguous" nay bo a littlo nis construing and wo would rathor havo thoso within or near d district. Wo havo thought about it a good doal since, and. our cbnnit- too offors tho prosont resolution: , Resolved: That dopondont proportios be soparatcd into thoso within or near a district and thoso not so noar a district. MR. CARPENTER: Do I hoar a second? VOICE: Read that again ploaso. i : i MR. CHRISTENSEN: Rosolvod, that depondont proportios bo soparatcd into thoso within or noar a district, and those not so near a district. MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIA: Socond the notion- MR. BRAY OF COLORADO: That night bo all right, but wo would havo to have in that a oustonary usage. If property in ono district has been usod as commensu- rate, in another district it certainly will havo to be near — not nearest, but noar anyway. Wo can't subnit to driving out of Utah 200,000 head of sheep in tho wintor. In Colorado, wo havo non who havo wondorful ranches and commensurate property; that proporty should havo to bo usod just tho sano as if it was in Utah. I an doubtful that Utah has onough connensurato proporty to take care of that livo stock. \ MR. CARPENTER: Before wo go further with tho nerits of this question, I wish to raiso tho ono of forn. Do you think this is in the right forn to bo con- sidered, • or would you like a connittco to redraft this littlo informal resolution to bring it straight beforo us 2 VOICE: It should be rodraftod. MR. CARPENTER: Tho Chair trill ask Mr. Christcnson of California and Mr. McFarlano of Utah to redraft that resolution to fairly prosont it to tho assembly. MR. CECIL OF OREGON: On behalf of tho Qrogon delegation, I wish to nako the following motion* Rosolvod, that further and more definite definitions of con- nonsurato property be nado. MR. CARPENTER: Lot's soe if I can quote that corroctly. Mr. Cecil, on this topic of further and nore definite definitions of commensurate property, has inovod that further and- nor o dofinitc definitions of connonsurato proporty bo nade. Is that correct, Mr. Cocil? MR. CECIL: Yes. GENTLEMAN FROM CALIFORNIA: I second tho motion. ' c MR. CARPENTER: Is thoro any point about the form of tUiis notion, or is it clear onough to properly bring it up 1 It would seen that this is very clearly put. That docs not raiso tho question as to hew you will dofino it, but just sinply that it is desired that further and nore dofinite definitions of commensu^ rate property bo nado. Pending tho bringing in of the other two resolutions, to bring tho natter beforo the dclogatos, wo will take up tho quostion, which is now boforo tho houso, that furthor and nore definite definitions of commensurate proporty should be nado. Wo tail hoar re-narks on that question. MR. LEE OF IDAHO: That is an answer to quostion No. 5?~~ MR. CARPENTER: Is it, Mr. Cocil? ■ B-24 MR. CECIL* Yos. MR. C/RFENTER: Yes. Docs anyone wish to ncikc any romarks for or gainst tho further defining and making more definite of what is comnonsurtttc property? MR FRANCIS OF UTAH; On tho "natter of furthor defining, it. hus been brought before our attention in our Board, and perhaps in yours, the nabtor of whether forest permits shall bo considered as conmonsurato property. I don t soo it listed hero and I think porhaps wo should have a discussion on it. MR. CARPENTER: Tho natter of whether forest pemits, or base used for forest permits, should bo considered as commensurate property --should this re- solution not pass, it would not bo necessary to consider that, In an assemblage of this kind, Mr. Francis, and with the limited tine we have, it would seem to me that the matter of forost permits as connonsurato property, and basis used^for forest pemits as commensurate property, the only reasonable way v/c can get at it . is to have a drafting committee and consider closo study by a small body of men. Our idea is that, when the Division of Gracing has drafted as noar as they can along tho outlines as put on this program, that it would then bo submitted to the adviLry boards for criticism. I fool, in a meeting of this kind to open up on forest permits would not, get us. anywhere. We are no roly dealing ^h the ^oad principle. Do you want us to work out a fair basis for forest permits olonfe with ether things? Would that bo the wishes of this assembly, and not go into detail? I fool it would got us into a long discussion and really we cou.d not button it up" when wo wore thru. MR. WRTMERY: In viow of what you have just said, I believe that our chair- man here, Mr. Pitchforth, should go out with the committee you just sent out - Mr. McFarlano and Mr. Christenson - as we are doubly interested in that very question, and it would probably save time by hin being out there and satisfy this group of men or anyono that ho nay designate. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Whinnory of Colorado asked for tho courtesy which con^ only bo extended with tho unanimous approval of the house. Is there rny opposi- tion to Mr. Pitchforth boing added to the committee? (No objections). If .not, it is so ordered, and v/c will ask Mr. Pitchforth to retire with that committee. VOICE: Would it bo right at this tine that we begin to define connonsurato proporty — to go into tho geographical relationship of it? MR*' CARPENTER: That would cone undor tho distances of dependent property and not undor this. Are thoro any furthor ronarks on this resolution? MR. TOBIN: I am speaking on ny original amendment. If I am in order at the present tine, I withdraw the -amendment. I understand that we havd a substitute motion. ' MR. CARPENTER: Would it be with your consont, Senator, that we finish tho one we. are new considering and then cemo right back to yours? Arc there any further remarks on the necessity for further defining and making more definite what commonsurato property is? MR. LEE OF NOT MEXICO: Isn't that a rathor complicated question for this body to determine at this time? Connonsurato property in one state nay noo. have the same value as it has in some other state. We in Now Mexico, of course, con- sider that water has tho highest commonsurability, and that the other ocwuui« ability mus* be joined or connocted with that ownership. So what fits Colorado, Montana and Utah might not fit New Mexico or Arizona. I hope you will bear that in mind. w ! B-25 MR. CARPENTER: That is correct. In Colorado, in gonoral, v/horo I lived in , , t ho fountains, water would havo no valuo at all, and, in Nov/ Moxico, cultivatod food would havo no value. Tho idea v/as that this Y/ould "bo an oxprossion from- tho assembled dolcgatos of tho district advisory boards, that they desire, bofdrci they start thoir deliberations ovor lioonscs, that they would liko a littlo bettor de- finition of pormanont v/ator in Now Mexico, and a littlo hotter dofinition of feed and other classos of proporty — mako then a littlo moro sharply -dofincd and lcnov/ '..; the valuo Of each of then. Wo aro not going to go into v/hat thoy are or hov/ to do it, but, if it is tho dosiro of the district advisory boards, as I undorstood fron my mooting v/ith thorn, that thoy v/antod those things mado noro dofinito and pooplo v/antod to buy this proporty if they roally know v/hat to. buy. It is only fair to thorn, bocauso they might be put out' of business if thoy don't -get it, or thtfy night got tho v/rong kind of property. It -would in no way put a difforcnt kind of proporty into a difforont state. Fron tho so ton statos, and fron thOso definitions, tho district boards v/ould pick out tho onos that apply in thoir districts and only those. For instanco, :tho ncv/ circular, if this rosolution passos, will havo a noro dofinito definition of; ton- porary or permanent water. -It v/ill ,also havo a bettor dofinition of food put up | and food purchasod, food v/hich is actually fed and food which is raised and not fed. Cash crops v/cro thrown into tho hopper last year. That v/as obviously un- fair, but it v/as duo to tho fact that our definitions v/oro not vory procisc., •«• If this rosolution oarrios, you v/ill havo a noro dofinito set of definitions of tho various kinds of connensurato property. Tho Boards v/ill thoroforo tako out that circular and uso tho onos applicablo to thoir districts in passing on applications. Any furthor ronarks on tho nccossity for furthor definitions of connonsurato proporty? Aro you roady for tho question? VOICE: Do v/o undorstand you novr, in view cf v/hat floor connont there is horo, that, boforo v/o board nombors attonpt to define in individual cases, v/o v/ill got a regulation fron your offico? MR. CARPENTER: Tho question v/as v/hcthcr the districts v/ould undorstand, if this passod, that thoy v/ould not pass on 1936 licenses until thoy had noro dofi- nito dofinitions. And that is oxactly right. A passing of this resolution v/ill moan you aro dissatisfiod to go another yoar v/ith Circular 2 as it v/as issuod and you v/ant something to go a stop further to uso in your deliberations. MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIA: Ovor in our state, v/o aro a litflc bit difforcntly situatod than any othor part of the Unitod Statos. Wo aro in a high altitudo and our dopondont ]roporVy is v/hat v/o aro producing, v/hich v/o can only market v/ith v/hat livestock v/o havo. For that reason, it is dopondont connonsurato proporty v/o shall stand on in our country. It is not dependent upon tho rango just to raiso our stock in tho sumnor so v/o can got them off our ranches long enough to harvost our crops and bring thorn in and market those crops v/hich v/o raiso thru our livo stock, so our commensurate proporty is very much diffcront from v/hat it is in Arizona, It is dopondont upon that rango or v/o oanTt nalco a go of it and that is tho only way v/o can markot tho produco which wo raiso in our country,. This is for northorn California* MR." CARPENTER: Any noro ronarks boforo tho quostion is submitted? I v/ill first call for a voico voto, thon, if thcro is any dosiro for a poll, oach dis- trict advisor duly accroditod will bo polled and his voto rocorded. Tho so in favor of tho resolution that further and noro definite dofinitions of connonsurato proporty should bo made, will signify by saying "ayo"... Thoso opposod, tho samo sign. ..... .The "ayes" havo it unaninously. I will ask Mr* Tobin to speak on the ncv/ rosolution that ho and Mr. Taylor have agreed upon. J.J_J!!ftJJU>u u~m>±*= 4. . « 4 B-26 ttp TORTW. I havo asked permission to withdraw ny anondncnt. Wo have ' sssrs..' f «—«t *»«*» .,pii*tio» ■». -d... , Mr. Chairuan, I novo its adoption. MR TAYLOR: I nay bo hanging on toohnicalitios, but I think I should prop- erly %$£** formor noticed present the substitute notion. HE; CARPENTER: If thoro is no objection, it will bo ordered that way. : VOICE: I second tho notion. m. CARPENTER: Motion is nado and see ended j^^'^^£f s^ay_ bo nado in all 1936 lioonsos to individuals, P^JwL^rtTSt prov£din6 Advisory Boards whon application is nado. IE. BURSEY OF UTAH: I thinlc that "oonnunitios" should bo added in thoro. ' MR. CARPIMER, I -y say. gentlonon as to who you ^ «™ * ™°£ tern pornit to, is governed by the to™ ^Vetunlificd person " andlthat plification, that it ^P WW b ^ ^ybedy else tha't was qualified. I IIS SSffl^fe^S^ -a? o/foct would be arable to to, MR. TOBIH: That part of tho resolution I had nothing to do vdth. I will > ask Mr. MoFarlano if ho has any objoetions. j 1IR. McFARLANE: Would that cover it under tho original Act? ■MR. CARPENTER: If thoy aro qualified users, yos. MR; McFARLANE: If the original Act would cover grazing ■^^^aa' l don't think I havo any objections to having that part of it withdraw. MR CARPENTER- Then I will chanEo "individuals, partnerships or corpora- allotnonts. is a qualified pomittoo in tho state. MR. CARPENTER: In other words, you would say the v^rd Honorary" should bo usod in there, until wo eono to a permanent allotnont. MR. DORRIS: Yos. MR. CARPENTER: I Taylor? .' MR. TAYLOR: As far as I an conccrnod thinlc that is proper. Would that bo okay with you, Mr ^UmM ; B -27 VOICE: Suppose that is changed tc "qualified applicants" instead of P quali- fied persons"? MR. CARPENTER: I think that is a good point. Would the word "temporary" suit vou, Mr. Taylor? I will do a little drafting and see if wo got „his right. The resolution now reads as follows: "That somo temporary rango allotnonts nay ho nado in all 1936 liconsos to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary^ infoma- tion is available for such action, and subject to discretion of advisory boards v/hon application is submitted." MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: Would you mind reading tho resolution again, vory slowly, so we can got tho full sonso? MR. CARPENTER: "Rosolvod , that sono tonporary rango allotnonts nay bo nado in all 1936 licenses to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary information is available for such action, and subject to discretion of Advisory Boards when application is subnittod." MR. OLIVER LEE: .Pardon no. I think tho word "sono" should be stricken. MR. CARPENTER: If thoro is no' objection, wo will not chango any wording at this tino. Wo will just disouss tho notion. MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIS: -Just one word, that is "qualifiod applicants". It nirht bo that tho advisory board would fool like a nan that was not qualifiod to got a permanent permit should bo allowed a permit for this year, or temporary liconso. I would not wont to bo tiod to that. MR. CARPENTER: This is a "qualified applicant", not a qualified preference permittee, and everybody is a qualified applicant that is a citizen or. declares his intention to become such. I will road this again: "That some temporary range allotments may bo nado in all 1936 licenses to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary infornation is available for such action, and subject to discretion of Advisory Boards when ap- plication is subnittod." MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: I move that tho resolution bo amondod by sub- stituting tho word "shall" for "somo". MR. CARPENTER: The amendment is offered that, instead of reading that "some temporary range allotments may be made", that "somo temporary allotments shall bo mado". Is that corroct? Do I hoar a socond to the amendment? VOICE: Second. MR. CARPENTER: Aro you roady to debate on tho amondnont change, which is to change tho word "may" to "shall". MR. REDD OF UTAH : If wo chango tho word "may" to "shall", it will destroy or nullify to somo extent tho discretionary powors that wo also grant tho Board, so, in this particular rospoct, I think it should stand as it is. MR. CARPENTER: Wo have onough to go ovor. I am going to ask that all dis- cussion on tho motions bo limited to two minutes each. Would that bo with your wishos? MR. TOBIN: Tho chair nood not bo afraid that I will tako up vory much time.' I agree with the gentleman from Utah. I consider that the amondnont pro- posed would destroy tho intont of tho resolution. I sincerely hope tho gentleman from Now Moxico will roalizo that and kill tho amondmont. MR. McFARLANB: I would liko to see that word "sono" cut out entirely, bo- causo I think it woakens it# -— B-28 MR. CARPENTER: Point of order. You will confine yourself to the notion^ MR. OLIVER LEE OF MEW MEXICO: I an afraid you got nixod up on ny nnondnont. It was the , word "sono" that I objocted to, i MR. CARPENTER: I will road tho resolution again: "Resolved that sono tem- porary rango allotnents nay bo nado in all 1956 licenses to qualified applicants providing necessary infornation is available for such action, -and subject to the discretion of AdvSory Beards when application is nado." The **^J%^° change that "nay" to "shall", and wo will confine our remarks to that anondncnt. MR. OLIVER LEE: Pardon no; I don't object to tho word "nay" but I object to" tho word' "some"-, which is indofinito. MR. CARPENTER: You wish tho word "sono" stricken, and you wish to withdraw vour forncr anondnont. * ' . i; ; MR. OLIVER LEE: Yos, as it is understood. MR. CARPENTER: With tho consent of tho house, Mr. Loo mil withdraw his fomor anondraont, and suggest a change reading as fellows: "That temporary range Sm lo nado",Gwith no "sono" in it. Now, what do you say? Quo at ion is en the anondnont to take tho "sono" out. Are you ready for tho question? All those in favor of talcing the "sono" out, vote "aye" "^"^^ ^ sign (one opposed) In the absence of a request for division, tho "sono" will bo takon out. MR. REDD; OF UTAH: I novo to further anend by striking tho last four words of the notion. If you will read the notion with tho last four words eliminated, I think it. will be sinplcr and noro cloar, MR. CARPENTER: The anondod ro solution roads as f ollows : "That temporary range "allotnents my bo nade in all 1936 licenses to qualified W^^' Pro- viding necessary infornation is available for such action, and sub3.ct to the discretion of Advisory Boards, when application is nade." Those are ^o four disputed words:, "when application is § nado." The notion of Mr. Rodd is to strike tho words, "whoh application is nado." I will now read tho notion as.it would read with those four words onitted: "That temporary range allotnents nay bo nado in all 1936 licenses to qualified apSc^ts, priding necessary infornation is available for sueh action and subject to discretion of Advisory Boards" period. Any discussion on that. MR. TOBIN: I would liko to ask the gontlonan fron Utah, thru the Chair, his purposo in his anendnorit. MR. CARPENTER: Tho Chair will ask Mr. Redd to explain the purposo of his anondncnt. MR. REDD: I thought it was a short cut and would save asking Mr. Tobin tho question of tho necessity for the words in tho first place. MR. CARPENTER: I wish to say to tho senator fron Nevada that, when you talk about resolutions, you want to know your stuff. MR. TOBIN: I ask that tho Chair bo authorized to cast tho necessary veto. MR. CARPENTER: The Chair has strickon out the four last words, and will road the resolution, which, with your consent, will be presented now for Aobato. "That tenporary range allotnents nay be nade in all 1936 licenses to qualified appfioS providing necessary infornation is available for such act -n and subject to the discretion of Advisory Boards." Any ^rth°Yr WifXr sa - the question? All those in favor of tho resolution as anondod, signify b„ say ing "ayo" Opposod, sane sign (none opposod) Carried. The Chair will now ask Mr. Christenson to report. Will you cone up to the "niko", Mr. Christonsen, plcaso. _ ?■ B-29 MR. CHRISTEN SEN: Wo did not chango our original notion. Wo amondod it with a littlo addition. I will road the entiro notion at tho prosont tmo:. "Rcsolvod that dopondent proportios bo scparatod into thoso within or near a district and thoso not so noar tho district, with first proforenco to bo given to tho owner of land and livestock whoso ownership depends on tho use of public lands adjacent to his proporty and who has had sufficient prior uso,11 MR. CARPENTER: Any socond to that notion? I call your attention to tho fact that this notion goos a stop' further, and goes to zoning within districts. MR. BRAY OF COLORADO: Wo arc not altogether satisfied with tho now notion. To got away fron this "noar,, nearer, noarost" businoss, I would like to make this as a substitute notion: that noithor district nor stato linos shall be consid- ered in determining connensurato property, and that only custorary past uso bo considorcd. (Applause.) f • • MR. CARPENTER: You havo heard tho amendment • Is thofo a sooond to tho V ill' ar.iondnont? x^. . ■.' VOICE: Second. 1.21. CARPENTER: Wo will hoar remarks on the anendnent, which is that stato linos will bo disregarded and nothing considered but custonary uso. MR. BRAY: Tho roason that I nadc that' notion, I had a groat deal of experi- ence in helping draw those district linos. Stato linos, county lines, and imagi- nary lines, coning up otornally. Wc woro assured that the district linos would only bo temporary and, with this assuranco, wo consented to uso stato linos. Ifow if wo had had our way about it, wo would havo taken in tho eastern part of Utafr in our district, and would havo boon glad to, but wo did not havo our way. Nov; the stato lino is tho district lino. Tho connonsurato property lies in Colorado. To got this connonsurato property used whoro it has boon in tho habit of 'being used is tho purpose of ny notion. (Applause.) MR. REDD: I an opposod to tho notion. I bolicvo you gcntloncn will agroo that, if this notion provails, the intent of the Act itself will be nullified. I i-cnind you of 'Soction 3 of tho Act. It is true tho passage of this resolution will allow tho porsistenco of past practicos, but ronenbor the Act was passod to correct bad practicos, practicos that woro unfair to the pcoplo who happened to livo adjacent or on tho range. Wo have not hoard one statement fron tho gcntlo- nan fron Colorado in opposition to tho statements made yostorday about Grant and San Juan countios. Our land and irrigation v/ator is very limited. Wo aro dopond- ing entirely upon this winter range. It is true, if Eastern Utah was included with Wostorn Colorado, thoy, ovor there, at tho foot of tho Rookies, with thoir . plentiful water and nico ranches and forest per. tits, would have an idoal sot-up. They havo got tho summer rango and have got the ranches. But what aro you going to do 'with tho towns of Monticcllo, etc. Thoy aro out on tho doscrt almost liko old oows or broon-tailod horses around Alkali Springs. Tho only chanco thoy have got to nako a halfway doccnt living is to have tho first call on this. I can say this to you: Wo do have noro winter rango in Eastern Utah than tho ranch proporty or tho connonsurato -property will qualify or wo can use, but, to tho oxtont that wo can uso it, to tho extent that our pooplo do roquirc it, wo insist that the Act itsolf must bo followed. If this amendment provails, it will bo a terrible thing. This meeting would break up a half of them, or nearly half of then at least would go hone bitterly disappointod. Wo would bocomc confronted with suit after suit. Sinco wo arc so dividod in tho interpretation or tho understanding of thoso mattors, I boliovo wo should not bind tho advisory committoos too strongly, bc- causo wo can't agroe on definitions. Since 'the advisory committees are just about as capablo of doto mining this as it soens this body is, why not lot thorn intor- prct their actions and bo'guidod by Soction 3, and lcavo this matter to tho dis- cretion of the advisory boards, at loast for tho noxt yoar. B-30 BR*. TOBIN: I approciato tho position token by Mr. Redd and, in^ordor to^as- 'sist hin in his apparont troublos/ I propose .on anondmont to tho notion. I trill ask that tho gontlcnan road tho resolution again. MR. BRAY: "That neither district nor state linos shall bo considorod in de- termining connonsurato property, and that only customary past uso he considered. MR. TOBIN: I propose tho following amendment., Add: Subjoct to tho discre- tion of tho Advisory Boards. ■ .. > 'i MR. CHRISTENSHSs I will only offer a few remarks. Our original notion and the addition that wo offered — wo have in mind to attempt to protoct tho llttlo ranch ovmcr v/ho noods tho public domain adjacent to his farm lands, a man that is too seldom roprcsontcd in the so kind of mootings, and vihoso needs aro too seldom oxprossod. So I personally would like to sco this accopted as offcrod at tho pro sent tamo, without any arAondmonts. MR. COX OF UTAH: It scorns to mo that wo aro placing so many anonclnonts that it is becoming confusing within tho minds of a lot of delegatos in attendance and also, in my opinion, wo aro still passing tho buck on to tho next follow. V/o arc passing tho buck right down to the advisory boards again and leaving them to stand tho brunt of ill-fooling of tho pooplo within tho district, and I am hoart- ily in favor of putting tooth into this, as Mr-. Carpenter stated this morning, and making it so that wo will havo somothing definite to go by, and I would liko to soo theso rules and regulations read so that there will bo some cloar defini- tions and some cloar understandings by which the advisory boards in tho respec- tive districts might pass on applications. So far as concerns tho "within, and noar-nearor-noarcstn onondnont , I am hoartily in favor that the commonsurato proporty within tho district havo tho proforonco. MR. CARPENTER: Wo aro now dobating whethor district and state linos bo son- • sidorod, or only customary uso. MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW HEXICO: It seems to me that, up to tho present timo, that the most object ionablo featuro of the substitute resolution, wo aro overlook- ing tho fact that, if this substitute resolution offorod should pass, wo have do- . stroyod tho valuo of all commonsurato proporty. Wo of Wow Moxico, of courso, place a groat doal of valuo on property right, but wo donTt go so far as to say that priority should bo considered without it is attachod to commonsurato proporty". Wow, if this substituto resolution passes, then you havo dostroyod. all commonsurato property, and it is absolutoly contra- dictory to tho spirit and word of tho Taylor Grazing Act. MR. 'LEE OF IDAHO: Idaho didn't think it would havo to say anything on this quostion, but wo gavo considerable thought to this and had tho brightest minds .of Idaho, as woll as tho practical stoclxien of that district on this particular question. Wo would liko to road our recommendation again: / Resolved; by tho stockmen of Idaho: that, whoro a. man bo doterminod as a Class A applicant, undor Subdivision A of Section 1, that such right bo rooog- •nized in contiguous or adjacent districts, it having boon spocifically understood that stato boundaries and stato linos would; not jeopardize tho customary uso of the rango. MR. McFARLANE OF UTAH: In adding to that resolution the part that wo bo- liovo that preference rights should bo given to pooplo running livestock and owning ground within tho rango district, and should havo tho first proforonco right whoro ho had the prior use. That is only to protoct the small ranchor. It is not going to interfere with shoep coming from Colorado to Utah or from Utah into Novada, or Idaho into SH«5I ~-~ B-31 Utah. It is just to givo that protoction. I want to say that the first resolu- tion that was offered that formed the Taylor Bill, )cnn\/n then as tho Coltdn Bill, wrs that wo bolioved tho first proforence right should bo givon to tho pooplo living in tho rango district, and that right should ronairi with tho community. Just lil:o tho water with tho land. . . , Vro wantod to got away fron tho Practice of vihat tho forest servico had in- augurated, and this is not goinG to interfere, with any of your rights, with any of your proforenco right, unless you aro one of those nomads or those follows that run all over the country. I think that you poople all fool that we ouGht to protect those snail1 ranchers who have lived in tho ranGo country, and that is why vro added that part to the resolution, , • MR. VrfLLX/jiS OF UTAH: I arise to support the oriGinal notion and render ny opposition to tho substitute for this reason. Hr. i.cFc.rlane has stated to you we have cone hero to try to livo up to and carry out tho intent and the purposes of the Taylor Grazing Act. It tells ne, in these vrords, that, as long as there are plenty raises available, then it is administered to all, but in case of range shcrtare, then it tells ne that those nearest in point of distance and accessi- bility shall be Given preference, and that is what I believe in, and that is what I an going to support. , 2fR. DORRIS OF CALIFORHIA: I would lilce to second the statement of this last speaker. I.IR. TOBIIT.OF NTHTADA: Fron the remarks made a few minutes ago by sone of the members "here, that old buGaboo is raised up again, about the "big guy" gobbling up the little fellow. I am on a board. Ve passed on 515 applications, had pos- sibly fivo or si:: appeals, and took care of all those appeals ourselves to the satisfaction of the person that was appealing. I move, at this tine, that the notion nade by the gentleman fron Colorado, which I understood as a substitute, be made the original notion. 1.31. CARP3HTER: Are you ready for the question? Are you ready to vote on the question that tho substitute be made the oriGinal notion, that district and state lines be disregarded and that prior use only be considered? Do you wish more discussion? MR. COX OF UTAH: It seens to ne that this is simmering down to policies that you ordinarily find in a poker game. The gentleman fron Nevada stated that they passed on 300 applications in their district. I rn.ll raise the ante. In our district, vre passed on nearly 900 applications. In passing on those ap- plications, vro kept within the spirit and intent of the original Taylor Bill _ and following the regulations that Vrore issued for temporary license, and I wish to make this statement, that I believe that ninety percent of the applicants that received their licenses were satisfied with the way we passed on then. MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA:' I an opposed to this substitute notion beconing an original notion. I feel we should support the original notion. If we go baok to this substitute notion, we are throwing away a year's work. We are going rirht back to where we were when this bill was created. We are defeating the purpose of the bill. That is what has killed the range. We are going back to "dog-eat-dog". Wo have already done that until this country is killed out. This Taylor Act was framed to protect us,. ana I .an in favor of the original notion. I call for tho question on the notion. MR. FRATCIS OF UTAH: I am opposed to the substitute notion for this reason, that I think it conflicts with the past policy we have adopted under Policies. Vie put connensurate property above'prior usej now vro cone bad:, and, under the substitute notion, wish to put prior use over that of commensurate property within tho. district. For that reason, I am opposed to the substitute notion. — -I '■sat "fPH B-32 MR. HUTTON OF LONTANA: I simply wish to state that, if you pass this substi- tute motion, you absolutely kill our district. MR. CARPENTER: Are you ready 'for the question? The question will be on the substitute motion to disregard state and district lines and observe customary use subject to the discretion of the Board. Only the delegates, trill vote. Those in favor vail signify by saying "aye" Opposed, the same sign The no's have it. Do you wish a division. We will poll the delegates if 'you wish a divi- sion, and vote — each man one vote. If thore is no request for a division, the substitute motion is filled and we will proceed to consideration of the original motion, which I will reread. Resolved, that dependent properties be separated into those within or near a district and those not so near the district, with -first preference to be given to the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends on the use of public -lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use. MR. TOBIN: I move another amendment. Strike out the period on the last line and add the following: Subject to the discretion of the Advisory Board. ._, MR, CARPKHTBR: The amendment is offered that the addition of the words, "subject to the discretion of the advisory boards" be added. Is there a discus- sion on that amendment? Are you ready for the question? Those in favor of adding "subjeot to the discretion of the" Advisory Board" -will signify by saying "aye"........ Those op- posed the same sign I will read the motion again, then I will read the ad- dition which is proposed as an amendment. The motion is: "Resolved, that dependent properties be soparated into those . within or near a district and those not so near the district, with first prefer- ence to be f/iven to the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends. on% tho ,.use of public lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use." The amendment is: "subject to the discretion of the local Board." VOICE: I'would like to have this undorstood, that only qualified men have a right to vote. MR. CARPENTER: Only qualified delegates have a right to vote. Do you wish, the delegates polled? The Chair will call for a revote. VOICE: I propose that you havo them stand so they can be identified. MR. CARPENTER: That is a good suggestion. Those in favor of the amendment adding the words "subject to the discretion of the local Board will stand*.'.... Those opposed to the amendment trill stand..... VOICE- I would like to ask you if we knew what we were voting on. I want to know whether we were putting teeth in the law or taking it away. I think when we add that "subject to the discretion of the Advisory Board , we are taking tho teeth out of the law. MR. CARPENTER: Did you all understand that when you voted? .SEVERAL VOICES: Call for another vote. MR. TOBIN: So long as tho opinion is to ask for another vote, I wish to ask for another discussion.. " ; B-33 MR. CARPENTER: I will read the original motion and the amendment, then call on Senator Tobin for his remarks. "Resolved that dependent properties bo sepa- rated into those within or near a district and those not so near the district, With first preference to be given to the owner of land and livestock, whose own- ership depends on the use of public lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use." The amendment was to add the words, subject to ) the discretion of the advisory board". , MR. TOBIK: Speaking upon the amendment, I don't believe there is a man within the sound of my voice but what has had his application passed on by the local members of the Advisory Ward. You wore satisfied. You elected those men to pass on your application because you knew they were familiar with your conditions that existed in your country. Therefore, why not let him continue. Go ahead and kill this amendment if you want to, but I am going to toll you the advisory board is going to loathe confidence that they have m you, and you are showing that you have lost the con- fidence you placed in your advisory board* MR NIELSGK OF UTAH: I riso to support the amendment, I think we have al- ready p-ranted you riust what you have asked for. These advisory boards all along the line have considered, as the first Class A applicants, the men who lived within the district. Mr. Carpenter reported that only 2& or 3 percent came back on the appeals, that were dissatisfied. I think we have conceded to the wishes of these men who live within the district, given them what they have asked for.. • V/e are ready and willing to recognize them as Class A applicants coming ahead of the rest of us, Yihat more do you want? MR. mCftiTCRY: A good many of us have been asking for a little bit more power as advisory board members. Every move of this kind increases the powers that we have and the recognition it has given us. 1 can't see any harm - m fact, I think it is a good thing to support the amendment. MR. WYATT OF COLORADO; This morning, it was the consensus of opinion among these delegates that home rule prevail. Some of them have apparently changed _ their ideas since the morning session. Why take the control away from the advi- sory board now if, this morning, they wanted it. I don't tnmk that some of the p-entlemon who voted against the amendment realize what they are voting on. 11 we are going to have home rule, why tie the hands of the advisory board? MR. GARDNER OF UT#I : In Circular 2, did you have it Written there "subject to tho discretion of the advisory board"? Wasn't it understood. Didn't we act on those applications according to Circular 2? If Circular 5 comes out do we need to have that tacked on there? Isn't it subject to the discretion of the advisory board without those additional words? MR. MBDLIHi I am the man that asked you if you knew what you were voting on. The Taylor Act has given us something to fight this with, a law that we can eo by, and, if we had those words on there, "at the discretion of the advisory boards", it is going to leave it up to us to decide that ourselves and, other- wise, if it is mandatory, you can say that "you can't come in if there is no room for vou": if there is room, we aro going to lot them in anyway. Kr. Carpentei said" there were only 2* percent of the people not satisfied. If they are not en- titled to go in there, we are not going to let them in, and we have the authority to do it with. MR. LEE OF IDAHO: I have always been informed that these rules and regula- tions wore going to give us fellows from the west some latitude and considera- tion. There is just one man that can get hurt in any rules and regulations t at we make here, and that is the bona fide stockman who has put his lifetime in male- ing a set-up to run stock. ■ J • B-34 In the state of Idaho, the district already in and both districts in contem- plation, the "boys pass thru in tvro or three districts, they have had this sot-up two or throe years, vrhat we call a 12-months set-up, they trail back thru one and into another district for their summer range. Vie feol, in Idaho, that we know those conditions and xn aro not afraid -to take the responsibility of passing on those fellows and aJ liocat.-Jng them into the class that they belong to. This morniiig, it was the intention a-11 the tome to pass this back to these boards. So far as we arc concerned, in the management of the public domain, if we keep as much power as xre con at home, we are able to solve these problems to the best advantage. On all tho applications, as you said here, these boards passed on them, and 97$ of them were right and fair. These conditions that seem to af.fect these peo- ple in Utah and Arizona, that thoy are talking about jockeying for the advantage of one or the other in those districts, don't apply to our districts up there, but we do feel that we don't want anybody in Arizona or New I'exico or Utah to make an arbitrary rule that is going to tell this advisory board up in Idaho who we shall recognizo and who wo shall not. Wo are anxious that everybody shall be fairly treated but, on the other hand xre don't believe there is a man that uses this range, and was using it before the Taylor Bill was passed, that his investment should be jeopardized by any rule that is made to fit any particular country. We feel very strongly about it and I don't believe there is any man in this delegation here that would want to oast any reflection on himself by acknowledging, before this bunch, that he was not able to pass intelligently on any application that was brought before him. Idaho is in favor of this amendment, for the reason that xre feel we are more capable, have more knowledge, understand conditions, know the applicants person- ally, and we have more ability to pass on those than anybody else within the western states. - MR. CARPENTER: The Chair will restate the question to be sure that everyone understands it, then, with your consent, it will be put to a vote. The question is whether we will add the words "in the discretion of the local boar^. ' to this resolution that was originally introduced: "Resolved' that dependent properties be separated into thoso within or near a district and those not" so near the district, | with first preference to be given to the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends on the use of public lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use," And the amendment adds: "subject to the discretion of the local Board." Those in favor of the amendment to add those four words will signify by say- ing "aye" .Those opposed signify by the same sign I will first take a rising vote on the division. MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: Point of information. Would adoption of this amendment stop any right of appeal above the advisory board? MR. CARPENTER: No. It would have no effect on that. All those in favor of this amendment will rise. VOICE: One question, Mr. Carpenter. Without those words, would that power bo taken array from the advisory board? MR. CARPENTER: No. It would not make the slightest /iiffsrence. (Count is made by IJr. Carpenter of those standing for the rising vote.) MR. CARPENTER: Bo seated. Those opposed to the amendment stand. (Count is made.) Be seated. Tho amendment is lost — vote is 82 to 54* (Applause.) !W*WW|H1 B-35 MR. CARPENTER: Discussion on the original motion is now in order. Are you« ready for the question on the original motion? I vri.ll reread the original motion without the amendment which has now been lost: "Resolved that dependent properties bo separated into those within or near a district and those not so near the district, with first preforence to be given to the owner of land and livestock whoso c^ership, depends on the use of public lands adjaoent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use. Are you ready for the question? Those in favor signify by saying "aye" Opposed same sign.. ...The "ayes" have it. Any further discussion? Any re- quest for division?...... It is so ordered. We now oome up to the question of fees. MR. BRAY: Resolved that fees of H per head per month for cattle and horses and V Per head Per nonth *" °r sheep and goo.ts be charged for 1956 licenses. )1R. CARPENTER: The motion is made that 5^ per head per month for cattle and horses and V Per head Per month for shoeP and goats be charSed for 1^36 licenses. Do I hear a, seoond to the motion? \ VOICE: I second the motion. IE, CARPE1ITER: Discussion is in order. MR. NIELSON: I would like to amend that motion by cutting it in two — 1/2 CAnt for shoep and goats per month, and l\ cents per month for cattle and horses. VOICE: Second the motion, VOICE: Vail a further amendment be in order. I would like to make a motion to. make that H on horses. Otherwise I am in favor of the motion made by Mra Nielson. i ' * ' ' ■- i MR* CARPENTER: Will Mr. Nielson accept that amendment? MR. NIELSON: Yes. MR. CARPENTER: The amendment is now l/2 cont on sheep and goats, 2-^ cents on cattle, and a nickle on ponies. VOICE: Do I understand that this is the assessment for the advisory boards or tho grazing fees. ' , MR. CARPENTER: These are grazing fees that ere to be charged for the issu- ance of licenses. They have nothing to do with assessments. VOICE: When rail these fees take effect? MR. CARPENTER: They ivill take effect as the 1936 licenses are issued. ...As to the payment, I could not say, but in some reasonable manner. MR, COX OF UTAH: I wish to make an amendment to the amendment to the amend- ment, and make that 2^ cents on goats. MR, CARPENTER: That motion is out of order.. Any discussion on the amend- ment to the motion? VOICE: I take it that thore"is an attitude or feeling on the part of the . administration that the stoclonen are willing to underwrite the appropriation of the president, something like §412,000. Doesn't that require an amendment -as re- commendod by Colorado? 1 i\m\{iiM*m^w**m^**mmm ■MR. CARPENTER: The amount recommended by Colorado will raise o.bout half the amount necessary to pay the expense. The amount in the amendment v/ill raise about one fourth of the amount. MR. NIELSON: Utah, when we came in with our recommendation, rec6mmended that fee, but it should not take effect until term permits are issued, and now the Chairman rather brings that into my amendment for this coming year. MR. CAKPE1JTER:- I "beg pardon, Mr. Nielsen. I will restate that amendment. l/2 cent per month for sheep and goats, 2& cents per head per month for cattle ^ and 5 cents per head por month for horses, when term permits are issued. That is an improper amendment to the original motion, which had to do only with licenses, therefore it will have to come up separately, and wo will consider the original motion concerning licenses, which was a niokle on cattle and a penny on sheep. All those in favor of the original motion, signify by saying aye ■ . Opposed same sign ..Do you want a standing vote, more discussion or delegates polled? MR. TOBIIJ: We have not had the opportunity to discuss the original motion. Sd a head a month on cattle, to the Nevada rancher, is exorbitant. You can put a cow down there and it will starve to death. I admit our ranges are more or less depleted. We are just making a living. Vie can't afford to pay a niokle a head on cattle. Wo aro indebted now to the RFC and all the rest of the alphabet. I am opposed to it. I hope. this motion is defeated. I am in favor of the amend- ment to the motion. MR. CARPENTER: The point is well taken that the vote was put prematurely. It was put, however, in response to constant cries for question. I feol that all phases of this should be fully presented and then, when we' vote, it might be best to poll every delegate. For that reason, the Chair will recommend further discus- sion on the question of fees. IIR. LUBKI1T OF CALIFORNIA: I can't see where you fellows have the argument that U a head for sheep and 5^ for cattle is exorbitant. If you have got a thousand head of sheep, you only have to pay this government ten dollars for those sheep and; if you have got the feed, I would like to know where the. exces- sive figure comes in at V a head. 1 can't see it. And the same with cattle. If you fellows have got so much cattle that you can't run them on that range, why not cut down the cattle. There is no money made on running cattle on a range whon you haven't got. the feed. In the Lo^e district, California, we are not running more than the range will run, and we are willing to pay 10/ a head for the oattle, for the feed we get, and 2^ for sheep. I am willing to stand with the statement of the Colorado man, of five to one and I think that is reasonable enough. The first thing you fellows know, this will go back, and those eastern senators will say, "If you are getting nothing, stay off." We will get into the same position that we were at tho time of the forest service. You know the trouble wo got into there. We had to come to Salt Lake about eight years ago to a grazing conference and fight this thing because they set the prices up so that we could not pay and run on the forest reserve — cost you more than running on this public domain. I know that to be pretty well true of a desert. You gather your cattle at the v/aterholes and herd your sheep, whether you are on mountains or public domain and I can't see where that fee is going to hurt anybody. Tho trouble is, it looks to me like you have got too many cattle and sheep on the range and they are starving to death. Put the cattle out that the range will stand, cut dorm your numbers and you will make more money on them. I have lost money in threo or four years, but I figured this feed out and I am willing to pay for it, and I could have paid for it in tho last five years, as M^UkM >!•. ! : B-37 bad as cattle We', ft' a the way you handle your stock. You have got too; mx& on the range. Cut them do\m and you will get somewhere, ji ■ MR. WALTERS OF vftfQIflMGx At the present time, we are exceeding our limit when wja offer to pay anything, booause all this ought to be on a something for something basis, and, at the present time, we are not receiving anything, , and there is no assurance we 'will receive anything other than exercising on the , ranee for the next six months. YJyoming rangos are terribly, depleted, lie ap- plied for license on the assumption that all livestock must necessarily oe in- cluded in licenses which were on the range in 1934. As a result of that pre- mise, we ordered licenses for some 90,000 head of sheep and a great many head of cattle. We know, before any feasible solution can be arrived at, that a great many of those stock have to be taken off the range. If there is any fee to be charged, the Vfyomin- delegation feels it should be a nominal fee, enough to take care of the administration until wo get on a basis where we know where ire are going. MR. TAYLOR OF 1IEW HKCCCOi I can't got together the speech we heard here this morning about the fat cattle of Yarning, and the plea for free range today. (Laurhter and applause.) I ranched down in Texas and 1 paid 50<* a head a month pasturage on cattle and 10/ a head on sheep and was glad to get it. Vie have heard here, ever since we have been here, about the burden of our taxes and ohe burden of our grazing fees and so on. It is true we have plenty of taxes. to pay and plenty burdens to carry, but the only people I know of that do not pay any taxes are on reservations and I. don't want to be en a roS0rva*^\or,^;m^. °* the Government. I am ready and willing to pay what is suggested by the gentleman from Colorado* MR. ratmiiSETi I am in favor of the motion as made, but I still believe that it should be on the condition of permits being issued as rapidly as possible. I feel that the Majority of D oards in Colorado are ready to commence right now ^on issuinr pemits. I think the fee is not excessive. In fact, as well stated by yoCit does not cover the entire cost, but I feel also that a good part of this cost of administration should be on Uncle Sam's shoulders, if you please, because you and your able assistants are going into the work of conservation. You are saving the forest. You are doing a lot of biological work — MR. CARPENTER: Not me — not mo. MR. mimfiCIi And, by the way — you may laugh at this — you should do a lot of rovegetation, and I believe you would be doing mighty fine v/or/cuhon you kill some of these rodents. I think that is work that belongs to the Federal Government and these stockmen should not be called upon to pay it. It is improv- ing the range, it is true, and the time will come when we can afford to pay uoro for theso grazing privileges. Look at the little colony they sent up to Alaska. MR. CARP3NT3R: We will have to stick to tho question. MR. MIINiTSRY: We would like to have a little government money spent in im- proving these ranges and I think it is only fair it should be dene. I still re- turn to the fact that I believe that the issuing of the term permits should be commenced at once, where boards arc ready to issue them. MR. CARP3ITTSR: I might state, in explanation, that the Federal Government spent in excess of two million dollars in grazing camps this year, none of which is considered in this budget at all. • IK. HARDIN OF MONTANA: In regard to the question before the house now the proposal to levy 5^ a head per month on cattle and Ijrf a head per month en ^eep: In Montana, wo have a little different situation from what you *en>ave; »P there we have not only got our Taylor Grazing districts, but have also organi zed grazing districts under the state law, within that grazing ^strict, he have .et up in the state of Montana a grazing commission, and the funds to support the grazing j / ' • lit nlMHBI • - .■■-.-,- iipf'^rf-'^Wfi B -30 6omni8sion rt come from a,a s on stoo^ ^have ^^Jfg they arc depleted. If the £^^??^ aSwe could^fford to pay on sheep. Xn order to militate ^^^^^i^^SLT^ . JSk-SM StW^S^aVS^. X 2 Heartily in favor - - ».:«« OP UTAH: Conditions in UtayndHev,da are entirely different^ . from what they are in California ^™«^££%&, if we are going to no shorts t*u» we go out on *he.deser^.^ ^^enentarv feed. If the Taylor return v,ith our sheep, without fJ^^^tZt^oXre so we would not bo Grazing Art could increase the feed and o bv%c £h P ^ be lled subject to snowstorms and be buried onco or t ace £ babl vfe could af- t0 go to a railroad track and ship in to a £,« tnen p j^ ^ ^ pres_ ford to pay V or g. and we might be able to raise ^ ^ oxoessive) and ent conditions as thoy prevail in jBV^\*"Vp y^h deletion, that we pay I am to favor of the recordation »^^ *h 9"tf on cattle, and we only pay 1/2 oent per head for sheep por month, and <.* cents that when the tern permits are issued. m. „ OP COLORADO . If this thing is not ,orth ^ cost ^administer- ing, is it worth admim storing Let s drop ru u a. to administer it. m. iftBurm op Colorado: % wl«^^»!^£r^$ "art musing. I sit here and hear all ^.^Xl/om on^ of these men, you realize to tales one of those licenses or permits a uray from one , the value of it. It becomes very ^SSkIo^SS I fear that is -vhere we gone to destruction trying to get somet hag »* J10™1 S« are going to wind up if we don't pay for what we get. SBBM PRO!. OREGON Wo as a selectee ipjft £•£{£** "^Wnrt of using this public domain, * ^/™ "Lert £ J 0\t "and expect it to be pro- CEVKS ^roriylKo ,V. ?T5fV. oost of administration. MR. BALLARD OP OREGON, I Just want a little -- i^ation. ^cn thiols Plathd riimrbeych:rgSed t°n ^e^S^^ we use il the entire SK; n£ or VtaHK. or whatever the t*. ^b be, MR. CARPEHTER: The question is rai -d if the P^^^that'te^T of months - for instance eight months - and then not ^ ^ ^^ . to whether the charge rould extend ,or ^* J? °£ iojU ^n tor the non-use of a pet- not, that the Board £«".*•*»££• .f^iCrS in these checkerboard axeas mit! There is one other item that is most ^rtan ^ ^ ^ ^ where the range is capable of r""»8; ■•*» ld be made 40 percent of public lands in that ^'^^^^i^vf no right to charge for other lands &^^^?£Z^»»* *~ question, tt. BALLARD, Hardly. I ^IlS1^^1^^™ ~'* r^^ouH a ff JMTi'SSi^ we would be stuck for . or T. or get off for four. „. ««, » ,™u« d.P«d. o£ .r... « »; o— - ^sysr ■ B -39 an administrative standpoint. You are not; acting on this as members of the De- • Srtment or lust as I am, and just as much as I am, and you are going to have to orfent your point of view of the administration of it around to the point of viev, of the administrators. . , y If you want to look at the cost of this matter, you want to take the ;ost of the Division of Grazing, including the pay of the district advisory •• ,,*;j,000. That does not include the cost of the clerical worlc performed by the general land office; that does not provide any pay for the Division of inycsoigations in their technical work in preparing maps, in checking over all of the applications running' down statements on commensurate properties, and completely mapping all the private and public lands. The Division of Investigations men are not paid oy the Division of Grazing. The man hours v/orlced in serializing, abstracting, and "su- ing permits in the General Land Office, exceeded, in the period for which they were performed, the man hours of the Division of Grazing. That is no _ part of the calculations. Just as the improvement of the range in the CCC camps is no part- — that is an emergency matter. , .1 « * But you should have before you the whole picture, as Congress is go'ing to look at it. We are not trying to take our share of the investment, because that is one of the benefits of government that comes to all of us. But the Particu- lar earts that pertain to grazing rail be segregated and set apart. The minority parties subject you to cross-examination when you say you are paying your v/ay. Whatever you vote, I expect to make that my recommendation, but I want you to see, fairly and frankly, what you are going into* Ycu are all old enough to have experience in how much good something you get for nothing amounted to. Get that all into your points of vie-,;, gentlemen, and gather all your arguments, I would like to hear from everybody and, when we act, remember the Government put it up to the men who are not only assistants in the administration of the law, but who pay the prices. I have been told it was perfectly foolish to put it up to you men. I answered that saying that you people wore able to divest yourselves of the point of view as payers of the price and look at it from every angle and see what was best for the application of the Taylor Act over a period of years. l'Tavbo 2* cents would be best. 1-aybe it would be best to say to Congress: "It is true we said we would lay a million dollars on the table, but we have de- cided to only pay a half million." They would say I would never try that again; that just simply is a breakdown to the whole system. I want to hear every argument come out on every side, and I. have got lOOfo faith in this bunch to do it right if they take time enough. Wo are going to take all the time required, all night if necessary, and I am going to stay with you. HR. DORRIS: I think that the objection to the fees is that it is not going to the Government, but it is going back to taxes that we are already paying. It is a double taxation on the live stockman. Three fourths of the fees wo pay in here goes back to the states and our county governments, which we are already supporting, and it is making a d cub It taxation on one class. That is where the objection comes. It is that double taxation that we are objecting to, MR. CARF311TER: Let me speak a minute on that and try to give you the point of view that Congress had. You are getting the uso of so much pasture. You are getting the chance to make it better. It is worth about so much in comparison with other pastures of people in the middle west and south, and other parts of the country. You have 15% of the cattle and 4(# of all the sheep in the U. S. and you ship to the same markets that the gentlemen who pay a much higher rental do. From the standpoint of meeting the rest of the trade in the U. S., some fair grazing feo should be sot, regardless of the cost of administration, from that standpoint. Nov/, if a man would hear considered some fair fee for an intake, which 5/ would not make, which 10pT would make and a little over — if that is so, tne — — ^— — / B-40 question comes up v/hy give half of it back to the counties. Gentlemen whenever you learn that half of it comes back to your counties, if a committee of y.ou users are in there, before the county commissioner, and say, rfe have puo so much money into your coffers this month, and we want the levy cut aown in, the degree that that amount equals" —if you don't do that, then you are not. per- forming your proper duty as a watch-dog of the treasury. There is no reason to let the money go into the county treasury. Make them take it off of your tax 'on real estate. You know, if you ask for it, you jwilV eet it. You vrill not get your taxes cut down if you don«t get on the job,., i feel that this addition to the local revenue, altho in Oregon and Nevada it, goros directly back to the districts, is fair from the national point of view, _ ,Tney are not trying to keep any of this money in their coffers; .they are turnxng, i, back to the place from which it came and, if it supplants taxes on real estate, it should really supplant them. On the other hand, if you have some other venture and want it to go there, you can do so. Othorwiso, you can request your county commissioner to let it go where you want it. Taxes will go higher and higher unless somebody objects^ This is one method of having the stockmen object. That is, the only explanation I can give on that feature of it. The 25^, I was assured, would be used for the improvement of the district, MR. LUBKIN: The statements made by Mr, Carpenter are true. I am one of the commissioners in California. Ve have a budget system set up and, the more money we can pull dovm from the forest service and from other sources, the less thetax rate is. I am not here to boast about that, but we are only second or third in the state in my county, on the tax rate, and we watch every angle of ; . the producer, whether cattlemen, sheepmen or minors, or whatever it is, and when- ever we can get the money in from outside sources, we do it ~- for instance, the zasoline tec:. We used to havo a tax on roads; that has been cut down, but the taxes on roads cut dovm the real estate property tax. Our budget is such that wo can only spend - if we spend a thousand dollars, say, as an illustration, on roads for the fiscal year, we can only raise that budget 5/; it don't ma.ee any difference; if more of this money came in from an outside source, we couid not spend more than a thousand dollars plus the SfL So I can not exactly *&ree with Mr, Dorris on it; that is, double taxation, lie arc getting something worthwhile and I feel we should pay for it. If it is not worthwhile, we should quit.. MR. COTIOVER OF UTAH: I will tell you why our Utah boys aro opposed to this fee: because we feel that the Department of the Interior has nothing to soil us, only operation. In our district, we levied this same kind of tax that we > opposed for a seasonal operation, and we are going to operate our district for 1/2 cent on shoep and 2-| cents on cattle and horses. We are going to operate for six _ months for that amount. If we would make that amount for a month, that will in- crease that fee six times, and we feel that all we should pay at this time is the operation fee. Maybe a lot of you fellows graze in a fatter land than we graze in. Our deserts are depleted, not from overgrazing but from drouth. We have been burnt to death for yoars, and, if we can once got a normal amount of moisture, we are willing and glad to pay for everything we can get off of public domain. I think that this fee should be as v/e have stated, that tho Department of the Interior should carry their part of the expense, and let the people using tho domain cover the operation cost, and I believe that this fee will cover the oper- ation cost. Our sheepmen in our districts lose on a herd. A winter herd of sheep runs around 2500 to 3000 sheep. Our men lose on a herd an averago of 400 head of sheep on that herd in one season. The cattle lose the same propor- tion. We feel we are not in a position to go ahead and pay uhis iee now because we have this adverse condition. We would like to have the fee held nominal on a sliding scale. Why not start easy and give us this nominal foe, let it grow as tho country grows. Letts pay for what tho country produces. MR. OLIVER LEE OF HEW MEXICO: I, too, join you in my sincere belief in the integrity and fairness of the livestock raisers of the west and public domain >.';oa ' B-41 states. I don't know how you feel, but I feel we have been just' slipping a lit- tle bit. I felt that all of the livestock raisers were men of character that could determine any question that comes before them fairly and justly, regardless of their personal interest. We have been encouraged by the acts of our advisory boards up to this prosent time, but I feel that they are taking an unfair posi- tion here today. \ .. ' ■ ..'■•.»."! I am not fully advised as to the cost of leasing the school lands in the different states. I am not fully advised as to the prevailing amount of lease charges on privately owned land. 1 am not fully advised as to the forest fees charge, but I feel I could say with confidence that the fee set-up in the present resolution will bo less, as far as a grazing charge is concerned, than is> charged on any of the other lands within their respective states, and I think that they should be fair and just and not attempt to get this land for any great amount less than they pay for other lands, I MR. CECIL OF OREGOK: I fail to get the viewpoint of the gentleman who spoke about double taxation. The reason I mention that at this time, the subject has come up repeatedly since we have been here. As I understand the theory of this Act, we are all hopeful that vre are going to improve the rango. Ultimately, it is going to be worth the fee. The fee collected at this time will simply be an investment toward bringing about this desired result. As to what bocomes of that money, it is beside the question; it seems to me that is really confusing rather than clarifying the issue. MR. CARPENTER: I might state this: We are trying to get all the facts in front of the delegates. Senator Leo raised the point of fees on school lands. They will run from 1-|^ an acre in Arizona, to as high as 80 an acree MR. COX OF UTAH: Afber listening to this discussion with some amusement and some recollection of livestock meetings that I have attended here and other places before the Taylor Act was passed and we, as a group of live stockmen, the people who promoted the Taylor Act and the people who are now administering it, signed a note in blank. I know resolutions were passed and I have heard livo-^ stock men say we were willing to pay a reasonable fee for the use of this public domain, and we didn't want it for nothing. I have heard our congressmen who worked for it report that the opposition from the East to this bill, part of it • was because the eastern states had no state lands and, when they produced live- stock, they entered into competition with livestock produced on free grazing land. We had all those arguments to meet and vre passed some, resolutions, or ex- pressed ourselves privately, that vre were willing to stand for reasonable fees for the use of this public land and for reasonable fees for the administration of it. We gave that impression out. We have given it out here. Our administrator here, Mr. Carpenter, has relied upon the feeling and the information that he got from attending those meetings and I believe he expects us to honor the check . and the note that vre signed in blank, now, and vote for such a reasonable fee for ' the us© of this public land and for a reasonable fee for the operation of it, and personally it is my belief that the fee of IjL for sheep and 50 'for cattle is reasonable and we should stand behind the Department and our Secretary here an Water develop- ment -- we have two wells now operating, with' 20 new locations for wells Contem- plated. Drift fonc os — many miles now under contemplation. The boys are making pests and starting to dig holes. • Predatory animals -- six projects under way. In the movement of livestock to summer ranges, where the men used to start out with cattle overnight, ■ we are now having the set-up where we are having whole ' colonies benefit -- the welfare of those in that neighborhood. Stock driveways are being located and a portion of those driveways are being policed. Insect control is contemplatod — fire control, telephone lines, erosion control, and poisonous plant control. I thank you. ' , I ■BSaS**#**£»Sfi8teS3E A:s:^r^^^?=g^g.^:-^g^^ia'=^-^ 3— :.;(:,■•■. T-^-;— ^r- I, y .-::■:■'-■ i.-:lr^^aL:, WWw^pPIp 1 :i; I B-4! MR. ZAPP OF IDAHO i We have got two CCC camps in Idaho, doing about ;the same work as in California, and we appreciate very much what they are doing. |j : , * MR. MONTGOMERY OP MONTANA: Range improvements and suggestions for its- solu- tion and preservation. Wo in Montana feel that it requires a range control pro- gram -which necessitates several very important features first of which is the de- velopment and control of stock water supplies 0 Those are many and varied in nature due to local conditions and supplies that are available to development and to control, : i , : I1 ' 1. Dams and reservoirs of varying sizes and for varying purposes. The storage of water for use in its stored location presents many problems for many sizes and types of reservoirs and dams — you must readily see that in any En- deavor to seoure well distributed water supplies local conditions and opportuni- ties will of necessity decide the location and type or size.. We believe also the storage of larger quantities of water at heads of dry 'streams that can be released at periods to replenish the water holes in the stream bed below'td be a highly desirable storage. The farther use of diversion dams or dikes to distri- bute run-off water over a large surface area to better store the water in the soil to also offer a desirable solution to water conservation.- 2. Springs. The development and protection of springs thru the uso of fenced earth tanks or reservoirs which can be led into service water tanks is likewise much to be desired- ■ 1 ; ' • I •' • ;~. :< . ■ < ; | ! n ■■ ■■:■ ;'" ; ' 1 : - '■■ '■■-- - : .-, i ■ 3. The use of wells in these areas where surface storage is not available or not practical is still another desirable supply cf water which if properly de- veloped thru installation of small gas engine pump units and /or windmills along with earth tanks for storage which, are then equipped with 'service tanks fillled thru valved or siphon pipes. The construction of reservoirs of all kinds' offer a wonderful opportunity for soil erosion control. The construction of drift fences, boundary fences and as time brings the al- lotments of the range the construction of fences about allotments will aid con- siderably in controling. the past difficulties of q,vergrazing0 The construction of roads and trails thruout the grazing area where needed will aid in supervision and fire prevention.;- The construction of corrals, dipping vats, camp cua.rters for herders must of necessity proceed with caution and then only when and whore actually needed and must be under strict supervision of some organization such as our Montana State Grazing Districts provide. The problem of driveways likewise are desirable if they be arranged and pro- vided with ample and proper regulations and supervision. The elimination of fencod county roads thru large grazing areas is very desirable and wherever pos- sible should be eliminated by the construction of auto pass crossings and gates. The removal of old deserted fence material, old farm buildings, the obliteration of the old signs of farm buildings thru filling of abandoned cellars, wells, cisterns, and the like, is much to be desired. Due provision should be made for trail pastures especially for stock en route to market. A concentrated drive on rodent and magpie control must not be overlooked as well as the continued effort to keep down to a minimum of all predatory- animals. • i All the above are activities that can be carried a long way toward, comple- tion thru the activities of not only CCC camps but the- camps, and projects now go- ing ahead under the Y/PA thru the resettlement division. The reseeding of aban- doned farm lands, the eradication of poisonous plant life, are other improvements to the range situation. i ,• In conclusion and summary, every effort should be made to correlate the ac- tivities of the projects now going f orward under the direct supervision of the resettlement division with the -establishment of CCC camps which are making possi- ble a new era for the people of the state and country. I 1 ! 7 I I n I \ II •p'i>.,;.; ; I I 1 I I y ■ ■ I, • •:•-. -r:- - ""■',. •■ ■' . ;' "~ " " " • I ; ... r •■'•1*3 • &&§#:; .-';. ■** Kb •vswb*. tt-t- I B-46 i MR. A. D. BRCOIFIE1D OF HEW iiEXICO.: Whon the advisory boards of tho South- western How Mexico Grazing District No. 3, got organized and settled dorm to work wo wore told that tho Secretary of the Interior had tho erosion control work program and conservation of tho rccgo as provided in tho Taylor Act, placed under tho supervision of tho -Division of Gracing, and that wo wore chargod.with tho further duty of helping make it servo tho Public Land?. We wore not too oarer for more duties, but if this was tho Secretary's wishes, well ana good. We had always wanted some control' over tho Public Domain.- Now we wore Siting that and if cooperation between tho Grazing Service and the. ranch men wqurld bo an aid toward protecting and conserving. tho lands we resolved to do all .possible to help. . '- ( ' ] On the first of August, last year, we received and got under way tl>ree Divi- sion of Grazing CCC camps, all located in our grazing district,, T acre is little need to outline just what the purposes of these camps are .-- with. ;his,? most oi you are familiar. It will, however, be interosting to show to wual; extent grazing district Boards, and the ranch men, can cooperate to .facilitate, tljio range improvement and conservation work of the camps e -.. .. , j j ' i In cur district, we have been active in helping to develop those projects Which we believed would benefit and bo of some value to the stockmen. Our Board receives and makes recommendations, on all ranch proposals submitted by individual ranchers. There are several reasons why it is believed this is a good practice/ because of the fact that all proposals come before the Board, all selfish, inte- rests are minimized. Projects are approved only v/here there is a benefit, at least in varying degrees, to the public range. Among tho moro important projects and those which will be of a more ;immed,,i- ate benefit to both the range and tho rancher and the livestock industry might bo listed: 1. Water development, - just now this is necessarily being delayed be- causo of the fact that a development of water prior to the allocation of range would operate to complicate its adjudication. This is lending strength to a posi- tion, well fortified, we believe, for an early temporary allotment privilege. 2. Tho construction of fonces on ranch boundaries. following this, we might list water spreading in areas where the terrain adapts itself to the work, and to be followed by revegetation which becomes practicable because of the col- lection of a greater amount of water* 3. There is probably no project which has wider sanction and greater gen- eral approval than the destruction of rodents and poisonous plants. This is be- ing pushed vigorously and ranchers in our area are cooperating and furnishing available ranch buildings v/hen necessary to house the boys who are carrying on • this work. Other work now being done is community ranch roads, connecting with the main highways, stock" trails leading thru rough mountainous hills, and experimen- tal plots for revegetation. And there is .yet other work we hope to getdono, as rock and concrete reservoirs in canyons where there is no water, community scales, holding traps at shipping pens, and perhaps along the driveway. In these three ^ latter projects, we are firm in a position that tho ranch-men furnish the material, i We believe, with all the good being done, that some constructive criticism 6an well be offered. We suggest that some improvement can be made in the work by more rigid supervision of the personnel of the camps, in order that the ineffi- cient ones may be weeded out. Further, that the Superintendents, the technicians and foremen be in part responsible for their work to the advisory boards. If • this could be done we are of tho opinion moro interest and efficiency will be the result among the officers, and the work done be still more permanent and secure. We are extremely proud of the work dono in our district by tho ECW and glad that it is under the control of the Division of Grazing. There his been exem- plary work done and it stands as a monument' to the Service. It appears very per- manent and no doubt will .control to a degree erosion and redound to the benefit of the range „ -:^7ff-.^ ■'■'■ ■■■tf'-f I:' 'y . r $PgJ5g*f5$&? ' • 1 1 . 1 • •»■•! : 1 i • ; ■ . : (?• -. f - 1 : /r: 1 B-47 - k - MR. MARVEL OF NEVADA, In our State we have two or throe CCC ««», Wl • this connection I would like to compliment Mr. Joe Leech h ° P,' ' well as Major Hunt, for their efficient work? ? ^ °°-work^> as Mi. A. S. CHENEY OF EASTERN UTAH: Vihen our board in Utah Ho 8 lJnr^H it™ THf Preoo^»G.. speakers on this subject have almost taken my 'power. 4 will drilling sites, have outlined 419 road, and "rails asw^r" V^'i '" TU peison plant extermination, trails, drift fences^ etc! ' " ^^ °°1>trp1' , This Program calls for an estimated outlay of 090-raan-doys or about TV ''' n- . 1S; f '^ °F "f™ UMI: * a" very .v.uch ill favor of this work. In We wf * ' WS. tV'° 0ar'pS " °ne at Jerioho and the o«ier at Clover. We have some very active superintendents in the Jericho Camp. The superinten- dents are very enthusiastic in the work. supermcen- ourdS;r^tSEDistr?!tTGi ?! f™'™*' in reP°rt^ « «- improvement of our.. aisv.net, District 1, I wish to state that a rreat many thin-s hivo h-nn superSn ofVffcai0!SVflth **■ *' G" ^ ** has th9 ^emont and h^H-1"6 haJ9.19f,b°ys there. But inspite of the fact that they were deal inP?he wav or M °^?™nt "* tools' th*' ^™ accomplished a good deal in -the way of buildup reservoirs or water development arid 'that has been with shovels, picks and wheelbarrows. They have been mCis, d -ha b\fc« i , asps s^isss it^sss"; jas ~ - «r^ they lere^elted3 Ihe^aW °°^" ^ *"" p"P-«*™ localities where in Le^ylr^aUs^o'th °1 cat ion'of r^T !C ST *£?' ^^ pests alone the driveways where they ^XelnT^^^ZX^ and06in'the «™ *° "^ &1S° ^ * °«* ^S been ostabfi hod at"orland ^^isy^^^ff^^!^^^^ : ■'■:,. : i I ; . ■ B-48 MR, CARP3NTER: I have a proposal that I believe should be submitted to this assembly. It answers most of the kick that we hear on the range: That tlje Ari- zona strip be fenoed out, that Utah keep Wyoming out, and Colorado keep Wyoming out, and all states fence up completely and keep their stuff at home, -:" ' : • . I ■' ■' Gentlemen, we have divided the ten western states into three regions, and we have with us this afternoon, the three regional supervisors". "First region, New I-Iexico and Arizona; seoond region, California and Oregon, and the last .region includes Utah, Wyoming and Colorado, I wish we had the time to go into detail with these regional- supervisors here on that work „ As we do not, I will; ask each of them to stand up and give us a word as to what they think the value of their cooperation with the stockmen and their work with the committees,' I will first oall on the region from Now Mexico and Arizona -- Mr, Caron. Just a word of greeting is all I am going to call on you for, on account of the time. ! .- !■' . 1 : • -: . V • ■ .: : ■ 'i . ■ I • i ■ MR* CARON: We have eight camps located in New Mexico and six camps in Ari- zona, which were occupied at various dates between July and August of 193G, To ' other agencies operating CCC camps £ we probably seemed slow in getting started. However, during the last four or five months, we expended 150,000 man days , of labor on the public domain, with the following accomplishments: Constructed 250 miles of truck trails „ ilaintained some 500 miles of roads. Treated 80,000 acres for erosion control and flood irrigation. Built 75 miles of stock trails,, Eradicated poisonous plants on isolated areas, totaling 5,000 acres. Gathered 3^000 pounds of various seed, whicl| is being planted on flood irrigation projects. Constructed over! 1C0 miles of telephone line. Treated over .450,000 acres for . rodent oontrol. Built 650 -miles of fencov .Also various other construction and maintenance projects, such as spring development, cattle guards, stock tanks, wells, 'and so forth. Have established range survey parties to check commensurate property, \ these helping to speed the allotments. Constructed a permanent type side camp in Albu- querque for enrollee draftsmen who work in our drafting department, making vari- ous kinds of maps needed by the Division of Grazing. Have developed a mobile type unit for side camps. This consists of a trailer type kitchen unit and also a trailer for bathing facilities. With this type side camp, accommodating about 35 men, we expect to be able to move about more freely over the public domain and will be operated more efficiently due to the fact that we have the men lo- cated near the work projects, thus eliminating the travel time to' and from, work. We have' submitted to Washington -a five-year program based on. an average of 25 camps for New Mexico, and 21 camps for Arizona, This involves an expenditure, of some 10 million dollars and covers some 3400 townships in New Mexico and Ari- zona, Some of the. contemplated projects, are as follows: 35,000 miles of fencing. Flood irrigation. on one million acres. Rodent control on approximately 10 million acres, /■ Assuming that all range lands will be. allocated during this time, we set up a very extensive water development program, which includ.es wells, stock tanks, and spring development. Our estimate shows need for some 1500 wells and about 4000 sjbock tanks. We also have various other projects such as roads, telephone lines, poisonous plant eradication, experimental plots, stock trails, etc Cooperation with the Advisory Boards: Vork projects must have the approval of .the Chairman of the Advisory Board, This £s necessary in order to make sure that the improvements put oh the range are what the stock man needs and wants, /, We want the members of the various advisory boards and the stockmen to sug- gest projects that we need in their localities, and help us to put this program over. - B-49 ' MAJOR C. IT. HUNT, RENO: Mr. Carpenter has rather limited the opportunity to teU you all of the very many fine things that we have done and would like .to do,, and has United the the discussion by ourselves to a point of a matter of intro- duction ana a thanking of the committees who have formulated these work programs. I would like to take this opportunity to tell you however, how the wirk programs are formulated and how they are carried out. ^istrxct 2 -- I 4pcak for District 2 only, or rather Region 2, which embraces the states fG^-0,-™' OrLon and Nevada -- the superintendents of the camps - and there are i? o. chem r6f,°^r^f?Irent states - go to the committee men and ask for their rocomme.id- aUcnrL tl .hftypo ofVrAo he carried out, the location of that work, and when it shall be carried out. Thev then take these recommendations and formulate them into a workable programed resubmit them to the committees, and, after having ha th»ir «toy endorsed in writing on the back of the work program, the same is s fitted to gram is then started, • I will take this opportunity to thank the members of the committees of the three states for the cooperation that they gave ^e recent call f °^elp - California alone6-' the Division of Grazing lest none, and we hope can even ex- pand after April. ' As to what is coming, what we want to do I am reminded of the rtorfr about negro: sait '.'Yes suh, and whan I gets my breath, I am going some mere. A survey with which you are all familiar has been carried on in the matter of coLenT/ability and look water in Region Jo. 2. B rough ^to < «.. there are completed 702 coranensur ability surveys, and 654 stock water survejs. MR CARPEFTER- I wish to call attention to the fact that we never could have gottef tTthi allotment of range nearly as soon, had we not had available thl facilities and the work of these camps and these regional supervisor*. m McivAT SALT LAID CITY: I just want to say "how-do-you-do" to you folks in m/regi^'l went to compliment ^ ^^J^*^^ ™ to get the five-year program over. Ve are goi t - * this v,ork of range 2SS— TtSS ^asla^ou want, and no faster. 1 want to thank you all for your cooperation in this matter* MR rAttFFtfTER. How I have a report from the first desert range experiment stati^nTe "Sad *s£tLJ and X v,ant a brief .description. It is contemplated that the next national meeting trill be at Burns, Ore, so you can see ,hat a range experiment station for stockmen is like. Hi:iill11MiTfci ■*? LH Jl^.l!'l!l^|pp B-50 MR. CECIL, OREGOH: There is a first time for everything. I have stood he- hind many kicking mules. This is my first experience hehind one of these things. - (Referring to the microphone.) Over in Harney County, as Mr. Carpenter has said, we have a very unique situ- ation! We have the firs/range experiment station in the west. -Th is. *»£«P°- rarily established, some time last year. A CCC camp was sot up and 'thru ^the facilities of this camp, all of the work is being done, such a f^ the en- closure, putting in fences, erecting permanent corrals, galling scales, in fact, everything necessary toward a complete livestock operation. The idea of this whole sot-up is to shovr and determine just what can be dono to control grazing. »,„„ o:f us Y,h0 iiVQ over in Harnoy County aro vory proud of this unique Those ol us wno live over j restoration will be hastoned situation and feel hopoful that, as a rosuiv, r„...0o by many years. Wion veu gentlemen como over to Burns, wo hope we will have the pleasure pf shovriS Joujult vtot has boon contemplated. Wo aro proud of it, and are satis- fiod that you will bo. , MR. CARPENTER: Gontlomon, at this tteo, I want to call on our good friend, Secretary Walters, and sco if ho won't say a word or two to us. MR WALTERS: My statements will be vory short. I wish to state that it has HtZ l SS Tt oSstoo,. frlona., «» 4. «* «*««.!,, to .p.»o» .f tho stockmon of tho West that somo of us ao. Von.havo ^o,n. ^^S^Sr^W ^^^ou^lves^a1^? such £ to mo, spoils the future welfare of the Taylor Grazing Act* ing Act aro not in oarnost and do not dosiro ib. bo again profitable and you might conduct iu ,-.- -~o pleasure tburs you have in tho past, ., „ ^-r ,.,«vv-..- - ■h«iv at this time in tho day, ity to servo you. Sco of thoso thin£s, I havo had tho opportunity to ^o you in private. I havo not boon able to shako hands vath each of you ^™™^^ ,nd the like to state to you, as a v;holo the pleasure I have had in tho 8 manner in which you have conducted yourselves, and r.n. coniidcioo 3 the future of our program. I thank you. ' -m r B-51 MR. MoFARLAlfl?) OF UTAH: I just wanted to offer a short resolution. I bo- liovo I can make you hoar, booausc the "mike" and I arc not hording togothcr very well. . '' ' ; To tho Honorable Harold L. Ickos, Secretary of the Interior, Washington, DC: Inasmuch as tho Taylor Grazing Act has to do with land's situated in the Western part of tho United States and used by citizens of the Western States and only citizens of the Western Statos arc thoroly familiar with the conditions surround- ing tho nocossity for the Taylor Grazing Act and essential to its proper admin- istration, and, Whorcas, this convention of delegates representing tho Yfostorn Statos which arc interested in tho administration of the Taylor Grazing Act, has boon di- rected and conducted by tho Honorable Ta A. Walters, First Assistant Socrotary of the Interior and Fir. P. R. Carpenter, Director of Grazing, and, Whereas, tho delegates assembled at this convention from their contacts with the above named gontlcmon representing the Department of Interior believe that they have a thoro understanding of the conditions requiring tho passago of the Taylor Act noccssary and for its proper administration, Nov/-, therefore, bo it resolved that tho delegates present at this convention hold at Salt Lake City, Utah, on the thirteenth and fourteenth days of January, 1956, do sincerely thank the Secretary of the Interior for selecting such able representatives of the Department of Interior and men who arc so thoroly acquainted with all tho conditions and requirements for the proper administration of said Act and with tact and ability to moot and discuss all phases of its ad- ministration with tho delegates cither singly or assembled. Gentlemen, I novo tho adoption of this resolution. VOICE: I second the notion,, MR. McFARLME: Then I will put the motion. ' All who favor the motion .will make it manifest by a standing voto. Gentlemen, it passed. (Applause.) MR. WALTERS: It was r.ioro than kind of you, and wo appreciate it« MR. CARPENTER: If there is no furbhor businoss, I will say that I have thought about this meeting for seventeen months. It is quite a bit better than I over thought it would bo. I thank you, and tho mooting is adjourned. (Adjournment at 5:45 PM, January 14, 193S.) "7^ WF . ■ ■ . f'l ■ 1 District Advisors'^ Nf£:R£NC£ DJVJSJOjN Of GRAI1.M.S f. K. CART£M'r£,K, D UfCTOX SALT LA)(£. CITY, UTAH JANUARY 13 & 14* 1-93.^ JFfPi INDEX I FIRST DAY - Morning; Session: Address of Welcome by Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah'. . . . A- 1 , Address "by First Ass't Secretary of Interior Tf A, Walters A- 2 (including messages fron the President cf the United States and the Secretary of the Interior*) Announcement of Order of Business by Director F, R. Carpenter. A- 7 Discussion - Grazing Fees . A- 9 FIRST DAY - Afternoon Sossion Address by Assistant Secretary Oscar Chapman. ..,,„ . A-19 Greeting from Senator Elbert D. Thomas of Utah (Read by Mr. Carpenter),. A-20 Message from Congressman Edv/tird T. Taylor (Read by Mr. Carpenter.) A-20 DISCUSSION: Local assessments. A-2D Motion - "Who shall bo allovrcd to -vote.. . . . - A-22 Policies: 1. Chango in order of preferential classes for licenses0 • . . • A-23 Motion. , ■ - A-26 2« Division of dependont property into classos A-28 Motion. ., • • A-32 3. Should cuts rdthin a class be made on numbers or by restriction of saason of use........ A.-36 4* Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated in 1936 licenses A-3,7 5. Should commonsurato property be divided into classes and definitely defined. A-42 SECOND DAY ~ Morning Session Talk by Mr. Julian Territt, Assistant Director of Grazing B- 1 Recommendations of State Committees, follov;ing caucus: Arizona, •«••». ...... '••••••••»• • ...... B- 2. California - B~ 3 Colorado . . . , - B- 4 Idaho:. . B" 5 Oregon., ......... t • ............. o » o . ....... ....... B- 7 Montana. ............... ••• ....a... D~ ' ' New MexioOo • *......♦.. B- S Novada. .,. , * B~ 9 Utah... - B-10 Wyoming. •»••••».. % a..... B-ll Talk by Director F. R„ Carpenter B-13 Lobbying * « , • B~13 Special rules of the rango recommended by district boards , B-14 Term Permits...... «. • B-14 Licenses as grazing privileges e. ... » ...... * ..*,......«••..♦»...»• • B-15 Placing responsibility on local boards,. .^. ..... . B-15 Enforcement of rules and regulations by Government agencies B-19 SECOND DAY - Afternoon Sossion Telegram from Secretary of Interior regarding Assessments B-2^ Motion- Rango allotments in 1936 licenses...,.....*...*.. B-21 Motion - Division of dependent property into classes B-23 Motion and Discussion - Defining commensurate property. B-23 Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Rango allotments in 1936 licenses*... B~26 Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Division of Dependont Property into classes • ••••*<>• B-29 Motion and Discussion - License Fees. ...,.,...,....••••»••••••• • B-So Organization. •••••.*•»..*... ........ . - B-4*, B 4> Associations. ..»......»» ° .' • • - «■* Improvement s«....p • • " ° Resolution of thanks - * B"51 I I is '■ I I I l r-1 s \ .5ECOMD -rVHhiUAL; ' i)j$-fRJCj AdVISOXS* LomUH£ ' DIVISION .-Of ^RAUMa £ L CAKH.£.MT£R ■" DIRECTOR. a i-r i \yp r jtY ! IT AM D£0£MJi£'R 9, lo, :]-]9 :1936V- : I I DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION Salt Lake City, Utah December 9, 10 and 11, 1936 FIRST DAY Morning Session (Meeting called to order at 9:15 a.m., December 9, 1936, in the Lafayette Ballroom, Hot el Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah). MR. F. R. CARPENTER, DIRECTOR OF GRAZING: You will recall last year, Gentlemen, we were given a very hearty welcome "by Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah, This year, Governor Blood Is unable to attend, but we are honored to have with us in his stead, the Secretary of State, the Honorable M. H.I Welling, of Utah. Mr. Welling, (Applause) THE HONORABLE M. H. WELLING, UTAH SECRETARY .OF STATE: ■ Mr. Carpenter, Ladies and Gentlemen, I have the great honor to welcome you to the second conference of Grazing officials charged with the responsibility of adminis- tering the national Taylor Grazing Act. To those of us who have watched the unfolding of this program, this is an impressive and an important hour. The program you are. considering was first proposed to the Congress nine years ago by my friend, the Honorable Don B. Colton, a representative of the State of Utah. From that day to this we have had a large proprietary interest in the control and betterment of the public domain. For years progress was slow, difficulties at times seemed insurmountable. It was no easy matter for twenty or thirty men in Congress to command the attention -nd respect of their five hundred associ- ates and colleagues. Success came with the passage of the Taylor Grazing Act and the setting up of the organization which you gentlemen administer today. Utah includes more public Lands administered under this Act than any State represented here, or any state in the American union. In similar proportion, we are grazing more sheep and more cattle than our neighboring states. I sincerely trust that the cooperation you are receiving from the district boards in this state is helpful to the general program. When it is realized that three-fourths of the area of this entire state of Utah is included in the lands which you administer, it must be obvious .that we in Utah are vitally concerned with the policies which you adopt. In recognition of these substantial interests, you officials of the Depart- ment of the Interior at Washington, and representatives of the western public- lands states have done us the honor of holding both of your conferences in this city. May I respectfully invite you to make Salt Lake City and our State the permanent headquarters for. the administration of this great law. Wo would like to have vou feel that Salt Lake City is the Capitol of this great empire of the public domain. I am sure our oeoole will bring to your deliberations a spirit of helpful cooperation and support. This State cannot prosper except through a proper utilization of our range and grazing lands. Of first importance, it seems to mo, is the relationship of the Government to the men who, for years past, have utilized the public domain as a means of livelihood for themselves and the fostering of a great national industry. - 1 - '■ ■ ■ These interests are manifested here by hundreds of stock masters not ofttoialjr connected with the administration of the Taylor Act, yet vitally concerned with its provisions. Their lives and fortunes are involved. Of almost equal importance are the l^"^^/***^*^^^!^! *"* state has large areas of state holding lands intermingled with the public domain. The segregation of these state holding lands for state use, as origi- nally intended hy the Congress is, I am sure, one of the major- problems of the future. It is a happy circumstance that as American citizens, enjoying a background of one Lndrefand fifty (150) years of free Government we come to thi 'confer- ence table knowing that all of these interests can be settled with substantial justice to the individual, the state and the nation. In conclusion, may I extend to you personally, Mr. Secretary Walters, my con- gratulations upon being sent here to represent the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Ickes. Alee to you, Mr. Carpenter, we feel largely indebted for the en- lightened policy under which the Taylor Grazing Act has been initiated. This vast emnire, Gentlemen, is your home, and we are fortunate to have in Washing- Ion men who have grown up en the public domain and understand and appreciate its many problems. (Applause) I ; MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Welling. Our friend, Julian Terrett;_ Assistant Director of Grazing, has come out from Washington today and he is bringing us a message from Secretary Ickes and he is also going to make a few remarks on one phase of the law. Mr. Terrett. MR. JULIAN TERRETT , ASSISTANT DIRECTOR 01 GRAZING: Gentlemen: "To the Second Annual Conference of District Advisors of the Division of Grazing: "I regret that pressure of official business and unforeseen complications in my schedule make it impossible for me to carry out my original plan to attend your conference in Salt Lake City. After, the pleasant and mutually profitable conferences with your Advisory Board Chairmen in Washington last summer, I had looked forward to another personal meeting with you because I *«flV"\ conference had paved the way for a better understanding of problems confront- ing us in the administration of the Taylor Act. "With two years of administration of the Act behind us, I remain convinced that the Taylor Act is a milestone in land legislation and one of the most benefi- cial and progressive laws proposed and passed during this Administration. I have hM Lpfe cause to feel that my original confidence in the Dill was well placed. "I believe that you realize clearly to what extent the judicious administration of this Act depends upon the cooperation of the western stockmen. I await with interest the action taken by your Conference because I foe] that your recommendations will he of great assistance to us during the coming year. We have made substantial progress but we should not be too completely satisfied. "We still have before us many knotty problems. I feel confident that you will give these matters your accustomed consideration and extend to the Department your carefully weighed counsele Harold L. Ickes Secretary of the Interior" I now want to draw to your attention some little known aspects of the Taylor Grazing Act. The Tavlor Grazing Act has been so widely discussed in the west as a practical measure for livestock men in setting up grazing districts and as a means of leasing and selling the remaining public lands which are so s^^e^^o^°^° be properly included within a grazing district, that some of those larger and more far-reaching features have been commented on very little and, in iacL, ~ 2 ~ ■HP •'■"WI^F-^ww^iiipip -.^jef I J: . i are just now banning to (be observed by those who are in close touch with the law. The features to which I refer are those made possible by the langu^e in _ Sections 2, 9 and 12 of the Act, whereby cooperative agreements ^f****** between the Secretary of the Interior and local associations of stockmen, state land officials, official state agencies, federal agencies and depart- ments, with almost no limitation in order to accomplish the purposes of the Act, which are stated in its preamble as follows: iquot..; ■ "To stop injury to the public grazing lands by preventing over grazing and soil deterioration, to provide for their Orderly use, improvement , and development, to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the public range, and for other pur- poses." (Unquote) , I In the first meetings, where this Act was publicly discussed ln\tt» ^.^ astern states, many state and local agencies which had never ^etofore actively cooperated with the Federal Government, were called into conference. State boards of land commissioners, state fish and game ^^f^?££_ road land commissioners and local associations of •tookMn, all of whom hei tofore had been individually pursuing their way as regards the handling of land in direct relationship with the public domain, were invited now to parti cipate in the benefits which might accrue from cooperative agreem en t with the Secretary of tho Interior in carrying out the purposes of the statute.^ There have now been made and signed, a number of such cooperative «£•"«*• of far-reaching effect. The first of these was .the now famous Few Mexico plan for the Protection of wild life within grazing district. Another cooperative agreemenTis that between the Secretary of the Interior :and th eOr.™ State ■ agricultural College, whereby the Range Experiment Station at oquaw Butte, toegon, built and equipped by the Division of Grazing, iks been stocked and is being operated by the college for the determination of proper range practices. ,n ., , • a.\~„0A n f',r-i^aclnr- cooperative contract "between the Mnrp rprpntlv there was signed a in.i icaoi'-u-,.-, oi ^r x . .... Sec etary of the Interior and the Southern Pacific Laid Co*pw *^ «^of allow the grouping and correlation of some four and one-naif million acres oi checkerboard land in the states of Nevada, Idaho and Utah, and the public lands interspersed therein. At the oresent time there is under consideration a cooperative agreement betweenPthe State Land Board of the state of Utah .and the Secretary of the Interior, which will accomplish much the same purpose. Then we have the cooperative agreements with local associations of stockmen, of which in my own state of Montana, I am proud to say, there are now thir- Teen (13) in active operation, whereby the public lands are handled lacon- nection with the state and private lands with which they;are interspersed by local cooperative associations of stockmen. ' These cooperative agreements permit a coordinated uae °^^Je^a£^e tax default and railroad lands, which are so intermingledjfchat the proper use of one cannot be made without use of the -other. Cooperative agreements have been entered into with the ^Conservation Service for the betterment of the range and to prevent erosion, with the Biological Survev for the protection of game animal! and birds, and for the extermination of' rodents and predatory animals ^V ^s l^w thin Administration for the joint control of resettlement lands lying within grazing districts. As pointed out in the beginning, the field for cooperation is almost without'' timit The Division of Grazing stands ready to work for the oonsumma .««4 any cooperative agreement contemplated in the law and to «>?pe™te for the public good, not only with the private and state agencies, but with all Federal agencies and departments. I thank you. ■■■ -i f » ■■ ~ 3 -* MR.' CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I feel that we hardly need any introduction for the next speaker, who has the principal address of the day. He is our good western friend, the Honorable First Assistant Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Walters. ■' - _ ■ THE HONORABLE THEODORE A. WALTERS, FIRST ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE INTERIORS Delegates to the Convention, Ladies and Gentlemen, It is with some regret on my part this morning that I am not privileged to speak to you more freely than I want and more direct, however, under the circumstances, it is advisable that we relate to some extent, the accomplishments and purposes of the Act and draw attention to the provisions and objectives of the Taylor Crazing Act's accomplishments and results. , Less than a year ago, a month and three days less to be exact, we met to- gether in this city on an historic occasion — the first conference of grazing districts delegates from our ten western states. It is significant that that first conference surpassed the most hopeful expectations in setting new and high standards of cooperation between the' livestock men using the public range and the Federal Government. It is my sincere hope, yea, it is based on a sound belief that this present conference will bring forth greater benefits for all those concerned with the public grazing lands than did the first one. In this hope and belief and in the recollection of the very pleasant and worthwhile association with you in the past, I am naturally happy to be with you again at this second milestone in our broad conservation highway. The Taylor Grazing Act is a part of the land history of our nation and bids fair to be one of the most important of all of our land laws. Coming as it did after every possible method of settlement and development by private persons had been fully explored and used and all of the public lands which were capable of producing anything to pay for local taxation had been patented and put on the tax rolls, it dealt with a type of land- never hereto- fore the subject of legislation. The lands in grazing districts are the left-o^cr lands after three generations of settlement — they are the dryest and pporest producing lands in the United States. In and of themselves they have almost no value, in connection with the private lands and water that largely control their use, they are indis- pensable. From this fact came the now famous preference clauses of section 3 of the act whereby the grazing privileges of the public lands in grazing districts are to be used first for the proper use of the private lands and water that are naturally correlated with them. Such a land-use statute as this presupposed that the proper use of the private lands and water was either a known fact or one that could be determined. As a matter of fact this western country has been so hastily settled that even few of the inhabitants know exactly what the proper use of their land is. Lands which for many years were used to raise hay became suddenly more valuable for beet or lettuce raising. Pasture lands never plowed before became more profitable in cultivation when wheat goes above one dollar a bushel. For the past thirty years we have seen our private lands change in the.ir proper use again and again. I recently looked at the first public survey map ever made of the United States. It is a part of the files in the General Land Office and is dated 1866. That map was preparod within the memory of man:,' men now living, and yet it did not show even so much as one government survey post in the States of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, and only a base meridian line in Utah where the Mormon settlements were and in Colorado, Nevada and Nen Mexico just a few surveyed townships where the gold mining activities were greatest. This is cited just to show you one of the principal reasons why we do not know the proper use of the private lands and water of the public range areas of the . eleven western States. i With this far reaching and statesmanlike objective of working out a proper land pattern for the proper relationship of private and public lands in the West, it was only natural that the Taylor Act should not be put into immediate operation so far as its land-use objective was concerned until that could be ascertained. - 4 ~ ' » '-'■ ■;■ - • A method of temporary grazing licenses was found to be' authorized in the broad provisions of section 2 of the act to take -care of the existing live- stock industry until the proper use of the private lands and water was work- ed out, ; This' is only a step in the process of fathering the data upon which to base the distribution of grazing permits. You are assisting us, and in fact doing the major part of the work of inventorying the lands, water, and livestock now being used in connection with the public domain. We are now for the first time assessing all of our range lands, private and public, in an .endeavor to put them to their proper use, .which means their right relationship . There is something almost awenoue about participating in "a work of this kind which stretches so far into the future with its results. This conference and probably many more will be necessary to com- plete the program, and only the inhabitants of this great region, we call1 our home, years hence will be able to appraise the quality of our work and whether it was done in a way worthy of the traditions of the pioneers who first subdued the savage and wildlife of this area and who left to us this task of saying what is the proper use of the private lands and water and their rightful -relationship to those left-over lands which constitute the great "national ranges11 of this country of ours. We have made progress in the eleven months ensuing since our first meeting, despite the fact that both our problems and the areas. bo be under the juris- diction of the Grazing Division of the Department of the Interior have been increased. As you recall, the Taylor Grazing Act was amended June 26, 1936, and the permissible area of vacant, unappropriated and unreserved public lands which might be brought into grazing districts was increased to 142,000,000 of acres. Even though we of the West are accustomed to dealing in vaster acre- ages than are our more easternly neighbors, this is still an enormous terri- tory for us to administer. If these millions of acres were grouped together an idea of their area can be obtained by drawing a line on the southern bound- ary of Maryland and Pennsylvania, around the western boundary of Ohio and - following the shore line of the Great Lakes and the Canadian boundaries back to the Atlantic Ocean. All' the lands included between this line and the Ocean — comprising the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New 'fork, New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Mary- land and Ohio, would equaD only the 142,000,000 acres. This gives us some idea of the vastness of the region which is now, for the first time, being brought into operation and its proper, relation with the land which has been used and useful in the past in protecting the -Treat livestock industry of the northwest. As of November 1936, forty-eight grazing districts have been established, totaling a gross area of 253,012,888 acres of which 110,000,000 acres (in round numbers) are vacant, unreserved and unappropriated public lands. Of these forty-eight (48) grazing districts thirty-seven (37) are now under active administration and progress is being made in bringing under adminis- tration the eleven (ll) districts which have been recently established. Advisory boards have been elected in all of the eleven new districts and it is anticipated that the administrative organization in each of these dis- tricts will be fully completed in time to issue grazing licenses for the season of 1937, . An additional district in Oregon is in the process of being established and it is probable that in the near future still another dis- trict will be established in Colorado. There is a great deal more to the administration of the public grazing lands than appears on the surface. To my mind, one of the most outstanding con- tributions made by the Taylor Grazing Act and its wise administration under the Interior Department is that through the cooperation of the livestock men . themselves and the establishment of district advisory boards, a new contri- bution to the American way of life has been made, a new contribution of Federal Government administration. In handling a vast and complex situation, on organization has been created on Democratic principles in which those most vitally interested in the administration of the public resources have had and are having a fundamental part. Through the cooperation of the district ad- visory boards both the appearance and the actuality of absentee landlordism on the part of the Federal Government has been avoided. - 5 - . You will recall that following the meeting of last January, the information brought out through our discussions was used as the "basis in formulating the 1936 rules and regulations governing the issuance of grazing licenses. In July of 1936 a conference of chairmen of the district advisory "boards was called at Washington by the Secretary of the Interior, in order that their experience and recommendations might "be "brought to "bear on the problems, in- volved in bringing in of an additional 62,000,000 acres under the grazing administration. The chairmen of the thirty-seven district boards then estab- lished were asked for a frank expression as to the progress which had "been made and for their recommendations on policy. In passing I may add, and it is with pride t.'; b I do so, that no one of the chairmen at that meeting had any serious objection to make to the administrative organization thus far given or to the organization or the setup as to the organization which was conducting the affairs of these grazing districts. Before they adjourned they passed unanimously a resolution complimenting the Secretary upon his administration and emphasizing their endorsement and pleasure in his recog- nition of the principle of local autonomy and his appointment of men to jkey positions in the Division who have first hand knowledge of the livestock in- dustry and with privately owned property used in connection with, the public domain as well as with the economic features and problems involved. And to those who attended, I have a picture taken in front of the building, framed by the -Geological Survey, and it is now hanging in my office, with the name of each individual, aptly protrayed at the bottom of the picture* I feel that those individuals passed resolutions which were more than the ordinary run of resolutions passed by similar meetings. They did nc/t hesi- tate to express their frank expression at any ti'me and any place, and for that reason, the resolutions, I folt, meant more than as I have said, the ordinary mine-run of resolutions, / » ' l During the last two years we have proved conclusively that home rule on the range and decentralization of authority are not only practicable and workable but that such a system, although new in dealings between the Government and those using our natural resources, is one of the best yet evolved. This is due in no small measure to the thoughtful and able work of the district ad- visory boards, I am inclined this morning to note from a report made from our energetic, industrious and thoughtful Director of Grazing, Mr. Carpenter, wherein he says: (quoted) "A prime force in the administration of the Taylor Grazing Act is the district advisory boards 3 consi-:;ting ox elected representatives and stockmen in each district. There are 523 representative and able 3tcokmen in an advisory capacity, serving on these boards. "The advisory boards have been invaluable to the Division. Only j those who have personal knowledge of the facts have any conception of the amount of time and labor that members have devoted to the work of recommending adjustments and allocations of range privi- leges in their respective districts and in adopting fair and reasonable rules under which those allocations coulcL be. made. A great amount of work has been done by various board members, parti- cularly the chairmen, for which they can never be compensated in dollars and cents. These men have shown every evidence of fair- ness in their recommendations, and many members have fought for the adoption of certain principles even though the result would be detrimental to their own personal interests. Desoite the fact that the western range men often have been accused of using the range in ruthless manner without regard to conservation prin- ciples the boards have, in many instances, of their own volition t recommended either substantial cuts in the carrying capacity of their districts or a shortening of the season of use." End of • * quotation. - 6 ~ tlllTBH ' / With such an organization- re have made real progress. There are those- who are rot informed and vrho have said we have done nothing., . .-and there are others ..who for reasons of their own maintain that we should have accomplished impo'ssibili- ties overnight., solved every problem, and created a perfect organization and today "be functioning as though we had "been in existence for a docpdc. These are "but thoughtless expressions. You vrho are 'acquainted with t-ho work jn.fr hand know that we have more than one objective and know that vo are reaching toward those objectives with reasonable speed and without the necessity of paving the penalty for uneconomic and too hasty progress. As a part of a process report I shall deal briefly with 'uhe situations involv- ing grazing leases under Section 15, exchanges under Section 8 and the public sale of isolated tracts under Section 14 of the Act. In order to expedite the issuance of grazing ] eases under the authority contained in Sectjon 15;, "on October 22,' the Secretary eliminated all red tape and directed the Commissioner of the General Land Offices to issue instructions requiring the registers of the Land Office to take action immediately . on all pending applications. It will be remembered that while Congress had under consideration the question of increas- ing the acreage of the public lands to be included in grazing districts. from 80 '000,000 acres to 142,000,000 acres, it was impossible for the' General ,Land Office to bake action upon pending applications because of the provision ,of the law that grazing leases' may" be issued only for such lands as were so situated as ■ not to justify their inclusion in grazing districts. Immediately after the issuance of these instructions, contained in Circular No, 1412, a number of ex- perienced employees from the General Lcid Office wore detailed to several of the United States District Land Offices, To eliminate the delay involved in the^ submission of formal reports by the Division of Investigations in each indivi- dual case as had been required theretofore, coecial agents were detailed to the District L,?nd Offices who ^ore faniliar with the lands in the various districts so that they might act in an advisory capacity, especially in the division of the range between conflicting applications,; Leasee issued under the instruct- ions of October 22 are for one year only. /All action taken, however, with reference to these .applications is subject to appeal. As vou are aware, the rental fees charred on these leases is in harmony with the" fees within the grazing districts. They were the fees heretofore establish- ed. While the regulations require publication for each amplication for 760 acres or less in order to meet the ninety-day preference accorded owners of adjacent or cornering lands the work has been simplified a\d exneditcd l-y the recent authori- zation of blanket publications at Government expense by counties in those states where any substantial number oen rejected, .757 leases have. teen sent to applicants for execution, 327, leases have been; returnecVduly executed, 396 leases await the expiration of the publication period and 684 nave yet to he considered. You tail note, that is as of Hovencer 28th. By this ime , the runters which have teen executed or set out for execution, have heen largely augmented, since the Land Off ice is no* in the process of executing tnese leases and expediting action relative to. them. Continuing our statistical trend for the moment, it will .interest you to know that 423 applications for exchange of state-owned lands for public lands under authority of Section 6 have been filed hy the States of Arizona, Colorado New Mexico, Montana, Utah and VSyoming. Approximately two and one-half million acres are involved in these applications. The averse selection list includes ahout six thousand acres, although some embrace as much as. twenty to flit/ thousand acres. • Some of the applications for exchange have been rejected because of adverse re- ports on the -round that their approval would interfere with the administration of grazing districts. A considerable number of applications nave seen .rejected for the reason that the selected lands rare vjitfadrasm or (otherwise not available. Delays in the consummation of State exchanges have been due to the fact that a large number- of the applications were filed prior to the issuance of the refla- tions, which necessitated the f iliac of supplemental applications. Also, in a large number of cases unsurveyed school sections were offered as basis for ex- change, which base was not valid prior to the amendatory act of June 26, 1936c The Amended Act provides that where the selected lands are within a grazing dis- trict the base lands must be within the same grazing district, _ It has thus been necessary to require amendment of many of. the pending applications by substitu- tion of valid base. *, Some of the States have taken advantage of the provision. in the amendatory ,a^ which' permits State exchanges on the basis of equal acreage, as well as equal values. The procedure under the equal area provision makes unnecessary a field investigation for the purpose of determining values, and where .a State elects to receive title to the selected lands, with a reservation of all minerals to the United States, no field examination is necessary to establish the mineral or non-mineral characteristic of the land so selected. Under a recent ruling of the Department it has been held that State-ovmed lands within reservations or withdrawals may be offered as a basis for exchange under the Grazing Act. This considerably widens the scope of exchanges permissible. At the request of the State Board of Land Commissioners of Montana, the Depart- ment has recently authorised the detailing of a representative 'from tne Divi- sion of Grazing and from the Division of Investigations to cooperate with the •representatives of the State in making tentative pl.ons for exchange of otate lands. Similar cooperation will be extended to other States upon the request . of such states as are interested. Applications for the exchange of privately-owned lands have been less active, but 37 have been received, four of which have been rejected and the remainder are awaiting reports from the field- Only one application has as yet been re- ceived for the exchange of railroad lands as such. This is due possibly to the fact that some, at least, of the railroad companies have frozen security under bond issues. There has been but little interest sd far shown in Section 14 of the Act, as indicated by applications received. Up to the present 641 applications have been received, patents have been issued in 13, sales authorized in 5 and denied in 457 cases. The Department of the Interior and the Division of Grazing are making every effort to overcome the situation presented by the checkerboarding or staggering of the ownership of certain lands and its attendant administrative dilf iculties. I am convinced that this particular problem, troublesome as it is, is capable - 8 - ■ i •HiW'.HMmj^ilipB of solution and if we continue such progress as we have already nacle we will arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. As an. example of one approach to this problem I may cite the cooperative agreements entered into by the Secretary of the Interior, beginning March 17, 1936, with grazing associations in tne^State of Montana, where the public lands constitute only approximately twenty-^five percent of the area and are intermingled witjh state, county, tax default >, . railroad and other privately owned lands . These agreements are adaptable for use in any other state where a similar situation nay bo found to exist. Realizing that permits could not be issued until a comprehensive and reliable range survey is made, a survey which will show not only the carrying capacity of the public domain ranges, but also the 'ownership of the private dependent properties and the number of stock for which they are commensurate, the, Divi- sion of Grazing has issued temporary licenses to those engaged in the livestock business having dependent commensurate property with priority of use. To 'date approximately 17, £83 licenses have been issued which have a class 1 rating, covering a total of 7,553,476 livestock, composed of 1,644,434 head of cattle, 95,700 head of horses, 5,653,395. head of sheep and 158,947 head of goats. These licenses are temporary, as you know, in character. In the main they form a recognition that the dependent commensurate properties upon whicn they are based are entitled to grazing privileges, .although the exact extent of this grazing privilege has not yet been definitely and finally determined. Ehis cannot be done until the range survey program is completed. However, the, range survey program is well under way. Recent reports show that a total of 640 tewnshios have been surveyed in the ten western States, and, 6,162 dependent property reports have- been made out of the entire number ^of dependent property reports amounting to 14,063. In the 37 grazing: districts where there is active administration, a vast amount of preliminary work has been accomplished. In addition to range survey prog- rams, just mentioned, a tremendous amount of range improvement has been .planned, and a considerable amount has been completed. This worfc as you are a^rfc, has been done largely through the C. 'C. C. camps under the control of the Division of Grazing. In addition to this, you are well acquainted with the provision of the law which permits twenty-five percent (25$) of the grazing fees to be appropriated ■by Congress for the purchase and maintenance of range improvement on the public domain from which the fees have been derived. These improvements, as well ,a3> those made by the C. C. C. camps, have been made and located only after appro- val and recommendation of the local advisory boards having jurisdiction in the areas in which the improvements were to be made, thus giving assurance that they would be practical in nature, properly located, and so constructed as to give a maximum of use, protection, and benefit to the range. t It will undoubtedly be of interest to know that in connection with the range improvement work of the C. C. C. camps under the Division of Grazing that estimates have been "made showing that we would be able to use properly and efficiently, two hundred of these camps, each with a personnel of two hundred individuals, which would be useful in carrying to a final consummation, some of the most needed range improvements. Some of us are interested in the conservation of wildlife on our public ranges. Many of you already know of the Hew Mexico plan, an mentioned by Mr. Terrett, • and undoubtedly many of you by this time are fa.iiliar with the wildlife pro- tection program adopted by the advisory boards in the state of Oregon. A detailed account of the Oregon plan would not be anpropriate at this time, however, it contains a recognition of the ri-;htr, of and the need for game pro- tection on the range. It calls upon the State Game Commission, Forest Service, Biological Survey and all other interested parties to cooperate with the Divi- sion of Grazing for the conservation of our wildlife. This plan has netwith general approval, and it is now, being submitted to the advisory boards in all of the districts throughout the ten western states with the exception of Hew Moxico. . Its enthusiastic reception i's proof positive that the livestock men as a whole are not only wildlife conservationists at '-cart but believe in the conservation and development of all of those natural resources which contribute to making the west economically, socially and industrially a better place in which to live. More attractive, if you please, to the human family as a whole. t ~ 9 - *mr ' T *ta* ' l Pffl*| In conclusion, let me assure you this morning that your deliberations during this conference will be closely followed by Secretary* I ekes, who has requested me to extend to you his greetings, and tihat the recommendations you make 'will- receive the careful consideration of the Department of the Interior, in con- s nection with the essential and proper administration of the range during 'the coming year. I thank you. (Applause) i MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I was taught to believe that in the taking of much counsel there was strength. If that is so, there is going to be an "awful lot of strength given to the administration of trie Taylor Act by such an1 assem- blage as this, because I see before us today the men who are the most vitally concerned with the proper handling of this law in the ten western states^ not only in number, but also in the character of counsel we will £et, for I recollect very well the words% of a very wise teacher under whom I sat. He said, there are two kinds of counsel you could get in this world — the counsel of men who made theirs and were trying to keep it, who were occupying the lobbies of hotels and the plush seats of retired men's clubs. And the other' kind of counsel comes from men who were on the make, trying to make their living and were in the 'heat of the conflict. As I look about in this assemblage, I realize it is this latter type of counsel that we will got here today, and so I feel more .than ever, it is the kind to be relied upon. We are going to follow this order of business in this conference. There will be a general discussion here today. Tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. , you will meet by states, and you will discuss the. state attitude on' these topics men- tioned in the program, and there you will elect two representatives of a major committee, which will meet in the afternoon to discuss each of those six 'great topics. The major committees will meet in the afternoon and complete their' drafts by night, and on Friday they will meet here again in the general assembly. The results of the six major committees will be debated, adopted or modified ■ and that will complete the second annual conference of the District Advisors. For this morning session, before we onen up the topic for discussion, the first one is licenses, followed by permits, I want to make a brief statement in order that you may orient yourselves and approach this in a way that will get to the pith of the matter as soon as possible. The commonest remark I hear, as I travel about from state to state and ask what, in their opinion, the Taylor Act has done for them, is to say it hasn't done anything but slap a fee on us. To look about on the range and to observe this act, without some consideration and study, that might be accepted. However, before this body of men, who are the co- laborers in this field with those of us who are in the Federal Govern- ment, before that result is accepted I want to just briefly touch on one or two things about which you may not have thought heretofore. The Taylor Act has preserved the status quo of the time of the organization of the district, that is, — no new operators have been allowed to como on and start in grazing on the public domain. It is required that the old operators only go until such time as we can determine by thorough and proper considera- tion of the land. That, in and of itself, has been a proper protection to the public domain, as well as to yourselves. I notice in the papers, and it is true, that there has been a cut of some 800,000 head of livestocki. I do not wish for a minute for you to think, and we do not think, that the end and ob- jective of this act is to cut numbers of livestock. The end and object of \;his act is to increase numbers of livestock. > However, we stepped into a program which was slipping in a direction that we were not able immediately to stop. I heard some figures from the Secretary of the Utah Wool. Growers Association that astonished me. He had the figures of the number of sheep in Utah since 1920, and, gentlemen, they have been slipping since 1920 at the rate of a million or less since 1924. That process wa3 started before the Taylor Act was enacted and you cannot step into a decreasing range, as the Taylor Act did, and arrest it in a minute, and so it will bo necessary . for some time to make this adjustment and there may have to be a considerable lessening of the livestock numbers because, as we know, unless this range - 10- / ^mm ■ • - - -^^ ■ ' ■' — reaches stability and has protection, there is no hope for any 'of us and that means no,t only our livestock, but our private properties -that are dependent thereon. p? not think that the Division of Grazing feels its existence will "be justified "by cuts in the numbers of livestock. The Division of Grazing feels that its ultimate justification is by increasing the numbers in livestock. , nr • I We realize that livestock is the underlying basis of the agricultural system. We realize that the total cash receipts from; livestock and its products in the United States in the year 1935 exceeded the /total receipts of all agricultural products combined by over some $700,000 .COO. That is to say, thirteen selected livestock items and their products exceeded the seventy-eight other products, which are cotton and tobacco and wheat and corn, and all the rest of them, and not only that, but the livestock consumed the by- products of tho principal other industries of the cov.nf.ry — the beet factories , the wastage from the grazing fields, the stubble and the straw, and in a thousand other ways, livestock is the one great supporting industry of this entire country. And for that reason as the livestock industry prospers, so prospers the other industries of agri- culture, of which it buy3 most of .its products and buys directly and indirectly. ! How 'many industries would be here if tho products of the existing livestock! industry and mines failed us? None, and so ultimately we hope to support, more cattle and horses, sheep and goats than ever before. 3ut when we step into something that has been going down hill as this public domain has, it takes some little while to get the matter adjusted and stopped, and that is the reason we read those reports, which are of a co::nplex nature. I am not going to recite here the by-products of this act,' but I believe we have reached an all-time high for Government divisions in th'e-matter of coopera- tion. We have entered into active cooperative agreements with associations of stockmen. We have entered into active cooperation with great railroads con- trolling a groat empire of land. We have negotiated cooperative agreements with State Land Boards who own a large part of the public domain, particularly' in this state. Wo have entered into cooperative agreements for the handling of wildlife and for range experiment stations, and in addition to those we have Government cooperative agreements with the Soil Conservation and Biological Survey, and ,. many. other agencies of Government. This action has spread out and now you see focussed in this meeting the results of the work* • • ''' There are those who say we have done nothing but slap a fee on them. The average life of the grazing district in the west is seventeen months and twenby-six days. That leaves out the newly organized districts that are not organized as yet. Seventeen months and twenty-six days is the average life. It is questionable whether or not we have not exceeded everything wo hoped to do, as it .seems to mo the main objective that we have reached is that we have acquired a way of working together, and we have forever answered the age old saying that I heard when I went around these states. People used to tell me that cattle and sheepmen could not sit down amicably in a room and discuss a subject together. That is a thing of the past. Those men in this room have proved -it is a thing of the past. I have been in plenty of meetings in my day where tho sheepmen sat on one side of the room and the cowboys on the other. But I can't spot which is a sheopman and a cowman in this bunch today. I am happy to see that. That is one thing we have oroved. There is another thing we have proved, and that is s^cctenen interested in the use of this range could be far-sight od enough to forego some immediate use for the sake of preserving and rehabilitating the publi : domain. There are those who said that was impossible — to forego one little blade to grass to lat it seed down. They wanted to grab it off and use it this year and never mind the future. The western men have shown that they are locking toward the future. Then, lastly, there is another thing that we have demonstrated and that ia these new districts that have been set up, have r ©-demonstrated it, in the - 11 - "!-r- ~««».~... inauguration of this system of administration, I consistently heard from very substantial operators that the idea of "one man, one. vote" would T)e very, dis- astrous generally to the larger outfits, that the hoard would he dominated by' small two-by-four men, who did not know just what it was all about. Time after time it was demonstrated not to bo so. Tine after tine it was demonstrated that the western ran^e livestock men vote for the man, neither hie; nor little, hut the man in whom they had confidence. In these new districts set up, I met the, same objections. ""Don't turn us over to the mercies of these flat-footed farmers" and the "flat-footed farmers" voted the "best of any range men, I am told, in the new sotups that have come in., So, we have really qlcmonstro.ted the sound principles on which our Government is "based, of one man", one vote, and the ability of the people to elect representa- tives who will represent them. properly. Those things wo have demonstrated. We now have a working machine and we ha-e a problem beio-o us. We have mouthed it around long enough in our mouths until we know what it was ahout, until now the time has come when we want to sink our teeth into it and know exactly where we are going* This" industry will never hit its stride until we reach a degree of stabilization, so a mo.n will know about where he is one year from now, and will know where he is coins to be ten years from now, as well as one month. That is our big objective. • i That brings me down to the topic in hand, which is the matter of licenses and the matter of permits. The two have to be token up together. I am gcing to sketch out a little preliminary statement and then open the matter for discussion from the floor. Before I do that I will announce certain rules that I believe will make for our best progress in the discussion. Do not make any mistake about the Taylor Act. The Taylor! Act was set up as a land stabilization act and incidentally, and, of course as a direct result, to stabilize the lives took* industry. It was set up to find out the proper relation- ship of those public and private lands, and insofar as consistent with that pur- pose to award priorities and orotect them and allow them to use the range. Now, no range man could read that law and start in to administer it, because nobody in this world knew what the proper relationship of the public and private lands was. That relationship had been demonstrated by use. I have found some livestock traveling a thousand miles to use a bit of land here with another bit of land here. It had been established by custom and it had been established by cattle, but it had not been established by proper inventories of all the properties of the west. I realize the hopelessness of such situations. I went into this work on September 12, 1934, end the third day I was in the work I wrote the Solicitor of the Department and I asked hi- whether 'it was possible to set up a preliminary setup to take care of the existing industry until the public domain could be inventoried and to discover the proper relationship of these lands, whether the powers of section 2 were broad enough to disregard the mandate in section 3, which said that priorities and range privileges should be turned in only after the land usages were required, because if that had to bo done we would have to wait for three or four voars, until we found out what the land was. He said the powers in section 2 were sufficient that we could set vp sufficient setup to make and to consider priorities and range privileges recognized and ac- knowledged and as nobody knew what range privileges were, and as nobody knew how they were to be recognized and acknowledged, we were told to find out and recom- mend to the Department, and you have advised us plenty. If you will look on the back of your program you will find the advice of thirty- so^en (37) districts, all the way from half a year to ten years.- Call it a com- posite if you like, call it a hodge-podge if you like, but it was done by practi- cal people in a practical woy to take care of a situation, until the day was here until we could go into the working part of the act and also to make a cushion or shock absorber before the relationship of that land was properly worked out. That has been your job and mine for the past two years, and that has been worked - 12 - pp^lflpp with laborious study and appropriation and conciliation. Our work in some eight- een thousand (13, COO) specific cases in hundreds of meetings in which you men > have staved long over union hours and worked, and while your work may not be perfect, at least you have a machine which picked this thing up within six months after the enactment of the act, within six months after the districts were set up we have what is an American working machine* i Last year, you may recall, you met here and you took the instructions of May 1936 and you kicked some of them in the waste paper basket,, and we took, five great results hack to Washington and incorporated them in the Rules of March 2, 1936, and under those rules we have been action They are net perfect „ They are only a step in our program. We, at this time, can appraise those rules and say what is wrong about the license method. : I . You will find on the back of your prograii, rvt estimate prepared by the nan in charge of Baugo Surveys, teJling about what tine each district with the;< present personnel carfhave the data where any Governmental agency pan move in with- any degree of sanity and try and say what the proper relationship of the land is. You will notice that many of these districts are mnny years off* tthen the distinction between licenses and permits are f.'.-ially understood there will be. some who wi?.l never want to get on permits and some who will want to get there tomorrow mcrninj a'o 7Ux). That is what we wont to do here today, mainly to clarify. the difference, and see which way re are going and I am trying to set up some kind of guidepost with which we can judge itc I recollect a Mexican who had. an old team of mules, and that Mexican and those mules used to synchronize their, movements so you could not tell whether thec were moving at alio You would have to get a long ways off and get a post or tree between you, and then you could see which way they were going. The man on the range does not know which way he is going, and I have also heard seme well-informed men express the fear, that we were going too fast in this matter, and that is another reason for this conference, in ^rder that we may definitely face the issues and know what it is we are going to do0 We .are ffoi-lK into this, as Secretary Walters told you., a oro-ram of making a true- land use" in this country that is almost awesome, bee-use it will govern ourselves and our children and our descendants for many years to come. I know of no other country that has so much nuhlio land scattered around and that chooses to use this public land for the special benefit of the private lands and water inter- spersed- ffo ask no such thine as the power of a sovereign. V;o know that the/ well-being of ouv peonle is for the benefit of our sevecoign, because the people tnemselvefl are the sovereign. And so, indeed., the crocus; results of the homestead law, as has been stated by the General Land Office, .are the thousands of millions of chimneys over Kansas, Kehraska and Iowa, where that pirn worked successfully and by the up-building and the granting of title to those lands, that is wnat made us the na.tion we arte Mow, by the proper ascertainment of this public load that is not able to /be deeded, even if :rcu wanted, became it couldn' t support taxation, we continue in the ordinary program of :.ur imcric-m Government to neko the people prosper- ous, individual well-being, and thereby moke the country what it is. With that preliminary statement, gentlemen, I want to arnounce some rules here that if you are not in accord with them, I would be glad to have them discussed. I am going to ask each speaker when he gets up to announce his name and his state. I am going to ask the spencers in front to turn a/ound end talk to the 'audience and net to me. I am gcing to ask thorn to talk in a loud voice and I am going to ask those in the back of the norm and these in t.ae front ol the room, I am going to ask those who do not hear to ray "louder" and then if we have M many Haulers", 1 am going to oak thorn to cone up hero, to step xn front of the mike, ffe have a loud speaker here which will take just an ordinary conversation, and as some of you do not have a voice which will carry over tne room, I am going to ask you to como up here. < - 13. - ■ ».i i .■ «l ■■|IH«»» ■ tH And ps there are a large number hero who .trill wish to he heard on these .subjects I am going to hold time on you and 'no speaker will speak over five minutes^, without the consent of the Chair or the assembly, and no speaker will speak trace or, the same topic, as long as there are others who have not spoken wno^ wish to be heard. That is in order to make a fair debate and get all sio.es m- All talks and all questions asked we will ask to be confined to the topic under consideration. We are going to come to enforcement, improvement, range survey* and many other topics this afternoon, fees and finances, but this morning we wish to confine ourselves to licenses and permits, changes which we think are proper and necessary in these rules and to bring out clearly here just what we mean and which way wo are going. Anyone who wishes to talk behind the mike is privileged to step up here and apeak from behind the mike. I will .announce the first topic for discussion. This is a general discussion. The members of the Advisor- Boards delegates here, and others in attendance who are interested are more than privileged to speak and ask questions on this subject, because we are sitting down now to take counsel together, as we have been doing for two years, to try and clarify an issue and the intriguing part of it is that there is no answer in the back of the book and we have the interesting job of working it out step by step.' The matter is now open for questions or remarks. Are there an/ changes in the present license method of distribution, and furthermore, this topic is a matter of great concern to this Department. The disparity in the rules of priority between districts ~- the disparity in the rules of priority just over state lines — what is your wish — that the disparity be continued or do yov think it would.be more proper that we have the same priority date established here for the United States or by regions of uso? (Applause) MR. FRANK MO ARTHUR, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA. (California Grazing Dis- trict No. 2): Gentlemen, that is a subject which interests mo. MR. CARPENTER: If you will turn please, so they will all get you. MR. MC ARTHUR: I think that the priority rules should be established the same all over the United States, the dates in which the priorities are to be figured, the same. MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here, Frank, and tolk. Frank is an old-time operator from Northern California. MR. MC ARTHUR: Ladies and gentlemen, this is- the first time I have talked before one of these things .and I hope it will prove to be all right. Tne sub- ject which Mr. Carpenter has suggested - that of priority - interests me. In District No. 2, California, we dated it back five (5) years My personal interest in the thing is this (I see Mr. Clarke and Mr. Jenkins looking at me). Their message to me is that two years out of those five years I had no cattle on that range, but that is a selfish end of it. And in fairness to the people who own Land within the district or near the district I think that whenever the priorities should be established they should be the same. *nd with that brief statement, I want to thank you for your attention and will sit down. Thank you. MR. CARPENTER: He has given us an idea of the right way for a stockman to talk — right to the point. MR. MORONI A. SMITH, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 8): I have never talked before one of those mikes — MR. CARPENTER: "Think how many speakers we are going to break into this today, friends. - 3.4 - g MR. SMITH: Gentlemen, I happen to operate sheep in three different -states here, Utah, Colorado and some in Wyoming. It rather gets me to think about what - we expect to do in the shape of universal regulations.' It is my candid opinion that the rules of priority should be universal in order to he legal* I rte't think that this Department could moke me have a priority in cne st-.te that I don't have in one state. I would ask for the same qualifications if. ore st;.to, that I have in another state. That is the conclusion to which I havrs come, and I think we will have to coordinate this thing "back to tho feoginning. Priority in the use of the livestock has "feeen a late contention v/ilh most all of the livestock men. What is the date for the consideration of the prior it" of use of the lajid? That question is not settled. It has not "been settled either way. We will have to get at a happy medium somewhere. When we talk about the priority of use, that is a legal situation. . Any rules and regulations that the Department may make which are not legal, will not hold, even if the whole body makes them, ■ if they do not conform with this act .or the common law that preserved tho use of the public domain relative to priority of use of public resources. In the beginning of thio act, right on the first line, it soys: "To stop injury to the public grazing lands by preventing ovorgrazing and soil deterioration, typ provide- for their orderly use, improvement, and development, to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the public range, and for other purposes-" These dependencies are all the livestock that was there at the creation of 'this law. It is self-evident that they were dependent — you can't dispute thrat. Now, I would like to see the Attornov General come out hore and help us solve these laws and get them into a legal aspect. Now, as to adjudication and ramification — I think adjudication is our most im- portant question at this time so as the administrative laws can be more easily acceded to by the definite facts. Then the law of adjudication — by tho way, I have got a lot of priority in my ovn properties — owning about 50,000 acres of ground in the three states. That is, I think, pretty near as heavy a land holding as anybody has. . But I want to see the thing get into a start right off, and not be like the Forest Reserve. I remember it. They gave us first a ten-year permit, then they reduced us here in Utah fifty or sixty percent. Thank you, gehtlbr.cn, . MR. CARPENTER: Now, I didn't call time on him just because he mentioned tho Forest Reserve. Nov, we have hoard from the cowboy and the sheepherder. Both agree that priority should be made uniform, that is as to dates or rules, 'I or whatever it is. '.'■ MR. J. E. CONDIT, HAGERMAN, IDAHO., (I-laho Gracing District' No. 1): You have heard from the sheepman and the cowboy, nnd I represent the "flat-footed j farmer". MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here. I knew I would get in "Dutch" when I talked about those foot. MR. CONDIT: I nover stood before one of those mikes before, and I don't know how I will make out. About this priority of right being the same all over • I don't see how that can work. In the printed reoorts here, it says that over fifty percent of the graziers own less than .fifty head of stock. I happen to be representing that class of people, in a district where the priority causes con- siderable trouble. Cur Chairman here told you that the by-products t'.^-t tho stock u.uod and the by- products of the farm went together. Now, in the Twin Falls country, along Snake River, they are all farmers, with a small amount of stock, and this priority is cau3inr: lots of trouble . Men, before I got away from here I expect to introouce a r^s.olution, which I don't suppose I will get to work — but I am going to ask for it, that the man with less than twenty head of stock that has more than the proper commensurate property, will be allowed to put that stock on the range. I thank you. - 15 - -i '• l' ' •■ - ■! ■ *»> ■■ppppipp MR, CARPEKTER: That is what nak&s a meeting. V{e have got all kind's of people o MB* GUS PAPPAS, RIFLE', COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. l): Ladies and gentlemen — MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here, Mr. Pappas. You run in two states, don't you? All right, Mr. Pappas, pack it on. -— .^ MR. PAPPAS: Ladies and gentlemen, this is now to me', and I don't know if I can make it work.. In discussing the priorities in the matter, as Mr. , Carpenter has said, we are goin*: to work together. I will make my statement todojf — a few words for all you hero in this meeting. I have followed this meeting since the Taylor Grazing Act was started, so, I say to vou this, I know it is for the benefit of the livestock on the range and to you people. This has besn what I have seen — what has been discussed >y the , Boards — I think it is important to everyone of us. . , '*» I nT a member of the Board on District So. 1 this year and I take my part in the meetings, hut I think today is the tine for all of us ^o set this on a legal basis and to satisfy everybody. So, what I say on District No. 1 applies on I,o. . 8, where the proper use of public and .private lands are both combined and people having property in Colorado come down to Utah. Now, we have some cases over there where the Advisory Board finds somebody half a mile cut of the limitation where they have the* sixty-five mile rule. This is the time for us to say about that one-half rule, or sixty-five mile, or one-mile rule, and we should get together and then fix it up. And, also the priority rights — for instance, there was a man in Colorado allow- ed his stock on the public land 5n the western states, made, let us say, fifty thousand or a hundred thousand dollars, and then he buys .that property in 19o7. There is nothing to stop him investing his money, and there was nothing to stop him when this Act was enacted in 1934. Sow, they w-it this man out and say to him he will have to be a pioneer here of ten years or you can't use this range. I had a lot to soy on this subject, but I have forgotten it , so I will thank you very much for your attention. MR. C\RPEIG on ^ part of W™**£ ^ BJof tha De_ district advisors have stolon the show, t..at «WW t u partnent, or have the Department's sole oar ^ichovcr t.oj ou wisn P Fils neoting, and this day's sessxon, is distinctly ope. to jwy us and I 4elf to he the wishes of the ^rte^^g"^ ^Lorst hut deo^artaental nen, that they want to he.ar, not paly fron 01 ***"* f; * fro* all users of the range who feel thenselvos aggrieved fron an: cause. That is the reason we want it understood that no one will he jtatjjf^ * eiyone 1. 3oing to he hoard, within *^™^^£^1^lS£u. he- sion. But, especially, this day is uoing *° °° *°* ;™L reEOiutions, and the cause the hoards, after this day is over, will ^^""g^ !,oho^ tat final day nohody hut hoard nenhors will sport? on t.ie resolution, ana -j hoard. r.or.hers will vote on the resolutions. ^ - 26 - I ■ ■ I ~ p_l However, at this tine, we. want to hoar all parties. So I want to again extend an Invitation to any one to ;voice anything they wish. , i There seems to he a little misunderstanding as to the committee meetings , tomor-' ' row In the committee heetings tomorrow, you will meet by states. flhen the dis- trict advisors of the state are assembled in the roon, they can decide whqtner they wish to have others besides district advisors in the roon or not, and they ^ can have then in or not, just as they desire. T^ey will then diocuss those Questions, and the last hour 6t their nomine meeting will he devoted to electing no-tors of a national comittoe. ' On each of the six subjocts, they will elect two members. Utah having so many licenses, and being in two regions, will elect four nonbers. 'That is, Region 1, which is the west side of Utah, ana Region 2, the east side of Utah, will each elect two members on each of tsho six national committees. The other states will elect two men on their national committees. Then, at two o'clock tomorrow afternoon, general committees, after listening to general discussion and states' discussion, will settle down to one topic to con- centrate on, and bring bade to the general meeting, which will open up Friday at nino o'clock, their reports. As to where these state meetings will he held: That information will be obtain- able at the information doslc on the nezzanine floor. The neetmgs will all be hold in this hotel building. Arizona will r.eet in Roon 202, California in Room 0-38, Colorado in Roon 0-41, Idah* in 0-43. Montana in 206 Nevada in Ch42, New Mexico in 138, Oregon in 207, Utnh in the Jade Roon, which is Roon 100, -a largo roon, on account of the size of the delegation, and Wyoming in Roon 0-37.: Thero will bo signs posted over the rooms. Thoro will be an information de*e on the mezzanine floor when you get here in the morning. Most of these rooms aro on this floor or the floor above. In the afternoon, the national committees: The committee on licenses will meet in Room C-41, the committee on permits in 0-43,. foes and finances in 138, range improvements 0-38, range surveys C-37, and legislation in 0-43. If you are in doubt as to where your room is, if you will inqvd.ro at the information desk, they can speedily sot you right. We are anxious to start these committees off promptly on tine in the morning. I have been informed of a number of misunderstandings since our morning meeting, and I havo also boon asked to continue the discussion of the importance of prior- ities in licenses. We have a number of other subjects just as important to go over. I feel it would be unfair to the committees and the state delegations not to have those subjects covered in the general assembly, and particularly to give the chance to those who are not district advisors to cone hero and express tnon- selvoB, whether for or against the syston we are using. For that reason, I feel' we should cover the other topics. Then, if we have any •time left over, we can go back to this intriguing subject of priorities again. But I feel, after our two-hour discussion this morning, we have a fair cross-sec- tion hero, and we have sone thing for your state committees to take up and later your national committee. 3Ne next subject for discussion is the natter of permits; I feel that the most valuable 'thing that can be done at this tine is to got a distinct concept in all of our minds ,9 to what a pornit under the Taylor Grazing Act is, or is going to be. Then, after you have reached there, you can look bade, and see better wheat the licenses are, and you can see the rather insignificant position which priorities will play, relatively, in pernits, to what they are now playing in licenses, arid possibly it will give you a better perspective in any further 'discussion of prior- ities here today. Preferences in the issuance of grazing licenses shall bo given for the proper use of the land that they own, use or occupy. Any other consideration besides the proper uso of the lands in or near the district will havo to bo, consistent with what lias been done, to hook up the proper relationship botwoon tho public and private lands. In other words,, under the pemits, wo are obliged to bo consist- ent with the other purposos and provisions of the Act. That does not noan, neces- sarily, however, that priorities sink into such alow state that they have nothing - 27 - ... —I I •V I f; to do until everything is practically fixed by the property set-up. because you all know that Section 3 does not say that ranee privileges recognized and acknow- ledged nust "bo consistent with the property set-up, or nust bo consistont with =. the proper use of land. It says it must ho consistent with the 'ether purposes and provisions of this Act, and ono of tho other purposes of this Act is ,the stabilization of tho livestock industry so that it does not go clear out of Digit and tho stabilization of tho livestock industry is one of tho purposes that nust ho adhered to and that all rules nust ho obliged to ho consistont with, j Now, you have copies of tho Act. Many of us havo studied it for years, and will probably he studying it for nany noro years. Ultinately, of course, courts will pick it up and study it, arid finally, the United States Supreme Court will un- doubtedly say what tho authors neant when they wrote "proper use of lands" and "ranee privileges recognized and acknowledged." In the noantino, it is our do-, sire to so interpret the proper use of those words, gentlemen, that ,we will have no fear of any decision of any court, in order that wo nay have no undoing to do in this adninistration and this adjudication of range privileges. That is tho endeavor of the Department, and that is the (reason for the taking of this wido counsel hero today, and for this debate. j Now, a permit is passed prinarily to give privileges to honesteadors, sottlers or land-ownors. Nearly all of the possible users cone within those throe classes, • so they aro relatively uninportant. Everybody is oither a honosteader, a settler or a land-owner, bocause, if ho lives there, he is naturally a landowner, hono- steader or sottler, but he is given a pernit for tho proper use of tho lands and water he owns and occupios, if within or noar tho district. First, wo havo the groat stumbling block; how near is noar? And second, what is the proper use? Is the proper use the denonstratod uso nade heretofore, or is tho proper use tho use for that particular type of land, by reason of its vegetation, clinato, rain- fall, and so on, which it is host adapted to, whothor that is what it is now used for, or whothor it is now being used for sone thing different. M ■«•••• i « You realize that we now havo two districts which have the carrying capacities completed by careful range, survey, and agreed upon by tho stock non. That is, in New Mexico. Wo have one pieco of range in Colorado District 2 whero allocations havo beon nade and allotments agreed upon, and there is a possibility of only one appeal out of tho entire district, which doubtless can bo fixod up. So we are .going to havo, before we go thru this year 1937, sono kind of regulations for permits. When a permit is issued, it is obligatory, under tho torns of the Act, that it be renewed, provided the permittee has complied with the rules and rogu- lations of the .Secretary, and provided its failure to bo renewed would impair the security of. his sot-up, if it bo pledged for a bond fide loan. So that is a permit and it is a very serious natter to go into. So wo want to see what your ideas and recommendations would bo for those ruloo for term permits. In other words, while we have been seeking the proper relation- ship of land, we practically perform a narriago ceremony when- we give tho terra pornit, because we hook up, private lands and wator with sone range, and, while there nay be changes for conservation and othor uses, at the sane tine it was^ Oongross* desire that public range be used properly and be usod so as to give the proper use to that which tho settlors and people of the west have found that ,*they ; could patent and uso with their set-ups. I believe that, before going further, it might possibly bo bost illustratod if we got some questions from the floor, as to this distinction between a license sot- up and a permit set-up. I an going to ask , if there aro any questions, that you ask them at this tine* MB, J. E. CONDIT, BAGSHMAN, IDASO (Idaho District No.l)i I would like to know tho difforonco botwoon a license and a permit. MR. CARPENTER: You will find on — I think it is — the last page of your program, ther e are set out the distinctive differences betwoon licenses and per- mits. Licenses are purely an administrative sot-up, under tho broad powers given tho Secretary, to do all things necessary to carry out tho purposos and provisions of this Act, whereas permits aro governed by a spocific statutory - 28 - BPffipP * . . . guard. Liconsos, as you know, are temporary, and for a year only. Permits will "be anything up to ton yoars .and is a guard against a failuro to renew a permit, for those in do bt , and there aro t?ireo or four other distinctions botuoon liconses and permits that aro sot out. You will find then in the progran. It is Exhibit 4 in your progrnn, MR. McARTHUR, CALIFORNIA: Eow can they Intelligently issue a permit 'until you know the value of the whole property as compared with the -value of the range land in which the licenses are issued. MR. CARP2NTER; Mr. McArthur has asked this questioni He says, "How can you intelligently issue a pernit until you know hot only tho carrying capacity of tho range land, "but the value and use of the private lands and water, and' tho proper relationship between tho two kinds of lands." Now, gontlonon, ho has hit the nail right on tho head, H7e can not do that, and that i3 tho roason we have not tried to do it. Failing this accurate date as to the carrying capacity of the range, as to the commensurate value and tho dependent value of tho private lands and wator, and foiling a r.ioro propor relationship that can only cone to us after we got that data, wo have had 'to wait until after we got it. This past year, we have been working on a range survey, which has been completed in one district. In some statos, it will bo complotod this year, and so on, in. order to take care of it as it cones along* I an glad, it is coming piecenoal. I an glad. we will have a chance to cone into one district and work it out thero. My feeling has always been that all those with licenses should bo given a few years of a licensee, and a full year or two of tino in which to porfoct an ap- peal, in order that, before they aro deprived of any property right, they nay have a full year. You realizo that, in the appeals on these' licenses, tho rogu^- lations have gotten out so late in tho spring that, by the , tine tho appeal is thru or perfected, the uso of the range is practically over with. That is duo to the fact that this is a now Act, that wo are setting up .machinery and operating it at tho sane tine. But, on tho permits, it is a serious-enough natter, I take it, that, after tho debate today, they r.ay recommend that thoro be a continuance of liceneos for a period of years, as an adjustment period, 'and ample time given to perfect all appeals. Now, I won't scare you to death. It is not so bad. , \7o aro not acquainted' with it, \7e have a first-hand acquaintance with liconsos. ffe feel pretty safe as long as they have tho sane ratings on it as they used to. t, Now, as I soo it, wo have worked close enough to what a permit is going to be«, * that the transition can be made without badly discommoding the industry.- The depondoncy of the property is going to bo of prime importance, and dependency, of courso, is a flexible word. As to how much importance a pioco of property v/ill bo given will depend on its conmonsurato value and how nnny it will support for the period it is necessary to support. Its dependency is not how dependent tho operator is on the public domain, but how dependent that particular land is en the public domain. Then wo have the word "near11. Then wo have a largo number of commensurate prop- erties, sufficient to exhaust tho carrying capacity of the range, under the con- struction that has been put on "noar" heretofore, those who aro nearest in the point of miles and accessibility will take it, up to tho full carrying capacity of the range, and those not so near will bo loft out. One district in Utah has made an attempt to put in practice tho "near" rule. They first made the rule 35 mil os from tho district. A nan cane to soo mo who lives 36JV miles from tho die-' trict. I said, "The Board could change their. rule to 36j nilos. Then there would immediately bo a nan living 37 nilos away who would protest." Soonor or later, to protoct.your ranges, you aro going to have to draw cone lino. . - 29 - If I Wkoro you are going to put "near", vriiat kind of construction you will put on it, is a natter you yourself will have to determine, and -you will not" "bo a"blo tOid<#- tormino it until you have the complete picture I have "boon with* this, -in the \ /adjudication of ranges:. Wo run in a rather snail arc, particularly the cow nan. 'Thoy don1 t. have the whole picture of a district, and none of us have the whole picture, of course, of the ten states. To make the richt uso of these public lan&Sf. and to sot up the right relationship "between the public and the private lands, it is going to ho necessary that you have a picture. That could ho gotten in two ways, as I see it. If wo had money enough, or ability enough* wo could toko you 'up in airplainoa and take you. out until you &-;t a look at all tho diffe- " rent properties, and all the different r.ovom.onts of livestock, and it would ho a narvolou3 chance to see the entire picture -That is not practical. Tho next "best is to reduce it to paper and get it on a nap, and wo are jotting naps. The comm.ittoo on rango inprovononts and the committee on range surveys will go" over to the place here where the drafting department is in operation. Tho so of you in Colorado havo prohaoly seen tho marvelous status nap gotten up "by tho forest service, which shows tho ownership of tho entiro state of Colorado, whether they arc owned "by tho county, tho stato or tho nation. If you can ipic- turo y'our own stato in that kind of nap, or your own district, and then super- impose on that picture tho carrying capacity of the puVlic lands* and the1 commen- surato value of the private lands, you would thon ami-each the question of saying what is the dependency rating of each pioco of private land, hocauso you would .:', pick out its relation to the range, and you would know what it had raised, and [i what its depondoncy was, and the determination of that dependency would he tho determination of tho permit. # : > I feel that we need havo no foar of stopping into, a dependency x>roposition. I cortainly would not liko to ho a participant in any land plan in which tho users did not havo a very loud voice in what went on, hocauso wisdom was not given to a few people. We have got to got it collectively, this way, and tho main trouble wo have is knowing exactly what wo are doing. Wo are jgoin&j now, to try and discuss a permit, as to what wo feel should ho Given the main emphasis, in those rules for permits, "because there is going to ho a set of rules worked out, and, if it is your wish, we can pursue the method we used on liconses. You will romomhor, whon we first approached the matter of li- censes, the trepidation with which the industry approached it was so great that, even when wo hold meetings in evory stato, and I went hack to Washington, and it ^ was all worked out and approVod "by tho Socrotary of the Interior, .still, .wo wore unwilling to have those license rulo3 until we camo hack and held four meetings in tho wost to 300 whether those rules would do for a preliminary sot-up, i Possibly tho rules for permits, onco drawn up, should ho circulated ,omo"ng tho hoards, should he discussed in some meetings, and possibly another national meet- ing. They are much more important than tho liconso rales. TTo want to know what • you think ahout permits, whether you are in a hurry to got there,' how you want to got there and what you think they, should ho when you arrive. You know' as much ahout this law as wo do. There is comparatively so little public range in regard to the private lands and water, that tho privileges practically tako tho range. I would he glad to get questions end suggestions from you men as to how you view this matter of drawing up either tho procoduro side of how wo should do it, or the side of what that should ho. MR, HcAJlTHURj • How much of this CCC work will tho rango users ho required to pay in the swoet hy^and-hy, I think, myself, the cattle men should pay for their own range improvements, hut wo certainly can* t afford to pay tho amount it is costing to build scenic roads and trails and get "by with tho cattle "business. We can!t do it. Do wo have to pay that hill? MR* CARPENTER; Mr. McArthur* a question is as to whether the cost of tho CCC camp will ho loviod against the stock men using tho ranges. My understanding is - that the CCC camps aro part of the omorgoncy sot-up that tho administration has put into off oct to help ond the depression and give employment and training to • - 30 - — 4+ i ^5? ' •• young non, and no part of that will "be recovered in a special assessment against any industry, that it will fall into the national debt and will "be paid out of . general taxes. So the stock non will pay no nore for the. work on the^.r :rangos than will the average person in general,, the average tax-payer in the United States. Does that answer your question? i MIU McARTHUR: Yes. I hope it will work out that way. MR. CARPENTER: I don't see any other way that it can work out. MR. A- R. TEWR , POST, ORE. (Oregon District No. 5): Do I understand that there will he no pernits issued, either temporary or otherwise, in any district, until there has he en a range survey made? MR. ' CARPENTER: Mr. Teater wishes to have it rcvctatttd as to whether there will he permits issued "before there is a complete range survey. Now, gentleman, there will not ho. If you will turn to your circular o£ May 1935, and your cir- cular of March 2, 1936, you will find stated in the preamble that these; licenses are issued to give us tine to make those surveys, and, until they aro complete, we can not go under pernits. You will find that these licenses aro not, issued under Section 3 of the Act, hut only under Section 2 of the Act, It would he un- fair to you, unfair to the Department, and to the industry, to try and go at this in a half-baked tray, and, withal, it may take several years. Y0u will find on your program the number of years estimated for your particular district, with our present facilities. The Department feels that they would rather not do anything until they can do it right. Does that answer your quostion.Mr.Teater? MR. TEATER: I think so. ■ ?r - • ' MR. MAX COHEN, IDAHO: I want to ask the question as to whether these per- mits will be inter changeable for sheep and cattle. . MR. CARPENTER*.' Pernits will; be interchangeable at the option of the owner of the permit, provided the change does not interfere with the other users of the range. MR. COHEN; Will that be governed by the local boards? MR. CARPENTER: Yes. ' In that case, the other users of the range will, of course, have a voice. • MR. STYLIAN STA.ES, UTAH: Since pernits are going to be for allotments, I wonder if we couldn't give every licensee a separate area undor a license and see how it would work. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Staes makes this very practical suggestion: that, whereas most permits are -based on an allotment, either individual er community, that, before pernits are issued , a trial and temporary license allotment be given in order that they can have a kind' of trial harness put on them, in the allotment business, to work under /for a year, before it becomes hardened into a permit. I would like to hear a discussion on that matter, if you have views on it. MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON, UTAH (Utah District No. l) : I don't believe it is the proper thing to do, to put that trial harness on until the survey has actually boen made. If you put the trial harness on,' and someone tries it out for a year or two, and then you come back and take one of the tugs awry from them, you might have some trouble." So, keep the harness off until you get the survoy completed, would bo my advice. MR. CARPENTER: The way I understood Mr, Staes suggestion, that, oven after we have all the data ready for permits, and the range survey' complete, then we should give just a trial allotment for one year. Would that meet with your ideas? MR. ADAMS: That answers it. If the Burvoy has boon completed, then it is all right. ■ - 31 - IK • ^ JIR. CARPENTER: In other words, if I properly understood Mr. Staos11 suggos- tion, it was that, even v/hen everything is collected, when we can assemble these boards and lay befdre then complete -naps, when we can agree with then on carrying capacities on every piece of land, when all that is done* still, "before the tern permits themselves issue, that a trial allotment "be nade, at least for a period of years, boforo the permit is gone into. I would like to know whether or notf- that meets with your favor, "because those suggestions, gentlemen, will probably "bo carried out, t I i ' I i MR. HAL HAMMILL, HOPE, N.M. (N.M. District No. 6): We feel that we have "been thru a trial period in the last two years, and that wo are -ready for term permits, and if wo could have something in the form of, say, 75 percent, for a ton-year "basis, loaving 25 per cent to take up the slack, it would give us something con- crete to go on. MR, CARPENTER: Mr. Hammill is from Nov/ Mexico, whore the range surveys are the most nearly completed, and whoro the question of "near" does not ontcr into the discussion. He says that he would like to have the permits issue up to a certain percent, and he suggests 75 per cent, that the Department hold 25 per cent slack in the temporary license method, for future adjudication, "because he says, for two years, they have "been temporizing along and they would liko to have it settled. MR. J. D. NOBLITT, COKEVILLE, WTO, (Wyo. District No- 4); For what reason? MR. HAMMILL: In our state, wo haven't had a great deal of troublo. Wo have 90 per cent satisfaction in our district, and the banks, and othor money loaning concerns, are talcing a "big intore3t in it, and that would "be the reason, for the "benefit of the stock men on that range, MR. CARPENTER: He has a vory different condition from what you have in Wyoming and Utah. They have had what 'amounted to .allotments in that state for many, years. As Mr, Hamnill says, 90 per cent of them are satisfied with this temporary set-up, and have "been for a period of yoars. So ho feels that, in his region, at least up to a certain percentage, as soon as naps are completo and ac- cepted, they are ready to go, MR. NOBLITTj Then it would seem to me we would have to approach this propo- sition from an angle that would take care of New Mexico on a different "basis than other states. Can we do that? MR. CARPENTER: Precisely so. That is the "beauty of a meeting liko this, that we can get group to ask for what it wants. That is the reason why wo have these meetings. If wo got shut up in Washington, we would only' see our "back yard. We have, represented in this room, every condition in the range states in the United Spates, and if they are all put into the record, they will all "bo consicU ered. MR. J. M. WILSON, SAFEORD, ARIZ. (Arizona District 4): We in Arizona have something of the same situation. District 4, as you will notice on the program, lias the field work completed. In our district, wo have some appeals pending. In, the majority of cases, however, we figure the thing is settled'. We have some appeal cases that are very light. Some have an allotmenb or community allotment. We feel it is more or loss settled. They have gone, so far as it has been autho- rized, to build fences. If wo go back and say we have got to issue temporary licenses for another year, they will say "Why?u Our ranges are divided on the nearness of water, as a rule. ' I would say 75 per cent is settled,, There is hardly any question of their boing re-opened. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Wilson lives at Safford, Arizona, and, down there, with tho cooperation of tho Soil Conservation people, we have mado a very completo rango survey, the most completo range survey in the United States. Tho condition down thoro is that tho wash and tho run-off from that soil has boon so groat that the Reclamation Service are in danger of losing some of their greatest roservoirs and so great sums of monoy have boon pourod into that region to make a completo survey of that range, to protect all of tho agriculture in that valley, that de- - 32 - iJ^Wfcn I '■ ■ * f ! ." . ponds on the ranees. . As a result, Mr. flilson is taLkins ahout rtiero « ey have a co-TPloto nrf. That is dqr h» feels as he. docs.. tfo can not take one rule and fit it ai over the United States. He has a different condition fron *at most of the dologate3 in the northern states have. HR.. O'KSILL, OTOMIHG: In case of sale of the stock and the land, are those permits transferrahle, and to what oxtent? ME. CARPE1W3R: The pomit will not transfer with the livestock at' all. The pornut or license will transfer only with tho-pernit, and there will he no cut on transfer. , U*>*~ . ME W. C. JOHES, WISE RIVEE, M0MT.ua (Montana District H0.5)s Supposing a case where a party is activo during the period of the co-ensurability, he has censurable* property and, at the tin. he qualifies under ^period of Priority rights, then ho hocor.es inactive during the licenso period. At the Mm the per- manent pernits are issued, if he doesn't set in, then is he required to hold his peace forever after, MR. CARPENTER: The question is, if a con is not stockod at the tine pernits are issued, whether he is out — is that it? *; MR* JONES J Yes. i , MR. CARPENTER* No. He can cot a non-use pcrnit and hold his rights. He need not "bo stocked-up at that tine. MR. JONES: How is that going to stabilize, the industry when these men have been licensed, to use this privilege, and he is cut off and this other nan cones in.. MR. CARPENTER: If it is necessary, in order to utilize the ranee* to issue sone temporary licenses, .to take up that slack for the period that na*,ijs oat, they will he issued, and also a reasonable restriction will he placed :on his cone-hack, so that he can't cone in in one jump. He nay have to cone m in two or three years. MR E. D. WILLIAMS, MINERSVILLE, ITCAH (Utah District Ho. 3): I v/ould just like to ask a question, inasnuch as you are on the subject of non-use, how long this non-use privilege will T» Granted. How long will they hold good for? MR. CARPENTER: I can't tell you that. That is sonething that you non will have to act on and reconnond. That night he different in different dis- tricts. But it will he reasonable. It will be for a reasonable period and under reasonable restrictions. MR. J. M. CONOVER, HEBRON, UTAH (Utah District Ho. 7): I think that these^ licenses and pernits are a very serious question. I don't think that one district should be held back on its pernits bocaus'e sonobody else is not up on their work. I think, as fast as any district is qualified and is ready for^a permit, that we ought to immediately give then these pernits, because it is going to establish the stock industry. They can get noney and go ahead and do something as soon as they get their pernits. I don't see why, if sone districts should be slow in getting their priorities and connensurato ratings worked out, sone other districts should bo hold back, MR- CARPENTER: It has always been the intention of the Department, as fast as we had a set of data, to go into that district with a pemit syston, even though districts around it night be on the license syston. Thoro is no intention to hold back any district when this data is ready, ffo have thought of setting up a trial district in sone state this coning year, and profiting by any nist alee s that we shall undoubtedly make, in order that ^7e can use it in other districts. That is an inducement to you to got in on the first district! MR. MARION LEE , THATCHER, ARIZ. (ARIZ. District. No. 4) : I rculd like to know, in Arizona District 4, if we are going to bo compelled to take the S. C. S. figures on the carrying capacity. - 33 - I MR. CARPENTER:. Mr. Leo raises a good, hot point. The Soil Conservation people have been in that district in Arizona and set the carrying capacity. Tne ... carrying capacity on the so-called crass, raises in Arizona, ^e have two types of ranges down there: arass range, and a ranp where they don't have grass, tat they just have an annual growth of weeds and cactus, and the large part of it is scenery. On that second part of the range, we have had a violent disagreement between the stock nen and those government me* who have estimated the carrying capacity of the range. How, Mr- Leo wants to know whether the stock nen are goirg to have to observe the carrying capacity of iron Zero to 2, tnax was placed on that range. This is the method of approach that has been worked out:. 'At the meeting of the chairmen in Washington, your chairman, Mr. Wilson, was there, and he Drought up the sane question you "brought up, and wo sent for Dr. Lowdomilk of the Soil Conservation Service. Mr. Wilson said there wero ten sections that ho know cows could get fat on, if thev would fence it off. I asked those fellows if they were willing to fence it off" and make an experiment, and, if the stock nen could prove by practical aencn- stration that, instead of carrying zero, or one, or two head to the section, it would keep several nore head, and still not deteriorate the land, that [that could he the final answer that the Government would have to accept, as well as tne stock nen. H0w, ny understanding is that they are fencing off ranges, on wnicn one area on this scenic range will hold no stock, one range will hold tne estimate of the stock nen, and one range will hold the estinato of the Government,! and that, after a few years, the stock nen themselves will ho invited to go out and look at those ranges and see which is proper. I know of no "better way to solve those difficulties. MR. LEE: I would like to know what we are .going to do in the meantime. MR. CARPENTER: That nan has a very practical and persistent hahit. (Laughter). We are going to do what -we have had to do in the past We are going to got along the hest we can by a compromise, and just wag along with this until we know surely what your carrying capacity is. Y0u probably won't get all the . stuff you want out there, and wo probably won't get all the cuts we feel aro proper, hut, in the nethod whereby the stock nen make recommendations and tne Department act on the recommendations, you probably won't ho hurt badly, and ye mil find a method of getting together until we get those facts definitely deter- nined "by actual experiment. I want to say this: We have not found any great difference in carrying capacity of the ranges, where we have a grass range., I an going to call on some New Mexico people that have had sone experience, going over these government estimates c-i carrying capacity. I wonder, Mr. Oliver Lee, if you could say sone thing to tne Steele nen on the capacities as found hy the range surveys, as 'to how they agreed with the stock nen's estimate of the range. Mr- ^eG c0-ies fron a district and a state where we have "been thru what you gentlemen will have to go thru m adjust- ing your practical experience with government surveys and data. MR. OLIVER M. LEE, ALAMO GORDO , HEW MEXICO. (Hew Mexico Grazing District No- 5): Ladies and Gentlemen, I have "been asked to answer a question that is just a little hard for me to answer, at this time. I rant to say this , that in general discussion with the men making the range surveys for the Department, I have found very little different in the estimate that they put on as to the carrying capacity and the estimates that the boards generally have found -~ so slight a difference that it is not material -- and in just a very few cases. I think that we are coming close to an agreement in nearly every ^9tri^ that has been classified up to the present time. That is my understanding. Now, I wart to say to you that that statement is made from general conversation with men doing the work and not from studyingthe actual data that they have gotten up. But that is my general impression and while on that question, we haye gone so far in some of those districts that we are now ready, I Relieve for the term permits. And in my opinion, it is very desirable that they oe issued at the present time. MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Lee.. - 34 - ■ " I •i "i . i . MR. J. J. BALLARD, MC DERMITT , NEVADA, (Oregon Grazing District No. 4): Ladies and gentlemen — MR. CARPENTER: Is this a question, Mr. Ballard? MR. BALLARD: Well, will be a little more than a question. MR. CARPENTER: Everybody wants to get a try at this mike., You cojne; on up. • ' MR. BALLARD: The only mike I ever stood before^before wasla *»-«•** Mike, and I came out second best It looks to me like we - ^£^°e ^^grant^er^ ^^ *££» I «« >~ ££* have to wait another three lonS years. Ever heard that before? (Laughter) And further than this, a suggestion has just been made fSf™ ££?£*' with the approval of Mr. Carpenter ^f^^^f^y^'J^ period giving us the permit which, we had hoped for *f ^^ that way it is Going of probation of several years. Now, it this tiunj, ", •, to be too late to do the present speaker any good. (Applause) you can't even get close to a banker without him asking you ^J"**^ l( stands, if you have one* No, I haven- 1 one -I ^^^nce that that thfit? Class 1 or 2 — whatever it may oe. nave yju ^y ao0 ^^•u. wan will he Sr^etuated? I can only say what 1, ndon said in hi. last speech. 'No man knows". (Laughter and applause) How, there are some things that ™^*™*J?£\g]£^£?$L . that the Judgment Day is going to be quite a busy «■* «* * *« £* t the rest of the delegation from Oregon. I thank you. ur MP ARTHUR* I have spent the last two years giving Mr. Carpenter hell , them. MR. BALLABD: I want to go this far ~ I ^^jT^V^ facts, extra period of probation on at a later date. As soon as we 6 let' s go ahead. j ■ MR. MC ARTHUR: That is all right with me. MR W. S. GINNERY, GUNNISON, COLORADO. (Colorado (Grazing District Ho. 3): that he is in a good deal better financial condition toto to maK with a greater security on these licenses, than he was beiore unae I believe another thing, that perhaps ^. ^^J^Z^l^Tts today when we are discussing this proposition of "°^e* «* ^ all just barely possible that Congress may decide, within ts wxsd ^ this grazing under one department, and Mr. Oarpenier, m=tter — I have be out of order for me to say that ^-onal -f^Xarlment , ** I Se^r:na7Sif sh^ldt unLftrSepartment of the Secretary of the Interior. (Hearty applause) home control, if you please, and I heliove it should extend ~ 35 ~ A year ago I urged upon this meeting that we get down to issuing permits as soon as possible. Even though last' year I asked for it , I am not worried so greatly about it at the present time. I feel that our people are becoming more and nore satisfied with the license period until all this investigation is made , because the boards are going to give this man the same that he had the year before when he falls in the right class today. The banker need have no uneasiness about making him the loan. In reference to priority, I think that is a big question and I want to say at this time we should be in one department, •• MR. CARPENTER: I might say you wouldn't find any difference in putting this in one department, either hero or Washington". MR. WHINKEHJT: A great many of us have made up our minds about that depart- ment, . ~~~^- MR. CARPENTER: I don't want to raise that question at "the present time. MR. E. S. GATMY, MOUNTAIN HOME, IDAHO. (Idaho Grazing District No. 1): r'e are at the time when we ought to have more stability in the livestock business. I was very gratified to hear you say that the Bill — the Taylor Bill — pro- vided for the stabilization of the livestock business. I was afraid you had overlooked that point in the law, in your seeming desire to stabilize the land values. '• Now, I feel that mistakes have been made in putting too much importance on rafifce rirhts and preferences in the lands, especially lands with no connection with the livestock business, and I rofer particularly to a lot of homesteads that the livestock men have been paying a nuisance fee to the homesteader on, to keep him still. Now, your Department is putting a prior right in those homesteads, which, I believe, is wrong, because the homestead value will be raised up until we can t keep it up any more. The stability should be put on now in the livestock business and, I believe, we are ready for the term permit in most states, but still, I believe, we should go slow enough so that we are certain we know what we are doing. In my four or five years experience there never has been a time when the livestock business was so unsettled as today. There. is no stability to it. The bankers are fearful. The men here are also afraid of what is going to happen, There is a roof of lear on the livestock business' today, and I think we can clear away this fear by issuing term permits. V believe we are ready for them, in order that we will know wnere we are going from here. The banker doesn't know, we don't know. We can't sell or buy. "There is no trad- ine in livestock or ' land because of this uncertainty, yet I say this, tnat wo should be careful. We don't want a permit like the Forest issued here for ten years, except that they reserved the right to reduce it for range control, they reserved the right to reduce it for transfer purposes and they reserved the right to cut the allotment. No man can run under those ten-year permits. But, llr. Carpenter, we are ready right now in all these districts for these term permits. What is there to be afraid of? Why are you fearful of this term permit? We want this term .permit to stabilize this livestock business, as it provides in this Taylor Bill. A man, who is a Basquo, came to me a year ago, and he said, "What this fellow Taylor going to do? I hear this Fellow Taylor going to take this range away, and I hear we all have to go just one little place over out of region. What the hell the matter with this fellow Bill Taylor?" Now, in my opinion, there isn't any- thing the matter with the Taylor Bill. If .there is. anything wrong it is in us, not knowing the facts, but I do believe that they know the facts well enough that by the next spring they can issue a permit, not a license, next spring. As to the question then of the length of time, I cannot say, oxcept as to the facts, but I can say that what we want is a ten-year permit and if next year is - 36 - • . the tine and we are ready, we want then because we want to know whore wg "are and what we are doing and where we go from hero. I thank you. JUDGE LERO'f H. COX, ST. GEORGfi , UTAH. (Arizonr Grazing District No. l): I "believe we should five some consideration to what the gentleman just d-iid. I "believe this, that we have the Department here with a handful of nu..n trying to make a survey in order that we may have the ten-year permit , and the livestock man has boon ignored. So far as tho cost and worry and anxity, that }ic tons had. Because 'the Department said, we have a handful of men to work ten years' tine. I believe the Department can do something b-' expediting these surveys and put- tin:;; on enough men. It would not cost any more to do it in one year than in three or ten years. / . MR. CARPENTER: Judge Cox has raised a /point that the program at present is not very fast with the existing personnel, and as long as these term "Permits are dependent on the proper data, we should get/ a larger personnel. I want to make ,a statement on that matter. We have a few 'men qualified to make range surveys. Everyone can't do it. It takes specific training and experience. There is, however, quite a little foot work and drafting work. We have asked that we use the emergency setup i — the C. C. C. camps — for what help they can give us. We have taken selected young men from the camps ■ — some of them highschtfol boys, some of them college* boys — we have riven them intensive courses in drafting and in working section lines for range/ surveys. We have three schools — one in Salt Lake — and the committee on Range Surveys, and the committee on Improve- ments will visit the drafting room tomorrow* We have another in Albuquerque and another in Reno. Likewise, we have in tho field a number of boys who a.ru learn- ing how to walk the section lines and make a careful estimate of the vegetation and palat ability . We are not waiting: and saying that we can't do our work because we need more appropriations. That is a hard word in Washington, Out at the Zoo, near Con- necticut Avenue, they have a bird there. Its tongue has been split so/it can say a few words. And whenever a visitor . comes to town, they take him out to Connecticut Avenue to hear this bird, and these are the four words he sayst "What about the appropriation, what about the appropriation, what about the appropriation?" It is customary for all Government people to holler about the appropriation. We have tried not to do it. It is true, as Judge Cox says , and- wc have made a frank estimate to you on the sheet in your program, on when we figured the work will be completed with the trained men and men we are train- ing, but it will take some time. Any questions? MR. W. C. JONES, WISE RIVER, MOTITAHA. (Montana Grazing District No. 5.): We have had no range survey J but have had some experience with the range con- servation men and from what I can learn — well, recently we have had somo ex-'1 perienco with these fellows in the range conservation program and from our ex-^i perience with these fellows, we would be a lot better off if we had never had any conservation survey. They run all the way from the absurd to the ridiculous. MR. CARPE3TIER: They say frank expressions are good for tho soul, is. true, this gentleman's soul is in pretty good shape. If that MR. JOIIES: Referring to Mr. Gatny's speech, in which he emphasized we are read;/ for term permits. I gather we are ready to those we know are qualified. What will we do with the other fellows? MR. CAHPE1TTER: I want to say in defense of Mr. Gatny. He is a new man and I find the older men are more cautious. I remember last year a great many of you were not so cautious, but you have found that no matter which way you jump you hurt somebody. The . longer you are on the boards, the more carefully you will move. The Department is ready to go whenever you give the word. MR. GATFf: CanH these boards grant one man r permit for one year, tho same as they grant a license for one year, and then the other fellow who )ms the dependent commensurate property — they can grant him a pormit for ten years? It will al'.7cays be the same — there will be n few men in each district who can't qualify, but give them a permit for one year. Then you can immediately go to a bank and if you can talk about a Permit, that is a '.-hole lot greater thnn talk- ing about a license — and it is greater in the trading and transfer of livestock. - 37 - 4g» — ^* ' ■ i , -wm*m-*v . mwmm^ Now, in our district, there are a few men who are not qualified at this time to qualify for a ten-year period. Give them a smaller permit. We can make mistakes and we can correct them. What harm is there going to he if we do give somebody a permit who does not deserve it. We can take it away from him later, but the actual "bona fide livestock "businessman is entitled to this stability of this permit. MR. CARPETER: Mr, G-atny suggests that we go immediately into is suing.! term permits to some and not to others. MR. W. B. MATHIS, ST. GEORGE, UTAH, (Arizona Grazing District No, l) Si I would like to speak as a "banker and a "board member. I think that the bankers are not nearljr as badly worried over their loans now as they were before: any permits were issued — - pardon me, I mean licenses. I think they are more con- cerned that their patrons see they go into this carefully and get something they can depend on, then to rush into it. For my part we are willing to move along pretty well as the Department thinks best and if the date is here and the De- partment is ready to issue permits to those who are ready and have the informa- tion and data to guarantee these permits, then it is all right with me. MR. R. J. CCFWAY, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 6): I have been listening to these boys talk about permits and I have been thinking and I will say something if you will lot me. I don't believe you could issue a permit until you have all the data 'to work out the carrying capacity. We' must wait to get this data. We admit , the da,ta might not be correct. All right then, do it this way. Issue permits — term permits -- when we get this data, but confine it to three years and then we can perfect this data and then I say probably we would be ready to issue ten-year or seven-year permits. Why can't it be done along this line. MR. CARPENTER? We now have three suggestions, one is the suggestion that Mr. Conway just made that we issue term permits for three years until we get the data perfected and then issue ten-year permits. Mr. Mathi's thinks we should go carefully and not issue permits until we are ready to issue them on all the data obtainable, Mr. Gatny thinks we should issue permits right away, and then gather the data. Some say three years, some say one year, and someday issue permits up to 75$.- Probably each one of them would fit some particular part of the country and after this discussion is given hero today before the state meetings it will be of value for that purpose, MR. P. W. SPAULDING, WYOMING: Sitting in the back of the room and looking at the number of men here, it seems to me that there is some knowledge among our advisory board members of what the range really will carry. A knowledge, I be- lieve, sufficient to issue the permits, if and when those who are '.being given in- tensive training in the C. C. C. camps, turn in the data. Then we can make a pro rata adjustment. But it seems to me there is some knowledge among the mem- bers of the Advisory Boards at this time to issue permits. MR. CARPBNTUR: Yes, I agree with Mr. Spaulding, and I wish to say that the men from New Mexico will probably vouch for it. When those range surveys are made they will be laid before the Board and they will be asked whether the Board thinks they are correct. They will bring in all they found in the field and ask the Boards, are those correct. In general, there has been no disagreement, as Mr. Lee has said. I see Mb Brownfield — MR. A. D, BROWNFIELD, FLORIDA, NEW MEXKfO. (^ew Mexico Grazing District No. 3): Mr. Carpenter, may I say — \ MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Brownfield. is chairman in his district, and this is a man who has been through it all in this, if anybody has. MR, BROWNFIELD: Under the licenses granted we have been concerned only with the lands they have customarily used. Now, ccrung out of the license-period to the permit period, or granting the allotment s , you are more concerned with es- tablishing the linos — the dividing lines between the ranches. In our state we -- 38 - ' have teen told 'that some 90$ of the ranchers have agreed upon these lines and for that reason wo say that we are read:/ for the permit. One year, three years, or ten years, wo are 90$ ready for nermits. We, for the sake of aiding the Division of Grazing and 'Mr.' Carpenter, .are asking for 75$ and holding in reserve for their -benefit and future developments this 25$, and for that reason we -be- lieve that each and every one on advisory "boards and our apportioned time for making the allotments and recommendations — then ycu will find it very easy to make your recommendations for the term permits. MR. CARPENTER: As our time is rolling on, I. want to introduce a new topic, because we wish to cover all of these topics so there' will "be some generaVback- ground for each state committee to work on tomorrow morning and the national com- mittees to work on tomorrow afternoon. We will take up railroad and wagon road checkerboard lands. This public domain wasn't made in blocks, but when the Government gave grants to railroads, it was scattered out and a number of grants made. The railroads were p-iven alternate sections bocause Oongraaa did not wish to create any great in- terests. Thev gave every other section there because they were supposed tb sell it and develop little homes. Practically all of that country that could be sold or rented has been done so. Some has been used as public domain. It will be of interest to know that in the state, of Nevada, where the largest amounts are •there, with the railroad having the most public lands, the Southern Pacific Land Company, I think has some four and one-half million acres of land, part in Idaho and Ut'ah, although this same land takes in some land preference in New Mexico, Arizona and Montana, and is a wagon grant in Oregon. The most, however, is in Nevada. ' I 1 We met with the representatives of the Southern Pacific Land Company and we agreed on a cooperative contract to use nine of the railroad company's owned lands end the Government lards together, and the applicant for the lands will meet and they would a£ree that if 'a man did not have a priority or dependent commensurate property, he would not get on the Government lands in between. Congress says that those who had the ri£ht to use the Government lands should be able to use the railroad lands in part. Now, I don't know whether that contract has been finally approved or not, but when it has been, it will be followed by an .order for the Regional Grazier to work out the particular allotments, fhere are, I believe, about 150 in Nevada to be worked out. The method used in Idaho in working out isolated tracts is as follows: There were some 125 isolated tracts that could not be handled on a regular range opera- tion. Our representative in Idaho went to the town near the tract and as-ed all the inhabitants to adjust their difficulties and they wore told if they didn t, it would be done for them. When you get right out on the land you have less difficulty in settling matters. The result' in that it was worked out in Idaho. There were over a hundred, practically all 'were fixed up with allotments and no •appeals. This is a matter for this meetings and other meetings to consider. If there was nobody in Nevada, we could easily say, well you take the south and we will take the north, or you take the land north of the railroad and we will take the south. That would be just as fair for the railroad as for the Govern- ment , but with all those ranches out there, we can't do that, and we have to go into a huddle and working this out on this track. But we have a precedent now, - We have authority in Section 9 and we are going to start in working out Parti- cular allotments in Nevada. This agreement was put up to two boards in Nevada, oven the. terms drafted and received their approval by the Boards before it was taken out to Washington and they considered the checkerboard lands in Nevada, Idaho and Utah. We have already worked out a situation similar to this in District 1 in Utah -~ a similar situation, which wa3 successful. 39 - When we come to the state land, I feel like askin£ the people i rem Arizona and . No- Mexico to pardon me. State land is one thins up here and another tnin, down there. In Utah four sections oi every township was given to the school, and is Dart of their reliable, substantial setup. Here those four sections lie where they wore granted originally, fundamentally, 9C* of them are not leased in Utah. This is a serious situation. We are in n,: ,t:i ,U.nwith the State Land Board here and the Utah Cattle Growers Association and trying to rent those lands and the Government will later purchase those leases and then handle them in a -businesslike kind of way* tfe have the wagon grant situation in Oregon nnd wo have the state laws' in Oregon and all of the northern states. I want to devote just a little time to this to let you know what is bein^ done and I will now open that topic lor any discuss- ions or question you dosire. 'We have touched on the subject of licenses, the subject of permits, the subject of ranGe surveys, isolated tracts, railroad and wagon grants, state lands, and checkerboard lands. We have a number of other topics loft. I have an announcement to make that Utah District Ho. 3 will meet on the Roof Garden of the Hotel Utah at 7:3C - all users of the ranajo in that district are invited to attend. On the Roof Garden of the Hotel Utrh at 7:30 p.m. "I am going to leave the matter of foes and finances until last, because when we get on it, we don't want to be cut off by any other irrelevant macters. On the matter of stock driveways there have been a larre number of entrances which have beer abandoned and have reverted to nubile domain lands. In general, cur rule has been to follow the advice and suction of the advisory board in such matters. And a large number of stock driveways heretofore established and found, not to be in accord with the uses, have been abandoned. Any questions on s t o ckdr i v eway s . MR. WAOT3 GARDNER, ST. GEORGE, UTAH. (Utah Grazinr District Ho. 4)!: The exchange of privately owned lands that come over the driveways. -In Washing- ton last summer;" they authorized us to go ahead and make those changes, if there was some form of assurance, something worked out by the Department , the part ieo could Go to the individuals and assure them that, in due tin- there would be a deed or something in the way of , transfer, then we could t*;o ahead and use the e lands. In our particular area, we 30 for 60 miles or more over a lot of pnvaoe lands. Made trades .and exchanges to make possible that driveway, but we haven't any forms or any legal matter that wo inn go ahead and make exefcan^oj to the satisfaction of private land holders. What can we do? MR.- CAJRFBITTSR: I suggest that you get the circular from "the land office, which covers land exchanges, and in that you will find a form of application for an exchange, then each nan will have to file his application for exchange. It will then be forwarded to the Department and come back to the Board for recom- mendation, and then be acted upon. The General Land Office here in the Federal Building will have those circulars for distribution. MR. WHINtfSRY: Just one question, Mr. Carponter, on that same line. In a case where a man is given an allotment, and they happen to have 640 acres that is not in, and they want to make exchange of.it,. should we follow the same pro- cedure there? MR. CMP3HE3R: If you expect to change the title on it. Are there any other questions on stock driveways or trails. In the matter of allotments, at- tention has been called to the fact that, several tines during the meeting, I have mentioned a completed range survey. That is only a name to most of you. Mr. Molohon, who has- char g» of range surveys, informs no that no wiU put up a picture of the actual comploted ranr-;c survey of a district in ITcv; M0xico, and ho will have it u-o on exhibition here in this room. In the committee on range sur- veys, he is GoinS to take thorn ovor and show them what a completed ran^e survey looks like, and Friday morning, and possibly Thursday evening ho will havo on display here, cither on the mezzanine floor cr in this room, the completed 100?o map 'of a district. It vail bo of groat interest to you to see that. « 40 - ' \ i :' II \'\ ' | •' ' The o s sontif.il 'features of the nap arc -the sane;' the carrypg capacity of each 40 aero tract and the eonnensurrtte ratings of .all private properties aro sl-^v/n, and it shows how tho allotment is made.. It nay not all "be in ono "block. It fclvos; you a very interesting picture, and they 'will ho put up 0:1 tho Board for your in- spection. Are there any" questions on this natter of allotments? MR* ALIDERSON, UTAH: Gentlemen, on the question of allocation or range ,we call oursolvos tho stop-children from Idaho and TJtali, in Nevada District lip. 1. I think we have "beaten the rest of you to that question, We have alroady re- ceived an allotnent, First we objected to it. We attempted to, and wo thought we would, provo that we had usod considerable noro of the. range in our private operations for years. The Advisory Board would like to get -rid of us, and maybe 1 couldn't "blame then so, nuch. ( I think, maybe wo would do tho sane, if wo had tho cane power, "but we haven1 1.' Now, then, they allot us about 40 percent of the rouse that wo have formerly "boen using* It has already "been done. ,Sone of our sheep ncn fron other districts say, "They can't do t that J" But they have done it. W0 can1 t graze there. What are wo going to do?' That question looks to ne like it is "being prematurely handled "by some districts. I took the trouble of getting some data on what results this has already "brought about. SBhroo of our nen, operating about a hand of sheep, 2500 head of owes perhaps, each, stayed "back voluntarily and "bought hay. Two of our nen were forced to stay "back by their financial backers. ^ They .would not risk their money on a band of sheep that would have to be fed with the other sheep on that snail amount of land. Three of them were forced to liquidate. Twenty-two of us are going to tackle' it. Wo think that such premature action on the allocation of the range should be stopped. The board advised us to appeal. All right, they will do that, but an appeal is slow, We cannot winter there. ■ We have nevsr confined our operations to a small area, We think they should go more carefully, I thank you. , . . it \. \ MR. CARPENTER; I am glad in the matter of allotments, that if they are step-children, they have such an able advocate, . I MR. R. J. CONWAY, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado 'Crazing District No. 6): Mr. Anderson, if you got your allotment, the other fellow — would that cut down on his rights? MR. ANDERSON: They did not give us an equal break. - We do not want to bo set aside* MR, J. M. MC EARLANE, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2): I think the most important . question before us toclay is the question of allot- ments and we have had more complaints come' in from people who are pacing foes and receiving nothing. Now, the- feel if they are go in- to get any fruits of any sort, some part of the range must be set out so they will know what they aro going to have, I don1 1 care whether you call it a license or a permit ~* just so they have some range. The cattle men are willing to pay for what they get, but they want to be sure they get it. But they won't get it until we fix the allotments. In district 2 we have allotments, but no enforcement and I don't believe any range survey is complete until you have made the allotments and tried them out. The allotments represent the practical part and if wo are going to do anything with the Taylor Bill we should have allotments and have them right away. (Applause) MR. CARPENTER: It is plain all tho cowboys are applauding on that. MR, MORONI A. SMITH, SALT LAICE CITY, UTAH.' (Utah Grazing. District No. 8): I don't understand how you can make an allotment arrangement unless it is very short and very temporary. They always have to get the same man to make the investigation. Up to tho present time all the advisory boards that I have had an,V contact .with, come fellow fi.aired that if he could get there first, he Y.'ov-.ld be fixed up. The other fellow wouldn't got in. The boards have attempted to make allotments without notifying the other licensees grazing there. And some fellow ,-et thoir allotments and the board has at t otto ted to give -them allotments \ - 41 - and "hey can make them, hut can they enforce them? I think that lioaU order. ?h. hoards are «orklne teo fait J when they make these allotment ■ without substan- tial investigation. Every license should have a modlfyine order. That is impor- tant to each and evezy licensee on the district. And we must have a heUor setup in order to make them work, • i MR. S. C. HYATT, HYATTVILLE , WYOMING. (Wyoming Grazing District No. 1): In figuring out the pro rata range as used, as a commensurate radius, I think a year lease would he ahout right. How will we go on a term allotment on a year oasis? ,. , . : , ' i ■ MR. GAEPEMR: I don't see how a term permit can he hased on a less number of years than the term permit. ., If the hase is. transferred a part of the permit would follow with it. . , The question of enforcement was "brought up by Mr. Mac Far lane, ^st year we worked it with a range rider. That led to legal difficulties, O^^ast prob- lem-is the interstate movement hetwoen November 1st and December lbth, and this year the four states were divided into four regions, Special! enforcement offi- . cials were appointed nnd given a right to hire helpers in the 'program. I would like to hear from you grazing men on your enforcement this fall. Any suggestions about it or comments on it? '..<•:. \ MR. ELMER KING, TEASDALE , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District 1T.mtlomen fed a similar situation and we allowed five sections, hetv.-oeri the sheofrnen^ and the cattlemen s allotments. • . , ' '■ / ' < MR. CARPENTER: I think, Mr. Atkin, that we can work this along similar lines, giving a larger allotment to the sheep interest a^nd^ln order to take care of the drift that oan*t /be prevented at /this time. And that is what our hoards are for, gentlemen, at this -time. ; '{■/■■ ■' ■ —j\-; j - ... -..«■- ■'■■•■ , f i ....<■ w^-ft'jf .i.u .■! -p'!IPiVPffiiipiPPMpl MB. J. A. TARTER, REISER, IDAHO (Idaho District tfo.l):" In Idaho Ho. 1, wo have made aor.o 45 or 50 individual 'allotments in tho checkerboard land. Get the fellows to £0 right out on tho land and made somo 45 or 50 private allotments on tho checkerboard land, and I don't believe there has "boon a single appeal on those allotments. In a very cases, vrhoro tho fellows couldn't agroo on the allot- ments, tho Board handled it for then* i MR. CARPSiTTER: jlhat, gontlemon, comes from tho district in Idaho, where I nontionod tho Regional Grazier was successful in working out individual allotments in which v;o have had no appeals, and Mr. Tarter is just giving us evidence to substantiate what was stated her. I am very clad to hoar from him, because I have not had an opportunity to see those this year, but J have heard about then,1 and I thin!: it is a big nark to tho credit of that Board and that Rogional Grazior, the way they have handled that situation. MR, IT. H. MEEKER, GTOTIS01I, COLO. (Colorado District N0. 3)| I do not know what the experience of tho others lias boon in the ratter of this enforcement, but we in our area in Colorado 3, endeavor to protoct some of tho scalier users of tho range. Many of tho users wore honost in their endoavor to gather the stock, but a certain percentage, very snail percentage in licensees, but perhaps a larger percentage in livo stock, absolutoly and uttorly disregarded the fact that their licenses had expired. I fool that you can make allotnonts. I. feel that you can carry your Taylor Grazing Act completely thru, you can take up every subject here, and unless you can enforce them, our sot-up is entirely too lame. MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Rose is in charge of your enforcement, isn't ho? MR. MEEKER; Yes. MR. CARPENTER; Has ho taken any steps to remedy that situation? MR. MEEKER; Mr. Rose lias boon up thoro several times, hit, with the limited personnel that Grand Junction has apparently had, to got them on tho job at the time that we neod them, it seoms almost impossible. Some of the people fool tho penalty under the Taylor Grazing 'Act is too sovoro. .They feel that tho Boards may bo a little slow in enforcing tho $500 — I believe it is — ponalty of tho Grazing Act. Wo had, as you recognize, under our laid law, under adjudicated lands, somo rocourse. As I understand from our attorneys, wo now have no re- course. XIq hpvo not boon able to got nearly tho work done, and it is said that it is lack of porsonnol. If that is tho sot-up, canft wo add -t- oven though appropriations are hard to got *— can't we add enough to properly enforce this Act? The big mail up there lias takon the feed from tho little fellow, tho fellow whom I believe was to have been protected undor tho Taylor Grazing Act. MR. CARPElJTERi I am glad to hoar of that instanco. I am sorry, of course, to hear of any failure in any spot, but I want to know whether there has beon a general failure. ApO there more spots lacking enforcement? Lot's hoar from it. tfo are all hero togother and we are not afraid to face thorn. MR. PAULEY, UTAH; I would like to ask the man who has beon so successful in their allotments, if they have had a rango survey. MR. TARTER; Ho, thoro lia3,not boon a range survey, The men who wore di- rectly interested in this fight are. tho regional graziers, Every man around there had an application for whatever righto ho thought he had, and he was noti- fiod of the time and place of the mooting, and ho figured he had a right to ap- pear, and ho presented his case, and, in every instanco, it was takon caro of. MR. CARPENTER; Are thoro any more complaints .on lack of enforcement? VOICE: I can't soo anjr use in waiting for surveys if, in tho most success- ful allotment, that has not .boon done. Somo of thoso districts won't have tho rango surveys until 1934. That i0 n, long while. I can't soo any use of waiting for these rango surveys, when tho most successful allotmont wo have had has boon gotten up without it. . '^ - 43 - ..-- rrrrr MR. J. A. WILCCXSON, DoBSqpS, COLO. (Colo. District ITo.l): I would like to say a word ahout Colorado No. 1. in regard to tho enforcement officers. ;ffe have had some very successful mon, I think, working in our district. A lot of tho sheep nncl cattle have boon cut off "by tho Board and were not allowed liconsos. These mon, a lot of than, had planned to go on the winter range without a license and take tho rait tor up with the courts, and these noil interceded to stop the:;, and told then that they were not allowed on tho rango, and they stopped a groat nany of then, and it was much easier to stop then from going on the rango than to remove then when they were on. I think it has. saved a lot of litigation, and caused people that had no license to take a different view of, it, and I think they havo done a wonderful wQrk in Colorado No. 1. \ i MR. ffAYNS GARDN3R, ST. G20RGE, UTAH (Utah District No. 4): Just 'when should tho Department of Investigation ho called in? I think we appreciate tile pen in the Department of Investigation. Ti\ey are beginning to soo the situation. Buu I dorJt appreciate it when a Department of Investigation ram Wants to count my nerd without any warning from tho Grazing Dopartmont, when I an notified that the De- partment of Instigation wants to count my outfit. It seems that there should be at least warning from the ' Department of Interior before the E.iy nan comes out. MR, CAaPi^raSR: His hord count od out all right; I know that. MR. GARDH3R: flhy should a group of sheepmen, "because some cattle man makes a report, why should they come out and count us without some notice from the De- partment, If the sheoFJon ror>ortod to tho cattle men, would it ho fair, witnout any warning at all, for -the O.I. man to come and ask that they he Counted. Tne men who havo counted hove, "boon gontlomen in ovory respect. Ti-.oy have been very considerate, "but it seems that tho, D.I. ran, coming without any warning at all, without any consideration of what it was all about, was not appreciated.' MR. CARPBNTER: Our gonera! rulo is not 'to 'call on" the D.I. until our own ' enforcement officers have- failed and wo aro trying to got a report case to take ^ to court. In some cases, reports got in 'and tho investigations are made kind oi "short-cuttod", hut it isn't our intention to ;do that, and that is the first com- plaint I have heard of such a matter. ., J.1R. JOHN l/EEDLIN, HARPER, CK3. (Oregon District N0.3)j VJlion wo got our set- up over there, called District 3, wo cut it up into six. units. tfe had our sot- up there, and it was cut up into six districts — units, rather ~ and the sheep men and the cow men began to talk about .allotments, Mr. Klemmo is our grazier over there and he came down and told us it was our duty to sit down together and talk it over and divide it up,' The sheep men and the cow men load aoout tnroo ' meetings, and we divided it up there, ovory unit that we had, in from throe to fivo community allotments. In my particular allotment that I run in --^eli, , and one other sheepman, we asked them' if they wanted to make an individual allot- ment for tho sheep and they said, "No, we want to run together", and today wc • are satisfied; wo have our community allotments. C^r line *• are there. We don't pay much attontion to tho linos as far as the oattle are concerned, hut wo aro run- ning more stock. * In regard to our law enforcement, wo havo a rider thoroVand our sheepmen have all stayed where they heloiv:, with the exception of one or^tewo this pring. 77* have a few cattle men that have a littlo drift out, hut they .are trying to ,>t them in as near as they can, and I don«t think we could have any better law en- forcement than wo havo got, It soomc to mo like, as far as these allotments aro concerned, if tho sheep men and. the cow men will go home and sit down among themselves, and figure out what is right for each other, they don't. need to cone to tho Department of the Interior- to ask then to allot it for thorn. TAey can allot it themselves. And that is tho proper way to get it allotted. MR, CARPD1ITER; • I wish that had been a radio broadcast, when ho said tint all the shoop mon stayed where they should. I would -like the world to havc^eard him. Cn tho matter of improvements, by tho way. V/o haven* t hoard muoh from ^o- gon, but we were glad to hoar that kind of report. Do you realize there has been several million dollars spent on these ranges in tho last few years? Wo nave Hi 44 - ■r j -' just mcV'od- down to where we are using a certain part of the foes for ranee im- provements. So I am going to open up tho subject of foes and finances in connec- tion with ranee improvements, We will spend a little tire on range improvements ' and then we will go into the subject of foes and finances and savo some short time for legislation. Of every dollar of grazing foe that is _ An .- . I NPUPI -3 rove of this way of doing; T^oro srafl 3ono sentiment that wo should overspend our ar.ount , oncl go in for a deficiency appropriation. I just have nevor prac- ticod Liy ov/n business that way, and I just could nover approvo of it. And wo aro one division that lias a littlo something loft ovor at the ond of the year. \7o bay oo subject to criticisn for not doing as r.;uch, "but ug will have something loft over at tho ond of tho year. Coming to tho subject of foes, you will romombor, last yoar, foos wore set at fivo conts per head per nonth for cattlo and one cent per head per r:.onth for •sheep. Tiaat fee has been for all of tho ton states, without any; differences. In the past year, they have had a bad drouth in oastorn Montana. \ The eastern Monona, and M0ntona districts, all but No; 4 in Central linntanay applied for a rebate of tho foes, which was granted by the Department. T^at is the orly re- bate that lias been appliod for, and that has boon .made this yoar) with the ,^_ exception of an application which oama from Nevada. M0st of tho Ifoos in Novada are hold up by litigation, a restraining order koopin;; tho Doparttient from col- lect k\£ the foes, so tho foos thoro. have bo-, n paid into court .and \ will bo hold pending tho legislation, will oh has been pas sod, on tho ground that the fee is unreasonable, bocauso it is a flat feu for all parts of tho range and based on tho fact that there is no authority to issue a feo under liconsos, which come under Section 2. That is, of course for the courts to say. Your fees and finances committee, whon they neot, will go ovor finances, and I feol, before it is taken up by states, we should have 3one general discussion here as to whether such a foe was satisfactory, and as to its method of payment by installments, or whether it was too much or to*, littlo, or what you think about It. So wo will open tho subjoct of fees. MR, NOBLITT, TT/OKIiTG; Districts Wo. 3, 4 and 5 in tf--oning are just boing. completed, as I understand it. Plans aro to /bo proparod to issue licenses for grazing baginning May 1, 1937,, 'on thoso throonow districts. I want to abfclMr. Carpenter if wo will not be porr.itted to ope/rato our first year without the pay- ment of any fees. That is, tho first year under license, 12 months from tho first of noxt Hay. .•., \\ j ",.,. . "•,.■'. ■..." ' •' MR. CARPENTER: That is the -method, Mr. Noblitt, that was followed in all other districts. Tho first year ; of oporation no fee was charged. Will these new districts have one year with no fees? I would like to hear the sentiment of these district advisors in this matter. I have nevor had the question raised before. . MR. E. L. JAMESON, KINGMAN, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 2); Maren 1936 was our first beginning and the first dav of July 1936 we paid up to January 1, 1937. If there is such a rule as that we have never heard of it. I have to say no member of our district has made any particular protest of any fee* and wo feel we have our money's worth in the way of protections -..,..• \ " / "J MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Noblitt , could you hear Mr. Jameson? / MR. NOBLITTj However, up in Wyoming we were under tho impression that it has been tho practice of char ging. no fee for tho first yenrNinder license. Of course, we would like to have that extended' to usi MR, J. V. TAYLOR, CARRI20Z0, NEW i.GXICC, (New Mexico Grazing District No. 4): I would like to know if the gentleman did not have tho use of the grass this year when tho rest of them wero paying for nothing MR. CARPENTER;. Mr. Noblitt, this is kind' of. a tough crowd. MR. .NOBLITT; Ve have all been having the grass and we aro all willing to ,, pay for it when we have an organization and know what we ore doingt - 48 - I — 1 MR. D. F. HUDSON, LANDER, WYOMING. (Wyoming Grazing District No. 2): It has heen generally understood in our part of the state that -re would have the use' of the ranee without paying the fees the first yoar after the district was setup. All the stockmon in our district have mot us halfway in regard to the feeding of grass and we have had very little grass or water there and in the future if we have to pay for this ranee and have no more grass than we have now, the thing is certri nly a failure. ' » ■ MR. CARPENTER: A very frank expression from Mr. -Hudson. • MR. ED MAHAEFEY, GRAND VALLEY, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 3): The gentlemen have the advantage of our experimental stage that' the other states have come through, When we were going into that experimental stage we did not charge a fee. It is no experiment with you men in Wyoming. You are getting .he advantage of the experimental stage that we have gone through, and you also have the advantage of the grass the last few years. And along that line, from what I saw of the Dig fat cattle from looming, you must have had hotter grass than we had, too. • (Applause) i i MR. HUDSON: The cattle and sheep come out of other districts into ours. In District No. 2 in Wyoming they have como out of District 1. We don't know what to do with them. That is where our grass wont. If fat cattle came from Wyoming they didn't come from District No. 2. MR. CARPENTER: There are no fat cattle when we talk ahout fees, we all agree to that. * MR. E. C. VAUGHN, BAKER, OREGON, • (Oregon Grazing District No. 6): We wore organized in November 7, 1935, and we paid our 1936 dues and assessments in our district. MR. CARPENTER: Organized November , .1935, and paid 1936 dues. No further argument than that. MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON ,• UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l) J District No. 1, Utah, was organized and we made our owns rules and regulations. The other twenty-five or twenty-six districts did not tell District 1 what to do. I don t believe it is the proper thing for the other districts to tell the advisory board of Wyoming what to do with their profits. . I think it is entirely out of place for the advisory "boards to say whether Wyoming is guilty or not guilty. That is a question between doming and the Department. (Applause) MR. CARPENTER: ■ Mr. Adams suggested it is out of place, but he tells them anyway. MR. MC ARTHUR: I wanted to ask if that state isn't part of the United States Government and to say that my tenant and I have an agreement and are glad to pay • those fees. • Br those fees we are taking care -of the. range, and we spend part of the fees taking care of the range. We are willing to double the present fees if jit would get the grass "back, • MR. CARPENTER; I am listoning for applause on that. (Applause) • Leaving then the question of these new districts, let us open r~ VOICE: I noted that in his statement in regard to those fees, his tenant is paying them, not he, himself, « . MR... JOHN MC MURRAY, OAKLEY \ IDAHO. - (Idaho Grazing District No. 2): In our district we expect the first year, to operate without any fees. \We offer no apology for it and if neoessary we will give reasons why, • \ - 49 ~ MR. C-iRPENTER: Another one of the new districts, and he joina with the^ new districts from Wyoming.. Are there any questions or discussion on the divi- sion of foes? 1 1 • MR. J. PERKINS, OVERTON, NEVADA. (Nevada Grazing District No, 5): Why is it the fees should go to the state legislatures and not to the maintenance of the raneo itself? She object of the Grazing Act is to perpetuate and improve the ranso and I think it would he no more than fair that seventy-five percent of those fees should go hack into the range for its improvement and that would give any stockman a "break for his money. MR, CARPENTER: The reason, Mr. Perkins, is th^.t Congress said that half the fees should go to the State legislatures diroct. In Nevada the state1 legis- lature has directed that hack to you. So that you people in Nevada there al- ready have seventy-five percent. The other states need to do most of the squal- ling.. MR. JOHN DAVENPORT. (New Mexico Grazing District No. 2-a) : We have a new district and we do not think we should pay any fees. If we pay these fees, do we set any extra service? MR. CARPENTER? They wish to join with the other new districts and then he asks: "If we pay those fees, do we get any extra Service?" Does he got any ^ additional grass for the fee? No, sir, the conditions will he the same. MR. DAVENPORT: I meant protection, . MR. CARPENTER: Neither additional grass, water or protection. You will got the same service. MR. GEORGE GOSE. (New Mexico Grazing District No., 2~b): We are a new district and we are all willing to pay.. (Applause) MR. HYATT:- Last year in Wyoming 1 we paid for it. We,paid our fees, most of them, and I will say" we "are mighty thankful for the Taylor Act and for the. protection we received and the little fee that we paid has heon repaid many times. ' (Applause) MR. CARPENTER: That is quite a statement from Wyoming, if you were here last year. What about fees for 1937. Everybody seems to want to raise them. MR. G. M. TIERNEY, CEDARVILLE , CALIFORNIA. (Nevada Grazing District NO. 2); All of the new grazing districts should pay a fee, then we can hold the fees down. We were all supposed to pay a fee last year. We came in in November and paid for last year. What is, the matter with these new districts in not wanting to pay a fee? MR. CONWAY: I would like to ask if in 1937 the present grazing foes will be the same. And if they can't .pay them, we might do a little better. We nught increase them. And I move — MR. CARPENTER: ■■ • „ . , mv • We are not interested in motions at this time., mis ib • a general discussion to assist -in the state discussions tomorrow. The Committee on 'fees and finances will bring in a resolution as to applicability to new dis- tricts. I MR. O'NEILL of WYOMING:- I don't understand how anybody could make a motion to increase the price on this, because no sheep or cattle men haVe made any money in the last five years. I know it couldn't be done in the^last two years to make any money with your livestock. MR. CARPENTER;. Mr. O'lioill has only left the goat men and the horse men to support the national. Government-* - 50 - MR. FRANK MEANS, SAGUACHE , COLORADO . (Colorado Grating District No. 3): I sincerely hope that the fees for 1937 will not "be raised. We are in a predica- ment in Colorado. We were too slow on the trigger ^d. tne county commissioners and school found got away with all the money and we would like to have an oppor- tunity to ask our legislature to get the funds diverted to the proper place, and if we now increase them, and the Colorado legislature, which is as greedy as any, gets a hold of an increased fee, well, that would nerve as another source of revenue, and I think we also ought to get it hack. I recollect in looking over my papers of my file in 1906, when we paid $0.10 per head three entire seasons on a cow. It got up to $1*00 a head in that came district and I will state this, if we are going to increase these fees, the first thing wo know we will have the fees in this organization comparable to the fees charged by the Forest Service — always on the increase and never on the decrease without a great deal of argument and trouble. No, I don't think wo should increase fees until we see where we are. MR, BALLARD, I would like to ask at this time if the Department contem- plates a raise in the fees?. ,* '."':' ' «■ ** MR. CARPENTER: The Department has taken no stand on that position* They are waiting for a recommendation from this body.of men before thoy take any action. I MR. GEDDES of NEVADA: Nevada is already in the ur.fortunate position of having asked too much, "but we feel that we have a legitimate "basis for asking that the fees in Nevada he not set at the same rate as thoso.'set in the better grazing areas of some other states.. It takes two'years to raise one lamb and twelve pounds of wool in our state. We feel that .we have a legitimate argument and that the*e fees should be sot by stntes, rather than by the country as a whole. . MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Geddes thinks that these fees should not be uniformly levied, but should take into consideration the character of the ranges, i ■ME. SMITH of ARIZONA: , Relative to the grazing fees, most of the states up state have not made this wh'ole 50$* Your advisory boards might not get it. Let. us, before we even consider tho raising of any fee, lot us go back to our legislatures and get this put back in the advisory board, and then when we find out that. there is at least more than 25$ coming back to us and 25^ to the De- partment of the Interior, and then we can talk about the raising of fees, but not now. . • MR. WRIGHT of NEVADA: What steps have been taken by the Department to fix or determine if the proposed 1937 grazing fee is reasonable? MR. CARPENTER;1 No particular steps have been made, Mr. Wright, in that res- pect at all. It has just been left hero to be discussod and ,th.e recommendation that came last year was regardea as a reasonable recommendation of a reasonable fee. \ MR. WEIGHT: What steps havo been taken by .the Department tq determine whether this fee is reasonable to apply uniformly to each area within the same state? • I MR. CARPENTER: As to the fees, no one in tho Department has \ ever consider- ed thoy were anvthing but reasonable. That matter has never been 'discussed or brought up. But we welcome discussion and I am sure that any point of view will bo given every consideration by the Department. MR. WRIGHT: When and where did you fix and determine whether this fee should be made? • j MR. .CARPENTER: The Department considers it was made out hero in/Salt Lake, here last year. i MR WRIGHT: No one back in Washington f/'ixed that? CI MR., CARPENTER: No, no one at all. No grazing "back in Washington. They, * never think about it. • MR. MO MURRAY of IDAHO: I under stand that the fee was* set by the stockmen here? MR. CARPENTER; Yes. MR. MC MURRAY: I have asked them a number of times and they have told me it was fixed toy Mr. Carpenter or the Secretary of the Interior, MR. CARPENTER: Well, if you had been here last year you would have known how it started. MR. MO MURRAY: I am talking about cutting it until we get proper adjust- ment. (Applause) When the receipts come in for the districts — there is another chance for a tax. I think we ought to appeal to our Congress to amend the Taylor Bill to see if we can't get this money back from the legislature. You must be more prosperous than us in Idaho until we get proper distribution of funds. MR. KING: I believe this experimental stage of the grazing department could be very detrimental duo to the condition of the livestock at the present time and the Department men are not getting much benefit from the grazxng lands. Until the lands are distributed and they have some grass to sell, I object to a raise in fees. At this time I realize we are not getting any grass for the money. MR. CARPENTER: You would want to be the judge of the grass, wouldn't you, Mr. King? MR. KING: I would leave that up to the stockmen. MR. STAJ3S: The only thing I have to say on the fees is not to increase the fees ~ that is, not to raise them. Do not raise them for the benefit of the livestock business. In all the states where you get all this money back to the livestock men, that is going to be for the benefit of the stockmen. If you raise the fees by the state as a whole, but if we can't for the benefit of all, we want to graze to improve the conditions of the livestock business. We don t want to have the fees increased at this time. MR. CARPENTER: Do I state it right when I say, united we stand against a raise in fees? MR. P. J. BRATTAIN, PAISLEY, OREGON. (Oregon Grazing District; No. 2); In listening to these arguments here and the question has been raised several times about the disposition of this grazing fee that takes the circle around to the state legislature, around to the county and finally back to the advisory board. I can't see why wo can't take a short cut here. Why can't our advisory "boards and stockmen prevail upon our congressmen to enact a law or amend that law so that seventy-five nercent of our fee goes direct to the advisory board for dis- position on the range and the remaining twenty-five percent to the Government. We pay a tax on our livestock and we also pay a tax on our real estate — why the different tax? MR, CARPENTER: Gentlemen, it is a little past five now. Tomorrow morn- ing at 9:00 you will assemble by state committees. If you do not know the room, you can ask at the information desk* We would like to have all state committees 'assemble at 9:00, All district advisors are urged to come to that meeting and each state committee will meet until noon. After they have discussed these sub- jects they will olect two members of the nationa} committee on each of the six big tonics and then those men will meet at 2:00 in this building at rooms designated. Then Friday, the assembly will moot again in this room at 9:00 and the committees will make reports and will bo diocucnod on the floor and voted on. No one will speak or vote Friday except district advisors without the un- animous consent of the house. At that time the vote will bo taken and ii ~ 52 t requested, an individual poll will be taken by districts, by the delegates voting from the districts. MR. PETER HENRICHS, YERINGTON, NEVADA. (Nevada Grazing District No. 3): Any of these people that are interested in that Nevada Law about the transfer- ring of the money, I will be glad to make them a copy. • J MR. CARPENTER: We have copied that law and it is on ^he program. MR. HENRI CHS: Thank you* (The meeting was adjourned at 5:15 p.m.) . ■ ■•■. ■ ■ .;■ . . - ' ;' ■'. ■ , * i : i " ■ • i -■ ', - 53 - • PPJ ■ DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION Salt Lake City, Utah December 9, 10 and 11, 1936 . , * THIRD DAY Morning Session (Meeting called to order at 9:00 aTm, , December 11, 1936, in the Lafayette Ballroom, Hotel Utah, Salt Inke City, Utah). MR. CARPENTER; Gentlemen, if you will find your seats we will open the meeting. The order of "business this morning; will "be to hear the reports of the national committees, and as wo call the committees, ask the. chairmen of the com- mittees to come forward and I wish he would leave a copy of the resolutions in front of the desk on the platform here. We will consider the reading as a motion for adoption and then the matter will be thrown apon for discussion "by the advisors only.* The vote will be taken by voice and in case of division in the vote, any delegate or advisor oresent asking to have the assembly polled, we will take the poll as follows! Beginning /alpha- betically with Arizona, we will call each district, and the chairman of that district, if he is present, or someone else delegated "by him to be the spokesman, will announce how the four votes go. If only one man is present he will vote the four votes. If more than four men are present, each will take his fractional vote. New Mexico has roquosted to vote their six districts altogether on all topics, so with the consent of the assembly, the chairman of the New Mexico delegation will simply give the twenty-four (24) votes from New Moxico. Are there any questions as to the procedure before we call for the reports? If not, I will ask the chairman of the Committee on Licenses, if he will come for- ward and leave a copy of the resolutions on the desk. If you will please come forward and read your resolutions to us, Yes, I see the chairman here, Mr* Williams, if you will come forward a3 Chairman of the Committee on Licenses, Have you an extra copy of your resolutions you can leave on the desk? MR. E. D, WILLIAMS, MINERSVILLE , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 3): Gentlemen, I haven't had time to overlook our report, which was' submitted yestor- day by the committee on licenses. We had some considerable discussion within our meeting, and we did not arrive at all of the ideas unanimously, nevertheless we are going to present to'y°u. thbso ideas that we did finally conform to and leave it up for your consideration. Motion made by Mr. Hay of Wyoming, and seconded by — the name is not mentioned — that: It be resolved by the National Committee on Licenses that the determination of the priority rule be left. to the Advisory Boards of each district of the several states, (Applause) I want to make a brief statement there, gentlemen, that we were so far apart upon ^he problem of priority that we could not get together on the priority period, therefore, we decided to leave it up to the different states to settle their own priority. We felt that the different states had so manv opinions and conditions to work upon that we finally deoided the different states, should settle their own priority rule. ~ 64 r- , , ' WT*-*' 11 H11-1^. f u^iRui.i^i^p^Pf^^w^P^ffiipp^fl . Motion made fcy Mr. Hyatt of Wyoming and seconded by Mr. Adams of Utah that the National Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a time as the several Advisory Boards feel that , they have reasonable knowledge on which to issue permits > Carried unanimously. Motion made by Mr. Gland of Colorado and seconded V Mr. Seeley of Utah, Resolved by the National Committee on licenses that trie "Proposed New Interpretation o. Preferences under The Taylor Act" be accepted in issuing licenses in 1937. Carried unanimously. . ■Now, we have cne or two motions that wore made here that were defeated. If you would like to hear them, I will read them to you. If not, I will just, submit the motions and resolutions to our Director aud pass them as they were given. What is your pleasure in that re^rd? (Audience signified that they did not wish to hear the' defeated motions), Mr, Chairman, I move the adoption of the Committee report. . MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Williams. Is it your pleasure to take these up. separately and discuss them or' take the report as a whole? VOICE: I move that we take them up separately. VOICE: I second the motion. MR. CARPENTER: The motion is made and seconded that these resolutions from the National Committee en Licenses be taken up separately and discussed and I take it you mean to. have them voted on separately. Any discussion on that motion. Are you ready for the question? (Calls for question). V_^ All those in favor of the motion that the resolutions of the National Committee on Licenses be taken up, discussed and voted on separately, all those in favor sign- ify by raying aye. 'Contrary - no.. The ayes have it. Accordingly, I will read the first part of the resolution. , The first resolution is as follows:. . "That U be resolved by the National Commites ' on Licenses that the determination of the priority rule be left to the Advisory •Boards of each district of the several states". Is there any discussion on that ? MR. J. L, NISLSCN, FOUNTAIN GRJJSN , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2): I am not in favor of that, I think ^e will have too much discrepancy — run- ning from six months tc ten years. .Mr. Williams stated that the conditions are so different. .1 do not think there can be any different in the matter oi prior- ity in any district. I think the Department should have set that in the begin- ning. Hew could their have been any difference in priority. I am opposed to the resolution. I believe we should get somewhere together, should set a minimum and a maximum to come i» between those too lines. I am opposed to the resolution. 7e MR. AIM FINDLAY, KAKAB , UTAH. substitute motion in order? (Arizona Grazing District No. l); Is a ■MR. CARPENTER: Yes,. sir, that is always proper. MR. FINDLAY: Gentlemen of the convention, I move that the priority had in all districts bo June 27, 1954. , MR. CARPENTER: A motion that a substitute resolution be offered in which the priority date bo set at June 28th, (l presume you mean June 28tn, instead of June 27th, as that was the date of the passage of the Taylor Act), has been made ■ Do I hear a second to that motion? MR. EDGAR ERAY, RED VALE , COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 4): I second it-. - 55 - ! MR. CARPENTER: Is there any discussion on that substitute motion? MR. BEATS I am as much interested as anybody in having a long priority, but the idea is this. This Taylor Bill is a national law and the priorities to my mind are going to ha,v© to be the same in all the districts. That is, if tho lav; is to. stand up in the Court. How, as to the time of the priority. Anybody knows, that will stop to .think, that the man on the range when that Taylor Bill was passed has a priority. Here is what I would like to see. I think Frank Means brought it out yesterday in the Colorado delegation. The older your priority the better your right. (Applause) If you had been there ten years, you are absolutely established and they can't kick you out. However, if you were on the ground when that Taylor Bill was pass- ed you have some rights, but the man on there /one year does not have the right that the man on there two or three or four ye^rs has. But, if we are to avoid litigation, let us make a rule that will hold water. If our rules are going to stand up in court, let us make them right. It is absolu- tely ridiculous for one state to have one year and another state next to it has ten years. Let us have, the older the priority the better. Let us have the date the bill was passed as the prioritv date. MR. J. M. SMITH, CENTRAL, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 4): Ii rise to a point of order. V7e have a motion before the house that we adopt the recommendation of the committee. The latter motion has not been voted down. The first motion is still before the house, Amend it, but I don't think you: can substitute it. * ! MR. CARPENTER: The point is well taken. If tho man that offered the1 first motion cares to amend it — i A MR. EINDLAY: I understand, Mr. 'Carpenter, that you ruled — MR. CARPENTER: I have reversed my ruling and it will have to bo offered as an amendment and discussed before the amendment is voted on, MR. FINDLAY: I move to amend the priority date to be considered as June 28, 1934. MR. CARPENTER: Instead of putting it in a motion, the amendment is proper and before the house. Any discussion on the amendment? Are you ready for the question? The question you -are now voting on is, whether the resolutions that the Resolution Committee made', that the priority date should be left to the sep-^ arate district boards of the states, or whether tho amendment, which is that it should not bo left to the states, but set as the date of the passage of tho Act ,f» in all districts in the ten western states, should be accepted. MR, V. \7. BRCT.7N, OGDEN , UTAH. (Nevada Grazing District No. 1): I mako a motion that we poll by individual votes instead of by districts. MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Brown has made a point of order, that we vote by person instead of districts. I wish to say that we do not have a list of the delegates here. Each district will poll. VTe do not have a complete list of all the lole- gates and I could not poll by individuals. Also, in my opening remarks I stated that we would poll by districts at tho request of any one individual. The Chair will rule that motion out of order for that reason. The question is to amend tho original motion and make a uniform rule of priority. All those in favor of the motion, signify by saving Aya« Those opposed - No. Tho No's have it. The amendment is not carried. TCe now continue the discussion of the original motion. The original motion was: "That it be resolved by the National Commit toe on Licenses that the determination of the priority rule be left to the Advisory Boards of each district of the several states". All those in favor signify by saying Are* Contrary - No. The Ayes have it. The motion is carried. - 56 - TT *T|[PJPf^*f The second resolution is as follows: "That the National Committee favor .a De- partment policy in issuing licenses until such a time as the several Advisory Boards fool that they have reasonable knowledge on which to issue permit a". To I hear any discussion on that point? Are you ready for the question? All those in favor of the second resolution, which is: "That the National Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a. time as the several Advisory Boards foel that they have reasonable knowledge on which to issue licenses — MR. J". D. NOBLITT, COIOTILLE, TWO. : (Wyo. Grazing Ti strict 3To, 4): j., Mr. Chairman, I think you used the word "licerises" instead of "permit s . • MR, CARP3NT3R: I will read it again then, Mr, N0blitt. "That the National Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a time, as tne several Advisory Boards feol that they have reasonable knowledge on whicn to is- sue permits." MR. NOBLITT: T^at is correct. MR. CARPSNTER: Are you ready for the question? All those in favor of the resolution, signify by saying'Ayo. Those opposed, go. The .Ayes Jiave it. The mo- tion is carried. The third resolution is as follows: "Resolved by the National Committee on , Licenses that the 'Proposed Now Interpretation of Preferences under The xaylor Act1 he acceptod in issuing licenses in 1937." \ I will read that again: "Resolved ,hy the National Committee on licenses that the 'Proposed New Interpretation of Preferences under the Taylor Act he accepted in issuing licenses in 1937." I'll as* -someone on that- committee what the ^Proposed New Interpretation1 is, because. this refers to a proposed new interpretation. MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. ^airman, some of the rales that the Department got off regarding priority. MR. CARPSNT3R: I will read those New Interpretations for you. "The proposed changes in the Grazing Regulations to carry these provisions into effect are to substitute the following for Pago 2 of the Rul/es of Ma. .^,1936, to wit: .— "A qualified applicant will be considered in k preferred classification if ho is a membor of any one of the following four classes: (1) Landowners engaged in the livestock business. (2) Bono, fide occupants. (3) Bona fide settlors. (4) Owners of water of water rights. "The following definitions will assist in determining who belongs in said classes: "A landowner must be in "the livestock business" and not simply ".an owner of live- stock. An occupant to be bona fide must show that ho actually occupies land to the exclusion of others for at least the period for which such land is subject to grazing Such exclusive occupation may be by fencing or otherwise excluding trespassers, Posting notices unaccompanied by actual possession, or part time , seasonal use by grazing livestock, will not be considered occupancy. Any land claimed to be occupied must bo held under a right such as to entitle the applicant to possession. Lands to which the applicant has no lawful right of occupation cannot be made the basis of a claim of bona fide occupation. (The last sentence abo^ may also bo stated as follows: Occupancy of lands to which there is no law- ful right cannot be bona fide.) I "A bona fide settler is one who maintains actual residence under lawful authority on the land to the exclusion of a rosiclenoe olsowhere. An owner of water of w^ter rights must show that it is for stock water purposes and held under proper author- ity from the state. Qualified preferred applicants will bo given licenses to graze the available public range insofar as necessary to give a proper use to the. lands, wator or water rights owned, occupied or leased by them. "In determining what such proper use is, the following definitions will guide: - o( - — mp* »^w^_ , . • * hi I' i - "Property - shall consiot of land and its products or stock wator owned or •* controlled and used according to local custom in livostock operations. Such prop- • orty is: ; .(a) Dependent if public range is required to maintain its proper use.; (b) Hoar if it is close enough to "bo used in connection with public range in usual and customary livestock operations. In caso tho public range is inadequate for all the near properties, then those which are nearest in distance and acc0s3ib.il it}' to tho public range shall be given preference over those not so near. (c) Commensurate for a license for a certain number of livostock if such property provides proper protection according to local custom for 3aid livestock during the period for which tho public range is inadequate, , • . I "Qualified applicants who besides being preferred, as above sot forth, also havo grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall have such privileges safe- guarded by being given consideration before such applicants who do not hayelsuch grazing privileges. : • I ' "Grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall be called priority of use, which is defined as follows; * "Priority of use - is such use of the public rahgo before June 29, 1934, as tho Secretary of the Interior, or his administrative officers, by reference to local customs, statutes, decisions of the courts", or other compotent sources of evidence, may find to havo been recognized and acknowl edged as a propor uso of both tho pub- lic range .and the lands or water used in connection therewith. "Issuance of licenses - after rosidents within or immediately adjacent to a graz- ing district having dependent commensurate property are provided with range for not to exceed ten (10) head of work or milch stock kept for domestic purposes, the following named classes, in tho order named, will be considered for licenses: ;. 1, Qualified applicants of the preferred class who also havo priority of uso, to an extent not to exceed such priority of use or commensu- rate rating. S 2. Qualified applicants of the preferred class who do not have priority of uso, to an extent not to exceed their commensurate rating. 3. Qualified applicants who aro not in the preferred class." I will say, in general explanation, gentlemen, this is' simply a clarification of tho Pules of March 2. It does not amount to a very material change of the Pule3 of March 2. I believe tho committee gave some thought and study and considera- tion to that. Is that correct, Mr. Williams? MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, we wont over each and every one of these problems and discussed them pro and con and finally arrived at the resolutions presented. - 58 - MR. 17HIMBRY, GUNNISON, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 3): I would like to ask if they carefully checked the water right question. It seems to me that there was a little difference there in readin.; that resolution than- there was "before* It is one of the vital things we are particularly interested in in Colorado. . \ i , I ! ii MR. CARPENTER: I will read the definition of property again then, Mr, { tfhinnory. "Property shall consist of land and its products or stock watejr owned or controlled and used according to local custom in livestock operations." That 'MR. FINDLAY: I would like i' water could he commensurate ike to know, Mr. Carpenter, how under your definition — under your definition of commensurability? MR. CARPENTER: The definition of commensurability is:' »I;J such property (that would he land or water) provides proper protection according to local cus- tom for said livestock during the period for which the public range is inade- quat e . " / V MR. FINDLAY: Under "C" — under propertv, is what I had~referonco to. MR. CARPENTER: "Property is commensurate for a license according to local custom for said livestock" — is that what yon meant, Mr. Findlay? If you have water that will provide protection for livestock for the period for which the public range is inadequate, then your property is commensurate. In the South that definition does not equally fit in with thoso conditions. MR. FINDLAY: In that case, Mr. Carpenter, how can you give the owner of water priority over the owner of land? , '■ MR.. CARPENTER: You cannot. The owner of land and the owner of water stand together. In New Mexico and Arizona if you do not have water, no matter 'what land holdings you have, you cannot get a license. MR. EINDLAY: In Arizona it all depends on water. MR. CARPENTER: The understanding on those southern ranges is that water is the primary factor. I believo that rule has boon accented "in Now Mexico and with some qualifications in other places, where the feed arrangement does not enter into the picture. - 59 - ,iG practically the same. . \ \\ , \ ; MR. tfHINNERY: That seems to he the same. \ \ MR. CARPENTER: Yes, sir. Any further questions? Aro you ready for the - question? i i MR, WILLIAMS! In discussing that we had a feeling, some of us, that we had better accept the definition 'rather than debate it and "ball" it up more. We suggest that in the future those rules should not bo sent out to the advisop , I boards prior to their adoption nt the meeting here. ■:;!.'"'.-■ ' / MR. CARPENTER: In an extended clarification of rules like that, that was not really a rule, but a clarification of the Rules of March 2. I may say* that this clarification of rules was worked out vefy carefully by a Committee, then submitted to the Department and then again taken up by the Committee. / MR. J. E. JENSEN, MORONI, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2): I would like to have the definition of a mari in the livestock business and one who owns livestock. • / MR. CARPENTER: He- wants to know the clpf inition ct£ a man in the livestock business and one who owns livestock — a man who owns oiis cow or sheep is the owner of livestock and it in possible to any hn is in the livestock business to a certain extent for such a small amount. . But, although the amount may bo very , small, if he depends upon the income, derivod from that stock he is then — he is in the livestock business. It is conceivable that a man with one cow could be in the livestock business. It is distinction without being a difference, , ~ _m MR* WHINNERY: Another question on water. Are there any possibilities that if this rule goes through that our irrigation water does not count? MR. CARPENTER: No, the definition says water used in livestock operations, Water U3ed for irrigation purposes, if used for livestock operations would "bo considered as commensurate, "but if used only for watering fields would not be considered. Do I make that plain? Such part of irrigation water as is diverted and used for the support of livestock would be. considered water in the terms of this Act. Purchase or rental of water is considered as control. Is thatjcor- rect of what has -been done in New Mexico? That has been my understanding all along. MR. WHINNERY: water priority? Does that bring up stock ownor priority or the owner of the MR. CARPENTER: Range rights go with water, the same as they do with the land, Mr. Whinnery. MR. GILMER: I think for the sake of clearing these records as to votes, we should poll these votes. MR. CARPENTER; The Chair stated that at the request of any one man, 't would poll the assembly. I will accept the voice vote otherwise. MR. GILMER; You poll by mass first? MR. CARPENTER: Yes, I will call for a voice vote first, and if it is over- whelming I will declare the motion carried. But anyone has a right to ask to have the vote polled and ,it will be polled immediately by districts. Are you ready for the question? All thoso in favor say Aye- those contrary - No. The Ayes have it. I believe those are all the motions of the committee on licenses. Is that correct , Mr, Williams'? c I will ask the Chairman of the Committee on Permits to come forward. Leave a copy on the desk. Otherwise, come forward and read those resolutions. •MR.' A. D. BROWNFIELD, FLORIDA, NEW MEXICO. (New Mexico Grazing District No. 3): Friends, it looked like' war might break out any minute. Wo finally settled down and emerged without any bruises. We considered first, and had a very able explanation by Mr.. Kerr, on the difference between licenses and permits. And the provision for licenses first under Section 2 and then permits under Section 3 of the Act. We discussed v/hether the setup necessary in ordor to have the • qualifications of the permittee should be altered, and we decided to leave that as it is. Then preferences 1 — the same, that is moaning to say> the citizens and the state authorized corporations. Third, the newer clause, and that one a great many overlooked the McCarren amend- ment to the act, meaning that if the setup is under mortgage at the expiration of the license period, the Government is to be held to issue a permit. And the duration of the permit may be from one year up to ten years. Ten 'years is the maximum and that is left in the beginning to the Divisioi. of Grazing, whether in the beginning the permits will be from one year, two, or more. 1 The permits and the priority brought about the major part of the discussion and there seemed to be a great deal of uneasiness in the minds of those in our com- mittee and a great deal seemed to interpret, oven though Mr. Kerr gave us a very full explanation as to what would happen when we go on the permit system, that the word "priority" goes" out of the picture. They thought if that happened, we had better stay in the license period. Yet , we are making an effort to go forward and we decided we wanted to got on permits as soon as possible. The word "uso" in Section 3 of the Act, whore grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall be adequately safeguarded, was construed to bo your protection. Any ranch unit properly setup and/ going, their commensurate property was adequately safeguarded. 1 / ~ 60 - _J#fc- ^^ ■|CT^TWP5P5|iW|iPi i ! -.1 ! There was a good deal of uneasiness then about property- developed subsequent to the Act. Would the individual developing a bose land, developing his water, get! a right... The committee decided that that piece of property could not bo .inter- preted as commensurate. Then there was another arrangement entered into and that wan the so-called home- steaders. Are the nen who "bought a tax title to a piece of land that had not been opened for years, had not had any use, but at the time new improvements placed in the way of more development and water, could that land get a right and would it be classed as commensurate property? The Committee felt that, H now, if I get off wrong — there was so much said, there was so many talking several times and we only came out with one resolution ~~ I may not got it quite right and if I do not, I sincerely hope you will correct me because I am trying to interpret the meaning of what I understood you meant and what was not reduced to writing. 1 i i Then, to get back to the subject. This piece of property that bad had water developed on it prior to the Act and had been used prior to the priority of use date, that was fixed in issuing licenses would be rated as commensurate property and carried a right. Then, wo got down to the problem of the degree of dependency of commensurate nroeerty and that is what I have just finished saying as to how to rate commen- surate base ^rooerty over another. In allocating public range to individuals, of use of individuals to amend the allotments and. I see no way to decide on that . except to leave it to the Advisory Boards, because they are the only ones who really know how your property and my property ranks in use and water developed and those other ratings which are necessary to decide upon. Shall I read this resolution? ME. CARPENTER: Yes, sir. MR. BROWHFIELD; Now, we brought out only one resolution and in order to '-stabilize the industrv, and we all felt that a permit had more stability than a license, particularly with, the loan corporations and that a fellow could mort- gage his entire setup, and that is subject to all rights carried with property. The individual is left out when we get on permits and are dealing with the lands - the commensurate property only. So, wo leave you this resolution: RESOLVED that the Division of Grazing issue term permits upon recommendation of the Advisory Board in the District affected, which shall includo_ seventy-five percert of the allotment recommended .for any ranch unit or range setup in pro- portion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the twenty- five per- cent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a temporary license until such time as the Range Survey program is completed. MR. CARPENTER: Would you please read this resolution again, Mr, Brownfield? MR. BROWNFIELD: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term permits upon recommendation of the Advisory Board in the Distrct affected, which shall include seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any- ranch unit or range setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a temporary license until such time as the Range Survey Program is completed. MR. JONES: I wou will be at the discret or will they all have t'o be issued? Id like to inquire whon these permits are issued if they ion of the boards. Can the boards use their discretion MR. CARPENTER: Was it your intention that all be considered? MR. BROWNTIELD: I think whon a number of ranch units are in a position to go on a permit arrangement ; that they should be permitted to do so. / . ' - 61 - MR« CARPENTER: Whether the survey had been completed .f or the entire dis- trict or not. Seventy-five -oercent term perfaits can be issued on any part of the district when they start in to issue thorn on recommendation of the district board. Is that correct, Mr. Brownfield? MR. BROWNFIELD: Yes. MR. CARPENTER: Is it your pleasure to rote 0:1 this resolution? i : '■• "VOICE; I make that motion. , • ! • VOICE: I second it. MR. CARPENTER: The motion is made and seconded that this resolution of the Committee on Permits: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term permits u"non recommendation of the Advisory Board in the District affected, which shall include seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any ranch unit or range setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a temporary license until such time as the Range Survey program is completed", be adopted as re-.d. ..... All those in favor say Aye - contrary ~ No, The Ayes have it. I' ■ MR. FINDLAY: I would like a vote on that by district. MR. CARPENTER: Before polling by districts, I am going to read the resolu- tion again. "RESOLVED that the Division of Grazing issue term permits upon rec- ommendation of the Advisory Board in the District affected; which shall include seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any ranch unit or range, tf setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a tem- porary license until such time as the Range Survey program is completed." Is that correct , Mr. Brownfield? MR. BROWNFIELD: Yes. MR. S. J. WTATT, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 6): How can you get down to a term permit basis before the capacity of the range has been determined. Too many pitfalls in that. MR. J. M. WILSON, SAFFORD, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 4): The last words, "the Range Survey program is completed" do 1 understand that to mean if you have an allotment sunder consideration. That is a little vague. MR. CARPENTER: The range survey program referred to is a complete checkup on all of the dependent properties near the district, a complete gauge of the carrying capacity of the public lands within the district, a complete working out of whatever allotments of lands found advisable to make. You cannot get away from this, that permits and allotments are Beared into together. MR. JONES: Until the range survey was completed, what kind of permits would bo given? MR. CARPENTER: Under this resoluti-on it would be up to seventy-five Per- cent of the allotment recommended for any ranch setup, MR. FINDLAY: It seems to me the resolution puts authority on the advisory boards so that if they felt that the allotments were not complete, so that the .term permit will be granted. MR. JONES: I don't think you got me quite clear. The question that I raised was the way I under r.tand it, that this seventy-five percent is to be permanent and the twenty-five percent temporary to any man who has a permit issued to him. Not seventy-five percent left over of the applicants. Is this 62 tt — 2r^— . n • ' ' ^■wppp ■ / "board going to "be allowed to issue permits fco one or two in that district and leave the others on a license system ', or will they have to consider all the applicants as permittees? MR. VTYATT: I do not like that resolution. Every advisory board in this reom knows there are too many pitfalls ahead.- Unless you get the capacity ' first. The Division of Grazing rill .be put in a bad position. There will be turmoil. I • MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l) : It s"eems '• to mo that where you issue seventy-five percent of the stock allotted to ]one ,,i man in one part of the district, before the range is completely survived, that someone on the other part of the district is -not going to be issued a license. I think there are too many pitfalls, like the gentleman from Colorado said, V7ait until the general survey has been made. MR. CARPENTER} Do you wish to offer an amendment to this resolution, Mr. Adams ? . • " • • I MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir, that permits be granted them on the ratio of the1 carrying capacity of the range, when the range has "been surveyed. MR. CARPENTER; The amendment has been offered to this resolution to the effect that, I will re-state it, that permits be only issued after the range surveys are completed. MR. ADAMS: That is correct. MR. CARPENTER: That is stating it simply. 'Do I hear a second? MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: The motion.haG carried and announced b5r the chairman as carried and the gentleman has asked a pnll from the house. I think the amend- ment is out of order until that motion is taken care of. i MR. WHINNERY; I think you ruled on that. MR. CARPENTER: We failed to carry out the poll because the discussion came on then, ftoes the maker of the motion for the poll want a discussion now or the poll. MR. EINDLAY: The discussion is what I want. MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: If some of the gentlemen who voted for the motion want to make a motion to re-consider the motion and the house wishes to re- consider, then you can re-open it for the house. But you have declared the motion carried. This gentleman has asked for a poll.. You said the motion was carried. Now, we have got to have a poll or somebody who voted for the motion will have to ask to have it re-oonsidered. MR. CARPENTER; I am going to ask for the discussion to consider and then we will vote over again. All those in favor say Aye - contrary - No. The .Ayes have it - the motion is carried. The motion is carried and we will vote later on the amendment to it. . MR. SMITH of ARIZONA.: I have no desire to get technical here, but I think we should proceed orderly, and ap a man who voted for the motion, I make a motion that we move for re-consideration. KIR. FINDLAY: I maintain the motion was not carried, It was only carried conditionally. I make a motion for a poll and it is not carried until it is carried completely* MR. CARPENTER: I thought wo were going to learn range rights, but we are going to learn parliamentary law. - 63 - ■ • iA^jA — >^- ^v.*A. ■ ■ fr i MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: As you will find out, after the chair has called for a vote on a motion and that motion has teen announced as carried, that closes the motion. This gentlemen has asked for a poll of the house. There was no more debate on that and if the poll carries tho motion again, there- is no way to re- open the question again. MR. WYATT: In order to expedite matters ,. would it "be in order to make a motion that this other motion "bo rescinded? j, ; MR. CARPEKTER: I think we will stay away frcm any more motions. Tho chair will rule that the motion is not yet carried until the poll shows the motion lost or made, and all discussion will pertain to the amendment and as soon as the discussion is over we will proceed' on the amendment.. The amendment offered was that permits he not issued until tho range surveys have heen completed. ■ MR. -NOBLITT: Will the man please clarify that? i MR. CARPENTER: I think you are clarified now. There is an amendment up to the motion. The motion was that seventy-five percent of the allotments be issued and twenty-five percent he held up. The amendment was that no permits he issued until range surveys he completed. That is what we are discussing. I have, sum- marized it only. i MR. MATHIS: I would like to talk on the amendment to the motion. The^ seventy-five percent was left entirely up to the advisory hoards. I am in favor of the amendment to the motion. I think where you have a Class A license you have vour permit in the hag. I don't thinjc it is feeing to hurt your credit any to delav some on the permits. Why reserve twenty-five percent when we can dis- cuss the hundred percent with the same information availahle.- We are already protected according to the hill, on any loans that we have heen hearing talked of here. I don't think any financial institutions are worrying at all if you have a Class A permit or license, and they would rather we would know our graz- ing business and he sure we arc right when we issue the permits, and when we have all the information availahle and necessary data, we will he in a position to make it one hundred percent. I am in favor of the .amendment to the motion. MR. WYATT: That comes1' from a hanker. How good, will a man's credit he. if after the capacity of the range is determined he is cut down twenty-five percent. That will not helu his credit. That will not give the hanker the proper pro- tection. The range survey has not made their report yet, hut they will and they have asked the Division of Grazing to put on a larger force, and if this group will insist on it, there is no question hut that the Division of Grazing will do it, and push this matter ahead as fast as possihle. Like the gentleman from Arizona, I am with tho amendment. MR. BALI^J I helieve that you can hear me here. We appointed our com- mittees and each state has "been represented. I helieve I will hegin this like the lawyer does. "Your honor, please we ohject." We appointed our committees on this' and each state was represented and I take it, you appointed the hest men you had. If you didn't, you should have done, and I helieve^this committee should he sustained and the resolution passed as recommended. If( this amend- ment carries, I can see indefinite delays. We were told here yesterday that the personnel to carry out this range survey was low, and that there \vas no immedi- ate prospect of getting this personnel augmented to any & eat extent. We are fighting against these delays and if you please we resist the motion to amend. ■ (Applause) MR. TAYLOR of NEW MEXICO; . I wonder if this amendment would not place each district in this position. On a contested case it might hang in the courts for years, It might stop the issuance of permits in an entire district. Tho reso- lution is left in your hands. We heard here last year, everything was tied in at tho -discretion of the local advisory hoards. This resolution offered hy the committee leaves it entirely at the discretion of tho local hoards, wijjjh all federal employees as members of that hoard. They are going to act fairly with the hest interest of the entire district at heart. I think we should issue - 64 j / Formit"s~to rtrVWll.e our industry and got emqr from those licenses as fast as we . can. I am- against the amendment. UR.OMER: I think permits should he issued as^soon as the advisor:/ .hoards BW m iher ar0 the people who have the first hand information and tne people Z have thence to Jrt'th. first hand information J^S^';*^ ing evidenoo as to what a man's qualifications are, an,.. ?° *f £f **°£ *S °°f plfte without that evidence. A license is a temporary thi bg fori t credit rating. I don't seo how a credit man could consider it very seriously in a credit setup. At Winnomucca, .at a recent conference it came out that tony operators wore almost on the rocks because they needed federal aid and credit , and could not get it until permits were issued. For that reason I am in favor of making pornfts as coon as possible and I think the advisory hoards could: handle that hotter than any other way. (Applauso) MR. TOODt I am in favor of issuing these permits -"cording to the wishes of the advisory hoards of the different districts on t» basie of the carry ng capacity fixed hy the different hoards until the survey is made. Upplaupej MR. SMITH of ARI20HA: I would like to call your attention, to th;> ^port here in the program in the case of Idaho, where it is estimated that tne range .., f n^4.«j ^ -iqak "NTorr ---mi . Fertlemen that have your range sur survey will do completed m 1946. hov o OU , ge nz permit We VFr3 completed, now. do you want to wait until i,y-ib reioro yuu 6 r h y nave had a lot'of /rouble with the Forest in getting en year perm its and re are very much interest ahout the permits. Je want to s abili " our^8J°c^ suff cfent numhers to complete this work. I think we are ?-««^»*8^' the resolution as adopted hy the Resolution Committee and I am in favor resolution and not the amendment. (Applause) MR. CARPEEER: In ordor that there may ho no confusion, the\ issuance of permit inTe district -U. not ho delved -cause the survey is not complete^ .h:%fLia~Llhr^v:y1isTompretedSwrtnti; S district. ^ is the i question at issue. MR. HYATT: There was submitted to this assemhly hy the License Committee a res"n that when the advisory hoards felt that they had su ---t da a to issue term permits, they could. Hot,, we all agree those districts .ill have have a range survey made. What way aro we leaning t MR.' GARDNER: They are leaving us twenty-five percent figuring that any think^S gTto S^L ma ne1heBr^ge and surveying those range's. Hew let the ^"°^°-*° ™f . these estimations and let the Department prove that we are wrong. I therefore . .stand for this resolution without any amendments. MR, J0H3S; I would like to have Mr. Vaughn make a statement. MR. VAUGHN:. Gentlemen, this is a great opportunity. Oregon is in favor , cut. lAuunu.. nunuj.ui.io , _#4.° „ „.„„i„tfi -pirvov of the commensurate of licenses or permits heing issued alter a complete survey o si_ ■ property. We do not feel that the advisory hoards wr. to ta« the ^esponsi Mlity of guesaing at a man's commensurate property. He do not want to Trait - 65 / '1 — until wo have a complete range survey made, therefore the original resolution or the amendment thereto does not fit, We want the medium. We want the permits issued up to seventy-five percent of the applicant's commensurate property extent after that survey has "been made by the Division of Grazing. I wonder if 1 have made that plain to you, that we want the permits after the property, is sur- veyed. We do not want to vw.it for the range surveys. We feel that the advisory hoards are competent to determine the carrying capacity of that range. That is all; MR« CARPENTER: It may not "be necessary to elaborate on what Mr. Vaughn said, because ho made it very clear. Range surveys are divided into a checkup of carrying capacity and a- range survey of the range. Mr. Vaughn wants a survey made, but he does not want to wait for the carrying capacity of the range, i MR* LEE: Mr.- Carpenter', I am opposed to the amendment and in favor of the committee report. I am surprised and disappointed to find that the minority of the members of this convention distrusts themselves and their own judgment, , I feel that they should not be so distrustfulr i VOICE: We all feel very deeply for Mr, Lee. It is going to be a very long time between tho figures and the estimates. MR. CARPENTER: I want to say this to everyone, under the amendment to the motion there is nothing that will prevent New Mexico from consid6ring and issuing licenses — permits, within the very near future. MR. LEE: We certainly appreciate the attitude of the Department. MR. CARPENTER: 'That would be included within the amendment. There is nothing in the amendment that prevents going right into permits, lit is simply that no district shall consider permits until the range survey is completed.. MR. STASS: How are you going to do it without knowing the carrying capacity of the range down there, and at least seventy-five percent. And then after you get that in my district, the whole capacity v/as exhausted by seventy-five per- cent; What are you going to do with the other twenty-five percent.^ Will you kill them. (Applause) The board would have to know, would have to have evi- dence of each individual' s capacity and of our commensurate property,, Then there would be no delay. MR. CARPENTER: That is an election talk. MR. J. B. WRITE, PARADISE, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l): ,1 am going to say, any term permits should not be issued until we determine 'carrying capacity of the range and the commensurate rig-its of the permittees* I believe if we issue term permits we are going to got into a lot of difficulty. It is much easier to make adjustments and issuo those term permits after we determine the facts. Therefore, I am in favor of the amendment to the motion. (Applause) / (Calls for Question) / • / MR. PERKINS: The mike might m£® them understand better than I can. It seems to me, friends, that there is a lot of'uscloss discussion and since there has been this committee appointed to work out this detail in this act , and as •here seems to have been given to each committee, certain discrotionary facts which would enable them to act in the best .interest of the district which they represent. And this survey committee was to determine the carrying capacity of the range, as I understand it. That should be completed as soon as possible and upon tho report of the survey committee to the advisory boards would be made. Then the advisory boards would bo able to act intelligently as to the issuing of licences or permits. - 66 - s wm — ,|li '' : I Now, if there could "be some medium betreen the survey committee and the advisory boards, if there could be something that would enable the range .survey committee 'to complete that report a3 soon' as possible so that the advisor;/ board might get their report to act* upon, or where there has been' information supplied to the^ advisory board that they can go ahead and act on their knowlodgo and information together with that of a survey committee, they could go ahead and issue those permits. And I believe the Resolution Committee had those things! in mind, and I do not believe we are going to go very far amiss if wo leave the matter as it is, and it would be my suggestion that every committee use its own judgment, and everyono put himself in the position of the other fellow, that we \rd£ht allll have a fair and sauare deal in the matter, that the thin/: will go throng V The difficulties will be local and minor and can be adjusted to tne satisfaction of the district. , . i MR. CECIL: If this question is illustrated much more. we won't know whore we are. , / MR, CARPENTER: Are you reads' for the question? All those in favor Isay Aye. Contrar- - No. We will poll the delegation. / ******** First lot me say, that there will be no poll /taken until everybody knows what he is voting on. I have been asked questions which led me to believe tnat there is some cloudiness as to the issue. Some have hskod.— would the twenty-five per- cent not granted permits read to another Government program of killing stock. That is not so. I have been asked if that would force a reduction of that twenty- five percent of the stock. That is not so. We will answer questions and correct any misunderstandings if you will bring them to me. MR. WHINNERY: I would like to ask if the amendment carries, if we will go back to the resolution. MR. CARPENTER: If the amendment is carried, that ends it. That is to say, . it. will be the answer of the assembly here that range permits will' be issued. i-vi MR. WHINNERY: It kills the original recommendation? MR. CARPENTER; Yes, sir. . MR. MC MURRAY: Would the advisory board in each district pass on this? MR. CARPENTER: After this range survey is completed?^ MR. MC MURRAY: No, they have their own choice of putting this-into effect when this range survey is completed* is that correct? MR. CARPENTER: That is true. They do not have to do it until this dis- trict is completely surveyed and they desire to do it. MR. WILLIAMS: I would like to call your attention to the fact that there has been a resolution voted upon and passed this morning by the license com- mittee, that these permits be not issued until after the range survey has been,_ made. Now, we are coming along and trying to set aside that which is already carried* Therefore, I am favoring the amendment to the motion — simply on , 4 those rules, that we voted unanimously hero this morning that there be no per- mits issued until after this survey was made. MR. HYATT: May I suggest that you re-read the resolution by the license committee? MR. CARPENTER: You will listen to the resolution already adopted as recom- mended by the license committee which is as follows: "Motion No. 2. KESOLVM) by the National Committee on Licenses, motion bv Mr, Hyatt of Wyoming and seconded by Mr. Adams of Utah, that the National Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a time as the several advisory boards feel that they 67 - ^PW^7^^^^^^^^pP^^Jw?fW!P^^|Pf^W havo reasonable knowledge on which to issue permits." I call your attention to the fact. that the "reasonable knowledge" might re baaed on, their own knowledge and so it is not in conflict at the time. v JUDGE COX: This question occurs to my mind, if you vote in fa/or of this amendment, you have used in the amendment the word "comDleted" . You might make , ra situation like this; you 'might send the boys out and they come in with a survey, submit it to the advisory "fcoard, but they might refuse to accept.it. John Doe standing on the side line is dissatisfied with thit survey. Ho' files an appeal. They hear it. They decide against him. He takes it up to tho Director and the Secretary of the Interior and then into the courts. During all that time, your survey is' not completed. With that word "completed" you strangle what hps been done in tho other motion and here by the amendment you take that discretion away and got the possibility of dragging it out maybe for six months or six years before you can get that survey completed. I think that word is dangerous. For that reason I would bo opposed to the amendment with that word "completed" in it. MR. CARPENTER: I wish to offer another construction of that word. When the range survey has been mod.e and laid before the Board and accepted, it will be started to be put into operation and will not wait for individual cases to ,. prosecute and appeal. When a majority p-rt of the board thinks the:- are ready, ^ they will start into operation in spite of any particular man thore. . * * MR. KA.THIS: Does it not say within the law that they do not issue permits until this range survey has been completed and handed to the Board. MR. CARPENTER: There is nothing in the law making it necessary to have a range survey. MR. MATHISr Isn't the advisory board and the Division of Grazing bound to agree? MR. CARPENTER; The advisory board recommends the issuance of a permit and the Division of Grazing issues it. The two concur in that. It clarifies this issue a little, which I do because these questions are asked. There is a ques- tion which duties should the board have, and what should the Government do for them? Gentlemen, I' am well aware of the western feeling for resourcefulness. I filed on a desert claim in 1907 and I ran all my ovT: ditches with a spirit level and a nail in it. In that little town, I served on the Town Board, and thore was a fellow in there and we got together and decided instead of paying an engineer, we would -do tho work and save the money, tfe ran sewer lines over all the town, and when we got through, we ran three of the laterals upside down,- so the water run back into the houses. ' Then we had to hire an engineer, which cost us $400.00, .and r/e hod to got out and re-dig all those ditches. I have carried flags for engineers, when the water ran straight up hill. I feel that we need solf-reliance, but the real question here is whether you want to be certain whon serving on the board, or whether you want to venture a guess on this thing. Any more questions on this? MR, SMITH of ARIZONA.: I really felt that in tho advisor:/ boards using their discration, it may not bo altogether a guess, as to whether we are making those nermits from a guess standpoint. I think the advisory boards should be careful about issuing those permits, especially since they have got the Division of Grazing to cooperate with them, ^e have got the two interested parties — you advisory boards and you Division of Gracing. They don't say that we have to issue those permits at any time. I hate to see a man's hands tied, and I want to see them in a uosition to do something. T7o don't have to wait until the last little bit has been gone over -by tho Division of Grazing, You fellows are limited, and while I realize that, then we are limited. MR. CARPEITT3R: I think we have opened this question about three times. - 68 - MR.- SMITH of ARIZONA: A point of ordor. 7e arc discussing this amend- ment. It appears to me a question was called on it. MR. CARPENTER: Are you ready for the question to "be voted on "by districts? Vo will call the role "by districts and the chairman wi 11 'announce the result of the four votes — four votes -in favor of the motion or four votes against the motion, which is in favor of the amendment, or he will split the votes. Any questions on how to vote? All right, we will call the role and take the vote down. A vote Yes is in favor of the amendment which would he in favor of delaying the issuance of permits until all of the range surveys are completed. A vote Ho would he against the amendment • MR. ADAMS: I think it would clarify matters some if the word "completed" was omitted. MR. CARPENTER: Do you want 'to withdraw the word "completed"? Do you have the "oermission of the second? \ MR* FINDLAY: Yes. MR. CARPENTER: tfill you state it? i MR. ADAMS: That no permits he issued until the range survey is made. MR. CARPENTER: "That no permits he issued until the range survey is made". MR. ADAMS: That will he all right. Thon your word "completed" is left out MR. CECIL. The previous question has "been raised. I think we should now vote. J, MR. CARPENTER: V/e will now vote on the amendment: Ho permits he issued until the range survey has /been made. A vote Yes is in favor of that amendment and a vote No is in favor of the original motion. VOICE: Some of the voters would like to 'know what -\o you moon "by the word "completed"? / / MR. CARPENTER: As there is no tfebster'a Dictionary ohtainahle, we are going to vote on this question. (This question was voted on hy states. The list of districts was read hy Mr. J. H. Leech.) / - 69 - RESULT OF POLL BY DISTRICTS ON THE MMDMEET: NO PERMITS BE ISSUED UNTIL THE RANGE SURVEY HAS BEEN WADE ! S-t-nt.P TH st.ri r.t Yes 1NU Arizona 1 ' * 2 4 4 . 1 i 3 4 California 1 2 j| 4 4 Colorado 1 2 4 3 1 - 3 4 4 6 A ' 4 .i Idaho "1 2 3 4 • 4 4 4 4 Montana 1 2 3 4 A 4 4 4 Nevada i 5 1 2 3 4 2 » 2 4 4 4 4 / 5 i 3 New Mexico 2a 4 4 2h 3 ! 4 4 4 5 i 4 6 4 Oregon 1 2 3 4 5 6 4 4 4 4 Utah 1 2 4 1 3/4 2 1/4 ■ 3 3 1 4 5 1 1 3 3 6 3 1 . 7 2 2\ • 8 4 Wyoming 1 2 ■ 3 4 5 4 4 4 4 4 TOTALS 58 3/4 137 lU I • I- 1 , J I . I W. CARPENTER: Results of the vote: JSP votes in favor °^° m0^°n' X37 votes against the a—ent. The aW* on is st gwjj^"^ original motion stands and we are -read, fox diocussion Cone on up to the mike, Mr. Vaughn. ■ - 70 - ^_-- MR, CARPENTER: In ordor to clarify this question, with the consent of tho na&or of the notion, I an going to try to simplify it. Tho original notion, as proposed by Mr. Brov/nfield, chairman of tho committee, is as follows: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue tern perr.it r. upon recommendation of the Advi- sory Board in the District affected, which shall include 75$ of the allotment re- commended for any ranch unit or range setup in proportion to commensurate property ovmod or controlled; that the 25$ of the allotment and nun'oers of livestock shall havo a temporary license until such tine as the Range Survey program is completed." How, as I understand Mr. Vaughn1 s amendment, it would "be to add in six words, as follows: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term permits — " and add these words: "when the commensurate property survey is completed, upon recom- mendation of the Advisory Board — " and so on. Would that be correct, Mr, Vaughn? MR. VAUGHN: We would accept that. MR. CARPENTER; If you would accept that, that simply addo the words: "when the commensurate property survey is completed.". Do I hear a second to that amend- ment? VOICE: Second, MR. CARPENTER: Motion is r.ado and seconded that an amendment be offered to the original motion, and that the words, "when tho commensurate property survey is conpleted" be added in the notion as discussed. Any discussion on that motion? MR. SPALDING: May I ask in what order you are going to make tho surveys of commensurate property? He has got voted down "by an overwhelming majority "until after the range survey was made", and now we are going to inject a phrase that - 71 - i MR. VAUGHN, OREGON: Oregon wishes to offer, as an amendment to tho original resolution that, when commensurate property surveys are conpleted, and approved "by the advisory "board and the Division of Grazing, all Class A applicants will "bo issued permits for 75 percent of tho range available, and tenporary licenses for the remaining 25 percent. It is plain to see, gentlemen, when a district, within itself* can't agree within a fraction of a man, that there has got to bo some compromises made, and I think it is a cinch that something concrete bo arrived at so that all the advisory boards have got something to stand on. If you hove got , a concrete policy, thruout tho grazing area, to back up the advisory boards, you have got something to stand on when you render a decision. ■ It scons to mo that a lot of you gentlemen serving in an advisory capacity, must have your successors pointed out. Up in our country, we are not in office inde- finitely. We don't know who our successors might be. Wo v.buld^like to see a uni- form ruling thruout the grazing area, that will give the advisory boards something to base their ruling on, and we don't think that it is necessary to hold up tho issuing of permits until the range survey is made. We believe that the advisory boards are capable of arriving at somewhere near the carrying capacity of the range, but wo do not believe it is -within tho discretion of tho advisory boards . to determine your neighbor's cozrr.ensurability. Therefore the roason for the amendment. f • MR, WILLIAMS: I would like the gentleman from Oregon to explain why he *. wants to put in that 25 .percent. J MR. VAUGHN: A compromise. MR. WILLIAMS: Why not compromise on the 100 percent. MR. WHINNERY: I wonder whether or not tho committee on this report has cov- ered the entire situation when they say Clo,ss A. If I remember the rules,1 Class 1 defines common surability and tho standing of tho applicant as to his common sur-* ability. Class A defines whether or not that property is dopendent upon the pub- lic range. It seems to me there should be an amendment there to accomplish what they wish to accomplish, and that should be, Mr. Chairman, Class 1-A should be put- in there, if they are going to consider conmensurability at all. / / will hold u.3 up until the property •survey ip made. In what order doos tho Depart- nent contemplate making those survoys. MR. CARP3NT3R: Y.ou will find tho order designated in the oxhi"bit to your program, which separates commensurate property and range surveys, and shows the estimate of the range survey division as to how soon they can complete it. In tho north, it is one way, and in the couth, it is another way,, "because they can work the year 'round. Up here, we can mot make a range survoy, of courso, in the wintor. How that will work in each territory is shown on one of your exhibits to your program. Any discussion? Are you in favor of the notion? All those in favor of the amendment, signify "by saying "Aye". *** Opposed, "No". *** ' The NO's havo it. Aro you ready for tho original motion? All those in favor' of tho notion as made "by tho chairman of the core." it too, signify "by saying "Aye". ' *** Opposed, "No." *** Motion is carried. I will ask the chairman of the commit too' on foes and finances to make his report at this tine. Tho; chairman of tho national committee on fees and finances, ' MR. E, L. JAMESON, KINGMAN, ARIZONA: I was very fortunate yesterday, in be- ing put on a committee that didii't have anything to do. Had no arguments, 'only a. "bout six or seven hours, something like that. Our report, you will no tied, is short: "Tfo, your national committee on fees and finances, ^QCiZ leave to submit the follow- ing report: "1. It is recommended that there ho no change in* fees for licenses during the year of 1937, "2. This committee is unanimously agreed that tho ma.tter of charging fees in :low districts during the first year of administration is a matter to "bo decided by^i each particular district and the Secretary of the Interior, and this committoe, therefore, make no recommendation. "3. It is recommended that if and when permits aro granted, during the season of 1937, no change shall he made in grazing fees. "4. It is recommended that there he no fees charged for trailing licenses on stock driveways, hut whore water is provided "by artificial means, that the charge "be the cost of producing such water, and that there also ho a charge for tho cost of policing tho stock driveways." I move the adoption of the committee* 6 report. MR. EINDLAY: VT^ero does the foe come from.? You aro not chJarging tho drivor any feo , hut you are charging tho foe for watering purposes? MR. JAMESON: That was the intent. MR. CARPENTER: Do you^rish to a.ct on tho recommendations separately, or on the report as a whole? VOICES; As a whole. MR. CARPENTER; Those in favor of adopting tho four resolutions on foes and finances, signify by saying .Aye, *** Goosed, No. *** The Ayes have it. There has "been a littlo confusion in tho minds of some ahout a suit to restrain tho collection of foes in the State of H©v,nda, and, "because wo do not wish any mi Guilder standing on that, I am going to ask if * there is anyone here who cares to . Snake an explanation, so that we will know clearly why that suit was instituted, and what was involved in that suit. - 72 - pap r r ■ *»» >'VT--+*n W I.IR. tf. B, vTRIGHT, DESTH, 1IEYADA: I especially appreciate the privilege, not "being an accredited delegate, to address this group, and I wish to thank not only the Chairman, "but the state delegates, for the courtesy extended to Nevada, of allowing us a few moments to explain our position. You know, when a cow nan talks on technical legal questions, he is in a difficult spot. therefore, I trust no one will ask no technical quostiorisL I think Hr. Carpenter has already riven mo the answer, only, in my caso, I would state I don't have any logal vol- umes with lie; therefore we will go forward, j His reference was to tho dictionary. Last year, I had the honor of prc-senting Hevada1 s general statement, and, at that ■tine, I attempted to make clear our attitude that we wore not desiring froc range. Ue have every wish to pay for what wo got. I also attempted to explain to you that wo feel. wo have "been paying for the range for a number of years, duo to our tax set-up, under which only 11 percent of the entire area of the ',state is in private ownership, one half of that 11 percent belonging to the railroads and which land wo leaso. Therefore, it is not a question of free use vorsus pay. As a ground work, to clarify our position, I must call your attontion to the dif- ference "between tho Taylor Grazing Act and tho forest set-up, and, in so doing, I do not want anyone to misconstrue my renarks as being antagonistic or in1 favor of either sot-up. I simply present facts to you to mill over in your mind, For about thirty years — and w.e might odd at this tine that this difference is an important consideration for you, due to the fact that there is a definite r.ovo to concentrate tho two grazing services either under the Department of Agriculture . or tho Department of Intorior — for about thirty years, you have "boon ^ operating on the forest under a grazing sot-up which is a. "by-product of the service. In othor words, grazing is secondary. You are regulated "by departmental rules a.nd regulations, solely. The Forest act was "brought *nbout "by a-presidential proclama- tion. If the Taylor Grazing Act has any ono great advantage,' as has "been pointed out to you "by Director Carpentor on many occasions, it is the fact that you have a "basic law, designed primarily for grazing, and designed to stabilize tho livostock in- dustry dependent upon tho public ranges, ITow, then, grazing is the first consid- eration undor the Taylor Act. This Act not only limits those who are to ho regu- lated, "but it places certain administrative limitations upon those who aro direct- ing application of tho act. Our theory in Novada is simply this: if v/o have a basic grazing law, it is highly important that conduct under tho law "be confined to the limitations of the law, particul.arly in tho initial stages, for that nV when tho die is cast. If you get away from tho law, it is just a matter of timo until you have a set-up which will "bo controlled entirely "by departmental regula- tions. Now, this suit is a friendly suit. I might say to you that the relations between "the stock mon of Nevada and the Department of Grazing are most cordial at all times. Wo have no antagonism over there. T7e are not attempting to "be oh s tract ion- ists. I think it is a rather short-sighted view, to consider that an attempt to crystallize law is an obstruction. T7o have, on occasion, heard Mr. Carpenter state that many of the so things will ho ironed out thru a period of years, rela- tive to crystallizing ambiguous parts of the law. The Department of the Interior has their logal advice in their solicitors' department. Tho individual stock man has his legal, advice in his attorneys. Sack, of course, has confidence in his legal advisor. However, as in all things, diversifications o£ opinion arise, and, in our x^articular caso, our attorneys advise that a fee undor Section 2 of tho Act is not logal. The question, therefore, arises: Do we wish to "brush asido the technical legal phase of it, and accept a fee, or do wo wish to abide by the law, which provides, in Section 3 of tho Act, that the Secretary of the Interior may collect a reason- able fee in each and over;/ case, fixed and determined upon tho issuance of per- mits. H0w, to us it lias seemod vory important that we stay within tho law, in order to prevent an arbitrary sot-up. ITow, in order to emphasize that, I can re- fer you to tho hoarings beforo tho various congressional, committees, and, on vari- ous occasions, our legislators voicod .apprehension relative to a government bureau being set up which might prevent the normal operation of the industry, . and it was because of this apprehension that certain limitations wore written - 73 upwp into the Act. Nov/, there are other features in this Act, if one was out simply to causo headaches and "be an obstructionist , that wo boliovo could "be legitimately attackod. That is not the purpose. The purposo is to crystallize and to deter- mine whether or not a Department can put. their own interpretation's upon this Act and can ctrotch it to such a "broad oxtont that, for example, under Section 2, thoy can collect a foe without the issuance of permits. Administrators of the lav/ — and I think that Mr, Carpenter is no exception in this; in fact, I ' am sure he i3 not — welcome attempts to "bring a"bout such crystallisation and clarifica- tion, and the sooner these thiiv;& C£*o settled, t&o "better. i Nov/, another limitation in there,. to bring out what I referred to as restrictive limitations, is the so-called McCarron limitation, which was reforrod to this morning. It is granted that a few v/ords in there woro rather unfortunate, "but don't "bo confused in that feature of tho -provision, which provides that the value of tho grazing unit shall not "be impaired. That is tho essence, not .that a nan may "be in debt, and that is one of- their restrictive limitations. In order to "boar out what I have said, with regard to this "being a friendly suit and not an attack upon tho Act, and not 'an attempt to obstruct it, I, wish to read you the opinion of Judge Yankwieh of tho Federal Court. You know, attorneys have devious ways of doing things. -They always exhaust all avenues, and, as wa3 expected, the original case, filed in. tho st.->te court, was transferred to tho foderal court "by tho Government , the reason "being that the Government maintained the state court had no jurisdiction. Cur attorneys maintained, for technical roasons, that the federal court had no jurisdiction. In tho first heat, we won, as wo are now "back in tho state court. Bu^» just to clarify the picture with regard to the Act itself, I wish to read you just a brief statement taken from Judge Yarkwich's opinion: "The plaintiffs do not question the right of the United States Government, thru Congress, to rogulato the use of any part of its public domain, nor do thoy ques- tion tho right of Congress to enact the Taylor Grazing Act or the delegation of power to tho Secretary of the Intorior under tho Act, to requiro the payment of a license foo. They assert a right not contrary to the Act, but one under it. What is that right? Each of them asks to be relieved of the iDaynent of grazing fees by virtue of clained authorized rules and regulations. Thoy question merely the right of tho Secretary of the Interior to. demand a license fee for a tempo- rary, revocable permit." In this instance, he uses the word "per. ".it" ' in place of "license". That is the essence of the suit and the purpose of the suit. At this time, I wish to refer- you to our statement last year, that Nevada stock men stand at all times ready to cooporate and assist in the furtherance of all constructive a.t tempts at range regulation, which we recognize the necessity of. Thank 3rou. MR, CARPENTER: I can add nothing to that clear statement, except to say that, as a lawyer, I glory in tho fact that wo have a system of government , /. whereby any citizen, no matter how humble, can go to the courts and question any administrative department, no matter how great, and v/o, of courso, wish to pro-^ serve that, and this is a demonstration of that right being presorved in' that way. GENTLEMAN WOK MONTANA; ' I move that a mimeographed copy of this address bo sent to each advisory board, MR. CARPENTER: It will be included in the record, gentlemen, and wo expect to mimeograph tho entiro rocord and nail a copy to every district advisory member in the United States, so that you will get a record similar to what you got last yoa.r, which will include all tho debates, resolutions, votes, and everything else. Will tho chairman of the committee on rango improvements present his report? - 74 - I It' A m. L. L. TAYLOa. MOAB, ttUHi. After the onjr «?xatatw. » Uje cW tnat wo have U totay, I think it vdll bo a relief to no.t of us ^esont, ^ ha o latnor a sweet subject brou-ht up; that is, ranCe iaproycr:o-.its. It is a s ibjoc « *-\;^ - a He subject, when you go to nBa]7.e it. For the last year ■«£ a ..alf, £ ..avo started on this n»c inprovonent proem?; but wo toe .eal 1 ^* ^atc ™ ^ surface At lb. .tart °^^°fg^^3 ^ ?&£*%£ S^JS of So atiOK of the fine cooperation of the SCT7 organization. It an. really boon von ierful . 'proved by our boards. toy ooaru .ie..,ux, « -s, ----- -•-- > ^ or not, if it is a worthy project, ho can pot :«^to on . ri^it ov in a very or/tafi need for :,ore ennps Ton take a look at the .ap, «J.-~ g1 th-t a lot of our onn)>S are croupod, n.nd you look at t.io ,.ap o. u.o states and it looks like one or too states have a monopoly on ca,ps. «* to soy, now, that each of th.se c,,pS that -e no. established have work •elects that will keep the;, busy for ox* years. Eebody weal, .iwj-t . ^ - - six voars to conplote their proton. Oar rosoiuxior. is ,9 "'="" Xte Kid like to nention a few Uiwtratto. project .» J^*-*^? ^pro3ectS S8°2& Put°ov:r°0l0r fil^S S"*^^"- r£3Si». -raGo oi*t acre fte? ?er reservoir. That has been done in a little over a year. Hero is Utah. Here is a whole paf of types of projects Szs>™ is °»^ bridce. two spans wide one 100- . =. an and one G£rt span. Hero ^ Cisco Spring ag^,^^^^. ^ brin. Hrw, I an coins to road the resolutions and let it go at that , but out in the lobby hero" or the corridor, there are a let of narrative reports, and t 1« .. terested will do well to step out there and road those narrative reports. I will road the resolutions and 1 will be ti-.ru: .... B«r „.«!«». 0, ,™. •»* ?«?:£« X^S'lfS »*S=S ne- ither nont that r.oro need exists tor inprovo,,^. «-*«.-- iT"^,: we herolDy rcco-ond Federally ovned and operated lands. Based on thxs ^a^hle, neie „ to this assembly, that the follov/ir./: resolutions Dc adoptee. -1. (,) Ve reconnend that all DW-Lon £ «^*^ g^ lrrly established grazing districts dxiu tiiat no \.or*. piojc.ou such ca-ips unloss located within organized districts. , . j.1 4 *.-Tor,n+ on# n -id perhaps noro of the l.(B) Ynur cor^ittee is of the opinion r. at tot* ^^ theri fully oc- existinc CCC carjps have v/or!c procrnna r^ead ,i t.u i ^f£11 w0 rocomond that cupied for the oonlng tuelve ::.onths, at the least. ...eroiore, - 7? - 10 that the opnps now established, which have work projects justifying their future "to™ not disturbed by seasonal r.ierr.tion. In this connection, wo point e"t thkt the vast mjority of Divisio, of Grazing CoWare located in areas •-ore yearlong nor): is practicable. However, m roco.-ize tot a »Sf,^- nay be feasible and proper to neve cnups- north in the su^or and _ south in to winter, depending on soazonal and clinatic conditions of the venous areas Oxt. public flteiia where r,.noO improvement is needed. Therefore wc reckon*. t.vat . the Question of seasonal migration of canps be left to the aiscroUon of t e Re.-ional Grazier, Division of Grasin.-, and the to&uuO. Supervisor, BCJ, Dearly inV.ind the climatic conditions existing in the various localities. "(C) T.'o recomnize that in oomo of the nev:l;.? oroatca ,~razinc districts there aro very few if anv 0C0 car.** and vve ur-;c upon f.e Department of the Interior «* the EOT organization in T7a=nin-ten the cryinr; njed for the establish -.oat of W cams in those districts, feelir.G that the ,GCC ca,ps should be locatea ^eth- ically so as to insure that all frazinf dis/trictcjdll receive their proportion- ate share of funds available for ra...;o improve: ion to. "3. (A) \!o recoa.r-.ond that the Af-vinorr Boards as a whole pass upon ^-d approve all projects and olace then in their priority of importance, whenever to *oard S in session and the approval of a najority of the members is ohtainablo, otnc^- wise final approval on projects end their priority ox importance nay bo ,;i/on by the Chairman and one other Board member who resiles in the locrlit, o, the pro j ect . ' i "4 Ve ore positive that the Division of C-razin-;, possibly duo to its recent organization has not been -rented its fair proportion of EC7T camps, taking into .cco^the^ast amount of -bread end butter; project* «?^^f *£."• vital to a propur administration of t.io (>razi^., ro^nuicuo ux ,--« . "*e msl, to point out that the public dona.in consists of ^l^'^ij^ as yet only 45 Division of Grazing or»i are m operation. 0 thei Gover one atal arencies wo feel, have had the lion's share of the DOT work, as illustrate, by £o fte^/the West Cervice has six camps to each one camp __for the g™ion of Grasin-. TTe roconmond that each and every Advisory Board-..o;.ber as.o...e tea more - today censktute himself a committee of one to ur.,o upon the proper authorities that -ore Division of Grazing eamrps bo established, to the end that every .razi,, district be Given at least one camp, and as many more as their needs ma, require. "5. T?o recommend that the 35# of the erasing fees that are returned to thefiraz - inG districts bo emended for ran-e improvements, principally cater develop em., road and trail construction, recent control, poi serous plant eradication, ^c. other similar wit. As the needs of the several f^™?* ^a%J%f^£%Z the Advisory Board of each district be ordered with tie authority of „pecil,.i.^ what projects shall bo approved for the expenditure of oucn fanes. ^ f "loose resolutions were adopted this 10th day of December, 1930, by the «««*ee on ran;e inprovenont, consisting of: VTeyne Gardner, Utah Boston 1; Edjar Bray, Colore; J. D. flhoelor, Montana; J. L. Ripple, Kovada; V. *-*«*£> ^°f^. Walker Durham, Hew Mexico; J. J. Bollard, Ore.-pn; Marion Lee, Arizona, L. L. T.„ lor, Utah, Ro,oio:-- 2; B. Thomas llorris, Idaho. "Mr. Chairman, I move you the adoption of these resolutions." till. CABPSKSBHt You have heard the moti :n. Are you ready for the question of the adoption of the resolutions of the committee on ran~o improvements? (Calls for question.) All those in favor of the adoption, signify by sayinc ^Opposed! ilo. The Ayes have it. Will the _ chairman of the committee on range survoys orin^ his resolutions forward at this ti::.o. MS. J. a. SMITH, ARI2DItt.: Your national' co;nittoo on ran ;c surveys j> eg to report as follower The comittoo on ran-Q butted, aeotinfi poster W™J** *• Molohon, v/cnt over to the office u.ioro t:.o plats are drav/n up an, y/nore all tio naps concerns the ranSe surveys are nofla, «U went into do ta.l ,ath the people flrafti»B tlte naps, relative to the procran and tha v/.-^s r>.ncl r.eans of d^^ these :,aps. It i a very Creat help to the co:,,iUoo, to have tneso naps and -t 7fi - pinto placed "before then in order that thoy any .find just how tho Division of Grazing is operating in noking the range survey. Wo thon returned to our comity too room and had a great deal of discussion over range surveys. It is ny privi- lege to report to you that v/o cane out of that committee without a dissenting voto. Altho there wore r.any ideas, we consummated those ideas into a resolution which was unanimously adopted, by tho committee aiitf then turned over to tho resolutions committee for then to draft. Xle wish to siibpit to you at this tine tho resolution as draftod "by the resolutions committee: i "Bo it resolved, that tho objectives, standards of work and nethods of procedure now established "by tho porsonnol of tho Rar.go Surveys "branch of tile Division of Grazing he approved. \ \ "That since tern permits must "be "based upon accurate data gathered "by the Range Surveys, this work "be expedited "by an enlarged personnel, "That the Range Survey personnel "be instructed to give first preference to tho various kinds of work as follows: 1. ' Dependent proporty surveys in the rogions whore thoy forn tho basis ,for licenses. / 2, Actual rango surveys in regions whoro dependent proporty surveys aro not needed. 3. Actual range surveys in regions where the depondent proporty survey ' lias hoen completed, "That all data collected in the Range Surveys program "bo submitted to the Advisory Boards concerned for their approval.- / "That all Advisory'' Boards cooperate to the fullest extent with tho Range Surveys personnol and furnish all available data covering lands within their rospoctivo districts.." Mr» Chairman, your committoo on range surveys submit this report and now make the motion that tho report "be adoptod as read. MR. 1AAHAF5HY: I would like to second that motion, and I would like to say further: You made the statement here lay "before yesterday ab?ut tho "bird about three blocks from tho whitohouse that could say throe words, "Give us more appropriations." I "bolievo you can go hack and report to your superiors, or Congress, and say that every stock man in the west is in harmony with that in shouting, "Give us more appropriations, so we can got this survoy completed as quickly as possible." / / MR. CARPEiTTSR: You have hoard tho reading of the resolution. Aro you ready for the question? Those in favor of adopting tho resolutions submitted by tho committee on range surveys, signify by saying Ayo. Opposoa^&Q^ *** Tho Ayos havo it, and tho resolutions aro adoptod. 1 an going to ask tho Pirst Assistant Secretary to take tho Chair at this tine and he will call on Judge Cox, the Chairman of tho Legislative committee, I believe. MR. WALTERS: Ladios and gentlemen, you can hear me without the "mike" , can't you, back there? VOICES: Sure. t, MR. WALTERS: I never had much trouble boing heard before anybody excopt Congress. Yesterday evening, some friends of mind prosented mo with a picturo,f which they had clipped from some newspaper, and. asked mo whether the statement made at tho bottom of that picture was correct. I road thru the printed matt or above the picture and below it. Above tho picture, it say 3, "Talks on grazing". Immediately below tho picturo, "T. A. TTaltors, hero on grazing meeting," and right at the bottom of that, immediately below tho last statement, it reads: "Ploads not £uilty." On a close examination, I found, however, • that these gentle- men had been doing some tinkering with tho matter as it camo from tho press, and thoro is a lino there indicating thoy had foldod it ovor and, I think, pasted it on. I do not know whether thoy wore sheep men or cattlo men. nn _ Ihat puts no in nind of that old story or. Carpenter - I think he ha > lof t the roori TBun ho was speakine to a Group of ran^c ::.on, and Bhowinc ..is knovr- ied~o of the rave and individuals and his lone association with then, ho said that hf cou^d picv out the sheop P.en «* cow non by their Wf- Ho referred to one nan over hero and said, "You are a sheepr.on. aren't you, Mr. Jones, . iua he said, "Yes, sir," and he said, "Saith,. you are a cattle can, aren't .~T ', a d 'Yes, sir." Ho was pickir-G then out ri^.t along. Hero was a big £ SSb-tat heea'on^a few yearsPfron Sweden, who had Just cone in fro, the ran-e. Ho said, "Mr. Olson, you aro a sheep am, aren't you?" Ollio rose up Lad he said, "Ho, Ay bano r.o sheep r.an; Ay bane sic!, aboot six nunts, nak no loo!: lak hell." (Laughter.) We aro approaching the conclusion of this ncotin,;. I an going to call on Jud>-o Cox for his roport in a ninute, hut lest, poradventuro, no mfiut take tie tine which I should consune, perhaps, I went to sake a f w observations. I taw, as °ou know, boon at this noeting since its inception. I had the great ^W ox being at- the first nceting of the hind you ever held, alnost W^ ana ny interest In the nesting and in the non and wonon who attend those °wg^ increases with the amber of tines I attend and associate with you. If you M S nothing else hut cone here, as you do, and asco oiate one wi t tn* oth or, have your connittoo r.cotings and present your problem, and c.iscass thca, (U sonetines cuss then, and went hone, you would have perfomed a groat service .or the other fellow arid also for yourself. We find, by associating together, that none of us are fret, fren l^^f that the other follow, ove/on the other side of ^"^^^iC.SS to what you have on this side, and naybo ho has a little aifloicnt pro vou have but, by your cooperation and discussion, you illustrated tne wooicne and Sny tine; assisted each other in solving then. You nay not bo satisfied or contented, but you have gone a long way towards both. e Irishman, to distinguish between the word s "satis id ana "contented", and ho paused for a mnuto e»d ro sal d, *ol 1, ^'l^1^1 our f^F gtTjS ffStSnlSS'^T^^rS;* Period "when he has^ars^uwonte^nt^e-'^s-reachoi that. stage in ^•JSJS^SS -- the nlnco to feich a Great character in ancient tines was transported Loftily to it ' ethereal rcalns above known as Hoavon. Wo don't find that o-/. earth. Our problens aro capable of solution today, but tcnorrou th ere ^ new °nos born. The Department of Interior is nest ^itally interested in your^r oblo. s Mary of us who have to do with the range hive per sonol knowledge o f it • ^ ^.ave «VmU in tho eoBDB* wo have oaton the Bourftough with pleasure, ana the Bacon. Sonetiies ovon^ houji it Lsn't cooked according to the nost nodern no hods, it perfectly I can reconnend it to those who have .weak stonachs or bad diction. Before calling upon Kr. Co., I wish to say that we ^Wj'^j *»£ i— ton notlii".' but tho best, nothing but a roport of tne Greatest intorest -«ani £5 bf^on and wonen. *^™ ^£^,S SSS n^ould T^tardy S^nTsil^in ^nUe^cs, and I don-t care to what business they bolonG. . (Applause.) . \) .,3 -,„ a, i-nvn ■,-robablv would repeat ;the state- I stated to a young nan — and ..o is ..oro, ^rooaoi^ nou ^ -Meove who neat - Sofoi-o wo l.-.nded in Salt LeJco, I said to one of our legal advi.or. .a.o , nS never boon west of tho Missouri Rivor ~ wo asked h in «W ^fc^|hen on local problons that cor.o before us, arising out of *■*■*» voua2tU^laa have arisen and will arise- I said to hin, this: ,.^ *^,^^ ^ lB a after -ou havo attended this noetin,;;, «nd that is t..is. V6nat you my oj nooUnG where nen expressed thennolvos as fearlessly and accurately,^ to tho - 78 - point, and as intelligently, as you will find these men expressing thensclves . I said to hip: "If you could get a group of rlen °f the sane number, of the co-called industrialists of the east together, they would frill short of that capacity to e:cpress then solves and to coopcrato, which you will find among the ct?c: men of the west." , How, I think I havo talked to you long enough. I have had the -privilege of talking all over the west and not lone ago — I will toll you another story; we havo got tine for that, I guess — it amused no when I was talking about the social security question, and the chairman of the occasion was a preacher and ho took groat interest in the subject of social security and lookod upon it partly as a religious nattor. Before ho concluded, ho took occasion to speak at some length to the audience and disagree somewhat with my conception of the social security act as passed by the Congross of the United States 'and signed by the President, and ho said to his audionco with sor.io enthusiasm, quot- ing the Scriptures: "rrhat wo nood, ladies and gentlemen, is a condition in this country where every nan of us may rost beneath the grateful shadow of his own vine raid fig tree, and none shall make 1:1m afraid." It was a beautiful conception, and ho had groat applause, and ho repeated it: "What wo need is a condition in this country whoro every man of us nay rest be- neath the grateful shadow of his own vino and fig tree, and nono shall make him afraid," With largor applause and greater enthusiasm on his part, ho repeated for the third tine, and with sono mistake, perhaps, he said, MLadios and Gontle- men, what wo nood in this country is a condition where ovory man of us nay sit beneath tho grateful shadow of his own fig loaf and none shall make him afraid." How, Mr. Cox, if you will cone forward, we will hear your report. JUDGE LeHOY COX: Your national corral t too on legislation has unanimously adopted the following resolutions, for your consideration: K "It was unanimously resolved by this legislative committee that provision be made so that the 50$ now going to the state to be clisposod of by tho legislature shall be turned ovor to the grazing boaras whoro tho grazing land is located, for the improvement and development of the ran-os; and "It was further ro solved that we recommend tho form of tho following proposed draft of the law, which vail carry out tho purpose of tho foregoing resolution: "Proposed Model Law for Stat.es for Distribution of jpedoral Funds. "Section 1. That all funds- rocoivod by tho State of , as its distri*- butivo share of tho amounts collected by the United States government under the provisions of tho act of Congress of June 23, 1934 (43 Stat. 1269) ' known as. the Taylor Crazing Act, and any act amendatory thereof shall bo deposited with tho State Troasuror. Upon receipt of said money, the State Troasurer shall distri- bute tho sane to the several counties of the State in which such public Lands aro located. The State Treasurer shall .ascertain from the proper United States offi- ors having tho records of receipt fron grazing permits and lop.se and sale of pub- lic lands the amount of receipts from such sources in this state for each year for which money is received by tho "state, and a separate account shall bo kept of tho sun rocoivod fron each grazing district and lease and salo of public lands, which sun shall bo segregated by tho State Treasurer and paid to tho county in which said grazing district or leasod public land is located; and if any such grazing district or leased land lies in more than ono county of tho state, each/, such county shall recoivo such proportional amount of said sum as the aroa of such grazing district or loascd public land included within tho boundary of' sucli county shall boar to tho total aroa of such grazing district or loaso. "Section 2. All money received from tho lease and salo of public lands within tho county. shall bo placed to tho credit of the genoral school fund of tho county, "Section 3. All money rccoived from grazing fees of a grazing district regularly established and including public lands within tho county shall bo placod to the credit of a spocial fund to bo designated 'Tho Range Improvomont Fund of Grazing - 79 - i « f District No. .' Tho Count-- Troa surer of the .county. in which such public lands arc located shall "bo and is hcroty constituted tho ox-officio district troasuror of any federal grazing district located in whole or in part within such county, and shall "bo liable upon his official "bond for tho proper caro and dis- tribution of such moneys; and he shall collect, receive, receipt, and account for all moneys from such source. Tho County Troasuror, as 3uch ex-officio Graz- ing District Treasurer, shall pay out such money upon tho warrant of tho Grazing District signed by the Chairman of tho Board of ri strict Advisors of such Grazing District, and count or*- signed by the Vice-Chairman thereof, and the Regional Grazier in administrative charge of said District. "Section 4. Said money from grazing fees of Grazing Districts shall be oxpoiidod as tho Board of District Advisors of such Grazing District may direct within said county for range improvements and the maintenance thereof; predatory animal con- trol ( rodent control, poisonous or obnoxious wood extermination, or for the pur- chase or rental of facilities or lands within such comity which will "benefit such grazing district or the part thereof within said county." Since wo have a number of resolutions, which differ as to their intent, perhaps it would be bettor to take each resolution up, one at a time. Mr. Secretary, and follow members of this delegation, I move tho adoption of the first resolution. MR. WALTDRS: You have heard tho resolution. Is there a second? Is thoro a discussion, firsts All those in favor, signify by saying Ayo. Those opposed, Ho. Tho Ayos have it. Tho motion prevails, (jo ahead, Mr. Cox. . i^-~ JUDGE COX: "Resolution Ho. 2. It was unanimously resolved by this legisla- tive committee that wo recommend to the Secretary of the Intorior that the Taylor Grazing Act bo amended to incorporate within'its provisions the recognition of tho Advisory Board set-up as a part of the administrative features of the Taylor A Grazing law." I move tho 'adoption of that resolution. MR. 17ALTDRS: Do I hear a second? (Motion seconded.) All those in favor, say Aye. Contrary, No. The Ayos have it.. The motion prevails. \^ JUDG3 COX: "Resolution Ho. 3. It was unanimously resolved that wo recom- mend to tho Secretary of tho Intorior that Section 10 of tho Taylor Grazing Act be so amended as to provide that instead of 50$ going to tho several state treas- urers to bo expended as therein provided, that said 50$ bo added to the 25$, mak- ing 75$ in all to bo used for tho purposes sot out in the Act, upon tho recom- mendation of tho Advisory Board under the direction of tho Secretary of tho In- A terior and on the recommendation of tho Advisory Board." Just a word in explanation, of that resolution, before I move its adoption. It was colled, to the attention of your legislative committee, that, in a numbor of the states, legislative action hod "boon talc on in which the 50$ of tl;.e grazing foos that was returned to the states, havo boon diverted into school funds and into general county funis. Your committee folt that all of this^should go for range improvement, under supervision of the Advisory Board, and the Secretary , and, fooling that perhaps there may be some difficulty in got ting tho law changed in some of these statos which have already onactod laws giving tho money to school districts or genoral funds, and those receiving the bonefits having had a tasto of the pie might bo roluctant to give it up, that wo would rdso re- commend, in addition to the proposed state law, uniform state law, an&dditional change in tho basic law of tho Taylor Act, which, if accomplished, would give di- rectly, or appropriate directly, thru .tho Socrotary and tho Advisory Boards, a total of 75$ of tho foe to be used for range improvomont. Mr. Chairman, with that explanation, I move tho adoption of Resolution llo, 3. MR. Wi\LT3RS: Is thore a second to the motion? (Socondod.) Is thoro a dis- cussion? If not, those in favor, signify by saying Aye Contrary, 1T0. Tho Ayes have it; tho motion prevails. - BO - T J JUDGE COX: "Resolution Ho. 4: Wo commend the Secretary'- of the Inferior for his splendid administration of the Taylor Grazing Act ana. for his selection of / E. R, Carpenter as Director of Grazing — " a nan who, I night state, has really boen'tho father, in a large sense, of this particular administration of the Taylor Grazing Act, who has fathered the idoa, the theory, of local autonony, in the solution of grazing problems among the livestock r.en. Fron rjy observation, where I have travolod, it is ny honest judgment that, if wc had .not had a nan of the capabilities and the fight that Mr. Carpenter has given to us, that we would not have had the participation in the handling of the grazing problems that we now enjoy under the advisory board set-up, and your legislative committee, feeling that way, na&e this conr.ondation, c " — and we unanimously favor a four-year tern, for Mr. Carpenter and we rospoct- «-- fully recommend that the Socretary make this rccoi-:.o:,:uation to the President." I move the adoption of that resolution. MR. WALTERS: You have heard the notion; is there a second. (Second.) Is there a discussion? If not, all those in favor signify by saying Aye. Contrary, Ho. The Ayes have it; the notion prevails uiianinously. w JUDGE COX: "It was unanimously resolved by this legislative connittee that we reconnend to the Secretary of the Interior that Section 17 of the Taylor Grazing Act be attended to provide for a definite r^our-year tern for the Director of Grazing; and "Be it farther resolved, that section 17 be amended to provide that in making fu- ture appointments livestock men connected with the T-ylor Grazing Act from each public land state noninate one qualified potential director of grazing and that J--' fron these selections the Director by appoint o-'1 , " I night state, briefly, in explanation of that resolution, that it was the sense of your legislative committee that, if it were possible to remove the ad- ministration of the livestock problems to the extent that it would not be nade too much of a political football, pad to the' c::teat that we would always be as- sured of a western nan who is acquainted with western problems, and to the further extent that we would always hove, as a director, a nan who is interested in the livestock problons of the west, a nan who hao" interests under the Taylor Grazing Act, and a nan who is interested in seeing the preroat set-up, under the Depart- nent of the Intorior, of this particular adr.iinistrativo system kept in force, that wo would achieve this by r.aking an anundmor.t to this law, which would carry out this purpose. Mr. Secretar/, I novo the adoption of that resolution. MR. WALTERS: Is there a second? CAPT. B. C. M0SSI.IA1T, ROSWELL, H.M.: I would like to second that notion, Mr. Secretary. MR. WALTERS; Is thero a discussion? If not, all in favor, signify by say- ing Aye. Contrary, Ho. The Ayes have it. T^e notion. prevails unanimously. JUDGE COX: Mr. Secretary, and fellow members of thi-s convention, that con- cludes all of the resolutions that your legislative committee drew up to report at this convention. There were some one or two direct roconnondations nado by this legislative committee to the Department, on natters that they didn't fool were of a legislative nature. I thank you. MR. WALTERS: Tho Chair will now rocognize Mr. Mossnan of HGw Mexico, and Mr. McEarlane of Utah. CAPT. MOSGMAiT: I want to say, in opening these brief remarks — MR. WALTERS: You better como up here, Ca.pt. Mossnan. - 81 - ^■r CAPT. IIOSSKAIT: Thank you, sir. I have always spoken thru ay own horn. I an a free nan. I live in Hew K©xico. I on encased in the stock business. I aa not an advisor, and I hold no office, and I seek no office'. I heard this re- solution. I an very glad to see it pass. I wish you could feel .about it — and I think you d.o — as I do, that nevor in the history of our country has there "been such a aononstr.it ion of cooperation and willingness to cooperate with the beneficiaries under tho Taylor Act as is shown by the Secretory of the Interior, and this noblest old Korean of thon all: Secretary Walters. It has boon a won- derful demonstration, gentlemen, of tho freedom that is accorded a pooplo, v;ho are trying to work out their own salvation under difficulty. Kore wo have tho administration of 142 million acres, and the fortunes and wel- fare of many thousands of people, and they are invested with the mechanics of self-government themselvos. I think it wore ungrateful to ignore Secretary Walters, SGcrctary Ickes, and that splendid body of men that have been provided for our guidance and direction, T^oy con not be ignored. Without their assist- ance, there would have been many stumbles in the dark, I think that resolution expresses our appreciation of tho whole lot. , This is a wonderful country, tfe cow-punchers in it — wo arc just cow punchers but we ore men, after all, and I boliove that the people are being sold on this Taylor Act, and they are being sold core and more every day, and I think we aro being especially soil en Mr. Carpenter and on /that oo^r of fine men that have been provided for our guidance. Thank you. MR. WALT3RS; Mr. McFarlane. Would you 'care to come up on the platform, where they use the artificial horn, or your own? MR. J. M. MacFARLAiE OF UTAH: I think I will follow "Cap" Hossman, and blow my own horn. Mossmnn and I wore on the range, where we had to mako them hear on the other end, before they had telephones, so we cultivated voices that car- ried, and I hope that I can do that today. I have a resolution here that I want to present. It was given to mo by a commit- tee composed of tho ton Wcstorn states. This comes spontaneously. Nobody asked for iflt. But they thought, inasmuch as Utah was host to this body, that I should present it. So I an going to read this resolution: "Whereas, tho Socretary of tho Interior Harold L. Ickes has soon fit to call this tho Second Annual Conference, of the District Advisor-' Board from the ton western states, to confer with each othoranC tho Department on the rules and regulations governing tho public domain, thereby insuring a greater local autonomy; therefore "Be it resolved: That we commend tho Secretory for his special interest in ad- ministration of tho Taylor Grazing Act by sending out the First Assistant Secre- tary, Mr. T. A. Walt or a, and wo most heartily enjoyed and approved his splendid address given us tho first morning of the conference held in Salt Lake City and we feel that tho Secretary could not have done anything better to cement tho good- will of the western livestock men than to send a man who has been born .and brod in the West here to represent him at this conference. "Wo further commend the Socretary on the splendid choice he made in appointing Mr« F. R. Carpenter as Director of Grazing and wo sincerely hope that Mr. Carpenr ter call remain with us until this Administration of the Taylor Bill has been ' ^thoroughly put on a firm foundation and pcrmanont permits aro issued." . • ,ft Gentlemen, this represents the unanimous approval of tho ton western states, and I move its adoption. V0IC3: I second the motion. Mil. MacFAT