Hello welcome to Moral Politics produced by Bill offered I'm your host Valerie to
Rico
a year ago Moral Politics hosted again Monica Harrington of Catholic Watch dot org
who came in to talk with us about hospice hospital murders across Washington state
in which THANK YOU WERE system were being absorbed by Catholic system the countable
to the will of the bishop for example Swedish Hospital at that time had recently
been absorbed by the Providence system and become
a subsidiary of Providence. The University of Washington was proposing an
affiliation with East health also
a Catholic system and in the San Juan Islands peace health had obtained government
subsidies to provide the only care decisions in that community across the state in
fact many communities only have religiously controlled health care system and the
change is continuing apace here with us today again is Monica Harrington to talk
about what's happened in the intervening time thank you for joining us thanks for
having me out so what is the what is the scoop at this point what's going on with
these Catholic Health Care Manager the University of Washington has entered into
a partnership with the south and east path that has continued to absorb hospitals
particularly after in the northwest section of the state. Franciscan which is
one of the most conservative and has been acquiring hospitals that acquired High
Line it acquired Harrison hospital in Bremerton when you say conservative What do
you mean by that well when I think of the Catholic system I think in terms of tiers
you have ultra conservative you have conservative and you have conservative light
and ultra conservative are the Franciscan and the Franciscan system operates
according to the bishop African religious directive just call them the vision rule
and they follow those one hundred percent so no contraception no abortion under any
circumstances no participation of staff the dignity etc Most bizarre to me in
what you just described is this talk about
a merger between the University of Washington system and people and the University
of Washington system is a is
a public institution for goodness sake when the taxpayers fund it one hundred
percent How is this possible I know. It's
a policy to me that our public university and medical teaching system is
now affiliated with
a capital institution what are the implications of that there's
a few implications one of them is that they are proposing to do joint clinical
programs together joint teaching programs which means University of Washington
Medical students will be training traffic ospital or the care that training they're
already getting will be expanded in Kappa capital so the question the question for
me as
a citizen of Washington is I want science based medicine I want I want to know what
the full range of medically appropriate scientifically appropriate interventions
are if I'm suffering or if somebody in my family is suffering I don't want to think
based medicine is the University of Washington to be practicing faith based
medicine Well the University of Washington says it isn't going to practice space
based medicine but what they're doing is they're requiring or making their students
study in Catholic hospitals they do rotations in Catholic hospitals where the
bishops roll apply and it's just the Powerlink because when you work in
a system where religious rules dictate that care patients get you start to get
a sense that that's OK and it's absolutely not OK and our public university system
should not be used to support the expansion of Catholic Health Care what you're
saying is that medical trainees have been too weighted it to
a limited range of services Catholic bishops have opposed them cell research they
have opposed long long acting contraceptives which are the top tier for women
they've opposed contraception being available to women who are delivering babies
who want to be able to come out of the hospital with
a contraceptive in place so what what I guess I wonder then is that we're talking
about our medical trainees we should be cutting edge of best practices.
Perhaps not getting enough for two meetings to witness or to experience or to
practice those techniques themselves let me give you
a very practical example I was down in the limb here earlier today and the A.C.L.U.
Described a situation where a patient with a pregnancy emergency went to
a Catholic hospital accompanied by her physician and she was told that the
procedure she needed the pregnancy needed to be terminated for medical reasons for
health reasons she was told that she would have to wait until the Ethics Committee
weighed in and approved the procedure that she needed and ethics committee but this
is really
a feel logically driven committee absolutely absolutely the ethics committees in
Catholic ospital operate by Catholic role by the bishops role so what this means is
that if you are a resident in a hospital that operates by those rules all of
a sudden you're seeing
a situation where it might seem OK that you have to wait for the Ethical team to
weigh in before a woman gets
a procedure that she needs to save her life or her health that this is not standard
medical ethics this is not
a driven what I'm hearing is that the top priority is not necessarily the world of
the patient the top priority is whether the medical care corresponds to
a set of religious directives let's be clear the top priority for Catholic health
systems is to provide witness to the Catholic faith patient care is subservient to
that higher level mission of providing witness to the Catholic faith. How did
they get in the health care service delivery you know business in the first place I
know it's interesting because when you look that can you go back over one hundred
years ago the men came out to the west and they opened up hospitals or health
systems on the frontier and most of what they offered was nursing care they
comforted people as they died or as they went through sicknesses and Catholic
Health care was not different from the health care they might have gotten in
a secular facility because at that point health care was palliative essentially
right I mean people lived or died based on the will of God as they perceived it and
maybe it's because they send or maybe just because God's will was inscrutable but
but basically there wasn't medical science at that point and the other thing is the
bishop had no involvement so and none who cared about science or who wanted to
learn the best medical treatments are whenever she was free to do that because the
bishops weren't overseeing health care that all changed in the twentieth century
the bishops started to say hey we need to apply our rules whenever you talk about
the Catholic bishops. What the association meant for me is that these are the same
people who shuffle pedophile priests from parish to parish to parish right there I
mean what that says to me is that these are people whose loyalty is first and
foremost is not to the wellbeing of vulnerable people it's to the well being of the
Catholic institution and it's interesting it's important that you bring up the
whole issue of abuse in the Catholic Church because I believe we're on the cusp of
identifying. Patients that I think of as victims in the sense that they're being
victimized by
a system where they are not being given access to legal medically appropriate
treatment and oftentimes they don't even know that it's happening it's just
outrageous Well people count on their doctor to tell them you know you have this
choice or this choice they don't expect for the doctor to keep secret based on some
kind of religious directives or religion you know they don't expect anyone to have
a religious veto over their health care because if anybody's religion should come
into it it's privilege in that the patient himself or herself right so there is an
example recently where a woman needed
a terminations of pregnancy terminations and the Catholic hospital the physicians
at the Catholic hospital they told her her pregnancy needed to be terminated but
that was it they didn't tell her how that would happen they didn't arrange for her
to go see a physician at a different facility So imagine if you went to
a doctor and the doctor said you need
a very serious knee operation now I really have no idea how that might happen or
where you might go but you need
a serious knee operation that's not bad Arkell care we wouldn't allow it in any
other facet of medicine but for some reason we're saying it's OK for women's
reproductive health. Well again I come back to the idea that. That
science and patient rights and patient wellbeing kind of are what people
expect when they come into the medical system and specially
a university medical system so who would ever suspect that if you if you walk in
the door of the University of Washington or some place that the University of
Washington has endorsed as
a partner that you might not be getting the full picture right and what we're
seeing is that in the Skagit area for example there are two hospitals that recently
partnered affiliated with these have and they said publicly that one of the reasons
that they're moving ahead with their partnership with the Catholic organization is
because the University of Washington also partnered with that same Catholic
institution so the University of Washington is being used as
a shield to fuel the expansion of Catholic health care and that's just outrageous
that's not how our tax dollars should be used and the University of Washington
should be leading the fight to ensure that secular health care is available to
everyone in Washington state because the brand of the University of Washington is
State of the art right scientific full range of services.
Is where you go where nobody else can take care of you right and no one else knows
what to do when you've got something really complicated when when your home
position will be at last when you need specialized medical technology news you
expect that the University of Washington is going to endorse the very best and I'm
going to provide the very best right my own sister underwent melanoma treatment at
the University of Washington and it was high and treatment unfortunately she didn't
make it but I know how strongly my sister felt about Catholic institutions and she
made it very clear she didn't want to go near
a path. Institution and so it's really bothersome to so many people that the
University of Washington with essentially let its guard down and basically say
we're going to abandon our principles where medicine should be completely rooted in
science because it's C.D.N.
Are asked to do
a deal with the Catholic institutions that just shouldn't be allowed what the
doctors at the University of Washington think about this whole notion of faith
based medicine on their own home turf yet it's crazy a few months ago I was in
a meeting where O.B.-G.Y.N.
From around the state including from the University of Washington from some
Catholic institutions and from other secular institution we were talking about the
whole religion and health care issue and the people from the University of
Washington which included students and faculty where extremely bothered and they
were especially bothers me ministration is not publicly answering questions and is
not clearly addressing the conflict between the type of care that these faculty
members and students believe they should be getting and what the requirements are
at the South in terms of abiding by the bishops rules. As we start talking about
the role of the Catholic Church in Washington health care. One of the questions
that comes to mind her me is I think of this also in the context of national in
there being
a conversation in which religious privilege is being elevated and it's growing
rapidly you know and whether it's religious institutions or religious and
individual many people are arguing and winning arguments in the courts that they
shouldn't be subject to the obligations of civil society like providing
contraceptive coverage comprehensive kind of coverage and in health care for their
employees basically people are willing Kansas for example recently they were you
know on the law they're arguing that they should be subject to civil rights laws.
In fact there was an argument just this week that even more to should and shouldn't
have to serve gay people if being gay offends their religious sensibilities really
interesting to here in Washington we have so many enlightened them liars and the
voters are in line and we voted for same sex marriage and yet the Catholic Church
just recently won the right to be completely exempt from Washington's
anti-discrimination law when it comes to couples in same sex marriages or gay
people there's no protection for somebody who works in
a Catholic hospital and who is in any way involved in furthering their religious
mission there's no protection for that person from being fired and as we've seen
the Catholic bishop in Seattle is perfectly happy to dismiss. Same sex married
people who work for Catholic institutions Well I just happened to at the to the
vice principal at Eastside Catholic Right right and it made news national news it
made international news and so it made international news because the kids fought
back right right and so the question is why aren't people fighting back more and
a huge part of this is that people have
a hard time really grasping how horrendous it is that we have
allowed three Catholic bishops to take control of employment and health care policy
for almost half our health care system the church going to court for the right to
discriminate I mean people think of the Church of providing morals spiritual
ethical leadership you know in the civil rights movement there was there was
a lot of religious leaders who were out in front willing to put their well being on
the line with their reputations on the line and so the thought again of like the
church taking it all that all the way up through the court system because they want
the right to discriminate Yeah it's really twisted I know it's really it's really
just so appalling and it's not the Catholic Church that my parents. Supported they
supported
a version of the Catholic Church that was much more compassionate and the idea that
the Catholic Church went out of its way to win the right to fire people that
disagree with that philosophy it's just outrageous Well it reminds me of
evangelicals right I mean we have World Vision based in Federal Way that went all
the way to the Supreme Court of the United States and won the right to discriminate
based on religion right because they argued that they couldn't fulfill their
Christian mission if there was be
a logical diversity among their their warehouse workers I think it's so disturbing
that for everybody who works in health care today in Washington State that if half
the employment opportunities are with the system that refuses to acknowledge same
sex marriages that has views that people who. Find themselves
pregnant and I'm married are sinful and should be fired and in fact the Catholic
Church has fired people from Catholic institutions that happened just recently
again they had actual news right what was the story it did so there was
a middle school teacher
a single woman who was pregnant and her employer the Catholic
a Catholic institution fired her and it's ironic because that's exactly the sort of
behavior that going to drive somebody who needs to keep their job into having an
abortion which they have disapprove of right there basically saying Catch twenty
two sorry you're outta luck Right right and what's the other thing that is
a little crazy making about this whole situation is the fact that most of these
Catholic institutions are not getting their money from the church from the
offerings like they're getting their money from the taxpayer right as I understand
it ninety five ninety eight percent of the money flowing through Catholic Social
Services actually comes from from past payers and in fact they have also one
in court the right to say that if
a religious institution. Isn't allowed to compete for social service grants and
health care grants that they're being discriminated against this bizarre notion the
Catholic Church says and some other ultra conservative leaders have this notion
that religious freedom is all about having the right to impose your values on other
people and so here in Washington State we have
a health care system that is paid for in large part by government makes up about
forty five percent of the revenues broadly speaking and then you have the private
employers who make up
a huge percentage and then people who just pay for their own insurance coverage or
who pay out of pocket so that's where the funding time from and all of these
Catholic systems operate at
a surplus so the care that they provide is funded by all of us it's not coming from
Catholic specific coffers The other thing that is
a myth about Catholic Health care is that they provide more charity care than other
hospitals in fact Catholic hospitals provide less charity care than the industry
average and the A.C.L.U.
The American Civil Liberties Union and Richard Watch released
a report in December of two thousand and thirteen itemizing that because I think
most people would have no idea that Catholic institutions actually provide less
care. That it's most than charitable and they kind of think of it as Catholic money
Intel's expected to do with that would they choose I mean I actually think that it
was earlier I said that most of the money came from the taxpayers I met from the
taxpayers and from the Insurance Program right right in fact if you look at what's
happened at fund family on the island where
a Catholic hospital that is directly subsidized by taxpayers has been open for more
than a year the cost of health care up on C.N.N.
Island has gone up dramatically now why did it go up because they built
a gorgeous new facility with
a combination of donated dollars and that facility per. By the high end services
but what's interesting is because it. Goes by Catholic rules it doesn't provide any
subsidized care to pregnant women or new mothers that provide no maternity care
services on
a subsidized basis in the San Juan Islands resident even though all of their health
care is that devised in some way so and that's just because they receive is
to follow the state laws that voters enacted which could tax at the patient's right
to make reproductive choices based upon their own conscience based upon their own
feelings and what makes sense for their own family. When you talk about the sound
when islands I think of people who go there to retire and intend to send
a child the last years of their lives and I know that the bishops rules profoundly
affect the rights of patients to decide how to how in their lives right I mean
to have
a control over their dying process when the time comes the Catholic Church and the
bishops forbid any participation in this death with dignity and exponentially if
they put a noose around there
a gag order on their doctors for the doctors are not allowed to discuss staff with
dignity with patients Origen refer them directly to compassion in Theresa's which
is that organization that helps people find
a doctor who can help them exercise their rights under the law so you have
religious directives that trump patient directive America Act the Catholic Church
is very upfront about this remark so outrageous I know your end of life directive
will be honored as long as it doesn't conflict with Catholic doctrine and so we had
to get married having
a religious veto right right and the consequences can be horrifying so down in the
Vancouver area a patient who was terminal in
a great deal of pain and wanted to exercise his rights under the death of dignity
law couldn't find
a physician who was able to help in the reason is that the South has expanded
dramatically down in that Cooper area and they are the big health care providers
and there's
a chilling effect when they think none of our physicians will participate in
desperate dignity and so this patient unfortunately took his own life by shooting
himself now that's the sort of thing that we enacted the deficits need
a lot to prevent we want people to be able to choose
a peaceful death if they're facing
a painful terminal illness I know the New York Times just had an article last week
about the whole notion of death with dignity or aid in dying and they talked about
a Colorado man who is facing the same pitch. And it can't. Doesn't have the right
to manage his own dying process and the This whole of him nobody should have to
themselves nobody should have to shoot them to her random violent way to have to
die when somebody is simply wanting to be able to manage the level of pain
the the all of all of everything that goes along with that at the end of life
there's
a chilling effect for doctors if you know that your employer that you're Catholic
employer refuses to allow abortion or birth control or any participates in this
doc but. Then what happens is that you make
a different set of decisions. And so physicians who used to participate with Death
with Dignity love no longer do it and the reason they don't because they want to
help patients but they also want to get
a paycheck I think it goes back to what you're talking about at the University of
Washington you know doctors do what they're familiar with and they do with their
colleagues do they deal with what has been millions of them thinking what they have
experience and not and and if you have people coming through the training system
as residents as nurses in training and they're never exposed to conversations about
what it means for a person to be able to have
a good guy going to manage their own dying process they're not exposed to kind of
the complicated conversations about age and directness and preferences and rights
and intentions then then all of that is both questions are going to come up often
in a in
a doctor's office or say Washington would say that they're exposed in some other
situations to care that isn't restricted but the important thing is that they
should not be training in facilities where the rules are staffed by three Catholic
Bishops it's just untenable and it's really important that the region
and the medicine of Washington state make clear that we don't want our public
university system and the teaching medical hospital not just for this state but for
several states in the area to be influenced or under the direction of Catholic
position that abide by Catholic school. Or any systems that are being subjected to
that right there is
a question of autonomy for the physicians themselves and their right to be able
to do what they perceive is best for their patients what is it things to think
about in terms of women's health is that the rules that are in place in Catholic
institutions run completely contrary to the medical procedures and standards that
have been set up by the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists So the
O.B. G.Y.N. And about ninety five percent of the O.B. G.Y.N.
In the country are members of this organization that major O.B.-G.Y.N.
. Institution they basically support easy access to
contraceptives thing courage the use of long acting reversible contraceptives what
we call the top tier of contraceptive and they believe strongly that all options
should be available to women patients who might face a pregnancy and especially
a pregnancy that runs into complications and so the question is how can all be two
why and who are restricted from doing the very things that the professional body
says are critical to providing women's health care services how can they be
licensed as O.B. G.Y.N.
In this state when they are restricted because of the bishop's rules from providing
contraception providing abortion even when
a woman's life is at risk there's actually
a vicious rule against. Providing an abortion in the case of an extra uterine
pregnancy that. Pregnancy was always life threatening to
a woman and it's absurd that physicians in this day ever be kept
from doing what is appropriate and right. Monica were out of
time I know that the people of Washington state. Want to be in charge of their own
health and that as
a region we think of ourselves as being science driven we're evidence based one of
the out in front not dragging behind we can't afford to have our healthcare
anchored to believe that come down an entire thank you very much thank you.
Very.