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Full text of "Leo M. Frank, Plaintiff in Error, vs. State of Georgia, Defendant in Error. In Error from Fulton Superior Court at the July Term 1913. Brief of Evidence 1913."

Visit www.LeoFrank.org 
In the Supreme Court of Georgia 

FALL TERM, 1913 

LEO M. FRANK 
PLAINTIFF IN ERROR 

VS. 

STATE OF GEORGIA 

DEFENDANT IN ERROR 

In Errorfrom Fulton Superior Court 
at the July Term, 1913 

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE 



INDEX 

A 

Accidents in Metal Room 

PAG 

Employees' hands cut often 133 

Particular instances 133 

Floors not washed or cleaned 134 

Hands dressed in office 133 

Pass by dressing room 133 

Adams, J. Q. 

Made photographs of Selig home, and factory (see pictures) 150 

Albert, O. D 169 

Frank's character good 169 

Knew Frank two years 169 

At Cornell 169 

Professor of Machine Designs, Cornell 169 

Anderson, A. N 147 

Frank's bank book and cancelled checks identified 147 

Defense Exhibits 50, 51 298 

His bank balance stated 148 

Anderson, W . F 39 

April 26th 

Answers phone call to factory 40 

3:30 a. m., tried to call Frank by phone 40 

Got no answer 40 



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Lee, Newt 

Body of deceased, carried officers to 40 

Blood on underclothes and body 40 

Wound on head 40 

Asher, S. L 242 

Heard man on car (Kendley) say," They ought to hang the damn 

Jew," referring to Frank 242 

Atkinson, Miss Laura 

Dalton, C. B., she knew slightly 135 

Never met him at Busy Bee Cafe, or walked to factory, or home 

with him 135 

Hopkins, Daisy, Mrs. 

D id notknow 135 

[i] 
B 

Bailey, Gordon (Snowball) 136 

April 25 th 

Did not see Frank talk to Conley 136 

Character for veracity bad 120 

Conley, Jim 

Has seen him reading newspapers 136 

Never saw him guarding doors 136 

Frank, Leo M. 

Never saw him with women in office 136 

Saturdays 

Frank never asked Conley to return on 136 

Barnes, Miss Sarah 172 

Frank's character good 172 

Barrett, R . P 26 

Hair seen on machine 27 

Metal department searched 27 

Pay envelope found 27 

Reward hoped for and worked for 137 

Spots found 26 

Bauer, R . L 136 

Saturdays 

Worked at factory, summer 1909 and 1910, and some Saturdays 

since 136 

Frank's office 

At, on Saturdays 136 

Frank, Schiff, Holloway, office boy there 136 

Never saw any women there 136 

Beard, Emma (e) 136 

April 26th 

Telephone call for Schiff, sounded like a boy's voice, and said, 

"Tell Mr. Schiff that Mr. Frank wants him at the office" 122 

Schiff sent word he would come 122 

Schiff went back to sleep 122 



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Telephone call for Schiff again by same voice, 1 1 o'clock a.m., 

same message 122 

Time, how fixed 122 

Schiff sleep Saturdays and holidays 122 

Servant to Schiff 122 

Beavers, J. L 43 

Saw spot thought to be blood 43 

Did not know whether blood or not 43 

[ii] 

Benedict, S. 0., Pres. State Board of Health 229 

Black, John R 17 

April 28th, arrested Frank 17 

Bloody shirt found at Newt Lee's house at 9:00 a. m., on 29th 19 

Coroner's Inquest 

Frank answered questions readily 18 

Factory examined Sunday 19 

Frank, Leo M. 

Heard phone conversation between Frank and Starnes 17 

Safe at factory easily opened by Frank, 27th 19 

Lee, Newt 

Bloody shirt found 19 

Frank and witness talk to Lee at police station 18 

Undertaker's 

Frank and witness saw body at 17 

Frank did not know her by name 17 

Said he knew few employees by name but thought he had 

paid this girl off Saturday 17 

Blueprint, from which model made 

Defense Exhibit 87 303 

Branch, Harlee 139 

Conley, Jim 139 

Said he had never seen mesh bag 139 

Said it took him thirty-five minutes after going up-stairs before 

he got out of building, April 26th 139 

Said that he finished at 1:30 p. m. and then went out 139 

Said that L. Quinn got to factory about 12 o'clock, April 26th, 

and stayed eight or nine minutes 139 

Story of, to detectives, heard by 139 

Tragedy explained by, for detectives at factory 140 

Whether Conley could read 140 

Conley read newspapers 140 

Folded papers after reading 140 

Brent, T. Y 241 

Kendley, George, bitter toward Frank 241 

Took part of Conley in factory experiments after tragedy 242 

Butler, R . P 148 

Metal Room 

Doors, wooden, with windows 148 



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Can see in, with doors closed 148 

Glass in, 15 x 18 inches 148 

Six feet wide 148 

Floors very dirty 148 

[iii] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence iii 1913 

Campbell, Wade 105 

April 26th 

9:30 a. m., reached factory 106 

Frank working at time 106 

9:40 a. m., left factory, had not seen Conley at all 106 

Conley, Jim 

Not at factory, 26th, when Campbell there 106 

Reading, Campbell has seen Conley 106 

Writing, Campbell has seen Conley 106 

Frank never talked with deceased 106 

Spots all over metal room 106 

White, Mrs. J. A., told Campbell about seeing unknown negro sit- 
ting by stairs April 26th about 12:30 p. m 106 

Witness subpoenaed to Dorsey's oice 106 

Carson, Miss Irene 174 

Frank's character good 174 

Knew him 15 months 174 

Never met Frank for immoral purpose 174 

Carson, M iss Rebecca 117 

April 25 th 

Paid off 5:30 p. m 118 

April 26th 

2:20 to 2:25 p. m., saw Frank at Rich's store 118 

Frank spoke to her there 118 

2:50 p. m., saw Frank enter Jacobs' Pharmacy 118 

Whitehall and Alabama Street store 118 

Time fixed how 118 

April 28th 

Conley, Jim, conversation with 118 

"Where were you Saturday, were you in factory?" 1 118 

'I was so drunk I don't know where I was nor what I did" '... 118 

Conley not suspected at this time 118 

"Mr. Frank is just as innocent as an angel" 118 

Conley not suspected then 118 

"The murderer will be the negro Mrs. White saw sitting on 

the box at the foot of the stairs" 118 

Effect of this statement 118 

Told her mother about Conley's statements 118 

And also N. V. Darley 118 

Fourth floor, works on, at factory 1 17 

Forelady of sorting department 1 17 

Has 13 to 15 girls under her 117 

Never went into dressing room with Frank 223 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

[iv] 

Carson, Mrs. E. M 118 

April 29th 

9:00 to 10:00 a. m., Frank on fourth floor 1 19 

Frank did not whisper to Conley 1 19 

Did not ask employees to stick to him 119 

Said the tragedy was deplorable 119 

Blood spots 

Common in and near dressing room 1 19 

From finger cuts 119 

From menstruation 119 

Never saw Frank drinking in office 1 19 

Castro, L. M 154 

Distances to factory from 

Hunter and Broad Streets, 11/ minutes 154 

Marietta and Forsyth Sts., 4 ' minutes 154 

Whitehall and Hunter Streets, 3 1/3 minutes 154 

Walking at moderate gait 154 

Cato, Miss Myrtice 223 

Says she saw Miss Rebecca Carson go into dressing room with 

Frank 223 

Other ladies on floor at time 223 

Their names not given 223 

Chambers, Philip 132 

Conley, Jim 

Sometimes swept Saturdays 133 

Witness never saw him watch door 133 

Dalton, C. B. 

Never saw him at factory 133 

Darley, N. V. 

Gave orders to all sweepers not to sweep after noon 133 

Frank, Leo M. 

Never saw him familiar with women 133 

Never saw him speak to deceased 133 

Office boy at factory December, 1912, to March, 1913 132 

Saturdays at factory 

1:30 to 2:00 p. m. at dinner 132 

4:30 p. m. at factory, until 132 

Never saw Conley or any one watch door 132 

Schiff helped Frank on 132 

Wife of Frank sometimes with him on 132 

[v] 

Character of Leo M. Frank good 

Misses Annie Osborne, Rebecca Carson, Maude Wright, Corinthia 

Hall, Annie Howell, Lillie M. Goodman, Velma Hayes, Jennie 

Mayfield, Ida Holmes, Willie Hatchett, Minnie Smith, Marjorie 

McCord, Georgia Denham, Zilla Spivey, Minnie Foster, Mary 

Pirk, Julia Fuss, Mesdames Ella Thomas, 0. Jones, M. W. Carson, 

Dora Small 221 



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All employees at factory 221 

Misses Mollie Blair, Ethel Stewart, Cora Cowan, Lizzie Word, 

Bessie White, Grace Atherton, Mrs. Barnes, B. D. Smith 220 

All worked on fourth floor 220 

Never heard of any wrongdoing of Frank 221 

Never met Frank for immoral purposes* 221 

Charles Lee, N. V. Darley, F. Ziganki, A. C. Holloway, R. P. But- 
ler, Joe Stelker 221 

All employed at factory 221 

D. I. Mac In tyre, B. Wildauer, Mrs. Dan Klein, Alex Dittler, Dr. J. 

E. Sommerfield, F. G. Schiff, Al Guthman, Joseph Gershon, P. D. 
McCarley, Mrs. M. W. Meyer, Mrs. David Marx, Mrs. A. L. Harris, 
M. S. Rice, L. H. Moss, Mrs. L. H. Moss, Mrs. Joseph Brown, E. E. 
Fitzpatrick, Emil Dittler, Win. Bauer, Miss Helen Loeb, Al Fox, 
Mrs. Martin May, Julia V. Boehm, Mrs. Mollie Rosenbaum, M. H. 
Silverman, Mrs. L. Sterne, Chas. Adler, Mrs. R. A. Sonn, Miss Ray 
Klein, A. J. Jones, L. Einstein, C. J. Bernard, J. Fox, Marcus Loeb, 
Fred Heilbray, Milton Klein, Nathan Coplan, Mrs. J. E. Sommer- 
field 221 

All residents of Atlanta 221 

Have known Frank ever since he came to Atlanta 221 

Alfred L. Lane, Brooklyn; Philip Nash, Ridgewood, N. J.; Richard 
A. Wright, New York; Harry Lewis, Brooklyn; Herbert Lasher, 
New York; John W. Todd, Pittsburg; Professors C. D. Albert and 

J. E. Vanderhoef, Cornell University 168, 169 

All knew Frank at Cornell University, or Pratt Institute, 

or both 168, 169 

V. H. Kriegshaber, M. F. Goldstein, Dr. David Marx, R. A. Sonn, 
Arthur Heyman, Mrs. H. Glogowski, Mrs. Adolph Montag, Mrs. 

J. 0. Parmelee 169, 170 

Misses Ida Hays, Eula May Flowers, Opie Dickerson, Sarah 
Barnes, Irene Jackson, Bessie Fleming, Irene Carson; lMesdames 

Emma Clark Freeman, Mattie Thompson, J. J. Wardlaw 171-174 

All employed at factory 171-174 

A. D. Greenfield, John Finley, John A. Jones, Isaac Haas. 143, 147,164 
Special examination by New York Life Insurance Company in 

1912, and results 164 

[vi] 

Character of Leo M. Frank-Continued 

Witnesses attacking Frank's character 

Misses Myrtice Cato, Maggie Griffin, Marie Carst, Nellie Pettis, 

Mary Davis, Estelle Winkle, Carrie Smith; Mesdames C. D. 

Donegan, H. R. Johnson, Mary E. Wallace 222 

All former employees at factory 222 

Clarke Woodenware Company 

On first floor of factory; door to, not locked; nailed up, but found 

broken open just after the tragedy 77, 80 

State Exhibit A (243) does not show 98 

Coleman, J. W., conversation with McWorth 233 



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Coleman, Mrs. J. W 1 

April 26th 

1 1 :45 a. m., last saw deceased in life 1 

Had eaten cabbage and bread at 1 1 :30 a. m. 

Deceased carried silver mesh bag 1 

Conley, Jim 52 

Character bad 120, 121, 220 

Criminal record of 63, 134 

State's Exhibit T 251 

Coplan, Nathan 
Thanksgiving, 1912 

8:00 to 10:00 p. m., Frank at dance 138 

D 

Dalton, C.B 50 

Basement of factory 

Has been in, with women 51 

Could not say that Frank knew this 50 

Conley, Jim, known to Dalton 50 

Character of, bad 

Impeached by certain witnesses 136 

Sustained by others 221 

Frank's office 

Women in 50 

Hopkins, Mrs. Daisy 

Testimony as to 51 

Darley, N . V 32 

April 26th 

8:20 a. m ., at factory 32 

9:40 a. m ., at factory 32 

[vii] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence vii 1913 

Darley, N. V. -Continued 

Clarke Woodenware Company 

Door to, found broken open just after the tragedy 75 

Conley, Jim 
April 26th 

Darley did not see, at factory 75 

April 28th 

Excited and nervous; looked most suspicious to Darley 76 

Excitement in factory after tragedy 38 

Financial sheet 

Seen by him on Frank's desk 33 

Usually completed after 5:30 p. m. on Saturdays 33 

Frank, Leo M. 

April 27th, no scratches on 35 

Nervous many times and for various causes at factory 36 

Witness says Frank never spoke to deceased 37 

Gantt, J. M. 

At factory 3 or 4 times after discharge 33 



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Hired all the help 76 

Hopkins, Mrs. Daisy 

Never knew her 75 

Night watchman 

White, until Newt Lee hired 76 

Paint all over factory 77 

Saturdays 

Darley accustomed to leave at 12 in., and return 5 to 6 p. m .. 75 

Frank worked on 76 

Usually Denham there to clean motor 76 

Spots all over factory 33, 35 

Denham , Harry 108 

April 25 th 

Paid off 108 

April 26th, returned to factory to work on machinery 108 

7:30 a. in., reached factory 108 

11:15 a. in., Mrs. May Barrett came to 4th floor 109 

11:15 a. m., went down to have Holloway do some work 109 

12:00 to 3:00 p. in., at work on machinery 108 

12:30 p. m., Mrs. White came to see Arthur White 109 

12:50 p. in., Frank came up, first time 109 

3:00 p. m., Frank came to 4th floor and asked Denham and White 

how they were getting on 109 

[viii] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence viii 1913 

Denham, Harry-Continued 

They were washing at the time 109 

3:10 p. m„ White and Denham left 109 

They saw Frank in office at work 109 

White borrowed $2.00 from Frank 109 

Whole building open to Denham and White 109 

Elevator 

Did not hear, all day, 26th 109 

No noises but street noises 109 

Wheels of, can be seen from where they worked, about forty 

feet aw ay 109 

Crocus sacks on floor, where working 109 

Dickerson, Miss Opie 171 

Conley's character bad 171 

Has known him 2 years 171 

Frank's character good 171 

Has known Frank 17 months 171 

Never met Frank for immoral purposes 171 

Works on second floor 171 

Distances 

Factory from corners of Hunter and Broad Streets, Marietta and 
Forsyth Streets, Whitehall and Hunter Streets, in minutes, walk- 
ing at moderate gait 
Castro, L. M 153, 154 



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Dobbs, L . S 7 

April 27th 

3:25 a. m., called to factory 7 

Went in W. W. Rogers' automobile 7 

3:30 a. m., reached factory 8 

Body of deceased described 7 

Impossible at first to tell color 7 

Required some time to determine color 7 

Place described 8 

Dobbs, W . C 232 

Matthews, W. M., told him Epps and deceased left car together, 

26th 232 

Dressing Room, Ladies', on Second Floor 

7:00 a. m., girls not supposed to be in 173 

Flirting in 172-173 

Ladies in factory reported 174 

N o bath tub in 173 

N o lock on door 173 

No toilet in 173 

Not used for rest room 174 

Used only to change outer clothes before and after work hours... 174 

[ix] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence ix 1913 

Duffy, J. E. 

Cut his hand in metal room 223 

Bled profusely 223 

Drops fell on floor by machine 223 

Went to Atlanta Hospital 223 

E 

Epps, George 1 

April 26th 

1 1 :50 a. m., first saw deceased 1 

12:07 p. m ., last saw her 1 

Deceased caught car into city at Oliver and Lindsey Streets 2 

Witness caught same car at Oliver and Bell Streets 2 

Epps, V era 235 

Minar visit to Epps home 235 

Exhibits 
Defense 

I, Time slip, April 26th (253); 2, Financial Sheet, April 26th 
(254); 3, Data Sheet, part of Financial Sheet (254); 4a, Packing 
Room Reports (255), (256); 4b, Job Department Reports (258); 
4c, Daily Deliveries (259); 4d, Tip Deliveries (260); 5, Average 
(of orders) Sheet (260); 6, Value of Shipments (262); 7, Three 
pencil sheets (263); 8, Eight carbons of letters (263); 9, Book 
containing back Financial Sheets (264) ; 10, Receipt Book (264) ; 

II, Comparison Sheet (265);'12, Pages 56-57 of House Order 
Book (266); 13, Model of Factory (267); 14-25, Original Orders 
(267); 25, Requisition sheet in handwriting of Frank, 7187 



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(269); 26, 7188 (270); 27, 7189 (271); 28, 7190 (272); 29, 7191 
(273); 30, 7192 (274); 31, 7193 (275); 32, 7194 (276); 33, 7195 
(277); 34, 7196 (278); 35, 7197 (279); 36, Statement of Conley, 
May 18 (281); 37, Statement of Conley, May 24 (282); 38, State- 
ment of Conley, M ay 28 (283); 39, Statement of Conley, May 29 
(289); 40, Cash Book of Company (292); 41, Cash Book items 
(293); 42 Letter, Frank to Moses Frank (294); 43, Weekly Re- 
port (295); 44, Envelope (296); 45, Weekly Report (297); 46, 
Weekly Financial Reports (297); 47, Pay Envelope found by 
detective McWorth (297); 48, Club found by same (297); 49, 
Brown suit worn by Frank April 26th (298); 50, Frank's bank 
book (298); 51, Cancelled checks of Frank (298); 52, First floor 

plan Selig residence (299); 53, corner Washington St. and Georgia Ave. (300) ; 61, Plats of parts of 
factory (301) ; 62, Picture of 

Selig residence (301); 63, Picture of Selig residence (301); 64, 

Picture of safe (301); 65, Picture of outer office (301); 66, Picture taken outside of outer office 
(301); 67, Picture of pay window (301); 68, Picture showing foot of elevator shaft (301); 69, 
[x] 

Exhibits-Defense— Continued 

Picture of basement (301); 70, Picture of corner of basement 
where body was found (301); 71, Picture showing passageway to 
back door (302) ; 72, Picture showing entrance to factory (302) ; 

73, Picture showing elevator shaft and trap door (302); 74, Picture of metal room (302) ; 75, Picture 
showing place where cotton 

sack kept (302); 76, Picture of plating room (302); 77, Picture 
showing where floor chipped (302); 78, Picture showing lathe 
(302); 79, Picture showing view 3d fl. to 2d fl. (302); 80, Picture 
showing elevator box (302); 81, Picture showing elevator wheel 
(303); 82, 83, 84, views of metal room (303); 85, 86, views of 
metal room closet (303); 87, Blue print from which model was 
made (303); 88a, b, c, d, jars containing particles of cabbage 
(303); 89, extracts of minutes Walton Superior Court, showing 
indictment of C. B. Dalton (303); 90, Testimony of Newt Lee at 
inquest (303); 91, Testimony of Harry Scott, at inquest (304); 
92, Scott's report to Pinkerton Agency (305); 93, Testimony of 
Policeman Anderson at inquest (307); 94, Court proceedings 

releasing Conley from jail at instance of Dorsey 307 

Exhibits 

State 

A, Diagram of factory (243); B, Frank's statement to Lanford 

(243); C, Cord found around neck of deceased (244); D, rag 

found around neck of deceased (245); E, Five chips of wood 

(245); F, Shirt found at home of Newt Lee (245); G, Jar of cabbage particles (245); H, Conley's 

scratch pad (245); I, Portion 

of E. F. Holloway's statement to Dorsey (245); J, Affidavit of 

Minola McKnight (245); K, specimens of Frank's handwriting 

(247); L, small whip handle (247); M, clothes of deceased (247); 

N, Copy of minutes of State Board of Health (247); 0, Telegram, 



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Frank to Adolph Montag (249); P, Time slip punched for Dorsey by L. T. Kendrick (249); Q, 
Portion of testimony of Miss 

Hattie Hall at inquest (250); R, statement of Duffy accident 
(250); S, Portion of affidavit of Lemmie Quinn (251); T, Con- 
ley's police record (251); U, Pay envelope found by Barrett 
(25 1); V, Portion of testimony of Emil Selig at inquest (252); 
W, portion of testimony of Mrs. Joseph Selig at inquest (252); 
Y, note found by policemen (253); Z, note found by policemen 
(253). 
Experiments at factory testing time of tragedy by Conley's testimony 

143 

Expert Testimony 

Bachman, George, M. D 154 

Childs, Leroy, M . D 165 

Funk, John, M . D 240 

Hancock, Thomas, M. D 156 

xi 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xi 1913 
Expert Testimony-Continued 

Harris, H . F., M . D 48 

Hurt, J. W ., M . D 46 

Johnson, Clarence, M . D 236 

Kendrick, W . S., M . D 162 

Niles, George M ., M . D 238 

Olmsted, J. C, M . D 161 

Smith, Claude, M . D 45 

Westmoreland, Willis, M. D 159 

F 

Ferguson, Helen 42 

April 25 th 

7:00 p. m. saw Frank and asked for pay of deceased, refused... 42 

Frank said "I cannot let you have it" 42 

Had gotten it before but not from Frank 42 

Finley, John 142 

Character of Leo M. Frank good 142 

Elevator motor at factory makes great noise 143 

Saturdays at factory 

Work on, at one time 142 

Frank went to lunch at 1 o'clock 142 

No women in office with Frank 142 

Fleming, Miss Bessie 173 

Frank's character good 173 

Has known him seven months 173 

Flowers, Miss EulaMay 104 

About Schiff getting data for Financial Sheet from her 104 

On Friday nights 104 

Conley's character bad 171 

Frank's character good 171 



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Has known him three years 171 

Never met Frank for immoral purpose 171 

Works on second floor 171 

Frank, Mrs. Rae 125 

April 27th and 28th 

Saw Moses Frank in New York 125 

Brooklyn, lives in 125 

Rich relatives in, none 125 

Frank's father 67 years old 125 

Letter, Frank to Moses Frank, identified 125 

"Yondiff" means "Holiday" 125 

Twenty thousand dollars, parents of Frank worth only 125 

[xii] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xii 1913 

Freeman, Mrs. Emma Clark 104 

April 25th, paid off by Schiff 104 

April 26th 

11:35 a. m., about, went to factory with Miss Corinthia Hall .... 104 

Witness saw in office Frank, two men, Mrs. White, and stenographer 

104 

11:45 a. m., left factory 104 

Left in factory Mrs. May Barrett, and daughter, Mrs. White, 
Arthur White, Harry Denham, Frank, and stenographer.. 104 
Fourth floor 

Frank permitted her to go to 104 

Quinn, Lemmie, she met after she left factory 104 

Telephone at factory, she used 104 

Fuss, M iss Julia 121 

April 28th 

9:00 and 9:15 a. m., Frank came to fourth floor 122 

Came to see if factory running smoothly 122 

This was his custom 122 

Frank did not speak to Conley 122 

April 29th 

Conley got two newspapers from her 121 

April 30th 

Conley got two newspapers from her 121 

Took papers and grinned 122 

Conley, Jim 

April 30th, she talked to him 121 

He said "Frank is as innocent as an angel" 

Character of, for veracity, bad 121 

Never knew Conley to tell the truth 121 

Fourth floor, worked on 121 

Never knew anything immoral about Frank 121 

G 

G antt, J. M 2 

April 26th 



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6:00 p. m. went to factory for shoes 20 

Clocks obscured from view from Frank's office by safe door 20 

Had known deceased all her life 20 

Shipping clerk at factory at one time 20 

Discharged for shortage 20 

Gheesling, W . H 44 

April 27th 

3:50 a. m., body of deceased moved to undertaker's 44 

Body and clothes of deceased described 45 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xiii 1913 

Glogowski, Mrs. H 170 

Boarding house, keeps, Atlanta 170 

Frank's character good 170 

Goldstein, M. F 169 

Attorney at law, Atlanta 169 

Frank's character good 169 

Has known him three and one-half years 169 

Goldstein, M . J 128 

April 26th 

8:15 p. m., played cards, Selig home 128 

Frank read in hall 128 

Nothing unusual about Frank 128 

10:30 p. m., Frank retired 128 

His wife left 15 minutes after 128 

Gordon, George, Counsel for Minola McKnight 224 

As to her affidavit 224 

Gottheimer, Harry 124 

April 26th 

10:00 a. m., was atMontag Bros 124 

Frank came in at the time 124 

Asked Gottheimer to come to factory 124 

"Come up now or come after dinner" 124 

"If you can't come now, come here after dinner" 124 

Saturday 

Accustomed to go to Frank's office on 125 

Found Frank's wife there once 125 

Never found any door locked 125 

Greenfield, A . D 143 

Character of Leo M. Frank good 143 

G rice, L . 43 

Frank excited April 27th 44 

Griffin, Miss M aggie 223 

Says she saw Miss Rebecca Carson go into dressing room with 

Frank 223 

Other ladies on floor at time 223 

Their names not given 223 

H 

Haas, Miss C. L 242 



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Kendley, George, bitter toward Frank 242 

[xiv] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xiv 1913 
Haas, Isaac 

April 27th, did not hear telephone 147 

His wife awakened him 147 

Frank's character good 147 

270 

Hall, M iss Corinthia 103 

April 26th 

11:35 a. m., she reached factory 103 

Frank dismissing two men as she came in 104 

Freeman, Mrs. Emma with her 103 

11:45 a. m., left factory 104 

In factory at time were Arthur White, Mrs. May Barrett, her 

daughter, Harry Denham, Frank, and stenographer 104 

Frank's office 

Entered, with Mrs. Freeman 104 

Frank writing in inner office 104 

Stenographer in outer office 104 

Telephone used by Mrs. Freeman 104 

Holloway, E. F., witness met as she came to factory 104 

Quinn, Lemmie, witness met at Greek Cafe 104 

White, Arthur, sent for by Frank in her presence 104 

Witness saw Mrs. May Barrett, White and Denham on 4th floor, 

26th 104 

Hall, M iss Hattie 101 

April 26th 

10:00 a. m., saw Frank at Montag Bros 101 

Asked by Frank to come to factory 

to do som e work 101 

"Please come over" 101 

"Well, come if you possibly can, as I have work for you to 

do" 101 

10:30 to 11:00 a. m„ went to factory 101 

Frank not working on Financial sheet 101 

10:30 a. m. to 12:02 p. m., Frank did not work on Financial sheet 101 
Financial sheet 

Frank did not work on, mornings of Saturdays 103 

Had never seen, at time of inquest 103 

Testimony before Coroner was as to average sheet 103 

Confused the two sheets 103 

Witness had never seen a Financial sheet at time of Coroner's in- 
quest 103 

Haalett, R . B 29 

April 28th 

Frank's linen and clothes examined by, at Selig home 29 

[xv] 



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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xv 1913 
Hays, Miss Ida 

Conley's character bad 171 

Has known him two years 171 

Frank's character good 171 

Has known him two years 171 

Hewell, Miss Dewey 

From Home of Good Shepherd, Cincinnati 223 

Saw Frank once speak to deceased 223 

All other girls saw it 223 

No concealment 223 

Heyman, Arthur 170 

Attorney at law, Atlanta 170 

Frank's character good 170 

Has known him three or four years 170 

Hicks, Miss Grace 15 

Body of deceased identified 15 

Had known each other about a year 15 

Employees paid off 6:00 to 7:00 p. m., 25th 16 

Witness saw Helen Ferguson at time 16 

Floor dirty and greasy in factory 16 

Frank, Leo M. 

Accustomed to come to metal room on inspection 16 

Never spoke to girls except on business 16 

Spoke to witness three times in five years 16 

Hair combing at machines common 16 

Hair of Magnolia Kennedy very like that of deceased 16 

Office, can not see into from clocks 16 

Paint on floor all over metal room 16 

Hinchey, H . J 117 

April 26th 

2:00 to 2:15 p. m. saw Frank at Capitol 1 17 

Tim e fixed how 117 

Witness driving automobile 117 

Came near colliding with car 1 17 

Frank in the street car 117 

Has known Frank for five years 117 

They have had business dealings 117 

Hixon, Annie (c) 122 

April 26th 

Frank called C. F. Ursenbach 122 

"Tell Mr. Charlie I can't go to the ball game" 122 

[xvi] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xvi 1913 

Hixon, Annie, (c)-Continued 

April 27th 

Frank and wife came to Ursenbachls' to dinner 122 



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As was their custom 122 

Laughed and talked 122 

Nothing unusual about Frank 122 

Not nervous or excited 122 

Hoffman, Henry, 231 

April 26th 

Matthew's car due 12:07 p. m. at Broad and Marietta streets.... 231 

Matthews works under Hoffman 231 

Has run ahead of time 231 

Hollis, W . T 84 

April 26th 

Conductor English Ave. car 84 

Deceased rode on car of, by herself 84 

No boy with her 85 

She was accustomed to ride on Hollis' car two or three times a 

week 85 

Left car at Hunter and Broad Streets 85 

Epps, George, witness knows 85 

Not with deceased, on car, 26th 85 

Oliver Street, Epps did not take car at 85 

Undertaker's 

Witness saw body of deceased at 85 

Holloway, E. F 29 

April 26th 

6:30 to 1 1 :45 a. m., at factory 29 

7:00 a. m., Den— am and White came in 31 

7:00 a. m., shortly after Alonzo ]anln came 31 

8:30 to 8:45 a. m., Frank came 31 

9:00 a. m., Darley came 31 

9:10 a. m., Miss Hall came 31 

9:30 a. m., Frank and Darley go to Montag Bros 30 

10:30 a. m., Holloway checked freight 32 

Witness did not see Conley, 26th 78 

April 28th 

Great excitement at factory 80 

Compelled to shut down at 9:30 a. m 80 

Clark Woodware Company 

Door to, not locked 77 

Nailed up, but found open after tragedy 77, 80 

[xvii] 

Holloway, E. F.-Continued 

Conley, Jim 

Familiar with whole building 31-77 

Not duty of Conley, but of Holloway to watch door 78 

Washing his shirt, 28th 79 

Tried to hide it from Holloway 79 

Witness did not see Conley, 26th 78 

Cords lying scattered all over factory 31 

Dalton, C. B., never in or about factory 78 



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Day watchman at factory 29 

Distances measured by Holloway 79 

Frank, Leo M. 

Never familiar with Conley 77 

Never spoke to deceased 30 

Worked Saturdays at factory 78 

Gantt, J. M., talked many times with deceased 30 

Hopkins, Mrs. Daisy 

Never in factory after June, 1912 27 

Immorality, none practiced in factory 78 

Lee, Newt, first negro night watchman 77 

Saturdays at factory 

Frank worked on ; 78 

His office door never locked 79 

Holloway at 77 

Salesmen frequently there 79 

Frank always saw them 79 

Subpoenaed to Dorsey's office 80 

Hopkins, Daisy, M rs 135 

Atkinson, Miss Laura, did not know 135 

Basement of factory, never in 135 

Character attacked by 

Floyd, J. R., Goddard, R. M. Goddard, A. L., Ballard, N. J., Carr, 

Henry, Rice, J. S., Smith, Lem, Merk, W. P 221 

Would not believe her on oath 221 

Dalton, C. B. 

Acquainted with 135 

Has seen him once only, at his house 135 

Never visited factory with him 135 

Never introduced him to Frank 135 

Frank, Leo M. 

She and Frank never spoke 135 

Never visited his office, never in his office 135 

Worked in factory formerly, packing department 135 

Never in factory since June, 1912 135 

[xviii] 

I 

Hunter, Joel 0. 

Financial Sheet examined by 99 

Testimony as to 99 

Would require 3 to 3 hours 99 

I 

Ingrai, Louis 232 

April, 26th 

Reached city on English Ave. car 232 

Has seen car ahead of time 232 

I 

Jackson, Miss Irene 172 

Dressing room, about Frank going to 172 



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Flirting from factory windows 172 

Frank's character good 172 

Has known him 3 years 172 

Jefferson, Mrs. George W 28 

Cords in factory like cord about neck of deceased 28 

Paints, different colored, in factory 28 

Jones, Ivy (c) 233 

April 26th 

1:00 to 2:00 p. in., saw Conley at Hunter and Forsyth Streets.. 233 

Came in saloon 233 

2:00 p. m., shortly after, left Conley at Hunter and Davis Streets 233 

Jones, John Ashley 164 

April 8th, 1912, saw Frank and Mrs. Frank at factory 165 

Character of Leo M. Frank 

G ood 165 

Investigated by 165 

Grand Jury 

Wrote letter to 165 

Matter of conscience 165 

K 

Kauffman, I. U. 

Description of parts of factory 149 

Including scuttle hole 150 

[xix] 

Kauffman, I. U. -Continued 

Plats and Drawings 

Basement of factory, Defense Exhibit 61 301 

First floor of factory, Defense Exhibit 61 301 

Ground floor of Selig residence, Defense Exhibit 52 299 

Washington St. and Georgia Ave. corner, Defense Exhibit 53.. 300 

Kelley, N 231 

April 26th, deceased not on car of Matthews and Hollis 231 

Kendley, George, 230 

April 26th 

Saw deceased in life 230 

Bitter toward Leo M. Frank 

Asher, S. L. (242); Stahl, M. E. (242); Brent, T. Y. (241); Haas, 

Miss C. L. (242) 

Kendrick, L. T 234 

Night watchman, former, nearly 2 years 234 

Clock needed setting then every twenty-four hours 234 

Would vary 3 to 5 minutes 234 

Saturdays at factory 

Has seen Conley on 234 

Witness usually reached factory on, 1:45 to 2:30 p. m 234 

Went then for his pay 234 

Kennedy, Magnolia 105 

April 25 th 

Frank did not pay off 105 



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Schiff paid off 105 

Ferguson, Helen, there at same time 105 

She did not ask Schiff for deceased's pay 105 

She did not ask Frank for it 105 

Witness came out with Helen Ferguson 105 

They waited for Grace Hicks 105 

Witness swears that Helen Ferguson said nothing about Frank 105 

Kerns, Miss Helen 113 

April 26th 

12:00 m., left work at Bennett Ptg. Co 113 

1:05 p. m., Kress' Store on Whitehall Street 113 

Went to Jacobs' corner, saw clock 113 

1:10 p. m., saw Frank at corner 113 

Did not speak to Frank 1 14 

No one standing between them 114 

Witness not mistaken about time 114 

1:15 p. m., had appointment at corner 113 

1:20 p. m., met friend at corner 113 

[xx] 

Kitchens, Miss Mamie 222 

Dressing room incident 222 

Frank asked if girls did not have work to do 222 

Kriegshaber, V. H 169 

Frank's character good 169 

Has known Frank 3 years 169 

Trustee Hebrew Orphans' Home 169 

Frank also Trustee 169 

Frank came to Home often 169 

L 

Lane, Alfred L 168 

Brooklyn, lives 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Knew him 15 years and at Cornell and Pratt Institute 168 

Lasher, Herbert 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Knew him 3 years at Cornell 168 

Classmate and roommate 2 years 168 

He associated with best men 168 

Lassiter, R . M 43 

Parasol found by, in elevator shaft 43 

Not crushed or broken 43 

Leach, J. R 153 

Street car schedules 153 

Lee, Charlie 133 

Accidents in metal room 

Duffy, J. E., in October, 1912 133 

Blood spurted on floor 133 

Passed by dressing room toward office 133 

Wound dressed in office 133 



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Gilbert, employee named, in 1912 133 

Hand cut in metal room 133 

Was dressed in office 133 

Metal room 

Blood all over floor at times from cuts 134 

Floors not washed or cleaned 134 

Lee, New t 2 

April 25th, paid off at 6:00 p. m 2 

Instructed by Frank to return 26th, at 4:00 p. m 2 

[xxi] 

Lee, Newt-Continued 

April 26th 

4:00 p. in., reached factory about 2 

Excused by Frank for 1/2, hours 2 

5:57 p. in., returned to factory 3 

6:00 p. in., Gantt, J. M., came from saloon 3 

Went back to beer saloon in about half hour 5 

7:00 p. in., Frank phoned factory 3 

7:00 p. in., first trip to basement 6 

Witness says all factory doors unlocked evening of 26th .... 5 
April 27th 

3:00 a. m., body discovered in basement 4 

Claimed he first saw it from toilet 4 

Notified police at once 4 

Clocks punched 26th and 27th 3, 4 

Gantt, J. M. 

6:00 p. in., 26th, came to factory from saloon 3 

W anted to get a pair of shoes 3 

Went back to saloon in half an hour 3 

Frank had discharged Gantt 5 

Gantt a great big fellow, seven feet 5 

Instructions not varied on 26th 5 

Keys returned to Frank each morning 2 

Officers arrest him 14 

Particular instructions as to dustbin 5 

Phagan, Mary 

Body discovered by Newt Lee 4 

Described 4 

Impossible to tell whether white or black 4 

Notified police about 3:00 a. in., 27th 4 

Rounds of factory by Newt Lee 

First visit to basement 7:00 p. in., 26th 6 

In basement each hour during the night 5 

But not all the way back 5 

Visited metal room and ladies' dressing room on rounds 5 

Levy, M rs. A . P 114 

April 26th 

1.20 p. in., saw Frank leave car 1 14 

Tim e, how fixed 114 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Lives across from Selig home 1 14 

Not related to Frank 1 14 

Lewis, Harry 168 

Attorney-at-Law, Brooklyn 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Has known him 12 years 168 

[xxii] 

Loeb, Cohen 116 

April 26th 

2:00 p. m., caught car Washington St. and Georgia Ave 116 

Frank boarded this car at Glenn Street 116 

They sat together 116 

2:10 p. m., Frank left car at Capitol 116 

Car blockaded 116 

Frank went West on Hunter Street 116 

Had on blue suit, wore derby hat 116 

Automobile of H. J. Hinchey almost collided with car 117 

Nothing unusual about Frank 116 

No marks on, no nervousness 116 

Loeb, Julian 116 

April 26th 

1:50 to 2:00 p. m., saw Frank at Wolfsheimer's residence 116 

Talking to Mrs. Michael and Jerome Michael 116 

Cousin of Frank's wife 116 

Kc 

McCoy, M . E 230 

April 26th 

Acquainted with deceased 230 

Saw her, 12 N. Forsyth Street, about 12 o'clock 230 

Time, how fixed 230 

McCrary, Truman (c) 131 

April 26th 

12:00 m., paid off in Frank's office 131 

Frank there at work 131 

Did not tell Conley to relieve his bowels 131 

Did not see Conley at factory 131 

Took hay to factory, on 131 

Clarke Woodenware Co. 

Used door once to haul trash 131 

Conley, Jim 

Never watched or guarded door 131 

Not at factory afternoon of 26th 131 

Frank's office 131 

Any one can see in 131 

Doors partly glass 131 

Never knew doors to be locked 131 

Saturdays 

3:30 to 5:00 p. m., often at factory 131 

Never found front door locked 131 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

[xxiii] 

Mcrary, Truman (c)-Continued 

Never saw Conley sweeping on 131 

Schiff and Frank worked on 131 

McKnight, Albert (c) 41 

April 26th 

1 :00 to 2:00 p. m., claimed to be at Selig home 41 

1 :30 p. m., Frank came home, witness did not see Frank eat .... 41 

Dining room at Selig home described 41 

Kitchen, witness claims to have watched Frank from 41 

McKnight, Minola (c) 110 

April 26th 

Cooked breakfast at Selig home 1 10 

Frank ate shortly after 7 o'clock 1 10 

1 :00 to 2:00 p. m., Albert McKnight not there 1 10 

1 :20 p. m., Frank came to dinner 110 

2:00 p. m., Frank finished eating and left 1 10 

6:30 p. m., Frank ate supper 1 10 

8:00 p. m., cook left for the night 1 10 

Detectives arrest her after the 26th 110 

Carried to Dorsey's office 110 

Confronted by Dorsey, McKnight and another 1 10 

They tried to shape her testimony 1 10 

They compelled her to sign false statement 1 10 

McKnight, Albert, not at Selig home, 26th 1 10 

W ages not raised since tragedy Ill 

Witness denies statements in affidavit which she swears she was 

forced to sign Ill 

Graves and Pickett compelled her to sign a false statement .... 1 10 

They bulldozed and threatened her 1 10 

M cW orth, W . D 141 

Club found by, at factory 141 

Pay envelope found by, and Whitfield 141, 142 

W orked on case fifteen days 141 

May 15th, made search of factory 141 

Looked for mesh bag 142 

M 

Mangum, (. W. 

Testimony of 74 

Mann, Alonzo 123 

April 26th 

11:30 a. m ., left factory 123 

[xxiv] 

Mann, Alonzo-Continued 

Frank had him telephone Schiff 123 

Telephoned Schiff twice 123 

Left Miss Hall at factory with Frank 123 

Saw Holloway, Darley, Irby, McCarley there 123 

Office boy at factory 123 



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Saturdays 

Boy stayed until 3:30 to 4:00 p. m 123 

Frank always at work at that time 123 

Never saw any women in Frank's office 123 

Never saw Dalton there, on 123 

Marcus, Mrs. A. E 127 

April 26th, played cards, Selig home 127 

Frank sat reading in hall 127 

Nothing unusual about Frank 127 

10:00 p. in., Frank retired 127 

Marcus, Mrs. M 128 

April 26th 

8:30 to 8:45 p. in., played cards, Selig home 128 

Frank opened front door for her 128 

10:00 to 10:30 p. in., Frank retired 128 

Mr. and Mrs. Marcus left Selig home 128 

M arx, Dr. David 169 

Frank's character good 170 

Jewish Rabbi, Atlanta 170 

Matthews, J. C 123 

Montag Brothers, works at 123 

April 26th, Frank at Montag Bros 123 

Matthews, W . M 83 

April 26th, motorman English Ave. car 

11:50 a. in., deceased boarded car at Lindsey Street 83 

No little boy with her on car 84 

This car on schedule time 83 

12:10 p. in., left car at Broad and Hunter Streets 84 

Epps, George, witness knows 84 

Not with deceased on car, 26th 84 

Witness did not tell N. C. Dobbs to contrary 232 

Witness saw body at Undertaker's 84 

Mayfield, Miss Emily, former employee 220 

Worked in factory summer 1912 220 

Never saw Frank in dressing room while girls undressed 220 

Works at Jacobs' Pharmacy 220 

[xxv] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xxv 1913 

Maynard, C. J 235 

Dalton, C. B., at factory with woman in 1912 235 

Woman weighed about 125 pounds 235 

Merk, W. P. 

Knows Mrs. Daisy Hopkins 224 

Character for truth and veracity, bad 224 

Michael, Jerome 

April 26th 

1:45 to 2:00 p. m., saw Frank at No. 387 Washington Street .... 1 15 

Time, how fixed 115 

Took dinner at No. 387 Washington Street 115 



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Frank spoke to him and his mother 115 

Nothing unusual about Frank 1 15 

No scratches, marks, no nervousness 115 

Witness is practicing lawyer in Athens 115 

Michael, Mrs. M . G 115 

April 26th 

2:00 p. m., was at No. 387 Washington Street 115 

Frank took car at Washington & Glenn Streets 115 

Saw Frank and greeted him 115 

Tim e fixed, how 115 

With her, Jerome Michael, Julian Loeb, and Mrs. Hennie 

Wolfsheim er 115 

Nothing unusual about Frank 115 

No scratches or bruises, or nervousness 115 

Minar, John M ., reporter 140 

Epps, George 

Visited night of 27th 140 

Went out with Epps' father 141 

Epps did not say anything about seeing deceased on Satur- 
day, April 26th 141 

M odel of Factory 151 

Defense Exhibit 13 267 

Made by blue print, Defense Exhibit 87 303 

M ontag, M rs. A 170 

Frank's character good 170 

Has known him 5 years 170 

Knows his character, how 170 

M ontag, Sigmund 129 

Accidents in factory, cuts 129, 130 

[xxvi] 

Montag, Sigmund-Continued 

April 26th 

10:00 a. m., Frank came to Montag Bros 129 

Stayed about one hour 129 

Talked with Gottheimer and Miss Hall 129 

April 27th 

Frank came to home of, after breakfast 129 

A raw, chilly morning 129 

Nothing unusual about him 129 

No more nervous than Montag 129 

Went to factory and made examination 129 

Factory, saw nothing on floor of, 27th 129 

Financial Sheet 

Of April 24th, received a. m. of 28th 130 

Frank came to Montag Bros, daily 129 

Insurance company ordered factory cleaned 130 

Metal room, accidents numerous in 129 

Pinkerton Detective Agency 

Employed by National Pencil Company 130 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Reports of, furnished to police first 131 

Saturdays at factory 

At factory, Saturdays, up to July, 1912 129 

Frank working on Financial sheet always, on 129 

N 

Nash, Philip 167 

Frank's character good 167 

Has known Frank four years 167 

Classmates at Pratt Institute 167 

Lives Ridgewood, N. J 167 

Connected with N. Y. Telephone Co 167 

Nix, D . J 131 

Office boy at factory April, 1912, to October, 1912 131 

Saturdays at factory 

Frank and Schiff worked 131 

No women or wrong conduct 132 

N ix, M . 123 

April 26th 

Frank at Montag Bros 123 

Asked to use Miss Hall at factory 123 

Miss Hall was Nix's stenographer 123 

She could not go until Mr. Montag's mail finished 124 

Frank wanted her that afternoon, 26th 123 

xxvii 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xxvii 1913 
Nix, M. O.-Continued 

Familiar with Frank's handwriting 123 

Financial sheet in his handwriting 123 

Worked for Montag Bros 123 



Owens, William , M . D 143 

Experiments at factory, with 143 

Assistance of Brent and Fleming 143 

Grand Jury, letter to 147 

Matter of conscience 147 

Owens, W . B 232 

April 26th 

Reached city 12:05 p. m. on White City car 232 

Did not recall seeing on English Ave. car 232 

P 

Pappenheimer, Oscar 126 

As to Financial sheets 126 

Parm elee, Wrs. J. 170 

Frank's character good 170 

Knows his character, how 170 

Pay Envelope 

Found at factory by McWorth & Whitfield 141, 142 

Exhibit 47 of Defense 297 



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Payne, Frank 132 

Beer bottles, none in office 132 

Montag Bros., Frank went to 132 

Frank's office 

Payne stayed in inner office 132 

He never saw beer bottles there 132 

Thanksgiving, 1912 

10:20 a. m ., Conley left 132 

1 1:00 a. m ., Payne left 132 

Frank and Schiff worked on 132 

Saturdays 

1:00 to 2:00 p. m., dinner hour 132 

12:30 p. m. to 3:00 p. m., Frank's dinner 132 

Frank and Schiff worked together 132 

Never saw women or drinking 132 

W orked until 4:00 p. m 132 

[xxviii] 

Pictures (By J. Q. Adams) 

Factory 

Basement, Def. Ex. 69 301 

Passage to rear door, Def. Ex. 71 302 

Place where body found, Def. Ex. 70 301 

Cotton sacks, place kept, Def. Ex. 75 302 

Elevator views 

Box, Def. Ex. 80 302 

Foot of Shaft, Def. Ex. 68 301 

Shaft and trap door, Def. Ex. 73 302 

W heel, 4th floor, Def. Ex. 81 303 

First floor 

Entrance, Def. Ex. 72 302 

Second floor 

Cotton sacks, where kept, Def. Ex. 75 302 

Floor chipped, Def. Ex. 77 302 

Metal room, Def. Ex. 74, 82, 83, 84 302, 303 

Closet to, views, Def, Ex. 85, 86 303 

Lathe in, Def. Ex. 78 302 

Office Outer, Def. Ex. 65 301 

View outside of, Def. Ex. 66 301 

Pay window, Def. Ex. 67 301 

Plating room, Def. Ex. 76 302 

Safe, in office, Def. Ex. 64 301 

View to, from third floor, Def. Ex. 79 302 

Third floor 

View from to second floor, Def. Ex. 79 302 

Fourth floor 

Elevator wheel, Def. Ex. 81 303 

Selig residence 

Two views, Def. Ex. 62, 63 301 

Pinkerton Detective Agency 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Employed by National Pencil Company to find guilty party.. 129, 130 

Pirk, M iss M ary 119 

Conley, Jim 

Accused him of murder 1 19 

Effect of this on Conley 119 

Suspected him and talked with him, 28 1 19 

Forelady, head of polishing department 119 

Frank, Leo M. 

A perfect gentleman 120 

Never heard anything against him 120 

Nothing immoral about him 120 

Spoke to deceased, never 120 

Spots, many different, in factory 120 

[xxix] 

Pollard, C. L 99 

Financial sheet examined by 100 

Testim ony as to 100 

Would require exceeding three hours 100 

Pride, Arthur (c) 134 

Always worked on second floor 134 

Except Saturdays 134 

On Saturdays, all over factory 134 

Conley, Jim 

Character of, for veracity, bad 134 

Never associated with Conley 134 

Never saw Conley watching door on Saturdays 134 

Elevator 

Can be heard when machinery stopped 134 

M akes roaring noise 134 

Motor makes loud noise 134 

Can hear while hammering going on 135 

Saturdays 

Has not missed one since July, 1912 134 

Worked until 4:30 p. m., and all over factory 134 

Never saw any women or drinking in office 134 

Never saw Conley watching door 134 

Q 

Quinn, Lem m ie 106 

April 26th 

W ent to factory to see Schiff 107 

Often went to factory holidays 107 

Witness found doors unlocked, open 107 

12:20 p. m., reached Frank's office 107 

Might have been 12:25 p. m 107 

Saw nothing of Conley, Monteen Stover, nor deceased 107 

Barrett, R. P., pointed out spots 106 

Asked Quinn about reward, said he had been told he had good 

chance for reward 107 

One man told him he could get $2,700, and other $4,500 107 



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Frank, Leo M. 

Never spoke to deceased 107 

Hair found on lathe 107 

Could not tell color 107 

Only 6 or 8 strands 107 

No blood spots where hair found 107 

Haskoline always all over the floor of metal room 107 

Metal room floor very dirty 107 

Could not tell whether spots were blood, paint, or varnish 107 

Never cleaned at all 107 

[xxx] 

Quinn, Lemmie-Continued 

Spots, could not tell whether of paint, varnish or blood 107 

Spots of blood 

Often on floor from cuts 

Witness relates instances of cuts where parties bled profusely 

and passed by spots found by Barrett, coming to office to 

have cuts dressed 107 

Women, about 100, worked in factory 107 

R 

R eed, J. D 235 

Conductor Hollis said George Epps and deceased on his car, 26th. 235 

D enied by H ollis 235 

Rich relatives in Brooklyn, none 125 

Frank's parents worth only $20,000 125 

Robinson, Miss Ruth 222 

Saw Frank once speak to deceased 222 

Called her by name 223 

Rogers, W . W 11 

April 27th 

5:00 to 5:30 a. m., at factory, and heard Starnes phone conversation with Frank 

11 

Description of body of deceased 15 

Excrement in elevator shaft 15 

Mashed by elevator, 27th 15 

"Healthy man's excrement" 15 

Factory 

Frank opened safe readily and told about paying deceased Saturday 

13 

He opened safe with no difficulty 15 

Time clock 

Frank suggested putting in new slip 13 

Slip taken out 13 

Frank, Leo M. 

Rogers went for, with Detective Black 1 1 

Frank carried by undertaker's 12 

He consented readily to go 12, 14 

Stated he did not know her by name 12 

Witness never saw Frank before 27th 14 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Knew nothing of Frank before 27th 14 

Undertaker's 

Witness saw body at 12 

Frank just behind Rogers 12 

[xxxi] 

Schiff, Herbert G 86 

April 25 th 

Frank and Schiff left factory together 5:00 to 5:30 p. m 87 

April 26th 

Schiff intended coming to office but overslept 88 

Was called twice by Frank over phone 88 

April 27th 

Schiff saw Frank, no bruises on him 92 

April 28th 

Factory closed, too much excitement 92 

Girls standing around crying 92 

Had to suspend work 92 

Witness says Conley badly scared 92 

April 29th 

Frank and Schiff together at factory 92 

Frank did not speak to Conley 92 

Average Sheet 

Discussed and described 94, 95 

Miss Hall's initials "H H.," on 93 

Not to be confused with Financial Sheet 93, 95 

Basement 

Conley familiar with 98 

Dirty and filthy in 86 

Dirty box with crocus sack on it, in 86 

Negroes ate in 98 

Blood spots 

Fingers often cut in various parts of factory, brought to office 

for attention 92 

Cash kept at factory $25.00 to $50.00 86 

Clarke Woodenware Company 88 

Door broken open 88 

Clocks repaired immediately when out of order 100 

Conley, Jim 

Badly scared at factory, 28th 

"I am scared to go out, I would give a million dollars if I was 

a white m an" 92 

Could write, Schiff knew it, but did not know Conley denied it. 98 
Frank told Schiff of Conley's watch contract, and Schiff told 

Pinkertons 98 

Peculiar behavior, 28th 92, 98 

[xxxii] 

Schiff, Herbert G. -Continued 

Unreliable 97 

In stockade several times 96 



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Women got him out 97 

Taken off elevator because unreliable 97 

Dalton, C. B., never saw him in factory 87 

Elevator 

Dark around 92 

Door to, easily lifted 92 

Motor box not kept locked 92 

Noise in operating 92 

Ferguson, Helen 

April 26th, paid off by Schiff 87, 96 

Did not ask for pay of deceased 87 

Financial sheet 

Testimony as to 86, 88, 93, 95 

Frank, Leo M. 

As to nervousness 92 

Never spoke to deceased 99 

Hair, impossible to tell color of 93 

Haskoline splashed all over metal department 97 

Negro, unknown, seen by Mrs. White 93 

Notes 

Similar paper found all over plant, swept into trash 92 

Order book, 26, Frank's entries 91 

Pads, scattered all over factory 97 

Picture (State's Exhibit A p. 243), defects in 98 

Pinkerton Detective Agency 

Frank phoned Schiff to get 93 

Safe in office examined by Schiff for mesh bag; no mesh bag found 92 

Salary of Frank and Schiff paid by check 86 

Saturdays 

Frank and Schiff at factory 86 

Frank never known to leave until Financial Sheet completed... 87 

Stenographer seldom there, on 87 

Witness named others at factory as Denham, Pride, Holloway. 87 
Thanksgiving Day, 1912 

Cold and rainy 87 

Conley, Jim, and Frank Payne there 87 

Conley left at 10:30 a. m 87 

Not there after noon 87 

Frank and Schiff at office 87 

12:00 m., Frank and Schiff left 87 

Recollection, how fixed 96 

[xxxiii] 

Scott, H arry 22 

Black, worked with 22 

Pinkertons and police co-operated 25 

Conley's confession as to notes 81, 83 

Frank, Leo M. 

April 29th, Frank taken into custody by Scott and Black 24 

Witness first saw him, 28th, at factory, when Frank related in 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

detail his movements on the 26th 22 

Lee, Newt 

Frank talked to, readily, at Scott's request 24 

Reports furnished Frank's attorneys 23 

Search of factory by Scott 24 

Selig, Emil Ill 

April 26th 

Frank breakfasted before Mr. Selig Ill 

1:15 p. m., Selig came to dinner Ill 

Found Mrs. Selig and Mrs. Frank eating Ill 

1:20 p. m., Frank came to dinner Ill 

Frank sat down and ate Ill 

No scratches or bruises or marks on Frank Ill 

Nothing unusual about Frank Ill 

W ives left husbands eating Ill 

6:30 p. m., next saw Frank at supper 1 1 1 

7:00 p. m ., ate supper 1 1 1 

7:25 p. m., supper finished Ill 

Frank sat in hall and read Ill 

Party of friends came after supper to play cards Ill 

Frank and wife did not play 1 1 1 

Reading baseball story, Frank laughed and came in and told of a baseball joke 

Ill 

While game was in progress, Frank would answer the doorbell Ill 

10:00 to 10:25 p. m., Frank retired 1 1 1 

His wife followed soon after Ill 

They told Mr. Selig good night Ill 

1 1 :00 p. m., the party broke up 1 1 1 

April 27th 

Murder not discussed by Selig 1 12 

No scratches, marks or bruises on Frank Ill 

Talked little with Frank, Sunday 27th 1 12 

Dining room 

Position of sideboard unchanged Ill 

Has never seen servants move it 1 12 

Kitchen, next to dining room Ill 

Small passage between 1 1 1 

[xxxiv] 

Selig, Mrs. Emil 112 

April 26th 

1:10 p. m., had dinner 112 

1 :20 p. m., Frank came to dinner 112 

He sat down and ate 1 12 

1:30 p. m., ladies left table 112 

Frank still eating 112 

6:10 p. m., saw Frank at Jacobs' Pharmacy 112 

Stopped at Mrs. Loeb 's, coming home 112 

6:30 p. m., reached home 112 

Found Frank there ahead of them 1 12 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

No scratches or bruises on him 112 

Nothing unusual about him 1 12 

6:45 p. m., all sat down to supper 1 12 

Frank at supper with others 1 12 

7:15 p. m., supper finished 1 12 

Card playing after supper 1 12 

Frank and wife did not play 1 12 

Frank sat in hall reading 1 12 

Answered door bell at times 112 

Read baseball story and came in and told them of joke 

in story 112 

10:00 to 10:30 p. m., Frank went to bed 1 12 

His wife followed soon 1 12 

12:00 midnight, others played cards, until 112 

Telephone 

Mrs. Selig did not hear, in night 112 

April 27th 

11:00 a. m., saw Frank 113 

No bruises, scratches, marks on him 112 

Reached home with wife 129 

Frank spoke of crime committed 1 12 

Did not speak of youth of deceased or brutality of the crime. 112 
April 29th 

11:00 a. m., Frank arrested : 112 

McKnight, Albert 

Not at Selig home, 26th 128 

McKnight, Minola 

Denies affidavit contents 128 

Wages of 128 

Selig Residence 

Kitchen and dining room described by Bernhardt, C. W 151 

Fisher, Julius 152 

Kauffman, I. U., with plats 148 

W ood, H . M 152 

[xxxv] 

Selig Residence-Continued 

Pictures of, Defense Exhibits 62, 63 301 

Plat of ground floor, Defense Exhibit 52 299 

Sinkovitz, N 242 

Pawned watch with M. E. McCoy 242 

Sm all, M iss D ora 120 

April 29th, at factory 

8:00 to 9:00 a. m., Frank talked to Miss Carson on business .... 121 

Conley worried her for money 120 

Asked for newspapers 120 

B ought extras 121 

Could read all right 120 

Said" Frank just as innocent as I am" and "God knows I am 
never around this place Saturdays" 120 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Elevator makes noise, shakes building 121 

Fourth floor, works on 120 

Frank did not talk to Conley, 29th 121 

Sm ith, H enry 137 

Barrett, R. P. 

After the reward 137 

Counted imaginary dollars 137 

Laughed as he counted 137 

Metal department 

Works in, with R. P. Barrett 137 

Barrett talked continually of reward he was to get, $4,300, 

spoke of it many times 137 

K lein, M ilton 137 

Conley, Jim 

Klein at jail with Frank when Conley was brought in 137 

Sent word Frank would talk with Conley if L. Z. Rosser ad- 
vised it 137 

Frank would not talk with detectives at jail except upon advice 

of L. Z. Rosser 137 

Thanksgiving 1912 

4:30 to 6:00 p. m., saw Frank, and in evening at dinner dance 

at B'nai B'rith 137 

Smith, Mrs. Minnie 

Dalton, C. B., not known at all to her 135 

Snowball, see Gordon Bailey 

Sonn, R . A 169 

Frank's character good 170 

Superintendent Hebrew Orphans' Home 169 

[xxxvi] 

Stahl, M . E 242 

Kendley, George, bitter toward Frank 242 

Stanford, M ell 26 

Spots seen by, in metal room 27 

Swept metal room, 25th 27 

Starnes, J. N 10 

April 27th, 5:00 to 6:00 a. m., went to factory 10 

Basement of factory examined 10 

Blood, what looked like 

April 28th, saw, near dressing room 10 

Chipped up parts 10 

Covered with white substance 10 

Clocks, examined by, with Hendricks 10 

Cords, knots in, described 10 

Many like cords all over factory 1 1 

Frank, Leo M. 

Called over phone by Starnes 10 

Frank asked for night watchman 10 

Sent for by Starnes 10 

Rogers, W. W., sent to Selig Home 10 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Stelker, Joe 

Charge of varnishing department 138 

Conley, Jim 

Character for veracity bad 138 

In chaingang 138 

Floors of factory always dirty and greasy 138 

Frank viewed body of deceased at undertaker's 139 

Nervousness 

Everyone at factory nervous 138 

Witness nauseated by tragedy 139 

Spots seen by Barrett 

Seen by Stelker 138 

Very much like varnish stains or coloring, could have been made 

by red varnish 138 

Stover, Monteen 
April 26th 

12:05 p. m., was at factory 26 

12:10 p. m., left factory 26 

W ent there to get pay 26 

Frank's office 26 

[xxxvii] 

Stover, Monteen-Continued 

Did not see Frank, in 26 

Did not see safe 26 

Did not see wardrobe 26 

M etal room door closed 26 

This door sometimes open and sometimes closed 26 

W orked on fourth floor 26 

T 

Thomas, K. T., civil engineer 153 

Distances to factory, from 

Broad and Hunter Streets, 333 feet, 11/2 minutes walk 153 

Marietta and Forsyth Streets, 1016 feet, 41/2 minutes walk .... 153 
Whitehall and Alabama Streets, 831 feet, 31/2 minutes walk... 153 

W alked at fair gait 153 

Thompson, Mrs. Mattie 173 

Frank's character good 173 

Has known him 3 years 173 

Tillander, 233 

April 26th 

1:40 a. m., at factory with E. K. Graham and saw negro 233 

Frank at work in inner office 233 

Stenographer in outer office 233 

Todd, John W 168 

Assistant Pur. Agt, Crucible Steel Co., Pittsburg 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Has known Frank many years 168 

Knew him at Cornell 168 

Turner, W. E. 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Says he saw Frank once talk with deceased 223 

Could not describe her 224 

Other girls near at time 224 

Witness unable to name any one 224 

Professed not to know any 224 

U 

Ursenbach, C. F 126 

April 25th, phoned Frank to go to ball game next day 126 

April 26th 

1:40 p. m., reached him home 126 

His cook gave him Frank's message 126 

[xxxviii] 

Ursenbach, C. F. -Continued 

April 27th 

Frank at his house 

No scratches or bruises on Frank 126 

Saw Frank again Sunday afternoon and evening 126 

Frank told him about tragedy 126 

4:00 p. m., Frank borrowed rain coat 126 

6:00 p. m., rain coat returned 126 

Bridge played at Ursenbach home on Saturday nights 126 

Frank and wife did not play poker 126 

Ursenbach, Mrs. 0. F 126 

April 26th 

1 :30 p. m., took phone message from cook 126 

April 27th 

No bruises or marks on Frank 126 

Rain coat borrowed from husband 126 

Told of tragedy by Frank 127 

Frank did not accuse any one 127 

Didn't say that he suspected any one 127 

Witness said Frank was sorry he had let J. M. Gantt in factory. 127 

Gantt discharged for dishonesty 127 

V 

Vanderhoef, J. E 168 

Foreman of foundry, Cornell 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Knew Frank two years 168 

A t Cornell 168 

W 

Waggoner, R. L 42 

April 29th 

10:30 to 11:30 a. m., in front of factory 42 

Saw Frank walk to window and twist hands 43 

Seemed that Frank was nervous 43 

Washington Street and Georgia Avenue, Corner 

Plat showing, defense exhibit 53 300 

Weinkauf, Godfrey 133 

Saturdays at factory 



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3:00 to 5:00 p. m., visited factory 133 

Would stay about two hours 133 

Frank, Schiff, and Holloway there 133 

Superintendent of lead plant 133 

[xxxix] 

White, Mrs. J. A 21 

April 26th 

11:30 a. m., saw her husband at factory 21. 

Frank, Miss Hall, Denham, White, and two other men, all in 

factory at that time 21 

11:45 she left 21 

12:30 p. m. she returned 21 

1:00 p. m. she left, she saw Frank in his office as she left, he was 

at work 21 

1 :00 p. m. she saw unknown negro at foot of stairs sitting on box 

as she left factory 21 

White and Denham worked fourth floor 21 

Willett, T . H 151 

Pattern, or model, of factory 151 

Defense Exhibit 13 267 

Made by blue print, Def. Ex. 87 303 

Witnesses 

TESTIMONY FOR STATE. 

DC RD RO 

Anderson, W . F 39 40 

Barrett, R. P 26 27 

Beavers, J. L 43 43 

Black, John R 17 18 19 19 

Coleman, Mrs. J. W 1 1 1 

Coleman, Mrs. J. W. (Recalled) 20 

Conley, James 52 59 73 

Dalton, C. B 50 51 51, 52 51 

Darley, N. V 32 33 38 39 

Darley, N. V. (Recalled by Deft.) 75 76, 77 77 

Dobbs, L. S 7 8 9 9 

Dobbs, L. S., (Recalled for State) 10 

Epps, George 1 2 

Epps, George (Recalled by Deft.) 80 

February, G. C 41 41 

Ferguson, Miss Helen 42 42 42 

Gantt, J. M 20 21 

Gheesling, W . H 44 45 45 

Grice, L. 43 44 44 

Harris, Dr. H. F 48 50 

Haslett, B. B 29 29 

Hicks, Miss Grace 15 16 

[xl] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence xl 1913 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Witnesses-Continued 

RD 

31,32 

79 

48 

29 

43 

7 

42 

Holloway, E. F 

Holloway, E. F. (Recalled by Deft.) 

Hurt, Dr. J. W 

Jefferson, Mrs. George W 

Lassiter, R. M 

Lee, Newt (Colored) 

McKnight, Albert 

Mangum, C. W 

Parry, H.L 

Rogers, W. W 

R osser, S. L 

Scott, H arry 

Scott, Harry (Recalled for State) 

Smith, Dr. Claude 

Stanford, M ell 

Stanford, Mell (Recalled for State) 

Starnes, J. N 

Starnes, J. N. (Recalled for State) 

Stover, Miss Monteen 

W aggoner, R. L 

White, Mrs. J. A 

White, Mrs. J. A. (Recalled for State) .... 

15 15 

25 

83 

11 

26 

STATE RESTS. 

STATE IN REBUTTAL. 

Ballard, N.J 

Benedict, Dr. S. C 

B orn, J. T 

Boyce, Leon 

Caldwell, M.G 

Carr, Henry 

Carson, Miss Rebecca 

Carst, Miss Marie 

Cato, Miss Myrtie 

Coleman, J. W 

Cook, W.M 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

221 

229 

222 

222 

222 

221 

223 

222 

222-223 

233 

222 

[xli] 

Witnesses-Continued 

DC RDR 

Craven, R. L 226 227 

Davis, Miss Mary 222 

Dobbs, Sergeant L. S 233 

Dobbs, W.C 232 232 

Donegan, Mrs. C. D 222 

Duffy, J. E 223 223 

Elder, W.J 222 

Epps, Vera 235 

Floyd, J. R 221 

Funk, Dr. John 240 241 

Gantt, J. M 234 

Goddard, A. L 221 

Goddard, R. M 221 

Gordon, George 224 225 226 

Graham, E. K 233 233 

Griffin, Miss Maggie 222, 223 

Hale, W.C 222 

Hearn, J. T 221 222 

Heifner, F. P 222 

Hendricks, J. H 229 

Hewell, Miss Dewey 223 223 

Hoffman, Henry 23 1 23 1 

Hollis, W.T 235 

Houston, A. B 222 

Hunt, A. W 222 

Ingram, Louis 232 232 

Johnson, Dr. Clarence 236 237 238 

Johnson, Mrs. H. R 222 

Johnson, R. V 222 222 

Jones, Ivey (c) 234 

Kendrick, L. T 234 234 

Kendley, George 230 230 

Kelley, N 231 231 

Kitchens, Miss Mamie 222 222 

McCoy, M . E 230 230 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

McEwing, J. C 229 230 

McGinnis, C. B 222 

McKnight, Albert 226 226 

Matthews, W. M 232 232 

[xlii] 
Witnesses-Continued 

Maynard, C.J 

Merk, W.P 

Niles)Dr. G. M 

Owens, W.B 

Patrick, W.C 

Pettis, Miss Nellie 

Pickett, E. H 

Reed, J. D 

Rice, J. S 

Robinson, Miss Ruth 

Rogers, W. W 

Scott, Harry 

Smith, Miss Carrie 

Smith, Lem 

Starnes, J. N 

Tillander, 

Turner, W . E 

Wallace, Mrs. Mary E 

Winkle, Miss Estelle 

Wright, W.M 

TESTIMONY FOR 1 

Adams, J. Q 

Alder, Charles 

Albert, Prof. C. D 

Ambrose, P. L 

Anderson, A. N 

Atherton, Miss Grace 

Atkinson, Miss Laura 

Bachman, Prof. George 

Bailey, Gordon 

Barnes, Miss Sarah 

Barnes, M rs 

Bauer, R. L 

Bauer, W m 

Beard, Emma (c) 

Bernard, J 

[xliii] 

239 240 

222 

222 

222 

DEFENDANT. 

150 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

221 

169 

136 

147 

220 

135 q 

154 

137 

172 

220 

136 

221 

122 

147 148 

[xliii] 
Witnesses-Continued 

Bernhardt, C. W 

Bird, LP 

Blair, Miss M ollie 

Boehm, Julian B 

Branch, Harlee 

Brown, Mrs. Jos 

Butler, R.P 

Butler, R. P. (Rec.) 

Campbell, W ade 

Carson, Miss Irene 

Carson, Miss Rebecca 

Carson, Mrs. E. M 

Carson, Mrs. M. W 

Castro, L. M 

Chambers, Phillip 

Childs, Dr. Leroy W 

Cooper, V . S 

Coplan, Nathan 

Coplan, Nathan (Rec.) 

Cowan, Miss Cora 

Craig, E d 

Craig, Robert 

Craig, Samuel 

Darley, N.V 

Denham, Harry 

Denham, Mrs. Georgia 

Dickerson, Miss Opie 

Dittler, Alex 

Dittler, Em il 

Einstein, L 

Field, Miss Jennie May 

Finley, John 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Fischer, Julius A 

Fitzpatrick, E. E 

Fleming, Miss Bessie 

Flowers, Miss Eula May 

Flowers, Miss Eula May 

Foster, Miss Minnie 

Fox, Al 

Fox, J 

Frank, Leo M., Statement 

[xliv] 

D 

151 

136 

220 

221 

139 

221 

148 

221 

105 

174 

220 

118 

221 

154 

132 

165 

136 

138 

221 

220 

136 

136 

136 

139 140 

148 

106 106 

119 

133 

167 

173 

105 

171 

[xliv] 
Witnesses-Continued 

Frank, Mrs. Rae 

Freeman, Mrs. Emma Clarke 

Freeman, Mrs. Emma Clarke (Rec.) 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Fuss, Miss Julia 

Fuss, Miss Julia (Rec.) 

Gershon, Joseph 

Glogowski, Mrs. H 

Goldstein, M . F 

Goldstein, M . J 

Goodman, Miss Lillie M 

Gottheimer, Harry 

Greenfield, A. D 

Guthman, Al 

Haas, Mrs. C.S 

H aas, Isaac 

Hall, Miss Corinthia 

Hall, Miss Corinthia 

Hall, Miss Hattie 

Hamilton, I. M 

Hancock, Dr. Thomas 

Harris, Mrs. A. I 

Hatchett, Miss Mary 

Hatchett, Miss W illie 

Hays, M iss Ida 

Hays, Miss Velma 

Heilbron, Fred 

Heyman, Arthur 

Hinchey, H . J 

Hixon, Annie (c) 

Hollis, W.T 

Holloway, A. C 

Holmes, Miss Ida 

Hopkins, Daisy 

Howell, Miss Annie 

Hunter, Joel C 

Jackson, Miss Irene 

Johnson, Mrs. W . R 

Jones, A . J 

Jones, John Ashley 

Jones, M rs. 

Kauffman, I. U 

Kendrick, Dr. W . S 

Kennedy, Miss Magnolia 

Kerns, Miss Helen 

Klein, Mrs. Dan 

xlv 
171 
121 
169 
128 
125 
143 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

147 

104 

102 103 

171 

85 85 

135 135 

164 165 

150 

164 

105 

[xlv] 
Witnesses-Continued 

Klein, M ilton 

Klein, Milton (Rec.) 

Klein, Miss Ray 

Kriegshaber, V. H 

Lane, Alfred Loring 

Lasher, Herbert 

Leach, J. R 

Lee, Charlie 

Lee, Charlie (Rec.) 

Levy, Mrs. A. P 

Lewis, Harry 

Loeb, Cohen 

Loeb, Miss Helen 

Loeb, Julian 

Loeb, M arcus 

M aclntyre, D. I 

M cCarley, P. D 

McCord, Miss Marjorie 

McCrary, Truman (c) 

McKnight, Minola (c) 

McMurty, Miss Lena 

McWorth, W.D 

Mann, Alonzo 

Marcus, Mrs. A. E 

Marcus, Mrs. M 

Marx, Dr. David 

Marx, Mrs. David 

Matthews, J. C 

Matthews, W . M 

May, Mrs. Martin 

Mayfield, Miss Emily 

Mayfield, Miss Jennie 

Meyer, M . W 

Michael, Jerome 

Michael, Mrs. M. G 

Minar, John M 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Mitchell, W.T 

Montag, Mrs. Adolph 

Montag, Sigmund 

Moss, L. H 

Moss, M rs. L. H 

Nash, Phillip 

Nix, D.J 

Nix, M.O 

Nix, 0. A 

[xlvi] 

D 

137 

221 

221 

169 

168 

168 

153 

133 

221 

114 

168 

116 

221 

116 

221 

221 

221 

221 

131 

110 

221 

141 

123 

127 

128 

169 

221 

123 

83 

221 

220 

221 

221 

115 

115 

140 

136 

170 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

129 

221 

221 

168 

131 

123 

136 

169 

168 

153 

133 

114 115 

116 

141 

123 

128 

128 

84 84 84 

220 

115 

115 

141 

170 

130 

132 

124 

[xlvi] 

Witnesses-Continued 

Olmstead, Dr. J. C 

Osborne, Miss Annie 

Owens, Dr. W m 

Pappenheimer, Oscar 

Parmalee, Mrs. J. 

Patrick, J. H 

Patterson, B. L 

Payne, Frank 

Pirk, Miss Mary 

Pirk, Miss Mary 

Pollard, C.B 

Pride, Arthur (c) 

Quinn, Lemmie 

Rice, M.S 

Rosenberg, Mrs. Mollie 

Schiff, F. G 

Schiff, Herbert G 

Schiff, Herbert G. (Rec. for Cross-Exam.). 

Selig, Emil 

Selig, Mrs. Emil 

Selig, Mrs, Emil (Rec.) 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Silverman, M. H 

Small, Miss Dora 

Small, Mrs. Dora 

Smith, Miss B. D 

Smith, Henry 

Smith, Mrs. Minnie 

Smith, Miss Minnie 

Sommerfield, Dr. J. E 

Sommerfield, Mrs. J. E 

Sonn, R . A 

Sonn, Mrs. R. A 

Spivey, Miss Zilla 

Stelker, Joe 

Stelker, Joe (Rec.) 

Sterne, Mrs. M. L 

Stewart, Miss Ethel 

Strauss, I 

Thomas, Mrs. Ella 

Thomas, K. T 

Thompson, Mrs. Mattie 

Todd, John W 

Ursenbach, C. F 

Ursenbach, Mrs. C. F 

[xlvii] 

D 

161 

220 

143 

126 

170 

136 

136 

132 

119 

221 

99 

134 

106 

221 

221 

221 

86 

111 

112 

128 

221 

120 

221 

220 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

137 

135 

221 

221 

221 

169 

221 

221 

138 

221 

221 

220 

128 

220 

153 

173 

168 

126 

126 

145 147 

170 

132 

119 

100 

135 

108 

97,99 

100 

113 

120 

137 

138 139 

153 

174 

126 

127 

[xlvii] 

Witnesses-Continued 

DC RD RC 

Vanderhoef, Prof. J. E 169 169 

Wardlaw, Mrs. J. J 174 

Weinkauf, Godfrey 133 133 

Westmoreland, Dr. Willis F 159 160 161 

White, Miss Bessie 220 

Wildauer, Dr. B 221 

Willett, T. H 151 151 151 

Wilson, Mrs. S. A 221 

Wolf sheimer, Mrs. Hennie 116 116 

Wood, H. M 152 152 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Word, Miss Lizzie 220 

Wright, Miss Maude 220 

Wright, Richard A 168 

Ziganki, F 221 

TESTIMONY FOR DEFENDANT IN SUR- 
REBUTTAL. 

Asher, S. L 242 242 

Brent, T. Y 241 242 

Frank, Leo M., Statement 243 

Haas, M iss C. S 242 

Sinkovitz, N 242 242 

Stahl, M.E 242 

Wolfsheimer, Mrs. Hennie 116 

April 26th 

2:00 p. m. saw Frank at No. 387 Washington Street 116 

Had finished dinner 116 

No scratches or bruises on Frank 116 

Nothing unusual about him 116 

Tim e, how fixed 116 

Aunt of Frank's wife 116 

Wright, Richard A. 

Consulting engineer, Brooklyn 168 

Frank's character good 168 

Has known Frank four years 168 

At Cornell and Pratt Institute 168 

Classmates 168 

y 

"Yondiff" is Hebrew for "Holiday" 125 

[xlviii] 

In the Supreme Court of Georgia 

OCTOBER TERM, 1913 

LEO M. FRANK, 

Plaintiff in Error 

vs. From Fulton Superior Court. 

STATE OF GEORGIA 

Defendant in Error 

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE. 

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, sworn for the State. 

I am Mary Phagan's mother. I last saw her alive on the 26th day of 

April, 1913, about a quarter to twelve, at home, at 146 Lindsey Street. 

She was getting ready to go to the pencil factory to get her pay envelope. 

About 1 1 :30 she ate some cabbage and bread. She left home at a quarter 

to twelve. She would have been fourteen years old the first day of June, 

was fair complected, heavy set, very pretty, and was extra large for her 

age. She had on a lavender dress, trimmed in lace, and a blue hat. She 

had dimples in her cheeks. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The blue hat that is seen here is the hat the little girl had on that 

day. It had some pale blue ribbon and some flowers when she left home. 



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It was a small bunch of little pink flowers right in the center. We live 

two blocks from the street car line. There is a store there, at the place 

she usually gets on the car, kept by Mrs. Smith. Epps is a neighbor of 

ours. He was a friend of Mary's. He wasn't no special friend of hers. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

These are the clothes that she wore on the day (State's Exhibit 

M.") 

GEORGE EPPS, sworn for the State. 

I am fourteen years old. I live right around the corner from Mary 

Phagan's home. I have known her about a year. The last time I saw 

her was Saturday morning coming to town on the English Avenue car. 

It was about ten minutes to twelve when I first saw her. I left her about 

seven minutes after twelve at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta Street. 

She had on that hat, parasol and things when I left her. She was going to 

the pencil factory to draw her money. She said she was going to see the 

parade at Elkin-Watson's at two o'clock. She never showed up. I 

stayed around there until four o'clock and then I went to the ball game. 

When I left her at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta, I went under the 

[1] 

bridge to get papers and she went over the bridge to the pencil factory, 
about two blocks down Forsyth Street. I sat with Mary on the car. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I know what time it was when I met Mary because I looked at Bry- 
ant and Keheley's clock at the corner of Oliver and Bellwood, where I 
caught the car. She caught the car at Oliver and Lindsey and I caught 
the car at Oliver and Bell Street. She got on before I did, just one block 
before. I didn't say anything before the Coroner's jury about seeing a 
clock there, but I did see one. I know it was about seven minutes after 
twelve when I got off at Marietta Street because I can tell by the sun. I 
lived in the country and when I got off I looked at the sun. Mary got off 
the street car with me. No, she didn't ride on to Hunter Street. I am 
sure of that. She walked on down to the pencil factory on the right-hand 
side of Forsyth Street. 
NEWT LEE (colored), sworn for the State. 

On the 26th day of April, 1913,1 was night watchman at the National 
Pencil Factory. I had been night watchman there for about three weeks. 
When I began working there, Mr. Frank carried me around and showed 
me everything that I would have to do. I would have to get there at six 
o'clock on week days, and on Saturday evenings I have to come at five 
o'clock. On Friday, the 25th of April, he told me To-morrow is a holi- 
day and I want you to come back at four o'clock."" I want to get off a 
little earlier than I have been getting off." I got to the factory on Sat- 
urday about three or four minutes before four. The front door was not 
locked. I pushed it open, went on in and got to the double door there. I 
was paid off Friday night at six o'clock. It was put out that everybody 
would be paid off then. Every Saturday when I get off he gives me the 
keys at twelve o'clock, so that if he happened to be gone when I get back 
there at five or six o'clock I could get in, and every Monday morning I 



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return the keys to him. The front door has always been unlocked on 
previous Saturday afternoons. After you go inside and come up about 
middle ways of the steps, there are some double doors there. It was 
locked on Saturday when I got there. Have never found it that way be- 
fore. I took my keys and unlocked it. When I went upstairs I had a 
sack of bananas and I stood to the left of that desk like I do every Sat- 
urday. I says like I always do, "Alright, Mr. Frank," and he come bust- 
ling out of his office. He had never done that before. He always called 
me when he wanted to tell me anything and said "Step here a minute, 
Newt." This time he came up rubbing his hands and says, "Newt, I am 
sorry I had you come so soon, you could have been at home sleeping, I 
tell you what you do, you go out in town and have a good time." He 
had never let me off before that. I could have laid down there in the 
shipping room and gone to sleep, and I told him that. He says, "You 
needs to have a good time. You go down town, stay an hour and a half 

[2] 

and come back your usual time at six o'clock. Be sure and be back at six 
o'clock." I then went out the door and stayed until about four minutes 
to six. When I came back the doors were unlocked just as I left them 
and I went and says," Allright, Mr. Frank," and he says, What time is 
it?" and I says, "It lacks two minutes of six." He says, "Don't punch 
yet, there is a few worked to-day and I want to change the slip." It took 
him twice as long this time than it did the other times I saw him fix it. 
He fumbled putting it in, while I held the lever for him and I think he 
made some remark about he was not used to putting it in. When Mr. 
Frank put the tape in I punched and I went on down-stairs. While I was 
down there Mr. Gantt came from across the street from the beer saloon 
and says "Newt, I got a pair of old shoes that I want to get upstairs to 
have fixed." I says, "I ain't allowed to let anybody in here after six 
o'clock. About that time Mr. Frank come busting out of the door and 
run into Gantt unexpected and he jumped back frightened. Gantt says, 
"I got a pair of old shoes upstairs, have you any objection to my getting 
them?" Frank says, "I don't think they are up there, I think I saw the 
boy sweep some up in the trash the other day." Mr. Gantt asked him 
what sort they were and Mr. Frank said "tans." Gantt says, "Well, I 
had a pair of black ones, too." Frank says, "Well, I don't know," and 
he dropped his head down just so. Then he raised his head and says, 
"Newt, go with him and stay with him and help him find them," and I 
went up there with Mr. Gantt and found them in the shipping room, two 
pair, the tans and the black ones. Mr. Frank phoned me that night about 
an hour after he left, it was sometime after seven o'clock. He says, "How 
is everything?" and I says, "Everything is all right so far as I know," 
and he says, "Good-bye." No, he did not ask anything about Gantt. 
Yes, that is the first time he ever phoned to me on a Saturday night, or 
at all. 

There is a light on the street floor just after you get in the entrance 
to the building. The light is right up here where that partition comes 
across. Mr. Frank told me when I first went there, "Keep that light 



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burning bright, so the officers can see in when they pass by." It wasn't 
burning that day at all. I lit it at six o'clock myself. On Saturdays I 
always lit it, but week-days it would always be lit when I got there. On 
Saturdays I always got there at five o'clock. This Saturday he got me 
there an hour earlier and let me off later. There is a light in the base- 
ment down there at the foot of the ladder. He told me to keep that burn- 
ing all the time. It has two little chains to it to turn on and turn off the 
gas. When I got there on making my rounds at 7 p. m. on the 26th of 
April, it was burning just as low as you could turn it, like a lightning 
bug. I left it Saturday morning burning bright. I made my rounds reg- 
ularly every half hour Saturday night. I punched on the hour and 
punched on the half and I made all my punches. The elevator doors on 
the street floor and office floor were closed when I got there on Saturday. 
They were fastened down just like we fasten them down every other 
night. When three o'clock came I went down the basement and when I 

[3] 

went down and got ready to come back I discovered the body there. I 
went down to the toilet and when I got through I looked at the dust bin 
back to the door to see how the door was and it being dark I picked up 
my lantern and went there and I saw something laying there which I 
thought some of the boys had put there to scare me, then I walked a little 
piece towards it and I seen what it was and I got out of there. I got up the 
ladder and called up police station. It was after three o'clock. I carried 
the officers down where I found the body. I tried to get Mr. Frank on the 
telephone and was still trying when the officers came. I guess I was try- 
ing about eight minutes. I saw Mr. Frank Sunday morning at about 
seven or eight o'clock. He was coming in the office. He looked down on 
the floor and never spoke to me. He dropped his head right down this 
way. Mr. Frank was there and didn't say nothing while Mr. Darley was 
speaking to me. Boots Rogers, Chief Lanford, Darley, Mr. Frank and I 
were there when they opened the clock. Mr. Frank opened the clock and 
said the punches were all right, that I hadn't missed any punches. I 
punched every half hour from six o'clock until three o'clock, which was 
the last punch I made. I don't know whether they took out that slip or 
not. On Tuesday night, April 29th at about ten o'clock I had a conver- 
sation at the station house with Mr. Frank. They handcuffed me to a 
chair. They went and got Mr. Frank and brought him in and he sat 
down next to the door. He dropped his head and looked down. We were 
all alone. I said, "Mr. Frank, it's mighty hard for me to be handcuffed 
here for something I don't know anything about." He said, "What's 
the difference, they have got me locked up and a man guarding me." I 
said, "Mr. Frank, do you believe I committed that crime," and he said, 
"No, Newt, I know you didn't, but I believe you know something about 
it." I said, "Mr. Frank, I don't know a thing about it, no more than 
finding the body." He said, "We are not talking about that now, we 
will let that go. If you keep that up we will both go to hell," then the 
officers both came in. When Mr. Frank came out of his office that Satur- 
day he was looking down and rubbing his hands. I have never seen him 



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rubbing his hands that way before. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know how many times I told this story before. Everybody 
was after me all the time down there at the station house. Yes, I testi- 
fied at the coroner's inquest and I told them there that Mr. Frank jumped 
back like he was frightened when he saw Mr. Gantt. I am sure I told 
them, and I told them that Mr. Frank jumped back and held his head 
down. I didn't say before the coroner that he said he had given one of 
the pair of shoes of Mr. Gantt to one of the boys; they got that wrong. 
On Saturdays I had to wake up usually and get to the factory at twelve 
o'clock. This time Mr. Frank told me to get back at four. I did say be- 
fore the coroner that he was looking down when he came out of his office. 
I told them also that there was a place in that building when I could go 
to sleep, but they didn't ask me where. 

[4] 

When you come in the front door of the factory, you can go right on 
by the elevator and right down into the basement, anybody could do it. 
The fact that the double doors on the steps were locked wouldn't prevent 
anybody from going in the basement. That would only prevent anybody 
from up stairs from going into the basement unless they went by the ele- 
vator or by unlocking those double doors. All of the doors to the factory 
were unlocked when I got back there Saturday afternoon about 6 o'clock, 
the first floor, the second floor, the third floor and the fourth floor. Any- 
body could come right in from the street and go all over the factory with- 
out Mr. Frank in his office knowing anything about it. The doors are 
never closed at all. That is a great big, old, rambling place up there. 
The shutters, the blinds to the factory were all closed that day because 
it was a holiday, excepting two or three on the first floor which I closed 
up that night. It's a very dark place when the shutters are closed. That 
is why we have to burn a light. There is a light on the first floor near the 
clock, it burns all the time because that is a dark spot. There are two 
clocks, one punches to a hundred, the other punches to two hundred, be- 
cause there are more than a hundred employees. I punch both of them. 
About Mr. Frank and Mr. Gantt, they had had a difficulty and I knew 
that Mr. Frank didn't want him in there. Mr. Frank had told me "Lee, 
I have discharged Mr. Gantt, I don't want him in here, keep him out of 
here," and he had said," When you see him hanging around here, watch 
him." That is the reason I thought Mr. Frank was startled when he saw 
Mr. Gantt. Mr. Gantt is a great big fellow, nearly seven feet. When he 
went out I watched him as he went to the beer saloon and I went on up- 
stairs. He left the factory about half past six. I went through the ma- 
chine room every time I made a punch that night. I went to the ladies' 
dressing room every half hour that night until three o'clock. I went all 
over the building every half hour, excepting the basement. I went down 
to the basement every hour that night, but not all the way back. Mr. 
Frank had instructed me to go over the building every half hour and he 
said go down in the basement once in awhile. He said go back far enough 
to see the door was closed. He told me to look out for the dust bin be- 



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cause that is where we might have a fire and to see that the back door is 
shut and to go over all the building every half hour. No, he didn't give 
me any different instructions on that Saturday, he didn't tell me not to 
go in the basement or in the metal department. He allowed me to carry 
out the instructions just like I had been doing before. Yes, if I had gone 
back to find out whether that door was closed or not, I would have found 
the body, but I could see if the door was open, because there was a light 
back there. No, it wasn't open that night. It was shut when I found the 
body. It was about ten minutes after I telephoned the police that they 
arrived. When I was down there I was close enough to the door to see it 
was shut, there was a light in front of it. There was no light between 
the body and the door. It was dark back there. The body was about 
sixty feet from that door. If the back door had been open I could have 
seen that big light back there in the alley. The back door was closed 

[5] 

when I found the body. The first time I went down the basement that 
night was seven o'clock. I went just a little piece beyond the dark, so I 
could see whether there was any fire down there. That's what I was 
looking for. Yes, I could tell whether the door was open from there. No, 
I didn't go back as far as they found the body, I didn't go back that far 
at all during the night. The reason I went that far back when I saw the 
body was because I went to the closet. There are two closets on the sec- 
ond floor, one on the third floor and one on the fourth floor. I didn't see 
the lady's hat or shoe when I went down to that little place with my lan- 
tern, nor the parasol. My lantern was dirty. I was sitting down there, 
after I had punched, on the seat, set my lantern on the outside. When I 
got through I picked up my lantern, I walked a few steps down that way, 
I seed something over there, about that much of the lady's leg and dress. 
I guess I walked about three or four feet, or five or six. I guess the body 
was about ten feet from the closet. As to what made me look in that 
direction from the closet, because I wanted to look that way. I picked 
up the lantern to go down there to see the dust bin, to see whether there 
was any fire there. The dust bin was to the right of me. When I was sit- 
ting down there the dust bin was not entirely hid behind the partition. I 
could see where the dust came down. The balance of the night in order 
to see whether there was any fire in the dust bin or not I went twenty or 
twenty-five feet from the scuttle hole, and when I was down in the closet 
I had to go at least ten feet to see whether or not there was any fire in the 
dust bin. I would have gone further if I hadn't discovered the body. 
When I saw the body, the closest I ever got to it was about six feet. I 
was holding my lantern in my hand. I just saw the feet. When I first 
saw it I was about ten feet from it. As to how far the body was from 
where I was sitting in the closet, it was not less than ten feet and not 
more than thirty. I stood and looked at it to see whether or not it was a 
natural body. When I first got there I didn't think it was a white woman 
because her face was so dirty and her hair was so crinkled and there were 
white spots on her face. When the police came back upstairs they said 
it was a white girl. I think I reported to the police that it was a white 



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woman. She was lying on her back with her face turned kinder to one 
side. I could see her forehead. I saw a little blood on the side of her 
head that was turned next to me. The blood was on the right side of her 
head. I am sure she was lying on her back. Mr. Frank had told me if 
anything serious happened to call up the police and if anything like fire 
to call up fire department. I already knew the number of the station 
house. I did say at the coroner's inquest that it took Mr. Frank longer 
to put the tape on this time than it did before. I did not say it took twice 
as long at the coroner's inquest, because they didn't ask me. I didn't 
pay any attention to him the first time he put the tape on. The reason 
the last time I know it took him longer because I held the lever and had 
to move it backwards and forwards. When I was in the basement one of 
the policemen read the note that they found. They read these words, 
"The tall, black, slim negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night" 

[6] 

and when they got to the word "night" I said "They must be trying to 
put it off on me." I didn't say, "Boss, that's me." 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The first time I saw Mr. Frank put any tape on, he didn't say any- 
thing about it being any trouble. The last time he put it on, he said 
something about that he wasn't used to putting it on. I was holding the 
lever there and he got it on twice and he had put it on wrong and lie 
would have to slip it out and put it back. When Mr. Frank came out 
rubbing his hands, he came out of his inner office into the outer office and 
from there in front of the clock. I did not go down in the basement as 
far as the boiler during the night, except when I discovered the body. 
The officers talked to me the whole time. I didn't get to sleep hardly, 
day or night. Just the time I would get ready to go to sleep, here they 
was after me. Then I would go back to my cell, stay a while and then 
another would come and get me. They carried me where I could sleep, 
but they wouldn't let me stay there long enough to sleep. I didn't get 
no sleep until I went over to the jail, and I didn't get no sleep at jail for 
about two weeks. That was before the coroner's inquest, when I was 
first arrested. When I went back to the jail I was treated nicely. As to 
who talked to me longer Mr. Frank or Black, Mr. Black did. Mr. Arnold 
talked to me longer than Mr. Frank did on April 29th. In the southwest 
corner is some toilets for men and women. 
L. S. DOBBS, sworn for the State. 

I am a sergeant of police. On the morning of April 27th, at about 
3:25 a call came from the pencil factory that there was a murder up there. 
We went down in Boots Rogers' automobile. When we got there the 
door was locked. We knocked on the door and in about two minutes the 
negro came down the steps and opened up the door and said there was a 
woman murdered in the basement. We went through a scuttle hole, a 
small trapdoor. The negro lead the way back in the basement, to a par- 
tition on the left, leading from the elevator. The basement is about 
twenty feet wide. The negro lead the way back about one hundred fifty 
feet and we found the body. The girl was lying on her face, not directly 



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lying on her stomach, with the left side on the ground, the right side up 
just a little. We couldn't tell by looking at her whether she was white or 
black, only by her golden colored hair. They turned her over and her face 
was full of dirt and dust. They took a piece of paper and rubbed the dirt 
off of her face, and we could tell then that it was a white girl. I pulled up 
her clothes and we could tell by the skin of her knee that she was a white 
girl. Her face was punctured, full of holes and was swollen and black. 
She had a cut on the left side of her head as if she had been struck and 
there was a little blood there. The cord was around her neck, sunk into 
the flesh. She also had a piece of her underclothing around her neck. 
The cord was still tight around her neck. The tongue was protruding 

[V] 

just the least bit. I began to look around and found a couple of notes. 
The cord was pulled tight and had cut into the flesh and tied just as tight 
as it could be. The underclothing around the neck was not tight. There 
wasn't much blood on her head. It was dry on the outside. I stuck my 
finger under the hair and it was a little moist. This scratch pad (State's 
Exhibit "H") was also lying on the ground, close to the body. The body 
was lying with the head towards Forsyth Street, the head being near the 
partition. I found the notes under the sawdust, lying near the head. 
The body was that of Mary Phagan. The scratch pad was lying near the 
notes. They were all right close together. 

(Witness indicates on diagram of the State where body was found 
and identifies different parts of the building on the diagram. Witness 
states that diagram is a (State's Exhibit A) fair representation of the 
parts identified by him, i. e., main floor and stairs, basement, boiler, par- 
tition in basement, spot where notes and body were found, and of the 
entire building. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We arrived at the factory about 3:30. Lee told us it was a white 
woman. It took us some time to determine whether it was a white wo- 
man or not. We didn't know until the dust was removed from her face 
and we pulled up the clothes and looked at the skin. We did not know 
it prior to that time. We had a lantern with us. One of the officers had 
a flashlight. Both of the notes were near her head. I don't think they 
were over six or eight inches apart. No, the one written on the scratch 
pad was not attached to the pad when I found it. It was laying about ten 
or twelve inches from it, right close together, and about eight or ten 
inches from her head was the furthest note. I found the white one first, 
on the white pad. I discovered the notes on the white paper and the 
scratch pad about the same time. It was possibly five or ten minutes 
before I found the other. There was a pile of trash near the boiler where 
this hat was found and paper and pencils were down there, too. The hat 
was on the trash pile, so was the shoe. They were right close together 
on the trash pile. Everything was gone off of it, ribbons and all. It 
looked like she had been dragged by her feet on her face. I thought I 
found indications that she had been dragged in the basement, but I 
couldn't be positive. As to whether Newt Lee could have seen the body 



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from where he was standing I would think that he could have seen the 
body from where he was standing; I would think that he could have seen 
the feet and the bulk of the body, he couldn't hardly have seen the head. 
I don't think he could have seen enough of it to have seen what it was 
without coming up to it. I made an experiment in the day time to see 
whether he could see the body or not, and I found he could see the feet, 
you could see the bulk. Unless he was looking directly for someone, I 
don't think he could see it. The place where I thought I saw someone 
dragged was right in front of the elevator, directly back. It began im- 
mediately in front of the elevator, right at the bottom of the shaft. The 

[8] 

hat was possibly nearer the elevator than the shoe. That was a dirt floor 
and cinders on it scattered over the dirt. I thought the places on her face 
had been made from dragging. I think I saw a little blood on the under- 
clothing. I did not testify before the coroner that the blood ran a little 
when we moved the body. I didn't say it was liquid. The blood was dry. 
The little trail where I thought showed the body was dragged went 
straight on down where the girl was found. It was a continuous trail. 
The finger joints on her hand worked a little. Back door was shut, staple 
had been pulled. The lock was locked still, but the staple had been drawn 
out. It was a sliding door with a bar across the door, but the bar had 
been taken down. It looked like the staple had been recently drawn. I 
was reading one of the notes to Lee, with the following words: "A tall 
black negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night" and when I got to 
the word "night," Lee says, "That means the night watchman." I had 
just said the "night" I and he said" That means the night watchman." I 
think the underclothes were torn, not cut, but I am not positive. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

It was about one hundred fifty feet from the ladder to where we 
found the body. The ribbon I found was not on the hat, it was on the 
hair. We made another experiment at night to see whether Newt Lee 
could have seen the body from where he stood. We placed a bulk about 
the size of an ordinary body about the same position that this body was 
found in and you could see the bulk of the body by looking carefully by 
standing at the spot Newt Lee said he had seen it. A man couldn't get 
down that ladder with another person. It is a difficult matter for one 
person to get through the scuttle hole. The signs of dragging that I saw 
was right at the bottom of the elevator shaft, on the south side of the ele- 
vator. The signs of dragging came right around the elevator straight 
back east of the ladder, it started east of the ladder. A man going down 
the ladder to the rear of the basement would not go in front of elevator 
where dragging was. The hasp appeared to have been pulled straight 
out of the door, on the inside, it was not bent. The body was cold and 
stiff. Hands folded across the breast. I didn't find any blood on the 
ground or on the sawdust around where we found the body. Yes, the 
hasp is bent the least bit. When we got there Sunday morning, I think 
the elevator was on the second floor. We tried to make Lee run the ele- 
vator, but he said he couldn't do it. 



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FURTHER RE-DIRECT. 

I found the handkerchief about ten feet towards the rear beyond the 

body on a sawdust pile. 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I found it possibly ten or fifteen minutes after we found the body. 

The handkerchief was bloody just like it is now. 

[9] 

RECALLED FOR THE STATE. 

The trap door leading up from the basement was closed when we got 
there. There were cobwebs and dust back there. 
J. N. STARNES, sworn for the State. 

I am a city officer. Went to the pencil company's place of business 
between five and six o'clock, April 27th. The pencil company is located 
in Fulton County, Georgia. That is where the body was found. The 
staple to the back door looked as if it had been prized out with a pipe 
pressed against the wood. There was a pipe there that fitted the inden- 
tation on the wood. I called Mr. Frank on the telephone, and told him I 
wanted him to come to the pencil factory right away. He said he hadn't 
had any breakfast. He asked where the night watchman was. I told 
him it was very necessary for him to come and if he would come I would 
send an automobile for him, and I asked Boots Rogers to go for him. I 
didn't tell him what had happened, and he didn't ask me. Mr. Frank 
appeared to be nervous; this was indicated by his manner of speaking to 
Mr. Darley; he was in a trembling condition. I was guarded with him in 
my conversation over the phone. About a week afterwards I went to the 
factory and had the night watchman there, Mr. Hendricks, to show me 
about the clock. He took a new slip and put it in the clock and punched 
the slip all the way around in less than five minutes (State's Exhibit P). 
I got some cord on the second floor of the pencil factory, the knots in 
these cords are similar to the knots in this cord (State's Exhibit C). On 
the floor right at the opposite corner, what might be called the northwest 
corner of the dressing room, on Monday morning, April 28th, I saw 
splotches that looked like blood about a foot and a half or two feet from 
the end of the dressing room, some of which I chipped up. It looked like 
splotches of blood and something had been thrown there and in throw- 
ing it had spread out and splattered. There was no great amount of it. 
I should judge that the area around these spots was a foot and a half. 
The splotch looked as if something had been swept over it, some white 
substance. There is a lot of that white stuff in the metal department. 
It looked like blood. I found a nail fifty feet this side of the metal room 
toward the elevator on the second floor that looked like it had blood on 
the top of it. It was between the office and the double doors. I chipped 
two places off on the back door which looked like they had bloody finger 
prints. I don't know when Frank was arrested. I don't think he was 
arrested on Monday. He was asked to come to the station house on Mon- 
day. It takes not over three minutes to walk from Marietta Street at the 
corner of Forsyth across the viaduct and through Forsyth Street down 
to the pencil factory. Lee was composed at the factory; he never tried 



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to get away. The door to the stairs from the office floor to the third floor 
was barred when I first went up there. 

[10] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am guessing about the time. It wouldn't take over five minutes to 
get off the car, walk to the pencil factory, walk in, walk up the stairs and 
back into Mr. Frank's office. The hasp is bent a little. I heard Boots 
Rogers testify at the coroner's inquest and I testified twice. I did not 
correct any statement at the coroner's inquest that Boots Rogers made. 
I am the prosecutor in this case. I cannot give the words of the conver- 
sation of the telephone message between myself and Mr. Frank. I could 
be mistaken as to the very words he used. It was just a casual telephone 
conversation. I don't know that the splotches that I saw there were 
blood. The floor at the ladies' dressing room is a very dark color. I saw 
cord like that in the basement, but it was cut up in pieces. I saw a good 
many cords like that all over the factory. I never found the purse, or the 
flowers or the ribbon on the little girl's hat. This diagram (State's Ex- 
hibit A) is a correct diagram of second floor and basement of pencil com- 
pany and other places. No. 1 1 on diagram (State's Exhibit A) is the 
toilets. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I was guarded in what I said over the phone to Mr. Frank though it 
was just a conversation between two gentlemen. These pieces of wood 
look like what I chipped off the floor. I turned them over to Chief Lan- 
ford. (Referring to State's Exhibit E). 
RECALLED FOR THE STATE. 

I saw Mr. Rosser at the coroner's inquest. I never heard him say 
anything throughout the hearing. 
W. W. ROGERS, sworn for the State. 

I am now connected with Judge Girardeau's court. I was at the sta- 
tion house Saturday night, April 26th, and went to the National Pencil 
Company's place of business. It was between five and five thirty that I 
heard Mr. Starnes have a conversation over the phone. I heard him say, 
"If you will come I will send an automobile after you." It took us five 
or six minutes to get out to Mr. Frank's residence at 86 E. Georgia Ave- 
nue. Mr. Black was with me. Mrs. Frank opened the door. She wore a 
heavy bath robe. Mr. Black asked if Mr. Frank was in. Mr. Frank 
stepped into the hall through the curtain. He was dressed for the street 
with the exception of his collar, tie, coat and hat. He had on no vest. 
Mr. Frank asked Mr. Black if anything had happened at the factory. 
Mr. Black didn't answer. He asked me had anything happened at the 
factory. I didn't answer. Mr. Frank said, "Did the night watchman 
call up and report anything to you?" Mr. Black said, "Mr. Frank, you 
had better get your clothes on and let us go to the factory and see what 
has happened." Mr. Frank said that he thought he dreamt in the morn- 

[11] 

ing about 3 a. m. about hearing the telephone ring. Mr. Black said some- 



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thing about whiskey to Mrs. Frank in Mr. Frank's presence. Mrs. Frank 
said Mr. Frank hadn't had any breakfast and would we allow him to get 
breakfast. I told Mr. Black that I was hungry myself. Mr. Frank said 
let me have a cup of coffee. Mr. Black in a kind of sideways, said, "I 
think a drink of whiskey would do him good," and Mrs. Frank made the 
remark that she didn't think there was any whiskey in the house. Mr. 
Frank seemed to be extremely nervous. His questions were jumpy. I 
never heard him speak in my life until that morning. His voice was a 
refined voice, it was not coarse. He was rubbing his hands when he came 
through the curtains. He moved about briskly. He seemed to be ex- 
cited. He asked questions in rapid succession, but gave plenty of time 
between questions to have received an answer. Mr. Frank and Mr. Black 
got on the rear seat and I took the front seat and as I was fixing to turn 
around, one of us asked Mr. Frank if he knew a little girl by the name of 
Mary Phagan. Mr. Frank says: "Does she work at the factory ?" and I 
said, "I think she does." Mr. Frank said, "I cannot tell whether or not 
she works there until I look on my pay roll book, I know very few of the 
girls that work there. I pay them off, but I very seldom go back in the 
factory and I know very few of them, but I can look on my pay roll book 
and tell you if a girl by the name of Mary Phagan work there." One of 
us suggested that we take Mr. Frank by the undertaking establishment 
and let him see if he knew this young lady. Mr. Frank readily consented, 
so we stopped at the telephone exchange, Mr. Frank, Mr. Black and my- 
self got out and went in the undertaking establishment. I saw the corpse. 
The corpse was lying in a little kind of side out room to the right of a 
large room. The light was not lit in this little room where the body was 
laying, and Mr. Gheesling stepped in ahead of me and went around be- 
hind the corpse and lit the light above her head and her head was lying 
then towards the wall. I stepped up on the opposite side of the corpse 
with a door to my left. Mr. Gheesling caught the face of the dead girl 
and turned it over towards me. I looked then to see if anybody followed 
me and I saw Mr. Frank step from outside of the door into what I thought 
was a closet, but I have afterwards found it was where Mr. Gheesling 
slept, or where somebody slept. There was a little single bed in there. I 
immediately turned around and came back out, in front of the office. I 
didn't see Frank look at the corpse. I don't remember that Mr. Frank 
ever followed me in this room. He may have stopped on the outside of 
the door, but my back was toward him and I don't know where he 
stopped. Mr. Gheesling turned the head of the dead girl over towards me 
and I looked around to see who was behind me and I saw Mr. Frank as he 
made that movement behind me. He didn't go into the closet as far as I 
could see, but he got out of my view. He could have looked at the corpse 
from the time that Mr. Gheesling was going around behind, but he could 
not have seen her face because it was lying over towards the wall. The 
face was away from me and I presume that was the cause of Mr. Ghees- 
ling turning it over. There was some question asked Mr. Frank if he 

[12] 

knew the girl, and I think he replied that he didn't know whether he did 



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or not but that he could tell whether she worked at the factory by look- 
ing at his pay roll book. As we were leaving Mr. Frank's house, Mr. 
Frank asked Mrs. Frank to telephone Mr. Darley to come to the factory. 
Mr. Frank was apparently still nervous at the undertaking establish- 
ment, he stepped lively. It was just his general manner that indicated 
to me that he was nervous. I never saw Mr. Frank in my life until that 
morning. After we got out of Mr. Frank's house and was in my car, was 
the first time Mr. Frank had been told that the young lady was named 
Mary Phagan and that there had been any murder committed at the fac- 
tory. From the undertaker's we went to the pencil factory in my car. 
We went into Mr. Frank's office, he went up to the safe, turned the com- 
bination, opened the safe, took out his time book, laid the book down on 
the table, ran his finger down until he came to the name Mary Phagan, 
and said, "Yes, Mary Phagan worked here, she was here yesterday to 
get her pay." He said, "I will tell you about the exact time she left 
there. My stenographer left about twelve o'clock, and a few minutes 
after she left the office boy left and Mary came in and got her money and 
left." He said she got $1.20 and he asked whether anybody had found 
the envelope that the money was in. Frank still seemed to be nervous 
like the first time I seen him. It was just his quick manner of stepping 
around and his manner of speech like he had done at the house that indi- 
cated to me that he was nervous. He then wanted to see where the girl 
was found. Mr. Frank went around by the elevator, where there was a 
switch box on the wall and Mr. Frank put the switch in. The box was 
not locked. Somebody asked him if he was used to keeping the switch 
box locked. He said they had kept it locked up to a certain time until 
the insurance company told him that he would have to leave it unlocked, 
that it was a violation of the law to keep an electric switch box locked. 
We then stepped on the elevator. He still stepped about lively and spoke 
up lively, answering questions, just like he had always done. After we 
got on the elevator, he .jerked at the rope and it hung and he called Mr. 
Darley to start it and we all stepped out of the elevator. Mr. Darley 
came and pulled at the rope two or three times and the elevator started. 
As to whether anybody made any statement down in the basement as to 
who was responsible for the murder, I think Mr. Frank made the remark 
that Mr. Darley had worked Newt Lee for sometime out at the Oakland 
plant and that if Lee knew anything about the murder that Darley would 
stand a better chance of getting it out of him than anybody else. After 
we came back from the basement it was suggested that we go to the sta- 
tion house and as we started out Mr. Frank says, "I had better put in a 
new slip, hadn't I, Darley?" Darley told him yes to put in a slip. Frank 
took his keys out, unlocked the door of the right-hand clock and lifted 
out the slip, looked at it and made the remark that the slip was punched 
correctly. Mr. Darley and Newt Lee was standing there at the time Mr. 
Frank said the punches had been made correctly. Mr. Frank then put 
in a new slip, closed'the door, locked it and took his pencil and wrote on 

[13] 

the slip that he had already taken out of the machine, "April 26, 1913." 



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I looked at the slip that Mr. Frank took out (Defendant's Exhibit I), the 
first punch was 6:01, the second one was 6:32 or 6:33. He took the slip 
back in his office. I glanced all the way down and there was a punch for 
every number. While we were walking through the factory Mr. Frank 
asked two or three times to get a cup of coffee. As to what Mr. Frank 
said about the murder, I don't know that I heard him express himself 
except down in the basement. The officers showed him where the body 
was found and he made the remark that it was too bad or something to 
that effect. When we left the factory to go to police headquarters, Newt 
Lee was under arrest. I never considered Mr. Frank as being under ar- 
rest at that time. There had never been said anything to him in my pres- 
ence about putting him under arrest. Mr. Frank's appearance at the sta- 
tion house was exactly like it was when I first saw him. He stepped 
quickly, when the door of the automobile was open, he jumped lightly 
off Mr. Darley's lap, went up the steps pretty rapid. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never saw Mr. Frank until that morning. I don't know whether 
his natural movements or manner of speech were quick or not. We didn't 
know whether the girl was a white girl or not until we rubbed the dirt 
from the child's face and pulled down her stocking a little piece. The 
tongue was not sticking out, it was wedged between the teeth. She had 
dirt in her eye and mouth. The cord around her neck was drawn so tight 
it was sunk in her flesh and the piece of underskirt was loose over her 
hair. I don't know whether Mr. Frank went upstairs or not after we 
reached his house. I think he called to his wife to get him his collar and 
tie. He got his coat and vest some place, but I don't know where. At the 
time Mrs. Frank was calling Mr. Darley, Mr. Frank was putting on his 
collar and tie down in the reception hall. We were at the house 15 or 20 
minutes. After Mrs. Frank had said something about Mr. Frank getting 
his breakfast before he went, Mr. Black said something about a drink 
would do good. Mrs. Frank then called her mother, who said that there 
wasn't any liquor in the house, that Mr. Selig had an acute attack of in- 
digestion the night before and used it all up. Mr. Frank readily con- 
sented to go to the undertaker's with us. When we got in the car we told 
him it was Mary Phagan and he said he could tell whether she was an 
employee or not by looking at his book, that he knew very few of the 
girls. Yes, anybody facing the door of the little chapel at the undertak- 
er's could have seen the corpse. As to whether I know that Mr. Frank 
didn't see the corpse he could have got a glance at the whole corpse, but 
when Mr. Gheesling turned the face over no one could have got a good 
look at the face unless they stepped in the room. Mr. Gheesling turned 
the young lady's face directly toward me, Mr. Frank was standing some- 
where behind me, outside of the room. I turned around to see if Mr. 
Frank was looking. I don't know that he didn't get a glance at the 

[14] 

corpse, but no one but Mr. Gheesling and I at this moment stepped up 
and looked at the little girl's face. What Mr. Frank and Mr. Black saw 
behind my back, I can't say. I don't say that Mr. Frank stepped into 



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that dressing room, but he passed out of my view. So did Mr. Black. 
Mr. Gheesling had a better view of Mr. Black and Mr. Frank than I did, 
because my back was to them and Mr. Gheesling was looking straight 
across the body at them. Mr. Frank had no difficulty in unlocking the 
safe when we went back to the factory. The elevator we went down on 
is a freight elevator, makes considerable noise. I stops itself when it 
gets to the bottom. I don't think it hits the ground. She was lying on 
her face with her hands folded up. Her face was turned somewhat to- 
ward the left wall. A bruise on the left side of her head, some dry blood 
in her hair. One of her eyes were blackened. There were several little 
scratches on her face. Somebody worked her arms to see if they were 
stiff. The arms worked a little bit. The joints in her arms worked just 
a little bit. When we first went down the basement we stayed down there 
about 20 or 25 minutes. During that time neither the shoe, the hat, nor 
the umbrella had been found. In the elevator shaft there was some ex- 
crement. When we went down on the elevator, the elevator mashed it. 
You could smell it all around. It looked like the ordinary healthy man's 
excrement. It looked like somebody had dumped naturally; that was 
before the elevator came down. When the elevator came down after- 
wards it smashed it and then we smelled it. As to the hair of the girl 
anyone could tell at first glance that it was that of a white girl. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The body wasn't lying at the undertakers where it could have been 
seen from the door. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

At the moment the face was turned towards me, I didn't see Mr. 
Frank but I know a person couldn't have looked into the face unless he 
was somewhere close to me. I was inside and Mr. Frank never came into 
that little room. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

When the face was turned towards me, Mr. Frank stepped out of my 
vision in the direction of Mr. Gheesling's sleeping room. 
MISS GRACE HICKS, sworn for the State. 

I knew Mary Phagan nearly a year at the pencil factory. She worked 
on the second floor. I identified her body at the undertaker's Sunday 
morning, April 27th. I knew her by her hair. She was fair skinned,had 
light hair, blue eyes and was heavy built, well developed for her age. I 
worked in the metal room, the same room she worked in. Mary's ma- 
chine was right next to the dressing room, the first machine there. They 
had a separate closet for men and a separate one for ladies on that floor. 

[15] 

There was just a partition between them. In going to the office from the 
closets they would pass the dressing room and Mary's machine within 
two or three feet. Mr. Frank, during the past twelve months, would pass 
through the metal department looking around every day. Sometimes I 
would see him talking to some of the men in the office at the clocks. He 
came back to the metal room to see how the work was getting on. The 
metal is kept in a little closet back under the stair steps. I asked Mr. 



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Quinn, not Mr. Frank, if the metal had come. Saturday at twelve o'clock 
is the regular pay-day, but the week of April 26th most of the employes 
got paid off on Friday night between six and seven o'clock. I hadn't 
worked there since Wednesday. Mr. Quinn called me up and told me 
that pay-day would be Friday. The metal had not come from Monday 
to Saturday. Mary didn't work after Monday of that week. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Standing at the time clock you can't see into Mr. Frank's private 
office. A person wouldn't see from Mr. Frank's office any one coming in 
or out of the building. I worked at the factory five years. In that time 
Mr. Frank spoke to me three times. Mary Phagan worked at the factory 
with me for about a year in the same department and I never saw Mr. 
Frank speak to Mary Phagan or Mary Phagan speak to Mr. Frank. 
When Mr. Frank came through the metal department he never spoke to 
any of the girls; just went through and looked around. The three times 
Mr. Frank spoke to me were as follows: He was showing a man around 
and I was laying on my arm mighty near asleep and he says "You can 
run this machine asleep can't you," and I said," Yes, sir." Then another 
time I asked him for a quarter and he loaned me a quarter. The next time 
I met him on the street he tipped his hat to me. Mr. Frank knew my face 
or he wouldn't have spoken to me on the street. The floor in the metal 
department is awful dirty. The white stuff that they use back there gets 
all over the floors. Mr. Darley is general manager and foreman who em- 
ployes the help. Mary Phagan's hair was darker than mine. She weighed 
about 115 pounds. Sometimes we sit over at the machine and comb our 
hair and sometimes when I want to curl my hair with a poker or anything, 
I go over there to the table right by the window and light the gas and curl 
my hair. Magnolia Kennedy's hair is nearly the color of Mary Phagan's. 
The pay is given employes from a window in the packing department. 
There is paint in the polishing room, just across from the dressing room. 
The door of the polishing room is a few feet across from the dressing 
room. No paint is kept in the metal room. I have seen drops of paint on 
the floor. I have seen it leading from the door straight across from the 
dressing room out to the cooler where the women come out to get water. 
The floor all over the factory is dirty and greasy. And after two or three 
days you can't hardly tell what is on the floor after it gets mixed with the 
dirt and dust. I saw Helen Ferguson Friday, April 25th, when we were 
paid off. 

[16] 

JOHN R. BLACK, sworn for the State. 

I am a city policeman. I don't know the details of the conversation 
between Mr. Starnes and Mr. Frank over the 'phone. I didn't pay very 
much attention to it. I went over to Mr. Frank's house with Boots Rog- 
ers. Mrs. Frank came to the door. Mrs. Frank had on a bath robe. I 
stated that I would like to see Mr. Frank and about that time Mr. Frank 
stepped out from behind a curtain. His voice was hoarse and trembling 
and nervous and excited. He looked to me like he was pale. I had met 
Mr. Frank on two different occasions before. On this occasion he seemed 



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to be nervous in handling his collar. He could not get his tie tied, and 
talked very rapid in asking questions in regard to what had happened. 
He wanted to know if he would have time to get something to eat, to get 
some breakfast. He wanted to know if something had happened at the 
pencil factory and if the night watchman had reported it, and he asked 
this last question before I had time to answer the first. He kept insisting 
for a cup of coffee. When we got into the automobile as Mr. Rogers was 
turning around Mr. Frank wanted to know what had happened at the 
factory, and I asked him if he knew Mary Phagan and told him that she 
had been found dead in the basement of the pencil factory. Mr. Frank 
said he didn't know any girl by the name of Mary Phagan, that he knew 
very few of the employes. I suggested to Mr. Rogers that we drive by the 
undertaker's. In the undertaking establishment Mr. Frank looked at 
her. He gave a casual glance at her and stepped aside. I couldn't say 
whether he saw the face of the girl or not. There was a curtain hanging 
near the room and Mr. Frank stepped behind the curtain. He could get 
no view from behind the curtain. He walked behind the curtain and came 
right out. Mr. Frank stated as we left the undertaking establishment 
that he didn't know the girl but he believed he had paid her off on Satur- 
day. He thought he recognized her being at the factory on Saturday by 
the dress that she wore but he could tell by going over to the factory and 
looking at his cash book. At the pencil factory Mr. Frank took the slip 
out, looked over it and said it had been punched correctly. On Monday 
and Tuesday following Mr. Frank stated that the clock had been mis- 
punched three times. This slip was turned over to Chief Lanford on 
Monday. I saw Mr. Frank take it out of the clock and went back with it 
toward his office. I don't know of my own personal knowledge that it 
was turned over to Chief Lanford Monday. When Mr. Frank was down 
at police station on Monday morning Ar. Rosser and Mr. Haas were there. 
About 8 or 8:30 o'clock Monday morning Mr. Rosser came in police head- 
quarters. That's the first time he had counsel with him. That morning 
Mr. Haslett and myself went to Mr. Frank's house and asked him to come 
down to police headquarters. About 1 1:30 Monday Mr. Haas demanded 
of Chief Lanford that officers accompany Mr. Frank out to his residence 
and search his residence. Mr. Haas stated in Frank's presence that he 
was Mr. Frank's attorney and demanded to show that there was nothing 
left undone, that we go out to Mr. Frank's house and search for anything 

[17] 

that we might find in connection with the case. On Tuesday night Mr. 
Scott and myself suggested to Mr. Frank to talk to Newt Lee. Mr. Frank 
spoke well of the negro, said he had always found him trusty and honest. 
They went in a room and stayed from about 5 to 10 minutes alone. I 
couldn't hear enough to swear that I understood what was said. Mr. 
Frank stated that Newt still stuck to the story that he knew nothing 
about it. Mr. Frank stated that Mr. Gantt was there on Saturday even- 
ing and that he told Newt Lee to let him go and get the shoes but to watch 
him, as he knew the surroundings of the office. After this conversation 
Gantt was arrested. Frank made no objections to talking to Newt Lee. 



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Mr. Frank was nervous on Monday. After his release Monday he seemed 
very jovial. On Tuesday night Frank said at station house that there 
was nobody at factory at 6 o'clock, but Newt Lee and that Newt ought to 
know more about it, as it was his duty to look over factory every thirty 
minutes. Also that Gantt was there Saturday evening and he left him 
there at 6 o'clock and that he and Gantt had some trouble previous to 
discharge of Gantt and that he at first refused to allow Gantt to go in 
factory, but Gantt told him he left a pair of shoes there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

When I said that Mr. Frank was released I spoke before I thought. 
I retracted it on cross-examination. I don't know that Mr. Rosser was at 
the police station between 8 and 8:30 Monday morning, I said that to the 
best of my recollection. I wouldn't swear Mr. Rosser was there. I heard 
Mr. Rosser say to Mr. Frank to give them a statement without a confer- 
ence at all between Mr. Frank and Mr. Rosser. I said that we wanted to 
have a private talk with Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. I 
wanted to talk to Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. While I 
was at the coroner's inquest Mr. Frank answered every question readily. 
I wouldn't swear positively, but to the best of my recollection I had a 
conversation with Mr. Frank on two previous occasions. When I met 
Mr. Frank on previous occasions I don't remember anything that caused 
me to believe he was nervous, nothing unusual about him. I heard the 
conversation Mr. Starnes had over the telephone with Mr. Frank early 
that morning. It was about a quarter to six, or a quarter past six. I 
think we got to the undertaker's about 6:20. As to the reason why I 
didn't tell Mr. Frank about the murder when I was inside the house, but 
did tell him as soon as he got in the automobile, I had a conversation with 
Newt Lee and I wanted to watch Mr. Frank and see how he felt about the 
murder. Mr. Frank didn't go upstairs and put his collar and cravat on. 
Mrs. Frank brought him his collar and tie, I don't know where she got 
them. He told her to bring his collar and tie and he got his coat and hat. 
I don't know whether he went back to his home or not. He put his collar 
and tie on right there. I don't know where he got his coat and vest at. I 
don't know what sort of tie or collar he had. He put his collar and tie on 
like anybody else would; tied it himself. I don't know whether Mr. 

[18] 

Frank finished dressing upstairs or not. I couldn't see him when he went 
behind those curtains. We stayed at the Frank home about ten minutes. 
At the undertaking establishment I was right behind Mr. Frank. He was 
between me and the body. I saw the face when the undertaker turned 
her over. Yes, Mr. Frank being in front of me had an opportunity to see 
it also. No, Mr. Frank didn't go into that sleeping room. Mr. Frank 
went out just ahead of me. When we went back to the pencil factory Mr. 
Frank went to the safe and unlocked it readily at the first effort. He got 
the book, put it on the table, opened it at the right place, ran his finger 
down until he came to the name of Mary Phagan and says, "Yes, this lit- 
tle girl worked here and I paid her $1.20 yesterday." We went all over 
the factory that day. Nobody saw that blood spot that morning. I guess 



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there must have been thirty people there during that day. Nobody saw 
it. I was there twice that day. Mr. Starnes was there with me. He didn't 
call attention to any blood spots. Chie Lanford was there, and he didn't 
discover any blood spots. Mr. Frank was at the police station on Monday 
from 8:30 until about 1 1:30. Mr. Frank told me he had discharged Mr. 
Gantt on account of shortage and had given orders not to let him in the 
factory. As regards Mr. Frank's linen, Mr. Haas said he was Mr. Frank's 
attorney and requested that we go to Mr. Frank's house and look over 
the clothes he had worn the week before and the laundry too. Yes, we 
went out there and examined it. Mr. Frank had had no opportunity to 
telephone his house from the time we mentioned it until we got out there. 
He went with us and showed us the dirty linen. I examined Newt Lee's 
house. I found a bloody shirt in the bottom of a clothes barrel there on 
Tuesday morning about 9 o'clock. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank had told me that he didn't think Newt Lee had told all he 
knew about the murder. He also said after looking over the time sheet 
and seeing that it hadn't been punched correctly that that would have 
given Lee an hour to have gone out to his house and back. I don't know 
when he made this last statement. I don't remember whether that was 
before or after I went out to Lee's house and found the shirt. We went 
into his house with a skeleton key. It was after Frank told me about the 
skips in the punches. The shirt is just like it was the day I found it. The 
blood looks like it is on both sides of the shirt. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know whether I went out to Lee's house before or after Mr. 
Frank suggested the skips in the time slips. I don't like to admit it, but 
I am so crossed up and worried that I don't know where I am at, but I 
think to the best of my knowledge it was Monday that Frank said that 
the slips had been changed. 

[19] 

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, re-called for the State. 

Mary carried a little silver mesh bag the day she left her home, made 

of German silver. This looks like the handkerchief that she carried. 

(State's Exhibit" M." ) 

J. M. GANTT, sworn for the State. 

From June last until the first of January I was shipping clerk at the 

National Pencil Company. I was discharged April 7th by Mr. Frank for 

alleged shortage in the pay roll. I have known Mary Phagan when she 

was a little girl. Mr. Frank knew her, too. One Saturday afternoon she 

came in the office to have her time corrected, and after I had gotten 

through Mr. Frank came in and said, "You seem to know Mary pretty 

well," No, I had not told him her name. I used to know Mary when she 

was a little girl, but I have not seen her up to the time I went to work for 

the factory. My work was in the office and she worked in the rear of the 

building on the same floor in the tip department. After I was discharged, 

I went back to the factory on two occasions. Mr. Frank saw me both 

times. He made no objection to my going there. One girl used to get pay 



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envelopes for another girl with Mr. Frank's knowledge. There was an 
alleged shortage in the pay roll of $2.00. Mr. Frank came to see me about 
it and I told him I didn't know anything about it, and he said he wasn't 
going to make it good, and I said I wasn't, and he then discharged me. 
Prior to my being discharged Mr. Frank told me he had the best office 
force he ever had. I was the time keeper. Mr. Frank could sit at his 
desk and see the employees register at the time clock if the safe door was 
closed. Mr. Frank did not fix the clock frequently, possibly two or three 
times. On April 26th, about six o'clock I saw Newt Lee sitting out in 
front of the factory and I remembered that I left a pair of shoes up there 
and I asked Newt Lee what about my getting them, and he said he 
couldn't let me up. I said Mr. Frank is up there, isn't he? because I had 
seen him in the window from across the street, and while we were stand- 
ing there talking, in two or three minutes, Mr. Frank was coming down 
the stairway and got within fifteen feet of the door when he saw me and 
when he saw me he kind of stepped back like he was going to go back, 
but when he looked up and saw that I was looking at him he came on out, 
and I said "Howdy, Mr. Frank," and he kind of jumped again. I told 
him I had a pair of shoes up there I would like to get and he said, "Do 
you want to go with me, or will Newt Lee be all right?" and he kind of 
studied a little bit, and said, "What kind of shoes were they?" and I 
said, "They were tan shoes," and he said, "I think I saw a negro sweep- 
ing them up the other day." And I said, "Well, I have a pair of black 
ones there, too," and he kind of studied a little bit, and said "Newt, go 
ahead with him and stay with him until he gets his shoes," and I went up 
there and found both pair right where I had left them. Mr. Frank looked 

[20] 

pale, hung his head, and nervous and kind of hesitated and stuttered like 
he didn't like me in there somehow or other. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I testified at the coroner's inquest. I admit I did not testify about 
Frank's knowing Mary very well there, that has been recalled to my 
mind since I was arrested on Monday, April 28th, at 1 1 o'clock and held 
until Thursday night about six. 
MRS. J. A. WHrTE, sworn for the State. 

I saw my husband at the pencil factory at 1 1 :30. I stayed there un- 
til about 10 minutes to 12. I left him there and came back about 12:30 
and left again about 1 o'clock. When I got there at 11:30 I saw Miss 
Hall, the stenographer, Mr. Frank and two men. I asked Mr. Frank if I 
could see my husband Mr. White. Mr. Frank was in the outside office 
then. He said I could see him and sent word by Mrs. Emma Freeman for 
him to come down-stairs. My husband came to the foot of the stairs on 
the second floor. I talked to him about 15 minutes and went on out. I 
returned about 12:30. Mr. Frank was in the outside office standing in 
front of the safe. I asked him if Mr. White had gone back to work. He 
jumped like I surprised him and turned and said, "Yes." It wasn't 
much of a jump. I went upstairs then to see Mr. White. Harry Denham 
was with him working on the fourth floor. They were hammering. It 



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was not a continuous noise they were making. I heard the. hammer not 
more than once or twice. Mr. Frank came upstairs while I was up there, 
somewhere about 1 o'clock. I know it was before one because at one I 
was at McDonald's furniture store, four or five blocks from the factory. 
I got there a few minutes after one. Mr. Frank told Mr. White if I 
wanted to get out before 3 o'clock, to come on down because he was going 
to leave and lock the door, that I had better be ready to go as soon as he 
got his coat and hat. I went on out and as I passed he was sitting in the 
outside office writing at a table. As I was going on down the steps I saw 
a negro sitting on a box close to the stairway on the first floor. Mr. 
Frank did not have his coat or hat on when I passed out. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I left the factory about 1 o'clock. I wouldn't say that it was posi- 
tively ten minutes to one. While I was talking to my husband at the fac- 
tory, Miss Corinthia Hall, May Barrett and her daughter were there. 
Mrs. Barrett had been upstairs and her daughter came down afterwards. 
Miss Hall and Mrs. Freeman left first, Mrs. Barrett and her daughter left 
next and then I went. That was about ten minutes to twelve. I saw the 
negro sitting between the stairway and the door about five or six feet 
from the foot of the stairway. I wouldn't be able to identify him. 

[21] 

HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State. 

I am Superintendent of the local branch of the Pinkerton Detective 
Agency. I have worked on this case with John Black, city detective. I 
was employed by Mr. Frank representing the National Pencil Company. 
I saw Mr. Frank Monday afternoon, April 28th, at the pencil factory. We 
went into Mr. Frank's private office. Mr. Darley and a third party were 
with us. Mr. Frank said, I guess you read in the newspapers about the 
horrible crime that was committed in this factory, and the directors of 
this company and myself have had a conference and thought that the 
public should demand that we have an investigation made, and endeavor 
to determine who is responsible for this murder." And Mr. Frank then 
said he had just come from police barracks and that Detective Black 
seemed to suspect him of the crime, and he then related to me his move- 
ments on Saturday, April 26th, in detail. He stated that he arrived at 
the factory at 8 a. m., that he left the factory between 9:30 and 10 with 
Mr. Darley for Montag Bros, for the mail, that he remained at Montag 
Bros, for about an hour; that he returned to the factory at about 1 1 
o'clock, and just before twelve o'clock Mrs. White, the wife of Arthur 
White, who was working on the top floor of the building that day with 
Harry Denham, came in and asked permission to go upstairs and see her 
husband. Mr. Frank granted her permission to do so. He then stated 
that Mary Phagan came in to the factory at 12:10 p. m. to draw her pay; 
that she had been laid off the Monday previous and she was paid $1.20; 
that he paid her off in his inside office where he was at his desk, and when 
she left his office and went in the outer office, she had reached the outer 
office door, leading into the hall and turned around to Mr. Frank and 
asked if the metal had come yet; Mr. Frank replied that he didn't know 



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and that Mary Phagan then he thought reached the stairway, and he 
heard voices, but he could not distinguish whether they were men or girls 
talking, that about 12:50 he went up to the fourth floor and asked White 
and Denham when they would finish up their work and they replied they 
wouldn't finish up for a couple of hours; that Mrs. White was up there at 
the time and Frank informed Mrs. White that he was going to lock up the 
factory, that she had better leave; Mrs. White preceded Mr. Frank down 
the stairway and went on out of the factory as far as he knew, but on the 
way out, Mrs. White made the statement that she had seen a negro on 
the street floor of the building behind some boxes, and Mr. Frank stated 
that at 1 : 10 p. m. he left the factory for home to go to luncheon; he ar- 
rived at the factory again at 3 p. m., went to work on some financial work 
and at about four o'clock the night watchman reported for work, as per 
Mr. Frank's instructions the previous day; that he allowed Newt Lee to 
go out and have a good time for a couple of hours and report again at six 
o'clock, which Newt did and at six o'clock when Lee returned to the fac- 
tory, he asked Mr. Frank, as he usually did, if everything was all right, 
and Mr. Frank replied "Yes" and Lee went on about his business. Mr. 
Frank left the factory at 6:04 p. m. and when he reached the street door 

[22] 

entrance he found Lee talking to Gantt, an ex-book-keeper who Frank 
had discharged for thieving. Mr. Frank stated that he had arrived home 
at about 6:25 p. m. and knowing that he had discharged Gantt, he tried to 
get Lee on the telephone at about 6:30; knowing that Lee would be in the 
vicinity of the time clock at that time and could hear the telephone ring; 
that he did not succeed in getting him at 6:30, but that he got him at 
seven; that he asked Lee the question if Gantt had left the factory and if 
everything was all right, to which Lee replied "Yes," and he hung up 
the receiver. Mr. Frank stated he went to bed somewhere around 9:30. 
After that Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley accompanied me around the 
factory and showed me what the police had found. Mr. Darley being the 
spokesman. We went first to the metal room on the second floor, where I 
was shown some spots supposed to be blood spots, they were already 
chipped up, and I was taken to a machine where some strands of hair 
were supposed to have been found. From there we went down and exam- 
ined the time clock and went through the scuttle hole and down the lad- 
der into the basement, where I was shown where everything had been 
found. As to Mr. Frank's manner and deportment at the time we were 
in his office, he seemed to be perfectly natural. I saw no signs of nervous- 
ness. Occasionally between words he seemed to take a deep breath, and 
deep sighs about four or five times. His eyes were very large and pierc- 
ing. They looked about the same they do now. He was a little pale. He 
gave his narrative rather rapidly. As to whether he stated any fixed 
definite time as to hours or minutes, he didn't state any definite time as 
to when Mary Phagan came in, he said she came in at about 12:10. We 
furnished attorneys for Frank with reports. After refreshing my mem- 
ory I now state that Mr. Frank informed me at the time I had that con- 
versation with him that he heard these voices before 12 o'clock, before 



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Mary Phagan came. He also stated during our conversation that Gantt 
knew Mary Phagan very well, that he was familiar and intimate with 
her. He seemed to lay special stress on it at the time. He said that Gantt 
paid a good deal of attention to her. As to whether anything was said 
by any attorney of Frank's as to our suppressing any evidence as to this 
murder, it was the first week in May when Mr. Pierce and I went to Mr. 
Herbert J. Haas' office in the 4th National Bank Building and had a con- 
ference with him as to the Pinkerton Agency's position in the matter. 
Mr. Haas stated that he would rather we would submit our reports to him 
first before we turned it over to the public and let them know what evi- 
dence we had gathered. We told him we would withdraw before we 
would adopt any practice of that sort, that it was our intention to work 
in hearty co-operation with the police. 

I saw the place near the girls' dressing room on the office floor, fresh 
chips had already been cut out of the floor and I saw white smeared 
where the chips had been cut out and there were also some dark spots 
near the chipped out places. It was just as though somebody had taken 
a cloth and rubbed some white substance around in a circle, about eight 
inches in diameter. This white stuff covered all of the dark spots. I 

[23] 

didn't note any unusual signs of nervousness about Frank in his office. 
There wasn't any trembling or anything of that sort at that time. He 
was not composed. On Tuesday night, April 29th, Black, Mr. Frank and 
myself were together and Mr. Black told Mr. Frank that he believed 
Newt Lee was not telling all that he knew. I also said to Mr. Frank that 
Newt knew more than he was telling, and that as he was his employer, I 
thought he could get more out of the nigger than we could, and I asked 
him if he would consent to go into a room as employer and employee and 
try to get it out of him. Mr. Frank readily consented and we put them in 
a private room, they were together there for about ten minutes alone. 
When about ten minutes was up, Mr. Black and I entered the room and 
Lee hadn't finished his conversation with Frank and was saying, "Mr. 
Frank it is awful hard for me to remain handcuffed to this chair," and 
Frank hung his head the entire time the negro was talking to him, and 
finally in about thirty seconds, he said, "Well, they have got me too." 
After that we asked Mr. Frank if he had gotten anything out of the negro 
and he said, "No, Lee still sticks to his original story," Mr. Frank was 
extremely nervous at that time. He was very squirmy in his chair, cross- 
ing one leg after the other and didn't know where to put his hands; he 
was moving them up and down his face, and he hung his head a great 
deal of the time while the negro was talking to him. He breathed very 
heavily and took deep swallows, and sighed and hesitated somewhat. 
His eyes were about the same as they are now. That interview between 
Lee and Frank took place shortly after midnight, Wednesday, April 30th. 
On Monday afternoon, Frank said to me that the first punch on Newt 
Lee's slip was 6:33 p. m., and his last punch was 3 a. m. Sunday. He 
didn't say anything at that time about there being any error in Lee's 
punches. Mr. Black and I took Mr. Frank into custody about 1 1 :30 a. m. 



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Tuesday, April 29th. His hands were quivering very much, he was very 
pale. On Saturday, May 3d, I went to Frank's cell at the jail with Black 
and I asked Mr. Frank if from the time he arrived at the factory from 
Montag Bros, up until 12:50 p. m., the time he went upstairs to the fourth 
floor, was he inside of his office the entire time, and he stated "Yes." 
Then I asked him if he was inside his office every minute from 12 o'clock 
until 12:30 and he said "Yes." I made a very thorough search of the 
area around the elevator and radiator and back in there. I made a sur- 
face search. I found nothing at all. I found no ribbon or purse, or pay 
envelope, or bludgeon or stick. I spent a great deal of time around the 
trap door and I remember running the light around the door way right 
close to the elevator, looking for splotches of blood, but I found nothing. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Yes, I sent you this report as to what happened between Mr. Herbert 
J. Haas and myself: "This afternoon Supt. H. B. Pierce and myself held 
a conference with Mr. Herbert Haas, at which the agency's position in 
the matter was discussed, and Mr. Haas stated they wanted to learn who 

[24] 

the murderer was, regardless of who it involved." Mr. Haas told me 
that after I had told him we would withdraw from the cause before we 
would not co-operate with the police. No, I did not report that to you. I 
reported the motive of our conference. No, I did not say anything about 
Mr. Haas wanting us to do anything except locate the murderer. Yes, I 
talked to you afterwards and you also told me to find the murderer, even 
if it was Frank. Mr. Haas had said to Mr. Pierce and me that he would 
rather that we submit our reports of evidence to him before we turned it 
over to the police. No, there was nothing said about not giving this to 
the police. I testified at the coroner's inquest as to what conversation I 
had with Mr. Frank. I did not give you in my report the details of Mr. 
Frank's morning movements, when he left home, arrived at the factory 
and went to Montag Bros., and returned to the factory. As to my not 
saying one word about Gantt being familiar with this little girl, that was 
just an oversight, that is all. No, I did not testify to that either at the 
coroner's inquest. I didn't put it in the report to you, because Gantt was 
released the next day and I didn't consider him a suspect. There was no 
reason for my not giving it to you. It was an oversight. I am represent- 
ing the National Pencil Company, who employed me, and not Mr. Frank 
individually. It is true in my report to you with reference to the inter- 
view between me and Mr. Frank that I stated "I had no way of knowing 
what they said because they were both together privately in a room there 
and we had no way of knowing except what Lee told us afterwards." I 
now state that I did hear the last words of Lee. I didn't put in my notes 
that Gantt was familiar with Mary Phagan, I don't put everything in my 
notes and the coroner didn't examine me about it either. No, I didn't 
tell the coroner anything about Frank crossing his legs and putting his 
hands up to his face. I never went into detail down there. No I didn't 
mention his hanging his head. We always work with the police on crim- 
inal cases. No, I did not testify before the coroner about any white stuff 



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having been smeared over those supposed blood spots. I am not sure 
whether I got the statement about Mary Phagan being familiar with 
Gantt from Mr. Darley or Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank was present at the time. 
Mr. Frank told me when the little girl asked if the metal had come back 
that he said "I don't know." It may be true that I swore before the 
coroner that in answer to that question from Mary Phagan as to whether 
the metal had come yet that Frank said, "No," and it is possible that I 
so reported to you. If I said "No," I meant "I don't know." I say now 
that Mr. Frank told me he left the factory at 1 : 10 p. m. If I reported to 
you that he told me he left at one o'clock, I made a very serious mistake. 
That is an oversight. Yes, I reported to the police before I reported to 
Mr. Haas or Mr. Montag. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Yes, our agency reported to the police about finding the club. I find 
it is in our report of May 15th. I don't know when it was reported; I was 

[25] 

out of town. I worked all through this case with Detective Black and 
every move he made was known to both of us. As to the stairway from 
the basement to the upper floor, there was a great deal of dust on the 
stairs and the dust didn't seem to be disturbed. This stairway is not in 
the picture but is near the back door. It was nailed and closed. 
MISS MONTEEN STOVER, sworn for the State. 
I worked at the National Pencil Company prior to April 25th, 1913. 
I was at the factory at five minutes after twelve on that day. I stayed 
there five minutes and left at ten minutes after twelve. I went there to 
get my money. I went in Mr. Frank's office. He was not there. I didn't 
see or hear anybody in the building. The door to the metal room was 
closed. I had on tennis shoes, a yellow hat and a brown rain coat. I 
looked at the clock on my way up, it was five minutes after twelve and it 
was ten minutes after twelve when I started out. I had never been in his 
office before. The door to the metal room is sometimes open and some- 
times closed. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I didn't look at the clock to see what time it was when I left home or 
when I got back home. I didn't notice the safe in Mr. Frank's office. I 
walked right in and walked right out. I went right through into the 
office and turned around and came out. I didn't notice how many desks 
were in the outer office. I didn't notice any wardrobe to put clothes in. 
I don't know how many windows are in the front office. I went through 
the first office into the second office. The factory was still and quiet when 
I was there. I am fourteen years old and I worked on the fourth floor of 
the factory. I knew the paying-off time was twelve o'clock on Saturday 
and that is why I went there. They don't pay off in the office, you have 
to go up to a little window they open. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The door to the metal room is sometimes closed and sometimes open. 
When the factory isn't running the door is closed. 
R. P. BARRETT, sworn for the State. 



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I am a machinist for the National Pencil Company. I have been 
there about eight weeks. On Monday morning, April 28th, I found an 
unusual spot that I had never seen before at the west end of the dressing 
room on the second floor of the pencil factory. That spot was not there 
Friday. The spot was about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and little spots 

[26] 

behind these from the rear-6 or 8 in number. I discovered these be- 
tween 6:30 and 7 o'clock Monday. It was blood. It looked like some 
white substance had been wiped over it. We kept potash and haskoline, 
both white substances, on this floor. This white stuff was smeared over 
the spots. It looked like it had been smeared with a coarse broom. 
There was a broom on that floor, leaning up against the wall. No, the 
broom didn't show any evidence of having been used, except that it was 
dirty. It was used in the metal department for cleaning up the grease. 
The floor was regularly swept with a broom of finer straw. I found some 
hair on the handle of a bench lathe. The handle was in the shape of an 
"L." The hair was hanging on the handle, swinging down. Mell Stan- 
ford saw this hair. The hair was not there on Friday. The gas jet that 
the girls sometimes use to curl their hair on is about ten feet from the 
machine where the hair was found. Machine Number is No. 10. It is my 
machine. I know the hair wasn't there on Friday, for I had used that 
machine up to quitting time, 5:30. There was a pan of haskoline about 8 
feet from where the blood was found. The nearest potash was in vats in 
the plating department, 20 or 25 feet away. The latter part of the week 
I found a piece of a pay envelope (State's Exhibit U) under Mary Pha- 
gan's machine. I have examined the area around the elevator on the 
main floor and I looked down the ladder and I never saw any stick. I 
did not find any envelope or blood or anything else there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never searched for any blood spots before, until Miss Jefferson 
came in and said she understood Mary had been murdered in the metal 
department, then I started to search right away; that was the only spot 
I could find; I could tell it was blood by looking at it. I can tell the dif- 
ference between blood and other substances. I found the hair some few 
minutes afterward-about 6 or 8 strands of hair and pretty long. When 
I left the machine on Friday I left a piece of work in there. When I got 
back the piece of work was still there. It had not been disturbed. The 
machine was in the same position in which I left it Friday night; there 
was no blood under this machine. There is no number or amount on the 
envelope I found, and no name on it, just a little loop, a part of a letter. 
Yes, I have been aiding Mr. Dorsey and the detectives search the build- 
ing. Yes, Mr. Dorsey subpoenaed me to come to his office; it was a State 
subpoena. I gave him an affidavit. 
MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State. 

I have been working at the National Pencil Company a little over 
two years. I swept the whole floor in the metal room on Friday, April the 
25th. On Monday thereafter I found a spot that had some white hasko- 
line over it on second floor near dressing room. That wasn't there on 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

[27] 

Friday when I swept between 9 and 12 o'clock. I use a small broom in 
sweeping. I saw a big cane broom standing by the waste metal room on 
Monday about six feet from where the blood was found. The spot looked 
to me like it was blood, with dark spots scattered around. It looked like 
the large broom had been used in putting the haskoline on the floor by 
the impressions or scratches of the cane in the floor. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was a sweeper in the metal room. Yes, they have regular negro 
sweepers there for the building. I swept it all up because the negro 
wasn't there. It took me from 9 till 12 to sweep the whole floor. I moved 
everything and swept everything. I swept under Mary Phagan's and 
Barrett's machine. Next to the ladies' closet they store a lot of different 
things, mineral paints, barrels, boxes, all sort of things. That's part of 
the metal room where they are kept. I swept clear up to the doors of the 
toilets and clear up to the paint shop. It wasn't my duty to sweep where 
the machines are and where Mary worked but I did sweep there anyhow. 
I have done that several times before. There were paint spots in several 
different places up there when I swept up Friday. These blood spots 
were right in front of the ladies' dressing room. They led right up to the 
door. 

MRS. GEORGE W. JEFFERSON, sworn for the State. 
I worked at the National Pencil Company. We saw blood on the sec- 
ond floor in front of the girls' dressing room on Monday. It was about as 
big as a fan, and something white was over it. I didn't see that blood 
there Friday. Yes, there are cords in the polishing room, used to tie 
pencils with. They are hung up on a post in the polishing room. The 
spots were dark red in color. These cords are taken off the pencils and 
we throw them on a nail. We don't untie the knots. This loop right here 
is in all of the cords. I work in the polishing room, polishing lead pen- 
cils. I have been working there five years. We use paint in there, ma- 
roon red, red line and bright red. Of course you can tell the bright red 
from maroon red and the red line from maroon red. That spot that I 
saw was not one of these three paints. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Barrett and I discovered that spot there together. Yes, that is a 
dirty, greasy floor. You can see grease, but you don't see anything red 
on the floor-not in the metal room. You do in the polishing room. The 
paints don't come from the metal room. They are kept back in the other 
room. We carry the paint back in bottles. Of course if a bottle would 
break the paint would get all over the floor. The white stuff there didn't 
hide the red at all. You could see it plainly. 

[28] 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The pencils are painted on the third floor. There isn't any paint used 
at all in the factory only in the polishing room, except on the third floor. 
B. B. HASLETT, sworn for the State. 



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I went to Mr. Frank's house Monday morning after the murder, 
about 7 o'clock. I went out there and got him and took him to the sta- 
tion house. He was at the station house two or three hours. I told him 
Chief Lanford wanted to see him. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I saw Mr. Rosser and Mr. Haas at the station house about 8:30 or 9 
o'clock. Mr. Black and I both went out for Mr. Frank Monday morning. 
We took him to the station house and turned him over to Chief Lanford. 
They had Mr. Frank in there and a half dozen detectives, and Mr. Haas 
and you were there. When we went out to Mr. Frank's house he went 
with us. As to whether he had to go or not, I suppose if he had resisted 
we would have taken him. It was not a question as to whether he wanted 
to go or not, but he didn't know he had to go. As to why two of us went 
out after him-two of us generally go together after anybody, because if 
he don't go voluntarily, he would go anyhow, we would take him. 
E. F. HOLLO WAY, sworn for the State. 
I am day watchman at the National Pencil factory-worked there 
two years. I was there on April 26th, from 6:30 a. m. till 1 1 :45. I look 
after the elevator and freight that come in and out and people that come 
in and out. As to what I did to the elevator on that Saturday, I didn't do 
anything except that when Mr. White and Mr. Denham were working on 
the top floor, I started the elevator up and ripped up a plank for them. 
The elevator was locked when I sawed that plank for them, but when I 
left it was unlocked. I locked it Friday night when I left there. But I 
went off from there Saturday and forgot to lock it. When I made that 
affidavit for you on May 12th, 1913, 1 forgot to tell you that I did some 
sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham. The elevator was standing on 
the office floor when I left there Saturday. I left it standing right there. 
I had done some sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham just before I left 
and in talking to them I went off and forgot to lock it. In affidavit signed 
May 12th, 1913, in presence of Starnes, Campbell and others, in answer 
to question, "Is the power box left locked or unlocked?" I will say I 
locked it Friday when I left there. I don't remember saying in this affi- 
davit that if the elevator box was kept unlocked on account of insurance 
companies requiring it that I never heard of it, that they always told me 
to lock it. I don't remember any questions being asked me about any 
keys. I read and signed my name to that paper before I signed it. I 

[29] 

don't remember stating that I locked it Saturday. I did say in that affi- 
davit it is kept locked all the time. The reason I said at the coroner's in- 
quest that the elevator box was always locked and that I left it locked on 
Saturday was because I forgot to tell about that sawing. I did that saw- 
ing just before I left there Saturday. Friday evening I never heard Mr. 
Frank say anything to Newt Lee. When I left the factory at 1 1 :45 on 
Saturday Mr. Frank said to me "You can go ahead if you want to; we 
will all go at noon." At about 9:30 Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley went over 
to Montag Bros. I have seen Gantt talking to Mary Phagan frequently. 
The stairs leading from the first floor into the basement are in good con- 



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dition. They haven't been used this year. They have been nailed up all 
the year. The area on first floor around trap-door down there was cleaned 
up about two weeks after the insurance people came over and went 
through the building. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Denham and Mr. White were working there Saturday, up on the 
fourth floor. They were up there when I left the building. Anybody 
could have walked from the fourth floor to the second floor all day long; 
there was no obstruction. A man at the stairway on the third floor can 
see the second floor in front of the clock. The front doors were unlocked 
all the morning and they were still unlocked when I left. When Mr. Den- 
ham and Mr. White asked me to saw some timber for them that morning, 
I went and got the key and unlocked the motor that runs the elevator. I 
left it unlocked after that. Anybody could have started the elevator run- 
ning then by throwing in the switch. I am familiar with the floor back 
there in the metal department. It is a very dirty, greasy, stained up floor 
-there isn't a worse one in town. Whenever you walk along there you 
will fall down if you are not very particular. The floor has never been 
washed all the three years that I have been there. You see the analines 
and white stuff scattered all over the floor every day and the sweepers 
just sweep it along together. You see spots on the floor quite frequently. 
We work about 100 girls in the factory. Four or five of them work in the 
metal room. There is a ladies' dressing room right there where they 
chipped up the spots, and right across from there is the toilet, not over 
six feet from it. I have seen blood spots frequently ever since I have 
been working there around the ladies' toilets and the ladies' dressing 
rooms; the foreladies would always tell me about it and I have often 
noticed it when we were working or sweeping or anything of the kind, 
and I would know what it meant. I would go back and have it cleaned. 
These spots that Barrett claims to have found I don't recall having 
noticed before; they would not have attracted my attention. They were 
right on the way to the ladies' dressing room. Yes, this man Barrett dis- 
covered mighty near everything that was discovered in the building- 
hair, blood, and pay envelope. That is what he says. No, I have never 
seen Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I was at the factory at 6:30 Sat- 

[30] 

urday morning. I was the first man that got there. Denham and White 
came in about 7 o'clock and went up on the fourth floor. They were do- 
ing some work up there. I had to saw that plank for them. They told me 
that it would take them until about 3 o'clock. The office boy, Alonzo 
Mann, 13 or 14 years old, came in next. Mr. Frank came in about 8:30 or 
8:45. He went right in his office, unlocked his safe and got out his books 
and went to work on them. Mr. Darley was the next one that came in and 
Miss Mattie Smith the next. She stayed about 10 minutes and went out 
again. I met Miss Corinthia Hall and Miss Emma Clark at the corner of 
Hunter and Broad coming toward the factory just as I was leaving. Miss 
Clark asked me if anybody was there-said she wanted her wrap, it was 
turning cold, and I said, "Yes, Mr. Frank will let you have it." There 



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were several others came in that morning, but they came in while I was 
up stairs with Mr. White and Mr. Denham. There was no lock at all on 
the metal room door. Newt Lee closed up the building Friday. He looks 
after all the doors and windows plumb back to the back door in the base- 
ment. There were 7 or 8 negroes about the building, elevator boys and 
sweepers. On Saturday they paid off at 12 o'clock, right at the clock. 
Mr. Frank would always be in his office attending to his books when they 
paid off. We put up a sign saying that the paying off would be done Fri- 
day night instead of Saturday, because Saturday was a holiday. We put 
four signs on every floor. Elevator shaft is closed by sliding doors. Any- 
body can raise them, they are not locked. It is very dark around the ele- 
vator shaft on the first floor, filled with boxes all around there. We have 
two clocks. One runs to 100 and the others runs from 100 to 200. Each 
employe has a number. That is the reason we have two clocks. When 
Miss Mattie Smith came in she discovered a mistake about her time by 
the time she reached the clock. Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley corrected it in 
the office and then she left. Mr. Frank got back from Montag's about 1 1 
o'clock. He had with him the folder in which he carries his papers. No- 
body was with him when he came back. He went right up into his office. 
The stenographer was in the outer office when he got there. These cords 
here are found laying around everywhere in the building. They come on 
every bundle of slats that come into the building. The pencils are tied 
up with those slats at the top floor, brought down by elevator, carried in 
the packing room and those strings are then put on them. They get in 
the trash every day and into the basement. It is impossible to keep them 
out. I did not see Mary Phagan or Monteen Stover. The negro Conley 
was familiar with the whole building, every part of it. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

White and Denham were working on the fourth floor about thirty 
feet from the elevator. On May 12, 1913, 1 told you that the elevator was 
locked because I forgot to tell you I done some sawing. I took the key 
out, left the elevator unlocked and took the key back and put it in the 
office. Mr. Darley got to the factory about 9 o'clock Saturday. Miss 
Mattie Smith got there about 9:10. 

[31] 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

When I gave Mr. Dorsey that affidavit about locking the elevator I 
was telling more about my habit, the way I usually did it. I forgot to tell 
him about sawing those planks that Saturday morning and the fact that 
I sawed those planks makes me know that I left the elevator unlocked. 
The elevator makes a good deal of noise when it starts and when it stops. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I was on the second floor when all of these people came in the fac- 
tory. Mr. Frank worked on his books until he got ready to go to Mon- 
tags, I think it was about an hour. I checked freight with a one-legged 
drayman about 10:30; his wagon was right in front of the door. 
N. V. DARLEY, sworn for the State. 
My name is N. V. Darley. I am manager of the Georgia Cedar Com- 



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pany, a branch of the National Pencil Company. I have charge of the 
manufacturing and labor in the Forsyth Street plant. Mr. Sig Montag is 
my superior. Mr. Frank and I are of equal dignity in the factory. I was 
at the National Company's factory on Saturday, April 26th. I saw Mr. 
Frank and left about 9:40 in the morning. I was there Sunday morning 
at about 8:20. I saw Mr. Frank that morning. Observed nothing un- 
usual when I first saw him. When we started to the basement I noticed 
his hands were trembling. I observed that he seemed still nervous when 
he went to nail up the back door. When we started down to nail up the 
back door he made some remark about having on new clothes or some 
more clothes and he pulled his coat off to keep it from getting soiled. 
When we left the station house and started towards Bloomfields he told 
me why he was nervous. He said that he had not had breakfast and 
didn't get any coffee and that they had rushed him by Bloomfields, car- 
ried him in a dark room and turned the light on and he saw the girl in- 
stantly and that was why he was nervous. The elevator was unlocked. 
I don't know where the key was. Newt Lee seemed to be thoroughly 
composed. Mr. Frank stated to me in the basement that he thought that 
the murder was committed in the basement. Mr. Frank, stated that it 
looked easy for the staple to be pulled out and I agreed with him, because 
the staple looked black and it looked to me as if it had been pulled out 
before. On Monday Mr. Frank explained again why he was nervous Sun- 
day morning. I heard him speak of the murder numerous times. When 
we started down the elevator Mr. Frank was nervous, shaking all over. I 
can't say positively as to whether his whole body was shaking or not, but 
he was shaking. Newt Lee seemed to be composed when I saw him at the 
factory. Mr. Fiank could have driven the nails in the back door, but I 
thought I could do it with more ease. Mr. Frank looked pale Sunday 
morning. I think he seemed upset, but he did some things around the 

[32] 

factory there that a man who was completely upset could not have done, 
J don't think. When riding down to the police station from the pencil 
factory Mr. Frank was on my knee, he was trembling. I saw the financial 
sheet on Mr. Frank's desk. Mr. Frank picked it up in his hand. Gantt 
was at the factory three or four times after he was discharged. My recol- 
lection is that Frank said something about the financial sheet on Sunday. 
It was on May 3rd that Mr. Haas, the insurance man, asked that the fac- 
tory be cleaned upon the Malsby side and on the other side. When my 
attention was called to it I noticed something that looked like blood with 
something white over it at the ladies' dressing room on Monday morning. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Quinn called my attention to the blood spots, Barrett called 
Quinn's attention to it. Barrett showed me some hair on a lever of the 
lathe. It was 20 or 30 feet from Mary Phagan's machine on the north 
side of the room. There were no blood spots on it. I don't think any- 
body could answer how many strands of hair Barrett found. They were 
wound around the lever. I don't think there were over 6 or 8 at the out- 
side. It was pretty hard to tell the color. It is my understanding that 



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Barrett has been doing most of the discovering done in the building. He 
has lost quite some time since the murder, and buys quite some extras 
and reads them. The white stuff practically hid the spots. It looked 
like there had been an attempt to hide them, but you could see the spots. 
It looked like the man who tried to hide them, if anybody did, made a 
smearing motion and left the spots showing. I saw no blood spots on 
Mary Phagan's machine. There are hundreds of pay envelopes distrib- 
uted every week in the factory. The rule is that if a person goes outside 
of the factory and finds an envelope short we do not correct it. As the 
pay envelopes are distributed they take them and tear them off, just like 
this one. The employees take the money out and scatter the envelopes 
all over the factory. On the second floor where the metal room is is the 
main place where you find the pay envelopes. I was present on Sunday 
morning when the time slip was taken out. I was looking over Mr. 
Frank's shoulder. Mr. Frank run it down the number side. This time 
slip (Defendant's Exhibit "I") looks like the one. Mr. Frank looked 
down the number side and said it was all right and I verified it. I didn't 
notice between 9:32 and 10:29 if there was any punch, or between 1 1 :04 
and 12, or between 2:03 and 3:01. I identify this (Exhibit "I" defend- 
ant) by the numbers 6:01 and 6:32. I look over the financial sheets every 
Saturday afternoon. The factory week runs from Friday morning till 
Thursday night. The financial sheet is usually completed about 5:30 
Saturday afternoon. The financial sheet shows the week's operation of 
the factory; the production of the factory, the different kinds of pencils 
that were produced. There are perhaps 75 or 80 different kinds, besides 
the special imprint pencils. Mr. Frank had to get all the data from the 
-jarious departments of the factory, particularly the packing room. The 

[33] 

cost of production was estimated most of the time as to the merchandise. 
The other things were real figures. Merchandise is bought by the month 
and he had to figure it up at the end of the month to get the average. To 
arrive at the profit that was made during the week he took the actual 
value of the pencil and the amount of expenses that was paid out for ma- 
terial, labor, etc. He had to get all the data, all the reports and make all 
those calculations. It usually took him from about half past two or three 
o'clock on Saturday until five-thirty, and some times later. This finan- 
cial sheet (Defendant's Exhibit "2") is in Frank's handwriting and is 
the one I saw on his desk Sunday morning. I left the factory at 9:40 
and he hadn't started the financial sheet then. He usually started 
the financial sheet from 2:30 to 3 o'clock. I am familiar with Frank's 
handwriting. All of this financial sheet is in his handwriting. To 
get the figures 27651/2, net 27191/2, under material cost, he had to 
look at how many labels had been used, how many boxes, whether 
they were carton or plain ones, partition, rubbers, amount of lead used 
and amount of slate used. He got the reports that gave him that data 
from the different departments of the factory. To arrive at that result is 
quite a calculation. It is my opinion that it took a skillful, clear-headed 
man to calculate that. Yes, I am familiar with the elements that enter 



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into that calculation. To arrive at the net results of the figures just 
named, you have to get the amount of rubbers, tips, lead, wrappers, la- 
bels, boxes, whether carton or plain boxes, partition, whether it is cheap 
or good lead. The 2765 1/2 means 2765 1/2 gross. Further on down you 
find the different items that make up that figure under the head of wrap- 
pers, leads, tips, etc. The next figure is under rubber, 720 gross at 61/2c. 
Those figures come from the plugging department or he can get them 
from the goods as they are delivered to the packing room, by knowing 
the styles and numbers, you can tell whether it is a tipped or untipped 
pencil. You get that from the shipping room and the other from the 
metal room. He arrives at the figures on the reports turned in. It re- 
quires a good deal of calculation, mostly multiplying. The next figure is 
under tips, 1374 gross at ten cents. He gets that from the packing room. 
The ten cents means what the tips cost to produce. That's a stipulated 
price. The next heading is lead, 747 gross at 15c. and 1955 gross at ten 
cents. He has to go through these reports the same way except he doesn't 
have to work the cost of that, it's taken care of in the account. He has to 
arrive at the number of gross, but the cost is fixed. The next item is sup- 
plied at 5c. per gross, boxes 3771 at 2c, assortment boxes 279 at 10c, 
wrappers 2535 at lc He gets those reports from the boxes of pencils in 
the packing room. He gets the reports as to the rubbers and the labels 
from the packing room. The cost per gross is fixed, but he has to figure 
out the quantity. The next item is assortment boxes, wrappers, skele- 
tons. The next item, cartons. The next item is pay roll, Bell Street. The 
next, slats from the slat mills. As the slats are delivered from the slat 
mill, a report comes with it, and those reports are taken at the end of the 
week and added up. There are about five of those shipments during the 

[34] 

week. He has to take the data that accompanys each shipment and adds 
all that up at the end of the week. The next item is "pencils packed," 
(top of sheet). There are 24 itemized here, and the word "jobs" implies 
I don't know how many different kind of jobs. There are 24 different 
kind of pencils. He puts them there as having been produced that week. 
He got the reports as to the quantity of each kind of pencil and had to 
tabulate all those reports and arrive at the total of each kind. No, I 
don't think he had to figure out the cost of production of each kind, but 
he figures the quantity of each kind of pencil and shows its value on the 
sheet. Starnes and Black and Anderson and Dobbs were there on Sun- 
day morning. We went all over the factory. I don't remember about 
hearing of any blood being found on Sunday at all. There was a great 
deal of excitement there that morning. We see spots all over the factory 
floor. We have varnish spots, and people get their fingers cut, we have 
every color spots you can think of. I have been working in factories for 
24 years. It is a frequent occurrence in establishments where a large 
number of ladies work that you will see blood spots around dressing 
rooms. I have seen them a good many times. I have seen it at this fac- 
tory. Mr. Frank had on a brown suit on Saturday and Monday. On 
Sunday he had a different suit on. I never noticed any scratches, marks 



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or bruises on Mr. Frank on Sunday. There was a little girl in Mr. 
Frank's office on Saturday morning, by the name of Miss Mattie Smith, 
and her sister-in-law's time was wrong and Mr. Frank told her to wait a 
few minutes and he would straighten it out for her. She had been paid 
$3.10 too much, and she gave me back the money when she found it was 
wrong and I gave it to Mr. Frank and he said he was glad because it bal- 
anced his cash. She thenstarted out of the factory and got to the stair- 
way and she came back again and said that her time was wrong the other 
way, and I said "Little girl will it do all right to straighten it -Monday," 
and she said "Yes." I then asked her how was her father, and she said, 
"My father is dying, I think." Then she spoke to me about getting some 
assistance from the office for burial expenses, and she commenced to cry 
and I walked down the steps with her to the front door. That was about 
9:20. Mr. Frank stayed at the factory until 9:40, when we left together. 
We went on up to the corner of Hunter and Forsyth, took a drink of soda- 
water at Cruickshank's at the corner of Forsyth and Hunter. He left me 
then and started towards Montag's. That's the last I saw of him until 
Sunday morning. The elevator box was unlocked Sunday morning, and 
anybody could have pulled it open and started the elevator. The eleva- 
tor makes some noise. It is driven by a motor. It makes more noise 
when it stops at the bottom than when it starts. There is nothing to stop 
it except when it hits the bottom. I have seen these cords that we tie up 
slats and pencils with in every part of the factory. I have raised sand 
about finding them in the basement; they go down in the garbage. There 
are several truck loads of waste and debris every day. The general clean- 
ing up of the premises was had on Tuesday after the murder. The fac- 
tory is five stories high, between 150 and 200 feet in length and 75 or 80 

[35] 

feet wide. It is an extremely dirty place. In some places the floor is 
gummed an inch thick, and in some parts of the metal room it is one- 
eighth of an inch thick, it might not average that all over. It is always 
dark on the first floor, through the hall toward the elevator. On a cloudy 
day it is very dark. We keep a light burning there most of the time. I 
couldn't say whether we had cleaned up all the trash and rubbish around 
the factory, because there are corners and crevices which we don't usu- 
ally get to. Saturday, April 26th, was a dark, bad, misty day, until about 
9:30. It was cloudy most of the day. It was dark there around the ele- 
vator on the first floor and we had big heavy boxes piled up there. One 
of them must have been almost as large as a piano box. If a man got be- 
tween those boxes, we would have had to hunt to find him. It is very dark 
on the second floor between the clock and the metal room. It is dark be- 
hind the ladies dressing room and on the side next to the ladies' toilet. 
As you go to the stairs from the metal room, it is very dark. A person 
sitting at Mr. Frank's desk in his office could not see anyone coming up 
those stairs. It would be impossible to see anyone coming up those steps 
from anywhere in Mr. Frank's inner office, you would have to go outside 
of it. There is no lock on the metal room doors. In the metal room there 
are a great many vats and a great many boxes and things containing 



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stock and goods just south of the ladies' dressing room. It is piled up 
very bad back there. Averaged anywhere from 2 to 6 or 8 feet in height. 
It isn't used at all except for storage. The metal room contains three or 
four large vats that have got lids on them. They are shallow, but they 
are large inside. They are about a foot and a half deep. Nobody is sup- 
posed to be in any part of the building on Sunday, that is the only time 
we don't have a watchman. The factory is supposed to be locked en- 
tirely. The elevator steel cables have some slack in them. It isn't like a 
stiff iron in them. It would shake when you catch hold of it. There are 
two cables, you pull the right one to come down and the left one to go up. 
You can catch it and shake it in your hand. Yes, Mr. Frank is a small, 
thin man, about 125 or 130 pounds. Yes, Mr. Dorsey served a subpoena 
on me to come down to his office. I didn't know that he did not have any 
right to subpoena me. Yes, I thought I was being subpoenaed to come 
into court. They served two subpoenaes on me and sent for me one time. 
The first time I went there, Chief Lanford, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Stephens and 
the stenographer was there. They all asked me questions. One would 
ask me a question and before I got that answered, another would ask me 
a question. The next time I went there, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes, Mr. 
Campbell and the stenographer were there. Mr. Dorsey did all the ques- 
tioning this time. When Mr. Frank was engaged on his work in the fac- 
tory he was very intent on his work, very earnest and industrious. I 
don't think a day passed at the factory that Mr. Frank did not get ner- 
vous. When anything went wrong he would wring his hands and I have 
seen him push his hands through his hair. When things went wrong it 
would upset him. If anything out of the ordinary happened I have seen 
him a thousand times, I suppose, rub his hands. At a factory like this 

[36] 

things don't usually go right all day, there is something wrong all the 
time. When anything went wrong it rattled him and he would fre- 
quently call on me to straighten it out. He would show the most nervous- 
ness when he would go over to Montag's with the mail, and he would 
raise sand about something and he would come back very nervous. If 
Mr. Frank saw anything going wrong inside the factory, he would refer 
the matter to me. I never saw Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I don't 
know whether he knew her or not. I didn't know we had a girl by that 
name in the factory until I found it out afterwards. The two men work- 
ing up in the fourth floor all day Saturday could have come to the second 
floor into the metal room and down into the basement if they wanted to, 
they had the whole run of the factory. Yes, I have seen all kinds of 
papers down in the basement. The paper that note is written on is a 
blank order pad. It is either the carbon or white sheet, one is white and 
one is yellow. That kind of paper is liable to be found all over the build- 
ing for this reason, they write an order, and some times fail to get the 
carbon under it, and at other times they have to change the order and 
tear it out and throw it in the waste basket in the office and from there it 
gets into the trash. That kind of little pad is used all over the factory. 
The foreladies make their memorandum on that kind of tablet. You will 



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find them all around. It is one of the biggest wastes around the place. 
They are all over the building, and any man that worked around the fac- 
tory or ran the elevator or swept up the different floors would be more 
likely to come across them than anyone else, because they are thrown on 
the floor. There was an order to keep the clock door locked, but on this 
occasion the key was lost and the clock door was open. When I got there 
Sunday morning the clock door was unlocked. Mr. Frank could not have 
unlocked it because the key was lost. With the clock door unlocked, any- 
one who understands the clock, could have punched for all night in five 
or ten minutes. I made the same mistake Mr. Frank made in thinking 
that all the punches had been made all right. I looked over the factory 
at noon to-day and compared it with some points on this picture (Exhibit 
"A" for State). This big space in the cellar appears to be short. Those 
steps in the cellar are much longer in reality. The platform itself is 
about 15 feet long, and the incline is 17 feet, making 32 feet the length of 
it. The distance between the walls of Mr. Frank's office and the elevator 
shaft is 5 feet to 5 inches. The elevator shaft is ten feet, but on the pic- 
ture the space between the elevator shaft and Mr. Frank's office looks al- 
most as wide as the elevator shaft itself. One is ten feet and the other is 
5Kv/. As to what occasions I recall seeing Mr. Frank nervous, I recall 
onee that he came in one afternoon on a street car when it ran over a little 
child. He came in about 2:30 and he couldn't work any more on his books 
until a quarter after four. He trembled just as much on that occasion as 
he did on the Sunday after Mary Phagan was killed. Another time I re- 
member when I went over to the main factory and he and Mr. Montag 
had a fuss on the fourth floor. Mr. Montag hollered at him considerably 
and he was very nervous the rest of the evening, he shook and trembled. 

[37] 

He says "Mr. Darley I just can't work," and some of the boys told me he 
took some spirits of ammonia for his nerves. Everybody was excited in 
the factory that morning after Mary Phagan was killed. Starnes and 
Black and Rogers were there and it seems like they were all excited. 
Looked like everybody was worried. As to another mistake in the pic- 
ture (State's Exhibit A), the bottom of the ladder in the basement is 
much closer to the elevator than what is shown on the picture. It is 
about 6 feet. On the picture it looks to be about 10 feet and the toilet in 
the basement is closer to the wall than the picture shows, it is right up 
against the wall. The picture doesn't show the Clarke Woodenware par- 
tition back of the elevator. The door to the Clarke Woodenware Com- 
pany also is closer to the elevator than the picture shows. On the stairs 
from the first to the second floor there are double doors instead of single 
doors as shown on the picture. The picture shows up Frank's inner of- 
fice a good deal larger than the other office. As a matter of fact the outer 
office is larger. The outer office is 12 feet 4 inches wide. The inner office 
ten feet 3. The picture shows a great big wide place for a door between 
the inside office and the outside office, making it look like a double door. 
That is a representation to show a full view from Frank's desk into the 
hall, as a matter of fact it is a single door, standard size. It looks like it 



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was drawn to open up a space to give as much view as possible out into 
the hall. The safe is shown to be about half its real size on this picture. 
On the picture it is shown to be about one-third the width of the door, as 
a matter of fact it is about the same size. When the safe door is open, it 
shuts off three-fourths of the view from Frank's office out into the hall, 
unless you stand up high enough to look over it. The picture also shows 
the south wall of the outer office on a line with the clock. The picture 
doesn't show up the wardrobe in the inner office, nor the two cabinets 
that are in there. I don't think it is a very accurate picture. It opens up 
Frank's inner office a whole lot better than it really opens up. Sitting at 
Frank's desk and looking out through the door towards the clock, in re- 
ality you have a looking space of only 25 inches. You can just see about 
four numbers on clock number 2. You could not see anywhere near the 
stair case, or in the neighborhood of it. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I felt nervous from the time they told me the girl was dead, until I 
left the building. I was not trembling, I was simply excited and worried. 
Well, Starnes was nervous. He looked as if he were worried. He seemed 
nervous both in talk and manner. I can say the same thing of the rest of 
the officers who were there. Mr. Frank was more nervous than the others. 
The men were all about as nervous on Monday and Tuesday. Every- 
body seemed to be in a turmoil and shaking. Mr. Holloway and Mr. 
Schiff were shaking. I noticed Mr. Schiffs hands shaking Monday 
morning. Mr. Holloway was about in the same shape. Mr. Frank was 
very nervous Tuesday after the extra came out saying that they were 

[38] 

going to arrest him. That was about 15 or 20 minutes before they ar- 
rested him. As to who gets up the data for Mr. Frank for the financial 
sheets, Mr. Loeb some times, and Mr. Gantt used to get up some, and Mr. 
Schiff gets it up some times. Mr. Frank got it up himself, some times. 
No, I do not know that Mr. Schiff furnished it to him all the time. I never 
noticed whether Lee was nervous or not at any time, but of course, he 
looked bothered and worried. Mr. Frank told me that the slip he took out 
of the clock Sunday morning had been punched regularly. I made the 
same mistake standing right there by his side. I didn't see Mr. Frank 
date the slip. It ought to have been dated the 26th. The slip I saw didn't 
have any time on it except the watchman's time. I don't know whether 
I would know it or not, to identify. The slips are not made in duplicate. 
As to whether there is any mark on the slip to enable any one to identify 
it, as the one taken out that night, my memory is that it was started at 
6:01 or 6:32. Of course nobody could ten who punched the clock, one 
man's punch is just like another. That diagram or picture (State's Ex- 
hibit A) is a fair representation of the building as a whole, it is not a fair 
representation of the interior. I never knew there were any stairs in the 
basement until this matter came up. They are never used to my knowl- 
edge. There is a way of closing the door in rear of second floor from up- 
stairs. The regular place of keeping these order blank books is in the 
outer office. There is no regular place in the basement to keep paper, but 



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it is thrown out in the waste basket and gets down in the trash. There is 
no use for that paper anywhere but in the office, but that doesn't prevent 
it from being scattered around. I have scratch pads of that shape scat- 
tered around even in the basement. That scratch pad is used all over the 
factory, everywhere there is a foreman or a forelady. No, not in the area 
around the elevator there. The trash is carried downstairs right in front 
of the boiler. Sometimes if they are in a hurry they leave it around the 
elevator for a little while, and when I go down I make the negro move it 
to the boiler. It is usually burned. Some of it may stay there for a week, 
some of it burned right away. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DEFENDANT. 
As to people being nervous, Montag and Frank merely had some 
words when Frank became so nervous. Schiff was trembling Monday, 
Holloway also, I noticed Miss Flowers began to cry and scream and I had 
to go in there and get hold of her myself. That was Tuesday morning. 
The whole factory was wrought up. I couldn't hardly keep anybody at 
work. I had to let them go on Monday, and I wished I had let them go 
for the rest of the week, for I couldn't get any work out of them. I 
wouldn't say that I couldn't get any work out of Christopher Columbus 
Barrett, since, but he has lost a good deal of time. I would have to look 
to the pay roll to tell. 
W. F. ANDERSON, sworn for the State. 
I was at police headquarters Saturday, April 26th. I got a call from 

[39] 

the night, watchman at the pencil factory. He said a woman was dead at 
'the factory. I asked him if it was a white woman or a negro woman. He 
said it was a white woman. We went there in an automobile, shook the 
door and Newt Lee came down from the second floor and carried us back 
to the ladder that goes down through the scuttle hole. About 3:30 I 
called up Mr. Frank on the telephone and got no answer. I heard the 
telephone rattling and buzzing. I continued to call for about five min- 
utes. I told Central that there had been a girl killed in the factory and 
.1 wanted to get Mr. Frank. I called Mr. Haas and Mr. Montag, too. I 
,got a response from both, I think a lady answered the telephone. I got 
.them in a few minutes. I tried to get Mr. Frank again about four o'clock. 
Central said she rang and she couldn't get him. There was some blood 
on the girl's underclothes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

There was a wound on the left-hand side of the girl's head. The 
-blood was dried up. It was wet right next to the skin. Lee said over the 
telephone that it was a white girl. It took us about three minutes to get 
to the factory from the police station, just as quick as the automobile 
could get us there. We got there inside of five minutes after I received 
his telephone message. Lee had a smoky lantern. You couldn't see very 
-far with it. It was smoked up right smart. Lee said he had been to the 
closet and had his lantern sitting down there and he looked over and saw 
the lady. He said, he saw her while he was standing up. I said he 
couldn't see her. You could see the bulk of anything that far, but you 



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couldn't tell that far whether it was a person. He told me when I first 
got him that he had his lantern sitting down right in front of him. The 
body was lying sort of catecornered and on the left side of the body I saw 
a number of tracks which lead from the body to the shaving room. There 
is an opening from the place where the body lay into the shaving room. 
I found a pencil down there. There are plenty of pencils and trash in the 
basement. The trash was all up next to the boiler. 
H. L. PARRY, sworn in behalf of the State. 

I reported the statement of Leo M. Frank before the coroner's jury. 
I have been a stenographer for thirty years and considered an expert. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Newt Lee was asked the following questions and gave the following 
answers at the coroner's jury: "Q. Had you ever seen him change that 
before? A. Well, he put the tape in once before. Q. When was that? 
A. I don't know, sir, when it was, it was one night. Q. How long did it 
take him the first time you ever saw him put the tape on ? A. I never 
paid any attention to him. Q. Well, about how long did it take him, five 
minutes? A. No, sir, it didn't take him that long. Q. Did it take him 
a minute? A. I couldn't tell exactly how long. Q. How long did it take 

[40] 

the other night, on Saturday night? A. Well, it took him a pretty good 
little bit, because he spoke about it. He said it's pretty hard, you know, 
to get on." I don't know whether he swore anything, else on that partic- 
ular subject without examining the record. 
G. C. FEBRUARY, sworn for the State. 

I was present at Chief Lanford's office when Leo M. Frank and L. Z. 
Rosser were there. I took down Mr. Frank's statement stenographically. 
I don't remember Frank's answers in detail, Mr. Rosser was looking out 
of the window most of the time. He didn't say anything while I was in 
there. This (Exhibit B, State), report is correct report of what Mr. 
Frank said. It was made on Monday, April 28th. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I believe Mr. Rosser and Mr. Frank were in the room when I came in. 
It was sometime in the forenoon. I have never been a court stenographer 
except in Recorder's court. I am Chief Lanford's private secretary. Mr. 
Black was in there during the latter part of Mr. Frank's statement. Chief 
Lanford asked Mr. Frank if he changed clothes. He showed part of his 
shirt and opened his trousers. He showed his clothing to Chief Lanford 
at the end of the statement. I wrote the statement out in longhand the 
same day. I don't remember exactly when. 
ALBERT McKNIGHT, sworn for the State. 

My wife is Minola McKnight. She cooks for Mrs. Selig. Between 1 
and 2 o'clock on Memorial Day I was at the home of Mr. Frank to see my 
wife. He came in close to 1 :30. He did not eat any dinner. He came in, 
went to the sideboard of the dining room, stayed there a few minutes and 
then he goes out and catches a car. Stayed there about 5 or 10 minutes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 
Mrs. Selig and Mrs. Frank were present when Mr. Frank came in. I 



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was in the cook room. There is a swinging door between the dining room 
and the cook room. The dining room door was open. The door swings 
back and forth, but they don't keep it shut. You can see from the kitchen 
into the dining room. You can look in the mirror in the corner and see 
all over the dining room. I looked in the mirror in the corner and saw 
him. You can look in that mirror and see in the sitting room and in the 
dining room. I have no idea how big the kitchen or dining room is. I 
was never in the dining room in my life. I was sitting at the back door 
in the kitchen, at the right side of the back door, up against the wall. 
Minola went into the dining room, and stayed a minute or two, no more 
than two minutes. She came back into the kitchen. I don't know 
whether the other folks ate dinner or not, I did not see 'Mr. Selig. I came 
to the house from my house in the rear of 3 1 8 Pulliam Street. After com- 

[41] 

ing to the sideboard Mr. Frank went into the sitting room where Mr. 
Selig was. I didn't see Mr. Selig, but heard him talking. I told about 
Mr. Frank not eating after I came back from Birmingham, I told it to 
Mr. Craven of the Beck & Gregg Company. It was before Minola went 
down to the jail. Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Morse, Mr. Martin and 
Mr. Dorsey all talked to me. I didn't go down to see Minola at the sta- 
tion house. I didn't see Mrs. Frank or Mrs. Selig that Saturday through 
the mirror. I didn't keep my eye on the mirror all the time. I couldn't 
tell who was in the dining room without looking in the mirror. Mr. 
Frank got there not later than 1 :30. Mr. Frank came on back to Pulliam 
Street and caught the Georgia Avenue car at the corner of Georgia Ave- 
nut and Pulliam Street. I am certain that he caught the Georgia Avenue 
car at Pulliam Street and Georgia Avenue. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The Selig residence is on East Georgia Avenue between Pulliam and 
Washington Streets. I don't know exactly the nearest place for Mr. 
Frank to have gotton on the car, Washington Street or Pulliam Street. 
I suppose Pulliam Street is nearer to town than Washington. I cer- 
tainly saw Mr. Frank that day, from the kitchen where I was sitting. 
MISS HELEN FERGUSON, sworn for the State. 
My name is Helen Ferguson, I worked at the National Pencil Com- 
pany on Friday the 25th. I saw Mr. Frank Friday, April 25th, about 7 
o'clock in the evening and asked for Mary Phagan's money. Mr. Frank 
said "I can't let you have it," and before he said anything else I turned 
around and walked out. I had gotten Mary's money before, but I didn't 
get it from Mr. Frank. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

When I got Mary's money before I went up there and called my num- 
ber and called her number, and I got mine and hers. I didn't ask the man 
that was paying off this time to let me have it. I don't remember whether 
Mr. Schiff was in the office or not when I asked Mr. Frank for Mary's 
money. Some of the office force were there, but I can't recall their name. 
I worked in the metal department about two years. I never saw little 
Mary Phagan in Mr. Frank's office. I don't think Mr. Frank knew my 



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name, he knew my face. It has been some time since I asked for Mary's 

pay by number. I do not believe that I ever saw Mr. Frank speak to 

Mary Phagan. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I don't know who paid off on Friday, April 25th. 

R. L. WAGGONER, sworn for the State. 

I am a city detective. On Tuesday, April 29th, from ten thirty until 

[42] 

a little after 1 1 in the morning I was in front of the pencil factory on the 
other side of the street. I would continually see Mr. Frank walk to the 
window and look down and twist his hands when he would come to the 
window looking down on the sidewalk. He did this about 12 times when 
I was there in about 30 minutes. I was in the automobile with Mr. Frank 
and Mr. Black and his leg was shaking. He was under arrest at the time. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know what he was doing in the office. I saw some other peo- 
ple up there that I didn't recognize. I was sent to the pencil factory to 
notice Mr. Frank and the pencil factory. I thought Mr. Frank would be 
arrested. 

J. L. BEAVERS, sworn for the State. 

I am Chief of Police of the City of Atlanta. I was at the pencil fac- 
tory on Tuesday, April 29th, and saw what I took to be a splotch of blood 
on the floor right near this little dressing room on office floor, seemed to 
be as big as a quarter in the center and scattered out in the direction of 
this room near the door. There was one spot and some others scattered 
around that. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

It may have been Monday that I was at the pencil factory. I don't 
know whether it was blood or not. It looked like blood. 
R. M. LASSITER, sworn for the State. 

I am a city policeman. On Sunday morning, April 27th, I found a 
parasol in the bottom of the elevator shaft. It was lying about the cen- 
ter of the shaft. I also found a ball of rope twine, small wrapping twine, 
and also something that looked like a person's stool. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I noticed evidence of dragging from the elevator in the basement. 
As I passed the rear door at 12 o'clock, the door was closed. The um- 
brella was not crushed. I found it between 6 and 7 o'clock in the morn- 
ing. The elevator comes down there and hits the ground plump at the 
bottom of the basement. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I don't know whether the elevator shaft has a cement bottom or not. 
There is a whole lot of trash at the bottom. 
L. 0. GRICE, sworn for the State. 
My name is L. 0. Grice. I was at the National Pencil Company's 

[43] 

place on Sunday morning, April 27th. A small sized man, defendant 



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here, attracted my attention, on account of his nervousness. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was called as a witness in this case one week after it started. I 
told some of my friends about Mr. Frank's nervousness and'they advised 
me to go to Dorsey. I never knew or saw Mr. Frank before. When we 
were told of how the little child was murdered, it excited me some. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I don't recall trembling any. I am pretty sure I didn't because my 
friend that I went to Opelika with that morning suggested that I was 
trembling when I went through there, and I told him I was not. He was 
not there when I went through the factory and when I told him about it 
he said I bet you were scared. He walked around this way a little bit. 
He was kind of shaking like that (illustrating). His fingers were tremb- 
ling. 

MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State (re-called). 
The door in the rear part of the factory on the second floor on Fri- 
day evening was barred. There is no way in the rear of the building to 
come down to the second floor when the door is barred except the fire es- 
cape, and you have to be on office floor to undo the door. The area around 
the elevator shaft on the first floor near the hole and radiator was cleaned 
up after the murder. It was the early part of the week after the murder. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I didn't clean it myself. I saw it cleaned. I passed by as it was be- 
ing cleaned up. 

W. H. GREESLING, sworn for the State. 

I am a funeral director and embalmer. I moved the body of Mary 
Phagan at 10 minutes to four o'clock, April 27th, in the morning. The 
cord (Exhibit C, State) was around the neck. The knot was on the right 
side of the neck and was lying kind of looped around the head. It wasn't 
very tight at the time I moved it. There was an impress of an eighth of 
an inch on the neck. The rag (Exhibit D, State) was around her hair 
and over her face. The tongue an inch and a quarter out of her mouth 
sticking out. The body was rigid; looking like it had been dead for some 
time. My opinion is that she had been dead ten or fifteen hours, or prob- 
ably longer. The blood was very much congested. The blood had set- 
tled in her face because she was lying on her face. Blood begins to settle 

[44] 

at death or a very few minutes after death. After Dr. Hurt examined 
her nails, I did. I found some dirt and dust under the nails. I discov- 
ered some urine or her underclothes and there were some dry blood 
splotches there. The right leg of the drawers was split with a knife or 
torn right up the seam. Her right eye was very dark; looked like it was 
hit before death because it was very much swollen; if it had been hit af- 
ter death there wouldn't have been any swelling. I found a wound 21/4 
inches on the back of the head. It was made before death because it bled 
a great deal. The hair was matted with blood and very dry. If it had 
been made after death, there would have been no blood there. There is 
no circulation after death. The skull wasn't crushed; the scalp was 



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broken. The indication was that it was made before death. There was a 
scar over each eye about the size of a dime. I didn't notice any scratches 
on her nose. I can't state whether the defendant ever looked at the body 
or not. There was some discharge on her underclothes which was very 
dry and if she had been dead a short time, it would have been wet yet. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I judge the length of time the corpse had been dead by the rigor mor- 
tis. This is very indefinite at times. It begins before death. If she died 
of strangulation, I would expect rigor mortis to begin within an hour. I 
have never had any experience about as a case of strangulation so as to 
determine when rigor mortis began and when it broke. There is no cer- 
tainty about how long a corpse is dead. All the blood was dry when I ex- 
amined the body. Mr. Rogers and Mr. Black came with Mr. Frank and 
asked me to take him back to where the girl was. I took them back there, 
pulled a light, pulled the sheet back, and moved the revolving table and 
walked out between them. Mr. Frank was near the right-hand going in. 
Mr. Black was at the left. I took a half gallon of blood from the little 
girl's body, enough to clear up the face and body. I injected one gallon 
of the formula into the corpse. Formaldehyde is a constituent part of 
* the embalming fluid used. I prepared the little girl properly for burial. 
There was no mutilation at all on the body. I judged she died of stran- 
gulation because the rope was tight enough to choke her to death and her 
tongue being an inch and a quarter out of the mouth, showed she died 
from strangulation. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 
I don't think the little girl lost much blood. 
DR. CLAUDE SMITH, sworn for the State. 
I am physician and City Bacteriologist and Chemist. These chips 
(Exhibit E, State) appear to be the specimen which the detectives, 
brought to my office and which I examined. They had considerable dirt 

[45] 

on them and some coloring stain. On one of them I found some blood 
corpuscles. I do not know whether it was human blood. This shirt (Ex- 
hibit E for State) appears to be the same shirt brought to my office by 
detectives which I examined. I examined spots and it showed blood 
stain. I got no odor from the arm pits that it had been worn. The blood 
I noticed was smeared a little on the inside in places. It didn't extend 
out on the outside. The blood on shirt was somewhat on the inside of the 
garment high up about the waist line which to my mind could not have 
been produced by turning up the tail. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I found grit and stain on all of the chips. I couldn't tell the one that 
I found blood on. I did the work in the ordinary way. The whole sur- 
face of the chips was coated with dirt. I couldn't tell whether the blood 
stain was fresh or old. I have kept blood corpuscles in the laboratory for 
several years. I found probably three or four or five blood corpuscles in 
a field. I don't know how much blood was there. A drop or half drop 
would have caused it, or even less than that. Rigor mortis begins very 



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soon after death. Sometimes starts quicker, but usually starts very 
soon. I could not say when rigor mortis would end. 
DR. J. W. HURT, sworn for the state. 

I am County Physician. I saw the body of Mary Phagan on Sunday 
morning, the 27th of April. She had a scalp wound on the left side of her 
head about 21/2 inches long, about 4 inches from the top to the left ear 
through the scalp to the skull. She had a black contused eye. A number 
of small minor scratches on the face. The tongue was protruding about 
a half an inch through the teeth. There was a wound on the left knee, 
about 2 inches below the knee. There were some superficial scratches on 
the left and right elbow. There was a cord around the neck and this cord 
was imbedded into the skin and in my opinion she died from strangula- 
tion. This cord (Exhibit "C" for State) looks like the cord that was 
around her neck. There was swelling on the neck. In my opinion the 
cord was put on before death. The wound on the back of the head seemed 
to have been made with a blunt-edged instrument and the blow from 
down upward. The scalp wound was made before death. It was calcu- 
lated to produce unconsciousness. The black eye appeared to have been 
made by some soft instrument in that the skin was not broken. I think 
the scratches on the face were made after death. I examined the hymen. 
It was not intact. There was blood on the drawers. I discovered no vio- 
lence to the parts. There was blood on the parts. I didn't know whether 
it was fresh blood or menstrual blood. The vagina was a little larger 
than the normal size of a girl of that age. It is my opinion that this en- 
largement of the vagina could have been produced by penetration imme- 
diately preceding death. She had a normal virgin uterus. She was not 

[46] 

pregnant. I made no examination of the blood vessels of the uterus or 
womb. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The body looked as if it had been dragged through dirt and cinders. 
It is my impression that she was dragged face forward. If she had fallen 
on the corner of the floor that was sharp edged, or the corner of an eleva- 
tor shaft with an edge, it might have produced the wound. I do not know 
of the kind of instrument that produced the wound. There was no contu- 
sion on the inside of the skull, but the skull wasn't fractured. Neither 
the brain nor the meningis were affected. There was a little contusion on 
the inner lining of the skull. There was no bleeding on the brain tissues. 
I don't know whether it would produce unconsciousness or not. I was 
never asked before to examine the inside of anybody's skull to determine 
the fact whether death or unconsciousness resulted from the wound. It 
is my impression that this lick did produce unconsciousness, but I won't 
swear it, I don't know. The hemorrhage which we discovered in the skull 
caused no pressure on the brain. That was no sign that unconsciousness 
resulted. When a person is strangled to death the lungs ought to show 
congestion. I never examined this girl's lungs. When I saw the body on 
April 27th I gave it as my opinion that she had been dead from 16 to 20 
hours at 9 o'clock Sunday morning. Rigor mortis was complete. It is a 



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very variable thing. I couldn't tell whether the blood on her under- 
clothes was menstrual blood or not. The hymen was not intact, and I was 
not able to say when this hymen was ruptured. I saw no indication of an 
injury to the hymen. The appearance of the blood on the parts was char- 
acteristic of a menstrual flow. There was no laceration on the vagina, 
and no mutilation on this girl's body except those wounds on the face, 
head and legs. The size of the vagina is no indication of anything except 
the anatomy and the natural build of the person. It is no indication of 
rape. I found no outward signs of rape. I have formed no opinion 
whether this little girl was raped or had ever had intercourse with any- 
body. There was no external marks of violence. I told Col. Rosser at 
the Coroner's inquest that this little girl had her monthly period on, but 
I got that from somebody else. I did not conclude that from my exami- 
nation. The monthly period causes some inflammation and congestion 
in the blood vessels of the ovaries and uterus. The vagina itself might 
have some different appearance. I was present when Dr. Harris made 
the post mortem examination of this girl. Cabbage is digested better by 
some people than others. It depends on the individual very much. It is 
considered hard to digest. It depends largely on mastication. You can 
chew up so thoroughly that it would go down into the stomach almost a 
liquid, but it would not be digested until the stomach took up that chewed 
mass. It would take a much longer time to digest and assimilate unmas- 
ticated cabbage than if it had been thoroughly chewed. It takes about 
31/2 hours to digest cabbage properly masticated, and it would take lon- 

[47] 

ger if the cabbage had been taken into the stomach actually or practi- 
cally whole. Digestion continues partially in unconsciousness. It is a 
guess to say whether the girl was conscious or not. I would not under- 
take to give an opinion how long she remained unconscious. I would not 
undertake to give an opinion and don't know of any way of telling ten 
days after death how long a distended condition of the vagina existed 
before death. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I could not detect the hymen from a digital and occular examination. 
Ordinary normal menses would produce a dilation'of the blood vessels in 
the womb. The blood, flowing over the hymen I think would produce a 
little inflammation at the hymen, but if the hymen was broken down, I 
don't know that menstruation would have any affect upon the hymen. If 
the menstruation was about off, then I would say that any undue excite- 
ment might produce the flow again, or increase the flow that was already 
there. The contents of this bottle (Exhibit "G," State) didn't stay in 
the stomach very long. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I wouldn't undertake to say how long that cabbage (Exhibit "G," 
State) had been in the child's stomach. A blow on the back of the head 
might blacken one or both eyes. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 
I think excitement could produce flow from the uterus. I'don't think 



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it would cause any discoloration of the walls of the vagina, e~ept from 
the blood. 

DR. H. F. HARRIS, sworn for the State. 

I am a practicing physician. I made an examination of the body of 
Mary Phagan on May 5th. On removing the skull I found there was no 
actual break of the skull, but a little hemorrhage under the skull, corre- 
sponding to point where blow had been deliver-ed, which shows that the 
blow was hard enough to have made the person unconscious. This wound 
on the head was not sufficient to have caused death. I think beyond any 
question she came to her death from strangulation from this cord being 
wound around her neck. The bruise around the eye was caused by a soft 
instrument, because it didn't show the degree of contusion that would 
have been produced by a hard instruiment. The outside cuticle of the 
skin wasn't broken. The injury to the eye and scalp were caused before 
death. I examined the contents of the stomach, finding 160 cubic centi- 
meters of cabbage and biscuit, or wheaten bread. It had progressed very 
slightly towards digestion. It is impossible for one to say absolutely how 
long this cabbage had been in the stomach, but I feel confident that she 
was either killed or received the blow on the back of the head within a 
half hour after she finished her meal. I have some cabbage here from two 

[48] 

normal persons. Here was same meal taken of cabbage and wheaten 
bread by two men of normal stomach, and contents taken out within an 
hour. We found there was very little cabbage left. I made an examina- 
tion of the privates of Mary Phagan. I found no spermatozoa. On the 
walls of the vagina there was evidences of violence of some kind. The 
epitheleum was pulled loose, completely detached in places, blood vessels 
were dilated immediately beneath the surface and a great deal of hemor- 
rhage in the surrounding tissues. The dilation of the blood vessels indi- 
cated to me that the injury had been made in the vagina some little time 
before death. Perhaps ten to fifteen minutes. It had occurred before 
death by reason of the fact that these blood vessels were dilated. Inflam- 
mation had set in and it takes an appreciable length of time for the pro- 
cess of inflammatory change to begin. There was evidence of violence in 
the neighborhood of the hymen. Rigor mortis varies so much that it is 
not accurate to state how long after death it sets in. It may begin in a 
few minutes and may be delayed for hours. I could not state from the 
examination how long Mary Phagan was dying. It is my opinion that 
she lived from a half to three-quarters of an hour after she ate her meal. 
The evidence of violence in the vagina had evidently been done just be- 
fore death. The fact that the child was strangled to death was indicated 
by the lividity, the blueness of the parts, the congestion of the tongue 
and mouth and the blueness of the hands and fingernails. The lungs had 
the peculiar appearance which is always produced after embalming when 
formaldehyde is used. I am of the opinion that the wound on the back of 
the head could not have been produced by this stick (Exhibit 48 of De- 
fendant). I made a microscopic examination of the vagina and uterus. 
Natural menses would cause an enlargement of the uterus, but not of the 



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vagina. In my opinion the menses could not have caused any dilation of 
the blood vessels and discoloration of the walls. From my own experi- 
ments I find that the behavior of the stomach after taking a small meal 
of cabbage and bread is practically the same as taking some biscuit and 
water alone. I examined Mary Phagan's stomach. It was normal in size, 
normal in position, and normal in every particular. I made a microscopic 
examination of the contents in Mary Phagan's case. It showed plainly 
that it had not begun to dissolve, or only to a very slight degree, and in- 
dicated that the process of digestion had not gone on to any extent at the 
time that this girl was rendered unconscious. I found that the starch she 
had eaten had undergone practically no alteration. The contents taken 
from the little girl's stomach was examined chemically and the result 
showed that there were only slight traces of the first action of the diges- 
tive juices on the starch. It was plainly evident that none of the mate- 
rial had gone into the small intestines. As soon as food is put in the 
stomach the beginning of the secretion of the hydrochloric acid is found. 
It is from the quantity of this acid that the stomach secretes that doctors 
judge the state and degree of digestion. In this case the acid had not 
been secreted in such an excess that any of it had become what we call 
free. In this case the amount of acid in this girl's stomach was combined 

[49] 

and was 32 degrees. Ordinarily in a normal stomach at the end of an 
hour it runs from 50 to 70 or 80. I found none of the pancreatic juices in 
the stomach which are usually found, about an hour after digestion starts. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't remember when Mr. Dorsey first talked to me about making 
this autopsy. As long as the heart was beating you could have put a piece 
of rope around the neck of this little girl and produced the same results 
as I found. I took about five or six ounces altogether out of the stomach. 
It was all used up in making my experiments. I know of no experiments 
made as to the effect of gastric juices where the patient is dead. The 
juices of the body after death gradually evaporate. The chemical analy- 
sis of each cabbage varies, not only in the plant but from the way it is 
cooked. It is a very vague matter as to what influences may retard diges- 
tion. Every individual is almost a law unto himself. To a certain extent 
different vegetables affect different stomachs different ways, but the av- 
erage normal stomach digests anything that is eaten within reason. Some 
authorities claim that exercise will retard digestion. I don't know that 
mental activity would have very much effect in retarding the digestion. 
It is the generally accepted opinion that food begins to pass out of the 
stomach through the pyloris in about a half an hour. A great many things 
pass out of the stomach that are not digested. The juices of the stomach 
make no change in them. The stomach does not emulsify a solid. I never 
knew a normal man who could digest a solid. The science of diges- 
tion is rather a modern thing. I did not call in any chemist in making 
this examination. I said it was impossible for any one to say absolutely 
how long the cabbage had been in the stomach of Mary Phagan before 
she met her death, not within a minute or five minutes, but I say it was 



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somewhere between one-half an hour and three-quarters. I am certain of 
that. Of course, if digestion had been delayed this time element would 
change. The violence to the private parts might have been produced by 
the finger or by other means, but I found evidence of violence. It takes a 
rather considerable knock to tear epithelium off to the extent that bleed- 
ing would occur. I found the epithelium completely detached in places 
and in other places it was not detached. A digital examination means 
putting the finger in. The swelling and dilation of the blood vessels 
could be seen only with a microscope. It is impossible to say how much 
they were swollen. A scalp wound is very prone to bleed. 
C. B. DALTON, sworn for the State. 

I know Leo M. Frank, Daisy Hopkins, and Jim Conley. I have vis- 
ited the National Pencil Company three, four or five times. I have been 
in the office of Leo M. Frank two or three times. I have been down in the 
basement. I don't know whether Mr. Frank knew I was in the basement 
or not, but he knew I was there. I saw Conley there and the night watch- 
man, and he was not Conley. There would be some ladies in Mr. Frank's 

[50] 

office. Sometimes there would be two, and sometimes one. May be they 
didn't work in the mornings and they would be there in the evenings. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't recollect the first time I was in Mr. Frank's office. It was last 
fall. I have been down there one time this year but Mr. Frank wasn't 
there. It was Saturday evening. I went in there with Miss Daisy Hopkins. 
I saw some parties in the office but I don't know them. They were ladies. 
Sometimes there would be two and sometimes more. I don't know 
whether it was the stenographer or not. I don't recollect the next time I 
saw him in his office. I never saw any gentlemen but Mr. Frank in there. 
Every time I was in Mr. Frank's office was before Christmas. Miss Daisy 
Hopkins introduced me to him. I saw Conley there one time this year 
and several times on Saturday evenings. Mr. Frank wasn't there the last 
time. Conley was sitting there at the front door. When I went down the 
ladder Miss Daisy went with me. We went back by the trash pile in the 
basement. I saw an old cot and a stretcher. I have been in Atlanta for 
ten years. I have never been away over a week. I saw Mr. Frank about 
two o'clock in the afternoon. There was no curtains drawn in the office. 
It was very light in there. I went in the first office, near the stairway. 
The night watchman I spoke of was a negro. I saw him about the first of 
January. I saw a negro night watchman there between September and 
December. Hived in Walton County for twenty years. I came right 
here from Walton County. I was absent from Walton County once for 
two or three years and lived in Lawrenceville. I have walked home from 
the factory with Miss Laura Atkins and Miss Smith. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I gave Jim Conley a half dozen or more quarters. I saw Mr. Frank in 
his office in the day time. Mr. Frank had Coca-Cola, lemon and lime and 
beer in the office. I never saw the ladies in his office doing any writing. 
RECALLED FOR CROSS EXAMINATION. 



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Andrew Dalton is my brother-in-law. John Dalton is a first cousin. 

I am the Dalton that went to the chaingang for stealing in Walton County 

in 1894. We all pleaded guilty. The others paid out. I don't know how 

long I served. I stole a shop hammer. That was in case No. L. There 

were three cases and the sentences were concurrent. One of the other 

Daltons stole a plow and I don't know what the other one stole. I was 

with them. In 1 899 at the February term of Walton Superior Court I 

was indicted for helping steal bale of cotton. In Gwinnett County I was 

prosecuted for stealing corn, but I came clear. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

It has been 1 8 or 20 years since I have been in trouble. I was drunk 

[51] 
52 

with the two Dalton boys when we got into that hammer and plow stock 
scrape. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know whether I was indicted in 1906 in Walton County for 
selling liquor. I know Dan Hillman and I know Bob Harris. I don't 
know whether I was indicted for selling liquor to them or not. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Miss Daisy Hopkins knows Mr. Frank. I have seen her talking to 
him and she told me about it. 
S. L. ROSSER, sworn for the State. 

I am a city policeman. On Monday, April 28th, I went out to see 
Mrs. White. On May 6th or 7th was the first time I knew Mrs, White 
claimed to have seen a negro at'the factory on April 26th. These are the 
same chips we had at factory. The club was not on floor by elevator the 
day I searched the place. I had a flash light and searched for everything. 
I would have seen it had it been there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I made no inquiry of her about this before. She volunteered the in- 
formation when I came out the second time. 
JAMES CONLEY, sworn for the State. 

I had a little conversation with Mr. Frank on Friday, the 25th of 
April. He wanted me to come to the pencil factory that Friday morning 
that he had some work on the third floor he wanted me to do. All right, 
I will talk louder. Friday evening about tree o'clock Mr. Frank come 
to the fourth floor where I was working and said he wanted me to come to 
the pencil factory on Saturday morning at 8:30; that he had some work 
for me to do on the second floor. I have been working for the pencil com- 
pany for a little over two years. Yes, I had gone back there that way for 
Mr. Frank before, when he asked me to come back. I got to the pencil 
factory about 8:30 on April 26th. Mr. Frank and me got to the door at 
the same time. Mr. Frank walked on the inside and I walked behind him 
and he says to me, "Good morning," and I says, "Good morning, Mr. 
Frank." He says, "You are a little early this morning," and I says," No, 
sir, I am not early." He says, "Well, you are a little early to do what I 
wanted you to do for me, I want you to watch for me like you have been 



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doing the rest of the Saturdays." I always stayed on the first floor like 
I stayed the 26th of April and watched for Mr. Frank, while he and a 
young lady would be upon the second floor chatting, I don't know what 

[52] 

they were doing. He only told me they wanted to chat. When young 
ladies would come there, I would sit down at the first floor and watch the 
door for him. I couldn't exactly tell how many times I have watched the 
door for him previous to April 26th, it has been several times that I 
watched for him. I don't know who would be there when I watched for 
him, but there would be another young man, another young lady during 
the time I was at the door. A lady for him and one for Mr. Frank. Mr. 
Frank was alone there once, that was Thanksgiving day. I watched for 
him. Yes, a woman came there Thanksgiving day, she was a tall, heavy 
built lady. I stayed down there and watched the door just as he told me 
the last time, April 26th. He told me when the lady came he would stomp 
and let me know that was the one and for me to lock the door. Well, af- 
ter the lady came and he stomped for me, I went and locked the door as 
he said. He told me when he got through with the lady he would whistle 
and for me then to go and unlock the door. That was last Thanksgiving 
day, 1912. On April 26th, me and Mr. Frank met at the door. He says, 
"What I want you to do is to watch for me to-day as you did other Satur- 
days," and I says, "All right." I said, "Mr. Frank, I want to go to the 
Capital City Laundry to see my mother," and he said, "By the time you 
go to the laundry and come back to Trinity Avenue, stop at the corner of 
Nelson and Forsyth Streets until I go to Montags." I don't know exactly 
what time I got to the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Streets, but I came 
there sometime between 10 and 10:30. I saw Mr. Frank as he passed by 
me, I was standing on the corner, he was coming up Forsyth Street to- 
ward Nelson Street. He was going to Montag's factory. While I was 
there on the corner he said, "Ha, ha, you are here, is yer." And I says, 
"Yes, sir, I am right here, Mr. Frank." He says, "Well, wait until I go 
to Mr. Sig's, I won't be very long, I'll be right back." I says, "All right, 
Mr. Frank, I'll be right here." I don't know how long he stayed at Mon- 
tag's. He didn't say anything when he came back from Montag's, but 
told me to come on. Mr. Frank came out Nelson Street and down For- 
syth Street toward the pencil factory and I followed right behind. As 
we passed up there the grocery store, Albertson Brothers, a young man 
was up there with a paper sack getting some stuff out of a box on the 
sidewalk, and he had his little baby standing by the side of him, and just 
as Mr. Frank passed by him, I was a little behind Mr. Frank, and Mr. 
Frank said something to me, and by him looking back at me and saying 
something to me, he hit up against the man's baby, and the man turned 
around and looked to see who it was, and he looked directly in my face, 
but I never did catch the idea what Mr. Frank said. Mr. Frank stopped 
at Curtis' Drug Store, corner Mitchell and Forsyth Streets, went into the 
soda fountain. He came out and went straight on to the factory, me right 
behind him. When we got to the factory we both went on the inside, and 
Mr. Frank stopped me at the door and when he stopped me at the door he 



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put his hand on the door and turned the door and says: "You see, you 
turn the knob just like this and there can't nobody come in from the out- 
side," and I says, "All right," and I walked back to a little box back 

[53] 

there by the trash barrel. He told me to push the box up against the trash 
barrel and sit on it, and he says. "Now, there will be a young lady up 
here after awhile, and me and her are going to chat a little," and he says, 
"Now, when the lady comes, I will stomp like I did before," and he says, 
"That will be the lady, and you go and shut the door," and I says, "All 
right, sir." And he says, "Now, when I whistle I will be through, so you 
can go and unlock the door and you come upstairs to my office then like 
you were going to borrow some money for me and that will give the 
young lady time to get out." I says, "All right, I will do just as you 
say," and I did as he said. Mr. Frank hit me a little blow on my chest 
and says, "Now, whatever you do, don't let Mr. Darley see you." I says, 
"All right, I won't let him see me." Then Mr. Frank went upstairs and 
he said, "Remember to keep your eyes open," and I says, "All right, I 
will, Mr. Frank." And I sat there on the box and that was the last I seen 
of Mr. Frank until up in the day sometime. The first person I saw that 
morning after I got in there was Mr. Darley, he went upstairs. The next 
person was Miss Mattie Smith, she went on upstairs, then I saw her come 
down from upstairs. Miss Mattie walked to the door and stopped, and 
Mr. Darley comes on down to the door where Miss Mattie was, and he 
says," Don't you worry, I will see that you get that next Saturday. " And 
Miss Mattie came on out and went up Alabama Street and Mr. Darley 
went back upstairs. Seemed like Miss Mattie was crying, she was wiping 
her eyes when she was standing down there. This was before I went to 
Nelson and Forsyth Streets. After we got back from Montag Brothers, 
the first person I saw come along was a lady that worked on the fourth 
floor, I don't know her name. She went on up the steps. The next per- 
son that came along was the negro drayman, he went on upstairs. He 
was a peg-legged fellow, real dark. The next I saw this negro and Mr. 
Holloway coming back down the steps. Mr. Holloway was putting on 
his glasses and had a bill in his hands, and he went out towards the wagon 
on the sidewalk, then Mr. Holloway came back up the steps, then after 
Mr. Darley came down and left, Mr. Holloway came down and left. Then 
this lady that worked on the fourth floor came down and left. The next 
person I saw coming there was Mr. Quinn. He went upstairs, stayed 
a little while and then came down. The next person that I saw was 
Miss Mary Perkins, that's what I call her, this lady that is dead, I 
don't know her name. After she went upstairs I heard her footsteps go- 
ing towards the office and after she went in the office, I heard two people 
walking out of the office and going like they were coming down the steps, 
but they didn't come down the steps, they went back towards the metal 
department. After they went back there, I heard the lady scream, then 
I didn't hear no more, and the next person I saw coming in there was 
Miss Monteen Stover. She had on a pair of tennis shoes and a rain coat. 
She stayed there a pretty good while, it wasn't so very long either. She 



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came back down the steps and left. After she came back down the steps 
and left, I heard somebody from the metal department come running back 
there upstairs, on their tiptoes, then I heard somebody tiptoeing back 

[54] 

towards the metal department. After that I kind of dozed off and went 
to sleep. Next thing I knew Mr. Frank was up over my head stamping 
and then I went and locked the door, and sat on the box a little while, and 
the next thing I heard was Mr. Frank whistling. I don't know how many 
minutes it was after that I heard him whistle. When I heard him whist- 
ling I went and unlocked the door just like he said, and went on up the 
steps. Mr. Frank was standing up there at the top of the steps and shiv- 
ering and trembling and rubbing his hands like this. He had a little rope 
in his hands— a long wide piece of cord. His eyes were large and they 
looked right funny. He looked funny out of his eyes. His face was red. 
Yes, he had a cord in his hands just like this here cord. After I got up to 
the top of the steps, he asked me," Did you see that little girl who passed 
here just a while ago?" and I told him I saw one come along there and 
she come back again, and then I saw another one come along there and 
she hasn't come back down, and he says, "Well, that one you say didn't 
come back down, she came into my office awhile ago and wanted to know 
something about her work in my office and I went back there to see if the 
little girl's work had come, and I wanted to be with the little girl, and 
she refused me, and I struck her and I guess I struck her too hard and she 
fell and hit her head against something, and I don't know how bad she 
got hurt. Of course you know I ain't built like other men. The reason he 
said that was, I had seen him in a position I haven't seen any other man 
that has got children. I have seen him in the office two or three times be- 
fore Thanksgiving and a lady was in his office, and she was sitting down 
in a chair (and she had her clothes up to here, and he was down on his 
knees, and she had her hands on Mr. Frank. I have seen him another 
time there in the packing room with a young lady lying on the table, she 
was on the edge of the table when I saw her). He asked me if I wouldn't 
go back there and bring her up so that he could put her somewhere, and 
he said to hurry, that there would be money in it for me. When I came 
back there, I found the lady lying flat of her back with a rope around her 
neck. The cloth was also tied around her neck and part of it was under 
her head like to catch blood. I noticed the clock after I went back there 
and found the lady was dead and came back and told him. The clock 
was four minutes to one. She was dead when I went back there and I 
came back and told Mr. Frank the girl was dead and he said "Sh-Sh!" 
He told me to go back there by the cotton box, get a piece of cloth, put it 
around her and bring her up. I didn't hear what Mr. Frank said, and I 
came on up there to hear what he said. He was standing on the top of 
the steps, like he was going down the steps, and while I was back in the 
metal department I didn't understand what he said, and I came on back 
there to understand what he did say, and he said to go and get a piece of 
cloth to put around her, and I went and looked around the cotton box and 
got a piece of cloth and went back there. The girl was lying flat on her 



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back and her hands were out this way. I put both of her hands down 
easily, and rolled her up in the cloth and taken the cloth and tied her up, 
and started to pick up her, and I looked back a little distance and saw her 

[55] 

hat and a piece of ribbon laying down and her slippers and I taken them 
and put them all in the cloth and I ran my right arm through the cloth 
and tried to bring it up on my shoulder. The cloth was tied just like a 
person that was going to give out clothes on Monday, they get the clothes 
and put them on- the inside of a sheet and take each corner and tie the 
four corners together, and I run my right arm through the cloth after I 
tied it that way and went to put it on my shoulder, and I found I couldn't 
get it on my shoulder, it was heavy and I carried it on my arm the best I 
could, and when I got away from the little dressing room that was in the 
metal department, I let her fall, and I was scared and I kind of jumped, 
and I said, 'Mr. Frank,, you will have to help me with this girl, she is 
heavy," and he come and caught her by the feet and I laid hold of her by 
the shoulders, and when we got her that way I was backing and Mr. Frank 
had her by the feet, and Mr. Frank kind of put her on me, he was nervous 
and trembling, and after we got up a piece from where we got her at, he 
let her feet drop and then he picked her up and we went on to the eleva- 
tor, and he pulled down on one of the cords and the elevator wouldn't go, 
and he said, Wait, let me go in the office and get the key," and he went 
in the office and got the key and come back and unlocked the switchboard 
and the elevator went down to the basement, and we carried her out and 
I opened the cloth and rolled her out there on the floor, and Mr. Frank 
turned around and went on up the ladder, and I noticed her hat and slip- 
per and piece of ribbon and I said, "Mr. Frank, what am I going to do 
with these things?" and he said, "Just leave them right there," and I 
taken the things and pitches them over in front of the boiler, and after 
Mr. Frank had left I goes on over to the elevator and he said, "Come on 
up and I will catch you on the first floor," and I got on the elevator and 
started it to the first floor, and Mr. Frank was running up there. He 
didn't give me time to stop the elevator, he was so nervous and trembly, 
and before the elevator got to the top of the first floor Mr. Frank made 
the first, step onto the elevator and by the elevator being a little down 
like that, he stepped down on it and hit me quite a blow right over about 
my chest and that jammed me up against the elevator and when we got 
near the second floor he tried to step off before it got to the floor and his 
foot caught on the second floor as he was stepping off and that made him 
stumble and he fell back sort of against me, and he goes on and takes the 
keys back to his office and leaves the box unlocked. I followed him into 
his private office and I sat down and he commenced to rubbing his hands 
and began to rub back his hair and after awhile he got up and said, 
"Jim," and I didn't say nothing, and all at once he happened to look out 
of the door and there was somebody coming, and he said, " My God, here 
is Emma Clarke and Corinthia Hall," and he said "Come over here Jim, 
I have got to put you in this wardrobe, and he put me in this wardrobe, 
and I stayed there a good while and they come in there and I heard them 



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go out, and Mr. Frank come there and said, "You are in a tight place," 
and I said "Yes," and he said "You done very well." So after they went 
out and he had stepped in the hall and had come back he let me out of the 

[56] 

wardrobe, and he said "You sit down," and I went and sat down, and 
Mr. Frank sat down. But the chair he had was too little for him or too 
big for him or it wasn't far enough back or something. He reached on 
the table to get a box of cigarettes and a box of matches, and he takes a 
cigarette and a match and hands me the box of cigarettes and I lit one and 
went to smoking and I handed him back the box of cigarettes, and he put 
it back in his pocket and then he took them out again and said, "You can 
have these," and I put them in my pocket, and then he said, "Can you 
write ?" and I said, "Yes, sir, a little bit," and he taken his pencil to fix 
up some notes. I was willing to do anything to help Mr. Frank because 
he was a white man and my superintendent, and he sat down and I sat 
down at the table and Mr. Frank dictated the notes to me. Whatever it 
was it didn't seem to suit him, and he told me to turn over and write 
again, and I turned the paper and wrote again, and when I done that he 
told me to turn over again and I turned over again and wrote on the next 
page there, and he looked at that and kind of liked it and he said that was 
all right. Then he reached over and got another piece of paper, a green 
piece, and told me what to write. He took it and laid it on his desk and 
looked at me smiling and rubbing his hands, and then he pulled out a 
nice little roll of greenbacks, and he said, "Here is $200," and I taken 
the money and looked at it a little bit and I said, "Mr. Frank, don't you 
pay another dollar for that watchman, because I will pay him myself," 
and he said, "All right, I don't see what you want to buy a watch for 
either, that big fat wife of mine wanted me to buy an automobile and I 
wouldn't do it." And after awhile Mr. Frank looked at me and said, 
"You go down there in the basement and you take a lot of trash and burn 
that package that's in front of the furnace," and I told him all right. But 
I was afraid to go down there by myself, and Mr. Frank wouldn't go down 
there with me. He said, "There's no need of my going down there," and 
I said, "Mr. Frank, you are a white man and you done it, and I am not 
going down there and burn that myself." He looked at me then kind of 
frightened and he said "Let me see that money" and he took the money 
back and put it back in his pocket, and I said, "Is this the way you do 
things?" and he said, "You keep your mouth shut, that is all right." 
And Mr. Frank turned around in his chair and looked at the money and 
he looked back at me and folded his hands and looked up and said, "Why 
should I hang? I have wealthy people in Brooklyn," and he looked down 
when he said that, and I looked up at him, and he was looking up at the 
ceiling, and I said," Mr. Frank what about me?" and he said, " That's all 
right, don't you worry about this thing, you just come back to work Mon- 
day like you don't know anything, and keep your mouth shut, if you get 
caught I will get you out on bond and send you away," and he said, 
"Can you come back this evening and do it?" and I said "Yes, that I was 
coming to get my money." He said, "Well, I am going home to get din- 



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ner and you come back here in about forty minutes and I will fix the 
money," and I said, "How will I get in?" and he said, "There will be a 
place for you to get in all right, but if you are not coming back let me 

[57] 

know, and I will take those things and put them down with the body," 
and I said, "All right, I will be back in about forty minutes." Then I 
went down over to the beer saloon across the street and I took the ciga- 
rettes out of the box and there was some money in there and I took that 
out and there was two paper dollar bills in there and two silver quarters 
and I took a drink, and then I bought me a double header and drank it 
and I looked around at another colored fellow standing there and I asked 
him did he want a glass of beer and he said "No," and I looked at the 
clock and it said twenty minutes to two and the man in there asked me 
was I going home, and I said, "Yes," and I walked south on Forsyth 
Street to Mitchell and Mitchell to Davis, and I said to the fellow that was 
with me "I am going back to Peters Street," and a Jew across the street 
that I owed a dime to called me and asked me about it and I paid him that 
dime. Then I went on over to Peters Street and stayed there awhile. 
Then I went home and I taken fifteen cents out of my pocket and gave a 
little girl a nickle to go and get some sausage and then I gave her a 
dime to go and get some wood, and she stayed so long that when she came 
back I said, "I will cook this sausage and eat it and go back to Mr. 
Frank's," and I laid down across the bed and went to sleep, and I didn't 
get up no more until half past six o'clock that night, that's the last I saw 
of Mr. Frank that Saturday. I saw him next time on Tuesday on the 
fourth floor when I was sweeping. He walked up and he said, "Now re- 
member, keep your mouth shut," and I said, "All right," and he said, 
"If you'd come back on Saturday and done what I told you to do with it 
down there, there wouldn't have been no trouble." This conversation 
took place between ten and eleven o'clock Tuesday. Mr. Frank knew I 
could write a little bit, because he always gave me tablets up there at the 
office so I could write down what kind of boxes we had and I would give 
that to Mr. Frank down at his office and that's the way he knew I could 
write. I was arrested on Thursday, May 1st, Mr. Frank told me just 
what to write on those notes there. That is the same pad he told me to 
write on (State's Exhibit A). The girl's body was lying somewhere 
along there about No. 9 on that picture (State's Exhibit A). I dropped 
her somewhere along No. 7. We got on elevator on the second floor. The 
box that Mr. Frank unlocked was right around here on side of elevator. 
He told me to come back in about forty minutes to do that burning. Mr. 
Frank went in the office and got the key to unlock the elevator. The notes 
were fixed up in Mr. Frank's private office. I never did know what be- 
came of the notes. Heft home that morning about 7 or 7:30. I noticed 
the clock when I went from the factory to go to Nelson and Forsyth 
Streets, the clock was in a beer saloon on the corner of Mitchell Street. 
It said 9 minutes after 10. I don't know the name of the woman who was 
with Mr. Frank on Thanksgiving day. I know the man's name was Mr. 
Dalton. When I saw Mr. Frank coming towards the factory Saturday 



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morning he had on his raincoat and his usual suit of clothes and an um- 
brella. Up to Christmas I used to run the elevator, then they put me on 
the fourth floor to clean up. I cleaned up twice a week on the first floor 

[58] 

under Mr. Holloway's directions. The lady I saw in Mr. Frank's office 
Thanksgiving day was a tall built lady, heavy weight, she was nice look- 
ing, and she had on a blue looking dress with white dots in it and a gray- 
ish looking coat with kind of tails to it. The coat was open like that and 
she had on white slippers and stockings. On Thanksgiving day Mr. 
Frank told me to come to his office. I have never seen any cot or bed 
down in the basement. I refused to write for the police the first time. I 
told them I couldn't write. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am 27 years old. The last job I had was working for Dr. Palmer. I 
worked for him a year and a half. I worked before that for Orr Station- 
ery Company for three or four months. Before that I worked for S. S. 
Gordon. Before that I worked for Adams Woodward and Dr. Honey- 
well. Got my first job eleven years ago with Mr. S. M. Truitt. Next job 
was with W. S. Coates. I can't spell his name. I can't read and write 
good. I can't read the newspapers good. No, sir; I don't read the news- 
paper. I never do, I have tried, I found I couldn't and I quit. I can't 
read a paper right through. I can't go right straight down through the 
page, and that's the reason I don't read newspapers, I can't get any sense 
out of them. There is some little letters like" dis" and" dat" that I can 
read. The other things I don't understand. No, I can't spell "dis" and 
"dat." Yes, I can spell "school," and I can't spell "collar," I can spell 
"shirts." I can spell "shoes," and "hat." I spell "cat" with a "k." I 
can spell "dog," and most simple little words like that. I don't know 
about spelling "mother." I can spell "papa." I spell it p-a-p-a. I can't 
spell "father " or "jury" or "judge" or "stockings." I never did go to 
school further than the first grade. I went to school about a year. I can 
spell" day," but not" daylight," I can spell" beer" but not" whiskey." 
I couldn't read the name "whiskey." No, I can't read any letter on that 
picture there (Exhibit A, State). I can't figure except with my fingers. 
I know the figures as far as eight, as far as twelve. I knows more about 
counting than I do about figuring. I don't know what year it was I went 
to school. I worked for Truitt about two years, for Mr. Coates five years, 
for Mr. Woodward and Mr. Honeywell about a year and a pressing club 
about two years, Orr Stationery Company three or four months, Dr. Pal- 
mer about a year and a half, and then I went to work for the pencil fac- 
tory. Mr. Herbert Schiff employed me at the pencil factory. Sometimes 
Mr. Schiff paid me off, sometimes Mr. Gantt, sometimes Mr. Frank. I 
don't remember when I saw Mr. Frank pay me off or how many times. I 
drawed my money very seldom. I would always have somebody else 
draw it for me. I told Mr. Holloway to let Gordon Bailey draw my money 
mostly. He's the one they call "Snowball." The reason why I didn't 
draw it myself I would be owing some of the boys around the factory and 
I didn't have it to pay, and I would leave the factory about half past 



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eleven so that I didn't have to pay it, and then I would have Snowball 

[59] 

draw my money for me mostly. I would see him afterwards and he would 
give me the money. Sometimes I would go down through the basement 
out the back way to keep away from them. The reason I let them draw 
my money I owed some of them, and some of them owed me and I wanted 
them to pay me first before I paid them. I didn't want to get my money 
on the inside because I didn't want them to see such a little I was draw- 
ing to what they were drawing. I wasn't drawing but $6.05. Snowball 
was drawing $6.05. As to who it was I didn't want to see what I was 
drawing, there was one named Walter Pride; he's been there five years. 
He said he drew $12.00 a week. Then there was Joe Pride, he told me he 
drew $8.40 a week. They were down in the basement and asked me how 
much I was drawing. I told them it wasn't none of their business. Then 
there was a fellow named Fred. I don't know how much he drew. The 
next one was the fireman. I don't know how much he drew. There were 
two or three others, but I didn't have no talk with them. I was just hid- 
ing what I drew from Walter Pride. As to whether I couldn't draw my 
money after Walter drew his without his knowing it, well he would al- 
ways be down there waiting for me. As to whether I couldn't get my 
money without his being behind me and seeing what I got, he could see if 
I tore open the envelope. I had to open it to pay them with. That's the 
reason I didn't go and draw my money. I know I could have put it in my 
pocket, but I couldn't tear it open unless I took it out. Yes, the reason I 
didn't draw my money was because I didn't want to pay them. That's 
the reason I let Snowball draw my money. They could have slipped up 
behind me and looked. As to whether I couldn't walk off and keep them 
from seeing it, if I didn't tear it open, then they would keep up with me 
until I did. He would follow me around. No, I wasn't trying to keep out 
of paying them. As to what I was trying to do, if they paid me then I 
would pay them. The way I liked to settle with them, I liked to take 
them to the beer saloon and buy twice as much as they get. If I was there 
when they come in on me, I would say, "I owe you, let's drink it up." 
Yes, I would get out of it if I could, but if they saw me walk up and pay 
them that way. I paid Walter Pride sometimes that way and sometimes 
the other way. I would say, "I owe you fifteen cents, I buy three beers, 
and you owe me fifteen cents, and that be three beers." I say if I would 
be in the beer saloon when they come in there, I would do that, but if I 
could get out before they saw me, I would be gone. I never did know 
what time the watchman come there on Saturday, or any Saturday. I 
never have seen the night watchman in the factory. I have seen young 
Mr. Kendrick come and get his money. He always comes somewhere 
about two o'clock to get his money. I-have seen him lots of times Satur- 
day and get his money. He always got it from Mr. Frank at two o'clock. 
No, I didn't know Newt Lee. I heard them say there was a negro night 
watchman, but I never did know that he was a negro. I knew they paid 
employees off at twelve o'clock. I don't know what time the night watch- 
man would come there to work. Mr. Holloway stays until 2:30. 1 couldn't 



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tell the first time I ever watched for Mr. Frank. Sometimes during the 

[60] 

last summer, somewhere just about in July. As to what he said to get 
me to watch for him that was on a Saturday, I would be there sweeping 
and Mr. Frank come out and called me in his office. I always worked un- 
til half past four in the evening. I would leave about half past twelve, 
ring out and come back about half past one or two. Sometimes I would 
ring in when I came back and sometimes I wouldn't. I ringed in every 
morning when I came. I never did ring in much. I would do it after 
they got after me about it. It was my habit not to do it. As to how they 
would know how much to pay me if I didn't ring in, I knew they paid me 
$1.10 a day, all the time. No, they didn't pay me by the clock punches, 
they paid me by the day, they paid me lie. an hour. Sometimes I would 
punch the clock when I got there; that was my duty. Sometimes I was 
paid when I didn't work, I don't know how that happened, but Mr. Frank 
would come and tell me I didn't take out that money for the time you lost 
last week. I don't know on what date he ever did that on. Yes, I always 
got my money in envelopes. As to how they would know how much to 
put in the envelope, when I didn't punch, they would come and ask if 
I was here every time I didn't ring in, and they would ask Mr. Holloway 
if I was here. .If the clock didn't show any punch, they would ask me if I 
was here at that hour. No they wouldn't ask how many hours I was here, 
they would just ask if I was here a certain hour and then they would pay 
me for the full day, whether I punched the clock or not, just so I punched 
it in the morning. The lady that was with Mr. Frank the time I watched 
for him some time last July was Miss Daisy Hopkins. It would always 
be somewhere between 3 and 3:30. I was sweeping on the second floor. 
Mr. Frank called me in his office. There was a lady in there with him. 
That was Miss Daisy Hopkins. She was present when he talked to me. 
He said "You go down there and see nobody don't come up and you will 
have a chance to make some money. The other lady had gone out to get 
that young man, Mr. Dalton. I don't know how long she had been gone. 
She came back after a wlhile with Mr. Dalton. They came upstairs to Mr. 
Frank's office, stayed there ten or fifteen minutes. They came back down, 
they didn't go out and she says, "All right, James." About an hour af- 
ter that Mr. Frank came down. This lady and man after she said "All 
right, James" went down through the trap door into the basement. 
There's a place on the first floor that leads into another department and 
there's a trap door in there and a stairway that leads down in the base- 
ment, and they pull out that trap door and go down in the basement. I 
opened the trap door for them. The reason I opened the trap door be- 
cause she said she was ready, I knew where she was going because Mr. 
Frank told me to watch, he told me where they were going. I don't know 
how long they stayed down there. I don't know when they came back. I 
watched the door all the time. Mr. Dalton gave me a quarter and went 
out laughing and the lady went up the steps. Then the ladies came down 
and left, and then Mr. Frank came down after they left. That was about 
half past four. He gave me a quarter and I left and then he left. The 



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next Saturday I watched was right near the same thing. It was about 

[61] 

the last of July or the first of August. The next Saturday I watched for 
him about twelve o'clock he said "You know what you done for me last 
Saturday, I want to put you wise for this Saturday." I said, "All right, 
what time ?" He said, "Oh, about half past." After Mr. Holloway left, 
Miss Daisy Hopkins came on in into the office, Mr. Frank came out of the 
office, popped his fingers, bowed his head and went back into the office. 
I was standing there by the clock. Yes, he popped his fingers and bowed 
to me, and then I went down and stood by the door. He stayed there 
that time about half an hour and then the girl went out. He gave me half 
a dollar this time. The next time I watched for him and Mr. Dalton too, 
somewhere along in the winter time, before Thanksgiving Day, some- 
where about the last part of August. Yes, that's somewhere near the 
winter. This time he spoke to me on the fourth floor in the morning. 
Gordon Bailey was standing there when he spoke to me. He said, "I 
want to put you wise again for to-day." The lady that came in that day 
was one who worked on the fourth floor; it was not Miss Daisy Hopkins. 
A nice looking lady, kind of slim. She had hair like Mr. Hooper's. She 
had a green suit of clothes on. When Miss Daisy Hopkins came she had 
on a black skirt and white waist the first time. I don't know the name of 
that lady that works on the fourth floor. Yes, I have seen her lots of 
times at the factory, but I don't know her name. She went right to Mr. 
Frank's office, then I went and watched. She stayed about half an hour 
and come out. Mr. Frank went out of the factory and then came back. I 
stayed there and waited for him. He said, "I didn't take out that 
money." I said, "Yes, I seed'you didn't. He said "That's all right, old 
boy, I don't want you to say anything to Mr. Herbert or Mr. Darley about 
what's going on around here." Next time I watched for him was Thanks- 
giving Day. I met Mr. Frank that morning about eight o'clock. He said 
"A lady will be in here in a little while, me and her are going to chat, I 
don't want you to do no work, I just want you to watch." In about half 
an hour the lady came. I didn't know that lady, she didn't work at the 
factory. I think I saw her in the factory two or three nights before 
Thanksgiving Day in Mr. Frank's office. She was a nice looking lady. I 
think she had on black clothes. She was very tall, heavy built lady. Af- 
ter she came in that Thanksgiving Day morning, I closed the door after 
he stamped for me to close it. She went upstairs towards Mr. Frank's 
office. Mr. Frank came out there and stamped, and I closed the door. 
Mr. Frank said, "I'll stamp after this lady comes and you go and close 
the door and turn the night latch." That's the first time he told me about 
the night lock. And he says, "If everything is all right you kick against 
the door," and I kicked against the door. After an hour and a half Mr. 
Frank came down and unlocked the doors and says, "Everything is all 
right." He then went and looked up the street and told the lady to come 
on downstairs. After she came down, she said to Mr. Frank, "Is that 
the nigger '?" and Mr. Frank said, "Yes," and she said, "Well, does he 
talk much ?" and he says, "No, he is the best nigger I have ever seen." 



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Mr. Frank called me in the office and gave me $1.25. The lady had on a 

[62] 

blue skirt with white dots in it and white slippers and white stockings 
and had a gray tailor-made coat, with pieces of velvet on the edges of it. 
The velvet was black and the cloth of the coat was gray. She had on a 
black hat with big black feathers. I left a little before 12 o'clock. I 
didn't see anybody else there that day at the office. The next time I 
watched was way after Christmas, on a Saturday about the middle of 
January-somewhere about the first or middle. It was right after New 
Year, one or two, or three or four days after. It was on a Saturday. He 
said a young man and two ladies would be coming. That was that Sat- 
urday morning at half past seven. I was standing by the side of Gordon 
Bailey when he come and told me, and he said, I could make a piece of 
money off that man. Yes, Snowball could hear what he said. The man 
and ladies came about half past two or three o'clock. They stayed there 
about two hours. I didn't know either one of the ladies. I can't describe 
what either one of them had on. The man was tall, slim built, a heavy, 
man. I have seen him at the factory talking to Holloway, he didn't work 
there. I have seen him often talking to Holloway, through the week. You 
asked me what I did the second Saturday after I watched for him, well, I 
don't remember. As to what I did the Saturday I watched for him the 
second time, I disremember what I did. The Saturday after that, I think 
about the first of August, I did some more watching for him. I don't re- 
member what I did the Saturday before Thanksgiving Day. I don't re- 
member what I did the Saturday after Thanksgiving Day. I don't re- 
member what I did the next Saturday. I don't know, sir, what I did the 
next Saturday. The next Saturday I did some watching for him. I 
watched for him somewhere about the last of November after Thanks- 
giving Day. No, I don't remember any of those dates. Couldn't tell you 
to save my life what time I left home the first time I watched for him. I 
couldn't tell you what time I got to the factory the second time I watched 
for him, nor what time I left home. I don't know whether I drew my 
money on the first Saturday I watched for him. I disremember whether 
anybody else drew my money for me the second Saturday I watched for 
him. I don't know how much I drew. I couldn't tell you whether I drew 
my money Thanksgiving Day or not. I don't know how much I drew. I 
don't remember what time I got down or what time I left. I don't know 
when I got to the factory the day before Thanksgiving, or how long I 
worked there. I don't remember how many hours I worked the first Sat- 
urday I watched for him or the second, or the third, or Thanksgiving 
Day. No, I don't know how much I drew on those days. The first time I 
was in prison was in September. The next was sometime before Christ- 
mas, I can't remember the date. I was there thirty days. It was some- 
where along in October. A year before that I was in prison too, about 
thirty days. I have been in prison three times since I have been with the 
pencil company. I have been in prison about three times within the last 
three or four years. I have been in prison seven or eight times within the 
last four or five years. I can't give you any of the dates, nor how long I 



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stayed there any of the times that I was there. I don't know what month 

[63] 

or what day it was, nor how long I stayed there. I knew the factory was 
not going to be run on April 26th. Yes, Snowball and I drank beer to- 
gether sometimes in the building. Yes, we used to go down in the base- 
ment and drink together, but he aint the only man. I never was drunk at 
the factory. Snowball wasn't there the first Saturday I watched for Mr. 
Frank. I think he laid off. I don't know whether he was there the sec- 
ond or third Saturdays, I didn't see him Thanksgiving morning, but I 
saw him the day before Thanksgiving. That was the time that Mr. Frank 
told me to watch for him. He talked to me before Snowball. I don't 
know whether Snowball was there in January when I watched. Snow- 
ball was there in January in the box room when Mr. Frank told me to 
watch for him. I don't know whether Mr. Frank knew he was there or 
not. There were eight niggers in all working in the factory. Snowball, 
the fireman and me did just plain manual labor, the rest of the negroes 
had better jobs. Snowball, the fireman and I were the last negroes to get 
jobs there. We were the new darkies; the others had been working there 
before we went there. Mr. Frank used to laugh and jolly with me. I 
couldn't tell you the first time he did this. Mr. Darley has seen him jol- 
lying me. They would jolly me together. They would play and go on 
around there with me. It has been so long ago I can't tell you any of the 
jokes. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Holloway has seen him joking with me. He 
would say, "Come on I am going to make a graveyard down there in the 
basement if you don't hurry and bring that elevator back up here." Mr. 
Holloway heard him say that. Mr. Schiff has seen him playing with me. 
He would goose me and punch me and tell me I was a good negro. I don't 
remember anything else he said. Yes, Mr. Darley would goose me and 
kick me a little bit, just playing with me. Mr. Schiff would crack jokes 
with me. I don't remember the time. The time Mr. Frank came in the 
elevator and told me about watching for him, he didn't know Snowball 
was in there. Snowball was standing right there by me. Mr. Frank could 
have seen him and he could have heard anything that was said. He saw 
Snowball standing there, I have been at the factory over two years. I 
don't remember the day or month I went there. It was some time in 1910. 
I don't remember whether it was summer or winter. Miss Daisy Hop- 
kins worked on the fourth floor in 1912. I don't know when she quit. I 
saw her working from June, 1912, up until about Christmas. Yes, I 
worked on the same floor with her, I don't know whether she worked 
there in 1913. Miss Daisy was a low lady, kind of heavy, and she was 
pretty, low, chunky kind of heavy weight. I don't know what color hair 
she had or eyes, or her complexion. She was light skinned. She looked 
to be about twenty-three. I know she was there in June, because she gave 
me a note to take down to Mr. Schiff. I remember that because the note 
had June on it. Mr. Schiff said it had "June" on it when he read it. I 
can't read but he read that note and he read 'June something," it was 
on the outside of the note. It was on the back of the note. "June" was 
written on the back of that note. She wrote the note and folded it up 



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and he read "June" on the back of it and he laughed at it. The reason 

[64] 

I know she left the factory during Christmas because Mr. Dalton told 
me she wasn't coming back. He told me that one Saturday coming down 
to the factory. I never have seen Mr. Dalton except at the factory. No, 
he doesn't work there. I saw him somewhere along in January. He came 
out that time by himself. He and a lady had been down in the basement. 
The last time I saw him the detectives brought him down at the station 
house and asked if I had ever seen him in there. I saw Mr. Holloway at 
the factory the first Saturday I watched for Mr. Frank. The next Satur- 
day I watched, he was sick and wasn't there. He was sick two Saturdays 
in June. I disremember whether I saw Mr. Schiff and Mr. Darley. I re- 
member seeing Mr. Darley at the factory on Thanksgiving Day. I don't 
remember what time he left. I couldn't tell you anybody who came to 
the factory the first Saturday I watched. The second time I think there 
were some young ladies working up on the fourth floor. I don't know 
about the third time. I don't know whether anybody was working there 
Thanksgiving or not. I didn't see Mr. Schiff at all. I will swear that he 
was not in the office with Mr. Frank. I don't know whether any ladies 
were working there the next time or not. I have been back in the metal 
department, but I never have been on the right hand side where the" ma- 
chines are. I have swept on the second floor, but not in the metal depart- 
ment. I don't know where those vats are back there. I don't know what 
you are talking about. I don't know anything about the plating room. I 
never have been in Mr. Quinn's office. I have put disinfect-ants in the 
ladies' and gentlemen's closets back there. I wouldn't go inside. I would 
only go to the door. I stood outside of the door and sprinkled it in a little 
way. Outside of that, and going to Mr. Quinn's office I have never been 
on the left hand side of the factory. I have been there where they wash 
the lead at, and I have stuck bills in Mr. Quinn's office. Yes, I have been 
back in there where that dark place is. I don't know how many times I 
have stacked some boxes back there. I have been back there three times 
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir, you can see from the 
top of the stairway back in there. I have been back there three times 
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir; you can see from the 
top of the stairway to Mr. Frank's inside office. A man sitting at Mr. 
Frank's desk can see people coming up the stairway if he is watching for 
them. If the safe door is open I don't hardly think he can see them. If 
it is shut he can. I am certain of that. I thought you were talking about 
the third floor. He couldn't see people coming up from the first floor. He 
can see them after they get along by the clock. I left the factory 5:30 
Friday afternoon, before the factory stopped. I think I punched when I 
went out. One of them was ten minutes fast. That was the one on the 
right, I left there without drawing my money because I knew I wasn't 
going to draw but $2.75 and I owed the watchman a dollar and I knowed 
I wouldn't have enough for me and to pay him and I told Mr. Holloway 
to let Snowball draw it for me. Snowball drew it for me and met me at 
the shoe shop at the corner of Alabama and Forsyth Street. He gave me 



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$3.75. I wasn't supposed to draw but $2.75, and Mr. Frank taken that 

[65] 

dollar for the watchman and stuck an extra dollar in my envelope and 
that made $3.75. I don't remember how many beers I drank Friday. 
Yes, I told Mr. Scott I got up at 9 o'clock that morning. That wasn't 
true. I ate breakfast about seven. Yes, I told Mr. Black I ate at 9:30. 
That wasn't true. I left my house between 7"and 7:30. I told Mr. Scott 
I left somewhere between 10 and 10:30. No, that wasn't true. I got to 
Peters Street about 25 minutes to 8. I don't know how long I stayed 
there. Some things in my affidavit that I made that are true. Yes, there 
are some things in my last affidavit that are true. I was arrested on the 
first of May. I sent for Mr. Black to come down when I made my first 
statement on May 18th. Yes, I denied I had been to the factory in that 
statement. I made that statement in the detectives' office. Mr. Black 
and Mr. Scott were present. They didn't question two or three hours. I 
did some writing before then, before that statement was made. Yes, I 
know I did some writing before May 18th. I did some writing in Chief's 
office that Sunday. I told Black I bought whiskey on Peters Street at 
about 10:30. I told them I paid forty cents for ft. I don't remember tell- 
ing them that I bought the whiskey at 1 1 o'clock. Yes, I told them I went 
into the Butt-In Saloon after I went to Earley's for the whiskey. Some 
of it I told them was the truth and some of it wasn't. They asked me if I 
was lying and I held my head down. I held back some of the truth, and 
when they asked me if that was the truth I hung my head down. I didn't 
want to give the man away, but I wanted to tell some and let him see what 
I was going to do and see if he wasn't going to stick to his promise as he 
had said. I told them I went into Butt-In Saloon and saw some negroes 
at tables shooting dice and I won ninety cents and bought a glass of beer. 
I told them that I went to three beer saloons. I told them after I went 
home at 2:30, 1 went to Joe Carr's saloon and got 15c. worth of beer. I 
don't remember telling them that I went there between 3:30 and four 
o'clock. The detectives talked to me nearly every day after I made my 
first statement. Sometimes hours at a time. No, they didn't cuss me. 
Yes. I sent for Black on May 24th. When the statement came out in the 
papers that's the time I sent for him. As to how I knew it came out in 
the papers, I heard the boys across the street hollering extra papers. Mr. 
Black came down after I sent for him and I told him it's awful hot in 
here, and I told him I was going to tell him something, but I wasn't going 
to tell him all of it now. I told him that I would tell him part and hold 
part back. Scott and Black were both there. Yes, I told Mr. Black on 
May 24th, the time I made the second statement, that I helped tote the 
little girl. I sure remember that. I think I told them about Mr. Frank 
getting me to watch for him, that he told me he struck a girl and for me 
to go back and get her. I didn't give Mr. Frank clear away that time. I 
kept some things back. I don't remember now whether I told them at 
that time or not. I don't know whether I told them about going down 
the basement or not. The first time I told them I wrote the notes on Fri- 
day. They didn't tell me my story wouldn't fit. I don't remember them 



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telling me anything about changing my statement. I told them that was 

[66] 

all I had to say. They never told me they wanted me to tell anything 
else. They didn't say anything to me that it didn't sound right. Mr. 
Black talked to me right smart and Mr. Lanford talked to me a little. No, 
they never talked to me a whole day. As to why I changed my statement 
from Friday to Saturday, I put it on Saturday, because I was at the fac- 
tory on Saturday. As to why I didn't put myself there on Saturday, the 
blame would be put on me. I didn't want them to know that I had writ- 
ten any notes for Mr. Frank. Yes, in that statement I told the officers I 
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that I got up at nine 
o'clock, because there was nothing doing at the factory that day at the 
time. I said I was there at 9 o'clock, because he had done told me where 
to meet him at. Yes, I told them that I was going to tell the whole truth. 
Yes, the reason I told them I left home at 9 or 9:30, because there was 
not anything doing at the factory at that time. I told them it was about 
9 o'clock when I looked at the clock, because I don't know what time it 
was when I looked at the clock, and I told them I had some steak and 
some sausage for breakfast and a piece of liver and I drank some tea and 
bread. Well, there was some sausage, but I don't know whether I ate it 
or not. Yes, I had steak, liver and sausage for breakfast. I know I ate 
the steak and a piece of liver, and drank a cup of tea and ate some bread. 
I got up that morning at six o'clock. Yes, I told the officers I got up at 9 
or 9:30. I don't remember anything else I told them. Yes, I told them 
that I went straight to Peters Street and went in the first beer saloon 
there, and drank two beers and gave a fellow a beer, that had a whip 
around his neck. I told them three saloons and I called two names. I 
don't know whether I told them about this whiskey or not. I told them 
I bought it between 10 and 10:30. No, that is not true. I told them that 
on account of my saying I didn't leave home until about 9 or 9:30. I 
bought it about a quarter to eight. The reason I told these lies about the 
time was because I didn't want to put myself at the factory twice, be- 
cause there wasn't anything doing at the factory that morning. That is 
the only reason I told that story. I don't know when the first time was I 
told them I got there at 8 o'clock instead of 10 or half past, it was after I 
got out of jail up there. I guess I made most of these changes after I got 
out of jail. I don't know who the detective was I told about my not leav- 
ing home at 9 o'clock. Four of them were talking to me, all at the same 
time. I think it was Starnes and Campbell that I told that to, about 
changing the time. I don't remember whether I told them then that I 
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that after I got out of jail, 
after I got back to headquarters. If you tell a story you know you've got 
to change it. A lie won't work, and you know you've got to tell the whole 
truth. Yes, I knew it was bound to come when I told it the first time. I 
didn't tell the whole truth then, because I didn't want to give the whole 
thing away then. In the statement where I told about my moving the lit- 
tle girl for Mr. Frank, the reason why I didn't correct it then about the 
time I bought the liquor, I don't know whether I did it then or not, but I 



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did tell them. I told them I drank four or five beers that morning. I told 

[67] 

them at the first saloon I bought two beers. I didn't tell them I bought 
any wine at that time. I told them I had some wine put in my beer. What 
they call wine. It wasn't any wine though. I don't know whether I told 
them that in the statement I made about moving the little girl or not. 
The wine was put in my beer at Mr. Earl's beer saloon on Saturday morn- 
ing. I told that to Mr. Black and Mr. Scott, I don't remember when. As 
to my not testifying about that yesterday, you didn't ask me that. I re- 
member telling you that yesterday. I remember saying I didn't buy any 
wine. No, I didn't say anything about putting beer in wine yesterday, 
but I remember I said something about putting wine in beer. I know I 
told you that yesterday. I don't remember telling them I started straight 
from Peters Street to Capital City Laundry. I told them I started for the 
laundry after leaving Mr. Frank at the factory. If they have got it down 
there, I must have said so. I don't remember saying it. I told them I 
met Mr. Frank at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Street before I went 
to the factory. Yes, I told them I went from Peters Street and met him 
at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth before I went to the factory. As to 
why I told them that story, because I did meet him there. No, I didn't go 
straight from Peters Street to meet him at the corner of Nelson and For- 
syth as I told them. I went straight from Peters Street to the pencil fac- 
tory. I don't remember when the first time I told the truth about it. I 
told it either to Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Black or Mr. Scott. I 
told it after I got out of jail, I remember telling the officers when he said 
"Ah, ha," when I met him at the corner. I don't remember telling the 
officers that he asked me where I was going and I told him I was going to 
the Capital City Laundry to see my mother. I don't remember saying 
that to the officers. If I did say that it was not the truth. As to why I 
lied about that, because I did tell Mr. Frank down there when I left the 
factory that I was going to see my mother. I told the officers he stayed 
at Montag's about 20 minutes. I did tell you yesterday that I didn't have 
any idea how long he stayed there, because I haven't any idea now. As to 
why I didn't say yesterday that it was 20 minutes, because you didn't ask 
me. I didn't tell Mr. Dorsey how long it was, because he didn't ask me 
what I told detectives about it, but I told detectives that. I told them that 
story because I didn't have any idea how long he stayed there. I don't 
know how long Mr. Frank stayed there. I told the officers 20 minutes as 
that was the best I could do about it, so I just told him 20 minutes. I 
told the detectives about wanting me to watch for him when I got back to 
the factory. I don't know why I didn't tell them that at the time I told 
them about moving the body. I don't remember who I told it to or when, 
but I told them. I did tell them about Mr. Frank stamping his foot. I 
don't know whether I told them at the time I told about helping move the 
body. I told it to Mr. Scott, Mr. Black, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Starnes and 
Mr. Dorsey. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell wasn't in there sometimes 
when I told it. No, I didn't tell it to Mr. Scott and Mr. Black. They 
dropped the case and Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell taken it up. They 



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came down and was talking to me for a month or more in my cell. Yes, I 

[68] 

told Mr. Black about Frank stomping his foot and Mr. Scott. I told them 
all about it. Yes, I told the detectives that the first party I saw going up 
the factory after I got back from Montag's was Miss Mattie Smith. That 
was a mistake. I didn't see Mr. Darley go up after I got back from Mon- 
tag's. No, I didn't say yesterday that I saw him go up after I got back 
from Montag's. I don't know whether Mr. Darley saw me or not. I was 
sitting right there at the box. He could have seen me if he had looked, so 
could Miss Mattie Smith. The rest of them could have seen me if they 
had looked. Yes, I told the officers the first time I saw them go up was 
after I got back from Montag's. That was not so. I was just mistaken 
about it. Don't know when I corrected the mistake or to whom. Yes, I 
stated it to Mr. Dorsey. It was after I came from jail. I have corrected 
it to Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell too. It was about 1 1 :30 when Mr. 
Darley left the factory, right after we got back from Montag's. It may 
have been about 1 1 o'clock. Miss Mattie Smith left the factory some- 
where about 9:30. It was after we got back from Montag's that I saw Mr. 
Darley leave. Mr. Holloway and the peg-legged negro went upstairs and 
came down before Mr. Darley left the factory. They could have seen me 
sitting on the box, as they came out the factory. Mr. Holloway left about 
10 or 15 minutes after Mr. Darley left. It may have been four or five min- 
utes. After Mr. Holloway left, I told them Mr. Quinn came in. I may 
have told them that a lady dressed in green was the next one. That 
wasn't true. A lady in green did go up before Mr. Darley came down. 
She came down before Holloway and Darley left. If I told the officers 
that she went up after they left, I made a mistake. Mr. Quinn was the 
next man that went up after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes, I said that 
yesterday. Yes, I said yesterday Mr. Quinn was the last man I saw come 
down. No, I didn't say yesterday Miss Monteen Stover came down after 
Mr. Quinn came down. I might have told the officers that I saw Mr. Hol- 
loway return upstairs, turn to the right toward Hunter Street and go in 
the factory. If I did, I made a mistake. I don't remember all the mis- 
takes I made. No, I have never told about a lady going up there after 
them six or seven minutes, I was mistaken. I don't know whether I have 
ever corrected that mistake or not. She went upstairs and Mr. Quinn 
went up and came down before she did. If I told the officers she stayed 
there 7 or 8 minutes and came right down, I made a mistake. I don't 
think I corrected that mistake at all. I don't know how long it was after 
she came down before any body else went up and down. If I told the offi- 
cers it was 10 or 15 minutes that was a mistake. I don't think I corrected 
that mistake at all. I haven't got any idea at all how long before the lady 
in green came down that anybody else went up. Yes, I told Mr. Scott and 
Mr. Black that the only people who went up at all were Miss Mattie 
Smith, Darley, Holloway and the woman in green, and nobody went up 
and down until Mr. Frank whistled. No, that wasn't true. The reason 
why I told that story was because I didn't want them to know that these 
other people passed by me, for they might accuse me. The reason why I 



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didn't tell them was because I didn't want people to think that I was the 

[69] 

one that done the murder. I told them that I saw those four men go up 
because I didn't think they saw me sitting there, and I didn't tell of see- 
ing the other people for fear they would report on me. The reason why I 
told the police about those four going up there, because that is all I could 
remember that went up and down. I don't know when my memory got 
fresher about other people going up and down. I think it was after I got 
out of jail. I think I corrected that with Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell and 
Mr. Dorsey, at police headquarters. After I corrected with the detectives 
down at headquarters, they took me to Mr. Dorsey's office. I have been 
in Mr. Dorsey's office three times. Mr. Dorsey was down at headquarters 
with me I think about four times. As to whether it took Mr. Dorsey about 
seven times to get my testimony straight, it didn't take him that long to 
get it straight, it took that long for me. As to why I didn't tell it all, I 
didn't want to tell it all. I was intending to hold back some. I didn't want 
to tell it all right at one time. I just told a little and kept back a little. 
Yes, and Mr. Dorsey went down seven times while I was telling some and 
holding back some. They didn't ask me to take back any stories. No, it 
didn't take Mr. Dorsey seven times to tell the story. Yes, I said I added 
to it every time he went down. But he wouldn't came back and try to do 
anything with it. I didn't tell the officers that I went to a moving pic- 
ture show after I left the factory. I said I looked at the pictures from the 
outside. I told them I went on Peters Street and looked at the pictures 
from the outside. I stayed there about ten or fifteen minutes. I drank 
two glasses of beer. I don't know whether it was in the first, second or 
third statement that I told about watching for Mr. Frank. Two of the 
detectives were there. Yes, I locked the front door that Saturday of the 
murder. I don't know what time. It was somewhere after dinner. I 
can't give you any estimate. It was later than 12 o'clock. It wasn't one 
o'clock, because it was four minutes to one after I went upstairs and came 
downstairs and unlocked the door. Yes, I heard the stamping before I 
locked the door, and I heard the scream before I heard the stamping. Af- 
ter he stamped for me I went and locked the door. I couldn't tell to save 
my life how long the door stayed locked. I was upstairs between the time 
I locked the door and the time I went down and unlocked it. I unlocked 
the door before I went upstairs. I locked the door when he stamped and 
I unlocked it when he whistled. As soon as he whistled I unlocked the 
door and went upstairs. Mr. Frank sent me back in the metal depart- 
ment. He wouldn't go back there with me. When he whistled that was 
the signal for me to unlock the door and the stamping was for me to un- 
lock the door. He showed me how to lock the door that day. He showed 
me how to lock the door on Thanksgiving Day too. I don't know how he 
came to show it to me again. I guess he thought I forgot it. When I went 
down to leave the door were unlocked, both doors were unlocked. The 
only thing I remember Mr. Frank telling me was not to let Mr. Darley 
see me around the door, that a young lady would be up there after awhile 
to chat, and he wanted me to watch for him. No, he didn't tell me what 



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he wanted me to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth Street for. Yes, I could 

[70] 

have come back to the factory just as well as going to meet him at Nelson 
and Forsyth Street if he had told me that. I don't know why he told me 
to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth. I don't remember telling the officers 
that I met him accidentally at Nelson and Forsyth Street. Mr. Frank 
sayed at Montag's about an hour. Mr. Frank went to Montag's between 
10 and 10:30 and stayed about an hour. I guess it was about a half an 
hour. Mr. Frank didn't say a thing about why he wanted me at the cor- 
ner of Nelson and Forsyth Street. Before we went to Montag's he said 
he didn't want me to say anything to Mr. Darley that there was going to 
be a young lady there after a while, and he told me that again after we 
came back from Montag's. Mr. Frank gave me the signal about stamp- 
ing and whistling on Thanksgiving Day and he repeated it again that 
day. I told yesterday how he done it, like I am telling now. I think I am 
telling the truth now. We had been hack from Montag's about five min- 
utes when the lady in the green dress went up. She stayed up there a 
good little while, ten or fifteen minutes. I didn't tell the officers the peg- 
legged negro went up first. I didn't tell them in the first statement. I 
may have told them in the next statement. The peg-legged negro didn't 
stay up stairs no time. Came back down with Mr. Holloway. Mr. Dar- 
ley came down five or ten minutes after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes, 
that was after he came back from Montag's. I have no idea what time it 
was. After Holloway came down, the lady with the green dress came 
down. She went on out and Mr. Quinn came in. He went up and came 
down before Monteen Stover came in and before Mary Phagan came in. 
Yes, I am certain of that. No one else came in after Mr. Quinn except 
Mary Phagan. Mr. Quinn, Monteen Stover and Mary Phagan went in 
almost the same time. They went and came out almost together. Quinn 
first, Mary Phagan next and Monteen Stover next. Mr. Quinn had al- 
ready come out of the factory when Mary Phagan went up. I didn't see 
Mrs. Barrett, or Miss Corinthia Hall or Miss Hattie Hall or Alonzo Mann, 
or Emma Clarke. I didn't see none of them. I never saw Mrs. White go 
in there at all that day. I was sitting on the box all the time. I got up 
twice to make water. I made water against the elevator door, right in 
front of the elevator shaft. Miss Stover had done gone then, and Mr. 
Quinn also. I went to sleep after Miss Monteen Stover came down. Don't 
know how long I was asleep, maybe ten or fifteen minutes. I heard the 
scream before I went to sleep, before Monteen Stover ever went in there. 
Mr. Quinn had already gone. I told the officers I didn't see Mary Phagan 
go up at all. I didn't tell them I heard any scream. I don't know when 
I first told that story. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell. That was 
after I got out of jail. I said I heard the scream before I went to sleep, 
which I did. Monteen Stover came up and went down before I went to 
sleep. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell about somebody running 
back on tiptoes. I don't know when I told them. He woke me up stamp- 
inz, then I locked the door, and went to the box and kicked on the side of 
the elevator door. It was about ten or fifteen minutes after he stamped 



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'hat I heard him whistle. When he whistled I unlocked the door. I don't 

[71] 

know when I first told about Mr. Frank standing at the top of the stairs, 
trembling and nervous. I told Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes and Campbell. I 
don't know why I didn't tell it the day I told them I was going to tell the 
whole truth. I didn't mean to keep back anything then. That day I told 
them everything I remembered. When I got to the top of the stairs, Mr. 
Frank had that cord in his hands. I don't remember when I first told 
about that. U I didn't tell it that day when I said I was telling the whole 
truth, I just didn't remember it. When I told Black and Scott that I was 
telling the whole truth I didn't say anything about Mr. Frank having hit 
the little girl. I thought I had told them that. I have told that to some 
of the officers. I remember now that I told them that. He told me to get 
her out of there some way or other. He didn't say she was dead. I didn't 
lnow she was dead. I went back there and found the cord around her 
neck. When I looked at the clock it was four minutes to one. That was 
after I went and seen the girl was dead, and he told me to bring her up 
there. I was standing at the steps. I could see the clock from there. 
Then I went back and got a piece of striped bed tick, something like your 
shirt there, had whitish looking stripes on it. I taken the cloth and spread 
it down and rolled the little girl in the cloth and tied it up. When I laid 
her down in the cloth, I tied the cloth around her. I did my best. Her 
feet were hanging out of the cloth, also her head. If I didn't tell Black 
and Scott anything about the hat and the slippers and the ribbon, they 
must not have asked me. I know I took the things and pitched them in 
front of the boiler. The elevator don't hit hard when it hits the ground. 
The wheels at the top don't make any noise. The motor makes a little 
noise, something like a June bug. The elevator hits the dirt at the bot- 
tom, but it don't make any noise. I left the factory about 1:30. The rea- 
son why I didn't tell Scott and Black before I wrote four notes instead of 
two, they dian't ask me how many I wrote. Another reason why is, be- 
cause Mr. Frank taken that and folded it up like he wasn't going to use 
it. I wrote three notes on white and one on green paper. The green one 
is the one he folded up like he wasn't going to use it. I don't know how 
long it took me to write those notes. I took me somewhere about two 
minutes and a half, I reckon. The reason I didn't tell Scott and Black 
about burning the body, because someone had done taken them off the 
case. Mr. Scott told me. The first time I told that was to Mr. Starnes 
and Mr. Campbell after I came back from jail. I don't remember telling 
the officers that Mr. Frank told me he was going to send those notes to 
his folks up North. If they have got it down there I must have said it. 
He told me he was going to write to his mother and tell her that I was a 
good negro. The reason I didn't take the parasol down with the shoes, 
it was too far back for me to see it. I got my hair cut last week. My law- 
yer sent the barber. They gave me a bath and bought me clean clothes. 
My wife gave me my shirt. I didn't read any newspapers on Monday 
about this crime. It don't do me no good because I can't make any out. 
I didn't try to read any that day. I washed that shirt on Thursday, May 



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I.t, in the metal room about half past one or two. As to how that dung 

[72] 

came to be in the elevator shaft, when Mr. Frank had explained to me 
where he wanted to meet me and just as I started out of the place that 
negro drayman came in there with a sack of hay and I gave him a drink 
of whiskey that I bought at Earley's saloon on Peters Street that morn- 
ing, and he suggested that I go down in the basement and do it, there's a 
light down there, and I went down the ladder and stopped right by the 
side of the elevator, in front of the elevator, somewhere about the edges 
of it. No, I didn't see the two white men go up and talk to Mr. Frank in 
his office that day. No, I didn't see a man by the name of Mincey at the 
corner of Carter and Electric Avenue that day. I didn't tell him that I 
killed a girl that day. I didn't say I killed one to-day and I didn't want 
to kill another. I didn't tell Harlee Branch that Mary Phagan was mur- 
dered in the toilet room on the second floor, or that the body was stiff 
when I got back there, or that it took at least thirty minutes to get the 
body down stairs and write the notes. I don't remember telling Miss 
Carson on May 1st, that Mr. Frank was innocent. I didn't have any con- 
versation with Miss Mary Pirk on April 28th and she didn't say that I 
committed the crime and I didn't shoot out of the room immediately af- 
ter she said that I didn't tell Miss Carson on Monday that I was drunk all 
day Saturday. I didn't see her at all on Monday. I didn't tell Mr. Her- 
bert Schiff on Monday that I was afraid to go on the street, that I would 
give a million dollars if I was a white man. I said if I was a white man I 
would go on out. I didn't say nothing about no million dollars because I 
don't know what it takes to make a million. I didn't ask Miss Small on 
Monday what the extra had in it and I didn't say Mr. Frank is just as in- 
nocent as you are. I didn't ask Miss Fuss on Wednesday for an extra, I 
didn't tell her that I thought Mr. Frank was as innocent as the angels in 
heaven. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I never was in jail until April 26th. I have been down at police head- 
quarters several times. First time I was arrested was for throwing 
rocks. I was a small boy then. I was arrested another time for fighting 
black boys, then I was arrested about drinking and disorderly, and the 
last time I was arrested was about fighting again. I never have fought 
with a white man or white woman. Police officers took me down to jail 
and to door where Mr. Frank was. I never did see Mr. Frank in jail. The 
last time I saw Mr. Frank was in the station house before I had talked. 
He looked at me and smiled and bowed his head. While I was writing 
the notes, Mr. Frank took the pencil out of my hand and told me to rub 
out that "a" I had down there on the word "negro." I saw Mary Pha- 
gan's pocketbook, or mesh bag, in Mr. Frank's office after he got back 
from the basement. It was lying on his desk. He taken it and put it in 
the safe. When I went back to see about the girl, it wouldn't have taken 
more than about a minute to go down and lock and unlock the door. He 
had time enough to do it. Mr. Scott talked to me about three hours and 
a half one Thursday. Mr. Frank told me he would send me away from 



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[73] 
74 

here if they caught me. He would get me out on bond and send me away. 
I never saw Mincey before seeing him at the station house in Mr. Lan- 
ford's office. I had orders from Mr. Frank to write down how many 
boxes we needed and give it to him. I didn't tell Mr. Black or Mr. Scott 
about the mesh bag because they didn't ask me. I disremember when I 
first told about it. I think it was after I was in jail. I told Mr. Dorsey 
about it after I came out of jail. Mr. Frank knew for a whole year that 
I could write. I used to write for him the word "Luxury," "George 
Washington," "Magnolia," "Uncle Remus," "Thomas Jefferson," 
that's the name of pencils. I spell " I Uncle Remus" " 0-n-e Rines. " I 
spell "Luxury" I ' L-u-s-t-r-i-s." I spell " I Thomas Jefferson" " T-o-m 
Je-f-f- or J-e-i-s-s." I spell "George Washington" "J-o-e W-i-s-h- 
t-o-n." After Mr. Frank found out what I meant he understood it. I 
spell "ox" "o-x." Yes I wrote him orders to take money out of my 
wages. The pocketbook was a wire looking whitish looking pocketbook, 
had a chain to it. You could take it and fold it up and hold it in one hand. 
When I wrote the word "Luxury" and "Thomas Jefferson," I didn't 
have anything at all to copy from. I was writing it down for Mr. Frank. 
MRS. J. A. WHJTE, recalled for the State. 

I have seen this man before at police headquarters (indicating Con- 
ley) about a month after the murder. At that time I did not identify him 
as being the man I saw sitting on the box. The man sitting on the box 
was about the same size as Jim Conley. I couldn't state it was Jim Con- 
ley. He was sitting in a dark place, and he looked black to me. He had 
on dark clothes. I don't know whether he was bareheaded or not. I told 
Bass Rosser about this on May 7th. That was the first time I told of it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I told the detective about this as soon as I saw one. I never kept it 
a secret from anybody. I spoke to Mr. Wade Campbell about seeing the 
darkey. I didn't tell him that I saw the negro as I went up into the fac- 
tory about 12 o'clock. I didn't tell him that, when I came down the steps 
the last time, I didn't see anybody. 
C. W. MANGUM, sworn for the State. 

I had a conversation with Mr. Frank at the jail about seeing Conley 
and confronting him. Conley was on the fourth floor. Chief Beavers, 
Chief Lanford and Scott came down to see Mr. Frank with Conley and 
asked me if they could see him. I went to Frank and told him the men 
were there with Conley and wanted to talk with him if he wanted to see 
them. He said, "No, my attorney is not here and I have nobody to de- 
fend me." He said his lawyer was not there; that no one was there to 
listen at what might be said. 

[74] 

N. V. DARLEY, recalled for cross-examination. 

On the ground floor the door to the Clark Woodenware Company 

was nailed up immediately after that company left there. We found it 



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broken open after the murder and we nailed it up again. It was two or 
three days after the murder. Sitting at Mr. Frank's desk, the most that 
one can see is about half of clock No. 2, which is on the left of clock No. 
1. If the safe door was open in the outer office, you have no view into 
Mr. Frank's office from the outside. You might tiptoe and look over the 
door. A man of my height could just tiptoe and see over it. The pack- 
ing room next to Mr. Frank's office works from 11 to 17 ladies and men. 
Passing by elevator shaft as you go in building on ground floor, you come 
to a door to Clark Woodenware Company's place, which was nailed up 
immediately after that company left there. We found it broken open af- 
ter the murder. I don't know what day, it must have been two or three 
days after, and we nailed it up again. (Witness identifies various por- 
tions of factory from the factory model-Defendant's Exhibit 4). There 
is no lounge, sofa, cot or bed in the whole factory. I found two boxes 
down in the basement in Clark Woodenware side of old dirty, rotten 
stuff, too dirty and rotten for a human being to rest upon. It's boggy in 
there. They had on top of them some dirty, filthy, nasty crocus sacks. 
There is no lounge, bed, sofa or anything of the sort in the metal room. 
I have never seen a chair in there. I have never seen any blood under 
the machine that Barrett claims he found hair on. I never saw any blood 
on the place the negro claims the little girl's body was lying. You can 
get into the metal room either from the front or the back if the back door 
is open. You can lock the back door from the inside. There is a cross 
bar across the door. The rule was to keep it locked, but a great many 
times I found it unlocked. It was very dark around the elevator on the 
first floor on April 26th. It was a cloudy day and darker than usual be- 
cause the front doors were closed. It's too dark to stand on the outside 
and see through the elevator. I left the factory with Mr. Frank on his 
way to Montag Brothers. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never 
saw Mr. Frank talk to him or speak to him or come into contact with him 
in any way that day. I have never goosed or pinched Jim Conley or jol- 
lied with him. I kicked him when I caught him loafing, and sometimes I 
would take a piece of board to him and he would laugh every time I did 
it. I have never seen Mr. Frank goose or pinch him or play with him or 
jolly him. No, I never knew Daisy Hopkins. I have never seen Dalton 
until this morning. From June, 1912, until January, 1913, 1 left the fac- 
tory at twelve o'clock on Saturdays, and usually came back between five 
and six. I did that most every Saturday during the two years that I 
have been there. I may have missed sometimes, but not many. Only on 
one occasion do I recall that Mr. Frank said he would not be there on 
Saturday afternoon. I would visit the factory every Saturday after- 
noon between five and six to find out how the financial was for the week. 
I found Mr. Frank in his office on every occasion except the one I have 

[75] 

mentioned above. Mr. Schiff would help him on the financial. A few 
Saturdays I have gone there and Mr. Schiff was not there. He may have 
been on his vacation. I hire and discharge all the help. I came in con- 
tact with the help ninety per cent, more than Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank has 



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nothing to do with employing or discharging them. On Saturday, Hol- 
loway is supposed to leave the factory at four o'clock and the night 
watchman comes on. We had no negro night watchman there last Sep- 
tember as stated by Mr. Dalton. Our night watchman was Mr. Ken- 
dricks, a white man. The first time we ever hired a negro night watch- 
man was three weeks before the murder. As to who else stayed at the 
factory on Saturday afternoons, usually the office boy, sometimes the 
stenographer, Walter Pride, who cleans up the third floor. I have never 
known any other time but Saturday that the financial sheet was worked 
on, except possibly a holiday. I saw Conley on Monday. He looked to 
be excited and when I spoke to him he failed to look up as he usually 
does. I went around the factory that morning and looked at everybody 
to see if I could pick out a man that looked suspicious, and Jim Conley 
was the man I thought looked fhost suspicious. The latter part of last 
year I issued orders that the sweepers must stop cleaning up by twelve 
o'clock and if they hadn't cleaned up by that time they would have to 
knock off and leave the factory. If they stayed there after twelve o'clock 
I didn't know anything about it. Harry Denham usually stayed in the 
factory every other Saturday afternoon to clean the motor and oil the 
machinery and he selected some one to stay with him. He would do this 
about twice a month. The girls in the packing department did quite 
some overtime work on Saturday afternoon. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I have made no contribution toward the fund to defend Frank. I 
don't know anything about Daisy Hopkins' general character. I don't 
know who nailed up the door on the Clark Woodenware side. Lots of 
people have been there all over the factory. If a body had been shot 
down the chute, behind those boxes, it would have been hidden more than 
where it was found. The boxes around the chute are piled nearly to the 
top. I never noticed any difference in the boxes Sunday from what I left 
them there Saturday. No, I don't know anything about Conley being 
there Saturday afternoons and watching. He wasn't there by my in- 
structions. There is a good deal of water on the floor of the metal room. 
On payday in order to keep the people from coming down the back, the 
instructions are always to close the back door to the metal room. There 
is no special reason for the paint to go out of the polishing room, but it is 
out in other places. It is carelessly done. You can see haskoline scat- 
tered around. The floor in metal room where body is supposed to have 
been found has a rise of several inches in it, something like an edge. As 
to whether a man standing up and looking over the safe door hasn't got 
a vision going beyond the clock so that he could see everybody that reg- 

[76] 

istered, he couldn't see it. I tried it. I don't know whether either the 

clock or the desk has been moved before I went to see. My recollection 

is that the table is nailed to the wall and the clock screwed to the table. 

You can tear the whole thing up and move it. The desk could not be 

moved without my knowing it. I didn't have the clock fixed after April 

25th. 



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RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

On Friday last I made an experiment by sitting at Frank's desk and 
leaned over as far as I could see through the outer door towards the clock. 
I could see half of the circle on clock No. 2. I could not see any of the 
other clock at all. The clock and desk could not have been moved with- 
out my instructions. The paint is scattered all round. It gets all over 
the place and we can't prevent it. We never have washed the metal 
room floor since I have been there. We never found any water or blood 
where it was said the girl's body was found in the metal department. 
The view I got from front door on April 26th into area around elevator 
shaft was blocked by boxes. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I communicated immediately with the police when we found the 
blood back there. I think Harry Scott was the first man I reported Con- 
ley's nervousness to. It was on Monday, April 28th. 
E. F. HOLLO WAY, recalled for cross-examination. 
I am the day watchman and time keeper. I look after the register to 
see that everybody registers. No, it was not a habit of Conley to regis- 
ter or not as he pleased and to get his pay anyhow. If he didn't register 
I always got after him. I applied the same rule to him as I did to any- 
body else. I never saw Mr. Frank goose, pinch or joke with Conley. I 
never saw him touch him in any way, unless it was when he would go in 
the office to borrow money, I would see him hand him a quarter, or some- 
thing. He surely was a good hand at borrowing, but Mr. Frank would 
never let him have a nickel but what he owed him. Up till twelve months 
ago the sweepers stayed at the factory until about 2:30, but then they 
made a rule that any sweeping that wasn't done by noon on Saturday 
would have to go over until Monday and since that time no negroes have 
been there since 12 o'clock. We never had any negro nightwatchman in 
July, August, September, or any time last fall. We never had a negro 
night watchman until we hired Lee, which was about three weeks before 
the murder. Since June of last year, on Saturday afternoons, I always 
stayed around the factory and looked after seeing that nobody came in 
or out, unless they had business. I never have seen anybody goose Con- 
ley. Sometimes I would kick him to make him go on to his work. The 
door that leads to the Clark Woodenware place never was locked. It was 
nailed up when the Clark Woodenware moved out of there. I nailed it 

[77] 

up myself. It was open on the Monday after the murder. It led back to 
a chute in the rear, and to two waterclosets on the right. Nobody occu- 
pies that now. I was at the factory every Saturday since last June ex- 
cepting legal holidays when the factory was shut down. I did not miss 
a single Saturday in July, August, September, October, November, De- 
cember, and January, excepting legal holidays. On Thanksgiving Day 
I stayed there until 12 or 1 o'clock. I have never missed a Saturday 
since I have been working at the factory. I would be relieved on Satur- 
days at 4:30 p. m. I would go all over the building trying to see that 
everything is all right. That was my business. I have never known Mr. 



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Frank to have any woman on Saturdays excepting his wife. She came 
there on Saturdays and went home with him, about once a month. Mr. 
Schiff helped Mr. Frank on his books on Saturdays. Conley never did 
watch the door down stairs. If he did, it must have been after 4:30 p. m. 
I never did see him giving signals to Mr. Frank and Frank giving him 
signals from upstairs. I was obliged to have seen them if he had watched 
the door. I sat mainly in the front of the building to see that nobody came 
in building. I do not recall any Saturday afternoon that Frank and Schiff 
missed except when Schiff was off on his vacation. I have never seen any 
of them bring any women in there or take any out. I have never been 
sick or missed a single Saturday since last year. I would leave about 
4:30 Saturday afternoon. I have never seen Dalton in the factory at all. 
I wouldn't have let a fellow like that in the building unless I knew what 
his business was. There was nobody practicing any immoralities in the 
building. If they did I would know it. I would have put them out 
quickly. Daisy Hopkins quit sometime in May or June last spring. She 
has never been there since she quit. Mr. Darley left the factory be- 
tween 9 and 10 o'clock on April 26th. He was not there after 1 1 o'clock 
at all. If he was, he was there after 1 1 :45, the time I left there. I have 
never seen the front doors locked on Saturday. I was at the factory un- 
til noon on Thanksgiving Day. I saw no girls with white shoes and stock- 
ings there that day. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never saw any 
woman at the factory that day. I sure would have seen Conley had he 
been watching the door that day. I have seen Mr. Frank at the factory 
every Saturday afternoon after he comes back from lunch. I would pass 
in and out of his office three or four times in the afternoon. I have never 
seen a glass of beer as long as I have been there. I have never seen any 
women up there. He would be working on his books. Mr. Schiff would 
be helping him. The stenographer and shipping clerk would sometimes 
be up there. People would be liable to drop in there on business and I 
would send them up to Mr. Frank's office. I always kept the door on 
Saturdays. I never turned it over to Conley or anybody else. I have let 
Mrs. Frank in and would tell her to go up in the office and have a seat. 
This man Wilson worked on Saturday afternoon most all the time. Oiled 
up the motor and cleaned it while the factory was closed. Pride, Harry 
Denham, Charlie Lee, and Fast usually worked there on Saturday oiling 
the machinery after they shut down and different things. They were not 

[78] 

shut off by any doors from going anywhere they wanted in the factory. 
They were liable to come down and around any time. I have never seen 
the doors either to the outer or inner office of Mr. Frank locked. They 
have got glass fronts in them that you can see through, and it would not 
have done any good to have shut them. The windows in Mr. Frank's 
office looked right out on Forsyth Street. The shades to them are torn 
up so they don't amount to much. In the morning they will pull them 
dow-n to keep the sun out. When they are up you can see pcross the 
street. Salesmen frequently visited Frank on Saturday afternoons 
when they came in from their runs without any announcement. I have 



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never known Mr. Frank to refuse to see any of them. It is very dark 
about the elevator shaft on the ground floor. The shaft is about ten or 
twelve feet from the steps. If a girl was coming down the steps and a 
man was in that dark place it would be a very easy job for him to throw 
her down the shaft. He could grab her before she ever saw him because 
she would be looking toward the door. The members of the firm of Mon- 
tag Brothers frequently visited the factory on Saturday afternoons. I 
remember seeing Drayman McCrary on April 26th. He came around to 
see if there was any hauling. I don't remember the time. I never saw 
Conley on April 26th. If he was there he was skulking around and hid- 
ing. I never saw McCrary talking to him that day. On Monday morn- 
ing I saw Conley, instead of being upstairs where he ought to be sweep- 
ing, he was down in the shipping room watching the detectives, officers 
and reporters. I caught him washing his shirt. Looked like he tried to 
hide it from me. I picked it up and looked at it carefully and it looked 
like he didn't want me to look at it at all. The day before that he went 
out with a pair of overalls corresponding to this blue shirt that he has, 
and he said he wanted to carry them to a negro at Block's candy factory 
and he had not had time to have gone to the candy factory before he came 
back and said that they were taking stock over there and would not let 
him in. The overalls had been washed and dried and I could not tell if 
there is anything on them or not. I don't know whether he can write or 
not. At your request to-day I walked from the middle of the car track at 
the corner of Broad and Hunter to the pencil factory and then upstairs 
in Mr. Frank's office. I walked just in an ordinary way like I thought a 
lady would walk. It took me two and a half minutes. I walked from the 
corner of Marietta Street and Forsyth Street to the pencil factory. It 
took me six minutes. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I didn't have any conversation with Kendrick, the night watchman, 
since this murder was committed as to whether or not Frank ever called 
him after he left the factory that night. No, I did not try to get Kendrick 
to swear that. No, I didn't tell Whitfield the day before they turned up 
that big club" Be sure to come back to-morrow, you will be certain to find 
something." So far as I know the general character of Daisy Hopkins 

[79] 

is good. I don't remember telling you the contrary. I don't deny sign- 
ing that affidavit (Exhibit "I," State). I don't remember telling you in 
this paper (Exhibit "I," State), "She is anything but a nice girl. You 
can't depend on what she says." Yes, I said it in the affidavit I gave it 
was 10:45 when Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley left. Mr. Frank got back 
about 1 1 o'clock. That was all guess work about the time they left. I 
never said anything about getting the reward for Jim Conley. I told 
some of the detectives several days after they came down after the negro 
if this negro is convicted he is my negro. I knew about the reward being 
offered. If I told you that I sometimes left the factory at three o'clock I 
meant four o'clock. Jim Conley worked regularly at the factory except 
when he was in the stockade thirty days. Conley registered every morn- 



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ing, but a lots of times he would not register at dinner and sometimes at 
night. I nailed up the door that leads into the Clark Woodenware place 
on Monday because we never let that door stand open. Mr. Darley told 
me to do it. I know it was not open on Saturday. It was nailed up Sat- 
urday noon when I left there and it was open Monday when I got there. 
The chutes back there were nailed up. The one next to the rear end of 
the building I know was nailed up to keep the Clarke Woodenware peo- 
ple from coming up through there. Boxes were piled up back in there. 
That stairway back there has been nailed up for some time. Hasn't been 
used since Christmas. If the negro went out and bought beer I didn't 
know it. I never saw him. I don't recollect whether the drayman was 
up there April 26th to get his pay or not. There was so much excitement 
in the factory on Monday that we shut down about 9:30. Nobody stayed 
at their work. Jim Conley quit work like everybody else and went out. 
As to one thing that Conley did that the others didn't do I haven't got 
any. The shirt he was washing was the same shirt he had been wearing 
all day. I say that he was trying to hide the shirt because he was trying 
to push it over behind the pipe where you couldn't see it. He had the 
shirt on when he was arrested. He was not trying to hide it then. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was subpoenaed to Mr. Dorsey's office by regular court subpoenae. 
I thought I had to go there. There were three or four men when I got 
there. 

GEORGE EPPS, re-called for cross-examination. 
I was present on Sunday after the murder when a gentleman came 
out to the house and talked to me and my sister about when was the last 
time we had seen Mary Phagan. He didn't ask me, he asked my sister. 
I wasn't there. I was in the house. I didn't hear him ask my sister that. 
HARRY SCOTT, re-called for State. 

It took Jim Conley two or three minutes to write out the notes that 
I dictated to him. 

[80] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a darkey at the 
pencil factory. I gave that information to the police department. Mr. 
Frank gave me the information when I first talked to him. I never in- 
quired of Frank or any of the pencil factory people if Conley could write. 
Sunday, May 18th, I was present when Conley made his statement. May 
18th. I wrote it out myself. (Defendant's Exhibit 36). He made no 
further statement on that day. He stated that he did not go to the pen- 
cil factory at all that day. At that time I knew he could write. He told 
me everything that was in that statement. The information that Conley 
could write came from the pencil factory on May 1 8th. On May 1 8th I 
dictated to Conley these words: "That long tall black negro did by him- 
self." I dictated each word singly and I should judge it took him more 
than six or seven minutes to write it. He writes quite slowly. When he 
was brought before Mrs. White to see if she could identify him he was 
chewing his lips and twirling a cigarette in his fingers. He didn't seem to 



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know how to hold on to it. He could not keep feet still. He positively de- 
nied on May 18th that he had anything to do with the murder of Mary 
Phagan and that he was at the factory at all. We talked very strongly 
to him and tried to make him give a confession. We used a little profan- 
ity and cussed him. He made that statement after he knew that I knew 
he could write. We had him for about two or three hours that day. He 
made another statement on May 24th which was put in writing. (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 37). He was carried to Mr. Dorsey's office that day 
and went over the statement with Mr. Dorsey. He still denied that he 
had seen the little girl the day of the murder. He swore to all that the 
statement contains. That statement was a voluntary statement from 
him. He sent for Mr. Black and we went there together. We questioned 
him again very closely for about three hours on May 25th. He repeated 
the story that he told in his statement of May 24th. We saw him again 
on May 27th in Chief Lanford's office. Talked to him about five or six 
hours. We tried to impress him with the fact that Frank would not have 
written those notes on Friday. That that was not a reasonable story. 
That showed premeditation and that would not do. We pointed out to 
him why the first statement would not fit. We told him we wanted an- 
other statement. He declined to make another statement. He said he 
had told the truth. On May 28th Chief Lanford and I grilled him for 
five or six hours again, endeavoring to make clear several points which 
were far-fetched in his statement. We pointed out to him that his state- 
ment would not do and would not fit. He then made us another long 
statement on May 28th (Defendant's Exhibit 38), having been told that 
his previous statement showed deliberation; that that could not be ac- 
cepted. He told us then all that appears in the statement of May 28th. 
He never told us anything about Mr. Frank making an engagement for 
him to stamp for him and for him to lock the door. He told us nothing 
about seeing Monteen Stover. He did not tell us about seeing Mary Pha- 

[81] 

gan. He said he did not see her. He didn't say he saw Lemmie Quinn. 
Conley was a rather dirty negro when I first saw him. He looked pretty 
good when he testified here. Frank was arrested Tuesday morning at 
about 1 1 :30; on May 29th we had another talk with him. Talked with 
him almost all day. Yes, we pointed out things in his story that were im- 
probable and told him he must do better than that. Anything in his story 
that looked to be out of place we told him wouldn't do. After he had 
made his last statement we didn't wish to make any further suggestion 
to him at that time. He then made his last statement on May 29th (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 39). He told us all that appears in that statement. 
We tried to get him to tell about the little mesh bag. We tried pretty 
strong. He always denied ever having seen it. He never said that he 
saw it in Frank's office, or that Frank put it in his safe. We asked him 
about the parasol. He didn't tell us anything about it. He didn't tell 
us anything about Frank stumbling as he got on the street floor at the 
elevator and hit him. Since making this statement on May 29th I have 
not communicated with Conley and have not seen him. He never told us 



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that he came from his home straight to the factory. He denied knowing 
anything about the fecal matter down in the basement in the elevator 
shaft. He never said he went down there himself between the time he 
first came to the factory and went to Montag's. He never said he thought 
the name of the little girl was Mary Perkins. He never said anything at 
all about Mary Perkins. We pressed him that day as to whether he saw 
Mary Phagan or not. He finally told us that he saw her dead body. He 
never did tell us that he heard a lady scream though we asked him about 
it. He said he did not hear anybody scream while he was sitting on the 
box. He said he didn't hear anything at all that day. He never said any 
thing about Mr. Frank having hit her, and having hit her too hard. He 
never said anything about somebody running on tiptoes from the metal 
department and back again. He said he did not hear any stamping. He 
did not tell us anything about Mr. Frank telling him how to lock the door. 
He did not tell us anything about Frank having a cord in his hand at the 
top of the steps or that Frank looked funny about his eyes or that his face 
was red. He didn't tell us that he went back there and found the little 
girl with a rope around her neck and a piece of underclothing or that he 
went back to Mr. Frank and told him the girl was dead, or that he wrap- 
ped her in a piece of cloth. He said it was a crocus sack. He did not say 
anything about Mr. Frank saying "Sh-sh." He didn't say that he put 
the sack on his shoulder and that body dangled round about his legs. He 
said he never saw the ribbon; didn't know where it was. We asked him 
whether there was any thought of burning the body and he said not. He 
didn't know anything about that. He never said anything about his 
promising to come back and burn the body or that he said to Mr. Frank 
"You are a white man and done it, and I am not going down there and 
burn it myself;" or that Mr. Frank had arranged to give his bond and 
send him away; or that Frank said he would have a place to get in by 
when he came back to burn the body, or said he owed a Jew ten cents and 

[82] 

paid it. He did not tell us of any conversation he had with Mr. Frank on 
Tuesday after the murder in which Mr. Frank said "If you had come 
back on Saturday and done what I told you there wouldn't have been 
any trouble." As to the scene between Conley and me when I undertook 
to convince him that I knew he could write on Sunday, May 18th, I called 
him up at Chief Lanford's office, gave him a paper and pencil and told 
him that we understood he said he couldn't write and now we knew he 
could write and we wanted him to write what we told him. He sat there 
and looked at us while we were talking and I told him to write as I dic- 
tated and he picked up the pencil and wrote immediately. We convinced 
him that we knew he could write and then he wrote. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I got information as to Conley writing through my operations while 
I was out of town. McWorth told me when I returned. I got no infor- 
mation personally about Conley being able to write from the pencil com- 
pany people. Personally I did not get information as to Conley's being 
able to write from pencil company. I got it from outside sources, wholly 



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disconnected with the pencil company. As to whom I first communicated 
anything about Mrs. White's statement about seeing a negro down there, 
my impression is I told it in my many conversations with Black, and 
Chief Lanford and Bass Rosser. Don't know the day. It was shortly 
after April 28th. After Conley made his last statement Chief Beavers, 
Lanford and I went to the jail with Conley and saw the sheriff and he 
went to Frank's cell. The last time I saw Frank was Saturday, May 3rd. 
As to whether Mr. Frank refused to see me, only through Sheriff Man- 
gum, as to the number of matters I told Conley didn't fit the first time 
and those I told him didn't fit the last time, I could not name those, that 
would almost be impossible unless I had the statement clear in my head. 
I never suggested what to put in or what to substitute or what to change. 
They came from Conley himself. 
THE STATE RESTS. 
EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT. 
W. W. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work for the Georgia Railway & Electric Co. as a motorman. On 
the 26th day of April I was running on English Avenue. Mary Phagan 
got on my car at Lindsey Street at 1 1 :50. Our route was from Bellwood 
to English Avenue, down English Avenue to Kennedy, down Kennedy to 
Gray, Gray to Jones Avenue, Jones Avenue to Marietta, Marietta to 
Broad, and out Broad Street. From Lindsey Street to Broad Street is 
about a mile and a half or two miles. We make frequent stops. We were 
scheduled to arrive at Marietta and Broad at 12:071/2. We were on 
s— hedule. We stayed on time all day. Our car turned up Broad St. Mary 

[83] 

Pliagan got off at Hunter and Broad. It takes generally from two and a 
half to three minutes to go from Broad and Marietta to Broad and Hun- 
ter. That is a very congested street and you must go slow. I was re- 
lieved at Broad and Marietta by another motorman, but sat down in-the 
same car one seat behind Mary Phagan. Another little girl was sitting 
in the seat with her. We got to Broad and Hunter about 12:10. Mary 
and the other little girl both got off and walked to the sidewalk and they 
wheeled like they were going to turn around on Hunter Street, both of 
them together. The pencil factory is about a block and a half from where 
they got off at Hunter and Broad. Nobody got on with Mary at Lindsey 
Street. There wasn't any little boy with her. The first time I noticed 
the little girl sitting with Mary was when we left Broad and Marietta 
Streets and I went back into the car and saw this little girl sitting with 
her. I know the little Epps boy. I have seen him riding on my car. He 
did not get on the car with her at Lindsey Street. I saw Mary's body at 
the undertaker's. It was the same girl that got on my car. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I did not tell one of the detectives that we might have been running 
three or four minutes ahead of schedule that day. I remember that Mary 
did not get off the car at Broad and Marietta because there was a street 
car conductor sitting behind me, an ex-conductor and he had a badge on 
his coat and I looked at it and it had a little girl's picture and I reached 



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over to where Mary was and said, "Little girl, here is your picture, " and 
she said, "No, it is not." I don't know who the other little girl was sit- 
ting with her. The other little girl was dressed something like Mary. I 
didn't pay much attention to their dresses, but they looked sort of alike. 
Mary's dress wasn't black. It was light colored. I know Epps since this 
case came up. I could identify him. I never paid much attention to her 
hat. It was light colored I reckon but I am not sure. It just seemed that 
way. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I identified Mary's body Sunday afternoon after the murder at the 
undertaker's. There was no doubt about her being the same girl. I 
knew her well by sight. She rode on my car lots. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 
I can't tell you whether that is the hat or not she wore. 
W. T. HOLLIS, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am a street car conductor. On the 26th of April I was on the Eng- 
lish Avenue line. We ran on schedule that day. Mary Phagan got on at 
Lindsey Street at about 1 1 :50. She is the same girl I identified at the 

[84] 

undertaker's. She had been on my car frequently and I knew her well. 
No one else got on with her at Lindsey Street. Epps did not get on with 
her. I took up her fare on English Avenue, several blocks from where 
she got on. And no one was sitting with her then. I do not recollect Epps 
getting on the car at all that morning. Don't know whether anybody 
else afterwards sat with Mary or not. We got to Broad and Marietta 
seven and a half minutes after twelve, schedule time. I was relieved at 
Forsyth and Marietta Streets, where I got off. Mary was still on the car 
when I got off. It takes two and a half minutes to run from Broad and 
Marietta to Broad and Hunter. I have timed the car again and again 
since then. I identified the little girl at the undertaker's Sunday after- 
noon. Didn't notice the color of her clothes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mary rode with us two or three times a week. So did Epps. I don't 
know where he got off or where he got on. We are not supposed to come 
in ahead of time. We never come in two or three minutes ahead of time. 
We are a little late sometimes. I never noticed anybody sitting with 
Mary. She was sitting by herself when I got her fare. There wasn't 
but two or three passengers on the car and I know there wasn't anybody 
sitting with her. If Epps was on the car I don't recollect it. I don't re- 
call the name of any other passengers except Mary Phagan. As to what 
attracted my attention to Mary getting on the front end of the car, as a 
general rule when she would catch our car Mr. Matthews would say to 
her "You are late to-day," and sometimes she would come in and remark 
that she was mad; that she was late to-day and when she came that morn- 
ing Mr. Matthews said to her, "Are you mad to-day?" and she said, 
"Yes, I am late." And sort of laughed and came on in the car and sat 
down. She usually caught our car when she came in the morning, the 
one due in town at 7:07. I didn't know Mary's name, I just recognized 



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Mary's face as the little girl who traveled with us. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I heard of the murder the next day. Newspaper reporters asked us 
to go down and identify the girl. There was no doubt about her being 
the little girl who was on our car. Oliver Street is the next street to 
Lindsey. I did not see Epps get on at Oliver Street. It is against the 
rule of the company to get to the city ahead of time. 
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION. 

It is not against the rules to get in behind time. Sometimes we 
might get there a few minutes ahead of time, but hardly ever. We al- 
ways look at our watches at the main destination, just at Broad and Ma- 
rietta. We are supposed to do that. 

[85] 

HERBERT G. SCHIFF, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am assistant superintendent of the National Pencil Co.; I have 
been with the company about five years. Part of my duties was to get 
up data for the financial sheet. I occupied the same office as Mr. Frank. 
I took a trip on the road on the first Saturday in January. All of the 
company's money except the petty cash was kept over at Montag Bros.' 
office at the general manager's office, Mr. Sig Montag. All mail of the 
company is received at Montag Bros. The men in Mr. Montag's office 
made the deposit of money of the company. Mr. Frank and I only 
handled the petty cash ranging from $25.00 to $50.00. When we wanted 
money for the pay roll, we would get a check from Mr. Sig Montag who 
signed for the company. Mr. Frank and I had no authority to sign 
checks. I would go to the bank and get the money and we would go to 
work at once filling the pay envelopes. We would always draw the exact 
amount of the pay roll. Our petty cash amounted to from $25 to $50. 
We kept that on hand for items like drayage, kerosene, soap, candles. 
The money for the cash would also come from Mr. Montag 's office. The 
salary of Mr. Frank and myself were paid by check, on the last of the 
month, or the first of next month. Mr. Frank's salary was $150 a month 
and my own $80. Montag Bros.' office is about four blocks from the fac- 
tory. The company's bills were paid from Montag Bros.' office, where 
all the finances of the company were taken care of. We simply looked 
after the manufacturing end. The financial sheet which Mr. Frank and 
I worked on on Saturdays showed how our week terminates, whether at 
a profit or loss. We had to show what we manufactured, what we packed, 
the materials that were made to go on the pencils, covering lead, plugs, 
tips, boxes. We showed our shipments, what our average order jobs 
amounted to, what we purchased for and the price. Our factory week 
began on Friday night and went through Thursday night. In making up 
the financial sheet we would show it as ending on Thursday of every 
week. We couldn't make it up until Saturday afternoon because our re- 
ports very seldom came in before Friday noon and sometimes Saturday 
morning and also our pay roll which showed on the financial sheet. These 
reports and the pay roll were necessary to make up the financial sheet. 
We paid off at Saturday noon. It has been our fixed custom ever since 



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we have been in existence to make up the financial sheet on Saturday. I 
help Frank make out the financial sheet by getting up part of the data, 
getting up a sheet that we term the factory record, the number of pencils 
packed for the week, getting up the tip records; I get the reports from 
the different foremen and foreladies; I get the slat records from the slat 
mills, the number of slats delivered to manufacture pencils with, and 
give him the totals of the pay roll. With the exception of the last week 
in July and the first week in August I missed no time from the factory 
after June 1st, excepting my trip on the road during January. With 
that exception I have not missed a single Saturday after the first of June, 
1912. I usually leave the factory at 12:30 and return at 2 to 2:15. Frank 

[86] 

would leave a little after one and return about three. I do not recall a 
single Saturday that Frank returned earlier than I did. As soon as 
Frank would get back he would get to work on his part of the data and 
he would continue to finish the sheet. We both worked together. The 
street doors were always open. Office boy would be in the outer office. 
Frequently we were interrupted by salesmen calling on us Saturday af- 
ternoon. The stenographers came back very seldom on Saturday after- 
noon. We were liable to be interrupted at any time on Saturday after- 
noon by people on business. As to who else stayed at the factory on Sat- 
urday afternoon, Harry Denham usually, Walter Pride, Holloway, who 
would stay until 4:30. Newt Lee was the first negro night watchman we 
ever had. Frank and I usually left the factory at half past five or a quar- 
ter to six on Saturdays, we usually left together. Very often Mrs. Frank 
would come up to the office on Saturday. I never saw Conley around the 
office on Saturday afternoon after two o'clock. We never had any wo- 
men up in the office. I never saw any there. There is not a bed, cot, 
lounge or sofa anywhere in the building. There is a dirty box with dirty 
crocus sacks on it in the basement on the Clarke Woodenware Company 
side. It is very filthy and dirty down there. I went on the road on the 
first Saturday in January, 1913. I got back to the factory that day about 
2:15, in the afternoon. There were ten or twelve fellows there. Conley 
was not there. They were all there and told me good-bye, with the ex- 
ception of two or three who accompanied me to the train, including Mr. 
Frank. There were no women at the factory. I have never seen Mr. 
Dalton in the factory in my life. Daisy Hopkins worked on the office 
floor. She left the factory June 6th, 1912, as appears on the time book. 
Never saw her in the factory after she quit work. On the first Saturday 
in January, Frank remained in the office with me until 5 o'clock to catch 
my train. I was at the factory last Thanksgiving Day. It was very cold 
and rainy. It was a holiday at the factory. The office boy and Conley 
were also there. I ordered Conley to come back that day to clean up the 
box room with Frank Payne, the office boy. Conley got through about 
half past ten. I know he did not stay at the factory until noon. Frank 
and I were all of the time in the office doing clerical work. Frank left 
that day at 12 o'clock. We left together. I saw Frank catch his car for 
home that day. Frank was carrying bundles, for the B'nai B'rith, which 



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was going to have an affair that night. Mr. Frank is president of it. It 
is a charitable organization. It takes care of orphans and things of that 
sort. I paid off the help on Friday, April 25th, from the pay window out- 
side of the office. I remember paying off Helen Ferguson that day. No- 
body came up to ask for Mary Phagan's pay. Before any one could get 
another's envelope, they have to have a note to that effect. There was 
no reason for anyone to go to Mr. Frank to get their pay Friday, April 
25th. I was at the window paying off employees. We had posters put up 
all over the factory announcing that Saturday would be a legal holiday 
and that the factory would be closed. Those who would not call for their 
pay would frequently come in on the next working day, which in this in- 

[87] 

stance would be Monday. No one could really know whether anyone was 
coming in for their pay on Saturday or not. Helen Ferguson did not ask 
for Mary Phagan's pay Friday, April 25th. Mr. Frank and I left the fac- 
tory between six and six-thirty that day. I was supposed to get up the 
pencil contracts for the week on Friday. It was necessary to get this up 
in order to complete the financial sheets. I did not get them up on Fri- 
day, because I had to pay off on Friday, and as the week only closed on 
Thursday night, we had all we could do to figure out the pay roll and get 
the money before the bank closed at 2 o'clock on Friday. That threw ex- 
tra work on Mr. Frank in getting up the financial on Saturday. I in- 
tended to come back to the factory on Saturday morning, but overslept 
myself. Mr. Frank called me by telephone twice on Saturday morning. 
My maid answered the telephone. That picture (State's Exhibit "A") 
shows Mr. Frank's office, inner office, to be bigger than the outer office. 
As a matter of fact the outer office is twice as large as the inner office. 
The picture shows an inaccuracy as to the relative position of the eleva- 
tor shaft from the outer wall of Mr. Frank's office. It is directly oppo- 
site the time clock. The picture shows it below the time clock nearly to 
where the staircase is. The door entering into the Clarke Woodenware 
place was open two or three days after the murder. The door was pre- 
viously locked. There is a hole back there through which waste is thrown 
down. It is an open hole. There is no lid to it. It is big enough for the 
body of a girl of the size of Mary Phagan to go through. If a body was 
thrown down it, it would roll down and stop on the platform. Mr. Frank 
did not know that I had not completed the data sheet (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit "3") for him before Saturday morning. It usually took Mr. Frank 
and me about three hours to finish the financial sheet. That is the finan- 
cial sheet that Mr. Frank made up on Saturday afternoon, April 26th 
(Defendant's Exhibit "2.") It is in his handwriting. I didn't see it at 
the factory on Friday. First saw it the following week when I got it back 
from the general manager. It is accurately prepared from the calcula- 
tions left by me on the data sheet. I haven't found any mistakes in it. 
The first items on it are standing items and do not require any calcula- 
tions, if you know it. Those are the items headed, "direct, indirect, rent, 
light, heat, water, power, insurance, sales department, repair sundries, 
machine shop." Under the heading "Material Costs," the first figure 



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27651/2 represents the number of gross that we manufactured for that 
week. That is the data I furnished him through Wednesday night. I 
left it there on his desk on Friday night. Mr. Frank's calculation corre- 
sponds with the data that I left there. He arrived at the same figure, 
2765 12, that I did. To get that figure he had to enter all his packing re- 
ports for Thursday containing two or three pages, each of them contain- 
ing 12 to 15 or 18 items. He has to put that down under the number of 
pencils that shows on this sheet. He has to calculate and have a separate 
report as to each kind of pencil and then add them up. We manufacture 
over a hundred kinds of pencils. That week we dealt with about thirty- 
five different kinds. To do this you have to add, multiply, classify and 

[88] 

separate each pencil into a different class. The next item appearing on 
the financial sheet is "slats," 2719 . In calculating that he had to cal- 
culate the number of gross of slats used, of the product of the pencils, 
which should check up with the number of gross manufactured. He 
would have to go through the packing report for that. The next item is 
"rubber," 720 gross at 61/2 cents, 667 + at 9 cents, 7061/2 at 14 cents. 
That means the rubber plug that goes into the pencil tips. The cheaper 
pencil takes a cheap plug and the higher grade pencil takes a higher 
grade plug. That shows how many we use and the kind of plugs; to ar- 
rive at that figure he had to go all through the grade of pencils for the 
entire week, and separate the different ones. That is quite a calculation. 
Next item is "tips," the different kind of tips that are used on the pencil 
to hold the plug. He would have to go through the grade for the entire 
week, just like he did for the rubber. The next item is "lead," which he 
had to figure out the same way. Different class pencils take different 
class lead. The next item is "supplies," that is a fixed thing and involves 
no calculation. The next thing is "boxes." We have some pencils that 
are packed in boxes and some that are not packed in boxes, and he had to 
ascertain what pencils were packed in boxes, and in gross boxes, and in 
half gross boxes, multiply them, get them all down together under the 
head of" gross" to know how many boxes we used. Next item is "assort- 
ment boxes." He has to sort out his packing reports to know the num- 
ber had for that week. The next item "wrappers" requires calculation 
because every dozen pencils takes a wrapper. People sometimes want 
them packed in tissue paper, and he has to know which pencils are packed. 
He has got to go through all the pencils to determine which took wrap- 
pers and which did not. Our pencil production averaged 2,500 to 3,000 
gross per week. A gross is 144. The next item is "skeletons." Skele- 
ton is a card board with a little place in it where six pencils go on one side 
and six on the other and the wrapper goes around it. The assortment 
boxes don't take skeletons, the cheaper pencils do. He had to know the 
details of the production of pencils to determine how many skeletons 
were used, just like he did the wrappers. The next item that required 
figures is "lead deliveries." We had two other places where we get ma- 
terials from, slat mills at Oakland City and lead mills at Bell and Deca- 
tur Streets. Mr. Frank kept the pay roll for Bell Street, and the lead de- 



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liveries for Bell Street. He had to get up for the next item the slats that 
were cheap and good. Then he had to calculate all this stuff on down. 
Next on this big sheet we have the number of every pencil manufactured. 
We only use the numbers that are packed that week. When he gets 
through he adds the total of the productions for that week of that depart- 
ment and he comes over here and puts it down and multiplies it by the 
price, the selling price, and besides these items we have pencils that are 
bad. For instance, we have some of these jobs, if they have plugs in 
them that are bad, he has to figure the number of plugs and the number 
of tips that were in his job and put in all his jobs and come over there and 
put down what his jobs amount to. That requires quite a good deal of 

[89] 

calculating. The handwriting on the financial of April 26th is in Mr. 
Frank's usual and average handwriting. I have been over carefully the 
calculations in it and it represents accurately the operations of the fac- 
tory for that week. We did not do any of the work on that sheet on Fri- 
day. I think it would take about three hours to go through the calcula- 
tions and complete that sheet. That was our average time. There is no 
difference in the handwriting of Mr. Frank in the financial sheet of April 
26th, from that of the week previous. It is just the same. The financial 
sheets are all kept in this book here (Defendant's Exhibit "9.") The 
one ending May 30, 1912, is in Mr. Frank's handwriting. It was made on 
the Saturday following that date. None of these financial reports could 
be made in less time than two hours and a half. All these financial sheets 
beginning with May 30, 1912, down to date are all in Mr. Frank's hand- 
writing. They were all done on Saturday afternoons. From May 30, 
1912, up to date, Mr. Frank did not miss making a single financial sheet 
on Saturday afternoon. These are the original financial sheets (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit "9.") They are kept in our safe at the factory. This lit- 
tle cash book (Defendant's Exhibit "10") shows the petty cash checks 
we receive and what we spend it for, little items like kerosene, things like 
that. The week of April 26th, we used $56.53 of the $96.48 we had, leav- 
ing $40.00 on hand. The next week we had left on hand $34.54. That is 
what is marked to balance, but that does not always mean that we have 
that much money on hand. It means that we have accounted for it. We 
may have lent it out, in advances to men. We put tickets in the cash 
drawer when we do that and we count it as actual cash. On that Satur- 
day, we couldn't have over $30 or $35 in the drawer. Yes, I acquainted 
Joel Hunter, the accountant, with all the data that goes in the financial 
sheet and explained it to him in detail, and also Mr. Bidwell. I gave them 
all the data necessary to make up the sheet. The sheet here headed 
"Comparison 1912-1913" (Defendant's Exhibit " 1 1 " is made up by Mr. 
Frank to show the difference between one week of this year and the same 
week of last year and in making that up he has to take the financial sheet 
that he made this year and turn to the financial sheet that he made last 
year for the same week and compare them. This is the comparison sheet 
he made on Saturday. It is dated April 24, 1913. (Defendant's Exhibit 
"11.") The requisition and house order book (Defendant's Exhibit 



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"12") also show Mr. Frank's handwriting on April 26th. Also the last 
two lines of these pencil sheets (Defendant's Exhibit "7") are in Mr. 
Frank's handwriting. I made up the pencil sheets through Wednesday, 
but he had to make it up after Thursday. He had to put in all the items 
from the packing room for Thursday, enter them under the numbers on 
these other sheets and then add every item for the whole week. Mr. 
Frank had to fill in April 24th on all three papers and then get in all those 
totals in on that. All of the last two lines are in his handwriting. He 
added up all this report for Thursday. He went through the report to 
figure them up, that was usually my work. It would take him about fif- 
teen, twenty or twenty-five minutes. The house order book shows what 

[90] 

day an order is received, the firm it is received from, where their place of 
business and what date it is shipped. As to what work is in this house 
order book (Defendant's Exhibit 12) that Mr. Frank did on Saturday, 
there is work in there in Mr. Frank's handwriting that wasn't in there 
when I left the night of April 25th. Beginning with item 7187 on page 
56, "Received from F. W. Woolworth, store 57, St. Joseph, Mo., came in 
on the 16th, 17th, to be shipped at once." That is in Mr. Frank's hand- 
writing, he entered that order. He would have to have that order before 
him before he could enter in that book. The next item he entered was 
"House order 7188, F. W. Woolworth, Store 68, Terre Haute, Ind." 
That was to be filled at once. He would send an acknowledgment card 
for every order we received. If the order wasn't understood, he would 
write. The next item he entered was "House order 7189, Woolworth 
Store 53, Logansport, Ind., to be shipped at once, received on 4-26-13." 
He figured that order out and entered it. The next order is "House or- 
der 7190, store 585, DeKalb, 111., received 4-26-13, ship at once." The 
next order is "House order 7191, store 25, Wilkesbarre, Pa., received 
4-26-13, ship at once." Next order "House order, 7192, store 212, Sara- 
toga Springs, N. Y., received 4-26-13 to be shipped at once." The next 
order is 7193, send by mail to United Service Sioux 5 and 10 cent store, 
Sioux, Mich., received 4-26-13, to be shipped August 1st." Next order 
is "House order 7194, Dubuque, Iowa, 4-26-13, at once." Next is "House 
order 7195, Montag Brothers, Atlanta, Ga., received 4-26-13, to be ship- 
ped at once." Next is "House order 7196, John Leellie, to John Magnus 
Company, Chicago, 111., 4-26-13, at once." Next is "House order 7197, 
R. E. Kendall Company, Cincinnati, Ohio, received 4-26-13, ship at 
once." All of these eleven orders are in Mr. Frank's handwriting and 
he entered them that day. That is the regular book that we keep those 
orders in (Defendant's Exhibit "12.") I have looked at the original or- 
ders and compared them with Mr. Frank's entry in the book and they are 
correct. I have here the original orders from which Mr. Frank made his 
entries, with the exception of one, which I can't find. They were in Mr. 
Dorsey's possession for some time. These are the eleven original orders 
(Defendant's Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24.) After 
Frank entered the orders in the house order book, he transcribed them 
to these requisition sheets. In other words, in each order that he re- 



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ceives, he enters the order in the book, then makes out one of these requi- 
sition sheets and then makes the acknowledgment of the order to the 
party ordering the goods. All of these eleven requisition sheets (De- 
fendant's Exhibits 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35), are in Mr. 
Frank's handwriting and are 0. K. 'd by me when I check it, which means 
that we ship the goods. All of the goods called for by these orders have 
been shipped out by me after being 0. K'd. with the exception of the or- 
der of R. E. Kendall and Company, 7197, (Defendant's Exhibit "24"), 
which was cancelled by letter. None of these orders were at the pencil 
factory when I left there Friday night, and they were there when I got 
back on Monday. The work of looking over the orders and entering them 

[91] 

in the order book and making out the requisition has nothing to do with 
making out the financial sheet. It is entirely independent of it. The 
financial sheet shows the factory's operations from Friday morning, 
through Thursday night. These orders go into the next week's business. 
I saw Mr. Frank on Sunday after the murder. There was no scratch, 
mark or bruise on him. Mr. Frank is a man of extreme temperament. If 
anything went wrong about the factory, he would go all to pieces and get 
nervous. It was not unusual for Mr. Frank to get nervous. When a 
young child was run over by a street car, he came back as pale as death, 
and I had to give him a dose of ammonia. He was no good for the rest of 
the day. I know Jim Conley's character for truth and veracity. It is 
bad. I would not believe him on oath. The paper that these notes 
found by the body was written on can be found all over the 
plant. They get swept to the basement in the trash. I heard the tele- 
phone conversation between Mr. Frank and Mr. Ursenbach about the 
ball game. I heard Mr. Frank say, "Yes, Charles, I will go if I can." 
Sitting at Mr. Frank's desk in the inner office you can see about half of 
the dial of clock No. 2. You cannot see the steps leading down to the first 
floor. If the safe door is open in the center office you can't see anything 
at all. It would have to be a pretty tall man to see over it. It would be 
impossible for a girl of Monteen Stover's height to see over it. The safe 
door is always wide open while we are in the factory. I went through 
the safe Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. I didn't find any mesh bag 
or pocketbook. I was with Mr. Frank constantly while he was at the fac- 
tory on the Tuesday morning after the murder. He did not speak to the 
negro Conley that day. Monday we tried to open up the factory, but 
everybody was so excited that we couldn't do any work. The girls were 
standing around crying. We had to suspend. As I went out of shipping 
room that morning, I saw Conley standing in the back of room. I said, 
"What are you doing here?" He says: "I am scared to go out, I would 
give a million dollars if I was a white man." It is very dark on the 
ground floor around the elevator. I have never known the doors to Mr. 
Frank's inner or outer office to be locked. Even if they were you can see 
right through them, part of the door being glass. Anybody could look 
through them and see what is going on in the office. The door to the ele- 
vator can be easily lifted by anyone and anyone can be pushed down the 



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elevator shaft. The motor to the elevator is on the office floor, and the 
wheels are on the top floor. When you start up, there is a noise. You 
can always hear the jerk when the rope is pulled, and when it stops there 
is a noise and when it hits the basement floor, there is a thud. The motor 
also makes a distinct humming noise. The motor box is not kept locked. 
I have gotten after Jim Conley many times about not registering. We 
have docked him for not doing it. I have noticed blood spots on the floors 
of the factory. Whenever one gets his finger hurt, he has to come to the 
office to get it tied up. People have gotten hurt in the metal room, and in 
coming to the office would walk by the ladies' closet, through those doors. 
The spots that Barrett pointed out in the regular path where a man 

[92] 

would come to the office if he were injured. There were four or five 
strands of hair that Barrett discovered. I saw them. Could not pos- 
sibly tell what color it was. The metal room floor has not been washed 
since I have been there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a negro there. 
Frank telephoned me three or four times on Monday to get the Pinker- 
ton's. He was at home. I was at the factory. When the detectives got 
to the factory Frank was at the station house. He was there nearly all 
morning. He phoned me at first about twelve o'clock, and then again 
about twelve-thirty. He wanted me to see if we could not in justice to all 
the employees try to sift this thing down, and he suggested getting the 
Pinkertons. He phoned again near one o'clock. Mr. Frank spoke about 
his nervousness. He didn't talk a great deal about it. He may have 
spoken to me once or twice about it. I think one time he explained to me 
how terrible the girl looked and the other time that they rushed him to 
the undertaker's in a dark room and threw on the light. He said he was 
awfully shaken up. As to what Mr. Frank said when they telephoned 
him about the murder, he asked what was the matter, had there been a 
fire at the factory. Another reason he was nervous he said, he hadn't 
had any breakfast, he wanted a cup of coffee. We had been without a 
stenographer quite a while. The work had accumulated to some extent. 
As to what work there was in the factory for Mr. Frank to do Saturday 
except the financial sheet, he entered the orders, made requisitions. I do 
not know that Miss Hall entered all those orders. I know she took dicta- 
tion. That is all I know about it. The first time I saw those orders en- 
tered on the order book was on Monday or Tuesday. It takes about an 
hour or an hour and a quarter to enter those orders on the book. It is 
true that I testified before the coroner that it wouldn't take over half an 
hour to enter the orders. It takes an hour and a half to do all of the work 
of transcribing them that you pointed out to me. Acknowledgments are 
usually made by the person who transcribes the orders and enters them 
on the requisition. If Mr. Frank didn't make acknowledgments, that 
would not make a difference of over five or ten minutes in time. I said it 
would take an hour and a half to do all of the work lying on the table, 
requisition and all, transcribe them and acknowledge them. As to what 



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that work was, beginning with order 7187 on the 26th, there are eleven 
orders, going down through 7197. None of that was done on Friday, be- 
cause the orders weren't there when I left Friday night. I left Friday 
night at half past six. I didn't go to the factory on Saturday morning. 
I have never timed Mr. Frank entering those orders. I said I guessed it 
would take him thirty minutes to actually enter them. After entering 
them he must transcribe and acknowledge them. The initials "H. H." 
on these orders (Defendant's Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 
24), means Miss Hattie Hall, the stenographer. "H. G. S." on these 

[93] 

requisitions (Defendant's Exhibits 25 to 35, inclusive), are my initials, 
mean that I checked the order and 0. K.'d it and it's gone. Miss Hattie 
Hall wrote the letters acknowledging the orders. I know that because 
the latter has the letters "H. H." dictated by ." We haven't any reg- 
ular way of acknowledging. Some orders are acknowledged before they 
are ever touched. There is no certain first step. It is not necessary that 
they should be entered in the book first. One step doesn't hinge on the 
other. If Hattie Hall had anything to do with writing these things, it 
was done Saturday morning. The orders must also be transcribed from 
the order to requisition sheet. The average sheet was the only sheet that 
had not been worked on Friday that I found had been worked on when I 
got back there. It had not been touched on Friday, and I had not given 
any data for it when I left. The data I had to get up for it was the flat 
production, the packing room production, the tips, I get that from this 
packing room report (Defendant's Exhibit 4-A). The handwriting is 
that of Miss Eula May Flowers, the forelady. When I received that re- 
port, I had to accumulate all the data, penciled it, and transferred it to 
the pencil sheets here (Defendant's Exhibit 7). These three sheets are 
the only thing connected with the packing room for the week of April 
24th. I wrote the figures Wednesday night and Mr. Frank did it Thurs- 
day. Mr. Frank had to add two lines to the sheet. He could get those 
from Miss Flowers' report just as well as I could. The figures on the 
bottom of the page are his. All the writing on this sheet is mine except 
the last two lines at the bottom, which are his (Defendant's Exhibit 7). 
On that sheet, yes, there are just eleven figures, but you got three sheets 
to get it from, one line on all three sheets and the total, making six lines 
altogether. It is not easy to say how long that would take. It is merely 
looking at those things and putting them down, you have got to go over 
it, and get the different classes of goods that we pack and take it and put 
it under the head of specialty, that is the head of the classes of goods 
manufactured that week. You must have the slat record. I haven't got 
the slat record here. It certainly is different from this. It comes from 
the cedar mill. The item on the financial sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 2) 
that he got from the slat record is the item under "Material Cost"— 
"Slats 27191 gross at 22c." That is all he would have to get on the 
financial sheet with reference to slats. That wouldn't take any more 
time than taking these daily reports and putting them on here. He also 
had to get the lead deliveries from the lead plant and the tip deliveries 



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from the tip plant. Our numbers run on the sheet like this, 10X, 20X, etc. 
Our two 10X pencils, for instance, manufactured for the Cadillac Motor 
Company, if they want a pencil with their name on it and our's not on it, 
we call it the 10X special, of 5 10X Cadillac special. We have got to go 
down through each number that has been sold and get the make of each 
style of pencil and they have to go in the right square, covering the right 
shape and the right number of gross. If he didn't he wouldn't balance 
with his packing reports and the whole sheet would be incorrect. These 
papers here and the tip plant and the slat record and the lead record and 

[94] 

the packing are all the papers I know were not worked on Friday night 
and which I found at the factory when I got there Monday. Frank needs 
those four reports to make up his financial. Doing that work and enter- 
ing those eleven orders is all that I know Frank had to do on April 26th. 
I didn't see them done. I say I found them done the next week. It was 
certainly done between Friday night and Monday morning. I didn't see 
the financial sheet on Monday. The slat record comes from slat mills 
and tip record from the tip plant. I compiled the data at our plant. If 
Frank had started to work at eight-thirty, I think he could have finished 
a greater part of this work by ten-thirty, if he had worked continuously. 
It is true that he could have done all of the work in two hours and a half. 
I didn't hear him say that he could have done it in an hour and a half. 
The work that I have just been over and the entries in the book and the 
letters that he dictated to the stenographer is the sum total of all the 
work that I have seen done on the books in the office on April 26th. Mr. 
Frank and I were not paid off on the 25th, or 26th. In addition to the 
work I have gone over, Mr. Frank had to balance the cash. This is his 
writing in the cash book (Defendant's Exhibit 40) and all those figures 
were made that day. It doesn't mean that 15c worth of kerosene was 
purchased that day, because the entry is not dated that day, it means 
that the figures were put on there that day, for the reason that the week 
is not closed until that is added to the cash. The date this kerosene was 
purchased, April 21st, is found in the little receipt book (Defendant's 
Exhibit 10). It was purchased on the 21st, as shown in the receipt book, 
but was not entered in the cash book until the 26th. We don't put our 
items in the cash book the minute they are purchased. We put the total 
of each item under sub-heads. If we pay drayage $2.00 on Tuesday, $2.00 
on Thursday and $2.00 on Saturday, there would not be three entries in 
the cash book, but they would be under one head "Drayage, $6.00," and 
everything else the same way. When we advance a man money it is put 
down on a slip and entered in an envelope, called "Loan." We don't 
take a receipt for it. I can show that Frank gave $2.00 to Arthur White 
and it was deducted. I made the entry in the time book the next week 
and deducted it the following Saturday. We don't enter it on the cash 
book. This average sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 5) is all in Mr. Frank's 
handwriting. It begins from January 10, 1911. As a rule Mr. Frank put 
on the financial sheet the average to show the General Manager how the 
average of our orders have run. I don't see it on the financial for that 



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week. It is no rule. I said he usually does it. It doesn't affect the finan- 
cial sheet, however, if it is not on there. It doesn't keep the financial 
sheet from being completed. I say he did work on the average sheet on 
Saturday because those orders came in that day. I know they could not 
have been entered the Thursday before and they were entered in fact Sat- 
urday because I had gone over the orders and find that they average the 
same thing that he has got on the average sheet. None of these orders 
came in the factory before Saturday morning, because they were not 
there Friday night when I left. I am sure of that. I have never known 

[95] 

Mr. Frank to leave there on a Saturday with the financial sheet not ready. 
He would not go to a ball game unless he had his work up. I heard him 
say on Friday afternoon that he was going to try to go to the ball game. 
We left there Friday night together. He didn't go back that night. I 
said at the coroner's inquest that if the data had been gotten up for him 
it would take him an hour and a half to two hours. I don't remember 
saying that it would take only two hours and a half for both the data and 
the financial sheet. I meant two hours and a half without the data. I 
say it would have taken from two and a half hours to three hours to have 
gotten it all up. I am not an expert accountant, and I base my opinion 
on the reason that I have gone back at the same time and have sat down 
with him while he was working and seen him when he was finished. He 
couldn't hurry over the work, and get it correct. I think he could get it 
up quicker than I could. I am positive that I said at the Coroner's in- 
quest that he could get it up a half an hour quicker than I. I may have 
said so, that was only an estimate. I have never made up a financial 
sheet. My estimate of the time referred to Frank doing it. I couldn't 
tell how long it would take to balance that cash. I said at the Coroner's 
inquest between an hour and an hour and a half. It all depends on 
whether you balance or not. We keep our little change in nickles, dimes, 
quarters and halves, and you have to take the money out of the sack, 
stack it up and count it. As to how I remember where I was last Thanks- 
giving Day, because I was going to Athens to see the Georgia foot-ball 
game. I remember it snowed and I didn't go. I told Conley and the 
office boy to come back and be at the factory. The second reason I re- 
member is because of the B'nai B'rith affair which Mr. Frank went to 
and I helped him carry his packages to the car. As to my remembering 
every Saturday that I have been there for six months previous, I have 
never lost a day from the factory since I have been there with the excep- 
tion of my vacation. I was with Mr. Frank until half past twelve on 
Thanksgiving Day, when I left him at the corner of Mitchell and Ala- 
bama, where he caught a Washington Street car. I don't know what he 
did that afternoon. I do know that I remained at the factory every Sat- 
urday afternoon since I have been there because I have not lost a day. I 
paid off Friday, April 25th. I remember Helen Ferguson coming to the 
window and I paid her. I can tell you the names of many more that I 
paid off that afternoon. (Witness gives names of eight or ten more he 
claims to have paid off). Mr. Frank and Mr. Holloway were there at the 



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time. It is very dark underneath the chute near the Clarke Woodenware 
Company place, and we kept shellac in front of the door there. It is the 
door to the left. We did not have boxes piled around there after this 
murder occurred. If a body had been shot down there, it would have 
been 20 or 25 feet from that door. We go down there every day or so to 
get shellac; you don't have to pass by the opening under this chute. I 
never mentioned any indication that anybody had walked around the 
chute. I saw the place in the metal department on the second floor where 
they said there was blood. It looked like a small spot covered with 

[96] 

white. It looked like blood from a finger being cut. It looked like hasko- 
line had been splashed all over the metal department. There was noth- 
ing different about that particular spot from any others, except that it 
was red. It looked like it had been swept over. As to those steps by the 
chute I don't know that they were nailed up immediately after the mur- 
der. Three days after I came up those steps. I don't remember whether 
it was before or after the insurance people made us clean up. I know I 
was at the factory on Saturdays and holidays after twelve o'clock. I 
change the clock at times if I find that it is not right. We don't run it 
five minutes ahead of time. Every time I look at it it is on time. We do 
not have to regulate it often. We regulate it by the whistle in back of us 
every day at twelve o'clock. We don't set it every time we hear the whis- 
tle though. We have had unreliable people at the factory. We give them 
a trial. I knew that Conley was unreliable a good while ago. Found it 
out the first time I ever spoke to him. When we found that we couldn't 
trust him we took him off of the elevator. Mr. Darley and I did it. We 
didn't take it up with Frank. Girls in the factory have told me about his 
worthlessness. Miss Carson and others have told me he tried to borrow 
money and slip off. She complained to me several times about it, that he 
was trifling and didn't clean up her department, that he didn't move the 
pencils, that he sprinkled on top of the pencils, that he tried to borrow 
money. The negroes would come to me and told me that he wouldn't pay 
his debts and slip off. I don't know whether I ever took these complaints 
to Mr. Frank or not. I was not under Mr. Frank. I had authority to fire 
him, but I didn't do it, because in a factory like that it is hard to get a 
negro who knows something about it. He was in the chain-gang two or 
three times, once he worked on Forsyth Street in front of the building, 
and then women would come up to me and try to get money to get him 
out, two or three times. That has happened since he has been working 
at the factory. I know that he has been in the chain-gang once, when I 
saw him working in front of the factory. The times was when women 
came up there and tried to get money to get him out. I have seen these 
books scattered all over the factory, whole books and parts of books. I 
have seen them since this murder. Both before and after. I have seen 
sheets sometimes. I knew that Jim could write. I have given him and 
the other negroes tablets like this (State's Exhibit H). They are kept 
everywhere in the factory. They would go down in the basement and 
write. I did not talk to Frank on Monday or Tuesday about Jim Con- 



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ley's peculiar conduct after the murder. I talked to Darley. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

When I stated that it took two and a half hours to three hours to 
make up the financial sheet, I meant without any interruptions. We have 
quite a few interruptions on Saturdays, salesmen drop in, draymen and 
people come in, for their envelopes after we have paid off. When I said 
to Mr. Dorsey that he might do the work from 8:30 to 10:30, 1 had refer- 
ence purely to the financial sheet. Making the entries in the house order 

[97] 

book, requisitions and dictating the correspondence, I did not include. 
The correspondence and the entries in the requisition book is usually 
done in the morning. We usually go to Montag Brothers about 8:30, get 
the mall, come right back, acknowledge the orders and answer the corre- 
spondence. I have never known Mr. Frank to take up the financial sheet 
before the afternoon. After he finished his financial, Mr. Frank would 
usually make two copies of the result of it, and send one of them to his 
uncle, who is a stockholder and the other to Mr. Pappenheimer, who is 
the president. My estimate of the time was two and a half hours for the 
financial sheet, and one and a half hours for the other work. Mr. Dor- 
sey's picture (State's Exhibit A) shows nothing in the Clarke Wooden- 
ware Company except the front of it. It has left out every scuttle hole, 
and toilet and everything there. It fails to show the door that enters into 
the partition to the basement. Hasn't got either one of these two front 
doors. Mr. Frank's wife frequently did some shorthand work for him 
on Saturday afternoons. I have seen her there often when we were be- 
hind in our work. The haskoline did not hide the red spots at all. You 
couldn't tell whether it was on top or on bottom of the red. It is nothing 
unusual for the white stuff to be spilled all over the metal room. I did 
not know that Conley was denying that he could write in the station 
house, for quite a while. The Pinkerton men came over to the factory to 
find out if he could. I looked all over and found a card where he had 
signed a signature for a jeweler for a watch. The detectives found the 
information by coming to the factory. The negroes always ate in the 
basement. Conley was familiar with the basement. Mr. Dorsey sub- 
poenaed me to his office, he subpoenaed some of the others. I think he 
phoned to me. Empty sacks are usually moved a few hours after they 
are taken off the cotton. 
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION. 

I had no objection to coming to your (Mr. Dorsey's) office. I offered 
to assist you in any way I could. No, it was not Mr. Frank's custom to 
make an engagement Friday for Saturday evening and then go off and 
leave the financial sheet untouched. The pencil factory is three or four 
blocks from Montag's. Some of them are short blocks. Guess it takes 
three to five minutes to go over there. I have never timed myself. The 
first time on Monday I observed the peculiar behavior of Conley was be- 
tween half past seven or eight o'clock, he was sitting in dressing room on 
a box. It was after that I went with Detective Starnes to try to locate 
Gantt and arrest him. Frank never went to baseball games or matinees 



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on Saturday. The only pictures that are hanging on the walls of Mr. 
Frank's office is a calendar that Truitt and Sons give away. No, I don't 
know whether the detectives found out elsewhere that Conley could 
write. I gave them the information when they came to the factory. It 
was on Monday morning that I saw the haskoline and the red spots. If 
the blinds had been closed it would have been some darker, not a big dif- 
ference. 

[98] 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 
I have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan. 
JOEL C. HUNTER, sworn for the defendant. 
I am a public accountant, engaged in the profession ten or fifteen 
years. I have examined the financial sheet said to be made by Leo M. 
Frank. I examined a copy and then checked it against the original. In 
order to find out how long it would take a person to make out these re- 
ports, I went through the calculations. I did not make out the sheets. I 
verified the extensions and calculations on the financial sheet (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 2). I found them correct within a decimal. There is one 
item a decimal is incorrect. That was immaterial, merely an error in 
the calculation. In order to find out how long it would take that report 
to be made up, I made an examination, line by line, item for item. I fig- 
ured an approximate time it would take to make the various entries if 
they had all of the data immediately available, and how long if it was not 
immediately available. I put these down in two separate columns and 
then struck an average. In my opinion the quickest possible time to make 
out this report, balance the cash, make out the comparative statements 
and the copies of which they furnished me, I figured 150 minutes. I 
don't think that could have been done in that time except by someone 
having experience in it and knowing how to set up these facts and figures. 
This would not allow for checking the figures. In my opinion, it would 
take from three to three and a half hours to make out this report, balance 
the cash, make out the two copies and the comparison of 1912 and 1913. 
(Witness then details time it would take in his opinion for each particu- 
lar item that has been calculated and entered and how he figured it). In 
my opinion it would take a pretty swift man three and a half hours. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

A man's familiarity with a special class of work will aid materially 
in making it up. If he had had to get up the information which was fur- 
nished me it would take him a good deal longer than it did me, for the 
information was already furnished me. I have allowed for his experi- 
ence and familiarity with the business, in the way of saving time, in mak- 
ing my estimate. I have tried to make my figures sufficiently conserva- 
tive to make allowance for a man in charge of the work. I have tried to 
show it done in the quickest possible time. I think it will be wonderful to 
make it in less than that. I think a man who could make it out and verify 
it as he went along, it would take the whole afternoon. 
C. E. POLLARD, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am an expert accountant. I was called into this matter for the pur- 



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pose of seeing the length of time it would take to gather these figures and 
get the result on the financial sheet and other papers that were furnished 

[99] 
100 

me. I studied each sheet and when I was sure of what the result would 
be I would lay that sheet down and make a copy of it. I would take time 
myself for each operation. There was a discrepancy of one and one-half 
gross on the factory records in the figures, out of 27651/2 gross, (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 2). It was an immaterial error. The minimum time that 
I could do that work in I found to be three hours and 1 1 minutes, that 
was as quick as I could do it. If I had been interrupted in my work, of 
coursb it would have taken me longer. I have been an expert accountant 
for 15 or 16 years. The mistake that I found occurred on the Saturday 
of the week before. It was not Frank's mistake, but somebody else com- 
piled the figures for that week. There is another trifling mistake under 
the head of "value of products, pencils packed" that did not figure the 
same as mine. Those are the only two mistakes I found on the whole 
financial sheet-a mistake of 50c. and a gross and a half of pencils. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

In making my experiment of how long it would take, I was furnished 
with all my data. I didn't have to get up any of the data. I am consid- 
ered rapid in my work. The mistake of one and a half gross occurred on 
April 18th and 19th. I don't know whose mistake it was. Anybody can 
work on his books with a great deal more ease than an outsider can. The 
mistake I mentioned did not make the other calculations wrong, the other 
calculations were all right. The mistake grew out of just one multiplica- 
tion. In multiplying 791 gross at 50.1 cents, Frank made the total $396.75, 
instead of $396.29. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

In making out this sheet Mr. Frank had to make about 40 multipli- 
cations, 160 additions. The mistake is not a serious one. 
HERBERT G. SCHIFF, recalled for cross examination. 
The books show that $4 was loaned to Arthur White. I made the en- 
try in the book. The $2.00 was for what Mr. Frank loaned him that day 
and $2.00 loaned him the middle of next week. As to where the entry is 
that Mr. Frank lent Arthur White $2.00 these slips are not kept after we 
take it off. After the pay roll is made we destroy those. The books show 
that this $2.00 was added to the other $2.00. There was approximately 
$1,100.00 paid off on Friday on the pay roll. There was about 5 or 6 en- 
velopes left over, not called for. The numbers go on different places on 
the envelopes. The clocks we have now are the same we had when Gantt 
was there. Whenever there was any trouble we phoned for a man to look 
after the clock. 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 
Whenever accidents would happen in the factory we would have the 

[100] 

person come to the office, to the outer office, wherd we would bandage 



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their hands with the few medical supplies we keep there. Then we make 
a report to the insurance company as to the cause of the accident and any 
witnesses. We always found the clocks kept good time. 
MISS HATTIE HALL, sworn for the defendant. 
I am a stenographer for the National Pencil Company. I do most of 
the work in the office of Montag Bros. Whenever it is necessary I go 
down to the National Pencil factory and do work there. I saw Mr. Frank 
about ten o'clock of the morning of April 26th, at Montag Bros., when he 
came over there that morning. He came in Mr. Sig Montag's office, where 
I was taking dictation and I told him that I didn't know whether I would 
be able to go over there that morning or not, as Mr. Montag was giving 
me letters and Mr. Frank said: "Well, come if you possibly can." He 
had previously asked me over the telephone to come over to the factory. 
That was about half an hour before he came over to Montag Bros. I 
had called him up to get a duplicate bill of lading and in the course of the 
conversation, I asked him if he would need me over there that morning, 
on account of his having an inexperienced stenographer over there, I had 
been going over there all during the month of April on that account. He 
said "Please come over, I have some work for you to do." It was 20 or 
30 minutes after that that he came over to Montag's. When he came in 
I told him that I was afraid I couldn't go over on account of the work I 
had to do at Montags, but Mr. Montag finished his dictation in a few min- 
utes, and I then told Mr. Frank that I would have time to come over there 
and that I would be over there later. I started over to the factory be- 
tween 10:30 and 1 1 . 1 went alone. It takes about five minutes to get over 
there and I reached there before eleven o'clock. I don't know whether 
Mr. Frank was there when I got there. I waited in the outer office a few 
minutes before I started to work. I went in the inner office to get the or- 
ders to acknowledge for Mr. Frank. I acknowledged them for Mr. Frank. 
I acknowledged them in the outer office. I do the typewriting in the outer 
office. These are the 1 1 orders (Defendant's Exhibit 1 1 to 24, inclusive), 
that Mr. Frank handed me and I acknowledged. You notice my initials 
on them "H. H." I put on there "Acknowledged, April 26th, by "H. H." 
Mr. Frank got the orders when he went over to Montag Bros, and 
brought them back with him. The acknowledgments are the first step, in 
that case. Several people came in while we were working, two men, one 
whose son worked there came in and spoke to Mr. Frank about the boy's 
being in some trouble in the police court. They went into the inner office 
to talk to him and he came out to the outer office with them. Miss Corin- 
thia Hall and Mrs. White also came in there in Mr. Frank's office and I 
talked with him. During this time Mr. Frank was not doing any work on 
the financial sheet. I find in this book (Defendant's Exhibit 12) all of 
the eleven orders which I acknowledged that morning, one order seems 
to be missing, I just find a requisition sheet for that. I did not enter 

[101] 

those orders on the book. It looks like Mr. Frank's handwriting. I did 
not write any of these requisition sheets. The entering of the requisition 
was done after I acknowledged the orders, because when they enter them 



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the house order number is put on them when they are put in the book and 
there was no house orders on them when I acknowledged them. There- 
fore, it had to be done afterwards. The requisition sheets are not made 
out until they are entered on the house order book and then acknowledged 
and then the requisition sheets are made. These eight letters (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 8) were dictated to me Saturday morning by Mr. Frank 
and I typewrote them there in the outer office. After finishing them I 
took them in the inner office to him. I did not file these carbon copies, but 
left them with Mr. Frank. Throughout the time that I was there that 
morning with Mr. Frank he did no work on the financial sheet. As I 
was ready to leave the noon whistle was blowing. At that time I was in 
the outer office. I went downstairs, and remembered that I had left my 
umbrella, went back, got my umbrella and started out. When I pushed 
the clock it was 2 minutes past 12. I did not see any little girl come along 
about that time. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The stenographer the pencil company had was inexperienced and 
did only about one-third of the work and that's the reason I had to do the 
other. I was getting $12.50 a week on April 26th. I am now getting $15. 
When I was first employed they said they would give me a raise on Aug- 
ust 1st. I insisted that I be raised on July 1st, but they wouldn't give it 
until August 1st. It was I that called Mr. Frank over the telephone. I 
did not insist on going over there. He insisted on my coming. The ac- 
knowledgments consisted of stamping orders with a number, putting the 
dates down there and acknowledging them by post cards sent to the peo- 
ple. Mr. Frank did not leave Montag 's with me. He left before I did. 
He didn't know how long it was going to take me to write those letters. 
Mr. Montag hadn't finished dictating to me when I talked to him, so he 
did not wait. While I was there in the office, two men and three women 
came in. The ladies came after the office boy had left and he said he left 
about 1 1 :30. The men were in the inner office with him about five or ten 
minutes. I was in the outer office. I started to work typewriting about 
two minutes after he finished dictating the letters. I don't know how 
long it took me to write them, I am not a very rapid typist. During the 
time I was writing, Mr. Frank was in the inside office, except when he 
came out to talk to Mrs. White and came to the door with those men. Af- 
ter typing them, I took them into him to sign. He folded the letters and 
put them in the envelopes himself. He did not ask me to stay until he 
looked over the letters. As to what else there was to be done that day, 
from the looks of the papers on his desk he had a good many to dispose 
of. He went through them as he was dictating to me, and there were a 
good many that he had to get rid of. I was over at the factory the pre- 
vious Saturday morning. He was not working on the financial sheet. I 

[102] 

got up for him the number of gross deliveries and the price and made an 
average charge of how much each gross would cost. That was a part of 
the data necessary for the financial sheet. When I testified before the 
Coroner, I thought that was the financial sheet itself, because I had never 



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seen a financial sheet before. I know now that it was the average sheet. I 
transferred some of those things to the average sheet. I never did see 
the financial sheet. Mr. Montag gets it. I did not help Mr. Frank on the 
financial sheet the previous Saturday. It was the average sheet I helped 
him on. I discovered my error as to this being the average sheet and not 
the financial sheet soon after the coroner's inquest. I know that Mr. 
Frank was not working on the financial sheet on the Saturday morning 
previous to the 26th. He was busy with something else altogether. He 
simply gave me that data to work on. I did not identify the financial 
sheet at the Coroner's inquest, I didn't even know it. I was not in Mr. 
Frank's inner office on April 26th, excepting when I got the orders from 
him. When I told the Coroner's jury, if I did tell them that, I didn't re- 
member being in his inner office at all, I have never been in a court room 
before. I was so rattled that I wasn't exactly myself. Mr. Frank told 
me that morning he wished Mr. Schiff would come over and finish the 
data, that he couldn't fix the financial sheet until Mr. Schiff got up the 
data, and he had Alonzo Mann telephone him to come over there to do it, 
but Mr. Schiff didn't come while I was there. I said at the Coroner's in- 
quest that I didn't see Mr. Frank working on any of these books that 
day, that I was in the outer office and he was in the inner office. There 
wasn't any such looking sheet as the financial on his desk. When I was 
in there he was at work on a pile of letters and things like that. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

When I was first employed at the factory Mr. Nix said to me, "I 
will give $12.50 a week, when the busy season opens up, about the first of 
August, I will raise it to $15. About the middle of June, I asked him to 
raise it on the first of July, but he said, "We will wait until August 1st." 
At that time I testified at the coroner's inquest, I had never seen any of 
the financial sheets. I did not write a figure on that financial sheet. At 
the inquest I thought the average sheet was the financial sheet. I told 
Mr. Frank that I couldn't stay longer than 12 o'clock, and he asked me to 
stay all the afternoon and help him, that he was busy. I also heard him 
ask Harry Gottheimer to come over in the afternoon. 
MISS CORINTHIA HALL, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work in the finishing up department of the pencil factory. I am a 
forelady. I was at the factory on April 26th, I got there about 25 min- 
utes to twelve. I had to come to town on the East Lake car and got to 
town about 11:30 and it took me about five minutes to reach the factory. 
Mrs. Emma Clarke Freeman was with me. She had spent the night with 
me. We went there after her coat and to telephone, to call up Mrs. Free- 

[103] 

man's husband. We went up to the fourth floor to get the coat and then 
came down and went in Mr. Frank's office. It was about 15 minutes to 12 
when we left the factory. Mr. Frank was writing when we came in his 
office. His stenographer was in the outer office. Mrs. Freeman said she 
would like to use the telephone. She used the telephone and then we 
went out. During the ten minutes we were there he was talking to two 
men between the outer office and the clock. He was dismissing those two 



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men when we came. Mrs. White and the stenographer were in the office 
then also. As we were going up the steps, Mr. Frank called to Mrs. Free- 
man to tell Arthur White to come down that his wife wanted to see him. 
On the fourth floor we saw May Barrett, Arthur White and Harry Den- 
ham. When we left the factory, the following people were still there: 
Arthur White, Mrs. White, May Barrett, her daughter, Harry Denham, 
the stenographer and Mr. Frank. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We met Mr. Holloway between Broad and Forsyth Streets as he 
came out of the factory as we went in. We met Lemmie Quinn after- 
wards at the Greek Cafe. Don't know what time it was when we came 
out, we went to corner of Alabama and Forsyth to use a telephone. It 
took us about five minutes to go there and come back to Greek Cafe. We 
got a cup of coffee and sandwich and were getting the change when Quinn 
came in. 

MRS. EMMA CLARKE FREEMAN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I married on April 25th. I worked at the pencil factory before that, 
at the time I was married. I was paid off on April 25th by Mr. Schiff. 
On the 26th I reached the factory with Miss Hall about 25 minutes to 12. 
I saw Mr. Frank at his office. He was talking to two men when we went 
in. Mrs. White and Mr. Frank's stenographer were also in the office. 
Mr. Frank gave us permission to go up on the fourth floor to get my coat. 
While we were going up the steps Mr. Frank called to me to tell Mr. 
White that Mrs. White wanted him. We went on up, I got my coat and 
came down, and asked permission of Mr. Frank to use telephone in his of- 
fice. I used the telephone. I spoke to Mrs. White a few minutes and then 
we left, which was about a quarter to twelve. I remember looking at the 
clock. When we left, there was in the building, May Barrett, the stenog- 
rapher, May Barrett's daughter, Arthur White, his wife, Harry Denham 
and Mr. Frank. We met Lemmie Quinn afterwards in a cafe. He said 
he had just been up to see Mr. Frank. (Cross examination waived). 
MISS EULA MAY FLOWERS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I did not work at the factory on Saturday, April 26th. I worked 
there Friday, the 25th, in the packing department. Mr. Schiff got from 
me the data for the financial sheet on Friday night at ten minutes to six. 

[104] 

It was the production for the entire week from my department. It covers 
all the different classes of work where the goods were finished. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I always turn those reports in Friday night or early Saturday morn- 
ing. They don't touch Friday's work. 
MISS MAGNOLIA KENNEDY, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have been working for the pencil factory for about four years, in 
the metal department. I drew my pay on Friday, April 25th, from Mr. 
Schiff at the pay window. Helen Ferguson was there when I went up 
there. I was behind her and had my hand on her shoulder. Mr. Frank 
was not there, Mr. Schiff gave Helen Ferguson her pay envelope. Helen 
Ferguson did not ask Mr. Schiff for Mary Phagan's money. I came out 



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right behind Helen Ferguson. We waited for Grace Hicks and then went 

downstairs. Helen didn't say anything about Mr. Frank at all. We 

went down stairs about five minutes to six. We saw Helen Ferguson 

start up Forsyth Street. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

On Monday, April 28th, Mr. Barrett called my attention to the hair 

which he found on the machine. It looked like Mary's hair. My machine 

was right next to Mary's. There is a good deal of water over there by 

Mr. Quinn's room. Mary's hair was a light brown, kind of sandy color. 

You could plainly see the dark spots and white spot over it ten or twelve 

feet away. Helen and Mary were the best of friends and were neighbors. 

Helen made mention that Mary was not there when we were paid off. I 

have never noticed any spots around the metal room. That's the first 

time I had ever seen anything like that. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I have never looked for spots before. It's a dirty floor, full of oil 

dirt. I don't know whose hair that was. Helen did not ask Mr. Schiff 

for Mary's money. She did not have any business going to Mr. Frank 

when Mr. Schiff was there paying off. She did not go in and ask Mr. 

Frank for Mary's money. I left with her. I went one way and she went 

another. 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank paid off sometimes. If there is any trouble about the 

amount of our money, we would go to anybody that was in the office. Mr. 

Frank was not paying off that day. 

WADE CAMPBELL, sworn for the Defendant. 

I have been working for the pencil factory for about a year and a 

half. I had a conversation with my sister, Mrs. Arthur White, on Mon- 

[105] 

day, April 28th. She told me that she had seen a negro sitting at the ele- 
vator shaft when she went in the factory at twelve o'clock on Saturday 
and that she came out at 12:30, she heard low voices, but couldn't see 
anybody. On April 26th, I got to the factory about 9:30. Mr. Frank was 
in his outer office. He was laughing and joking with people there, and 
joked with me. He thought I wanted to borrow some money. I stayed 
about five or ten minutes and left the factory. That was about 9:40. I 
have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan. On Tuesday after the 
murder I went up on the fourth floor with Mr. Frank. I did not see the 
negro Conley talk to him at all that time. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

My sister said she saw the negro when she went in the factory. When 
she heard the voices coming out, she was coming down the steps from the 
second floor. I saw the spots where they claim was blood, close to the 
girls' dressing room on second floor. I couldn't say whether it was blood 
or not. I deny that I ever said that my sister said she saw the negro on 
the box when she came out of the factory. He was sitting on a box be- 
tween the elevator shaft and the staircase. That looks like my signature. 
I don't know whether it is or not. Yes, I corrected certain statements in 



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that paper. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I went to Mr. Dorsey's office because he subpoenaed me. I thought 

I had to obey it. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell and the stenographer 

were there. All of them asked me questions. I signed a statement about 

twenty-one pages long. I have seen Jim Conley reading newspapers up 

on the fourth floor, twice since the murder. It is not unusual to see spots 

all over the metal room floor. 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Conley was sitting by the elevator when he was reading those papers, 

during working hours. The other time he was reading down at the rear 

end of the building. It was an extra, but I don't know what paper it was. 

I knew that he could write because I had seen him do it several times, 

with pen and ink. I don't know whether he was making up his report of 

boxes, but I have seen him writing. Yes, I have seen spots along the 

route from the ladies' closet to the elevator ever since I have been there. 

They have red varnish and red paint and such things like that that look 

like blood. I am sure there are spots all around in the metal room, but I 

won't say they look like the spots near the ladies' dressing room. 

LEMMIE QUINN, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am foreman of the metal department. Barrett pointed out to me 

where he claimed to have found blood spots on the metal room floor. He 

[106] 

asked me whether I thought that he (Barrett) would'get the reward if 
Frank were convicted. He told me that several people told him that he 
had a good chance to get the reward. He said a fellow told him that he 
would get $2,700 one time and $4,500 the other time. He mentioned that 
reward to me on several occasions. The floor of the metal room is very 
dirty. You could not tell at the alleged blood spots whether they were 
varnish or oil. We have blood spots quite frequently when people get 
their hands cut. I remember a man by the name of Gilbert was hurt in 
that room. He was carried towards the main office by the ladies' dress- 
ing room and sent to the hospital. He bled freely. That was about a 
year ago. About eight months ago a boy cut his hand pretty badly and 
was carried by the ladies' dressing room to the main office, right over 
the place where Barrett found the blood spots. His hand was bleeding. 
About a hundred women work in the factory. Haskoline is scattered all 
over the floor of the metal room. That floor has never been scrubbed 
since I have been to the factory. I could not tell what color hair it was 
Barrett found. There were only a half dozen strands in it. Chief Lan- 
ford took it. There is a place in the room where the girls dress their hair 
by a little gas jet which they use for heating a curling iron. It was about 
ten feet from the lathe where Barrett claims to have found the hair. If 
a breeze was blowing from this window from the west it would blow to 
where the girls were fixing their hair. The last time I saw Mary Phagan 
before the murder was Monday. She left about two o'clock. She left 
about two o'clock because we were out of material and she was laid off 
for the rest of the week. I have never seen Mr. Frank speak to her. I 



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went to the factory on April 26th, to see Mr. Schiff. He was not there. I 
often go to the factory on Saturdays and holidays. The street doors were 
open when I got there. I did not see Mary Phagan, nor Jim Conley, nor 
Monteen Stover. The doors to Mr. Frank's inner and outer office were 
open. The time I reached Mr. Frank's office was about 12:20. I saw Mr. 
Frank on Sunday at Bloomfield's undertaking establishment in the after- 
noon. He had on a black suit. On Saturday he had on a brown suit. 
There was no blood spots under the machine where Barrett claims to 
have found the hair. On Monday Mr. Frank had on a brown suit. There 
was no blood at the spot where Conley claims the body of the girl was 
found. It was perfectly dry there, there was no water on the floor. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I noticed the blood spots at the ladies' dressing room on Monday. I 
did not tell Mr. Payne and Mr. Starnes that I was not in the factory on 
April 26th. I told nobody that. Mr. Frank is not the first person to 
whom I told it. He did not tell me to keep quiet about it until he saw his 
lawyer. I did not tell the officers about it. Mr. Frank said he remem- 
bered my being at the factory, but did not remember the time. At the 
coroner's inquest I said it was pretty close to 12 o'clock when I got to 
Wolfsheimer's. I don't think it could have been as early as quarter af- 
ter twelve when I got to the factory. As to why I did not tell the officers, 

[107] 

they could have gotten it if they had asked me. I never mentioned it to 
Barrett either. I told Chief Lanford on the following Monday that I 
was at the factory. I told it to Frank on Tuesday. He said he would 
mention it to his lawyers. I told Frank I didn't like to be brought into it 
but if it would help him in any way I would do it. As to whether I would 
have mentioned it or not, was up to Mr. Frank. He afterwards told me 
that his lawyers advised him to mention it at the coroner's inquest. That 
was Tuesday afternoon. I told you in the statement I gave you that I 
could not swear positively as to the time I was at the factory. I said I 
got to the pool room between 12:20 and 12:30. I had been up in the fac- 
tory before I met Mrs. Freeman and Miss Hall at the Busy Bee. I was 
in the office and saw Mr. Frank between 12:20 and 12:25. At that time I 
made the statement to you that I was there between 12:00 and 12:25 I 
had reckoned the time down as I have now. The back door at the stair- 
way going up from the office floor to the top floor is fastened with a bar. 
It is not closed except on pay day. It is true that a man at the office door 
could easily lift bar and walk up, but a man could not come down to of- 
fice floor from above at all. Anybody could fix that bar in its place in 
half a minute. I told you in the detective 's office that I reckoned the 
time of my being in the factory from the time I left home and the desti- 
nation I went to, and I said I could not remember the stop at Wolfs- 
heimer 's which took ten or fifteen minutes, and that is why I reckoned it 
so positively. I left home I know at about a quarter to twelve. I looked 
at my watch. It takes twelve or fifteen minutes to walk to the factory. I 
got to Wolfsheimer's pretty close to 12 o'clock. I was there ten or fif- 
teen minutes. 



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RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

At the time the detectives and Mr. Dorsey talked to me about the 
murder, I overlooked the fact that I had been to Wolfsheimer 's. My wife 
called my attention to it when I got home. I mentioned this matter to 
my father and my wife before I ever mentioned it to Mr. Frank. Mr. 
Frank did not tell me not to mention it to anybody. If a detective had 
asked me I would have told him what I knew about it. At the Coroner's 
inquest I said it could have been as early as twenty minutes after 12 that 
I got to the factory, because I had reckoned my time down from leaving 
home and the number of steps, and I said it must have been between 
12:20 and 12:25. 

HARRY DENHAM, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I was paid off Fri- 
day, April 25th. I came back Saturday to do some work. Mr. Darley 
asked me to come back. I had to work on the machinery when it was not 
running. That was the only time I could do it. I got there about 7:30. 
Mr. Holloway was there when I got there. Between 12 and 1 o'clock I 
was working on the varnish machine. We were hammering. We worked 

[108] 

until ten minutes after 3. We began to take an old partition out and put 
in a new one about 12 o'clock. It took a good deal of hammering; we 
were making a racket up there. May Barrett was the first person to 
come upstairs that day. She came about quarter past eleven. Stayed 
about three-quarters of an hour. It was after twelve when she left. Mrs. 
Freeman and Miss Hall were the next to come upstairs and stayed about 
fifteen minutes. They got a coat and went down. Mrs. White came up- 
stairs about 12:30 to see her husband. She had a good long talk with 
him. She was still upstairs when Mr. Frank came up. He told Mr. and 
Mrs. White that he was going to dinner and would like to close the doors. 
He stayed up there just long enough to tell us that and then went down- 
stairs. Mrs. White went right down behind Mr. Frank. I never heard 
the elevator run that day. I was up on the fourth floor all day. I can see 
wheels turning on that floor. There were no noises in the factory that 
day, excepting street noises. When the elevator stops it makes no noise; 
it shakes the floor a little when it stops. You can't hear anything except 
shaking the building when it starts. You can hear the elevator better 
when the machinery is not running. If the wheels had been running that 
day I could have seen them from where I was. When I left at ten min- 
utes after three, I saw Mr. Frank. Mr. White and I came down together. 
Before we went out, Mr. Frank came upstairs about three o'clock and 
asked was we getting out, and we told him we were getting ready to go 
right now. We were washing right then. When we came out we saw Mr. 
Frank at his desk in his office writing. Mr. White borrowed $2.00 from 
him. He did not look nervous or unusual. You can look down from the 
landing on the third floor and see whether anything is being put in or 
taken out of the elevator on the office floor. White and I on the fourth 
floor could have gone anywhere in the building that day. It was open to 
US. 



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CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We were working about 40 feet from the elevator. There were cro- 
cus sacks upon the floor where we were working. The first time Mr. 
Frank came upstairs was about ten minutes to one. At the coroner's in- 
quest I said I wasn't certain of the time. The second time he came up 
was about three o'clock. We had finished our work and were washing up 
and getting ready to go. I am not certain of the time he came up the first 
time. I think it was 10 minutes to one. That's about the time Mrs. White 
left. He didn't say he was going right then. He said he wanted to go 
out. The wind was blowing strong that day and slapping the blinds 
backward and forward. There were no other noises inside the building. 
We stayed up on the fourth floor all day except one time when we went 
down about a quarter past eleven to have Mr. Holloway put some pieces 
on the band saw. It was a mistake when I told at the coroner's inquest 
that I had not left the fourth floor at all that day. A person could have 
gone in the building and gone out and we not have known it. We were 
knocking and hammering all the time about midway of the building. It 

[109] 

might have been a good deal of noise on the office floor and we would not 
have known it. I said at the coroner's inquest that Mr. Frank had a 
habit of rubbing his hands together. We left Mr. Frank in the factory 
when we left there. I saw some spots Monday they said was blood. 
MINOLA McKNIGHT (c), sworn for the Defendant. 
I work for Mrs. Selig. I cook for her. Mr. and Mrs. Frank live with 
Mr. and Mrs. Selig. His wife is Mrs. Selig's daughter. I cooked break- 
fast for the family on April 26th. Mr. Frank finished breakfast a little 
after seven o'clock. Mr. Frank came to dinner about 20 minutes after 
one that day. That was not the dinner hour, but Mrs. Frank and Mrs. 
Selig were going off on the two o'clock car. They were already eating 
when Mr. Frank came in. My husband, Albert McKnight, wasn't in the 
kitchen that day between one and two o'clock at all. Standing in the 
kitchen door you can not see the mirror in the dining room. If you move 
up to the north end of the kitchen where you can see the mirror, you can't 
see the dining room table. My husband wasn't there all that day. Mr. 
Frank left that day sometime after two o'clock. I next saw him at half 
past six at supper. I left about eight o'clock. Mr. Frank was still at 
home when I left. He took supper with the rest of the family. After this 
happened the detectives came out and arrested me and took me to Mr. 
Dorsey's office, where Mr. Dorsey, my husband and another man were 
there. I was working at the Selig's when they come and got me. They 
tried to get me to say that Mr. Frank would not allow his wife to sleep 
that night and that he told her to get up and get his gun and let him kill 
himself, and that he made her get out of bed. They had my husband there 
to bulldoze me, claiming that I had told him that. I had never told him 
anything of the kind. I told them right there in Mr. Dorsey's office that 
it was a lie. Then they carried me down to the station house in the patrol 
wagon. They came to me for another statement about half past eleven 
or twelve o'clock that night and made me sign something before they 



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turned me loose, but it wasn't true. I signed it to get out of jail, because 
they said they would not let me out. It was all written out for me before 
they made me sign it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I signed that statement (State's Exhibit " J "), but I didn't tell you 
some of the things you got in there. I didn't say he left home about three 
o'clock. I said somewhere about two. I did not say he was not there at 
one o'clock. Mr. Graves and Mr. Pickett, of Beck & Gregg Hardware 
Co., came down to see me. A detective took me to your (Mr. Dorsey's) 
office. My husband was there and told me that I had told him certain 
things. Yes, I denied it. Yes, I wept and cried and stuck to it. When 
they first brought me out of jail, they said they did not want anything 
else but the truth, then they said I had to tell a lot of lies and I told them 
I would not do it. That man sitting right there (pointing to Mr. Camp- 

[110] 

bell) and a whole lot of men wanted me to tell lies. They wanted me to 
witness to what my husband was saying. My husband tried to get me to 
tell lies. They made me sign that statement, but it was a lie. If Mr. 
Frank didn't eat any dinner that day I ain't sitting in this chair. Mrs. 
Selig never gave me no money. The statement that I signed is not the 
truth. They told me if I didn't sign it they were going to keep me locked 
up. That man there (indicating) and that man made me sign it. Mr. 
Graves and Mr. Pickett made me sign it. They did not give me any more 
money after this thing happened. One week I was paid two weeks' wages. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

None of the things in that statement is true. It's all a lie. My wages 
never have been raised since this thing happened. They did not tell me 
to keep quiet. They always told me to tell the truth and it couldn't hurt. 
EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am Mr. Frank's father-in-law. My wife and I live with Mr. Frank 
and his wife. The kitchen in our house is next to the dining room. There 
is a small passage way between them. The sideboard in the dining room 
is in the same position now, as it has always been. Mr. Frank took break- 
fast before I did on April 26th and left the house before I breakfasted. I 
got back home to dinner about 1:15. My wife and Mrs. Frank were eat- 
ing then. They told me in the morning to come home a little sooner, that 
they wanted to go to Grand Opera that afternoon and have dinner a little 
earlier than usual, and I came home a little earlier. Mr. Frank came in 
after I did, about 1:20. There was nothing unusual about him. No 
scratches or bruises about him. He sat down to his meal. The ladies left 
us while he was still eating. I don't know what Mr. Frank did after din- 
ner, I went out to the chicken yard. Mr. Frank was still in the hall when 
I got back. I laid down and went to sleep. I did not see him when he left. 
I saw him about 6:30 that evening. Mrs. Frank and Mrs. Selig had not 
yet gotten back. They came in a short while. We ate supper about seven 
o'clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him at supper. We finished 
supper about 7:25. Mr. Frank sat in the hall and read. A party of our 
friends came to the house and played cards after supper. Frank and his 



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wife did not play. They do not play poker. They play bridge. He was 
reading in the hall while we were playing. He came in one time while we 
were playing and said he read a story about a baseball umpire's decision 
and he was laughing. Frank answered the doorbell several times that 
evening when the guests came. He and his wife went to bed before the 
company left, about 10 or 10:30. He came to the door and told us good- 
night and went upstairs. His wife went up shortly afterwards. Our 
party broke up about half past 11. I did not hear the telephoning early 
Sunday morning. I saw no scratches on Frank Sunday morning. 

[HI] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have never seen the servants move that sideboard. I say it was 
about 1 :20 when Mr. Frank came home to lunch, because I left town about 
1:10. The car reaches our corner between 1:10 and 1:20. Igothomea 
little after one. About 1:10. Mr. Frank may have laid down and taken 
a nap after dinner. I don't know. I laid down and took a nap. Mr. 
Frank was gone when I woke up. I have heard Mr. Frank frequently 
call up the factory from his home at night. I talked very little with Mr. 
Frank on Sunday when he got back home. I don't recall any conversa- 
tion I had with him relative to the murder. I did not pay any attention 
to anything he said about the murder at dinner time. I have no recollec- 
tion of telling coroner's jury that he did not leave before I got up. I 
don't know what I told coroner about talking to Frank that day. I knew 
that my son-in-law was superintendent of factory and that a girl was 
found killed there and I did not refer to the subject that day. I don't re- 
member saying that Frank didn't say anything about it when he came 
home. I ate dinner with him. I remember stating at coroner's jury that 
Frank came home and didn't say a word about it all day to me. 
MRS. EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am Mrs. Frank's mother. Mr. and Mrs. Frank have been living 
with us two years. The sideboard is in the same position it always has 
been except when we sweep under it. We had lunch on April 26th after 
1 o'clock, about ten minutes past one. Mr. Frank came about twenty 
minutes past one while we were eating. He sat down with us and ate. Mrs. 
Frank and I left before he did. We left about half past one. He was still 
eating at the table. After the opera, while we were on the street car, 
passing Jacob's drug store we saw Mr. Frank at about 6:10. 1 happened 
to look up at the clock and saw it was 6:10. We stopped at my sister's, 
Mrs. Loeb before going home. Mr. Frank was there when we got 
there. We saw nothing unusual about him. No scratches, bruises, 
wounds or marks. We got home about half past six. We sat down to 
supper about a quarter to seven. Mr. Frank ate with us. We finished at 
a quarter past seven. We played cards that night in the dining room 
with a party of friends. Mr. Frank and his wife did not play. They do 
not play poker. They play bridge. He was sitting in the hall reading. 
Mr. Frank answered the doorbell and let in some of the guests. He came 
in once while we were playing cards to tell us about a joke that he had 
read about an umpire and he laughed out very heartily. He went to bed 



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between ten and ten-thirty. He told us all good-night before going. Mrs. 
Frank followed a few minutes afterwards. We played cards until about 
twelve. I did not hear the telephone ring next morning. It did not wake 
me up. I saw Mr. Frank next day about 1 1 o'clock. I saw no blood spots 
or marks or bruises or cuts about him. I think he was arrested on 
Tuesday. 

[112] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am not mistaken about seeing Mr. Frank about 1 :20 on Memorial 
Day. We were eating dinner when he came in. Mr. Frank got home 
about 1 1 o'clock Sunday. He told us he had been sent for to come to 
town. He spoke of a crime having been committed. I asked him what 
had happened. I don't remember that he told me about the crime. He 
did not seem unconcerned about it. I said at coroner's that I thought he 
seemed unconcerned about it. I don't remember his remarking about 
the youth of the girl or the brutality of the crime. He didn't describe 
any wounds. He didn't give any theory as to how it happened. He was 
anxious as to how it happened. I have forgotten what suits Mr. Frank 
wore Saturday, Sunday and Monday. I think I said before the coroner 
that he wore the same suit Saturday, Sunday and Monday. But I was 
mistaken. I don't remember saying before coroner whether Frank evi- 
denced any curiosity or advanced any theory about it or not. I knew he 
wore one suit during the week and a different one on Sunday, and my im- 
pression was that on that Sunday he wore the same one. I don't think 
Mr. Frank mentioned the name of the girl that was killed on Sunday. 
The first that I knew of it was when I saw her name in the paper the 
next morning. The subject was mentioned at the dinner table on Sunday. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

My health is bad and I did not care to hear much of the facts of the 
crime at the time. I was operated on the next day. Mr. Frank spared 
my feelings. These are the clothes Mr. Frank wore on April 26th (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 49). 

MISS HELEN KERNS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work for the Dodson Medicine Company as stenographer. My 
father works for Montag. I took shorthand under Professor Briscoe 
last winter. I have seen Mr. Frank in his factory. I went there with 
Professor Briscoe to get a job. I didn't get the position. I was working 
on the 26th day of April for Bennett Printing Company. That day I got 
off about 12 o'clock. I then went around in town to the different stores 
and did some trading. I had an appointment to meet a girl at 1:15 at the 
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets, at Jacobs' Drug Store. About 
5 minutes after one I came out of Kress' Store on Whitehall Street. I 
looked at the clock in front of Freeman's Jewelry Store. I immediately 
went to Jacobs' corner. I had been standing there about five minutes 
and I turned around and saw Mr. Frank standing there right up against 
the building at the corner of Alabama and Whitehall Streets. I do not 
know how long he had been there. That was about ten minutes after one. 
After I saw him I waited about ten minutes until my friend came. She 



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was a little behind time. She came about twenty minutes after one. I 

[113] 

read about this tragedy about the middle of the week. I then recalled 
seeing him about that place and told my father. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Yes, there was a large crowd on the street that day. I had been 
standing there about five minutes when I turned around and saw Frank. 
It was not packed and jammed at that time, not up against the building. 
The procession did not come along until almost three o'clock. There was 
plenty of room on that corner. I stood there from five minutes after one 
until twenty minutes after one. After I met my friend we went back to 
Kress'. I did not speak to Mr. Frank. He was standing up against the 
building up Alabama Street. It was not real crowded up Alabama Street. 
You could not stand in the middle of the sidewalk. I got a clear view of 
Mr. Frank. I don't think he saw me. I don't think he would have recog- 
nized me because he sees so many faces every day he would not know 
mine. I had only met him once. I recognized him. I can't be mistaken 
about the time I saw him because I looked at the clock just before I got 
there. When my friend met me we went around the corner. The clock 
stood twenty minutes after one. Kress' store did not close at 12, be- 
cause I was in there after 12. I am sure of that. I was watching the 
clock because I had an appointment at a quarter after one. I left Kress' 
at five minutes after one and went down Whitehall Street to Jacob's cor- 
ner. Whitehall Street was badly crowded. It didn't take me more than 
a minute or a minute and a half to walk down to the corner. It was only 
a few steps. There was no one standing between Mr. Frank and myself 
on Alabama Street. 

MRS. A. P. LEVY, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live right across the street from where Mr. Frank lives. I am not 
a relation of his either by blood or marriage. I saw him get off a car on 
Memorial Day between one and two o'clock. I was dressing to go to the 
matinee and was watching the cars as they passed to look out for my son 
who was late to dinner and saw Mr. Frank get off the car and cross the 
street to his home. I had a clock on my dresser and also one in the din- 
ing room, and I was hurrying to meet a friend at 2 o'clock, and I wanted 
to see a sick friend before going to matinee. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I noticed that Mr. Frank got off at 1:20, because I was looking at the 
clock. I was watching the car for my son. I had already had lunch. I 
could not wait for him. He tried to get me over the phone but could not 
reach me. The reason I knew it was that time I was looking at my clock 
and noticing the cars as they passed and my son had not come yet. That 
was the only reason I would have noticed it. 

[114] 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

My children on Memorial Day instead of coming home at 12:20 or 
12:30, came home at 1:30. 



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MRS. M. G. MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant. 

1 live in Athens. On April 26th, I was at 387 Washington Street at 

2 o'clock, at the residence of my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer. Mrs. Frank 
is my niece by marriage. I am no kin to Mr. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank 
about 2 o'clock on April 26th. He was going up Washington Street to- 
wards town when I first saw him. I remembered it was about 2 o'clock, 
because my son David was going to the matinee and he had to leave home 
before 2, and he had just left a few minutes when I saw Mr. Frank. I was 
on the front porch when I saw him. He came up just to the front porch. 
He greeted me and asked me about my people at home. We carried on a 
casual conversation. I noticed nothing unusual about him. I noticed no 
scratches or marks or any nervousness about him. He walked up Wash- 
ington Street to the corner of Glenn and caught the Washington Street 
car going to town at Glenn Street. My son Jerome, my nephew Julian 
Loeb and my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer were also there and saw him. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He had not seen me for several weeks. He didn't know I was in the 
city, and when he saw me there on the porch he came over to speak to me. 
387 Washington Street is three doors above Georgia Avenue. I saw him 
take the car at the corner of Glenn and Washington Street. 
JEROME MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live in Athens. I was in Atlanta on April 26th. I took dinner at 
Mrs. Wolfsheimer's residence at 387 Washington Street. I saw Mr. 
Frank upon that day between five minutes to 2 and 2 o'clock. I know it 
was that time because I had an engagement with a young lady and I had 
a watch in my hand most of the time. My brother Dave had just left for 
the opera when Mr. Frank came up. When I first saw him he was going 
toward the right hand corner of Washington Street and Georgia Avenue, 
going up Georgia Avenue. I saw him and called him and when he saw my 
mother standing on the porch he came over and spoke to her. He stood 
on the steps of the porch, he stood there just a few minutes until the next 
car came. I noticed absolutely nothing unusual about him. No scratches, 
bruises, marks and no nervousness. He ran up to the corner of Glenn and 
Washington Streets and caught the Washington Street car there going 
to town. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I had my watch in my hand about the time I saw Mr. Frank. I prac- 
tice law. 

[115] 

MRS. HENNIE WOLFSHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am the aunt of Mrs. Frank. I live at 387 Washington Street, the 
third house from the corner of Georgia Avenue. On April 26th, I saw 
Mr. Frank in front of my house. It was about 2 o'clock. We had fin- 
ished dinner which we ate at half past one. I was not on the porch when 
he came up but I walked out on the porch after he came. I did not see 
him catch the car as I was called in the house before he left. I saw noth- 
ing unusual about him. No nervousness or bruises or scratches. I saw 
no stains on his clothes, no marks or tears of any kind. 



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CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The time is fixed in my mind because we ate dinner at half past one 
and we had just finished. I was not looking for any scratches or bruises, 
but I certainly would have seen them if they had been there. I was close 
enough to him to have seen him. 
JULIAN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live at 380 Washington Street, across the street from the Wolfs- 
heimer residence. I am a cousin of Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank on 
April 26th in front of the Wolfsheimer residence. I was there when he 
came by. It was between 1:50 and 2 o'clock. He was talking to Mrs. 
Michael and Mr. Jerome Michael and was inviting them to attend a meet- 
ing of the B'nai B 'rith lodge on the next day which was Sunday. He was 
president of that lodge. He left and walked towards town up Washing- 
ton Street towards Glenn. I didn't see him catch the car. 
COHEN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant. 

I was on the car with Mr. Frank going back to town on April 26th 
after lunch. I caught the car at Georgia Avenue and Washington Street. 
He caught the car at Glenn and Washington Street which is one block 
nearer town. That was about 2 o'clock. It was a Washington Street car 
which goes straight up Washington Street to the Capitol and turns down 
Hunter. We sat together on the same seat in the car. Mr. Frank got off 
the car about two or three minutes before I did. He got off in front of 
the Capitol at about 2:10. The car was blockaded by the crowd which 
was watching the parade. Mr. Frank went down Hunter Street. There 
was nothing unusual about him. No marks, or scratches or spots on him. 
He had on a brown suit and a derby. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank was sitting next to the window. I know Mr. Hinchey. I 
did not recognize him as he passed our car in the machine but I recog- 
nized his machine. It was going down the street. I recognized it by the 

[116] 

dark color. It passed right in front of the car so close as to hit the car 
and that's what called it to my attention. The top of the machine was 
up and the sides were open. The car was a dark maroon color and seats 
from four to seven passengers. I don't know the number of it. I just 
saw a dark maroon car. I found out afterwards that it was Mr. Hinchey. 
I only noticed that particular automobile because it ran up in front of 
the car and the car hit it and nearly turned it over. The accident oc- 
curred right at us. There was no jolt to the street car. It was going too 
slow. They just came together and scraped. 
H. J. HINCHEY, sworn for the Defendant. 

I have known Mr. Frank between four and five years. I am mechan- 
ical engineer for the South Atlantic Blow Pipe Co. I saw Mr. Frank on 
April 26th opposite the main entrance to the Capitol on Washington 
Street. I was driving an automobile. He was on the street car coming 
down Washington Street going to town. I saw him but did not speak to 
him. It was between 2 and 2:15. As to how I knew that was the time af- 
ter this matter came up I experimented to see just what time it was I 



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saw him on the car, and I have gone over my movements just as I did 
them on that day, and the first time I experimented I got to the Capitol 
five minutes past two, and the second time I got there at eight minutes 
past two, and the third time exactly at two o'clock. I came very near col- 
liding with the car in front of the Capitol, as I drove around in front of 
the Capitol. This car Mr. Frank was on rolled up in front of me. As I 
looked up at the car I saw Mr. Frank sitting in the front end of the car. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I saw him only for a moment. I was too much occupied in trying to 
get out of the way of cars and vehicles. The crowd was very thick. I 
have been to see Mr. Frank once in jail. I mentioned to him that I saw 
him that day. Mr. Frank and I were only business friends. We have 
had pleasant business transactions and also controversies. I did not go 
to jail to talk it over with him. I went there because I had been knowing 
him for five or six years and was interested in him, because he was im- 
plicated in the case. We were not personal friends, but have had a great 
many business dealings with each other and I naturally felt an interest 
in this matter. 

MISS REBECCA CARSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the National Pencil Co. I have been there over three years. 
I work on the fourth floor. I am forelady of the sorting department. I 
have from thirteen to fifteen girls under me. At times I have heard the 
elevator running when the machinery in the factory was not running. It 
makes a noticeable noise. You can notice the vibration of the building 
and you can notice the ropes of the elevator running, and you can hear 

[117] 
118 

the cables of the elevator knocking. On Friday, April 25th, I got my pay 
about 5:30 from the office. On April 26th I saw Mr. Frank looking at the 
parade in front of Rich's between 2:20 and 2:25. He spoke to me. I saw 
him again at ten minutes to three going into Jacobs' Pharmacy at the 
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Street. I looked at the clock at that 
time. On Monday morning I said to Jim Conley, "Where were you on 
Saturday? Were you in the factory?" He said, "I was so drunk I don't 
know where I was or what I did." And Snowball, who was standing 
there, said, "I can prove where I was. I also overheard a conversation 
that he had with my mother when he said Mr. Frank was just as innocent 
as an angel; and when my mother said "The murderer will be the negro, 
Mrs. White saw sitting on a box at the foot of the stairs," Jim dropped 
his broom quick and didn't finish sweeping. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He made that remark to me about 8 o'clock Monday morning and I 
went right back and told my mother of it. The elevator makes enough 
noise to know it is running. You don't notice it when the machinery is 
running. You wouldn't know whether it was running or not unless your 
attention is directed to it. I had looked at the clock five minutes before I 
saw Mr. Frank in front of Rich's. I had just looked at the clock also be- 
fore I saw him going into Jacobs'. I am certain of the times I saw him. 



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That was the exact time by the clock. I get $10.00 a week. Last time my 
salary was raised it was raised in January. There has been no raise 
since then. I had heard that some of the sweepers sometimes stay on 
Saturday afternoons to sweep. I didn't know it. I just asked him if he 
was there at the factory Saturday afternoon. He never before admitted 
being drunk to me before. Nobody suspected Jim of the murder at that 
time. I told my mother of it because I tell her everything. I told Mr. 
Darley about it. I don't remember when I told him. It was before Con- 
ley was arrested on Thursday. I told Mr. Rosser when he was at the 
factory. That was after Jim was arrested. I did not see the red spot in 
the metal room on Monday. I didn't go in the metal room until Tuesday. 
I didn't see it then, because I wasn't looking at the floor. 
MRS. E. M. CARSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked at the pencil factory three years. Rebecca Carson is my 
daughter. I am a widow. I have seen blood spots around the ladies' 
dressing room three or four times. I was at the factory Friday morning. 
I left about 12:45. I saw Jim Conley on Tuesday after the murder. He 
was sweeping around my table, I said, "Well, Jim, they haven't got you 
yet," and he says, "NO." On Wednesday I said the same thing and he 
answered the same thing. On Thursday when I said that to him again 
he said, "No, I ain't done nothing." I said, "Jim, you know Mr. Frank 
never did that," and he says, "No, Mr. Frank is as innocent as you is, 

[118] 

and I know you is." I said, "Jim, whenever they find the murderer of 
Mary Phagan it's going to be that nigger that was sitting near the ele- 
vator when Mrs. White went upstairs." He laid his broom down then 
and went out. I could not believe Conley on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

My daughter and I work on the fourth floor. Mr. Frank was up on 
the fourth floor Tuesday between nine and eleven o'clock. Everybody in 
the department was around there at that time. I don't know whether 
any of them heard-the conversation between me and Mr. Frank then. I 
saw both Mr. Frank and Jim Conley on the fourth floor on Tuesday. I 
did not see Mr. Frank whisper to Conley. Mr. Frank never said a word 
to any of us about sticking to him. He said it was a deplorable thing lit- 
tle Mary being killed. I have seen blood in the dressing room around the 
lockers and some around the mirror. I have seen girls up there mash 
their fingers on the machines. I have seen blood in the sink in the toilet 
room and on the machines where they cut their fingers. I saw a spot as 
big as my hand sometime last year on the fourth floor near a garbage 
can. It looked like blood to me. I have seen spots about as big as my 
finger, different spots up on the fourth floor. I have seen girls once or 
twice come in with their fingers mashed come into the toilet room and go 
to the sink after they had mashed their fingers. I don't know when I 
heard that Mrs. White said that she had seen a negro sitting on the box. 
I think I read it in the paper sometime that week. The big spot of blood 
I was talking about was occasioned by the girls whose sickness was on 
them. I have never seen Mr. Frank or anybody else have anybody down 



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at the office at any time drinking beer or doing anything of the sort. I 
did not go down and see blood on second floor near dressing room. 
MISS MARY PIRK, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am one of the foreladies working at the National Pencil Co. I am 
at the head of the polishing department. I have been there about five 
years. I talked with Jim Conley Monday morning after the murder. I 
accused him of the murder. He took his broom and walked right out of 
the office and I have never seen him since. His character for truth and 
for veracity is bad. I would not believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I suspected Jim as early as Monday April 28th. I did not report it 
to Mr. Frank then. I don't know why I didn't. I knew that Gantt and 
Newt Lee and Mr. Frank had been arrested. Yes, I have never said any- 
thing about it to anybody. I suspected Jim because he looked and acted 
so different. I told Mr. Arnold and Mr. Rosser about it when they asked 
me about it. That was after Jim was arrested. Jim acted very peculiar 

[119] 

but I thought best not to say anything about it. I knew the company was 
anxious to get the murderer but I just didn't mention it. I don't know 
why. I mentioned it to several of the girls standing around, Miss Den- 
ham, Miss McCord, Mrs. Johns and several others. I accused Jim be- 
fore I saw the blood at the ladies' dressing room. It was all smeared 
over with some kind of white stuff. It covered about two feet in area. I 
mentioned it to the girls before Jim was arrested. I am not sure whether 
it was before or after. It was after the coroner's inquest. I have seen 
several spots in the factory that looked like that spot many times. All 
kinds of spots. I have seen spots before that looked like that. I don't 
exactly know when. My opinion is that Mr. Frank is a perfect gentle- 
man. I always found him to be one in my dealings with him. I have 
never heard any of the girls say anything about him. I have never heard 
of a single thing immoral that he did do in those five years. I have never 
heard of his going in the girls' dressing room. I have never heard of his 
slapping them as he would go by. I have never heard Mr. Frank talk to 
Mary. I have never heard of the time Mr. Frank had her off in the cor- 
ner there when she was trying to go back to work. 
MISS IORA SMALL, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked on the fourth floor of the pencil factory for five years. I 
saw Jim Conley on Tuesday. He was worrying me to get money from me 
to buy a newspaper and then he would come and ask me for copies of the 
paper before I would get through reading them. They were extras. He 
would even get two of the same edition. He would take it and run over 
there and sit on a box by the elevator and read it. He can read all right. 
He had on an old Norfolk coat with a belt around it and it buttoned just 
as tight around his neck as it could be. Before that he had gone around 
there all open and loose and as slipshod as he could be. I could not tell 
whether he was wearing a shirt or not because his coat fastened up so 
tight. He told me Mr. Frank is just as innocent as I am and he says, 
"God knows I was noways around this factory on Saturday." I didn't 



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see Mr. Frank talking to Jim anywhere in the factory on Tuesday. I 
have never seen him talk to that nigger in my life. I have never been 
down in Mr. Frank's office after hours, drinking or doing anything wrong 
at any time. I have known Conley for two years. His general reputa- 
tion for truth and veracity is bad. I don't know of any nigger on earth 
that I would believe on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I would not believe Snowball on oath. I would not believe any nig- 
ger. I got a fifty-cent raise in salary about four months ago. I have got 
no raise since Mr. Frank has been locked up. It was before this murder 
took place. I did not see Mrs. Carson talk to Jim on Tuesday or Wed- 
nesday. She worked in one end of the building and I worked in the other. 

[120] 

I saw Mr. Frank and Miss Carson talking on business between eight and 
nine o'clock on Tuesday. They stopped right in front of my machine. 
Mr. Frank went down stairs and Miss Carson went on back to her work. 
He used to come up there frequently. Conley was standing at the eleva- 
tor. He was standing with his hand on a truck. He was not sleeping. 
He must have seen me and Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not see Conley. 
When Mr. Frank went down the steps Conley was still standing at the 
elevator. Conley was asking me for newspapers all during the morning 
every time they would holler" extra." He would come to me. That was 
after Mr. Frank had gone. That continued all day Tuesday and Wed- 
nesday. I didn't buy any extras on Monday. I bought four before noon 
on Tuesday. The elevator makes a right smart noise. Shakes the whole 
building. Any body in the world can tell it is running if the machinery is 
not running; but you can't notice it much unless you are right close to 
the elevator. Some of us went back in the metal room one day to see if 
we could see any blood spots. Mrs. Carson and Mrs. Thompson I think 
were with us. Curiosity led us down there. We saw where the floor had 
been chipped up. Saw something that looked like white face powder 
around the chipped up place. Looked like some of the girls had pow- 
dered their faces and spilt the powder. There were two or three spots, 
some the size of a nickle and some the size of a quarter. The floor was 
very dirty all over. 

MISS JULIA FUSS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I have never known 
anything wrong or immoral to be going on in Mr. Frank's office. I talked 
with Jim Conley Wednesday morning after the murder. He was sweep- 
ing around there and asked me to see the newspaper. As he read it he 
kinder grinned. He told me he believed Mr. Frank was just as innocent 
as the angels from Heaven. I know his general character. He was never 
known to tell the truth. I would not believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I saw the dark red spots by the water cooler in the metal room where 
they had chipped up something. Something white was dropped all over 
it. The spots did not look like they had been smeared over. Looked like 
a plain drop of blood. I think it was paint because there was paint used 



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there all the time. They asked me soon after the murder about the gen- 
eral character of Frank. They asked me if I knew anything against his 
character and I told them no. They generally spoke well of him. They 
always spoke good of him. I have always heard him spoken of in the 
highest terms. I have never heard him accused of any act of immorality 
or familiarity with the girls in the factory. Jim Conley got two papers 
from me on Tuesday and Wednesday. I bought them. Jim always 
seemed to be kind of nervous or half drunk or something. He did not 

[121] 

arouse my suspicions until after he began to read the papers and grin 
about them and comment on them. I didn't see Mr. Frank speak to Con- 
ley on Tuesday. Conley was not there. I am sure of that. Mr. Frank 
came up there twice, once at 9 and again in 15 or 20 minutes. He came 
around to see if everything was in good working order. He spoke to Miss 
Carson and Mr. Darley and to a little boy. And then went on down stairs. 
He came back in about fifteen or twenty minutes to see if everything was 
going on alright. He spoke to Miss Carson again about the work. He 
always came upstairs to see if everything was going on all right. 
EMMA BEARD (c), sworn for the Defendant. 
I am Mr. Schiffs servant. On April 26th somebody called Mr. Schiff 
on the telephone. I answered the telephone. It was about half past ten. 
It sounded like a boy's voice. It said, " I Tell Mr. Schiff Mr. Frank wanted 
him at the office." Mr. Schiff was asleep at the time. I waked him up 
and he said, "Tell Mr. Frank I will be there as soon as I can get dressed." 
And I repeated the message to the boy and told him what Mr. Schiff said. 
Then Mr. Schiff went back to sleep again. The same voice called up Mr. 
Schiff again about eleven o'clock. Said he wanted Mr. Schiff to come 
down to the office. Mr. Schiff told me to tell him he would be there as soon 
as he could get dressed and I told him what Mr. Schiff said. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been in Mr. Schiffs house about seven years. On Saturdays 
and holidays Mr. Schiff generally sleeps. Sometimes he goes to the fac- 
tory when I wake him up. He never gets up unless I wake him. Mr. 
Schiff told me sometime afterwards he was glad I did not wake him up 
that day. I know it was eleven o'clock when he called up the second time, 
because the clock was striking. They didn't say what Mr. Frank wanted 
him for. 

ANNIE HFXON (c), sworn for the Defendant. 
I am Mrs. Ursenbach's servant. Mr. Frank called up on the tele- 
phone about half past one on April 26th. I told him Mr. Ursenbach was 
not in and he said "Tell Mr. Charlie I can't go to the ball game this af- 
ternoon." I told Mrs. Ursenbach about it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been working for Mrs. Ursenbach two years. Mr. Frank and 
his wife came over to Mrs. Ursenbach's on Sunday after we had break- 
fast about nine o'clock. They come over there every Sunday. I didn't 
pay any attention to what they talked about that morning. They were 
just laughing and talking like they always do. Yes, he laughed. They 



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were all laughing together. He wasn't nervous or excited so far as I 

[122] 

could see. Nothing unusual about him. Don't know what they were 
laughing about. 

J. C. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I was at Montag Brothers on April 26th. I saw Mr. Frank in the 
office of Montag Bros., in the morning of that day. I couldn't give you 
the exact time. I work at Montag Bros. 
ALONZO MANN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am office boy at the National Pencil Company. I began working 
there April 1,1913. I sit sometimes in the outer office and stand around 
in the outer hall. I left the factory at half past eleven on April 26th. 
When I left there Miss Hall, the stenographer from Montag 's, was in the 
office with Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank told me to phone to Mr. Schiff and tell 
him to come down. I telephoned him, but the girl answered the phone 
and said he hadn't got up yet. I telephoned once. I worked there two 
Saturday afternoons of the weeks previous to the murder and stayed 
there until half past three or four. Frank was always working during 
that time. I never saw him bring any women into the factory and drink 
with them. I have never seen Dalton there. On April 26th, I saw Hollo- 
way, Irby, McCrary and Darley at the factory. I didn't see Quinn. I 
don't remember seeing Corinthia Hall, Mrs. Freeman, Mrs. White, Gra- 
ham, Tillander, or Wade Campbell I left there 11:30. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

When Mr. Frank came that morning, he went right on into the office, 
and was at work there and stayed there. He went out once. Don't know 
how long he stayed out. 
M. 0. NIX, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am credit man for Montag Bros, and bookkeeper. I have charge of 
the bookkeeping and documents and papers of the National Pencil Com- 
pany. I am familiar with Mr. Frank's handwriting. These financial 
sheets beginning with May 22, 1912, and ending May 24, 1913 (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 9), are in Mr. Frank's handwriting. The eleven items be- 
ginning with order No. 7187 running through No. 7197, appearing on 
pages 56 and 57 of the house order book (Defendant's Exhibit 12) are in 
Mr. Frank's handwriting. These entries below that are in Miss Hattie 
Hall's handwriting. I employed Miss Hattie Hall as my stenographer. 
Mr. Montag and Mr. Frank had nothing to do with it. I raised her wages 
on first of August, because I promised her that when she first came here. 
These eleven requisition sheets (Defendant's Exhibit, 25 to 35 inclusive) 
are in Mr. Frank's handwriting. I saw Mr. Frank on the morning of 
April 26th, at Montag's. He asked me to allow Miss Hattie Hall, my 
stenographer, to go over to the factory to assist him as his stenographer 

[123] 

was away and he was piled up with work. And I told him I didn't think 
she should go until she finished Mr. Montag's mail. He said something 
then about her coming over in the afternoon, and I said I didn't think she 



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ought to work over there as it wasn't her work, and I told her not to do it, 
but I told her if she got through with Mr. Montag's mail she could go 
over there that morning and help him, if she could assist him in anyway. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have never seen Frank write any of the documents which I say are 
in his handwriting. I have seen him write. I don't know their system of 
doing work down at the factory. This order could not have been received 
on April 22nd (Defendant's Exhibit 27). The signature of H. G. Schiff 
on the requisition sheets (Defendant's Exhibits 25 to 35 inclusive) means 
that he checked it when the order was filed. I have been with Montag 
Bros, seven or eight years. I don't know whose handwriting that is 
(State's Exhibit "K"). It looks like Mr. Frank's, but it is not clear to 
me. It is entirely different from his usual handwriting. It is different 
from those I have identified positively as Mr. Frank's, but it is figures on 
those, and here it is in the form of a letter. There is no comparison 
With a few capital letters you can't get an idea of a man's handwriting. 
I am not positive that that is Mr. Frank's handwriting. It might be. 
You take this sheet here (requisition sheet) and you can't get an idea of 
a man's handwriting from this, because everything is figures in here. 
His writing might be entirely different if he sat down to write a letter. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I have never seen a letter written by Mr. Frank. The only writing 
of his that I am familiar with are figures and things like that, pay rolls, 
writings in requisitions and words that consist largely of abbreviations. 
HARRY GOTTHEEVIER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a traveling salesman. I make two trips a year for the National 
Pencil Company, from the first of February to the first of April, and 
from the first of September to the fifteenth of October. I was at Montag 
Bros, around ten o'clock on April 26th. I had come in from my trip on 
the road and was writing up my orders. I had been away ten days. Mr. 
Frank came in after I got there. I asked him about two important orders 
as to their shipments and he replied that he couldn't tell whether they 
had been shipped or not, but that if I would return to the factory with 
him he would give me the duplicate invoices and let me see for myself. 
I replied that I would not have time to go back, as I had lots of orders. 
He says: "If you can't come now, come this afternoon." And then he 
walked in to Mr. Montag 's office, and as he went into the office he said: 
"Come up now, or come up after dinner." 

[124] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I saw Frank in his office one Saturday afternoon in the early part of 
April about three o'clock. His wife was there doing some stenographic 
work for him. Mr. Frank said Saturday morning, April 26th, that if I 
couldn't come to the factory in the morning that I should come in the af- 
ternoon. I am sure of that conversation. Miss Hall heard part of it. I 
had been in his office on previous Saturday afternoons. I never found 
any of the doors locked. He was always working. 
MRS. RAE FRANK, sworn for the Defendant. 



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I am the mother of Leo Frank. I live in Brooklyn. I lived in Texas 
three years, where Leo was born. Mr. Moses Frank of Atlanta is my 
husband's brother. I saw him at Hotel McAlpin in New York City on 
April 27th and April 28th. The letter that you hand me (Defendant's 
Exhibit 42) I saw on Monday, April 28th. It is my son's handwriting. 
This sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 43) is a sort of financial sheet. I had 
lunch with Mr. Moses Frank at Hotel McAlpin on Monday, April 28th. 
His wife read this letter to him in my presence and it was handed to me 
afterwards. I also saw that sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 43) but I did 
not understand it. The handwriting on that envelope (Exhibit for De- 
fendant, 44) is that of my son. The word "Yondiff " in the letter is He- 
brew, meaning "Holiday." 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The letter was folded exactly as it is now to the best of my recollec- 
tion, just in that shape. Mr. Frank has no rich relatives in Brooklyn. 
That is my son's handwriting (State's Exhibit "K"). It is a photo- 
graphic copy. There was another paper included in the envelope which 
that letter came in, some price list, but I didn't look at it. It had num- 
bers of pencils and prices on it. That letter was read in Hotel McAlpin, 
in Mr. Moses Frank's room. As to what relatives Mr. Frank has in 
Brooklyn, my brother-in-law, Mr. Bennett, is a clerk at $18 a week. My 
son-in-law Mr. Stearns is in the retail cigar business. As to what my 
means of support are, we have about $20,000 out at interest, my husband 
and I, at six per cent. We own the house we live in. We have a $6,000 
mortgage on it. The house is worth about $10,000. My husband is doing 
nothing. He is not in good health. Up to a year ago he was a traveling 
salesman. These are the only relatives my son has in Brooklyn. Mr. 
Moses Frank, my brother-in-law, generally spends a Sunday with us in 
Brooklyn, before he sails for Europe. He spends Sunday with us in 
Brooklyn and has dinner with us. He was not in Brooklyn on April 26th. 
He is supposed to be very wealthy. I don't know how much cash my hus- 
band has in bank. A few hundred dollars ponsibly. My husband is 67 
years old. He is broken down from hard work and in very poor health. 
He was too unwell to come down here. 

[125] 
126 

OSCAR PAPPENHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am in the furniture business. I am also a stockholder of the Na- 
tional Pencil Company. I have been getting comparative sheets as to 
the weekly business of the Company from Frank since March, 1910. Up 
to the time the Post Office distributed mail on Sunday, I used to always 
go to the Post Office to get my mail and always found this report on Sun- 
day morning. When I quit going to the Post Office on Sundays I received 
the reports in the first mail on Monday mornings. I have here the report 
for the week ending April 24, 1913 (Defendant's Exhibit 45). I got that 
on Monday morning, April 28th. I also have here all the comparative 
sheets received by me every week beginning January 18, 1912, up to 
April 24, 1913 (Defendant's Exhibit 46). 



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C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I married a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I phoned him on Friday and 
asked him if he would go to the baseball game Saturday. He said he 
didn't know, he might go and would phone me later and let me know. 
On Saturday when I got home about twenty minutes to two my cook told 
me that Mr. Frank had phoned and told me that he wasn't going to the 
game. I saw him on Sunday, after the murder, at my house. I saw no 
scratches, marks or bruises on him. He seemed to be a little disturbed 
in mind. I saw him again that afternoon. He told us about the tragedy. 
That evening we met him and his wife coming down Washington street 
opposite the Hebrew Orphans' Home. He gave me my rain coat right 
there, which he had borrowed previously. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He and his wife and my wife and myself generally play cards Satur- 
day evening. We were very much interested in bridge and played to- 
gether often. Mr. and Mrs. Selig's family usually played poker Satur- 
day night. Mr. Frank and his wife never played poker. I am positive I 
rang Mr. Frank up and asked him to go to the ball game. Mr. Frank 
called it off about 1 :30 on Saturday; when I got home and got the mes- 
sage from my cook it was twenty to two. Mr. Frank borrowed my rain 
coat at 4:30 on Sunday when it was raining, and I met him about 6 o'clock 
on Washington Street, and he returned it. He never had that rain coat 
until Sunday afternoon. I am positive that he did not have it on Satur- 
day. 

MRS. C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am Mrs. Leo Frank's sister. I received a telephone message for 
Mr. Ursenbach from Mr. Frank through my cook on Saturday at half 
past one. I saw no scratches, bruises, or marks on Mr. Frank on Sun- 
day. He was nervous as one would have been under the circumstances. 
He borrowed a rain coat from my husband that afternoon. The rain coat 

[126] 

was at our house on Saturday. It was there when my husband asked him 
if he would wear it on Sunday. Mr. Frank did not have it on Saturday. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

On Sunday Mr. Frank when he was at the house told us he had been 
called down town and that this little girl was murdered, and he told what 
a horrible crime it was. He did not say who committed it. He said noth- 
ing about employing a lawyer. He said nothing about how he slept the 
night before. I think he told about being at the undertaker's in the after- 
noon. I did not hear him say anything about his visit to the undertaker's 
in the morning. He said he had been taken down to the factory in the 
morning by the detectives. He said he had thought he heard the tele- 
phone ringing in his sleep, the night before. He said when he saw the 
corpse it was a grewsome sight. He said nothing about why he did not 
stay in the room and look at the corpse longer or more carefully. He 
said nothing about suspecting Newt Lee as being the guilty party. He 
said he was sorry he let Gantt in the factory Saturday afternoon, be- 
cause he mistrusted him, because he had not been honest. He did not 



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say he thought Newt Lee or Gantt had committed the crime. He said 
nothing about the clock having been improperly punched. I was not in 
the room the entire time. I had guests and I was out a good deal of the 
time. I don't know if he knew the name of Mary Phagan then or not. I 
think he said she was choked. He didn't say anything about a cord 
around her neck but said she had a frill of her petticoat around her neck. 
He mentioned he had paid her off the Saturday before. I don't know 
that he mentioned the name of the girl at all at that time. He said he 
had discharged Gantt because he was not honest. I think he said Newt 
Lee was a good fellow as much as he knew about him. On Monday night 
over at Selig's Mr. Frank was there and we had a conversation on the 
subject. He spoke of having a detective at the house in the morning, 
that the detectives thought that he had done it and how strange it was 
that they should say so. He didn't say that he suspected anybody. He 
seemed to be calm as usual that night. He never mentioned suspecting 
anybody of the crime. On Monday night he said he had been suspected 
in the morning by the detectives. That night he sat on the couch and 
patted his foot. That was the only indication of nervousness I saw. Mr. 
Frank did not have Mr. Ursenbach's rain coat on Saturday. It was in 
our house all day Saturday and until my husband asked him Sunday if 
he would wear it. 

MRS. A. E. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I played cards Saturday night at 
Mrs. Selig's. Mr. Frank was there sitting out in the hall reading, and 
Mrs. Frank was going in and out of the room. Mr. Frank went to bed 
after ten o'clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him, no bruises, 
marks or signs. 

[127] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He came in one time and told me something funny about a baseball 
joke. We were still playing when he went to bed. 
MRS. M. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am no relation of Mr. or Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank at half past 
eight or a quarter to nine in the evening on April 26th, at Mrs. Selig's 
residence. We played cards there. Mr. Frank opened the door for us. 
He stayed in the hall reading. We played cards in the dining room. He 
went to bed between ten and half after ten. He appeared as natural as 
usual. I left the house about twelve o'clock. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We had a game of cards every Saturday afternoon at somebody 
else's house. 

M. J. GOLDSTEIN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I played cards Saturday night, April 26th, at Mrs. Selig's house. I 
got there about 8:15. We played in the dining room. Mr. Frank was sit- 
ting in the hall. There was nothing unusual about him, no nervousness 
or anxiety. There was nothing that attracted our attention. I have 
never known Mr. or Mrs. Frank to play poker. I should say he went to 
bed about 10:30. His wife followed about fifteen minutes afterwards. 



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I never noticed any marks or bruises about his person. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He came in while we were playing to tell us of some joke he had read, 

and we asked him to desist as it was distracting us from the game. Frank 

was reading a magazine which caused him considerable merriment and 

laughter. 

I. STRAUSS, sworn for the Defendant. 

I was at the home of Mrs. Selig, Saturday night, playing cards. I 

got there about 10:30. Mr. Frank let me in. While we played he was 

sitting in the hall reading. I could see him through the door. There was 

nothing unusual about him. He went to bed immediately after I got 

there. His wife went to bed soon afterwards. 

MRS. EMIL SELIG, recalled for the Defendant. 

(Witness denies categorically that any of the contents of Minola 

McKnight's affidavit (State's Exhibit "J") are true). I have never 

raised Minola's wages one penny since she has been with me. 

[128] 
129 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I didn't see Albert McKnight at my house on Saturday. He has 
been to the house two or three times. I was in bed when Mr. and Mrs. 
Frank went down stairs Sunday morning in response to the ringing of 
the telephone. Mr. Frank got home about eleven o'clock Sunday morn- 
ing and then ate his breakfast. He and his wife went out together. Min- 
ola was paid $3.50 a week. I advanced her a week's wages. I don't know 
what week that was. I didn't pay her anything the next week. The first 
week I gave her $5.00 and told her to give me the change. She brought 
$1.00 the next morning, and told me she kept 50 cents which I deducted 
the next week. I think Mrs. Frank gave her a hat. I don't know when 
that was. Mrs. Frank has never given her any money to my knowledge. 
SIGMUND MONTAG, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am engaged in manufacturing stationery. I am treasurer of the 
National Pencil Company. The company receives its mail at my office, 
which is two blocks from the pencil factory. Frank comes to my office 
every day of the year to get the mail and instructions with regard to or- 
ders and the business of the factory. He came to my office on April 26th, 
about ten o'clock and stayed about an hour. He talked to me, my stenog- 
rapher, Miss Hattie Hall, and Mr. Gottheimer, one of the salesman. Up 
to about a year ago I went to the factory almost every Saturday after- 
noon. Mr. Frank would always be working at his desk on the financial 
sheet. The telephone in my house is 20 feet from my bed. I did not hear 
it ring Sunday morning. My wife was aroused by its ringing and she 
waked me. The man at the other end asked me if I could identify a girl 
that was killed in the basement of the pencil factory. I referred him to 
Mr. Darley who was most familiar with the help in the factory. After 
breakfast Mr. Frank came to my house. It was a raw, chilly morning. 
He was no more nervous than we were about the murder when we saw 
him that morning. I was very much agitated and trembled. My wife 



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was very nervous and commenced to cry. I saw no marks, scratches or 
discolorations of any sort on his face, and there were no spots on his 
clothing. I went to the factory that morning and made a general exam- 
ination, including the metal room. We saw nothing on the floor. Frank 
was very much nervous and agitated when he told us about the occur- 
rence. We have a great many accidents in the metal room. They would 
be brought to the front of the building into the office. I heard that about 
nine o'clock Monday morning Mr. Frank had been taken to police head- 
quarters. I knew that he had a very limited acquaintance there and I 
therefore telephoned for Mr. Herbert Haas, my personal counsel and 
counsel for the pencil company to go down there. Mr. Haas answered 
that he didn't like to leave home that morning, that his wife was expect- 
ing a new arrival, so I sent my automobile after him. Mr. Haas came 
back and said he was refused admittance to Mr. Frank at the station 
house, and said he was going to telephone Mr. Rosser. He then tele- 

[129] 

phoned for Mr. Rosser. That was between half past ten and eleven. Mr. 
Rosser came down to the station house thirty or forty minutes later. I 
saw Mr. Rosser go upstairs. About forty minutes later Mr. Black and 
Mr. Haas left police headquarters with Mr. Frank. I always received 
the financial sheet on Monday morning. Mr. Frank would bring them 
over in envelopes. I saw the financial sheet of April 24 (Defendant's 
Exhibit 2) on Monday afternoon about three o'clock. That was after 
Mr. Schiff called me over the telephone and asked me if I would sanction 
the employment of the Pinkertons to ferret out this crime, and I told Mr. 
Schiff to go ahead. I told him and Mr. Darley to help the authorities all 
in their power to find out the murderer, whoever he might be. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank was well acquainted with our attorney, Mr. Haas. He 
was president of the B'nai B 'rith. The B'nai B'rith has between four 
or five hundred members, I should say. When I say that Mr. Frank had 
a limited acquaintance, I meant that the people around police headquar- 
ters did not know Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not ask for an attorney. 
Mr. Schiff told me that Mr. Frank had spoken to him about employing 
the Pinkertons. Mr. Frank was very nervous when he was at my house 
Sunday morning. He had already been to the undertaker's. He told me 
they had taken him into a dark room and flashed on a light, and he said 
he saw the little girl there. He described how she looked. He said her 
face was scratched and her eye was discolored, and she seemed to have a 
gash in her head. Her mouth was full of sawdust and he described her 
in a general way. He did not call my attention to his being nervous. He 
did not say anything to me about an attorney or having been to police 
headquarters. I don't know whether he had been to police headquarters 
or not. I authorized the employment of the Pinkertons on Monday. I 
had not then employed counsel. My sending Mr. Herbert Haas to see 
Mr. Frank was not employing counsel. I made no trade with Mr. Haas. 
Don't know who is paying his fee. I have not contributed anything to- 
wards it, nor has the Pencil Company. The Pencil Company is employ- 



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ing the Pinkertons. As to whether they have been paid yet or not, they 
haven't requested their pay. They have sent bills two or three times. I 
received the reports from the Pinkertons. They came sometimes every 
day and then sometimes they didn't for a few days. I got the report 
about finding the big stick and the pay envelope. I did not request the 
Pinkertons to keep the finding of the stick and the envelope from the 
police and authorities. We have little accidents almost every two weeks 
in the factory. There was one big accident about a year ago, a machin- 
ist, Gilbert, had his head bursted open in the metal department. That 
was about a year ago. The insurance company ordered us to clean up 
the factory about a week after Mary Phagan's death. 

[130] 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Superintendent Pierce, of the Pinkertons, told me that his reports 
would be furnished to the police before they came to me. 
TRUMAN McCRARY, (c), sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a drayman on the streets of Atlanta. I work for the National 
Pencil Company. I have hauled for them. I have drayed for them most 
every Saturday for the past three years. I would work on Saturday 
afternoons until half past three and sometimes as late as five. I would 
be sometimes there so late the shipping clerk would be gone. I have 
never found the front door locked on a Saturday afternoon. I have 
never seen Jim Conley watching there Saturday afternoon. I have never 
seen him guarding the door. I have never seen him around the factdry 
at all Saturday afternoon. I have never found the doors to Mr. Frank's 
inner or outer office locked. Both doors have glass windows in them. 
Anybody could see through them. I have sometimes found Mr. Schiff 
working there with Mr. Frank on Saturday afternoon. I did not see Jim 
Conley at the factory April 26th. I did not tell him to go down in the 
elevator shaft and ease his bowels. I went into Mr. Frank's office about 
twelve o'clock on April 26th. Mr. Frank was there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I did not haul any for the pencil factory on April 26th. I took a sack 
of hay there. That was about 7:30. I didn't see Mr. Frank upstairs 
that time. I did not see Jim Conley at all that day. It may have been as 
late as 8:30 that I reached the factory that day. Mr. Frank was not 
there. I was paid sometime before 12 o'clock that day. The boxes are 
piled around in there pretty high around the elevator going down there. 
There are some pretty large ones, four or five feet high. They are piled 
around the stairway. I have never seen them use that door to the Clarke 
Woodenware space. I have used it once to haul out a lot of trash. No I 
have never seen Jim Conley sweeping up there Saturday afternoon. 
There was one Saturday afternoon that I didn't go up there. That was 
since Christmas. I think it was in April. I went up there every after- 
noon in January. 

D.J. NIX, sworn for the Defendant. 

I was office boy at the pencil factory from April, 1912, to October, 
1912. I worked there every other Saturday until the first of September, 



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and then every Saturday thereafter. I am 19 years old. Before Sep- 
tember 1, 1 worked on Saturdays until between four and six o'clock. On 
Saturdays after September 1, 1 worked until between 5:30 and 6. I have 
never missed any days while I have been at the factory. On Saturday 
afternoons, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff would be there working. I would 

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132 

stay in the outer office. I never left the factory on Saturday afternoon. 
I have never known Mr. Frank to have any women in his office drinking 
or doing anything else. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never stayed there every Saturday afternoon in the summer 
months. Every other Saturday afternoon then I got off at one o'clock. 
No, I don't know anything about Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank and others 
taking women down the alley on Forsyth Street and around the back 
door. He did not have any women in the factory when I was there, and 
I worked every Saturday after the first of September until the first of 
October. In the summer I worked every other Saturday afternoon. 
FRANK PAYNE, sworn for the Defendant. 

I was office boy last Thanksgiving day at the pencil factory. It was 
snowing that day. I am 1 6 years old. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were 
working there in the office that day. Mr. Schiff sent me up on the fourth 
floor to straighten the boxes up. Jim Conley was there sweeping. He 
left the factory about 10:20. I left about 1 1 . He had finished his work. 
I went by the office to get my coat. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were still 
working. When I left I did not see Conley anywhere about the door. 
For two months I worked at the factory on Saturday afternoons until 
3:30 or four. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank would always be working in the 
office. I have never known him to have any women in there, or see any 
drinking going on. I would go to dinner about 1 or 2 o'clock. Mr. Frank 
would go about 12:30 to one and get back about three. I would stay in 
the inner office all the time. Mr. Schiff sat right across from me in the 
inner office. I would go to Montag's and stay about ten or fifteen minutes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I quit work at the factory seven or eight months ago to get a better 
job. Mr. Schiff was with Mr. Frank every Saturday afternoon I was 
there. I never went back at nights. I have never seen any beer bottles 
around there. I don't know whether Jim Conley came back after he left 
there at 10:30 on Thanksgiving Day. I saw him go down the stairs. I 
did not look for him as I went down. I did not notice him. 
PHILLIP CHAMBERS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am 15 years old. I started working for them December 12, 1912, 
as office boy, at the pencil factory. I left there March 29, 1913. I stayed 
in the outer office. On Saturdays I stayed until 4:30 and sometimes un- 
til 5 o'clock. I never left before 4:30 on Saturdays. I would go to dinner 
about 1 :30 and get back at 2. Sometimes on Saturdays I would be sent 
to Montag's for 15 minutes, to get the mail. I would sometimes go out 



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[132] 

to the Bell Street plant to get the pay roll there. I would get back at 12 
o'clock. Mr. Frank never did have any women in there. I never 
saw any drinking there. I have never seen Dalton come in there. I have 
seen Jim Conley sweeping there Saturday afternoon. Snowball would 
be in there once in a while. I have never known the front door to be 
locked on Saturday afternoon. After a certain time all the sweepers, 
including Conley and Snowball, had to leave the factory at noon. Mr. 
Darley gave them orders they could not sweep in the afternoon. After 
that I never saw any of them around there Saturday afternoon. I have 
never seen anybody watching the door on any Saturday that I was there, 
or any other day. I have seen Mr. Frank's wife come to his office once. 
Mr. Schiff would be helping him on some of the Saturdays that I would 
be there. I have never seen Mr. Frank familiar with any of the women 
in the factory. I have never seen him talk to Mary Phagan at all. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank and I were good friends, just like a boss ought to be to 
me. I don't know anything about Mr. Frank's telling Conley to come 
around and not let Mr. Darley see him. 
GODFREY WEINKAUF, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am superintendent of the Pencil Company's lead plant. Beginning 
with July, 1912, up until the first week in January, 1913, 1 visited the of- 
fice of the pencil factory every other Saturday, between three and five 
o'clock. I would stay there about two hours. I would find Mr. Hollo- 
'way, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff there. I never saw any women in the 
office there. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never saw Jim Conley there at the factory on Saturday afternoon. 
I am sure I saw Holloway there on Saturday afternoon. 
CHARLIE LEE, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a machinist at the pencil factory. I remember an accident to 
Duffy in the metal room. His finger was hurt on the eyelet machine, 
about October 4, 1912. It bled freely and the blood spouted out. There 
was a lot of the blood on the floor. He went down the hall to the office, by 
the ladies' dressing room. There was blood at that point. Gilbert also 
got hurt in the metal room last year. He was bandaged in the office also. 
In going from the metal room to the office, you go right by the steps. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been with the company two years and four months. Two 
weeks ago my wages were raised 21/ cents an hour. Mr. Darley raised 

[133] 
134 

them. I have not talked to anybody about what I was going to swear in 
this case. I did not see Gilbert get hurt up there. I saw him after he 
was dressed. Duffy was hurt in the metal room on the machine opposite 
Mary Phagan's machine. The pencil company took a written statement 
from me, signed by me, to keep the fellow from suing the company. I 
saw my signature this morning. I have never told you I signed that 



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statement. The blood was streaming from his finger and dropped all 
over the floor. The whole floor was bloody. He came out down the hall 
to the office. He stopped about in front of the dressing room, about three 
steps from the water cooler and asked me which office to go in. The blood 
was streaming from his finger while he was standing there, about eight 
or ten seconds. It dropped just in one place, holding his hand like this. 
It wasn't cleaned up, they only sweep the floor once a week, that's all the 
cleaning it gets. I never noticed it after that time. I have never taken 
any notice whether you can see that blood there now. Duffy was cut 
right near where those chips were taken up on the floor. It might have 
been the same place. It was right near there. I wouldn't say it was the 
same spot or not. 

ARTHUR PRIDE (c), sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked on the second floor of the factory. On Saturdays I work all 
over the factory, doing anything that is necessary. Beginning with July 
of last year I have not missed a single Saturday afternoon at the factory. 
I would work until about half past four. I have never seen any women 
come up there and see Mr. Frank, or any drinking going on there, or seen 
Jim Conley sitting and watching the door. The employees used the back 
stairs leading from the metal room to the third floor. You can hear the 
elevator running if the machinery is not running. It makes a roaring 
noise and you can hear it on any floor. The motor makes a noise, and 
you can see the wheels moving on the fourth floor. I know Jim Conley's 
general character for truth and veracity; it is bad. I would not believe 
him on oath. I wouldn't believe him on oath, because him and his whole 
family lied to me. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never associated with Jim. No, I ain't a high-class nigger, but I 
am a different grade from him. He had three or four watches and I 
bought one and I made him show me a receipt marked paid in full, and 
he sold me the watch and after that they come and got him to put him in 
jail about it, and then his whole family came and said if I would give the 
watch back, that they would pay the debt, and I gave the watch back and 
after they had released him, the family just said they done that to get the 
watch and they were done with it, and there wasn't any way for me to get 
it, but he swore to me it was paid in full. I haven't heard anything else 
said against him. I never paid any special attention to the elevator dur- 
ing business hours, but you could hear it all the time when the factory 

[134] 

wasn't running. It didn't shake the building. You could hear the eleva- 
tor when the wind blows. You could hear the elevator if the machinery 
wasn't running even if they are hammering. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I haven't missed a single day in five years, that I have been working 
with the factory. Yes, I say that Jim Conley forged a receipt on me for 
a watch. I let him have $4.50 on it, and I never got my money back. 
DAISY HOPKINS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a married woman. I worked in the factory from October, 1911, 



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to June 1,1912. I worked in the packing department on the second floor. 
Mr. Frank never spoke to me when he would pass. I never did speak to 
him. I've never been in his office drinking beer, coca-cola, or anything 
else. I know Dalton when I see him. I never visited the factory with 
him. I never have been with him until I went to his house to see Mrs. 
Taylor, who lived with him then. That was the only place I have ever 
seen him. I never have been to the factory on Saturday or any other day. 
I never introduced him to Mr. Frank. There isn't a word of truth in 
that. I have never gone down in the basement with this fellow Dalton. 
I don't even know where the basement is at all. I have never been any- 
where in the factory, except at my work. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have never been in jail. Mr. W. M. Smith got me out of jail. Some- 
body told a tale on me, that's why I was put in jail. I don't know what 
they charged me with; they accused me of fornication. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I never was tried. I never had to pay anything except my lawyer's 
fee, which I paid to Mr. Win. Smith. I never was taken to court. 
MISS LAURA ATKINSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have been in Mr. Dalton's company three times. I never met him 
at the Busy Bee Cafe. I have never walked with him to or from the pen- 
cil company. I have never walked home with him. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I worked at the National Pencil factory two days last month. I have 
known Mr. Dalton six months. I have been in his company three times. 
I did not know Daisy Hopkins. 
MRS. MINNIE SMITH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the pencil factory. I do not know C. B. Dalton. I live at 

[135] 

148 S. Forsyth Street. I have never met Dalton or walked home with 
him. I don't know the man. I know Mr. Frank. I have spoken to him 
six times in the four years and a half that I worked there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION WAIVED. 

V. S. Cooper, W. T. Mitchell, 0. A. Nix, Samuel Craig, B. L. Patter- 
son, Robert Craig, Ed Craig, T. L. Ambrose, J. P. Bird, J. H. Patrick and 
I. M. Hamilton. All sworn for the defendant. Testified that they lived 
in Gwinnett or Walton county; that they used to know C. B. Dalton be- 
fore he left Monroe in Walton county; that his general character for 
truth and veracity is bad, and that they would not believe him on oath. 
R. L. BAUER, sworn for the Defendant. 

During the summer of 1909 and 1910, 1 worked at the National Pen- 
cil Company on Saturdays. Since that time I have worked off and on at 
the factory on Saturdays doing extra work. I have also been up to the 
office Saturday afternoons, frequently during the past twelve months. I 
was there while Mr. Schiff was off on his trip. I was up at the office on 
the Saturday afternoon before Mr. Schiff went away. Mr. Holloway, 
Mr. Schiff, Mr. Frank and the office boy were there. I have never seen 
any women in Mr. Frank's office on the Saturdays I have been there. 



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CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have always found Mr. Schiff there on Saturday afternoons with 
the exception of the time when he was off on his trip during January and 
February. The only specific Saturday afternoons that I remember being 
at the factory, was the Saturdays during the month of January, 1913, 
when Mr. Schiff was off on the road. Got to the factory at three o'clock 
on the first Saturday in January. I went through the front door of the 
factory. It was unlocked and the door was open. Mr. Holloway was on 
the second floor in his usual place. Mr. Frank was in his office sitting at 
his desk. I didn't see any stenographer. I stayed there until nearly four 
o'clock. I have been to the factory on an average of two Saturdays every 
month. On the second Saturday in January, I got to the factory at three 
o'clock. Mr. Frank, Mr. Holloway and the office boy were there. The 
front door was open. The inside door was open. Mr. Frank was at his 
desk, in the inside office. I stayed there about a half or three quarters of 
an hour, about half past three or a quarter to four. I talked to Mr. Frank 
about ten minutes, and the rest of the time I just noticed things around 
the office. I saw Mr. Frank at the factory the third Saturday in January 
I was there. I don't know who else was there. I went to inquire about 
Mr. Schiff who was in the Ohio flood. Mr. Frank was in his office. I re- 
member seeing Mr. Frank in his office on the fourth Saturday in Janu- 
ary I called there. He was working in his office. I don't remember see- 
ing anybody else there. 

[136] 

GORDON BAILEY, (c) sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the factory. I am sometimes called" Snowball." I never 
saw Jim Conley talk to Mr. Frank the Friday before the murder. I have 
never, at any time, heard Mr. Frank ask Conley to come back on any Sat- 
urday. I have never seen Mr. Frank bring in any women into the fac- 
tory. I have never seen Jim Conley guarding or watching the door. I 
have seen Jim take newspapers and look at it, but I don't know if he read 
them or not. I have seen him have papers at the station house like he 
was reading them. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was arrested Monday, April 28th, about half past nine. I saw Mr. 
Frank before I was arrested. He was on the second floor. 
HENRY SMITH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the pencil factory in the metal department. I work with 
Barrett. He has talked to me about the reward offered in this case. He 
said it was $4,300, and he thought if anybody was to get it, he was to get 
it, because he found the blood and hair, and he said he ought to get the 
first hook at it. He said it six or seven different times. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He would come out of the room counting it off on his hands. He did 
that 2 or 3 times and sort of laughed, counting that imaginary money. 
MILTON KLEIN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I saw Mr. Frank last Thanksgiving evening at a dance given by the 
B'nai B'rith at the Hebrew Orphans' Home. I also saw him that same 



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afternoon between half past four and six o'clock. The dance lasted from 
eight to half past eleven. Mr. Frank helped Mr. Copelan and myself 
give the dance. We were the committee in charge. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was down at the jail to see Mr. Frank when the detectives brought 
Conley down there. I sent word down that Mr. Frank didn't care to see 
Conley, that he didn't care to see anyone at that time. He knew that Con- 
ley was there. I was the spokesman for Mr. Frank. He wouldn't see 
any of the detectives either. Mr. Frank said that he would see Conley 
only with the consent of his attorney, Mr. Rosser. He said for them to 
send and get Mr. Rosser. Frank's manner was perfectly natural. He 
considered Conley in the same light that he considered any of the city 
detectives. He said he would not see any of the city detectives, or Mr. 
Scott without the consent of Mr. Rosser. He considered Scott as work- 
ing for the city. He included Scott with the rest of the detectives. Mr. 

[137] 

Frank looked very much disappointed because the grand jury had just 
indicted him when he had expected to be cleared. Mr. Frank has a great 
many friends who constantly visited him in jail. 
NATHAN COPLAN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I remember last Thanksgiving Day was a very disagreeable day. I 
don't remember whether it snowed. The B'nai B 'rith is a charitable or- 
ganization here composed of young men. They gave a dance out at the 
Jewish Orphans' Home Thanksgiving evening. Mr. Frank had charge 
of it. Mr. Frank and his wife were there. I got there about 8 o'clock. 
They were there at that time. They stayed there until about 10 o'clock. 
JOE STELKER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have got charge of the varnishing department at the pencil fac- 
tory; about sixty people work under me. I saw the spot that Mr. Barrett 
claimed he had found in front of the young ladies' dressing room. It 
looked like some one had some coloring in a bottle and splashed it on the 
floor. Chief Beavers asked me to find out whether it was varnish or not. 
I saw the white stuff on it. It looked like a composition they use on the 
eyelet machine or face powder. They carry that stuff around in buckets 
in the metal room. It gets spilled on the floor and looks something like 
face powder. The spots look like some varnish. The floor in the metal 
room is swept once a week. It is never washed. The spots look as if it 
had been made three days before. I would not have noticed it had not 
my attention been called to it. The floor is a greasy one. The white stuff 
looked like it come from the eyelet machine. The alleged blood spots 
could have been made with a transparent red varnish. If it is that kind 
of varnish it will soak in and look something like blood. If it is pigment 
it will show up right red. They use this kind of varnish in bottles in the 
metal room. I tried a stain on the floor there and it looked just like that 
spot that Barrett found. Everybody was nervous and shaky on Monday. 
The varnish I experimented with soaked in the floor and looked the same 
as the blood spot. I have seen paint all over the floor, it splashes out of 
the bucket and they just sweep it up. I was at the undertaker's Sunday 



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afternoon at two o 'clock when Frank was there. Mr. Quinn, Mr. Ziganke, 
Mr. Darley and Mr. Schiff were there. I looked at the body with Mr. 
Ziganke. No one else was present. I have known Jim Conley about two 
years. His general character for truth and veracity is very bad, there- 
fore, I would not believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Frank came from Brooklyn. I am no kin to Mr. Frank or any of his 
people. I do not belong to his society. I have never heard anything said 
against Conley, except since Frank was indicted. I also heard he was in 
the chaingang. I saw him in the chaingang on Forsyth Street. I saw 
him with shackles on. I don't know what he was sent up for. I sent him 

[138] 

out for 25 cents worth of beer and he filled it half full of water and he de- 
nied doing it. I could tell it was filled up by the taste of it. I know he 
did it because he had a suspicious look about him. That was last sum- 
mer. Ziganke helped me drink beer. That's about all the drinking I 
have ever seen there. At the undertaker's Mr. Frank had on a dark suit 
of clothes. He had no raincoat with him. We went to the undertaker's 
for the purpose of seeing the body. Mr. Frank did not ask me to meet 
him there. I went in to view the body and then came out. Mr. Frank 
came there ten minutes after we got there. While we were in there Mr. 
Frank had come and was speaking to Mr. Darley. I don't know how long 
I was sitting there. I was too nervous to know. I felt nauseated and 
nervous before I went in to see the body. When I went in to view the 
body Mr. Frank was standing outside talking with Mr. Schiff and Mr. 
Darley. Mr. Frank went in to view the body later on, ten or twenty or 
thirty minutes later. I was sitting down waiting for the rest of the men 
while he went there. Ziganke was sitting with me. I don't know whether 
Mr. Frank went in the room to see the body or not. Mr. Frank was ner- 
vous when he got there, and when he came out just the same. Just the 
same expression he has got on his face now. The room was full of peo- 
ple when Mr. Frank went in there. I went down to the undertaker's to 
see who was murdered. I did not know that she had already been iden- 
tified as Mary Phagan. I only heard when I got to the undertaker's. I 
didn't see the impress of the cord on the neck. I just took one look and 
then came right out again. I saw the discoloration of the eye and that 
bruise and I sort of felt sick and I walked right out. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I am a German and I am accustomed to drinking my beer. I have 
never trusted Jim Conley after he put water in my beer. 
HARLEE BRANCH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work for the Atlanta Journal. I had an interview with Jim Con- 
ley on two occasions. On May 3 1st, he told me he didn't see the purse of 
this little girl. He said that it took about thirty-five minutes after going 
upstairs until he got out of the factory. He said he finished about 1 :30 
and then went out. He said that Lemmie Quinn got into the factory 
about 12 o'clock and remained about 8 or 9 minutes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 



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I am sure about his saying he saw Lemmie Quinn at the factory at 
that interview. He was in jail when I had that interview. It was a few 
days after he went through the factory. As to Conley's movements at 
the factory, I was there a few minutes after twelve. Conley arrived there 
about 12:10 or 12:15. The detectives told him what he was there for. 
After a few minutes brief conversation, Conley started telling his story. 
When he reached the point at the rear left side of the factory, he de- 

[139] 

scribed the position of the body, and described what he did with the body, 
and how Mr. Frank helped him. He enacted the whole story and talking 
all the time. After he had reached the point of disposing of the body, and 
writing the notes, I found it was time for me to go back to the office and I 
left. Conley began the enactment of the story a few minutes after he got 
there, which was a quarter past twelve, and he went through very rap- 
idly. We had to sort of trot to keep behind him. I left the factory at 
1:10. In estimating the time Conley devoted to acting and how much to 
telling the story would be a guess. There is no way of disassociating the 
time between the two. I didn't attempt to do that. It would be a pure 
guess because I see no way of dividing the time. I should say that per- 
haps he was talking and not acting for about fifteen minutes. Of course 
he was talking all the time that he was acting. I did not say that I 
thought he was talking half of the time. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

In going through his performance he walked very rapidly. We were 
almost on a trot behind him. I was at the factory fifty minutes while he 
enacted his story. I left him after he had written one note in Mr. Frank's 
office. He wrote the note very rapidly. It took him about two minutes. 
He didn't stay in the wardrobe over a minute. He just got in, closed the 
door and got right out. In approximating the time of his performance I 
gave a minute to his staying in the wardrobe and two minutes to writing 
the one note. If you add six minutes to writing the other notes and eight 
minutes to the time he said he stayed in the wardrobe, that would be four- 
teen minutes added to the fifty minutes, which would be sixty-four min- 
utes for the time of the performance. If you deduct the fifteen minutes 
which I say he was taking, would leave forty minutes net which he took 
to enact the story. 
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION. 

That is just an estimate. The only time I had was the time I left my 
office and the time I got back. Conley got to the factory at 12:15 and I 
left there between 1 :05 and 1:10. I saw Conley pick up a paper in the 
newspaper room and he looked like he was reading it. It had pictures 
on the front page and I judge he looked at them first, because afterwards 
he folded it. He had several minutes while I was telephoning. 
JOHN M. MINAR, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a newspaper reporter for the "Atlanta Georgian." I visited 
George Epps Sunday night, April 27th. I went there to ask him and his 
sister when was the last time either of them had seen Mary Phagan. 
George Epps and sister were both present. I asked them who had seen 



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Mary Phagan last, and the little girl Epps said she had seen her on the 
previous Thursday. George Epps was standing right there and he said 
nothing about having seen her Thursday. He said he knew the girl, that 

[140] 

he had ridden to town with her in the mornings occasionally when she 
went to work. He said nothing as to having seen the girl on Saturday 
and coming in on the car with her. I directed my questions to both the 
children. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was not seeking evidence for the defendant. There was no defend- 
ant at that time. This was on Sunday, the day the body was found. I 
have been working under the direction of Mr. Clofein, city editor. Clo- 
fein visited Frank in jail. At that time Mr. Frank had not been men- 
tioned in connection with the case at all. At the time of the interview 
with the little girl and the little boy they were both in the room with their 
father. Their father took me out there. 
W. D. McWORTH, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a Pinkerton detective. I worked for fifteen days on the Frank 
case. For three days I took statements from the factory employees and 
on May 15th, I made a thorough search of the ground floor. I found near 
the front door on the ground floor, stains that might or might not have 
been blood. All the radiators in the factory had trash, dirt and rubbish 
behind them. Behind one of the radiators near the Clark Woodenware 
place, where the partition is, I found much trash, behind the trap door, 
up against the partition, and on top of the radiator were pipes and about 
eight or nine length of that rope that they tie pencils with. One length- 
the only one that came loose-was pulled straight away from the radia- 
tor and I saw signs of it having been cut recently with a sharp knife. 
Among the trash I found papers there dated February, 1911. That rub- 
bish had been there some time, because the rest of the floor around there 
was clean. About six or eight inches from the left side of the radiator, 
there was a small pile of dirt and sweepings. When I took Mr. Whitfield, 
another Pinkerton detective, back there to show him the spots I had 
found, we looked behind the radiator and as I was sticking my hand 
around the dust and dirt, I discovered a pay envelope. (Defendant's 
Exhibit 47). It was covered with granulated dust. I opened it and 
looked at it and saw the number 1 86 there. And the first initials of the 
name an "M" and a"P." I handed it to Whitfield and said: "Take it 
to the door and see what it is." It was pretty dark in there. Right in 
the same corner, I also found a club (Defendant's Exhibit 48). It was 
standing up on the doorway with some iron pipes. The club is used by 
the drayman as a roller to roll boxes and barrels on. The iron pipes 
there were used for the same purpose. The stains on the club were either 
paint or blood, I don't know which. I found this little stick back of the 
front door. (State's Exhibit "L"). 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I saw the spots in front of the ladies' dressing room. It just looked 
as if the floor had been stained. There are half a dozen places. There 



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[141] 

was no difference in appearance between the dark spots by the water 
cooler and the other spot in the metal room. I did not make any special 
search on the office floor for a pay envelope. I was looking for the mesh 
bag under the instructions of Mr. Scott. Mr. Whitfield joined me in the 
search. In my report to the Pinkertons I reported that I found what I 
took to be blood stains around the trap door. They were dark discolora- 
tions. There were seven of them, averaging about seven inches in diam- 
eter. The gas was turned on and I used matches in examining them. I 
had found the stains first and while Mr. Whitfield and I were back there 
looking behind the radiator, we found the cord and twine about the ra- 
diator. Whitfield was examining stains when I picked up envelope which 
was all rolled up. I found envelope about 3 o'clock on May 15th, within 
8 or 10 inches of the trap door. The name was written in lead pencil. So 
far as I know the envelope has not been changed any since I saw it last. 
I did not see any "5" on the envelope. We went out to see Mr. and Mrs. 
Coleman on May 17th, and showed them the envelope. There was no 
"5" on it at that time. There was no conversation about any five. I had 
talked to Mr. Schiff before I saw Mr. Coleman. In my report I stated 
that the stains might have been blood as well as stains. I reported the 
finding of this club to the police 17 hours after finding it. And within 
four hours thereafter, I had a conference with them about it. I never 
showed that whip to anybody (State's Exhibit "L"). I didn't show it 
to Mr. Black. I showed him the club and the envelope. I turned them 
over to Mr. Pierce, the superintendent of our agency. I don't know 
where he is, nor Whitfield either. 
JOHN FINLEY, sworn for the Defendant. 
I was formerly master machinist and assistant superintendent of 
the pencil factory. I have known Mr. Frank about five years. His char- 
acter was good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am now superintendent for Dittler Bros. They are not related to 
the Franks. I left the pencil company about three years ago. I have 
never heard anything about women going up in the factory after work 
hours. Mr. Frank and I usually left together about six o'clock. Mr. 
Frank went to lunch usually about one o'clock. I would sometimes work 
at the factory all Saturday afternoon. I did that most of the time that I 
was there. The elevator box was kept closed when I was there. I gen- 
erally kept one key and we kept one key in the office. The rule was to 
lock it and keep one key in the office. It has been left unlocked. The ele- 
vator doesn't make much noise that I know of. It doesn't shake the 
building; not when I was there. The wheels on the top floor are closed 
in on the fourth floor. You might be able to see them on the fourth floor 
if you stand on the west side of the elevator. They didn't make any 
noise. The power box don't make any noise. 

[142] 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 



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The motor makes a tremendous noise. You can hear it and the 
shafting anywhere in the building. 
A. D. GREENFIELD, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am one of the owners of the building occupied by the Pencil Com- 
pany on Forsyth Street. I have owned it since 1900. When we bought 
the building it was occupied by Montag Bros. They used it as a manu- 
facturing plant. The Clarke Woodenware Company sub-leased part of 
the first floor from Montag Bros. They used the front door on Montag 
Bros, in going in there. We have not put in any new floor on the second 
story of the building. I have known Mr. Frank four or five years. His 
character is good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have come in contact with Mr. Frank in business and I have heard 
my associates talk about him. I have seen him twenty or thirty times 
during the past five years. I have not contributed anything to any fund 
for his defense. I have not heard of any such fund. 
DR. WM. OWENS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a physician. I am also engaged in the real estate business. At 
the request of the defense I went through certain experiments in the pen- 
cil factory to ascertain how long it would take to go through Jim Con- 
ley's movements relative to moving the body of Mary Phagan. I kept 
the time while the other men were going through with the performance. 
I followed them and kept the time. Mr. Wilson of the Atlanta Baggage 
Co. also kept time with me. Mr. Brent and Mr. Fleming enacted the per- 
formance. The performance enacted was as follows: "12.56 o'clock, 
Conley goes to cotton box from elevator stairs, gets a piece of cloth, 
takes cloth back to where body lay and ties it just like a person that was 
going to give out clothes on Monday, ties each corner, draws it in and 
ties it, ties the four corners together, and runs right arm through cloth, 
went to put it up on his shoulder and found he couldn't get it up on 
shoulder, it was too heavy, and he carried it that way on his arm, when 
close to little dressing room in the metal department, he let the body fall; 
he jumped, and he was scared and said: "Mr. Frank, you will have to 
help me with this girl, she is heavy;" Frank comes and runs down from 
the top of the steps, and after he comes down there he caught her by the 
feet, and Conley laid hold of her by the shoulders, and when they got her 
up that way, they backed, and Frank kind of put her on Conley, Frank 
was nervous and trembling, too, and after walking a few steps, Frank let 
her feet drop; then they picked her up and went to the elevator and sat 
her on the elevator, and Frank pulled down the cords, and the elevator 
wouldn't go, and Frank said: "Wait, let me go in office and get the key; 
and Frank goes in the office and gets a key and comes back and unlocks 

[143] 

the storage box, and after that he started the elevator down; the elevator 
went down to the basement, and Frank said, "Come on," and he opened 
the door that led direct to the basement in front of the elevator, and car- 
ried it out and laid her down, and Conley opened the cloth and rolled her 
out on the floor, and Frank turned around and went on up the ladder, and 



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Conley carries the body back to where the body was found; Conley goes 
around in front of the boiler, and notices her hat and slipper and a piece 
of ribbon; and Conley said: "Mr. Frank, what am I going to do with 
these things ?" and Mr. Frank said: "Leave them right there ;" and 
Conley threw them in front of the boiler; Conley goes to the elevator, 
and Frank come on up and stepped off at the first floor, and Frank 
hits Conley a blow on the chest which run him against the elevator; Frank 
stumbles out of elevator as it nears second floor, Frank goes and washes 
his hands, and comes into the private office, and they sit down in the pri- 
vate office, Frank rubbing his hands on the back of his hair; Frank hap- 
pened to look out of the door, and said: "My God, there is Emma Clarke 
and Corinthia Hall;" Frank runs back; Frank says: "Come over here, 
Jim, I have got to put you in this wardrobe;" Frank puts Conley in 
wardrobe; Conley stayed there quite a while; Frank: "You got in a 
tight place;" ' Conley: "Yes, sir;" Frank: " You did very well; " Frank 
goes in the hall and comes back and lets Conley out of the wardrobe; 
Frank made him sit down; Conley sits down; Frank reaches on table and 
gets a box of cigarettes and matches, takes out cigarette and match, 
and hands Conley box of cigarettes; Conley lights cigarette, and com- 
menced smoking, and hands Frank back box of cigarettes; Frank 
puts cigarettes back in his pocket and takes it out; Frank: "You 
can have these;" Conley reaches over and takes box of cigarettes 
and sticks them in his pocket; Frank: "Can you write?" Conley: 
"Yes, sir; a little bit;" Frank takes out his pencil and sits down; 
Conley sits down at table; Frank dictates notes, Conley taking paper that 
Frank gave him; Conley writes one note; Frank says; "Turn over and 
write again;" Conley turns over paper and writes again; Frank: "Turn 
over again;" Conley turned over again and writes on next page; Frank: 
"That is all right." Frank reaches over and gets green piece of paper 
and tells Conley what to write; Conley writes, Frank then lays it on his 
desk, looks at Conley smiling and rubbing his hands, runs his hands in 
his pocket and pulls out a roll of bills; Frank says: "There is $200.00." 
Conley takes the money and looks at it a little bit; Conley: " I Mr. Frank, 
don't you pay another dollar when that watchman comes, I'll pay him 
myself." Frank: "All right, I don't see what you want a watch for, 
either; that big fat wife of mine, she wanted me to buy her an automo- 
bile, and I wouldn't do it; (pause) I will tell you the best way. You go 
down in the basement; you saw that package that is on the floor in front 
of the elevator; take a lot of that trash and make up a fire and burn it." 
Conley: "All right, Mr. Frank, you come down with me and I will go." 
Frank: " There is no need of my going down there, and I haven't got any 
business down there." Conley: "Mr. Frank, you are a white man and 

[144] 

you done it, and I am not going down there and burn it myself." (Pause). 
Frank: "Let me see that money." Frank takes money and puts it in his 
pocket. Conley: "Is this the way you do things?" (Pause). Frank 
turned around in his chair, looks at money, and looks back at Conley, and 
throws his hands and looks up. Frank: "Why should I hang, I have 



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wealthy people in Brooklyn." Conley: "Mr. Frank, what about me?" 
Frank: "It is alright about you, don't you worry about this thing; you 
must go back to your work on Monday, like you have never known any- 
thing, and keep your mouth shut, if you get caught, I will get you out on 
bond and send you away." Conley: "That is all right, Mr. Frank." 
(Pause). Frank: "I am going out home; can you come back this even- 
ing and do it?" Conley: "Yes, sir, I am coming to get my money." 
Frank: "Well, I am going home to get my dinner now; you come back 
here in about forty minutes from now; it is near my dinner hour and I 
am going home to get my dinner;" picks up money. Conley: "How will 
I get in?" Frank: "There will be a place for you to get in all right, but 
listen, if you are not coming back, let me know, and I will take these notes 
and put them down with the body." Conley: "All right, I will be back 
in forty minutes." Conley looks at Frank, Frank looks up. Then Con- 
ley gets up and stands by chair and looks down at Frank; Frank grabs 
scratch pad from typewriter table and starts to make memorandum up- 
on paper, but his hand trembles so he couldn't; Frank gets up to go. 
Frank: "Now, Jim, you keep your mouth shut, do you hear?" Conley: 
"All right, I will keep my mouth shut, and I will be back here in forty 
minutes." Conley goes out. It took us eighteen and a half minutes by 
the watch to go through the movements and conversation (as above set 
forth), which Conley says took place between him and Frank on Satur- 
day, April 26th. The experiment was made as rapidly as the dialogue 
could be read. The eighteen and a half minutes did not include the eight 
minutes that Conley said he was in the wardrobe and also the time it took 
him to write the notes. Including the eight minutes he remained in the 
wardrobe and the ten minutes estimated for writing the notes, the whole 
performance would have taken 361/ minutes. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We started the experiment at the entrance of Mr. Frank's office at 
the top of the stairs. We had the copy of Conley's movements and the 
conversation in our hands all the time. Mr. Haas and Mr. Wilson read 
the directions. Mr. Brent took the part of Conley. As they would read 
out the things that Conley did, Mr. Brent would do them. I went with 
him all the time. I don't think the giving of the directions lengthened 
the time very much, because the directions were being given while the 
enactment of each scene was going on. It wasn't done slowly and delib- 
erately. When they dropped the body those knots did not come untied. 
The sack that they carried, to represent the body, contained wet sawdust 
and cinders, and was supposed to weigh 107 pounds. It was tied up 
tigbh There was only one point in the enactment where there might 

[145] 

146 

have been a loss of time, and that was where Mr. Frank was supposed to 

have paused in the office, and I suppose five or ten seconds were lost 

there. Mr. Fleming took the part of Mr. Frank. When they took the 

body down on the elevator, Mr. Brent, representing Conley, opened the 

cloth and rolled the corpse out on the floor, on the cloth, then dragged her 



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back to where the body was found. Mr. Brent dragged it back. He sim- 
ply picked up the sack by the end and pulled it along. He dragged the 
sack with the enclosed sawdust weighing about 107 pounds, back. Mr. 
Brent enacted everything that was supposed to have been done by Con- 
ley. Mr. Fleming played the part of Mr. Frank. Neither one of these 
gentlemen are connected with the pencil factory. In putting the cloth 
around the corpse I think they actually gained time. They did it really 
faster than it could have been done. Mr. Herbert Haas did most of the 
reading of the directions. There were no feet hanging out of the sack like 
the body would. As to whether it isn't much easier to handle the sack as 
it was than it would be to handle a human body in a sack, with the head 
and shoulders and arms exposed at one end and the feet and the legs up 
to the knees exposed at the other, I believe you could pick up a body just 
as quickly as you could a sack. Corpses are pretty hard to handle. Flem- 
ing acted nervous and agitated like Frank was supposed to have done. 
He didn't tremble. I think he gained time there. In picking her up and 
putting her on the elevator I think they did that fully as quickly as a per- 
son could have taken a body, probably faster. I don't think Mr. Fleming 
really unlocked the elevator box like Mr. Frank was supposed to do it. 
He went through the motion. It probably takes longer to actually unlock 
it than it would to go through the motion of doing it. He probably gained 
time there. In going down the elevator, I think Mr. Schiff ran the ele- 
vator. He was in the building when we got there and let us in. He ran 
it because none of the rest of us knew how to run it. He brought us back 
up again in the elevator. That's the only part he took in the perform- 
ance. Mr. Brent, impersonating Conley, carried the body out of the ele- 
vator. He is a large man and had no trouble carrying 107 pounds. What- 
ever the instructions called for we followed to the letter. Mr. Wilson 
and I had the paper in our hands and checked Mr. Haas as he read the 
directions. These directions furnished us were supposed to be Conley's 
testimony on the stand. It was furnished to us as a copy of the evidence 
as given by Conley. When we got to the basement I am not sure whether 
Mr. Brent impersonating Conley, carried the body or dragged it. It 
could be dragged as quickly as it could be carried. I had my eyes on the 
paper all the time. Mr. Brent didn't get in the wardrobe, he was too big. 
He went to wardrobe and we eliminated the time he was supposed to be 
there. A small man could have got in it. They did not write out the 
notes. We eliminated that also. Staying in the wardrobe and writing 
the notes was not included in the eighteen and a half minutes it took. It 
was said that Conley's testimony was to the effect that he was in the 
wardrobe eight minutes. The notes were supposed to have taken from 
12 to 16 minutes to write, but we didn't add that in our estimate. Mr. 

[146] 

Wilson and I set our watches together when the performance started. 
The only thing that we omitted from the entire performance was wriiing 
the notes and concealing Conley in the wardrobe. Yes, I wrote that let- 
ter. I wrote it partially at the instance of myself, and partially at the 
instance of Mr. Leonard Haas, my personal attorney. 



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RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I wrote that letter as a matter of conscience. It is as follows: "To 
the Grand Jury of Fulton County, W. D. Beattie, foreman. Gentlemen: 
Among a number of people with whom I have discussed the unfortunate 
Phagan affair, I have found very few who now believe in the guilt of Leo 
M. Frank, and I have felt a deep conviction growing in my heart that a 
terrible injustice might be inflicted upon an innocent man. While we 
are all still mystified by the published evidence now at command, I am 
impelled by a sense of duty to ask that you carefully weigh the testimony 
of all persons connected with the crime, and the accumulating evidence, 
and if further indictments are warranted, that the Honorable Body, of 
which you are the foreman, will not hesitate to find them. If I am ex- 
ceeding the privilege which perhaps might be accorded citizens in thus 
addressing your Honorable Body, it is your privilege to ignore what I 
have said. Whatever may be your conclusion in the matter, I wish to 
assure you in thus addressing you, that I am discharging a duty which 
has weighed heavily on my conscience, the performance of which I could 
not forego. I do not even know Mr. Frank, and have no personal inter- 
est in the case whatever. Very truly, your fellow-citizen, William 
Owens." The pantomine that we enacted at the factory was the story 
as told by Jim Conley on the stand. 
ISAAC HAAS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I know Leo M. Frank for over five years. His character is very 
good. I did not hear my telephone ring on Sunday morning, April 27th. 
My wife heard it. The telephone is twenty-two feet from my bed. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

My wife waked me up when she answered the telephone. 
A. N. ANDERSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the Atlanta National Bank. That is the original pass- 
book of Leo M. Frank (Defendant's Exhibit 50). 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know that that's the only bank account that he had. He may 
have had others. Yes, the pencil company does business with the At- 
lanta National Bank. I don't know anything about how much money 
they had on April 26th. Mr. Frank's bank book was balanced Augst", 

[147] 
148. 

1 1th. These are all the checks that he drew (Defendant's Exhibit 51) 
during April. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

These cancelled checks are the ones that have been paid since April 
1, 1913. Mr. Frank had drawn no others since then. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

On the first of April he had $111.13, on the 18th of April he depos- 
ited $15.00. That is all he deposited that month, and these checks were 
drawn against that $1 1 1.13 and $15.00. 
R. P. BUTLER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am the shipping clerk of the Pencil Company. I am familiar with 



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the doors leading into the metal room. They are wooden doors, with 
glass windows. There is no trouble looking through these windows into 
the metal room, even when the doors are closed. The glass in the door 
is about fifteen inches by eighteen inches. Any one of ordinary height 
can see through them easily. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The doors are six feet wide together. The passageway from the 
elevator back to the metal room is ten feet wide with the exception of 
that part where we have some boxes piled up, where it is about six feet 
wide. The boxes go to the ceiling on the one side. It is not particularly 
dark there. I measured thO width of the metal room doors. They were 
six feet wide exactly from jamb to jamb. The doors are usually open. If 
any one came up the stair case and turned to the office, they could see 
through the metal room doors. The floors of the metal room are very 
dirty. I don't know if the windows are clean, but you can see through 
them. 

I. U. KAUFFMAN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I made a drawing of the Selig residence on Georgia Avenue, in this 
city, showing the kitchen, dining room, the reception room, parlor and 
passageway between the kitchen and dining room. The mirror in the 
dining room is in the sideboard as shown on the plat (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 52). It is fourteen feet from the kitchen door to the passageway in 
the dining room and the passageway is a little over two feet. Standing 
in the back door of the kitchen room against the north side of the door, 

1 could not see that mirror, because of the partition between the passage- 
way and the dining room. On the south side of the kitchen door you 
would have less view than on the north side and could not see the side- 
board wherein the mirror is located at all. It is 175 feet from the Selig 
home to the corner of Washington and Georgia Avenue and 271 feet 
from the Selig home to corner of Pulliam Street and Georgia Avenue, as 

[148] 

shown on the plat (Defendant's Exhibit 53). I made a plat of the Na- 
tional Pencil Company plant on Forsyth Street (Defendant's Exhibit 
61). The page one of this plat is the basement. Page two is the first 
floor; the dimensions of the elevator shaft are six by eight and back of 
the trap door, as shown on the plat, is a ladder going to the basement. 
The size of the trap door is 2 feet by 2 feet and 3 inches. It is 136 feet 
from the elevator shaft to the place where the body of the young lady is 
from the elevator shaft to the place where the body of the young lady is 
said to have been found, and 80 feet from the front of the elevator shaft 
to the trash pile and 90 feet from the elevator shaft to the boiler, and 116 
feet from the elevator shaft to the colored people's toilet. It is 135 feet 
from the elevator to the back stairway. The chute as shown on the page 

2 of the plat is five feet wide and 15 or 20 feet long. It empties upon a 
platform in the basement about eight or ten feet from the back steps and 
about 32 feet from where the body is said to have been found. The back 
door is 165 feet from the elevator and the total length is 200 feet. I saw 
no furniture, except a bunk with old dirty sacks, which were very filthy. 



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The floor of the basement is dirt and ashes. The trash pile is 57 feet 
from where the body was found and it is 21 feet from where the body was 
found to the colored toilet, and 42 feet from where the body was found to 
the back door. The angle from the colored toilet to where the body was 
found is 43 degrees and the partition in the basement cuts off the vision. 
I should say that it would cut off about half of the body. It is very dark 
in the basement. These diagrams are accurate, made according to accu- 
rate instruments. On the first floor there is an open areaway, extending 
to the west end of the building. It has a door about five feet wide. There 
are two toilets in this open areaway, about 90 feet from the front. This 
part of the first floor is directly above where the young lady's body was 
found. The size of the packing room is shown on page 2 of the plat, is 
about 33 by 80. The inner office of Mr. Frank is 121/2 by 17 . When the 
safe is open, you can see nothing from the inner office to the outer office, 
or the outer office into the inner office, unless you stand up, and the safe 
is about 41/2 feet high. A person five feet and 2 inches tall could not see 
over the safe. There are no shades in the windows and a person on the 
opposite side of the street could look into the office. It is 150 feet from 
Mr. Frank's desk to the dressing room. There is no view from Mr. 
Frank's desk to the stairway to the first floor. Looking from Mr. Frank's 
desk towards the clocks you can see about one-fourth of the east clock. 
You can not see the bottom of the stairway which leads from the second 
to the third floor. The doorways in the metal rooms are about six feet 
wide. They have glass in them. It is ten feet from the door to this dress- 
ing room. It is 26 feet from the dressing room to the place marked 
"lathe," and 37 feet from the lathe to the point where Conley said he 
found the body. It is 19 feet from the place where Conley found the 
body to the ladies' toilet. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 
There are ashes and cinders along the walk in the basement. Mr. 

[149] 

Schiff showed me the point where the body was found. I made every 
calculation from the point that Mr. Schiff showed me. I made my dia- 
grams within the last month. About two feet of the wall prevents seeing 
from the desk in Mr. Frank's office to the stairway. You can only see a 
part of the east clock and doesn't take in the west clock at all. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

There will be no difficulty about one person going down the scuttle 
hole back of the elevator. 
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

If the Washington Street car had passed the nearest corner, it 
would be at Pulliam and Georgia Avenue. 
FURTHER EXAMINATION. 

Sitting near the back door, he could not see the mirror. 
FURTHER EXAMINATION. 

I do not know what the arrangement was in the Selig home on 
April 26th. 
J. Q. ADAMS, sworn for the Defendant. 



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I am a photographer. I took photographs of the Selig home at 68 E. 
Georgia Avenue from the inside and the outside of the back door, looking 
toward the passageway that leads in the dining room. The door into the 
dining room was open, for me. This view (Exhibit 62) is view made 
from the outside of the rear door. I was about three feet outside of the 
door. The picture does not extend to the mirror, or the sideboard. You 
could not see them from the outside. This (Exhibit 63 for Defendant) is 
a photograph taken standing directly in the door. You could not see the 
mirror with the naked eye or in the picture. The following are views 
taken at the pencil factory: (Defendant's Exhibit 64) is a picture of the 
safe, showing a view of the safe, standing just inside of the door of the 
office, looking toward the inner office. (Defendant's Exhibit 65) is an- 
other view of the safe and office made standing in door. You could not 
see any part of Mr. Frank's desk in inner office, or a man sitting at desk, 
or a telephone or a window. (Defendant's Exhibit 66) is a photograph 
taken on the outside of the outer office, looking toward the inner office, 
with the safe door open. You could not see into the inner office, to Mr. 
Frank's desk, or a man sitting there. (Defendant's Exhibit 67) shows 
the pay window. (Defendant's Exhibit 68) shows foot of the elevator 
shaft, showing the rubbish and barrels in and adjacent to the elevator 
shaft. (Def.'s Ex. 69) shows basement looking to back door to elevator 
shaft. (Defendant's Exhibit 70) represents the corner of the place where 
the body was found, the body being found just about the left corner, be- 

[150] 

hind the partition. (Defendant's Exhibit 71) shows the exit to the back 
door of basement. (Defendant's Exhibit 72) shows the entrance on the 
street floor. The elevator is behind the partition on the right of this 
photograph. (Defendant's Exhibit 73) shows the elevator and trap door 
and stairway on the first or street floor. (Defendant's Exhibit 74) shows 
the place where Conley says he found the body. The (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 75) shows the place where the cotton sacks were kept. (Defend- 
ant's Ex. 76) is a view of plating room. (Def.'s Ex. 77) is a view of 
the metal, room showing where the floor was chipped by the detectives in 
front of the dressing room. On the left is the ladies' dressing room. 
(Defendant's Exhibit 78) shows the lathe. (Defendant's Exhibit 79) 
shows a view from the third floor looking to the second floor. You can 
see a man walking from the metal room towards the elevator, just as is 
shown in this picture. (Defendant's Exhibit 80) shows the elevator box 
on the second floor. (Defendant's Exhibit 81) shows the wheels at top 
of the fourth floor. (Defendant's Exhibits 82 and 83) show views of 
the metal room. (Defendant's Exhibit 84) shows the doors of the metal 
room. These doors have glass in them. They do not lock. You can push 
them together, but the locks do not match. (Defendant's Exhibits 85 and 
86) show the metal closet with the door open and closed. All these photo- 
graphs are fair representations and are as accurate as a photograph can 
be. I have had 20 years' experience. A slight change in the mirror would 
have made the corner of it visible and would have thrown part of the 
room in view. 



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CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The mirror could be turned so as to see a reflection in the hall. 
These photographs were made about a month ago. Sitting in the back 
door you could not see very near the mirror at the Selig residence. 
T. H. WILLET, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am a pattern maker. I made the pattern of pencil factory from a 
blue print. This is the model (Exhibit 13 for Defendant). 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The height of the floors is not made according to scale. The floor 
plan is a correct representation, according to the blue print. The win- 
dows in Mr. Frank's office were not put in by me. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

I was given no instructions except to follow the ground floor plan as 
shown on the blue print. This is the blue print (Defendant's Exhibit 
87), from which I made the model. 
C. W. BERNHARDT, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a contractor and builder. This (Defendant's Exhibit 52) fairly 

[151] 

represents the back porch of the Selig home, as well as the first floor of 
the house. Standing in the kitchen door you can't look through the pas- 
sage way and see into the mirror. If you move up a little distance you 
can see about 1 8 inches of the mirror. You could see nobody sitting on 
the south side of the table in the dining room, or on the north side of the 
table, in fact you can not see the table at all, or the door leading from the 
dining room to the sitting room. Sitting in a chair against the jamb of 
the kitchen door, you could not see a man in that mirror. You would 
have to be a foot or more inside of the door before you get any view of 
the mirror at all. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Taking a point between the door and the back porch and a point 
about the pantry you could see about half of the mirror. The floor in the 
dining room showed that this furniture had been standing in the same 
position for some time. You coud see the top of a man's head if he were 
sitting at the table. If the mirror were turned you might get a view. It 
depends on the angle of reflection. It is easy to move the furniture. The 
mirror is rigid in the furniture. 
H. M. WOOD, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am the Clerk of the Commissioners of Roads and Revenues of 
Fulton County. Standing in the back kitchen door of the Selig residence 
that enters on the back porch and undertaking to look into the dining 
room, I could not see the mirror in the corner of the dining room at all. 
Moving up into the kitchen, near the passageway, I could see nothing but 
but top of one chair by looking in the mirror. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The view that I could get of the mirror would depend upon where I 
stood in the kitchen. I can only speak from the conditions that existed 
as I saw them as to the arrangement of furniture. 
JULIUS A. FISCHER, sworn for the Defendant. 



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I am a contractor and builder. I looked at the house of the Selig's 
at 68 E. Georgia Avenue. Standing in the kitchen door, I had very little 
view of the sideboard. You could see possibly an inch in the mirror. You 
can get no view from the mirror. The test was made sitting down and 
standing up. The mirror is four feet high from the floor. You could get 
no view of the dining room table, nor see a man sitting at the table. The 
mirror is fixed straight up and down. The view you get depends on the 
angle of the mirror. If properly adjusted you might see a man standing 
up. 

[152] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I had the mirror turned around, but I couldn't see anything. The 
mirror was too high from the floor. I don't know what the conditions 
were on April 26th. 

J. R. LEACH, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am division superintendent of the Ga. Ry. & Power Co. I know 
the schedule of the Georgia Avenue line and the Washington Street line. 
The Georgia Avenue line leaves Broad and Marietta on the hour and 
every ten minutes. It takes two minutes to go from Broad and Marietta 
to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama. It takes 12 or 13 minutes to 
run from Broad and Marietta to the corner of Georgia Avenue and 
Washington Street, about ten minutes from Whitehall and Alabama to 
Georgia Avenue and Washington Street. The Washington Street car 
leaves Broad and Marietta two minutes after the hour and every ten min- 
utes. It gets to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets in two 
minutes and it takes ten minutes from Whitehall and Alabama to Wash- 
ington and Georgia Avenue and ten minutes from Glenn and Washing- 
ton Streets into center of the city. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The men come in ahead of the schedule time. I suspended a man 
last week for coming in ahead of time. It happens that cars come in 
ahead of time. You sometimes catch the men in ahead of time when 
they are going to be relieved. It isn't a matter of impossibility to keep 
the men from coming in ahead of time, but we do have it. The English 
Avenue line is a hard schedule. It frequently happens that the English 
Avenue car cuts off the River car, and the Marietta car. I have seen the 
English Avenue car cut off the Fair Street car, which is due at five after 
the hour. 

K. T. THOMAS, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am a civil engineer. I measured the distance from the intersection 
of Marietta and Forsyth Streets to the pencil factory on Forsyth Street. 
It is 1,016 feet. I walked the distance, it took me four and a half minutes. 
I measured the distance from the pencil factory to the intersection of 
Whitehall and Alabama; it is 83 1 feet. I walked the distance and it took 
me 31/2 minutes. I measured the distance from the pencil factory to the 
corner of Broad and Hunter; it is 333 feet. I walked it in a minute and 
three quarters. I walked at a fair rate. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 



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I could have walked it more rapidly and made it in three minutes. 

A man would have to walk slower than I walked to take him 6 minutes to 

go from Marietta and Forsyth to the factory. 

[153] 

L. M. CASTRO, sworn for the Defendant. 

I walked from the corner of Marietta and Forsyth Streets to the up- 
stairs of the National Pencil factory on S. Forsyth Street at a moderate 
gait. It took me 41/ minutes. I walked from the same place in the pen- 
cil factory to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets, and it took 
me three minutes and twenty seconds. I walked from the corner of Hun- 
ter and Broad Streets to the same place in the pencil factory and it took 
me one minute and a half. 

PROF. GEO. BACHMAN, sworn for the Defendant. 
Prof, of Physiology and Physiological Chemistry Atl. Col. Phys. & 
Surgeons. Bomar says it takes 4 hours and a half to digest cabbage. 
That's for the cabbage to pass from the stomach into the intestines. 
The gastric digestion takes 4 hours and a half. That is the time it is 
supposed to be in the stomach. More digestion occurs in the small intes- 
tine. The pancreatic juice helps digestion mostly in the small intestine. 
It consists of water in organic salts of which sodium carbonate is the 
most important, and a number of ferments. The ordinary time that it 
takes wheat bread to pass out of the stomach is not less than three hours. 
The time for a meal consisting of cabbage cooked for about an hour and 
wheat biscuit to pass out of the stomach depends a great deal upon the 
mastication of the food. The times given above have reference to the 
most favorable conditions. If the cabbage is not well chewed it would 
take considerably longer. It is impossible to tell exactly how long. There 
is no regular rules about how long such substances as cabbage and wheat 
bread will be found in a person's stomach. It depends upon too many 
different factors. Even in a healthy normal stomach the digestion might 
be arrested or retarded at any stage, as by strong emotion such as fear 
and anger or violent physical exercise, or in the state of mastication. 
The pyloris prevents passage of food to the intestines except when it is 
liquid and when there is free hydrochloric acid in the stomach. If solid 
food touches the pyloris it closes immediately and nothing passes for a 
time. If there were particles of cabbage in the stomach unmasticated in 
which you can see part of the leaf, they are liable to keep the contents of 
the stomach in it seven or eight hours or longer by coming into contact 
with the pyloris. The liquid contents would pass into the intestines. The 
solid part would be retained for a very long time. The pyloris works 
mechanically, and unless a chemist knows to what extent those unchewed 
portions have affected the pyloris he can give no reliable estimate as to 
how long such food has been in the stomach. It's a guess. The acid in 
the stomach is hydrochloric, consisting of one atom of hydrogen and one 
of chlorine. It combines with protein; only one per cent, of cabbage is 
protein, and only about one per cent, of the cabbage is acted upon in the 
stomach; the balance is acted upon in the small intestines, and in the 
mouth, where digestion begins to a certain extent. The salts in the sal- 



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iva act on the starch in the cabbage. This cabbage (State's Exhibit G) 

[154] 

I don't think has been masticated at all so far as these pieces are con- 
cerned. There can be no doubt that these pieces would retard the diges- 
tion and the passage from the stomach into the small intestines. The 
presence of such cabbage would make it very uncertain as to how long 
before the food would pass out of the stomach. I couldn't say, and I 
don't think anybody could say, how long cabbage and wheat bread in 
such condition would stay in the stomach. As far as wheat bread and 
water are concerned the acidity of the stomach with reference to hydro- 
chloric acid may go between 40 and 60 degrees, which is the average 
height of the acidity. With wheat bread in the same shape of biscuit it 
would take the acidity about an hour to reach that height. With cabbage 
we don't know how long it would take it to reach that height. The acid- 
ity may rise very quickly and decline slowly. It would not necessarily 
take it one-half of the 4 _ hours necessary for digestion. When the acid- 
ity reaches a certain height it begins to descend. The longer it stays in 
the stomach it decreases. If you find 32 degrees in the body of a corpse 
you cannot tell whether it is on the ascending or decreasing scale. There 
is no data on how long it would take the acidity to reach its height in case 
of cabbage. If a gallon of the juices of a corpse are taken from the body 
and a gallon of embalming fluid, which is 8 per cent, formalin, is put in, 
it would destroy the ferments in the pancreatic juices. There would be 
no way to tell by testing such a body whether any of that pancreatic juice 
had been in the lower intestine or not, for the only way to tell that is to 
find the action of the ferment, and if the formalin has destroyed it you 
can't tell anything about that at all. After formalin has been in the body 
it is difficult to tell how long food has been in the stomach. Formalin de- 
stroys the pepsin in the stomach. I never heard of hydrochloric acid be- 
ing measured by drops before, because it is vapor. If I investigated a 
stomach and found wheat bread and cabbage, some of which was in that 
condition (State's Exhibit "G") and approximately a drop and a half 
or two drops of combined hydrochloric acid, the stomach being taken out 
during a post mortem on a subject that has been interred nine of ten 
days, a gallon of the liquids of the body having been taken out and a gal- 
lon of embalming fluid put in it, and if I further found the acidity of the 
stomach to be 32 degrees and practically no pepsin, and practically noth- 
ing in the lower intestine, the body having been embalmed with formal- 
dehyde, it would be impossible for me or any other chemist or physician 
to tell anything about the time it had been in the stomach. The acidity 
of the stomach does not suffice to show it, because it may have been 
higher than that. There may have been considerable free hydrochloric 
acid, and that may have disappeared after the body had been embalmed, 
or even before that some of it will combine with the walls of the body 
and some passes out. Not finding anything in the lower intestine would 
be of no value at all, because the ferments would be destroyed entirely. 

[155] 



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CROSS EXAMINATION. 

If I took the contents of an absolutely normal stomach and made a 
positive test and found starch there, and there was nothing to indicate 
that anything was stopped up, and the intestines six feet below were ab- 
solutely clear, and nothing has moved out of the stomach, that would 
show me nothing as to how far digestion had progressed, for starch is 
found in the stomach from the beginning of digestion until the last par- 
ticle of bread has passed out of the stomach and that may be three or 
four hours. Medical men are able to compile tables showing how long it 
takes to digest cabbage and other things by testing for protein, but not 
for starch, because proteins are the only substances which combine with 
the hydrochloric acid and which are digested in the stomach, and that 
can be done only within certain limits and not with mathematical cer- 
tainty. If the starch digestion is not interrupted, maltose would be found 
in the stomach, but if I made a test and found starch, but no maltose, I 
could express no opinion unless the food had been well masticated, and 
unless I knew how soon after the food entered the stomach that free hy- 
drochloric acid appeared, because free hydrochloric acid stops the starch 
digestion. Finding starch and no maltose would not necessarily mean 
that digestion had not progressed very far, because free hydrochloric 
acid may have appeared soon after the food entered the stomach and 
stopped starch digestion. In the average case I would say the starch had 
not been in the stomach very long. In an ordinary normal stomach you 
might find maltose before the food reaches the stomach, even in the 
mouth. It depends on mastication. If I did not find it in the mouth or 
stomach I could not say how long digestion had progressed. If I was 
told that these samples (State's Exhibit "G") were taken from a nor- 
mal stomach within from 40 to 60 minutes after they were taken in it, I 
would answer that they might have been in the stomach 7 or 8 hours. 
When it is said in the books that it takes four hours to digest cabbage it 
means cabbage which has been well chewed, not cabbage of that kind. 
(State's Exhibit "G"). 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Cabbage, like this (State's Exhibit "G") could pass from the body 
whole. Before it could be told with any degree of certainty how long af- 
ter eating a meal of bread and cabbage 32 degrees of hydrochloric acid 
would be found, numerous observations would have to be made. 
DR. THOMAS HANCOCK, sworn for the Defendant. 
A doctor for 22 years. Engaged in hospital work 6 or 7 years. 
Have treated about 14,000 cases of surgery. Have examined the private, 
parts of Leo M. Frank and found nothing abnormal. As far as my exam- 
ination disclosed he is a normal man sexually. If a body is embalmed 
about 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death, a gallon of the liquids of the body 

[156] 

removed, a gallon of embalming fluid, containing 8 per cent, formalde- 
hyde is injected, the body buried and a post mortem examination made at 
the end of 9 or 10 days, and the doctor finds back of the ear a cut which is 
opened and which extends to the skull about an inch and a half long and 



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finds on the inside of the skull no actual break of the skull, but a slight 
hemorrhage under the skull corresponding to the point where the blow 
had been delivered and there is no interference with the brain or any 
pressure on brain, no doctor could tell that long after death whether or 
not wound would have produced unconsciousness, because the skull may 
be broken and considerable hemorrhage and depression occur without 
any loss of memory even. There is no outside physical indication of any 
sort that a man could find that can tell whether it produced unconscious- 
ness or not. If the body was found 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death with 
that wound and some blood appears to have flowed out of the wound, 
that wound could have been inflicted before or after death, the blood 
might flow from a wound inflicted after death from one to six or eight or 
ten hours by gravity. If the wound was made during life by a sharp in- 
strument I would expect it to bleed. A live body bleeds more than a 
corpse. If under the above conditions only a visual examination of the 
lungs was made and no congestion was found, it could not be stated with 
certainty whether or not the person died from strangulation. If in such 
a subject I removed the stomach and found in it wheat bread and cab- 
bage partly digested like that (State's Exhibit " G"), and 32 degrees of 
acidity in the stomach and very little liquids or anything in the smaller 
intestine and feces some 5 or 6 feet further down, and if the stomach was 
taken from the body 9 days after death, after it had been embalmed with 
a preparation containing 8 per cent, formaldehyde, neither I nor any- 
body else could give an intelligent opinion of how long that cabbage and 
wheat bread had been in the stomach before death. The digestion of 
carbohydrates begins in the mouth. The more cabbage and wheat bread 
are masticated the more easily it is digested. Cabbage chewed like that 
(State's Exhibit "G") would take longer to digest. It is liable to stay 
in the stomach 3, 4 or 5 hours, and longer if it is stopped up by the py- 
loris, and when food is not chewed thoroughly, it causes irritation and 
constriction, and so the stomach would retain the food longer. 
Sometimes cabbage passes out of the body whole. No dependable opin- 
ion could be given as to the time that cabbage had been in the stomach 
from the conditions of acidity or lack of acidity, starch or the lack of 
starch, maltose or the lack of maltose. The conditions are too variable. 
A great many things retard digestion, such as excitement, anger and 
grief. Formaldehyde stops all fermented processes of the pancreatic 
juices, and after a body was embalmed with it I would not expect to find 
the pancreatic juices. It also destroys the pepsin, so that 10 days after 
death in the case of a body embalmed with formaldehyde no accurate 
opinion could be given as to how long the cabbage (State's Exhibit" G") 
had been in the stomach. Each stomach is a law unto itself. Cooked 
cabbage is more difficult to digest than raw cabbage. I recently made 

[157] 

tests with one man and four women with normal stomachs, giving them 
cabbage and wheat bread, and removing it from the stomach a little later 
to determine how the contents of the stomach looked. The first woman, 
age 22 (Defendant's Exhibit 88A) at loaf bread and cabbage, chewed 



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it well and vomited it 60 minutes later. She ate it at 12 o'clock approxi- 
mately. It took her 9 minutes to chew it. None of them were supposed 
to have eaten anything since 6:30 o'clock that morning, but she had drunk 
some chocolate milk at 9:30, and that gives this specimen the chocolate 
brown color. The next one (Defendant's Exhibit 88B) has in it the hot 
water and the entire vomit and embalming fluid added to it, that is for- 
maldehyde. This cabbage was not well chewed, and looks like it did be- 
fore it was eaten. She ate it at 5 minutes after 12, and it stayed in her 
stomach 45 minutes. The next one (Defendant's Exhibit 88D) was a 
man 25 years old. He did not chew his well. He ate it in 5 minutes. I 
took it from his stomach 1 hour and 15 minutes later. It was not di- 
gested. This next one (Defendant's Exhibit 88C) was a woman, aged 
21. She chewed it well, and held it from 30 to 45 minutes. There seems 
to be something like tomatoes in it which she ate at 6:30 that morning. 
This last one (Defendant's Exhibit 88E) was a woman, aged 25. She 
ate cabbage and bread. She did not chew it well, and kept it 2 hours and 
28 minutes. You can see cabbage in there. No dependable opinion re- 
sulting from the condition of the contents of the stomach irrespective of 
acidity or the other chemical qualities as to how long cabbage and wheat 
bread were in the stomach can be given where particles like that (State's 
Exhibit" G") are found. Where a young lady 13 or 14 years old died, 
her body is embalmed as above described, and a post mortem performed 
9 or 10 days after death, and the physician finds epithelium detached 
from, the walls of the vagina in several places, nothing being visible to 
the naked eye and he takes several parts of the wall of the vagina away 
and examines them with a microscope and discovers that the blood ves- 
sels are congested, that is, there has been a hemorrhage in a number of 
instances, the blood from those microscopic vessels getting into tissues, 
the removal of the epithelium could be accounted for by the fact that 
there has been a digital examination the day after death by inserting the 
fingers, but in that length of time I would expect the epithelium to shed 
off. Finding the epithelium missing in several places or separated from 
the wall of the vagina would not indicate any violence done to the sub- 
jects in life. The condition of the blood vessels above described I would 
expect to result from other causes than violence. The embalming might 
force the blood through the small capillaries. If the subject had just had 
her menstrual period and that had come back on her at about the time of 
death or before, that would account for those distended blood vessQls 
and hemorrhage; but even if violence caused them, you could not tell 
how long before death that violence had been inflicted, or that it had been 
inflicted within from 5 to 15 minutes before death. Death by strangula- 
tion might have an effect on those blood vessels. If there was no more 
damage than what I have described I would say certainly there was no 

[158] 

violence on the young woman. A bruise or discoloration could be pro- 
duced on the eye or face any time before the blood coagulated utterly, 
which may be as long as 8 or 10 or 12 hours after death. A blow on the 
back of the head can discolor the eye. Death can be produced by a blow 



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on the outside of the head by concussion without any appreciable lesion 
on the outside of the head. 

DR. WILLIS F. WESTMORELAND, sworn for the Defendant. 
DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

A practicing physician for twenty-eight years, general practice and 
surgery. A professor of surgery for twenty years, and formerly presi- 
dent of the State Board of Health. If the body of a girl between thirteen 
and fourteen years old was embalmed about ten hours after death, after 
taking out a gallon of fluid and putting in a gallon of embalming fluid, of 
which 8 per cent, is formaldehyde and the body was buried and nine or 
ten days after upon a post mortem examination a cut an inch and a half 
long cutting through to the skull in some places was found by the ear, 
and the skull was opened and on the inside of the skull no actual break of 
the skull was found, but a little hemorrhage under the skull correspond- 
ing to this point where the blow had been delivered and no pressure on 
the brain was caused, and no injury to the brain occurred it would be im- 
possible to tell whether or not that would have produced unconscious- 
ness before death. Skull may be fractured without producing uncon- 
sciousness. Death may be produced by a blow on the head that leaves 
very little outward signs. From looking at such a wound without any 
knowledge of the amount of blood lost, one could not tell whether it was 
inflicted before or after death. One could not tell from looking at a 
wound of that sort from which direction it was inflicted. [In answer to 
question as to whether he had any personal feeling against Dr. Harris, 
witness answered "No," but that he had preferred charges with State 
Board of Health charging Dr. Harris with professional dishonesty]. A 
blunt surface can produce a wound that would look like a cut. If in the 
case of the same patient the stomach was taken out and in it was found 
wheat bread and cabbage, some of the cabbage looking like that (State's 
Exhibit" G," and thirty-two degrees of combined hydrochloric acid and 
substantially nothing in the small intestine, and feces some five feet 
away, it would be impossible to form a reliable opinion that cabbage and 
bread had been in that stomach before death, on that data or any other 
data, that could be found by looking at the stomach nine or ten days after 
death. Many things retard digestion. Much depends upon the particu- 
lar stomach, and its affinity for particular foods. There is a cycle of 
acidity and in the progress of digestion that increases, and then later it 
goes down. Food that is not thoroughly emulsified will remain in the 
stomach indefinitely. Cabbage like that (State's Exhibit "G") and 
wheat bread might remain in the stomach until the process of digestion 
is complete, which ordinarily would be from three and a half to four 

[159] 

hours. They might pass through the body undigested. A formaldehyde 
embalming preparation would destroy the pancreatic juices, and also the 
pepsin in the stomach. The probability is that some of the hydrochloric 
acid and maltose found upon an examination of the stomach in such a 
case would in no way determine how long food has been in the stomach. If 
upon the post mortem above described, it was found that the epithelium 



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had been so effected that it had been removed from the wall of the vagina 
in several places, and upon a microscopic test of the wall of the vagina it 
was found that some of the small blood vessels had congested blood in 
them, these facts would not necessarily indicate violence of any kind dur- 
ing life, it being also known that there had been a digital examination by 
the physician just after death and before embalming, and that the phy- 
sician performing the post mortem had removed the wall of the vagina 
with his hand and scissors. Any epithelium can be very easily stripped 
after death. The digital examination could have stripped it. So could 
the removal for purposes of post mortem examination. If the subject 
had had a menstrual period a day or two before death and she was found 
in the act of menstruating at the time of death, this would account for the 
congested blood vessels, and it would also make the epithelium much 
easier to strip. Even if an opinion could be expressed as to violence be- 
fore death, it would be impossible to say that it occurred from five to fif- 
teen minutes before death. From an examination of the private parts of 
Leo M. Frank he appears to be a perfectly normal man. A black eye 
could be inflicted after death. As long as the blood is not coagulated. A 
lick on the back of the head could produce a black eye. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

There are sexual inverts who are absolutely normal in physical ap- 
pearance If I had a subject where there was a blow on the head, going 
practically to the skull, with no injury to the brain, and the face was livid, 
the tongue hanging out, with deep indentation in the neck, the flesh 
pushed out of place, with blue nails and lips, I would say that death was 
produced by strangulation, in the absence of other facts. A blow on the 
eye could produce a swollen condition after death. Even assuming that 
the doctor who went into the uterus and vagina with his fingers was very 
careful and did not rupture or injure the parts or cause dilation, and if 
the microscopical examination showed a dilation of the blood vessels of 
the vagina, discoloration of the walls, and swelling of the parts, the 
menses could have brought about this condition, and it would not neces- 
sarily be due to violence. Menstruation would not produce discoloration 
except there would be an increased reddening on account of the increased 
amount of blood. This change of color will be found wherever epithe- 
lium was, in the uterus and in the vagina. It would produce swelling 
wherever the mucous membrane was. A doctor could not look at cab- 
bage in various stages of digestion and venture an opinion as to how 
long it had been in a woman's stomach. Doctors do not know, even ap- 
proximately, how soon after a stomach receives a certain substance be- 

[160] 

fore hydrochloric acid is found in a free state. It may be delayed for 
hours, it may be found earlier. Digestion has no fixed rule at all. The 
usual rule is the hydrochloric acid is found within a range of about half 
an hour. The time when it begins to descend depends upon the charac- 
ter of the food in the stomach and as to how the glands are acting. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 
The human tongue could not produce any signs of violence in the 



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vagina. Where there is a skull wound an inch and a half long cutting 
through the little arteries like the wound described above, it would 
bleed and if the body lay in one place 30 or 40 minutes there would be 
bleeding and if the body is picked up and carried about 40 feet and 
dropped at another place I would expect to find blood there. Skull 
wounds bleed very freely and there would be blood wherever the body 
was. 

DR. J. C. OLMSTEAD, sworn for the Defendant. 
Practicing physician for 36 years. Given the facts that a young 
lady 13 or 14 years old died and 8 or 10 hours after death the body was 
embalmed with a preparation containing 8 per cent, formaldehyde, and 
the body is exhumed at the end of 9 or 10 days, and a post-mortem ex- 
amination shows a wound on the left side of the back of the head about 
an inch and a half long, with cuts through to the skull, but no actual 
fracture of the skull, but a hemorrhage under the skull corresponding 
to the point where the blow was delivered, with no injury to the brain, 
it would not be possible for a physician to determine whether or 
not that wound produced unconsciousness before death. Such a 
wound could have been made within a short while after death. It is 
impossible to tell from the mere fact of discoloration whether an eye 
was blackened before or after death. If the post-mortem made on the 
same subject 9 or 10 days after death showed upon an examination of 
the contents of the stomach a mixture of wheat bread and cabbage like 
this (State's Exhibit G), it being possible to distinguish a cabbage leaf, 
and 32 degrees of acidity, it would not be possible to determine from 
these facts or any other chemical facts that might be found there how 
long that had been in the stomach with any degree of accuracy. It is im- 
possible to tell when hydrochloric acid begins to be secreted in a given 
case. The hydrochloric acid follows a curve; as a rule it ordinarily begins 
slowly until it reaches a certain point and then gradually goes off ac- 
cording to the character of the food and the amount in the stomach. Af- 
ter death free hydrochloric acid and pepsin do not remain in such a 
state in the stomach that you could tell 9 days afterward the exact time 
of death. The hydrochloric acid disappears after death, and neither it 
nor the pepsin would be present in any degree 9 or 10 days after death. 
Embalming fluid destroys the pancreatic juices so that it would be im- 
possible to find them. Cabbage like that (State's Exhibit G) is liable 

[161] 

to obstruct the opening of the pyloris, and to delay digestion. Food of 
that character might remain in the stomach undigested for 10 or 12 
hours irrespective of the acid found there. If shortly after death a doc- 
tor makes a digital and visual examination of the vagina, opening the 
walls of the vagina with his hand and finds no signs of violence and 
then 9 or 10 days after death a post-mortem examination shows the 
epithelium detached from the walls of the vagina in a number of places, 
and a microscope shows on parts of the vagina removed from the body 
that the blood vessels are congested, this may be due to menstruation 
or the natural gravitation of blood to those parts and is not necessarily 



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indicative of violence. Manipulation of the membrane would account 
for the displacing of the epithelium. The use of embalming fluid would 
make a diagnosis of violence utterly unreliable. Strangulation might 
result in a distension of the blood vessels. The entire pelvic vessels are 
always more or less congested during menstruation. No one could make 
a digital examination of the vagina of a corpse without disturbing the 
epithelium. It would be impossible for a doctor finding those condi- 
tions in the vagina by means of a microscope 9 or 10 days after death 
to tell that violence had been inflicted from 5 to 15 minutes before death. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

There are medical tables showing that wheat bread digests in about 
2 1-2 hours and cabbage in about 4 1-2 hours. If cabbage cooked in the 
same way and bolted down in the same way is taken from the stomach 
of a living person within 30 or 50 minutes after having been eaten and 
is found in a similar condition to that of cabbage taken from the dead 
person's stomach 10 days after death, that would not necessarily mean 
that the latter cabbage had been in the stomach an equal length of time. 
DR. W. S. KENDRICK, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have been a practicing physician for thirty-five years. I was Dean 
of the Atlanta Medical College. I gave Dr. Harris his first position 
there. If a young lady between thirteen and fourteen years of age died 
and a post-mortem examination was made within eight or ten days af- 
ter death, by a physician who makes a digital and visual examination 
to determine whether there is any violence to the vagina or not, and in- 
serts his fingers for the purpose of deciding, and the body is embalmed, 
and after nine days it is disinterred and another post-mortem perform- 
ed and the physician performing the post-mortem takes a half dozen 
strips and sees nothing with his naked eye by way of congestion, but by 
the use of a microscope finds that some of the epithelium is stripped 
from the wall of the vagina, I don't think that the finding of the epithe- 
lium stripped from the wall would indicate anything unusual. I don't 
think that would indicate any act of violence. A female's menstrual pe- 
riods brings about congestion and hemorrhages of the blood vessels 
every time. The congestion gradually subsides within two or three 

[162] 

days. That would not be any indication of violence, nor could you tell 
how long before death the violence had been inflicted. If a young lady 
had a wound on the back of the head about an inch and a half long cut- 
ting to the skull and the skull was open and a small hemorrhage was 
found, that did not involve pressure on the brain and the brain itself 
was not injured, I am positive that no man examining the body nine or 
ten days after death could have any way of telling whether that wound 
would produce unconsciousness or not. It would be a pure conjecture 
if he said anything on that subject. Skulls are sometimes fractured 
without unconsciousness. Each stomach is a law to itself. It is a known 
fact that some stomachs will digest different substances quicker than 
others. I don't think that there is an expert in the world who could 
form any definite idea by either chemical analysis of the liquids of the 



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stomach or by the condition of the cabbage lodged in the stomach as 
to how long it had been in the stomach. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am not a specialist of the stomach, but I am and have been teach- 
ing diseases of the stomach and all these cases come under my jurisdic- 
tion. Dr. Westmoreland is a surgeon, not a stomach specialist. Dr. 
Hancock is not a stomach specialist. If you find starch granules in the 
stomach undigested and cabbage undigested and thirty-two degrees of 
hydrochloric acid in the stomach and no dextrose and no maltose, the 
small intestines for six feet absolutely empty, the sides and glands of 
the stomach all normal, I would not have an opinion as to how long that 
cabbage was in the stomach for the reason that each case will order it- 
self. Yes, there are certain general principles dealing with these mat- 
ters. Hydrochloric acid appears early during digestion and in small 
quantity, and goes up. The main things in the stomach are pepgin and 
hydrochloric acid. As soon as a piece of cabbage or bread gets into the 
stomach the hydrochloric acid begins to attack it and works until it 
has a clear field and leaves nothing in the stomach, and thereafter the 
hydrochloric acid descends. I have made no effort whatever to find out 
how rapidly hydrochloric acid descends and ascends. I should think 
though that whenever you find no hydrochloric acid the process of di- 
gestion is ended and that if you find undigested things in the stomach 
and hydrochloric acid in a small degree, that the process of digestion 
had not been finished. That's the general rule. That does not apply in 
all cases. For instance, I can't digest cabbage at all. It will put me in 
bed. Each stomach is a law unto itself, so far as digestion goes, any 
statement to the contrary is incorrect. There are certain basic laws 
that apply to most people. 1 haven't read a work on digestion in ten 
years. If there be four different stages of digestion, I think it would be 
impossible for an expert to tell by an examination what stage of diges- 
tion certain things were in. There are so many exceptions to the rule. 
As to whether the cabbage had been digested or not, if whole pieces of 

[163] 

cabbage were there I could tell, but if you could not find the cabbage 
either with the naked eye or the microscope, I would say that it had 
been digested. I don't know how long it takes an ordinary stomach to 
digest turnips. If a 13-year-old child ate cabbage and bread on Satur- 
day and her body is found that night about three o'clock, with the 
tongue out, deep indentations in the neck, a small flow of blood from a 
wound in the back of the head, a discolor of blood over her pantlets, 
one of the drawers legs torn, the stocking supporter torn loose rigor 
mortis had set in since 16 to 20 hours, all blood had settled down in that 
part where gravity had taken it according to the way the body was ly- 
ing and the small intestine was clear six feet below the stomach, the 
stomach was normal, and there was no mucous and every indication 
was that the digestion was progressing favorably and this cabbage was 
found with the naked eye in the stomach and unmistakable evidences 
of undigested starch granules and thirty-two degrees of hydrochloric 



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acid, I say emphatically that no man living in my judgment could say 
how long that cabbage had been in the stomach. If Mary Phagan was 
alarmed concerning her surroundings, or knew that certain facts were 
upon her, digestion then and there would have almost been completely 
arrested. If she lived six or eight hours after this alarm, I say that no 
digestion could have continued up to the time of her death. Any kind 
of mental or physical excitement would largely arrest digestion, proba- 
bly completely. I could tell by looking into the stomach that day, but 
if I examined that ten days afterwards, and found the cabbage in that 
state and I had said that death or excitement had arrested its digestion 
I would consider that I had stated one of the greatest absurdities of the 
day. I don't believe it is possible to tell a thing in the world of the 
contents of the stomach of a person that had been dead six or eight or 
ten days. Yes, that looks like cabbage (State's Exhibit G). 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

That cabbage doesn't look (State's Exhibit G) as if it had been 
chewed at all. Cabbage chewed that way would be hard to digest. 
JOHN ASHLEY JONES, sworn for the defendant. 
I have known Mr. Frank about a year or eighteen months. His 
general character is good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am resident agent for the New York Life Insurance Company. I 
don't know any of the girls at the pencil factory. I have never heard 
any talk of Mr. Frank's practices and relations with the girls down 
there. Mr. Frank has a policy of insurance with us. It is our custom 
to seek a very thorough report on the moral hazard on all risks. The 
report on him showed up first class, physically as well as morally. I 

[164] 

went to him in January, 1912, and tried to write him additional insur- 
ance, and on April 8th I went to the factory to take his application, 
where I met him and his wife. After a thorough examination of him 
by our physician and a very satisfactory report, covering his moral 
reputation, we issued him a standard policy. I have never heard of Mr. 
Frank going out to Druid Hills and being caught there, but it was the 
business of our inspector to find out that and he certainly would not 
have issued such a policy if he had found it out. Two or three of us in 
the office signed a long letter to the Grand Jury in the interest of jus- 
tice. Mr. Robert L. Cooney, Mr. Hollingsworth, Mr. Clark and myself 
signed it. We decided this was a matter of persecution. I think Mr. 
Cooney started it. No, I have never heard of Mr. Frank's kissing girls 
and playing with their nipples on their breasts. I have never known 
Mr. Blackstock. I never heard that Mr. Frank would walk into the 
dressing room when the girls were dressing, nor that he tried to put his 
arms around Miss Myrtis Cato and tried to shut the door on her, or go- 
ing in the dressing room with Lula McDonald and Rachael Prater, nor 
that Mrs. Pearl Darlson about five years ago threw a monkey wrench 
at him when he put his hand on her and held money in one hand. I 
have never seen any nude pictures hanging in his office, although I have 



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been there a number of times. I have never heard that he smiled and 
winked at young girls. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

This is the letter I wrote to the Grand Jury: Mr. W. D. Beatty, 
Atlanta, Ga. My Dear Sir: Without having the slightest intention of 
interfering in any way in matters which do not concern me, I believe 
that the interest which any good citizen has in impartial justice war- 
rants my saying that the business men to whom I have talked, com- 
mend very strongly the attitude of the Grand Jury in its disposition to 
at least investigate the merits of the situation as regards the negro 
Conley in the present matter which has interested the city of Atlanta 
so much that it is not necessary to describe it, and I sincerely hope. that 
the Grand Jury will go into the matter exhaustively, knowing from the 
character of several of its members with whom I am acquainted that, 
to the best of their ability, the right thing will be done." 
DR. LEROY CHILDS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a surgeon. If a person dies and the body found three o'clock 
in the morning, rigor mortis not quite complete, embalmed the next day 
about ten o'clock, the body disinterred nine days later and a post-mor- 
tem made, and a wound is found on the back of the head behind the ear, 
almost two and a quarter inches long going through the skull, there was 
perhaps a drop of blood under the wound, no pressure on the brain, no 
fracture of the skull, it would be impossible to determine absolutely at 
that time whether or not that wound produced unconsciousness. You 

[165] 

might hazard a guess. The presence of the blood on the skull would 
have no effect. It is the force that produced the drop of blood that is 
material. It would be purely a guess to say whether that produced un- 
consciousness or not. The wound would bleed if inflicted within an 
hour after death and would have the same appearance as if inflicted 
just before death. With such a wound it would be a guess for a doctor 
to say whether it was inflicted just immediately before death, or within 
an hour or two after death. Such a wound could be inflicted and a per- 
son remain perfectly unconscious. Fractured skull does not necessarily 
produce unconsciousness. Cabbage is a carbohydrate. It is considered 
the hardest food to digest among carbohydrates, because it has so 
much cellulose which is a woody fibre. The older the cabbage is the 
more cellulose it has. Cabbage gets its digestion in the mouth. That 
cabbage (State's Exhibit G) has not been masticated thoroughly. They 
have been swallowed almost whole. Raw cabbage is easier digested 
than cooked cabbage. Cooked cabbage is the most indigestible form of 
it. It is the ptyaline in the saliva that acts on the cabbage in the mouth. 
It acts on the carbohydrate part of the cabbage. The carbohydrate di- 
gestion ceases after it leaves the mouth until it reaches the small in- 
testines. The only thing that the stomach does is the churning move- 
ment by muscular action. As soon as gastric juice of the stomach 
strikes the cabbage it neutralizes the ptyaline and renders it inactive. It 
stops any further digestion of the carbohydrate. The balance of the di- 



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gestion of the cabbage takes place in the small intestines by the pan- 
creatic juices. The shortest time for boiled cabbage to pass into the 
small intestines is four and a half hours after it is eaten. The stomach 
does not digest the cabbage. A person may swallow cabbage and it will 
come out of him whole completely undigested, and it will appear less 
changed than that appears (State's Exhibit G). Psychic influences will 
retard digestion as excitement, fear, anger, also physical or mental ex- 
ercise. Substances may be in the stomach quite a while and show very 
little evidences of digestion. Each stomach has its own peculiarities. 
If a human body is disinterred at the end of nine days and the stomach 
is taken out and among the contents you find cabbage like that (State's 
Exhibit G) and fragments of wheat bread slightly digested, you could 
not by looking at the cabbage hazard an opinion as to how long before 
death that had been taken into the stomach. I don't think it is possi- 
ble to state within a period of hours how long that cabbage had been in 
the stomach. I have seen cabbage less changed than that cabbage you 
exhibited to me (State's Exhibit G) that has remained in the stomach 
12 hours. Bread and cabbage will not begin to pass out of the stomach 
until 2 1-2 to three hours. A blow on the back of the head could blacken 
the eye. It would be perfectly possible for the epithelium of the vagina 
to be ruptured by the fingers in making a digital examination it would 
be more liable to rupture it ten hours after this than immediately before 
this. Decomposition destroys the epithelium. It is a very delicate mem- 
brane. Decomposition develops very rapidly on such epithelium. In 

[166] 

cases of death by strangulation all the mucous membranes throughout 
the body are congested by blood. It is not unusual to find those blood 
vessels congested where death is by strangulation. In such a case I 
would expect to find congestion in the vagina, especially if a person had 
just had her monthly periods. Menses may be brought back by excite- 
ment. Violence would not be necessary to produce the conditions of 
congestion of the blood vessels that you have stated. The digital ex- 
amination would be sufficient violence to produce the changes in the 
epithelium that you have stated. The congestion of the blood vessels 
could be entirely accounted for by natural causes, or from death by 
strangulation. If the epithelium stripped in some places and the blood 
vessels are found congested under the microscope, there is no possible 
way to determine if violence had caused it instead of natural causes, 
unless there is a sign of bacterial inflamation. It would be impossible 
to tell how long violence was inflicted before death, where the body is 
disinterred nine days after death. I could not hazard a guess within 
two days of the time. I think I might in two weeks. 
GROSS EXAMINATION. 

The amount of digestion in the mouth depends on the amount of 
mastication in the mouth. If the blood is bolted there is no digestion. I 
am not familiar with Dr. Crittendon's table. If he states that boiled 
cabbage is as easy to digest as raw cabbage he is at issue with the gen- 
erally accepted authorities. Normal stomachs have certain idiosyn- 



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cracies. Digestion in normal stomachs is supposed to go along certain 
stipulated rules. You find free hydrochloric acid in any stomach that 
has food at any stage of digestion. As to whether you could ever find 
free hydrochloric acid in the stomach immediately after taking Ewald's 
test breakfast, would depend entirely on the state of the glands, and 
how long previous digestion had been in the stomach. As to the total 
acidity in a stomach after such a test, that is for a laboratory man. If 
you take cabbage out of a stomach like that (State's Exhibit G), the 
size of the stomach is normal, no obstruction to the flow of the stomach, 
and you find hydrochloric acid combined to about 32 degrees, no free 
hydrochloric acid, that the starch of the wheat bread is slightly digest- 
ed, and the state of the starch corresponds exactly to the state of the 
cabbage, I don't think you could tell inside of two hours or an hour and 
a half as to how long these things have been in a normal stomach. I 
have taken cabbage from a stomach by forced emesis twelve hours after- 
-ward and it did not show as much digestion as this cabbage (State's 
Exhibit G). The patient had a normal stomach, but the cabbage pro- 
duced indigestion. That is the only experiment I have ever made with 
cabbage. If the little girl was found 16 to 20 hours after she was mur- 
dered, and there is a wound on the back of the head, with a small blood 
clot nine days after the thing happened, and 1 6 to 20 hours after her 
death the blood underneath the hair is still moist and there is a deep 

[167] 

indentation in the neck, showing where a cord had been put around the 
throat and the tongue is out and the face livid and the nails blue and 
the lips blue and an injury to the wind pipe, I would say that the blow 
on the head did not cause death. 
ALFRED LORING LANE, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am a resident of Brooklyn, N. Y. I have known Leo Frank about 
15 years. I knew him four years at Pratt Institute which we both at. 
tended. I also knew him after he returned from Cornell University. His 
general character is good. 
PHILIP NASH, sworn for the Defendant. 

I live in Ridgewood, N. J. I am connected with the New York Tel- 
ephone Company, in New York City. I knew Leo Frank four years at 
JVratt Institute. I was in his class. His general character is good. 
RICHARD A. WRIGHT, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live in Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a consulting engineer, with offices 
in New York City. I knew Leo Frank four years at Pratt Institute. I 
also knew him three years at Cornell. His general character is good. 
HARRY LEWIS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live in Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a lawyer. I was formerly Assistant 
District Attorney of Brooklyn. I have known Leo Frank about twelve 
years. I have been a neighbor of his until he came South. His general 
character is good. 

HERBERT LASER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live in New York State. I manage my father's estates. I knew 
Leo Frank at Cornell University, during the years 1903-4-5-6. I was in 



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his class, and we roomed together for two years. His general character 
was very good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

He associated with the finest class of students at the University. I 
kept up a correspondence with him a couple of years after he left Cor- 
nell. 

JOHN W. TODD, sworn for the Defendant. 
I reside in Pittsburg. I am assistant purchasing agent for the Cru- 
cible Steel Co. I attended Cornell University with Leo Frank. I knew 
him for years during the time I was in College. I am the life treasurer 
of our class. His general character was good. 

[168] 

PROF. C. D. ALBERT, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am professor of machine designs in Cornell University. I have 
held that chair for five years. I knew Leo M. Frank for two years while 
he attended the University. At that time I was instructor in mechani- 
cal laboratory, and as such I came in contact with him. His character 
was very good. 

PROF. J. E. VANDERHOEF, sworn for the Defendant. 
I am foreman of the foundry at Cornell University. I knew Leo 
Frank for two years when he attended the University. His character 
was good. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been at Cornell 25 years. As to what caused me to take any 
special notice of Leo Frank I come in contact with him every alternate 
day while he was there. I know the characteristics of the boys very well. 
No, I cannot tell what Frank did when he was in the class-room. 
V. H. KRIEGSHABER, sworn for the Defendant. 
I live in Atlanta. I have known Leo Frank for about three years. 
His general character is good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I did not come in contact with him frequently. I am a trustee of the 
Hebrew Orphans' Home and Mr. Frank is also. I met him once a month 
there. I don't know how long he has been on the board. I have met 
him there probably twice. He also came quite frequently to the Or- 
phans' Home with his uncle, before he was elected to the board. I did 
not come in contact with him socially. 
M. F. GOLDSTEIN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I practice law in Atlanta. I have known Leo Frank about three and 
a half years. His character is very good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We used to live on the same street together. I would see him nearly 
every day. I would see him at the Progress Club a few times every 
month. During the last two years, he was the next ranking officer to me 
in the Lodge. 

DR. DAVID MARX, Jewish Rabbi, and R. A. SONN, Superinten- 
dent of the Hebrew Orphans' Home, being sworn for the Defendant, tes- 



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[169] 

170 

tified that they had known Leo Frank very well ever since he came to 

live in Atlanta and that his character was good. 

ARTHUR HEYMAN, sworn for the Defendant. 

I practiced law about nineteen years in Atlanta. I have known Leo 

Frank for three or four years. His general character is good. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been with him seven or eight times in three years. I have 

been with him alone, I suppose, five or six times, probably for fifteen or 

twenty minutes at a time. I have never heard any reference made to his 

relation with the girls in the factory. 

MRS. H. GLOGOWSKI, sworn for the Defendant. 

I keep a boarding house in this city. I have known Mr. Frank more 

than three years. He and his wife boarded with me for seven months. 

His character is good. 

MRS. ADOLPH MONTAG, sworn for the Defendant. 

I am a sister of Mr. Sig Montag. I have known Mr. Frank five 

years. His character is very good. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have heard of his character through the ladies he has lived with. 

Mrs. Meyers has told me how nice he always was to her. My husband 

has always spoken well of him. I have heard a great many people speak 

well of him. I heard his uncle speak well of him. My husband has told 

me what a fine, intelligent gentleman he was. 

MRS. J. 0. PARMELEE, sworn for the Defendant. 

My husband is a stockholder in the National Pencil Company. Mr. 

Frank's general character is very good. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have seen Mr. Frank at the jail twice. I have only come in contact 

with him once at the factory. I am a member of the Board of Sheltering 

Arms, and I have heard a great deal of Mr. Frank in matters of charity 

and in a social way. I have heard different people speak of him, a great 

many people. I have heard the Liebermans, the Montags, the Haases, 

Mrs. Bauer, Mr. Parmalee and the employees at the factory speak of him. 

[170] 

MISS IDA HAYS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work at the pencil factory on the fourth floor. I have known Mr. 
Frank for two years. His general character is good. I have known Con- 
ley for two years. His general character for truth and veracity is bad. 
I would not believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Conley borrowed money and promised to pay it back, but he didn't 
do it. We would get it after awhile. He tried to borrow money from me, 
but I refused to let him have it. 

MISS EULA MAY FLOWERS, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work on the second floor of the pencil factory. I have known Mr. 
Frank for three years. His general character is good. I have known 



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Conley for 2 years. His general character for truth and veracity is bad. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

His borrowing money and not paying it back is one thing. He has 
promised and he has never paid back anything he has ever borrowed 
from me. I had Mr. Gantt take it out of his envelope. I have never met 
Mr. Frank anywhere for any immoral purpose. 
MISS OPIE DICKERSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have worked at the pencil factory for 17 months. Mr. Frank's 
general character is good. I have never met Mr. Frank for any immor- 
al purpose. I have known Jim Conley ever since I have been at the fac- 
tory. His general character for truth and veracity is bad. I would not 
believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I know Mr. Darley and Mr. Wade Campbell. I don't remember if I 
was with them on the night of April 26th. I don't remember where I was. 
MRS. EMMA CLARK FREEMAN, sworn for the Defendant. 
I have worked at the pencil factory over four years. Mr. Frank's 
general character is good. I am a married woman. I have known Con- 
ley ever since he has been at the factory. His general character for 
truth and veracity is bad. I would not believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have never heard'any suggestion of any wrongdoing on the part of 
Mr. Frank, either in or out of the factory. I was forelady at the factory 
for about three years. 

[171] 

MISS SARAH BARNES, sworn for the Defendant. 

I worked at the pencil factory over four years. His character is 

good. I have never heard anything bad. He has been the best of men. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

No one has talked to me about what I was going to swear. I have 

told Mr. Arnold what I have told here. I never went with Mr. Frank 

for any immoral purpose anywhere. 

MISS IRENE JACKSON, sworn for the Defendant. 

I worked at the pencil factory for three years. So far as I know Mr. 

Frank's character was very well. I don't know anything about him. He 

never said anything to me. I have never met Mr. Frank at any time for 

any immoral purpose. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am the daughter of County Policeman Jackson. I never heard the 

girls say anything about him, except that they seemed to be afraid of 

him. They never would notice him at all. They would go to work when 

they saw him coming. Miss Emily Mayfield and I were undressing in the 

dressing room once when Mr. Frank came to the door. He looked, turned 

around and walked out. He just came to the door and pushed it open. He 

smiled or made some kind of face. Miss Mayfield had her top dress off 

and had her old dress in her hand to put it on. I told Mr. Darley I would 

not quit unless my father made me, and he said if the girls would stick to 

Frank they won't lose anything. I heard some remarks two or three 



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times about Mr. Frank going to the dressing room on different occasions, 
but I don't remember anything about it. The second time I heard of his 
going to the dressing room was when my sister was laying down there. 
She had her feet on a stool. She was dressed. I was in there at the time. 
He just walked in, and turned and walked out. Mr. Frank walked in the 
dressing room on Miss Mamie Kitchens, when I was in there. He never 
said anything the three times he walked in when I was there. The dress- 
ing room has a mirror and a few lockers for the foreladies. That's the 
only thing that I have ever seen Mr. Frank do, go in the dressing room 
and stare at the girls. I have heard them speak of other times when I 
was not there. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

My father made me quit, after the murder. There are two windows 
in the dressing room opening on Forsyth Street. I think there had been 
some complaints of the girls flirting through the windows. I have heard 
of some of the girls flirting through the windows. The orders were 

[172] 

against the girls flirting through the windows. Mr. Frank never came 
into the room at all, he pushed the door open and just looked. My sister 
and I were both dressed when Mr. Frank looked in the door. The other 
time he came in I was fixing to put on my street dress. I was not un- 
dressed. 

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know if Mr. Frank knew the girls were in there before he 
opened the door or not. It was the usual hour for them to be in there. He 
could have seen the girls register from the outer office, but not from the 
inner office. I have never heard any talk about Mr. Frank going around 
putting his hands on girls. I have never heard of his going out with any 
of the girls. My sister quit at the factory before Christmas. I have never 
flirted with anybody out of the window. I have heard them say that they 
didn't want the girls to flirt around the factory. I have heard Mr. Frank 
say that to Miss McClellan, after she told him that she knew of some of 
the girls flirting. 

MISS BESSIE FLEMING, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked as stenographer at Mr. Frank's office from April, 191 1, to 
December, 1911. Mr. Frank's character was unusually good. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I am just talking about my personal relations with him. I have never 
seen him do anything wrong there in the factory. He never made any 
advances to me or anyone else. I worked right in the same office with 
him. The foreladies came to the office, the other girls did not very much. 
I never did see any flirting. I never heard about any. Mr. Frank worked 
on his financial sheet in the afternoons, he didn't have time Saturday 
morning. I didn't stay there very often on Saturday afternoons, but I 
knew that he didn't have time to do it Saturday morning. I saw him on 
Saturdays during the mornings making out the financial sheet. The girls 
work by the hour and piece work. She has a right to go in there when 
she wants to dress to go out. 



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MRS. MATTE THOMPSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I have been there 
three years. Mr. Frank's general character is good. I have never heard 
anything against him. I have never met Mr. Frank anywhere or at any 
time for any immoral purpose. I have made complaint about girls flirt- 
ing out of the windows with men on the outside. After seven o'clock, the 
girls are not supposed to be in the dressing room. There is no toilet or 
bathtub in the dressing room. There is no lock on the door. 

[173] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

They were all complaining up there on the fourth floor about the 
girls flirting out of the window, and some of us elderly ladies put a stop 
to it by reporting it to Mr. Darley. The girls were not fast, but they 
would flirt. Mrs. Carson, I and some of the other ladies reported it to 
Mr. Darley last spring, about a year ago. The girls simply said they 
were standing at the windows, flirting out of the windows with men in the 
street. Girls did not go into the dressing room to rest, they would go to 
change their clothes before work time, and after finishing work. I have 
never heard any talk about Frank taking a girl off in a dark place and 
putting his arms around her. 
MISS IRENE CARSON, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked for fifteen months on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. 
I have known Mr. Frank during that time. His character is good. I am 
a sister of Miss Rebecca Carson, and a daughter of Mrs. E. H. Carson. I 
was with my sister on Whitehall Street on April 26th and recollect see- 
ing Mr. Frank there. I have never met Mr. Frank at any time or place 
for any immoral purpose. 

MRS. J. J. WARDLAW, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked at the pencil factory four years. I worked on the fourth 
floor. Mr. Frank's character is good. I have never met Mr. Frank at 
any time or place for any immoral purpose. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have never heard of any improper relation of Mr. Frank with any 
of the girls at the factory. I have never heard of his putting his arm 
around any girl on the street car, or going to the woods with them. 
LEO M. FRANK, the Defendant, made the following statement: 
Gentlemen of the Jury: In the year 1884, on the 17th day of April, 
I was born in Quero, Texas. At the age of three months, my parents took 
me to Brooklyn, New York, and I remained in my home until I came 
South, to Atlanta, to make my home here. I attended the public schools 
of Brooklyn, and prepared for college, in Pratt Institute, Brooklyn, New 
York. In the fall of 1902, 1 entered Cornell University, where I took the 
course in mechanical engineering, and graduated after your years, in 
June, 1906. I then accepted a position as draftsman with the B. F. Stur- 
tevant Company, of Hyde Park, Massachusetts. After remaining with 
this firm about 6 months, I returned once more to my home in Brooklyn, 
where I accepted a position as testing engineer and draftsman with the 
National Meter Company of Brooklyn, New York. I remained in this 



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[174] 

position until about the middle of October, 1907, when, at the invitation 
of some citizens of Atlanta, I came South to confer with them in refer- 
ence to the starting and operation of a pencil factory, to be located in 
Atlanta. After remaining here for about two weeks, I returned once 
more to New York, where I engaged passage and went to Europe. I re- 
mained in Europe nine months. During my sojourn abroad, I studied 
the pencil business, and looked after the erection and testing of the ma- 
chinery which had been previously contracted for. The first part of 
August, 1908, 1 returned once more to America, and immediately came 
South to Atlanta, which has remained my home ever since. I married 
in Atlanta, an Atlanta girl, Miss Lucile Selig. The major portion of my 
married life has been spent at the home of my parents in law, Mr. and 
Mrs. Selig, at 68 East Georgia Avenue. My married life has been excep- 
tionally happy-indeed, it has been the happiest days of my life. My 
duties as superintendent of the National Pencil Company were in gen- 
eral, as follows: I had charge of the technical and mechanical end of the 
factory, looking after the operations and seeing that the product was 
turned out in quality equal to the standard which is set by our competi- 
tors. I looked after -the installation of new machinery and the purchase 
of new machinery. In addition to that, I had charge of the office work at 
the Forsyth Street plant, and general supervision of the lead plant, which 
is situated on Bell Street. I looked after the purchase of the raw mate- 
rials which are used in the manufacture of pencils, kept up with the mar- 
ket of those materials, where the prices fluctuated, so that the purchases 
could be made to the best possible advantage. On Friday, April 15th, I 
arrived at the pencil factory on Forsyth Street, at about seven o'clock- 
my usual time. I immediately started in on my regular routine work, 
looking over papers that I had laid out the evening before, and attending 
to any other work that needed my special attention that morning. At 
about 9:30 1 went over to the office of the General Manager and Treas- 
urer, Mr. Sigmond Montag, whose office is at Montag Brothers, on Nel- 
son Street. I stayed over there a short time, got what papers and mail 
had arrived over there-all the mail for the Pencil Company comes over 
there to their office-I got that mail and brought it back to Forsyth St. 
I then separated the mail and continued along my usual routine duties 
in the office on Forsyth Street. At about eleven o'clock, Mr. Schiff 
handed me the pay roll books covering the plants at Forsyth Street and 
at Bell Street, for me to check over to see that the amounts and the ex- 
tensions were correct. Of course, this work has to be very carefully 
done, so that the proper amount of money is drawn from the bank. This 
checking took me until about 12:30 P. M., when I made out the amount on 
a slip of paper that I wished to have drawn from the bank, went over to 
Montag Brothers, had the checks drawn and signed by Mr. Sigmond 
Montag, after which I returned to Forsyth Street and got the leather 
bag in which I usually carry the money and coin from the bank, and got 
the slip on which I had written the various denominations in which I de- 
sired to have the pay roll made out, accompanied by Mr. Herbert Schiff, 



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my assistant, went to the Atlanta National Bank, where I had the checks 
cashed. Returning to the factory in company with Mr. Schiff, I placed 
this bag containing the money for the pay roll in the safe and locked it. 
At this time, my wife called for me and in her company and that of Mr. 
Schiff, I went over to the car and took my wife home to lunch. After 
lunch, I returned to the factory and took a tour for about an hour through 
the factory, after which I then assisted Mr. Schiff in checking over the 
amounts on the pay envelopes-checking the money against the dupli- 
cate slips that we had gotten from the bank, to see that the correct 
amount had been given us, and I helped Mr. Schiff checking over the 
money and in filling the envelopes. This took us approximately until a 
quarter to six, to fill the envelopes, seal them and place them in the box 
that we have over there, with two hundred pigeon holes, and which we 
call our pay-off box. While I was so occupied with Mr. Schiff in filling 
these envelopes, a young man by the name of Wright, who had helped us 
out as a clerk in the office during the past week, came in and I paid him 
in cash, as Mr. Schiff, I found, neglected to put his name on the pay roll; 
I just made out a ticket for the amount of money he drew and put it in 
the cash box and charged it to the cash box and not to the pay roll. At a 
quarter to six, payment of the help took place, Mr. Schiff taking all the 
envelopes that were due the help who had worked from April 1 8th to 
24th, inclusive, out to the pay roll window, which is entirery outside of 
either my inner office or the outer office and out in the hall beyond-a lit- 
tle window that we have built. I sat in my office checking over the amount 
of money which had been left over. This amount was equal-or should 
have been equal, to the amount that had been loaned out in advance to 
help and had been deducted when we were filling the envelopes. In check- 
ing this amount over-as near as I can recollect it, there was about $15 
-I noticed a shortage of about $1.20-something over a dollar, at any 
rate, and I kept checking to see if I couldn't find the shortage, going over 
the various deductions that had been made, but I couldn't locate it that 
evening. After the help had been paid off, during which time as I sat in 
my office, no one came into my office who asked me for a pay envelope or 
for the pay envelope of another. After the paying off of the help had 
taken place, Mr. Schiff returned and handed me the envelopes which 
were left over, bound with an elastic band, and I put them in the cash 
compartment-which is different from the cash box-a certain cash com- 
partment in the safe, the key to which is kept in my cash box. I placed 
them in the safe, and Mr. Schiff busied himself clearing up the books and 
the files and placing them in the safe. While he was doing that, I placed 
in the time clocks, the slips to be used next day. I took out the two time 
slips which were dated April 25th, which had been used by the help on 
Friday, April 25th, and took two slips out to the clock, the ends of which 
I creased down so that they would fit into the cylinder inside of the 
clocks; and I noticed that I had neglected to stamp the date on them, so 
I just wrote on them" April 26, 1913"'-in other words, I put the date of 
the day following, which is the way we usually do with the time clock. 



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After placing these slips in the clock and bringing those back in the of- 
fice, Mr. Schiff and myself left for home, it being about 6:30. I neglected 
to state that while I was sitting in the office, Mr. Schiff was paying off 
Newt Lee-these are the two time slips I took out- 
Gentlemen, as I was saying, these two slips that had April 26, 1913, 
written at the bottom are the two slips I put in the clock on the evening 
of Friday, April 25th, to be used on the day following, which, of course, 
was April 26th. I neglected to mention also, in going over my duties at 
the factory, that Mr. N. V. Darley was superintendent of labor and of 
manufacture, it fell to his duty to engage the help and to distribute the 
help throughout the plant, and to discharge the help in case it was nec- 
essary; it was also due to him whether their wages were raised or not. 
In other words, he was the man that came directly in contact with the 
help. Moreover, he saw that the goods progressed through the factory 
without stopping, easily, quickly and economically manufactured. On 
Friday evening, I got home at about 6:30, had my supper, washed up, 
then went with my wife to the residence of her uncle, Mr. Carl Wolfs- 
heimer, on Washington Street, where my wife and Mr. Wolfsheimer and 
his wife and myself played a game of auction bridge for the balance of 
the evening. My wife and I returned home and retired at about eleven 
o'clock. On Saturday April26th, I rose between seven and seven-thirty 
and leisurely washed and dressed, had my breakfast, caught a Washing- 
ton Street or Georgia Avenue car-I don't recall which-at the corner 
of Washington and Georgia Avenue, and arrived at the factory on For- 
syth Street, the Forsyth Street plant, at about 8:30, is my recollection. 
On my arrival at the factory, I found Mr. Holloway, the day watch- 
man, at his usual place, and I greeted him in my usual way; I found 
Alonzo Mann,the office boy, in the outer office, I took off my coat and hat 
and opened my desk and opened the safe, and assorted the various books 
and files and wire trays containing the various papers that were placed 
there the evening before, and distributed them in their proper places 
about the office. I then went out to the shipping room and conversed a 
few minutes with Mr. Irby, who at that time was shipping clerk, concern- 
ing the work which he was going to do that morning, though, to the best 
of my recollection, we did no shipping that day, due to the fact that the 
freight offices were notreceiving any shipments, due to its being a holiday. 
I returned to my office, and looked through the papers, and assorted out 
those which I was going to take over on my usual trip to the General 
Manager's office that morning; I then turned to the invoices (Defend- 
ant's Exhibits 25 to 34) covering shipments which were made by the 
pencil factory on Thursday, April 24th, and which were typewritten and 
figured out on Friday, April 25th, by Miss Eubanks, the stenographer 
who stays in my office; she had hurried through with her work that day, 
previous to going home, so she could spend the holiday in the country 
where she lived; I didn't get to checking over those invoices covering 

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these shipments on Friday, due to the fact that Mr. Schiff and 
myself were completely occupied the entire day until we left the fac- 
tory, with the pay roll, so naturally, as these invoices covering shipments 
which were made on April 25th, ought to have been sent to the customers, 
I got right to work in checking them. Now, I have those invoices here 
(Defendant's Exhibits 25 to 34); these papers have not been exhibited 
before, but I will explain them. You have seen some similar to these. Of 
all the mathematical work in the office of the pencil factory, this very 
operation, this very piece of work that I have now before me, is the most 
important, it is the invoice covering shipments that are sent to custom- 
ers, and it is very important that the prices be correct, that the amount 
of goods shipped agrees with the amount which is on the invoice, and 
that the terms are correct, and that the address is correct, and also in 
some cases, I don't know whether there is one like that here, there are 
freight deductions, all of which have to be very carefully checked over and 
looked into, because I know of nothing else that exasperates a customer 
more than to receive invoices that are incorrect; moreover, on this morn- 
ing, this operation of this work took me longer than it usually takes an 
ordinary person to complete the checking of the invoices, because usually 
one calls out and the other checks, but I did this work all by myself that 
morning, and as I went over these invoices, I noticed that Miss Eubanks, 
the day before, had evidently sacrificed accuracy to speed, and every one 
of them was wrong, so I had to go alone over the whole invoice, and I had 
to make the corrections as I went along, figure them out, extend them, 
make deductions for freight, if there were any to be made, and then get 
the total shipments, because, when these shipments were made on April 
24th, which was Thursday, this was the last day of our fiscal week, it 
was on this that I made that financial sheet which I make out every Sat- 
urday afternoon, as has been my custom, it is on this figure of total ship- 
ments I make that out, so necessarily it would be the total shipments for 
the week that had to be figured out, and I had to figure every invoice and 
arrange it in its entirety so I could get a figure that I would be able to 
use. The first order here is from Hilton, Hart & Kern Company, Detroit, 
Mich., here is the original order which is in the file of our office, here is 
the transcription which was made on March 28th, it hadn't been shipped 
until April 24th, this customer ordered 100 gross of No. 2 of a certain 
pencil stamped "The Packard Motor Car Company," 125 gross of No. 3 
and 50 gross of No. 4; those figures represent the grade or hardness of 
the lead in the pencils; we shipped 100 gross of No. 2, 1 1 1 1 
/4 gross of No. 

3 and 49 gross of No. 4, the amount of the shipment of No. 3 is short of 
the amount the customer ordered, therefore, there is a suspense shipment 
card attached to it, as you will notice, the first shipment on this order 
took place on April 24th, it was a special order and a special imprint on 
it, and therefore, the length of time, order received at the factory on 
March 1 8th. In invoicing shipments made by the Pencil Company, our 
method is as follows: We make out in triplicate, the first or original is 
a white sheet, and that goes to the customers; the second is a pink sheet 



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179 

and that goes over to the General Manager's office and is filed serially, 
that is, chronologically; one date on the top, and from that the charges 
are made on the ledger, and the last sheet or third sheet is a yellow sheet, 
which is here, those are placed in a file in my office, and are filed alpha- 
betically. These yellow sheets I have here are not the yellow sheets I 
had that day, because they have since been corrected, I am just taking 
the corrected sheets, I made the corrections. Miss Eubanks returned on 
Monday and saw the corrections I had made in pencil on the white sheets, 
and made another set of triplicates afterwards, and I presume made 
them correct, I was not there, and I don't know. These orders are re- 
spectively Hilton, Hart & Kern Company, L. W. Williams & Company 
of Fort Worth, Tex., the Fort Smith Paper Company of Fort Smith, 
Ark., S. 0. Barnum & Sons, Buffalo, N. Y., S. T. Warren & Company, 
South Clarke St., Chicago, 111., S. H. Kress Company, warehouse at 91 
Franklin St., New York, N. Y.; there is an order that we have to be par- 
ticularly careful with, because all these five and ten cent syndicates have 
a great deal of red tape. These invoices, though they were typed on 
April 25 th, Friday, were shipped on April 24th, and bear date at the top 
on which the shipment was made, irrespective of the date on which these 
are typewritten; in other words, the shipments took place April 24th, 
and that date is at the top typewritten, and a stamp by the office boy at 
the bottom, April 24th. Among other things that the S. H. Kress Com- 
pany demands is that on their orders, you must state whether or not it is 
complete, the number of the store, and by which railroad the shipment 
goes. Here is one from F. W. Woolworth & Company, Frankfort, Ind., 
take the following illustrations: Less 95 lbs., at 86 cents per hundred 
lbs., freight credit; in other words, we had to find out what the weight of 
that shipment was, and figure out the amount of credit that they were 
entitled to on the basis of 86 cents for every 100 lbs. shipped. Then here 
comes one to Gottlieb & Sons, one of our large distributors in New York, 
N. Y., they have a freight allowance of 86 per hundred lbs. also, and their 
shipment amounted to 618 lbs., on Thursday, April 24th. That was a 
shipment of throwouts, or jobs. 

I started on this work, as I said, and had gone into it in some detail, 
to show you the carefulness with which the work must be carried out, I 
was at work on this one at about 9 o'clock, as near as I remember, Mr. 
Darley and Mr. Wade Campbell, the inspector of the factory, came into 
the outer office, and I stopped what work I was doing that day on this 
work, and went to the outer office and chatted with Mr. Darley and Mr. 
Campbell for ten or fifteen minutes, and conversed with them, and joked 
with them, and while I was talking to them, I should figure about 9:15 
o'clock, a quarter after nine, Miss Mattie Smith came in and asked me 
for her pay envelope, and for that of her sister-in-law, and I went to the 
safe and unlocked it and got out the package of envelopes that Mr. Schiff 
had given me the evening before, and gave her the required two envel- 
opes, and placed the remaining envelopes that I got out, that were left 



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[179] 

over from the day previous, in my cash box, where I would have them 
handy in case others might come in, and I wanted to have them near at 
hand without having to jump up and go to the safe every time in order to 
get them; I keep my cash box in the lower drawer on the left hand side 
of my desk. After Miss Smith had gone away with the envelopes, a few 
minutes, Mr. Darley came back with the envelopes, and pointed out to 
me an error in one of them, either the sister-in-law of Miss Mattie Smith, 
she had gotten too much money, and when I had deducted the amount 
that was too much, that amount balanced the pay roll, the error in the 
pay roll that I had noticed the night before, and left about five or ten 
cents over; those things usually right themselves anyhow. I continued 
to work on those invoices, when I was interrupted by Mr. Lyons, Super- 
intendent of Montag Brothers, coming in, he brought me a pencil dis- 
play box that we call the Panama assortment box, and he left it with me, 
he seemed to be in a hurry, and I told him if he would wait for a minute 
I would go over to Montag Brothers with him, as I was going over there; 
and he stepped out to the outer office, and as soon as I come to a conveni- 
ent stopping place in the work, I put the papers I had made out to take 
with me in a folder, and put on my hat and coat and went to the outer of- 
fice, when I found that Mr. Lyons had already left. Mr. Darley left with 
me, about 9:35 or 9:40, and we passed out of the factory, and stopped at 
the corner of Hunter and Forsyth Streets, where we each had a drink at 
Cruickshank's soda water fount, where I bought a package of Favorite 
cigarettes, and after we had our drink, we conversed together there for 
some time, and I lighted a cigarette and told him good-bye, as he went in 
one direction, and I went on my way then to Montag Brothers, where I 
arrived, as nearly as may be, at 10 o'clock, or a little after; on entering 
Montag Brothers, I spoke to Mr. Sig Montag, the General Manager of 
the business, and then the papers which I collected, which lay on his 
desk, I took the papers out and transferred them into the folder, and 
took the other papers out, which I had in my folder, and distributed them 
at the proper places at Montag Brothers, I don't know just what papers 
they were, but I know there were several of them, and I went on chatting 
with Mr. Montag, and I spoke to Mr. Matthews, and Mr. Cross, of the 
Montag Brothers, and after that I spoke to Miss Hattie Hall, the Pencil 
Company's stenographer, who stays at Montag Brothers, and asked her 
to come over and help me that morning; as I have already told you, prac- 
tically every one of these invoices was wrong, and I wanted her to help 
me on that work, and in dictating the mail; in fact, I told her I had 
enough work to keep her busy that whole afternoon if she would agree 
to stay, but she said she didn't want to do that, she wanted to have at 
least half a holiday on Memorial Day. I then spoke to several of the 
Montag Brothers' force on business matters and other matters, and af- 
ter that I saw Harry Gottheimer, the sales manager of the National Pen- 
cil Company, and I spoke at some length with him in reference to several 
of his orders that were in work at the factory, there were two of his or- 
ders especially that he laid special stress on, as he said he desired to ship 



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[180] 

them right away, and I told him I didn't know how far along in process 
of manufacture the orders had proceeded, but if he would go back with 
me then I would be very glad to look for it, and then tell him when we 
could ship them, and he said he couldn't go right away, he was busy, but 
he would come a little later, and I told him I would be glad for him to 
come over later that morning or in the afternoon, as I would be there 
until about 1 o'clock in the morning, and after 3. I then took my folder 
and returned to Forsyth St. alone. On arrival at Forsyth St., I went to 
second or office floor, and I noticed the clock, it indicated 5 minutes after 
eleven. I saw Mr. Holloway there, and I told him he could go as soon as 
he got ready, and he told me he had some work to do for Harry Denham 
and Arthur White, who were doing some repair work up on the top floor, 
and he would do the work first. I then went into the office. I went in the 
outer office, and found Miss Hattie Hall, who had preceded me over from 
Montag's, and another lady who introduced herself to me as Mrs. Arthur 
White, and the office boy; Mrs. Arthur White wanted to see her husband, 
and I went into the inner office, and took off my coat and hat, and removed 
the papers which I had brought back from Montag Brothers in the folder, 
and put the folder away. It was about this time that I heard the elevator 
motor start up and the circular saw in the carpenter shop, which is right 
next to it, running. I heard it saw through some boards, which I sup- 
posed was the work that Mr. Holloway had referred to. I separated the 
orders from the letters which required answers, and took the other ma- 
terial, the other printed matter that didn't need immediate attention, I 
put that in various trays, and I think it was about this time that I con- 
cluded I would look and see how far along the reports were, which I use 
in getting up my financial report every Saturday afternoon, and to my 
surprise I found that the sheet which contains the record of pencils 
packed for the week didn't include the report for Thursday, the day the 
fiscal week ends; Mr. Schiff evidently, in the stress of getting up, figur- 
ing out and filling the envelopes for the pay roll on Friday, instead of, 
as usual, on Friday and half the day Saturday, had evidently not had 
enough time. I told Alonzo Mann, the office boy, to call up Mr. Schiff, 
and find out when he was coming down, and Alonzo told me the answer 
came back over the telephone that Mr. Schiff would be right down, so I 
didn't pay any more attention to that part of the work, because I ex- 
pected Mr. Schiff to come down any minute. It was about this time that 
Mrs. Emma Clarke Freeman and Miss Corinthia Hall, two of the girls 
who worked on the fourth floor, came in, and asked permission to go up- 
stairs and get Mrs. Freeman's coat, which I readily gave, and I told them 
at the same time to tell Arthur White that his wife was downstairs. A 
short time after they left my office, two gentlemen came in, one of them a 
Mr. Graham, and the other the father of a boy by the name of Earle Bur- 
dette; these two boys had gotten into some sort of trouble during the 
noon recess the day before, and were taken down to police headquarters, 
and of course didn't get their envelopes the night before, and I gave the 
required pay envelopes to the two fathers, and chatted with them at some 



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[181] 

length in reference to the trouble their boys had gotten into the day pre- 
vious. And just before they left the office, Mrs. Emma Clark Freeman 
and Miss Corinthia Hall came into my office and asked permission to use 
the telephone, and they started to the telephone, during which time these 
two gentlemen left my office. But previous to that, when these two gen- 
tlemen came in, I had gotten Miss Hattie Hall in and dictated what mail 
I had to give her, and she went out and was typewriting the mail; before 
these girls finished their telephoning, Miss Hattie Hall had finished the 
typewriting of those letters and brought them to my desk to read over 
and sign, which work I started. Miss Clark and Miss Hall left the office, 
as near as may be, at a quarter to twelve, and went out, and I started to 
work reading over the letters and signing the mail. I have the carbon 
copies (Defendant's Exhibit 8) of these letters which Miss Hall type- 
wrote for me that morning here, attached to the letters from the custom- 
ers, or the parties whose letter I was answering; they have been intro- 
duced, and have been identified. I see them here-Southern Bargain 
House, there was a letter from Shode-Lombard, dye makers, 1 8 Frank- 
lin Street, the American Die Lock Company, Newark, N. J., another let- 
ter to Shode-Lombard Company being in New York, one to Henry Diss- 
ton & Sons, in reference to a knife which they sent us to be tried out, a 
circular knife, one to J. B. McCrory, Five & Ten Cent Syndicate, one to 
the Pullman Company, of Chicago, 111., in reference to their special im- 
print pencils, which they were asking us to ship as soon as possible, one 
to A. J. Sassener, another die maker; these letters are copies of the ones 
I dictated that morning; I signed these letters, and while I was signing, 
ag Miss Hall brought these letters in to be signed, I gave her the orders 
(Defendant's Exhibits 14 to 24) which had been received by me that 
morning at Montag 's office, over at the General Manager's office, I gave 
her these orders to be acknowledged. I will explain our method of ac- 
knowledgment of orders in a few minutes. I continued signing the let- 
ters and separating the carbon copies from the letters, and putting them 
in various places, I folded the letters and sealed the letters, and of course 
I told Miss Hall I would post them myself. Miss Hall finished the work 
and started to leave when the 12 o'clock whistle blew, she left the office 
and returned, it look to me, almost immediately, calling into my office 
that she had forgotten something, and then she left for good. Then I 
started in, we transcribed, first we enter all orders into the house order 
book (Defendant's Exhibit 12), all these orders which Miss Hall had ac- 
knowledged, I entered in that book, and I will explain that matter in de- 
tail. There has been some question raised about this, but I believe I can 
make it very clear. Here is an order from Beutell Brothers Company 
(Defendant's Exhibit 32) ; the very first operation on an order that is re- 
ceived by the pencil factory at Forsyth Street in my office is the acknowl- 
edgment; that is the first operation, because the acknowledgment is the 
specific second part of the contract, the first part is when they send us 
the order; that is the party of the first part, and the party of the second 
part is when we write them an acknowledgment card and agree to fill the 



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order, and enter the order which they send us, and so necessarily, to sat- 
isfy our customers, it must be the very first thing that is done, and is the 
first thing. The acknowledgment stamp, which you have already seen 
here below, shows first two things; first, who acknowledges the order, 
and second, the date it was received in the office on Forsyth Street. Here 
is one from Beutell Brothers (Defendant's Exhibit 32); that bears the 
date April 23rd, up at the top; that was the date when Beutell Brothers 
in Dubuque, la., had that letter typewritten, we didn't know when they 
mailed it, but that is the day it was written, it was received at the Gen- 
eral Manager's office, might have been received Friday, on Friday April 
25th, after I had gotten the mail that day there, and remained there until 
April 26th, when I went over and got the mail again. Here is one from 
John Laurie & Sons, and here is one I think Mr. Dorsey did some ques- 
tioning about, because of the fact that up here at the top was 4-22, this 
order was written in pencil, of course it is written in pencil; this is an 
order from F. W. Woolworth & Company (Defendant's Exhibit 28), 
that is a Five & Ten Cent syndicate, as you know, probably the largest 
in the world, that has over 700 stores, and these stores would be so bulky 
for one office to handle that the 700 stores are divided into different 
groups or provinces, and in charge of each group there is a certain office; 
for instance, there is one at Toronto, for the Canadian stores; one in 
Buffalo, one in Boston, one in New York, there is one at Wilkesbarre, one 
at St. Louis, one at Chicago, and one at San Francisco. Now, this order, 
by looking at it, I can tell, because I have had reason to look into and 
know the system of orders used by this syndicate, and I most assuredly 
have to know it, you notice Chicago, 111., 4-22, down here, and also store 
No. 585 (Defendant's Exhibit 28), the Woolworth Company, 347 E. Main 
St., here again is DeKalb, 111. In other words, DeKalb, 111., is in the ju- 
risdiction of the Chicago office. These blanks are distributed among 
these various five and ten cent stores, and the manager of one store, 
when he wants to order goods, he finds his stock is getting a little low, he 
makes that out and sends his order in to the Chicago office, at the Chicago 
office, the buyer looks over it, and sees that the manager has carefully 
and economically ordered the goods, and then you will notice that little 
stamp punched through; you see up there, that says: "Valid, 4-23," in 
other words, of course, we couldn't have put that on there at our office, 
but the validation stamp, with 4-23, the date of it, shows it took a day to 
travel from DeKalb, 11., to Chicago, 111., and that stamp shows the vali- 
dation of the order on that date by the head office, and that order is then 
forwarded by the head office to us. Now, this order is usually made out 
by the Manager or by the clerk of the Manager or some one in that F. W. 
Woolworth store. Here is one from Wilkesbarre (Defendant's Exhibit 
29), itself, that is from the head office itself. Here is one from St. Joseph, 
Mo., (Defendant's Exhibit 25), via St. Louis, that bears the validation 
stamp of the St. Louis head office. You gentlemen understand these peo- 
ple are great big people, a great big syndicate, and they have to do their 
clerical work according to a system that is correct. Now, then, that was 



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[183] 
184 

the first operation on these orders after we separated them from the 
other mail, and we hand that on to our Superintendent. I am showing 
you about the acknowledgment stamp, because it is important first be- 
cause it shows the acknowledgment of the order, and who acknowledged 
it, and secondly, shows the date on which the orders were received at my 
office. To the best of my recollection, these acknowledgment cards were 
given to the office boy to post, after Miss Hall had made them out. 
Now, in reference to the work that I. did on these orders, starting 
here with order 7187 (Defendant's Exhibits 25 to 35), and continuing 
through 7197, that is not such an easy job as you would have been led to 
believe; in the first place, next to the serial number, there is a series of 
initials, and those initials stand for the salesman who is credited with 
the order; in other words, if a man at the end of the year wants to get 
certain commissions on orders that come in, we have to very carefully 
look over those orders to see to whom or to which salesman or to which 
commission house or which distributing agent that order is credited, so, 
therefore, it takes a good deal of judgment and knowledge to know just 
to which salesman to credit, and sometimes, I can't say that it was incor- 
rect that morning, but it might have been, sometimes I have to go through 
a world of papers to find just to whom a certain order is to be credited. 
Then I enter in (Defendant's Exhibit 12) the various orders here, too, 
the next column shows to whom the goods are to be shipped; of course 
that is not very difficult to do, that is just a mere copy. The store num- 
bers are put down in case the stores have numbers, and then one must 
look over the order; I notice that one of the orders is one to R. E. Kendall 
(Defendant's Exhibit 34), at Plum St., Cincinnati, 0., calling for a spe- 
cial, and that has to be noted in this column here, you will notice regular 
or special, notice here the word special out here opposite R. E. Kendall, 
that thing has to be very carefully noted also. Now, in this column (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 12) is the order number, and that order number is the 
customer's order number, to which we have to refer always when we ship 
that order. Now, in these cases like on these Woolworth orders, when 
there is no order number, we put down the date with the month, so in that 
way that gives it, 4-22, that was the date the order was made out, so we 
can absolutely refer to it; in this column (Defendant's Exhibit 12), is the 
shipping point and the date we are going to ship it, and in this column 
represents the date on which the order was received, and the month, 
which is April 26th, according to the acknowledgment, corresponding to 
the acknowledgment stamp. Now, after that work, after the order was 
acknowledged and entered in here (Defendant's Exhibit 12), the next 
step is the filling in on the proper place on this sheet (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 2), which has already been tendered and identified. Now, the work 
done by me on that day right here, that was Saturday, Saturday is the 
second day of the fiscal week, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tues- 
day, Wednesday and Thursday-Saturday is the second day, and you 
will notice, gentlemen, there are only two entries there (Defendant's Ex- 



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[184] 

hibit 7), the work not having been done since I left the factory, there are 
only two entries there, and the last entry is April 26th, which was Satur- 
day. Now, then, the information on this sheet is as follows: I go through 
the orders and find out the number of gross of pencils which our custom- 
ers order which fall in certain price groups, that is, to find the number of 
gross of pencils for which the pencil factory gets 60 cents a gross, and I 
put them down under the first column, the second under the column RI, 
which means rubber inserted, and for which we get an average price of 
80 cents, I go through the same thing and put the figures all out, in this 
case, it was 102; then we have a price group on which we get an average 
of $1.25, and it covers a range in price from $1.00 per gross to $1.40; 
there were 116 gross of such pencils ordered with these orders which were 
received that morning. The next price group are those on which we fig- 
ure on an average price of $1.75 a gross, and falling within those limits 
of $1.50 to $1.95 inclusive; in this case, there were 341/2 gross; then there 
is a group between $2.00 and $2.95, averaging $2.50, and there was 1001/2 
gross that day, then $3.00 and over, which we always figure at just $3.00, 
we have goods that we get $3.25 for, and some that we get $3.50 for, but 
we figure them all at $3.00, so it is a conservative estimate. The reason 
this is done is this; in the pencil business, just like in all manufacturing 
businesses, that is manufacturing an article that has to be turned out in 
large quantities, it behooves the sales department to sell as much of your 
high priced goods as possible, and as few of your cheap goods, and there- 
fore, if you know how many of the cheap goods and how many of the bet- 
ter grade of goods you are selling, it serves as a barometer on the class 
of goods that is being sold. You can see that this job takes quite a little 
figuring and quite a little judgment. 

After finishing that work, I went on to the transcription of these or- 
ders to these requisitions (Defendant's Exhibits 25 to 35), and notwith- 
standing an answer that has been made, I wrote these requisitions my- 
self. That is my handwriting and you can read every one of them 
through. Here is one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant's Exhibit 25), I 
wrote that one, and another one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant's Exhibit 
26), I wrote that one, and another one F. W. Woolworth (Defendant's 
Exhibit 29). Here is one 5 and 10 Cent Store, Sault Ste Marie (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 31), I wrote that one, and here is F. W. Woolworth, 
DeKalb, 111. (Defendant's Exhibit 28), and Logansport, Ind. (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 27). That is all my handwriting; excepting the amounts 
that are placed down here under the dates when the shipment of these 
orders were made, which is in the handwriting of my assistant, Mr. 
Schiff. This part, the amount, date, numbers, addresses, salesman, date 
April 26th, and the order number, taking the date in lieu of the order 
number, as I explained previously, that is all my handwriting-every- 
thing except that amount there and the subsequent date, that is in my 
handwriting and the work on all of those was done on the morning of 
April 26th. 

[185] 



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186 

Miss Hall left my office on her way home at this time, and to the best 
of my information there were in the building Arthur White and Harry 
Denham and Arthur White's wife on the top floor. To the best of my 
knowledge, it must have been from ten to fifteen minutes after Miss Hall 
left my office, when this little girl, whom I afterwards found to be Mary 
Phagan, entered my office and asked for her pay envelope. I asked for 
her number and she told me; I went to the cash box and took her envel- 
ope out and handed it to her, identifying the envelope by the number. 
She left my office and apparently had gotten as far as the door from my 
office leading to the outer office, when she evidently stopped and asked 
me if the metal had arrived, and I told her no. She continued on her way 
out, and I heard the sound of her footsteps as she went away. It was a 
few moments after she asked me this question that I had an impression 
of a female voice saying something; I don't know which way it came 
from; just passed away and I had that impression. This little girl had 
evidently worked in the metal department by her question and had been 
laid off owing to the fact that some metal that had been ordered had not 
arrived at the factory; hence, her question. I only recognized this little 
girl from having seen her around the plant and did not know her name, 
simply identifying her envelope from her having called her number to 
me. 

She had left the plant hardly five minutes when Lemmie Quinn, the 
foreman of the plant, came in and told me that I could not keep him away 
from the factory, even though it was a holiday; at which I smiled and 
kept on working. He first asked me if Mr. Schiff had come down and I 
told him he had not and he turned around and left. I continued work un- 
til I finished this work and these requisitions and I looked at my watch 
and noticed that it was a quarter to one. I called my home up on the tele- 
phone, for I knew that my wife and my mother-in-law were going to the 
matinee and I wanted to know when they would have lunch. I got my 
house and Minola answered the phone and she answered me back that 
they would have lunch immediately and for me to come right on home. I 
then gathered my papers together and went upstairs to see the boys on 
the top floor. This must have been, since I had just looked at my watch, 
10 minutes to one. I noticed in the evidence of one of the witnesses, Mrs. 
Arthur White, she states it was 12:35 that she passed by and saw me. 
That is possibly true; I have no recollection about it; perhaps her recol- 
lection is better than mine; I have no remembrance of it; however, I ex- 
pect that is so. When I arrived up stairs I saw Arthur White and Harry 
Denham who had been working up there and Mr. White's wife. I asked 
them if they were ready to go and they said they had enough work to keep 
them several hours. I noticed that they had laid out some work and I had 
to see what work they had done and were going to do. I asked Mr. 
White's wife if she was going or would stay there as I would be obliged 
to lock up the factory, and Mrs. White said, no, she would go then. I 
went down and gathered up my papers and locked my desk and went 

[186] 



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around and washed my hands and put on my hat and coat and locked the 
inner door to my office and locked the doors to the street and started to 
go home. 

Now, gentlemen, to the best of my recollection from the time the 
whistle blew for twelve o'clock until after a quarter to one when I went 
up stairs and spoke to Arthur White and Harry Denham, to the best of 
my recollection, I did not stir out of the inner office; but it is possible that 
in order to answer a call of nature or to urinate I may have gone to the 
toilet. Those are things that a man does unconsciously and cannot tell 
how many times nor when he does it. Now, sitting in my office at my 
desk, it is impossible for me to see out into the outer hall when the safe 
door is open, as it was that morning, and not only is it impossible for me 
to see out, but it is impossible for people to see in and see me there. 
I continued on up Forsyth to Alabama and down Alabama to White- 
hall where I waited a few minutes for a car, and after a few minutes a 
Georgia Avenue car came along; I took it and arrived home at about 
1:20. When I arrived at home, I found that my wife and my mother-in- 
law were eating their dinner, and my father-in-law had just sat down and 
started his dinner. I sat down to my dinner and before I had taken any- 
thing, I turned in my chair to the telephone, which is right behind me and 
called up my brother-in-law to tell him that on account of some work I 
had to do at the factory, I would be unable to go with him, he having in- 
vited me to go with him out to the ball game. I succeeded in getting his 
residence and his cook answered the phone and told me that Mr. Ursen- 
bach had not come back home. I told her to give him a message for me, 
that I would be unable to go with him. I turned around and continued 
eating my lunch, and after a few minutes my wife and mother-in-law fin- 
ished their dinner and left and told me good-bye. My father-in-law and 
myself continued eating our dinner, Minola McKnight serving us. After 
finishing dinner, my father-in-law said he would go out in the back yard 
to look after his chickens and I lighted a cigarette and laid down. After 
a few minutes I got up and walked up Georgia Avenue to get a car. I 
missed the ten minutes to two car and I looked up and saw in front of 
Mr. Wolfsheimer's residence, Mrs. Michael, an aunt of my wife who lives 
in Athens, and there were several ladies there and I went up there to see 
them and after a few minutes Mrs. Wolfsheimer came out of the house 
and I waited there until I saw the Washington Street car coming and I 
ran up and saw that I could catch the car. I got on the car and talked to 
Mr. Loeb on the way to town. The car got to a point about the intersec- 
tion of Washington Street and Hunter Street and the fire engine house 
and there was a couple of cars stalled up ahead of us, the cars were wait- 
ing there to see the memorial parade; they were all banked up. After it 
stood there a few minutes as I did not want to wait, I told Mr. Loeb that 
I was going to get out and go on as I had work to do. So I went on down 
Hunter Street, going in the direction of Whitehall and when I got down 

[187] 

to the corner of Whitehall and Hunter, the parade had started to come 

around and I could not get around at all and I had to stay there fifteen or 



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twenty minutes and see the parade. Then I walked on down Whitehall 
on the side of M. Rich & Bros, 's store towards Brown and Allen; when I 
got in front of M. Rich & Bros.' store, I stood there between half past 2 
and few minutes to 3 o'clock until the parade passed entirely; then I 
crossed the street and went on down to Jacobs and went in and pur- 
chased twenty-five cents worth of cigars. I then left the store and went 
on down Alabama Street to Forsyth Street and down Forsyth Street to 
the factory, I unlocked the street door and then unlocked the inner door 
and left it open and went on upstairs to tell the boys that I had come back 
and wanted to know if they were ready to go, and at that time they were 
preparing to leave. I went immediately down to my office and opened 
the safe and my desk and hung up my coat and hat and started to work 
on the financial report, which I will explain. Mr. Schiff had not come 
down and there was additional work for me to do. 
In a few minutes after I started to work on the financial sheet (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 2), which I am going to take up in a few minutes. I 
heard the bell ring on the time clock outside and Arthur White and Harry 
Denham came into the office and Arthur White borrowed $2.00 from me 
in advance on his wages. I had gotten to work on the financial sheet, fig- 
uring it out, when I happened to go out to the lavatory and on returning 
to the office, the door pointed out directly in front, I noticed Newt Lee, 
the watchman, coming from towards the head of the stairs, coming to- 
wards me. I looked at the clock and told him the night before to come 
back at 4 o'clock for I expected to go to the base ball game. At that time 
Newt Lee came along and greeted me and offered me a banana out of a 
yellow bag which he carried, which I presume contained bananas; I de- 
clined the banana and told him that I had no way of letting him know 
sooner that I was to be there at work and that I had changed my mind 
about going to the ball game. I told him that he could go if he wanted to 
or he could amuse himself in any way he saw fit for an hour and a half, 
but to be sure and be back by half past six o'clock. He went off down 
the stair case leading out and I returned to my office. Now, in reference 
to Newt Lee, the watchman, the first night he came there to watch, I per- 
sonally took him around the plant, first, second and third floors and into 
the basement, and told him that he would be required, that it was his duty 
to go over that entire building every half hour; not only to completely 
tour the upper four floors but to go down to the basement, and I specially 
stressed the point that that dust bin along here was one of the most dan- 
gerous places for a fire and I wanted him to be sure and go back there 
every half hour and be careful how he held his lantern. I told him it was 
a part of his duty to look after and lock that back door and he fully un- 
derstood it, and I showed him the cut-off for the electric current and told 
him in case of fire that ought to be pulled so no fireman coming in would 
be electrocuted. I explained everything to him in detail and told him he 

[188] 

was to make that tour every half hour and stamp it on the time card and 

that that included the basement of the building. 

Now, this sheet here is the factory record (Defendant's Exhibit 7), 



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containing the lists of the pencils in stock and the amount of each and 
every number; the amount of each and every one of our pencils which we 
manufacture at the end of any given week. There are no names there. 
We make the entries on this sheet by trade notes. Here is a sample case 
containing the pencils which are manufactured at the Forsyth Street 
plant. That is just as an explanation of what these figures are. 
Well, I expect you have gotten enough of a glance at them for you 
know that there are a great many pencils and a great many colors, all 
sorts and styles; all sorts of tips, all sorts of rubbers, all sorts of stamps 
-I expect there are 140 pencils in that roll. That shows the variety of 
goods we manufacture. We not only have certain set numbers that we 
manufacture, but we will manufacture any pencil to order for any cus- 
tomer who desires a sufficient number of a special pencil, into a grade 
similar to our own pencil. Now, this pencil sheet (Def. 's Ex. 7) when I 
looked at it about half past eleven or thereabouts on Saturday morning, 
was incomplete. It had the entry for Thursday, April 24th, omitted. 
Mr. Schiff had entered the production for April 18th, 19th, 22nd and 
23rd, but he had omitted the entry for the 24th, and the 24th not being 
there, of course it was not totaled or headed, so it became necessary to 
look in this bunch of daily reports (Defendant's Exhibits 4a, 4b, 4c, 4d) 
which was handed in every day by the packing forelady, sort out the va- 
rious pencils noted on there, and place them in their proper places. Be- 
fore proceeding further on that, I want to call your attention to the fact 
that we use this sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 7) for two weeks. You no- 
tice two weeks ending down there April 27th, April 17th, and one ending 
the week later, April 24th. Mr. Schiff, I notice, put April 17th at the top 
and the date corresponds to the entries here on the side; these are the 
dates alongside of each entry. Now, where we have any special pencil, 
as a general rule-for instance, take two 10-X special up there; we manu- 
facture two 10-X special for the Cadillac Motor Company. Now, there 
is a 660-X pencil (Defendant's Exhibit 7); that 660-X pencil we call 
Panama, but in this entry it is called Cracker-Jack. Now, here is an- 
other 660-X special (Defendant's Exhibit 7), ours being Panama and 
this the Universal 660-X special. In other words, gentlemen, we put the 
name of the customer, if he wants business in a sufficient quantity. Well, 
I had to go through this report for Thursday (Defendant's Exhibit 4a), 
handed in by Miss Flowers, the forelady of the packing department, as 
she said, on Friday; I had to go through it and make the entries. Now, 
after I made the entries, I had to total each number for itself; that is, the 
number of 10-X, 20-X, 30-X, etc. Now, I notice that both of the expert 
accountants who got on the stand, pointed out two errors. While those 
errors are trivial, yet there is enough of human pride in me to explain 

[189] 

that those errors were not mine. Those errors, one of 1 1/2 gross and one 
of one gross, in totalling up, these totals here on the 18th and 19th- 
those entries were made by Mr. Schiff. I don't expect he meant to make 
an error, but they happen to be in his handwriting. Those totals were 
already down there for the various days when I got the sheet and I al- 



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ways take them as correct without any checking of his figures. The only 
figures that I check are my own figures. I add my correct figures to his 
figures and, of course, not having checked the figures, I had to assume he 
entered it correctly, so I would not have known it. As I say, my usual 
method is to take his figures as correct per se. Now, after I entered them 
in the total, the next thing I did was to make out the job sheet; the job or 
throw-outs. Now in regard to these jobs, if I recall it correctly, was the 
only error that the expert accountant found in my work on the financial 
sheet for that day, but it really was not an error, as I will show you. He 
didn't know my method of doing that, and therefore, he could not know 
the error. When I explain to you fully the method in which I arrived at 
these figures you also will see they are not in error. Now among the pack- 
ing reports that are handed into the office just like Miss Eula May handed 
this (Defendant's Exhibit 4a) in from the packing room proper, there is 
another room where pencils are packed, viz.: the department under the 
foreladyship of Miss Fannie Atherton, head of the job department. The 
jobs are our seconds or throw-outs for which we get less money, of 
course, than for the first. You see that Fannie A. (Defendant's Exhibit 
4b), that is Fannie Atherton. That is the job department. Now, I took 
each of those job sheets (Defendant's Exhibit 4b) and separated them 
from the rest of those sheets, finding out how many jobs of the various 
kinds were packed that week. Now, this sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 3) 
shows that there were 12 different kinds of jobs packed that day. Each 
of them, you will notice, has a different price. That is the number of 
jobs 0-95, or the number of job 1 14 (Defendant's Exhibit 3) ; that is the 
number of the job, not the amount, but the number by which it is sold. 
Out here (Defendant's Exhibit 3) you see the amount of that job which 
was packed; 180 gross, 1 gross, six gross, 24 gross, etc. Then you will 
find the actual price we received for each. Then I make the extensions 
and find the number of gross of pencils, 180 gross at 40c, of course, is $72 
(Defendant's Exhibit 3). In other words, there is the actual number of 
jobs packed that day, the price we actually got for them, and the exten- 
sions are accurate and the totals are correct; the total amount of gross 
is totaled correctly, the total gross packed and the total amount of the 
value of those gross are the two figures that are put on that financial re- 
port (Defendant's Exhibit 2), 792 gross jobs, $396.75 (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 3), being absolutely correct, but in getting the average price, you 
notice 50.1 cents down below here (Defendant's Exhibit 3), I just worked 
it approximately, because nobody cares if it costs so small a fraction- 
the average price of those jobs, 50.1 cents, and six hundredths-that six 
hundredths was so small I couldn't handle it, so I stopped at the first dec- 
imal. Now, in arriving at the total number of gross and the total value 

[190] 

of pencils, which are the two figures really important, I divided one by 
the other. I also used, in getting up the data for the financial sheet here, 
by the way, one of the most important sheets is this sheet here. 
(Defendant's Exhibit 3). It looks very small, but the work connected 
with it is very large. Now, some of the items that appear on here are 



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gotten from the reports which are handed in by the various forewomen. 
Now, you saw on the stand this morning Mr. Godfrey Winekauf, the su- 
perintendent of the lead plant; there is a report (Defendant's Exhibit 4c) 
of the amount of lead delivered that week, two pages of it; the different 
kinds of lead, No. 10 lead, No. 940, No. 2 and No. 930, and so on. Now, 
here is a pencil with a little rubber stuck on the end; we only put six 
inches of lead in that, and stick rubber in the rest. Now here (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 4d) is the report of L. A. Quinn, foreman of the tipping 
plant. He reports on this the amount of work of the various machines, 
that is, the large eyelet machine, the small eyelet machine and the other 
machines. Then he notates the amount of the various tips used that he 
had made that week. Now, we have, I expect, 22 different kinds of tips, 
and one of them is a re-tip, and we never count a re-tip as a production. 
Now, this was made out (Defendant's Exhibit 7) for the week ending 
April 24 by Mr. Irby, the shipping clerk, that is, the amount of gross of 
pencils that he ships day by day. There were shipped 266 gross the first 
day, which was Friday in this case, Friday the 18th of April, 562 gross 
the 2nd day, which was Saturday, a half day, the 19th of April; 784 gross 
on Monday which was April 21; 1232 gross (that was an exceptional day) 
were shipped on Tuesday April 22nd; 572 gross shipped on Wednesday, 
April 23rd, and 957 gross, also a very large day, shipped on April 24th, 
a total of 4374 gross. Now, there is another little slip of paper (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 4aa) here that requires one of the most complicated calcu- 
lations of this entire financial, and I will explain it. It shows the repack, 
and I notice an error on it here, it says here 4-17, when it ought to be 
4-18; in other words, it goes from 4-17 through 4-24. That repack is got- 
ten up by Miss Eula May; you will notice it is 0. K'd by her. Miss Eula 
May Flowers, the forelady, packed that; that is the amount of pencils 
used in our assortment boxes or display boxes. That is one of the tricks 
of the trade, when we have some slow mover, some pencil that doesn't 
move very fast, we take something that is fancy and put some new bright 
looking pencils with them, with these slow movers. That is a trick that 
all manufacturers use, and in packing these assortment boxes, which are 
packed under the direction of Miss Flowers, we send into the shipping 
room and get some pencils which have already been packed, pencils that 
have been on the shelf a year for all we know, and bring them in and un- 
pack them and re-pack them in the display box. Therefore, it is very 
necessary in figuring out the financial sheet to notice in detail the amount 
of goods packed and just how many of those pencils had already been 
figured on some past financial report. We don't want to record it twice, 
or else our totals will be incorrect. Therefore, this little slip showing 
the amount of goods which were repacked is very necessary. That was 

[191] 

192 

figured by me, and was figured by me on that Saturday afternoon, April 

22nd. There were 18 gross of 35-X pencils selling for $1.25; 18 gross for 

$22.50. It shows right here, I figured that out. That is my writing right 

down there. Eighteen gross 35-X, $1.25, $22.50; 10 gross of 930-X figur- 



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ing at $25.00; that added up, as you will see, to $70.00. In other words, 
there were 40 gross of pencils, 36 gross of which sell in our medium price 
goods; 86 gross 35-X; 10 gross 930-X, $2.50, that is a high price goods. 
Therefore, the repack for that week was 36 gross medium priced goods 
and 10 gross of high price goods. I will show you now where the $70.00 
is and where the'36 gross is, and where the 10 gross figured in the finan- 
cial sheet. There is a little sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 7a) stuck up here 
in the corner attached to the record-the factory record of pencils manu- 
factured during that week. That shows the production, divided into the 
following classes (Defendant's Exhibit 7a) ; cheap goods, the very cheap- 
est we make, outside of jobs, those we figure at 60 cents a gross. Then 
there is the rubber insert, those we figure 85 cents a gross, and then the 
job and then the medium; the medium being all goods up to a certain 
grade that contains the cheap lead, and the good being all those that con- 
tain a better class of lead. In this case, Mr. Schiff had entered it up to 
and through Wednesday, and had failed to enter Thursday, and I had to 
enter Thursday, and to figure it. This sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 7a) 
shows the total of the three classes of goods packed from day to day. 
Now, I have had very few clerks at Forsyth Street, or anywhere else, for 
that matter, who could make out this sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 2) suc- 
cessfully and accurately. It involves a great deal of work and one has to 
exercise exceptional care and accuracy in making it out. You notice that 
the gross production here (Defendant's Exhibit 2) is 27651/2. That gives 
the net production. The gross production is nothing more than the addi- 
tion, the total addition, the proven addition of those sheets containing 
-the pencils packed. This other little sheet (Def. 's Ex. 7a) behind here 
represents the pencils packed the week of April 17-that week's produc- 
tion. Now, this little sheet I had to work on, showing pencils that were 
repacked, going into display boxes, and the numbers, and subtracted that 
from total amount 46 from 27651/2, which leaves 27191/2; in other words, I 
just deducted the amount that had been taken out of the stock room and 
repacked from the total amount that was stated to be packed, showing 
the amount of repacked goods. Now all I had to do was to copy that off, 
it had been figured once. The value of the repack was $70.00; that was 
mere copying. Now, the rubber insert entries, I got those that morning, 
the number of pencils packed during the week ending April 24th; that is 
Thursday, April 24th; that insert rubber is a rubber stuck directly into 
wood with a metal tip or ferret to hold it in. I have to go through all of 
this data, that being an awfully tedious job, not a hard job, but very 
tedious; it eats up time. I had to go through each one of these, and not 
only have to see the number, but I have to know whether it is rubber in- 
sert or what it is, and then I put that down on a piece of scratch paper, 
and place it down here, in this case it was 720 gross. Then the rubber 

[192] 

tipping, that means tipped with rubber; that is the rubber that is used 
on the medium priced pencils that have the medium prices, we ship with 
the cheap shipping. I had to go through this operation again, a tedious 
job, and it eats up time; it is not hard, but it is tedious. I had to go 



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through that again, to find out the amount of tip rubber that was used 
on this amount of pencils. Then I had to go through the good pencils. 
Now, it has been insinuated that some of these items, especially this item, 
if I remember correctly-that when I have gotten two of the items, I can 
add it all up and subtract from the total to get the third by deduction, 
but that is not so. Of the pencils that still remain unaccounted for, there 
are many pencils that don't take rubber at all. There are jobs that don't 
take rubber on them, plain common pencils, going pencils that don't have 
rubber on them at all, and I have to go through all of that operation, that 
tedious operation again that eats up so much time. Then there is the 
lead of the various kinds that we use; there is a good lead and cheap lead, 
the large lead and the thick or carbon lead, and the copying lead. That 
same operation has to be gone through with again. Now this sheet (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 3) (exhibiting) is where the expert accountant said I 
made a mistake. I had to go through with each of those pencils to see if 
they were cheap rubber or if they were good lead or copying lead. So I 
had to go through this same operation and re-add them to see that the 
addition is correct before I can arrive at the proper figure. The same 
way to find the good lead and the cheap lead, the large lead and the copy- 
ing lead; that operation had to be gone through in detail with each and 
every one of those, and the same with each of the boxes, and that is a 
tough job. Some of the pencils are packed in one gross boxes and some 
in half-gross boxes, and, as I say, we use a display box, and there are 
pencils that are put in individual boxes, and we have to go through care- 
fully to see the pencils that have been packed for the whole week, and it 
is a very tedious job. Now in these boxes there is another calculation in- 
volved, and then I have to find the assortment boxes, but that is easily 
gotten. Then I have to find out whether they are half-gross boxes or one- 
gross boxes, and then reduce them to the basis of boxes that cost us two 
cents apiece; reduce them to the basis of the ordinary box that we paid 
two cents a box. After finding out all the boxes, then I have to reduce 
that to some common factor, so I can make the multiplication in figuring 
out the cost at two cents. That involves quite a mathematical manipula- 
tion. Then I come to the skeleton. Skeletons are no more than just a 
trade name. They are just little cardboard tiers to keep one pencil away 
from the other, that is all a skeleton is. I have to go through and find 
out which pencils are skeletons. If it is a cheap pencil they are just tied 
up with a cord, and there are pencils in a bunch, and there are pencils 
that we don't use the skeleton with. That must all be gone through and 
gotten correctly, or it will be of no worth. Then comes the tip delivery, 
which is gotten from this report from Mr. Lemmie Quinn that I showed 
you before. Then there is another entry on this sheet of the tips used 
and I can give you a clear explanation of the manner that I arrive at that. 

[193] 

You can't use tips when you don't have some rubber stuck in it, so I just 
had to go through the rubber used to find that. Then we have what we 
call ends; there are a few gross of them there. Then the wrappers. Pen- 
cils that are packed in the individual one-dozen cartons don't take wrap- 



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pers; they are in a box. Pencils that are packed in the display boxes 
don't take a wrapper; they just stick up in a hole by themselves. The 
cheap pencils are tied with a cord and they don't take any wrapper, so 
the same operation, the same tedious operation, had to be gone through 
with that to get at the number of wrappers, and then the different num- 
ber of gross and the number of carton boxes used in the same way. On 
the right hand side of this sheet you notice the deliveries. There is the 
lead delivery from the Bell Street plant and the Forsyth Street plant. 
This doesn't mean the amount of lead used in the pencils packed for this 
week only, but it shows the amount of our lead plant delivery, for infor- 
mation. Then the slat delivery, that is not worked out that week; that 
is not worked out simply because that is Mr. Schiffs duty to work that 
out and that is a very tedious and long job and when I started in to do 
that I couldn't find the sheet showing the different deliveries of slats 
from the mill, so I let that go, intending to put that in on Monday, but on 
Monday following I was at the police station. 
I took out from this job sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 3), the correct 
amount of gross packed-791 as figured there-correct value $396.75, as 
shown on this sheet, and the average is that one, that I didn't carry out 
to two decimal places; I didn't carry it to but one. Then from the pay 
roll book I got the pay roll for Forsyth Street and Bell Street, and then 
as a separate item took out from the pay roll book total, separate the 
machine shop, which that week was $70.00. The shipments (Defendant's 
Exhibit 6), were figured for the week ending April 24th on this sheet, as 
far as I-oh, you notice the entry of the 24th; those are those invoices, 
the first piece of work that I explained to you, sitting up there; I ex- 
plained that from the chair, and couldn't come down here; that's the 
piece of work that I explained to you how we did it in triplicate. That's 
the work that I did that morning, and completed, as I told you, that each 
of the invoices was wrong, and I had to correct them as I went along, 
simply because I needed it on the financial, and there's where I entered 
it on the sheet as shipments; (Defendant's Exhibit 6) ; I needed that so 
as to make the total; and that's where I entered it-(Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 6-shipments, the 24th, on this sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 6), dur- 
ing the afternoon $1,245.57, and totalling it up, the pencil factory shipped 
that week $5,438.78. Those amounts you see are entered right in there, 
and the amount of shipments is gotten from this report $4,374.00 handed 
in by Mr. Irby, and the value of the shipments are gotten from this sheet, 
the last entry on which I had to make. 

Then the orders received. The entry of the orders received that 
day involved absolutely no more work on my part than the mere transfer 

[194] 

of the entries. On this big sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 2), I have here 
the orders received are in terms of "total gross" and "total value," and 
we need that to compare the amount of shipments with the amount of 
orders we are receiving to see whether we are shipping more than we are 
receiving, or receiving more than we are shipping. That amount is given 
here. Down there it tells you the total amount of dollars and cents of all 



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the orders received, total gross, and the average. The average is impor- 
tant, though it is usually taken over on a separate paper on Friday morn- 
ing to Mr. Sig Montag so that he knows how sales for the week have come 
out long before he receives the financial. He didn't receive the financial 
usually until Monday morning, when I go over there. 
Now one of the most intricate operations in the making up of the 
financial report is the working out of the figures on that pencil sheet, as 
shown by that torn little old sheet here, (Defendant's Exhibit 3), that 
data sheet. Now with this in hand, and with that pencil sheet record of 
pencils packed (Defendant's Exhibit 7), the financial report is made out. 
This sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 2), the financial, I may say is the child 
of my own brain, because I got it up. The first one that ever was made 
I made out, and the fact that there is a certain blue line here, and a cer- 
tain red line there, and a black line there, and certain printing on it, is 
due to me, because I got this sheet up myself. On one side you notice 
" Expense, " or two main headings " Expense," " Materials." Together 
they comprise the expense for the week. On the other side, like the debit 
and credit sides of a ledger, is the "Value," " Gross Value" of the goods, 
which have been packed up during a given week. Down here below you 
will notice "Less Repacked." You remember the repacked, that I told 
you about, the pencils taken out of stock and re-packed to make them 
move better. That value is deducted, so that it won't allow error to en- 
ter into this figure. Then we take off 12 per cent, down at the bottom. 
That 12 per cent, allows for freight allowances, cash discounts, and pos- 
sibly other allowances, and gives us the net value or the net amount of 
money for those pencils, which the treasury of the Pencil Company re- 
ceives in the last analysis. 

On the other side is the materials, the cost of materials, that went 
into the making of those pencils, based on the amounts and kinds of pen- 
cils, which, of course, as in this instance, comes from the data sheet. 
The first item under "Expense" items is "Labor," and the labor is 
divided, as you all know, into the two classes, direct and indirect. The 
direct labor is that which goes directly into the making of the pencils 
themselves, and the indirect constitutes the supervising, shipping, office, 
clerical help, and so forth. These figures are brought directly from the 
pay roll. The indirect labor, however-as in this case $155.00-is an 
empirical figure, a figure, which we have found out by experiment to be 
the correct figure, and we arbitrarily decide on it, and keep it until such 

[195] 

time as we think we ought to change it and then change. The burden 
that a business has to carry is the fixed charges, the expense that it car- 
ries, irrespective of whether it will produce two gross or 200,000 gross, 
like rent, insurance, light, heat, power and the sales department. The 
sales department expense usually goes on whether the salesman sells lit- 
tle or big bills; his salary goes on and his expense goes on. Rent, heat, 
light, power, sales department men, and all that, is figured out, as you 
could find by looking back, continuously from week to week, and there is 
no work other than jotting it down to figure in this total. 



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The repair sundries is also arbitrary at $150.00. The machine shop, 
however, is available. It appears alongside of "Investment." "Invest- 
ment" is crossed out, and "Machine Shop" written in. There is a rea- 
son for that. The time was at the inception of our business when every 
machine built by us was so much additional added to the value of our 
plant. In other words, it was like investing more money in it, in the 
plant, but the time came, when we quit making machines, and then we 
simply kept them in repair, and we charged that to expense, crossing out 
"Investment" and putting down "Machine Shop" as an expense item. 
The material is arrived at on the basis, gross, net. The gross basis 
is the total amount of pencils packed, as per the packing reports handed 
in by Miss Eula May Flowers, and the net basis is the total amount, total 
gross, packed by report of Miss Eula May Flowers less the amount of re- 
packed, of which I have spoken. In this case the gross amount was 2,85 1 
gross, net 2,8301/2 gross, the smaller being the net figure. The slats are 
figured at 22 cents per gross, and that's simply taking the 2,8301/2 gross 
down to the slat item, and multiplying that by 22 cents, and putting it 
down to the materials. Then from the figures derived from the packing 
reports we figure rubbers used according to the character or grade of 
the pencil manufactured; 61/2 cents cheapest, 9 cents medium, 14 cents 
high grade. Then comes the tips. The tips is simple, gotten by adding 
together the amounts of rubber used in ferrules, the medium rubber, and 
the better class of rubber. In other words, it's gotten by adding together 
the rubber at 9 cents a gross, and the rubber at 14 cents a gross, and add- 
ing together the total amount of gross used. And you see it says "mate- 
rials," and it is reckoned at 10 cents; in other words, the materials used 
in making the tips in that tip plant we figured at 10 cents a gross, and 
the labor is included in that pay roll item up above. Then there is 25 
gross of these medium ends. 

Then the lead, which is used, is taken from this sheet, multiplying 
15 cents for the better lead and 10 cents for the cheaper lead. Then 5 
cents a gross has been figured out after months of careful keeping track 
of what we use to include such materials as shellac, alcohol, lacquer, ani- 
line, waxent, and oils-that's oils used in manufacture, not for lubrica- 
tion of transmission or machinery. It also includes that haskolene corn- 

[196] 

pound, of which we have heard so much. That's included in this 5 cents 
per gross. 

Then comes the boxes at 2 cents a gross, then assortment boxes at 
an average of 4 cents a gross; then come wrappers at one cent a gross; 
that is the number of wrappers used in wrapping up one gross of pencils 
are worth one cent. Then cartons, boxes, holding one gross of pencils, 
figured at 28 or 18 cents. Then down below "pay roll Bell Street, 
$175.21." Then show what was delivered, just a plain copy of what I 
have on this sheet. I have been looking at the sheet for the week ending 
April 17th, but it is practically the same way. I have here down on the 
bottom of this financial (Defendant's Exhibit 2) made out on the 26th 
what's delivered, good and cheap. There is no entry there. You will re- 



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member I said I didn't work that out. I put that out there preparatory 
to working that out Monday morning before I would take it over. Then 
it tells tips delivered from Mr. Quinn's report. 
Now on the right side you will notice this entry, "Better grades, 
gross, net." From this small sheet we get total of better grades, 710 
gross. Then right below it says 700 gross net. There are 710 gross, 
and on that repacked sheet I called out there 10 gross good goods 
repacked, therefore the difference of 10 gross. Then we look on down 
this pencil sheet, cut down each and every one of the items accordingly 
-you will notice in some places I marked some items, "142 1-2 2-10-X" 
-and so on down the sheet. In this case there were 29 or 30 different 
items, all of which had to have the prices correctly traced down, exten- 
sions correctly made, checked, re-checked, added up, and totaled, and 
checked back, and there pack had to be deducted, after which the 12 per 
cent, had to be figured out, and deducted, giving net value of the produc- 
tion for that week. Then we take the net value of the production that 
week, and from it take the total amount of expense, and materials used, 
the expense including labor, rent, light, insurance, and so forth, and, if 
this expense is greater than the value of the pencils, then the factory has 
operated that week at a loss. In this case a deficit shows, showing that 
that week we operated at a loss. The shipments were gotten off down 
there from this sheet. Those are my initials on the top. 
Now, besides the making of this large sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 
2) proper, there is in the making of the financial report three other 
sheets, that I usually make out. Now one of those little sheets, that are 
usually made-and I want to call your attention to the fact that I didn't 
typewrite this; I just filled these figures in; I am no typewriter; I cannot 
operate a machine; I have two or three dozen of those every now and 
then typewritten together, and keep them in blank in my desk; I didn't 
typewrite those on that day, or any other day; I just filled those figures 
in those blanks-this is the sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 11), called the 
comparison sheet between 1912 and 1913, which is nothing more nor less 

[197] 

than taking the vital figures, the vital statistics of one week of 1913, and 
comparing them with the same week of 1912, to see how we have im- 
proved or gone backward every week one year apart. Of course the put- 
ting of these down involves going back into the proper week in this 
folder, and getting that out. However, I noticed the week in 1912 corre- 
sponding with the week of April 24th in 1913, was a week of 45 hours in- 
stead of 50 hours. 

In addition to that, I made out two condensed financial reports, (De- 
fendant's Exhibits 43 and 46), that is, give the main figures. I didn't 
typewrite this sheet, either; as I say, I cannot operate a machine. I just 
filled in the figures, which have to be picked out from this large financial 
report, fill them in for the week ending-that does not show the date it 
was made, but it shows for the week ending April 24th, the production 
in dollars, the total expenditure in dollars, the result, which in this week, 
as I wrote in "deficit"! in dollars; shows the shipments, which in this 



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week were very good, and the orders received, which were gotten from 
that great big sheet. These were enough figures for a director or stock- 
holder of the company to receive, and are practically the only figures he 
is interested in. He don't care to hear how much we make of this pencil 
or that pencil. The only thing he is interested in is dividends, if we are 
able to give them to him. One of these sheets I always make out and mail 
to Mr. Oscar Pappenheimer (Defendant's Exhibit 46), who was formerly 
a member of the Board of Directors, though he is not now. The other 
sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 43), I always invariably send to my uncle, 
Mr. M. Frank, no matter where he is, who is president of the company. 
On this particular Saturday, my uncle had during the week ending April 
26th, gone to New York, stopping at Hotel McAlpin, preparatory to tak- 
ing his annual trip abroad for his health, he being a sick, feeble old man. 
When I made out that financial, I really made out two small ones, and I 
put one (Defendant's Exhibit 46), in an envelope, addressed it to Mr. 
Oscar Pappenheimer, care Southern Furniture Company, Atlanta, Geor- 
gia; the other one (Defendant's Exhibit 43) was put in this envelope, 
which you see right here, and sent to my uncle, Mr. M. Frank, together 
with a letter, (Defendant's Exhibit 42), which I wrote him, after having 
finished the financial sheet, the sheet showing the comparison of vital 
statistics for the same weeks of 1912 and 1913, and after having com- 
pleted these two small condensed financial reports. I wrote that letter 
(Defendant's Exhibit 42) to my uncle, and I sent him that report (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 43), and also sent a price list, to which I referred in 
that letter; hence the size of the envelope, (Defendant's Exhibit 44). I 
am going to show you one of those price lists. Its a great big sheet when 
it is folded up, it is much too large for the ordinary size; hence the rea- 
son I used a great big envelope like that. I addressed that letter to my 
uncle, Mr. M. Frank, care Hotel McAlpin, Greely Square, New York, 
N. Y., as has been identified. 
This ends practically the work on the financial. After finishing the 

[198] 

financial, I wrote these letters, and sealed them, and placed them aside to 
post. After finishing the financial, I folded this big report up (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 2), and put it with the comparison sheet (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 1 1) for the week of 1912 and the same week of 1913 in a large envel- 
ope, addressed it to Mr. Sig Montag, General Manager of the Pencil Com- 
pany, and put it under my inkwell, intending to take it over on the morn- 
ing of Monday following. 

I then came to the checking up of the cash on hand and the balancing 
of the cash book. For some reason or other there are no similar entries 
in this book after those of that date. That's my handwriting (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 40), and I did that work on Saturday afternoon, April 26th, 
as near as might be between the hours of 5:30 and 5 minutes to 6:00. 
Now in checking up it didn't take me an hour and a half. I did that in 
about 25 minutes. In checking up the cash the first thing to do is to open 
the cash box. We have a little coin bag in there, and there was in cash 
actually on hand that day about $30.54; that's all there was. That's all 



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there could have been, and that $30.54 was to the best of my recollection 
composed of about three dollars in one dollar bills, about four or five dol- 
lars in quarters and halves, and the balance dimes, nickels, and one-cent 
pieces. That's some job to count that, not only to count it, but to sepa- 
rate the different denominations, and stack it up into stacks of a dollar. 
I did that, stacked them up, checked them, and re-checked them, and I 
took a piece of paper-haven't that paper-and jotted down the amounts. 
To that had to be added the amount that was loaned. In this case there 
was only one loan, that which I loaned to Mr. White that afternoon. That 
would eventually come back to the cash box. If there had been any errors 
in the pay roll the night previous, I would have had to make it good from 
the cash box, and it would have gone under the item of" extra pay roll." 
I don't know whether that occurred this week or not. However, I added 
up the total cash I actually had on hand then-$28.54-and that $2.00 
loaned to Mr. White brought it up to $30.54, the actual amount which the 
cash book phowed. Now on the left-hand side of this book, the debits for 
the week between April 21st, which was Monday, previous to April 26th, 
it being a record simply of the petty cash used by us, showed that we had 
a balance on hand the Monday morning previous of $39.85. On April 
22nd we drew a check for $15.00, and on April 24th we drew another one 
for $15.00. I mean by that that we would draw a check for $15,00, and go 
over to Mr. Sig Montag to sign it; so that during that week all we got 
from the treasury was $30.00, and $39.85 already on hand, made $69.85, 
which was the total amount we had to account for. When we spend, of 
course we credit it. There once was a time, when, as we paid out money, 
we would write it down on this book. We found it was much better, how- 
ever, to keep a little voucher book (Defendant's Exhibit 10) and let each 
and every person sign for money they got, and we have not only this 
record (Defendant's Exhibit 40) but this record on the receipt book (De- 
fendant's Exhibit 10). The first entry on this is 15 cents there-on the 

[199] 

19th of April the National Pencil Company gave 15 cents to Newt Lee 
for kerosene (Defendant's Exhibit 10). Newt Lee's name is there, but 
he didn't write it. I wrote it; my initials are on it. He was there when 
he got the money, but I thought he couldn't write, and I signed his name. 
Whenever I sign anybody's name, my initials are under it. The next 
item is 75 cents for typewriter rent (Defendant's Exhibit 10) ; next item 
$2.00 drayage 24th of April. That is Truman McCrary's receipt-he 
has a very legible handwriting, and one of the little stamps stamped on 
there. The next item is for cases; some negro signed his name down 
there. So on throughout the book (Defendant's Exhibit 10), cases, ex- 
press, drayage, postage, parcels post, etc. Now, after counting the 
money, finding how much actual cash there was in the cash box, the next 
thing I do is to take this little voucher book, and lumped the different 
items that were all alike together. This sheet (Defendant's Exhibit 41) 
has been identified and explained, and you notice that there were four 
items of drayage grouped together, the total being $6.70. I just extend 
that over to the right there $6.70. Then I don't have to put drayage 



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down in this book (Defendant's Exhibit 40) four times; just make one 
entry of drayage for the four times we paid drayage together, which 
gives the same total, and makes the book a great deal neater. So on 
throughout, five items of cases, two items of postage, two items of par- 
cels post, one item of two weeks' rent on an extra typewriter, 45 cents 
for supplies for Mr. Schneegas' department, foreman on the third floor, 
85 cents for the payment of a very small bill to King Hardware Com- 
pany, $1 1.50 to a tinsmith for a small job he had done, 5 cents for thread, 
and ten cents for carfare one item. Then this young man, Harold 
Wright, of whom I spoke, omitted from the pay roll. I added this up, 
and that was $39.31, and transferred it from here (Defendant's Exhibit 
41) to there (Defendant's Exhibit 40). I then made the balance in the 
usual way, checking it against the money on hand, that I had in the cash 
box that night, and after checking and re-checking it, and finding no 
money missing from any source that we could trace, found that it was 
$4.34 short of the cash box, which was due to shortage in pay roll in the 
past three months. 
4:35 P.M. 

I finished this work that I have just outlined at about five minutes to 
six, and I proceeded to take out the clock strips from the clock which 
were used that day and replace them. I won't show you these slips, but 
the slips that I put in that night were stamped with a blue ink, with a 
rubber dating stamp, "April 28th (Defendant's Exhibit 1), at the bot- 
tom, opposite the word "date." Now, in reference to these time slips 
and the reason that the date April 28th was put on these slips, which was 
put in the clocks that night-Saturday night-no one was coming down 
to the factory on Sunday, as far as I knew, or as far as custom was, to 
put the slips into the clocks, and, therefore, we had to put the slips into 

[200] 

the clock dated with the date on which the help were coming into the 
factory to go about their regular duties and register on the Monday 
following, which, in this case was April 28th. Now on one of these slips, 
Newt Lee would register his punches Saturday night, and on Sunday 
night he would register his punches on the other. His punches on Mon- 
day night would be registered on two new slips that would be put into 
clock on Monday night. As I was putting these time slips into the clock, 
as mentioned, I saw Newt Lee coming up the stairs, and looking at the 
clocks, it was as near as may be six o'clock-looking straight at the clock; 
I finished putting the slip in and went back to wash up, and as I was 
washing, I heard Newt Lee ring the bell on the clock when he registered 
his first punch for the night, and he went down stairs to the front door to 
await my departure. After washing, I went down stairs-I put on my 
hat and coat-got my hat and top coat and went down stairs to the front 
door. As I opened the front door, I saw outside on the street, on the 
street side of the door, Newt Lee in conversation with Mr. J. M. Gantt, 
a man that I had let go from the office two weeks previous. They seemed 
to be in discussion, and Newt Lee told me that Mr. Gantt wanted to go 
back up into the factory, and he had refused him admission, because his 



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instructions were for no one to go back into the factory after he went 
out, unless he got contrary instructions from Mr. Darley or myself. I 
spoke to Mr. Gantt, and asked him what he wanted, he said he had a 
couple of pairs of shoes, black pair and tan pair, in the shipping room. 
I told Newt Lee it would be alright to pass Gantt in, and Gantt went in, 
Newt Lee closed the door, locking it after him-I heard the bolt turn in 
the door. I then walked up Forsyth Street to Alabama, down Alabama 
to Broad Street, where I posted the two letters, one to my uncle, Mr. M. 
Frank and one to Mr. Pappenheimer, a few minutes after six, and con- 
tinued on my way down to Jacobs' Whitehall and Alabama Street store, 
where I went in and got a drink at the soda fount, and bought my wife a 
box of candy. I then caught the Georgia Avenue car and arrived home 
about 6:25. I sat looking at the paper until about 6:30 when I called up 
at the factory to find out if Mr. Gantt had left. I called up at 6:30 be- 
cause I expected Newt Lee would be punching the clock on the half hour 
and would be near enough to the telephone to hear it and answer it at 
that time. I couldn't get Newt Lee then, so I sat in the hall reading un- 
til seven o'clock, when I again called the factory, this time I was success- 
ful in getting Newt Lee and asked him if Mr. Gantt had gone again, he 
says, "Yes," I asked if everything else was alright at the factory; it was, 
and then I hung up. I sat down and had supper, and after supper, I 
phoned over to my brother-in-law, Mr. Ursenbach, to find out if he would 
be at home that evening, I desired to call on him, but he said he had an- 
other engagement, so I decided to stay home, and I did stay home read- 
ing either a newspaper or the Metropolitan magazine that night. About 
eight o'clock I saw Minola pass out on her way home. That evening, my 
parents in law, Mr. and Mrs. Emil Selig, had company, and among those 
present were Mr. and Mrs. Morris Goldstein, Mr. and Mrs. M. Marcus, 

[201] 

Mrs. A. E. Marcus and Mrs. Ike Strauss; Mr. Ike Strauss came in much 
later, something after ten o'clock, I believe. I sat reading in the hall 
until about a quarter to ten, when I lighted the gas water heater prepar- 
atory to taking a bath, and then continued reading in the hall; at 10:30 
I turned out the gas, went into the dining room, bade them all good night, 
and went upstairs to take my bath, a few minutes later my wife followed 
me upstairs. 

(Here the jury took a recess). 

I believe I was taking a bath when you went out-on Saturday 
night; and after finishing my bath, I laid out my linen to be used next 
day, my wife changed the buttons from my old shirt to the shirt I was to 
wear the following morning, and I retired about eleven o'clock. The 
next day, Sunday, April 27th, I was awakened at something before seven 
o'clock, by the telephone ringing. I got out of bed-was tight asleep, it 
awakened me-but I got out of bed, put on a bath robe and went down to 
answer the telephone, and a man' s voice spoke to me over the phone and 
said-I afterwards found out this man that spoke to me was City Detec- 
tive Starnes-said "Is this Mr. Frank, superintendent of the National 
Pencil Company ?" I says "Yes, sir," he says, "I want you to come 



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down to the factory right away," I says, "What's the trouble, has there 
been a fire?" He says, "No, a tragedy, I want you to come down right 
away; " I says, "All right," he says," I'll send an automobile for you," 
I says, "All right," and hung up and went upstairs to dress. I was in 
the midst of dressing to go with the people who should come for me in the 
automobile, when the automobile drove up, the bell rang and my wife 
went down stairs to answer the door. She had on-just had a night dress 
with a robe over it. I followed my wife-I wasn't completely dressed at 
that time-didn't have my trousers or shirt on, and as soon as I could 
get together-get my trousers and shirt on-I went down stairs-fol- 
lowed my wife in a minute or two. I asked them what the trouble was, 
and the man who I afterwards found out was detective Black, hung his 
head and didn't say anything. Now, at this point, these two wit- 
nesses, Mr. Rogers and Mr. Black differ with me on the place where the 
conversation occurred-I say, to the best of my recollection, it occurred 
right there in the house in front of my wife; they say it occurred just as 
I left the house in the automobile; but be that as it may, this is the con- 
versation: They asked me did I know Mary Phagan, and I told them I 
didn't, they then said to me, didn't a little girl with long hair hanging 
down her back come up to your office yesterday sometime for her money 
-a little girl who works in the tipping plant?" I says, "Yes, I do re 
member such a girl coming up to my office, that worked in the tipping 
room, but I didn't know her name was Mary Phagan." "Well, we want 
you to come down right away with us to the factory;" and I finished 
dressing, and as they had said they would bring me right away back, I 
didn't have breakfast, but went right on with them in the automobile, 
made the trip to the undertaking establishment very quickly-I mean, 

[202] 

they made the trip down town very quickly, and stopped at the corner of 
Mitchell and Pryor Streets, told me they were going to take me to the 
undertaker 's first, that they wanted me to see the body and see if I could 
identify the little girl. I went with them to the undertaking establish- 
ment, andone of the two men asked the attendant to show us the way into 
where the body was, and the attendant went down a long, dark passage- 
way with Mr. Rogers following, then I came, and Black brought up the 
rear; we walked down this long passageway until we got to a place that 
was apparently the door to a small room-very dark in there, the attend- 
ant went in and suddenly switched on the electric light, and I saw the 
body of the little girl. Mr. Rogers walked in the room and stood to my 
right, inside of the room, I stood right in the door, leaning up against the 
right facing of the door, and Mr. Black was to the left, leaning on the 
left facing, but a little to my rear, and the attendant, whose name I have 
since learned was Mr. Gheesling, was on the opposite side of the little 
cooling table to where I stood-in other words, the table was between 
him and me; he removed the sheet which was covering the body, and took 
the head in his hands, turned it over, put his finger exactly where the 
wound in the left side of the head was located-put his finger right on it; 
I noticed the hands and arms of the little girl were very dirty-blue and 



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ground with dirt and cinders, the nostrils and mouth-the mouth being 
open-nostrils and mouth just full of saw-dust and swollen, and there 
was a deep scratch over the left eye on the forehead; about the neck there 
was twine-a piece of cord similar to that which is used at the pencil fac- 
tory and also a piece of white rag. After looking at the body, I identified 
that little girl as the one that had been up shortly after noon the day pre- 
vious and got her money from me. We then left the undertaking estab- 
lishment, got in the automobile and rode over to the pencil factory. Just 
as we arrived opposite the pencil factory, I saw Mr. Darley going into 
the front door of the pencil factory with another man, whose name I 
didn't know; we went up to the second floor, the office floor, I went into the 
inner office, hung up my hat, and in the inner office I saw the night watch- 
man, Newt Lee, in the custody of an officer, who I think was detective 
Starnes-the man who had phoned me. I then unlocked the safe and 
took out the pay roll book and found that it was true that a little girl by 
the name of Mary Phagan did work in the metal plant, and that she was 
due to draw $1.20, the pay roll book showed that, and as the detective had 
told me that someone had identified the body of that little girl as that of 
Mary Phagan, there could be no question but what it was one and the 
same girl. The detectives told me then they wanted to take me down in 
the basement and show me exactly where the girl's body was found, and 
the other paraphernalia that they found strewed about; and I went to 
the elevator box-the switch box, so that I could turn on the current, and 
found it open. In reference to that switch box being open or shut-it 
was open on that occasion, however-I had given instructions to the fac- 
tory to keep it open, and those instructions were given because a member 
of the fire department had gone through all that part of the city, and the 

[203] 

National Pencil Company, among others, and told us that no switch box, 
no box in which an electric switch was situated, could be locked up, but 
had to be open, so it could be easily accessible in case of fire, so they 
wouldn't run any risk of electrocuting anybody, or if they wanted to 
move quickly, they could throw it on and start the elevator-you couldn't 
lock it up, the firemen wouldn't know where the key was. However, I 
turned on the switch, started the motor, which runs the elevator, going, 
then Mr. Darley and a half dozen more of us and the detectives got on 
the elevator; I got on the elevator and I started to pull the rope to start 
the elevator to going, and it seemed to be caught, and I couldn't move it, 
I couldn't move it with a straight pull, and couldn't get it loose, so I 
jumped out, we all got off, and I asked Mr. Darley to try his hand-he's 
a great deal larger man and a great deal stronger man than I was-so he 
was successful in getting it loose-it seemed like the chain which runs 
down in the basement had slipped a cog and gotten out of gear and needed 
somebody to force it back; however, Mr. Darley was successful in get- 
ting it loose, and it started up, and I got on and the detectives got on and 
I caught hold of the rope and it worked alright. 
In the basement, the officers showed us just about where the body 
was found, just beyond the partition of the Clark Woodenware Company, 



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and in behind the door to the dust bin, they showed us where they found 
the hat and slipper on the trash pile, and they showed us where the back 
door, where the door to the rear was opened about 18 inches. After look- 
ing about the basement, we all went back upstairs and Mr. Darley and 
myself got some cords and some nails and a hammer and went down the 
basement again to lock up the back door, so that we could seal the factory 
from the back and nobody would enter. After returning upstairs, Mr. 
Darley and myself accompanied Chief Lanford on a tour of inspection 
through the three upper floors of the factory, to the second floor, to the 
third floor and to the fourth floor, we looked into each bin, and each par- 
tition, and each dressing room and each work room, and even passed 
through the metal room and looked into that very dressing room that 
has figured so prominently in this trial, and neither Mr. Darley nor my- 
self noticed anything peculiar on that floor, nor did Sergeant Lanford, 
Chief of the Atlanta detectives, notice anything peculiar. We then re- 
turned to the front, and took out of the clock the slip on which Newt Lee 
had punched the evening previous, and that clock slip, of course was 
dated April 28th (Defendant's Exhibit 1). 
I removed the clock slip from the clock, and in the center of the 
sheet, between the top and bottom, I remember the No. 133 and the num- 
ber 134, 1 wrote on it "Taken out 8:26 A. M." (Defendant's Exhibit 1), 
and two lines under it, with a casual look at that slip, you can't see it. 
I can see it. When looking casually at that slip (Defendant's Ex- 
hibit 1), you see nothing, and by the way, this sheet has been identified, it 

[204] 

is the one to which reference has been made so many times, and if you 
will look at it, you will see the date, April 28th, which we put on there on 
the evening of Saturday, April 26th, but if you will look opposite those 
numbers 133 and 134 (Defendant's Exhibit 1), and look very carefully, 
you can see where there has been erased from it what I put on there that 
morning in pencil to identify it, the words "taken out 8-26," and two 
lines, which it seems has been erased, but they couldn't erase it carefully 
enough, they even erased some of the printed line which runs across that 
sheet. This is the sheet that I took out on Sunday morning, and looked 
at the clock to notice what time it was, and I laid it up against the dial of 
the clock, the glass face of the clock, and wrote down there the time which 
the clock then registered. I told them the sheet was just like you see it 
there, and I brought it to the office and Chief Lanford put it in his pocket; 
I then went into the office and got another time slip and dated it April 
28th, similar to this one which was taken out, and which one it would re- 
place, and I put it back into the time clock to be used by the night watch- 
man that night and by the help when they came to work on Monday morn- 
ing. After taking this slip out, Mr. Darley and myself casually looked 
over the slip to see if there were any errors, and we noticed over there 
that no successive numbers had been skipped, that is, the numbers on 
that slip are arranged successively, one, two and three, and the time 
alongside of each one, and there was no single line skipped, but we didn't 
notice the actual time shown by the punch, we only noticed that the sue- 



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cessive punches were made at the time which the punches themselves 
showed. After putting a new slip in the clock, we all went out of the fac- 
tory and went downstairs and locked the door, and I was going to go 
down to the office, to police headquarters, because the officers said they 
wanted to show me some notes which they said were found near the body 
and the padlock and staple which they showed me had been withdrawn, 
and which they said had been taken down to the station the first time 
they had Newt Lee down there. 

Now, gentlemen, I have heard a great deal, and so have you, in this 
trial, about nervousness, about how nervous I was that morning. Gen- 
tlemen, I was nervous, I was very nervous, I was completely unstrung, 
I will admit it; imagine, awakened out of my sound sleep, and a morning 
run down in the cool of the morning in an automobile driven at top speed, 
without any food or breakfast, rushing into a dark passageway, coming 
into a darkened room, and then suddenly an electric light flashed on, and 
to see the sight that was presented by that poor little child; why, it was 
a sight that was enough to drive a man to distraction; that was a sight 
that would have made a stone melt; and then it is suspicious, because a 
man who is ordinary flesh and blood should show signs of nervousness. 
Just imagine that little girl, in the first blush of young womanhood, had 
had her life so cruelly snuffed out, might a man not be nervous who 
looked at such a sight? Of course I was nervous; any man would be ner- 
vous if he was a man. We went with the officers in the automobile, Mr. 

[205] 

Rogers was at the driving wheel, and Mr. Darley sat next to him, I sat on 
Mr. Darley's lap, and in the back was Newt Lee and two officers. We 
rode to headquarters very quickly and on arrival there Mr. Darley and 
I went up to Chief Lanford's office where I sat and talked and answered 
every one of their questions freely and frankly, and discussed the mat- 
ter in general with them, trying to aid and to help them in any way that 
I could. It seemed that, that morning the notes were not readily acces- 
sible, or for some other reason I didn't get to see them, so I told them on 
leaving there that I would come back that afternoon, which I ultimately 
did; after staying there a few minutes, Mr. Darley and myself left, and 
inasmuch as Mr. Darley hadn't seen the body of the little girl, we went 
over to Bloomfield's on Pryor Street and Mitchell, and when we went in- 
to the establishment, they told us somebody was busy with the body at 
that time and we couldn't see it, and we started to leave, when we met a 
certain party with whom we made arrangements to watch the building, 
because Newt Lee was in custody at that time. Mr. Darley and I then 
went over to Montag Brothers to see if any of the Montags had come 
down town that morning, we arrived at their place, and found the same 
was locked, and that nobody was down there. We walked from Montag's 
place on Nelson Street down to Mitchell and Forsyth Streets, where I 
bade Mr. Darley good-bye, and I walked down Mitchell Street to Pryor, 
where I caught a Georgia Avenue car and rode to the house of Mr. Sig 
Montag, our General Manager, corner of Glenn and Pryor Streets, and 
called on Mr. Montag and discussed with him at length and in detail what 



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I had seen that morning and what the detectives had to say. After my 
conversation with him, I returned to my home at about a quarter to 
eleven, my home was 68 E. Georgia Avenue; I washed up and had my 
breakfast in company with my wife, in the dining room, and while I was 
eating breakfast, I told my wife of the experience I had had that morn- 
ing. After I finished my breakfast, I left the house and went around to 
the home of Mr. Wolfsheimer, and at Mrs. Wolfsheimer's house we 
found quite a company of people, and the conversation turned largely 
on what I had seen that morning; also, among those who were present, 
were Mrs. L. G. Cohen, Mrs. M. G. Michael, Mrs. Carl Wolfsheimer, 
Julian Michael, Philip Michael, Miss Helen Michael, Miss Virginia Sil- 
verman, Miss May Lou Liebman, Julian Loeb and Herman Loeb. After 
staying there about an hour with my wife, I went in her company to visit 
the home of my brother-in-law, A. E. Marcus, whose home is situated on 
Washington Street opposite the Orphans' Home; on our arrival there, 
the nurse Lucy told us that no one was at home, and we could find them 
probably at the home of Mrs. Ursenbach; we then went over to the Ur- 
senbach house, which is situated on the corner of Washington and Pul- 
liam Streets, and visited at that place, and saw Mr. and Mrs. A. E. Mar- 
cus, Mr. and Mrs. Chas. Ursenbach, Harold Marcus, Mr. and Mrs. Ben 
Wiseberg. Of course, the conversation was about the little girl that had 
been killed in the pencil factory basement that morning, of which fhey 
had heard, and we discussed it generally, although it was at that time as 

[206] 

much a puzzle to me as it was apparently to everybody else. After stay- 
ing here until about one o'clock or a little after, I returned with my wife 
to my home at 68 E. Georgia Avenue, where we took our lunch together 
with my parents-in-law, with Minola McKnight serving. After dinner, 
read a little while, and finally caught the ten minutes of three Georgia 
Avenue car going down town. I got off at the corner of Pryor and 
Mitchell Streets, and went into the undertaker Bloomfield 's, where I saw 
a large crowd of people nearby on the outside; on entering I found quite 
a number of people who were working at the pencil factory, among whom 
were Mr. Schiff, Herbert Schiff, N. V. Darley, Wade Campbell, Alonzo 
Mann, Mr. Stelker, and Mr. Zyganke. I chatted with them a few min- 
utes, and I noticed that the people who were going in to see the body were 
standing in line and moving in, and that others from the factory were 
going in and I thought I would go in too and pay my respects, and I went 
and stood in line, and went into the room again and staid a few minutes 
in the mortuary chamber; the little girl had been cleaned up, her hair 
had all been cleaned and smoothed out, and there was a nice white sheet 
over the rest of her body. I returned to the front of the undertaking es- 
tablishment, and stood chatting with Herbert Schiff and Mr. Darley un- 
til the party with whom we had made arrangements came up, and we gave 
them the keys with instructions as to watching the plant that night. Then 
Mr. Darley and Mr. Schiff and myself went down to police headquarters 
and went up into Chief Lanford's office, and the three of us stood talking 
there, answering all sorts of questions that not only chief Lanford, but 



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the other detectives would shoot at us, and finally Mr. Darley said he 
would like to talk to Newt Lee; then he went into another room, and I 
presume they brought Newt Lee up from the cell, so he could talk to him. 
After Newt Lee was gone, the detectives showed us the two notes and the 
pad back with still a few unused leaves to it, and the pencil that they 
claimed they had found down in the basement near the body. Of course, 
Mr. Schiff and myself looked at those notes and tried to decipher them, 
but they were written exceedingly dim, and were very rambling and in- 
coherent, and neither of us could recognize the handwriting, nor get any 
sense out of them at all. One of these notes (State's Exhibit Y) was 
written on a sheet of pencil pad paper, the same kind as that of this sheet 
which still remained on the pad back; the other (State's Exhibit Z) was 
written on a sheet of yellow paper, apparently a yellow sheet from the 
regulation order pad or order book of the National Pencil Company; this 
sheet was a yellow sheet with black ruling on it, and certain black print- 
ing at the top. These are the two notes (State's Exhibit Y and Z) (indi- 
cating papers). At the top of these notes where it showed the series and 
date, and you can see it has either been worn out or rubbed out (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit Z), but the date was originally on there, and down below 
here is the serial number; now, both of those notes were written as 
though they had been written through a piece of carbon paper and the 
date said Jan. 8, 1911; the order number is so faint or erased here that I 
can It even see what that is, but there is no trace of a date on this one at 

[207] 

all, but it was there distinctly visible when Mr. Schiff and myself looked 
at it. We continued answering any questions that the detectives wished 
to put to us looking to a possible solution of the mystery, when Mr. Dar- 
ley came in and said if they didn't want him any further, he would go off, 
that he had an appointment. A few minutes thereafter, Mr. Schiff and 
myself left police headquarters, and went down Decatur Street to Peach- 
tree Street, and down Peachtree Street over the viaduct to Jacobs' Ala- 
bama and Whitehall Street store, and went in, and each of us had a drink, 
and I bought a cigar for each of us at the cigar counter. Mr. Schiff had 
an appointment to meet some friends of his at the Union Depot that af- 
ternoon, and it was a little too early, so we took a walk around by the 
pencil factory, walking up Alabama to Forsyth Street and down Forsyth 
Street on the side opposite from the factory, to the corner of Hunter and 
Forsyth, where we noticed the morbid crowd that had collected out in 
front of the factory; we stood there about a minute or two and then con- 
tinued walking, and then went up East Hunter Street back to Whitehall 
Street, and back Whitehall to the corner of Whitehall and Alabama, 
where Mr. Schiff waited until I caught an Alabama Street or Georgia 
Avenue car and returned to my home. I returned to my home about a 
quarter to four, and found there was no one in, as my wife had told me 
that if she wasn't at home, she would probably be at the residence of Mr. 
Ursenbach, I proceeded over there, coming up Washington Street in the 
direction of the Orphans' Home, and on Washington Street, between 
Georgia Avenue and the next street down, which I believe is Bass Street, 



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I met Arthur Haas and Ed Montag and Marcus Loeb, who stopped me 
and asked about things they had heard about the little girl being dead in 
the pencil factory, and I stopped and discussed it with them, and I was 
about to leave them when Henry Bauer came along in his automobile and 
stopped where I was and he asked me what I knew about it, and I had to 
stop and talk with him; and I finally got loose from him and went over to 
the home of Mr. Ursenbach on the corner of Pulliam and Washington 
Terrace, and when I arrived there, I found Mr. and Mrs. A. D. Marcus, 
Mr. and Mrs. Charlie Ursenbach, and my wife, and a little later Mr. and 
Mrs. Sig Selig came in. Here again the subject of conversation was 
what I had seen that morning and what the detectives had told me, and 
what I had told them and how the little girl looked, and all about it, as 
far as I knew. I stayed there until about 5 o'clock, when Mr. Ike Haas, 
the Vice-President of the pencil factory, telephoned me to come over to 
his house, and I thereupon went over there, and on arriving at Mr. Haas' 
home, which is situated on Washington Street right across the way from 
the Orphans' Home, I talked to him about what I had seen that morning, 
and what I could deduce from the facts that were known and what the 
detectives had told me. I stayed there until about 6 o'clock. On arrival 
at Mr. Haas' I saw there his wife, Mrs. Haas, his son, Edgar Haas, and 
a cousin of my wife's, Montefiore Selig. My wife had left word with 
Mrs. Haas that I should call for her at the residence of Mr. Marcus, 
which is next door, or just a few doors away, and I went by and called 

[208] 
209 

for my wife at six o'clock and a few minutes before seven my wife and I 
left the residence of Mr. Marcus and started down Washington Street 
towards Georgia Avenue on our way home. On our way home, we met 
our brother-in-law, Mr. and Mrs. Ursenbach, going to the house from 
which we had just left. We reached home about seven or a little after 
for supper. After supper, I started to read the paper; between 8 and 
8:30, 1 phoned up to my brother-in-law, Alex Marcus, and asked him if 
he would come down, but he said he thought he would not that evening, 
on account of the rain. I continued reading there in the hall that night 
or evening. There was company at the house of my father and mother- 
in-law, among the company being the following people, to the best of my 
recollection, Mr. and Mrs. Paul Lippman, Mr. and Mrs. Ike Strauss and 
Mr. and Mrs. Carl Wolfsheimer. About ten o'clock, all the company 
left, and I went upstairs with my wife and retired about ten o'clock. 
The next morning, I arose about seven o'clock, and washed and 
shaved and dressed, and while I was so occupied, the door bell rang, and 
my wife again answered the door, and there were two detectives down 
there, one was John Black, and the other, I believe, Mr. Haslett, Haslett 
of the city detectives; I finished dressing and went downstairs, and they 
told me they wanted me to step down to headquarters with them, and I 
told them I would, but I stopped and got my breakfast, finished dressing 
and got my breakfast before I went with them. We walked from my 
home on Georgia Avenue down to Washington Street down to police 



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headquarters, walking the whole way. On the way down, I asked detec- 
tive Haslett what the trouble down at the station house was, and he said: 
"Well, Newt Lee has been saying something, and Chief Lanford wanted 
to ask you a few questions about it;" and I said: "What did Newt Lee 
say;" "Well, Chief Lanford will tell you when you get down there." 
Well, I didn't say anything more to him, went right along with him, and 
when I got down to police headquarters, I sat in one of the outer offices 
that the detectives use, it wasn't the office of Chief Lanford, he hadn't 
come down yet, that was about between 8 and 8:30 when I got down there. 
Well, I waited around the office possibly an hour, chatting and talking to 
the officers that came in and spoke to me, but I still didn't see anything 
of Chief Lanford; and bye and bye, probably after an hour, half past 
nine perhaps, Sig Montag and Herbert Haas, a couple of my friends, 
came up and spoke to me; I was conversing with them, and possibly at 
10 o'clock I saw Mr. Luther Rosser come up, and he said: "Hello boys, 
what's the trouble?" And Mr. Haas went up to him and spoke to him, 
and they were talking together and a few minutes later Chief Lanford, 
who had in the mean time arrived and who seemed to be very busy run- 
ning in and out answering telephone calls, came in and says: "Come 
here," and beckoned to me; and I went with him and went into his room, 
in his office, and while I was in there, to the best of my recollection, any- 
how it is my impression now, that this very time slip (Defendant's Ex. 
1), on which at that time that "taken out at 8:26," with the two lines un- 
der it, had not been erased, was shown to me, and in looking over it and 

[209] 

studying it carefully, I found where the interval of an hour had occurred 
three times during the time that Newt Lee had been punching on that 
Saturday night, April 26th. When I had first looked at it, I only noticed 
that every line had a punch mark on it, but I didn't notice what time the 
punch marks themselves were on; this time I studied the slip carefully, 
it was the same slip I had taken out of the clock, Chief Lanford or one of 
the officers handed it to me at police headquarters, which I absolutely 
identified with the writing which was on it, which you can readily see if 
you look now, even though it has been erased. There seemed to be some 
altercation about Mr. Rosser coming in that room, and I heard Mr. Ros- 
ser say: "I am going into that room, that man is my client;" that was 
the first intimation I had that Mr. Rosser was going to look after my in- 
terests in this matter. Chief Beavers stated that he wanted me to give 
him a statement, and he said: "Mr. Frank, will you give us a state- 
ment'?" And I said: "Certainly, I will give them a statement," I con- 
sidered it only right that anybody that was at that factory that day 
should give the police a statement, telling who he had seen, where he had 
gone and what he had done; and I gave them a statement freely and un- 
reservedly, while I had no idea that I had to make a statement at that 
time, I did give it to the very best of my ability, freely, and answered 
every question that was put to me. Mr. February was sitting on the op- 
posite side of the table from where I was sitting, Chief Lanford 
was sitting at a desk, and Mr. Rosser was sitting quite a distance 



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away, probably twenty-five feet, sitting in the front window with his 
back to us. After I had given the statement, several of the officers 
came into the room, among them being Chief Beavers, and Chief Beav- 
ers and Chief Lanford and Mr. Rosser were apparently having a sort of 
conversation, and I overheard Mr. Rosser say: "Why, it is -preposter- 
ous, a man who would have done such a deed must be full of scratches 
and marks and his clothing must be bloody." I imagine Mr. Rosser must 
have had an inkling that they were suspicious of me, and as soon as I 
heard that, I turned and jumped up and showed them my underclothing 
and my top shirt and my body, I bared it to them all that came within the 
range of their vision, I had everything open to them, and all they had to 
do was to look and see it. After that, Mr. Rosser insisted that two of the 
detectives, Mr. Black and another detective, accompany Mr. Haas, Mr. 
Herbert Haas, and myself to my home and look over my soiled clothing 
for the past week, which I anticipated had not been given to the wash- 
woman. They complied with this request; Mr. Black and another detec- 
tive and Mr. Haas and myself went over to the corner of Hunter and 
Washington Streets, and caught the Washington Street car and rode to 
Georgia Avenue and went to my home, and on this car my mother-in-law 
was sitting, returning to her home from town. On reaching 68 E. Geor- 
gia Avenue, I found there my wife's grandmother, Mrs. Cohen, and my 
father-in-law, Mr. Selig. The detectives immediately went upstairs to 
my room with Mr. Haas and myself, and I took the laundry bag in which 
my soiled laundry is always kept and emptied it out on the bed, and they 

[210] 

examined each and every article of clothing that I had discarded that 
past week, and I again opened the clothing which I was then wearing, 
and which was the brown suit which I have here, this brown suit (Defend- 
ant's Exhibit 49) is the same suit I wore that Saturday, April 26th, and 
Monday April 28th, and I have worn that suit continuously since then 
until the weather became so hot, and it has neither been pressed nor 
cleaned since then, and I show it to you for your examination. The de- 
tectives were evidently perfectly well satisfied with what they had seen 
there, and of course they left without any further remarks with Mr. 
Haas. I went downstairs and conversed with my folks down there until 
dinner time, which was served to my father-in-law and my mother-in- 
law and my wife and myself b-y Minola McKnight. About that time, Mr. 
and Mrs. Wolfsheimer came in and conversed with us, Mr. Wolfsheimer 
telling me that he would take me down town that afternoon in his auto- 
mobile. After dinner, I telephoned down to the office and telephoned to 
Mr. Schiff, and told him to get Mr. Montag's permission for the Pencil 
Company to put on a detective, preferably a Pinkerton detective, to 
work with and assist the city detectives in ferreting out the crime, as an 
evidence of the interest in this matter which the National Pencil Com- 
pany was taking, I thought it was no more than we ought to do, and I 
also told Mr. Schiff I would be down town between half past two and 
three. After conversing with my folks, I went around the corner to Mr. 
Wolfsheimer's house and got in his automobile, and he took me down 



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town to his place of business, which is situated on Whitehall Street near 
Mitchell, and I got out of the automobile there and walked over to the 
Forsyth Street plant of the pencil factory, and on going into the office, I 
saw the following men there: Mr. Herbert Schiff, Mr. Wade Campbell, 
Mr. Darley-Mr. Holloway wa§ out in his place in the hall, and Mr. Stel- 
ker and Mr. Quinn and Mr. Ziganke, these foremen were sitting around 
there because we had shut down there, as they told me, due to the fact 
that the plant was wholly demoralized, the girls were running into hys- 
terics, they couldn't stick at their work, they were crying and going on 
over what had happened there. I spoke to the boys who were there in 
the office about the happenings of that morning, of course, at more or 
less length. Then Mr. Quinn said he would like to take me back to the 
metal department on the office floor where the newspapers had said that 
Mr. Barret of the metal department had claimed he had found blood 
spots, and where he had found some hair. Mr. Quinn took me to the lit- 
tle lathe back in the metal department, and explained to me that Mr. Bar- 
rett had told him just the same as he said here, that those strands of hair 
were so few in number that he didn't see them until he turned the handle 
and they wound around his fingers, and moreover that the position of the 
handle of the tool which that handle actuates on that tool, that small 
lathe, was in the same relative position to the work in the lathe as when 
they left it on Friday evening previous to that Monday. They then took 
me over to the place in front of the dressing room where it was claimed 
the blood spots were found. Now, I examined those spots, I didn't ex- 

[211] 

amine them standing up, I didn't depend on the light from the windows, 
but I stooped right down to those spots, and I took a strong electric flash 
lamp that we had around there and looked at them and examined them 
carefully, and I made a certain conclusion after that examination. Now, 
gentlemen, if there is anyone thing in and about a factory, after my 
seven years of practical experience in factories, that I do know, it is the 
care and condition of factory floors. Now, take that metal plant, for in- 
stance, that plant, as you know, is a place where we reform and shape 
and spin sheet brass, and of course, of necessity, we use a great deal of 
lubricant there; now, the lubricant that is used on this eyelet machine, 
these large machines that change the sheet metal from a ribbon into a 
shape, we use that form of lubricant which is known as haskoline com- 
pound; now, the main ingredients of that compound are, for practical 
purposes, soap and oil, and in use, it is diluted to a great extent with 
water so it can flow easily onto the tools or onto the metal, so that the 
tools that they use it on won't get brittle or smeared up, and that has- 
koline compound is carried to these little machines in the metal room, 
right almost up to that dressing room, and that haskoline remains on 
them and sticks to them, and you are apt to find that haskoline com- 
pound on the floor there anywhere around in that metal room near any 
of those machines, and when it is spilled on the floor, it is not scoured 
up, but it is just swept up with a broom. Moreover, a point that has not 
been brought out, so far as I know, right opposite that dressing room is 



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kept the scrap brass, the scrap barrels in which the scrap metal from the 
eyelet machines is put, and that is full of haskoline compound, that metal 
being put into the barrel of course, with the fluid on it, it flows to the bot- 
tom and is apt to get out of the bottom of that barrel onto the floor. But, 
getting back to the floor of the metal room, there is a constant spilling of 
lubricants, and, as I say, it is composed largely of soap and oil, and that 
floor, by actual experiment, is covered to a thickness varying from a 
quarter to a half inch, that is, you can scrape away that much before 
you get down to the original color of the wood; moreover, on top of that 
grease soaked floor, there is dirt more or less, and then somebody comes 
along with a water sprinkler and sprinkles it to sweep it up, and they go 
over the top of that, it don't sink into the floor, and the result is there is 
coat after coat of grease and dirt on that floor. Now, with reference to 
those spots that are claimed to be blood that Mr. Barrett found, I don't 
claim they are not blood, they may have been, they are right close to the 
ladies' dressing room, and we have had accidents there, and by the way, 
in reference to those accidents, the accidents of which we have had rec- 
ords, are not the only accidents that have happened there; for instance, 
a person cuts a finger; that is an accident, we give first aid to the injured 
in the office, and we don't have any report on that, the only reports we 
have are of those accidents that incapacitates the health, where they de- 
mand the money for the time that they have lost due to the accident, and 
we will have our Employers' Liability Insurance Company to pay the 
employees, but where people just cut their fingers and they go back to 

[212] 

work, we don't make any record of that, and we have people cutting their 
fingers there very often, and when they cut their fingers, their line of 
travel is right by that place where Mr. Barrett found those spots, right 
to the office. Now, we use paint and varnish around there, a great deal 
of it, and while I don't say that this is not blood, it may be, but it could 
also have been paint, I have seen the girls drop bottles of paint or var- 
nish and have them break there on the floor, I have seen that happen 
right close to that spot, but the main point about it is this, gentlemen: 
when I got down and looked at it, you could have scratched away from 
the top of those dark stains an accumulation of dirt that was not the ac- 
cumulation of a day or two days or three days or three weeks, but it was 
at least three months, from off the top of those spots, without touching 
the spot itself. Moreover, that white stuff was unquestionably, in my 
opinion, haskoline compound, and it was dry and it had to be put on, be- 
cause it showed all evidences of having been swept, so it had to be put on 
the wood in a liquid state; if that had been fresh red paint, or if that had 
been fresh red blood, and that haskoline compound, that soap in it, which 
is a great solvent, should have been put on there in a liquid state, it 
would not have showed up white, as it showed up then, but it would have 
showed up either pink or red, and where the spot of blood was, or what- 
ever it was, that stuff was white, and not pink or red. 
I returned after making this examination from which I noticed two 
or three or four chips had been knocked up, the boys told me, by the 



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police that morning; I returned to my office and gathered up what 
papers I had to take over to Montag Brothers, and I took over the finan- 
cial report which I had made out the Saturday afternoon previous, and 
I talked it over with Mr. Sig Montag. I had a good long conversation 
with Mr. Montag with reference to the occurrences that morning and we 
decided that since the papers had stated that I was being detained at 
headquarters, it would be best to let my uncle, who was ill, and who is an 
elderly man, being over 70 years of age, and who was on the point of 
taking a trip to Europe, and I didn't want him to be unnecessarily 
alarmed by seeing in the papers that I was detained, and I wrote a tele- 
gram to Mr. Adolph Montag informing him that I was no longer in cus- 
tody, that I was all right, and that he could communicate that to may un- 
cle. That was so that my uncle should not get hold of an Atlanta paper 
and see that I was in custody and be unnecessarily alarmed. 
I returned from Montag Brothers to the pencil factory, being ac- 
companied by one of the traveling men, Mr. Hein, Mr. Sol Hein, and on 
my arrival at the factory I went up into the office and distributed the 
various papers all over the factory to be acted on the next day. In a few 
minutes Mr. Harry Scott of the Pinkerton detectives came in and I took 
him aside into my office, my private office, and spoke to him in the pres- 
ence of Mr. N. V. Darley and Mr. Herbert Schiff. I told him that I ex- 
pected that he had seen what had happened at the pencil factory by 

[213] 

reading the newspapers and knew all the details. He said he didn't read 
the newspapers and didn't know the details, so I sat down and gave him 
all the details that I could, and in addition I told him something which 
Mr. Darley had that afternoon communicated to me, viz.: that Mrs. 
White had told him that on going into the factory at about 12 o'clock 
noon on Saturday, April 26th, she had seen some negro down by the ele- 
vator shaft. Mr. Darley had told me this and I just told this to Mr. Scott. 
After I told Mr. Scott all that I could, I took him around the building, 
took him first back to the metal room and showed him the place where 
the hair had been found, looked at the machinery and at the lathe, looked 
at the table on which the lathe stands, and the lathe bed and the floor un- 
derneath the lathe, and there wasn't a spot, much less a blood spot un- 
derneath. I showed him the other spot in front of the dressing room, 
and I took him to the fourth floor and showed him where I had seen 
White and Denham a little before one the first time and about three the 
second time. Then I took him down into the basement and made a thor- 
ough search of the basement, and that included an examination of the 
elevator well which was at bottom of elevator shaft, and I noticed Mr. 
Scott was foraging around down there and he picked up two or three or 
may be four articles and put them in his pocket, and one of them I spe- 
cially noticed was a piece of cord exactly like that which had been found 
around the little girl's neck. We then went back and I showed him where 
the officer said the slipper had been found, the hat had been found and 
the little girl's body was located. I showed him, in fact, everything that 
the officers had showed us. Then I opened the back door and we made a 



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thorough search of the alleyway and went up and down the alleyway and 
then went down that alleyway to Hunter Street and down Hunter to 
Forsyth and up Forsyth in front of the pencil factory. In front of the 
pencil factory I had quite a little talk with Mr. Scott as to the rate of the 
Pinkerton Detective Agency. He told me what they were and I had Mr. 
Schiff to telephone to Mr. Montag to find out if those rates were satis- 
factory. He phoned back the answer that he would engage them for a 
few days at any rate. Mr. Scott then said: "Well, I don't need any- 
thing more," and he says "The Pinkertons in this case, according to 
their usual custom in ferreting out the perpetrator of this crime will 
work hand in hand with the city officers." I said: "All right, that suits 
me." And he went on his way. About that time my father-in-law 
joined the group over in front of the factory and after talking for some 
time my father-in-law and I left and we arrived home about 6:30 I 
should judge, and found there my mother-in-law and my wife and Min- 
ola McKnight, and we had supper. After supper my two brothers-in- 
law and their wives came over to visit with us and they stayed until 
about 10 o'clock, after which my wife and I retired. On Tuesday morn- 
ing I arose sometime between seven and seven-thirty, leisurely dressed 
and took my breakfast and caught the 8:10 car coming towards town, 
the Georgia Avenue car, and when I went to get on that car I met a 
young man by the name of Dickler and I remember paying the fare for 

[214] 

both of us. When I arrived at the pencil factory about 8:30, 1 imme- 
diately entered upon my routine work sending the various orders to the 
various places in the factory where they were due to go, and about 9:30 
I went on my usual trip over to Montag Brothers to see the General Man- 
ager. After staying over there a short while I returned in company with 
another one of their traveling men, Mr. Jordan. At the corner of For- 
syth and Hunter Street I met up with a cousin of my wife's, a Mr. Selig, 
and we had a drink at Cruickshank's soda fount at the corner of Hunter 
and Forsyth. Then I went up into the factory and separated the papers 
I had brought back with me from Montag Brothers, putting them in the 
proper places, and sending the proper papers to the different places. I 
was working along in the regular routine of my work, in the factory and 
about the office, and a little later detectives Scott and Black came up to 
the factory and said: "Mr. Frank, we want you to go down to headquar- 
ters with us," and I went with them. We went down to headquar- 
ters and I have been incarcerated ever since. We went down to head- 
quarters in an automobile and they took me up to Chief Lanford's office. 
I sat up there and answered any questions that he desired, and I had 
been sitting there some time when detective Scott and detective Black 
came back with a bundle under their arm. They showed me a little piece 
of material of some shirt, and asked me if I had a shirt of that material. 
I looked at it and told them I didn't think I ever had a shirt of that de- 
scription. In the meantime they brought in Newt Lee, the night watch- 
man brought him up from a cell and showed him the same sample. He 
looked at it and immediately recognized it; he said he had a shirt like that, 



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but didn't remember having worn it for 2 years, if I remember correctly, 
that is what he said. Detectives Scott and Black then opened the pack- 
age they had and disclosed the full shirt (State's Exhibit F) of that ma- 
terial that had all the appearance of being freshly stained with blood, 
and had a very distinct odor. Newt Lee was taken back to the cell. 
After a time Chief Langford came over to me and began an examination 
of my face and of my head and my hands and my arms. I suppose he was 
trying to hunt to see if he could find any scratches. I stayed in there un- 
til about 12 o'clock when Mr. Rosser came in and spoke to the detectives, 
or to Chief Beavers. After talking with Chief Beavers he came over to 
me and said that Chief Beavers thought it better that I should stay 
down there. He says: "He thinks it better that you be detained at head- 
quarters, but if you desire, you don't need to be locked up in a cell, you 
can engage a supernumerary policeman who will guard you and give you 
the freedom of the building." I immediately acquiesced, supposing that 
I couldn't do anything else, and Mr. Rosser left. Now, after this time, 
it was almost about this time they took me from upstairs down to the 
District Sergeant's desk and detective Starnes-John N. Starnes, I 
think his name is, came in and dictated from the original notes that were 
found near the body, dictated to me to get a sample of my handwriting. 
Have you got those photographs there? (Photographs handed to the 
defendant). I wrote this note (State's Exhibit K) at the dictation of 

[215] 

Mr. Starnes, which was given to me word by word, and of course I wrote 
it slowly. When a word was spelled differently they usually stopped- 
take this word "buy" for instance, the detective told me how that was 
spelled so they could see my exact letters, and compare with the original 
note. Now I had no hesitation in giving him a specimen of my handwrit- 
ing. Now, this photograph (State's Exhibit K), is a reproduction of the 
note. You see, J. N. Starnes in the corner here, that is detective Starnes, 
and then is dated here, I put that there myself so I would be able to rec- 
ognize it again, in case they tried any erasures or anything like that. It 
is a photographic reproduction of something that was written in pen- 
cil, as near as one can judge, a photographic reproduction of the note 
that I wrote. Detective Starnes then took me down to the desk sergeant 
where they searched me and entered my name on the book under a charge 
of suspicion. Then they took me back into a small room and I sat there 
for awhile while my father-in-law was arranging for a supernumerary 
police to guard me for the night. They took me then to a room on the 
top of the building and I sat in the room there and either read maga- 
zines or newspapers and talked to my friends who came to see me until 
-I was about to retire at midnight. I had the cover of my cot turned 
back and I was going to bed when detective Scott and detective Black, at 
midnight, Tuesday, April 29th, come in and said: " I Mr. Frank, we would 
like to talk to you a little bit. Come in and talk to us." I says: "Sure, 
I will be only too glad to." I went with them to a little room on the top 
floor of the headquarters. In that room was detective Scott and detec- 
time Black and myself. They stressed the possibility of couples having 



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been let into the factory at night by the night watchman, Newt Lee. I 
told them that I didn't know anything about it, that if I had, I certainly 
would have put a stop to it long ago. They said: "Mr. Frank, you have 
never talked alone with Newt Lee. You are his boss and he respects you. 
See what you can do with him. We can't get anything more out of him, 
see if you can." I says: " All right, I understand what you mean; I will 
do my best," because I was only too willing to help. Black says: "Now 
put it strong to him, put it strong to him, and tell him to cough up and 
tell all he knows. Tell him that you are here and that he is here and that 
he better open up and tell all he knows about happenings at the pencil 
factory that Saturday night, or you will both go to hell." Those were 
the detective's exact words. I told Mr. Black I caught his meaning, and 
in a few minutes afterwards detective Starnes brought up Newt Lee 
from the cell room. They put Newt Lee into a room and hand-cuffed 
him to a chair. I spoke to him at some length in there, but I couldn't get 
anything additional out of him. He said he knew nothing about couples 
coming in there at night, and remembering the instructions Mr. Black 
had given me I said: "Now, Newt, you are here and I am here, and you 
had better open up and tell all you know, and tell the truth and tell the 
full truth, because you will get us both into lots of trouble if you don't 
tell all you know," and he answered me like an old negro: "Before God, 
Mr. Frank, I am telling you the truth and I have told you all I know." 

[216] 

And the conversation ended right there. Within a minute or two after- 
wards the detectives came back into the room, that is, detective Scott 
and detective Black, and then began questioning Newt Lee, and then it 
was that I had my first initiation into the third degree of the Atlanta 
police department. The way that fellow Black cursed at that poor old 
negro, Newt Lee, was something awful. He shrieked at him, he hol- 
lered at him, he cursed him, and did everything but beat him. Then 
they took Newt Lee down to a cell and I went to my cot in the outer room. 
Now before closing my statement, I wish to touch upon a couple of 
insinuations and accusations other than the one on the bill of indictment, 
that have been leveled against me so far during the trial. The first is 
this, the fact that I would not talk to the detectives; that I would not see 
Jim Conley. Well, let's look into the facts a few minutes and see whether 
there was any reason for that, or if there be any truth in that statement. 
On Sunday morning, I was taken down to the undertaker's estab- 
lishment, to the factory, and I went to headquarters; I went to head- 
quarters the second time, going there willingly without anybody coming 
for me. On each occasion I answered them frankly and unreservedly, 
giving them the benefit of the best of my knowledge, answering all and 
any of their questions, and discussing the matter generally with them. 
On Monday they came for me again. I went down and answered any and 
all of their questions and gave them a statement which they took down 
in writing, because I thought it was right and I was only too glad to do 
it. I answered them and told them all that I know, answering all ques- 
tions. Tuesday I was down at police station again, and answered every 



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question and discussed the matter freely and openly with them, not only 
with the police, but with the reporters who were around there; talked to 
anybody who wanted to talk with me about it, and I have even talked 
with them at midnight when I was just about to go to bed. Midnight 
was the time they chose to talk to me, but even at such an outlandish hour 
I was still willing to help them, and at their instigation I spoke to Newt 
Lee alone, but what was the result ? They commenced and they grilled 
that poor negro and put words into his mouth that I never said, and 
twisted not alone the English, but distorted my meaning. I just decided 
then and there that if that was the line of conduct they were going to pur- 
sue I would wash my hands of them. I didn't want to have anything to 
do with them. On the afternoon of May 1st, I was taken to the Fulton 
County Tower. On May 3rd detectives Black and Scott came up to my 
cell in the tower and wanted to speak to me alone without any of my 
friends around. I said all right, I wanted to hear what they had to say 
that time. Then Black tore off something like this: "Mr. Frank, we are 
suspicious of that man Darley. We are watching him; we have been 
shadowing him. Now open up and tell us what you know about him." I 
said: "Gentlemen, you have come to the wrong man, because Mr. Dar- 
ley is the soul of honor and is as true as steel. He would not do a crime 

[217] 

like that, he couldn't do it." And Black chirped up: "Come on, Scott, 
nothing doing," and off they go. That showed me how much reliance 
could be placed in either the city detectives or our own Pinkerton detec- 
tives, and I treated such conduct with silence and it was for this reason, 
gentlemen, that I didn't see Conley, surrounded with a bevy of city detec- 
tives and Mr. Scott, because I knew that there would not be an action so 
trifling, that there was not an action so natural but that they would dis- 
tort and twist it to be used against me, and that there was not a word 
that I could utter that they would not deform and twist and distort to be 
used against me, but I told them through my friend Mr. Klein, that if 
they got the permission of Mr. Rosser to come, I would speak to them, 
would speak to Conley and face him or anything they wanted-if they 
got that permission or brought Mr. Rosser. Mr. Rosser was on that day 
up at Tallulah Falls trying a case. Now, that is the reason, gentlemen, 
that I have kept my silence, not because I didn It want to, but because I 
didn't want to have things twisted. 

Then that other implication, the one of knowing that Conley could 
write, and I didn't tell the authorities. 

Let's look into that. On May 1st I was taken to the tower. On the 
same date, as I understand it, the negro Conley was arrested. I didn't 
know anybody had any suspicions about him. His name was not in the 
papers. He was an unknown quantity. The police were not looking out 
for him; they were looking out for me. They didn't want him, and I had 
no inkling that he ever said he couldn't write. I was sitting in that cell 
in the Fulton County jail-it was along about April 12th, April 12th or 
14th-that Mr. Leo Gottheimer, a salesman for the National Pencil Com- 
pany, came running over, and says "Leo, the Pinkerton detectives have 



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suspicions of Conley. He keeps saying he can't write; these fellows over 
at the factory know well enough that he can write, can't he?" I said: 
"Sure he can write. " "We can prove it. The nigger says he can't write 
and we feel that he can write.'" I said: "I know he can write. I have re- 
ceived many notes from him asking me to loan him money. I have re- 
ceived too many notes from him not to know that he cannot write. In 
other words, I have received notes signed with his name, purporting to 
have been written by him, though I have never seen him to this date use 
a pencil." I thought awhile and then I says:" Now, I tell you; if you will 
look into a drawer in the safe you will find the card of a jeweler from 
whom Conley bought a watch on the installment. Now, perhaps if you 
go to that jeweler you may find some sort of a receipt that Conley had to 
give and be able to prove that Conley can write." Well, Gottheimer took 
that information back to the Pinkertons; they did just as I said; they got 
the contract with Conley's name on it, got back evidently to Scott and 
then he told the negro to write. Gentlemen, the man who found out or 
paved the way to find out that Jim Conley could write is sitting right 
here in this chair. That is the truth about it. 

[218] 

Then that other insinuation, an insinuation that is dastardly that it 
is beyond the appreciation of a human being, that is, that my wife didn't 
visit me; now the truth of the matter is this, that on April 29th, the date 
I was taken in custody at police headquarters, my wife was there to see 
me, she was downstairs on the first floor; I was up on the top floor. She 
was there almost in hysterics, having been brought there by her two 
brothers-in-law, and her father. Rabbi Marx was with me at the time. I 
consulted with him as to the advisability of allowing my dear wife to 
come up to the top floor to see me in those surroundings with city detec- 
tives, reporters and snapshotters; I thought I would save her that humil- 
iation and that harsh sight, because I expected any day to be turned loose 
and be returned once more to her side at home. Gentlemen, we did all 
we could do to restrain her in the first days when I was down at the jail 
from coming on alone down to the jail, but she was perfectly willing to 
even be locked up with me and share my incarceration. 
Gentlemen, I know nothing whatever of the death of little Mary 
Phagan. I had no part in causing her death nor do I know how she came 
to her death after she took her money and left my office. I never even 
saw Conley in the factory or anywhere else on that date, April 26, 1913. 
The statement of the witness Dalton is utterly false as far as com- 
ing to my office and being introduced to me by the woman Daisy Hopkins 
is concerned. If Dalton was ever in the factory building with any woman, 
I didn't know it. I never saw Dalton in my life to know him until this 
crime. 

In reply to the statement of Miss Irene Jackson, she is wholly mis- 
taken in supposing that I ever went to a ladies' dressing room for the 
purpose of making improper gaze into the girls' room. I have no recol- 
lection of occasions of which she speaks but I do not know that that 
ladies' dressing room on the fourth floor is a mere room in which the girls 



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change their outer clothing. There was no bath or toilet in that room, 
and it had windows opening onto the street. There was no lock on the 
door, and I know I never went into that room at any hour when the girls 
were dressing. These girls were supposed to be at their work at 7 o'clock. 
Occasionally I have had reports that the girls were flirting from this 
dressing room through the windows with men. It is also true that some- 
times the girls would loiter in this room when they ought to have been 
doing their work. It is possible that on some occasions I looked into this 
room to see if the girls were doing their duty and were not using this 
room as a place for loitering and for flirting. These girls were not sup- 
posed to be dressing in that room after 7 o'clock and I know that I never 
looked into that room at any hour when I had any reason to suppose that 
there were girls dressing therein. 
The statement of the negro Conley is a tissue of lies from first to 

[219] 

last. I know nothing whatever of the cause of the death of Mary Pha- 
gan and Conley's statement as to his coming up and helping me dispose 
of the body, or that I had anything to do with her or to do with him that 
day is a monstrous lie. 

The story as to women coming into the factory with me for immoral 
purposes is a base lie and the few occasions that he claims to have seen 
me in indecent positions with women is a lie so vile that I have no 
language with which to fitly denounce it. 

I have no rich relatives in Brooklyn, N. Y. My father is an invalid. 
My father and mother together are people of very limited means, who 
have barely enough upon which to live. My father is not able to work. 
I have no relative who has any means at all, except Mr. M. Frank who 
lives in Atlanta, Ga. Nobody has raised a fund to pay the fees of my 
attorneys. These fees have been paid by the sacrifice in part of the small 
property which my parents possess. 

Gentlemen, some newspaper men have called me "the silent man in 
the tower," and I kept my silence and my counsel advisedly, until the 
proper time and place. The time is now; the place is here; and I have 
told you the truth, the whole truth. 
MISS EMILY MAYFIELD, sworn for the Defendant. 
I worked at the pencil factory last year during the summer of 1912. 
I have never been in the dressing room when Mr. Frank would come in 
and look at anybody that was undressing. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I work at Jacobs' Pharmacy. My sister used to work at the pencil 
factory. I don't remember any occasion when Mr. Frank came in the 
dressing room door while Miss Irene Jackson and her sister were there. 
MISSES ANNIE OSBORNE, REBECCA CARSON, MAUDE 
WRIGHT, and MRS. ELLA THOMAS, all sworn for the Defendant, 
testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Company; that 
Mr. Frank's general character was good; that Conley's general charac- 
ter for truth and veracity was bad and that they would not believe him 
on oath. 



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MISSES MOLLIE BLAIR, ETHEL STEWART, CORA COWAN, 
B. D. SMITH, LIZZIE WORD, BESSIE WHITE, GRACE ATHER- 
TON, and MRS. BARNES, all sworn for the Defendant, testified that 
they were employees of the National Pencil Company, and work on the 
fourth floor of the factory; that the general character of Leo. M. Frank 
was good; that they have never gone with him at any time or place for 

[220] 

any immoral purpose, and that they have never heard of his doing any- 
thing wrong. 

MISSES CORINTHIA HALL, ANNIE HOWELL, LILLIE M. 
GOODMAN, VELMA HAYES, JENNIE MAYFIELD, IDA HOLMES, 
WILLIE HATCHETT, MARY HATCHETT, MINNIE SMITH, MAR- 
JORIE McCORD, LENA McMURTY, MRS. W. R. JOHNSON, MRS. 
S. A. WILSON, MRS. GEORGIA DENHAM, MRS. 0. JONES, MISS 
ZILLA SPIVEY, CHARLES LEE, N. V. DARLEY, F. ZIGANKI, and 
A. C. HOLLOW AY, MINNIE FOSTER, all sworn for the Defendant, 
testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Company and 
knew Leo M. Frank, and that his general character was good. 
D. I. MacINTYRE, B. WILDAUER, MRS. DAN KLEIN, ALEX 
DITTLER, DR. J. E. SOMMERFIELD, F. G. SCHIFF, AL. GUTH- 
MAN, JOSEPH GERSHON, P. D. McCARLEY, MRS. M. W. MEYER, 
MRS. DAVID MARX, MRS. A. I. HARRIS, M. S. RICE, L. H. MOSS, 
MRS. L H. MOSS, MRS. JOSEPH BROWN, E. E. FITZPATRICK, 
EMIL DITTLER, WM. BAUER, MISS HELEN LOEB, AL. FOX, 
MRS. MARTIN MAY, JULIAN V. BOEHM, MRS. MOLLIE ROSEN- 
BERG, M. H. SILVERMAN, MRS. L. STERNE, CHAS. ADLER, 
MRS. R. A. SONN, MISS RAY KLEIN, A. J. JONES, L. EINSTEIN, 
J. BERNARD, J. FOX, MARCUS LOEB, FRED HEILBRON, MIL- 
TON KLEIN, NATHAN COPLAN, MRS. J. E. SOMMERFIELD, all 
sworn for the Defendant, testified that they were residents of the city of 
Atlanta, and have known Leo M. Frank ever since he has lived in At- 
lanta; that his general character is good. 

MRS. M. W. CARSON, MARY PIRK, MRS. DORA SMALL, MISS 
JULIA FUSS, R. P. BUTLER, JOE STELKER, all sworn for the De- 
fendant, testified that they were employees of the National Pencil Com- 
pany; that they knew Leo M. Frank and that his general character is 
good. 

EVIDENCE IN REBUTTAL FOR STATE. 
J. R. FLOYD, R. M. GODDARD, A. L. GODDARD, N. J. BAL- 
LARD, HENRY CARR, J. S. RICE, LEM SMFfH, all sworn for the 
State, testified that they knew Daisy Hopkins; that her general charac- 
ter for truth and veracity was bad and that they would not believe her 
on oath. J. R. Floyd testified that he heard Daisy Hopkins talk about 
Frank and said there was a cot in the basement. 
J. T. HEARN, sworn for the State. 

I have known C. B. Dalton from 1890 to 1904. At first his general 
character was bad, but the last I knowed of him, it was good. I would 
believe him on oath. 



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[221] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I heard of his being indicted for stealing and selling liquor, but the 
last year he was in Walton County he joined the church and I never 
heard a word against him after that. 
R. V. JOHNSON, sworn for the State. 

I have known C. B. Dalton for about 20 years. His character for 
truth and veracity is good, and I would believe him on oath. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I didn't hear he was indicted for liquor selling before he left my 
county. He was in good standing when he left the church. I knew he 
was in the chaingang for stealing about 18 or 20 years ago. 
W. M. COOK, W. J. ELDER, A. B. HOUSTON, J. T. BORN, W. M. 
WRIGHT, C. B. McGinnis, F. P. HEFNER, W. C. HALE, LEON 
BOYCE, M. G. CALDWELL, A. W. HUNT, W. C. PATRICK, all sworn 
for the State, testified that they knew C. B. Dalton; that his general char- 
acter for truth and veracity was good, and that they would believe him 
on oath. 

MISS MYRTIE CATO, MAGGIE GRIFFIN, MRS. C. D. DONE- 
GAN, MRS. H. R. JOHNSON, MISS MARIE CARST, MISS NELLIE 
PETTIS, MARY DAVIS, MRS. MARY E. WALLACE, ESTELLE 
WINKLE, CARRIE SMITH, all sworn for the Defendant, testified that 
they were formerly employed at the National Pencil Company and 
worked at the factory for a period varying from three days to three and 
a half years; that Leo M. Frank's character for lasciviousness was bad. 
MISS MAMIE KITCHENS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I have worked at the National Pencil Company two years. I am on 
the fourth floor. I have not been called by the defense. Miss Jones and 
Miss Howard have also not been called by the defense to testify. I was 
in the dressing room with Miss Irene Jackson when she was undressed. 
Mr. Frank opened the door, stuck his head inside. He did not knock. He 
just stood there and laughed. Miss Jackson said, "Well, we are dress- 
ing, blame it," and then he shut the door. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Yes, he asked us if we didn't have any work to do. It was during 
business hours. We didn't have any work to do. We were going to 
leave. I have never met Mr. Frank anywhere, or any time for any im- 
moral purposes. 

MISS RUTH ROBINSON, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I have seen Leo M. Frank talking to Mary Phagan. He was talking 

[222] 

to her about her work, not very often. He would just tell her, while 
she was at work, about her work. He would stand just close enough to 
her to tell her about her work. He would show her how to put rubbers in 
the pencils. He would just take up the pencil and show her how to do it. 
That's all I saw him do. I heard him speak to her; he called her Mary. 
That was last summer. 



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MISS DEWEY HEWELL, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I stay in the Home of the Good Shepherd in Cincinnati. I worked at 
the pencil factory four months. I quit in March, 1913. I have seen Mr. 
Frank talk to Mary Phagan two or three times a day in the metal depart- 
ment. I have seen him hold his hand on her shoulder. He called her 
Mary. He would stand pretty close to her. He would lean over in her 
face. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

All the rest of the girls were there when he talked to her. I don't 
know what he was talking to her about. 

MISS REBECCA CARSON, re-called by the State in rebuttal. 
I have never gone into the dressing room on the fourth floor with 
Leo M. Frank. 

MISS MYRTICE CATO, MISS MAGGIE GRIFFIN, both sworn 
for the State, testified that they had seen Miss Rebecca Carson go into 
the ladies' dressing room on the fourth floor with Leo M. Frank two or 
three times during working hours; that there were other ladies working 
on the fourth floor at the time this happened. 
J. E. DUFFY, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I worked at the National Pencil Company. I was hurt there in the 
metal department. I was cut on my forefingers on the left hand. That 
is the cut right around there (indicating). It never cut off any of my fin- 
gers. I went to the office to have it dressed. It was bleeding pretty 
freely. A few drops of blood dropped on the floor at the machine where 
I was hurt. The blood did not drop anywhere else except at that ma- 
chine. None of it dropped near the ladies' dressing room, or the water 
cooler. I had a large piece of cotton wrapped around my finger. When 
I was first cut I just slapped a piece of cotton waste on my hand. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I never saw any blood anywhere except at the machine. I went 
from the office to the Atlanta Hospital to have my finger attended to. 
W. E. TURNER, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I worked at the National Pencil Company during March of this 
year. I saw Leo Frank talking to Mary Phagan on the second floor, 

[223] 

about the middle of March. It was just before dinner. There was no- 
body else in the room then. She was going to work and he stopped to 
talk to her. She told him she had to go to work. He told her that he was 
the superintendent of the factory, and that he wanted to talk to her, and 
she said she had to go to work. She backed off and he went on towards 
her talking to her. The last thing I heard him say was he wanted to talk 
to her. That is all I saw or heard. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

That was just before dinner. The girls were up there getting ready 
for dinner. Mary was going in the direction where she worked, and Mr. 
Frank was going the other way. I don't know whether any of the girls 
were still at work or not. I didn't look for them. Some of the girls came 
in there while this was going on and told me where to put the pencils. 



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Lemmie Quinn's office is right there. I don't know whether the girls saw 
him talking to Mary or not, they were in there. It was just before the 
whistle blew at noon. Mr. Frank told her he wanted to speak to her and 
she said she had to go to work, and the girls came in there while this con- 
versation was going on. I can't describe Mary Phagan. I don't know 
any of the other little girls in there. I don't remember who called her 
Mary Phagan, a young man on the fourth floor told me her name was 
Mary Phagan. I don't know who he was. I didn't know anybody in the 
factory. I can't describe any of the girls. I don't know a single one in 
the factory. 

W. P. MERK, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I have been a motorman for about three years, in the employ of the 
Georgia Railway & Electric 'Company. I know Daisy Hopkins. I have 
met her at the corner of Whitehall and Alabama Street between 2:30 and 
3:30 on a Saturday. She said she was going to pencil factory. I made 
an engagement with her to go to her room to see her that Saturday. I 
was in a room with her at the corner of Walker and Peters Street about 
8:30 o'clock. She told me she had been to the pencil factory that after- 
noon. Her general character for truth and veracity is bad. I would not 
believe her on oath. 

GEORGE GORDON, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a practicing lawyer. I was at police station part of the time 
when Minola McKnight was making her statement. I was outside of the 
door most of the time. I went down there with habeas corpus proceed- 
ings to have her sign the affidavit and when I got there the detectives in- 
formed me that she was in the room, and I sat down and waited outside 
for her two hours, and people went in and out of the door, and after I had 
waited there I saw the stenographer of the recorder's court going into 
the room and I decided I had better make a demand to go into the room, 
which I did, and I was then allowed to go into the room and I found Mr. 

[224] 

February reading over to her some stenographic statement he had taken. 
There were two other men from Beck & Gregg Hardware store and Pat 
Campbell and Mr. Starnes and Albert McKnight. After that was read 
Mr. February went out to write it off on the typewriter and while he was 
out Mr. Starnes said, "Now this must be kept very quiet and nobody be 
told anything about this." I thought it was agreed that we would say 
nothing about it. I was surprised when I saw it in the newspapers two 
or three days afterwards. I said to Starnes: "There is no reason why 
you should hold this woman, you should let her go." He said he would 
do nothing without consulting Mr. Dorsey and he suggested that I had 
better go to Mr. Dorsey's office. I went to his office and he called up Mr. 
Starnes and then I went back to the police station and told Starnes to 
call Mr. Dorsey and I presume that Mr. Dorsey told him to let her go. 
Anyway he said she could go. You (Mr. Dorsey) said you would let her 
go also. That morning you had said you would not unless I took out a 
habeas corpus. In the morning after Chief Beavers told me he would 
not let her go on bond and unless you (Mr. Dorsey) would let her go, I 



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went to your office and told you that she was being held illegally and you 
admitted it to me and I said we would give bond in any sum that you 
might ask. You said you would not let her go because you would get in 
bad with the detectives, and you advised me to take out a habeas corpus, 
which I did. The detectives said they couldn't let her got without your 
consent. You said you didn't have anything to do with locking her up. 
As to whether Minola McKnight did not sign this paper freely and vol- 
untarily (State's Exhibit J), it was signed in my absence while I was at 
police station. When I came back this paper was lying on the table 
signed. That paper is substantially the notes that Mr. February read 
over to her. As they read it over to her, she said it was about that way. 
Yes, you agreed with me that you had no right to lock her up. I don't 
know that you said you didn't do it. I don't remember that we discussed 
that. You told me that you would not direct her to be let loose, because 
you would get in bad with the detectives. I had told you that the detec- 
tives told me they would not release her unless you said so. I took out 
a habeas corpus immediately afterwards and went down there to get her 
released, and she was released. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I heard that they had had her in Mr. Dorsey 's office and she went 
away screaming and was locked up. I knew that Mr. Dorsey was letting 
this be done. She was locked in a cell at the police station when I saw 
her. They admitted that they did not have any warrant for her arrest. 
Beavers said he would not let her out on bond unless Mr. Dorsey said so. 
He said the charge against her was suspicion. They put her in a cell and 
kept her until four o'clock the next day before they let her go. When I 
went down to see her in the cell, she was crying and going on and almost 
hysterical. When I asked Mr. Dorsey to let her go out on bond, he said 

[225] 

he wouldn't do it because he would get in bad with the detectives, but 
that if I would let her stay down there with Starnes and Campbell for a 
day, he would let her loose without any bond, and I said I wouldn't do it. 
I said that I considered it a very reprehensible thing to lock up some- 
body because they knew something, and he said, "Well, it is sometimes 
necessary to get information," and I said, "Certainly our liberty is more 
necessary than any information, and I consider it a trampling on our 
Anglo-Saxon liberties." They did not tell me that they already had a 
statement that she had made, and which she declared to be the truth. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

You (Mr. Dorsey) did not tell me that you had no right to lock any- 
body up. I told you that, and you agreed to it, but you would not let her 
go. I told you that Chief Beavers said he would do what you said and 
then I asked you to give me an order. You said you wouldn't give me an 
order. When I told Starnes that I thought I ought to be in that room 
while Minola was making the statement, he knocked on the door, and it 
was unlocked on the inside and they let me in. They let me into the room 
at once after I had been sitting there two hours. I was present when she 
made the statement about the payment of the cook. I don't remember 



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what questions I asked her at that time. I was her attorney. I didn't go 
down there to examine her; I went there to get her out. Starnes and 
Campbell were in and out of the room during the time. Mr. Starnes 
stayed on the outside of the door part of the time. I don't know who 
was in the room and who was not while I was outside. 
ALBERT McKNIGHT, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
This sideboard (Defendant's Exhibit 63) sets more this way than it 
was at the time I was there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know if the sideboard was changed, but it wasn't setting like 
that is in the corner. I didn't see the sideboard at all, but I don't like 
the angle of this plat. 

R. L. CRAVEN, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am connected with the Beck and Gregg Hardware Co. Albert 
McKnight also works for the same company. He asked me to go down 
and see if I could get Minola McKnight out when she was arrested. I 
went there for that purpose. I was present when she signed that affida- 
vit (State's Exhibit J). I went out with Mr. Pickett to Minola 
McKnight 's home the latter part of May. Albert McKnight was there. 
On the 3rd day of June, we were down at the station house and they 
brought Minola McKnight in and we questioned her first as to the state- 
ments Albert had given me; at first she would not talk, she said she didn't 

[226] 

know anything about it. I told her that Albert made the statement that 
he was there Saturday when Mr. Frank came home, and he said Mr. 
Frank came in the dining room and stayed about ten minutes and went 
to the sideboard and caught a car in about ten minutes after he first ar- 
rived there, and I went on and told her that Albert had said that Minola 
had overheard Mrs. Frank tell Mrs. Selig that Mr. Frank didn't rest 
well and he came home drinking and made Mrs. Frank get out of bed and 
sleep on a rug by the side of the bed and wanted her to give him his pis- 
tol to shoot his head off and that he had murdered somebody, or some- 
thing like that. Minola at first hesitated, but finally she told everything 
that was in that affidavit. When she did that Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, 
Mr. February, Albert McKnight, Mr. Pickett, and Mr. Gordon were 
there. When we were questioning her, I don't remember whether any- 
body but Mr. Pickett and myself and Albert McKnight were there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

We went down there about 1 1 :30 o'clock. I didn't know that she 
had been in jail twelve hours then. I suppose she was in jail because 
they needed her as a witness. I was in Mr. Dorsey's office only one time 
about this matter, the same morning I started out to see if I could get her 
and I went to see Mr. Dorsey about getting her out. Her husband wanted 
her out of jail and I went to see Mr. Dorsey about getting her out. At 
first she denied it. I questioned her for something like two hours. I 
didn't know she had already made a statement about the truth of the 
transaction. Mr. Dorsey didn't read it to me. He said she was hysteri- 
cal and wouldn't talk at all. I went down to get her to make some kind of 



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a statement; I wanted her to tell the truth in the matter. I wanted to 
see whether her husband was telling the truth or whether she was telling 
a falsehood. Yes, she finally made a statement that agreed with her hus- 
band, and I left after awhile. As to why I didn't stay and get her out, 
because I didn't want to. I went after we got her statement. No, I didn't 
get her out of jail. I did not look after her any further than that. I 
don't think Mr. Dorsey told me to question her. He wanted me to go out 
to see her. He said Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell would be up there and 
they would let us know about it, and we went up there and Mr. Starnes 
and Mr. Campbell brought her in. They let us see her all right. I did 
not ask Campbell or Starnes to turn her out. I didn't ask anybody to 
turn her out. I never made any suggestion to anybody about turning 
her out. Nobody cursed, mistreated or threatened this woman while I 
was there. I don't know what took place before I got there. 
E. H. PICKETT, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I work at Beck & Gregg Hdw. Co. I was present when that paper 
was signed (State's Exhibit J) by Minola McKnight. Albert McKnight, 
Starnes, Campbell, Mr. Craven, Mr. Gordon was present when she made 
that statement. We questioned her about the statement Albert had made 

[227] 

and she denied it all at first. She said she had been cautioned not to talk 
about this affair by Mrs. Frank or Mrs. Selig. She stated that Albert 
had lied in what he told us. She finally began to weaken on one or two 
points and admitted that she had been paid a little more money than was 
ordinarily due her. There was a good many things in that statement 
that she did not tell us, though, at first. She didn't tell us all of that 
when she went at it. She seemed hysterical at the beginning. We told 
her that we weren't there to get her into trouble, but came down there to 
get her out, and then she agreed to talk to us but would not talk to the 
detectives. The detectives then retired from the room. Albert told her 
that she knew she told him those things. She denied it, but finally ac- 
knowledged that she said a few of those things, and among the things I 
remember is that she was cautioned not to repeat anything that she 
heard. We asked her a thousand questions perhaps. I don't know how 
many. I called the detectives and told them we had gotten all the admis- 
sions we could. We didn't have any stenographer and Mr. Craven be- 
gan writing it out, and Mr. Craven had written only a small portion when 
the stenographer came. She did not make all of that statement in the 
first talk she had with us. She didn't say anything with reference to 
Mrs. Frank having stated anything to her mother on Sunday morning. 
The affidavit does not contain anything that she did not state there that 
day. Before she made that affidavit, she said he did eat dinner that 
day. She finally said he didn't eat any. At first she said he remained at 
home at dinner time about half an hour or more. She finally said he only 
remained about ten minutes. At first she said Albert McKnight was not 
there that day. She finally said he was there. She said she was in- 
structed not to talk at first. At first she said her wages hadn't been 
changed, finally said her wages had been raised by the Seligs. As to 



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what, if anything, she said about a hat being given her by Mrs. Selig, the 
only statement she made about the hat at all was when she made the affi- 
davit. We didn't know anything about the hat before. Nobody threat- 
ened her when she was there. When the first questioning was going on 
Campbell and Starnes were not in there. They came in when we called 
them and told them we were ready. Her attorney, Mr. Gordon, came in 
with the detectives. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

As to why we didn't take her statement when she denied saying all 
those things, because we didn't believe them. We were down there about 
three hours. We went down there to try and get Minola McKnight out, 
if we could. We asked Mr. Dorsey to get her out. He said he would let 
us stand her bond, and he referred us to the detectives to make arrange- 
ments. As to why we didn't get her out then, we wanted a statement 
from her if we could get it. No, I didn't know that whenever the detec- 
tives got the story they wanted, they would let her out. As to my going 
to get her out and then grilling her for three hours, I didn't tell her I was 

[228] 

going to get her out; I went down there to get her out, but she left there 
before I did. She went out of the room. The detectives treated her very 
nice. They let her go after she made the statement. I knew they were 
holding her because she did not make a statement confirming her hus- 
band. It was not my object to make her statement agree with her hus- 
band's statement, but it was my duty as a good citizen to make her tell 
the truth. 

DR. S. C. BENEDICT, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am president of the State Board of Health. I was a member of 
the Board when Dr. Westmoreland preferred charges against Dr. Har- 
ris. Those minutes (State's Exhibit N) are correct. I desire to say 
that we do not wish to open up that question again. Dr. Westmoreland's 
charges are not recorded here. I don't think they were put on the min- 
utes. The reply to the charges were put in the minutes and the action of 
the Board. The minutes would show what action the Board took. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Dr. Harris' reply is not entered on the minutes. The reply of the 
Board to the charges is on the minutes. 
J. H. HENDRICKS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a motorman for the Georgia Railway & Electric Company. On 
April 26th I was running a street car on the Marietta line to the Stock 
Yards on Decatur Street. I couldn't say what time we got to town on 
April 26th, about noon. I have no cause to remember that day. The 
English Avenue car, with Matthews and Hollis has gotten to town prior 
to April 26th, ahead of time. I couldn't say how much ahead of time. I 
have seen them come in two or three minutes ahead of time; that day 
they came about 12:06. Hollis would usually leave Broad and Marietta 
Streets on my car. I couldn't swear positively what time I got to Broad 
and Marietta Streets on April 26th. I couldn't swear what time Hollis 
and Matthews got there that day. I don't know anything about that. 



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Often they get there ahead of time. Sometimes they are punished for it. 
J. C. McEWING, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a street car motorman. I ran on Marietta and Decatur Street 
April 26th. My car was due in town at ten minutes after the hour on 
April 26th. Hollis' and Matthews ' car was due there 7 minutes after the 
hour. Hendricks car was due there 5 minutes after the hour. The Eng- 
lish Avenue frequently cut off the White City car due in town at 12:05. 
The White City car is due there before the English Avenue. It is due 5 
minutes after the hour and the Cooper Street is due 7 minutes after. 
The English Avenue would have to be ahead of time to cut off the Cooper 
Street car. That happens quite often. I have come in ahead of time 

[229] 
230 

very often. I have known the English Avenue car to be 4 or 5 minutes 
ahead of time. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know when that happened or who ran the car. I don't know 
whether they ran on schedule time on April 26th, or not. When one car 
is cut off, one might be ahead of time, and one might be behind time. It's 
reasonable to suppose that the five minutes after car ought to come in 
ahead of the one due seven minutes after. If it was behind it would be 
cut off, just as easy as the other one would be cut off by being ahead. 
M. E. McCOY, sworn for the State, in rebuttal. 
I knew Mary Phagan. I saw her on April 26th, in front of Cool- 
edge's place at 12 Forsyth Street. She was going towards pencil com- 
pany, south on Forsyth Street on right hand side. It was near twelve 
o'clock. I left the corner of Walton and Forsyth Street exactly twelve 
o'clock and came straight on down there. It took me three or four min- 
utes to go there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I know what time it was because I looked at my watch. First time I 
told it was a week ago last Saturday, when I told an officer. I didn't tell 
it because I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I didn't consider 
it as a matter of importance until I saw the statement of the motorman 
of the car she came in on, and I knew that was wrong. She was dressed 
in blue, a low, chunky girl. Her hair was not very dark. She had on a 
blue hat. 

GEORGE KENDLEY, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am with the Georgia Railway & Power Co. I saw Mary Phagan 
about noon on April 26th. She was going to the pencil factory from 
Marietta Street. When I saw her she stepped off of the viaduct. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was on the front end of the Hapeville car when I saw her. It is 
due in town at 12 o'clock. I don't know if it was on time that day. I told 
several people about seeing her the next day. If Mary Phagan left home 
at 10 minutes to 12, she ought to have got to town about 10 minutes after 
12, somewhere in that neighborhood. She could not have gotten in much 
earlier. The time that I saw her is simply an estimate. That was the 



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time my car was due in town. I remember seeing her by reading of the 
tragedy the next day. I didn't testify at the Coroner's inquest because 
nobody came to ask me. No, I have not abused and villified Frank since 
this tragedy. No, I have not made myself a nuisance on the cars by talk- 

[230] 

ing of him. I know Mr. Brent. I didn't tell him that Mr. Frank's child- 
ren said he was guilty. Mr. Brent asked me what I thought about it sev- 
eral times on the car. He has always been the aggressor. As to whether 
I abused and villified him in the presence of Miss Haas and other passen- 
gers, there has been so much talk that I don't know what has been said. 
I don't think I said if he was released I would join a party to lynch him. 
Somebody said if he got out there might be some trouble. I don't remem- 
ber saying that I would join a party to help lynch him if he got out. I 
talked to Mr. Leach about it. I don't remember what I told him. I told 
him I saw her over there about 12 o'clock. That was the time the car was 
due in town. I know I saw her before 12:05. My car was on schedule 
time. I couldn't swear it was exactly on the minute. 
HENRY HOFFMAN, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am inspector of the street car company. Matthews is under me a 
certain part of the day. On April 26th he was under me from 1 1 :30 to 
12:07. His car was due at Broad and Marietta at 12:07. There is no 
such schedule as 12:07 .1 have been on his car when lie cut off the Fair 
Streetcar. Fair Street car is due at 12:05. I have compared watches 
with him. They vary from 20 to 40 seconds. We are supposed to carry 
the right time. I have called Matthews attention to running ahead of 
schedule once or twice. They come in ahead of time on relief time for 
supper and dinner. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I don't know anything about his coming on April 26th. We found 
out he was ahead of time way along last March. He was a minute and a 
half ahead. I have caught him as much as three minutes ahead of time 
last spring, on the trip due in town 12:07. I didn't report him, I just 
talked to him. I have known him to be ahead of time twice in five years 
while he was under my supervision. 
N. KELLY, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a motorman of the Georgia Railway & Power Co. On April 
26th, I was standing at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta Street about 
three minutes after 12. I was going to catch the College Park car home 
about 12:10. I saw the English Avenue car of Matthews and Mr. Hollis 
arrive at Forsyth and Marietta about 12:03. 1 knew Mary Phagan. She 
was not on that car. She might have gotten off there, but she didn't 
come around. I got on that car at Broad and Marietta and went around 
Hunter Street. She was not on there. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I didn't say anything about this because I didn't want to get mixed 
up in it. I told Mr. Starnes about it this morning. I have never said 

[231] 



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anything about it before. That car was due in town at 12:07. The Fair 
Street car was behind it. 

W. B. OWENS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I rode on the White City line of the Georgia Railway & Electric Co. 
It is due at 12:05. Two minutes ahead of the English Avenue car. We 
got to town on April 26th, at 12:05. I don't remember seeing the Eng- 
lish Avenue car that day. I have known that car to come in a minute 
ahead of us, sometimes two minutes ahead. That was after April 26th. 
I don't recall whether it occurred before April 26th. 
LOUIS INGRAM, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a conductor on the English Avenue line. I came to town on 
that car on April 26th. I don't know what time we came to town. I have 
seen that car come in ahead of time several times, sometimes as much as 
four minutes ahead. I know Matthews, the motorman. I have ridden 
in with him when he was ahead of time several times. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

It is against the rules to come in ahead of time, and also to come in 
behind time. They punish you for either one. 
W. M. MATTHEWS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I have talked with this man Dobbs (W. C.) but I don't know what I 
talked about. I have never told him or anybody that I saw Mary Phagan 
get off the car with George Epps at the corner of Marietta and Broad. 
It has been two years since I have been tried for an offense in this court. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was acquitted by the jury. I had to kill a man on my car who as- 
saulted me. 

W. C. DOBBS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
Motorman Matthews told me two or three days after the murder 
that Mary Phagan and George Epps got on his car together and left at 
Marietta and Broad Streets. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 
Sergeant Dobbs is my father. 
W. W. ROGERS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
On Sunday morning after the murder, I tried to go up the stairs 
leading from the basement up to the next floor. The door was fastened 

[232] 

down. The staircase was very dusty, like it had been some little time 

since it had been swept. There was a little mound of shavings right 

where the chute came down on the basement floor. The bin was about a 

foot and a half from the chute. 

SERGEANT L. S. DOBBS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 

I saw Mr. Rogers on Sunday try to get in that back door leading up 

from basement in rear of factory. There were cobwebs and dust there. 

The door was closed. 

0. TILLANDER, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 

Mr. Graham and I went to the pencil factory on April 26th, about 20 

minutes to 12. We went in from the street and looked around and I found 

a negro coming from a dark alley way, and I asked him for the office and 



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he told me to go to the second floor and turn to the right. I saw Conley 
this morning. I am not positive that he is the man. He looked to be 
about the same size. When I went to the office the stenographer was in 
the outer office. Mr. Frank was in the inner office sitting at his desk. I 
went there to get my step-son's money. 
E. K. GRAHAM, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I was at the pencil factory April 26th, with Mr. Tillander, about 20 
minutes to 12. We met a negro on the ground floor. Mr. Tillander asked 
him where the office was, and he told him to go up the steps. I don't 
know whether it was Jim Conley or not. He was about the same size, 
but he was a little brighter than Conley. If he was drunk I couldn't 
notice it, I wouldn't have noticed it anyway. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Frank and his stenographer were upstairs. He was at his desk. 
I didn't see any lady when I came out. 
J. W. COLEMAN, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I remember a conversation I had with detective McWorth. He ex- 
hibited an envelope to me with a figure" 5" on the right of it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

This does not seem to be the envelope he showed me. (Defendant's 
Exhibit 47). The figure "5" was on it. I don't see it now. I told him 
at the time that Mary was due $1.20, and that "5" on the right would not 
suit for that. 

[233] 

J. M. GANTT, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I have seen Leo Frank make up the financial sheet. It would take 
him an hour and a half after I gave him the data. 
IVY JONES (c), sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I saw Jim Conley at the corner of Hunter and Forsyth Streets on 
April 26th. He came in the saloon while I was there, between one and two 
o'clock. He was not drunk when I saw him. The saloon is on the oppo- 
site corner from the factory. We went on towards Conley's home. I left 
him at the corner of Hunter and Davis Street a little after two o'clock. 
HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I picked up cord in the basement when I went through there with 
Mr. Frank. Lee's shirt had no color on it, excepting that of blood. I got 
the information as to Conley's being able to write from McWorth when 
I returned to Atlanta. As to the conversation Black and I had, with Mr. 
Frank about Darley, Mr. Frank said Darley was the soul of honor and 
that we had the wrong man; that there was no use in inquiring about 
Darley and he knew Darley could not be responsible for such an act. I 
told him that we had good information to the effect that Darley had been 
associating with other girls in the factory; that he was a married man 
and had a family. Mr. Frank didn't seem to know anything about that. 
He said it was a peculiar thing for a man in Mr. Darley's position to be 
associating with factory employees, if he was doing it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 
We left after about two hours interview. 



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L. T. KENDRICK, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I was night watchman at the pencil factory for something like two 
years. I punched the clocks for a whole night's work in two or three min- 
utes. The clock at the factory needed setting about every 24 hours. It 
varied from three to five minutes. That is the clock slip I punched 
(State's Exhibit P). I don't think you could have heard the elevator on 
the top floor if the machinery was running or any one was knocking on 
any of the floors. The back stairway was very dusty and showed that 
they had not been used lately after the murder. I have seen Jim Conley 
at the factory Saturday afternoons when I went there to get my money. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I generally got to the factory about a quarter of two to two-thirty. 
The clock was usually corrected every morning. The clock would run 
slow sometimes and sometimes fast. 

[234] 

VERA EPPS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 

My brother George was in the house when Mr. Minar was asking us 

about the last time we saw Mary Phagan. I don't know if he heard the 

questions asked. George didn't tell him that he didn't see Mary that 

Saturday. I told him I had seen Mary Phagan Thursday. 

C. J. MAYNARD, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 

1 have seen Burtus Dalton go in the factory with a woman in June 

or July, 1912. She weighed about 125 pounds. It was between 1:30 and 

2 o'clock in the afternoon on a Saturday. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I was ten feet from the woman. I didn't notice her very particu- 
larly. I did not speak to them. 
W. T. HOLLIS, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
Mr. Reed rides out with me every morning. I don't remember talk- 
ing to J. D. Reed on Monday, April 29th, and telling him that George 
Epps and Mary Phagan were on my car together. I didn't tell that to 
anybody. I say like I have always said, that if he was on the car I did 
not see him. 

J. D. REED, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 

Mr. Hollis told me on Monday, April 28th, that Epps had gotten on 
the car and taken his seat next to Mary, and that the two talked to each 
other all the way as though they were little sweethearts. 
J. N. STARNES, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
There were no spots around the scuttle hole where the ladder is im- 
mediately after the murder. Campbell and I arrested Minola McKnight, 
to get a statement from her. We turned her over to the patrol wagon 
and we never saw her any more until the following day, when we called 
Mr. Craven and Mr. Pickett to come down and interview her. We stayed 
on the outside while she was on the inside with Craven and Pickett. They 
called us back and I said to her, " Minola, the truth is all we want, and if 
this is not the truth, don't you state it. And she started to put the state- 
ment down. Mr. Gordon, her attorney, was on the outside, and I told 
him we could go inside without his making any demand on me, and he 



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went in with me, and Mr. February had already taken down part of the 
statement and I stopped him and made him read over what he had al- 
ready taken down, and after she had finished the statement, Attorney 
Gordon went to Mr. Dorsey's office and then he came back to the police 
station. After he returned the affidavit was read over in the presence of 
Mr. Pickett, Craven, Campbell, Albert McKnight and Attorney Gordon 

[235] 

and she signed it in our presence. You (Mr. Dorsey) had nothing to do 
with holding her. You told me over the phone that you couldn't say what 
I could do, but that I could do what I pleased about it. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

No, I did not lock her up because she didn't give us the right kind of 
statement; as to the authority I had to lock her up, it was reasonable and 
right that she should be locked up. I did that for the best interest of the 
case I was working on. No, I didn't have any warrant for her arrest. 
She was brought to Mr. Dorsey's office by a bailiff by a subpoena. I took 
her away from Dorsey's office and put her in a patrol wagon. I expect 
Mr. Dorsey knew we were going to lock her up, but he did not tell us to 
do it. No, he didn't disapprove of it. I didn't know anything about her 
having made a previous statement to Mr. Dorsey. I think Mr. Dorsey 
said she had made such a statement. I saw her the next day in the sta- 
tion house. She didn't scream after leaving Dorsey's office until she 
reached the sidewalk. And then she commenced hollering and carrying 
on that she was going to jail; that she didn't know anything about it, or 
something like that. No, I had no warrant for her arrest. She had com- 
mitted no crime. I held her to get the truth. Mr. Dorsey told me I could 
turn her loose as I pleased. That was after she made the statement. I 
told him as to what had occurred and that her attorney, Gordon, was 
coming up there to see him. I told Col. Gordon that if it was agreeable 
with Col. Dorsey, that Minola could go as far as we were concerned. 
Well, Mr. Dorsey had more or less to do with the case that I was working 
on and I wanted to act on his advice and consent. He called me on the 
telephone and told me that if the chief thought it best or if we thought it 
best after conferring, to just let her go. 

DR. CLARENCE JOHNSON, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am a specialist on diseases of the stomach and intestines. I am a 
physiologist. A physiologist makes his searches on the living body; the 
pathologist makes his on a dead body. If you give any one who has 
drunk a chocolate milk at about eight o'clock in the morning, cabbage at 
12 o'clock and 30 or 40 minutes thereafter you take the cabbage out and 
it is shown to be dark like chocolate and milk, that much contents of any 
kind vomited up three and a half hours afterwards would show an abnor- 
mal stomach. It doesn't show a normal digestion. If a little girl who 
eats a dinner of cabbage and bread at 1 1 :30 is found the next morning 
dead at 3 a. m., with a rope around her neck, indented and the flesh stick- 
ing up, bruised on the eye, blood on the back of her head, the tongue 
sticking out, blue skin, every indication that she came to her death from 
strangulation, her head down, rigor mortis had been on her twenty hours, 



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the blood had settled in her where the gravity would naturally take it in 
the face, she is embalmed, formaldehyde is used and injected in the va- 
rious cavities of the body, including the stomach, a pathologist takes her 

[236] 

stomach a week or ten days after, finds cabbage of that size (State's Ex- 
hibit G) in the stomach, finds starch granules undigested, and finds in the 
stomach that the pyloris is still closed, that there is nothing in the first 
six feet of the small intestines; that there is every indication that diges- 
tion had been progressing favorably, and finds thirty-two degrees hydro- 
chloric acid, and if the pathologist is capable and finds that there was 
only combined hydrochloric acid and that there was no abnormal condi- 
tion of the stomach the six feet of the intestines was empty, I would say 
that the digestion of bread and cabbage was stopped within an hour after 
they were eaten. That would not be a wild guess in my opinion. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

The bruises on the head, the evidence of strangulation and other in- 
juries about the head are other possible factors which must be taken into 
consideration. Anything which disturbs the circulation of the blood, or 
hinders the action of the nerves controlling the stomach, especially the 
secretion, prevents the development of the characteristics found in nor- 
mal digestion one hour after a meal. I mean by mechanical condition of 
the stomach, no change in the size or thickness, or opening into the intes- 
tines, or size or thickness of intestines. The test should be made with 
absolute accuracy with these acids. The color test is generally accepted. 
A man's eye has to be absolutely correct to make the color test. The de- 
gree of acidity in a normal stomach varies from 30 to 45 degrees, accord- 
ing to the stomach and what is in it. The formaldehyde would make no 
change on the physical property on the pancreatic juice found in the 
small intestine after death. There would be hardly any change on its 
chemical property. When it comes in contact with the formaldehyde it 
is supposed to be preserved. It has some neutralizing effect on the al- 
kali present. That decomposes in time after death, unless hindered by 
some preservative. The hydrochloric acids in the stomach also disap- 
pear if the stomach has disintegrated and the preservative has disap- 
peared. It disappears like the other fluids and tissues of the body un- 
less hindered by some preservative agent. Sometimes digestion is de- 
layed a good deal even in a normal stomach by insufficient mastication, 
too much diluting of the juices, or anything that hinders the operation of 
the mechanical effect. Insufficient mastication is one of the commonest 
causes, also the taking of too much liquid. Fatigue occasioned by exten- 
sive walking would hinder it. If the walking was not too extensive to 
produce fatigue, it would help digestion in a normal stomach. Insuffi- 
cient mastication is the worst cause of delayed digestion. My estimate 
was that the cabbage was found an hour after the process of digestion 
had begun. I did not undertake to say when the digestion began. You 
can't tell by looking at food in a bottle how much the failure to masticate 
it delayed digestion in hours and minutes. It would be just an estimate. 
The physical appearance of that cabbage (Defendant's Exhibit 88) 



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shows indigestion by the layer, character and size, and area of separa- 

[237] 

tion between, and the character and arrangement of the layers below. 
The mere fact that it was vomited up would be proof positive that no 
scientific opinion could be made about it. To make a scientific test I 
would have to test the mechanism of the stomach, the time it was in there 
and the degree and presence of the different acids. The chocolate milk 
would not naturally stay in a normal stomach five or six hours. The cab- 
bage would stay in a normal empty stomach where there was a tomato 
also three or four hours. I never made any test of Mary Phagan's stom- 
ach and examined the contents of it. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

160 cubic cc. of liquid in the stomach taken out nine days afterwards 
would be a little in excess of what I would consider normal under the con- 
ditions already named. 

DR. GEORGE M. NILES, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I confine my work to diseases of digestion. Every healthy stomach 
has a certain definite and orderly relation to every other healthy stomach. 
Assuming a young lady between thirteen and fourteen years of age at 
11:30 April 26, 1913, eats a meal of cabbage and bread, that the next 
morning about three o'clock her dead body is found. That there are in- 
dentations in her neck where a cord had been around her throat, indicat- 
ing that she died of strangulation, her nails blue, her face blue, a slight 
injury on the back of the head, a contused bruise on one of her eyes, the 
body is found with the face down, rigor mortis had been on from sixteen 
to twenty hours, that the blood in the body has settled in the part where 
gravity would naturally carry it, that the body is embalmed immediately 
with a fluid consisting chiefly of formaldehyde, which is injected in the 
veins and cavities of the body; that she is disinterred nine days there- 
after; that cabbage of this texture (State's Exhibit G) is found in her 
stomach; that the position of the stomach is normal; that no inflamma- 
tion of the stomach is found by microscopic investigation; that no mu- 
cous is found, and that the glands found under this microscope are found 
to be normal, that there is no obstruction to the flow of the contents of the 
stomach to the small intestine; that the pyloris is closed; that there is 
every indication that digestion was progressing favorably; that in the 
gastric juices there is found starch granules that are shown by the color 
test to have been undigested, and that in that stomach you also find 
thirty-two degrees of hydrochloric acid, no maltose, no dextrin, no free 
hydrochloric acid (there would be more or less free hydrochloric acid in 
the course of an hour or more in the orderly progress of digestion of a 
healthy stomach where the contents are carbohydrates), I would say that 
indicated that digestion had been progressing less than an hour. The 
starch digestion should have progressed beyond the state erythrodex- 
trin in course of an hour. There should have been enough free acid to 
have stimulated the pyloris to relax to a certain extent, and there should 

[238] 



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have been some contents in the duodenum. I am assuming, of course, 
that it is a healthy stomach and that the digestion was not disturbed by 
any psychic cause which would disturb the mind or any severe physical 
exercise. I am not going so much on the physical appearance of the cab- 
bage. Any severe physical exercise or mental stress has quite an influ- 
ence on digestion. Death does not change the composition of the gastric 
juices when combined with hydrochloric acid for quite awhile. The gas- 
tric juices combined with the hydrochloric acid are an antiseptic or pre- 
servative. There is a wide variation in diseased stomachs as to diges- 
tion. 

GROSS EXAMINATION 

There are idiosyncracies in a normal stomach, but where they are too 
marked I would not consider that a normal stomach. I wouldn't say that 
there is a mechanical rule where you can measure the digestive power of 
every stomach for every kind of food. There is a set time for every stom- 
ach to digest every kind of food within fairly regular limits, that is, a 
healthy stomach. There is a fairly mixed standard. There is no great 
amount of variation between healthy stomachs. I can't answer for how 
long it takes cabbage to digest. I have taken cabbage out of a cancerous 
stomach that had been in there twenty-four hours, but there was no ob- 
struction. The longest time that I have taken cabbage out of a fairly nor- 
mal stomach was between four and five hours. That was where it was in 
the stomach along with another meal. I found the cabbage among the re- 
mains of the meal four or five hours after it had been eaten. Mastication 
is a very important function of digestion. Failure to masticate delays the 
starch digestion. Starch and cabbage are both carbohydrates. I would 
say that if cabbage went into a healthy stomach not well masticated, the 
starch digestion would not get on so well, but the stomach would get busy 
at once. Of course, it would not be prepared as well. The digestion 
would be delayed, of course. That cabbage is not as well digested as it 
.zhould have been (State's exhibit G), but the very fact of your anticipat- 
ing a good meal, smelling it, starts your saliva going and forms the first 
stage of digestion, and digestion is begun right there in the mouth, even 
if you haven't chewed it a single time. Any deviation from good masti- 
cation retards digestion. I couldn't presume to say how long that cab- 
bage lay in Mary Phagan's stomach. I believe if it had been a live, 
healthy stomach and the process of digestion was going on orderly, it 
would be pulverized in four or five hours. It would be more broken 
up and tricturated than it is. I wouldn't consider that a wild 
guess. I think it would have been fairly well pulverized in three 
hours. Chewing amounts to a great deal, but there should be an 
amount of saliva in her stomach even if she hadn't masticated it thor- 
oughly. Chewing is a temperamental matter to a great extent. One 
man chews his meal quicker than another. If it isn't chewed at all, the 
stomach gets busy and helps out all it can and digests it after awhile. It 

[239] 

takes more effort, of course, but not necessarily more time. What the 

teeth fail to do the stomach does to a great extent. The stomach has an 



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extra amount of work if it is not masticated. You can't tell by looking 
at the cabbage how long it had been undergoing the process of digestion. 
If that was a healthy stomach with combined acid of 32 degrees, and 
nothing happened either physical or mental to interfere with digestion, 
those laboratory findings indicated that digestion had been progressing 
less than an hour. I never made an autopsy or examination of the con- 
tents of Mary Phagan's stomach. 
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

The first stage of digestion is starch digestion. This progresses in 
the stomach until the contents become acid in all its parts. Then the 
starch digestion stops until the contents get out in the intestines and be- 
come alkaline in reaction; then the starch digestion is continued on be- 
yond. The alfactories act as a stimulant to the salivary glands. 
DR. JOHN FUNK, sworn for the State in rebuttal. 
I am professor of pathology and bacteriologist. I was shown by Dr. 
Harris sections from the vaginal wall of Mary Phagan, sections taken 
near the skin surface. I didn't see sections from the stomach or the con- 
tents. These sections showed that the epithelium wall was torn off at 
points immediately beneath that covering in the tissues below, and there 
was infiltrated pressure of blood. They were, you might say, engorged, 
and the white blood cells in those blood vessels were more numerous than 
you will find in a normal blood vessel. The blood vessels at some distance 
from the torn point were not so engorged to the same extent as those 
blood vessels immediately in the vicinity of the hemorrhage. Those 
blood vessels were larger than they should be under normal circum- 
stances, as compared with the blood vessels in the vicinity of the tear. 
You couldn't tell about any discoloration, but there was blood there. It 
is reasonable to suppose that there was swelling there because of the in- 
filtrated pressure of the blood in the tissues. Those conditions must have 
been produced prior to death, because the blood could not invade the tis- 
sues after death. If a young lady, between thirteen and fourteen years 
old eats at eleven thirty a. m. a normal meal of bread and cabbage on a 
Saturday and at three a. m. Sunday morning she is found with a cord 
around her neck, the skin indented, the nails and flesh cyanotic, the tongue 
out and swollen, blue nails, everything indicating that she had been 
strangled to death, that rigor mortis had set in, and according to the best 
authorities had probably progressed from sixteen to twenty hours, and 
she was laying face down when found, and gravity had forced the blood 
into that part of the body next to the ground, that it had discolored her 
features, that immediately thereafter, between ten and two o'clock she 
was embalmed with a fluid containing usual amount of formaldehyde, 
this being injected into the veins in the large cavities, she is interred 

[240] 

thereafter and in about a week or ten days she is disinterred, and you 
find in her stomach cabbage like that (State's Exhibit G) and you find 
granules of starch undigested, and those starch granules are developed 
by the usual color tests, and you also find in that stomach thirty-two de- 
grees of combined hydrochloric acid, the pyloris closed, and the duo- 



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denum, and six feet of the small intestines empty, no free hydrochloric 
acid being present at all, nor dextrin, or erythrodextrin being found in 
any degree, and the uterus was somewhat enlarged, and the walls of the 
vagina show dilation and swelling, I would say that under those condi- 
tions that the epithelium was torn off before death, because of the 
changes in the blood vessels and tissues below the epithelium covering, 
and because of the presence of blood. I would not express an opinion as 
to how long cabbage had been in the stomach, from the appearance of the 
cabbage itself, taking into consideration the combined hydrochloric acid 
of thirty-two degrees, the emptiness of the small intestine, the presence 
of starch granules, and the absence of free hydrochloric acid, one can't 
say positively, but it is reasonable to assume that the digestion had pro- 
gressed probably an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. 
CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Dr. Dorsey asked me to examine the sections of the vaginal wall last 
Saturday. The sections I examined were about a quarter of an inch wide 
and three-quarters of an inch long. It was about nine twenty-five thou- 
sandths of an inch thick, that is, much thinner than tissue paper. I ex- 
amined thirty or forty little strips. That was after this trial began. I 
was not present at the autopsy. As soon as a tissue receives an injury, 
it reacts in a very short time. The reaction shows up in the changes of 
the blood vessels. You can tell by the appearance of the blood vessels 
whether the injury was before death or not, and you can give an approx- 
imate idea as to the length of time before death. I do not know from what 
body the sections were taken. I know that it was from a human vagina. 
THE STATE CLOSES. 

EVIDENCE FOR DEFENDANT IN SUR-REBUTTAL. 
T. Y. BRENT, sworn for the Defendant in sur-rebuttal. 
I have heard George Kendley on several occasions express himself 
very bitterly towards Leo Frank. He said he felt in this case just as he 
did about a couple of negroes hung down in Decatur; that he didn't know 
whether they had been guilty or not, but somebody had to be hung for 
killing those street car men and it was just as good to hang one nigger as 
another, and that Frank was nothing but an old Jew and they ought to 
take him out and hang him anyhow. 

[241] 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have been employed by the defense to assist in subpoenaing wit- 
nesses. I took the part of Jim Conley in the experiment conducted by 
Dr. Win. Owens at the factory on Sunday.. 
M. E. STAHL, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal. 
I have heard George Kendley, the conductor, express his feelings 
toward Leo Frank. I was standing on the rear platform, and he said 
that Frank was as guilty as a snake, and should be hung, and that if the 
court didn't convict him that he would be one of five or seven that would 
get him. 

MISS C. S. HAAS, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal. 
I heard Kendley two weeks ago talk about the Frank case so loud 



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that the entire street car heard it. He said that circumstantial evidence 

was the best kind of evidence to convict a man on and if there was any 

doubt, the State should be given the benefit of it, and that 90 per cent, of 

the best people in the city, including himself, thought that Frank was 

guilty and ought to hang. 

N. SESTKOVITZ, sworn for the Defendant, in sur-rebuttal. 

I am a pawnbroker. I know M. E. McCoy. He has pawned his watch 

to me lately. The last time was January 11,1913. It was in my place of 

business on the 26th of April, 1913. He paid up his loan on August 16th, 

last Saturday, during this trial. This is the same watch I have been 

handling for him during the last two years. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

My records here show that he took it out Saturday. 

S. L. ASHER, sworn for the Defendant in sur-rebuttal. 

About two weeks ago I was coming to town between 5 and 10 minutes 

to 1 on the car and there was a man who was talking very loud about the 

Frank case, and all of a sudden he said: "They ought to take that damn 

Jew out and hang him anyway." I took his number down to report him. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

I have not had a chance to report since it happened. 

[242] 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [i] 1913 

..i 

Im 

J4 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [ii] 1913 
ADDITIONAL STATEMENT MADE BY DEFENDANT, 
LEO M. FRANK. 

In reply to the statement of the boy that he saw me talking to Mary 
Phagan when she backed away from me, that is absolutely false, that 
never occurred. In reply to the two girls, Robinson and Hewel, that they 
saw me talking to Mary Phagan and that I called her" Mary," I wish to 
say that they are mistaken. It is very possible that I have talked to the 
little girl in going through the factory and examining the work, but I 
never knew her name, either to call her "Mary Phagan," "Miss Pha- 
gan," or "Mary." 

In reference to the statements of the two women who say that they 
saw me going into the dressing room with Miss Rebecca Carson, I wish 
to state that that is utterly false. It is a slander on the young lady, and 
I wish to state that as far as my knowledge of Miss Rebecca Carson goes, 
she is a lady of unblemished character. 
DEFENDANT CLOSES. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT B. 

Frank's statement made before N. A. Lanford, Chief of Detectives, 
on Monday morning, April 28, 1913, this statement being unsigned: 
"I am general superintendent and director of the National Pencil 



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Company. In Atlanta I have held that position since August 10, 1908. 
My place of business is at 37 to 41 S. Forsyth St. We have about 107 em- 
ployees in that plant, male and female. I guess there are a few more girls 
than boys. Saturday, April 26th, was a holiday with our company and 
the factory was shut down. There were several people who came in dur- 
ing the morning. The office boy and the stenographer were in the office 
with me until noon. They left about 12 or a little after. We have a day 
watchman there. He left shortly before 12 o'clock. After the office boy 
and the stenographer left, this little girl, Mary Phagan, came in, but at 
the time I didn't know that was her name. She came in between 12:05 
and 12:10, maybe 12:07, to get her pay envelope, her salary. I paid her 
and she went out of the office. I was in the inner office at my desk, the 
furtherest office to the left from the main office. It was impossible to see 
the direction she went in when she left. My impression was that she just 
walked away. I didn't pay any particular attention. I didn't keep the 
door locked downstairs that morning because the mail was coming in. I 
locked it at 1:10 when I went to dinner. Arthur White and Harry Den- 
ham were also in the building. They were working on the machinery, 
doing repair work, working on the top floor of the building, which is the 
fourth floor, towards the rear or about the middle of the building, but a 
little more to the rear. They were tightening up the belts; they are not 
machinists; one is a foreman in one department and the other is an as- 

[243] 

sistant in another, and Denham was assisting White, and Mrs. White, 
the wife of Arthur White, was also in the building. She left about 1 
o'clock. I went up there and told them I was going to dinner and they 
had to get out, and they said they had not finished and I said, 'How long 
will it take ?' and they said until some time in the afternoon, and then I 
said, 'Mrs. White, you will have to go, for I am going to lock these boys 
in here.' Anyone from the inside can open the outside door, but not the 
inside door, which I locked. You can go in the basement from the front 
through the trap door. No, sir, they could get up the steps if I was out. 
I looked the outer door and the inner door. I got back at 3 o'clock, and 
maybe two or three minutes before, and I went to the office and took off 
my coat and then went upstairs to tell those boys I was back, and I 
couldn't find them at first, they were back in the dipping room in the 
rear, and I said,' Are you ready,' and they said,We are just ready,' and 
I said, All right, ring out when you go down to let me know when you go 
out,' and they rang out, and Arthur White come in the office and said, 
' Mr. Frank, loan me $2.00,' and I said,' What's the matter; we just paid 
off,' and he said, 'My wife robbed me,' and I give him $2.00 and he walked 
away, and the two of them walked out. I locked the outer door behind 
them. When I am in there is no need of locking the inner door. There 
was only one person I was looking for to come in, and that was the night 
watchman. He got there at 20 minutes to four. I had previously ar- 
ranged for him to get there. On Friday night I told him, after he got his 
money. I give him the keys and I said, 'You had better come around 
early to-morrow because I may go to the ball game,' and he come early 



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because of that fact; I told him to come early and he came 20 minutes to 
4. I figured that I could leave about 1 o'clock and would not come back, 
but it was so cold I didn't want to risk catching cold and I come back to 
the factory as I usually do. He come in and I said 'Newt, you are early,' 
and he said, 'Yes, sir,' and he had a bag of bananas with him and he of- 
fered me a banana; I didn't see them but he offered me one and I guess 
he had them. We have told him once he gets in that building never to go 
out; I told him he could go out; he got there so early and I was going to 
be there. He come back about 4 minutes to six; the reason I know that I 
was putting the clock slips in and the clock was right in front of me. I 
said, ' I will be ready in a minute,' and he went downstairs and I come to 
the office and put on my coat and hat and followed him and went out. 
When I went out, talking to Newt Lee was J. M. Gantt, a man I had fired 
about two weeks previous. Newt told me he wanted to go up to get a pair 
of shoes he left while he was working there, and Gantt said to me, "Newt 
don't want me to go up,' and he said, ' You can go with me, Mr. Frank,' 
and I said 'That's all right, go with him, Newt,' and I went on hime, and 
I got home about 6:25. Nothing else happened; that's all I know. I 
don't know what time Gantt came down after he went up. I saw him go in 
and I locked the door after him, but I didn't try them. I telephoned 
Newt. I tried to telephone him when I got home; he punches the clock at 
half hour intervals, and the clock and the phone is in the office, and I 

[244] 

didn't get an answer and at 7 o'clock I called him and asked him if Gantt 
got his shoes and he said yes, he got them, and I said is everything all 
right and he said yes, and the next thing I knew they called me at 7:30 
the next morning. I don't know that our watchman has been in the habit 
of letting people in the factory at any time. I have never heard of it. I 
never had any trouble with the watchman about it. As to whether any 
of our employees go there at night, Gantt did when he was working there; 
he had a key and sometimes he would have some work left over. I never 
have seen him go out until I go out. I go out and come back, but he hag 
come back before I left, but that is part of his duty. I took a bath Satur- 
day night at my home. I changed my clothes. The clothes that I changed 
are at home, and this is the suit of clothes I was wearing Saturday. Af- 
ter I left the shop I went to Jacob's Pharmacy and bought a box of candy 
for my wife and got home about 6:25." 
STATE'S EXHIBIT C. 

Piece of cord found around Mary Phagan's neck, about size of a 
heavy twine, with a knot in it. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT D. 

Rag that was found around Mary Phagan's neck, with blood on it. 
White piece of cloth, soiled. Looked as if it was a piece torn off from 
petticoat. 

STATE'S EXHIBIT E. 

Four or five chips of wood, with red splotches on them, chipped up 
from the second floor of the National Pencil Company factory in front of 
ladies dressing room. 



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STATE'S EXHIBIT F. 

Shirt found by detectives in trash barrel at Newt Lee's home. Shirt 
was very bloody; blood was on both sides of shirt and high up on arm- 
pits on the inside. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT G. 

Jar containing cabbage extracted from the stomach of Mary Pha- 
gan by Dr. Harris. Cabbage was not disintegrated, but was in a whole 
piece. 

STATE'S EXHIBIT H. 

Scratch pad that Conley wrote on. Ordinary white scratch pad. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT I. 

Portion of the signed statement of E. F. Holloway given to Solici- 
tor H. M. Dorsey: 
"I don't know C. B. Dalton. I do know Daisy Hopkins. She worked 

[245] 

at the factory not less than eight or ten months. I never did see any man 
go in the factory with Daisy Hopkins after the employees had gone on a 
Saturday. If they ever came there, they came after I left. I never did 
know of Daisy Hopkins or other girls going up in the factory on Satur- 
day afternoon with any men ... 

"This power box that runs the elevator is kept locked all the time. I 
keep it locked. The key is kept in the office. I locked it Saturday. I put 
the key back in the office. I always lock it and unlock it. I didn't go to 
the factory on Sunday. The key was hanging on the same nail on Mon- 
day." 

STATE'S EXHIBIT J. 

Affidavit executed by Minola McKnight for Solicitor Dorsey, as fol- 
lows: 

"State of Georgia, 
County of Fulton. 

Personally appeared before me, a notary public in and for the above 
State and county, Minola McKnight, who lives in the rear of 351 Pulliam 
St., Atlanta, Ga., who being duly sworn deposes and says: 
"On Saturday morning, April 26, 1913, Mr. Frank left home about 
eight o'clock, and Albert, my husband, was there Saturday, too. Albert 
got there I guess about a quarter after one and he was there when Mr. 
Frank come for dinner, which was about half-past one, but Mr. Frank 
did not eat any dinner, and he left in about ten minutes after he got there. 
Mr. Frank come back to the house at seven o'clock that night, and Albert 
was there when he got there. Albert had gone home that evening but he 
come back. I don't know what time he got there, but he come sometime 
before Mr. Frank did, and Mr. Frank eat supper about seven o'clock, 
and when I left there that night about eight o'clock, I left Mr. Frank 
there. 

"Sunday morning I got there about eight o'clock, and there was an 
automobile standing in front of the house and I didn't pay any attention 
to it. I saw a man in the automobile get a bucket of water and pour into 
it. Mr. Frank's wife was downstairs and Mr. and Mrs. Selig were up- 



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stairs. Albert was there Sunday morning, but I don't remember what 
time he got there. I called them down to breakfast about half past eight 
and I found out that Mr. Frank was gone. Mr. and Mrs. Selig eat break- 
fast, but Mrs. Frank didn't eat until Mr. Frank come back and then they 
eat breakfast together. I didn't hear them say anything at the breakfast 
table. After dinner I understood them to say that a girl and Mr. Frank 
were caught at the office Saturday. I don't know who said it, Miss Lucile 
(Mrs. Frank) and Mr. and Mrs. Selig and Mr. Frank were standing there 
talking, after dinner when they said it; I understood them to say it was a 
Jew girl. 

[246] 

STATE'S EXHIBIT K. 

Specimen of Frank's handwriting made by Frank for the detec- 

tiv es at the police station. 

,4-7 tA -4 C 

1-4 Z' 

I-, 

K/~- 

.'--/ 

- / 

ii,' ~a 

'I 

z~4 

J 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [v] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [vi] 1913 

"On Tuesday, Mr. Frank says to me, 'It is mighty bad Minola, I 

might have to go to jail about this girl, and I don't know anything about 

it.' 

"Sunday, Miss Lucile said to Mrs. Selig that Mr. Frank didn't rest 

so good Saturday night; she said he was drunk and wouldn't let her sleep 

with him, and she said she slept on the floor on the rug by the bed because 

Mr. Frank was drinking. Miss Lucile said Sunday that Mr. Frank told 

her Saturday night that he was in trouble, and that he didn't know the 

reason why he would murder, and he told his wife to get his pistol and let 

him kill himself. I heard Miss Lucile say that to Mrs. Selig, and it got 

away with Mrs. Selig mighty bad; she didn't know what to think. I 

haven't heard Miss Lucile say whether she believed it or not. I don't 

know why Mrs. Frank didn't come to see her husband, but it was a pretty 

good while before she would come to see him, maybe two weeks. She 

would tell me, 'Wasn't it mighty bad that he was locked up,' she would 

say, 'Minola, I don't know what I am going to do.' 

"When I left home to go to the solicitor general's office, they told 

me to mind how I talked. They pay me $3.50 a week, but last week they 

paid me $4.00, and one week she paid me $6.50. Up to the time of the 

murder I was getting $3.50 a week and the week right after the murder I 



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don't remember how much she paid me, and the next week they paid me 
$3.50, and the next week they paid me $6.50, and the next week they paid 
me $4.00 and the next week they paid me $4.00. One week, I don't re- 
member which one, Mrs. Selig gave me $5, but it wasn't for my work, 
and they didn't tell me what it was for, she just said, ' Here is $5, Min- 
ola.' I understood that it was a tip for me to keep quiet. They would 
tell me to mind how I talked and Miss Lucile gave me a hat." 
Q. "Is that the reason you didn't tell the solicitor yesterday all 
about this, that Miss Lucile and the others had told you not to say any- 
thing about what happened at home there?" 
A. "Yes, sir. 
Q. "Is that true?" 
A. "Yes, sir." 

Q. "And that's the reason you would rather have been locked up 
last night than tell?'" 
A. "Yes, sir." 

Q. "Has Mr. Pickett or Mr. Cravens or Mr. Campbell or myself 
influenced you in any way or threatened you in any way to make this 
statement? " 
A. "No, sir. 

Q. "You make it of your own free will and accord in their pres- 
ence and in the presence of Mr. Gordon, your attorney?" 
A. "Yes, sir." 

(Signed) MINOLA McKNIGHT. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me, this 3d day of June, 1913. 
(Signed) G.C.FEBRUARY, 
Notary public, Fulton County, Ga. 

[247] 

STATE'S EXHIBIT L. 

A small whip handle found by detective McWorth at the pencil 
factory. 

STATE'S EXHIBIT M. 

Clothes worn by Mary Phagan consisting of hat, hair ribbon (2), 
dress, corset with hose supporters attached, one broken, corset cover, 
knit undervest, underskirt, drawers (right leg torn and soiled with 
blood), pair of silk garters, pair of hose, pair of low shoes, handkerchief, 
parasol. 

STATE'S EXHIBIT N. 

Copy of the Minutes of the State Board of Health, found on pages 
144-145 thereof, reading as follows: 

"The President then addressed the Board at length on his reasons 
for thinking that the Secretary should be requested to resign, the sub- 
jects dealt with being too enormous and too lengthy to be included here 
in their entirety. After the President's address, the Board adjourned 
and re-assembled again at four o'clock in the afternoon, at which time 
Dr. Harris' side of the controversy was heard. 
"The Secretary not having been present at what transpired follow- 
ing this was not in a position to take note as to the proceeding, but was 



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informed by members on adjournment that it was their wish that he 
should still continue as Secretary and Director of the laboratories. 
"The President then made a short statement in support of his pro- 
test against the Secretary, and reiterated some of the charges made at 
the previous meeting, and in addition, made objection against the Secre- 
tary's action in sending out antitoxin No. 64, which had been shown by 
tests made in Washington to be of less potency than it was originally 
labeled, and also condemning the Secretary for replacing Dr. Paullin and 
personally taking up the investigation of the malarial epidemic around 
the pond of the Central Georgia Power Company. The President then 
stated that he would publish the charges against the Secretary if the 
Board did not take such action regarding them as he thought right and 
proper. At the conclusion of the President's address, a talk was made 
by Dr. Doughty, in which he took exception to the former's attitude, and 
insisted that every member of the Board wished to do what was best for 
the State Board of Health and the people of Georgia, and that every one 
connected with the Board of Health should be willing to bow to the de- 
cision of this body. He deprecated strongly the idea of giving to the 
press charges, the publication of which could do no good, and which could 
only result in harm. 

"On the President and Secretary being recalled an hour later the 
President pro tern, Dr. Benedict, read the following resolution, which 
has been unanimously adopted by the Board on motion of Dr. Harbin, 
seconded by Dr. Brown, the resolution having been drawn by a commit- 

[248] 

tee appointed by the Board, consisting of Drs. Benedict, Taylor and 
Doughty. 

" 'That the committee appointed to frame a resolution expressing 
the opinion of the Board with regard to the charges preferred against 
the Secretary by the President of the Board in a report to the Governor, 
and upon which they are called upon to act, beg to report as follows: 
" 'Resolved, That the members of the Board present, after care- 
fully considering the charges and all evidence in its possession, unani- 
mously agree that while there have been certain slight irregularities in 
the conduct of some departments of the laboratories of the State Board 
of Health, which should be corrected, these irregularities have not been 
so important in character or result as to call for or warrant the discon- 
tinuance of Dr. Harris as Secretary and Director of laboratories as de- 
manded by the President. The Board further directs that a copy of this 
resolution be transmitted to the Governor.' " 
STATE'S EXHIBIT 0. 
Telegram sent by Leo M. Frank: 
"Atlanta, Ga., April 28, 1913. 
"Mr. Adolph Montag, 
Care Imperial Hotel, New York. 

"You may have read in Atlanta papers of factory girl found dead 
Sunday morning in cellar of pencil factory. Police will eventually solve 
it. Assure my uncle I am all right in case he asks. Our company has 



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case well in hand. LEO M. FRANK." 

STATE'S EXHIBIT P. 

Time slip punched for Solicitor Dorsey by L. T. Kendrick: 

1 5.01 

2 5.30 

3 6.00 

4 6.29 

5 6.58 

6 7.38 

7 8.01 

8 8.29 

9 9.00 

10 9.30 

11 10.00 

12 10.30 

13 10.58 
14 

15 11.59 

16 12.30 

17 12.59 

18 1.29 

[249] 
250 

19 2.00 

20 2.31 

21 3.00 

22 3.30 

23 3.59 

24 4.30 

25 5.00 
26 

27 
28 
29 
30 

STATE'S EXHIBIT Q. 

Miss Hattie Hall's testimony before coroner's inquest, as follows: 
"He (Mr. Frank) came to Montag's before I went to his office, r 
went to his office after he went back, somewhere between 10:30 and 11. 
didn't notice the clock. As to whether I got any financial sheet on Mon- 
day, or not, I remember the previous Saturday I was at the pencil fac- 
tory and I helped him make up the financial sheet. I filled in part of it. 
I suppose by that he must have got it up. I transferred some of the 
things to that sheet. Mr. Frank made up most of the work and I trans- 
ferred some of the things to that sheet. I really don't remember whether 
it was morning or afternoon. It was morning. I don't work on Satur- 
day afternoons. I don't remember that I was in the inner office with him 
at any time except when I was taking the letters. He was pretty quiet in 



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there. I suppose he was at work." 
STATE'S EXHIBIT R. 

Accident report to the Insurance Company relative to Duffy's in- 
jury. 

Claim Division, Branch Office, The Travelers Insurance Company, 
608-609 Fourth National Bank Building, Atlanta, Ga. 
Immediate Report of Accident. 
Employee of National Pencil Company. 
Address, 37-41 S. Forsyth St. City, Atlanta. State, Georgia. 
Date and hour of accident, Oct. 4th, 1912, 9:30 a. m. 
Date of this report, Oct. 4th, 1912. 
(Name, J. E. Duffy. Address, 237 E. Fair St. 
Injured Person )Age, 21. Occupation, Running eyelet machine. 
I Weekly wages, $6.60. Married or Single? Married. 
General duties, Running machine. 

[250] 

The Machine, Appliance, (What was it? A piece of brass on machine, 
or Thing Immediately . In whose control at the time. His own self. 
Causing Accident I Was it sound and in good working order ? Yes. 
Place of Accident I Room or Dept. No. 18-A. No. Street. City or town. 
Carelessness of injured person? No. Viola- 
Contributing Causes tion or negligence of fellow workman? 
I No. Rules? No. 

Description. Said party was putting a roll of brass 
on his machine. This brass is very sharp, and 
The Accident same cut into flesh, nearly to the bone. 
Name and addresses of witnesses: L. A. Irwin, fore- 
man; Charlie Lee, machinist. 
(Nature and extent? Very painful cut to the bone, 
not serious if this brass does not cause poison 
The Injury ( to set in. 

rWas surgical aid rendered? Yes. When? At once. 
,By whom? Dr. Hancock. Where? Atlanta Hospital. 
Notice received by employer 10-4-12. 
H. G. SCHIFF, Employer. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT S. 

Portion of the affidavit made by Lemmie Quinn for Solicitor Dorsey 
as follows: 

"The doors that lead up to the back stairs, after work hours are 
locked, but this door at the back of my department, the lock had been 
broken off and we placed a bar across it. The idea of that was to keep 
employees from the fourth floor going down from that department and 
ringing out and getting their money before it was ready. Customarily 
it was closed. That was the purpose. There is no exit from the office to 
the street floor, except the front, there is a stairway leading from the of- 
fice floor to the floor above. The back stairway is ordinarily closed with 
that bar, which makes it impossible for anybody to come from the up- 
stairs down to the office floor. A man on the office floor could lift the bar 



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and walk out, but I should not think that a man could come down to the 
office from above at all... 

"I went uptown when I left home between 12 and 12:20. I got to the 
pool room about 12:30. . . He (Frank) said he didn't know that he 
would mention it, but he would mention it to his lawyers and see if they 
thought it was favorable to mention it. That must have been Wednes- 
day of last week." 
STATE'S EXHIBIT T. 

Court papers with reference to the police records of Jim Conley, be- 
ing seven in number. 

[251] 

Jas. Connelly, Disorderly Conduct, fined $1.75 7/22/1 904-Paid 
Jas. Connelly, same, fined $15.75, 10/15/07-Paid 
Jim Connelly, same, fined $1.75, 7/18/05 G. G. B. 
James Connelly, same, fined $10.75, 12/11/1907, G. G. B. 
James Connelly, same, fined $3.75, 11/14/1906-Paid 
Jimmie Connelly, same, fined $3.75, 3/5/1906— Paid 
James Connelly, same, sentenced 30 days, 9/10/1912 
STATE'S EXHIBIT U. 

Pay envelope found by Barrett under his machine on the second 
floor of the factory. Ordinary pay envelope used by factory officers in 
paying off employees. 
STATE'S EXHIBIT V. 

Portion of the testimony of Emil Selig before coroner's inquest as 
follows: 

"As to who else was present, my wife and his wife. They went to 
the opera before, probably, dinner was over, before he and I left. I 
stayed in the house. There was no one else there when he got there ex- 
cept me and my wife and him and his wife. The servant was there also. 
I am speaking about dinner time. I laid down a little while after dinner. 
I am sure about that. It was directly after dinner was over. Mr. Frank 
was in the hall. I think he laid down himself. My room is upstairs over 
the dining room. The telephone is in the dining room. Mr. Frank stayed 
quite a little while at dinner. I don't know exactly how long he stayed. 
No, he didn't leave before I got up. Yes, I took a nap. He came a little 
after one and we ate dinner and I laid down and took a considerable nap." 
STATE'S EXHIBIT W. 

Portion of testimony of Mrs. Josephine Selig before the coroner's 
inquest, as follows: 

"As to what he (Mr. Frank) said about this affair, I don't know if 
he made any reference to it. She (Mrs. Frank) had told me. I don't re- 
member that he said anything at all about this crime. He probably 
spoke of it in a general way. He is superintendent of the pencil factory. 
I think I would have remembered such a remark if he had made it. He 
said that there was a little girl found dead in the pencil factory that day. 
I didn't ask what her name was. I don't know that I asked any question 
at all, because I never really thought that it had any bearing on anything 
that I was interested in. It was not of interest to me. Naturally he 



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would be concerned about it. I think he did seem unconcerned about it. 
I don't think he seemed to attach any great importance to it. I don't 
think he had anything to say about getting anybody to see what was the 
matter, or see who did it. I don't know what was the occasion of the first 
remark that Mr. Frank made about the thing. I suppose he had been 
there only a few minutes. Yes, he spoke about it before dinner. He men- 
tioned the fact that a woman had been found down there. He mentioned 

[252] 

STATE'S EXHIBIT Y. 

Note found by policemen in sawdust beside body of Mary Phagan. 

written on white paper. 

/ 

-A—' V~22' 

/J 

- L.4.J' - '1 

I -A' 

I;4~-,/~j-~ 

I- 

t- - 

A J v'~f 

' r-'Ail//-/ 

J 

(He said he would love me, laid down play like the night witch did 

it but that Inm tall black negro did boy hi-elf). 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [vii] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [viii] 1913 

STATE'S EXHIBIT Z. 

Note found by policemen in sawdust bv side of the body of M[ary 

Phagan, written on yellow paper. 

37&39 SOUTH FORSYTH ST. 

ATLANTA, G A., .190 

PUT THIS ORDER NUMBER ON YOUR BILL. 

'Bell Phone Main 171. Order No. /Z 

(Mam that negro fire down here did this when i went t„ make 

water and he push me down a hole a long tall negn b]aek that did 

(had) it. i right while play with me). 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [ix] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [x] 1913 
253 

that just casually. He didn't remark about the youth of the child or 
about the brutality of the crime, or describe any of the wounds, or won- 
der who was suspected, or give any theory as to how it happened. I 
don't think he expressed any anxiety or curiosity, or advance any theory 
as to how the thing had happened. He read the paper. There was no 



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article about that in the paper. I cannot say that he dwelt on any arti- 
cle. Yes, he read the paper just as steadily and studiously as the night 
before. I don't think he made any difference at all. He did not seem to 
be a bit impressed on account of the thing having happened in the pencil 
factory. 1 1 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1. 
Time slip, dated April 26th, taken out of clock by Frank:. 

101 601 

102 632 

103 700 

104 732 

105 800 

106 831 

107 906 

108 932 

109 1029 

110 1104 

111 1200 

112 107 

113 135 

114 203 

115 301 

116 330 

117 

118 

119 

120 

121 

122 

123 

124 

125 

126 

127 

128 

129 

130 

131 

132 

133 (Erasure made here) 

134 

135 

136 

137 

138 

138 

139 

140 

141 



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142 

143 

144 

145 

146 

147 

148 

149 

150 

151 

152 

153 

154 

155 

156 

157 

158 

159 

160 

161 

162 

163 

164 

165 

166 



[253] 

167... 

168... 

169... 

170... 

171 ... 

172... 

173 ... 

174... 

175 ... 

176... 

177... 

178 ... 

179 ... 
180... 
181 ... 
182... 
183 ... 
184... 
185 ... 
186... 
187... 
188... 



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189 

190 

191 

192 

193 

194 

195 

196 

197 

198 

199 

200 

Date April 28, 1913. 

Solicitor Dorsey stated in open court that he had made the erasure 
noted on this time slip, supposing it to have been put there by the detec- 
tives, the words erased being "Taken out 8:26 a. m." 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 3. 
Data sheet, being part of financial sheet. 
PRODUCTIONS: 
WEEK ENDING 4/24/13 
Gross Production 
Net Production 
Repacked good 
Repacked cheap 
Value repacked 
Rubber inserted 
Rubber cheap 
Rubber good 
Lead good 
Lead cheap 
Lead large 
Lead copy 
Boxes 

Assortment boxes 
Skeletons 

Tips delivered good 
Tips delivered cheap 
Protectors, ends 
Wrappers 
Cartons 
27651 
27191/2 
10 
36 

$70.00 
720 
6671/ 
706 
747 



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1955 

1 

161/ 

3771 

279 

642 

512 

830-1342 

2535 

88 

Lead deliveries 

940/2- 1045 -852/7-964 

940/3- 260 852/6-794 

930/2- 724 

Slats delivered, Gr.: 

Good 

Cheap 

Jobs Gr. 

Jobs value 

Jobs average 

Payroll, Forsyth St. 

Payroll, Bell St. 

Payroll, Mch. Shop 

Shipments Gr. 

Shipments 

Orders received Gr. 

Orders received 

791 

386.75 

.50 

1,060.05 

114.75 

70.00 

4374 

$5,438.78 

1904 

$3,320.31 

[254] 

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AA 

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Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

CU~ ~ AJ 

UI "-04 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [iii] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [iv] 1913 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 3-(Continued) 

Average of Jobs (part of data sheet). 

180- 

1- 

16 

44 

169 

33 

29 

178 

13 

38 

87 

3 

991 

095- 

114- 

90 

111 

7x 

090 

006- 

3's 

75 

70 

504 

112 

.40 

1.10 

.70 

.70 

.50 

.40 

.65 

.35 

1.00 

.90 

.50 

.70 

50- ;/10c av. 

$72.00 

1.10 

11.20 



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30.80 

84.50 

13.20 

18.85 

72.30 

13.00 

34.20 

43.50 

2.10 

396.75 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4a. 

Packing room reports, being part of data for finanical. 

NATIONAL. PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Dept. Packing 

264-55 Oxford 

383-37 Trumps 

385-35 Trumps 

No. 1 Ass't 

939-20 G Wash 

688-40 J Monroe 

315-10 P Cedar 

Med 

Good 

Date 4/41/13 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Monday Tuesday 

Dept. No. 13 Dept. Packing Dept. No. 13 

46 86-510 Packard No. 2 46 

52 97-420 Surety No. 2 29 

1 271-950 Genius 21 

6 199-910 N Emblem 18 

116-210 Bowers Prog 5 

105/, 

121 

7 

128 

16 

105 

1361/2 

386 

Signed EULA 

264-55 Oxford 

150 Mystic N. T. 

155 Mystic N. T. 

Date 4/22/13 



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88 

Signed EULA 

[255] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4a-(Cont'd) 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Wednesday 

Dept. Packing Dept. No. 13 

86-510 Packard No. 2 5 

274-T.O. Bell Lee Drug Co. 8 

199-910 N. Emblem 24 

271-950 Genius 25 

90-210 Cadillac No. 2 311 

71-630 Worth 2752 28 

Date 4/23/13 

122 

Signed EULA 

D 

2 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Wednesday 

)ept. Packing Dept. No. 13 

64-55 Oxford 982 

120 Broadway 

34-45 Trumps 

No. HOAsstSmi 

939-20 G. Wash 

688-40 J. Monroe 

5 

16 

th Paper 25 

Cr 144 

78 

3 

Date 4/23/13 

347 

Signed EULA 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4aa. 

Repack- 

Apr. 25, 1913-Repack from Apr. 17, to Apr. 24 

18 gross 22.50 -35x 

18 gross 22.50 37x 

10 gross 25.00 930x 0. K. (Signed) EULA 

46 70.00 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

[256] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4a-(Continued). 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Fri 

Dept. Packing Dept. 

725 N. Copying 

91-210 Cadillac No. 3 

87-510 Packard No. 3 

199-910 Nat. Emblem 

62-660 University School 

1 17-450 Luxury No. 2 N.T. 

326-210 Khedive No. 2 

No. 1920 Ass't Nat. Flyer 

Date 4/18/13 Signed I 

day 

o. 13 

35 

2 

60 

521/- 

1 

22 

2 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Saturday 

Dept. Packing Dept. No. 13 

271-950 Genius 92 

91-210 Cadillac No. 33 

199-910 N. Emblem 3 

116-210 Bowers Prog No. 2 6 

760 Thesis Writing No. 2 1 

23 

264-55 Oxford 

1561/. 378-155 Mystic 

ULA 

939-20 G. Wash. 

315-10 P. Cedar 

Good 

Date 4/19/13 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Monday 

Dept. Packing Dept. No. 13 

397-430 Sitting Bull 121/ 



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86-510 Packard No. 2 341/2 

91-210 Cadillac No. 36 

116-210 Bowers Prog 291/2 

120-210 Khedive No. 2 N. T. 6 

271-950 Genius 321/2 

97-420 Surety No. 2 91/2 

No. 1920 Ass 'tN. Flyer 6 

1361/2 

Date 4/21/13 Signed EULA 

Good 

66 

99 1/21 

165/2 

69 

53 

23 

310 

Signed EULA 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Dept. Packing 

939-20 G. Wash 

688-40 J. Monroe 

R.I. 

Med. 

Good 

Date 4/21/13 

Tuesday 

Dept. No. 13 

94 

11 

105 

89 

119 

313 

Signed EULA 

[257] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4a-(Cont'd) 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Thursday 

Dept. Packing Dept No. 13 

90-210 Cadillac No. 2 6 

91-210 Cadillac No. 32 

116-210 Bowers Prog 151/2 

271-950 Genius 71 



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274-470 Thoroughbred 43 

No. 15 Ass't Princely Cards 15 

34-45 

Ass't 

Ass't 

153 

Trumps 36 

No. 48 S. Bgn Hse Sp 50 

No. 53 Southwestern 

No. 115 50 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Dept. Packing 

939-20 G. Wash. 

688-40 J. Monroe 

R.I. 

Med. 

Good 

Date 4/24/13 

Thursday 

Dept. No. 13 

34 

20 

343 

Signed EULA 

Date 4/24/13 

136 

Signed EULA 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4b. 

Job Department reports, being part of data for financial sheet 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Dept. Job. 

504 Pol sec 

090 

506 

3's " 3's 

90 "sec 

095 " 3's 

7x " sec 

Dept. No. 22 

59 

20 

10 



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12 

10 

133 

30 

Dept. Job. 

504 Pol sec 

3's "3's 

74 " sec 
111"" 
112 

90 

506 

70 

75 " 

Signed FANNIE A Date 4/23/13 

Dept. No. 22 

12 

69 

111 

25 

3 

3 

8 

16 

3 

250 

Signed F.L. A. Date 4/21/13 

[258] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4b-(Cont'd) 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO. 

Atlanta, Ga. 

Daily Report. 

Dept. Job. 

1 1 1 Pol see 

74 " " 

09 " " 
506 " " 
3's " 3's 

75 see 
70 

504 

Date 4/24/13 

Dept. No. 22 

19 

28 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

13 

11 

97 

10 

22 

16 

216 

Signed FANNIE A 

Dept. Job. 

90 Pol see 

114 it 

095 " 3's 

Dept. No. 22 

3 

1 

47 

51 

216 

267 

Date 4/24/13 Signed FANNIE A 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4c. 

Daily report 

financial sheet. 

lBo 

24 

2i 

2i 

2i 

of lead deliveries from lead plant, part of data for 

)x 3992 

3993 

3994 

3995 

3996 

9 Box 

3 Box 3863 

2 " 3910 

3 " 3911 

3 " 3912 
19 Box 

2 Box 3976 

4 " 3978 
4 " 3979 
29 Box 

4 Box 3980 
4 " 3981 
910/No 2 
2 
940/No. 3 



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940/No. 3 

852/7 

852/7 

852/7 

(Signed) 

Gross 

1045 Gross 

260 

197 

335 

292 

2192 Gross 

260 

347 

347 

3787 Gross 

352 

352 

704 Gross 

G. WEINKAUF. 

Apr/21, 1913 

[259] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 4d. 

Report of tip deliveries from tip plant, being part of data for 

financial sheet. 

Weekly report of Metal Dept, No. 18, April 24, 1913. 

Large Eyelet Mach. 

Small Eyelet Mach. 

Trimming Mach. 

Knurling Mach. 

404 

440 

644 

835 

Tips delivered- 

No. 6 

No. 10 

No. 12-Re-dipped 

No; 17 

(Signed) L. A. 

1,377 

QUINN. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 5. 

Average (of orders) sheet, being a complete record (beginning with 

the week ending Jan. 16, 1913) of the number of orders received each 

week, classified as to price under different headings, said number being 

totaled at the end of each week and the average price ascertained. The 

following is a record only of orders for the factory month of April, 1913: 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

WEEK ENDING 4/3/13. 

Friday 28 

Saturday 29 

Monday 31 

Tuesday 1 

Wednesday 2 

Thursday 3 

Total gross 

Price per gross 

Total value 

60 cts. 

159 

3 

5 

10 

12 

24 

213 

.60 

127.80 

,5,505.43 

R.I. 

413 

28 

258 

17 

165 

154 

1035 

.80 

828.00 

100 

thru 

140 

307 

30 

81 

47 

1321/ 

621 

12181/2 

1.25 

1,523.13 

3682 gr. 

150 500 300 

thru thru and 

195 295 over 

117 453 105 

265 



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7 126 35 

14 78 15 

7 122 301/2 

6 70 15 

154 855 2061/2 

1.75 2.50 3.00 

269.51 2,137.50 619.50 

1.50 av. 

[260] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 5 -(Continued). 

WEEK ENDING 4/10/13. 

Friday 4 

Saturday 5 

Monday 7 

Tuesday 8 

Wednesday 9 

Thursday 10 

Total gross 

Price per gross ... 

Total value 

60 cts. 

33 

31 

106 

10 

5 

15 

R.I. 

162 

19 

101 

30 

156 

100 

thru 

140 

280 

38 

188 

48 

2 

232 

150 

thru 

195 

572 

12 

118 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

10 

8 

28 

200 468 788 696 

.60 .80 1.25 1.75 

120.00 374.40 985.62 128.00 

$4,428.27 2774 

WEEK ENDING 4/17/13. 

100 

thru 

60cts. R.I. 140 

Friday 11 

Saturday 12 

Monday 14 

Tuesday 15 

Wednesday 16 ... 
Thursday 17 .... 

Total gross 

Price per gross... 

Total Value .... 

6 

5 

10 

55 

76 

.60 

45.60 

1852 gr. 

150 

thr 

195 

200 

thru 

295 

53 

47 

1541/2 

67 

4 

90 

325 

2.50 

833.75 

1.60 av. 

200 

thru 

295 

250 

104 9 5 26 



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11308 26 

10 7 4- 14 

173 276 2171/2 365 

298 322 

.80 1.25 

238.40 8,412.50 

$3,460.88 

WEEK ENDING 4/24/13. 

Friday 18 

Saturday 19 

Monday 21 

Tuesday 22 

Wednesday 23 .... 

Thursday 24 

Total gross 

Price per gross... 

Total value 

60cts. R.I. 

9 103 
26 

53 118 
28 205 
15 5 

10 29 
115 
.60 
69.00 
$3,320.31 
48 

.8 

388.8 

100 

thru 

140 

65 

81 

791/2 

115 

28 

11 

234 681 

1.75 2.50 

410.38 1,702.58 

$1.89 av. 

150 

thru 

195 

9 

13 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

20 

101 

5 

200 

thru 

295 

122 

52 2 

83 

9 

161/2 

110 

6 379 148 393 

1.25 1.75 2.50 

474.38 259.88 983.75 

1904 gr. $1.74 av 

300 

and 

over 

51 

16 

86 

74 

2 

67 

286 

3.00 

889.50 

300 

and 

over 

5 

10 

1 

6 

198 

220 

3.00 

661.50 

300 

and 

over 

95 

16 

17 

153 

100 

381 

3.00 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

1,144.50 

[261] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 6. 

Value of shipments for week ending April 
for financial sheet. 
18th 

24, being part of data 
11.35 
38.37 
27.00 
23.40 
40.00 
124.80 
14.20 
38.82 
23.39 
17.50 
14.66 
27.00 
10.90 
8.90 
107.50 
14.86 
14.92 
73.04 
43.90 
21.25 
135.10 
51.63 
69.55 
24.34 
114.00 
29.39 
17.84 
15.07 
75.99 
13.70 
740.55 
33.25 
12.38 

Shipments Week Ending 4/24/13 
Apr. 18 400.75 
19 482.00 

21 1146.06 
22 1457.95 

23 706.63 
24 1245.57 
5438.78 



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19th 

21st 

/ 12.00 

16.67 

2 10.00 

22nd) 13.70 

138.30 

1267.28 

[262] 

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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [v] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [vi] 1913 

XORe 

,Ids X09Z 

IdS X096 

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dOIT 

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£0T# 

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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [viii] 1913 

TVILOl '0,>.\01' 

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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [ix] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [x] 1913 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 6-(Continued). 

23rd 

24th 

183.70 

13.04 

23.95 

29.45 

29.18 

28.80 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

260.00 
20.00 
23.04 
18.49 
14.13 
30.00 
27.70 
5.13 
204.32 
644.40 
145.00 
63.33 
28.00 
27.75 
13.48 
119.29 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 8. 

Eight carbon copies of eight letters, all dated April 26, 1913, and ad- 
dressed to 

Schroder & Lombard Engraving Co., 18 Franklin St., N. Y. 
Henry Diston & Sons, Philadelphia, Pa. 
J. G. McCrory Co., 621 Broadway, N. Y. 
Southern Bargain House, Richmond, Va. 
American Zylacq Co., Inc., 8 Livingston St., Newark, N. J. 
A. J. Sossner, 154 Duane St., N. Y. 
The Pullman Co., Chicago, 111. 
Schroder & Lombard, 18 Franklin St., N. Y. 

and signed "National Pencil Company, by , Supt." On 

each letter are the initials 1 1 LMF :HH. ' 

Each letter acknowledges receipt of letter received from the firm ad- 
dressed and whose names are set forth above (which original letters from 
said firms are attached to the respective carbon copy which it purports to 
answer), and have to do with matters of business connected with the Na- 
tional Pencil Company. 

[263] 

DEFENDANT'S. EXHIBIT 9. 

A large book containing all of the financial sheets of the National 
Pencil Company, beginning with the week ending November 25,1909, and 
ending with the week ending April 24, 1913. Each of these sheets pur- 
port to cover the financial operations of the National Pencil Company 
for the respective week named thereon, and in form is identical with the 
sheet of April 24, 1913, set forth herein as "Defendant's Exhibit 2." 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 10. 

A small receipt book containing the following receipts: 
April 19, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 15 cents-kero- 
sene. (Signed) Nute Lee, F. 

April 21, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 75 cents -type 
(Signed) A. Mann, F . 



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April 21, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. two dollars-dray. 

(Signed) Truman McCrary. 

April 21, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co $2.50— cases. 

(Signed) John Glass. 

April 21, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 35 cents-express, 

Warner. (Signed) So. Express Co., F. 

April 21, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 50 cents-postage 

stamps. (Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 21, 1913. Received of- National Pencil Co. 3 cents-parcel 

post. (Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 22, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $2.00 rent two weeks 

typewriter. (Signed) Underwood Typewriter Co., F. 

April 22, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $1.25-cases. 

(Signed) Dan Reid, F. 

April 22, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co $1.70-dray 

(Signed) Truman McCrary. 

April 22, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 45 cents-supplies. 

(Signed) Mr. Schneegass. 

April 22, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $3.50-cases. 

(Signed) John Glass, F. 

April 23, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $1.75— cases. 

(Signed) Dan Reid, F. 

April 23, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 85 cents-inv. 

2-1-13. (Signed) King Hdw. Co., Green. 

April 23, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $1.50-dray. 

(Signed) Truman McCrary. 

April 24, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 50 cents-postage 

stamps. (Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 24, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $1 1.50-tinsmith 

job. (Signed) Paul Armbrust, R. F. D. No. 3, Atlanta, Ga. 

[264] 
265 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT lO-(Continued). 
April 24, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 13 cents-parcel 
post. (Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 24, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 5 cents-thread. 
(Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 24, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $1.00-dray. 
(Signed) Truman McCrary. 

April 25, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 10 cents-care- 
fare. (Signed) A. Mann, F. 

April 26, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $2.00-dray. 
(Signed) Truman McCrary. 

April 26, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. 75 cents -express. 
(Signed) So. Express Co., F. 

April 26, 1913. Received of National Pencil Co. $4.00 time for 
office work. (Signed) Herbert Wright, F. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 11. 



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Comparison sheet, 1912,-1913, being part of data for financial sheet: 
Comparison 1912-13. 
(45hrs.) 1912 

Payroll 

Machine Shop 

Expense 

M aterial Cost 

Total Expenditures 

Net Value Productions 

Apparent Results-Deficit 

Value shipments 

Productions: Net 

Good 

M edium 

Cheap 

Jobs 

Per cent. Jobs 

Remarks: 

19120 55 hrs. work. 

Week Ending Apr. 24/13 

1913 

$1,036.15 $1,052.55 

47.75 70.00 

1,584.55 1,623.20 

1,271.46 1,552.55 

2,856.01 3,175.75 

2,431.22 3,066.31 

424.79 Def. 109.44 

3,323.22 5,438.78 

2,509 Gr. 4,374 Gr. 

2,1321/2 2,7191/2 

4571/2 700 

829 629 

546 599 

300 791 

14% 29% 

[265] 

Cp 

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I 

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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xv] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xvi] 1913 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS 14 to 24, INCLUSIVE. 
Eleven original orders addressed to the National Pencil Co., At- 
lanta, Ga., signed by the following firms: 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 57, St. Joseph, Mo. 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 68, Terre Haute, Ind. 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 253, Logansport, Ind. 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 585, DeKalb, 111. 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 25, Wilkesbarre, Pa. 
F. W. Woolworth Co., Store No. 262, Saratoga Springs, N. Y. 
Soo 5 and 10 Cent Store, Sault Ste. Marie, Mich. 
Buetell Bros. Co., Dubuque, Iowa. 
Montag Bros., Atlanta, Ga. 
John Magnus Co., Chicago, 111. 
R. E. Kindell & Co., Cincinnati, 0. 

Said orders request the National Pencil Company to ship to said 
respective firms, at once, certain merchandise (pencils) noted therein. 
Each of said orders describes the quantity of pencils desired, the style 
number and a complete description of the kind of pencils wanted, name, 
color, shape, etc. On each order respectively is stamped the National 
Pencil Company's number as follows: "House No. 7187; House No. 
7188; House No. 7189; House No. 7190; House No. 7191; House No. 
7192; House No. 7193; House No. 7194; House No. 7195; House No. 7196; 
House No. 7197; House No. 7198; House No. 7199." There is also 
stamped on each of said orders the following: "Acknowledged, April 
26, 1913, by H. H.," and also "Shipped complete, April 28, 1913," with 



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the exception of the order of R. E. Kindell & Company, House No. 7197, 
which is marked on the face of it" Cancelled June 17, 1913," the letter of 
R. E. Kindell & Company cancelling said order being attached thereto. 

[267] 

[268] 

DEFENDANT'S EXMBIT 25. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows:. 

House No. 

7187 Date April 26 19L 
Slemf I -. P. Order No. 4/24/13 
NATIONAL PENCIL CO., ATLTA. 
MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto F.W.W.Co. No. 57 A 617 Felix Str. 

Ship When at once St. Joseph, 

Remarks: Mo. 

Sam No. Amount Ume orftmab April 28, 10135 

45x 4 #4 4 

220x 1/2 #4 1- 

280x 1/2' #4 172 

440x 1/2 #5 V/2 

720x 172 W.P. 

630x 1/2 _/_ 

910 17-/2 

902 -172 _/ 

430 1/2 _/_ 

240 T2 i/_ 

Date 

uomplOte Apri 28J.93 

8tt-... 

Shipped Complete 

April 28,1913 

2700 

[269] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 26. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 
House No. 

7188 Date -A-nril 26,1913 -191- 
Salesman }E! Order No. .. ;41 
NATIONAL PENCIL CO., "GA. 
MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto F..WOW.co #468 At TereHnltA 

Ship When at orlcO 

Remarks: Tnd. 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks April 28 1913 

37 1 1 

35 3 3 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

45 2 _2 
120 2 2 
156 3 3 
920 1 1 
910 1 1 
O.K. 
HGS 

ctnpke to- 
Apr.2131_l 
hipped Complete- 
Apr. 28,191a 
2701 
270 

[270] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 27. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

House No. 

7 1 89 Date April 26,1913 1 91._ 

Salesman I D. P. Order No. 4/22/1 3 

BUil to 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., G'"A. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto FoW@W.CO #25 At Logansport 

Ship When At once 

Remarks: c/o Penna Ry Ind. 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks April 28,101" 

10 44 

37 1 1 

35 1 1 

20 2 30 Sub.Pls. 

45 1 

140 1 

155 1 - 

660 1 

630 1 

910 1 -. 

1002 1 

10031 _ 

430 1/2 -riZ 

02K 

uomp-t e 

shipped Complete 

'- Aril 28,19 1;5 

[271] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 28. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. X Frank, as follows: 

House No. 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

7190 Date Ar. 2&. 193 191_ 
S lman }D.P 

Order No... .o— 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., A., 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto F.W.W.Co. #585 At 347 E. Main St. 

Ship When at once DeYaib. Ill, 

Remarks: 

Sales No. Aippot Name or Remarks April 21, ,19 3 

10 4.4 

20 2 30SubPts. 2 

37 2_2 

35 2 

12 

45 22 12 2_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2 

Compi, te 

SHIPPED COMPLETE 

AFR.2891913 

2704 

[272] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHBIT 29. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

House No. 

7191 Date April 26,1913 191 

SI emanl D.P. OrderNo. 4/24/13 

Bill to . 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., ATGA. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto F.W.W.Co. #5 At Wilkes-Barre, 

Ship When c/o Penna Ry Penna 

Remarks: at once 

SalesNo. Amount Name or Remarks April 29, 19 T 

10 5 5 

35 5 5 

770 2 #3 

430 5 

640 2- 

240 2 

902 1 1 

280 172 #2 1/2 

-280 172 #3 a/2 

280 172 #4 Til 

440 1 #2 

440 1 #3 - 

440 1 #4_1 

IP 

EMS 

OS 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

CoDple te 

~Comp~ 4cel 

Shi~nt' _" 

Aprij 29,1 rl i 

A 9,- 1913 om-'Lt 

April 299 11 

[273] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 30. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

House No. 

7192 Date Apr. 26,1913 191_ 

to DP Order No. 4/24/13 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., GA. 

MANU FACTU RERS 

Shipto F.W.W.Co. #262 At Saratoga Springs, 

Ship When at once N.Y. 

Remarks: a/o Q. & H. Ry. 416-18 Broadway 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks . 4/21 

10 5 5 

20 5 30 Sub Pts. 5 



37 1 - 


35 1 1 


45 1 - 


120 1 1 


140 1 I 


155 1 1 


770 1 #3 I 


660 1_ 


630 1 - 


920 1 930 Sub. 


910 1 - 


950 1 - 


430 1 - 


220 #3 


220 1 #4 


640. 1 1 


1002 1/2 


1003 1 - 


280 1-2 #2 1L12 


280 -7- #3 -12 


480 1/2 tl/ 


440 1/2 . 


720 1/2 WPOK 


HGS 


z'. .f. .,_.A?APT. ,Tr. 

I 


I 12699 


274 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

JAA2699 
AW 00 
QI 7' 

[274] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 31. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

House No. 

71Q.-Date9T4 1.QI 19.1 

Salesman! Ma il Order No-- C4355 

Bill to 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., GTA. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto Soo 5 & 10c Store At Sault Ste.Marie, 

Ship When August 1 St Mich. 

Remarks: 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks 

10 10 

35-37 5 Asstd 

45 5 

910 5 

640 5- 

1002 2 

1003 2 

Best Route to -Chicago 
then hy wntePr 
Ii-II-.l - 

[275] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 32. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

House No* 

7194 Date Apr. 26,1913 191_ 

Woman} ..CG OrderNo. 4/23/13 

Blto 

4 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., GA. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto Buetell Bros. Co. At 819-859 Clay Str. 

Ship When at onoe Dubuque, Iowa 

Remarks: 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remoas May 6 191 

480 5 5 

210 5 5 

55 25 25 

20 20 20 

30 25 25 

OK 

(Saipping Clerk 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

Include all B'O's with thi 3- - 
eompiat 

-May 6,193 

My6,1913 
n27Z3 

[276] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 33. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 
House No. 

7195 Date April 26,1913 191_ 
Salesman) Faoty Order No. 4/26/13 
Bill to J 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., G-'A. 

MANU FACTU RERS 

Shipto Montag Bros. At Atlanta, 

Ship When At once Ga. 

Remarks: 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks Jay 26,913 

135x 50 Blks. sub. 35 gro.Pts. 50 

1900 10 added 4/29 "__ 

1920 10 Transferred 

1540 10 "__0 

1910 10 "iO 

40x50 added 5/6/13 50 

420x 2 2" " 2 

420x 10 5/26/13 iO 

O.K.- 

BUS. 
FWLEB 
May6.,1913 
in-"y 28,92: 

[277] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 34. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 
House No. 

7196 Date April 26.1913 191 
SalesmenaJno Lawrie & Sons OrderNo.I4 
Bill to 

O 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., AA. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto John Magnus Co. At 1055 W. 35th St. 

Ship When at once 

Remarks: Chicano, 111. 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks April 28, 19 3 

1-5x25 25 

O.K. 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

HGS 

crful selection "of goods. 

Complete 

Shipmant 

April 28.1 13 

hipped Complte 

April 28019J.3 

2698 

EEI- 
I 

[278] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 35. 

Requisition sheet in handwriting of Leo. M. Frank, as follows: 

HoUse No, 

7197 Date Apr. 26,1913 i.L_ Satdmn I H. G. reo 

BSutoH * Order No. 4/24/13 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., ATTA,. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Shipto R.E.Kindell & Co. At 312 Plum St. 

Ship When at once Cincinnati, 

Remarks: Ohio 

Sales No. Amount Name or Remarks 

L60x:-p. 50 F.O. 154 5/1 2 

No stamp 

Hold 

CANCELLED 

tsi-"i/+ 

[279] 

Date. 191... 

Salesman 

D 

191_ 

Bill to IOrderNo._ 

NATIONAL PENCIL CO., ATLANA. 

MANUFACTURERS 

Ship to 

At_ _ _ _ _ 

Ship When 

Remarks: 

Sale No. Amount Nnme or Remarks 

280 

[280] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 36. 

Statement of James Conley Made to John R. Black and H. Scott at Po- 
lice Barracks, Atlanta, Ga., Sunday, May 18, 1913. 
My full name is James Conley. I reside 172 Rhodes Street with 



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Lorine Jones, who claims to be from Marietta, Ga. This woman is not 
my wife, and I have been living with her a little over two years. I have 
been having intercourse with Lorine Jones. I have been employed as 
elevator man and roustabout at the National Pencil Co. factory in At- 
lanta for the past two years. Before going to the pencil factory, I was 
employed by Dr. L. Palmer at Broad and Mitchell Streets, as a buggy 
driver. I worked for him for about one year. Previous to that time I 
worked for the Orr Stationery Co., Atlanta, as driver of wagon. Pre- 
vious to that time I worked for Adam Woodward, as a stable hand for 
a year and three months. Previous to that time I worked for Mr. Copes' 
wood yard, Atlanta, for five years. I am now 27 years of age, single. 
On Saturday, April 26, 1913, 1 arose between 9 a. m. and 9:30 a. m. 
and ate my breakfast. At 10 :30 1 left the house, 172 Rhodes Street, and 
went to Peters Street and visited a number of saloons between Fair and 
Peters and Haynes and Peters Street. I purchased a half pint of rye 
whiskey from a negro who was walking along Peters Street about 1 1 :00 
a. m., I paying 40 cents for this whiskey. I visited the Butt- In saloon 
and went back to the pool tables and saw three colored men shooting 
dice, and I joined them and won 90 cents from them. I then purchased 
some beer, paying 15 cents. I then walked up the street and visited 
Earley's beer saloon, purchased two beers and wine, paying ten cents 
for same. This was all the money I spent on Peters Street, and I arrived 
home at 2:30 p. m. and I found L. Jones there and she asked me if I had 
any money. I replied yes, and gave her $3.50 (one dollar in greenback, 
and the rest silver money). I drew $3.75 from the pencil factory on Fri- 
day, April 25, between 6:00 and 6:30. I spent 15 cents for meats on Fri- 
day night. Before receiving the $3.75 I did not have any money in my 
pocket. At 3:30 p. m. or 4:00 p. m., Saturday, April 26th, I purchased 15 
cents worth of beer and then returned to the house, and sent the little girl 
out to get ten cents worth of stove wood and five cents worth of pan sau- 
sage. I remained at home all Saturday night and at 12 o'clock noon, Sun- 
day, April 27th, I walked up on Mitchell Street and got a cigarette, re- 
maining there until 12:45 p. m., and returned home, remaining until 6:30 
p. m., when I went to my mother's house, 92 Tattnall Street, and got my 
lunch, and then returned home and I remained at home until Monday, 
April 28th. On April 28th I reported for work at the pencil factory at 
7:05 a. m. 
(Signed) JAMES CONLEY. 

[281] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 37. 

Statement of James Conley of May 24, 1913. 

STATE OF GEORGIA, 

COUNTY OF FULTON. 

Personally appeared before me, the undersigned, a Notary Public, in 

and for the above State and County, James Conley, who being sworn on 

oath says: 

On Friday evening before the holiday, about four minutes to one 

o'clock, Mr. Frank come up the aisle and asked me to come to his office. 



Visit www.LeoFrank.org 

That was the aisle on the fourth floor where I was working, and when I 
went down to the office he asked me could I write and I told him yes I 
could write a little bit, and he gave me a scratch pad and told me what to 
put on it, and told me to put on there" dear mother,"" a long, tall, black 
negro did this by himself," and he told me to write it two or three times 
on there. I wrote it on a white scratch pad, single ruled. He went to his 
desk and pulled out another scratch pad, a brownish looking scratch pad, 
and looked at my writing and wrote on that himself, but when I went to 
his office he asked me if I wanted a cigarette, and I told him yes, but they 
didn't allow any smoking in the factory, and he pulled out a box of cigar- 
ettes that cost 15 cents a box, and in that box he had $2.50, two paper dol- 
lars and two quarters, and I taken one of the cigarettes and handed him 
the box and I told him he had some money in the box, and he said that was 
all right I was welcome to that for I was a good working negro around 
there, and then he asked me where Gordon Bailey (Snowball they call 
him) was, and I told him on the elevator, and he asked me if I knew the 
night watchman and I told him no sir, I didn't know him, and he asked 
me if I ever saw him in the basement and I told him no sir, I never did see 
him down there, but he could ask the fireman and maybe he could tell him 
more about that than I could, and then Mr. Frank was laughing and jol- 
lying and going on in the office, and I asked him not to take out any money 
for that watch man I owed, for I didn't have any to spare, and he told me 
he wouldn't, but he would see to me getting some money a little bit later. 
He told me he had some wealthy people in Brooklyn, and then he held his 
head up and looking out of the corner of his eyes and said "Why should I 
hang?" and that's all I remember him saying to me. When I asked him 
not to take out any money for the watch, he said'you ought not to buy any 
watch, for that big fat wife of mine wants me to buy her an automobile 
but he wouldn't do it; I never did see his wife. On Tuesday morning af- 
ter the holiday on Saturday, before Mr. Frank got in jail, he come up the 

[282] 

aisle where I was sweeping and held his head over to me and whispered 
to me to be a good boy and that was all he said to me. 
(Signed) JAMES CONLEY. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 24th day of May, 1913. 
(Signed) G.C.FEBRUARY, 
Notary Public, Fulton County, Georgia. 
(Seal) 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 38. 
Statement of Jim Conley, May 28, 1913. 
STATE OF GEORGIA, 
COUNTY OF FULTON. 

Personally appeared before me, a Notary Public, in and for the 
above State and County, James Conley, who being duly sworn, on oath 
says: 

I make this statement, my second statement, in regard to the mur- 
der of Mary Phagan at the National Pencil Factory. In my first state- 
ment I made the statement that I went to the pencil factory on Friday, 



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April 25, 1913, and went to Frank's office at four minutes to one, which 
is a mistake. I made this statement in regard to Friday in order that I 
might not be accused of knowing anything of this murder, for I thought 
that if I put myself there on Saturday, they might accuse me of having 
a hand in it, and I now make my second and last statement regarding 
the matter freely and voluntarily, after thinking over the situation, and 
I have made up my mind to tell the whole truth, and I make it freely and 
voluntarily, without the promise of any reward or from force or fear of 
punishment in any way. 

I got up Saturday morning, April 26th, between 9 and half past 9. 
I was at home, 172 Rhodes Street. There is a clock on the Atlanta Uni- 
versity and I looked at that clock after I put on my clothes; I went to 
the door and poured some water out of the wash pan and then I looked 
at the clock on the Atlanta University, but I forgot what time it was 
exactly, but I remember it was between nine and half past nine. Then 
I washed my face and I eat some steak and some liver and bread and 
drank a cup of tea, and then I sat down in a chair a little while, about ten 
minutes, I guess, and then I told my wife to give me back the three dol- 
lars and I would get some paper money to keep her from losing it, to pay 
her rent with, and she gave it to me, and I told her I was going to Peters 
Street, and I went to Peters Street, and stopped at the beer saloon near 
the corner of Peters and Haynes Street and I bought two beers there 
for myself and give another fellow a beer, I don't know what his name 
was, but they call him Bob. I don't know where he works, but he had a 
whip over his shoulder. I stayed in that saloon 3 or 4 minutes, just long 
enough to drink that beer, and then I walks up to the Butt- In Saloon and 

[283] 

walks back to the pool table, and there were four fellows back there 
shooting dice, five with me, one was named Joe Bobs, and one was named 
Bob Williams, and I won 90 cents. I don't know how long we were shoot- 
ing for we were shooting on the sly, unbeknownst to the bar tender. I 
guess we were shooting about ten minutes, and then I come to the bar 
and bought a glass of beer there at the Butt- In Saloon, and then I went 
to Earley's beer saloon on Peters St. and I bought a glass of beer there 
and I walked back to the toilet and stood there and made a cigarette and 
then bought another glass of beer, and I come out and bought a half pint 
of whiskey and I drank some of the whiskey, and then I started to the 
Capitol City Laundry and on my way there I met Mr. Frank, at the cor- 
ner of Forsyth and Nelson Streets going to Montags, and he told me to 
wait a few minutes, and he asked me where I was going, and I told him I 
was going to the Capitol City Laundry to see my mother, and he didn't 
say nothing, only he said to wait a minute until he come back, that he was 
going to see the Montags, and I stood there until he come back, he was 
gone about 20 minutes, I guess. He come back and told me to come to 
the factory, that he wanted to see me, and I went to the factory with him, 
walking behind him, and he stopped at the Curtis Drug Store at Forsyth 
and Mitchell Streets and he got a drink, and I waited on the outside 
until he come out, and then he told me to come on and I went to the fac- 



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tory with him. He had a box with him, which he carried with him to the 
Montag's; it has an opener to it, and after we got to the factory, Mr. 
Frank took the box and put it there at the trash barrel, which was just to 
the right of the steps as you go in, he put a box there for me to sit on. 
There was some great big boxes back further. He told me to sit down 
there until I heard him whistle. He just took his foot and pushed a box 
over there for me to sit on. Then he told me not to let Mr. Darley see 
me, and after Mr. Frank went up the steps, in a few minutes here comes 
a young lady downstairs, that was Miss Mattie. I think she had on a 
dark red suit and a rain cloak and a parasol in her hand, but I didn't 
notice her hat. Then here come Mr. Darley down, and he had on a 
gray suit of clothes didn't have any hat on his head, and he stopped Miss 
MAattie at the front door, and when he stopped her I saw Miss Mattie 
with a handkerchief wiping her eyes, it seemed to me like she had been 
crying, and then I heard Mr. Darley say to her, "Don't worry, I will 
see that you get that next week," and they stood there and talked 
awhile, but I could not hear anything else they said, then she went on 
out the door and Mr. Darley came back up the steps, and Mr. Darley 
stayed up there a good while, then he come down and left and I did not 
see him anymore. Then here comes Mr. Holloway down, about five min- 
utes after Mr. Darley had gone; Mr. Holloway went out on the side- 
walk and stood there three or five minutes and then he come and went 
back up the steps, and then here come another colored fellow, a pegged- 
legged one, and he went up the steps, he had some bills in his hands, and 
Mr. Holloway come back down with the pegged-legged one and went out 
on the sidewalk and looked at the fellow's wagon, but what he said to 

[284] 

him I don't know. It was a wagon that had sides to it and I didn't see 
the name on it. It wasn't a regular dray, I don't think, it looked like it 
might have come from that plate glass company on Alabama street. 
Then Mr. Holloway went back upstairs and it wasn't long before Mr. 
Holloway come back down and was gone for good. I don't know how 
long, but I guess he stayed upstairs long enough to put on his coat and 
hat. I saw Mr. Holloway turn up to his right towards Hunter Street, 
then there comes another lady into the factory, and she had on a green 
looking dress, she works on the fourth floor, and she walked with her 
head down, sort of stoop shouldered, she works for Arthur White. She 
stayed up there 7 or 8 minutes and then she come back down with her 
money in her hand, and she stood just a little opposite me and tore the 
envelope open right there and took her money out and counted it, and 
she shut her hand up and went out the door and she turned towards 
Hunter Street, and about 15 or 20 minutes after there, there wasn't 
any passing at all, and I sat there on the box with my head against the 
trash barrel. I stretched my feet out and put my hat in my lap, but I 
couldn't say whether I went to sleep or not, and the next thing that at- 
tracted my attention, Mr. Frank whistled for me twice, just like this 
(indicating), and when he whistled I went on up the stairs and the double 
doors on the stairway were closed and I opened them and they shut them- 



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selves, and Mr. Frank was standing at the top of the steps and he said, 
"You heard me, did you ?" and I said " I Yes, sir," and Mr. Frank grab- 
bed me by my arm and he was squeezing my arm so tight his hand was 
trembling. He had his glasses on, and he had me just like he was walk- 
ing down the street with a lady, and like he didn't want me to look behind 
me at all, and I thought it was because he had me so tight that made him 
tremble, and he carried me through the first office and into his private 
office, and then he come back in there, and he didn't say nothing, he grab- 
bed up a box of sulphur matches, and he went back in the outer office, the 
door was open between his office and the outer office, and then he saw 
two ladies coming and he said to me," Gee, here comes Miss Emma Clark 
and Miss Corinthia Hall" and he come back in there to me, he was 
walking fast and seemed to be excited, and he said to me, "Come right 
in here, Jim," and he motioned to the wardrobe and I was a little slow 
about it and Mr. Frank grabbed me and gave me a shove and put me in 
the wardrobe and he shut the doors and told me to stay there until after 
they had gone, and I just heard Miss Emma say "Good morning, Mr. 
Frank, are you alone?" and Mr. Frank said "Yes," and I couldn't hear 
them say nothing else, but I didn't know it was Miss Corinthia Hall until 
Mr. Frank spoke and said it was, but I heard Miss Emma's voice; they 
didn't stay there long, until they were gone. I didn't hear them. The 
next move was Mr. Frank come and let me out of the wardrobe. I don't 
remember Miss Hall and Miss Clarke using the telephone, if they did 
I didn't hear them and I didn't see them myself. I stayed in the ward- 
robe a pretty good while, for the whiskey and beer I had drank got me 
to sweating. I couldn't hear them talking, only I heard Miss Emma say, 

[285] 

"Good morning." If they had been talking loud I could have heard 
them, but if they were talking low I couldn't. If they went upstairs, Mr. 
Frank must have kept right behind them, to see that they didn't take off 
anything. Then after awhile Mr. Frank he come into the office and he 
pulled out one of those round chairs from under the desk. The first 
thing, he let me out of the wardrobe and I said, "I got too hot in there," 
and he said, "Yes, I see you are sweating." When he opened the door I 
was fixing to step out, and his eyes were looking larger than they usually 
look, and he jerked the door open and I was right there in front of the 
door, and then Mr. Frank said to me to sit down in a chair, in the one 
that turns all the way round, and when I sat down he told me to get up 
and shut the door; that was the door between his office and the stenog- 
rapher's office, and I got up and shut it, and he said, "Jim, can you 
write ?" He was sitting down facing me and he brushed back his hair 
and I said" Yes, sir, I can write a little bit, Mr. Frank," and then he give 
me a pencil that he got off the top of his desk, and there was nothing on 
it, he turned a sheet over for me to write, and then he told me what to 
put there, he told me to put on there "dear mother, a long tall black 
negro did this by hisself," and when I went to put down "negro" I put 
it "n-e-g-r-o-s" and he said don't put no "s" there, he said that means 
negros and he said now rub the "s" off and I rubbed the "s" out, and he 



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said, "It means just one person like yourself," and he told me to write 
it again and I written it, and he looked at it and slapped me on the back 
and said " That's all right, old boy, " and he said " write it again," and I 
written it for him three times. Then Mr. Frank reared back in his chair 
and asked me if I wanted to smoke and I told him "Yes, sir," and hr 
taken out a cigarette for himself and handed me the box and he sort of 
turned around when he handed me the box and I taken out a cigarette 
and he handed me the box of matches, and I taken out a cigarette and lit 
it and saw some money in the box and I handed the box of cigarettes 
back and he told me that was all right to keep them, and I told him he 
had some money in the box and he said that was all right, I could have 
that. I taken it and stuck it in my pocket and then Mr. Frank looked 
around at me and held up his head towards the top of the house and said 
"Why should I hang, I have wealthy people in Brooklyn." I didn't 
know what'he was talking about, I didn't have any idea in the world what 
he was talking about, and he was winking and rubbing his hands together 
and touching me on the shank with his foot and took a deep breath, he 
said "Why should I hang?" and shook his head and rubbed his hands 
together. Then he asked me where was Snowball (Gordon Bailey), and 
I told him I didn't know sir, and he asked me did I know the night watch- 
man, and I told him no sir, I didn't know the night watchman personal- 
ly, I just knew him by passing him, and he asked me if I had seen him in 
the basement at any time and I told him no sir, that he would have to ask 
the fireman about that, for he was down in the basement more than any 
of us was, and when I told Mr. Frank that he stuck one finger in his 
mouth and said "S-s-s-h, that's all right," and then Mr. Frank told me 

[286] 

he was going to take that note I had written and send it off in a letter to 
his people when he wrote, and recommend me to them, because I was a 
good working negro around there, and he liked me, and when Mr. Frank 
said that I said "Don't take out another dollar for that watchman," and 
he said "All right, I won't," and he said, "Idon't see why you want 
to buy a watch, because that'big fat wife of mine wanted me to buy her 
an automobile but I won't do it." I didn't say nothing about that for 
it didn't concern me, and didn't seem to concern the subject he was 
talking about at first, and then Mr. Frank told me when he wrote that 
letter he would not forget about me and he said "Well, I will see you later 
about this," and I said "All right, Sir," and then he reached in his 
pocket and pulled out his watch and said, "It is nearly time for me to be 
going to dinner," but I didn't look at the watch. Then I asked Mr. Frank 
if that was all he wanted with me right now, and he said yes, and then I 
asked him again, "Do you mean I can have what's in the box sure 
enough, Mr. Frank," and he said "Yes," but all the time though he was 
talking and jollying and going on with me, and I began to think it was 
something, for a white man to be playing with a negro, and during the 
time he cast his eyes up to the top of the house and said, "Why should I 
hang, I have wealthy people in Brooklyn." I never did know where Mr. 
Frank's home was, I thought this was his home all the time. Then Mr. 



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Frank said "I will see you Monday, if I live and nothing happens, 
James," and I said "Well, is that all you want for good Mr. Frank?" 
and he said "Yes," and I saw him go to his desk and take out a brownish- 
looking scratch pad. The one I wrote on was white and was single ruled 
and I saw him take out a brownish-looking one from his desk and he took 
his pencil and made a mark on it. I took it to be an" M," but he shut the 
tablet up and looked at me and told me that was all he wanted with me, 
and he come all the way to the top of the steps and he come three or four 
steps down to where he could see me until I hit the sidewalk, it seems as 
if he was watching me to see if I would take anything as I went out, but 
there was nothing to take unless I took a great big box, but when I passed 
those two doors on the steps there, Mr. Frank told me to leave one of them 
open, and I taken a little piece of iron they have there, and pushed it 
against the door to keep it from shutting and went on out in the street, 
and I pulled the front doors to as I went out, and I went to the beer saloon 
across the street and opened the cigarette box and it had two paper 
dollars in there and two silver quarters, and I laughed and said "Good 
luck has done struck me," and I bought a ten-cent double header and 
then went back to Peters street, and hadn't none of the boys got there 
that I run with and I walks up there to the moving picture show and 
looked at the pictures and they didn't seem to be any good, and I come 
back down Peters Street looking for that fellow I got the half pint 
whiskey from, but I couldn't find him, and I struck out for home, and 
when I got home it was about half past two o'clock, and I took the bucket 
and went to Joe Carr's at Mangum and Magnolia Street, and got fifteen 
cents worth of beer in it and come back home and sent the little girl to 

[287] 

get a dime's worth of stove wood and a nickle's worth of pan sausage, 
and I eat half the pan sausage up raw, and I give my old lady $3.50, and 
the other little change I kept it, and I layed down across the bed and there 
is where I stayed until about half past eight that night, and I got up and 
set in front of the fire a little while and got to swimming at the head, and 
then here comes her sister, and after she left I went to bed and I didn't 
leave home no more until twelve o'clock Sunday, in the day time, and I 
walked up Mitchell Street and stayed up there until a quarter to one, and 
I come on back home. I was feeling bad, and I layed down across the bed 
and stayed there until 6 o 'clock or 6:30 that night, and I walked up to my 
mother's at 92 Tattnall Street, and they gave me a lunch up there and I 
brought it on back home and I stayed there and eat it up and stayed at 
home until 10 minutes to 7 the next morning, and when I got to the 
corner of Forsyth and Mitchell Street, the W. & A. blowed for 7 o'clock, 
and then I went running on to the factory, and it was four or five minutes 
after 7 o'clock, the clock may have been a little fast, and when I got there 
I went upstairs to the dressing room and in comes Gordon Bailey, and 
here comes Joe Williams and then Mr. Wade Campbell, the lead in- 
spector, and he comes in there and says "Wasn't it bad about that girl 
being killed," and we asked him" which girl" and it seemed like he said 
"Mary Puckett," and we asked him whereabouts and he said "in the 



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basement," and we asked him if it was a white or colored girl," and he 
said "It was a white girl," and we told him "Yes it was," and we asked 
him how she got killed, and he said he didn't know, and then he come on 
out the door first and I come right behind him with the sprinkler in my 
hand, and then he went to the toilet and I went right behind him and got a 
sprinkler full of water and I stayed down the aisle until about 9 o'clock, 
and I went and got my raw stuff on the third floor and brought it up to the 
fourth floor and unloaded it, and then I said I would go to the basement 
and see who that was that got killed, and when I got there there was such 
a crowd of white people there I couldn't go back there, and then the fire- 
man sent me to get a nickle 's worth of onions and a loaf of bread, and 
then here comes Gordon and he give me a nickle and the fireman give me 
a nickle and told me to get them a dime's worth of beer and I got it and we 
all drank it. I went back upstairs and stayed up there until about 15 
minutes to 10, and the whistle blowed for the factory to shut down, and I 
heard Mr. Joe Stelker say the factory was going to close and to come 
back tomorrow, and I went and changed shoes and pulled of the pants and 
put on my hat and come down at 10 minutes to 10, and didn't go back 
any more until Tuesday morning, and went to work at Tuesday morning 
and got through with my work and went down stairs about half past 9 
and there was such a crowd down there I didn't stay long, and I come 
back up the aisle and went taking up some trash and about half past 10 
or 1 1 o'clock, Mr. Frank come back up the aisle and leaned over to me 
and said "Jim be a good boy" and I said "Yes, sir, I am, Mr. Frank," 
and when I heard from Mr. Frank again he was arrested. 
I come to work Wednesday morning and started down to the base- 

[288] 

ment and there was such a crowd down there I couldn't get to use the 
toilet, and I goes back upstairs and finished my work and works all that 
day, and Thursday morning I come to work and got caught up by 10 
o'clock, and I went downstairs and the fireman and another colored 
fellow was down there and I asked the fireman where it was that they say 
the young lady got killed at, and he told me right around there, and I took 
a little piece of paper and went around there to see if I could see, but I 
couldn't see where anybody had been laying at, and I come on back and 
found he was throwing some stuff into the furnace, and I went on upstairs 
and stayed there until 25 minutes to 12, and the detectives were giving us 
all subpoenaes and got my subpoena and went back upstairs and stayed 
up there until 5 minutes to 12, and I come down and went out in the 
streets and heard the whistle when it blowed for 12 o'clock, and I went 
back and started to cleaning up at half past twelve, and got through 
cleaning at half past one. Then I went down to wash my shirt so I could 
have a clean one to wear to court, for I had been wearing this one for 
three weeks and when I got back there and pulled off my shirt and washed 
it, then there comes Mr. Quinn and I asked him where was the dry house 
and he showed me where it was, and he told me, he said" Jim, there ain't 
no steam in there now," and I said to myself I will have to hang this on 
steam pipe to get it dry, and by me hanging it on there I got a little rust 



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on it, and some of them saw me back there washing my shirt and called up 

the detectives and when the detectives come up there I had done put on 

my shirt and they asked me where was the shirt I was washing and I told 

them this here was the shirt, and they said yes, because it was not good 

dry, and then told me to come and go with them, and I did. They brought 

me down here and found there was no blood on the shirt, and give me my 

shirt back, and that's all I know. 

(Signed) JAMES CONLEY. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me this the 28th day of May, 1913. 

G. C. FEBRUARY, 

Notary Public, Fulton County, Georgia. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 39. 

Conley's Statement of May 29, 1913. 

Atlanta, Ga., May 29, 1913. 

On Saturday, April 26, 1913, when I come back to the pencil factory 

with Mr. Frank I waited for him downstairs like he told me, and when he 

whistled for me I went upstairs and he asked me if I wanted to make 

some money right quick and I told him "Yes, sir," and he told me that he 

had picked up a girl back there and had let her fall and that her head hit 

against something, he didn't know what it was, and for me to move her, 

and I hollered and told him the girl was dead, and he told me to pick her 

up and bring her to the elevator and I told him I didn't have nothing to 

pick her up with and he told me to go and look by the cotton box there and 

[289] 

get a piece of cloth, and I got a big wide piece of cloth and come back 
there to the men's toilet where she was, and I tied her up, and I taken her 
and brought her up there to a little dressing room, carrying her on my 
right shoulder, and she got too heavy for me and she slipped off my 
shoulder and fell on the floor right there at the dressing room and I 
hollered for Mr. Frank to come there and help me, that she was too heavy 
for me, and Mr. Frank come down there and told me to pick her up, damn 
fool, and he run down there to me and he was excited, and he picked her 
up by the feet, her head and feet were sticking out of the cloth and then 
we brought her on to the elevator, Mr. Frank carrying her by the feet 
and me by the shoulders, and we brought her to the elevator and then Mr. 
Frank says, "Wait, let me get the key," and he went into the office and 
got the key and come back and unlocked the elevator door and started the 
elevator down. Mr. Frank turned it on himself and we went on down to 
the basement and Mr. Frank helped me take it off the elevator and he told 
me to take it back there to the sawdust pile, and I picked it up and put it 
on my shoulder again, and Mr. Frank, he went up the ladder and watched 
the trap door to see if anybody was coming, and I taken her back there 
and taken the cloth from around her and taken her hat and shoe which I 
had picked up upstairs right where her body was lying, and brought 
them down and untied the cloth and brought them back and throwed them 
on the trashpile in front of the furnace, and Mr. Frank was standing at 
the trap door at the head of the ladder. He didn't tell me where to put 
the things. I layed her body down with her head towards the elevator, 



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lying on her stomach and the left side of her face was on the ground and 
the right side of her face was up, and both arms were laying down 
with her body, by the side of her body. Mr. Frank joined me back on the 
first floor. I stepped on the elevator and he stepped on the elevator when 
it got to where he was, and he said "Gee, that was a tiresome job," and 
I told him his job was not as tiresome as mine was, because I had to tote it 
all the way from where she was laying to the dressing room, and in the 
basement from the elevator to where I left her. Then Mr. Frank hops 
off the elevator before it gets even with the second floor and he makes a 
stumble and he hits the floor and catches with both hands, and he went on 
around to the sink to wash his hands, and I went and cut off the motor, 
and I stood and waited for Mr. Frank to come from around there washing 
his hands, and then we went on into the office, and Mr. Frank he couldn't 
hardly keep still, he was all the time moving about from one office to the 
other, then he come back into the stenographer's office and come back 
and he told me" Here comes Emma Clark and Corinthia Hall," I under- 
stood him to say, and he come back and told me to come here and he 
opened the wardrobe and told me to get in there, and I was so slow 
about going he told me to hurry up, damn it, and Mr. Frank, whoever 
that was come in the office, they didn't stay so very long, till Mr. Frank 
was gone about 7 or 8 minutes, and I was still in the wardrobe and he 
never had come to let me out, and Mr. Frank come back and I said, 
" I Goodness alive, you kept me in there a mighty long time," and he said, 

[290] 

"Yes, I see I did, you are sweating," and then me and Mr. Frank set 
down in a chair. Mr. Frank then took out a cigarette and he gave me the 
box and asked me did I want to smoke and I told him yes, sir, and I 
taken the box and taken out a cigarette and he handed me a box of 
matches and I handed him the matches back, and I handed him the 
cigarette box and he told me that was all right, I could keep that, and I 
told him he had some money in it and he told me that was all right, I could 
keep that, and Mr. Frank then asked me to write a few lines on that 
paper, a white scratch pad he had there, and he told me what to put on 
there, and I asked him what he was going to do with it and he told me to 
just go ahead and write, and then after I got through writing Mr. Frank 
looked at it and said it was all right, and Mr. Frank looked up at the top 
of the house and said, "Why should I hang, I have wealthy people in 
Brooklyn," and I asked him what about me, and he told me that was 
all right about me, for me to keep my mouth shut and he would make 
everything all right, and then I asked him where was the money he said 
he was going to give me and Mr. Frank said, Here, here is two hundred 
dollars," and he handed me a big roll of greenback money and I didn't 
count it; I stood there a little while looking at it in my hand, and I told 
Mr. Frank not to take another dollar for that watch man I owed and he 
said he wouldn't-and the rest is just like I have told it before. 
The reason I have not told this before is I thought Mr. Frank would 
get out and help me out, but it seems that he is not going to get out and I 
have decided to tell the whole truth about this matter. 



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While I was looking at the money in my hands, Mr. Frank said: "Let 
me have that and I will make it all right with you Monday if I live and 
nothing happens," and he took the money back and I asked him if that 
was the way he done and he said he would give it back Monday. 
(Signed) JAMES CONLEY. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 29th day of May, 1913. 
(Signed) G.C.FEBRUARY, 
Notary Public, Fulton County, Ga. 

[291] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 40. 

Cash book of the National Pencil Company, page 197 of which con- 
tains the following entries, in Frank's handwriting: 
Page 196 
Cash. 
1913 

To balance 
4/22 To check 
4/24 
Dr. 
39.85 
15.00 
15.00 
69.85 
191 
By 
'S 
it 
'S 
i' 
it 
5' 
'S 
4' 
3 

Cash. 
Page 197 
kerosene 
type 
dray 
cases 
express 
postage 
parcel post 
2 wks rent typewriter 
supplies, Scheegas 
King Hdw. Co. 
tinsmith 
thread 



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carfare 

Herbert Wright 

Omitted from payroll 

Balance to fund 

Cr. 

.15 

.75 

6.70 

10.50 

1.10 

1.00 

.16 

2.00 

.45 

.85 

11.50 

.05 

.10 

4.00 

39.31 

30.54 

69.85 

[292] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 41. 

Cash book items made out by Frank to balance cash book. 

Kerosene .15 .15 

Type .75 .75 

Dray 2.00 

1.70 

1.00 

2.00 

6.70 6.70 

Cases 2.50 

1.25 

3.50 

1.75 

1.50 

10.50 10.50 

Express .35 & .75 1.10 

Postage .50 & .50 1.00 

Parcel post .03 & .13 .16 

Rent typewriter, 2 wks 2.00 

Supplies .45-Sch. .45 

King Hdw. Co. .85 .85 

Tinsmith 11.50 11.50 

Thread .05 .05 

Carfare .10 .10 

Herbert Wright 4.00 4.00 



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39.31 

39.85 

30.00 

69.85 

30.31 

30.54 

Cash box $4.34 short 

OK. F. 3/26/13 

[293] 

294 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 42. 

Letter written by Leo M. Frank to Mr. Moses Frank. The letter 

was not typewritten but was in long hand and folded to a size to fit 

ordinary size envelope, and was as follows: 

Atlanta, Ga., April 26, 1913. 

Dear Uncle: 

I trust that this finds you and dear Tante well after arriving safely 

in New York. I hope that you found all the dear ones well in Brooklyn 

and I await a letter from you telling me how you find things there. 

Lucile and I are well. 

It is too short a time since you left for anything startling to have 

developed down here. The opera has Atlanta in its grip, but that ends 

today. I've heard a rumor that opera will not be given again in a hurry 

here. 

To-day was "Yondef" here, and the thin gray line of veterans, 

smaller each year, braved the rather chilly weather to do honor to their 

fallen comrads. 

Enclosed you will find last week's report. The shipments still keep 

up well, tho' the result is not what one would wish. There is nothing new 

in the factory, etc., to report. Enclosed please find the price list you 

desired. 

The next letter from me, you should get on board ship. After that I 

will write to the address you gave me in Frankfurt. 

With much love to you both, in which Lucile joins me, I am 

Your affectionate nephew, 

(Signed) LEO M. FRANK. 

[294] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 43. 

Weekly report forwarded to Moses Frank by Leo M. Frank, enclosed 

in Leo M. Frank's letter to Moses Frank, as set forth in exhibit "42," 

said report being in Frank's handwriting, same being folded to same 

size as envelope set forth as Exhibit 44. 

FINANCIAL. 

Week ending April 24, 1913. 

Production: Net 27 19 1/2 

Good 700 Gr. 

Medium 629/, Gr. 



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Cheap 599 Gr. 

Jobs 791 Gr. 

29% 

Net Value Prod'n $3066.31 

Total Expenditures 3175.75 

Result-Deficit 109.44 

Shipments 

$5438.78 

4374 gr. 

Orders received 

$3320.31 Value 

1904 Gross 

O. K. F. 

[295] 

a) 

t-4 



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't) 

a) C 

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40 

4) 

CO 



c~0 

rb 

Hcl 400-1 

•) 

0~ 



[296] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 45. 

Weekly report sent by Leo M. Frank to Oscar Pappenheimer and re- 
ceived by the latter on April 28, 1913, said report being in the hand- 
writing of Frank. 
FINANCIAL 

Week ending April 24, 1913. 
Production: Net 27 191 Gr. 
Good 700 Gr. 
Medium 6291/ Gr. 
Cheap 599 Gr. 
Jobs 791 Gr. 
29% 



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Net Value Prod'n $3066.31 

Total Expenditures 3175.75 

Result-Deficit 109.44 

Shipments 

$5438.78 

4374 gr. 

Orders received 

$3320.31 Value 

1904 Gross 

O. K. F. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 46. 

Weekly financial reports of the business of the National Pencil 

Company sent by Leo M. Frank to Oscar Pappenheimer for each week 

beginning January 18, 1912, and ending with the week ending April 24, 

1913, each of said reports being identical in form with the defendant's 

Exhibit "45" and being in the handwriting of Leo M. Frank. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 47. 

Pay envelope found by detective McWorth. It is an ordinary pay 

envelope used by the Pencil Company with the number " 1 86" written 

thereon, with the first initials of a name on it, an" M" and a "P." 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 48. 

Club found by detective McWorth at the factory. The club is round, 

about three feet long and three inches in diameter, weighs approximately 

three pounds and has several red blotches thereon. 

[297] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 49. 

Brown suit of clothes worn by Leo M. Frank on April 26, 1913. 

Consists of coat, pants, and vest. Suit does not appear to be new, but is 

clean and unspotted. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 50. 

Bank book showing account of Leo M. Frank with Atlanta National 

Bank. Shows balance on April 1, 1913, of $111.13, and a deposite of $15 

on April 18. It further shows that the sum of $109.85 had been drawn out 

on checks (Defendant's Exhibit 51), leaving a balance to the credit of 

depositor of $16.28. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 51. 

Twelve canceled checks drawn on the Atlanta National Bank, signed 

by Leo M. Frank as follows: 

No. Date 

450-4/1/13 

451-4/1/13 

452-4/1/13 

453-A-4/9/13 

453-B-4/9/13 

454-4/6/13 

455-4/21/13 

456-4/2/13 

457-4/2/13 



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458-4/9/13 

459-4/15/13 

460-4/24/13 

Amount Payee Endorsements 

$20.0 Mr. L.M. Fank Mrs. L. M. Frank 

$20.00 Mrs. L. M. Frank Chamberlain-Johnson-DuBose Co. 

1.50 Westview Floral Co Westview Floral Co. 

12.34 Haas & Co. Haas & Co. 

Rivers Realty Co. 

32.50 Rivers Realty Co. American Natl. Bank 

8.00 Mrs. E. Selig 

Mrs. E. Selig 

S. S. Echols Co. 

Travelers Bank & Tr. Co. 

4.75 S. Af. Truitt & Son S. M. Truitt & Son 

7.50 Alex Dittler, Sec'y 

6.26 

2.00 

Alex Dittler, Sec. Dittler Bros. 

Fourth Natl. Bank 

Guthman Ldry Co. Guthman Ldry. & D. CI. Co. 

Maier & Berkele 

5.00 Self 

5.00 

5.00 

Self 

Maier & Berkele 

Leo M. Frank 

Leo M. Frank 

Self Leo M.Frank 

[298] 

299 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 52. 

First floor plan of the Selig residence. 

[299] 

300 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 53. 

Plat of Washington Street and Georgia Avenue, showing the relative 

positions with respect to each other of the Selig residence at 68 E. 

Georgia Avenue and the Wolf sheimer residence at 387 Washington 

Street. 

[300] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 61. 

Plat of the Basement of the National Pencil (aonpany Factory. 

BASEMENT 

NATIONAL PENCILCO 



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Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xi] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xii] 1913 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 61 -Continued. 

Plat of th 'irst Floot of the National Penil aompan Factory 

STORE ROOM 

NATIONAL PENCILCO 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xiii] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xiv] 1913 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 61 -Continued. 

Plat af h Se, nd Flor of the, National P-6 Cor pany Faetory. 

SECOND FLOOR 

NATIONAL PENCILCO. ~ -,* ,fl Crar /nn nancr 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xv] 1913 

Term, 1913. Brief of the Evidence [xvi] 1913 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 62. 

Picture of the Selig home taken from the outside of the back door of 

the kitchen. It shows the entire kitchen and also the door leading into the 

dining room. It shows nothing else in the dining room. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 63. 

Picture of Selig home taken standing directly inside the back 

door of kitchen. Shows practically same view as last picture but shows 

no view at all of the dining room. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 64. 

Picture of the safe with open door standing in outer office of the 

National Pencil Company. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 65. 

Picture of the outer office of the National Pencil Company factory, 

showing the safe with door wide open. Picture shows safe door shutting 

off any view into the inner office and shows no view of anything in the 

inner office. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 66. 

Picture taken on the outside of the outer office looking toward the 

inner office with the safe door open. It shows no view at all into the inner 

office. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 67. 

Picture showing the pay window in the office of the National Pencil 

Company factory. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 68. 

Picture showing foot of elevator shaft in the basement of the 

National Pencil Company factory. Shows rubbish and trash in elevator 

shaft and barrels adjacent thereto. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 69. 

Picture of basement of National Pencil Co. factory, looking from the 



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elevator shaft to the back door. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 70. 

Picture of the corner in the basement where body was found, around 

the left corner behind the partition shown on the picture. 

[301] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 71. 

Picture showing passage way leading to the back door in the base- 
ment of the factory. Picture shows boxes piled up on each side of the 
passage way to the height of the ceiling. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 72. 

Picture showing entrance to the factory from the street. Shows the 
partition on the right immediately entering the factory, behind which is 
the elevator. The steps leading to the second floor of the factory are 
shown in the background. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 73. 

Picture showing elevator shaft and trap door on the ground floor of 
the factory. Shows steps leading to the second floor on the left of the 
picture. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 74. 

Picture of metal room, showing place where Conley claims to have 
found body. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 75. 
Picture showing place where cotton sacks were kept. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 76. 
Picture of the plating room. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 77. 

Picture of the metal room, showing where the floor was chipped up 
by the detectives in front of dressing room. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 78. 

Picture showing lathe where Barrett claims to have found hair. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 79. 

Picture showing view from third floor looking down steps to second 
floor. Picture shows man walking on second floor from the metal room 
toward the elevator. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 80. 
Picture showing elevator box on the office floor. 

[302] 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 81. 

Picture showing elevator wheel at the top of the fourth floor. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS 82, 83, 84. 

Pictures showing view of the metal room on the second floor. 

Pictures show doors of the metal room to be partly made of transparent 

glass. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 85 AND 86. 

Pictures of the metal room closet with the door open and closed. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 87. 

Blue print from which the model of the factory (Defendant's Ex- 



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hibit 13) was made. 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 88a, b, c, d, e. 
Five jars containing contents of stomach taken from different 
parties who had eaten cabbage and bread. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 89. 

Extract from the minutes of Walton superior court showing three 
indictments for larceny from the house against C. B. Dalton, at the April 
Term, 1 894, of said court. Pleas of guilty in each indictment and a fine of 
$50 and twelve months in the chain gang sentence in each case. Also 
indictment of C. B. Dalton, at the February term, 1899, of Walton 
superior court for stealing bale of cotton. Plea of not guilty, and verdict 
of jury finding defendant guilty, recommending punishment as for mis- 
demeanor. Fine of $20.00 and six months in chain gang. 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 90. 

Testimony of Newt Lee before the coroner's inquest as follows: 
"He (Mr. Gantt) says, 'I would like to have them (shoes) because I 
got to go to work Monday.' I says 'I can't let you in there unless Mr. 
Frank says so.' He says, 'Is Mr. Frank there?' I says, 'Yes, if you 
want me I will go up and ask him.' By that time Mr. Frank comes down 
and runs right into Mr. Gantt, standing in the front door and he looked 
like he was frightened. I saw Mr. Frank was frightened, but I taken it 
this way, he and Mr. Gantt had fell out and he discharged Mr. Gantt and 
I thought that he thought by him hanging around there that he was wait- 
ing for him and had come to do him some harm. Mr. Gantt said 'I got 
some old shoes up there and I would like to get them.' Mr. Frank looked 
at him and said, 'What sort were they,' and he said they were tans. I 
says, 'I think I sees a boy sweep them up in the trash.' He says 'I have 

[303] 
304 

some black ones up there, too. 'Well,' I says, 'I don't know anything 
about any black shoes.' Then Mr. Gantt says 'I can go up there and see 
if I can find them,' then he drops his head and looked right at me. Then 
Mr. Frank says, 'Newt, you carry him up there, go with him around and 
stay with him while he is up there,' and so we went in and went on up 
there and found the shoes like he says and then he asked me for some 
paper to wrap them up and I gave him some paper, and then I got him 
some twine. 

'I don't know when I ever seen him change that (time slip) before. 
He's put the tape in once before; it was one night. I never paid no atten- 
tion to how long it took him. It didn't take him five minutes. I couldn't 
tell whether it took him a minute or not. On Saturday night, it took 
him a pretty good little bit, because he spoke about it. He says, 'It's 
kind of hard to get in.' " 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 91. 

Harry Scott's testimony before coroner's inquest as follows: 
"He just told me that he had been down at the police barracks 
Monday morning and he talked to John Black, and 'John Black seemed 
to suspect me of the crime,' and he then repeated to me his movements on 



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the day of the murder, that is on Saturday he reported at the office, I 
believe he said, at around eight o'clock in the morning, stayed there up 
until ten o'clock, then he went to Montag Brothers; Mr. Darley accom- 
panied him down the street a little ways, and he continued on to Montag 
Bros, by himself and returned to the factory, I believe, at 10:30; that 
Arthur White and Harry Denham were employed on the 4th floor of the 
factory, working during the morning hours, and about 12:10 this little 
girl, Mary Phagan, came into the office to draw her salary which he gave 
her ($1.20). The denominations, which he thought, were two half dollars 
and two dimes, and that Mary Phagan, left his private office where he 
paid her off, and went into the bookkeeper's office, and when she got near 
the door, she returned to him, and said, 'Has the metal come yet?' And 
Mr. Frank replied, 'No. ' Then he stated that Mary Phagan went on out, 
and it was about 12:50 that he went upstairs to the 4th floor, where 
Denham and White were working and saw Mrs. White up there talking to 
her husband. He made the remark that he intended closing and locking 
the doors, and asked Mrs. White if she would leave, and also asked the 
men up there how near they were through their work. They told him 
they didn't think they could finish up right soon at that time, and he 
came on downstairs, and told them he was going to lock the doors when 
he went out. He stated that he left the factory about 1:10 p. m., went 
home to his dinner, returned to the factory then about 3 o'clock, and 
White and Denham were still on the 4th floor. He did not meet anyone 
going out or coming in. About 3:10 both White and Denhan left the 

[304] 

building; that Newt Lee reported to him about four o'clock, as he had 
instructed him to do on the day previous, that it was his intention to go 
to the ball game that afternoon, and when Newt Lee came there, he told 
him that it would not be necessary for him to work just at that particular 
hour, that he could go out on the street and enjoy himself for a few hours, 
and return about six o'clock. Frank stayed in the building from four to 
six and Newt Lee returned at 6 o'clock, went on duty and Frank left the 
building at about 6:15. On his way out he saw Newt Lee sitting on a 
packing box outside the door of the factory talking to a man by the name 
of Gantt. Lee told Frank what Gantt was staying there for, and after 
considering allowed Gantt to come upstairs for a pair of shoes, that is, go 
up inside of the factory, but he instructed Newt Lee to stay with Gantt 
while he was up inside of the factory, until he left, which he said that Lee 
did. Frank then continued on to his home, and said that he became 
worried about Gantt's presence in the building, knowing that he had dis- 
charged him for some kind of fault. He continued to worry about 
Gantt's presence in the building and therefore called up Newt Lee on the 
telephone at 7:30, as he knew it was that time for Lee to punch the clock at 
that hour, and he would hear the telephone ringing inside of the office 
while he was there at the clock; although I am not sure. I think he said 
he made an effort to get Lee at seven o'clock and failed and finally got 
him at 7:30. When he called Lee on the telephone, he inquired if Gantt 
had left the building. Lee replied, 'Yes ;' Frank then asked him if every- 



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thing else was all right, to which Lee replied, 'Yes,' and he hung up the 
receiver and at about 9 that night he retired to go to bed; and I believe 
now that that's the extent of my interview with Mr. Frank. 
'Yes, I am working in the interest of the National Pencil Co. to 
ferret out who is responsible for the murder. Mr. Black and I requested 
Mr. Frank that he go into this private room with Lee, and endeavor to 
get any information that he might be withholding from either of us or 
the detective department, and told Mr. Frank to impress upon Lee the 
importance of telling the whole truth in the matter, and do whatever he 
could to pursuade Lee to tell the absolute truth in the matter. Mr. Frank 
said he understood, and we sent him in to talk to Lee. I have no way of 
knowing what Frank said; they were both together privately in the room 
there, and we had no way of knowing except what Lee told us after- 
wards. " 

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 92. 

Harry Scott's report to the Pinkerton Agency, as follows: 
"Mr. Frank stated that on Saturday, April 26th, 1913, the factory 
of the National Pencil Company was closed down, and that only two of 
the employees reported for work the entire day, and these men were 
Harry Denham and J. A. White, who are employed on the 4th floor of the 
building. Mr. Frank stated that he was in the office up until about 1 p. m., 

[305] 

and that at 12:10 p. m., a girl employee of the factory, named Mary 
Phagan, called at the office of Mr. Frank for her wages, and she received 
$1.20, either in one dollar bill and two dimes, or two half dollars and two 
dimes. Mr. Frank personally handed this girl her wages, after which 
the Phagan girl left Mr. Frank's office and walked towards the door of the 
office adjoining Mr. Frank's office, which door leads into the factory. 
Miss Phagan turned to Mr. Frank and asked him if the metal had arrived 
yet, to which Mr. Frank replied 'No,' and the girl then went on away out 
of the factory, as far as Mr. Frank knows, as he did not see anything of 
her during the afternoon. About 12 o'clock, noon, Mrs. J. A. White 
entered the factory and went to the top floor where her husband, J. A. 
White was working, and at 12:45 p. m., Mr. Frank went to the 4th floor 
and in the presence of Mrs. White told Denham and White that he was 
going to lock the doors, and Mrs. White then left the factory, but White 
and Denham informed Mr. Frank that they had not finished their work 
and Mr. Frank then told them to remain until they had gotten through. 
Mr. Frank left the factory about 1 p. m. Saturday, while White and 
Denham were still on the top floor. Mr. Frank then went to his home, to 
his dinner, returning to the factory at 3 p. m., and he saw that White and 
Denham were about through with their work, and both of them left the 
factory at about 3:09 p. m. As far as Mr. Frank knows he was the only 
person left in the factory after that hour. On Friday, Mr. Frank had 
instructed his negro night watchman, Newt Lee, to report at the factory 
on Saturday at 4:00 p. m. on account of it being a holiday, and none of the 
employees working. At 4 p. m. the negro Newt Lee arrived at the 
factory reporting for work to Mr. Frank, who told him that it was 



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not necessary for him to go to work at that time, but that he could go 
out in the street and have a good time until about 6 p. m., and that in the 
meantime Mr. Frank would stay at the factory. The negro left the fac- 
tory, returning again at 6 p. m., and at 6:05 p. m. Mr. Frank left the fac- 
tory for his home and on his way out of the factory by the Forsyth Street 
door he saw the negro night watchman, Newt Lee, talking to a book- 
keeper named John M. Gantt, who had recently been discharged by Mr. 
Frank. It developed that Gantt was asking the negro watchman, Newt 
Lee, to allow him to go to the second floor of the factory and secure a 
pair of shoes that he had left there, as he wanted to go to his home in 
Marietta, Georgia, and do some plowing and the negro, Newt Lee, then 
asked Mr. Frank if he would allow Gantt to enter the building. Mr. 
Frank knowing that he had discharged Gantt for thievery, hesitated 
about allowing Gantt to enter the building, but finally told the nightman 
to let Gantt in, but to stay with him until he secured the shoes, and then 
see that Gantt left the building without taking anything that belonged 
to him. About 7:30 p. m. Mr. Frank states he called up the factory, as he 
knew that Newt Lee, the night watchman, was about to punch the clock 
at the hour and could hear the telephone bell ringing inside the office, and 
Newt Lee answered the telephone. Mr. Frhnk states that he inquired of 
Lee if Gantt had left the building, to which he replied in the affirmative. 

[306] 

Mr. Frank then asked Lee if everything else was all right, to which Lee 
replied 'Yes.' Mr. Frank states that this was the extent of his telephone 
conversation with Lee." 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 93. 

Testimony of Policeman Anderson before Coroner's inquest, as fol- 
lows: 

"The watchman told me where he was standing. He came out of the 
closet to fasten or button up his pants, and had his lantern sitting down 
right in front of him, where he had left it when he went into the closet. 
While he was standing up there he saw that woman. He saw it from the 
closet, about twenty-five feet, to where the object was. I could not see that 
far with the lantern that he had. With the lantern that he had I could see 
about ten or twelve feet, something like that." 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 94. 

Court proceedings under which Jim Conley was released from 
Fulton County jail upon petition of Solicitor Hugh M. Dorsey: 
The State, 
VS. 

Leo M. Frank. 
No. 

In Futton Superior Court, May Term, 1913. 
Indictment for Murder. 

The petition of Hugh M. Dorsey, Solicitor General of the Atlanta 
Circuit, including Fulton County, respectfully shows: 
1. 
James Connelly is a material witness for the State in the above 



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stated case. 
2. 

Petitioner is apprehensive that said Connelly may not be forthcom- 
ing as a witness at the trial of the above named defendant, unless 
detained in custody. 
3. 

Said Connelly has been detained since May 1st, 1913, by the police 
authorities of the City of Atlanta, and is now in the custody of said 
officers, being detained by them as a witness. Since said Connelly was 
taken into custody by said officers, Leo M. Frank has been indicted 
upon a charge of murder. 

[307] 

4. 

Petitioner represents that the testimony of said Connelly may be, 

and likely will be very material in said cause. 

Wherefore, petitioner prays that said James Connelly be committed 

to the jail of Fulton County, Georgia, there to be detained as a witness 

until said case above stated shall be terminated, or until said Connelly 

shall be otherwise released by proper order of Court. 

This May 29, 1913. 

(Signed) Hugh M. Dorsey, 

Sol. Gen. Atlanta Circuit. 

Georgia, Fulton County. 

Comes now Hugh M. Dorsey, who being duly sworn deposes and 

says the allegations in the above petition are true so far as they come 

within his knowledge, and so far as derived from the information of 

others he believes them to be true. 

(Signed) Hugh M. Dorsey. 

Attested, May 29, 1913. " 

John H. Jones, (Signed) 

N. P. Fulton Co., Ga. 

The above and foregoing petition read and considered. 

Let the said James Connelly be taken into custody by the Sheriff of 

said County of Fulton, and be confined in the common jail of said County, 

until discharged by further order of this court. 

Let the said Connelly be served with a copy of this order and the 

petition on which it is based. Bond for the release of said Connelly may 

be assessed in a reasonable sum upon proper application to the Court 

and after reasonable notice in writing to the Solicitor General of the 

Circuit. It appearing to me that he does not object to this order, but 

consents to same. 

This May 29, 1913. 

(Signed) L. S. Roan, 

Judge S. C. Stone Mountain Circuit. 

Presiding. 

The State, 

VS. 

Leo M. Frank. 



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No. 9410 

Indictment in Fulton Superior Court. 

Murder. May Term, 1913. 

It appearing to the Court that James Connelly has heretofore been 

committed to the common jail of Fulton County to be held as a witness in 

[308] 

the above stated case, and to be released only on a proper order of Court; 
And it further appearing that the ends of justice require that said 
James Connelly be released temporarily to the Chief of Police of the 
City of Atlanta; 

It is therefore ordered that Sheriff C. W. Mangum, of Fulton 
County Georgia, deliver the said James Connelly to said Chief of Police, 
James L. Beavers, or his lawful deputy, to be received back into custody 
at said jail when delivered back by said Chief of Police, the attorney for 
James Connelly consenting and not objecting to this order, and being 
present. 

This May 31, 1913. 
(Signed), L. S. Roan, 
Judge S. C. Stone Mountain Circuit, 
Presiding. 

This is consented to by me 
(Signed) William M. Smith 
Attorney for James Connelly. 
Georgia, Fulton County. 

To Hon. L. S. Roan, Judge of the Stone Mountain Circuit, 
Presiding in the Superior Court, Criminal Division: - 
The petition of Hugh M. Dorsey, Solicitor General of the 
Atlanta Circuit, respectfully shows :- 
1. 

On May 29, 1913, this court, on petition of the above named Solicitor 
General,-representing that James Connelly was a material witness for 
the State in the case of THE STATE vs. LEO M. FRANK, under indict- 
ment for murder, and that said James Connelly would probably not be 
forthcoming to respond to a subpoena in said case, -ordered said James 
Connelly held until further order of court as a witness in the above 
stated case, and to be confined in the county jail and subsequently upon 
petitioner's request made at the instance of said Connelly and his attor- 
ney, said Connelly was allowed held by the police authorities of the City 
of Atlanta. 
2. 

Petitioner is satisfied that the necessity for holding said James 
Connelly under the orders heretofore granted on the aforesaid petition 
as a witness in said case no longer exist. 
3. 
Wherefore, petitioner prays that the orders heretofore granted ia 

[309] 

said cause be revoked, and that said James Connelly be discharged from 



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custody under said orders. 
(Signed) Hugh M. Dorsey, 
Sol. Gen. Atlanta Circuit. 
Georgia, Fulton County. 

Read and considered, it is ordered that this petition and order be 
filed and duly served upon other claimed suspects in connection with the 
Phagan murder, and confined in common jail of said County, to wit, Leo 
M. Frank and Newt Lee, both either personally or by serving their 
attorneys, and any other citizen of said County who may receive this 
notice by publication or otherwise, may show cause before me, Friday 
the 13th day of June, at 10 o'clock A. M., at my chambers in Thrower 
Building, Atlanta, Ga. Notice to be served by the sheriff or one of his 
deputies by leaving copy of this petition and order, at once. 
June 11, 1913. (Signed) L. S. Roan. 

Service acknowledged and further service waived. The confinement 
of said James Connelly in the Police station was at my request and at 
the request of my client James Connelly and I agree for said Connelly to 
iemain in custody of the police authorities until the trial of Leo M. 
Frank or until the indictment of said Connelly. I agree to his confine- 
ment because he is a material witness for the State and I desire his 
confinement at the police station, because of repeated attempts on part of 
visitors at the jail to torture and intimidate said James Connelly and to 
safeguard said James Connelly from perjured admissions, supposed to 
have been made by him, I waive his presence at the time of this trial. 
This June 11, 1913. (Signed) Win. M. Smith, 
Attorney for James Connelly. 
Georgia, Fulton County. 

Comes Newt Lee, by his attorney, Bernard L. Chappell, and in pur- 
suance of an order made by L. S. Roan, Judge of the Superior Court, 
Criminal Division of said County, on the 1 1th day of June, 1913, hereby 
acknowledges service of said order as referred to the said Newt Lee, who 
is being held in the Fulton County common jail upon the order of Paul 
Donehoo, coroner of said county as a suspect in the Mary Phagan 
murder case. 
June 12, 1913. 
(Signed) 

Bernard L. Chappell, 
Attorney for Newt Lee. 
Georgia, Fulton County. 

I have this day served L. Z. Rosser, Atty. for Leo M. Frank, person- 
ally with a copy of the within order. 
This June 12, 1913. 
(Signed) 
T. A. Burdett, 
Deputy Sheriff. 

[310] 

Georgia, Fulton County. 

State of Georgia, No. Fulton Superior Court. 



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vs. Criminal Division, Indictment for Murder. 

Leo M. Frank. 

And now comes James Conley, and in answer to the rule nisi issued 

in the above case, shows to the court as follows: 

1 . Respondent admits that he is now held in custody under orders 
of this Court, at the police prison of the City of Atlanta, having been 
originally held in the prison of Fulton County, also under order of this 
Court, the cause of said commitment by this Court of respondent, being 
the allegation that Respondent is a material witness in the above case, 
in behalf of the State, and it is desired to insure the presence of Respon- 
dent at the trial of the above case. 

2. Respondent admits that he is now at the City police prison at 

his own request and instance, and through the advice and counsel of his 
attorney. 

3. Respondent shows to the court that the City police prison is so 
arranged and so officered, that Respondent is absolutely safe as to his 
physical welfare from any attack that might be made upon him; that he 
is so confined that his cell is a solitary one, there being no one else even 
located in the cell block with him; that the key to this cell block and the 
cell of Respondent is always in the possession of a sworn uniformed 
officer of the law; that under the instructions of Chief of Police Beavers, 
said sworn officers are not allowed to permit any one to approach this 
Respondent or come into his cell block, except the attorney of Respon- 
dent and such persons as this Respondent may agree to see and talk 
with; that Respondent so confined is protected from any physical harm 
and is protected from the possibility of legal harm by others who might 
seek to damage Respondent by false claims as to statements alleged to be 
made by Respondent; 

4. Respondent nor his counsel have made no request for the release 
of Respondent or his transfer to any other place of confinement. 

5. Respondent is willing to remain indefinitely as a prisoner in 
solitary confinement, under any reasonable rules this court may direct, 
subject to any further order or direction of this Court. 

6. Respondent admits that he is a material witness in behalf of the 
State of Georgia in this case, and admits that in the exercise of sound 
discretion it is proper that Respondent be held until the final trial of this 
or any other case growing out of the unfortunate death of Miss Mary 
Phagan, but this Respondent denies that in the exercise of sound judicial 

[311] 

discretion, it is necessary for this Court to order Respondent held at any 

particular prison. 

7. Respondent denies that this Court has legal right in the exercise 
of sound judicial discretion to order this Respondent held as a witness 
in behalf of the State, when it is shown to this Court, as it is shown 
beyond peradventure of a doubt, that there is no possibility for this 
Respondent not to be present and subject to call as a witness in behalf of 
the State, since he is held in complete and perfect imprisonment, and 
there being no possible theory that the ends of justice will be thwarted, 



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and all these facts being without the slightest possible question, there 
is no reason for any order of this Court, committing Respondent. 

8. Respondent is advised and believes that the Counsel for the 
Defendant in this case has been within the last few days studying the 
law very thoroughly bearing on the question of holding of this Respon- 
dent as a material witness in behalf of the State, at any other place than 
the County Prison, and also immediately finds move on foot to have 
Respondent returned to the County prison, and this Respondent is 
advised by his Counsel that it is the belief of his Counsel that the idea 
of transfer back to the County Prison has under it, plans laid by persons 
unfriendly to the interests of this Respondent and friendly to the 
interests of the Defendant in this case. 

9. Respondent denies that the law vests in this Court, the right of 
committal as a witness in behalf of either side, under the facts and cir- 
cumstances of this or any other case. 

10. Respondent shows that the conditions at the County Jail are 
such that the interests of justice as far as this Respondent is concerned 
can not be well safeguarded and the interest of Respondent and the 
interest of justice are greatly threatened by the return of this Res- 
pondent to the County Jail. 

1 1 . Respondent shows that through no fault of the County Sheriff, 

a sufficient inside force of guards has not been provided by the County 
authorities, only one man being paid by the County to guard twenty cell 
blocks distributed in twenty wings and over five floors; that it is a 
physical impossibility for this one man to keep up or even know what is 
transpiring on five different floors or twenty separate immense wall and 
steel blocks, distributed through a large building; that with this inad- 
quate force, which this respondent is advised the Sheriff of this County 
has complained about, it is an absolute impossibility for the best sheriff 
in the world or the best trained deputies to know exactly what is going on 
at any and all times or any reasonable part of the time; that the keys 
to practically all of the cell blocks are carried by "convicted criminals," 
known as" trusties," who turn in and out parties entering or leaving cell 

[312] 

blocks, and while they have general instructions covering their duties, it 
is an impossibility for the inside deputy to know whether each is dis- 
charging his duty properly at all times; that the food is prepared and 
distributed in the County prison itself and practically by "convicted 
criminals" whose disregard for law and principle is written upon 
the criminal records of this State; that owing to this condition men have 
been known to saw through solid steel bars and cages and escape to 
freedom; that it would be easy for anyone to reach or harm Respon- 
dent or to poison him through his food; that the "trusty turnkeys" who 
are convicts can easily swear as to admissions against the interest of this 
Respondent, even though such admissions might not be made; that the 
friends of the defendant in this case are allowed to pour constantly into 
the jail at all hours of the day and up to a late hour of the night, and are 
in close touch with many of these "trusty turnkeys," and "trusty 



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attaches" of the jail; that while a prisoner at the County Prison before 
his transfer to the City Prison, a goodly number of people were admitted 
to the cell block to talk with Respondent, whose presence was not 
requested or desired; that among these visitors was one whom the Res- 
pondent has every reason to believe was working in the interest of the 
Defendant; that this party presented Respondent with sandwiches 
which this Respondent did not eat, that this same party also offered to 
present Respondent with whiskey; that Respondent was threatened 
with physical harm while in the County prison to the extent of the possi- 
bility of taking his life; that he was denounced as a liar, relative to his 
testimony in this case; and this Respondent is sure without the knowledge 
or through the neglect of the Sheriff or any of his men, but directly 
attributable to the construction physically of the county prison and the 
inadequate force allowed the Sheriff to oversee and care for it; that 
Respondent is advised and believes that one of the parties friendly to the 
Defendant is already priming himself to swear that Respondent made 
certain admissions while he was in the County prison, which this Res- 
pondent did not make, and which testimony will be false, but will be 
given, if given to help the defendant and damage this Respondent. 

12. That this Respondent was imprisoned while in the County 
Prison directly over the cell block in which said Defendant is detained 
and was lodged among the most desperate criminals, one even being 
under sentence of death, and willing no doubt to swear or do anything 
necessary to help or prolong his life, that these desperate criminals, with 
whom this Respondent was lodged, had this Respondent completely at 
their mercy and could swear that he admitted things most damaging and 
which would be false and untrue and known by them to be false and 
untrue. 

13. That Respondent is advised and believes that the Sheriff of 

this County has publicly proclaimed that the Defendant looks him in the 
eye like an innocent man; that the Sheriff has given said Defendant an 

[313] 

entire cell block and has isolated him completely except from his friends; 
that the. Sheriff has expressed himself as not desiring that nigger 
returned to the County Prison, meaning Respondent; that the Sheriff 
appears to feel that the requests made by Respondent are meant as a 
reflection upon the Sheriff, but same was not so intended to be construed, 
nor was same so represented to the Court at the time of the transfer, nor 
was any such allegation made before the Court, at the time of the passage 
of the second order transferring Respondent back to the City Prison, nor 
does Respondent believe that same was in mind of the Court at the time 
of the passage of the order or influenced the Court; but that the inade- 
quate force allowed the Sheriff and the construction of the Jail rendered 
this request by Respondent necessary, and same was made to this Court, 
with no statement of facts, other than it was requested by Respondent 
and in the judgment of the representatives of the State there was 
necessity for the same. 
Wherefore this Respondent agrees, to the passage of an order 



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revoking former orders in this case, and waives his presence at the 
Court, upon a hearing of same. 
(Signed) Wm. M. Smith, 
Attorney for James Conley. 
Georgia, Fulton County. 

Personally appeared before me, the undersigned attesting officer, 
James Conley, who after being duly sworn desposes and swears that the 
facts set out in the above and foregoing response so far as they come 
within his own knowledge are true and where derived from the informa- 
tion of others he believes them to be true. 
(Signed) James Conley. 
Sworn to and subscribed before me 
this June 13, 1913. 
C. C. Tedder, 

Notary Public, Fulton County, Ga. 
IN RE: 

Application of Hugh M. Dorsey, Solicitor-General to release 
James Conley from Legal Custody. 

In answer to the petition and order in the above stated cause, served 
upon us, as attorneys for Leo Frank, we herewith answer and show 
cause as follows: 

1 . If the intention of the Solicitor General is to discharge this 
negro from custody because (a) he is in fact not a material witness 
against Frank or (b) although he is a material witness, his integrity and 
character are such that he ought to have his liberty and be trusted to 
obey the subpoena of this court, then, considered as a witness only, he 
ought to be discharged and indeed he should not have been imprisoned 
at all. But in such case to enact the farce in the court's presence of 

[314] 

releasing the negro and immediately return him to his wet-nurses, at the 

Police Station, would resemble child's play. 

2. But if the Solicitor believes that one of a number of contradic- 
tory statements made by this negro may, if properly preserved, be made 
valuable in the prosecution of Frank, and that the negro may destroy its 
value if left free to talk, and in order to stop his mouth it is necessary 
that the detectives should keep him in charge, then we think we have the 
right to protest against any order of a court of justice that winks at such 
a purpose. 

3. We are constrained to the conclusion that it is not the purpose 
for any reason to release this negro, but, by obtaining the order here 
sought, continue the present, illegal confinement. 

4. But Frank is himself deeply interested in this proceeding. That 
the consent of the Solicitor and the will of the negro is all that is re- 
quired to reverse the will of the law, is erroneous. The State has the 
right in the interest of justice to put a witness in custody, but where in 
custody and in whose custody is of the highest importance. The law 
has given such custody to the Sheriff and wisely so. The Sheriff is not 
a prosecutor; the jail itself is not usually a place of punishment, but a 



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temporary place of detention. The Sheriff is supposed to stand impar- 
tially between the State and his prisoners, and may be trusted neither 
to cajole, threaten, nor suppress any testimony by third degree meth- 
ods. The law never meant to place a witness, who, for lack of charac- 
ter, needs confinement under the control of a partisan prosecutor. 

5. That the detectives should wish to keep Conley in custody and 
entertain him at the city's expense, is not at all surprising. They have 
already extracted from him extravagant, unthinkable confessions, three 
or four in number. To these statements they have given the widest pub- 
licity, and to the credibility of the last one they have staked their rep- 
utations and hope of place. 

Upon the constancy and stability of this witness, they have staked 
their all. They would be less than human if they did not bend all theif 
power and ingenuity in holding him to his present statement, adding to 
and taking therefrom only such things as will aid its credibility. 
Can any fair-minded man believe that Lanford is a fair man to be 
the custodian of this ignorant negro? What chance would he have to 
retract any lies he may have told, or if in a repentant mood, he should 
wish to tell the truth? This negro in the city prison, in the power of 
Lanford, apart from all questions of truth, would be just as dangerous 
as Lanford would wish him to be. No one knows that better than Lan- 
ford, and no one would feel it as acutely as will this negro. 

[315] 

How well Lanford knows it, can be seen from his interview in the 
Atlanta Georgian of June 12th. In that interview he demonstrated that 
he thinks he has full, unrestricted ownership of this negro. He gra- 
ciously expresses his willingness for this negro to go before the Grand 
Jury upon such terms as he suggests. Neither the negro, nor the 
negro's lawyer, nor the Grand Jury is considered. Nor was this court 
to be consulted-his will and not the order of this court was to deter- 
mine when and under what circumstances the negro should leave the 
Police Station. 

If Lanford vaunts in the face of jury and court, his power over 
this negro, what must be his bearing when he deals privately with the 
negro himself? What chance has he to abstract a lie or add a truth to 
the foolish statement which Lanford approves and wishes to maintain? 
If this man will, when he is holding this negro under your Honor's or- 
der, declare such ownership over this negro's person and movements, 
to what length would he go if the court releases its power over him and 
turns him over to Lanford's unrestricted power? 

6. It is just to Frank, as well as in the interest of public justice, 

that this negro should be detained-by unbiased, fair men, whose repu- 
tations and positions are not at stake. The law recognizes this right 
and has put that duty upon the Sheriff. Will there be less fairness and 
less decency in the county jail than in the police station? When did 
Lanford become a wiser, fairer, better man than the Sheriff of this 
Countsr? 

7. Apart from this negro's position as a witness, his detention in 



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the custody of the detectives would be a public calamity. Many un- 
biased people believe this negro is the murderer of little Mary Pha- 
gan. The facts of the case, apart from his own confession, point most 
strongly to him as the guilty man: 

(a) On the day of the murder he was drunk and concealed him- 
self in a position where he could readily commit the murder. 

(b) On Monday morning he was unduly excited, so much so as to 
arouse the suspicions of the employees. 

(c) When the police were in the building, he was caught hiding 
in an obscure part of the factory where he had no business. 

(d) When questioned about this conduct, he said he would give a 
large sum to be a white man. When asked why, he said he could then 
get safely past the police. 

(e) He, for a long time persistently denied that he could write 
and did not admit that he could until longer denial was useless. 

(f) He was caught washing a shirt, a thing he had never done 
before, and when caught, gave a foolish excuse. 

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(g) He denied all participation in, or knowledge of the crime un- 
til he was driven by the charge that he wrote the notes found near the 
body. 

(h) On May 18th, he made a signed statement outlining his ac- 
tions on April 26th, making no mention of the murder. 
(i) On May 24th, he made an affidavit. He said that on April 
25th, before the murder on April 26th, he wrote the notes at the request 
of Frank for which Frank gave him cigarettes and $2.50 and added 
statements about Frank's people in Brooklyn and an inquiry by Frank 
as to why he should hang. 

(j) On the 28th of May, Conley made a long affidavit, full of con- 
tradictions and absurdities, beginning it as follows: 
"I make this statement, my second statement in regard to the mur- 
der of Mary Phagan at the National Pencil Company factory. In my 
first statement, I made the statement that I went to the pencil factory 
on Friday, April 25th, and went in Frank's office at five minutes to one, 
which is a mistake. I make this statement in regard to Friday in order 
that I might not be accused of knowing anything of this murder, for I 
thought if I put myself there on Saturday they might accuse me of hav- 
ing a hand in it, and I now make MY SECOND AND LAST STATE- 
MENT regarding the matter freely and voluntarily, after thinking over 
the situation, and I have made up my mind to tell the whole truth and 
I make it freely and voluntarily without the promise of any reward or 
from force or fear of punishment in any way." 
(k) After this beginning he sets out with variations the writing 
of the notes on Saturday instead of on Friday, and in a long rambling 
statement his movements at home and on Peters Street on Saturday 
and on Monday at the factory, most of which is wholly disconnected 
with the murder. 
(1) On May 29th, 1913, although he had already sworn that he 



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made "his true, full and last statement," he made another statment in 
which he purported to aid Frank in concealing the body of Mary Pha- 
gan.. This statement is full of contradictions and wholly irreconcilable 
with itself and with the known facts surrounding the murder, 
(in) He closes this remarkable affidavit in the following words: 
"The reason I have not told this before is that I thought Mr. Frank 
would get out and help me out, but it seems that he is not going to get 
out, and I decided to tell the whole truth about the matter." 

8. These incoherent, jibbering statements will, it is believed, im- 
press the Grand Jury if the negro Conley's case is submitted to it. 

9. The Grand Jury can be trusted to scan these queer statements 

in the light of all the surrounding facts and circumstances and taken in 

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connection with all the other facts implicating Conley, they proclaim 

his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. 

10. The detectives, obsessed as they are with the assumption 
that Conley is a tool and not a murderer, are unfit to keep him in 
their sole and unlimited power. Under their protecting care, Conley, 
instead of being left to tell the truth, will at length deceive himself into 
the belief that instead of being a murderer he is an unfortunate victim. 

1 1 . That Conley and his counsel wish it, is the best reason why it 
should not be done. As long as he sticks to a story pleasing to the de- 
tectives, or builds up that story as additions may be needed, he is as- 
sured that the detectives will save him as far as possible from court 
and Grand Jury, and will, so far as they can, fix upon him no greater 
crime than that of a misdemeanor. 

12. Conley and his counsel are wise. There is for them no other 
hope than for the detectives to keep Conley and save him from a con- 
fession that he committed the crime, giving him immunity, provided 
he continues to put the guilt on Frank. 

Respectfully submitted, 

Rosser & Brandon, 

Attys. for Leo Frank. 

Order granted that said James Conley be discharged as prayed and 

all orders, as set out in petition cancelled that were signed heretofore 

by me. This June 13, 1913. 

(Signed) L. S. Roan, 

J. S. St. Mt. Ct., Presiding. 

The within and foregoing pages are hereby approved as a true, 

correct and complete brief of the evidence in the case therein (and at 

the caption thereof), referred to. 

Oct. 31, 1913. 

(Signed) L. S. ROAN, 

J. S. C. St. mt. Ct. 

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