Thank you very much indeed. And thank you for coming along it's great to see so
many people here. All talk for a bit and then. We have a have
a conversation some questions. And then if there's time I think you should all we
should all right work across hot coals in our back feet using only the power of
positive thinking to. Keep from burning. When I began
doing the reporting for this for this book which is in brief about what's wrong
with the idea in the culture of positive thinking and what the alternatives might
be. I want to make a vacation of femina in Texas part of
a series called Get Motivated I'm trying to pronounce the explanation point and the
name. One of the speakers was a guy called Robert Schuller who is
a veteran self-help author and also in his other job he's the founder of the
largest church in America constructed entirely out of glass. And he told
a fit if we wanted to six it's an achievement and he told us that if we wanted to
succeed if we wanted guaranteed success all we had to do was to eliminate the word
impossible from my vocabulary in other words if you focus only on things working
out and that's how to make sure that things will indeed work out
a few months later I saw in the news that his church had filed for bankruptcy.
Which is
a word he evidently failed to eliminate from his recovery. Actually since this book
went to the printer has since been printed just
a couple of months ago someone told me I found out and confirmed it but get
motivated itself has filed for bankruptcy. I want to be quite seriously clear I'm
not knocking people for going bankrupt I'm
a newspaper journalist so I have to think hard about the possibility of bankruptcy
but clearly something is wrong with these guaranteed methods of success when they
don't guarantee success for the people who promote them I want to talk
first today about something that is far less amusing about something really awful
actually which is what happened. The tragedy that unfolded on Mount Everest in one
thousand nine hundred six if you read John Krakauer excellent book Into Thin Air
you'll know all about this in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight climbers died
in one twenty four hour period on Mount Everest and fifteen died over the course of
that summer's climbing season this was an extraordinary record breaking death toll
and all the more extraordinary for the fact that. By one thousand nine hundred six
climbing Everest was essentially
a known quantity today if you have the money and you're willing to put in the
training you can pay people to take you to the summit regardless of. Your
specific level of expertise and yet still as recently as one thousand nine hundred
six there was there was this appalling toll what's strange is that nobody's ever
really been able to explain since then. What happened. There was no
extremely unusual weather there were
a few problems things like guide ropes that hadn't been put in the right places but
nothing that really accounts for what unfolded and Jon Krakauer has some
interesting insights in his book about the way the personalities of some of the
climbers could have contributed to what happened but even that doesn't get you to
an explanation just briefly if you don't know what happened is that there was
essentially a traffic jam at
a place called the Hillary Step A couple of hundred feet below the summit of
Everest all these climbers became bottlenecks and bunched together so it
interrupted their smooth progress to the top and back down again and instead of
following the protocol which says that if you're delayed by certain amount you have
to turn back and abandon the attempt these very experienced climbers pushed on and
on despite the delay the Coast Guard said they should have turned back if they
hadn't if they couldn't reach the summit by I think it's two pm is the latest of
the times they were working too and yet many of them ended up reaching the summit
much later than that which meant that they defended the mountain in darkness and
the worst of Everest weather and that's when. Tragedy struck and still nobody
really knows why it happened. But want to find out if there was somebody
else in the area that day not on the mountain but in the foothills who I think at
first glance is the least likely person to have anything remotely useful to
contribute to understanding. An incident like this he was
a burned out stockbroker from Indiana called Christopher cave and he was on
a hiking holiday because he just wanted to recharge his batteries. But he was very
well with well this was happening really quite close by and the moment he
discovered about this tragedy he came across people who had been involved in the
rescue mission and spoke to them it really haunted him and nor to him and he told
me that it was basically as if it had happened to members' own family the degree to
which it weighed on his mind he ended up dedicating years of his professional life
in his in his next career to to understanding what could have gone wrong that day
and what really haunted him about it was that it reminded him of
a phenomenon that he'd observed many many times. In the corporate world that he had
become so sick of what would happen is that a corporate leader or
a chief executive would announce some big ambitious goal for that for the company
he or she would commit to it very publicly. Try to get all the employees to
commit to it motivate everybody to be completely focused on this on this big vision
and then slowly evidence would start to creep in that maybe it hadn't been
a wise goal maybe it was going to cause problems elsewhere in the in the company
maybe it was going to even cause the company to collapse and of course that would
make everybody feel very nervous and anxious and uncertain and worried but here's
where it gets interesting because they couldn't stand those feelings because they
were so allergic to the feelings of uncertainty and anxiety and insecurity that
what they ended up doing was actually committing harder to the goal to try to make
those feelings go away and that is when things would go would go wrong so
Chris Kay's now is an expert on the organizational behavior at George Washington
University and I think he probably does understand how annoying it is when he when
he talks about this and writes about this for mountaineers to hear him say you know
here's
a lesson from the world of business that you can use to help you climb mountains.
But the interesting thing is it turns out there actually is quite
a lot of evidence that the same psychological pattern happens among mountaineers
that he asked the study from one to sixty three in which
a team of American psychologists had followed
a team of American climbers who were attempting to summit Everest they were
actually very dedicated psychologist to went as far as base camp with with the
climbers they had them keep very detailed diaries of their planning their motions
everything and then. And analyzed them later and. A subgroup of these climbers
decided to try
a very dangerous route to ascend Everest Riba haven't successfully been achieved
before and when their diaries run live later this same pattern could be happening.
They get some problematic information about the route that they were planning to
take maybe something to do with weather patterns or the inadequacy of their
equipment that would make them feel uncertain and anxious but then to raise those
feelings of uncertainty and anxiety. They would commit even harder to that plan
what comes out of these it happened is that they've made the go into
a part of the identities it wasn't just that they wanted to succeed at this project
anymore it was
a part of who they were and they couldn't tolerate the idea that who they were was
so infected with uncertainty and insecurity so it's not about how they took that
incoming negative information and sort of alchemize that into
a reason to do the opposite then you might think to try harder to achieve that goal
one of the American mountaineers who watched the bottleneck in ninety six through
telescope from lower down the mountain describes this effect that the summit exerts
has almost literally I mean magnetic He says it draws people on they no longer
think rationally they they become consumed with the goal and as he says on
a good day you'll get away with it and on
a bad day you'll die. Now their claim is that nine hundred sixty three did get away
with it and that that route was successfully followed and I
think Chris Kay's would admit that we can't ever know for certain that that is
exactly the dynamic that explained what happened in one thousand nine hundred six
but what I want to try to draw out of this is that I think it's
a principle that goes a long way towards explaining on
a psychological level what goes wrong with all sorts of our efforts to become happy
or successful whatever that definition is why have you defined that whether it's
climbing mountains or making lots of money or building
a happy family or just feeling good with so allergic to feeling uncertainty or
negativity and security failure. That we focus about doing everything we can to
stop those feelings out and then that becomes self sabotaging and ends up achieving
the opposite of the fact that we wanted and leading to the very fate that we were
struggling to avoid So when I tried to do in this book primarily was to explore the
opposite of that this idea that I label the negative path to happiness.
I was struck to meet
a very British idea but then I come to Seattle and everyone says it's
a very very Seattle idea in
a short time I'm going to California though so then we will test it out. On some
real positive people anyway this is
a family of ideas that goes back to ancient philosophical and spiritual traditions
but is also very much being supported by it by modern experimental psychological
research according to which we actually need to think about turning towards
uncertainty and insecurity and other forms of negativity even harnessing pessimism
and more generally the power of negative thinking instead of trying to stamp it out
at all costs. So this extrude end of positive thinking culture that
I began by by talking about which is endemic I think in America and to some extent
British corporate culture. A Barbara Ehrenreich in her excellent book Bright sided
makes a fairly strong case that it played
a significant role in the financial crisis I mean I still
think that most people can see that there's something not quite right about
a lot of the ideas of what is of this culture for example there's been some really
interesting research recently into self-help affirmations you know those peppy
phrases that you're supposed to say to yourself in the mirror. I'm good enough I'm
smart enough and gosh darn it people like me. But they make that actually you have
studied this now and. You know experimental controls and it turns out the people
who already have low self-esteem who are asked to repeat to themselves the phrase I
am
a lovable person and not feeling well. Because it provokes counter-arguments
you know you tell yourself. You tell yourself I'm
a regular person and. You just can suddenly think of all the reasons that you're
not. Another aspect of this culture is visualising your goals visualizing success
and seeing the Glee picturing everything working out. And we learn that there are
some problems with that as well contrary to my least favorite self-help book The
Secret by the way I saw
a car as if you probably know you probably know the secret but the thesis of that
book. Is that there's
a is that there's an ancient piece of wisdom that is the key to. Happiness and
Success that was passed down kept secret and passed down from. Our stock hole to
Jesus to. Leonardo da Vinci to Einstein.
To a T.V.
Producer from Australia who then wrote the book. I don't know about you but I don't
think that happened. Anyway And there's a fascinating experiment at N.Y.U.
Not long ago. Participants were rendered mildly dehydrated and and
then one group was asked to visualise drinking and I see refreshing glass of water
the other groups were asked to do things you know as different things as controls
and then or G. Levels were measured with blood pressure being used as
a proxy for that and it turns out what you want to visualize has experienced
a great a reduction in their levels of energy. Which is
a way of seems to be that they're actually becoming less motivated to achieve their
goal having convinced themselves perhaps on some subconscious level that they that
they've already achieved it sometimes when I bring up this kind of anti gall stuff
people mention. The Yale study of gold which if you've ever read any of these books
on the importance of goal setting and and in achievement you'll. You'll probably
have heard of because it's everywhere in it and it's
a study that found in one hundred fifty three researchers after graduating class of
you know university which of them had specific written down goals for the rest of
their lives and only three percent of them said they have twenty years later the
research has tracked them down and found that that three percent accumulated more
financial wealth than the other ninety seven percent combined It's an incredible
argument for the importance of goal setting and it is I'm not getting it in scores
of books it turns out there's
a methodological floor with his study. Which is that it's completely made up.
Just doesn't exist and if you ring up after this to your university like I did and
get them to sort of search the archives they said well first of all they side
because they get off about all the time. And then they say anyway they're going to
check again and and they and they find nothing but I still think that this kind of
stuff acclamations visualization they are an easy target it's
a fun target but it's an easy target and I what I really want to suggest is that to
some extent we were caught in this this trap that one of the philosophers I write
about calls the cult of optimism that maybe in that in such extreme and ridiculous
ways but on some level we all fall victim to this idea that happiness excess means
stamping out the negative asserting positive emotions at all cost persuading
ourselves that everything must and is going to work out for the best the
alternative perspective on or less this is negative seems to me very neatly summed
up in
a quote that is often attributed to Edith Morton and that is if only we'd stop trying
so hard to be happy we could have
a pretty good time and I'm glad I discovered two weeks the firm I got went to the
printers but she didn't actually say that. I don't know who did lots of people on
the internet think she did but it's I think it's. A very valid insight anyway so in
the rest of what I've got to say I'll just maybe sketch out
a few of the stopping points that I that I made on this the so-called negative path
this idea that there's an alternative to the cult of optimism that might actually
prove more fruitful. Because it turns out that this focus on positive thinking that
seems so imbedded in self-help culture and corporate culture is
a very young historical phenomenon goes back a century and
a bit really last year was the sixtieth anniversary of the first publication of The
Power of Positive Thinking which didn't begin everything but was what was there in
the early days if you go further back in almost any historical spiritual
philosophical traditions you find that it isn't really about that. At all
so I discovered for example that there's
a whole underground community of modern day Stoics not in the sense that we use
that word in Britain today which means repressing your emotions and. Refusing to
admit to them but rather drawing on the ancient Stoics of Greece and Rome people
like epic teachers and Seneca you have
a much more accommodating approach towards negative emotions it's
a huge philosophy with many many layers but but one of the most interesting
techniques is what they called the premeditation of evils you could think of it as
negative visualization instead of focusing on the best case scenario they say
sometimes it's best to focus on the worst case scenario and in modern psychology
this is labelled defensive pessimism so we usually respond to anxiety or worry with
reassurance whether it's ourselves or somebody else you know you try to bolster the
belief that everything's going to turn out OK but there's
a. Double edged sword because in doing so you also implicitly reinforce the
implication that it would be absolutely catastrophic if things didn't turn out OK
And so the stakes I will do the opposite think through in
a calm and sober way how badly things could could really go so what happens first
of all as you usually conclude that they could go
a lot less badly than your anxiety had been. Suggesting that our that Alice
psychologist who is heavily influenced by the Starks who died
a few years ago that I interviewed for this book used to say that the worst thing
about any event in the future is usually your exaggerated belief in its horror and
so if you practice the premeditation of the evils that worry becomes finite maybe
so there's a good reason to be very worried but it's still
a finite worry instead of an infinite worry and at the same time as CYNICUS has it
have another advantage which it will make which is that it will make you appreciate
what you what you have is we hear all the time these days about the importance of
gratitude and happiness and this is
a finding that is being backed up all the time. In the research setting but it's
kind of hard to do I find anyway might just be my problem but I sent to point out
that actually
a really good straightforward route towards feeling gratitude is to imagine that
everything you enjoy today your relationships your possessions you may one day lose
I mean and ultimately in the sense of what you will or will lose he says you should
look at your closest relationships not as one of those things that cannot be taken
away but as though it were a jar or
a crystal goblet meaning fragile and charitable and you can even take this to the
next level and deliberately bring about the worst case scenario in certain contexts
to prove to yourself that you could cope are ballasts used to say that if you're
really scared of embarrassing yourself and as
a British person I'm genetically. Really scared of embarrassing myself you should
try balancing yourself deliberately and he he recommended these things we call
shame attacking exercises and he gave me the. He gave me this prescription
basically but I'm travelling on the London Underground. And he suggested the New
York subway I did it on the London tube and literally just speaking out loud the
name of each station. As you approached.
They see me strange how awful if if they think about it because. When you sort of
contemplated in detail you think well I'm not going to be holding
a piece or anybody I'm not going to be inconveniencing anybody you could argue I'm
helping them in
a sense I mean and yet the prospect of doing it is absolutely to someone like me
anyway and turned to many people I think agonizing.
And I did it and it was pretty horrible.
But this is important think it's
a finite kind of horrible You don't get arrested or attacked you know the
consequences do not begin to justify the level of excruciating emotion that
accompanied thinking about it in advance what happens is
a couple of people you know look up from their newspapers and then go back to the
newspapers because I remember well well proven finding
a social psychology most people most of the time thinking about themselves and the
result of doing this is that your embarrassment is cut your fear of embarrassment
is cut down to size your your beliefs become infused with this dose of reality the
anxiety disperses and briefly sort of feel great actually I felt. For
a short time after that I felt as good as I've ever felt. I
would make
a habit of doing it. I might try to Seattle. The Buddhist tradition
as well I think offers many. Obvious insights on that obviously relevant I mean to
the to the negative half to happiness mindfulness meditation of course is all the
rage these days and so while I was researching this book I went on
a week long silent meditation retreat at the Insight Meditation Society in
Massachusetts where I got up at five thirty every day with forty other people spent
about nine hours a day. Watching my breath. And at first this is
a total nightmare to do as some of you may have experienced. Because you realize
that when you try to make your mind really really calm and quiet all you see is how
incredibly noisy it is that for almost the first few days of this retreat I had the
lyrics to. The song Barbie Girl by Aqua. You know
from one nine hundred seventy Danish Norwegian both I think. Sort of disco pop
absolutely terrible song which I never liked you know it wasn't I wasn't I wasn't
singing to myself but it just jammed into my brain in
a way that wouldn't wouldn't leave. But then eventually something happens and those
sort of sense of opening and what you realize is that actually it isn't about
trying to make your mind as calm and as tranquil as you possibly can what it about
is is what I think Buddhist writers would would call non-attachment
the popular metaphor here is to learn to see your thoughts like weather patterns
rising and passing away it's not that you try to push away the bad stuff but that
you let whatever comes positive or negative just sort of be until it goes away
again. American British writer and teacher called Charlotte back who
put it beautifully I think when she said that the point of meditation practice is
not to change the contents of the container that is the mind but to become
a bigger container which is not the same as saying by the way that I feel that it's
a start of passive a teacher to wards life I think it's just
a question of not. Not fixating on manipulating the emotional content that goes
along with things in life I think it absolutely doesn't mean resigning yourself to
the kinds of circumstances that in fact you should change. And then the third and
final example of this negative parts that are all that are mentioned here is the
largely forgotten tradition of memento mori the idea of building in constant
reminders of mortality into daily life I think it's pretty obvious that death is
the ultimate example of
a negative thing that we try to ignore and not think about only to find ourselves
completely unprepared when when we're forced to think about it the psychologist on
us back or in his famous book from the seventy's or denial of death that actually
trying not to think about death accounts for almost all significant human activity
. I spent
a little Raul reporting this book and in Mexico during the day of the dead
celebrations it's fairly well known and I want to avoid making sort of sweeping
cultural generalizations but it is really quite extraordinary to be that then for
anyone who's more familiar with an American or British for Halloween which takes
place at roughly the same time and has related roots. How in is basically
a holiday dedicated to the celebration of candy as far as I can recount in this
country. The bread Romney is
a celebration of death and of the fact of mortality. In
some offices in you know downtown Mexico City. People write.
Poems to each other about how they expect they might die their colleagues I mean
not themselves treating it in
a very very sort of jovial way and in the rural areas there's
a tradition of all night vigils in cemeteries I spent a night in
a cemetery where families were conducting this this vigil sitting at the graves of
their relatives playing music talking drinking not not mourning but equally not.
Joking about death but just sort of hanging out and letting death. Seep into
life this as you probably know used to be
a lot more common there are many old traditions in art and for example including
the an image of the scroll of the. Patron of the artist pictured in
a still life as
a reminder that he too was going to die. Those are fascinating study
a few years ago illustrating the power of this kind of remembering of death where.
People are observed some people are observed taking a shortcut through
a cemetery and other people observe walking down
a sort of regular street some blocks away and they were both exposed by the
experimenters to people speaking on
a mobile phone about the importance of cell phone I say about the importance of
helping people so that sort of made the idea of helping failure in their minds and
then one of the researches dropped notes on the ground and the people working
through the cemetery with that subliminal reminder of death were thirty percent
more likely to help to pick up the drop notes so it seems that in the right context
at any rate death awareness triggers compassion or perhaps an awareness of the way
in which the one way in which we are truly all the same. And though it's
a cliché Obviously there's also the fact that awareness of mortality it's
a cliche for
a reason I think tends to focus your life on the things that matter the most those
that very famous. Quotation from Steve Jobs's graduation speech by Steve
Jobs where he he says that there's nothing better to make you realize that you
already make it if you have nothing to lose. Than remembering. The undeniable fact
that you will die. So just to draw these threads together there
disparate philosophies and disparate approaches but I think what they all share
stoicism Buddhism Memento Mori and some of the other things I write about is this
idea of turning towards negativity instead of the positive thinking focus on on
on stamping negativity out at all costs probably where this goes I think and we can
talk about this if people are interested it is beyond both negativity and
positivity it's not
a question of replacing positive thinking with negative thinking but of
transcending both of these somehow and really reevaluating our idea of what that
word happiness really means but I do think in closing that it's important to
emphasize that this isn't just
a sort of airy wishy washy spiritual position for people who want to sort of check
out of day to day life I think it's it's
a really intensely practical way to live and to achieve very worldly
kinds of success there's
a research called us who's done some fascinating studies about entrepreneurs based
on very long in-depth interviews and she concludes that actually they
naturally use some of these techniques without even really thinking about it and
really don't use the the techniques of positive thinking and goal striving that
that so much of the self-help literature would have you believe so for example they
really do use the premeditation of evil in in her work it's called the principle of
a thought about rocks. You don't try and convince yourself your project is going to
work out you say what would be the cost if it didn't work out and if that is
affordable. Then that's the only criterion that you need to meet you then should
you should and should do whatever it is you're thinking about doing. Don't make by
and large these vivid detailed plans of what they're going to have achieved in five
years and then stubbornly fight until reality bends to their will they don't
instead they turn to ruins uncertainty they don't learn how to move forward without
knowing exactly where they're going to end up but to still make fruitful progress
to move forward alongside those feelings of uncertainty constantly revising the end
point and the really nice analogy that I liked is that there are less like girl
made chefs who visualise
a dish and then source the ingredients from all over the world but they're much
more like any of us coming home after
a day at work seeing what's in the refrigerator in the cupboard using the things at
their disposal to see what they can build and being constantly ready to change the
definition of what it is that they're trying to build it's somewhat similar. I
discovered with writing
a book because if you listen to the motivational coaches that will tell you that
the crucial thing you have to do to beat procrastination which I certainly suffered
from when I was writing this is to get motivated. To to bust through your feelings
of procrastination to to work yourself up into
a motivated state where all you want to do is work but when you look at this
through the perspective of non-attachment in Buddhism and the premeditation of
evils and stoicism and all the rest of it. You begin to see that actually this is
this actually adds an extra hurdle because what this says is not only that you need
to work on your project or write your book whatever it may be but you also need to
feel the right way before you do it you need to get your emotions exactly right
before you can add so it actually inserts an obstacle into the into the writing
process. As it is the same idea as you know waiting for inspiration to strike or
trying to make yourself feel inspired Instead you can just co-exist with those
feelings of not wanting to the work of procrastination and reluctance and and act
at the same time anyway it's
a famous observation from the artist Chuck Close He says it's variation is for
amateurs the rest of us just get to work I really love the writing I
quoted all the time phrases great from those uninspired Japanese psychiatry and
psychologist show memory to and he's made me go commit sort of anti positive
thinker. And. It was advice for living which I just think is
fantastic he says give up on yourself begin taking action now being neurotic or
imperfect or
a procrastinator other healthy well lazy or any other label by which you can
accurately describe yourself go ahead and be the best imperfect person you can be
and get started on those things you want to accomplish before you die I think
that's
a kind of great way to think about approaching life go to visit you know you can
walk across hot coals in your bare feet and prove to yourself the power of positive
thinking is completely up to you but that's all I've got to say so thank you very
much for the. Hi Hi So I have two questions
the first I'm talking about corporate culture and everything in that whole and I
have seen that many times that you know you have to score and everybody gets behind
it and then you know it's looking like it's going to be
a train wreck and we all just sort of pretend that it's not going to be
a train wreck but don't you think that has
a lot to do is our competitive culture and people not wanting to fail they're
winners and losers and people there are a winner and if I'm
a winner I can't fail and that's part of that yeah absolutely absolutely I think
it's a really good point I mean there's
a I write about but didn't talk about the sort of failure aspect of this analogies
to failure I went to. A place in Michigan which has become known as the Museum of
failed products. It isn't they don't like that name. Possibly for obvious
reasons but it's a it's just
a collection of consumer goods that failed basically. And the reason it exists is
a viable. It's
a private library that product designers come to inspect and they pay for that
privilege the reason it exists in the first place is because so many of these firms
are actually terrible at keeping records of the things that went wrong or looking
closely into the things that went wrong and learning from them so you know find
that product manager put those failed products in
a closet and move them to the next insistence on on success. And yet as those other
writers in this area who I am forgetting who right now but who witnessed
motivational coaches tell an entire room of of employees at the same firm that they
can all be the number one salesman next year. So yeah I
think I think you're absolutely right I think I think they'd these two things go
together basically the idea of not of the allergy to failure and the sort of
fixation on. Big over committing to goals sort of if you each other.
OK so my second question. Is around gratitude and I really am
a firm believer that. A strong sense of gratitude leads to happiness and do you
think that that kind of ties in I mean if you're if you have like all these great
goals and you know totally positive it's hard to feel grateful because you know all
these goals and you're here and all these goals are appear and it's hard to feel
grateful so I mean your philosophy to sort of embrace the negative look at what's
the worst possible thing that could happen and if something better than that
happens then you can feel grateful and and I really and I'm not sure I mean you
talked
a little bit about the idea of gratitude leading to happiness and and I wonder if
you could address how you think that sort of ties into your philosophy of negative
thinking where the whole the whole thing as I understand it in terms of whether
psychological research is that is that gratitude. Quite apart from whether it's an
ethical value that it is good for those reasons it works because it
counteracts don't it treadmill you know the way that anything we get in our lives
becomes. Part of the backdrop of our lives too quickly so you know anything from
just
a i Pad to. A new relationship you know the full gamut
if not the steps delivering the same degree of. Of happiness. Because
it because we're so good climatized to those things and Gratitude is
a way of sort of noticing. Those things that you'd otherwise be climatized to
be I write this column in The Guardian which you know in many ways takes
a sort of very skeptical look at self-help books and culture but I sort of was
forced to concede that the idea of keeping
a gratitude journal which seems so you know is did really seem very sort of calming
to me and not something that I would probably admit to my friends but you know I.
Whether you from personal experience now but from you know if you want peer
reviewed studies there purview studies that works because you are calling bring
into focus I think that otherwise fall into the background so that's completely I
completely think that it is critical I think start out by asking yourself imagining
the fact that you could lose things you have is one is one way towards that. You
know that the different approach is suitable for different people at different
times but I think that you know that is quite
a powerful way of doing it because then you really do start to feel grateful
whether or not you've reached any specific sort of predetermined goal he's up. You
can thank you very much. Let's set
a question but when you get your subway exercise I was wondering you said you had
residual positive effects for a short while where I thought was a few hours or
a few days or
a few weeks. I think I think there are probably emotional and cognitive levels that
sort of so I'm the sort of I didn't feel sorry up for more than an hour or so you
know that was very short term. But I think it did change something in
a modest way. Cognitively you know I I certainly use that
what's the worst that could happen question with all the time life of daily life.
Increasingly I enjoy speaking to people but it's still you know on some level
you're
a bit nervous about it so it's always good to remember well the worst thing is that
a room full of people could like be reborn think I was an idiot that is not the
same I have
a nuclear war you know and it and it and it doesn't warrant the kind of exactly
that would that would go along with the prospect of
a nuclear war so that I think after the belong Hi Hi.
I guess is I was listening to you I was having a problem where I was thinking
a lot of times what you described as negative thinking I was thinking that's
positive thinking all right and now given it and actually like that Mt Everest
thing for you know. Then going up the hill when there was bad circumstances that
wasn't positive thinking to me that was stupidity but the positive if they had
turned back where I think in your mind that's negative to me it would be like OK
we're going to turn back and make the best of this like we will do the smart thing
but we put
a positive spin on it Reich OK well now we have more time to visit or sit by the
fire whatever and I I do or many examples you gave that way like your being on that
like imagining the worst case scenario to me again that's positive you think if
this is as bad as it can get and it's not that bad that's positive thinking to me
so I just you know I think I think you're not wrong I think it's I think it's
a partly
a semantic distinction because the way I'm defining positive thinking I maybe
should make it clearer but I think I'm finding positive thinking is as the sort of
world effort to replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts I think the the
techniques in the approaches that I write about appreciatively in this book I think
are good ones you know they're still focused on that point of being happy and if
they work then hopefully they make you happy so if positive thinking simply means
being being happy then then I think it's very hard for anyone to be against it I
think it's that I don't the world focus on trying to change. Emotional states and
thoughts rather than. What you are calling positive thinking I'm just I would
suggest that you sort of like why it's path to happiness and the fact that they get
you to happiness is definitely positive in
a sense so I really think we agree. Because I'm still thinking positive perspective
yeah on the negative. And you're saying that's negative and I'm going to let you
know where they were I mean that's so firstly I think it is mantic distinction but
then secondly as I sort of touched on the very end it gets into this kind of very
not just semantic but sort of extremely deep thing but my journey through the
process of writing this book was was not to just become. Certain that I was right
that positive thinking was bad or negative thinking was good but these are part
this is
a priority that they were out each other bad that somehow you know you only have
the positive because of the negative and vice versa and that transcending that
distinction is probably where one has to go next in terms of understanding on
a philosophical level what what happiness is so on that level the fact that what
you think of as positive I think is a negative vice versa or is actually
a function the fact that you know these things define each other you can't have the
peak of a way without the trough of a wave would think. Right there was just
a natural progression that in which case in which case don't change that is not the
message you took and not the message because not that if you're if you wake up
feeling very happy every day you should stop feeling sad. Thank you thank you so
much. Yeah I think this happiness movement
is problematic I actually met the woman who wrote The Happiness Project and she's
one of most miserable people ever in my opinion which is odd but I think her whole
world has been defined by trying to become happy right and just
a New York Times bestseller out of that doesn't mean her project has won it for her
though so when I wake up in the morning I think am I supposed to be happy today am
I looking for happiness today I don't look to be happy all day long but the society
says it in so many different ways that that's what we're supposed to be what would
you say is
a healthy motional state for most of us throughout the course of those sixteen
hours that we're awake. It's
a very good question because actually when you look at like the Stoics For example
you find that. The pinnacle of emotional states for them was
tranquility that wasn't. There was an excitement which is what they try to
incorporate get made or did they get motivated. And incidentally that's why
motivational seminars that's the business model you know it works it makes you feel
great for about three days and then it fades and you have to go back for some more
. So I think I mean just in general I think you make
a really good point that clarifying me the specific goal here is is kind of
important there's
a psychologist called Paul Pierce or. Who argued that. For
eight of the is the. Is the emotion that we should be focusing on here besides sort
of radical openness mixed with negative with negative and positive emotions mixed
in mixed in together that's probably not
a sort of every hour of the day emotion but
a sort of peak peak experience. Emotion again we got to this problem of
the difference between the descriptive way that you may feel and if someone feels
excited every hour of the day I think that's totally fine I mean those people tend
to be
a bit annoying but. It's but it's totally fine versus whether
you should advise yourself or other people to make the effort to become like that
and I think it's that it's in that sort of. It's in trying to will those kinds of
situations those kind of emotions as you as you rightly say I think that that all
the problems arise we can all have different definitions of what feels best.
But it's but but even if that definition is
a good one trying to force it into being is is is unlikely to is likely to bring
about. I didn't really answer the question but I'm not sure it can be answered.
Hello sorry OK I was having
a hard time formulating my question but do you write about or do you have any
favorite research about different ways to acknowledge or reflect on changes or
changing goals it seems like gratitude is probably an example of this but I think
there's a difference between an entrepreneur who does
a really good job of sort of changing their goals to meet what they have an C.E.O.
Who sets a goal and then sticks to it no matter what and then maybe
a third kind who sets
a goal and then maybe changes it along the way but doesn't acknowledge that they
were changing along the way and probably isn't getting the benefits of saying oh
it's OK that we change or we're doing maybe we feel
a little bit too you know anything or do you care about like. It's
a great question the only thing that immediately makes me think of that I have
written about and talked to people about is is is just writing things down you know
and the idea of journaling and other forms of writing not to solve problems but
just externalise them and there has been some fascinating research by
a psychologist called James Pennebaker into the power of this is not that it's not
that when you sit down for fifteen minutes and write out your current state your
mind in a notebook that you solve
a problem it's the act of externalizing that sort of shifts the perspective and has
some really extraordinary. Effect for I think as I may be.
Misremembering this but there is a there is some studies there is
a study of from London that involved. Inflicting very very small very
tiny micro sort of paper cuts basically on people and and then are trying.
That physical healing among people who either spend fifteen minutes
a day journaling about the issues and those who didn't and. To monitor the Found
a difference in literally on the physical level the healing of my crew wounds.
But but just on
a psychological level I mean I do that myself you know I think I think that writing
writing is the sort of place where you can externalize the stuff without
necessarily having to share it with anybody else because you don't share what you
write new car insurance. Anything point I can think of really
in response to that but it's
a really good point I mean you have to reflect and it's not good enough to just
hear someone say that these things are important thank you. Hi I've
been
a very reflective type in my life recently I've had to confront some very hard failures
and in looking back on these failures I'm seeing that if I had been
paying attention at the time instead of just barreling forward and saying you know
in spite of it all I'm going to achieve this goal that I would have seen that this
is not going to work out for me and so I'm wondering if part of what you're talking
about is is paying attention to what's going on here and now yeah I think
it totally is and I think it's like the hardest thing there is to do and I'm not.
Going to claim that I. Have got that figured out
a toll. I interviewed for another chapter his book totally Who is the author of The
Power of Now. And who I was sort of mended to dismiss given my sort of general
position on these things but who I I. I really don't I hope dismissing the book
because I think he has an awful lot of. Extremely Important perspective.
I was going to say has
a lot of interesting things to say but that's not the point the point is that his
writing sort of points you back into the. Into the present moment. And I think that
meditation is a sort of in one sense as a kind of
a training in that kind of attentional. Training but it is incredibly difficult and
. We're not helped by all these by these focuses on goals and and
the books and the. Speakers that I that I've read about in here because that is all
very
a way of thinking about life but it's completely focused on barreling toward at full
speed into the into the future so I think actually right I mean but if you discover
the secret then let me know but
since I'm also English and also
a writer I thought I'd come up here and engage you in some competitive. Kids
because it seems to me that listening to you talk about particularly about the kind
of Tony Robbins I have huge weighty school. Positive thinking. He does people
like that will say well it's
a study that shows that if you only do this then this way you've also said
a lot of well in fact instead if you do this this one has more pessimistic scenario
which is the one I'm inclined to myself which is it could be that all of those
psychological studies that people have got their Ph D.'s on should always not and
that in fact the question of how our emotional makeup relates to our effectiveness
which is more in life which is what this is all really about is just
a mystery and if you think you look at people who have that kind of stoic calm that
can be very noble and remarkable and enviable and it might even be very effective
perhaps for some people some of the time but then if you look at famous artists and
famous leaders. Most of them are total national screw ups and not me or you
obviously. If you look at the total emotional screw up just to take them as
a class you pick yourself half
a dozen total emotional screw ups would be very effective where though they're
being that way was part of what made them effective or made them less effective
than they would have been if they hadn't been like that is something we just don't
know and if that's the case none of the studies on either side show us anything
about what we're trying to be like it's
a really really profound point and I think I mean what I hope I did in this book.
But only other people can judge really is is I don't think of it as I
mean as fundamentally A Times book I would say it's fundamentally
a. Philosophy book if I had to fit into one of those categories and so I I'm
very much sort of advocate as
a journalist writing about the things about of using the studies as kind of tools
to think with not not sort of it's not
a question of right you might think this and you might think that but here's one
study that happened that university and that settles the issue it's rather.
Firstly this book is mainly just sort of a rebalancing so it's
a question of like you know we've all gone off in this direction but there is this
whole side of things too and then secondly I think it's really
a question of saying possibly the thinking about these studies and these
philosophers insights and these. Sort of silly personal experiments that I run on
myself possibly they can act as
a sort of intervention in how you think about your own. Like not because you're
going to follow the findings of
a study but because it's going to sort of open up. Ways of thinking I think it's
something that anyone in anything approximating finds journalism we are not the
only thing myself the first journalist but to the extent that I am I think it's
only if we really careful about it because you're constantly. Simply choosing
studies that that work for you and ignoring the ones that I have to say I think I
have some argument on my side based on the fact that several of the studies that
the Tony Robbins types turn out to be fictional when you don't even exist in the in
the literature but your point is very well taken I mean I think I think these are
so used to stop thinking about your own life rather than. Gospel truth to to follow
because it's been proven to be true with the power of positive
thinking and this search and Amen working toward hype happiness I get
totally exhausted at the very thought is it OK if I can just get through my day
and do things that I succeed at and feel contempt with
absolutely yeah I mean thank you for your question but yes yes.
I have
a couple of questions First I haven't read your book yet but I think I will. But
what I've gotten from what you've said is what I've taken from it is. You're
talking about this polarity that happens when people that showcase just on positive
you know positive everything how that creates this huge space where we don't see
reality essentially we're basically focused on this thing that we've imagined and.
So I guess I just wanted to see if it's that's kind of where you were going with
this that. Going just focusing on the positive you're basically missing
a lot of information that could be useful and that brings up for me that can also
happen with negative thinking. You know I know many people who have focused on
negatively to their detriment so it makes me think it's not you're bringing up the
Power of Negative Thinking it's very catchy I love the title. Mostly because of the
culture that we're so bombarded with and you're trying to say. It's
more about thinking and keeping it open and not getting trapped in this polarity or
that. And yeah I want to know if that's kind of what you are saying you know it
absolutely is and I would also add. That it's to do with this idea of will change
because even for people who you may know who are problematically completely
embedded in their utility you know think positive is really bad advice for those
people usually you know personally but you know as a as
a way of. Dealing with
a problematic focus on negatives you know the worst advice that you can give
a depressed person I think is you know to to look on the bright side and to think
positive so so you're completely right that it's to do with the sort of narrowness
of the tunnel vision it would be totally possible to commit the opposite fallacy.
In reverse which I sort of try to avoid But
but then it's also about positive thinking as this idea of will change of emotions
but I think that there's a sense in which that is maybe more of
a feel more confident saying that's maybe pretty much always about I do here. Not
because. Because that is
a bad idea because it will change. Our mind off.