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Understanding 9/11View Post [edit]
| Poster: | Sinjin | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:07pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Recording gear |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 12:20pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
- IMO a good way to start out if you are serious about it would be something like AT853s > battery box > Sony D8. This seems to be a pretty popular setup, not just for newbie's but for some pretty serious tapers - check out Dave Mallick's Guster recordings from last year or Garrett Bastable's DMB recordings if you don't believe these mics can make great tapes. This whole setup can be had for < 500 bucks if you search the oade board and ebay and buy used ($300 for the D8, $150 for the at853s & batt. box - I've seen these prices posted recently).
- To transfer, you'll need a soundcard with a digital input and you'll want one that doesn't resample the audio (i.e. no soundblaster). I use the Audiowerk2, it cost me $90 new.
- Contrary to what someone else said, 7-pins are still being made by places like core-sound and oade. The oade active cable is very popular but expensive - $150 new, prolly $100 used. The core sound can be had for less than half that.
- This setup is also nice because you can stealth very easily with it, but also use it on a stand as well. If you think you want to spend a little more money, I'd go for something like the Earthworks SR-71s or the AKG 390 series mics, with a UA-5 and/or an MP-2. But now you're talking about spending 100 bucks or so on cables and power for the mics, so you might not want to go that route.
- Also, I disagree with the person who said taping dat is considerably more expensive than MD. Obviously, the JB3 has very little overhead because there are no tapes to buy. I've heard it can be unreliable, but I've also heard that people love it. caveat empor. I bought my Sony D8 DAT recorder used with about 50 hours on it about 3 years ago. After taping dozens of shows, I have only had it eat one tape, and it was because the tape was shit. I wouldn't worry too much about the maintenance, esp. if you buy from someone on the oade boards, most of the sellers there are reputable.
- I strongly recommend not going MD. The tape flipping is obnoxious - believe me you WILL be pissed off when you miss part of a song because you ran out of tape. Also, the a/d in those things leaves something to be desired, IMO
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | thoman8r | Date: | Oct 25, 2004 4:41am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
Just to follow up on my post from last year: I've seen purchased a JB3, and I love it. I definitely think it's a great way to go. I've found it to be very reliable The only problem with it is the pre is basically unusable and the adc leaves much to be desired. If you use an external pre though you can get away without a different adc though and still get a good recording.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | bollbach | Date: | Oct 18, 2003 3:18pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
1. The Oades do still carry the active 7-pin cable but they'll only sell it to you if you buy a deck from them. My understanding is that it's more for patching deck-to-deck, because I use a Sony brand cable to go from my M1 (7-pin out) to my soundcard (optical in), it's the POCDA12P and it might be discontinued but you should be able to get it online.
2. Another good resource for getting set up is Allan Chen's site at http://www.kaiyen.com, click on taping or trading and there are some faqs I found helpful.
Melissa
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Tyler | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:20pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
In my opinion, all you'll ever need (As well as what i've been recording with for a year and a half):
AT831 mics:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=120&item=SP-CMC-2&type=store
Batt box with bass rolloff:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=310&item=SP-SPSB-1&type=store
and a refurbished Sharp Minidisk recorder (I use a Sharp MD-MT15) off ebay. These babies only run $40-60 on ebay and that is all you'll ever need.
If you want true true "Lossless" get a DAT deck, because Mini Disk uses ATRAC compression. It is tiny, but there. I have heard side by side comparisons of the same source but with a DAT deck and a MD deck. The difference is very minimal, and only highly attuned ears can tell the difference.
For me, the notion of dropping several hundred dollars ($300-600) for a DAT deck just wasn't an option. THe mini Disk was perfect because it was small in size and easy to use.
So go for it! Regardless what you use, just be stoked to be there. Enjoy the show first, worry about the recording second. Just be happy you are there at all, and hopefully your recording goes good.
Practice, learn to use your equipment in the dark or with your eyes closed. Mistakes happen, and you will get better. Put those mics in a beanie or a hat to go 'stealth' or splurge for a stand if you are hitting up 'taping OK' bands.
I got into this for the same reasons you are: I hit up local shows several times a week and there is no way anyone else in the audience of 10 is recording, so i figured i should do it myself. After the show, say Hi to the artist and ask for an e-mail address or mailing address so you can send them the recording you made. Most artists are super floored that you even came, let alone invested effort in recording their set. And don't forget to tell them about the archive so you can get them up here and spread those local tunes to everyone in the world.
Hope this helps. If you want more taping suggestions, or details, drop me a line.
Tyler
thuff@ucsd.edu
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:47pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
The difference in sound is indeed minimal and usually not noticeable, but the biggest problem with MD decks for a recording medium is the 74 or 80 minute limit on discs - if the band you are recording plays a great second set over an hour and a half (or if there isn't a setbreak at all) you *will* lose some music unless you're really good at swapping discs between songs. DAT will run up to 180 minutes straight without swapping tapes.
However, those aren't the only choices when it comes to recorders. The Nomad Jukebox 3 might prove to be a happy medium - it's $300 brand new and will get you hours of uninterrupted recording time - plus it doesn't use ATRAC compression.
If you ask me, the place you spend the money is the mics. Good mics make all the difference in the world.
-Brad
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Sinjin | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 12:50am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
So, Lets assume that if I am going to do this, I would do it right - I would go the DAT route...what specifically should I need to get rolling - clearly the DAT unit (models, please? Sony?) and the Mic (again, models?). What then is the mechanism for going from what actually sits on the DAT tape to the computer - I would assume that's probably a USB connection? Then do I have to do anything to get it to SHN format - or is that native within DAT? I think I can get it onto the archive after that...
Again, thanks a lot!
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 2:25am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
Sinjin, most of this info is well documented in the info files of the recordings hosted on this website. Most of them have full source info (what mics, a/d converters, and recording deck was used) and full transfer info (what playback, interface, and recording software was used).
Your best bet is to read through some of the info files, and then read up on the manufacturer websites regarding the features to figure out which one is best for you.
Here, this link might be another good source of info: http://www.moelinks.com/random/source/
I'm not trying to shrug off your question, it's just that it would take a book to explain most the intricacies of why you want a specific model over another...
Just one last piece of advice. Unless you're ready to drop a lot of money, don't go with a DAT recorder. Between blank media, batteries, performance enhancements, cables etc... they will suck a ton of money out of you. Plus, if you ask me, the hard disk recorders (laptops and JB3 type appliances) will be replacing DAT in the years to come. --- Don't get me wrong, DAT really performs well as a field recorder, but you really end up paying well for it.
-Brad
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Sinjin | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 1:23am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Nomad Jukebox 3 |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Tyler | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 2:15am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | NJ3 and DAT's |
(This section was copied from a post a bay area taper put up on www.benharper.net in may)
if you are interested in quality first and price second your options break down in the following order
this is for "stealth" type small/portable gear...computer based and stand type gear is a whole different breakdown
1. Sony PCM-M1 DAT (pro model-no SCMS) -- ~$725
2. Sony D100 DAT (same as PCM-M1 without SCMS override) -- ~$725
3. Sony D8/D7 DAT (older generation "consumer" DAT recorders) -- ~$650
4. Sharp "High End" MD recorders (MD-MT770/MD-MT877/etc) -- starts near $225
----better designed for recording than the sony's; support MDLP mode
5. Sony "High End" MD recorders -- starts near $225?
----some support "on the fly changing of recording levels (an essential feature)
6. Sharp "Low End" MD recorders (MD-MT15/MD-MT90/etc) -- low $100 or less
----no support for MDLP mode, support for on the fly levels -- solid, affordable
7. Sony "Low End" MD recorders (most) -- low $100 or less
----no support for MDLP, no support for "on the fly" levels
8. Creative Nomad recorders..these can record in raw wav format, but they are a pain in the a$$ to use and are REAL flakey for recording...avoid
----
I don't understand it fully, but with DAT's, there are a few ways to get the tunes into your computer. One is to actually buy a DAT drive that you put your DAT's into in your computer, and transfer them in that way. Another is to get a 7 pin cable that allows you to connect to your optical soundcard optically. I again don't know much about it since I don't record with DAT, but from what I have heard, they have stopped making these cords and are getting harder and harder to find, mostly on e-bay for large $.
----
My opinion, since you have the money for a DAT is to not go for a dat and go for the Nomad Jukebox 3. $300 brand new, and also get the lithium 'long-life' battery. I am not sure if it is packaged with it, but i think it is only purchased separate and is about $80. It is steep but it is really needed. Without it your recording time on a fully charge will only be maybe an hour or maybe 2/2.5 if you're pushing it. that can be cutting it close for a long show. The lithium battery on full charge i have heard to get 10 hours of recording time. perfect for festivals and the like.
The other great thing about the NJ3 is yes, you can record it .mp3, and yes, you should avoid that in the live music world, since it is a lossy format. BUT you can also record directly to the unit in uncompressed .wav format. This is the option you will want to use. Plus, the newwest jukebox (the one you want to get) has a large storage area (20 GB? i think?) so you will be able to record many shows without fearing it to be 'full'.
Transfers are simple, fast, and USB based. The recording is already in a file form, so just USB connect it, transfer the files and you're done. With DAT and MD recordings, you have to open soundforge, or another audio recording program and 'record' while you play the recording into your computer at 1X. Takes some time.
I do know some people who have been DAT tapers and moved to the Nomad and have never looked back. Not one problem, not one complaint, they love it! but i do know some poeple that have not liked it. I higly suggest it for ease of use, size (about the size of a portable CD player), and just overall good times with it. If you want to go for a DAT deck, hopefully others with more experience can help you with that area, but if you want to hear some good NJ3 recordings, look around in the april/may and onward 2003 Jason Mraz shows. Shows by Jon K were mostly done on his NJ3 (check source info on details pages) and you can sample what it sounds like.
As far as mics go, I still say the audio technica 831 mics are the highest quality for the smalest price. $119 is so much cheaper then Shoeps or any other $2000 pair of mics, and the quality is so great with the AT831's. It is the only pair i have, and I have made some near soundboard qualiyt recordings with them. One recording is being used for a commercial release by the artist.
The point is, start with the at831 mics and focus on your skills, your position in the show, technique. Expensive mics in the hands of a newbie can still produce shit. If you get better and want to upgrade, mics are where to put the money. The deck is still just a deck. My opinion is to get the Nomad.
Happy Taping! It is a fun world. :)
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 4:20am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | common ground |
The NJ3 is an excellent starter solution, as for mics well I personally would stay away from the AT series I do agree that you can always upgrade your equipment, no need to spend $5K to start if you aren't sure that taping is for you. There is a very distinct subculture of taping, etc that isn't for everybody {LOL}
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| Poster: | datgeek | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 11:53am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Mic/Pre/Deck |
JB3 + Extra Internal Battery >> works just fine and cheaper than a used DAT deck...
the Octava 012 mics can be found at several "mass music retailers" for about 100$ each or less, much better than the AT models
Pre-amp
Edirol UA-5 with the Oade digital Mod
<<400$
with this setup
A:) you already have an optical output that the JB3 Needs as well as 24bit > computer if you want to go that route in the futur
B:) you can easily upgrade the mics later when you want to
C:) you can have the accual Pre-amp part of the UA-5 upgraded from oade as well..
D:) if needed this unit "can" be stealthed (I dont stealth anything but it was mentioned)
E:) with the JB3 instead of a DAT there is NO transfer problems because the file is already in a WAV format..
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | TwirlyJet | Date: | Sep 7, 2004 9:16am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: jukebox 3 |
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| Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 2:18am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Nomad Jukebox 3 |
Here's a sample: http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=6163
The KM140's are *really* nice mics. :)
-Brad
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | alienbobz | Date: | Oct 14, 2003 2:27am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Nomad Jukebox 3 |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | TwirlyJet | Date: | Sep 7, 2004 9:15am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Nomad Jukebox 3 |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | chops11 | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:36pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
cheers
ed
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Tyler | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:41pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | My Opinion. |
DAT does have some very good aspects that Mini-Disks do not:
DAT decks use tapes with zero compression. What you get on playback has no compression, versus the small compression with a MD (ATRAC).
DAT decks use tapes that will record for several hours, so no 'tape-flip' is needed. MD's only record either 74 or 80 minutes per-disk, so you will have to watch the clock and switch in a new disk when the old one is up, and try and do it as soon as one song ends, and try and get it going again before the next song starts. I admit this is hard and nerve racking. A simple solution is to buy 2 MD decks, and when you are nearing the end on one disk, start recording on your second deck (with a fresh blank in it) so all you have to do is move the plug from the batt box from one deck to the other. This takes 1-2 seconds instead of the 20-30 seconds of a MD flip.
But those better aspects of a DAT deck do come at a price. I was not exagerating: It is very much more expensive then a MD deck. BUT if you have the cash, go for it! I wish I had the money for a DAT deck, but I do not. Also, be very weary of buying used DAT decks off eBay. DAT decks require their heads to be cleaned and taken care of, lots of maintance. Often the 'cheap' or 'what a deal!' DAT decks of eBay are decks with many, many hours of recording on those heads, and you as the buyer will have to invest in another $100 or so to fix it back up. DAT decks I have heard to be finiky machines. MD decks, however, when they are done, they are done. Refurbished decks work just as good as new ones, and the two that i have (both $50 off ebay) work like a dream.
Just one more word then i'll quit yapping: If you do go MD, get a Sharp. They support 'on-the-fly' level changes, where you can adjust the levels (how much of the signal is being let in) while you are recording. Sony MD recorders require you to pause recording, then change levels, then start again. This is bad times.
Overall, whatever you record with, at least you are doing it! That is the main part. Remember what Tenacious D said in those early HBO sketches? "Always record! Always record!" If i had only $30 to spare, i would go to Radioshack and get one of those rectangular audio cassett recorder / playback decks. You just put a regular large cassett in there, and hit 'record'. The sound may not be perfect, but it is cheap and easy.
In my opinion, the cheapest way to go to get quality recordings is the above mic and batt box and a sharp md deck.
Welcome to the world of taping! Beware, it is addictive.
Tyler
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:51pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Tyler | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:54pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
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| Poster: | kwaved | Date: | Oct 13, 2003 12:57pm |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
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| Poster: | Cabbage | Date: | Oct 16, 2003 8:29am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
Get a laptop and a nice USB/FireWire/PCMCIA sound card. No blanks needed while you record and you can record for hours depending on the size of your hard drive.
I use a 12" Apple PowerBook with a Griffin PowerWave which connects to USB.
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| Poster: | Brad Leblanc 2 | Date: | Oct 17, 2003 5:35am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
Awesome.
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| Poster: | Cabbage | Date: | Oct 20, 2003 6:52am |
| Forum: | etree | Subject: | Re: Recording gear |
This one will be for the "bootleggers" since it's so small.
http://core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html
