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Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 2:53am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Previewing musical style, etc |
This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 10:53:12
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Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 3:07am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Previewing musical style, etc |
This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 11:07:42
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 3:35am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | MP3s on the archive. |
This post was modified by Erich on 2003-03-14 11:35:46
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Poster: | Jhudson844 | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 9:15am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
My personal ethic with regard to shows I've taped is along the lines of what bleblac said. I'm just glad the music's getting spread since most of the shows on the archive that I have taped are from bands like Ancient Harmony, Mood Cultivation Project and Perpetual Groove. (and now that Moonshine Still has been added you will see some from those guys when the upload server is fixed). Those bands can use all the exposure they can get. A couple of them have taken my recordings themselves with my blessing and used the mp3s on their websites for audio samples. Always flattered when I see that and certainly never upset about it. If you are going to encode to mp3 you should only do so with soundboard recordings. I've learned this from listening to stuff on my discman that audience recordings encoded to mp3 are completely and entirely unlistenable. In raw .wav format I prefer the sound of an audience recording that captures the energy of the crowd and the true sound of the room. I definitely don't feel that mp3s need to be on the archive at all. There are plenty of mediums for that already with Kazaa/Furthur etc. I don't lose sleep over thinking of the possibility that lossy copies of my recordings are being spread in the trading pool. Responsible traders should be trading .shn-via electronic distribution methods if they have broadband, or via snail mail if not. I understand that some people may only have stand alone audio component burners, but then they shouldn't be trading for unsourced shows and in doing so insure they won't get anything from mp3. If they have a computer and are setting up trades for shows online then they ought to seriously consider shelling out $30 for an external USB burner on rebate if they have no computer burner so that they can start trading .shn. In doing so be more of an active contributer to the trading pool rather than essentially an end user since the stand alone burner person in this day and age is like the burnerless B&P person was a few years back. Tapers invest a lot in their equipment to get the recordings out there, so I don't think it's too much to ask to get folks to help in that effort to buy a computer burner and start trading .shn to help proliferate the recordings unless they are computerless.
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Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:09am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Hey download 1 track in SHN for a sample --- now there is an idea, eh ?
Reply [edit]
Poster: | dgrayshn | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:15am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
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Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:38am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Post Reviews! |
Instead of us wasting our time with this argument, we don't we all spend the time reviewing some shows we've downloaded, since that's supposed to be the way people can tell what they are going to get.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Jonathan Aizen | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:51am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Post Reviews! |
Perhaps having a bio section for each band would be useful - describing the members, the musical genre(s), "similar" artists and so on. Perhaps this section could be searchable too.
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 7:04am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Post Reviews! |
I think thats a great idea, a general page regarding the music type and such. "If you like this artist/group, we recomend:" would be great too. maybe even make it open for discussion, to see fan descriptions, the same way reviews are made for each show.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:41am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Post Reviews! |
Instead of us wasting our time with this argument, we don't we all spend the time reviewing some shows we've downloaded, since that's supposed to be the way people can tell what they are going to get.
good call. It wouldnt be the same, but its at least a help to those that are familiar with the bands already.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Jonathan Aizen | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:05am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
1) Make only portions of several tracks available. This goes along with the idea of these being previews only. No need for the full track.
2) Put a note in the ID3 tag with information on obtaining the full and lossless source. I wouldn't go so far as putting details page URLs in the ID3 because those could conceivaably change. I'd just put in the base URL for the LMA.
I'm not particularly in favor of making them 96kbs, particularly if only a portion of the track is made available. With higher bit-rate MP3s people could use the previews to compare sources, determine audience levels, and so on.
Those are just my thoughts. Feedback sought.
Jon
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Poster: | DianaTrees | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:56am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
I have visited several band sites, but many don't put clips on the Web either. Makes it frustrating.
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Poster: | dgrayshn | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:58am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
I have plenty of shows which I need to convert and add them to the archive. This takes time out of my life but I am doing it because i love it. I certainly feel that something I put in up to half a days work is something I have a say over how it is used. I would also like to point out that some bands are very specific over what type/quality shows they want being spread. I am personally involved with two bands on this archive and 3rd to be added soon. None of these 3 groups want mp3 sourced tracks or shows floating around. But if one was to take a sample track and cut off a litle bit then make that available i think they would be willing to compromise. But i see this becoming a bit too involved because I personally feel each band should be contacted.
but that is just me
-matt
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Poster: | chops11 | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:13am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
whew.. now that i'm done with that everyone have fun arguing :) i support whatever goes.. i like to "preview" a band by downloading a whole show, i don't think either 15 seconds or one track can do them justice anyway.
out like a fat kid in dodgeball
cheers
ed
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Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:32am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
I just think this is an individual decision that should be left up to the taper. I believe we have earned that right, legal or not. Some people seem to disagree with me, and that's fine too. That is the great thing about this country.
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Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 9:49pm |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s and taper rights |
This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-03-15 05:49:06
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Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Mar 15, 2003 2:21pm |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s and taper rights |
To me once a recording is seeded then it enters public domain. Tapers that add things like "don't convert to MP3" in their info files are quite presumptuous, what I (or anyone) does with a seed, freely traded, is no ones business but my (their) own.
I agree the threat of SHN>MP3>AUDIO>WAV>SHN is something to be concerned about but if one has a good info file from reliable traders/tapers then this is a mostly mitigated problem.
With seeds with source info like ?>DAT>?>?>AUDIO CDR>?>SHN then caveat emptor. If it sounds good to you then fine, but for "serious" traders this is a warning sign that any number of problems might exist with the seed.
Tapers definitely do not "own" their seeds once they enter the trading community, if anyone "owns" the seed it is the band. With seeds on archive.org the content is definitely in the public domain and, IMO, it is up to the band and the downloaders to do with as they please.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 15, 2003 9:12pm |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: LMA is <b>not</b> public domain |
No, no, no, this is not the case! The artists here do hold copyrights and have just granted us limited permission to enjoy it here.
I found this useful reference link:
http://www.pdinfo.com/
There's stuff about recordings there, too.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Mar 16, 2003 2:44am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: LMA is <b>not</b> public domain |
This post was modified by kwaved on 2003-03-16 10:44:05
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Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 16, 2003 8:17am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: LMA is <b>not</b> public domain |
This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-16 16:17:32
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 16, 2003 9:36am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: LMA is <b>not</b> public domain |
http://www.pdinfo.com/record.htm
This site details the public domain information regarding a sound recording that is created by the person creating the sound, though. I dont see how it applies to live music recording thats under a very enclosed set of policies.
http://www.copyright.gov/register/sound.html
copywriting the sound recording is to prevent others from claiming ownership of the particular recording and thereby using it for profit. an example would be copywriting my studio recording of my album so i can make sure its never used in a comercial. But as was mentioned this isnt applied to the music on the recording though, so i can make a new version of some songs to use for said comercial if i want. I do not know how the taping policies of the bands would interfier with someone doing this to a live recording, but im almost possitive it would. example, i tape a dmb show, and 'copywrite' it and all. Nissan wants to use Tripping Billies from that show to promote their new Nissan Frathouse SUV. I doubt my 'copywriting' the sound recording will override the bands decision as to whether or not it can be used for said commercial, especialy since these recordings are made under explicit conditions. If i could do that, what stops me from AUD recording the state of the union address and using Bush's voice to promote Budweiser? A record company owning the sound recordings of my first 4 albums, thereby overriding my say on whether it can be used for a greatest hits would be another example of how this copywrite would come to play.
The biggest thing, i think, that seperates these live recordings from these copywrite laws too is that despite them being allowed to be created, theyre still "unautherized" recordings, at least im almost sure theyre still considered such. Again, if it wasnt, what would stop me from aud recording a studio session seperately so i can market through the record company a greatest hits album? that would surely go to court in an instant.
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:35am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
This post was modified by Erich on 2003-03-14 14:35:49
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Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 10:09am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Er, you'll want to reedit that phrase to read, "and that's my working hypothesis"... ;)
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:28am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
The reason i dont like the partial track idea is because if I want to browse for a new artist to listen to, I may not be sold on half the song. I downloaded a few tracks from SPP and UM and didnt like them, but i made that assesment after listening to the whole track. To chop off half or give only a minute or two wouldnt do the song justice, but to cut only a part of the end as sort of a watermark is assinine, IMHO. You can easily compramise and find one or two shorter songs.
As for source comparison, youre right, a higher bitrate would be necessary. But at the same time i would find it necessary to keep the entire song in tact to get a full scope of the comparison. Again, you can just encode a shorter tune or something of the sort.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:31am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:38am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
but see, this is what i mean. What right does the taper have to a show thats not even his own intelectual property and has become public domain through free trade? none, unless im missing some clause somewhere that circumvents the bands ownership. If a taper cant handle 2 song previews made for the sake of source comparison or show browsing, thats just rediculous. Honestly I think a lot of the reason the gigantic ******DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3 OR YOUR TESTICLES WILL WITHER OR YOUR PUSSY WILL ROT AND FALL IN THE TOILET****** messages are put on the txt files are to assert the fact that the taper has a bigger ego than the non tapers. People that understand that their recording is going to get MP3ed for one reason or another, like me sending an MP3 to a friend (uh oh!), dont put the testicle damning caution on their source files or at least append it with the notion that trading MP3s is bad but encoding for personal use is not.
[/rant]
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Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:24am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
You're entitled to your opinion but what you're not entitled to is dictating how someone who spent hours taping, converting, and posting a show for the community to enjoy should allow his tape to be distributed.
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:38am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
You're entitled to your opinion but what you're not entitled to is dictating how someone who spent hours taping, converting, and posting a show for the community to enjoy should allow his tape to be distributed.
please show me how this is done, give me an example, and show me any legal ramifications if i do not adhere to this "copywrite". Im seriously interested. I doubt that the disclaimer holds the same legal bearing as a terms of service agreement, but im very interested to see the process that a taper goes through just to make sure someone cant preview a track on a site dedicated to lossless trading.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 9:50am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Rights and things |
This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 17:50:35
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Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 7:46am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
And I will reiterate, just because something is "free" does not mean it is public domain. Linux is free and it is definitely not public domain. Try to sell Linux or distribute it outside of the GNU GPL and see how quickly you get sued.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 7:59am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
It was mentioned that asking the taper would be a curtosy, and i agree. I dont feel it a necessary one, but its a gesture saying that the fans respect the tapers important role in that shows quality. I feel the line is drawn though when someone claims to have sole rights to how that recording gets traded within the defined perameters of a bands trading policy (as in not resale, which is obviously illegal).
Reply [edit]
Poster: | dgrayshn | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 4:09am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
#1 Taking that stance against tapers.. While you might think tapers dont have any say, they too could perhaps go on *strike*... might sound silly but they are the ones taping the shows they can just stop then you dont have anything to work with now do you.
#2 While I am a taper and I am all for SHN and not MP3. I will say that I dont see a problem with preview tracks as long as the track is not the entire song. Like if 15 seconds are cut off...might seem a bit much but I dont want these tracks showing up on Kazaa for example.
Just my two cents
-m
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Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 4:45am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
thats a rediculous argument though. If a taper is so full of himself that making MP3s for a reason thats logical, rational, and helpful (or just personal for that matter) causes him/her to stop taping, then id rather not deal with that type of taper anyway. The same way im not making light of what they do by degenerating the trade pool, its an insult to the intelligence of the people willing to set up certain perameters on lossy file encoding and willing to educate instead of allienate. Mind you i realize not everyone is saavy and there are those that are computer illiterate to everything outside winamp > mp3, but thats why you educate. Throwing a tantrum and going "on strike" would make me want to not support that taper on principle.
#2 While I am a taper and I am all for SHN and not MP3. I will say that I dont see a problem with preview tracks as long as the track is not the entire song. Like if 15 seconds are cut off...might seem a bit much but I dont want these tracks showing up on Kazaa for example.
if the band is popular enough to show up on kazaa, they will regardless of the precausion you use. Might as well make it of a lower quality (96 or lower) with a note that says where you can download a better quality version of the full set than truncate the MP3. Compramise and put a song that segues seamlessly to another song. it'll sound like its cut, but its really not.
I know as well as you that lossless is the way to go. But if you dont approach the people who use MP3 correctly, it wont do a bit of difference. Whether or not someone accepts, understands, or cares, is not up to you, and "cutting them off" is a good way of making sure they wont learn. There are many bands whos tapes were ruined by MP3 and i understand / accept that, and thats why Im more than willing to show people the better way of handling rcordings... but you ned to educate and not allienate, otherwise it'll have a negative effect in the long run on the community.
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Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:26am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Personally, I am a taper and would definitely not want any portion of my tapes converted to 96 kbps mp3s. However, I wouldn't have a problem with posting 15 second (or so) clips of tracks from my tapes at 192 kbps + for preview purposes. But this is a decision that is up to the individual taper, not anyone else.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 10:03pm |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-03-15 06:03:59
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Poster: | David Nelson | Date: | Mar 15, 2003 6:34am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Don't think of having mp3's on here as a means of distribution, but rather like an audio thumbnail of a show you're intersted in.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Erich | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 6:18am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Personally, I am a taper and would definitely not want any portion of my tapes converted to 96 kbps mp3s. However, I wouldn't have a problem with posting 15 second (or so) clips of tracks from my tapes at 192 kbps + for preview purposes. But this is a decision that is up to the individual taper, not anyone else.
there is nothing that says you have sole rights to how your tape is spread, sorry. You spend lots of money, thats great, and i appreciate that, yeah, but once im told how i have to handle a recording and at what temperature it needs to be outside before i can listen to track 8, i claim bullshit. Sorry, nothings going to change my stance on that, and if that causes folks like you to stop taping then unfortunatly thats your problem and not mine.
If i wanted to preview a track, and you put 15 seconds of an MP3 up for that reason, no matter what the bitrate was, it would do nothing. 15-30 seconds of any phish song can sound exactly the same to me. granted i dont like phish, but trying to sell me on 1/24th of a song isnt the way to go either.
I dont see how your permission is necessary to do anything with the tape, unless you were being directly asked to do something where your doing it would make a difference in the quality of the outcome. I MP3 shows that i get to send to a few friends who wouldnt hear it otherwise, and im part of a lot of communities that send out select mp3s of shows for a taster before the shns are released. I dont see how doing the same thing for a public archive that has the lossless show right next to it is going to do anything negative to anyone, but im sure if you want a written request sheet it can be created and mailed to you with all speed.
This is nothing personal, I just dislike the way that many of the tapers go about attempting to dictate how people should listen to music that doesnt belong to them.
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 4:34am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: MP3s on the archive. |
Reply [edit]
Poster: | Diana Hamilton | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:08am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Bands with women in lineups |
This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 13:08:41
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Poster: | hendge | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 5:06am |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Bands with women in lineups |
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Poster: | homelessjoe | Date: | Mar 14, 2003 9:53pm |
Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Bands with women in lineups |