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Poster: dudeman5685 Date: Nov 30, 2009 7:32am
Forum: texts Subject: The early homosexual rights movement

This needs to be removed

http://www.archive.org/details/TheEarlyHomosexualRightsMovement1864-1935

Though copyrighted, I uploaded this because it had looked liked a fair use note on the end side flap. The authors have since contacted me and requested that the book be removed.

Thats life.

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Poster: dudeman5685 Date: Nov 30, 2009 4:53pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

It is a shame too, as that book had alot of interesting information about the gay liberation movement, such as it was, before the 1970s. Its actually a pionnering work in that field.

I would like to state for the record that I have no "personal" interest in the work, only scholarly. (Not that there would be anything wrong if I did;) It is also an interesting item because of one of the authors, Thorstads, later career.

He was the founder of what is possibly Americas strangest special interest group, NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Nov 30, 2009 8:07pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

I have friends with a personal interest, at least one has downloaded a copy.

Taking that rights notice literally which after all, was attached to the item you found.

I said nothing more, but hurry, its only there a few more hours.

Peter

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 1, 2009 2:43pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

Gerry began a new thread, in the interests of clarity of discussion, I sure Gerry wont mind that I copied his response back into this correct thread.


Poster: garthus Date: December 01, 2009 07:16:10am

Forum: texts Subject: withdrawn permission

Technically since he had never filed a copyright registration, rules should apply to what he wrote on the book jacket. It should be able to be posted regardless of what he says. What kind of person would go back on his word in such a hypocritical and dishonorable fashion. While I still think it should be posted, I leave it to others to decide.

Gerry

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 1, 2009 2:50pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

There seems to be a misunderstanding

# Copyright ©1974 by John Lauritsen and David Thorstad

# I. THE 100th ANNIVERSARY OF GAY LIBERATION

# II. THE EARLY HOMOSEXUAL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, (1864-1935)

Peter suspects the book covered the period 1864 to 1935 but was only researched, written and published in 1974, NOT 1935, thus that explains why no sign of a copyright renewal.

The books Source Bibliography, part of which I copied and pasted at the bottom lists sources almost up to 1974. Gerry commented "To my knowledge the copyright was never registered; but between 1963 and 1989 (march 1) all the author had to do was place a notice on the text."

# "Times Change Press material is copyrighted to prevent reprinting by profit making publishers. But we readily give permission, when possible, for its use by people whose purpose is similar to our own"

The $64,000,000 question therefore, is just what "whose purpose is similar to our own" means.

NYTCP is a publisher, that is their purpose. Therefore they should have had no trouble if somebody re-published the book, for people to obtain free of charge.

But what was the authors' purpose? To inform about the early gay rights movement? (The copyright is owned by the authors as per the notice in the book)

Quite often, authors make out that their motivation in writing their non-fiction book is publicly spirited, and nothing more, they never mention that they expect to make money from their book. That would be contradictory and label them as hypocrites.

So, I believe that definition of the authors' legal copyright rights, by the publisher NYTCP is misleading and thawed. Not worth the zeros and ones, that it is encoded in.

No wonder the lawyers make big bucks, defending copyrights. At 53, I regret I never trained as a lawyer, because as an Aspie, I recoken I could poke holes into any copyright notice, using simple logic.

The notice in question, seeing the page is due for deletion, first the notice by the uploader since he added a message at the end

#On cover flap: "Times Change Press material is copyrighted to prevent reprinting by profit making publishers. But we readily give permission, when possible, for its use by people whose purpose is similar to our own" Thats certainly interpretable as a fair use note; I'm currently trying to contact the authors to get their seal of approval.

Its NEW YORK TIMES CHANGE PRESS (=times change" BTW)

The following is un-proof-read OCR from the book

# TIMES CHANGE PRESS 62 W. 14thST., NEW YORK, NY 10011

Copyright ©1974 by John Lauritsen and David Thorstad

Printed in U.S.A. Second Printing Times Change Press 62 W. 14th St., NY NY 10011 Library of Congress Cataloging in Publication Data Lauritsen, John. /io^>tin-aci The early homosexual rights movement (18b4-iy:55j Bibliography: p.90; Index: p.92 Gay liberation movement History, i. Thorstad, David, joint author. II. Title. HQ76.5.L38 301.4r57'09 ISBN 0-87810-527-1 ISBN 0-8781 0-027-X (pbk.) 74-79104 Times

Change Press material is copyrighted to prevent reprinting by profit-making publishers. But we readily give permission, v/hen possible, for its use by people whose purpose is similar to our own. We would like to express special appreciation to Dr. Warren Johansson, Jonathan Katz, and Carol Lisker for their help in gathering and preparing some of the material in this book.


Peter says the following is just a part of the Source Bibliography (note dates 1967 and 1971, there are more such dates)

# Source Bibliography


Allworth, Edward (Editor). Soviet Nationality Problems. New York and

London; Columbia University Press, 1971.
Batkis, Grigorii. Die Sexualrevolution in Russland. Berlin: Fritz Kater, 1925.
Bernstein, Eduard. Die Neue Zelt. #32 (April 26, 1895), "Aus Aniass eines

Sensationsprozess"; #34 (May 6, 1895) "Beurtheilung des widernormalen

Geschlechtsverkehrs."
Bol'shaJa Sovetskafa Entsiklopedfa (Great Soviet Encyclopedia). Moscow: First

Edition (1930), Third Edition {^9^^),s.v. gomoseksualizm.
Bfrand, Ado\f. Paragraph / 75, Berlin-Wilhelmshagen: Der Eigene, 1 91 4.
British Society for the Study of Sex Psychology. "The Problem of Sexual

Inversion." London, 1923.
Brodie, Fawn M. The Devil Drives: A Life of Sir Richard Burton. New York:

W.W. Norton & Company, 1967.
Carpenter, Edward. Civilisation: Its Cause and Cure. London: Swan

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Dec 1, 2009 2:56pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

A great pedophilia innovator? Are you serious?

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 1, 2009 3:42pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

The people involved in this discussion, are not implying agreement, or non agreement, with any of the contend of the book being discussed.

However, we are at agreement that ALL books need to be preserved for posterity.

This discussion is about copyright, and whether the book can be on the IA legally.

For hatred type comments, Noise Collector I refer you to the 1000s of other websites, where people of like mind to you, will willingly agree with hatred comments, (and even praise you for them,) against people of colour, religion, or even the way they comb their hair.

Go get your buzz there, the IA is only about preserving history, not creating it.

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Dec 1, 2009 4:12pm
Forum: texts Subject: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

1. I am all for freedom of speech (which you seem to be against.... odd). Labeling things "hatespeech" and wanting them to go away because you do not like them while arguing for preserving some child molester's work is a bit hypocrytical, no? Don't you think raping a child is violating their constitutional rights? Isn't attacking someone on the basis of age a hate crime?

2. You're a bigot for assuming anything about me, as is typical of those who throw around baseless accusations of racism and bigotry to rally sympathy to their cause... all the while claiming to be tolerant and inclusive... yeah right.

3. I saw someone praising someone who founded a group that exploits children for sex... about the worst crime imaginable and the cause of endless suffering and therapy sessions. Equating the RAPE of children by adults of ANY sexual orientation with gay rights or some noble activist author is an insult to parents, children and gay people. What the hell is wrong with you? I bet you think the homophobic, anti semitic, and european supremacist Che Guevara was a freedom fighter for "the people" too.

I run a netlabel collection here at the archive and have been a patron for years. I have contributed free music, images, video, text and software under creative commons and open source licenses. For you to presume to tell me to go somewhere else is laughable and I should not even reply to this.

I am about to be a father and groups like those above make me sick to my stomache. I don't care if jesus started the child sex cult, he would still be a pedophile even if he cured a million lepers and solved world hunger. It would never overshadow the grave depravity of molesting children.

Perhaps you do not have children or never had a family member or friend molested ... maybe you're just a douchebag, I don't know. I have tangled with bigger fish on here with much thinner skin and less control between the brain and tongue. I don't care who is gay or even who screws live light sockets for fun, but if you touch a kid, you have a serious problem.

I started thinking and I went back and read your older posts... you have stated in the past that child porn was illegal and were complaining about porn on here.... SO WHAT HAPPENED? Now you think people who speak out against sex crimes against kids are hatemongers?

I hope you can figure out what side of anything you are on in the future because like the last few times we interacted, you totally lost me. Logic is scrambling down the street like a 3 legged deaf dog on crack and he won't come back. Now back to your kiddie porn hero.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 1, 2009 7:05pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

Noise Collector,

I apologise, I got something wrong.

If you want to give Paedophiles a hard time, this Archive Forum is not the place for that.

I suggest you go and find a paedophilia website where such things will be seen by Paedophiles and appreciated more.

And there are other forms of forums to express yourself too.

Yes, paedophilia is a crime against humanity, but we are not here to criticise the content of uploaded books, or motives of members for uploading such books.

The archive is for preserving history, one day in the future when there is no more crime such as paedophilia, historians might wonder what it was all about.

Hitler was a criminal too, and he and his Nazis committed genocide against the Jewish race, some of that resulted in offenders being charged at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials and executed.

A lot of material about genocide is on the Archive, including horrifying video of the liberation of the concentration camps.

I am not aware of you finding this material and adding reviews about mass murderers.

I dont recall seeing any item you uploaded either.

It may be that you need to expand your interests, and go trawling other web sites, for discussions you can join into.

As for your full reply, later, when I have spare time, I will read it fully, to see if you have stronger dislike for paedophiles than I have. But to reiterate, the IA is not a place for such discussion, even if its just a half dozen words like in your first comment.

Peter

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Dec 1, 2009 8:09pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

No offense, but I think you are out of your mind... search my name and you will find around 400 items here in all media formats... none of which have anything to do with liberating concentration camps or

I never saw pedophile spelled with an a but then you add a "u" into color for some reason as well. Must be a british fetish... but anyway... at least you did not call me noise maker this time!

I think I accept your apology... I was not attacking you and I am glad we are on the same page about child rapists... I believe.

This site has many functions, a library, a cache of web pages a film archive and open source music like netlabels and a live music archive. You may have noticed that 99% of all posts on the front page are from a deadhead forum also...

Anyway... I should be sleeping.

Good night...

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 1, 2009 11:56pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

Sorry too.

I am in NZ, and I try for UK English spell check but MS Word refuses, only locks onto USA English.

As for THOSE people, I am suffering overload on those news items from NZ, but about 4 years ago, I had a useful business contact, until the day he resigned suddenly from his firm. It took a while to find out, but when he got caught with his niece, by law, he had to leave that company, because part of the companies role was to transport intellectually handicapped kids.

I am still spewing about it, but, its unlikely he had contact with the kids, as he was in a management role.

He had done some favours for me, in return, I let him know about possible transport contracts he could go after, but they were all for capable adults.

The guys replacement, is miles better, does the same business favours, but gets almost nothing in return, because of my poor health.

The point is, you never know, it could be the guy sitting next to you, in the coffee shop.

Peter

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Poster: dudeman5685 Date: Dec 1, 2009 8:11pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

There is nothing in the book about pedophilia per se.

Thorstad was one of the earliest gay liberation activists and founded NAMBLA in 1980, about seven years after he co-wrote this book.

He claimed that pederasty (homosexual pedophilia) was ALWAYS part of the gay liberation program and should be embraced by the gay community. "Mainstream" GLBT activist shunned him, but some earlier ones like Harry Hay and Allan Ginsburg came to NAMBLAs defense, saying pederasty was always part of gay culture and the people who were trying to "mainstreamize" the gay movement were sell outs.

I take no position on any of this. I didn't see any mention of pederasty in the book, or visual representations.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 2, 2009 12:09am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

Dudeman

I only did a quick scan of that book, looking for dates, I noted somewhere words to the affect of

Man and Boy. In a relationship sense.

But then, that was part of the mistaken beliefs about homosexuals 50 years ago that 100% of homosexuals are paedophiles by nature.

Which is the reason its a good book for historians in the future, as that belief delayed gay rights.

It maybe true sometimes, but nothing near 100%

I believe the same percentage of homosexuals are also paedophiles as the percentage of heterosexuals are paedophiles.

What is worrying, it seems the more the secret comes out, the higher the percentage goes.

As for homosexual rights, okay, they got them, I suppose they have rights but DON'T come near me with any disgusting ideas or we will be a war.

How come I only know lesbians and not gay men? If you know a lesbian, ask them what they think about gay men.

They are not even at peace amongst themselves yet.

But, on the IA, I much rather relax, than discuss such things.

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Poster: dudeman5685 Date: Dec 2, 2009 8:47am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

This is the infamous film, Boys beware

http://www.archive.org/details/boys_beware

It was produced for teens in the US in the early 1960s and presents the classical "homosexuals are all pederasts" argument.

The irony is that Thorstad and Hays believed the exact same thing, except for them it was a good thing.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 2, 2009 9:28pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

thanks

I think I came across that video once. One problem I have, is I got to read all local NZ abuse news reports, plus other news, which I can link together in my head, I am looking for small items, which might lead me towards reports about abuses in the psyche hospital systems, where the hospital, or provider is not identified. But, its about staff and management, I am concerned with. heaps of bad apples there. One patient was just discovered to have been in seclusion for SIX years (solitary confinement)the ombudsmen had him moved to a different facility and he is okay. The hospitals have to report every year, last report said one hospital had a person in seclusion for 365 days, nobody including me thought about that, but the hospital only had to report for the year, and not total accumulated time in seclusion. There are several back ups, to prevent it, they all failed. The facility in question, has not been named.

Anyway, did you know that counsellors, psycholigests treating abused kids (even as grown up adults) themselves MUST have counselling in order not to go insane with what they hear? Its a condition of being allowed to practice.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Dec 2, 2009 11:54pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/3120726/Man-shot-son-over-child-sex-admission

you might want to check that out

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Dec 1, 2009 8:20pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Pedophilia is not gay rights... it's a hate crime

I knew I disliked ginsberg for a reason...

I never attacked the book in question, I only questioned the gross reality of the group itself. It's an abomination and that's coming from an atheist.

I knew mainstream gay people make a point to distance themselves from child predators from reading the discussions on some of the films on the prelinger archives about the subject.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Nov 30, 2009 3:09pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

Just in case you weren't aware, and have not done so, delete requests have to be sent to info@archive.org That will take 2-3 days to be actioned, providing they have no backlog of requests, after the recent USA thanksgiving holiday. But if you still have access to that book description editing page, get in now to the associated file manager and manually delete each file, they can all be deleted except for the 2 meta-data files. (tip from the IA, create new folder, drag and drop all files into it, then delete the folder, thats faster than deleting, then confirming the delete, file by file.) I looked at the page, and read your paragraph regarding republishing rights, I have to admit, I would have made the same mistake as you. I am assuming the copyright owners objection related to that once it was on the IA, it would be out in the wild, and lots of people would ignore the copyright owners wishes that it not be redistributed for profit. Earlier this year, I was emailed a PDF of a book by well known Dr Tony Attwood, a comprehensive text book about Asperigers Syndrome. I decided it would be a good upload for the IA, the friend who sent it to me, saw no problem with it going onto the IA. At the time, I had some email contact with Dr Attwood's office about assessments, so I mentioned having the book, and asked if it was okay to go onto the Archive. I was shocked to be told, it was fully protected, and on the market "In Print" Admittedly, before I did upload it, I would have reviewed its copyright notice. My point is, its easy to get caught out, certainly, there are lots of books being scanned and distributed illegally, and no doubt, because it is so easy with software, some books will be having their copyright notices removed, or modified. If in doubt, its always safer to check first with authors and publishers. And one day, people might even modify the contend of a book, to reflect their personal beliefs, or as part of a con/scam. Go and read a copy of George Orwell's book "1984" about how Big Brother was always right, and his Ministry of Truth. Don't try the movie (I think there's at least 2 movies, one being on the IA) as only the book tells you how recent history was being constantly modified to fall in line with current affairs. 1984, never saw today's information technology coming, Big Brother would have a field day, today. The book is still in copyright (? hey Gerry, what is the story there) and I have not see it on the IA, but its a classic, used as a study book in schools, most physical library have a copy, or can obtain a copy. Peter
This post was modified by Time Traveller on 2009-11-30 23:09:58

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Poster: garthus Date: Nov 30, 2009 4:35pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

Peter,

To my knowledge the copyright was never registered; but between 1963 and 1989 (march 1) all the author had to do was place a notice on the text. If he had not, then it would be public domain. Obviously he is not interested in distrbution of his ideas otherwise he would not so strenuously object. My feeelings are good riddance to anyone who thinks their ideas are so great that they need protection. Lets worry about the 95% of the items which are in public domain and which may be dissappearing as we speak.

Gerry

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Poster: garthus Date: Nov 30, 2009 5:15pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: The early homosexual rights movement

Dudeman,

I agree. You have put up some very good materials (at least I think so), unfortunately many people have axes to grind and like to only put up things which support their philosophical positions. I think that ultimately everything should go up; let all ideas compete in the world of information.

Gerry