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U.S. CONGRESS. HOUSE. COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTS Electrical and mechanical system of voting
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ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM
OF VOTING
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS First Session
ON
H. RES. 223
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE AND INSTAL- LATION OF AN ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
4
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMKNT IMIINTINO OFFICE
IblO
ELECTRICAL A.M) MECHAxMCAL SYSTEM OF VOTIKG.
Committee on Accounts,
House of Eepresentatives,
Monday, Mcy 15, 1916.
The committee this day met, Hon. James T. Lloyd (chairman)
presiding.
^^ Tlie Chairman. We have met this morinng for the purpose of
N^having a h'^iripo; on House resolution ^ o. 223, introduced by Mr.
'K>Howard. Mr. Howard is here and we will be glad to hear from him.
Statement of hon. william s. howaed, a representa-
^ TIVE in congress from the state of GEORGIA.
y Mr. Howard. Mr. Chairman, this is a resolution introduced by me ^ at the suggestion of several of the officials of the House and many "^Members of the House. The purpose of this legif^lation is to appoint -^^ a committee to investigate the advisability of purchasing a system \J b}- which the vote of the House can be recorded accurately and more promptly than it is under the present system. During a long session 5^ of Congi-ess some mathematician, a Member of the House, figured \ the time consumed by Congress in calling the roll during that session of Con.gress, and it amounted, I think, to 56 days of that long session. That was the time consumed in roll calls. There is another e \ il about our present system, and I think the Speaker and the chairman of every ])romincnt committee in the Hjuso, and all of the old M nibers who hav e been here for years, will agree that under the ])r(^sent sys- tem the business of Congress being so great, an.d the work f allin.g upon ^ the sh()uld(n-s of Members of Congress is reaching such proportions »]s^ that it is almost im]);)ssiblc for Members to devote the time to^kgis
^
y;;j lativc matters that they should. The close proximity of the House Office Building makes it so easy for any one Member at any time, if lie desires to do it, to tie u]) the delil)erations of the House for a peri(»d extending from an hour to two hours l)y making jjoints of no ^ (juonnn.
^ I was licre over 20 years ago as private secretary to a Hen.ator. At \ that time they did not huxc any office building; the offices w( re scat- ty t<'red all over tlie town, an.d when the House*, met at 11 o'clock or ^ 12 o'clock, as it does now, all of tlie Memlx^rs would gather in the House and they would stay on the door of the House during all of the [K s(\ssion, so that it was the rarest of occurrences for a point of no ■^s quorum to be nuide and no nuorum found. I believe that if some R system ca?i be found l)y whicli we can save th'> 40 minutes which it takes to make a roll call- I believe that is the tim(», is it not, Mr. South?
Mr. South. From 10 to 1."> minutes.
45i G5S
4 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. Howard. Well, an average of 40 minutes. I believe if some system eould be found by whieh that time could be saved it would be of great benefit in carrying on the business of the House.
The Chairman. In order to protect the reading clerks, who dislike very much to have it go on record as consuming that much time, you will ])arilon me for saying that the reading clerks insist that they can call tlie roll in 25 minutes, but they nuist call the roll twice, and that accounts for it taking 40 minutes.
Mr. Howard. Yes; I mean a complete roll call; I did not mean that the roll was called once; I mean it consumes that time under our S3-stem of calling the roll a second time.
Then, another thmg is this: Inaccuracies in roll calls are obliged to occur, and for this reason: While the roll is being called there is so much confusion on the floor of the House, and it is called with such rapidity, that the tally clerks, as a rule, can hardly hear the ' responses, and the clerk can hardly hear them. As you gentlemen know from your experience in Congress there is hardly a morning, after a roll call of the previous day, that one or more gentlemen do not get up to correct the roll call. That is not so much an evil, if you may term it an evil, but it is a waste of time.
I do not believe it will be possible to have any more short sessions of Congress, because the business of this country has grown immensely in the last few years and governmental activities are increasing every day, but I do believe that we could lop off under this system, in a long session, not less than 30 days, and I am going to tell you why. Some electrical system, such as has been installed in the State Legislature of Wisconsin, and such as is presented to the Members here for their personal observation by the gentleman who has this electrical device here, will not only save at least 30 minutes on each roll call, but I believe it will have a tendency to keep Members on the floor of the House, and keep them on the floor from the time the House meets until it adjourns. And there is where we lose our time.
Mr. Hicks. You propose to economize in time by the use of this system and you think that will preclude Members from taking the time to come over to the House on each roll call ?
Mr. Howard. Yes; that is it. For instance, I understand that under this device not only can the Members vote, but the vote being counted automatically by some system which is on the Speaker's desk, a little meter, will be known almost at once, the ayes and nays and those present. This system, as I understand it, contemplates each man having a key to vote with and nobody else can vote for him. It is perfectly accurate, and if a man wants to change his
vote
Mr. Hicks (interposing). You contemplate, then, domg away entirely with the necessity of a Member coming from the House Office Building to the House to vote, which will save at least four or five minutes ?
Mr. Howard. Yes; absolutely. We could have a rule that, say, five minutes after the question has been put the ballot shall be closed.
Mr. Hastings. That would have to be by rule of the House? Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Of course, this system would not be worth a penny if wo were going to allow 40 or 50 minutes for Mem- bers to come in and record their votes.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 5
Mr. Miller. Last year experiments, I understand, showed that 10 minutes should be the hmit.
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir. Mr. Walsh, of New Jersey, who is an electrician and who was a Member of the last House, made a thorough investigation of an electrical system. I believe he was an expert electri(!ian, and Mr. Wnlsh figured that at least 25 minutes on each roll call could be saved by this system.
Now, so far as this matter is concerned, I have given, of course, but little study to it.
The Chairman. Do you know an vthing about the cost of it ?
Mr. Howard. I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the different devices that have been suggested for use by the House ?
Mr. Howard. The only system that I know anythmg about is the one which has been suggested to Members of the House by ]\Ir. Bo])roff. I believe that experiments with it have shown that it is absohitel}" eflficient and accurate and that it is easily understood. I refer to the s^^stem which has been ])resented to Members of the House in the old Ways and Means Committee room by Mi-. Bobroff.
Tlie Chairman. You mean the system which is here to-da}'^ ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir; and that sytem, it occurs to me, would serve every purpose, and it would amount to a saving of days, if not weeks, during every session of Congress.
Mr. Hicks. Do you contemplate taking out the present seating arrangement and restoring the desks?
Mr. Howard. I do not know what would be best to do under those circumstances.
Mr. Hastings. Would not that be necessary with this device that you have here?
Mr. Howard. Well, if Members felt that they had to do their own work while they were on the floor of the House, if they had to do a great amount of writing by virtue of staying right on the floor within the sound of the gong, then, of course, we would have to have some different system than now exists.
Tlie Chairman. There are two reasons which account for the fact that we have no quorum. One is the fact that desks have been taken out of the House of Representatives, and the other fact is that we have electric b(>lls.
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir.
The Cilmrman. Prior to the time of the installation of the ]>resent >oating system, when every man liad his own desk and his own seat, we liad no electric bells, and there was a quorum on every important occasion. The question of no quorum was seldom, if ever, raised, and tlierc was no oer.-ision to rais(> it, because there was a quorum pre-;ent.
Mr. Howard. Tliat is true.
The CiiAirtMAN'. But getting back to the other thing, you realize, pcrli!i|)s, as evervl)ody else (hx-s, that it would he nhnosl impossible to elumge the present system so iis to avoid using the eh'ctric hells; we hfive got the electrir bells and people are tising them, and I sup- pose* it woidd be an im|)ossil)le thing to s(H-ure a nnijority vote in favor of doing away with the electric-bell system, and yet the electric- bell system lias done more to disorgnni/e (he Hmmc fh.in anv (me thing that ever happened.
6 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
"Mv. lIowAKi). I will say this, that in the last Congress I introduced a resolution to abolish the second roll call.
Mr. Miller. What about the man whose name is at the lirst part of the alphabet?
Mr. Howard. The proposition was to serve the very purpose that this system is devised to serve. I can remember, and so can every other* Memlier of the Sixty-second Congress, when we were havirg quite a number of fights on the floor, that points of ro (piorum would be nuule three or four or five times a day in order to assist in carrying on a filibuster. As a nnvtter of fact, it would (k^velop every time the point of no quorum was made that no ([uoruni was present, and that necessitated calling the roll, and we would ac('om{)lish practically nothing that day. I admit that sometimes the power of th(^ fihbuster is a ver}^ valuable adjunct, esi)ecially to the minority, ard I am will- ing to admit that it would probably k,^ep a good many Members of the House from doing things during the sessions of the House that they are now' doing, that is, in the way of office work. But we gen- erally meet at 11 or 12 o'clock; that is the general rule during ordi- nary sessions of Congress. I do not k low^ a body of men with whom I have ever come in contact who are harder work'n's than Members of Congress — it is absolutely necessary for tluun to keep steacUly at work or get irretrievably behin.d.
The Chairman. What have you to say as to whether or not the system you suggest would preserve the rights of the minority at all times ? As you know, one of the rights of the minority is the right of filibuster.
Mr. Howard. Yes; it is a right, in a sense, under parliamentary procedure, but at the same time it is a question whether that right is always exercised for the best interests of the country.
Tne Chairman. We kaow it is not, because a man who makes a poi'^t of order does it out of some pique.
^Ii\ Howard. Precisely.
The Chairman. It is not because of any public good that is to be served by it. Nearly every roll call that we have, every time a point of order is made, it is because some Member is a little bit piqued.
Mr. How^ard. It is to force a compromise, as a rule.
The Chairman. Yes. A man who wants to speak is not allowed to speak, and then he makes the House pay for it, and he can do it very readily.
Mr. Howard. That is true. How^ever, the question simply re- solves itself into this: That this committee present it to the House if they think it is worthy and say: Do we want to economize the time of Congress? If we do, something of this sort should be adopted. Since the reapportionment was made the membership of the House has increased, as you know, and the number will continue to increase as the country growls; if I live my allotted time I expect to see 600 Members on the floor of the House. That being so, we have got to get away from the antiquated system of roll call ; we have got to have some system of recording the will of the House more rapidly than we have under the present system. There is no question about that, and it is a fact that now we can hardly attend, and we do not attend, to the small affairs of the Government as we should attend to them for the simple reason we have no time.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 7
Mr. Miller. What do you say about the constitutional provision as to certain classes of resolutions and bills or veto messages, that there shall be a roll call by the clerk, and the vote actually determined by yeas and nays ?
Mr. Ho^VARl). Well, under those conditions, of course, we would have to comply with that provision.
Mr. Hicks. Just what do you refer to ?
Mr. Miller. You mi^^ht have to have a roll call, for instance, under Article I, section 7, of the Constitution.
Mr. Hicks. But this system would record the vote.
Mr. Miller. I have heard that point raised about this very matter.
The Chairman. That raises this question: What constitutes a roll call i Those who advocate that theory insist that it is not a roll call unless the name of the individual has been pronounced aloud and he has had an opportunity to reply, but I do not think that would be the construction of the courts. A roll call is the ascertainment for the record of how each individual desu'es his vote to be cast. It could very easily be handled under the rules, I suppose, by having the rules properly amended.
Mr. Howard. There is another phase right here that I would hke to mention to this committee, because I know you gentlemen are experi- enced. There have been many bills passed by the House by viva voce on which I would hke very much to have been recorded, in writing, if necessary. I would hke to have shown how I felt about the matters and wheth(>r I was either in favor of or against them. I liave been retarcknl in my zeal to be recorded for the simple reason that Mem- bers want to economize in time. But under this system, if we wanted to be recorded, so much time would not be taken. A man would say to himself: This is an important measure and I would hke to have my peo])le know exactly how I stand on the proposition. And if it would only tak? about five minutes most all of the Members would be wiUing to submit to a record vote.
Ui.der this system, as it has been explained to me, not only can the roll call be recorded in five minutes l)ut the o{)erator of this ma- chine can take a photograph of that roll call in 32 secoiuls, aid he can make as many of them as he wants, and he can hand one to each M( ruber if he wants it. Mr. South, who has had a great deal of experience in miking up tlie Congressional Record, mentioned to me that a great saving could l)e make by these photograi)hic records of the vote, which are made in 32 seconds.
So far as tli(^ technical construction of this machine is conceriunl, it is a wond(Mfid nia<liin(! -
Mr. llicKs (interj)osing). In what way did Mr. South suggest that a gnuit saving could be nnide (
Mr. Howard. Mr. South knows something about making up tlie Record, and he mentioned something to me about it the other day, and I would b(! glad if you would let Mr. South mak(» a statement, if lu; desires to do so, showing the |)racticability of this nnichiiu'.
The CnAiR.MAN. Wc will hear Mr. South after you (inish your statement. Now, you fix the ainoimt at ^\^2:')^H){)'(
Mr. llowAiU). Yes, sir.
The Cmaiicmax. Have you any inri»iniat i(»n as to whal it will probably cost (
8 ELECTUrCAL AND MECliANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. lIowAKi). Only what I have gotten from the gentleman who owns the niaohino.
The CiiAiR.MAN. Are you nware that Mr. Walsh, in presenting the matter in the last Congress, suggested that tlie device could be put in for §25,000?
Mr. Howard. I am not aware of that; no. That is an opinion that I know nothing about, and I would rather have you hear from those who know.
Mr. Miller. Is this the same device in which Mr. Walsh was interested last year?
Mr. HowAKD. No; it is an entirely different one.
Mr. Miller. Is it patented?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Hicks. Mr. Walsh's resolution appears on page 3 of the hearing of July 31, 1914, and the amount carried in the resolution is $20,000.
The Chairman. You authorize, by this resolution, the purchase and installation of this device. You make that positive ?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
The Chairman. And you authorize a commission to be appointed to make a selection of the device ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hicks. Of course if this device is adopted it means a change in the seating arrangement of the House, and it will have to be deter- mined whether desks shall be put in. There are a lot of Members who have to have some place to do their writing, and if we could have a room somewhere on the same floor as the House chamber, where we could have little desks, it would be possible for us to carry on our correspondence, and that would obviate the necessity of having so much work done in the House Office Budding.
Mr. Howard. If we could have some place adjacent to the Hall of the House where we could have our secretaries meet with us and where we could get out emergency matters, I think that would elimi- nate the necessit}^ for desks on the floor of the House, except that there would have to be desks in the Speaker's lobby, or tables, as there are now, supplied with stationer}^ and things of that sort for our convenience.
Mr. Milt>er. That would necessitate a subofRce building, and we have not the room for it in the Capitol Building.
Mr. Howard. No; it would not mean that, because I never go to my office in the daytime. I have not been in my office a half dozen times since Christmas. I have my business systematized. I dic- tate all of my letters at night, they are written the next day, and I sign them at night. There is no necessity for my going to my office. I attend to my departmental work in the morning. But that is just 1 Member out of 100 and aU of them could and would not do that.
The Chairman. A great many of the Members simplj^ employ a stenographer here in Washington. They have them in their offices during the day and could not expect them to perform services at night. You use your secretary during the 24 hours at any time you choose, but you could not expect a stenographer employed at S50 or S60 a month to be on call at all hours, and you could not require such a stenographer to work at night.
Mr. Howard. That is true, and I admit the necessity of Members using their offices very largely.
ELECTBICAL ANT) MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 9
The Chairman. Nearly every Member of Congress uses his office and you are considerably of an exception, I think.
Mr. Howard. Well, I have my stenographer live with me, and all of that, you know, helps. That is about all, gentlemen, that I have to say.
STATEMENT OF ME. B. L. BOBROFF. OF MILWAUKEE, WIS.
The Chairman. What is 3'our name ?
Mr. BoBROFF. My name is B. L. Bobroff.
The Chairman. What is your business ?
Mr. Bobroff. Electrical and mechanical engineer.
The Chairman. ^Yhere do you live ?
Mr. Bobroff. Milwaukee, Wis.
The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in that business ?
Mr. Bobroff. About 16 years: since 1900.
The Chairman. 'Where did you obtain your education as an electrician (
Mr. Bobroff. My mechanical education I obtained in Russia, the University of Russia, and my electrical training I obtained in this country. I attended the Lewis Institute at night for two years, and for four years I attended a school of engineering in Milwaukee. I have b:M^n working for 18 months on special work with the engineer- ing staff of the University of Madison, for the Bureau of Efficiency and Econoni}', and I had charge of the water waste and electrolysis survc}^ in the city of Milwaukee. For the last four years I have been engaged in my own business as an efficiency engineer.
The Chairman. Have you any people employed under you ?
Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Robroff. Four; sometimes five or more.
The Chairman. Are you an American citizen ?
Mr. Bobroff. Yes, sir; and I have always been since the expira- tion of the first six months after I came over here.
The Chairman. ^Yliat do you mean by that?
Mr. Bobroff. I mean that I obtained my first naturalization and citizenship papers six months after I came over here, and I have been a citizen now for 11 years.
The Chairman. When did you obtain your final papers?
Mr. Bobroff. Four years afterwards.
Tlie Chairman. Have you had any experience with voting devices for legislative bodies?
Mr. BoiJROi'F. I will say that I have made a study of the roll-call question, and, not only have I made a study of it from the surface, but I have made a thorough study of the roll-call question. I did that when 1 began to work on that pi-oblem of (k'vising some means and ways whereby roll calls could be taken instantaneously instead of (^•onsuming as much time as it is doing to-day in legislative bodies.
The Chairman. Have you installed a device anywhere for carrying <tut your ideas i
Mr. BoiJHoi I . At tlic piesent time the Wisconsin State Legislature has adopted if. It adopted it at t lie last session, and W(> are installing it now.
The Chairman. But it has not yot been tested thorouglily?
10 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. BoBijOKK. No, sir; oxcoi)( that I (loinonstrated it with several units. There were 17 members of the joint finance committee and 11 members of the judiciary committee, the committee which introduced- the bill, and both committees unanimously voted to adopt it. I will say with reference to this device, that if one unit works, 1,000 units or an infinite number of units will work. They have no relationship between one another, but they are just as you see them there. There- fore, it does not make any diirerence whether you have one unit or a lumih'ed units, or any number of units, they have got to work.
Mr. MiLLEiL Well, how many will you use in the Wisconsin Legislature ^
^Ir. BoBHOFF. One lunuh'cd, exactly.
Mr. Hicks. Do you know of any other legislative bodies in which any other devices are in use for roll-call purposes?
Mr. BoBKOFF There is none in the United States.
Mr. IIiCKs. Of any manufacture '?
Mr. BoBKOFF. No, sir; there is none.
The Chairman Arc there any in use in any other countries?
Mr. BoBKOFF. I have been trying to find out about that. Some people say that it is used in France, but I have never gotten to the point where I could get any dehnite information. However, I doubt it. It may be true, but this much I can say, that from the researches I have made in England and Germany I have not found anything. As a matter of fact, 1 have obtained patents in France. I have obtained basic patents on that principle in France and in Germany and in England, and if there had been any device along that line, they would not have granted me that patent. Therefore, I assume that there is none.
Mr. Hastings. When will the installation be completed in Wis- co.'isin ?
Mr. BoBROFF. We have until next December, but the entire propo- sition largely depeivls upon our getting son^e material which we have to obtain for that purpose. It has a good deal to do with the war. The gentlemen owning the concern from which we n ust obtain the matcn-ial are very busy, and this takes a great deal of time. However, I contemplate that the thing will be ready in 120 days.
The Chairman. Suppose you explain in your own w'ay what you will install on the floor of the House. Explain in your own way how you will install the device.
Mr. BoBROFF. Last year that resolution was introduced by Con- gres.-mm Walsh, and you will see from the hearings held at that particular time that Mr. Walsh did not have anything definite wath reference to the device. He assumed that son^e device could be gotten up and made to work. When 1 heard of that resolution I hafl been working for (piite a number of years u?)on a device M^hich had that very ])rinciple. I wrote on here, and it was suggested in reply that I come on and show what I had. When I came here some suggestions were made by Mr. Clark, Mr. LTndcrwood, and some other gentlemen. I think the chairman also made some suggestions as to the purpf)se it would serve, and as to what would be de, minded of me if I should want to install it in a legislative body. I have incorporated a}\ of it here, I think. I take as a basis the vacant panels adjacent to the Speaker's (h'sk. There is a vacant panel on the Democratic side and a vacant panel on the Republican side of the House. I have to
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 11
provide for 450 or 460 nances. That space, I think, is about 10 feet hy 0 feet, or something Uke it, and I have divided it into so many units. Then I have ctesigned a letter of that size [hidioating], so that you wouki be able to see it from every part of the Hall. I have put it up there. Mr. South helped me at that time to put it up in order that we might see just what Avas the proper size. It worked out most satisfactorily. It is just as you see it there, and if you should have 435 or 450 names, you could put it in that space there.
Mr. Hicks. How much would that be — half of it?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; all of it. It is on either side. Then, I con- template this, putting one board on the Democratic side of the House and one board on the Republican side of the House, so they can all see it. They would be duplicates, and whatever there is on one side should be on the other side. Instantly everybody can see how each individual Member has voted.
Mr. Howard. That means you would have 870 units?
Mr. BoBROFF. Substantially 900 units.
Mr. Howard. That, of course, would be one of the elements of cost, because each part is a separate and distinct unit, with each unit performmg the same function.
Mr. Hicks. Does that bring it up high enough?
Mr. South. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBROFF. Some objections were made to the effect that you have no desks. I will explain that, because I want to go into every detail, so far as the installation is concerned, and to show you how it will be possible to make it absolutely practical. It is not necessary to have any desks. You can put this right on a chair, or next to a chair, or at any convenient place. It would, of course, necessitate the numbering of the chairs, but they are numbered already. Each individual Member would draw a seat number. Then there might come up the question that they would have to go to their seats in order to vote, but I contemplate, in order to make it still more con- venient, to have other voting stations at convenient places in the Hall. There might be six or eight, and there is ample space in which to put them, l^or mstance, you might locate some in the Hall next to the cloakroom on the Democratic side and Republican side. If you wanted to vote there you could take out your key, unlock it, press the button, aiul vote.
Mr. MiLLf':i{. Would you provide there a vothig place for every Member of tiie Housed
Mr. BoRRoiF. There would be so many stations provided on the Republican side, and lik(!wise so many on the Democratic side.
Mr. Miller. That, of course, would increase the cost and necessi- tate; a j)lace for each Member at these substations?
Mr. lioBHOFF. Ye-;, sir: but it would maki* it more coincnient. It is like electric ligiits. Wiien electric lights canu* into use they were mor(! expensive than gaslights, and gaslights were more ex])ensive than eandleJight, but we would not want to go back to candleligiit. This, of co!irse, is a matter of time siving and convenience, and it must actually be charged uj) to (;ost plus tiu' actual cost, of installa- tion. Th(! cost, of course, increases as you increase the accommoda- tions in this respect.
The Chairman. If you provide two voting places, one on the desks and one for use at other places in the Hall, would the cost be twice as much ?
12 FXECTKICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir. I %ure it this way: If that system goes in horo, it has got to be the very best in America, and the very best that can be mad>. That is my ui->a, and I know if I got this dsvice in here, mv record is made. " I would not have it anything else but the very best, and 1 have figured it out so as to make the thing absolutely complete in every detail.
Mr. Hicks. Vou have sonu^ method, 1 suppose, by which the Clerk can vote a Member's nanu>?
Mr. BoBHOFF. No, sir.
Mr. Hicks. \\^iy not? vSupposc Mr. Miller, Mr. Howard; and I should come up here and forget our keys, and a roll call should take place, could we not get the Clerk and ask him to vote for us ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; the Clerk would give you a duplicate key.
Mr. Hicks. A master key ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; "a (hiph(;ate key. With a master key, voting could be done from any station: but there would be no chance for any unautliorizcd voting" with a duplicate key. If you have a duplicate k(>y, that will olimmate every possible difficulty.
Mr. Hicks. What arrangement do you provide for keeping the duplicate keys ?
Mr. BoBROFF. The Clerk has the duplicate keys.
Mr. Howard. He keeps the duplicate kej^s under lock and key ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
'Sir. Howard. He keeps that key and would give it to you when necessary ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Millp:r. Do you care to tell us what arrangements were made for the Wisconsin Legislature ? Do they have subvoting stations ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; they have d;sks there, and really they do not give them any time on a' call of the roll unless it is a call of the liouse. Then they send for them. Otherwise they vote if they are there and they have not made any provision for voting away from the desks.
Mr. Miller. Do you have this arrangement (the recording panel) in the hall there ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; this aiTangement has been placed in the center of the gallery, at a place where it was very convenient for us, and it reduced the cost greatly.
Mr. Miller. Do you care to teU what was the cost of the installa- tion in the Wisconsin Legislature?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir. I will show you a little drawing I have here.
The Chairman. Descri))e that so the reporter can make it clear in the hearings.
Mr. BoBROFF. A board has been placed in the center of the gallery. The ornamental railing has been cut out, and an ornamental bronze frame has been substituted. You can see a part of the ornamental work here [indicating]. We have nothing to do with any of the changes whatsoever. TTie changes in the gallery, the changes in the structure, the ornamental frame, the iron frame, and aU of the neces- sary reconstruction work in the building were done by the Wisconsin commission tliat has charge of the construction of the capitol building. We put in our units in the right place for them, and we get from them $11,600 for 100 units, $106 per unit. Now, we knew
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 13
when we started on that job that we would not make an}^ money, and the reason for domg that was simply to prove conclusively the practicability of the device, as would be done in any other business proposition, Tliat is the only reason why we are installing 100 units there for SI 1 ,600. Any other State legislature of that size or number would have to pay not less than S25,000. By adding up the cost of the ornamental work, the reconstruction work, and evervthing else, the cost there will amount to S16,000 or S17,0q0, or about S170 per unit. That will be about the actual cost of installing the system with 100 names. Here 1 contemplate that all the requirements, and to do all the reconstruction work necessar}", and to do all the necessary ornamental work to beautify and make it in harmony with the Chamber would be included in this SI 25,000.
Mr. Miller. There would have to be some people here to take care of it. Would we have to employ some electricians trained in the workings of this system ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; there are a great number of electricians employed here. The device in itself is very durable, and it will re- quire very little attention. Just to give you an idea of how little attention it will require I will say that this machine you see before you has made approximately 90,000 roU calls. Now, how much time clo you suppose it would require for Congress to take 90,000 roll calls ? There would not be that many in 100 years, at least, or probably in 200 years. Take, for instance, the Sixty-second Congress, which was the longest Congress so far as roU calls are concerned, and you will see that that machine can do 200 years' work. I know positively that it never went \\Tong. There is no question but that the main- tenance part of it would be a very small matter annually.
The Chairman. Would it not be necessary to have a good practical electrician to look after that device ?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir.
Mr. SouTfi. There are a half a dozen men in the building who could do it.
Mr. BoBROFF. They have a good many men here, and I know they are very caj)able. They are already here.
The Chair.man. Do you think that Mr. Woods's force is sufliciontly well posted in this kind of work to make any repairs that would bo necessary to be made on this device^
Mr. BoHROFF. You could pick any man you want for that. You could take u man without any electri<;al training, and Ic^t me have him just one we(^k and 1 will inak(^ an expert of tiiat man on that partic- ular dcviciv
Mr. llASTiN'(is. Have you thought about the cost of changing tho names when the, memb(^rship of tlie Houses changes^
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; and L will show you how that is done. Suppose, for instance, Mr. P'itzgerald is defeated; you simply take this out [indiciitingl, vva^o this luiine [indicating], and print tho other name on it. Y«>u would put the sauu^ |)lates back in its proper pt si- tiori.
Mr. Sornr. And give tiie nr.w man his k(\v.
Mr. BonijoKF. Yes, sir; that is all th<M-(^ is to it.
Mr. IlowAKi). The lu^w man would ((Mtie in and got that key?
Mr. Ijohkokf. Yes, sir.
14 El.T'.CTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Tho CiiAiKMAX. Is it vour id >a to have tho list of names appear in alphabetical oi-aor, or should they appear in the order of the States?
^Ir. BoiiHOFF. I would sugg A^t that it would be best to have them app nir bv States. -, n a- j. ■ .
The Chairman. Then, when the Member from the hrst district gv^s out, all that is necessary is to tak'^, off the name "James T. Lhn-d" and put in the name of his successor.
Ml-. BoBKOFF. Yes, sir; that is why I suggest it be arranged by
Stat'S. . • 1 i
The Chairman. Is there any further explanation you wish to
make about it ?
Mr. Howard. Is this apparatus connected up now ?
Mr. BoBuoFF. I do not know whether it is or not. I doubt it; I did not ha \ e time enough to test it out.
Tlie Chairman, is there any other further explanation you desire to make ?
Mr. BoBROFF. One thing I want to say is this: I want to go into the hearing of last vear of Mr. Walsh for the reason that I want to point out to you a clifferencc in the conditiors cxistirg at that time and now. They did not prov'ide for anything s])ecihc or definite, a^td the er.tire proposition at that time was nothing but a guess. When the chairman asked Mr. Walsh, "Your resolution docs not speci.ically pro side for anything at all?" Mr. Walsh answered, ".o. sir." i^urther, when Mr. Ten Eyck stated that Mr. Walsh did not provide for making changes in votes, Mr. Walsh replied that ''This could be done and that it will hare to be done just as it is now, and that there is not any electrical way by which it could be done, and that the mists: k^s would ha.e to be'corrected when it is taken off the record." Txien Mi\ Ten Eyck pointed out at that time that Mr. Walsh did not pros ide in any way whereby mistakes could be detected and corrected by the Member; that under his outline each Member would ha.e four buttons to manipulate and many mistakes would be sure to hap,>(>n. All this I simply point out to pro v'C my conten- tion that Mr. VValsh's statement as to the cost of nistalling an elec- trical voting system could not be taken authoritatively.
I am proving to you conclusively that my system of voting is absolutely complete in every d'tail. It provid' s not only tho means of taking a roU call instantaneously but it also adds and records the vote of every member and shows just how he voted on a qu«^stion; it also provides the means whereby a Member can correct his vote if he happens to change his mind, or if he makes a rristakc. This is done automatically; it is dou'^ just as soon as the Member touches ih.-' button which is provide d for that purposn. I want to emphasize this particular point, because Mr. Walsh stated before your committee that this cou!d not be done.
Further, when a Meiiber is voting he can see from his voting place how he voted, and the same vote wiU duplicate itself on a largo board adjacent to his name, where everyone else can see. In short, this system is provided with all the means that practical legislation can demand.
Taking the statement of Mr. Underwood that this system of voting wou'd save at least $50,000 a year in light, heat, telephone and tele- graph service, I might add th;it there are other important savings which would be made by the means of this system, namely, the salary
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 15
ol the ironthly employees, and printing the roll calls, etc., which would he greatly reduced. In other words, this system would pay for itself in one year. Also the convenience to the Members must he considered. Taking the Sixty-second Congress as a demonstration, where 55 legislative days were spent in calling the roll, with this system in existence 50 out of the 55 could have been saved, or it woukl have been possible for you to sdjourn two months sooner. Therefore, as I sav, you can not take the conditions existing at the tin:e of Mr. Walsh's presentation of this matt'n- fs a brsis for this. In the first place, Mr. Walsh, wh^i he introduced that resolution, positively stated that he did not have anything definite, and he stated on page 12 of this hearing, "If it is not a good thing you are going to lose S20,000." That is what Mr. Walsh said. We might know the exact cost or approximately the exact cost of our system with this exception: We know that since last year material has increasnd in cost from 100 to 500 per cent. In this case, however, we did not multiply this price by four or five hundred per cent, but we wiU have a yory small margin of profit on that device.
Mr. MiLLETf. Of course, the question of price will come up in the discussion of this matter. Suppose you reduce the number of units to one having only one panel and no substations for voting. Would that considerably change the ])rice named in the Howard resolution?
Mr. BoBROFF. It would, and that is the reason I think the best way to do it is to provide for all the accommodations necessary, and leave it to a commission.
Mr. Miller. I want to know how much it would reduce the price.
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; it would reduce it.
Mr. Miller. But you can not say off'-hand how much?
Mr. BoBROFF. No, sir; but it would reduce it very considerably. Therefore. I think the best way to do would l)e to leave it to a com- mission to decide. If the commission has had ample experience along legislative lines, they can determine wliat is best, so far as actual installation i^ concerned. I personally would submit three difTerenb plans, and let them make their own choice about it.
Ml'. Hicks. How nmch space would you want for the 450 units?
Mr. BoBROFF. Ninety scjuare feet would be ample room.
The Chairman. Can you say what material would go in to the installation ?
Mr. BoPROFF. Taking, the Wisconsin Legislature installation as a basis, according to tlie way 1 figured it out, in order to make it right, there would be in different si/.ed wires approximatelv 70 miles or about 309, GOO feet.
'I'he Cmaik.nlw. AVliat kind of wire?
Mr. BoiutoFK. Different kinds of wire.
Tne CiiAUOLW. How much of it would be copper wire?
Mr. BoBROFF. All of it would he coj)per wire.
Mr. vSouTH. And it would be insulated like this [indicating].
The (.'iiAiRMAN. All of it would b(^ insulated ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; and in conduits. All of that wire would be in concbiits. Not a single wire could be seen.
The CiiAiR.MAN. What cliarige has llu're been in IIk^ price of cojijxu" recently {
Mr. iioBROFF. I can not say wlmt the change has beiiu nicently
The CHAHt.^fA.\. Well, within the last two years?
16 ELECTRICAL .\ND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
Mr. BoBKOFF. I should say that the price has doubled, at least, if not more than doubled.
The Chairman. Have there been any objections made to this device^ What objections have been urged to itj
Mr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any objections to it.
Mr. ;Miller. Was there any opposition to the adoption of the device in the Wisconsin Legislature?
:Mr. BoBROFF. The bill passed by a vote of 51 to 23, and each one of the 23 voted against it simply l)ecause they had pledged themselves not to make any new appropriations that year, and this was the only new appropriation passed by the Wisconsin Legislature at that time. That is the only reason they gave for voting against it that I know of.
The Chairman. Wliat 1 was trying to get at was to know the answer to the objections that may have been urged against the device.
Mr. BoBROFF. I have not heard of any objection. I think one member told me that the voting was too fast now. I presume that objection was that if they voted any faster they would flood the country with legislation. Now, I am glad that I have the opportunity to answer that question, and the answer is that as long as the legisla- tive bodies are in session, they will have that long to pass legislation, and the quicker they get through and adjourn, the less chance there will be for passing legislation that may not be desirable. It will enable them to get through quicker by this system.
Mr. Miller. Is it a corporation that owns the patent?
Ml-. BoBROFF. It is a corporation at the present time. Gentle- men, I am taking the facts from this report, and I find it stated that it consumes approximately 45 minutes to call the roll. Now, this de- vice will enable you to take the roll call at any speed you may desire. It enables you to take the roll caU at any speed that you may deter- mine is the proper speed.
The Chairman. Suppose you wanted to take it in two minutes?
Mr. BoBROFF. You could take it in 34 seconds.
The Chairman. Then, how long would you wait before taking the second roll call?
Mr. BoBROFF. Thirty-four seconds after the first vote. You can make a permanent record there, and can see how the vote has been recorded, and then take the second vote.
The Chairman. Do you think it would be possible to take 25 votes in 75 minutes, one right after the other, and announce each vote ?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir; just as quick as they can talk; if they can talk as fast as I can, they could.
Mr. :Miller. This takes a copy of the roll call, and you make from it afterwards the copy for the records?
Mr. BoBROFF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Miller. It registers at the Speaker's desk the result of the vote?
Mr. BoBROP^F. Yfs, sir; it registers the result of the vote at the Speaker's desk. Then you cm make a chr.nge in your vote. Sup- pose, for instance, you vote aye on a question, and then change your mind j nd w- nt to vote no. At the present time you have to wait until the roll call is taken before changing 3^0 ur vote, and then ask permission to ch* n^:e your vote. By means of this system, however, you are indeper.d nt of that. If you make a mistake, you can change it from one column to the other. It does not make any record what-
ELECTRICAL AND MECHAXICAL SYSTEM OF VOTIXG. 17
soever until the vote is finally closed, ar.d then it makes the perma- nent record showing how each individual ^Memhc r voted. At the present time, if you come in ht If a minute late, it is necessary for you to wait mitil the next roll c; U, or if you come in too soonj you have to wait until your name is reached; but by means of this system it is possible for you or any individual Member to come m at any time and press the button and vote. Then, when you have voted you can go away.
The Chairman. Suppose I come in and want to know, for instance, how Mr. Mann has voted i
Mr. BoBROFF. You can look at the board and see how he voted.
Mr. Hicks. How do you change the number of the bill ?
Mr. BoBROFF. The nmnber of the bill or resolution is permanent, })Ut these f'gures [mdicatingl are slidable. We have a dupHcate set of letters and numbers.
Mr. Hicks. You have a combination of numbers i
Mr. BoBEOFF. Yes, sir. This is simply a demonstration of it. Tlie entire proposition is made up of such a combination that 5'ou can Ciuickh' change the numbers.
(Thereupon, the committee proceeded to the consideration of other business, after which it adjourned.)
Committee on xVccounts,
HocsE of Representatives,
TTimsday, May 25, 1916. The committee this day met, Hon. James T. Lloyd (chairman) pre- siding.
Mr. LLe)YD. The conmiittee will com.e to order. Mr. Garner, will you please state to the committees your views with reference to a voting device for the House of Representatives?
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN N. GARNER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS.
Mr. Garner. Mr. Chairman, at your suggestion 1 came by this morning to give the committee my views as to the wisdom of adopting this syst(»m
The Chairman (interposing). Or a system?
Mr. Garner. Yes; a system similar to this; something that will faciJitato the calling of the roll. I beliciVi! this is the system whicli has been on exhibition in the ^^'ays and Means Committee room for some tim<\ 1 have gorus there onco or twice and liad this gent,l<'man, I think, explain its workings to nu\ I do not know whether this is the best systi^m or not, but I do want to speak just a word in behalf of some system that will facililalc getting record votes in the House. Two policies, 1 think, should Ix- paramont in adopting any rules of tlu^ llous<s of Kepr<'s<'ntatives or any nu'fhod by wliich to accomplish thos(s two policies. One is tlu^ facilitation of business and tlie other is giving tnc minority an opporf unity to be heard and to put the majority on record wlienever it is desired. Those* two pr()|)ositions,
44.5.=} »— 10 2
/
18 ELKCTRICAI. ANO :\rKCUA>: ICAL SYSTEM OF VOTlNCi.
it occurs to ni<\ almost solve the ])robl(Mn of lc<yislation, and this system helps in both dir<M'tioiis. I would not advocate this or any other device to facilitate th<> transaction of business in the House if it took away from the minority any rit:;ht whatever that it now has. But this device will not take away, from the mmority either an opportunity to be heai'd oi' an op])ortunity to secure a record vote. As a matter of fact, it will add to the opportunity of the minority to secure a record vote on many things on which thoj'^ can not now secure such a vote, because it takes too much time.
Mr. MiLLEH. Does that mean that th(> rules might hv changed so that we could get a recoi'd vote in the Committee^ of the Whole?
Mr. Garner. That is a matter, of course, that will be worked out later on. It was not my intention to discuss that phase of it, but if such a scheme could b(> worked out I would be mighty glad to see it adopted, because I have been here long enougb to see legislation put on bills in th;^ C{uumitte<> of the Whole that the majority of the House was not in favor of, but no rvH'ord vote could be demanded. If you could get a record vote in the Committee of the Whole you would add one more feature that would be anything but detrimental and you would accomplish something that is now detrimental in the consid- eration of measures in the Committee of the Whole, to wit, keeping a quorum.
Mr. Park. Did I understand vou to sav vou would take out the bells?
Mr. Garner. Yis; I would not give the Mend)ers an opportunity to know when a roll w^as going to be called.
Mr. Park. I am not in favor of that.
Mr. Garner. I know you are not, but I am. I am in favor ot some method which will keej) Members on the floor of the House of Repre- sentatives, and if those bells were taken out the opportunity to know W'hen there was a roll call would be taken away and the Members w^ould be compelled to stay there.
Ml'. Edwards. As a matter of fact, you could keep the bells in, could you not ?
Mr. Garner. Oh, yes: but I do not want to discuss that feature of it. I want to call the attention of the committee to the advantage of facihtating roll calls in the House, both to the majority and to the minority, and I do not want to discuss the matter from any other standpoint. I have mentioned these other matters because some of the gentlemen have suggested them. It may be said that such a system would operate against the rights of the minority, but I do not think that is so. The object of the majority is to facilitate the pas- sage of bills and see to the carrying out of its program. The object of the minorit}' is to criticize, if it deems proper, the majority's pro- gram, and to get record votes on such measures as it deems advisable. It occurs to me that this is advantageous to the majority in carrying out its program and it is advantageous to the minority in getting a larger number of record votes on any proposition it desires. I be- lieve it is good both for the minority and for the majority to adopt some system similar to this.
Mr. Miller. You say it woubl keej) peoj)le on th<^ floor more than the present system does ?
Mr. Garner. I do not mean that this particular system would; no.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 19
Ml-. Miller. I mean, suppose a large number of the Members were on the floor would it not be difficult to keep order ? Would not pandemonium reign as it does many times under the present system?
Mi\ Garner. Probably, but this would not necessarily make any change with reference to staying on the floor of the House, because even with this system the bells would ring and Members would be given an opportunity to come to the House from th(^ Office Building the same as now.
Mr. KoNOP. The Members would be allowed a certain length of time to get to the House (
Mr. Garner. Yes, sir. It could be tested in order to ascertain how long it should take for the Members to come from the Offiee Building to answer a roll call. This system is to facilitate the trans- action of business on the floor of the House, and would in no degree, as I see it, take away from the minority its two paramount purposes, to wit, the criticism of the majority and putting them on record with reference to certain measures.
Mr. KoNOP. Do you tliink it would be a violation of the Constitu- tion to adopt this plan?
Mr. Garner. I had not thought about that phase of it. but I do not see just how it could.
Mr. KoNOP. Where the Constitution ])rovides for a yea-and-nay vote
Mr. Garner (interposing). That would be registered.
Mr. KoNOP (continuing). It is contemplated that the name of each Member shall be called and that each Member shall answer yea or nay.
Mr. Garner. I can hardly think that would be the construction by the Su])reme Court. 1 imagine the Sui)reme Court would consider the result, and if the journal showed it was a yea-and-nay vote, that there were so many \eas and so many nays, that the Suprciine Court would not go back of those vote's to ascertain whethei the Members voted by answering to their names or by registering through a device of this kind. 1 hardly think the Supreme Court would go back of the journal to ascertain just whether a man's voice registered his vote or whether his thund) i-egistered his \-ote. .1 had not thought about that phase of it.
Mr. KoNOP. I do not think so cil her. and I jnst asked liial ijucstion to get your o])inion about it .
Mr. Gaknki{. 1 think tliat is ahuut all 1 wish to say. I came by this morning at the suggestion of Mr. Lloytl to say what has occurred to my mind as tiie advantages of this system in facilitating business on the ])art of the majority an(l giving the minority efjual o))])()rtunity to be lieard and n greater o])])ort unity to ])ut the luajonly on record more often on iniporlant measincs.
'I'he CnAMt.MAX. .Mr. Garrett has given this proposition a great deal of attention and I am anxious that he shall be heard.
STATEMENT OF HON. FINIS J, GARRETT, A REPRESENTA- TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE.
Mr. Garueii . .Mr. Chairman, some years ago 1 presented a resohi- tion to provide foi' an investigation into the feasibijily of installing a meclianical device for voting. That resolution was referred to tli<« Committee on Rules. Tlie (oinmittee on Rules appointed a sub- connnitlee that investigated liie matter in e(.iuiection witli the
20 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
meinbors of the Committoo on Accounts. I think it reported favor- ably. I believe it is very desirable that a system of this sort should be adopted. Just what ])articular device should be adopted I do not know. Any system thai is adopted would be an experiment in the beginning and it would hav(> to be gradually worked out to final perfection.
We are creatures of habit. Before the Office Building was con- structed the constant attendance of Members in the House was much larger than it has ever been since. Many have fallen into the habit of staying in their offices until the bells ring and then coming across to vote. That is not a desirable practice. The adoption of a system of electric voting would, after it was practiced for a little while, shorten the daily sessions of the House and Members would conform them- selves to the practice. They would do their departmental work and attend to their correspondence
Mr. Park (interposing). Will you permit a question right there?
Mr. Garrett. Certainly.
Mr. Park. Plow do you figure it would shorten the daily sessions of the House ? How can you figure that out ?
Mr. Garrett. It would do it because the necessity for it would exist. We all have so much departmental work to do and we all have so much correspondence to take care of. A device by which Members could vote immediately would, I suppose, cut out at least one-third of the time that is used in the consideration of measures on the floor. It would be a revolutionary proceeding but it would lead to good results. The gentleman from Delaware, Mr. Miller, suggested a matter to Mr. Garner a few moments ago — that is, whether it would, as I understood it, cut out teller votes.
Mr. Miller. No. Mr. Garner was saying that we might have record votes on a greater number of measures and I asked him whether there would be a change in the rules so that there could be roll-call votes in Committee of the Whole, whether that might be possible.
Mr. Garrett. Personally, I have not the slightest doubt but that would be and should be the ultimate result.
Mr. Miller. Do you think that it is always desirable — to be per- fectly frank about it — to have 200 or 300 Members on the floor when we are considering a bill like the Oregon California Railroad bill when there were only about 50 men directly interested on the floor and a hundred or more Members waiting for a vote and, of course, engaging in conversation, so that there would be a great deal of confusion if more Members were present ?
Mr. Garrett. That is under the system of voting which we have now. I think under a mechanical device voting system, where one is expecting a vote every minute, one would find better order in the House and would find that Members would be much more quiet.
The Chairman. Canyino^ out that thought, is it not true that we had much better order under the old system, when we had a ifull at- tendance, than we have now ?
Mr. Garrett. That was true before the House Office Building was constructed and when Members were in almost constant attendance.
Mr. Reilly. Was not that true because of the fact that the Mem- bers were attending to some business at their desks ?
ELECTRICAL AXD MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 21
Mr. Garrett. Perhaps that may be true-
Mr. Reilly. You do not think you could keep order if 435 Members were in attendance all the time ?
Mr. Garrett. Well, I think so, when they went there for business. Of course there would be times of passion and riot; that will always occur, but as a rule I believe the order woukl always be better with a full attendance.
Mr. Miller. Wlien a point of no (juorum is made the Members are assembling for some time, and wh(>n the doors are opened we go right on with the bill that we were considering when the point of no quorum was made, and you know how difhcult it is for the chairman or Speaker to get order for some minutes. Then when order is restored the Mem- bers who are not directly interested in the matter under consideration retire to the cloakrooms or go out into the hall, and only those who are directly interested stay on the floor, possibl}' 25 or 50.
Mr. Garrett. You are talking about the present system, and that, of coui-se, is true, as we all know. But what I undertake to main- tain is that the adoption of a mechanical voting device will change the entire system.
Mr. Miller, Would it shorten the talk ?
Mr. Garrett. And we will soon conform ourselves to that habit.
Mr. Miller. Do you think it would shorten debate and talk on measures i
Mr. Garrett. I do not know. Of course, a mechanical voting device would not have anything to do "with the question of debate.
Mr. Miller. How would it change the system of debate ( Would not the debates be just as long between roll calls and votes \
Mr. Garrett. I think it will result in the adoj^tion of rules which will not allow of that laj)S(^ of time.
Mr. Hastix(;s. Do you not think that if we were to adoi>t this voting device and all of the Members were compelled to stay on the floor of the House, that there woiUd always be some of us who would object to granting unanimous consent for extended del)ate '. When there are only 15 or 20 Members on the floor, on either side of tlie aisle, there is not so much objection to unanimous consent, whereas if we were all on the floor of the House and we were rcfpiired to remain there you would always (ind some one who would object to granting unanimous consent, and 1 think tiiat would have a tendency to cut down the length of the tl('l)ates.
Mr. Garrett. Perhaps, but 1 thiid-: il |)i(»bably would li.ixc a tench'ncy to bring about more liberal del)ale and more thoughtful consideration and attention. I think it would cause Members to give more attention to (h'bate as it goes on. 1 d(» not think it would necessarily alfect the (juestion of (h'bate or the time of (h'bate, but I do think, measuring it i)y houi"s and taking the session as a whole, that the same business could be (h)ne with probably more iibiMid (h'bate in two-thii-ds the number of hours if some sort of practicid niccharncal voting device were adopted.
Mr. KoNOP. On the (luestion of or(h'i-. if uc were to xolc on this machine do you not think that every .Member, knowing he was to mak<' a iccord vote, would probably pay more attention to what is going on in the House '.
Mr. (lARJtKT'r. \'ery (h'cidedly -.(».
Mr, KoN'OP. And I think that would re-iilt in haxiiig better order.
22 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
'
Mr. Gahhett. Decidedly so. 1 do not think there is any question about the ability of somebody to get up a mechanical device tliat will accomplish that end. Of course, if such device is adopted the rules will have to be so written as to conform to its use.
Mr. Edison, I think, in 1867 — as far back as that — invented some sort of el(M"tric voting (knace which, by the way, I think, is in use — altliough possibly not his invention— in the French Parliament, I am not sure, but T think tliere is a voting device used in the House in New York Stat(^
Mr. Koxc^p. Such a device is being used in Wisconsin.
Mr. BoBROFF. They have no device in New York now but they have such a device under consideration at the present time, because I have taken up the matter with a few Members there.
Mr. Garrett. I had the impression that possibly New York had adopted it some years ago, but I suppose I am mistaken.
Mr. Miller. I have observed that you, as chairman of the Com- mittee of the Whole, have ar hard time to get order even when there are a few members present. You have had considerable experience as chairman of the Committee of the W^hole, and I would like to ask you whether you think you would be helped by having 300 or 400 Members on the floor and whether you would not have greater diffi- culty in keeping order ?
Mr. Garrett. I do not think numbers would hurt any. The more attendance, as a rule, the better the order.
Mr. Miller. I know; but would we be the gainer by it ?
Mr. Garrett. You mean in the matter of keeping order?
Mr. Miller. Yes. If a greater number of Members were compelled to stay on the floor under this proposed system, can you not imagine the great amount of talk that would be going on all the time among the Members if
Mr. Garrett. Yes; I can imagine that, and it does not take a very vivid imagination to imagine wliat might go on. But my thought about it, Mr. Miller, is that if the Members knew they were going to have to vote say within five minutes or within 10 mintues on even the question of closing debate, or on any one of the numerous questions that arise, that there realh' would result better order. Of course, that is a guess.
Mr. Miller. I am asking for your opinion because you have had so much experience as chairman of the Committee of the Whole.
Mr. Garrett. As I stated in the beginning, we are creatures of habit, and we have habituated ourselves to the practices under the present system of voting; when we have a new system we will habitu- ate ourselves to that practice also. Is seems to me that it is very desirable, and if I may venture this further statement, I think that the adoption of this system would lead in the end, and very quickly^ to the abolishment of teller votes in Committee of the Whole and that there would be record votes in the Committee of the Whole. I think that is very desirable. The Senate of the United States does not have any teller votes. Whcniever they vote they go on record.
Mr. Reilly. What progress would you make if you had to stop every little while and take a 10-mhiute record vote?
Mr. Garrett. You need not take a 10-niinute record vote under a mechanical voting device system; you can get it in two minutes or less — at least I understand from electricians that such is possible.
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 23
Mr. Reilly. If you arc goin": ti) allow a coitain length of time for a man to come over to the House to answer a roll eall umler this system it seems to me you ought to give him the same right in Committee of the Wliole.
Mr. Garrett. I want to state to you that if a satisfactory electrical voting system shoukl he adopted and I should have anything to do w^ith the drafting of a rule to conft)rm to that system I would not favor giving ten minutes to Memhei-s to get there. The main thing which I think can be accomplished by the adoption of an electric voting system is the savmg of time. If you are going to give Mem- bers time to get there I do not know but that the present pei-sonal voice system might just as well remain as any other.
Mr. Reilly. You would always -^ave from 20 to '.io minutes.
Mr. Garrett. But I do not think that is so very im])ortant.
Mr. Lenroot. Even if you gave them 10 minutes in the House there would be no occasion for giving them any time in the Committee of the ^^^lole except the necessary time to vote.
Mr. Garrett. That is all, of course.
Mr. Reilly. But you would make a record vot(>. and that would take time '(
Mr. Garrett. AVhen a point of no quorum is made, of coui"se, there is no way. and ought not to be any way, of getting around the constitutional provision. You must wait, and ought to wait, until a quorum is found; but I think that one of the rules that should bci adopted in comiection with an electrical voting d(»vice woidd be one to provide that the fii'st vote should be shown and should appear in the Record, showing who was there on that first vote whvu tlie point of no C|Uorum was made.
The Chairman. Showing who was present (
Mr. Garrett. Yes, sir; and who was not present at the tinu>. That is a very rigid proposition, of course, but 1 think it is a ride that should be made.
The Chairm.v.v. Is it not your opinion that one of liie giviatest evils to-day is that we are not a deiilierative body, and thai esJ)(^(•ially when we are in Committee of the Whole we vote as sonu'body elsct votes? We rush in from our olHces, and when I go in on tiu' lloor I look over to see how Mr. Kitchin is going to vote or somebody else i.s going to vote, and Mr. Lenroot will look to ascertain how Mr. Stafford is going to vote, Mr. Mann, or somebody els<'. W<> simply vote in accordanc<i with what seems to be llie party ahgnnuMit. That is a misfortune. Congress ought to be a deiil»erative body and we ought to know why w<' vote on every matter. T1um«^ is this mis- fortun<' at the pres<'nt time, tluil you are not vol ingyour<-oMvielion.s; you are not voting Ix-eause of any kn(»wledge of the matt<'r tliat is before tlie House.
Mr. (iARKETT. That is in a luea^^ure true and, if I may saN it, it is almost unavoi(hd)l(^ under present ])ractices. I do not ><•(• how you can change that unch-r oin- j)resent system.
Mr. LKNitooT. 'I'liat eoiKlition woidd be eluinged to a very hirge e.xtent if the Members were |)re>ent and heard the discussion.
Mr. Gahkett. Precisely, and my contention is that the n(loj)lion of a mechanical voting deviic will cause Members to be present if the rul(>s an> written in the riglil way to work with su<-li device. It was upon that theorv tinit I inl roflii.crj the resohition s.mic xcars ago. I
24 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING.
(lid not follow it up closely. Mr. Wjilsh, of New Jersey, was very niiioh interested in it, and as he had more time to devote to it than I had I turned the matter over to him, so far as the resolution was concerned, but I have never lost interest in it. So far as the con- stitutional question is concerned I do not think there is the slightest trouble about that. I really believe that this committee would render a great public service by the adoption and development of some electrical voting device.
The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Garrett. Mr. Lenroot, we will be very glad to hear from you about this device, as I believe you have given it some consideration.
STATEMENT OF HON. lEVINE L. LENKOOT, A REPRESENTA- TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Mr. Lenroot. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I do not think I have anything to say other than to indorse everything that Mj". Garrett has said. I think from every possible standpoint, assuming that we have a successful device, it ought to be adopted. Emphasizing w^hat Mr. Garrett has said, I believe it will tend to keep Members on the floor, hear the discussions, and vote intelligently. In addition to that it is going to be a great saving in time to Members, assuming that we give them time to get over, when w^e are in the House, from their offices. IS ow, it consumes at least a half hour for a Member to wait for his opportunity to vote, and there is nothing done during those 35 minutes except that particular roll call. It would tend to keep Members on the floor, and if a record vote were provided in Committee of the Whole it would keep Members there, and instead of being the body which w^e are so largely now, as you have said, Mr. Chairman, we w^ould become more of a deliberative body and the Members w ould be on the floor in Committee of the Whole. Instead of flocking in to find out how the leader on their side votes Members would hear the discussions and vote intelligently upon the merits of a measure to a much greater degree than they do to-day.
With reference to this particular device, I never met the gentleman until the other day, when I went into the committee room of the Committee on Ways and Means and saw this machine demonstrated. I w^as perfectly amazed with what is accomplished by the machine. In discussing the matter w'ith him I suggested that the House of Representatives would not, of course, want to buy an experiment, but that they w^ould w^ant a successful device. He stated that if his device were accepted he would be willing to put up any bond that was necessary in order to enable the House to satisfy itself of the absolute success of the machine.
The ChxVirman. The resolution does not commit us to any par- ticular machine.
Mr. Lenroot. No; I understand that, and I am speaking of any machine that may be tried. Of course, we w^ould not want to spend $40,000 or $50,000 on an experiment, and it seems to me we could easily protect ourselves in that way, namely, install the machine and demonstrate its absolute success before the Government spent a single dollar on it. That, I think, should be the course which should be pursued.
ELECTEICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 25
Mr. Koxop. Do you not think it is a fact that if overv Member knew lie was to be recorded on a proposition that it would have a tendency to keep better ordei than we have now, even with a small number present ?
Mr. Lexroot. I certainly do. As to the matter of order, it has been my observation always that there is better order with 200 or 300 Members in the House followin^i; a discussion, because there is to be a vote very shortly on the pro])osition under consideration, than when there are only 50 Mem})ers in the House and no record vote to be made.
I do not think 1 have anythino; further to say, except to most heartily inck)rse everything Mr. (Jarrett has said.
The Chairmax. Mr. Stafford, we will be ghid to liear from you.
STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM H. STAFFORD, A REPRESENT- ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Ml'. Stafford. Mi*. Chairman and gentlemen, when this question was first presented to the Congress a few years ago I refrained from expressing my position in advocacy of it because I realized that there were some practical legislative questions that had to be con- sidered before it could get, as 1 considered, the favorable indorsement of the Members of the House.
With the House Office Building as an institution I think the Mem- bers will always, unless some question of moment is under consid- eration, utilize their offices for their individual work. However, I think that with the inauguration of this system and by a provision in the rules, which is entirely compatible with existing conditions, per- mitting Members 10 minutes to get to the House after the first demand for a roll call has been made, that you will save from 25 minutes to a half hour in the time of the Members and in the time of the House. A few of us remember when the House was only .356, then 391. and now 435, and the present membcrsliij) is likely to grow. Witli the adfhtion of Members more and more time will be consumeil, as Mr. Lenroot has pointed out, in waiting for our names to be called — a
Eure waste of time. If it were known that this, or a similar device, ad been adopted, enabling the Members to have sufficient time to come from their offices, you would save one-half hour of valuable time to every individual Member.
Mr. AiJEHCRo.MHii;. On every roll call ^
Mr. Sta1'I-()|{D. Yes. At the present time 1 do not wish to launch into a (hscussion of the revision df (he rules as far as tiie Commit t(>e of the Whole is coneenicd. Thai is n<il the (|ucsti()n Ix'forc this com- mittee.
The ('maikman. We iiavc nothing to (h) with that.
Mr. Staffokd. I( is not uj) to the Connnittee on Kulcs. It is a question whether or not we can a(h)|)l any (h'vice which will save the time of the 435 Membei-s without infringing upon the privileges and rights of the majority, the minority, or the individual McndxMs. 1 have thought over this a great deal and I sec that a rule could bo adopted allowing 10 minutes a suliicicnt time — for a M(>nil)er to come from his office and rcgi-^tcr his vote hy this or some similar device. I am acfjuainlcd with two or three Mend)ers wlio never eonm to this House, hut wiio -pcnd ;ill of their tinn- at their i-esich'iices.
26 ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OE VOTING.
Whenever a roll call is ordered they take their autos and come right here; they get here in time to answer on the second roll call, but of course we should not consider their convenience, those isolated cases, but we should consider the convenience of the greatest number of Members and the practical condition of affairs, namely, the way the Members do their work to-day in their offices, in connection with their floor duties.
It is to be assumed, Mr. Chau*man, that some practicable device, which will be accurate, can register the will of the Members. I can not see how the adoption of such a device will in any way infringe upon the rights or privileges of the Members. It is accurate; it will be permanent; it will register their votes and in full view of the House. They wiU know exactly how they vote; there can not be any qiiestion about it; there can not be any manipulation whereby it will oe sub- ject to abuse. It will be an accurate register of the vote.
Firrthermore, gentlemen, many times a record vote in the House is refused because of the lateness of the session or because it is getting near the hour of adjournment when our dinners are in jeopardy. If we had this device we would know that we could take a vote in a few minutes and that we coidd register for all time the opinions of the majority and minority. I say to you in all frankness that I do not think that the question of whether it will lead to a record vote in the Committee of the Whole is involved. That is a matter for the Rules Committee. We could have that to-day if we wanted it. That is a matter for subsequent consideration. The only thing we want to consider now is the practical question whether M^e are in favor of saving a half hour of our time whenever there is a roll call and whether we desire to cease wasting valuable time, time which we can utilize to advantage in doing other work.
The Chairman. Is it not true that as a ride the roll must be called twice ?
Mr. Stafford. Yes; the roll is always called twice. The whole tendency of the rules of the House has been to do away with filibuster- ing and dilatory tactics.
The Chairman. The Speaker is here, and I understand he desires to get away.
STATEMENT OF HON. CHAMP CLARK, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Mr. Clark. All I want to say about this device is that if it is practicable I am in favor of it, provided it does not cost too much. Somebody told me that in one of the long sessions we wasted two whole months in calling the roll. I have no doubt in the world that such a device would be a great time saver, but the price ought to be reasonable.
STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM H. STAFFORD— Continued.
Mr. Stafford. 1 was about to say, in closing, that the whole tendency of the rules of the House has been to prevent dilatory and filibustering tactics. I can not see how we can infringe in any wise upon th<' rights of the minority by the adoption of this system. The
ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL SYSTEM OF VOTING. 27
minority should not claim the right of filibusternig by having needless roll calls. By the adoption of this system the registering of the vote, as I see it, will be expedited: there will be more frequent record votes, the time of the Members will be saved and none of their privileges will be invaded.
Mr. Koxop. On the question of filibustering, can vou point to any one instance in the House of Ke}>resentatives where a filibuster defeated a bill ?
Mr. Staffoed. Oh. 3'cs.
Mr. Miller. The shipping bill.
Ml'. Koxop. That was in the Senate.
Mr. Stafford. I remember a filibuster inaugurated by ^'Ii*. Mann in the closhig days of the Sixty-first Congress, when we started in on the war claims proposition; the fili])uster started at 12 o'clock and continued until 10 o'clock Friday: it began the next morning and continued until the next Sunday afternoon, and I might add that I was an humble participant in that great event.
Mr. Koxop. Filibusters may be effective on the 3d of March or along toward the end of a session which must close under the Consti- tution, but I think the instances are very few where a filibuster in the House really accomplishes anything at this time.
Mr. Stafford. I quite agree with you; under the rules of the House a filibuster is impracticable, because the Rules Committee, backed by a majority of the House, can at any time bring in a rule which will make the filibuster ineft'ective. As a matter of fact, we are here for business, and we might as well face this one fact, that with the legislation of Congress becoming greater and greater as the years go on we must find some mcsms whereby we can restrict time- wasting methods and concentrate it on real legislation. As 1 look forAvarci to the legislative history of the House I believe we are goin^ to be in session seven, eight, and nine months each year, and we should try to so conserve the valuable time of the Members in the House as to bring those sessions to as early a close as possible. We have plenty of legislation to consider; the calendar is just filled witli proj)osed legislation, and I hope you gentlemen will favor some device which will certainh" save the time of the Members of the House on each individual roll call at least one-half hour. I will not uiKlertak(> to "^o into the ([uestion of a record vote in the Committee of tli(> "Wiiole. That is another quest ion entirely and one that is nlt(M-ioi' to tlie (pies- tion under consideration.
The Chairman. We arc much obliged to 3'ou, Mr. Stafford.
STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL K. REILLY, A REPRESENTA- TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.
Mr. Kkii.lv. 1 just want to say that I am lieailily in favor of the adoption of sonl(^ mechanical device that will enable the House to spend more time in legislating and less tini<' in calling the roll. I agree with Mr. Stafford that as to what effect the adoption of such device will have; in ('onnnittce of th(^ Whole is aside from this (pjes- tion and has nothing to do with this j)ro|)osition at all.
The Chairman. "Vou nvo exactly right ahout that, and I am gl;id you have made that point.
4.51(J5S
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES
THE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY
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