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Full text of "The Queen vs. Louis Riel, accused and convicted of the crime of high treason [microform] : report of trial at Regina.-Appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench, Manitoba.-Appeal to the Privy Council, England.-Petition for medical examination of the convict.-List of petitions for commutation of sentence, Ottawa"

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THE QXJKEN • t^ 
LOUIS RIEL, 



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ACCUSED AND CONVICTED OF THE CRIME OF EIGE TREASON. 

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REPORT 



TRIAL A'P HEGINA.-^I'I'KAL TO TIIK COIKT OF QIEKN'S BENCH, MANITOBA. 
— APFKAL TO THK PRIVY COl'NCIh, KXCil.ANU. PETITIOX FOR MEUIOAI, 
EXAMINATION OF THE CONVICT. -LIST OF PETITIONS FOR CO.MMITA- 
TION OF SENTENCK, OTTAWA. - 







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OTTAWA : 
PRINTED BY THE QUEEN'S PRINTER. 

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CAMWA 1 

North- Wist Tcrritoiio. j 



STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATE'S COURT. 



THK i,>rEEN' 



horiS lUKL 



Chimjiil nil III! Iiiilirliiiinf lot- niijli Tri^naoii, 

Hililil- till Xurtli U^rif Tiriilui-iin Arl, I- 



liK(;lXA, I'Otli July, KSSo. 



Till- »''(>uit iisKfiiiKltd iit 11 A.-M. 



-Ml!. •hsTlci: UicilAHDSDN. -I liiivc to aiiiioiiiKr tli;i( Mr. Heiirv LcJ.-uue \vill lie 
the A>sc)i-iiitc Justice t'di- the iiiiproiuliiiii; triiii ;• Mi-. l)i\ie Watson, clerk; Wallace. 
IMacleaii, .1. S. .Monahaii, James T. Parkcs and V. M. Maivenu, otticial leporters. 

-Mr. Slieritl', will you rt.ani the inecept. 

Piecept lianilccl liy tlie Sheriir to tile cleik who reads the return and calls tlif list 
of Jurors. '' , ' 

His HoNdi! .Mi:. Jistick llicii.MiDSQX. — The clerk will ojieu the Court. 
Court opened liv the clerk. •. 

is; in the prisoner. 



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Mr. JrsTiCK 11kii.\rd.sox. — Mr. Sheriti', ^vill you In 
-Prisoner liroUirht in and placed in the dock; ^ ' 

Mil. JlsTlci; lllcilAlilisox. Louis Uiel, hav*' you lieen furnished \vitli 

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a copy of-. 



cliar;;e, of the panel of jurors, of the list of witnesses for the prosecution \ 
PiilsoNKit. Yes, your honor. 

Mh. J usTUK Rlcii.vKiJSOX.- Arraign the jirisoner. 
The clerk rertds the indictment, as follows : — . / 

Sixth day of July, iii-tht^ year of Our Lord ISSo, at the Town of Regiiia, in the 
North-West Territories. \ ^ 

Before me, llui,'li Piichanlson, one of the Stipeiuliary Magistrate?! of ihe North-West 
Territories, exercising; Criminal Jurisdiction under the provisions oVthe North- West 
Act, J SMO. . ^ 

Loris Kiel, you stand charged on oath before me as follows : — 'I 

'•The Hiformation and complaint of Alexander David Stewart, of 'the City of 
Hamilton, in the Province of Ontario, in the Dominion of Canada, Chief of Police, taken 
the sixth day of July, in the year of Our Lortl one thousand eight hundred and. eigluv- 
live, before the undersigned, one gf Her Majesty's Stipendiary Magistrates, in and for 
the said North- West Territories of Canada, who saith :^ ., • 

•• 1. That Louis Riel being a suljject of Our Lady the Queen, not regarding the 
duty of his aJlegiance, nor having the fear of God in his heart, but being moved and 
seduced by the instigation of the Devil, as a false traitor against our said Lady the 
Queen, and wholly withdrawing the allegiance, tidelity and obedience which every true 
and faithful subject of our said Lady the Queen, should and of right ought to b«ar 



t(Nsiirrlh our s:ii(l Ladv tho Qnwii, in tlic year iifoifsiiifl, on the twciity-sixtli day of 

!Shiri-^. tojiftlicr witli divei-.s other falsf traitors to the .said Alexainh'r David Stewart, 

unknown, iirnied and airayed in a warlike manner, tliat is to say, with guns, rities, |>is- 

' tols, hayoiiets and other weapons, lieins fiien unlawt'idly, maliciously and traitorously 

a.ssemhhid and j;athered toijetlier a;;ainst our said Lady the Queen, at the loeality known 

as ]Juek Lake, in the said Xortli-West Terr-itories of Canada, and within this Healni, and 

did tlien malieiously and traitortiu^ly attemiit and endeavour liv foiee and arms to suli- 

veit anil clestroy the Constitution and tiovernment of this lleaini as liy law estaMished, 

and di>]>rive and de])ose-our said Lady the (^ueen of and froin the style, jionour and 

"kin;ily name i><* t lie I miH.'iial Crown of this Itealin, in contempt of our said Lady the 

.<^ueen and her laws, to the e\il examjil.e of all r)tliers in the like case olt'endini;, contrary 

to the (huy of the allegiance f)f him the said Louis ]vi<d, against th<' form of the statute 

in such case made and provided, and against the [leace of our said Lady the (t^ueen, her 

Crown and <lignity. ••. - 

f ' ^'2. And the sai<l Alexander I)a\id Stewart further saith : That the said L(>uis 

Kiel, being a suhject of our Lady, the Queen, not regardin.!.' the duty of liis allegiafice, 

«ioi' having the fear of <iod in his iieart, liut lieing mo\ed and seduced hy the instigation 

of the Devil as a false' traitor against our said Lady the Queen anfl wholly witlidniwing 

the allegiance, fidelity and ohedience which fnery true and faitliful suhji-ct of our .said 

'Lady the Queen should and of right ought to liear towartls our said Lady the Queen, on 

tlie twenty-fourth day of Apiil in the year aforesaid, together with other divers false 

traitors to the said Alexander David Stewart unknown, armeil and arrayed in a warlike 

manner, tlwt is to say, with guns, ritieii, jiistols, liayonets and otiier weapons lieing then 

unlawfully, maliciously and traitorously assemliled and gath*eii-d together'- against . our 

•said r^uly the (,)ueen, niost wickedly, maliciously and-traitorous|y did lc\y and make'war 

against riur said L;nlv the Queen, at the. locality kno«n as Fish ('reck, in the said 

jNorth-W'est Jerritoiies of Canada, and within this Ueidm, and diTI then maHciou:^ly and 

traitorousfV attemjit and endeavoi- hy force and ai-ms to suliver'. and destroy the 

Constitution and Cciveinment nf this I'calm as liy law estalilishcd. and deprive and 

<k'p6se our said Jjidy the Queen of and from the style, honour and kingly name of ' 

- tlic Luperial Crovyn iif this Itealm, in contemiit of mn- said Lady the <,>ueen and 

|ier Jaw.s, to tlie evil examjjle of all otln-r- in the like case otii-nding, cc)ntrarv to tile duty 

' of the allegiance of him, the .said Loui.s IMel, against the form of' the Statute in such 

.case niiule and ]>rovidt'<l and ajfainst the peace^of our said Liidy tiie Quei-n, her Crown 

find dignity. • ». ' 



V 5" .i. • And tlie .sai<l Alexander David Stewart fiilrthei- saitli ; That tiie .said Louis 
Kiel, being a suliject of o\n' Ijiidy the Queen, not legariling the duty of his allegiance nor 
lia^ing the fear of (Imd in lii.s heart, hut lieiiig moved and .seduced hy flic instigation ^f 
the J)e\il, iis a traitor against our said liady the Queen, and wholly withdrawing -the 
allegiajjce, lidelity and oliedience w-hich i-very true and fuithful suliject of oui- said Lady 

jjdft' Queen .shoulil and of light ought to hear towards our .said Lady tire Queen, on the 
ninth, tenth, eleventh and twclftJi days of .^Lly, in the year aforesaid, togetlier with 
other (K\eis false trait+»t.s t»j tlie said Alexander J)a.\id Stewart unknovvn, armed and 
arrayed in ji^warlike nijinner, that is to say, with ^uns, ritles, pistols, liayonets and other 
weapons.' lieing then unlawfully, maliciously and traitorouslv as.->emliled hii|I gathered 
togdther against our said I>a(ly the Queen most wickedly, maliciously and traitorously 
did jjBvy ai'iil make war against our said Jjady the Queen at th(? locality known us 

^IWm'he, in the .^aid 'Jsorth-\V est Territories of Canada, and within thi.-, Uealm, and 
did then maliciously and traitorously attempt^ and endeavor hy foi-ce and arms to subvert 
and destroy the Constitution antl, (iovernment of tlii.s Uealm as by law estab- 
lished, and dejirive aim depose our said Lady tlie Queen of and from the style, honour 
aiidliingly name'' of tlie Liii)erial Crown of this Uealm, in contempt of our .said Ijiidy tlie 
Queen and her laws, to the evil example of all others in like case offending, contrary to 
the duty of the allegiance of^him, the .said Limis Uiel, against the form of the Statute in 



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sucli ease luudc mid jirovidnl mid injaiust tlii' jicaco of our said Ladv the Quoeiii'her 
Crown and dij^nity. 

" +. AikI tlio said Alexander David Stewart further wiitli : Tliat the said liOuis l\ 

Kiel, tlien living' witliin tlie Doinitiion of C'auaila and under tlie protection of our Lady 
the Queen, not rej^ardinj^ the duty of liis allegiamveT^or liavin^ the t'eaiflpf (lod in hi 
Jieart, liut l>einj; moved and seduced l>y the instij^ation of tlie Devil as , ; • o' 

aj^ainst our said Lafly- the Queen, and whollv withdrawini; the alle;,'iaiice, hdelity and 
oliedience which he should and of right ou;^lit to hear towards our said Lady the Queen; 
on the twenty-sixth day of ^Liivh, in the year aforesaid, together with other divers false 
traitors to the said Alexaiidei' David Stewrart unknown, aru.ed and arrayed in a warlike 
manner, that is to say, with j^uiis, riHes, jiistols, liayonets and othi'r weapons, beini^ then 
unlawfully, maliciously and traitorously assemliled and feathered to;;etlier aijainst our 
said Lady the Queen, most wickedly, maliciously and traitorously did levy and make v 
war against our said IjJidy the (^ueeii at the locality known- as Duck Lake, in the said ^ 

Xorth-West Territories of (,'anada, and Within this Realm, and did then maliciously 
and traitorously attempt and endeavor hy force and arms to suhvert and destroy the 
Constitution and (ioverniiient of this Realm as hy law estahlished, and deprive and depose 
our said Lady the Queen of and from the style, honour iyid kingly name of the Imperial 
Crown of this Realm, in contempt of our said Lady the (jueen and her laws, to the evil ^ 
example of all others in like case ollendiug, contrary to the duty of the allegiance of him, 
the said f^ouis Riel, against the form of the Statutt< in such case made and provided and 
against the peace «f our said Lady the Queen, her CrowU and dignity. 

" 5. And the said Alexander David Stewart further saith : That the said Louis 
Riel, then living within the Dominion of Canada, and under the protection of our said 
Lady tlie(<ilueen, not regarding the duty of his allegiance nor having the fear of Gwl in ' 
his heart, hut being moved and seduced hy the instigation of the De\ 14 as a false traitrtr 
against our said Laih' the t^hiecn, and wholly withdrawing the allegiance, fidelity and 
oliedience which he should and of li^ht ought to hear towards our said Lady the Quieeu, 
on the twenty-fourth day of A]iril, in the ye.ii- aforesaid, toijether with other divers falsfe 
traitors to the said Alexander jtavid Stewart unknown, ariiied and arrayed in a warlike 
manlier, that is to say, with guns, ritle^, jjistols, liayonets and other weapons, lieing thea 
unlawfully, maliciously and traitorously assembled and gathered together against oi»r 
said l^nly the (^ueeii, most wickedly, maliciously and traitorously did levy and make waf 
against lair said Lady the Queen, at the locality known as Fish Creek, in tin; Sivid 
N'orth-NVest 'J'erritories of (.'anada, and within thi^ Realm, and did then maliciously and 
traitorously attempt and endea\ 111', hy force and arms| to suh\ert an<l destroy the Con- 
stitution and ( ioverniiient of this Realm as hy law estahlished, and deprive iwid depose, 
our said I«ulv the t^hicen of and from the style, honour and kindly name of the Imperial 
Crown of this llealm, in contempt of our said Lady tlie Queen and her laws, to the evil 
exaiiijile iit all others in like case ortending, contrary to the allegianci' of li)m, the said 
Louis Riel, against the foiiii nf the Statute in such case made and provided, and against 
the peace of our said Jjidy the (^Jueen, her Crown and dignity. , 

■• t). And the said Alexander David Stewau further sailli : That the said Louis 
Riel, then li\ ing witJiin the Dominion of Canada and uiider the protection of ( )ur 
Sovereign Lady thi' Queen, luit regarding the duty of his allegiance, nor having the tear 
of tiod in his lu-art, hut heing moved and seduced hy the instigations of the Devil as a 
false traitor against (Jur said [..ady the Queen, and wholly withdrawing the allegiance, 
Hdelity and ohedieiice which he should ami of right ought to he.ir towards ( )ur said Lady " . 
the yueeii, on the ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelth days of May, in t'le year aforesaid, 
together with divers oth^r fal.se traitors to the said Alexander l>avid Stewart unknown, 
arivled and ar»^yed in a warlike iiiauuer, that is to say with guns, riHes, pistols, bayonets 
and other weapons being then unlawfully, maliciously and traitorously a.ssemhled and 
j;athered agaiVist Our said Lady the Queen, most wickedly and maliciously ami traitorously 
tlid levy and make war against (,)ur said Lady the Queen, at the locality known as 



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Baloilie, lii-^tln' Siiid XoitJi West Tcrritoiics of (jaivulii. iiiid witliiii tliis liOiillii .and 
(lid tlii'ii, iii;ili(.-iim.sly aiul traitorously iitti'iiijit iuid I'udciivour liy forci^ find ai-iiis to julivort 
and destroy tile Constitution and (iovernineut of this Realm as liy law e-,tal»lislicd, and 
depiive and depose Our said Lady the Queen of and from tlie style, honour and kinj;ly 
iimne of the linperinj Crown of tliis llealni in eontenipt of < )ur said Lady the (Jueen and 
her laws, to the evil example of others in like case orteiidiii!,', contrary to the duty of 
iiHefiiSnce of him, the said Louis lliel, a.v':»iiist the form of the Statute in such case made 



and" providi' 
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ajjanist the pi 



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Liidy the 

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Sworn liefore me,'the day and year first aliove 
mentioned, at the town of Rej^ina, in t)ie North 
West T^Ti-itorieij f)f Canada. 



A. 1). STKWART. 



(Si.^'ne.l) ' 



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Hl'iiH RICHARDSON. 

niriiii- ill I'll'/ I'll' III'' Xor/i'i- 



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ClEKK. - -Ijouis Riel, are you ijiiiity or not uuilty .' 

>Ii«. Jl'stick RuilAKUsrfS".- Wlio appears for the prosecution ? 

Mr;. Cinn.sTi\i>iieii Roiiivson Q. C. —I appe.u- with ms' learned friimls I;. I!. u>|i>f, 
Q. C, U. W. lJur!.id;.'e, ^l ('., I). L. Scott anil T. C Casj/riiin. ' 

Mit. F. X-. TiKMlKUX. I apjiiiai' for the iirisoner with Mr. Charles Fit/patrick, J. N. 
CJreenshields and T. (,'. .lohnston. I hold in my hand a jilea ti> the jurisdiction <if the. 
Court, su|>ported hy the usual aliidavits, and we have aj,'reed that Mr. Fit/patrick shall 
arjfue that part of the i-ase. Will your Honor he kind enou.^ii to have the prisoner swear 
to the iitlida\ it suiiportiiii,' the plea^ ; 

^Ik. Rl('il.\i!l)SOV.--Tiie clerk may swear him now, as the Court is ojien. -; 

I ■ A^davit sworn to hy the prisoner-. 

Mr. FlTEHATlilCK. - -May it-please your Honor, [ will now jir-!)cee<I to reail to tlrt^ 
Ccuirt the plea to tl:e jurisdiction of the Court in this case and atlidavit. 

; . "THE QUEEN i«. LOURS RIEL." 

• " Clini'jiil uiid'-r tlir .Vartli^Wpsl /irritorien Art JSS'K 

"And the said Louis Riel, in his own proper per.son conieth into a Court liere and 
liavinj; heard the information and complaint of Alexander David Stewar-t, of the City of 
Hamilton, in the Province of Ontario, in the Dominion of Canada, Chief of Police, taken 
the sixth day of July, in the year of Our Lord one thou.saud ei;,'ht liuiulred and eiuhty- 
tive, hefoie Hugh Richardson, one of Her Majesty's Stipendiary Magistrates in and for 
the North- West Territories of Canada, saith : ' 

" That Hugh Richardson, Esq., one of Her Majesty's Stipendiary Magistrates for the 
North- West Territories of Canada, exercising criminal jurisdiction, in open Court, with a 
justice of the peace and a jury of six, under the provision of the Norfh-We.st Territories 
Act, 1880, ought not to take cognizance of the offences in the said infomnation charged and 
specified hecause, protesting that he is not guilty of the saine^ nevertneless. tlie said Louis 
Riel saith that the ofl'ences with wliich he is charged are punishable witn death and he 
should Vje committed for safe custody and sent for trial to Upper Canada or to any 
Court constituted in British Columbia, taking cognizance of like offences committed 
therein, and because in virtue of the laws in force in the place where the said offences 
are charged to have been committed, the said Hugh Richardson, in open Court, with a 

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justice of the peace und a juiy of six, lius no jurisdiction to try tlie otl'ences cliargetl in 
tlie said infonniition. 

"WlieiTt'ore tlicsaid Loui's Kiel prays jud<fHT(MiF it' the sa^HLHu;;!! Richardson in open 
Court witii a justice of the peace and a ^ry of six now lieiV^will take coj^nizauce of 
the cRar;;es' aforesaid. ' 



Opurt here adjourned till one o'clock. 
ResHiired after adjournnii'.it 



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ICesHiiren atter adiournniint. 

His IfTiNol! .Ml!. .llsTliK IvKllAKD.-ioN. Hefore you proceed, 1 un(U'r.-.taUd tliere are 
<|uite a nundier of prisoners in cust6<ly. ; 

-Mii. OsLKi!. — Seventy tliree. 

-Ills Hoxoi!. -Oo.ins tliroti^li all tliese will take a very lonj,' time, a ^reat number 
of days. Tlie prospects are that this case, if it does not close at once, will take a consi- 
deralile time and will lie folloMfVI l>v the others. 1 think it would lie unfair for the 
prisoners to keep them. lon<;er in custodv than iieces.sary, and 1 propose therefore, tM ' 
there are other ■,'entlenieii haviiij^ the same jurisdiction as .iiiy.self, to ask tli6 (loveni- 
meiit to send one of them to hold Court so its to have the two Courts sitting' at the .same 
time, if you j;entleiiieii lunc no oljection to that course. 

Mli. RolilXsov. -We ha\ <• iiii ulijecii.iii to that. We were talkiii;; al.out it this 
niorniii<'. 



MluFlTZI'.vnilcK. luill pii.cei'd to n-ad our plea to the Jurisdii-tion of the (.'ourt; 
as amended in sfime re.sjiect^. 

Jfl.s Ho.Noi;. This will In- Niilistiluti'd for the one put in my hand thi.-> iiKiriiiuL;. 

-Mr. Kitzpatriik rea<K thi> plea as aiiitiuled. 

Ml!. liOltlsso.v. - III our view a formal plea to the jiuisdiction is Hot necessary nor 
a foi-ii»iil answer, we tlu)Uj,dit it onlv necessary for them to stiite their ohjeetion and for us 
to answei them. ' / ^ — -' 

••And the said Christopher lloMn.son, one of Her ^lajesty's Counsel learned in the 
law, wlio foi- ( )ur said Sovi-rtiu;u Lady tin- t^ueeii, in tlvis liehalf prosecute, to the 
.said ple.i of him the .said Louis liiel, liv liim aliove pleacled as aforesaid, for ( )ur said jHesent 
Sovereiuii Lady the (^Uieeii, saith : 

••That the sail jilea and the nii'itter therein contained are not sutticient in law to 
precluife the Court from their jurisdiction, and to liearaiid determine the oti'eiices charffed,' 
mentioned and .specified in the said charije as ahoxe cliariied upon him the said, Louis 
Kiel in and liy the said charge. 

•■Wherefore, for want of a proper and sutticient answer in this lielialf he prayeth judj;- 
iiient, and that the said IjOilis Kiel may answer in Court hereto Our said present 
Sovereign Lady the (Jueeii touchinif and conceriiiiii^ tin: premises aforesaid.. 

Answer handed to the clerk and fvled. 

His Hoxoii. — We have the plea to the jurisdiction and we have the demurrer. 
Mif. FrrzH.\Ti!i('K.'^ We join i.s.sue upon tlie demurrer. 

.Ml:. Jiscii'U lllcil.Miliso.N. - Now, if J under.stand the contention of Mr. Fitzpatrick, 
it is that this Act of is.so, .so far as it relates to the trial of criminal oti'eiices such as 
this, is ii/lnt c/rf.v. 

Mii. FiTZF.\riii('K. .My contention is that the Act of lf<f<0, in .so far as it relates to 
the trial of capital cases is ii/(ra (•//•ck. ' - ' 

'Sht. Jl'.sTICK KinniiDSON. -Well, as I cannot hold that, I must sustain the 
demurrer. » 



1 innst HOW call upon Louis Riel tcTjilead. , I 

Piisoiier jilfiuls not guilty. ' • 

>ln. .r<)rixsT<».— With tPio j)eniii.ssioii of tlio^couit 1 l>pj^ li-iivc to demur to the 
iiifoniiittioii.' It inrglit l)ft sutiiciiMit tf) dcniur </;•<- trjui.--, or liy oral cxfcptioii to tjie 
iiifoniiatioii : y(t,.;is the juToiiii^tioii laid hy tiie jirosfcutioii in itst'lf fonnal, and a de|)ar-' 
lure tVojii tli«" proii'duiv ln'i('tiT))t' tliis' couHj I think it mvessaiy to jiut fn a written 
general .demurrer as follows : ■ ' * . 

' C.\XAU.*. ' t. . ■ 

NortJi-\yt.st' Teriitories. ) 

TITE Ql'kKX -x LoriS Kl KL, now dnrv'.'d l.ef.in' His Honor H u-Ii Hichaitl-; 
son, Stipendiary Mai;istrate, and Meinv AieJcunc. l']s(Hiiie, a justice i)f tlie jieaee, and 
'a jury of six undPr the jii-ovision of sul)section .">, seetion 70, of the Norh-West Terri- 
tories Ai-t, l''^)^0, on the information of Alexiinder~Pu\ id Stewart. The said Louis 



Kiel, .in his own jiroj/er- person, >fonieth into Court, h*»e, and ha\ in-.; heard saW-~, 
inforinatjon rea(l,jsiiy(?th that the. said information and the matters therein contained ■ 
in tlje iiKiniuM' iUJ<l' foriri as de.sei'iiied and above stated and set forth, are not sufficient in 
md khat the said Lo'uis Kiel' is not liound liy law of the land to aiiswer the Siinie. , 
Wlieri'fore for want of suttioient information the said Louis Kiel jirays judj^ment. 



law, 



Ml{.l JusTKK Uk'iuhdsoS. I don t think there is anytliiiii; in tlie olijicfion of .Mr. 
JohnstoiJ and I ovi'rrule it. .\re thciv any other demurrers .' 

^Ik.J Osi.Klt. The clerk will ask the prisonei- x^liother he i.VL'uilty oi- not. 

Cl.KliK. Louis Hie), are yo\i uuilty or not guilty .' 

PmilONKli. — I have the honor to an.swer the Court I am not guilty. 

Mh. FrrzHAliilcK. - I have now. to state thitt I ha\e to ask' an adjournment till to- 
inorro^v ifuorning to enahle us to prepare some atHdavits we re(|uire to produce to show 
why we *re not in a |iosition to proceed with the trial at the piesent moment. 

< Hisl HoSoH. Jurois will understan<l that they arc to lie continually iii attendance, 
as al.so \\|itne.sses on Koth sides. 

Wejwill adjoutii till 10 o'cloik to nioirow. 
Coult then adjourned. • 



i'i:(.i.\.V .luly Jlst, ISS.'i. 
The clerk opened thf Court at 10 o'clock. 
H isfl I onor -M r. .hsiici; Ui<ii.\uns_o> : (.'all the jury. 
Tliiej clerk calls over the list of juror.s. . 

■ ' TlK^M.vs Pi;i:i,, one of the jurors. — Yrmr honor, on ac ■unit of luing postmaster and 
coiitractijr to carry the mails, I lieg to lie relieved. 

His Honoh. — I fear-l havi> no power to relieve you now, you were fairly drawn out 
of a large nundier of names, and 1 do not think that 1 can discharge you now. 

His Honoh. I have~noticed several jurors who were sunnnoned do not a|)peiir. Is 
it the desire that procee(l,ings should he instituted against them .' 

Mii UoiiiNsox. Not if we can get on without them. 

Mli Lk.mieux.- Mr. Watson, wrll you please swear the prisonei- to the.se ,irtida\its. 

The clerk swears tfie attidavits.l 

Mnj. (xHEKXSlliKLDS. Please vour honor, we renew the application made yesterday 
afternixin for an adjournment of this tiial. in the interval .since the a<ljournment we 






have liad tliici- atliilavits |)icpiirt'<), two of the st-iiior couiisel, ^Ipssrs Leuiieux and Fitz- 
patrick, and (•ue of tin- ac'-used. We hase our aj»i>lieatiou to^a large extent upon thpse 
attidavits. « • • 

His Honor.- Have th(>y l»'en shown to the counsel for the CrOwn f, ^ - v 

Mr. HolilxsoN. We have seen them just lately, we will look over tli^-ni ayain. 

Mr. < ;i(Ki;\slilKM>s leads the allidavits annexed herit. 4 .,.'.... 



.Ml!. .llsriCK KU'llAliDSox. The order will he that the trial stands a<ljourne(l,- that 
it proceeds |iereiniitorily on Tuesday niorninji next, the liSth instant, at ten o'clock.. 
Witli rej;ard to tin- .lurv, 1 dijn't feel inclined to keep theiii in attemlance, and 1 pi-opCse 
to cautiiin and waiJi them To return on Tuesday inorniii','. • ' ' , . 

To iiii: .liHVMKV. A'«)U i;entlemen in the audience who lia\e heen warned as' 
jurors, will understand from what has lieen said, that VdUr servi. e^ will not he retjuiit-d 
now till Tui'sday m-xt, at >eu o'clock a.m., anil you. are nt lilierty now to retuin to your 
homes if you l>lease. The fees that are usual for the.diudde journey, will lie paid l>y the 
( 'rown. Perhaps it is not neces.sary for me to make any remaiks touching,' you iier.soii- 
aliy, liut kiiowinif tiie fact that yon are called ujion to act as jurors' in this case, kindly 
think of tin- jMisition you occupy, antl neither talk to anyliody al«>ut th.' trial, nor allow 
any pers(ui to talk to you or lirin-,' you in conxcrsation. 

The Couit was aciordin.i;ly adj.ourned at 1 l.4."'i a.m. till the L'."<th July, at tin a. ni. 



.Ijfl'lini/s fl/ri/ lilt illlll'tlll /ill' lliljllilfllllll'ltf. I 

V\s\\>\: I TIIK (,>IKHN ,-,s. LoliS HIKL, 

North-West Teiritorieri. | cliar;;etl under the North-West Territories .\ct of IsSO, 

I, Lolls UlKi., tin- said accused, licini; duly swoin. do depose and siiy : 

That (iaiiriel |)umont and Michel I>unias, now nf Helena, in the I'nited States of 
Amei'icn. in the Territory of Montana, are e^^eutial and nuiterial witnesses to my 
defence. 

That Napoleon Naidt, of Turtle Mountain, in the I'nited States : the Rev. b'ii^ther 
Touse, of Sacit'-Cour ; the Kev. Father Andre, of St. Antoine ; the Hew Pather 
Fourmond, of St. f.aurent ; all in the North- West Territiuies of Canada ; S. Vanki<in;h- 
net and .\. .M. Ihiryes'-, of < )ttawa, in the I'roxinceof ( )ntaiio, arc also essential and 
material witnesses tor my ilc fence. 

That the said ,S. \'ankouijhaet is Deputy Minister of Indian .Vtlairs,' and the said 
Burj;ess is Ueputy Minister of tlu' lnteri(u-, lioth of wiiom are in their otticial capacity, 
tlie custodians of various otlicial documents, petitions and ri'presentations, made hy the 
Half-breeds of tluf North-West Territories to the (ioVernment of tin- Dominion of 
Canada, praying' for the re< I ress of their grievances, the refusal to jjrant which led to 
tlie legal agitation of the people to secure tlie redress of their wrongs. The said pajwrs, 
|>etitions and documents, as nearly as 1 can now descrihc them, are as follows: The 
report of .Mr. Pier(>e relating to the settlement of Prince Alhert ; a letter of the said 
Pierce, aildres.sed to tht^ .Minister of the Interior, of date, the ITtli of .lanuarv, lf»."'4. .V ' 
letter from Mi-. Dex ille, addressed to the i)eputy Minister of the Interior, of date, 7tli 
Feliruary, ISS4. .V letter from Father ISerginville, addressed to Capt. Deville, of date, 
19th January, rsS4. .\. petition l>y the inhaliitants of St. Louis-de-Langevin, for- 
warded to Sir John .V. .Macdonald, alxait the lOtli Novemher, ISS.}. .\ letter from tlie 
Liind CommissicHiner, .Mr. Pieiei'. dated, 1 4th Septemlier, ISS:!. .V let t.-r from Fathers 
Leduc and Malony, addressetl to the Hon. D. L. .Macpher.son, acting .Minister of the 
Interior. A pf-tition from the si'ttlers of Prince Albej:t, in the North-West Territories, ■ 



:/ 



■ » 



•forWrded durinn; the wiiitfr of 1H.S2 and lt<i>*;{, uiul si;,'iiwl lij- ii hirgi- iuiial>er of said 
settlwrs. A iietitioii from St. Antoine dc-Padouf, iiddrcssed to Sir- Joliii A- Macdonald, 
a«>3Ii)iist('r of the Interior, of date, tlie 14th Si-ptcinl)cr, 1S.S2. A |i<'tition from (Jahriel 
-t>ui)iif>nt and otliers, of the 4th St'|)teml)er, 1><.S4, a(hlr('ssed to the Ili^ht Hon. 'Sir John 
Af^|acdonahl, as Minister of the Interior. A petition jirt-.sented liy the Ke\ . Father 
I Andj'e 1» tlie. Lieutenant (iovernor in Council, in tlic month of June, ISSl. A petition 
. presented liv thi' inhahitants of Prince Albeit to tjie Ministi'r of the Interior. .V letter 
from Land Ai,'ent Duck, dated the L'Uli of XovenilM-r, ISJS, addiessed tii the Minister of 
tlie ]ut4'rior. A petition hy the French-Canadians and llalf-Krceds o^ I'rinie Alliert 
jiresented hy Mr. Laird to the (ioveiinnenl (if tlie Itondnion of Canaifa. A rcsulutioii 
j>assed liy these settlers of St. Ijiui'ent of the 1st of Feliruary, l^'7>'', fiHwarded to th(^ 
< Jo.vf rnnient of the JJominion of Canada. \ [lefition pi-esented l.y the t,|u'A)ipelle Half- 
fireefls in Aujfust'or Sei)tend>er, lt<M, to Sir John A. Macilonald, as .Minister of the. 
Tnterior. A resolution. o"f the Cchincil of the North-\^'e^t Territorii>. nt tlu' ditcof "Jnd 
Au-ijust, 1S7S. ' * 

That I liave reason to lu'liexe, and do M'rily liilie\c. and I am iMfoiiucd on relialile 
.lutlority, fhat all of the afori'iiientioned documents wei'e duly forwardeil to llie (ioverii- 
nient of ( 'anada, and aie now in the po.s.sc.s>ion of the \arious |)c|i;iiMjiientn, ami can 1m 
jiroi 

and 
ifor i 

' .ief( 



us'ed l>y the alio\ cnamed witnc-.ssc-v 

That all the alio\ I'liamcrl witnesses :ire material anil I's.sential to nii' in my defence, 
will prove that the a,;,'itation in the North W'l-^t Teri-itorie-, wa> eonstitutioiiul .ind 
lie rijihts of the people in said North W'e.sT. 

That without the saiil witni'.sses liein!.: heard in Cmnt, I cannot make a jirnpei 
(Ince to the present chaiLie and will lie ili'|irived of justice. 
I That 1 lia\c no means withwhicli to di-fray the expenses of lie- >aid «iln.-.se., and 
to jlrocure their attendance here in ('ourt or to ret, tin counsel. 

Tliat unless tlie (iovernineiit of this country (M- this llonoraMi- ( 'nuii d.pr.ivide 
means witli which to .secure tiie altendam'e of the aliove named wilncsscs. Iiclore tliis 
Coi rt, it i.s es.sential to my d<-fenee that the various pa)H'rs, writin;,'s and docaiments 
takpii from me at the timi- of my surrender to (ieneial Middleton and taken liy him and 
orticers froiH my liouse sul).sei|iiently should lie placed in the hands of my coiiiisel for 
e.vaminatioi' and consideration, pi'eylous to lieiiii,' put U|iiin my trial. 
That it is im)iossiljle forTiie to stale the exact description of the said papers, writ- 
in.''s and documents,. as the exciteiuent under whiili I was lalioiliii; duriii;; the time of 



th. 



his 
theSi 



iliil ]ire\ ioiis thereto, render it impossjiile for 



my s«iriender anil some days sulisei|ueijtl 

me to de.-?)_riln tli^ said documents. . • ■ ' ' 

*• That' I lii'licM' amoni; the s'aid document,s is a cerlilicate of the Coiiris of ihe I'liited 

States of .\merica that I was duly naturalized as a citizen of the I'niled States, which 1 

Wjiii, hut if the .said ceittlicate is not aliionu the said |iapers, it is essential to niy defence 

that J should lie iri\ ell an op|)oi;tunity of olitaininu the said ceititicatt- l>y means of wiiich' 
, I can estalilish that, at the time of the cohikiii-ssioii of the alleued ollences, 1 was a citi/eii 
'<if the Ciiitrd States of America, and was not a ISritish snliject,- as ciiarjfed in the sjlid 

information. ' • ' 

' That in order to jiroperly prepare for my di^fenci- I 

ii)(>ntli, and 1 ha\ e signed. 
" .; (Siuiieil), ■ 



niie al li 



ilelav of one 



LuL|.«i JJIKL 



i^vorii and ackiiow ledjied before me this 
' H'lst dayof July A. I). ISS."). at lle- 
_Uiiiui, in the North-West Territories. 



<Sig«ed), 



DIXIK WATSON. <■/.,■;,: 



:■{ 



*A 



V .,1 vv'^^/t*^' •. • ! THK QUEKN' <•«. LOt'IS KIEL. 
.\ortli-\N est leni tones, j ^ 



^-^ 



KiiAM.ois Xavikk r^KMiicrx, liiu-i-ister, oiif of the touimel of Louis Uifl, the accused, 
iii'iuic itiily swoni, (l<'|io.si-tli and .says ; ■ 

That ill thf toiirsi' of hist Juiii-, towards tlic end of tin- month, he was rptaiued l>y 
piisoiis intcicstcd on lii-lialf of tlic an-usfd to luah'rtakt' his detVucc. 

That pi-isons wiTi' in>tiiuted tf> i"iu.-.c to l>f hrouylit to Rej;ina essfutial and neces- ■ .^ 
siii-y: witiifsscs in'tl(c <hfi-nii' of Louis Hicl, and helievcd to lie such liv tlic dciioncnt. 

TJiMt the witnesses aliove referred to are Doctor Francois Ivoy, of (Juehec, Doctor 
< lark, of 'i'oronto, and Doctor A. \'alh-e,' of (^ueliec. 

That the de|ionent verily heliexes tliat tlie said witnesses would hax'e reacheil Kejjina 
I'y this time, hut hy I'eason of misajnirehension anil circumstances lieyond control, the 
-aid witnesses Irixi' failed or lia\e not lieen alile to be jireseut in orderVo give their " 

■ •\ idence. * 

That from hi- e\|ii-iicnee a- a counsel and advocate lie swears that tlie said Divs. 
l!oy,N'all<e and Clark are iiece-sary, material and indispensable witnesses for tht dM'ence 
of theai ctised, and n'oreoviT, are the sole witnesses capable of Jiri)\ inj,' certain important 
facts relatioL' to the said defence. 

That the deponent \eriiy beliex es that if a (hday of one inonth is LJianted he can 
procnri- tin- saiil witnesses .by jjoinu liimself to tjuebec , and Toronto, and that, at 
'he expir.ition of the said <li'lay, the above-tiatned witnesses will be present at .the Cmrt 
'. to !_'iM- e\ idem-e in fa\ cir of the airU-eil. ■ . . 

' And the di-p.ineht lias signed. ■ • 

^wuril bi-foie Mie. at l!.-;;il,;i. tlli, ( 
L'Ist dav of .lilU. lSS"i. I 



(Siiilied), 



F. .X. LK-MIKIX. 



(JsiUIUll », 



DIXli; WATSON. fV.-X. 



V I u-^^^'I'^ • ■ ' Tin: i,M KK.N ..V. LdllS RIKL. ' 

Nmtli West lerritories. i ' . ■ . .- ■ . 

/• tin trial undiM sHb-ictioii "i of jSectioii 7<) fif the North- West Territories' Act of 
l."^SH, before their lioiim-, llunh Kichafdson, J^. M.,' and Henry LeJeuiie, J. P., and a- 
■.liiry of si\. ' . . 

■I. ( 'hiirle- l''it/.patrick. of the city of Quebec, Oiu' Of the counsel of the above-iialned 
' Louis Itiel, make oath and say : , ' " 

1. 1 uas n-laiiieil fitr the defence of the s.aid Lijuis Kiel in the month of June last 
passed, ai d immediately tlieieafter put myself in communication with my -aid client 
and others, with the view of .obtaining,' such information as would enable me to' set up 
such defence as in the intere.st of my said client would be most beueHcial. 

-. < »wini; to the distance of (Quebec ivjinti uly client, it was not until the iOth day 
• if the said month of June I was instructed by tht/accused, and then oidy partially. 

;i. Since the receipt of tlie .said instruction, I have been dilit(ently endeavoi'inj,' to , 
obtain the atteiulance 'of the witnesses for the accused, but as he,_the accused, is jt man 
of little or no means, and had to rai.se funds for his defence through his friends in tlie 
I'rovince of Quebec, it was an utter impossifiility to obtain their attendance in tiine-ror 
his trial. 

4. 1 have been instruited since my arrival in Regina, that the requisite funds have 

. ^-' 

\ 



10 



been raised to secure tlie attendance of the saitl witnesses for tlie defence, wlio are mate- 
rial and necessary, and without whose evidence we cannot proceed to ti-ial. 

\/i4.i^j), I y i S- * Some qi tlie facts intended to be proved by sucli witnesses, are tliat the accused 
j • ', fcr sevei-al years was insane, and liad to be conti^ied in a lunatic asylum in the Province 
Vn^^Kifj'^i'^ Quebec, and would get deranged ; also, the circumstances under which the accuse(l 
left his home in Montana, and came to this country, u-t the solicitations of his friends, 
in the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five ; the nature of the agitation 
in the North- West, and the constant advice given by the accused to limit the agitation to i 
constitutional means and, peaceful measures ; the desire expressed by the accused to - 
leave the country in tite month of February last passed, and the ()bjecti<ins of the 
people to his returning to Montana aforesaid ; that the alleged rebellioif^is connii(nue<l 
./ 'and conducted under the direction of a council of fourteen persons, of which council the 
' prisoner was not a member ; and that he did not participate in any <'iigageiiieiit or 
commit or countena ce any overt act of treason. 

0. These facts can be proved by (iabriel J>uiiioiit, Michel l)uinas, Napoleon Naull, 
"^ Dr. Roy! of Quebec, Dr. Clark, of Toronto, and J)r. Valh'-e, of Quebec, whose attendance 
at the trial I verily ,belie»'e can be secured, if sutticient time for that purpose is granted 
to the defence. , ^ » 

- • ■ \J (.Signed), . . - - 

• C. FITZPATKIC'K. 
"•■ Sworii'before me, at Reginit, this | . • * 



LMstday of July, ISS.-i. 
( Signed ),^ 



I 



1)1X11-: \V.\TS()X, Cl^rh: 



\ ■ -^ ^ .■ ■ ' — . ■ ■ 

I ■ '• ' . Rk(iixa, tuesday, July, the 'If^ih, 18!S."». 

The Court met at ten o'clock a.m. 

MvK. Osi.Elt opened the ease to the Jury. '':.-. ' ^ 

The witiies.ses were then called as follows: ' : 

Dr. John H. WiLLoucnnv, sworn, examined by Mi'. l*i>binson. ■ ,_,^ 

^ Q. YoU are a -medical man ? — .\. Yes. 

Q. Where are you practising ?- A. At Saskatoon. 

Q. How long there \ — A. I ha\e been there since two years last May. 
^Q. How far is Saskatoon from Batoclie ? A. About .50 miles. 

Q. Do you remember going to ISatoche about the ItStli March last .' A. I do. 

Q. Did you go alone? — A. No, I was accom|)anied by 

Q. By whom ? — A. A half-breed named Norbert Welsh. 

Q. And at wiiat house did you go to stop wheii you got to Batoclie ? -A. I stcq.p<-d 
with George KeVr. 

Q. Is that the Kerr Bi-others ? — A. Yes, at their store. 

Q.- Did you hear anything of any anticipated difficulty ? A. I <lid. 

Q. Where ? — A. I heard it at Mr. Kerr's store. 

• Q. How li'rtig did you remain at Batoclie then ? — A. TwotM)'s.- 

Q. You went on the ICth, when did you leave it?-— A. 1 remained over the 17th 
and left upon the 18th. 



\- 



11 



/ 



Q. Did you see any one on the 17tli, did you hear anything then of any disturbance 
anticipated, did you hear any rumour of possible difficulties ? — A. I did hear rumors. 

Q. When you left Batoche/wTiom did you go with? — A. I left with Mr. Welsh 
and Mr. Macintosh. 

Q. Had Welsh any object in view, did he desire to see any one from Batoche? — A. . 
We were lea\ing Batoche for Saskatoon. 

Q. You were with Welsh ?—x\. Yes. 

Q. Was lie desirous to see any one, as far as he explainetl to you .' — A. He \<-as 
desirous of seeing Riel. 

Q. Did you go v ith liini for that purpose ? — A. T did. 

Q. Where did lie e.vpect to tind Rit-l then ? — A. I hardly know where he e.\i>ected 
to find him, he was informed on th» road by Gabriel Dumont as to Kiel's whereabouts. 

Q. Did you find Riel ?— A. Yes. ^ 

Q. Where '! - A. At tlie house of a Half-breed nrtnied Hocheleau. 

Q. What is his christian name? — A. I don't reiuend<er. 

Q. How far south of Batoche was that ? A. Six or .se\ eu iiiiU'S. 

Q. Did you know Kiel at that time ? — A. I had inet him before. 

Q. How long before ? — A. About four months. 

Q. About the D;^cend)er or January before ? — A. Yes, in November, -I believe. 

Q. Whereabouts f — A. I met liim at the housi' of Moise Ouellette.- 

Q. Had you been introduced and spoken to him then ? A. I had spoken to him 
then. 4 

Q. You knew jiim by siglit .' -A. Yes. - 

Q. When you met him at Rocheleau's, did he say anything to you .'—A. He did; 

Q. Wiiat did he say ?--A. Well, he told iw the time had- come for the Half-l>ree<ls 
to a.ssert their rights. • 

Q. Do you Tnean that was the first thing or almost the first thing he said to you, 
did he ask you any (juestion at all^ — A. When' I entered the house, I spoke to him. I 
sat opjiosite to liim, and very little was said for a few moments. Presently, he got up 'T 
and j)as(jed in front of me, and lie suddenly stopi)ed and turned to me and said ; The time 
has come wlien it would have been well for a man to haye been good or to lia\e led 'a \^ 
good lif6. ' . • , 

Q. Did he say anymore then ? — A. I replied to that. 

Q. What did you say, do you remember ? — A. I cannot remember what I did say, . 
something to the effect it would be better for a man to always lead a good life and be 
prepared for any emergency. 

Q. What took place next % — A. Just at that time a large crowd of men drove up 
to the door of Roclieleau's house. _ , . ' ' 

Q. How many do you think ? — A. I would judge about CO or 70. 

g. Were tliey Half-breeds ?— A. Half-breeds. 

Q. Were they armed ? -A. They were. 

Q. All armed, as tir as you observed ? — A. No, there were some who were not 
armed. 



f 



12 



c/ 



ii. Were the iiiiijority luiiK-d ,' A. Tlie majority were armed, ;1 only remember 
seeing one who was not armed. 1- 

Q. What were the majority armed with? — A. The niajority, I |l>elieve, had shot 
guns, appeared to nie to be shot guns. They were outside :aud I was iti tlie house. 

Q. This would liave Iteeu on tlie 17th Mareh, if I understand it li;,'htly ? A. The 
l.'^tlk It was on a Wednesday, I Relieve, the IStli. , 

Q. When tlii.-i iiowd eanie, did the jirisoner say anythinj; to you .' A. It was just 
as they drove up he addressed me. He then said tlie Half breeds (he and his peojile, I 
lielieve, he put it) intended to strike a blow to gain their riglits. . 

Q. Did you make any answer .' -A. Ye.s, I replied there were ditterent ways to 
giiin their rights, the white settlers took a difl'eient way in having their grievances 
settled. He replied no one knew better than lie did as to the grievances of thtij .settlers. 
And he said : f and my people have time and time again jiotitioneil the ( !(»verilment to 
rtdress our grievances, and he said : The only answer we received each time han been an 
increase of jiplice. /^ j 

^ I Q. He said they had time and time again petitioned the Uovernment foB -i*flre.ss, 
and the only answer they reeei\ed each time wius an increa.se of the police ? — Ai Yes. 

Q. What next did he say? — A, He said ; Now T have my jmlijc-, referrii|ig to the 
uieii at the- door. '- ; 

■'. Q. Those fiO or TD men .' -A. Yes. He pointed to them and he said : You .'<ee now 
have my poli^L-e. In one'week tjiat little (iovernmeut police will be wijied out of 



I 



existenc 



my poliVe. 
ce.' ■ , \_^^ 



\~n 



Q. Well, what next? .\. .] believe, I .said, if he intended to attack tlie jiolice or 
Use a rebellion, they should look after the jirotection of the settler.s, there being no ill 
wdl among the.,jiet tiers towards the Half-breeds. . ; 

Q. W'Imt next f A. He told me i was from Saskatoon, and as a settler from 
Saskatoon, t liad no light to speak for the welfare of the settlers, and charged the 
.settlers at Saskat<><^>n with having ottered to aid the mounted police, jit I'attleford, to put 
.<lo\vn an Indian j-ising last autumn. 

Q. ll^'pK'at that.— ^A. Hi- said that 1, as a citizen of Saskatoon, had ito right to ask 
jjrotection, liecause... ■ r ■ . 

Q. Because the people of Saskatoon had aideil the police ? -A. He said tliPy ofl'ered 
iii»-n tp kUl the Indians unil Half-breeds. 

, Q. That Was the n/ason wily lie said the settlei's of Saskatoon liad no rig|it to pro- 
tection ? — A. He said : We will now show Saskatoon or the people of Sa.skatoOii who will 
do the killint,'. 



/ 



Q. Oo.oir. — A. He made a stiitement as to my kno^ledgi- of his rebellibn, that is 
of the former reliellion in 1H70, and he said that lie was an American citizen living in 
Montana, and that tlie Half-in-eeds had sent- a deputation there to liring liiiii to this 
country.^ . _ ^ ■ . i 

I ■■ -Q. Wha^ else ? -A. That in asking him to come they li-.id told their pjans, and 
•that he had replied to them to tlier ert'ect that their plans were useless, 

I Q. Did he say \vhat the ])lans were ] — A. No, I believe not, but that he had told 
' them _that he had plans, ami. that if they would _assi.st him to curry out those plans he 
would go with them. 

j .Q.- Did he tell you what those plans were ? -A. Yes, he did. . v 

I Q. What. were they ?— A. ..He said the time had now come when those pla^is were 
.liiature, that his prpdumation \^^ls at Pembina, and tliat aa. soon as he struck the fifst 



lilow liere, tliat prnclaniation would go fortli, aiul lie was to lo? joined l>v Half-bi-eeds amr ■ 
Indians and tliat the United States was at liis baik. 

Q. Did lie tell you anytliini; more ? -A. He said that kuowin;^ him and his \tast 
history, I niijjht know that he nieiuit what he saiil. 

Q. Anythinj,' else ? — -A. He said that the time had lonie now when he was to rule / 
this country or perish in the atteiiipt. 

Q. (Jo on. —A. We had a Ion;; conversation then as to the rights of the Halt'-l>n!«*ds ' 
and lie laid out his plans as to the ;;(>vernment of the eountry. ' ! 

Q. What did he say as to the government of tlie country ! A. Thev were, to have 
a new goveirnnient in tlie N'ortli-West. It was to Ke composed ofdwl fearing men, they 
would have.no .such parliament as the house at < )ttawa. ' 

Q. Anythii\g else ? -.\. Then he stated how he intended to divide the countr%' iljito 
.seven portions. ' 

Q. In what nianwer .' .V. It was divided into seven portions hut as to who were 
to have the seven, I caftuot say. - 

Q. You mean to say you cannnr say how these seven weie to he apportionatecl f-^ 
■A. Yes, he mentioned |!a\arians, Poles, Italians, (Jermans, Irish. .There was to he a. 
new Ireland in the Xortli We.st. 

y. An,vthing more ? Did he say anylliiiii; ahoiit himself or his own plans ? A. I 
recollect nothing further at the jire.sent time. 

Q. You say he referred to the previous veliellion of 1S70, what did he .say in regard ) 
■ io that '! — A. He referred to that and he said that that rebellion, the rebellion of tifteen ^ 
jrears'ago, would not be a patch n]H>n this one. 

Q. Did lie .say anything further with regard to that ! -A. He did ; he .spoke of the 
luiinber that had Ix'en killed in that rebellion. 

Q. What did he say as to that ? — A. I cannot state as to what he Sivid, hnt it was 
.'to the etlect that this rebellion was to be of far gn^atcr e.vtent than the former. 

Q. Did he speak to th(^ men who were there, or they to hiin when you were there ! 
— Ai There were several men there when the cutter drove up to the door. The majority 
of thein st<iye<l outside in the sleighs and some of them came in. 

Q. Yes 1 — A. They spoke in French which I did. not understand \ery well, but I 
understood him to tell them to go down to Champagne's house, and I understood him to 
be sending them there : most of the men then drove of!" and a few sta.yed behind. 

Q. You cannot .siiy what they asked him as your know ledge of frencli does not • 
enable you to repeat the (piestion they asked him 1 — A. No, I cannot say. /~' 

Q. Now what did you do then ? Which le?t first, you or he ?— ^A. We had dinner. 

Q. This conversation took place before dinner, or during dinner'f — A. Partly before, 
during and after dinner. 

Q. You had dinner and what took place ne.\t ? — A. Riel prepared to go then to follow 
the others. 

Q. Well, what next 1 — A. .tVs he was leaving he asked me, he stated personally he 
had no ill feeling towards me, but tliat I was a Canadian, but he put it in this w^ay : as a 
Canadian I was a part of the Canadian Government, and in our hearts there could be no 
friendship towards each other. 

Q. ^Vell, did you go before or after him t — A. He left before me. 

Q. Did he say where he was going 1 — A. No, he did not. 

Q. What did you do ? — A. I left immediately after he did and went on towards 
.Clark's Crossing at the telegraph oi&ce. 



/, 



14 



Q. For wliat puriK)se ? — A. To make known what I had heard. -': 

Q. To whom ? — A. My iiiteutiou was to connnunicnte with Rej^ina, but when I {,'ot 
to Claries Crossini', the wire was down between Clark's (^'rossin;^ and Qu'Appelle. I 

* Q. How far was it from Clark s (Jrossin;; tliat you had taken dinner ?— A. Soniet1iin<; 

over 40 miles. ^ 1 >: 

Q. Was that oi»,yoiir way to Saskatoon ? A. It was. ~ i 

Q. Then you intended to communicate witli Regina, but wlien you got to Clark's 
Cl'ossing the telegraph was down ? — A. Yes. .' 

\ Q. What did you do ?-~'A. The only communication was with Hattleford, and' I 
inf<>rnied Col. Morris. .,.._ 

Q. Who is Coi. Morrts ? — A. He was in charge of the police at Battleford at that, 
time. f . 

Q. You informed him of what you had heard 1 — A- Yes.i. 1 

Q. What was Mr. Welsh <lott»j*ltn this time ? Was he present at your conversation 
with Riel 1 A. He w^is. 

Q. Did he, in Kiel's presence, tollyou uaything or not ? — A. .No, I lielieve not. 
Q. Have you told me your whole conversation with Riel lis far as you remember ? ' 
— A. I remember one point in regard to t)rangeisiii. 

Q.^ What was that?— A. As Riel was leaving he expres.sed liti opinion, he .stilted tliey 
■would have no oraugeism in the ?ft)i4ji-\Vest. I said I hoped by orangeism he did not 
mean 'Protestanti.sm. He turnfed excitedly and said he was giiid 1 liad mentioned it, 
that he certainly understowl the dirterence between Protestantism and orangeism, and he 
then spoke of the ditterent reHgions and l>eliet's and illustrated it by the example of a 
tree — the triM' church was the large branch of the tree, and the others, as they departed 
from it gtit weaker, up toj^lu* top of the tree. 

-Q.- He illustrated his ideas of the different religious bodies in that way ? Have you told 
nie all you can reuiember of your conversation with him ? Whilst speaking of sending the 
telegram bust fall, ortei'ing to aid the police. . . . — ..V. Sending which telegram 't He stated 
the Saskatoon jieople that he bad been furnished with a copy of the telegram sent by 
the Saskato<in j)e(>ple to ISattlefoid last fall, otiering to kill oil' the llalf-breiHls and 
Indians, and that, in consei|uenci', the Saskatoon pcopje had no right to iV'k for tuiy pro- 
tection ; and that was not the only telegram thiv had .sent, that about 11 days before, I 
think, he .said that they had again made such an olier. [ mean that the people of Saskatoon 
had again niaile such an otter. 

— Q. Now is there e\erytliing el.se he said to yoii that you can remember, or hive you 
told nre everything ? A. I believe I have told you everything. ' , ■;- ; 

Q. You went back to Clark's (Jrossing, iuid conniiitnicatid what you; had h^ard, to 
Col. Morris, and from that time onwards, where were you .' — .\ I was at {Saskatoon and 
C'jurk's Cros.sing. . ' { 

|Q. Then, do you know anything more of youi- ofrned knowledge of ttiel, i4 l-onuec- 
tioiil with, this rebellion. T mean not what you ha\e beard ? -A. No, I !knov" nothing 
further. ■ ' ■ 

-E.xamined by Mr. Fitzp.\ti!k:k. j ; 

Q. . If I mistake not, you said you saw Riel for the tirst time, about the' month 
of November, l^!^<^2 — A. About November. 

Q. Didjifiiu see hiiii for any length of time then ?— A. I did not. " '.■ 

I Q. JDid you — you never saw him again till the 17th of March, 1865?— A. I 

•JjelifeVe not. 



15 i^^ ' ■ . . 

Q. During; tlmt interval of time, yon are aware tliere was an agitation going on 
tJirougliout that sci-tldn of conntry ] A. I was {>erfectly well aware of it. 

Q. The first time you ever lieard of any reference to an appeal to arms in cojv 
with this aijitation, was during tliis interview, in March last, with Kiel ? — Ar^hat was 
til.' first I heard. 

^l- Kiel was iiii^irmed on that occasion >, —A. He was. 

«J. What ha-il he with him .' A. As lii>4j>ft the house 

Q. I am speaking of tlie time you had th(! conversation in the house. Was he 
armed tlien ? — A. He was not arme<l at that time. 

1 Q. VVlien you first liegau to talk witli Kiel, he first mentioned to you the fact tliat 

I it now became m-cessary for all men to reflect that it was a good thing to live well? — 
■ A. That was the first remark. 

) Q. Shoi'tly after he made that remark he placed up and down the floor? A. That 

WHS liefore he made the remark. 

<^. Then, he liegan telling you ahout his intention to subdivide these provinces into 
sexcn '. A. He <lid not. 

<^. lie told you lie intended giving the province of Quel)ec to the Pru.ssians or 
"i ilermans.' A. He did not. 

I . t^. Oid he .say anytliing as to the manner he was going to divide, did he refer to the 

1 Itiivarians, Hungsfrians and other jieoples ?--A. He did. 

[ (^. What did he say he was goinj; to do with tliese people ? — A. They were going to 

/ Jissist him in thi' lelnlliKU. liefore this war was ovei-, and that they would have their- 
|Mirtion of the country. 

1<^. \\\ eimntry what did he allude to? A. The North West Territories. 
<4>. Exclu.--ively .' A. .\s 1 undeistood it. 

I tj. Woiilil vfiu now indicate to. lis the diflerent peoples he e\pected to assist liim ! — 

) A. The Irish nf the I'liitcd State>, the (iermans, the Italians, Bavarians and Poles, and 
. liernwTrraiid Inlanil. 

<^>. Wf lia\e had (iermanyand Ireland twice? — A. Well, he put jt twice. He put 
the Irish and (Jermaiis of the I'nited States, then Germany itself was to come into line. 

i i). The l>a\aiiaiis also .'- A. Yes. 

!"• l^. The lliiiii;aiiaiis .' -A. I doni know. I don't Uelieve he said anything as to the 

' Hungarians. 

I (^>. The I'olr.-, did he intend to ;;i\c them a diance too? — A. He did. 

<>. He alsii stated to you he was ijiviiig the .lews a jioition of the province ? — A. 
I Xot that 1 renu-mlier, lie <lid not nieiitidn them while I was there. j 

<.,>. Did he e.\plain to you, at that time, as to what progress he had ijiade towards 
, coin|ileting iiegotiirtions he had had with these peoples for their assistance? — A. He did 
I not. 

(j). You did not think it necessary to ask how he intended to carry out this agree- 
ment, or if he liad made any endeavors to have an understanding ahout tliis ? — A. I did. 

<^>. What did he say about this ? A. I tried to find from him his plans, 'o get what 
information I could, and he seemed unwilling, he took good care to unfold none of his 
plans. /^ ' *• 

Q. Y'ou said he had unfolded his plans as to sulxlividing the province 1 — A. Y'es. 

Q. Did you then ask hinj if had entered into negotiations with these different 
peoples, in order to get their assistance 1 — A. No, I did not ask him that. 



'^ 



Hi 

Q. You'did not ask liiiii how he p.\j)ectp<l to get thcso people into tlio rountr\ 
either, did you ? — A. No, I did not. , 

Q. 'Don't you think that would have lieen a very necesjsary iiuestioii, to put in order 
t3 ,a;et at the hottoni of his plans ? — A. I believe not. 

Q. You thauyht all liis plans were very reasonal)lf and acfcptable .' -.\. I had my 
own opiiiion regarding them. 

Q. What is that o|)inio^, he good enough to let lis know it? ^ly opinion at that 
time was that that was about the last that would be heard of H. 

Q. You never had heard anything of these plans liefore ? — A. From him i 

Q. From liim or aiiyone else ? — A. Nothing of tliat kind with regard to this 
country. 

Q. In regard to the plan he submitted to you, did you evei- hear ot su^li a plan 
before ?■ — A. No,. I never did. / ' ■. 

Q. Did it stike you as being at all peculiar I \. Katlier a little. 

Q. When he spoke to you on religious subjects, did yon understand liiin to tell ymi 
tliaf, in his religion, Christ was the foundation, and lepiesented the trunk of the tree, and 
the different religions might be considered as representing the lu-am-lies <if the ti'ee ! -• 
, A. I did. \ ■ 

., Q. Did he .'^y what position he occupied with reftienee to the tiunk or; with 
reference to Christ ? — A. He stated his Church was the strongi'st branch. r 

Q. During all this tiuis, during all this conversation, I think you stated Mr. Welsli 
was present, was he riot ?— A. He was. 

Q. Where is ilr. Welsh now ? — A. I believe he is at Fort (Ju'.\pj>elle. 

Q.. That is about 40 miles from here? — A. About 50 miles. 

Q. When you .said Mr. lliel explained, liis religion was the strDUgest branch, diil In- 
say what liis religif)n was ? — A. He did, he. said the Roman Catholic Church. 

Q. He did not say anything fui-ther than that about his religion ? — A. No.. > 

Q. Did he speak anything about the Pope ? — A. No» 1 believe not. Nothing that J 
can remember. .v 

Q. You don't remember anything further of this conversatiq^i with Riel, except what 
you have stated ?^A. I remember nothing further. 

Q. Of course, the plans he unfolded to you about the con(|uest^)f the North-'West, 
did not strike you as anything extraordinary |or a man in his position to assert ] — A. It 
did certainly. , 

Q. It appeared to you a very rational proposition 1 — A. No, it did iot. 

E.xamined by Mr. Robinson. 

Q. You said Riel was not armed in the house, did 30U .see him arnuCl at all ? — A. I 
saw him armed as he drove off from the liou.se, he was supplied with a gub as he got inta 
,the sleigh. ' ' ' y 

Q. Do j'ou know by whom he was supplied with a gun? — A, No, I don't know. I 
could not say by whoni it. was given him. 



-> 



I 



TiiOM.\s Mackay, sworn, examined by Mr. Robinson. 

Q. Mr. Mackay, where do you live ? — A. Prince Albert. 

Q. You were born in this country ? — A. Yes. 

j Q. How long have you lived in Prince Albert 1 — A. I have been in Prince Albert 
'district since July, 1873. f 



17 

Q. You reiueiiiluT, of course, the disturlwince which took jilace in March last?- — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Can you tell me when you first heard of that and when you first took any' part 
in conset|uence of it'! — A. 1 had heard of tlie ajjitation for some time in the early part of 
March, 1 heard that the jirisoiier was inciting tlie Half-breeds tp take up arms. 

y. Well?- -A. On the morning of the liOtli, Captain Motfatt and Captain Moore 
came to my house, between two or thretj. o'clock in the moniins;, and they brought a lettei' 
fro^n Major Crozier, stating that he had been informed on good authority that the French, 
under tln^ leadership of the prisoner, luul risen and taken\Mr. Lash and some other 
prisoners, and had robbed the stores of ^^'alters and Daker and Kerr Brothers. He also, 
in the same conimunii. .ion, asked for a detachment of some GO to 70 volunteers to go up 
' to reinforce the police, at Fort Carlton. 

' Q. Well .' — A. I went down to t!ie town and went to a numl>er of the people there 

and told them what we had heard, and asked them to meet us, in James Elliott's rooms, iu 
town. We met there and decided — we thought that we could not spare the number/pf 
men, as we had to look aftei' the town and our families. — We went out with something 
like 40 men. Captain Moore enrolled 40 men, and we started about twa o'clock in the 
afternoon of that day. 

Q. For what place ■' — .-V. Fort Carlton. 

y. How far was Fort Carlton from Prince Albert?- — A. Between 40 and .^O miles. 

I,). When did you get to Carlton N- A. We arrived to Carlton between ten and 
elven that uight. 

g. What day was that ?— A. The 20th. , / ' 

Q. Fort Carlton was then held liy a force of Mounted Police, under Major Crozier .' 
—A. "Yes. 

-^ Q. You reported to him 1 — A. Yes, reported to him. 

Q. Hill you remain there that night? — A. When I arrived there, I found Mr. 
Mitchell, from 'i)uck Lake, was at Fort Carlton. He had a letter from Mr. Kiel, I 
lielieve. 'i'lie letter, I think, was regarding the surrender of Fort Carlton.- 1 did- not see 
'■* When 1 left Prince .Vlbert, I had decided to go on to Batoche, where the rebels had 

ide their headiiuarters. When I found Mitchell there, he asked me to go along with 

m, that I might be of some usi>. 

y. For what purpose , did you decide to go to Batoche? — A. To seeTf^l could point 
out to them the danger they were getting into in taking up arms. 1 knew a great many 
of them were ignoi*a^it and did not know what they wei-e dping, anil I thought I might 
induce them to dispense. I went to see if 1 could be of any use in preventing any outrage. 
An hour after I got there, I went to Duck Lake,and we found two or three of Kiel's men 
there, Joseph and Baptiste Arcand. They had come from Batoche to meet Mr. Mitchell. 
I had n long conversation with them, and I invited them and tried to induce them to 
drop the movement. I told them at the same time I had enrolled as a volunteer, that I 
was one of the tirst to put my name down as a volunteer, and at the same time I told 
them that any thing they should say, 1 should report to the Conniianding Officer, and' if 
there was anything they did not wish me to hear, they should prepare .themselves 
accordingly. After an hour or two of con\ersation witli them, they went on to report at 
their head ijuarters, that I was coming with Mr. ^Mitchell. 

Q. They went before you to report that you were coming-'l — A. Y'es. 

Q. Wliat took place ? — A. We arrived at the river about eight or nine o'clock in the 
' nioniing. 

Q. You had travelled all night ? — A. Yes. 

, Q. You did not arrive that night ? — A. No ; when we got to the fiver I found a 



, I . ■ 18 

number of .arinetl men around Walter A- Baker's store. A eentrv hailed us and took us 
to the guard. 

Q. How many armed men did you find?— A. Twohe or fifteen- out.side. Tliere were 
.some more in the store, ■ . 

' -vQ. They took you to the f,'uard ?— A. Tliere was a sentry ahout fifteen to twenty 

%.. yards on this side of the store. 

Q. Did he stop you ? — A, He stof)ped us and took us on. 

. Q. I)id you know his name? — A. No. 

i ' Q. AVhei-e did lu' lake you to ? — A. To tlie j,'uard tiiat was stationed around Walter 
•t Baker'.s store. 

Q. Well ? — A. Philip Guardupuy came out and said he was deputed to show us 
across tile river. 

Q. You were then on the Nortliside of the river t — A. Yes. He f;ot into the slei^li 
and took us across to their council room. 

Q. Where was their council room ?^- A. The council room at that tinie, was a little 
building just south of the church. I do not know whom it belonged to. It is liurned 
down now. It was just near the cliurch. • 

Q. Whom did you find in the council room /i— A. A number of men. 

Q. Armed ? — A. Yes, they were armed. 

Q. These twelve or fifteen men you liave referred to, were they armed ! — A. Yes. 
Philippe (ruardui)uy was not armed, but the rest were. We went into the council room, 
and I went around the table and among them, and finally was introduced to the prisoner. 
That wa.s the tirst time I had seen him. 

■' Q. Where were you introduced to him ? — A. In the council rooni. 

■Q. "^ou say that was the first time you had seen hiiu 1 — A. Yes. , 

Q.' Who were in tiie council room when you were introduced to him ?-^A; Quite a 
number. They were moving in and out. 

Q. Would you say there was a dozen men in the room .* — A. Yes ; more than tliat_ 

. - Q. Who introduced you to the prisoner? — A. Mr. Mitchell intro<luced me to Mr- 
•. Riel, as one ofyfter Majesty's soldiers. 

Q. That i^ Mr. Hilliard Mitchell?— A. Yes. I shook hands with' Mr. Riel and had 
a talk with him. I said : There appears to be great excitement here, Mr. Riel. He 
said : No, there is no excitement at all, it was simply that the people were trying to 
redress their grievances, as they had asked repeatedly for their rights, and that they had 
decided to make a demonstration. I told him that it was a very dangerous thing to 
resort to arms. He said lie had been waiting fifteen long years, and that they had been 
imposed uiion, and it was time now, after they had waited patiently, that their rights 
^sliould be giveji,_ivs the poor Half-breeds had been imposed upon. I disputed his wisdom 
and advised hiui to adopt different measures. 

Q. Did he jspeak of himself at all in the matter ? — A. He accused me of having 
neglected my people. He said, if it was not for men like me, their grievances would have 
been redressed long ago. That, as no one took any interest in these people, he had de- 
• "cidetl to take the lead in the matter. 

Q. Well ] — A. He accused me of neglecting them. I told him it was simply a mat- 
ter of opinion. That I had certainly taken an interest in them, and my interest in the 
country was the same as theirs, and that I. had advised them time and again, and that I 
had not neglected them. I also said that he had neglected them a long time, if he took 
as deep an interest as he professed to. He became very excited, and got up and said : 



.19 

I 

You don't know what we are after — it is blood ! blood ! We want blood ! It is a war of 
«xterniination ! Everybody, that is against us is to be driven out of the country. There 
were two curses in the country, the government and the Hudson Bay company. 

Q. Yes ? — A. He turned to nie and said I was a ti-aitor to his t;overnment. That I 
was a speculator and a scoundrel and robber and thief, dnd I don't know what all. 

Q. He used very \ iolent language to you ?^— A. Yes. He finally said it was blood, 
and tlie first blood, they wanted was mine. There were some little dishes on the table,' and 
he got hold of a s])oon and said : You have no blootl — you are a traitor to your people. Your 
blood is frozen, and all the little blootl you have will be there in five minutes, putting the 
spoon up to my face and pointing to it. I said : If you think you are benefitting your 
cause by taking my blood you are (piite welcome to it. He called his i)eople and the 
committee, and wanted to put me on trial for my life, and Garnot got up and went to 
the table with a sheet of paper, and CJal)riel Dumont took a chair on a syrup keg, and 
Kiel called up the witne.sses against ine. He said I was a liar, and he told them that 1 
had said all the people in that section of the pountry had ri.sen against them. He said 
it was not so, that it was only the people in tliis town. He said he could prove that I 
was a liar by Thomas Scott. 

Q. Was Thomas Scott there ? — A. Yes ; he 'said so'. 

Q. Well ? — A. He called for tJarnot, the secretary, and called for the witnesses, 
and they would a.sseut to what he said. 

Q. Which of the two Arcands was there ? — A. Baptiste. He was putting words to 
their moutlis, saying things I did not understand at all. " When I saw what he was driv- 
ing at, I said : I am heie, and if you wish to liear uie speak for myself I will do so. I 
said : There is no necessity for Mr. Kiel telling what I have to say. If you wish to hear 
me I will speak, and if not, I won't. They said yes. I said, 'Mv. Kiel, I suppose youii 
understand Cree ! He said yes. I did not si)eak French, and I said : I will speak inl 
Cree. I spoke in Cree. • * 

Q. You spoke in Cree and told them what vou have said ? — A. Yes, and what hjid 
occurred. Champagne got up and said 1 told them Riel was threatening to take my life. 
Isaid if you think by taking my life you will benefit your cause you are welcome to do 
so. He said no, they did not wish anything of that kind. They wanted to redress 
their grievances in a constitutional way. Riel then got up and said he had a committee 
meeting of importance going on upstairs, and he went upstairs. 

Q. Did he return ? — A. I spoke to them for quite a while, and he occasionally 
came down and i)ut his hoail down stairs and said I was speaking too loud, that I was 
annoying their committee meeting. When 1 said what I had to say, I asked for some- 
thing to eat, that I was pretty hungry, I got something, and after I got through, there 
was a lot of blankets in the corner, and I laid down there till Mitchell was ready. ■ 

Q. Where was ^litchell at the time 1 — A. Up stairs. When he got through he 
came down with the prisoner, and I told him to wait awhile, and we left for Fort 
Carlton. Wlien he came down, he, Riel, apologised to me for what he had said, that he did 
not mean it to me personally, that he had the greatest respect for me personally, but 
that it was my cause he was speaking against and he wished to show he entertained 
great respect for me, he also apologised in french to the people there, and he said as I 
was going out that he was very sorry I was against him. That he would be glad to have 
me with them, and it was not too late for me to join them yet. He also sdid this was 
Crozier's last opportunity of averting bloodshed, that unless he sun-endered Fort Carlton, 
an attack would be made at 12 o'clock. 

Q. He said if Major Crozier did not suiTender, the attack would be made at 12 
o'clock that night? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was there anything more 1 — A. That was all I had to do with him then and I 
then left. 



V 



/ 



./ 



/ 



20 



Q. What dkl you then do?^A. I went to Carlton. 

Q. That would have Ueen on the nioraiiig of tlu; "Jlst ? -A. Yes. 

<j. About what time? — A. One or two in the aftt'rnoon of the "Jlst. 

Q. What happened on the way ? -A. I met a uunilier of aimed peopli' i-oniin^' into 
Batoehe. 

<J. How far from Batoehe ? — A. Alwut two mrles. 

Q. -You met a number of armed peojde in sleij^hs ? -A. Yi*s, in slfij^hs, Iiidiuus and 
Half-breeds. ( 

(j. Indians from what reserve? — A. I did not reoo^nize tlie Indian.s. 

Qj How uiaiiy sleiglis full? — A. Five or si.\ I met on the road. I spoke to them, 
I kiiew two or three of the men who wore there. I askeii them what all this was about, 
they jdnjped out of the sleifjlls and shook hands with me, and told me they had been 
sent for and taken Ijy Albert Monkuuin who wais driving the team. 

Q. How many altogether wer*^ there? — A. In one slei;.;h there were five, and, I 
think, in another there were six. Altogether thei-e must have been I'U or !'.">. 

Q.! Were they all armed ? -A. I could not say, beeause they wen? sittini; down. I 
saw rirtes and guns along with them. 

<^. Yoa went liaek to Carlton ? — .V. Yes. ' ^ 

.Q. Did you meet ijiany men on the way ? — A. That is all we met on the road. 
When we j^ot to l)uck Like, there was a trail coming from ti.e eau an-.l west, and we 
saw. some sleighs pa.s.sing llieie and some sleighs pa>5sing along the Lake. 



Then when did voii ''i-t to Duck Lake or to Carlt': 



itlier? — A. About four 



. Q. 

o'clock 

Q. What was your object ill returning to Carlton .' -.\. 1 was Just returning. .Xs I. 
was just goin.:; aw.iy from the council ro(jm, I overt/iok Emmanuel Champagne, he was 
walking "along the road with . I ackson, who was with Kiel at that time. i toM him to 
get into the rig and I thanked him for tiie siand he had talien. l.Hold him if 1 could be 
of service to him in any' way 1 would never forget the services he had remlered me. He 
told me then they had decided to .send two men to Major Crozier, but tiiey weie afraid 
of treachery, that they were afraiiT they would be arrested, i .saicl you need not be 
afraid 1 will Ik- one of the party tliat w ill come out, and you may tell them they will not 
be interfered with at all. When we got to Carlton, Mitchell delivered the letter to 
Major Crozier, and I think it was ask'fj^ him to meet him half viay some time that 
njglit,'"alul that Riel did not ciioose to 'meet Major Crozier himself, but that he ha<l sent 
two inen. t- " 

C^. Did you ,^o as- I'epresenting Major Crozier ? — A.- Y'es. About an hour after we 
had resiched there, Charle.'fi^olin ami Maxime Lepine came up driving in a cutter. We 
were mounted. We told them what Major Crozier iiad said, that they should give us 
. the.nalmes of the leaders of the movement, and that they would have to answer to the 
law, l)Ut that a great many of them who had lieen forced into the movement, that they 
should be dealt leniently with. Nolin said Riel and his council denninded the uncon- 
ditional surrender of Fort Carlton and nothing else would satisfy them, and if they did 
so, no harm would be done them, that they would give a safe-cOnduct home. We said 
there was no use discussing the inatter at all as we said the matter could not be enter- 
tained at all, that all we had to say was to advise them to disperse and go home, and 
that the leaders of the movement would have to be answerable to the law. He then 
said he had a letter which he was told to hand us, that it would lie no use to hand it, as 
Fort Carlton was not to be surrendered. I thanked them for the stand they had taken 
.when I had been there that morning and I returned to Carlton. 



^21 

Q. Is tlii»t all that passed between you and Capt. Jloore, and Xoliu and Lepine ? — • 
A. Yes. 

Q. Then what did you do ?— A. We returned to Carlton. 

Q. How long did you remain there? — A. I remained there till the 24th. 

Q. You had ;;ot as far as the 'J^rd. You gave me an account of your interview in 
tlie council chainher — of your trial, you spoke of Gafiiot; Philippe (tariiot, I think, you 
said? — A. Yos, PliilippetJarnot. 

Q. What capacity (lid he act in ? —A. As secretary. 

Q. Of the council ? -A. Yes, tukinj^ notes of the evidence. 

Q. Which was given against you ? »-A. Yes. 

Q. Well, did any one ask him to act ? — A. Riel called for the secretary and then 
■Onruot came forwartl. 

Q. And took his seat at the table ? -A. Ye.s, as secw^tary of the council. 

Q. Now on the 2 1st vou got liiick to Carlton, how long did you remain there ? — A. 
till the lUth. 

Q. What did you do then ? -A. On tlif night of the 24th, between ten and eleven 
o'clock, Crozier asked me to go and see if I could hear anything of Major Irvine. 

Q. Was he expected ? — A. We heard that he left Regiiui with reinforcements, but 
nothing had been heard of him. 

Q. You heard that he had left Regina ? — A. That he was to leave at a certain time. 

Q. And notliing had been heard of him up to that time ? — A. Yes. 

Q. ()n the 24111 Crozier asked you to go and see if you couhl tind anything about 
him ? — A. I .started Jtnd took tlie trail to Prince Albert, the wire was tapped about half 
•way between Hatoche, t.o see if anything liad been heard of him at Pi-inte Alliert, before 
going any furtlier. Wh<-n about 23 miles out from Carlton, I met two messengers with a 
note for Crozier ; I opened the note and found that it was a note from in.spector Motlatt, 
stating tiiat he heard he was at the south branch, and that he.expected him back that 
night, I found out that he had reached Prince Alliert"; I saw him and told him that I ' 
\vas sent by major Crozier. I tlieu returneil to Fort Carlton,- travelling all night and got 
into Carlton about four o'clock in the aft(aMioon. 

Q. With Col. Irvine ? — A. No, I left liim. They had made a march that day of 
about .seven miles, and he did not know'whether he could make Carlton that day from 
tlieie. 

Q. You returned to Carlton ? — .\. Yes. 

■ Q. You got there between'three and four o'clock ?— A. Between four atud five. 

(}. ICaviiiit gone out and got tidings of Col. Irvine vou returneil at thai time ? — A. 

Yes. 'v. 

Q. What did you do ne\t ? -A. I overtook a messenger with a note from Col. Ir\-ine 
to Crozi^^r, .saying that he could not leave that day, that Ive would the ne.\t, the 26tli. I 
had been, travelling all night and turned in early; after I turned in, I was told that 
Crozier wanted to send .sergeant Stewart with teams, and an escort for the purpose of get- 
ting .some proxisions and Hour from the store belonging to Mitchell, at Duck Lake, and 
that he wanted me to accompany the party, and we were to start at four o'clock the iiext 
morning, that would be the 26th. The next morning came and we got up and got ready, 
sergeant Stewart sent out an advance guard of four men on ahead towards Duck Lake, to 
see if the road was clear ; we followed witli the teams and sleighs. 1 was riding on about 
a quarter of a mile ahead of the teams looking out. When I got within three or four 
juiles of Duck Liike, I noticed on the road some jieople lying in the snow, there we^e 



! 22 •, ' . ' 

marks, I t&ok them to be Indians. I noticed them connniinicatiug tlie signal by walking 

. backwai^ls and forward ; I suspected they were watching the trail. I got to within about 

a mile and a lialf of Duck Lake ; there is a ridge there a little to the north of the mail 

station ; when I got there I saw some mounted policemen, riding at a full galop, and 

immediately after them there were some mounted men, following them ; I wheeled around 

and rode back as haa'd as I could make my horse go. Then? was a hill about a ((uarter 

of a mile away, I wanted to gefto before they came. When I got within sight of the 

men I threw up my hands and told them to prepare and get their riHe.s ready. I told 

them that they^were following the Mounted police. I told them to get their rilles, and said 

' not to fire," whatever tliey do, I can ride out and if they want to lire they can have the 

' first chance at me and you can defend yourselves. They were coming round the bluff, they 

^ were jiretty close to the iiieii, 1 saw they would overtake them, I knew they were excited, 

so I rode out as hard as I could, they then hauled up all but one man who came right 

on and who never hauled up at all, it was Patrick Fiary. I asked them what they were 

about. Thej* said : What are you about f 1 said that we were going to Duck Lake, to get 

Jlitchell's i)rovisions. Tliey said there were a great many there. . 1 asked whether they 

■ were at Duck Lake, they said yes. Tln-y said we had better go back. 1 turned around 

and went towards the sleighs, as I was getting near to the sleighs, a party of perhaps ."10 

or 40 of -them very excited, came upon us; they were yelling and flourishing their ritli's ; 

they were very excited, (iabrid Dumont was of the l)arty ; he was very excited, jumped 

off his horse and loaded liis riHe and cocked it, anil came up to me and threatened to blowi 

out my brains, he, and some othei's threaten'ed to use tlieir rifles ; I told them to be ijuite, 

that two could play at the game, Dumont talked very wildly, he wanted' us to surrender. 

Jle siiid it was my fault that the ])eople were not assisting them, and that I was to blame 

for all the troulile. I told him that we could not surrender, that I thought we hail the 

best right to this ))roperty. Some of them jumped oil' their horses and went into tho 

sleighs. 1 rode uj) and told \\ie teamster to hold on to his horses. They made one or two 

attempts to snatch the lines, Hnally he fired his rille ovim- our heads ; they ij^ll stcpjied oft' 

.'the roail and we wt'nt on the road to Cailton. 



Q. Had any of the men got into the sleighs ?— -^. Two of tlieni went into one sleigh,, 
and tliey went to a second team to try and get the lines. 

Q. Then there was nothing, but the one shot tired ? — A. That is all. 

Q. You returned to Carlton 1 —A. Yes. 

Q. How many teams- had you on that occasion ? — A. f^even or eight. 

V^Q- How many policenien ? — A. A policeman in each team, sergeant Stewart and 
iome others. 

Q. How many altogether? — A. L> or 16 ; there wei-e 22 of us altogether, l/) police- 
men, I think... 

Q. You returned to Carlton 1 — A, Yes. 

' Q: W'hat time did you get there 1 — A. About ten o'clock. 

Q. Ii/TTie morning ? — A. Yes. ' ' 

Q. What did you do then ? — A. As we returned to go back sergeant Stewart sent a 
man to report what had taken place. 

Q. You had sent in a man in advance to report what had taken ]ilace ? — A. Y'es. 

■ Q. Well ? — -A. When we got near Carlton, we met an advance guard coming out of 
Carlton, there were a Mundjer of teams, they were coming 'out of Carlton, and we wheeled 
arodnd' and went oixt with them. 

Q. Who was in command of that party ? — A. Major Crozier. 

- Q. How many were there ?— A. 99. 



i 



23 



X 



I/' 



I Q. How nviiiy constables ? — A. 56. 

Q. Of the party that tirst met you the time you turned back you stated there were 
30 or 40 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. How iiiauy were Indians and how many were Half-breeds ? — A. There were_ some 
Indians and sonus Half-breeds, I cannot tell you the jiroportion at all, 1 was not paying 
much attention, I kept my eyi'S on Jim Owen and one or two others. 

Q. You met the advance guard coming out of Carlton, in all there were 99 ? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Major C'rozier was in command ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Were there any sleighs ? — ^A. Yes. 

Q. How were the men ' — A. Some niountetl and some in sleighs. 

Q. AVhat is the distance from Carlton to Duck Lake? — A. Aliout 14 miles. 

Q. Did you Join and go back with them ? — A. Yes, the whole party. 

Q, This would be on the L'Gth ? — A. Yes. We went until we came to a house, about 
four miles from Duck Lake, when the advance returned and rejiorted that there were . 
some Indians in the house. I believe it was Beardy's house. He was in the house. 

Q. Was it ui>on his reserve ? — A. Yes. "^ 

Q. Well ] — A. Tiie interpreter went over and he came back again. "I do not know what 
occurred bet\» een them. We went on and when we got to the same place where I returned 
back that morning;, we .saw the advance guard coming over the hill, in tlie same way as 
in the morning. - 

Q. Was the advance retiring ? — A. Yes, at the same place as in the morning, and 
there was a nuudjer of men following them. 

Q. Aliout how many t — A. I cannot tell you, they were coming over the hill and 
they were scattered all along the road ; there ajipeared to bfe (juite a numlier of them. 
Major Ci-ozicr told us to unhitch the horses and make a ban-icsitle, and take the horses to 
the rear, when they came near ; within half a mile, they made use of a blanket a.s a flag. 

•Q. White blanket? — A. Yes. Crozier went out and called liis interpreter, and •'the 
two parties came near each other. Tiiey began to talk ; in thV meantime, they were 
running on the road getting liehind us and behind the hills. 

Q. They were changing tlieir positions 1 — A. Yes. 

Q. Well, what then ? — A. While placing the sleighs, T hestrd someone calling out 
that they were liring upon us, and let thenr liave it. I said : Wait till we get hurt. Just 
then, I turned my head kind of that way and saw Major Crozier lift his hand in the 
direction the liring was from and he said : Fire now. And the tiring began then, and there 
was tjuite a skirmish for thirty or forty minutes after that. 

Q, How long did it last ? — A. Thirty or forty minutes. I did not take time in con- 
sideration. 

Q. How many were killed on your side ! — A. We left ten men upon the tiejo, but 
one of them was wounded and turned up afterwards. 

Q. Who was that ?— A. Newett. 

Q. The other nine t — A. Were dead. One mounted policeman was killed and several 
were wounded, two died just after we got to Carlton. 

Q. You brought two back with you ? — A. One, the others died after we got back to 
Carlton. 

Q. What time did you get back to Carlton ,' — A. It must have been about four 
ock in the afternoon. 



24 

Q. How many were killed on the otlier side, you did not know at the time ? — A. No. j 

Q. Puring the engagement, liow many men would you judge to lie engaged upon the 

other side ? — A. We could not see them. I cannot tell that; some were in the house, some 

were Ij^TiidlJlfe' hills. There were two sleighs with two Indians in each liehindus, and 

one Indian who was mounted ; that was the Indian that was talking to. Major Crozier.; 

, he was killed when the firing' l)egan. 

Q. Would your ohservations- eiiahle you to say how many were engaged upon the 
other side ? — A. The road -seemed to be pretty well covered with them. 

Q. Can yO!i form any idea as to the number? — A. The road was straight and they 
seemed to. cover a "greater space than we covered, but I cannot say as to the nuinl>er ; 
they seemed to cover a greater space that we did. 

Q. You caiuiot say the proportions of Indians and Half-breed.s ? -A. I cannot say. 
I saw live Indians, these Indians got behind us, one of them was killed. 

~' : Q. You di^ not recognize any of the people that were there ?: — A. I did not recognize 
any j)erson. J • "» 

Q. — -You returned to Carlton and got there about four oV-loek. - A. Yes. 

Q. What (lid you do tlien ? —A. Tliey were .some time attending tlie wounded. Col. 
Irviiie got in al)out an hour aft<-r wi- got in and 1 think it was tiiat afternoon or the 
next morning that he decided to leave Carlton and go down to Prince Albert. 

- Q. Did you go with him ? — A. Yes. 

<^ Was Carlton burned ? -A. Ye.s, I believe it took tire accidently and part of it 
was burned then. 

Q. He decided to evacuate Carlton with his forces ? -A. Yes. 

y. And retired on Prince Albert ? .V. Yes. ^ 

t^. Wliat distance is that ?— A. 40 or .'iO miles. 

■ ^ Q. Did you go with him to Princ-e Alliert ? -A. Yes. \ 

Q. Wiiat day w.»s that ? — A. We left on the morning of tlie 2Hth, about one or two 
o'clock, and we got down that evening. 

Q. You remained at Prince Albert during the rest of the lebellion ? -.\. Yes. 

i). You have told me all you kjiow aliout it? — A. Yes, there may be .siimething that 
I have omitted. When Mitchell introduced me to the prisoner, he asked Mitchell whether 
, -I came of my ijRvn accord or whether, I came with him. When he heard I came with him, 
he s;iid I was epititled to the same protection as he was, but if I came of my own accord, 
lie would look after me, or something of that kind. The prisoner .said I was entitled to 
the same protection as he was. 

Q. Is there anything else that you ri'niend)er 1 — A. No, 1 cannot remend>er every thing 
that tix)k plii<e. I <lo not remendier anything el.se. 

By Mr. (iHKKNsniKMi.-;. ■ . 

Q. The Hitst time that you met the prisoner was in the council chamber ? —A. Yes. 

Q. And before tliat you never saw him ? -A. No. 

<j. Nor did you see him after that till in court?— A. I saw him in court, when he 
■ was first brought into court. 

Q. You had no conversation nor did you .see bini from that time till his surrender 
to General Middleton ? A. No. 

Q. Y(flW|^ver had any personal ijuarrel or trouble with him before ? — A. No, I 
never had any ftoniniunication with him. 



(/ 



25 , --• 

Q. Did he appear excited wlieu you were introduced 1>y Mitchell?— A. Xo, not at 
tlie timer A while after he became excited. 

Q. How long after was it till he got excited ? — A. I cannot tell. 

Q, Five or ten minutes ? — A. Perliaps a tjuarfer of an liour. 

Q. During that interval you were talking with him all the time? — A. He went 
away for a Httle while, and then he came hack again. He went up.stairs aud came hack 
•again. 

Q: Tell lis what he said when you were tir.st introduced and shook haiids with him. 
Did he speak first or did you ? — A. I spoke first. 1 told him that we would slvake hunds 
■or something to that effect, and he said yes. 

Q. Now, what did you first hpgin to talk with him ahout ?— A. I told him, 1 said : 
Tliere appears to lio great excitement here. He said no excitement at all, everything 
was rjuiet, or something like that. 

i-i. You said .something ahout his liaving spoken aliout wanting to get their jrriev" 
aiices redressed .' -A. YeS: I think 1 .said there .seemed to lie,a numher of men armed> 
and he said that tliey had heen asking for tlieir rights for fifteen years, and they had not 
heeii gr^ited, and they had decided to/make a demonstration. 

Q. Did you have any conver.saffon as to what the rights were ?- A. No, I had not 
■with him. 

Q. Whom did you talk ahout it with ? — A. The rest of the people that were in.' 

Q. That is,.the council ? -A. Yes. 

Q. What was their statement to you regarding their rights? — A. They did r^bt 
seem to know — tliat they were entitled to .scrip and never got it. 

(J. Did they sjieak f>f having made any petition to the'tJoverntiieut for their rights? 
— A. Yes. We diseu.ssed the matter. I had taken part my.self in the petition that we 
Sent forward, and knew more ahout it than they did. It came out in this way, liaUriel 
Dumont .said that I had taken no interest in the matter hefore; that I never advised 
them ; that it was only now, when matters had gone so far, that I advised them in the 
matter. 

i.^. That was r(^]iroaching you hecause you had lieen in.strumental in getting the 
riglits of the Half-hreeds — the English Half-hreeds ? — A. We were entitled to scrip, hut 
ve never got it yet. 

Q. Have you got it since,? A. No. . , 

Q. There is a commission sitting now i — A. Yes. •. ; 

y. Riel said that the only answer they got to every petition wu^ an increase of 
police? — A," No. 

i). What was on the tahle when you went into the council chamher ? — A. Some tin 
dishes and some spoons, .some fried hacon ,and some hannocks. 

< >. Any hlood in tiie dishes ? -A. No. I did not see any. 

i}. Will you swear that tliere was not ? Will you swear that .sonte of tliem were 
not eating cooked hlood at the time ? — A. Not that I saw. 

Q. How long after the conversation with him did he use the words "he wanted- 
blood"?— ^V. He left me and came hack again, it was then he said it. 

Q. Was he in a v^y excited state of mind when he talked ahout l)lood ? — A. He. 
Iiecame very excited. IN:old him that I did not think that ho had adopted a wisej-ajr 
4o redress their grievance. 'i*( ' 

Q. In what position was he at tliat time ?— A. Standing striking the table. • 



1 ' ' . J 2(ii 

■ ' - v 

(/. What d«l the prisoner say. to you when Mitchell stated you were entitled to the- 
. same protection as Mitchell was 1 — A. It was Kiel said that, not Mitchell. 

Q. Didn't he say you were at liberty to return ? — A. He said I was entitled to the ' 
same protection as Mitchell. 

Q. You did not go as you jileased? — A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Was tliat before, or after the conversation about the blood took place ; was it 
before Riel liad told you he wanted blood and that you were free to go? — A. It was be- 
fore I had any conversation with hiin at all. 

Q. The Hrst thing he did on being introduced to you was to assure you that you 
were at liberty ?~A. Yes. 

Q. You had no fear but that you were at perfect liberty to returii ? — A. It did not 
ni^e any difference to me. 

Q. After telling you that you were at perfect liberty he spoke to'you of his desirfe 
for bloo<l ? — A. Yes, certaiidy. 

Q. Did you have any other conversation with him that day ? — A. He said what I 
said at the time he went upstairs. He went up, and he would occasionally put his head 
througli and say that I was s|>eaking loo loud. After he came down he a|)ologize<l, and 
said lie had great resjiect for me personally, but it was my causp. 

■ Q. On. the whole he treated you civilly ? — A. No; he made use of language to nie 
that wa.s np\ er before u.sed to me. 

Q. l)id he have any coiivereation with you as to the object of the rebellion ? — A. He 
said they wanted their rights. I 

Q. Did he tell vou anything about the administration of the North-West Territories I 
—A. No. " , __ 

Q. Aljout a new Church ; — A. No. • 

Q. No conversation about either of these matters ? — A. No. 

Q. When he calleil for blood was it after he went down 1 — A. He went away and 
canje back and called for blootl. 

Q. And then he went upstairs ? — A. Yes. 

Q. When he came down the ne.\t time he apolo;;ised for the language use<l 1 — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Shortly after that you went away ? — Yes. 

His Honoh. — Any juror that desires to ask the witness any question is at liberty 
to do so. 



John W. AsTLEY. sworn, examined by Mr. IJurbridge. ,■ [ 

Q. You resT3e at. Prince Albert ?^A. Yes. 

Q. How long ha\'e you resided there 'I — A. About three years. 

Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Civil Engineei-, Land Surveyor and Explorer. 

Q. In March last you were employed by Major Crozier 1 — A. I left with volun- 
teers to go to Carlton. 

Q. How were you employed ? — A. As volunteer, and then I was used as a scout. 

Q. What time in March? — A. About the 18th March. 

■ Q. How long were you a scout ] — A. I was scouting through the French Kettlft-^ 



r 



^ . 27 

meats, the Half-breed settlements and the reserve till two o'clock on the iiiorniiig of the- 
26th. 

Q. Were you alone ?^- A. Part of the time. Part of the time H. Ross was witli 
me. 

Q. You posted a j)roclamation t — A. Yes, I posted a proclamation from Crozier, 
telling those who had been forced into rebellion that if tliey gave themsel\;es into the 
charge of the police they would be protected. I posted those as far as Le[)ine's and back 
by the other road, in the most conspicuous places where I thought there would be a 
chance of their being .seeit, one in English and the other in French. I noticed in passing 
the road afterwards that these notices were nearly all torn down. 1 went over the road- 
on the morning of the 36th, to see if the French Half-breeds were trying to intercept 
Major Crozier. Rcss was with nie. We were about the place where the battle took 
l)lace. I was about thirty or forty yards ou aliead of Ro.s.s, an^ an Indian suddenly 
Jumped alongside of me and pointed his ritle or shot gun -at my l>reasf. I turned arouiitl 
to see if my p irtner was pris>uer to.i. I saw that he w.is, ajid that there was sonm 
.sixteen or twenty of them all aiuied, and, as he was captured first, I thought it was be>t 
to give up <iuietly. 

Q. Who appeai'ed to be the leader of the party? — A. Gabriel Duniont. Then- 
were abiiut 10 or L'O of them, part Half-breeds and jiart Indians. We were taken to 
Duck Lake and put in the Telegraph otiice till the morning, and an armed guard was 
placed outside the. building that night. Albert Monkman seemed to be in charge of 
Duck Lake at that time. 

Q. How many men would be at Duck Lake at that time? — A. f^O or 100, that i>, 
takiug into consideratiim those who were acting as outside gtiard. lu the morning we 
were removed upstairs, in what had been ilitchell's house. 

(^. During that day did anymore come in? -A. Alter we were placed ui)stuir>, 
about noon or shortly before, a lot of Half-l)reeds and Soiue Indians came from Ratoche 
witli the prisoner in coiinnand, that would be some tiiue aiiout noon. 

Q. The accused was in conunand, how did you come to that conclusion? — A. That 
morning he interviewed me and Ross, and talked to us ; he brought Bourget with Jiim, ' 
he seemed to have control and asked the questions. I was down stairs afterwards for a 
few uiinutes, and I saw the pri.soner beckoning to the nuni to tall in line, and they fell 
in line. 

Q. He was giving commands ? — A. Ye.s. -• 

(). After they were reinforced how many men liad they altogether^ — A. I should 
say about 400, takiug both Indians and Half-breeds. 

(}. How many Indians? — A. About l-'iO Indians altogether. 

Q. Did you see any of the prisoners on the 26th ? -A. Lash, Tompkins, .Simpson, 
JIcKean and Woodcock were brought up into the same room. We heaixl some report 
of Mackay having come near the building, and being ordered back by Duniout. In the 
afternoon, looking towards the west, we noticed them running towards Carlton." Shortly 
after that, all that were there, except what I would call a fair sized guard, who remaine<l 
around the building, went in the same direction. Shortly after the prisoners heard 
tiring, I myself did not hear it, I heard the sound of a cannon, that is all I pan swear to. 
Ill about an hour or an hour and a-half, they returned bringing a wounded prisoner. 
Newett, with them ; he was shot through the leg and hammered on the heA<l with a 
musket or something. I dressed his wound, and the prisoner came upstairs and talke<I 
to us about the battle. He said that ourselves as prisoners nijht have been sent into his 
hands to show future people in what way he had conducted the war, pointing to the woun- 
ded prisoner and saying that he used that "man humanely. He said the volunteers and the 
police tired first. I told him tliat from what I knew. of Major Crozier, he did not intend 
to lire lirst, that he liad told me so. I suggested that perhaps a gun had gone ofi" by 



28 



-A. In the evrly part well, as well as 
down into the 



■ accident, and the prisoner admitted that that was perhaps so, but that one shot caused 
the start. He called on his men in the name of God or the Sujii-eme Being : " I say 
unto you fire,'-' and he explained that the troops were beaten by the bravery of liis own 
soldiers. 

/ O. At tliis time were tlie stores looted ? — A. They were not looted wlien we went 

tliere, but befw-e we left they were cleared out. 

Q. You were taken to Carlton on what day? — A. On the .31.st of March we left 
Dack Ltke for Carlton. When we got out in the yard Riel was there in person ; some 
were getting into sleighs, when he told us to inarch. 

Q. Who v/as in command of the party that took you ? — A. Monkman. When we 
got tq Cijrltoii, we remainii:! there till the 3rd of April, we were then moved to Batoche, 

J2. Who was ill comm md in taking you to Batoche? — A. Andre Joliin. In Ba- 
toche we were placed in a room on the lower floor of the store, afterwards we were put 
on the upper Hat of the same store. Soon after I sent a communication to Riel in 
reference to Ross and the othei' prisoners, seeing what I could do towards getting rfn 
exchinge. Riel came upstairSi and told mo he could not see things iii the same light, 
but. that he would exchange us fojf Olarck, 8proat and McKay. 

Q. The Hon. Lawrence Clark ? — A. Yes; I said that could not 'be done. 

Q. How were you treated as a prisonf 
M^n could lie under the situation, but after that, when we were taken 
^ cellar, we could not have been treated worse. 

Q. Did they take extra precaution at the time of Fish Creek ?— A. There was 
always a home guard left around the buildings. Just after the Fish Creek light, the 
Indians came back earlier, and alarmed me as regarded the safety of the prisoners. I 
thouglit as long as the llalf-lireeds were thei'e, the Indians could not get at us, but if 
the homr guards were taken away, when the Indians came back earlier, they might 
mista -re the prisoners. After the Fish Creek tight, I wrote to Riel asking him for an 
interview, that would be abiut tli- 2*Uh of April ; had a long talk with him about the 
prisoners. 1 told him about the fears I entertained about the Indians, and iisked him if he 
would allow int! to see the General or Irvine, to try and ert'ect an exchange. He refused 
to exciia|ige. 

*). What did you say to him ? — A. I said : What do you want to keep us for ? I said : 
J. suppose you wish thaf if you or your council get into danger, you will want the 
prisoners for that purpose. Riel said : Yes, certainly. I said to liim to allow me to go 
and .see either Irvine or the General aliout getting an exchange. I said : You claim a 
victory at Fish Creek and Duck Like. And I said : Let me go and try for terms. 
•He said that lie hail gaine<l two victories. I asked him if he would not allow me to do 
that. He said : We must have another battle, and he said : If we gain another battle, 
the terms will be itetter. And he said : If we loose it, the terms will be the same as now. 
He said; that after another battle, he would allow me to go. From that day, I was 
waiting, expecting that anotlier battle would occur. On the last day, that would be the 
1 2th of JI ly, he came to the cellar and called my name in a hurry, and as I was getting 
out, he (old the rest of the prisoners tlfat he was sending me to the General with that 
• message. I think the paper is there. 

Q. [s that the paiier ? — -A. Yes, that is the message I carried out that morning 
-'•{Papep'sliown to witness.) 

Q. Pid you see the prisoner riglit after that ? -A. Yes, right at the council 
chamber at Ifatoche. At the sam;! time that he wrote another message for Jackson to 
t like, I took the message to the General, I also saw him write that one for Jackson. 

Q. Is that it (shown witness) 1 — A. Yes, that is the one that Jackson carried. 

Q. He gave that to Jackson the same time he gave you yours ? — A. Yes, at the same 



29 

time ; one of us was supjwsefl to j;o one way an<I the other the otlier way. I rode to tli>- 
jfeiieral with that on horsclnick, tlie prisoner went witli ine until he passed me thtough 
his own lines. I went out, rejiched the jjeueral and ijive him tlie note ; he read the note Mid 
took a few minutes to consider. I asked liim to write a note to Hiel. He wrote that note 
and I took it hack to Kiel. 1 think tlial note is anion-; tlie pujiers there. Instead of allow- 
in}{ nie to go hack, into the cellar the prisoner made me <;o into the church, and he put an 
englisli-spnikinf; Half-hreed and an Indian to i,'uard the church. In alnjut haif an houv 
or so Riel calle<l for ine aj^ain and I went with liim amonf; the women and the children. "X 
He wrote several notes, hut none of them seemed to please him awd, he ti>re them up, 
except one which seemed to suit him. I sat talking with him till he had tini.shed writiui; 
and then I began to ask him whether it would not lie better to let nie see and trv what 
terms I could fjet. I said that he could come with nie and see the General. After talkin<( 
a loni,' time he left me and came hack in a short time witli (Jabriel l)umoiit, but as I do 
not talk French I had to let the pri.soner explain to Gabriel what we were talking aliout. 
Finally he sai<l there was a great deal to consider, it would then be aliout one o'clock : 
about half jiast one o'clock he had nearly agreed to « hat 1 proposed he should do. The tirinu 
then began and he at once turned to. and asked me wliat that meant. I told him that 
some of the Indiaife must have started it ; I toUl him if he would write a note to the _ 
(Jeneral, thanking him and say nothing about fighting, but leave it to me, I would^get the 
firing stopped if po.ssible, anyway I would see what could be done. He then wrote a note 
,and asked me to take it. I asked him to jia.ss nie througii the lines. 

Q. Is that the note (showing witness) .' —A. That is the note just as an excuse for 
me to get the tiring stoppeil. ' 

Q. That is the note ]- A. Ye.s, he wrot.' that in a tent or in tlie council chamber 
and gave it to nie ; he went part of the way with me through his lines, in the position 
outside his own ritle pits, the tiring was pretty heavy. Kiel went down into a low place 
till I overtook hiin, he «as on horseback. .Some of hj,s men had left the lirie pits and !;one 
to where he was. When 1 came n\t to him, Riel asked for the note and imt it into an 
envelope. 

Q. Is that the envelope ( — A. Yes. . 

<ii, Are those words the wordslie wrote upon the envelope .' -A. Yes, he took the note out 
of my hands and wrote those words on the outside in my presence. He ordeied the men 
who had left the rille pits to go back again and they went back along with uie : I continued . 
on, went to the tieiieral and gave him the note. I did not call his atteiitioii to the memo- 
randum on the outside of the note till night time. I asked him how the tire began 
and he said that the Sioux started it, but that if Riel would get his men to stop tiring 
that he would order liis men to remain where they were and they would not advance any 
further. There was not time to write a letter and I went back and it took- a long time 
to rtnd Riel ; I went among the women and the children and I found him. The tiring 
was getting warm. I told him what the General liad said, that if he would order his men 
to stop the tiring he would do the same and that he could come with me personally to the 
General. He liesitated for a time. At last I said: There ai-c not many minutes^to waste if 
you want to call the council tt>gether, call them and ^et ine address them. At last the 
prisoner said : " It is not necessary to call the council." He saiil he would do as [ wisheil. 
I said you acknowletlgeyou have the power to do as I wish without the council. He said 
yes. I said for him to give the order to stop tiring. He said : You know the men 1 lia\c. 
I cannot go among these men and tell them to stop tiring. He said : You kncjw that. I 
told liim I would go back and explain how every thing stood and .see if it was possible 
for the General to stop his men at a certain position if he was willing to do as I wishetl 
he was. < 

Q. That is willing to surrender ?^A. Yes, I went back and told tlie Geneial what 
he said. He said that he could not accept it as a surrender, unless Riel ceased tiring. 
I knew he could not get his men to cease tiring. I went back to try and keep the troops 
from getting at the women and children. I got the General to send a note to Riel ofler- 



30 



/ 



^he' 



I 



f 



ing the same terms as I had offered, that is that he should be kept safe till he had a fair 
trial. 

Q. Did he speak to you of his personal safety 1 — A. He had very little to say aliout 
Half-breeds, as far as regards himself seemed the principal object. 

I Q. What did he ask you in regard to himself? — A. If I would explain what risk he 
fan personally himself. He said to me that we knew that he never carried a ritle, of 
tourse at the same time we had seen him carry a rifle on one occasion. I told him he ran 
110 danger as I could look at it. - He suggested that I should broach the subject of the 
'liurch to the tieneral, and it would give him a chance to broach tlirf subject when he 
/;ame to be interviewed by the Oeneral.. He would say-that he was not to blame, that the 
ijouncil was to bliiffiie. V ,' ■ 

Q. During the time that you saw the prisoner there did you see him in command ? — A. 
He ordered the men injp the pits ou that occasion when some of them were leaving them. 
He took one Half-breed and .made him go back saying that he would be able to do some 
lighting with the troops at all events. 

Q.,.When did you see him armed 1 — A. 8ome time before the Fish Creek tight, it 
iiust have been about a week before. I~was tiilking to lliel before the council chamber 
pne day, when a frencli Half-breed came up with the report that the troops were coming, 
^lioitly after, myself and .the rest of the prisoners saw him as he passed the front of the 
house quickly with the Half-breeds going towards the river armed. 

1^ Q. During the eight days 3-ou were in the cellar were you bound at any time ? — A. 
They used to tie us up about supper time and leave us that way till ne.\t morning, that was 
or the last eight days. Delornie came down and threatened to shoot us if we were loose 
*-hen he returned. Th.ey' used to tie our hands behind our backs and release us in the 
Homing again. 

Q. It is sugsjested to ask you if, when you were released on the 12th, anything was 
id to the prisoners ?^-A-. He told the other prisoners the message I took to the 
ieneral, that ^f the women and children were- hurt or were wounded by the troops he 
k'ould massacre the prisoners, or words to that etFect, just the same as was in the note. 

Mr. Johnston. . _/ 

I Q. Was the 26th of March, the first occasion an which you saw the prisoner / — 
A. No, I saw him in the settlement since last sunnner oli' and on, , but not to know him 
us I know him now. 

Q.l How often did you see liim from that time?^A. Perhaps tea or twelve times. ■ 

Q. Where did you see him ? — G. At the Batoche g)!>ttl«iient. Prince Albert and 
liiflereiit parts of the Prince Albert Distriot. 

Q. Were you present at any of the meetings ? — A. I never attended any. I was at 
'?rince Albert meeting lufew minutes, but'I took no interest in it at all. 

Q. A few minutes at Prince Albert ?^A. Yes, .just walked into the hall and saw the 
])risoner at the end of the hall. ' 

Q. When did you commence to take an interest in him? — A. When I went to 
Carlton as a volunteer and when I undertook scouting, j , 

Q. You went up from Prince Albert with the volunteers, how long did you remain 
•s,t Carlton 1 — A. About a day, and then I went through the settlement. 

Q. When you left Carlton, where did you go 1 — A. Past the Indian Reserve, Duck 
tiake, and through the principal part of the French Half-breed settlement. I didn't go 
4|uite to Batoche. 

Q. You returned when 1 — A Some times at night and some times in the day time. 



{ 



\ 



31 

Q. Did you see the prisoner at Batoche .' — A. Till the 26ih I did not go to Batoche 

Q. Now you were prisoner, who took you prisoner? — A. Sixteen or twenty Half- ' 
breeds took nie. (ialiriel Duniont was in cliarv'e of tlie scouting party. 

Q. How long were you prisoner before you saw Riel and his u>en ] — A. From two. 
o'ulocJi that morning till about noon the sameilay ; that i.s, when he came in per/on £rcjm 
Batoche. i . , 

Q. How long was he at Duck Like before you saw him? — A. I saw him comin'ii in 
the yard. 

Q. Was he tiie first man tliat caine^ into the yard I — A. You cfiuld not see the yai:d, 
he was the first man I noticed. I knew him by sight. 

Q. Were there others besides him ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was he mixed with tlie others ? — A. No, he was more advanced than the others ' 
he was by himself. 

Q. How was he di-essed ? — A. Large cheek common looking trousers as well as I • 
remember, about the same kind of tweed lie wore most of the time. Riel was never \erv 
partici»lar about his dress. 

Q. How long was lie there before he came to inter\iew you and the other prisoners ! 
— A. I would say it might be perhaps half an hour. 

Q. Did he come to .see you or did he send for you ] — A. iHe came to see Ross and 
myself. 

<.^. To whom did he address himself first ? — I do not know, I m.ay liave been the 
spokesman. 

Q. What did you say to him ' —A. I did not tell liiiii exactly what I was there for. 
I gave him another story. ■ . " 

Q. What was the story i — A. That I was tra\elling through the country making 
inquiries if the outfit was stopped at his headijuarters. 

■Q. What was your object in telling that I — A. To get away from that place. 

Q. Was tlie prisoner excited at that time ? — A. Not that I could .see, he talked 
reasonably, as rather a clever man. 

Q. What did he say? How loiig were you engaged in conversation with him at that 
time? — A. Just wliile f explained him. 

Q. Did lie tell you afterwards he had found out you were not telling the truth ? — - 
A. I don't think he found it out for five weeks. 

Q. Did he say anything about the Church and State at that time ' — A. Not at that 
time. 

Q. Did he talk about the rebellion 1 Wliat did he say ? Tliat was the last you saw of 
him till you returiie<l from Duck Lake ? — ^A. No, after the battle was over he came up 
and saw us. 

Q. Did lie say that he was at that battle ? — A. Y''es, that he had ordered the men 
to fire. 

Q. He said that Crozier tired the first shot !— A. He said that the volunteers or 
the policemen fired the rii-st shot. I said that I knew that Crozier w-ould not tire the first 
shot, that perhaps one went off by accident. Then he admitted that it might be so. He 
laid no stress on the first shot being tired. 

Q. How long did you talk with him at that time ? — A. Quite a long. time. 

<J. How long ?— A. I could not say as to the time at all. j 



Q. Ho\V many of you 
VVoo<lcook. 



! 32 

Q. How long did you converse with liiin ?-^A. He talked to Ui? prisoners. 

A. Myself, Lash, the two Tonikins, Ross, McKean ind 



A. Charlie Newett. [ 



(,). Were the woundeil- prisoners with you iit this time ?- 
Iressed his wounds. The prisoner asked him some ijuestions. 

Q. What did he ask liini ?- A. He asked him whether he knew the Hon. Lawreiue 
Clark was among the volunteers, that was the principal tiling. 

Q. I)id he ifive directions Ikjw the wounded niiin was to be treated? — A. He left 
that in my hands. He lioped and expected I would do the best I could for the wounded 
prisoiiers. 

Q. You say you were speaking to him a considerable time, did he at this time strikie 
you as being excited or excitable, or was lie calm ? — A. He was cool enough, a little elated 
at his victory. 

Q. Did he speak of dividing the Territories? —A. Ife mentioned about the llalf- 
jreeds making certain claims and told us that we had no business in that part of the 
irountry, that \.e belonged to Canada, and that this country belonged to the Indians and 
Ualf-breefls. ^I did not take much interest in what he was saying, as 1 was dressing the 
ftouiided prisoner. 

Q. Did you hear him talking of defeating the tiovernment that time? — A. Not as 
I'ar as defeasing the tioverninent is concerned. ^ 

i}. Wl'iat did he say al)Out it 1 — A.- He told hs what the ordinary claims were, and 
laid tliiU we might have l>een sent to show how he conducted the war. 

Qj Do you know, ditlhe sity anytliing about saving the life of this wounded man ? — 
A. He said that he himself had stopped an Indian from killing that man. I told him 
that was the etfect of raising the Indians and that was the way the Indians fought, to 
hill a man when lie was wounded. 

t^. When had you a conversation with him again ■ A. The next day I was down- 
stairs a short time, and I met him and had a talk with him about the Indians. I told 
Jjim it was a bad thing to have anything to do with the Indians. He said that he could 
jiot helj) it, that he was compelled to use Indians. I told hini<that he. was aware that he 
■ould not control the Indians. 

Q. Who \\a^ present at that conversation ? — A. I was by myself just' coming out of 
4he door. 

, Q. Were there any others around ? — A. .Some Half-breeds wen; stationed as guards, 
they were ariiied. 

Q. During that occasion, or on any occasioii, did he speak of the Church or of 
;he Dominion of Canada ? — A. No, nothing of any importance, except at Batoche. 

Q. What did he say at Batoche about his Church / — A. He said he wanted me to 
mention to the General that he was to be recognized as the founder of the new Church, 
and that it the subject was mentioned to the General he could continue the subject when 
he metihiin. . . 

I Q. What did you understand by founding a new Church? — A. I understood it as a 

sharp trick to get the upper-hand of the unfortunate Half-breeds. 

, Q. Did you understand that before? — A. I looked upon it in tliat light. 

I y. Were there other Half-breeds listening to this conversation at Batoche ? — A. Lots 
of them were standing around, but only an odd one could talk English. He spoke iu 
!^iglish to me. 

Q. Why did you think it was to get the advantage of the Half-breeds 1 — A. I con 
sidered that; he was using them for his own end. 



) 



33 

Q. Did you consider his actions eccentric ? — A. He seemed intelligent, and in many 
ways a clever man, 

Q. What did you say to General Middleton about this man ? — A. I told the General 
exactly what I knew about the matter. 

Q. Did you tell the General that you had considerable influence over Riel, and that 
he was a simple-minded man 1 — A. No. • 

Q. You have had considerable to do with the working up of evidence against Kiel. 
— A. Not that I am aware of. 

Q. Have you been engaged in that line for the last month 1 — A. Jvot working up 
evidence. 

Q. Workiiig up the case? — A No, I am here as a simple witness. I am not more 
than the others. 

Q. Have you given instructions to the Crown about this prosecution ? — A. Not in 
any other light. I gave no instructions, it would be rather strange if they received 
instructions from me'. 

Q. Had you anything to do with preparing of the papers or giving information ? 
— A. Not in preparing the papers, I have only given my own information. 

Q. Did Riel appear to have been engaged in this fight, or was he afraid to fight ? — 

A. As far as I could see he was too much afraid /to run his neck into unnecessary 

danger. ' 

J 
Q. You were not alarmed that you would receive injury at the hands of Riel or the 

Half-breeds ? — A. At the hands of the Indians. 

Q. Not injury from Riel? — A. Not as |ar as the Half-breeds were concerned, I 
knew Riel's object in keeping us. He admitted himself that that was his object. 

Q. How many interviews had you with General Middleton altogether? — A. One 
in the morning, one a little after the fire began and one after. I could not get back. 

Q. How many altogether ? — A. Three. ' 

Q. During that time you had made arrangements as to the surrender of Riel to 
General Middleton 1 — A. He said he would do as I wished, but I could not get that, 
because by that time the charge had begun and Riel was gone. 

Q. What reason can you give for Riel's willingness to surrendor himself ? — A. I 
told him what a kind man the General was, and he thought from the words of the note 
that what I said was true. 



H.^ROLD Ross sworn, examined by Mr. Scott : , ' 

Q. Where do you live, Mr. Ross? — A. At Prince Albert. 

Q. What is your occupation t — A. I am Deputy Sherifi". 

Q. Where were you on the SOth of March last ? — A. I was at Carlton. 

Q. In what capacity ? — A. I went up as a volunteer under Captain Moore. 

Q. When did you go there, on the 20th ? — A. On the 18th, I think. i^^ 

L/ Q. On the 18th of March you went there ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Do you reniambeK the 20th of Mai.-b.' Were you doing anything on that day 
in your capacity of volunteer ? — A. Nothing; nothing particular at all. 

Q. What duty were you engaged in after you \fe*jnt to Carlton !— A. Chiefly 
volunteer. 

3 



I 34. 

Q. Wliat description of duty? — A. Just staying there, waiting for an attack on 
Cfirlton. 

Q. How long did you stay there 1 — A. I was there, we went there on Thursday, 
aiid I was tliere until the 21st. The 21st would be on Sunday — on the 21st. 

' Q. What did you do' at Carlton? — A. I saw Major Crozier, and he asked nie if I 
would go to Stoney Lake, between three and five miles from Carlton, and see certain 
Ejiiglish and Scotch Half breeds there, and ask them to come into the Fort. 

Q. Did you go ?-^A. I went and they came in with nje. 

Q.. When did you conie in 1 — A. We came in the "same evening or about, I suppose, 
sik o'clock that night. 

' ^. [Were you out after that again ? — A. On the following Monday morning I left 
■with Mr! Astley. I went out scouting on Monday. 

Q. Monday, the 22nd ? — A. Yes. We went to Duck Lake, and from IJuck Lake 
w|e wen* to the 8t. Laurent church mission. 
j Q. When did you go back to Carlton ? — A. Tuesday night, about ele\ en o'clock. 

Q. On the 23rd ? — Yes, the 23rd, and on Wednesday, I stayed there all day, and 
about eleven o'clock in the evening, half past ten or eleven, Mr. Astley said that Major 
Orozier wanted us to go out and see if the Half-breeds would intercept Col. Irvine on the 
route frbm Regina to Carlton, and we went out. 

Q. About what time ? — A. Between half past ten and eleven, as near as I can judge. 

Q. On Wednesday night ? — A. On Wednesday night, yes. 

Q. How far did you go ? — A. Well, somewliere near where the battle of Duck Lake 
was fought, and about a mile or so between Dwiii Lake and Carlton, close to Duck Lake. 

Q. Did anything happen there? — A^^We were taken prisoners by (Jabriel Duniont 
and between sixty and one huiulj*d-TITen. 

Q. ! Did you know any of those beside Gabriel Dumont ? — A. No, I could not re- 
ognize any. 

j Q. Will you describe liow you were taken prisoner? — A. I heard a sort of noise 
behind 'me. The horse at first drew my attention to it by picking up his eai's, and a sort 
of stopping, and I turned around and saw a body of men behind me, and I called Mr. 
Astley's attention to it, and I wheeled my horse around and I was surrounded by Half- 
l^reeds and Indians. And he told me to dismount. Gabriel Dumont came to me and 
ifecogniied me, and said how are you a scout, and he told me to dismount, tiiat T was his 
j)risoner, and I refused to dismount, aiid they pulled me oft" the horse. 

Q. Were they armed ? — A. They weie all armed, every one of them. Gabriel Dumont 
^hen fe(lt my revolver, he felt it under my coat, he got quite excited and he went to take 
it awajt from me, and I drew the revolver out myself, and he held it, (witness showing 
how it was held holding his right hand to his stomach) and I was covered by aji Indian 
on my right with a gun, and there were two more behind me. 

Q; Guns were pointed at you ? — A. Guns were pointed at me, and Mr. Astley called 
in 'me not to shoot, better hand over the revolver. 

Qi And did you surrender ! — A. I' did. 

Q. And what was done with you ? — A. We were taken to Duck Lake and put into 
lihe telegraph station. 

Q. What was the aspect of Duck Lake, at tliis time ?^A. Full of armed men, all 
around the post. Guards all around the post. Wherever we were, in front of the building 
on the road, all around the t>uilding where we \f ere imprisoned. 



I 



■; 



35 • 

Q. Where were you put? — A. In the telegraph office. 

y What kind of a buikling is that ? — A. A very small Imikling. 

Q How many stories < — A. A small little liuilding, as large as an ordinary porch. 

Q. How many stories ? — A. One. 

Q. Was there any body else in there, litside.s yfni and Astley? — A. No. 

Q. I supi)ose Astley was taken with you ?- A. Yes, only the two of us. 

Q. liow long were you kept there ? — A. Till about nine o'clock tlie ne.xt morning, 
as near as I can judge. 

Q. Did anything occur next morning ?—^A. No, nothing particular. 

Q. How long did you continue alone there ? — With Mr. Astley ? 

^— ' iQ. Yes ? — A. Well, we were tliere luitil we were remo\ ed to Mitchell's house, up 

stairs. -. . * 

t^. And when was that ?— A. That sanie morning, about nine o'clock. 

(j. Tliis was on the 2t)th .' — A. t)ii tlje 26th. We were there until the rest of the 
prisoners came over from Datoche. 

^Q. And wliat time was that ?--A. They came somewhere about noon. 
,Q. This was in the upjier story of Mitcliell's liouse .' — A. Of Mitchell's house. 

\"And the other prisoners were sent up there too ? — A. They were sent up with 
• ■<^- ' 

Q. Did you see any people about that morning? — A. Outside? 

(j. Yes ! — A. The square was full of armed men all tlie time. 

Q.^Was thei-e a larger crowd there when the prisoners were brought in than there 
was in the forenoon before 'I — A. Yes, there was a good many came over with the other 
prisoners. 

Q. How many armed men did you see there altogether? — A. I should sav there 
would be <jetween :500 and 350 men, as near as I could judge. I did not count them. 

Q. Of what nationality ? — A. French Half-breeds and Indians. 

Q. What prjjportion would be Indians? — A. I should say near 100. between 75 
and 100. • 

Q. Did anything occur that afternoon 1 — A. That afternoon the battle of Duck 
Lake took place. 

Q. How do you know ? A'. We could hear the shots. 

Q. About wliat time ? — A. About half past tlu'ee or four in the afternoon 1 should 
say. 

Q. Did you see any of the men armed going ? — A. I saw them all going, 1 saw about 
300 going. 

Q. In the direction of the battle-tield ? — A. Yes, the firs;t intimation I had tliat the 
battle was taking ijlace was Albert ^lonkman cdming upstairs where, we were, and we 
asked him wliat was the matter, and he said there was a little tight going on, at'that 
time they were all going then. 

Q. All this armed force you had seen were hurrying in that direction ? — A. Hurry- 
ing in that direction. 

Q. Did you hear any shooting and firing before going in ^Mitchell's ?— A. Xo, after 
that we heard rifle shots. 

i' - ■ ■ • 



36 



Q. Anything else? — A. No, nothing else, I did not hear the cannon, they had a 
cannon there. I did not hear the gun. 

Q. What occurred that afternoon, after you heard the tiring 1 — A. Well, after we 
heard the firing, about' half an hour afterwq,rds, they came back, some of them came back, 
some of the men came upstairs, one Fiddler in particular. 

Q. Did you see the prisoner Riel that afternoon ? — A. Yes, I saw Mr. Riel that 
afternoon. ' ■* 

Q. Where? — A. He came upstairs. \ 

Q. When ? After the tiring or before? — He came up before the tiring and he spoke 
to me upstairs. 

Q. What ()id he say? — A. He called meiiy my name and asked me how I was. Spoke 
to me and said I need not be afraid, that I would not suffer at his hands, something to 
that effect^ I forget the exact words that he said now, but then after the tight he 
came upj ' . 

Q. And what did he say then ? — A. The first thing he said was something about 
Newett, one of the men that was brought in as. prisoner. 

'! Q. What did he say about that ? — A. He said he thought he would be l)etter with 
us than with anybody else. We were his friends and we could look after him better 
than anybody else, and he put him upstairs and then he and Mr. Astley were speaking 
something about tlie battle. 

Q. pid you hear the conversation between them ? — A. I heard the conversation. 

Q. What was it? — A. Mr. Riel said the^roops fired first, and Mr. Astley suggested 
that perhaps the shot went off by accident, and Mr. Riel said — well he did not agree with 
•him for some time afterwards — he said perhaps that was the way. 

t Q. Did he say anything else 1 — A. Aud he said : When I heard the shot I called on 
my men|in the name of God to tire. And he seemed (juite proud of it. 

Q. pid he say so? — A. No, judging from his actions, that is all. 

Q. How long did you reniain in the upper story of Mitchell's store ? — A. Until the 
31st. On the morning of the 31st we were sent to Carlton. 

Q; IBy whom 1 — A. By Mr. Riel himself. We came out in sleighs. He said we 
were going to Carlton. 

Q. How did you go to Carlton 1 — A. In sleighs. 

■. Q. Did you go alone ? — A. No, seven of us altogether. 

Q. Seven persons 1 — A. Yes. 

Q. Anybody besides the piisoner ? — A. The Indian and Half-breed guards. 

Q. You were taken under guard to Carlton ? — A. Yes, under guard. 

Q. JHow long did you remain at Carlton ? — A. Until the 3rd of April. 

Q. I Who w^s in command at Carlton? — A. Albert Monkman. 

' Q. 
Q. 

Q. What was done with you then?— A. We were then ordered from Curlton. We 



\V*re there many men there? — A. About 150 to 200. 

Armsd ?— A. All armed.' 

You were kept there until what day did you say? — A. Until April 3rd. 

What was done with you then?— A. We were then ordered from Curlton. 



were called up about two o'clock in the morning. 

Q: ( )rdei'efr up where ? — A. For Batoche. We were called up about two o'clock in 
the inoiiiing, and we started for Hatoi^he, and when we were leaving, the buildings were 
set on I ire. . 



37 

Q. Then the Fort was deserted at the time you left ? — A. Yes, they deserted the Fort. 

Q. And they niarched to Batoclie ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What was done with you when you reached Batoche? — A. We were put in the. 
lower Hat of a house' owned hy Baptiste Boyer for that day, and we were put upstairs oa 
the second flat. 

Q. And how long did you remain there ? — A. We were there till the end of the 
campaign. That was our prison at the time of peace, and, if there was any excitement, 
we were shoved into the cellar of an adjoining building. 

Q. How many times were you put down into the cel'ar ? — A. three or four time.s, 

Q. Do you remember how long you were there the last time ? — A. About teii days. 

Q. Continuously ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In the cellar ? — A. In the cellar. 

Q. How many prisoners were there in the cellar ? — A. Seven. 

Q. What was the size of the place ? — A. About si.xteen feet stjuare and nine fleet 
deep. 

Q. Any other precautions taken to prevent you escaping besides putting you in the 
cellar ? — A. Always a guard ujistairs, and the trap was very well secured, so there was 
no cliance of us escaping by knocking the trap up. 

Q. Any thing else ; Were jou shackled ? — A. We weie tied every night with our 
hands behind us. 

Q. When did you first see tiie prisoner after you were taken to Batoche ? — A. I 
saw him at ditl'erent times. I saw him every day n^rly. 

Q. What was lie doing 1 — A. He would be out addressing the men, talking to 
tlieui. 

Q. Could you say whjit was said to them 1 — A. No, it was in French, I don't . 
understand French, apparently giving orders. 

Q. You don't know ? — A. I could not say what. 

Q. Did he ever visit you during the time you were contini-d there? — A He came, I 
think it was two or three times. 1 am not sure as to the number of visits. < )nce particularly 
he came and I asked him fur a little e.vercise, and he said he would see aboiit it. He did 
not come back for some days, perhaps two clays after that, and I heard him talking 
outside and I went out, and lie said that, under the circumstances, he could not allow >is 
to go out at all : that we would ha\ e to stay in. 

Q. Was that ail the conversation you had with him ? — A. Yes, that is about all. 

Q. When did you last see hiui ! — A. I saw hiin 

Q. That is at Batoche J — A. About eleven o'clock on the 12th, or a little earlier 
than that. It was at the time they called Mr. Astley, on the I'jth of May, the day of 
the Charge. 

Q. Did he say anything to you that day ? - A. He came and opened the hatch in 
the cellar and called Mr. Astley. Mr. A-stley, he said, come up and stop the troops 
advancing, for if they hurt any of our families we will massacre all the prisoners in the 
cellar. 

Q. That is what he_said ? — A. That is what he said. 

Q. D^you remendjer having any con\ ersation with the prisoner after the Fish Creek 
battle i^A. After the Fish Creek battle, I remember Kiel one time — 1 cannot tell the 
day,jOT date — saying that they had gained two victories and they wanted to gain a third, 
afia they could make better terms with the Government. 



/ 



f /' Q. Tliat \ 
V • Q. When 



was afte 



/ the Fish Cr 



38 



•eek Hght ? — A. Yes ; after the 24th of April. 



re were you confined at this time, in the cellar or in the l)uil(lin<{ ? — A. We 
were taken out of the cellar and we were in the building. 

Q. TJliis was during one of his visits to you \ — A. Yes, during one of his visits. 

Q. Was the building in which you were confined attacked, or the huildinj,' above the 
cellar in which you were conKned ? Did they attack it at any time ? — A. No, not at all. 

Q. Do you remember the .shell ? — A. That was done liy the troop.s. I think it was 
the eleventh of May there was a shell went through the building. 

Q. Did you see Kiel shortly after that? — A. .1 did not see him. He came to the 
cellar — the hatch —and asked me if we were safe, all safe. I knew his voice, and we said 
we were, bnd he said : I am glad to hear it. And he went out of the building and came Ixick 
again. We could hear him walking along the Hoor, and he said: I forgot to tell you you 
had better call on God, for' you are in his hands. 

Q. Was that all he said ? —A. That is all he said. ■ 

By Mr. Fitzpatrick : ■ . ' | 

Q. Mr. Riel was not witli\the party that ari^ested you, was he? — A. He was not. 

Q. fl'^ fii'st ti"'f >ou sa\\ Mr-. Iliel was after you were put in Mitchell's house, was 
it not?— lA. I had seen him a vear before that. 



Q. (bn the occasion in question we are talking about ? — A, Tliat was the first time 
I saw him. 

Q. You say you saw the troops leave for the Duck Lake fight also ? — A. His trooj>s> 
yes, the rebels. ^ 

Q. Did you see Riel with them ? — A. No, not going away, I did not see him. 

' Q. If he had begn there, of course you would have seen him % — A. I saw him 

outside. , 

Q. When they were going away diil you see Mr. Riel with them, going away to 
' l)uck Lkke ?— A. i did not. 

Q. Had he been with them you would have seen him, would you not ? — A. I might 
not. There was a big crowd going away. 

Q. There were 300 going out ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you say they were half an hour away, half an hour elapsed from the time 
they left till the tiiiie they came Vjack ? — A. About half an hour, I should say, perhaps a 
little more. 

Q. When Mr. Riel saw you in Mitchell's, the first thing he said was that he was 
glad to See you ? — A. No, he did not say he was gla'd to see me. He said ; How do you 
do ? You shan't suffer. > 

Q. Who wanted you to go down to the cellar ai the time you were jmt in the cellar 
at Batoche, who put you there? — A. We were down diti'erent times. At one time or 
twice Deloniie, another time it was a French Half-breed, his name I have forgotten. 

Q. Neither of those times was Riel present when you were put down in the cellar 1 
— A. No, he was not. 

Q. At the time you asked to go outside for exexx-ise, Riel said to you that you had 
l»ett#r not go out because the Indians wanted to kill you, did he not ? — A. He did not. 

Q. Did he not give you to understand, at that time, that that was the reason ? — . 
A. He did not. .^ 



39 



Q. Did you not know that was the resison ? — A. I had a sort of idea, the Sioui were . 
rather dangerous at that time. It was not" from any information from him. 

Q. You knew very well the protectors you had there were the Half-breeds as 
against the Indians t — A. Certainly we did. We looked to the Half-breeds for protec- . 
tion. 

By Jllr. Scott. 

Q. You say, Mr. Ross, that Gabriel Dumont was the leader of the party w ho took 
you prisoner ? — A. He was. 

Q. Did you see him aftenvards ? — A. Yes. / 

Q. Wliere?--A. I saw liim at Batoche. I saw him at Duck Lake. I don't re- 
member wlietlier I saw him at Carlton or not. 

Q. Did you see any <?thers of the party who took you prisoner afterwards ?^A. 
One Indian, that is all I can remend)er. 

Q. Tlieu Gabriel Dumaut formed part of the same party that you saw Riel in com- 
pany with afterwards ? — A. Certainly. 



y 





Peter To mpki ns, sworn, examiiied by Mr. Casgrain._ _ -^ 

nere did you live in the month of March last ? — -A. Duck Lake. 

Q. Do you remember tlie 1 8th of March last ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What happened on that day ?-p-A. Nothing particular happened on that day; 
till towards evening. 

Q. Well, what happened towards evening ? — A. Towards evening, I was up at the 
mail station, and the telegraph operator came up there for me and wanted me to go and 
repair the line, tlie telegraph line was down. 

Q. Well, what did you do 1 — A. I told them I would go. 

Q. Did you go?— A. I did. 

(j. Well, what happened 1 -A. I went and got a horse and rig and tried to get 
anotlier man. I had considerable ditticulty in getting another man, and finally I got my 
horse and brought him to Duck Lake to the telegraph office, and the miller, Mr. McKean, 
volunteered to come along witli me, an<l the operator got a message that we were to 
start for Duck Lake at 12 oV-lock at night, start about midnight at Duck Lake to repair 
the line. 



-A. I repaired the line, in two diflFerent 



Q. You repaired ' the line didn't you ?- 
places. 

Q. Well, what happened to you after you repaired the line ! — A. When we were 

repairing the line, there were aliout 30 Half-breeds came rusliing down on us and 

arrested us. j 

i- 
Q. Did you know, any of them ? — A. Yes.' 

Q. Who were they t — A. I knew the man that was in charge. 

Q. Who was ft ?-7A. Joseph Delorme was one of the men who arrested me, and Jean ■ 
Baptiste Parenteau was the other. 

Q. What did they do with you ? — A. Tliey told us to surrender in French, at least 
that is. what I understootl them to mean, and they took us down by Walter and Bakers ' 
store. / 

Q. Well, did you see anything strange at Walter and Bakers store ?— A. I saw 
them going through the store, looting everything there was in it. 



y 



■to 

Q. Who was goiiif? through the stoi-c ? — A. The Half-ljreeds and Indian^, there 
were not iiiaiiy Indians there. j 

Q. Were they ariu^d ? — A. Yes, they were all armed. 

Q. Whom else did you see there, did you see in particular there any l)Ooy that 
you recognised f^A. Well, I saw quite a few that I reingiiized, I saw (Jahriel Duinont, 
and when we were sent upstairs I saw Mr. Lash, the Imlian agent. 

Q. You were taken uj)stairs in Walter and Baker's store ? — A. Yes, we were sent 
upstairs, and I seen Lash, Marion, Joseph Gagnou, Ml-. Walters, William Tompkins and 
quite a few others upstairs. ! 

Q. What were they doing there ? — A. Most of them were prisoners. CJeorge Ness 
was another man. 

Q. Was there a guard there ? — A. Yes. 

Q. .pould you get out of the house, could you have gotten out of the house? — A. 
Not witJ^out a guard following us. , 

Q. There was a guard over you all the time ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Well, how long did you stay there, how long were you kept there? — A. We 
werp kept there till about nine o'clock, I should Judge, the next-morning. 

Q. That would be the 19th?— A. Yes. 

Q. Where were you taken to then? — A. We were taken to the church, across the 
road. 

Q. Whajt was the church used for at the time you were taken there ? — A. It ap- 
peared to be used as a council room and barracks and prison, and a restaurant and every- 
thing else. 

Q. Well, whom did you see there ? — A. I seen a whole church full of people there. 
I knew some of them and some of them I did not know. 

Q. WeTe the people armt- 1 — A. Yes. 

Q.. Were there any Indians there ? — Yes. 

Q. What tooTi place wlien they took you to the cliurch ? Was there anything done 
there by the rebels whom you saw ? — A. Yes, they brought some freighters there, and the 
prisoner addressed the people there. 

Q. What did he say ? — A. Well, he spoke in French, and I did not understand 
what he .said, except towards the last. Tke last thing he said — I undei-stood him to 
say, to tell his men — he asked them what was Carlton or what was Prince All)ert ? 
They are nothing. March on my brave ai-niy. I understood him to say that. 

Q. You lieard the prisoner say that ? — A. I understood the prisoner to say that. 
Q. To a crowd of |)eople who were standing before him ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was tliis in the church or outside the church ? — A. In the church, he was ad- 
dressing them from right in front of the altar. 

Q.! Well, who appeared to be the leader of the crowd there ? — A. The prisoner. 

Q. Did anything else take place in the churcli that day ? — A. Yes, we had our 
dinner Sn the church. And there were two men tried or 1 understood them to be tried. 

Q.I Who were they ? — A. Tried by the prisoner. , ■ 

I Q.' What for? — A. For not being with him and liis movement. They were William 
Boyer and Charles Nolin. ' I 

Q. Well, were they acquitted or sentenced, or what became of them ? — A. I don't 




41 

know what l)ecaine of Nolin. I did'nt hear his trial, but Boyer Mr. Riel had a talk 
with, and when he was through talking, Mr. Boyer spoke in his own defense, and the 
prisoner said that instead of it lieing a dishonor to him, it was an honor. I understood 
him to say so, he was talking French. 

Q. It was an honor to whom 1 — A. To Btyer. 

Q. Was this trial carried on before Riel only or bbfqre any others acting with him ? 
— A. Riel was standing on the platform, and Boyer stood up from among us men and 
spoke in his own defence from there. 

Q. Did j'ou hear or see lyiything about that council while you were in that ghurch ? 
A. Yes, I understood them to be electing a council there. 

Q. Did you see theriMyncil elected ? — A. Yes, 

Q 



Who were the councillors 1 — A. I can name some of them, I can't name them all" 



Q. Name some of them? — A. Gabriel Dumont was the man who called them out 5 
he called Baptiste Boyer, Joseph Delonue, Moise Ouellette and sevei-al more I don"t 
remember. j 

Q, Well.iwas this before or after this trial took place? — A. I think it was after the 
trial took plate. 

Q. Well, wliere did you go from that church i — How long were you kept there ' 
— A. We where kept there till about nine o'clock the next evening, and then we were 
sent down to Oarnot's place. 

Q. Philippe Garnot's place ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What capacity was he acting in do you know ? — A. He was acting as secretary 
to the council. 

Q. To Kiel's council 1 — A. Yes, we were told that we would be sent down there, and' 
there would be a few men .sent with us to look after us, that our word of honor would be 
taken that we would not escape ; so about nine o'clock that evening we were sent down 
there and there was about in the neighbourhood of fifteen men came down to see whether 
we kept our word of honor. 

Q. Were these armed ? — A. Yes. . ^ 

Q. Well, how long did you stay in Philippe Garnot's" house ? — A. Well, I could not 
say. I don't remember how long we stayed there, we stayed there quite a while. 

Q. Where did you go from Batoche ? — A. To Duck Lake. 

Q; Did you go there of your own fiee will ? — A. No. 

Q,' How were you taken there ? — A. Taken there as prisoners and by a strong guard 

Q. By whom ? — A. One of the guards told me it was by 

Q. You were taken there any way to Duck Lake under a strong guard ? — A. Yes. 

Q, Of armed men ? — A. Of armed men, yes. 

Q. Where were you placed at Duck Lake ] — A. We were hurried upstairs into 
Mitchell's residence. 

Q. Hilliard Mitchell's house ?^A. Yes. 

Q. Did you meet any bo<ly upstairs ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Whom did you- meet ? — A. Harold Ross and John Astley. 

Q. The witness Rossj who has just Ijeen heard ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And what was done to you there or what took place while you were there ? — 
A. Just as we were coming to Duck Lake, Albert Monkman galloped out of the yard 



-V 



42 

and came tifme^i=iis, and he ordered liis men up to the front and he said the police are 
coming jrpm Carlton. He ordered some men who were with us to the front, that the 



police ti ere coming from Carlton, and in Cree, at the same time, he called for us again 
and wanted to know wlio had his gun in our party, and then the man that was driving the 
team, the sleigh that we were in, put the whip to his horses and got in' as quick as he 
could, aid then we were taken upstairs. ' 

Q. And what happenned while you were up there ,'^A. Well then, when we were 
up there, we could see quite a few of them going off towards Carlton. 



Q. 

^, all 
" Q. 

' Q. 
Q. 

A. Yes 
Q. 



Quite a few of the Half-hreeds 1 — A. Of the Half-breeds, yes, and Indians. 

And how luiuiy weie there going off altogether 1 — A. I suppose probably over 
that went. , 

This was on the 2Gth day of March, was it j — A. I can't swear to the day. ; 

It was in the nioutli nf .March last 1 — A. Ye.s. 
Well, did you hear anytJiintr wliile you were upstairs in Mitchell's house? — 

What did you hear ] — A. Well, I heard a cannon go off a couple of times, and 



..,[. .. „,„ J„„ „^„> . .*. .. V-.., ^ — „.- — .- — ,-.- 

then wh^n the Half-breeds returned, Riel rode into the yard on horseback. 



The prisoner rode into the yard on horseback ?^— A." Yes, and turned his horse 
to the back of. the building, and with his liat he was waving and cheering his 



Q. 

around 

men, and he thanked them. 

Q. He apparently came in with them, didn't he ? — A. Yes, he came in just along 
with them ; the men came with liim, the men behind him and some in front of him, and 
he waved his liat cheering and hurrahing, and he thanked Ste Marie, and Mt. Jean- 
Baptist* and St. Joseph for_^his victories. 

Q. Did anybody coino upstairs into Mitchell's house when you weie theifl oh that 
same occasion I — A. After night. 

Q. Yes ? — A. Tlie pri.soner came upstairs and before he came up, Charles Newett, 
who was wounded on Dark Lake iield, was brought to the door and we helped him up. 

•Q. \yho helped him up ? — .V. The pri.soners who were there. 

Q. Helped him into the room ' -A. Garnot helped him up. 

Q. (iarnot was there too ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see (iabriel Dunioiit around there? — A. Yes, Gabriel IJuraont rode into 
the yard a little while after. I think it was after the prisoner had boi;n (dieering, he rode 
into the yard and said in dec to bring out the prisoners and kill them. 

Q. Well, you .say that the pri.soner went into Mitchell's house with those some time 
after the volunteer was taken up, did'nt you ?--A. Yes. 

Q. Did he say anythinu' there / — A. Yes, I don't remember everything that he said 
there, I remember him speaking to the wounded man. 

Q. Djfl he speak of the tight that had just taken place?— A. Yes, one thing he said 
about the fight was that the volunteers or the police had fired a shot tir.st. They fired 
first and when they fired he said, lie told me distinctly that he ordtied his men to 
fire : "In the name of the Father Almighty, who created us, fire." Tliem is the words 
he used. _ •' 

Q. Did he say any thing else at that time ? — A. Nothing tliat I remember just now. 

Q. Well, did anything take place at that time, did the prisoner go down then, or did 
he come back ? — A. Afterwards he went downstairs, and some time he came to see us. 



43 



Q. Well, what was he doing there from what you could see ? — A. From what we 
could see, I thouj^ht at the time that he was running the whole thing. 

Q. Whenever you had any communication to make to anyliody, whom did you make 
it to 1 — A. Well, if ever we wanted anything in particular, we generally applied to Mr. 
Kiel. 

Q. The prisoner ?-— A. Yes. 

Q. Was any message sent to anybody at that time ! — A. I wrote a letter home 
myself. 

Q. Well, was there anything else sent? — A. There was one of our men, who was a 
prisoner there, sent to Carlton with a message. 

Q. By whom ? — A. By the prisoner. ■ . 

Q. Who was sent 1 — A. Thomas Sanderson. 

Q. What for? — A. He was sfut to Carlton to tell Major Crozier to send some men 
and take the dead off the Held, to tell tlieiii they were allowed to take their men off the 
field unmolested. 

Q. Did the prisoner say anything further to, you on that oeca.-iou ? — A. Nodiini; 
that I can rememher just now. 

Q. Well, did you remain at Duck Lake any length of time? — A. We remained af 
Duck Lake quite a while till after the police left Carlton. We remained at Dhck Lnke 
till a day or so after the police left Carlton. 

Q. Then how did you go to Carlton ? — A. We were taken to Carlton. 

Q. By whom, by the Half-breeds ?— By the Half-breeds. 

Q. Then Where did you go or where were you taken to? — A. When we left Carlt'm 
we were taken frofii Carlton to Batoche by Duck Lake. 

Q. Well, what took place at Carlton? Did anything take place at Carlton before 
you left 1 — A. Yes, they had set tire to the police stables before we left. 

Q. Who had l — A. The Half-breeds, and the whole place apparently was on tire i 
just as we got up the hill, we could see by the tire and smoke that there was more than ' 
one building on tire. '' 

Q. You say you were taken to Batoche, to where were you taken at Batoche ?^A 

To Baptiste Boyer's store. 

Q. How long were you kept there? — A. We were kept there till about the time of 
the Fish Creek tight, when we were removed to the cellar. 

Q. Who was with you at that time? — A. There was seven of us: Mr. Lash. Mi-. 
Astley, Mr. Ross, Mr. William Tompkins, Mr. McKean, and Mr. Woodcock. ' 

Q. Was there a guard over you ? — A. Yes, always a guard over us. 

Q. Well, did you have occasion to see the prisoner during the time, during the time- 
you were there ? — A. The prisoner used to come in and see us some times. 

Q. Did he say anything to you ? — A. Yes, he used to speak with us e\ ery tiine he 
came, pretty near. 

Q. What was he doing there that you could see of him ' -A. From what I could see'; 
of him I thought that he was apparently the leader. 

Q. Well, did you hear anyljody giving any orders there? — A. Oi\ing orders ] 

Q. Yes, giving orders? — A. Yes. 

Q. Wimm ? — A. I heard the prisoner ordering his men to go on guard one nightv 



44 • ■ ' 

Q. Well, if any oic^rs were given, who gave them, who wcue they given Ity .'—A. 
The orders that I lieard given were given by tlie prisoner. 

Q. Well, did you stay at Baptiste Boyer's house all tlie time ?— A. We stayed there 
until we were removed to the cellar. ( 

.Q. How long were you kept in the cellar? — A. I don't recollect how long we were 
in the cellar ; the first time we were kept there for several hours. 

Q. Were you at lilierty to go all around the cellar, or were you tied up or howl — 
A. We were not tied till the time of the Fish Creek fight or aliout that ; l)ef()re it, the 
day of the fight, Delorme came down the cellar and ordered three guards to come 
down after him, and he ordered them to cock their guns, which were douMe barrel shot 
guns, and they covered the men, while they tied me hands and feet, and we Were left 
that way till eleven o'clock next day, supposed to be that way. 

Q. Did anything liappen after that before you were released ? — A. Every night 
that we were in the cellar we were tied mostly. 

Q. How were you released? — A. I was released by General Middleton's men. 

Q. Before you were released did you see the pri.soner at all have any conversation 
with anyboily in your presence? — A. The day he came to the cellar after Mr. Astley I 
did, the day that Batoche was taken. 

Q. Till' d,iy that Batoche was taken you saw him come to the cellar to see Astley ? 
— A. Yes, he came for Astfey ; he came there in a very excited manner ; he was very 
much excited, ami so were the men who were with him. We could tell by the way they 
flung the stones ort' tiie cellar door. They just sent them rolling all over the building 
and he came to the door of the cellar and the first words I heard him say was : "Astley ! 
■ Astley! come here and go tell Middleton if they — 1 think massacre was the word 
usect— if they massacre our women and children, we will massacre you prisoners. 

■Q. — Well, from that time till your release did anything happen between you and 
the prisoner ! — A. No, I did not see the prisoner afterwards. 

Examined by Mr. Fitzpatrick : 

Q. You .speak Cree perfectly, do you not ? — A. Not perfectly, I speak C'ree 
pretty well. I 

Q. You were arrested on what day? — A. I was arrested about four o'clock on the 
19th of March. ' 

Q. You saw Mr. Riel for the first time when?— A. I am not positive whether I 
saw him at Walter's Store or at the church for the first time. I am certain of seeing 
him at the church, but I don't remember whether I saw him at Walter's or not. 

Q. You saw him at the church? — A. I saw him at the church, but I am not 
positive whether I saw him at the store or not. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with liim ? — A. Yes. 

Q. At the church ?— A. Yes. 



What did he say to you and what did you say to him ? — A. I asked him ii he 
would respect my property, and he said my property would be resjiected and he fjave me 
leave to take my horse out of the cutter that some Half-breed had kindly hitched him up to. 

Q. Some Halt breed had taken your horse and he told the Half-breed to deliver 
your horse up to you and you got him back ? — A. No, some Half breed had it hitched 
up to a cutter and tied the horse up to a post, and I asked leave to undo it and feed him 
some hay, and he gave me permission to do so. 

Q. And he told you your property would be respected? A. He told me it would. 



45 

•Q. Now you heard Mr. Riel make a speech to his men, did you not? — A. Yes. 

y. You heard him tell that Carlton and Prince Albert w;ere nothing ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And did not amount to anything 1 — A. Yes. j 

Q. Wa.s he very far from you when he made that littlie speech i — A. Xo, he was 
about as far as vou are from me now. _ 

Q. That little speech was delivered by him to his men in French, was it not ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You would liave no objection now to repeat the little speech, the substantial 
words he used, would you 1 — A. Well as near as I can repeat the words he used, 1 don't 
know whether I can repeat them now or not. He said : " Qu'est-ce (jue c'est <|ue Carl- 
ton ? Qu'est-ce ijue c'est que Prince-Albert ? Rien. Mm'chons, mes braves ! " something 
pretty near that. 

Q. You next heard him make that speech to his men after the men had come back 
from Duck Lake, did you not ? — A. Yes. '^-^ 

Q. Where was he at the time 1 — A. He was sitting on horseback outside in the 
yard. 

Q. And where were you 1 — A. Upstairs in Mitchell's house, looking out through the 
window. 

Q. You were in the second story of Mitchell's house, were you not .- — A. I was 
in the upstairs of the house. 

Q, And he was down in the yard ? A. Yes. 

Q. And you heard all that he said, no doul)t ?^A. Well I heaid mo.stly all that he 
said but I did not understand him, at least I did not understand all he .said. 

Q. (^f course the windows were closed and he was downstairs 1 — A. Xo, the windows 
were not closed. There was a pane of glass partly knocked out of the window and through' 
this )iane I was looking. ; ' 

Q. Through the pane you were looking down at him ? — A. Yes, through the broken 
pane. 

Q. And you heard what he said out in the yard 1 — A. Yes, I heard what he said. 

Q. You heard him make his speech there saying he thanked the Lord and the Virgin 
Mary for his successes 1 — A. I don't remember him thanking the Lord, I remember him 
thanking the Virgin Mary. 

Q, Whom else did he thank ? — A. St. Jean Baptiste, St. Joseph and several other 
Saints. 

Q. He went through the whole list, didn't he 1 — A. What do you mean by the whole 
list ? 

Q. How many more did he repeat I — A. I don't remember how many more he said, 
he mentioned other Saints. 

Q. You next were present at the choosing of the council in the church, were you 
not ? — A. I was jiresent at the council before I was to Duck Lake. 

Q. That was in the church at Duck Lake, was it riot 1 — A. No, it was inthechvirch 
at Batoclie. 

Q. Were there many i)eople there ? — A. Yes, the church was full. 
Q. Did Riel take any part in the election ? — A. In the election of the council l 
Q, \'^s. — A. I don't tliink he took much part, except he spoke in one man'.s favour 
whom somebody else rose olijectiou against. 

Q. As far as vou can now recollect, that is all the part he took in the election ? — A. 
That is all. ' 



<? 



46 

Q, What he said of course was in French and you understood wliat lie said ? — No, I 
don't understand French. 

Q. Well you understand it sutWciently to know what Riel said on that occasion, do 
you not ? — A. I understand some of it, I did not understand every thins; he said. 

Q. Did Riel at any time prevent Gabriel Duniont or anyboby else f loni killing pri- 
soners 1 — A. Well I don't know who prevented (iabriel Dumont at Duck Lake. He did 
not seem to act as a man, as though he wanted to kill prisoners very bad. He just 
simply ordered them out and then he seemed to quit ;there when he had ordered them 
out.--. 

Q. That was l)umont ? — A. Yes, he did not seem to push matters ahead very much 
to try to fiet them out. 

Q. Riel took no pait in your arrest, did he ? Was he present when you were 
arrested ? — A. Xo. he was not present when I was arrested. 

\ Q. Was he piesent when you weie l)Ut down in the cellar at I!atcM>he,'you were 

»put down with other prisiiners of course ? — A. Yes. \(i, he was not present then. 

Q. He was not down in tlie cellar at tlie time you were ]iini()ned and tied there, 
either was he .' — A. No, but I had sent men to tell him we were tied. 1 had asked the 
guards to tell him we were tied. 

Q. But he was not present at the time ? — A. No. 

Q. At the time that the shell tired by the troops struck your house, he went there 
and askeil after your safety, did he not .' You were there with the other prisoners of 
course in the cellar { — A. Yes, I was there with the other prisoners in the cellar. 

Q. You know the houJe was struck with a shell, do you not ? — A. Yes, I know and 

I ojight to know. 

y ' - ■ 

Q.. Do you know also Riel came there after the house was struck? — A. I don't 
know whetlier he came tliere after the house was struck or before the house was struck, 
but I am inclined to think it was before it was struck, and after he asked if we were safe 
and alive and went out of the house and afterwards returned and s])oke through the floor, 
and he said : "I forgot to say a good woi-d to yoij. Remember the .\lnughty," he said, 
'• we have all got religion," and then he went oft". 

t^. Very good .uhiee ? — A. Kind of cool advice coming through the floor at that time. 

Q. IfSUpjiose ii would have been cooler had it gone through an ice house, wouldn't 
it ?— A. Probably. 

Q. You know that he gave a prisoner that had been wounded at Duck Lake into 
custody of the prisoners that were at Mitchell's house, do you not \ Or do you think you 
» can remeuiber that '/ A man named Newett ? — A. Newett was brought to us, I don't 
think Riel brought him there, I don't remember Riel Ijringing liim there. 

Q. You are (juite sure also that Riel did not say anything to you about him when 
he was brought there .' You are quite sure now On your oath that Mr. Riel did not tell 
Mr. Astley in your presence to take good care of that man ? — A. I can't swear that he 
did not. 

Q. You don't think he did do it, don't you ? — A. I can't swear he did nor yet I can't 
swear that he did not. 

Q. Y'our impression^s that he did not do it ? — A. I ain't got no impression about it. 
Q. Tliat fact did not remain sufliciently on your memory to be able to remember it 
of course ?-T- A. No, it did not. I don't remendjer him telling nie. 

Q. Y''ou don't remember anything about it at all, but you remember well about the 
angels he gave praise to after the victory at Duck Lake ? — A. Yes. 



47 
William Tompkins, swornA Examined l)v Mr. Roliinson. • 

Q. \ou me a brother of the last wrniess 1 think, are you not ? — A. A cousin. 

Q. You iiavf been in the euiployment of the Indian Department in these Territories, 
have you not 1 — A. Yes. 

Q. Foi- Tiow long ? — A. I have been in their employment now on and off for the 
last five years. 

Q..In what capacity? — A. As assistant farmer and interpreter also. 

Q. You were at fort Carlton in the month of ilarcli last I believe ? — A. Yes. 

Q. For how long have you been stationed there ! — A. Since the l.'ith of August, up 
till that time. * 

Q. Do you recollect the 1 Nth of March last ? — A. Yes. 

Q. I>o you recollect leaving the Fort on that day ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Witli whom did you go ! — A. ^Ir. Lash, the Indian Agent. 

Q. And for what purpose ? — A. I did not know that. 

Q. Did he ask you to go with him ? — A. Yes, he said I was to go. 

Q. You were ordered by him to go then I — A. Yes. 

Q. You were under his instructions, were you not ? — A. Yes. 

Q. He was the Indian Agent there? — A. Yes. 

Q. Just tell us what haj)pened, you went with liiui I suppose ! — A. I went with 
him. 

Q. Where to ? — A. (Jne Arrow's reserve he started for. 

Q. Aiiout how far from Carlton \ — A. i Twenty miles. 

Q. On horseback or drivjng ? — A. Driving. 

Q. Roth in the sleigh ? — -A. No, I was separate. 

Q. Each had your own sleigh \ — A. Yes. 

Q. What took place then .' — A. When we came as fur as Duck Lake Mr. Lash stopped 
therea few minutes, and then he went on to the river and stopped at Walter iV Baker'.s, 
and finally we got to the reserve and found the Farm Instructor nut at home, and fed 
the horses there, and the Farm Instructor drove up and Mr. Lash stopped a little while, 
and then we started back. He wanted to bu)' some potatoes or something for the 
Indians, as far as I could understand, and we came to this place, where I wlis taken 
prisoner at Mr. Kerr's store. 

Q. Who were you taken piisoner by ? — A. Mr. liiel. 

Q. And were there others with him? — A. Yes, there was Gabriel Dumont and a lot 
of others. 

Q. About how many others ? — A. I should judge between 60 and 100. 

Q. Were they Half-breeds ? — A. Yes, principally. ' - 

Q. Were they armed .•^— A. Yes, not them all, they were not all armed at the time. 

Q. Were the majority of them armed, do you think - A. N"i>- I don't tliin'k they 
■were. 

Q. And what were those armed with that were armed, as far as you observed ? — 
A. Guns. 

Q. Well, who first stopped you ? — A. Gabriel. 



48 . 

Q. What did he say to you 1 — A. He told us to remain there awhile. 

Q. AVhat happened then t — A. Mr. Riel drove up and said he would detivin us a 
few hours. 

Q. Well, what happened ? — A. Well, we stopped there, remained there for aliout 
ten minute.s, I should think, and tinally we were taken to the church. 

Q. Under a guard ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did all these men go with you to the church, or only a .small guard ? — A. They 
all went with us, as far <as I could see. 

Q. And what was done then 1 — A, Well, we went to the chunh, and of course I 
don't understand the French language hut I understand the Cree, and as far as I could 
make out from the Indians, they were trying to elect a council there and we remained 
there all that night. 

Q. Who were engaged in trying to elect a council, was Dumont there'! — A. GJaliriel 
was appointed to elect them, as far as I could find out. 

Q. Was Mr. Riel there ?— A. Yes. 

Q. And what part did he seem to be taking? — A. Well, I could ,not say as he was 
' taking any part. 

1 Q. Then you were put into the church ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Were you kept in the church that night? — A. No, we were taken across to 
Walter's store, and we were kept there upstairs until the morning, and then they 
returned us hack to the church again, and we remained there that night, — not that 
night, — we stopped there that night, and we were removed down to Philippe Garnot's 
restaurant at Batoche, he was cooking there. 

Q. Yes, and what happened then ? — A. First there was one of the councillors, he 
took our names, as a word of honor to go down theft, if we would not try to escaj'e, and 
I we put down our names on the word of honor, and then they sent some guards along 
to Ije sure. 

Q. How many guards did they send in addition to the word of honor? — A. Well, 
there were two with me. I don't know how many there were with the rest. 

Q. How many of you were sent down ? — A. Well, there was Mr. Lash and I, and 
George Ness and McKean and Mr. Tompkins, my cousin. 

Q. Were the guards armed 1 — A. Yes, the guards that were with me were armed. 

Q. What happened then ? — A. Well, we remained there until we went to Duck 
Lake. 

Q. And what day did you go to Duck Lake 1 — A. It was the 26th. 
Q. And who took you there 1 — A. The Half-breeds took me there. 
Q. Did you go with the other prisoners ? — Yes, all in one sleigh. 

Q. And how many Half-breeds went with you ? — A. Well, I should judge there 

was about sixty. 

Q. Any Indians ? — A. Yes, some Indians. 

Q. How many Indians do you think 1 — A. I should think there would be about ten 
or twenty. 

Q. Were the Indians also armed? — A. Yes. 

(^. What did they do with you at Duck Lake when you got there ? — A. They put 
us upstairs in Mitchell's house. 

Q. Tell us what happened next ? — A. Well the next thing tliat I heard w-as we 
were ordered down to be shot in the afternoon. I met Mr. Astley and Mr. Ross there. 



;*9 

1^. The next thing you heard you were ordered down to be what '• — A. To l>e sliot. 

(J. Ill tlie iifteruooii ; who by ? -A. Gabriel was the man that [ thouglit ordered us. 

Q. Was that l)efore or after tlie affair at Duck Lake ? — A. After the affair. 

Q. Well tell us aiiythinj; you can tliat took [dace liefore that ati'air ? l>id you see 
them j{oin>{ out to Duck Lake ? — A. Yes, I saw them goinj; out. 

1^. Where did they come from ? — A. The jiriiici[>al iiait of theui were ahead when 
we ;,'ot there. 

y. How many do you think were ahead of you ? — A. I should judjje about three 
liunilred. 

Q. And tliere were how many with you '. — A. Well, about 00 or 70 altoijetherj 
Indians and all. ._ ■; 

(J. Alid of the ;W0 how many do you tliiiik were Indian.*? — A. Al>out loO. ! 

• ij. Well, tht'Y wei'e ahead of you. Did you get to Duck Lake before they left it, 
for the place where the tight took place ■ before they went out to where the figlit took 
place ; A. Xo, they were just going out ; how I knew they were going to tight, Monk- 
.man came running by and he said in C'ree, asked an Lidian where was his gun, or had he 
brought his '^»\i with him, and he ordered them to the front, so I tliought by that thero 
was going to be a fight. 

t^. Did you see Hid at tliat time .' -A. No. I 

1^. Well then, did you hear any firing ?— A. Yes. 

Q. How long after they had gone out, did' you hear the firing ? — A. I should Judge 
about an lii>ur or an hour and a-lialf, ti> the1>e.st of my knowledge. 

Q. Did you hear many shots tired .' -A. I heard (juite a uund>er. 

Q. You heard them plainly, 1 supj)ose ! -A. Yes. 

Q. What happened ne.xt ,' -A. Well then, they all returned and we were oitlered 
out to be shol the ne.\t. (iabrieUgot wounded, 1 heard them tiilking about it down stairs. 

(j). Well whii interfered to stop that, any one that you know of ! A. A Half-breed 
by the name of .Magnus Ibirstein, told me that he interfered. 

Q. Well, you were not tate'ufoiit, and what ha])pened next? — A. Well we were 
removed to t'arlton next. 

Q. liefore that, did you see ^{iel .' Did you see Kiel at Duck Lake ? — A. Yes, he 
came with the jirisoners. ^ 

t^. And what did lie say to you .' -A. He did not make any remark at all to me. 

l^. Did lie make any renuirk to anyone else in your hesiring .' -A. He made a 
remark to Astlev or Astlev ma<le a remark to him; they were talking about the tight, he 
said that the police tired the first, and Mr. Astley sai<l that probably the gun might have 
gone off accidentally, and he said, perhaps so. 

Q. Did he tell you anything more about the tight .'^ A. The next day he allowed 
ine to go out, Itoss and I, to take the bodies off the field. 

Q. liefoie that he told Mr. Astley the police tired first, and Mr. Astley said per- 
haps the gun went off accidentally, aiul he said, perhaps so, was there anything else 
spoken of as regards firing ? A. He said he gaVe the word, in the name of (Jod, to tire. 

'. Q. He .said he gave the word to whom ? — A. To his men. 

0- Did lie .say anything more about his meli |or wliat any of them had dnjie at the 
tight 'I — A. No, nothing that I heard. -, 

IX[ Nothing that you remember? — A. No. 



4 



50 



) 



Q. Well, (lid lie say iiiiytliiiij^ alioiit yoiii-selveslf — A. Hi'sniil that proliulily \\r wric 
brought in tljero for our lives, to have our lives shvc.l. whereliy it' we hail liecii iiiitil 
suppose we would have been shot, that is the way f' iiiiderstDod it. 

y. He said that probably you were brought in then' tur your li\es'siike, that it' you 
liad lieen out you might have been shot ( A. Yes. 

Q. Well how long did you remain at ililliard Mitchell's J- .\. We lenuiined there 
until the .Ust. y 

Q. And where were you taken then .' A. To I'arlton. 

■ ^ \ 

y. By whom ( A. Taken by Baptiste Laplanti*. when he was dri\ ing the tiMm. 
there were three guards in the cellar, as far as I can think. 

0. How many other Half-breeds were there with you tln-ii- '. A. 1 shmild jud'e 
about hfteen altogether, 12 to IT). 

\ Any ImiJans?- A. Yes. 

(j. How many ! A. Two. 

Q. About tifteen Half-breeds and two hulians* .\. Yes. 

tj. What was done with you there .' -.\. We wcic placed in a house there, ujiAtairs. 

Q. When you got there, who did you find in p(>ssessi(pn iif Cavltiin .' A. .Monkman. 

. With how many n;en .' A. I should think abimt ('A). 

Q. Were they armerl / A. Y'es. 

. How long did you remain thei'e ; — A. We ivmained till the ilid .Vpril. 

i}. What was done with you then / A. We had to go back to liatoche. , 

Q. Wliat (li.stance is that t A. Tweniy miles. \ 

g. I iider a guaid ? A. Yes. Ml 

. How many were in the guard '! A. We weiit w ith all the i-rowd. • 

. The whole that were at Cailton .' .\. Yes. '\ 

t^. Did they burn befoie leaving.' A. It was in lire befnre I left. I could sec the 
flames when I had left 

Q. Then the whole force went over with you to Batoche, almut H)U .' A! Yes. 

Q. They were armed as J understand / A. Y'es. 

(^. Then when you got to Batoche what wiis done with you .' .\. Wi- weie put in 

Baptiste Boyer's house. 

Q. How long were you kept there ? A. Kept there till the battle of Ki.sli Creek. 

(^. That would have been on the 24th Ajirir.' A. On the L'4th .Vpril. 

Q. Under guard? A. Y'e.s. 

Q. And what happened on the 24th April ' .\. Well, before we were takeu to the 
cellar, I saw a man get up there and wave to the other party that were across the river 
to come on this side and they staii^ed, and we were taken down to the cellar and we 
did not hear anything more. 

y. Wii() took you into the cellar, who was in connnand of the guard if there was one! 
— A. I could nut say who was in connnand. 

Q. How long were you kept in the cellar ?— A. iWe were kept in till the battle of 
Fish Creek was over and then we weie taken out. 

Q. That would only have been a day or twfi, 1 sup))Ose at that time / A.. Y'es. 



51 

ij. Well, liow loiij; wcif Vdu li't't imt of tlic it'llui- iit'ter tliat .' A. Well, to tlu- l>fst 
of my kiiowli'di^f, I tliiiik we were put down t-itlier tlnit day or tlic next, I iuii not sure 
wliicli. 

(■i*. Now wliilc vou were iu liiiptistc lioyci's Iioum' diil you see Mr. Uii-1 .it nil .' - 
A. YfK, 1 saw )iiiii iiroiiiid. 

Q. Did he t'Vci- siH'idv to you .' A. No, iievo- liad any ron\ crsatiou u itli ini- at all 
thttt I know of. ' 

Q. I)i<l III' i-MT iia\f aiiv i-ouv crsation uitli otliiT ihtmhi^ iu \oiir iHfiiMiiv .' — 
A. Yes. 

Q. With wlioui .' .\. Jli' used to toiiMTx- uilli .Mr. .\^tli-y. 

y. What did hf .say to .Mr. .Vstlcy in youi |>nsrn(i- ' A. W.li, .Mr. .^stlt-y told 



«.,•. Ni'vcr udn<l what .Mr. .V>lli'y told you, what diil you hear liiiu >>ay to .Mr. .\sllev .' 
.\. Wfll, [ heard iiiui say he would f\< liani;i' us tor the Hon. Luwiimhi.- Clark, an<l 
Mr. Thomas .McKay or ('oloncl Sproat. 

i), What did .Ml-. .Vsthy say to that .' .\. Wrll. I dout know esactly « hat hi- said 
to that. 

(}, Y(ai (Unit rfiiiriiilii'i- what the aiisucr was.' .\. No. 

i). Thfii <luriiii; all this tiuu- were you in the ru-stoijy of an arincd ^uanl .' .V. \'es, 

C^. Who appcari'd to hi- in i-omuiaud of tin- pi-oylc tlu'n-. tin- ariin-d men ', —A. Hicl, 
as far as I i-oulil .si-c. 

(.,1. hid you ever st-t- him ariind .'- .V. Y'l-s. 

(.). What with .' A. Wiiu-hi-stcr Kill.-. 

(i. You wi-rt- left out of tlif i-filar for a short time, and when were you put haik 
there'/ .v. I^hink we were moved Kai-k, liut we came out, I think \\f were mo\ed hack 
either that <lay or the ne.\t. 

t^. You came out aliout the^lay of the hatlie of Fish Creek, "JIth .' .\. ^'es. 

C^. You m<iM-d, were moved hack you mean, on the L'.'ith and l^titli .' .V. Ye-;. 

(J. .Mow lonn did yiai remain tliei-e .' ' .V. The L'lt-h was the l.atth- of Fish Creek, 
and we were out on tin- --"ith 1 think, and than we were put hack a','ain riirht that ne.vt 
day. 

y. Then you were put hack on the L'tith, and Imw loiii; did you i-(-niain then- then .' 
• — A. Hetnained there till 1 was released. 

g. That would he tlie l:.'th of .May .' A. Yes. 

g. Who was there with you .' .\. 1 n the i-ellar. 

Q. Yes.' A. There was .Mi-. .Vslley, .Mr. Koss, Mr. Lash, Mr. .M.-Keun, Mv. Wood- 
cock and myself. 

Q. AVas there any lif<ht in this cellar or what sort of a place was it ' .V. No, no 

i , ' ■ 



light. 



Q. No lifjht at all ; .\. No. 

Q. How did you get into it ? A. Through a trap (k)or 

y. And that was closed I suppose .' -A. Ye.s. 

Q. Were you 'it liberty or oontiued, or tied in any way ! — A. We were tied foi- the 
last three nights. 

y. Hands or hands and feet or how ? - A. I was tied hands and feet, the otliers were 
only tied hands. 



/ 



o2 

<^ Who wiis it orderecl you to l>e tied ? A. Well Delorine was the man that tied 
me. 

<}. Well how was it done, was he aimed ?- A. Yes, he was armed. 

(^. Did lie say anything when he did it? -A. He .said if he found us uiiloo.sed he 
■wbuld shoot us. 

(}. Do you l-eineniher seeing Riel on tlie iL'th, tlie day you were rescued ? A. Yes. 

<^. Where did you see him ? A. He came to the trap door and took Mr. Astley out. 

<i. What did lie say to him? — A. He said to go and tell (ieneral Middleton, as far 
as 1 can understand, if he did not stop shejling the liouses he would nias.sacre the 
prisoners. _ • 

y. Did Astley go .' —A. Yes. 

<.^. Were you there when A.stley returned, or did you see him ?~ A. No. 

<^. Then have you told me all that you know about the mattei'? A. Yes. 

i^. Had you known Riel before this? — A. I had seen him, I ne\ ei- was aciguainted 
with )iim. 

(j. How often liad you seen liim before this? A. 1 had seen him just once to nijr 
knowledge. 

y. And when would that havelieen.' .\. He was holding a nie<'ting at a settlement. 
b. Wlien ! A. 1 forget the date. 

Q. How long before this .' -.\. I should Judge aliout six months. 

Exiunineil liy Mr. (iniiENsiiiEi.i>s. 

(^. Were you present at the meeting ? A. Yes. j 

y. Did you hear any of tlie speeches at the meeting ?- A. Yes. 

<.^. What was the meeting held for ( -.\. It was grievances as far as 1 could tind out. 

t^. (;ri(«\ances that the Half-breeds contended they had against th^e (iovernment ?— 
A. As fiir as I could unilerstaiid that was it, I was not thfre long. 

t^. I think you stated in your examination in chief that you did not understand 
French, Init you did unrlerstand Cree .' .\. Yes. 

<4. Aiid will you state what Mr. Riel said, did he speak in French or Kngli.sh then? 
— .\. When Mr. Riel was speaking I 

^i. Yes/ -A. Jfe was talking French. 

Q. Somebody interjireted it for you '! — A. I asked an interpreter that had it inter 
preted to him. He told me in Indian. 

Q. iSo that what you know then is the statement that you have prov.ed that Mr. 
Riel has made was interpreted to you by an Indian? — A. An Indian that understood 
French. 

Q. Hut'vou did not know what he .said himself personally ? — A. No, ] did not say 
I did. .' 



wei* presf 
ucli part, ve 



t^. I think you said also that at the meeting of the council where you wei* present 
when they were electing the council, that Riel did not seem to be taking much part, very 
iniich of ally part in it ? —A. Y'^es. I 

Q. Now you understood, did you not, the Half-breeds during yourarre.st were really 
standing between you and the Indians, that is you looked to them for protection t Yes, 
* I did. 



■ 5:? 

By Mr. llouixsox. 

Q. Tln's<< couversatioiis with Astley were they in Englisli, or how did Kiel address 
him? - A. In Euglisli. 

Q. So tliat you understood them ? A^ Yes. 

JoilN_iL_LAau, sworn, exaiiiiiied l>y ilr. Osier. 

Q. 1 believe you are Indian Agent for the Dominion (iovei-nniciit at Fort Ciirlton ? 
— A Carlton district. [• 

' . ■ 

Q. You had not been theie very lung itt the time ef the occurrences in -(luestion ? 

— A. No, I went there in January. 

Q. On the iNth Marcli I believe yon were with the last witness ? — A. He svas my 
interpreter. 

Q. .\nd you were taken prisonei- ? — .\. Yes, 1 was taken llri.^oner at liatoche. 

(). Relate how you were taken jirisoner .^ — A. 1 was returning tVcni ( >ne Arrow 
reserve, and near Uatodie I came down ujion' a crowd of armed men. (iabriel l)umont 
came forward and said Mr. iJiel wanted to see nie. While he was t.ilking Hiel <lro\ed<iwu 
at a furious rate, he came fiuwai'd and adressed me as Mr. Agent, he says : I v. ill have to 
detain you. I asked on what gi-ound he was ijoing to detain me ? And he said the reltellioii 
liad connnenced and. they inteiuled fighting until the whole of the Saskatcliewau Valley 
was in their hands. 

(,). That is what l\iel tolil you liiuiself '! — .V. Yes. 

Q. What else passed between you 'I — .V. Tlien he tol<l me to give llji niy anus if I 
liad any, to hanil them over to Dumont. ^ 

Q. Then what was done ? — \. From that we were taken to the church. 

(/ Who seemed to be in authority wlieu Riel came up ? — A. He .seeiuetl to commaiul 
the wliole thing, it was by his orders that tlie mules 1 was driving were unhitched, and 
lie took possession iit' them and the traj>. 

Q. it was he told you the intention of the jiarty '! — A. Yes. 

Q. .\bout how many men were there in arms ? ^ .V. I should say thert! were about 
40 or SO in the mob. 

Q. Mow were thev armed ? — A. With guns, chietly giins and a variety nf arms, 
rifles. 

t,). l)o yi'U mean they were all tire arms ? — A. Yes, all lire arms. 

C^. Then where were you put '! — A. We were taken down to the church' and 
renuiined there till about )^ o'clock. 

Q. The church at what place ? — .V. Itatoche. Then we were sent to the south sMe 
of the river, to Walter and Baker's store. 

(,). .\bout wluit time on the 18th ? — A. Between 8 and d in the e\ening. 

Q. What was going on at Walter and Baker's store? — A. The store wa.s being 
pillaged by the armed mob, we were put upstairs. 

Q. I)id you .see Riel there that evening ? — A. No. 

Q. You were put upstairs and whom did you find there ? — A. 1 found Walter and 
his clerk Mr. Hannipin, they were prisoners. 

Q. Any one else in the hou.st- ? — A. Not at that time. 

(.,). On the I'Jth what took place? — A. That, evening tlfcre was another pri.soiier 
brought in, Louis Marion. ' . 



g. On till- IHtli wliiii 
jn'isoiu'fs l>roujilit in. 

Q. Wlio w. 1-.. they ? 

Q. The liK'ii wlio li!i 



54 

tiMik pliu-c '! — A. Kiulv ill tlic iiioiiiiuj; then- were two niore 



A. Toiiipkius and .Mt-Keai 

l)een repairinj; tlie telegraj)!! line ? — A. Yes, tliey stated so, 

(^. Wliat liapjwned f jrtlier on the lUtli? — A. We were tlien icnio\('d to tlie church 
and ke]it tliere all day. 

<^. \\ liJit liapjK'ned 
•joing on. liut it was sj)ok 

Q. Whom did vou M'e at the church, did voil see the prisoner at tlie diurch ? 
A. Yes. 

i}. Wiiat was he doi 

i). Aiiythinj; else? 

' i}. Who was in ehai 



It the (hiiivh ; A. There was a >,'reat deal of excitement 
>ii in French chiefly, and I did not understand it. 



'i '. A. Addressinj^ the crowd. 
-\. Theri' was nothinj; that 1 know of particularly. 
i;e that ilay so far as you .saw ? — A. Tlie prisoner. 



iiu stav there 



Yes. 



iilMtUT J^ oclock. and we I 
came aloiii; and I t^poke t 
and we were removeil to 

<,>. How l.m;;- ilirl y 
•Jtith. 

U. Of .Manli .'.—A. 

1^. l)urin<.' that tinii 

(J. i 'an you jrive u 
A. On one occasion he.sai 
inent. the Hudson l>ay ( 
<'very o|ipoitunity to sur 
another occasion he told 
tiiat lie had .sent an aiiiiel liodv to caijtuii' him 



<!. Then where did 'on .<;o from tJie churi'h and when ? -A. They ki^pt un there till 
ad no lilankets or aiiythiny;, an<l a man by the name of Monkniaii 
> him and he .said he would see Kiel and see what could he done, 
'hilip < iainot s lum.,!-. » 

A. We remained there till tlie iiioriiin<{ of tliR 



(^. Anythiii;,' el.se '. 



had you any convi-rsation with the prisoner ? — A. Several. 

anythiinr of importance he said to you as to his intentions ? — 

\ that he had three enemies, and enumerated thelir as tlie( Joverii- 

o.. and the jiolioe. he also stated to nie he would j;ive the police 

nder and if they did not do so there wouhl he Moodshed ; on 

me he had heard the l.,i(^ut. (lovernor was on his wav up and 

\. I cannot remenilier what his ordinary conversation was, I 

... __1.1 1-' .. 1 , J. . . i. .... I it ..A ^ 



\ otticial. that he woulil ho 
(/ Auythini;- el>< 



talked alxiut as soon as t 



on one occasion he said lie wouhl not release me on anv account as I was a ( lovernmeiit 



il me as .i hostaye. 



inytliin^' i-ersona! to himself as to his nioti\<-s.' — A. Yes he 
hey had the c(aiirtry it would he divided u|i and .so forth, he 

wouhl ,:,'ive, he was ;toin.ii to '/we a .se\entli to the Indians, a seventh to the Half luced.s 

and I do'nt know what \ as to lieconie of the halaiice. 



(^. It was (inly t wo 
was all lit stated to me. 

i.j. \Va- anythini; si 



sevenths he was .uoinji to '/ivf away ajipareiitly '. — .\. Tliat 
id as to his intention-, or movements .' -A. No. not that I am 



aware of : on one occas ifin he wanted me to join the nioveiiient. he said lie would 
j»ilarantee me a )iosition 

(,l, What did he sa\ 
that they were to form. 

</ j>id he say aiiyt 

Q. I •id he say what 
particular conversation i 

Q. Wa.s there anytl 



n the service if I fell in with him 

.' — A. lie said he would iii\ f me a position in the (ioxernment 

liiiif ahout^the Tndian.s .' A. Xotliinjf out of tliejway. 

position they were takiii;; '! A. Xo, I do noi remenilier any 
hout the Indians. 



in,i{ said as to the lenfjth of time he had, lieen considering these 
matters .' .A. Yes, lie told iiie he had lieeii waitin;^ I •"> years and at hust his opportunity 
had come. 



\ 



',K Then where were you taken on the '2(ith ? -A. To Duck Luke. 

Q. And where were you imt there ?— A. We were put above .Mr. Mitchell's store, 
rtbove his house I siiould siiy. 

Q. That is witli the otlier jirisoueis ? A. Yes. 

(V. l>iti you see Kiel there iit all liefore t1ie fi-jht ? -A. No, the main hody had <;one 
to the t'i.y;ht when we arrived tliere. 

• ^>. Did you see liiui after tlie fightJ — A. I saw liini returnini; with the nioli. 

<^. Who was he retuniinj,' with? A. If my memory serves me Tiijht, lie was ou 
lutrsehaek. 

<^). How many men alx.ut him .' A. 1 should say hetween 300 or 400. 

<i>. How wfre they armed, if irmed .' .\. They were partly aimed with jjuns, riHes 
and so forth. 

(j>. Wliiii iliil ymi hear Kiel alter that .say anythinj; .' A. He eaiue up w ith a 
Avounded priMiner, the wounded volunteer, and In' "said ''he will l«e hetter in your hands 
aS he is one of yourselxes," or words to that ett'eet. 

<^>. Then what eonversation took |ihice, in which the pri.soner took part .' A. t)ii- 
another ociasion he <ame up and was anxious to tind out if Mr. Lawrence Clark was at 
tlu" I 'uck Lake tiirht. I don t know as there was anything else particularly said hy him. 

t.^. \\'as there anythini; said liv him as to which tired first .' A. Yes, he claimed the 
police tired first and then he told his men to tire, that is what he claimed. 

(). Did you hear him make that claim that he told his men to tin- .' .\. Yes. I did. 

*). \\';i> that all you heard him say .' A. That was all I renu'ndier at pre?.ent. 

t,i. Did you renuiin tliere any leiiLrth of time at Duck Lake.' A. We remained there 
(ill the mornin>; of the ;llst. 

t^l. What tiHik plaie in tin' intiival .' .V. ( )ne of tht; |iiisoners, SandcrMin. In- -.i-nt 
him to ( 'arlton. 

(^>. Who sent him .' .\. The primmer. 

(jl. Kor what pnr)iose ? .\. With a inessa;;e to Major Crozier, to m-ikI for x\\f dead 
,111(1 that he would not molest any Jiarties comiiii; for them. 

(,t. Do vou remiMnlier the day that was.' .\. A Friday. 

»,». The Friday after the iL'ht .' .\. Yes. 

ij. J>id Sanderson return .' A. Yes he returned on Sunday. 

i). Do vol! know personalh of the dead Keint,' taken away hy Sander-<on .' .\. I did 
not. 

(j>. Then was anythinj,' said liy Kiel at any time as to who were svith him in the 
nio\emeiit .' .\. .No. he never mentioned any names. 

i). N'ot names, lait what peo]>le .' .\. Yes he told me the Indians were all «ith hiia, 
.md the Half Kreed.s, Ixith French, Knj^lish and Scotch. 

i). Were with him ! .\. Were with him in the movement. 

(). Thtoi y<ai were taken on the .'Ust where.' -A. Taken to (.'arlton. ^ 

»^). All of you .' A. Yes. , ,^ 

t^. What was done with you there .' A. We were kept there till the morninj; of the 
;ird a])ril, and then we were carted or walked the liest part of the way to liatoche. 

Q. AVhere were you put in Batoche.' -A. In the Ipottom of a store on arriving, and 
ilie next dav we were iuo\ed ahove the store. V 



4 



0(j 



Q. You were kept kbovt- tlic ston' until wlicri ? A. We were kept al)Ovc the stiin- 
uiitil sonic exciti'Uifiit spraii<; up there iiiid we were put down the cellar a day or two and 
■we weiv taken out and jiut hack aj^ain and we remained there then till Thursday the 
H.'Jrd, and we 4 ere taken out of the cellar after, the Fish (.'reek ti-jht was over. 

Q. How weiv> you treated in the cellar ? — A. Our lian<ls were tied at iii^^ht. 

y. Had you any communication with Kiel ilurinu your stay at ISatoche, any talk 
with him ! — A. I sj)oke[to him several times ahout jjettinj,' released. 

Q. What did he say to that ,' —A. He refused it every time. 

C^. (Jive any reason ( — A. He said he niij^ht relea.se the other prisom-rs, hut I was 
a*(!overinnent otticial an^l he w<juld not release me. 

I tj. Did you ever see Riel armeil .' .\. I diil. 

i.}. With what .' A. It was a liHe of some kind. , 

(^. When .' — A. Prjor to tlie Fish Creek ti^dit, 1 cannot j,'ive yoii the date. 

(.}. Did Kiel say anythiiii; alxiut the Kisli ( 'reck liitht '. A. Yi-s, lie claimcil a \ ictiirv 
there. 

Q. Ill talkiiifj to you / .V. Not to me personally no. I heard of him clainiini,' the 
vietory, and that is all. 

(). Do you rememl>4r auylliinj; taking,' place on the day you were releaseil ! .\. Ves, , 
Kiel canie to the trap diKir, it was loaded with stones, he called Mr. Astley, and he savs 
come ijuick <;o and .see .Midrlleton, and he turned hack and says : " if our families are hurt 
in any wiiy, I will massiuie the jirisoners," addressin<r us all who were left in the cellar, 
six of us. 

ij. What occurri'd , after that .' A. Shoitiy after that wi' weie leleascd l)V (In,- 
grrival of the trooj)s. >, 

Mii. KlTZP.VTKlcK. We do not wish to ciu.ss examine the witness. 



(iEoHiiK Nkss, swoi^n examined hy Mr. Hurliidj^e. 

(.i. You live near liat xlie, Mr. Ness .' — A. Yes. 

(J. On which si<le of the river .' — A. On the East side of the ri\er. 

if. How far from Hatoche .' — A. .\liout two miles. 

Q. What is your oclcupation ? — A. A farmer. 

Q. -Are you a Justice of the Peace as well .'- A. Yes. 

(j. Y<iu know the prisoner .' —A. Yes. 

^l. When did you tiast see him .' A. SomeH here in the month of July, alioiit that 
time. 

i-l July i^^^<^ .'— A. Ye.s, \HHi. -^ 

if. Wliere did you .iee him then (--A. I cannot say exactly the ,tirst place I saw 
llini, hut I saw him arouind the settlement. 

Q. In the parish of St. Autoine .' - A. Yes. , 

Q. Was he living there at that time ; — A. Yes, .somewhere there.' 

t^. Were his wife unrj children living there to 'I — A. Yes. 

i}. Do you know if life had continued to live in the country since tlien ? A. Yes. 

(^. You know of his holding meetings ? — A. Yes, 1 helieve he was holding meetings. 



.57 

Q. Did you iitteiid any of those iiieptings ? A. I attfiuled one of them. 

Q. One of the first nieetinfjs ? — A. No, tliis was on the 24tli Fel>ruary. 

Q. Where was it lield f- A. In tlie cliiirch of St. Antoine. — ' 

(j. Did anytliin}^ of importance take jthiee at tliat meeting, and if m) tell us .'- .\. I 
did not continue all the way through tlie meeting, 1 left when it was aliout half way 
through. 

y. And yciu say it was cundiuted |iiiuci]ially in French .' A. Yes, it was conducted 
in French. 

ij. Vmi understand French .' .\.Yes, 1 knew what tlii'V were saying. 

(.,>. Was that meeting:; attended liy |iers(ins who afterwards remained loyal .' A. Yes, 
Beveral and also liy jM'rsons who were in the reliellion. ». 

Q. Did you take any j>art in tlie meeting yourself '. A. No, 1 was just listening, J 
lieai-d there was to lie a meeting, an<l I Just went out of curiosity. 

Q. Mali you any reason for not taking part .' .\. I ne\er <lid take any active part. 

Q. Had you any conversation with Kiel after he came into the country '. .\. Yes, i ' 
talked to him several times. 

y. in «hat month of ',S4 w<piild that I.e.' A. It might ha\e<tie>n tin- cml of .fuly < 
or August. I 

y. Wliat were you speaking aliout.' A. He was talking of trying to. assist the i 
IM>0|>h- ill their grievances, to have tlieir grievances riirlited. 

(). Speaking of getting uji an agitation .' .\. Yes, an agitation or a Kill ot' rights. 

(). I)id he at that time make aiiv sii,'gestions of using force .' A. No. 

i). Did you see him fie(pieiitly from that time foiHard .' A. Y«'.s. 

<^. You li\e ill the same neiglihourhiUHl .' A. Yes, I lia\eseeu him there very often. 

i). He attended church regularly .' A. Yes. 

4. Itid you see anything or hear anything to lead you to sup|>ose tliey wnuld take 
up arms .' A. No, nothing, till the 17th March. 

*). Now tell us what took jilace then .' A. As I was proceeding home in a cutter 1 
overtook one of my neighhours on the road, he was on foot, and as in the custom of that — 
part of the country I took him into my cutter as far a.S' my place ; he said :~" I lieleive 
(iiiliriel is e.vciting the Indians on < )ne Aiiow reserve." 1 went home, I tliouglit jirolmldy 
it might lie true, and I took and fed my horse and started for Carlton. 

Q. This was aliout three in the afternoon .' A. Aliout three, it was getting towanls 
sunset. 1 went to('arlton and informed Major C'rozier of what I had heard, 1 came there 
that night it was late, I suppose it was aliout twenty milen to drive there. I asked per- 
mission to camp^Vom the Major, and the next morning 1 .sa« him, and he told me if I 
heard anything more to try and let him know as soon as possilile. When I got hack to 
Duck Lake, Mr. Kerr told me: '"They are in arms already at the river, and they are going 
to take Ciirlton to-night." I thought it was my duty to .senfl back to the Major and inform 
him what was goiuj>H>n. i . 

Cjt. You did so ! A. I did so, I sent a letter liy a sptiial messenger. 

y. All tliis time your own family. was aliout two milej^ from Batoche .' A. Yes. 

Q. After sending the message, what did you do .'- A. I started for home to my 
family, as 1 was aii.xious aliout them. 

Q. What took place on your way lioiiie / A. On my way home, on the north side 



/ 



or west sidi- of the rivci-, iit \Viiiter"s store, I lieiird tliere ;i";iiiii that si iiiiiss iiieetiiij; was 
to be lielfl that evening. 

Q. Tliere was sioiiietfliiiiji really .-.tirriiii,' then ? — A. Yes, there was snniethiiiji real 
in the matter. I deteitiniued to '^n on. 

t^. Did you do. so?-- A. Yes. As I crossed the river, I met anothei: man, he was under 
arms already. He said ; "they have taken u|i aims ulieady." I said it was veiv foolish. 
Take the advice of a fri^-nd, .says I; and leave that thinj,' alone. So I continued on my way, 
and when I ;;ot oppositje Kerr Bros.'s store, 1 saw a liii; irowd tlieri\ 

t^. I.s Kerr HrOs.V store on the Kast or West side .' — .\. On tlie Kast side. 

Q. Or on the Souflh side, as some say .' — A. Yes. As 1 ,:,'ot close to them I saw 
them coming on foot t^ the mad. The store is perhaps 70 or f<() feet from the roa<l. 
(iabriel Itumont was iii front. He said ; •• IJonjour." I took his hand, and I said ; " ( ialiriel 
wliat is it you wish .' It is not for nothinj; you stop me in this manner.' Me said, •■ where 
have you lieen to"? I jiaid : ••! have lieen to l>m'k Lake. And he said : You ha\e been 
doing something, you have lieen further than Duck Lake." I sai<l : ••(laliriel, it is none 
ot your business w here; I ha\ e been. Well, he says, .1 will tiike yiai prisonei'. I says : 
" You can do wliat you ])lease. 1 say.-. : If you want to kill me, 1 am ready." I askeil him if 
he was at the head of attairs. He said " no. Mr. Kiel (tin- prisoner here), was at the head. 
He .said : 1 will ha\ e to keep you prisimer till hi-. arri\al." 

Q. How- many jH'ople were with Dumoiif .' — A. There wire proliabiy 411, ."hi nr (io. 

<j. And they wertj piinci]ially your in-inhbiiis ? — .\. Neighbor.-, and Indians. 

Q. People you kni-w well .' — A. Yes. 

(^. And .some Jndians .' — A. Yes. 

<^. How iiianv Injiians do vou think were there.' A. 'i'here niii;ht lra\e been I'O 
■or l'.">. ' " I ' 

'^*i. I'id you say anytjiing to these people/ A. I asked them who was taking me 
prisoner whether they nsslsted (iaiiriel or mit, and Ijo one would answer me. I .-.aid it 
was a sery foolish thing they were doing, that they wouhl all In- killed if they went cm 
\yhii it. if they meant rebellion. 

Q. You made a s||ieeeli to them ! — A. Yes. They said : There is some old men in the 
liouse. A young man said that. He said : you had better go and ask them if they will take 
him ])risoner. They went back to the house and brought along two men. 

<^. Who were they ! — A. Donald Ross and Clice Touroml. 'I'liumnd made a jump 
for my horse, and caught him by the rein and Itoss con.sented. 

<^. The peciple all con.sented to your arrest .' — A. ^'es. 

• ^. Where did they take you to I — A. Hack to the store about .se\eiity or eighty feet 
from the road, (iabriel .says : •■ You can get ilow n and warm yourself." So f went in and 
warmed iny.self. While I was in the house. I heard the peoj)le .saying in French •■thev 
Jnwe taken Captain (iagnon." 

<^. Who is lie .' — A. .\ ca]itain of the police force stationed at Carlton. All the 
people, went out. I went mit with them, I saw .Mr. Lash. 

Q. Ffad the prisoner arri\ed at this time .' — A. After I went out, 1 sawMr. lliel, 
and he was saying to .Mr. Lash : " Have you any arms?" Lash said: •• Nck I never carry 
any iiniis." 

Q. Who a|)peare(l to be in command after the pri.soner arrived .' — A. Mi-. Kiel told 
nie, he says: " You go down to the ehureh." And we started almost immediately for tlie 
• ehurdi. 

Q. Did every one apjiear to obey him ? A. Yes. 



: .5!» ^ . 

Q. Diiiiiont and all tlip rest ? — A. Yes, 

(J Toll us aliout their taking you to the ihuivli ? — A. Whvu we got to the ehurch, 
they were in the froiit of the ehuri-h, Mr. Riel eoinnienced sjiying he was a propliet, that 
lie could foresee eveijts. 

■Q. Before that, how many men were in anus? At the tiuie you and Nash were 
taken prisonei's to the church ? — A. Well there might lia\ e Keen aliout "lU. 

Q. How were they armed ? — A. With guns. C 

Q. Had any of them riHes ? — A. They might have liad rilies, I did not take niuc" 
notice. 

Q. They were armed with tire arm> ? — A. Yes. - - 

Q. Who was in charge of the church ? — A. Revd Father Moulin. 

Q. Did you see him on that occasion ? — A. When the crowd got to the church he 
came out and lie wished to speak to the ]>e(>ple. Mr. Riel said : " No we Wont let him speak. 
Take hiin away, take him away, we will tie him."' 

Q. lie threatened to tie him '! — .\. Yes. He said : ■•Shall we keep him inisoner ?" 
Some of them said : " No, we will put a guard over him.'' 

Q. l)id he say anything ahout taking possession of the church at the same tim«- ? 
— A. Yes, Hie! .said : '• I will take possession of the chiifch.'' Father Moulin said : '• I 
protest against you louchin<; the church." Riel .says : '• Look at him, he is a iivotestaut." 

Q. 'J'hi' jirisoner said that "' - A. Yes. '-(io away " says Riel, "go away. ' 

Q. What ha])pened then ? — A. They went ilito the church then and ordered us to 
go into the church. 

Q. Ordered you, prisoners? — A. Ye.s, us priscuiers. Mr. IViel JuiLpcd into my Cutter 
as 1 was going to the church, he howed very jiolitely to me, and said to take my lioi-se. 

Q. How long were you in the < luirch ?— .\. Vrolialily a (|Uarter of an hour or half 
an houi'. 

Q. Wheiedid t]ie\ tak<- you to.'' — A. Acios> the ri\er. to \\'alter and liaker'.s store. 

(j. Where did they put y<iu then ? — .\. rpstair.-<. 

Q. Were there any |iriM>ner> in that stoi'e « hen you arrived ? — A. They took ^fr. 
Lash and Tompkins. 

Q. l)id you tind 
1 his a.ssistant Mi 

Q. Were you kept under guard at Walters and ISaker's store ? — A. Yes, all the 
time. 

Q. That would lie on the night of the ISth still ? A. Yes. 

Q. Tell me if anything of imjiortancc took ])lace that night ? — A. They took Louis 
Marion a jirisoner on the iHtU, aluait nine or ten o'clock, and during the night L- heard 
some one call down stairs to go and cut the telegraph wires. 1 heard a noi.se a.s if they 
were going, and then seveial hours afterwards I heard them saying they saw a lantern, 
that some one was repairing the telegra)ih. 1 lieard them as if they were starting oft" again. 

Q. Did they hring in an/ more prisoners that night ? — A. They hrought hack Peter 
Toinjikins and McKean, who Ivid been repariug the telegraph. ■ 

Q. What took ]ilace on the 19th? A. (»n the morning of the HHli, they. sent iw 
hack to the church again. 

Q. Were you kept there all that ilay ? A. Yes. 



Q. l)id you tind any juisoners when you got there? — A. Mr. Walters wa.s a j>risoiier 
with his a.ssistant Mr. Ifannij'in. 



/ 



60 



(^. As jtrisoners ? 



A. Yes, as prisoiiei-K. 



fv 



y. Was tlip prisolicr giving orders ? A. Ycsi, he ap]>eiii'e(l to be at tlif lifad of 
art'aiis. Uf was j;iviii^ oi'ders. 

Qi What was tlif> chief event of that day as faf as you can reniemlier ?- A. Me was 
gi\ing orders to go and take William Itoyerand (Jliarles Nolin prisoners. 

Q. l)id you hear him say why they \w\<.- to he taken (irisoners '. A. I>ecau>e they 
would not take up arras. 

Q. Jlid lie say anytliing aiiout, hecau.se they had lieiMi mo\ers u]) to that time.' - 
A. Hecajuse tliey had heeii movers, and had left it at the time of taking up arms. 

(/ Was Xolin trie;l .' A. Ahout his trial I canno( say exactly, I heard liiel -iiying 

-lie ought to he shot or that tliey shouhl shoot him.: 

i 
t^. You understood Xolin and lioyer were tojhe shot .' A. Yes, liotli of thenj. 

Q. Anil lieoilH.se they would not join the iiio\i'ment in taking up ;irms .' .V. In not 
taking up arms. i j 

(). NVIiere dill they take you from the diurchj.' .\. In tiie evening they nrtereil to 
. ' take our woril of Iioihm" we would not try to escaijie, and they gave us a hook to |iut our 
names down, and they told us we would he moiei comfortalde down at ( larnot'.-. house, 
. and they took us down there, with the hig guard In. addition to our word of honor. 

Q. < 'oming to the ".'(ttli the ne.\t day, can yojii tell us anything of impoitiince that 
. occured i>n that day .' .V. Yes, somewhere ahoutt tlie middle of the day Kiel i iinie down 
to see the prisoners. 

(). While you were at dinner .' — .\. Yes, while we were at dinner. 

(). And addressetl you all .' A. Yes addressed us all. 

Q. Did lie say anything to any of you particularly .' A. Well he told .Mr. Walters. 
Mr. Walters asked liim why he was kee))ing him jirisoner, if he would not give liiiii his 
liberty, and Uiel said he would think over it, and that he would give him his liberty. 
He says to Lish : " We will ort'er you the same jiosition in our (io\ernment which vou 
liolil under the J)omiuion as Agent, that is if you will accept of it. ' 

Q. .\fter that did he take you to the council house .' - A. He told me he w.inted 

Hie at the council iiou.se, so 1 went to the council house. 

t). What did he say to you there .' — A. He told me he was itoing to j,'ive me my 
libeity and tliey would reail my penalty tor iiiy ciiine, my offence. 

{.). Did lie make any t'urtlier proiiiises tliere I— A. Yes, he would let me go on con- 
dition tli'at--I would not do anythilig against the movement. 

y. WImt did you say to that ? A. I said 1 piefcned lie wnuld lea\e a nuaid over 
lue, that I could hardly consent to that, r 

Q. Was aiiytliing else .saiill did you see JiaNime Lepine there .' — .A. Yes. I .saw 
Maxiiiie Lepine there. 

y. l)id lie take jiart in any conversation you remenilier .' — A. Yes, lie was one of 
.the councillors. , , ' 

Q. Do you remember anything he said .' — A. No, I cannot remenilier now. 

Q. When you told him .you would rather he would keep a guaril o\ er you, what 
took j)hice '[■ A. They took me in and read my crime to me. 

Q. Wliat was your crime ? — A. Communicating with the jiolice. 

Q. %Vas this before the council .' A. Yes. 

Q. Who apjieared to be in the chair? A. Albert Aionkman and (iuriiot. 



(51 

«.». Wliiit was (Janiot iutiiig its? A. Secretary of the council. 

tj. They read over to you your otleuce ? A. Yes, tliey read over to me inv ofleiice 
5vnd luy penalty. ' 

»i>. What was your offence ? A. Coniniunicatini; with the police, and insulting Ga- 
liriel I>uni<int. _ 

I}. What was your penalty ? A. They took my hor.se and cutter and robe. 1 

<J. They were to he confiscated? A. Yes. 

. 'Q. You were to he jfivpu your lilierty on tlie condition that you would do iiothinj; 
H;;ainst them ? — A. Yes. 

I Q. That you would l>e neutral ? A. Yes, I had no alternative, I had to take it. 

<4>. Your wife And family were at home? A. Yes, when I arrived home that eveiiinj;, 
1 found my wife in a jjreat state of excitement ahout me, it ai)pears Sioux Indians had 
l»een tln-oujih tliere and told her I was to l>e shot. 

Mil. (iliiCKXsiiiKi.D.s. ' There should he a limit to this hearsay e\ idence. 

•J. From the 20th March till the 14th .M ly where were you? A. I was at home. 

fi. Where you witliin the line of j;uard>. of the rebel position ?— A. Yes. 

Q. You had fi-e(|uent occasion of seeing; armed parties? A. Ye- they werepassinj.; 
«iul repassinj; all the time. 

'.y Did you see Indians in arms too? .\. Yes. 

t^>. l)id you have any of the rebels ipiartered on you during that time? A. Yes, 
they tiild me my property was public, every body's j)m])erty was public. 

m. The iirisoMir and others with him took wliate\er thev saw fit ? A. Yes. • 

*). Did they ever speak with you aliout what they intended to do, or you with them ? 
.\. Well after tiie Duck Lake ti<,'lit most of them were frightened. They saw thev had 
jiiit their foot in it, and they did not know how to yet out of it. 

*.}. Do you know the day fif the h'i.sh Creek fight ! -A. Yes. 

<^. What date was that? A. On the L'4th of April. 

iy How far is Fish Creek from your iuniie .^ — A. About twelve liiiles. . . 

«^>. Did you see the reliel.s going ibiwii to Fish Creek ? — A. Yes, 1 saw them. 
i^. Did vou see tliein 'returoing? — A. Yes. 

Q. Had you any conversation with any of them on returniu<j ? A. Ye.s, when they 
were returning there was a wounded man brought into my house, one who was wounded 
at Fish Creek. 

l^. Did you see Riel among the men who went down ? — A. No I did not. I could 
not see them well enough to identify them, I would not e.\ pose myself that much, I^was 
hiding. 

Q. Did'nt vou see Riel returning from the direction of Fish Creek liefore the tight '. — 
A. No, I did not. '■ t 

Q. Did you ever see Riel armed ? — A. I saw him with a revolver. . - 

y. On what occasion was that ? — A. That was while I was ii prisoner. 

By Mr. Fi'Izpathick. 

Q. You saw Riel in connection with the present ditHculty for the first tinie la.st July 
or August? — A. Yes, somewhere ill July or August. 



Q. You knew the ciivuinstiim'i's uiiiU'r wliii'li lif riiiiii- into tlu' country.' A. I 
iM'lievt'il 111' was scut for, us tar as I In-aid. 

(^. At till- tiuic you first saw liini, tlit>ic was a i-crtain auiomit of a;,'itatiou in tlK-^ 
country, was tlii'rc not f A. Yi's Sir. 

Q. The limitation was to oljtaiii l)y constitutional nn-aiis to ri'di-css iti-rtain ;,'rii'\aiK-fs 
that tli<" Half lirwds ].>r«*tcniU'(l to exist .' .\. Yes. 

(^. That aL^itation had hccii .L'oini^ on for .somi' years .' A. Yi's. 

Q. Kiel toUl you when you first saw him that hi- had conit' for the juuiio.se of takin.:; 
iKirt in thfjit a;{itation at the re<|Uest of the person.s interestejl .' A. NVell, 1 couhi not 
sjiy lie exactly s.iid that, luit 1 uu<hM>toiid lie came foi- that purjiose. 

Q. You saw iiim frei|uently from -/^uly last u)i to the month of .March .' .\. Yes. 

(^. l>id you, (kirini; all that time, hear anything; either fmm himself or any i>ersoir 
el.se whichy<\i)uhl lead you to lielieve that any thin-; in the shape of a reliellion was in- 
tended liy him ' ■\. No Sir, not till the 17th of .Maivli. 

Q. Duriiiir all that lime he lived in the country, and took part in all the movements 
that took place J A. I lielie\i' he <iid. 

Q. ll was a matter of common rejiort he louk |iart in all th(isc mo\ ements / .\. Yes. 

(). Y'(ai iie\er heard any extraordinary remarks passed with ri'i,'ard to him until Ihi- 
. 17th March ! A. No. 

Q. ^'oM kiiou that diti'eren.t |ictitiiiiis hail ln'cn in lin-ulation in the countiyand 
htt<H»een forw'arlled til Ottavva .' .\. 1 lielie\e they had. 

i). You wen' alsiiaware that as lateas the moiitli of Keljiiiarv last, a petition was pre- 
pared under the diiection of tlie prisoner, whicii was sij<ne<l l>y yourself, and which was 
•sent to Ottawa, or of wliicli you ajiproved ! A. I mijilit have ajiproved of it, lait I never 
siijiie*! it. lie showed iiie a petition, some time in .August, I think ; hut I never heard of 
it heiiiLS taken around to !«• si;rni(l. 

Q. |)i(l vou hear of anytliinj;- in Keliiuary .' .\. No. 

(^. .\t the time of that meetini; which you referred as haviiij; taken place on the 
"J4tli Kehruary .' .\. No, I hail heard the (ioveinment had refused |{ii-l, that they wmUd 
not have anything to ilo with him. 

(^. Do vou know whether any answer had Keen j^iven'to any petition that had heen 
.sent ill ! Any answer liy the tiovernment .' .\. 1 lielieve not. I never heard of any. 

{). It was a matter of common report jirevious to the 17th March, tliat the police 
force was hein^ iticreasetl ! \. Yes, there was soiiie talk of it. 

(/ That was ;^eiierally considered aiiionj; the.people there as lieiiif? the answer to 
their petition '. \. I i-ould not say. t : 

t^. Was not that the jjeneral opinion formed liy the puMic report circulated at that 
time; .\. r couhl not say. 

t). -Vfter Kiel ciine into the country at the rei|uesfc of the Half-hreeds do you know, 
«(f vour own kno.wle.dj»e, that he wa.s-very poor ! A. Y''es. 

Q. You know a suhscription was made up for the purpcse of enahliil!,' him to exist 
in the country ! A. Ye.s, a suliscrii>tioii was made, 

Q. You know he also desired to return to Montana aj,'ain ? A. Yes, there was 
.soiiiethiiif^ said ahout him returniiij^ to Montana. 

Q. You said that the fii-st time you heard of anything in the shape of an armed 
rel)ellioii was on the 17th March ? A. Yes. 



(•>:i 



I 



i|> 1 aclK' UIKl liIKllO]> 

oil iiil I'iiities rininectt'd with tlie Komliii C'atliolic 



Q. I'j) to tliiit tiiiii- till Tf had 1k-cu nothing of tliat kind .sj)okeii of lu anyway t<i- 
youv kuowlod'^j' .'- A. No, tlicre were some reports in the j)aj)ers. 

i). Hut anion;; till' ]ico|iie, anion;; your iifijililiors ? A. No. 

g. Whfii did yon tirst sec Hid after tlie ITtli; A. On the IStli. 

Q. You saw liini at tlie time hi' took possession of the L-liuivh ' A. Yes. 

g. You heard what lie said to tlie priest at that time .' A. Yes. 

ij. \'\i to that time hud vou heard him make anv lemaik deroj^atorv to the priests? 
—A. Yes. 

y. When? .\. In tlie month of Felnuaiy. 1 think. / 

g. Towards the end of Keliruary ? A. Stmnjwlieie in Feliruary. 

g. .\t that time did he not lia\e a dirtioidty with Father Moulin, jiist state'what '^ 
that dittieiilty was ' .V. Ili- arciiseil lii-lio)) Tai-h<' and Hislio)! tJrandin of lieins; tlieives 
and roj,'ues. 

(.). Made a ;;eneliil onslauuht 
Churei .' .\. Yes. 

lA hidii t vou rlearly understand at that time that this man deelared Jiuhlielv that 
he hady-eased to lielon;; to tin- Hi.iiian Catliolir (liurc-h .' A. No. 

g.\|)idii't he say lit that time that the juiest was entirely outside of the ihuivh 
that he kvas a protestant .' A. No. 

i}. What aliout the word, protestant, you u^ed in your examination in i-hief .' — 
A. He said that on the ITtli of Maivh. 

i}. The dirticiilty with Father .Moulin was in .March .' A. Yes, and in Feliruary. 

g. In .Mai ill he said the ]iriesi was a protestant or something to that etiWi ' 
A. Yes. 

g. Did vou lonsider at that time he acted as he had actetl when you first knew him 
in .lulv or .\ii;;usl with refeieiue to the priests and religion.' — A. No, he acted \ ery 
much otherwise. 

Q. Now, can your niemory enable you to .say what he .said at that time on the 17t|i 
March, ill his ditliculty with Father Moulin ? A. It was on the ISth March. 

g. State what took place, the words that were used and how he iH-ted on that 
occasion .'-.\. He said the s)iirit of (io*! was in him and Father Moulin said he was 
making a schism aj.'aiiist the (/huich, aii(| Kiel said Rome had tumliled, Roiw. •'st loiiJi!-', 

<,•. Proceed if you )ilease, he said the! Pope of Rome was not legally Pope ?. A. ^ es. 

' y. He said the ejii-copate spirit lilad left Rome and come into the North-West 
Territories .' A. No, he did not say that. 

(j. hid li(^ say anything of that kind? A. He said the spirit of (led wa> in him 

and that Home had tuniMed, and he could toll future events. 

Q. Did he state the reason wjiy Rome had tunihled ? — A. No, he did not give the 
reason. 

y. During .lulv, Au;;ust, September anij Octolie;, immediately after his return to 
this country he attended church as Roman Catholic geiierally do ? — A. Yes, he acted very 
devoutly. 

Q. The tirst time you heard of the rehellioii, heard it talked of was at this time of 
the 17th March, and it is on that day he gave e.Ypression to this* extraordinary language 
you have just told us al)Out ?--A. Yes, on the Ifth of March. 



Ill 



ill' 



I G4 

I 

"K VJllilllI«»<I I)J- All-. HtJKliRtlKlhl. 

T Stood tllC SfOVerillliejlt had refused Mr. 

I()0(( eiio |o' 

Riel, V^lliderstjiiicl you to Ue refei-riii<^ to ]Mi-. Itiel's owti pcrsoiin.1 cLfLiitis, i» thn.t ^vUl^t you 

?— A. Ko, I saltl tliG soveinineut liatl doclined to iurede to Kiel's terms ? 

^"^. You Wfl'e I'efeiTilll' to Kiel's o\\ ii elaiuis i ^A. Ve.s, fi-oiii wliiit I iiiKlei-^itotxl, it 

his personal claiiiis. 

The Court tlien od.ioui iif-dtill July 29tli. 



Uegiiia, Wednesday, July "il'tli, IMf). 

,' ■ Ooui-t r«'tisseniJ»lesi at 10 A.iVI. 

Geoih;k Kkrr, sworn, exaniine<l by Mr. Casgraiu. 

Q. You live at Batoelie, I believe ?-A. Yes. 

Q. How lontf have you lived there? — A. I went tliere in Novemher, in 1S84. 
Q. iJo you know the prisoiiei* ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Weil Itetween November W\ and the outbreak of the rebellion, what hap- 

jjeiietl at Batoclip .' Did anvtliiiij; happen that vou know of? — A. No, nieetiiiij.s wei'i- 
lieUl. " " * 

Q. Wliilt ^^a^s the tir.st intiinatioii you had of the outhreak of the relielliDU ? A. 

Meetings were held aUernatively at dittereiit places, itiul tliey called at our store. 

(^. Wlio lielfl the nieeting.s ? -A-, I do not know, tlie couneil, I j^ues.s. 

Q. Tliev tailed at your .store ?- .\. Yes, they called there, we were dealiiifi with 

them. 

Q. Who were tiiey !- .\. Mr. Vandal and Mr. Norliert Oelorme, I do not know 
anv more t»f tlieni t think. 

flC^Wlieii was this ; A. In January and Fehruary. 

(^. You keep store at Batoclie ? — A. Yes. 

(^. In partnership with your brother John Ken? — .\. Ye.s. 

Q. What did they do at your store ? —A. We traded witli them for cattle and furs. 

Q. Did they call at your store after this? — A. They always called at the .store and 
traded there as a general thintf. ^ 

Q. What was the first intimation you had of any outlueak or insurrection * — A. 
The ttrst intimation of any outbreak was on tlie lf<thof Mardi. 

Q. Wliat happened on tjie 18th March ? -A. On the 17th March there was a ru- 
mor circulated around the store that a meeting was to I>e held at Batoche. 

I Q. By whom? -A. (Jabriel Dumont and Riel, the pri.soner. 

Q. Well, what happened then ? — A. That is on tlie 17th, on tlie 18tli lie came down 
to the store. 

Q. Wlio came down to the store ? — A. The prisoner himself. | 

Q. Who with?-— A. There was a good many followers of his. 

Q. Can you give the names of any ? — A. Y'es, I can. I can name .some, Jean Bap- 
tiste Vandal, Joseph Vandal, that is all I can name. 

Q. How many were there ahout ? — A. Ahout 50. 

Q. What did they do at the store ? — A. Riel came into the store and demanded my 
guns and ammunition, just asked for them. 



65 

<J. -vvi,n.t ,Ii<I ^ou aav 7 A. 1 told hini thev were up oil the ShCjf, ^..., .,^.,.., ,,„,■ 

"witK cross liea.nis and tKo g^uiis ^vere oil tlio cross l>ea.ms, I ,tol(l liiiii to t»ke tlieiii. 

(J. Oul tney iake ineiu ? — A-. PKe Halt-UreGcis jumpfvl fLt-ound to take tlic^m, mul^ lie 

Kjii«l, *' wlit> is l>o»s l»ere'* 1 I told Him 1 \v-a.s, a.ncl lie su-id *• tUev lia.ve ii«y ri-^tit to "O l>e]iilicl 

jijor coiiiiicr." 

Q. Were ; 

Q. How d 

Q. What happened I— A. He went away. 

Q. Who went fLway ? — A. The prisoner. lie told ine then, lie says '* jjcive my men 
M'lijit they want, and eliarye it." 

Q. To whom 1—A. lie did not say to wlioin. I toldhiiii to take wiiatever lip wanted 
in the .store. 

Q. l)ifl he fonie liack to your store ? — A. Xo, he did not t-ome (l»aek at all. I wrote 
liiiii a letter tin* next mornin*^ to know it" iiiy brother uud I could yo doM'ii about three miles 

to tiiid out where our t-attle were. 



Q. Were you boss there at that time ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How (li<l you allow tliem to take your guns 1 A.. I told them to take theill. 



Q. Did lie 






ou permission 1 — -A. Yes, he sent up word that I could go. 



Q. When they went to your store the first time, were the men armed .' — A. Yes, 

they were all armed. 

Q. Hiiw iiuicii animuiiition did tliey;j;et at your store? — A. A kej; of powder and six 
English double barrel shot guns. 

Q. Auytliiiii,' else ? — A. Ye.s, a liox of Ballard ItiHe cartridges. 

Q. He j,'a\ e you permission to go and get your cattle ? — A. Yes, to go ti\e miles. 

Q. Did you j;o ? — .\.. Yes, we went up and my brotlier and I stopped .ibout two 
Lours I tliink at Pellar's liou.se, tliat is about three miles from where tlie store was ; when 
we were coming l>ack, we met a load of Half-l)reed women and Indians with packs on 
their Imcks. 

Q. Did you recognize any of them ? — A. They had some frying jians which were ours. • 
I .said to my brother : "Jack, these are ours." He said "no." I said " I think they are."' 
I went to one of the women and asked her and she said they had liroken into the store 
and taken everything out. We walked pii down to the store and when we went into the 
store there ere four or live Indians pulling nails out of the beams, the store was upside 
down and tlie Fairbanks scales were turned upside down, nothing was left in the store 
at all 

Q. What day was that ?— A. On tlie liSth. 

Q. Did anything happen on the 19th ! — -No, that was the lf>th. 

Q,. Is that all tliat happened on the I'Jtli ?— A. Yes, that is all that happenetl outhe 
19th. 

Q. Do you know anything else that liappened that day ? — A. No. 

Q. What hajipened on the subsequent day, the 20th March 2— A. No, J don't know, 
I was not allowed to go away. I [jroiuised Riel I would not leave my place of business 
and 1 kept myself reserved. 

Q. Did the pri.soner give you any oi-ders ? — A. No, he asked me if I would promise 
him not to leave my place of business. I told him I would and I kept my word. 

Q. Did you leave your place of business ? — A. No. 

Q. Did you stop there all the time ? -A. I went down to Mrs. Venn's 

Q. What for 1 — A. I was stopping there. " , 

. 5 



66 , 

Q. Did you get liack from Mi-s. Venn on the 19th? — A. Yes. 
(^. Dili anything happen to you on the 20th ? — A. Yes. 
■ Q. Were you always at liberty there ? — A. Yes. i 

Q. Do you know anything about tlie council tliat was formed there at Garnet's ? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Under what circumstances did you become acquainted with the council ? — A. I 
do not know as I can you give any int'orniation. I know tlie wliole of tlieni pretty well. 

Q. Were you at any time arretted ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Whom by ? — Yes, by Solomon Boucher, Modeste Rocheleau. 

Q. Were they armed ? — A. Yes. , 

''Q. Where w«re you taken to ? — A. To 'Sir. Ludger Oareau's house, a Frencli 
C'lHUulian's house. 

<^. Whom (lid you see there? — All the men were there. * 

~Q. Who were there? — A. I cannot tell you all the names, Norbert Delorme, Charles 
Nolin and Hoyer who keeps the store there. 

(,». William Boyer?— A. No. • . 

Q. Jean-Baptiste Boyer ? — A. No. 

Q. Joseph Boyer ?^— A. No. 

Q. A man of tliat name who keeps the store ' - A. Yes. i 

Q. How many were in that room? — .\. I su|)posB 50 or 60. 

Q. Wei-e there any arms around '? — A. They were standing at the door with those _ 
double barrel shot guns. 

Q. Did you see the prisoner there 1 — A. No, I did not see him, he was upstairs. 

• ,». How do you know? A. I met him when 1 went in tirst. 

(^, Did he say anything to you ? — A. No, not just tlien. 

'j. Any time on that same day did you see him ?— A. Yes, he came downstairs and 
told the council that he had always found us very decent fellows, he said of course they 
rnay have done something that has escapsd my memory, but he .says " if tln-y have, excuse 
them." 

Q Who was in command ? — A. Gabriel Dumont as far as I was concerned. 

Q. In connnand of what ? — A. He appeared to be in command of the whole outfit, 
as they say in this country. 

Q. What did the prisoner do there ? — A. I dont know, he was upstairs, when he 
came down he came to the council and he says " perhaps something has escaped my 
memory, if there has," he says "excuse tliem." And he says: "These prisoners are in j'our 
hands, doas you like witli them." And he said : "They always acted kindly with nie." 

Q. How was this council constituted ? — A. Philippe Garnot was at the head of the ' 
. table. 

Q. What was he doing ? — A. He was there. He had a book, sitting down. He got 
up and said : " Messieurs les conseillers, these men have come here and we want to know 
what to do with them." He talked like that and they came over. 

Q. Who came over t— A. Dumont and Delorme. 

Q. Did you say the council was sitting there ? — A. Yes, 

Q. They were in session ? — A. Yes. 



67 

Q. Were any charges nuule against you l)eforethe council ? — A. Yes, three charges. 

(^. Wliat were tliey ?— A. One charfjo was that my In-other had telp;,'raphed with 
George Ness to major Crozier, another ciiarge ma<le was tliat we wanted to ;,'et our cattle 
away from IJatoche, and that we wanted to get to the ti-lcgrajih otHeers and evade the 
vigilance of the police. 

Q. What action was taken upon those charges ? — A. They could not pro\e anvthing 
and they let us go. 

Q. I understowl you to say that the prisoner was in the house all the time ? A. 

Yes, up.stairs. 

Q. Did he know what was going on ? — A. Yes. No, I don't know, he was upstairs • 
with the i)riest. 

i}. He came down you said ? — A. Yes. 

<j. l*id you answer these charges .' — A. Yes,. of cour.se:' 

t^. You were aci|uittcd ! — .\. Yes. 

ii, What was the state of that j)art of the country '/—^.\. < Jreatly agitated. 

l^. Is not that a mild word ? Was it only greaitly agitated, what do you mean ? 

A. I mean that the whole country was e.vcited, something like that. 

Q. What do you mean by excited ':? A. Thilt every man was taking care of liimself ' 
as near as possible. 

(^. I)id you see any jieople under arms, other tlian those you saw in this council I — 
A. Yes, all around the council chamber they were under arms. . ' 

By Mr. Fitzpatiuck. ■ , , 

Q. Wiicn did you tirst see Mr. Kiel i — A. I met him in November. 

. Q. of last year ] —A. Yes. 

Q. You were aware he was in the country from November up till March, till the 
figlit at liatoche >—A. Yes. 

Q. Did you have occasion to attend any of the meetings which were lu-ld in the 
country during that time ? — A. No, I did not. 

Q. Do you know the nature of those meetings of your own knowledge? — A. No, I 
do not. 

Q. Do vou know for what jiurpose they were held ! — A. No. 

Q. Did you at any time attend any meeting at which Riel was present f — A. Yes. 
Q. What time was that J — A. I think in January. . 

Q. Last year ?— A. Ye.s. \ 

Q. Can you remember what took place at that meeting, was it a political meeting 1 — • 
A. No. 

Q. What kind of a meeting was it ? — A. A presentation to Riel of some money. 
Q. Money gathered by tlie people of that place ? — A. Yes. 

Q Did you hear anything there about the Government in reference to the grievances ? 
— A. No, not a w ord. ■ 

Q. What took place at that meeting ?— A. My brother and I were invited to go to 
the meeting, I gave one dollar toward it myself. We were invited to the supjier, and the 
prisoner was there. I guess the whole people were there. There were about 150 in 



: 68 ' ' 

Baptiste Boyer's liousp. There was a pretty good spi'ead, after the tiling was started he 
made ine and my brother sit at the first end of the table. 

Q. Were any speeches made at the table ? — A. Yes, Riel proposed the health of Our 
Sovereign Queen Victoria. 

Q. Riel did that ?^A. Yes. ■ 

' Q. Did you see the prisoner after that meeting? — A. I saw him when I left tliat 

niglit. /; 

Q. Did you see hini any other time between the time after that m«(^ting and the 
10th March?— A. No, I did not. 

Q. Did'nt ha\-e any conversation witli him at all ? — A. No. ' 

Q. Have had no intercour.se with him 1 — A. Not since tlien. ; ' » 

Q. Never attended any meeting held by him of the council ? — A. N6'. 

; (). Do you remenil)er a meeting alwut tiie L'4th February, at the church ? — A. No, 
I was not tlicri' at all. 

(). You arc ijuite certain about that ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You said tTiese people broke into your house the time you went away for your 
cattle? — A. Yes. 

(^. Did the prisoner a[Pi)rove of their doing that, did he counsel it ? — A. No, I wrote 
to him tlie next morning about it, and I got a letter liack saying that he did not advise 
them in any way at all. 

Q. Protesting against it ? — A. Yes, protesting against it. 

Q. Did Riel take your part before the council ? — A. Yes, he took my part. 

Q. Did you notice anything peculiar about Riel at the time you saw him, did he 
give you any explanation as to his plans or programme? — A. N,o, he never spoke about 
that at all. 

Q. He never mentioned his political programme? — A. No. 

Q. Never gave you to understand what he proposed to do ? — A. No, I did not 
know him very well, only sometimes to meet him. ' 

Q. At the meeting where he proposed the health of tlie Queen, do you remember 
under what circumstances he proposed it? — A. No. Phiiipp Garnot came with that paper 
and I put my name down for one dollar, and tliey asked me to go down. 

Q. Riel, you say, proposed the health of the Queen at that meeting ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was there any treason talked ? — A. No, not a word. 

Q. They were all pleasant together as loyal subjects ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been in that section of the country ? — A. About a year. 

Q. You knew that there were meetings being held alternately in the vicinity of 
BatocTie ?^A. Yes. i 

Q. By all the people ?— A. Yes. 

Q, You knew that Nolin took an active part in these meetings ? — A. Yes. 



V 



69 
Henry Walters sworn, examinecl liy Mr. Scott : 

Q. Where were you living; in ^March last t — A. Batoche. 

(I. What was your occupation ? — A. Keeping store. 

Q Was it your own store ? — A. I hiid a partner. 

Q. \\'hat was your partner's name ? — A. Baker. _ 

Q. And the firm's name ? — A. Walters iii- Baker. 

Q. On wliich side of tlie river was your store ? — .\. On the West side. 

Q. Is there any liouses there l)esi(U's your own store ? — .V. Tltere is onlv one house 
close, l>elonj;inj; to the tirui. 

Q. Batociie proper is on tlio Kast side 1 — A. Most of the stores are there.! 

Q Were you there on the 18th of March 1 — A. Yes. , • 

Q. Did aiiythint,' happen that day ? — Yes, chat evening this thing l)roke out. ■ 

Q. What hroke out? — A. The reliellion. The tir.st act was committed. 

Q. What intimation had you of the breaking out of the rebellion .' — A. About .six 
o'clock in the evening of the IStli of ifarch I looked out of the store, and 1 saw a party 
of armed men driving towards tlie door, they came up the hill apparently frf«m the 
East side. 

Q. You say about six o'clock in the evening you saw an armed party driving to your 
door from the direction of the river ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Wliat did they do ; — A. They came to the store and entered it. A man came 
and spoke to me whom I did )iot know at the time. 

Q. A man whom you did not know spoke to you ? — A. Yes, he asked for the 
proprietor. I said 1 was the man. 

Q. Who was the man who spoke to you ? — A. The prisoner is the man. He said : 
"Well, Mr. Walters, it has commenced." 

Q. What did he say to you ? — A. I said to him : "I suppose you are 'Sir. Riel." He 
.said he was. 1 asked him what he wanted, and he said he wanted nrms and ammunition. 
I told him he could not have them. 

Q. Did the conversation continue ? — A. Yes he asked me to give them up ijuickly 
and jM-aceably, and he said that if they succeeded in the movement, they wouhl pay me,' 
and if they did not the Dominion Government would pay for them, it would be all fight 
either way. 

. Q. Did you ask him what had conunenced ' — A. Yes, he said it was a movement 
for the freedom of the people, or something to that eflect. 

Q. Did you ask what movement ? — A. Yes. . :. 

Q. He said a movement for the freedom of the people ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was that before or after he asked for the arms and ammunition ? — A. It was 
before. 

t^. Wheii you refused to give up the arms what was said ? — A. He argued with me 
and wanted me to give them up, and I told him that I could not do it. 

Q. Was anything done ? — A. Yes, they tinally took them. 

Q. Did you consent 1 — A. No, they went through some form and put their hands 
upon my shoulder. Riel ordered the men to do that. I was swanding behind the counter 
and they forced their way past. I did the best I could to stop them." 



70 



Q. They got past you 1 — A. Yes, there were 15 or 20 to one. 

Q. Were all the party armed ? — A. 5, C, 7, or 8 were armed. I did not count the 
number. 

Q. Was the prisoner armed ? — A. I did not see anything with him. 

Q. Had you any conversation witli him ? Did you say the intention was to arrest 
you when they l/iid their liands u|)on you ? — A. I did not tliink .so at the time I was 
arrested a few minutes at'tei-. 

:. Q. Had you any conversation with the prisoner about the movement, did. he say 

anything I)(?yond what you liave told us ? — A. Xo he did not at the time. We talked. 
I thought he would not succeed l)ut they thougiit he would. That was aliout all. 

Q. Had you any conversation witli him at any other time about the movement ? — 
A. No, not in reference to the movement. Hi- told me what they_ were going to do when 
they took the country. 

Q. What were they jfoing to do ? — A. If successful he told me they were going to 
divide the iaiul. \ / 

0- How was he going to (li\ide it ! — A. One 7th to the pioneer whites, one 7th to 
the In<Iian.s, one 7th to the. French Half-breeds, one 7th to the Churcli and sphools and 
the balance was Ciowii Lands, I suppose Uovernmeut Lands. 

Q. That is the way ? — A. Ye.s, tliat is the way I under.stood it. 



Q. Lands of whicli (Joverniiient ?— A. (Jovernnient Lands, lie did not fifty which 
Government. ''■ 

Q. Did he make any charges against you ? — A. The time I was arrested he said 
that something had transpired which led him to believe I was in deadly opposition to 
his course, and he would have to detain, me. 

Q. How long did he detain you ? — A. 1 was allowed to f;o on ilie third day. Tlie 
lirst night' I was kept over my own store. The ne-vt morning I was moved across to the 
chureli at Batoche. i. 

Q. Anil kept three days ? — A. Xot three whole day.s, oidy until the tliird day. 

IJ. Wen- you then ri'leased ?— A. -.Yes, the prisoner allowed me to go. 

Q. You had a conversation with him on the other side of the river ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did lie say anything about the movement there? — A. No, lie did not say anything 
very particular about it. He said they would liave no o]>position from Prince Albert. 
He saiti the |)eople were friendly, he .said if the whites struck a blow, a tluniderbolt from 
heaven would strike them, that (Jod was with their peo])lf. 

Q. Did you know of any meeting before the beginning of this movement? — A. 1 
only heard of meetings from time to time, I never was at any of the meetings. 

T^. Were there any other prisoners besides you detained at the same jilace ? — A. Yes, 

, one young fellow that wi^s with nie at tlie time, and during tjie evening Liish and his 

interpreter Tompkins, (jtorge Xe.ss, Tompkins and another man that was repairing the 

line. That i.s" all 1 saw 



t|)0 



Q. I suppose they tpok the guns and amunition fi-om your store, did they take any- 
thing el.se ?— Yes.' i 

Q. Wliat did tliey take 1 — A. I dont think tliey were taken at that time. They 
took it all out Ijefore the morning. 

Q. Everytliing out of the store ? — A. Pretty nearly everything, some unbroken 
packages they did not take. They were there when I left. 

Q. Do you know who was superintending the removal of the goods'! — A. Every one 



71 



) 



helped themselves to the clothing and mocassins and in the morning they were carrying • 
away the heavy goods, and Rial was superintending their removal. 

Q. Do you say that the prisoner superintended the removal of the goods in the 
luorning ? — A. He was giving directions, he was standing up on the seat of his cutter iu 
a prominent position and the Half-hreeds were loading up the goods. 

By !Mr. Greexsiiields.: 

Q. How long have you been living at Batoche ? — A. Nearly two years. 

y. Were you aware tiiat there was excitement and agitation going on among the 
Half-hreeds some time previous to this time ? — A. Yes. 

Q. It was rumoured ? — A. Y«s. 

Q. Had you «!Ver ^en Riel before the time he t-aiue to your store ?— -A. No, not to 

my knowleilge. - 

' /^ 

Q. Did you know that he canu^ to the country last year ? — A. 1 heard at tlu' time 
that he came in. 

Q. You heanl tliat he had been .sent for Ijy the Half breeds? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you know for w hat purjiose ? — A. No, I heard that the Halt\breeds had grie- 
vances. 

0- And t\icy wanted Kiel to assi.st tliem ? — A. Ye.s. 

Q. When this discussion between you and the prisoner took place regarding the 
division of the NorthAVest Territories was that in the store ? — A. No, in the church, 
next day. 

Q. Did you talk about anything else at that time with him 1 — A. No, what I was 
thinking about was to try and get away. _ , 

Q. Did he tell you that he exjiected assistiince from other powers in this rebellion ? 
—A. No, I cannot say he did. 

Q. Are you positive he did not? — A. I have no recollection of his .saying so. 

Q. Did he say anything about the Germans and Irish ? — A. No. 

Q. f)r the United States ?— A. No. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with him about his religion at that time ? — A. 
No. ■ ^ . . 



HiLLV.^iU) .Mitchki.l, sworn, examined by Mr. O.sler. 

I 
Q. What i.s your occupation '] — A. Indian trader. 

Q. Where were you carrying on business in !March last ? — A. Djick Lake. 

Q. I believe you are a Justice of the Peace there 1 — A. Ye.s. j 

Q. You had a store at Duck Lake ? — A. Yes. i 

Q. What was the first you knew of this trouble ? -A. The first I lieard of the 
actual rising was when I was coming from a place called Sandy Lake to Duck Lake. I 
was cro.ssing the Saskatchewan when I met one of the priests; and he told nie to get 
back to Duck Lake as the Half-breeds were in arms and intended to take my store. 

Q. You heard from him that this was their intention? — X. Yes. 

Q. What was the first you sow of the trouble ?— -V. I went to the Fort and saw 
Ma or Crozier, aiul he told me — " . 



72 



i/ 



Q. \He will speak for himself. What date was that ? — A. I don't rernenil)er the date, 
it was oil Thursday, I don't remember the date of the month, but I think it must have 
been the rSth.- 

Q..The Thursday preceding what? — A. Preceding- tlie day of the Duck Lake fight. 

Q. What was tlie lirst you saw of the prisoner? — -A. The first I saw of the prisoner 
was some time after Cliristmas. He came to my store then, and that w as the Hrst I saw 
of him. 

, Q. I speak more in refereiice to the first time you saw liim after the trouble com- 

menced ? — A. 1 saw him at Batoche, after coming from Carlton I went to Duck Lake 
and from there I went to Batoche. f ^ ' 

- Q. On a Thursday 2— A. Yes. ^ ■ 

i 
Q. At Batoche whom did you see ?- 

was the trouble. 



-A. I met Bernard Paul, and I asked him what 



ed?- 



You had a talk with him? — A. YeS.' 



J. We want to come down to the occuriences with which the prisoner was connect- 
A. I went to the river, where I met this man, two miles from tlie river. 



Q. What took place at the river ? — A. I saw a great many people around the river. 
It was then getting dark. I saw that two or three of ^yje peojile on this side of the 
river had guns in their hands, people whom I knew. I recognized some of them, and 
when they saw me they ap|ieared to be getting out of the way. f)n the other side of 
the river, I saw a man standing on the hill with a gun in his hand. I went on to the 
village of Batoche and .saw some English Half-lneeds waiting with loads of flour. They 
said tliey had been waiting all day to be unloaded, and that they had been taken prisoners 
by Riel. They were loaded with Hour, and I saw the loads and they were loaded with 
Hour. 

Q. What next ? — A. T ti-ied to get as much information as I could. I did not know 
whether it would be safe for m" to proceed, and I did not know how I might be received 
by these people. I saw Fisher and also Garnot, and their opinion was that I could go 
into the council room. I asked where the council room was, and Philip Garnot took 
me to the council room. I did not go into the council room, I went into the pi-iest's 
house. I saw some people standing outside, and I went upstairs in the house. 

Q. Whom did you see ? — A. Charles Nolin, Philippe (Jardupuy and a small man named 
Jackson who' was walking up and down. , 

Q. Did you see the prisoner ? — A. I Wiw- him after some time, I waited about an 
liour before I saw him. I said that I wanted to see him, and that was what I came for. 

Q. Can you place this date mor'e accurately, do you know the day Walter's store 
was raided ? — A. I am told it was on Wednesday, not on Tuesday. 

Q. Wfas 
Tuesday. 

Q. This would Ije Thursday , the 20th probably ?— A. I think it was the 1 9th. 

Q. Had you a conversation with the prisoner ? — A. I had a long conversation with 
hini, he did most of the talkifig. 

Q. Tell us what the conversation was ? — -A. Some one told me that he was pleased 
to see me. I went down l>elow, there was no light. He asked me to sit down and said he 
was pleased to see me, and that kind of thing. I told him I came to find out the cause of 
this trouble, what it meant. And I said that he need not look upon me as a spy, as I simply 
came as a friend of the Half-breeds, to give them some advice and try to get them to go 
home. He went on explaining the cause of the rising. He said that the Half-breeds had 
petitioned the Government several times to have their grievances redressed, but never got 



this after that .store had been raided? — A. Yes, I left Duck Lake on 



73 • i. 

a proper reply and tlie reply they were getting now was 500 policemen to shoot them. I 
told hiin tlie whole thing was a false rumour, that no police were coming. There always 
have been false reports, and I looked upon this one as not true. He said it did not matter 
whether it was true or not, that tlie Half-hreeds intended to show tlie (Sovernment that 
they were not afraid to tight J>00 men, either he or the others told me that that was said. 
He went on about the Half-breeds grievances, and he said he had sutfeied himself, that 
he had formerly been kicked out of the country tifteen years' ago and kicked out of the 
House. He said a great deal against Sir John and the otlier meiubers of the Government, 
particularly against Sir John. He said that he intended to bring Sir John to his feet 
and talked a great deal of bosh. This was all in the dark, others were in the room, several 
Half-breeds. 

Q. He talked as well of his own grievances ? — A. Yes, principallj-. All he said aV)Out 
the Half-breeds grievances was that they had jtetitioned the Govetnment, and then he 
went on with a long string of his own grievances, about his being turned out of the House 
and having to leave the country. 1 think he called himself an outlaw. He said he had 
been outlawed. 

Q. He was particularly hard on Sir John ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then was there anything el.se <.f importance that evening ? — A. Of course, I asked 
him to give some decided answer. I tried to persuatle him and the people to go home. I 
had to l>e careful as I did not know what ground 1 was treading on. I did not know 
what moment they would make me a prisoner, and I did not want to'be made a prisoner. 
He said he was very glad I had come, that my coming no doubt might stop the thing at 
once, but he said he could not give an answer to me, as it would take soiue time to 
consider it. He expres.sed a desire to communicate with the Goveinment and try and 
get the grievances redressed through the telegraph. I said for him to have the wire 
repaired as there would be a great many false reports in Canada. I told him he had 
done a foolish thing, and asked him to have the wire i)Ut up at once, get the grievances 
redressed if possible and get tlie thing stopped in that way. I did not look upon it as 
.serious, I thought the thing would simmer down. He said he would give no answer 
that day, tliat it would take some time to consider it. I _ , 

Q. WliJit did you do ? — A. I went home. 

Q. In going home did you see anything? — A. I .saw several men — 'of course, it was 
dark when I was going back — I saw several men around the village, loaling about with 
guns. After I crossed the ri\er, I was stopped by two men on the other side of the hill, 
one catching hold of my liiiise. They came alongside tlie sleigh and asketl me if I was 
free ? L said yes. And I was allowed to go on. I came batk to iSatoche the next day 
to get a decided answer from the jieople and to see what they would do, and see if I 
had made any impression upon them. 

(^. What j)assed that day? — A. 1 was taken to the council-room and I was told 
they wanted the unconditional surrender of Fort Carlton, and I was asked if I would 
niak<^ that pi'opo.sal to the police. I told them it was too absurd, but I said I w<nild be 
happy to arrange a meeting between Major Crozier and themselves, but 1 would not make, 
such a proposal myself. JSefore I came that morning I heard they had got some plan for 
.sending for me. I think I was to carry a white Hag ahead of those gentlemen to Cailion, 
and I was to make the proposal to the peoj>le in the Fort. They said if the |iolice did not 
surrender they would go for them. I think the police were to carry a cross. They told 
me they were 800 sti-ong. It was not Kiel that said that, it was at the Council that it 
was said. Noliii was the speaker. I asked him to put up the wire. He said he could not, 
that it was cut below Saskatoon. The two things I asked him about were tlve release of 
the prisoners and about the wire. 

Q. He refused both 1-*— A. He released Walters and his clerk. 

Q. Was this the occasion when Thomas McKay was with you ? - A. No, after that 



A- 



74 

I went to Carlton to try and arrange a meeting between them and the head of the 

GovernnKuit, ^lajor (Jvoiin: 

Q. The interview vou are now speaking of would lie on the 20tli ? — A. On Friday 
the 20th. 

Q. Then you went to Carlton 1 — A. Yes, and reported matters. 

Q. What next? — A. >[iijor Crozit-r said he wns willing to meet Rid man to man 
with or without an escort, and at any place' that suited. I named a jilace I asked the 
Major to send a wi-itteu note to Kiel, liut he said tliat it was not necessary, there was no 
' occasiou for it. McKay went back with me. 

. Q, Was it the next morning thitt you went f — A We siarted from Curllon about 
one ii'ciock in the morning. We w<''nt to Duck Lake. I liiid arrangi'd with the council to 
have two messeniicrs ready, so that I would not liive to ,i;o liack to Itatoclii- aj;ain, anil 
they Would carry the re])ly of the ^lajor, and I found the two Arcaiids wiiiting to get the 
reply from Carlton. 

Q. ,Did you send it on by them ? — A. No, I did not Siiy anything at all about it ... . 

(^. So the iuter%iew of the morning of the 2 1st was arranged, and you and Mr. 
McKay went forward ? — A. Yes, we went over to IJatoche. 

Q. Whom did you see there ? — A. A great many people. 

, • Q. Speaking of the actions of the prisoner, or the words of the jirisoner, tell ns what 
took place? — A. On this occasion he was very much excited and he did n»t like m}' 
brinying over Mr. .McKay. 

Q. Wiiat did he .sjiy .' — A. McKay had some conversation with these people iiere in 
my jiiiuse and these two jnen and .some other men were brought up us witnesses against 
McKay, that he was a traitor, and they talked pietty roughly to him. Mr. lliel talked 
very roughly to him and said that the government and the Ilud.son ]5ay Company werp 
the two curses of the i-ountry, and that lie, McKay, was hand and glove with tiie Hudson 
Hay Comjiany. 

Q. That was sjioken of McKay? — A. Yes, and he .siiid if he was not caiefyl his 
blood would be the tirst blood shed on this occasion. I told tliem 1 lind u.>ked .Ml'. McKay 
to come as njy frieuil. I told tiie people he was one of Jler Maji'sty s soldiers, and I told 
them it was rather rough for them to speak of Mr. McKay in that way. J{iel called down ^ 
. and said : If. Mr. McKay came as your friend, he is entitled to the Same (irotection that; 
you are, but tliat is tine only thing that .saves him. 

Q. Then, what else took Jilace ? — A. After thiit, I asked Kiel if he W(,uld come tp 
the council chamber up stairs, we went up there and I told him the nie.ssage 1 had from 
Major Crozier, that he would meet him man and man at a certain )ilace alone or with an 
escort, and he got \ery much e.xcited and said lie would not take Major Crozier's word of 
honor, that I ought to have brouglit tlie thing in writing anil be asked me tn jmt it 
in writing. I objected at tirst but finally I did put it in writing to tlie eti'ect that ^lajor 
Crozier would meet either Kiel or some one sent for Kiel's people if he gave him time. 

Q. You made a memorandum of it and signed it? — A. Yes, to his dictation. 

Q. Then, what else? — A. Ife seemed very much excited, and he said something 
about a war of extermination unless he cojuld come to terms with the govennnent, and he 
blackguarded the government a great deal, and he blackguarded the members of the 
government and he said their word was not worth that (indicating with his thumb), tiiat 
it was no good. I ottered to give myself as a hostage, that Major (Jrozier's word was per- 
■ fectly good. He said I had nothing to risk and he refused to take it. In fact he refused to 
meet Crozier, but he named people who would meet him. i 

Q. Two wiio would meet him ? — A. Yes, of course. I carried this message liack to| 
Carlton. i 




75 

Q. Is that alx)ut all that took place on that occasion'"! — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see many people around the council htRise i — A. I saw the whole of 
tlie population. I saw a great n.any people there. I coifwideied the whole settlement 
was there. \ - 

Q. L)id you see any body armed ? — A. Yes they were all riiore or less armed. 

Q. Any Indians ?^ A. No I diil not see many Indians ^here but I met Indians 
coniin;^ down. 

Q. Did you ao back to Fort Carlton ,' — A. I weiit back to Duck Lake and then to > 
Fort Carlton" with -Mr. McKay. 

Q. TlitMi did any further meeting take place? — A. I finished the thiiiu there. 1 
toUl Major Croia«'r what they lia<l deiided U]ion. 

t^. Whatjlid you ne.vt do ' — A. I came back to Duck Lake. 

Q. AVhp was the next you knew nt it ? — A. I met two jieople who had been named 
by the OouyTifil to iioM a iiieetini;. I did not go to the meeting. I only arranged for the 
meeting. If' was Ca])tain .Moore who went. I met these two peo})le coming and told 
them to,g|jW there as .soon as po.s.silile. tliat it was getting dark and that they should go as 
soon as»'l)<jssible and then they went on and had their meeting and came liack aliout 'J 
fi'clook, rfnd 1 had some conversation witli Mr. Nolin then. I advised him to escajie, he 
had l/ecn a prisoner before and he told uie he had been forced into the thing and that he 
liad been condennied to be shot. I told Nolin to tell Kiel and the people that I had 
iiiiished with tiieni and that tliey must now consider I would have nothing more to do 
with them, that I had done what 1 could to i|uiet them down. 

i^. Then was there any formal jiroieedingor any attempt at formality on the occa- 
sion of Mr. Mckay and yourself being at tiie Council house ? — A. I don t exactly under- 
stantl }'ou. 

Q. It is saidtiarnot was secretary and that the council was called together. AVhat do 
you know about that .' — A. There was a general hurrah given and people went up to the 
" Council table. There was a speaker and a secretary. 

(^>. Was any one called upon to act as secretary? — A. Garnot was secretary. 

i}. Philipjie (iai-not ; — A. Yes, at that time. 

(^' Wlu're were you on tlie occasion of the Duck Lake trouhie ? — A. I wa> with 
the troops. 

Q. On the occasion of that tight ? — .\. I was advancing on to Duck Lake with tlie 
police and volunteers. 

Q. And were you in the tight .' — A. Yes: I was in the tight, 

Q. And the lesult was that you did not get to Duck Lake ? — ^A. No, we had to 
retreat. 

Q. You were not able to take possession of your store '^A, We did not get to the 
store ; we were stopjied. 

Q. By reason of the armed fori-ed ? — A. Yes. 

C^. I believe your store was laideH afterwards ? — A. Every thing I had was t.iken 
away and the place was burnt down, they made that place their head<iuarters for two 
weeks, and they cleaned my stfire out entirely. 



r 



. . 76 

Thomas E. Jacksox sworn, exaiiiin^l liy Mr. Osier. 

, Q. Do you live iit Prince Albert, Mr. Jackson? — A. I do. 

Q. You area (lru;!;,i,'ist ? -A. I am. 

Q. You have beeiii there for some years '} — A. Some six years. 

Q. Your brother William Henry Jackson I believe was cue of the prisoners I — A. 
He wa.s. 

Q. And he had been in the company of Kiel immediately prior to the.se troubles 
and during the troubles .' — A. For .some time previous to them. 

Q. You had known of the movement and the agitation tliat was in the country ? — 

A. Oil ye.s, and I sympatliized with them. 

Q. Did you know of the piisoner being in the country ? A. Yes, I knew of his 
coming to the country.' I heard he was coming shortly before he came back. 

Q. You knew of li^m after he came to the country ? — A. Yes, 

Q. I believe you lilivewSeen him write ? — A. Yes. 

<^. Do you know Iijs handwriting ? — A. I know his liandwriting. 

Q. You went over, I believe, on an occasion shortly after the Duck Lake figlit for the 
bodies of those who were slained ? — A. I did, I was one of those wlio went. \ 

Q. How niiuiv days 'after? — \. Three days after It was the Sunday afteVl 
the tight. ' " ' " ^ • V 

Q. How did you com« to .go, under what circuilistances did you take that journey ? 

— A. Mr. Sanderson who liad been a prisoner of Biel was released by him to carry a 

- message to Major Cro/.ier to remove thti dead bodies, and Crozier had taken him ]iri.soner 

at Carlton and then took him to Prince Albert ; I interviewed S'ander.son and asked him. 

. about my brother and he told me he was insane, f 

^ Q. You were eiu|uiring about your brother fr^mf^anderBon? — A. Yes. 

Q. It was arranged Sanderson sliould go ? — A. Yes, Sanderson said lie was going 
and otfereil me to go with him. 

Q. And wlio else went with you ? — A. William Drain. 

Q. You .started I think on the 31st?— A. Sunday the 29th, the Sunday after 
tight. 

Q. You went to Duck Lake ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see the prisoner there ? — A. I did, / 

Q. What passed between you ? — A. General conversation, 

Q. Give us the material part of it ? — A. He spoke of having taken up arms, that 

he had done it in self defence and in talking about the Duk Lake fight, he said he had 
gone there in person, that after Major Crozier had tired the first volley he re])lied and he 
urged his men to fire, first in the name of (!od the Father, .secondly in the name of Ciod 
tlie Son and thirdly in the name God the Hojj' Ghost, and repeated his commands in that 
[manner thoughout the battle. ^^ 1 

- Q. That is what he told you about the engagement? — A. Yes. 

Q. What else did he say? — A. He spoke of the peofde in the town and the settlers 
generally. He said he had no desire to molest thein, that this (pnirrel was with the 
goveriMuent and the police and the Hudson Bay Co. He wished the settlers to hold 
aloof from taking up arms in opposition to liim, and he said if tliey held aloof he would 



{Tin 



77 



prevent the Intlians from joining them, 
himself. 



If tliey kept aloof he was to' oppo.se the police 



-A. He gave me a letter 



Q. Did he ask you to do anything in reference to that ? 
to the people generally stating so. 

Q. What have you done with that letter ?— A. I have destroyed it; 

Q. It i.s not now in existence? — A. No. \, 

Q. Did you read the letter ? — A. Ye.s. 

Q. What Xiis in it, what was the purport of it? — A. To the effect that if the 
people wouhl hold aloof and remain neutral, that he would not l)ring in the Indians, and 
also to the effect at the last part of it, that if they did hold aloof he believed tliev would 
celebrate the I'-lth May, but that if they did not, the Indians would come in and jiarties 
from across the boundary and the result would be they would celebrate the fourth of 
July, .some thing like that. 

Q. Wliat was lie going to do with Prince Albert? — A. He said he would give 
thein a week to decide whether they would accept his terms or not. 

Q. And in the event of their not accepting his terms ? A. Tlutt he would take the 
place. He .said Prince Albert was the key of the position and that he must attack it. 
He said that if the .settlers did not stay at home but kept in town with the police, he 
wpaiiTiittack them all. 

Q. Whom did you arrange witli to get the bodies of the slained ?-^A. We requested 
Hrst some assistance from him, tliat some of the Half breeds would go with us to remove' 
them, but there was some discussion about it, and when they learned that major Crozier 
was suspicious of them, he refused assistance, and the French Half-bieeds also he refused 
to let go ; in fact, 1 l)elieve the suggestion came through some of them in the first place, 
and in conse(|uence we had to go and remove them ourselves. 

il. Who was in charge there, who were you taking orders from at Duck Lake ? — A. 
Mr. Kiel. 

il. Who was gi\ing orders ? — A. Kiel. 

Q. Anybody else ? — A. Nobody else. ^ 

(i. Then you went to get the bodies ? — A. Yes. i ' 

(j. I believe he showed you the bodies that had been slain on their side ? — A. Yes 
he did, just as we were leaving. , « 

Q. Then you made another visit within the rebel lines ? — A. Yes, about a week 
later. 

Q. What was the occasion of that visit ? — A. 1 heari} from a Half-breed named 
Toussaint Bussieres that Albert Monkman and 1 5 men were in cliarge of the })risoners at 
Fort Uarlton, and that my brother was with theiu, and they left them across theisouth 
branch to attack general Middleton and I thought it would be a good opportunity to get 
my brother away. I knew Monkman, and I thought he would give him up. I obtained a 
pass from Irvine and went after my brother. 

Q. What did you tind when you got there ? — A. I went to Carlton first and then 
to Duck Lake. I found Carlton was luirned down and I found Duck Lake in ashes. I 
went to Batoche antl arrived there on the Tuesday after. 

Q. What is the date ? — A. About the tirst of April ; no, about the 4th of April 
probalily. 

Q. You reached Batoche when ? — A. That was some time on the Tuesday. 

Q. When had you left Prince Albert ? — A. On the Saturday, ' 



78 • 

Q. That was the fourth of April ? — A. I readied Batoche on the fourth of April, 
on the Tuesday following. r 

Q. That would he the seventli April ?— A. I suppose so. 

(J. Then did you see the prisoner after you got there ? — A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Had you any conversation with him ? — A. I had. 

Q. This was wliere ? — A. On the South side of the river. 

q. The day y..u got there "vvaa the day of the tight ?— A. The day I gotithere 1 

,Q. .You had a talk with him ahout your brother ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did he say wImI Wius the matter witii your brother ? — A. He said lie was siik, 
he ^aid his iniiid was attVoted, he said it was a judgment on him for opi)Osing him. 

Q. Vie seemed to know his mind was affected '.' — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you tiiid his mind was atlected ? — A. I did. 

Q. How were they considering liim, as a sane or insane man ? — A. Allowing him 
liis own way, but they had a guard over him. 

(^. Did Riel s]ieak as to what was best to do with him or what they were doing 
jwitli liini ? — A. Yes. he tliouglit he would improve there but 1 applied for perniission 
tofcet him away. Kiel said he was getting along xeiy jiicily there and that he would 
IHcHJer. 

Q. He did not let ymi take him away ? — A. No, he refused to do so. 

Q. Then did youiiiiike any formal application to get him away ? — A. I did to the 
--(Jouncil. 

t^. And it was .sefu.sed, I believe '! — A. Yes, it was refused. 

Q. What kept you in tlie camp ? — A. They refu.sed to let me go or my brother 
eitlier. 

Q. (iiV^ing any nason ? — A. Yes, I iieanl a discussion. I was upstairs in the 
council room, and 1 liaii .-spoken to Albert Monkman tfi speak in my favour and I heard 
tlieiii dis.ussing the- matter. Of cour.se they spoke in French and I did not understand, 
but Monkman was speaking in Ciee. Riel came down to the room and commenced to 
eat, and while lie was eatiiiLT Monkman kept on talking, and he rushed upstairs and 
attacked Monkman, ai.id in the course of his remarks he aciused him of not doing liis 
duty with the Knglish [lalf-breeds. that he had not brfmght them up with "JO men he 
had sent for them. Monkman defended himself and there was a discussion about it. 
^Monkman said tlie reason he did not bring tlii-in was beiau.se one man said he would if 
another would, and Riel told him he had gi\en him these 20 armed man to brinj; the 
leading men of the Eiijiish Half-liieeds by force. 

: Q. And what Riel was complaining about was that the orders had not been obeyed ? 
—A. Yes. ' . 

I Q. And Monkiiian was excu.sing liimself ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did yoU hear any di.^cussion after your arrival there as to what they_should do, 
as to any places that shoulil be attacked ? — A, They talked about attacking Prince 
Albert ; but 1 believe they were waiting for the Indians to join them in greater numbers. 

(^. .Had they Indians there ? — A. They had Indians there. 

Q. Ac this time ahiout the 8th of April, could you form any idea as to the number 
of men under arms ? — A. I could not say, I was told when I Hist arrived there they had 
ISOO, but I did not believe it. They said they were in liouses near by. Afterwards I 
was told by English HaJf-breeds that there was only about 700. 



79 

Q. TIhmi do you remember aii occasion of a false alarm, do you rememlier anvthiiiw 
lieing done by Kiel on that ucuiision '! — \. On one occasion I i'einenil»v;r he rushed to the 
church and lirought out the crucihx and ran around among the liouses calliu" out the 
men and insisting all should come, and I saw hiSg go out and choose the ground upon 
which to defend tiiemselves, expecting an attack from the Ilundioldt- trajl. 

(J. He went out and arrangeil the ground and warned the men ? — A. Yes he ur"ed 
them all to fight and made preparations for the defence. 

Q. Did he ask you to do anything for him ? — A. Yes, the first night I was there he 
intimated he would like me to write some letters to the papers and place a "(kkI cons- 
truction on liis acts. 

Q. Wanting you to write to the Eastern papers ? — \. Yes, to place a favourable 
construction on his action in taking up arms. \ ■ 

Q. Do you reniiMnber anything, any particular matter he wanted ? — A. I rcfu.sed to do 
so at first, because he had not allowed me my liberty and had taken away nfv brotl^er. In 
my a[)plication to the council, I said unless they showed me some consideration thev 
could not expect any consideration from mt^ in writing letters After the Fish Creek ti"Lt 
I though I he tiling was going to last all sunnner, and I commenced to write for him. 

Q. Then do you remend)er Kiel a.sking you to write any particular matter with 
reference to himself I — A. Yes, he claimed that he had applied to the Ciovernmeut for an 
indenniity tlirough D. H. Mucdonald, and in refily the (Jovernment had made use 
of some e.\]iressions. 

Q. What indemnity liad he applied for through .Macdonald .' A. For ;j.'),000 dollars 

Q. For what .- — A. For suppo.sed lo.sses through being outlawed and his property 
being conli-scated. 

Q. That was the money he wanted from the Dominion tlovernment ? — A. Yes. 

Q. He did not tell you how he made up the account ? — A. No. He claimed iu all, his 
claim against the Dominion tiovernment amounted to 100,000 dollars. 

Q. Did you know from him anything as to his personal motives in taking up arihs ? — 
A. Yes, lie disclosed his personal motives to me on this occasion He became very nuicli 
tjkcited anil angry, and attacked the English and the English constitution, and exhibited 
the greatest hatred for the English and he showed his motive was one of revenge more 
than anytliing else. \ 

Q. l!-evi'nge for what ? — A. For his supposed ill-treatment, his [iroperty being con- 
fiscated an<l he being outlawed. 

Q. Did you hear anything aliout the Half breed struggle? — A. Yes, he spoke of 
their grievances. \ . 

Q. In his communications with you whose grievances were the most prominent? — 
A. I think his own particular troubles were the most prominent, of course he spoke of 
the Half-br.eds trouble.;. 

Q. Were you put iu close confinement at any time? — A. Shortly after this 
outburst, he jilaced me in confinement with my brother. 

Q. Had you refused to write for him in this way ? V. Y( s. and it was in reference 
to discussing that that he became e.Kcited, and it was shortly after that lie placed ine in 
close contincinent. 

Q. You were kept with the other prisoners? — -V. Xo. I wa^ kejit by myself with 
niv brother. They would not allow me to communicate with the other prisoners. 

Q. When you were placed in close confinement had you any conversation with him ? 
A. He came in on one occasion and accused me of trying to incite an English Half- 



J 



, ■ I . ^ ■ «o 

• ~ . ! ■ ' ■ 

breed named Bruce to desert. He said I had Ijeeii speaking witli liim, and if lie could 

prove I had been inciting him, it would^'O hard with me. 

Q. Had you any other interview witli him while you were in dose confinement ?^ 
A. Not just then. Shortly after General Middleton ajiproaclied IJatoche, he placed us 
in the cellar o£ George Fisher's house. Tiie first day he took nu- u]* to attend to the 
wounded in case there should he any wounded, and he had some talk then in regard to the 
wounded, and he asked me if 1 would attend to them as well as if nothing had happened 
1 let ween us ? 

"Q. Did you attend to the wounded ? — A. No, they suspected I was going to desert, 
and they put me hack in the cellar that night. 

Q. Did anything material happen tiU the 1:2th May? — A. No. 

Q. What happened then 1-^A. On the 12th of May a Half-breed opened the cellar 
and called out and said Riel was wounded, I came up to the council room and jire.sently 
Kiel entered with Astley, and as soon as he came in he told meMiddleton was approaching 
and if he massacred the families, he would massacre my brother and the rest of the pri- 
oiiers and he wished to send lioth of us with messages to Middleton. 

Q. Were you to deliver the message ? — A. I was. 

Q. Did you see Riel write the message ? — A. Yes, I did. ^ 

Q. Is this the message (produced) ? — A. I believe that is the message. 

Q. By whom was is written '! — A. Writen by Kiel (The message alluded to is exhibit 2) 

Q. Do you remember what you did with this message ? — A. I believe I deli\ered it 
to General Middleton. 

Q. You don't know ? — A. I don't remember the fact, but I belie\e f did. 

Q. With that message you left the camp ?-^A. I did. 

Q. The rebel camp ?— A. Yes. 

Q. And I believe you di<l not go back ? — A. I did not go back. I did not go directly 
to Middleton because he changed his mind at the last. 

/Q. Who changed his mind ? — A. Riel. He took us down about a jnile and a hal 
and he ordered me to go to Lepine's house and wave a flag in front of it. ' 

Q. Just to go back for a moment, did you ever see the prisoner armed ? — A. I did 
on one occasion. 

Q. When was that occasion ? — A. It was some time after the Fish Creek fight. 

(^. Who was in charge at Batoche? —A. Riel. 

t^. Who instructed the movement of the armed men ? — A. Well Gabriel Dumont 
instructed them immediately, but Riel was over him. 

Q. Do you remember what he did on the occasion of the Fish Creek fight ? — A. He 
went out with IHOj men the night before and returned with 20, thinking there might be 
an atack on Batoohe from I 'rince- Albert or Humboldt or from the other side of the river, 
as he knew (Jeneral Middieton's forces were divided. 

(J. You saidyou kiiow the handwriting of the prisoner ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Look at' this document dated St. Antoine 21st Marcli 1885, in whose hand- 
writing is that Vr — A. Laxns Riel's (Document put in, exhibit 5) 

Q. Is all this writing on the third page his ? — A. Yes it is all his writing. 
Q. These signatures are in Garnot's writing ? — A. Yes, tliey seem to be ( Jarnot's. 
Q. In whose handwriting is this document ? — A. Louis Riels (I)ocunient put in 
exhibit 6). 



81 

Q. In tliis paper in the writing of Louis Riel? — A. Yes, tliat is his writing (Docu- 
ment put in, E\. 7). 

Q. Are the two papers attached here in Kiel's hand writing ?^ A. Yes. (Document . 
put in, Ex. S). 

Q. Is tills document in Uiol's liandwriting ? — A. It is. (Document put in, Kx. 9). 

Q. Perliaps you can tell me the meaning of the word ex ovile ? — A. It means one 
■of tlie Hock. 

Q. Is thi.s letter in the hand writing of Riel? — A. It' is, with the exception of a 
piece of back-hand, which appears to lie in Philip (Jarnot's writing. (Document put in, 
Ex. 10.) 

Q. In who.se writing is this ; — A. Kiel's. (Ex. II.) , 

y. Is Ex. 12 in Kiel's writing ,'— A. Ye.s. 

Q. Ex. 1:5 and ?2x. 14 are both in Kiel's handwriting! — A. Yes, it is all Kiel's. 

(j. Are these five sheets, coinpi'ising Ex. 15, in Kiel's writing ] — A. They are all ia 
the handwriting of the prisonei . > 

i-l- Ex. 10 is in the handwriting (if the prisoner ? — A. Yes. 

(l- And Ex. 17 is in his handwriting .' — A. Yes. 

Q. Ex. Ifi, is this document in his handwriting] — A. It is all but the last signature. 

Q. E\. I'J, is that in the han(lwriting\of Kiel! — A. Yes. 



<i. It is Kiel's siguature tliat is to tli^s document !— A. Yes. (Document put iu 
Ex. -M.) 

Q. The liody of the writing, is that Kiel's !— A. Xo. , 

(^. l>ut the signature is ! — A. Yes. 

Examined by .Mk. FiTzi'ATUirK. 

(^. Yiin kninv nothing mon- of the documents that have been shown you except that 
you know they aie in tile handwriting of Kiel ] — A. That is all I know. 

Q. You don't know if they ever left Kiel's possession or not ? — A. I don't. 

Q. You said, at the beginning of yofir deposition, that you were aware of a certain 
amount of aL'itatiou going on iu tlie Saskatchewan district (luring last autumn and fall? 
—A. I (lid. 

Q. Will you explain the nature of that agitation .' — A. That agitation was for pro- 
vincial rigiits piincipally, also for Half-breeds' claims, and also against duties and such 
tilings as tiiat. \^'e felt the duties onerous, 

Q. A purely political agitation ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You were in sympathy witli the agitation ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You were aware Riel was brought into the country for the purpose of taking 
part in the agitation? — A. He was lirought to this country on account of his supposed 
knowledge of tlie -Manitoba Treat}'. 

Q. Tlie people of the Saskatchewan district were of opinion that Kiel could be useful 
to tiieni in connection with the agitation ? — A. Well, he was brought in principally by 
the Half-breeds. The Canadians knew nothing about it till he was very nearly here. 

Q. Almost the whole of the people in that district had joined together for the pur-- 
pose of this agitation ? — A. They liad. 

6 



Q. Tluvt a;{itation had been going on for a conskliirahle length of time? — A. For 
some time. ^ , 

Q. Can you say for al)out how long? — A. Five or six years, or longer. 

Q. Did you attend any. meetings held )iy Kiel ? — A. I attended the meeting in 
Prince Albert. 

Q. You were i>ri"s<'iit during tiiat meeting? — .V. Duriiij;' ilie greater jiart of it. 

Q. You heard what Kiel said ?— A. I did. 

Q. What date was tliat meeting held ? — A. I could not say exactly, some time 
in June or J iiiv. 



Q. At his first arrival ? A. Yes. .. 



/ 



(^. He stated lie wished tlie movement to l>e entirely n constitutional movement ? — 
A. Purely a constitutional movement, he .said if they i-iiiild not ijet wiiat tlicy a<.'itated 
for in tivf years, to agitata for five yeai's-nnori', tliat cnnstitutional ai^itation would ^et 
what they wanted. 

• Q. You knew he continued assisting in the agitation up to the time of tlie ditiicuity 
in Miivh '—A. He was there as a sort of Halt'-liieed aiUiser priniiiially, he was not a 
nienibt.'r of tlie committee, liut lie was there in the inpacity of llalf-lireed adviser. 

{}. Dicfyiiu at any time hear he wished to resort to any means other than cf.nstitu- 
tional up to March ? —A. Notliiiig. , 

Q. You, beiiiu: an active participator, would naturally iiave heard of any such inten- 
tion if it had existed '. — A. Certainly. 

Q. There was no stich niii\ cnient up to tliat time ? — A. No. 

Q. After the 1st of March when did you tirst see Kiel ? — A. When I went to I)uck 
Lake. 

H. When had you seen him prc\ ious to tiiat time ? - A. Some, tinie_ in .laniiaiy, he 
'Mas in the town. 

Q. Had you conversation with him then ? — .\. I had. 

Q. Did you speak toiliim about the niovement ? — A. I dar-e say I didj, but I cannot 
j^ieniber. 

Q. Did he, at that time, say anything to you that would lead you to believe that he 
iptended to do anything that was not a constitutional agitation ? — A. Nothing of the 
kind. -He never referred to anything that was not constitutional agitation. 

Q. At tlie discussion you had with him previous to March last, it always appeared 
to you that the ordinary means adopted by the settlers were adopted by him ? — .\. Cer- 
tainly. 

i- Q. When you saw him at Duck Lake you spoke to liim alxiot your brother and he 
told you your brother had become insane ? — A. He did. 

Q. He tolil you he had become insane because he had opposed Riel, and that he was 
punished by (Jod for his opposition to Riel ? — A. That is what he said. 

Q. You never heard such a remark liy Riel previous to tliat time in any of your 
other conversations with him ? — A. No. 

Q. iHd it strike you as a peculiar remark ? — A. No, I don't think so. 

• -Q. You tliou.i,dit it was ()uite natural such a thing »>liould occur ? A. 1 did'nt 
agree with it, but I thouglit it was a very nice explanation on his part to make. 

Q. He told you at that time the jirie.sts were entirely opposed to him in the move- 



> 



83 

ment and were eiuirety opposed to the interests of the North-West settlement ? — A. No, 
liut }»• siiid they were opposed to liiiii. , 

■ Q. He f,'»ve you then to understand the priests were entirely wrong and he was 
entirely right ?- -A. .Certainly. 

Q. In fact they did not know anything they were talking about and he knew it all? 
— A. He said they werr working only for their own interest. 

i}. I>id he e\|ilain to you what his intentions were as to the division of the Terri- 
tories, what he intended doing wlien he succeeded in chasing the Canadians out of the 
eountiy ? -A. Some time, proliaKly when 1 was ]>risoner, I lieard him talk of di\ idiui.' the 
country in seven or gi\ iiig a seventh nf the proceeds to assist the Poles, a seventh to the 
Half-lireeds and a seventh t<i the Indians. 

0- Some more to tlu^ Hungarians ] — A. Yes, and soon. 

t,». Yiiu said when you were IJit'l's pri.soner, that it was after the 17th and l^th of 
March Vdu heard him discussing the future division which he intened making for the 
Territories if he got rill of the Canadians ^- A. Something to that ett'ect, hut I caiinot 
reiuendiei- e.vactly what it was. 

(}. You heard him talkimr of di\ iding the country intfi diti'erent parts .' — A. 1 un- 
derstood it was one-sex eul li of I iic proceeds of the sale of the land and ta.xes would l>e 
given to these diirerelil ]ieople, 

y. I till he then say that he expected any assistance from these people.' — A. No, 
it sefimed to lie a .scheme of emigration more than anything else. 

ij. His plan as he then unfolded it, did it appear to he in conformity with the plan 
you had heard him discussing at the imhlic meetings at which you assi-sted .'--A. Oh! 
no, a!t<igether ditlerent. 

Q. Will you look at this document called the foreiirn policy <locument. and say if 
you can see anything on it which would hear out that intention to divide up the country 
(witness looks at exliiliit l."i).' A. Yes. 

Q. I'oyou recoifnize the handwriting as that of Louis I{iel]--A. It is scrilihled 
so that it is dillicult to s.\v. 

if. What is on the otlier side of the sheet is certainly in his handwriting ! —A. Yes, 
it certainly is. 

. '' . 

(,>. And is the ink on the other side not the same as that .' — A. 1 think it is. 

Q. .\nd ilon't vou think the handwriting is also the same? — A. 1 eouhl iV«t say. 

(J. To the liest of your knowledge, does it not represent Kiel's handwriting.' — A. I 
think it is. 

Q. liiel ex|ilained to 30U what was meant hy the word exovede ? — A. He did. 

Q. That it was meant to convey that he was simply one of the flock ? — A. Yes. 

Q. That h(! had no independent authority, hut simply acted as one of the others ? — 
A. Yes, it was simjily an aflectation of humility. ; 

Q. You are aware that all the documents signed l>y him, as far as you know, liore 
the word exo\ede /A. The most of them. 

Q. You had several conversations with lliel after the conversation aliout your 
hrother, (ui religious matters? — A. After I Was taken prisoner, but nothing much on 
religious matters; he used to talk about his new religion, about leaving the errors of the 
Church of Rome out and adopting a more liberal plan. 

Q. He explained to you his new religion ? — A. He explained it as a new liberal 
religion, he claimed that the Pope had no right in this country. 



- ' • I S4 ■ ■ ~ 

Q. Did lie coudescplul to inform you as to tlie person in wlioin liis aiitliority should 
l»o invested ? — A. No. 

Q. You bejieved fmui him tliere was some pei-son in this country who would pro- 
baWy take the position of Pope in tliis country ? — A. I tliink very likely he intended 
himself to take tlie jmsition, that the Pope was in his way. 

. Q. This took pla,ce ^fter you were made a prisoner, this conversation about the new 
religion ? — A. I think so, and he also spoke about it at Duck Lake. 

Q. All the conversations you ever had with him in connection with this jioliticul 
movement never in any way refeired to tiiis new relij;ion ? — A. No, he spoke of religion 
but merely as ordinary men do. 

. Q. The tirst time you heard of this new religion and these new theories of I'eligious 
questions was after the rebellion had begun ? — A. Yes. 



-C■E^"KitAI. FifKOERicK "MiDOLKTiiN swoi^ii, exaiiiiiictl 1 ly !M i(, Robinson. 
O. You !tre u ^lajoy-Oeiit-ruI in lier -Aliijest v'm servic*^ ? --A. Yt-s, 



foivp. 



*^. AVhiit position tJo you Iiohl in CSiiiii;lii ? - A. 1 iiiii L-oniiii;iii(iiii\t; tlie Itoiiif niilitui 



1^. Wliere do ytiu i-esitU- ? A.' * Uiawa. 

Q. \V»»i'e yf>u t-allfd upon for sei*\ie*e in lliese Tei-ritories at any thin 



A. I 



0. Wlieu > -A. 1 think it was on the TM'A Maicli. I was SPiit for, the '2'Mx\ .Miucli, 
by Mr. Caron, and told I should have to lea^ e at once for tin- North-We.'^t. 

Q. Mr. Cai'on is minister ii( Militia ? — A. Yes. 

(^. Wbat reason wa.s i^ivt^n you ?--.\. Ife ti»ld iiie they bad new .s u hii-li Wiis of a 

veKy liad cliaracter, tliat a lising iniirht take place, and I was to jjo at once and he asked 
■when I could go. 

().■ When did you stiirt ? -.\. About two hours afterwards. 

Q. What did you do tirst ? — A. \l weTlj. straight to WinnijH^g. < tn the way to 
Winnipeg I think it was on the train I \eard of the Duck Ijjike battU-. When i got to 
Winnipeg, I found the KOtli was almost re&dy to march, that a small detachment had 
been sent to (^u'appelle and that the W^^JipPg I5attery was reatly, and then I heard 
more news abml Col. Irvine lieiuf; ii/ffaid to go to Batoilie as it was in the hands of the 
Half-breeds, and I heard a coiilirmatioki of the Duck Lake aflair. I went to the Town 
Hall and inspected the '.JOtli and that ek ening I went on the train with the 90th and went 
straight to Qu'AppcIle without stopping. 

<^. jlow long did you remain at tiu'Appelle ?^-A. I cannot exactly renuMuber. I 
was there waiting for the formation of the commissariat. 

Q. You left Qti'Apiielle and proceeded where ? — A. Fort Qu'Appelle. 

Q. And from tSiat you went to Fi.sh Creek ? — A. Yes. " 

Q. That was tile first occasion on which you met the opposing rebels'?- -A. Yes. 

Q. What force was under your command when you got to Fish Creek ? — A. When 
I got to F^sh Creek I had the 'JOth, I had previously divided my forces and |uit the half 
of them on the other side of the river, I had under my immediate command the itOth, 
the so called "A" Battery, with two guns, Boulton's scouts and I think that was all. 

Q. How many in all ?^.\. On paper there would be aboulj 420 or 450. 

I Q. That was your force at Fish Creek ?- — A. Yes, as far as I can remember. 



/ 



85 



/ 



Q. Ami how iiiaiiy men were lost there on your side ? — A. I think .we had, well I 
forget the exact numl»er. We lost nine or ten killed and forty wounded. 

Q. Tliat was on the ■24tli Ai-ril ?— A. The 24th April. 

Q. You remained there for some, short time? — A. Until I could f;et rid of the 
wounded. We had a larj^e number of wounded and I could not leave them there. I had 
not sutHcieiit forces to leave to protect them and 1 -was ol>lii;ed to wait, and I also 
wanted oats, but the {irincipal thinsj was to <,'et rid of the wounded. 

Q. Then you' proceeded to Batoche ? — A. Yes. , 

Q. Wlien did you arrive before Hatoche t — A. About 9 niilesf fronr l>atoche I 
struck thf trail for Hatoche on the 8tli and on the moininj; of the 9th, marched straight 
on to Hatoche leaviiij; m\- camp standiu;;. 

(^. And when did the iMiif.igemiMit bei,'iu ? .\. On the 9th, the instant we got 
there. , 

Q. |)i> yon iiieiui yi'U wii;- liicil i>ii :tliii<>st on your i^cttiui,' thf-ro ? .V. ( >n our 

arrival \\v caiiit^ on \\w top on llit; iiliitt^iiu iiiiil \vr .saw a Ihi^t ii.s>eiably oi i«kii, and we 

opeiK-cl Hi'c ? I 

Q. 'Pliiit Wiis tlik' Ix^i^iiiiiliiy; oi tlio €*iiix;»i;eiiieiit ? — A. Yes. 

U^ Th« finj,'ai,'pnient contiiitii'd till the iL'tli? -.\. WliPii liatoAe was takwi. 
/v. I lielei\e you had some iifi,'otiatiou.s on the l-'th '—A. Ye.s, on the 12th I had 

moved on tlie left of the enemy, f mo\-e<l to th*; riijht in order to cU•a^v' tTieir attention awjiv 

iiiwl I left (inlois with my sftfond in commaiul that while J was away, as soon as he heard 

liriiii^, tliiit lie Wiis ti» i-etukt* tins ol<l jwi.siti<^»ii \v'e luitl tlie j>ro\ ious chiv, iiiul a,-; I tlifw- 

the enemy ort'im the ri.;,'lif, he was to press on the left. 1 went otl' with the cavaliy and 

guns .so as to make as much show as possihle, and I kcpi tlie enemy engaged some little 
time. [n tlie nii<ldie of our engageineut there, which was (|;iite at l6ng bowls, I .'law a 
man galloping across the plains fiom tim direction of the enemy with a flag. He came 
ch).sei- and it turned (mt to t.e Mr. .\stley. He handed nn> a letter and he .said " 1 am one 

of the pris(;uer.s. I have been sent by Kii^l to coinimiiiicare with you, and 1 have brought 
you this letter." 

if. Is this the letter he Imuiglit you ? — .V. Vi;s, that is the same lettei- put in, 
E.\hibit I. This is my answer on the back of it. 

(,). The II what did you do with this letter? — A. I took it from yir. .\stley and 
wrote my answer and gave it to Mr. Astley who went away with it. 

l^. What took place next? — .\. The ne.vt thing was, a man on foot came up. 

(^. I)o you know who he was? — .\. Yes, he was Mr. Jackson, a brother of the matt 
who was a prisoner. lit; came uji with another document. He had exactly the same 
story to tell, that he had been sent by Kiel, only he \\as confused. He .said he had been , 
told to stand in front of a house with a white flag and eventually he .said be t'ouud that . 
was a stupid work, and he came on to me. 

Q. Is this the document he brought, (?jxhibit 2) ? — .\. Ye.s. to the best of my belief 
it is. It is an exact copy of it, because it was a little different from the wording of the 
other one. 

Q. Then what did you do in answer to that ? — A. I took no particular notice of it 
as I had already sent an answer back. I looked upon it simply as a copy and I told 
Jackson 1 had sent an answer back by Astley. 

Q. How long was it between the time you received the two communications ? — .V. I 
should say about a ([uarter of an hour. 

Q. .\nd what took place next? — A. As soon as that was over I did what 1 prin- 
cipally wanted, I had drawn the tire of the enemy. Mr. .\stley said '• I think 8ir, Mr. 



'"i- 



86 



Kiel is in a very great state of excitement and I sliould not wonder if lie would 
surrender." I gave orders and retired my wliole foice l)y degrees a,nd fell back upon 
my camp. 

Q. What took place iiext ? — A. VV^Iieu f arrived at the camp ] was x cry much put 
out and annoyed to rind my orders had heeu misunderstood, and that instead of their 
having taken advantage of my feint and having occupied the ritle pits, they were all 
quietely in camp. • ' 

Q. Did you receive any further communications? -A. As .soon as I found this, T 
am afraid I used .some pretty strong language ; the end of it was we attacked. The men 
were ordered down. I.went down myself to the front to see if there wiis any of tlie 
enemy in the intreiiiliment. 1 soon got tangible proof of it. The force that luiii their 
dinner were lyrought up aiid we began gradually to force our way on. In the niidille of 
that, when we got the artillery down, ^[i-. Astley came again gallo|)iiig, having run 
the gauntlet of both forces. lie ran lietvveen them and came with a Hag and produced 
anotlier letter from Kiel. 

Q. Is this the one lie brought you that time (producing it). — A. Y es, that is the 
SfLtne one. 

Q. Is this the. envelope it caine in ? -.\. Yes, (K\. ') and 4). I could not hear what , 
Astley was saying. I opened the envelo|K; urlid handed it to him. 1 could not Iiear what 
he said, 1 tried; to stop the guns tiring to hear it, but that was ho]ieless : at last he 
handed me tlie envelope i"ind pointed to it ami I read what was on the outside of the 
envelope and he saiil after Mr. Riel had closed the letter he got it back and wrote on it 
with an indelibly pencil and he said " you had better read what that was.' 

Q. Then what took place? — .A. .Astley .said he had better go back wiili an answer 
and I said no, there was no necessity. He said the j)ii.soners might be massacreil. I said 
there was no fear of tiiat, tliat we would be there in half a niiiiute. 1 went on and 
fprced my way, brouj^ht the DOtli, dismounted the troops and gradually puslied on. 

Q. And tlien the place was carried? A. Then the place was carried. I>y a series 
of rushes we forced 9ur way on and the enemy dispersed altogether but they still kcjit 
a tire in the distance, Inlt gradually all attemjit at defence had ceased with the excejition 
of a few stray shots now and then. 

Q. Astley did not return? — .\. No, he went down witli us to the jilateau. 

Q. How many of your force was killed on that occasion ? — A. On that occasion 
there were s\\ killed, I think, and twelve or thiiieen wounded. 

Q. That ])ratical!y was the end i)f the camjiaign so fai- as your cam])aign was con- 
vcerned ? — .\. I'ratically, it was. 

Q. How long after that was it befin-^ the ])risoner was brought to yim ? .\. Tiiat 
was tin tlie 12th. We halted the 1:3th and marched on the 14tii, and I think it was ou 
tlie loth. I had hearil he was on that side of the river and I marched as soon, as I could 
intending to go to Lepine's crossing. ( )u the way i heard of Kiel and Dumont ha\ ini; 
been seen and instead of going to Le])ine's 1 turned and halted at tiaidujiuys 
cro.ssing, ami .sent out all the scouts I could with directions to search the wood as far as 
Batoche. Oil the loth Riel was brought in by two scouts, Hoiirie and .\inistroiii.', and 
brought to my tent, and when he entered the tent he ]priiduced a paper wliiih I had .sent 
to him saying if he surrendered I would protect him till his case was decided by the 
Ciinadian (ioveriiment. . ' 

Q. What was done with him when he was first Jirought in? —A. He was bioiitdit 
into my own tent. Very feV knew he was there, I kept in my tent all day. I had 
anotlier tent pitclied alongside and he was put in that tent iindei' cliarge of cajit. Young, 
with two sentries with loaded arms, and during that night (.'aptaiii Young slept in the 
teut. ,' 







^ SV^^''* 



Q. Had you any conversation with the prisoner while he was there ? — A. Yes, 
■during the first day he was there I had a conversation with hiin. 

Q. I>id you invite any conversation from him ? — A. I dare say 1 asked him one or 
two questions. He talked very fS;ely to nie. 

Q. And did he make an\"- representation as to Ids share in the matter ?- A. No I 
can hardlv reniendier. I was writing at tlie time and then 1 stopped writing and 
talked to Mr. Kiel. Tlie only one thing I can reinend)er particularly as to liis .sjiare in the 
matter was as 1 was leaving the tent, he said : "(ieneral, I have heeii thinking whether if 
the Lord )iud granted uie as decided a victory as lie has you, whether I sliould have lieen 
able to put it to a good use." Tliat « is the only thing he said as J left thetei\t, 1 had 
talked a good deal with him on dirt'erent matters. (" ." 

(,). Tlien he was sent down with Captain Young ? — .\. Yes, 1 telegraphed down to the 
Oovernment to say Mr. Riel was a jirisoner and to know what was to he done with him, 
and eventually I was directed to send him to Rcgina which [ did, under the charge of 
Captain Ynuu'' with twelve men and a sergeant. 

Exandlied liy Mr. (!iii;i;Nsnii;i,ns. 

(J. You were in connu lud of til:' forces in tlie Xurth West Territorii-s ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In the course of that comuiauddid you issue any. general instructions or procla- 
mation to the iiilialiitants ? — .\. Well, once when I was at Fish Creek, I sent a commii- 
uication l>y an Indian to say tiiat the( iovernment had no war against the llalf-lueeds or 
Indians, tliat those who had hsen forced against tiieir will to join Riel would lie pardoned 
if they left and went to their homes and reserves, hut I said no pardon should lie given 
to Riel or his immediate aiders and ahcttors. It was something to that etl'ect. 

Q. Was tiiat prouTtnnition issued over your nanie?^-.\. Over my signature. 

Q. .Miout whit tinit! was that ? -V. Tliat must have lieeii between the 2 Ith of .\plil 
and the ."nli of .May, .vliiU- we were lying at Fish Creek with the wounded. 

(,). During tlie time i{iel was in your tent, did you have any conversation with him 
regarding his religious views ? '— .\. Well yes, he talked a good^leal about his religion. 

Q. Did .\stley make any remark to you at the time he brought these two messages that 
Riel wished as a condition of his surrender that he should be recognized as the head of 
the Church he had foinied at Hatoclie, or remarks to that etiect. — A. Xfi. I don'i think s^o. 
I remciibcr .Vstlcy . -raying " Cuifound liini ! lie is always bothering about his religion. 
He his anxious you should know about his icligioi.i," or some tliiiig like that. 

Q. This was befure you saw Riel ? — .\. Yes. 

Q. What did he say to you, that is Riel, when you had this conversation with him 
regariling religion i — A. I could hardly tell you. It was a disconnected thing, lie told me 
that Rome was all wrong and the jirie.sts were navrow minded. peoi>le ; tliere was iu:)thing 
particularly except the ideas of an enthusiast on some religious point. 

K,). Did he say to you he was a prophet ! — A. No. 

(,>. -Vnd endowed with the spirit of (lod ? — .\. No, nothing of that .sort. 

(^. Under what ciiciiintances was the jiajier which you sent to Riel otTering him pro- 
tection sent ? .\. 1 don't exactl^tknow what you mean'. That I think was sent when 
Astley told me lie was anxious to suVrender. " i 

Q. It was when .\stley told you he thought Riel was anxious to surrender that you 
sent hiiu that ?' -.\. [ think I sent it out by a scout, Hiave got a copy of it in my b'ook. 
I tliink I sent it by a scout. 

Q. Was there not a man came on behalf of Riel after the finiil charge and after Ba- 



^ 



toche had been carried, and stated to. you Riel would l)e willing to give hintself U]) on cer- 
■tain conditions .' — A. So, I have no recollection of that. 

Q. Do you recollecj; havinf{ seen a man named Moise Ouellette who was one of the 
councillors of tlie Coverinnent of the .Saskiitchewan .' — A. I don't rememlier particularly. 

Q. r3o you remeiiiber lie came to yOui- cam]) and stated he knew where Kiel was and 
that he would surrender ' 'Under certain conditions and' he di«l not wish to lie followed 
by any one '! — A. Xotliing of the sort. If any man had come and told me that, I would 
have seized liini injmediately. 

Q. That is pretty good evidence lie did not come I — .\. Certainly. 

Q. Your recollection is thabyou gave that little pieci' of paper to a scout !-:\. Ye.s, 
■with the liope it would i-each Riefin some way oi- other. 

Q. I)Vj you recollect the date you gave him this'']»a|ici- /- - A. No, I cannot exactly 



say 



r- but it must have been between the 1:2th and the Iftth. 



(iEOH<;K Hoi.MKs Yoi'Ni;, sworn, examined by Mi-, liurbidge. . 

,. 1 - ' .' 

Q. \ ou are an otlicer in the W innij)eg Field Utittei'y ' — -A. \es.' 

•; Q. Were you with General .MiilillHtons forces befoie Hatoche .' — .\. Yes. 

Q. In what position were you t — .\. I was brigade Major of the infantry brigade. 

Q. Were you with the forces on their arrival at JJatoche ? — A. I wa.s. 

I Q. Dill you hear any tiring about the time you arrived .' — A. As we sujiposed we were 
Hearing IJutoche we heard heavy tiring from the steamer. That was early on the morning 
of the Dtii .May. we heard the steamer liring aiid whist liiig for assistance. 

Q. You wcr^ i)rebentj^Iuring thefigliting on the Otli, lOtli, 1 llh and I'Jth .' - A. Yes. 

Q. Weve you '.vitii t:!ie .idcanct' that went o\cr tin- lilie pit.-, in tlir last charge ! - 
A. I was. 
I . Q. You were one of tlie first who went into a certain house I believe (-^A. YesiSir. 

Q. Can you describe what house J - \. The hou.se knoun as their council cliamber. 

Q. What did you liiid there .' -.\. In the upstafrs, I found a large number of pa]>ers 
and books. 

Q. .Where did you find them '. — .\. On the table where they had left them, fastened 
to the wall in pa|)er clip.'^and some in two boxes and some in a small leather reticule : they 
were generally through the room in places of safety, according to their importance. 

n. What did you do with them '! — A. J lashed the books and papeis together with 
a rope and gave them to an artillery Sergeant to take to Col Jarvis. Other papers were 
found besides those I found in the council chamber, and as they turned uj), 1 took pos- 
session of them. 

Q. Did you examine these papers ? — A. I did. 

Q. Do you i-ecogiiize that, (No. -t), as one of the i)apers ? — A. I do. 

Q, Do you recognize that as one of tiie papers ymi found, (6) ? — A. I do. 

Q. Do you recognize this as one of the papers you found (the 7th) ? — A. I do. 

Q. Do you recognize this as one of the. papers (1.3)? -A. I do. 

y. Do you recognize this as one of the ])apers you found there (16) ? — A. I do. 

Q. Were you pre.sent wlien the prisoner was brought into the camp? — A. I wa^ iu 
the camp and saw him brought in. 



89 

Q. You were through the fight at Batoehe ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You saw the rebels lighting against the troops, against General Middletou ? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. How were they armed? — A. With rifles and shot guns. 

Q. How many days after ISatoche was Kiel taken ? A. The last day of IJatot-he 
was Tuesday the l;?th, and the prisoner was brouglit into camp on the afternoon of FridJty 
the 1.5th. He was lirought by the .scouts to the tent of the General and was held there 
for ijuestioning. 

Q. AVas lie afterwaids put under your L-harge ? — .\. I was sent fur by the (ien<'ial 
as I liad known the [irisoner in the rebellion of 09-70, to see if I would recogr.ize him. 
I reported that there was no nlistake as to his identity: ab.ait half past nine word was 
sent tliat the General wanted me, and I went to the tent, and the (Jeneral told ny that 
h^ wanted nie to take charge of the prisoner and be answerable for his safe keeping. [ 
had charge of liim till I delivered him to Capt. Dean, on the :i:!r<l May. 

(,). Had you frefpient conversations with him during that time ? — A. Con.', ntly. 

(). Dill he speak freely and voluntarily wijji you ? — A. Yes, he talked all ;'. • time. 

(). You did not order him to make any .statements to you ? — A. None at all. 

K. Did he speak at all in regard to the Indians he expected to act with him, how 
many there were ? . 

'Sli: KiT7.i>ATl!lf;K. —I raisi? a formal objection to this part of the evidence. This 
was a stiteiiient made by this urin to this pers'>n who was in. charge of him. 

Ills UoNoH. -Wlijit is your objection ? - ■ ' 

.Mr. Fn'ZP.\THirK.- A statement by a prisoner when in custody to the per>oiuin 
charge of him is not admissible in e\idence. y 

Ml-. lirijHiDUK. — Did you hold out any induceiiient to j.\'nii to make a stateiiuut 
to you? A. No, ■'^'■ 

Q. His .statements were voluntary entirely? — A. Yes. 

<^. Did you otter any inducements or make i)roniises of any kind ? A. No. 

-Mr. FnzH.VTiMf K. -It is not admi-ssible in evidence niile.->s he made it voluutarilv. 

-Mr. HruiiliKiK.- .\. What did he say about the Indians ? A. ( »ii the Satuiday the 
(ieiieial v>islied to know as to the movements of sume bands wlii> iiityudeil to join the n'liel 
forces, and the prisoner spoke about a messenger, (.'liic-1-Gum, wlioni he had sent towmils 
Prince .\lbert and ISattleford to bring men with him to Batoehe. He gave this informa- 
tion to gi\e to the General as it might be possible to divcMt the Indians from their inten- 
tion. 

Q. Did he say anything about sending runners out to the bands.' -A. Ye>. in the 
Nortli-West and al.so towards Cypres Hills. 

Q. Did h(! s[)eak to you of anv'other aid he e.xpectjed to rei^eive'! -.\. I was instruct- 
ed to speak about possible aid from Irish sympathisers in the I'liited States. "" 

Mk. FlTZHATKlCK. • 

, Q. Were you instructed to speak to him about tliat ?-.\. Yes. 
Mr. FiTZFATKicK. Then I object. 

Mk. BuHBiuiiE. We will not say anything about that. ' 

Q. Did he speak about the battles ? — .\. About Duck Lake, y 
Q. What did he say about that I — A. We hatl a conversjition as to the way it 



( 



- 88 

toche had beeix carried, and stated to you Riel would l)e willing to give himself up on cer- 
tain conditions ? — A. No, I have no recollection of tliat. 

Q. Do you recollect having seen a man named Moise Ouellette who was one of the 
councillors of the Government of the .Saskatchewan ? — A. I don't rememher particularly. 

Q. Do you remeuiber he came to your camp and stated he knew where Riel was and 
that he would surrender under certain conditions and he did not wish to l)e followed 
by any one ! — A. Xothiin,' of tlie sort. If any man had crime and told me that, I would 
have seized him immediately. 

Q. That is pretty good evidence he did not come .' -\. Certainly. 

Q. Your recollection is that you gave that little piece of paper to a scout '. \. Yes, 
"with the hope it would reach Kiel in some way or otiiei'. 

Q. Do you recollect the date you gave him this'pajier .' — A. No, 1 cannot exactly 
say but it must liave been between the 12th and the loth. 



Georoe Holmks YouNiJ, sworn, examined by Mr. lUnbidge. 

Q. You are an othcer in the Winnipeg Field Battery ( — A. Yes. 

/ Q. Were you with (ieneral Middleton's forces before Hatoclie ? — \. Yes. 

Q. In wliiit position were you ? — .\. I was brigade .Major of the infantry briyafle. 

Q. Were you with the forces on their arrival at Batoche I — A. I was. 

Q. Did you hear any rtring al)out the time you arrived ? — A. As we supposed we were 
Hearing Batoche we heand heavy firing from the steamei-. That was early on the morning 
of the 9tii ilay, we heard the steamer tiring aiid wliistling for assistance. 

Q. You were present during the fighting on the 9th, 10th, llfh and ll'tli .' —A. Yes. 

Q. We!'e you with t'le advaiice that went o\er the rifle pits in the last charge ? - 
J^. I was. ■ ' ' 

Q. You were one of the Hr.st who went into a certain hftuse I believe ?-^A. Yes Sir. 
■Q. Can you describe what house .' — \. The house known as their council chamber. 

Q. Wiuit did you liiid there ?^A. In the upstairs, I found a large number of papers 
and books. • ' 

Q. Where did you find them ? — A. On the table where they had left them, fastened 
to tlie wall in paper clips and some in two boxes and some in a small leather reticule : they 
were generally throus;li the room in places of .safety, a<cording to their imjiortance. 

Q. What did you do with them ? — A. I lashed the books and papers together with 
a rope and gave tliem to an artillery .Sergeant to take to Col Jarvis. Other papers were 
found besides those I found in the council chamber, and as they turned uj), 1 took pos- 
session of them. . . 

■ Q. Did you exiimine these papers ? — A. I did. 

Q. Do you recognize that, (No. .t), as one of the papers ?— A. I do. 

Q, Do you recognize that as one of the papers you found, (6) ? — A. I do. 

C^. Do you recognize this as one of the jiapers you found (the 7th) ? ^A. I do. 

Q. Do you recognize this as one of the papers ( 1 3) ? — A. I do. 

Q. Do you recognize this as ojie of the papers you found there (16) ? — A. I do. 

Q. Were you present when the prisoner was brought into the camp ? — A. I wa-, iit- 
the camp and saw him brought in. 



<^ 



^ 



89 ■ . / ■ 

Q. Yoii were through the fight at Batoche ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You saw the rebels fighting against the troops, against Cleueral Middletoii ? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. IIow were they armed ? — A. With rifles and shot guns. 

Q. How many days after 15atoclie was Kiel taken ? A. The last day of Bataclie 
was Tuesday the 12th, and the prisoner was brought into camp on the afternoon of Friilay 
the ISth. He was brought by the scouts to the tent of the General and was hekl there 
for questioning. , , . 

Q. Was he afterwards put under your charge ? — A. I was sent for by the (ii-nt-ial 
as I had known the prisoner in the reliellion of fiil-TO, to .see if I would recognize him. 
I reported that there was no mistake as to his identity : about half past nine word was 
sent tliat the (Jeneral wanted me, and I went to tlie tent, and the (Jenenil told nie that 
he wanted mc? to take charge of tlie prisoner and be answerable for his safe keeping. I 
had charge of Jiini till I delivered him to ('apt. Dean, on the li'ii-d May. 

Q. PFad you freijuent conversations with him during that time? — A. Consv' 'itly. 

f,). Did he speak freely and voluntarily with you ? — A. Yes, he talked all '!, ■ time. 

(). You did not onler liim to nrake any statements to you ? — A. None at ali. 

K. Did he speak at all in regard to the Indians he exjiected to act with him, how 
many there were ? ^ <=^ 

i[r. FlTZPATItlCK. — F rai.se a formal objection to this-^art of the evidence. This 
was a statement made by this man to this person who was in charge of him. 

Ills iloNoit. — What is y<iur olijicti'in ? • . 

.Mr. FnzPATkif'K." A statement by a prisoner when in custody to the person in 
charge of him is not admissible in evidence. 

Mr. ISritmniiE. -Did you hold out any inducemt-nt to him to make a stateuunt 
to you? A. No, 

Q. His statements were \oluutary entirely ? — A. Yes. 

t^. Did you offer any inducements or make promises of any kind ?- A. Xo. 

-Mr. FrrzF.VTlilfK. -It is not admissible in t!\ idence unless he made it voluntarily. 

Mr. Hrniiiin;E.-'.\. What did he say about tlie Indians? — A. On the Saturday tlie 
(ieneral wished to know as to the movements of some bands who intended to join the ii'bel 
forces, and the prisoner s]joke about a nu^sscnger, C'hic-1-C'uni, whom he had sent towards 
Prince .Albert and iJattleford to bring men with him to Batoche. He gave this iufoniia- 
tion to give to the < ieneral as it might be possible to divert the Indians from their inten- 
tion. 

Q.. Did hi! say anything about sending runners out to the bands!- -.\. Ye.--, in the 
Nortli-West and ai.so towards Cypres Hills. 

Q. Did bespeak to you of any other aid he expected to receive !- .V. I was instruct- 
ed to speak about possible aid from Irish sympathisers in the United .States. 
• , -Mk. FlTZP.\TBlCK. . . 

; Q. Were you instructed to speak to him about that ? -.\. Ye.s. 
Mr. Fitzhatrick. Then I object. 

Mr. Burbidge. We will not say anything about that. - - ' 

Q. Did he speak about the Ijattles 1 — A. About Duck Lake. 
Q. What did he say alx)ut that 1 — A. We had a conversiition as to the way it 



> I 90 . ^' 

occurred. He insisted tliat Major Crozier fired first. After tlie first fire he said tliat lie 
liad instructed liis men to fire. He gave three coiuniands to fire as he explained it. The 
first as I remember it, " was in the name of God who made us, reply to that." They fired 
and Crozier's men replied, and he said, '• in the name of God the Son who saved us, reply to 
that.'' And the third was " in the name of God the Holy Ghost who sanctifies us, reply to 
that. " He spoke also of the circumstance.s that after (iahriel was wounded, a scalp wound 1 
tliink, he continued to load the guns of the iiieli till stopped hy the How of hlood and 
when he could not do that any longer, he .■said : "My poor children, what wilU you do, 
I can't help you any longer. '" We .sj)oke of Batoclie after his cai)ture in reference 
to the death of an old man I .saw lying dead on the face of the ravine, I)onald Koss I 
think was his name. He told me that as he was dying he called out for his relatives and 
chil<jlreu to come and see him l>efore he died. 

'). Did hf say anything about the disposal of his forctfs at the fight ] — .\. We were 
conversing about the difieient lines <if defence. Ke liad three, as I understood, a doulde 
line of ritle pits and a lower line aaain. He exjilained Imw tiie suuuts wi'ie to fall back 
wiien pressed, that were to be three in each pij<' ^ He said that he and (Jabriel Duniont 
dirt'ered. That (jalirici's opinion was tliat^The-tvbel right was the key to the ]iosition, and 
should be defended. The prisoner's opinion was that tiie whole line should be especially 
defended.. The matter was decided in council in favour of his vii'W. 

Q. Did he sjieak about the figliiing qualities of the Indians ,' -.\. He said in the 

early partthe movement was ail c irried ou 1)V tlje Half lireeds, bat wlien it came tofight- 

■ ing the Indians were the bravt-st of lii> soldiers. He was a« ,in- Itf the death of French 

and of many others instances of tlie liglit. I was jiositive from the instances he talked 

about that he nurst h ivc been opjjosite to me at ditt'erent times. 

Q. Tliis con\er.satiou took |>lacc whiii he was undei- your charge ? — A. Yes. 

By Mi(. Frrzp.\Tni(K. 

O. The information given to you liy the prisoner wa« intended to lie given to the 

General in reference to tli^Tlidian.>, Cliic-l-C'uiii .' — .\. Yes. 

Q. He gave the information for the pur| io.se of enabling the General to take such 
measures as were necessary to prexcnt any difiiculty with the Indians .' — \. He did. 

Q. He gave that freely and voluntarily, without ])ressure ? — A. Yes, entirely of hi 
own accord. 

(,). The fact that the |)risoner gave liiniself i\\< necessarily tended to shorten the con- 
ttict and avoid fm'tliei' spilling of blood? -A. I thought he was captured by the scouts, I 
cannot express any opinion as to that. If he gave himself up, it might ha\ e had that 
ett'ect. 

Q. You heard what the (ieneral .said this morning?— A. Yes. 

Q. Your general impression was that Riel in every waj- decidtal to close hostilities? 
— A. He gave us all the information that wc pre.ssed him for sometimes he would bring 
out other subjets to gain time to consider liis answers. 



M.\loft Edwakd W. .J.\iiVis, sworn, e.xamined by Mr. .Sf^OTT. 

Q. I understand you were in command of the Winnipeg Field I'attery? — .^. Yes. 

Q. On active service at the battle of Batoehe ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Were you there on the 12th of May? — A. Yes. 

Q. Throughout the whole four days ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Were any papers handed to you during that time ? — A. Yes, towards the end of 
the engagement on the l"Jtli, the last day of the engagement. . 



91 

Q. 1>3' whom were they liroujjht to you ? —A. By one of the staff sergeants of the 
Battery. 

Q. Would you recognize tlie papers? did you examine them? — A. I examined them 
but not particuhirly subsequently, about two days after, by order of the General. 

Q. You would recognize them I suppose. Is that one of them (6) ? — A. That is one 
of them. 

Q. Do you recognize that (-i) ? — .\. Yes, that is one of them. 

Q. Do you recognize that (7)? — .\. Yes, that is one of them. . 

Q. Do you recognize that (l;{) ? —A. Ye.s, that is one of them. 

Q. Do you recognize this (II and 12)? — A. That is also one of them. 

Q. Do you recognize that one (ItJ) ? — .\. Yes, that is one (^f them. ^ 

Q. Awd tlii> (1-1)? — A. Yes, that was also among the papers. 



M.\Jou (,'hiiZiki! swoni, examined by Mr. Oslki!. 

Q. I believe you are an oiticer in tlie mounted police? — A. Yes. 

Q. At the time of this trouble inmiiianding in the north district?— A. Yes. 

Q. With head-ijuarters at liattleford? — A. Yes. > 

Q. Carlton was the primipal outpost ? — A. Yes. 

Q.- In command of ? — A. Sujieriiitcndent ( iaunon. 

Q. I believe you arrived at Carlton on the 11th March ?^.\. Yes. 

Q. You remained there till aftf:r the Duck Lake tight ?i— A. Yes. 

Q. What force had -you innnediately before the Duck Lake tight at Carlton? — A. 
We had tifty men on my arrival on the 1 1th and I brought twenty ti\e men aftt-rwards 

Q. And then? — A. That was the full strength of the police. 

Q. You were joined by some Volunteers? — A. By the Prince Albert volunteers 
about the 'Jlst. 

Q. I believe you heard there was trouble and you issued a proclamation ? — A. I 
did, sir. 

Q. .Vnil then there was the engagement we have heard of? — A. There was. 

Q. Your terms as given to your agents were ? — A. Captain ]\Ioore and Thomas 
!^^^•Kay, of Prince All)ert, were the men that I scut out. 

Q. With instructions ? — A. T told Captain Moore to tell the men whom he would 
meet from Hid that as I believed manj' of the men had been led into this affair, that I 
hoped tliev woulil disperse and go to their homes, and 1 believed that the Ciovernment 
would consider their case and would deal leniently with them, with the exce}itioii of the 
ringleaders who would have to answer for their offence ; that I would do all in my 
power to set au amnesty for the rank and tile. 

Q. Do you know how those terms were received, of your own knowledge ? — A. I 
can tell what was told me. 

Q. The result was thatXhey still continued in arms ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You organized an advance from Fort Carlton on the morning of the 26th ? — -A. 
Yes, it was not au advance in the military sense of the word, I went out for the pur- 
pose of getting some provisions at a store at Duck L;ike. 



92 

Q. ! Having sent out a .siniiller party in the niorninf.', who returned unsuccessful? — 
A. Driven in. 

Q. Then you were proceeding to get provisions, and you were met l>y a ;. '! — 

A. By tt large party of rebels. 

Q. Did you identify any of the party leading ? — A. No. 

Q. The result was a contest ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Youi- force was fired upon ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And several killed and wounded ? — A. Yes. 

. Q. Did you get the provisions ? — A. We did not. 

Q. Why? — A. We could not proceed, we were prevented liy an armed forcf of 
rebels. ' ' i 

Q. Then did you rt:oeiv4 a letter or communication after the tight on the 27th of 
, March ? -A. 1 did. 

Q. Who gave that communication to you ? — A. Sanderson. - , 

Q. Asking you to come for your dead, had it this copy of the minute attached 
when you received it? — -A. Well, I ciumot swear to that, I don't recollect that minute, 
the other part I remember distinctly. I handed it to my commanding orticer after 
receiving it. 

Q. You do recollect getting fliis document purporting to be signed liy the prisoner ? 
— A. Yes. 

(2- That is, in effect, a letter asking you to send for your dead ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Whom you had Ijeen compelled to leave on the field ? — A. Yes. 

(2- They were sent for '/ — A. Not then, they were sent for afterwards. 

Q. Who composed the forces that opposed you, were they all llalf-lireeds ? - .A,. I 
don't think so. To the best of my knowledge, they were not. 

Q. Did you see any Indians ? — A. I saw men dres.sed as Indians, and who looked like 
Indians. j. 

By Mr. FiTZP.\TRicK. 

Q. When you reached the place where the tight took |)lace you advanced yourself, 
did you not ? — \. Yes I did. 

(J. .\ short distance in adxance of your troops? — \. Yes. 

(). You were m};t by one froui the opposite side? — A. Yes. 

- Q. Who was that ? — .\. I d^t kiiow, he aj)peared to be an Indian. 

Q. What became of tiiat man ? -A. That man I heard was killed. 

Q. Did you .see him drop? — A. I cannot say that I saw him drop. 

Q. Was he the tirst man killed to your knowledge? — .\. I do not know. 

Q. You did not see any of the men drop yourself? — A. I cannot .say that I did, my 
attention was engaged giving directions to my party. ^■ 

' Q. Your dead remained upon the field ? — A. Not the Whole of them, some of the 
dead did. 

Q. You knew that one of your men, Newitt, remained on the field wounded ? — 
Of course I knew it afterwards but I did not know it at the time. 



93 

.I' 
Q. To your knowledge was that man taken care of? — A. Xot to my personal know- 
ledge, tliough I believe he was from what I heard, 

Q. Did you see the dead after the battle ? — A. Xo I did not. 

Q. Before they were interred ? — A. No. 

Q. Did you see them on the field ? — A. I saw some, but the dead left ujHjn the tield 
I did not see. 



ClUBLES XoLlN, sworn, examined by Mr. CasGKAIN. 

Mr. Marceau was sworn as interpreter., 

Q. You live at St. Laurent? — .\. At the present time, Yes. 

Q. You livt^d bi'fore in Manitoba ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know when the prisoner came into the country? — \. Yes. 

Q. -Aliput what time was it? — A. 1 think it was about -the beginning of Julv 1884. 

Q. You met him several times between that time and the time of the insurrection? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Did the prisoner speak aliout his plaiisand if so, what did he say ? -A. About a 
month utter he ari'iveil, he showed me a book that he had written in the States. What 
lie .showed mr in that book was first to destroy Eiiijland and Canada. 

Q. .\nd ? — A. And also to destroy Rome and the Pope. 

Q. Anything else ? — .\. He said that h<' had a mission to fultil, a divine mission, 
and as a proof that he had a mission, he showed a letter from the bishop of Montreal 
eleven yesirs back. 

Q. Did he say how lie would carry out his plans? -.\. He did iiot^ay how he would 
carry out his plans then. 

Q. Did he tell you something after?— .\. He commeuced to talk about his plans 
about the first of December 1884. 

ii- Wli it did he tell you '! — A. In the beginning of December, 1^884 ; he began to 
.sho.v a desire to have m.)iiey, he spoke to me about it tfrst, I think. 

(). How much did he say he wanted? — A. The first time he spoke of money I tliink 
he said lie wanted 10,000 or"l"),000 dollars. 

Q. From whom would he get the money ? — .\. The first time he spoke about it he 
did not know of any particular plan to get it, at the same time he told me that lie wanted to 
claim an indemnity from the Canadian (iovernment. He said that the Canadian Govern- 
ment owed him about 100,000 dollars, and then the ipiestion arose whom the person were 
whom he would have to talk to the (iovernment about the indemnity. Some time after 
that the prisoner told me that he had an interview with Father Andre and that he liad 
made peace with the church, that since his arrival in the country he hadjtried to sa^iarate 
the people from tlie clergy, that until that time he was at open war almost with the 
clergy. He said that he went to the_ church with Father Andre and in the presence of 
another priest and the Blessed Sacrement he had made j)eace, and said that he would never 
again do anything against the clergy. Father Andre told him he would use his influence 
with the government to obtain for him ;i5,000 doUai's. He said that he would bi? content 
with §:ir),000 then and that he would settle with the government himself for the 
balance of 100,000 dollars. That agreement took place at Prince Albert. The agreement 
took place at Saint Laurent and then Father Andre went back to his mission at Prince 
Albert. 



I 94 • • 

I- Q. Before December, were there ineatings at which Riel spoke and at whicli you 
were present 1 — A. Yes. [ 

Q How many ? — A'. Till the 24th February I assiste<l at seven meetings, to tlw) 
best of my knowledge. 

Q. Did the prisoner tell you what he would do if they paid liiiii, if the government 
paid him tlit; indemnity in ijuestion ? A. Yes. 

Q. What did he tell you! — .\. He said if lie got the money he wanted from the 
government he would go wherever the (government wished to send him, he told Father 
Andre, if he was an embarrassment to the (ioverimient liy n-maining in the N \V. 
lie would even go to the )>rovince of Quebei-. He said also if In- f/ot the money he would 
go to the United States and stat a |iaper and laise the othei- nationah'ties in the States. 
lie said : "IJefoiv the grass is that liigh in this country, you will .sec foreign armies in this 
/country." Hesaid : •• I will connnence by dertroying .Manitoba, and then I will come and 
idestixjy the North- West and take possession of the North-West." 

Q. Did iuiyone make a flemand in thenanie of the prisoner for the indenniity ? — .N. 
In !tlie Iifuinninii of Jaiiuaiv the ( bivernnunt asked fur ten'lers tocimstruct the tiii^raph 
line bi-iwccn Kdnionton and Duck Lake, I tendered for it. 

(j. You withcliew your tender .' — A. Y'«'s. 

Q. Why? — A. On tiie 29th Januaiy, the tenders wer(? to be opend un the l'7tli. the 

prisoner came with Duinont and asked me to resign my rontraet in his faMnir beiaiisethe 

(tovernment had not given any answci' to his claim for .'*.'l.'i,()l)U, so as to frighten the 

(lOvernment. The prisoner asked to ha\e a jnivate inter\ iew to>i|Mak of that jni.ately 

with Dumont and .Maxime FiCpine. We went to Lepine'.s and it was then that Kiel 

told me of liis plains. 

, ■ •* " 

Q. What were his ])Ians .' — \. The pri.soner asked me to resign him my contract to 

show the (iovernnifiit that the Half breeds were not satislieil lii-caust- the (lovernmeiit hail 

not given Kiel what he^isked for. 

Q. Did he sjieak of hi>w h.' would realize his ]ilans .' -A. Not there, 1 spoke to him. 

■ Q. What did you say .' — .\. I told him 1 would not sacriHce anything for him, jiai- 
tiiularlv on aeci^unt of hi.^ plan of going to the United States, I woulil nut gi\e tive cents. 
, but that if he Would make a bargain with me( with Lepine and Dumont as witnesses, I 
proposed to him lertain conditions, I proposedSjiat he would abandon his jilan of goiny ti> 
the .Stal*--, ano rai.->ing the people, that he should abandon his idea of iroiiig to the St.ites 
and raising an army to come into Ca^iada. The second condition was that he would 
renoum-c hi-, title as ai'i ameriean citizen. The third condition was that he would aciept 
a seat in the House of Commons as soon as the North- West would be divided into counties. 

Q. Were those conditions accepted by the prisoner ?^A. Yes. The next day I recei- 
ved an answer to atelegrain from .^[acdonald ; the telegram said that the (Jovernment was 
going t> grant the rights of the Half-lireeds, Init there was nothing said about Itiel s claim. 

Q. Did you show the answer to Riel ? — A. I showed tlie reply I rtceived ne.xt Sun- 

Q. That was in the month of ?— lA. February. 

(^. In the beginning of the month ?V^A. Ye.s. 

Q. What <lid the prisoner .say .' — .\. He answered that it was -100 years that tin; 
English had been robbing and that it was time to jmt a stop to it, that it had been "oing 
on long enough. | 

Q, Was there a meeting about that time, about tlie Hth or 24th of February ? — A. 
A meeting 1 



day. 



95 - 

Q. At which the prisoner spoke ? — A. There was a meeting on the '_'4th February, 
■when the prisoner was present. 

Q. What took place at that meeting, did the prisoner say anything about his depart- 
ing for tlie United States ?— A. Yes. 

Q. What did tlie prisoner tell you about that '! — .\. He told nie that it would be 
well to try and make it appear as if they wantetl to stop him <{oing into the States. Five 
or six persons were appointeil to go among the people and wlien Kiel's going a«av was 
spoken about, the people were to say '"No, No." It was expected. that IJagnon would be 
there Init he was not there. Kiel never had any intention of leaving the country. 

(2- Who instructed the people to do that ? — .\. Itiel suggested that, himself. 

Q. Was that put ill pra.-t ice ? — A. Yes. , 

Q. Did tlie prisouc-r tell you ht^ was going to the United States ? —A. I was cliair- 
nian of the UKH^tiiig wlieu tlm (|uestiun of Kiel's going away was brought up. 

Q. In the beginning of ^I uvli was tlii^re a meeting at the Halcro .settlement '. — A 
Yes. 

Q. Were you presiMit wlicu that nifctiug was ortjiUiized by him '. — A. The meeting' 
was not exMclly organized by the piN.mer, it was orf^auized liy i\\e : liut the prisoner tonk 
advantage of the meeting to dci wli,it he did. Tlu- object of the meeting was to inform the ^ 
people of the answer the (ioveinnient had gi\eii to the petition tliey had sent in. 

Q. lietwtien rlie 1st Maivli and the meetin;^ at Halcro was there an interview liet- 
ween tlie |iiisoner aiul Father Andre .' — \. Yes, on the I'nil of March. 

1^. Those notes you have in your hand were made at the time .* — A. Yes, about the 
time. On the L'lid of .March, there was a meeting between Father Andre and the pri-oner 
at the Mission. 

Q. At llie interview b;'tween Ritlier Andre and the prisoner, did the prisoner ^peak 
about the foriuation of a provisional tinvernment ? — A. About seven or ei;;ht Half- 
breerls wei-e tliere, the prisoner came al)out lietween ten and eleven o'clock. 

(). What did he say to Father Andiv ?— .\. Tile prisoner was with Napoleon Xault 
and Daiiiase Carriere. The prisoner appeared to be very excited. He said to Father 
Andni : ■• \ ou must give me permission to proclaim a provisional (iovernii>ent iiefore 
twelve o'clock to-night." 

Q. What day was this ?— A. The I'nd of Alarch. ■ '- 

ii. What then ? A. The prisoner and Father Andre had adispute and Father Andre 
put the pri.sonerout of doors. 

Q. What took place at the meeting atHalcro, what did you see ? — .\. I saw about 
sixty men arrive there, all armed, with the prisoner. 

Q. What day was that ?— A. The fourth of March, 

Q. Were tlie.se men armed ? — A. Nearly all were armed. ~ 

Q. What did you do ? — A. That meeting was for the purpose of meeting the English 
Half-breeds and the Canadians. When I saw the men coming with arms, I asked them 
what tliey waiiteil, and I said the best thing they could do was to put their arms in a 
waggon and cover them up so they would not be seen. ] 

i). The prisoner spoke at the meeting ?— A. Yes. 

Q. What did he say ? — A. He said that the police wanted to arrest him, but he 
said these are tlie real police, pointing to the men that were with him. 

Q. Did you speak at that meeting ? — -.A. Yes, I spoke at that meeting and as I 
could not speak in English 1 asked the prisoner to interpret me. Before leaving in 



90 

the morning the prisoner and I had a conversation. He had slept at my place that 
night. JJi^fore leiiving I reproached him for wliat he had done the night before. 

Q. On the 5th of March ? — A. Tlie prisoner came with Gabriel Duniont to see nie. 
He proponed a plan to me that he had written upon a jtiece of paper. He said that he had 
decided to take up anus and to induce tlie people to take up arms, and tlie first thing was 
to.fight for the glory of tiod, for tlie honor of Religion and the salvation of our .souls. The 
prisoner .said that he had already nine names upon the paper, and he asked for my name. 
I told him that his plan was not perfect but since he wanted to tight for the love of (Jod, 
I would propose a more perfect plan. My plan was to liave public prayers in the Ca- 
tliolic chapel dui-ing nine days, and to go to confession and communion and then do as 
our consciences told us. 

Q. Did the prisoner adopt that j)lan ? — \. He said tliat nine days was too long. I 
told him that I did not care about the time and that I would not sign his paper. The 
prisoner asked me to come next <lay to his house, and 1 went and there we discussed 
his plans. There wjere six or seven persons there. 

Q. Rid you propose your plan ? — A. He j)roposed his plan and then lie proposed 
mine. 

Q. Did you decide to have the nine days ? — A. We decided upon the nine days 
prayer, that jilan was adopted almost unanimously, no ^•ote was taken upon it. 

Q. Was the nine days prayer commenced in the chureli ? — A. Yes, on the Sunday 
following. 

Q. . Wliat (lay was tliut ? — .\. The meieting at Riel's was.on the sixth, I think it 
^Was on the sixth March. 

Q. When did the nine d.iys prayer conniipnce ? — A. It was annouiK-eil in the 
church tf) eoniiiience an the Tuesday following and to close on the 19th ,Mt Joseph's day. 
Q. Did the prisoner assist at the prayer? — A. No, he prevented people going. 

Q. When clid you finally diHer fiom the prisoner in opinion? — A about I'O days 
"before they took up arms. I bioke with the prLsoner and made open war upon him. 

Q. What hapjieiied on the 10th? — .\. On the I'JtIi of March, I and the jirisoner 
were to meet to explain the situation, I was taken prisoner bj' four armed men. 

Q. Who were til" armed men? — .V. Philip (Jardiipuy, David Tourond, Francis Ver- 
niette. and .Josejdi Leiiioine. I was taken to the church of .St Antoiue. I saw some 
Indians and Half-breeds aimed in the ehurcli. 

Q. Did you have oecasion to go to the couia-il after that?— A. During the ni"ht I 
was brought before the council. 

Q. Was the prisoner there ? — .\. Yes. 

Q.' W'liat did he say ? — .\. I 'was brought before the council at ten o'clock at ni'dit 
the pri.sonej; made the accusation against me. 

Q. Vyhat did you do? — .\. I defended myself. 

Q. What did you say, in a few words? — A. I proved to the council that the prisoner 
had made use of the movement to claim thfe indemnity for his own pocket. 

-Q. You were acquitted ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You were in the cliurc:ii after that?— .\. The prisoner protested against the 
decision of the council. 

Q. Why did you join the movement? — A. To save my life. 

Q. You were condemned to death ? — A. Yes. 



97 ' 

Q. When were you condemned to death ? — A. When I was made prisoner I had 
been condemned to death, when I was brought to the church. 

Q. On the 21st of !March were you charged with a commission, do you recognize that 
(Ex 5) ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Who gave you that ?. — A. The prisoner himself. 

Q. For what purpose ? — A. To go and meet the delegates of major Crozier. I did 
not give them the document because I thought it was better not. 

Q. Do you remember the 2Gth of March, the day of the battle at Duck Lake? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Was the prisoner there ? — A. Yes. After the news came that the police were 
coming the prisoner started one of the tirst for Duck Lake on horseback. 

Q. What did he carry ? — \. He had a cross. 

Q. Some time after, you left ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You went to Prince All»ert ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In the l)egiuuiug of December 1884 the prisoner had begun speaking of his plan 
about taking up arms? — A. Yes. 



* By Mk. Lemikux. 

Q. You took a very active part in the the political movement in this country since 
69 ? — A. Yes, in 69 I was in Manitoba. The prisonner is my cousin. In 84 I knew 
the prisoner was living in Montana. I understood that he was teaching school there, he 
had his wife and children there. I was aware there was ajScheme to bring him into the 
country. 

Q. You thought the presence of the prisoner would be good for the Half-breeds, for 
the claims they were demanding from the Government. — A. Yes. 

Q. In tiiat movement the Catholic Clergy took part ? — A. The clei-gy did not take 
part in the political movement but they assisted otherwise. 

Q. The clergy of all denominations? — A. Yes, all the religions in the North- West. , 

Q. You were not satisfied with the way things were going, and you thought it 
necessary to have Riel as a rallying point? — A. Not directly, not quite. 

Q. You sent to bring him ? — A. A committee was nominated and it was decided to 
send the resolution to Ottawa. We did not know whether the petition was right or 
whether we had the right to present it. We were sending to Ottawa and they were to 
pass Kiel's residence. When the time came we saw that we could not realize enough 
money to send them there, and the committee changed its decision. Delegates were sent 
to Mr. Riel to speak about this petition and they were to invite him into the country if 
they thought proper. ... 

Q. Did the prisoner object to come ? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Who were the delegates sent by the committee? — .\. Gabriel Dumont, Michel 
Dumas and James Isbister. The prisoner came with his wife and children and lived with 
me about four months. 

Q. A constitutional movement took place in the Saskatchewan to redress the 
grievances ? — A. Yes. 

Q. The Half-breeds of all religions took"p^t ? — A. Yes. >■ ■ 

Q. The Whites? — A. Not directly, they syi^pathised very much with us. The Whites 
did not take direct action in the movement biit^ym))athised greatly with the H^lf-breeds. 
The witness is asked during what le'ii^t of tiitte tlie political movement lasted and he 



98 



said, it comiuenced ill March 1884 and continued until February or Marcli 1885. He 
said that the prisoner after Jlaviiig lived about three months at his phvce went into his 
, own liouse tliat lie thinks was f,'iven to him by Mr. Ouellette. The witness is asked if 
in September the prisoner wanted to j.^o, and the witness answers that he knows that 
the prisoner spoke of ;^oinj;, but he never believed he wanted to go. The witness 
is asked about what (late he ceased to have friendly relations with the prisoner, and 
he says about twenty days before he took up arms, which was aliout the iMtli 
March. The witness is asked if in the month of Feliruary, he thoui,'ht Mr. liiel 
could be useful to their cause, and he says that in that month he thougiit that if he 
acted constitutionally lie would be useful to their cause, but that as soon as he heard 
that the Ciovjjmnient had refused the prisoner the indemnity tliat hi- claimed, tliat lie 
said he haiTno mure conjdence in him as a leader in a constitutional way. The witness 
is asked aj^ain to say how it. is that having; lost contidence in the jirisoner he aitreed with 
him to deceive the peopli- and iiiaku them believe that he wanted to ;,'o wli'-n he knew he 
did nut want to leave the cunntry. He says that the prisoner came and askfd him to do 
that because Capt. tJagnon was there and so as to impress the (iovernmcnt. and be says 
that he tliouulit, that at tliat time they expected that Mr. (iatrnon would be at tlie 
meetinjr, ami it would lirinj; a satisfactory result for ^Ir. Kiel. 

The witness is asked, •■ In other words you wanted to juit a false imjiression on Mr. 
Cii^uon 1,11 as to obtain a ;;pod result for .Mr. Riel." And the witness answers : " No, 
not ijit all. The witness is asked if he knew the prisoner well, and lie .says yes. 

The witness is asked after that whether didn't they startja political iiKu emeiit with him 
ill' Manitoba, and he .says that in ^lanitoba in li^tiO and 1K70 he did iifit diii'ctly start 
any movement with the prisoner. And then he is asked if he did not act like ]w did in 
this ca.se, if he did not .start wiih them and abamlon them and he says yes. He says that he 
parti.ii)atecl in that muveinent as long as he thouj.dit it was constitutional, but as soon its 
he saw it was not, he withdrew, j 

The witness is asked if subseipiently to the rebellion and the abandonment that he 
made in 11^70, if he was not appointed Mini.ster of Agriculture, and he .says in 1M75 he 
was appointed .Minister of Agriculture. He is asked if he was not locjked u|>on as one, 
of till' leaders of tlie Half-breeds of the Haskatchi'waii, and he .says he was looked upon 
as one of the leaders. 

The witness is asked if Father Fourmoijd did not wiuit to stop Mr. Riel from acting, 
and he says it may be so, but it is not to his knowledge. 

The wit iie.ss says there was a meeting on the 24tli* february. He knows Father 
Andre spoke thei-e, but he could not say if lie asked the prisoner to remain, and lie says 
he niay have said so. 

The witness is asked if about that time, in fehruary, there had not been a dinner 
at which the political situation of the Saskatchewan was discu.ssed ? And he says he 
knows of one on the 6th January. The witness says that at that time he s|)oke, but he 
did not speak much.. He said something at that dinner, but he did not speak much. 

The witness is asked if he can swear that at that dinner it was not sjioken of the 
grievances of tlie Half-breeds and the refusal of the (iovernment to redress them 1 .\nd 
the witnejis says that he Wiis |>resent at that dinner, and that to his knowledge he does 
not remember that there was any political speech at that. The witness says that he had 
very frequent occasions to meet Riel, conversing with him since march 18.'^-1 till the 
moment they disagreed. 

The witness is asked if the prisoner ever told him that he considered himself a pro- 
phet, and lie says yes'. 

The witness is asked if after the meal something strange did not happen, if there 
was not a ((uestion of the spirit of (iod between the witness and the prisoner? The witness 
says it was not after a dinner, but it was one evening they were spending the night to- 
gether at his house, and there was a noise in his bowels and the prisoner asked liim if he 
heard that, and the witness says yes, and then the pri.soner told him that was his liver, 
and that he had inspirations which worked through every part of his body. 

'i'lie witness is asked if at that moment the prisoner did not write in a book what 



' 99 

1 

he was inspired of, and the witness answers that lie did not write in ii book, ))Ut on a 
slifft of paper, lie said he was inspired. 

The witness is askfd whether he ever heard the prisoner speak of liis internal policy 
ill the tlivision ol the eountrv, if lie sliouUI sueeeetl in liis enterprise, and he says yes. He 
says that ar'ter his arrival the prisoner showed liiin a hoiik written with butialo lilood and 
the witness said that the prisoner in that plan said that after taking Kniiland and Canada, 
he would divide Canada and give the jirovince of l^i^'hee to the Prussians, ( hitaiio to 
the Irish, and the North- West Territories he di\ iiled into ilill'eienl parts heiween the 
European nations, lie says he does not renieinher them all, Init the Jews were to have 
apart. The witness says tliai he thinks he also spoke of the Hungarians and Uavarians. 
He savs that lie thought the whole world should have a piece of the cake, that,,J*russia 
was to hive (Quebec. The witness says that since ls>s4 there was a couiniittee which vas 
called a council. The witness .says he was one of the nieUihern ot that committee or council. 
He was oiilv one ordinary iiieniber, not president. Mr. Andrew Spence was President. 
He was un Ir^uillsh Half-breed ; he said the council coudeiiiued him Co death and lilerated 
him after and oll'eied him a place in the council. ^ 

The witness is aski-d if he refused that position, and he says he did not refuse it and 
that he accepted it, but it was only to sa\ e his life because he had been condemned to 
death. i'lie witness is asked if he was present at the meeting at I'riiiLC .\lhirt, ami he 
savs hf was not there, he was outside, he did not speak there. The. witness says that hefore 
the bittle of l)uck Like lie saw Kiel going about with a Criicitix about a foot and half 
long, that the Crucili.v had been taken out of the next church, near by. The witness is 
asked if it is not true chat when theie was a iiuestion in the Saskatchewan of. the police, 
the character of the prisoner changed completely, and that he hecame very excitable and 
even uncontrollable, and the witness says that whenever the word police was pronounced 
he got very e.>Lcite I. The witness is asked if at the time it was said in the district that 
500 police would be sent to answer the petitiini of the Half breeds, his cliaracter did not 
become very excitable, and he says that after that he did not see the [uisoner, but before 
that, whenever the word police was pronounced he got very e.xcited. He says that what 
he .said here was about the month of January or even February, and about that time 
Captain t;ai.'non passed in the country and stoppeil in the prisoner's house to impiire what 
was the niatl ot St. Laurent, auil there wa.s only the ])risonei's wife and ^Ir. Duniont in 
the house, and when the prisoner came back and was informed that Mr. (iagnon liad been 
there, he got verv much excited, and the woman could not exjdain it, what Ca>.'non had 
stopped therefor, and he got very e.xcited, and the population generally .i,'ot excited too. He 
does not know whether those policemen had their unif'ornis on or not. He says he ci^nnot 
say at wiiat dati^ that was that Lianiion passed there, but he says he heard of theoUO 
police coining to the country only after arms wer<' taken uji. The witness tiays that one 
of his sons was arrested after the tight of Batoche and that he was brought here to the 
Barracks and was relea.sed within the last few davs. The witness is asked if he Jiad any 
intlueiice, and he says he does not know what intiuence he could exercise, he says tlial at 
any rate he has been put at liberty since. The witness came to Regina to give his evi- 
dence in this case. 

r 

,i, . 

'£.vainiiiatioa of Mr. Ciiahles Nolin' continued through the interpreter. 

The witness is asked if the council which he spoke of a while ago and which was" 
jn-esided over liy Mr. Andrew Spence, was the same as that which condemned him to 
death, and he says no. 

Mr. JustlcE RicHARDSO.v, That is, the, old council was not the council that 
condemned him to death. 

Witness says that the Council that condemned him toaleath was not that which 
was called ex ovid. 

Witness is asked if prisoner had separated from the clergy, and he .says completely. 
He sivs the Half-breeds are a jieople who need religion. Religion has a great intiuence on 
their mind. The witness is asked if without religion the prisoner could have succeeded in 



• 100 

briii.;iii;^ t!ie tlalf-ljreeds with him, and the witness answers no. It would never have 
succeeded. If tlie pri.soiier had not made liiuiscU' appear as a prophet, he would never 
have succeeded in liriujjiujj the Half-breeds with hiui. 

By Mr. Leuiieux, recross-exaniination. 

The witness is asked if the prisoner did not lose a <:;reat deal of his influence in 
tliat wiy by the fact tliat lie lost tlie inHuence of the Clergy, and he says that at the 
time he gained iutiuence by woricing against the Clergy and by malting himself out as a 
prophet. The witness is asked if he means that the people did not have confidence in 
tlu^ Cler^'y, and ln' says no, but he says they were ignorant and he was taking advan- 
tage of their ignorance and their simplicity. ^i 



Thomas Saxderson sworn, examined by Mr. Robinson. 

^ ' Tiiere is a paper which has not been read yet and which was proved by the witness 
Japksni. It is dated l-'ith May, 188-5. It ^s addressed to General Middleton. 

Major-Oener.il Frederick Middleton : 

General — I have received only to-day yours of the 13th, but our Council have 
dispersed. I wish you would let them quiet and free. I hear that presently you are 
absent. Would I go to Batoohe, who is going to receive me J I will go to fulfil God's 
will. - ■ 

(Signed), . ' 

LOUIS " DAVID" RIEL, e.,- ovid. 
1.5th May, 1885. 

Mr. Justice Richardsos. — Was that document proved ? 

> Mr. OsLEB. — It was proved by Jackson, no 19. • 

Mr. Robissos. — Q. I believe you are a farmer living at Garrot River settlement ? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Do you remember the'"20tsh of March last, do you remember that day ? — A. I do 
not exactly remember that date. 

Q. Well, do you remember Gordon coming to you ? — A. Yes. 

Q. .\ bout w^heu was that ? — A. I think it was about the 20th. I don't exactly 
recollect the date. 

Q. Was it at your house ? — A. At my father's house. 

Q. What did he desire you to do ? — A. To go with him, to conduct him to meet 
Colonel Irvine. 

Q. He >vished you to go with him, to conduct him to meet colonel Irvine ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Where was colonel Irvine represented to be coming from 1 — \. Coming from 
Qu'Appelle. 

Q. And what were you to do, to show Mr. Gordon the way ?^.\. He did not know 
the way and requested me to take him through the woods to avoid the rebels. 

Q. How far were you taken 1 — A. To Hoodoo, away as far as I possibly could to 
secure his safety and the safety of the despatches he carried. 

Q. .He was carrying despatches, and he wished you to take him through the woods 
to avoid tlie rebels ? —A. Yes. 

Q. How far did you go with him 1 — A. To Hoodoo. 



101 » 

Q. How far is Hoodoo? — A. About fifty miles, it i^ between Batoche and Humlwldt. 

Q. When did you got there ? — \. About nooii of thf following day. 

Q. Wliat did you find when you got there ?— A. I found Mr. Woodcock who was 
then in charge of Hoodoo station, and another man whose name I don't knriw who liad just 
come there with a load of oats. 

Q. Wluit do you mean by a stsuion, is it a mail Mation ? — A. A, mail stoj.ping place- 
Tliere were also two other men with sleighs loaded with Hour and goods, for Carlton, I 
think tliey told me. . > 

Q. For whom ? — A. I think for the HuJlson Bay Co but I anx not positive. 

Q. Wlio were the men? — A. Mr. IsbisteiAand another I think who was called Camp- 
bell, I have seen the man often before, and Ilthink that is his name. 

Q. What happened while you were there ? — A. On towards tlie evening while I was 
out washing about the store, I saw two Half-breeds as I suppose, coming along in jumpers 
and I .stepped inside and told Woodcock the rel>els were coming for us, and v.ent out 
again and tinislied my washing and then they drove up to the door, drf>Ve up along the 
road, got out of their jumpeis and walked into the house and 1 asked them what was 
going on at Batouhe, and they said nothing mticli, and I asked if Mr. Kiel wa.^ taking 
prisoners and they said tiiat they had got some, and [ asked if they were getting a gocxl 
deal of tlour and he said the)' were getting a goo<l deal, and I sat down to sujiper and 
they went on conversing among themselves. 

Q. What else took place that you remember ? — A. At supper a few more came in. I 
said '"getting pretty thick, I guess I will go outside and see if there are any more out- 
side," I went outside and found about twenty ortwenty-tive armed men, and returned 
and finished my supper. ~ ^ 

Q. What did you do ne.xt ? — A. There was one stepped up and said he had a letter 
for Woodcock. I handed him the letter, on a small slip of paper, and he read it, he handed 
it to me to read and I think it stated that : We have been told that you are going to fur- 
nish the police now coming up with hay and oats, if you do we will consider you a rebt-l. 
Signed (Jarnot. 

Q. Well what else was said or done ? — A. I said they hadn't oilght to consider him a 
rebel at all, that he was simply performing his duty and if Mr. Irvine had ordersto get 
hay and oats there, he would certainly have to give them to him and that I did not think 
they should consider him a rebel on such grounds or an enemy to them, with the idea 
probably of them getting or leaving them there. They said anyway they had to take him 
prisoner and take him to Batoche, and 1 spoke up in his defence and they said they 
were going to take me also. 

Q. Did they take you too ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Now was there a Mr. Isbister there ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And they took you both to Batoche ? — A. Yes. 

Q. When did you get there ? — A. I should say about 11 or 12 o'clock, I am not 
positive. 

Q. How many went with you ? — A. I think there were either seven or feiglit in my 
sleigh and about the same in Woodcock's. > , 

Q. Armed ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What did they do to Mr. Isbister ? — A. I don't know, he was left there when I 
■ came away. 

Q. You don't know whether they took his freight or not ? — .\. I saw him ne.vt day 
in Batoche, and I think they did not, but I am not positive. 



102 

Q. You got to. Batoche about twelve I think ? — A. I did, about twelve. 

Q. And what happeiierl thera? — A. I was taken out of the sleigh and taken into the 
church. 

Q. Whom did you se6 there l^\. Well I was not acquainted with any of them. 1 
knew one was GaltricI Duniont, I had seen him before and knew him by sight. 

Q. How many did you see ? — A. I sliould say about 300 around tlie church and 
in the church that night. 

Q. "Hiat was the 21st ?— A. I think it was the 21st. 

Q. Were they armed ? — A. Nearly all that 1 saw were armed. 

Q. Were they all Half-breeds or any of them Indians ? — A. Some Indians and .some 
Half-breeds. It was after night and I could not distinguish them. 

Q. How long did they keep you ? — A. Dumont got up and made a speech of some 
length. I should say it took iiim about an hour, and afterwards an Indian got uj) and 
made a spe.'ch that lasted about half an hour, and then there were a good deal of talking, 
and they took us away ta the council house. 

Q. Near tlic church ? — A. A little u|) the I'oad from the church 

Q. What happened when you got there ? —A. Tlu'n^ were several men around tlie 
lower story, some eating and some talking and so on, and tliey kept me there till Mr. 
r Riel came. i . .1 

Q. And what did he say or do ? — .\. I wa3 then conducted upstiiirs as I suppose 
into the council room. Mr. Riel asked me what I ■ 

Q. Were they sitting as a Council around a table?^~A. ;I don't know, they were 
^sitting around the taltle and around the house in all shapes possible. 

Q. Was any body acting as Secretary ?— .\. Yes, f)ne wliom I afterwards knew as 
Garnot was acting as Secretary. Mr. Riel asked me wiiat I was al)Out, and I told him I 
(lid not knojv what he meant. He says "what are you about" and 1 says ''I don't know 
what you brought me here for.'' Says he, "where do J'ou come from" t said I come from 
(iarrot riveft He says "I consider you mj- ejieuiy," and I says "all-right." 

Q. Well, what more? — A. He asked Mr. Woodcock some ijuestions, I am not 
positive what the ijuestions were, that is all .tliat was said to him till morning. 

Q. Wliiit took place' in the morning ? -.\. In the morning I re(|uestod an interview 
with Mr. Rifl and he gave nu- one. I asked him wliat 1 was brought there for, what he 
hatl against^iiie, and he said he considered me an enemy, and I asked him why. And he 
said he considered all the people at (Jarrot ri\er as his enemies, and 1 told him I did not 
know any ner\son there who. wei- • against him in tlie movement before he took u[) arms, 
and when/1 left there they did not know he had taken up arms aiifl 1 said as far as I 
was concerned, I was not his enemy altlmugli I would not take u)i arms to defend him, 
and I thcught my l)est idan was to make some way to get out of there if I possibly 
• could, for I Was in a bad bo.x. 1 was then taken to a house that I was told afterwards 
was Gai-not's, where I found other prisoners. 

Q. .\nd what took place then ? — A. I don't just recollect everything that took 
place there was so much. 

Q. Well, what conversation had you with the jirisoner ? — A. AVitli Riel ? 

Q. Yes. — A. He came and asked me down that forenoon, I think it was in the forenoon, 

and he wanted me to speak to him. He asked if I knew there was any jiolice coming 

and I told him I thought there was, but I was not sure, and he said he had been told there 

were oOO coming, and he asked me if I thought it was true, and I told liim I guesse<l it 

. was, that I thought there was 500 coming* he asked if I thought there was. I forget 



103 ^ , . 

now liow he mentioned it, any way a deputation to settle his grievances was coming with 
them and I told hira I thought they were coming, something to that eflect, that they 
were coming to try to settle this reliellion. 

(^. A deputation was coming to try and settle this rebellion ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You mean the 500 policemen were the deputation ? — A. Xo, I meant that there 
were other jiarties with the 500 policemen. _ ' i 

Q. Now, did he talk to you about his grievances and what they were, or anything^ 
else ? — A. Not at the time. 

Q. Well when did he, if at any time? — A. He did after the Duck Lake battle, and I ■ 
think the day before, I had several conversations with Mr. Kiel. I could not just lecollect %_ 
what he .said. He did talk to me about them after the Duck Lake battle, and I think 
the day before. 

Q. Did he speak about his grievances or what were the grievances ? - A. I could not 
state positi\i'ly what he did chvim as grievances, there were three grievances and other 
things, I don't exactly recollect wlint the conversation was. 

Q. Were they general grievances or personal grievances ?— A. General grievances Be 
spoke to me of. 

Q. Well, what took place next, how long were you kept there ' — A. 1 think I was 
kept there till Wednesday in Batocheyl am not positive. I 

Q. .\nd what happened there? — .\. Till the thiy before the Duck Lake fight, and I s 
was then taken tn Duck Lake. ■ 

Q. With an armed guard % — K. With an armed guard. • . [ 

Q. .\nd where were you put there ? — .\. In the upstairs of Mr. Mitchell's house, at 
least I was informed it was Mitchells. 

(\. With other prisoners ? — .\. Yes, Mr. Peter Tompkins, Mr. Lash, William Tomp- 
kins and Mr. Woodcock. 

(j. Did you see the people coming over, the body of the Half-breeds and so on coming 
to Duck Lake ? — .\. I Siiwthem leaving Batoche and going to Duck Lake the night pre- ' 
vious. * 1 ^ 

(^. About liow many / — .\. 1 should sa^fcetween 400 and 500. • 

(^. Was lliel with them < — .\. I did not see him. 

Q. Did you see Kiel at Duck Lake ?— A. Yes. 

Q. When .' — .\. Before going out to the battle, and coming back from it. 

Q. Did you see , him actually going out to the battle ? — .\. Y'es, I saw him going 
out of the yard towards where the police were coming. . . 

Q. With others?— .\. With aljout between twenty and thirty men. 

(,). .\nd you saw him coming back from it ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Wfll, when he came back did you hear hiui .say anything ! — A. I heard him 
speaking but 1 could not understand him for he spoke in either French or Cree, I coidd 
not say which. 

Q. Did he come and .speak to you at all? — .\. He did, after speaking to them he 
came upstairs and brought up Charles Newitt, the wounded man. 

Q. What did he say about him ? — ^A. He told us it was about the best thing he could 
do with a wounded man, that he thought we would take bett«r care of him than his own 
men would, and I thanked him for bringing him up to us, and he then went down stairs. 

Q. Did he tell you anything about the battle? — \. Yes, he did. After he came back 



104 

I asked him how many were killed, and he said nine and he thought there were more, biit 

nine were left on the tield, he thought a good many Ment away on the sleigh. 

^ ■ * 

Q. Did he tell you anything else, about the battle ? — A. I asked him who tired tirst 
and he said the poliee, and he said afterwards he then gave orders to his men to tire, three 
distinct orders. 

Q. Did he .say how he giivethe orders? — A. " In the name of the Father Almighty I 
■command you to tire," was the tirst time. I think those are as near the words as I can 
rejieat them. I think he said the second time, " in the name of Our Saviour who 
redeemed us I command you to fire," and the third tinre " in the name of the Father, 
Son and Hbly Ghost I command you to fire." 

r 

Q. Then liow long did you remain at Duck Lake ? — A. Till next day. 

Q. And where were you taken then? — A. I asked Mr. Kiel what he was going to 
do with the dejid bodies the day of the battle, and he told me that he did not know, that 
they would consi<ler. I said he ought to send some word to major Crozier, and let him 
know and allow him to come and take away the bodies, and he said that he would consider 
tliH matter and see his council. Afterwards he came back up there and 1 asked him what he 
was going to do and he said they wert^ afraid to .send one of the men for fear Major 
Crozier would keep hrm prisoner. I told him if he would send me I would come back 
and give mysi'lf up again as a prisoner, and he .said he would consider it and he after- 
wards concluded to send one of tlie men and then finally he came himself and told me he 
would send me. 

Q. Did he give you any letter to take ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is that the letter he gave you (showing witness a paper) ?— A. Well, I could not 
say for I never saw the letter only while he was writing it, .so that I could not actually 
give any evidence on the letter, I could not swear to it. 

Q. You could not identify the letter or swear to the letter ? - No, I did not see 
it Afterwards. 

Q. Did you give the letter ?— A. I did. 

Q. To whom ? — A. To Major Croziei'. 

Q. And what happened then ? — .\. The next that happened I wasdetained by the police 
then and was not allowed to go back as I had promised to do to Mr. Riel. 

Q. Did you assist in bringing the dead from the field t — A. Yes. 

Q. Well, did Riel ask you any ([uestion afti-r coming back from Duck Lake at all ? — 
A. Yes, he asked me about the police. He had reijuAted while going witli his message 

to tell tlie ]>e<i|)le, tlie volunteers, that lie (lid uotwlsli^ to fight them, that he wished 

tiiem to remain neutral and afterwards help him to establish a government, and wlien I 
went back to i*uck Lake I told him I had told the pfi>j)le this, which was a lie. I told 
him also that I was taken prisoner by Major Crozier, 'and put into the cells, which was 
true, and that I was afterwards taken to Prince .Vlbert liy Major Crozier, that the 
volunteers there kiokecL because I was taken prisoiter,! that Majoi' Crozier was afraid to 

stay and left Carlton and went to Prince Albert. That was lies also. 

Q. That is the information you gave Mr. Riel ? — A. That Igave Mr Riel. 

Q. .\nd then what happened to you ? — A. Before giving him this information, he 
asked me aboutUhem and I told him that I had refused to tell anything about them 
without he told me whether I was to go back to the prisoners, and whether I would be 
allowerl to go at large, go free, and he said I would be allowed to go free, so then 1 spun 
him a little yarn. 

Q. Who wrote this letter you took to Major Crozier ? — A. I could not say jiositively, 



105 



Mr. Riel was writing so was Mr. Garnot and they had a great time getting up the letter, 
so I don't know which 1 could say. 

Q. What do you mean by a great time ? — A. Tliey wrote so many of them and 
destroyed them. 

Q. They wrote more than one before they got one to suit them ? — -A. Yes. 

Q. And finally they finished one and gave it to you? — A. Yes. ^ 

By Mr. Greenshields. 

Q. At the time you were taken prisoner did Riel take any part in it ? — A. No, 
I did not see him. 

Q. It was only after you been had taken prisoner that you saw him ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Now, at the time you sjioke to him regarding the formation of a governriient, did 
he give you any idea of wiuit kind of a government he proposed forming ? — A. Yes, he 
was going to divide the country into seven parts, one part was to be for the Canadians, 
or white settlers, one seventh, another seventh for the Indians, another seventh for the 
Half-breeds, and he named over what he was going to do with the rest, I don't recol- 
lect the names of the people. 

Q. Did he tell you he was going to give over other sevenths to otlier nationalities, 
the Poles, Hungarians and Bavarians and Jews ? — A. He did not. 

Q. Did you hear him say anything about giving a portion of it to the Germans ? — A- 
No, not to my knowledge. He named over, I think it was three-sevenths of it was to 
remain to support the Government. 

Q. That was for himself, I suppose ? — A. Yes, 'l suppose, for*^he Go\ernment he 
was aliout to establish. 

Q. Now, that was about the extent of the conversation with him regarding this 
Government ? — A. Yes, that was about the extent of it. 

Q. He did not say anything about expecting assistance from foreign powers in his 
undertaking ? — A. No, he did not. 

Q. Did he talk to you anything about religion ?^A. Yes. 

Q: What did he tell you about that ? — A. He told me he had cut himself loose 
from Rome altogether, and would have nothing more to do with the Pope, that they were 
not going to pay taxes to Rome. He said if they still kept on with Rome they eouid not 
agree with the Canadian and white people who came there to live, becau.se their Govern- 
ment would have to keep allljrotestants out of the country, if thay kept on with Rome. 

Q. That is, if the Rit^l Government kept on witli Rome they would have to keep all 
Protestants out of the country ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And abandoning Rome they would be able to allow Protestants to come into the 
country ? — A. Yes, that is what I understood from him. 

Q. Well, did he mention anything to you of who was to succeed the Pope .?-~tA. He 
did not. 

Q. Did he tell you he was going to play Pope for the North- West Territories ? — 
A. He did not. 

Q. Well, did he explain to you any of the principles of the religion that he was 
founding? — A. No, by th(! way he spoke to me, the religion was Just the same, any 
more than he had cut himself from the Pope. 



106 



Robert Jefferson sworn, examined by Mr. Casgrain. 

Q. In the course of this last Spring, I believe you were in Poundniaker's reserve, 
■were you not ? — A. I was. 

Q. In his eaiup/— A. In his camp. 

Q. About what month ? — A. The end of March and April and May, I don't believe 
it was the whole of May though. 

Q. La.st ?— A. Yes. . . 

Q. Who is Pounduuiker ? — A. He is one of the chiefs of the Cree tribe. 

Q. Had he a baud of Indians with him? — A. He had a Itand of Indians. ' , 

Q, A large baud ?— A. Yes, he had a large l)and. 

Q. Do you rei-ognize this letter (No. 18), and if so, where did you see it ? — A. Well, 
I have seen it twice. 

Q. Where did you see it the first time ? — -A. I saw it the first time in the camp, and 
the second time it was iu the camp too. 

Q. You saw it twice in the camp? — A. Twice in the camp, yes, once after the 
capitulation aifd the other before. 

Q. Whose hands was it in the first time you saw it ? — A. It was in the hands of 
Poundmaker. 1 

Q. And the second time ? — A. The second time it was in the hands of Pound- 
maker's wife. 

Q. How did it get tHfere, into the camp, in Poundniaker's hands ? — A. It was brought 
in by Delonue and Chic-i-cura. 

Q. What Was his Christian name, do you rememljer ? — A. I could not say. 

Q. He was a Half-breed ? — A. He was a Half-breed, yes. 

Q. From where ? — A. From Duck Lake. 

Q. Chic-i-cum is an Indian, is he not ? — A. Yes. 

I Q. Do you remember the battle of Cut Knife ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was this before or after the battle of Cut Knife ? — A, It was before considerably. 

Q. Was it after the battle of Duck Lake ? — A. Yes, it was after the battle of 
Duck Luke. 

Q. When was the battle of/Out Knife fought? — A. I could not say the date. 

Q. About what time ? — Ai About the beginning of May. , 



[I 



Examined by Mr. GREBNsiiiEL'ljaw^ 
A 



Q. Was Poundmaker reading this letter at the time that you saw it in his hands ?- 
No, he wa.s not. 



Q. Do you know whether he can read or not ? — A. I do. 

Q. Does he read English ? — A. No. 

Q. Does he read Fi-ench ? — A. No, nor French, he does not read at all. 

Q. What was he doing with the letter when you saw it in his hands ? — A. The 
letter was brought to him. 



Q. Handed to him 1—^. Yes. 
Q. In your presence ? — A. No. 



107 

Q. Did you see it brought to him 1 — A. No, I could not say that I saw it brought 
to him. 

Q. Well, how do you know that the letter was brought to him ? — ^A. Well, every 
one said it was brought to him. ■ 

Q. But you don't know anything about it yourself ? — A. I beg your pardon, I know 
it was brought to hini, he said it was brought to him. / 

Q. Who said so ? — A. Poundmaker. 

Q. But you don't know of your personal knowledge it was brought to him ?— A. Xo, 
I did not see it brought to him. 

Q. What was he doing with it when, you saw it in his hands, was he looking at it 
as a matter of curiosity, or what ? — A. No, I believe he was going to put it awav. 

Q. Did he know what it was 1 — A. Yes, he knew what it was. 

Q. He knew it was a letter, eh ? — A. He knew it was a letter. 

Q. Did he ask you to read it for him ? — A. Xo, he did not. 

Q. Do you know yourself, now, where he got that letter, how he got it, of your own 
personal knowledge, not what he told you or anybody alse told you, but of j'our own 
personal knowledge? — A. Xo, I don't. 

Q. Youw)n't know anything about it, do you ? — A. Xo. i 

Q. You don't e\-en know whether it was intended for Poundmakei' or not, do you ? 
—A. Not of my own jiersonal knowledge. 

> Re-examined by Mr. Casgraix. 

Q. Was this letter read to Poundmaker ? — A. It was. 

Q. By whom ? — A. By the man that brought it. 

Q. Was it interpreted to him ? — A. It was interpreted to him. 

By Mr. Greensiiields. 

Q? How do you know it was read to him ? — A. I heard them read it. . ■'■ 

Q. Where were you when it was read ? — A. I was there when he 

Q. Do you understand Frencii ? — A. I don't understand very much of it. 

Q. Did you have the letter in your hands ? — A. I did, yes. 

Q. Was it read in English to Poundmaker or in French, or how, or Cierman,-or what ? 
— A. It was translated for him I believe, itAvas read in French first, I am not certain about 
it though. 

Q. How do you know it was translated to him ? — A. Well, I heard what was called 
a translatioii of it. 

Q. What were you doing about that time ? — A. I was listening. 

Q. Now, how do you know it was translated if you never read the letter ? — A. I 
never said I never read the letter. 

Q. Well, did you read it ? — A. I did read it. 

Q. Before or after it was translated ? — A. After this. 

Q. After it was translated ? — A. After it was translated. 

Q. Let us hear you read it now and tell us what is in it ? — A. But I have heard 
^our translation here 






108 



Q. You saiil-7Tnr-4tB<tf<rttrat translated, because you understood it, now- let us hear 
what that letter means, not wiiat anybody told you or what you heard, hut we want to 
know what your knowledge of the contents of that letter is ? — A. (reading the lettei' as 

follows :) sinee we wrote to you. important events have occurred, the Half-lireeds 

and tSavages and Indians of Fort Battleford and vicinity, since we wrote to you important 
events have occurred, the Police came to attack and we encountered them. God has 
given us victory : 30 Half-hreeds and .t Crees have sustained the liattle against 1 20 men, 
after tliirty-tive or forty minutes of tire the enemies took flight, iiless (iod .... 

Q. Now, did you read the letter before it was translated in language to Pound- 
maker ? — A. No, I read it afterwards. 

Q. And he read it in French first of all t» Poundmaker and then afterwards in 
English ? — A. Th Ml ai'terwards in Cree. I think he read it in French first, but I am not 
sure. "N , , 

-Mr. Justice Ricuardsos. 

Q. Do you understand Cree ? — A. Oh, yes. 

-Mh. Robinson — -1 think, your Honor, that that will be the last witne.ss for tlie Crown. 
I am not (fuite sure till to-inorrow, and, of course we will adjourn now, it being 6 o'clock. 

Court here adjourned till 10 A. ^I. to-morrow. / 




\riiER Alexis \NnuK, sworn, examined by Mr. Lemieux. >Ir. F. R. ^I.\kce.\u Vjeing 
interpreter, 

Q. What is your name in religion! — A. Alexis .\ndrt', < (blat. 1 wfiuld prefer to 
S|ieak in French. I understand the English very well, but in speaking it, it is ((uite a 
different matter. 

Q. You are the Superior of the Oblats in the district of . . . . 1 — A. Carlton. 

.; Q. For how long '/ — A. Since seven years. ' 
: _ s ..." 

Q. Since how long have you been livimg in the country ! — \. I lived in the country 

since I860, in the Saskatchewan. 

Q. Do you know the population and the ha^jits of the people? — A. For twenty-five 
years I liavcbeen continually with the Half-breeds of the Saskatchewan above and below, 
I was with the same population in Dakota for four years. 

Q. You have been with Half-breeds, Catholics and Protestants ? — .\. They were 
mi.x£d up in the colony, and J knew a great many both of the Catholic and Protestant 
Half-breeds, and had a great niany friends among the Protestants. 

Q. Do you remember '84 and '8.5. Do you remember the events of those years ? — 
A. Yes very well. 

Q. Do you remember the circumstances under which the prisoner came into thi^ 
Saskatchewan country in 84 l — ^A. Yes, I remember very well. 

Q. At that time there was an agitation in the Saskatchewan about certain rights 
the Half-l)reeds claimed they had against the Federal go\ crniiient .'—A. Ves, about three 
months before there was au agitation among the English and FKeiuh Half-breeds. 

Q. State what were tlie claims of the Half-breeds towards the Federal flovernment ? 
— .\. .\t first I did not know what was the cause of the agitation in the country. 

Q-. Afterwards ? — X. After, we knew from Half-breeds that they were going to see 
Kiel. 



Q. .\nd finally Riel came into the country ?^A. Yes. 
Q. In what month ?^A. .\bout the 1st July 84. 




109 

Q. During the first months that he was in the country was there a constitutional 
• agitation going on ?— A. Yes there were meetings held amongst the French and English 
Half-breeds and at Prince Albert there was a meeting at which I was present uiyself! 

Q. Do you know that resolutions were passed and sent to the federal authorities ? 
— \. I did not know that resolutions were passed at the meeting. 

Q. Did you know of petitions and requisitions being sent to the federal Government 1 
— A. At that time I did not know of any, only of the meetings and the speeches. 

Q. .\t the assembly you were at, did you take part ? — A. No, I was there as a spec- 
tator and did not speak. 

Q. You did not take any part ? — A. No, I was only there as a spectator. 

Q. Did you yourself communicate with the Dominion Government ? — A. .\t what 
time ] . 

Q. I mean in regard to tiie rights and claims of the Half-breeds ? — A. \'«s, I com- 
municated. 

Q. .\t what time I — -A. I am not sure at what time, in 18S2, I did communicate. 

Q. iSince that have you communicated ? — .\. Xot directly. 

Q. How did you communicate ? — ^A. I communicated directly in rer;ard to Riel. 

Q. Can you tell me in what manner you communicated ? — \, I communicated in 
December, when Riel said he wanted to go out of the country because of the agitation 
that was existing in the country. 

Q. Uiil you c(^mmunicate after that ? — .\. No, I communicated after the rebellion. 

• Q. With whom ?— A. The Minister of Public Works. 

Q. Sir Hector Langevin 1 — A. Yes, asking help for those wlio were in distress. 

Q. Wliat were the claims of the Half-breeds? — A. Since when, you must distinguish. 

Q. From 1884 till the time of the rebellion 1 — .\. Since the arrival of the pri- 
soner in the country i 

Q. Yes ?^.\. It would be difficult to tell that, they changed from time to time since 
the arrival of the prisoner. 

Q. Before his arrival ? — A. They demanded patents for their Iscnd, demanded front- 
age on the river and the abolition of the taxes on wood, and the rfghts for those wlio did 
not have" scrip in Manitoba. v\ 

Q. In wliat way did the Half-breeds put forth their rights before the arrival of the 
prisoner l — -A. By public meetings at which I assisted several times myself. 

Q. Did you take part yourself ? — A. Yes, at all those meetings. 

Q. Were communications made with the Dominion Go\ernment, resolutions and 
petitions ? — A, I remember three or four times that theVe was. 

Q. Did you get any answer to your communications ? — A. I think we received an 
answer once, perhaps we received an answer once. ' 

Q. Was the answer fa voural)le ? — A. No, it was an ^v^asive answer saying they would 
take the question into consideration. 

Q. Tliat was the only answer to a number of commi/nications ? — A. Yes, I know of 
another communication made by Monseigneur Grandin to the same effect. , 

Q. Did he get a favourable response ? — A. No, I don't know of any. 

-•Q. Do you know if there was any answer sent to Charles Nolin, in regard to a 



petition sent to tlie Government ? — A. It was in regard to those meetings, I was 
making retVrence, I only know as to one answer. 

(j. Finally after these petitions and resolutions had been adopted at the public 
meetings and sent to the Government, was there a cliange in tlie state of things that 
existed then ? — A. Tlie silence of the Government produced great dissatisfaction in the 
minds of llit; people. 

Q. Ti) day are the people in a lietter position than they were before in regard to 
the riglits they claim ?— A. They have not yet received the patents for their lands on 
tlie South Saskatchewan. 

Mii. OsLER. — I must object to this class of questions being introduced. My learned 
friends have opened a case of treason justitied only by the insanity of the prisoner, and 
thev are now seeking to justify armed rebellion for the redress of tlieir grievances. These 
'two defences are inconsistent, one is no justification at all. We .ire willing to allow all 
iiossible latituili' but they have ^one as for as I feel they should go. We have allowed 
tiiem to (lescriiie ducuments which they have not produc'ed, and answers in writing so 
that they miuht not be embarrassed and that the outlini' of tin- jiosition might l)e fairly 
given to till- jury, but it is not evidence, and if my learned " friend is going into.it in 
detail, I think it -is objectiilnabh;. 

His HoNoii Mil. JusiifK Hu H.viiDsox. — Supposing they are going to produce these 
writings. 

Mr. O.sleu. — They could not be evidence, they would not be evidence in ju.stifi- 
cation. Tliat is admitfwl. It cannot be possible for my learned friend to open the case 
on one defence and go to the jury inilirectly upon another. Of course it is not really 
any defence in law and should not be gone into with any greater particularity. If this 
is given in evidence we will have to answer it in many particulars, and then there would 
Vie the (jiiestion of justifying the policy of the Government. 

His Ho-Son.MH. JusTiciif Rich-VRDSok. — It would be trying the fJovernment. 

Mr. I )si,eh. — It is as it were a counterclaim against tin' Government, anfl that is 

not open to any jierson on a trial for high treason. We have no desire to unduly limit 

my learned friend, but I cannot consent to try such an issue^as that here. 

%^ 
Mr. Lemieu.x. — I do not want to justify the rebellion, I w^ant to show the state of 

things in the country .so as to show that the prisoner was justified in coming into the 

country and to show the circumstances under wliich he came. 

His Honoh Mr. Justice Ricii.\ituso.s. — Have you not done that already. 

Mr. Lemiel'X. — I have perhaps to the satisfaction of the court, but perhaps others 
may not Ife so well satisfied. 

Mr. Usleh. — If you do not go any further we will withdraw oui- objection. 

Mr. Lemiel'X. — I want to get further facts, n(i)t in justification of the reliellion but 
to explain the circumstances under, which the accused came into the country. If I had 
a- 'right to prove what I have already proved a minute ago, I am entitled to prove other 
facts, If I was right a minute ago, I should be allowed to put similar questions now. 

His HovoR Mr. Justice Richardson. — ^The objection is not urged until you had 
gone as far as tlie Counsel for the Crown thought you ought to go. 

Mr. Le-MIEux. — It is rather late now to object. 

Mr. Osler. — I warned my learned friends quietly before. 

Mr. Lemieux. — Well, I will put the question and it can be objected to. 

Q. Will you say if the state of things in the country, the actual state of things in 
the country, in 1882, 1883 and 188-t, and if to-day the state of things is the same as in 



/ 



Ill 

1882, 1883 and 1884, if justice has been clone to the claims and just rights of the- 
people ? 

^1k. ( ).sLKit. That question must be objected to, it could not have had anything 
to do witli luiuging the prisoner here. I object first as a matter of opinion ; second, that 
it is a leading ([uestion, and third, that it is irrelevant to the issue. 

' ^Fr. Lemieux. — The most important objection is that it i.s leading. As to the 
opinion of tlie witness, I should tliink liis opinion is valuable, it is facts I want from 
the witness, I suppose he can j^ive his opinion based on the facts. If he says no or ves, 
I will ask hinj why, and he will give me his reason why. 

His Honor Mr. Justice Richardson. — That will be a matter of opinion. 

Mr. Lemieu.v. — I will put the question ancryou can object to it. 

Q. Do you know if at any time the Pfiminion Government agreed to accede to the 
demands made by the Half-breeds and (,'lergy, relative to the claims and rights you have 
spoken of in the jtreceding answer ! • 

Mlf. I )SLER. — I do not object to the (juestion, if contined to a date prior to the. 1st 
July, lSiS4, the time he was asked to come into the country, although the question is 
really irregular. I am not going on strict lines, but I do object to his asking as regai'ds 
the present state of things. I do not object if he confines his questions to the time prior 
to the {irisoner's coming to the country. 

Mu. Lemieu.x. — My ([uestion will show that the pi-isoner had reason to come. If the 
people had conhd-ence in him, he had a right to come and help tliem, to try and [lersuade 
the federal (i(j\ernment to grant what had been refused them so far. 

His Honor Mr. Justice Kiciiardson. — Your question is what, Mr. Lemieux ? 

Mr. Osler. — -I am willing that the question should be allowed if limited to the 
time prior to July, 1884. 

His Honor Mr. Ju.stice Richardson to Mr. Lemieux.-^s that the way you ppt it .' 

^Ir. Lemieu.x. — Yes. 

•■ Mr. Osler. — Then we withdraw the objection. • ■ 

His Honor. — Then we will have his answer. 

JIr. Lemieux. — I want to put the question generally. 

!Mr. Osler. — It is so general and difficult to grasp, anj'way, I won't object. 

Mr. Lemieux. — Perhaps it is difficult to you but not to the witness. 

i.}. Will you state if since the arrival of the prisoner in the country up to the time 
of the rebellion, the (Jovernment have made any favourable answer to the demands and 
claims of the Half-breeds ? — A. Yes, I know they have acceded to certain demands in 
regard to those who tlid not have any scrip in Manitoba. A telegram was sent on tlie 4th 
of March last, granting the scrip. 

Q. Hefore that time ! — A. Yes, regarding the alteration of survey of lots along the 
river, the^-e was an answer from the txoverniuent saying they «<iuld grant it, and that was 
an important question. 

Q. What (|uestion then remained to be settled 1 — A. The ((uestion of pntents, that 
has also been settleil in a ctM-tain way, because Mr. Duc^ was sent and I went with liim 
as interpreter. 1 

Q. What other question remained ? — A. Only the luestion of wood, timber. 

Q. Do you know that there is a commission sitting in regard to the claims aiijd peti- 
tions of the Half-breeds 1 — A. Yes. 



112 

Q. Do you know how many claims and demands ha\ e )>een settled hy that commission 
since it has been in existence ?— A. In what place is it? In the North- West or in the 
district of Carlton 'i ' 

Q. Generally. — A. I do not know, I know for my own dis^ct. 

Q. What do you know?— A. I know that at Batoche they gave three scrips. 

Q. Since the rebellion ? A. Yes, aliout three weeks ago. 

Q. At Duck Lake ?— A. Forty. 

Q. Since tl/e rebellion ?—A^^es, about the same time. 

Q. Do you know of any other ? — A. No, not in that district. 

Q. You have had occasion to meet the prisoner between July 18«4 and the time 
of the rebellion ? — A. Y'e.s. 

Q. What i^ the name of your parijih ? — A. Prince Albert. 

Q. You saw the prisoner there ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did. you .see him elsewhere? — A. At St. Laurent, several times, I don't know 
how often and I saw him at Batoche also. 

Q. Have you had occasion to speak often to liim on thf political situation and on 
religion ? — A. Freijupntly, it was the matter of our conversation. 

Q. Did you like to sjK'ak of religion and politicS'with him ? — A. No, I did not like to. 

Q. W\)l you give-ine the reason why you did not like to speak of religion and politics 
to him ? — A. Politics ami religion was a suliject he always spoke of in conversation, he 
loved those subjects. 

Q. Did he .speak in a sensible, manner? — A.' I wish to .say why I did not Uke to 
speak to him on those subjects. Upon all other matters, litterature and sciencej/fie was 
in his ordinary state of mind. '^ 

Q. Upon political subjects and religion? — A. Upon polities and religion he was no 
longer the same man ; it would seem as if there were two men in him, he lost all control 
, of himself on those questions. 

Q. When he spoke «f religion and politics ? — A. Yes, on those two matters he lost 
all control of himself. 

Q. Do you consider, after the conversations you have had with him, that when he 
spoke on politics and religion he had his intelligence? — A. Many times, at least twenty 
times, I told him, I would not speak on those sjibfects because he was a fool, he did not 
have his intelligence of mind. 

Q. I^^iat the practical result you have found in your conversation with Riel on 
political/and religious questions? — .\. It is my experience. 

You have had a good deal of experience with people and you have known persons 
who where afflicted with a mania ? — A. Before answering that, t want to state a fact to 
the court regarding the prisoner. You know the life of that man affected us during a 
certain time. 

Q. In what way? — A. He was a fervent Catholic, attending the church and attend- 
ing to his religious duties frequently, and his state of mind was the cause of great anxiety. 
In conversation on politics, and on the rebellion and on religion, he stated things which 
frightened the priests. I am obliged to visit every month the Fathers (priests) of the 
district. Once all the priests met together and they put the (|uestion, is it possible to 
allow that man to continue in his religious duties, and they unanimously decide<l that 
on this ipiestion he was not respori8ible,_on these questions ; that he could not suffer 
any contradiction on the question of-^ligion and politics, we considered that he was 



113 



<.-oiiij)letely a fool, in discussing these (luestious ; it was like showing a red flag to a 
hull, to UHP a vulgar expression. 



Hv Mr. C.vs(;r.\in. 

<^. I i)elieve hi the month of l)eeeinber 'S4 you had an interview wit!i Kiel and 
Nolin witli regard to a ci'rtain sum of money which the prisoner claimed frtfm the Federal ■ 
<tovernnnMit? — .\. Xot with Xolin, Xoliu was not present at the interview. 

(^. The pri.soner was there? — A. Yes. 

Q. Will you please state what the prisoner asked of the Federal Government? — A. I 
had two interviews with the prisoner on that suhjet. 

(^. Th(( prisoner clainnid a certain indemnity from the Federal (Jovernnient, didn't 
lie?-— A. When the prisoner madti.liis claim, I was there with another gentleman and 
he asked from the tiovernment .^lOO.OOU. We thought that was exhoitiitant and the 
jirisoner said "wait a little, I will take at once ."*3o,00(» cash. ' 

(.^. -Vnil on that condition the prisoner was to leave the country if the (io\ ernment 
«ave him .-<:!.">, DlXt.' -A. Vijs, that was the condition he put. 

<i. When was this.' — A. This was on the_,l':!r<l Decemher >!4. ' 

<J. Tln-re was also another inter\ lew hetween you and the j)risouer? — A. There has 
li.ien all lilt L'O interviews lietween us. 

Q. H- was alwiys after you to ask you to Usc'your influence with the Federal 
({ iveian -at to oliMin an indemnity.' — A. The tirst time he spoke of it was on the ll'tli 
l),'ceml)i'r, he hid never sp.iken a word of it ln^fori-, and on the L';5rd Decendier he spoke 
<il)oiit it again. - b'''-" 

i). He talked ahout it \ cry freipn-ntly! — A. On these two occasions only. 

i). That was his great occupation.' — A. Yes, at those times. 

• ^•. Is it n It true that tin- pris mer told you that he himself was the Halfhreed 
«jUc'stion.' — .v.. He did not s ly so in express ti'rms, hut he con\ eyed that idea, he said, if 
I am sitistied the H ilf-l>retMls wdl lie. 1 must explain this. This olijection was made to 
him tliit even if tlie (!,iverMmt-nt granted him .'rJlt.i.UDO, the Half-breed (piestion wouM 
remain the .same, and he s aid in answer to that if I am satistii-d the Half-breeds will 1 <•. 

i). Is it nut a fa.-t he tild you he w.iuld even acccjit a less sum than $3.'i,000?-- 
A. Yes, he said, " Use all the inHuence you can, you may not get all tliat but get all V< U 
can, and if you get less we will see." 

Q. When he. spoke of r.digion, the principal tiling of which he spoke, was it n<it the 
supremacy of Pope Lbo thi^ l;Jtli.' — A. IV^fore the rebellion he never spoke directly on 
4,hat (juestion as to the supremacy of the Pope. 

Q. On that i|Uestion he was perfectly reasonable ) —A. On religious ipiestions bef( le 
t^, time he blamed everything, he wanted to change Mass, and the liturgy, tl.e 
ee, ^monies and the symbols. 

f" Q. Do you pretend that every ma-H who lias strange ideas on religious matters is a 
fflSiH— A. No, I don't luetend that. 

Q. A man may havi! (larticular views on re'igious matters and still retain all his 
rjJasoii and intelligence I^A. That depends on the way in which he explains his ideas aid 
Jin' his eoAduct in expressing them. 

Q. A man may be a great reformer of great religious (|uestions without being a fool? 
-\. I do not deny history, but the reformer must have some principles which the prisoner 
iliever iiad. • . . 

8 • 



i- 



"T , . 112 

Q. Do you know how many claims and demands liave )<een settled liy that commission 
since it has been in existence ? — A. In what place is it ? In the North-West or in the 
district of Carlton 1 

Q. Generally. — A. I do not know, I know for my own district. 

Q. What do you know ?— A. I know that at Batoche they gave three scrips. 

Q. Since the rebellion ? A. . Yes, about three weeks ago. 

Q. At Duck Lake ?— A. Forty. 

Q. Since the rebellion 1 — A. Yes, about the same time. 

Q. Do you know of any other ?^A. No, not in that district. 

Q. You have had occasion to meet the prisoner between July 1884 and the time 
of the rebellion 1 — A. Yes. 

Q. What is the name of your pai-ish ? — A. Prince Albert. 

Q. You saw the prisoner there ? — A. Yes. 

Q; Did you see him elsewhere? — A. At St. Laurent, several times, I don't know 
how often and I saw him at Batoche also. 

Q. Have you had occasion to speak often to him on thi- political .situation and on 
religion ? — A. Freijuently, it was the matter of our conversation, 

Q. Did you like to speak of religion and politics with him 1 — A. No, I did not like to. 

Q. Will you give me the reason why ypu did not like to speak of religion and politics 
to him f — A. Politics and religion was a subject he always spoke of in conversation, he 
loved those subjects. 

Q. Did he speak in a; sensible manner? — A. I wish to say why I did not like to 
speak to him on those subjects. Upon all other matters, litterature and science, he was 
in his?ordinary state oWnind. 

Q. Upon political subjects and religion ? — A. Upon polities and religion he was no 
longer the same man ; it would seem as if there were two men in him, he lost all control 
of himself on those questions. . 

Q. When he spoke of religion and politics ? — A. Yes, on those two matters he lost 
all control of himself. 

Q. Do you consider, after the conversations you have had with him, that when he 
spoke on politics and religion he had his intelligence ? — A. Many times, at least twenty 
times, I told him, I would not speak on those subjects because he was a fool, he did not 
have liis intelligence of mind. 

Q. Is that the practical result you have found in your conversation with Riel on 
political and religious questions? — .\. It is Iny experience. 

Q. You have had a good deal of experience with people and you have known persons 
who where afflicted with a mania ? — A. Before answering that, I want to state a fact to 
) the court regardiiuf the prisoner. You know the life of that man affected us during a 
certain time. ' 

Q. Iri what way ? — ^A.^He was a fervent Catholic, attending the church and attend- 
ing to his religious duties frequently, and his state of mind was the cause of great anxiety. 
In conversation on politics, and on the rebellion and on religion, he stated things which 
frightened the priests. I am obliged to visit every month the Fathers (priests) of the 
district. Once all the priests met together and they put the question, is it possible to 
allow that man to continue in his religious duties, and they unanimously decided that 
on this ((ttestion he was not responsible, on these questions ; that he could not suffer 
any contradiction on the question of religion and politics, we considered that he was 



113 

<.-oin|)letely a fool, in iliscussiug these questions ; it was like showing a red flag to a 
l>ull, to UMc a vulgar expression. 



!>>• Mr. C'.vsdUAiN. 

O. I lielieve in tlie month of Dei-eniljer 'S4 you had an interview wit!i Kiel and 
Noliii with regard to a certain sum of money whit-li the prisoner claimed from the Federal 
(Jtivernment? —A. N'nt with Nolin, Xoliu was not present at the interview. ^ 

n. The prisoner was tliere? — .V. Yes. 

Q. Will you please state what the pri.soner asked of the Federal Government? — A. I 
ha 1 two interviews with the prisoner on that sulijet. 

(^. The prisoner claimed a ceitain indemnity from the Federal (ioveriiment, didn't 
lie? — V. When the prisoner mach? his claim, I was there with another gentleman and 
lie asked from the (Jovernment .SlOOiOOO. We thought that was exhorhitant and the 
pri.soner said "wait a little, I will take at once SS-i.OUO cash. ' 

(}. .Vnd on that condition the prisoner was to leave the country if the ({overiiineiit 
g.ixe him .-^ll-'ijOKt).' -A. Yes, that was the cdiiditiciu he put. 

<i. When was this f -A. Tlii-> was i>n the_,L':!rd Deceniher '84. 

t.J. Tlu-re was also another inter\iew hetween you and the prisoner? — A. There ha.s 
Ji.nMi ahiut I'D interviews lietween u>. 

<^. l\- was alw lys aftei- ymi to ask you ti) usc'your iutluence with the Federal 
({ ivi'i-.i:n Mt to oliMiii an imlemiiity .' — A. The tirst time he spoke of it was on the 12th 
l),'ceml>;'r, he had never spiikeii a wiir.l of it lipfore, and on the "J:>i-d Decemlifr he .spoke 
alioiit. it iijjain. - .,, .u i 

i). Me ta'ked aliout it very freijuently .' — A. On these two occasions only. 

<^. That was his great occupation': —A. Yes, at those times. 

»,». I-. it II >t trill- tliit thr prisiiici- told you that lie himself was the Half hreed 
«|ll<'Svion.' — .V, He did not s ly so in express terms, Imt he conveyed tliat idea, he .said, if 
I am sitistied the H ilf-hrer-ds will lie. 1 must exidain this. This olijcction was made to 
him thit even if the (iovernment granted hint S.'io.UOO, the Half-hreed (piestion wou'd 
remain the same, and he siiil in answer to that if I am satis-tied the Half-lireeds will 1 i-. 

I (}. Is it not a f I -t he told you he would even accejit a less sum than S!3o,000?-- 
A. Yes. he s:iid, - ii,e all the influence you can. you may not get all that hut get all yi u 
i-aii, and if you get less we will .see." 

Q. Whi'ii he spoke of r-'ligion, the principal thing of which he spoke, was it not the 
Hpremi(-y of Pope L:!0 the 1.1th.'— A. H -fore- the rehelliiui he never spoke directly on 
hilt cpiestion as tollie supremacy of the Pope. 

Q. On that c|uestioii he was perfectly rea.sonalile ?— A. On religious questions bcfcie 
th. time he hlamed everything, he wanted to change Mass, and the liturgy, tie 
et) unoliies and the svinhols. 

" Q. Do you pretend that every man who has strange ideas on religious Hiatters is a 
7>1?— A. No, I don't pretend that. 

Q. A man m ly have particular views on re'igious matters and still retain all 1i:k 
rtUsou and intelligence/ — A. That depends on the way in which he explains his ideas ai.d. 
iMkf his uoiVduct ill expressing them. i ,7 

Q. A man may he a great reformer of great religious (|uestions without heing a fool? 
-.\. I do not deny history, hut the reformer must have some puinciples which the pri.soii(^ 
iever had. • ' 

8 . 



• 114 

Q. Is it'iiot trufi that the prisoner has fixed principles in his new religion ? A. He- 
hal t'i3 priu'iiple thit he was an autocrat in religion and polities, and he ehangcd his . 
opinion as he'wislied. 

Q. Do yiiu say he changed his religion as he wished .' — A. His ideas changed, to day 
he atlinitted this and tomorrow denied it ; he was his own judge in these matters, he 
beleived hinisqlf infallilile. 

Half-ljreeds are a iieojile extremely religious ( — A. 1 



adini 



Q. Is it ijfot a fact that th 
it the faqf, very religious. 



-A. Y. 



Q. Is it jiot true that religion has a great inHucnce u])on them ?- 

Q. Is it not true that ,i man who tried to govern tliciii liy in<lucing them to com- 
pletely diaiig^their religion or to do away with ii, would have no influence with them at 
all? — A. Hlxactly, it was just because he was so religious and apjieared so devout that 
. he exercised such a great intiuence'upon them. I wish to <-x|ilain this point liecause it is 
a gre it puint. With Halt'-lireeds he never was contiadictcd and conseijuentl y he was never 
ex^riti'il with theni, and he appeared in his natural state with them. He tlid not admit 
his strange views at first, it was only after a time that he proclaime<l them and especially 
after the pr<(visional government had been proclaimed. 

By Mr LEMimx. • i^ 

. . ' \ 

Q. Is it not a fact that if any opposition was made to Riel, he liecanie irascible and 

violent and almost uncontrollable ( — A. As far as my ])ersonal experience goes he would 

not allow the least opposition at all, immediately his phjsiognomy changed and he 

)>ecame a different n)an. ' ! • 

Mr Cascrain objects to this evidenci- on the ground that it should have been gi\eii 
on the examination in chief. 



Philippe dAR.v'oT, swOrn, examined )>y Mr Fitzpatrick. 

y. What is your name ? — A. Philippe (Jarnot. , 

<j. Where do you live when you are at home ? — A. At Batoche. 

Q. Where are you living at the present time — living now 1 — In Kegina jail. 

Q. Do you know Riel the prisoner at the bar 1 — A. I do. 

Q. You have known him for how long? — A. I .saw him for the first time in Helena 
Montana, about seven years ago. J 

y. Did you see him at Batoche during the course of last summer or in the 8nskat> 
ehewan district ? — A. I saw sim last fall. 

Q. What tim?jlast fall ?— A. In October. 

y. From that time up to the month of March last did you have occasion to see him 
.frequently T -A. No, I did not see much of him, I only saw him once or twice. ct 

Q. During that time<lid you have any conversation with him ? — A. No, not tha '[ 
reniemljer. i 

Q. No conversation Whatever witli him ? — A. I had some small conversation liut 
notie that I can remember well. . 

Q. Do you rememfjer during the course of last autumn and last winter up to the 
month of March, do you remend>er having any conversation with liim on religious mat- 
ters or on political matters ? — A. No, I never had. \\,\ ' 

Q. No conversation whatever up to tliat time! — A. 1 had some conversation but 
not on religion or politics. ' > 



115 



Q. Did you at any time talk to him on religion previous to his arrest t — A. I did, 
after the trouble, after the 18th March. 

Q. Was he livin<{ at your house ? — A. No, but he came there occasionaliy and slept 
there sometimes. 

Q. When he spoke to you of religion do you remember what he .said to you t 

- ^A. I know he was talkinj; to nie about chanjj;in<; the Pope or some thing of that kind, 
wantinj; to name Bishop Bourget, of Montreal, Pope of the New World as he named it, he 
spoke to me several things about religion that I cannot remember. 

t^). Did lie say anything to you about the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of (iod ? — A. Yes, 
he said in my presence, not to me exactly, that the spirit of Elias was with him. - 

■y. IHd he say he lia<l any of tlie divine ivttrit)Utes that are generally attributed tsy 
Elias '! — A. That is what 1 think he meant by that. 

(}. What did he say about it as far as you can recollect.' — A. He wanted the people 
in tlic meeting to acknowledge liim as a piopliet and he gave them to understand that 
he had the spirit of Klias in him and that he was ]irophesying. 

Q. |)(i vou remeiidiei' any of his numerous proiiiiecies ? — .\. 1 don't rem«-nd)er thejii 
all. 

t^. I >o you remember any of tliem .' A." I know jA^ry morning, almost every mor- 
ning, he would i-ome in front of the people and say su/h ind such a thing would happen, 
I don fiememlier any of them in particular, 

t^. \ on said a moment ago lie spent some nights at your house.' —.A. Yes, he slept 
once or twite at my house. 

Q. During the nights he spent there did you notice anything remarkable about hiui I 

— .v. I know he was praying loud all night and kept me awake souietimes- 

(^. K\ery one else was asleep in the house at that time !- A. I was the only other 
one in the liouse witli him. 

<^>. Can you reniendjer now the kind of prayers he delivered himself of.' — A. It was 
prayers he was making up himself. I never heard them before. 

<^. You are a Roman Catholic ? — .\. Yes. 

t^. You are a French Canadian? —.A. Yes. 

I C^. Had you ever hearti any of those prayers before ? — A . I never heard them except 
^iomeof them, he would say the prayer "Our Father... but all the rest of the prayers I 
never heard them liefore except by him. 

y. During the time you saw him when he delivered himself of the.se prophecies you 
illuded to, what was his temper, how did he act when contradicted I -A. He would not 
<tand contradiction by any one, he had to have his own way in everything. 

Q. Was he \ery smooth tempered ? — A. No, he was not smooth tempered. 

(J. Irritable ?-A. Yes. "" 

It 
■ t^. Did he make any declaration to you as to what he thought himself to be, in the 

fay of power or authority ? — A No, he did not make any statemeiits to me, but in my 
resence he made a declaration that he was representing St. Peter. 

Q. Did he aspire to any ])articular gift or pretend he was endowed with the abilities 
f a poet, musician, or orator 1 — A. No. , 

Q. You did not hear him boast of his great intellectual qualities ! — A. No. 

Q. Did he at any time communicate to you his views with reference to the way in 
f\iic]\ the c(nintry was to l>e divided in the event of his success 1— A, He did in my pre- 



< 



IIG 



^ 



ii. TelJ us wliiit lie said to you about that as far as you can reineiiil>er ? A. He 
« a« talkiuf?; about tin- country Iteiu;^ divided into seven provinces, one for the French, 

(ierinans, IrfsJi, and I dontjknow what els'e. there were to lie seven ditterent nationalities. 
; I \ ' 

Q. Do you reniendier anytliin;; else liftsides those you have mentioned, what other 
foreij;ners .'A. Italians. 

(^. Hungarians; -A. 1 cant renieniher particularly very well, I know it was seven 
dirt'erent provinces, and seven ditterent nationalities. 

»j. Did the plan he then statt^l appear to you a very tVasilile one i — A. I did not 
believe he could succeed in that, 

Q. Di(l he say lie expected any assistance from tjiese people? A. Yes,lie iiieutioiied 
lie expecte({ assistance from them, he mentioned heS'xpected the assistance of an army 
of several nationalities, and I remember he mentioiied the Jews. He expected their 
assistance and money, he was going to give them a province as a reward for their helji. 
That is what 1 understood him to say. > , 

(i Did lie tell you how he had arianf<ed that oi^if he had made any ariaiigemeiits 
with these people '! — A. He might, but I don't remenlber. . 

, <^. In his conversation with you, or with others in your |iresence on these sinrjects, 
did he at any time give y(ni any i'litiinatioii that he had any iloubt of his success, that 
any obstacle could [irevent him from succeeding ; A. No, he always mentioned that he 
was going to succeed, that it was a dix iiie mission that he had, and that he v.a> only an 
iiifetrunient in thehands of (iod. ^ ^ 

<j. When he talked of other matters than religion aiid the success of his |ilans, how 
di<l he act anil talk generally .' — .\ I never noticed any diH'erence in his talk on other 
matters, because I never hail much intercourse with him only during the time of the 
troulile, 1 met him once before that 

1/ Did he a]>pear to pe actuated by any frieiuls]ii(ifcpr utlni' peii|ile, or did he appear 
to Ix' wia]H)«'d up in him.self .' Did he ap]iear tfi liaxe any sympathv for any one except 
himself; Did he ajipeai- to think of any one but himself, I mean during these times you 
had loiiversation with hini ,' \. 1 could not answei that i|uestion, because I don't under- 
stand it rightiy. I 

i}. When he s](oke of religion and about the country, and in the ditl'erent interviewlj, 

with you or others, did you understand that he had any idea of thinking of the welfaieijf 

anyone at all excejit himself, that he was the sole person to be considered .' A. It 

seemed as if he was working; in the interest of the Ifalf-hreed population and the scttlei^ 

ifelieiallv. He mentioned that . 

\ 

(j. Did you coniinunibite to anyone your impression of this man what vou tJiouglit 

of him? A." I did. 

Q. What did you tliipk of him *— A. I thought the man was crazy, because he acte(l 
very foolish. 

By Mr. RoHixsox. 

Q. He had great iiittuence over the Half-breed population tliere, hadn't lie ! -k 
Yes, he could do almrtst what he wanted with them. 

Q. Are you one of those who followed him ? — A. No. I followed him, but agaii\jt 
iny will. 

Q. What do you mean? -A. When a man lias a stronger force than 1 have I ha -e 
to follow him, he came to me with an armed force and I had to go. 

Q. Do you say you were forced to follow him by violence '/ Is that what you iiiea f 



117 

— A. 1 don't mean to say I was forced exactly l>y violence. He cauie and Immght me 
from my house, lie came with armed men, and I saw it was no use resisting. 

ij. I*n you moan to say you followed him because of the arme<l men, and that that 
■was nil that influenced you ?- A. Ves. 

if. He ha<l fjreat influence over all the Half-breed population ? — A. I always thought 
he liad lots of influence amon<;st the Half-breeds. 

Q. I believe they looked to him as a leader and tVillowed him ? A. Yes, they did. 

C^. They relied uj> ^n his judgment and advice ? A. They did. 



J 



Vir.\i. F.jUkmuni) sworn, exa.uincd by Mi'. L-iuicux. (.Vrtliur hewis swoi'u as 
inter|ireter. ) 

Q. Your profession ? — A. I am a Priest of St. Laiwent, in the district of^Carlton, 
an Oblat Father. f 

i.}. For how loiii; have you been a Pi'icst ? .V. Ten yeai-s. 1 arrixc<l at the place 
in the year T"). 

*.). Have you known the pri^iuer, Kiel, sinie 'M4 .' .\. Yes, directly siniie^ his 
ariival. I knew the prisoner by what I irid hcinl, but 1 had never seen him tifl then. 

({. Since his arrival in the countrv, have you had .several conversations with the 
prisoner up to the time of the rebellion I -A. Very often. 

(.,». Xt St. Laurent ?- A. At St. Laurent, at Uatoche duriiij,' the War. 

(). Had you any ci>n\frsation with the pri.soner on religious and'^>olitical subject.s ? 
—A. \'ery often. 

(}. Wi-re y(ai present at the inei-ting whiL-h Father Andre sjioke of in which Kiel's 
.sanity was (|uesti(ine(l ? — A. Yes, I was )ire.sent. 

(j>."'l>id you agri-e witii the other Fathers in llic- upiiiiim iis to the sanity of tlie |>ri- 
sonei- ? .V. It was me <onsulted the Hcvd. Fatln-rs. 

<-). Were you personally aeipiainted with the facts upon which you ba.sed your 
opinion as to the in.sanity of Kiel ? A. 1 was personally acciuaintcd with the facts upon 
which they based their opinion. 

' ij. Will you jilease state up<in what facts you l)aseil your opinion that the prisoner 

was not .sane on religious or political matters ? A. Permit me to divide the answer into 

j two, the facts befcjre the rebellion, anil the facts during the ri'liellion. ISifore the rebel- 
lion it appeari'd as if theie wen; two men in the piisoner ; In |iri\ate con\ersation he was 

■ affable, polite, pli-asant and a charitable man t<V nie. I noticed that e\ en « hen he was quiet- 
ly talk<;(l to alpout the ati'airs of politics and goxernment and lie was not contradicted, he 
was ipiite rational, but as soon as he was contradicted on the.se subjects then he became 

, a different man and lie would be carried away with his feelings. He wouhl go so far as 

j-to use violent ex|iivssions to tho.se who were even his friends. As .soon as the ivbellion 
•ommeiiced then he became exciteil, and he was carried away and he lost all control of 
ihimself and of his temper. He went so far, that when a Father contradicted him he 
became (piite e.vcited, and he had no respect for him and he often threatened to destroy 
all the churches. He says : There is danger for you, but thanks for the friendship T have 
for you, I will protect you from any harm. ( >nce 1 wi-nt to St. .Vntoine and there I met 
ji numlier of priest.s, and Kiel says : I have been ap]iointed by the t'ouncil to be your spiri- 
tual adviser. I said our spiritual advi.ser was the llishop, and Mr. Hielwould not be him. 
There is only one way you can lie our adviser, the only way you can become .so is by 
shooting us, the only way you can direct us is l)y shooting us, uiul then you i\ui direct 
our iMipses in any wa}' you like. That was my answer to him. 



r 



118 



(The interpreter states that lie does not feel qualified to correctly interpret the 
■evidence, and Mr. Cas),'rain pro|)oses that he translates the evidence given liy the defence, 
and Mr. Fitzi>atriek that given hy the Crown ; wliich is agreed to.) 

Witnes.s coutinue<l He has extraordinary ideas on the snhjcct of the Trinity. 

The only (iod was tiod the Father, and that God the Son was not (iod, the Holy-(ihost 
was not (Jod either. The .second person of the Trinity was not (iod, and as a conse(iuen«,-e 
of this the Virgin Mary was not the mother of (Jod, hut the mother of the son of God. 
That is the rea.son why he changed the formula of the pniyer which is commindy known 
as " Hail Mary ' Instead of saying " Hail Mary, mother of (Jod " he said " Ifail Mary, 
mother of th^3on of (Iml." He did not admit tlie doctrines of the Cliurch of the Divine 
presence. According tohis ideas it wasnoi (Jo<I whowas present in the Host, liut an ordinary 
man six feet high. As to his political ideas he wanted Hrst to go to Winnii)eg, and Lower 
Oanada, and the ITnited States, and even to France, and he said we will take your coun- 
try even, and then he was to go to Italy and overthrow the Pope, and then he would 
choose another Pope of his own making. v 

Mr Osi.eh. — Vour Honor, w-eXrould prefer the interpretation should lie done liy a 
regular interpreter. I don't think it is within the ordinary rules of the e\ ideiTce that it 
should be done as it is now. It is a c|uestion even whether even if con.sented to as in 
this c-iOve, it would he hinding in a criminal case. 

pourt heie adjourned for lunch 




On Court resuming, Louis Bourget was appointed interpreter. 

Q. Before adjournment you said that Kiel had said he was going down to Wiiniipeg, 
that he was going to the Province of Queliec, then lie was going to cross the ocean and 
go on to Paris and Rome, and have a new Pope elected. He would get one appointed oi' 
appoint himself as Pope .'A. Ves. he said something to that^ti'ect. 

Q, Have you made u]i your mind aliout the prisoner lieiiig sane, as far as religious 
snatters are coj;cei-iied ? — A. We were very much emiiarrassed tirst, hecause sometimes 
he looked reasonable and .sometimes lie looked like a man who did not know what he was 
saying. . ^ 

Q. Finally ? A. We Uiade up our minds there was no way to tixplain his conduct,, 
but that he was insane ; otherwise, he would have to be too big a criminal. \ 

Q. As the agitation Was progressing, did you notice a change in his conduct, in his 
mind ? — A. A great change, he was a great deal more excitable. 

Q. At the time of the rebellion, you fwmed the opinion that he was insane ?- A. 
Yes. I can tell some facts to that ettect. 

Q. K it is not too long, will you tell what it is? A. Once he was asked by tint 
people to e.xplain his views on religion, on religious matters, so they could .see through 
them.' When he found out the clergy were, against him, that he was contradicted, he 
turned against the clergy, particularly against me, and oppo.sed the clergy, and kept fol- 
lowing me into the tents wherever I would go. He compelled me to leave the jilace, 
go down to the river and cross to the other side. There were several W(mien there who, 
came to shake hand.i, with me. The prisoner had a. very extraordinary expression upon 
his face, he was excfted by the opinion he gave upon religion The prisoner sjioke 'o the 
women and said : "Woe unto you if you go to the pi-iests, becau.se you will be killed by 
the priests." All of a sudden, when I came to the boat which was not very ea.sy to get 
into, the prisoner with grea^ politeness came up and said, " Look out Father, I w ill lielj 
you to get on the boat." ;■ 

Q. In an instant he pa.s.sed from great rage to great politeness in a very few 
minutes ? -A. Yes. The tlrst time I was at Batoche I was brought before the Council by 
the prisolier. 



I 



119 f 

Q. When you first came to Batoche, wen- you friends with the prisoner ? — A. Yes» 



Q. You repeat wliiit yi>u liave already said that in matters political and religious' 
the prisoner was not iu his mind ? -A. Yes. 

Q. And could not lie controlled ? A. Yes. 

* r 

Q. And was not sane ? —A. Yes. 

C^. What happened at tlie Council house when he lirought you there ?^A. I was 
to render on account of my conduct as a priest and several other matters a;j(ainst the 
provisional government. The jirisoner j;ot very much excited and called nie a little 
tiger. 

t/. Why did he call you a little tiger ? — A. I don't know, I suppose liecau.se I con- 
,tradicted him. It was alxmt ten o'clock when I asked to go, late at night, and tlien the 
prisoner liecame very polite and offered a carriagi^ to convey me. The Council was in 
the mom al)ove, and there was a stairs I had to go down, and I had a parcel in my hands 
under my arms. With extraordinary politeness, the prisoner took the parcel and said 
" Fathei', you may hurt yourself. " 

Q. Did he ever .show you a little hook in which he had written those prophecies in 
the liliHxl of the liutfalo as to the future of this counti-y ? — A. I heard of it hut I never 
saw it, the prisoner never spoke to me about tiie hook. 

l!y Mli. C.\s(:u.\tx. 

Q. It was when the prisoner was contradicted that he liecame uncontrollalile ? — A. 
Yes, that is what I said 

Q. It was then the prisoner liecame uncontrollalile? — A Ye.s, and at other times to. 

() The Half-lireeds did not contradiit him on religious matters ?■ — A Some of the 
Half-Iireeds did contradict him. 

Q. A great lUMnlier, most of the H ilf-lireeds followed him in his religious views ? 
— A. I cannot say, '" most ' would lie too many. 

(^. A gi'eat nundier ? A. Yes, and .several did not dare to express their views. 

<^. Ilefore the reliellion liegaii he was (piiet and .sane in mind ? — A Yes, relatively, 
e.vcept .sometimes, when he was contradicted, as 1 said this morning. j 

ij When do you fix the commencement of the relieilion ] — A. The ISth of March. 
/The prisoner came himself and proclaimed the rehellion. 

-Q. He made you take an oath of neutrality towards the provisional government, 
Iduring the relieliion .' -A. No, there was no oath liut there was a wi-itten promise, cou- 
fcernin;* the exercise of the ministry 

tj. Was it in terms of neutrality towards the provisional government ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You said there was no other Way to explain his conduct than to say he was in- 
sane oi- a great criminal, and you would rather say he was insane. Rather than say he was 
ji great crimin:d, you would say he was insane f — A. I did not say that, liut in my 
|mind it was the liest way to ex'jilain it. 

Q. You had naturally a great deal of friendship for the pri.soner? — A. I could not 
[liave friendshij), liecause I did not know him at the beginning, and afterwards, when I 
[l»ecame acquainted with him, the friendship was broken off. 

l^t. lietween the time when he came to the Mission and the time you had a rupture 
[with hiin, is it not true that you and he were friends, that you had a great deal of friend- 
iship for him ? — A. Yes, as I would have for you. 

y. Religion has a great inrtuence on Half-breeds ? — A. Y] y hat sense ? 



120 

Q. Ill a geiit'i-jil way. Tlicy are a religious people l.y iiistinet ? ■ A. Yes, religifm 
lias a <;i-eat iiittueiu'e with them. 



FhA!«i,-oi8 Rov .sworn, e.\aiiiine<l l>y Mr. FlTZP.MHUK. 

Louiii Uourget, iiiterj^reter. 

Q. You are a tlfiftor of lueclecine ? — A. \'es. 

y. iti the city of Qneljec ? —A. Yes,- 1 belong to Qiiehec. 
' Q. Whibt is your position in (^ueliec ? A. For a great inwnlier cif years I hav e lieeii 
l^ietlical supel-iuteiuleiit aiul one <if the proprietors of tlie lunatie asylum of IJeauiKirt. 

Q. How long have you lieen connected with the asylum as a superintendi-nt ? — 
A. More thiHi tifteen or si.Kteen years. 

Q. You are also a iiifmher of the Society of .Vmeiican . . . . of the Siniety of the 
SuperinteiKlent.s^f the insane Asylums of America ? — A. Yes. 

y. During the.se tifte»n or si.vteen years, yoiy duties called you to maki- a special 
.study of iJm' diseases of the lirain ? Is it not true that it has lieen necessary for you to make 
a s|M'cial study of diseases of the liraiii >. — A. Yes, it was my duty to go to the principal 
jasylums in the I'nited tStutes, and .see how the patients were treated there. 

<j. Had vou any connection with tin- asylum at ISeauport, in IS7."i and IH"*)? - 
-A:- Yes. 

Q. You were at that time supeiintenilenl of the asylum .' — A. ^ es. 

"'y. In those years or aliout that time, did you hayc occasion to see the prisoner .' .\. 
Ctytainly, many times. 

Q. Where <lid you see him ? -A. In the a.syluni. 

y. Can you tell the date ? A. Y'es, the date was taken from the register when I 
left Queliec. ' 

Q. What date is that '. —A. I took the entry from tin- register in the hospital In the 
beginning of this month. 

l^. Was \w admitted with all the formalities reipilred liy law ; — .\. Yes. 

Q. Will you tell me what time he left the asyluin '. — .V. He was discharged aliout 
the 21st .Innuary, after a residence in the hou.se of ahout nineteen months. 

Q. Had you occasion to study at that time the mental disea.se liy which the pri.soni^" 
was affected ? — A. Yes. 

t^. l)id you haxe relations with him during that time and did ymi \yatcli him care- 
fully during that time '. — A. Not eVeiy day, hut very often. 

Q. Can you .say now what mental disease the prisoner was then suffering fn>m '.^ 
A. He. was suffering from what is known hy aijthoiities as niagalomania. 

Q. Will you give the symptoms of this disease ? .\. Many .symptoms of the di.sei«ie 
are found in the ordinary maniacs. The particular characteristic of the malady is that |n 
all cases they show great juilgment, in alt ca.ses not immediately connected with tike 
particular disease with which tliey suffer. 



tely connected with tike 
lors, what are the otiifr 



Q. Will you speak from meiiiory or liy refering to the authors, wiiat are tlie otiifr 
symptoms of this disease ? -A. They sometimes give you reasons which would he reasoli- 
alde if they were not .starting from a fal.se idea. They are very elever on those di.scu.ssiol 
and they have a te'ndeiicy to irritability when you (|uestion or doubt their menta.l'coml 
tion, because they are under a strong impression that they are right and they consider It 
to l>e an insult when you try to bring theui to reason again. On ordinary ipiestions thtl 



121 

may l>e reasonable and sometimes may be very clever. In fact, without cai-eful watching 
they would lead one t) think that they were well. 

Q. Was lie thei-e some weeks or niontlis before you ascertained his mental condition ? 
— A. Ye.s, 1 waited till then to classify him as to his mental condition. We wait a few 
weeks before classifying the patients. 

Q. Docs a feeling of pride occupy a prominent position in that mental di.sea.se f A. 
Yes dirt'erent forms, religion and there are great many with ]>ride. AVe have kings with 
us. 

Q. Is the (piestion of selfishnofts or egotism pi'oniinent in these cases? — A. Yes. 

C,>. Arc they liable to change their aHcctions rapidly ?- -A. Yes, because they are 
KU.sceptible to the least kind of attraction. 

Q. In that particular malady are the |)atients generally inclined to be sanguine as to 
tlie success of their project ?, A. The ditKculty is to make them believe that they will not 
have success : you cannot bring them to chani^e, that is ii characteristic of the disease. 

Q. Are people who sutler of this particular form of disease liable to be per: mently 
cured, or are they liable to fall buck into tlie old malady ? -A. They generally riinain in 
that condition, they may have sensibh^ moments and th<^ intermission wouldn t imerfiie. 

(). In a case of this kind, cihi1<1 a casual obsei-ver, without any medical experience, 
form an estimate as to the state of the man's mind ?- A. Not usually, unless he makes a 
special .study of the case. There is more or less ditterenee ifi each case. 

i}. \Vlii>t is the position of the mind of a man sutferin;; from this iliseasc, in ivffreme 
to other suhjects whicii do not come within the radius of his mania? -A. Tliev will 
answer i|Uestions as anv other man with a sens,: of reason, it is only when they touch 
the spot of their monomania that they beeome delirious. 

(J. You stated thai tlie pijsoner left the asylum in 1S7^>? .V. In .lanuaiy ls7f<. 

i}. Have ycHl ever seen him from that time till yesterday ? .\. No, never. 

1^. llo you recognize him perfeitly as the siime person who was in your asylum iit 
ISjti and IS7S? .\. Yes. 

i^. Were you jireseiit at the examination of the w!tne.-.ses that took jilace today 
and yesterday ? .\. Partly. 

l^. I 'id you hear the witnesses describing the actions of the prisoner as to his pecu- 
li(ir \ lews on religion, in reference to his power, to his hoping to succeed the Pope and as to 
lijis prophecies yestenlav and today ? — A. Yes. 

(,). From what you heard from those w itne.s.se.s, and from the symptoms tlieyjaove 
have been exhiliited liy the piisoMer,are yon now in a i)osition to say whether or not at 
liat time he was a man of sound mind ? -.\. I am iierfectly certain that when the prisoner 
las under care, he was not of sound mind, but lie became cured liefore he left, more or 
I'.ss ; but from what I In ard here to day 1 am ready to say that I believe on those occa- 
fions his mind was unsound, and that he was lali aring under the disease so well des- 
[••ibed by Dagcaist. 

Q. Do you believe that under the state of mind as described by the witnesses and to 

liicli you refer.that he was capable or incapable of knowingthe nature of the acts whicli 

|e did? — .\. No, I do not lielieve that he was in a condition to be the niaster of his acts 

(1 I positively swear it, and 1 have jieople of the same charaeter under my supervision. 

ii. Will you swear from the knowledge you have heard ? A. From the witnesses ? 

Q. That the man did not know what he was doing or whether he was contrary to. 
Iw' in reference to the particular delusion? -A. No, and for another reason, the same 
f laracter of the disea.se is shown in the last jieriod, the same as when he was with us 



h. 



■t| 



^ 



r 



122 



■there is no diftereuce. If there was any difference in the syuiptoni«, I would have doutits, 
but it was" of the same character so well describeil by Daj^oust, who is taken as an autho- 
rity and has been adopted in France as well as in America and England. , 

Q. The o])inion you have formed as to the soundness of his mind is based on the 
facts tliat the symptoms disclosed by the witnesses here y^erday and to-day are to a 
large extent identical with the symptoms of his malady as (flfclose<l while lie was at'your 
Asylum ? — A. Yes. i . • 

By Mr. ( )sler. ' " . • 

(j. You arc one of the projirietors of theasylum ?-^A. Tes. 

Q. It is a private asylum under government supervision ? — A. It has theTharacter 
of a private asylum as to the condition of tiie board k)f the patients, but it is iv public 
institution in that sense of the word, we receive patients by order of the Government. 

Q. But it i.s a j)rivate asylum as far as its financial basis is concerned .'• — A. No, 
becau.se it is ruled by the tiovernment. 

Q. Is it owned by the Government or l»y the projjrietors ? — A., By the projirietors. 

Q. It is only subject to inspection by the (Joyernment? — .\. To insjiecting and 
visitinj^ besides. 

(^. Is the profit or jo.ss of the establishment liorne by the proprietors ?--X. Yes, liy 
tiie proprietors.' 

(). What is tiie extent of your acconnnodation, how many patients? — A. I do not 
know whetlier you have the right to ask tliese nuestions. 

Q. How many patients have you got? — A. (Sometimes the number increases and 
sometimes it diminishes, acco,rding to the discharges, [think there would be an average 
of from KOO to 900. 

(/ It is from the profit of keeping tliese patients that tlie jiroprietors make money ? 
—A. .And to pay expenses and the interest upon a large capital put in. 

Q. You are paid l»y the (iovernment and paid by private patients ? A. When we 
have them. 

^■Q. And the proprietors manage it as a place to cure and where they board these 
^ tliousand people? -.\. We have a place to cure and take care of tlio.se poor people who 
■cannot take care of themselves. 

Q. Who manages the institution ? — A. There is a medical superintendent. 

(J. Who manages the financial part of the institution and looks after the bread and 
butter of the i)atients ? -A. We liave a treasurer to look after that 

Q. You have a medical superintendent to look after t^e medical department ? — 
.A. Yes, and we have rules and regulations of the house. 

Q. The proprietors only have a general supervision ?— A. More than that, I my.st;lf 
aiu a specialist. 

y. Yon are (juite a .specialist in keeping a boarding house ? — A. No. 

Q. .You have to look after that ? —A. No. 

Q. Who looks after the fiii'incial part? —.\. My co-associates. 

(J. You do not look after that ? — .\. No. 

Q. You look after the patients? — A. Yes I take a special interest in the ins me 
and those who require treatment. 

Q. Will you tell me whether you ever prescribed or looked personally after fclie 
pr saner ?^A. I did. 



t 



123 

Q. Under what name was the prisoner in the Asylum ? — A. Under tlie name of 
Laroehelle. 

Q. Under wliat name does he appear in your books ? — A. That is it. 

Q. Did you know his riglit name ? — A. No, I was not present when" he entered the 
first day. 

Q. Have you j^ot the papers witli you under whicli you liekl him ? — A. I have this 
memorandum liook. 

0. I want to see tlie papers ? — A. No, I have not lirought the books. 

Q. Have you any papers showing wliat di.sease lie had ^nd under whose certificate 
he was confined ? — A. I cannot give you what I have not got. 

Q. There are papors and certificates filed 1 — A. Tliose jjapers are kept by the Prov- 
incial Secretary and I would liave to get them from him. 

Q. Where did you make that note from ?~A. From the register, taking the e.xact 

date. 

t 
Q. It is from that register only that you are able to speak of the case ?--A. Nh, it 
:is only a help to my memory so as to be exact as to date. 

Q. Among the thousand patients tliat were there at the time, have you a perfect 
r«L-iillectii)U of his symtoms .' — A. Yes, becau.se he was a special case and gave me a good 
<leal of care. , 

Q. Did you ini|uire into his former liistory ? A. No, except as to the fact of hrs 
disease. 

Q. You did not get the history of the patient ? — A. I asked .some questions as to the 
conditions of iiis character and his di.sease. 

Q. Was ther(' necessity liy reason of his violence. to have him under restraint? 
— A. Yes, sometimes he was very violent. ► 

t^. You found out what his name was ?- — A. He confes.sed to nie who he was. 

Q. That violence was after he was admitted into the Asylum ? — A. Yes. 

y. All this treatment would appear in the books, there would be a history of the 
case ! — A. Not always, it depends. It is in the medical book. . 

■Q. You have no book or copy of the book here ? — A. No. 

Q. You have brought us nothing! — A. E.vcept what I am able to tell from memory. 

IQ. You knew a long time liefore that you were going ■to be examined as a witness 
this case, you had been spoken to about it shortly after the capture of the prisoner I 
— jA. No, I was asked by telegraph. 

I Q. You were seen by the friends of the prisoner shortly after he was arrested ' 
-|a. No. 

• <^. When where you spoken to about giving evidence at the trial ? — A. Some days 
beq)re the trial came on. 

Q. Did it not strike you tliat it would be imptu'tant to have a written history of tlie 
caie, the cause of his committment, did it not strike you that that would be a matter of 
inJiortance in considering a case of this kind ? -A. No, I thought they would ask me m^ 
op^iion of the case. 

Q. That is what you tiiougiit would be satisfactory ?— A. I never thought of coming 
^'tBiU at first. 

\). At the time he was there, you attended how many cases person a 



— A. I saw tli«ymQs( 



124 



iQst iiiiiiortant cases, and took a great deal of intfrost in thoin on account 
of tlie ivsponsiliility of the treatment. 

Q. And till- others would carry out "the treatment? — A. They would consult me anti 
I would consult them. 

Q. How many supeiintendonts have got ? -A. None, co-as.sociates. I 

Q. How many patients had you under your innnediate treatment in the year 77 1 
.-t-A. I am not aide to tell you. 

■i. Q _ 100 cases ; — A. No, we liave not 100 cases of acute mania under our hands unfor- 
tunately. , j ' "*■ . 

■ Q. Htnv nriny did you liave uiuler your pei-sonal treatment ? .\. The cases of whiih 
I make a special study aKe acute mania. 

Q. How many of such cases would you hdve in a year? — \. Not many unfortu- 
nately. 

Q. How many in a yibnv'^. —A. 2o or :50 would he ahout the average of acute cases, 

Q. We will speak of '77 ; can you give us the names of those men whom yipu tnati d 
in .'77 ? — .\. 1 will j^ive you some of the names, 1 cannot tell you all. If you mention the 
names I would know about them. 

Q. The treatment of those persons is gone fiom your mind ? A. .More or less. 

Q. You see the value of written testimony here ! \. Thi'rc arc certain lases. 

<^. Did you not kiiow that this luan was Kiel ? -.\. I heard that he was and he him- 
self admitted to me that his name was Kiel. 

<J. Who jiut him in the Asylum ? A. The (Government. 

Q. On whose certificate, on what medical certificate was he put in.' — .\. I do not 
know, it is in the department of tl.ie Provincial Si«-retary. We adndt them as sent liy 
the (iovernment. 

Q. \'ou aie |)aiil hyl the (ioverinncnt .' -A. A'es. ] 

Q That is the local (ioviMUment of (jueliec ? — \. Yes, tiny see that eveiythiiijr is 
correct. Tliey have a sjxnial ])liysician for that. 

Q. You .sav the main feature of this di.sease is what ! what is the leading feature 
of this disease dj^ou say ! do you .say it is a ti.\ed idea iiicapalde of cliange ! A. That 
one thihg I may say^ 

<J. Will yon an.swer the ipiestion, do you say that the leadinj; featuiv of theiliseil.se 
is a fixed idea incapalile of change liy reasoning? — A. I <lid not succeed in changing. . . . 

Q. I ask you is thatj the leading feature of the di.sease ? — .\. That is one of the f^-a- 
tures. 

<i. Is it the leading fe.iture .' — .\. It is (ule of them, it is one of the characteristie 
features 

<i. A fi.\ed idea witlj i% special and)itiou incapalile of change hy reasoning ? — A. ¥es, 
We did not succeed in changing the idea of the patient, t 

Q. Well, that ti.xed Jidea is beyond his coutnd ! \. I wouhPnt lie ]irepared toliy 
entirely. - j 

Q If it is beyond hjis control, he is an iu.sane uian ? .\. Yes. 

Q. Is not this fixed idea beyond his control?- — .\. ^ es. 

Q If within hiscf>nl(rol, it is an indication of sanity i — .\. That he was trying to Jet 
better, lie may have ha:(l intermissions in which lie understood his condition. 



■-•0-. 



12;1 



1^. If it is suliject to uoutiol, it is not a tixed idea, that is what we have agreed upon 
us tliH lt;adiii<r characteristic, do you understand ? — A. I do not know what you areaXtf^r. 

• ^. If this idea is sutiject to control tlien tlus man is sane? — A. There may l>e inter- 
missions wlien he can control himself, hecausc then the insanity disiippears. 

<^. Aud then tliero is a lucid interval! — A. Yes. 

*i. Durin;; thf period of the insanity the idea possesses the man and it is not con- 
trollal.le ;— A. No. 



Q. Is that tin- leiulinj,' feature of the disease .' — .\. Partly, do vou kW)w of auv 
ler! • \ 

Q., I an> not an expert in in.sanity, can you jjiNe me any other leadin<j; feature of the 
ili.sease ! — .\. I have no other feature to 'Aye. 



otl 



(^. Tiiat is the only one you can dcscrilic f— A. I j,',ive you the features aiid charac- 
teristics of the disease well enou;;!). 

Q. I HIM j^oiiij; to keep you to tluit unless you want to eniav<;e upon it. I am ;;oili<i to 
liuild uiv theory upon tlciit : you can eidar;,'e it as mudi us you like now, l)Ut do not j,'o 
liack upon me afterwards .' Is there any other leailin<j; featuie of the disease .'- -.\. I have 
ijiven y<iu the jirincipal chaiacteristics of lii^ disease. 

<). I want to jf.'t the peculiar characteristic-^ of thi.-. form of mania .' .\. Tiiey liave 
illtermi^-^ions, sometimes f<ir month.-^ and sometimes for days. The lea--! contradiction 
excite:, them. 

iy Til. re is a class of healthy interinissions, .sometimes a man likes beer and sometimes 
uliiski'v. I want to tjet the characteristic that distin<;uish' him from a liealthy man, not 
lliose fli.it we ha\e in common with the in.sane / — A. We tilways aiiswer reasonaMv. liut 
when a mm comes and |>retends to know e\ervtliinL' and talks nonsense, we expect that 
to a certain extent he has lost his reason. 

(). We want to net at the leadinij characteristic, you have j;iven us one feature is 
then' only the one featuie ,' If tlieie are any other features, say so ! \. I won't nive 
you any. 

Will you stick to it .' .^. Yes 

y. Then what leading idea not suliject to cliani,'e liy reason is it that you have fixed 
upon ill the e\ ideiice yesterilay or to-day lirinjjinn you to the conclusion that he is of un- 
sound mind !--.\. It is because of .some symptoms. 

i) Tell me tile symptoms that lirinjj; you to the conclusion that this man is within 
the rule vou have laid down .* Tell me the facts that hrinir him within that rule ? .\. 
The facts are that he has always kept that diaracteri.stic. 

Q. .Answer that ipiestion ( 

Air. FlTZH.\TKICK. — This « itness has been siieajving in English fiu- some time past. 
I ■ the witness does not understand the (piestions jiroperly he should answer tlie<iue.stioivs 
French. 
.Mr. Osl.KK. — If t\u', man wants to hide himself under the Frencli. he can do so. 

i(^. Vou understand what I mean .' — A. Parlez-moi en francais. 
AIb. Osler. — It will be for the jury to say whether he is makiny: the chaiiire at liis 
•n sUiTirestion or at that of the counsel on the other si<le. 
Q. Having given a rule to test this insanity what fact is there disclosed in the evi- 
nce that leads you to .say that the prisoner comes within the rule ? — .\. That part of 
e evidence given by the clergy to day shows in a jiositive manner that the prisoner has 
inifested .symptoms that we meet in megalomania. 



126 I 

I 

prisoner within the rule which you have laid down? — A. I want to take the fact proxwl 
by the evidence 

Q. Tell me the fact upon which you rely '.' — A. The prisoner gets his tlieoi-y from 
the idea that he has a mission. • ' 

Q Do you understaud that to be tlie fixed idea not controllable by reason 1 — A. I 
ibelieve so, bsciuse reason has never so far succeeded in changing that idea tliat lie has, 

Q Is that the only reason you have for saying that the jirisoner is insajie ?- A, It 
is, and I believe it to 1)6 sufficient. 

Q Is it consistent with a man laVioring undei- an idea not controUaiile by rca.-i n, 
that he would abandon that idea for S';i.'i,000 ? * 

/ Mr. Fitzp.\trick. — I object to that ; that has not been proved. 

His Honor. — What is the ({uestion ? 

Mr. < )sler — Is it consistent with a man having an idea not controlhilile by leason 
■ that he will Siliandon that idea for S^."5.'j,000 ( Let that be a liypotlietical ([Uestion .' 

Mr FiTZPATHifK.^I object to tlie ijuestion. 

His Hoxok. — He can put hypothetical (|uestions. 

Mr. OsLtR. — My learned friend must know that the ipiestion is regular and should 
not interfere at a critical part of the examination, so as to give the witness a cue. 

Mr. Fitzp.\trick. — I did not have any such intention. M'e have the riglit to object 
and we intend to exercise that right. 

Mr Osler.: — You should not exercise it in such a way as to give the witnes(< a~cire7~ 
That is the second cue you havfe given the witness You gave a liiui cue in regard to- 
speaking in French. 

Q/ Will you answer the (|Uestion: is it consistent with the leading feature of this 
disease, an idea not controllable by reason, that he should aJiandon that idea for money / 
—A. 1 think it is possible that the prisoner niiglit want to obtain the money to attain 
the object he has in view. i 

Q. It may be consistent if he wants the money for the object he wishes to obtain ? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Do you say that that answ^er is consistent with the idea tluit he is not able to con- 
trol his actions ! — A. Yes, it gives it more strength. 

Q Wherein does that ditter from the idea of a sound mind .' — .\. It is very imjior- 
tant in this case particularly, the patient shows great ability in taking the necessary 
means to accomplish the particular mission that he believes lias been given him, he 
was reasoning fi-om a false basis, and that is a characteristic of this disease. 

Q. Do you agree with this proposition : •' An insane delusion is never the result of 

reasoning and reflection"? — A. I don't understand what you want to get at. 

■ -i '• . i' 

Q. 1 want you tQ give an answer, do you agree with that proposition, that :ia 

insane delusion is never the result of reason and reflection ?— A. I Vielieve that he makes 

false reasoning from a false principle. 

Q. Is delusion produced by reasoning and deduction? — A. It has been by hallfci- 
nation and i 

Q. That is not an answer to my cjuestion. I want to know whether a delusionjan 
insane delusion, may be the result of reasoning and deduction, or is it always the pro- 
duction of the di.sease?— A. Sometimes, not al^'ays^ometimes by false inspiration. 



Q. Sometimes by Bane inspiration ? — A. Y''es. 



r 



127 



H. You won't answer my ((uestion I — A. I have done my best. 

Q. Have you not the capacity to understand it ? — A. That may be your opinion.. 

Q. Take an inwine delusion in a man's head, can it be brought by reasoning and 
deduction, or is it the outcome of the disease ? -A. It is the consecjuence of his disea.se. 

(J. And, therefore, it has nothinj; to do with reason and deduction ?— A. I believe 
th*t when a patient is under the influence of htnlucination, he is quite lieyond control. 

Q. Von say it is tlie Krst principle of irresponsibility, whether it is the result of 
disease or wliether it is tlit^ result of rea.son, distorted reason if you will, it is only by 
(lisea.se that tiie insane delusion is prtKlueed .' A. Yes, by the dL-^turbauce of the brain 
which there is in every case. 

(I. .Vml it is by reason of it being a product of the disease that it is not controllable "t 
— .V It is a conse(|uence of it. 

Q. Wliv do vou say this prisoner during^tliis time had no knowledge of right from 
wrong .' — A. I say that the ]irisouer was under the influence of his delusion that he had 
a .special mi.ssion to fulKI. 

i^. From what facts in evidence do you say that the prisoner could not distinguish 
lietween right and wrnni,' l-* .V. They never could prove to him that that mission never 
existed. 

.Mr. Krr/.P.\TiUt'K. — It is impossible for us to accejit such a tran.slation as is now 
bi'ing given of the evidence. 

Mr. ( iiiKKNsiiiKl.lRS. -Tlu^ last two ijuestions have not been translated properlv. 

^Ir. < )si.KH. — We have done everything we (/ould to procure a translator, we did not 
want one for our |iart of the evidence, and it was for the defence to produce one in 
tendering a witness wiiose evidence had to be translated. 

.Mr. Krrzi'.KTHUK. — I say it is entirely wrong, it should be taken down in French; 

Mr. OsUKH. -It has lieen taken down in French as well as in English. 

Mr. Fnzi'.vTiiicK. -It has gone to the jury in Englisli. 

M. OsLKli. The witness can explain him.self in English but was told not to do so. 
it was not my dirticulty. 

/ Air FlTZP\TRICK. — I think that the Act of '80 provides for the use of both langua- 

His Ho\oK Mr. Justice Riciiakusos. — The court can take the best interpreter to l>e 
hid. 

.Mr. FiTZFJVTRiCK. — All right, if you say so. 

Mr. Robinson. — When they hear it improperly translated, they should say so and 
can, Ite repeated. 

I WiT.N'EES. ... It could not be proved to him that the mission did not e.xist. 
I His Honor — Is that answer correct ? 
'l A. Yes. 

I -^ir OsLER. Q. Is that the only reason why you should say the prisoner could not 

(list, inguish between right aiid wrong ? 

I His Honor. The reporter liad better read the (luestion to him and see whether it 

hasj been correctly translated. 

J"( Reporter reiuling fi-om his notes). "From the facts in evidence, do you say the 
prilioiier could not distinguish between right and wrong i— A. They never ceuld prove to. 
hiJi that that mission never existed. 



128 



His Honoh. —Is that the proper answer? — A. Witness, yes 

Mr. OsLER. — Q. Is that the only reason why you say the prisoner could not dis- 
tinguish Wetween right and wrong? —A. I gi\e lliat as one of tlie reasons. 

Q (Jive that . . . .(iive me any other reason ?— A. The reasons given hy the hi.st 
-witness. 

Q. I want you to state the facts that the witnesses spoke of, from which you came 
to your conclusion ? — .V. The facts are that he< helieved lie had a mission to fulfil in the 
NoVtli-West. 

Q. What evidence have you that that was an insane delusion ? Hecaufe lie stated he 
bad a lettf r from the bishoj) containing such an allegation 1 — A. I never heard that he 
was inspired )i\ such a letter. 

Q I) )you siiy that any man claiming to he insjiired is iii-sane so a^s not to he ahle 
to distinguish lietween right and wrong ? A. It is j>ossihle. 

Q. Is it a true proposition scieiititically ? — A. The proposition as given I >y the pa- 
tient i> not always reasonahle. 

1 (^ Might it not he evidence of fraud on the part of the man making it ? — A. Not 
'when the same idea has heen sustained at different times without reason. 

(I. When the idea is sustained from time to time it is only sustained with insanity, 
is tint th,^ answer? -\. Yes jiarticularly with that kind of delirium. 

^ Q. I) » you know the iiist^ny of Joseph Smith the .Mormon, wouUI you considfr him 
insaiif .' — .V. No, I do not know his history. 

Kl. [) > you kn')\v anything (jf Brigham Young, would you call him insane .' A. To 
mv iiiiiul he w.is more or jess insane. / 

(^. Would you call lirigliam Young's ideas of prophetic inspirations inconsistent 
with the knowle<lge of what is right and wrong ? -A. It would recpiire an examination. 
If you send him to the asylum for a few months, I will make a study of the case. 

Q. Does not the while evidence sustain the tliei>j'V that it was a skilful fraud ? -A. 
I don t think so. 1 siw thf i)iisciiier at my place, he always retained the impression that 
he had a mission, wiien he could have none and he had nothing to gain l)y it. 

({. I am asking the general nuestion whether the evidence upon which von have 
formed your ojjinion is not consistent witli a skilful fraud ? —A. It iinglit lie possihle, 
there might he such an undei-.standing, hut it is not my opinion. 

C^. It imiy he that it is consistent with a skilful fraud ? -,\. There is no evidence i 
this case that can prove that there was fraud. 

Q. Do you say the evidence is inconsistent with a skilful fraud ? — A. When I ha 
the jirisoner under my care. . . 

Q. I am asking you ahout the fact iu evidence on which you found your opinion 
-t-A. In the mental condition of the prisoner, I think he is not. . , , ? 

Q. That is not an answer at all. Can you give me an answer? — A. Put the (jueStii 
in another way. ^ ^n 

(^. If you cannot answer it in English or French, I may as well let you go, y! 
can go.. j . |ou 

Dr. Daniel Ci..\hk, sworn, examined hy Mr. Fitzpatrick. 
Q. Y'ou helong to Toronto, do you not / — A. I do^ 

(). What is your position there, Doctor? — A. A superiiitendaiit of the Toroil 
Lunatic Asylum. ■ fto 



129 



Q. Ifave you Imil any experience in tlie treatment of the insane? — A. A small expe- 
lit'LRf. 

Q. Liniit<Hl to liow many years, Doctor? — A. Between nine and ten years. 

Q. Ifas it lieen your fate to attend (K-easionally as expert in case^. of lunacy? — 
A. Yes, very often. 

*i. Have you had occasion to examine tliis prisoner here at tiie bar? — A. I examined 
liim tlnt-e times, twice yesterdaj' and once this morning. 

Q. 1)1(1 you attend at the examination of tlio other witnesses in this case ye.ster(!ay 
and to-day ?— A. I <li«l, ' ' " 

Q. From what you heard from the witnesses here in court, and aKo from tlie e.xami- 
nation whicli you have madefif llie accused, are you in a position to form any opinion as to 
tlie soundness or Ulisounchiess of liis mind ? — A. Well, assinning the fact tiiat the wit- 
nesses told the truth, 1 ha\e to assume that. . , . and assuminir also that tlie prisoner at 
the l.ai- was not a malingerer (that is Kngli^h 1 lielie\e). then of (•our>e theie i-> no other 
conclusion chat any reasiuialile man could come to. fidm my ■~tancl-point, of course, that 
that man who held these \ lews and did the^e things must certaiidy lie of insane mind. 

ij. |)o you consi<ler, I loctor, that a person suth'ring from >uch unsoundness of ndnd 
as you say that this man is sutleiiui,' from, is capable of knowing tlie nature <.f the acts 
which llicy (lo ? — A. Why, the insane umleistand, many (pf them, the nature of tjie acts 
which they do, except in dementia cases, and melancholia, and cases of mania even, they 
often know what they do, and- can tell me what thev ilid, tell all aliout it afterwards. 



iiliout a man not kw 



what he is doing, simjily liecause he 



N, 



It is all nonsense to talk 
is insane. - 

IJ. Do you think that man was, in the circumstances iletailed liy the ditlerent wit- 
nesses, in a position to lie alile to say or lie altle to judye of what he was doiiii.'. as either 
wrong or contrary to law .'A. Well, that is one of the legal metaphysical distinctions 
in reiiard to liLilit and wion;.', and it is a dangerous one. s'imply liecause it co\;ers only 
part iif the tiiith, I could convince any lawyer if they will come to Toronto Asylum, 
•fn half an hour, that dozens in that institution know liulit and wi-oiig, lioth in abstract 
(ind in comrete, and vit are undoulitedly insane. The ili.stiiietion of right and wj-ong 
i-o\irs part of the/^rutfN It covers the lanrest part of the truth, hut the large minority 
lif insane do kni/v right from wrong, it is one of these metaphysical suhtilities that 

o .'—A. Well the law Vers find it in 



practical men in asylums know to lie false. 



Q. There are some 
he liook>frand thev tak( 



iwyers who think it false als 

it for granted it must he correct. 

Q. Do you consider from the knowledge which you have of this individual, that at 

the time the events detailed by the witnesses liere took place, that is to say. in march, 

pril and mav last, that he was laboring under such a defect of reason from disease of 

hi- minil, that he did not know that what he was doing was wrong f — A. I thin^^he did 

now. I think he was ipiite capable of distinguishing right from wrong. 

(^. t^uotethe particiilar acts,l)oetor ,' — A. Well, to ipiote the particular act»,l )iresuuie, 
i ' yoii were to aSk him to detine what i« right and wiiat is wrong, he could possibly give 
ou a j^ood fletii,ition, as far as I could judge from my examination of him. 

t J. Was he in a position to be able to say at tliat time, and to act at that time as an or- 
dinaiy sane man would have done .' -A. Assuming the evidence given by the witnesses, 
hit- (lid not act as a sane man would have done, for this reason, that no sane man would 
lijive imagine<l that he could come into the Saskatchewan, and that he could gather 
ijound him such a force as would enable him to become monarch of this country. That 
itj could be divided up into seven divisions, giving each to a different nationality. He was 
ijot an ignorant man. He was not like an Indian wlio never read a newspaper, and 
new nothing of the country around him. He had travelled, he had been in Ottawa, he 

9 



]-'w 



.f^ 



l»a(l been in the United States, and lie knew nil about tlie power of Britain and tlie 
Dominion. And for him to imagine that he uould oonie here and raise a few Half- 
breeds in the Sasketchewan and keep up a suijces.sful warfare, and divide the country 
into seven divisions and with ditterent nationalities, was certainly not a thing that a 
nian,'with an ordinary understanding, would ever think he fould succeed in. 

Q. So that you think at that time he was certainly insane and of unsound mind ?-^ 
A. AssumingTtfe stateuie|nt made... I think so. _ f 

;Q. To be true.?-- A. Yes. " ' ' 

<~Q. • You take into consideration of course in this opiiuon, all the evidence giviMi as 
■ well by the doctors as by the other witnesses? — A. Yes, 1 assume of course as J said 
Ijefore that not only the evidence given is correct, Jjut tliat he was nut a deceiver. J migiit 
say if the court will allow nie, that when I coine to cases of this kni4_L;im not siib- 
j)<i'-nie<l for one side more than another, I am here only subpa-na-d to give a sortLof 
medical opiiiion, and therefore I stand in that capacity. 

-Mr. Justice Richardson. That is well understood, Dr Clarke. 



]5y Mr. Oslek. ' r^ 

Q. Tiieii, Doctor, he would kjiow the natiin- and quality of the act that lie was com- 
mitting ? —A. f{e would know the nature and (lUality of the act he was conniiitting, 
subject to his delusions, assuming them to be such. 

Q. He would know the nature anil cpiality of tlie act he was connnittiim and he 
■would know if it was wiong ?- A. ]f it was wrong based upon Ills delusion, yes. 

Q. And all tlie facts are (juite comjiatible with a skilful shamiiiing by the malinger' 
ing? — A. Y^es, I think so, I think that no one, at least I say for myself of course, that in 
a cursory exandnation of a man of this kind who has a good deal of cunning, w InJ is 
educated, that it is imi)<>ssible for any man to state on three examinatioi*i>vhether he is a 
deceiver or not. I reijuire to Jiave that man under my supervision for month.s, to watch 
him daj^- by day before I could say whether he is a sham or not. 

Q. Months under your supervision to say whether he is a sham or not / — A. Y'es. 

<^. And really the only grounds upon which you would form an ojiinion as toliis 
insanity is tiie commission of the crime? — A. No, not the cominission of the crime. J forjn 
an opinion of iiis insanity from the statements made by the witnesses, both anterior to 
the crime and since that time. Y 

Q. But you told the( court and jury just now that wliat struck you wjls the insaiije 
idea of seeking to take possession of the country and divide it into j)ro\ inces ?— A. Yds 
that is one idea. 

Q. That gave you the greatest idea of his in.sanity? — A. < )ne, and then tlie oth^-r 

' oiie was he was a Roman Catholic and among Roman Catholic peojile, among peojJle 

attached to their priests, and he went among that people endeavouring to conciliate thelii 

as he supposed in order to get them educated up in any schemes he had in \ iew. And 

yet he goes~lo work and says at once, " I want to dei)Ose the Pope ". j 

Q But did you notice^also this, that he gets the people to follow him ? — A. Soiiie 
of them do • I ' f 



Q. Yes, but he got the peoj: 
him on another basis. n 



iji^'eHo f 



follow him with their guns 1- 



t 



A. They followed 

Q. Tliey elected him Prophet ? — A.l-Yes, and he told me this morning he was a ] 'ro~ 
phet and he knew. the jury would acquit hiira because he knew what was coming bef ire- 
hand. 

Q. Then, don't you think that this is perfectly consistent' with sucli leading spi 
as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young 1 — A. No, it is not. 



its 



131 

y. \ot consistent ? — A. No, and I will tell you the i«-ason whv. 

Q. \V»'ll I don't want the reason beyond your opinion ? A Well, it is not con- 
sistent. 

Q. It is not consistent however with fraud ! — A. Consistent with fraud ! Yes, 

anythini; is consistent with fraud'that is not discovered. 

Q. You cannot say that it is not fraud ? — A. Xo 1 cannot 

Q. And there is nothing here to show you in the state of his intellect that he was 
not alili! to distinguish between right and wrong and know the (|Uality of the act which 
he'was connuitting ' A. Xo, 1 say that I think that he knows what right is from wrong 
and know the ijuality of tile act he was connnitting, subject to liis (hlusious, but uiin(l 
you, 1 want to add to that, that many of the insane know right from wrong. 

. (,). And you know I)r. \ery well, that there is a class of insanity that is held re.s- 
jionsilile to the law ,' -A. You know 1 am not allowed tosav anvtiiing about resiMHisibilit v 
legally. . ", ' 

<^. You know that there is conflict between the courts and the doctors '. — A. I 
know there is. 

Q. And you know that the <loct'ors have an idea that all mental diseases sh<iuld be 
iiciiuilted of criuH- ? -A. Xo they dont all. Kor instance Maudsley ha-, written a small 
book on the resiionsil>ilities of tlie insane. He is a most Jiromiuent man in Knulaud 

Q. He brings' in, ami the doctors have a tendency to bring in as irresponsible a verv 
much larger class than the courts and lawyers ? — A. 1 think not, 1 thinV of late yeare 
such men as .Maudsley, lluchnell and Schucli, itc, and some of the.se recent invest igaton> 
lean to the idea that in.sanity jifr »- does not absolve from resjionsibilitv. vou have to 
take t«ch ca.se on its own merits. 

(). There is a large class of insane i)eojile or cranks ? — A Xo, you cannot say, 
or cranks, becaus'' a cr ink is a ditlereut man altogether. A crunk is a man who is nor- 
mally a peculiar inan from his birth upwards. An insane nwm is a man that has lie- 
come .so out of usual conduct, fron\ disease. 

(^ I did not bracket them together, I put tliem in the alternativ e ? — A. You said 
"or cranks," I thought you meant l.flnatic equal crank. 

(i I put them as coming to each other's bonier line ? — A. 1 tliought vou had 
au eijuation. 

(^. It is .so that a large nundier, then I should say, of insane persons ought to Ik- res- 
ponsible to the law ! — A. There are some that are. 

(^». For they know right from wrong and know the nature and quality of the act 
they perform ] — A. When I speak about responsability it is said the court should decide. 

Q. That is when you are e.xamined in chief but on cross-examination we have a 
little more liberty ? — A. ] see. 

<J. You have been ivn expert witness in criminal cases ? — A. Yes. 

<^. How fre(|uently ? — A. Well I don't know, j^erhaps 9 of 10 times, perhaiis mtire. 
I don't reniendier exactly the number. 



Re-exaniiiied by .Mk. KiTZP.\TRiCK. 

(^». You said a monuMit ago that the conduct of this man might be consistent with 
the conduct for instance of such men as Smith and Young, and you were alniut to make 
distinction between tiie two and you were stopped ? — A. (>hl Smith and Young were reli- 
gious iyid en?housiasts, they carriwl out consistently their system. If you read Urighani 
Young's bible or if you read ilahomet's Koran if you like, oi- if you read any of those 
books issued by those men who are religious enthousiasts you will find that consistently 



V/ 



132 



licieiit consistency tlnougliout to show you tlmt these men weie sound in mind 
nature provided them with sound mind. That is the ditt'erence. 



with common sense tliey haye tact and disc-nation to cany on successfully till the end of. 
their lives without intermission, a successful crusade of this kind, and their hooks 
contain suHic 
as much as : 

Q. Do you lind anything of that kind in the present case ?— V. No, I don't think 
he would make a very good.lJrighani Young, or El Mahdi. 

Q. You say that he is quite capable of distinguishing rigjjit f rom wrong suliject to his 
delusions ? — A. [Subject his particular delusion, yes. 

ilH. Lemieux. — This closes our defence, your Honor. 

Mr. Robissos. — We liave some witnesses in rebuttal. 



De. JameN'S WALLAfK, sworn, examined byMr Osier. ' 

Q. Dr. What is youl" position ? — A. I am medical superintendent of the asylum for 
the insane at Hamilton, Oiitaiio. 

Q. An institution having how many patients on the average ? — A. Sonicwliere over 
600. 

Q. How long have you been making a branch, a specialty of the insane, of the study 
of tlie insane ! — A. 1 have been in charge of that asylum nearly 9 years, but I have beea 
studying insanity for a few years more than that. 

Q. For more than 9 y^ars ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Aiid you see every variety of it, I supjiose 1 — A. .Ml shades and \ arieties. 

Q. Now, did you devote yourself to the medical braul-h of it ? — A. Kntirdy. 

Q. You have nothing to do with keeping the hotel or boarding house ?- -.\. Well, I 
have the general superintendence of the house, but i devote nearly all my time to tin* 
medical department of the asylum. 

.(^. Jiave you been listeiiing to the evidence in this case ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you examinqtl or had- an opportunity of seeing the prisoner? A. J saw 
him'for about half-an houri that is alone, not in couit. 

Q. And you have been heie during tlie ? — A. During the sitting of the 

court. 

Q. Have you formed an ojiinion of his mental responsibility, of his sanity or 
insanity ? — A. I liave, so far as my time and opportunities enabled me to do so. 

Q. What is your opinion? — ,A. I have not discovered any insanity al>out him, no 
indication of insanity. 

Q. What would you say then in view of the evidence and your examination ; is he of 
sound mind or is he.not?^A. 1 think he is of sound mind ' 

Q. And capable of distinguishing right from wrong? — A. I think so. 

■ Q. And know the nature and ijuality of any act which he would conniiit?^A. Very 
acutely. - 

Cross-examined by Mb. Bitzpatrick. 

Q. You have no doubt whatever in your mind, from the examination you have ma 
of this man during half an hour and from the evidence which you heard here, thai he 
of perfectly sound mind ? — A. Well, I should qualify, that is I should qualify U)y answer i 
that question. I have had only a lipiited examination of him and in any case of obscarJ 



133 • ' 

iiif nlul (list-ase, it sometimes takes a very long time l)efore one can make up their mind, but 
t'loiii » hat I liax e seen of liim I say that I liave discovered no symptoms of iusanity. 

Q. -So tliat wliat you now say, Doctor, is purely and simply this, not that he is not 
insane, but that you liave not been able to discover any symptoms of iusanitv ? — A. That 
is what I say, I say tliat I have not discovered it. It would be presumption for me to 
say tiuit he is not insane from the opportunities that I have had, but at the same time 
my opinion is pretty fairly tixed in my mind, that he is not insane. 

Q. You are aware that a <,'reat many cases e.xist in which men are found to he 
perfectly insane, without its beinj; posMiliie todiscover any trace of iiisanity? — A. Oh! sir, 
1 liavc liad ])atii-nts in my Asjlum for weeks sometimes before I found anv svmptoms of 
insanity. 

Q. You are aware also, are you not, that there have been cases in England in which 
men were examined for a wliole day and cross-examined by such men as Erskine for 
instance, perfectly insane, and durintr thi^wholeday it was impossible for Erskine tii discover 
that thi^ man was insane ? — .\. Yes, I dare say such cases may exist, 1 am ijuite 
certain such cases ha\ e existed. 

Q. Y'ou are ipiite certain such cases are in existence? — A. Y^es. 

Q ThcretVue you are obliged to say that all that yf>u have discovered in this case or 
all that you are now in a position to say is that you liave not discovered any traces of 

;' isanity ] — A. That is all my conscience will allow to say. 
Q. Y^ou have lieard of that parti(nilar form of mental disea.se known as niaualomania 
n.bably .'— A. ^ es. 

l^. Would yi>u tell me what are the symptoms which are the characteristic of this 
disease ? -A. That is a simiilc i-omplication. That is a term which is scarcelr f\er usetl 
.and I tliink it is only used by one writer, I don't remember any other who uses it in 
^ the Kiii^lish langua,i;e and he simply introduces it and says. ... 

() l>ut iiiic writer uses that name? — A. Only one that I can think of at tiu- present 
time in the V dish lanicuagc and he .says that it is a condition in which the jiatieiit has 
I'.elusions, yra. iose di;lusion.s, delusions of greatness and most commonly complicated 
1*^ vith that form (>' insanity called par-ilytic insanity or gentle paralysis. 

c (^1 You are aware that this particular form of insanity is characterised anion;; other 

things bv extreme irritaliility on tlie part of the patient ? — A. Not magalomania. maga- 
Icihiaiiia simply applies to grandiose ideas. It can have no other detinition than that, 
and these detinitions allow me to explain, are delusions,' they are delusions such as a 
jier.son holding and believing himself to be a king fir possessed of imiu^ise wealth, and 
that all the world is at his feet. ' These are the kind of delusions thaf~^re meant by 
magalomania as I understand them, and it has not any other meaning that I know of. 

Q. The delusions are that he is rich ! — A. Y'es. 

i). And powerful ? — A. Y'es. 

(J. A great general ] — A. Y'es. 

(J. .V great minister? — A. He may be a great anything, and everything. 

(,» A great projihet ? — A. Y''es. 

(} Or dixiiielv inspired, or that he is a poet or a musician, in fact that he is an 
egotist and selli.-.li man? — A. Yes. 

»J l!ut you are cpiite sure that thtrTdiaracleristic of irritability i* not one of the 
ciiaracteristics of this malady ? — A. It is not a malady, it is merely a symptom. 

ij. That is a form of mental disease! — A. It is not a uieutal disease, it is ouly a^ 
svmpiom of mental disease. 



i:u 



Q Vou have heard of a Wook written and published l>y J^agoust, a Fiencli writer? 
. — A. 1 have heard of it but ] have never read it. 

Q. He is an author of repute, is lie not ? — A-. I think so, but I don't read much 
Freneli. 

Q. Would you allow ine to read to you what this author says. Talkiiif,' of niafjalo- 
' mania, lie says : "AVliat chamc-terises tiiis particular form of mental alienation is exag- 
geration of the sentiment of jier.sonality " ; expansive j«issions, he says, is one of the 
coii.se<iuences of it. He says, niononiaiiiacs aie hap])y, .satisfied with themselves, and 
si)eak without a limit of their own personality. Now here is tlie part 1 s|)eak to you 
about, the individual issusce|)tible, iriitabie, he is seizeil with sudden fuiy when he is at 
anytime oppo-sed in his idea...? — A. Well isn't that speakini;- of j^entle paralysis, the 
insanity of gentle paralysis. 

'Q. It is luider the head of inagaloniaiiia, with tlie plates showing the dift'erent elia- 
i"acters ? — A. I understand ' that, but there are a va.stly large number ofnianias, jmer- 
peroniania and all that sort of thing. 

Q. Would you kcej) to inagaloniaiiia, that is what we now refer to, that is what the 
book refers to and what ] refer to ?- A. I stated that magalomania was one of the com- 
plications or .syiiii)toms of jiaialytic insanity, and that that you reail, of course is one of 
' the accompaniments of the jiaralytic insanity too, irritability and all that you stated, they 
are always found in connection with each other. 

Q. And you now say that irritabilit)' is one of the characteristics of magalomania ? 
— A. No, I don t ; iiiagaloniania, as far as I understand it, is one of the cumplications qtf 
the paralytic insanity and the irritability is also another symptom of jiaraJytic insaiiit}'\ 

Q. We will just narrow the facts down to exactly what we have in evidence, that 
extreme iiritaliility is one of the characteristics of this magalomania ?- A. Siivply . . . . 

.Q. And the bf)oks sIkiw.s, that I now hold in my hand, that it is rme of the charac- 
.terisfics ? — .^. I think we (|lo not undeistand each other. 

. Q. ] aiii waiting for ijight ? — A. I have stated that magalomania is a sym)itom 
, commonly found in ])aralytii- in.sanity, irritiibility and those (it her symiitoms are ali: 
symptOkis found in the same disease. w 

Q. So that now, irritability being one of the eliaraeteristics of paralytic insaiiit)' and 
magalomania being one of the branches of paralytic insanity, you now say irritability is 
one of the characteristics of magalomania ? — A. Oh I IJut we lind magalomania in other 
diseases and we tind magalomania is simply mania. 

Q. But ill magalomania iiritaliility is laid down by the book as one of "the charac- 
teristics at all events ? — Al Yes. 

Q. Wo that now, Doctor, you are of opinion that the idea of grandeur and of power is 
not to be fouml anywhere, except in cases of paialytic imjiiTfity ? — A <)! yes, we hnd it 
in simple mania. We lind it in sim])le mania, butUu^e are tixed delusions and jiersous 
wlio liolfl them say tiicy believe themselves foToK kings or ijueens, or great leaders, 
or wealthy people. They may lie great in any Hiipg, and great in ever.y thing and they 
actually believe this and they act upon their ^lelief, constantly act upon their belief. 

Q. Did I undei-stand you to say, Doctor, that the idea of grandeur is exclusively a 
symptom of paralytic insanity, that that is not to l^emet in other cases ? — A. No, I have 
just stated now that you will tind delusions. i, ^ 

Q. Is it not a fact that in cases of magalomania one of tlie characteristics of maga- 
lomania, one of the very essential characteristics of |nagalomaiiia istliat the individual wlio 
suffers from that particular form of meutiil disease is able in a very large measure to hide 
the diseitse from any person who endeavours to tind it out? — A. Well, insane persons are 
able as I said before to conceal their delusions,, sometimes for a length of time, but a per- 



f 



^- 



i 



135 



soil surtieriiig from inagaloinania does not attempt to do it, lie is too proud to expose his 
delusions 

Q. So tliat one of the cliaracteristics of it is pride ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is there a case in which a man, for instance, would lie under the insane delu- 
sion that lie was destined to till a j^reat mission, that he was in a jiosition to take posses- 
sion of a jrreat country such as this one is, would not that man lie iji a [Kisition to take 
sueli means as woultl lie necessary to arrive at his ends and to take thuse means with a 
f^reat amimnt of shrewdness and precaution i — A. That is ([uite inconsistent with mv idea 
iif ni;i.i;Mliiiiiani:(. As 1 said liefore, my idea of majjalimiauia is, as defined liv Cl(aKton, for 
instaiiie, that that man is already in possession of all these things and he does not want 
any more. ...^ 

(^> So that your i(lea is l)r that a man that is sutt'eriiii; from this particular disease 
is not in position and it is utterly impossilile for him to take any steps to arrive at the 
conclusion whidi he pretends he ought to arrive at ? — A. O yes I (^ I he does not require 
any plans at all, every thing Hows into him, he is the greatest man in the world and 
every thing is suliservient to him, wealth comes to him he (loes not want and he can 
commund evt-ry liody and they will oliey him. 

<^). So that he does not make any calculations at all and does nut adopt any means 
at all to arrive at his ends ? — A. Not at all. 

t^. It is one of the characteristics of the malady that he is inialde to do that .' — A. 
Not unalile, liecause he does not have todo it, he is so .self-possessed and so self-contented. 

/ i). Now I>r, will you just read this little hook airaiii on that suhject, (it is so miu-h 
tin- more d.myerous that he still retains the necessary faculty to lie ahle to make calcula- 
tjiAns that are necessary to arri\e at his ends ,' ) — A, Hut is that speaking of maualoma- 

T' \ .. 

., (}. I nder tile chajiter and titii^ '• .Magalomanja • — .\. \\ ell, would you allow to 
' ijiuite from (,'louston, he is speaking of niental dcpre>jsion and lie says there are few cases 
' of depressed feeling with exalted intellectual condition. Many persons exaggerate their 
L former notions of wealth and position liy way of contrast with their present niiserv. 
I had a \vomaii in excited melancholy groaning all the time and then considered herself, 
a (|iiecn and another a king, and of immense wealth. Some cases are of the nature 
fif what the French call magaloniania, that is, expansive grandiose exalted state of mind, 
whicu as a mental symptom, is liest seen in gentle paralysis coupled with ideas of perse- 
cution, and with depressed feelings especially at times. 

^i. Do you think there is anything in what you have read there that is inconsistent 
with what I have read to you, that contradicts that ? — A Well, there is •nothing that 
contradicts it, lait 1 .say that magalomania is 

tj. That is sim|ily an interpretation of what this liook has said here ! — A. Well, we 
are not mmv far apart ; we ai-e only apart this far, that you wish to contend for magalo- 
niania as a disease, while I contend that it is only a symptom. 

(^l. We are not talking ahout symptfims of diseases at all. 1 ask you. was that one' 
of the svm|itoMis of magaioimnia and you said it did not exist in a case, and the l.ook 
says that it does i A. You are not doing me justice. 

(y I don't mean to do you an injustice, 1 tlon't mean to adopt any liullyiniC 
proces.s, it is not my haliit, and I tlon t do it. I don't luetend to set my knowK'ilue against 
yours in a matter of this kimj, you are free to explain it. This magaloniania was called 
formerlv intellectual monomania, was it not? — A. Yes it is a monomania. 

(}. It came under that general class of cases formerly ? — A. Y'es. 

t^. Now, one of the symptoms of that malady — you have heard of a hook written 
hy Ducelle ] —A. No, I never heard of that. 







Q. You don't know It- araiiil ntir^-ffhrWii- French iiutlioi' ? — A. Xo, I don't know 
■ the liook. , 

<^ You iie\er liearil of ii Ijookof tlnit kind; at al] fvfiit.s, 1 rannot Jiut tlie 
autlioiitv i]i fvi<ltMK('. as you don't kn'ow it. l)Ut I nii.aht ask you, for instance, wlietlier 
or not in that jiirticuhir form of disease wliich I liave sjioken to you aliout, tliat is, 
intellectual njon.oniania, tlint insane |persons liplieve they are in constant intercourse \\ itli 
<Jod. and they helieve then»selvi-s to lie insjiired, and lielieve tlienisidves to lie jirojihets, 
and their hallucinations art^such that tliey sU]>]iose tiiey aie in i-onstant intercoi'irse with 
u Suj)renie ISeiiiin ? — A. Yi' 1 have known patients of tlmt kind. 

*i \l IV ■ you ever he.ird of (<iivin;r the nanit'"of anotlier Krencii auijior) ? — A. 

1 <loii t want t 1 ileal- of an\| Fremli authors, I never read them. 

*/ You never got that far >. — A No. 

<^ Persons siirt'eriiiy; from delusions of grandeur ajv perfectly harmless as a rule, 
are they not ^ —A. Xo, ».s if rule, they are not, not always, they sometimes are and some- 
times, they iire not. | 

*i In crisesliii w)iich tliey wouhl lie hiuiiile.ss, would you ]put two of these jieople in 
tlie .same ward?- A. I n«ver ]nit two to^etiier anywhere, I ne\ er jmt two lunatics 
togetiier .iiivnheiv.' Tliey are alway.s'kept either one, or more than two. 

<^. Would you |iut mole than two together .'- A. Y'es. 

<^. -Without any imjiro|)iiety whatexer .' — A. Yes,-4)ur luiildin;.'s are put u|i witli'a 
view to that 

>i. I don t know if yoij uiideistand my i|Ue.stion. I suppose se\eral persons sufl'eriiig 



fniiii ilie >jiiiie.,,i\\o kini;s, 
tOitether in tli.e .-.ame waril 

<i You would not see 
i.j j)nttiiii,' them together. 1 think not. 

iJv .Mli. I ISl.l.l! 



md a (jueen-or two (|Uei'n.s you would put all tlie.se jiersons 
A. They niiuht be and they niijiht not 

any olijection to that .' — A.I There wouhl he no iniproprief^' 



<^.' iSo that jwheii a pel 
>Slie usually <iiei| a. ijueen. 

<i. In hii?r <)\vn idea : 

</. And sli^ is a ijueet 



] 

of the disease fixed and constant .'I 



<^. Where the disease (^.\i^ts, is the idea the lesult ( 
V It i> a result of the disease. 

<^ IJut is it fixed or intermittent '. — A. In those ca.ses they are ti.xed. 

.son has taken lierself for a (jueen, .slie remains a (jueeii ? — A. 



<i N'ot ijonietinies a ijUeeii and sometimes otherwise .' — A. Xo. 



^A. I'es. 
to i-vel-v hodv to whom she talks .' — .\. Yes. 



Dk. .JiKK.s swurn, examined Iwy Mt. Kohi 



Q. You ariS :it present 
I am the senior sur^teoii of 



the meiiical otlicer attached to the mounted jiolice force ? — A. 
the mounted police. 

<^. An.l hS»- lon« hav? you!)een in medical practice ? — .\. Tliirty-H\e years. 

your attention to insanity at all siiecially, or not ? — -A,. Never 
specially, there are cas.-s ol' coiM-se wliich occasionally will come under theaiotice of every 
y general practitionei-. lait ad a special .study I have never done so. 

<^. Kvery meilic-al practitionei-. I suppose, has his attention more or less directed to 
it ! — .\. < (ci-asii>ii illy I have lieen called upon to certitiy in cases of insanity. 



ll 



137 

Q. You aifs also .sur;;eoii to the jail here 1 aiii told i — A. At i>r»-seiit until a jail has 
been erected ill the North- West Territories, the j,'iiui-(l room at head ijuarters at Ke;,'iiia 
constitutes the jail. 

Q. In that ca|iacity insane persons wnuld iia:>s under vuur haniK, anv jierson sup 
posed to lie insane ? — A. Yes, I reineinlpfr duiiiij.' the last tew years aMiundn'r ot iiersons 
of unsound mind have l>eeii sent there as a place ot' continement. 

Q. And in this way tliey have come under your oKservatioii .' .\. Thev lia\e come 
under my oliservation tor the time. 

Q. You know the jjrisoner, I lielie\f.' — A. Yes. . . 

Q. How li)iij{ haxe you known him .' —A. 1 don't leiiicuili. r the exact date he was 
liroil;,'iit to l{e^'illa, hut [ tliiiik it must have lieen Ketweeii tlie L'Uth ami I'lth of May. 

Q. lint whatever it was, lietweeu tile L'Otli aiid "Jtth .' .\. .\lJout that time, lam 
not sure. 

(}. Since that time how often have you seen liijn .0— .\. I haxcseen him almost 
every day. There have heen (Uie or two or |>erhaps three (lays that I ha\e missed seinir 
him. o« lug to pressure of other hu^incNV. uther work at that time. Km 1 have seen him 
uniforndy every day. - < 

(^. As a rule. y(ju have si-en him eveiv d iv. altliouirh Vou have missed two ur three 



or 



J(^. As a rule. y(ju have si-en liim eveiv d ly. 
our ilays duriiiL; that time .' — A. \ I's. 



Q Tiicn you had an opportunity. I suppose, of olisciviui; his iii.utal condition? — 
A .1 would speak to him on every occasioi*! in passini; him, ami he has generally acipiainted 
luJ witli what he conceived to lie his wants and his nci'i'ssities. And I wouhl examine 
into the condition of iiis physical and general -health, and ascertain lio>v his xliet was 
aji-eeing with him and things of tliat kind, such as come under my special duty. .Vnd 
oc|-asionally he would speak to me <in other matters, occasionally lie wnuld delav mi' ami 
sjBeak to me on other suhjects. 

*(,). ThiMi have you formed an opinion as to hi, mental --titi- .' 1 am >peaking now of 
jis insanity, sanity or insanity .' — .V 1 have never .seen' anything durin- my intercourse 
• ith -Miv lliel, to leave an impression on my mind that he was insane. 

r Q. Then as 1 undei-stand, you lielievj- liim to I'l. sauc .' .V. I Kelievc him to he sane, 
I far as mv knowle:l;;e of such matter goes. I have seen notjiiiii; to iiidui-eme to lielieve 



lervvise 



(j. 1 suppo.se you have had your attention dirccti-l to that part of his character more 
ir less, I nieui to his moiitai condition, more oi- le,, .' .V .Vo. I have never seen auy- 
thiiiLC to make me .piestion his mental c(indilion. and tlu lefurc I have never led the con- 
sation under any iii<iimstances to draw oii.t ai,y p.i,-iMc iii.-^auc notion. I have never 
maiie any eli'ort to do so, liecause my diKy vva^ otherwiM-. 

i). What I nie.in is. l)octor. you have iieard. I sU|ipo.-e. from time to time, rumors 
hat there was an as.vrtion of the unsoundness of his mind .'-A. I have heard rumored 
hat he had iieen formerly insane, and that he had lieen contined. I think, in the lieauport 
syium, iiiul I liave lieard it iil.so rumored tiiat it was the intention to luing forward the 
] lea of insanity on tiie present occasion in his defence, that is tiie general rumor. 

(^ Therefore, [ suppose you have had this thinir in your mind, that is all : that jiart 
' f his condition in your mind in speaking to. him .' That is all that I mean .' — A \e-. Ihavu 
Ivvays watclied liim vei-y caicful'y. sous to notice if |iossilile any appc:ii;tnce of uiisouiul- 
e.ss of mind, and if 1 had noticed it. I would h ivc placed him under special treatment as 
ar as my knowledge eiialiled me to do or have :idv iscd further freatmeiit for him. as I 
ave doiie in other cases. 

^ross-exainined liy Mr. Fitzp.^thick. 

(You said, Doctor, tiiat you had not mule any endeavour to ascerttiu. during the 



l' 



intercou*'se that you had witli ^Ir. Riei, wlietlier or not he suti'ered from any |>nrticuliir 
lueiital disease? Did you notice any form of insanity, or any mental disease, unsoundness 
of mind '. - -A. I never specially examine<l him as a lunatic, 1 never made a special examin- 
ation of liim as a lunatic. 

Q. You never made any special endeavour to discover wliether or not he was suffering; 
from any j)aiticHlar form of mental disease? — A. Never any s])ecial endeavour, anything 
^iH-yond ordinary conversation of the day. 

Q. Is it not a fact there are ditierent forms of insanity which ai-e not iliscoveral>le 
except after consideraMe (i-ndeavours has heen made to discover them .'—-A. \ es, it is so, 
un<iuestioni|^)lv. that you may converse with the man continually and nf)t lie aware of his 
insanity until you t<^ucli iucidentally, or some other person touches accidentally ujpon tin?' 
point ujion whicli he is insane. 

Q. Had you heea informed at any time of the particular mental disease fronr wliich 
Mr. Riel was sujiposed toha\e U-en suftering? — A. I don't think lever knew as much 
of it iis I havr learned here. 

Q. So that you never made any endeavour to...? — A. I nevei- did, that is, I ni'ver 
spoke to him s)iecially with re^'ard to what he lielieved to he his mission, knowing that 
many v.ery saile men might he so and yet a man nnght he perfectly ssiue. 

(}. So tliat you have no doulit at all. Doctor, from the evidence that you heard here 
given liy the dili'eicnt witnesses who were examined, the conduct of .Mr. Kiel is |»-rfectly 
cOmpatil)le witii a perfectly sound mind .' — A. Well, I regiet to say that my hearing.' is 
rather imperfect in tlie court r(jom and that 1 have not lieenalile to hear as well as I 
' could vvi.sh the translations that were made of the examinations in Kreinli, hut, .so fai| as 
my understanding has gone of the evidence which has heen given, I have heard nothhig 
that wcjuld satisty me that he was of unsound mind, 1 have heard nothing that niislit 
not he accounted for hy other cau.ses, that, for instance, of fraud or deception. A iifan 
might really lielievf that he had a mission as many great men have helieved, or he might 
only jireteiid for a purpose that he had that hclief. ' 

<^. A man inight also lal>or under the insane delusion that he had a mission? — .\l 
He might al.M) lahor under the insane delusion ; hut the fact of his lahoring under t!iii| 
insane delusion, woulrl not necessarily imply that- he was otherwise in.sane or inconiptjtei I 
either to perform husiness in a successful nnmner or to he responsihle for his acti'oii f. 
That would U' my own judgement. ' ^ ' 

Q. But quimd the jiarticu,lar delusion. . .in so far as the particular delusion undc 
which he is suH'ering is coiicernefl, he would he still respr)nsihle in your opinion. Doctor, sup, 
posing for instance that a man lahored under the ilelusion that his neiithhor was a savag^ 
dog, and was endeavouriiig to destroy him and hite him, and that lie killed his neighhor, 
he might he perfectly .sane in other i-espects ? — .\. You misunderstand me, if you think J 
entertain that opinion. . i 

Q. That is not the opinion you entertain ? — .\. Certainly not. | 

Q. So that if a man is lahoring under an insane delusion, the acts which he dotjs 
while he is under that in.sane delusior., i/tiodd the particidar delusion, he his not respoi - 
sihle for ! — .V. If a man is clearly ... .if it can he proved that a man is acting under a i 
insane delusion, then any act I should consider which he performed under the delusion, 
any act having special relation to his delusion, I should consider that he was not perso i 
naly responsihle for, if it could he shown clearly that that delusion was an insane on l>, 
and that it was not rather a feigned one for a purpose. 

Q. So that if it can lie proven that a man is lal)Ouring under an insane delusion, 
that he was in cfjuimuuication with the Holy (iho.st and was acting under the direct inis- 
piration of (iod, and he was hound to do a certain act, and he did it, would lie be respo i- 
sihle for that^ict t — A.. Views on suhject of that kind are so different even among tliqUe 
who are confessedly sane, that it is hardly one on which I could liase an opinion. Thoye 



139 

are men wlio ha\e licld \erv reniarkalile \ie\\s with respect to religion and wlio have 
always been dechued to Ije itisane until they j^atliered together great numbers of 
followers and liecame leliders of a new sect, then they become great (iro[>hets and 
great men. It is extrentHiy ditiicult to tell how tar a delusion of that kind may begin 
as a direct attemjit at fraud and may at last so take possession of a man s mind that he 
nmy believe himself divinely inspired 1 think that cases of that kind could be pro- 
duced and it would depend very much ui>on the mental condition of a man whether he 
wiis resjionsiblf f If it could be shown that he was clearly insane, he is clearly irrespon- 
silile on that point. Tiiat would be my own view. 

t^. So that if it can be clearly shown that he was laboring under a delusion, that 
he was divinely inspired, directly from (Jod, you think he would not be resposible for 
his actions ' — A. Responsible for what ! 

Q. Kesponsible for his actions in connection with the delusion of course .' — A. 
"A'hat actions would they be i Such actions as what ? 

Q. Such actions as he might do for flie purjiose of carrying out his insane delusion .' 
— .\. Well, take ilahoinet for instance.' That was exactly Mahomet's belief ; he believed 
and few belie\ed with him even of his own people that he was divinely inspired, but he 
acted on his belief and he carried his whole belief with hiuK He belieij^d and he carried 
it out at the pf>int of the sword ami with the whole worlil, and he convinced the )'eople 
of w hat, if he had failed, w(juld have been simplv regarded as a delusion in his own mind. 

Q. So that you think the conduct of Mr. Kiel perfectly compatible with theconduct 
for instance of a man like ifahomet, or a man like Smith oi- a nian like Young ?- -A. Xo. 

I don't regard .... so far as I understand tliem, Mr. Kiels views in that 11;;^. 31v 
opiiliion is rather in regard to Mr. Kiel, if you will allow me to say it, as far ua. I haxe 
been able to jiidire from liiv own personal knowledge, that he is a man- of great 
sh,^3wdm'ss and very great depth, and that he might choose, knowing the great intliR'nce 
wjhfch he exercised over tliese people « ho ha\ e a much inferior educatiim to his nwn. 

tliat regarded him in the light aliimst ofasa\iour I have thought that he might 

hiive assunu'd for the puri'iise of maintaining his influence with them, more thtiu he 
riialiy believed. 

Q. That is your impression. Doctor? — A. I have; thought that it miglit be so. I don't 
t link it is, for I have never heard him speak on the subject. I have never heard him 
s )eak on that subject, and I gather that knowledge only from a general knowleilge of 
V hat has taken place, and fiom personal knowledge which I acipiired in speaking'w ith 
?lr. Kiel, but never on that subject. 

Q. And of course that knowledge is also based upon a very inij^erfect hearing of the. 
e 'idenee ? — A. On this evidence to day, it is not based I had a very imperfect hearing 
oC the evidem-i- of to-day, I am speaking only of the general iudgement I fortned in my ow n , 
niind, entirely apart from the evidence as given in this room : that is what I sjicak of. 

Q. That is entirely outside of what you have heard here ? — A. Yes, not, let me 
ol .serve, contrary to what I have heard, though it may be contrary to what I have not 
h^tard. 

Q. So that, now, Doctor, you are perfectly aware, are you not, that insane men have 

hibited very great shrewdness in some respc^cts? — A. Yes. 

* 
Q. Xow, are you in a position to say. Doctor,' on your oath that this man here is not 

II sane? -A. lam in a position to say that after a very considerable aniount of i-onversa- 
twin with him, and (laily communication with him, I have never spoken to him on a single 
Abjeut on wiiicii lie has Spoken irrationally. 

M Q. And you have never spoken to him on the particular subjects with reference to 
vhich he is supposed to have his delusions? — A. Name the subject. 



140 ■ 

i • 

Q. Oil relinioii, and on liis mission with reference to the North-West Teritories ?— 
ALJ. haive never spoken to hini on either. 

Q. Mr. OsLER. — We nmy, Your Honor, be'ahle to sliorten our i-vidcnce in reiily, if it 
would 1)0 convenient to udjourn now (Five P. M.) It is inipossilile to close tlie case to 
night, and it would Ije a inatter of convenience if your Honor would ajourn now. 

Mr. Leinieux. We agree if your Honor consents to it. We don't want to lie 
responsiljle. 

Court here adjourned till 10 A. M. 



not 



Regina, Friday and Saturday, July the .31st. and August 1st. 1SS5. 
I ' ... 

■Capt.aix Holmes Youx*;, (recalled) examined by Mr. Robinson 

Q. We have heard ^roni ym as to the part you took in this rebellion and I need 
•TO over that again. The prisoner was in your charge for a certain time ? — A. Yes. 

()■ When was he given in vour-charge ? — A. On the evening of the l.'ith may. 

Q. I5y whom ? — A.. By Major-( Jeneral Middleton, commanding the forces. 

<^. Wiiat were your insti'Uftioils ? what were you to do with hini ? — A. 1 was res- 
ponsible t'or the prisoner to liold him. < )n Sunday afternoon I received instruction to 
lea^e with liim for Kegilia. ■ ■ , 

Q. Was it on sunday afternoon that he was given into your charge? — A. He , was 
given into my charge on friday and remained in my charge till Sunday, when I reci'jved 
the order I have menti<ined W« left on monday at eleven and thirty minutes. 

Q. Wlien did you ileliver him out of your charge ? — A. [ delivered him here on the 
•2:5rd of Mav. 

Q From the tinre he tii-st came under your cliarge till the 2:5rd of May, he was 
/Constantly in your ciiarae ? — .V. Yes. , 

Q. I )ay and night- f-. — A. Yes. • • i 

<i Had you much conversation with him ? — A. About himself and his c^induil 
the ])iirt he took in the rebellion. We conversed almost constantly i»n<i very freely. 

Q. Fpon what sulnect ?— A. We conversed on almost every subject connected witii 
the rebellion. j ' 

Q Well then, will you tejl us what you think material and of importfince in hfs 
convei-sjition regarding the reliellion. and his owji conduct and the ^'t he took in it ?-i- 
A. fJ(ning tlie term of eight or nine d\iy.s that I was livin;; witli him'^litirely there w .s 
an imniense amount of conver.sation. I have no notes to help me in Spen4»ing and n|y 
remarks may be a good deal rambling i . 

Q. Well, tell us? — A. He did not speak in reference to FislNJri 
reference to Duck Lake, as 1 said the other day. 

Q. Did he speak in reference to liis general view and the conduct of the campaig^ ? 
— A. In reference to his jfeneral view, as to the conduct of the campaign, he e.\ pres.sv'd 
himself in this way, that he was not so foolish as to imagine that he lould wage wsar 
against Canada and (treat Britain. But he hoped by the first success to comjiel the Oa- 
nadian (government to consider the situation or accede to his demands He placed 
in this way, he hoped to surround and capture Major Crozier's forces and with them as 
hostages to compel the Canadian Obvernment to con.sider the situation, but they fai ed 
in that. ' 

Q. Did he say how he failed to capture Crozier ? — A. A battle occurred and 



md 

i 



' reek, he spoke fin 



^ ; 



141 



]ii)lii-c rctirt'd ; lie was iitteiiiptiii;; as I saul to sunound the police force, but thefight com- 
menced and tlie [lolice retired. He spoke in reference to attacking' the tiolmuii advanciiig 
from (^u'Appelle to the front. He said hedid not imagine lie could tight the arniv in the tield 
and the reason lie did not adopt guerilla warfare, was that he hopeil l)y remaining <|uiet 
to induce'tlie (ieiieral to .send a small force or to come ahead with a small force himself, 
and iit^ hoped to capture that small force and with them as hostages to compel tlie Cana- 
dian (iovernment to consider ;he situation. They failed/ in that. Aii<l then he made 
the attempt to capture the steamer Northcote, his intention lieing wlien he had captured 
those on hoard to hold them as hostages to compel the Canadian (iovernment to oon.-»i(ler 
the .situation. He said lie did not .severe communication with the East by telegraph because 
he hoj)ed to uso the telegiiiph when he captured the hostages. 

Q. Those were the general views he expressed as tft the situation and the svstem on 
which he intended to cany on the campaign and hoped of success'? I)id he talk about 
religious matters '. — A. I noticed that when the conversation was reaching a point that 
might be of great imi)ortanct! and if he wished for time to answer or to evade the point 
of the conversation, he immediately turned on religious matters. 



that 



wav .'—A. 1 



i). He seemed to use his views on religious matters in 
regarded it. 

t^. Did he express any special views aliout religion w hen he did turn the convensatioii ' 
^^AJ. We had a conversation on the subject of the days of the Week and the subject of 
the i-eformed church. 



whi-n tln-( 'hri^tian Church 

with it and he instancei 



i.ipanis 



l^. Tell us any views he e.xiuesed on ■ 
that (Jod's mercy was too great to be sinned away liyany person during the short time he 
'lail to live: he said tliere was a jieriod of puni.shment and after that tlfe jieison woirlil be' 
foi,'i\eu. In reference to the reformed Church and the days of the week, he said that 

merged from paganism it brought some of the remains of 
the days of the week. He wished to purifv Keliiriim 
uiil particularly in thi' North West, west of those parts. 

!<^>. .Vnv other mattei- .' — A. He especially mentioned about the infallibility of the 
ope. 1 do not think lie referred to any other dogma of the Church except that he tiesired 
lat the government of the Church might be locati'd in Canada ; once or twice theconvei- 
sation went back to tlie days of ti'.tand 70, and he spoke in reference to Arclibi.-;h<»|) Tache 
;i s a friend who had been very goo<l to him and he did not wish me to understand him as 
s avini; anvthing against Arclibislio]i Tache, or liishop IJoiirget of Montreal, because he 
lelt that lliev wi'ie personal friends, but lie felt that he was right and even jieisonal 
t riendship would have to give way. 

, (,». .\re there any iitlier general topics on which you conferred with him and on 
ijvliich he ga\e you any information ,' — A. He talked about the Indians in ditl'erent part;s 
(lif the country, about Irish aid from the I'nited .States, about the battle of IJatoche 
: md several incidents that occurred there. He spoke about the rebellion of "(i9 and '70 and 
(I uring the trip in waggons from Saskatoon to Moo.se Jaw we talked on almost every 
c n-unistance and subject, t^neday when we yamped at noon, in moving around the camp 
ir round to place sentries, I stiw some Indians signs which I destroyed. 1 calle<l his atten- 
t: on to them and he said it was ]iossible they might have been left there by a lodge of 
li ulians going from the Cypress Hills to help him at Batoche. ■ 

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you, of eoufse you cannot relate all the coij- 
vjjrsation, wa. *liere any other subject upon which you hail conversation that you 
reJcoUect ! — A. When we found the books and papers in the council room we found the 
wiord " Exovede ". This bothered us a great deal, I coukl not translate it at all and one 
of the first things that I asked the prisoner was i^hat the meaning of that was. he .wrote 
tlie meaning of the word in my note book, he wrote, also the meaning of his mission in 
fie note book. 

Q. l)o you remember what it was? — A. He said that every one had a mission, and 



142 ' 

' r 

that liis mission was to accoii'iplish practical results. The iiieaiiinjr of the word 
■' Exovede, ' was he said from two latin words, <'.'v"froin," nv'tti' ''the Hock/ That the coun- 
cillors were members of the liock. He hiuiself professed not to be from exovede, that • 
there was an exovede outside of him with the ptesi<lejit. 

y. Does anything else occur to you, I don't wish you to give all the conversation ; if 
you tell us what is important and material, that will be satisfactory to nie ? — A. Tliat 
is all I can think that will have any liearing on'the case, there was- a great deal of con- 
versation. X/ 

Q. From tirst to last of these conversations with you. did you observe anytjiing to 
arouse a suspicion or indicate that lie was of unsound mind I — A. Xone at all, cei-taiiily 
not. I found that 1 had a mind against my own and fiiHy e(|ual to it, better educated 
and much more' clever than I was myself. He would sto]i and e\ade answering (|uestions 
with the best possible advantage. 

t^. The idea of mental abeiration, unsoundness of mind, iiexei' occurred to you ? — A. 
I believe it was for a purpose, what lias been given as a reason for insii;iity. 

Q Did he profess to you to have the .Spirit of God or the power of j)ropliecy ?— A. 
No. never to me. 

liy Mh (iKEEXSIlIKLDS. ■ . . 

(j. What experieucje have you had in dealing with jieople of imsuiind ujind .' — A^ 
None at all. j ' 




Q You are only SfJeaking now from the conversations you had with 
— A. Merely from the nine days I lived with hiiii. 

y. You never had a medical education in that resjiect ? — AI^X 

Q. You do not consider yourself in a jiosition to gi\e an opinion as to sanity I- A- 

I coulil not give a medii'al opinion, but I consider that during the nine days 1 was !l\ing. 

with him, 1' would know if I was living with a lunatic. ^ i . 

s !* 

Q. Did you hear Doctor Clark state that it would take three -or four months to i.nd 

out whether a person was insane, in many cases ! — A I did. 

Q. Do you think you are as clever as these doctors who have stated that .' A. 1 
think, living with him as I did, it would be diflerent. \ . 

Q. Did you hear tlie doctor say it would re(]uire constant conversation witii the 
person to discover? — A Not constant, such intercourse as the superintendent of ;ui 
asylum would have. 

Q. Have you gotjthat little book he wrote in? — A. The Counsel for the (,'r(»\|n 
have it. j 

Q You state that he told you his mission was to pro<luce practical results? 
Yes, the e.xact words are in the little note book. 

Q. y6n gave him the book and asked him to write in it ?— A. He asked for pny 
book to write in it, so that it would be cori-ect and that there would be no misunderstiuid- 
ing about it after. 

Q. Did he tell you what the piactical results of his mission was to be ?— ^A. iHe 
spoke freipiently of the aiiniliilation of the Metis by the Hudson liay company and ,the 
mounted ])olice. I wanted to get at tlie meaning of the annihilation, but I could (not 
succeed, he evaded me. , " 

Q. The practical I results did he explain tn yonJ^K. His explanation was tha'f he 
■wanted to save the people of the North West from annTliilation. 



IS that 



Q. That- wa^ the practical result ofhis mission as you gathered in conversation with 
him ? — A. He evaded me, he would not come down to particulars. '( 



143 

Q. Did he tell you anything as to dividinir thq Territories among diflfereut national- 
ities ? — A. No, the first I heard of that was in the 'court room. 

Q. You stated that lie said he was not foolish enough to imagine that he could wage 
war against England and Canada ? — A. I asked liiiii how he exjieeted with 700 or tSOiO 
men to wage war against three millions of i)eople. 

Q. You included England? — A. Yes, being the governing country (u(;>te hook handed 
to witness wiio reads) " I have a mission, so has everyliody ; for me I understand my mission 
in this way : to liring ahout practical results." j 

Q. I understand there is something in your book in reference to the Word '•e.Yovide" ? 
— A. It is lengthy. i 

Q. No matter, let us have it? — A. It is as follows: '' e.rovde," from Latin 
word' «.c(»(v</<', " Hock," from two Latin words, e.i; which means, "from," and oril-', 
"flock." That word I made use of to convey that I was assuming lio audiority at 
all And t)ie advi-sers of the movement took also that title instea d of councilloip or rejire- 
se'utiitives ; and tliere purpose in doing so was e.vactly the same as mine, no assumption of 
autiiority. We consider ourselves a part of society and near us and other }>arts of the 
same society attempted to rule over us improperly and tiy false representations and 
thi-ough liad mismanagement of i)ul>lic atiairs were injuring us greatly, at the same 
tiijie rliey were olitainiiig the ear of tlie Government ; they were turning all the press 
ajfainst us. The situation was leading us simply to annihilation! Without assuming any 
aiithority than that wliicli exists liy itself in the condition of our nature, we recurred to the 
rigiit of self-preservation and tliose who agreed to act together in the protection of ttieir 
tixistence. threatened iii so n'lany diHVrent ways, took the names of <•.<•<>(■< (/^, so that having 
leir distinctive title for the time heing and to lie kuo4vn liy the men of the movement 
hen tiie crisis would he over, the reaction would lie as light as possible for tire reason 
hat what would have lieen undertaken and accomplished under the sound authoritv of 
iood sense, could have no other result than good ones, and conseiiuently the move- 
lent ]iro\ fd to lie less a disturbance than a remedy to some things which were previously 
going too far in the wrong. fSeveral times it is true we made use of the words represen- 
tatives, members of the coumil but Ave had to do it until the word i-.i-ored'' was under- 
stood and until it woulil begin to become usual among tiie men of the movement. So 
the council itself is not a council and being composed of '' exovede.s," we ha\ e called it 
" Exovedate." 



/i' 



Genekai. .MiDiiLETOX, recalled, examined by Mr. Robinson. 

Q. General JkEiddleton, you have been examined already in this case, on what date 
did you see Kiel come into your custody '. — A. on the loth of May, I think. 

Q. And how long was it before he left your camp ? — A. On the morning of the 19th. 

Q. iSo he was with you almost four days J — A. Yes, three or four days, i 

Q. .\.nd during that time had you much conversation with him ? — A. N<>, not much. 
I had more conversation with him th*«^rst day than any other, for I had him for the 
first [lart of the diy, in fact nearly /lie whole day, in my tent, until 1 prei>ilred another 
place for him, so that 1 really talkfed more with him on that day than any other. 

Q. That was immediately after his capture ? — A. Yes. | 

Q. Can you give us any general idea what your subjects of conversation with him 
were and what he said about himself and his party and his plans ? — A. W^'ll, I did not 
ask him much about them. I remember, asking him some ipiestions similar to what 
C.iptain Youiig has told you. I remember asking him why he confined himself to cutting 
the telegraph wire only between Frog Lake or between that station and Prince Albert^ 
why he confined himself to only removing that and not removing the other wire all 



Q Tiikinji hostages 
I think, l/y means of wlii 

<i Is there aiiytliiii; 



144 . 

around me. and as iieaj' as 1 can rememher, liil answer was tliat lie only wanted to 
cut ort" tlie police fronij Prince Alhert and tha^ lie thoii.ifht he ini.',dit deprive them 
of lieinj; able to connnunicate with the rest of Canada, and that he woulil [irolialily want 
to u.se it himself. And then 1 asked him how he came to think he would lie alile to wajje 
war aifainst Canada with Kn;;lainl at its back, because. 1 said, Hnirland would of course 
have come to the front at Canada beini; beaten : that it woidd have b<'en inijinssible for 
liiiii to liope to succeed ai^ainst Canada, and he u'iive nievery much a similar answer, that 
he did not expect to bi- able to beat then;, but he thonjiht that by dint of showing a jrood 
bold front that he would jirobably get better terms from the ( io\ ernment, and he .seeme<l 
to have an iudetinite idea, a sort of ftlea of taking everyliody prisoner he could lay hold 
of, that he thought lie could taki- Major Crozier, and he sijid he hoped to take me 
prisoner, and that he woiihl then ha\e got better terms. 

ill l)oiiit of fact ? — A. Yes, liostages, that was the general view 
ch lie woul(^l obtain better terms. 

else he said 'to you fin the subji-ct that you remember? — A. No, 
Icannot really remember anything more. 

*i. Did he ^peak to [vou on religious subjects J — A. Yes. - 

'' Q. What were his views .' -A. Heoften turned the cunversation to religious subjects. 
He told me some of his \ii<'\vs. Some of them I had nothing to say against. I used to 
listen to what. he had to say. He told me Rome >vas all wrong and corrupt, aud that the 
priests were uarrow-niin<|e(l and had interfered too mncli with the ]H'ople, and other'of 
his ideas were excessively good, he told me he thought religion should be ba>ed (in 
morality ami humanity aii<l charity-. He talked in that sense and stvle. 

<^. You cannot remember anything else just now thai he said to vou .'A. Xo, 

Q Kuring all your intercoiiise wiih him. did you see anything whatever to indicate 
any suspicion of unsounilness of niijid in him .' — A. No, I cannot .say I did, on the i-oii- 
trary. ' , 

<^. l)id it occur to you there was any reason to imagine the man was not perfectlyi 
sound in mind ^ — A Ni), I should say on the contrary he was a man of rather acute] 
intellect. He seemed ijuite able to liold his own upon any argument or topic we, 
■happened to touch upon. I 

<.^. That idea never occurred to you ! — A. Of course 1 had heard constaiitiv before 
aliout reports of his insanity. I hi'ard for instance one or two of the people that cscajieil | 
from him, scouts, H.ilflnveds. < )iie man, I remember, told me "(Ih; Hid is mad, he is a i 
fool." He told me that he was doing at liatoche. " So thai 1 r'eally had heard it, but I 
came to the conclusion he was v ery far from being mad or a fool. 

i}. That was your c([inclusion I — t^. Yes, that was my conclusifui. 

Examined bv .Mr < IkeenIsiiieliis. ^ 

I 

(}. l)id that man say what HiePwas (loing at Itatoche .' -A. Nothing, he simply 
said Kiel was i fool and hihrugge<l his shoulders. 

(j. The letters addivssed to you by Kiel were signed by him ■■ £.i-(ireile"l — A. 1 
believe they were. --No, J don t think they were, you have them there 

Q: f)£ i-ourse you ijiever had seen Kiel pieVious to his surrender on the loth.'— 
A. Never. 



Charles Bruce PitblaBo sworn, examined by Mr. Osler. 
Q. You live in Winuipejj and are a clergyman? — A. Yes. 

Q. Were you on the boat wjieii the prisoner was hrouyht down the Saskatchewan j 
— A. I was on the .Vorl/iciilv with Kiel. ■ ' ' 



145 / 

Q. From what date and for how long ? — A. We were on the )ioat niondav, tuesday 
and part of tlie Wednesday. 

Q. Were you in his couipany otherwise ? — A.- 1 aoconipanied hiiii to Regina. 

Q How many days were you ou tlie way altogether 3 — A. Five davs. We came here 
on Saturday and liad left on the moiiday. 

Q Had you any conversation with him ? — A. Several conversations v.ith him. 

i) On wliat sulijects? — A Well, on various sulyects, on tire reliellion, as 1 call it, 
also nil his religious views and we spoke of various other sulijects'. 

Q. Did he give you liis plans, his schemes, what he hojied to get l>y the M>ellion ? — 
A. ^ es,. his general scheme was this: he hoped to induce the (toverimient to make a' 
treaty with liim or with the Half-lireeds of the Xorth-West similar to the treaty they had 
made with the Half-breeds of Alanitolia. That was what he stated to Ke his chief oliject. 

Q. How did he hope to accomplish that with his force? — A. He told me tirst of 
having sent his hill of rights or representation of his grievances to the Governmeut. 

Q. How did he hojje with his organisation to get what he wanted ?— A. It would be 
neces.sary for nie to teH just how the niatter progressed. 

Q. No, we oidy want whut is material ] — A; Well, he hoped to get the police in his 
jx^wer, so that wliilst they were held, I suppose as hostages, he said silnplv while he 
hjjld thoiu, that lie nijght negotiate witii the Goverumeiit while they were inliis power.^ 

/ Q. Then did he sav how that failed.' — A. He explained, kow tliat failed at Duck 

4.ake. 

/ . . ■ . ■. "^ ■ 

I Q. Did he tell you what his object was at Duck Lak^ ? — A. His object was to get 

]|iold of tlie police, so that while, tliey were iu his power he hiight negotiate with the 

government. ^ - 

I <^. Then faili.iff that, what wis his next plan ? — .\. To meet General MiiUlletou's 

''forces at Fish (,'reek and if tlicy suH'ered rever.ses of which he was pretty contident they 
would, that he wouhl tlieii send wiml to tlii- Iniliiins and while the troops in the country 
■were busy with the Indians, wlm lie fi-h confident would rise, that then he would be able 
to negotiate with the Government. That is substantially the plan as it impressed itself 
on my mind 

tj. Thi> seito'n.l plan wis to rneet him at Fish Creek and then raise the Indians and ., 
whilst thecimutrv was engaged with the liidians.to carry on negotiations with the Govern- 
ment ? - .\. Tiiat is substautiaily wiiat I understood it to be. 

t^ Kaiiinii that, what did in- exjiect to do ; — A. Well, if that failed, and of course it 
did fail, he still hoped to meet lieiieral Middleton at liatoclie j'.nd he would be able to 
hold him at bav long enough to ni",'otiate \\ ith the Government. 

<^ The.se Were ills ^hree dill'erent stQps .- — A. His three ditTerent steps.- 

<>. All ending with the one object *-^A. Yes, to get a treaty with the Government. 

IJ. Xow you hiul a conversation with hiio, how frequently .- — A. I had tiiein often 
and during tin; wliole of that rime. I could not- tell the number, we often siioke totrether. 

Exaiuiiied by .Mr. (Jkkexmiiei.ds.' i 

iy How long did you say you had been with him on the l>oat altogether '. — A. From 
nonilay to Saturday, from tlie .time they stirted from liuardupuy cmssing till We. 
came to Itcgina. • 



^■. 



(i- You iip^^had seen Oi met Mr. Riel before that time 



-A. Xever. 



10 



146 

Captain Ricuabd Dease, sworn, examined by Mr. BuHBiDfiE. , 

Q. You belong to the Xorth West mounted police ? — A. Yes. 

Q. lias the prisoner been in your charge ? — A. Yes, since tlie 2.3rd of may last. 

Q. Have you had occasion to visit him frecjuently 1 — A. Yes, I have se^^n a gixid 
deal of him from first to last. 

Q. Since that time up to the present ? — A. Yes. . 

Q. You have conversed with him 1 — A. Ye.s. 

Q. Principally on wiiat subjects ? — A. Chiefly subjects affecting prison discipline and 
as to his diet and concessions as to lil>erty. All requisitions must be made to uie. 

Q. Have you been always able to grant them to liiin ? — A. Well, not always. 

Q. When refused did lie sliow any excitement or irritabiiily ? — A. No, his manii> r 
was most ])olite and suave and he never altered his manner in the least. 

<2- From the oljscrvatjon you had of him, have you seen anything to indicate he is 
not of sound mind ? — A. Nothing whatever. 

Q. Anytliing to indicate tiie contrary ? — A. Yes, t think so, he always gave me the 
impression of lieing very shrewd. 



■I ■ . \ 

Joseph Pifiorx, (Sworn, examined liy Mr. l>urliidg.'. 

Q. You are a member of the North West mounted police ? — A. V«^l • ' , 

<j. Wliat is your position ? — .\. Corporal. [ , -I 

Q. You have had chaifge of the prisoner i A. Yes. , 

Q. Since when 1 — A. 22nd of may. ' 

Q. Have you been his keeper ? — A. I have. 

Q. Did you see him daily ? — A. Many times a day. 

y. Have you convers(|d with hiii^ ?— A. I did not converse witii iiim. 

Q. You have had frecjuent opportunity of observing liini ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you seen anytliing in his conduct to show he is not of sound mind ? — .\, 
No Sir, I always considered him of souhd mind. 

Q. You have heard liilii speak ? — A. Often, Sir. 

(j. And he spoke with good reason ? — A. Willi reason and politeness. 

Mr. Osler. That is the close of the evidence in reply. 

Mr. FiTZPATHiCK follows, and after him tlie prisoner. 



147 



TIIH PRiSl^XER'S ADDRESS. 



Ueciust! till! , circiiiustaiiues are suvli as to cxiitti any in;>ii and under the 
txcitfiiicnt pt' wliJit is takinu' I'latii to-tlay (I t-aiiimt :sj><>ak. l'.ii<;ll>li veiv well, but 



Your II(jn<>rs, (tciitlenii'n of the Jury: It would In; easy tor me to-day to play 
iiisaiiit 
natur;i 

I am tiyiiis,' to do .sonii-causi! mn.st of those! heie r[ieak KiiL'lish). I'lider tlw? f\i-itehieut 
wliii-h my trial lausjff ijie would justily me not to Miiin-Jir as usual,' l«ut witli iny mind out 
of if< (Miliiiary toiKlJnon. [ liojie, with the liel]) of ( J<id. I will maii.taiii laimuess and 
(U'ii,.um as suits the HonoraKle Court, this lIoii.>nil>!<- Jury You liisve seen by the 
paiHMs in the hands of the Ciown that I aiu natui:illy inelined to thiiik- <>i ( )< il at the l>e<;in- 
inj; of \n\ actioas. I wisii, if 1 do it, you won't take it as a mark of iil.^.l!lity, that '^ you 
won t t.iki' it as part of a ])lay of insjiuity Oh iiiy (iod '. belli iho tJtrouirh tliy yraei- and 
• the divine intluenee of Jesus Chii.-t. Ohmylrod ! ije.ss me, hlesM this h.'Ufnat.le Court, bless 
this llon.irabli' Juiw ble,ss' my u'ood lawyers who have vonie 7UU leaj^ues to try tji sa\e my 
!litV, bl(>s alno the laywer-. for tpe Crown, be.aiise thf-y !ia\e-done, 1 -am sure, what they 
'thoiiifht ih.jrdiity. They have shown iiic fairness wliieif at tir.^t 1 did iitit exi-eet from 
I them I ih my (!.id 1 bless all tliose who artv around hk; throuvh the i;rac<^ and iiitfuenie. 
( of Je>u.» (,'iirir.t Our Saviour, cliaii'^'e the euriosity of t!<(.se who are j:;iyin^' attention to 
(■ lue, ehan^i! that euriosity into symiiathy with iiie The flay or my birtii" i was h_elj)l?.-.s an<i 
! my mother took caie of me aithoUi.'h she was not able to do it alon<;, there was ^oaie one 
I to helji her to take ciireof iu^ a'al I li\id. To-day, ait!ioui;h a inan, I aiu a^ heljilcM befoitf 
thin CMiirt. ill the 4>ondiiiou of Canada and injliis wjirld as 1 was lieiples.s on the kuees 
' of mv niotlier the day of itiy birth. The North \Vt;sr is also iny mother,- it is my nioth>-r 
country, and althou:.(h my mother eountry is siek and eontineti iu a certain way,lhero are. 
soiiK' fiiim Lower ( '.-inada who eame to help her to take eaie'of me during lier sivk'ie--.s, 
and I am sure that my mother eotiutry will not kill me more than my mother did forty 
year; a^o, when ( eaiae into the world, iiweau.se a mother is alwavs-it-iuotlver, and even 
if I h'U.- my faults, if --lie tan .sett I am true, .slie will bt- full of lo\e for Jiie. ' When I 
came into the \orlh-\\'e.->t in July, the first of July Issi. [ found the hidkCas sutleriu;.', 
I found tlie ll-ilf-breed.s eatitis,' the rotten [.ork of the Hiulson Bay Coinpaiiy, and glutting 
si.k aiid weik ev<'ry day. Altlioui^h a llalf-iir'-^'l and iiavini; -no pretention to help tlie 
whiter, r also paiil atti'lilion to them, 1 saw theS were deprived of re,|iousilile C;o\ernm«it. 
I saw tiiat they Were ;leiu-ived of their public liberties, I reiiiembered thtit Hall-breed nieant 
wliite and Indian and wWV-I paid atttiiitiou to the sutieriii'^ Indians and the. Half-breeds, 
I reiii.i.ibered that the :;ii!atest p.iWs of my heart and blood y.as white, aiui I ha-vi- directed 
my attention to help t he< Indian.s, tiv hel|) the f la!f-l>reeils and t-.i helji the whites to. the 
be-,t of my ability. We*lnve made pi-titions, I have inaile petitioiis with others t() the. 
Cairtdiun (loveriiuient,.}iskin'4 to ielie\e the condition of "this country. We have taken 
time, we hav e tried fo uiute ail cia.^ses even if I may so spe.ik, ail parties. Tha.se who havi 
been in clo^e communination with me know I have suti'ered, that I have waited months to 
briiii;- .some of the people of the Saskatchewan to an under.>.tandin_;,' of certain important 
points in oin- |)etitions to the Caiuidian (io'vernuuiit and 1 ha\e done tny duty. It has 
been --lid iu tld-i lio\ tint I had been ei;olistic. Perhaps 1 am esoti.stie. A mancainiot'' 
bean indi\idualty without payinj,'attention to himself, he cannot generalize himself though 
he iiiayJie u'l^neral. 1 ha\ e done all I could to make -rood petitions with others au<l we 
have .sent rhem to the Canadian ( Joverinnent, and when the Canadian Governmt nt clid 
answer throu^ih the under-.secietaiy of State to the secret iry of the joint couinnttee of 
the Saskatchewan, then I began lospeak of myself, not before. So my particular interest 
passed aft -r the public interest. A j,'ood deal has been said about the settjement and 
division of lands, a good deal had been said about that. I do not think my dignity to- 



148 



«Iay hciv woul.I allow iiio to iiiPutioii tlir- foroi).'ii policy. Imt if I was to oxplaiii to you or 
it i li:i(I lieeii allo\vi-.l to iiiak<" th'' (luestions to witnesses, tlioso fjuestioiis would liavc^ 
aj)li.-:ui-il in an altoiiillici- dili'ilient liijht Ijet'oii^ tlif Court ami Jury. ,'I do not say that 
niv lawyers (lid not ]int thi> ri},'ht i|Ui'.stions. The oliscrvations I liad tlic honor to make 
to till- Couil tlie-day before yesterilay were ^'ood ; tliey were at. sent of the situation, they 
did not know all the small cir«-uinst:ince.s as I <rh+. I could nif-ntion a ]ioint, l>ut thai point 
was leidin;.' to .so many, that I could not liave lieeu all the tinic su^r^'t'stiiiL' hv it. I don't 
wish it understood that 1 do ifot ajipreciate the' jrood work of my lawyers, hut if J wcrr 
to j,'o into all the details of what has taken place, 1 think I couhl safely show you that 
what Capt. Yo'inu' said, that I am ainiinj.' ajl the time at practical results. ar<' true and I 
could liave jiroved it... Durin;,' my lite I had aimed at jiractical results, f have writiii;is 
and after my death I liofie th.it my s])iiiit will hriuL,' pr.ictical results The learned lawyers 
for the Crown have produced all the papi-rs and scriliiilLuL,' that was under their hands. I 
thaiilt them for not havin;; lirou;,'ht out those papers which are so partiiulai- to myself, 
though as soon as they saw what they were, they shoulil not have looked at theni. I have 
written not hooks. Imt many Ihinus. All my papers were taken. I ilestined the jiapers 
to he puMished, if they were worth pulilishin;;^after my death. I told I'arentea'i. one of 
the prisoners, to put all my hooks under ground, he did not do it, at that time they 
licknowledged my order, that is why I .say so. He diil not put my hooks away in time, 
and- I am not sorry. I say I thank the learned lawyers for the Crown for ha\ inir reserved 
so many thin^rs, and if hy the Almighty power of (iod I go free from this tiial, Ihave 
such contideilee in Hritisli fairness that all niy ))apers will he returned tome, at least the 
6riginals and if copies are wanted I will Tie willing to give them. 5Co one can say that 
the Xortli-West was not sutl'erius; la.st year, particularly the Saskatchewan : fur tin- other 
parts of the North West I cannot say so much, hut what I have done and lisked and to 
which 1 have exjKjsed myself rested certiinly on tlie convictiiiii I had to do, wa> called 
upon to do .s.,nietliing for my country. — 

It is true r helieved for yeirs I h.i 1 a mission and when I spe-.ik •••' a nii>sion. you 
will understand nie n<)t as tryinu to ]ilay the loleof insane liefore the (iiand Jury so as to 
have a Verdict of accpiittal upon that gioiuid. 

I ijelieve 1 that I had a idission, I lielieve that I hafi a mission at this \ei-y nioment. 
What eucour.»'./es me to speak to you with more eontilence in all the inipirt<-it iun^ of my 
english way of .s])isikiiig, it isi that I ha\e yet and still that mission, and n> iih the hidjiof 
God.wlio is in til is box with me and lie is on the side of my lawyers, even with tin- honorahle 
, Court, the Crown and the Julry. to hel]! me and topio\ei>y the e.xtraordinary help that 
here is a Pi-ovidence to-day in my tiM as there was a Piov-i<lence in the l.atiles of the 
Saskatchewan. ' 

I have not assumed to nlyself that I had a mission. I was woiking in .Maiiitoli;i lir.st 
and I did all J could to get five institutions for Manitoha. They have tiio.M- institutions to- 
day in Mayitolia and they tr}- to improve them, while niy.<elf whoohtained them. I am for 
gotten as if I was dea<l. But after 1 luid olitained with Mie help of otlieisa constitution 
for Manitoba, when the government at Ottawa was not willing to inaugurate it at the 
pri>per titue. J liave -worked till the inauguration should take jilaceand that is why I have 
been baitiehe.l for live years. I had tciivst live years. 1 was unwilling to do it. I jirolested. 
I saiil : Oil iiiV (iod ! \ oljer you all my existence for that cause ami )ile.ise to make of my 
iveakness an instrument to help men in my country- And seeing my intenlion.s, the late 
Archbislioii I'l.iiigi t .said " Kiel has no narrow view.s. he is a man to accomfiiish great 
things '" and he wrote that letter of which 1 hope that the Crown has at least a copy. And 
ill another letter when 1 became what I )is lielieved to Jpe. insane, IJi.sho]) liouiL'et v. rote 
agiiiii and s;>iil '• \e be ble.-..sed by (iod and man and t.ike patieine in your esij.' .Xni 1 
not taking jialieiice ? Will 1 be lilesscd by man us I lia\e been bv Coil .' 

I .say that, I have been ble.s.sed by Cod and 1 hope that yoi; will not take that .■;.^ a 
presumptuous assertion. It has been a great success forme to oiiiethi-ough all the dan 
gers I liave in that 1") year.s. If I have not succeedeil in wc'aring a tine eoat myself I 
liave at the .same time tiie grpat consolation of .seeing+liat (iod lias maintained my views ; 
that he has inaintainetl mj- Itleaith sutticiently to go tlirougli tlie World and that he lius 



1!9 



kept Die from Iml'.ets wlieii liullets iiuiikcd my hat. I am lilfsswl liy Gcd. It is this trial 
tliat is Udim.' ttn-vhciw thiit I am <;<>iii<,' to Ik- Messed Ky man dui'inj; mv existence, the 
beiiiMliitious are a ;.'uaiaiitee that 1 was not wionjjed when Ky eiixiuiistanee I was takei^ 
away tVoui uiy adopted hind to my nati\e hind. When I see j'.iitish people sitting in the.' 
court ro ny me, lemenil.ei ing that tlie Kni.di>h people aie preud ot' that w^'id '• Fair plav,' 
I am ei'ntident that J will he Messed l.y (iod ami hy man aho. Not biilv l!i^hop Bourget 
spoke to me in tliat way, hut Father Jean-l;a).ti.>te Itmiio, the priest of Worcester, who 
was my director of conscience, .said to me : "Kiel, (o.d has put an oiTJect into vourhunds 
thecau-e of the trium|>li of relifriou in the world, take care, you -wi!! succeed when most 
lu'lii'Ve.you liave lost. ' I have got those words in my head, tliose words ol J. 1!. iJrunoand 
the late Ardd'islifip llourget. 

I!ut la-t year, while 1 was yet in Montana, while I wa.s passing helore the catholic 

church, the priest, the Hevd. Fathei- Fredeiick t^heVide, curate of the church of the 

■ Immacuhite C,om"ei)tionat |{enton,said to me •' I am glad to see you, isyour fan:ily heie '!' 

I said ye.s ; hesaid " (io and hring them to the altar, I want to hless you hetV.re you go 

away"' and with (jahriel I)umiPi:tand my family we all went on our kiVess at the altar, the 

priest put on his surplice and he took holy waterand \vas going to hless us. I >aid w illyou 

J allow miv to pronounce a prayer while you hiess me ; he .-aid yes, 1 want to kno\V what it 

'^ ' i. 1 told him the prayer, it is s]ieaking to God " i[y father hless ni-e,1icc('rdiiig to tlu; 

■ vieWs of thy Providence wliich are heautitul and without measure. ' He .said to me : "You 

' can -ay that ]>;ayei- while I hless ytai " Well he hlesstd me. I prononced that prayer for 

/ my~ilf, for my children and for (rahriel I'umont. Wlien the glorious geniral ^licldletoii 

j tired on us during three days and on our fandllcs and w hi n sIk'Us went and hulltts went 

as thick as moxpritoes in the hot day <if siiniiner, when 1 saw my cliildren, my wife, mv- 

1 .self and ( iahriel Dumont were escai'ing, 1 said that nothing hut the hiei-sing witlaut 

I iiiea.-.ure of Father Frederick Khex ille , could save ine, and thut can .save iiie today_/r< in 

I these charges. The hennliction prondsed to me .suiroui.did lue all tlie time in tlie Sa.skat-. 

ichewan and since, it seems to me that I luive .seen it. C'apt Deaue, corporal Prickart antl 
tlie corporals of the guard who ha\e heeii ajipointed over me have heenjsO gentle while 
the papers were raging against me sluiw tl:at ni thing hut the lentdjctiiai of U<k1 could 
give me the fav<Hii's 1 liaxr had, in remaining >fi iisjectid among the.'e, li:en. ' 

To-day, w heit I saw the liloiious (icni lal Midil'etoii 1 eariiiir te^tinu i.y tliat lie thought 
I was not insane, :i.nd Captain Young pro\e that 1 am n>i insi.ne, L feit that (iid wasi 
hh'ssiui;' iiic and hlotting av.ay fioiii my name the hlot resting upon my le] utation on 
account of havinv' hefii in the lunaiic .isylum of uiv good friend r)r Roy. Ihaxeheen 
in an asylum, i>iit I thank the lawyer for the Crown who destroyed the testimony of my 
fiiend I'r I'oy, liecaiise I have always helievtd that 1 was put in the asylum wthout 
rea.-on, tu-dav my pretention is guaranteed and that is a hle-sing tto in tlmt way. I have 
also hceii in'the lunatic a.sylum at Loiigue-Pointe, an<l 1 w'onder that my friend'Pr 
Lachapelle who took care of me charitahly, and J>r Howard are not here. I was there 
perhaps under my ow n name. _ -^ 

KveH if I v.as<.'oing to he sentenced hy you, Cicntlemen of the Jury, I liavethis tatis- 



factioii tliat if I 



I will not he reputed hy all 'nen as insane, as a lunatic. .\ 



good deal has heen said hy the two Ue\d Fathers Andre and Fourn:ond. I cannot call 
them my friemls, l.ut they made no false testimony, 1 know that a long time ago tliey he- 
lit^ved me more or hss insane. Father Fourmond said that 1 woiildpass ticui a great pas- 
sion to great laiiiMiess. that shows L'reat control under contradiction and actoiding to my 
opinion and with the help of (!od, 1 have that control. 

.Mr Charles Xolin when he went into the ho.v did- not say that he was .swdrn with iin- in 
all the aliairs, that i did far tfoni taking them as insiiiie atji4rs ; he was in thciii under the 
cos er of an oath with tour of us, he did not say that in the ho.x. Mr word is perhaps not 
lestinoiiv hut if he was asked in the ho.v to say if there was an oath taken, he couhl ni^ 
(hiiv it and he Would have to name the four men and would have to name himself 

When he speaks of resii;iiing a contract in my favoi', 1 did not ask it, the tJoveiii- 
meht Would not give it to me, hesides he w as engai;nl in a moveii'.eiit again=t the < !o\ 
meiit.anii to take a contract froTn the iJoverninent was certainly a weakness upon his pa 



150 • 

ji'id I tolil him not to coiiiproniise Iiis cause, and I told him to withdraw insti.'ad of ^o'l'^' 
.•i'ii>ad till we ^4■lw it' wo wt^ve ;j;oinj,' to l)c listened to at ail. ]{e wanterl me to nialce a 
li i!-i.'ain and to renounce my anierican citizeiisiiij). I told him that it was a mattir of more 
stre;i-4th tint P sluiuld he an anierican citizen, not that I want to make any yionnd of it, 
hut as it took place naturally and as the fact existed, I wanted to take advantau'c of it as 
ss'aeli. I told'liim it is of advaiitage for you that you should Jiave me an american citizi'ii. 
I have no t>ir<^:iin fto make wtith you ahout my american papers, no harj^ain on such a 
-matter as that. Mr. Charles Nolin s])eaks of iny own amiiition, and other witnesses also. 
There are men ambni; the prisom-rs wJk) know that last yetir Mr Renez and ?ilr •Joseph 
For.Ltet came to tint Saskatchewan and y»i<l I could hive a pjaee in the ( Vuuii'il if I wanted 
it. and that it w:<s a i; lod chance for the lialf lireeds of the Saskatchewan. If I hid 
i)pen so anxious fur pi-ition I would have ;;^ias|>eil at this place ; liut I did not. and 
Mr. Noiin has soiue knowledge of .that. I speak of those tliiii;.'s to defend my elmiMcler 
as it h.is lieen saidj that I am egotistical 

The a^'itatio|i in the Xorth-We-t Tciritories w.iuld have heen constitutional and 
would certainlv hi-|constitatio(ial to-day, if in my opinion we had not heen nttai ke.l. I'erhaps 
the Crown has not heeik ahleito find out tin- p.irticulais that we were attack. 'd. hut as we. 
were on the .sc+'nej it .was eisy to understand AVhen we send petitions to the (iovern- 
iiieiit, they used ti) answer u.f l.y sendii*!!^ jioli.-e, aiirl when the rumors v.cre increasinj; | 
every da\* tiiat Kiel li:id hcei^ shtit liere.or tliere, or that lliel was ,i;'oin>,' to he shot hy i 
.such and such a inaii, the jihlice would not ]f\y any attention 1o it. 1 iim irlad that I 



t > tne witnc-s.ses 



I 



lie jiblice w 
ice. Iliecau.s 



hive mcntio'iefl the jiol 

duriin; the exauiijiation of niany of the witnessivs. If Iharl liefejl allowed to put ijuestions 



lUld I 



of t!ie te-!tiii>ony tliat l^as heen ;.'iven in tlw Imx \ 
hf \vifiit.«i.< It' rii:..l liefejl allowed to put ijUestions ' 
I .saiil a siii;;le w.ird against a j 
.single p diceman or a jingle «)!iicer. I have respected the |)olicemen and I do today, and' 
I h.ive resjie.'ted the oliiiei^ of the police; the ])a))er that f sent to Majoi- Cro/ier is a 
proof of it : "We resjiect yciii Major." Thei-e are papers which tlie Crown ha-, in its 
lianils and wiiicii show that (lemoralis itioii exi.sts among the Poliie, if yoii v. ill allow me 
t'> say it in tiie ( ii'irt-e-s I have s.iicl it in writing. • 

Your Honors, 'ientlemen of the. fury: If I was a man of to-day ]ierli(ps it would he 
■presuinfituoiis to speak iii that way, hut the truth is good to say, and it is said in a 
proper manner, and it i.s jnot without presum])'ioii, it is not hecause I have heen 
lioeiled for 1 .T vears that 1 1 do not l)elie\e myself something. 1 know thal| through the 
grace of (fod I am the founder of Manitoha ; I know that. though [ have no open road for 
my iiiiluenie, I have hig intluence concentrated, as a hig ainftunl of vapour in an 
engine.. I helieve hy what I sutiered for lo year.s, liy what 1 haie tlcjiie for Manitoha 
and the peojilf of the Nortli-Weit that my words are worth something, if I give oHeiice I 
do not speak tfi insult. Vfts, 3'ou are the )jionecrs of civilization, the Whites are the 
pioneers of civilization, hut they Tiring among the Indians demoralization. Do iiot he 
ortend' d ladies, (I > not he offended Here are the men that can cure that e\il. and if at 
till! 'S I h ive l»-en strong against my true friends and Fathers, the ]{everend Priests of 
the S.isk itchewAii, if is hecause my convictions are sti-ong. There have heen witnesses 
to show tliat innnriliately after great jiatiencc; \ could come hack to tin- resjiect I have 
for them. 

Onerif the witnesses here, (ieorge Ne.ss, T think, .said that T spoki- of .\rchhishop 
Ticin' and tohl him that he was a thief. If I had had the op|iortunirv I pr^i|ii>.-^e 1 I 
WDuId h ivi- •piestioned hii)i as to what I said so that you would underst.md nie. 1 have 
known Archlii-hoji 'I'.iehe as a great henef.ietor, i have se'-ir him surroumled 'iv his gi'eal 
];r)j)erly, the ])roperty of a witlovv whose road vfas passing near, he hought the land 
around and tiok th it way to try and get her jiroperty at a cheap ]irice ] read in the 
(i )>pel : •• Ye Pharisees with your long prayers devour the widows." .\nd as .Xchhishoji 
Ta'he is my great henefactor, as he is my father I would say liecause he has done ne' an 
immense deal of good, and hecause there w as no one who had the cimrage to tell him, I 
did, hecause I love him, hecause I acknowledge all he has done for me. As to Hishop 
firandin, it_w<',s on the saiiie grounds. I have other instances of liishop Tache, and the 
witness could have said as the lievd Father Moulin : " When you speak of such jiersons 



151 



as Aroliliishop Tac-hi' you ouij;ht to say lieniado a niisttike not tliat lie coniinitted robbery.'* 
I say tliat we Imve l)eeu patient a lonj; time and when we see tluvt inikl words onlv serve 
as covers for^jreat fmes to do wroiis;, it is time when we are Jiistitied in sayinj; that rotiVierj' 
is rol)l)erv everywliere an<l the jjuilty ones are hound liy the force of puhlie opinion to 
take notice of it. Tlie one wlio has tlie uouraj^e to speak out in tliat way instead of 
heinf,' an outratfeous man heconies in fac-t a benefactor to tliose men tliemselves and to 
society. . . , 

Wlien we t^ot to tlio cluircli of St Antoine on the iJ^th, tliere was a witness who 
said, I think t!eori;e Xess, that 1 saiff to Fatlier Moulin "You are a Protestant Accor- 
ding; to my theory I was not jroiiij; to speak in that way, but 1 said that we were protes- 
tint; Hfjainst the Canadian (iovernmeiit and that he was protesting against us, and that 
we ,\V(M'0 two ])rf>testants in our ditlVreiit ways. 

.\h to religion what is my belief .' Wiiat is my insanity about that ! ^Fy insajiit\-, 
Tour Honors, (ientlemen of the Jury, is that I wish to leave Rome aside inasmuch as it 
is the cause of division between the ('atlinlii's and Protestants. I did not wish to force mv. 
views because, in Batoche, to the Half-breeds that followed me I u.sed the word Curh' 
hlfnii)i>\ If I have any iiitluence in the New World it is to help in that way and even if 
\\ takes two hundred years to bi'come practical, thiMi after my death that will lirini; out 
Jjatical results, and then my children will shake hands with the Protestants of the Xew 
^'orld in a friendly manner. I do not wish those e\ils which e.xist in Kurope to be con- 
tinued as much as I can inHueiice it, among the Half breeds. 1 do not wisli that to Jie 
repealed in America, that work is not the work of some days ov .some years it is the 
work of hundreds of years. ' i 

My condition is helpless, so helpless that my good lawyers and they have done it 
with coiivicti(Ui {.Mr. Kitzpatrick in his lieautiful speech has proved he believed I was 
linsane), nvv condition seems to be so 'helpless tliat they lia\e recourse to try and |>rove 
'insanity to try and save me that way. If I am insane, of course I don't know it. it is a 
)|iroperly of insanity to l>c unabh; to know it. Hut wliat is the kind of mission that 1 
,1liavc? Piactiial results. It is said that I had myself acknowledged as a prophet by 
\ the Half-breed-i. The Half-lire.-ds have some intidliijence. ('apt. Younir who has lieen so 
jxilite and gent U- duiinu' tlie time ] was under his care, saiil that what was done at liatoche 
from a military p<iiiit of \ iew was nice, that the line of defence was nice, that_ showed 
some intelli;;ence. It is not to be sujiposed that the Half-brceils acknowledge me as a 
Jirophet if they had not seen that 1 could see something into the future. 1/ 1 aiii blessed 
without measure I can see souiething into the futur.-, we all see into the future more or 
le-,s. As wliat kind of a projihet would 1 come ? W.puld it be a jirophet who could all the 
time have a stick in his hand and threatening, a pro|iliet of evil ? if the Half-breeds have 
acknowledged me as a prophet, if on the other side priests come and say that I am polite, if 
there are general otlicers, goo<l men, come into this lio.x and pi-ove that I am jiolite, pro^e 
that I am decent in my manners, in conbining all together you have a decent [irophet, 
An insane man cannot withhold his insanity, if 1 am insani' my heart w ill tell what is in 
me. I>ast niitlit w liile 1 was taking exercise the spirit who u'uides and assists me and 
consoles me told niethat tomorrow somebody will come '•t'aider, ' and help me 1 am con- 
soled by that. While I was lecurring to my (!od, to ( >ur tiod, I said: P>ut wi.e to me if you 
Hot help me, and tliose wurds came to me in the morning : "In the morning some one will 
coicie i'ltiih-,-, that is to-day ' I said that to my two guards and you can go for the two 
i.%ards I tolil them that if the spirit that directs ir,e is the spirit of truth it is to-day 
that T e\pe< t lielp. Thi^ iiioining the good doctor who has care of me came to me and 
.said ; '• Von will s]ieak to day before the Court," I thoULtht 1 wimld not be allowed to speak, 
those words were given to me to tell me that I '■ ould ha\e the liberty to s]«eak There 
' was one French word in it, it meant, I believe, that there was to be some trench iiiHuelice 
in it. lait the most part English. It is true that my good lawyers from the province of 
K Quebec have given me good advice. 

Mr. Noliii cane into the bo.v and said tliat Mr. Kiel sai<l that he heard a noise in 
his bowels and that I told him that it meant something. I wish that he had said what I 
.said, what I wrote on the paper of wliicli he speaks, perhaps he can yet be put in theViox. 



152 



I said to Noliii "Do you Iicar ? " ■ Yes, I said tliere will l)e troulile in the North-West 
and wfts it so or not, Iihs iliere heen no troul)le in the Nortli-West ? Hesides Nolin knows 
that aniong his nationality which is mine, lie knows that the Ilalf-lireeds as hunters can 
foi-etell many thinf^s, peihaps some of you have a special kno\vled;<e of it. I have seen 
Half-l)reeils who say : "my liand is shakin.i,', this j.iirt of my hand is shakinif, you will see 
such a tliinsf to-day," and it happens. Otheis will say " I feel the flesh of my \cii movo 
in such a way, it is a siitn of such a tliin>;,'' and it happens They are men who know that 
I speak riyht. If the witness sjioke of that fact with which he mentioned to show that I 
was insane lie did not leiiiemlier that pciliaps on that point he is in.sane hiiiisclf, l.ecau.se 
the Ilalf-Kreed hy the movement of his hand, .sometimes of his shoulders, sometimes his 
leg,.ciUi liave certain knowledj;e of what will happen. To hrinj,' Sir John to my feet, if 
it was well reported it woidd appear far more reasonable than it has heen made to apiiear. 
Mr. J'laki', the li-ailir of the Dppo^ition, is tryiu.^- to brin^ Sir John to his feet in one way. 
He never had as much at t^taki> as I had, althoui,'li tlie |)rovince of Ontario is f;reat it 
js not as fireat as the Xortli-West. 

I am ju'lad that tliethown have jiroved tliat I am the leader of the Half Uii'eds in the 
North-West. I will ]ierlia)is lie one day acknowledj^ed as more than a lea<ler of the Ifalf- 
lireeds, and if I am I will have an opportunity of liein.!.^ ackuowledj^ed as a leader of <.;ood 
-in tliis i;reat eiuiitry. 

One of. tin; witnes.ses said that I intended to i;ive X^])per Canada to tlie Iiish, if Ke 
hfid no mystery he would have seen that Upper Canada could not lie ;^iven to the Irilli 
without lieinj; {.'ivx-n to Kniiland, he ri'sted only upon his ima^iiiatiou. 

Tliere is anotiier thiiii; aliout the j>'artition of the lands into seven. I do iifit know i|" 
I am prepared to speak of it here because it would become j)ublic information, tliere is up 
much at stsike that if I e.vplained that theory Canada would not very lon^ remai^ 
Iquiet. |- 

Capt Deane lias Seen my pajiers, I have sent them somewhen^ but he has seen thani^ 
and after seeing; them he eaiiie tliere aufl said that I was an iiitellii;ent man and preltyi 
shrewd. I have written tlhe.se documents and they are in the liaiids of those whoiii Cj 
trust. I do not want to make them ]iublic\,duriiif; my trial what I have not made public 
durin;; tiU day.s we were in arms at liatodu^, there have been theie ditl'erent times when 
tlie (_'ouncil decided to .send men to the States to notify the nationalities to ciuiie to our 
assistance, but ^hree dele;.';|itions waited tVil- my orders and have not started. Why ,' J!ecau.se 
I had an object. The Half-breedsahjiHciiow that I told them that I would lie punished, 
that I did not say it of my own res|)onsaliility but that 1 said it in thi; same way as 1 had 
told tlieiii other thing's. It was .said to me th.at the nation would be punished. Why • ISecause 
she had consented to leave Home tooipiick. What is the meaninj; of that ,' There wms a dis- 
cussion about it tfxj ijuick. They .sai<l that they should do it at once. Too (|iiick does 
not mean too .soon. If we .say ye.s, it shows no consiihration to the man. If (iod wants 
sometliing and, if we say yes, that is not the way to answer Him, he wants the con.science 
to say yes : < >h my (iod. I do thy will ; and becau.se the Half-breeds ipiickly .separated from 
Rome in such a cjuiek manner it* was disagreable to (iod and they were punished and 1 
told them it wmild hajipeir, lifty rif those who are tliere can prove it. liut you will .say : 
" ^ ou did not put j'ourself asa ])ropIiet '. The nineteenth centurj' is to be treated in certain 
ways and it is probably for that rea-oii 1 have found the word "Kxovedt^'. 1 prefer to lie 
called one of the Hoik. I am no mure than you are, I am simply one of the tlock, e.|Ual to 
the rest. If it is any satisfaction to the doctor to know what kiiul of insanity 1 have, 
if they are goijig to call my jiretentions insanity, I .say, humbly, through the grace of 
God I believe I am the prophet of the New World. 

I wish yon to believe that I am jiot trying to play insanity, there is in the manner, in 
the standing of a man, the proof that he is sincere, not playing. You will say, what 
have you got to say ( I ha\^ to attend to ju-actical results. Is it practical that you be 
acknowledged as a prophet / Is it practical to say it. I think if the Half-breeds 
have ackiioledged me, as a community, to be a prophet. I have reason to believe that it 
is beginning to become practical. I do not wish for iiiy satisfaction the name of prophet. 
Generally that title is ac({oinpaiiied which sucli a burden, that if tliiie is satisfaction for 



153 



your vanity thero is a dieck to it. To set myself up as Pope ! Xo, no I I said I >ielieve<l 
that Bishop liourget had sucofeded tiie Pope in spirit and in trutli. Whv ] Hecauso 
while Rome did not pay attention to us, he as a liishop paid attention to us. 

You have f^iven me your attention, Your Honors, you liave <;iven me vour 
attention (Jentlenien of the Jury, and this j^-eat audience, I see if I >:o anv further 
on that ])oint 1 will, loose the favour you have granted me up to tliis time, and 
as I am aiming all the time at practical results, I will stop here, ina.ster of myself, 
through the help of (JcmI. I have finly a few more words to .say, your Honors, 
(ientlemen of the Jury, my rei)utatif>n, niy liherty, my life are at your discretion, so con- 
fident I am that I have not the sligJitest anxiety, not eyen the slightest douht as to yciur 
verdict. Tli< otilmness of my mind concerning the favourable decision which I ex]>ect 
does not come from any unjustitialile pres\niiption upon my puit. I simplv trust t'lat 
througli ( Idd's lifl]) you will lialanci' every tliiui; iu a consciencious manner an<l that alter 
lia'ving heard wliat I had to say, that you will aci|uit me. Itio respect you althoiigli 
}(Mi are only Irilf a jury, l)Ut yf)ur numtier of six does not pri^vent you froni heing iu^t 
an<l consi-ieniious, yiiur nund)er of si.x does not pre\t?nt me gi\ ing you niv contidence 
which I woulil >;r.int to another six also. 

Your llonur, liecause you appointed those men do not lielieve tliat Idisresje't you. it 
is not liy your own choice, you were authorized liv those above you, hy the aii'.horities 
in the Noith-West, you have acted accortling to y<iur duty, and while it is in our view, 
apSiinst the guarantees of lilierty, I trust tlie Providence of (Jod will l>ring out good of 
v/hat you have dontf conscientiously. 

I Althfiugh this'court has heen in existence for the last 1-3 years, I thought I had a 

right to lie tried in another court. [ do not disrespect this court, I do respect it, and wlat 

iU callfd liy my learncil and yood lawyt-is the inc(^m|ietency of the couit, must not lie 

called in disrespect, hecau.se 1 iia\e all le.sjiect. 

( j The only things I would like to call your attention to, hefore you retire to delilierate, 

\Vre : 1st. That the House of Commons, Senate, and uiinisters of the l)ondnion wlii> 

iJinake laws for this land and govern it are no representation whatever' of the jieopU- of 

J the North-West 

2ndly. Tiiat the Xorth-W est Council generated hy the federal tiovcrnment has the 
great defect of its ]>arent. 

.'Irdly. Til.' nuudier of mendiers elected for the Council hy the people make it only a 
sham representative le;;islature and no representative (lovernment at ail. 

liritish civilisation, which rules to day the world, and the l!ritish constitution has 
delined such ( •overinnent as this is which rules the North West Territory as irrespon- 
silile < iovernnu-nt, whicli plainly means that there is no responsilility, and l>y the science 
which has heen shown here yesteiday your are compelled to admit it, there is mt respon- 
sibility, it is in.sane. 

(lood^ense coud)ined with scieiitilic theories lead to the .sanu' conclusion. 

liy the testimony laiil Ijt^fore you during my trial, witnesses en Ixith sides made it 
certain that petition after petit^^n has been sent to the Federal (iovernment, and so 
irresponsible is that, (Jovernment to tiie North- West, that in the course of several 
years beside doing nothing to satisfy the people uf this great land, it has even hanlly been 
able to answer oni'c or to give a sinj;le resptinse That fact would indicate alisolute lack 
^of res|ionsibilitv and therefore insanity complicated with paralysis. 

The ministers of an insane and irresponsible (iovernment and i<s little one the Ninth-' 
West Council made up their mind to answer my petitions by surrounding nie slyly and 
by attempting to jump upon nie suddently and upon my people iu the Saskatchewan. 
['Happily when they ajijieared anil showed their, teetli to devour, I was ready ; tliat is 
iwhat is called my crime of high treason and for which they hold me to day. ( )h, my 
good Jurors, in the nauie of Jesus CHtrist tlie only one who can .save and lielp me, tliey 
have tried to tear me t(j pieces. 

If you take the plea of the defence, th.at 1 am not responsiI)le for my acts, acijuit me 

completely, since I have been ipiarrelling with an insane and irresponsible (iovernment. 

ou pronounce in favour of the Crown, which contends that I am responsible, accjuit 



154 , 

>ini all the sanje You are i)erfectly justified in declaring; tliat haviiip; my reason and 
souiiil mind 1 liavi; acted rea.sonaT)ly and in self-defence, while the Government, my 
accuser, heinj^ invsponsihle and consoijuently insane, cannot liut have acted wron^, and 
if liigli treason tliere is, it liiust ))e on its side and not on my part. 

His IIokAr. — Are you <lone? 

PiiisoxKR. — Xot yet, if you liave tlie kindness to permit your attention for a while. 

His Hoxoh. — Well, ])roeeed. t . " ■ 

PliisoSElji. — For tiftwn yevrs [ liave ln'cn nej^lectiu,' myself, even one of the most 
hard witnesses on me saif) til it with all my vanity 1 never was particular as to my 
clothin'i ; yes,! l)ecaus<3 I liever liad much to Ijuy any clotliin|:(. The reverend Kutlui- 
Andiv. has often had thej kindness to feed my family with a sack of tlour and Father 
Fourmond ; niy wife aiKJ children are without means, wliile 1 a<n working; more th^m 
any representati\e in tliti North-West \Jtli(iu;,di 1 am simply a guest of this country, a 
f^uest of the llalf-Iireetis (i)f tlie .Saskaldibv^""- Althou,i,di as ii simple i;UMst 1 work ^o 
lietttr till- condition of ^hc jieople of the Saskatchewan, at the risk of my life, to Ix-tter 
condition-of the jMojile of the North-West, I have never had any pay. It has always Keen 
my liojieto hale a fair li\ tii!,'one di.y. It will he for you to jiKinounce. ]f you say I was ri'.'ht, 
yon I an conscientioiisly acijuit ine, a.s I lin]ie tlirou;;h tile lielp of (iod, y<ai will. \<Hi 
will console those who li^\c lieen fiftcMni years around me, only ]iaitakin.;,' in my sntlVr- 
injft : what you v. ill do ii justice to me, in justice to my family, in |i!-.tiri' to my fiicnds. 
in justici' to the North-\^'est, will lie rendered a huii(lied tim(> to you in this worlq, 
and to u.se a sacred e.\iiri|-ssion, life everhistiiiL; in the ether. ., 

I thank your Honors for the favour you liave LTianted me in s]ieakinLr, 1 thank ymi tqr 
the attention vou have yiven me, (jentleiijen of the .Jury, anil [ thank those who lia\e hiul 
the kiiiilness to encourage my imperfect way of speaking the Kiiglish language li^ 
their good att^'iithon. I jait my speech under the jirotection of my t!od, my Saviour, lit\ 
is the only one who can iiiake it effective, it is possible it should hecome eti'cctive as ifi 
is proposed to good men, to good peojile, and tf> good lailies also 1 

iffi 



ilr. liohinson for tiie prosecution addresses the jury and 
Judge deliscis his charge. 



On the jury returning, afle 
the Court asked : (jentlebiien, are 
prisoner guiltf- or not guilty '! 



I The jury iiiid tlie pr 
I (Tlekk. — Oeiitleiiien 



iim the presicliiig 



I 



li.a\-ing retired to consider their verdict, the clerk of 
yoii ai^reed upon your verdict i jlow .say you? Is the 



• prisoner guilty. 



of the Jury, liearken to your verdict, as the Court records it 



You find t!ie ju-isoner, Louis Kiel, guilty, so say you all. 

The Jury answered ': (Juilty. ■ ' • • /' ^ ' 

A JL'ROK.--Your Honor, 1 have lieen asked by my brother-jurors to nM^omiuend 
the prisonei' ti the mercy iii the Crown. 

AI^. Jt'STiCE RirinHDSON. — I may say in answer to you that the recoinniendation 

which you have given wtjl be forwarded in proper manner to the proper authorities. I 

' i ■' 

3[r. ItOB|ysox, — Doc Your Honors propose to pass sentence now. I believe the proper 
course is ttp asjk the .sentej^ee of tlie Court ujiou the prisoner. 

iMr. JfsTK'E Ricil.vitDSON. — Louis Kiel, have you anything to say wlij- the sentenctl 
of tliH Ci)urt .sliould not b ; pronounced upon you, for the otl'ence of which you have l>eei] 
found guilty. j 

PKisoxEii. — Yes, Yiur Honor. 

Mr. FiTZp.^TBiCK. — before the accused- answ;ers or mak6s any remarks as suggeste 



155 



l>_v Your IToiior, I would lieg leave simply to ask Your Honor to kindly note tlie ol'jection 
which [ have already taken to the jurisdiction of the Court. 

Mr. Justice Riciiakusox. — It is -noted, Mr Fitzpatriek, You undcrstajid of course 
why 1 cannot i-ule upo)i it. . (^ 

-M. FiTZPATUlfK. — It is simply so as to reserse any recourse the law may allow here- 
after. .. " . 

P'flsoNF.K. — Can I speak now ? • . ' - « 

Mr. JisTlcK RlcilAHI>sox.--( )h yes. ' - - 

pKlsoxKij. — Your Honor, pentlemen of t!ie Jury. ... ' . 

Nir. Justice RiciiAROso.vS—Tlnrr is no jury now, iliey are discharged. * 

'rLsoseu.— Well, they have pas.sfd away liefore me. ' 

'Mr. JusTICK HlOllAiiDHON — Yes, they have passed away. 

'PilisoxEU. — Hut at the same time, I c.msiiler them yet still there, still in their seats. 
Tli'jf'ourt has done the work for me, an<l althout;h at first appearance it seems to tie 
i;,'t/inst me. I am so eonli.l-Mit in the idi;a which I have hiul the honor to express yesterday, 
tliajt I think it is for j^ood and not for my loss. Up to this moment, 1 ha\e 'been cbn- 
sidj'red hy a <!ertain ])arty as insane, l>y another jwrty as a criminal, hy another party as 
a iKi 111 with whom it was dnu'itful whether to havi- any intercourse. So there was 
hoJtility and there was contempt, and there was avoidance To-day, hy the verdict of the 
Cojirt, one of these three situations has disappeared. 

I I suppose that after haviiij^ heen condemned,.! will cease to he called a fool, and 
foil me it is a ^'reat advantaL'e. I consider it as a great advantage. If 1 have a mission, I 
s» J "If" for the sake of those who douht, liut for my part it iiieans " Since, " since T 
lir Ve a mission, I cannot fullii my ndssion as long as I am looked ujion as an insane 
l"Unn,' — human heing, at the moment that I l>e;;in to ascend that scale, I Wei.'in to succeed. 
I \ ou have asked nie, ^ our Honor, if [ li id aiiythiiii,' to say why my seiitenee should 
n >l lie pas.-ied. Yes, it is on that point particillarlv my attention is directed. Refore sayinu 
a lything aliout it, I wish to take notice that ii' there has e\ cr lit'cn any contradiction in 
n ly life,- it is at this moment, and do I a]>pear e.xcited ? Am I verv irritable ? Can I 
c iiitrol my.self .' Aiul it i.s just on religion and on politics, and I am contradicted 
!i t this moment on iiolilics, and the smile that comes to my face is not an act 
my will, so much it comes naturally, from the satisfaction that I prove that 
[■experience seeing one of niy dithculties di.sajipearing. Should 1 he executed, at least if 
l| were going to lie executed, I would not he executed as an insane man, it would he a 
•eat consolation for my mother, for my wife, for my children, for my brothers, for niv 
rMpiiti\es, e\en for my protectors, foi' my countrymen. 1 thank the gentlemen who were. 
c»'|ii])Osing the Jury foi- lia\iiig recommended me to the clemency of the Court. When I 
el'.press the great hopi' tiiat I have just expressed to you,*^don't express it without 
•oiind, njy hopes are reasonable, and since they are recommended, since the recomniend- 
ion of the.luivfo the Crown is for cleniency. It would be easy for me, your Honors, to 
ike an incendiary pintest, and take the three reasons which have been rea.sonably put 
[irwaiil by my good lawyers and learned lawyers, about the Juiy, about their selection, 
liout the one who selected them, and about the com]>etency of the Court, but why should 
do it, since the Court has undertaken to prove th.at I am a rea.soiialdc man ! Must not 
[take advantage of the sitdation to show that they are right and that I am reasoiia>ile, 
[id yesterday, when I said by rejieating the pvideiice which has been given against me, 
leii I said ill coiicliisioii that you had a decent prophet, I have ju.st to-day tlie,-great 
.'|..irtunity of pro\ ing it is so, besides clearing me of the stain'of insanity, clearing my 
.11 er of the stain of insanity. I think the verdict that has been given against me is a 
•i.nf that I am more, than ordinary myself, but that the circunistanues and the lulii that 
given is more tlian ordinary, are more than ordinary, and although I consider luy.selt" 
Iv as others, yet by the will of Ciod, by his Providence, by the circumstance^ which hfva 



154 



«ni; iill .tlip saiiiP You aro )>t>j^ectly justified in (leclariiii,' tliit haviiif,' my reason and 

sound mind i liavi; acted re:Sonal)ly and in self-defence, wliile the Government, my 

accuser, lieinj; invsponsilile and consei|uently insane, cannot Init liave acted wronj,', and 
if liigli treason. there is, it must be on its side and not on my part. 

ill.sUoxoH. — Are you done? 

PrI80NK|{.— Not yet, if you liave the kindness to iM-niiit your attention for a wliihi. 

His IIonou.— Well, prrtceed. 

PuisoXKU. — For fifteen ye irs I have lifen nej^lectini; myself, even on<' of the most . 
bard witnesses on me said that with all my vanity I never was j)articular as to my 
clothinj; : vi-s, lierausi- I never had ninch to liuy any clothint;. The rcM'rend Father 
Andie. has often liatl the kindness to feed my familv witli a sack of flour and Fathi-r 
Fourinond : my wife and children are without means, while I am wofkin^' n;orc th\in 
any "ii').resentati\e in the Xoith-AVest altlioUL;h I am simjily a ,1,'uest of this country, :i 
guest of the {ialf-l>re'.'<ls of the tsaskatcliewan. Althouuh as a simple ijuest i woik ^o 
better the condition of the people of the Saskatchewan, at the risk of my life, to lii-tter 
• condition of the people of the Norlh-West. I have never had any j)ay. It has always lieon 
iny ho])e to hax-a fair li\ intone di.y. It will be for you to pronounce. Jf yii say I was rij/ht, 
you can conscientiously acij|Uit n.e, as I lio]^- tliii>uj.di tin- liilp of (iixl, you will. ■ You 
will console those who hiivr. been fifteen years around nu-, only jBirtaking in iny suH'er- 
ings : what you v.i',1 do in justice to me, iilju.stice to niy family, injustice to my friendu, 
in jWsfice to the North-Wesst, will be rendered a huuilred times to you in this world, 
and to Use a sacred c.vjires^ion, life everhisting in the other. L 

I tliank your Honors for the favour you have liranted me in s]ieakinL:, I lliank ynu fjr 
the attention you have given me, (ientlemen of the Juiy, anri I thank th<i>e wlio have h<ul 
the kindness to encourage iny imperfect way of sjK-aking tlie English language lij 
their good attention. I jiut my spi-i ch under ihe )irotcction of my (irnl. my Saviour, hit 
is tlu' only one who can make it effective, it is possible it should beiome eliiclive as it! 
is proj>osed to good men, to good peo|>le, aiid to i;(i(pd ladies also ' 

Mr. Hobinson for the pro.iecution addre.-ses the jury and aflcr him the pre->idin;; 
Judge di-liveis his charge. 

On the jury returninj(,\ifler having retired to consider their verdict, tlie clerk of 
the Court asked: (ientlemen, are you agreed upon your verdict ? ITowsayyou? Is the 
prisunei- guilty or not guiltv .' 

The jury find the prisoner guilty. 

Clkkk. — (gentlemen ojf the Jury, hearken to your verdict, as the Court records it : 
You lind t!ie prisoner, Louis Kiel, guilty, so.say you all. 

The Jury answered : <iuilty. • 

A JirKtiR. — Your Hc^nor, I have been asked by my brother-jurors to n^comniend 
' the jH'isoner to the mercy pt the Crown. 

.Mr. .IfSTiCK HH^ll.\lflJSOy.--l mtiy say in answer to yon that the reconnnendation 
which you have given, will be forwarded in proper manner to tlie proper authorities 

. Mr. lloniNSOX. — iJo Your Honors propose to pass .sentence now. I believe the proper 
coursi' is t > ask the .sentence of the Court ujion the prisom^r. 

Mr. JfSTlCE R!cri.\ltl)S0N. — Louis Kiel, have you anything to say why the sentence 
of the Coui't should not Id prououncinl u[)on you, for the otlence of wliich you liave been 
found guilty. 

.Phisoxeh. — Yes, Your Honor. 

Mr. firzPATKicK. — Uefore tliB aeeused answers or makes any remarks as suggested 



NT 






155 

•>_v Your Honor, I would lifjj loave simiily to ask Your Honor to kindly note the olijectiou 
wliioli I liavf already taken to the jurisdiction of the Court. 

Mr. JrsTif'E' Rkmlviiksox. — It is noted, Mr Fitzpatrick. You understand of course 
^vlly 1 cannot ruh^ upon it. 

-M. FlTZH.MltlCK. — It is simply so as ta reserve any recourse 'the law niny allow here- 
after. 

P'lIKONKH. fan I spoak now ? " .,■ • ' . , 

Mr. JfSTICK KlCll.\lcl>sos-.--0]i yes. . 

Plil.-oxKlt. — Your Honf«r, (ientlenien of tliejury . . . . 

hlv. JrsriCK Hi<'il.\l!l)so.N. — Tlere is no jury now, they are disclmrged.' 

T'kisoNKK. — Well, tliey have pas.sed away l«efore nie. _ 

Mr. .risTlcK Hlcu.MiKsoN — Yes, they liave passed away. 

'PuisoNEii. — Hut at the .same time, I oflsider them yet still there, still in their s^a'ts. 
Th'<'<)urt lias done the work fi^r me, and although at first ap|iearance it seems to l.e 
ji_' linst me, I am so conti.h-nt in the iilea which 1 ]y\Vf h:ul the honor to exiiress yesterday, 
th it I think it is for ({ood and not for my loss. Up to this moment, 1 ha\e lieen con- 
sidfi'ed hy a <-ertain party as insane, hy .mother party as a criminals hy anothir party as 
a iji'iii with wlr>m it was dou'itjfjil whether to have any intercourse. So tlieiie was 
hostility and there w,is e.intempt, and tliere was avoidance To-day, l>y the verdict of the 
('olirt, one of thesi- three situations has disapiieared. 

I sujipose that after ha» ini; Ti?hji condemninl, I will cease to \n' called a fool, and. 
for me it is a i.'!eat advantajre. I coniider it as a ijreat advantage. If I have a Ini.sgion, I 
sail •• If" fdi ,' ' sake of those who doulit, liut for my part if means " Since, " .since I 
liave a mi.s.sion, 1 i-annot fullil my mission a.s lonj; as I am looked upon as an insane 
l'«/ln'j — liumaiiHH;nii.', at thi> moment that I lie-in, to ascend that scale, I l>e<rin to svjcceed. ' 

I \<>\l ha\e askTH^iiK', ^ our Honor, if I hid anythini,' to say why my .senteijA' ^houl<l 
n >i lie passed. Yes, it is on that point |r.irlicular]v mv attention is directed. Kefore sayiiii; 
a lything aliout il, I wish to take notice that ii there has 'e; er lieen any contradiction in 
niy life, it is at this moment, and du I ajipiar excited? Am 1 verv irritalile ? .('an 1 
f mtrol my.M'lf; And it is just on reliijion and on politics, and 1 am oontradicte<l 
at this moment on politics, and the .-.mile that conies to my face is not an act 
<>l' my will, so mucli it comes naturally, from the satisfaction that I prove that 
i experience secinj; one fif my ditliculties di.sa]ppearinj;. Should 1 lie executeil, at least if 
I were f^oiiij; to lie executed, I would siot he executed as an insane man, it would he a. 
^ real consolation for my mother, for my wife, for my children, for my hrothers, for iny 
r I'.atives, e\en for my protectors, for my countrymen. I thank tlie gentlemen >vho were 
fT'liiposing the Jury for liav ing recommended me to the clemency of the Court. When I 
ekpre.ss the great hoiie that I liave just cvjiiessed to you,' I don't' express it without 

ound, mv hopes are reasoiialile, and since they are recommended, since the recommend- 
al|ion of the Jury to theCrown is for clemency. It would he ea.sy for me. vour Hrnors. to 
ke an incendiary protest, and take the three rea,sons which have tieen reasoiialih' ]iut 

rward hy my good lawyers and learned lawyers, ahout the .Jury, aliout their .selectioy. 
Ut the one who selected them, and aliout the competencv of the I'miit, lait why sliould 

do it, since the Court has undertaken to prove that I am a reasonalde man i Must not 

take advantaije of the situation to show that they are liLrh^and that I am reasonalde, 
d yesterday, when 1 sai(l liy repeiitinj.' the evidence which has lieen tjiven a>.'ain.st jne, 
len 1 said in comlusion that you had a decent projihet, I have ju.st to-tlay the great 
portiiniiy of proving it is so, he.sides clearing me of the stain of insanity, clearing luy 

,reer of tlie stain of insanity. I think the verdict that has heen given against me is a' 

i.of that I am more than ordinary myself, liut that the circumstances and the help-that 
iriven is more than ordinary, are more than ordinary, and although I consider myself , 

ilv as others, vet liv the will ((f <.io<l, \i\ his Providence, hy the circumstances which hsTe 



1.33 .. ' 

siiiToundeil me for fifteen years, [ tliink that I liave been called to do soniethinf,' which at 
least in the X irlh-West nobody has done yet, and in some way I tliink that to a certain 
number ^it peojile tlie venlict against me to day is a proof that may be [ am a |irophet, 
may be Riel is a prophet. He suHers for it. Now, I have been huutecl as an elk foi- titieu 
yeai-s. David has been .seventeen, I think. I would have to be about two years still ; if 
the misfortunes jthat I have ha<l to j,'o throu;;h were to be as long as tho.se of the old 
David, I wouUl have two years still, but I hope it will cimie .sooner. 

I. have two reasons why I woulil ask that sentence should not be passecl upon me, 
aj^ainst me. !i'ou will excuse nie, you know my dlthculty in speakint; Kniflish, and I 
have had no time to prepare. Your Honor, . . . Even had I prepared anythini,' it would 
have IWn imperfect enoiuj;h, and I have not prei>ared, and I wish you would oxiuse, 
what I have to .say, the way which I will 1m- able, perha|)s, to express it. 

Q. The trouldes of the Saskatchewan are no^ to be taken as an isolated fai-t. Tlicy 
are tlie I'e^ult of Hffeen years war. The lu-ad of that dilliculty lies in the diHiciUty of 
Red Itiver. The trouliles of the Red River were called the trouldes of the Xorth-West, 
and I Would like to know if the troubles of the Saskatchewan have not the name to-day 
ol' beini; the troubles of tin; North- West ,' So the troubl6s,of IHQO, beini; the troubles (if 
the Xorth-West and the troubles of iSSo being still the troubles of the XortIi-West,\ the 
suggestion comes naturally to the mind of the observer if it is a continuation ofltlie 
troubles <»f the Xorth-West, if the troubles of ISS.") mv ,i coniinu.ition of the troubleli of 
l^iOO. Or if they aiB two ti'oubles entirely (liH'ereiit, A say they are not. Canada, ,no, 
I ought not to .say Canada, bec.uise it was a L^'rtain uiinilier of imjividuals, perhaps se/.eu 
or eiudit lutndired that cm have passed for Canada, but tli^cam,e to Red River, juid 
they wanted to take possession of the country viithout consulting the iieo|)le. Tni 
was the Half breed people There were a c-rtain nunibei 
population, but the great majoiiry were Half-breed:^ 

We tool: up arms agiiinst the invaders from the Kast without knowing them T 
were -SO far ajiiirt from ua, on the other side of the Lakes, that it caiumt lie said that 



iber of white pioneers among! the 



ley 
we 



w 
Wh( 



did nut know them. They came wi'liout iiotilica' i\in. 



had any- hatr.-d against thei 

Thej^auie boldly. We said : Who are they S. They slid: We are the |iossessoTs of t 
couiftiy. Well, knbwing-that it was not true, we (lone again.st.tho.se parties coming fro 
tlie East what we used t<j do against the Indians from the South and from tht; \\'es 



when they would invaile 
■^lon't mean to s-ay that 
State:, shi>ulil interfere, 



us. Public opinion i;i the States helped us a great deal.. 

it is needed to obtain justice on this side of the line that tl 
but at that time, as there was no telegraph communication 
between the Eastern Provinces and the Xurth-West, no r.iilroad, and as the natural way 
of going to Canada was throi^gh the I'niteil States, naturally all the rumor.s, all the 
new-*' had ,to pa.ss by the States, and on their pas.sag/' they had to meet rtie remarHs 
and observations of the American ]ieople. Tin;^ American people were favorable to us ; 
besides, the Opposition in (^uiada done the same thing and said to the (lOvernmei- i 
Well, why ilid you go into the Xorth-West without consulting the [leople .' We te k 
up arms, us I stated, and we made huiidiedsof prisoners, and we negotiated. A trea [y 
was iiia<le That treaty was made by a delegation of both |iarties. Whether you considier 
the organization of the Red River peo|)le at that time as a Provisional (iovernment or iiipt, 
the fact is tli^t we were recogni/ed as a body, tribal, if you like to call it so, as a social 
iKxiy, with whom the Canadian (Iovernment treate<l. Did they treat with thiMU as tliJ^y 
treat with Indians ? ^i will l>e for them to siy that they did not. Since Sir John .h.. 
Macdonald and the late Sir (ieorge Cartier were delegated by the Dominion Covernnielit 
to meet our delegates, delegates who had lieen appointed by me, the President, (that is tl 
name tlrnt was given to me by the Council,) the President of that Council, and our delegat f!S 
had been invited three times, tirst by Donald A. Smith, a member of the Privy Cnunail 
at that tiine ; second, by the Reverend Mr. Thibault, the late Reverend Mr. Tliibau 
third, by Archbishop Tache, who had been called from Rome for the purpose of pacifyii 
the North- West. When those three delegates had invited us to .send delegates 
thought tint it was safe to send delegates, and I appointed the Reverend Father Richo ;, 
now curate of Saint Norbert, in Manitoba; I appointed the lute Judge Illack, who died i 



l.')7 



iSrotliUul ; I ap])ointf'(l Alfred H Scott, lie is dead also, and thesf three delegates started, 
vitli ourliill of ri;,dits of twent}' conditions, to go and juit it liefore the Canadian Govern- 
ment, and when our delegates came to Ottawa the Government wanted to treat tlieni 
as Indians, I su])]M)se. 

Father I'itchot-sjaid if you don't give me in writing mv acknowledgement as a 
delegate, I will go liack and you will go with your bayonets to the North-West — acknow- 
ledge my status — I am invited, I come and what was tin- answer ? Our delegates had lieen 
invited three times. How were they received in Canada ? They were arreste<l. To shrrw 
exactly what is the right of nations, they were arrested. They had not a formal trial, l.ut 
the fact remains that they were arrested, and the jirote.st of IJev. Fatlier Ritchot is still 
in the document. However, there was a treaty. .Sir John A. Macdonald was delei;ate<l, 
the late Sir George Cart ier was delegated to treat with the peojile, with those three 
delegates, now how were they acknowiedj^ed ' AVeiv they acknowledged as delegates of 
Kiel; Oh! no, they were acknowleilged as the delegates of the XorthAVest. The late 
Mr. (fowe, in his acknowledgement of the delegates, and in notifying them vho hatl 
lieenllelegated hy the Canadian (iovernment to treat wkh them, told them that they 
vere acknowledged as the delegates of the Xorth-West. Then it was the cause of the 
Noi-tjli-West that they re[iresented. It is acknowledged l>y the Canadian < iovernment l>v 
that, very .same fact that fifteen years ago, the treaty of whick 1 am sjieaking wa.s 
the freiity of the North- West —of the delegates of tlie Nortli-We.st, and if l>y trying to 
.say that it was the dele;;ates of the Ntirih West they wanted to avoiil the fact that I 
was no lieing at all, the whole world know^ that it is not so, they cannot a\iiid me, and 
Sir John A. .Maidonald himself, in the rejmrt of the committee of in(|uiry aliout tho.se 
xer\ same trouliles, the committee which sat in 1.S74, Sir John A. ^lacdonald said : •• 1 
tliiiik we ackiiowledi^'e Riel in his status of a (iovernor.' What was that treaty .' Was it 
an I udian all'air ? If it had Imimi an Indian aliair, .Manitol)a would not have l>een as it is, 
won Id not lit^ as it is. We had the Manitol.a Act. there was an agreement lietweeil the 
t viM dclei;ate.s how the whole NorthWcst interest would he considered, and Imw the 
Can idian (iovernment woulil treat with the North-West, and th-Mi liavini; settled all the 
mat Icr of |iriin-i]ile, tho.se very ]irinci|iles, the agreement was made those very iirinci]ile.s 
wolid<l he inaugurated ii^ Manitoba first. There was a Province erected with respoiLsilile 



(i 

to 

COl 



rniMent The lands they were kept liy the Uominion. As the Half-hreeil pt-ople 
I'e till' majority of Manitoba, as at their stage of civilization they were not sU]iposed 



lie able to aibuihl.ster tlieir lamls, wi 
aession to let thi*m j;o, not brcaus 



H,'e ( 
tliouj.'lit that, at that time, it was a reaM>nalile 
we were willing; to let tlieni i,'o. but beiause it 
f the lands. 



.sei mecl iniiiracticable to ha\e the administration of the lands. Still one of the conditiiMis 

■, tlur the jieople of the North-Wet wanted the administration of their lands. Tlie 

If-breeils had a million and the land ijrant of l,40(J,0ilO acres owned ab.ait 

0(1.001), if I mistake not, which is abnut 1-7 of the land of Manitolia. Yuu will M-e 

oi ii.Mne i)f my insanity and of my foreiiju policy. 1-7 of the laud w,is Lrranted to the 

[lie, to the llalf-llreell^ of Manitoba, Hngli.sh and Flench, Protestant and Catholic. 

re was no distinction whatever, but in the subdivi^bion, in the ailotnieiit of those lands 

t ween the I [alt luceds of .Manitoba, it came that they had L' -10 acre.s of land. Now the 

adian (iovernment .say, that we will give to the Half-breeds fif the North- West, :.'40 

If I was insane I would say yes, but as 1 have had, thank (iod, all the tiiin*, the 

cienciousiiess that I had a certain Vlegree of reason, I have made u]i my mind to 

o use of it anil to say that 1-7 of tlie lauds in ^lanitoba, as tlie inauiiuration ci a 

ciple ill the North- West, had to bring to tlie Half-breeds of the' NorihWest. at 

t as soon as possible, the guarantee for the future that a sc\eiith of the lands 

al.so be give.i to them. And .seeing and'yoiuself amlerstandiut; Imw it is illllicult lor 

all jiopula; ion as the Half-breed jiopiil iiiiin to have their \oice heard, 1 said what 

iigs to us ouuht to be ours < >ur right to the North- West i.s ackiunvledged. our ci>- 

rietorshij) with the Indi.ms is acknowledLTed, since one-seventh of the lanils is i:i\eii 

but we lia\i' not the niea'ns to be heard, what will we do ! I said to some of my friends : 

here is no other way, we will make the jieople who ha\n» no country undtir>t md tint 

lave a countrv here which we have ceded on condition, we want the seventh of tlj© 



wa 
l\; 

!',•" 
tin 

!«■' 

Th 

1 

Ca 

acr 

con 

ma 

pri 

leju 

w 



i 



158 



land, and if the barj^ain i$ not kept, it is null and void, and we havn no ri;^lit to ivti-cit 
ajjiiin, and if we cannot have our seventh of tlie lands from Canada, we will ask the 
people of tlie States, the Italians to come and help us as inimi^'raiits, the Irish, I u ill 
count tliem. 

Xow, it is my turn I thank you. I count them and I will show you if I mad(?an insane 

enum-ration of the parties. Isay, we will invite the Ittilians of the States, the Iri^h <>{ 

the States, the I$a variants of the States, Poles of the States, l>elij,'ians of tin' Slates and if 

they come and help us here to lia-.e the 7th, we will L'ive tiieni (jaeh ;f 7th and to show 

tint we are not fanatics, that we are not partis ms, tliaf we do not wish oidy for the t 'a- 

tholii's, but that we havea consiileration for those who are not Catholics, I said, we will 

invite the Danes. We will in\it.e the Swedes who are numerous in tiie ;>tates, and 

the Norwegians to come aiound, anil as there are Indijins and Half-l)reeds in Hritish Co- 

lijnibia and as ISritish Cohnnbia is a part of the innnense N irth-We.st, we said not fmly 

for ourselves but speakin;^ of our cliildreii we will make tin; proposition that if they lielp 

us to have tur 7th on the two sides of the 11 ocky Mountains they will each liave a sev<Mith, 

and if the J'W.s tt'ill heip/i?>)iinj on the condition that tJK-y ackno«le;l;,'e Jesus-Chri.*t as 

the Son of (ioi) and the only Sa\ lour of iiuinan kintl, if tin y help us with their moneu wi 

will c'ive them one .seventh, and I saiil also, if the principle of i^ivin;; one seventh of [the 

lands is good ill the Xorth-WVst, if the principle of jiiviin^one seventh of the lands liAth 

iliill-breed.s iu the North West is ),'Ood, it ouu'ht to lie ^roud in the Ivist also, an<l 1 saill if 

it is not possible that oii^ views should be heard, we will, I, a.s an american citizrlj. I 

will invite the] (Jermaus [)f the States and 1 will say if you ever liave an opportuniiyl (■! 

i-rti.ssinji th'! liilf^in the East do it and help the Indians and tlie Half-breeds of tlie la<sl 

to have a revi-inle ei|Unal('at t>) abofit one ?,eviMitli. And what v.ould be llie reward of \Ui 

(iermans. The.reward of the (iermans v.ouid be if tli.'y were successful to take a j^mi 

the country, and make a new (iennan Indian world somewhere in Ib'itish North Amei' 

Hut that is the last reBorr,, and if I iiad not had ..i verdict of ,i;uilt ii;^,iinst me I 

liave never said it. Yestenlay it was just tliose ihincs that J have avoided tosay whe 

Slid I. have a reason not to mention tliem, and wlicn 1 slid as one of the witne.sses s 

that my iiroclaniation v.ai in Peniliina, I think I am rii,dit becau.se r)f this trial ; yo 

that my pretentions is that I can .speak a little of the future events, my trial lia.s broug 

out the c|U.istioii of the .st'venth and although no one has e.\plaiiiid the thin:.»s as I 

now still there i.s- enouiiU .s,iid about the sevenths of the lands and the division of t! 

lainla into sevi'iiths, seveii nationalities, whih' it ouifht to have been .said betuciMi ti 

nationaiiti>'s, t!|iat by teiei;)-apli to-day niy jiroclama'iou is in Pembina truly and the Stjn 

have my ideas! They have my ideas. The Fenian element, gentlemen, without any tain,'iii 

object have criissed the lines several times for the only .sake of what many ha\e imII- 

revenj;e,but mjw that Kiel svhose name is some what prominent for lifteen years is knnwftn 

to be iu his troilbles for life and death for himself and liis natitionality, ikc.v that my tvl. 

gives me a certain increase of cidebrity, now that tho.se c[ue.-,tions are ajipearing before tl 

public now that! there is a land league in the States, that the very .same element which po>>i 

se.s Feiiiaiiism IS still thereiand ipiiet because they have no plan, because they lia\e no id 

around which l|o gather tHieir nuinber.s and when they catch at it do you think that ihi 

will smile ? .Viijd Gabriel Dumont on the other sidi: of the line, is that (fabriel Dumont in 

iiv('. ; 1 believfj not Ho is tryiiii^ to save iiie from tliis bo.K This is no thrent I ir 

written it. I liave written a document of that kind and \n\t iu in the hands of Capt 

Dean, three w«ck.s ago This is not an inspiration of the moment. I ha\ e tlu; right 

tliank t;o<l for the yireyision of what happens to day but there is another means. I doi 

wish that iiieaijs, these means. I don't wish tliem to call the people fioni the States 

this side ol the; line. No, I wish it only if there is no other po.ssibility. If there is no otliij 

resort, of cour.s*; that is my wisli. The last remedy although it may be e.\tleiiie is alwa 

a remedy and is always worth^ojnething to try it, but if there is Justice as I still liop( 

Oh ' here it seems to iiie I have beconij insane to hope still. 1 have .seen so many men 

my position and where are they ? But Lepine has liad a scafibld also in Manitoba, aijlul 

he \Vjis not executed. Why ? Because he was recommended to the clemency of tlie cour^ 

The idea of theirth I 1 have two hands, and I liave two sides on my head, and I have t\\^o 



ot 

•a. 

Ilhl 

I 

dd 

C.e 
It 



r 






he \- 



159 



countries. I am an Ariierican citizen and I have two countries. an<l I am taken here as a 
British subject. I don't almndnn my idea of t)ie 7th. 1 say l)ecause tiie other is an extreme 
and all e.xtreiiiity I don't wish for it till e.xtremities liave coiuf and I liave come to 
extremities just now, hut there are some Iiojies yet. For me, my heart is full of hojio hut 
my frieiid.s, I suppose that many of them think that 1 am },'niie. 

If t'anada is just with me, if Canada respects my life, my lilierty and my reputation, 

they will j^ive me all what they ha\e taken from me, and as I said yesterday, that 

immeii.se iidlueiice which my acts art^ f^atheriiij; for the last tifteen years and which as 

the power of steam contained in an engine will have its way, tlieil what will I do ; Jt 

will do that perhaps Kiel will go to the Dominion Ministry, and there instead of calliu" 

the parties from the States, he will hy means, constitutional means of the country, invito 

the same parties fiuiii Kuropi^ as emigration. Hut let it he well understood that as my rij^ht 

has lieen ackiiowlt'dj;ed as the coju-fiprietor of the soil with the Indians, I want to assert 

that right. It is coiistitutionnally acknowledged in the Manitoiia Act hy the;51st clau.se of 

€t Act and it does not say to extinguish the Indian title, it says two words, e.vtinguish- 

inj{aiid 1,4IIU,0(IU acres of land. Two words. .\n(l as each child of the liall-lireeds t;ets l-7th, 

naturally I am at lea.it entitle;! to the .same. It is why I spokeof the 7th. Foi; the Indians, 

not of the lands hut of the revenue as it iiicri'ases. ISut someliody w ill say on what j.'rouiid 

will you !i>k l-7tli, of the lands ? Oovoii own the lauds 1 In Ein;land,iii Fraiilce, the French 

and the Fnglisli ha\ e laud, the first who were in Ii^iiijIaiK^, they were the owners of the .soil 

ailil they transmitted togeneratious Now hy the .soil they lia\e had their start as a natifii. 

Who starts the nalioiis ( The very same one who cif ates them, (lod. tiod is the master of 

tlie uniyef.se, our ]ilanet is his land, and the nations, the tiihes, are memlieis (.f Ids family, 

a id as a good Father he gives a portion (pf his lauds to that nation, to that trdie, to 

e eryone, that is his lieritai;e, thai, is his share of the inheritance, of the "people, or nation, 

I ■ trihe. NKjw here isa nation, strong as it may he, it has had his iiiheritan.e from 

( od, when they liave ciowded their country hecause they have no room to stay at home, 

i does not give tlieni the right to come and take the share of the small trihe hesides 

t lem, when they come they ought to say. Well my little sister, tlie Cree trihe, yy-ii have a 

J eat territory, Imt that territory has heeii given to you as our own land has \n< i\ 

riven to our fathers in Knglaml, or in France, and of course you cannot e.\ist wiijioiit 

laving that spot of land. This is the principle. God cannot cieate a trihe without 

<icating it, we are not hirds, we have to walk on tlie ground, and that ground is en- 

■iilied with many things wliich hesides its own value increases its value in anotlu'r 

;i;auiier, and when we culti\ute it, we still increase that \alue. Well, on what principle. 

an it he that the (-'anadian Government have given the 7th to the' Halfhieeds in 

.Manitoha f I say it must lie on this ground, civilization has the meiyjs of improving 

ife that Indians or Half -hreeds have not, so that when they conui--lu our savaije 

•ountr\-, in our uncultivated land, they come and help us with their ci\iliziiti(in hut- we 

lelp tlelii with our land.s, .so the question comes, your land, you C'lee or jou Half hreed, 

our land is worth to day l-7th, of what it will he when civilization will have opened it. 

mr country unopened is worth to you only l-7th of what it will he when opened. 

1 think it is a fair share to acknowledge the genius of civilisation to .such an e.\t"nt 
s to give when I have seven jiairs of sficks, si.\ to keep one. They made tlie treaty with 
As they made the treaty, 1 say they had to ohserve it and did tliey ohserve the treaty ! 
<o, there was a (juestion of amm^sty and when the treaty was made, one of the ■jUestions 
that liefoie tlie Canadian go\ eminent would send a Governor int.i Manitoha an iiiijie- 
lial amnesty should he proclaimed so as to hlot out all the dilHculties of th.- jiiist. Instead of 
roclaimiiig a general amnesty hefore the arrival of the Governer, which took place the 
Ind of Sepfemher 1N7U, the amnesty was proclaimed the lioth .\pril ^'i. So I siilieied 
l>r rive vears unprotected. Hesides I was expelled from tlie House tw icy, I wa.s,tliey .say.out- 
kwi d t.ut as I was husv as a iiiemher in the Fast and that the trial was the West I could not 
y in two plates and they »<iy that I was outlawed, hut no notitication was sent to my house 
ken >>* any priM-itnlings of the court. They say that I was outlawed and when the amnesty 
»me ti e years after the time it should have come, 1 was hanished for five years and 
ep.iie u •privwl of his jxilitical rights for ever. Why? Because he had given political rights 



^ 



160 



V 



to Manitoba. Is that alt? No. Did the amnesty come the Imperial Governement ? Not 
at all. It came from our sister colony in the East, and unnd you to make a 
miracle of it, I .say the one lieing areat and Riel being small, I will f;;o on the other 
side, and I am banished. It is a wonder, I did not take and go to ilexico. Natu- 
rally I went to tlie States. Amnesty was given l)y the Secretary of State at Ottawa, the 
party wijo treated with us. That is no amnesty. It is an insult to me, it lias alwajs been an 
inijult to me. I said in Manitoba two years ago it was an insult and I considered it as such. 
Uut are tlieiV pr<iofs tliat an iin]ierial amnesty lias been promised ? Yes many, Archbisliop 
Tacht^, tlie delegate who liad been called, the pi'elate who has been caUed from Itome, to come 
and pacify tlie Xorth-West received a commission to make, to accoinplisli that paciticatiou 
and in !,'eueral terms was written his commission, and when he came to tlie North-We.st 
before I send deb-gates lie said : I will give you my word of lioiipr as a deb'gati", tliat 
tliere will lie an Imperial amnesty, not because I can promise it on my own responsiliility 
but because it lias been guaranteed toi' me by the representatives of tlie Crown, and flie 
Ministers themselves, the Ministers of the Crown. Instead of an imperial amnesty cai'.'5 
the amnesty of wliich I spoke, and, besides, an amnesty which came live years too late, and 
which took the trouble of banishing me for live years more. 

Mr. Justice Ricuardson. Is tliat all ? 



PlusoxEH. No. Excuse me if I feel 
be kind enough to, — But the last clause 
the Nortli-West 



weak and if I stop, at times, I wish you woulil 
» of the Manitoba Act speaks also a little (li 
ry Government will be put into tiie NortlJ- 



speak.s that a temporary tiovernment will be put 
"West until a certain timej not more than live year.s. And; gentlemen, the temjiorarv 
<TOi"ernment, hoiv long has it lasted now,' How long has it existed now? For tifteeji 
years and it will be temporary yet. It is against the Manitoba Act, it is againsjt 
the treaty of tiie North-West, that this North-West Council should ciuitinue to 1^ 
ill existi'ncei aiJd against the sjiirit of the understanding. Have I anvthing tii 
say against the gentlfiiien who conij>o.se the North-West Council '/TTot at all, nut moi4< 
than I had to say yesterday agaiii.^ the jury and to say against the oliicials (jf this Couix 
■\vliom I respect all, but I spt-ak of the institutions. No, I speak of the institutionsi 
of the NorthWcpt, the Mauitolia treaty has not been fulfilled, neither in icuard to me, 
.iif-ither in regard to Lejiine. Besides the ].opulation of the Half-lnceds who w<'re 
in the tri>ubles of the North West, in Manitoba, iu liS70, and who June been found in 
tlie troubles of the North We it, whit right had ihey to be there, liave they not received 
theintwo hundivd and fortjf acres I suppose the Half breeds in Manitolia, in 1.S70, did 
ijot tight for two huiulred aiiil forty acres of laud, but it is to be understood that there 
were two societies who treated togetlier. One was small, but in it.s smalliiess it had its 
riglits. The Other was gre:i|t, but in its greatne.ss it hud no greater rights tliaii the rights 
of the small, because the light is the same for every one, and when tiiey began by 
treating the leaders of that small community as l)aiidits, as outlaws, leaving then without' 
protection, they '■ ■••' ' ''■•'■ -'- "" ■ i^ l- . .• . i .. ., 



they (lisorg.iiiizi'd tint community. The right of nations wanted that the 

treat}- of Manitoba sh.dild U; fulfilled tov.anls (.he lit;tle community of Red River, in the 

same condition that they w(iie when they treated, that is the light of nations, and when 

tlie treaty would have been fulfilled towiirds the small community in the same state us it 

.as when she treated, wlieiij the obligati.iiis would have been fullilled, and the Half-breeda 

light have goni; to the North West, the Saskatchewiin and have no right to call for any 

ther tbiuL's for themselves, ! although they had tln^ right to lielj) their neighbours, if they 

hatif 



liave been fulfilled towiirds the small community in tin 
was when she treated, wlienj the obligati.iiis would have been fullilled, an< 
in' 
ot 

thought that they were in a| bad fix, because charity isjalways charity. Now I .sav tl 
tlie peojile of ^Manitoba lia\ie not been satisfied, nor the leaders nor the jieople, because 
' during tho.se live years which elapsed between 1870 and 1875, there were laws made, and 
those h.ws tliey embraced tlje j/, "pie, the Half-bi , ed peojjle, and because they hiui not tlieii 
iight.s, because the leaders wtre always threatens. i in th-ir existence. The people tliem.selvt 
lid not feel any .se<;urity, aifd they so^d their lands, be ause they thought they woul 

ands, tiicy s.ilj i.icir lands bej.nise they saw that they Uiv^ m 



i.ever get, first, that 7tli of 

liroteotioii, and they went Eist. What have they received in receiving the :.'40 

Lave received iMO acres of 1 



they ha^ nj 
teres ; TI»^\| 



iiid and as matter offact I can prove that by circunistancei 



IGl 



iimiiy, iiiif Iiiilf (if tlieiii, sold for one Imlf of tht^ price •S-'^O or S-tO, sfiO or ^2"). And to show 
tlu- stiito ill wliiili tln'V Imvc lieeii kejit, tliose who coinf from the Ke<l River and the 
Iliilf lirccds of Red River, who were in the Red River trouble of lf<70, appeared to be a 
wonder, of e;;otisni and of unreasonableness, because they ap|)eared to be in the troubles 
of i!Sf>.'), which are the continuation of the trouliles of Red River. 

The amnesty has not lieen given by the right parties. Amnesty lias not bern given 

to Lepine, one of the lea<lers who was then as Duniont is to day anil myself.' 1 was 

allowed to come back into the country when ten years after I would be completely deprivetl 

of th(^ cliHiices wliich I liad in 1S70 to do .sontething for my people iuid for myself and for 

<MiiigVati(in, so as to cut down my influence forever. It is why I did not come at tliat 

time, and 1 thoui;ht that 1 wimld never come to the country. I>i<l 1 take my American 

papers ? put my papers of americjin naturalization during the time of my five years bani.sh- • 

mont? No, I did not want to jjive to the States a citizen of banishment, but wlien my ba- 

ydshmeut had e.\|«ii-ed when au'otticer at ISattleford somewhere on this side of the line in 

I'leiiton invited me to come to the North West, I said ; Xo, 1 will i^o to an American Court 

will declare my intention now that^l am free, to go back and choose another land, it 

[•ored my heart to say tha,t kind of adieu to my mother, to my brothers, to my 

sisters, to my friends, to mi' contrymcn to my nati\'e land, but 1 felt that coming 

l)a<-k to this country, I coidd kiot re-enter it without protesting against all the injustice 

("hich 1 had been sullering aiid in so doing it was rem^wing a ^trujigle which I had not 

■n able to continue, and as souiul man as I thought 1 was I thought it better to l>egin 

la <-areer on the other side of the line. In Manitoba is that all about the anniesty ? No. 

[.My share of the 1.400,000 nivfs of land liavt: I received it? Xo, 1 have not received it. 

.Mv fiiend.s, my mother have applie<l to have it, N'o. ('ould not e\ery «nieelse apply for 

theirs.' Father, mother would apply for their sons, and.that was all right, but for my mother 

I to apply for me, it v. as not. I did not get it. Last year, there was a ])ronf here in the bo.\ not 

long aj^o, that when I asked an iiidenndty I was refused. Was that indemnity basetl on a 

fancy .' I wanteil my lands in .Manitoba to be jiaid. liesides when they treated, the treatv 

was comjjleted on ."list May lS7U, it was agreed toon tin; '.Mth June and Sir(!eo. ('artier had 

said : " Let liiel govern the countiy until the troopi get there." And from the L' ttli June ' 

to the L':ird August I go\erned the country intact. .Vndwhat was the ri^ward for it ? \\ lieu 

the glorious general Wolseley came, he ri'Waided me in saying Itii I s banditti has taken 

tlight, anil he wanted to come during the night at niiilniglit .io as to have a chance to 

raisi'a row in Fort (iarryand to ha\ e the i,dory to call lor in the m jrniug, but liea\ en was 

against him then. It rained so much that he coidd not get tlu're duriiii; the ni<;ht and 

he hail to come at ten o'clock next niorniiig, he entered one door of Ft. (iarry while I, 

left the other, I kept in sight of liiin, I was small 1 did not want to be in his road, but as 

I know tlirit he had good eyes I say I will keep at a distance where 1 can be seen, and if 

he wants to have me lie will come, a (ieiieral knows where his enni^niy is, ought to know 

a<i(l 1 ke|it about ;100 yards alieail of him. While he was saying that liiei's banditti had 

taken lliglit, Iviel was very near. That has been my reward. Wlen i speak of an'indemnity 

QL.-^.'t."),<ii|tl to call for something to comjilete tlie .■r'10U,(H)0, 1 ilont believe that I am 

! e4ai;eiatini,' your Honor. In l!S71 the Fenians caiiie in I'embina. .Major Irvine, one • it the 

\Vitnesses, I was introduced to him. -Vnd when 1 brought to the tioM-rnment -.'>U men, 

I (lOMMiior Archibald was there anxious to have my help because he knew irhat we Were the 

[door to Manitoba, and he .said as thy i|iiestion of amnesty came,. he said : •■ Jf Riel comes 

[forward, we will piotect him, " pour la circoiistaiice actuelle,' we will protect liim,as lonjf 

las we need him. we will protect him, but as soon as we dont want him, as soon as we won't 

Iiieed him, we want him to fall back in the same position as he is to day . And that an.vwer 

Iliad been brought because it had been represented that while I would be helping tlie 

jOovernment the parties would be trying to shoot me in the back ; ■" Pour hi circons- 

jtaiice act uelle'.t hey said, "we will protect him '. What reward have 1 had for that .•* The first 

reward that I had was that that took place in the tirst days of. Octolier lt!71 before the 

[year was ended. Of course they gave a chance to Riel to come out, a rebel liad a chance 

I to lie loyal then. .My friend, my glorious friend in Upper Canada, now the leader of 

I the opposition, Mr. Blake said : "We must prevent Riel from arriving.' When he was Minis- 

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ter in Upper Canada he. issued a proclaiuation of '8"), 000 for tlisse wlio would arrest 
Riel. Tliiit was my reward, my dowry. liut tlie (Janadiaii ( Jovernin^nt what rew.iid did 
they -.'ive me? In the next year tliere was j^oinj; to )je an election, 1H72. If Kiel remains 
in the eounti-y for the elections it will he trouhle and he has a ri<,dit to spi-ak, we have 
)i)ade a treaty with Iiim, We do not fulKl it, we promise liini anniesty, he is outlawed, we 
take his country and he lias no room even to sleep, he comes to our help lie ^'overns the 
country during two months, and the reward is that he is a handitti, he comis to the help 
of the (iovern'ment with two hundred and tity men, and the reward is five thousand 
dollars for his head. It is at that time that I tof)k the name of David, and I did not 
take it iif my.self, the honorahle Judge of the court of Manitolia, M. Duljuc to day, is th<' one 
who gave me the nami' of ])a\i(l. When 1 had to hide myself in the woods, and when he 
wanted t" write me under the name whi<-li would not he known, so that my letters could 
eome to me, and I may say that iii that way it is a legal name. From that |>oint nf view 
e\en, and I put in a parenthesis. Why ! I have a right, I think, as a souvenir of my fi'iiiuL 
in, Upper Canada, wlio caused tin- cir<umstanees, who brought me that name, to niak*^*^ 
something spe<ial aliout it, and, liesides, when the king of Judea was speaking of the pi-Jd 
lilic scr\ ices of David's, didn't he use to refer to him in that way. Yes he did and al 
homething .similar, I thought that it was only jiroper that I should t:\ke the name 
" Daviil ', liut it was suggested tome in a mighty manner, anrl I could not a\<iid it. 

The Canadian <>overninent said: ''Well. Riel will he in the elections here and he will 
have all the right with all tliose grievances to speak, and he will emiiarass the ( lovernnient.'f' 
JSo thev lalled upon my great jaotcctor Arcldiislifip Taclii', and they said ti> .Vrchljisho]" 
Taili.- I don't know what, hut in the month of Feliruary '7-, .Vichliishnp Tachc came U*- 
nie,and s lid : ''The authorities of Lowei- Canada want you to go on the other side of tlujiV 
lini- until the crisis is ])a.s.sed." '■ Well, I said, if the crisis was c(tncernin'.' nie only, it wouhPf' 
he my interest to go there, hut I am in a crisis, wliicli is the crisis of the peopli> of tln'U 
country, and as it concerns the ])ul)lic hesides me I will speak to the puhlic,as the puhlitr' 
are speaking to uie." I'ut the .Vrchln.-^hop ga\ e .such good reasons that although l¥' 
could not yield to the.se reasons, F came to a conclusion with hiui and I said: " .My Lord,!' 
you have titles to my acknowleilgcment which shall ne\c'r he hjotted out of my heart, ■ 
and altliciigh njy judgment in this matter altogether dilfers witli yours, I don't consider 
my judgment ahove yours, and what seems tnl me. rea.son ihle might he more rea.sonahle ; 
althougli I think my course of action rea.sonidjh', perhaps yours is more reasonahle." I 
said; "It you connnand uie as my Archhisho]) to go ami take on your shoulders the 
resj)oiisjliiiity of leaving my ))eople in the crisis, I will go, Itut let it he known that it 
^ is not my word, that I do it to please you, and only after you command me to do it — to 
sliow that in politics when I am contradicted, 1 can gi\e way.' 

And they ort'er me 10 pounds a month to stay on the other side of the line. 1 .said to 
"liis Lordshij); "I have a chance here in Manitohaand I want something." He asked me how 
much I wanted, "and I .said : "How long do you want me to st;iv away .' " '' Well, he said, 
perhaps a year.' "T tell you heforehand that I want to lie here during the elections." That is 
what I asserted ; •'! want lo lie here riuiingthe elections'. .\nd it was agrf^l that they would 
give ."^OO 'pounds: 400 iKumds to ]..i''iiiiie and 400 pounds to me : :iOO pounds to me |i«'r- 
.sqnnally, 300 jiounds for Le]iine ; 100 pounds for my family, 100 pounds for Lepine's' 
family, that makes ."^00 pounds. And how was it agned that I should receive that' 
money '. I said to his Lonlship: "The Camidian ( ioveiinneiit owe me money, they lihel me 
an<l even on the ipiesiion of lihel, they do it so cleirly that it docs not mean any tiial t 
come to judgment ; they ha\ e judgment and will they make \i.se of it ? They owe me some^ 
thing for my re[iutation that thi^y aliuse every day, hesides 1 have done work and tin 
have never ))ai<l me for it ; 1 will take that money as an account of what they will havt 
to ))ay me one tlay". It «as agri'i'd in that maimer, and the money was given lo me in thii 
cliHl>el of St. V'ital in the presence of Mr. I)uhuc. Judue now, and wheir -I did not l.nov 
at that time where the money came from and when the little sack of .lOt) |.oundsof gold 
was handed to me there on the tahle, 1 said to His Lordshi|i ; " .My Lord, ir the one wh 
wants nn-- to go away was here, and if I had to treat him as he is tryinji- lo treat me, tliij 
little, sack of gold ought logo to his head." That was m\ lust protest al that time. U 



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>'< 

.11-; 
\v 

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V 

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lieforc the election public ojiiiiion was so excited u;;aiii-it the one that had taken the res- 
ponsiliility of advisiiij,' my leaviiiij^hat he called lue hack, and diirinj; the election I was 
present. I was three nioie years. To-day I am rewarded for what 1 have done through 
the.se three years. Sir (!eor<;e C'artier, in 1872, ju.st in, that summer, was l)eaten in 
■Montreal — I speak of him not as a man of party, I sju'ak of him as a Canadian, as a 
public man — he was beaten by -Mr. J<-tte \<y llfOO nuijority, and they caiue 
to mi'. My eh^ction wius sure in Provenclier, 1 had l."i or I'l) men ajfainst me and they 
came to me; "Kiel, do you want to resi-^n your seat.'" "l have not it yet." "Oh, well, you are 
sure to ;;et it, allow Sir (ieortje Ktienne ('artier to be elected here ". Ami 1 said, ves, to 
• show that if I had at the time any inclination to become insane, when 1 was i-ontradicted 
in ])olitics. liut I^ower ( 'anada has more than paid me for tli(^ little consideration, <;reat 
was my consideration, but that little uiark, 1 consider it a little mai^ of , consideration, a 
little mark of a ;;reat consideration for them. 

The people of Manitoba hadn't their j;o\ eminent innuijurated at that time, fhevhad 
a sham ;{overnment, it was to bi' erected, to be inaui-urated after 1^71, after the 1st of 
•lanuaiy IK71, but we went on in 1S74 and it was not inauj;ura(ed, as lonj; as Kiel was 
there, with hi-> popularity. If tlii' proper institutions had been iiiauijurated Kiel would 
have come in tin- House, tlie l'ro\incial House and of course it was considered to be a 
(lama;;e. So to keep me baik they did not ;,'ive the peopltvtheir rii,'ht.s, when it was consti- 
tutionnally aj^reedthey shoidil have done. I strii,s;i,'led not only for myself, but l struy;irle(l 
for the rij,'hts, for the inau^'uration of the jirinciples of res[.onsible and ton.stitu- 
tional gov eiiuueiil in Afanitoba. That was consi(Iere<l about tlie time that 1 was banished. 
While I was in the Tnited States, was I very happy ? Yes, I was very happy to tind a 
refu;;e, but I have mi-t men w ho ha\ e come to me --eveictl times and say : "Here ! Look out ! 
Here is a man on the other side of the line and he is trvinij to have a revenj;e at you, 
wiien you i.'o water your horse." I!ecau.-.e they iiad left stains, as much as possibh-, on my 
name, 1 louUl not even water my hor.^e on the .Missouri, without bi'iiii,' ijuarded a;,'ainst 
those who wanted iiiy life, and it is an irony for me that I should be called |)a\id. Last 
year, when I was in\ ited instead of lomini,' to l4iis country, I eould with the [>l.in that 
has ap|ieii-ed to me, I could ha\ e'communicaled with the Keniu'n oiLCanization, 1 could 
haM- sent my ii. ok, I did not do it. and as a proof of it, while 1 ha\e no means at all to com- 
municate with my brother, yoii will see in .Manitolia lettcMs to my brother .biseph, where 
1 speak i<»J/fny b. lok, that I coold j;et any amount of money for that book, if I wished it to 
be published, but I thoULjht that there was a better chance on this side of the line. 
And what chance is it ' What I said, constitutionally speakini;, if Kiel succeeds that he 
shouhl one day, as a public man, invite emi;.'ration from ditt'ereiit parts of ditl'eieut 
countries of the world, and because the Xoi-th West is acknowledged to lie partly his own 
as a Half liri'eil of this population, and make bar;^ains for tliis North-West here with tlie- 
Canadian i,'o\ernnn<nt in such a way, so that when the Hni,'iish population has had a full 
anil reasonable .-.haie of this land, other nationalities with w litHii we are in sympathy should 
have also their share of it. When we i.'ave the lands of .Manitoba for one .sevenfh, we did not 
e.xplain. We )(a\e it to the Canadian < iovernment, but in i;i\ ini,' it to the Canadian ( iovern- 
ment it does not mean that we ija\e it —with all the respect that I have for the Kn'j;lish 
j)opulation -to the -ViiuloS i\on race. We did not ;,'ive it only to the .\ni;l<> Sa\on raie.There 
is the Irish in the Ivist and the French in the west, and their proportion in the Canadian 
jiovernnient oiiirht to receive a n-asonaiile proportion of this land which is boui,dit here, 
and it is hardly the same to ;,'ive to some Kiench Canadian^ in the North-West, and uoi'ie 
at all to the Irish, i don t speal> here to call the symp.itli(es, because 1 am .sentenced, I 
speak soiind .sense. I followed the line of natural and reasonable .syiiipalliie.s, but behind 
my tliou'.{lit, perhaps you would be inclined to believe that it is a way for me to try to 
Work against the Kmilisli. Xo, I don't. I believe that the Knijlisk constitution i^ an 
institution which has bc,-n perfected for the nations of the world, and while I speik of 
ha\ iiif^ in future, if not iluriii:; my lifetime, after it, of having dill'ereiit natioiialitie-, in the 
North-W est here, my ho]ie tliat they can succeed is that they will lia\e li.'ie aiiu'liu them 
the j,'real .Vpj^lo-.SaMin race, as amoiiL; the nations of Lurope. Twd thousand years a«;o, 
the Koinan p.-ople were the leading race ailil were teachiiiLf to tin; other nations uooil 



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;;<iv«>riiiiipiit", that is my opinion of tlie Anglo-Saxon lace. 1 am not insane enougli to 
re-^rt't the j;i'<'ut f^lory of th«-Anf{lo-Saxon race, (iod lias j^iven it to tliat race, and when 
(i<Kl j{i\t's .something to somelnjiiy, it is for a good jiurjiose and if (iod gave great 
glory to England, it is because he wanted the Anglo-Saxon race \to work for his own 
glorv, and 1 su()|>ose it is not tinished yet: tlie^ will continue. The ronian einjiire at the 
time of tiie decay, exi.sted four hundied yearsjstill as the King 

The Anglo-Saxon, the British Emjiira if It has gone to its highest point of 
glory may lie < ailed tlie king, liut it is .so great it will take many //JVimdred 
yeai-s and fully as many as 400 years to lo.sents prestige and iluring that time 1 lio|>o 
that this great North- West with Jiriti.sh injHuence will hy the immigration of which 
I speak. I'each good government. Hut will I show insanity in lioping tliat that plan will 
l>e fullille<l ; I will speak of the wish of my heart. I have lieen, in what is called, as.serted 
to be wrong to day, I have Ih'cii proved to be the leader, I hope that before long that 
Very same thing Which was said wrong will be known as good and then I will reiriaii " 
the leader of it and as tlie lea<ler of what ] am doing I say my heart will ne\er abandoi 
fhe idea of haxing a new island in the Xorth-West, by constitutioiuil means, in\iting ■''>■•' 
Irish of the other side of the sea t(j conu- and have a share here ; a , new Piilan<l in tin 
North-We.st, by the same way; a new Havaria, in tlie same way ; a new Italy in the sanu 
way. And on the other side in Manitoba and since .Manitoba has been erected it has ln'cn] 
increased since 1870, at least by "J,(J0l),O00 acres of land, now it is ',M1,()(M),0()U .say 
there i> about !<G, 000,000, acres of land to which the Half-breeds title has not been 
extingui.shed. Oneseventli gives 12,000,000, of tlio.se lands and I want Krcnch-( 'iina 
diaiis to <ome lind lielj) us there to-tlay, to-morrow I don t know when. 1 am called here to 
answer for my life to ha\e time that 1 should make my testimony. Anil on the other sidi 
of the mountain tlurejire Indians, as i have said, and Half-breeds and there is a beautiful 
island Vancouver and 1 think the llelgiaifc will Ih<^ liajipy there aaiil the .lews who an 
looking for a country for li^lJO years, the knowleil^'c of whicji the niitions have not Iieen 
able to Sttain yet, while they are rich and the funis of tinuiice. Perhajis will they hear 
my voice one day and on the oilier side of the iiioMirtains while tlie waves of the Pacific 
will chant sweet music for them to console their hearts for the mourning of 1.MO0 years, 
perhai)S will they say : He is the one thought of u.> in the whole Cree world and if they jielp 
ustliereun the other side between the great Pacific and the great Rockies to liaNc a share, 
the .lews from the States I No, what I wish is the natural coiir.se of immigralion that is 
what' 1 want. -My thougls are fur ]ieace. j)iiring tin (i() days that I have been at Jiutoche * 
1 told you yesterday that they were three delegations aiipuinteil by the ex-ovede to send on '' 
the other side /or helji, but there I did not .see the .safety that i \sas looking foi-. not that 1 
distrust my yountrymen ; but such a great revolution will bring imiiien.se ilisasters and I 
don t want dVring njy life to bring disasters except those which I am Ijuunil to bring to > 
defend my own life and to avoid, to take away from my country ilisasters which threaten 



) 



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me and my friends and those who lia\e contiileiice in nie. XwA I don l abandon my an 
cestors either. The acknowledgement that I liave for my am-estors, my ancestors were I 
aiiioijg those who came from Scandinavia and the liritisli [slands lOOO years ago, some of 1 
them went to Limerick and were called Kiel.son and then cros.sed in (."anada anil they '' 
w ere called Kiel, .so in nie there is the Scandinavian and » ell rooted there is the I risli, and ^ 

- there is the French and there is some Indian blood. The Scandinavians if possible they -^ 
will have a share, it is my plan it is one of the illusions of my in.sanily, if 1 am insane, thai ' 
they should have on the other side of the mountain a new Norway, a hew Uenmark and'' 
a new Sweden .so that those who spoke of the lands of the great North West to be 
divided in .seven forgot that it was in ten, the French in Manitoba, the iiavarians the Ita- 
lians the Poles and the Irish in the Nort.h-West and then live on the other side too. 

I have wj-itten those things. Since i am in jail, those things have pas.sed through the '• 

'.^hands of Captain Dean. There they are in the hands of the Lieutenant (!overnor, and '^ 
something of it has reached Sir John, I think, I don't know. I did hide my thoughts, l'' 
want through the channel of natural emigration or peaceful emigration, through the f 
channel of constitutional means to .start the idea ami if ))0.ssible to inaugurate it, but if I' 
J can't do it during my life, I lelive the ideas to be fullilled in the future and if it is not 
\ 



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j>ossililc, you arf! rca-ioiialdo uifu and you know that tlic [)laus tliat I proiM)se are of 
ail iniiiioiisf' iiitorost and if it is not if tliat jicaceful uhannfl of Pini^'ratioii is not open to 
those raees into tlie Nortli-West, tliey are in suf)i number in tlie States tliat when vou 
.<'xpei't it least tliey will perhaps try to come on your borders and to look at the land 
whether it is; worth ]>ayin;f a \isit.or not, that is thn one-seventh of the lands, that is 
nhout the one-se\enth of <he lands. So you see that liy the very nature of the evidence 
wliicli has lieeh jfiveu here wlien the witnesses speak of the one-seventh of tlie lands, 
that very same (juestion orii;iiiates frfnii li^ZO, from the tiouMes nf Ited l'i\cr, whifih 
ln-ouj^ht a treaty where the onc-se\eiitli of the lands took its e\isteii:e. and I ^;iv that if 
this court tries me for what lias taken plai e into tlie North- West, tliey are tiyinj; ine 
for soiiietliiii;; which was in existence liefoie them. This Court was iidt in existence when' 
the dirticiilties of which we speak now in the Saskatchewan tieniin. it is the dirticulties 
»if 'ti',1 and what I .say is I « isli that I have a trial. My wi-,li i-, this. Your lloii'irs, tliat 
a commis^i(ln he ai)poiiitcd liv the proper aiithnrities, hut amoii;;s( the proper authoritie.s 
of course I count the I'lniili^h authoritiis, tliat is the first pn'p,r authi>i itics, thar a com- 
mission he appointed^ that that coniiiiission examines into this (|uestion or if they are 
appointed to tiy me, if a special trihunal is ap]ioiiited to try me. that I am tried tirst on 
this ipiestion : lias Hiel relielled in ti!' .' 2nd. question : Was Hiel a muiderer of 
Tliouias Si-ott, when Thomas Scott was executed ? .Srd. ipiestion : When Kiel receive<l 
the money from Archhishop Tache reported to he the money of Sir John, was it 
corru])tioii money .' 4th When Hiel seizj-d witli the diuncil of Ked Hiver on the jiro- 
perty of the lluilson Hay. ( "oy , if he did a common jiilla^^e .' When Hiel was e.x|iellwl 
from the House as a fiii;ili\e of ju-tice in 1.^74, was he a fui,'iti%e of justice, as at 
that time lie had tliroii',di the inemher for llochela<,'a now in Canada, and tliroU!,'h 
Dr. Kiset had coiiiniiinicatioii with the ( iovernmeiit, hut anotlier time throuirh the 
ineiiilier for l|ocliela^;a, .\It. Alphon^c I le^jaidiiis 

I have asked from the .Minister of . Justice an interview o(i the fourth of March, and 
that inti'iview was lefiised to me. In the month of -Vprjl, I was expelleil from the 
HoiiM' I.epine was arrested in IST.i, and 1 was not, not li^tause they did not want to 
take me. .And while I was in the woods waitin<,' for my electifui, Sir John sent parties to 
me otlerin;; me .■s:i.'t.O()ll if T would leave the lountry for tliiee^years, and if that wa< not 
enoii^di to .say what I wanted, and that I mii,dit take a triji over the water lie.-.idis and 
over the world. At the time I refuseil it. This is not the tirst time that the 
.^'.S.i.OlH) comes u]>, and if at that time [ refused it, was it not rea.sonahle lor me tliUt I 
should think it a sound .souvenir to Sir John .' Am I insultiu); .' Xo, I do not insult. 
You don't mean to insult me when you declare me guilty, you aiH according to yjoiir 
convictions. | also act iiccordiii}? to mini'. 1 speak true. I say they should try iiitf on 
tjiis c|ue?,tion : Whether I i-el.elled in the Saskatchewan inilS,S.^. There is another 
ijuestiou I want to liavf on trial. I wish to ha\e a trial that would cover the .space of 
tifteen yi-ars on which puMic ojiinion is not satisfied. I have, without mcaniin; any 
oti'eiice, I have heard w ithout meaiiiny' anv otience, when 1 spoke of one of the artiisles I 
iiienlioiied, some gentlemen liehind me .savini;. \ es he was a munlerer. \ ou see what 
remarks I It shows there is soiucthinj,' not told. If tolil liy Liw it wiaild nor I.e said. 
I wish to ha\e my trial, as I am tried for hotli, and as I am tiieil lor my career I wish 
my i-areer sliouUI he tried, iiiit the last j<art of it On the other side 1 am iheclared to 
lie j,'itilty of liiirli trea.son and I •,'i\c myself as a jirophet of the new world. If 1 am u'nilt.v 
of liijih treason 1 say I am the pro|'het of the new wurld. 1 wish that while a commis- 
sion sits on one .side, a eoiiiinission of doctois should also sit and examine fully whether I 
am sane, wliethei; I am a prophet or not. Not insanity," U-cause it is dispo.sed of, hut 
xrhetlier I am a deceiv^'r or an impostor. I ha \e said to my lawyers : •• 1 haviMvrittcn things 
which were .said to me last ni;;ht, and which have taken place to-day." I said that liefore 
the (.'ourt opened last nit;ht the spirit that ifi'ides and assists me tohl ine : " The Court will 
make an ethirt. ' Your Honor, allow me to .speak of your iliarue, wliiili ajijiciii'd tome 
to j;o on one side. The ('ourt, made an eti'ort, and I think that word was justified. .\t the 
.same time there was another thin<; said to me : " .\ conimis.sion w ill sit ; there w ill lie a 
comniis.sion. 1 did not hear yet that a commission is to take place. I a.sked for it. 
You will see if 1 am an impostor tiierehy The doctors will say, when 1 sin-ak of these 



/ 180 

The fifth section of the statute thus having been complied with as to the form of the 
charge, the hiw is, that inferior courts lUust sliow their jurisdiction on tlie face of their 
proceedings ; but tlie contrary is the law in the case of superior courts. A court ha\ing 
jurisdiction to try a man for high treason and felonies punishable witli death, cannot be 
called an inferior court ; and this court has all the incidents, appertaining to a superior 
court, and if the only court in the North-West Territories. 

"The courtVonstituted under the North- West Territories Act of 18H0, being a superior 
court, need noj show jurisdiction on the face of its proceedings. The authorities cited to 
maintain the-position were of inferior jurisdiction and are not applicable. 

On the 7tli may, l!<t<0, the Dominion Government, by tiie Xortii-West Territories 
Act, constituted the Court of the Queen's Bench of .Manitol)a a Court of Appeal in res- 
pect to offences punishable with death. 

It is the prisoner, however, who appeals to us, not tlie Crown, and he can hardly be 
heard to object to tlie jurisdiction to which he appeals. 

It is further urged that tlie stijiendiary magistrate did not take, or cause to be taken, 
in writing, full notes of the evidence and other proceedings upon the trial. 

It is true, the evidence producid to us appears to have been taken by a siioit hand 
writer ; whether the stiiiendiury magistrate took, or caused to be taken, other notes in 
writing after the trial, in pursuance of sul>section 7 of section 70 of the Act, does not 
appear. 

It is the prisoner, for it is his api>eal, who furnishes this court with the evidence 
upon which the appeal is heard, and the Crown does not object to it. 

Unless e.xpressly I'eijuired by statute, the judge who tries a i-riniiiial case is not 
Ijbund to take clown the evidence, and wlieii he is recjuired to do so, it is, in order that it 
may be forwarded to tlie minister of Justice. Sub section tive, under wliicli tlie trial took 
place, says nothing about the evidence, but sini]>iy that the stipendiary magistrate and a 
■justice of the peace, with tiie intervention of a jury of six, may try any charge, against 
any person or persons, for any crime. 

It is siib-section seven which directs the stipendiary magistrate to take or cause to 
be taken, in writing, full notes of the evidence and other proceedinus thereat ; and sub- 
section eight enacts, that when a person is convi.ted of a capital olh-iuv, anil is sentenced 
to death, the stipendiary magistrate shall forwanl to the minister of Justice full notes 
of the evidence, with his report upon the case. 

•Suppose the notes (jf the evidence were takiii liy a sliort hand reporter, iiiid after- 
^^''fi^arcB^^itended liy him, does not the stipendiary magistrate, in the words of Wie statute, 
"cause'to be taken in writing full notes of the e\iili'nce."' 

I am of opinion tliat,yo/' t/n- /rial, the stipendiary magistrate is not bound to take 
down the evidence, but lie is bound to do so to forward the same to the minister of 
Justice. 

In >ny opinion there is no departure from the direction of the statute. He does 
cause them to lie taken. Tlie directions, first to take them by short hand, and then to 
extend them by writing, is all one direction, or causing to be taken. This seems to me a 
reasonable compliance with the reijuirements of sub-section seven. Is it not too rigid a '^ 
reading of the statute ^ say that the writing must be done wliilst the trial jirogresses. f* 
Sub-section eight does not say a copy shall be sent to the minister of Justice, but "full 
notes of-tlie evidence shall be sent to the minister of Justice." 

Suppose the notes of the evidence were burned by accident — would the prisoner be "' 
denied his appeal ? 

The Crown has not objected to the evidence as furnished by the prisoner. The i- 
exception is purely technical, and in my opinion is not a valid one. r 

A good deal has been said about the jurif being composed of six only. There is no 

law which says that a jury shall invariably consist of twelve or of any particular numl^er. •' 

lu Manitoba, in civil cases, the jury is composed of twelve, but nine can find a verdict. ''^ 

In the North-West Territories Act, the Act itself declares that the jury shall consist of " 

vpix, and thiswas the number of the jury in this instance. Would the stipendiary magis Y 

pOVk _ . 



.181 

tnite have been justified in impannelling twelve, when the statute directs him to im- 
piinnel six only ? 

It was further comi)laintd that tliis power of life and death Was too great to be 
entrusted to a stipendiary niai-istrate. 

AVhat are the safeguards 1 

Tin: stipendiary magistrate must lie a barrister of at least five years standing. There 
must be associated with him a justice of the peace, and a jury of six. The court must be 
m open pulilic court. The pri.soner is allQwed to make full answer and defence by 
counsel. 

Section 77 permits him to appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench in Manitoba, when 
the evidence is produced, and he is again heard by counsel, and time judijes re-consider 
liis case. - Again, tlie evidence taken by the stipendiary magistrate, or that caused to be 
taken by him, must, before the sentence is carried into etlect, be forv.arded to the minister 
of Justice;; and sub-section eij^ht re(juires tlie stipendiary magistrate to postpone the 
execution, from time to time, until such report is receive*!, and the pleasure of the 
<io\ernor tliereon is conniiunicated to tlie Lieutenant-t Jovernor. Thus, before sentence is • 
carrie(^. out, tlie prisoner is heard twice in court, throuijli counsel and his ca.se nuist have 
' !en considered in (,'ounpil, and the ple^isure of the (iovernor thereon communicated to 
tlic Lieuienant-t nernor. 

It .seems to me tile law is not open to tlie charge of unduly or hastily confiding the 
pONVer in tlie triliuiuils before which tlie prisoner has been heard. Tlie sentence, when 
tlie )>iisi>iicr iij)peals, cannot be carried into etlect until liis case has been three times 
Jieard, in tlie manner above stated. 

Counsel then rest the jirisoiier's case upon the ground of insanity, and it is upon ■, 
this latter pi)int only that the prisoner called witnesses. , 

The jury by their finding have negatived this ground, and the jirisoner can only 
ask, bi^fore us, for a new trial, we have no otiier jiower of whidi lie can avail himself. 
The rule at law in uivil cases is, that the evidence against the verdict must greatly pre- 
ponderate before a \erdict will be set aside ; and in criminal cases in Ontario, whilst the 
law (now repealed) allowed a]>plicaticnis for new trials, the rule was more stringenf — a 
verdirt in a criminal ca.se would not be set aside if there was evidence to go to the juiVi 
and the jiidife wimld not express any opinion ujion it if there was evidence to go to the 
jury, if their verdict could not be declared wrong. 1 have carefully read the evidence, 
and it uiijiears to me that the jtiry could not reasonably have. come to any other conclu- 
sion than the verilict of guilty ; there is not only evidence to support the verdict, but it 
vastly preponderates. 

It is-said the prisoner labored under the insane delusion that he was a prophet, and 
that he had a missiiin to fulfil. When did this mania fii-st; seize him, or -when did it 
manifest it.sclf / ^SIlortly before he came to .Saskatchewan he had Iteen teaching school in 
Montana. Ii was'not this mania tiiat impelled him to fouimvnce the work wliich ended 
in the charjje at IJatoche. He was invited liy a deputation, who went for him to .Montana. 
The original idea was not his — did not originate with him. It is argued, however, that 
his demeanor chanued in March, just before the outbreak. Before then he had l>eeu 
hoUling iiiei-tiiii;^, addressing audiences, and acting as a sane person. His correspondence 
witii ticneral (now (Sir Kiederick) Midilleton betokens no si;;ns of either weakness of 
intellect or of 1 delusions, taking tlie definitions of this disease, as given by the experts. 
And how does his conduct comport therewith* The maniac imagines his delusions real, 
they are fixed and determinate, the bare contradiction causes irritability. 

The first witness called by the prisovier, the Kev. Father Alexis Andre, in his cross- 
examination says as follows : — ' ; ' , • 

' •. \\'ill you please state what the prisoner asked of the Federal Government? — 
A, ] had two interviews with the iirisoner on that subject. 

Q. The prisoner claimed a certain indemnity from the Federal Governineut. Didu't 
he? — A. When the prisoner made his claim, I was there with another gentleman, au«t 

jrity. 



182 

he asked 8100,000. We thouglit tliat was exorliitant, and the iirisoner said : '• Wait a 
little, I will take at once i::J5,000 cash." ' • 

Q, Is it not true tlie prisoner told you lie himself was the lialf-lireed i|uestion .' — 
A. He did not say so in express tei'nis, hut lie conveyed tliat idea, lie said : " If I am 
satistil^d, tlie Half-breeds will he."' "^ 

The witness continues : I nnist exjilain tliis. Tliis o!>jection was made to liini, tliat 
even if tlie Uoveiniiieiit granted him the ^■.■}:■),«ll)0, tlie half iireiid i|iiestioii would remain 
the saiiip : and he said, in answer to that : " If I am satistied, the Half-iireeds will he." 

.^SjQ- Is it not a faet<*^~r?7W^iu he would even accept a less sum than the 8:l.'>,000? 
— A. Yes: he said, " Use) all the intiuence you can, you may not get all tliat, hut ^'et 
all you can, and if you gej; less,'we will see." 

This was the crbss-examination of a witness called hy the juisoner. 

Tolieneral Middletoii, after prisoner's arrest, he siieaks cjf Ids desire to negotiate 
for a money consideration. ' ■ 

111 my opinion, this shows lie was willing and ()uite capahle of jparting with this 
supposed delusion, if lie got the *=:55,UOO. 

A delusion must lie lixed, acted upon, and helievejl in as real, cnerconie and domi- 
nate in the -mind of the insane per.son. An insanity which can he jiut on or oil" at the 
will of the insjine person, according to the medical t'^stimony, is' not in.saiiity at alt in the 
sense of mania. 

■ Dr. Koy testified to his having heen conliiied in the l!i;auport asylum at Quehei, 
from which he was dischargi'd in .l-anuary, lS7f*. ills e\ idence was' so unsatisfactoi j, 
the answer not readily given, aiuL his account of )irisoner's insanity was given with .so 
much hesitation, that I think the jury were.' jivjijiiii-d in not placing any great reliance 
ujiou it. 

Dr. Clarke, of the Toronto asylum, as an expert, was not sulticiently positixeto 
eiiahle any one to form a definite opiiiioit ujionthe (|uestimi7if the sanity of the prisoner. 

Dr. Wallace, of the Hamilton asylum : Dr. .hikes, the iiieilical otiicer.who attended 
tlte prisoner from his arri\al at K»gina : (ieiieial Middleton, and Cajitain Young — these 
all failed to tind insanity in <iis nmduct or conversation. Neither could the lte\-. Mr. 
Pithlado, 1\ho had a good ojiportunity of conversing with him. 

In my opinion, the evidence against his iii.s;inity v»!iy greatly preponderate.s. Hesides, 
it is not every degree of insanity or mania that will justify his heiiig aci)uitted on that 
ground. The rule in that respect is most satisfactorily laid down in tlie M<X<i<ililcu case 
10 CI. it Fin. :idU. Notwitlfctanding the party accused ilid the act complained of with a 
view, under the influence of «nsane dehision. of redresshig some supposed grievances or 
injury, or of jiroducing some pijhlii'heiietit, he is nevei thelesspunishahle according to the 
nature of the crime tommitted, if he knew at the lime of coniinittiiig sucli crime that he 
was acting contrary to law. 

I think the evidence upon the i|uestion of insanity .shows that the jirisoner did know 
that he was acting illegally, and tlpit he was responsihle for iiis acts! 

In my opinion, a new trial should he refu.sed, and the conviction confirmed. 



Tavlok, J. — This is an appeal hrought under the provisions of section 77 of the 
Jfortli-West Territories Act, 18S0, Doni. 8tat. 43' Vic., c. 'In, hy Louis Itiel, from a 
judgmeijt rendered against him at Itegina, in the North- West Territories. 

On the liOth day of July last the ajipellant was charged before Hugh Richardson, 
Esq., stipendiary magistrate, and Jlenry Le Jeuiie, Esij., a justice of the jieace, sitting 
as a court under the jirovisions of section 76 of the above mentioned statute, with tlie 
crime of treason. After a plea by the appellant to the jurisdiction of the court, and a 
demurrer to the sufficiency in law of the charge or indictenient, liad both heen overruled, 
he appellant pleaded not guilty^ The trial was then, upon his application, adjourned for 
ifr»'i days to procure the attendance of witnesses on his behalf. On the 28th of jiily 

po»^ ' i ^ 

■ T I 



1 



\ 



183 

the trial was procfcilfd witli, and a larj;e miiiil)cr of witnesses were called and pxaiililied. 
At the dial the ajiiu-llaiit was dct'eiuh-il l.y three !,'en(k-iuen of hi>,'h stau<liii<,' at the liar 
of tlie Pro\iiK-e of (^Ufhee. Jiidj^'inL; from the arf;uiiients acldressed to this court l>v two 
of these gentleiiieii on tli«^ present appeal, I liave no hesitation in sjieaking of them as 
learned, aide and zealous, fidly competent to render to the appellant all the assistance in 
the pow(u- of counsel to aftoni him. On the 1st of au<;ust, the case liavin:,' )tebn left to 
• the jury, tlieyjreturned a verdict of guilty, and tliereuj^Mju sentence of <ifath was pro- 
nounced. Ki-^.iii that he l.rinL's his ap|)eal. 

It was not ur>; ^l Iiefore this court, as it was on tho trial at Hc^ina, that the appel- 
lant should ha\e lieen .sent for trial to the I'rovince of ( hitario, or to the Pro\ iiice of 
l»riti.-Nh Coluudiia, instead of his hein;.; hrouj^'ht to trial hetor<- a stipendiary magistrate 
and a justice of the peace in the Xorth-West Territories. 

This point not havin;; lieen arLfued, it is unnecessary to consider whether the Imj)erial 
Acts i.\ (icn.: I 1 1., .■. |;!M : 1 .t 1' (i,.„. I v., ,.. Cf), an<l -jj .t 2:5 Vic. c. L'f., are, or are not 
now in force. Only a passin',' allusion was made to thi'm'tiXcounsel. The tirst of them was- 
repealcd i,y the Statute Law I^evision Act, 1M7l'(;!."i .v ■'itt^'ic. c. r>:{), ami part of the 
second' wa.^ rep.-aled l,y the Statute Law Revision Act, l."<74\:!7 .t iiS Vice. :3.'.). At all 
events, the Impirial (i.i\crnment has never, under flu> authority of these, appointed in 
the Xorth-W e.^t Territories justices of the )>eace, uoi: est.il.lished courts, while under 
other statutes hereafter refetaed to. wholly diit'ereiit ]irovisioii^ has been made for dealini^ 
with crime in tln»i; TeriiiorieU, so that tlicy must he, treated as olisolete if not rejiealed. 

It was contcniltfd hy the appellant'.s counsel thfit the Inii>erial statutes relating to 
tr Hson, the 1'.'. ivhJ. HI., c. •-> : 7 \Vm. III., c. .$ ; :if. (Jeo. III., e. 7, and ■>7 (ko. III., 
c. (), which deline ^hat is treason, am. provide the mode in which it is to lie trietl, 
including,' the (pialitijcatiou of juror.s, theii- nundier, and the meth.xl of choosing them, are 
in tone in the North-W'e-t T.-rritories. Anil it was argueil, that in legislatinj,' for the 
ISorth-W est 'I erritorie.s. ^e people of wliich aii; not repre»eiit<Ml in the Douiinicm Par- 
liament, that Pailiament exeri'ises only a delegated power, which must he strictly cous- 
true<l, and cannot l*e e\ercisi-d to deprive the people llieri- of rights secured to them as 
liriti.-<h .^uiijccts i«y .Maixna Charta. or in any way alti-r tlie^e old statutes to their pre- 
judii'i\ Now of this argument aL;ain.-.t any change heing made in riuht> and privileges 
secured liy old charters and statutes, a great dealitoo much may he made. 

That these rights anil pri\ile<;es, wrested hy the people from tyrannical Sovereigns 
many centui'ies ago, wife and are valuahle, there can he no ipiestiou. Were the Sovereign 
at the jircsent day endeavouring to depiive the people of any of these, for the purposes 
of op|iression, it wo\dd speedilv he fouiul that tlu' lovi?' of liherty is as strong in the 
hearts of Ihitish sulijects to-day a* it was in the hearts of their forefathers, and they 
would. do tJicir utmost to uphold and defeud rights and privileges purchased hy the hlood 
of their ancestors. But it is a very ditlerent thing when the legislature, comjiosed of re- 
presentatives of the people, chosen hy them to expi:ess flifi'" will, deem it e.vpedieut to 
} make a change in the law, I'ven thiaigh that change Inay he the surrender of some of 
these old rigMs and pi ivilcj.'cs. 

Tli.it the l)oniiiiioii Parliament represents the j>eo|ile of the Xorth-West Territories 

. cannot, I think, he successfully disputed. It may he, that the inhahitants of these Ter- 

' ritories are not rcprebented in parliaiaeiit hy memhers sitting there chosen directly hy 

them, but these Territories form part of the Dominion of Canada, the people in them are 

citizens of Canada, not, as it was put hy counsel, neighhours, just in the same- way as all 

the people of this l>oml:iion are part and parcel of the great Hritiish Kmpire. The peopl-- 

of these Territories are represented hy the Dominion Parliament, jus| as the inhahitants 

of all the colonies are lepreseuted hy the House of Commons of England. Legislation for 

J these Territories hy the Dominion Parliament, must indeed pree-ede their heing directly 

represented there, liefore they cati he so. the numiier of representatives they are to have, 

the ijualitication of electors, and other matters must he provide;! for hy the L)ominion 

Parliament itself or by Local Legislatures created hy that Parliament. 

The ipiestion then is, what powers of legislation with reference to the X«rth-\Vest 
territories have been conferre<l upon the Dominion Parliament by Imperial authority. 



184 

In the exercise of that authority, whatever it ^lay lie, it is jiot exereisiiij; a delejsjated 
authority. 

To foiiiul an artfiiiiiont as to Parliaiaeiit exorcisiuj^ a delefjated authority, upon tlie 
language Used l)y Ainerieau writers, or upon judioial decisions in tlie United States, , 
appears to me to We wliolly fallacious. In the States of the Anjerican I'niou tlie theorj- is, 
that the sovereign power is vested in the people, and they,, l)y the (Constitution of the 
State, estaldishing ix k'gislature, delegate to that liody certain powers, a limited ))ortion 
of' the sovereign jiowei- which is vested in the jieople. The people, however, still retain 
certiiiu conunon law rights, the authority to deal with which they have not delegated to 
the legislative body. Hence the huiguage used hy Hronson, .1., in Tufilor vs. I'nrti'r, 4 
Hill, at p. 144. — •' Undei- our form of goveinnient (he legislature is not supreme. It is 
only one of the organs of that .•ibsoluti- sovereignty which resides in the whole hody of 
the people. Like other departments of the go\ernment it can only e.\erci.se such jiowers 
as have been delegativl to it." It i'; in the light of this (heory that (In- language of Mr. 
■Justice Story in Wilk'nis.m vs. I.ilnnl, •_' Peters, (ii'T, must he read and by which it must 
be construed. The case of the liritish I'iirliament -is cpiite diHerent, " in which," us 
Bla,ckstone says (///«'•/ .^/'l»<. Clnistian's Ed., Vol. I., ]>! 147, "the legislative power and 
(of course) the supreme and absolute' authority of the State, is vested by our consti- 
tution." And again, at ]>. Hit), he .says, ■• It hath so\ereign and uncontrollabh- authority 
in the making, conferring, enlarging, restiaining, abrogating, re|iialing, revising am! 
expounding of laws, oneerning matters of all possilile denominations * * * * this being 
the place where that ab.solute despotic i)Ower which must in all go\ernnients reside 
somewhere, is entrusted liytli XLOi.st itudon of (he.se kingdoms."' 

To the extent of the powers confeircd upon it, the Dominion Parliament exercises 
not delegated but i)lenary jiowers of legi.-,lation, though it cannot do anything beyond the 
limits which circumscribe the.-^e po\\er.<. When acting within tlieni, as was said by Lord 
feVlborne in 7V/f ifmn \s. liunth, L. U. .'i Ap]i. (.'a., at ]>. 904, si)eakiiig of the Indian 
Council, it is not in any seiise an agent oi- delegate of the [m|)erial Parliament, but has, 
and was intendeil to have, jileuury i>i>\\ers of legislation, as large, and of the same nature I 
as those of that Parliament itself. That the Dominion I'arliament has jilenary powers .' 
of legislation in respecfHvf all inatterse1it rusted to it was held by the Sujirenu' (.'ourt in 
Valin vs. Linii/loin. .S Sui), V. H. 1, and Citi/ of I'ndiriclini vs. The (^fii'i-n, :l Sup. 
C. R. 50o. So also, tl'.e jiidici.il cinnmittee of the Pri\ y (Jouncil have jield, in l/tijffr 
vs. The Queni. L. K. It App. ( '.*. 1 17, that the local legislaturf^s when legi.-,lating ti^tn 
matters withju section !);J of tht* British N'oi-lh .\merica .\jL-t, ]>rtss'e.ss authorityas plemir}' 
and as sample, within tht^ limits ])re.sci-ib^'il by that section, iVs the Imperial Parliament in 
the ]>lenitU(le of its power po.->.se.s:,e, I .and could bestow. 

The ]<ower of the Dominion Pailiameiit to legislate for (he Nor(h\Ves( Terri(ories 
seems (o me (o be derived in (his wi>c. ami (o ex(end thus far. Hy section I4ti of (he 
British North America , Vet it was ]iro\ided, (hut it shoidd be lawful for Her .Ma^eSty. 
with the ai|\ ice of Ifer l'ri\y Council, ''on uddiiss from (he Houses of (he Parlianien( 
of Canada, to admit I'uperts Jjind ahd the North Western Territory, ijr ei(hi;r of (hem, 
into tlie I'nioii, on sii<h tei'nis and conditions in each ca.se as are in the aildresses 
expressed, and as the (Jui en thinks lit to approve, .suliject to the in-ovisions of this Act ; 
and the provi.-.ions of any (lider in Council in tiiat beiialf shall have etlect as if (liey had 
been enacted by the Pailiakient of the I'nited Kingdom of (Jrea( itritain and L-eland." 

In l'"*tii,"tlie l>oiiiinion Parliament presented an arldress praying that Ili'r Majesty 
would be Weass-d to .unite UuperCs Land aiifl (hj; '\or(h Western Territory wi(h the 
Do)iiiiij/f?k, iihtLliiin'i^it to the Parliament of Canada authoritj' (o legislate for (heir 
future welfare iiiKf gobfl government. The address ;ilsu stated. (ha( in (he event of Her^ 
Majesty s (jiovernment agreeing to tran»fi r to Caiiaila llie ju'risdiutirm and control over 
the said region, (he ( !o\ernnien( and Parliament of^'unada would be ready to provide 
that the legal rights of any corporation, i-omiiany oi- individual within (he sanii' should • 
be re^)ec(<?d and ])laced under (he pi'otection of courts of competent juri.sdictiou. 

The following year, li^t)"*, (he Ru])ert's Land Act, ."il and :52 Vic.^ c. lO"),' was 
passed by the Imperial Parliament. For the jiurjHises of the Act the term Ruperts, 



i 



185 



Land is declared Ifi) ii\clude the whole of the lands and territories licld, or ehiinied to be 
held, liy th^(ioveynor and Conipfiay of Adventurers of Enfjlaud tnidinj; into Hudson's 
Bay. The Act tlik^n provides for a suiTender l>y the Hudson's ISay Conipany-xtj) Her 
Majesty of all their lands, rij^hts, privilejfes, etc., within Kujiert's Liind, and provides 
that the surrendekshall bo null and void unless within a month after its acceptance Her 
Majesty shall, byvtujler in Council, under the provisions of section 110 of the British 
North America Act, admit Ruperts Land into the Dominion. The fifth section j)ro- 
vides that it shall be competent for Her Majesty, by any Order in Council, to declare 
that Rupert's Land shall be admitted into and become part of tlie Dominion of Canada ; 
"and thereupon it shall be lawful for the Parliament of Canada, from the date aforesaid, 
tff make, ordain, and establish within the land and territory so admitted as afcnesaid,-' 
m.stitutioiis, and ordinances, and to constitute such courts and otiicers as may be nece.s- 
.siiiy for the peace, order, and good government of Her Majesty's subjects and others 
therein.'' ' 

In 1S(>9, a second address was jiresented, embodying certain resolutions and tenns 
of agreement come to between (.'auada and the Hudson's liay Company, and praying 
that Her Majesty's would be i>leased to unite Rupert's Land on the terms and conditions 
expressed in the foiegoing re.^olutions, and also to unite the North Western Territory with 
the Doniini<ui of (,'anada, as prayed for, by and on the terms and condition^ contained ill 
the" first address. 

The same year the iJominion Parliament jiassed an Act. S2 iV ^Vi \"w. c. 'i, for the 
temporary go\ernme^t. of Rupert's Land and the North- Western Territory, when united 
with Canada, which was to continue in force until the end of the next session of Par- 
liament. 

The following year, 1870, another Act was passed, 33 Vic c. 3, which amended 
and continued the former Act. and which formed out of the North-West Tiiritorv this 
Province of ^lanitoba. The last section of tliis act re-enacted, extended, and continued 
in force the 3l' a- '.V-'< Vic. c. :! until tlie 1st day of January, 1.S71, and until the end of 
the session of Parliament then next ensuing. 

On the I'.'lrd of .luiie, If'TO, Her .Majesty by Onler in ('ouncil. after reciting the 
addressi's j)re;seiited by the Parliament of Canada, ordered an<l declared "that from and 
after the l.")tli day of July, 1.^70, the North- Western Territory shall lie admitted into, 
iAid Income ])art of, the Dominion of Canada, upon the terms and conditions set forth in 
(he tiist liereinbefore recited address, and that the Parliament of Canmla shall, from the 
day aforesaid, ha\e full j)ower and authority to legislate for tile future welfare and goo«l 
government of the said territory. " 

By virtue of that Order in Council and of the :Jl iV 32 Vic. c. 10."', it seems to me, 
that on tlie l.nth of July, l."<7il. the Parliament of Canada became entitled to legi-slate 
and to make, ordain an(l establish within the North- West Territories all such liiws, insti- 
tutions, and ordinances, civil and criminal, and to establish such courts, civil and crimi- 
nal, as miyht bt' necessary for peace, older, and good government therein. The language 
useil is even wider than is Used in the SUst section of the British Nortil America Act, 
which defines the legislati\e authority of the Parliament of Canada, extending by sub- 
section '21 to tile criminal law : while tlfere is not as'there the restrictions, '•except the 
constitution of courts of criminal jurisdiction. ' but on tlie contrary express authority to 
constitute courts without any limitation. ' 

That by that Order in Council and Act the authority thercliy given extends over 
that part of the N<irth-West Territory wheiv the events occurred out of which the charge 
against the appellant arcrse, there can be no doubt. iJy the terms of the agicemeut be- 
tween. (Canada anil the Hud.son's Bay Company, the latter were to retain certain lauds, 
find in a schedule annexed to the <.>rder in Council theexact localities are melitioneil. Ill 
tlie Saskatchewan District the names Edmonton, Fort Pitt, Ciwlton House, and other 
places a pj>ear. 

It is true that in 1871, another Ac't was passetl by the luinerial Parliament, the 
34 i 3."> Vic. c'. 28, spoken of by Mr. Fitzpatrick as "The Doubts-R«iiioving Act,'' but J 
oaunot come to the conclusion which he seeks to draw from that fact, and fiian its con- 



••: 186 

fjrijiiii.i,' two Acts of tlie CunaTTian PailianiPiit, tliat tlip former Act, M it 32 Vic. c. 105, 
(li(i not ;,'ive tlie JJoiniiiioii Parliament full power to lei.'islate for the Nortli-Wcst Terri- 
tory. The former Act provided for tin- adniis.sioii of Rujierts Land and the North- 
Westeni Territory into tlie Dominion, Imt was silent a.s to the division of the Territory 
so a<liuitted, into ProviiR-es, or as to their repieseiitatiou in jiarliuiuent. That it was 
douhts on the.se matters which the Ait was intended to remci\ e is shown liy the (ireuiuhle. 
It is ill these words, •• Whereas douhts have heen entertainc^d respectiiij,' the jxiweis of 
the Parliament of Canada to istaMi.sh proviiices in Territories admitted, or Uliicli may 
hereafter he admitted into the Dominion of (,'aiiada, and to jiroviiji^ for the rt'liresenta- 
tion (jf such provinces in the .said Parliament ; and.it is expedient to remove such doiihts 
and -to vest such ])Owers in the said Parliament." The second and third sei'tions then 
provide for the estahlishment of provinces, for, in certain cases, the alteration of their 
limits, and for their reiire.sentatioii in Parliament. The fourth section, in i;eneral teriii-s, 
says, •■ tlle.P^rlialneT^ of ' Canada may from time to time make provision for the admi- 
nistration, peace, order, and jjood i;overnmeiit, of any territory, not for the time heiiif^ 
included in any j)roviiKe ; '' a power y hi<-li Pailiameiit already had in the most amplt^ 
niahiier. Then follows a conlirmation of the Canadian Acts .ll' it 'i'.i Vic. c. :$, and 15.1 
Vic/c. '.'). That the Act should contaiji such a coiilirmatii.ii is easily accounted for. The 
Imjjerial 'Act 'M it .■i2 Vic. c. lUo, s. -"i, jnovided that it should l>e competint for 'Her 
Majesty, liy Oi'dei; in Council, ''to declare tlint Rupert's l^and shall; from a date to he 
tlierein mentioned, he admitted," itc, and " thereuiion it shall 1m- lawful for the Par- 
liament of -Canada, from the date aforesaid,'' to make laws, itc - 

The Oilier in Council was made on the 2-'5rd of June, 1(^70, and the date therein 
mentioned was the Ditli of July, lf<70. Now, a rcfiience to the.two Canadian .\ctsshows, 
that the :J2nd and .'J.'ird Vic, c. .'5, was ai^sented toon the 22nd of June, lf<t)'.*, and the 
."{;5rd Vic. c. 3, on the 12tli of May, iJ^TO. So, in fact, they were liotli pas.sed liefore tlie 
time arrived at which the Parliament of Canada had the ii>;lit to legislate respectinj^ 
the XW^th-West. Hut they had lieen acted ujion, and the Province of Manitoha actually 
organized, therefore they were conKrmed and declared valid from the date at which 
they received the as-sent of the (iovernor (ieneral; 

Acting under the authority given in the most ample manner hy these Acts of the 
Imperial Parliament, and, as it seems to iiie, in the e.\ercise not of a delegatedauthority, 
but of plenary jxiwi-rs of legislation, the Dominion' Parliament enacted the Xorth-West 
Territories Act, l.'Si^O (4."? Vic-., c. 2")) which provides, among other tliing.s, for the triyfl 
of otfences committed in the.se Territories in tin: maimer there pointed out. 

The appointnlent of stipeii(liary magistrates, who Aiust lie harristers-at-law or ad\o- 
cates of live years' standing, is provided for liy the 74th section. 

Ky the 7lith section, each stipendiary magistrate shall liavi- )iower to hear and 
determine any charge against any person for any criminal ottence -alleged to have heeii 
committed within certain specified territorial limits. These words are ipiite wide enough 
to include the crime of treason. The various suh-sections of section 7<i pro\ ide for the 
mode of trial in certain cliTsses of oft'eneeSj Those speciKed in the ttrst four suh-sections 
are to be tried by the stipendiary magistrate in a summary way without the intervention 
of a jury. Then the 5th sub-section says, " In all other criminal cases the stipendiary 
magistrate and a justice of the peace, with the intervention of a jury of six, may try any 
charge against any person or persons for any crime." Again tlie words are (juite wide 
.enough to cover the crime of treason. ' \ 

Counsel for the appellant contemled that from the word treason l»eing used in/the 
10th sub-section, and no where else in the Act, it must be inferred that the Act did not 
intend to deal with the crime of treason, except in the matter of. challengiifg jurors 
which is dealt with in that sub-section. The suggestion made by Mr. Robinson is, how- 
ever, the more reasonable one, namely, that treason is there named advisedly, to put 
beyond doubt, there being only 36 jurors summoned,. that a prisoner charged with that 
particular crime should not be entitled to exercise the old common law right, which a 
prisoner charged with treason had, of challenging, peremptorily and without cause, 
thirty-live jurors. i 



187 

The question must next he considered, wliether the iiroceedings against the appellant, 
have heen conducted accordins,' to the reiiuireuients of this Act. 

Tlie reeord liefme the Court shows that tlie trial took jiiaee before a stij>fndiary 
magistrate and a justice of tlie ])cace, with a jury of six selected ami sworn after the 
appellant had exercised his right of challenging several jurors. 

Two ohjections to the regularity of the proceedings are, however, raised. The first 

of these is, that the inforiiKftion uixui which the appellant was charged was exhihited 

before the stipendiary n^i/iristrate alone, and not l>efore the sti|>endiary magistrate and a 

"justice of the |>eace. An iiis])ecti"n of the docuiucnt shows the fact to l>e so. But is it 

necessary that the information should lie cxhiliited hefore both ? 

The powers and jurisdiction oi stipendiary UKigistrates are set out in section 70 of 
the North-West Territories Act, XKSi). , 

The tirst part of tiie section says, each stipendiary magistrate "shall have the magis- , 
teiial and other functions a]i|iertaining to any justice of the peace, or any two justices of 
the peace, under'any laws or ordinanccw which may from time to time be in force in the 
North-West Territories.' That is a distinct proposition. 15y the schedule annexed to 
the Act one of the laws in force there is tlie '■\'2 it 'Xi Vic, c. 'M).- I'nder the 1st section 
of that Act itis clear that jH charge or complaint that any persk>n lias couniiitted, or is 
sus|)ected to have committed treason, may lie exhiliited Uefoie o*ie justice of the peace,' 
and a warrant for his api>reliension issued by such jiistice. J 

Section 7G then goes on further, that each stipendiary magistrate "shall also have 
jKiwer to llea'r and determine any charge against any person for any criminal otleiice," 
lire. In ail other criminal cases than those specitied in the tirst four sub-sections he and a 
justice of the ]ieace,.witli tJie intervention of a jury of six, may try the charge. Tt is only 
when the charge comes to be tried tliat the presence of a justice of the peace along with 
him is nece.ssary. To hold that the words " try any charge ' include tlie exhibiting of the 
information, or that it must be so, before both a stipendiary magistrate and a justice of 
,tlie peace, seems to mi^ to in\olve tiie holding also, that for the purpose of exhiliiting the 
information tlieie is also ni'cessaiv the iiitei\ tntion of a jury of six. Now the jury cannot 
be called iii|;o existence until the charge has been iuade, the accused arraigned ujion it, 
and/ he has pleaded to it. - \. 

The case of ^^y. vs. Rimsell, 13 ©. 1!. •J.l", *was cited in supjiort of this objection, 
but, as I i*ad that case, it is a diiect..<tuthority against it. An information was exhibited 
under the Ai^t for the fienel-al Hegulation of the Cu.stouis, before jt single justice, and 
was dismissed by the justices before whom the charge was brou;flit for trial, on .-the 
ground that it should have been exhibited before two justices, in conforiiiity with section 
X2 of the Act for the Prevention of Smuggling. That section provided that all jienalties . 
and forfeitures incurred or imposed by any Act relating to the customs should and might 
be "sued for, prp.secuted, and recovered by action of debt, bill, plaint, or information in. 
any of Her Majesty's Courts of Record," iVc, "or liy information liefore any two or more 
of Her Majesty's Justices of the Peace," itc. A rule calling on the justices to show cause 
wliy a mandamus shiaild not issue commanding them to proceed to adjudicate upon the 
information, was obtained. Upon the return of the ride, counsel for the justices contended, 
that the proN isioii that the jienalty may be "sued for," liy information, must refer U> the 
commencement of the proceeding, in like manner as in the provision that it may be 
" sued for ' by action. But the Court made the rule for a mandamus absolute. Lord 
Denmau, C. J., who delivered the judgment of the court, saying. " The ^'liu\ section of 
the Act does not necessarily mean that the information must be laid before two justices, 
1jut only that it must be heard before two justices. ' 

The next objection is, that at tire trial full notes of the evidence and proceedings 
thereat, in writing, were not taken, as retiuired by the stiitute, section 76, sub-section 7. 
What was actually done, as it is admitted on both sides, was, that the evidence and a 
record, of the proceedings were taken down at the time by stenographers appointeil by • 
the magistrate, and they afterwards extended their notes. 

The objection cannot be, that the magistrate did not himself take notes of the 







188 



evidence autl proceedings, for the statute says he shall " take, or cause to be taken," full 
notes, &c. It must be that the notes were ta'ken by stenographic signs or symbols. 

No doulrt, enactments regulating the procedure in courts seem usually to be imper- 
ative, and not merely directory. Muxvell on Slatitlfs, 456 ; Taylor vs. Tai/lor, L. R. 1 
Ch. Div. at p. 431. But tlie force of the objection depends upon what is meant by the 
word " writing.' In proceeding to consider it, I am not conscious of being in any way 
prejudiced, from tire circumstance that 1 am myself a stenogra])her. The statute does not 
.sjiecify liny method or form of writing, as tliat which is to lie adopted. '* Wridrjg" i.s, in 
^the Imjieriar Di<:tionary, said to bo " The act or, art of forming letters or characters, on 
liaper, jiarchment, wood, stone, the inneivbark of certain trees, or other material, for the 
jmipose of recjording tlie ideas which characters and woi-ds express, or of communicating 
them to others by vi.sible signs." In the same work, '"to write,'" is defined tlius, "To pro 
duce, form or make by tracing, legible characters e.xjiressive of ideas,"- Is not stenographic 
writing the ]iroduction of "legible characters, expressive of ifleas " ? The word is frirmed 
fioin two (iieek word.s, " stenos ' and " giajiho," and means silniily "close writing." If 
the objection is a good one, it mu.st gp the length of insisting that the notes must be 
taken down in ordinar}' English cliaiaJL-ters, in words at full length. If'any contractions 
or al)breviations were made, the objection would have quite as much force as it has to the 
method adopted in this ca.se. 

Jif >Stanhi(i, 1 Man. L. R. 32."), was an entirely diflerent case. It was one under the 
Extradition Act, and the evidence was taken in sliort hand, as is usual on a trial. The 
Court lield,. that, the lejiorter's notes extended, which were pr(>»(iK-ed before it, on the 
argument on the return of a writ of hiihing i-iirp>i.t obtained by the prisoner, could not l>e 
looked at, and that there was really no evidence. Kut the (Jourt so held, lieciuise the 
jii'ovisions of the 3l'nd li: 33rd Vic. c. 30, s. 39, were applicalile to the mode wr wiiich 
the evidence .should be taken in extradition proceedings. That section leipiires the depo- 
sitions to be put in writing, read over to the witnes.s, signed by him, and also signed by 
the justice taking the same. The dejiositions in the case in <|uestion liad not been read 
over to tlie witnesses, nor signed by tliem ; nor were they sigm^l by the judge who took 
tlieiii, so that clearly the reijuirementsi of the Act had not been bomjilied with. 

Ill addition to the ol)jections alieady dealt with, it was argued, tliat -.the appellant is 
entitled to a n(w trial, on the ground that the e\ ideiice adduced proved his insanity, and 
tjiat the jury slw.uld ha\e so found, and tlierefore rendered a verdict of not guilty. 

I The section of the statute which gives an appeal, says, in general terms, that any 
pwson convicted may a])peal, without saying upon what grounds ; so there ca^i be no 
doubt the one thus taken is open to tiie a|)pellant. The <|uestion, however, arises. How- 
should the Court deal with an appeal u]>on matters of evidence .' We ha\e no precedents 
in our own cour.t,but the decisions in Ontario during the time when the Act resjiecting 
new trials and apjieals, and wiit.s^ of error in criminal cases, in Upper Canada (Con. Stat. 
U. C. c. 113) Wcie in force there, may be ivferivd to as- guides. Hy the tirst section, of 
that Act, any i)erson convicted of any treason, felony, or mi.sdemeauour, might apply for 
a new trial upon any point of law, or ijuestion of fact, in as amjile a manner as in a civil 
action. 

The decisions under the Act ai«,uniform and consistent, and a. few of tliem may be 
referred to. ■ 

The earliest caseupon the jioint, and iierhajis the leading case, is A'''.'/- '"•' Chtifilia, 
14 U. C. C. _P. 32. in which the prisoner had been convicted of a capital oH'ence. In 
giving judgment, Wifson, .)., said : " In passing the Act, giving the right f,o the^iccuse<l 
to move for, and the Court to grant, a new trial, I do not .see that it was intended to 
give'fcourtS'the power to say that a verdict is wrong, because the jury arrived at conclu- 
sions which there was e\ idence to warrant : although from the same state of Yacts, other 
and different conclusions might fairly have been drawn, and a contrary verdict honestly 
given." Richards, C. J.,^Ijefore whom the case had been tried, said : " If I had been on 
the jury, I do not think iNsjiould have arrived at the same conclusions, but as the law- 
casts upon them the responsibility of deciding how- far they will give credit to the wit- 




189 



iy 



nesses brouglit before them, I do not think we are justified in reversing their decision, . 
unless ■Ve can lie raitaiii that it is wronjf." 

In Jit^y. in. ii'reenirtiod, 23 U. C. Q. I>. 255, a case m w}iicli the prisoner had been 
convicted of murder, llaf,'arty, J., said : " 1 consider that 1 discharge my diity as a judge 
Itefore whom it is sought to obtain a new trial on the ground of the alleged weakness of 
the evidence, or of its weight iu eitliej scale, in declaring my opinion that tliere was evi- 
dence proper to be submitted to the jutj' ; tliat a number of material facts and circum- 
stances were alledged properly before tliem — links as it were in a chain of circumstantial 
\ evidence— which it was their especial duty and jirovince to examine carefuJly, to test 
■^ their weight and adaptalnlity each to the other * * * * To adopt any other view of 
the law, would be simply to tiiinsfer the conclus^n of every prisoner's guilt or innocence 
from the jury to the judges." . '^ r 

Rcij. vs. llitiiiiltoH, 16 U. C. C. P. 340, was also a case iu which the prisoner had/ 
been coi\victed of murder. Richards, C. J., who delivered the judgment of the court, 
said : " We are not justified in setting aside the verdict, unless we can .say the jury were 
wrong in the conclusion tliey have arrived at. It is not suthcieut that we would not 
have pronounced the same verdict ; before we interfere we must be xafis/ir',/ they have 
arrived at an erroneous conclusion.' So, in Jii-(/. fn. Sidiloit.", IG I'. C. V. P. 3^!t, it was 
said ^••• The verdict is not perverse, nor against law and evidence ; and althouL'h it mav 
be somewhat againsr the judge's charge, that is no reason for interfering, if tliere be 
evidence to sustain the finding, iiecause the jury are to judge of the sulHciency and weight- 
• of the evidence." 

In /•'<•.'/. o. S/aiiii, 17 l^. C. C. P. 205, the law on the subject was thus stated : *' We 
do not jupfess to have scanned the evidence ,with the \ iew of saying whetlier the jury 
might or might not, fairly considering it, have rAidereda verdict of ac(|uittal. We have 
already declared on se\eral occasions that this is not our ]irovince under the statute. It 
is sutHcient for jis to say that tliere was evidence which warranted their finding." 

The learned counsel tor the aj)pellant have argued \\ ith gre;it force and abilitv that "^ 
, the overwhelming weight of the evidence is to establish his in.-^anity. I'nder the autlk)- 
rities cited, all that my duty reipiires me to do is to seeif there is any evidence to 
suppiirt the finding of the jury, which implie.-> the a]ipellant sV«nTTty. 1 have, liowever, 
read carefully the evidence, not merely that of the experts, and what bears sjieciallv 
Uimn.this point, but the general e\ idcnce. It seeiiuil to me projur to do so, because it 
is only after acijuiriiig a knowledge of the a]ipellant's . conduct and actioii.s throughout, 
that the value of the expert evidence can be jirojierly estimated. 

After a critical examination of the evidence, I hnd it imjio.^sible to coi'ne to any- 
other conclusion than that at which the jury arrived. The apj>ellant is, beyond all doubt, 
a man of inordinate vanity, excitable, irritable and impatient of contradiction. He 
seems to have at times acted in an extraordiiuiry manner ; to have said many strange 
things, and to have entertained, or at least professed to entertain, absurd views on reli- 
gioul and political subjects. But it all stops far short of establisliing such unsoundness 
of mind as would render him irresponsible, not jiccountable for his actions. His course 
of lionduct indeed shows, in many ways, that the whole of his apparently exttaonlinary 
conduct, his claims to divine inspiration, and the prophetic character, was only part of a 
cunningly devi.sed scheme to gain, and,hohVJ.ii'luence aiuLpower oicr the simple minded 
people around him, and to secure personal immunity iu the event of his ever being called 
to account for his actions. He setsuis to have hail in viewjj llile professing to cham|.ion 
[the interests of the Metis, the securing of pecuniary aavantage for himself. This is 
evident from, among other circumstances, the conversation detailed by the Rev. yif. 
.^dre. . Tiiat gentleman, after he had spoken of the appellant claiming that he should 
receive from thtf Government ^100,000, but would be willing to take at once .<.'i.5,000 
cash, was asked. " Is it not true that the prisoner told you that he himself was the lialf- 
breed question." His reply is. "He did not say so in express terms, but he conveyed that 
ides. He said, if I am satisfied, tlte Half-breeds will be. I must explain this. This 
objection was made to him, that even if tli6 Government granted him :?35,000, the nalf- 

N 



IV 



190 



t\.iei lo coniiiiue in ins reiiijious 
tioii lie(was not ivsjxjiisilile — tlm 
CDulil noT suffer any coiitnulictioi 



1 



breed "question 'would rema'.n the same, and he said in answer to fliat, if I am satisfied, 
the .Jlalf-breeds ivill We." ~-=^ , — ' 

He also says that tlie priests met an<l put ttle (juestioii : " Is it possible to allow 
Riel to continue in his reliifious duties, and they unanimously decided that on tJiis (|nes- 

it he was comiilcteiy a fool on tliis (piestion -that he 
y contradiction. On the ipiestioiis of reli;;ion and politics \vc consi- 
dered that he was completely a fool." Tliere is nothing; in all that wliich would Justify 
the conclusion tliat the man so spoken of was not ies|ioij.silile in the eye of the law for 
liis ai'tions. Many people are iiii])atient of contradiction, or of authority lieiiif,' exeici.sed 
hver t-liem, yet they cannot on lliat account secure protection from the con.sei|uences of 
their acts as heing of unsound mind. 

The IJev. Mr, Fourmond, who was one of the cleriry who met for the pur|iose spoken 

of.liy the ]{ev. Mr. Andre, sliows that the. conclusion they came to, was (. e to, liec-auso ' 

they thought it the more charitable one. leather than .say he was a >.'reat criminal, they 
wi)uld say he was insane. The \ lews the a|)))ellant professed respect i 0:4 the Tiinity, the 
H<rly Spirit, the Viiijin Mary, the authriritydf the clerj»y, and other matters were, wliat 1 
shocked these gentlemen. l$ui here.^y is not insanity, at least in t\w legal'aml medical 
senile of the term. • 

The ifiost ))Ositive evidence as to in.sanity is given hy Mr. IJov, tlie medical supe- 
Tinter.dent of He.iupfut a.sylum, in which ajipellant resided- for ninefeen months about 
ten vears ago. JUit his evidence is given in sucly an uiisatisfai^tdry way, so vaguely, and 
with sucli an evident effort to avoiil answering plain and direct i|Uestions, as to lender it 
■to mv mind exceedingly unreliable. The other medieal «itnes.>\\ho sjieaks to hi.» insanity 
is l)r. Clark, of the Toronto a.syliim. He .says; "Thi' prisoner is ci'rtainly of in.sane 
mind," but he (pialities that o]iinion by ja-efacing it with the stati iiient, ••assuming that 
he was not a malingeier." And even he .says : •• 1 think he was i|Viite ca])able of distin- 
guishing right from vyrong." Against the evidence of tliese^ gentlemen there is that o^ 
Dr. Wallace, of the Haiiiilton asylum, ami Di. . J ukes, the senior surgeon of the mounted 
police force, both of wliom are (juite positive in giving opinioii.s of the appellant's sanity. 

It was contended that the very fact that he, a man who iiad seen the world, could 
ever hojie to succeed in a rebellion, liml contend successfully with the force of the Do- 
minion, backed as that would be, in case of need, l)y all the power of Kngland, was in 
itself, conclusive proof of insanity. I!ut the evidence of .several witnesses, specially of 
Captain Young, shows that he never had any idea of entering seriously into such a i-on- 
test. The a]>pellant t(jld that witness that he was ilbt so foolish as to imagine that he 
couhl wage war against Canada and Britain. His plan, a.s he detailed it, wi*s to try and 
capture at puck Lake, Major Crozier and his force of police, alid then, liolding them iu;' 
liostage<^wm pel the government to awede to his demands. What these were he had 
alreadyTold the Rev. .Mr. Andre -81 OO.tXjO, or in cash .<:b'>,ljt)(», and if he could not get 
even that, then as much as lie could. Having failed to cajiture .Major Crf)zier, he ho|>ed 
to draw into a snare (icneial Mi'ddletun and a small force, in order t() hold them as hos- j 
tages for a like j)Uii)ose. The lighting which actually took placo was not the means by j 
which he had hoiied to secure his ends. The Ke\. Mr. I'itblado gives evidence similar/ 
to tiiat of Captain Young. "•'^ <* 

Certainly the e\idence entirely fails to relieve tin; appellant from responsibility foil, 
liis conduct, if the rule laid down by the judges -in reply to a i|uestion put to tiiem byV 
the House of Lf)rds, in MurXanliti-i,')! Ci(se, 10 (:']. iV- Fin. 2Ulj, be the sound one. TiiatJ 
rule was thus expressed :■•• Notwitlistanding the party accu.-ed did the act comjihtined of,f 
with a view, under the influence of insane delusion, of redressing or revenging .some sup-'i 
posed grievance or injury, iH;-of producing some public benelit, he is nirverthel<>.ss punish- 
able, according to tin; natureJof the crime committed, if he kii(;w at the time of commit- 
ting such crime that he was fUiijig contraiy to law ; by which exj)re.ssion we mean, the 
law of the land." This lias, I believe, ever since it was laid down, been regaided as the 
sound and correct rule of law on this subject. 

In my judgment- a new trial must be refused, and the conviction allirmed. 



i 



191 

KiLLAM, J. — I concur fully in the conclusions of my brother-jud^'es and iu the 

• reasons siipportiui,' the same, witli the exception, perhai)s, of holding somewhat different 
ojiinions from some of tliose expressed liy the Chief Justice as to the etieet of the sub- 
section of the 7(itli section of tlie Xortli-West Teiritoiics Act, ie(iuiiiug full notes of the 
eviilence to he taken upon the trial, and as to the form of the charge in (juestion. Were 
it not for the importance of the case, and that a mere formal concurrence in the judg- 
ments of the othur members of the. Court might appear to arise to some extent from 
some disinclination to consider fully and to discuss the important ((uestions that have 
heen raised, I should rather have felt inclined to say merely that I agree with the 
opinions which those judgments ex]>ress. 

What I shall add has been written after having had a general idea of the views of 
my brother-judges, but princijially before I had an oppo,i'tunity of perusing the full ex- 
pression of their views, and with d desire to present some views upon which they might 
not touch, rather than with tlie idea' that their opinious required to be difFerf-utly ex- 
presse(|. 

I need not recapitulate the facts of the case or the proceedings taken, and 1 %vill 
refer to the statutes less fully than if I were delivering the sole judgment of the Court. 
■ The prisoner tirst ])leaded to the jurisdiction of the Coutt before which he was 
arraigned, and to this plea counsel for th« Crown tlemurred. Tlie decision of the Court 
allowijig tilt! demurreriforms one of the grounds of this appeal. The judgment on this 
,^lemurrer appears to' have been based upon the decision of this Court in K ister Term last, 
in the CJisit of lifiiinn v. Coinur, in which tin? prisoner appealed against a conviction for 
murder llA' a couit constituted exactly as in the present instance. I was not present 
uj)on the hearing of the appeal in that ca.se, and judge of |he points rai.sed only from the 
report in the.-iM.\srroii.\ L.vw RKt'oUTs. From that report it does not appear that the 
jurisdiction of the Court was .so much objected to i^the mode in which the piisoner was 
charged with the otl'ence, it being contended that he should In' tried only upon an indict- 
mejit f<'iund by a gnind jury, ofa charge maile upon a coroner's in(iuest. It seems, not- 
withstanding that decision, still to be open to^ie ]>risoner to ipiestiou the jKiWer of Par- 
liament to establish the Court f<U' the trial of the otfence charged against hiui. 1 mean 
that the point is not vet fi n Jinlirdtd so far as this Court is concerned. . Kven if it were 
so, in the event of am|-Hew argununif of importance being addui-ed by the present or any 
other ajipellant, it <?<7iild^be (piite competent for this Court, though nV>t for the Court 
* below, to reconsider the decision. 

The authority of the PtH'liament of Canada to institute such a Court, and parti- 
cularly to do so {(IV the trial of a iiei-son ui>on a chai-ge of hi:,'h treason, is now denied : 
and it is also contended for the prisoner that the statute was not intended to jiroviile for 
the trial of a charge of that nature. It has bei-n argued that the powers <if the Canadian 
Parliament are delegated to it by the Imperial Parliament, and that they must be consi- 
dered to haveTieen given s\ibj6ct to the rights. guaranteed to I'.ritish subjects by theCouif 
mon Law of England, Magna .(.'liarta, the Bills of Rights, and many •statutes enacted by 
the Imperial Parliament, among which rights are chiinujd to be the right of a party 
'"jaqcused "of crime to a trial by a\jury of twelve of his i)eers, who must all agree-in their 
^ wnlict before he can be convicted, and the right of a party accused of high treason to 
>' certaiinsafeguards •jirovided in cmniection with the proi-edure upon his trial. It is also 

• argued that high treason is a crime siii (jfwrin : that it is an ort'ence against the sover- 
eign authority of the state ; and that it must be presuaned, notwithstanding the pryvisions 
of the Hritish North Ameiica Acts and the other Acts gi\ ing the Parliunieut of Canada 
aiJthor.ity in the North- WesfTerritories, that the Imperial Parlianunt still reserved the 
right to nnijcv laws respecting high treason and the mode of trial for that otleuce ; and 
also that the^^Wftvisions of the Act i'-i \ ic. c. L'."), s. 7ti, are inconsistent with enactments 
of the Imperial Parlianu'nt, ainJ therefore inoperative. There can be no doubt that the 
Imperial Parliament has full ))lwer to legislate away any of the rights claimed within 
Great Hritain and Ireland. Its position is not in any way analogous to that of the 
Legislatures, either State or Federal, under the Constitution t)f the I'aiiteil States, and 
the Atnerican authorities cited by counsel for the prisoner can have no application. 



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There is no power unfler the British Constitution to question the authority of Pivrliiunent. 
It may yet luiveto l)e considered whether it has so etteotually <;iven up its powers of 
le<;islation in re;,'ard to tlie internal afliiirs of Canada, l)y the Hritisli North America 
Act and soniH otlier statutes, that it cannot resume them ; whether, in ease of a conHict 
between tlie Parliament of Canada and tlie Imperial Parliament, the Courts of Canada 
ai-e hound by ti»e enactments of the one or the other ; but these are questions which need 
not now be decided. It is true tliat the Parliament of Canada is the creature of statute, 
and that its powers cannot be sreater than the statutes expressly or impliedly bestow 
uj)on it, but there has been no attempt by the Imperial Parliament to take away or to 
encroacji upon the powers niven to tlie Parliament of Cauachi, and we have nothing to 
do at present with speculations upon the eflect of such an attempt. The British North 
A)nerica Act, ISO", be>riiis with the recital that the Provinces of' Canada, Nova .Scotia 
and New-Brunswick " liave expressed their desire to be federally united into one 
Dominion under the (.'i-own of the I'nited Kinj^dom of (ireat Britain and Ireland, witli 
a constitution similar in jirincLjile to that of tlie I'nited Kiuf^dom." By section 1) tlie 
executive {government aiul authority of and nver Canada are declared to lie vest<nl in the' 
Queen. I'nder section 17 there is '"one Parliament ' for (Aiuaila, consist ini,' of the 
Queen, an rp))er'l{<<use — styled th<' Senate — and the House of Commons. By section 
IS the i)rivilei,'e.s, innnunities and jKjwers of the Senate and House of Ccjmmons are to be 
. such as are from time to time defined l)y the Parliament, but so as not to exceed tlicjse of 
the British House of Commons at the passinj; of the Act. 

It thus appears that the Pailiament of Canada is not, within its lei,'i.slative powers, 
placed in an inferior position to that of ]>ritain. The Sovereijin form as inte-jial jiurt of 
the Canadian as of tlie British I'arliament. the K.xecutive authority is vested in tliH 
Queen. So far as relates to her internal ati'airs, Canada stands in a ]>osition of eijual 
dignity and importance with the I'nitid Kioicdom, and, exce|it in so far as the action of 
the Sovereijjn may be indirectly controlled by the Imperial Parliament, Canada stands 
in this respect rather in the position of a sister kinfjdoni than in that of a dependiMicy. 

It is ])rincipaily by the Dlst section that the lej^islative authority of tlie Canadian ' 
Parliament is defined ; and under this section it can " make laws for tli^ peace, order an<l 
good government of Canada," in relation_to all matters not ccjmliij; within the classes of 
subjects assigned exclu.-ively to the Legislatures of the Provinces. 15v a ]iortion of 
section 14<i provision is made for the 'admission by Order in Council of Ituperts Land 
and the North-Wcst Teiuitories upon addresses from the Canadian Houses of Parliament, 
ajid under this provision and under the Rupert's Land Act, .'H and-.'iu' Vic. c. 10.5, anil 
the British North America Act, 1S71, HI and .b'l A'ic. c. 1'8, the North-West Territories 
have been added to the Dominion. By these two latter Acts the jurisdiction and 
powei-s of the ■Parliament of Canada are enlarged, both as to the territory over wliich 
they may be exercised and the subjects upon which laws may be enacted. There are no 
Provincial Legislatures (except in Manitoba) to share in the legislation, and there is no 
qualification of or exception from the powei- of legislation "upon all matters and subjects 
relating to the " jjt'ace, order and good government" of Her Majesty's \subjects and 
othexs in these added territorie.s. Over tlie.se territories and with_the addition of these 
subjects of legislation the I'arliament of Canada is in the same position 4s it iii:«S'nver the 
llojninion when first foiiiie<l,and in re.s])ect of the subjects of legislation committe4_ to it 
by the liiitish North America Act, 1S67. - . ■ ■ 

The American^ theory of constitutioiial-govemnientis, that the legislatures are com- 
posed of delegates from the peojjle, and that certain rights and fwwei-s only are committed 
to them, and that the peojde have retained to tliemselves certain riglits necessary to the 
free enjoymfent of life and liberty which the legislatures have been given no power to inter- 
fere witli; and it is now attempted to apj)ly the terin "delegated " t« the bestowal by 
the Imperial upon the Dominion Parliament of the powers of legislation conferred by the 
Confederation and itlier Acts, and in this way to introduce the same theory into tlie 
consideration of our constitution. The principle of the British Constitution is, howtf^r 
that the people of tlie State, the three estates of realm, composed of the Sovereigiij" thft 
Lords and the Commons, are all assembled in Parliament, and that the enactments of* 



'^ 198 , 1 ^ 

Parliament are those of the whole nation, and not of delegates frointhe people. ^Froni 
this necessarily follows the complete supremacy of Parliajnent, its power to legislate away 
the rights guaranteed l>y Magna Charta, the Bill of Rights, or any enactments of Par- 
liament or charters of the Sovereign. As is saidibyXiord Campbell in Logmi. vs. Murslem, 
4 Moore P. C. Cas. 296 : " As to what has been said as to a law not being binding if it 
lie contrary to reason, that can receive no countenance from any court of justice what- 
ever. A court of justice caiuiot set itself above the legislature. It must suppose tliat 
what the legislature has enactarfis reasonable, and all, therefore;, that we can do is to try, 
and/Knd out what thelegislature intended." ,^ - ( 

As_^liis Dominion was intended to be formed "with a Constitution similar in prin- 
ciple to that of the Vnited Kingdom," having a Parliament" not of-nn inferior character, . 
but of the dignity and imjiortance to which I have referred; there can be doubt that, in 
this respj'ct, it stands in the same position as the Imperial Parliament with regard to the 
StrtTject mattei-s upon which it may legislate. That thi.? is so has been determined by 
judirial decision. Mr. Justice Willes, in. I'hiUijix \f.. Eijr^\,. K. C l^. I!. "JO, says :"-A 
confirmed Act of the local Legislature, whether in a seltU-Jror coni|Uered colony, has, as 
to matters witliiu its competence and the limits of its jurisdiction, the operation and force 
of sovereign legislation, t^iough subject to lie controlled by the Imperial Parliament."' In 
the (SihUihi- W'\U r^-v.-,/!',! ()jr. .'iSl', Draper, C. J., having reference to an -Vet of the 
Provincial Legislature of (Tiitaiio, says : " As in England it is a settled principle that the 
Legislature is the supreme power, so in this Province I apprehend that, within the limits 
mapped out by the authority wliich gave us our present constitution, the legislature is ' 
tlie supreme power."' This view of the position of the Provincial Legislatures is upheld 
by t lie Privy Council in Ihiihif \a. Thf Qiin'n, L. Pi. il App. Cas. 117. In V(tliH vs. 
Lnnijlois, 3 Suin (.'. U. 1, Ritchie, C. J., says: " I think tlmt the Briti.sh Xorth America 
Act vests in the Dominion Parliament plenary power of legislation, i4i no way liuiited or 
circum.srribed, and as large and of the ^ame nature and e.xtent as the Parliament of 
<ireat Uritaiii, by wiiom the power to legislatti was conferred, itself had. The Parliament 
of Ureal Itritain clearly intentled to divert itself of all legislative power o\er this &vibject 
matter, and it is eipially clear that what it ilixested itself of, it conferred wholly and 
exclusively upon tjie Parliament of the Domiillon.' .\nd this doctrine of a delegation of 
powers cannot be more ajitly met than in the judgineiO-of the Privy Council in Itiijina 
vs. Murali. L. K. ;i App. Cas. f<(<"J, referred to by niy brother Taylor. The iollowing 
rejnarks of Lord Selborne are so applicable that I must rejieal them. He says (p. it04): 
'■'^he Indian LegislatureNias powers expres.sTy limited I>y the Act of the Imperial Par- 
liament, which created it, and it can of course ilo nothing beyond the limits which circum- 
scribe those powers, liut when aclil^g within those limits it is not in any sense an 
agent or delegate of the Imjierial Parliament, but has and was intendetl to have plelHiry 
jiowers of legislation, as large and of the same nature as those of Parliament •itself."' 
« I take it that the plenary powers of legislation conferreil upon the Parliament of 
Canada include the right to alter or n-peal prior Acts of the Imperial Parliamenr upon 
subjects upon wliich the Canadian Parliament is given power to legislate, so far as the 
internal government of Canada is concerned. The powers which the Imperial Parlia- 
ment alone could formerly exercise upon these subjects in our North-West, whether by 
making laws entirely new, or by re]ieal or amendment of existiiijg laws, our Parliament 
can now exercise. S'or do I think that the Im)ierial Act, 28 it |"_'y Vic. c. Li, is incon- 
sistent w ith that view. I'nder .section 2 of that Act, " Any Colonial law which is or 
shall be is any respect repugnant to the provisions of any Act of Parliament extending 
to the (/olony to which such law may relate, or rejiugnant to any order or regulation 
made i{juler authority of sucli Act of Parliament, or having iu the Colony the force and 
efiFect or&uch .AxJt^Jshall be rea<l subject to such Act, tJrder or liegulation, and shall to 
the extent Tif such repugnancy, but not otherwise, be and remain absolutely void and 
inoperative." This is not in aiiy sense an Act of Interpretation of Imperial Statutes, 
which is to be considered as part of and to be read with Acts of the Imperial Parlia- 
ment, luul if it is repugnant to the British North America. Xct,^iiiS~i , anil if by the 
latter Act powers are given to the Parliament of Canada without the limitation iuiposed 

. 13 



194 . 1 

liy the former Act, tlie British North America Act,fcjJ)eiiig the later one, must prevail. 
But even without this view, I cannot think tliat wie repuf^nancy referred to is such as 
would be involved Iiy a» amendment or repeal of an Act of the Imperial Parliament 
upon a subject U|)on which plenary jiowers of le;;islatioii were subseiiueiitly ^iven to the • 
ParliamPiit of (,'anada. There could only be considered to be re))U;;n.incy within the 
meaning of the Ai't if it ap]ieaied by the Imperial Act tliat it was to remain' in force 
notwithstanding any«8ubse(|uent action of the colonial It^gislature. or if it were enacted 
after the plenary |)Owers of legislation were granted, and were thus shown to be intended 
to override any Act which the colonial legislature had passed or might tliert-after pass. 
It will be observed also that it is only an Act of Parliament " extending to' the Colony " 
to_which reference is made in the section cited ; an<l by the first si-ction of the Act, in 
construing the Act, "An Act of Parliament Or any ])rovision thereof,'^- it* only to be 
'said to " exten<l to any colony when it is made a]i|)licable to the colony by tln^ express 
words or necessary intendment of any Act of Parliament." And by section-;}, " No Co- 
lonial law shall be deemeil to have been void or inoperative on the ground of rejiugnancy 
to the law of England, unless the same shall I»e repugnant to the |)n>viM(ins of .some such 
V Act of Parliament, Order, or Regulation iis aforesaid."' Thu.^ it was evidently not the 
intention to exclude the .Colonial legislatures from m.ijiing laws inconsi.stent with Uio.se 
which may have been enacted by the British Parlianieut for Brit.iin or tlu^ ITiitwl 
Kingdom j>articularly, and which niiiy be in force in the^olony sohdy by virtui- ot the 
principle that the British subjects settling therein carrieil with them the laws of Biftain, 
or tha£ by comjui's^; the laws of Britain came in fon'c. By the tifth .seciion of Jliis .same 
Act, " Kvery c(jlojiial legislature .shall have and be deemed at all times to:hav<^ had 
full power within its jurisdiction to establish ci/urts of judicature, iTnd to aboli.sh and re- 
constitute the sam|B, ;tnd to alter the constitution tfiereof, and to make ])r(ivl.si()n fnr the 
a^Jministration ofi justice therein. ' It must surely, then, not have been inleifcled that 
such a legislature should be limited in its establishi(fi*iit iff the.>e courts, a^ul in its 
regulation of the procedure therein, to courts, constituted as tlio.se of Knglaild, and a 
procedure similar to th at whi ch Parliament has thought proper to estalilish foi- Hnglish 
Courts, or to a jury system which can be ti-aced back to the early ages-of English history, 
or even t.o trial by jury at all. , ' 

-Nor can 1 see any reason to suppose that^it was iif5t intended tlmt the Parl'iainent 
of Canada sd)ould not have puwer to legislate regarding the crime of treason in (janada. 
It certainly seems to be given when j>ower is given to make laws for the peace, order 
and good government of (.-'anada. Even jurisdiction to declare what shall be ami what 
shall not be acts of trea.son, when connnitted within Canada, against the |)erson of the 
Sovereign herself, ' might .safely 4>e committed to the Parliament of Canada wliiui the 
.Sovereign is a part of Parliament, and has also'power of disallowance of Acts, even after 
they have been assented to in her name bjr the tiovernor (JeneraY The ]>ro]irietv or 
impropriety of providing for the .selection of a jury by a stipendiary magistrate appoiiJMk 
.by the Crowir'.to hold oltice during pleasure, of reducing to so small a numbei'l^| 
peremptory challenge.s, and other pi'ovisions relating to the constitution of the i-ourt ai^l 
the mode of procedure to whfch objection has been made, is for Parliament and- not for 
the Courts to decide. We can only decide whether Parliament has, as I think it clearly 
apjiear/i that it has, even without the Rupert's Land Act, full power to constitute courts 
and to determiiie their method of procedure. With the provision in the Ru))ert's Land 
Act, authoi;izing the Parliament of Canada " to constitute such courts and otHiers as 
may be neces^iry for the peace, order and good government of Her .Majesty's Subjects 
and Qthei-s " in the North- West Territories, it does not ap|>ear that tht*e can be any 
doubt that such courts are to be constituted with power to try a charge of high treason, 
as well as any other charge. ! 

That the Canadian Parliament intended that the Court constituted under the North- 
West Territories Act of 1880, section 7ti, sub-sections 5 and following sub-.sections 
should have power to hear and try a charge of treason, tliere can be no doubt. After 
proxision is made for the trial of certaiil charges in a summary way, without a jury, the 
provision ill sub-section 5 "is tliat\"/M all other crimittai casen (which must include a case 

■ . ' . V, 

. '■ ' . . ■ ■■ ''■ ■ ' - ^ , 



f 



105 



fiixli ti-Qiison) the stipendiary iijafjistratejind a justice of the peace, with the intetven- 

of a .jury of six, may try «;»// change, against any persoii or persons ior^tny crime " 
licli must inchuU^ tlie urinip of tr^^son). 

.Sul)-section 10 ])rovi(les tliat "any person arraigned for treason of felony may chal- 
/enge prreni))torily and wiflioiit cause not more than six<jurors." It was remarked that 
/this is the only mention of treason in the Act, but it was the only occasion for its Vieing 
rspecialiy mentioned; In view of the peculiar right of challenge in a case of treason, 
under the laws of England, it was important to jilace it beyond doubt, by sjiecial men- 
tioii, that in a ca«e of treason as in any otiier case the number of peremjitory challenges 
was to be limited to six. Tlie wording of the sub-section may not be strictly correct, as 
not lecognizing that treason is a felony, but th(^ subosection is not on that account of any 
less'iniportahce as sho«ing the intention to give to the court jurisdiction over a charge 
of treason. 

I cannot agree wi+h the argunn^nt of counsel for the Crown, that an objection to 
the inforniatijin is not o|icii on this ajipeal,' on account of the prisoner having pleatled to 
the cliaige. He demurred to tiie cliarge, and his <lenuirrer being oviMruled lie was 
obliged' to |ilead. Tliere is no indictment, and I do not think that an olijectiiui |o the 
charge need bt! by a formal deniuircr. In fact, it appears th;ii the proceedings i|iay be 
of the most informal cliaracter. tjnder section 77, "a |)er.son convicted of an ott'ence 
]>unishalp|e iiy death " has a right of ajipeal to tliis court, which lias juri-.tliction " to con- 
linn the conviction ijr to order a new trial. There can be -no itppeal until there has 
been a conviction, and I Cannot see that (lie prisoner should be prevented from making 
ityUy ]ioint that he may raise in ^ny way before tiie court below the subject of a[i[>eal. Jf 
a new trial should in any case be granted on the ground of a defect in the charge, it 
would undoidilWIIv be allowed to the prisoner to withdraw his plea when he should be 
again brought up bn' trial, if this were considere^l necessary in order to give eti'ect to t^e 
<ibjection. Indeed, it Tippears tojne tliat this woidd not be necessary, for I am of opinion 
th& uiMin a new trial, everything must be begun </" iiora, and the prisoner asked to plead 
agiini. There is no ciuiit continuing all the time befoi;e which he has jileaded ; there 
must be a new court established for tlie trial of each "charge, and the procec^dings upon 
the liist trial cannot be incorporated with tho.se upon the .second. 

In my opinion, it is not necessary that i*. •• charge,' within the nuMiiing of sub- 
section •">, should be made on oath before the court having the jurisdiction to try the 
charge. l!y .sectiitn 7tj, the stipendiary magistrate is given the " magis;erial~n4ad ■ other 
funciions of a justice of the-^ieace,' and jiower to •• hear and determine a~ny charge 
against any persoji ' in the manner set out in the various sub .sections of tiie secti/>n. I 
take it that the "cliarge ' referred to in the ,Tth subsection is one laid before fiini by 
information, as before a justice of the peace, to ]>rocure the- committal of a-]>arty for 
trial. The charge having been so made hi^ has to summon the jury and ])i'(,>cure the at- 
tendance of a justice of the peace, and before the court so constituted the cluirge is to be 
tried. This is what has been done in the present instance. 

The remaining objection pf law to the convii^tion is to the. method of taking the 
notes of the evidence, I cannot agree in the view oliat the clau.se reijuiring full notes of 
the evidence £y»d other proceedings to be taken uponjthe trial is directory merely. Wliether 
the notes are to^be taken merely for transmission to the minister of Justice, as required 
y tlie 8th sub^section, or with a view also to use upon tlie a})peal allowed, it i.s equally 
iiportaiit tliat they be taken. If it is only with a vi^v to their transmission to the 
linister, as the Kth sub-section also provides for the postponement of the execution of a 
sentence of death until the pleasure of the (iovernor has been coniinunicated to the 
Lieutenant Governor, it is an important part of the procedure at the trial tha^the iigtes 
of evideiu;e be taken in order that the action of tlie KyecuSive may be based upon the real 
facts proved; almost, if not quite, as important as that the evidence should be (laid pro- 
perly before the jury itself. I should not hesitate to adju<lge. illegal a conviction of a 
capital ott'ence shown to have been oVitained upon a trial so cimducted that these facts 
could not be properly laid before the Executive by the notes of evitlence, for which the 
statute provides, taken down during the progress of tlie trial. 



) 



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196 



1. 

s 



It appears hyj the certificate of the magistmte tliat the only full notes of t 
evidence takcH— a* the tiial were taken liy " short-haf'ifl reporters " appointed Iiy the ni 
gistrate. Althot^h it is not so stated, I think that we may assume that these note 
were taken in wliat is known as short liand. Omnin pi-iiKutninilur ritr i'»si' tirlii is- a 
.maxim aj)plicalile as well in criminal as in civil matters, and if we cannot make such au 
assumption we must assume them to have been in the ordinary form of \vritin<;, or at 
least in such form of writing as would satisfy" tlie statute. The statutory proxlsion is, 
that "full notes'' are to he taken "in writinj;." The very definitions of the words- 
■ "writing," and " to write," are sufficient to show tliat tiie metliods of recording language 
covered by the word "stenography," come within the terii^ "writing." The very deriva- 
tion 6i the' word " stenography " shows it to mean a mode or modes of writing. " Steno- 
graphy" is a generic term >vhich eml)races every system of shorthand, whether basetJ" 
Ujxjii alphabeti(^ phonetic, or hieroglyphic principles. There are advantages aiid these 
advantages both in steiiograjjhy and in ordinary wilting for the purpose of reporting tHe 
, evidence given orally in a court of justice. The magistrate is not obliged to take the 
notes himself; he is authorized by the statu^ to cau.se it to be done by another or othep*. 
It has not been the practice .so far as I kni<w, in any court in Canada to take down 
rej-hatiiii (juestion and answer in ordinary writing, and that could not be presumed to be 
required. If it is not, but the notes are taken in narrative form, their aicuiiiey depends 
'largely on the ability of the rej>orter hurriedly to apprehend the eliect of (piestiou and 
answer and throw tlieni together so as properly to .set down' the idea of the witniss. Any 
system by which (juestion and answer are given n, hi (fun is certainly more likely to be 
accurate than this method, notwitb.standing the chances of erroi- .suggested by Mr-. Ewart. 
The short hand system of the-»;eporter may be .something wliirli himself alime can under- 
stand, it maybe a .system which is known to many, and it may be that his notes can be 
r«^d by many. I think that we are not entitled to a.ssuiiie, for tlie pur]«>se of holding 
the conviction illegal, that' in the present instance it w:as a system understo.id by th.- 
j'eporter.alone,.even if that assum|ition should ])ri)perly leail to that conclusion. 
^ The use of short hand reporteis in the loiirts had been in vogue fOr' a consider.il >le 
time in .more than one ot tile Pr<ninces when the North-We.st Territorie,s .-Xct of 18S0 
was pa.s.sed ; aiid when Parliament provided only for tlie taking of the notes '• in writing," 
witiiout any further limitation of such a general woid, it niay be well under-^timd to ii.ive 
had in view a cla.ss or method of writing which was in such general use. 1 have felt the 
more satisfied in cfuning to this conclusion, as it has not been suggested that the 
prisoner has been put under any disadvailtagi- by the system adopted tor reporting the 
evidence' and proceeding.s, or that tlie report of the evidence or jmn-eediugs i.s in any 
resjject inaccurate. { ' 

The ituestion of in.sanity is raised upon tliis appeal as a ((uestion of fact only. No 
objectioij has been made to the charge of thejiiagistrate to the jury. The principles laid' 
down by the courts of L'pper Canada, uncler the Act wJiich authorized the granting ot" 
new trials in criminal esises, and vi'kiiJiJiave been refern^r to by my brother Taylor, 
a,j)pear to me to be tlio.s6 which sjhould govern this court in hearing and determining 
appeals from convictions- in the Korth- West Territories upon (juestions of fitt, except 
that it is hardly accurate to say that the court will not undertake to determine on wha 
side is the weight of evidence, bilt oidy if there is evidence to. go tr) the jury. TL , 
hardly applies in a case like the ptesent. The presumption of law is that the prisoi.'r' 
is, and was, sane. The burden o^ jiroof of insanity is upon the defence. Afr Xayhten' g 
case, 10 CI. At Fin. -'04 ; Jiei/iiia m Slukm, .'! C. A.' K. lf<5 yjffi/iiia v. Liiijlim, 4 Cbx C. C. 
149. Without evidence to go th the jury, the prisoner caiuiot be acfputted upon the 
plea of insanity. If there is in such a case to be any appeal after a conviction, it nuist 
be on the ground that the evidence is so Overwhelming in favDr of the insanity of tlie i 
prisoner that the court will feel that there has been a miscarriage of justice — that a poor, j 
deluded, irresponsible being lias been adjudged guilty 'of tlial of which he cOuld not be 
guilty if he were deprived of the' power to reason upoii the act complained ui, to deter- 
mine by reason if it was right or wrong. - / 
Certainly, a new trial should not be granted if the evidence were sucli that the jurj 






'.<»-■* 197 

' \ ■' 

juld reasonal)ly convict '^r acijuit. Mr. Leiiiieux laid fjreat stress upon the fact th»t 
|-he Jury accoiiipaiiied their verdict witli a recoinniendation to mercy, as showing that 
tliey thouglit the prisoner insane. I cannot set^ tliat any ihiportance can lie attached to 
•this. I have read very carefully the report of the charge of the niajjistrate, and iC 
appears to have lieen so clearly put that the jury could have no doubt of their duty ill 
ca.se they thouglit the jirisoner in.sa^e when he committed the acts in ([uestion. They 
•could not have listened to iliat cliarge without understanding fully that to bring in a 
verdict of guilty was to declare emphatically their dislielief in the insanity of the 
j>risoner. The recomiiiendation may be accounted for in nianV ways not connected at 

all with the (piestion of th<i sanity of the prisoner. . n 

The stipendiary magistrate adopts, in his charge to the Jury, the test laid down in r\ 
MiirXiiiihteit's case, 10 CI. it F. 1'04. Although this rule was laid down by the leading 
judges of England, at tlie time, to the House of I'^ords, it was not so done in am- jiarti- 
cular case whicli was before that tribunal for adjudication, and it could hardly be 
cdusidered as a decision alisolutely binding upon any courl. I should consider this 
court fully Justified in departing from it, if good ground wf*re shown therefor, or, if, even 
without argument of counViel against it, it appeared to the court itself to be iuipropefas 
applied to the fa<4^_>rt a particular case. In the present instance, counsel for the pri- 
soner do not attempt to impugn the prfipriety of the rule, and in my ojiinion they could 
not .successfully do so. It hiis never, .so far as I can find, been overruled, though it may 
to some e.vteijt have been (picitionc-d. This rule is, that "notwithstanding the party did 
th(^ act comptiiined of with a view, under the influence of insane delusion, ofivdressing 
or rtivenging ^omi; sup)io.sed grievance o.r injury, or of producing some public benefit, he 
is nevertheless ]nniisliable according to tlie nature of the crime connnitted, it he knew at 
the time of Jionimittinj^ such crime that \u\ acted contrary to_ law.' 

Mr. Justice Maule, on the same occasion, puts it tJius : " To render a )iersou irres- 
ponsilile for crime on account of unsoundness of mind, the unsoundness should, according 
tf> thf law as it has long been understood and held, lie such ai» renderetl hiin incapable 
of knowing right from wrong." 

^^^riie argument for the insanity of the prisoner is based to a certain extent on the 
mm that he was in such a stat^ of mind that he did not know that the acts he was com- 
mitting were-jwrong : that, lie fancied himself inspired of Hea\en, and acting under the 
dirtction of Heaven, and in a holy cause. It would be exceedingly dangerous to admit 
the validity of such an argument for adjudging an accu.sed person insane, partirnlarly 
wiutre tlie olli-nce charged is of such a naturq as that of which this prisoner is convicted. 
/ A man who leads an armed insurrection does so from a desire for murder, rajiine, 
\ n/tilici V, or for jiersoual gain or advanta;;e of some kind, or he does so in the belief that 
Jie 1+as a righteouscau.se, grievances which he is entitled to take up arms 'to have i 

edrcssed. In the latter case, if sincere, he lielieves it to be rij.dit to do so, that the law 
'■ (Jo(! permits, mav, even calls u]ion him, to do so, and to adjudge a man insane on that 
round, would Ik- to open the door to an acipiittal in every case ni which a nuui with an 
HiUf.stJ^elief in his wi-ongs, and that they w ere suthciently grievous t*) wairant any msans 
t secure their redress, should take U]p arms against the cou.-ititiui-d authoiities of the. 
iid. His action was exceedingly rash and foolhardy, but he reiisoned that he could 
vyievda sutHcient success to extort something from the (iovernment, whether for hiiu- 
*''■' or sis foUower.s. His actions were ba.sed on i-easofi and not on insanedelusion. 
'^'•\ It IS true that there were some medical opinions that the iirisoner was in.sane, ba.sed 
""i sni account of his actions and his previous history, Imt the Jury were not bound to 
■(t sutji opinions. The Jury had to listen to the grounds for these opinioii.s, and to 
form their own Judgment 'u]>on them. In my opinion, the evideiK-e was such that the 
Jury wetrUl iu>t ha\e been Justified in any verdict than that which they gave ;. but even f 

if it be arlmitted that they might reasonably harve found in favor of the insanity of the /' 
Jirisoner, it cannot be said that they could not reasonably tind him sane. 

I hesitate to add anytliing to the remarks of my brother Taylor upon the evidence 
•on the question of insanity. I have read over very carefully all the evidence that was 
laid be^re the jury, and I could say nothing that would more fully express the opiiiisns 



r 



198 



vil. 



1 havie formed frt<ni its perusal than wliat. is expressed liy him. , I ajirce witli liim txU ^^ 
in sayiiijfjrhat tliii» prisoner has Iieen ahly and zealously defende(l, an<l that nothing,' tha t,^ 
coufd iiiisist lii.s oase appears toJiive been left untouched. If I eould see any reason ton, 
_ Wlieve ^!iat the jury, whetlier from passion nr prejuiliye, or otherwise, had dec-iiled'.c 
against the wei^'ht of tjie evidence u])on tlie prisoner's insanily, I should desire t'o find n 
that tlie (,'ourt lould so inter|)ret the statute as to he justilitMl in causinj,' the case to lio u 
laid hefore another jury for their consideration, as the only feelinjis we can have towards ; 
a fellow creatnWwho has lieen deprived of the reason which jilaces us iihove the hrutes, 
are sincere pity and ji desire to have some atti'.mpt made to restore him to tljj' full enjoy- 
ment of a sound mind. e 

The prisoner is evidently a nian of moiv than oi-diiiary intelli;;ence, who could have i- 
heen of irreat .service to those of his race in this country : anil if luvwere insane, the, )- 
greatest service that Could he rendered fo the country would he, that he should, if |>o.s- (I 
sibJe, lie restored to that condition of mind which would enalile him" tf) u.se his mental e 
powers and jiis education to a.ssist in ])romotiii;; the interests of that ijiiportant class in s 
the eoinmunity to, which he l>eion;.'s. It is with the deepest regret that I reeogni/.e that t 
the acts charged were conniTitted without any such justitication, and that this Court can- 
not in any way he jdstitied in interfi ring. 

In my judgment, the conviction must he confirmed. 



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TO!) 



APPEAL TO THE PRIAY COUNCIL. 



p. V. No. 1743. 



\ 



CERTIFIED copy of a report of a Cowmittei' of the }IoHon(fjlf the Privy Counrily 
approred by //is E.irelA-ncy the (lOi-ernof General in Cvnncil, <»i the 2oth Sept. 1885. 



ThsTViinniitteo of tlip Privj' Council have had uiidei- consideration a petition from 
Louis Kiel, now undi-r sentence of death at HeyjimCTK the Xorth-West Territories of 
Cauaihi, tlirousrli his counsel, Messrs. Leiiiieux aiuT~l»ltz|)atrick, askin<; that sucli steps 
may he acKipted hy tlie ( lovernor ( Jeneral in Council as will allow liim the necessary time 
to procure an appeal to the Quomi's Most Excellent Majesty in Council from the sentence 
and judj^nient rendered in lii,s case at Iie^'iuji. 

The Minister of Justice to whom the iietiti<Mi was refi'rretl tor imnifdiate action, 
reports with respect to the application for delay in order to allow the prisoner time to 
appeal to the Privy Council, that the' Majjistrate has ]iost]>oned tjie execution until tlie 
I6tlt of ( »ctolier, and he reconiiiien(ls that ^ our Excellency he moved- to communicate 
with the Hi^'ht HonoraMe the Principal >iecretary of State#>rthe Colonies with a view, if 
possihle, to secure an early meetin;^ of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in 
order that tlie (luestion as to whether leave to appeal in this matter will he granted or 
not. shall he determined at the earliest possihle time. ., , 

The Committee concur in the ahove reoomuien()ation of the- Minister of Justice, a^ul 
they suhmit tlie same for approval. ■ , 

(Sigjied) Joiiy J. Mc(!ke. 

/ - <0 1 ' Cl-rk, Prill/ Couneil. 



IX THE PRIVY COUNCIL. 
'Ill appeal from the Court of Queen's Hench for the Pro\ ince of Manitoha, 



en 

o1. 



Dominion of ( 'aiiada. 
Loris lilKL, 

(IhJ , 
The QiEEX, 



■Ap}iell(tnt. 



Regpotidetit. 



rd, "-'ilth and I'-^tlrdays of July la.st, youi: petitiouer 
efore'.i stipendiary mauistrate aittl a justice of the 



,.„,; Queen's Most Excellent Majesty in Council. 

■' '. 
en«lie hiimhlejietition of Louis Hiel sheweth, as follows : — 

^*i"'t. On the L'Uth, -Jlbt, 22nd, L'.Srd, •_• 

havy.,! f,„. {],j, crime of treason l>efore*.i stipendiary maf^istrate aittl a justi 

, .vith the intervention of mi jury of si.x [lersons in the North-West Territories of the 

■ i>omiiiiou of Canada, and liavinj; heeii foun^l f;uilty has Vieeu sentenced to death. 

2nd. ^ our j>etitioner caused art appeal to he taken to tlie court of Queen's Bench 

for the Province of Manitoba, and that cmirt has continued the sentence aforesaid. 

3r(L Your petitioner feels aj^grieved hy the proceediiuis of the said courts for the 

following, aniong.st other rea.sons : , 

1st. The, said stipendiary magistrate and justice had no jurisdiction to try Your 

■■ petitioner for tlie crime' aforesaid. 

2iid. If they Jiad jurisdiction in any ciise of treason, tliere »'as not in the ca.se of your 



200 ^M 

. ' '■■'* 

petitioner, any indictment preferred liy any grand Jury or imjuisition f<Jund l(y anj,. 

coroner s' inquest aj^ainst your petitioner. r ► i > 

. . :5r<l. All iiiforniation wii.s laid afjainst your petitioner, but even if a niero infornmtion , 

was sufficient, that in tli<' cuse of your "p.-titidner was taken before the stipendiary | 

magistrate ahnie wlio liad no jurisdiction at all. 

4th. Tiie evidence at the triiil was not taken down by tlie stipendiary majristrate, 
and by hini.causeil.to \ie taken <lown in writinjL,', as directed by the Statute in tiiat behalf. 
1 I'ith. t'|>on the aj)peal to tlie Court of (^uei'n'.s Jleiuli, your j»<-titioner was iiotjier- 

mitted to be present noi- wen- any of the papers or the record ]iro])erly before the Court. 

•itli. The trial <if your petitioner and the ciifunistances' out of wliich it aro.se ar<^ 
deemed Iiy the people' of Canada to be iii.itters of no ordinary tni|)orlance, have diviiled 
the jiopujation into two opposinj; partiis, and it is Cs^ential not '.only upon these ^'rounds, 
but also from the fact that a lar/e numlier of trials arisin^f out of the, sann' cin-unistanceS , 
are l)ein<^ had liefore the same 'functionaries 'that the, (jjiestion rai.sed by this [letitiou 
should l>e adjixlicated and settled. . [ • 

' _ The petitioner must therefore Jiray : '_ . . 

1st. -That Your .Majesty will be j^raciously jileased to order thiiV your p^Titioner nuiy - 
'have si)ecial leave to ap))eal and be at lilierty to' enter and_ pi-osecute lim appiNil from the 
afore .said sentence, add judunient res]>ectively, and that the said stipendiary' mai,'istrate 
and justice may be'ordeie<l to transmit forthwith tin- transcri]>t of the pi'oci'edin;,'s and 
evidence in the matter to tlie IVi,\ y Council oliic^'. or that Your .Majesty may be jfiaciously 
pleased to make such further or otln 
just and projicr , 

And your petitioner will ex er])i 

(Sijined) 



■r order as to \ oiir .Mjv^csty in Council may appear 
av. A'c. 



F. \ I.KMIKIX, 

Ciis. FiT/i'.\Ti<irK 



t^uebec, Sejitember 1 llh, ISN.'!. 
True copy. 

* Ciis. Fir/l'.^TRK k; 



Nrt. 2i:$. 



(COPY') 

■ C.VNAIH. 

coi.oNhx s'lANLKV TO TiiK i>i;i'i:tv-(;ovi;knoi(. 

Dowi^in;; Strei-t. 



rtikni;; ^trei-t. Ic. 

\ •Jltli «)ctober, J<r 

SiH,. -With reference to luy tele^jr.im ot the •Jl'nd in.stant, 1 have the Iromir for' 
niit t/) you the aci-ompaii_tinn copies of the jiidjiiueiit of the Liirds of the judicinl crP'"i. 
tee of the Pri\y Council, on tl.ie jietition for lea've to appeal of F..ouis Kiel. f'K 



I have, Ac. 



Tlie Deputy-tlovernor. 



(Signed,) l{oiii;HT .U.[ W. IlicKnJ) "*' 

/'ill- ill'' Sirrrliiri/ lil ir 

i j' .; . . " ■ : ■ (ei'i'') 



Judgment .ijfj^e Lords of the Judicial coininittee. of the Privy Council on >.. 
ti ni of Louis Kiel, from the Court of Queen's Iteirch for the Pro\ince of .Manitoba. 

Prksknt : V . 

Tlie Lonl Cliancellor. ' - 

1 .'J Lord Fitzgerald; «r . 

/• Lord MonkswelU 

~ Lord Hobhou.se. 

j I.iord Esher. - . 

Sir Karnes Peafotrk. 



|i 



. ' ' '^^^ ] ' ■ ' . 

TKis"is a petition of Louis Riel, tried in July last at Regina, in the North- West 
Territories of Canada, and convicted of liigh treason, and sentencefl to death, for leave 
to ai>peal against an order of the Queen's Bench of Manitoba, continning that conviction. 

Jt is the usual rule of this committee not to grant leave to appeal in criminal case's, 
except where some dear, de])arture from the re(|uirements of justice is alleged to have 
taken place. Whether in this case the prerogatives to grant an appeal still exists, as 
their Lordsliips have not heard that (piestion argued, they desire neithertn affirm nor to" 
deny, hut they are clearly of opinion that in this case leave should not he given. 

The j)etitic>ner was tried under the provisions of an Act passed by the Canadian Legis- 
lature, providing for tlie administration of criminal justice for those ]K>rtions of the North- 
West Territory of Canada, in which the offence charged against the petitioner is alleged 
to have heen connnitted. No (piestions has been raised that the facts as alleged were not 
jiroved to have taken place, nor was it denied Ix^fore the original tribunal, or before the 
Court of Appeal in Manitoba, that the acts attributed to the jjetitioner amounted to the 
crime of high trea.son. 

The defence upon the facts sought to be established before the jury was, that the 
petitioner was not re.sponsil)le for his acts l>y reason of mental infirmity. , 

The jury before whom the petitioner was tried negatived that defence, and no argu- 
menli has been ]iresented to their Lordships directed to show that that finding <vas other- 
wise Timn)correct. (tf the objections raised on t he f ace of the petition two pkdnts only 
seem tcilie capable fif jilausible or, indeed, intoliigible ex]iressiiin, aui^ they have been 
urged before their Lordshi]vs with as nmch force as was possible, and' as fully and con»- 
l)letely in their Lfiidshi]i s ojiinion as it would have been if lea\e tciiappeal had lieen 
granted, and they havt* been dealt with by the judgments of the Court of Ap|)eal in 
Manitoba witli a patience, learning and ability that leaves very little to \i(- said upon 
them. 

The first point is tliatphe Act itself und<M' which the petitioner was tried was u/lra 
>riri'H the Dominion Parliament to enact. That Parliament deri\ed its authority for- the 
pa.ssing of that Ktatute from the Imperial Statute, ;>4 and S-t Vic. Cliaji. 2S, which 
enacted that the Parliament of Canada may from time to time make provision for the 
administration, peace, order, and good government of any territory not for the time 
being included in any jirovince. 

It is not denied that the place in nuestiou was one in respect of which the Parlia- 
ment of Canada was autliorizeil to make such pi-ov ision, but it appears to be suggestecU, 
that an\\ provision ditti'i'riiig from the provisions which in this country have been yuide 
for admini .;. jieai-e, order and good govermnent cannot, as matters of law, be 

provisions for peace, order and ^ood government in tlieterritDries to which the Statute 
relates, and further that, if a Court of law .should come to the conclusion that a particular 
enactment, was not calculated as matter of fact and jiolicv to secure ]t«ace, order, and 
good government, that they would lie entitlitl to regard any Statute directed, to those 
objects, but which a Court should think likely to fail of that eSeCt, as it/tr<i ci'/Vjf and 
Iwyond the competency of the Dominion Parliament to enact. 

Their Lordships are of opinion tliat there is not 4che least colour for such a 
contention. The words of the Statute are apt to authorize the utmost discretion of 
enactment for the attainment of tlie objects pointed to. Theyare words under which the 
widest de,'partifre from Criminal proceduiv as it is known and practised in. this country 
have been authorized in Her Majesty's Indian Empire./ 

ForiiT^ of procedure unknown to the Knglish common laws ha\e. there been esta- 
blished and acted upon, and to throw the least doubt ujion the validity of powers con- 
\eyed by those words would be of widely mischievous conseijuence. . , 

There was indeed a contention upon the construction of the Canadian Statute, 43 
Vict., Chaj). 2rt, that high treason was not included in the words : '• any other crimes," 
liut it is too tlear for argument, even without the assistance aH'orded by the 10th sub- 
section, that tMe Dominion Legislature contemplated high treason as • comprehended 
within the language employed. ^ " 

Tlie second point suggested assumes the validity of the Act, but is founded upon the 



, ^ 



\y. 



202 N 



\ 



assumption that the Act lias, not been complied with. By the 7th sub-section of the 7(ith 
section it is pro vi'ded. that tlie magistrate sliall take or cause to be taken in writin<; full 
notes of evidence and other proceedin;^ thereat, and it is sugj^ested that tliis provision 
has not beei/cojn plied witli, Iwcause tliough no complaint is made of inaccuracy or mis- 
take, it is said that the notes were taken by a shorthand writer under the authority of 
the magistrate, aii(l by a subse(juent process extended into , ordinary writing intelligible. 
to all. Their Lordships desire to" express no opinion what would have been the effect if 
the provision of the statute had not been complied with, liecause it' is unneces.sary topon- 
sider whether the provision is directory only, or whether the failure to comply witn it 

- , would be grftund for error, inasmuch as they are of opinion that the taking full notes of 
;i jthe evidence' in shorthand was a causing to lie taken in writing full notes of the evidence, 

'. ' , and a literal compliance therefore' with the Statute. 

Their Lordship's will, therefore, humbly advise Her Majesty tliat leave should not 
be granted to jirosecute this appeal. 



nil. 

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Ofig. 



PETITION FOR A MEDICAL CUALMI88IOX. 

^ P. C. 2020. ' , - ' ■ " - . 

[Trarislatioti^. , ^ ■ 

TO HIS EXCELLENCY : . ' 

The HUillT ItONORADLE IlENRV CHARLES KEITII PETTY-FITZMAURIC'E, MARQCIS OP 
LAXSOOWXK, IJOVEnNOU-CKXEHAL OF THE DOMINION' OF CANADA, iVC, itC, itc. 

The Pititioii of V. X. Liiuicux. iidvorate, of the i-ity of Quclicc, ' 

I ' » Huinlily ifjireseiots : 

That lie liiis acted as one of tlie Counsel of LouLs Kiel, accused and convicted of the 
crime of hi<;li treason, at Roj,'ina, duiini^ the course of tiie month of Au^'iist last ; 

That at the time (if the trial of Louis Kiel it was established tliat tlie latter had 
already heen confined for insanity in certain lunatic asylums viz ; in ln74 in the 
Lonijue-Pointe asylum, at Montreal in l.S7t>, at the Heaujtott asylum, QuehcA! in. 1{<79, 
in a lunatic asylum at Washin<{ton, Tnited iStates. 

That credilile witnesses, amongst whom Revd. Fathers Andre -and Fourinond and 
Hon. t^irles Xolin, and others, have proved, at the trial, that Louis Riel, had before, 
during and after the rising in the Xortli-West, to tiieir own knowledge, <;iven sure and 
positive evidence of insanity hy his deeds, words and ;^enerfcl lieliaviour and that they 
truly heleived that Rlel was not responsible for Ins actions durinj; the time already 
. mentioned. ' ' 

-,. That this evidence of the insanitj' of Riel has been corroborated and .strenj^thened 
by the testimony of two 'lunacy physicians, Messre Roy of Quebec and Clarke of 
Toronto. 

, That Dr Roy has, moreover declared that Riel had been under his immediate care 
durinj; the eifjhteen months for which he had been confined at JSeauport and that Riel 
was then suHering from a mental disorder, or andiitions Monomania called ilej^alomania; 
that from Louis Kiel's antecedent.s,thc evidence made of insane actions and the examination 
of the accused at the time of liis trial, Dr Roy lias sworn that he verily believed that 
Kiel was insane and incapable of discernini^ right from wrong. 

That Dr Clarke has declared under oath that for the same reasons as those used by 
Dr Koy, lie was of opinion that Jtiel was a monomaniac and that he was suHering from 
, a mental disorder which rent' red him incapable of discerning right from wrong, Imt 
that, inasmuch, as he had never seen Riel before the time of the trial, it would have been 
iiecessary for him to examine tlie-jiatient during perhaps a couple of months, in order to 
enable liim to make an exact report as to his mental condition. 

That this insanity has been .so much proved that the jury have been impres.sed by 
proof which has been made of it,, to such an extent that they recomniauded Riel to the" 
clemency of the Court. ^ ! 

That year jietitiort has been informed in a credible manner, that since the verdict 
has been given, the in.sjinity and mania of Riel have eonsidrably increased, and that he 
is actually in.sane and incontrollable. 

Your petitioner, therefore humbly ]>rays that Your Excellency be pleased to appoint 

a medical commission composed of specialists and alieiiist.s, wlio.se duty it will be to, 

examine the said Louis Riel, actually detained in Kegina, in the mounted police niilitary 

, camp, and to asl-ertain th* state of mind and mental condition of jthe said Louis Ki;?l 

'and to report to the authorities ac^cordingly. '. 

And your petitioner will ev«r pray. • ' 

(Signed,) ♦ F. X. Lemiei.v, 



r 



Attorney J'or Lnui* llie[. 



*iy- 



[^Transltitionj. l'^ 

I, Fraxi;ois RWr-physician and surgeon, co-proprietor and Superintendent of the lunatic 
itsyluni at liesiuport, of the city of Quebec, solemnly declare : — 

That all the facts alleged and contained in the above petition are' true. 
And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to l>e true 
and J)y virtue oitite Act passed in the ^Uh year of Her Majesty's Reign intituled " An 
Act for the suppression of voluntary and extrajudicial oaths, " and have signed 

<^ (Signed) F. E. Roy, M. D, 

jSworn before me at Quel>ee this ) 

24th day of October IHHf). J ' , 

(Signed) Alexander Ciiauveau, J. S, P. 



1 



\T fnniilaUo}C\. 

Canada ( 

Prowince of Queliec. ) 



X. .LkMIKI'X, Petitioner for ;i medical c^nnijission to examine into the uientjil state of 
Louis Riel. 

FrAMOIS-X AVI f>J 

Le-jislative As 



J . ^ ■ " ■ * ^ 

I, FRA\<,ois-XAvif>4 Lkmik.i'x, of tlie city of Quebec, advocati', and a member of the 

iiibly of the Province, of Quebec solemnly declare : 

That I was engaged as attorney and advocate for Louis Riel, at the time of his trial 
fdr hiir li tUM son at Regina in tjie c()ur.s(? of the months of July and August last.' That 
s/nce the time that the verdict of guilty was brought against Louis Kiel and the sentence! 
f death ])ronounced ii^aili^t him, 1 have had sojne corn's|iijudfMci- with dili'erent person.s, 
wiio since tliat time li.ivc liiiil fre(|uent relations and interviews witli Louis Riel, and all 
the.se jier.sons have di'cl.iied to your j)etitioner that they truly l«li(^veil that Laijis Kiel 
was insane and tliat his insanity had cmisideraliiy increased siriri- the time of tlie 
verdici.; , , ,,^ • 

That on the ."Ust August last, ueirly a niimth after the verdict, the R/VveroTIfl Pere 
Andre, >Supcrieur des ■< )blats, sent mi- a letter from Regina, in \)liich among ntlierlliings 
lie said as tollows ': 

," My HEAR 3Ik."Lkmikux, ' ( 

" IJy this tinie.you shoukl b(^ in Winnipi-g and in this hojje I se'nd you the.se lines to 
'• .salute you and to wisli yciu success in your praiseworthy attenl]it to save the poor and 
" unfortunate Riel. .Since your departure fi'om Regina I have visited your client rttguhir- 
'• Jy every day. ' ' 

'• The ex|i!frience I have gained of this man liy continual crtntact with him has only 
" contirmed me mye and inoie in tlie opiiiinn ] had .iilready foriiied of him, that he is 
" crazy stnd insii!li(/ (craipu; et toijUe, <( criink) liotli in regard to n^iiglon and to politics. 
'• It is only necess ai y to liear him sjieak of his visions for the reform of the world in 
," regard ti).ifl\''yfli ,ts well as jKjlitics, to be ipjite certain of this unhealthy and crazy 
'• stjite of mini|(r , ■ 

" I have ju>tj)een visiting him, and during an holir he spoke of extraordinary reve- 
lations Inide to hiiijF)3?~'tlie spirit the previous niglit, and that he has been ordered to 
communicate tome and to all the Catholic clergy : "Tlie great cause of sin in the world 
""is tlie revolt of the body against the spirit, it Is because we do not chew our food 
" enough, and by this want of mastication it communicates animal life only to the body 
" -Otrhile by masticating and chewing it well, it spiritualizes the body." 

'• He had been searching for this secret since fifteen years and it had been comiuu- 
nicated to. him but the previous night, ana he was in a state of great joy for having dis- 
covered this means which will prove to be a powerful agent to coiTimunicate spiritual 
life in bodies gradually leaving this world to rise to heaven. 






I: 



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J 



205 i 



While he was speaking he !>»u^c^\ .^j^ stoj'''*'^*'"'^ ™® '"^ hand : " Do you see, says. 
he, l)lood flowing in the veins ; tlie tekgrivfi.i is operating actively, and I feel jt, they are 
talking about nie, and questioning authorities, in Ottawa, about uie." 

It is of siniiliir fantastic visions he speaks with mp every day'. I am convinced 
that -he is not acting^a part, he speaks with a conviction and a sincerity which leave no 
doubt in my mind about the state of. his mind, he has retracted his errors but he believes 
himself to day to be a prophet and irivested with a divine mission to reform the world 
on the day he has spoken to the Court and when I reprove 1 i n for his foolish and extra- 
vagant ideas, he answers that he submits, but that he cannot stifle the'voice that speaks \ 
in him and the spirit that commands him to communicate to the world the revelations 

.*he receives. One must have the ferocious hatred, of a fanatic or the stuj)idity of an idiot, 
to say that Riel is not a fool, becaii.se he is intelligent in other matters, as if history was 
not tilled with such anomalies among certain men who, remarkable in certain subjects, 
have lost the balance which contains intellij^ence within the limits from which it cannot 
escape without losing its ju-ivilege of j?uiding us or niafcin-; hs responsible for our own 
acts. ,- . ) 

' Riel is truly a phenomenon woith studying. He is undm'-niany aspectji remarkable. 
One must know )iim and above all study him clo.sely to fl'nd out tliat he is a prev to an 
invincible delusion, which de]>rivfs of that faculty wliii-li is called cinmiHiH m-nsn and which 
is the eriteiion which Ood has given us to enable us to judge of the goodne.ss or of the 
malice of our owi^act's. Hie! has certainly not the cfmniion sense which can .shew him the 

■bearings of his actions and spe'ciaUy sii"wlit'n rclis^itiH and politics are concerned. These 
are the |)rinci)iles which <;iiidc me in my treatment of him since he is in gaol. Althou<,'h 
his opinions upon religion are greatly ernuieous, I do not hold him responsible and do 
admit him to receive sacraments. And for all that, he often renews tlit^eriors which he 

, has retracted and which he again retracts when I ]ioint out to him his heresies as contrary 
to the dogmas taught by the Hiily-Catholic Church. 

" On the day following such retractation, he talks to nie more ardently than ever 

'" about his revelations and his counniinicatiou with somt*^ angel who honors him with a 
" nocturnal visit." 



k 



I have gone to Regina, about. the eight of September last, for the only purjwsp of 
seeing Riel, who on numy occ^^sions, by letteis and telegrams had bejfged that I should 
go and see him, as he had very important matters to communicate to me, he said. Ihave 
had many interviews witlr him, during which he did not .say one word about his .case 
which had been taken i,n appeiil before the Cqurt of Queen's Bench, in Manitoba, Ifht he 
spoke to me of his mi.ssion, of his projihecies, of his vision.s, and hea\ enly connuuniclitions 
and of the other subjects mentioned in the foregoing extracts of the letter from Father 
Andre * 

And during the long con\ersations which I had with him, I hardly could obtain a 
few words which had even a dim light of common .sense. 

I had seen Louis Riel during aliout a month, at the time fif his trial and I .solemnly 
declare it, at the time when I saw him last (S septendier ultimo) his mental condition 
was greatly altered and his mind had considerably weakened and) I truly believe that' at' 
the date of the Mth September anil up to now, Louis Riel ^as mad and incapible of .dis- 
cerning right from wrong. , 

Such is also the opinion of persons whom I have met at Regina and who have seen 
Riel since his trial. . ^ ' 

' I niake this solemn declaration conscientionsly believing the ssiiue to be true and by. 

virtue of the Act [laesed in tlie ;!7th year of Her Majesty's reij^n intituled "An Act for the 
suppression of \oluntary and extrajudicial oaths.". And I have signed. 

» ' ^ . ■- (Signed) V. X. Le.mieux. 

Acknowledged before nie at Quebec, this lilSth day of October, 188.5. 

(Signed) D. Murray, J. P. 



N 



/ 



206 
LIST OF" PET/t* v^s 




VxViLW' CASE. 



Namk ok Coi'NTV' ML'xiiii'Ai.rrv, &c. 



_ County of Viiuflreuil ) . . . 

;. Three Rivers airii Nicolet 

St. . Jean - H:i|)tiste, Cot^e .St. LoiiLs et 

i .Mite-Eii.l ...... . ..■ i. . .■ 

• liachine .: ; I 

Parish of Vareiiiies .-.. . ;,. .1 

Towiisliip lit' Cii^'eiice, Co. of PrescOtt. . I 

Parisli of St. L:iuri:ut. ,. ^i . ... I 

Coumv of Two .Motiiitaiii.s'. 

City of St. Hyaiiuilie ......,• 

Hatiscaii, St> Pro.s|)^c, Ste. Geueviee . . 
Parish '>t' I'oiiite Claire. ..:....... . . .; 

Whit.-h.iii^x. Y. ..: i.,.;, 

Koxton anil lloxtou Falls.'. 

Pari.sli of St. Narcisse ..'...'........._. 

Yaina<-lnelie, Shawent'jjitn et St. Etienne 

Troi.s Pistoles •..:........, 

lierthier (en liaut) .". ..■..-.>.. . 

. Mitniiolirt, Pro\ ince of. .."■...•.......» 

!St. Fi-aneois-Xa\ ier .'. ■. ... . ; .' . . : .^' . . . 

Isle Hizaiil ] . . .:"/.'. :: . ■ 

.S.t. Jeroiiie, . ■......;: '. . . . 

Three llivers. .' .' .< 




H. McMillan, M,P. 
T. E. ^MetlioS 

\. De.sjardina, M. P . 

Electors . . 

F. X. P.rrault 

Electors' . : . . 



Munii'i])al (.'oiincil . 
( 'itizens , . 



Electors 



Citizens 



E. (ierin . . . 
Electors. . . . 
Citizens. . . . 
Inhaliitants 
Citizens . . . 
Kli'ctors . . 
Citizens . . . 



Llslet . 



.,St; .iiNiJL.Port Joli ..:...... 

t^ueliec. ...,-..,....; 

liinionski 

<'ilira;iM.'HI : 

Fra.serville (Riviere <lu Loup). 

St! Francois (.Montiiia<;ny) . . . 

County of .Montniaj(ny. ...... 

JTotre-DaiiK" il" Mont Carmel . 
■JrJt. -San veur, (jue. : , . . . 

Kiuiouski . ■ ■ ., 

■ Ooatipook 

St.* Paul.....-;. . 

L'Islet 

' County of ^Tissex, Oat . 

Manitoba, Provfnce of ., . . . 
Ht. Etiennj» 

Hplyoke, U. S 

County of Maskinonge. .... 
■County of L'A.s.souiption. . . 
Cap St. lunace. . .......... 

(jaspe aud'Rimouski . : 

lied River, Man '. . 

.Minnesota, U.H. . .■ ?. 

St. John, P. Q. 

Manitoba , i . . . . 



P. 15. Casgrain, >).P. 
Citizens 



: Elect<irs. 
Citizens. 
Electors. 
Citizens. 
(Jouncil . 
(Jitizens. 




Electoi-s. . . 



Citizens. . . .' 

Electors '. . . . 

("itizens. ...,.._...;... 

Electors. . 

Council ..:.....; 

L. Lafrainboise. ........ 

A. L. Desaulniers, M- P- 

Electors 

Citizens. 

Electors '....,.! 

Inhabitaii'ts ; . . 

Residents 

Electors 



y: 



/^ 



/l' 



CASE.— {Contmued.J 




Iberville. P. Q. 

City of Ottawa-. ......' 

County of Morris, Man.- 

Town of Snrel .'■. . 

tJranville, France , 

Slierbrooke 

Ste. tJeneWeve ; 

<iu'AppeUe River. ............. 

Joliette ,..•.., 

Slierbrooke, Conipton . . . , 

Sherbrooke 

Farnhiiin '...'... 

St. Pierre »; . .■ 

(Vanbourne '. ■ 

^'ountv Montniiignv .-.) 



Electors 

French Canadians . 

Electors 

Citizens 

Lucien Dion 

Citizens^ 

Inhabiflmts.l.tlllt 
Half-Breetls 



^ 



i 



■ ::. . 196 ; 4: ■ ' "I. 

f ^' .•■•■•• 

It appears ))y the certificate of tlie ma^istmte that the only full iiotrs of t 
evidence taken at the tiial were taken liy " short-hafid reporters" appointed l«y the ni 
gistrate. Although it is not so stated,j-I think that we may assume that these note 
were taken in what is known a.<) short liauj^ Oniultf prdximntiilur rilf fxnr iirla is- u 
.maxim applicahle as well in criminal as in civil matters, and if we cannot make such an 
assumption we must assume them to have been in the ordinary form of writinj;, or at 
least in such form of writing as would satisfy" the statute. The statutory i)ro\*ision is, 
that "full notes" are to he tak<'n "in writing." Tlie very detinilioiis of thi' words 
• "writing," and " to write," are sufficient to show that tlie methods of recording language 
covered by the word "stenography," con)e within the term "writing." The veYy deriva- 
tion of the" word " stenography " shows it to mean a motle or modes of writing. " Steno- 
graphy" is a generic term which end)races every system of shorthand, whether bas^d 
, upon alphabeti<^ phonetic, or hieroglyphic principles. Tliere are advantages and these 
advantages both in stenography and in ordinary wiiting for the jiur[io.se of reporting tlje 
.evidence given oi-ally in a court of justice. The m:igistrate is not obliged to take the 
notes himself; he is authorized l)y the statu~be^to cause it to be doiie Ijy another or othe|j^. 
It has not been the j)ractice so far as I know, in any court in Canada to take down 
i-fi/iatiiii ([uestion and answer in ordinary writing, and that could not be presunieJ to be, 
re<|uired. If it is not, but tlie notes are taki'n'iu narrative form, tlicir accural y depends 
'largely on the ability of the reporter hurriedly to a|iiireheiid the etlect of (|Ue;stion and 
answer and throw them together .so as pi^jierly to set down' the idea of tlie wilmss. Any 
system by which (luestion ami answer are given nrlnitini is certainly more likely to In- 
accurate than this method. notwith-Standing the chances of erroi' hrtiiifested liy Mr. Kwart. 
The short hiuid system of the reporter may be something wliich himself alone can inidei-- 
stand, it may be a system wliich is known to many, and it may be that his notes can be 
read by many. I think that we are not entitled to assume, for tlu- purpose of holding 
the conviction illegal, tliat in the ja-esent in.staiice it was a system umli'istood by th.r 
reporter.alone,.even if that assum|ition should jirojx-rly lead to that conclusion. 
' The use of short hand reporteis in tiie courts had been in vogue for' a considerable 

time in, more than one of the provinces when tht^ No|-th-\Vest Territories .\ct of IMtHO 
wds passed ; and vtlien Parlia'nieiit ])roviiled oiily for tlie taking of the notes " in writing," 
^without any further limitation of such a general word, it may be well understood to li.ive 
had in view a class or method of writing which was in such general use. 1 have felt the 
more satisfied in coming to tiiis conclusion, as it has not been sugges^'d that the 
prisoner has been ]iut under any (lisa({vaiitaj;e by the system adopted tV)r reporting the 
evidence' and proceedings, or that the reixirt ^ut the evideiu-e or proceedings i.s in any 
respect inaccui-ate. 

The ((u'estion of insanity is raised upon tliis ajipeal as a (|Uestion of fact only. Ni 
objection has been made to the charge of the magistrate to the juiy. The ]>rinciples lai(* 
down by the courts of l'[)per Canada, under the Act which authorized the j;iiiiiting of 
new trials" in criininal cases, and wTvitJiJiave been referred to by my brother Taylor, 
appear to, me to be tho.se which sjhould govern this court in hearing jiiid (leterniini|^4 
a))peals from convictions in the .North- West Territories upon ipiestions of fdfct, exce]it 
that it is hardly accurate to say that the court will not undertake to determine on whii 
side is the weight of evidence, bilt only if there is evidence to go to the Jury. T^ , 
hardly applies in a ease like the ptesent. The presumption of law is that the prisoi. i- 
is, and was, sane. The burden of, proof of insanity is upon the defence. MrXitijhteii.^ 
case, 10 CI. i' Fin. 204 ; lieijiiin \t Jituki-it, 3 C. it K. li^.') ; Jifii'ma v. Lai/lan, i Oo.\ C. C. 
149. Without evidence to go t6 the jury, the prisoner cannot be acquitted upon the 
plea of insanity. If there is in such a case to be any appeal after a conviction, it must 
- be on the ground that the evidence is so overv^helining in favor of the insanity of the 
prisoner .that the court will feel that there has been a miscarriage of justice — that apoor, i 
deluded, irresponsible being lias been adjuclged guilty "of that of which he could not be ( 
guilty if he were deprived of the power to reason upon the act complained oi, to deter- A 
mine by reason if it w^ right or wrong. 

Certainly, a new trial should not be granted if the evidence were such that the jurj 



5 



1 



• .. * 197 

I 

juld reasonably convict or ac<|uit. Mr. Leiiiieux laid great stress uihmi the fact that 

/ j!.he jury aceompcanied tlieir verdict with a reconiniendation to mercy, as sliowing that 

/ /they thouglit the prisoner insane. I cannot se(^ tliat any importance can )>e attached to 

/ /this. I liave re.id very carefuHy the report of the charge of the magistrate, and it 

/ ap|K'ars to liave hecn so dearly put that the jury could have no doubt of their duty iu 

/ cas<! they tliouglit tiie prisoner insajie when he counnitted the acts in ([ucstion. They 

.' could not have listened to that charge without understanding fully that to bring in a, 

I verdict of guilty was to declare enipliatically their dislielief in the insanity of the 

Jirisoner. The recommendation may be accounted for in many ways not connected at 

all with the question of th<? .sanity of the prisoner. ' \_ 

The stijiendiary magistrate adopts, in his charge to the jury, the te.-,t laid down in 
MiirXiiijhti'H's case, 10 CI. \- F. 204. Although this rule was laid down by the leading 
■ 1 judges of England, at the time, to the House of hord.s, it was not .so dcaie in any parti- 
cular case which was before that tribunal for adjudication, and it could hardly be 
considered as a decision absolutely binding upon any couri. I should consider this 
court fully justified in departing from it, if good ground were shown therefor, or, if, even 
without arguuient of coun.sel against it, it appeared to the court it.self to be improper'as 
applied to the facts of a particular case. In the pre.sent instance, counsel for flie pri- 
souer do not attehii)t to impugn the propriet)- of the rule, and in my opinion they could 
not suof^ssfully do so. It has never, .so,far as I can find, been overruled, though it may 
to somi" extent have l)een (lucstioui-d. This rule is, that " notwithstanding the party did 
the actVomplained of with a view, under the influence of insane delusion, of rcdnssing 
or rtivengiiig some supjio.sed grievance or inj\iry, or of producing some public benetit, he 
is nivert-heless jninishable accoiding to tlie nature of the crime committed, if he knew at 
the time of committing such crime that he acted contrary to law.' 

Mr. Justice ilaule, on the same occasion, |iuts it tjius : '• To render a ]ieison irres- 
ponsible for crime on account of unsoundness of mind, the unsoundness should, according 
to the law as it has long bec^n understood and held, be such asi renderetl hiin inca{>able 
of knowing right from wrong. " 

The argument for the insanity of the prisoner is leased to a certain extent on the 

idea that he was in such a state of mind that he did not know that the acts he was coni- 

■ mitting were^ rong : that lie fancied him.self inspired of Hea\ en, and acting under the 

direction of Heaven, and in a holy c-ause. It would be exceedingly dangerous to a<lmit 

the validity of such an argument fi>r adjudging an accused person insane, partiiularly 

wlitire the oilcm-e charged is of such a nature as that of which this prisoner i.s idon\icted. 

A nnvii who leads an aruied insurrection tloes so fpun- a desire for murdtr, rapine, 

robliery, or for jiersonal gain <.r advantage of some kind, or he does so in the belief that 

Jie has a righteous cause, grievances which he is entitled to take r.p arms to have 

edressed. In the latter case, if sincere,Mie believes it to be right to ilo so, that tlie law 

'■ (!o»l permits, may, even calls uiion liini, to do. so, and to ad judge a man insane Qiii that 

. round. Would lie to ojien the door to an ac(|uittal in every c-ase in which a nuui with au 

<ini'St belief iu his wrongs, and that they were sutticiently grievous to Warrant any m«an.S 

■^.secure their redress, should take U]i arms against the con..5titui<d authorities of' the 

;id. His action was «xceedingly rash and foolhardy, but he reasoned that he could 

*"yieve a sufficient success to extort something from the ( iovernnient, whether for him- 

*^''' or his followers. His actions were based oi; reason and not on insane delusion. 

^*'' It is true that there were sonie medical o)iinions that the prisoner was insane, based 

'"'i an account of his actions and his previous history, but the jury were not bound to 

pt sneh opinions. The jury had to listen to the grounds for the.se opinion.s, and to 

form their own judgment upon them. In my opinion, the evideiwe was such that the 

jury would not have been justified in any verdict than that which they gave ; but even 

if it I>e admitted that they might reasonably harve found in favor of the insanity of the 

Jirisoner, it cannot be said that they could not reasonably find him sane. 

I hesitate to add anytliing to the remarks of my brother Taylor upon the evidence 
■on the tjuestion of insanity. I have read over very carefully all the evidence that was 
laid before the jury, and I could say nothing that would more fully express the opiuicns 



-\ 



t 



198 



vil. 



1 have formed frqiii its perusal than wliat. is expressed by him. , . I 'aumi-e witli liiiii ah ^^ 
in sayin}(-.that tlii- prisoner has heen ahly and zealously dpfendp<l, and tlilvt notliinf; tlia t,^ 
. could a/isist his Case appears toJiive been left untouclied. If I eon 1(1 ia#6 any reason ton, 
; l)«lieve Ntli^t the jury, whether from passion or pi-ejudiye, or otherwise, had decided 'e 
- against the wei;rlit of tlie evidence u])on the piisoner's insanity, I should desire to tind n 
. that the Court lould so intci-pi-et the statute as to lie justified in causiin,' the ease to bo u 
laid befoi'e another juiy for their, eonsideration, as the only feelinf;s wi- can have towards 
a fellow creatiuy will) lias been deprived of the reason which places us iibove the brutes, 
are sincere pity and a desire to have some attempt made to r<-storf him to the full enjoy- 
ment of a souiid mind. •? 
The pris<jner is e.\ idciilly a man of moi>p than ordinary intelli;,'iMii(', who could have i- 
been of great service to those l!»f his race rn this country : and if he wen' insane, the > 
greate^^t service that tould be rendered to the country would be. that he should, if [mis- d , 
sibje, be restored to that condition of mind which would, enable hinf to use his mental e 
powers and his educati<ni to assist in iiromotin;; the interests of that im|iortant class in 3 
the community t') whii'h lie bcji)ii;,'s. It is with the deepest regret that I recognize that ( 
, ^the acts char.v>ed wi-re comn'itted wkhout any such justification, and that this t'ourt can- 
not in any way be justified in interfering. , 

In my judgment, the conviction must be confirmed., , 



/ 



/ 






v., 



C 



■y ,f 



wh; 



>risoi,.-r 
(Kjliteu'ii 



Nc 
klai<( 
fig of 

f.vcept ' 



-I 



T»!> 



r 



APPEAL TO THE PRIA Y COUNCIL. 

p. ('. No. 1743. 

CEltTI FIED copy of a ri>port of a Coinudttei' of tfir llonoridili' the Privy Couiu'ily 
approved by Ilia ExeelUitcy the d'orermir (jeueral hi Conncil. on lh>' 2'i(h Sfpt. 18S5. 



Thp foniniittec of tlie Privy Council iiave had uiuU-r consideration a petition from — - 
Louis Rid, now undi-r sentence of death at Regina, in the North-West Territories of 
Canada, tliroui;li his counsel, Messrs. Leiiiieux and Fitzjiatrick, uskiii); that such steps 
nuiy he adopted hy the (lovernor (ieneral in Council as will allow him the necessary time 
tfi procure an appeal to the Quettu's Most Kxceilent Majesty in Council from the senteivce 
aiid judgment rendered in his case at Reiiina. 

The Minister of Justice to whom tlie petition was inferred foi- immediate action, 
reports with ivsjiect to the a]i]>lication for delay in order to allow the prisonei: time to 
appeal to the Privy Council, that the Maj;istrate has ])osti«oned the execution until the 
16tli of ( )ctol)er, and he .recommends that Yoilr Kxcellency l)e moved- to comiuunicate 
with the Ri;;ht Honoralile the Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies with a view, if 
possilile, to secure an early meeting of the Judicial Comiiiittee of the Privy Council iii 
order that the (piestion as to whether leave to appeal in this matter, will lie granted or 
not. shall he determined at the earliest po.ssil>le time. _ . 

The Connnittee concur in the above recoiuineudation of the ^liuister of Justice, ajul 
they submit the same for approval. 

(Sijyied) John J. Mc(4ke. 

, ' C'-rk, Privy C{'uneil. 



P 

go 

oh; 



IN THE PRIVY COINCIL. 

Ill appeal from the Court of Queen's Pencil for the Province of Manitoba, 

l)<iminion of Canada. 



Lolls PuKi., 

imd , 
The QiKKX, 



coif Queen's Most Excellent Majesty in Council. 



Appulhint. 



Nf.sjiiindent. 



''""He humble jietition of Louis liiel sheweth, as follows : — _ 

^^'•'t. On the JOth, -.'Ist, lil'nd, L':?rd, iMtli and L'5th days of July last, your [>etitioner 
liavc^d f,„. ^\^^, (.,-ii„f, of tresison Itefore a stipendiary magistrate and a justice of the 
, A'itli the intervention ofvi jury of six persons in the North-West Territor1<;s_of the 
Doiiiinion of Canada, and having l)eeu f<miid guilty has been sentenced to death. 

2nd. \our petitioner caused ail appeal to be taken to the court of Queen's Beiieh 
for the Province of Manitoba, and that cixirt lias'coiifirmed the sentence afoij^said. 

3rd. Your petitioner feels aggrieved by the proceedings of the said courts for the 
following, amongst other reasons : 

1st. The said stipendiary maj^istrate and justice had no jurisdiction to try Your 
petitioner for the crime' aforesaid. 

2iid. If they liad jurisdiction in any case of treason, there was not in tlie case of your 



\ 



t 



200 - t,a« 

. • ■ ^ . . ; . •••jt 

■ petitiout r, any indictineiit preferred by any grand jury or inquisition fbund liy an>,. 

coroner's inquest aj^ainst your petitioner. t 5 > 

, ;$rd. An information was laid aj,'ainst your pctitio^xer, but even if a niei'fl inforniatioi) 

was rtutficient, that in tlic case of your petitio'ner was taken V>efore tlie stipendiary 

magistrate alone wlio had no jurisdiction at all. 

4th. Tlie evidence at the, trial was not taken down by. tlie stipendiary mnftistrate, 
and by hini.c.iuKed to be taken down in writinj;, as directed l>y tlie Statute in that behalf. 

T'th. t'pon the a])peaf to the Court of (^ut-en'.s; ISencli, your )M'titioner was not per- 
mitted to be present nor were any of tlie jiajM-rs nr the record projierly before the Court. 

tkh. The trial of your petinoner and the cilt-unistances out of which it arose art? „ 
deemed by the people' of Caniula to lie matters of no ordinary iin|)ortance, have divided 
the population into two opposinji jiartii-s, and it is essential not 'only upon these ^{rounds, 
but also from the fact tiiat a latue ninnl.er of trials urisinj^ ojit of the.same circumstances 
are being had Ijefore tlie same functionaries that the, question rai.sed liy.this petition 
should be ailjiidiiated an<l settled. - ■ \ 

• . The iietitioner must tlieiet'nre pray : . ^ . 

1st. .That ^ our .Majesty will be j^racioiisly plen.sed to order that your p^til^iiner may 
have special lea\e to ai)|icMl~iind be at libei'ty to' enter and prosecute liis up|)eal from the 
aforesaid .sentence. and judgment respectively, and that the said stipeiuliary magistrate 
and j ustiee may bejordered to transmit forthwith the transcript of t fie proceedings and 
evidence in the matter to the Privy Council olhc<'. or tliat Your .Majesty may Iiegiaciou.sly 



)th 



]>leaspd to make such further or 
just and proper 

And your petitioner will exer ] 



Quebec, Se])t<-liiber lllli, lS>.'l. 
Title copy. 

* Cms. FiT/.p.\TRn kJ 



to \, 



Majesty in Ciuincil may apjiear 



Ac, 



(Signed) 



F. X Lkmikiy^v 

ClIS. FiTZI'.VTUirK. 



Krt. 24:5. 



(COPY) ' 

C.VN.Ml.V. 
COLOXKL STAXLEV TO TMK DKI'fTV-i.oVKUNoli. 



Downing Street. 

. ' ■ ■1\\\\ October, iff 

Sln,T— With reference to my telegr.iiii iVf the "jL'nd iii.'.tant, I have the lidiinr tor' 

mit to you t!ie aecompanying cnpies of the jiidgineiit of the Lorrls of the judicial cif''- 

tae of the Pii\y Council, on the jietition for leave in iqipeal of I/iuis Uit-l. r*' 



I ha\e, itc. 



Tlie Deputy-) iovernor. 



(Signed,) Jioiii;iiT (1. \\'. IIkkui'J') ' 

■ 'A ■■ feh's 



C 



Judgment of the Lords of the Judicial coiniiiittee of (he Privy Council on ,.. 
ti>n^of Louis Kiel, from tlie Court of (/ueeirs liencli for the Pro\ ince of Manitoba. 

Prksent : ' 

' The Lord Chancellor. 
1 . ■ . . Lortl Fitzgerald; 

Lord Monkswell. 
~ Lord Holiliou.se. 

( . Lord Hsher. 

Sir Barnes Pea{;o<!k". ' 



r- 

201 

d in , 
Territories of Canada, and convicted of liigJf treason, and sentenced to death, for leave 



Tliis is a petition of Louis Riel, tried in /July last at Regina, in tlie North-West 

licH treaso 



^to appeal a-jainst an order of the Queen's Bench of Manitolia, confirming that conviction. 

It'is t4ie usual rule of this committee not to grant leave to appeal in criminal cas^, 
except where some clear, departure from the rcrjuirements of justice is alleged to have 
taken place. Wliether in this case the prerogatives to grant an ap]>eal still exists, as 
their Lordships have not heard that (juestion argued, they desire neitliertD attinu nor to 
denj', hut they are clearly of 0]>iiiion that in this case leave should not he given. 

The petitioner was tried under the provisions of an Act passed hy the Canadian Legis- 
lature, jiroviding for (lie adniinisti'ation of criminal justice for those j)ortions of the Xorth- 
West Territory of Canaihi, in whidi the offence charged against the petitioner is alleged 
to have heen committed. No ipiestions has lieen raised that the facts as alleged were not 
■ proved to have taken place, nor was it denied Ix^fove tlie original triliunal, or hefore the 
Court of .•\j>peal in Manitolia, that the acts attrihuted to the petitioner amounted to the 
crime of high treason. ' , . 

The defence upon The facts sought fo he e.stablislied before the jury was, that the 
petitioner was not responsihie for his acts hy reasou of mental infirmity. 

The jury hefore whom the petitioner was tried negatived that defence, aiid no argu- 
uientLhas heen )>resented to their Lordships directed to .sliow that that finding was other- 
wise Hmibcon^^et. Oi the ohjections raised on the. face of the petition two points only 
seem toTie capahle of jilausihle or, indeed, iutelligilite expression, and they have heen 
urged hefoie their Lordshi])s with as mucliTTirce as was possible, and as fully and com- 
j)letely in their Lonlshiji's o]iiiii<iu as it would have heen if lea\e to appeal had l)een 
'granted, and ihey have Keen dealt with hy the judgments of the Court of Ajipeal in 
Manitoba with a patience, learning and ability that leaves \ ery little to bt^ said upon 
them. 

The first point is tliat^he Act itself under which the petitioner was tried was ulfra 
>ri/vj< the Dominion Parliament to enact. That I'arliament derived its authority for the 
jMlssing of that statute from the Imperial Statute, M and :?.t Vic. Chap. 2S, whicl 
enacted that tlie Parliament of Canada may from time to tiine make provision for the 
administration, peace, oi'der, and good government of any territory not for the time 
being inchiiled in any province. 

It is not deiii«l that the ]ilace in ijuestion was' one in respect of which the Parlia- 
ment of Canada was authorized to make such provision, but it appears to be suggcstetU, 
\tliat,any provision ditl'crring from tlie provisions which in this country have been ijiade 
fm- admini.L peai-e, order an<l good governi'nent canuiU, as matters of law, be 

provisions for peaci-, order and good goveiiiinent in the territories to which the Statute 
relates, and further that, if a (.'ourt of law shoidil conit^ to the conclusion that a (larticular 
enaV-tmenty was not calculated as matter of fact and policy to .secure |it!ace, Order, and 
gtx)(l goverinae.nt, thut tliev would be entitled to regard any Statute directed to those 
'objects, liut which a Court should think likely to fail of tliat pSeet, as iiftni rir-ei and 
U'Vontl tlie competency ot'the Dominion Parliament to enact. 

■ 'i'lieir Loiilsliiiis are of ojiinion that there is not <lie least colour for such a 
contention. " The words of the Statute are apt to authorize the utmost discretion of 
enactment for the attainment of the objects pointed to. Theyaie words under which the 
widest de.parture from Criminal proceduiv as it is fctiown and practised in this country 
have been authorized in Her ^Majesty's Indian Empire. 

Forms of procedure unknown to the Knglish common laws have there been esta- 
' blished and acted u)>oii, and to throw the least doubt upon the validity of jxiwers con- 
veyed by those words would be of widely mischievous consecjuence. , 

There was indjbed a contention upon the construction of the Canadian Statute, 43 
Vict., Cliaj). 'Iri, tliat liigli ti-eason was not included in the words : '• any other crimes," 
Imt it is too ilear for argument, even without the assistance afibrded by the 10th sub- 
section, that the Dominion Legislature contemplated high treason as • couiprel\gaded 
within the langiiage employed. 

The second point suggested assumes the validity of the Act, but is founded upon the 

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202 

3i8.suinption that the Act has not been complied with. -By the 7th sub-section of the 7<tth^ 
section it is provi<le(*that tlie magistrate shall take or cause tojue tiiken in writing full 
notes of evidence and other proceodiuf^s thereat, and it is sugj^ested that this provision 
haus not been complied with, l)ecause tliouj^h no complaint is made of inaccuracy or mis- 
take, it is said that the notes were taken by a shorthand writer under the authoi-ity of 
the magistniite, an.<l liy a subsequent process extended int"K ordinary writinf; intelligible, 
to all. Their Lordships desire to expres.s no opinjon what would have been the effect if 
the provision of the statute had not been eom]>lied with, liecau.se it is unnecessary to con- 
sider whether the provision is directory only, or whether the failure to comply with it 
would be ground for error, inasmuch as they are of opinion that the taking full notes of 
the evidence in shorthand was a causing to be taken in writing full notes of the evidence, 
md a literal compliance therefore with the Statute, _^-^ 

^ Tlieir Lordshiji's will, therefore, humbly advise Her Majesty that leave should not 
be granted to prosecute this appeal. 



tO|» 

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PETITION FOR A MEDICAL COMMISSION. 

T. C. 2020. • . • 

[Trnii>ihili(iii\ . ^' ' ' _, 

TO HIS EXCELLENCY ■ , 

The KI.M.T H0N0H.U.LE HKNKV carles KEITII PETTY-FITZMArRICE, MARQCIS OP 
LASSnOWXK, (10VERN0R-«;ESEUAI. of THE DOMINION OF CANADA, iVC; XC, .kC. 

Tli<- P.'titioii of F. X. Lfiiiicux. ■idvo.iitc, of tlift fity of Quclx'C, , 

HuliiUv icpri'seiiJs ; 

L • ■ . ' • 

That lu- lu.s acted as one of tl.e Counsel of LouLs Kiel, accused and convicted ot the 
crime of lii-di treason, at Re>;inii, duiiiii? tlie <»urse of the month of Au!,'ust hist ; 

That at the time of the trial of L,.uis Kiel it was estal.lished that the latter l.ad 
already l.een contine.l f.n- insanity in certain lunatic asylums viz ; '" l--"-t. "'*';;*• 
LonKue-Pointe asylum, at M.mtreal in ISTfi, at the Beaiyort asylun,, t.»uel.ec m 1^..», 
inahiiiatic asvluin at Washington, I'nited States. . , . , i.. i ...„i 

That credil.le witnesses, amongst whom Uevd. Fathers Vn.lre -"'I'to"'''';""'' '""» 
Hon. C>rles N^lin, and others, have proved, at the trial, that Louis R.el, I'-c ;eto.^ 
du.-l»6 and =.ft..r th« rising in the Xorth-West. to their own kuowled-e, «'^';" ^"''"/^, »' 

truly lJt^lc^i^-«5^^ tlia-t K.t«sl wtt« ikot r«!Si>€>i»«il*le for Uii* M.otic>i»s tlui-inf? *"» ttiii« .».li-ea.rty 




tn«l C,'l«