University of California • Berkeley

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Regional Oral History Office
The Bancroft Library

University of California
Berkeley, California

Lurline Matson Roth

MATSON AND ROTH FAMILY HISTORY:
A LOVE OF SHIPS, HORSES, AND GARDENS

An Interview Conducted by

Suzanne B. Riess

in 1980, 1981

Copyright (c\ 1982 by the Regents of the University of California

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal
agreement between the Regents of the University of
California and Lurline Matson Roth dated October 28, 1981.
The manuscript is thereby made available for research
purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including
the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library
of the University of California Berkeley. No partof the
manuscript may be quoted for publication without the
written permission of the Director of The Bancroft Library
of the University of California at Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office,
486 Library, and should include identification of the
specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the
agreement with Lurline Matson Roth requires that she be
notified of the request and allowed thirty days in which
to respond.

It is recommended that this oral history be cited
as follows :

Lurline Matson Roth, "Matson and Roth Family
History: A Love of Ships, Horses, and Gardens,"
an oral history conducted 1980, 1981 by Suzanne
B. Riess, Regional Oral History Office, The
Bancroft Library, University of California,
Berkeley, 1982.

Mrs. William P. Roth

TABLE OF CONTENTS — Lurline Matson Roth

INTERVIEW HISTORY

I FAMILY 1

Father, William Matson 1

Mother, Lillie Low 8

The Trips Down to the Islands 11

Lurline and Her Parents 14

Mother: Leeside, Lessons 14

Father: The Business 17

The Character of Captain Matson 19

Growing Up 23

Country, Vacations, Houses 23

Horses 26

Consular Responsibilities 27

Education, Study in Paris 27

II MARRIAGE 30

William P. Roth 30

Courtship and Job 30

The Roth Family 32

The Fair, The Honeymoon 33

The Airplane Business: Amelia Earhart 34

The Twins 36

Woodside 37

"Why Worry" 37

Buying Flloli 38

III HORSES 42

IV AN INTERVIEW ON MATSON HISTORY, WITH KARL KORTUM PRESENT 61

V RED CROSS WORK, AND OTHER INTERESTS 91

Red Cross Volunteer Chairman 91

War and Postwar: Stables, Servants 99

Other Shipping Families 102

Other Volunteer Activities 103

William Matson Roth 107

VI FILOLI'S GARDENS 112

The Gardeners 112

Miss Isabella Worn 114

Toichi Domoto 119

Leslie Thiringer 121

Fruit, Flowers, Vegetables, Picnics 122

Other Gardens 124

; . -:• v £•!.; • . ;'

VII A TRIP TO FILOLI 126

The Garden Design 128

In the Gardens 132

In the House 138

The Parties: Tony Duquette 140

United Nations Site Consideration 142

Concluding Remarks 144

•> .
•£i

TAPE GUIDE 146

A TALK TO THE DOCENTS by Lurline Roth Coonan 147

APPENDICES 162

AN INTERVIEW WITH TOICHI DOMOTO 223

INDEX 267

i

INTERVIEW HISTORY

This oral history with Mrs. William P. Roth was conceived as a series
of interviews on the history of Filoli, the Roths' home in Woodside,
California; on shipping, from the Matson Navigation Company point of view;
and on horse shows. One or all of these aspects of Mrs. Roth's life —
the house and garden, now in the National Trust for Historic Preservation,
the heritage of shipping, through her father, William Matson, and her husband,
William Roth, and the activities on the horse show/horse breeding circuits —
are what the name Lurline Matson Roth means to many.

Beyond these major subjects, the interviews are about a girl growing up
on both sides of the San Francisco Bay, and in Hilo, and on shipboard,
about her education' and career interests, about being wife and mother and
volunteer, and about taking further community leadership roles, especially
with the Red Cross in wartime.

- -

Mrs. Roth was extremely modest in the face of the ego-stretching possi
bilities of being an oral-history interviewee. She did not easily say
"I did..." this or that. For a wider view of her life at Filoli the reader
will want especially to read her daughter Lurline Roth Coonan's talk to the
docents appended, and the interview with horticulturist Toichi Domoto, and
the notes sent by designer Tony Duquette. The shipping interview with Mrs.
Roth and maritime historian Karl Kortum is supplemented by appended reprints
on shipping history, and biographical material on Captain Matson.

The interviews took place September 22, 30, and October 6, 20, 1980,
on November 13, with Mr. Kortum, and on December 17, and then after time out
for the holidays, a cruise and a trip to her home in Hilo, the interviewing
resumed with two meetings, May 4 and 11, 1981. The attached interview with
Mr. Domoto was done on May 26, 1981.

The setting for the interviews was Mrs. Roth's study, a bright, pretty
room with beautiful, fragrant bowls of flowers, a fireplace, books, horse
portraits, and two walls of windows with views of the Thomas Church-designed
garden that came with the Hillsborough house that Mrs. Roth moved to when
she left Woodside in 1975. In October, when I arrived, Mrs. Roth was making
her social plans for the horse show, in December she was writing her Christmas
cards, in May putting together the Red Cross's part in the benefit opening
of Maxwell's Plum in Ghirardelli Square — an historically and architecturally
significant and beautiful property saved and developed by the Roths. The
November meeting where we talked Ilatson history with Karl Kortum in the Roth
offices in Ghirardelli Square was followed by an excellent Chinese lunch at
Kan's. Mrs. Roth knows good food — my arrival sometimes interrupted menu-
planning, and the opened cookbooks were inspiring. Once, as the result of
a misunderstanding at the fish market, Mrs. Roth was having to face a lot of
caviar for lunch, and leftovers for dinner.

ii

Successors to the birds that Lurline Coonan mentions in her story of
growing up at Filoli were singing through the interviews in Hillsborough,
a hallway away, but in good voice. The poodles were right there, small anc
fiercely fond of their owner, and a lot less so of the interviewer.

For the final interview, Mrs . Roth and I took a day to go down to
Filoli. We drove on familiar roads, home to a beloved place. We walked Ir
the gardens, saw and met docents and volunteers preparing for the spring
visits, and talked with Hadley Osborn, the executive director. Somehow we
managed to get locked in (we thought) the library at Filoli where we were
interviewing, and after a lot of banging and bemusement, our hard push
opened the heavy doors. It was the only time that Filoli seemed perhaps
too large. Otherwise, it is very personal and accessible for all its
and glorious scale.

The interviews, after being transcribed, were edited in the Regional
Oral History Office, and checked by Mrs. Roth in. the fall of 1981. Attenti
was given to finding good illustrations, pictures and appendices, and the
family scrapbook, from which most of the pictures were reproduced, yielded
a great number of negatives valued by The Bancroft Library for their artis
merit — Arnold Genthe studio portraits — and their historic merit — interiors
clothing, people.

But the picture and the sound I most wish to have reproduced for pos-;
terity was the night of October 29, 1980, at the Grand National Horse Sho^
when Mrs. Roth's four-year-old, Mountain Storm, showed splendidly, and he'
owner stepped out in the light of that vast and exciting place to present
a cup, and was introduced, to standing ovation, as the champion horsewom
and person she is .

In preparing for these interviews I have had the help of Karl Kortum
Chief Curator, Maritime Museum, San Francisco; Mai Arbegast, landscape
architect and horticultural consultant, on the Filoli Board of Trustees;
Suzanne Caster, San Francisco Examiner and Chronicle Librarian; Mr. Charl
Regal; Mr. Robert Richardson; Mrs. Ted Robbins; and the Filoli Center staf
and the librarians of the Strybing Arboretum. I am grateful to all of th

The Regional Oral History Office, established to tape record autobic
graphical interviews with persons prominent in recent California history,
is under the administrative supervision of the director of The Bancroft
Library, James D. Hart. Willa K. Baum is the department head.

Suzanne B. Riess
Senior Editor

February 1982

Regional Oral History Office

486 The Bancroft Library

University of California at Berkeley

MRS. WILLIAM P. ROTH

I FAMILY

[Interview 1: September 22, 1980] ##

Father, William Matson

Riess: When were you born, 1890 or 1891?

Roth: Eighteen-ninety is on my passport, so that is when I was born —
September 3rd.

Riess: It appears as 1891 occasionally.

Roth: Yes, it does and the reason is because during the fire we all lost our
papers. I always thought that Mother made a mistake. But in any
case, I'm 90 and that makes it 1890.

Riess : Where were you born?

Roth: In San Francisco on Broadway Street.

Riess: At home?

Roth: At home; no doubt at home in those days.

Riess: Was life comfortable for your family at that point?

Roth: Life was always comfortable for my father. He made life comfortable.

If he was short of money, he found it somehow. He was always comfortable.
It was really something in his character. He would go into the office,
when the office first started, and say, "I want $200 for the week-end."

##This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has begun
or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 146.

Roth: The treasurer, Mr. McCarty would say, "But Captain Matson, you haven't
got $200." He'd say, "Just give me $200." And he'd get it. [laughs]
He didn't steal it. He'd get it; it was there.

Riess: Do you think this is typical?

Roth: Very typical of him. Mother had to make up — it was hard for her because
sometimes she was [left] a little short.

Riess: What do you know about your father's parents?

Roth: Nothing, nothing. We know absolutely nothing excepting they were
killed, both together, in a factory fire, I think, or an accident.
They were both killed on the same day.

Riess: They worked in that factory?

Roth: They must have. He was born in Lysekil, which is not far from Goteburg.
It's where the king used to go on his summer vacation.

Riess: Was it on the coast or inland?

Roth: A little inland.

Ries: A hunting preserve?

Roth: Agriculture.

Riess: I wonder what the factory would have been then.

Roth: Matches, I think.

Riess: A dangerous environment, I guess.

Roth: A very close friend of mine who is related to the king went there and
tried to find my father's grave — his family's grave — but they couldn't
because in those days he could have been the "son of Mat." Matson was
a name they just gave him, you see. In those days, you were the "son
of Mat" or you were the "son of Peter."

Riess: So it wouldn't be traceable.

Roth: It was not traceable. It was just the year before it was traceable.
The next year it was traceable.

Riess: No church records?

Roth: No church records, although they knew of the accident.

Roth: My father never went back to Sweden. In the beginning, he didn't have
the money to go. Later on, he got too busy and never went. But he
always wanted to go back.

Riess: I wondered, because he got back to Europe to buy boats. He bought boats
in London.

Roth: Yes, he got back to London but never went to Sweden.
Riess: He must have recalled aunts and uncles.

Roth: No, he didn't remember anyone. He was only ten when he had left and
he remembered he wasn't very fond of his aunt. [chuckles]

Riess: Were there brothers and sisters?

Roth: He may have had brothers and sisters, but I doubt it. I don't think
he had. He never talked of any brothers and sisters. Then later on
when he was successful, I don't think he was so anxious to look them
up. [laughs] He might have found quite a few if he went back. I
did go back and I went to see where he was born which is a lovely part
of the country, very lovely.

Riess: Had he become a legend over there?

Roth: I don't think so, I don't think so. He was made, you know, the

Swedish consul general, so Sweden really recognized him. He has a
decoration too. I have it still.

Riess: Did he become an American citizen?

Roth: Yes, right away. As soon as he could learn enough English, he became
an American citizen.

Riess: Was that necessary for what he was doing?
Roth: Yes, to get his captain's license.

He loved this country because he felt this country had done a lot
for him, from a poor little boy to success.

Riess: Could he have had this kind of success in Sweden?

Roth: Oh, he could have. I suppose he could have. I think he was a worker
and a thinker. He was always ahead of himself, going from one thing
to the next thing that was just a little bit more advanced.

Riess: Therein lies a risk.
Roth: He always took risks.

4

Riess: You said that he was orphaned at ten, but he came to this country at
fourteen. There were four years in there.

Roth: I think he came to the west coast when he was fourteen. He started
in sailing from Sweden to New York on a ship called the Aurora.
Then, about four years later, he took something around the Horn.

Riess : What kind of work was he doing in New York?

Roth: Oh, he was on the ship. He went back and forth from Sweden to New
York. His work as a little boy would be just running errands I
imagine.

Riess: Would they have had more than one such little boy on board ship?

Roth: Oh, I think probably a couple of little boys and that's when he spoke
of the cat-o-nine tails, which I couldn't find in the dictionary.

Riess: It was like being a slave then.

Roth: Well, they were in those days. They really were.

Riess: Would there be some person on the ship who would be assigned to look
out for his welfare?

Roth: The first mate probably.

Riess: To see that he didn't come to harm?

Roth: I don't think they cared so much in those days if they came to
harm. It was tough.

Riess: So a little boy would be sent up the rigging to do things?

Roth: Yes, to do errands; run down and get something for the captain, I

suppose. He always said he ran as fast as he could and he found out
that if he ran fast, they always thought he knew what he was doing,
[chuckles]

Riess: Do you think that the rigours of that experience made him feel that

he would never treat anyone like that on his ships, or did he come out
of that feeling that that was a good education?

Roth: It's a thought, because maybe all of those hardships gave him that
sweet nature that he had when he was able to take care of himself.

Riess: I hear that he was a good captain and kind.

Roth: Oh, yes, he was. He was good to everybody. He'd give his shirt to
anybody. He was always giving everything away. It was just natural.
It was part of him. I came across an article the other day about a

Roth: Hawaiian that he had helped. It was in the Honolulu paper. (I gave

it to my daughter.) He had arthritis and he [Matson] gave him clothes
all his life. He was always giving clothes to everybody — everybody
in Hilo — all these old Hawaiians that would help him. He [Matson]
couldn't swim. Imagine a sailor that couldn't swim! Somebody was
always saving him! [laughs] He never could swim. They were the ones
that were always getting all the suits because they saved him someplace!

Riess: How come he had to be saved? Was he washed overboard?

Roth: Oh, no, you know there is always an undertow swimming. So he got into
a lot of trouble!

Riess: I want to talk about Hawaii and the Hawaiians but I don't want to get
quite that far ahead. Was your father a religious man?

Roth: Yes, I have his Bible. He came with his Bible and at ten years old
to leave with your Bible (it was his own Bible that he had) showed
that he had had a religious bringing-up. He always went to church.

Riess: What church did he go to when he was here?

Roth: Lutheran. Then Mother was Presbyterian, so he later went to the
Presbyterian church.

Riess: Would he have church services on his ships too?

Roth: Well, when ships got farther along. In the beginning they didn't have

anybody to give church services. I guess maybe the captain had something.

Riess: When you are out at sea the elements are so terrific that maybe you are
inclined to put yourself in the hands of God.

Roth: I think that easily could be because when you think of the big ships
we go down in now, and think of those little things that we used to
sail in —

Riess: Did he have any fear when he set sail?

Roth: No, no, he had no fear at all. No fear. That's one thing, he never
had any fear.

Riess: Do you recall your father talking about his New York days?

Roth: No, I don't think so. He, of course, got really started in the business
through his friendship with the Spreckelses.

Riess: Why did he decide to pick up and head west?

Roth: Oh, the idea of adventure. Everybody was thinking of the gold rush in
those days. Of course, he went right into shipping.

Riess: Was the gold rush in his thinking originally when he headed out here
do you think?

Roth: No, I don't think so. But I think everybody was heading here. He
was always back in Sweden, one trip, and then back to New York. So
I think the idea was to get away and make his own life — which is
logical.

Riess: I guess he probably had to go around the Horn several more times
before the canal was built.

Roth: Oh, he only went once around the Horn.

Riess: From then on he would travel back and forth by train across the
country?

•

Roth: Oh, yes, by then. But that is many years later.

Riess: When he got around here he didn't go to the gold fields. Was he the

kind of person that could not live out of sight of the sea, et cetera?

Roth: I think he loved the sea, because it was the time when he could have
gotten into the gold fields and maybe he would have been more
successful.

Riess: [laughs] More successful, Mrs. Roth?

Roth: Well, you always can be more successful. I think he just loved the
sea too much.

Riess: There were Captains Johnson and This and That, but Captain Matson was
the one who was very successful.

Roth: They were all Swedish or Norwegian. I believe the other Captain Matson
was Norwegian.

Riess: A lot of the water front was Swedish.

Roth: I think they were all Swedish and Norwegian. If you look at the list
of the captains of the ships, they were all Johnsons, Petersons — they
all had "son" at the end.

Riess: Did they speak Swedish among themselves?

Roth: Yes. My father didn't speak Swedish. He forgot his Swedish.

Riess: Were they of the same generation that he was?

Roth: I think he was younger. I think they were older really. I'm sure they
were.

Riess: The first really important contact for him on the water front was Mr.
Spreckels? He was German, wasn't he?

Roth: Yes, he had his lovely yacht which was called the Lurline and he was
asked to sail this yacht on week-ends when the Spreckels would have
guests. That's how he made the acquaintance of people who had money
that could help him — and they all helped him. Nobody lost any money
from my father. He made money for everybody.

Riess: Was this Glaus Spreckels?

Roth: It was Glaus Spreckels 's son. The original Glaus Spreckels had John
D. , Adolph, Rudolph, and A.B., all sons. But Rudolph had nothing to
do with the yacht.

Riess: Had they already made a fortune in sugar?

Roth: You're ahead of yourself. Sugar only just started then.
» t

Riess: How had they made money?

Roth: They inherited it from Glaus.*

I know that they loaned my father the money for his first ship as
he had little of his own. By then he had saved money and with the
money that he had borrowed from the Spreckelses he was able to build the
Lurline. [a brigantine, first voyage, 1887]

Riess: There are a couple of stories of what Lurline means. What is your
unders tanding?

Roth: There is only one meaning. It's Lorelei. It has to come from that.

If you read about the opera, it tells how it is the Lurline on the Rhine
who lures the sailors to the shore. It is spelled L-o-r-l-e-i sometimes;
Lorlei.

*Claus Spreckels (1828-1908) "...came from Hanover, Germany, to the U.S.
as a penniless Immigrant to work as a grocery boy... became interested in
sugar refining. . .by shrewd business methods came to control all of San
Francisco's refineries and established the state's sugar-beet industry."
(James D. Hart, A Companion to California, Oxford University Press, 1978)

Mother, Llllie Low

Roth: After he married, my father never went to sea as a captain.
Riess: Was that your mother's wish?

Roth: No, I was born then and I guess he just went into bigger things, more
ships. The Enterprise was his first steamer. I know that I have been
on every single ship on the list [laughter] because Mother and I always
had to make two trips anyway to the Islands every year, from the time
I was born. So that's quite a few.

Riess : Why did you have to?
Roth: My father wished it.
Riess: So that he would have you with him as much as possible?

Roth: Yes, that's it. He had to go on business so often himself. It isn't
like the old days . Now we are there in a few hours and then it took
twelve days to get there.

Riess: In some of the reports I've read he would demand that the boat get in
within ten days.

Roth: Yes, they would once in awhile.

My mother made the first flag for the ship, the first time they had
the ship's flag. I remember Mother making it on board, getting a lot of
flags and cutting them up and making the same flag they have now, the
hem and the center [contrasting] and the stars around, each star for
one ship. Of course, in the beginning there weren't many ships!

Riess: I'd like to hear about her. He met her in the Islands?

Roth: He met her on board ship. She was on the Lurline going down to teach
school at Hakalau Plantation.* She had been teaching up here. I think
she was just seventeen.

Riess: She was teaching in San Francisco?

Roth: No, across the bay in Alameda County. As a matter of fact, it was at
Sunol. The children were mostly older than she was. It was a country
school.

In those days in Hawaii on the plantation, most every plantation
had a very good tutor for their children and the children of their
office employees. So it was like a little private school.

*See "Captain Matson and the Matsonia" by Erna Fergusson, appended.

Riess: The plantation owners would be Caucasian?

Roth: Oh, yes, all Scottish.

Riess: But then the children of the workers would be —

Roth: Not of the workers, of the office employees, and they would have a very
good teacher for their children because there weren't that many schools.
Of course, the children were out there on the plantation which was out
of the city of Hilo. So Mother went down to teach at Hakalau.

At the Volcano House I was so excited the other day. There was
[in] a glass case the list of the guests way back and here was my
mother's name — Lillie B. Low. I screamed at the top of my voice when
I saw that! I was so excited. I think that one of the reasons that
it is exhibited is that it was on the same page as Mark Twain, [laughs]
She doesn't get all of the credit!

Riess: Where had she gotten her education?

Roth: That I have no idea. I have no idea. My mother was born in Brooklyn
and apparently her mother and father were divorced when she was very
young because she came west with her father and lived with him.

Riess: That is unusual.

Roth: It is. It is very unusual. I never heard of her mother, never saw
her.

Riess: So your mother came around the Horn too then.

Roth: No, no, she came by train. Her father's name was James Reed Low.

He spelled his name L-o-w, and all of his family spelt the name L-o-w-e
because they were very Scottish and they just couldn't stand not to have
an "e."

Riess: Well, Lillie Low could be a Chinese name.

Roth: It could be. Her name was L-i-1-l-i-e. But where she had her

education — as a matter of fact, I don't even know where she and her
father lived.

Riess: Sunol was very much the country.

Roth: I remember when the little schoolhouse was there years ago. When I
used to drive up to Stockton, I would pass that school house.

Riess: Do you think she lived with families out there?

10

Roth: She must have, yes. She must have. I don't think you lived by
yourself in those days.

[On this first trip to Hawaii, to go to Hakalau Plantation, the
ship was the Lurline and] my father put the ship on the rocks. She
had to go to shore with a rope tied around her waist and naturally
she was the first one off. He got her off first.

Riess: Had he already spotted her?

Roth: He had spotted her and I think everything was pretty well set then.

Riess: Do you mean on that twelve-day voyage?

Roth: [laughs] I think so, I think so. I think she only taught for a year
there and came back and got married.

Riess: What did she look like?

Roth: She was very pretty because her father was a very handsome man. He
had golden hair. My mother had golden hair too, but her father had
hair that was golden when he was seventy years old. It was amazing.

Riess: This was a romantic voyage.

Roth: Oh, it was.

Riess: Your father was a good deal older.

Roth: He was sixteen or eighteen years older.

Her father was an engineer on the Morning Star, which I believe
is the first ship that went to the South Seas. He was the engineer on
that trip. He had written the most wonderful log and it's lost. It
was stolen somehow. I cannot find it. Historically it would be quite
valuable because I believe the Morning Star was the first American
ship that went to the South Seas .

Riess : By the South Seas do you mean Tahiti?

Roth: I mean further than Tahiti — Fiji.

Riess: Had he been a ship's engineer in the east?

Roth: That I don't know. I know very little about the family. Mother never
saw her family because her father just felt that he was different
from the family and he just didn't seem to get along.

Riess: You don't know whether she had sisters or brothers back east?

Roth: She had no sisters. She had a brother, James Reed Low.
Riess : Did James come out with your mother and your grandfather?

Roth: Yes, and he went to school here and then went to the Islands and

died in Vladivostok, Russia. He was working for Matson over there.
They sent him on a project and he died there quite young of
pneumonia .

Riess: What was Matson doing in Vladivostok?

Roth: I think they were looking into — I really don't know.

Riess: When did it happen?

Roth: In the twenties. He married there. He married this Scottish girl there,
Barbara. She had come to Vladivostok from England to tutor for a
Russian family.

Riess: A far-flung family!

Roth: I know one of the cousins was scalped by the Apaches on the way home
after he had bought my mother a doll for Christmas. Imagine! That
was in New Mexico and she and her father were staying there on their
way west. The uncle went to town to buy her a doll and was scalped
by the Indians — the Apaches — on his way home and the doll never
arrived. They found him and the doll. So he must have been a good
man.

The Trips Down to the Islands

Riess: What were your father's feelings about the Islands and the islanders?

Roth: He loved the Islands and he loved the people there. In those days,
the plantation people were mostly all Scots.

Riess: You wouldn't have had much contact with the Asians and the Hawaiians?

Roth: No, he had contact with the Hawaiians too, because in those days it
was before they really imported so much outside labor and they were
all Hawaiians doing the work, all of the pure Hawaiians. After that,
they imported Portuguese and [those] from different places.

Riess: Did he learn to speak the Hawaiian language?
Roth: No, he didn't.

12

Riess: He didn't need to deal with them directly anyway?

Roth: Oh, no, you didn't. They weren't the heads of businesses.

Riess: I probably should re-read my Michener's Hawaii, but I wondered —

Roth: That won't give you the true history.

Riess: When did they become real factors in business dealings in Hawaii?

Roth: I don't think they ever did. I don't think they ever did.

Riess: Not even through intermarriage?

Roth: Oh, through intermarriage, yes. But the kings and the queens really
didn't have too much to do with the business of the country. Sugar
is the big business. The missionaries came in and took that over.
So you're dealing with the missionaries.

Riess: In Hilo he was dealing with the Scots who were raising sugar, and was
there also coffee in Hilo?

Roth: In the very beginning, he was doing everything because he was one of

the first ships to go down there. So he did everything — needles, pins.

Riess: These were the things he was bringing to them?
Ro th : Yes .

Riess: I have read he was, in fact, his own contractor. He picked up things
at this end —

Roth: Yes, he did it all himself when he came back, and went back with all

these orders. Then later, naturally they had stores and they did their
own buying and you went just for sugar. But in the beginning it was
everything.

Riess: He and your mother were married in 1889. That was the end of her

teaching career, and you were born the next year. Why were there no
more children?

Roth: That I don't know.
Riess: Was she a good sailor?

Roth: Terrible. She was the worst sailor in the world. Once we went out
and they had to put the ship back and take her off, she was so sick,
just getting out by the Farallones.

13

Riess: Is that always the worst part of it?

Roth: It's always choppy there. She was a terrible sailor.

In the old days, they used to put the mules on the decks in stalls
and we always had a front room on the ship. I don't know whether it
was supposed to be the best or the worst, but anyway, those mules would
get their heads in the window and they were always so seasick!
[laughter] It used to really upset my mother to look and see a mule's
head in the window, he was so sick. Of course, they are not actively
sick, but they drooled, and it was awful.

Riess: Didn't you tell me when we met earlier that occasionally you would be
tied up, on board ship?

Roth: Yes, when my mother was seasick and in a deck chair. I had a long

rope so I could run about the deck and play and if I should fall over,
they could haul me in.

Riess: Were there steamships by 1890?

Roth: No, no, not that early. There were steamships to Honolulu, but not to
Hilo. Hilo still had the sailing ships, and you just floated along,
rocking from side to side.

Riess: The trip down. Is "down" the vernacular?
Roth: Down and up.

Riess: The trip down I understand you just sort of run before the wind, don't
you?

Roth: It's easier than coming up.

My father used to take me out on the spar, sliding out, when I
was maybe six. I'd slide right out to the edge.

Riess: What was holding you?

Roth: Nothing; just on the mast. My father's hand only, he'd be beside me.

Riess: Were you scared?

Roth: No, that was a treat! I thought that was the best thing in the world.
It was my big treat.

Riess: When you were lose, you had the run of the ship?

Roth: Oh, yes, and there were always a few passengers. They had seven or
eight.

14

Riess: You all had this forward cabin that was theoretically best.
Roth: With the mules heads in the windows.
Riess: Were there other women on board the ship?

Roth: A couple of couples because those early ships only had a couple of
rooms, maybe six. It might be a group of twelve in those days and
everybody was seasick then because nobody had those good pills.

Riess: Were those people going out to the Islands as tourists or was that
business traffic?

Roth: Mostly business because I wouldn't think that the trip was a pleasure
trip in those days.

Riess: It wasn't until the boats were faster and more stable that pleasure —

Roth: That it became a pleasure. In the first place, in those early days
your cooks weren't French chefs.

Riess: What do you remember of the food on the ships going down?

Roth: Oh, I don't remember it actually, but it was adequate I'm sure. But
not special.

Often when we went over I'd go to school over there (one of these
plantation schools) and we'd stay maybe a month or two.

Lurline and Her Parents/^/

Mother: Leeside, Lessons

Roth: I went to Sunday school in the morning, stayed for church, then in the
evening we sang hymns after dinner. That's not what happened at every
one of the plantations, I'm sure, but where I stayed, that's what we
had to do and it was a long day.

Riess: Was your mother tutoring you in between?

Roth: That she did when we went to Leeside. I told you we had a place near
Mills College. My father had bronchitis.

Riess: I think I would just like to step back. Where on Broadway was the
house where you were born?

EARLY YEARS
Cloekuise :
Lurline at Leeside
Captain & Mrs. Matson with Lurline
Mrs. Matson, Red Cross Head
Family home, 1918 Jackson Street
Captain Matson

15

Riess ;
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:
Riess :
Roth:

Roth: Right next to Dr. [Herbert C.] Moffitt between Octavia and Gough.
We lived in rented houses in San Francisco.

Riess: Why was that?

Roth: I guess we didn't have any money to buy a house. We had a rented
house always and we moved around quite a bit. Then when he got
bronchitis, and the doctor said he should get away over the weekends,
he bought the place near Mills College, Leeside, and it was I'd say
three miles from Mills College. We came back and forth. We would
rent in the winter and then go back and spend the summer.

How old were you when you went to Leeside?

Oh, I was little; six probably. We had that until he died. He loved
it there.

*

Better than being in urban San Francisco?
Yes, he loved Leeside.

Was your mother at home in the country too?
Yes, she loved it.

I remember having tea with Mrs. Mills. I was so excited, so
afraid I'd spill my tea! [laughter] Oh, it was exciting.

Riess: What would you imagine your mother's life was like for those first

seven years of bringing you up in San Francisco? Could she put down
roots and develop close friendships, or was she sort of transient?

Roth: I would say transient because my father in the meantime is moving on
and meeting different people and Mother had to follow naturally and
make these new friends. It was always new friends because the
business grew and as the business grew, you made new friends. It
wasn't easy for her, but she did it. She was wonderful about that.
But I know it wasn't easy. She was so much younger than my father that
it was hard.

Riess: How were you brought up?

Roth: [with emphasis] Strict, strict.

Riess: You say that with passion!

Roth: Oh, really strict, really strict. If a boy came to call on me and it
started to be half past eleven, my father would drop a shoe up above.
I would hear it.

16

Riess: Half past eleven is pretty late.

Roth: In those days it was very late. I was supposed to get rid of him then.
Oh, he was strict.

Riess: You talked about having tea with Susan Mills. Susan and Cyrus Mills
had an Hawaiian connection.

Roth: Oh, really?

Riess: Yes, Cyrus Mills was president of Punahou. Mrs. Mills was reportedly
a dashing horsewoman.

Roth: Oh, yes, that I knew. But I was maybe five or six; I was pretty small
then at the time. She must have died when I must have been twelve.

Riess: You were visiting her because you were neighbors, rather than old
acquaintances?

Roth: Yes, we were neighbors, my mother. I was just a little girl brought
along, but I remember her.

Riess: Do you remember her collection of teapots?

Roth: Yes, yes, that I remember. She was such a dear person, she really was.

Riess: She had a kind of soiree?

Roth: Yes, used to, I think, every once a week.

Riess: Did you learn the ladylike arts — to sew, etc.?

Roth: Yes, sewing, piano. My mother wanted me to play the violin. That I

didn't start. The piano I did. Singing I loved. I continued in that.
I went to Paris and studied a little bit there. I always loved singing
and I had a somewhat nice voice. Then art.

Riess: Who did you take art lessons from?

Roth: I went to the Art Institute two years I think. That I enjoyed very
much because I didn't go to college.

Riess: In San Francisco did you go to private schools?

Roth: In the beginning I was at Leeside, so when I started school I should
have started in the first grade. But it was crowded and I had to
start in the second, which was very difficult for a country girl. But
I made it. Then I went to Miss Hamlin's later, in Pacific Heights.

17

Riess: You were commuting across the Bay to go to school?

Roth: No, no. When I was at Leeside, Mother taught me. In other words, I
didn't have kindergarten. Most children start now about three years
old. I was eight years before I went to a city school.

Father: The Business

Riess: What sort of dances and social life did you have?

Roth: Naturally, you acquired many friends and you went to dances and

parties. But my father was very demanding of me. He really liked me
home most every night if possible.

Riess: He wanted your company?

Roth: He did. As a matter of fact, he was absolutely devoted to me. It
was really amazing; he wasn't like most fathers; he thought that
anything he did, I could do. If he went to the opera, no reason why
I shouldn't go to the opera. Mother would say, "Tickets are so
expensive and she's so young." I should go if he wanted to go; I
should go with him. He was that way. I was at the opera the night of
the earthquake to hear Caruso. I went with my father — everything he
did.

And he discussed his business with me. Every night when he came
home, he discussed business. He didn't discuss it as much with my
mother. It always hurt her feelings a bit.

Riess: Would he actually change the subject if your mother came around?

Roth: No, not necessarily, but it was always me that he wanted to discuss
things with. They'd ring up from the office and say, "What is your
father going to do on such and such a thing? Is it going to be yes or
no?" Because the office knew he always talked it over with me.

Riess: Were you supposed to keep it confidential?
Roth: I could use my own judgment.

Riess: When you say "discuss," discuss is supposed to be two-way. Did you
have some comments on things ?

Roth: I was very smart. I didn't make too many comments and I think

probably that is why he enjoyed it. Mother would have made a comment.
She would naturally have said, "I might do it this way," but of course

18

Roth: I didn't and I think it was his way of releasing troubles that he had
and thoughts and then having nobody say anything against them. He
got it out of his system.

Riess: I hope it didn't worry you.

Roth: No, no, it didn't worry me at all. Not at all. As a matter of fact,
it was a period when we were always — as I say, we always had enough,
there was always money, but [chuckles] it was a little bit short, you
see. There was one period that my mother really got tired of my
father saying the bills were expensive every month. Mother would say,
"But you want to entertain all the time. You can't entertain all the
time and not have expensive bills."

So she said, "I'm going to turn the household over to Lurline to
run," and she did. She turned it over to me and I was about sixteen
I guess at the time. I was terrified. I ran the house then and I
sure worked, because when the bills came in and my father said,
"Lurline, they're a little high," I'd say, "That's what you spent."

It really kind of taught him a lesson, I think, because then when
I turned it back to Mother I think he was better about things.

Riess: Did you have help at that time?

Roth: Oh, yes. We always had a cook and a maid. I think we always had a
maid, but we always had a cook. Most people did in those days.

Riess: Chinese?

Roth: We had Chinese, Swedish.

Riess: How did your mother occupy herself during the day?

Roth: Mother liked to paint. She always took painting lessons. She did quite
a lot of charity work.

Riess: Who was your father entertaining?

Roth: Just friends, just friends.

Riess: Who were his particularly good friends that you can recall?

Roth: I can't remember.

Riess: The horsy ones or the sea captains?

Roth: No, not the horsy ones; mostly business friends of his.

Riess: Do you remember eating particularly lavishly and well?

19

Roth: Oh, yes, but everybody did. We weren't different from anyone else.

There were big luncheons. You had so much more than you have nowadays.

Riess: Was it common to entertain at home rather than at a hotel?

Roth: Oh, yes. In those days almost everyone who came from the Islands who
were friends of ours, stayed with us. Nobody went to a hotel. All
the children of all my father's business acquaintances in the Islands,
they always stayed with us on their way to Harvard or Yale. They never
thought of going to hotels.

Riess: On their way to Harvard or Yale rather than Stanford?

Roth: Oh, yes, all those boys from the Islands went to Harvard or Yale, or
Cornell was quite a favorite college.

Riess : Is that because that was where their fathers had been educated?
Roth: They were mostly all eastern people from Boston,
Riess: By then you were firmly fixed in one house?

Roth: Not until my father finally bought a house — and never took Mother to
see it! He just came home and said, "I bought you a house." She
didn't have anything to say, he had the house. He bought a great big
house. It is now the Swedish consulate. It's on Jackson, 1918 Jackson.
My father died there. Then the house was rebuilt.

Riess: He sounds not very thoughtful of his wife.

Roth: Yes, he was. He adored her. He couldn't have been kinder, but strict
I'd say. I always felt that Mother could have had more fun. Oh, she
liked to dance and if they went to a party he wouldn't stay that late
to dance, and Mother liked fun. I don't think she had too much fun.
She worked hard.

The Character of Captain Matson

Riess: I have read about his trips to southern California and the development
of the oil fields. How much was he around home?

Roth: Oh, he was there, he was there. He'd go down to the oil fields and
be there only two days maybe, just a weekend.

Riess: Did he ever go out drinking with the boys?

20

Roth: No, he didn't drink.
Riess: He didn't drink at all?

Roth: Oh, yes, he had one drink every night, but that was it, and wine. He
never took more than one drink.

Riess: Drinking was often a problem with seagoing men, wasn't it?

Roth: Oh, I think so. It probably was the reason that he didn't drink.

Riess: Do you think he tried to keep his ships more sober than other ships?

Roth: He wouldn't allow his captains to drink while they were at sea. I
remember the Matson captains wouldn't drink while they were at sea.
A very good idea because sometimes some captains have gotten in trouble.

Riess: Why did your father become the giant of the business and others didn't?

Roth: Because he worked hard and he went forward and he had vision. You have
to have vision.

Riess: It's almost as if you get on a treadmill though.

Roth: One thing leads to another. The oil came and it was part of the ships
and the ships used the oil. Of course, [oil] is where he made the
money; not the ships. The oil, he had vision with that. We always
laughed at him because he used to drive home at Leeside and when we put
some oil on the road he would drive home and then say "what a good
country smell!" Well, it wasn't a country smell at all. [laughs]
It was that good oil smell that he liked!

Riess: It sounds like he wasn't afraid to use the power that money had.

Roth: He had dreams at night and his dreams would come true. This was really
remarkable.

Riess: What is an example?

Roth: An example of one dream was when he dreamt he'd be thrown out of the

rig and he was. It was amazing. His dreams came true when he had these
nightmares. It was funny. I have never known anyone like that.

Riess: Can you think of other examples?

Roth: No, I can't think of anything else. Mother knew most of them because
he would tell her. But there were many.

Physically he was very strong.

21

Riess: All of the reports talk about him as "barrel-chested."

Roth: Barrel-chested, right. He was driving all of the directors of the

company from someplace in Hawaii, I think with four horses. The horses
ran away and they were all thrown out of the rig. It went right over
his chest and everybody else had broken arms and legs and ribs. But
he didn't even have a broken rib.

Riess: With the long day that he had, when did he get up in the morning?

Roth: Not too early. He ate breakfast at eight.

Riess: Would your mother get up to see everybody off?

Roth: Yes.

Riess: Did he have a place where he stopped to get the familiar red carnation
for his buttonhole?

Roth: Yes. When we were in the country, he had it in the country in the home.
I don't know where he got it, but he always had one, red or white;
generally red. He loved red.

Riess: Is your interest in flowers a heritage from him or your mother?

Roth: I think maybe more from Mother, but he loved flowers. He didn't know
anything about them, but he loved them.

Riess: I wanted to get a sense of his routine. Did he stop at the barber, did
he spend much time with the tailor, et cetera?

Roth: No, I don't imagine that he spent much time at the tailor's. Of course,
further on he went to the club for lunch. But in the old days they ate
down on California Street right near the office because in the early
days they went by horse and carriage. Lawson's Stable was at the
bottom of California Street.

Riess: In the early days, wouldn't he have had to get up very early just to
compete for business?

Roth: Oh, maybe then, but I don't remember then.

Riess: When you say he ate at the club, I know he belonged to a number of
clubs .

Roth: He ate at the Pacific Union Club. That's later, much later. In the
early days I don't suppose there was a club. I'm sure there wasn't.

22

Riess:

Roth:
Riess ;
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess;
Roth:
Riess ;
Roth:

What are your impressions — your own observations — of how he fit in?
He was a successful man of business, but still he was different
from the rest of the people in the Pacific Union Club. Or was he?
Maybe in that day there were a lot of rugged individuals.

By the time that there was a Pacific Union Club, he could fit in.
The rough edges —

[chuckles] The rough edges were gone, and his edges weren't that
rough. His history is rough, but the edges weren't rough and maybe
because his history was so rough, it refines the rest. I always had
that feeling that he was so sensitive to the things that were a
little different in him that it was easy for him to acquire them, if
you see what I mean. He knew the things he was missing and there
weren't too many.

Was he interested in other financial investments?

There were some gold mines. You always had to have gold mines,
[laughs] He had gold mines in Mexico. One gold mine, he was almost
killed and then he really got out of gold mines.

He was washing gold?

No, he was riding across a stream and a Mexican told him not to do it.
But my father did not like to be told not to do anything if he decided
to do it. So he wanted to get home and the only way he could get home
quickly was to get over this river. So he did it and the river knocked
the horse down and they were washed down about a half a mile and he
was nearly killed.

I wonder if he had a dream about that one .

He probably did.

I take it he didn't learn anything from his dreams.

No, nothing that he could avoid anyway. Nothing he could avoid,
he never wanted to be told not to do things. In other words, he
didn't want to feel that he couldn't do it.

No,

In the oil fields this very famous Mexican had a beautiful horse
and my father went down on one of his weekends and the Mexican said,
"Captain Matson, you're going to ride my horse, but you must not get
on from the ground. You must get on from the porch." My father was
a beautiful rider and to tell him to get on from the porch was some
thing he wouldn't do. So he got on from the ground and the horse threw
him right over his head and he broke his arm! [laughs] He didn't
like to be told, you see.

23

Roth: He came home — I never will forget it — he had the broken arm. We had
automobiles then, I think. Anyway, I took him to the hospital. He
was to go in and have an anesthetic and have it set. They wheeled
somebody by him and he said, "Where is that man going?" The nurse
said, "Oh, he's going in to have his leg set." My father said, "I
don't want to have any anesthetic." So he wouldn't take any
anesthetic. He just had them set it.

Riess: He never would say afterwards, "I should have listened to that man?"

Roth: Oh, no. [chuckles] Oh, no, he wouldn't say that. I'm sure he felt
it.

Riess: Would he condone that kind of shall we call it "pig-headedness" in
you?

Roth: Well, it never came up.

Riess: He might have said to you, "Lurline, you will go to Europe or you will
do this or you will do that." Were there ever confrontations where
you would say, "No, I will not do that?"

Roth: No. I never said no to my father. He was too good to me. I couldn't
say no. I wouldn't say no. I didn't always think he was right because

I know that other girls had — I wasn't allowed to smoke,
things I wasn't allowed to do. But you get used to it.

A lot of

Growing Up

Country, Vacations, Houses

Riess: It sounds like earlier you were a bit of a tomboy.
Roth: I was a little bit. I was always out of doors.
Riess: Then eventually did you "come out" in society?

Roth: Oh, yes, they had a party. In those days, you went to the Greenway
Ball at the Fairmont. That was the big coming out party. Everybody
came out there.

Riess: Your recollections of life at Leeside?

Roth: Oh, wonderful days! I loved the country. I loved the horses, and as
a child I'd follow the man plowing the fields with my dog and think I
was plowing, too.

24

Riess : The place in the country had land attached to it?

Roth: Oh, yes. Next time you come down I'll bring some pictures of it from
an old book. It was just the worst-looking old house, a farm house.

Riess: Was it really being farmed?

Roth: We had cows (milk cows) and horses.

Riess: But during the winter when you weren't there —

Roth: We had somebody there.

Riess: Did you raise these things in order to keep the horses in hay,
basically?

Roth: Yes, that's it — noncommercial.

Riess : Were the cows for your own milk?

Roth: Our own milk and cream and buttermilk.

Riess : What kind of dogs did you have?

Roth: Shepherds. Collies. My dog's name was Jessie. Old Jessie sure
suffered with me!

Riess : Why?

Roth: Well, her tail used to get caught in the tricycle. [laughter]
[Interview 2: October 6, 1980]##

Roth: I liked adventure, to see the world, I guess. So I would go with my

dog from Leeside on a trip somewhere down the road. Then when I would
see the family looking for me, I'd dive into the ditch and hide in the
grass — there were little ditches on the side of the road — and hold the
dog down so he wouldn't bark.

Riess: Then would you turn yourself in or would you be discovered?

Roth: Discovered because then I would be too frightened to turn myself in!
[laughter]

Riess: Who was the disciplinarian in the family?

Roth: My mother. My father was very easy going as far as I was concerned.
I could do anything mostly.

Riess: Did your father tell sea stories?

25

Roth: No, he didn't. As a matter of fact, he really put his early life behind
him and started new. He didn't discuss his early days at all. That's
why I know very little about them. By then I think he just wanted to
build up a new life and he wanted it better and he put that all behind
him. It was a new life he started when he bought his first ship. I
think he just wanted everything to be different. I think he wanted to
forget the trip around the Horn and working on the scow and losing
his mother and father and all that part of his early life.

Riess : What did you do for family outings other than when you were going all
the way to the Islands?

Roth: Go to a spring or a hotel over the weekend, like Byron Springs, and

maybe go to Monterey for a weekend. Then he always had me take friends.
I always had another girl. There would be a couple of boys too.

Riess : Really?

Roth: Oh, yes, and we'd have a good time.

Riess: It sounds like surrounding you with pleasure was one of the things
that gave him —

• Roth: It gave him pleasure. He loved young people. .
Riess: Do you have memories of the old Palace Hotel?

Roth: Oh, yes, yes. We used to go from Leeside over to the theater and spend
the night at the Palace.

Riess: Leeside was a summer home and you rented places in town, but it still
made sense to stay at the Palace?

Roth: We only rented during the winter for six months or something.
Riess: When I think of a life that unrooted, it makes me very uneasy.

Roth: It made my mother very uneasy. She said she was sick and tired of houses
with the "Northwest Passage." All those old houses had a long hallway
that went the whole length of the house and Mother always said, "I
can't stand to have another house with that Northwest Passage!"
[laughter]

Riess: She would wish to have settled down in one house.

Roth: Yes, but when my father finally bought a house, he didn't even take
Mother with him. He saw one that he liked and he bought it and just
came home and said, "I bought a house."

26

Horses

Riess: You said when we first talked that your father was horse-poor. Your
mother disapproved, and so your father secreted these horses around
the East Bay.

Roth: Every captain of a ship had a horse to take care of. And I don't
know what he had them for! But he did have good horses, good race
horses, Standardbred, trotting. And in those days they had amateur
driving, which they don't have now.

You needed a good pair of horses, for driving a rig. And my
mother needed a horse, and my father needed a horse. The race horses
were different. You needed a trainer for them.

Riess: What happened to all those horses when he died? Did you inherit them?

Roth: No, he'd been sick for a long enough time that he'd gotten rid of
his race horses, and most of his horses, because of course the
automobile came along.

Riess: What stable did he use in the city?

Roth: In the city he used Lawson's at the foot of California Street. It was
near the office. As a matter of fact, he had one horse that used to go
from the office to the stable by itself. It wasn't very far, about two
blocks I think. It used to go right home to roost.

Riess : Do you think your father knew James Ben Ali Haggin who was from
Kentucky and a great horse person?

Ro th : No .

Riess: How about Lloyd Tevis?

Roth: No, he wasn't born when my father was alive. It might be Lloyd Tevis 's
father. I don't think my father knew him.

Riess: Senator Latham who had stables in Menlo Park?

Roth: No, he didn't. We didn't know anyone in Menlo Park in those days.
We went across the Bay.

Riess: Who were your good friends who would come out on outings or weekends
with you?

Roth: Jane (Mrs. Alfred) Swinerton, Marie Kales of Alameda, Maidie McMahon.

Her grandfather, Captain Nelson, was a steamship man who lived right down
below Mills College on Seminary Avenue which was a street that led to
Mills.

27

Consular Responsibilities

Riess: What was your father's territory as consul?

Roth: It was the entire west coast, and as he didn't speak Swedish he hired
someone and paid the salary himeself for a vice consul, and the vice
consul did all the work. Most of the work we had was that when anyone
came from Sweden, they always wanted to stay with us.

Riess: Did that mean an interesting group of people?

Roth: [chuckles] A couple of times it was interesting and sometimes it
wasn1 t.

Riess: When they came to stay did you have a role as "the consul's daughter"
to show them the town?

Roth: Yes, yes, and that wasn't always such fun. Several very, very

interesting friends we made through those visits, but it wasn't always
that easy.

Riess: What did showing them the town amount to?

Roth: I completely forget at this time. I really wouldn't remember. Probably
a drive to the country to show them some of the country.

Riess: Would you have a tea or something and invite a lot of people in to
meet them?

Roth: No, we did not do that.

Riess: Did you celebrate the Swedish holidays?

Roth: No, no Swedish [holidays], though the Swedish Christmas service is so
beautiful, with the candles in the hair.

•*
Riess: Did you do that?

Roth: No. [laughs] I never had candles in my hair!

Education, Study in Paris

Roth: At that period I had no education but my mother's teaching and maybe

kindergarten because I never went to school until I went into the second
grade on account of Leeside.

28

Riess :

Roth:

Riess: The irregularity of all that didn't bother you?

Roth: Well, I wasn't at the head of the class, let's put it that way —
which disappointed my father a great deal. Later on I did better
but in the beginning, the first year when I went to Pacific Heights,
I was next to last and I really thought I had accomplished something,
but my father didn't seem to feel that way about it! [laughs] He
was very upset. But I had just started school and I hadn't been
with a lot of children before and I was bashful, and nearsighted. In
those days, you sat in the back of the room and you couldn't see and
things were different then. But I got to be the head of the class,
which satisfied my father!

When you were at the [San Francisco] Art Institute, you were living at
home?

Yes, I was at home. Then I went to Paris, and studied singing six
months there. I stayed at a French pension. We spoke French. There
were four English girls who were there and I was the only American.
I enjoyed that.

Riess: Was it serious, this studying of music?

Roth: Yes, I was serious with my singing. I would have 'liked to have been
an opera star really. My mother sang. She had a lovely voice. I
always sang and loved it.

Riess : Would your family have thought that would be all right for you to have
become a performer?

Roth: I don't think so, and I didn't have the disposition to do it. I am

fundamentally lazy, I think. I always sort of had the habit of putting
things over on my teachers and so I don't think that you can be
serious with that tendency. But I always think of it because I loved
it. That's why I hate losing my voice now. I can't sing a thing.

Riess: You were in Paris at a very interesting time.

Roth: It was, but I wasn't that interested. I was pretty busy and had a
lesson every day. I would have to go to it and I would have to go
across Paris and then study a bit at home.

Riess: You would have been expected back at the pension?

Roth: Oh, yes, oh, yes. They expected me back.

Riess: What about lingering in a cafe where there would be artists?

Roth: I didn't. I didn't know enough to I don't think. I went right back.

29

Riess: Your parents weren't concerned about you being off on your own?

Roth: No, they weren't.

Riess : I take it you didn't visit Gertrude Stein when you were in Paris!

Roth: No, I didn't.

Riess: You must forgive me. I am curious about those times and those places.

Roth: Well, living in the French pension you just probably don't hear about
Stein.

Then I continued my lessons when I came home. I took singing
lessons even after I was married.

Riess: Who were your teachers here?

Roth: I think his name was Molyneux; I think that was his name, but I'm not
sure.

Riess: You said you weren't disciplined, but it sounds like you must have put
in a couple of hours on scales and things like that.

Roth: Oh, yes, I had to study, of course. In the meantime, I was also keeping
up my languages. I was busy.

30

II MARRIAGE

William P. Roth

Courtship and Job

Riess: Were you also being courted then by William Roth?

Roth: I didn't meet Bill until about 1912, I think. Then we were engaged
right away.

Riess: During the singing period, you were just waiting to see what was going
to happen with your life?

Roth: Yes, that's it — and it happened!

Riess: Tell me a little bit about how it happened and where you met him.

Roth: I met him in Hawaii the first night we arrived one trip and that was
it. The first night.

Riess: That will never make a novel, to just say that was it!

Roth: Well, that was it, that was it! We were married. My father didn't

want me to get married. I think he just wanted to keep me home really.
I'm sure he did because I waited two years before I was married.

Riess: Did he put actual obstacles in the way?

Roth: Oh, yes, any obstacle he could. Bill was in the brokerage business and
he didn't like brokers. So he didn't like that business. I wasn't
to be married to anybody in the brokerage business. [laughter]

Riess: Bill asked your father for your hand?

•

Lurline Matson Roth

Lurline and Bill Roth

.•.

The twins' debut at Filoli, 1939

Billy, Lurline, and Berenice, 1922

31

Roth: Yes, and he said to wait a year. So we waited another year.

Riess: Then in the meantime were negotiations made for Bill to come into the
shipping business?

Roth: No, my father was hoping it would break off [laughs], no negotiations.
But at the end of the year then he had to give in. Then Bill sold his
business and moved here and became the lowest in the company, which
is the secretary of Matson, which was very difficult for him, because
he was a very popular extra man in Honolulu and everybody adored him,
and then to come here where he knew really no one and start at the bottom
when you had had your own business was a little difficult. I know he
was, I'm sure, lonesome sometimes until he made friends, which he did
easily. He was the type that always had so many friends, and then
landed in a new company and not a member of a club or anything. It
was hard for him.

Riess: He must have had connections here because of Stanford.

Roth: Oh, yes.

Riess : In that year of courtship —

Roth: It was no courtship! I wasn't supposed to see him or to write, for a
year. Oh, my father was strict. Of course, we didn't pay much
attention to that.

Riess: It's not that your father had picked somebody else for you who was
more appropriate.

Roth: No, he hadn't. No, I think he just wanted to keep me in the house.

Riess: Do you remember when you were courting what your life plans were, what
you'd like to achieve or how?

Roth: Naturally, Bill wanted to achieve, to move up in the company, but my
father unfortunately died two years after we were married. So he
didn't have an opportunity to move up. Then Mr. Tenney became
president of Matson, and when he died he [Bill] was still very young
to become president of a big company. But he was made president and
did a really wonderful job with Matson. He had lots of vision and
[brought in] the tourist business and ha really made good. My father
would have been proud in the end of him.

Riess: Was your father reconciled to it?

Roth: Oh, yes. As soon as we were married it was all right.

Riess: You had grandchildren for him to see before he died.

32

Roth: I was married in '14 and Bill was born in '16. The twins were born
in 1920, four years later. Bill was just a year old when my father
died. So he had the fun of seeing him. That it was a boy was good,
it was fun.

Riess: I wondered if Bill has any memories of that grandfather, but he couldn't
have.

Roth: But he has wonderful memories of his grandmother because she took him
on several trips to Europe when he was a little boy. She was good
with children.

Riess: After your father died, did she live on in that house?

Roth: No, she built a new house on the same grounds and eventually gave the
new house to us and built another house for herself. So that's why
now there are two houses, but one house was built two years after the
other, 1918 and 1916 Jackson. Everyone thinks that the two houses
were built together, but one was built two years later. The original
house was too big. She wanted a small house.

Riess: Was your early married life on a budget or did you have help?

Roth: Oh, I had help through my father.

Riess: Did you have a nurse for the baby and that kind of thing?

Roth: Not for Bill, but I did when the twins came. They were premature. As
a matter of fact, I had to have a trained nurse for a long time because
they were really a problem. No, we had to be pretty careful because
Bill had sold his business and when the children came he was still
secretary and that's not a very big salary.

The Roth Family

Riess: Was he being supported by his family at all?

Roth: Oh, no.

Riess: Why had he come to the Islands?

Roth: I can't tell you.

Riess: Tell me a little bit about his family.

Roth: He had four sisters (I'm not sure, but I think so) and his mother was
alive when I was married. His father had passed on. His father came
from Austria. As a matter of fact, there is a town over there called
Roth.

33

Roth: He was not the oldest in his family, he had a brother. His one

youngest sister he put through college; because he went to college
he put [through] his youngest sister, Alice. She is Mrs. Frank
Thompson and the only one alive now. She married an attorney in Hawaii.

Riess: I know that your husband was always a fine tennis player.

Roth: He was the amateur champion at Stanford I believe. He loved tennis.
He played golf later, but tennis was his first love.

Riess: How about riding?

Roth: No, he didn't ride. Once in awhile he'd go on a trail trip with me
at Woodside, but mostly under protest, though.

Bill really loved Filoli. He walked in the garden every morning
before he went to work, and every night when he came home. And you
know, Filoli is big, but it's not too big for two people to live in.
For me alone, it was terrible, but for two people. you're not lonely.
You sit in the back room, and the fire's going, and you're part of the
house. When you're there alone and you walk upstairs and pass seven
bedrooms to your bedroom, it's lonely.

The Fair, The Honeymoon

Riess: Before you moved to Woodside, where did you stable your horses in the
city?

Roth: Hmm, good question.
Riess: Golden Gate Park?

Roth: Yes, I guess I must have had them at Golden Gate Park probably because
often in the old days I used to take a horse to Honolulu if we were
going to be there a month, so I could ride down there.

Riess: Surely they had horses in Honolulu.

Roth: Yes, but you like your own horse.

Riess: I'm sure they weren't fond of traveling across the seas with you.

Roth: It didn't hurt them. [looking at pictures] Here are the twins.

Those horses they have belonged to Mr. Macy Willits and he had twin
daughters, and the horses were sisters.

That's my first horse.

34

Riess :

Roth:

[reading] "Winner of Pacific Fair, 1915.
horse's name?

Mavis . " Mavis was the

Riess:
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Yes. My father bought that horse [Mavis]. I wouldn't have been able

to pay for it because it came from Kentucky, and one of the best riders

from Kentucky came out to ride it. So the picture is taken out by the
stable there.

And the reason I remember that 1915 Fair is that Bill and I were
living at Mother and Father's house because we'd both been sick, and
life had become very complicated, so we moved back to Mother's. And
one night, at about a quarter to one in the morning, the telephone rang
and it was in my father's room, and he answered it, and it was for Bill
Roth, and it was a woman's voice. She asked to speak to Bill, and of
course my father got a little upset. [laughter] We hadn't been
married too long.

So the next morning at breakfast, when Bill came down, my father
said, "Bill, some woman rang you up at quarter of one last night!"
Well, who do you suppose it was? Alice Longworth, and she was out at
a party down at the Fair and somebody mentioned that Billy Roth was
married. "Oh," she said, "I love Billy Roth, I must call him."

Well, it didn't make a hit with my father!
Did you go on a honeymoon when you were married?

Yes, we went to Canada. And I got sciatica. The groom had to take the
bride home. I had sciatica and couldn't get out of bed. And I suffered
with sciatica all those early years of my marriage.

Did it have something to do with the riding?

No, the riding helped it. No, I just had it and I couldn't move out of
bed. We got as far as Lake Louise and there I was. So Bill said, "I
think I'd better take you home." So there ended our honeymoon.

The Airplane Business: Amelia Earhart

Riess: He was very busy in those early days?

Roth: Very busy. He worked very, very hard.

Riess: Because the company was expanding.

Roth: Yes, and they wanted to go into the airplane business.

35

Riess:
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

When did they start thinking about that?

Probably about the middle of the thirties, I guess. As a matter of
fact, they owned two planes which they ran in the Islands for a short
while, while they were trying to get the permit from Washington. But
they were denied the permit because Washington felt that they would
be the biggest in the shipping business, that they shouldn't be in the
plane business.

As a matter of fact, my first trip up in the air was with Amelia
Earhart, the first time. She came out here on her way when she made
the trip to the South Pacific and they asked if she could spend the two
nights with us because she did not want to go to a hotel.

Who asked?

Washihgton. I don't remember. So she spent two nights with us. The
first night she gave a lecture at the Fairmont Hotel, I remember, and
then Sunday she said, "Would you like to go up?" I had never been up.
Bill had, but I hadn't. I was terrified, but I thought if I couldn't
go up with Amelia Earhart, who was about to cross the Pacific, I would
never go up! So I went up in her plane. They had taken all of the
furniture out, it was stripped, and there was one little seat for me
to sit on behind her, and we flew all over the city. I was so scared
but, after all, I did have confidence in her.

I'll never forget Sunday night I said, "Is there anything special
you would like for breakfast?" She said, "Yes, I would like buttermilk."
Did you ever try to get buttermilk on Sunday night? Bill and I walked
the length of Polk Street. We finally found buttermilk and brought it
home to her.

She was so nice, and she was very attractive.

I'm certainly glad you went up! Did she have the plane down at San
Francisco Airport or was it closer?

In those days it was a little nearer town, further up. It was at
Tanforan. That was where they had the air field.

Did she seem kind of a strange lone soul?

Not to me. But not knowing whatever happened to her makes you wonder what
did happen.

36

The Twins

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess:

Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

When did you realize you were going to have twins?

I realized it one week before they were born, and there was no place
in the house for the twins because I was going to put the baby in
little Billy Roth's room who was then four years old, but you
couldn't put twins in the boy's room. That was one too many for him.

So I called this friend of mine at eight in the morning (Alfred
Swinerton) and I said, "Alfred, come right over as soon as you get
out of bed!" So, of course, his wife said right away, "Telephone
right back. Maybe the Roths have had a fight."

Alfred arrived and he said, "What is the matter?" I said, "You
have one week to raise the roof so I can have another bedroom." And
he did it in a week. We raised a part of the roof so we could have
another bedroom! As a matter of fact, the twins didn't get home in a
week, so it gave him a little more time.

Were they very tiny?

Yes, three and a half pounds and four and a half, and that's pretty
small. There weren't incubaters, but I had to leave them at the
hospital for a couple of weeks.

They are identical twins .

Identical; they were really hard to tell apart, really hard,
blue on one and pink on the other.

We had

I know that when Lurline was looking at a picture of herself and Berenice
that she showed at the talk at Filoli, she had to think about it before
she could remember.

Yes, it was hard to tell from the pictures, you could be confused.
But when you saw them, one weighed more.

Were there any twins in your family background?

I believe my mother's mother's family. Her mother had twins and they
had both died. So I didn't know anything about them.

The doctor hadn't heard two heartbeats?

No, he never told me. I don't think he ever did hear them. He only
knew one week ahead, but don't forget, they came almost a month ahead.

37

Roth: But twins are the most wonderful thing because they are so interesting,
especially identical twins. I think it's different with twins that
are not identical.

fi

Roth: For instance, I never could discipline one without the other standing
up for her sister. If one would lose a tooth, the other would lose a
tooth. That always happened, even through an accident maybe — falling
off something — then next week the other would lose a tooth. It's
always gone that way. It's the bond they have together — not that they
agree because both of my twins are not alike at all, not alike in
disposition at all. But there is this bond that if anything comes up
they're like one person.

Riess: Did they have a secret language?

Roth: I don't know.

Riess: Did they communicate in some ways that you could not understand?

Roth: No, I don't think so.

Riess: Did you keep them dressed as twins?

Roth: They dressed together I think until they were married. I had fun doing
that and I think that they enjoyed it. They didn't have to, I didn't
care. But I think they dressed together.

Riess: If they were identical I guess they wouldn't compete in the way that
sisters ordinarily would.

Roth: They couldn't because Bren had the trouble with her eyes and I had to
take her out of school and start her with Braille. It was difficult
for her and she went back to school and took her examinations and
graduated, but it was awfully hard because the doctor said she must
not be in classrooms all day. She had to be out exercising; during
that period of her life she must have fresh air exercise or the eyes
would go back. They were borderline, you see. So she made it.

Woodside

"Why Worry"

Riess: When did you pick up with your family and move down to Woodside?

38

Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:
Riess
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess ;
Roth:

In 1937. Before Filoli we had "Why Worry" [in Woodside] which we
loved. We went down every summer, not too much in the winter, but
every summer. In those days, my husband was very busy and he really
was not enthusiastic about going to Woodside, even in the summers I
must say! But when we had Filoli he loved it then and didn't want
to move back to town.

In Woodside did you have the amenities that he liked?
We belonged to the club and we had nice parties.

My mother lived with us when we went down and she died there.
What was "Why Worry" like? What was the style of life like there?
Oh, it was great.
What kind of a house was it?

An old-fashioned house, just a house and that was it. But it had a
swimming pool and in those days in Woodside there were only two
swimming pools — our swimming pool and the Jacklings pool. So it was
always gay in the summer. The young people would either swim at the
Jacklings or at our place. So there was always a crowd.

My mother bought the land, the house, and then we built new
stables, because there weren't any there. The stables are still there,
and I still use them.

It sounds like your mother had long since reconciled herself to being
a horse woman, even though it was imposed on her by your father.

It was imposed on her but she knew it was in the family and [chuckles]
she had to live with it.

She recognized it in you too.

If she was going to live with me, she had to live with the horses,
she liked them, too, and Mother went to the horse shows with me.

Oh,

Buying Filoli

Roth: Filoli was really an accident.* We found out about it one Sunday at

luncheon. Someone said to my husband, "Why don't you buy Filoli? You
have twin daughters making their debut this year and starting to go out."

*includes material from Interview 4

39

Roth: Bill said, "Let's go look at it." I said, "Why? We are happy where
we are. What do we have to move for?" Bill said, "Let's go." So
we went and, well, anybody after looking at it couldn't [not] be
charmed with it. But at that period the Burlingame Country Club was
thinking of buying it for the Burlingame Club. Naturally we wouldn't
interfere with that. It wouldn't be right to bid against your club
and all your friends. But they didn't want it in the end. They thought
it was too far out.

So we bought it, within a week. We owned it within a week, which
was a pretty quick change from the old house I lived in in Woods ide to
Filoli! [laughter]

Riess : You really did have an immediate response.

Roth: Oh, you have to with Filoli because it is so beautiful. You can't
help but be charmed with it — the garden, the view, the mountains,
everything about it.

Riess: But the burden of running the home?

Roth: I never thought of that because, well, I just never thought about it.

Riess: What time of year was it when you first saw it?

Roth: It was in the fall, I think; summer, maybe, later summer I would think.

Riess: Was it all furnished?

Roth: Completely furnished, completely furnished, and according to the sale,
I was to pick out anything I wanted in the house at the price that it
was listed.

Riess: The banks had already —

Roth: They had had everything appraised. I was to take all of the time I
wanted to do that and I did. Naturally, I couldn't afford some
things — for instance, the tapestry for $75,000, I couldn't possibly
afford it. So I had to mark off a great many things because the things
were appraised at their real value and also I had nice things of my own.

At that period Lurline, my daughter, was sick and I had sent her
down to Palm Springs to get over this sinus attack she had and I had to
go down every weekend to see her. This one weekend, the second weekend
we owned the place, the bank — Filoli was controlled by three banks —
the bank asked if it would be all right if a few of their very close
customers came and picked out some of the things I hadn't tagged yet.
Well, I said "Yes," thinking it would be maybe four to six people who
would come in. "Perfectly all right."

40

Roth: I came back from Palm Springs on a Monday morning and the whole

courtyard was filled with cars! I saw my friends walking out with
furniture. So I went to the telephone and I burst into tears and I
said to Bill, "I won't live in Filoli." He said, "What has gone wrong?"
I said, "Everybody in the country is in our house pulling out all
our furniture." He said, "Stop that crying." "What will you do?"
I said, "You better buy the whole thing." So then he bought everything —
furniture and everything. Everybody was told to drop what they were
taking out. So people got to the front door with a chair, but they
didn't get it out the front door!

Riess: And did you buy the tapestries?

Roth: Everything, everything, and then we sold what we couldn't afford at a
three day auction. We kept, of course, lots of the things we couldn't
afford because with the auction we could do it. So in the end, I got
all of the tapestries. But a great many of my friends still have some
of the Filoli chairs!

They finally came in — and it was really funny — they finally came
in from a phone call from the banks and said, "Everybody must not take
another thing out of the house," and some people were right at the
front door! [laughter] And they didn't get out.

Riess: What kinds of papers were there around on the history of the house?

Roth: Really nothing because the Bourn's daughter [Maud] passed away, so there
was only Billy Vincent, the grandson, and his sister. She was married
and lived in Europe. So I had really very little history.

Riess: Were there plans around?

Roth: Yes, there were plans of the house, tons of plans — tons of plans!
The house was very well built. I had a plumber that always liked
crawling between the floors all over the house fixing the plumbing.

It was a very well built house. The bricks were all made to order.
They are a little different color from an ordinary bright red brick.
They are a soft color, a lovely color. They were made to order. Mr.
Bourn bought a lot of his stones from his sidewalk in town, in the
city, down, and used them in the garden in many places.

He used to drive around the place in a rig. I often saw him when
I lived in Woodside and we had permission to ride through the place.
You would see Mr. Bourn in his rig being driven around the back roads.
The back road of Filoli is the old Spanish road. It goes right through
the place and it is beautiful — oh, maybe five miles. The ferns and the
trees are really beautiful. He used to go driving.

41

Riess : That was also available for you to horseback ride?

Roth: Yes, in Woodside we were allowed, if we were a member of the Woodside
riding club, to drive.

Riess : Did you maintain that as an open place?

Roth: Oh, yes, we always kept it open. It's open still. The city has
permission, I believe, to go through, too.

So that's how we bought Filoli and we couldn't have been
happier — thirty years there.

.Riess: Did the Bourns have the same attachment to the furniture and furnishings
that you feel?

Roth: Oh, I think Mrs. Bourn did. She was the most wonderful housekeeper.
Every piece of furniture had the history in it.

I used to have the history of this piece right in here [cabinet
next to Mrs. Roth's desk]. But it's so valuable now, I have it in the
safe. But I could open this drawer and here it would tell all about
this piece of furniture.

Riess: Was the furniture accumulated by her or was it handed down to her?

Roth: No, it was accumulated by her. But she hadn't lived in the house that
long.

Riess: Was the house in any way a public place in the Bourn's time?

Roth: No, I would not say it was. Although Mrs. Bourn loved music, and
Paderewski played there, and my piano that was on the stage she
bought for him to play a concert at Filoli. She had teas with music.
But they were both sick quite a bit during their life there, so I
don't think they entertained too much.

42

III EORSES

[Interview 3: October 20, 1980]##

Roth: After my father's death, I started with a real show stable which is
different from having one good horse, and went in the twenties to
Kansas City to buy horses from Loulu Long Combs who was probably our
greatest horsewoman in America. She lived at Lee Summit, Missouri,
and her father was Eli Long who was from the great lumber company in
Washington.

Riess: How did you decide to put all of your eggs into this basket?

Roth: Because in the first place she was a friend, and in the second place
she had the best and was also an amateur.

I bought, at that time, a five-gaited horse, a three-gaited horse,
a Standardbred road horse, a big Hackney horse, a Hackney pony, and a
jumper — a complete stable. We hired the trainer and shipped directly
to Portland where there was a horse show going on, and I won every
championship there excepting with the jumper, and he knocked all the
fences down and I left him there. So that was really my start.

Riess: You had a phenomenal eye for horses! Did you pick them yourself or
did you have somebody with you?

Roth: No, I picked them. From then on I improved the stable because although
it was a good stable that I had picked it wasn't really good enough to
go to Madison Square or any of the eastern shows. So from then on I
eliminated and kept improving and improving until in the middle of the
twenties I really had quite a top stable. I was able to compete and I
went to New York (Madison Square). They had a wonderful show in Boston
at that time, Sewickley; and Devon, Pennsylvania. And Louisville, of
course, for saddle horses is the top of all shows.

In '25 I bought my great horse, Chief of Longview.

Riess: Tell me about women as great horse breeders. Is there a longstanding
tradition?

43

Roth:

Riess:

Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Oh, yes, there were so many women that were so good in the east in
those days. After all, a ladies phaeton class is a woman's class,
so a man couldn't be interested in that. Most of the men riding were
professionals and all the amateurs rode, drove, in the Hackneys especially
because all of these classes are really classes that amateurs could do
just as well as a professional.

When you went to purchase that first stable of horses did you have a
trainer with you to advise you?

I didn't have a trainer then. I got the stable and then got the
trainers and from then on had trainers all through my life, different
ones, as they lasted. I had the greatest trainer in the world in
Lon Hay den who rode the Chief of Longview. He was a lot of trouble
because he had a drinking problem.

That often is associated with stables.

[laughs] It goes with it! It's par for the course! But he was the
greatest — I think most anyone would say — he was the greatest five-
gaited rider there was. He rode the Chief; he and the Chief were
together. I remember once I lost the wheel off my rig way at the other
end of the ring and Lon was down by the gate and he just said, "Whoa,"
and the horse stopped, and I'm driving him! That's how they were
together.

He [the Chief] was known as "The Great Parader." When I took him
to the Boston show, so many people came to see him that they took the
door right off the front of his stall and [we] just put a rope across.
He was a stallion, which rarely could -do a thing like that.

He had that good nature.

Good nature and loved the crowd,
loved a crowd!

When did you start showing him?

He was a ham actor really and he just

I started showing him in '25. I guess he was a three-year old maybe
when I bought him. He showed until I thought that he had showed
enough as a gaited horse, then we showed him in fine harness. And in
fine harness I drove him and I was never defeated, never defeated with
him and he wasn't easy to drive.

Now, this (looking at book] is typical fine harness because a fine
harness always is a horse that looks beautiful driving.

Riess: And holds itself in a very proud way.

44

Roth: And that was born with him, so I didn't have to do anything about it.
He had that kind of a face.

He was in the fire at Oakland. The horse show was going on there
in the big auditorium, but the stalls were outside, wooden stalls.
About four hundred horses were burned. I lost three in my stable.
The fire started behind the Chief of Longview's stall, but they got
him out right away, and they say he was parading around like he thought
the fire was in his honor!

The Los Angeles Herald , the girl down there wrote quite an article
on the Chief of Longview in the fire. It was called "The Great Parader
in the Oakland Fire." So that was published in all the papers because
horses in a fire run back to the fire. Instead of running backward,
they held him and he was just parading around.

We got all our horses out but three and unfortunately one of my
best pairs was burned and it split up my pair. One I had just bought
the night before — just had delivered the check the night before! He
was dead the next day.

Then after the Chief I had Sweetheart on Parade who was my grey
mare. I mention these two because of all the horses I have had,
they are really both famous. Everybody knows Sweetheart on Parade
and Chief of Longview. If they know horses, they have heard of them.

Riess: Chief of Longview comes from Harrison Chief I have read.

Roth: Yes, Independence Chief and Harrison Chief. He was very well bred,
but Loulu had not used the stallion that he was by for her good
mares, she was using another stallion. Then suddenly she changed
and bred this mare to Independence Chief.

Riess: You got the Chief of Longview from Loulu?

Roth: Yes, later, and the trainer, who was one of her trainers — she had three—
didn't want to come to California, but he finally came and he stayed
with me until he died. That was Lon Hayden.

Riess: Loulu let you know she had this choice horse?

Roth: Yes, Mother and I looked at him six months before we bought him. My
mother bought him.

As a matter of fact, my husband was very upset that my mother
bought this horse because she paid $25,000, which was in the newspapers,
and unfortunately, during that time there was a strike on the docks
and Bill felt very uncomfortable walking down on the pier, knowing
that all those men had read in the paper that his wife had a $25,000
horse. It was embarrassing for him.

45

Roth: But _1 didn't buy the horse; my mother bought the horse. I mean she
gave it to me which explained it, but it was a little bit touchy at
the time.

Riess: In that first two-year period, how much of a horse's learning goes on?
Is it fully gaited?

Roth: They are really started. He was really famous because he won the aged
championship when he was only three years old. As a rule, you show
two-year-olds and three-year-olds in their own classes but not against
a four-year-old or a five-year-old. He won what they call a championship
as a three-year-old which was something that I don't think has ever
happened since either. Then he won the state championship at Louisville
twice, the stallion championship three times, and Sweetheart won it also.

She was as great as he was. She followed him. I really retired
him a little early because she was right there ready to go. Now, she
was from Tennessee and very beautiful.

Riess: What was the stable that you bought her from?

Roth: I bought her from Bill Shropshire. She was half Standardbred.

Riess: When you show horses, it's not the breeding, it's the gait?

Roth: As a rule, the breeding comes to the front. I mean a horse that will
have a really outstanding trot generally is by a stallion that has a
good trot. You don't want ta breed to a stallion that only goes in
front and doesn't go off his hocks.

Riess: So it isn't just learning.

Roth: It isn't just learning. Breeding has a lot to do with it. I've been
on the American Saddle Registry board for years.

Riess: Once you developed your own stable down at Why Worry, you were then a
breeder?

Roth: Yes, then I started having various stallions, or mares with no stallion.
But I always had brood mares. I have now a stallion in Kentucky and
probably eight top brood mares. So I hope to get top colts. This was
my first year and they were all good this year. So I am very happy.

Riess: When can you tell that you have top colts?

Roth: Oh, you can tell when the colt's born sometimes, by what they can do
when they are a baby. One of the best I ever had I could tell— I
bought her when she was twelve days old.

46

Riess : What can she do other than frisk around in the meadow?

Roth: She can trot.

Riess: I thought that was a learned gait.

Roth: It's not a learned gait. You can teach them a lot of things, but you
can't teach them to trot properly. For a saddle horse, their natural
gait should be trotting. For a Thoroughbred, galloping would be their
gait; it wouldn't be trotting.

Sometimes they're good when they're five days old, then something
happens and they don't turn out, but this is luck.

Riess: Then the time spent with the mare, is that an important learning time
for the colt?

Roth: I don't think so, no. It's growing time, that's all. I think the
mother has a great deal to do with it, the breeding on the mother's
side. I'm very careful with my mares. They are all well bred from
stallions with a predigree that I know is good. Then they should be
good looking in conformation.

Riess: Did you use Sweetheart or Chief of Longview for breeding?

Roth: Yes, Sweetheart had two colts and one was quite good and the other
was mediocre. The Chief I bred. I won a couple of futurities in
Kentucky with his colts; very nice colts he had. But I only bred him
a short time, maybe a couple of years. So he didn't have too many and
he didn't have the opportunity with too many good mares because he was
East then.

Riess: Most of the action is still in the East?

Roth: Oh, yes, in the East because Kentucky is the big show. Madison Square
is really for hunters. It used to be different, but now it's mostly
hunters and the foreign teams.

Riess: Then the horse country of Virginia, that area?

Roth: That's the hunters, and they have gaited horses there because Devon

[is there]. Then in the East there are a great many Hackneys because
all of those eastern families have been driving for years and have
stables. Loulu Combs was the greatest.

Riess: She came from the West originally?

Roth: Yes, from Washington, from Longview, which had the biggest lumber

[company]. Her father never took a drink, Loulu never took a drink,
wouldn't show horses. . .

47

Riess: Why do you mention that right away?

Roth: [laughs] Well, I mention it because she was different from anyone else.
They never showed horses on Sunday.

Riess: Do you think that when the drinking and the horses get mixed, that
horses sometimes get mistreated?

Roth: No, they don't get mistreated because most people who love horses
don't mistreat them.

Riess: I wonder why the drinking is so prevalent.

Roth: Oh, because they just all get together and "Let's have a drink" and
everybody does. They stay up late at night having fun.

Riess: Maybe if you've got a lot of Irish horse trainers — and probably a lot
of them are.

Roth: Sure, why certainly; Irish and Scots. I had, oh, probably four trainers
with my Hackneys that were all English.

I never had any trouble excepting with Lon Hayden. He was the
only one and he really became very bad. But he was older then and
probably his time was over. Anyway, he finally hung himself because
I wouldn't take him back after firing him. He came and asked if I'd
take him back. I said, "Lon, I can't. My husband won't allow me to."
Bill said I just couldn't have a man around the stable the way he was
acting.

Riess: How many men did you have working in the stable?

Roth: By then I had a number. In those days you could get people. Now you
can't get anyone. I have most all Mexicans now, excepting my trainer.

Riess: They have a good feeling for horses, don't they?

Roth: Yes, and also for the bottle. We get them out of jail! [laughs]

Riess: That combination does sound like you could have fires fairly easily.

Roth: It does, but we don't have any fires near us because I have a night
watchman. Ever since that fire [Oakland] I have always had a night
watchman. As a matter of fact, I had a night watchman that night.
That's why my horses got out. I had about fifteen horses there and
only lost three and most people lost most of their horses — four
hundred were burned. I always had a boy sleeping in the stable, and
a watchman. It's dangerous. They are wooden stalls and they are not
supposed to smoke but they do, so it's really dangerous.

48

Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess;
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:
Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess
Roth:

•»

Riess:
Roth:

Tomorrow [October 21, 1980] the horses go to the show. Tomorrow we
move them up to the Cow Palace. It's a small group now from what I
used to have.

|
What will you have there? [Grand National Horse Show, Cow Palace,

1980]

At the Cow Palace I will have a road horse, a three-gaited horse that
we raised, and two Hackney ponies. That will be four.

Will you have some member of the family showing them?

Mrs. Martin is showing the pony in the ladies amateur class. I have
a rider for the three-gaited horse and my trainer [Stan Morrison]
drives the ponies .

The children rode and they had three and five-gaited horses.
I don't think they ever rode at Madison Square but they did at Devon
which is a very big summer show in Philadelphia; a tremendous show.

Who did they learn to ride from out here?
Different trainers that I had.
There weren't riding schools?

Not in those days. Now there are. Now there is a lot of competition.
Of course, it's the amateurs that keep the stables up.

.
In the East you are really taught to ride.

In the East so many people buy one very good horse for their daughter,.
They don't have a stable of horses; they have one very good horse.

Which is then stabled somewhere in the vicinity?

With some trainer. But that's what keeps it going, that's what keeps "
the shows going.

They have these new cameras now, movies that you can take. I have
a very beautiful thing [videotape] of my pony taken in the ring. I
will probably have the man here do some, too, the movie man, if I can
get someone to do it. So you can run those tapes and see where your
mistakes are.

Also where your riders' mistakes are.

Yes, and he can see where his mistakes are. Those are all new things.

*v

Sweetheart on Parade

Mrs. William P. Roth, General Mark W. Clark,
and American Red Cross President Basil O'Connor,
San Francisco, June 23, 1948

Photo from recent sketch by Lloyd Sexton

Chief of Longvieu

-i

MRS. WILLIAM P. ROTH

49

Riess:
Roth:
Riess:
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess:
Ro th :

Riess:

Roth:

Riess :

Roth:

Riess:

Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Who taught you to ride?

Oh, I never was taught. I never had a lesson.

But it was the first trainer that you had?

I didn't even have a trainer. I just had a horse. You just get on the
horse and ride. That's nothing.

I thought there was skill in riding.

There is, but it has to be your hands; the skill is in your hands, not
your body, because anybody can ride. But the skill in riding is in
your hands .

There is a lot of nerve involved, don't you think?

Oh, yes, there is. I used to be terrified when I'd go in the ring
with the Chief of Longview for fear I'd be beaten, because I never
wanted to be beaten. But he made his own show and I didn't have to
do a thing. He just made it himself. Sometimes I couldn't possibly
hold him, but I always knew if I said, "Whoa," he'd stop for me. So
I just didn't worry.

I was asked to make his [Chief of Longview] final show at
Louisville. The governor was there that night and I planned it so
carefully. I was going twice around the ring one way and twice the
other and then make an outstanding exit, and let him go real fast.
Well, the two times each way worked perfectly but at my exit, he got
a little too excited and I could never have pulled him in. And I
thought at that time, right in front of the governor, I probably would
be thrown right out of the ring. [laughter] But I got to the end of
the ring and Lon said, "Whoa," and he stopped.

So it was an outstanding, thundering exit.

It was a thundering exit! Not on purpose though, not on purpose.

Would that all be reported in the papers?

Oh, yes.

Then Bill would read about his wife?

Oh, no, no, he was over that as soon as the strike was over,
he loved the Chief of Longview.

Did he come to the shows?

Yes, only when I rode or drove.

Oh , no ,

50

Riess: When I was saying "nerve" I guess I was thinking more of jumpers and
a certain kind of risk that is involved there.

Roth: Yes, that's different. I never jumped at all.
Riess: Did your daughters?

Roth: Lurline did. Yes, she broke her back jumping. She fell off and broke
her back. Both the twins rode, but then since they married, Lurline
is the only one because they have their ranch in Woodside. So she
rides a lot.

The granddaughters — Lolly Menzies rode hunters and was very good
until she started having the children. Once you have children you
can't ride. You can't do both things, it's impossible. So she gave
up her horses, but she had won many ribbons for a very good hunter
class. One of the Roths rode — Jessica rode. Then Brennie is my
granddaughter that drives.

Riess: In my foray into horse lore and so on, I came across the term "rack,"
for one of the gaits. What is that?

Roth: It's a gait that is taught the horse. They're not born with it, it's
taught. It's the fifth gait.

Riess: Can you recognize the horse that will have the capacity to do that?

Roth: If it's difficult for the horse, the horse isn't going to do it and

he isn't a five-gaited horse. It takes more out of a horse, I guess,
then a plain trot because there is a great deal of action.

Riess: "Rack, also called single foot — " [looking at book]

Roth: Single foot is an old expression they used to use for the rack. Single
foot and rack are the same. Rack is correct.

There also is the slow gait. The slow gait is the rack, only
slow, and your horse is really up on the bit and going slow and
very smart looking. Then when they say "rack" you go right from
that slow gait into a rack and then they must go fast, and if they
can't go fast they can't win.

Riess : Is it easier for them to do it fast?

Roth: No, because the problem is they're apt to break, because they get
going very fast, and they're apt to break, and one break and
everybody goes "ah!" and the horse is tied down [laughter]. Then
there is the trot, which is the third gait, the walk which is the
fourth, and the canter, which is the fifth.

51

Riess: Does the rack require a lot of control from the rider?

Roth: You sit to the saddle, but you change your holding of the bit because
on a trot you may have the horse on the bit, but in a rack the horse
must be free.

Riess: So once the horse goes into the rack —

Roth: They go from the curb to the snaffle. They use the snaffle on the
trot and then on the rack you use the curb. There is a curb bit so
you have to change your hands.

Riess: Riding is full of precision and correctness.
Roth: It is.

Riess: So that there is both some instinct involved but a lot of following
a certain rule.

Roth: Some people could just never learn how to ride properly. They would
be too stiff, or have no hands, and if you have no hands, that's the

really important thing.

Riess: Can the hands be seen early in the rider?

Roth: Oh, yes, you surely can see, if they get on a horse and start grabbing
the bit. Now, Lon Hayden rode a horse very heavily-bitted, with a
very sharp curb. I remember the many arguments we used to have with a
very, very prominent judge. He was a university man and he always said
to Lon, "You shouldn't ride that way." But Lon rode that way, but he
never took hold of the horse's mouth. His hands were so light that he
never had to touch it.

Riess: I read of American Saddlebred horses that they were highly trained,
fabulously expensive, "the peacocks of the show ring."

Roth: Yes, that's right. Now, you can pay $100,000 for a saddle horse.
That's what these people pay for their children's horses.

Riess: They have a long life, don't they?

Roth: Depending on when you get them. I don't think they go that long. The
horse does, if it's properly taken care of, but some people show too
often. I never showed more than six shows a year.

Riess: Then inbetween there is a period when the horse isn't training at all?

Roth: We'd sometimes turn them out for a couple of months really to run out
and rest.

52

Riess : It takes it out of the horse, the tension and; —

Roth: Yes, it does, because it's like the person riding or driving, you're
keyed up and the horse is keyed up.

Riess: Can that be looked for in breeding, that ability to tolerate tension?

Roth: Yes, you don't want to breed to a horse that hasn't a lot of heart. I
know some very good stallions in Kentucky that have some winning colts,
but the colts haven't enough heart. That means that they win when
they're small or maybe two-year olds. But then when they get into the
age group where they really have to put on a long show, they haven't
the heart. So there is a lot in breeding. It may be because [laughs]
I've been on the board [American Saddlebred Horse Association] so long
that I'm strong on breeding, but I always have been.

Riess: What are you able to accomplish as a board member of these various
groups?

Roth: Well, we tend to all of the registering of everything that is registered.
Riess: Give me an example of the sort of questions you deal with.

Roth: A question right now is publicity for the Saddlebred, because the
Quarter horses have come along and spent a fortune. They've spend
a fortune and they're going very strong. They have these big shows
which are the highest money given in any division. They're ahead of
the Thoroughbreds in the prize money. So the saddle horse people —
if you go to a horse show and you win fifty dollars for first prize
it doesn't help with the expenses of the stable much. It doesn't even
pay for the hay for the day.

Riess: But you say that people are still buying these $100,000 horses?

Roth: Yes, they are, but one horse. They advertise everybody can ride a
Quarter horse. Well, everybody could ride a saddle horse just the
same. But, they put it over and everybody does ride a Quarter horse.

Riess: Where is most of the Quarter horse breeding taking place?

Roth: California and Texas.

Riess: So it is really quite a different influence in the horse world.

Roth: It's amazing the people that have the Quarter horses. I mean $200,000
for a Quarter horse to show!

Riess: So you would worry then that the American Saddlebred horses would just
be phased out?

53

Roth: They won't be phased out, but it's [a struggle] trying to keep them up.

Riess : It's fun to dip into a book. I can tell you what I've read [about

American show horses] and you can tell me that it's perfect nonsense!
I've read that what you look for in the Quarter horse is unusually
deep and intelligent eyes. I wondered if that in fact is true, that
they have deeper eyes and that the deep eyes indicate intelligence?

Roth: [laughs] Definitely not! That's the build-up. You want a good eye

in any horse and I think the worst thing is a small eye or a white eye.

Riess: Large dilated nostrils are desirable — is that because in fact they can
breathe more that way?

Roth: No, that is not true. If they are large and dilated I would think that
they're tired and haven't enough breath or they've had some dope — which
they could have.

Riess: Is that just a recent problem?

Roth: No, it's been going on for years but I think now we're terribly aware.
They're fined and they test the horses.

t

Riess: Have you ever been in situations where it has been discovered?

Roth: Oh, ours are tested every time they win. Our Hackney pony, the poor
woman sits there in the stall with a bucket all night long because he
won't urinate and she's got to sit there until he does! (She is a
state inspector.) He's a horrible pony because some of them do it right
away, but he just will wait and wait and it's three in the morning
sometimes before she gets to go home! [laughter]

The American Horse Show Association tests all over the country.
California is the only state that does their own testing and they're
not as good really as they should be. They should be better.

Riess: Do you mean they miss?

Roth: They miss a lot.

Riess: Are there stories of bribery and scandal at that level?

Roth: No, if you are caught it goes to the Horse Show Association Committee.
It first is gone over by your state committee. (I'm on that
committee.) Then we recommend whether it should be a long time that
they should not be allowed to show or whether it was something that
wasn't really their fault.

54

Riess : It could be administered by the trainer and not known by the owner.

Roth: Yes, but we [the owners] are responsible. But there are some ways you
might not be responsible and that's why it goes through two committees.
Then they are allowed to come, both the owner and the trainer, and
explain why it happened. And it shouldn't happen because it shouldn't
be, you should not dope the horses.

Of course, the Tennessee walking horse people did it so much
because their horses suffered so that it gets rid of the pain that
people don't see.

Riess: So it was a humanitarian —

Roth: The Tennessee walking horses — it's not humanitarian when a horse can't
stand on his feet because they hurt him so badly. There is nothing
humane about that. What they do to the horses — If you've ever seen
a Tennessee walking horse! We didn't even allow them at the Cow
Palace for three years because one year it was so terrible, blood just
running out of those poor horses' feet. They have to take whips to
get them out of the stalls because the poor horses couldn't walk they
were so sore.

The Tennessee walking people themselves have tried to stop it
and they are stopping it and I think we have the horses again here.
I'm not sure. But they are better now and they are inspected before
they come in the ring.

Riess: I should think any real horse lover would be outraged.

Roth: But you would be surprised, you'd be surprised. I sat at the club in
Louisville this last year and I heard a woman say, "Oh, I love the
Tennessee walking horses. They are so exciting." But she probably
doesn't realize, she's never seen those feet. The feet are this long,
[gestures] How would you like to have your foot cut off? I don't know.
We couldn't deform our feet like they do with those poor horses. And
they put the salve in that burns. Oh, it's dreadful, dreadful.

Riess: What are the ways in which they are trying to reform it?

Roth: They are stopping now. That wasn't the original reason for stopping
the dope, but they don't have dope in racing so it's the same idea.
The medicine they would give a horse would make it last longer in the
five-gaited class; with a little bit -of dope maybe it would be more
brilliant.

Riess: But when the dope is used for racing the effect is that the horse isn't
fully aware and then stumbles.

55

Roth: It's not allowed in racing. Where it is very dangerous is [in]

children's classes with hunters because a hunter can be sold to a
child and the hunter be given a little something and it's quiet. But
then sometimes something goes wrong and the child can be badly hurt
and also the hunter can be lamed. Then suddenly it [could] wear off
and the hunter falls with the child. It's really the hunters that are
very hard against it, especially in the East.

Riess: Hunters and jumpers are the same thing?

Roth: Hunters and jumpers are not the same thing, no. It is the same kind of
a horse, the same breed, but not the same thing because a hunter has
to have conformation and a jumper can be not a Thoroughbred. He can be
Hackney, and they often are, or a Standardbred or an Arabian. He
can be anything. But a hunter must be a registered Thoroughbred.

Riess: "Quarter horses are the best natured breed and the only in which
stallions are commonly ridden and shown by women and children."

Roth: I would say that's not true.

Riess: But you had an extraordinary experience with the Chief. You were saying
that stallions generally —

Roth: Well, I think it's a horse show rule, or used to be, that women

weren't supposed to show stallions. But I did and I really don't know
if it's a rule now. I don't think so. No, I don't think that's true
at all, but that is their publicity and it's sold lots of [horses].

Riess: Did your neighbors in Woodside when you lived at Why Worry have stables?

Roth: The Folgers did. The Folgers had nice horses. Yes, they had horses

and a beautiful stable. The Jacklings were there and the Herbert Moffitts
and the Harrisses. The Schillings were there too. They were all early
Calif ornians.

Riess: Were any of them showing?

Roth: No. I think I was the only one showing or maybe there were others.

I've forgotten. It was lovely and people rode a lot over the weekends
on the trails. There were some wonderful riding trails. The Woodside
Trail Club is still in existence. They had good trails with gates
with which you could go through different private properties. As I
said, I used to ride from there over through the back roads through
Filoli, which was wonderful riding.

Most of the people down there were interested in horses, and they
rode a lot. On the Fourth of July we used to hitch up our coach and
go with our coach down to Menlo Park with the hornblower and everything

56

Roth: in uniform, all properly done. It was a lot of fun. We'd go down

there just for the races. They always had races on the fourth at the
Circus Club.

Riess : Does that term "circus" just mean round?

Roth: The reason it was called the Circus Club was because it started as a
club where the children came and rode, little children, I mean the
five and six-year olds. Mr. Walter, who started the group, used to
stand with a big whip like [in] the circus! The kids would go around
the ring and my children rode there. From that it went into a
country club. I worked on the Circus Club and the country club finally
took it over with the understanding one day a year the whole club
should be ours for a benefit for the Stanford Hospital for Children and
the convalescent home, and that still goes on.

Riess: So as far as clubs go, that's quite different then from the Woodside
Trail Club.

Roth: Oh, yes, the Woodside Trail Club is just memberships. You pay so

much and a little bit of money keeps up the trails and the gates and
you become members to ride on the trails and have a key to open the
gates. That's still in existence.

Riess : Horses —

Roth: I could go on for hours on the horses! [laughter] I did go from saddle
horses to Hackneys more because in the first place, I don't ride, myself,
anymore. I could drive the Hackneys, but I think that for riding
young people look nicer, and as you get older then that's time
to get off the horse in the show ring. Then I went over to driving
the Hackneys. Now, you see, I am almost completely Hackneys. I have
just one saddle horse that I'm showing here which is the first time
I have showed a saddle horse for quite a while.

Riess: Are you very enthusiastic about this one?

Roth: Yes, I am. There is one class that I still keep for saddle horses

which is fine harness. That's why I raise all of these colts, to try
and get a champion fine harness horse. But they don't always turn out.
This one I'm showing [that] I showed this year is fine harness. But I
don't think he is good enough to go on another year as fine harness,
so now he's saddle. And I happen to have a rider, which is lucky.

Riess: What is the name of this horse?

Roth: Mountain Storm.

Riess: What goes into the naming?

57

Roth: A lot of thought — and mostly lipstick! [laughs] I find that lipstick
ads are the best to find names. They always have a little pep to them,
so I look through all the magazines and find all the lipsticks that
are advertised and then try to think a name out.

Now with the Quarterbreds, they are so strong on their certain
stallion breeds, like Dakbar, you've got to get Dakbar in the name
somehow. I don't bother with the saddle. But if the judge looks
down and sees something with Dakbar in it, it looks good, because
that's top breeding and they're very strong on their breeding now,
which is good because they were lax for awhile so I think now it's
good they're strong.

Riess: Do you think that the name of the rider has the same influence on the
judges?

Roth: Yes, I think it has a great deal of influence.
Riess: Would you think that that's a- mistake?

Roth: No, it's not a mistake. I think a rider that is a top rider, the judge
may look at him more or he may look at him less because he'll figure,
well, he can canter his horse easy because he is a good rider. It
works both ways. But with the Quarter- horses, there is no doubt that
the top riders gets a little bit of recognition.

Riess: Is there importance in what order the horses come into the ring, and
how is that determined?

Roth: They all come in together excepting Quarter horses, [who] work

individually. With Quarter horses there might be a difference because
it's working with cattle. You change your cattle every say ten horses,
so the cattle at about the eighth horse that's working sometimes get
a little smart.

Riess: The other thing is they might begin to feel a little defeated.

Roth: Or a little tired running around the ring. But that's all in the draw.

Personally, I always like to be first in the ring if I have a
good horse because if you come in first you know the judge is going to
look at you because he always looks at the first horse that comes in.
Then they all come in and get all mixed up. But if you come in first
and can make a good show, it's a good place to be. So I used to always
scramble up and try to be first in the ring. Everybody is working their
horse outside and it's a question of if you're right near the gate
when they open it. You can't stand near the gate because you wouldn't
be "standing" a horse, you'd be moving your horse. So I think first
in is an advantage, though I don't know that it's that much of an
advantage, but you are seen anyway; you are seen.

58

Riess: I understand that you had a good deal of style when you were riding
and were known for hats and certain getups .

Roth: Oh, nowadays they have these tailors who make them the same as they
have for hunting and shooting and you just have to buy whatever the
style is. Sometimes it's a long coat — I've had long coats and I've
had short coats. I think the style is a long coat now. Sometimes
they're tight around the hips and sometimes they have little pleats.
About every three years they change it so the tailors can make new
suits! The same way with the field trial suits. When I was doing
field trials sometimes the pants were terribly tight and the coat was
loose or vice versa.

Riess: [laughs] That might eliminate certain people!

Roth: Yes, sure. It certainly made it hard for some of us to climb a fence
once in awhile! [laughter]

Riess: Who sets the style?

Roth: The tailors. I remember when Mrs. Tobin and I went — where did we go?
St. Louis — and the tailor was there. I said, "You better come and
watch us go through the fence and then take my pants and get them
fixed for the next time you see me!" Which he did. Oh, they were
so tight I couldn't make it. So I think suits are the same for all
those things.

Riess : Are you riding at all now?

Roth: I haven't ridden for about ten years. I would have liked to have

ridden Longview, but it was a question of help really, For me, I like
a horse ready to go. I didn't have enough time to work a horse and
keep it ready to go and that kind of service just got a little hard
to get.

Riess: You've said that that kind of help is hard to get. It reminds me of
what one might say about good gardeners these days.

Roth: It's the same idea; it's the same way with our help in the stables.
Also, they make more in a race track. If the horse wins, they get a
part of the purse, and if you have a show stable you are paying a big
salary for your man and yet you're winning nothing so you can't give
them part of the purse because there isn't enough to give. In the
Hackney classes the prizes are absolutely nothing.

Riess: The Grand National, is that a prestigious show?

59

Roth: It's very good, but it's not as good as Kansas City or Louisville,
or Houston. And it's stock and cattle too, sheep and cattle. Santa
Barbara is, I think, the best California show. This show, a lot of the
show people don't like it because they have so many kinds of horses.
They have the rodeo there. It's very western. Everybody wears cowboy
hats and big cowboy getup. My son-in-law wears his cowboy hat when he
goes.

They keep it up nicely, but for my department of show horses it
isn't the biggest show.

Riess: And what became of Loulu Combs, and her stable?

Roth: Loulu, she died. A wonderful person. She used to call me once a month
when she got older. She could certainly drive a horse.

Riess: Who were the other great women that you think of?
Roth: Mrs. Cox, Jessie Cox.
Riess: Where was she?

Roth: She came from Boston. She is connected with the Wall Street Journal.
As a matter of fact, the Cox family are the largest stockholders, I
think. She is one of my dear friends. She is younger than I am. I've
bought horses from her. One of my best harness horses came from her
and I think she is the only woman judge that's ever judged a Hackney
show in England.

Riess: That's a very high honor. You've judged, I take it.

Roth: I've judged. I have a judge's card, but I let it go. I don't see
well enough. You really have to see.

Then there was a Mrs. Moore who showed in the East who was
wonderful at riding. Mrs. Van Sindren. They were from the East.
Mrs. McCall, her son is president of one of the banks here. She was
a beautiful driver. Wonderful horses. Hackneys.

Oh, there were many, but it's an entirely new group now. My
friends have all gone. Take Jessie Cox, she doesn't ride or drive now.
It's all a new group and I find that mostly this younger group has
maybe one or two horses but they don't have the big stables like we
used to have. People now just can't keep up big stables. They can't
afford it.

Riess : What do you have at Why Worry?

Roth: I have a little group, a half-filled stable. I have a road horse, too,
a Standardbred.

60

Roth: I have driven a road horse in the ring, but unfortunately, the last

time I did it, there was a terrible accident and my husband was there.
So then he forbid me to do it. The horse ran away and a horse trotting
very fast that runs away — the girl that was driving her was one of our
best drivers, Jean Scott — the horse jumped in a box and hurt somebody
in the box and ran into two other rings. I got into the middle of the
ring because my stable people always watch me very closely, so they
jumped the fence and got me right away. I got in the middle of the
ring myself, but they helped me stand there while this other horse
was running all about. Unfortunately, my husband was there and his
sister was there and she said to Bill, "Is this what your wife does
when she goes to horse shows?" And that finished that!

Riess: When was that?

Roth: That was in Los Angeles, years ago. So I didn't get a chance. But
now the women are going in that class again.

Riess: Is there any threat to the future of the Standardbreds?

Roth: Oh, no, this is a very popular class, the road class, very popular and
the audience likes it, and why not? They trot so fast, they sometimes
fall out of the rigs, and so there is always some excitement. It is
a popular children's class and they do- it with Hackney ponies. In
Louisville I think there were twenty ponies going as fast as they
could around the ring. I don't know why they all didn't fall out.

Riess: You are practically sitting on the horse's tail.
Roth: That's it, two wheels, a jockey cart.

I read the other day that the reason the pacers are so popular is
because they can put the hobbles on them and go into the race and then
the hobbles keep the horses from breaking, whereas if they're trotting
and they get going too fast, they break and of course when a horse
breaks he loses distance.

Riess: It's so odd-looking, like a marionette.

Roth: Yes, it keeps them going this way, both feet on one side at the same
time. But if a saddle horse does that, they get the gate. The judge
wouldn't even look at them.

Riess: Right. [quoting] "The Standardbred horse's gaits are too extended
and uncomfortable for general pleasure use."

Roth: A Standardbred horse is a little more uncomfortable to ride and I'll
tell you why. What makes your trot comfortable is your hock action,
in other words, if you are properly balanced behind. But the horse
that just goes high in front leaves you behind, and you haven't as
good a trot. You look for the horse that just doesn't go in front, but
the horse that goes front and back.

60a

123 BELLA VISTA DRIVE
HILLSBOROUG H.CALIFORNIA

94010

November 15, 1982

Dear Mrs. Reiss:

I let Mr. Herman Phleger read the
original book you gave me and he thought it was
extremely well done, but thought I had left out
a very important thing. This was a case that
he was my attorney for and involved taxes on
my horses at Why Worry Farm.

Herm thought when he took me to
court that I would lose the case, but he gave
me the credit of winning it. He thought this
was quite an accomplishment so he had all of
it copied for me.

I am enclosing the copies for
the book and if you want they can be put in
loose, I leave it to your judgment.

Sincerely yours,

Mrs. William P. Roth

nm.:d' O«iu» 'try t . j.
I

l,ed that the March I. 1911. fair market value
,.f ix-litioner'H lots was from 40 to <>0 cents
iK-r square fool.

Tl.e • \idein-e of these witne«ses was un< on-
, trad i. ted. and wan not wwikeiK-d upon cross-
examination. We may not disregard it ana
rj-ort to some theory or formula suggested
h> tlie respondent. As was said by the court
Iti Talrmount Cemetery Ass'n. v. Commr., 79
K (2d) 165; 1936 C.C.H. Vol. 3 A
•.•4R2—

We think the Board attached too great
Importance to the presumption In favor of
Hie Commissioner's finding. That presump
tion Is the olivet anchor of the Government
in all doubtful cases, nnd the courts. Includ-
inp this court, have Indulged It to the limit,
but it must yield to uncontradlcted evidence,
nnd here there Is such evidence. For here
there is not only evidence of witnesses con-
trndlctory of the Commissioner's valuation,
but more persuasive still — definite facts
which show unmistakably that tlie Commis
sioner's figure on the unimproved land was
mere guesswork.

Property such as Is Involved here should
l>e valued' with respect for the purpose for
which it Is Intended and the improvements.

tlon shall be set aside In a separate fund
to be used exclusively for maintenance pur
poses, and It Is actually set aside In a sepa
rate fund and used for the purposes Intended
only, that the amounts so set aside are not
taxable Income to the cemetery company.
Woodlawn Cemetery Association, 28 B.T.A.
at page 885: Cedar Park Cemetery Ass'n. v.
Commr, 67 F. (2d) 699, IS A.F.T.R, 386:
Portland Cremation Ass'n. v. Commr., SI F.
(2d) 843, 7 A.F.TR, 8621: Evergreen Ceme
tery Ass'n., Zl B.T.A. 1194.

In the Instant case the clause quoted from
the deeds, the by-law of the petitioner, and
petitioner's actions In creating and main
taining the separate maintenance fund are
sufficient to create a trust, and the amounts
collected by petitioner and paid Into said
fund during the taxable year are not taxable
to It as Income.

Decision tcUl be entered under Rule SO.
Entered : Jan. 29, 193t.

[fl36,039].— WILLIAM C. RICE AND WIFE
(T1RZAH M. RICE), Docket No. 48070.

H. V. Blaxter, Esq., for the iwtltlonem.

James R. Johnston, Esq., for the respondent.

MEMORANDUM OPINION

wViole"under "fo'rerfoiufi. or for farming, or STERXHAGEN: The Commissioner deter-

building purposes are not convincing, we mined a deficiency of $1.088.55 in the Income

imd that the fair market value of petitioner i tax for j926 of the petitioners, who filed a

lots as of March 1. 1913. was 32.68 cents per joint return. The proceeding was submitted

square foot, which wa» the figure whlcr w|tn that of Docket No. 48071, Dennis A.

petitioner used In making out Its Income t Harris et al., Executors John P. Harris,

return for the year 1931.

upon the same stipulation of facts. It pre-

:;i(JI II liri *,••%; ^ «.»• - , i_— »-j-w.« &••*. u< ii»w *?i>|sui«.i.iwii w» lav «.O. il. (II V"

It should be pointed out that In arming gents the same Issues, namely, whether the

Hi this figure we confine ourselves to a n transactions In which the shareholders of the

Ins of the March 1. 1913, value per squat Davis Company disposed of their shares to

niut of petitioner's land used for cemetery |ne Stanley Company constituted a statutory

•>• Hc5iKindenl'« counsel In his aMe nrle reorcanizatlon, and whether there was an

>eems tu be of the mind thai we phmild llnd exchange by each shareholder of his Davis

the value per square foot of the entire 1 shares for Stanley shares and a contem-

ii. res and that It would follow that th poraneous sale by him of half his Stanley

would be the per square foot value of U shares for cash, as the petitioners contend,

rrmeiery lots. But we do not look at I or a disposition hy the Davis Company share-

ti, is way. Many square feet of the lam holders of their Davis shares In direct con-

wi-re used for roadways and walks slderatlon of Stanley shares and cash, as the

.emeterles. and for landscaping purposes and respondent contends.

tor greenhouses and other Improvements. jn trie Memorandum Opinion entered this

These Improvements were the things that day (n the HarT|B case> Docket No. 48071, we

ail Jed to the \alue of the cemetery lots and have neHl that there was a statutory reor-

ax we view It. It Is not our task to va i ganizatlon. have found as a fact that the

tin- whole tract of 180 acres and then dl\ld« J>avls shareholder engaged In two separate

this value thus found by the number of square transactions, one an exchange of each Davis

feet In the whole tract and thus arrive at t share for glx Stanley shares, and the other

value per square foot of all the land Included ft Bale of ha)f tne §tan|ey shares thus re

in the bounds of the cemetery. Our task It ce|Ved for cash at ISO a share, and upon
,.,-, ...i... .-,

III IIIV IMIUIIW "* «•*. *.»... *~..-. — -- --

lo arrive at the March 1. 1913. value per

flndlng of fact

i' i tii i i * r^ n i in*' •••«- -- --• • in IB iiiiuiiig t ' i i <i< L » e 1 1 it \ tr ii r iu i lui i ina

square foot of the lemeien Commissioner was In error In determining

q

value which we have reached, we think we
IIIIIM find from the testimony.

It Is true that we do not have to accept
Mindly the testimony of expert witnesses as
to vniue and we have not done so In this

that the shareholder received for his Davis
shares a combination consisting of Stanley
shares and cash. We make the same deci
sion here, and more specifically we find as a
fact that the petitioners, being the owners

reorganization, for 330 Stanley shares, of
which one-half, or 165 shares, were sold lo
Smith * Company for 1 13, 200 cash.

" _ .it i .i' v 1 1 ii\ i 1 1 ic }«:i 1 1 i»n 1 1 a, in'i 11^ 1 1 ic uvtiidB

proceeding. Some of the witnesses testified of B0 an(1 5 j>av|s ghares, respectively. «z-
i . a far higher value than we have found. changed them In 1926. pursuant to a plan of
V-- ha\e based our findings upon the testi
mony of witnesses who were thoroughly
familiar with the cemetery lots on March 1,
I'.'IS. and prior thereto. We think this evi
dence Is sufficient to overcome the prlma facleV^ -/i<<J0menf trHJ be entered under K«
correctness of respondent's determination^ Entered: Jan. 29, 1936.
stated In his deficiency notice and Justifies ^f
the valuation which we have reached/' \njT
reaching a March 1. 1913, value we ilo yf
feel at liberty to apply certainx1^'j>rfiit
lipures along the lines which J*sj>u«'<1<>nt
arpues In his brief. We have no" tertimony
upon which to base any arbitrary discount jr Es- mn<|
In fact our finding as to March 1. 1913. value petitioner,
lakes Into consideration all factors which
were present on that date as shown by the
testimony of witnesses. Further than that,
»e do not think we have any authority to go.
The Board and the Courts have held In a
number of cases that where lots In a cenie-

[V36.040].— LURLINE B. ROTH, Docket
Nos. 63535, 71037 and 7469S.

Herman Phleger, Esq.. James S. Moore,
P. Robln«on. C.P.A.. for the

j. L. Backstrom. Esq.. for the respondent.
MEMORANDUM OPINION

MORRIS: The petitioner contests defi
ciencies In Income tax of $16,172.11. $16.-

"V

A

!• i are sold under an agreement with the /032.52 and $13,234.24 for the taxable years
pnnuasers that a portion of the conslriera- ' 1929. mo and 1!>3I, r.-^pectlM •'>-. ulleglng

1

I

v*. — 3b

burl ne B. Koth

error In the failure to permit the deduction
of $42,38!). 59, t43.021.C9 and $66,171.17 an
lussw« sustained In said respectl\e years In
the o|>eratlon of the Why-Worry Farm as a
business enterprise.

The petitioner Is an Individual with resi
dence In San Francisco, also Woodside, San
Maleo County, California, where she main
tains and operates Why-Worry Farm for
the breeding of saddle homes. She has been
Intimately associated with the breeding, care,
tralninK, allowing at horse shows and fairs,
and the purchase and sale of horses since
childhood, her father before her having bred
standard horses. She has visited all Im
portant horse shows and fairs and places
where horses are bred and sold— especially
In Kentucky and Missouri — throughout the
t'nlted States. She was the first exhibitor
of horses at the California State Fair. She
lifean with a few saddle horses some twenty-
nve years ago. Shortly before her marriage
f-he acquired a few show and pleasure horses
by gift from her mother. Her mother pur
chased a small show stable for her In 1!»22
which she showed for several years. In
1^25 the petitioner selected, and her mother
purchased for her. the world's champion
show horse, a stallion. Chief of Longview,
at a cost of $25.000. In or about 1927, at
which time the demand for show and pleasure
Imrses was great and after she had bred
a couple of colls by this stallion. Chief of
Longvlew, she realized the possibilities of a
breeding farm In California. At that time,
as now, there were no substantial Interests
of that character, that Is, for the breeding
and rale of saddle horses. In California, and
notwithstanding a great local Interest It was
necessary to Import such horses from Ken
tucky, Missouri or Tennessee.

She visited various farms In the east re
specting possibilities of conducting a breed-
Ing fr.rm, familiarized herself with their
slock, their breeding methods, stud fees, cost
ot mail':, and colls, and having done BO,
concluded that such an enterprise would be
profitable. At or about this time she pur
chased seven brood mares. She arranged
for suitable quarters on the farm, built a
stable and began the breeding business, for
profit. In 1929 at Why -Worry Farm with
seven colts, eleven brood mares, and eighteen
stallions and show horses. She was so en
gaged throughout the taxable years. Fifty
colts were born during the years 1929 to
1933, both Inclusive, and twenty-four were
sold during that period, leaving a total num
ber of colts on hand at the end of 1933 of
33, together with 16 brood mares and 26
stallions and show horses. The petitioner
derived gross Income from show prizes, board
of horses, stud fees, sale of horses and colts,
and miscellaneous revenues of $31,383.17,
(H. 025.12 and $25,934.23, and Incurred gross
exi>enses of $73,772.76. fg3.04G.81 and $91.-
705.40. resulting In net losses of $42.389.59,
$39.021.69 and $67.271.17 — the latter figure
Including an adjustment of $1.500 occasioned
by the loss of stock — for each of the re
spective taxable years 1929, 1130 and
1931

The Inventory values of brood mares, stal
lions, and show horses, computed upon the
basis of appraised values In the care of
hnrses on hand at January 1, 1929 which, in
each case, are less than cost, and upon the
basis of actual cost where acquired subse
quently to January 1. 1929, Including no
value whatsoever for colts, the Income from
which Is rp|K>rted In Its entirety upon sale,
were $81 800, $103,350, and $I36.!>00 on Janu
ary 1, 1929, December 31, 1929 and December
Si! 1930. respectively.

The books of account of the petitioner
were very poorly kept prior to 1929. In
the beginning of 1929, when she embarked
upon her new venture, a complete modern
set of double entry books was opened and
has since been maintained by an experienced
bookkeeper.

Petitioner emplo>ed from thirteen to seven

teen people In her business between 1929 and
1931, including a manager whom she em
ployed at the outset of this venture. She
spends over six months of each year at her
Woodside residence and when residing In San
Francisco she visits her farm twice weekly,
actively conducting the affairs of her breed-
Ing farm. She determines the purchase and
sale prices of all horses, selects all employees,
approves all hills before payment by" her
bookkeeper, decides which shows should be
attended annually and what horses should be
bred.

The respondent held, In each of the tax
able years, that the operation of her breeding
farm was a "hobby"; that it was not a
business entered Into for profit and, there
fore, he disallowed the losses resulting there
from.

Upon the record we disagree with the re-
•pondent There Is ample evidence of an
Intention upon the part of the petitioner to
engage In the business of the breeding of
horses In 1929 and that she was so engaged
during the taxable years In controversy.

We are confident that the hobby element,
which admittedly existed prior to 1929, be-
fS™,6 «"tlrel>' secondary after January l.
1929 when the petitioner, after thorough
Investigation, coupled with her years of ex
perience In the handling of horses, decided
to capitalize upon her broad experience an>l
to embark upon what she had hoped and
expected would be a profitable enterprise. l.e.,
the breeding of horses. Aside from the
unequivocal testimony of the petitioner her
self that she Intended to enter into the
breeding of horses for profit In 1929 and
the fact that she was so engaged, we have
the fact that she made a thorough Investi
gation of all phases of the business, visited
various farms In the east, familiarizing her
self with their stock, their breeding methods,
stud fee*, cost of mare' and rolls, that she
arranged for suitable quarters on the farm,
built a stable, purchased brood mares and
actually embarked upon the breeding of
horses to the extent that fifty colts were
born during the years 1929 to 1933. Some
point Is made of the fact that the petitioner
actually Incurred heavy losses ; that because /
she Is a woman of great wealth and because
she continued to operate under such cir
cumstances Indicated that she had no expec
tation of profit. The record does not disclose
that the petitioner was a woman of great
wealth, although she may very well have
been. She testified most emphatically that
she would not have gone Into the business
had she not anticipated profits therefrom.
She said that she did not expect profits In
the beginning by reason of the fact that the
brood mares had to mature before they could
breed and that colts had to be bred before
the business could hope to be profitable.
How profitable the business may have been
had It not begun at the outset of a world
wide depression, we leave to conjecture, but
the fact that the business was markedly un
profitable Is readily understood. There Is
also some point made that the petitioner
continued to show horses after 1929 as she
had theretofore. The petitioner explained
that It was necessary as an advertising
medium to attend these shows, even at great
expense. The respondent erred In holding
that the petitioner was not engaged In the
breeding of horses as a business. Margaret
E. Amory. 21 B.T.A. 139S : George D. \Vld-
ener, 8 B.T.A. 6R1. affirmed at 3* Fed. (2)
S33: Marshall Field, 26 B.T.A. 116, affirmed 9>
67 Fed. (2) 876. o

The petitioner concedes that the net Income D*
as found by* the respondent should be In
creased by $2,900 because of an understate
ment of Income for the taxable year I9>0
of $4,000 and an overstatement In 1931 of
II. inn. The claimed losses shall be adjusted
accordingly.

/ Judgment will be mtertd toider Knit tt
(Entered Jan. lo. 1936.

61

IV AN INTERVIEW ON MATSON HISTORY, WITH KARL KORTUM* PRESENT
[Interview 4: November 13, 1980 ]##

Kortum: Is the microphone close enough? I always like to be close to the
subject, close to the person with the wisdom!

Riess: Good, then we'll get all the cream and sugar out of the way and just
make it as close and audible as possible.

Kortum: Captain Matson has always been a hero of mine because he was a sailor,
for one thing, but in particular because he rose to command, and his
personality and abilities became evident on the scow schooners on San
Francisco Bay, a vanished class of ship — except for the Alma which we
can see out of the windows here. Also, we have the stern of one scow
schooner, the Charles W. , in the museum.

So I have always been intensely interested in the William
Frederick and the Mission Canal, Captain Matson's first two vessels
on the Bay.

Roth: They're before my time!

Kortum: I'm well aware of that, but in the interview that you gave a long time
ago with Erna Fergusson for a book called Our Hawaii, you mentioned
something about Captain Rock being an associate of your father's,
and when I read that, you said that Captain Matson went to work for
Captain Rock on the William Frederick — Rock was the owner — and inside
of two years Captain Matson was the owner. Which is about the way
things went in the scow schooners.**

It's always bothered us that we have never been able to find a
photograph of the William Frederick or the Mission Canal. What do
you know about Captain Rock apart from that?

*Karl Kortum, Chief Curator, National Maritime Museum, San Francisco.
Interview took place at Ghirardelli Square Offices.

**0ur Hawaii, by Erna Fergusson, Knopf, New York 1942. Excerpt appended.

62

Roth: I just know that he was with my father and Captain Rock is one of

the ones where my father parked all his horses. I already said that
my father bought horses when he shouldn't have been buying horses and
so he had to park them around with these different captains and
Captain Rock was one of the ones who had the largest group of horses.

Kortum: Was that at Rock's home here?

Roth: I believe Rock lived in Alameda.

Riess: Was he another Swedish captain?

Roth: Oh, he must have been. Oh, yes, he was Swedish I'm sure.

Riess: Do you say "must have been" because that is what ninety-nine percent
of them were?

Roth: They were mostly Swedish.

Kortum: Three-quarters of our seafaring men were Scandinavian and the pattern
which Captain Matson followed was characteristic. They came around
Cape Horn in a British ship, probably having in mind jumping the ship
when they got here, and going to work under better conditions. That
is, in our coastal vessels or on the vessels on the Bay, which were
numerous, the scow schooners.

Do you remember Captain Rock yourself?

Roth: Yes, I remember him. I know what he looked like, but I have no
pictures of him.

Kortum: What did he look like?

Roth: He was sort of roundish in his face and he had a twinkle in his eye,
I remember that. That's about all I remember. I remember his driving
the horses — I think he died quite a number of years ago.

Kortum: [aside] We have a little piece from the Tacoma newspaper about him,

a few paragraphs, which can be dropped into the story, and you can get
that from us.*

Roth: There was a Captain Matson also.
Kortum: Charles Matson?
Roth: Yes, the same name.

*Appended

63

Kortum: He was skipper of the Falls of Clyde to name just one vessel. What
kind of man was Charles Matson? What did he look like?

Roth: Oh, he was different. As I remember, he had a beard. I think so.
He was different from Rock. He was quiet.

Kortum: Was he the master when you made your voyage in the Falls of Clyde
when you were sailing down to Hilo that time?

Roth: He must have been. Yes, I think that was the time we made the record
sail in nine days and three hours and something!

Kortum: Nine days and three hours?

Roth: I think it was.

Riess: Your father admired this other Captain Matson?

Roth: He was very fond of his captains. I think they had all been his

friends when he was younger and they probably all worked together.

Kortum: I think that was very much the case from everything I've heard.

Roth: They were really friends of his. It wasn't like employing somebody
he didn't know.

Kortum: They had worked their way up on the coast.

Roth: — Because he was interested in their families and he was good to them
always .

Kortum: Peter Johnson?

Roth: Peter Johnson, he was different. He was different.

Kortum: In what way was he different?

Roth: He liked his little drink.

Kortum: Well, that wasn't too different from a lot of them!

Roth: Oh, yes, but he liked it a little more than most of them. He had a
wonderful sense of humor. I remember being late to make the ship in
Hilo one time and they held the ship one hour and I didn't realize
that on account of the tide, if I had been a half hour later, the ship
wouldn't have gotten out. So when I came down in my Locomobile car,
I went right on board in the car, never got out of the car. I was
scared to death of Captain Johnson!

64

Roth: I had no sooner got to my room when he sent for me and I went up with
my knees shaking and he said, "Do you realize the ship couldn't
have gone out tonight if you hadn't arrived? You shouldn't have
done this!" I hadn't realized it. "Well," he said, "Did you have
a good time?" "Oh," I said, "I had a wonderful time." He said,
"Then I won't tell anyone." [laughter] Which meant he wouldn't tell
Mr. Tenney.

Kortum: You were just an hour late and almost spoiled the sailing?
Roth: I almost spoiled the sailing (which I didn't know).
Kortum: That would have been on a steamer.

Roth: Yes, it was one of the steamers because the car was hoisted aboard

and I didn't get out. You're supposed to get out; you're not allowed
to be lifted by the ship's boom. But I was scared to walk up the
gangplank. I knew Captain Johnson was watching right up there.

Kortum: What did he look like?

Roth: Oh, he had sort of a narrow face and a prominent nose [laughs] —
sometimes on the pink side! He was a great man though.

t

Kortum: Yes, he was a great favorite of your father's, I know, and survived

out of the age of sail to take the ocean liners when liners came to be
built.

Riess: In the Matson Navigation Company history that is being written, the

author seems to set up a difference of opinion often between Captain
Matson and Captain Johnson.*

Kortum: Well, seamen are like that. They can argue —

Roth: Captain Johnson was a little harder to keep in line than some of the
other captains.

Kortum: Oh, was he? He wrote a memoir. He is the only one of the bunch that
wrote a memoir. It's good to have.

Riess: That trip back from Hilo where you barely made the boat, you were on
that one by yourself, without your mother?

Roth: I was with friends. I was married then.

*Cargoes : Matson's First Century in the Pacific, by William L. Worden,
University of Hawaii Press, 1981.

Lurline Berenice Matson

Voyage to Hawaii

Captain William Matson

*._... , _ -

Christening the "Lurline"

65

Riess: And he was still taking you to task?

Roth: Oh, yes! He practically grew up in the family, so I was just another
girl as far as he was concerned.

Kortum: I have noticed that captains at the time of the departure of a ship —
getting all the pieces together and everybody together, and all the
cargo on board, and all the fuel on board and all the stores and so
on — it preys on a captain's mind. They become obsessed with sailing.

Roth: He was a real captain and ran a beautiful ship.

Kortum: You have mentioned before the story about creating the Matson flag,
which is a very good story.

Roth: It must have been on the Falls of Clyde.

Kortum: We have a record of a Falls of Clyde voyage which may have been that
one which I can supply you with to drop into the story.*

Roth: It was when the company was first formed and we had no house flag and
my mother made it going down out of bits of flags that we had to sew
together. She made the big M and the stars.

Kortum: The seven stars surrounding the M have traditionally been said to be
the seven ships that Captain Matson first owned. So I've always been
very interested in the story of the creation of the house flag on a
voyage on a sailing ship down to Honolulu by the owner's wife!

Riess: Yes, was she piecing it out and figuring out the design right then
and there?

Roth: Yes, we made it going down.

Kortum: Your father was along on that voyage.

Roth: He probably decided what he wanted and we worked it out.

Kortum: A family project.

Roth: It was a family project.

Kortum: Didn't you tell me there were some other ladies on board who did
some sewing, too?

Roth: Yes, they were some friends of my mother's called Zabriskie. They
were on board.

*Appended

66

Riess: So they had a hand in the flag sewing?

Roth: Oh, yes. I think everybody had to help because you have to make the
stars and the tl.

Riess: Where is that flag?

Roth: It's on all the ships.

Riess: I mean the original one.

Kortum: It may not have been saved.

Roth: I doubt it. I think it's probably in tatters by now! This may have
been on the Roderick Dhu. Could it be? I don't know.

Kortum: Speaking of the Roderick Dhu, Captain Rock had her for quite awhile
and was very proud of her. Do you have any particular memories of
that vessel?

Roth: Oh, yes, I have lots of them because we went many times on the Roderick
Dhu. She was one of the biggest ships, carried the most mules.

Kortum: Yes, there was a big importation of mules from this coast on these
sailing ships to Honolulu.

Riess: Mrs. Roth has painted a very unattractive picture of sailing with
mules.

Roth: With the mule's head in the window!

Riess: — Drooling!

Kortum: Oh, I remember you telling me that.

Roth: Oh, it would make me so seasick.

Kortum: Were you in your cabin?

Roth: Yes, because we always had the front cabin which was supposed to be
the best. But the good "mule" breezes came right in. [laughter]

Kortum: A mule would actually stick his nose through the porthole?

Roth: Yes, sure.

Kortum: It wouldn't be a square window; it would be a porthole.

Ro th : Yes .

67

Kortum: Sticks his snout through! [more laughter] That could be unattractive.
On the manifests there were always mules and cattle traveling down.

Roth: Horses, lots of horses.

Riess: I've been interested in the names of some of these ships. Do the
ships carry a name forever?

Kortum: Well, it's changed frequently but the Roderick Dhu is a very distinguish^
iron clipper from the Waver ly Line — Williamson, Milligan and Co. I
think they were a Glasgow firm, and the vessels all drew their names
from the Waver ly novels of Sir Walter Scott. They had names like
Kenil worth and Red Gauntlet, Roderick Dhu.*

The Falls Line was another Glasgow line of sailing ships. They
had nine sailing vessels , the Falls of Clyde, Falls of Afton, the
Falls of Dee, the Falls of Halladale — in other words, the waterfalls
of Scotland.

Roth: Nice names.

Kortum: Nice names. The Falls of Clyde is a lovely name, but so is Roderick
Dhu, a figure in The Lady of the Lake.

Mrs. Roth, did you make many voyages down?

Roth: We always did two a year, anyway, or three — two or three a year.
Riess: It was generally, I gather, smooth sailing down and a struggle back?
Kortum: It's a little longer coming back.
Roth: Anytime you leave San Francisco, it is not smooth sailing.

Kortum: That's true, but you made a little quicker trip going down than
coming back.

Roth: Oh, yes, going down the winds are more favorable as a rule.

Riess: Were there really bad crossings that you remember, any alarming ones?

Roth: One was very alarming because we were carrying dynamite.

*Also Knight of Snowden, Talisman, Marmion, Lord of the Isles, Ivanhoe,
Cedric the Saxon, Lammermoor. The Lamnermoor was wrecked in Bodega
Bay in the early 1880s. KK

68

Riess: Was that unusual cargo?

Roth: Yes. I have an idea it was against the law.

Kortum: It's not supposed to be carried in passenger ships.

Roth: That's it and there were six passengers, I suppose. We had the most
dreadful storm and my father moved that dynamite all night long, I
remember.

Kortum: He actually moved it?

Roth: He moved it all night long from side to side and he was really nervous,
He had his family on board. He was really upset. It's the only time
I've ever seen him alarmed.

Kortum: The dynamite was probably getting adrift.

Roth: Getting adrift and he was trying to secure it.

Riess: How many of you were privy to this?

Roth: Oh, he didn't tell anyone.

Kortum: Really?

Roth: [laughs] No, not until the next morning when the storm was over.

But he was up all night and he was not the captain. He was not the
captain, but he had it on board and he knew he shouldn't have had
it on board.

Kortum: But the seaman in him came out and he went down in the hold.
Roth: Yes, he really worked that night.

Riess: Of course, he could have jettisoned it. That might have been a good
idea.

Roth: No, you couldn't. In a sailing ship you're rolling. It would be
worse. It would blow the ship up when it bounced back and hit the
ship.

Kortum: Yes, putting it overboard would be difficult.
Roth: You couldn't get rid of it if you tried.

Riess: That's a pretty good story. What other contraband cargo can you tell
us about?

Roth: That's the only thing I ever heard of.

69

Kortum: I don't know the regulations, but I know that in a passenger-carrying
steamer, you are not supposed to be carrying dynamite. So this was
a passenger-carrying sailing ship and thus slipped by.

Roth: I think there were probably only six passengers. It was one of the
older ships.

Kortum: It could have been the Falls of Clyde or the Roderick Dhu.
Roth: Yes, it could have been one of those.
Kortum: Did you make any voyages in the Santiago?

Roth: Oh, I'm sure I must have been on all of the ships. I recall mostly
the Falls of Clyde and the Roderick Dhu. We went on the bigger ones,
my mother was such a poor sailor.

Kortum: How did she like all of these numerous voyages every year?
Roth: She didn't like them much; she hated them.
Kortum: Did she get seasick?

Roth: Yes, terribly, but my father knew how to take care of you when you
were seasick.

Riess: What was that? I'd like to know.

Roth: Well, in those days they didn't have pills. You got a hot compress
on your stomach.

Kortum: And it worked? I never heard that.

Roth: A hot compress; it was generally his underwear, his good Jaeger

underwear which was very expensive. He would tear it up and make
a compress and put it on mother's stomach.

Kortum: Jaeger, that's woolen.

Roth: It was old-fashioned but it was good.

Riess: How about the old tried and true tea and dry crackers?

Roth: Dry crackers and a chicken sandwich is the best really. A nice
chicken sandwich works the best. No liquids, no tea.

Kortum: Basically his cure was an external one.

Roth: Yes, mostly — and expensive. His good Jaeger underwear!

70

Kortum: Woolen underwear is precious to a seaman.

Do you recall then voyages on the Enterprise, the steamer, as
distinct from the sailing ships?

Roth: Yes, the Enterprise, I remember the first trip sailing out here
and we were just beyond Treasure Island when the engine stopped.

Kortum: She was an old steamer.

Roth: But she was the first one that ever went out with oil (oil fuel
instead of coal). That was the first trip and really, my father
was pretty nervous. It was some little thing that was quickly fixed.

Riess: It didn't make him turn around and come back and figure out what had
gone wrong?

Roth: Oh, no I don't think he wanted to turn around.

Kortum: The whole eyes of the waterfront would be on an experiment like that.

Roth: It was the first trip and I think the Roderick Dhu was the first ship
that went out with cold storage and electricity. She was the first
ship with electricity and the first ship with cold storage on the
West Coast.

Riess: Then would you have been taking any kind of bulk in that cold storage
that you would be delivering to the Islands?

Roth: I don't know what he took down.

Kortum: I don't know whether that was an ice box for the food. I suspect that
was the case. And electric lights to make the passengers' life a
little better, easier. These were sailing ships carrying passengers.

The thought of making a sailing ship voyage had a kind of cachet
to it and people would come to San Francisco to make this kind of
voyage down to the Islands. That was an experience — even though
steamers were running and provided a much more prosaic trip.

Roth: For entertainment you played shuf f leboard.

Kortum: On the sailing ships, too? Somebody laid out the markings on the deck?

Roth: The boy laid them out.

Riess: How far back do you know of this tradition of shuffleboard on ships?

71

Kortum:

Roth:

Kortum:

Roth:

Kortum:

I don't know. I can't answer that, but it's a good shipboard game.
I've not heard of it on sailing ships before, but it makes sense.

Roth:
Kortum:

Roth:
Kortum:

Roth:
Riess:

Kortum:

Roth:

Kortum:

Yes, we played on sailing ships,
but the pictures are so dim.

In fact, I have pictures of it,

We'd like the chance to make a copy of them. We know how to copy dim
pictures. That would be very interesting because as I say I have
never heard of it before on a sailing ship.

Yes, and we wore veils around our hair. We were right out on the
deck of the ship, not like a steamer where you are protected by
side glass. So it was always windy.

I've looked at the book you mentioned, the Matson history, from the
standpoint of sailing ship history basically and I thought they
treated the scow schooners, which I have such an interest in, very
badly, and called them barges. They weren't barges!

Oh, they're not barges? I've always called them barges.
I said: "My father ran a barge up the San Francisco — "

That's what

No, they're a sailing ship — a schooner — a two-masted sailing ship.
The barge confusion comes from the fact they had a square bow and a
square stern.

That's right, because a barge is towed, isn't it?

A barge is towed. But these had a square front end and so somebody
might call them a barge, but they weren't faintly a barge. They
were sailing ships. Not only that, but many of them were very smart
vessels, well built and good looking and well kept up. When they
had races on the Bay on the Fourth of July, they would beat the
yachts, some of them. They were fast. So they are a very interesting
class of vessel.

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.

Do they have their origin on this coast?

Scow-hulled vessels appear here and there throughout the world.

I think they probably have them in Holland.

They have them on the East Coast in some places and they have them
in New Zealand. But they had their most intensive development here
on San Francisco Bay starting in the Gold Rush. There were some four
hundred of them built here.

72

Riess: You were saying before, Mr. Kortum, that there was great cachet in
taking a sailing voyage to Hawaii, but not on a steamer?

Kortum: Well, there were steamers running down there other than Matson

steamers if I remember rightly in that first decade of this country.
The Matson Enterprise. And other Matson steamers got into the trade.
But the sailing ship trade had a certain style — people heard about it
and it was nice to take a trip on a sailing ship.

Roth: Like you make a cruise.

Kortum: Yes, like you make a cruise now. It was different; a pleasant life.

Riess: What did the various companies do to entertain people, to make one
more attractive than the other.

Roth: You did your own entertainment and you had a show at the last captain's
dinner, but it was all gotten up amongst the group. You always found
a lot of talent. So there was always something. But as far as music,
if you wanted to dance, maybe one of the crew could play an accordian
or fiddle.

Riess: I should think very early there would be some kind of competition
among the ships .

Kortum: No, this was a very minor aspect of the whole thing.
Riess: Was it a profitable aspect of the whole thing?

Kortum: I guess it helped. The ships were basically moving cargo and bringing
sugar back and taking mules down and so on and much other cargo. This
added a little.

Roth: I don't think they made money on the passengers.

Riess: Not enough money to motivate them to beef the whole thing up.

Roth: No, not to send an entertainer like they do now, because there weren't
enough passengers.

Kortum: The capacity of the ship was small for passengers — six or eight or
a dozen maybe at the most.

Roth: With twelve people, you don't make money.

Kortum: When you worked up a little entertainment at the end of one of these
sailing ship voyages, that was in the cabin after dinner?

73

Roth: Oh, yes, in the main cabin after dinner. Our cabins weren't very big.
Somebody might play the piano, sing a song, dance —

Kortum: Give a recitation, a poem or something?

Roth: That's it.

-
Riess: A piano was —

Roth: Yes, they always had a piano. I think every ship had a piano.

Kortum: The cabin would be much like the one on Balclutha. Even though that's
a small cabin, she had a piano.

Did the captain play, as he does on a larger scale in steamers,
the host at dinner?

Roth: Oh, yes, there was a little bit of that.

Kortum: Those captains couldn't have been just dour old windjammer men. They
must have had personality.

Roth: They did, they all had personality.

Riess: They must not have had just any old cook then if they were really
taking passengers.

Roth: They always had pretty good meals — plain. Not like you have now, a
choice of three entrees. If you had hash, you had hash, and if you
had steak, you had steak. There weren't many choices, but it was
good.

Riess: Was it like an English ship with bouillon and tea inbetween the three
main [meals]?

Roth: Oh, yes, you had bouillon at 11:00. That even started way back, and
they still carry that on on the cruise ships. They serve bouillon.
It's the best part of the morning.

Kortum: Do you recall any other aspects about the food, [like] running short
going down there on a long voyage?

Roth: You see, when we went on the sailing ships I was really a little girl
and so I didn't care so much about the food.

Kortum: Can you cast any light on that story about that shipwreck? I forget
the name of the vessel — Serena or something like that.

Roth: The Lurline?

74

Kortum: No, this was in the interview you made about twenty years ago by this
Erna Fergusson [and] published in the book Our Hawaii. There was a
shipwreck in Hilo in the harbor and Captain Matson is in command
and everybody is saved and that's where he met Miss Low.

Roth: Yes, that was on the Lurline.

Riess: Yes, that was the Lurline , Mr. Kortum.*

Kortum: No, no, because the Lurline survived until 1915.

Roth: Oh, but she only just went on the rock for a little while. She wasn't
really wrecked. It was off of Lapihoihoi. Lapihoihoi is a very
rough spot and I think there's a rock that sticks out and she hit the
rock, but the ship was not wrecked. They got her off with a tug and
he got my mother off first, because that was the trip that he met my
mother and fell in love with her. Mother was on her way to the
Hakilau plantation to teach school.

Kortum: That should be easy to confirm by an historian. There must be a
newspaper account of it.

Roth: Oh, I'm sure. I have a painting, a beautiful painting.
Kortum: Of what?

Roth: Of the Lurline on the rock, a little one done by that famous painter.
I don't know who to give that too — would that be good for your
museum?

Kortum: That's our meat.
Roth: Is that your meat?
Kortum: Yes, very much so.

Roth: I have it in Hawaii and it's done by — Coulter? No, it would be
before Coulter.

Kortum: There was Joseph Lee.

Roth: Tavernier, I think. Anyway, it's done by one of the good painters

and I have it in Hawaii and I think I better bring it up and give it
to you.

Kortum: We would much appreciate that.
Roth: It shows her on the rocks.
Kortum: In this fix.

*See discussion, pp. 8, 10.

75

Roth: And it's the Lurline.

Kortum: Your father probably had it painted because the romance started there.

Roth: His romance started there because after I was born he never went to
sea. But when he was first married he did go to sea for a couple of
months, I think; maybe six months.

Riess: You've said that before. Why didn't he go to sea?
Kortum: He was becoming an owner.

Roth: Because he became an owner. He couldn't be a sea captain and own
several ships. You see, by then they were increasing.

Kortum: He had to run the company, line up cargoes — If he is ambitious and
wants to turn into an owner, he has got to stay ashore and look after
his fleet and find captains and organize the whole thing.

Roth: Because his venture of buying his first steamer, the Enterprise, was
quite a thing for him. He was really proud when she came sailing in.

Kortum: Another problem with that book I've mentioned in one of my notes to
those people down there* — the American merchant marine was just dead
at that time, dead. There was an enterprising group on the East
Coast who were old-time sailing ship operators, the Dearborns and
Laphams . They got the American-Hawaiian line started and built new
steamers. They had the concept of going around South America, not
around the Horn, but through the Straits of Magellan, with a regular
scheduled steamer service. It was a very bold enterprise. But back
there they were old established people in the shipping game. Anyway,
that was the major —

Roth: And old families —

Kortum: Old families, and theirs was virtually — with the exception of Captain
Matson's effort out here — was virtually the American merchant marine.
At least, in steam. So for William Matson, starting as a sailor, to
get a fleet of steamers going in the first decade of this century
was quite a piece of work. It took courage and he must have had a
remarkably persuasive personality to —

Roth: They say when he went back to buy the Enterprise at auction that it
went much higher than he expected and much higher than he was
authorized to spend the money for. But he bought it anyway and he

*Refers to Mr. Perry at Alexander & Baldwin Co. in Hawaii,

76

Roth: said he looked so determined [laughs] that they decided it was no use
bidding against him any longer! So he got his Enterprise! I know he
was just terribly proud when she came into the Bay. She had been
fixed up because she was an old ship. I don't know that the Enterprise
was old, but she had been wrecked and had to be all redone.

Kortum: It was at least fifteen years old, I think.

But that was his first steamer and within a few years I think he

had the Hyades built and the ones at Newport News. But that effort

on this coast for a man — as I say, starting as a sailor — and able to
attract that capital to build a line of steamers —

Roth: It took a lot of doing.
Kortum: And this book doesn't say that.
Roth: It doesn't?-

Kortum: It doesn't say that and it should. It should comment on the state of
the American merchant marine — that the only ray of hope on the East
Coast was the American-Hawaiian, and the fact that Captain Matson had
an equivalent thing going out here with much fewer resources. The
investment money- out here was not as it was back east. So it was
remarkable.

Riess: Did he have connections with the East Coast?

Kortum: Oh, I'm sure he kept all sorts —

Roth: My father was friendly. He made friends, he made good friends.

Riess: Investors on the East Coast?

Roth: Oh, no investment on the East Coast. The investors were all out
here.

Kortum: But he had a strong connection with the Newport News Shipbuilding

and Dry Dock Company who built very fine ships for him. They were a
first class American yard and continued to be for many, many years.

Riess: Your son is writing a book about what?
#1

Roth:

[continued from a conversation off-tape about William Matson Roth]

I have no idea. I haven't the faintest idea! I think he has changed
his mind several times and that's why there is no book.

77

Kortum: I think he should do better than I do; he should get on with it.
Roth: He writes every day on his book but it will never be finished.

Kortum: He writes beautifully. I have read some of the pieces he has written
on building too many highrises in San Francisco and, oh, he can really
handle the language.

Kortum: I wanted to ask about your home. Where did you live when the earth
quake struck? You were in the city.

Roth: [At] 1918 Jackson which is where the Swedish embassy is now.

Kortum: You were living there in that brick house —

Roth: No, it wasn't brick. It was a white wooden house.

Kortum: A white Victorian, I suppose.

Roth: Yes, it was.

Kortum: So that's the one in this Fergusson piece where the whole experience
of the earthquake hits you — and that didn't burn.

Roth: That didn't burn, but it came to Franklin.
Kortum: Yes, it came awfully close.

Roth: So we had the warning and my father came in that night on one of the
ships from Honolulu. It was anchored in the Bay. I've forgotten
which; one of the Spreckels ships was anchored in the Bay the second
day or the night of the fire, I guess. He hired an old man, a colored
fellow, with a white horse and found his family.

Kortum: Where did he find his family?

Roth: We were at the riding school sleeping in the sandlot with the fleas,
[laughter]

Kortum: Where was the riding school?

Roth: Near the park, the St. Francis Riding School. It's still there, the
same old place.

Mother had to get our horses out of Kelly's Stable which burned
down and we were the last to get the horses out from upstairs. Our
horses were upstairs.

78

Kortum: Where was Kelly's Stable?

Roth: On either Pine or Bush, one of those streets between Van Ness and
Franklin. That was the private stable where everybody kept their
horses. I had two saddle horses there and we had a pair of horses.
I remember Mr. Kelly saying to Mother, "Mrs. Matson, I'm getting things
out to take care of the wounded and I just can't take care of you at
all." So Mother got her own horses out. She got somebody to help her
and we tied the two saddle horses in the back. We had a two-seated
rig and we tied the two saddle horses behind and drove up to Alta
Plaza where we had pitched a tent, I think the first tent out in the
city. The reason for the tent is that my grandfather was ill with
heart trouble and had a trained nurse and we had to get him some
place.

Riess: Did you already have the tent?

Roth: We had the tent in the house. Everybody had a tent in those days, to
go camping; camping was the thing, so you had a tent. So we had the
first tent up so we could put Grandpa and the nurse in it. Then we
stayed there until the fire became so close we couldn't contain the
horses anymore. So then we had to go somewhere, so we went to the
riding school. Mother drove and I hung on to the two riding horses
and my grandfather kept saying, "This is nothing compared with the
earthquake of '68." [laughter] "You should have been here for that!"

Kortum: He was in the rig?

Roth: Yes, he and the trained nurse, and that was one time Mother didn't
want advice. It was pretty tough driving a spirited pair of horses
and me hanging on to two more in back.

Then the army took the two saddle horses and I never saw them for
four months afterwards.

Riess: They conscripted them?

Roth: Yes, after we got out to the riding school they took them almost
immediately.

Kortum: But you had quite a bit of scrambling to do to get from Jackson
Street to the stables.

Roth: Yes, we walked, I guess.

Kortum: That's four or five blocks, isn't it, at least?

Roth: I don't know what side street the stables were on. It must have been
Bush or Pine, one of those.

79

Riess: Were you carrying valuables?

Roth: Nothing, nothing. My father arrived. He had been to the house. He
said, "You left the front door open and you never took a thing out of
the house. You left your jewelry, you left everything."

Riess: But he must have appreciated your instinct for getting to the horses!

Roth: No, I don't think he appreciated it at all. I think he thought we
were crazy. [laughter] Well, he had been on the ship. He hadn't
felt the earthquake.

Kortum: But your first move was to move your grandfather up to Alta Plaza.
Roth: Yes, we got him out of the house.
Kortum: Before you went to the stable?

Roth: Yes, oh, yes. We didn't go to the stable until after lunch when it
looked like the fire was going to burn across Van Ness.

In those days the people from Hawaii stayed at — what was that
hotel? Not the Palace, the biggest one, but a smaller hotel . . .
Well, they all came and stayed at our house. We had about twelve
people living in our house.

Kortum: When you went back?

Roth: They moved into our house because it was an old-fashioned house and
had big water tanks in the attic, and right after the earthquake
Mother went up and turned off the valve. So we had two tremendous
water tanks. Water was short and all the people who were from
Honolulu who had to move out of their hotel, moved into our house.

Kortum: Who would be some of those people, or don't you recall?
Roth: I've forgotten.

Kortum: Is what subsequently happened that that house was torn down and
the brick house was built?

Roth: No, the brick house was built after my father died. One house was
built. There were two houses and one house was built first. Then
it was too big for my mother. So she gave the big house to me and
she built another house next door by the same architect.

Kortum: It looks like one house, it does indeed. That is the site of the
previous wooden house?

80

Roth: Yes, the site, but it's the site of two wooden houses; first, our
original house, and then my father didn't want them to put an
apartment next to him, so he bought the house next door and he also
bought the house on the corner to be sure! [chuckles] So we had
two empty houses next to us.

Kortum: The building of the brick house, was that your father's concept to
build it?

Roth: No, that was built after he died because he had bought that house
without even asking my mother. It couldn't have been a more
inconvenient, big house. It was big and very inconvenient to live
in and Mother never liked it. But he never asked her. He just said
she had wanted a new house and he thought it was a nice house, so he
bought it.

Riess: So how was the transition? The one brick house was built and then
the —

Roth: The other was built about five years later.

Riess: Then you were able to stay in the wooden house until the brick house
was completed?

Roth: Oh, no, Mother rented an apartment.

Kortum: The first brick house was her concept? Was that what she wanted in
the way of a house?

Roth: Yes, she wanted it.

Riess: After the earthquake, I guess wood and brick were probably both in
some disrepute.

Roth: Oh, I said to my father that I would never live in a house that had
fallen down. Well, the chimneys and the windows broke, but it was
a well-built house. There weren't any major repairs, we just had to
fix the attic.

In the meantime my father built a house for me.
Kortum: Where was that?

Roth: That's on Jackson Street between Steiner and Buchanan. It's still
there. My father built that after I was married. It was finished
before he died.

Kortum: He died in 1917, I think.

81

Roth: In '17 because I remember I had got my Mason piano on the by-the-
month payment and that sure caused a disaster.

Riess: Why?

Roth: My father came over for dinner and I said, "This is my new piano.
Don't you love it?" He said, "Where did you get it?" I said, "I
bought it." He said, "How did you pay for it?" I said, "By the
month; it will take two years to pay for it." He had never done a
thing like that in his life and he said, "Never , to the end of your
life, do you do anything like that again. If you can afford it, you
buy it; if you can't afford it, you don't buy it. You should always
pay for what you get."

Kortum: That's a very simple rule.

Roth: A simple rule, but it is a good rule because you pay twice as much in
the end.

Riess: True, but he was probably paying back investors all the time under
the same kinds of terms.

Roth: Oh, yes, that's a different thing! [laughs] That was for him.

Kortum: According to the Erna Fergus son interview which I thought was a very
nice one, your father liked to discuss matters with you, business
matters I would gather, to some degree.

Roth: Yes, he did. He did every night. As a matter of fact, they would
even ring me up from the office to ask if my father discussed [a
matter] and to give them an idea on which way he was going. [laughter]
I think he did it probably because if he discussed the same thing
with my mother, she might have made suggestions. Being young, I didn't.
I listened and didn't answer. So I think maybe he was just getting
things off his chest. He couldn't talk at the office and this was a
way of getting things off his mind.

Riess: Then you weren't supposed to be a kind of confidante?

Roth: No, I didn't think so. He never said, "Don't tell," but he was just
always talking over little problems.

Riess: The more I hear about your mother, she sounds like she would have
opinions and she was a very strong individual.

Roth: Yes, Mother was very opinionated, and she was smart and she would no
doubt have had an opinion. But I don't think an opinion is what he
wanted. He wanted to get things off his chest. He was superstitious
too.

82

Kortum: Yes, sailors usually are.

Roth: Most Swedes and sailors are very superstitious. He believed in his
dreams — and his dreams came true. I told you before they did.

Riess: About your mother's good organization, this response to the earthquake
emergency — going and turning off the water and all of that — did people
in the city at that time know what they would do in the event of an
earthquake? Was an earthquake always a present danger?

Roth: We never thought of it. We had all been to the opera and heard Caruso
the night before.

Kortum: Oh, the famous Caruso visit.

Riess: Yet she did know to go upstairs and turn off the water and —

Roth: Well, that's just housekeeping.

Riess: I guess so, but there might have been a lot more hysterical reaction.

Roth: No, she wasn't hysterical.

Kortum: What do you remember of the vibration of the house?

Roth: I just thought it was awful. I couldn't run out of the house quick
enough.

Kortum: Did the chimneys crash down?

Roth: Chimney [were] crashing down. But it was a well-built house, so we
didn't have any walls that went. Cracks we had and all the chimneys
down and windows broken, but really no walls down.

Riess: Did you have help in the house then and did they scatter?
Roth: I don't remember. Chinese, we must have had Chinese.
Riess: It sounds like she was very good with the horses.

Roth: Oh, she was as good a driver as my father, because they used to race
home a lot.

Kortum: Race home from where?

Roth: When we were at Leeside over there at Mills College. We kept horses
at Fruitvale and took the train to Fruitvale and then drove from
Fruitvale home. Mother kept her horse there and my father kept his
and they would take the same train home. They always had a little
race, but nobody ever got ahead of my father.

83

Riess : Which one would you ride with under those circumstances?
Roth: I don't remember; probably my father.

Kortum: Was he driving a double span?

Roth: A double, or a single generally. He could drive a double. We had
enough horses for it.

Kortum: Maybe you can comment on your father's love of his horses. He is
famous for it.

Roth: That he was. He just loved them. It finally got so that my mother
would not allow me to go to an auction sale with my father because
she said I encouraged him to buy — which was true.

Kortum: You would see a horse that appealed to you —

Roth: It appealed to me and my father would say, "How do you like it?" And

I'd love it. Then we'd have it and then Captain Rock would get another
horse to take care of!

Kortum: To board.
Roth: To board.

Riess: You said he [Rock] had a twinkle in his eye and I thought maybe that
was because he was a co-conspirator.

Roth: Oh, I'm sure he liked them too.

Kortum: "They're stashing away another horse in Alameda!" [laughter]

Roth: He would not tell Mother about it unless he had to.

Kortum: These sessions with your father, would he come up to your room and
talk to you or where did he sit down and discuss his plans and
problems? Where would this be in the house?

Roth: In the library.

Kortum: You would sit and he would say, "I'm considering buying the Welch
line of sailing ships, and they're pretty old vessels and I'll
dispose of them."

Roth: Yes, that's it. He would tell me how much it was going to cost and
then all of the problems and the people on the board that were
against it and the ones that were for it.

84

Roth: I'll never forget when he had his first stroke, I guess it was.

(I don't know whether it was a stroke or heart.) Dr. Herzstein came
in and my father said, "There are a lot of important things down on
the dock and I'd like to know when I can get up."

Herzstein said, "Well, Captain, I guess if you take it easy,
maybe in about three weeks."

Well, my father burst into such laughing that they were worried
about him! And in one week he was out.

Kortum: Did that have a bad effect on his health?

Roth: It didn't matter. He didn't care. I went down behind him, holding
onto his coattail. Finally I got one of the policemen and said,
"Would you please stand near my father because here he is, up out of
bed, and just at the edge of the wharf" — you know, watching how the
ship is getting along. So the policeman did.

Kortum: He was frail?

Roth: Of course, he was frail. He was supposed to be in bed three weeks and
he was out in a week.

Kortum: Watching the arrival or the departure of the ships?

Roth: Yes, or there may have been a strike. He was very determined that
way.

Kortum: You were hanging on to his coattail?

Roth: I was hanging on. I was actually hanging on without his feeling it

because here he was right at the edge and kind of wobbly and I knew he
was wobbly. He didn't care.

Kortum: In these discussions of the business with your father, what comment
would you put in? You must have said something once in awhile.

Roth: I didn't say anything.

Kortum: You weren't trying to shape his decisions?

Roth: No, because I had the feeling that it was relief for him. After it

had gone on for so many years, you couldn't help but have that feeling.

Kortum: How long would a session like this be, a half an hour?
Roth: Oh, maybe fifteen minutes or a half hour.

85

Kortum: Would this be after dinner possibly?

Roth: Yes, or breakfast in the morning. We always had breakfast together.

Riess : Did he use your husband [William P. Roth] as an ear also?

Roth: No.

Riess: It went on after you were married —

Roth: I was only married a year [before he died],

Riess: I am thinking of that period of time.

Ro th : No .

Riess: But he might still have wished to discuss things with you in that time?

Roth: Yes.

Kortum: Your husband went on to pioneer in the tourist business.

Roth: Yes, most people don't give Bill enough credit.

Kortum: There was that fine article in Fortune Magazine. That really told
the story quite well.*

Roth: Yes, have you seen that?
Riess: No, when was that?

Kortum: We have it at the museum in the library. It tells of the expansion
under Mr. Roth — really getting rolling on the tourist trade and the
trans-Pacific liners.

Roth: He realized with these big ships that the people, the tourists, going
to Hawaii had to have some place to stay when they got there.

Then Matson tried to get into the airplane business which didn't
work out.

Kortum: What was the scene in Hilo when you arrived down there first? Was
it a pretty primitive place?

Roth: Yes, you didn't go to a dock. You went ashore in a row boat.

*Fortune Magazine, Vol. 16 #3, September, 1937.

86

Kortum:
Roth:

Kortum:
Roth:

Kortum:
Roth:

Kortum:
Roth:

Kortum:

Roth:

Kortum:

Roth:

Kortum:
Roth:

Was it one of the ship's boats or did somebody row out from shore?

No, it was one of the ship's boats. The ship lowered its boats and

the passengers went ashore and you went up the Wailuku River [sp.?]. That

is the river that goes up by the plantation; it was rough going

ashore.

Rough in a sense that the harbor could be rough?

Yes, very. They did not have the breakwater then. The breakwater
was built later. Hilo Bay was open water, really, and it was very
rough, very rough.

So the sailing ship would work in under sail. Was there a tug, do
you remember? You must have had a tug.

No, I don't think so. I think most all our captains had pilot's
licenses and I think now the law is that you have to have a pilot.
But in those days, you didn't have to have a pilot if you had a
pilot's license. But it was, oh, so rough going to shore, and
generally raining because it rains every other day in Hilo. For a
bit, anyway.

Hilo was a port where your father saw opportunities. Honolulu was
well developed, but the thought that this place could be —

Yes, because there was nobody in Hilo and in Honolulu you had the other
line. What was it?

Oceanic?
Oceanic.

Yes, the Spreckels line. When you got ashore in those early visits,
for example, what did you do?

We generally stayed with a Mrs. Severence and she had kind of a
boarding house. You would call it a motel now. They had their own
house and also cottages.

Where did you eat, at a communal table?

That was in the very beginning, but most of the time we stayed at
plantations because most of the cargo we carried was for either
Hakalau or one of the big plantations.

I

We stayed with the Scotts, friends of ours.
Kortum: They would invite you as guests to their home?

87

Roth: As a matter of fact, I went to school with — all those big plantations
had very good schools for their children because there were no schools
in Hilo. So they had tutors from Harvard or Yale or Cornell, especially
Cornell. Their own children, and the children of the top people in
their offices would come to the school.

Riess: That was the kind of school where your mother had been going to
teach.

Roth: Yes, that's where Mother was going to teach. She had twelve children.
Riess: The expense of a tutor from Harvard or Yale —
Roth: That was carried by the plantation.

Often when we went down, Mother and I would stay over one trip.
It's kind of a long sailing trip just to go for three or four days.
The ship stays there and then the ship would come back maybe a month
later or two months and I would just go to school there.

Kortum: You had to resume your schooling?

Roth: I would just go back to school.

Riess: That could have been a very good schooling experience.

Roth: Oh, it was. All those children went to — most of them went to Yale
and Cornell. There weren't many from Harvard, but a group of them
went to Cornell.

Kortum: When you stayed in the boarding house in the early voyages —
Roth: I can't remember now. I was very little then.
Kortum: You don't remember everybody at a big table?

Roth: No, I don't remember. I just remember mosquitoes and mosquito nets.
We slept under mosquito nets. I remember that and I remember being
terribly frightened left alone in the cottage while they all were
at dinner.

Kortum: Where did you get your dinner?
Roth: I don't know. I had it, I'm sure.

Riess: [Were you] more frightened than you would be ordinarily? Was there
something strange about being —

88

Roth: Well, it was in the cottage and raining and mosquitoes and a mosquito
net! [laughter] I was very little then.

Kortum The town didn't amount to anything at all, Hilo?

Roth: Water used to run down the streets and I used to sail boats in the
gutter coming down the street. It would just pour down because it
rains there all the time. But it was a wonderful old town.
Everything went on in the drug store like a small town. They had
ice cream sodas and all the gossip. Then, in Hilo, everybody went to
church all day Sunday .

Riess: Presbyterian?
Roth: Congregational.

Kortum: When you were sailing boats in the gutter, presumably that was while
you were in the boarding house.

Roth: Oh, yes, I was just a little kid then. I remember at the Scotts we
sang hymns after dinner. We sang hymns after lunch, too.

Kortum: Every day?

Roth: No, on Sunday. It was just a hymn day.

Riess: Did each plantation have its minister?

Roth: No, no, no, you went to the village church.

Riess: Did the natives seem strange? Were they speaking a pidgin English?
Would you have any kind of relations with them at all? Were they
part of the reason that you thought it was scary?

Roth: No, I wouldn't think they were strange. There was always pidgin
English, now the same as then! [laughter]

Kortum: You told me once before about going aloft presumably on the Falls of
Clyde and your father —

Roth: Sliding out on the yard. If I ate my mush that was my treat!

Kortum: You were allowed to climb aloft.

Roth: I was allowed to go with my father and slide out on the yard.

Kortum: That's on a foot rope. It's the little wire rope under the yard you
are standing on and you are holding onto this big spar.

89

Roth: No, you are sitting on it.

Kortum: Oh, you straddled the yard.

Roth: You slide out.

Riess: Sidesaddle!

Kortum: No, not sidesaddle; straddling it.

Riess: Oh, I thought she meant with her legs over, straddling it that way.

Kortum: I imagine one leg on one side and one on the other.

Roth: No, both legs on the same side. My father would slide out and I

would slide next to him. He could do that. [laughs] 1 had great
confidence in him, I guess, when I think of it! I think it was the
worst idea I could ever have had. I've never had mush since!

Riess: That's when you should have been holding onto his coattails.
Roth: I thought I had more sense! [laughter]

Kortum: We just put a yard on display on the porch of the museum. You might take
a look at it. It could bring back old times!

Roth: Yes, see how I liked to go out on it.

Well, the ship would be just going easy; not on a rough day, but
on an easy day. All the sailors had to go out that way.

How do you [Kortum] go down a ladder? I go down a ladder this
way, with my face towards you and the ladder behind me. Is that a
sailor's way?

Kortum: No, not with the ladder behind you.

Roth: That's the way I would go down the ladder. I don't know how I learned
that.

Kortum: Facing outward?

Roth: Outward with my arms through; it's the safest way. You get to the
edge and you're facing the edge, and I put my arm through and I can
go down quick that way.

Kortum: Different ships, different long splices! [laughter]
Roth: That's it.

90

Kortum: Do you remember anything about the personality of the cooks on any
of these vessels? The cook is frequently a character on board.

Roth: No, I don't. I should.

Kortum: I know there was a steward aboard who waited on table.

Roth: But the cabin boy was always very important because he really ran
everything. He was the one that washed out — of course, now they
have just deck boys, but it would be your cabin boy who would be a
deck boy, too, on those early ships.

Riess: Was this when you had passengers that there was this assigned role?
Kortum: He would be making the bunks and —

Roth: He would make the beds and bring you your beef tea at eleven. He would
be doing everything really. They made quite a bit of it because it was
more profitable for them, of course, if they could give very good
service. Those cabin boys were really wonderful boys.

Riess: Were they Chinese?

Roth: No, probably Swedes.

Riess: They get tipped at the end of the voyage though.

Roth: Yes.

Kortum: I have not been to sea much as a passenger, but I recall what a great
event in the passenger's life the meals are. You really look forward
to a meal. It's a highlight.

Roth: That still goes on. I think the reason people take the cruises is
to eat: they're always eating.

Kortum: Do you recall on the sailing ships the same anticipation of a meal
and a meal being —

Roth: Yes, I think so. But the food wasn't the same as what they serve now.
Kortum: I think we've covered quite a bit. It's been a pleasure.

Mrs. William P. Roth

91

V RED CROSS WORKS, AND OTHER INTERESTS
[Interview 5: December 17, 1980] ##

Red Cross Volunteer Chairman

Riess: I see that one of your areas of interest over the years has been the
Red Cross.

Roth: I always had some charity before I was married, and when I was first
married I always did something. One was the Presbyterian Orphanage,
which .is now Edgewood. Before I was married, I used to play the piano
for the dancing class. And I worked with — what was that we had in
San Francisco where you delivered meals? It's not in existence now.
It was one of our big charities.

Riess: The San Francisco public dance hall was a concern of some of the
women .

Roth: No, I just did for the Edgewood girls. Tillie with the Wand. You
never heard of Tillie with the Wand?

Riess: No.

Roth: Well, then, you've never heard Mr. Folger. Mr. Folger, being a club
member, used to get up at parties and do a little talking or singing.
One of the things he did was Tillie with the Wand. I don't remember
a word of it, but all I know, all you have to do is to mention it
I'd start laughing, because he was so funny!

The Presbyterian Orphanage ended up by being Edgewood Home,
which is still in existence.

Riess: Still an orphanage?

Roth: No, it's not an orphanage now. It takes care of troubled children,
children that are problems at home, that can't live at home. They
live at Edgewood in cottages. My mother was very interested in that,

92

Roth: and as a matter of fact, she donated one of the buildings there;

she built it. It's still there. And there's a group of very fine
young people that work on this board. But it's had to turn into
something that fit the modern days. And there are no adoption agencies,
you see, so it had to go out of existence.

Riess: Was it a racially mixed group?
Roth: Oh, yes.

Riess: So even though it was sponsored by the Presbyterian church, it was
open to everyone.

Roth: Oh, yes, it had to be. Then an awful lot of private money had to go
into keeping it supported. And it is now off of Nineteenth Avenue,
and beautiful buildings, and very well run. My mother was president
for years. I was too.

Riess: When you say an awful lot of private money had to go into it, do you
feel that it's something that should be the responsibility of the —

Roth: Well, I guess now we must have some state money, because I think it's
helped quite a bit. I'm not on the board now, so I don't really know
much about it.

Then after the war began, of course, I was Red Cross volunteer
chairman.

Riess: Did anybody in particular introduce you to that, or bring you into
that group?

Roth: No, I was on the board.

Riess: Well, to be on the board, you must have been appointed by someone.
I'm just wondering how you got started.

Roth: Mrs. Diehl, Frances Diehl, the head of the Red Cross, she apparently
had great confidence in me and, before Pearl Harbor, I worked on a
committee that helped supply things for boys overseas. I mean, small
things. For instance, from the Navy, if they had to have a special
medicine or special watch or something. Mrs. Selah Chamberlain and
I worked together and they called it Camp and Hospital — I was head of
that. Then when Pearl Harbor happened, they asked me to be volunteer
chairman and I think I was chairman for four years. I went to work
every day at eight — eight till five, sometimes six.

Riess: So you drove up every day to the city to do that?

Roth: Sometimes, or we were in town off and on. Down here weekends, you know.

93

Riess : This was the San Francisco chapter?

Roth: San Francisco chapter. But it was pretty big because, you see, we

were the harbor that everything came through. All those poor people
that came back, came back through here, people who came back from
the prisons in the Philippines, the little nuns from the Catholic
missions that the Filipinos made walk up the road on their knees. I
remember them at the pier, you know, picking out clothes. They had
nothing but just their dresses. No underwear, nothing underneath at
all, just nothing. They were so sweet, picking out their underwear,
because [laughs] the things that looked nice, looked so nice to them.
You could see the happiness in their faces, just when they could see
something nice and clean to wear. It was pathetic, just awful,
really awful .

Riess: Tell me more.

Roth: Well, it was regular Red Cross work.

Riess: I think of Red Cross as rolling bandages, mostly.

Roth: Oh, we rolled bandages, all the bandages, of course, but you have

your production department and you have your motor corps. You see,
you had motor corps then, and we probably had four ambulances in
use. Then you had your supplies to send out, and all the other
chapters would be working under the San Francisco chapter.

Riess: The East Bay, and Richmond.

Roth: Yes, because you see, we had the docks where the ships came, where
the boys landed.

Riess: The individual soldiers were able to request things of the Red Cross?

Roth: They did through this committee called Camp and Hospital, not through
the main channels of the Red Cross. Camp and Hospital was a part of
Red Cross, but it was a part that was put into operation just during
the war to take care of — for instance, a boy might have to sell his
watch. He needed the money and wouldn't want to take it overseas.
Little things like that.

And once a week I took a show out to some place, Navy or Army
camps, and some of the places that were more or less hidden, secret
places.

There was a group in San Francisco called the cookie ladies. And
the Army and Navy just loved the cookies, but the cookie ladies were
not terribly well disciplined. [laughs] The Army said, "They've got
to come through Red Cross. If they come through Red Cross, it will
be fine."

94

Riess: Well, what did they do that was a problem?

Roth: You know, they'd come to the camps with earrings and pearls, and do
different things that you don't do in the Army. The Army's rather
strict. So they came through me. I was head of that committee, which
had nothing to do with my being chairman, too, but every Wednesday
night I'd call NBC and I had a friend there, Bill Baldwin, and I'd
say, "Bill, what's going on tonight?" He'd say, "Well, we'll look
and see," and he'd look around and see what talent and shoo them all
out.

Riess: Yes, because you said you had a group going out and I wondered who was
in charge of it.

Roth: Bill Baldwin, and he's with somebody famous now. I haven't seen him
since — he was excellent.

Riess: When you say some secret places, what does this mean?
Roth: Places that nobody knew about. We had a few of those.

Riess: And what kind of soldiers or people would be kept in these secret
places?

Roth: They were protecting the city. Hilo Hattie did her whole performance
on the ping pong table one night in one of those secret places.

Riess: Hilo Hattie?

Roth: Hilo Hattie, yes, I took her out. You haven't heard of Hilo Hattie?

She's famous in Hawaii. She died just last month, but she was wonderful.

Riess: Was she like Bloody Mary?

Roth: She was a dancer. At Filoli, she used to do the Hilo Hattie Hop.

Riess: In your eight-to-five Red Cross day, would you meet in the morning
with the heads of all of your divisions?

Roth: We had meetings all day long. I had a charming vice-president, Mrs.
Madison, who made all my speeches for me; so I never had to make a
speech.

Riess: Is that because you don't like to make speeches?

Roth: I can't.

Riess: You don't have time.

95

Roth: No, I can ' t . So Mrs. Marshall Madison, she makes beautiful speeches.

Riess: To what kinds of groups is this?

Roth: Oh, we had large groups.

Riess: To raise money?

Roth: Raise money, and explain what the Red Cross was doing and — Oh, I
didn't mind running the meetings. That doesn't bother me. But
speeches I don't like.

Riess: Now the Red Cross gets a lot of support from the Community Chest,
but it was separate in those days, wasn't it?

Roth: Then it was not in the Chest. Door to door, that was the way. You'd
write to people that can donate a little more, and then a door to
door.

During the war, there was no problem in raising money. People
were willing to give.

Riess: This was one of the ways that the civilians really could contribute.

Roth: Yes. Because you have to buy material for bandages, and you have to
buy gasoline to run the ambulances. You see we met all these ships
that came in, and they might have two hundred wounded on board.

Riess: Then were there places already waiting for them in the various
hospitals?

Roth: Oh, yes, oh, yes.

Riess: That was all arranged.

Roth: That's what we would do, you see.

Riess: You would make those arrangements.

Roth: Arrangements through the Army or the Navy, so everything would be
planned when they came in.

Riess: Was there a person that you were constantly in contact with?

Roth: They had what the Army called a field director, and he was in charge
of anything that would come up locally.

Riess:

He was the liaison.

96

Roth: Yes. We happened to have a very good man that I could work with
nicely.

Riess: When you came in after Pearl Harbor, how much building up of the
organization needed to be done?

Roth: Oh, a lot, because we were then just a very small organization, and
then, you see, San Francisco becoming the big port, we then bought
a building because we grew so.

Riess: So you had to have a whole building just to run your operation.
Roth: Oh, yes, we had people on three, four floors.
Riess : Where was your building?

Roth: Van Ness, between California and Sacramento. It's there still, but
we sold it a little while ago.

Riess : Had the Red Cross been this geared up during World War I?

Roth: [pause] I was too young, I wasn't interested then.

Riess: I wondered if there had been any precedent.

Roth: It was different, World War I, the war wasn't here.

Riess: That's true. It was not on our edges.

Roth: We were so near Pearl Harbor. And the Philippines, you see. We had

all the wounded coming back here. They all came through San Francisco.

Riess: And did you also have to have a department that would have involved
interpreters?

Roth: Oh, yes, and then the family service, where they got in touch with the
family, which was regular Red Cross work.

Riess: When that ended, that must have left a big hole in a lot of people's
lives .

Roth: I was glad to take a rest, because I worked every day, all day. I

was always at the office by a quarter past eight and I never left till
five.

Riess: And feeling under pressure?

Roth: Yes, there was plenty of work for me to do. I could work all day.
I think it just sort of grew, just grew.

97

Roth: And then, of course, Red Cross is a volunteer thing, and you have to
learn to get along with people. There were some people that Elena
Madison, vice-president, could get along with better than I did, and
we'd kind of divide up that way. So everyone was happy.

Riess: Would you recruit people through other organizations, like churches?

Roth: Yes, churches, and through the Army and Navy clubs too, you'd be able
to get people.

Riess: Also during that war there was USD, United Service Organization,
dancing with the soldiers. Did that exist out here also?

Roth: Yes, oh yes.

Riess: But the Red Cross wouldn't do that kind of thing?

Roth: No, just this one show I took out, which had nothing to do with my

position as volunteer chairman. It was this Camp and Hospital thing
I'd been in first. And it was really the Navy that got us into that,
because the Navy said, "We cannot afford to lose these people, but we
cannot have them come in unaccompanied."

Riess: The cookie ladies.

Roth: Yes. And they served cakes such as you've never tasted after our show.
We'd have a singer. We'd get a couple of singers, whoever was at a
theater in town. Bill Baldwin had quite a bit of pull and he was
awfully good himself; he was a good MC. He was MC, I think, for one
of our big movie people.

Riess: Did you have Bob Hope up here?

Roth: No, I didn't have Bob Hope, I never took Bob Hope.

Riess: Bing Crosby?

Roth: Bing, I'm not sure that Bing lived here then.

Riess: Did the cookie ladies fall in line nicely or were they among the
volunteers that were difficult?

Roth: They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful. And the head of the cookie
ladies was Mrs. Ets-Hokin.

Riess: You must have some wisdom to share about working with volunteers.
Roth: That's easy. Just get along with them.

98

Riess: Yes. Isn't it sort of a matter of meeting their need to feel —

Roth: [pauses] Well — you just have to let them feel that they're accomplishing
something. I think that's really the trick.

They were wonderful working people, dedicated to their work. They
really worked. I couldn't say enough for the people that worked here
at the Red Cross .

And if you've ever been to a pier, and seen our boys come in...
it would be easy to get volunteers. You'd just see the work that had
to be done.

Riess: Some of these women had husbands overseas?

Roth: Oh, yes, a lot of them did.

Riess: Did emotion run high all the time because of that?

Roth: Always. And, of course, between volunteers there's always quite a

bit of jealousy — little feuds. It all blew over, because there was so
much work to do they just didn't have time for it.

Riess: You wouldn't have heard about all of this anyway.

Roth: Oh, yes, I'd hear about it. But I think they were all too busy. They
did a wonderful job. I'm still on the board as an honorary member,
so I read the minutes, and once in a while go to the meetings.

Riess: Is it harder to get people interested in it?

Roth: Yes, now it's difficult. When there isn't a war, they don't want to
work. And the work isn't as interesting, let's face it.

Riess: Floods and disaster aren't interesting?

Roth: Oh, yes, but then you are a professional mostly.

The Red Cross will be a hundred years next year. I am on the
centennial committee. They are celebrating it all over the world.

•
Riess: Has it always been a women's organization, would you say?

Roth: No. I wouldn't think it's a women's — our board of directors are mostly
men. There are a great many men. You take disaster relief. They're
mostly men.

Riess: But they are staff, aren't they?

99

Roth: No. You have a volunteer chairman and you have a volunteer committee.

It's very hard to get a volunteer to chair a good committee when there's
nothing coming up. Now there might be a flood coming up, but at the
time, say, there's no flood, no nothing, and you can't get people.
They don't want to work then. There's nothing glamorous about it, you
see.

Riess: And that's a hard time to try to gather funds, because people don't

want to give for the future. They want to give for the crisis, I guess.

Roth: Yes, that's it. For the war, it's easy. Funds rolled in. We could
always get what we needed. Think of the clothes they sent down to
the piers for these people who came in with nothing, just nothing.

Riess: Were the clothes mostly gathered from individuals, or did you get
them from stores?

Roth: No, you had to get them from stores. You had to be pretty careful what
you picked up, you know. You just didn't have discarded things. And
the stores gave, and individuals gave coats. Because all those that
came from the prisons in Manila, they had nothing. Just what was on
the outside, that's all.

Riess: Then did they stay on?

Roth: They were sent different places. I'd say every one was a case that

you had to follow through with. In other words, you had to know that
they reached their destination, that there was a mother or a sister or
someone to take care of them. That's not volunteer work, you see. We
had paid social workers. They were naturally more effective doing that
work. Volunteers would do the work up to where the social worker would
take over.

Riess: It sounds like a very important time in your life.

Roth: It was, for me. It was very satisfying. I worked very hard, but I
loved every day of my work. I really loved it, really loved it.

War and Postwar: Stables, Servants

Riess: You had to let the horses go out to pasture for a few years.

Roth: Oh, everybody turned everything out. The big horses, the big Hackneys,
never came back, because they used them in work, and they never came
back as the show horse. Only one show in the East now has a few.

100

Riess: The horses were requisitioned, is that what you're saying?

Roth: Yes. They used them up. The Hackneys. You see, there's a Hackney

pony and a Hackney horse. And the Hackneys are a strong horse, quite
strong. And I've never had a big Hackney horse since the war.

Riess: They were sent overseas?

Roth: No, they used them in the Army, working. And they died off. Nobody's
had any since, you see, because the original Hackney horse was imported
from England. Well, England naturally lost all theirs, so there was
nothing to import. That's why I have that big collection of rigs at
Filoli. Can't use them any more. I have no big horses.

Riess: Do you remember somebody coming and saying, "We need your horses?"

Roth: No. I just sold them. By the time the war was over, they would be
too old to be any good anyway.

Riess: How about your saddle horses, though?

Roth: Saddle horses were different. They were taken. They used those, too,
but that's an American horse. It's bred here.

Riess: I mean during that period of time when you weren't really using your
horses, what happened?

Roth: No, nobody had any. Everybody, well, you couldn't have a stable because
the boys in the stable would be in the Army. So there was no stable.

Riess: So in 1945 you then bought a new stable and started all over again?

Roth: Started again. I had nothing left over.

Riess: But when you bought a new stable, where could you go then to find —

Roth: Oh, I saw people in the Midwest.

Riess: Does that mean that some very good lines died out?

Roth: Yes, not with saddle horses, because we had plenty, but with the
Hackney horse, you see.

Riess: But good breeding lines. Would they put a really fine stallion in the
Army? They didn't care how many ribbons were hanging from him?

Roth: No, it didn't matter.

Riess: What happened at Filoli during the war? Were your gardeners American-
born?

101

Roth: No, most of my gardeners were Italian, and they were all mostly older
men. So we just cut down on the gardens and went ahead. Because I
didn't have a gardener that would have been worth a nickel in the
Army. They were all older men.

Riess: Well, he could have gardened the general's patch outside the window,
but — [laughter]

Roth: Maybe yes, but in the meantime, he could keep up mine better.
Riess: You hadn't had Japanese gardeners that were then relocated?

Roth: My mother had a Japanese servant and I inherited Taka. Then I had

to send him to camp, which was a sad thing. I had to leave him with
his suitcase down on Van Ness Avenue to be picked up to go to camp.
He'd been in the house for twenty years with us, you know. However,
I felt happier having him away. You see we were in the shipping
business and he waited on the table. I think it was better that he
went away. Then we were clear because something could be said and —

Riess: It really would be a test of his strength of character.

Roth: That's it. And he was easy-going; people influenced him. Finally
I said, "Taka, you canno t go to Japantown. You can stay with me as
long as they let you, but you mustn't — if you want to take a walk, you
can walk out on the street, but you cannot go to Japantown."

Riess: He could be bribed?

Roth: He could be. Maybe he couldn' t be, but in the steamship business, I
couldn't take the chance.

Riess: Did he come back to you afterwards, after the war?

Roth: Oh, yes, he came back. I had a Chinese cook and that [laughing]
was something!

Riess : Why?

Roth: Well, the Chinese and the Japanese didn't get along very well, so Taka
used to read the paper to Kee, because he couldn't read the paper.
When there was a blackout, I was always scared for fear that one would
be dead at the end of the blackout, [laughs]

Riess: Those old enmities.

Roth: Oh yes, yes. They didn't like each other, at all. They hated each
other.

Riess: What was Matson Shipping doing during the war?

102

Roth: Oh, they were all taken by the Navy. We didn't have any. Oh, I guess
we probably had a few freighters.

Riess: What, did your husband do?

Roth: Actually [chuckles] I don't know what he did — went to the office.

Other Shipping Families

Riess: I had asked you once if you had ever met Onassis, and you said he was
one of many people you had entertained.

Roth: Yes. I enjoyed him very much. He was a great friend, a very dear

friend of ours. And this was before he was married to his first wife.

Riess: He was young.

Roth: And very prosperous, and this friend of ours brought him down for the
weekend, and we really had a happy time. I enjoyed him. As a matter
of fact, he then invited us to his first wedding, and we went. She was
beautiful. A beautiful bride.

Riess: You flew to Athens?

Roth: No, no, that was in New York.

Riess: He was one of those people, I understand, that just gave off such a
sense of power.

Roth: He overdid the drinking, which was his downfall. Which was too bad.
It really was too bad.

Riess: Were there signs of that in the beginning, when he was a young man?

Roth: No, in the beginning it wasn't that way. He was gay and full of life.
It wasn't that way. But then he became really too much, too much.

Riess: Did he do any business with Matson particularly, any tie-ins there?

Roth: I don't think so.

Riess: How about some of the other big shipping families?

Roth: Well, one of our other friends was Mr. Eugenides.
f*

103

Roth: Eugenides owned most of the big ships sailing out of Athens. A very
prominent Greek in the shipping business, and a friend I guess of
these other important ones, Niarchos, only older, you see. Eugenides
died before Niarchos became quite so famous. I still get a Christmas
card from his sister. She must be awfully old. He loaned us a yacht
one year, which we enjoyed.

Riess: In the Mediterranean?

Roth: Yes. He died quite a number of years ago, but he was to what the
other important ones are now.

Riess: Yes, the equivalent.

Roth: And he knew Onassis, too. I met Onassis at his house. Of course, he
was older then. He lived at home in Lausanne, Switzerland.

Riess: A lot of them choose Switzerland.

Roth: They keep their money there.

Riess: Before the war, had you known the big Japanese shipping outfits?

Roth: I didn't, I really didn't. Swedish, yes. Because, my father having been
consul general, we had met all the Swedes.

Riess: Then is it Ralph Davies who was president of American President Line —
the other big West Coast shipper?

Roth: Yes, but that's later.

Riess: I'm trying to get a picture of the whole shipping scene.

Roth: Stanley Dollar.

Riess: Yes. Tell me about him.

Roth: I couldn't tell you about that. I don't really know. I knew the
daughter, and I knew him.

Other Volunteer Activities

Riess: I was asking you about your early areas of interest and time and energy.
For instance, the League of Women Voters, was that something?

Roth: No. Definitely No.

104

Riess: How about your husband's interests, other than work?

Roth: I don't think he had any. I think he never had time. I don't think
he had time for anything.

Riess: For symphony boards and things like that?

Roth: No. Opera board, I've been on for years. Symphony, no.

Riess: Ballet?

Roth: No.

Riess: You were a trustee of the de Young?

Roth: Yes, that I've been for years. It's not de Young now, it's the Fine
Arts Museums .

Riess: Was your heart really in that?

Roth: The art part I like. Yes. It's been a very interesting work out at

the de Young, because after all we started from a pretty little museum.

Riess: And in your time on that board, what major things were you involved in?
Roth: I have been on various committees, all interesting.

Riess: Do you remember the negotiations for the great collections like the
Brundage?

Roth: Oh, Brundage, we really worked on.

Riess: Were you among those people who courted Mr. Brundage?

Roth: Oh, yes. Everybody did. [laughter] Everybody did. I had somebody
else I had to court too. I've forgotten who it was now. But we had
to do a lot of courting.

Riess: I'd like to hear about courting Mr. Brundage.

Roth: We all just entertained a bit, to convince him, show him and convince
him and line him up. [chuckles] He was so evasive. He really was
naughty because he was very evasive.

Riess: Playing with this city.

Roth: Yes. Playing back and forth. And we just spent so much time on it, a
couple of years to be working so hard.

Riess: Where did he have his collection?

105

Roth: Various places. Stored, I think, mostly. Some in his home in Santa
Barbara. Then I think stored in warehouses.

Riess: Who was the director of the de Young at the time that you were on it?

Roth: Dr. Heil.

Riess: Did he work well with the board? How were his relations with the board?

Roth: I wouldn't say a hundred percent. It was difficult. H£ was difficult.

Riess: He was difficult, or the board was.

Roth: He was difficult.

Riess: Once again, it's volunteers.

Roth: That's it. [aside to whimpering puppy] Oh, stop!

No, he was difficult. Ian White's been great because Ian can work
with people. I think the head of a museum has got to be someone that
can work with different personalities.

Don't forget, our boards are better now than they were. They're
more carefully selected. I think they select people with a better
knowledge of what they're going to do.

Riess: So you had the experience of working on a board with both Heil and Ian
White?

Roth: Oh yes, I've been on the board forever.

Riess: Is that a reappointment every four years, or how does that work?

Roth: Yes, I think you get to be an honorary board member and then you're

that for a few years, and then you're a board member again. But now I
am off.

Riess: Caroline Charles said you set up the auxiliary at San Francisco
General with Mrs. Nion Tucker.*

Roth: Oh, yes, maybe I did. But that's so worthwhile, those poor people.

*See interview with Caroline Moore Charles, The Action and Passion
of Our Times, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library,
University of California, Berkeley, 1979.

106

Riess: Well, San Francisco General is the downtrodden —
Roth: Oh, it's terrible, it's unbelievable.
Riess: Was that hard to get volunteers to work on?

Roth: I got most of them from the office, from our office. I don't know
whether they have it anymore. I set it up, anyway. Just so little
money — if you send them a hundred dollars, it's like a million.
Those poor people — my daughter Lurline worked there quite a bit, and
it's really sad.

Riess: Once again, it's a case where —

Roth: It should be done by the city! But it isn't.

Riess: If you could convince two or three of the volunteers at Mount Zion,
or something, that their time would be better spent there —

Roth: It would be. Because these poor people, they have nothing, and they
get nothing.

Riess: Is there any sense of coordination of all of the hospital boards or
volunteers across the city?

Roth: I don't think so. I don't do anything about it now. I just send a
check.

Riess: [laughs] When you were getting it started —

Roth: Oh no, no. We had to work on it a bit. It isn't pleasant work.

No, I think the hospital's better now since they 've had the new addition.
Now I believe everything is fine. I think everything's fine because
they had this most wonderful woman who headed it there. She's dead now,
and I can't think of her name, so I shouldn't mention it without knowing
her name because she was absolutely marvelous. She got along with the
staff and got along with patients and volunteers. She really put it
over.

Riess: It's interesting. I suppose you had seen things that bad during your
Red Cross days, so you were not naive about human misery maybe.

Roth: Oh, this was misery. And it's misery today, I bet, too.

107

William Matson Roth

Riess : There was a Lurline Roth Foundation for a while.

Roth: Yes, there was, and I think that you would have to ask the office
about. That we had to give up when we gave Filoli to the National
Trust. We took the money in the foundation and donated it to Filoli.
I think that's what happened.

Riess: In the oral history interview done with your son, Bill, he muses about
why some families really have a strongly developed sense of giving.*
Could you speculate on what makes some people have that strong sense
of philanthropy?

Roth: I think you're born that way. I really think you're born that way.
The feeling of wanting to give, and enjoying it. Then some people
give and don't enjoy it. They give because they have to. But they're
not happy in doing it. And I think some people just like to give. •

Riess: That probably also would define the difference between the volunteer
you could work with and the one you couldn't.

Roth: Yes, that's it. I think some people just enjoy giving. And it gives

them pleasure. It certainly gives me. If I had more to give, it would
be wonderful.

Riess: Your son certainly seems to be one of those people.

Roth: Oh, he gives much too much. He gives more than he can afford. He

does. But he loves it. But he's fussy who he gives to; it has to be
something he likes.

Riess: He is pretty remarkable.

Roth: The best son in the world!

Riess: Tell me about him when he was young, and how he shaped up.

Roth: Well, he just was easy to bring up. And possibly I was easy too.

Riess: He was your first child.

*See interview with William Matson Roth, Bay Area Foundation History,
Vol. IV, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University
of California, Berkeley, 1976.

108

Roth: Yes. Almost born at the baseball game! [laughter]
Riess: Really?

Roth: Yes. I was at the baseball game and I got a rain check, hoping to
return. I said to Bill, "Let's just get a rain check because maybe
I'll get home and he won't arrive, and so we'll come back and see the
end of the game."

Riess: You were very calm about the whole thing.

Roth: Yes. I got home and the doctor [laughing] didn't get there before
the baby! He arrived before the doctor did.

Riess : Your mother was there and helped you?

Roth: No, no. I had the doctor who gave the anesthetic at Adler's

Sanitarium. What was her name? She was quite famous. I got her.
She arrived, but the doctor arrived just as Bill was being born.

Riess: Well, you sound extremely modern. I thought in those days people spent
a lot of time lying around waiting for it to happen.

Roth: Oh heavens, no. [interviewer chuckles] No, heavens no. I rode
horseback.

Riess: Right up to when?

Roth: Not till the last. The doctor said, "Do it as long as you're
comfortable." Well, you're not comfortable too long.

Bill was an easy child to bring up, very easy.
Riess: Did he go to San Francisco public schools?

Roth: He went to San Francisco schools and then went to Gate's — too young,
a year too young. I was very sad about it, but it was when my mother
was dying of cancer and I really wasn't able to give him the time that
I felt I should. If he came home with a black eye, after a fight or
playing baseball, I was upset because I was nervous. I just felt that
I was too picky, and it was better for him to be away. So I sent him
to Gate's. He felt he was sent a year too young.

Riess : When was that?

Roth: I think he was only thirteen, maybe.

Riess: Did he go with friends from around here?

109

Roth: No, he didn't. He was happy at Gate's. After I sent him, I went down
every other weekend and took him out on Sunday, because he could have
Sunday off, for that first year.

I think Bill felt it was a little early.
Riess: This is something he would say now?
Roth: Yes, he'd say don't do it.
Riess: He must really remember it as being tough.
Roth: That was it.

You see, the twins were young enough that you didn't have to devote
as much time to them. They had a nurse and they were little. But
when a boy gets over ten, you know, they need attention.

Riess: And your husband, how much time would your husband have to give?
Roth: Well, he was so busy working. He was always so busy.
Riess: Did he go to Gate's through the high school years, then?

Roth: Yes, and graduated from there and then went to Yale. Then after Yale,
I think he went to Princeton.

Riess: He was working with the Colt Press around 1938. How did he got into
that crowd?

Roth: Well, of course he knew the Grabhorns, Jane Grabhorn. But he was always
friends with the literary group.

Mr. Gate was devoted to Bill. He was his favorite pupil in the
school. Oh, he loved Bill Roth.

Riess: Did he do athletics?

Roth: He rode at school. The rest of the boys rode. I don't think he was
much into baseball after he was almost born there. He doesn't seem
to like it anymore. [laughter]

Riess: What interests did start showing up early, at Gate's, do you remember?

Roth: Athletics, I would think, and walking. He loves the country, he loves
walking, he loves nature.

Riess: His academic interests? Languages? Math?

110

Roth: I would think not math.

Riess: He seems always to have been interested in historical things, in
preservation.

Roth: He gave a beautiful collection of Yeats to Yale. I think it's a
superb collection.

Riess: Who was his guide in collecting, do you know?

Roth: I have no idea.

Riess: It sounds like he was very independent of you.

Roth: Yes, he was, he was. He was away from home so much. As a little boy,
he went to Europe with my mother, when he was maybe twelve years old.
She took him for two months to Europe and he traveled with her. And
really had a happy time. Not with another boy or anything, but just
him and his grandmother.

You know, you asked about my mother the other day and I went to
this Francisca Club luncheon, where I sat at the table with those that
had been on the board fifty years ago. (That's a long time ago.)

Riess : That is a long time ago , yes .

I

Roth: And I was amazed at the girl that sat next to me. She said, "Lurline,
you don't realize what a very capable woman your mother was." You
know, I'd never heard anybody say it before. And here at this luncheon,
my fifty-year-old friend said, "I just have to tell you how capable
she was." And I'd forgotten, actually, that she was.

Riess: People keep focusing so much on your father.

Roth: That's it. I'd forgotten.

Riess: Your son's politics are different from yours.

Roth: Oh, yes. He's a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat.

Riess : When was that clear?

Ro th : Always . Always . Always .

Riess: Was that a rebellious position in the beginning, do you think?

Roth: I have no idea, but we never discussed it. Politics were never
discussed at home.

Ill

Riess: Is that because your husband would have boiled over?

Roth: No. He would have laughed, but I probably would have gotten into a
battle.

Riess: You would have.

Roth: Yes, _! would have, but Bill (Sr.) wouldn't have. Oh, no, Bill would
have been a gentleman. But not his mother. So, we never discussed
politics.

Riess: Couldn't Bill (Jr.) change your mind? I should think —

Roth: No, he couldn't change my mind, because I make my own mind up. If I

want to change it I'll change it. I voted for a Democrat, when I voted
for Roosevelt. I can vote for anybody I want, but it's going to be
my mind, not his.

Oh, I had to be a Democrat when Bill ran for governor. I couldn't
vote and not be a Democrat, so I was a Democrat and then I got un-
Democrated later. [laughter]

112

VI FILOLI'S GARDENS
[Interview 6: May 4, 1981]##

v
The Gardeners

Riess: We have talked about Filoli in many ways, but today we are going to
talk about the celebrated gardens. Mrs. Roth, when you moved into
Filoli did you have Bruce Porter's plans?

Roth: Mr. Porter's plans I never did see. I think that now they have them.
Since he died, I think we have them at Filoli.

Riess: But it was a celebrated garden then?

Roth: Yes, it was, but pretty much in its beginning. The trees were very
little.

Riess: When he was putting in plants did he buy as mature a specimen as
possible?

Roth: No, I think he bought small things. I think so.

Miss Worn worked under Bruce Porter. At some period they had a
disagreement, on what I have no idea. Bruce Porter left Filoli and
did not go down again. Miss Worn stayed.

Well, Miss Worn was the one that ran the planting. And they had
Italian gardeners, about twelve I'd think counting maintenance men,
and they all worked under one Italian gardener, who worked himself. He
was the head man, but he worked just the same as the rest.

They had a very good system. When they did their summer planting
where you put in all of your little plants, everybody helped that
gardener that had that garden. All of the men got together and they
helped. So they would do all of this planting in no time. A marvelous
system. You couldn't possibly work it now, I'm sure. Where would you
get twelve people to work together? [laughs]

113

Roth: These were all Italians, hardly spoke English, and they had a

fascinating place to live there. They had this big cottage, brick
also. It burned down finally. They had their own cook, and they had
their own meals and they had a bocce ball field over there and they
had a great time. Those were great Italians. One still lives there.
We call him Romeo!

Riess : Were they from the same small town?

Roth: All from the same town, all from northern Italy, the whole crowd.

Riess: Do you know where?

Roth: Yes, oh yes, I've seen their families' places in Italy when I go to

Montecatini. They are from Lucca, near Florence, on the way to Pisa.

Riess: Was the first one or two of them brought by Mr. Bourn or did they
come to this country in search of jobs?

Roth: Oh, I think they were all friends of each others.

Riess: At that time, on any estate on the peninsula, there would have been
Italian gardeners?

Roth: Yes, I think so. Yes, there were so many Italians here, and they were
such good gardeners. But none of that crowd I had had ever been to
school to study horticulture or anything. They just had grown up on
the soil.

Riess:
Roth:

Riess

Roth:

But it interests me that none of them were able to really take it over.
So you are saying they were very good, but they had no imagination?

No, you would have had to have the garden complete. The garden was
complete because what I had done is only carry it further from what
Bruce Porter planned and then enlarge upon it.

Your head gardener, Louis Moriconi, was born in 1918 according to my
notes, and he was still at Filoli in 1968.

Oh, yes, he was the first head gardener. Then he took over the green
house. What he did was give each gardener a part of the garden that
was his to work in and he just got up every morning and worked in his
own place. And, as I say, when they planted, they all helped each
other.

Riess: Had the gardeners brought families with them?
Roth: No, I think we had no families.

Miss Isabella Worn

114

Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:

Roth:

When we bought the place, Miss Worn was not running it. Miss Josselyn
was running it. [spells name] She was a great friend of the Bourns,
so when they were taken sick I suppose was when Miss Worn left and
then Miss Josselyn took over, because she more or less ran the house
when they were sick.

I inherited the butler, Johnson, from the Bourns. I inherited
two from them, also David. Johnson died, but David still comes.

You got Miss Worn back.

I got Miss Worn back and she was one of the greatest women, the
greatest. Why somebody hasn't written a book about Miss Worn, I don't
know, because she was great. She always made you feel that the garden
was absolutely yours. She made me feel as if _I had made the garden.
Well, I didn't make the garden, of course. But she always gave you that
feeling and gave you it when she suggested planting something. She was
always sure that you liked the plant. She didn't plant it just because
it was the proper thing to go in that place. She would be sure you
liked it first. So it gave you a wonderful feeling of possession.

Did you ever disagree with her?

Never! Oh, I was so happy with her, just happy to see her everytime
she came driving in her old truck with her old gardener. She brought
her gardener with her up to the week before she died.

What would her gardener do for her?

[He] would help her do things because she was getting on and couldn't
always do everything. So he carried and helped.

Miss Worn, besides being able to work with the gardener, was one
of our great decorators doing flowers and tables.

When you wanted to get in touch with her again in 1936 or so, when you
hired her back, was she working on the peninsula a lot?

Oh, no, she wasn't. She was more or less half retired. She didn't
want any more work. I persuaded her, which wasn't very hard to do
because she adored the garden because she had planted it. So she was
just happy to be back with it.

Riess

What was the way you worked with Miss Worn?
particular day of the week?

Did she arrive on a

115

Roth: Yes, she would arrive in the old truck every say Thursday and I would
meet with her and we'd go through the garden bit by bit, every bit
of the garden we would go through, and discuss the planting.

Riess: Did she bring plant materials with her?

Roth: Yes, she would bring specimen things with her. And she always was
looking for the new things that were coming in. We tried a lot of
new things sometimes they didn't work.

She lived across the Bay, came in an old hat, [had] the sweetest,
dearest face. Everybody loved Miss Worn. But she in some ways was
hard to get along with because she was very opinionated and wanted to
do things her way. But as her way was always perfect, I didn't find
anything to argue about and so we were great friends.

Riess: How well educated was she as a horticulturist?

Roth: Oh, I think she had had training. I really don't know. I never knew
her until I bought Filoli and I had had her in the house to do
decorations. She worked — I mean if you wanted flowers done or your
table for a luncheon or dinner, you called her and she came and did it.

Riess: She would use your garden flowers?

Roth: Oh, yes, always if they could be used and then she would augment it.
You never have enough.

Riess: Did she discuss with you what you would have or did she more or less
have her ideas and —

Roth: Oh, she had her ideas. But she would ask you what you'd think.

Everybody always talks about why we didn't get pictures of the
things she did and have a book done. Why we didn't — because there
has never been anybody quite like her.

Riess: I have pictures of the wedding that she designed for the Robert Gordon
Sprouls' daughter when she got married at the President's House, and
the staircase is draped with della Robbia wreaths made with real fruit.

Roth: Oh, yes, they would be beautiful. Everything she did was beautiful.

She was always late. The guests were practically at the front
door and you were cleaning up the mess! [laughter] Always late!

She had lovely containers herself, some lovely things. I suppose
they had been given her. I have some of her things.

116

Riess: Did her sister come with her?

Roth: Once in a while. I did not know her sister very well.

Riess: They were both in this.

Roth: Yes, by the end of the thirties her sister was getting on and I don't
think she went out too much.

Riess: When Miss Worn came to decorate for a party, was she still in her truck
with her old hat or did she get herself up to look like a guest?

Roth: Oh, no, the old hat. She had the funniest hat. There's one picture
I have, I think, of Miss Worn, isn't there, and my gardener together?

Riess: Yes, that picture I have seen.

Roth: With the old hat on.

Riess: In fact, there are no pictures of these events?

Roth: No, there aren't any pictures. I never took any. Why? Why she didn't
take them. . .

Riess: Could you describe —

Roth: No, I couldn't. I really couldn't. I don't know. She always made the
flowers fit the room and the occasion. So it was like when you went
in the room, it just fitted.

Riess : So when you think back on it —

Roth: You don't realize that it was as good as it was. And she helped me at
Filoli a great deal in doing my flowers because at Filoli I did my
flowers once a week, every Friday, the complete house, and that took
me half past eight in the morning until half past twelve anyway, and I
picked the flowers the day before or I couldn't get it done because
in the living room I think I had six bouquets — in the living room
alone. Then in the library I always had five, and in the French room
two, and then in the back study where we sat maybe five or six. Then
in the hallways there were always three in the halls, and that takes
a lot of time.

But I did have help. I had someone helping me.
Riess: In the gathering?
Roth: Yes.

117

Riess: In the arranging also?

Roth: No, I generally picked the flowers. Well, the gardeners helped. Some
picked flowers. But also in fixing them, you have to have somebody
help. I generally had a houseboy or somebody help.

Riess: Did you have fragrance in these arrangements?

Roth: Oh, I think that is always important if there is any in the garden.
There isn't always.

Riess: Was Miss Worn working for anyone else in this neighborhood when you had
her?

Roth: No garden work, but she still did table decorations for parties, but

not for many people. Especially she did [them] for Mrs. Clark who had
a beautiful home in San Mateo.

Riess: What is her whole name, Mrs. Clark?

Roth: [pauses to recall] Mrs. Clark was a Tobin; Celia Clark was her name.
She has a perfectly beautiful home, but I think she left it to San
Mateo. Is it a library now?

Riess: I don't know.

I am interested in what your financial arrangements were with Miss
Worn. Did she work by the hour?

Roth: By the month.

Riess: Was she a good business woman?

Roth: [laughs] I would say she wasn't at all! She just — when I think what
I paid her and nowadays — really! No, money really didn't — she wasn't
cheap. I mean if she did a job, she would charge for it, but then
again, she wouldn't — it would be spotty, just depending on how she felt,
I guess.

Riess: Did she say anything, in your conversations with her, about Bruce Porter,
what the problem was between the two of them?

Roth: No, no, it was a very funny thing. I never heard what it was about.

It was about planting. Then he came down to see Filoli before he died
and was so happy. He wouldn't come down while I lived there. He never
came down, only after I left and he was so ill.

Riess: Who got him to come down?

118

Roth: I think Mrs. Arbegast, Mai, I think she did.
Riess : How did he like the place?

Roth: He loved it, he loved it, and he only made one recommendation, one

thing that he didn't like. I can't remember what it was now. But he
loved it. I think he had left us a lot of his manuscripts. I think
the daughter has put that over. What is his daughter's name? I
don't know.

It was something wonderful that he did, and you would have thought
he would be dying to see it completed.

Riess: Of course, because a garden is like a baby that you give up for adoption.

Roth: That's it!

Riess: All of these strong-minded people! How come all of these strong people?

Roth: I guess that's why they get things done.

Riess: Did Miss Worn have any particular connections to the University of
California?

Roth: She was very close to the University and brought many things from there,
like the dawn redwoods. She brought those from the University.

Riess: Did they go directly into the ground?

Roth: Yes, they went right in and they started growing immediately. They are
tremendous. My two that came were the very first ones that came over.

Riess: Was there any question about whether Woodside was a good place to
plant them?

Roth: I think they probably gave them to me to try them out. But we have
redwoods on our property, so I think they thought it could be good.
But I hadn't any idea they would be as big as they are. They are
tremendous.

Riess: Were there any more direct contacts with the University?

Roth: Oh, there were many. Many of my things are from the University.

Riess: Would that be through Miss Worn?

Roth: All through Miss Worn.

Riess: Can you think of any names of —

119

Roth: No, I can't, I can't. And you have to realize that my attentions were
not all directed to the garden, but when you have young children, you
are involved in other things. You are not free. When the children
are gone and married, then you are free to spend all of the time in
the garden you want to, but you can't very well do that when you have
a boy and two girls to bring up. So I depended a great deal on Miss
Worn.

Riess: Who else wandered through in those early days? Did Thomas Church?

Roth: Yes, he did once in a while. Many, many. Of course, people from
England — and I don't even remember their names — enjoyed the garden
because I always had it open to anybody that wanted to come.

Toichi DomotoM

Roth: Most of the material in the garden that Miss Worn brought came from
Toichi Domoto. What I mean is, the big things, the trees and the
camellias and the azaleas, most of these things came from Toichi Domoto
who has been for years one of our greatest horticulturists.

He is out of business now. He retired, so he's finished. But if
I wanted to know anything, I would ring Toichi up. He would come over
and he would meet with Miss Worn. And after she died, I used Toichi
entirely for information, to help me. He is tops. He is known all
over California.

Riess : Was he educated here?

Roth: I think here. I didn't know him when he was that age, but I am sure it
must have been here.

His father was here because during the war he was one of the
Japanese that had to be moved away, which was pathetic, because he
was one of our best citizens.

Domoto is in the same category as Miss Worn. I talk to him often
now. He is on a lot of these big boards. But he had to close his
nursery. He said he just couldn't get help. He had a tremendous place
right in Hayward and I guess the taxes must have been terrible because
he was right in the city. He still has the place. Once in a while
I call or go over to see if I can find some precious thing there.
But his brothers died and now he is alone and getting on in years and
he just couldn't do it.

Riess: Did he introduce you particularly to Oriental gardens materials?

120

Roth:

Riess;
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess :
Roth:

Riess:
Roth:

Riess

Roth:

Yes, well, when we moved in I wouldn't say the garden was really
completely finished. It still needed picking up. We had azaleas
but we didn't have enough azaleas, so you have to put in more. Then I
built up the wild garden which they had started as a wild garden. It
had maybe six camellias and there are probably over one hundred now.
I would say that three-quarters of the camellias at Filoli came from
Domoto's .

There has been so much hybridizing of camellias —

Well, every year they have all these new ones. I even have one named
after me, a Lurline, pink.

Did you have enough room at Filoli to continue to put in the new
specimens just year after year?

Yes, and then also we had a lot of trouble with the deer eating them.
Of course, when I moved in and I planted the fields for grass for my
horses, that made it really nice for the deer. [laughs] So the deer
increased and it ended up that we had to put in a very ugly wire fence.
The idea of Filoli was the lovely lawn and garden going into the beautiful
fields. But we had to give up that idea because the deer moved right
in.

Aren't there some hedge-like plantings that are —

Domoto had one azalea, I think it's called red ruby, and they didn't
seem to like that, but they liked everything else.

How about oleander. Do they eat oleander?

Oleander doesn't grown very well at Filoli. It's a bit too cold. And
they wouldn't fit in the garden as a hedge. There wouldn't be anything
in winter.

How did you meet Domoto?

Oh, I always knew him because my mother always had a garden and I always
knew him.

After Miss Worn left, I would like to have gotten Domoto. But
he had his own place and he made a lot of money and was well off. He
wasn't interested. He loves Filoli though.

As we have been talking, I have noticed that something in here smells
wonderful.

Something here? It is the iris. I've had lovely iris. I wish I had —
I just got back in time for the end. I have had one week of them only
and I love them so. What I do is order two or three very good ones
every year.

121

Riess: Do they naturalize?

Roth: Yes, they naturalize but, of course, after three or four years they

get a bit smaller, but these are pretty good ones. There is a new one
over there .

Riess: Do you order from catalogues?

Roth: Catalogues. These came from Oregon. Sometimes from Europe, different
places.

Riess: Did you read Katherine White's book, Onward and Upward in the Garden?
Roth: No, I haven't read that.
Riess: It is about garden catalogues.

Roth: Oh, they're marvelous and very useful for me. I get all of my horse
names from catalogues! I go all the way through and I pick out — I
have a whole bunch of names here that I picked out through the iris
catalogue which were great. They have a great imagination for names.

Riess: Name one.

Roth: Well, I can't think of one right now, but I just clip them out because
when you name horses you have to send in three and you don't expect
to use two of them. So you always have to have those extra names to
send in.

Leslie Thiringer

Riess: We haven't talked about Leslie Thiringer.

Roth: Now, Leslie is Hungarian. He was born in Hungary and went to college

there and got out during the war and hasn't been able to go back again.

Riess: I have him down as the head gardener, 1952 to '72. So it was after
World War II he came here.

Roth: That's it and that's after Louis died and I was lucky to get Leslie
because he was very knowledgeable, having really studied.

Riess: When he came, he didn't speak any English?

122

Roth: No, he didn't. His son is in Washington now. His son has bought him
a nice little house. Leslie is retired. His wife died. His son is
very high in — I guess our space program. A fine boy, just a great
boy, and he was a little tyke when he came.

Riess: How did Leslie work in?

Roth: Of course, he changed everything around.

Riess: A Hungarian among all of these Italians. How did that work?

Roth: It didn't work so well, but I had Leslie to depend on. The Italians
weren't as happy. They weren't half as happy! [laughs]

He managed. He worked himself. When the gardeners would go home,
the things he wanted to correct he would just go out and find the plot
and work until seven himself and kind of do the things that he couldn't
get them to do. Better than to argue about it, to go do it.

Riess: Was there any real mutiny?

Roth: No, they got along. Leslie was a jewel and a very well educated man.
So he was smart enough to cope with things.

Fruits, Flowers, Vegetables, Picnics

Riess: Was there a fruit and vegetable garden?

Roth: They had a big orchard. When we bought the place, the trees were just
little baby trees. I just don't think we have the climate where Filoli
is for an orchard that is varied — apples, yes, and persimmons. As a
matter of fact, they had two orchards because one orchard was an orchard
they leased out. They sold the apples. I had forgotten about that.

Riess: The Bourns did?

Roth: The Bourns, yes. But it is on the south side and it's quite warm.

But the orchard that is in the garden, forget it. I have just had no
luck with it. So gradually the trees died one by one and I made it half
into a picking garden and now I think all of the trees are out.

Riess: Were they dwarf or standard trees?

Roth: Beautiful dwarf trees. The dwarf apples in one part of the garden all
came from France and those apples are still growing, some of them. A
few I have had to replace but not many. They were imported from France
for the World's Fair at Treasure Island for the French Building.

123

Roth: Mr. Bourn had just arrived then [sic] and he purchased them and made
a whole allee of these dwarf apples with white iris underneath. It
was very beautiful really in the spring. Of course, some of them have
died — apples and pears.

We had a whole vegetable garden. I had a regular vegetable man
who just did vegetables. They came in every morning. There is nobody
better than Italian gardeners for vegetables — we have tomatoes and
artichokes and lettuce and the vegetables here. My gardener here is
Italian and he would be lonely if he didn't have vegetables, I'm sure.

Riess : At Filoli, whose job was it to pour over the seed catalogues?

Roth: I did, all of the seed catalogues. I did that. I still do it. Not
for Filoli, thank goodness! But I had a regular book and I knew how
many flats were needed for each bed each summer and winter. Pansies
we would probably plant, four types of pansies, violas and for Filoli
you do it in a big way, not a flat like I do here, so you have to write
it all down.

Riess: You wouldn't have used pansies in your arrangements though, would you?

Roth: Oh, yes, pansies are nice, but not in a big arrangement. In my big
arrangements I used things that would keep because you just — well,
things never kept a week and sometimes I would have to do them twice
a week, if you were having guests. But sometimes you could sort of
fix them up a bit.

For my birthday, what do you suppose my husband gave me? A golf
cart! Because the picking garden was so far from the house and, for
instance, when you pick roses you should put them in water and I would
carry buckets out to the rose garden and have to lug them back in. So
he gave me a golf cart. I have it here now. I got it for a birthday
fifteen years ago, I think, or sixteen.

I put my buckets in the cart, and I would fill them with water
and then pick my flowers and go from the flower garden to the road and
put the flowers in and then go in with the truck — with the golf cart —
and get somebody to help me unload it.

Riess: Are there any pictures of you in your golf cart with the flowers?

Ro th : No .

Riess: This is the most unpicture- taking family.

Roth: [laughs] I know, isn't it dreadful? I still have the golf cart outside!

124

Riess: Well, maybe we can have you pose in it for some pictures!
Did you picnic in the Filoli gardens?

Roth: We had loads of picnics. They were great. My husband was a great
picnic fiend, so we were always having picnic dinners.

Riess: Would you go to just any place in the garden?

Roth: No, we had a very pretty place to picnic by our tennis courts and we
had a grill there. So we used to go there, and it was twice as much
work as having dinner in the house. A picnic is! It is more work than
anything in the world.

Riess: Because you never can remember everything!

Roth: Well, that's it. You get over there and you've forgotten the

Worcestershire or something! [laughs] We would have to go all the
way back and it was a long ways .

Other Gardens

Riess: What other great gardens were there to visit on the Peninsula?

Roth: Well, I wouldn't think that there would be another. Filoli is a big
garden! [laughs] You have twelve acres of garden; that's a big
garden.

Riess: So there was nothing that was truly a celebrated garden.

Roth: No, I don't think so, except the really great garden here is Mrs.
[Starr] Bruce 's garden and she is in San Mateo.

Riess : Who is she?

Roth: She was a Welch, Andrew Welch's daughter. She has a very beautiful

garden. Hers is Japanese and it is beautiful and Miss Worn went there,
too, and she did quite a bit in her garden. It's different from my
garden. It isn't a mass of flowers. It's the Japanese style. To
this day it is a beautiful garden and it is being shown all of the time.

Riess: When you go around the country, do you visit gardens, Longwood and
so on?

Roth: Oh, yes, I go to all of the gardens that I can.

Riess: Did you come back with ideas that you wanted to implement?

125

Roth: Well, you always learn something, something in color or flowers,
plants, or something to try. The wild garden with the Bourns was
really almost nothing. I have done that all myself because I enlarged
that to twice its size. And the picking garden for flowers. Now
they have to put in an herbaceous border which was not in before and
as time goes on the garden is better than it was when I had it. It has
improved.

Riess: It is better now?

Roth: Yes.

Riess: Just because time is good for all gardens?

Roth: Yes, and because everybody with an education is working on it, so when
a tree dies they put in something better.

126

VII A TRIP TO FILOLI
[Interview 7: May 11, 1981]##

[En route to Filoli by car with Mrs. Roth and Kermit in the front
seat, Riess in the back seat, using the old route, Skyline Boulevard]

Roth: [speaking of Indian mounds on Filoli property] We found everything,
bodies, bones » The college here did the digging and they did it for
about three years, and they have a wonderful collection of things.
But we've stopped it now. The college claims it's very valuable
because the Indian ruins that they found there were from a very early
group. Years ago, when I first moved to Filoli, there was a big
mound, a huge mound, that they called the Indian Mound. Well, I didn't
know anything about it. Stanford asked if they could use it and I
gave them permission and so they took over. It was an Indian burial
ground. And right near that, you see, is this other part, and one of
the professors from the college had an idea because this was not a
mound, it was just flat, so they've been digging down, like tunnels.
And they brought their classes there and they seive all the soil.

Riess: It's interesting to watch.

Roth: Oh, very interesting, and the children [students] have gotten so much

out of it. But we stopped it finally because they decided it shouldn't
be done any further. And I think there was probably some comment
about the college here getting it all.

But this group of Indians were earlier than they had ever thought.
They knew the Indians that lived here in certain years , I suppose after
the missionaries came, but this was a very early group.

[passing turnoff to narrow, graveled road]
Riess: You used to drive down to Filoli on that little road?

127

Roth: It was the only road, the Woodside road. This road we're on is a new
road. Now there's a road through the back, over there, and that road
in the back is the original Filoli road.

[entering estate]

Kermit: Mrs. William P. Roth, [to gatekeeper]
Roth: Now, this is San Francisco property.
Riess: And what about these occasional plantings of pines?

Roth: Old Christmas trees. I planted all those and they've finally grown.
This one's so pretty; he's the last one I did.

Riess: Now, tell me every place you laid your hand upon the land.

Roth: I put in this fence, because I ran horses there, and sowed this with
hay, which made it very pretty. I never have time to work on these
trees here [stands of oaks, second growth]. They need work.

Riess: [as car turns in front of house] You have worked on these oaks.

Roth: Oh, yes, when you can. Now here's one that's dying — oh, no, it's just
the bugs. Now this is a blue spruce, and up there you see — there
should be a plaque. That's I don't know, something. It's given by the
County of San Francisco. And something to me.

Think how old these olive trees are. [to Kermit] Go in by the
kitchen.

Look at the size of these trees here. I want you to see these.
They're the oldest. Now originally, when we bought this place, this
was all a beautiful lawn. And you see the fence? I've had to put that
because we have to fence the garden in because of the deer — we get so
many deer. And this lawn we gave up during the war [lawn on east side
of the drive paralleling front of house] when we had to conserve. And
I think at some period they're going to start it again.

Look at the holly trees here. [turning around in front of
entrance]. [When the Bourns were here] the front door was just the
same, but I did all this planting. Really the Bourns only did the two
holly trees. The maples they planted. The rest of the planting I did
here.

Just look at the size of these yews, though,
difficult on account of they're so big now.

They are very

128

Riess:

Card:

[arriving at kitchen courtyard, talking to one of the gardeners]

Has it come of age, this garden at Filoli?
about replacing old plants]

[referring to comment

Yes, I think so. It's sixty years old now, and a lot of things are
showing their age — and this is about the time for replacement for a
lot of things — but right now everything is at its peak, and as large
as it's going to get. And it's looking better than a lot of people

have ever seen it. That's just time,
takes a lot of time.

But as Mrs. Roth says, a garden

The Garden Design

Roth: [Hadley Osborn arrives] Hadley, I'd like you to meet Mrs. Riess, from
the University of California. Maybe we could just step into the garden.
She asked me some questions the other day about the type of garden this
is , and I couldn ' t really answer .

Osborn: It's Filoli, that's the type of garden it is.

Bruce Porter designed the garden, and he very much did not like
the sort of informal gardens that were going up in California at that
time. He said the paths would meander, and they always looked as
though they had no reason for doing that. He felt that gardens should
afford a sense of protection and shelter and of course we're right
here in an undeveloped wilderness, and his feeling was that the
gardens should act as gracious outdoor rooms , which this sunken garden
does.

And as you can see they're really juxtaposed, right against the
wilderness. You look here and your eye just follows the grey of the
olives to the sunburst locust, which is that tree right there, and it
just goes on up the hillside, which is also Filoli.

There are a lot of 17th century garden elements that are embodied
in this, but there are a lot of ideas taken from later English gardens
also. They are predominantly formal. There is only one part of the
garden, which is the woodland garden, which is informal and has a few
of the meandering paths which were so much in vogue at that time.

Riess: Had Bruce Porter gotten his training in the east?

Osborn: I don't know. I do know that there was a gentleman that brought

together a circle of people, and he was the pastor of the Swedenborgian
Church, and there was a circle of people that admired the pre-Raphaelite

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Osborn: and like them they practiced in various media. I am told that Bruce
Porter's income came mainly from work he did in stained glass, and
it interests me that when you look at these you almost see stained
glass patterns in the designs. They were a circle of friends — the
gentleman who designed the house, Willis Polk, the gentleman who
did the murals in the ballroom, Ernest Peixotto, were all part of
this group. As I say, all of them practiced in various media. The
remarkable thing about this garden is not only that it is beautiful,
but that that Bruce Porter's design is still extant.

Mrs. Roth just did something incredible, and I'll say it while
she is right here, because nobody else does it, and that is, she kept
the gardens alive, she kept them vital, she enriched them with plant
material, but she didn't do what I would have done: I would have
made a terrible mistake, I would have started revising the gardens,
I'd have remodeled them, put things here and there to accommodate
plants. And yet Mrs. Roth kept them vital and alive and yet with
total respect to the original design. The only thing that was added,
really, was the swimming pool, on the other side of the hedge. And it
fits just beautifully. But I don't know of anyone else who has managed
to do that. Either they say, "Isn't this beautiful?" and pretty soon
the plants get old and out of scale and it just becomes kind of a
cemetery —

Roth: The only problem about the pool was the scale, which made it very
expensive. My husband kept saying, "Why do we have to have a pool
this big?" Well, we had to have it that big because we had that big
space there.

Riess: Who designed the pool?

Roth: Lurline Roth was the designer, [laughter]

Osborn: For the pool itself, I don't know, but the pool pavilion was done in
two stages. The side parts were done first, and I believe that was
Alex Yuill-Thornton, wasn't it, Mrs. Roth? Then the center part was
added to protect against afternoon winds, with the sliding glass doors.

Originally the gardens kind of stopped. Everything beyond the
hedge was open field, as you see beyond the terrace there, just
extended up to here.

Riess: And the yews?

Osborn: These we transplanted. Everybody told Mrs. Roth she couldn't do it.
[laughter]

Riess: Well, it is the extended view that is so marvelous.

130

Roth:

Osborn:

Riess:

Osborn:

Riess:

Osborn:

Riess :
Osborn:

As a matter of fact, they had intended apparently to put a pool in at
some period, so they built a pool house.

The pool house is on the other side of the yews. It's underneath
part of the tennis court. There are dressing rooms, there was a
boiler room, that sort of thing.

From where we stand, there are so many views. It seems enormously
complex. Is this the way the garden is supposed to be entered?

There are many ways of entering the garden, and they all work. This
long straight axis path is actually an extension of that long hall
and the dining room. And there is another path, which we call the
yew allee, which parallels it. So they are the organizing major
axes. But then within them, within the walled garden, there is a
series of very intricate formal designs. And I think it works much
better than most American formal gardens do because no matter where
you are you get pleasant vistas and new angles on things. Whereas
in many American formal gardens you have to look at exactly one spot
to see it work.

The center of the garden I always think of as being the walled
garden as you see it from the teahouse.

[referring to hedge at which they are standing]
hedge height?

Is this a traditional

Roth:

It's a little higher. It's gotten higher as the years have gone on.
We had a massive accident on Easter weekend; we lost a huge limb from
this oak. You can see the damage it did to this hedge. But we're
just going to cut it back, bit by bit and eventually we're going to
work this back to a slightly lower level.

You just inch it down?

Well, this accident gives us an opportunity for experimentation,
[laughter] We're going to do that area fairly severly, because we
have to do work on it anyway, and we're going to see how it works.
And if it does well, then we will do this one down to that level.

When I say bit by bit, I mean a section at a time. We take
enormous pride in maintaining these gardens immaculately, because
that's the way they work, if they are immaculate, and we hate to have
anything that isn't just so. So we don't like any major area with
major disruption at any given time.

I don't know why we don't plant more of those trees, they're such
pretty trees.

131

Osborn: The sunburst locust. It's such a beautiful tree. It's just starting
to green up .

Roth: I got that from the Wayside Gardens.

Osborn: That's magnificently placed again, Mrs. Roth.

Roth: I just stuck it in.

Osborn: Well, it's absolutely perfect. It's just starting to green out. You
see the color at the top, that's the golden color. Then it turns
green. It also colors in the fall, but it's not as fabulous as it is
in the spring.

Riess : I'm beginning to get all the good smells around here too.

Osborn: Mrs. Roth added a lot of plants that add fragrance, especially around
the house. I think it's one reason people love Filoli so much.

By the way, Mrs. Roth, I was in charge last week of a convention
of the American Association of Botanical Gardens and Arboretums and
I cannot tell you how many people told me Filoli was the most beautiful
garden they had ever seen.

Roth: I think it is. I'm afraid I'm biased. Everyplace you look is
beautiful.

Riess: What is the difference in intention and concept between this garden,
and a garden like Longwood? Can you answer that? Is there some
westernness here?

Osborn: I don't think it's necessarily a difference of its being western,

other than plant materials that are in it. I think the same sort of
concept was used. But I do think that because it's set in the middle
of a very wild and natural area, that Bruce Porter's idea of having
the garden provide protection was very important, the idea of the
walled garden, the hedges here, the sunken garden — that these were
places you could go into that were just eminently civilized.

Roth: [speaking of the background of the hills] And the beauty of it is
that it should always be that way because it is city property.

Osborn: Actually the garden underwent changes [earlier]. I recently got

early pictures that are dated, and initially they made some mistakes
in the walled gardens with their plantings — they tended to overplant
and had too much. And of course if you go in there now, it's just
beautiful, and clean. And so it has undergone revisions through the
years. But somehow the design works well enough that the basic
framework has always remained intact. And Mrs. Roth was just remarkable
in preserving it, and yet adding so many materials — the camellia

132

Osborn: collection which is massive, major, an historically important camellia
collection. So many of the magnolias, many of the rhododendrons, all
these things were added, and yet added so they fit, and they enhance.

[noticing birds] We have members of the Audubon Society coming
once a month now, and they not only count the numbers and species —
this is a major resource for them — and also they are documenting the
bird life around here so that if there are any changes in management
practices, we might notice.

Roth: I think it's amazing that the bugs have eaten the oak trees here, yet
where I live, my oaks have every leaf on.

Osborn: Since I've been here, Mrs. Roth, this is the first year that we're
going to have oak moths. But they are going to be here this year.

Roth: They've had them so many years, and they always say the oaks are going
to die, and they come back.

Osborn: You see, we're surrounded by oak woodlands, and it's just impossible
to [control it by spraying]. If they got very bad on one area, there
is a new spray which only hurts the oak moths and nothing else. It's
a disease that affects oak moths. And we might use that. But
basically it's something we'll live with.

In the Gardens ##

Roth: What's going to happen to the pomegranates? Do you think you'll have
to start new ones? They're getting oversized aren't they? I would
think you would have to go back to the original.

[walking along the dining room hall axis, south]
Riess : [looking at cineraria] They are perfect, each one a bouquet.

Osborn: Mrs. Roth always used to give her cineraria to the Strybing Arboretum
Society plant sale. I remember being down here years ago [Osborn
was formerly with Strybing Arboretum] and picking up cineraria.

Riess: [observes gardener spraying the rose garden]

Osborn: We don't have public tours on Monday. Any spraying or anything like
that that has to be done we do on Monday.

Riess: Are flowers still being grown for cutting for the house?

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Osborn: A few of the rooms in the house are furnished now, and as we do that
we have more use for floral arrangements. There is always a floral
arrangement in the tea house.

Riess: There is a Lurline Roth rose, isn't there?

Roth: No, I think that's one thing there isn't.

Osborn: We have a Lurline Roth rhododendron, but not a rose.

Roth: And in Hawaii we have something.

Riess: Do you do any hybridizing here?

Osborn: No, and I don't think we will. That's not something we would do. We

do get the new All-America selections each year and we get them donated.

Roth: It's a beautiful one this year.

Osborn: [looking at huge, sixty-year-old stone pines]

There was one over here that matched these two and it fell a year
ago last January, demolished this wall — I'm very pleased with the
restoration — and also the iron gate and so on. I called Mrs. Roth
the morning when we found out about it, and her first reaction was,
"Thank God there was nobody hurt."

Riess: Why did it fall?

Osborn: Well, there is a lot of weight on top. And this was a freak. It was
a massive storm. It happened late Sunday night. I heard it, but I
didn't know what it was. I'd been working in the office and it had
just been pouring. Old CaJfada Road was overwashed, and the lawns
were flooded, and I was afraid the culverts were plugged up, but they
were draining — it was just so much water pouring in.

And then I remember that the reservoir up the hill had overtopped
one year and caused a great deal of damage, so I drove up there, but
it was all right.

As I was coming down, I didn't see the lightning, but I heard
what I thought was thunder. There was a tremendous gust of wind and
I heard what I thought was a sharp crack of thunder and then the
rolling. Well, what it was was that one of the trees was absolutely
overladen, there was no support, the ground was sopping, it got hit
just right, and the crack I heard was when it fell and then just the
crown going over was what I thought was rolling thunder. It was
perfectly healthy. We have a round from it in the carriage house.
The roots were perfectly healthy.

134

Osborn: Of course we became concerned about these trees, but you see Mrs.
Roth through the years always had these opened up, there's always
good air flow.

Roth: I told you Miss Worn said to keep them like a bouquet.

Riess: Across the street from me in Berkeley, in the house where John Gregg,
who was the first professor of landscape architecture at Berkeley,
lived, are two great Italian stone pines that he planted from seeds
he picked up in the Borghese gardens on his honeymoon. They are not
as big as these, probably because they are on a hillside.

Roth: Of course these get too much water. I've already taken down two
gingkos because they got too big.

Riess: Were the stone pines here planted from seed?

Osborn: Yes, I'm told they were planted from a cone that was picked beside
the Appian Way. The one that fell, we counted the rings, it was
58 years old. It was planted in 1922, which was about the time the
walled garden was being developed.

Roth: [walking toward herbaceous border] It was a picking garden for me.
And these apple trees, these are the ones that came from the
Exposition at Treasure Island.

Good Morning, Emily, I'd like you to meet Miss Riess.
Riess: All along the path, people doing interesting things...

Osborn: We depend upon our volunteer labor. The glamorous part is done by
Emily. [conversation with Emily Brown]

Emily Brown did arrangements for this convention we had last
week, Mrs. Roth.

Oh, I love that blue salvia.
Roth: Isn't that beautiful. That is lovely.

Osborn: [looking at knot garden] It's due for another haircut fairly soon, but
the new pattern is working out very nicely on the north one, much
better than the old one did.

Roth: This [knot garden] was given by the Woodside Garden Club.

Osborn: [discussion of a large weed in the knot garden] I think one can take
that out, Emily, I don't think that adds to the pattern. [laughter]

135

Osborn: This knot garden has worked well from the beginning, with the

exception of the yellow. We had a chrysanthemum that froze out
every winter, and that's a yellow thyme in there, and I'm not sure
that that is going to work either. We may have to redo that. This
one [adjacent knot garden] we completely redid last year.

Riess: We? You work with the club.

Osborn: They provide the design, and we put it in, and they provide the funding
for it, for the labor and getting the plant materials.

One of the interesting things about Filoli as a garden is that
there are such a variety of hedging materials and it's again something
that you'd never see in an eastern garden. Even though they could do
it, but somehow it hasn't been done. But we have a copper beech hedge
here, the customary laurel hedge, several holly hedges, the rose-of-
Sharon hedge here.

Riess: The California poppies in that distant field?

Osborn: We helped nature there. We plant wild flowers, and we are restoring
that as an orchard, bit by bit. Down at the lower end of that are
daffodils that have been naturalized over the years. Absolutely
lovely in early spring.

Riess: Where do you get your bulbs?

Osborn:. Our biggest bulb order, and our most expensive, is tulips, but of
course they are so beautiful. We order those each year. The
daffodils we order a few each year for pot displays, and then we
naturalize them and they will come back again and again.

We plant the tulips on close centers, six- inch centers, with the
result that you get a really nice effect. But we can't [save them
from year to year], they need much more winter dormancy, and the cost
of refrigeration would be way too much.

Roth: That [area] used to be the vegetable garden.

Osborn: And it is again, by the way. Those of us on staff, Mrs. Roth, are
in free time putting in some vegetables.

Roth: Oh, good.

Riess: That bench with the carved design?

Osborn: Yes, that bench, and we have more, was given to Mrs. Roth in honor
of her last birthday, by some friends. Given to us in celebration
of the birthday.

136

Riess: Looks like you have an adequate supply of bees.

Osborn: Oh, more than adequate. We had some bees swarming in the upstairs
sitting-room, Mrs. Roth, by the porch.

[Mrs. Roth leaves the walk, and Osborn and Riess go on]

Osborn: [in response to Riess comment about Mrs. Roth's pleasure in seeing

the current state of Filoli] Yes, she visits often. I've discovered
that if I come down here for the newspaper or something I'd better
be clean-shaven and presentable.

This yew-allee lawn is new. It's going to be ready for its first
mowing very soon.

Riess: You had to replant it?

Osborn: The initial tours just completely wiped it out, and the watering

system broke down. The tours are now going to have an overlook on it.
It's such a narrow lawn, you can't have people walking through it
and maintain it.

You know, all the time Mrs. Roth lived here, she was tremendously
generous about use of the property for garden clubs. (The first time
I saw Filoli I was in charge of a convention of the American
Rhododendron Society and Mrs . Roth very generously provided access to
the gardens for that.) As a result it's been much easier to maintain
this as a public property because people thought so well of Filoli.

This [wild garden] is the only informal part of the garden.
Rhododendrons are out now, azaleas a little earlier, and the dogwoods
are just going over, and again, a lot of camellias.

Riess: The oaks for a canopy.

Osborn: This is all second-growth oak-madrone woodland, right in here. The
major virgin oaks are those huge specimens next to the house.

Riess: What is your position and title here?

Osborn: My title is executive director of Filoli Center. Filoli Center is a
local non-profit corporation. The central portion of this was given
to the National Trust. We have a fifty-year lease with the National
Trust to preserve, maintain, and provide for public benefit. And
there's a local board of trustees. The founding president of that was
Wally Sterling, Dr. Sterling, who was president of Stanford for years
and years, the glory years of coming to greatness. The quality of
people that are associated with Filoli is simply very high and that is

137

Osborn: again because of the tradition of public service that the Roths had
while they owned Filoli, and if you wish to develop it as a public
garden you can ask somebody like Wally Sterling to do it, and he'll
do it.

Riess: What is your training? Are you a landscape architect, or horti
culturist or some such?

Osborn: My academic degrees are in English literature, but I became involved
in the administration of public gardens many years ago, just by
accident, not planning.

[looking at petals of camellia across the path] The gingkos in
the fall will shed their leaves all at once, and it's just a beautiful
golden carpet.

Roth: [meeting Osborn and Riess again] Now there are our two University of
California trees.

Osborn:
Riess :
Osborn:

Roth:
Osborn:

Riess:

Roth:

Osborn:

The dawn redwoods .
So pale.

They just unleafed. They get darker. They are very nice specimens.
Actually they have very nice fall color. I always loved the name. It
fills the mouth, Metasequoia glyptostroboides.

These are the bricks I told you were made to order for
Mr. Bourn.

We had trouble when we had to match bricks on that [restored section
of] wall.

[discussing mounds of snail repellent on new pansy beds] Of
course interestingly enough most of our plant damage is from birds.
The birds hide in the hedges and then come out. We put cages over
the ranunculas .

There's an oak that's been given a lot of help,
back of the house]

[west end of lawn at

Help! It's been treated like a baby. Every year they said it was
going to die, and every year it lived.

[discussing major pruning in the oaks] Mrs. Roth always had an opening
in the shrubbery as you crossed the bridge, and it had grown over and
she suggested to me that we have a "window" so we finally went down
there and looked around and of course she's absolutely right. It's
marvelous as you come in to get that one glimpse of that beautiful
field and the redwood in it.

138

Roth: The original idea was the lawn and the little brick wall, right into

the field. But in those days they didn't have enough planting to have
enough deer [to be a nuisance]. And the only thing the deer won't
eat is red ruby azalea. [laughter]

Osborn: Any plants you see in the courtyard the deer won't eat. There is

no fencing around that. Otherwise, either through walls or through
fencing we keep the deer out. We lost the limb on this oak shortly
after I came here and I was too dumb to understand that it lowered
the fence enough so that the deer could jump over, so that we had deer
in here for about two nights. And they do incredible damage.

Roth: This is an interesting hedge. It's all little strips of a hedge,
[below part of terrace wall that supports citrus in pots] Those
Chinese pots were here. These pots are ordinary, but we get them
made to order so they are all that shape.

This is a difficult place. This is a common rhododendron, but
it grows well there. It gets too much sun. We had an oak tree in there
before.

The people that we have working here, they're all people that
love the garden. Don't you have that feeling, as you walk around?

In the House

Riess: [in house, walking through restored rooms] What is the arrangement
with the Getty Museum? [referring to the massive mirrors, etc.
that Osborn identifies as being on loan]

Osborn: The initial loan is for five years, but the intent is that it will
be a permanent loan. We also have things on loan from the San
Francisco Museum.

I'd like to tell you a story about Mrs. Roth. We were down in the
[museum] basement looking over things, and the head of the Fine Arts
Committee is a gentleman named Ted Griffith, who is the owner/operator
of Regency House on Jackson Street, and he is estimating the length
of something and he said, "I think that's six feet." Mrs. Roth's
daughter Lurline said, "No, no, no, that's eight feet." Mrs. Roth look;
at it and she says, "I think that's just a couple of inches over seven
feet." It was seven feet, two inches. [laughter]

Roth: [looking at rug given to carpet the room] Now this is a good deal

like the old rug I had here, better. The lights are from the Getty?

139

Osborn: Yes, the mirrors and the consoles are Getty, the tapestries from the
de Young, the Italian credenza is from the de Young.

[Riess and Roth settle into what was the game room to talk further]
[Osborn mentions Indian burial mounds and the diggings]

Riess: Why do you think twenty years from now it will be less disturbing to
dig there?

Osborn: It's true. You find out new things. The early archaeologists, they
disturbed dust that would now tell us a great deal. You know in
Sweden, the old tombs, it's just the law, you can only open one every
twenty year period, to take advantage of new technology of excavation.
It [Indian mound] is a particularly interesting site because it was
abandoned before there was any contact with western civilization.

H

Roth: [in response to question about how the room Riess and Roth are in was
originally furnished, and where trophies are kept]

I had large cabinets made for my great big silver trophies, so
they were always behind glass. I had one, two — four large cabinets.
They were absolutely filled wi-th trophies, filled to the brim. But
I've given them now to museums, and some of them I sold with the sale.

Riess: They were solid silver?

Roth: They were all solid silver, because in the old days they didn't give
plated trophies. They were really beautiful trophies. Some of them
are in the museum in Louisville. Some of them I've given to
Missouri. Then I've given them away. But the room was really quite
a thing for people to see, and where I'd won them, and so on.

Riess: And in this room, the deer head. Was that a trophy?

Roth: The deer head: there were two, and when we left the house my son

said he'd like to keep this one. (These were deer that were shot in
Ireland at the Lakes of Killarney.) Bill wanted to keep this. Then
after keeping it he didn't want it, and it's still here. Well, then
I gave the other one to Mr. [Billy] Vincent. And he had to carry it
back to Ireland. [laughs] I think it was a bit of an ordeal. I
offered this one to him too, but he doesn't seem to want it. And I
think we'll leave it here — the Irish deer. You can't shoot deer here.
You see, this is a reservation.

Riess: It was interesting to tour the ballroom with Mr. Osborn. When you gave
your beautiful parties did you cover or drape the walls, the murals?

140

Roth: Oh, we never put anything on the walls in the ballroom. That we

always left as it was. It was the halls that we decorated, and then
we took the center court in front of the house and tented it in, and
then took the windows out of the ballroom on the side, and put ramps
right outside. So we made a new big room in the courtyard, and then
we used this [the north end] for the entrance. No, the ballroom walls
have never been touched.

The Parties: Tony Duquette

Riess : [artist and designer Tony Duquette had been discussed off tape earlier]
Just where were Tony Duquette's tapestries then?

Roth: All down the hall, and in the entrance hall, and in the tent — which
was the whole courtyard.

The debut parties I gave were really different from most peoples'.
They were really beautiful. And Tony Duquette did most of them, and
he did really marvelous things. And Miss Worn did too.

Riess: I've read about a party where the hedges were sprayed white and there
was blue gauze, with deer painted on the gauze.

Roth: I think that's the one Bella Worn did. That was marvelous. Tony did
two. You might write him and ask him to write a little something
about that.*

People still talk about those parties, because he did really
marvelous things. And we grew all the flowers for them specially and
they were really beautiful.

Riess: One of the parties was the year your daughters came out?
Roth: No, they were both granddaughters.

Riess: When Tony Duquette and you were putting a party together, how much
time went into the planning?

Roth: Oh, last minute, he'd do it all the last week. But everything would
be made at home, at his place in Los Angeles — Pasadena I guess. He'd
bring things made.

Riess : How did you find him?

Roth: Oh, everybody knows Tony. He knows everybody in San Francisco.

*App ended

141

Riess: And there was no one in San Francisco who could put together these
spectacular parties like Tony could?

Roth: No, not the same. He has done this lovely thing in Los Angeles now —
I must go to see it.*

Riess: When the parties were over, what happened to all the things that he
had created?

Roth: Then came the big trucks the next day. I always had to send all of
my furniture out to Bekins [Storage Company] while Tony had all his
things in. And the next day we got his things out — that took a couple
of days .

Riess: Describe one of the parties, would you?

Roth: Well, one year it was the sunflowers. This whole hall was a hedge of
sunflowers, all in bloom, all the way down. And those I had to plant —
all summer we were raising sunflowers. Then they were all cut and
brought in and put in like a hedge. Then one party he had a beautiful
blue wooden boat in the pool, not the swimming pool, but the pool by
the dining room. That must have been for Lolly Menzies. Bren bought
that and has it in her house. It's very pretty.

Riess: A real boat?

Roth: Oh, it was floating in the water. Not too big, though. Bren has it
on her wall in the breakfast room now, leftover from the party.

Riess: How did you plan the ideas? Did he think it up and then tell you?

Roth: Generally it was a surprise. Well, he'd say, "I'm going to use a

tapestry..." He made tapestries once and then put real flowers like
garlands in the hair, like real flowers.

Riess: Real woven tapestries?

Roth: Oh, yes, sure, woven.

Riess: Wouldn't you like to have kept them?

Roth: Well, I couldn't put the real flowers in. It was enough to take care
of them for the night. I think he still has those. And I think he's
using something like that in his decoration now, from the book I saw
of his. You know Tony's colors are so good. And he is meticulous in
following everything through. So that's why I really had to get my
furniture out, because everything we had went.

*"The City of Our Lady Queen of Angels," at the California Museum of
Science and Industry, March through August 1981, was a tribute to
Los Angeles 's bicentennial.

142

Riess : And who catered the parties?

Roth: Oh, my Chinese cook. He managed. Unfortunately now he's older than
I am and deaf and blind, so he can't cook anymore. But he was the
most wonderful cook. Oh, my present cook did one party; Marie Claire
did one.

Riess: Can you remember other parties?

Roth: For one we used leis from Hawaii, pikaki leis, and they were hanging
on a tree, and the tree fell over. I remember that! Just before
the guests arrived.

Riess: You pointed out the Christmas trees you had planted, as we came in.

Roth: Yes, [at Christmas] I always had two potted trees by the front door as
you came in, with lights on them. The one inside had to be so big,
with the ceiling [so high] — an eighteen-foot tree.

Riess: You didn't cut them from the property, did you?

Roth: No, I find it better to buy them. The same man always cut them, and
he knew the house. And we always had a small Christmas tree in this
window [of the game room] here. And a couple upstairs.

Riess: Did you use any decorators here?

Roth: [Mostly] I left the house as it — well, the ballroom curtains have
never been changed. And neither have the ones in the French room.
The library I have changed, and these I have changed maybe three or
four times, because this room gets a lot of afternoon sun and the linen
fades.

United Nations Site Consideration

Roth: The only time anything has ever been put on the walls of the ballroom
is when they had the pictures blown up of Filoli when the mayor had
the luncheon here when they were selecting a site for the United
Nations. You see, this was the number one site. They all met out
here and Mr. [Roger] Lapham was then mayor.

Well, naturally we were against it. You didn't want to be put
out of your home! Roger said he'd help us all we could, if we'd let
him have the luncheon here. So we had the luncheon, and fortunately
it was the worst day you ever imagined. It rained so hard that

143

Roth: everything was just flooded, and all the writers, the media, from

the east, from Philadelphia, Washington, and New York, thought this
was the worst place they had ever seen, thought it was just dreadful,
which was very lucky.

And they had — it just made me sick — they had all the blown-up
pictures of what it would look like when finished, tacked along the
wall of the ballroom. Which was the most pathetic sight!

Riess: Were you the hostess for that event?

Roth: No, I wasn't even invited to the luncheon. I was supposed to be out
of sight.

Riess : Why did they think they could appropriate it?

Roth: They can. Roger said he couldn't stop them if they decided. But I

think most of the foreigners — the English and French loved the house —
but some of the other countries would like a place that was gayer.
There was nothing to do around here, particularly, whereas in New York
they could really enjoy New York.

Riess: I thought you were speaking of this house being chosen as the location
for the conferences, but you meant for the headquarters?

Roth: This was one of the sites. I think they selected three or four.
Riess: Any others in the Bay Area?

Roth: No, they liked this because they could control this and security
would have been easy to take care of.

Riess: Was it known generally, that this, Filoli, was being considered as
the UN headquarters site?

Roth: Yes , oh yes.

Riess : Was there a hue and cry from people?

Roth: No, the hue and cry was from Lurline and Bill! I really cried! I

couldn't stand the thought. Imagine, the garden would have been — well,
the whole thing, it's all turned out for the best.

144

Concluding Remarks

Roth: I really think the feeling of this place, more than anyplace in the

east, the people that work here enjoy it so much. I don't think they
have that in any place in the east. I'm sure they're all paid workers
[at estates in the east] and these aren't all paid workers. Mrs.
Brown [Emily Brown] is one of our great horticulturists. And here
she does this just on her own time one day a week. And to think what
she lends to the garden, because she knows so much! Just a gardener
can't do what Emily can do, and she loves it!

I run into people that I don't know at all and they'll say, "Oh,
we work at Filoli, and we enjoy it so much. I can't tell you how we
love it." They all enjoy working here.

Riess: A lot must be how it is managed.

Roth: Oh, Hadley, he's marvelous. We're so lucky to have Hadley, really
lucky.

Riess: Interesting that you have avoided, or been spared, the people who
would have advocated changing the gardens.

Roth: Well, there has been that too, but that has fallen by the wayside now.
It's all fallen into a working routine. The beginning was a little
difficult, but we've worked a little in the background, and I think
it has worked out well.

Riess: When I spoke with Hadley he said how important it was that you had
established such good relations with the garden clubs and the club
members.

Roth: Well, I've been on the board of both garden clubs. See, at Filoli

I wasn't in the Woodside district, and I'm not in Hillsborough here.
So for that reason I was on the board of both garden clubs, which made
it nice.

Riess: Are the two clubs competitive?

Roth: I think so. I think most garden clubs are a bit competitive. Here
it has worked out very nicely. The knot garden, which Woodside did,
and the herbaceous border, which Hillsborough paid for. And there
has been a great deal of money put in by very generous people.

Riess: And the knowledgeable people in those groups?

145

Roth: Mrs. Brown couldn't be more knowledgeable. She's Hillsborough Garden
Club. And then we have the same from Woodside, Mrs. Schilling. Mrs.
Schilling did the knot garden, she did the drawing.

Riess: Hadley mentioned the Audubon Society. Did those groups come when you
lived here?

Roth: No. And you can't open up a garden [to the public] unless you know
what you're doing. You can't take a tour through and have the
gardeners have all the hoses out that day. So I didn't have too

many tours.

Riess: But you are pleased with how it is open and how it is being handled
now.

Roth: Oh, perfectly happy. I think every day I come I'm lucky to know that
it has turned out so well. As I said, in the beginning it was very
difficult. To get started, you can move in and ruin everything
easily .

Did you know that Filoli is booked up through next August already
for tours? They have really done very well.

I worry a bit about the house. You see, I think of the house as
I've lived in it and then when the house is empty you get kind of
confused really when you start to put things in again. If the things
aren't the things that you've lived with — I don't want it to become
completely a museum. It could be with the museum things, but a
livable museum. I think of it as a home, not a museum, and naturally,
when everybody gives you things, you're going to have a museum. You
can't help it. But when I die, everything in the house in Hillsborough
that was in Filoli, if they want it, they will have it.

Transcriber: Michelle Stafford
Final Typist: Keiko Sugimoto

146

TAPE GUIDE — Lurline Matson Roth

Interview 1: September 22, 1980 1

tape 1, side A 1

tape 1, side B 14

Interview 2: October 6, 1980 24

tape 2, side A 24

tape 2, side B . 37

Interview 3: October 20, 1980 42

tape 3, side A 42

tape 3, side B 53

Interview 4: November 13, 1980 61

tape 4, side A 61

tape 4, side B 76

Interview 5: December 17, 1980 91

tape 5, side A 91

tape 5, side B 102

Interview 6: May 4, 1981 112

tape 6, side A 112

tape 6, side B 119

Interview 7: May 11, 1981 126

tape 7, side A 126

tape 7, side B 132

tape 8, side A 139

147

A SPEECH BY LUELINE ROTH COONAN

TO THE DOCENTS IN TRAINING AT FILOLI,

September 30, 1980

I want to apologize if I am a little weary this morning. We've been one
full week at a marathon in Reno. We've been experiencing the quarter horse
futurity up there. We had a horse, and our whole family went up, my mother
and everybody. We got in early this morning — but our horse made it into the
finals! [laughter] So if I forget a few names and a few dates, please bear
with me.

I am really happy to give you a little of the background of our family life
at Filoli. During the years I lived here, I developed a great attachment for
the garden and for the house itself. I am sure there are many of you that may
regard it as a museum-like house, but for me it was always a very wonderful and
happy home.

There were five of us in the family. My mother — her maiden name is
Lurline Berenice Roth — and my father (I have a picture of him), his name was
William Phillip Roth, and a brother who was named after my grandfather,
William Matson Roth, and a twin sister named Berenice. Because she received
my mother's middle name, and because I was the first born, I received her first
name, Lurline. Don't be surprised as you go through the garden and think
you're seeing double, because she is a decent here, too, and looks very much like
me.

My grandfather was born in Lysekil in Sweden in 1849. When he was just a
small boy, his parents died accidentally. But like most orphans, he developed
a self-reliance. He used to watch the ships as they came and went from his
native land. When he was only ten, he shipped out on a ship called the Aurora
and was a handy boy. He received his education as he went along.

My mother often remarks about the cat-o'-nine [tails] which was a whip
that was used for harsh discipline. He [grandfather] told my mother that as
a little boy, he always used to run to his job to impress everybody that he
knew what he was doing.

When he arrived in New York, there were stories of the Gold Rush. He
eventually went on the Bridgewater, which was the ship that took him around
the Horn to San Francisco. That time was the time, of course, of the Gold
Rush; it was on everybody's mind. But my grandfather's love was still the
ships and the sea. So his first job was on a coal barge that took him around
San Francisco Bay and up and down the Sacramento River. It was during this
time that he developed friendships with the two Spreckels brothers, Adolph
and Theodore Spreckels. He often sailed with them on their yacht, which was
called the Lurline.

148

Because of this friendship, and because of his affection for the name
Lurline, he named his first brig (which is that ship over there) the Lurline.
He later named a second Lurline, which was a steamship, the Lurline. There
were two more ships to follow and today actually one of the giant container
ships is called the Lurline. So because of his affection for this name, he
named his daughter (which is my mother) Lurline.

Captain Matson was especially interested, of course, in establishing the
Matson Navigation Company, and he also was founder of the Honolulu Oil
Corporation. His life was dedicated to both passenger and tourist service to
the Islands. He was the first in many things. He was the first to have a
radio, the first to have cold storage, the first to have steamships. He
actually did a tremendous job in developing the passenger service. In 1914,
he passed away.

My grandmother's name was Lillie Low. She was of Scottish descent and
she was born in Brooklyn. She was on her way to Hilo to teach at one of the
plantations there and she actually sailed on the brig Lurline. It was there
that she met my grandfather and their courtship started and they were later
married.

My father was born as a citizen of the Kingdom of Hawaii and later — I
believe it was 1898 when actually Hawaii became a territory of the United
States — he became an American citizen. He was sent to the Oakland High School,
and from there he attended Stanford University, and returned to Honolulu to be
a member of a brokerage firm. He met my mother on one of her trips to the
Islands and they were married in 1914.

After my grandfather died in 1917, my father became president of Matson
Navigation Company, and later chairman of the board. My father was really
largely responsible for encouraging tourist trade to the Islands and also for
creating the white ships which not only went to Hawaii but to New Zealand and
Australia. He always felt because the ships were so fine and they were
building better and better ships, that they should have a beautiful hotel in
Honolulu and he built the Royal Hawaiian Hotel. Actually, the National Trust
[for Historic Preservation] is very interested in preserving this hotel today;
there was talk of it being demolished for new high-rise buildings, but at a
recent board meeting I believe that they mentioned that they were becoming very
interested in this. My father's career life was dedicated to Matson.

We moved from our former Woodside home, which is called Why Worry Farm,
when we purchased Filoli in 1937. The house was actually sold, but the stables
are still in operation today and my mother attends many horse shows throughout
the United States. She is still considered one of the outstanding horsewomen
in the country. She managed to assemble an outstanding collection of horse-
drawn carriages which are on display here at Filoli. This collection was
originally owned by the Bourn family and came into my parents' possession when
they purchased Filoli. At the time, they were in complete disrepair. I have
a picture here showing the phaeton. This picture was taken at the Devon Horse
Show, I believe. This was taken at a later time, but that is the phaeton that
you see here in the carriage house.

149

She was very fortunate in employing a mechanic that had worked with the
original Brews ter Carriage Manufacturers. They were considered the finest
manufacturers here and she had them completely refitted and restored to their
original condition. They could actually be used for road use. She later
gave this whole collection to the San Mateo County Historical Museum and they
were kind enough to loan us this collection, as Timmy [Gallagher] told you the
other day, that we have here. There are still more at the museum, if any of
you are ever interested to see them.

Mother still maintains another collection, which she keeps at Why
Worry Farm, and she has sent many carriages to the American Saddlehorse Museum
at Louisville.

My mother owned and lived in Filoli for a period of nearly thirty-eight
years and, as you know, she gifted the house and garden and a portion of the
land to the National Trust, which was the thirty-nine acres, the original
package. She also gave it with an endowment, and this endowment was to assist
the National Trust with its properties.

Then she later that year gifted the eighty-six acres, which is called
Parcel B, which you see on the north side here. She gifted that to the
National Trust with the intent that she would will or give that to them at
some future date. Then the remaining 528 acres was actually given to Filoli
Center. They originally purchased it and then about three years ago she had a
change of heart and she decided to reimburse Filoli Center for the price they
paid at that time for the 528 acres. So now the piece is entirely preserved.

At that time — my father had died in 1963 — she was living here alone and
we didn't feel as a family that it was safe for her to live here any longer.
Although she had several firm offers to purchase Filoli, it was her decision
to give it to the National Trust so that people, like yourself, could enjoy
it, and it's been a very happy experience for her, too. My father often
enjoyed walking through the garden. In fact, he enjoyed Filoli every bit as
much as my mother. Of course, he was the businessman so he didn't have the
actual running of the garden. But in the mornings he often would walk through
the gardens and chat with the Italian gardeners that we have and see the
progress of the garden.

Louis Mariconi, who was the head gardener at that time, came to work for
Mr. Bourn in 1915 and stayed over fifty-five years until his death in 1965.
He would often see that my father had a bachelor button to wear in his lapel.

My father loved dogs. He was quite a huntsman, and the kennels are still
behind the decent parking lot. My mother had her poodles and, of course, they
were members of the family and allowed to be in the house.

My mother had many hobbies, and one of them was her birds. She converted
the sleeping porch that you see upstairs. Originally, it was built for Bren
and myself, but it didn't work out because it was over the garage here. So
later she converted that into her aviary. She had amazing birds and very rare

150

ones from Africa, and a shama, beautiful song birds, and I especially remembered
in her bedroom she always kept a mynah bird. This bird would mimic my mother
exactly. She would follow the dogs and whistle and call us [laughter] and it
was very confusing. Many of us didn't know whether it was Mother calling us
or the birds! [more laughter]

In the den, the back sitting room that you see here, we had the little
Spanish finches. This is something that I miss today greatly at Filoli,
because when you walked in you could always hear either the song birds or the
little finches, and to me it added a great cheerfulness to the house.

In the evenings, when my father came home from work, we often walked to the
north gate. This was a daily trek that we always did. As you know, my mother
had her foals and mares in the fields down there, and it was fun to watch them.
In those days, the deer would come out of the hills and join the foals in the
same field. When I drove up today I noticed the willows on the right side,
which were always cut down, are beginning to grow up now, but you could get a
lovely vista view. If you remember Timmy's first pictures of that valley, you
could see to the mountains far more clearly than you can today. We often looked
for the — I used to say Canadian but I am now corrected — Canada geese. It was
very exciting watching them coming as they migrated from the north to the south.
In those days, I believe, we had many more. They came in great flocks — two to
three thousand of them. Sometimes my father got a little annoyed because he
had just planted oat hay and they would come down and sweep it all up in one
swoop and he had to replant it a second time.

In the evenings also we attended — I am sure many of you have been there
already — the barbecue area which is up behind the tennis court, and this was
great for family affairs because my father was an especially good cook and he
enjoyed his new recipes and it was a perfect place for him to practice on the
family up there. It was under the trees. It was by the tennis court and near
the swimming pool so we just had lots of pleasure up there and I am very happy
today that they are going ahead with the plans to change this into a luncheon
place, because it's a perfect place.

My mother really is a knowledgeable horticulturist and she received the
distinguished service cross from the Garden Clubs of America for her collection
and propagation of plants and for the maintenance of the Lurline B. Roth
gardens, as they are now known. (That is all that section in the walled
garden.) During the period of both the Bourns and my family, Bella Worn
supervised the planting of the garden. This amazing woman was getting on in
age, but when my mother came here it wasn't easy for her to take on such a
large garden as this, and Bella Worn supervised the planting of the garden.
She carefully showed my mother and instructed her on all the plants of the
garden and made her feel that Filoli was her own.

After Bella Worn died, she [mother] continued to follow the annual color
of the garden, changing from the pansies and the violas in the winter to the
pelargoniums and petunias in the summer, and then again the bulbs in the
spring. Mother had a little black book which she always kept, and she ordered
all her seeds. She kept a record of every plant that was planted.

151

I remember my mother mentioning Bella Worn's advice to her about the stone
pines. (As you know, we lost one last year, but we still have one remaining.)
She said, "You must always prune these like a bouquet of flowers." I always
thought that was a wonderful saying. Together they planted the area around
the swimming pool. Bella Worn died just after the Diamond Jubilee and she
was doing her last — she did all of the decorations at the Palace Hotel and my
mother said that she always came in" this old Ford truck and she worked right
up to the end. So she was really a great addition to Filoli.

During the development of the garden, my mother added many rare and unusual
plants to the garden. I especially remember the Magnolia campbelli in the
courtyard. This beautiful tree was given by the Strybing Arboretum to my
mother, and if you've ever seen it in mid-February , all of a sudden these beautiful
white blossoms come on the tree, and they look like white doves before the'
leaves appear. This lovely tree takes almost fifteen years before it has its
first bloom, so it's a long, patient wait. She also planted the Dawson in
the courtyard she planted all of that area there.

Then I especially remember around 1950 when the two Dawn redwoods were
planted behind the east wall. As you know, these magnificent trees were
discovered in China and they were brought here. These were among the first
that were brought here. They were given by the University of California to
Bella Worn for Filoli.

During the redevelopment of the garden, she also collected as many of
the Camellia reticulatas that were available. Most of these came from Toichi
Domoto's nursery in Hayward, which is a very famous nursery. She planted
these in the woodland garden and in the walled garden to give a great mass of
color. If you walk through the little camellia lane there you will notice
the beautiful tree peonies. She also planted these. and the Domoto brothers
were especially pleased to develop the yellow peony there. At their feet, she
placed the little planting of the lily-o f- the- valley .

The woodland garden had to be completely redone. It was discovered that
it was full of oak root fungus and the whole garden had to be replanted except
the section next to the tennis court.

Of course, she loved her rose garden. She planted that and she spent

many, many hours dead-heading the rosebuds. In fact, one of the worst

worries she had after Filoli was given to the National Trust [was] who was
going to dead-head the roses. [laughter]

There were many plants that were planted at Filoli that weren't always
successful. Especially, the deer ate some of them and it was discovered that
the Azalea 'Hinodegiri' was one that did very well, and the deer didn't seem
to bother [it] .

152

Another one of my mother's favorites was 'Ward's Ruby.' This azalea
became very popular in the 1915 San Francisco Exposition and she loved these
azaleas. They could also withstand the heat exposure on the west side of the
house. When you walk through the gardens, you will notice great drifts of
these two plants together.

She opened the house for many charitable and botanical groups, and it
was always open to her friends. My mother was very particular that the garden
always look very neat. Whenever there was a tour, she was out with her little
basket touring the garden, collecting all of the blossoms off the paths.

Leslie Thiringer is a name you don't often hear about. He was our head
gardener for over twenty years. He came to this country from Hungary. He was
of Hungarian descent, and during the time of the communists he had to leave.
So he and his wife came to California. Somehow Leslie got in touch with me.
He was looking for a job as a gardener. I knew that there was a position
available here at Filoli and so he was hired as a gardener. Leslie didn't
speak a word of English and he didn't have much of a horticultural background,
but he was self-taught. He put himself through hort school and it wasn't
long before he became head gardener here. The amazing thing about Leslie is
that his speech was never too developed, and with all the Italian gardeners, I
don't know how they ever had a conversation! [laughter] It seemed to be
mostly a waving of the hands. Everything got done. He was a marvelous head
gardener. Many people will still remember Leslie because he had a charm and he
could convey to the people who came through the garden — it didn't matter who
they were — but they just loved Leslie and then they loved the garden more.

I just hope — and I emphasize this many times — that when you go through the
garden, I hope that you are going to be able to convey that feeling of Filoli,
because Filoli should be enjoyed and it shouldn't be something that you just
feel that you are forced to remember every name. I think it's amazing (and I
must remark at this time) that during the thirty-eight years that my family
lived here we only had two head gardeners. We only had Louis Mariconi and
Leslie, which is pretty amazing, and I think that's why we had such a nice
continuity to the garden.

We had wonderful Italian gardeners and they lived up in the cottage,
which was built by Gardner Dailey, behind the tennis court. It actually was
burned in 1960. I think there were over fourteen bedrooms and they had their
own dining room and cook. But they had a happy life. They were older
gardeners and they had their bocce ball tournaments . They made the olive oil
out of the olives that you see here, and they picked mushrooms in the woods.
Our young gardeners today in the garden are just marvelous and wonderful
interns, and we're devoted to them, but when you think of this group of Italian
gardeners, it was a different life for them because Filoli was a home. They
had other chores to do. They had to cut wood and they had to do many other
things, so it was a more or less different group of people.

153

Then there was the vegetable garden. We had a magnificent Italian
vegetable garden. We had fresh fruits and vegetables that came in every day.
I always remember in the spring we had fresh lavender bags that were made
each year and put into the linen closets.

As for the house, the reception room was a magnificent room, and to see
it then you'd never forget it. It had beautiful red damask couches throughout
the room, and bunches of carnations and roses, all through the house. As you
know, my mother did all of her arrangements. She loved flowers and I never
remember seeing Filoli without plants and flowers all through the house.

On the wall was a beautiful sixteenth century mille fleurs French
tapestry. This tapestry was given by the French government to Mr. Bourn
during the San Francisco exposition. During the time that my mother lived
here, and also continually now, she has a great devotion to the furniture
here. It is her wish that on her death much of the furniture that she has in
her house today will return to Filoli, and that tapestry will be one of them.

The greenhouses were filled with dendrobians and cymbidiums . We had a
wonderful greenhouse man. I believe he was Norwegian. His name was Mr.
Hansen. The house was always just filled with beautiful containers and plants.
I especially remember by those windows there were beautiful Oriental containers,
and they placed the orchids there with the little piggyback around to add
greenery.

The library was a very welcome room for us all. I can't explain to you
how it looked. When we had the bookcases filled with books, it gave a very
rich feeling to the room, and the couches had a lovely celadon green material
that was exactly, in fact, like the drapes that are in the room today. Then
on the floor was a beautiful rose, crimson rug that was known as the Isfahan
Palace carpet. This rug came from the Osbourne house on the Isle of Wight
which was originally owned by Queen Victoria and Edward VII. This will return
to Filoli someday.

Then in the far corner of the room was one of the most magnificent desks
I've ever seen. It was George III and it was attributed to Thomas Chippendale
and, in fact, I believe it came from the Earl of Warwick, and it also is
illustrated in the English dictionary of furniture as one of the finest pieces
of Chippendale. It was a marvelous desk because it had all of these secret
little drawers in them. For children it was always great fun to try and find
how to open them all.

The den, as I called it, or the back sitting room or drawing room (whatever
you want to call it), was our family room. Of course, that's been all re-done.
The drapes were done by my mother. This was the room where we had our tv and
cards. It had a marvelous fireplace, and had a lovely bench in front. It
was a very cozy room because the two couches were on either side of the fire
place with the bench in front, and we always sat there.

154

Then the lovely collection of calabashes (and they're not all here today,
but I think there are a few in the bookcases to the rear of the room) . Those
calabashes are very, very old. They are the old Hawaiian containers, and they
actually augmented a very fine collection from the Boston Museum when it was
in San Francisco. Bella Worn loved to arrange flowers in these containers. I
always remember them being used, especially in the ballroom.

The French room was usually used as an overflow from the dining room,
but it was especially nice for the ladies who would meet there after dinner
and have their coffee there. The men would always go into the library. It
was always such a sparkly room with all of the chandeliers and, of course,
it was known as the French room because of the beautiful French mezzotints that
you see on the wall. My mother still has most of the furniture from the dining
room. It had a beautiful Sheraton table in the middle and, as Timmy told you
the other day, it had highback needlepoint chairs. In the corner was a lovely
oak table where we often had lunch. Of course, in those days the oak tree in
the courtyard was still there, so it wasn't as sunny as it is now. But it was
a very cheerful place to have lunch.

As for the children and grandchildren, they have many memories. They
still remember playing hide-and-go-seek up the long corridors upstairs. We
used to come as a family every Thursday and every Sunday. All of the children —
it didn't matter what age they were — they all came. We spent the night here.
I was talking to my daughter as I drove home last night and she said, "Do you
remember also we used to hide behind the mirrors in the ballroom in the passages
down there?" Sometimes, in fact, when we were eating dinner, my father had to
send word up to them to get back to their beds because they had such a lovely
hide-and-go-seek time.

All of us well remember stealing cookies from Kee's kitchen. Kee was
our Chinese cook that was here for fifty years. He used to get a little
annoyed after awhile. He had cooked two dozen cookies and they had disappeared
the next day. So when I look at that stove I always think of Kee because he
always used to warn them that if he caught them again stealing cookies that he

would bake them in the oven! [laughter]

.

Holidays were a special time here and, of course, Christmas was one of the
most beautiful times. I especially remember the reception room had the most
magnificent Christmas tree that went clear to the ceiling, which is nearly
seventeen feet, and had beautiful Christmas decorations that my mother had
collected for years. Then all through the house we had fresh holly and redwood
wreaths on every window through the house and even upstairs we had those that
the gardeners had made. On the mantle she had a marvelous collection of creches
that she had collected from all over the country, German and Hungarian and
every creche that you can imagine. They were on every mantle.

It was a family time, so we had three generations. We had my mother's
friends, we had our friends, and then the children and the grandchildren. It
was usually a party of about sixty or seventy people and we always had it in
the ballroom. Each year there were different decorations, and Mother would
plan every year with great care what was to go on the table. So it was always
very exciting to walk into the room and see what was there.

155

The little ones, the grandchildren, were always allowed to sit at the
tables in front of the stage. Then as they grew up and became young ladies
and gentlemen, they were moved to the rear. But it always seemed that we
had young ones in the front.

Of course, when Christmas came it was their great challenge to learn all
the Christmas carols. It didn't matter if they were two or three. They knew
"The Red-Nosed Reindeer," and they knew every thing. > They, as a group, would
go around and serenade all of the tables.

We always had a Christmas choir from a local church, sometimes from
Woodside, sometimes from an Episcopal church in San Mateo. These children
would come usually during the middle of the dinner and they would sing
beautiful Christmas carols.

It was an old-fashioned Christmas. It was a buffet. We had the table by
the fireplace and we had all the Christmas trimmings, the chocolate log and
the plum pudding and, of course, ice cream for the children. Then at the end
of the party, at about 11:00, we would all gather in the reception room there.
There weren't even enough chairs for everybody to sit on, so the children
usually ended up sitting on the floor. Some of the older grandchildren played
the guitar quite well. So they all performed.

Then we had a very nice person that came every year whose name was Mr.
Alexander. He usually ended the Christmas. I always remember he sang the
Lord's Prayer and it just made Filoli, it was just the nicest blessing, and
everybody went to church or mass, or many did. I never did because I always
felt — I always still remember — that final blessing.

Easter was a wonderful time and you can imagine hiding Easter eggs in the

yew hedges! [laughter]

For me, I have many memories and it is always difficult for me each time
to go through this, but I'm getting a little stronger. As a decent it was
particularly hard. The garden lives, but the house, naturally, without my
family and without the original furniture, never seems the same. But I must
say, today we are getting back more furniture. We have some beautiful flower
arrangers now and some of that old feeling is returning to Filoli. I guarantee
you that when spring comes and that lovely wisteria starts drifting through
the house again, you will have the same feeling that we have. I'm just very
grateful that my mother's wish has been fulfilled and that you will be able
to enjoy Filoli. [applause]

[followed by a brief question-and-answer period]

Victor

Thompson: You didn't mention a lot of things that you have mentioned sometimes,
that you rode horseback up in the hills.

156

Coonan: Oh, yes, every morning we rode horseback, along the old Canada Road.
Actually, Mr. .Bourn changed the Caifada Road when he built Filoli.
The original Cariada Road is the one in the rear and then he changed
it to run along the east side of the house. But for us, that was
just a lovely road and it went all the way down to the Spring Valley
Lakes. So as a family we were on our horses every morning at 8:30
and we rode clear to the lakes. It was just beautiful. As you know
today, we hope the 520 acres that runs up to the top of the hill
will be a Nature Conservancy [holding] and we will have beautiful
trails through there. We have the Audubon Society here collecting
bird species and I believe there are over eighty different species,
and we have bobcats that are very rare, and many things that will
be interesting to study through the years. (Did I miss anything
else?)

Victor: No. There was even a rumor of a mountain lion being there.

Coonan: Oh, yes, a mountain lion.

Victor: I'm not quite sure it was really a lion.

Coonan: It's true. L saw it.

Victor: Did you really?

Coonan: Yes, I did. It was very exciting. I called the rangers.

Victor: [to docents] At the close of the class we will take a tour by car
through the rest of the property, so you will see the farm group
that Gardner Dailey designed, and also the Indian village.

Coonan: I have one picture I think you'll get a kick from. I forgot to

show it. I've always shown it to my classes. I think it's pretty
cute. [shows picture of twins] Now, you tell which is which.
[laughter] Isn't that great? This was taken at the Tally Ho
party, years and years ago. It was called the Menlo Circus, I
believe. Bren and I were queens and you can see how lovely and
graceful we are! [laughter] We felt very important. I had to
look at it to really figure out which was which. I figured that's
me and that's Bren, but it's pretty tough.

Question: How old were you in that picture?

Coonan: Oh, eight or something like that. You see, I'm twenty minutes older,
that's why I get my mother's name.

Victor: You might just mention the big debut parties.

157

Coonan: Well, we had two beautiful parties here. It was just a fairyland.
All of the plants were grown here, and Mr. Hansen whom I spoke
to you about, it was unbelievable what he produced. They were
just unbelievable. It was just a bower of flowers all through,
and the candlelight — you could watch in the gardens at night and
usually they were in September, so that was our Indian summer. It
was a beautiful time of year to see. But it was just beautifully
done and it is very difficult to describe it without the pictures.
But there were two lovely parties here actually. By the time they
were getting down to the smaller grandchildren, then my mother said,
"No more, that's it." But she did give two lovely parties for us.
So that was beautiful. Are there any questions?

Question: I was going to ask you, the old Canada road was never paved, was it?

Coonan: The old Canada? Never paved, still dirt, and we will go up there.
We go down by the Indian digs, to see where that is, we go up there
the day that we go to the Bourn cemetery. So you will see all that
area there. The Woodside Trail Club also has a key and they are
allowed to come through, so often you will see horses going through
there, but that's the Woodside Trail Club, which joins Mr. Phleger's
property on the other side, which is a tremendous piece of property.

Do you think that maybe some time in the future there might be
the possibility of reconstructing that farm group so that we might
have students who live on the place and who go to school here?

Right now, Mai, it's not possible, but someday. It's a marvelous
place to do it, and actually the foundation is still there and the
plumbing probably, so that might be a wonderful place because it is
just a little bit more private from Filoli so that they could be
away from the actual center of Filoli. It would be a good idea.

Mai was in on the planning, when we first started, wasn't it,
the planning of the garden? She is on the board of trustees now,
and she has always been a great help to us in the garden. She is
a knowledgeable horticulturist, she really is.

Victor: That would fit into the long-range plan of Filoli to be a garden
training center.

Coonan: Of course, the hope would not only be that it would be a horti
cultural center, but a cultural center. This is what we are
hoping to do, because this was the intent in the beginning, that
it would be not only horticulture but also a cultural [center]
where we would have symphonies and plays .

Mai

Arbegast :

Coonan:

158

Coonan: I think Hadley Osborn has told you that many people think of the
garden as a botanical garden. It isn't a botanical garden, it is
a display garden. But as he said, many people ask you where the
cactus garden is or where the something-garden is, and we don't
have that because it was just to be a joy, and this is quite
different from a botanical garden.

Victor: One more question over here.

Question: I was wondering if there was a definite plan for opening a lunch
room, or is that still in the planning stages?

Coonan: Yes, definitely. We have a fund that was given to us, but we will
continue. Eventually, it will be just a perfect place for people
to have their box luncheons and have tables out there. The real
problem is that we don't want to have Filoli become a brown bagger
where everybody is dropping things. So that would be a lovely place
to be and they would probably take down the old tennis court fence
that was there and just have tables, and it would be a marvelous
place.

Question: Would it be a restaurant, more or less?

Coonan: No, not yet. It was actually my brother's dream — he hoped that we
could convert the kitchen to be able to have luncheons here like
the Allied Arts, have the kitchen and have a few, but it takes
tremendous time and money to go through this. It's much better to
go slowly and do it right than to jump into this thing, and that
is why we have gone at this pace, and I think it's a very healthy
pace. We are going along, and you can see great progress every
year, how it's changing. I think every year we will have something
new added.

Question: Was Filoli a year-around home for your family?

Coonan: Oh, yes, once we moved in 1937. I think I was about fourteen when
I came here, and then I stayed here until I was married at twenty-
five. After my father died, my mother continued to live here
alone, and she didn't mind it for many years, really didn't mind
it, but then it got where it wasn't safe for her any longer. I
think it's very nice that it's been done while she is still alive.
As Hadley tells you, she comes up still and walks here every day
before the tours and she keeps an eye on it. [laughter]

Question: What about household help?

Coonan: To tell you the truth (I did mention this), most of the help were
here for the lifetime that we lived here. I don't know that we
ever had a change. Most of them — Kee is still living. He is

159

Coonan: ninety-five, but he comes down to see my mother every year (the

Chinese cook). Of course, four of them have passed away, but most
of them that are living are just part of the family. It's kind
of interesting, because David Patterson, who was the butler here,
he worked for my family and he actually was just a young boy when
he first came up. He came up with his aunt. I guess his aunt was
the laundress and he used to come up and play around here when she
was here. Then he came to work for our family, and he did all of
that beautiful silver, which was the Bourn silver, and kept it up
beautifully. It was all in that silver closet. David is a docent
today, and if you really want to take an interesting tour, take a
tour with David! [laughter] I don't know how much truth there
is to all his stories, but it will still be interesting! [more
laughter]

Of course, in those days they didn't have the dishwashers and
the washing machines and dryers, so the sheets and everything
were done here, and the laundry room, which runs under the kitchen,
was used. We had a laundress and she did everything that was here.

As I say, Mother did all of the flowers. The flower room is
off that room when you enter the ballroom there. (I don't know if
all of you have been through the house.) But they'd bring the
flowers in every morning in buckets, and she would arrange them
herself. Later on, she had help lifting the vases. I don't know
if I mentioned it today, but the den had the most beautiful pair of
tangerine vases.

Victor: Next week we got to take a tour through the house, and we will take
you upstairs, which is closed, of course, to visitors. The movie
company, you know, furnished the house for the film, "Heaven Can Wait
and they put down carpets in the upstairs hall. When we hoped to
open the house the following spring for tours > Lurline and I had
to get down on our hands and knees and measure that upstairs carpet
and then cut it in half. The hall is nine feet wide and a hundred
and three feet long. We cut that taupe carpet in half and that's
the runners you have downstairs now.

Coonan: It's been a big saving to the floors.

Victor: Really. We couldn't have opened the house without that movie
company carpet.

A lot of the tours, they ask you right away how many servants
are needed to run the house.

Coonan: Well, it gets exaggerated. It gets exaggerated as to gardeners
too. It sounded like we had an army here.

160

Victor:

Coonan :

Question:
Coonan:

Arbegast;
Coonan :

There are twelve bedrooms in the servant's wing, so that is the
basis you could use.

But some of them were used for a sitting room. They weren't all
each in a room. So that has been greatly exaggerated. But this
was the original dining room for the help. We converted this area.
Leavenworth, who was our first executive director here, he lived
here, and so they redid [it]. They cut through this wall, but the
rooms here were all still original, and this was the help's
dining room right here always . So none of this area has changed
too much.

Another thing that I think is important that a lot of people
miss: you know when you go down that long hallway when you enter the
reception room, at the first turn down the transverse (the alley,
the hallway) that goes to the dining room, it's rather a dark room,
but when the family lived here they had a beautiful collection of
icons, and my mother still has that collection. These Russian icons
are very, very rare and they are just almost impossible to get.
They have the beautiful silver and gold inlay on the outside — the
heads are painted — and then the beautiful silver and gold. They
were hung in that hall and that really illuminated the room, just
from the reflection alone of those icons. They were beautiful.

Will a tour ever be opened to the upstairs?

I feel that it is going to be a long time before this happens,
you are on the long range planning, aren't you?

Not at the moment.

Mai,

The problem is that there are certain building codes that have to be
accepted. There is hope that some day perhaps there will be
libraries up there, perhaps office rooms, something, or study rooms
for interns. It will be utilized, but I don't think it's going to
be right away in the near future. I think this will take time.

My hope someday is that we will have a history room and have
the Bourn room with old photographs. I personally like photographs
better than paintings, because I think they are a lot more accurate.
[I would like] to have the mining days and the original pictures of
the garden, and then our family could have another room and show
the start in the shipping business, and Filoli and how it originated,
and the gardens in my mother's day — a history room. Many people come
through and I think they're interested in seeing what the background
of Filoli is, and if it were done in different rooms, it would be
a great idea to do it. But that's a dream.

161

Victor: We need to modify county building code standards now to admit

historic houses, because they want to treat this house as though
it were an elementary school and put sprinkler systems throughout
the whole house, and this would be ridiculous in a historical
context to have to do that. So a loophole is needed to
provide for historic preservation.

Coonan: There has to be.

[end of question- and-answer session]

162

APPENDICES

A. "Captain Matson and the Matsonia ," by Erna Fergusson 163

B. "Miss Matson1 s Betrothal," San Francisco Examiner 170

C. "Captain William Matson (1849-1917), From Handy Boy

to Shipowner," by John E. Gushing 171

D. Mrs. William P. Roth, memberships in horse breeder

and horse show associations 183

E. "Chief of Longview, 'The Great Parader'" 184

F. A drawing of the Roderick Dhu by W. A. Coulter 187

G. (Captain Rock) "Becomes a Farmer," Hauaii Herald 188
H. Captain Rock, and the Levi G. Burgess 191
I. Falls of Clyde by Captain Fred K. Klebingat 192
J. "The Roth Twins' Debut— THE 1939 Social Event" 200
K. Tony Duquette's notes on Mrs. Roth 201
L. "Christmases At Filoli Recalled," San Francisco Examiner 203
M. Filoli Center brochure 205
N. "The Flowering Shrubs of Filoli," by Mai K. Arbegast 209
0. "The Gardens of Filoli," by Albert Wilson 217

163
APPENDIX A — From Our Hawaii, Erna Fergusson, Knopf, New York, 1942

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like a hotel or a country club that one quite forgets the sea —
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tain, Peter Johnson. Built in 1927, she was the first merchant
steamship built under specifications drafted after the Titanic
disaster. She cost six and a half million dollars, had a capacity
of 565 passengers, and was named the Malolo, " Flying Fish "
in Hawaiian. Therein, according to some Hawaiians, lay her
jinx, because a flying fish is famous for running away and
anything named for so cowardly a creature would be sure to
come to a bad end.
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to take her on her maiden voyage to Honolulu. When he looked
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he had ever seen. She was soon to prove her seaworthiness.
They sailed from Philadelphia on a Monday morning. On
Tuesday afternoon they were rammed by a Norwegian
freighter. I quote from Captain Johnson's memoirs:
" The Malolo was rammed in the most vital spot, flooding
the two fire rooms with over five thousand tons of water. No

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APPENDIX B

170

MISS MATSON'S BETROTHAL FLASHED BY CABLE
MILLIONAIRE FATHER'S OBJECTIONS STRANDED

Captain Matson's Thundered "No!" Gets
Lost Somewhere and Couple Are Reunited

The announcement of the engagement
of Miss Lurline Matson, the daughter
of Captain William Matson of the Mat-
son Navigation Company, and one of
San Francisco's most charming society
girls, to William Roth of Honolulu,
was received by cable in this city
yesterday.

Behind this message, which came
from Captain and Mrs. Matson, who
with their daughter, are in Honolulu,
is as as pretty a romance as ever came
to a happy conclusion in California,
and last night the cables between
this continent and Hawaii flashed
congratulations to Miss Matson and
her fiance.

The romance of the beautiful San
Francisco girl and the young Honolulu
man has led over rocky paths during
the last year. It all but wrecked
two lives. It careened over two con
tinents and the island possessions.
All this because a bluff sea veteran,
master of ships and of millions,
swore that his daughter should not
marry a comparatively penniless youth
just making his start in the world.

Reception Was Brief

About a year ago young Roth, a broker
in Honolulu, came to San Francisco,
walking on clouds and feeding on star
dust. He had wooed and won Miss Lurline,
and all that was left was to obtain the
consent of her father. Ever since the
time Roth called on Captain Matson in
his office the wags of San Francisco's
exclusive set have been relating the
incidents of the reception and the sub
sequent ejection of the Honolulu suitor.
The conference was brief and most pain
ful to young Roth. The details were
kept from Miss Matson, but she heard
immediately about the results.

There was only one thing Captain
Matson overlooked. He did not con
sider what effect the refusal would
have on his daughter, the heiress
to his millions. Miss Matson was
overcome. She had been known for
several years as athletic, an excel
lent horsewoman and a keen lover of
out-of-door sports. Her health failed,
and last fall Mrs. Matson took her
heartbroken daughter to Europe, where
they visited several fashionable re
sorts. Specialists were consulted,
but the health of the young woman did
not improve till about six weeks ago,
when she and her mother received a
message from Captain Matson telling
them to come home, and he would apply
a new treatment for his daughter's
illness.

Cure Is Wonderful

• After arriving in San Francisco
about three weeks ago, Captian and
Mrs. Matson and Miss Lurline — the
latter now practically recovered from
her strange malady — sailed on the new
liner, Matsonia, to Honolulu. It was
the Matsonia 's maiden trip, and Miss
Matson enjoyed every hour of the
voyage.

She was quite herself when the Mat
sonia moored in Honolulu, and William
Roth, again walking on clouds, met the
steamer and the members of the Matson
family.

Captain Matson smiled in spite of
himself and slapped young Roth on the
back. The wealthy ship owner admitted
that he had been poor himself at one
stage of his career, had even sailed
before the mast.

San Francisco Examiner
February 15, 1914

APPENDIX C 171

From booklet: "Captain William Matson (1849-1917), From Handy Boy to Shipowner"
by John E. Gushing — from a Newcomen Society lecture given by Mr. Gushing
before the Coast Guard Academy at New London, Conn., October 4, 1949.

That man was Captain William Matson. Just 100 years ago,
measured back from October :8th of this present Year 1949, in
Lysekil, Sweden, a rugged little boy, a genuine "forty-niner"
was born. Both of his parents were killed accidentally when he
was only a few years old, and, he, like many orphans, as he grew
up, developed a sense of self-reliance.

His love was the Sea, and he used to spend his time out of school
looking at the tall masts of the sailing ships, which came and went
from his native shores.

One day — only 10 years old — he shipped as a handy boy on
a sailing vessel, and a career, which was to write a chapter in the
maritime history of America, was begun.

His education was obtained as he went along. His promotions
were earned under harsh conditions, at the hands of mates, who
believed in stern measures. His interest was in ships sailing to
far-away places ; and one da/ he shipped, at the age of 14, on the
Aurora which took him to New York. Stories of gold in California
filled the minds of everyone he met, and there he joined a sailing
ship, the Eridge'jcater, on a trip around the Horn, landing in San
Francisco, a lusty, hustling town, still frontier, still resounding,
though faintly, with the clamor of men hunting gold.

Now — he might have been diverted into the gold fields, but
the Sea — the ships — were in his blood.

•« U

The best job he could get was on a barge which plied San Fran
cisco Bay, and it was while serving on barges and on the coal
schooner, William Frederick, that he met, and liked the men con
nected with the Spreckels Sugar Refinery. They liked this rugged
young Swede, too. By now he had become Master of a coal barge.

I did not know him intimately, but one day the chief of our
watchman's department was cleaning out some old papers in his
office on the San Francisco docks and he found a picture signed on
the back "William Matson." It was the picture of a young man
with wide-set eyes, a firm jaw, but the thing that impressed me

I 10 ]

172

was a look of determination, utter fearlessness and frankness. We
revived the picture, had it copied, and used it as a cover picture
in the Matsonews, a company publication for employees. It was
the only picture of him that many of those in the company ever
had seen, and it impressed us.

1? 1?

Sugar — his friends at Spreckels refined it, and some of it came
from Hawaii — in sailing ships. Another far-off place, — and Wil
liam Matson shipped on a small sailing vessel trading with the
Sandwich Islands — known to us today as Hawaii. In those days
it was a kingdom, ruled by king Kalakaua, and there was a trade
developing with the friendly natives, and the expanding colony
of Americans who first came to the Islands in 1824.

He must have seen great possibilities, because it was not long
before he was talking to his friends about the wonderful opportu
nity which existed in this trade between San Francisco and the
Hawaiian Islands. By now he was just 21, and he was a Master
Mariner.

William, now Captain Matson, went about raising money to
acquire a ship. With his friends he raised the sum of $2O,OOO and
built the Emma Claudina, a small schooner capable of carrying
300 tons.

It was customary in those days to build ships on shares — not to
go about, selling stock in small amounts, but each man put up
what he could afford, or desired to invest, taking a sixteenth or
a thirty-second, and this practice continued with the ship which
he later built.

It is interesting to note that many large holdings in present-day
Matson Company started with these small investments. With some
of his partners, a $i,OOO was about all they could raise. Some of
the descendants of these original investors sit on the Board of
Directors of the company today.

173

When the ship, Emma Claudina, finally entered the trade, the
problem of course was to get cargo — that is a problem all shipping
men have today — getting enough cargo to keep American ships in
service against the keen competition of foreign vessels operating at
lower costs. The uneven struggle of the American ship with its
cheaper operating foreign competitors is well exemplified in Bill
Nye's story of the fight with his enemy. Nye published a news
paper in a little Western cow town, and had many an editorial
battle with an editor across the street, who published — according
to Nye — "what he fondly conceived to be a newspaper."

Nye, telling of the encounter credits himself with the victory,
because, as he relates: "We met in the middle of the street, in
mortal combat — I finally got underneath him and when I got
my ear in his mouth, I knew I had him! "

Captain Matson would make the outward voyage as Master,
his ship loaded with merchandise for the Island merchants. He
brought back coconuts, sugar, sandal wood, and railroad ties. There
was much railroad building going on at that time in the West,
and to fill up space, he had conceived the idea of having railway
ties cut from native woods, which he could draw upon to complete
his homeward cargo.

The trade prospered, and he began to dream about a large
ship which would make it possible for him to carry all that was
offered. Once again he went to his associates, who by now had
unlimited confidence in him, and he raised money again, in six
teenths and thirty-seconds, to build what was to him a dream
ship — the Lurline — a brig, with cargo capacity of 640 tons. He
was able by that time to take 8/32nds as his share of the cost, and
she cost $32,000! Some of my old-timer friends who sailed with
him told me of his pride in this vessel. He was its Master, and he
would walk about it, watching every sail, noting all its peculiarities
and possibilities. Men who sailed with him found him a good man
to work with, and his ship was a happy ship. He fed well and would
many times' reward an extra good job with a 20 dollar gold piece.

He and his crew worked day and night in port, loading and dis-

174

charging cargo. He also traded in merchandise, buying goods to
fill up in either direction, taking a chance on his ability to dispose
of it on arrival.

Captain Matson's field of endeavor was destined to lie between
the Port of San Francisco and his beloved Hawaiian Islands ; and,
during his first few years trading, there must have been crystalliz
ing that idea which was to develop into what we take for granted
today — a regular, dependable service to and from the Islands,
ample cargo space, and a schedule which shippers could plan for
and rely on.

During these days, there were other sailing ships, belonging
to the Planters Line, which were trading back and forth on a more
or less regular schedule, but stopping principally at Honolulu.
The Big Island — as Hawaiians fondly call the Island of Hawaii —
was 20O miles aizay from Honolulu and there was no regular
service. Hilo, the principal port, was a good harbor, and sugar
grew luxuriantly along the lowlands, and on the Hamakua Coast,
because of the heavy showers and abundant sunshine. The Big
Island needed a steady service and a market. Spreckels had inter
ests on the Big Island, so it was only natural for the Captain to fit
his idea into the scheme of things, and thus assure himself of
cargoes.

The population of the Hawaiian Islands, in those days, was a
little more than fifty thousand; and sugar production was about
I2,OOO tons per year, but increasing steadily. The Treaty of Reci
procity of 1876 had admitted Hawaiian sugar free of duty, and
Captain Matson obtained a contract to carry some of the sugar. The
majority of it was carried by the other sailing ships which were
established in the trade.

His first call in Hilo was on May 4th, 1882 in the Emma
Claudina. The Brig Lurllne made her first voyage in 1887; and,
in 1891, Captain Matson took the first step toward building up a

[ 13 I

175

strong fleet by acquiring the wooden bark Harvester, carrying
ten passengers and a crew of thirteen men. Trade expanded, and
he added additional ships to the fleet. They were all in the one-
thousand ton class and he always tried to get fast ships. Each new
one brought an over-supply of cargo space, setting a new level
of trade for him to meet, but the momentum he generated in
building up volume always overshot the mark, and carried him
into the need for still another ship. More ships stimulated more
trade, which in turn, demanded still more ships — so went the
rhythm of progress in Matson facilities and in the trade to and
from Hawaii.

One ship which he purchased, the Roderick Dhu} was the first
sailing ship on the Pacific to be equipped with a regular cold storage
plant for stores. Also, she was electrically lighted. Something of
an innovation in those days — taken for granted today. The
Roderick Dhu which he regarded as "the trimmest little ship I
ever sailed" made the 2,090 mile voyage from San Francisco to
Honolulu in 9 days and 3 hours. Almost as fast as some of the 10-
knot First World War ships which followed after her. Later on,
the present Lurline, covered the same mileage in 4^ days without
stepping up to her full speed.

During the next half dozen years, two fundamental changes
came about — steel ships — steam propelled, had been steadily
gaining in ocean transportation. Progress had dealt a blow to
romance. The proud, gallant, old sailing ships were on their way
out, and progress was setting a new pattern for Matson's opera
tion. He saw the need for the change — from sail to steam j
and, once more, as in Kipling's immortal work — : Old Sir Anthony
says:

Steel, and the first expansion, it paid, I tell you, it paid,

We came with our 9 knot freighters, and collared the long run
trade.

To build new a steel steamship would cost a great sum. There
were long conferences and much talk about the advantages of steel

I 16]

176

•versus iron — steam versus sail. Someone suggested an economical
way out. It so happened that a Spanish steamship had been wrecked
on the Atlantic Coast and under our laws it could be bought, and,
if salvaged and rebuilt at a cost satisfactory to fill the legal require
ments, it could be registered and operated as an American vessel.

Captain Matson's partners were advised of the proposition, and,
when it came time to take action, he had their backing.

1? "8?

The wrecked ship was put on the block at a public sale, and the
stocky, determined man took his place among the bidders. There
was stiff competition, as other steamship companies wanted that
ship. Up and up went the price until it was past the point which
he had authority to go, but here the character and courage of the
man asserted itself. He called a higher price than the last bid
and all around looked at him. They could read only one thing in
his face. He was determined to have that ship. Bidding stopped
and the ship was his.

She was salvaged, and went into the shipyard for rebuilding.

•g "$

It was his first steamship and she was named the Enterprise
as a tribute to the people who had stood behind him. She finally
was finished in 1 902, and sailed around the Horn to take her place
in the Hawaiian trade. She was 3,620 tons deadweight and she
carried 22 passengers.

One of the old-timers told me about her arrival and said that
the Captain stood on the dock watching the ship come alongside,
full of expressions of pride, and he wondered if she would ever
sail full of cargo. "We're going to have to work hard to get enough
cargo to keep her full" was the way he put it. Today, loads of
12,000 tons in our modern C-3 freighters are the usual thing.

Meanwhile, Hawaii was undergoing changes — a new govern
ment, a Republic, sought admission to the Union as a State; but
it was not until the Spanish-American War had demonstrated the
value of Hawaii as a mid-Pacific base, that serious consideration

[ 17 ]"

177

was given to her request. Negotiations were opened which finally
led to annexation, in 1898, as a Territory of the United States.

The Island sugar industry doubled and trebled its output. With
the increase in commerce between the Islands and the mainland,
came a corresponding increase in passenger traffic. The regular
business travel was being steadily augmented by tourists, enroute
to Hawaii for sightseeing and pleasure.

Captain Matson noted this trend and built a second Lurline, a
steamship, which carried fifty-one passengers, 8000 tons of cargo.
Two years later, came the Wilhelmina — eleven bathrooms — ac
commodations for 146 passengers — appointments that "rivaled
the finest on the Atlantic," to quote from the advertisements of
the day. Also, the first motion picture show for passengers was
given on the Wilhelmina.

Swiftly in the wake of the Wilhelmina came the Manoa, then
the Matsonia, half again as large. Three years later, came the
Maui, sister ship of the Matsonia — all built in American shipyards.
These four, fast, modern ships made possible a regular weekly
sailing to and from the Islands, and started the tourist industry
of Hawaii which today closely rivals the two basic industries —
sugar and pineapple.

The building of the second Lurline was a big undertaking. The
steam ships which preceded her were made-overs and rebuilts,
but here was a steel ship, which had to be planned from keel to
truck. Captain Matson spent long hours over the plans, and when
the contract was let to Newport News Shipyard, he was a frequent
visitor, and his technical men were on the job day and night, watch
ing to see that every specification was faithfully fulfilled — even
down to the "last box of matches" as they said in the shipyard. When
she was finished she made her way around the Horn and entered
the service, in 1908. Her arrival in San Francisco was a red letter
day. The President of the Chamber of Commerce commented
solemnly, on the daring of the man who — "risked so much."

' [ 18 ]

178

Now this very remarkable man, although his first interest was
in ships, had become convinced that oil was the coming thing for
fuel, in steamships, and for the industries on the Pacific Coast.
He became interested in the oil fields around Coalinga, California,
and formed a company to produce and transport oil. Later on, he
organized the Honolulu Oil Company, now one of the large pro
ducers, owning properties in many States of the Union. The
problem of getting oil to the Coast cheaply, fascinated him; also
the rail rate by tank car was very high, so to overcome this, he
constructed a pipe line, from Gaviota to his wells in the Buena
Vista Hills. It was the first "large" pipe line, 4 inches to be exact;
and it carried the oil to his terminals at tide water, where it was
transferred to a fleet of barges, converted from old sailing vessels.
Quite a contrast with the "Big Inch" lines which span half of our
continent today.

He was the first to use oil as a fuel in the Pacific offshore trade
when he converted his first steamship, the Enter-prise^ to burn oil.
This sounds very simple today — but it required quite a bit of doing.

Oil was not too well-known in those days, and viscosities, flash
points, and similar mysteries surrounded its use. It was regarded
as hazardous, and there was official objection to its use because
of the danger to ships and passengers from explosion.

Captain Matson persevered through many conferences with the
old U. S. Steamboat Inspection Service, and permission finally and
reluctantly was granted. People quite naturally are unaware of
the long and difficult road which had to be travelled to succeed in
getting such an idea accepted.

When the new Lurline II was built, she was fitted out with
large bunker capacity, as he had in mind carrying excess bunkers
for delivery to the plantations and other industries in the Hawaiian
Islands. There was no indigenous fuel, and Australian coal was
the principal source of power. The plantations relied largely upon
bagasse^ and upon this expensive coal for their power. Public

[ 19 1

179

utilities also burned coal, and oil was a Godsend to them, because
it was cheaper and in good supply. Oil was 20 cents per barrel at
the wells, at one time.

1? 1?

Of course, it should be said that the Captain had an eye to busi
ness, because he earned a good freight at so much per barrel
delivered. But — he helped to reduce the cost of electricity and the
cost of making sugar, to the extent that it was a good piece of
business all around.

Radio — today a ship without it would be considered a curiosity —
if not unseaworthy. Yet someone had to start it and Captain Mat-
son once again was the first on the Pacific. He installed an old spark
set on the SS Enter-prise and it was the talk of the industry. Other
ships and other owners soon followed. He did it because he had
been a ship master on long sailing ship voyages, out of touch with
the world, except for an occasional speaking to a passing sailing
ship. He knew the value of being in touch with his vessels, keeping
track of their positions, and being able to tell his shippers when
their cargo would arrive, thus removing the guesswork and the
need for watches on the Hilltops to sound the cry of "Steamboat"
when a ship was sighted.

Steam Turbines — we take them for granted. It is hard to realize
that anyone should have questioned turbines as a means of pro
pelling a ship, but here again — a fight between ideas and experi
ence. Turbines would strip — you couldn't make repairs. Nothing
as good as a good old reciprocating "up-and-downer." But the
Captain persisted, and when the Maui was built she was the first
ship on the Pacific to be equipped with high-powered geared tur
bines. She was a success from the start, and all Matson ships con
structed after that were equipped with turbines. Their reliability
and economy were proved many times over and the old Captain
used to tease his opposition, saying: "See — I told you they would
work."

The Maui, Matsonia, and other ships were all peacefully en
gaged when we got into war, in 1917. They were requisitioned

180

and made outstanding records in transporting troops and material
to Europe. Their large bunker capacity was an asset to our forces
in the First World War and the ships, on several occasions, were
used to refuel Navy vessels at sea. It is doubtful, of course, that
the Captain foresaw such a possibility, but his ideas of how a ship
should be built, and .the uses to which she must be put, certainly
contributed a great deal to our military undertakings.

In October of 1917, Captain Matson died. The ship which bore
his name, the Matsonia, was in war service and he did not live to
see the plaques bestowed upon his vessels by a grateful Govern
ment.

While the man passed away, his spirit continued to dominate
the company, and the same progressive and daring policy which
had been his, continued to inspire those who were left to carry on.

In 1921, two of the largest freighters ever built in American
yards were constructed for the Hawaiian trade. Years later, these
two i4,OOO-ton ships, with two smaller sisters practically kept
the Islands in perishable food, running in fast convoys, during
our war with Japan. They were built along the lines of the ships
• which he favored.

The fleet continued to grow in pace with the development of
the Islands, and the Management always had in mind the idea
which eternally guided Captain Matson's thinking. First World
War cargo vessels were purchased, in numbers sufficient to provide
ample space for all cargo offered, and to serve all of the Pacific
ports. New features were added as needed to satisfy the shipper —
refrigeration, molasses tanks, special lockers.

Meantime, the pineapple industry had been undergoing a re
markable growth, and demand for this delicious fruit was constantly
increasing. From a small beginning, of a few thousand cases, the
pineapple pack now amounts annually, to about 20 million cases
of fruit and juice. Sugar production has increased to about I,OOO,-
OOO tons a year.

181

The company next placed some of its vessels on the route be
tween the Islands and the Atlantic Coast via Panama, and, once
more, brought to a reality another of Captain Matson's dreams,
as he had always been a strong supporter of the building of the
Panama Canal, pointing many times to the great saving in ship
time for a vessel en route from the Atlantic, to the Pacific Coast.

Another of his dreams which he did not live to see come true
was the building of the Malolo, 2i-knot passenger ship, a luxury
vessel in every respect, and really rivalling the finest appointments
and accommodations on the Atlantic. The Malolo went into service
in 1926, cutting the running time in half, and making it possible
for visitors to Hawaii to make the round trip within the regulation
t"joo-"xeeks vacation.

1? "i?

The success of the Malolo, afterwards renamed the Matsonia
in honor of Captain Matson, started the Management thinking of
a running mate, and, in 1928, Lurline III was contracted for. Two
other sister ships were built about the same time, for the Australian-
New Zealand and South Seas trade, and these vessels, which called
both ways at Honolulu, developed a substantial tourist trade
from the lands dorxn under, to the Hawaiian Islands.

When the present Lurl'me, Monterey, and Mari-posa were built,
certain U.S. Naval requirements were incorporated in their plans
and construction. These ships were fast, 632 feet long, 18,017
gross tons, and had passenger space for 728. They had large bunker
capacity, following the old Captain's ideas, which gave them a
steaming radius of 18,450 miles at 2 1^2 knots.

Down through the years, from the days of the little Emma
Claudina, the ideas planted in the mind of Captain Matson had
taken root, and here, on that night of December 9th, 1941, was a
fleet of freighters, and four large, fast passenger ships, plus an
organization, destined to play a big hand in the Second World
War.

The Lurl'me was stripped of her luxury fittings, converted into
a Troop Transport, and six days later, exhausted from long hours

182

of work and planning, we saw her off to Honolulu with the first
replacements for the Navy and Marine Corps. A short time later,
she was back and sailed, with the Mariposa, Matsonia, and Mont
erey, to garrison the Samoan Islands. ^

"% U I

During their war service these four liners covered over 1,450,-
OOO miles and carried 736,521 troops, civilian personnel, and
large numbers of wounded and prisoners of war.

1? °£

The Lurline, since the war, has been completely reconditioned
into a beautiful, fireproof luxury liner, and has taken her place in
the Hawaiian run.

"g ¥

The old freighters have all gone to their reward — replaced by a
modern fleet of 1 8 -knot C-3 cargo liners, C-2, and Liberty ships
equipped in every respect to cater to the requirements of the
Island shippers. They are serving all Pacific, Atlantic, and Gulf
ports, as well as South Seas, Australia, and New Zealand — strong
— lusty descendants of the little Emma Claudina.

Captain Matson would be proud to see them, and it was for
tunate that we had some ships available on that eventful day —
December 7, 1941. It was fortunate that somewhere back in those
years there was a man who had an idea — an idea that made it
possible for us to have ships when we need them.

"% °£

Kipling's Sir Anthony, while telling his son about his success in
the shipping business, epitomizes the guiding thought in William
Matson's life:

And they asked me how I did if, and I gave 'em the scripture
text,

You keep your light so shining, a little in front o' the next!

THE END

"Actorum Memores simul afectamus Agenda!"

APPENDIX D 183

•-.•-• T ^

123 BELLA VISTA DRIVE

HILLS BO ROUGH.
CALIFORNIA 94-O1O

September 8, 1980

MRS. WILLIAM P. ROTH

Member, Board of Directors of American
Horse Show Association, New York.

Member, Board of Directors, U. S. Equestrian
Team, Gladstone, New Jersey.

Member, Board of Directors of American
Saddlebred Horse Association, Louisville,
Kentucky.

Member, former Director of American
Hackney Horse Society, Pittsfield,
Illinois .

Member, Board of Directors of California
Saddle Horse Breeders Association.

Member, American Quarter Horse Association.
Member, U. S. Trotting Association.

L.B.R.

THE GREAT PARADER

APPENDIX E 184

CHIEF OF LONGVIEW

Perhaps the moat fitting tribute to Chief of Longview would be to re
produce the speech of CharlesW. Green, on the great stallion's retirement
at Kansas City in 1932, in the same ring where he had won his laurels on
his first appearance as a three-year old :

"You are about to witness one of the most dramatic events in horse
show history.We are bidding farewell to one of Missouri's greatest sons.
Here, in his own home town where he started his career in this arena, he
is ending tonight the most spectacular show life of any horse of our time.

"Born at Longview Farm, just a few miles from this city, a breeding es
tablishment owned by Mr. R. A. Long, one of the country's oldest sup
porters of the horse industry, and one who has produced some of the
most famous horses of the last century. To him goes the honor of having
produced one who is known as 'the greatest horse of all time,' Chief
of Longview.

"This outstanding stallion just seven years ago electrified an audience,
many of whom are here tonight, by not only winning the Junior stake as a
three-year-old, but by breaking all records for his age by winning the fi
nal Grand Championship. One of his many records, unsurpassed.

"Immediately after that show, he was purchased by the late Mrs. Wil
liam Matson, a keen judge and a real lover of horses, for her daughter,
Mrs. William P. Roth.

"Leaving for his new home in California, he began a career which took
him from the shores of the Pacific to those of the Atlantic ; Los Angeles,
San Francisco, St. Louis, Louisville, Chicago, Devon, Boston and New York
are but a few of the cities in which he swept all before Him. In our border
ing state, Kentucky, he established an unbeaten record by winning the
stallion championship four consecutive years, and the world's grand
championship twice.

"A fitting tribute by our friendly rivals was paid him last month when
Kentucky honored our Missouri son with a public demand for a farewell
exhibition.

185

Perhaps the most fitting tribute to Chief of Longview would be to re
produce the speech of CharlesW. Green, on the great stallion's retirement
at Kansas City in 1932, in the same ring where he had won his laurels on
his first appearance as a three-year old:

"You are about to witness one of the most dramatic events in horse
show history. We are bidding farewell to one of Missouri's greatest sons.
Here, in his own home town where he started his career in this arena, he
is ending tonight the most spectacular show life of any horse of our time.

"Born at Longview Farm, just a few miles from this city, a breeding es
tablishment owned by Mr. R. A. Long, one of the country's oldest sup
porters of the horse industry, and one who has produced some of the
most famous horses of the last century. To him goes the honor of having
produced one who is known as 'the greatest horse of all time,' Chief
of Longview.

"This outstanding stallion just seven years ago electrified an audience,
many of whom are here tonight, by not only winning the Junior stake as a
three-year-old, but by breaking all records for his age by winning the fi
nal Grand Championship. One of his many records, unsurpassed.

"Immediately after that show, he was purchased by the late Mrs. Wil
liam Matson, a keen judge and a real lover of horses, for her daughter,
Mrs. William P. Roth.

"Leaving for his new home in California, he began a career which took
him from the shores of the Pacific to those of the Atlantic; Los Angeles,
San Francisco,St. Louis, Louisville, Chicago, Devon, Boston andNew York
are but a few of the cities in which he swept all before him. In our border
ing state, Kentucky, he established an unbeaten record by winning the
stallion championship four consecutive years, and the world's grand
championship twice.

"A fitting tribute by our friendly rivals was paid him last month when
Kentucky honored our Missouri son with a public demand for a farewell
exhibition.

186

"That he is the greatest horse of all time is an admitted fact. Apart from
his ability as a performer, no horse ever entered the ring with such pres
ence or such striking individuality. His personality, his unbounded courage
and his masculine arrogance made him an outstanding figure in the finest
company.

"Although only ten years old and physically fit for many more contests,
he is being retired to the stud, having won all the laurels possible. His early
retirement is just what might be expected from his owner, Mrs. Roth,whose
genuine sportsmanship and real honest love of her horses has been a
striking example to the horse show world.

"It is doubtful whether any stallion has ever sired such a uniformly fine
lot of colts and fillies. His youngsters have been sensational wherever they
have been shown.lt was an historic occasion last Monday night when Chief
witnessed his own daughter, Crimson Rambler, win the same junior stake
which he had won in his youth at this show. This again was a repetition of
what happened in Kentucky a month ago and established another of
Chief of Longview's remarkable achievements.

"Too much credit for Chiefs victories cannot be given Lonnie Hayden,
another son of Missouri, who made him and rode him through his victori
ous career. They have always been inseparable and always will be. When
Chief left for California, nothing would satisfy him until Lonnie joined him.

"We shall now bid farewell to the 'Great Parader.' He ends his career
among his own home folks. Those whom he loves and those who love
him. Chief, though you may live in California — for us — you're a son of
old Missou'."

To Mrs. Roth and those closely associated with Chief of Longview, the
sympathy of the Saddle Horse world went out at Chief's untimely death,
but there should be more than consolation, and a vivid joyous remember-
ance of one they loved,when around the show ring, as Chief of Longview's
youngsters compete, they hear the reverent exclamations from a throng
of horsemen "There is the old Chief, himself! "

187

APPENDIX F

RODERICK DHU — drawing by W. A. Coulter.

APPENDIX G 188

BECOMES A FARMER

After fifty years at sea Captain Rock retired.

From the Hawaii Herald,
October 6, 1898, p. 2

Captain Charles Rock of the bark RODERICK DHU has decided to re
tire from the sea and turn farmer. For nearly 50 years he has been a sailor,
and for 29 years he has sailed in and out of the Golden Gate as master of San
Francisco otvned vessels. He now thinks he is entitled to a rest ashore.
Captain Rock's first command was the schooner EDWARD LEWS, after which
he was master of the FAIRY QUEEN and the bark EMMA AUGUSTA. Then
he built and sailed the schooner MARTHA W. TUFT and from her went to the
schooner PREMIER. Later he was master of the ships SUMATRA and
DETROIT, and then made one of four who purchased the ship LEV! G. BURGESS.
He commanded her for a time and then purchased into the bark HARVESTER.
After that he was master of the ship DAISY KIMBALL and the bark ANNIE
JOHNSON, and 3 years^ago went into the fine steel bark, RODERICK DHU.
WJien Captain Rock and others purchased the RODERICK DHUshe was a British
ship, but he changed her rig and put her under the Hawaiian flag. Although
he has taken to farming, Captain Rock will not turn his back altogether on the
sea as he still retains his interests in at least a dozen vessels.

Captain Johnson of the bark SANTIAGO who succeeds Captain Rock on
the RODERICK DHU, is one of the ablest of the present generation of ship mas
ters. He was formerly mate of the brig LURLINE and then succeeded Captain
Rock as master of the HARVESTER. From that vessel he was promoted to
the bark SANTIAGO and now he commands the RODERICK DHU]

sch. EDWARD LEWIS 47 tons

sch. FAIRY QUEEN 832 "

bk EMMA AUGUSTA 285 "

sch. MARTHA W. TUFT 173 "

sch. PREMIER 307.69 "

shp. SUMATRA 1,015 "

shp. DETROIT 1494 tons

shp. LEVI G. BURGESS 1536 "

bk. HARVESTER 1428 "

s. s. DAISY KIMBALL (st/schr. , 1892)

bk. ANNIE JOHNSON 947 "

bk. RODERICK DHU 1642 "

189

Captain Cliarles Rock

Interview of 'Rod C. Fischer, 158
Santa Clara Avenue, Oakland, Ca. ,
by Roger Olmsted, 4 June 1957.

In the '70's Rock oivned a scow scJwoner* and on one sloiv trip
daivn to S. F. during these years ivith a load of sand, the crew were as
usual playing poker in the cabin. Rock got into an argument ivith the
cook, ** Wm. Matson, over a ten cent bet, and some harsh words passed
between them, ivith the result that when they landed in S. F. Matson
gathered his belongings together and left, despite the fact tJiat Rock had re
pented. (He was like tJiat, says Fischer.)

""•*"'

Matson found that he might command one of Spreckel's vessels
trading to the Hawaiian Islands if he could raise the money to buy an interest
in her. *** Lacking the cash, he returned to the scow and asked Rock to help
him out. Rock put up $4, 000. Rock continued to sliqre in Matson' s enter
prises: he tuent into the. oil business ivith Matson, ivas a director of Honolulu
Oil: in later years he was port captain for Matson.

Rock was born in Siveden, one of a large family (his father married
tltree times). His real name was Sandberg, but after his arrival in the U. S. ,

* An account in the Hawaii Herald, 10/6/98 gives Capt. Rock's
first command as the schooner EDWARD LEMS. Probably
the vessel in this incident. The EDWARD LEWIS is listed at
47 tons in 1876 list of San Francisco schooners.

* * Note on Matson as cook; cook on tJie scows was usually the
last man aboard, and scow crews were frequently deep-water
sailors on the beach; they regarded sailing in a "bay scow" as
a change of pace and something of a lark. Thus, Matson' s position
in the Fischer yarn is not as unlikely as it sounds.

*** Note on Spreckels' vessel: most likely the three-mast schooner
EMMA CLAUDINA, the first Spreckels vessel in ivhich Matson
owned an interest. Five years later Matson invested again with
Spreckels, this time in the brigantine LURLINE. EMMA CLAUDINA
was built in 1882.

page - 2 igo

a Swedish friend convinced him that he should Anglicize his name to "Rock. "
He left school at 13 (c. 1854) and ran away to Germany. His family, which
ivas ivell-to-do ivas upset, and his father followed him and brought him home.
However, Rock ran aivay again the next year, and eventually wound up on
the West Coast, in the "Sandivich Islands trade. " In 1924, at the age of 83,
he fell doivn the basement stairs and broke his neck, and died ten days later.
(He had locked up the house, turned out all of the lights, then stepped through
the wrong door in the dark. )

The RODERICK DHU was his last and favorite ship (Rod Fischer is
named after her), and when he retired to the port captain's job he turned her
over to Pete ("Dog-face") Johnson. Apparently he ivas associated with Mat-
son in all of his later commands — HARVESTER, RODERICK DHU, ANNIE
JOHNSON. Fischer can recall Rock getting up late at night, hitching up the
team, and driving over to the Matson oil tanks at Alameda Point (site of Todd
shipyard) ivhen a vessel was due in; there ivas little available in the way of
navigational assistance, and it was helpful to have somebody ashore with a
lantern.

On the tug Copt. Chas. Rock: Rock had no -financial connection
with Peterson, and thejiame of the tug was an attempt on the part of the
latter to get the Matson towing business. (Fischer remembers tliat the incident
was considered quite a joke in the Rock household. ) The other Peterson boats
were named PETERSON No. 1, PETERSON No. 5, etc.

APPENDIX H

191

Capt. Charles Rock, one of the parties who purchased the Burgess
in 1887, had been sailing on the Pacific Coast as master some five
years in the -Sumatra and Detroit. In 1891 he sold his interest in the
Burgess to Capt. John O. Youngren and subsequently bought into
and commanded the barks Han-ester and Roderick Dim. Later he
sailed for Capt. William Matson in the Annie Johnson, and on re
tiring, made his home in Alameda, Cal., where he died about 1926.

Capt. John O. Youngren, who bought Captain Rock's interest in
the Burgess, commanded her for twelve years after which he had the
bark Santiago in the San Francisco-Honolulu passenger and freight
service for a short time. He then took command of the steamer Enter
prise, engaged in the same trade, and served in her as master twenty-
five years, a record as to time of service for a shipmaster in one vessel,
and during all that time he never had an accident. The Captain retired
from sea life in 1927 and now, at the age of seventy-three years, is in
good health and living in San Francisco. In 1858, when-ten years of
age, he had come to this country in the ship Fleetfo'rd, immediately
thereafter shipping as deck boy on the ship Sumatra, Capt. John
Mullin, and continued in that vessel until Captain Mullin took com
mand of the new ship Paul Revere in 1876. Captain Youngren staid
with Captain Muilin and after making three voyages in the Revere,
went from New York to San Francisco as boatswain of the ship. Eu
reka. On arrival on the Pacific Coast he determined to remain there
and after making a number of voyages in schooners, coastwise, and to
Honolulu, bought into the Burgess. In that ship he was succeeded by
his brother Capt. -Jan O. Youngren, who had previously been master
of the bark Gatherer. When the Burgess was sold to cannery inter
ests, Capt. Jan O. Youngren was given command of the steamer
Hyades, engaged in the Honolulu trade. During the World War he
served in the transport service. He died in the Army Hospital at
Livermore, Cal., in 1928 at the age of sixty years.

Account of ship LEVI G. BURGESS in
F.C. Matthew's American Merchant Ships,
1850-1900, Series II, Salem 1931.

APPENDIX I

192

BVIJ .S OF CLYDE

It must have been the third morning out of San Francisco, before dawn, with a
strong northwest wind blowing out of a cloudless sky. The stars had faded, but in the
Venus, the Morning Star, glittered and sparkled. A moon past full still hung in the western sky.
Deeply loaded, steering a southerly course, the old barkentine S.N. CASH i was hurrying on, a
high following sea boosting her speed on her road to the northeast trades and a destination in
the Marques

"As soon as you have drunk your coffee," the mate on watch said to me, "go aloft
and loose the skysail. She can stand it

I climbed the hundred and thirty odd feet to the skysail yard, the highest sail in
the ship. I cast off the gaskets and the sail billowed out in the strong wind. Down on deck my
watchmate and the mate hoisted the yard to set the sail. I lingered for a moment.

It is always a great sight from up that high — water rushing along the ship's side,
a school of porpoises gamboling ahead of the frothy bow wave, and the wide white wake behind.
A couple of gooneys, the brown albatross of the North Pacific, were sailplaning forth and back
across our track.

Before descending to the deck, I cast my eyes around the vast horizon. The sea
empty. Or so 1 first thought. But there where the sun was going to rise, there against those
pink clouds, a sail was visible. Rapidly this sail — sails — raised themselves over the rim of the
horizon until the whole ship stood revealed.

From the direction in which she was first seen, and the course she was steering,
my shipmates knew her to be one of the Associated Oil Company's sailing tankers, either
MARION CHILCOTT or iM i s OF CLYDF. The two of them regularly carried fuel oil in bulk from
near Santa Barbara to Honolulu. As the minutes passed we could make out four masts instead
of three and so knew this to be the FALLS OF CLYDE.

All sail was set; her cotton canvas gleamed white in the morning sun. We assem
bled aft, the captain and the mates, the watch on deck and the watch below, even the cook,
just to admire her as she crossed our course astern. Her sleek brown hull was ornamented at
the bow with a graceful figurehead, a lady in white, who with unseeing eyes gazed out over the
path ahead.

The FALLS was on her best sailing point, making two knots to our one. She seemed
to skim the tops off the whitecaps in that high northwest sea. Spindrift and spray rose over her
weather rail to wet the lower sails and form miniature rainbows as it drifted off to lee. At times
she rolled over toward us, showing her streaming decks and the water cascading off
her fo'c's'lehead and rushing out of freeing ports and scuppers; she was deep laden and showing
scant freeboard.

She dipped her flag thrice as a greeting and farewell, as was customary in ships of
sail, and we hauled down our colors three times in reply. So the FAI i s <>i ( i > m passed on
and was soon lost to sight. There was no time to be wasted in the age of wind-driven ships.
Little did I know then, in 1909, a lad of nineteen, that in the years to come my life would be
closely bound to this majestic beauty of the se Fred K. Klebingat

A

A S/'/( /,!/ SE< IK>\ "I "( EANS, VOLl Ml \' MKI 'KI.K 1

Prepared »iih ihf collaboration of Ktirl Kttrtiim. />.- • Maritime Museum

The things an old sailor does for his ship

By CAPTAIN FRED K. KLEBINGAT

FAI.I.S OF CI.YOIE

There wax many a shellback used to praise / Her turn of speed in the old-time days. ic. Fux-smiti»

WHENEVER sailing ship men meet on the
Pacific coast and the subject of conversa
tion turns to the days of sail, someone
sooner or later will mention the FALLS
OF CLYDE; he will speak with pleasure
of the days when he sailed in her, and
there is an affection, as if he spoke of
an old friend. And well he may, she was
a handy ship in a pleasant trade, good
food and good pay, considering the times.

The FALLS OF CLYDE was built of iron
as a four-masted ship in 1878 by Russell
& Co. at Port Glasgow, Scotland, the
first one of the Falls Line of Wright,
Graham & Co. She was 1,748 net tons,
with a length of 266 feet, beam of 40 feet,
and a depth of 23 feet 5 inches. Most
fittingly, she was named after the falls
of that stream on whose bank she was
built. Her early days were spent in the
Calcutta trade. Although she was not
lucky with her passages, she made herself
an early name for speed. Captain C.
Anderson, who commanded her under
British flag, claimed that she was one of
the fastest ships afloat.

In 1898 she was sold to Captain Wil
liam Matson, the founder of the Matson
Navigation Co. She hoisted Hawaiian
colors, and when Hawaii became Ameri
can territory she came under American
registry. Captain Matson reduced her to
a four-masted bark. Her jiggermast was
lengthened by fitting a wooden extension
to the heel of the mast, and of course
new standing rigging was fitted. She car
ried single gallant and royals, a leg-

FALLS OF CLYDE as ship, 1898 or earlier.

o'-mutton spanker and ringtail topsail.
On a long jib-boom she carried four head-
sails, she had no staysails between fore
and main and main and mizzen (at the
time I was chief mate in her at least),
between jigger and mizzen she carried
a jigger and also middle staysail. Under
the Matson house flag she was com
manded by Captain Charlie Matson, who
was no relative of Captain William Mat-
son, but who hailed from the same home
town in Sweden. She ran regularly in the
San Francisco-Hilo, Hawaii run, carry
ing passengers, general cargo, and live
stock, returning to the coast with sugar.
In 1907 the Matson Navigation Co.
turned the sailing vessels FALLS OF

CLYDE, MARION CHILCOTT CX KILBRAN-

NON, MONTEREY CX CYPROMENE, SANTI
AGO and RODERICK DHU over to the
Associated Oil Co. of San Francisco,
which converted them into tankers.

MONTEREY, SANTIAGO and RODERICK

DHU were rigged down to barges, but

FALLS OF CLYDE and MARION CHILCOTT

continued to run under sail.

It may be of interest to know how the
FALLS OF CLYDE was fitted as a tanker.
A fore-and-aft bulkhead was riveted in
the midships to the height of her 'tween
deck beams, which were plated with steel
to about ten feet of either ship's side.
Here a vertical bulkhead extended up to
the main deck, which was covered with
steel over the tanks, although the middle
of the deck, below which in the 'tween
decks there was room for dry cargo, was
planked with wood. There were ten
tanks, five on either side. The tank
hatches were near the bulwarks, five to
starboard and five to port. The forward
bulkhead was about in the middle
between the fore and main masts, while
the after bulkhead was about ten feet
ahead of the jiggermast. There were no
cofferdams. Heavy steel struts braced
the forward and after bulkheads to keel
son and stringers. On the bottom of the
tanks on either side there was an eight
and a six inch pipeline, the larger for
cargo and the smaller line for ballast. The
reach rods of cargo and ballast valves
extended to the inside of the tank
hatches. An oil-fired Scotch boiler in the
forward 'tween deck supplied steam to

This part originally appeared as the article "The 'Falls of Clyde' " by Captain F. Klebingat, in The Annual Dog Watch, No. 14, 1957. pub
lished by the Ship/overs' Society of Victoria. for the Ship/overs' Societies of Australia. It is reproduced by courtesy of the Society, with editorial
modifications by Karl Kortum.

from loyalty or in friends hip, or just

two double-actii umps in the for-

'eam winch driving the

windlass, also the winch in the donkev

i mounted

in the ' I he boiler was fitted with

a double slack, painted company colors,

white with black top. and a hlacl-

on either side. Mam .1 time one was

asked it the ship was fitted with an aux-

it looked that way. Her

"HI barrels, but

we never loaded more than 1 7.500 barrels
of fuel oil. besides w hich we carried about
1 .200 steel drums of 100 gallons cap
tilled with gasoline, in the 'tween deck.
While mi, uted Oil Co.'s own

ership, the hull was painted brown with
a red lead boot topping, masts were a
kind of flesh color, houses white, lower
bulwarks red. top of bulwarks white,

red lead.

Her teak brightwork was always clean
and oiled, and we did not forget to polish
the brass. She was never stinted for gear;
coils of rope and reels of wire were there,
to be used when needed.

Ceptain Fred K. Kleblngat was born near
Kiel. Germany, in 1889. When young Fred
decided on a seafaring career, his father got
lim a job in ihe Bremen full-rigged ship D.H.
WATJEN. He rounded Cape Horn in the dread
winter of 1905 when ice pushed unusually far
north from the Antarctic and pales were at
their worst. The well-handled WATJEN fared
Better than other ships: the saga of the BRITISH
ISLES that year, with men injured, washed
overboard, and losing limbs to frostbite was
set forth by Captain H.S. Jones in the memo
rable book. The Cape Htirn DrceJ. Fred
Klebinpat was in PLsapua. Chile, when the
BRITISH ISLES limped in.

"I rcaii/cJ at an early dale that Ihere must
be some seafaring going on where one did not
have to round Cape Horn in the middle of
the Southern winter. . . ." Captain Klebingat
wrote in later years. He found it on the Pacific
Coasl in lumber schooners and barkcntines
and rose to command, although his first trip
as capiain was from Kobe to Manila in an
exotic old Dutch bark, leak over iron ribs,
with a cargo of empty gin bottles and carboys
of acid on deck. "Reckless Ross" Millman.
the first man to ride a motorcycle around the
inside of a barrel, traveled as passenger (his
cycle and barrel were in the hold) — he had
to get to Manila by carnival time. That was
in I9IR: in 1919 Captain Klebincat look com
mand of the four-masted schooner MELROSE
and continued in her until the mid-twenties:
the MELROSE was the last regular South-
seaman out of San Francisco, carrying lumber
to Fiji and Tonga and returning with copra
from Rotuma. Tonga. Niuafoo (Tin Can
Island), and Niuatohutabu. The Captain sub
sequently spent many years as master of large
schooner yachts in South Sea voyaging, com
manded Liberty ships and tankers during
World War 1 1 in both the Atlantic and Pacific,
and. in 1969. at the age of eighty, skippered
the motorship coos BAY in the coastwise
lumber trade.

which must have been a composite bark,
in which he mostly engaged in the coast
wise trade around Australia. Swan River.
iwin. Hobart. Melbourne, and
Adelaide he described to me. and though
quite a stranger in Australian
waters. I became rather familiar with
them in these conversations — the tribula
tions of beating around the I.eeuvvin, the
rs of Ha- md the stormy

His next command was the composite
hark I-\K vv \s. owned in Newcastle,

South Wales. He seems to have

,-d quite a bit in the South Sea trade,
as he told me about visiting Tahiti, the
Carolines, and New Guinea. In 1893 she

wrecked on Waikiki Beach at
Honolulu. Seemingly the underwriters
abandoned her. and Captain Smith sal
vaged her after buying the wreck,
repaired her. and renamed her the
\ \i A. Her end came in 1903.
stranding on Topolobampo Bar in the
Gulf of California, and she became

\s n was the fault of the M
pilot. C'aptain Smith gave his wife power
of attorney and sent her to Mexico C ity
to sue the Mexican Government, he
meanwhile shipping as chief mate of the
MARION run cot r to supply the needed
funds. She won tru >ome years

later he was put in charge of the oil barge
sAMiAiio. and again in 1913 Associated
Oil put him in charge of the i \i t s 01
( l >i)i-. He continued as master of her
even after she was sold to George W.
McN'ear in about 1919, and made two
i her to Europe with oil. He

ied in 1921. just previous of her last
trip under sail to Bueno in her

return the ship was sold to the General
Petroleum Co. of L.os An?.-

.1 barge I think Captain
'Smith died shortly after that.

I he Associated Oil Co.. and its general
manager. Mr. Walter E. Buck, took
pride in the upkeep of their fleet, and
especially of the i M i s ni u VDI-, but
mbody could have been more proud of
he looks of his command than the cap-
ain. He insisted that the mast trucks be
inishcd in gold li <\ only had can-

.nt gaskets but they were lettered

.vith the company monogram. The

-I \KION rmuoTi li iight pane

md replaced it with canvas: this would

.iptain Smith. When the

i •> MI had a similar accident, he would

lot rest until a piece of fancy etched

uth the original curve was fitted
gain in the skylight. In 1913 the i

iouled bv an intcrisland

steamer, which all but demolished the
figurehead. Captain Smith badgered the
company until he was ordered to replace

well-
known ship carver, was commissioned
to reproduce the figure and the tw<
reliefs showing the Chile halls
weie mounted abaft the hem of the lady's
skirt on either side. Ihe rest of the trail
hoard was not damaged. This, withou.
doubt, was the last figurehead

icisco. I he captain

must have suspected me of having some
artistic ability, as it was not long aftei
I joined the ship that he asked me if I
would he able to paint the bas-reh
the Clyde halls in natural colors and gold-
leaf the lady's necklace and the hem of
her skirt. In consequence, many hours
were spent on a stage over the
how. dolling up the figurehead so that
it would come up to the Old Man's expec
tations.

•tain Smith was one ot th.
men I have been shipmate with: his
weather predictions were mostly uncan
nily accurate. His lessons about handling
sailing vessels in hurricanes stood me in
good stead many a time.

Although the Old Man had been
from Scotland donki s. he never

lost his Scottish brogue, and he used to
roll his R's and at times he would insert
this letter where none belonged. Refer
ring to a sailmaker's palm, he won!

vorr par-r-rm." He would fre
quently refer to the ship as "The gir-r-rul
with the eyr-run fe/." or that is the way

Chief Mate Klebingat and Captain Smith
taking noon sight under the spanker boom.

Adermann

The things an old sailor does for his ship

By CAPTAIN FRED K. KLEBINGAT

PAI J.S OF CLYDIE

There wax many a shellback used to praise / Her turn of speed in the old-time da y

WHENEVER sailing ship men meet on the
Pacific coast and the subject of conversa
tion turns to the days of sail, someone
sooner or later will mention the FALLS
OF CLYDE; he will speak with pleasure
of the days when he sailed in her, and
there is an affection, as if he spoke of
an old friend. And well he may, she was
a handy ship in a pleasant trade, good
food and good pay, considering the times.

The FALLS OF CLYDE was built of iron
as a four-masted ship in 1878 by Russell
& Co. at Port Glasgow, Scotland, the
first one of the Falls Line of Wright,
Graham & Co. She was 1,748 net tons,
with a length of 266 feet, beam of 40 feet,
and a depth of 23 feet 5 inches. Most
fittingly, she was named after the falls
of that stream on whose bank she was
built. Her early days were spent in the
Calcutta trade. Although she was not
lucky with her passages, she made herself
an early name for speed. Captain C.
Anderson, who commanded her under
British flag, claimed that she was one of
the fastest ships afloat.

In 1898 she was sold to Captain Wil
liam Matson, the founder of the Matson
Navigation Co. She hoisted Hawaiian
colors, and when Hawaii became Ameri
can territory she came under American
registry. Captain Matson reduced her to
a four-masted bark. Her jiggermast was
lengthened by fitting a wooden extension
to the heel of the mast, and of course
new standing rigging was fitted. She car
ried single gallant and royals, a leg-

FALLS OF CLYDE as ship, 1898 or earlier.

o'-mutton spanker and ringtail topsail.
On a long jib-boom she carried four head-
sails, she had no staysails between fore
and main and main and mizzen (at the
time I was chief mate in her at least),
between jigger and mizzen she carried
a jigger and also middle staysail. Under
the Matson house flag she was com
manded by Captain Charlie Matson. who
was no relative of Captain William Mat-
son, but who hailed from the same home
town in Sweden. She ran regularly in the
San Francisco-Hilo. Hawaii run, carry
ing passengers, general cargo, and live
stock, returning to the coast with sugar.
In 1907 the Matson Navigation Co.
turned the sailing vessels FALLS OF

CLYDE, MARION CHIL.COTT CX KILBRAN-

NON, MONTEREY CX CYPROMENE, SANTI
AGO and RODERICK DHU over to the
Associated Oil Co. of San Francisco,
which converted them into tankers.

MONTEREY, SANTIAGO and RODERICK

DHU were rigged down to barges, but

FALLS OF CLYDE and MARION CHILCOTT

continued to run under sail.

It may be of interest to know how the
FALLS OF CLYDE was fitted as a tanker.
A fore-and-aft bulkhead was riveted in
the midships to the height of her 'tween
deck beams, which were plated with steel
to about ten feet of either ship's side.
Here a vertical bulkhead extended up to
the main deck, which was covered with
steel over the tanks, although the middle
of the deck, below which in the 'tween
decks there was room for dry cargo, was
planked with wood. There were ten
tanks, five on either side. The tank
hatches were near the bulwarks, five to
starboard and five to port. The forward
bulkhead was about in the middle
between the fore and main masts, while
the after bulkhead was about ten feet
ahead of the jiggermast. There were no
cofferdams. Heavy steel struts braced
the forward and after bulkheads to keel
son and stringers. On the bottom of the
tanks on either side there was an eight
and a six inch pipeline, the larger for
cargo and the smaller line for ballast. The
reach rods of cargo and ballast valves
extended to the inside of the tank
hatches. An oil-fired Scotch boiler in the
forward 'tween deck supplied steam to

This part originally appeared as the article "The 'Falls of Clyde' " by Captain F. Klehinxat, in The Annual Dog Watch, No. 14, 1957, pub
lished by the Shiplovers' Society of Victoria, for the Ship/overs' Societies of Australia. It is reproduced by courtesy of the Society, with editorial
modifications by Karl Kortum.

from loyalty or in friendship, or jnsl

ouble-acting cargo pumps in the for
ward hold, a steam winch driving the
windlass, also the winch in the donkey
and a s k.w. generator mounted
in the lireroom. I he boiler ssas fitted w ilh
a double slack, painted company colors,
white with black top. and a black
on either side. Mans a time oru
asked it" the ship was titled with an aux-
IC, as it looked that way. Her
19.000 barrels, but

we never loaded more than 17.500 barrels

ot't'uel oil. besides which we carried about

: 00 gallons capacity.

filled with gasoline, in the 'tween deck.
While under Associated Oil Co. \ own
ership, the hull was painted brown with
lead boot topping, masts were a
kind of Hesh color, houses white, lower
bulwarks red. top of bulwarks white,
steel decks black, w red lead.

Her teak brightwork was always clean
and oiled, and we did not forget to polish
the brass. She was never stinted tor gear:
t rope and reels of wire were there,
to be used when needed.

i Yl>l

and her running mate MARION < mi
came i nciscoonly to refit. They

loaded oil at an outside port near Santa

•iota.

quite safe in summertime, although even
in winter the ships managed to hold on.
as it was somewhat sheltered by dense
kelp beds. They loaded alwavs for
Honolulu, returning in ballast. No tugs
•.-quired. thes sailed up to the wharf
or made sail to the prevailing westerly
winds. When I joined the i 1 VDI as chief
mate early in 1916 the run was changed;
she then traded regularly to

fuel oil and gasoline in
drums for Honolulu, and returning with
molas!

iuch for the ship, and now I must

tell you about her commander, when I

'•>tain William Smith was

a native of Peterhe. nd. When

. d the ship he must have been about

line sailing ship

master, he had his first command, the
composite bark i i OI>DI v when h.

,1. Anchoring at Woosung Bar

[Shanghai 1. she was caught in a typhoon.

The masts were cut to prevent her from

: this she stranded.

tin Smith and his chief mate were

captured bs Chinese pirates and held for

- ued by i

i i His nc\i command w
of which he told me but little, the
sailing the China
r^^^^MHBHlm* the

which must have been a composite bark,
in which he mostly engaged in the coast-
<ade around Australia. Swan River,
•iwin. Hobart. Melbourne, and
Adelaide he described to me. and though
I was quite a stranger in Australian
waters. I became rather familiar with
them in these conversations — the tribula
tions of beating around the I.eeuwin. the
dangers of Bass Strait, and the stormy

His next command was the composite-
bark i'\K WAN. owned in Newcastle.
South Wales. He seems to have
cd quite a bit in the South Sea trade.
as he told me about visiting lahiti. the
Carolines, and New Guinea. In 1893 she
was wrecked on Waikiki Beach at
Honolulu. Seemingly the underwriters
abandoned her. and Captain Smith sal
vaged her after buying the wreck,
repaired her. and renamed her the
\ VIA. Her end came in 1903,
stranding on Topolobampo Bar in the
Gulf of California, and she became a total
loss As it was the fault of the Mexican
pilot. Captain Smith gave his wife power
of attorney and sent her to Mexico Citv
to sue the Mexican Government, he
meanwhile shipping as chief mate of the
MARK ii to supply the needed

funds. She won tru .nne sears

later he was put in charge of the oil barge
s \N 1 1 \i,o. and again in 1913 Associated
Oil put him in charge of the i MIS 01
( l VDI.. He continued as master of her
even after she was sold to George W.
McNear in about 1919, and made two
es in her to Furope with oil. He
od in 1921, just previous of IK
trip under sail to Buenos Aires. On her
return the ship was sold to the G
Petroleum Co. of I.os Angeles, and
rigged down as a barge. I think Captain
Smith died shortlv after that.

The Associated Oil Co. . and its general
manager. Mr. Walter R. Buck, took
pride in the upkeep of their fleet, and
especially of th i YIM . but

nobody could have been <ud of

the looks of his command than the cap
tain. He insisted that the mast trucks be
finished in gold leaf: we not only had can-
mt gaskets but they weie lettered
with the company monogram. The
MARION time on lost a skvlight pane
and replaced it with canvas; this would
.iptain Smith. When the
r i YDI had a similar accident, he would
not rest until a piece of fancy etched
glass with the original curve was fitted
again in the skylight. In 1913 the i

fouled by an interislatul

steamer, which all but demolished the

lead. ( aptain Smith badgered the
company until he was ordered to replace

!i. I osejos. San Fianeisco's well-
known ship carver, was commissioned
to reproduce the figure and the tw
reliefs showing the Clsde r alls svhich

mounted abaft the hem of the lady's
skirt on either side. The rest of the trail
board was not damaged. This, without
doubt, was the last figurehead
carved in San Francisco. The captain
must have suspected me of having some
artistic ability, as ii was not long after
I joined the ship that he asked me if I
would he able to paint the bas-re'i
the Clyde Falls in natural colors and gold-
leaf the lady's necklace and the hem of
her skirt. In consequence, many hours
ont on a stage over the
bow. dolling up the figurehead so that
it would come up to the Old Man's expec
tations.

•tain Smith was one of th
men I have been shipmate with: his
weather predictions were mostly uncan
nily accurate. His lessons about handling
sailing vessels in hurricanes stood me in
good stead many a time.

Although the Old Man had been aw as
from Scotland donk> i, he never

lost his Scottish brogue, and he used to
roll his R's and at times he would insert
this letter where none belonged. Refer
ring to a sailmaker's palm, he won!
"Ciet son par-r-rm." He would fre
quently refei to the ship as "The gir-r-rul
with the eyr-run fe/." or that is th.

Chief Mate Klebingat and Captain Smith
taking noon sight under the spanker boom.

because it's in him to do it, have nothing

it sounded. Sometimes, when we were
bothered with a more than average
amount of head winds, he would blame
the ship for it: he would call her the most
uncomplimentary names in the Scottish
dialect — "You would br-reakthe hear-r-t
of an eyr-run hor-r-rse." he would say.
Or if particularly exasperated: "She's a
who-o-or that has lost her profession."
But then he would tell the ship consol
ingly, ". . . but ye're a good gir-r-rul just
the same." However, when the wind was
fair and the CLYDE was going fourteen
knots or more. Captain Smith was more
cheerful. He would stand at the weather
rail, pat it, and say, "Be good, little gir-
r-rul. there is another mile left in you."
Captain Smith was a strong Pres
byterian, but like many others bred in
Scotland he needed at times some liquid
stimulant — not the usual Highland Dew.
however; no, his brand was "Old Taylor
Yellow Label." an American variety of
the same thing. At such times he used
to talk to me about the evils of drink in

others, especially the men before the
mast — not that I could see that they were
addicted to excessive drinking, in fact,
I considered them to be rather on the
sober side. In Honolulu I never saw
much of the Old Man, he being ashore
before the ship was properly secured, and
he would show up with the tug on leaving:
but at San Francisco, when a little
stimulated with his favorite beverage, he
would "hard time" the chief mate if he
could. I never saw him carrying any sea-
stock, and never saw him stagger or
unable to sign his "WILLIAM SMITH, Mas
ter," with an easy flowing hand.

It is hard to say what made the Old
Man leave the ship. It must have been
his health, he always looked somewhat
frail, hands and feet rather crippled by
a long siege of rheumatism.

She was a handy ship, the mate and
one watch could make her do their bid
ding, at no time did we ever call all hands.
While in the Hawaii trade she carried
master, two mates, pumpman, carpenter.

FALLS OF CLYDE deep-laden with
oil, in Monterey Bay, 1917.

Fred Klebingat, as chief mate of
FALLS OF CLYDE in 1916-17, makes
his morning rounds. He looks aloft to
see what attention the complex web
of sails and rigging will need this
particular day -always the chief
mate's first concern at sea in a sail
ing ship. When the CLYDE was a sail
ing tanker and loaded, he recalls,
"There was always water on deck,
therefore I mostly went barefoot."

Crew on the jib-boom, FALLS OF CLYDE.

to do \\-ith pay, promotion, or pnhlicit^. ,•<; Remembrance K

i ten A.H.'s. In the
Atlant

the ir .'umelled lil t. the

uul his five men on watch would
no trouble going about.
B lhe\ had to step li\el\ < >n'

ing in close quarters we woulo *

up and haul the und with steam.

and it u was night we used :

deci- 'iiake work ea

•n her. th<. s run

liles — that was running
had 1 1 days from Honolulu

and ttu

.n 24 hours. Her best
sailing point was with the wind on her

She travelled 12 knots
and 1 have seen her logging 14 an

a time. In the two vears 1
the vessel I never saw a ship which could
keep up with her.

:\ Petroleum Co. rigged
the old ship down as a barge, she spent
the PI a floating

filling station in Ketchikan. A

Secmelv moored to their dock, slu

up and down with the tides, a convenient

ng fishing bo

need of fuel. ( • Her mas;

'lit. her figurehead is nov

•i. but. I believe, then-
much change in her hull. Although I have
the ship smce 1 left her. 1
share the view of that Pittsburgh linn
advertising iron pipe and its virt::
showed a sketch of the old ship as she
is now. praising the quality of the iron
in her hull, and it said: "You can rig her

in and she would be as tit an
worthy as ever " Yes. that is so. but as
( . f-ovSmit!

c'/.

•

•

,(//.

A photograph that became famous:
Hans Henrik Andersen at the wheel of
FALLS OF CLYDE, taken by able sea
man Ernest Adermann and often
reproduced.

How my old friend,

the FALLS OF CLYDE,

was saved...

hy Captain l-'n-J K.

IOKI of her rebirth began in
when the ship arrived in Seattle in

icneral Petroleum < now

Mobil Oil. had no further use for her as

tchell,

owner of a machine shop at Ketchikan.

bought the ship. He bought her on

." but one of the thoughts at the

back of his mind was that she might

iiuseum ship.

id never lost contact

with i! although more

than ! I was

chief mate aboard. So when I read she
had been towed to Seattle and ni
in I ake Washington. I made it rm

r and

visit my old friend. All hy myself 1 wan-
: her stout hull. 1 opened one
of her tank hatches and was astounded.
Little 'ion showed, so little in

fact that I thought .. I knew

different) that those Scotch workmen
who built this hull I d up their

tools but •. hull had been

well taken id in the cabin she

looked as if mv former commandei
tain William Smith, had left th

I had the feeling that from the
cr keel was laid her buildei
the multitude who had manned h

nde in and loved this stout old hull.

On my return I told

karl kortum. Director of the Maritime

Museum, about m> ;xiard

the i i > m . Karl had

eaded tru ,>n ot the three-

cd ship n \ five

i! and be. 'ire of the

nt.

iid somebody to r

( i i I>| up again." Karl said, "and while
.it it let's see stu

•d ship, the way she l<
when she left OK ! have

to find her a h.

Karl w.i^

ingthi "i program

ncisco. he got in touch with
the marine superintendent <•

in about the i ; . but

npanv felt there was long Ir
in the old hull up in Alaska and they were
not particularly interested in disposing of

Midship Section. Sailing I anker
v*^ FALLS OF I

• 4 .3 < -»

• j ft,,, *„

,e**

Captain Klebingat's sketch of tank
arrangement for FALLS OF CLYDE.

her. San Francisco turned to the
BALCLUTHA instead, an easier proposi
tion because the masts and yards were
intact. When BALCLUTHA was put on dis
play and proved such a popular success
I wrote to Karl that we should keep our
eye on the FALLS OF CLYDE for similar
use.

Now that I had walked her decks again.
I had a feeling of urgency.

I quote from a memo that Karl Kortum
wrote in 1963 on what happened next:
/ /ir c i "i i)l would have made a good log
barge, pulp barge or, being internally
reinfon ed with tanks, would make a bet
ter than average breakwater for a log
boom on the inboard side of Vancouver
Island. That's where many a sailing ship
wound np-a temporary usage, because
mter gales sweeping up the Strait
of Georgia soon broke them into p.
Chapman & Flint' x si. PAUI \\-ux so dis
posed of at Oyster Bay: the poor old
wooden down-caster lasted only a few
seasons. I his was in the early I940's.
Two Crown /.ellerbach pulp barges-one
inner British full-rigged ship
RIVERSDAI i:, and the other the four-mast
bark COME i of London, latterly the JAMES
DO i \ \R-have been scuttled against the
island within the past two years [in 1961
ami 1963, respectively] to facilitate the
herding of logs. Neither of these hulls
had the internal strengthening of the

FA! I S OF CLYDE: the CLYDE Could be

expected to last somewhat longer in the
living-death role of breakwater.

Well, something had to he done, and
fast. l"l-'ti.sl" turned out to mean four
years.) The ship arrived in Seattle in
January of 1959. and before r/ie month
was on/, I suggested to the Los Angeles
Junior Chamber of Commerce, who had
written for suggestions about how to stan
a maritime museum, that they save the
FAI i s 01 (i ym instead. So Los Angele.s

was the first try. 1 1 here was a flurry of
interest in Seattle in March, but nothing
came ofil.) A chap by the name of Fergu
son in the Junior Chamber in Los Angeles
liked the idea, seemed to be a good
mover, and it went along for a while.
Then Ferguson was transferred hack
East by his firm. The CLYDE for Los
Angele.s began to falter. Correspondence
flew back and forth, and I went down
and gave a speech to the Junior
Chamber. T\\:o people showed up. FALLS
OF CLYDE was dead in Los Angeles by
the end of the year.

On the day that it died, I picked up
the phone and called the Executive Sec
retary of the Long Beach Chamber of
Commerce. Whoever that might be. Bill
Olesen of San Pedro had sent me a clip
ping from the Long Beach Independent,
dated September II, with a proposal to
the City Planning Commission to "Bring
back to Long Beach the old four-masted
ship PACIFIC out l N. formerly berthed
hereforyears." Well, the PACIFIC QUEEN
(which Long Beach had run out oj town
in 1952 in penultimate misunderstanding
between the carnival man who owned her
then and the Harbor Commission) had
been transformed into our BALCLUTHA
four years before, and had taken in from
admissions a shade under $400,000 in
that length of time. She wasn't for sale.
My pitch to the Chamber was that FALLS
OF Cl.\DEcouldhea BA.LCLUTHA.for their
waterfront if they moved fast and bought
the old hull before she was scrapped or
barged.

Thus began the long, alow wall: with
Long Beach. Fred Klebingat, former
chief mate of the FALLS OF CLYDI
begun writing me urging the ship's pre
servation in 1955, and he now joined the
marine artist Bob Weinstein and myself
in the frustrating love affair with this
southern city. It went on and on. The
months turned into years. The typewriter
clacked, the phone calls mounted. The
correspondence file grew three inches
thick. The FALLS OF CLYDE still tugged
at her moorings up at Seattle.

Long Beach is blessed with incredible
wealth for this sort of thing springing out
of the caverns filled with oil right under
the city I they were now formally propos
ing both a maritime museum and a
world's fair). But for all that, something
was missing-l would say that the com
munity just did not understand the FALLS
OF CLYDE. / tried to spur them and at
the same time salvage the ship from sud
den death status by telling other cities
about her . ..letters to Vancouver, to Oak

land, to Portland, to San Pedro, to
Astoria . . . the pile grew thicker. (Rolf
Klep in Astoria had an option on her for
five days, but there is no oil under
Astoria, and he bought a lightship for
the Columbia River Maritime Museum
instead.)

The Long Beach FALLS OF CLYDE
effort finally collapsed in May of this year
[1963]. The high point. I suppose, had
been when $1,500 in option money was
put down on the ship: $500 from Fred
Klebingat of San Pedro. $1,000 from Bill
Roth (Captain Matson's grandson) oj
San Francisco, the deal put together by-
prodigies of effort on the part of Bob
Weinstein of Los Angeles. But the option
was allowed to expire. That was in I960.

Mitchell, the machine-shop man from
Ketchikan, had been inordinately patient
during these years of effort. But the ship
had run up a big moorage bill, and had
the towage hill from Alaska against her,
too. By late spring of 1963, Mitchell had
to sell to someone, or suffer foreclosure
from either the bank in Alaska or the
lowing company in Seattle.

At this juncture I was writing to the
least likely pros/>ects-a yacht broker
from San Diego phoned about a fer
ryboat: I told him about the FALLS OF
CLYDE. A speculator who wanted to start
up a coastwise excursion boat came in;
he had the backing of unrevcaled con
tractors in Contra Costa County-l told
him about the FALLS OF CLYDE
(headaches, hut fewer than in the
piissciiger-at-sca business). This gent
was memorable for his phrase "a piece
of the action" to describe whatever
shares he might arrange to hold in the
iron East Indiaman. The city of Lahaina
[on the island of Maui] had long toyed
with the idea of a restored whaling ship-ci
letter came in from Rear Admiral
Richard Black. I suggested instead the
FALLS OF CLYDE. / sent a signal to
Harold Huycke [the well-known mar
itime historian) that the ship looked like
being in trouble.

All the letters, all the telephone calls
for four long years had only one hope
in mind-finding the man (or combination
of men) who would see what the FALLS
OF CLYDE had been and what she could
be again. The right spark in the right
community.

The man at the end of the rainbow was
John Wright, a publicist and historian for
the Dillingham Corporation in Honolulu.
He had been a casual correspondent of
ours for some years on maritime histori
cal matters to do with the Hawaiian

/'/// a /<•/•

the miiil on (/ui: , nt mutter than

HI old hulk
with which hi that da:

/

.1 committee <hairman in Southern

'it north to Mitchell in

,1/y i>iiin no

•rt for purchase of the KM
t I > [)| from you. I I Jiil not

Html to hold up any further deals that
,i\' have pending. In talking to Roh
tein. however, he has told me tlnit
Mr. Kortum h, ed real i>

ship and quite possibly hits

will probably hear

from 'ig this i/i'

Thanks again ;

/• letter-!'

••mm Hawaii to the

mainland-* / a Coulter painting

coming up for auction in the Islands.

n plain fs

Honolulu as <i proper sell,'
l \M soi t i •> IM when I he gan my rounds
back in 1959. and I hud written letters
in f-'ebruai

Henry Kaiser, who had a development
there, and to Warren Roll, a news-
paper photographer front San K
who had gone down to work on the
Honolulu Star-Bulletin. \oth,-

Jack Johnson, veteran ship chandler on
the San Francisco waterfront, points out
to Captain Klebingat some gear he later
sent down to Honolulu as a donation for
FALLS OF CLYDE'S restoration.

j

FALLS OF CLYDE reaches Seattle, 1959, from Ketchikan where she had served as
a floating oil depot since 1922. Associated Press

either of thes,

strongly tell that at -itional

marit on shoui

in Ha

",aina ha, 'I this

in tht ! tctnally. the fifth, h,

' .Irian Raynaud of Scan:
in Honolulu in the fall , aid he

\ip into tli.
Bulletin. Like all the tries before K

painting

miter
thai Wright had written about poi :

a fid I ;> beatini:

:holisni in that, h,
hack (thanking him. inci
dentally, for the tip on the Coulti

•in Hawaiian h
itmstanct's just as perilous
lay; in June a ship called the I Al I s
m CLYD iiotild

•>rc<ikw(tt. ..</<;.

•'(// the pace of a hut
tropical st<>rm . 7 •
motion, and hi*

•day. \!<n

u-Bulletin & Advertiser. He wrote
a letter to the ( He mail,

ith Mai -
ammuniti

Kiiil h;id found ;i sound new friend for

Wright into:

Dr. Roland 1 orce. Director of the Hci-
IV Bishop Museum, and Boh
krauss. columnist for the Honolulu
tiser. Ki MI a rollicking,

ip campaign for the ship — da
s column talked about nothin:
Aku. the disc iockev . and Norman Reyes
onK()N\-u added theii \oices. Rn
ger. master of movie director John Ford's
yacht. \K\SI i mteer

bureau of vachtmg a Bank of

withhold tore

closure for another month. (A logging
company v.as standing by ready to buy
uttlinp when she came
under the hammer.) In Seattle. Harold
Huycke and his friend Captain Raynaud

•Inlcreslmgl) enough, in !he lellcr Ihal i-

nh ihe

. it pushed Ih;

offered to lend $10,000 of their own sav
ings to hold the ship if Honolulu was seri
ous. Honolulu IIY/.S serious . . . Matson
Navigation Company gave S5.000 and
Mrs. Lurline Roth, daughter of Captain
Matson, contributed generously. People
in all walks of life responded. Schoolchil
dren distributed tin cans with a slot in
the top, labeled "Join the crew! JAMS
OF ( i .YDE fund."

Bob Krauss reported in his column that
the fund drive went "over the top" on
June 29, 1963 — two days before the dead
line to meet the $18,950 mortgage. The
people of Hawaii owned the ship!

The United States Navy responded
and its tug MOCTOBI was detailed to tow
the ship to Hawaii. It was November and
a stormy passage, but the old ship weath
ered it well. After all. she was going
home.

1 was on the wharf at Honolulu when
the FALLS OF CLYDE arrived. Whistles
were blowing and the fire brigade made
a splendid display. Great plumes of water
shot into the air from the fireboat and
from trucks on an adjoining pier. As the
FAI i s OF CLYDE neared the wharf on that
day in November 1963. fair Hawaiian
ladies threw flowers on her decks. She
was made fast and the gangway put on.
Dressed in their royal robes, the
Hawaiian delegation boarded the ship
and climbed on the afterdeck. High-
ranking naval officers and many other
notables were there to greet her.

It was an impressive ceremony. The
Reverend Abraham Akaka said a prayer
and there was singing, as only Hawaiians
can sing. Dr. Force, on behalf of the
Bishop Museum which will sponsor the
restoration, thanked the U. S. Nav\ fol
lowing Ihe ship from Seattle to Honolulu.
I spoke last in my role as Chief Technical
Adviser for the restoration ahead.

I spoke on behalf of my friend, this
old ship. I expressed our gratitude to all
those people, rich and poor, who had
made this moment possible for both of
us. I predicted that the people of Hawaii
would restore the ship to her former grace
and beauty, and that she would become
a source of pride for all who saw her.
When 1 said all that, a lump came to my
throat and my voice broke. It is not given
to everyone to see his dream come true.

A multitude of volunteers sub
sequently began w ork on the ship without
But progress was slow, money did
not come in, interest in the ship waned.
It was only after the Bishop Museum
became sole owner of the ship about four
years ago, that the picture brightened and

funds became available. Dr. Force
engaged Captain Jim Kleinschmidt, for
merly with Myslic Seaport, to be in
charge of restoration. Jim is young and
energetic and he got things moving. The
chart house and cabin and the poop deck
have been restored. Four new iron lower
masts went into the ship, followed in due
course by their topmasts. My old friend
from sailing ship days. Jack Dickerhoff,
perhaps the last practicing master sailing
ship rigger in the world, has begun fitting
a spider web of shrouds and stays, all
cut to an exact fit from large and awkward
iron rigging wire. They say there are a
thousand rules of thumb in the sailing ship
riggers' trade and Jack must know them
all.

Meanwhile, Sir William Lithgow,
grandson of the man who built the CLYDE
(originally the firm was called Russell and
Co.. it is now Lithgow. Ltd.). has been
to Honolulu and taken a warm interest
in the ship. He has had his shipyard in
Glasgow roll steel sards and bands and
sent them to Honolulu — a donation that
I would put at something like $75,000.
Sir William has supplied brass binnacles,
bell and bell harp, and other antiquities.
The State of Hawaii has set aside Pier
Five as a permanent berth for the vessel.
She is clean and shipshape again and
receiving visitors. A few years from now
the FALLS OF ci YDE will be a hundred
years old. Her future is assured and here
she will lie — an Indiaman in her youth,
a pioneer in the Hawaii passenger trade
in mid-life, and subsequently a sailing oil
tanker plying between California and
Hawaii. She is the only ship with yards
on all four masts and flying the flag of
Hawaii that ever entered the Port of
Honolulu.

Recently I found a news item in the
Hilo Tribune of June 24, 1899, listing her
passengers during a turn-of-the-century
voyage:

The FAI i.s OF CLYDE, C. P. Matson mas
ter, arrived at Hilo on Thursday after
noon with the following passengers: A.
Oliver, B. F. Holland, H. Piper, P. C.
LeBlond, L. F. Lc Blond,- Win. Matron.
Cha.s. A. Gibson, J. S. Clark, l.illie B.
Matson, Emilie S. Gibson, A.
Humphries, Lurline Matson, ('has. P.
Gibson. Wilder Wright. She brought
freight to the value of $44,211.84. The
net tonnage of the CLYDE is 1740 tons.
A few days later the Hawaii Herald
itemized this cargo: it paints a picture
of bygone trade with the mainland:
The ship FAI i s OF CLYDE which arrived
last Thursday from San Francisco had

the following car^o: 616 bhls. flour. 21
pktjs. of beer. 1714 Ibs. su^ar, 301 cases
canned goods. 77 cases hats and caps.
2382 ctls. barley, 45 ctls. wheat. 48 pkgs.
paints and oils, 157 pki;s. groceries, pro
visions. 80 satks middlings. 815 bales
•>578 Ibs. bread, 70.162 feet lumber,
480 Ihx. lard, 1080 sacks of bran, 26 bales
dry gooils, 2745 Ibs. cracked corn, 395
Ibs. hops, 1083 Ibs. tobacco, 320 tons fer
tiliser. 200 bhls. and 850 sacks lime, 11
tons coal, 20 cs. whiskey. 18 cs. boots
and shoes. 7 rolls leather, 56 ctls. corn,
20 cs. drill's, 55 cs. soap. 20 cases hard
ware, 3 tanks acid. 109 coils rope. 500
Ibs. dried fruit. 4 cs. honey, 67 bbls. salt,
1688 Ibs. soda, 25 nudes, 207 Ibs. cheese.
25 reels wire. 474 Ibs. codfish, I con-.
12 sacks potatoes.. 28,789 Ibs. beans, 16
cs. + 26 bbls. salmon. 10 cs. candles,
781 Ibs. butter. 15 cs. meal, 500 Ibs.
pease. 100 Ibs. lea, 10 crates onions.
The same newspaper told about her
owner paying a visit to the islands:
William Matson managing owner of the
Matson Line of sailing vessels came
down on the FALLS OF CLYDF accom
panied by his wife and daughter. They
are the guests of J . A. Scons' 'Wainaku
Lawn.' This is Captain Malson's first
visit to Hilo in 18 months and he expres
sed surprise at the growth of the business
here and the number of new residents.
During his short stay here he will con
sider a proposition, which if carried out,
will be of great benefit to the businessmen
of Hilo.

We don't know what the proposition
was. but as the decades rolled by a great
line of steamers blossomed in the island
trade carrying the Matson flag with seven
stars in a circle — the seven sailing ships
the great shipowner started his business
with.

The Matson Navigation Company has
passed to new ownership but the FALI s
OF CLYDE, one of the stars on a flag that
flies over the most modern of container
ships, will quietly lie alongside a
Hawaiian wharf forever. The cargo in her
wrought iron hull will no longer be mules
and whiskey and codfish and a cow
but... history. I

APPENDIX J

200

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Tony Duquette notes re Mrs . Roth
Page 1

APPENDIX K 201

One ot the most creatively important commissions of my career began
with the design and execution ot a series ot fetes tor Mrs . William Roth.

In each case, these works encompassed a many -faceted and complex
arrangement including the design and execution ot tapestries, sculptures, paint
ings and ornamental lighting .

Mrs. Roth's great taste and sense ot arrangement was a plattorm to
support all these ditterent dimensions towards making an enchantment.

With Mabel Ah Sam, Mrs. Roth and I discussed the themes and the
flowers possible to use at the times planned. Then Mrs . Roth would go into
action with her gardners to organize and implement the planting and planning
so everything would be in bloom on time.

One year when we had planned large 17th century arrangements in the
manner ot the dutch painters, I especially wanted sunflowers and, as these are
never in a commercial market, Mrs . Roth agreed to plant them. On a trip to
Filoli for our over all organization, Mrs . Roth showed me a field of sunflowers .
I was dazzled and couldn't believe its size. In saying this to Mrs. Roth, she told
me this was only one ot 4 fields that had been planted to be sure we had them
flowering at the correct time. This is only one ot the many unforgettable moments
with this very great lady .

She also traveled to the Phillippines to arrange for the shipments of
dendrobia orchids of the correct colors to complement the specially woven silks
tor the tablecloths from Thailand.

Of tremendous importance to my career was an invention for her that I
named "Fabric Mosaic" tapestries . In planning one ot the balls for her grandchild,
Bren, I wanted to base its concept on the historic roots of the Matson legend -- the

Tony Duquette notes re Mrs . Roth
Page 2

202

Lurline sailing trom San Francisco to the Hawaiian Islands and its tremendous
importance to the development ot the islands . I wanted to dramatize and
capture in a sense the quality and teeling ot the Hawaiian King's feather capes .
In doing this, I used small pieces ot many tabrics applied one above the other
in a "feathered" manner. These tirst tapestries for Mrs . Roth became the
inspiration tor a great series ot tapestries for Nieman -Marcus in Dallas, the
Hilton Hawaiian Village Convention Center in Honolulu, the Sheraton Universal
Hotel in Los Angeles, the Ritz-Carlton in Chicago and many rrore in private
collections .

The images of Mrs. Roth, her gardens, her house and her family hav
constant and prominent place in my wife's and my heart.

These quickly composed notes will be used for the chaper in my own
book which will be devoted to her with our love and gratitude tor her appreciati
and belief!

Mrs. Roth didn't just commission these works, she was an integral p
of their production .

Christmases At
Filoli Recalled

203

APPENDIX L

By Ann Shaw

• "I remember the ficst^Christmas at Filoli,"
says Mrs. William P^RothVThat was in 1938.
That tirst year thai we arrived in Filoli, we had
just finished cocktails on Christmas Eve, and
were goi.ig in to dinner, which we always had in
the ballroom. All of a sudden we heard this
music. The children's choir from Woodside
came, and apparently th^y had always come
for the Bourns.

"We opened the door, and here were all
these little candles. I'd say about forty children
were there, all singing Christmas carols. So we
brought them into ths ballroom.

"The choir was such a happy surprise.
Nobody told me they were coming, so it was a
most terrific surprise.

"It was a new experience for Mr. Roth
and me. When we lived in San Francisco we
just had a quiet Christmas Eve dinner, no
Christmas carols.

"For years afterward, every Christmas
the children came from the village choir in
Woodside. They were adorable. Some of them
were just this high, you know.

"They sang everything, and generally
there was a new little star who sang especially
well."

Now there are just memories of Christ
mases past at Filoli for shipping heiress Mrs.
William P. Roth. She once presided as mistress
of one of the most fabulous estates in the San
Francisco Bay Area. An octogenarian now,
Mrs. Roth makes her home in nearby Hillsbor-
ough these days. She donated the forty-three
room Filoli home to the National Trust for
Historic Preservation. The William P. Roths of
the Matson Navigation Company lived in the
home from 1938 to 1975. They were the second
owners. . : i* .j. •.;.-.

The estate was built in 1916 by Irishman
William B. Bourn. Bourn was heir to the
Empire Gold Mine, and head of companies
which eventually became P G & E, Christian
Brothers Winery and the San Francisco Water
Department. Bourn called the estate Filoli,
short for his motto: Fight, Love, Live. The
Roths preferred to think the first syllable in
Filoli stood for fidelity rather than tight, ii
gave it a more peaceful sound.

"We always had the big tree — eighteen

feet — in the big room, and then another one in
the back study where we had presents. We
sometimes had another one in the hall. The
trees" were all cut fresh from the mountains.

|"We always hired a lady to decorate the
i.xcs. She'd com?, hrine her daughter, her son
and several young people. They'd have Christ
mas 'music Koing all day, and they'd decorate

the tree. It was a big tree. You'd put the things
near the bottom that the children couldn't
break, and then you'd go from there.

"No berries, no popcorn, because I didn't
like popcorn all over the floor. Just ornaments,
nice ornaments. I've saved them all throughout
the years.

"In the summer, it was always fragrant at

Filoli because of all the flowers picked from the
garden. But in December it was all the Christ- _
mas trees, the wonderful evergreen smell."

California Living Magazine

SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER & CHRONICLE

Sunday December 17, 1978

204
In its heyday, sixteen to twenty gardeners

lived on the estate. The gardens then featured,
and still do, seventeen acres of pampered
; camellias, pansies, tulips, and roses. Five
hundred and fifty bushes make up the elegant
rose garden of the Irish Georgian home.

"We had our own holly. 1 had holly trees
that were not in the formal part of the garden,
so they could be cut for the house. I especially
like the green and white holly. My gardeners
made all the wreaths for the house out of all the
material right out of Filoli. We had real holly
wreaths, and then the evergreen ones. We had
a wreath in every window, and they were all
home made.

"I also had candles in several rooms of the
home. They were in the living room, and we
generally had Christmas decorations on the
tables.

"Every room, every bedroom had a fire
place. They were all burning on Christmas
Eve."

The Filoli Estate", now open to the public
except during the winter months (tours will
resume in February), lies secluded near the
Crystal Springs Reservoir. Canadian geese
winter in a nearby wild area. Two herds of
deer, Irish Red Deer and Japanese Skin Deer,
forage through the grounds adjacent to and on
the more than 700-acre estate.

In the old carriage house near the home is
a unique collection of antique phaetons and
gigs. They were the property of Mrs. Roth. Her
primary interests, while at Filoli, were in
horticulture and horses. In fact, an entire room
wc.s set aside in the main house for the purpose
of housing the hundreds of trophies and rib
bons won by horses Mrs. Roth bred and raised
at her Why Worry Farm.

"When the children were little, generally
somebody got a horse for Christmas. The horse
would have to appear at the front door, and
then the child would try it out. Sometimes
successfully, and sometimes not.

"I remember one pony that ran away with
one of the Roth children. I'm sure Maggie got a
horse, Brannie got a horse once. I think she got
two horses, a pony when she was little, and then
when she got bigger, she got another."

Filoli was once the gathering place for
San Francisco and Peninsula gentry, who met
for parties, debutante balls, and the traditional
Christinas Eve celebration in the enormous
ballroom.

.The main ballroom has crystal chande
liers that once hung in the Palace of Versailles. •
The ballroom is also gilded with two hundred
pounds of gold from Bourn's Grass Valley gold
mines. On the walls are murals of the Irish
countryside and Killarney Lakes. The huge
fireplace with the fifteen-foot hearth is where
the Bourns toasted the end of Prohibition in
1933.

"Christmas Eve was very gay. Dinner was ]
always in the ballroom, where we generally had !
eight to ten tables set up. It was all just family, j

"We always had a big buffet. We had j
turkey, sometimes duck, a pig once in a while,!
plum puddings and chocolate roll for desert. .'

"Everybody sort of helped out with dinner !
in the kitchen. You had to; you could never get j
enough people to serve dinner to fifty people on ;
Christmas Eve. i

"My gardeners came in and helped, and ,
maybe my daughters' gardener. Everybody '
helped.

"Everyone was dressed. It was really '•
formal.

"Then, after dinner in the ballroom, we
all sat in that big living room — about fifty
people with no place to sit, but arms of chairs,
children on. the floor. Then singer George
Alexander got all the children singing, which
was great. He did funny things. He acted as a
Santa Claus, and clowned up. The children
loved it. Mr. Roth never dressed up as Santa
Claus. That wasn't his cup of tea. He was never
Santa Claus.

"It ended with George singing the Lord's
Prayer. That was always the last thing. He had !
a guitar . . . and then he would sing the Lord's
Prayer.

"Christmas morning was awful," she
laughs, "because the children always wanted to
open up the presents early, so everybody would
have to get up early for opening presents.

"It was a mess, because I had three
children (the twins Lurline and Berniece and
William Maison Roth), and they each had
three children. And everybody got presents, so
it was simply dreadful. Everything was mixed
up, and in- the end, half the time the children
didn't know who gave them what.

"I don't know why we kept that up for so
long, but we did because it seemed so tradition
al. As the children got older it was ridiculous,
but we still did it. -

"We had dogs — labradors and poodles
— on the first Christmas we had poodles, and
we always had two labradors. Their tails
always knocked everything over. Labradors are
so clumsy in a room.

"I always used to hide presents in that big,
house, and then I couldn't find them. It always
happened. I would hide them in closets, in desk
drawers, and then forget what closet, and what
desk. ' .:' ,^-:;-/;. ;;; ,:-, ,.

"I, would go to church services at St.
Matthew's in San Mateo on Christmas morn
ing. On Christmas Eve the whole family always
went as well. :. .'..._',";

."Often my husband's family from Hawaii
would come from Honolulu for Christmas.
They'd bring leis, fragrant to mix in with the
evergreen."'' '''.-^C'^^f ' -' -,^-,';V:-'^::-

* : '. "Chrioimases at Filoli were happy times.
It was a friendly house.'* D

APPENDIX M — Filoli Center brochure 205

206

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Organization

It was Mrs. Roth's wish that a local Board be establish
vise the management, maintenance, and enhancement
erty. This wish was fulfilled in agreement with the Na
and led to the formal establishment, on February 13, 1
Center as a non-profit corporation and the appointmel
of Trustees and an Executive Director.

Acquisition of Additional Property

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sumptuous magnitude and pristine original beauty wb
unblighted by the intrusion of subdivisions."

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In addition to preserving and displaying this historic
its handsome main residence and superb gardens, the

establishing important educational programs in hortic
professional and for the home gardener, including a v
scholarship program. Conferences, seminars, exhibits
educational and cultural programs will be added as fu
personnel permit. Some of these activities will serve t
of demonstrating the importance of relating architect!
natural environment and to gardens and landscaping.

APPENDIX N

209

Filoli — View to the hills, over the sunken garden and through an avenue of Irish yew.
Photograph by Ron Herman.

The Flowering Shrubs of Filoli

MAI K. ARBEGAST, Berkeley, California

The beautiful gardens at Filoli have benefited from Mai Arbegast's
interim supervision: she remain* a member of the Filoli Board of Trustees.
Mai is a landscape architect and horticultural consultant.

Filoli, the most recent addition to the
properties of the National Trust for
Historic Preservation, was until December
1975 the San Mateo County residence of Mrs.
Lurline Matson Roth. It was one of the largest
private gardens on the west coast. The garden
is a personal expression of Mrs. Roth's
interest in and love for flowering plants.

The garden was originally designed and
built for Mr. William B. Bourn. by Bruce
Porter, garden designer, in 1915. The land
scape design was the direct expression of the
owner and the designer working together to

create a very special garden within the incom
parable setting of the Crystal Springs Water
shed area south of San Francisco. The
designer's job was to understand the site
and the client's needs and desires, and to
interpret them in a design. The owner was a
successful businessman, convervative in his
design and social tastes, who desired to find
a site which reminded him of the Irish
countryside. He needed a garden where he
could provide activities for his guests such as
croquet and lawn bowling, as well as to
entertain, with a garden for strolling and

Shrubs of FUoli / 15

210

viewing plants and the larger scene. Views to
the expansive natural landscape beyond the
built gardens were always carefully framed
and encouraged. The rise of the wooded hills
to the west and the long view down the
valley to the Crystal Springs Lakes to the
north were most important.

Bruce Porter was basically a painter who,
.because of his interest in plants, worked
with Willis Polk the architect for the house,
on projects involving landscape design.
Porter was much taken with the natural land
scape of California and had a keen interest in
trying to find the best way to fit the
architectural garden into the natural land
scape. He worked closely with Miss Isabella
Worn, better known as Bella Worn, a superb
plantswoman, floral designer and interior
decorator. She was responsible for most of the
plant selections in the development of Filoli.
Her work which bridged the gap between
the original planting design and the
occupancy of Mrs. Roth, continuing with
Mrs. Roth for twelve years until Miss Wom's
death, gave a continuity to the garden design
which was most important and has been little
mentioned.

Bella Worn and Louis Moriconi, head gardener,
among hedges of lavender.

Other people important to the stewardship
and maintenance of the gardens were Louis
G. Moriconi who began working in the
gardens for Mr. Bourn in 1918 and continued
for fifty- two years until 1968. He passed on
his legacy of knowledge and work to Leslie
Thiringer, a Hungarian cavalryman, who had
received his master's degree in animal hus
bandry, but emigrated to the United States,
because of conditions in his country, to
become head gardener at Filoli for some
twenty years from 1952 to 1972.

The garden design as executed was archi
tectural in emphasis with a mixture of many
styles ranging from the Roman Renaissance
Revival period through the English Land
scape Tradition. It is a series of gardens, each
architectural and more or less symmetrical,
placed on the basic spine of a major north-
south path from a southernmost viewpoint at
the highest level down to a view of the
reservoir at the north end.

Many of the original plants were selected
because they were able to withstand the
onslaught of great numbers of deer. The
climate and weather were also important in
determining which plants could be used. The
prevailing winds which traverse the garden
both in the morning and afternoon are very
strong. The heat from the afternoon sun is
intense. Minimum temperatures in winter
dip down to 25°F. regularly and to 17°F.
occasionally; while summer temperatures
regularly reach 80 and 90°F. The moderating
influence of the coastal fog which hangs just
at the ridgetops to the west gives Filoli very
special air-conditioning. Because of these
climatic influences and also because the
major concept of the design was to provide
outdoor rooms for separate activities, certain
plants were used throughout the garden to
pull the design together visually. These basic
plants were used at the main entrance,
around the house to the west and southward
to the viewing platform, the southernmost
point in the garden.

Very few California native plants were
used, except as they already existed as
magnificent large specimen coast live oaks
(Quercus agrifolia) because such plants were

211

Filoli — Ulmus glabra 'Camperdownii'

not available in nurseries. The major trees
and shrubs which fulfilled the climatic and
deer-proof requirements were primarily
European in origin and many were brought
back as seeds to this country by Mr. Bourn
himself as he travelled back and forth to
Europe. They are:

English Holly (Ilex aquifolium)
Dutch Holly (Ilex aquifolium 'Van Tol')
Irish Yews (Taxus baccata 'Stricta')
Dwarf English Boxwood (Buxus semper-

virens 'Suffruticosa')
European Olive (Olea europaea)
Blue Atlas Cedar (Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca')
Copper Beech (Fagus sylvatica 'Atropuni-

cea')

London Plane Tree (Platanus x acerifolia)
Pfitzer's Juniper (Juniperus chinensis

'Pfitzeriana')

Tamarix or Spanish Juniper (Juniperus
sabina Tamariscifolia')

One of the most important parts of the
garden is the Walled Garden. This is an area

Filoli — Flowering cherries. Color photographs by the author.

Shrubs of Filoli / 17

212

li

of large dimension, measuring 277 feet x
167 feet enclosed by a brick wall varying in
height from 8 feet 6 inches to 11 feet 6 inches,
with wrought iron gates closing it off from
other parts of the garden. There are at least six
smaller gardens within the walls. Each is
seen separately, and one comes upon them
within the garden somewhat by surprise.
It is an intriguing place. This garden was
designed to turn completely into itself. It
is one of the most colorful sections of the
estate, planted with bedding annuals, bulbs,
and many flowering shrubs and trees.

A major impression which persists long
after one has visited Filoli is the color which
comes from the flowering plants in dramatic
settings. This magic can be attributed to the
intuitive sense of color and flair for display
exercised in the gardens by Bella Worn. Her
selections of flowering shrubs, many of
which came from Toichi Domoto's Nursery
in Hayward thirty or more years ago is
evident in the lavish displays of Camellia
reticulata cultivars which overhang many
other colorful plants during the months of
February and March. In March and April the
burst of bloom of three azalea cultivars — the
brilliant red of Azalea "Ward's Ruby', the
cerise red of Azalea 'Hinodegiri', and the
crimson of Azalea 'Hino-Crimson' — form
belts or drifts of red through the garden.
Many of the plants were selected and ulti
mately woven through the design with great
artistry.

In spite of the major deterrents of deer and
climate many beautiful effects were obtained
which still hold up today. It is interesting
to note that many of the plants which were
used in the original scheme are not available
in nurseries today because they have fallen
out of fashion. For example, Kashmir bou
quet or Clerodendrum bungei, a deciduous
shrub with beautiful rosy-pink flowers
carried in large terminal rounded heads of
four to six inches in width, is rarely seen.
This fragrant flower, member of the Verbena
family, blooms in sun or shade in late
summer and early fall when very few other
shrubs are in flower. Interesting large heart-
shaped leaves which are dark green above

18 / Pacific Horticulture

with reddish-purple hairs beneath and dark
stems give off a fetid odor when bruised.
(Therefore, its older name — Clerodendrum
foetidum). This plant spreads by suckers and
tends to run, thereby forming a complete
mass of upright stems with terminal flowers
held above the foliage at about two to three
feet high. Planted in a hot protected south
facing spot it gives color to an otherwise all
green spot during the late summer. Cutting it
back to the ground and treating it as a
perennial allows it to renew its foliage and
stems each year.

Another shrub which has been neglected
and is beginning to be recognized and
desired by gardeners again is the box-leaved
myrtle, Luma apiculata, formerly called
Myrtus luma, Eugenia apiculata, and
Myrceugenella apiculata. It has a beautiful
trunk of ochre or pale cinnamon color with
exfoliating bark which reveals creamy under-
skin. These lovely effects are seen only when
the plant has reached an age where the stems
are at least an inch in diameter at the base.
Plants at Filoli are about 15 feet tall with many
upright stems from the base. Leaves are ovate
to W'long, dark green with an abrupt, almost
spiny, tip and look very much like boxwood.
New leaves emerge a deep bronze and
expand to a deep green. The small white
flowers have slightly incurved rounded petals
and are held in small clusters over the
entire plant in late summer and early autumn.
Small black fruits are inconspicuous on the
plant because they are lost against the
bunchiness of the dark green foliage mass.
This plant is seeding itself in the garden. In
Golden Gate Park near the McLaren Rhodo
dendron Dell Luma has been used as a
clipped hedge. Many people do not recognize
it to be the same plant because its natural
form has been subordinated to a clipped
hedge which most people assume to be box
wood.

Michelia figo (Michelia fuscata), the banana
shrub, is an elegant plant of the Magnolia
family which prospers in the climate at Filoli.
For south and west exposures of hot after
noon sun and reflected heat off of buildings,
Michelia is used as the complement to

213

camellias which prefer morning sun and
afternoon shade. The leaf is slightly narrower
than that of camellias, but quite similar in
size and glossiness, color and the general
habit of growth. The banana shrub has been
used both as a clipped standard and as a loose
shrub. Forty-year old plants at Filoli are
approximately eighteen feet high. The
axillary flowers of michelia are small (about
an inch long) miniature magnolia-like, and
pale yellow with a reddish edge in bud,
opening up to reveal a rosy-maroon petal on
the inside. The flowers are exceedingly
fragrant, and on a warm summer day they
smell very much like ripe bananas.

In thinking about plants which might work
with already existing large plants, a substi
tute was required to match a michelia eight
feet high, Prunus carolimana, the Carolina
laurel cherry, obtainable in larger size was
used. The leaf size and shape are similar
enough so that the differences are not notice
able except to those with a very discerning
eye.

Viburnum x burkwoodii is an excellent half-
evergreen shrub with fragrant flowers from
late February through May and then sporadi
cally throughout the rest of the year. The
small flowers are white, pink in the bud, and
are held in rounded clusters three to four
inches wide. Deep green, glossy leaves with
a distinctive greyish-brown felt effect
beneath and on its stems distinguish it. One
of the nice aspects of this viburnum is that it
always has a few leaves maturing in the
summer and early fall so that a touch of
yellow and red is visible within the foliage
mass. In the autumn depending on the
amount of cold, the leaves turn a brilliant red.
It is cold enough at Filoli so that such
autumn coloration is expected. This is not the
case in the more moderate climate of Berkeley
and San Francisco where half of the leaves
remain on the plant during winter. This plant
has been used in a structural manner, clipped
as a tight column, and with a rounded out
line, although its basic form tends to be side
ward with a somewhat horizontal emphasis.
It is best planted in the sun or half-shade.
Pruning should be done at the time of

flowering or immediately after to insure
flowers for the succeeding year.

Viburnum plicatum 'Mariesii', a relatively
rare deciduous shrub is planted primarily to
take advantage of its definite horizontal
branching of side stems off an upright series
of main stems. In pruning for best effect this
natural tendency of the plant should be
encouraged. The flowers appear as large
white doilies about four to five inches wide in
horizontal tiers. The fertile flowers are small,
in an umbel surrounded by a ring of con
spicuous white sterile flowers on the outside
edge to give the doily effect. Unfortunately, at
Filoli this plant has been clipped into a tight
architectural form where the very distinctive
quality which is special for this plant is not
seen. With such tight pruning furthermore,
very few flowers develop. Autumn leaf color
is a gold-yellow.

For a very special white splash of bloom on
a large shrub, it is difficult to find any
competition for the pearlbush, Exochorda x
macrantha 'The Bride', a cultivar received
from Wayside Gardens many years ago. This
large deciduous shrub, with grey-green
leaves, is extremely floriferous so that it
appears as an arching mass of white flowers
— each about three-quarter inches wide,
single, with a papery quality — held in long
tight racemes over the entire plant. Although
it flowers with its foliage almost fully
expanded, it is difficult to see the leaves when
the plant is in bloom. The pearlbush has been
pruned so that it appears as a small tree with a
wide head at least ten feet high, although
its natural habit would be to have a number
of major stems from the base. During most of
the year this plant fades into the background.

Coronilla emerus, the scorpion senna, can be
considered somewhat rare because of its lack
of use in most California gardens. This shrub
of delicate quality with relatively thin, small,
apple-green compound leaves is placed along
a red brick wall which faces the hot western
sun in the afternoon . In this spot it grows very
well. The plant appears to be espaliered, and
is helped a little with a few wires which hold
it loosely against the wall. It has a limber
quality and is a lovely billowing mass. In

Shrubs of Filoli / 19

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• , _• ..,.,^ ,_.j i. ji:.-^i--K<-.:. -.'-.••

214

Filoli — Sunken garden, stable and clock tower.

March and April small yellow and red pea-
like flowers come from each leaf axil so that it
appears as a puff of yellow against a soft
green.

Rosa banksiae 'Lutea' the yellow Banksian
rose, graces a number of the tall brick walls
and bursts into magnificent and floriferous
bloom from April through May. The small
double yellow rose flowers completely clothe
the stems. They are delicately- fragrant. The
plant is semi-evergreen with bright green
leaves composed of three to five leaflets on
smooth green shoots which are almost thorn-
less. The trunks have developed on old plants
to two inches in diameter and more. At Filoli
these plants are placed on every exposure
except a northern wall. This rose will climb
to whatever height it has support. I have seen

single plants completely engulf the entire
rooftop of a small house. For so many years
this rose was out of fashion, but it is now
available in local nurseries.

Loropetalum chinensis, the Chinese witch
hazel, is used as a tubbed plant at Filoli
although it is an elegant evergreen shrub
which will grow to ten feet in height and
spread. The small white flowers have thin
strap-shaped petals which are slightly curled
inward and outward as witch hazel flowers.
The leaves are small (IVi inches - 2 inches
long) ovate, a medium grass-green (occasion
ally yellow-green because of lack of iron) with
new foliage which appears a soft orange
color. The older foliage turns to deep orange
and red before dropping off the plant.
Although this is an evergreen plant there is
always a touch of red, because of maturing
leaves, which gives the plant a special charm.
The back of the leaf is sandpapery to the
touch. This plant tends to grow downwards
or as an arching specimen when it is young,
and after it establishes itself will stretch
upward and outward. It is freely branching
with many small thin branchlets and forms a
dense mounding plant. Because of the deli
cacy of its branching, it lends itself to
pruning to develop any form which is
desired. It grows in both sun and shade and is
extremely versatile. Once established it is
very vigorous and must be pruned to keep it
within bounds. It is difficult to find this
excellent plant in nurseries, but it is propa
gated readily by cuttings from half-ripened
wood.

Daphne odora 'Marginata', the yellow-
edged daphne or pink daphne, has been
used throughout Filoli in warm shade situa
tions. Some of the plants are over forty years
old, although many have been replaced
because of old age. The early flowers (Febru
ary through April) with their delicate lemon-
scent set up one of the themes which
pervades the entire garden. (Lovely
fragrances of certain plants through various
sections of the garden, such as the daphne,
star jasmine, wisteria, is unforgettable!) The
tight small clusters of pale pink flowers with
the yellow-margined pippin-apple green

20 / Pacific Horticulture

215

Filoli — Gate to the wild garden

FUoli — Rhododendron 'Ward's Ruby' contained by balustrade, hedge and path.

Shrubs of Filoli / 21

216

foliage are planted along north and east
facing walls, and in amongst the trees where
warmth and shade provide the ideal condi
tions for this plant at Filoli. In cooler
summer situations such as Berkeley and San
Francisco the daphne must be planted in
much more exposed and warm situations for
good flowering. Daphne is a plant which
should be given minimum care and distur
bance around its roots, and will do well.

Miss Worn used the dwarf pomegranate,
Punica granatum 'Nana' as a special accent
plant for its bright orange flowers and small
red fruits. Some of the plants are over fifty
years old and have reached full maturity.
Where they have been allowed to reach their
maximum height they are approximately
eight feet tall and are clipped as standards
on a single trunk with wide heads at least
eight feet wide. In other areas they are
dipped as rounded forms to three feet or
slightly more. This deciduous shrub with
small bright glossy deep green foliage has
new leaves which emerge a coppery-red in
color, and has been used for these effects in a
very special way at Filoli.

During a second stage in the development
of the garden in the 1940s, Mrs. Roth collec
ted as many of the cultivars of Camellia
reticulata as were available and placed them
in sections of the Walled and Wild Garden at
Filoli to give a mass effect of color. The
cultivars of this camellia were repeated
throughout various sections of these two
gardens and the Sunken Garden as well. They
are: 'Buddha', 'Shot Silk', 'Captain Rawes',
'Professor Tsai', 'Lion Head', 'Queen of Tali',
'Pagoda', 'Purple Gown', 'Noble Pearl', 'Con
fucius', 'Crimson Robe', 'Chrysanthemum
Petals'. 'Cornelian', 'Chang's Temple' and
'Willow Wood'. All have grown to good size
and are placed so that one walks under them.
Beneath them are azaleas, lily-of-the-valley
and ferns. This section of the walled garden
is best seen during the months of February
and March.

There are many wonderful old-fashioned
azaleas located in the garden which must be
written about at some other time. However,
Mrs. Roth mentioned that the use of Azalea

22 / Pacific Horticulture

'Hinodegiri' was a matter of trial and error.
In the beginning many plants were tried
which the deer ate or which died due to
wrong exposure. It was discovered early that
the deer do not seem to eat this particular
cultivar. Also, it was discovered that very few
azaleas were able to survive in certain
locations because of the severe afternoon sun
from the west. Azalea 'Ward's Ruby' was
found to be able to take the difficult situation
of exposure. There are beautiful drifts of red
of both 'Hinodegiri' and 'Ward's Ruby' in
combination through the garden, and they
are somewhat electric in total effect. Finding
the adaptable plant became the answer for
creating unusual effects as well!

The present charm and color of the garden
are due to the continuing care which Mrs.
Roth has given for the past forty years.
Approximately half of the flowering shrubs
in the garden were added by Mrs. Roth, some
under the guidance of Bella Worn and some
selected with the aid of Toichi Domoto.

The garden is a chronicle of the people-
involved and their interests and aspirations.
Many old plants have been replaced because
they have reached mature size and have
declined in vigor or have become too large for
the spaces they originally filled. This process
of replacement is essential to continuing
health and interest in the gardens at Filoli.
Many new varieties were added and will con
tinue to be added to replace older plants.
The cycle of growth — youth, maturity and
old age — show up in a garden and must be
expected as part of the natural ordering of life.

Filoli is one of the few old large estate
gardens in California still intact which has
retained its original design and has been
maintained. There are very few private
gardens left of this period which contain
mature old plantings so well maintained.
Now that it is a property of the National Trust
for Historic Preservation, and will be run by a
public foundation for purposes horticultural
and other, it will be interesting to see what
happens to the plants in another thirty years.
Their continued use for experimentation,
education and enjoyment by greater numbers
of people is Mrs. Roth's hope. ^

APPENDIX 0

217

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223

AN INTERVIEW WITH TOICHI DOMOTO

Conducted by

Suzanne Riess

in 1981

Copyright (c) 1982 by the Regents of the University of California

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal
agreement between the Regents of the University of
California and Toichi Domoto dated June 5, 1981. The
manuscript is thereby made available for research
purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript,
including the right to publish, are reserved to The
Bancroft Library of the University of California Berkeley.
No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication
without the written permission of the Director of The
Bancroft Library of the University of California at
Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office,
486 Library, and should include identification of the
specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the
passages, and identification of the user. The legal
agreement with Toichi Domoto requires that he be notified
of the request and allowed thirty days in which to respond.

It is recommended that this oral history be cited
as follows :

Toichi Domoto, "An Interview with Toichi Domoto,"
an oral history conducted 1981 by Suzanne Riess,
Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library,
University of California, Berkeley, 1982.

225

TABLE OF CONTENTS — Toichi Domoto

I DOMOTO BROTHERS NURSERY
Customers

Japanese Gardeners
Bulb Salesmen
The Persimmon
Quarantine Number 37
Cottage Garden Nursery, Eureka

II TOICHI DOMOTO1 S EDUCATION
Jobs for Japanese

Stanford, and University of Illinois
Cosmopolitan Club
Tom Domoto, Propagating and Hybridizing Chrysanthemums

III FILOLI, POST WORLD WAR II
Bulbs
Toichi, Troubleshooter

IV MISS ISABELLA WORN

V APPRECIATING THE CHARACTER OF GARDENS

VI TEACHING THE SKILLS; FLORICULTURE SCHOOLS

VII ITALIAN GARDENERS

VIII PRUNING AT FILOLI

226

1/227

I DOMOTO BROTHERS NURSERY
[Interview 1: May 26, 1981 ]##

Riess :

Domoto:

Riess :
Domoto:

Riess:
Domoto:

Riess:
Domoto:

Yours is the name that always comes up in relation to Filoli,
no other supplier.

The other ones that were supplying services there — did Mrs. Roth
mention, while I think about it, a tree service man from Davey?

No, they used Davey?

I think he was connected with Davey or they may not have used
Davey, but he was a Davey-trained man, let's put it that way,
and I think he lives in Palo Alto. We can supplement if I
find out because this man was probably advising them along in the
fifties, I guess. I don't think before that. There was someone
else before [Leslie] Thiringer.

[Louis] Moraconi?

No, Moraconi is [not it],
another —

He was the last of the — there was

Do you mean as head gardener?

Head gardener, yes. Moraconi was in charge of the Italian group
there, more or less in the bedding plant group, but as far as I
remember, I don't think he was in charge of the full yard area.

Customers

////This symbol indicates that a tape or a segment of a tape has
begun or ended.

2/228

Domoto :

Riess:
Domoto:

Riess :

Domoto:

Riess :
Domoto:

Riess:

Domoto:
Riess :

We supplied — my father's nursery, Domoto Brothers , Inc., and
Toichi Domoto Nursery — plants to Filoli long before I got to meet
Mrs. Roth, because it went through Miss Worn. A lot of it Miss
Worn would pick up in her own truck and take it on down.

So you were sort of wholesaling to Miss Worn?

Miss Worn, yes, and not knowing where they were going, just like
a lot of the plants she was buying went to the Hearst estate
at San Simeon, and after she bought them, "Well, this is going
to the Hearst estate." Her idea when she was dealing with my
dad — see, Dad was the old school: if he knew that someone wealthy
was going to buy it, maybe the price would go up! [laughs]

Really, that is the old school?
too, I'm sure!

That sounds like the new school,

I've forgotten who the Piedmont customer was that came down one
day in an old car. Dad said, "What is the matter? Did your
other car break down?" He said, "No, I thought if I came in
this car, you would give me a better price!" [laughter] Those
were the days of the Pierce Arrows and the Locomobiles — that
was a prestige car in those days. If they came in a Pierce
Arrow, you know that they had the wealth to go with it.

But plant materials seemed very, very cheap then. Is it relative
or were they very cheap?

No, good materials were still high. Yet as far as it was cheap
in the point of view of the dollar, but then you figure out a
person working all day is only getting a dollar.

Yes, but in this article, when the maples were 35 cents and a
hundred for $35.

Yes, but you are only getting a dollar a day.
But your trade was not the dollar a day trade.

Japanese Gardeners

* "Toichi Domoto, Nurseryman," by William E. Schmidt, California
Horticultural Journal. Vol. XXX, No. 3, July 1969.

3 /229

Domoto:

No, but your help — that means your economy is at that point,
so that your trade and everything, they are thinking in those
terras. We have the trouble right now even, the older generation,
they will say, "Hey, Domoto, find me a good Japanese gardener or
a gardener who knows something about it."

I say, "Yes,
you anything."

I can find you one probably, but I won't promise

"Oh, I get gardeners but they don't know anything."

I say, "The ones that know are going to cost you some money."

He says, "How much?" Well, they are used to thinking in
terms of the prewar or postwar when their gardeners, they got
two and a half or three dollars an hour they thought they were
paying them a good price. Now if a gardener charges him six to
ten dollars for just pushing the lawn mower they think they are
getting robbed. Yet they will go to the garage or a plumber —

Riess : Oh sure, but we know we're getting robbed by the plumber! [laughs]
But actually there are gardeners and gardeners. I mean if it is
just going to be mowing the lawn, then would you expect that gardener
to know plant materials?

Domoto: They should, but unfortunately they don't. Too many of the young
ones that have gone in either are of a group that had no other
openings and went in for gardening either because economy-wise
or else — I hate to put it this way — mentally they are not
sufficient enough to do anything else but pushing the lawn
mower.

Riess: You are saying this is almost traditionally the case?

Domoto: No, the original Japanese gardener that came here, they had
nothing that they could go into that was better. So I would
say that their I.Q., if such a thing can be measured, was higher
and not only that, I think their interest was a lot more intense
because their livelihood depended on being able to keep that
job. You don't have a welfare state to depend on. If they didn't
get that job, they would have to go back [to Japan]. They can't
say, "I'm hungry. I need an extra few dollars for my family."
There was nothing like that.

Riess: What was your father like? A real entrepreneur it sounds like.

4/230

Domoto: Yes, and then I think of what they did. We talk about the older —
the second — generation, those that did make a name for themselves,
when we think back to what they did, why, I don't think any of us
would have had the guts to do what they did or the way they
did it. They were really gamblers.

Riess : Was the community very supportive when your father took the risk
of starting the nursery?

Domoto: No, no, they were really anti. They had to buck everything. It
was the only way.

Riess: Was there a Japanese community already?

Domoto: No, when my father came there was no Japanese community, just a.
small [group], very small in 1883.

Riess: So he took a risk at the beginning.

Domoto: Yes. Most of the plants that came were unknown here. The fact
that plants were coming in from Japan, [there was] interest in
plants from Japan, and then the plants from Europe, probably the
salesmen from those countries were good and that is the way they
came in, started in.

Bulb Salesmen

Riess: I wondered how he got his connections with the bulb dealers in
Holland.

Domoto: The Hollanders used to send their salesmen over every year and it
used to be quite a thing. Each bulb company would try to send
their bulb salesman in. They were supposed to leave at about the
same time. Of course, there were no planes. There were boats
and, of course, there could only be a certain number of boats
coming in. Then the Transcontinental and the Pacific Coast,
there was a race to see who was going to hit the market first.
They know which of the growers buy the most bulbs, so they
will try to hit him first and see if they can get the bulk of the
bulb order. That was the race for the Dutch bulbs.

The plant business before quarantine was mostly not so much
Hollanders but the Belgians.

Riess: That was the azaleas?

5 7231

Domoto: The azaleas, English bays, Araucarias, they were all grown trees.
They would come in by boat to New York and then come overland by
freight all crated up and then they would uncrate them and they
would use them like in the front of the Palace Hotel, the
Fairmont Hotel in those days, some hotels even bigger — most of
the hotels, very few apartments, and even the private residences
would all have these — you see in some of the old pictures
these Bay trees, Laurus nobilis, those were the standards or
pyramids. They came all ready in these cedar tubs, already grown.

Riess : At that point, your father had his catalogue?

Domoto: Yes, he had put out a catalogue earlier. They were sort of an

import catalogue and evidently what they did was, the orders were
taken against the import stock and as the stock came in, the
orders were filled. In the fall of the season when they came
in, the orders would be filled as they arrived. So actually,
my father's letterhead used to read "importers and exporters."

The Persimmon

Domoto: A lot of the things he did [was] import work, mail order. For

instance, the things that came in any quantity were like persimmons,
chestnuts, some of the fruit trees, like the pears, but mainly
the biggest amount of that type of fruit was some of the
varieties of persimmons and some of the prunes. Then even they
bought some of the oranges, the Satsuma oranges. In the other
ornamental line, we would get quantities of camellias.

Riess: Let me stop you for a second on the fruit and ask whether this
was the introduction here of Japanese persimmons?

Domoto: Oh yes.

Riess: Through your father's business?

Domoto: Yes. They were sold to other nurseries like, oh, Fancher Creek,
in Fresno. There is a nursery up in Newcastle, Fowler, I think.
Those are some of the nurseries. Then down south into the Los
Angeles area. Actually, I guess the commercial — others may have
imported some, I don't know. But I know that my father was
importing a lot of those original persimmons into the states for
distribution.

Riess: For home gardens?

6 7232

Domoto: No, for commercial planters. So some of the original plantings
in California were from trees that my father imported.

Riess: Did they know the range of conditions that the persimmon would
grow under?

I

Domoto: No, a lot of it was experimental. But by that time some of the
orchardists had Japanese foremen or men working for them on the
crew. So because of that they would know about planting, but a
lot of it was experimental. Then also the USDA was interested in
the persimmons, like they were in bamboo shoots — bamboo we imported.

Up at Chico, they had I have forgotten how many varieties of
persimmon at the USDA Experiment Station. They had pretty near
every variety of persimmon they could find from Japan as a test
to try out for the area and at one time, the ones that came from
Japan originally were all grafted on persimmons understock. Then
they found out somewhere along the line that the persimmon
understock takes too long to come into fruit and it was hard to
transplant. So then they went into a cousin, one they called the
lotus, a related tree for understock here in California. Now they
are going back to the persimmon again because they say that the
lotus is not really compatible, the tree is short-lived and the
fruit isn't quite as good. So they are going back to the older
persimmon understock again.

But Chico, and this is back in it must have been in the
fifties. It was before that, I guess. I know that some of those
trees may still be there. They had one large persimmon that the
man in charge (I've forgotten his name now) said that they just
had finished picking over a half a ton of fruit from that one
tree.

Riess: That's amazing. I have a persimmon and the trunk is so weak that
I have to keep cutting that tree back.

Domoto: No, this trunk goes about that wide. I don't know what the

spread was, but they got the big fruit from there, and every year
since they've been up there — the heads of the department used to
be shifted around from different stations — they said they were
sending a box to the President, and boxes to the secretaries
of agriculture and commerce. I said, "Do you mean all of those?"
"Oh no, not all of them, but certain ones." Then, of course, no
air. It had to be shipped by railway express and it would be at
least five days on the road — at least that; more likely a week.
They were really — I never saw them that big. Of course, they would
pick out the biggest ones.

7/233

Riess: Oh, and they are so beautiful. Then they would have to send along
somebody to educate all of these people about when you eat a
persimmon, when it's ripe.

Domoto: Probably over there, when they got them they would probably look
at them and then, of course, they have a Japanese embassy, or
the consulate people that they could find out what to do with them,
or else probably they just came with somebody to look at it, admire
or have some fun puckering them.

Speaking of educating, I was in Illinois in school and my
folks sent me some persimmons, both Fuyus and Hachiyas. My
roommate, when the box came in, I didn't recognize the Fuyus
right away and I started to bite into it (and I had a few Hachiyas
in the box). He said, "What are those?"

I said, "Persimmons."

He kept watching my face and he said, "Toichi, you are a
damn good actor but you can't fool me!"

I said, "Okay," and I kept eating one. When I got through,
he said, "No, there is something else to it. Can I try one?"

I said, "Sure." He bit into it, and pretty soon he sort of
laughed. Then one of the other fraternity brothers came in and
he said, "What are you eating?"

"Persimmons . "

"Ooh ! "

"Yes," I said, "do you want to try one?"

"Nah! It's too good for those guys!" [laughter]

But that was the general impression of persimmons and even
now it is that way. Persimmons are puckery and if you grow up
eating persimmons back there it is the small, native persimmons,
the wild persimmons. They say that they have to be real ripe
before they are good. Of course, the southern group, they know
what they're talking about. They eat persimmons with possum meat
cooked together. So it's just a matter of getting educated.

Riess : The experimental work was done by the USDA. How about the
University of California Agricultural Extension?

8/234

Domoto: No, that is a much later development. That importation work was

mostly done by USDA first. Then they had one down in Santa Barbara,
too, but they closed that out back in about '35 or '40 when they
had to enlarge one of the campuses. They had to knock out a lot
of the trees they had there. But they were experimenting with
some in Florida, too. The two experiment stations were in Florida
and Chico, and some of the early pamphlets or early books on
persimmons that the USDA has put out, is from either Chico or
Florida. Just like the bamboo. See, they had an idea of growing
bamboo for food and also for structural purposes especially in
the Louisiana area. But with labor costs and whatever it was too
costly.

Quarantine Number 37

Riess: When was the quarantine?

Domoto: That was in '17. But actually there was an embargo before

that because the war was on and there was no space available for
bringing the plants in. So the actual quarantine, number 37,
did not go into effect until '17. But the limitation of imports
was already on because of the war. The only way you could get
their coming into the States either from the Orient or from
Europe was by getting a special permit from the War Trade Board
to use the boats coming this way if they had room, and that was
very limited.

Then because 37 was going to go in, the nurserymen here
were just coming out of World War I and still trying to cope
with their home propagation. They were trying to keep [out]
the competition that would be coming in from Europe or Asia or
wherever that used to come in, that is to work up a home
industry in the meantime.

Riess: Are you talking about the non- Japanese nurserymen?

Domoto: Yes, all over the United States; that is, azaleas and conifers
and so forth back in the New Jersey area and the New York area
and some in California. Not so much in the Midwest — one or two
in the Midwest. But it was an industry and they were trying
to keep the competition from coming in. Of course, there was a
fear of insects and diseases coming in.

Riess: Which do you think was more important though? Which was the
real issue?

9/235

Domoto: When I come to think back over what happened and the way things
are, politics as it is, I would say [pause] — they used the fact
that there was a danger of disease coining in as a means of putting
quarantine 37 in.

Riess : Yes, I would imagine you would think that. Was there enough
warning though so that you could get a really adequate back
stock?

Domoto: No, because if you did, then they would say, "Look, disease could
come in with that box of stock." So they wanted control over
the stock that was coming in already, that would be coming in
under the quarantine, so they would have control over that. They
had to be brought in and inspected, or come from a country where
they had rigid inspection, and then come in for resale. Certain
things could be resold right away, others would have to be kept
under one or two or three-year post-entry quarantine measures
to see if nothing develops on those plants that came in.

Cottage Garden Nursery, Eureka

Domoto: Now, that's where Cottage Garden Nursery in Eureka started. My
father, being on the importing side, import licenses — special
licenses — were hard to get. Mr. [Charles W. ] Ward told my father,
"You go to Japan and get all of these. You want so many thousand
of this, so many thousand of that, and this and that, all of the
things that we are importing in whatever size you could get, the
bigger the better; whatever you could get."

[My father] said, "We can't get that permit." He said,
"Never mind the permit. I'll get the permit and you go to Japan
and get the plants over there."

Riess: Because he had the political power to get the permit?

Domoto: Yes.

Riess : His name was Ward?

Domoto: Yes, Charles W. Ward.

Riess: Was that the case often, that your father went over to pick out
the materials.

10/236

Domoto: He was in Japan at the time, not only to buy plant material but

at wartime there was some war material — junk steel and stuff like
that — that could be sold at a profit.

Riess : You father is some smart man! He was in on all of those things?

Domoto: There was — what do you call it, a junkie? — yes, they called him
a junkie, in Oakland and San Francisco [that] my father knew.
They would get together a bunch of scrap iron and things to send
and you could take orders over there. Of course, they had no
trouble sending that over, the scrap material.

But Mr. Ward's idea in the Cottage Gardens, which was near
Eureka, was to start a new Belgian- Ho 11 and concept up there.
They were going to grow all of the conifers, the Araucarias.

Riess: Spell that for me. Why don't I know that name?

Domoto: The Norfolk Island pine, Araucaria. Coastal blue spruce, all

of the types of conifers that we used to import and the hollies,
the English bay, and then bulbs. He was going to grow the Dutch
bulbs — the tulips and daffodils and all that sort of thing. Then
the azaleas, of course, and rhododendrons, of course, were going
to be one of the main things that they were going to raise up
there because they figured the climate up there was closest to the
climate of Holland and Belgium.

He even started a purebred dairy to get the manure for his
nursery operation. The theory was quite good, but probably a
little too much for him to oversee at one time. The dairy
operation started to fold up because he had a dishonest
superintendent or manager or whatever you might call him.
Everytime a calf was born, they would substitute a nondescript
cow or whatever for a thoroughbred and he would sell the
thoroughbred. I think they were Jerseys, I think that was the
breed that they were in. But at the time they should have had a
nice, big herd, why they just had a mangy, old herd.

So [there was] that and then the bulb deal didn't turn out
so good. They found up further north in Washington, in
Bellingham, the government started to make some bulb experiments
up there. They found the weather condition was better up there.
But they didn't go into tulips either. They had trouble. I
don't know what line they had, but daffodils they went into pretty
heavily, the narcissus group and that area.

11 7237

II TOICHI DOMOTO'S EDUCATION

Jobs for Japanese

Riess:

Domoto:

If there hadn't been the quarantine, do you think that you would
have gone into the hybridizing and so on that you did or did the
quarantine create a kind of need?

Actually, I liked plants in a way, in the beginning,
think back to things that might have influenced me.

I kind of

Domoto: I used to like annuals, especially pansies. I know that one of our
workers used to raise some pansies at home, just to sell to the
different florists, and he brought me a couple of plants in this
little four-inch pot and I thought more about that and trying to
get some seed to set. I never got it to because I didn't know
anything about growing these things. But I enjoyed that more than
any of the shrubs that we had. Importing camellias — I didn't
know anything about [them] . I clipped all of the buds off of
them and I never got a licking for it, but I know I got a lecture
for it! [laughter] Of course, they were brought in with the buds
to sell.

The other thing possibly, as far as the Japanese are concerned,
there weren't too many things that you could go into for a living.
By that time I had been talking with several who had already
graduated from college with a college degree and [they] had no place
to go. But those who were from Japan or ones who had been sent over
by the big companies to further their knowledge in the different
branches, of course, as soon as they finished their study here
they would go back. But the local fellows and the ones who didn't
have that connection — like we used to say, "There were more college
graduates selling art goods or pumping gas." Grant Avenue, the
art goods stores, knicknack stores. They used to have college
graduates selling that type of material.

12 /238

Domoto: Then the only other outlet was gardening. The carpenters — you had
no chance of getting a carpenter's job.

Riess: The unions were closed.

Domoto: Yes, so that was the only outlet there was. Even gardening, in

the larger construction jobs, there was no new landscaping. There
was no room there.

i

Riess: Who had that business by then?

Domoto: Most of that was by the old firms like McRorie and McLaren. McLaren
was the father of Golden Gate Park.

Riess: It sounds like the Scotsmen had that business!

Domoto: Yes, the Scotch and Irish.

Riess: Were the Italians taken seriously as gardeners?

Domoto: The Italians were later. You see, a generation as it comes in,

most of the first gardeners around here, the better gardeners that
came in as head gardeners, were English, Scotch, Irish, and German
because they were the ones that had the training in the European
countries that had bigger estates. These larger estates were people
of that ancestry, so naturally they would be inclined to — I was
trying to think of the name of the fellow that was in charge of
Filoli.

Riess: Yes, in an article about early Filoli, written by Albert Wilson,

he talks about Phil Graves. But I don't know that he was the manager.

Domoto: But I think Graves might have been the man that followed after.

Riess: This was 1927. {reading] Albert Wilson, "fresh out of Stanford."*
Did you know him?

Stanford, and University of Illinois

Domoto: He was a classmate of mine at Stanford. I started at Stanford, so
we were together. In fact, in a class in morphology we used to
be together.

Riess: So with the two years at Stanford, had you thought that you would
graduate from Stanford?

*"The Gardens of Filoli," by Albert Wilson, California Horticultural
Journal, Vol. XXXI, No. 3, July 1970.

13 7239

Domoto: Well, I thought so but I was in the group at the beginning of the
cycle where they are supposed to have a general interest group
instead of a specialized study. In other words, unless you were
going into engineering or chemistry or medicine, if you were in
anything else, you had to take what they called social —

Riess: Sort of a liberal education?

Domoto: A liberal education, and we were the first class to be —

Riess: Liberally educated!

Domoto: Yes, and then after the two years I found out that I was going

to have to study some structural botany or something that wasn't
in line with the things that I was going to do. I went back in
the fall and I couldn't find anything and all of a sudden I decided
to go back to Illinois because they did have a floriculture course.
I always felt that college education as such wasn't too practical
anyway from what I have seen of the fellows who had come in working
for my father. It gave them the ability to be something, but as
far as their ability to do things right away it was zero. There
was always a conflict there between the fellows who did and didn't
go.

Riess: So you had to go as far as Illinois though to get what you needed?
Domoto: That was nearest, yes.
Riess: It had a reputation?

Domoto: They were one of the few universities that was offering a flori
culture course. It wasn't a nursery course. It was a floriculture
course. It happened that I was working in the summertime for a
florist from Chicago, Illinois. His name is Frank Oechslin. He
came out for a florist nursery convention in San Francisco, and
visited the nursery.

He talked with me and said, "What are you going to do?" I
told him what I was going to study.

"Are you going to be a professor?!!
I said, "No."

He said, "Ah, you're in the wrong school! You should come to
Illinois." That's all he said. He said, "There is a nice school
there for horticulture."

14 /240

Domo to :

Riess :
Domo to:

Riess:

Do mo to:

At that time, we were raising cut flowers and pot plants and the
importation part had been cut out altogether. We were still
importing bulbs, but that was about the only thing we were able to
import to sell and we were starting to try to raise a few
camellia plants. But most of the import was just limited to new
varieties for propagating stock, not to import to sell right
away.

So I thought, "Gee! So far as income was concerned, cut
flower business was pretty good." I thought, "Maybe that might be
the answer."

Were you an only child?

No, I was the oldest. So after starting the quarter at Stanford
I found out I could go to Illinois. They said if I came right away
I could get [there] in time for the first big midterm test for
that semester. So I packed and went, and I never regretted it.

Because of my connection with the professor there, I was able
to get a job during my relocation period with Schramm's Nursery in
Illinois because they knew of my camellia knowledge. It so happened
that the Schramms were of German descent and they had experienced
the same thing that we were going through in World War I.

How good that that made them sympathetic,
remember what the Germans went through.

People very seldom

Of course, they were young at the time, but they still remembered
that part of it. Of course, their parents, those of the older
generation — but he remembered pretty much when they went into
Chicago at the time some of the things that happened to him. So
I was very fortunate in being able to go there.

Cosmopolitan Club

Riess:

Domo to:

Did you experience prejudice in Illinois in the late 1920s?
weren't very many Japanese there, were there?

There

No, but in certain areas — of course, social-wise it still was not
as heavy as out here on the coast, but still, [laughs] Some of
the funny things! How narrow people think.

15 /241

Domoto;

Riess:

Domoto;

I was president of the Cosmopolitan Club. We were going through
initiation with the young freshmen that we were going to pledge.
Of course, when you are in the Cosmopolitan Club you have a lot
of students from other countries. So naturally, initiation would
never be the kind of initiation that Greek-letter fraternities go
through. We'd make believe we might have, but it was never a
hazing type of initiation.

But this professor's son, he wanted to get to know the kids.
He wanted to go into the diplomatic corps. He looked up the
group and one of the other freshmen asked him to become a member,
so we gave them [the initiates] a long initiation period of
questions and answers, to see what their attitudes were, more than
anything else. It was past midnight. There came a phone call and
someone said, "It's for you, Prex."

"This is Professor So-and-So and if you are keeping my son
there, I don't want him to join anywhere some damn old foreigner
is giving them the works." And boy, did he read the riot act to
me! Fora professor, to say those things, they were supposed to
be knowledgeable!

So then I told him, "Look, you can say what you want. If you
don't want your son to join, that's up to you. But your son asked
to become a member of his own free will and I think he would make
a good member. But if you don't want him to, you talk it over with
him when he gets home. If he still doesn't want to, we'll abide
by it. But as far as any hazing, like you think that you've gone
through in your fraternity, we're not a bunch of damn fools like
you were." And that shut him up. He didn't say anything. About
two years after, about graduation time, we had a farewell dinner
and he apologized.

It sounds like it was an interesting group.
Club have many chapters?

Did the Cosmopolitan

I think there were only about two chapters in the States then
that had living groups. The rest of them were just social groups,
Actually, unless you live with the group you don't get to know
it; it's just a social group that would get together, like your
YMCA, or any of the groups where you just meet once a month, and
you get to know a person superficially. It is only when you live
with them and fight with them and talk with them or you have to
work with them together that then you get to know a person. But
at that time, Cornell and Illinois were the only two that really
had full accommodations where you lived in the house together.
Chicago had what they called International House, which is a part
of the same group, but they more or less kind of limited their
membership to the Christian faith. It didn't have to be, but it
was, more or less. So I don't think that they got the full cross
section of what a cosmopolitan group should be.

16 7242

Tom Domoto, Propagating and Hybridizing Chrysanthemums

mess: That is very interesting.

Your father was doing some hybridizing, or was that more your
interest?

Domoto: My father's early propagation and hybridizing work was with
chrysanthemums. His early catalogue shows some of the early
varieties and some of the awards that were received and some
catalogue letters that show, and the correspondence I have found,
were on the varieties that he had introduced. Carnations he worked
with some, but mostly chrysanthemums.

Riess: Was he self-taught? He and his brother hadn't had training in this?

Domoto: No, he was the only one that really went into it. The other brother
that came with him from Japan at the same time went into the
mercantile brokerage business.

Riess: I thought that when it said Domoto Brothers —

Domoto: Yes, the "brothers" was a younger brother; there were several
younger brothers that came after he got going. I think one of
them was with us for quite awhile. The other ones were [with us]
just a short while and [stayed] maybe five or ten years and then
left for health reasons or just went back to Japan. But one of them
stayed until we lost the property. But most of his education [in]
growing was all from self education.

Riess: When he had the booming business in 1910, what was called the New

Ranch and the twenty-five greenhouses, how many employees were there?

Domoto: They must have had [pause] nineteen or twenty people there, I guess.
They used to have bunkhouses for them, I know that. The bunkhouses,
I remember, I think there were at least twenty-one or twenty- two
rooms in the bunkhouse for the men.

Riess: These were single men who had just come over from Japan?

Domoto: Yes, and then there were a couple of other rooms for — the married
couples were mostly — the wife was probably helping to keep house
and the man worked in the nursery; not all of them, but in some
instances I think that was the way it worked. Otherwise, in some
cases the man would be the cook for the bunch and the wife would
either help the cook or they would be nursemaid. Those things kept
changing .

17 /243

Do mo to:
Riess:

Domoto :

Riess:

Domoto;

Riess:

Domoto:

Incidentally, Filoli had a big bunkhouse, too.
Where the Italian gardeners lived?

Yes. I don't know whether it is still there or not, but it was
quite an impressive building there, with a recreation kind of
room and everything. It was not the kind of ranch house — bunkhouse-
that you connect with the average farm commercial area. It was
really nicely put together.

Filoli is so isolated,
everything.

I guess they really had to provide

Yes, I guess the nearest — if they wanted to get down — they had to
go from there down that old road down into San Mateo or to the
railroad to get into San Francisco.

We really have to concentrate more on Filoli, much as I have a
whole lot more little questions for you. Domoto Brothers, Inc.,
closed at the time of the Depression and that was about when
your father was retiring anyway, or did that just knock him out
completely?

No, that's probably what knocked him out more than anything else.
He was at the age when his health was bad. But I think that's
probably what did it.

18 7244

III FILOLI, POST WORLD WAR II

Bulbs

Domoto: The other name that comes into my mind now at Filoli [is]

Peter Valinga. He was a Hollander that came over right after the
war, he and his wife.

Riess: After the First World War?

Domoto: Second. They sold Dutch bulbs and he put in quite a nice display.
He used to put in a display at the Oakland garden show, the spring
garden show, and I remember because he used to put on the regular
Dutch costume with the clogs, their wooden shoes. Before that,
I think they used to buy their bulbs through one of the other
bulb dealers — I don't know where he used to buy them — but because
of the garden exhibit they put in, he was able to break in there
and sell her an order of bulbs. He also made it a point that he
would like to set those bulbs out for her. I know that the
first year they came up, they were planted very carefully and of
course came up — and after that, why, he was in, because the
arrangement and the varieties and everything, he really made the
show.

Riess: That would have been just his specialty though?

Domoto: Just bulbs and then other things that they wanted. Along with
that, I think that this is about the period when Mrs. Roth
started to spend a little more time at Filoli instead of
traveling or else in the spring, when she would be there when the
gardens were in bloom, because they were traveling around all of
the time because of her interest in horses and the harness racing.
Quite often that season kind of tied in with the spring season,
and the result was that I know that the gardener said, "Mrs. Roth
doesn't see the prettiest time of the garden because she is out
or she comes in at night," and at night time, unless they have the
lights on, she didn't see it.

19 7245

Toichi, Troubleshooter

Domoto: When she started to enjoy the garden more, that is when I started
to get called out more and more to come down to see what — and
as far as the design, I am not a designer, but when they were
having trouble about where they should plant it where it would
grow, I could tell them the location. So that was my feeling, and
that is the way I have always told any of my customers, "I don't
know if they are going to look good there. That is not my
business. But if the soil or something is there, I can tell
you about the environment in relation to buildings or sunshine.
I can tell you whether it will grow there or not. But whether
that is going to be right plant for there or not, I don't know.
You have to get somebody else to do that."

Riess: With the soil, do you just go by feel or were you doing tests?

Domoto: No, I could do some tests but most of it [was] from seeing what is
growing. Most of the gardens are not new. They are old
gardens and seeing what is growing there otherwise. If there is
like azaleas or rhododendrons, they are making the beds anyway.
So if they wanted to plant rhododendrons or azaleas there, why,
we'd go ahead and do it. But some of the things were learned there,
In the front garden, the court garden, over the years, that whole
section, they used to have a lot of Hinodegiri azaleas in there.
They started to go out and then gradually we replaced them once and
they still kept [failing]. We couldn't figure it out. I think it
was just before Mr. Thiringer. He may have already been there, but
I think it was a man before him, as I recall. What is Thiringer 's
first name?

Riess: Leslie.

Domoto: No, it was someone else, [pause]
short time.

But this man was there just a

What we found was that the roots of those big maples in the
courtyard were coming up into the beds . So they decided to put a
false bed in there and make a bed and put the azaleas on top. They
put four-by-fours I guess in and some planks on there and put the
peat moss on top, and they closed the ends off so it wouldn't show
the boards. [With] the humidity in there, the roots still went up
through air space up to the top. So then later they had to leave
an air space where the roots would be air pruned because it was
coming through and the air would dry the roots before it had a
chance to go up into the top .

20 7246

Domoto: I don't know if they have still kept it, but that was the only way
they could keep — the annuals, they didn't have too much trouble,
because they would dig a hole and the flowers come up and they
are gone. Most of the annual flowers were grown in the greenhouse
and then as soon as they are ready to flower and Mrs. Roth was
having a party or something, they would bring it down and set it
around the base of the trees . Then when two or three days are
over, they would take it back and the greenhouse would have to
supply some more plants to keep that cover going.

But the permanent plants, when the roots are in competition,
that's when they start to get into trouble. That's because the
trees got bigger and bigger.

Riess : That's interesting. I can't remember whether they still have
azaleas around there .

Domoto: They still have the azaleas, but whether they still kept that false
bottom in there or not, I don't know. But that was the solution
for it and then I think one of the magnolias they had in there
finally died. We are not sure whether it was oak root fungus.
It could be, because by that time oak root fungus started to
grow in there and we weren't sure whether the azaleas were going
from oak root fungus or they were in competition with the maple
tree roots.

Riess: I never thought about oak root fungus, but of course the whole
area could have been infected.

Domoto: Yes, it could be but without having an actual autopsy of the thing
ahead of time, until after they were gone and destroyed, we have
no way of telling what caused it.

Riess: Is your philosophy in general to replace or do you try to save?

Domoto: Yes, I think so, to just go ahead and replace. You are familiar
with the area down there?

Riess : Yes .

Domoto: Do you know where the garage is? There is a little planting, a
court circle there, a sort of a border. I don't know what is
planted there now, but at one time I think they had Raphiolepsis
or something in there and the deer used to eat it up. So then
they found that the Sasanqua camellias were not being chewed by
the deer. So she planted that whole bed with Shishi Gashira and
the edging, I think, is boxwood if I remember — either boxwood or
myrtle, but I think it is boxwood. They got just above the boxwood

21 7247

Domoto: and they started to make a nice cover for that mound there and then
all of a sudden they started to get chewed on. They couldn't figure
it out. It wasn't the old deer, it was the young deer that started
to chew on it! [laughter]

Riess: They already had developed a little taste for it!

Domoto: Yes, I guess so. They didn't mind the bitterness or whatever it
was of the foliage.

22 /248

IV MISS ISABELLA WORN

Riess: What do you personally remember of Isabella Worn?
Domoto: Personality-wise, she was very decisive.
Riess: That is not very good in a woman" maybe?

Domoto: No, she wasn't [bad]. Like my sister said, she would arrive and
say, "Where's your father?" [sharply] "Go call him." And my
sister says, "I never liked her, because she was too bossy."

Riess: Do you think that was her behavior with everybody?

Domoto: Yes — and not inclined to be too talkative until later. She knew
just exactly what she wanted and she made up her mind what she
wanted and that was what she wanted. But I noticed in her later
years when she came, she used to ask me, or ask Mrs. Domoto,
"What do you think of this or that for color?" Alice used to say,
"Gee, Miss Worn is getting older, she is asking," and before, that
was the last thing she would do, ask what you thought about this or
that. She would make the decision and that was final.

Riess: Was there a way of introducing her to new varieties? After all,
she was coming to a place where new things were happening all of
the time.

Domoto: She would ask, "What do you have new?" Or she would spot the new
things. She had an eye for new things, or things that would fit
into the different areas, or for different customers that she had
in mind. Actually, landscape-wise was a little later thing for her.
First, mainly she was an interior decorator.

Riess: Yes, that's what I've heard, making arrangements for parties.

23 /249

Domoto: Making floral decorations. I remember going over to — I saw the

effects afterwards and heard about it later — that we had supplied
her with a lot of Van derCraysen azaleas that had been forced for
this big party that was going to be held in I think it was the
Fairmont Hotel. There was this whole big mass on the wall and I
couldn't figure out how they were all stuck up there. After, we
found out she had just broke them and stuck them up in there
because this was an over-night affair.

Someone said that at that time sort of a competitor of hers —
not a real competitor, but trying to do the same kind of work —
was a florist maned Stein in San Francisco. I understand he happened
to be watching her starting to do it and she saw him and they tell
me that she said [firmly], "Get that man out of here and close that
door! I'm not going to work anymore until you get him out of the
room!" [laughter] That's what they told me the next day when I
was looking at that. And that was her. She would do what she had
in mind. She had a certain way she had to go and it would either
be Miss Worn's way or no other way. But she had the good taste of
doing it and when she got through, it looked good, so she could
get by with it.

1 think when you are dealing with society league people that
are spoiled — not all, but a lot of them have had their way and they
want their way or rather they think they know what they want — to
be able to go in there and tell them, "No, that's not the way it
should go, [it should go] this way," and to do it and get by
with it, you have to have the personality that she did in order
to be able to do it.

Riess: Yes, I think you are right.

Domoto: I think she was a good psychologist. But inside she was a very warm
person.

Riess: How do you know?

Domoto: Being an old maid and putting her nieces and nephews through school
and paying for their family and everything, without their knowing
too much about it. I don't know to this day whether — sometimes, a
couple of times, in talking, the others seem to kind of slight her,
but knowing what she was doing, after her talking to my father
about what she had done or was doing, I have a feeling that a lot
of things she was doing for them was on the sly.

Riess: So she opened up to your father.

24 /250

Domoto;

Riess:
Domo to :

Riess:
Domo to :

Riess :

Domo to :

Riess :

Domo to :

Riess:
Domoto:

Oh yes, because my father was pretty much that way, kind of brusque
sometimes. He would be very frank to some people, and maybe he
was too frank, but what he did say, why most of the time was the
truth. So that was it.

She had a nephew who has a nursery in San Anselmo, Donald Perry?

Yes, he still has it, I think, or he may have sold it. But the
nursery I think is still operating, the Sunnyside Nursery. He
may have sold it and the name may still be kept there.

I was wondering how many nurseries did she use?
all exclusively?

Did she use you

Oh no, no, she went all over, wherever she could get potted plants,
she would go to Geneva, Evergreen, James. Cut flowers she would
get, like roses if she needed a bunch of roses for a home, a lot
of cut roses, Avansino's for cut flowers. She knew who to depend
on for the best in the line of materials she needed.

How about some of the eastern mail order places?
gardeners use Burpee, Wayside?

Did western

I think some of them did. I think Wayside, to what extent they
did out here I don't know.

Would there be things that would be exclusive to those like
Burpee or Wayside?

Wayside, most of their things until recently were material that
was more or less geared for the middle western [and] eastern states.
The Pacific Coast area, we were always the outcast. In other
words, west of the Milwaukee and mountain states we had another
price and unless it was really something good, we were kind of
balking at that extra tax they stuck on.

So it wasn't that the materials were not adaptable to western —

No, but you see most a lot of the things that they had were
deciduous things. Once an easterner comes out to California and
stays out here for awhile, outside of maybe lilacs and peonies,
they want flowers all the year around. They want a shrub. [They
will say], "Gee, only one time of flower? No flowers all year
around?" They get spoiled, just like with the weather. They
forget that there is four seasons. But they do miss their four
seasons once in awhile.

25 /251

Rless:

Domoto:

Riess:

Domoto:

Rless :

Domoto:

Riess:

Domoto:

Yes, I have read a lot about your development of tree peonies and
yet still I don't see peonies that much in California.

Well, you won't find them any other place either because their
propagation is so difficult, [pause; looking in phone book] Yes,
there is a Sunnyside Nursery in San Anselmo . It is still there.
It doesn't say who the owner is any more, but it is still there.

That is interesting to know. Did you deal also with Miss Worn
when you were in your own business or was she retired by then?

No, she was still buying materials not only for Filoli but for
the other people down the peninsula and San Francisco.

In fact, she worked for San Simeon, did you say?
connection with Julia Morgan?

It was the

Yes, she came out, as I remember, to my dad's place, with Julia
Morgan. But Miss Worn went around the San Leandro area at that
time picking up a lot of the trees in the yards that were available,
We were buying plants, too, at that time. We used to go out and,
with like magnolias and camellias, we used to go out with a crew
and dig them up and bring them in and establish them for sale.

But quite often we would go in there to buy something and
then they would say, "It's already sold." I would say, "Who
bought it?" "I don't know, some lady came and bought it."
Almost invariably of course she would pay more than we would
because of going direct and that was the time when San Simeon was
being developed. Some was freighted down, but some of the bigger
plants were barged down, especially after the fair. A lot of the
things had to be barged down. The roads weren't that good and the
trucks now, of course, they have these big semis but in those days
they were so small that you couldn't transport more than one or
two trees. But you could put them on a big barge in San Francisco
or in Oakland and the barge could go on down and land right
down there because Hearst built a dockside down there for all of
these European things to come in. So a lot of the camellias that
are down there came from the San Leandro-Sacramento area.

So she was the designer also, you are saying, for most of the big
estates on the peninsula side?

I don't think so much designing. I think most of that design part
was already in. I think she was more actually helping to fill in.
Like Filoli, the main part was already in. There wasn't too much
to change. But, for instance, she would want some plants for in
the corridor or the room or for this jar or that jar in there or

26 /252

Domoto: if they were going to have a party in the ballroom she would want
some plants for the decoration for the party that was going to be
held in the ballroom, that type of material, that was what we were
called on mostly to supply.

Then, as far as the camellia varieties that went down there,
Mrs. Roth used to come on her own in the camellia season.

Riess: And see them in bloom here?

Domoto: See them in bloom or ask which was in and ask me to send them over
and then select them.

Riess: How was it to work with Mrs. Roth?
Domoto: Oh, very easy.

Riess: She would defer to you or would she have a point of view that was
very —

Domoto: Oh no, there were certain things that she, as long as it would fit
into her garden, why, that was it. But I think, unless it didn't
fit in and didn't grow, if it wouldn't grow there, she would say,
"Would it fit some other place?" That was the way she would ask.

Riess: Because she would be attracted to the plant itself? She was drawn
to it?

Domoto: Yes.

27 7253

V APPRECIATING THE CHARACTER OF GARDENS

Riess :

Domoto :

Riess :
Domoto :

Riess:
Domoto:

Riess :

It occurred to me to wonder whether you would send any of your
customers then to see something in a site or location at Filoli.
People might say to you, "How does this really look? How does it

grow?"

No, I don't do that. Neither Filoli nor some of the other places.
No, I feel that the garden is their own place. If it's like a
park, it's different. But a private home, unless they have a very
rare tree that they are very, very proud of and I know that they
are showing it to people, I will say, "There is a garden in Piedmont
where it is growing" or "There is a garden in Berkeley I know where
it grows well." But as far as telling them that they should go
see it, I don't, I never did. Quite often — and I always felt the
same way — a person puts a garden in and you don't like to have every
Tom, Dick and Harry. The thing is, that the people that you would
like to have come in are the ones that respect that. The ones that
you would just as soon not come in are the most brazen that come in.

Yes , I'm sure!

So I feel they are not going to miss anything. The other thing,
the ones who are the most brazen are the ones who don't always
absorb what they should see.

Perhaps so; that sounds very Japanese.

Their ego is, "I went to see so-and-so's place." "What did you
see there?" "I don't know," or what they tell you they saw is
kind of superficial.

That is interesting, because when you think of the way tours of
gardens are run, it is^ often a tour of the names of things. This,
I think, is very western, this kind of checking off the names of
things, rather than experiencing it.

28 /254

Demote: Is it? I don't think so. I think it all depends on the person.
I don't think it's a matter of race or color. You go into a
certain garden and the way it is put together, they say, "Gee,
this garden has a certain feeling." If it is really an intimate
garden, it reflects the feeling of the person that has done it
or his character. But if it is done by an architect, it doesn't
reflect the owner's character sometimes.

Now it is changing quite a bit, but for awhile I could go
up to any of the peninsula gardens — of all the gardens we have
supplied materials to, I have never visited but very few of them.
But I could go into the garden and say, "This is Tommy Church's
garden, this is so-and-so's garden, or this is so-and-so's design."
There would be certain ways the plants were put in, the type of
materials put in there, that would almost be the same as putting
a signature at the bottom of a painting.

Riess: I guess what I was thinking about is the question, when you go

through a garden, whether it is even necessary to name what things
are.

Domoto: The only time it would be necessary is if someone is interested in
recording it for planting themselves or finding out what it would
do and also, the picture as a whole you appreciate as an ensemble,
not as each piece of a costume.

Riess: Yes, I think so and yet Filoli seems to be like a real sort of
garden club because there are so many things to learn.

Domoto: Yes, and it has been changed. For instance, the natural garden,

over the years they have tried to keep things in there that would be
growing naturally, that garden up in back of their tennis courts.
Then the rose garden, of course, was the formal garden. They
used to have — I don't know if they are still there — a row of
espalliered fruit trees going back.

Riess: Yes, I think that has kind of fallen by the wayside.

Domoto: Yes, that takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of work to keep it
pruned up.

Riess: I think their intention is to start that again actually.

Domoto: But where are you going to get the men to do it? By men I mean the
skill to do it.

29 7255

VI TEACHING THE SKILLS; FLORICULTURE SCHOOLS

Riess: You must know Mai Abergast.

Do mo to: Yes.

Riess: Mai Abergast has hopes that it will be a school.

Domoto: Yes, but then who is going to teach this school? You could put

up a school and get the dollars for it, but who is going to teach
it? Where are the teachers?

Riess: I don't know. Where are the teachers? Do people use you as a
teacher?

Domoto: No, I refuse to teach.

Riess: And the School of Floriculture at the University of Illinois?

Domoto: Well, that's the old group. See, the schools like that go in cycles,
It is only as good as the man in charge that knows something and
then it passes the prime and unless they have some of the younger
people coming in that have the same dedication, it passes on. At
one time in the line of floriculture it was Cornell, then it was
Illinois, and then it became Ohio State, then it became Michigan.
I don't follow it that closely, but is so happened that at Ohio
State was one of the students of Professor Dohner from Illinois.
Then Michigan became quite prominent in floricultural work
because of a classmate of mine in Illinois [who was there] . The
same as Davis now. For a long time we used to kind of turn up our
noses at Davis. But now it has come right up because they have
people up there that are [not only] experimental minded, but more
on the side that will apply to either the nursery or forestry or
to the garden group. They have to be able to sell themselves, not
only the knowledge that they know. Unless they can sell themselves,
the knowledge doesn't go over.

30 /256

Riess : Do you mean more so than in the other trades because they deal with
the public so much?

Domoto: Yes, I think so. I think in anything, besides just the knowledge,
unless you can impart that knowledge to someone else, unless it is
something that can be written down and you can absorb it like a
math problem or a chemistry equation. But in other things you
have to be able to impart that enthusiasm for that subject.

Riess: Yes, right, but on the other hand, some people might argue that
everybody now has a little of this knowledge through Sunset
Magazine and through horticultural journals.

Domoto: But that is the sad part of it. They have just a — you know, when
you are cooking, you have a smattering but the last bit that goes
in that gives that little difference in the taste that [makes you]
say, "Gee, this is good," or "Why doesn't this one taste just as
good?" That is what's missing.

I think there is a possibility, as they go along with Filoli —
I have high hopes for Filoli, I like the place, the environment
is good — and it is only a matter of time that I look forward to
seeing it as a western arboretum, because it is big enough, and
the climate is a lot better than Golden Gate Park. Golden Gate
Park is fine for rhododendrons, just that type of material. But
for general nursery stock, nursery ornamentals, not so good.

They [Filoli] could develop, for instance, a collection of
almost any kind of shrubs. You were talking about peonies. Now,
peonies down there where they planted them have done well . Look
how well the maples have done in their court over the years , [how]
the magnolias have done. Granted some of the soil has been made
over, but after that original made-over soil is used up, and the
roots go out, and you see how some of the other things are growing,
that means that the surroundings and the basic structure is good.

31/257

VII ITALIAN GARDENERS

Riess : Did the Italian gardeners really develop as garden experts , do you
think, or were they more just laborers?

Domoto: There is a cycle there. I may be wrong, but originally, if you
check — I think he is still alive — Clarence Hoff in Oakland near
Mills College, you might check with him on the original membership
of the Pacific Coast Horticultural Society. That used to be all
white — all white and mostly Scotch and Irish, very few Italians
in there, almost none. Of course, there are some florist groups
like Podesta-Baldocchi. But the rest of them are outsiders. But
the other group, the horticultural society itself, if you look
at the names there, [they are] Irish, some German, but there are
few other names in there. You might ask him. He is retired now.
He used to be at Hallowell's for a long time, but he is retired
now. I think he has his buttons still and you could just ask him.

Riess: Actually, that reminds me, when I was doing a Thomas Church oral
history, that I interviewed a nursery man who was near Colma
who was an Italian.*

Domoto: Tommy Church used to buy a lot of plants from Pacific Nursery at
Colma. Lou Schenone was in that, but then Lou was about the
fourth generation there. Before Lou his boss was Kempf. But
you see the son [Paul] served in the army in the group there and
he wasn't interested too much in the nursery and Lou was his
foreman, so he took over the operation and did a good job of it.
But the original Kempf was a German with a German accent and he was
the one who had the Pacific Nursery and they used to grow a lot of
shrubs and bedding plants. Before that, there used to be, I think
we had an old catalogue — I think I sent that over to the Strybing —
was Ludemann.

Riess: So this doesn't prove anything about Italians.

*Thomas D. Church, Landscape Architect, Two volumes, Regional Oral
History Office, University of California, Berkeley, 1978.

32 /258

Domoto: No, and as far as the flower market is concerned, at first there
was no market at all. Probably flowers were being sold here and
there. My father started in selling some and then people started
to bring them in. The carnation growers from this side of the
bay, and down the peninsula — the peninsula was mostly chrysanthemum
growers. The original Japanese growers were mostly in chrysanthemums,
and some carnations, but mostly chrysanthemums. On this side,
a lot of them were in carnations and roses. They used to have these
bamboo baskets that were about four feet long and two by two .
They would pack the flowers in there and put them on their back
and take the steam trains to the Mole, and take the ferry over to
San Francisco, and then sell them over there.

Then at that time, the first place that I remember was Lick
Place where they had the store and that was where Miss Worn used
to have her business on the second floor above the store for
quite a while. The original flower market was in the basement.

Then from there they moved over to Bush Street, on the corner
of Bush and St. Anne where the telephone exchange is. That used
to be the big market. Then from there they moved down to Fifth
Street, and from Fifth they moved up to Brannen. But at the time
between I would say Lick Place and even up to the early days
of St. Anne's, mostly the Italian growers came in with the
maidenhair fern. They were raising maidenhair and violets.
Most of their violets were for shipping out. In those days
McLellan, Domoto, Enomotos, used to do a big shipping of violets
and chrysanthemums .

If

Domoto: The Italians, I think, were mostly growing vegetables first. Then
my feeling is that most of them being devout Catholics, they have
to have flowers to take to the cemetery.

Riess: Yes, and to the altar.

Domoto: — Or to the altar. If they can't go and buy them and the woman is
quite good, she will plant a few seeds to grow some flowers for
decoration day or whatever day to have some. Pretty soon they
find, when they go to market with the vegetables to the vegetable
market, they take some into the market. They found out that
bunch of calendulas around there or whatever they brought in was
bringing in more than the bunch of radishes that they were bringing
in. So gradually the flowers took over, and the same with your
original maidenhair growers that used to grow maidenhair and
asparagus and also , in those days , the smilax in long garlands for
decoration. It was used in festooning the dinner tables. Those
were mostly grown in those long houses by the Italian gardeners.

33 7259

Domoto: Then from there they started getting into pot plants. But up till
that time most of the pot plants were being raised by the Japanese
growers and some of the German growers. Then the Italian growers
got in. Geneva was one of the biggest ones that got in, the
Podesta Brothers and some of those came in. But I think all of
it ties in with the availability of cheap labor. When my father
was operating, we had a number of trainees, so-called, where they
had agricultural training in Japan, coming over here either wanting
to study or there were some that came over with the idea of
evading the conscription — compulsory military training.

Of course, that stopped and then pretty soon the immigration
laws stopped them from coming in — quotas. Then for a while there
the Italian group — there was no restriction on those. They came
in quite heavily. So they were being used quite heavily like in
Geneva's there. Along in '28, '29, and the thirties I used to go
over to the market there to go down to Geneva's to buy some
potted plants to sell. If I went over there at lunch time and they
were having lunch, it was fun to sit down at the table with them.
They would have this long dinner table and the spaghetti and macaroni
was being served in these great big tin wash trays or casters.
They would take it [demonstrates rolling it] right on down the
line. Then right next to it were these big casks of wine.
They could go up there and get all they wanted.

Then the unions came in and then they had to change that
because they couldn't have no more free time to go and drink their
vino whenever they wanted to. They had to have a rest period and
all of this, different things that they wanted. So then they
cut out going to the wine bar whenever they wanted. They cut the
time down. They used to work from dawn to dusk. They would go up
there in order to drink the wine or eat there or whatever they
wanted to do .

They used to make it kind of tough for me because when I would
go out to buy something at the place, they always insisted that I
have a cup of vino and since I don't drink, at first — after they
got to know me, but before that they thought I was refusing their
hospitality. But those are the changes that you see.

34 /260

VIII PRUNING AT FILOLI

Riess: I wondered how many people were brought in from the outside or

whether they tried, when Filoli was rolling, to have a completely
self-sufficient crew.

Domoto: My first trip down there, I think at that time they said, "We don't
use the bunkhouse as much as we used to . " But even then I think
they had about nine or eleven gardeners .

Riess: Yes, that is what I've heard.

Domoto: Yes, because to keep up the formal beds with the annuals and

planting the annuals — and they used to grow all of those annuals
themselves — that took a lot of help. When the costs started to go
up, then they found out that they could go out and buy the plants
a lot cheaper than they could grow them themselves and get better
plants that were more uniform.

Riess: How about pruners?

Domoto: The heavy pruning of the trees, I think, was done by this Davey
tree man that would come in about once or twice here or whenever
it was necessary, especially [for] the low hanging branches that
were dangerous, they would have them come in. The garden pruning,
some of it was I would say — there was one period there when it was
neglected pretty bad. When Mr. Thiringer finally took over, I went
down and some of the camellias were way out into the walks and
everything. He said, "Do you think it would be all right to
prune these back to give more room to the walk?" I said, "Yes, it
won't hurt any." So he said, "I'm going to prune them when Mrs.
Roth isn't around." I said, "Just forget about that, but do it when
the season is right and when I see Mrs. Roth I will tell her that
they should be pruned back," and I was pretty sure that she would
agree with me.

35 /261

Domoto: I think one thing that really kind of impressed Mrs. Roth was

they had one big weeping cherry tree in the yard. I think it's
gone now. The borers finally got hold of it. But at the head of
the formal gardens there was a big weeping cherry. At the top
borers or something — it got sunburned and borers had gotten it.
They were about ready to take it out. The tree man had said,
"Take it out."

Thiringer asked me. Well, I said, "Maybe if you clean it
out and shade it a little bit, you might be able to save it. But
it's going to look bad for awhile," because whereas it used to cover
maybe about twelve or fourteen feet, it was down to about three feet.
He said he would try. Fortunately, I guess, in that following
season it started to come up, because in the meantime, if we had
found another replacement, I know that that would have gone out and
we would have put the tree in. But the biggest replacement they
could find, the head was no bigger than the tree they were putting
in. So we did send one down there, but to be kept as a reserve to
put in there later. When that one started to come out with having
a root system there, it really took over again.

I think she had quite a bit of confidence in him then because
not having a full gardener's training — but he was very thorough —
I think he was an attorney or a judge before he came over.

Riess : I didn't realize that he had that background, but I knew that he
was sent to horticultural school here, wasn't he?

Domoto: No, he used to go to horticultural classes at night. I forgot who
the teacher was, but he [Thiringer] asked me questions. [He'd
say], "You know, that guy don't know nothing." He said, "1 can
pick up that stuff from the books. But he don't tell me the
nitty gritty. The thing I want to find out, I ask him and he
kind of puts me off."

So I would say, "I can't tell you, but I'll try to find out
for you," and I would give him the information. But he was very
thorough. Everything he would write down in his own notes. Like
the camellias [were] in there, the different ones — he made a list
of their names and where they were located and then if some of the
labels were gone, he would start to relabel them so that he could
remember what they were.

When the big wisteria that goes around the top of the building
was getting all viney and rough, and then I think it was the eugenia
on the side, it got too big — and now I think they took that out,
because it could be taken out, and put something else in — anyway,

36 /262

Domoto: the wisteria was getting so viney and that was when I was able to
get Mr. Okasaki, the man I had doing my bonsai work, to go down
there and do the pruning on the [wisteria] . I would say that he
probably might have been the first Japanese gardener to work on
the place as far as I know. There may have been others but most
of the others were Italian because the head gardener was Italian
and I doubt very much if there were any Japanese on there before
that.

Riess: So when Mr. Okasaki was there, did he then just come in by day?

Domoto: He just went in there for that time for the wisteria. Because

he did a good job on the wisteria, there was a big chamaecyparis
obtusa [Hinoki cypress] in the front that had come over on both
sides and had really outgrown itself there. Mr. Thiringer wanted
to have him prune that out and it was on the edge of the stairway.
It closed off about half or better than half, I guess, of the
small walkway. When they cut that back, of course you had almost
a full sweep of the steps. Underneath all of the branches that
came across — I forget what it was . It was either an old Italian
vase or a figure that was supposed to match one of the others that
they thought was lost and here it had been underneath all of the
branches there. Then when that came out, of course, it really
looked good. So I think since then, they have had him back to do
some of that topiary type of pruning and then some of the
pruning of the trees, the bonsai trees [that were] around, that
type of pruning. I think he had gone back for that.

'But the big trees and the roadway tree pruning, I think
that is still Davey or some other tree group comes in for that.

I think for a while there Stocking Roses in San Jose was
supplying them with roses .

Transcriber: Michelle Stafford
Final Typist: Steven A. Wartofsky

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267

INDEX — Lurline Matson Roth

American- Hawaiian Steamship Co., 75, 76
American President Steamship Line, 103

Baldwin, Bill, 94, 97

Bourn, William B. and Agnes, 40, 41, 112, 113, 122, 123, 127

Brackett, Berenice Grant Martin (Mrs. Larry), 48, 50

Brown, Emily (Mrs. Hillyer Brown), 134, 144, 145

Bruce, Florence (Mrs. Starr Bruce), 124

Brundage, Avery, 104

Gate's School, 108, 109'

Chamberlain, Edith (Mrs. Selah) , 92

Chief of Longview, 42-44, 46, 49, 58

Clark, Cecilia Tobin, 58

Combs, Loulu Long, 42, 44, 46, 47, 59

Coonan, Lurline Roth, 32, 36, 37, 39, 50, 106, 138

Cox, Mrs. Jessie, 59

Diehl, Frances (Mrs. Ambrose), 92
Dollar Steamship Lines, 103
Domoto, Toichi, 119, 120
Duquette, Tony, 140-142

Earhart, Amelia, 34, 35
Edgewood Home, San Francisco, 91, 92
Ets-Hokin, Rose (Mrs. Louis), 97
Eugenides, Eugene, 102, 103

Fergusson, Erna, 61, 74, 77, 81

Filoli

butler, 114

cooks, 142

deer, 120, 138

Filoli Center, 136

flower arranging, 115-117

fruit trees, 122, 123

garden catalogues, 121, 123

garden clubs, 134, 135, 144, 145

gardeners, 100, 101, 112, 113

Getty Museum, and Filoli, 138, 139

268

Filoli (continued)
hedges, 130, 135
house, 138ff 145
Indian mounds, 126, 139
picnics, 124
public tours, 132, 139
purchase, by Roths, 38-41
United Nations lunch, 142, 143
vegetable gardens, 122, 123
wartime arrangement, 100, 101

Folger, Mrs. & Mrs. Roy, 55, 91

Grand National Horse Show, Cow Palace, 48, 58, 59

Harris, Mr. & Mrs. Larry, 55

Hawaii, plantation life in Hilo, 8, 9, 11, 85-88

Hayden, Lon, 43, 44, 47, 49, 51

Heil, Walter, 105

Herzstein, Morris, 84

Hillsborough Garden Club, 144, 145

horses

breeding and training, 45, 46

and dope, 53-55

gait, 50, 60

naming, 56, 57

the Oakland fire, 44, 47

Quarter horses, 52, 53, 57

riding habits, 58

riding, learning to, 48, 49, 51

shows, 43, 48, 58, 59

stablemen, and drinking, 43, 47

Tennessee Walking horses, 54

women owners and breeders, 42, 43, 46, 59

Jackling, Daniel & Virginia, 38, 55
Johnson, Peter, 63-65
Josselyn, Marjorie, 114

Kales, Marie, 26

Lapham, Roger, 142, 143
Longworth, Alice, 34
Low, Barbara (Mrs. James L. Low), 11
Low, James Reed, Sr. , 9-11, 78

269

Low, James L. , 11

Low, Lillie B. See Matson, Lillie Low

the Lurline, 7, 8, 10, 73-75

McCall, Mrs. William, 59

McCarty, Alfred M. , 2

McMahon, Maidie, 26

Madison, Elena (Mrs. Marshall Madison), 94, 95

Matson, Charles P., 6, 62, 63

Matson, Lillie Low, 2, 5, 8ff 29, 32, 34, 44, 45, 65, 66, 74, 75, 77ff 87,

91, 92, 110
Matson, William, Iff 32, and

as consul general, 3, 27

as captain, 4, 20

at Leeside, 14, 15

and business, 17, 81, 84, 85

dreams, 20, 22

clubs, 21, 22

houses, 14, 15, 18, 25, 77, 79, 80, 82, 83

horses, 26, 62, 82, 83

and the San Francisco earthquake and fire, 77-79

and debt, 81

and illness, 21-23, 84
Matson Navigation Company history

flag, 8, 65, 66

ships

Lurline (brig), 7, 8, 10, 73-75
Enterprise, 8, 70, 72, 75, 76
William Frederick, 61
Mission Canal, 61
Falls of Clyde, 63, 65, 67, 69, 88
Roderick Dhu, 66, 67, 69, 70
Santiago, 69
Hyades , 76

Waverly Line, 67

Falls Line, 67

cruising, 72, 73, 90

seasickness remedies, 69

shuffleboard, 70, 71

barges and scows, 61, 71

World War II, 101, 102

William P. Roth, 31

and airline business, 34, 35, 85
Menlo Circus Club, 55, 56
Menzies, Lolly, 50, 141
Mills, Susan (Mrs. Cyrus Mills), 15, 16
Moffitt, Herbert C. , 15, 55
Moore, M*s. Paul, 59
Mo riconi, Louis, 113, 121
Morrison, Stan, 48
Mountain Storm, 56

270

Onassis, Aristotle, 103, 103
Osborn, Hadley, 128ff 139

Peixotto, Ernest, 129

Polk, Willis, 129

Porter, Bruce, 112, 113, 117, 118, 128, 129, 131

Red Cross, in San Francisco, World II, 92-99

Camp and Hospital, 92, 93

cookie ladies, 93, 94, 97

funding, 95, 99

Hilo Hattie, 94
Rock, Charles, 61-63, 83
Roth, Jessica, 50
Roth, Lurline Matson

birth, 1

trips to the Islands as a child, 13, 14, 86-90

at Leeside, 14-17, 23, 24

art and music lessons, 16, 28, 29

and Matson business, 17, 81, 84, 85

marriage and children, 30-37, 107-111

in Woodside, 37-41

and horses, 42-60, 99, 100

Red Cross work, 92-99

De Young Museum work, 104, 105

See Matson Navigation Company history, horses, Filoli
Roth, William Matson, 32, 36, 76, 77, 107-111
Roth, William P., 30ff 41, 44, 49, 60, 85, 104, 111

San Francisco

earthquake and fire, 77ff 82

Fine Arts Museum, 104, 105
Brundage Collection, 104

stables ,

Kelly's, 77, 78
Lawson's, 21, 26

San Francisco General Hospital, auxiliary, 105, 106
Schilling, Rudolph and Alexandra, 55, 145
Scott, Jean, 60

Spalding, Berenice Roth (Mrs. Charles Spalding) , 32, 36, 47, 141
the Spreckels , Glaus and sons , 5,7

the Lurline, 7
Sterling, Wallace, 136, 137
Sweetheart on Parade, 44, 46
Swinerton, Alfred, 36
Swinterton, Jane (Mrs. Alfred), 26

271

Tenney, Edward D., 31, 64

Thiringer, Leslie, 121, 122

Thompson, Alice (Mrs. Frank Thompson), 33, 60

United Nations. See Filoli

Van Sindren, Mrs. Adrian, 59
Vincent, Billy, 40, 139

Walter, Clarence, 56

White, Ian, 105

Why Worry Farm, 37, 38, 45, 59

Woodside Trail Club, 40, 55, 56

Woods ide-Ather ton Garden Club, 134, 135, 144, 145

Worden, William L., 64, 71

Worn, Isabella, 112, 114-120, 134, 140

Yuill-Thornton, Alex, 129
the Zabriskies, 65

Suzanne Bassett Riess

Grev up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
Graduated from Goucher College, B.A. in
English, 1957.

Post-graduate work, University of London
and the University of California, Berkeley,
in English and history of art.

Feature writing and assistant woman's page
editor, Globe-Times , Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Free-lance writing and editing in Berkeley.
Volunteer work on starting a new Berkeley
newspaper .
Natural science decent at the Oakland Museum.

Editor in the Regional Oral History Office
since I960, interviewing in the fields of
art, cultural history, environmental design,
photography, Berkeley and University history.

,

.*•