1 00:00:11,74 --> 00:00:16,67 Thank you very much indeed. And thank you for coming along it's great to see so 2 00:00:16,68 --> 00:00:22,78 many people here. All talk for a bit and then. We have a have 3 00:00:22,79 --> 00:00:27,72 a conversation some questions. And then if there's time I think you should all we 4 00:00:27,73 --> 00:00:32,83 should all right work across hot coals in our back feet using only the power of 5 00:00:32,84 --> 00:00:39,79 positive thinking to. Keep from burning. When I began 6 00:00:39,80 --> 00:00:45,59 doing the reporting for this for this book which is in brief about what's wrong 7 00:00:45,60 --> 00:00:49,44 with the idea in the culture of positive thinking and what the alternatives might 8 00:00:49,45 --> 00:00:54,73 be. I want to make a vacation of femina in Texas part of 9 00:00:54,74 --> 00:00:59,89 a series called Get Motivated I'm trying to pronounce the explanation point and the 10 00:00:59,90 --> 00:01:05,24 name. One of the speakers was a guy called Robert Schuller who is 11 00:01:05,25 --> 00:01:09,30 a veteran self-help author and also in his other job he's the founder of the 12 00:01:09,31 --> 00:01:13,77 largest church in America constructed entirely out of glass. And he told 13 00:01:13,78 --> 00:01:17,61 a fit if we wanted to six it's an achievement and he told us that if we wanted to 14 00:01:17,62 --> 00:01:22,62 succeed if we wanted guaranteed success all we had to do was to eliminate the word 15 00:01:22,88 --> 00:01:28,14 impossible from my vocabulary in other words if you focus only on things working 16 00:01:28,15 --> 00:01:32,46 out and that's how to make sure that things will indeed work out 17 00:01:34,87 --> 00:01:39,46 a few months later I saw in the news that his church had filed for bankruptcy. 18 00:01:42,84 --> 00:01:43,47 Which is 19 00:01:43,51 --> 00:01:49,03 a word he evidently failed to eliminate from his recovery. Actually since this book 20 00:01:49,04 --> 00:01:51,09 went to the printer has since been printed just 21 00:01:51,10 --> 00:01:54,84 a couple of months ago someone told me I found out and confirmed it but get 22 00:01:54,85 --> 00:02:01,85 motivated itself has filed for bankruptcy. I want to be quite seriously clear I'm 23 00:02:01,86 --> 00:02:05,33 not knocking people for going bankrupt I'm 24 00:02:05,34 --> 00:02:09,69 a newspaper journalist so I have to think hard about the possibility of bankruptcy 25 00:02:10,27 --> 00:02:16,58 but clearly something is wrong with these guaranteed methods of success when they 26 00:02:16,59 --> 00:02:23,56 don't guarantee success for the people who promote them I want to talk 27 00:02:23,57 --> 00:02:27,41 first today about something that is far less amusing about something really awful 28 00:02:27,42 --> 00:02:32,50 actually which is what happened. The tragedy that unfolded on Mount Everest in one 29 00:02:32,51 --> 00:02:36,59 thousand nine hundred six if you read John Krakauer excellent book Into Thin Air 30 00:02:36,60 --> 00:02:41,22 you'll know all about this in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight climbers died 31 00:02:41,23 --> 00:02:45,85 in one twenty four hour period on Mount Everest and fifteen died over the course of 32 00:02:45,86 --> 00:02:51,81 that summer's climbing season this was an extraordinary record breaking death toll 33 00:02:51,82 --> 00:02:56,61 and all the more extraordinary for the fact that. By one thousand nine hundred six 34 00:02:56,62 --> 00:02:57,99 climbing Everest was essentially 35 00:02:57,100 --> 00:03:01,28 a known quantity today if you have the money and you're willing to put in the 36 00:03:01,29 --> 00:03:07,70 training you can pay people to take you to the summit regardless of. Your 37 00:03:07,71 --> 00:03:12,30 specific level of expertise and yet still as recently as one thousand nine hundred 38 00:03:12,31 --> 00:03:17,54 six there was there was this appalling toll what's strange is that nobody's ever 39 00:03:17,58 --> 00:03:23,55 really been able to explain since then. What happened. There was no 40 00:03:24,14 --> 00:03:26,36 extremely unusual weather there were 41 00:03:26,37 --> 00:03:30,21 a few problems things like guide ropes that hadn't been put in the right places but 42 00:03:30,39 --> 00:03:35,10 nothing that really accounts for what unfolded and Jon Krakauer has some 43 00:03:35,11 --> 00:03:39,75 interesting insights in his book about the way the personalities of some of the 44 00:03:39,76 --> 00:03:44,33 climbers could have contributed to what happened but even that doesn't get you to 45 00:03:44,37 --> 00:03:47,61 an explanation just briefly if you don't know what happened is that there was 46 00:03:47,62 --> 00:03:48,83 essentially a traffic jam at 47 00:03:48,84 --> 00:03:52,25 a place called the Hillary Step A couple of hundred feet below the summit of 48 00:03:52,26 --> 00:03:56,14 Everest all these climbers became bottlenecks and bunched together so it 49 00:03:56,15 --> 00:04:01,52 interrupted their smooth progress to the top and back down again and instead of 50 00:04:01,53 --> 00:04:05,54 following the protocol which says that if you're delayed by certain amount you have 51 00:04:05,55 --> 00:04:10,52 to turn back and abandon the attempt these very experienced climbers pushed on and 52 00:04:10,53 --> 00:04:14,62 on despite the delay the Coast Guard said they should have turned back if they 53 00:04:14,63 --> 00:04:20,11 hadn't if they couldn't reach the summit by I think it's two pm is the latest of 54 00:04:20,12 --> 00:04:24,55 the times they were working too and yet many of them ended up reaching the summit 55 00:04:24,56 --> 00:04:27,94 much later than that which meant that they defended the mountain in darkness and 56 00:04:27,95 --> 00:04:33,81 the worst of Everest weather and that's when. Tragedy struck and still nobody 57 00:04:34,14 --> 00:04:40,58 really knows why it happened. But want to find out if there was somebody 58 00:04:40,99 --> 00:04:44,62 else in the area that day not on the mountain but in the foothills who I think at 59 00:04:44,63 --> 00:04:49,90 first glance is the least likely person to have anything remotely useful to 60 00:04:49,91 --> 00:04:54,48 contribute to understanding. An incident like this he was 61 00:04:54,49 --> 00:04:59,55 a burned out stockbroker from Indiana called Christopher cave and he was on 62 00:04:59,56 --> 00:05:05,29 a hiking holiday because he just wanted to recharge his batteries. But he was very 63 00:05:05,30 --> 00:05:09,90 well with well this was happening really quite close by and the moment he 64 00:05:09,91 --> 00:05:13,44 discovered about this tragedy he came across people who had been involved in the 65 00:05:13,45 --> 00:05:19,43 rescue mission and spoke to them it really haunted him and nor to him and he told 66 00:05:19,44 --> 00:05:24,52 me that it was basically as if it had happened to members' own family the degree to 67 00:05:24,53 --> 00:05:29,97 which it weighed on his mind he ended up dedicating years of his professional life 68 00:05:29,98 --> 00:05:35,17 in his in his next career to to understanding what could have gone wrong that day 69 00:05:35,30 --> 00:05:40,07 and what really haunted him about it was that it reminded him of 70 00:05:40,11 --> 00:05:46,45 a phenomenon that he'd observed many many times. In the corporate world that he had 71 00:05:46,46 --> 00:05:50,30 become so sick of what would happen is that a corporate leader or 72 00:05:50,31 --> 00:05:55,55 a chief executive would announce some big ambitious goal for that for the company 73 00:05:56,24 --> 00:06:03,04 he or she would commit to it very publicly. Try to get all the employees to 74 00:06:03,05 --> 00:06:07,50 commit to it motivate everybody to be completely focused on this on this big vision 75 00:06:07,82 --> 00:06:12,20 and then slowly evidence would start to creep in that maybe it hadn't been 76 00:06:12,55 --> 00:06:16,64 a wise goal maybe it was going to cause problems elsewhere in the in the company 77 00:06:16,65 --> 00:06:20,02 maybe it was going to even cause the company to collapse and of course that would 78 00:06:20,03 --> 00:06:24,74 make everybody feel very nervous and anxious and uncertain and worried but here's 79 00:06:24,76 --> 00:06:30,42 where it gets interesting because they couldn't stand those feelings because they 80 00:06:30,43 --> 00:06:36,85 were so allergic to the feelings of uncertainty and anxiety and insecurity that 81 00:06:36,93 --> 00:06:41,71 what they ended up doing was actually committing harder to the goal to try to make 82 00:06:41,72 --> 00:06:48,71 those feelings go away and that is when things would go would go wrong so 83 00:06:48,72 --> 00:06:53,34 Chris Kay's now is an expert on the organizational behavior at George Washington 84 00:06:53,38 --> 00:06:57,97 University and I think he probably does understand how annoying it is when he when 85 00:06:57,98 --> 00:07:01,73 he talks about this and writes about this for mountaineers to hear him say you know 86 00:07:01,74 --> 00:07:01,91 here's 87 00:07:01,92 --> 00:07:06,47 a lesson from the world of business that you can use to help you climb mountains. 88 00:07:07,58 --> 00:07:09,81 But the interesting thing is it turns out there actually is quite 89 00:07:09,82 --> 00:07:13,90 a lot of evidence that the same psychological pattern happens among mountaineers 90 00:07:15,13 --> 00:07:17,72 that he asked the study from one to sixty three in which 91 00:07:17,73 --> 00:07:19,90 a team of American psychologists had followed 92 00:07:19,91 --> 00:07:24,18 a team of American climbers who were attempting to summit Everest they were 93 00:07:24,19 --> 00:07:28,80 actually very dedicated psychologist to went as far as base camp with with the 94 00:07:28,81 --> 00:07:34,82 climbers they had them keep very detailed diaries of their planning their motions 95 00:07:34,83 --> 00:07:41,66 everything and then. And analyzed them later and. A subgroup of these climbers 96 00:07:41,68 --> 00:07:42,75 decided to try 97 00:07:42,77 --> 00:07:48,19 a very dangerous route to ascend Everest Riba haven't successfully been achieved 98 00:07:48,20 --> 00:07:52,98 before and when their diaries run live later this same pattern could be happening. 99 00:07:54,34 --> 00:07:57,40 They get some problematic information about the route that they were planning to 100 00:07:57,41 --> 00:08:01,11 take maybe something to do with weather patterns or the inadequacy of their 101 00:08:01,13 --> 00:08:04,95 equipment that would make them feel uncertain and anxious but then to raise those 102 00:08:04,96 --> 00:08:10,91 feelings of uncertainty and anxiety. They would commit even harder to that plan 103 00:08:12,83 --> 00:08:15,22 what comes out of these it happened is that they've made the go into 104 00:08:15,23 --> 00:08:21,05 a part of the identities it wasn't just that they wanted to succeed at this project 105 00:08:21,06 --> 00:08:22,01 anymore it was 106 00:08:22,05 --> 00:08:26,01 a part of who they were and they couldn't tolerate the idea that who they were was 107 00:08:26,02 --> 00:08:31,34 so infected with uncertainty and insecurity so it's not about how they took that 108 00:08:31,38 --> 00:08:34,39 incoming negative information and sort of alchemize that into 109 00:08:34,40 --> 00:08:40,90 a reason to do the opposite then you might think to try harder to achieve that goal 110 00:08:41,69 --> 00:08:45,82 one of the American mountaineers who watched the bottleneck in ninety six through 111 00:08:45,83 --> 00:08:50,84 telescope from lower down the mountain describes this effect that the summit exerts 112 00:08:50,85 --> 00:08:56,25 has almost literally I mean magnetic He says it draws people on they no longer 113 00:08:56,26 --> 00:09:00,77 think rationally they they become consumed with the goal and as he says on 114 00:09:00,78 --> 00:09:02,95 a good day you'll get away with it and on 115 00:09:02,96 --> 00:09:09,74 a bad day you'll die. Now their claim is that nine hundred sixty three did get away 116 00:09:09,75 --> 00:09:16,70 with it and that that route was successfully followed and I 117 00:09:16,71 --> 00:09:19,43 think Chris Kay's would admit that we can't ever know for certain that that is 118 00:09:19,44 --> 00:09:23,23 exactly the dynamic that explained what happened in one thousand nine hundred six 119 00:09:24,35 --> 00:09:27,50 but what I want to try to draw out of this is that I think it's 120 00:09:27,51 --> 00:09:30,64 a principle that goes a long way towards explaining on 121 00:09:30,65 --> 00:09:34,78 a psychological level what goes wrong with all sorts of our efforts to become happy 122 00:09:34,79 --> 00:09:38,72 or successful whatever that definition is why have you defined that whether it's 123 00:09:38,73 --> 00:09:42,55 climbing mountains or making lots of money or building 124 00:09:42,56 --> 00:09:48,73 a happy family or just feeling good with so allergic to feeling uncertainty or 125 00:09:48,74 --> 00:09:55,31 negativity and security failure. That we focus about doing everything we can to 126 00:09:55,32 --> 00:10:01,48 stop those feelings out and then that becomes self sabotaging and ends up achieving 127 00:10:01,56 --> 00:10:05,71 the opposite of the fact that we wanted and leading to the very fate that we were 128 00:10:05,72 --> 00:10:10,22 struggling to avoid So when I tried to do in this book primarily was to explore the 129 00:10:10,23 --> 00:10:14,90 opposite of that this idea that I label the negative path to happiness. 130 00:10:17,31 --> 00:10:18,20 I was struck to meet 131 00:10:18,21 --> 00:10:20,85 a very British idea but then I come to Seattle and everyone says it's 132 00:10:20,86 --> 00:10:24,47 a very very Seattle idea in 133 00:10:24,51 --> 00:10:30,55 a short time I'm going to California though so then we will test it out. On some 134 00:10:30,56 --> 00:10:33,34 real positive people anyway this is 135 00:10:33,35 --> 00:10:37,27 a family of ideas that goes back to ancient philosophical and spiritual traditions 136 00:10:37,28 --> 00:10:43,45 but is also very much being supported by it by modern experimental psychological 137 00:10:43,46 --> 00:10:46,98 research according to which we actually need to think about turning towards 138 00:10:47,02 --> 00:10:52,06 uncertainty and insecurity and other forms of negativity even harnessing pessimism 139 00:10:52,10 --> 00:10:57,68 and more generally the power of negative thinking instead of trying to stamp it out 140 00:10:57,72 --> 00:11:04,70 at all costs. So this extrude end of positive thinking culture that 141 00:11:04,71 --> 00:11:10,01 I began by by talking about which is endemic I think in America and to some extent 142 00:11:10,02 --> 00:11:15,62 British corporate culture. A Barbara Ehrenreich in her excellent book Bright sided 143 00:11:15,63 --> 00:11:17,43 makes a fairly strong case that it played 144 00:11:17,44 --> 00:11:24,39 a significant role in the financial crisis I mean I still 145 00:11:24,43 --> 00:11:28,18 think that most people can see that there's something not quite right about 146 00:11:28,19 --> 00:11:32,75 a lot of the ideas of what is of this culture for example there's been some really 147 00:11:32,76 --> 00:11:36,54 interesting research recently into self-help affirmations you know those peppy 148 00:11:36,55 --> 00:11:41,14 phrases that you're supposed to say to yourself in the mirror. I'm good enough I'm 149 00:11:41,15 --> 00:11:46,86 smart enough and gosh darn it people like me. But they make that actually you have 150 00:11:46,87 --> 00:11:53,29 studied this now and. You know experimental controls and it turns out the people 151 00:11:53,30 --> 00:11:57,59 who already have low self-esteem who are asked to repeat to themselves the phrase I 152 00:11:57,60 --> 00:11:57,72 am 153 00:11:57,73 --> 00:12:05,15 a lovable person and not feeling well. Because it provokes counter-arguments 154 00:12:05,19 --> 00:12:09,77 you know you tell yourself. You tell yourself I'm 155 00:12:09,78 --> 00:12:14,49 a regular person and. You just can suddenly think of all the reasons that you're 156 00:12:14,50 --> 00:12:20,97 not. Another aspect of this culture is visualising your goals visualizing success 157 00:12:20,98 --> 00:12:27,30 and seeing the Glee picturing everything working out. And we learn that there are 158 00:12:27,31 --> 00:12:32,51 some problems with that as well contrary to my least favorite self-help book The 159 00:12:32,52 --> 00:12:35,32 Secret by the way I saw 160 00:12:35,33 --> 00:12:40,10 a car as if you probably know you probably know the secret but the thesis of that 161 00:12:40,11 --> 00:12:42,39 book. Is that there's 162 00:12:42,40 --> 00:12:49,02 a is that there's an ancient piece of wisdom that is the key to. Happiness and 163 00:12:49,03 --> 00:12:55,72 Success that was passed down kept secret and passed down from. Our stock hole to 164 00:12:55,73 --> 00:13:01,55 Jesus to. Leonardo da Vinci to Einstein. 165 00:13:03,33 --> 00:13:04,03 To a T.V. 166 00:13:04,04 --> 00:13:10,42 Producer from Australia who then wrote the book. I don't know about you but I don't 167 00:13:10,43 --> 00:13:17,33 think that happened. Anyway And there's a fascinating experiment at N.Y.U. 168 00:13:17,82 --> 00:13:24,58 Not long ago. Participants were rendered mildly dehydrated and and 169 00:13:24,59 --> 00:13:29,70 then one group was asked to visualise drinking and I see refreshing glass of water 170 00:13:30,93 --> 00:13:34,18 the other groups were asked to do things you know as different things as controls 171 00:13:34,95 --> 00:13:37,49 and then or G. Levels were measured with blood pressure being used as 172 00:13:37,50 --> 00:13:40,74 a proxy for that and it turns out what you want to visualize has experienced 173 00:13:40,75 --> 00:13:46,56 a great a reduction in their levels of energy. Which is 174 00:13:46,57 --> 00:13:50,34 a way of seems to be that they're actually becoming less motivated to achieve their 175 00:13:50,35 --> 00:13:54,64 goal having convinced themselves perhaps on some subconscious level that they that 176 00:13:54,65 --> 00:13:59,81 they've already achieved it sometimes when I bring up this kind of anti gall stuff 177 00:13:59,82 --> 00:14:04,84 people mention. The Yale study of gold which if you've ever read any of these books 178 00:14:04,86 --> 00:14:09,95 on the importance of goal setting and and in achievement you'll. You'll probably 179 00:14:09,96 --> 00:14:11,95 have heard of because it's everywhere in it and it's 180 00:14:11,96 --> 00:14:16,98 a study that found in one hundred fifty three researchers after graduating class of 181 00:14:16,99 --> 00:14:21,63 you know university which of them had specific written down goals for the rest of 182 00:14:21,64 --> 00:14:26,17 their lives and only three percent of them said they have twenty years later the 183 00:14:26,64 --> 00:14:31,84 research has tracked them down and found that that three percent accumulated more 184 00:14:31,85 --> 00:14:37,30 financial wealth than the other ninety seven percent combined It's an incredible 185 00:14:37,31 --> 00:14:41,61 argument for the importance of goal setting and it is I'm not getting it in scores 186 00:14:41,62 --> 00:14:44,26 of books it turns out there's 187 00:14:44,27 --> 00:14:49,67 a methodological floor with his study. Which is that it's completely made up. 188 00:14:54,55 --> 00:14:58,93 Just doesn't exist and if you ring up after this to your university like I did and 189 00:14:58,94 --> 00:15:01,65 get them to sort of search the archives they said well first of all they side 190 00:15:01,66 --> 00:15:05,65 because they get off about all the time. And then they say anyway they're going to 191 00:15:05,66 --> 00:15:10,68 check again and and they and they find nothing but I still think that this kind of 192 00:15:10,69 --> 00:15:13,93 stuff acclamations visualization they are an easy target it's 193 00:15:13,94 --> 00:15:18,16 a fun target but it's an easy target and I what I really want to suggest is that to 194 00:15:18,17 --> 00:15:22,38 some extent we were caught in this this trap that one of the philosophers I write 195 00:15:22,39 --> 00:15:29,09 about calls the cult of optimism that maybe in that in such extreme and ridiculous 196 00:15:29,10 --> 00:15:34,69 ways but on some level we all fall victim to this idea that happiness excess means 197 00:15:34,97 --> 00:15:39,15 stamping out the negative asserting positive emotions at all cost persuading 198 00:15:39,16 --> 00:15:44,72 ourselves that everything must and is going to work out for the best the 199 00:15:44,73 --> 00:15:49,84 alternative perspective on or less this is negative seems to me very neatly summed 200 00:15:49,85 --> 00:15:50,02 up in 201 00:15:50,03 --> 00:15:54,74 a quote that is often attributed to Edith Morton and that is if only we'd stop trying 202 00:15:54,75 --> 00:15:56,00 so hard to be happy we could have 203 00:15:56,01 --> 00:16:01,88 a pretty good time and I'm glad I discovered two weeks the firm I got went to the 204 00:16:01,89 --> 00:16:07,66 printers but she didn't actually say that. I don't know who did lots of people on 205 00:16:07,67 --> 00:16:12,98 the internet think she did but it's I think it's. A very valid insight anyway so in 206 00:16:12,99 --> 00:16:15,44 the rest of what I've got to say I'll just maybe sketch out 207 00:16:15,45 --> 00:16:19,92 a few of the stopping points that I that I made on this the so-called negative path 208 00:16:19,93 --> 00:16:23,85 this idea that there's an alternative to the cult of optimism that might actually 209 00:16:23,86 --> 00:16:29,89 prove more fruitful. Because it turns out that this focus on positive thinking that 210 00:16:29,90 --> 00:16:34,72 seems so imbedded in self-help culture and corporate culture is 211 00:16:34,73 --> 00:16:38,62 a very young historical phenomenon goes back a century and 212 00:16:38,63 --> 00:16:43,01 a bit really last year was the sixtieth anniversary of the first publication of The 213 00:16:43,02 --> 00:16:47,94 Power of Positive Thinking which didn't begin everything but was what was there in 214 00:16:47,95 --> 00:16:53,73 the early days if you go further back in almost any historical spiritual 215 00:16:54,23 --> 00:16:59,50 philosophical traditions you find that it isn't really about that. At all 216 00:17:02,61 --> 00:17:03,86 so I discovered for example that there's 217 00:17:03,87 --> 00:17:08,67 a whole underground community of modern day Stoics not in the sense that we use 218 00:17:08,68 --> 00:17:15,16 that word in Britain today which means repressing your emotions and. Refusing to 219 00:17:15,17 --> 00:17:21,06 admit to them but rather drawing on the ancient Stoics of Greece and Rome people 220 00:17:21,07 --> 00:17:22,65 like epic teachers and Seneca you have 221 00:17:22,66 --> 00:17:25,37 a much more accommodating approach towards negative emotions it's 222 00:17:25,38 --> 00:17:29,67 a huge philosophy with many many layers but but one of the most interesting 223 00:17:30,13 --> 00:17:34,10 techniques is what they called the premeditation of evils you could think of it as 224 00:17:34,11 --> 00:17:38,35 negative visualization instead of focusing on the best case scenario they say 225 00:17:38,36 --> 00:17:42,61 sometimes it's best to focus on the worst case scenario and in modern psychology 226 00:17:42,62 --> 00:17:49,34 this is labelled defensive pessimism so we usually respond to anxiety or worry with 227 00:17:49,35 --> 00:17:53,62 reassurance whether it's ourselves or somebody else you know you try to bolster the 228 00:17:53,63 --> 00:17:57,11 belief that everything's going to turn out OK but there's 229 00:17:57,12 --> 00:18:03,77 a. Double edged sword because in doing so you also implicitly reinforce the 230 00:18:03,78 --> 00:18:08,66 implication that it would be absolutely catastrophic if things didn't turn out OK 231 00:18:10,11 --> 00:18:12,49 And so the stakes I will do the opposite think through in 232 00:18:12,50 --> 00:18:16,96 a calm and sober way how badly things could could really go so what happens first 233 00:18:16,97 --> 00:18:20,42 of all as you usually conclude that they could go 234 00:18:20,43 --> 00:18:27,20 a lot less badly than your anxiety had been. Suggesting that our that Alice 235 00:18:27,80 --> 00:18:30,71 psychologist who is heavily influenced by the Starks who died 236 00:18:30,72 --> 00:18:35,32 a few years ago that I interviewed for this book used to say that the worst thing 237 00:18:35,33 --> 00:18:41,39 about any event in the future is usually your exaggerated belief in its horror and 238 00:18:41,40 --> 00:18:46,59 so if you practice the premeditation of the evils that worry becomes finite maybe 239 00:18:46,60 --> 00:18:49,69 so there's a good reason to be very worried but it's still 240 00:18:49,70 --> 00:18:54,02 a finite worry instead of an infinite worry and at the same time as CYNICUS has it 241 00:18:54,03 --> 00:18:56,96 have another advantage which it will make which is that it will make you appreciate 242 00:18:57,07 --> 00:19:01,06 what you what you have is we hear all the time these days about the importance of 243 00:19:01,07 --> 00:19:02,64 gratitude and happiness and this is 244 00:19:02,65 --> 00:19:09,28 a finding that is being backed up all the time. In the research setting but it's 245 00:19:09,29 --> 00:19:15,09 kind of hard to do I find anyway might just be my problem but I sent to point out 246 00:19:15,10 --> 00:19:15,47 that actually 247 00:19:15,48 --> 00:19:21,31 a really good straightforward route towards feeling gratitude is to imagine that 248 00:19:21,32 --> 00:19:26,25 everything you enjoy today your relationships your possessions you may one day lose 249 00:19:27,27 --> 00:19:32,83 I mean and ultimately in the sense of what you will or will lose he says you should 250 00:19:32,84 --> 00:19:36,52 look at your closest relationships not as one of those things that cannot be taken 251 00:19:36,53 --> 00:19:38,69 away but as though it were a jar or 252 00:19:38,70 --> 00:19:44,87 a crystal goblet meaning fragile and charitable and you can even take this to the 253 00:19:44,88 --> 00:19:48,71 next level and deliberately bring about the worst case scenario in certain contexts 254 00:19:48,72 --> 00:19:52,97 to prove to yourself that you could cope are ballasts used to say that if you're 255 00:19:52,98 --> 00:19:56,76 really scared of embarrassing yourself and as 256 00:19:56,77 --> 00:20:02,08 a British person I'm genetically. Really scared of embarrassing myself you should 257 00:20:02,09 --> 00:20:06,02 try balancing yourself deliberately and he he recommended these things we call 258 00:20:06,03 --> 00:20:10,97 shame attacking exercises and he gave me the. He gave me this prescription 259 00:20:11,01 --> 00:20:16,26 basically but I'm travelling on the London Underground. And he suggested the New 260 00:20:16,27 --> 00:20:21,21 York subway I did it on the London tube and literally just speaking out loud the 261 00:20:21,22 --> 00:20:24,57 name of each station. As you approached. 262 00:20:29,27 --> 00:20:35,30 They see me strange how awful if if they think about it because. When you sort of 263 00:20:35,46 --> 00:20:39,77 contemplated in detail you think well I'm not going to be holding 264 00:20:39,78 --> 00:20:43,70 a piece or anybody I'm not going to be inconveniencing anybody you could argue I'm 265 00:20:43,71 --> 00:20:44,68 helping them in 266 00:20:44,69 --> 00:20:49,31 a sense I mean and yet the prospect of doing it is absolutely to someone like me 267 00:20:49,32 --> 00:20:52,50 anyway and turned to many people I think agonizing. 268 00:20:56,92 --> 00:21:00,65 And I did it and it was pretty horrible. 269 00:21:04,00 --> 00:21:06,80 But this is important think it's 270 00:21:06,81 --> 00:21:10,29 a finite kind of horrible You don't get arrested or attacked you know the 271 00:21:10,30 --> 00:21:15,65 consequences do not begin to justify the level of excruciating emotion that 272 00:21:15,66 --> 00:21:18,66 accompanied thinking about it in advance what happens is 273 00:21:18,67 --> 00:21:22,55 a couple of people you know look up from their newspapers and then go back to the 274 00:21:22,56 --> 00:21:26,53 newspapers because I remember well well proven finding 275 00:21:26,54 --> 00:21:32,69 a social psychology most people most of the time thinking about themselves and the 276 00:21:32,69 --> 00:21:36,03 result of doing this is that your embarrassment is cut your fear of embarrassment 277 00:21:36,05 --> 00:21:41,07 is cut down to size your your beliefs become infused with this dose of reality the 278 00:21:41,09 --> 00:21:46,26 anxiety disperses and briefly sort of feel great actually I felt. For 279 00:21:46,27 --> 00:21:53,17 a short time after that I felt as good as I've ever felt. I 280 00:21:53,18 --> 00:21:53,86 would make 281 00:21:53,87 --> 00:22:00,76 a habit of doing it. I might try to Seattle. The Buddhist tradition 282 00:22:00,77 --> 00:22:07,52 as well I think offers many. Obvious insights on that obviously relevant I mean to 283 00:22:07,53 --> 00:22:13,39 the to the negative half to happiness mindfulness meditation of course is all the 284 00:22:13,40 --> 00:22:16,58 rage these days and so while I was researching this book I went on 285 00:22:16,59 --> 00:22:21,14 a week long silent meditation retreat at the Insight Meditation Society in 286 00:22:21,55 --> 00:22:26,74 Massachusetts where I got up at five thirty every day with forty other people spent 287 00:22:26,95 --> 00:22:33,64 about nine hours a day. Watching my breath. And at first this is 288 00:22:33,65 --> 00:22:39,31 a total nightmare to do as some of you may have experienced. Because you realize 289 00:22:39,32 --> 00:22:44,01 that when you try to make your mind really really calm and quiet all you see is how 290 00:22:44,02 --> 00:22:49,14 incredibly noisy it is that for almost the first few days of this retreat I had the 291 00:22:49,15 --> 00:22:56,06 lyrics to. The song Barbie Girl by Aqua. You know 292 00:22:56,07 --> 00:23:01,65 from one nine hundred seventy Danish Norwegian both I think. Sort of disco pop 293 00:23:01,66 --> 00:23:06,05 absolutely terrible song which I never liked you know it wasn't I wasn't I wasn't 294 00:23:06,06 --> 00:23:08,97 singing to myself but it just jammed into my brain in 295 00:23:08,98 --> 00:23:15,13 a way that wouldn't wouldn't leave. But then eventually something happens and those 296 00:23:15,17 --> 00:23:18,65 sort of sense of opening and what you realize is that actually it isn't about 297 00:23:18,66 --> 00:23:23,41 trying to make your mind as calm and as tranquil as you possibly can what it about 298 00:23:23,42 --> 00:23:28,89 is is what I think Buddhist writers would would call non-attachment 299 00:23:30,59 --> 00:23:34,02 the popular metaphor here is to learn to see your thoughts like weather patterns 300 00:23:34,10 --> 00:23:39,85 rising and passing away it's not that you try to push away the bad stuff but that 301 00:23:39,86 --> 00:23:45,02 you let whatever comes positive or negative just sort of be until it goes away 302 00:23:45,03 --> 00:23:52,01 again. American British writer and teacher called Charlotte back who 303 00:23:52,05 --> 00:23:55,41 put it beautifully I think when she said that the point of meditation practice is 304 00:23:55,42 --> 00:24:01,66 not to change the contents of the container that is the mind but to become 305 00:24:01,67 --> 00:24:08,56 a bigger container which is not the same as saying by the way that I feel that it's 306 00:24:08,57 --> 00:24:11,28 a start of passive a teacher to wards life I think it's just 307 00:24:11,29 --> 00:24:17,15 a question of not. Not fixating on manipulating the emotional content that goes 308 00:24:17,16 --> 00:24:22,14 along with things in life I think it absolutely doesn't mean resigning yourself to 309 00:24:22,15 --> 00:24:27,14 the kinds of circumstances that in fact you should change. And then the third and 310 00:24:27,15 --> 00:24:32,03 final example of this negative parts that are all that are mentioned here is the 311 00:24:32,04 --> 00:24:37,97 largely forgotten tradition of memento mori the idea of building in constant 312 00:24:37,98 --> 00:24:43,64 reminders of mortality into daily life I think it's pretty obvious that death is 313 00:24:43,65 --> 00:24:44,92 the ultimate example of 314 00:24:44,93 --> 00:24:51,19 a negative thing that we try to ignore and not think about only to find ourselves 315 00:24:51,20 --> 00:24:56,53 completely unprepared when when we're forced to think about it the psychologist on 316 00:24:56,54 --> 00:25:01,40 us back or in his famous book from the seventy's or denial of death that actually 317 00:25:01,41 --> 00:25:07,62 trying not to think about death accounts for almost all significant human activity 318 00:25:07,62 --> 00:25:12,59 . I spent 319 00:25:12,60 --> 00:25:16,90 a little Raul reporting this book and in Mexico during the day of the dead 320 00:25:17,09 --> 00:25:22,19 celebrations it's fairly well known and I want to avoid making sort of sweeping 321 00:25:22,20 --> 00:25:27,33 cultural generalizations but it is really quite extraordinary to be that then for 322 00:25:27,34 --> 00:25:31,98 anyone who's more familiar with an American or British for Halloween which takes 323 00:25:31,99 --> 00:25:38,05 place at roughly the same time and has related roots. How in is basically 324 00:25:38,06 --> 00:25:42,62 a holiday dedicated to the celebration of candy as far as I can recount in this 325 00:25:42,63 --> 00:25:45,60 country. The bread Romney is 326 00:25:45,61 --> 00:25:52,25 a celebration of death and of the fact of mortality. In 327 00:25:52,26 --> 00:25:59,02 some offices in you know downtown Mexico City. People write. 328 00:26:00,04 --> 00:26:03,96 Poems to each other about how they expect they might die their colleagues I mean 329 00:26:03,97 --> 00:26:05,86 not themselves treating it in 330 00:26:05,87 --> 00:26:09,88 a very very sort of jovial way and in the rural areas there's 331 00:26:09,89 --> 00:26:14,20 a tradition of all night vigils in cemeteries I spent a night in 332 00:26:14,21 --> 00:26:18,34 a cemetery where families were conducting this this vigil sitting at the graves of 333 00:26:18,35 --> 00:26:23,88 their relatives playing music talking drinking not not mourning but equally not. 334 00:26:25,58 --> 00:26:31,83 Joking about death but just sort of hanging out and letting death. Seep into 335 00:26:32,28 --> 00:26:35,93 life this as you probably know used to be 336 00:26:35,94 --> 00:26:39,35 a lot more common there are many old traditions in art and for example including 337 00:26:39,36 --> 00:26:45,38 the an image of the scroll of the. Patron of the artist pictured in 338 00:26:45,39 --> 00:26:46,11 a still life as 339 00:26:46,12 --> 00:26:51,78 a reminder that he too was going to die. Those are fascinating study 340 00:26:51,79 --> 00:26:56,61 a few years ago illustrating the power of this kind of remembering of death where. 341 00:26:58,71 --> 00:27:03,00 People are observed some people are observed taking a shortcut through 342 00:27:03,01 --> 00:27:04,90 a cemetery and other people observe walking down 343 00:27:04,91 --> 00:27:09,80 a sort of regular street some blocks away and they were both exposed by the 344 00:27:09,81 --> 00:27:11,77 experimenters to people speaking on 345 00:27:11,78 --> 00:27:15,87 a mobile phone about the importance of cell phone I say about the importance of 346 00:27:16,02 --> 00:27:21,22 helping people so that sort of made the idea of helping failure in their minds and 347 00:27:21,23 --> 00:27:26,67 then one of the researches dropped notes on the ground and the people working 348 00:27:26,68 --> 00:27:30,24 through the cemetery with that subliminal reminder of death were thirty percent 349 00:27:30,25 --> 00:27:36,29 more likely to help to pick up the drop notes so it seems that in the right context 350 00:27:36,38 --> 00:27:41,86 at any rate death awareness triggers compassion or perhaps an awareness of the way 351 00:27:41,87 --> 00:27:48,04 in which the one way in which we are truly all the same. And though it's 352 00:27:48,05 --> 00:27:51,82 a cliché Obviously there's also the fact that awareness of mortality it's 353 00:27:51,83 --> 00:27:52,27 a cliche for 354 00:27:52,28 --> 00:27:58,52 a reason I think tends to focus your life on the things that matter the most those 355 00:27:58,53 --> 00:28:05,34 that very famous. Quotation from Steve Jobs's graduation speech by Steve 356 00:28:05,35 --> 00:28:10,90 Jobs where he he says that there's nothing better to make you realize that you 357 00:28:10,91 --> 00:28:16,80 already make it if you have nothing to lose. Than remembering. The undeniable fact 358 00:28:16,84 --> 00:28:23,41 that you will die. So just to draw these threads together there 359 00:28:23,42 --> 00:28:28,44 disparate philosophies and disparate approaches but I think what they all share 360 00:28:28,48 --> 00:28:33,02 stoicism Buddhism Memento Mori and some of the other things I write about is this 361 00:28:33,03 --> 00:28:39,99 idea of turning towards negativity instead of the positive thinking focus on on 362 00:28:40,03 --> 00:28:46,09 on stamping negativity out at all costs probably where this goes I think and we can 363 00:28:46,10 --> 00:28:49,52 talk about this if people are interested it is beyond both negativity and 364 00:28:49,53 --> 00:28:50,38 positivity it's not 365 00:28:50,39 --> 00:28:53,56 a question of replacing positive thinking with negative thinking but of 366 00:28:53,80 --> 00:28:58,51 transcending both of these somehow and really reevaluating our idea of what that 367 00:28:58,52 --> 00:29:03,67 word happiness really means but I do think in closing that it's important to 368 00:29:03,68 --> 00:29:04,94 emphasize that this isn't just 369 00:29:04,95 --> 00:29:11,02 a sort of airy wishy washy spiritual position for people who want to sort of check 370 00:29:11,03 --> 00:29:14,60 out of day to day life I think it's it's 371 00:29:14,61 --> 00:29:21,34 a really intensely practical way to live and to achieve very worldly 372 00:29:21,83 --> 00:29:24,89 kinds of success there's 373 00:29:24,90 --> 00:29:30,03 a research called us who's done some fascinating studies about entrepreneurs based 374 00:29:30,04 --> 00:29:36,39 on very long in-depth interviews and she concludes that actually they 375 00:29:36,40 --> 00:29:40,53 naturally use some of these techniques without even really thinking about it and 376 00:29:40,54 --> 00:29:45,60 really don't use the the techniques of positive thinking and goal striving that 377 00:29:46,12 --> 00:29:50,02 that so much of the self-help literature would have you believe so for example they 378 00:29:50,03 --> 00:29:55,95 really do use the premeditation of evil in in her work it's called the principle of 379 00:29:55,96 --> 00:30:00,60 a thought about rocks. You don't try and convince yourself your project is going to 380 00:30:00,61 --> 00:30:06,60 work out you say what would be the cost if it didn't work out and if that is 381 00:30:06,61 --> 00:30:12,13 affordable. Then that's the only criterion that you need to meet you then should 382 00:30:12,29 --> 00:30:17,96 you should and should do whatever it is you're thinking about doing. Don't make by 383 00:30:17,97 --> 00:30:21,94 and large these vivid detailed plans of what they're going to have achieved in five 384 00:30:21,95 --> 00:30:27,80 years and then stubbornly fight until reality bends to their will they don't 385 00:30:27,81 --> 00:30:34,10 instead they turn to ruins uncertainty they don't learn how to move forward without 386 00:30:34,11 --> 00:30:38,76 knowing exactly where they're going to end up but to still make fruitful progress 387 00:30:39,22 --> 00:30:43,69 to move forward alongside those feelings of uncertainty constantly revising the end 388 00:30:43,73 --> 00:30:48,42 point and the really nice analogy that I liked is that there are less like girl 389 00:30:48,43 --> 00:30:50,30 made chefs who visualise 390 00:30:50,31 --> 00:30:53,74 a dish and then source the ingredients from all over the world but they're much 391 00:30:53,75 --> 00:30:56,16 more like any of us coming home after 392 00:30:56,17 --> 00:31:00,64 a day at work seeing what's in the refrigerator in the cupboard using the things at 393 00:31:00,65 --> 00:31:05,79 their disposal to see what they can build and being constantly ready to change the 394 00:31:05,80 --> 00:31:12,02 definition of what it is that they're trying to build it's somewhat similar. I 395 00:31:12,03 --> 00:31:13,10 discovered with writing 396 00:31:13,11 --> 00:31:17,18 a book because if you listen to the motivational coaches that will tell you that 397 00:31:17,23 --> 00:31:20,79 the crucial thing you have to do to beat procrastination which I certainly suffered 398 00:31:20,80 --> 00:31:27,51 from when I was writing this is to get motivated. To to bust through your feelings 399 00:31:27,52 --> 00:31:30,47 of procrastination to to work yourself up into 400 00:31:30,68 --> 00:31:36,75 a motivated state where all you want to do is work but when you look at this 401 00:31:36,76 --> 00:31:40,34 through the perspective of non-attachment in Buddhism and the premeditation of 402 00:31:40,35 --> 00:31:44,73 evils and stoicism and all the rest of it. You begin to see that actually this is 403 00:31:44,77 --> 00:31:48,26 this actually adds an extra hurdle because what this says is not only that you need 404 00:31:48,27 --> 00:31:52,65 to work on your project or write your book whatever it may be but you also need to 405 00:31:52,66 --> 00:31:59,47 feel the right way before you do it you need to get your emotions exactly right 406 00:31:59,51 --> 00:32:04,05 before you can add so it actually inserts an obstacle into the into the writing 407 00:32:04,06 --> 00:32:09,74 process. As it is the same idea as you know waiting for inspiration to strike or 408 00:32:09,75 --> 00:32:16,68 trying to make yourself feel inspired Instead you can just co-exist with those 409 00:32:16,70 --> 00:32:22,38 feelings of not wanting to the work of procrastination and reluctance and and act 410 00:32:22,39 --> 00:32:24,61 at the same time anyway it's 411 00:32:24,62 --> 00:32:28,32 a famous observation from the artist Chuck Close He says it's variation is for 412 00:32:28,32 --> 00:32:35,05 amateurs the rest of us just get to work I really love the writing I 413 00:32:35,38 --> 00:32:42,02 quoted all the time phrases great from those uninspired Japanese psychiatry and 414 00:32:42,04 --> 00:32:47,11 psychologist show memory to and he's made me go commit sort of anti positive 415 00:32:47,29 --> 00:32:54,15 thinker. And. It was advice for living which I just think is 416 00:32:54,16 --> 00:33:01,10 fantastic he says give up on yourself begin taking action now being neurotic or 417 00:33:01,11 --> 00:33:01,98 imperfect or 418 00:33:01,99 --> 00:33:06,41 a procrastinator other healthy well lazy or any other label by which you can 419 00:33:06,42 --> 00:33:11,82 accurately describe yourself go ahead and be the best imperfect person you can be 420 00:33:12,17 --> 00:33:17,60 and get started on those things you want to accomplish before you die I think 421 00:33:17,61 --> 00:33:17,78 that's 422 00:33:17,79 --> 00:33:23,37 a kind of great way to think about approaching life go to visit you know you can 423 00:33:23,42 --> 00:33:27,96 walk across hot coals in your bare feet and prove to yourself the power of positive 424 00:33:27,97 --> 00:33:30,92 thinking is completely up to you but that's all I've got to say so thank you very 425 00:33:30,93 --> 00:33:37,91 much for the. Hi Hi So I have two questions 426 00:33:38,62 --> 00:33:41,96 the first I'm talking about corporate culture and everything in that whole and I 427 00:33:41,97 --> 00:33:45,58 have seen that many times that you know you have to score and everybody gets behind 428 00:33:45,59 --> 00:33:47,90 it and then you know it's looking like it's going to be 429 00:33:47,91 --> 00:33:50,58 a train wreck and we all just sort of pretend that it's not going to be 430 00:33:50,59 --> 00:33:52,71 a train wreck but don't you think that has 431 00:33:52,72 --> 00:33:56,71 a lot to do is our competitive culture and people not wanting to fail they're 432 00:33:56,72 --> 00:34:00,35 winners and losers and people there are a winner and if I'm 433 00:34:00,36 --> 00:34:06,50 a winner I can't fail and that's part of that yeah absolutely absolutely I think 434 00:34:06,51 --> 00:34:07,96 it's a really good point I mean there's 435 00:34:07,97 --> 00:34:14,35 a I write about but didn't talk about the sort of failure aspect of this analogies 436 00:34:14,36 --> 00:34:20,90 to failure I went to. A place in Michigan which has become known as the Museum of 437 00:34:20,91 --> 00:34:27,85 failed products. It isn't they don't like that name. Possibly for obvious 438 00:34:27,86 --> 00:34:29,16 reasons but it's a it's just 439 00:34:29,17 --> 00:34:35,06 a collection of consumer goods that failed basically. And the reason it exists is 440 00:34:35,07 --> 00:34:37,23 a viable. It's 441 00:34:37,24 --> 00:34:42,03 a private library that product designers come to inspect and they pay for that 442 00:34:42,04 --> 00:34:45,87 privilege the reason it exists in the first place is because so many of these firms 443 00:34:45,88 --> 00:34:50,94 are actually terrible at keeping records of the things that went wrong or looking 444 00:34:50,95 --> 00:34:55,07 closely into the things that went wrong and learning from them so you know find 445 00:34:55,08 --> 00:34:57,53 that product manager put those failed products in 446 00:34:57,54 --> 00:35:04,17 a closet and move them to the next insistence on on success. And yet as those other 447 00:35:04,66 --> 00:35:09,37 writers in this area who I am forgetting who right now but who witnessed 448 00:35:09,83 --> 00:35:14,38 motivational coaches tell an entire room of of employees at the same firm that they 449 00:35:14,39 --> 00:35:21,18 can all be the number one salesman next year. So yeah I 450 00:35:21,19 --> 00:35:24,82 think I think you're absolutely right I think I think they'd these two things go 451 00:35:24,83 --> 00:35:29,99 together basically the idea of not of the allergy to failure and the sort of 452 00:35:30,00 --> 00:35:36,59 fixation on. Big over committing to goals sort of if you each other. 453 00:35:37,99 --> 00:35:44,41 OK so my second question. Is around gratitude and I really am 454 00:35:44,42 --> 00:35:50,40 a firm believer that. A strong sense of gratitude leads to happiness and do you 455 00:35:50,41 --> 00:35:54,45 think that that kind of ties in I mean if you're if you have like all these great 456 00:35:54,49 --> 00:35:59,36 goals and you know totally positive it's hard to feel grateful because you know all 457 00:35:59,37 --> 00:36:02,01 these goals and you're here and all these goals are appear and it's hard to feel 458 00:36:02,02 --> 00:36:07,13 grateful so I mean your philosophy to sort of embrace the negative look at what's 459 00:36:07,14 --> 00:36:11,17 the worst possible thing that could happen and if something better than that 460 00:36:11,18 --> 00:36:16,75 happens then you can feel grateful and and I really and I'm not sure I mean you 461 00:36:16,76 --> 00:36:17,00 talked 462 00:36:17,01 --> 00:36:23,94 a little bit about the idea of gratitude leading to happiness and and I wonder if 463 00:36:23,95 --> 00:36:27,92 you could address how you think that sort of ties into your philosophy of negative 464 00:36:27,93 --> 00:36:32,66 thinking where the whole the whole thing as I understand it in terms of whether 465 00:36:33,50 --> 00:36:39,00 psychological research is that is that gratitude. Quite apart from whether it's an 466 00:36:39,01 --> 00:36:45,52 ethical value that it is good for those reasons it works because it 467 00:36:45,79 --> 00:36:49,91 counteracts don't it treadmill you know the way that anything we get in our lives 468 00:36:49,99 --> 00:36:56,04 becomes. Part of the backdrop of our lives too quickly so you know anything from 469 00:36:56,05 --> 00:36:56,26 just 470 00:36:56,27 --> 00:37:03,51 a i Pad to. A new relationship you know the full gamut 471 00:37:03,78 --> 00:37:10,73 if not the steps delivering the same degree of. Of happiness. Because 472 00:37:10,74 --> 00:37:15,18 it because we're so good climatized to those things and Gratitude is 473 00:37:15,19 --> 00:37:21,96 a way of sort of noticing. Those things that you'd otherwise be climatized to 474 00:37:22,69 --> 00:37:27,91 be I write this column in The Guardian which you know in many ways takes 475 00:37:27,92 --> 00:37:33,92 a sort of very skeptical look at self-help books and culture but I sort of was 476 00:37:33,93 --> 00:37:35,80 forced to concede that the idea of keeping 477 00:37:35,81 --> 00:37:40,04 a gratitude journal which seems so you know is did really seem very sort of calming 478 00:37:40,05 --> 00:37:43,33 to me and not something that I would probably admit to my friends but you know I. 479 00:37:45,21 --> 00:37:49,33 Whether you from personal experience now but from you know if you want peer 480 00:37:49,34 --> 00:37:53,88 reviewed studies there purview studies that works because you are calling bring 481 00:37:53,89 --> 00:37:59,24 into focus I think that otherwise fall into the background so that's completely I 482 00:37:59,25 --> 00:38:05,76 completely think that it is critical I think start out by asking yourself imagining 483 00:38:05,77 --> 00:38:10,68 the fact that you could lose things you have is one is one way towards that. You 484 00:38:10,69 --> 00:38:13,21 know that the different approach is suitable for different people at different 485 00:38:13,22 --> 00:38:16,21 times but I think that you know that is quite 486 00:38:16,22 --> 00:38:20,83 a powerful way of doing it because then you really do start to feel grateful 487 00:38:21,60 --> 00:38:28,20 whether or not you've reached any specific sort of predetermined goal he's up. You 488 00:38:28,21 --> 00:38:32,54 can thank you very much. Let's set 489 00:38:32,55 --> 00:38:36,78 a question but when you get your subway exercise I was wondering you said you had 490 00:38:36,79 --> 00:38:40,38 residual positive effects for a short while where I thought was a few hours or 491 00:38:40,39 --> 00:38:41,12 a few days or 492 00:38:41,13 --> 00:38:47,71 a few weeks. I think I think there are probably emotional and cognitive levels that 493 00:38:47,75 --> 00:38:52,96 sort of so I'm the sort of I didn't feel sorry up for more than an hour or so you 494 00:38:52,97 --> 00:38:59,61 know that was very short term. But I think it did change something in 495 00:38:59,61 --> 00:39:06,50 a modest way. Cognitively you know I I certainly use that 496 00:39:06,89 --> 00:39:11,65 what's the worst that could happen question with all the time life of daily life. 497 00:39:15,05 --> 00:39:19,07 Increasingly I enjoy speaking to people but it's still you know on some level 498 00:39:19,08 --> 00:39:19,17 you're 499 00:39:19,18 --> 00:39:21,81 a bit nervous about it so it's always good to remember well the worst thing is that 500 00:39:22,01 --> 00:39:25,43 a room full of people could like be reborn think I was an idiot that is not the 501 00:39:25,44 --> 00:39:26,46 same I have 502 00:39:26,50 --> 00:39:30,86 a nuclear war you know and it and it and it doesn't warrant the kind of exactly 503 00:39:30,87 --> 00:39:32,75 that would that would go along with the prospect of 504 00:39:32,76 --> 00:39:39,51 a nuclear war so that I think after the belong Hi Hi. 505 00:39:40,89 --> 00:39:45,07 I guess is I was listening to you I was having a problem where I was thinking 506 00:39:45,50 --> 00:39:49,87 a lot of times what you described as negative thinking I was thinking that's 507 00:39:49,88 --> 00:39:56,60 positive thinking all right and now given it and actually like that Mt Everest 508 00:39:56,61 --> 00:40:02,76 thing for you know. Then going up the hill when there was bad circumstances that 509 00:40:02,77 --> 00:40:08,40 wasn't positive thinking to me that was stupidity but the positive if they had 510 00:40:08,41 --> 00:40:13,89 turned back where I think in your mind that's negative to me it would be like OK 511 00:40:13,90 --> 00:40:17,96 we're going to turn back and make the best of this like we will do the smart thing 512 00:40:18,22 --> 00:40:18,73 but we put 513 00:40:18,74 --> 00:40:23,62 a positive spin on it Reich OK well now we have more time to visit or sit by the 514 00:40:23,63 --> 00:40:30,19 fire whatever and I I do or many examples you gave that way like your being on that 515 00:40:30,23 --> 00:40:36,92 like imagining the worst case scenario to me again that's positive you think if 516 00:40:36,93 --> 00:40:43,36 this is as bad as it can get and it's not that bad that's positive thinking to me 517 00:40:43,53 --> 00:40:47,03 so I just you know I think I think you're not wrong I think it's I think it's 518 00:40:47,04 --> 00:40:48,62 a partly 519 00:40:48,63 --> 00:40:54,43 a semantic distinction because the way I'm defining positive thinking I maybe 520 00:40:54,47 --> 00:40:58,04 should make it clearer but I think I'm finding positive thinking is as the sort of 521 00:40:58,05 --> 00:41:05,01 world effort to replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts I think the the 522 00:41:05,40 --> 00:41:09,29 techniques in the approaches that I write about appreciatively in this book I think 523 00:41:09,30 --> 00:41:15,57 are good ones you know they're still focused on that point of being happy and if 524 00:41:15,58 --> 00:41:20,66 they work then hopefully they make you happy so if positive thinking simply means 525 00:41:20,67 --> 00:41:25,05 being being happy then then I think it's very hard for anyone to be against it I 526 00:41:25,06 --> 00:41:31,67 think it's that I don't the world focus on trying to change. Emotional states and 527 00:41:31,68 --> 00:41:37,60 thoughts rather than. What you are calling positive thinking I'm just I would 528 00:41:37,61 --> 00:41:41,03 suggest that you sort of like why it's path to happiness and the fact that they get 529 00:41:41,04 --> 00:41:43,00 you to happiness is definitely positive in 530 00:41:43,01 --> 00:41:48,17 a sense so I really think we agree. Because I'm still thinking positive perspective 531 00:41:48,21 --> 00:41:53,26 yeah on the negative. And you're saying that's negative and I'm going to let you 532 00:41:53,27 --> 00:41:57,00 know where they were I mean that's so firstly I think it is mantic distinction but 533 00:41:57,01 --> 00:42:01,62 then secondly as I sort of touched on the very end it gets into this kind of very 534 00:42:01,63 --> 00:42:06,62 not just semantic but sort of extremely deep thing but my journey through the 535 00:42:06,63 --> 00:42:12,66 process of writing this book was was not to just become. Certain that I was right 536 00:42:12,67 --> 00:42:17,80 that positive thinking was bad or negative thinking was good but these are part 537 00:42:17,81 --> 00:42:18,08 this is 538 00:42:18,09 --> 00:42:22,06 a priority that they were out each other bad that somehow you know you only have 539 00:42:22,07 --> 00:42:26,99 the positive because of the negative and vice versa and that transcending that 540 00:42:26,100 --> 00:42:31,17 distinction is probably where one has to go next in terms of understanding on 541 00:42:31,18 --> 00:42:36,52 a philosophical level what what happiness is so on that level the fact that what 542 00:42:36,56 --> 00:42:40,81 you think of as positive I think is a negative vice versa or is actually 543 00:42:40,82 --> 00:42:45,96 a function the fact that you know these things define each other you can't have the 544 00:42:45,97 --> 00:42:51,65 peak of a way without the trough of a wave would think. Right there was just 545 00:42:51,66 --> 00:42:55,61 a natural progression that in which case in which case don't change that is not the 546 00:42:55,62 --> 00:42:59,23 message you took and not the message because not that if you're if you wake up 547 00:42:59,24 --> 00:43:04,45 feeling very happy every day you should stop feeling sad. Thank you thank you so 548 00:43:04,46 --> 00:43:11,38 much. Yeah I think this happiness movement 549 00:43:11,43 --> 00:43:15,71 is problematic I actually met the woman who wrote The Happiness Project and she's 550 00:43:15,72 --> 00:43:20,65 one of most miserable people ever in my opinion which is odd but I think her whole 551 00:43:20,66 --> 00:43:24,06 world has been defined by trying to become happy right and just 552 00:43:24,07 --> 00:43:28,14 a New York Times bestseller out of that doesn't mean her project has won it for her 553 00:43:28,15 --> 00:43:34,09 though so when I wake up in the morning I think am I supposed to be happy today am 554 00:43:34,10 --> 00:43:40,69 I looking for happiness today I don't look to be happy all day long but the society 555 00:43:40,70 --> 00:43:44,15 says it in so many different ways that that's what we're supposed to be what would 556 00:43:44,16 --> 00:43:45,28 you say is 557 00:43:45,29 --> 00:43:51,46 a healthy motional state for most of us throughout the course of those sixteen 558 00:43:51,47 --> 00:43:53,58 hours that we're awake. It's 559 00:43:53,59 --> 00:43:57,06 a very good question because actually when you look at like the Stoics For example 560 00:43:57,07 --> 00:44:03,71 you find that. The pinnacle of emotional states for them was 561 00:44:04,49 --> 00:44:09,86 tranquility that wasn't. There was an excitement which is what they try to 562 00:44:10,13 --> 00:44:16,35 incorporate get made or did they get motivated. And incidentally that's why 563 00:44:16,36 --> 00:44:20,45 motivational seminars that's the business model you know it works it makes you feel 564 00:44:20,46 --> 00:44:24,51 great for about three days and then it fades and you have to go back for some more 565 00:44:24,51 --> 00:44:29,43 . So I think I mean just in general I think you make 566 00:44:29,44 --> 00:44:35,96 a really good point that clarifying me the specific goal here is is kind of 567 00:44:35,97 --> 00:44:37,04 important there's 568 00:44:37,05 --> 00:44:44,07 a psychologist called Paul Pierce or. Who argued that. For 569 00:44:44,28 --> 00:44:50,01 eight of the is the. Is the emotion that we should be focusing on here besides sort 570 00:44:50,02 --> 00:44:54,62 of radical openness mixed with negative with negative and positive emotions mixed 571 00:44:54,63 --> 00:44:56,71 in mixed in together that's probably not 572 00:44:56,72 --> 00:44:59,46 a sort of every hour of the day emotion but 573 00:44:59,47 --> 00:45:05,85 a sort of peak peak experience. Emotion again we got to this problem of 574 00:45:07,24 --> 00:45:10,90 the difference between the descriptive way that you may feel and if someone feels 575 00:45:10,91 --> 00:45:15,43 excited every hour of the day I think that's totally fine I mean those people tend 576 00:45:15,44 --> 00:45:15,56 to be 577 00:45:15,57 --> 00:45:23,05 a bit annoying but. It's but it's totally fine versus whether 578 00:45:23,60 --> 00:45:28,21 you should advise yourself or other people to make the effort to become like that 579 00:45:28,41 --> 00:45:34,39 and I think it's that it's in that sort of. It's in trying to will those kinds of 580 00:45:34,40 --> 00:45:38,75 situations those kind of emotions as you as you rightly say I think that that all 581 00:45:38,76 --> 00:45:44,88 the problems arise we can all have different definitions of what feels best. 582 00:45:45,98 --> 00:45:49,03 But it's but but even if that definition is 583 00:45:49,07 --> 00:45:55,05 a good one trying to force it into being is is is unlikely to is likely to bring 584 00:45:55,06 --> 00:45:58,81 about. I didn't really answer the question but I'm not sure it can be answered. 585 00:46:03,84 --> 00:46:07,24 Hello sorry OK I was having 586 00:46:07,25 --> 00:46:11,92 a hard time formulating my question but do you write about or do you have any 587 00:46:11,93 --> 00:46:18,11 favorite research about different ways to acknowledge or reflect on changes or 588 00:46:18,12 --> 00:46:22,38 changing goals it seems like gratitude is probably an example of this but I think 589 00:46:22,39 --> 00:46:25,59 there's a difference between an entrepreneur who does 590 00:46:25,60 --> 00:46:30,12 a really good job of sort of changing their goals to meet what they have an C.E.O. 591 00:46:30,13 --> 00:46:33,49 Who sets a goal and then sticks to it no matter what and then maybe 592 00:46:33,50 --> 00:46:35,05 a third kind who sets 593 00:46:35,06 --> 00:46:38,64 a goal and then maybe changes it along the way but doesn't acknowledge that they 594 00:46:38,65 --> 00:46:42,53 were changing along the way and probably isn't getting the benefits of saying oh 595 00:46:42,54 --> 00:46:44,63 it's OK that we change or we're doing maybe we feel 596 00:46:44,64 --> 00:46:50,49 a little bit too you know anything or do you care about like. It's 597 00:46:50,50 --> 00:46:53,36 a great question the only thing that immediately makes me think of that I have 598 00:46:53,37 --> 00:46:59,75 written about and talked to people about is is is just writing things down you know 599 00:47:00,44 --> 00:47:05,29 and the idea of journaling and other forms of writing not to solve problems but 600 00:47:05,30 --> 00:47:09,67 just externalise them and there has been some fascinating research by 601 00:47:09,68 --> 00:47:14,69 a psychologist called James Pennebaker into the power of this is not that it's not 602 00:47:14,70 --> 00:47:19,77 that when you sit down for fifteen minutes and write out your current state your 603 00:47:19,78 --> 00:47:22,36 mind in a notebook that you solve 604 00:47:22,94 --> 00:47:27,69 a problem it's the act of externalizing that sort of shifts the perspective and has 605 00:47:27,70 --> 00:47:33,33 some really extraordinary. Effect for I think as I may be. 606 00:47:35,73 --> 00:47:38,60 Misremembering this but there is a there is some studies there is 607 00:47:38,61 --> 00:47:45,45 a study of from London that involved. Inflicting very very small very 608 00:47:45,49 --> 00:47:51,38 tiny micro sort of paper cuts basically on people and and then are trying. 609 00:47:52,50 --> 00:47:56,02 That physical healing among people who either spend fifteen minutes 610 00:47:56,03 --> 00:48:02,76 a day journaling about the issues and those who didn't and. To monitor the Found 611 00:48:02,77 --> 00:48:09,22 a difference in literally on the physical level the healing of my crew wounds. 612 00:48:10,41 --> 00:48:11,18 But but just on 613 00:48:11,19 --> 00:48:15,67 a psychological level I mean I do that myself you know I think I think that writing 614 00:48:16,06 --> 00:48:21,28 writing is the sort of place where you can externalize the stuff without 615 00:48:21,39 --> 00:48:24,37 necessarily having to share it with anybody else because you don't share what you 616 00:48:24,38 --> 00:48:31,24 write new car insurance. Anything point I can think of really 617 00:48:31,25 --> 00:48:33,02 in response to that but it's 618 00:48:33,03 --> 00:48:36,29 a really good point I mean you have to reflect and it's not good enough to just 619 00:48:36,93 --> 00:48:43,82 hear someone say that these things are important thank you. Hi I've 620 00:48:43,82 --> 00:48:44,09 been 621 00:48:44,11 --> 00:48:50,07 a very reflective type in my life recently I've had to confront some very hard failures 622 00:48:50,77 --> 00:48:57,71 and in looking back on these failures I'm seeing that if I had been 623 00:48:57,72 --> 00:49:03,27 paying attention at the time instead of just barreling forward and saying you know 624 00:49:03,28 --> 00:49:07,63 in spite of it all I'm going to achieve this goal that I would have seen that this 625 00:49:07,65 --> 00:49:12,37 is not going to work out for me and so I'm wondering if part of what you're talking 626 00:49:12,38 --> 00:49:19,34 about is is paying attention to what's going on here and now yeah I think 627 00:49:19,35 --> 00:49:24,85 it totally is and I think it's like the hardest thing there is to do and I'm not. 628 00:49:26,15 --> 00:49:29,72 Going to claim that I. Have got that figured out 629 00:49:29,73 --> 00:49:36,46 a toll. I interviewed for another chapter his book totally Who is the author of The 630 00:49:36,47 --> 00:49:41,84 Power of Now. And who I was sort of mended to dismiss given my sort of general 631 00:49:41,85 --> 00:49:46,77 position on these things but who I I. I really don't I hope dismissing the book 632 00:49:46,78 --> 00:49:51,69 because I think he has an awful lot of. Extremely Important perspective. 633 00:49:53,91 --> 00:49:54,51 I was going to say has 634 00:49:54,52 --> 00:49:56,74 a lot of interesting things to say but that's not the point the point is that his 635 00:49:56,75 --> 00:50:03,07 writing sort of points you back into the. Into the present moment. And I think that 636 00:50:03,35 --> 00:50:06,10 meditation is a sort of in one sense as a kind of 637 00:50:06,11 --> 00:50:12,100 a training in that kind of attentional. Training but it is incredibly difficult and 638 00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:19,52 . We're not helped by all these by these focuses on goals and and 639 00:50:20,12 --> 00:50:25,70 the books and the. Speakers that I that I've read about in here because that is all 640 00:50:25,74 --> 00:50:26,38 very 641 00:50:26,64 --> 00:50:30,42 a way of thinking about life but it's completely focused on barreling toward at full 642 00:50:30,43 --> 00:50:35,35 speed into the into the future so I think actually right I mean but if you discover 643 00:50:35,39 --> 00:50:37,28 the secret then let me know but 644 00:50:44,73 --> 00:50:46,18 since I'm also English and also 645 00:50:46,19 --> 00:50:52,07 a writer I thought I'd come up here and engage you in some competitive. Kids 646 00:50:52,29 --> 00:50:56,65 because it seems to me that listening to you talk about particularly about the kind 647 00:50:56,66 --> 00:51:03,66 of Tony Robbins I have huge weighty school. Positive thinking. He does people 648 00:51:03,67 --> 00:51:04,80 like that will say well it's 649 00:51:04,81 --> 00:51:09,10 a study that shows that if you only do this then this way you've also said 650 00:51:09,11 --> 00:51:14,26 a lot of well in fact instead if you do this this one has more pessimistic scenario 651 00:51:14,27 --> 00:51:19,01 which is the one I'm inclined to myself which is it could be that all of those 652 00:51:19,02 --> 00:51:23,14 psychological studies that people have got their Ph D.'s on should always not and 653 00:51:23,15 --> 00:51:29,99 that in fact the question of how our emotional makeup relates to our effectiveness 654 00:51:30,06 --> 00:51:33,72 which is more in life which is what this is all really about is just 655 00:51:33,73 --> 00:51:39,75 a mystery and if you think you look at people who have that kind of stoic calm that 656 00:51:39,76 --> 00:51:44,30 can be very noble and remarkable and enviable and it might even be very effective 657 00:51:44,34 --> 00:51:48,35 perhaps for some people some of the time but then if you look at famous artists and 658 00:51:48,36 --> 00:51:55,13 famous leaders. Most of them are total national screw ups and not me or you 659 00:51:55,14 --> 00:52:01,64 obviously. If you look at the total emotional screw up just to take them as 660 00:52:01,65 --> 00:52:03,13 a class you pick yourself half 661 00:52:03,14 --> 00:52:07,60 a dozen total emotional screw ups would be very effective where though they're 662 00:52:07,61 --> 00:52:12,98 being that way was part of what made them effective or made them less effective 663 00:52:12,99 --> 00:52:15,71 than they would have been if they hadn't been like that is something we just don't 664 00:52:15,74 --> 00:52:20,53 know and if that's the case none of the studies on either side show us anything 665 00:52:20,54 --> 00:52:22,37 about what we're trying to be like it's 666 00:52:22,38 --> 00:52:28,02 a really really profound point and I think I mean what I hope I did in this book. 667 00:52:29,41 --> 00:52:36,27 But only other people can judge really is is I don't think of it as I 668 00:52:36,28 --> 00:52:39,60 mean as fundamentally A Times book I would say it's fundamentally 669 00:52:39,61 --> 00:52:46,52 a. Philosophy book if I had to fit into one of those categories and so I I'm 670 00:52:46,53 --> 00:52:47,83 very much sort of advocate as 671 00:52:47,84 --> 00:52:51,28 a journalist writing about the things about of using the studies as kind of tools 672 00:52:51,29 --> 00:52:55,61 to think with not not sort of it's not 673 00:52:55,62 --> 00:52:58,18 a question of right you might think this and you might think that but here's one 674 00:52:58,19 --> 00:53:01,91 study that happened that university and that settles the issue it's rather. 675 00:53:04,84 --> 00:53:07,27 Firstly this book is mainly just sort of a rebalancing so it's 676 00:53:07,28 --> 00:53:10,19 a question of like you know we've all gone off in this direction but there is this 677 00:53:10,20 --> 00:53:13,16 whole side of things too and then secondly I think it's really 678 00:53:13,17 --> 00:53:18,84 a question of saying possibly the thinking about these studies and these 679 00:53:18,91 --> 00:53:24,84 philosophers insights and these. Sort of silly personal experiments that I run on 680 00:53:24,85 --> 00:53:28,16 myself possibly they can act as 681 00:53:28,17 --> 00:53:33,03 a sort of intervention in how you think about your own. Like not because you're 682 00:53:33,04 --> 00:53:34,62 going to follow the findings of 683 00:53:34,63 --> 00:53:38,74 a study but because it's going to sort of open up. Ways of thinking I think it's 684 00:53:38,75 --> 00:53:45,26 something that anyone in anything approximating finds journalism we are not the 685 00:53:45,27 --> 00:53:48,43 only thing myself the first journalist but to the extent that I am I think it's 686 00:53:48,44 --> 00:53:52,77 only if we really careful about it because you're constantly. Simply choosing 687 00:53:52,78 --> 00:53:57,55 studies that that work for you and ignoring the ones that I have to say I think I 688 00:53:57,56 --> 00:54:02,71 have some argument on my side based on the fact that several of the studies that 689 00:54:03,49 --> 00:54:09,22 the Tony Robbins types turn out to be fictional when you don't even exist in the in 690 00:54:09,23 --> 00:54:12,37 the literature but your point is very well taken I mean I think I think these are 691 00:54:12,95 --> 00:54:19,09 so used to stop thinking about your own life rather than. Gospel truth to to follow 692 00:54:19,10 --> 00:54:25,96 because it's been proven to be true with the power of positive 693 00:54:25,97 --> 00:54:32,72 thinking and this search and Amen working toward hype happiness I get 694 00:54:32,73 --> 00:54:39,32 totally exhausted at the very thought is it OK if I can just get through my day 695 00:54:39,86 --> 00:54:44,42 and do things that I succeed at and feel contempt with 696 00:54:46,60 --> 00:54:50,70 absolutely yeah I mean thank you for your question but yes yes. 697 00:54:58,76 --> 00:54:58,93 I have 698 00:54:58,94 --> 00:55:06,49 a couple of questions First I haven't read your book yet but I think I will. But 699 00:55:06,50 --> 00:55:11,94 what I've gotten from what you've said is what I've taken from it is. You're 700 00:55:11,95 --> 00:55:17,73 talking about this polarity that happens when people that showcase just on positive 701 00:55:17,77 --> 00:55:24,03 you know positive everything how that creates this huge space where we don't see 702 00:55:24,73 --> 00:55:29,76 reality essentially we're basically focused on this thing that we've imagined and. 703 00:55:31,72 --> 00:55:36,17 So I guess I just wanted to see if it's that's kind of where you were going with 704 00:55:36,18 --> 00:55:41,72 this that. Going just focusing on the positive you're basically missing 705 00:55:41,76 --> 00:55:46,76 a lot of information that could be useful and that brings up for me that can also 706 00:55:46,77 --> 00:55:52,86 happen with negative thinking. You know I know many people who have focused on 707 00:55:52,90 --> 00:55:59,81 negatively to their detriment so it makes me think it's not you're bringing up the 708 00:55:59,82 --> 00:56:05,18 Power of Negative Thinking it's very catchy I love the title. Mostly because of the 709 00:56:05,19 --> 00:56:12,15 culture that we're so bombarded with and you're trying to say. It's 710 00:56:12,16 --> 00:56:18,12 more about thinking and keeping it open and not getting trapped in this polarity or 711 00:56:18,13 --> 00:56:22,49 that. And yeah I want to know if that's kind of what you are saying you know it 712 00:56:22,50 --> 00:56:28,53 absolutely is and I would also add. That it's to do with this idea of will change 713 00:56:28,54 --> 00:56:35,02 because even for people who you may know who are problematically completely 714 00:56:35,03 --> 00:56:39,17 embedded in their utility you know think positive is really bad advice for those 715 00:56:39,75 --> 00:56:44,49 people usually you know personally but you know as a as 716 00:56:44,50 --> 00:56:47,61 a way of. Dealing with 717 00:56:47,62 --> 00:56:51,20 a problematic focus on negatives you know the worst advice that you can give 718 00:56:51,21 --> 00:56:55,47 a depressed person I think is you know to to look on the bright side and to think 719 00:56:55,48 --> 00:56:59,98 positive so so you're completely right that it's to do with the sort of narrowness 720 00:56:59,99 --> 00:57:05,80 of the tunnel vision it would be totally possible to commit the opposite fallacy. 721 00:57:06,89 --> 00:57:10,98 In reverse which I sort of try to avoid But 722 00:57:13,87 --> 00:57:18,05 but then it's also about positive thinking as this idea of will change of emotions 723 00:57:18,06 --> 00:57:22,75 but I think that there's a sense in which that is maybe more of 724 00:57:22,76 --> 00:57:27,89 a feel more confident saying that's maybe pretty much always about I do here. Not 725 00:57:27,90 --> 00:57:30,12 because. Because that is 726 00:57:30,13 --> 00:57:36,35 a bad idea because it will change. Our mind off.