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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jun 27, 2010 4:01pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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DDP v.8 |
I think this run between September and December ‘72 is amongst the very best they ever made. Listening to as much fall ’72 as I have lately, I have changed my opinion on many levels with regards to the band. This particular show I had heard, but not many times until the GEMS remaster came out in May. Out of the four shows they did in December, I think this one stands out. The 10th is brilliant and the 15th and 31st are excellent, but on the strength of this particular Dark Star it gets the nod. I think this one is absolutely unique in several ways. First, you don’t just get ten to twenty minutes of unintelligible feedback in the middle. This one Garcia is on a mission and seems to know exactly where he is going the entire time. Jazzy as hell all the while giving and taking with Phil. Bobby is no slouch either. This one does slow down in spots like they all do, but they never really lose me. Stunning performance of a defining song.
The entire show is incredible with an out of body Dark Star. The whole first set is a masterpiece and the He’s Gone is long and unique. This is one of those I had to relisten to several times to make sure it is as good as I think it is. It is that good. OK, so I think you get now why I picked this one….
This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-06-27 23:01:30
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Poster:
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ralphk |
Date:
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Jun 29, 2010 8:42pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Great job on the covers. Is there a list of all of your picks (non-picks)?
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Poster:
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dr. flashback |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 3:01am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Dear Skobud,
thanks for the mind bending graphic! Had to re-light to really get into that, ha! Did you do the "Dick didn't pick" label yourself?? Great idea!! Love the concept.
I have long been a promoter of this 3 night Winterland run.
They may be the most overlooked shows of 1972. Sure, a few weak spots. And the sound quality is sketchy here and there, or missing songs, but edited and combined into a Box Set, I think these night could, dare I say, rival the Winterland 1973 Box Set.
The 12/12/show is my favorite, with the stellar He's Gone.
But the 11th is no slouch.
Nice pick, dude. The Dark Star is a lost, buried gem of a Star. Also check out the Dark Star from 12/15 into Morning Dew. Intense !!
Dr. Flashback:-)
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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 6:34am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Thanks for the feedback on the cover Dr....The whole idea behind this fractal was Dark Star. Here is a link to the first Seven if you wanna take a look....
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=306633
Im gonna definately listen to 12/12 again.
Everything I make is original. Obviously the idea is borrowed, but all of the graphics I create myself. Peace
This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-06-28 13:34:56
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Poster:
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grendelschoice |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 8:25am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
I also loved the clever cover (I did a double take, thinking there was a DP I had missed), and especially appreciate the recommendation of a DS that doesn't devolve into screeching feedback.
I recently posted asking for suggestions of pre-1980 DarkStars that maintained a more melodic, jazzy feel and avoided the kind of "deep space" rumbling that make me one of those you mentioned that get turned off by the tune.
Cliff recommended the excellent 10/31/71 from DP4 and that fit the bill nicely, but I'm always looking for others and will check this one out.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 11:42am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
It might be just me but I can't understand why people would want or expect Dark Star to be more conventional to suit their tastes when it's essence is improvisational exploration.If you don't like dissonant or lengthy pieces,why not listen to a different song rather than expect a version that is more to your liking.It's tiresome to hear people say that would be really good if they would just stop all that brilliant improvisational jamming,play some nice calm music and by all means shorten it to something fitting for my miniscule attention span.That's what all the other songs are for.That is not feedback on the 72'-74 Dark Star's it is Jerry and the band playing very serious music,not noise made by electrical incongruities.That is insulting to the talents of the players involved.I know I'm not alone in the more dissonant and twisted the better and that's what Dark Star Playin' and the Other One are for.
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Poster:
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grendelschoice |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 12:59pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Have to agree to disagree. I don't mind at all the improv flights of jamming that charcterize most sections of Dark Star, but I find it hard to call the seriously dissonant, atonal feedback "scary" sections of DS anything other than just that--loud, annoying noise.
Look, it's part subjective to be sure...but as a "for example", I love everything about the first 18 minutes of the famous 11/11/73 Winterland DS, up until Jerry sings the fist verse...but then there's a bunch of Phil hitting loud bass notes against nothing else, followed by feedback noises (there really is nothing else to call it--after all, why do you think on 'Live/Dead' there's actually a track CALLED "feedback"--fact is, sometimes that's what they played...) and to me, that's not great improv jamming--it's just noise.
I'm not saying that's not part of what the band meant for Dark Star--the song says , in fact, to "dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes", and I don't deny them their right to play a musical interpretation of that cosmic conflagration...but it is a conscious choice to do so on the '72-74 versions that I don't care for.
later versions did away with it altogether in favor of the more peaceful musical groove (12/31/78, 7/13/84 just to name 2), and a few examples exist as well from the pre-1980 says...I simply want to seek those out rather than spend 10 minutes listening to the boys sound like a bad parody of "Spinal Tap" doing their "free form improv" in front of a "festival crowd" when they tried out their "new direction" openeing for the puppet show.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 2:49pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Far be it from me to presume to tell anyone what they should or should not like,but to make somewhat demeaning and what I feel are misleading statements about some of the bands best work in their best era deserved addressing.As from what I took from your response Grendel,is the parts you like are improv jamming and what you don't like is noise.Well to each his own but I don't find that to be a very enlightened perspective,or at all an actuality.As for what they did on the post 74' versions of Dark Star is of little consequence since the bands talent for that level of musical expression had totally evaporated into a haze of heroin,Heniken's and disinterest.For some of us those atonal,dissonant forays in Dark Star,Playin' and the Other One are what the band is truly all about.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 4:50pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
In response to why I think there is a track on Live/Dead called Feedback,to compare what the band did in the 60's with feedback and how they on occasion used it in their more freewheeling jams in the early 70's is not a logical comparison.There is a track on the album and many instances in the 60's of the guitarists forcing their instruments to feedback and all 3 of them making music of the resultant sounds ,that is not quite the same as Phil or Jer playing around with some feedback noises for a bit during an extensive improvisation,what I would call that is music not noise.
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Poster:
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grendelschoice |
Date:
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Jun 29, 2010 5:24am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Not to get into a whole "thing" with you here, but it's hard to understand how you can say 'to each his own', and be upset that I've disparaged with 'misleading' statements the band's music re: parts of DS's from 72-74 when you then write a blanket judgment statement like this:
"...As for what they did on the post 74' versions of Dark Star is of little consequence since the bands talent for that level of musical expression had totally evaporated into a haze of heroin,Heniken's and disinterest."
That's pretty insulting and many here would argue unfair and misleading about the band's post 1974 output, DarkStar or otherwise...I would say the Winterland New Years '78 DarkStar stands up quite well and I doubt anyone who was there for the Berkeley '84 DS encore complained about a lack of interest...ditto the DS's that were revived w/Branford around 1990 and continued with fine contributions from Hornsby in 1991.
If you're offended that I don't like the dissonance that (in my view) mar sections of otherwise brilliant '72''74 Darkstars, that's fine...but to go on and dismiss the rest of the band's post 74 output shows a real and unfair bias the belies the facts. (not to mention that the band did many a drug prior to 1974 and Jerry himself was quoted often as saying some of those early shows were among the band's worst as a result.)
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jun 29, 2010 10:24am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
First of all I am neither upset nor offended by your opinions on the music we discussed since it makes no difference whatsoever to me.As for the comments about misleading and demeaning they were referring to another poster not you.As for the post 74' Dark Stars to compare that lot of lame shit to the brilliance that was pre-74' is laughable and not worthy of discussion.
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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jun 30, 2010 5:26am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Jerlouvis
I am assuming you are talking about me and my use of "unintelligible feedback" again. I already explained what I meant to you once already. I'm not sure why you are now saying my post was "misleading and demeaning". Take a step back and read your own posts, you are taking my use of semantics in describing Dark Star waaaay to seriously. My opinion is not a reflection on you in any way. If you read what I wrote you will see we are in agreement, not at odds.
Perhaps we can agree that this is a great show and leave it at that?
This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-06-30 12:26:40
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jul 19, 2014 1:58pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2014-07-11 20:20:59
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2014-07-19 20:56:04
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2014-07-19 20:58:44
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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jul 1, 2010 5:09am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
No worries jerlouvis. I agree with you for the most part about post 74 GD. I really dont listen to much. Peace.
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Poster:
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grendelschoice |
Date:
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Jun 29, 2010 1:07pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
It's ALL worthy of discussion--it's the Dead!
Nothing wrong w/having varying viewpoints...I was listening to the Darkstar from 12/11/72 today and just as I suspected...I loved about half of it, and found the rest unlistenable.
And if you go and listen to that 12/31/78 Darkstar objectively and w/an open mind, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Poster:
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Reade |
Date:
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Jun 27, 2010 11:23am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
I have thought this to be the single most underrated Dark Star for years. Nice choice. Oh, and the Stella Blue it drops into is sublime. Roughly 45 minutes here of music that;s about as good as GD music gets, for my money.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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Jun 27, 2010 12:06pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
They played 5 shows in Dec.72' you left out 12/12,a night on which they played very good versions of Dark Star,Playin' and the Other One.I would like you cite a few examples of Dark Star in which they play "10-20 minutes of unintelligible feedback",because I have listened to every Dark Star on the archive(pre-1980)multiple times and have not found a single passage to be unintelligible,never mind 10-20 minute chunks.
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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jun 27, 2010 3:59pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Obviously you have a problem with my use of "unintelligible feedback"...Thats fine, but my point was many stars from 72-74,in my opinion, have so much feedback-spacey-rumblings that they lose people. Thats not to say I dont like it. I was saying I thought this one was different in that it is still 34 minutes yet it does not really slow down enough to bore even the most impatient person. It definately has some creepy feedback moments, but Garcia seems to bust out of each one of them just in time. There is direction that is palpable, and it is one of my very favorite. That is all I was saying.
This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-06-27 22:59:18
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Poster:
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Jim F |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 3:09am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
I completely understand what you are saying. This is not limited to Dark Stars, but also a number of Other Ones as well. Some of these performances do away with the more thematic or structured jamming and head into deep space territory more than others. I don't generally refer to it as "unintelligable" or otherwise lacking in terms of desirability, but I get your point. Some Dark Stars tend to drift into that "noisy" territory for quite some time, and I like that sort of thing, before building into more thematic, lyrical jamming. 5/18/72 is somewhat of a good example of that. I think the Other One from 11/25/73 is similar as well (I think that is the date, the one where they do the Other One for about 5 minutes, then head into Bobby McGee, then into a deep space for a good 10+ minutes). Other Stars like 2/15/73 stay pretty much on course and maintain a discernable tempo or structure. There are many examples of both, obviously, but basically I'm just agreeing that I understand your notion that sometimes the more multilayered Stars and Other Ones often contain more dissonant passages that can "lose" people who don't care as much for that sort of jamming. I personally love it, as 72-74 (and late 71) is probably my most listened to/most loved period of the band (though I am also a big 67-69 freak, but to me that isn't even really the same band in terms of show structure as well as approach towards the jamming). It is a type of jamming specific to the era where you get so many textures and layers in one song alone that you do not find in the 76-95 range.
This post was modified by Jim F on 2010-06-28 10:09:08
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 12:24pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Yeah, 11/23/73 has that big space (which comes before Bobby McGee) - the 10/25/73 Dark Star is another example where Phil decides to take over with the feedback bombs from hell - and of course Dec '73 is full of those.
Closer in date to our DDP, the 11/19/72 Dark Star is one of the spaciest ever (very meandering) - and 11/26/72 also has long stretches of goopy madness.
(The next Star from 2/15/73, as I recall, goes right into a nice Phil solo after the verse, so we lose the usual space-jam.)
I would've thought the 12/11/72 Dark Star has enough weird space to scare off the timid. The more the better, I say! It's certainly a very 'heavy' Star. I'd say the big 12/31/72 jam is the most "accessible" of the month, though the 12/15/72 Truckin'>Star is also quite beautiful. And the Playing in the Bands from this month are totally warped-out versions.
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Poster:
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Skobud |
Date:
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Jun 28, 2010 5:48am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: DDP v.8 |
Excellent point Jim...I would also throw in the obvious Playin'(72-74) and sometimes Eyes(73-74) as well..Many of those exploratory jams from the same time frame end up in some strange places for sure. Its no coincidence that I hold the entire time frame(fall '72- end of '74) in very high regard.....Jammed out DS, TOO, Playin'and Eyes are probably my favorite things about the band. I also carry a heavy bias for 68-74. Peace.
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