Raising the Spirit: An Interview with Anne Durrum Robinson

Volume 1, Issue 2
April - June 2004

■9 .

T

MIKE BOWN. TOM CARROLL & PAUL
SCHUMANN

t Raising the Spirit: An
Interview with Anne
Durrum Robinson

"Youth is not a time of life - it is a state of mind. It is not
a matter of red cheeks, red lips and supple knees. It is a
temper of the will; a quality of the imagination; a vigor of
the emotions. It is a freshness of the deep springs of life.
Youth means a temperamental predominance of cour-
age over timidity, of the appetite for adventure over a life
of ease.

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years;
people grow old by deserting their ideals.

Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm
wrinkles the soul. Worry, doubt, self -distrust, fear and
despair - these are the long, long years that bow the
head and turn the growing spirit back to dust.

Whether ninety or nineteen, there is in every being's
heart a love of wonder; the sweet amazement at the
stars and star like things and thoughts; the undaunted
challenge of events, the unfailing childlike appetite for
what comes next, and the joy in the game of life.

You are as young as your faith, as old as your doubt; as
young as your self-confidence, as old as your fear, as
young as your hope, as old as your despair.

In the central place of your heart there is a wireless sta-
tion. So long as it receives messages of beauty, hope,
cheer, grandeur, courage, and power from the earth,
from people and from the Infinite - so long are you
young. When the wires are all down and the central
places of your heart are covered with the snows of pessi-
mism and the ice of cynicism, then are you grown old,
indeed! "

Samuel Ullman

ntroduction

The idea for this interview derived not from
wanting to understand how Annie is so creative,
innovative or intuitive, but rather something that is
characteristic of her - humor. The idea was to find
out how she used humor in her work in nonprofits,
but as we interviewed her it became obvious that hu-
mor was a tool she used in all of her life, not just on
a volunteer team or classroom. Humor permeates
her life.

We got something unexpected, as you often do with
Annie, and absolutely wonderful - the elevation of
sprit. The resurrection of the spirit out of the dust.
This explains why people love to be with Annie. No
matter what her situation is, you leave with an ele-
vated spirit after an interaction.

After the interview, I mused over whether I could find
four causes of the reality she creates. Aristotle sug-
gested that for every reality there were four causes
that brought that reality into existence - material, for-
mal, efficient and final. The material cause is the
building blocks of the new reality. The formal cause
shapes the new reality. The efficient cause is what
brings the parts together into a form described in the
formal cause. The final cause is the purpose of the
new reality.

Starting with the final cause that is raising the spirit,
her elevator humor.

The efficient or productive cause leading to this type
of humor is the fact that she has the seven forms of
humor running in her brain as an operating system -
plays on words, reverses, triples, incongruent paired
elements, exaggeration, understatement and realism.

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The formal cause, what shapes the humor and al-
lows it to lift the spirit, is the situation. It's topical
and temporal. She talked a lot about the flow - es-
tablishing it or reversing it if it's going in the wrong
direction. The humor is not directed at someone, but
with or for. It's shaped by her intuition.

The material cause is her facile brain and a lifetime
of experiences, stories, anecdotes and facts that are
the building blocks of what she does.

Annie is a master, a guru, a wise sage, a Delphic
oracle, Yoda. And, as such her messages are in the
stories she tells and the humor. She always gives
you a lot to think about and she's always given you
more than you realize. Read the complete interview
and you will see how she used humor to teach us
how she uses humor to lift the spirit.

"Personality is the supreme realization of the innate idio-
syncrasy of a living being. It is an act of high courage
flung in the face of life, the absolute affirmation of all
that constitutes the individual, the most successful ad-
aptation to the universal conditions of existence coupled
with the greatest possible freedom for self determina-
tion."

Carl Jung

Happy 91st birthday, Annie!

Q

Annie, you have a few themes running
through your work: intuition, humor, and crea-
tivity?

Yes, they are three different things. I believe that
they are intimately linked.

I'm getting ready to do a keynote speech and
my client wants me to talk about creativity
and they've suggested a title that's not very
creative. They gave the speech the title: Un-
leash Your Creativity, which is a nice title but
wouldn't get me to a speech. I asked, "Can
we give it a sub-title?" They agreed. My addi-
tion: "But Train It to Come Back When You
Whistle."

I chose that subtitle because I believe that creativity
needs to be turned loose, but not totally out of con-
trol. You want to know when you need it, where you

need it, and what kind you need. That is where intui-
tion comes into play. Very often intuition can help
you with that. Intuition helps you know where the hu-
mor is in a group.

I've known people who have come in and tried to get
groups to subtly make fun of somebody else or a
situation. And I don't think that's an enjoyable situa-
tion for everybody. There is bound to be a scape-
goat in there somewhere. Humor must be "with" and
not "at." If you can get something that's pertinent to
a particular organization (group), it's even more fun.

/ wanted to take some a film class at the Uni-
versity, and I was 37 and pregnant. Well, I
was a standout - but not in the right way! And
they didn't really want me in that class, be-
cause it was a group of young men growing
mustaches for the first time, and one other
woman in the class. She was young, and I
was 37. It was an art class. I wasn't an art-
ist, but I just wanted to take the class. I go
in, and the instructor puts up a still life and
says, "Let's do that in black, white, and two
shades of gray." And it was a charcoal class.
Well, I ended up black, white, and two shades
of gray, because I didn't know we weren't
supposed to wipe off with the chamois
[makes a wiping motion across her face with
her right hand]. I thought it was to wipe me -
not to shade the thing. Well, I stood up and
this girl behind me said, "Sit down Mrs. Robin-
son. We can't see through you. " I said,
"Honey, you'll have to draw me in the picture,
because I can't draw sitting down." From
then on, they were as nice as could be. I
don't know what the big difference was.

And then one of the fellows said, "Mrs. Robin-
son, is 'bullshit' one word or two?" And I re-
plied, "I believe that I would hyphenate it. " He
said, "What do you know about it?" I said,
"I'm a Taurus, and my maiden name was Dur-
rum. And, I know more about it than anyone
in this room. "

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I learned that there has to be a little acid in self-
defense, but if you can make it fun, it'll make it bet-
ter for everyone. I wouldn't have gone that far over
the line if he wouldn't have started it first.

I was doing one training where there was a
young fellow from Canada in the group, and
he talked, and talked, and talked, and talked.
Now I couldn't have done this is if I weren't
white-haired, but I want over to him and put
my arm around his shoulder and said, "Honey,
why don't you and I hush and let the other
people talk for a while." He said, "I haven't
had a hug since I left Canada. " I said, "Why
don't we just stand up and hug, and they can
just go on with the class. " It was all right
from then on. That's the kind of humor that
I'm talking about. Because I didn't want to
call him down, and nobody else was getting a
word in. I could say, "Shut up!" or "Be quiet!"
or "Let's give someone else a chance." But to
fill the void, the hugging worked really well.

Q

To me, with that example you highlighted that
creativity supports the development of humor
and intuition is important for finding where hu-

mor is.

Or where it should come from.

/ was working at IBM. We did one of those
rings where the people introduced a person,
then introduced the next one, and they have
to remember the names. We had an older
gentleman in the group called Roberto. He
was toward the end of the group. I could tell
that he was getting nervous and that he was
not going to remember the names. I was sit-
ting outside the circle, and when we got to
Roberto he twinkles and says, "I don't speak
English." I said, "Entonces, Senior, en
Espanol, por favor." He laughed, and then he
could name everybody around the group. This
is one of the three phrases I know in Spanish.

This is a form of humor. You can use all kinds of hu-

mor - as long as they are inclusive of everybody. I
think it is the exclusive humor that doesn't get the
desired effects.

How about your work with non-profits?

I am a non-profit! [All laugh] No, I used to
work with Dovia. I did an annual workshop for them.
And I believe in the non-profits, they struggle, and
they are in business for somebody else. Even back
when I was making a good deal of money, I always
donated at least two workshops a year. It's a form of
tithing. I just as soon do that. I feel it does a great
deal of good. I know that the gift goes where I meant
it to go when I give a workshop.

As you have worked with many non-profits
over the years, is there a particular angle that
you take with them?

No, I allow them to select the subject. Well, I have a
given range of subjects that I feel I'm capable of do-
ing them any good on. Usually these are six-hour
workshops. All I would have to ask them to furnish
would be the materials. Nowadays, I might have to
get somebody to underwrite the costs associated
with getting me there and back.

I really value non-profits because I believe that
they're doing a lot of good with a lot of effort. They
are not just struggling with doing what they do, but
they have to struggle with underwriting it too now-
when everything is non-profit. It's getting to where I
don't see how we delineate this from the other - the
intentional non-profits from the accidental non-
profits.

Q

So you let the non-profits select from your
offerings over the years. Is there a pattern in
the way that they chose?

A lot of what they wanted was the whole brain crea-
tivity type of thing. I have one called "The Seven I's
of Creativity." They often chose that because they
get help in each of the seven Is - Imagination, Illus-
tration, Ideation, Intuition, Incubation, Illumination,
Implementation. I usually start by telling people,
"You know you have these two eyes [puts her right
thumb and fingers over her eyes]. Some people say
that you have a third eye [touches index finger to the
center of her forehead]. You have two eyes in the

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back of your head - if you haven't noticed. When you
have eyes in the back of your head (intuition), you
have dozens of eyes."

Back to the humor...l think that so often people con-
sider humor telling a joke, or setting up a situation. I
think that an experienced trainer will try to perceive
what kind of humor might fit best with that group.
I'm better at situational humor - something that
arises from what is there. I'm not a good joke teller.
If I remember the first line, I can't remember the
punch line. If I remember the punch line, I can't re-
member how to get to it.

QAs a good trainer, you are already expert at
doing audience analysis: giving them a choice
of topic, discovering what their needs are.
What I'm curious about is, when you are about to go
into a situation where you know you will be using
situational humor, what is most important to you?

I just keep my eyes and ears open. I have to go on
what happens right then and there - try to figure out
what's happening.

There was a fellow who came into one of my
high-tech company classes. He came in and
said, "I just hate like hell to be here." And I
said, "Well, that at least makes two of us."
Then I said, "Anybody else feel the same
way?" Nobody else indicated that they felt
that way. We did the clap and rap - 1 said,
"You clap and I'll rap." And I did this rap that
ended up with "I'll tell you what, I'm going to
set you free. You tell your boss what you just
told me." By this time, we're all howling. He's
even laughing. It's called the reprimand rap. I
said, "Now you're free to go, but remember it's
straight to your boss."

Q

What do you think is necessary for somebody
to tap into their humor spontaneously, in the
situation?

I think that they have to have grown up with the right
kind of humor. I was a twin, and our dad had the
same trenchant kindly, humor that I've been talking
about. He was always funny but he never hurt any-
body's feelings. My mother was sweetly funny. My

twin was Achilles' funny heel. You'd be dying laugh-
ing and you'd suddenly realize that it was your heel
and you were dying laughing. And so we grew up
around a lot of humor. After mother died, we moved
in with dad's cousins. Everything was kind of
funny - through all kinds of depressions and wars, it
could have been awful. We didn't have much money.
One was divorced; one was never married. We were
all scrambling to make a living. But everybody
laughed the whole time. People would come and
they couldn't get straight how we were kin to one
another, so we made a chart and put it on the door.

In college, when you were asked to be a hostess at a
meal, the teacups were so heavy that you had to lift
them with two hands. When I got home and picked
up a china cup of coffee, I just about threw it over
my shoulder. Well, this became a joke - we talk
about "the company china" and "over the shoulder
china."

We had a bridge party in this little bitty town
and everybody gets invited. Nobody had any
money and we had to have some prizes. Well,
I had been in town earlier that day and no-
ticed that the drugstore was giving away
goldfish in a bowl. So I brought one home for
a prize. One cousin won the goldfish and she
didn't want it. She gave it to another and she
didn't want it. This went on down the line
and nobody wanted it. Finally, the last person
got it, and she knew that she was obligated
to keep it. In the sickest voice you ever
heard, she said, "Ah, goldfish!" Well that be-
came a family joke. When you got something
that you didn't want, the family said in cho-
rus, "Ah. ..goldfish!" We were just reared with
this kind of group humor.

Dad was marvelous at this kind of trenchant humor.
He could get the point across but never hurt any-
body's feelings. And mother was sweet and kindly. I
can't tell jokes. I can't remember jokes, and I don't
like to make fun of others. I usually go with situ-
ational humor. I think it's so helpful - even in crucial
situations, health situations.

Once I was in the hospital for about five

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weeks when I had a collapsed hip and so on. I
don't know why they do this, but they had the
women at one table and the men at the other.
First of all, I would come into the group and
the women would say [bending over, holding
her hand to her head and in a sickly voice], "I
didn't sleep worth a damn last night. " I said,
"Let's just face the fact that none of us slept
and let's talk about something else. And let's
not call each other 525 and 423 - that's your
room number. Let's introduce ourselves using
our names and not our room numbers. " I heard
someone laughing in the back. It was my hus-
band. He said, "Even in the hospital she's
leading a workshop!" I noticed a man at the
other table begin to prick up his ears and join
in. I said, "It doesn't matter if it's pertinent or
not, just think of something that's fun to tell.
When we come to you at the table and you're
not yet ready, that's okay, and we'll just come
back around. Just think of something that's
silly and fun to tell. " I said, "When you come in
the morning, don't say, 'Hello 525.' It's good
morning, Annie! Let's just say our first names.
Let's have some stories and let's have some-
thing that's fun to be with. Otherwise, I said I
don't think I could eat a bite. They were all
laughing, all perking up, having fun, and intro-
ducing one another.

It doesn't have to be a lot of humor. It has to be the
"spirit" of the thing. That doesn't mean that they
can't get serious again, or that doesn't mean that I'm
not seriously interested in them. But, I mean when
nobody sleeps at night, why bring it up? Because
then everybody's trying to top everyone's story - "I'll
bet you slept better than me. ..no, I'll bet you slept
better."

QCan we come back to this idea of you being
raised during the depression time, and yet the
humor is flourishing. The idea of humor and
difficulties are on different planes. You can have hu-
mor and sickness, but humor can still operate. Most
people don't think you can have humor when you're
sick or in pain. How do you get around that ... be

able to move away from that level?

Well, I think it depends on whether you're the person
in pain or not for one thing. And then if you're
brought up looking for the humor, I think that has a
lot to do with it.

/ know when I was in the hospital, people
kept showing up. I was there from the hip -
not the one that broke - but the one that col-
lapsed from the wrong therapy. People would
just come up, show up gratuitously, and they
wouldn't say anything. They would just stand
around. Finally, I said, "Who are these people
and what are they in here for?" They said,
"They heard you had your own teeth." And I
said, "Do you want me to show 'em. " I love to
be a standout, but that's not really what I'd
pick. I said, "I even have all four of my own
hairs." I thought this was hilarious, even
though I was hurting.

I think looking at the bright side is a lot how you
were reared and a lot is habit. We were reared that
way.

When we moved in with the cousins, there
was a great big upstairs bedroom. They cur-
tained off part of it and made an additional
bath. At that point, when the Saturday Even-
ing Post came - see, there's material every-
where - out came this serial called "Behind
That Curtain. " Well, this became the family
motto. Whene ver you couldn 't find anything it
was "behind that curtain." We picked up
things and they go on. Like the goldfish. To
this day, when I ask my cousin how things
are and they aren't going well she says, "Ah,
goldfish!" That tells me all I need to know.

O: Do you have a name for this type of sweet hu-
mor? You talked about your father having a
way similar to Will Rogers. Do you have a
name for this?

It's probably a situational humor. It would be con-
centric, where everybody zeros in on the center and

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keeps it forever. And it doesn't have to be...

I remember my dad sat down at the table. We
had a great big round dinner table. He picked
up the ham to pass it and at this moment
somebody decide to say the blessing. Well,
here was dad with this great big plate of ham
and he doesn't know what to do. You know
you're not supposed to be passing anything
around during the blessing. His arm was shak-
ing and everybody was peeking to see what
he would do. I can't remember now what he
named this. It was 'The Hamstrung Blessing'.

He had this Irish friend who was always say-
ing something Irishly funny. Neither one of
them were great church goers and they both
had cotton businesses down in the Valley.
They both went to church one morning, and
they passed the collection plate and passed
the collection plate and passed the collection
plate. Pat put in a dollar, and finally he got up
and started out. Dad said, "Pat don't leave un-
til they be through with it." And Pat said in a
voice so loud you could hear it all over the
church, "Oh, Bill, I'm not really going out any-
where. I'm going to just cash a check. I want
to see this thing through. "

But it's that kind of humor that just helped us out.
Of course the whole church was laughing. They all
felt the same way.

Q

When you see a moment where you can do
situational humor, what does that do for you
personally?

I love it. It is nice because I know it's going to bring
the whole place up. I think the danger is not to have
it take over the workshop. I mean. ..have, enjoy it,
then move right on to whatever you were doing. I
workshops, I don't believe in the leader doing too
much.

o

So it's a way to build their participation, but
you don't let it run away.

It can lead to somebody making fun of somebody
else if you're not careful with it. That's not what you
want.

Q

It brings the whole place up?

Yes. It's kind of an "elevator humor." But you
want to make sure that the elevator is going in the
right direction.

Q

Q;

What else does humor lead to?
The right kind of humor leads to learning.
What is the right kind of humor?

It's the kind that's based on something that
has somewhere else to go. It helps to make a point
and it moves on to something else. It's kind of fu-
turistic humor. It can be about the past, or the pre-
sent, but it leads on into the future of whatever it is
you're trying to get across to the group.

The humor leads on to where you want the group to
go. It doesn't cut you too far away from your sub-
ject.

QYou said earlier, this type of humor could be
gotten partially through rearing and partly
from habit. Could you tell us a little about de-
veloping the habit of humor?

I think you begin to get a feel for when humor might
be needed. You begin to get a feel for when it
shouldn't be used. I think that the habit you need to
be aware that you don't get is telling the same thing
over, and over, and over. Using the same examples
over and over. Look for new examples. Have in your
head and heart a library of examples that you can
pick from.

Q

You told us how to generate these examples.
It's a kind of humor that doesn't make fun,
it's the kind that. ...what does it do instead?

It doesn't make humor against any race or class.
It's humor that could be funny to everybody - as
much as possible. It elevates.

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Even if an African American can tell and African
American story and it won't bother anybody, I won't
tell one. The same thing about any nationality. I've
seen people make these jokes - about women or
men.

I don't think humor should have any targets. Avoid
targets. That's why I like the situational humor - it
fits in.

You don't have to have humor all of the time. You
don't need a joke for every kind of thing. When you
deal with humor often, you can sense when it's
needed and when it's not.

I remember using humor once at the very wrong
place. I could have kicked myself!

/ was in a workshop being led by Dorothy Sisk.
Are you familiar with Dorothy? She was the
head of the gifted education for the whole na-
tion at one time. She's now in charge of Crea-
tive Education at Lamar University. And she's
wonderful. She delivers marvelous narratives,
which most people are not good at. I wouldn't
do anything like that. We were in this great
big room with all these people. And she was
doing one other narratives. She has this
young fellow and she's describing his funeral
to him through narrative. And he's in the cas-
ket, and the people are looking over lovingly,
and what is the thing you most want to hear
people say about you? Well, he's hemming and
hawing around, trying to think of something
worthy, and she goes through it all again, and
she comes right up to this point again. And be-
fore I could stop myself I said, "Don't he look
natural."

When I was leaving, he grasped my hand and said,
"Thank you. Thank you. I hear that you live in Aus-
tin. My family and I are going to be up there next
week. Can I take you to lunch?" I said, "Yes. Yes!"

You have to be aware of the conditioned reflexes -
you just can't have them!

QYou mentioned how important it is to build a
library of examples so you don't repeat your-
self. Is there any particular brand type of hu-
mor or book that you read to build this database?

I just watch for things. For example, I just received a
book to review from Barrett-Kohler called "The Tyr-
anny of the Bottom Line." I'm looking through the
material and we were trying to get rid of some stuff,
and I found this cartoon by Bob Thaves; it featured
a fellow on the phone saying, "Can you be a little
more explicit about which 'total idiot' you'd like to
speak with? Would you like to speak to X or was it
the CEO?" Well, I just fell out laughing because this
cartoon fit so well.

Q

Annie, what are some of the principles you
use when you apply humor as it relates to
health?

Well, the first is that you don't make somebody
worse by causing resentment. Resentment causes
all kinds of poisons in the body.

What are you looking for when you're apply-
ing humor to healing?

I'm looking for any lifting of the spirit. I think that
stress and negativity kill more people than anything
we can catch. I think we're in the middle of a plague
right now and don't realize it - it's negativity. Some-
times people say, "You can't laugh this off." I say,
"Perhaps, but you can take steps to rise above it or
put it in its appropriate place."

I've heard this in every little town funeral that I've
ever gone to in my life. I could have bitten my
tongue. Everybody fell out. That is the wrong time.
It ruined her whole thing! She just gave it up. And I
know she could have killed me, and I wouldn't have
blamed her.

I'd never seen that young man before in my life.

For example, when we just had no money,
somebody lost a dime in our car and we all
got out to look for it, because we knew that
she had to have it. We got out the marble
hands from our attic - you know the praying
hands that you got from Niemans. Well,
there was an ad about them in the paper, so

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we all put out the hands on our tables. When
we got back from searching for the dime,
someone had put a quarter in the hands. I
said, " Let's leave that for seed money. " Every
time we'd go by those hands we'd fall out.
Sometimes we'd put a penny in there. That's
the kind of thing I'm talking about. It doesn't
change the situation one iota, but it re frames
things. And somebody had stolen the quarter
out of it and put it back later - loans.'

Qlf I were to be with you at the front of an audi-
ence while you were using situation humor to
raise the spirit, how would I know that the spirit
of the audience was rising?

Their expression changes. They begin to take part. I
don't think this is all for humor. I think if you're tell-
ing anecdotes sometimes you can tell uplifting ones.
It doesn't even have to be a belly laugh, a laugh, or
even a snicker to raise the spirit.

/ was doing something for a residential retire-
ment community. They had hired me to talk
about how to raise the spirit and so forth. I
said, "Let's just practice some of the forms.
Let's do the twinkle [she holds her chin up,
raises her eyebrows, has a slight smile on her
face, and rapidly blinks her eyelids]." I got six
or seven people up twinkling. The next one
would demonstrate the eye bat. The next
would demonstrate a tentative smile. Then a
titter, a chuckle, and we got down to the one
who was going to do a belly laugh. She was a
tiny woman, but she let out a laugh so loud
that you could have heard it from the Capital.
I said, "I don't know how you can do that with
no belly. " I realized after that I had missed an
opportunity. I could have given her the "No-
Belly Prize." After the belly laugh, we finally
had a fellow who was willing to do the fall-
down-laughing laugh. And this brings the
house down. He was holding his stomach and
they were all coming apart. You don't have do
it just for humor, you can do it with anything
that lightens or raises the spirit.

You can do it with anything really that lightens or
raise the spirit. I've had people do their poems. I
love to use haiku's. Pick a subject and do haiku's.
One class during early downsizing time, I gave them
30 minutes by themselves or with a partner to write
about a problem.

Q;

What does it take to raise the spirit?

First you have to believe that raising the spirit
can be done. And, you have to believe that people
can raise their own spirits. They have to know how
to go about that - deep breathing, relaxation, men-
tal picturing and make an honest effort to raise their
spirit.

I think chewing on the same problem over and over
is very detrimental. You know that it's there. You're
trying to find a way to do something about it. To sit
there and think about the problem over and over is
not advancing anything. So you do what you might
do in a brainstorming session. You begin to think of
anything, silly, serious or otherwise that could be
done. And, some of the silliest ones can be what
you'll do.

I consciously act on my intuition about humor when
a group needs it. But, not just humor, but raising
the spirit especially.

How about raising your own spirit?

I'm an outdoor person. So all I have to do is
get outdoors.

For example, once when I had gone out to re-
lax, I saw these little birds. And they're all
flying south and they've hit Austin and a
freeze. They're in a pickle. They're all lined
up on a wire. How they sit there with two lit-
tle bitsy feet on that narrow wire, I don't
know. They don't even flap their wings and
they still manage to stay on the tiny wire. I
think that that is the human condition... All of
a sudden, one of the birds few off and sat by
himself. I thought he's just fed up with the
whole thing. He doesn't like the bunch and
he's going to go off and sulk.

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I think a lot of this is habit. It's habitual thinking. You
don't downgrade or negate what's happening. You
look at it and try your best to figure something out.
But, I'm not helping myself by sitting and thinking
how miserable I am.

Q

What do you say to yourself instead?

I'm saying, "Look at it the way it is. Look at
what you wish it was. And then, try to figure out a
way to close that gap." You do not close that gap by
being miserable and chewing it over and over. You'll
never close the gap and what you will do is run down
your defenses.

Q

Is finding what works for you a key element in
raising the spirit?

It's like trying on clothes. You just don't put on the
black or the white. You try different colors and styles
until you find the one that makes you feel good. It'll
be different for different people.

Different things work for different people. You can't
generalize on what will help.

It's like intuition. Everybody has to keep trying until
they find what their intuitive signals are. They're dif-
ferent for everybody and they may be different for the
same person at different times.

Q

: If something doesn't work with a group, what
do you do?

Try something else. You have to have an arsenal of
different approaches, or know when to quit.

/ was doing this program for a group at Christ-
mas time. I was supposed to do take-offs on
some of their people. You know take-offs only
work when it's about the popular people. I did-
n't know it, but they had given me unpopular
people. So there I was on this high, lighted
stage. I tried several. No reaction. So I laugh-
ingly asked the audience if they were still
there. A voice came back, "Yes ma'am, we're
still here. " So I wished them a Merry Christ-
mas and left the stage. It was time to let go.

I was doing this program for a high-tech com-
pany. It was early in the morning. The people
had just come from shift work. They were
sleepy. I passed a bag around for them to en-
ter their names for a door prize. I asked if
everyone was in the sack. And a man said,
"We wish we were."

Q

When it's working, what's happening?

It's flow. It's what's coming back is equal to
what's going out.

Have I told you about flow? I don't mind telling older
people the same story because they don't remem-
ber anyway.

I have two books on flow and for no known
reason at all about six weeks ago I got the
books out to look at them again. About two
weeks ago, this fellow called me, someone
I've never heard of, he was doing a doctorate
on flow. He said he'd been told to call me. It
was intuition at work. Synchronicity and in-
tuition are all tied together.

Q

Could you tell us a little about the experi-
ence of intuition?

I think that coincidence, synchronicity, and intuition
are so tightly tied together that you can't tell where
one stops and the other one starts.

With flow, what's coming back, equals what's going
out. There's lots of mutuality going on. It goes out,
and comes back- it's a timeless flow. It's like being
in the zone.

o:

What are you noticing in your body?

I just notice it all over. And that's a large ter-
ritory -- a huge area! [We all crack up!]

What does it feel like?

It just feels wonderful - like everything's all
right. Like you could go on forever and they could

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10

go on forever.

It's the way workshops were meant to be - they're
going somewhere - they're learning and you're learn-
ing.

In water, it's as if the river is flowing into the ocean
and the ocean is flowing back into the river. It's flow-
ing in both directions.

Q

What is it that is flowing?

It is harmony and awareness, tranquility, imagi-
nation, wisdom, and joy. I think knowledge is flow-
ing. And enjoyment of one another. I'm enjoying the
group and they're enjoying me. We're enjoying
spending time together.

o

What do you notice when it's not happening?
What is the clue that we might not be in flow?

Or we may never be. It's the changing expressions.
It's the tones of voice. Maybe the utter lack of re-
sponse.

You've said before in many of your workshops
that laughter is contagious.

The right type of laughter is contagious. I can walk by
a group of men, and I can tell by the quality of laugh-
ter whether they are telling dirty jokes.

Raising the spirit is not just laughter, it's that every-
body's in the same zone. It's that everyone's
"clicking." What I'm doing is flowing out to them.
What they're doing is flowing back to me and to each
other. Everything's going all right. Everything's
smooth. Or you might be getting ideas about how it
might go better. If you're visiting with somebody,
you've had the flow experience. If you're reading
something and it's hitting the right spots.

Flow can be almost anything where everything's all
right! It's almost entirely a felt sense - you don't even
have to see or hear anything. You can have a flow
experience in your dreams. Or, I can just sit in here
by myself and have a flow experience.

Q

: Annie, have you ever come upon a situation
where you were feeling kind of ho-hum and the
other folks you were relating to were feeling the

same way, and you knew that the situation called for
a lifting of the spirits? If so, what did you do raise
the spirits?

I don't try to start on them right away. I think pro-
fessional "lifter uppers" can really irritate a group.
Some people enjoy being miserable for a while. I
like to let them get it over with a little bit. If I'm not
in charge of the situation, I do differently. If I am in
charge of it, I can do various things.

If I'm not in charge of it, I may subtly say some-
thing, or have out something.

/ met with a group at one of the conferences
and we went out to have cocktails. There
was one fellow who was causing a lot of dis-
sent/on. I had this marvelous little book
about creativity that was put out by DuPont
and Bob Thaves had illustrated it throughout.
There was one cartoon where there were
two fellas on a seesaw, and one of the guys
was on it upside down. We took it up there,
and we began to pass it around. We began
laughing so hard that they wouldn't sell us a
second drink. We'll, soon the troublemaker
began laughing. I was sort of glad that they
wouldn't serve him a second drink.

n Again, how can you tell in this situation that
. the spirit is lifting?

Well, if you have your people barometer out you can
tell.

It's like horses - they know whether the ba-
rometer's going up or down. Used to be an
old stallion at a stable, when it got cold, he'd
wool up. When it got hot, he'd shed. Most of
the other horse sat around and waited - not
this horse. He'd be shedding, wooling up,
shedding, wooling up - like instant replay.

I think you kind of wait to see if the spirit of the
group is going to lift itself. I think professional spirit
lifters are kind of tiresome. I know people who if you
try to lift their sprits "professionally," they will see
that that won't happen.

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11

Q

So you do this covertly?

Yes. The world "spirit lifter" is not in my vo-
cabulary. When somebody comes out and says, "I'll
have you laughing!" I'm thinking, "You want a bet?"

You have to be able to feel the group. You have to be
able to find out where the problem is coming from.
You don't want to make fun of the problem. On the
other hand, you don't want to wallow in it. You have
to find out what it is and where it's coming from. And
find out a way to work with the feeling or diffuse the
feeling. You have to find different ways of dealing with
it, but you have to find out what it is first.

Q

When you encounter this 'problem group'
nie, what do you notice?

An-

It's the faces - expressions. You can tell if
they're sad, angry, or bored. I can even tell when I
get with a group that they don't like other people.

/ remember at IBM once I had go out one time
early in the morning, when it was still dark,
way out in one of those trailers. I was out
there all by myself in this classroom. And this
man comes and stands in the door. I say,
"Can I help you?" He didn't say anything. I
thought, "He's going to kill me. " Here I am al-
ways the optimist! Then he moved a little
closer. I asked if I could help him again. He
didn't respond and moved within a few feet of
me. At this point, I abandoned all tact and
said, "What do you want?"

He looks a little startled and says, "I guess I
didn't know they'd hire a white-haired
woman." I said, "I'm delighted that you're
wrong, and I'm the teacher. You've still got
time to go home. " They had never had a
white-haired woman teach before. They had
white-haired men, but not women.

When you experience flow, what's going back
and forth internally? Expectations and reality?

I'm not sure, but I'll hazard a guess. It's among

chakras. It's an alignment of the chakras. It's a feel-
ing of total alignment.

O Internally we know that you have a relaxed
sensation of internal alignment. What sorts of
external aspects are there to being in flow?
What would your gestures be like, for example?

I'm not a great with gestures because I was in tele-
vision for a long time. I was taught to keep my
hands still. Lots of trainers walk up and down.

When I first was teaching a radio writing
class, there was a woman who used to lean
as he followed my walking across the class.
She was like a sunflower following the sun. I
had such a sense of responsibility to keep
her upright.

Now I have to be at a table so that I can be near my
materials. I like to hand out the materials before
the class - have them waiting for the people when
they come in. Also, I like to have my teaching mate-
rials in an easy-to-reach place, so I don't spend time
looking at them.

I don't want to invite you over for dinner and be so
busy in the kitchen that I don't have time to look at
you.

/ think always about the time when Harold,
my husband, and Chub, my twin, were going
to have a dinner party - there was a woman
from NBC down here. And the table was like
Christmas, done up like a big package. Har-
old and I arrived. Chub had two small chil-
dren - Margaret and David - she rushed out
and said, "I burned up the main dish. You got
to do something about it." And she went
back to the kids. We didn't even know what
the main dish was. Well, it was chicken that
was burned black. I said, "Harold, get in the
liquor cabinet, get out everything in there,
and pour it all over the chicken. " The woman
kept asking for the recipe. It was "finger liq-
uor" good chicken. We just disguised it.
Sometimes you have to do that in teaching

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12

as well.

Q

So, you're in this state of flow, what's that like
for you?

If you've ever been an actor, it's like having a suc-
cessful play. The audience has just finished loud,
loud clapping, and maybe even standing. Every-
body's so pleased. So happy. And you know you've
done what you came to do.

I imagine that expert cooks get this when they serve
a very delicious, well-received dish - like finger-liquor
chicken! I think painters get that when they've fin-
ished a really nice work. It's total harmony with eve-
rything.

Q

A musician who has played a piece wonder-
fully.

It's not just that the person has performed well. It's
the interchange between the audience and performer.
It's the flow between them, the exchange. They've
gotten a lot from you; you've gotten a lot from them.

A poem, for example, that has something in it that
people can relate to. I just wrote a poem about grow-
ing older creatively. At the end of the poem, it says,
"So let's roll." So everything is right where it's sup-
posed to be - having done what you were supposed
to have done. There's total harmony. You've fulfilled
your purpose and you've met your own expectations
as well as others. Harmony.

What is the question that drives you?

Am I giving them value - the best they should
get? Am I giving them enough? Am I giving them too
much? Am I giving them enough time? Am I giving
them something that will lead them on to more of
something? What do they, themselves need to get?

Q;

Is there anything we didn't ask?

We didn't ask much past the range of humor
and flow. I think there are many things that I'm in-
terested in like accelerated learning, like the whole
brain-mind activity. We talked a little about intuition.
We didn't talk much about the rest of the I's - no-
body really knows the value of illustration. We didn't
talk about implementation. People have all these

great ideas but they don't do much with them.
Problem solving - ways of actually taking hold of
problems and trying to solve them. That is opposed
to "problem sobbing." That is utterly a whole differ-
ent thing. I do different workshops on these. People
waste so much time on sobbing.

At NBC, they used to come in, holding their
heads. I finally told one fellow, "Have you
ever thought about going back to your desk
and trying to do something about it?" I'm
happy to listen to it - but every morning from
the same person. I feel that way sometimes
about my older friends who like to tell me
about their ailments. To tell me the same ail-
ment... .they're not doing anything about it,
and I can't do anything about it.

All of these things are about freeing spirit to realize
itself fully. The actual solutions can come from a
higher source. That's what our minds do every
night. The way of the deliberative intuitive mode is
to put everything you know about the problem out
there, then you send the conscious mind to sleep.
The subconscious mind searches all its bases -
goes to other minds, higher minds (the God Mind,
or whatever you want to call it). If you put that in as
you're going to sleep you may get the answer. We
don't use that much. I use that a lot. I've always
used that.

o

How do you do that?

Put in everything you know when you are in
Alpha state.

Then you pose the questions you have.

Then you get the ideas.

You get the conscious mind out of it. The conscious
mind doesn't have the resources of the unconscious
mind. As you come out of natural Alpha state. I
would recommend that you keep a pad and pen by
the bed when you come out of sleep.

I usually, have my answers when I wake up at 4 or 5
in the morning, come down to make breakfast, and I
look up this hill.

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13

You handle it like any good problem-solving proc-
esses. You make separate assignments for each of
the problems.

What about your central purpose for raising
the spirit?

Not only raise the spirit, but give it something to do.

o

Can you articulate principles or values of rais-
ing the spirit?

It puts you on a higher of plane of thinking. It tempo-
rarily erases the negativity that says, "I'll never be
able to do this, or I can't do this." It helps you look
over the wall and get a future perspective that's
hopeful and helpful. It may even show you a different
place that you want to go or thought to go.

We used to do an exercise where we examined our
career. We took off the first five years, and then we
divided the remainder in thirds. For each division we
would ask two questions:

1. What were two things that happened?

2. What was the payoff?

In doing this exercise, you'll discover that sometimes
people are getting the same payoff, but that's not
what they want anymore. They have changed payoffs
in their mind, but they are still going for the money
or going for the fame.

My payoff has changed completely. My payoff is try-
ing to see that you do the most you can do. I do eve-
rything you can think of to get you at your highest po-
tential. That wasn't what I started with.

We've found that people are still working at making
more money when that is not their payoff. Getting
more fame, and that's not their payoff. They are still
not changing their effort when they have totally
changed their payoff.

I learned this in the first grade. I was an iden-
tical twin. There was the cutest little boy. His
name was Robert, and he ran up to me at re-
cess and he had these wine balls, which were
these little red candy balls. Robert Grant ran
up to me and gave me a sack of wine balls. I

was beside myself. I said, "Oh, Robert. Thank
you. And don 't tell Ma rye where I am. " He
said, "You're not Marye?" I said, "No. " He
said, "Give me back the wine balls. "

It should have crushed me. Instead, for the
first time in my life, I found that I had a differ-
ent identity. It was the first time anybody
had not called me the Durrum Twins.

I should have been killed. I was gleeful! See,
our payoffs change. From then on, I didn't
care if they called us the Durrum Twins; I
knew I wasn't the same gal - we weren't
even Siamese.

Authors

Mike Bown

Tom Carroll

Ability Now

http://abilitynow.com

mike@abilitynow.com

tom@abilitynow.com

Paul Schumann

The Innovation Road Map

PO Box 26947

Austin, TX 78755-0947

512.302.1935

paul@theinnovationroadmap.com

www.theinnovationroadmap.com

© 2004, Mike Bown, Tom Carroll and Paul Schu-
mann

The Innovation Road Map Magazine, Vol. 1, No. 2, April-June 2004
www.theinnovationroadmap.com